Haystacks & Hell – Details, episodes & analysis

Support the Show • Part 2 of Santiago's interview with Dee. We discussed his questioning of Adventism and Christianity in general, Satanic Panic, his evolving perspectives on religion, and having empathy for believers. We also talked about Dee's move to Sweden, his childhood connection to Dr. Ben Carson, and how the Ben Carson on TV is not the same man Dee once knew.

Resources / Topics Mentioned: 
Song - I'm Afraid I'll Go to Heaven by Moon Walker 
Book - Inside Rock Music (SDA anti-rock propaganda) 
Artist - Erykah Badu 
Video - Erykah Badu NPR Tiny Desk Concert 
Article - Dr. Ben Carson 
Video - Carson 1997 National Prayer Breakfast Speech @ 34:53 
Video - Carson 2013 National Prayer Breakfast Speech @ 34:10

00:00 Intro 
01:05 Part 2 of Dee's Story 
02:34 The Historical Jesus 
04:42 Personal Tragedy and Realizations 
07:34 Why Do People Leave? 
13:47 Empathy for Believers 
21:41 Segregated Conferences 
26:17 Sweden, Racism, and CRT 
32:58 Music and Satanic Panic 
44:00 Dr. Ben Carson 
49:39 Moving to Sweden 
54:02 Ethics and Adventism 
1:05:37 Closing Thoughts
 

Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes 
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Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Part 1 of Santiago's interview with Dee, a fourth-generation Seventh-day Adventist, about his SDA background, early baptism, education, and what led him out of the church. In our wide-ranging conversation, we discussed racial issues in Adventist schools, the Civil Rights Movement, and more.

Resources / Topics Mentioned: 

Video - We Are the World 
Topic - Public Enemy 
Film - Malcolm X (1992) 
Topic - Assassination of MLK Jr. 
Topic - Poor People's Campaign 
Topic - The 15 Year Battle for MLK Jr Day 
Video - MLK: "A riot is the language of the unheard" 
Topic - White Americans Celebrated MLK's Death 
Topic - Ronald Reagan's wartime lies
 

00:00 Intro
00:17 Meet Dee: 4th Gen Adventist
02:49 Early Memories & Fearing Ellen White
04:01 Questioning Church Teachings
09:02 A Life-Changing Tragedy
11:04 Living with Fear & Moving to Huntsville
19:01 Baptism and Religious Pressure
22:26 Purity Culture & Mixed Messages
28:51 Weird "Health Message" Fads
31:29 Racial Issues in Adventist Schools
38:11 Civil Rights, Division, MLK
43:30 Deconstructing Beliefs
47:02 How Othering Manipulates Us
53:07 The New Generation
55:29 Trickle Down Greedonomics
1:00:42 Dee's Adventist Education
1:07:16 Goodbye Oakwood, Hello Adulthood
1:11:26 Outro

Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes 
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Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Dunk Family • Support the Show 
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Santiago and Saoirse discuss their very different childhood experiences with Halloween and read some stories from the ex-Adventist subreddit. Abby, Ami, and friends talk around a bonfire (bone fire?) about their experiences with Halloween. That last part of the episode is a little loud, but there's some fun stuff if you're patient.

Topics Mentioned: 
Scared Straight | Hell House - How Gay Thou Art Podcast 
The Addams Family - Wikipedia 
Wednesday (Netflix Show) 
The Addams Family (1991 Film) 
Addams Family Values (1993 Film) 
Beetlejuice (1988 Film) 
Killer Klowns From Outer Space (1988 Film)

Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes 
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Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy 
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Credits: Abby and Ami, creators of the Seventh-day Atheist Podcast • Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Dunk Family • Support the Show 
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Part 2 of 2: Santiago interviews Will James, an ex-Adventist husband, dad, lawyer, and TikToker based in the U.S. state of Oklahoma. We discuss writing wills for SDA church members, Will's deconstruction from Adventism, telling his parents, and navigating his own parental responsibilities after deconstructing at just the right moment.

Topics Mentioned: 
Will's Law Practice Website 
Will's TikTok (@will.i.jam) 
Ada Lois Sipuel Fisher 
Iyanla Vanzant "The past is present" 
Rachel Held Evans (Author) 
Peter Ennes (Author) 
Non-binary Gender 
Singular They 
Left-handedness

Other Episodes Mentioned: 
Melissa Duge Spiers Interview (S1E10 - Part 1) 
Melissa Duge Spiers Interview (S1E11 - Part 2) 

Matthew Vollmer Interview (S1E16 - Part 1) 
Matthew Vollmer Interview (S1E17 - Part 2) 

Race, Slavery, and Racism in Christianity and Adventism (S1E19) 
The Amalgamation of Man and Beast!? (S1E20)

Adventist Estate Stories: 
Bahamian Family Alleges $30 Million Fraud Involving 3ABN 
SDA Church Stealing Estates 
Grandma’s money went to 3ABN

Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes 
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Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy 
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Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Dunk Family • Support the Show 
— 
Part 1 of 2: Santiago interviews Will James, an ex-Adventist husband, dad, lawyer, and TikToker based in the U.S. state of Oklahoma. We discuss his parents' conversion to Adventism (along with 30 of their friends?!) when he was two years old. Will grew up with a very literal interpretation of the Bible and Ellen White's writings, and eventually deconstructed everything. 
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Topics Mentioned: 
Will's TikTok (@will.i.jam)
Oh No, Ross and Carrie - Amazing Facts Series 
David Steward Amazing Facts Profile 
Will's Blog - Broken Plates and Baptisms 
Inception (Movie)

Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes 
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Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy 
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Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook 
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Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Support on Patreon 
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Santiago interviews Morgan Clae, an ex-Adventist director, producer, and singer-songwriter based in Los Angeles. We discuss purity culture, her time at Walla Walla University, being a student missionary, deconstruction, and becoming agnostic. We also explore the meaning behind the lyrics of Wilder Things, Morgan's song on deconstruction and coming out.

Morgan's Links: 
Morgan Clae Linktree 
YouTube 
Spotify 
TikTok

Morgan's Music Mentioned: 
Stay (Music Video) 
Wilder Things 
26

Resources & Topics Mentioned: 
Born Again Again Podcast 
exAdventist Subreddit 
The Greatest Showman 
Jesus and John Wayne 
Conservatives are upset their kids don’t want to spend Christmas with them

Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes

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Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy 
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Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Support on Patreon 
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Santiago interviews Erika Miller, an ex-SDA teacher, mom, and survivor of abuse. As a young child, Erika was abused by a deacon's son at her home church. She shares her amazing story of resilience, attending Newbold College in the UK, and eventually leaving the Adventist church.

Resources Mentioned: 
Erika's email: swimlass [at] gmail.com 
Therapists and Mental Health Resources 
Unbelievable - Netflix Show 

The Netflix show linked above is not about Erika's story, but it's linked here as we briefly discussed Erika’s desire to go into law (timecode 44:32). She was discouraged by her parents, who said the legal profession isn't suitable for a Christian woman. I mentioned the show because it’s based on a true story of a serial r*pist who got away with his crimes in part by committing them in different cities or counties, and the police departments didn’t share any information with each other.

The show centers on a woman who was the most recent victim and spoke to the police, but the two male detectives who questioned her didn’t believe her and ultimately gaslit her into recanting her testimony. It wasn’t until a female detective began noticing a pattern and believed the victim that they finally were able to put the pieces together and catch the r*pist.

The show is relevant because it illustrates how discouraging women from entering certain professions has put us at a disadvantage, and why listening to victims is incredibly important.

Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/S2E1

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Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy 
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Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Support on Patreon 
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For the final episode of Season 1,  Santiago does a deep dive on the "amalgamation" quotes. Abby and Ami talk about bigotry in the Seventh-Day Adventist church and particularly in the southern United States culture of the church. The conversation covers racism, homophobia, dating, trans issues, segregated conferences, and "the amalgamation of man and beast."

Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes

Sources Mentioned:

2021 Poll: 94% of Americans Approve of Interracial Marriage

"Base Crime" Definition from 1858 Dictionary

Racist book from 1867: The Negro, what is his ethnological status?

Uriah Smith's Defense of Ellen White's Amalgamation Quotes

James White promoting Uriah Smith's Book

Adventist Responses:

Adventist Today - Was Ellen White an Infallible Theologian?

Dr. Benjamin Baker - Ellen White on Amalgamation

Terrie Aamodt (59:00), Benjamin Baker (1:32:30) on Amalgamation

Ellen White Estate - Amalgamation by Francis D. Nichol

Tunkhannock SDA Church on Amalgamation 
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Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy 
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Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook 
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Credits: Abby and Ami, creators of the Seventh-day Atheist Podcast • Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Support on Patreon 
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Santiago covers a brief history of race, slavery, and racism in the context of Christianity and Adventism. We look at the Bible, Ellen White's writings, and the history of how the Adventist church created a segregated conference system in the United States. Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes

Race, Pseudoscience, and Science

Adam Hochman - Is ‘race’ modern?

Gregory Slack - The Medieval Origins of 'Race'

Historical origins of racial classification

Limpieza de sangre

Scientific Racism

National Academies - Stop using race

Did Evolutionary Theory Cause Genocide?

Charles Darwin on Racism, Slavery, and Eugenics

Racism within Christianity and Adventism

Christian views on slavery

Christian abolitionism

'The Curse of Ham': Slavery and the Old Testament

German and Austrian churches apologize for Holocaust actions

Adventism’s White Supremacy

Why are there Regional Conferences?

Protest & Progress Speech - Dr. Calvin B. Rock

A House on Fire Panel Discussion

​James Kemuel Humphrey

Byard, Lucille (1877–1943)

Reparations

Reparations for slavery in the United States

The Truth Behind ’40 Acres and a Mule’

Forty acres and a mule

Ellen White on Reparations

Recommended Reading

A House on Fire

Protest & Progress

Seventh-day Adventists and the Civil Rights Movement

How to Be an Antiracist

How to Raise an Antiracist

How to Be a (Young) Antiracist

Antiracist Baby

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Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy 
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Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Support the Show • Support on Patreon 
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Santiago interviews Cherie Marie, a body image coach, BodyBarre instructor, and former 4th generation Adventist who grew up in California, Ohio, and Berrien Springs, Michigan. We discuss food, purity culture, and much more including overcoming challenges with food and body image. Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes
 

Cherie's Info:

To claim a 90-minute session with Cherie, send her a Direct Message on Instagram and mention the promo code "Hell"

Instagram - alchemy1.0

TikTok - cheriemaried

Other topics mentioned:

Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking

Eve Was Framed - Instagram

Gabor Maté - Wikipedia 

Sex and Sensibility
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Have a story to share? Write to us, send a DM or voice message on Instagram, or leave a voicemail at (301) 750-8648‬. We take your privacy seriously: Privacy Policy 
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Twitter • TikTok • Instagram • YouTube • Facebook 
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Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License