Imogen Blood Podcast - Change Talk – Details, episodes & analysis

In this episode, we hear from Mark John-Williams who has over 40 years experience in the care and support sector about the Circles of Support model and how it can mobilise family, friends, neighbours and acquaintances to provide support for an individual.

Mark John-Williams: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-john-williams-99519289/

His short video on Circles of Support: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2ybw3DFVEQ

Imogen runs a social research consultancy Imogen Blood & Associates:

https://www.imogenblood.co.uk/

She provides training on positive risk-taking in care and support.

She also provides MSC training:

https://www.seralliance.org/

Discussed in the podcast:

Supported Decision-Making: https://paradigm-uk.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Print-copy-2023-MASTER-Supported-Decisions-Making-booklet-27-September-A5_Wiro_Bound_SEB.pdf.pdf

Judith Snow: https://www.community-circles.co.uk/judith-snow-a-pioneer-woman/

The Harvard Longitudinal Study: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/01/harvard-happiness-study-relationships/672753/

Gather My Crew: https://www.gathermycrew.org.au

Here 2 There/ For Mi: https://www.here2there.me.uk

Hilary Cottam: Radical Help: https://www.hilarycottam.com/radical-help/

Chapters

0:00 - Intro

1:50 - What is a 'circle of support'?

5:05 - Steps involved in setting up a circle

11:05 - What if there's no one to invite?

14:55 - How fits with paid services

19:14 - Importance of relationships

22:44 - Positive risk-taking and safeguarding

33:15 - Relevance to homelessness/ addiction

36:13 - Learning from the pandemic

41:22 - Using apps to facilitate

47:53 - Knowing how to help

50:30 - Spreading the model

1:02:00 - Reducing demand for health & care

Imogen revisits Most Significant Change - this time with Nick Andrews to explore the methodology in depth, discussing story collection, editing, and the transformative power of narrative evaluation in social care and beyond.

Further resources from DEEP on MSC:

A Storytelling Framework for Social Care in Wales: https://insightcollective.socialcare.wales/a-storytelling-framework-for-social-care-in-wales

MSC blog: https://insightcollective.socialcare.wales/whats-on/news-and-blogs/from-metrics-to-meaning-most-significant-change-as-a-learning-focused-approach-to-evaluation-in-wales

MSC film: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey0pk1clewI

Discussed in the podcast:

Rick Davies and Jess Dart: The Most Significant Change Technique - a guide to its use: https://mande.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/MSCGuide.pdf

Neil Mercer on Oracy/ Exploratory Talk: https://oracycambridge.org/talk-rules/

Glen Robert: Experience-based Co-production: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXG0G1LrK3I

Rupert Higham on Dialogue Learning: https://sms.cam.ac.uk/media/2158639/

Anne Edwards on Common Knowledge: https://www.education.ox.ac.uk/person/anne-edwards/

Iain McGilchrist: The Matter with Things, podcast with Rebel Wisdom: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U99dQrZdVTg

ChangeTalk Podcast on Deep Democracy: https://youtu.be/1R_MMiCz6QE?si=pTxOPhqanhVH6o_l

Imogen Blood for Joseph Rowntree Foundation - A Better Life: Valuing our Later Years: https://www.housinglin.org.uk/_assets/Resources/Housing/OtherOrganisation/older-people-support-full.pdf

Imogen runs a social research consultancy Imogen Blood & Associates:

https://www.imogenblood.co.uk/

She also provides MSC training:

https://www.seralliance.org/

Nick Andrews is based at the University of Swansea:

He delivers the DEEP project, funded by Social Care Wales: https://insightcollective.socialcare.wales/developing-evidence-enriched-practice-deep-2

Chapters

0:00 - Introduction

1:22 - What is MSC?

3:18 - How to collect stories

9:04 - Neither life story nor case study

12:35 - What caused the change?

15:46 - Titles, editing, individuals v groups

20:22 - Panels: story selection

26:27 - When and why to use MSC?

38:48 - Limitations/ health warnings

45:45 - How to argue nicely

57:00 - MSC process creates change

01:10:00 - How we met/ Nick's work

Nicholas Pleace joins Imogen to discuss Housing First strategies, the European context, and how this approach is transforming homelessness services across the UK and beyond.

Nicholas and I first worked together on the Housing First Feasibility Study for the Liverpool City Region (Crisis, 2017): full report; summary version.

Housing First Guide Europe (2016), Nicholas Pleace for FEANTSA https://www.feantsa.org/download/hfg_full_digital1907983494259831639.pdf

Discussed in the podcast:

US sociologist, Teresa Gowan identified 3 caricatures of homelessness: ‘sin-talk’, ‘sick-talk’ and ‘system-talk’, as described here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/334047769_Street_Talk_Homeless_Discourses_and_the_Politics_of_Service_Provision

Malcolm Gladwell: Million-Dollar Murray: The New Yorker, 02/05/2006: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2006/02/13/million-dollar-murray

Blood, Birchall & Pleace (2021) Reducing, Changing, or Ending Housing First support, Homeless Link: https://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/id/eprint/197890/1/Reducing_changing_or_ending_Housing_First_support_2021_full_report.pdf

Sam Tsemberis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Tsemberis

In ‘A Traumatised System’ for Riverside, Nicholas and I describe the commissioning context for UK homelessness services: https://www.riverside.org.uk/care-and-support/homelessness-research-and-reports/a-traumatised-system/

Supporting People programme: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/rp12-40/

Housing First Fidelity Framework: we’ve recently published the framework Nicholas, Anita Birchall and I produced in 2019 here: https://www.imogenblood.co.uk/_files/ugd/775f77_2ccae7cd607e433da5c553c59081cd31.pdf

Imogen runs a social research consultancy Imogen Blood & Associates:

https://www.imogenblood.co.uk/

She also provides MSC training:

https://www.seralliance.org/

Chapters

00:00 - Nicholas’s research background

3:15 - Adapting Housing First into the European context

5:15 - What is Housing First?

9:45 - Why does it work for individuals?

13:15 - Systems change and Housing First

15:52 - Evidence-based intervention in homelessness

19:00 - Housing First’s origins in the US

23:28 - Finland’s Housing First strategy

26:02 - How Housing First developed in the UK

34:00 - Comparison to Housing First in Italy

35:30 - Impact of housing, health and care shortages on Housing First

39:00 - Too thinly spread to have strategic impact

43:50 - Preventing future demand

48:27 - Lack of join up

51:02 - Lack of step-up/ step-down options

56:06 - What is needed?

1:00:35 - The narrative gets in the way

1:06:50 - Housing First as part of mental health pathway?

1:12:50 - Fidelity to the model

1:21:03 - End

Lydia Guthrie shares insights on supporting personal change, attachment theory, and how to help people transform their lives through evidence-based approaches.

More information on Lydia Guthrie can be found on her website 'Change Point':

https://changepointlearning.com/

Imogen runs a social research consultancy Imogen Blood & Associates:

https://www.imogenblood.co.uk/

She also provides MSC training:

https://www.seralliance.org/

Discussed in the podcast:

Motivational Interviewing: https://motivationalinterviewing.org/understanding-motivational-interviewing

Shadd Maruna on Desistance from Crime and Narrative Identity: https://britsoccrim.org/volume2/003.pdf

Our book: Blood, I. & Guthrie, L. (2018) Supporting Older People Using Attachment-Informed and Strengths-Based Approaches, Jessica Kingsley Publishers

Pat Crittenden Dynamic Maturation Model of Attachment and Adaptation: https://www.iasa-dmm.org/images/uploads/Attachment-theory-psychopaathology%20andpsychotherapyThedmm-approach.pdf

Dr Chip Chimera: https://www.psychotherapy.org.uk/therapist/Chip-Chimera-iAic3AAC

Chapters

0:00 - Intro

1:39 - Lydia’s career and background

6:42 - How to help people change

8:49 - Measuring our success

13:48 - Working with denial

23:45 - What is attachment theory?

27:30 - Attachment, parenting and gender

31:10 - Changing our attachment patterns

40:36 - Why systemic (family) therapy?

43:50 - The role of the family therapist

48:06: - Not making things worse

48:38 - Change takes time

53:24 - Implications for service design

Imogen and Mark Robinson explore how storytelling and narrative approaches can transform our understanding of social change, drawing from their extensive experience with Most Significant Change methodology and beyond.

Mark Robinson's consultancy Thinking Practice:

https://www.thinkingpractice.co.uk/

Discussed in the podcast:

Rick Davies & Jess Dart's 2005 book 'The most significant change technique: A guide to its use':

https://www.mande.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2005/MSCGuide.pdf

Case Study on Ark: Stockton Arts Centre:

https://arconline.co.uk/about-us/what-we-do/

MSC training with Future Arts Centres network:

https://futureartscentres.org.uk

Will Storr: 'The Science of Storytelling' :

https://www.thescienceofstorytelling.com

Failspace: How can the cultural sector better recognise and learn from failures?

https://www.culturalvalue.org.uk/our-work/failspace/#intro

Imogen runs a social research consultancy Imogen Blood & Associates:

https://www.imogenblood.co.uk/

She also provides MSC training:

https://www.seralliance.org/

Chapters

0:00 - intro

1:00 - Mark's background and career

7:53 - What is Most Significant Change (MSC)?

10:50 - Applying MSC in the cultural sector

16:15 - Good tool for complex projects

18:25 - MSC gives a structure for thinking about stories

19:50 - Exploring cause and effect through stories

20:06 - 'The science of storytelling' book

22:49 - Particular fit between MSC and the cultural sector?

24:10 - MSC countering evaluation fatigue

28:17 - Limitations or considerations

35:06 - Complementing MSC with 'FailSpace'

38:10 - Deciding what is 'significant'

41:16 - Impact of involving the board in MSC

42:50 - MSC from using MSC

48:45 - Writing MSC stories

55:00 - A title for your story?

Paul Connery joins Imogen to discuss community development approaches, participatory methods, and how grassroots initiatives can create sustainable social change.

Paul Connery: LinkedIn page: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-connery-335708100/

Discussed in the podcast:

Homeless Link: https://homeless.org.uk

Lankelly Chase: 'Hard Edges'

Arnold Mindell: https://www.aamindell.net/worldwork

Greg & Myrna Lewis: https://www.lewisdeepdemocracy.com/?srsltid=AfmBOopEn-d_xqL6WVYFtXe-M03dpR-b7vm6oB9zwH0y9vKy_-be3Lue

Imogen runs a social research consultancy Imogen Blood & Associates:

https://www.imogenblood.co.uk/

She also provides MSC training:

https://www.seralliance.org/

Chapters

0:00 - intro

1:45 - Paul's background

3:05 - Co-production with multiply disadvantaged groups

8:42 - What is Deep Democracy?

12:50 - Building better teams

16:45 - Managers’ roles

20:05 - 5 stages of Deep Democracy

29:50 - As an informal tool

30:10 - Improving decision-making

30:56 - Role of the facilitator

38:52 - Purposeful inclusive meetings

40:52 - Online v face-to-face

43:55 - Change for groups

47:00 - Potential in different settings

48:45 - Personal change

51:00 - The wisdom of the minority

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In this episode, we hear from Penelope Green, who left the civil service (after 18 years, holding senior roles at the Department of Health & Social Care and the Cabinet Office) to work for Look Ahead, a supported housing provider. We talk about the benefits of supported housing for people with mental health conditions and for the NHS, and reflect on opportunities to better integrate housing into Neighbourhood Health initiatives.

Penelope Green: https://www.linkedin.com/in/penelope-green-83a78985/

Imogen runs a social research consultancy Imogen Blood & Associates:

https://www.imogenblood.co.uk/

IBA's report for the Greater London Authority on Mental Health Supported Housing is due to be published in late 2025.

Discussed in the podcast:

Look Ahead: https://www.lookahead.org.uk

Wates Family Enterprise Trust: https://www.wfet.org.uk

Nat Fed #SOSHousing: https://www.housing.org.uk/our-work/supported-housing/save-our-supported-housing/

Penelope's report: The future of supported housing – how can we deliver more, faster: Scaling capital funding https://www.lookahead.org.uk/we-have-the-capital-now-lets-build-the-homes-say-experts/

HACT – Housing and health services: https://hact.org.uk/tools-and-services/housing-services/

Oaklands St Kilda’s Community Rehabilitation Supported Living Service for young people: https://www.lookahead.org.uk/app/uploads/2025/03/Oaklands-brochure.pdf

Sussex MH and housing strategy: https://hact.org.uk/publications/mental-health-and-housing-a-strategic-plan-for-integrating-housing-and-mental-health-across-sussex/

NHS England: Neighbourhood health guidelines 2025/6: https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/neighbourhood-health-guidelines-2025-26/

Chapters

0:00 - Intro

1:23 - Look Ahead's supported housing

3:20 - Role in Neighbourhood Health

6:40 - Securing NHS funding for housing support

14:35 - Scaling up in a complex system?

19:15 - Asks of central government: raising profile

23:26 - Barriers to central government action

32:38 - Asks of central government: Housing Benefit

39:10 - Ideal size of mental health schemes

42:23 - Profile and skills of workforce

50:12 - How to change local systems

55:12 - Integrating Housing in Neighbourhood Health

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In this episode of ChangeTalk, I'm joined by representatives from three different lived experience groups working in different parts of England to improve services for people experiencing homelessness, multiple & compound needs, addiction, and poverty. Monica from LEAF in Oxford, Astrid from Lived Insights in York and Nicky & Cindy from Common Ambition in Brighton & Hove. We reflect on the benefits of lived experience involvement/ co-production, what it takes to do this well, what changes have come about as a result of their work and what needs to happen next. 'It needs to be in the core of how things are done'.

Common Ambition: https://www.bhcommonambition.org

Lived Insights: https://livedinsights.org/

LEAF: https://oxfordgatehouse.org/services-activities/leaf/

Imogen runs a social research consultancy Imogen Blood & Associates (IBA):

https://www.imogenblood.co.uk/

IBA is proud to have worked with each of these three groups:

With LEAF on the Housing-led Feasibility Study for Oxfordshire:

https://www.crisis.org.uk/ending-homelessness/homelessness-knowledge-hub/housing-models-and-access/oxfordshire-feasibility-study/

With Lived Insights on the York Drug & Alcohol Strategy

With Common Ambition on the Evaluation of the Changing Futures Multi-disciplinary Team: https://www.brighton-hove.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2025-04/IBA%20CF%20MDT%20Evaluation%20Final%20Report%2003032025.pdf

and recently in looking at Oasis Project's women-only drug and alcohol support services.

Chapters

1:08 - Introductions

7:07 - Why co-produce?

15:50 - What does good look like?

35:25 - Impact and change

48:45 - What else needs to happen?

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In this episode, I'm speaking to Jane Farrell (former co-founder and CEO of Equality Works/ EW Group) who has spent over 30 years improving diversity and equity in workplaces . We talk about unconscious bias, institutional discrimination, equality monitoring, building a business case, what it means to take a strategic approach to Diversity, Equity Inclusion (and how you can do this on a tight budget).

Jane Farrell Consultancy: https://www.janefarrellconsultancy.com

Imogen runs a social research consultancy Imogen Blood & Associates:

https://www.imogenblood.co.uk/

Imogen specialises in Equality Impact Assessment, and the analysis of equality monitoring data.

Discussed in the podcast:

1999: Report of the Stephen Lawrence inquiry

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-stephen-lawrence-inquiry

On racial inequalities in UK maternity services

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm5803/cmselect/cmwomeq/94/report.html

Evidence for business case for DEI:

McKinsey: Diversity matters even more (2023): https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/diversity-and-inclusion/diversity-matters-even-more-the-case-for-holistic-impact

Deloitte: Missing out: The business case for customer diversity: https://www.deloitte.com/au/en/services/consulting/perspectives/business-case-customer-diversity.html

Chapters

1:09 - Introduction

2:13 - Finding hope in tough times

07:35 - Social class

11:39 - Doing DEI on a shoestring

16:24 - Access, Experience, Outcome

17:55 - Unconscious bias

23:26 - Institutional Discrimination

27:39 - Monitoring data

32:24 - DEI is life or death

35:09 - Strategic approach in a criminal justice setting

42:39 - Workforce and/or service provision

45:44 - Building a business case

50:53 - DEI in the care sector

53:39 - Advice for those working on DEI