Explore every episode of the podcast It Was What It Was : The Football History Podcast

Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper begin a four-part series marking 30 years since Arsène Wenger’s arrival at Arsenal, framing him—alongside David Dein—as a key catalyst for the Premier League’s shift toward foreign managers, multicultural squads, and modern nutrition and sports science. They trace Wenger’s roots in rural, war-scarred Alsace on the French-German border: his parents’ hard-working life, his father’s forced Nazi conscription, the Catholic village culture, and Wenger’s intense, self-aware obsession with football. The episode explores how he learned the game through unsupervised street football and bistro conversations, a serious illness at 14, and his desire to escape village life. Wenger’s breakthrough came at 19 after being spotted in a heavy defeat and joining Mutzig, leading to university studies in Strasbourg, a stint learning English in Cambridge, a squad role in Strasbourg’s 1979 title win, and an early move into coaching—already using a psychiatrist with youth players.

00:00 Wenger Obsession Intro

01:23 Why Wenger Changed England

03:41 Alsace War Shadow

07:30 Village Roots and Work Ethic

10:49 French Football Culture Explained

16:18 Street Football and Brother Guy

18:59 Faith Philosophy and Le Professor

24:32 Illness Growth and Escape

27:19 Bistro Lessons La Croix d'Or

28:53 Wine and Bistro Roots

29:37 Bar Talk and Escape

30:09 Football Dreams in Dittlingen

33:00 Mutzig Breakthrough

34:13 Max Hild Mentor

36:44 Dancing and Philosophy

39:55 University and Class Divide

42:10 Strasbourg Squad Years

43:29 Cambridge English Leap

46:47 Coaching Begins at Strasbourg

47:31 Total Football Influences

50:11 Holistic Coaching Mindset

51:30 Wrap Up and Next Episode

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Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson examine Kwame Nkrumah’s state-backed club Real Republicans and why it became widely unpopular despite winning trophies, after being created by taking top players from existing clubs without compensation and reinforcing regional and ethnic tensions, particularly in Ashanti. They track criticism in the Evening News and Ashanti Pioneer, Kotoko’s protests, and the club’s lack of public support even at its peak. The episode argues the project nonetheless helped the Black Stars by building cohesion, highlighted by a 3–3 draw with Real Madrid in 1962 and Ghana’s AFCON triumphs in 1963 and 1965 under C.K. Gyamfi, with key players drawn from Republicans. The discussion then links football to Nkrumah’s growing authoritarianism, economic strain from cocoa price swings, and his 1966 CIA-backed coup, after which Real Republicans were dissolved, while Ghana’s club and national successes continued briefly before declining with reduced state support.

00:00 Why Fans Reject Republicans

01:33 Nkrumah Builds a Model Club

05:09 Player Raids Spark Backlash

09:05 Trophies Without Love

16:32 Politics and Regional Resentment

21:34 Cocoa Prices and Ashanti Nationalism

25:41 Break and Reset

26:07 Golden Era for Black Stars

26:55 Real Madrid Draw and FIFA Fight

29:24 World Cup Qualifiers Reality Check

30:12 FIFA Spots Ghana

32:08 Real Republicans Core

33:18 Baba Yara Tragedy

34:00 1963 AFCON Triumph

36:03 Ethiopia Tangent

41:10 1965 AFCON Away Win

43:38 Ghana Legacy Debate

45:37 Nkrumah Turns Authoritarian

50:27 Coup Ends Era

51:37 Aftermath and Wrap

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Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson discuss how Kwame Nkrumah used football to build Ghana’s national identity and promote Pan-African unity after independence (1957) and becoming a republic (1960). They trace Ghana’s colonial background as the Gold Coast, Nkrumah’s education and political radicalization in London and the US, his leadership of the CPP, and the push to independence amid postwar unrest and cocoa blight riots. Nkrumah backed football as a tool for unity, sponsoring the Nkrumah Gold Cup and founding the African Club Championships (Osagyefo Cup), a precursor to today’s African Champions League. The episode then profiles Ghana star C.K. Gyamfi (“Magic Feet”), his rise through local clubs, a 1951 UK tour, and a breakthrough spell at Fortuna Düsseldorf in 1960 before returning to play for Ghana.

00:00 Nkrumah and Football Nationhood

03:04 Ghana Under Empire

04:53 Nkrumah Abroad and Ideas

06:38 London Debates and Mentors

12:33 Return and Rising Unrest

15:15 CPP and Road to Independence

18:43 Republic and Cult of Leader

20:05 Sport as National Unity

23:11 Pan African Tournaments Begin

25:30 Gold Cup Wins and Wider Wave

26:53 Osagyefo Cup Club Vision

27:13 Osagyefo Cup Origins

27:58 First African Club Final

28:17 Unity Through Football

30:01 Ghana Golden Era Focus

31:07 Meet CK Gyamfi

33:14 Early Life And Clubs

35:00 Mysterious Dwarves Tangent

38:41 Kotoko And UK Tour

41:55 Germany With Fortuna

48:06 Called Back To Ghana

49:31 Part One Wrap Up

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Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper conclude their three-part series on Kevin Keegan by tracing his managerial career and the idealism behind his “why not?” philosophy. They cover his post-playing retreat in Marbella, a 1991 roadside attack that sparked unfounded rumours, and his surprise return to rescue near-bankrupt Newcastle in 1992 despite having barely watched football. Keegan’s early chaos, promotion to the Premier League, and “entertainers” era are explored, including the Andy Cole sale and his famous address to angry fans. The episode revisits the 1995–96 title collapse, his exit amid Newcastle’s flotation plans, spells at Fulham and England, a steadier period at Manchester City, and a final, acrimonious Newcastle return under Mike Ashley, ending with reflections on his legacy and farewell tour.

00:00 Dreamers Welcome

01:39 Marbella Escape

02:49 Celebrity Golf Circuit

04:52 M25 Attack Rumors

08:10 Lightbulb Moment

09:34 Sir John Hall Calls

14:02 Return of the King

17:03 Unprepared New Boss

20:29 Great Escape Finale

22:13 Promotion Blueprint

24:53 Entertainers Era

26:32 Newcastle Goldfish Bowl

28:41 Keegan in the City

30:22 Keegan Tea Reception

32:14 Andy Cole Fallout

33:24 Calming The Mob

36:31 Title Charge Collapse

39:03 Shearer And Glory

41:43 Flotation Clash Exit

44:52 Fulham And England Call

47:24 Poisoned Chalice England

52:56 City Comeback Era

55:36 Third Newcastle Breakdown

58:54 Final Farewell Legacy

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Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue their Kevin Keegan series, following his 1977 move from Liverpool to Hamburg for a far higher salary and the difficult start marked by teammate resentment, managerial upheaval, a humiliating Super Cup loss at Anfield, and an eight-week ban after he struck a defender in a friendly at Lübeck. They chart his turnaround under Branko Zebec as Hamburg win the Bundesliga in 1978–79, Keegan becomes a German celebrity, learns the language, and wins the Ballon d’Or twice, before turning down Juventus and returning to England with an underwhelming Southampton spell and a breakdown with Lawrie McMenemy. The episode also covers Keegan’s burdened England captaincy amid missed World Cups, including a beating by Yugoslav police, threats in Belfast, Euro 1980, and injury-hit World Cup 1982, before his high-profile move to Second Division Newcastle, the lift he gives the city, and his retirement after a sobering FA Cup loss to Liverpool.

00:00 Keegan Cashes In

01:06 Hamburg Move Explained

01:39 The Bubble Perm Era

03:40 Frosty Dressing Room

06:36 Lübeck Punch Up

09:46 Backlash and Doubts

10:58 Turning Point Return

12:01 Zebec Sparks Revival

14:03 Pop Star in Germany

17:20 Ballon d'Or Debate

21:12 European Cup Heartbreak

23:14 Shock Southampton Switch

25:07 Saints Reality Check

27:22 Keegan Takes Criticism Personally

28:27 England Captain Burden

30:38 Poland Wembley Heartbreak

31:47 Belgrade Police Beating

34:20 Euro 1980 Chaos

35:38 Thatcher Photo Fallout

36:51 IRA Threats Belfast

40:28 World Cup 1982 Injury

43:50 Newcastle Homecoming Move

46:52 Robson Drops Keegan

49:31 Keegan Lifts Newcastle

55:12 Lawrenson Moment Retirement

55:54 Helicopter Farewell Wrap

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*The full three-part series is available on Patreon now*

Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper pay tribute to Kevin Keegan, who died in July aged 75, reflecting on his rare charisma, self-awareness, and ability to connect with people, as well as his status as the only British player to win the Ballon d’Or twice. They trace his working-class upbringing in Armthorpe near Doncaster, his family’s mining and Labour roots, and formative influences like Sister Mary Oliver, who encouraged his football. The episode follows Keegan’s unlikely early path—rejected by Doncaster and Coventry, starting at Scunthorpe—through his move to Liverpool under Bill Shankly, where his fitness, motivation, and partnership with John Toshack helped drive major success, alongside growing fame via endorsements and Superstars. They end with Keegan’s decision to leave as Liverpool approach European glory.

00:00 Tribute to Keegan

01:09 Charisma and Kindness

06:19 Roots in Doncaster

09:14 Mining Heritage

15:22 School and Sweetheart

22:21 Rejected Then Spotted

24:28 Scunthorpe Breakthrough

28:18 Move to Liverpool

30:03 Negotiating His Worth

33:34 Late Arrival Debut

35:22 Toshack Partnership

35:47 Sweat Box Fitness

37:10 Telepathy Test Hoax

40:12 Shankly Mind Games

41:46 Celebrity Endorsements

47:26 Superstars Bike Crash

49:48 Trophies And Turning Point

54:44 Shankly Leaves Fallout

57:34 European Peak Exit Plan

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The fourth and final episode in Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper's Total Football series explores Ajax’s remarkable success under Stefan Kovacs and the Netherlands’ unforgettable 1974 World Cup campaign.

Kovacs inherited Rinus Michels’ European champions but allowed the side’s fluid, player-led style to evolve. Ajax continued to win major honours, including two European Cups, but growing player power and Johan Cruyff’s influence created tensions beneath the success. As internal divisions deepened, Kovacs left, Cruyff departed for Barcelona, and Ajax’s golden era began to unravel.

Enter the 1974 World Cup. Despite a difficult qualification process and a squad shaped by rivalries, Michels and Cruyff assembled a side that thrilled the world. They swept past Argentina, overcame Brazil in a fiercely contested encounter, and brought Total Football to its global peak.

But in the final against hosts West Germany, an early lead was not enough. Off-pitch distractions, overconfidence and German resilience contributed to a famous 2–1 defeat.

The Dutch did not lift the World Cup, but their legacy was greater than a single trophy: Total Football transformed how the modern game is played.

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In part three of our Total Football series, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper arrive at Ajax’s golden age.

They explore Johan Cruyff’s development: the precocious teenager shaped by Ajax, Vic Buckingham and Rinus Michels; a player whose extraordinary understanding of space, timing and tactics made him the ultimate expression of individuality within a system.

The episode unpicks how Ajax’s 4-3-3 worked in practice. Positional rotations, an aggressive offside trap, collective pressing and the instinctive relationships built through years of playing together.

Jonathan also examines the uncomfortable questions around fitness, sports science and alleged stimulant use in the era, before charting Ajax’s first European Cup triumph in 1971 and the arrival of Ștefan Kovács after Michels’ departure for Barcelona.

This is the story of how a brilliant group of players, led by Cruyff, turned a tactical idea into the most influential team in European football.

You can listen to all the Total Football episodes early right now, here on Patreon. Enjoy.

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*You can listen to the full episode on our Patreon*

Rob Draper hosts a bonus edition of It Was What It Was with Jamie Carragher stepping in to pay tribute to the late great Franco Baresi .

Carragher explains why Baresi’s name is passed down through generations, calls him the greatest defender he’s ever seen, and hails Sacchi’s AC Milan as the greatest team until Guardiola’s Barcelona, with Baresi and Maldini central to a back four that revolutionised modern football through pressing, a high line and the shift away from the sweeper system.

They discuss Baresi’s unique blend of sweeper elegance and aggressive defending in a back four, his extraordinary return from a knee injury for the 1994 World Cup final against Romario, and how his football brain overcame a lack of height. Carragher also shares meeting Baresi at a Milan derby and showing his signed Baresi shirts.

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In part two of our Total Football series, Jonathan and Rob explore the ideas behind football’s great tactical revolution.

From the structuralist architecture and social change of 1960s Amsterdam to Johan Cruyff’s place within a collective system, they trace how a new way of thinking shaped the Dutch game.

But it's not all Ajax. Focus shifts to Rotterdam and Feyenoord: Ernst Happel’s 4-3-3, their landmark 1970 European Cup win, and the overlooked tactical breakthrough that helped pave the way for Ajax and Cruyff.

Want to listen to the whole Total Football series now? Sign up to our Patreon for full access.

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In the first episode of a new four-part series, Jonathan and Rob examine the origins of Total Football - and why it is far more than simply slick passing or players swapping positions.

They explore the overlooked influence of English coach Vic Buckingham at Ajax, the role of Rinus Michels in shaping the philosophy, and the tactical shift from individual battles to coordinated systems.

There's why Dutch football’s late professionalisation made it a laboratory for new ideas; how advances in fitness made pressing possible; and why similar thinking was developing simultaneously in Soviet football under Valeriy Lobanovskyi.

This is the story of the conditions that made Total Football possible - before Johan Cruyff became its greatest expression.

Rob and Jonathan will be back next week for part two. Sign up to our Patreon to get early-access to every episode right now.

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Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by special guest Jordi Cruyff for the first episode in a new series on Total Football: its origins, its legacy, and one of its key architects, Johan Cruyff.

Who better than Jordi to reflect on his father's footballing influences and legacy? Beginning with his upbringing in Amsterdam, the hardship that shaped his ambition, and the profound influence of Rinus Michels on his development, Jordi also shares personal insight into Johan’s personality: stubborn, curious, challenging and, of course, never afraid to go against the grain.

The conversation explores Cruyff’s football philosophy in detail - his attacking mindset, positional ideas, emphasis on angles and intelligence, and refusal to compromise on style. Jordi also retells the story of being named Jordi in Franco-era Spain, a moment that captured his father’s defiant spirit and deep connection with Catalonia.

Rob, Jonathan and Jordi look at Johan’s transformational impact on Barcelona, the 1992 European Cup, his influence on Pep Guardiola, and how Cruyff’s ideas continue to shape elite football - from La Masia to the modern Premier League.

Rob and Jonathan will be back next week for a dive into the origins of Total Football itself; the first in a new four-part series. Sign up to our Patreon to get early-access to every episode.

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In World Cup final week, we just had to ask Jonathan and Rob to decide on the best World Cup finals of all time - and they certainly delivered.

From Uruguay in 1930 to Qatar in 2022, there's no better way to whet your appetite for Sunday evening than by taking a trip down memory lane with the guys.

From the drama of that very first final in 1930, to the political tension and selection intrigue of Hungary’s defeat to Italy in 1938, they trace how the World Cup final quickly became a stage for far more than just football.

Along the way they revisit the heartbreak of the 1950 Maracanazo, the tactical and cultural significance of West Germany’s win over the Netherlands in 1974, and the extraordinary scale of the 1954 Miracle of Bern, when Hungary’s great side were denied by West Germany. They also reflect on the modern classic of Argentina v France in 2022.

Will we have another classic on our hands in 2026?

00:00 Uruguay 4–2 Argentina (1930)

17:45 West Germany 2–1 Netherlands (1974)

30:15 Uruguay 2–1 Brazil (1950)

40:55 Italy 4–2 Hungary (1938)

47:50 Argentina 3–3 France (2022)

54:55 West Germany 3–2 Hungary (1954)

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Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper pick their favourite World Cup quarterfinals while previewing the upcoming last-eight: Portugal’s 5–3 comeback against North Korea at Goodison Park in 1966, highlighting Eusébio’s peak display, disputed refereeing, and the enduring Middlesbrough bond with the North Korean team; Germany–Argentina in 2006 as a pivotal step in Klinsmann’s cultural and tactical reset with Löw, Lehmann’s sock note in the shootout, and debate over Pekerman’s substitutions; and Argentina–Netherlands in 2022, remembered amid Grant Wahl’s death, for Messi’s pass, a record 18 yellows, a late Weghorst equaliser from a worked free kick, and a combustible shootout and aftermath. Wilson also covers Italy–Spain in 1934 as Mussolini’s World Cup’s key test and Draper adds Italy–Brazil 1982 and France–Brazil 1986 as defining classics.

00:00 Quarterfinal Classics Setup

00:47 Portugal vs North Korea 1966

03:40 Goodison Shock and Comeback

08:32 Eusebio Takes Over

10:10 Legacy and Middlesbrough Bond

16:19 Germany vs Argentina 2006

17:20 Klinsmann Revolution Explained

23:27 Match Drama and Lehmann Note

26:11 Argentina vs Netherlands 2022

30:33 Battle of Lusail Chaos

34:48 Penalties And Tragedy

36:04 Mussolini World Cup Clash

41:41 Replay And Brutality

42:58 England Debate Sunderland Joke

44:43 Rossi Sinks Brazil 1982

49:50 Romance Dies Guardiola Inspired

51:57 France Brazil 1986 Classic

57:43 Shootout Controversy Carlos Story

01:00:31 Legacy And Wrap Up

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Throughout the World Cup Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are recording weekly live Q&As, exclusively for our Patreon subscribers.

This week, all eyes were on England's win over DR Congo, sparking a debate on their reliance on Harry Kane. A worry, or a strength? There's a look at Marcelo Bielsa's Uruguay, a debate on what's happened to Germany, and so much more in this week's World Cup mailbag.

Want in? Then all you need to do is head over to www.patreon.com/ItWas and sign up for £4.99 a month. That'll get you access to Rob and Jonathan's live Q&As and a whole host of bonus content, including:

• The World Cup Collection - dissecting every tournament since 1930.
• Retro Magazine Collection - flicking through the archives of classic football culture.
• Lots of bonus, one-off IWWIW specials.
• Plus, you'll become part of our growing IWWIW community on Patreon.

Sign up today to hear the full episode - and we'll see you on Patreon. Thanks for listening!

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To listen to the full four-part series instantly, subscribe to our Patreon where listeners can enjoy ad-free listening, our World Cup Wednesdays, bonus editions and live Q&A episodes.

Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson conclude their four-part series on England’s 1966 World Cup win, picking up from the semi-final against Portugal and Eusébio, where Alf Ramsey sticks with Geoff Hurst over the media-favoured Jimmy Greaves and England’s wingless 4-1-3-2 thrives, with Bobby Charlton scoring twice and Jack Charlton’s handball leading to a late penalty. They then set up the final against West Germany, including Ramsey’s instruction for Charlton to sit deeper and nullify Franz Beckenbauer, before revisiting a disjointed 4–2 match shaped by England’s direct play, West Germany’s controversial equaliser, Hurst’s debated goal off the bar, and his hat-trick. The episode also explores Ramsey’s vindication, England’s fitness and planning, and the broader cultural context of Swinging London, post-imperial Britain, and the night of celebrations after victory.

00:00 Doubting Ramsey

00:23 Series Setup

01:04 Semifinal Stakes

02:07 Bobby Charlton Anxiety

05:13 Greaves Or Hurst

07:12 Wingless Wonders Win

08:57 Charlton Double

11:44 Penalty Scare

12:50 Charlton Family Duty

14:53 1966 Life Off Pitch

17:47 Cinema And Trauma

20:13 Final Plan Mark Beckenbauer

22:20 Final Rewatch Context

24:03 Targeting Tilkowski

25:07 Final Goals Breakdown

26:26 German Equaliser Debate

28:13 Ramsey Team Talk Myth

29:26 Ramsey Mind Games

30:08 Fitness Wins Extra Time

30:34 Was It Over The Line

32:52 Pitch Invaders Fourth Goal

33:48 Hurst Becomes Immortal

35:01 Planning Versus Flair

36:52 Ramsey Vindicated

40:19 War Memory And Germany

43:05 Swinging London Soundtrack

45:19 Post Imperial Cool Britannia

50:48 Football Enters Mainstream

54:07 Night Of Celebration

57:05 Legacy And Farewell

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Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson continue their series on how England won the 1966 World Cup by focusing on the quarter-final against Argentina, presented as the tournament’s key and most controversial test. They explain Alf Ramsey’s tactical preparation, including hiding his 4-1-3-2 “wingless” system and replacing the injured Jimmy Greaves with the more aerially suited Geoff Hurst. The episode traces Ramsey’s lessons from England’s 1964 South American trip, where Argentina’s pragmatic defensive approach and man-marking shaped his thinking, then sets the fraught 1966 backdrop: referee paranoia, Argentina’s internal chaos and recent coup, and a Wembley training dispute caused by greyhound racing. They dissect Antonio Rattín’s baffling dismissal amid language barriers and unclear bookings, the ugly atmosphere, and England’s 1–0 win through Hurst, before covering the aftermath, including Ramsey’s “animals” remark, protests, bans, fines, and Argentina’s defiant homecoming.

00:00 Setting Up England Argentina

01:23 Ramsey Hides Wingless Wonders

03:16 Hurst Replaces Greaves

05:11 Mundialito Lessons In Brazil

09:47 Argentina Pragmatism And Press Reaction

15:43 Referee Paranoia And FIFA Politics

19:14 Argentina Chaos Before Wembley

22:40 Greyhound Racing And Pre Match Tension

26:32 Match Begins And Footage Limits

29:37 Rattin Booking Sparks Flashpoint

33:57 Booking Confusion Builds

35:06 Rattin Sent Off Mystery

38:40 Interpreter Myth Explained

41:53 Aero Bars and Union Jack

45:25 Who Was Actually Booked

46:06 Press Fury and Fix Claims

51:56 Ten Men Battle On

56:01 England Finally Break Through

57:18 Animals Comment Fallout

01:03:17 Bans Fines and Aftermath

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Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson continue their four-part series on England’s 1966 World Cup win by tracing how Alf Ramsey’s team took shape amid low expectations and press criticism after a 3–2 Wembley loss to Austria. They discuss doubts over the 4-2-4, Bobby Charlton’s role, and growing concerns about Jimmy Greaves’ form, before key friendlies reveal Ramsey’s “wingless wonders” approach: a 4-1-3-2/4-3-3 hybrid showcased in Spain and then unveiled dramatically in Poland with the surprise inclusion of Martin Peters. At the World Cup, Ramsey initially reverts to wingers, drawing 0–0 with Uruguay, then beating Mexico 2–0 via a standout Bobby Charlton strike and France 2–0 with Roger Hunt’s goals. Two shadows emerge: Nobby Stiles’ violent conduct against France and Greaves’ shin injury that rules him out of the quarterfinal, opening the door for Geoff Hurst.

00:00 England Written Off

01:48 Austria Defeat Fallout

04:17 Ramsey Rethinks Tactics

07:47 Greaves Under Scrutiny

10:24 Spain Reveals Wingless Plan

15:08 Poland Test and Peters Shock

20:43 Hiding the System

22:21 World Cup Opener Uruguay

25:49 Uruguay Stalemate Fallout

26:49 Meet J L Manning

28:58 Tactics Jargon Backlash

32:24 Mexico Magic Moment

33:15 Charlton Screamer Breakdown

36:18 France Win And Rotation

39:04 Stiles Controversy And FA Row

42:36 Greaves Injury Hurst Opportunity

44:50 Greaves Debate Luxury Player

50:05 Next Episode And Patreon Plug

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Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson begin a four-part series revisiting England’s 1966 World Cup win by focusing on Sir Alf Ramsey’s background and the conservative England setup he inherited, including the FA selection committee and a poor early World Cup record. They argue Ramsey, often caricatured as dour, was socially conservative and xenophobic but tactically radical, demanding control of selection and modernizing England with a system-focused approach influenced by his Ipswich success, zonal marking, and experiments that questioned traditional wingers. They discuss his reserved personality, class and heritage issues, a reported instance of backing a player convicted of gross indecency, and why blaming 1966 for later English insularity is misguided. Ramsey’s early England results are mixed, but a 1964 Brazil trip helps crystallize his shift away from 4-2-4, and by April 1965 the emerging core includes Banks, Moore, Jack Charlton, and Nobby Stiles.

00:00 Meet Alf Ramsey

01:49 Ipswich Miracle Title

03:28 Ending Selection Committees

05:20 England World Cup Woes

06:50 Dour Yet Radical

09:23 Xenophobia And Origins

14:14 Was 1966 A Curse

17:28 Ramsey Playing Roots

20:36 Ipswich Tactical Experiments

24:38 Brutalism And Football

27:27 Brutalism Meets Football

31:21 Ramsey Blueprint Emerges

33:02 First Camp Shock Therapy

36:43 Early Results and Doubts

40:05 Brazil Trip Reality Check

40:43 Curfew Crackdown

46:16 Tactics Shift and New Spine

47:51 Jack Charlton and Stiles Debut

53:19 Foundations of 1966

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this week's episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by Tim Vickery to discuss the extraordinary story of Brazil at the World Cup.

From the ultra-nationalism and hysteria of 1938, to the trauma of the Maracanazo in 1950, and the glorious Pelé years that forged a nation's identity between 1958 and 1970. Vickery traces every Brazilian World Cup campaign.

Drawing on his new book Mundiales, Vickery offers a uniquely South American perspective on how the beautiful game's most celebrated nation has wrestled with myth, race, politics, and tactical evolution across nearly a century of football.

With the 2026 World Cup on the horizon and Carlo Ancelotti now at the helm, can Brazil rediscover their identity, or has the ghost of 1970 become an impossible standard?

00:00 Introduction — Tim Vickery Joins from Rio

06:30 The Myth of Samba Football

13:00 1938, Radio, and Tropical Nationalism

19:30 1950, The Maracanazo and a Nation's Trauma

27:00 1954, The Battle of Bern and Revenge Football

31:30 1958, Meticulous Planning, Pelé, and Redemption

37:20 The Post-1970 Identity Crisis

41:00 1982, Failure and a Lost Midfield Art

47:00 The Domestic Decline of Brazilian Coaching

49:30 Qatar 2022, Were Brazil Really That Far Off?

52:00 Carlo Ancelotti and the 2026 World Cup

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this week's episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper pick their six greatest European Cup and Champions League finals of all time.

From the 127,000 who stayed to applaud Real Madrid's 7-3 demolition of Eintracht Frankfurt in 1960, to Ajax passing Juventus into submission in 1973 and Pep Guardiola's Barcelona spearheaded by Xavi flying to the title at Wembley in 2011. 

Wilson and Draper trace the tactical revolutions, romantic triumphs, and spectacular collapses that defined European football's greatest competition. 

With Arsenal facing PSG in this week's Champions League final, will Mikel Arteta join the elite list of managers who have won Europes’s elite competition or will Luis Enrique go back to back with PSG?

00:00 Introduction — Champions League Final Week

06:30 Real Madrid 7-3 Eintracht Frankfurt (1960)

19:20 Ajax 1-0 Juventus (1973)

34:50 AC Milan 4-0 Barcelona (1994) 

42:15 Celtic 2-1 Inter Milan (1967) 

53:40 Barcelona 3-1 Manchester United (2011) 

58:10 Benfica 5-3 Real Madrid (1962) 

01:03:20 Why Not 1999 or 2005? — And Can PSG Become an All-Time Great?

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Listen to the Full Episode on the IWWIW Patreon here...

In this Patreon special of It Was What It Was, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper speak with Jonathan Northcroft about the updated paperback edition of their Gareth Southgate book, retitled Inside England, which adds four new chapters. They discuss Southgate’s cultural reset, including the Royal Marines camp at Lympstone, and trace the deeper roots of England’s revival through reforms such as EPPP and England DNA, alongside figures like Dan Ashworth, Dave Redding, Trevor Brooking and Greg Dyke’s 2022 World Cup target. They cover how improved youth development, psychology and data-led penalty preparation helped transform England into a resilient tournament team, before assessing Euro 2024’s tactical problems and the FA’s decision to appoint Thomas Tuchel for “wow factor” and elite coaching. They end by weighing concerns about recent friendlies, squad management and camp culture heading into the World Cup.

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this week's episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by Michael Grant, Scottish football correspondent for The Times and author of Fergie Rises, to tell the story of how a young Alex Ferguson shattered the Old Firm duopoly and transformed Aberdeen into serial winners.

This Episode was recorded before the dramatic showdown on the final day of the SPL season between Celtic and Hearts, but was this just the start of the Hearts story? Will they continue threatening to break the Rangers-Celtic stranglehold for years to come? Wilson, Draper and Grant trace the remarkable parallels with Ferguson's Aberdeen revolution. They explore how a brash 36-year-old manager, fresh from a humiliating tribunal after being sacked by St Mirren, walked into a club that had nearly been relegated two years earlier and forged a dynasty. Along the way, they examine the clashes on the pitch, the psychological scars of Fergie's playing days, the infamous post-cup final rant that still hurts his players 40 years on. Michael Grant reveals the man behind the myth... volatile, funny, manipulative, and utterly relentless.

00:00 Introduction — Hearts, the Old Firm, and Why Fergie Matters Now

06:30 Aberdeen Before Ferguson — Nearly Relegated

12:45 The St Mirren Sacking and the Tribunal

19:20 The Westhill Willy Biters

27:10 Willie Miller and the Power Struggle

34:50 Breaking the Old Firm's Psychological Hold

42:15 Winning the League — 5-0 at Easter Road

48:00 Knocking on Fergie's Door at 3am

53:40 The Liverpool Humiliation

58:10 Fergie's Fury — The Morning After Anfield

01:03:20 Youth Development and Building a Dynasty

01:09:00 The Infamous 1983 Cup Final Rant

01:14:30 Why the Old Firm Were Vulnerable — and can Hearts Can Do It Again?

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this week's episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper tell the remarkable story of Bert Trautmann — the former Nazi paratrooper who became Manchester City's beloved goalkeeper and an unlikely symbol of Anglo-German reconciliation. 70 years on from the legendary 1956 FA Cup final, Wilson and Draper trace Trautmann's extraordinary journey: from Hitler Youth member and fighting on the Eastern Front, to prisoner of war in England, to the man who played on with a broken neck at Wembley. They examine his teenage indoctrination, the atrocity he witnessed, that shattered his faith in Nazism and the 25,000 protesters at Maine Road. Along the way, they explore the brutal treatment of goalkeepers in this era and how three successive cup final incidents began to change the game's laws. Finally, they reflect on how a flawed, charismatic man became the perfect bridge between two nations.

00:00 Jimmy Ashcroft and the Goalkeeper's Lot

06:30 Hitler Youth — Trautmann's Indoctrination

12:45 The Eastern Front

19:20 Witnessing the SS Massacre

25:00 Captured Three Times — Soviets, Americans, and a Cup of Tea

27:10 Prisoner of War and the Accidental Goalkeeper

34:50 Staying in England

42:15 25,000 Protesters

48:00 Winning Over Manchester

53:40 The 1956 FA Cup Final — Playing On with a Broken Neck

58:10 The Dangerous Life of the Goalkeeper

01:03:20 Footballer of the Year and Personal Tragedy

01:09:00 Burma, Women's Football, and an OBE

01:14:30 The Perfect Symbol of Reconciliation

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this week's episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper revisit the 1995-96 Premier League season. 30 years on from one of the great title races. They trace Manchester United's unlikely triumph, beginning with the summer meltdown that saw Ince, Hughes, and Kanchelskis all depart, the infamous opening-day defeat to Aston Villa, and Alan Hansen's immortal verdict. From Cantona's Paris crisis and Ferguson's diplomatic dinner to Newcastle's flying start and that seemingly insurmountable 12-point lead, Wilson and Draper unpick every twist. They examine Schmeichel's heroics in the pivotal March showdown at St James' Park, the Tino Asprilla effect, the curse of the grey shirts at The Dell, and finally the extraordinary moment Kevin Keegan lost his composure on live television.

00:00 Alan Hansen Sets the Scene

06:30 The Summer Meltdown — Ince, Hughes, Kanchelskis

12:45 Class of '92 and the Aston Villa Opener

19:20 Cantona's Paris Crisis and Ferguson's Rescue Mission

27:10 Newcastle's Flying Start and the 12-Point Lead

34:50 The March Showdown at St James' Park

42:15 Tino Asprilla and the Rodney Marsh Debate

48:00 Liverpool 4, Newcastle 3 — The Moment It Turned

53:40 The Grey Shirts and the Southampton Collapse

58:10 The Mind Games Begin

01:03:20 Keegan's Meltdown — "I Will Love It"

01:09:00 United Win the League and the Double

01:14:30 Why This Season Made the Premier League

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this week’s episode, co-hosts Jonthan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by Sports Journalist and author Jonathan Northcroft to take a look 10 years on from that extraordinary and famous Premier League win! They frame the story around key pivot points, including the Valentine’s Day defeat at Arsenal and the self-belief it sparked, plus Ranieri’s unexpected decision to still grant the squad a holiday. Northcroft traces the longer build-up through the 2013 Watford play-off heartbreak, Nigel Pearson’s cross-department reset, the 2014 Championship-winning platform (and the later FFP breach), and the club’s smart recruitment and early data use that delivered players like Kanté, Mahrez and Okazaki. They cover Pearson’s departure after off-field incidents, the scepticism around Ranieri’s appointment, his “dilly ding” media touch, rivals’ crises, standout wins over Liverpool and Manchester City, Spurs’ chase, and the city’s all-in celebrations as the miracle became real.

06:35 Origins of the Build

10:39 FFP and the Promotion Debate

11:35 Recruitment and Data Edge

17:36 Kante and Mahrez Backstories

22:22 Pearson Great Escape and Exit

26:10 Ranieri Arrives Against the Odds

27:46 Dilly Ding and Pizza Psychology

35:24 Chelsea Chaos Unravels

41:42 Big Clubs in Crisis

45:02 Vardy Volley and City Statement

47:37 Leicester Media Frenzy

53:30 Spurs Pressure and Title Night

59:19 Leicester Celebrates as One

01:04:30 Bonkers Finale

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was the football history podcast. In today’s episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper bring this Graham Taylor series to a close with the Oslo qualifier that defined his reign: a chaotic, tactically muddled 2–0 loss to Norway at the peak of their ‘golden age’, captured in painful detail by The Impossible Job. Unpacking Taylor’s mounting stress, tabloid caricature and “no‑win” selection calls—especially the dilemma of persisting with an undercooked Paul Gascoigne—before explaining how the back-three plan collapsed, England’s structure unravelled, and Norway’s alertness (including a quick free kick) punished them. The episode breaks down England’s chaotic structure, Norway’s tactical calm under Egil “Drillo” Olsen, and Taylor’s famous touchline outbursts, before tracing the fallout: “Norse Manure” headlines, concerns the players had stopped responding, and a demoralising US tour. England briefly revive by beating Poland, but lose in Rotterdam and, despite winning 7–1 in San Marino after conceding almost instantly, miss out as the Netherlands win in Poland. They assess Taylor’s broader legacy, his misfortune with timing and player form, and his later rehabilitation at Watford.

01:51 Norway’s Golden Generation

04:51 Tabloid Mockery Era

06:11 Psychology and Pressure

08:18 The Gaza Fitness Dilemma

18:30 Paranoia and Tactical Switch

22:50 System Collapse in Oslo

25:57 Quick Free Kick Nightmare

29:41 Norway Strike Again

30:32 Tabloid Backlash

32:07 Tactics And Trust

35:18 Bigger Picture Failings

42:56 USA Tour Fallout

43:49 Last Chance Qualifiers

45:36 San Marino Shock

48:28 Reassessing the Taylor Legacy

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was. In today's episode, co-hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson continue Graham Taylor’s England story as the 1994 World Cup qualifying begins to wobble, with Paul Gascoigne’s talent and volatility dominating the narrative. They examine how Taylor’s pragmatic, direct style—shaped by lower-league realities and later linked (often unfairly) to FA long-ball doctrine—collided with more technical European approaches, and how internal battles involving Charles Hughes and data pioneer Charles Reap poisoned the backdrop. England’s campaign lurches through a Norway draw at Wembley after a late stunner, a Gascoigne-inspired win over Turkey, and a damaging 2–2 draw with the Netherlands featuring an undetected elbow and a late penalty. With Gascoigne returning in a mask, England then stumble in a hostile Poland away match and escape with a late equaliser, before Taylor’s brutal “headless chickens” verdict leaves his team heading to Oslo under growing pressure.

00:24 Setting the Scene

03:08 Taylor’s Pragmatic Roots

06:50 Pressing vs Possession

10:04 Charles Hughes and the Winning Formula

13:55 Reap vs Hughes Fallout

19:31 Norway’s Long Ball Irony

21:59 Back to Qualifying Hopes

24:10 Gazza’s Norway Controversy

26:50 Taylor’s Gaza Dilemma

28:22 Norway Opener Heartbreak

30:53 Turkey Win and Dependence

32:53 Too Honest With Press

40:12 Dutch Clash at Wembley

44:13 Mask Return and Mania

45:52 Poland Chaos and Critique

49:03 Headless Chickens Finale

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue on from last week’s episode with Jan Fjortoft to delve into how things went wrong for Graham Taylor during his time as England manager. In this first part of a three part series on Graham Taylor (following our episode with Fjortoft) we take a look at the high of Italia ’90 to the early warning signs of Graham Taylor’s troubled England reign, setting up the wider story of his eventual downfall. Central to the episode is Paul Gascoigne’s rise into “Gaza mania,” the off-field chaos and disciplinary problems that followed, including the 1991 FA Cup final knee rupture and subsequent setbacks. Taylor struggled to manage both the player and the circus around him. England qualified for Euro 1992 but drew twice, lost to Sweden and Taylor’s substitution of Gary Lineker became emblematic as tabloid ridicule culminate in a reputational collapse for Taylor.

01:05 The Impossible Job Era

07:39 Referees And Rotterdam

12:47 Italia 90 Reality Check

20:02 Gaza Mania Begins

25:31 Euro Qualifiers Begin

28:24 Ireland Away Selection

30:08 Taylor Press Tightrope

35:48 Cup Final Knee Rupture

41:46 Euro 92 Sweden Turning Point

42:55 Lineker Sub Controversy

47:50 Fitness Gap And Refuelling

49:32 Turnip Taylor Tabloid Sting

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Today co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by a very special returning guest - Jan Fjørtoft! In this episode, we will explore Norway’s remarkable rise in the early 1990s and their famous 2–0 win over Graham Taylor’s England in 1993. Fjørtoft explains how Egil “Drillo” Olsen took a previously struggling national team and built belief through a disciplined, direct style, carefully defined roles, and detailed match analysis using hand-written stats and video. The episode breaks down the key tactical choices that unsettled England, revisits both Norway goals, and follows the qualifier run that took Norway to their first World Cup since 1938. Norway will return to the World Cup this summer for the first time since 1998. This episode will be followed by a three part special on Graham Taylor.

01:12 Norway before the rise

04:09 Olsen arrives and stirs

06:47 Direct football philosophy

14:31 Stats and analysis

20:05 Defined roles and system

23:40 Beating England 

28:12 Tactical switch 

31:33 Gascoigne fitness factor

32:50 Olsen’s Selection Mind Games

37:20 Two Goals Breakdown

42:41 Road to USA 94 Sealed

45:45 Poland Night and Wild Celebrations

48:46 Heroes Welcome in Norway

52:04 World Cup Heat Prep Fiasco

59:59 Egil Olsen Legacy

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Today, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper take you back to the 1966 FIFA World Cup.

On home soil in England, the hosts claimed their first and only World Cup title. Captain Bobby Moore marshalled the side with composure, while Geoff Hurst rose to immortality with a historic hat-trick in the final. England’s triumph, sealed in a dramatic victory over West Germany, remains one of the most iconic moments in football history and the nations greatest footballing day.

You can listen to the full episode on Patreon, along with the below privileges:

Exclusive deep dives, specials & extended conversations from one-off specials to extra episodes that expand on our weekly free shows, you’ll get fresh, members-only content - including our “Bonus Editions” strand where Rob and Jonathan go deeper into football’s biggest stories and hidden histories.

Our countdown to 2026 - every tournament revisited Join Rob and Jonathan as they walk through every World Cup from 1930 to today, exploring the drama, evolution, legends, controversies and cultural impact of each tournament.

Flicking through the archives of classic football culture A nostalgic series diving into the pages of Shoot! and other retro football magazines - revisiting the stars, forgotten features, and football fandom of decades past.

Your chance to ask two of football’s leading writers anything. Submit your questions about recent episodes, football history, their journalism, or upcoming projects — and hear their answers in our LIVE members-only Q&A.

Connect with fellow fans & nostalgia lovers Meet other members who share your passion for football history. Be part of the conversation and help shape the future of the show.

• Exclusive content
• Q&As
• Ad-free episodes
• Private community

Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by an extraudinary guest - Clyde Best. An absolute pioneer to the game, born in Bermuda, Clyde would become one of the first black players in First Division football in England. His new film, ‘Transforming the Beautiful Game: The Clyde Best Story’ will be shown for a week at Sadler’s Wells East from 25th March.

In this episode, Clyde recounts arriving in England as a teenager, getting lost at West Ham station and being taken in by the Charles family. He reflects on his rise at West Ham, getting his debut against Arsenal under Ron Greenwood in 1969 and playing alongside the likes of Bobby Moore, Geoff Hurst and Martin Peters. Clyde talks of the his Bermuda upbringing, national team breakthrough and the influence that his father had on him. Best reflects on being one of the first prominent black players in English football, enduring racist abuse and an acid-attack threat and playing against Pelé. He also discusses NASL moves to Tampa Bay and Portland Timbers and the inspiration he provided players such as Ian Wright.

01:29 Lost at Heathrow

03:23 The Charles Family

06:59 Bermuda Beginnings

10:20 West Ham Dream

13:20 Ron Greenwood Impact

15:22 Fast Track Debut

18:35 Breaking Barriers

24:06 Facing Racism

31:03 Scoring Against Pelé

35:20 Leaving West Ham for the NASL

37:17 American Soccer Showmanship

43:01 Legacy as a Pioneer

46:57 Honorary Doctorate

49:44 His love for West Ham

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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this final part three of our three-part special on Colombian football and the tragedy of Andrés Escobar.

Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper tell the story of the 1994 World Cup and its devastating aftermath. This episode explores the immense and impossible pressure placed on the Colombian squad, from death threats delivered to hotel room TVs, to the chaos of a nation in civil war pinning all its hopes on eleven men. The discussion covers the Romania defeat, the fateful own goal against the USA, and the senseless murder of Andrés Escobar outside a nightclub. Rob and Jonathan also examine the legacy of Escobar 'the gentleman of football' and his remarkable fiancée Pamela Cascada, before reflecting on Colombia's long road to recovery and redemption.

You can listen to this episode ad-free over on our Patreon - Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was. You will also get access to our World Cup countdown, magazine retrospectives and bonus episodes as well as a monthly Q&A with Rob and Jonathan.

01:00 Andrés Escobar's Posthumous Column in El Tiempo

01:55 Setting the Scene: The Narco State & Pablo Escobar's Death

06:55 Pablo Escobar's Deep Love of Football

10:55 Francisco Maturana on the Narcos: "Like an Octopus"

16:30 Andrés Escobar: El Caballero del Fútbol

20:25 A Move to AC Milan & The Burden of Representing Colombia

23:30 Higuita's Exclusion & The President's Calculations

26:00 The Romania Defeat: Hagi's Moment of Magic

27:45 Death Threats, Kidnappings & Maturana in Tears

33:00 The USA Game: Playing Under the Shadow of Snipers

35:30 The Own Goal & Colombia's Elimination

37:15 The Murder of Andrés Escobar

41:00 Who Killed Escobar? The Galón Brothers & the Cover-Up

44:45 The State Funeral & Pamela Cascada's Dignity

48:15 The Aftermath: Colombia's Slow Road to Redemption

51:45 2014 & The Restoration of Colombian Football Pride

54:15 Closing Thoughts

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In this sneak peek to a bonus episode of It Was What It Was on Patreon, hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by Professor Matthew Brown (University of Bristol) to deepen the series on Andrés Escobar by tracing how Colombian history, political violence and the drug economy intersect with football. Brown rejects Gabriel García Márquez’s claim that three events defined 20th-century Colombia, while explaining why the 5–0 win over Argentina in 1993 became a tipping point for football as a national identity marker. The discussion covers football’s emergence alongside other sporting cultures, the role of sport after the 1948 Bogotazo and during La Violencia, and Colombia’s later shift into guerrilla conflict and cocaine trafficking. They explore cartel money’s social and sporting influence, the effects of Pablo Escobar’s death and subsequent violence, the symbolic damage of Colombia’s 1994 World Cup collapse, Copa América 2001, and how the 2014 team helped build trust during negotiations leading to the 2016 peace deal, while noting ongoing violence tied to the illegal drug trade.

You can listen to the full episode on Patreon

On Tuesday, Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson return to round off the Colombia series and bring that story to a close.

On Wednesday, on Patreon only, the co-hosts continue the World Cup countdown series with an episode on the 1962 World Cup in Chile, looking back at the tournament and some of its key moments.

Then on Friday, also on Patreon only, we look back at when Northern Ireland faced Italy in the 1958 World Cup qualifiers. With Northern Ireland preparing for their 2026 World Cup play-off semi-final against Italy, Rob and Jonathan revisit the meeting where Northern Ireland qualified for their first World Cup and discuss the background to Ireland’s football split in the 1950s.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this second part two of our three-part special on Colombian football and the tragedy of Andrés Escobar.

Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper dissect one of the greatest World Cup qualifying matches ever played: Colombia's stunning 5-0 victory over Argentina at El Monumental in Buenos Aires. This episode explores the dramatic buildup to the match, the hostile reception faced by the Colombian team, and the extraordinary performance that shocked the football world. The discussion then examines the dangerous euphoria that followed, as Colombia began to believe that they could win the 1994 World Cup, and the dark realities of the narco state.

You can listen to this episode ad-free over on our Patreon - Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was. You will also get access to our World Cup countdown, magazine retrospectives and bonus episodes as well as a monthly Q&A with Rob and Jonathan.

01:39 Colombia's Mindset Before the Match & The Hostile Reception

04:07 The Lineup: Colombia vs Argentina at El Monumental

11:25 The Match Begins: Early Tension & Argentina's Miss

14:05 The Plane Incident: A Bizarre Moment at El Monumental

16:01 GOAL: Rincón Opens the Scoring 

17:26 Maturana's Psychological Tactics at Half Time

18:05 GOAL: Asprilla Makes It 2-0

18:47 GOAL: Valencia Volleys In the Third

19:56 GOAL: Asprilla's Exquisite Curler Makes It 4-0

21:00 GOAL: Valencia Completes the Rout - 5-0

22:14 The Monumental Applauds Colombia Off the Pitch

24:32 The Celebrations: 100 Deaths & National Hysteria

30:55 "Now We're F***ed": The Burden of Expectation

33:19 World Champions Before the Tournament Begins

39:25 21 Friendlies & The Cash Grab

44:51 The Dark Side: Meeting With the Cali Cartel

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this first part of our three-part special on Colombian football and the tragedy of Andrés Escobar.

Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper explore the extraordinary history of Colombian football leading up to the 1994 World Cup. This episode covers the intersection of football and narco-culture, Pablo Escobar's involvement in the sport, the tense rivalry with Argentina, and the dramatic road to qualification culminating in the legendary 5-0 victory at El Monumental. 

You can listen to this episode ad-free over on our Patreon - Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was. You will also get access to our World Cup countdown, magazine retrospectives and bonus episodes as well as a monthly Q&A with Rob and Jonathan.

01:39 The El Dorado League & Early Colombian Football

10:11 Francisco Maturana: The Dentist Who Revolutionised Colombian Football

19:02 Maturana's Influences: Total Football Meets South American Flair

27:43 Navigating Narco-Culture: Pablo Escobar

36:11 René Higuita: The Sweeper-Keeper & The Kidnapping

41:25 Building Rivalry: Colombia vs Argentina at Copa América 1993

48:12 World Cup Qualifying Begins: Asprilla's Controversies

54:03 The Road to Buenos Aires: Setting Up the Five-Nil

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We're on Patreon! As a treat to our loyal listeners, here's a sneak peek of what you'll be getting if you join the "It Was" Patreon community.

This week Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by author Bill Buford to round up their series on hooliganism.

Exclusive deep dives, specials & extended conversations from one-off specials to extra episodes that expand on our weekly free shows, you’ll get fresh, members-only content - including our “Bonus Editions” strand where Rob and Jonathan go deeper into football’s biggest stories and hidden histories.

Our countdown to 2026 - every tournament revisited Join Rob and Jonathan as they walk through every World Cup from 1930 to today, exploring the drama, evolution, legends, controversies and cultural impact of each tournament.

Flicking through the archives of classic football culture A nostalgic series diving into the pages of Shoot! and other retro football magazines - revisiting the stars, forgotten features, and football fandom of decades past.

Your chance to ask two of football’s leading writers anything. Submit your questions about recent episodes, football history, their journalism, or upcoming projects — and hear their answers in our LIVE members-only Q&A.

Connect with fellow fans & nostalgia lovers Meet other members who share your passion for football history. Be part of the conversation and help shape the future of the show.

• Exclusive content
• Q&As
• Ad-free episodes
• Private community

Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this second part of our two-part special on football hooliganism, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper trace the roots of football violence from the 1890s through to its transformation into organised ‘firms’ in the 1960s, 70s and 80s. They discuss the origins of the word ‘hooligan’, early crowd disorder and FA crackdowns, and how post-war prosperity, youth subcultures, away travel and ‘taking ends’ helped create a new kind of fan conflict. The episode also covers the European and England-team flashpoints of the 1970s and 80s, the political and policing response to the Popplewell Report, with later links to post-Hillsborough reforms and why large-scale hooliganism declined.

You can listen to this episode ad-free over on our Patreon - Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was. You will also get access to our World Cup countdown, magazine retrospectives and bonus episodes as well as a monthly Q&A with Rob and Jonathan.

01:39 Where the Word ‘Hooligan’ Comes From (1890s London)

04:03 Football Fever: Mass Crowds and Class Anxiety

12:17 What Early ‘Hooliganism’ Looked Like: Pitch Invasions & Crowd Control

17:43 Players Under Attack

20:25 Fan-on-Fan Violence Emerges & the Rise of Away Travel

22:08 Cup Finals, ‘Football Specials’ & Patronising Press Panic

27:27 Post-War: The 60s–70s Gangs Are Coming

29:02 Teddy Boys, Rock ’n’ Roll Panics & Mods vs Rockers

31:02 Merseyside: Away Travel & the Rise of Chanting

36:53 Taking Ends: Territory, Undercover Trouble & the New ‘Game’

41:58 Europe & England Abroad: From Paris 1975 to Euro 1980

44:00 1980s Casuals, Designer Gear & Firms Arranging Fights

48:43 1985: Luton–Millwall, Heysel, Thatcher & the Popplewell Report

51:28 Aftermath: CCTV, ID Schemes & Taylor Report

53:50 Global Legacy: Ultras, Copycat Firms & Why Football Identity Endures

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this first part of a two-part special on football hooliganism, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by special guest Cass Pennant - former West Ham United Inter City Firm member who later became an author and film producer. They discuss director Ian Stuttard (known as “Butch”) and his 1985 groundbreaking documentary 'Hooligan', which challenged the stereotype of hooligans. Cass explains how Stuttard earned access by spending months with the ICF without a camera, building trust, and later filming from inside the action. The episode also covers the Thatcher-era context, the film’s controversial release and its wider impact on how 'firms' were understood. We finish the episode with Cass reflecting on Stuttard’s wider documentary career, their later partnership in a production company, and Stuttard’s lasting legacy. Join us next week for the history of football hooliganism.

You can listen to this episode ad-free over on our Patreon - Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was. You will also get access to our World Cup countdown, magazine retrospectives and bonus episodes as well as a monthly Q&A with Rob and Jonathan.

00:38 Introducing Cass Pennant and the Documentary

03:21 How Ian Stuttard Got Access to the ICF

11:08 Trust Test: A Year With No Camera

15:28 1985 Context: Thatcher’s Britain, Youth Culture, and Misread ‘Casuals’

24:19 Inside the Footage: Street Fighting, Early Video Cameras, and Codes of Conduct

26:23 Butch’s War-Correspondent Mindset

33:22 Back in the Studio: How ‘Hooligan’ Got Its Unfiltered Authenticity

34:02 Pre-Broadcast Panic: Calls to Ban the Film & Fears of Copycats

40:18 From Gangs to ‘Firms’

45:33 Inside Whitehall: Giving Evidence to the Popplewell Inquiry

54:59 Why It Faded: Fans Wanting Out, Politics, Policing & the Premier League Era

58:42 Stuttard's Legacy: Funeral Reflections, Final Bucket List Match & Lasting Impact

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We're on Patreon! As a treat to our loyal listeners, here's a sneak peek of what you'll be getting if you join the "It Was" Patreon community.

In a new Patreon series - Rob and Jonathan take a trip back through the World Cup! This will be dropping every Wednesday on Patreon - so we've gone with the imaginative title of World Cup Wednesdays!

If you join, you'll also be getting ad-free main episodes, loads more bonus episodes, magazine retrospectives and Q&As with Rob and Jonathan. Plus you'll be supporting the show and connecting with the "It Was..." community.

Patreon subscribers get:

Exclusive deep dives, specials & extended conversations from one-off specials to extra episodes that expand on our weekly free shows, you’ll get fresh, members-only content - including our “Bonus Editions” strand where Rob and Jonathan go deeper into football’s biggest stories and hidden histories.

Our countdown to 2026 - every tournament revisited Join Rob and Jonathan as they walk through every World Cup from 1930 to today, exploring the drama, evolution, legends, controversies and cultural impact of each tournament.

Flicking through the archives of classic football culture A nostalgic series diving into the pages of Shoot! and other retro football magazines - revisiting the stars, forgotten features, and football fandom of decades past.

Your chance to ask two of football’s leading writers anything. Submit your questions about recent episodes, football history, their journalism, or upcoming projects — and hear their answers in our LIVE members-only Q&A.

Connect with fellow fans & nostalgia lovers Meet other members who share your passion for football history. Be part of the conversation and help shape the future of the show.

• Exclusive content
• Q&As
• Ad-free episodes
• Private community

Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was

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Welcome back to It Was What it Was, the football history podcast. Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into Pep Guardiola’s story at Manchester City 10 years on from his appointment at the club and the difficulties he would face in his opening season. Join us as we explore the highs and lows, from the thrilling victories to the unexpected defeats. We discuss his controversial decisions, key matches, and the significant signings that shaped the team's future. Can Pep's philosophy adapt to the rigors of English football? Discover how one of the world's most acclaimed coaches navigated his debut season and set the stage for a legacy at the Etihad. Don't miss out on the in-depth analysis and special bonus content available exclusively on our Patreon page, following the link below:

https://www.patreon.com/cw/ItWas

00:00 Exciting News: Join Our Patreon Community!

02:51 Introduction

04:47 Pep Guardiola's First Season Struggles

07:56 The Tactical Challenges and Key Matches

15:52 Pep's Appointment and Early Expectations

22:02 Transfer Market Moves and Squad Challenges

27:53 Yaya Touré's Controversial Exit

28:56 Manchester City's Winning Streak

30:34 Champions League Group Stage Drama

32:02 Pep's Concerns and Criticisms

43:49 Champions League Humiliation

51:44 End of a Disappointing Season

53:19 Looking Ahead: Pep's Future at City

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We're launching on Patreon! And to kick things off, here's a sneak peek of what you'll be getting if you join the "It Was" Patreon community.

In this first episode in a new Patreon series - Rob and Jonathan take a trip back through historic issues of football magazines - starting with Shoot!

If you join, you'll also be getting all of our main episdoes ad free, bonus episodes, World Cup countdown and Q&As with Rob and Jonathan. Plus you'll be supporting the show and connecting with the "It Was..." community.

Patreon subscribers get:

Exclusive deep dives, specials & extended conversations from one-off specials to extra episodes that expand on our weekly free shows, you’ll get fresh, members-only content - including our “Bonus Editions” strand where Rob and Jonathan go deeper into football’s biggest stories and hidden histories.

Our countdown to 2026 - every tournament revisited Join Rob and Jonathan as they walk through every World Cup from 1930 to today, exploring the drama, evolution, legends, controversies and cultural impact of each tournament.

Flicking through the archives of classic football culture A nostalgic series diving into the pages of Shoot! and other retro football magazines - revisiting the stars, forgotten features, and football fandom of decades past.

Your chance to ask two of football’s leading writers anything. Submit your questions about recent episodes, football history, their journalism, or upcoming projects — and hear their answers in our LIVE members-only Q&A.

Connect with fellow fans & nostalgia lovers Meet other members who share your passion for football history. Be part of the conversation and help shape the future of the show.

• Exclusive content
• Q&As
• Ad-free episodes
• Private community

Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We are excited to announce that we will be launching a Patreon on Friday 6th February, where you can get bonus episodes and exclusive content. Follow the link below to sign up:

Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. On today's episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue exploring one of the most controversial football transfers - Luis Figo's move from Barcelona to Real Madrid. In this second part of the two-part series, they delve into the public and private turmoil surrounding the transfer, including the dramatic fallout at both clubs, fan reactions, and the momentous pig's head incident. They also examine the long-term impact on Figo's career and friendships, and the profound changes this transfer spurred in football. Don't miss this thrilling conclusion!

00:00 Exciting News and our Patreon Launch

02:51 Introduction to the Episode

04:28 Speculation and Media Frenzy

06:17 Election Drama and Figo's Dilemma

07:30 The Final Decision

09:52 The Fallout and Consequences

11:51 The Election Results

13:56 Figo's Reluctance and Pressure

16:26 The Persuasion Tactics

19:20 The Final Agreement

28:19 Florentino's Persuasion Tactics

31:22 Figo's Announcement and Gaspar's Reaction

33:14 The Fallout in Barcelona

40:57 The First El Clásico After the Transfer

43:49 The Infamous Pig's Head Incident

48:56 The Lingering Legacy and Impact

53:20 Figo's Reflections and Conclusion

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Welcome back to It Was What it Was, the football history podcast. Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into one of the most shocking football transfers of all time - Luis Figo's move from Barcelona to Real Madrid. They discuss the immense impact of this transfer on both clubs, the controversy surrounding it, and how it altered the landscape of football transfers forever. Featuring insights about the political machinations in both clubs, the role of agents, and the seismic shift this transfer created in the football world, this episode brings to life the dramatic story behind the headlines. Tune in for part one of this fascinating two-part series!

00:00 Quote to open the episode

05:53 Figo's Role and Style of Play

09:16 The Political and Historical Context

17:03 The Presidential Election and Florentino Perez

26:39 Florentino Perez's Strategy

30:44 The Complacency at Barcelona

31:23 Florentino Perez's Scramble for Figo

32:20 The Role of José Veiga

36:11 The Pre-Contract and Its Implications

48:06 The Election and the Leak

52:54 The Fallout and Future Implications

53:20 Exciting News: Launching a Patreon

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to It Was What it Was, the football history podcast. In the final episode of our four-part special on the NASL, co-hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson delve into the decline and eventual collapse of the league. From financial instability, over-expansion, and missed opportunities, to the controversial business decisions and the rise of indoor soccer. This episode covers the myriad of factors that led to the NASL's downfall. Explore the final turbulent years, the impact on US Soccer, and the lessons learned from one of football's most intriguing leagues.

00:00 Introduction to the NASL and Its Peak

02:08 The Decline Begins: Post-Pele Era

05:36 Celebrity Owners and Financial Woes

09:01 The Cosmos' Dominance and League Format Issues

19:21 Franchise Movements and Player Strikes

29:03 The Beginning of the End: Financial Losses and Decline

36:13 Ownership Disputes and Relocations

37:53 Franchise Failures and Player Movements

43:34 NASL's Struggles and FIFA's Ultimatum

44:28 The Final Collapse of NASL

55:18 Failed Experiments and Indoor Soccer

01:01:49 The End of NASL and Its Legacy

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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this third episode of our four-part special on the North American Soccer League (NASL), co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper dive deep into the transformation kicked off by the arrival of legendary soccer star Pele. We go on an epic journey of the NASL, from shambolic beginnings to becoming one of the most iconic and influential leagues in world football, even if just for a short while. We explore how the NASL went from drawing crowds, to attracting the highest-paid player in the world, and the ensuing excitement and challenges that followed. Featuring the key moments, star players, innovative marketing strategies, and the initial signs of financial instability, this episode captures the league at its highest just before its inevitable decline. Don't miss this fascinating look at the peaks of NASL's history and what ultimately led the league to stumble. Tune in next week for the final episode of this four-part series.

02:33 The Growth of Soccer in American Schools and Colleges

03:32 Financial Struggles and the Arrival of Pele

13:54 Innovative Rule Changes and Attendance Issues

18:11 The Role of Media and Celebrity Influence

23:55 The NASL's Expansion and Financial Commitments

31:20 The Pursuit of Soccer Superstars

33:01 Pele's Impact on American Soccer

34:56 The Rise of NASL Franchises

36:59 Challenges and Financial Struggles

39:11 Marketing Gimmicks and Celebrity Players

55:03 The Golden Year of 1977

01:04:36 Pele's Farewell and Future Uncertainties

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Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue onto part two of a four-part special on the North American Soccer League (NASL). They discuss the initial attempts to establish professional soccer leagues in America, including the rivalries between the NASL and the National Professional Soccer League (NPSL). The episode covers the impact of foreign teams, the financial and logistical hurdles, and the ongoing struggle to gain popularity and acceptance in the U.S. market. With input from past experiences and key figures, they provide an in-depth look at why American soccer faced numerous setbacks and what was done to overcome them. Join us next week for part three!

01:09 The Early Years of Soccer in the USA

01:34 The Impact of the Wall Street Crash

06:46 Post-War Challenges

09:43 The Decline of American Soccer in the 1950s

21:46 The 1960s: A Decade of Missed Opportunities

27:15 The Birth of the NASL

33:25 Lack of American Players in Early Leagues

34:55 Rival Leagues: NPSL vs NASL

35:42 Initial Matches and Attendance Issues

40:11 Discipline Problems and Game Abandonments

48:10 Financial Struggles and Legal Battles

49:13 National Team Struggles and Attempts at Growth

50:31 Foreign Influence and Pre-season Tours

54:48 Financial Instability and League Contraction

58:20 NASL's Unconventional Season Format

01:00:32 Legacy and Future Prospects of NASL

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.