Explore every episode of the podcast Inverse Podcast

In light of legendary union organizer Delores Huerta's allegations of abuse at the hands of Cesar Chavez and the collective grieve we all feel as this violence comes to light; in today's episode of Inverse we host Hilary Scarcella for a conversation which explores the intersection of religion, trauma, and sexual violence, emphasizing community accountability, reforming faith communities, and engaging scripture more liberatively. It offers deep insights into how faith traditions can confront their shadow sides and foster safer, more accountable environments.

Chapters

• (00:00:01) - Inverse Interviews Hilary Scarcella
• (00:02:07) - Anabaptist and the Sexual Abuse of Mennonites
• (00:07:28) - The Cesar Chavez Sexual Abuse Story
• (00:18:10) - The problem of child abuse in the Christian Church
• (00:22:53) - A Week in the Life of Jesus
• (00:24:26) - Hillary on Her Early Experiences With The Bible
• (00:29:30) - In the Elevator With Anabaptists
• (00:33:29) - Contemplating the Life of Jesus
• (00:39:28) - Oh My God! My 4 Year Old Says Jesus Got Stabbed
• (00:41:25) - Read the Bible From Your Own Life
• (00:48:13) - Imagine a World Without Abuse
• (00:54:44) - Inverse Podcast: A Different Kind of Community
• (00:56:41) - Community and Sexual Violence
• (01:02:51) - Vocarious Leadership: The Problem
• (01:07:42) - The Problem of Power in the Church

In today's conversation we are joined by Zach Lambert (cofounder of the Post Evangelical Collectiv) and explore themes of biblical interpretation, focusing on the pitfalls of literalism and the apocalyptic mindset prevalent in fundamentalist communities. The discussion highlights how these approaches can lead to fear-based religioin and the policing of theological boundaries, particularly regarding women's roles in ministry.

Zach W. Lambert is the lead pastor and founder of Restore, a church in Austin, Texas. Under his leadership, Restore has grown from a launch team of five people in 2015 to more than 1,000 members today. He holds a bachelor’s degree in communication from Hardin-Simmons University, a Master of Theology from Dallas Theological Seminary, and is pursuing his Doctorate at Duke Divinity School.

Zach is the cofounder of the Post Evangelical Collective and serves on the boards of the Austin Church Planting Network and the Multi-Faith Neighbors Network. Zach and his wife, Amy, met each other in the 6th grade, fell in love at 17, and got married at 21. They love watching live music, discovering local Mexican food places, and playing with their two boys.

Chapters

• (00:00:01) - Interview
• (00:02:17) - Introducing Restoring the Kingdom
• (00:06:55) - Jesus on the Cross
• (00:11:57) - On Being kicked Out of the Southern Baptist Church
• (00:18:17) - Zach Struggles With The Bible
• (00:24:09) - The Harmful Lenses of Fundamentalism
• (00:28:42) - The Four Harmful Lenses of Biblical Literature
• (00:30:54) - Three Pillars of Flourishing the Bible
• (00:33:38) - The Widow's Might in Luke 21
• (00:39:47) - Widow Laying Down Everything for Christ
• (00:43:07) - Jesus on Legal Hermeneutics
• (00:47:13) - The Use of Bible Verses to Support Hate
• (00:52:15) - Stop Stealing Children: Christian theology
• (00:54:07) - Zach Lambert on The Bible and Public Theology

Joash Thomas is an international speaker, theologian and human rights leader. Born and raised in India, Joash ran a political consulting and lobbying firm in the United States before joining the human rights advocacy space. Based in the Toronto area, Joash has a master’s degree in Political Management from The George Washington University and is a few months away from completing a dual master’s degree in Christian Leadership & Systematic Theology. A soon-to-be ordained Deacon in the Diocese of St. Anthony, Joash is also the author of ‘The Justice of Jesus’, a forthcoming book in partnership with Brazos Press to be published in September 2025.

Joint nominee for the Nobel Peace Prize, former Australian Senator, Quaker troublemaker, and anti-nuke peace activist, Jo Vallentine joins us for a very special conversation. As Midnight Oil fans will be aware after the recent music documentary, "Midnight Oil 1984", Peter Garrett missed out but Jo was elected a senator of the People for Nuclear Disarmament Party in 1984. She later served as an Independent and then as Greens Senator and a founding member of the Greens WA party. Conservative newspaper The West Australian named Jo as one of the 100 most influential people in West Australian history. Together we discuss Isaiah 2 and what it means to beat swords into ploughshares today. Follow Drew Hart on [Instagram](http://instagram.com/druhart) and [Twitter](http://twitter.com/druhart) @druhart. Follow Jarrod McKenna on [Instagram](http://www.instagram.com/jarrodmckenna) and [Twitter](http://jarrodmckenna) @jarrodmckenna.

Doctor Willie Jennings is a pastor, theologian, speaker, and world renowned author, and the Associate Professor of Systematic Theology and Africana Studies at Yale Divinity School. Writing in the areas of liberation theologies, cultural identities, and anthropology, Dr Jennings has authored more than 40 scholarly essays and nearly two-dozen reviews, as well as essays on academic administration and blog posts for Religion Dispatches. Dr. Jennings is an ordained Baptist minister and has served as interim pastor for several North Carolina churches. He is in high demand as a speaker and is widely recognized as a major figure in theological education across North America. Dr Jennings’ book **The Christian Imagination: Theology and the Origins of Race** (Yale 2010) won the American Academy of Religion Award of Excellence in the Study of Religion in the Constructive-Reflective category the year after it appeared and, in 2015, the Grawemeyer Award in Religion, the largest prize for a theological work in North America. Englewood Review of Books called the work a “theological masterpiece.” His commentary on the** Book of Acts, titled Acts: A Commentary, The Revolution of the Intimate** (for the Belief Series, Westminster/John Knox) received the Reference Book of the Year Award from The Academy of Parish Clergy in 2018. **** Dr. Jennings has also recently published a book that examines the problems of theological education within western education, entitled** After Whiteness: An Education in Belonging** (Eerdmans, 2020). Dr. Jennings is now working on a major monograph provisionally entitled **Unfolding the World: Recasting a Christian Doctrine of Creation **as well as a finishing a book of poetry entitled **The Time of Possession**. A Calvin College graduate, Jennings received his M.Div. from Fuller Theological Seminary and his Ph.D. in religion and ethics from Duke. This is part one of a two part conversation recorded in community with friends from all over the world. Part two will be released Monday 7 December, 2020. Follow Drew Hart on [Instagram](http://instagram.com/druhart) and [Twitter](http://twitter.com/druhart) @druhart. Follow Jarrod McKenna on [Instagram](http://www.instagram.com/jarrodmckenna) and [Twitter](http://jarrodmckenna) @jarrodmckenna.

Doctor Willie Jennings is a pastor, theologian, speaker, and world renowned author, and the Associate Professor of Systematic Theology and Africana Studies at Yale Divinity School. Writing in the areas of liberation theologies, cultural identities, and anthropology, Dr Jennings has authored more than 40 scholarly essays and nearly two-dozen reviews, as well as essays on academic administration and blog posts for Religion Dispatches. Dr. Jennings is an ordained Baptist minister and has served as interim pastor for several North Carolina churches. He is in high demand as a speaker and is widely recognized as a major figure in theological education across North America. Dr Jennings’ book **The Christian Imagination: Theology and the Origins of Race** (Yale 2010) won the American Academy of Religion Award of Excellence in the Study of Religion in the Constructive-Reflective category the year after it appeared and, in 2015, the Grawemeyer Award in Religion, the largest prize for a theological work in North America. Englewood Review of Books called the work a “theological masterpiece.” His commentary on the** Book of Acts, titled Acts: A Commentary, The Revolution of the Intimate** (for the Belief Series, Westminster/John Knox) received the Reference Book of the Year Award from The Academy of Parish Clergy in 2018. **** Dr. Jennings has also recently published a book that examines the problems of theological education within western education, entitled** After Whiteness: An Education in Belonging** (Eerdmans, 2020). Dr. Jennings is now working on a major monograph provisionally entitled **Unfolding the World: Recasting a Christian Doctrine of Creation **as well as a finishing a book of poetry entitled **The Time of Possession**. A Calvin College graduate, Jennings received his M.Div. from Fuller Theological Seminary and his Ph.D. in religion and ethics from Duke. This is part one of a two part conversation recorded in community with friends from all over the world. Part two will be released Monday 7 December, 2020. Follow Drew Hart on [Instagram](http://instagram.com/druhart) and [Twitter](http://twitter.com/druhart) @druhart. Follow Jarrod McKenna on [Instagram](http://www.instagram.com/jarrodmckenna) and [Twitter](http://jarrodmckenna) @jarrodmckenna.

Paul Harvey (Ph.D. University of California, Berkeley, 1992) researches, writes, and teaches in the field of American history from the 16th century to the present. He is the author/editor of thirteen books and numerous articles, and the is Distinguished Professor of History and Presidential Teaching Scholar at the University of Colarado, Colarado Springs. Paul Harvey is the author of Howard Thurman and the Disinherited: A Religious Biography (Eerdmans Press, 2020), as well as Christianity and Race in the American South: A History (University of Chicago Press, 2016), and Bounds of Their Habitation: Religion and Race in American History (Rowman & Littlefield, 2017). Professor Harvey's recent co-authored book The Color of Christ: The Son of God and the Saga of Race in America, was named a "Top 25 Outstanding Academic Title" by Choice magazine in 2013, an award selected from among the several thousand academic books published in the previous year. Harvey's narrative history survey Through the Storm, Through the Night: A History of African American Christianity (Rowman & Littlefield publishers) was published in 2011, and also received the designation of "Outstanding Academic Title" by Choice Magazine, in 2012. Harvey is also co-editor of the reference work The Columbia Guide to Religion in American History Other publications of note include Redeeming the South: Religious Cultures and Racial Identities Among Southern Baptists, 1865-1925, published in 1997 by the University of North Carolina Press, and in 2005 Freedom's Coming: Religious Cultures and the Shaping of the South from the Civil War through the Civil Rights Era. Paul is also the co-editor (with Philip Goff) of Themes in Religion and American Culture (2004), and The Columbia Documentary History of Religion in North America Since 1945 (2005). Harvey was given the title as Distinguished Professor of History by the University of Colorado in 2017. In the same year he was designated to give the Shriver Lectures in American History at Stetson University in Florida; those lectures later were published as the book Southern Religion in the World: Three Stories. In 2008, Harvey was designated as the Lamar Lecturer in Southern History at Mercer University; the lectures he gave there have breen published at Moses, Jesus and the Trickster in the Evangelical South (University of Georgia Press). In 2009, Harvey was named a Presidential Teaching Scholar at the University of Colorado, and from 2007-09, he served as the Senior Mentor to the Young Scholars in American Religion program at IUPUI in Indianapolis. In 2006, Harvey received the Faculty Award for Excellence in Research from the University of Colorado. In 2008, Harvey received the Outstanding Teaching Award from UCCS. In 2009, Harvey received the designation of Presidential Teaching Scholar at the University of Colorado, a system-wide award recognizing specially designated scholar/teachers throughout the University of Colorado system. Paul has also received the UCCS Chancellor's Award, and served as a Senior Mentor to the Young Scholars in American Religion Program at IUPUI in Indianapolis. For more about Paul Harvey go to [http://paulharvey.org/](http://paulharvey.org//)

Andy Squyres is a singer songwriter from Charlotte North Carolina where he lives with his wife Amy and their kids. He helps lead the community of Queen City Church where he works as worship pastor. He loves Bob Dylan and Leonard Cohen. His favorite theologian is Robert Capon. His favorite thing to do besides hanging out with his family is fishing in the river that runs through his city for largemouth bass. Follow Andy on [Twitter](http://twitter.com/andysquyres) and [Instagram](http://www.instagram.com/andysquyres/) @andysquyres. Follow Drew Hart on [Instagram](http://instagram.com/druhart) and [Twitter](http://twitter.com/druhart) @druhart. Follow Jarrod McKenna on [Instagram](http://www.instagram.com/jarrodmckenna) and [Twitter](http://jarrodmckenna) @jarrodmckenna. Songs: **Dead Horse** and **Love Never Fails** used with permission,

As a special bonus for our listeners, we have created a series to commemorate Inverse Podcast co-host Dr Drew Hart's brand new book *Who Will Be a Witness: Igniting Activism For God's Justice, Love and Deliverance.* In these additional episodes we will interview friends and co-workers to discuss chapter by chapter Drew's new book. These conversations were recorded in community with friends from around the world as past of Inverse's ongoing work to create formation experiences that deepen our witness to God's justice, love and deliverance. *Who Will Be a Witness* offers a vision for communities of faith to organize for deliverance and justice in their neighborhoods, states, and nation as an essential part of living out the call of Jesus. Drew provides incisive insights into Scripture and history, along with illuminating personal stories, to help us identify how the witness of the church has become mangled by Christendom, white supremacy, and religious nationalism. He provides a wide range of options for congregations seeking to give witness to Jesus' ethic of love for and solidarity with the vulnerable. At a time when many feel disillusioned and distressed, Drew calls the church to action, offering a way forward that is deeply rooted in the life and witness of Jesus. Drew's testimony is powerful, personal, and profound, serving as a compass that points the church to the future and offers us a path toward meaningful social change and a more faithful witness to the way of Jesus. (Buy Drew's new book [here](http://https://www.amazon.com/Who-Will-Be-Witness-Deliverance/dp/1513806580/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=who+will+be+a+witness&qid=1599640684&s=books&sr=1-1).) This conversation discusses the final chapter - Chapter Nine - of ***Who Will Be a Witness*** with Pastor Mike McBride. Pastor Michael McBride (known as “Pastor Mike”) is a native of San Francisco and has been active in ministry for over 20 years. Pastor McBride's commitment to holistic ministry can be seen through his leadership roles in both the church and community organizations. A graduate of Duke University’s Divinity School, with a Master of Divinity with an emphasis in Ethics and Public Policy, Pastor McBride founded The Way Christian Center in West Berkeley, where he presently serves as the Lead Pastor. In March 2012, he became the Director for the Lifelines to Healing/LIVE FREE Campaign with Faith In Action, a campaign led by hundreds of faith congregations throughout the United States committed to addressing gun violence and mass incarceration of young people of color. He is one of the national leaders in the movement to implement public health and community centered gun violence prevention programs, which have contributed in 50% reductions of gun related homicides in Oakland and many other cities across the country. He is a co-founder of Community Justice Reform Coalition and the National Black Brown Gun Violence Prevention Consortium which work to center black and brown gun violence prevention practitioners and scale up life-saving interventions related to urban and communal violence. Regarded as a national faith leader, active in the Ferguson uprisings and many subsequent uprisings, he helps bridge, train and support millennials and religious institutions working on racial justice and black liberation. Pastor McBride has served on a number of local and national task forces with the White House and Department of Justice regarding gun violence prevention, boys and men of color and police-community relationships. In 2016 he was appointed as an Advisor on President Obama’s Faith Based Advisory Council for Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships. He has been a frequent contributor to the New York Times, the Washington Post, MSNBC, CNN, the Huffington Post and many other media outlets providing commentary on issues related to faith and racial justice. He is married to Cherise McBride and they have two beautiful daughters, Sarai...

As a special bonus for our listeners, we have created a series to commemorate Inverse Podcast co-host Dr Drew Hart's brand new book *Who Will Be a Witness: Igniting Activism For God's Justice, Love and Deliverance.* In these additional episodes we will interview friends and co-workers to discuss chapter by chapter Drew's new book. These conversations were recorded in community with friends from around the world as past of Inverse's ongoing work to create formation experiences that deepen our witness to God's justice, love and deliverance. *Who Will Be a Witness* offers a vision for communities of faith to organize for deliverance and justice in their neighborhoods, states, and nation as an essential part of living out the call of Jesus. Drew provides incisive insights into Scripture and history, along with illuminating personal stories, to help us identify how the witness of the church has become mangled by Christendom, white supremacy, and religious nationalism. He provides a wide range of options for congregations seeking to give witness to Jesus' ethic of love for and solidarity with the vulnerable. At a time when many feel disillusioned and distressed, Drew calls the church to action, offering a way forward that is deeply rooted in the life and witness of Jesus. Drew's testimony is powerful, personal, and profound, serving as a compass that points the church to the future and offers us a path toward meaningful social change and a more faithful witness to the way of Jesus. (Buy Drew's new book [here](http://https://www.amazon.com/Who-Will-Be-Witness-Deliverance/dp/1513806580/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=who+will+be+a+witness&qid=1599640684&s=books&sr=1-1).) This conversation discusses Chapter Eight of ***Who Will Be a Witness*** with Rev. Michael-Ray Mathews. Michael-Ray Mathews (he/him/his) brings over 30 years of leadership experience – as a senior pastor, grassroots leader, psalmist and community organizer – to his work as Deputy Director for [Faith in Action](http://https://www.faithinaction.org/) (formerly PICO National Network). He is the host of the [Prophetic Resistance Podcast](https://propheticresistancepodcast.libsyn.com/website), where he engages multi-faith leaders in conversations about cultivating communities of belonging and sacred resistance to injustice. Rev. Mathews is president of the [Alliance of Baptists](https://www.allianceofbaptists.org/), a progressive movement for justice and healing, and co-editor of *Trouble the Waters: A Christian Resource for the Work of Racial Justice*. A visiting professor of public theology at [American Baptist Seminary of the West ](http://bst.edu/)in Berkeley, he is also a senior fellow at Auburn Seminary in New York. Michael-Ray is co-founder of and public theologian-in-residence with [Sympara](http://www.sympara.org/), a multifaith/interspiritual community of practice, repurposing spiritual assets for the common good. Follow Michael-Ray on [Twitter](http://twitter.com/mrmathews): @mrmathews, [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/mrmathews): /mrmathews, and Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/michaelraymathews/): @michaelraymathews. Follow Drew Hart on [Instagram](http://http://instagram.com/druhart) and [Twitter](http://https://twitter.com/druhart) @druhart. Follow Jarrod McKenna on [Instagram](http://https://www.instagram.com/jarrodmckenna) and [Twitter](http://jarrodmckenna) @jarrodmckenna Music: We Fly Free by Julie Kerr @juliekkerr

As a special bonus for our listeners, we have created a series to commemorate Inverse Podcast co-host Dr Drew Hart's brand new book *Who Will Be a Witness: Igniting Activism For God's Justice, Love and Deliverance.* In these additional episodes we will interview friends and co-workers to discuss chapter by chapter Drew's new book. These conversations were recorded in community with friends from around the world as past of Inverse's ongoing work to create formation experiences that deepen our witness to God's justice, love and deliverance. *Who Will Be a Witness* offers a vision for communities of faith to organize for deliverance and justice in their neighborhoods, states, and nation as an essential part of living out the call of Jesus. Drew provides incisive insights into Scripture and history, along with illuminating personal stories, to help us identify how the witness of the church has become mangled by Christendom, white supremacy, and religious nationalism. He provides a wide range of options for congregations seeking to give witness to Jesus' ethic of love for and solidarity with the vulnerable. At a time when many feel disillusioned and distressed, Drew calls the church to action, offering a way forward that is deeply rooted in the life and witness of Jesus. Drew's testimony is powerful, personal, and profound, serving as a compass that points the church to the future and offers us a path toward meaningful social change and a more faithful witness to the way of Jesus. (Buy Drew's new book [here](http://https://www.amazon.com/Who-Will-Be-Witness-Deliverance/dp/1513806580/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=who+will+be+a+witness&qid=1599640684&s=books&sr=1-1).) This conversation discusses Chapter Seven of ***Who Will Be a Witness*** with Don Golden. Don Golden is the co-author of **Jesus Wants to Save Christians: A Manifesto for the Church in Exile** (with Rob Bell) and and helped empower churches to serve the world’s poorest with both World Vision and World Relief. His passion to help churches help the poor and oppressed has taken him to more than 60 countries. Prior to his current role, he served as lead pastor of Mars Hill Bible Church from 2005 to 2008. Don is also an Impact Investing Strategist and Fundraising Consultant with 30 years of experience in faith-based fundraising in over 70 countries. As a minister in Baltimore, Maryland, and as the former executive director at Red Letter Christians, Don helps activate faith communities in causes of social justice and economic inclusion. He has been featured on National Public Radio, Voice of America, and The New York Times. He has been published in CNN’s Belief Blog, Religion News Service, Dallas Morning News, and Huffington Post. Follow Don on [Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/donrgolden/ ) and [Twitter](https://twitter.com/donrgolden ) @donrgolden Follow Drew Hart on [Instagram](http://http://instagram.com/druhart) and [Twitter](http://https://twitter.com/druhart) @druhart. Follow Jarrod McKenna on [Instagram](http://https://www.instagram.com/jarrodmckenna) and [Twitter](http://jarrodmckenna) @jarrodmckenna Music: We Fly Free by Julie Kerr @juliekkerr

As a special bonus for our listeners, we have created a series to commemorate Inverse Podcast co-host Dr Drew Hart's brand new book *Who Will Be a Witness: Igniting Activism For God's Justice, Love and Deliverance.* In these additional episodes we will interview friends and co-workers to discuss chapter by chapter Drew's new book. These conversations were recorded in community with friends from around the world as past of Inverse's ongoing work to create formation experiences that deepen our witness to God's justice, love and deliverance. *Who Will Be a Witness* offers a vision for communities of faith to organize for deliverance and justice in their neighborhoods, states, and nation as an essential part of living out the call of Jesus. Drew provides incisive insights into Scripture and history, along with illuminating personal stories, to help us identify how the witness of the church has become mangled by Christendom, white supremacy, and religious nationalism. He provides a wide range of options for congregations seeking to give witness to Jesus' ethic of love for and solidarity with the vulnerable. At a time when many feel disillusioned and distressed, Drew calls the church to action, offering a way forward that is deeply rooted in the life and witness of Jesus. Drew's testimony is powerful, personal, and profound, serving as a compass that points the church to the future and offers us a path toward meaningful social change and a more faithful witness to the way of Jesus. (Buy Drew's new book [here](http://https://www.amazon.com/Who-Will-Be-Witness-Deliverance/dp/1513806580/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=who+will+be+a+witness&qid=1599640684&s=books&sr=1-1).) This fifth conversation discusses Chapter Six of ***Who Will Be a Witness*** with pastor, activist, worship leader and author Sandra Maria Van Opstal. Sandra Maria Van Opstal, a second-generation Latina, pastors at Grace and Peace Community on the west-side of Chicago. She is a preacher, liturgist and activist who re-imagining the intersection of worship and justice. In her fifteen years with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, Sandra mobilized thousands of college students for God’s mission of reconciliation and justice in the world. Sandra served as Director of Worship for the Urbana Missions Conference, Chicago Urban Program Director, Latino National Leadership Team (LaFe), and Northwestern University Team leader (Multiethnic fellowship). Sandra’s influence has also reached many others through her leadership and preaching on topics such of worship and formation, justice, racial identity and reconciliation, and global mission. She has been featured at Wheaton College, North Park University, The Justice Conference, Evangelical Covenant conferences, Willow Creek Association conferences, and various churches. Sandra serves as a board member for Evangelicals for Justice and the Christian Community Development Association. Sandra was also the Worship Director for the IFES World Assemblyin Mexico 2015, Lausanne Younger Leaders Gathering in Jarkarta 2016 and Global Gathering in South Africa 2018. In addition to her ministry experience, Sandra holds a Masters of Divinity from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in Illinois and has been published in multiple journals. She has authored *God’s Graffiti Devotional, Still Evangelical, The Mission of Worship *and *The Next Worship.* Follow Sandra on [Twitter](http://https://twitter.com/sandravanopstal) and [Instagram](http://https://www.instagram.com/sandravanopstal/) @sandravanopstal. Follow Drew Hart on [Instagram](http://http://instagram.com/druhart) and [Twitter](http://https://twitter.com/druhart) @druhart. Follow Jarrod McKenna on [Instagram](http://https://www.instagram.com/jarrodmckenna) and [Twitter](http://jarrodmckenna) @jarrodmckenna

As a special bonus for our listeners, we have created a series to commemorate Inverse Podcast co-host Dr Drew Hart's brand new book *Who Will Be a Witness: Igniting Activism For God's Justice, Love and Deliverance.* In these additional episodes we will interview friends and co-workers to discuss chapter by chapter Drew's new book. These conversations were recorded in community with friends from around the world as past of Inverse's ongoing work to create formation experiences that deepen our witness to God's justice, love and deliverance. *Who Will Be a Witness* offers a vision for communities of faith to organize for deliverance and justice in their neighborhoods, states, and nation as an essential part of living out the call of Jesus. Drew provides incisive insights into Scripture and history, along with illuminating personal stories, to help us identify how the witness of the church has become mangled by Christendom, white supremacy, and religious nationalism. He provides a wide range of options for congregations seeking to give witness to Jesus' ethic of love for and solidarity with the vulnerable. At a time when many feel disillusioned and distressed, Drew calls the church to action, offering a way forward that is deeply rooted in the life and witness of Jesus. Drew's testimony is powerful, personal, and profound, serving as a compass that points the church to the future and offers us a path toward meaningful social change and a more faithful witness to the way of Jesus. (Buy Drew's new book [here](http://https://www.amazon.com/Who-Will-Be-Witness-Deliverance/dp/1513806580/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=who+will+be+a+witness&qid=1599640684&s=books&sr=1-1).) This fifth conversation discusses Chapter Five of ***Who Will Be a Witness*** with pastor and author Daniel Hill. Daniel Hill writes, "I am a lifelong Chicagoan, a pastor at River City Community Church, and an author who writes a lot about resisting and confronting white supremacy from a faith lens. Our church was founded in January of 2003 in the west Humboldt Park neighborhood of Chicago, and is centered on the core values of worship, reconciliation, and neighborhood development. We long to see increased spiritual renewal as well as social and economic justice in the Humboldt Park neighborhood and entire city, demonstrating compassion and alleviating poverty as tangible expressions of the Kingdom of God. It is also through the gift of this faith community that I have learned to see the profound historical and spiritual impact of the stronghold of white supremacy, and where I have been challenged to broaden and deepen my understanding of discipleship in the hopes of becoming a serious enough Christ follower who is able to meaningfully participate with those who have risen up in defiance of this evil principality. The lessons learned in this journey have been captured in a pair of books on race. The first, White Awake, explores the barriers that white people tend to face – white Christians specifically – when we attempt to awaken to and understand white supremacy through a faith lens. I spend a lot of time here addressing the internal defenses that are bound to go off when this journey is taken seriously, and I chart out a path for developing a resilient spirit that steadfastly moves towards truth, justice, and equity. The second, White Lies, further builds out the path for the white Christian who longs to actively participate in the resistance and confrontation of white supremacy. I spend a lot of time here exploring why it is so hard to tell the truth about race, as well as expose the lies that sustain it, within white, Christian, Bible-believing environments. I then propose nine practices that position us for engaging in this task." Follow Daniel on [Twitter] (http://https://twitter.com/danielhill1336) and [Instagram] (http://https://www.instagram.com/danielhill1336/) @danielhill1336. Follow Drew Hart on [Instagram](http://http://instagram....

If you need a space, come join us as we dialogue in our post-election roundtable with Lisa Sharon Harper and Dr. David Gushee. Together, we'll consider this moment, and what it means for our faith, democracy, and commitment to pursuing shalom and the common good.

As a special bonus for our listeners, we have created a series to commemorate Inverse Podcast co-host Dr Drew Hart's brand new book *Who Will Be a Witness: Igniting Activism For God's Justice, Love and Deliverance.* In these additional episodes we will interview friends and co-workers to discuss chapter by chapter Drew's new book. These conversations were recorded in community with friends from around the world as past of Inverse's ongoing work to create formation experiences that deepen our witness to God's justice, love and deliverance. *Who Will Be a Witness* offers a vision for communities of faith to organize for deliverance and justice in their neighborhoods, states, and nation as an essential part of living out the call of Jesus. Drew provides incisive insights into Scripture and history, along with illuminating personal stories, to help us identify how the witness of the church has become mangled by Christendom, white supremacy, and religious nationalism. He provides a wide range of options for congregations seeking to give witness to Jesus' ethic of love for and solidarity with the vulnerable. At a time when many feel disillusioned and distressed, Drew calls the church to action, offering a way forward that is deeply rooted in the life and witness of Jesus. Drew's testimony is powerful, personal, and profound, serving as a compass that points the church to the future and offers us a path toward meaningful social change and a more faithful witness to the way of Jesus. (Buy Drew's new book [here](http://https://www.amazon.com/Who-Will-Be-Witness-Deliverance/dp/1513806580/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=who+will+be+a+witness&qid=1599640684&s=books&sr=1-1).) This fifth conversation discusses Chapter Four of ***Who Will Be a Witness*** with preacher, activist, author and filmmaker Reverend Dr. Otis Moss III. Rev. Dr. Otis Moss III is senior pastor of Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago. He is a preacher, activist, author and filmmaker with an eye toward justice and equality, as evidenced through the gospel of Jesus Christ. He founded the Unashamed Media Group, a justice centered faith-based agency committed to producing and curating stories to inspire the heart and challenge the mind. His most recent book is Blue Note **Preaching in a Post-Soul World: Finding Hope in an Age of Despair (**2015). Dr. Moss is ordained in the Progressive National Baptist Convention and the United Church of Christ. With civil rights advocacy in his DNA, Rev. Dr. Otis Moss III built his ministry on community advancement and social justice activism. Dr. Moss is part of a new generation of ministers committed to preaching a prophetic message of love and justice, which he believes are inseparable companions that form the foundation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He was recently recognized as one of the “12 Most Effective Preachers in the English-Speaking World” by Baylor University’s George W. Truett Theological Seminary. As part of his community engagement through Trinity United Church of Christ, Dr. Moss led the team that came up with the “My Life Matters” curriculum; which includes the viral video, “Get Home Safely: 10 Rules of Survival” created in the aftermath of Michael Brown’s death at the hands of Ferguson, Missouri police. A native of Cleveland, Ohio, Dr. Moss is an honors graduate of Morehouse College. He earned a Master of Divinity form Yale Divinity School and a Doctor of Ministry degree from Chicago Theological Seminary. He returned to Yale in 2014 to present the famed Lyman Beecher lectures. The three-day event included an in-depth discourse on the subject of “The Blue Note Gospel: Preaching the Prophetic Blues in a Post Soul World.” The lectures, which demonstrated a homiletic blueprint for prophetic preaching in the 21st century, were the foundation of his latest book. With a unique gift to communicate across generations, Dr. Moss’ creative Bible-based messages have inspired young and old alike. His in...

As a special bonus for our listeners, we have created a series to commemorate Inverse Podcast co-host Dr Drew Hart's brand new book *Who Will Be a Witness: Igniting Activism For God's Justice, Love and Deliverance.* In these additional episodes we will interview friends and co-workers to discuss chapter by chapter Drew's new book. These conversations were recorded in community with friends from around the world as past of Inverse's ongoing work to create formation experiences that deepen our witness to God's justice, love and deliverance. *Who Will Be a Witness* offers a vision for communities of faith to organize for deliverance and justice in their neighborhoods, states, and nation as an essential part of living out the call of Jesus. Drew provides incisive insights into Scripture and history, along with illuminating personal stories, to help us identify how the witness of the church has become mangled by Christendom, white supremacy, and religious nationalism. He provides a wide range of options for congregations seeking to give witness to Jesus' ethic of love for and solidarity with the vulnerable. At a time when many feel disillusioned and distressed, Drew calls the church to action, offering a way forward that is deeply rooted in the life and witness of Jesus. Drew's testimony is powerful, personal, and profound, serving as a compass that points the church to the future and offers us a path toward meaningful social change and a more faithful witness to the way of Jesus. (Buy Drew's new book [here](http://https://www.amazon.com/Who-Will-Be-Witness-Deliverance/dp/1513806580/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=who+will+be+a+witness&qid=1599640684&s=books&sr=1-1).) This fourth conversation discusses Chapter Three of Who Will Be a Witness with minister and podcast host Brandi Miller. Based out of the Northwest, Brandi Miller is a staff member and justice program director with InterVarsity. She pens an op-ed for the HuffPost at the intersection of faith, justice, and politics to curate content that moves the Church forward in living out the holistic gospel. She also is the creator and host of a podcast called **Reclaiming My Theology**. She says of the podcast, "**Reclaiming My Theology** is a podcast and community taking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress. For over a decade, I have been exploring, unlearing, and reimagining my faith outside of systemic oppression and want to bring you along with me! Each season of the podcast will be a deep dive into a form of systemic oppression and ask how the values of oppressive ideas shape our hearts, minds, politics, and lived experiences. There are so many things to reclaim our theology from: white supremacy, patriarchy and misogyny, capitalism, homophobia, ableism and more." Follow Brandi on [Twitter](https://twitter.com/BrandiNico) and [Instagram](http://https://www.instagram.com/brandinico) @brandinico and support her on Patreon [here](http://https://www.patreon.com/brandinico ) @brandinico.

David Dark is a lifelong educator in Nashville. He teaches among incarcerated communities and is on the faculty of the College of Theology at Belmont University. He's also the author of The Possibility of America, The Sacredness of Questioning Everything, & Everyday Apocalypse. Follow David Dark on [Twitter](http://https://twitter.com/DavidDark) @DavidDark. Follow Drew Hart on [Instagram](http://http://instagram.com/druhart) and [Twitter](http://https://twitter.com/druhart) @druhart. Follow Jarrod McKenna on [Instagram](http://https://www.instagram.com/jarrodmckenna) and [Twitter](http://jarrodmckenna) @jarrodmckenna

As a special bonus for our listeners, we have created a series to commemorate Inverse Podcast co-host Dr Drew Hart's brand new book *Who Will Be a Witness: Igniting Activism For God's Justice, Love and Deliverance.* In these additional episodes we will interview friends and co-workers to discuss chapter by chapter Drew's new book. These conversations were recorded in community with friends from around the world as past of Inverse's ongoing work to create formation experiences that deepen our witness to God's justice, love and deliverance. *Who Will Be a Witness* offers a vision for communities of faith to organize for deliverance and justice in their neighborhoods, states, and nation as an essential part of living out the call of Jesus. Drew provides incisive insights into Scripture and history, along with illuminating personal stories, to help us identify how the witness of the church has become mangled by Christendom, white supremacy, and religious nationalism. He provides a wide range of options for congregations seeking to give witness to Jesus' ethic of love for and solidarity with the vulnerable. At a time when many feel disillusioned and distressed, Drew calls the church to action, offering a way forward that is deeply rooted in the life and witness of Jesus. Drew's testimony is powerful, personal, and profound, serving as a compass that points the church to the future and offers us a path toward meaningful social change and a more faithful witness to the way of Jesus. (Buy Drew's new book [here](http://https://www.amazon.com/Who-Will-Be-Witness-Deliverance/dp/1513806580/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=who+will+be+a+witness&qid=1599640684&s=books&sr=1-1).) This third conversation discusses Chapter Two of Who Will Be a Witness with minister and author Dominique DuBois Gilliard. Dominique DuBois Gilliard is the Director of Racial Righteousness and Reconciliation for the Love Mercy Do Justice (LMDJ) initiative of the Evangelical Covenant Church (ECC). He is the author of Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice that Restores, which won the 2018 Book of the Year Award for InterVarsity Press. Gilliard also serves on the board of directors for the Christian Community Development Association and Evangelicals for Justice. In 2015, he was selected as one of the ECC’s “40 Under 40” leaders to watch, and the Huffington Post named him one of the “Black Christian Leaders Changing the World.” An ordained minister, Gilliard has served in pastoral ministry in Atlanta, Chicago, and Oakland. He was executive pastor of New Hope Covenant Church in Oakland, California and also served in Oakland as the associate pastor of Convergence Covenant Church. He was also a campus minister at North Park University and the racial righteousness director for ECC’s ministry initiatives in the Pacific Southwest Conference. Gilliard earned a bachelor’s degree in African American Studies from Georgia State University and a master’s degree in history from East Tennessee State University, with an emphasis on race, gender, and class in the United States. He also earned an MDiv from North Park Seminary, where he served as an adjunct professor teaching Christian ethics, theology, and reconciliation. Follow Dominque on [Twitter](http://https://twitter.com/DDGilliard) @DDGilliard and [Instagram](http://https://www.instagram.com/dominiquedgilliard/) @dominiquedgilliard Follow Drew Hart on [Instagram](http://http://instagram.com/druhart) and [Twitter](http://https://twitter.com/druhart) @druhart. Follow Jarrod McKenna on [Instagram](http://https://www.instagram.com/jarrodmckenna) and [Twitter](http://jarrodmckenna) @jarrodmckenna Song: *We Fly Free* by Julie Kerr

As a special bonus for our listeners, we have created a series to commemorate Inverse Podcast co-host Dr Drew Hart's brand new book *Who Will Be a Witness: Igniting Activism For God's Justice, Love and Deliverance.* In these additional episodes we will interview friends and co-workers to discuss chapter by chapter Drew's new book. These conversations were recorded in community with friends from around the world as past of Inverse's ongoing work to create formation experiences that deepen our witness to God's justice, love and deliverance. *Who Will Be a Witness* offers a vision for communities of faith to organize for deliverance and justice in their neighborhoods, states, and nation as an essential part of living out the call of Jesus. Drew provides incisive insights into Scripture and history, along with illuminating personal stories, to help us identify how the witness of the church has become mangled by Christendom, white supremacy, and religious nationalism. He provides a wide range of options for congregations seeking to give witness to Jesus' ethic of love for and solidarity with the vulnerable. At a time when many feel disillusioned and distressed, Drew calls the church to action, offering a way forward that is deeply rooted in the life and witness of Jesus. Drew's testimony is powerful, personal, and profound, serving as a compass that points the church to the future and offers us a path toward meaningful social change and a more faithful witness to the way of Jesus. (Buy Drew's new book [here](http://https://www.amazon.com/Who-Will-Be-Witness-Deliverance/dp/1513806580/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=who+will+be+a+witness&qid=1599640684&s=books&sr=1-1).) This first conversation discusses Chapter One of Who Will Be a Witness with activist and author, D.L Mayfield D. L. Mayfield lives and writes on the outskirts of Portland, Oregan with her husband and two small children. Her first book of essays, *Assimilate or Go Home: Notes from a Failed Missionary on Rediscovering Faith* was released by HarperOne in 2016. Her second book, *The Myth of the American Dream: Reflections on Affluence, Autonomy, Safety, and Power* was released in April 2020. Her writing has appeared in a variety of places, including *McSweeneys, Christianity Today, Sojourners, The Washington Post, Image Journal, Vox, and The Rumpus*, among many others. She has been very active in the BLM protests in Portland. Her previous conversation entitled The Bad News of Jesus (and Covid 19) on the Inverse Podcast can be found [here](http://https://inverse.podiant.co/e/d-l-mayfield-the-bad-news-of-jesus-and-covid-19-385ff9a08d8eb8/). Follow D.L. Mayfield on [Twitter](http://https://twitter.com/d_l_mayfield) and [Instagram](http://https://www.instagram.com/d_l_mayfield/) @d_l_mayfield Follow Drew Hart on [Instagram](http://http://instagram.com/druhart) and [Twitter](http://https://twitter.com/druhart) @druhart. Follow Jarrod McKenna on [Instagram](http://https://www.instagram.com/jarrodmckenna) and [Twitter](http://jarrodmckenna) @jarrodmckenna Song: *We Fly Free* by Julie Kerr

As a special bonus for our listeners, we have created a series to commemorate Inverse Podcast co-host Dr Drew Hart's brand new book *Who Will Be a Witness: Igniting Activism For God's Justice, Love and Deliverance.* In these additional episodes we will interview friends and co-workers to discuss chapter by chapter Drew's new book. These conversations were recorded in community with friends from around the world as past of Inverse's ongoing work to create formation experiences that deepen our witness to God's justice, love and deliverance. *Who Will Be a Witness* offers a vision for communities of faith to organize for deliverance and justice in their neighborhoods, states, and nation as an essential part of living out the call of Jesus. Drew provides incisive insights into Scripture and history, along with illuminating personal stories, to help us identify how the witness of the church has become mangled by Christendom, white supremacy, and religious nationalism. He provides a wide range of options for congregations seeking to give witness to Jesus' ethic of love for and solidarity with the vulnerable. At a time when many feel disillusioned and distressed, Drew calls the church to action, offering a way forward that is deeply rooted in the life and witness of Jesus. Drew's testimony is powerful, personal, and profound, serving as a compass that points the church to the future and offers us a path toward meaningful social change and a more faithful witness to the way of Jesus. (Buy Drew's new book [here](http://https://www.amazon.com/Who-Will-Be-Witness-Deliverance/dp/1513806580/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=who+will+be+a+witness&qid=1599640684&s=books&sr=1-1).) This first conversation discusses the Introduction of Who Will Be a Witness with activist, author, and speaker Shane Claiborne. Shane worked with Mother Teresa in Calcutta, and founded The Simple Way in Philadelphia. He heads up Red Letter Christians, a movement of folks who are committed to living "as if Jesus meant the things he said." Shane is a champion for grace which has led him to jail advocating for the homeless, and to places like Iraq and Afghanistan to stand against war. Now grace fuels his passion to end the death penalty and help stop gun violence. Shane’s books include Jesus for President, Red Letter Revolution, Common Prayer, Follow Me to Freedom, Jesus, Bombs and Ice Cream, Becoming the Answer to Our Prayers, Executing Grace, his classic The Irresistible Revolution, and his newest book, Beating Guns. He has been featured in a number of films including "Another World Is Possible" and "Ordinary Radicals." His books have been translated into more than a dozen languages. Shane speaks over one hundred times a year, nationally and internationally. His work has appeared in Esquire, SPIN, Christianity Today, TIME, and The Wall Street Journal, and he has been on everything from Fox News and Al Jazeera to CNN and NPR. He’s given academic lectures at Harvard, Princeton, Liberty, Duke, and Notre Dame. Shane speaks regularly at denominational gatherings, festivals, and conferences around the globe. Follow Shane on [Twitter](http://https://twitter.com/ShaneClaiborne). Follow Drew Hart on [Instagram](http://http://instagram.com/druhart) and [Twitter](http://https://twitter.com/druhart) @druhart. Follow Jarrod McKenna on [Instagram](http://https://www.instagram.com/jarrodmckenna) and [Twitter](http://jarrodmckenna) @jarrodmckenna Song: *We Fly Free* by Julie Kerr

Marlena is a writer, deep thinker, and speaker who is passionate about the eternal implications of our life in God. In this conversation, Marlena explores Philippians 2:1-16 in light of her new book, "The Way Up Is Down: Becoming Yourself by Forgetting Yourself." In this book, Marlena describes the process of emptying herself that allows her to move upward toward God and become the true self that God calls her to. Drawing on the rich traditions of Eastern and Western Christian saints, she shares stories and insights that have enlivened her transformation. For Marlena, formation and justice always intertwine on the path to a balanced life of both action and contemplation. She is a lover of beauty - especially the beauty of her family, others, and creation. Marlena is a justice seeker—trying to overcome evil with good. She is most concerned with those who profess to follow Jesus but speak and behave so unlike him. She includes herself in the mix and therefore seeks to bridge the gap between what Christians profess to believe and how they live. She speaks regularly to congregations, university campuses, and to retreatants about the implications of following Jesus. Follow Marlena on [Twitter](http://https://twitter.com/MarlenaGraves) and [Instagram](http://https://www.instagram.com/marlena.graves/). Follow Drew Hart on [Instagram](http://http://instagram.com/druhart) and [Twitter](http://https://twitter.com/druhart) @druhart. Follow Jarrod McKenna on [Instagram](http://https://www.instagram.com/jarrodmckenna) and [Twitter](http://jarrodmckenna) @jarrodmckenna

Nekeisha Alayna Alexis is a Black Trinidadian woman, academic-activist situated in the U.S.A. who has worked on a number of issues affecting marginalized communities, from anti-war organizing in New York City to the ongoing efforts to restore a local community center in Elkhart. She writes, publishes, and speaks on racism and white supremacy, intersectionality, and animal liberation. A theological Anabaptist with meaningful experiences in Catholic, non-denominational, and African Methodist Episcopal (AME) traditions, Nekeisha helps to maintain “Jesus Radicals”, which is focused on undoing oppressions from a framework of anarchist politics and liberative Christianity. Read more about Nekeisha's work [here](http://https://www.ambs.edu/about/people/749314/nekeisha-alayna-alexis). Follow Drew Hart on [Instagram](http://http://instagram.com/druhart) and [Twitter](http://https://twitter.com/druhart) @druhart. Follow Jarrod McKenna on [Instagram](http://https://www.instagram.com/jarrodmckenna) and [Twitter](http://jarrodmckenna) @jarrodmckenna

Van Badham is Jordan Peterson’s favourite Marxist Christian to mock. Writer, Activist, co-host of the Weekly On Wednesday podcast and regular columnist for The Guardian, Van is a prolific voice for justice. In this episode, Drew and Jarrod discuss Luke 3:1-20 with Van, and discuss her faith, her love for Karl Marx, and her opposition to all forms of authoritarianism, as a Christian Marxist. Follow Van Badham on [Instagram](http://https://www.instagram.com/vanbadham/) and [Twitter](http://https://twitter.com/vanbadham) @vanbadham Follow Drew Hart on [Instagram](http://http://instagram.com/druhart) and [Twitter](http://https://twitter.com/druhart) @druhart Follow Jarrod McKenna on [Instagram](http://https://www.instagram.com/jarrodmckenna) and [Twitter](http://jarrodmckenna) @jarrodmckenna

In this moment we need to hear from Pastor Sandra Van Opstal. Celebrity worship pastors using their social media to shut down people lifting up Amos. Other celebrity worship leaders lead revivals that provide the soundtrack for Trump-style white supremacy that risks more lives during a pandemic that has claimed the lives of 163,000 people in the U.S.A. already. All this to sing over the top of people protesting injustices, sometimes literally in the places people like George Floyd have been murdered, without the family’s permission or the communities consent. When we thought of people to speak into this reality, the incredible work, witness and writing of our friend Pastor Sandra Van Opstal came to mind. Sandra Van Opstal latest book is called “The Next Worship” and captures some of her international leadership to see the church embrace every tribe and tongue as we become a worshiping people pursuing justice. Pastor Sandra is a second-generation Latina and the co-founder and Executive Director of Chasing Justice and Executive Pastor for Grace and Peace Community. Sandra Van Opstal lives on the west-side of Chicago [USA] with her husband and two boys where she works as a liturgist, author, pastor and justice activist at the intersection of poverty, race and global mission. https://chasingjustice.com/about/ Featured on this episode: Pastor Sandra Van Opstal Drew Hart Jarrod McKenna

Idris Elba in his introduction to Mick Sheldrick’s new book ‘FROM IDEAS TO IMPACT: A PLAYBOOK FOR INFLUENCING AND IMPLEMENTING CHANGE IN A DIVIDED WORLD‘ writes, “To say he’s has had an impact on our life would be an understatement.” Join us live this week to find out why and how you can contribute and learn from Mick’s work that has impacted millions of people in over a hundred and fifty countries and helped secure over *40 BILLION* in support for local and regional organizations working to provide access to essential resources such as healthcare, education, and climate resilience.

Michael Sheldrick is a driving force behind the efforts of Global Citizen to end extreme poverty. With a career that spans the world of pop and policy, Michael has worked with an impressive roster of international artists such as Beyoncé, Coldplay, Sabrina and Idris Elba, Lady Gaga, Miley Cyrus, Priyanka Chopra, Rihanna and Usher, as well as prominent political leaders including Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, Barbados’ Prime Minister Mia Mottley, former UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, and former Australian Prime Ministers Julia Gillard and Kevin Rudd.

As a Co-Founder and Chief Policy, Impact, and Government Affairs Officer, he leads the organization's campaigns to mobilize support from governments, businesses, and foundations.

He has co-produced some of the world's most impactful social campaigns and events, including the annual Global Citizen Festival in New York, the Guinness World Record-winning virtual concert One World: Together At Home, and the Nelson Mandela 2018 centennial celebration. These initiatives have reached millions of people in over a hundred and fifty countries and helped secure over forty billion in support for local and regional organizations working to provide access to essential resources such as healthcare, education, and climate resilience.

Patricia Ho is the founder of the Hong Kong Dignity Institute, a trauma informed approach to defending and advancing the rights of vulnerable people including asylum seekers/refugees, transgender persons, domestic helpers, sex workers and victims of human trafficking by challenging government policies and law. It’s a wonderful look behind the scenes at the spirituality that makes this human rights hero, mother of 3, law firm partner, wife to a pastor, and disciple of Jesus, tick.

As you can hear from Drew and Jarrod’s excitement, they *loved* this episode. Dr. Reggie Williams is a legend. His book **“Bonhoeffer’s Black Jesus: Harlem Renaissance Theology and an Ethic of Resistance”** is an award winning work reconsidering the shape of Dietrich Bonhoeffer resistance to the Nazi’s through the influence of his experience of the Black Church tradition in America. In short Dr. Reggie Williams makes clear Eric Metaxis full of skubala and you can’t understand Bonhoeffer without situating his witness as a wrestle with the Powers of white supremacy.

Theologian Dr Randy Woodley is a Keetoowah Cherokee First Nations elder, University professor, author and leader. He generously invites us to decolonise our Christology by seeing Christ as Creator, decolonise our understanding of the ‘kingdom’ by seeing it as the healing of the ‘community of creation’, and to decolonise our economics by taking Jesus’ Jubilee program seriously.

Brittney Spencer is a songwriter-singer who sung and recorded with United Pursuit, Carrie Underwood, Carl Thomas, Jason Nelson and Twinkie Clark of The Clark Sisters, to name a few. While working as a minister of music at a progressive historic Black Church (AME) in Baltimore, Brittney was exposed to the role of culture in music, religion and much of her life’s experiences that led to her storytelling finding expression as part of the Common Hymnal family since 2016. Malcolm du Plessis has been relentless in calling others into the decolonising of the worship movement and for doors of dignity to be unlocked for more communities and ethnicities to contribute toward the ‘common’ hymnal. Malcolm has straddled the worlds of prophetic Christianity and showbiz for over thirty years initially as an instigator of multi-ethnic, multi-lingual worship that fused praise and protest in the apartheid era of his native South Africa. “I moved from one South Africa to another” and now in the USA Malcolm continues to lead as mentor to a new generation in activists and artists helping develop top 40 songwriters. You can see more about Common Hymnal here: commonhymnal.com The song playing at the end of this episode is called Rose Petals. Visit their Youtbe channel here to see more: https://youtu.be/P-3KikfQo_E #commonhymnal #inversepodcast

Pastor Michael McBride is a nationally respected faith leader who was active in the Ferguson uprisings and many subsequent uprisings including this current global #BlackLivesMatter moment. “Pastor Mike” as he’s affectionately know on this streets, helps bridge, train and support millennials and religious institutions working on racial justice and black liberation. He has been a frequent contributor to the New York Times, The Washington Post, MSNBC, CNN, The Huffington Post and many other media outlets providing commentary on issues related to faith and racial justice. In 2016 he was appointed as an Advisor on President Obama’s Faith Based Advisory Council for Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships. His leadership includes the movement to implement public health and community centered gun violence prevention programs. The campaigns that he has co-led have contributed to 30-50% reductions of gun related homicides in Oakland, CA, Stockton, CA, Camden, NJ, Baton Rouge, LA, and many other cities across the country. He is the Founder and Lead Pastor of The Way Church in Berkeley, CA. He also serves as the Director of Faith in Action’s LIVE FREE gun violence prevention campaign. He is a Co-Founder of the Black Church PAC and the National Black Brown Gun Violence Prevention Consortium, which works to center black and brown gun violence prevention practitioners and scale up life-saving interventions related to urban and communal violence. Website: pastormikemcbride.com Twitter: @impastormike_ Follow Flewnt here: https://open.spotify.com/artist/1Z7NTJcWCg7WUuVLVxK9SW?si=n7BjzmgAQN6vKF0OT5MSIA

With our friends Brian Zahnd and Nobel Peace prize nominee John Dear we discuss this moment, Terrence Malick’s new film ‘An Hidden Life’ and the witness of Franziska and Franz Jägerstätter. Before our discussion we hear from the streets of #BlackLivesMatter protests, this time from long term Aboriginal activist, Aunty Esther Montgomery on “everyone has a role to play” in this moment. With special thanks to www.peacockvisuals.com who made the short film found on our YouTube channel. Desmond Tutu nominated Rev John Dear for the Nobel Peace Prize for his tireless work for justice and peace. He is the author/editor of 30 books, including The Nonviolent Life, Lazarus Come Forth!, A Persistent Peace, Put Down Your Sword, Transfiguration, You Will Be My Witnesses, Living Peace, The Questions of Jesus and Mohandas Gandhi. Pastor Brian Zahnd co-founded with his wife Peri Word of Life Church in Saint Joseph, Missouri, USA and successfully led their large church into a deeper, more ancient expression of of Christian faith that pursues prayerful peacemaking that has become a model for many around the world. Brian is also the author of several books, including, Postcards from Babylon, Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God, Water to Wine, A Farewell To Mars, Beauty Will Save the World, and Unconditional?: The Call of Jesus to Radical Forgiveness. Find our videos on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxWe7PBBVBTfOT0SzcDKEVw Join our Integral Discipleship community on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/InVerse

Our friend Rev Michael-Ray Mathews brings over 30 years of leadership experience – as a senior pastor, grassroots leader, psalmist and community organizer – to his exploration of Mark 16:1-8 and tells us “Jesus ain’t in the church, get outside!” Rev Michael-Ray is the deputy Director for Faith in Action. We *love* his Prophetic Resistance Podcast, where he engages leaders in conversations about cultivating communities of sacred resistance to injustice. We start the episode hearing from Aunty Donna Nelson recorded at the Perth #BlackLivesMatter protest where she powerful addressed over 2,000 people calling for global solidarity and for us to connect the dots here in Australia. Find Prophetic Resistance Podcast here: https://propheticresistancepodcast.libsyn.com/website Visit our Youtube channel to watch some stunning visuals from our good friend Chad Peacock here: http://www.peacockvisuals.com Join our Integral Discipleship community on Patreon: patreon.com/InVerse

Whether sharing a stage with Nas, Talib Kweli, Dead Prez, and even the legendary Sir Elton John, or sharing his skills with kids in juvenile detention centres, hip hop artist L-FRESH the Lion commands respect. We discuss the kind of trouble Jesus causes at dinner tables, the politics of meals, his own deep cultural, ancestral, and spiritual roots in Sikhism and what he respects about faith in action. Join our Integral Discipleship community on Patreon: [patreon.com/InVerse](http://www.patreon.com/InVerse)

Richard Rohr describes James Alison as “Intellectual dynamite and spiritual joy”. N.T. Wright has said, “The lessons he draws are striking and at times controversial, but it's hard to see how one can disagree with him without denying the very foundations of the Christian faith.” While Rowan Williams has praised his work as marked by, “wit, clarity, depth and surprises.” In this episode we explore the reality, “it’s only as you’ve sunk into your complicity that you can be saved.” Join our Integral Discipleship community on Patreon: [patreon.com/InVerse](http://www.patreon.com/InVerse)

Lee Camp is funny! His new book "Scandalous Witness" is brilliant. Volf says, "With characteristic intelligence, humour, and grace, Lee Camp argues that the American church today has has earned itself the curious distinction of having largely 'destroyed its own witness.'" Drew Hart asks Lee what Jarrod was like as a student in 2001 before discussing Matthew 5:38-48. [leeccamp.com](http://www.leeccamp.com) Join our Integral Discipleship community on Patreon: [patreon.com/InVerse](http://www.patreon.com/InVerse)

Join us with Regent College’s Dr Mark Glanville as we discuss his new text, “Improvising Church”.

Dr Drew Hart wrote of Mark’s new book,

“Improvising Church is a harmony of scriptural insight and pastoral wisdom, soulfully explored. Drawing from the metaphors of jazz, Glanville calls Western churches in post-Christian contexts to embrace an improvisational journey shaped by the biblical narrative and the perception of artists within incarnational community that loves their place and its people. Like a musician in sync with our contextual rhythm, Glanville urges us to embrace our interconnectedness with creation, tying that to the need to confront the legacies of colonialism with courageous solidarity. This book resonates deeply, hits all the right notes, and will inspire you to embrace a new, transformative song to improvise with for our twenty-first-century witness."

Jarrod McKenna has said,

"Mark Glanville writes with a kind of humility, curiosity, creativity, and compassion that are not merely desired but required when learning from traditions that you've been graciously grafted into—be it from Moses or Miles Davis, Elijah or Ella Fitzgerald, Nathanael or Nina Simone, John Coltrane or Jesus, the Christ. Mark has experienced a 'love supreme' and is inviting us to take giant steps of communal improvisation and imagine somethin' else, an alternative to Christendom and its colonial legacy, something that looks like Jesus, something that is the shape of things to come."

Dr Danny Zacharias is a Cree man from Treaty 1 territory in the lands now called Canada. He serves as Professor of New Testament studies at Acadia Divinity College in Wolfville, Nova Scotia, where he lives with his wife and 4 children. He also serves as a professor with NAIITS Indigenous Learning Community.[DannyZacharias.net](http://dannyzacharias.net) Dr Mick Pope has a PhD in Meteorology, and is currently completing a Masters degree, examining Genesis 1-2 as a basis for ethics in the Anthropocene. He is the author of three books looking at climate change from a Christian perspective. Join our Integral Discipleship community on Patreon: [patreon.com/InVerse](http://www.patreon.com/InVerse)

A former Young Australian of the Year, my dear friend Akram Azimi overcame the challenges of a refugee background to study law, science and arts at the University of Western Australia. Raised a Muslim, he has had a keen fascination with Christianity and ‘the man riding a donkey’ that is its central figure. Over the last 10 years, he has taught science and law at W.A. universities and mentored young people from disadvantaged backgrounds. The co-founder of the NGO ‘I am the Other’ he has helped mobilise 25,000 Australians to change government policy on polio eradication which could see polio eradicated by 2018. Join our Integral Discipleship community on Patreon: [patreon.com/InVerse](http://www.patreon.com/InVerse)

D. L. Mayfield lives and writes on the outskirts of Portland, OR with her husband and two small children. Her first book of essays, "Assimilate or Go Home: Notes from a Failed Missionary on Rediscovering Faith" was released by HarperOne in 2016. Her second book, "The Myth of the American Dream: Reflections on Affluence, Autonomy, Safety, and Power" will be released in April 2020. Her writing has appeared in a variety of places, including McSweeneys, Christianity Today, Sojourners, The Washington Post, Image Journal, Vox, and The Rumpus, among many others. She is trying very hard to be a good neighbor. More from D. L. at [dlmayfield.com/](http://www.dlmayfield.com/) Join our Integral Discipleship community on Patreon: [patreon.com/InVerse](http://www.patreon.com/InVerse)

Rev. Dr. Otis Moss III has freedom preaching power in his DNA. The son of Civil Rights legend Rev. Dr. Otis Moss Jr., “OM3” is to his father as Kendrick Lamar is to John Coltrane: a Hop-Hop improvisation on genius contributing to new forms of greatness for a new generation. He is the Senior Pastor of Trinity United Church of Christ, a phenomenal foretaste of God’s reign on the South Side of Chicago, that Michelle Obama has recently reminded us in her memoir is where she and Barack Obama worshipped and were married. Yet Trinity is not just a church community that contributes to the formation of Presidents. Through the guidance of Rev Dr Otis Moss III, Trinity continues to be a living continuation of the civil rights movement that is ‘unapologetically black, unashamedly Christian’. OM3’s anointed preaching is unashamed in calling people to Christ and calling society to respond to the injustice of mass incarceration, environmental degradation, and economic inequality. In this episode Drew and Jarrod discuss with Rev. Dr. OM3 Isaiah 58 and reveal the name of Kat and Jarrod’s brand new baby boy. Follow OM3 on [Twitter](http://www.twitter.com/om3) Join Jarrod weekly in worship with Trinity online to hear OM3: [trinitychicago.org](http://www.trinitychicago.org) Join our Integral Discipleship community on Patreon: [patreon.com/InVerse](http://www.patreon.com/InVerse)

In lockdown? Got kids? We consider Deut. 6:4-9 with my dear friends Lusanda and Mahlatse Mashua from RZIM South Africa and Luke Norsworthy from Newsworthy with Norsworthy. Join our Integral Discipleship community on Patreon: [patreon.com/InVerse](http://www.patreon.com/InVerse)

We love Kelley Nikondeha. Her new book “DEFIANT: What the Women of Exodus Teach Us about Freedom” is out today. Get it!: [Kelley's book](http://www.amazon.com/Defiant-Women-Exodus-Teach-Freedom/dp/0802864295) As well as being a theologian and writer, Kelley co-director of [Communities of Hope](http://www.facebook.com/Communities-of-Hope-204498546283015/), a community development enterprise in Burundi. [kelleynikondeha.com](http://kelleynikondeha.com/) Support us on our [Patreon Page](http://www.patreon.com/inverse)

Pádraig Ó Tuama is one of my favourite people in the world. Here he opens up Luke 7:36-50. Pádraig is an accomplished poet, theologian, and mediator. He presents Poetry Unbound with On Being Studios and also has the role of Theologian in Residence for On Being with Krista Tippett. With Paul Doran, Pádraig co-founded the storytelling event Tenx9. For a list of the many more wonderful things he’s involved be sure to visit: [padraigotuama.com](http://www.padraigotuama.com) Support us on our [Patreon Page](http://www.patreon.com/inverse)

The book of Revelation is used by televangelist to do untold craziness. Yet our mate Dr. Wess Daniels’ new book “Resisting Empire” asks, "what if the book of Revelation was rescued from revenge fantasies to again encourage Christ-like communities to resist the dehumanising forces of empire?" C. Wess Daniels is the William R. Rogers Director of Friends Center & Quaker Studies at Guilford College. He lives in Greensboro, North Carolina with his wife, Emily, and their three children and three chickens. Wess is interested in strategizing better human interactions, spiritual development, and revitalization of tradition and community. Support us on our [Patreon Page](http://www.patreon.com/inverse)

My dear friend and collaborator, Samuel Sarpiyra, is an award winning Nigerian peacemaker, church planter, Kingian community organiser and entrepreneur. Samuel inspires me! Samuel opens up for us Matthew 9:35-38 and we discuss community development in South Africa, church planting in America, and his work confronting and transforming police violence. For more, visit his website: https://nonviolencect.com Support us on our [Patreon Page](http://www.patreon.com/inverse)

New co-host Dr. Drew Hart and Jarrod McKenna open up Matthew 27 with public theologian and advocate Ekemini Uwan. www.sistamatictheology.com Support us on our [Patreon Page](http://www.patreon.com/inverse)

Trey Ferguson is a minister, writer, and speaker, with an MDiv from the Samuel DeWitt Proctor School of Theology at Virginia Union University. He is the author of Theologizin' Bigger: Homilies on Living Freely and Loving Wholly. His thoughts on faith in an evolving world can be found on the Three Black Men: Theology, Culture, and the World around Us and New Living Treyslation podcasts, in The Son Do Move newsletter, and @pastortrey05 on social media. He lives in South Florida with his wife and three children. Learn more at pastortrey05.com

Jarrod kicks off season 3 by introducing his new Inverse co-host, Dr. Drew Hart. Support us on our [Patreon Page](http://www.patreon.com/inverse)

To support us via Patreon: [www.patreon.com/InVerse](https://www.patreon.com/InVerse/overview) Alice Fraser, corporate law drop out, comedian, in fact the smartest in Australia. Makes jokes in bios about being a terrible banjo player. She likes ideas. She's an idea-interested obsessive. She's also a fellow podcaster: [Tea With Alice](https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/tea-with-alice/id789603540?mt=2) [www.alicecomedyfraser.com](http://www.alicecomedyfraser.com)

John Dear is an American Catholic priest, Nobel Peace Prize nominee, Christian pacifist, vegetarianism advocate, author and lecturer, and a former member of the Society of Jesus. He has been arrested over 75 times in acts of nonviolent civil disobedience against war, injustice and nuclear weapons as part of his "consistent ethic of nonviolence".