Annie Grossman is owner of NYC-based dog training center School For The Dogs and author of How To Train Your Dog With Love & Science, is obsessed with positive reinforcement dog training and thinks you should be, too. Anamarie Johnson, PhD, who consults with shelters and loves to nerd out on dog-related studies. They want dog owners to be more literate in the basics of behavioral science! Tune in to learn how to use science-based methods to train dogs (and people) without pain, force, or coercion.
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Gray Areas: Thoughtful conversations about "balance" at a time when punishment has become a spectacle. Plus: the"mice" of at an R+ Floridian utopia
Season 5 · Episode 225
Wednesday, December 13, 2023 • Duration 30:16
Annie reads a post from Denise Fenzi's page that sparked some interesting comments on labels in the world of dog training. Some dog trainers are considerate about the use of some punishment in training and others work to avoid it at all costs. And then there are trainers who simply don't know what they're doing at all. Like... Dog Daddy. He calls himself "balanced" but no educated pro trainer would give him that label. Maybe the real problem is that to non-professionals, what this Insta-celeb doing is all they know about dog training.
TOPICS DISCUSSED:
- Frustrations with the dog training industry
- Divide between different training methods
- The problem of most people's lack of understanding of dog body language
- The weirdness of a spectacle-like approach to dog training
- Importance of focusing on the dog's well-being
- Potential for more animal training entertainment that actually shows off the magic of positive reinforcements
KEY TAKEAWAYS:
- Dog training should focus on the well-being and training effectiveness
of dogs rather than creating a spectacle.
- Understanding dog body language is crucial for preventing dog bites
and improving communication with dogs.
- The divide between different training methods should be approached
with open dialogue and growth in mind.
- Strength-based training can be effective in both academic and dog training settings.
- The well-being and safety of dogs and the public should be the
priority in dog training.
REFERENCES:
- Denise Fenzi's Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/denise.fenzi
Dealing With A Reactive Dog In Your Home: A Q+A. Plus 3 Special Announcements
Season 4 · Episode 215
Friday, July 22, 2022 • Duration 55:29
Annie was recently browsing her local dog Facebook group, when she came across a post by a woman named Michaelle who was reaching out for training help with her reactive foster dog. Several of the replies recommended a trainer in the area who was not professionally certified, and Michaelle posted that she had decided to work with. When Annie, perhaps a little too aggressively, responded with critical questions about this trainer, Michaelle called her out on it. By way of apology, Annie offered to coach her through some of the issues she was dealing with, gratis.
They discuss her foster dog Baozi's reactivity in the home, including his, growling, barking, sometimes sudden biting and lunging, his many triggers, and health issues that may be affecting his behavior. Rather than focusing on quick fixes for these unwanted behaviors, Annie approaches the issue by suggesting ways to get to the root cause for lasting and mutually beneficial behavior change.
Note: School For The Dogs Podcast is going on hiatus for a few months! But you can join Annie inside the new School For The Dogs Online Campus.
In Defense of Negative Punishment: Teaching dogs patience at mealtime, stopping thumb sucking & more
Season 2 · Episode 125
Friday, March 5, 2021 • Duration 17:50
Is all punishment necessarily bad? Nope! There are two kinds of punishment, and one of them is actually frequently used by so called "positive reinforcement" trainers like Annie: Negative Punishment. Here Annie breaks down what Negative Punishment is, talks about how it interplays with positive reinforcement, and explains its role in the "Elevator Game," which is a great exercise you can to do at mealtimes in order to teach a dog to not bum-rush the food bowl. She also reads from Behavior Principles In Every Day Life by John D. Baldwin and Janice I. Baldwin, which talks about a study in which parents used negative punishment at story time in order to discourage children from sucking their thumbs.
Behavior Principles In Every Day Life by John D. Baldwin and Janice I. Baldwin, https://amzn.to/3qd8TXf
Eileen Anderson on Extinction https://eileenanddogs.com/blog/category/extinction-2/
Episode 47: A busy person's guide to operant conditioning
https://anniegrossman.com/2019/04/training/episode-47-a-busy-persons-guide-to-operant-conditioning/10094/
A conversation with Terra Newell (former groomer, owner of a mini Aussie) about killing her stepfather... and dogs
Season 2 · Episode 123
Monday, March 1, 2021 • Duration 49:33
We're posting this as a bonus episode because it isn't really about dog training... but it's something we think you will want to listen to if you love dogs and empathize with people who love them. If you've heard the podcast Dirty John, or seen the dramatization on TV, also called Dirty John, you'll know that it's a story that is... complicated. The hero of the real-life true-crime story is Terra Newell, a soft-spoken dog groomer who was attacked by her sociopath stepfather one night when she and her dog were coming home from a day working at a shelter. Annie and Terra talk about her life with pets, the traumatic experience she and her dog experienced, how her dog impacted her recovery, and more.
So I’m posting this as a bonus episode because it’s not really about dog training, but it is about a pretty incredible and traumatic experience that a woman who is a huge dog lover had with her dog. And I explain it in this conversation, which I recorded live on Instagram, why I wanted to talk to Terra Newell, who I first learned about from the podcast Dirty John. She is also portrayed in the dramatization of the story Dirty John, in the TV show called Dirty John.
I think I say this in the conversation, but there’s so many things to talk about and think about that are brought up in Dirty John. But of course, with my dog training point of view, all I could think was this woman should become a dog trainer! [laughs] Anyway, I don’t think that is part of Terra Newell’s life plan, but I was happy that she agreed to talk to me.
SFTD Off-Leash Manager Adam Davis on training as a teenager & developing a career specializing in helping dogs socialize
Season 2 · Episode 122
Friday, February 26, 2021 • Duration 01:01:52
When Adam Davis came to work at School For The Dogs in late 2019, he was only in his mid-twenties but already had a decade of working with dogs professionally under his belt. In particular, his background involved a lot of hours spent helping city dogs learn to co-exist, and play, off leash. Today, he runs School For The Dogs' unique School Yard program-- a by-appointment, trainer-supervised members-only dog run -- and also oversees puppy playtimes, in addition to working private with clients. He and Annie discuss his early introduction to the world of science-based training, his interest in police dogs, his rescue dog Sonic, and more.
So I am here with Adam Davis. Adam, why don’t you introduce yourself with your official School for the Dogs title.
Adam:
Hi, Annie, thank you for having me on. Yeah, my name is Adam Davis and I am the off-leash manager at the School for the Dogs.
Annie:
And what does that mean?
Adam:
So pretty much, we have these really cool services, it’s called our Off Leash services, right? Pretty much it sounds exactly how it sounds you get to come into the school and allow your dog to be off-leash in a highly controlled and constructive kind of way. Our services are great for —
Annie:
And to be clear that the owners are there.
A group discussion about The New Yorker article, "Bad Dog," with its author Anna Heyward
Season 2 · Episode 121
Thursday, February 25, 2021 • Duration 01:03:05
Anna Heyward is a writer and a School For The Dogs apprentice who has been featured on this podcast. She joined Annie and others to discuss her heartbreaking new article in The New Yorker, "Bad Dog," on Clubhouse. Their discussion touched on the complicated world of behavioral euthanasia, the cultural fog about dog training and the rampant misinformation about it, and more. Former School For The Dogs trainer Anamarie Johnson, also previously interviewed on this podcast, was among those who joined the conversation.
Find Annie on Clubhouse at @anniegrossman. Looking for a Clubhouse invite? Text 917-414-2625
News flash: Positive reinforcement isn't about being kind!
Season 2 · Episode 120
Friday, February 19, 2021 • Duration 21:37
After attending two webinars where people extolled the virtues of positive reinforcement, Annie was left wondering why the term seems to be so misunderstood-- or maybe she is the one misunderstanding it? While she tries to train using positive reinforcement and she believes the world would be a nicer place if people were able to identify positive reinforcement and use it more effectively, she doesn't see it as some kind of sugar-coated panacea. Positive reinforcement can be very mundane! It is why you look at your phone. It's why you put one foot in front of the other when you walk, and why you push the gas pedal to make your car move forward. If a behavior has been encouraged, it has been reinforced. If it has been encouraged because of the addition of something, rather than the subtraction of something, it has been positively reinforced. So why has the term "positive reinforcement" gotten so mixed up with the idea of kindness? Yelling "No!" can positively reinforce a dog for jumping, and hugging a person might do the opposite of positively reinforcing a given behavior.
Annie recorded this episode on Clubhouse and was joined by podcast listener Leeyah (@leeyahiredale) and Dallas-based trainer Beth (@rehabyourrescue).
If you're on Clubhouse, join Annie on Thursday February 25 at 3PM ET for a discussion with SFTD apprentice Anna Heyward about her article, "Bad Dog," published in this week's New Yorker.
If you need an invite to join Clubhouse (currently available on iOS devices only), text 917-414-2625
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Partial Transcript:
Annie:
I was an attendee in two different webinars earlier this month. One was hosted by the BF Skinner foundation, and the other one was also by a dog training group. But they were both CEU earning webinars, pretty legit. Both were hosted by PhDs.
SFTD Trainer Maddie Messina on studying animal cognition, dealing with allergies, and more
Season 2 · Episode 119
Friday, February 12, 2021 • Duration 44:31
Our trainer Maddie Messina, who started out with us as a walker two years ago, is getting a master's at Hunter's Animal Behavior and Conservation, where she is studying canine cognition. She and Annie discuss her early interest in veterinary medicine, the opportunity she had to work with primates as an undergraduate at Bucknell University, her current focus on working with puppies, and doing it all... while being severely allergic to dogs.
Follow Maddie at Instagram at @onlyfurendswithdogs
Join our new community app, accessible in the iTunes App store, the Play store, or in any web browser at http://schoolforthedogs.com/community. Use hashtag #podcastlistener and we'll grant you a moth of Premium app access.
Find Annie on Clubhouse @anniegrossman. Want a Clubhouse invite? Text a request to 917-414-2625
So thanks for being here, everybody. I am here with Maddie Messina who's been at School for the Dogs, working with us in various capacities for, gosh, could it be two years now? Is that right?
Maddie:
It's definitely coming up on that, for sure.
Annie:
So why don't you talk a little bit about what you're doing right now with us, and then we can talk about what else you've done and what you're doing when you're not wearing your training pouch.
Body Language Basics: https://storeforthedogs.com/collections/online-courses/products/750634
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Partial Transcript:
[Intro and music]
Annie:
So a few years ago near where I live in Manhattan, I saw a woman walking a dog with a shock collar, like a really big shock collar, bright, I think it was like bright yellow. And she had the remote very conspicuously in her hand. And maybe I shouldn’t have done this, but I posted a photo of it, I think an Instagram stories of her with her dog and a shock collar. Like from the back, you couldn’t really tell who she was or who the dog was.
Again, maybe I shouldn’t have done this, but turns out she was a client of another dog trainer that has a studio, not that far from a school for the dogs in Manhattan. And I ended up taking the photo down but not before there was some back and forth in comments if I remember correctly on this photo. Maybe it wasn’t in stories, maybe it was in the feed.
Anyway, there were comments, kind of along the lines of how we as quote unquote positive reinforcement trainers don’t understand the importance of using all four quadrants of operant conditioning, and that — although I think this trainer referred to them as corners — that we, we really can’t be good dog trainers unless we understand and use all four corners, AKA quadrants.
So operant conditioning, is the process of learning by consequence. If you do something, there is a consequence and the consequence can either be punishing or reinforcing. The consequence can be involving adding something or subtracting something. And if you’re adding something, we call it positive.
Hi. This is a bonus Q and A episode. I try and go live every Thursday afternoon on the School for the Dog's Instagram account, which is simply @SchoolfortheDogs. If you would like to ask a question in advance or be notified when I am going to go live, you can go to SchoolfortheDogs.com/qanda. I also periodically answer questions on Clubhouse. You can find me there @AnnieGrossman.
GussietheHussie says: how do you get the trainers you hire? What sort of continued education do they get?
Very good questions. So, a few years ago, we started our professional program training people up to become professional dog trainers. And I think that's Sophie. Hey, Sophie. And part of the reason we did that was because we had trouble finding trainers that we felt like we wanted to work with. It's really hard to find good dog trainers out there. And I'm happy to share some tips on how to find some good dog trainers.
But before I do, I should plug that we are putting our professional program largely online. And what's extra exciting about that is a lot of the content is actually totally free because we want there to be more educated good dog trainers out there. We wanted to take away as many of the barriers as possible. So we are just on the brink of launching the full suite of courses, but the first two first two are up and you can get them schoolforthedogs.com/courses.
The completely free open-source one which contains most of our professional course online content written content is called Born to Behave. You can find it there, you can sign up there. And there's like a tier one professional course which is the same content as Born to Behave. But you do get a certificate at the end, if you do all the parts and do the quizzes.
You can find Terra on Instagram @terranewell. I also just wanted to mention that my recording settings were a little off for the first minute of this conversation, but then they were fixed. So you will hear a transition about a minute in.
Terra:
I had to put you on mute on my computer.
Annie:
Yeah, I’m putting you on mute here too so I only have to record in one in one place, but I am psyched to get to talk to you, and what a beautiful dog. So is he a mini Aussie?
Terra:
Yeah, he’s a mini Aussie. He’s technically known for the AKC as a North American shepherd now, because the mini Aussies are considered their own breed because they had to use a Chihuahua or like the smallest of the smallest Aussie to kind of try to breed that breed.
Annie:
What made you decide to get that, or to get him?
Terra:
So I was at a pet store, working there, and I was with this guy, in a relationship, and he was obsessed with Aussies. And I was just like, okay, I kind of want a papillon because they have the butterfly ears, and I really liked that, and then I was like, well, they’re kind of cool.
Yeah. Owners are there, you’re there with your dog. You’re talking to other parents, you’re talking to the trainer, that’s there. Yeah, we definitely want people to be involved with their dog, especially when it’s in an off-leash kind of setting
Annie:
And we have two different kinds off leash services, which are?
Adam:
Yes we do. Yeah. We have the puppy ones, which, you come in it’s puppy play time. You get to learn a little bit about how dogs communicate to one another, when to give breaks. Really, really valuable. I would suggest this to anyone that has a puppy. It’s so valuable to have our puppy socialized in a highly controlled manner. So that’s the puppy side. That’s the cool, that’s the baby side. Right.
And then we have school yard, which is a little bit of a step up. It’s for dogs that are 20 weeks and older. Very much a similar kind of structure, but a little bit more laid back, I would say. So school yard is really great for dogs that want to be social, that can communicate well. That can take communication well. And it’s a great space for them to be able to come and socialize in a highly controlled manner. This is for adult dogs. Well, not really adult, but non puppies.
Annie:
Some of, some of them are adults. We have some. Well, I think the part of the reason it’s maybe like less controlled as you say is because it’s… I mean, puppy playtime often, it’s, someone’s first time there with their dog. Whereas school yard, we have people who come almost every day of the week for years, so they don’t need as much as much instruction.
So why don’t you talk about the process of getting into school yard. Puppy play time of course is open to puppies who’ve had at least their first round of shots.
This is a bonus episode that was recorded on Clubhouse. Clubhouse is an app for iOS devices that is currently open by invitation only. If you would like an invitation text me at (917) 414-2625. And if I have an invite available, I will share it with you. You can find me there @AnnieGrossman.
So thanks for being here, everybody I’ve asked Yolanta who is a virtual assistant specializing in dog businesses to be here to help me moderate this room. Cause I’ve never moderated a room before and I didn’t want to get it wrong. And Anna Heyward is here. Anna wrote the wonderful, very moving poignant article, Bad Dog, which appeared in the New Yorker last week. Anna Heyward is a School for the Dogs apprentice and started out with us as a client.
I actually interviewed Anna for the podcast a few months ago and then wanted to have another conversation with her for the podcast about her article, but thought it would be fun and interesting to open it up to others who read the article. So Anna, thank you for being here. And if anybody would like to ask Anna a question or discuss the article, just go ahead and use that like hand raising button on the bottom of the screen and Yolanta or I will ping you to to the stage to speak.
One was not specifically about dog training. It was about I think the title was something like “how kindness helped me navigate the world of applied behavior analysis.” There was something about kindness. And the other one was about race and dog training.
So I am a dog trainer and a big behavior nerd and very interested in kind of different takes on behavior, sort of tangential to dog training. So was interested in both of these presentations. But I ended up walking away -- well, they were right after the other, one was one day, one was the next day.
And I ended up feeling kind of frustrated with both of them and tried to try to chat to the moderators while it was happening. But there were a lot of people in the room, and I couldn't seem to ask a question or say something in a way that made sense. But the takeaway from both of them was sort of like rah, rah, rah, isn't positive reinforcement a wonderful thing?
And in the one about race, it was interesting. It was this black dog trainer who I think is, I think she's a psychologist and she was interviewing kids in, I guess she lives in like Ohio, Midwest in a very white area. And she was basically interviewing children about about her, and like working with her, and what it means to work with someone who is black, or person of color was the term that was used.
Okay. Absolutely. So I started at School for the Dogs as a walker, and I came from a training background. So that was my step into the School for the Dogs world. And since then, I've transitioned to working at Day School, which is our adult basic manners drop-off program. And I also mainly focus now on puppy training.
I do a lot of first sessions. So people who come to the school, they see me for the first time as their trainer. And then from there, we kind of build out a program for them or lead them into our group classes, which I just started teaching as well. So last week was my first week of teaching puppy kindergarten.
Annie:
Oh yeah, congratulations. How did it go? I think I was, I was there right when you were starting to set up, I think.
Maddie:
Yeah, it was definitely a big change because I’m used to kind of handling one-on-one clients. But the one thing I will say is that I also think that I’m skilled in handling chaos. That was definitely just kind of practice in handling more chaos, but it went really well. I think the nice thing about our puppy kindergarten setup is that all the puppies who come, by the time they’re here for their first week, they’ve already kind of met with a private trainer and they know the gist, so I think it’s a little bit less chaotic than it would be if you had a group of puppies and parents who were stepping into the training world for the very first time
