On Hard to Market, we discuss the challenges marketing nuanced products and services in the B2B space. Guests include marketing leaders in diverse industries that have products or services that are tricky to sell. Expect to hear success and horror stories from the marketing front-lines on the very next episode of Hard to Market.
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Mastering Networking: No Anxiety, Just Connections!
Episode 202
Wednesday, March 4, 2026 • Duration 26:40
Dive into the networking know-how with Dalene Allen, your 'Connection Concierge,' as she unveils the secrets to building warm, genuine relationships that blossom into business opportunities. Bid farewell to awkward handshakes and monotonous elevator pitches as Dalene redefines networking with a touch of humanity.
Here are a few topics we’ll discuss on this episode of Hard to Market Podcast.
03:06 - First of all, I believe looking to make a connection with another human being is if you like each other and trust each other. Business can happen organically. So if we take it from a different point of view, let me learn as much as I can about you, and how could I help you? It's a law of reciprocity. If I can help you, that's where the trust starts. And by looking at a relationship as opposed to transactional, you're gonna love your life a whole lot more. And I truly believe business will grow. You know, what you send out until the lives of others can come back tenfold.
11:42 - If you're a person that needs to network, but the very thought of it creates anxiety, get the focus off you and pretend every person in that room's got a sign around their neck that says, make me feel important. So here, here's a couple of tips. Get to the networking early, get to know the organizers. Guess what the organizer's trying to do? They're trying to introduce you to people. Then that's where I would go in, and I would say, help. I can help you set up, I can help do anything, but I'm paranoid about networking. Could you help me meet some people? And if they're the organizers and they don't do that, well, you're never going back to that networking event again, are you?
01:23 - If we look at it from curiosity point of view, that person in front of you learn as much as you can about them as a human being. Because if we've ever had to deal with a crappy client, if you got to know them as a human being first, we could likely save ourselves a lot of heartache or headache. And so I had a real fear when I started my first business of even handing out a business card. So I did everything wrong. And what I realized was I was willing because my goals and dreams were big enough to find a way that worked for me. Most people that fear never goes away.
08:25 - I was the worst networker in the whole wide world. I would be like a car dealer in Las Vegas and just throw cards at people. I'd collect them, and then I'd get home and say, why did I do that? To gain a little bit more of a strategic plan. But here's the other part, even reaching out on a social media platform that can be intimidating. But if we look at it from the other point, you know, in another way, they wouldn't have the website if they didn't wanna do business.
19:10 - Listening like a sponge, not a brick. Most people will ask a question, listen until they can get their word in. That's not what it's all about. And so one of the sweetest things you can say is if somebody starts talking, you say it now that was interesting. Tell me more. And that person suddenly it's like doors open, shoulders go down. Because if you're really sincere, just that little thing they've opened up, not a lot, but it's like the segue into
Dive into the challenges of marketing with Loralyn Mears from STEERus! Uncover the art of balance as we explore her journey from burnout to brilliance, helping businesses shine online, snag grants, and gear up mid-level managers for the top. Tune in for her transformative tales and practical advice that could steer your business to success!
Here are a few topics we’ll discuss on this episode of Hard to Market Podcast.
03:50 - Brian: That's normally the way it works. Right? It's never a direct line to success. It's always much more of a search algorithm, a much more of a spiral pattern.
Loralyn: Yes. Downward spiral being a lot of it, but yes. And then now I'm spiraling up. I've got it. 'cause it's really the messaging is now really more clear. It's helping people get seen and get paid. And what does that mean? Well, if you're a mid-level manager that everybody's overlooking or you're not getting along with your staff, well, you need to get seen, right? And do all of these things differently so that you get promoted or keep your job.
Business Growth & Social Strategy: A Chat with CEO Beth Trejo
Episode 192
Wednesday, April 17, 2024 • Duration 22:14
Dive into a dynamic chat with Beth Trejo, CEO of Chatterkick, as she unveils the transformative journey from boardrooms to the digital world. Discover marketing insights, evolving business strategies, and the social spark igniting company growth.
Here are a few topics we’ll discuss on this episode of Hard to Market Podcast.
Beth unveils Chatterkick's origin story.
Powerful SEO tips hidden in plain sight.
Social media's role in business hiring.
Venturing from local to national circuits
Strategy shift: from high-volume to consultative sales.
19:16 - Number one is be curious. Always like want to learn more. I think that's really important. Another is to be kind. You never know what someone's going through on the other end of that conversation, whether it's a real conversation or it's a social media conversation. And I think the third is to make sure that you respond, call them back. When they call you, call them back, whatever that looks like. I think too many businesses just ignore their digital phones and they're real people on the other end of this. And I think if you really wanna make business work on social media, you have to form those real human connections.
The Importance of Onboarding: Creating Content that People Can Understand
Episode 102
Friday, September 8, 2023 • Duration 04:16
In this episode, we explore the importance of making your podcast accessible and creating content that people can understand. By using language and approaches that are inclusive, you can bring your listeners along for the ride and ensure that they can fully enjoy and engage with your conversations. While it may be challenging to simplify complex topics, taking the time to create on-ramps and provide explanations will make your content more effective and enjoyable for a wider audience.
Key Points • Making your language and approach accessible is essential in podcasting and conversations. • Providing clues and tools helps listeners pick up on the direction of the conversation. • Onboarding your audience by using less jargon and explaining unfamiliar terms improves accessibility. • Balancing the need for speed with making content consumable for a broader audience is a challenge. • News outlets often use explanations to ensure understanding of unfamiliar words or concepts. • Creating on-ramps for listeners to join the conversation enhances their enjoyment and engagement. • Speaking in a simple and understandable manner requires effort but is worthwhile.
Best Quotes 00:33 - 00:36 • "You want to bring everyone in the conversation along for the ride."
02:31 - 02:35 • "You won't regret it. Nobody's gonna think you're pandering or talking down."
02:36 - 02:44 • "It's much harder actually to speak in a simple way so that everyone can understand than it is to use all of those tools and jargon."
The Power of Podcasting: Unlocking Business Intelligence in the Digital Age
Episode 101
Thursday, September 7, 2023 • Duration 04:24
In the digital age, podcasting has replaced water cooler conversations as a valuable tool for collecting business intelligence. By hosting a podcast, you can connect with industry peers, gain inside information, and build a strategic network. In this episode, discover the steps to get started and understand how podcasting can give you a competitive edge in the marketplace.
Key Points • Podcasting is a powerful way to collect business intelligence in an open and accessible manner. • Hosting a podcast allows you to connect with potential clients, expand your network, and gain valuable insights. • Start by having conversations and recording them using platforms like Google Meet or Zoom. • Utilize AI-based tools like Otter or Krisp to transcribe and record important information from your meetings. • You don't need fancy intros or music for your podcast – focus on fostering meaningful discussions. • Podcasting gives you a competitive advantage by providing an opportunity to learn 10 times more than non-podcasting peers. • Embrace podcasting as a growth process to become an authority in your industry and gain a broader perspective.
Best Quotes
01:00 - 01:08 • "After you get the hang of it, it is such a valuable and useful tool on so many fronts for your business."
01:38 - 01:41 • "Start having conversations and don't be afraid to push the record button."
02:13 - N/A • "Make sure you get an audio recording from those [conversations]. You can start the process of creating a podcast."
02:24 - 02:34 • "What you really do need is a commitment to continue to have those conversations and to do so in a way that encourages folks to participate."
From Solo Shows to Radio Dramas Uncovering Unique Podcast Formats
Episode 100
Wednesday, September 6, 2023 • Duration 08:11
Discover the various podcast formats and their pros and cons in this episode. Learn about the popularity of interview style podcasts, the challenges of panel style shows, the benefits of solo podcasts, and even the world of radio dramas and live reporting. Whether you're a beginner or a seasoned podcaster, there's a format for everyone.
Key Points • Interview style podcasts allow for access to guest networks and are easy to conduct. • Panel style shows require more coordination and effort but offer the benefit of multiple networks. • Solo podcasts are great for exploring and discovering your own content and knowledge. • Radio dramas require scriptwriting, talent, and production elements. • Live reporting podcasts offer a gritty, authentic feel but require time and preparation. • Each podcast format serves different purposes and targets various audiences. • Don't be afraid to start your podcast and evolve as you go along.
Best Quotes "An interview podcast is an awesome way to expand your network and share content with others."
"Solo podcasts are a great way to discover your own content and knowledge in new ways."
"Radio dramas are often used for employee training or to create a compelling company culture."
"Live reporting podcasts offer unique experiences and are expected to have challenging production quality."
"Field reporting podcasts require a lot of time and preparation but can result in engaging content."
"Just get started with your podcast and you'll figure out the best format along the way."
"Your podcast will evolve and transform over time, so don't be afraid to experiment."
Creating Rich and Valuable Content: The Role of Guest Comfort
Episode 99
Wednesday, September 6, 2023 • Duration 04:57
As a podcast host, it's crucial to set expectations and make guests feel comfortable to create a great show. Warmup meetings prior to recording help alleviate fears, discuss topics, and establish ground rules. Putting guests at ease enhances their willingness to share valuable and emotionally connected information, resulting in richer content and challenging conversations.
Key Points • Warmup meetings help set expectations and alleviate guest anxiety • Sharing that the recording can be edited puts guests more at ease • Comfortable guests are more likely to share difficult or emotionally connected information • Challenging guests can lead to richer and better show content • Valuable shows go beyond surface-level topics, providing unique and nuanced information • Ground rules set in advance help create a comfortable environment for guests • Guest comfort enhances the overall quality of podcast episodes
Best Quotes "Your mission is to start a conversation about setting expectations and alleviating guest fears." "A guest that's at ease is more likely to share difficult or emotionally connected information." "The shows that are the best quality are the ones that provide new and novel information." "Having comfortable guests allows for challenging conversations and better content." "Creating a great podcast involves making guests feel comfortable to share deeper content." "Ground rules in a meeting prior to recording are crucial for a successful podcast episode." "Ensuring guest comfort plays a significant role in the overall quality of the show."
Empathy in Content Creation: Building Resonance through SEO, Email Marketing, and Social Media
Episode 98
Tuesday, September 5, 2023 • Duration 34:46
In this episode, Edmund Zaloga from Responsify discusses their content creation and marketing journey. Responsify helps businesses bridge the gap between customer pains and solutions through engaging and informative content. The interview explores the importance of setting expectations and maintaining relationships with clients, different types of clients, and how their agency and software provide value and gamify the marketing and sales process. Listeners also learn about empathizing with the audience, creating resonating content, and the role of AI in generating impactful titles.
Introducing Edmund Zaloga, the Founder and CEO of Responsify, a trailblazing growth content marketing strategy and production service based in Brooklyn, New York. With over a decade of expertise, Edmund specializes in crafting organic content that attracts, converts, and closes new customers. He's also contributed his creative wisdom as a Part-Time Professor at Pratt Institute and lent his strategic prowess to global brands like HubSpot and BBMG. Here are a few of the topics we’ll discuss on this episode of Hard to Market:
Content plays a crucial role in connecting businesses with their target audience.
Setting clear expectations and being honest with clients helps maintain healthy and productive relationships.
Clients who see the agency as a partner are easier and more enjoyable to work with.
The agency is exploring options to expand their services, potentially targeting startups who need assistance with content creation.
Understand your audience's pain points and use SEO to find relevant keywords.
Leverage social media, particularly LinkedIn, to strengthen connections and interactions.
Seek support from a marketing partner who can help relieve the burden and provide expertise.
Demystifying The Magic: Your Easy Guide to Starting A Podcast
Episode 97
Thursday, August 31, 2023 • Duration 05:19
Summary Dive into the world of podcasting as the seasoned experts at Podcast Chef distill the complex art down to its essentials. This episode strips away the intimidation factor tied to starting a podcast, focusing on getting started rather than expensive equipment setups, and expressing why persistence trumps perfection.
Key Points • The essentials to start podcasting are straightforward. • Technology and equipment should not get in the way of starting a podcast. • Consistency and evolution are key to a successful podcast. • AI Tools and emerging technologies can resolve numerous equipment issues. • A podcast can be an effective tool to impact your business positively.
Best Quotes 00:05 - 00:30 • "And to be honest with you, it's not that hard. At least in the beginning. The things that you need to get started podcasting are pretty straightforward. You can usually do it with a laptop computer or you can do it with a phone. The other things that you might get into maybe a little bit later on are things like microphones, cameras, green screens, whatever."
00:38 - 00:57 • "The important part of the podcasting process is to, a, get started, and b, keep going. The rest of the stuff, how you sound, how you look, all of the other things will improve over time, so you don't need to try out of the gate."
01:48 - 02:01 • "The podcast you end up with, and the podcast you start with are two very different things. And the podcast that you have now, and the podcast you'll have a year from now and two years from now and on and on are all gonna be very different."
02:05 - 02:23 • "Don't let the equipment, don't let the tech stack get in the way. Don't worry about those kind of things because they're all gonna be evolving. There's AI tools right now that will help do noise canceling, noise reduction that will make up for a ton of equipment issues."
02:23 - 02:38 • "There are other solutions for video background editing, making you look better, all that kind of stuff that are all kind of regularly emergent with new solutions. And if you wait for the ideal answer, you won't get started."
Balancing New Client Attraction and Catering to Strong Buying Intent
Episode 96
Tuesday, August 29, 2023 • Duration 19:54
In this episode, Sean Boyce, the Founder of Podcast Chef, shares his experience and strategies for marketing businesses with nuanced offerings. He emphasizes the importance of catering to the audience's level of understanding and discusses the balance between attracting new clients and catering to those with strong buying intent. He emphasizes the importance of finding your value proposition, gaining social proof, and getting customer feedback. They also discuss the power of podcasting and leveraging various channels to attract customers.
Sean Boyce has run his consultancy firm NxtStep Consulting for over 10 years but found he wasn’t able to grow his network effectively and efficiently through in-person marketing or lead generation services.
To solve this, Sean founded Podcast Chef, a full-service podcast management platform that helped him grow his network while making awesome content at the same time.
Seeing the effectiveness of podcasting at reaching new people, Sean opened it up to others, helping people to start a podcast and delegating the management from post-production to booking guests. Here are a few of the topics we’ll discuss on this episode of Hard to Market:
Nuanced businesses can be harder to market due to their complexity and lack of familiarity.
Starting with a more specific and opinionated approach can help potential customers understand the value of the offering.
Understanding the audience's level of knowledge and adapting the messaging accordingly is crucial in successful marketing.
Experimentation and trial and error are key to finding the right marketing approach for complex businesses.
Build confidence by recognizing your past successes and identifying the problems you can solve for others.
Determine your value proposition and gather social proof, case studies, and demonstrations to support it.
Use multiple channels, with podcasting as a cornerstone, to grow your brand and attract your target audience.
Resources:
17:14 - It's so much easier to fix other people's problems rather than your own always plus, right? The cobbler's children has no shoes, right? Because we're always fixing everybody else's thing. So like, my website sucks, but everybody else's that I do looks really good. And that's a whole other thing.
15:11 - The cost of change is often not measured in dollars. It's often measured in organizational fatigue. It's measured in all sorts of the emotional cognitive expense work that isn't easy. It's the same as going to the gym in a lot of these kind of environments where it's like you have to do the, you know, you have to lift the weights, nobody can do it for you. And so you have folks that come in in the small business space, and very often they wanna buy their way out of a problem. And it's like, no, you exercised your way into this problem, you're gonna need to exercise your way out of it. And that creates a very, very difficult dynamic.
17:29 - I think it's the state of overwhelm. I think you talked about change, that there is a cost. Mentally, people aren't ready. They know that they need to make change, but it's too much because they've got to change everything on every axis. Right? It's like that movie, first it was only a little bit, and then everything all at once. And it really does become overwhelming, and it's all-consuming, and people just don't have, not even the, the financial capital, which of course is a constraint. You look at the number of small business loans, and two-thirds of small businesses are subsisting on loans. But you look at just the mental energy, it's too much.
23:29 - The third thing I would say on go to market is don't get so hung up on the perfection. It's gotta be 99.99% perfect. I really like this. No, I like this image a little better. Let's craft this. Hmm, that post isn't quite right. Just do it. I really believe Wayne Gretzky greatest hockey player of all time, although Alex mentioned, is like taken over. But that's another story, and good for Ovechkin, but Wayne Gretzky said famously, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. And so that's what I say, don't wait till you're 99.99, 80% is good enough. Get it going. See if it works, test it, try it, refine it.
11:27 - I think right now just our field in marketing as a whole is shifting. And I think it will continue. It has, it's always evolved and we're still gonna need people to help tell businesses stories. Like, I don't think that there's going to be a fall or demise of marketing, but I think the way that we're doing it on behalf of businesses is changing at a very, very fast pace. And social media is still a big category of how individuals, especially individuals under the age of 40, want to interact with brands, but businesses are not embracing it at the pace that they really, that their customers want.
15:08 - There is all of this other stuff that comes up. And if you don't create that presence for your business, someone else will. Your employees will create it on Glassdoor, your customers will be posting about you on TikTok, you're gonna get out there. But it's just a matter of like, who do you want to tell that story? And sometimes businesses make the strategic choice not to be in that spot, and that's their call.
15:43 - What drives me crazy is when businesses are using preconceived notions or assumptions about their customers without actually going through that journey themselves. Like, have you tried to apply to your own jobs? Have you tried to go through your website and be a customer? Can you find your phone number? and it's those type of things that I think are the big biggest misses that a lot of businesses are just blindsided with.
09:51 - You need to make sure you know how to hire the right type of salesperson. In the beginning, we hired high-volume salespeople. And I always call, that's like the hunting dog mindset, right? Just like, go get 'em, go get 'em, go get 'em. And those individuals were great, but because they like need that constant drip of dopamine from a sale, they would sell things that sometimes we didn't even offer, or they would sell things incorrectly because they just wanted the sale. And so we kind of got into a spot where we had to say, hold up. We need someone who can really consul, consultative sell this service. We need them to really understand enough about digital marketing and the tools that we're using. And really they need to want the sale not just for the money, but because they know it's going to be a long-term partnership.
02:22 - “You know, ultimately we're human beings. We like people and companies have websites. They're all, we all have something to give to the world. The websites are, you know, is meant to represent that and to ultimately, you know, help connect people. And what I found was after interviewing a lot of great CEOs that I had just hounded and, and tried to really get a hold of, they just, they sort of told me the same thing, which is like, Hey, we have a website, you know, we've got this really innovative product or service, you know, we're having a hard time getting people to even find us.”
18:22 - “How do we work with somebody who's going to help us make it, you know, do this better, faster, and cheaper than we could do on our own? And that's the sort of golden is they say it's a utopia. I say, you know, it's somewhere in between. It might not be, you know, it for every case, you know, people could definitely try to do things cheaper than us, but, you know, there's always that compromise the quality, and then it's going to take longer. You're going to have to deal with the headaches of managing all those freelancers. And so we were just sort of trying to find the sweet spot so that people can, clients can get an amazing value.”
12:01 - “And so for us, it's like, for me, I'd rather be blunt and honest and occasionally lose a client who is over demanding and unrealistic and just, I mean, we lay it all out and block it in white, here's exactly what we're going to do. Here's how much of it we're going to do, here's how much time it's going to take. And so when they're asking for things that are outside of that, I'll oftentimes say, well, let's, let's go back to totally understand and respect what you know, and then let's go back to the agreement. Let's look at what we have. And so that's, that's helpful for the people who are, you know, fair and reasonable.”
08:09 - Brian: “So as an outsource sort of content creation marketing function, one of the things I'm sure you experience all the time is your clients asking for content that may or may not actually move their, you know, business forward. Yeah. It doesn't move the needle. Then what's the point? How do you, how a, how often does that happen and what's the consultative process you go through? And then B, a follow-up question, how do you help them get from, get through that transition?” Edmund: “So I think a lot of that comes down to when you don't, if it, you know, if you, if you don't have a goal, it's difficult to score, right? So the, the way we look at it, or maybe the way that I've forced everybody to, to look at it is, you know, if you don't have a plan, you plan to fail.”
19:35 - Brian: “And as you've kind of embraced the sort of SEO nature and all of the kind of things that come out, I mean, it's quite clear that that's a data-driven sort of activity. How do you balance that creative sort of interest and background that you started with, with today's heavily data-driven approach to solving some of these problems?” Edmund: “So I think the, I think the, the, the way to do that, and I think it's, you know, I think it's a matter of balancing art and science. I think people generally are either really good. You have, you know, they, there's another metaphor. It's like you're, you're head in the clouds or feet on the, on the ground. I think that we try to do both. Like that's the thing is like, we're trying to…” Brian: “Sounds like a long stretch.” Edmund: “I can kind of, you know, I've got some, some cloud cover, but it's, it's that, it's the balance.”
02:40 - 02:54 • "The long and short of it is get started sooner than later, and you'll find that those files, whatever they are, you should be able to get them processed and turned into a reasonable podcast and start publishing."
03:20 - 03:43 • "But if you're looking for some deliberate help where you want perhaps a more faster jumpstart, hit our website, get our ebook. There are great suggestions in there on how you might best leverage the podcast that you're trying to start to build your business or to build your referral network."
07:41 - “Yes, so I'm a data-driven person, engineer at heart, you know, tech geek what, however you want to describe it. So I love the T&E approach, as I often abbreviate it. The trial and error where I may have something I want to do, like let's say I wanna work with Fortune 500 companies as a B two B SaaS consultant. Great, can I come right out of the gate and do that? Maybe, maybe not, right? So I need to figure out a way to systematically get to those folks first and foremost to start having conversations with them to see whether or not there's a need, if they have a problem that I could solve, if they have a problem that I can solve, do they believe that I'm someone that can solve it, right?”
09:12 - “I think there's a lot of content out there that could be misleading in terms of like, you need to come up with all of the details now. And then you, you know, you do that in as just checking a box and then once you've checked that box, then you just sell, sell, sell. And just like everything goes super well, it's not really the case. I think there's a lot more of the like putting the plane together in the air while you're flying it, that anybody who's involved in business will tell you is a core component of the process. So getting comfortable with that, getting comfortable in those uncomfortable scenarios, is really an important piece of it.”
06:58 - “Because there's a certain amount and there's, there's always going to be, particularly in the marketing space, there's a certain amount of grow your own clients. You have to help them along the way through that sales journey. But I think on the other side of it too is the moment you have somebody with a strong buying intent, you now have a different problem, right? You have to be able to speak to that exact buying intent.”
15:28 - “The ability to then leverage the content you already have or the stuff you're creating to then I guess collect field data as well as to what's performing well, so you can understand what messages appealing to your audience. And, and I think in the beginning when you first start out, like your only real litmus test if you're doing it for the first time is you look at your bank account or whatever, and you go, yeah, I didn't get any checks this week. And that's a real problem because it's exactly looking at you're, you're looking at too much of the process. It sounds like the very first decision you made was actually not to be focused on that outcome, but instead focus on am I having good conversations first and then from those good conversations, am I able to turn any of them into a single piece of business? And then can I repeat that over and over again?”
11:04 - Brian: “What, what were your first handles, and what are the ones you're using now?” Sean: “Great question. So I think a lot of people struggle with as it's often referred to as this imposter syndrome and especially when you're starting out and even more so if you're innovating, like when I was starting as a product consultant, I couldn't find a lot of content out there about other people doing something similar. But what gave me the confidence in that was that I knew that I had done this successfully before and I had seen people with the kind of problems that I could help them solve. So that gave me a level of confidence to give it a shot, right? Because a bunch of people told me not to do it. Like a bunch of people are like, I don't even know what that is. I never heard of that. Good luck selling that.”
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