Lawrie Philpott of Philpott Black and host of Leadership Listening talks with Nik Gowing, veteran BBC World News presenter and author of Thinking the Unthinkable, about leadership, disruption, and a darkening world.
Nik shares his core research findings — that most leaders are dangerously unprepared for the speed and complexity of modern disruption — and maps out his prescient warnings from 2009 and 2018. He argues the world is entering a period of fundamental instability driven by AI-driven unemployment, geopolitical rupture, weakened institutions, and the collapse of long-held assumptions about prosperity. He calls on leaders to think the unthinkable, break from zombie orthodoxies, and upskill for an era where traditional playbooks no longer apply.
Together they examine why politicians and civil servants struggle to speak truth to power, how Trump has distorted truth and inspired imitators globally, the concept of corporate mendacity, and the leadership lessons embedded in Nik's most memorable journalistic moments — including the fall of the Berlin Wall and the announcement of Princess Diana's death. They close with what universal leadership traits will matter most for the rest of this decade.
00:00 Intro
00:53 Introducing Nik Gowing
03:21 A Dark And Sinister Prognosis
07:44 The End Of Stability And The Pinball World
10:19 Leaders Failing To Grip The Enormity
13:19 Upskilling For A New Reality
16:24 Civil Service And Public Sector Failure
17:26 Thinking The Unthinkable In Government
20:11 Trump, DOGE And Decimated Public Life
22:39 Zelensky As A Leadership Model
24:35 Leaders On Camera — Credibility Under Pressure
27:12 Media Adversarialism And Being First Fast Flawed
29:13 Leadership Fitness And The 2500-Hour Year
33:08 Bravery, Opportunism And Real-Time Leadership
36:16 Flattery As Diplomacy — The Washington Weekend
37:09 Post-Truth And The Distortion Of Facts
41:39 Corporate Mendacity And Deliberate Distraction
45:28 Most Memorable Journalistic Moments
47:32 The Fall Of The Berlin Wall
48:56 Announcing The Death Of Princess Diana
52:28 Universal Leadership Traits Across Cultures
57:37 Cynical Or Hopeful About The Future
59:25 Closing Questions
Since 2014 Nik has been founder and director of the Thinking the Unthinkable project - https://thinkunthink.org/ Using interviews with, and access to, the highest levels of business, public service and governments the ongoing and dynamic project reveals candidly why so many leaders at every level face new difficulties adapting to the scale of unthinkables and unpalatables.
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Podcast episode: 16
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