How do you react when people make mistakes?

Patricia Corsi is the Chief Growth Officer of Kimberly-Clark. Patricia has been named one of the Top 50 Most Influential CMOs of the World by Forbes in 2024 and 2025.

She has very clear beliefs about how to unlock creativity and innovation in her business, and the kind of leadership that requires.

Creativity and innovation are unpredictable. They demand uncertainty and depend on failure. Failure is how we learn and without it, creativity dies.

Modern society isn't good on failure. We look for likes and follows and success, defined across as many metrics as possible. Childhood is a celebration of attendance, not attempt. Break the rules, and punishment ensues. Conform, and be confirmed as a trusted member of society.

The world is unstable. Politics is unpredictable. Technology is rampant. We can no longer believe our own eyes. Or ears.

When we can no longer rely on our senses, those attributes that helped us survive the last 3,000 years, it's not a surprise that avoiding mistakes has become the currency of choice for many businesses. Plan and execute. A sea of grey in a world looking for hope.

Leadership is the single greatest opportunity most of us will have to make a difference. I've said that before. Today, it's truer than ever.

It comes with a responsibility which is to decide what that difference is. If you measure it in titles and awards, I promise you will be soon forgotten. Your name on a plaque at the bottom of a recycling bin or a landfill.

But if you measure the difference you make in terms of how you react when people make mistakes, you will have established the foundations on which their creativity is unlocked.

And that opens the door to ideas that no one has ever thought of before and to businesses that no one has ever seen.

So, how do you react when people make mistakes? And what might you do differently?

Are you creating trust?

David Rolfe is the Head of Production at WPP. When David and I debated last year, whether one person could someday make a Super Bowl ad, it felt like a provocation.

This year, we both agreed it's an inevitability. Which brings with it a bigger question. How will we tell the difference between what's real and what's synthetic? And will it matter?

And that's the moment when trust becomes everything. Trust in the makers, when we can no longer believe our own eyes. Trust in the curators that they'll tell us what we're looking at. And trust that technology can expand what's possible without stripping away the humanity that makes creativity matter.

Trust is the fuel of the human journey, the thing we yearn for as we search for our tribe, for where we belong. And trust is the new currency. As Scott Galloway wrote in a recent newsletter, the Next Big Crisis in Confidence will come from our inability to distinguish human Intent. In a world optimized for optics, trust is the next scarce resource.

And that's why trust is one of the 13 dimensions that we measure with our FORM Creativity Diagnostic. Why it shows up as a cornerstone of so many of the world's most innovative and creative companies.

Because without trust, creativity shuts down. People won't share fragile ideas. They won't take risks, and they won't challenge the status quo. But when trust exists between leaders and teams, between companies and their audiences, then creativity is unleashed. It becomes safer to experiment, easier to collaborate, and becomes possible to build the kind of culture where bold ideas thrive.

David Rolfe has always been one of the most thoughtful voices on production. Trust him when he tells you that we are barely scratching the surface of what is possible. And then make sure that you know whether trust is the currency at the heart of your organization. Or what you need to do to make sure that it is.

Welcome to the first episode of 2025. A year that promises to be unlike any other on so many levels.

This episode is designed as a provocation, an inspiration, and a roadmap for the leaders of businesses, for whom unlocking creative thinking is critical.

Over the last four weeks, I've talked to 12 exceptional leaders from a diverse set of experiences and perspectives. I've asked them how the best leaders will lead in 2025. From those conversations, I've identified the three leadership practices that will be critical to leaders of creative businesses this year.

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

Who is helping you be you?

Liz Taylor is the Global Chief Creative Officer at Ogilvy.

Everyone has a story. Liz's story, as you'll hear, has a traumatic beginning. She grew up with an abusive father in a home in which there was always a loaded gun. The police were called often. She and her mother and brother and sister would sometimes have to leave in the middle of the night.

That kind of start to life leaves a mark.

We are shaped by our past, consciously or unconsciously.

Which means the person we become can be defined by circumstance. Or by choice.

Sometimes these choices are informed by the presence of a powerful partner in our lives. For Liz, that partner, as you'll hear, was her mother.

Today, Liz's ability to so clearly and powerfully declare the kind of environment she is determined to provide as a leader, is influenced by the protection and the support that her mother provided her.

But sometimes, the choice of who we want to be does not come from the example set by someone else.

Sometimes, all we have to work with are circumstances in which we were left alone to figure it out for ourselves. Circumstances in which there was no one we could trust.

That can be a lonely place.

One in which it can be overwhelming to ask ourselves honestly, is this who I really want to be?

But I know this to be true beyond a shadow of a doubt.

There are people around you who care. People who want to support you on your journey. People who will help you find your better angels and hold on to them.

Our past shapes us. But it need not define us.

Only we do that.

We just have to ask for help.

How does your leadership make people feel?

Ajaz Ahmed is the Founder and CEO of AKQA. They describe themselves as an ideas and innovation company. AKQA employs 6,500 people around the world and receives about 80,000 job applications a year.

The most creative and innovative companies in the world thrive when they build environments that their people trust and cultures that absorb new blood of every type, willingly and happily.

Developing a truly diverse talent base has been the focus of a great many failed attempts by a great many companies. This is true even of companies otherwise acclaimed as the best of the best.

For the amount of time, energy and talent devoted to the effort, diversity and inclusion is still too often a well-intentioned initiative rather than a lived reality.

Ajaz's definition is the first time that I've heard a description that made me understand what a truly inclusive company culture would feel like. And I think that matters.

Leadership has always been measured by results - usually, the kind you can see on a spreadsheet.

That will always be the case. Economics matter. And in the short term, you can move the economic needle of your business through sheer force of leadership will.

Which is why we tend to judge our own leadership impact by analyzing what we can get people to do.

But, for any company dependent on creativity and innovation for its success, sustained economic performance is the result of how people feel.

This is a frightening idea to contemplate, I think.

'How do I make you feel?' is perhaps the most vulnerable of human enquiries.

But it's the one that moves the needle, both on your impact as a leader and as a soul on the planet. A win-win.

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

How does your leadership make people feel?

Ajaz Ahmed is the Founder and CEO of AKQA. They describe themselves as an ideas and innovation company. AKQA employs 6,500 people around the world and receives about 80,000 job applications a year.

The most creative and innovative companies in the world thrive when they build environments that their people trust and cultures that absorb new blood of every type, willingly and happily.

Developing a truly diverse talent base has been the focus of a great many failed attempts by a great many companies. This is true even of companies otherwise acclaimed as the best of the best.

For the amount of time, energy and talent devoted to the effort, diversity and inclusion is still too often a well-intentioned initiative rather than a lived reality.

Ajaz's definition is the first time that I've heard a description that made me understand what a truly inclusive company culture would feel like. And I think that matters.

Leadership has always been measured by results - usually, the kind you can see on a spreadsheet.

That will always be the case. Economics matter. And in the short term, you can move the economic needle of your business through sheer force of leadership will.

Which is why we tend to judge our own leadership impact by analyzing what we can get people to do.

But, for any company dependent on creativity and innovation for its success, sustained economic performance is the result of how people feel.

This is a frightening idea to contemplate, I think.

'How do I make you feel?' is perhaps the most vulnerable of human enquiries.

But it's the one that moves the needle, both on your impact as a leader and as a soul on the planet. A win-win.

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

How does your leadership make people feel?

Ajaz Ahmed is the Founder and CEO of AKQA. They describe themselves as an ideas and innovation company. AKQA employs 6,500 people around the world and receives about 80,000 job applications a year.

The most creative and innovative companies in the world thrive when they build environments that their people trust and cultures that absorb new blood of every type, willingly and happily.

Developing a truly diverse talent base has been the focus of a great many failed attempts by a great many companies. This is true even of companies otherwise acclaimed as the best of the best.

For the amount of time, energy and talent devoted to the effort, diversity and inclusion is still too often a well-intentioned initiative rather than a lived reality.

Ajaz's definition is the first time that I've heard a description that made me understand what a truly inclusive company culture would feel like. And I think that matters.

Leadership has always been measured by results - usually, the kind you can see on a spreadsheet.

That will always be the case. Economics matter. And in the short term, you can move the economic needle of your business through sheer force of leadership will.

Which is why we tend to judge our own leadership impact by analyzing what we can get people to do.

But, for any company dependent on creativity and innovation for its success, sustained economic performance is the result of how people feel.

This is a frightening idea to contemplate, I think.

'How do I make you feel?' is perhaps the most vulnerable of human enquiries.

But it's the one that moves the needle, both on your impact as a leader and as a soul on the planet. A win-win.

Do your weaknesses shape you or stop you?

James Townsend is the Global CEO of Stagwell Brand X Performance Network and the Global CEO at Assembly.

We recorded this conversation in the lobby of the Majestic Hotel during the Cannes Lions Festival. In a week known for its energy, James's own energy stands out.

So does his self awareness.

The art of leadership is becoming more nuanced every day. There is no one-size-fits-all approach any more. What is true for one person is anathema to another.

Knowing yourself, your strengths and your weaknesses, has never been more critical to your success and to your happiness.

But it is also the issue that creates the biggest challenge for leaders today.

Some leaders are terrified of their weaknesses and do everything they can to protect themselves from them. They focus on smaller vulnerabilities as a way to convince themselves that they're self aware, while shoving the real issues into the darkest corners.

Others create long lists of perceived weaknesses and much shorter lists of their strengths. Man or woman, they feel like imposters and the lists they create convince them that they are.

It is rare, I find, for someone to have the kind of clarity about themselves that James describes. Most of the time, it takes working with a coach or a confidant for people to see themselves accurately and compassionately. Then they gain access to their full capacity for unleashing the potential of others.

A client with rare talent once said to me, "I'm scared I might be wrong."

"You're going to be wrong," I replied. "But you're going to be wrong much less often than anyone else."

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

Do your weaknesses shape you or stop you?

James Townsend is the Global CEO of Stagwell Brand X Performance Network and the Global CEO at Assembly.

We recorded this conversation in the lobby of the Majestic Hotel during the Cannes Lions Festival. In a week known for its energy, James's own energy stands out.

So does his self awareness.

The art of leadership is becoming more nuanced every day. There is no one-size-fits-all approach any more. What is true for one person is anathema to another.

Knowing yourself, your strengths and your weaknesses, has never been more critical to your success and to your happiness.

But it is also the issue that creates the biggest challenge for leaders today.

Some leaders are terrified of their weaknesses and do everything they can to protect themselves from them. They focus on smaller vulnerabilities as a way to convince themselves that they're self aware, while shoving the real issues into the darkest corners.

Others create long lists of perceived weaknesses and much shorter lists of their strengths. Man or woman, they feel like imposters and the lists they create convince them that they are.

It is rare, I find, for someone to have the kind of clarity about themselves that James describes. Most of the time, it takes working with a coach or a confidant for people to see themselves accurately and compassionately. Then they gain access to their full capacity for unleashing the potential of others.

A client with rare talent once said to me, "I'm scared I might be wrong."

"You're going to be wrong," I replied. "But you're going to be wrong much less often than anyone else."

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

Do your weaknesses shape you or stop you?

James Townsend is the Global CEO of Stagwell Brand X Performance Network and the Global CEO at Assembly.

We recorded this conversation in the lobby of the Majestic Hotel during the Cannes Lions Festival. In a week known for its energy, James's own energy stands out.

So does his self awareness.

The art of leadership is becoming more nuanced every day. There is no one-size-fits-all approach any more. What is true for one person is anathema to another.

Knowing yourself, your strengths and your weaknesses, has never been more critical to your success and to your happiness.

But it is also the issue that creates the biggest challenge for leaders today.

Some leaders are terrified of their weaknesses and do everything they can to protect themselves from them. They focus on smaller vulnerabilities as a way to convince themselves that they're self aware, while shoving the real issues into the darkest corners.

Others create long lists of perceived weaknesses and much shorter lists of their strengths. Man or woman, they feel like imposters and the lists they create convince them that they are.

It is rare, I find, for someone to have the kind of clarity about themselves that James describes. Most of the time, it takes working with a coach or a confidant for people to see themselves accurately and compassionately. Then they gain access to their full capacity for unleashing the potential of others.

A client with rare talent once said to me, "I'm scared I might be wrong."

"You're going to be wrong," I replied. "But you're going to be wrong much less often than anyone else."

What do you need to know and when do you need to know it?

Sir Martin Sorrell first appeared on the show in 2019, and in that conversation, I was struck by his pride in building companies that provide the livelihoods for hundreds of thousands of people.

Sir Martin is a polarizing figure. But he is, of course, much more human than his public persona has shown over the years.

He is, also, I find, increasingly self-reflective.

What do you need to know and when do you need to know it?

Those questions sit at the heart of modern leadership.

Knowledge is indeed power. Demand too much knowledge too soon, and you can restrict the curiosity and the exploration on which creativity and innovation depend.

Ask too few questions and wait too long, and you can expose the business to unsustainable and perhaps even catastrophic risk.

The best leaders, I find, have thought through the questions, 'What do I need to know and when do I need to know it?' and they put in place a clear set of expectations and practices that create clarity and consistency for the people around them.

Sir Martin, famously, held very tight reins on his companies. Tighter than many liked. And perhaps his companies could have achieved even more if he had held those reins a little more loosely. But he has built companies that are undeniably creative and undeniably successful.

Creativity requires room to breathe. But it does not require, nor does it expect, chaos in order to thrive.

It needs simply a consistent set of conditions.

If you are clear and consistent about how you create those conditions, your ability to unlock the potential of others goes up exponentially.

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

What do you need to know and when do you need to know it?

Sir Martin Sorrell first appeared on the show in 2019, and in that conversation, I was struck by his pride in building companies that provide the livelihoods for hundreds of thousands of people.

Sir Martin is a polarizing figure. But he is, of course, much more human than his public persona has shown over the years.

He is, also, I find, increasingly self-reflective.

What do you need to know and when do you need to know it?

Those questions sit at the heart of modern leadership.

Knowledge is indeed power. Demand too much knowledge too soon, and you can restrict the curiosity and the exploration on which creativity and innovation depend.

Ask too few questions and wait too long, and you can expose the business to unsustainable and perhaps even catastrophic risk.

The best leaders, I find, have thought through the questions, 'What do I need to know and when do I need to know it?' and they put in place a clear set of expectations and practices that create clarity and consistency for the people around them.

Sir Martin, famously, held very tight reins on his companies. Tighter than many liked. And perhaps his companies could have achieved even more if he had held those reins a little more loosely. But he has built companies that are undeniably creative and undeniably successful.

Creativity requires room to breathe. But it does not require, nor does it expect, chaos in order to thrive.

It needs simply a consistent set of conditions.

If you are clear and consistent about how you create those conditions, your ability to unlock the potential of others goes up exponentially.

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

What do you need to know and when do you need to know it?

Sir Martin Sorrell first appeared on the show in 2019, and in that conversation, I was struck by his pride in building companies that provide the livelihoods for hundreds of thousands of people.

Sir Martin is a polarizing figure. But he is, of course, much more human than his public persona has shown over the years.

He is, also, I find, increasingly self-reflective.

What do you need to know and when do you need to know it?

Those questions sit at the heart of modern leadership.

Knowledge is indeed power. Demand too much knowledge too soon, and you can restrict the curiosity and the exploration on which creativity and innovation depend.

Ask too few questions and wait too long, and you can expose the business to unsustainable and perhaps even catastrophic risk.

The best leaders, I find, have thought through the questions, 'What do I need to know and when do I need to know it?' and they put in place a clear set of expectations and practices that create clarity and consistency for the people around them.

Sir Martin, famously, held very tight reins on his companies. Tighter than many liked. And perhaps his companies could have achieved even more if he had held those reins a little more loosely. But he has built companies that are undeniably creative and undeniably successful.

Creativity requires room to breathe. But it does not require, nor does it expect, chaos in order to thrive.

It needs simply a consistent set of conditions.

If you are clear and consistent about how you create those conditions, your ability to unlock the potential of others goes up exponentially.

What does your company reject?

Karl Lieberman is the Global Chief Creative Officer of Wieden + Kennedy. Wieden is a reference point among creative companies in many industries. For almost 45 years, they'd been impacting culture and driving business for their clients by unlocking the creativity of their people. .

Creating the kind of environment in which people feel safe to put all their ideas on the table is the easiest thing to aspire to. And the hardest thing to do, in my experience.

It means giving people a voice. It means being open, genuinely open to another way of looking at the world. And to the possibility that being criticized is much more desirable than being ignored.

These criteria are at best challenging for most leaders to accept. Control and predict are much more natural. But predictability and conformity are creative kryptonite.

To unlock creativity and unleash its power to maximum effect, you have to be willing to break the norms, to encourage the irrational and sometimes even the absurd.

You have to reject predictability for possibility.

And when you're yelled at, because no one has ever done it like that before, you have to be willing to shrug.

You'll hear all that and more in my conversation with Karl.

If you died today, what would you regret?

Jon Cook is the Global Chief Executive Officer of VML, the world's largest advertising agency.

Jon died last October. As you'll hear, the fact he is still here to have this conversation required a set of circumstances so improbable that they would have strained the credibility of your favorite episodic drama.

But the fact he is still here, gives him, and those that meet him, a living and breathing teacher of what will really matter to us, when we reach our end.

As we age, our priorities and the emphasis of our life changes. We define success in more personal, more human ways.

And yet, when we become leaders we are judged - and we judge ourselves - against metrics that have limited shelf lives.

That will not change any time soon. If you do not deliver economic performance in a for-profit business, you will not be a leader for long.

But, and this is a big but, ask yourself now, what would you would regret if today was your last day on the planet? And then live a life that makes room for the behaviors that would change that answer.

Life and leadership are about choices. Don't wait until you're dead to make better ones.

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

If you died today, what would you regret?

Jon Cook is the Global Chief Executive Officer of VML, the world's largest advertising agency.

Jon died last October. As you'll hear, the fact he is still here to have this conversation required a set of circumstances so improbable that they would have strained the credibility of your favorite episodic drama.

But the fact he is still here, gives him, and those that meet him, a living and breathing teacher of what will really matter to us, when we reach our end.

As we age, our priorities and the emphasis of our life changes. We define success in more personal, more human ways.

And yet, when we become leaders we are judged - and we judge ourselves - against metrics that have limited shelf lives.

That will not change any time soon. If you do not deliver economic performance in a for-profit business, you will not be a leader for long.

But, and this is a big but, ask yourself now, what would you would regret if today was your last day on the planet? And then live a life that makes room for the behaviors that would change that answer.

Life and leadership are about choices. Don't wait until you're dead to make better ones.

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

If you died today, what would you regret?

Jon Cook is the Global Chief Executive Officer of VML, the world's largest advertising agency.

Jon died last October. As you'll hear, the fact he is still here to have this conversation required a set of circumstances so improbable that they would have strained the credibility of your favorite episodic drama.

But the fact he is still here, gives him, and those that meet him, a living and breathing teacher of what will really matter to us, when we reach our end.

As we age, our priorities and the emphasis of our life changes. We define success in more personal, more human ways.

And yet, when we become leaders we are judged - and we judge ourselves - against metrics that have limited shelf lives.

That will not change any time soon. If you do not deliver economic performance in a for-profit business, you will not be a leader for long.

But, and this is a big but, ask yourself now, what would you would regret if today was your last day on the planet? And then live a life that makes room for the behaviors that would change that answer.

Life and leadership are about choices. Don't wait until you're dead to make better ones.

How fast are you going?

Andréa Mallard is the Chief Marketing & Communications Officer of Pinterest.

I interviewed Andréa at Cannes, in the lobby of the Majestic Hotel. Her energy struck me, the moment she arrived. Her perspectives about her life and her leadership have stayed with me, long after we said goodbye.

Leadership is a forcing function for the forces of physics. Which direction are you going and how fast are you moving are determined entirely by the leader.

Those two factors are affected directly and acutely by the leaders' willingness to challenge the status quo. To take off the handbrake that the unasked question leaves in place.

There are some leaders for whom disruption is the fuel that gets them up in the morning.

But for many, the fear of confrontation provides a natural suppression of the instinct to ask the difficult questions. That fear helps them ignore the rising temperature of the water that they and their company are sitting in.

And when the future suddenly arrives, and stares us in the face, we find that all those unasked questions, all those moments when we avoided the hard conversation, suddenly come with a heavy cost. Or worse.

Leadership asks that we overcome our fears in order to help others with theirs. It asks us to be status quo shakers and rule breakers. It asks us to search for the invisible anchors on our businesses and release them so we can meet the future - on our terms.

I heard - or perhaps dreamt - a quote the other day. In any case, I can't find it on Google so maybe this is an original thought. Either way, it strikes me as true.

You may not be interested in the future. But the future is interested in you.

Ask the questions you didn't ask yesterday. Feel the temperature of the water around you. Meet the future on your terms. As fast as you can.

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

How fast are you going?

Andréa Mallard is the Chief Marketing & Communications Officer of Pinterest.

I interviewed Andréa at Cannes, in the lobby of the Majestic Hotel. Her energy struck me, the moment she arrived. Her perspectives about her life and her leadership have stayed with me, long after we said goodbye.

Leadership is a forcing function for the forces of physics. Which direction are you going and how fast are you moving are determined entirely by the leader.

Those two factors are affected directly and acutely by the leaders' willingness to challenge the status quo. To take off the handbrake that the unasked question leaves in place.

There are some leaders for whom disruption is the fuel that gets them up in the morning.

But for many, the fear of confrontation provides a natural suppression of the instinct to ask the difficult questions. That fear helps them ignore the rising temperature of the water that they and their company are sitting in.

And when the future suddenly arrives, and stares us in the face, we find that all those unasked questions, all those moments when we avoided the hard conversation, suddenly come with a heavy cost. Or worse.

Leadership asks that we overcome our fears in order to help others with theirs. It asks us to be status quo shakers and rule breakers. It asks us to search for the invisible anchors on our businesses and release them so we can meet the future - on our terms.

I heard - or perhaps dreamt - a quote the other day. In any case, I can't find it on Google so maybe this is an original thought. Either way, it strikes me as true.

You may not be interested in the future. But the future is interested in you.

Ask the questions you didn't ask yesterday. Feel the temperature of the water around you. Meet the future on your terms. As fast as you can.

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

How fast are you going?

Andréa Mallard is the Chief Marketing & Communications Officer of Pinterest.

I interviewed Andréa at Cannes, in the lobby of the Majestic Hotel. Her energy struck me, the moment she arrived. Her perspectives about her life and her leadership have stayed with me, long after we said goodbye.

Leadership is a forcing function for the forces of physics. Which direction are you going and how fast are you moving are determined entirely by the leader.

Those two factors are affected directly and acutely by the leaders' willingness to challenge the status quo. To take off the handbrake that the unasked question leaves in place.

There are some leaders for whom disruption is the fuel that gets them up in the morning.

But for many, the fear of confrontation provides a natural suppression of the instinct to ask the difficult questions. That fear helps them ignore the rising temperature of the water that they and their company are sitting in.

And when the future suddenly arrives, and stares us in the face, we find that all those unasked questions, all those moments when we avoided the hard conversation, suddenly come with a heavy cost. Or worse.

Leadership asks that we overcome our fears in order to help others with theirs. It asks us to be status quo shakers and rule breakers. It asks us to search for the invisible anchors on our businesses and release them so we can meet the future - on our terms.

I heard - or perhaps dreamt - a quote the other day. In any case, I can't find it on Google so maybe this is an original thought. Either way, it strikes me as true.

You may not be interested in the future. But the future is interested in you.

Ask the questions you didn't ask yesterday. Feel the temperature of the water around you. Meet the future on your terms. As fast as you can.

How do you feel?

Tim Mapes is the Chief Marketing and Communications Officer for Delta Airlines. 

Delta employs over 90,000 people and puts 4,000 flights into the air every day. As Tim points out, a Delta plane is in the air every second. It is a high-pressure, highly visible job.

Behind that job, is a person. 

Early in our conversation, it became obvious that Tim is very willing to look at himself honestly and at his own behavior with self awareness. 

I asked him where that came from. And he said, simply, counseling.

Invariably, in my experience, it ties back to an experience you had as a child that is being triggered by something in adult life, but it's evocative of a feeling that you either liked or didn't like or were scared of as a child.

Leaders are human too. 

It's easy to forget that simple truth in a world in which leadership itself is too often deified. The more impressive the title, the more we imbue that person with mystical powers of knowledge and wisdom.

Leaders need to earn the respect of the people that choose to work for them. And re-earn it on a regular basis. 

The problem is that over time, successful leaders often tend to create a one way mirror that shows them the world they want to see. And the people that work for those leaders quickly learn that challenging that image is a ticket to nowhere.

The act of building that mirror is usually not one of arrogance or hubris. More often, much more often, it comes from a need to protect ourselves from a feeling that is too difficult to confront.

The willingness to ask ourselves how we really feel, and the courage to explore that question honestly, is the beginning of a journey that replaces the mirror with a window into the lives and feelings of others.

And from that beginning, anything is possible.

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

How do you feel?

Tim Mapes is the Chief Marketing and Communications Officer for Delta Airlines. 

Delta employs over 90,000 people and puts 4,000 flights into the air every day. As Tim points out, a Delta plane is in the air every second. It is a high-pressure, highly visible job.

Behind that job, is a person. 

Early in our conversation, it became obvious that Tim is very willing to look at himself honestly and at his own behavior with self awareness. 

I asked him where that came from. And he said, simply, counseling.

Invariably, in my experience, it ties back to an experience you had as a child that is being triggered by something in adult life, but it's evocative of a feeling that you either liked or didn't like or were scared of as a child.

Leaders are human too. 

It's easy to forget that simple truth in a world in which leadership itself is too often deified. The more impressive the title, the more we imbue that person with mystical powers of knowledge and wisdom.

Leaders need to earn the respect of the people that choose to work for them. And re-earn it on a regular basis. 

The problem is that over time, successful leaders often tend to create a one way mirror that shows them the world they want to see. And the people that work for those leaders quickly learn that challenging that image is a ticket to nowhere.

The act of building that mirror is usually not one of arrogance or hubris. More often, much more often, it comes from a need to protect ourselves from a feeling that is too difficult to confront.

The willingness to ask ourselves how we really feel, and the courage to explore that question honestly, is the beginning of a journey that replaces the mirror with a window into the lives and feelings of others.

And from that beginning, anything is possible.

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

How do you feel?

Tim Mapes is the Chief Marketing and Communications Officer for Delta Airlines. 

Delta employs over 90,000 people and puts 4,000 flights into the air every day. As Tim points out, a Delta plane is in the air every second. It is a high-pressure, highly visible job.

Behind that job, is a person. 

Early in our conversation, it became obvious that Tim is very willing to look at himself honestly and at his own behavior with self awareness. 

I asked him where that came from. And he said, simply, counseling.

Invariably, in my experience, it ties back to an experience you had as a child that is being triggered by something in adult life, but it's evocative of a feeling that you either liked or didn't like or were scared of as a child.

Leaders are human too. 

It's easy to forget that simple truth in a world in which leadership itself is too often deified. The more impressive the title, the more we imbue that person with mystical powers of knowledge and wisdom.

Leaders need to earn the respect of the people that choose to work for them. And re-earn it on a regular basis. 

The problem is that over time, successful leaders often tend to create a one way mirror that shows them the world they want to see. And the people that work for those leaders quickly learn that challenging that image is a ticket to nowhere.

The act of building that mirror is usually not one of arrogance or hubris. More often, much more often, it comes from a need to protect ourselves from a feeling that is too difficult to confront.

The willingness to ask ourselves how we really feel, and the courage to explore that question honestly, is the beginning of a journey that replaces the mirror with a window into the lives and feelings of others.

And from that beginning, anything is possible.

What terrifies you?

This episode marks a couple of important moments. 

It's the first of a series that I recorded last week at the Cannes Lions festival of creativity. 

I have come to learn that Cannes is invaluable on two levels. First, for the people you meet and the relationships you build and develop. Many of the most important and meaningful relationships in my life have been forged and developed over the years at Cannes.

And second, because Cannes, in my experience, is where the future first appears. Not on the main stages, but in the whispy smoke of quiet conversations and afterthoughts that happen away from the spotlight, and that, if you're paying attention, tell you that something is changing.  

In the months leading up to this years festival, in a series of conversations that I had with Simon Cook - the CEO of Cannes - he and I came to learn that there are two things we both want to change. 

We want to change the expectations and structure of modern leadership. 

And we both want to change ourselves.

Simon is rare. A leader in a highly visible position, unafraid to show who he really is.

Together, we agreed that this year, we would share a stage at Cannes to discuss our own, very personal journeys and why we think they are reflective of a still quiet but rapidly emerging new form of leadership. One in which vulnerability is an expectation.

Here's a question. What terrifies you?

Today's episode was recorded last week at Cannes in front of a group of 37 young creatives from 29 countries who had won places to the Roger Hatchuel Student Academy.

It's the most intimate expression that Simon or I have ever shared publicly of who we are.

Our hope is that this helps to catalyze a shift across the creative industries of how leadership is evaluated and what it is fair to expect of each other - and ourselves. 

What are you willing to compromise?

Lina Polimeni is the Chief Corporate Brand Officer at Eli Lilly and Company. This is a business whose work is often the difference between life and death, where they are trying to cure cancer, and where the outcome is very personal.

In the middle of that reality, your own leadership journey is fueled by a lot of food for thought.

No one can lead effectively without compromise. 

But what we choose to compromise has a huge part to play in whether we're successful.

If what we end up sacrificing is a pathway to discovering that we are already enough… If what we end up sacrificing is a road to realizing that the best version of who we are can help others become the best version of themselves…

If that is what we are compromising, then the cost of that will be the realization that we behaved as others wanted us to. And when they are a part of our past, remembered or forgotten, what we will be left with is a journey that is not the one we started out on. A destination that is not where we wanted to go. And a dream that is always around the corner.

We can be what others want, or we can be who we want to be. We always have that choice. 

Are you looking backwards or forwards?

Keith Cartwright is the Founder and CCO of CARTWRIGHT, an agency built on the principle of Creative Audacity. He is also Co-Founder of SATURDAY MORNING, an organization built on using creativity to shift negative perceptions in the African American community. Keith was named one the 50 Top Creatives in the Business by Adweek Magazine, and by Campaign Magazine as Top 10 Most Influential People in Advertising.

The world is complicated. Perhaps more today than ever before. The journey to the future is not clear. What will be true when we get there? When our children get there?

And who will we be when the future arrives?

We are complex beings. Drawn to look forward. Built to dream. But influenced by our past more than we sometimes care to admit. And much more than we know.

Leadership provides the light to the future for all of us. Creativity the fuel. The combination offers limitless potential.

Unlocking that potential, unleashing our full impact during the time we are here, either in this job or in this life, happens when we can bring ourself - our whole self - to every moment.

When we understand the journey and the influences that have brought us to this moment, when we know where we want to go, and we are clear and conscious about the obstacles and limitations and beliefs that we place in our own way, then we become a rare and powerful force.

We become a Whole Leader.

Where are you on that journey?

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

Are you looking backwards or forwards?

Keith Cartwright is the Founder and CCO of CARTWRIGHT, an agency built on the principle of Creative Audacity. He is also Co-Founder of SATURDAY MORNING, an organization built on using creativity to shift negative perceptions in the African American community. Keith was named one the 50 Top Creatives in the Business by Adweek Magazine, and by Campaign Magazine as Top 10 Most Influential People in Advertising.

The world is complicated. Perhaps more today than ever before. The journey to the future is not clear. What will be true when we get there? When our children get there?

And who will we be when the future arrives?

We are complex beings. Drawn to look forward. Built to dream. But influenced by our past more than we sometimes care to admit. And much more than we know.

Leadership provides the light to the future for all of us. Creativity the fuel. The combination offers limitless potential.

Unlocking that potential, unleashing our full impact during the time we are here, either in this job or in this life, happens when we can bring ourself - our whole self - to every moment.

When we understand the journey and the influences that have brought us to this moment, when we know where we want to go, and we are clear and conscious about the obstacles and limitations and beliefs that we place in our own way, then we become a rare and powerful force.

We become a Whole Leader.

Where are you on that journey?

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

Are you looking backwards or forwards?

Keith Cartwright is the Founder and CCO of CARTWRIGHT, an agency built on the principle of Creative Audacity. He is also Co-Founder of SATURDAY MORNING, an organization built on using creativity to shift negative perceptions in the African American community. Keith was named one the 50 Top Creatives in the Business by Adweek Magazine, and by Campaign Magazine as Top 10 Most Influential People in Advertising.

The world is complicated. Perhaps more today than ever before. The journey to the future is not clear. What will be true when we get there? When our children get there?

And who will we be when the future arrives?

We are complex beings. Drawn to look forward. Built to dream. But influenced by our past more than we sometimes care to admit. And much more than we know.

Leadership provides the light to the future for all of us. Creativity the fuel. The combination offers limitless potential.

Unlocking that potential, unleashing our full impact during the time we are here, either in this job or in this life, happens when we can bring ourself - our whole self - to every moment.

When we understand the journey and the influences that have brought us to this moment, when we know where we want to go, and we are clear and conscious about the obstacles and limitations and beliefs that we place in our own way, then we become a rare and powerful force.

We become a Whole Leader.

Where are you on that journey?

How creative are you?

Morgan Flatley is the Global CMO of McDonald's.

McDonald's is one of the most visible, valuable, and influential brands in the world. Since the company's birth, it's been powered by creative thinking and innovation. Today, that's more true than ever.

Leadership is an awesome responsibility. Do it well or do it badly, you will change people's lives, either way.

The creative industries have some exceptional leaders. At their heart lies a passion for creating an environment in which others can unlock their gifts.

A passion, as Morgan describes it, for nurturing creative thinking, for protecting it and giving it a space to grow.

In the middle of all that, it is sometimes easy to overlook everything that you bring to the table. To underestimate your own gifts.

I was fortunate to spend a good part of 2006, 7 and 8 in the company of Sir Ken Robinson. His TED Talk, "Do School Kill Creativity?" has been watched 75 million times. I've included a link in the episode notes.

His basic belief that we are all born creative, resonates so powerfully with people that whenever I was with him, he was stopped over and over again by strangers who told him that he had changed their lives. He died much too young and much too soon.

My definition of creativity comes from him. Original thinking that has value.

In my work, I have learned that most leaders don't fully recognize their own extraordinary abilities. And many of the very best leaders instinctively feel that they are not creative. I have lived that reality myself.

Surrounded by world-class creative ideators and talent, it is easy to believe that we lack their gifts until someone helps us to see ourselves differently.

I was fortunate to have someone do that for me. Today, helping leaders to see all of their strengths is one of the most rewarding parts of what I do.

Creative thinking comes in many forms. And its value is unlocked exponentially when, as leaders, we gain the confidence to see ourselves as we truly are. Powerfully creative in our own right.

This does not make creative leadership a competition. It makes it an equation focused on the people that work for us.

An equation that says recognizing our own talent can make us even better at unlocking theirs.

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

How creative are you?

Morgan Flatley is the Global CMO of McDonald's.

McDonald's is one of the most visible, valuable, and influential brands in the world. Since the company's birth, it's been powered by creative thinking and innovation. Today, that's more true than ever.

Leadership is an awesome responsibility. Do it well or do it badly, you will change people's lives, either way.

The creative industries have some exceptional leaders. At their heart lies a passion for creating an environment in which others can unlock their gifts.

A passion, as Morgan describes it, for nurturing creative thinking, for protecting it and giving it a space to grow.

In the middle of all that, it is sometimes easy to overlook everything that you bring to the table. To underestimate your own gifts.

I was fortunate to spend a good part of 2006, 7 and 8 in the company of Sir Ken Robinson. His TED Talk, "Do School Kill Creativity?" has been watched 75 million times. I've included a link in the episode notes.

His basic belief that we are all born creative, resonates so powerfully with people that whenever I was with him, he was stopped over and over again by strangers who told him that he had changed their lives. He died much too young and much too soon.

My definition of creativity comes from him. Original thinking that has value.

In my work, I have learned that most leaders don't fully recognize their own extraordinary abilities. And many of the very best leaders instinctively feel that they are not creative. I have lived that reality myself.

Surrounded by world-class creative ideators and talent, it is easy to believe that we lack their gifts until someone helps us to see ourselves differently.

I was fortunate to have someone do that for me. Today, helping leaders to see all of their strengths is one of the most rewarding parts of what I do.

Creative thinking comes in many forms. And its value is unlocked exponentially when, as leaders, we gain the confidence to see ourselves as we truly are. Powerfully creative in our own right.

This does not make creative leadership a competition. It makes it an equation focused on the people that work for us.

An equation that says recognizing our own talent can make us even better at unlocking theirs.

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

How creative are you?

Morgan Flatley is the Global CMO of McDonald's.

McDonald's is one of the most visible, valuable, and influential brands in the world. Since the company's birth, it's been powered by creative thinking and innovation. Today, that's more true than ever.

Leadership is an awesome responsibility. Do it well or do it badly, you will change people's lives, either way.

The creative industries have some exceptional leaders. At their heart lies a passion for creating an environment in which others can unlock their gifts.

A passion, as Morgan describes it, for nurturing creative thinking, for protecting it and giving it a space to grow.

In the middle of all that, it is sometimes easy to overlook everything that you bring to the table. To underestimate your own gifts.

I was fortunate to spend a good part of 2006, 7 and 8 in the company of Sir Ken Robinson. His TED Talk, "Do School Kill Creativity?" has been watched 75 million times. I've included a link in the episode notes.

His basic belief that we are all born creative, resonates so powerfully with people that whenever I was with him, he was stopped over and over again by strangers who told him that he had changed their lives. He died much too young and much too soon.

My definition of creativity comes from him. Original thinking that has value.

In my work, I have learned that most leaders don't fully recognize their own extraordinary abilities. And many of the very best leaders instinctively feel that they are not creative. I have lived that reality myself.

Surrounded by world-class creative ideators and talent, it is easy to believe that we lack their gifts until someone helps us to see ourselves differently.

I was fortunate to have someone do that for me. Today, helping leaders to see all of their strengths is one of the most rewarding parts of what I do.

Creative thinking comes in many forms. And its value is unlocked exponentially when, as leaders, we gain the confidence to see ourselves as we truly are. Powerfully creative in our own right.

This does not make creative leadership a competition. It makes it an equation focused on the people that work for us.

An equation that says recognizing our own talent can make us even better at unlocking theirs.

How do you say goodbye?

Brad Simms is the President and CEO of GALE Partners. They describe themselves as strategic storytellers.

GALE was founded in 2014 with seven people in Canada. Today, the agency is 734 people across 11 offices. It was this year named #5 in the Ad Age A List, and as Adweek's Breakthrough Media Agency of the Year.

GALE has above average talent retention rates. But over the course of nine years, something like 1,300 people have spent time at the agency. Put another way, almost 600 people have left the company since it started.

The creative industries are a case study in dynamic organizations. Change is not just inevitable but essential. It is both the fuel and the consequence of creative thinking and innovation.

In that environment, people will come and others will leave. And that is as it should be, both for personal growth and for the growth of the business.

There are two variables in that equation. When they leave, and how.

The question of when is for another day.

The question of how is as important. And often, significantly more so.

For many years, the view was that four or five jobs in a thirty-five year career represented a reasonable timeline. Time to learn, time to influence and to impact. A win-win.

Back then, the idea that you would return to a company that you had worked for before was limited only to those few who realized that leaving had been a mistake, and raced back to the safety of the known. Often within days.

Today, creating the conditions in which employees can boomerang is a practice so common that it has an actual name. And companies with a proven ability to rehire former employees gain distinctive competitive advantages. Institutional knowledge, cultural fit, team casting, and speed of impact being just four.

Today, when someone leaves, the question of whether you, as the leader, are respectful and grateful for the time they spent at your company, will have more impact on whether they want to come back than anything that you do while they are there.

And more to do with who else might want to join you in the first place.

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

How do you say goodbye?

Brad Simms is the President and CEO of GALE Partners. They describe themselves as strategic storytellers.

GALE was founded in 2014 with seven people in Canada. Today, the agency is 734 people across 11 offices. It was this year named #5 in the Ad Age A List, and as Adweek's Breakthrough Media Agency of the Year.

GALE has above average talent retention rates. But over the course of nine years, something like 1,300 people have spent time at the agency. Put another way, almost 600 people have left the company since it started.

The creative industries are a case study in dynamic organizations. Change is not just inevitable but essential. It is both the fuel and the consequence of creative thinking and innovation.

In that environment, people will come and others will leave. And that is as it should be, both for personal growth and for the growth of the business.

There are two variables in that equation. When they leave, and how.

The question of when is for another day.

The question of how is as important. And often, significantly more so.

For many years, the view was that four or five jobs in a thirty-five year career represented a reasonable timeline. Time to learn, time to influence and to impact. A win-win.

Back then, the idea that you would return to a company that you had worked for before was limited only to those few who realized that leaving had been a mistake, and raced back to the safety of the known. Often within days.

Today, creating the conditions in which employees can boomerang is a practice so common that it has an actual name. And companies with a proven ability to rehire former employees gain distinctive competitive advantages. Institutional knowledge, cultural fit, team casting, and speed of impact being just four.

Today, when someone leaves, the question of whether you, as the leader, are respectful and grateful for the time they spent at your company, will have more impact on whether they want to come back than anything that you do while they are there.

And more to do with who else might want to join you in the first place.

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

How do you say goodbye?

Brad Simms is the President and CEO of GALE Partners. They describe themselves as strategic storytellers.

GALE was founded in 2014 with seven people in Canada. Today, the agency is 734 people across 11 offices. It was this year named #5 in the Ad Age A List, and as Adweek's Breakthrough Media Agency of the Year.

GALE has above average talent retention rates. But over the course of nine years, something like 1,300 people have spent time at the agency. Put another way, almost 600 people have left the company since it started.

The creative industries are a case study in dynamic organizations. Change is not just inevitable but essential. It is both the fuel and the consequence of creative thinking and innovation.

In that environment, people will come and others will leave. And that is as it should be, both for personal growth and for the growth of the business.

There are two variables in that equation. When they leave, and how.

The question of when is for another day.

The question of how is as important. And often, significantly more so.

For many years, the view was that four or five jobs in a thirty-five year career represented a reasonable timeline. Time to learn, time to influence and to impact. A win-win.

Back then, the idea that you would return to a company that you had worked for before was limited only to those few who realized that leaving had been a mistake, and raced back to the safety of the known. Often within days.

Today, creating the conditions in which employees can boomerang is a practice so common that it has an actual name. And companies with a proven ability to rehire former employees gain distinctive competitive advantages. Institutional knowledge, cultural fit, team casting, and speed of impact being just four.

Today, when someone leaves, the question of whether you, as the leader, are respectful and grateful for the time they spent at your company, will have more impact on whether they want to come back than anything that you do while they are there.

And more to do with who else might want to join you in the first place.

What are you responsible for?

Emma Armstrong is the CEO of FCB New York. Most recently, the office was named Agency of the Year at the Clio Awards. Both as an office and as a company, the last few years have been stellar by anyone's standards.

There are always many reasons for a company's success, particularly when that success is sustained - the hardest kind to achieve. In my conversation with Emma, she described client relationships in a way that stayed with me long after we had said goodbye.

Unlocking creative thinking and innovation is hard to do when you are in a vendor-supplier relationship. Because, while creativity is the most powerful business problem solver we have, it requires conditions and an environment not always present when one side is telling the other what to do.

Creativity and innovation are fueled by trust. And trust happens when you believe that the person on the other side of the table, or the screen, cares - genuinely cares - about your well-being.

The creative industries have many people who do not engender trust. They demand more for less - more output for less money. More commitment for less respect.

But the true and full power of creativity is unleashed when all parties take seriously the responsibility that each of us has to the person across the table.

Brand, agency, employer, employee. Parent, child, friend. When both of us can put the other person's interests first, well, that's when the world is changed.

Edited highlights of our full length conversation.

What are you willing to compromise?

Lina Polimeni is the Chief Corporate Brand Officer at Eli Lilly and Company. This is a business whose work is often the difference between life and death, where they are trying to cure cancer, and where the outcome is very personal.

In the middle of that reality, your own leadership journey is fueled by a lot of food for thought.

No one can lead effectively without compromise. 

But what we choose to compromise has a huge part to play in whether we're successful.

If what we end up sacrificing is a pathway to discovering that we are already enough… If what we end up sacrificing is a road to realizing that the best version of who we are can help others become the best version of themselves…

If that is what we are compromising, then the cost of that will be the realization that we behaved as others wanted us to. And when they are a part of our past, remembered or forgotten, what we will be left with is a journey that is not the one we started out on. A destination that is not where we wanted to go. And a dream that is always around the corner.

We can be what others want, or we can be who we want to be. We always have that choice. 

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

What are you responsible for?

Emma Armstrong is the CEO of FCB New York. Most recently, the office was named Agency of the Year at the Clio Awards. Both as an office and as a company, the last few years have been stellar by anyone's standards.

There are always many reasons for a company's success, particularly when that success is sustained - the hardest kind to achieve. In my conversation with Emma, she described client relationships in a way that stayed with me long after we had said goodbye.

Unlocking creative thinking and innovation is hard to do when you are in a vendor-supplier relationship. Because, while creativity is the most powerful business problem solver we have, it requires conditions and an environment not always present when one side is telling the other what to do.

Creativity and innovation are fueled by trust. And trust happens when you believe that the person on the other side of the table, or the screen, cares - genuinely cares - about your well-being.

The creative industries have many people who do not engender trust. They demand more for less - more output for less money. More commitment for less respect.

But the true and full power of creativity is unleashed when all parties take seriously the responsibility that each of us has to the person across the table.

Brand, agency, employer, employee. Parent, child, friend. When both of us can put the other person's interests first, well, that's when the world is changed.

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

What are you responsible for?

Emma Armstrong is the CEO of FCB New York. Most recently, the office was named Agency of the Year at the Clio Awards. Both as an office and as a company, the last few years have been stellar by anyone's standards.

There are always many reasons for a company's success, particularly when that success is sustained - the hardest kind to achieve. In my conversation with Emma, she described client relationships in a way that stayed with me long after we had said goodbye.

Unlocking creative thinking and innovation is hard to do when you are in a vendor-supplier relationship. Because, while creativity is the most powerful business problem solver we have, it requires conditions and an environment not always present when one side is telling the other what to do.

Creativity and innovation are fueled by trust. And trust happens when you believe that the person on the other side of the table, or the screen, cares - genuinely cares - about your well-being.

The creative industries have many people who do not engender trust. They demand more for less - more output for less money. More commitment for less respect.

But the true and full power of creativity is unleashed when all parties take seriously the responsibility that each of us has to the person across the table.

Brand, agency, employer, employee. Parent, child, friend. When both of us can put the other person's interests first, well, that's when the world is changed.

This episode is a rebroadcast of a conversation I had in January of 2020 with Marc Pritchard, the CMO of P&G.

In a pre-pandemic world, leaders with jobs as visible and demanding as Marc's were not talking about the importance of being vulnerable very much.

His willingness to do so then stood out.

Based on everything that has happened since then to change our understanding of leadership, Marc's beliefs were unbelievably prescient.

Here is that conversation in full.

Are you willing to be vulnerable?

Marc Pritchard is the CMO of Procter & Gamble -- the largest advertiser in the world. Over 4 billion people buy P&G brands which means the choices the company makes have staggering human, as well as business, implications.

Marc's leadership journey has brought him to a position of enormous influence. As you'll hear, that journey has been marked by his willingness to look at himself honestly. To listen to other people's observations about his leadership, and to consistently raise his own expectations of himself.

This episode is called, "The Vulnerable Leader".

After Marc and I had finished our interview he asked me why I'd started Fearless. My answer surprised him and so I thought I'd share it with you.

I explained that in my work, I've learned that exceptional leaders share three traits. 

They're very clear about the difference they want to make. They recognize and use their strengths - and they're not afraid of their weaknesses.   

Which makes them more focused, more confident and more honest.

But, even the most exceptional leaders take many years to reach this level of self-awareness. 

And, as I explained to Marc, my purpose in my work is to help leaders get there earlier in their careers. So they have more time to maximize their impact. And more time to make a bigger difference. 

This podcast allows me to help listeners understand that fear is part of everyone's leadership journey.  Even the most accomplished and acclaimed.

You might suffer from imposter syndrome or self-doubt. You might have fallen into the habit of focusing on your weaknesses or ignoring your strengths. You might not want to be at the center of attention, and step back at times when you should step forward.

You might, as in Marc's case, have developed a personal narrative that is incomplete.

If you experience any of these, you are not alone. 

What separates the unforgettable leaders from the forgettable ones is their willingness to be open to new possibilities about themselves. And their ability to use those insights to raise their own expectations of what they're capable of.  

Marc's willingness to look at himself honestly is the foundation on which his leadership is built. His vulnerability to admit what he has seen has allowed him to unlock the talents of others. And has helped him raise his own expectations for himself.

This podcast is also raising its own expectations of itself. And over the weeks and months ahead, my hope is that these conversations and the insights they provide will help you realize what you are capable of. And help you become that leader sooner.

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

This episode is a rebroadcast of a conversation I had in January of 2020 with Marc Pritchard, the CMO of P&G.

In a pre-pandemic world, leaders with jobs as visible and demanding as Marc's were not talking about the importance of being vulnerable very much.

His willingness to do so then stood out as so unusual - perhaps even unique.

Based on everything that has happened since then to change our understanding of leadership, Marc's beliefs were unbelievably prescient.

Here is that conversation in full.

Are you willing to be vulnerable?

Marc Pritchard is the CMO of Procter & Gamble -- the largest advertiser in the world. Over 4 billion people buy P&G brands which means the choices the company makes have staggering human, as well as business, implications.

Marc's leadership journey has brought him to a position of enormous influence. As you'll hear, that journey has been marked by his willingness to look at himself honestly. To listen to other people's observations about his leadership, and to consistently raise his own expectations of himself.

This episode is called, "The Vulnerable Leader".

After Marc and I had finished our interview he asked me why I'd started Fearless. My answer surprised him and so I thought I'd share it with you.

I explained that in my work, I've learned that exceptional leaders share three traits. 

They're very clear about the difference they want to make. They recognize and use their strengths - and they're not afraid of their weaknesses.   

Which makes them more focused, more confident and more honest.

But, even the most exceptional leaders take many years to reach this level of self-awareness. 

And, as I explained to Marc, my purpose in my work is to help leaders get there earlier in their careers. So they have more time to maximize their impact. And more time to make a bigger difference. 

This podcast allows me to help listeners understand that fear is part of everyone's leadership journey.  Even the most accomplished and acclaimed.

You might suffer from imposter syndrome or self-doubt. You might have fallen into the habit of focusing on your weaknesses or ignoring your strengths. You might not want to be at the center of attention, and step back at times when you should step forward.

You might, as in Marc's case, have developed a personal narrative that is incomplete.

If you experience any of these, you are not alone. 

What separates the unforgettable leaders from the forgettable ones is their willingness to be open to new possibilities about themselves. And their ability to use those insights to raise their own expectations of what they're capable of.  

Marc's willingness to look at himself honestly is the foundation on which his leadership is built. His vulnerability to admit what he has seen has allowed him to unlock the talents of others. And has helped him raise his own expectations for himself.

This podcast is also raising its own expectations of itself. And over the weeks and months ahead, my hope is that these conversations and the insights they provide will help you realize what you are capable of. And help you become that leader sooner.

What are your priorities?

Suzy Deering was the Global Chief Marketing Officer of Ford. Before that, she was the Global CMO of eBay. She's held senior positions at Verizon and Home Depot. And she's been recognized as one of Business Insider's "Top 50 Most Innovative CMOs."

The demands of those kinds of jobs can make you lose yourself.

Holding on to who you are and being clear about what really matters, does not happen easily - or by accident.

Suzy's priorities are God, family, and work. In that order. She has said so, many times. On at least one occasion, as you'll hear, she was told that her priorities were a problem for some of the people that worked with her.

She is so clear and certain about her priorities that when she joined Ford, she shared them in a document with her team.

Suzy's priorities are not mine. And they may not be yours. But they are hers.

What makes them remarkable, in my experience, are two things. She knows what they are, and she states them publicly.

I believe the very best leaders share a common truth. They say what they mean and they mean what they say. Which builds trust for the people willing to join you on the journey.

Saying what you mean and meaning what you say become very much easier when you know what matters to you.

I'm curious to know if you do?

Send me an email at charles@fearlesscreativeleadership.com if you know your priorities and if you're willing to share them.

And if you're uncomfortable doing so, maybe ask yourself why.

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

What are your priorities?

Suzy Deering was the Global Chief Marketing Officer of Ford. Before that, she was the Global CMO of eBay. She's held senior positions at Verizon and Home Depot. And she's been recognized as one of Business Insider's "Top 50 Most Innovative CMOs."

The demands of those kinds of jobs can make you lose yourself.

Holding on to who you are and being clear about what really matters, does not happen easily - or by accident.

Suzy's priorities are God, family, and work. In that order. She has said so, many times. On at least one occasion, as you'll hear, she was told that her priorities were a problem for some of the people that worked with her.

She is so clear and certain about her priorities that when she joined Ford, she shared them in a document with her team.

Suzy's priorities are not mine. And they may not be yours. But they are hers.

What makes them remarkable, in my experience, are two things. She knows what they are, and she states them publicly.

I believe the very best leaders share a common truth. They say what they mean and they mean what they say. Which builds trust for the people willing to join you on the journey.

Saying what you mean and meaning what you say become very much easier when you know what matters to you.

I'm curious to know if you do?

Send me an email at charles@fearlesscreativeleadership.com if you know your priorities and if you're willing to share them.

And if you're uncomfortable doing so, maybe ask yourself why.

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

What are your priorities?

Suzy Deering was the Global Chief Marketing Officer of Ford. Before that, she was the Global CMO of eBay. She's held senior positions at Verizon and Home Depot. And she's been recognized as one of Business Insider's "Top 50 Most Innovative CMOs."

The demands of those kinds of jobs can make you lose yourself.

Holding on to who you are and being clear about what really matters, does not happen easily - or by accident.

Suzy's priorities are God, family, and work. In that order. She has said so, many times. On at least one occasion, as you'll hear, she was told that her priorities were a problem for some of the people that worked with her.

She is so clear and certain about her priorities that when she joined Ford, she shared them in a document with her team.

Suzy's priorities are not mine. And they may not be yours. But they are hers.

What makes them remarkable, in my experience, are two things. She knows what they are, and she states them publicly.

I believe the very best leaders share a common truth. They say what they mean and they mean what they say. Which builds trust for the people willing to join you on the journey.

Saying what you mean and meaning what you say become very much easier when you know what matters to you.

I'm curious to know if you do?

Send me an email at charles@fearlesscreativeleadership.com if you know your priorities and if you're willing to share them.

And if you're uncomfortable doing so, maybe ask yourself why.

How are you creating your company's culture?

Melissa Waters is the Chief Marketing Officer at Upwork. They describe themselves as the world's work marketplace. 

For any business, if your success depends on unlocking creative thinking and innovation, you have to be competitive in the talent wars. The leadership rules for that used to be simple. Create a compelling culture built around in-person experiences. 

But how do you lead when a company's culture is no longer built around physical space?

Tens of millions, probably billions, of the currency of your choice have been spent by business owners to build offices conducive to collaboration, creativity, and innovation.

I've owned some of those businesses and spent some of that money.

We did it to create a culture. To provide an environment that would help unleash the creativity of the people that worked for us and convert that into economic return.

Physical space wasn't the only element to building a culture. Beliefs and behaviors mattered as well. But all of them were connected by the fact that, day in and day out, human beings came together and shared ideas and experiences, and learned from each other.

But without the physical structure of an office to provide the day-to-day container in which culture incubates, the responsibility to create those connections falls squarely on the leader. 

Who are your people? What do they think, care about, love, loathe? Are they happy or not? Fulfilled or not? Interested, enthused, excited or not?

Do they feel connected to what matters to the company or not?

And if your answer to any of those questions is "I don't know," then it might be time to ask yourself whether your leadership is adapting to the needs of today's talent. Or not.

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

How are you creating your company's culture?

Melissa Waters is the Chief Marketing Officer at Upwork. They describe themselves as the world's work marketplace. 

For any business, if your success depends on unlocking creative thinking and innovation, you have to be competitive in the talent wars. The leadership rules for that used to be simple. Create a compelling culture built around in-person experiences. 

But how do you lead when a company's culture is no longer built around physical space?

Tens of millions, probably billions, of the currency of your choice have been spent by business owners to build offices conducive to collaboration, creativity, and innovation.

I've owned some of those businesses and spent some of that money.

We did it to create a culture. To provide an environment that would help unleash the creativity of the people that worked for us and convert that into economic return.

Physical space wasn't the only element to building a culture. Beliefs and behaviors mattered as well. But all of them were connected by the fact that, day in and day out, human beings came together and shared ideas and experiences, and learned from each other.

But without the physical structure of an office to provide the day-to-day container in which culture incubates, the responsibility to create those connections falls squarely on the leader. 

Who are your people? What do they think, care about, love, loathe? Are they happy or not? Fulfilled or not? Interested, enthused, excited or not?

Do they feel connected to what matters to the company or not?

And if your answer to any of those questions is "I don't know," then it might be time to ask yourself whether your leadership is adapting to the needs of today's talent. Or not.

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

How are you creating your company's culture?

Melissa Waters is the Chief Marketing Officer at Upwork. They describe themselves as the world's work marketplace. 

For any business, if your success depends on unlocking creative thinking and innovation, you have to be competitive in the talent wars. The leadership rules for that used to be simple. Create a compelling culture built around in-person experiences. 

But how do you lead when a company's culture is no longer built around physical space?

Tens of millions, probably billions, of the currency of your choice have been spent by business owners to build offices conducive to collaboration, creativity, and innovation.

I've owned some of those businesses and spent some of that money.

We did it to create a culture. To provide an environment that would help unleash the creativity of the people that worked for us and convert that into economic return.

Physical space wasn't the only element to building a culture. Beliefs and behaviors mattered as well. But all of them were connected by the fact that, day in and day out, human beings came together and shared ideas and experiences, and learned from each other.

But without the physical structure of an office to provide the day-to-day container in which culture incubates, the responsibility to create those connections falls squarely on the leader. 

Who are your people? What do they think, care about, love, loathe? Are they happy or not? Fulfilled or not? Interested, enthused, excited or not?

Do they feel connected to what matters to the company or not?

And if your answer to any of those questions is "I don't know," then it might be time to ask yourself whether your leadership is adapting to the needs of today's talent. Or not.

Are you centered?

Kerry Sulkowicz is the Past-President of the American Psychoanalytic Association, and the Founder and Managing Principal of Boswell Group. They provide leadership advice to boards and CEOs.

Kerry and I have been friends for a long time, and he has taught me much about the psychodynamic aspects of leadership. Whenever we talk, his advice strikes me as clear and straightforward, and always very human.

Being centered doesn't happen through accident, chance, or hope. It happens by intent. 

And that intent is driven by recognizing two obvious truths. 

Leadership is lonely.

And leadership is stressful. Much, much more so than many are willing to admit publicly.

The old-world view is that leadership demands that you project strength, certainty, invincibility. Even in the face of threats that can feel like they are existential - because these days, for many businesses, they might be.

If some days that means you feel like you're a leader in a fight for survival, well, that's not surprising. Because that's exactly how your brain responds to that set of circumstances. 

And under that kind of stress, the part of your brain that's responsible for executive function, for risk assessment, and problem-solving, and for planning, suddenly starts to develop tunnel vision. And at the same time, our amygdala kicks in and suddenly survival gets added to the emotional maelstrom, and then finally comes the impulse to hurry up and do something. Anything. 

Being centered is the shelter in that storm. It's held up by a strong sense of self, by awareness and honesty about how you respond under stress, and it's helped by having a clear and multi-faceted definition of success. 

Those foundations, when combined with a willingness to take a little time to turn down the short term noise, and dilute the adrenaline fueled feelings of urgency, will give you the ability to lean on yourself and think things through.

Leadership is sometimes about taking action and it is sometimes not.

But it is always about being centered.

So, how well do you know yourself? 

Who are you?

Nicolle Pangis is the CEO of Ampersand. They describe themselves as a data-driven TV advertising sales and technology company.

In a world increasingly dependent on zeros and ones, a world in which AI is moving so fast that some tech leaders are calling for its development to be suspended, it's all too easy to forget the human side of leadership. To forget that, in fact, leaders are human, too.

There are so many influences over the decisions that a leader must make. Profit. Loss. Risk. Reward. Future. Past. Hope. Fear. So many, that our understanding of self often gets lost along the way.

Finding yourself in the middle of that rapidly spinning vortex is not for the unprepared. You need a map. One that shows you the true north of who you are and who you want to be.

If you haven't prepared this map before you step into the role, it becomes harder and harder to create. Instead, you find yourself drawing a path forward that is based on the expectations, the hopes, and the dreams of others.

Life is short. Your career is shorter. Live them both on your terms and you'll be able to measure yourself against the most important set of data in the world.

Your own.

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

Who are you?

Nicolle Pangis is the CEO of Ampersand. They describe themselves as a data-driven TV advertising sales and technology company.

In a world increasingly dependent on zeros and ones, a world in which AI is moving so fast that some tech leaders are calling for its development to be suspended, it's all too easy to forget the human side of leadership. To forget that, in fact, leaders are human, too.

There are so many influences over the decisions that a leader must make. Profit. Loss. Risk. Reward. Future. Past. Hope. Fear. So many, that our understanding of self often gets lost along the way.

Finding yourself in the middle of that rapidly spinning vortex is not for the unprepared. You need a map. One that shows you the true north of who you are and who you want to be.

If you haven't prepared this map before you step into the role, it becomes harder and harder to create. Instead, you find yourself drawing a path forward that is based on the expectations, the hopes, and the dreams of others.

Life is short. Your career is shorter. Live them both on your terms and you'll be able to measure yourself against the most important set of data in the world.

Your own.

Edited highlights of our full conversation.

Who are you?

Nicolle Pangis is the CEO of Ampersand. They describe themselves as a data-driven TV advertising sales and technology company.

In a world increasingly dependent on zeros and ones, a world in which AI is moving so fast that some tech leaders are calling for its development to be suspended, it's all too easy to forget the human side of leadership. To forget that, in fact, leaders are human, too.

There are so many influences over the decisions that a leader must make. Profit. Loss. Risk. Reward. Future. Past. Hope. Fear. So many, that our understanding of self often gets lost along the way.

Finding yourself in the middle of that rapidly spinning vortex is not for the unprepared. You need a map. One that shows you the true north of who you are and who you want to be.

If you haven't prepared this map before you step into the role, it becomes harder and harder to create. Instead, you find yourself drawing a path forward that is based on the expectations, the hopes, and the dreams of others.

Life is short. Your career is shorter. Live them both on your terms and you'll be able to measure yourself against the most important set of data in the world.

Your own.