Future Around & Find Out – Details, episodes & analysis

Mario Rodriguez is GitHub's Chief Product Officer. And he believes that Copilot and other AI advances will unleash a wave of creativity and enable a billion people to be software developers.

Mario says the definition of “software developer” will have to change as non-professionals discover that they can make apps, too. And the way they do so will look very different: “It's gonna feel a lot more like how kids play. ​​It's like you create something you play with and you're like, Nope. Then you instruct it again… It’s going to be real time development.”

On this episode of CRAFTED., Mario gets us excited about the future of software development!

Takeaways:

• Mario says we’ve lost some of the creativity of the early days of the web; AI is helping bring it back
• With AI, it’s getting much easier (for non-professional developers) to build “micro experiences” and other ephemeral apps that just serve one purpose. 
• The craft of product management must change with AI, because building with non-deterministic AI is so tricky to get right
• When building with AI, run your scenario multiple times. Test your prompts repeatedly. You will get different responses each time. Are they all helpful to your user? 
• Invest in offline evaluation when building with AI or else you’ll have lots of problems later. 
• Psychology is key. How will users react if AI tells them something subjective? Mario has seen Copilot users get upset, e.g. “Nope, you're completely wrong. I know what I'm doing. You are a machine. I am not gonna ask you to ever review my code.” 
• Don’t optimize for just one metric. Mario says you should have three or so that you evaluate in concert. 
• Product sense matters! 
• Prompt engineering is real. How you can better prompt your Copilot
• Keeping developers in flow is critical. 
• How much time do developers spend on “sense-making” vs. coding? How much time do they spend waiting for reviews? These are some of the questions GitHub asks when evaluating developer productivity. 
• Mario came to the US from Cuba when he was in high school. His father is an electrical engineer and his mother is a teacher. Both influence him greatly.
• Mario founded a charter school in rural North Carolina because “everyone should have access to amazing education.”
• System thinking and evaluating things from first principles are key skills for the future. 

CRAFTED. is brought to you in partnership with Docker, which helps developers build, share, run and verify applications anywhere – without environment confirmation or management. More than 20 million developers worldwide use Docker's suite of development tools, services and automations to accelerate the delivery of secure applications. 

CRAFTED. is produced by Modern Product Minds, where CRAFTED. host Dan Blumberg and team can help you take a new product from zero to one... and beyond. We specialize in early stage product discovery, growth, and experimentation. 

Subscribe to CRAFTED., follow the show, and sign up for the newsletter 👉 crafted.fm

Key Moments 

• (00:00) - Intro
• (02:32) - 1B Developers!
• (05:53) - Ephemeral apps and how they will unleash creativity and learning
• (06:21) - The time Dan programmed his TI-83 calculator to play blackjack
• (07:32) - Why “natural language is going to take center stage” as software development evolves
• (10:30) - Why building with Generative AI is completely different
• (13:50) - Why humans don’t always respond well to suggestions from CoPilot
• (15:36) - Why offline evaluation is so important when building with AI
• (19:14) - Building Copilot: balancing speed with value
• (21:01) - Why “product sense” matter so much
• (21:54) - Tips for prompting CoPilot effectively
• (25:59) - Building Copilot: the early days
• (30:44) - How GitHub measures developer happiness
• (33:20) - Growing up in Cuba and developing a love for teaching (his mom’s profession) and engineering (his dad’s)
• (37:18) - Why Mario founded a school in rural North Carolina
• (39:31) - Systems thinking, and other skills that Mario hopes today’s kids will learn
• (42:16) - Outro

Henrik Werdelin is on an AI-fueled mission to launch thousands of startups a year. 

He is the founder of BARK, which went public, and prehype, a studio that has incubated several unicorns. With Audos, Henrik is building AI agents that can coach founders how he would — if he had infinite time to do so. 

And Audos is not just for the cliche founder looking to launch a unicorn… It’s for entrepreneurs of all stripes. With AI making things easier, Henrik expects to see lots more “DonkeyCorns,” i.e. highly profitable businesses operated by just one or two people. 

“DonkeyCorns party like unicorns, but they grind like mules.”

Check out this episode for lots of practical tips for how you can get more out of AI. Plus, we’ll peer into the weird future we’re building. 

Takeaways from this episode: 

• AI enables new businesses to be created, launched, and tested very quickly. Henrik shares how Audos uses AI to help founders focus on their customers, launch, and get customers
• Henrik talks to his AI agents like they’re people: He gives them names and backstories. By doing so, he finds he has a better partner than a bot or Google search would be. 
• The more creative you are with prompts, the better the AI will be. e.g., Ask for “ten ideas that will definitely get me fired”
• “Customer-founder fit” is the most important ingredient to Henrik 
• Use “signal mining” to prove there is real demand for your product
• “The swipe” proves there is real intent for your product, i.e. get people to pay for it, even if you haven’t built it yet.
• BARK succeeded (it’s gone public) by following its mission (be “Disney for dogs”) not by following its utility (boxes of stuff for pets)
• “Relationship capital” and “humanity” will be more important, as AI continues to excel at technical jobs. 
• Take AI seriously right now. And Henrik says senior leaders need to be using it themselves
• It’s weird out there: We discuss the uncanny valley of talking to AI agents (including those that impersonate your dead spouse) 
• Rock and roll – Henrik tells the story of his career break: As an intern, he pulled an on-air stunt at MTV that he was sure would get him fired, but instead got him a huge promotion.

Henrik is the author of The Acorn Method: How Companies Get Growing Again. And he’s writing a new book, Me, My Customer, and AI. He also co-hosts the podcast Beyond the Prompt, which features the interesting, weird, and uncanny-valley ways people are using AI in their day-to-day lives, as well as practical tips for how you can go beyond “beginner mode” in your own use of AI. 

CRAFTED. is brought to you in partnership with Docker, which helps developers build, share, run and verify applications anywhere – without environment confirmation or management. More than 20 million developers worldwide use Docker's suite of development tools, services and automations to accelerate the delivery of secure applications. 

CRAFTED. is produced by Modern Product Minds, where CRAFTED. host Dan Blumberg and team can help you take a new product from zero to one... and beyond. We specialize in early-stage product discovery, growth, and experimentation. 

Subscribe to CRAFTED., follow the show, and sign up for the newsletter 👉 crafted.fm

Key Moments 

• (00:00) - Intro
• (02:56) - Henrik’s method for launching startups
• (04:08) - Why “customer-founder fit” is the first thing he looks for and how it manifested at BARK
• (06:43) - How to use “signal mining” to prove there is real demand for your product
• (08:42) - Launching BARK Air, “a totally real airline for dogs”
• (12:28) - Launching Audos and using AI to launch thousands of startups a year
• (17:31) - “DonkeyCorns!” Why we will see more highly profitable companies run by just one or two people
• (21:56) - How Henrik uses AI, why he personifies his agents, and the creative prompts he uses
• (28:16) - The stunt that nearly got Henrik fired at MTV, but instead was his career break
• (31:26) - Why big companies need to take AI seriously right now
• (34:53) - How Henrik advises entrepreneurs looking for their next play
• (37:38) - “Pursue interestingness”
• (38:50) - The uncanny valley of AI embodying people
• (40:16) - Outro

Wonder aims to be a “super app for mealtime”, with people turning to it for everything from delivery to groceries to meal kits and more... It’s a very ambitious food-tech startup founded by Marc Lore, the legendary founder who previously built, scaled, and sold Diapers.com and Jet.com (to Amazon and Walmart, respectively). 

Wonder is rapidly opening stores across the East Coast that, as they put it, feature 30 restaurants in one location. The theory is that that one location can be 30x as profitable as a similarly-sized operation. 

Serving and delivering that many types of food, quickly, is an incredible operational challenge. And on this episode of CRAFTED., Wonder VP of Product Rich Przekop shares how his team has built custom software and data products to forecast demand, prevent waste, and make sure the food you want is ready for you. 

Plus, how Wonder is building for today, but also keeping an eye towards tomorrow… The software Rich and team are building may someday be offered externally to power all manner of food/logistics businesses. 

***

Key Moments:

[2:27] The big vision for Wonder: “a super app for mealtime”

[3:28] What it’s like working with legendary founder Marc Lore

[5:08] How Rich got so into data (and how GenAI is now passing Wonder’s SQL test)

[7:32] The ideal customer experience at Wonder

[10:54] Why Wonder had to build custom software

[13:02] How and why Wonder built a simulator to help it forecast demand, reduce food waste and prevent stockouts

[20:04] How Wonder may someday whitelabel its logistics software and sell it to other companies

[23:23] The culture at Wonder and why “Marc is the cheerleader” and Rich plays the role of “Yes, but also…” 

[26:00] The power of clear, measurable goals

***

CRAFTED. is brought to you in partnership with Docker, which helps developers build, share, run and verify applications anywhere – without environment confirmation or management. More than 20 million developers worldwide use Docker's suite of development tools, services and automations to accelerate the delivery of secure applications. 

CRAFTED. is produced by Modern Product Minds, where CRAFTED. host Dan Blumberg and team can help you take a new product from zero to one... and beyond. We specialize in early stage product discovery, growth, and experimentation. Learn more at modernproductminds.com 

Subscribe to CRAFTED., follow the show, and sign up for the newsletter 👉 crafted.fm

When Docker restructured, the company went back to its roots: super-serving developers. CTO Justin Cormack says that’s why the company is developer-obsessed, not customer-obsessed: “We really wanted to focus on the fact that it's the developer who loves Docker. It's the developer who is going to be using Docker every day…” 

Over the past decade, Docker exploded in popularity as companies moved to cloud and adopted software containers as they did... but the company struggled as a business and, five years ago, made massive changes: “When we restructured people were like, `Well, I kind of hope this works, but I doubt it will.`” 

Well, it’s working. Docker is now bigger than ever and growing.

On this episode of CRAFTED... We'll discuss developer productivity, how Docker continues to build new products to improve it, and why so many organizations are in an awkward phase, with too many responsibilities being put onto the developer. 

We’ll also look beyond the container to new vectors of growth, including helping companies put GenAI to production. 

Plus, Justin will share tips for developers on how they can better communicate their needs. And what CFO-types can do in return: “the one thing they can do is actually listen to the developers!”

***

Key Moments:

[3:13] Why Docker needed to restructure and refocus and why the turnaround has been a success

[04:52] Why Docker is “developer-obsessed” not “customer-obsessed” 

[6:13] Docker’s explosive growth in its early years: containers, the cloud and microservices

[08:48] Docker's Successful Restructuring and Product Development

[11:22] “Shift Left” and why this trend of putting more responsibility onto developers earlier and earlier in development is great, but also can put too much pressure on developers, who need to be supported

[13:53] How Justin and team prioritize Docker's roadmap 

[16:48] AI: How Docker is helping its client build RAG and other GenAI apps, and the tricky infrastructure needed to support them

[19:38] Developer productivity and the importance of the inner loop

[27:01] Developers love their laptops! And why Windows machines have become so popular

[30:40] How to talk so your CFO will listen and the rise of business-focused engineers

***

CRAFTED. is brought to you in partnership with Docker, which helps developers build, share, run and verify applications anywhere – without environment confirmation or management. More than 20 million developers worldwide use Docker's suite of development tools, services and automations to accelerate the delivery of secure applications. 

CRAFTED. is produced by Modern Product Minds, where CRAFTED. host Dan Blumberg and team can help you take a new product from zero to one... and beyond. We specialize in early stage product discovery, growth, and experimentation. Learn more at modernproductminds.com 

Subscribe to CRAFTED., follow the show, and sign up for the newsletter 👉 crafted.fm

Software, hardware, and biotechnology are playing an increasingly transformative role in our mental health and wellness. On this episode of CRAFTED., recorded live on the “Next” stage at SXSW, we discuss what investors look for in these new companies and how they separate what’s real — and what’s near-term — from what’s hype. 

On stage with host Dan Blumberg are:

• Amy Kruse, General Partner & Chief Investment Officer at Satori Neuro, and a trained neuroscientist
• Matias Serebrinsky, Co-founder and General Partner at PsyMed Ventures, and the host of Business Trip, which is a great podcast if you want to go even deeper on these topics. Listen at businesstrip.fm 
• Christie Nicholson, Founder of Studio Lumina, and the co-host for this panel

We’ll explore AI-powered tools for mental health, the new area of “enerceuticals” (energy replacing the “pharma”), psychedelics, and why what’s in your gut is so important to your mental state. Hear from investment experts who have a wide view of this growing startup landscape and better understand which new ventures are likely to succeed.

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Key Moments:

[03:18] Recent advances in biotech and why advances in data and AI are helping biology become a more “mature” science

[05:30] Why AI is overhyped, but also where it’s not

[09:07] Why psychedelics are overhyped, but also where they’re not

[11:24] What’s real and amazing: brain-computer interfaces, e.g. humans controlling robotic arms with the minds

[13:55] What’s real and amazing: precision psychiatry and neuroscience

[15:42] The emerging field of “enerceuticals” -- using energy instead of drugs, e.g. low intensity focused ultrasound

[17:47] Neuroplasticity: our brains can change!

[23:01] Mental health, the gut-brain axis, and food as medicine

[34:58] The business models of bio tech startups and how to know when a company is making progress on a years-long effort

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CRAFTED. is brought to you in partnership with Docker, which helps developers build, share, run and verify applications anywhere – without environment confirmation or management. More than 20 million developers worldwide use Docker's suite of development tools, services and automations to accelerate the delivery of secure applications. Learn more at Docker.com

CRAFTED. is produced by Modern Product Minds, where my team and I can help you take a new product from zero to one... and beyond. We specialize in early stage product discovery, growth, and experimentation. Learn more at modernproductminds.com 

Subscribe to CRAFTED., follow the show, and sign up for the newsletter 👉 CRAFTED.fm

Dr. Gabriella Rosen Kellerman is the Chief Product and Innovation Officer at BetterUp, a multi-billion dollar startup that helps people and companies level up. Through a combination of human coaching and AI, BetterUp is able to offer the kind of executive coaching that used to be reserved for... executives. 

 On this episode of CRAFTED. we dig into how BetterUp ships new products, proves they work, and what's next… 

Key Moments:

[2:23 - 7:27] How BetterUp helps companies and employees level up

[7:27 - 11:15] How BetterUp build products — and why they have more than the typical product trio of product/design/engineering

[11:15 - 14:22] Launching the Group Coaching product, testing it, and scaling it (during the pandemic) 

[14:22 - 17:42] “Kids in the candy store” – how BetterUp is building with GenAI after so many years of building with GOFAI (good old fashioned AI)

[17:42 - 20:38] Challenges as BetterUp has scaled up and what’s next for the company

[20:38 - 22:26] The “whitewater world of work” and what makes Gabriella optimistic about the future

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The book: Tomorrowmind 

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CRAFTED. is brought to you in partnership with Docker, which helps developers build, share, run and verify applications anywhere – without environment confirmation or management. More than 20 million developers worldwide use Docker's suite of development tools, services and automations to accelerate the delivery of secure applications. Learn more at Docker.com

CRAFTED. is produced by Modern Product Minds, where my team and I can help you take a new product from zero to one... and beyond. We specialize in early stage product discovery, growth, and experimentation. Learn more at modernproductminds.com 

Subscribe to CRAFTED., follow the show, and sign up for the newsletter 👉 Crafted.fm

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Diaa El All is the founder and CEO of Soundful, which enables anyone to create brand new music in just a few seconds with AI. And on this episode of CRAFTED., we are literally making music.

We’re also talking about the ethics of using AI to make music. Diaa has been very outspoken about what he sees as the misguided practices of other AI+music companies that train their models by just scraping the web. At Soundful, they’ve taken a different approach: they are painstakingly building their own proprietary data by recording musicians playing one note at a time and then layering the notes to create music that sounds better than if you’d just sampled songs. 

“We've done it. There is a way where technological advancement and working with the rights-holders and protecting them can co-exist together.” 

We discuss:

* Why Diaa stands with the music industry against what he sees as other companies' move fast & break things approach to AI 

* Diaa’s background as a classical musician, DJ, ghost producer, and founder

* How Soundful built its data and how it layers sounds together to make music

* Soundful’s origin story and how it emerged from Diaa’s work with AI and marketing automation

* Why humans are so important when making music 

* Why music theory rules are important to follow – except when they’re not!

* What to expect next… and how incredible AI voice cloning has become

***

CRAFTED. is brought to you in partnership with Docker, which helps developers build, share, run and verify applications anywhere – without environment confirmation or management. More than 20 million developers worldwide use Docker's suite of development tools, services and automations to accelerate the delivery of secure applications. 

CRAFTED. is produced by Modern Product Minds, where Dan Blumberg and team advise companies on product, discovery, growth, and experimentation. 

Subscribe to CRAFTED., follow the show, and sign up for the newsletter 👉 Crafted.fm

***

Key Moments:

[02:01] Ethical AI in Music Creation: How Soundful builds its AI ethically, avoiding training on copyrighted materials and using proprietary data.

[05:00] Diaa’s journey from Cairo to the Royal Academy of London, and his various roles in the music industry before founding Soundful

[07:02] Soundful’s origin story

[10:10] Soundful's music creation process, including the use of music theory rules and proprietary data sets to generate tracks

[12:08] How Soundful manages the non-deterministic nature of AI to ensure unique, high-quality music outputs for users.

[14:36] How Soundful levels people up and why he’s so excited to level up that great singer who is not yet a great producer

[17:00] The hardest part of building Soundful - working with the music industry and winning their acceptance

[21:55] Predictions for the future, including advancements in voice cloning and the potential for democratizing creative opportunities.

Paige Costello is the the head of AI and co-head of product at Asana and on this episode of CRAFTED. we're exploring what it means to ship products with AI, how AI will change the way work gets done, and how to organize your teams for success in this brave new world.

We explore:

• How the future of work – and communicating about work – is changing
• Why Asana chose to create an “AI org” instead of a less centralized innovation approach
• How Asana ships — and measures the success of — AI-powered features, e.g. SmartStatus, that aim to take the drudgery out of work
• How product management is changing with the rise of AI
• Why running an A/B test is harder when a non-deterministic (i.e. unpredictable by design) GenAI tool is involved
• Why it’s so important to “get out of the building” and some of Paige’s favorite user research moments from doing so
• The latest with “PaigeBot” and what Paige hopes AI can do for her

***

CRAFTED. is brought to you in partnership with Docker, which helps developers build, share, run and verify applications anywhere – without environment confirmation or management. More than 20 million developers worldwide use Docker's suite of development tools, services and automations to accelerate the delivery of secure applications. 

CRAFTED. is produced by Modern Product Minds, where Dan Blumberg and team advise companies on product, discovery, growth, and experimentation. 

Subscribe to CRAFTED., follow the show, and sign up for the newsletter 👉 Crafted.fm

***

Key Moments:

[02:17] AI-generated status reports: How Asana summarizes a project – or many projects – using AI. And why it needs to do so carefully. 

[05:00] How to organize for innovation: How Asana organizes its teams to integrate AI and the strategies they employ for effective AI implementation.

[09:06] How AI will change the role of product managers and why the stochastic nature of AI will be something we all have to get used to

[14:26] Challenges of prototyping and scaling AI

[16:07] How Asana uses AI internally and how it dogfoods its own products

[18:17] Profound implications of AI + the future of work

[22:20] Will AI really help product managers get out of the building more? Or do we just find new excuses not to? And what Paige finds so powerful about “being in someone’s space”

[25:32] An update on “PaigeBot” and what Paige wishes a bot would do for her

“So if you take any great startup and look backwards, you'll see that 90 percent of their growth came from like 10 percent of the stuff that they tried. So how do you find that 10 percent as quickly as possible?”

Matt Lerner has advised hundreds of startups on how to grow. Now, the CEO of SYSTM has written a book called Growth Levers and How to Find Them where he shares his approach. This episode of CRAFTED. is full of actionable advice on how you can grow your products and companies. Matt will tell us about the mindset shift founders need to make from thinking about their products to thinking about their customers needs. We'll talk about jobs-to-be-done (JTBD) style interviewing and why it's such a powerful approach, but also why at first Matt was put off by some of the overly academic language that often goes with jobs. And we'll talk about how you can get new customers to that aha moment as quickly as possible, so they stick with your product. Plus, lots of real talk about founders and the mistakes they make. 

Welcome to CRAFTED., a show about great products and the people who make them. CRAFTED. brings you stories of founders, makers, and innovators that reveal how they've built game changing products and how you can too.

—

Key Moments:

• [0:00] Intro
• [2:20] 90 percent of growth comes 10 percent of the stuff you try
• [3:53] Over-thinkers, under-thinkers, and delegators: the 3 types of founders and the mistakes they make
• [7:40] Why the pace of learning is so important
• [9:51] Great examples of companies that learn quickly
• [10:52] The “locksmith moment” and why you need to find yours
• [12:45] Jobs-to-be-Done style interviewing and why it’s so effective
• [14:07] How to do a JTBD interview
• [16:05] The mindset shift founders need to make from thinking about their product to thinking about the customers’ needs – and why it’s so hard for them to do so
• [21:24] Growth Sprints and how to set them up for success
• [25:07] Retention and customer activation: still (!) overlooked by most and why it’s so critical
• [29:00] Matt writes a blog post on the spot about how working at an oil refinery taught him about startups
• [31:36] Writing a book is not an agile process! And the fantastic reception for Growth Levers

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More on Matt Lerner:

• His company: SYSTM
• The book: Growth Levers and How to Find Them

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CRAFTED. is produced by Modern Product Minds, where host Dan Blumberg also advises companies on product discovery, growth, and experimentation. Learn more and sign up for the CRAFTED. newsletter at modernproductminds.com 

On April 1st, 2013, ProdPad promised something revolutionary: “We now take your backlog of ideas, and with highly advanced big data crunching algorithm technology, automagically render a complete and accurate product roadmap. [...] The Auto-Roadmap Tool not only builds itself, but also covers for the hardest part of the Product Manager’s job: Getting complete buy-in from your team.”

Amazing! And product managers wrote in with unbridled excitement itching to get their hands on this incredible tool.

Except… this was obviously an April Fool’s joke, right!? 

Well, fast forward to today and it ain’t a joke! ProdPad is building these automagical abilities right now. Thanks to Generative AI, this absurdist joke has become reality (though not yet the part about magically getting buy-in from your fussy stakeholders... that's in the 2.0 version :) 

On this episode of CRAFTED., Janna Bastow, the founder and CEO of ProdPad, founder of Mind The Product, inventor of the now-next-later roadmap, and an April Fool's prankster you need to keep your eye on describes what a great roadmap is, how AI is freeing up product people to do more meaningful work, and what the future of product management will entail (getting out of the building more!). 

Welcome to CRAFTED., a show about great products and the people who make them. 

Sign up for the CRAFTED. newsletter and explore past episodes at modernproductminds.com

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CRAFTED. is sponsored by Artium, a next generation software development consultancy that combines elite human craftsmanship and artificial intelligence. See how Artium can help you build your future at artium.ai.