Music is upstream from politics.Drowned in Sound investigates how the music industry shapes society and how fans, artists, and workers can organise for systemic change. Hosted by Sean Adams, we decode streaming economics, sustainable touring, climate and tech, workers’ rights, and collective solutions with musicians, researchers, and changemakers.
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How to Start a DIY Music Business Before You Feel Ready - Girls Twiddling Knobs on Mission Driven Music Careers
Season 3 · Episode 15
Tuesday, July 22, 2025 • Duration 59:52
What if the very thing that makes you feel like an outsider in the music industry could become your greatest business advantage? How do you build something meaningful when you're convinced you're not qualified? And why might starting before you feel "ready" be the secret to creating lasting change?
This week, Sean talks with Isobel Anderson - founder of Girls Twiddling Knobs, one of music tech's most important feminist voices. Following on from the Mary Spender episode about converting online reach into sustainable income, this conversation explores a different path: how small, mission-driven businesses can create industry change without needing massive audiences.
From a PhD in Sonic Arts to over 25 million Spotify streams to building Girls Twiddling Knobs into one of music tech's most important feminist voices, reaching thousands of women through courses, community, and her acclaimed podcast, Isobel's journey proves that feeling like an imposter might actually be your qualification.
In essence, this episode is about turning industry frustrations into business opportunities, why multiple revenue streams are now reality for musicians, and how to value your work when the world expects creativity for free.
00:00 – Sean's Introduction: Building Your Independent Music Business
02:41 – Isobel Anderson intro: From Singer-Songwriter to Sonic Arts PhD
08:12 – Why Sound Design and Production Details Matter
10:08 – Confronting Misogyny in the Music Industry
20:05 – From Facebook Group to Girls Twiddling Knobs
24:41 – Overcoming Self-Doubt When Learning Something New
30:46 – Why Great Producers Are More Than Technical Experts
33:48 – Valuing Your Work and Putting a Price on Creativity
46:40 – Are Musicians as Vital to Society as Doctors?
49:37 – Balancing Music-Making with Building a Business
55:54 – Sean's Outro Reflections
Key Takeaways:
The 10% Edge: You don't need to be an expert to start teaching others - you just need to be one step ahead of the people you want to help.
Start Before You're Ready: "You are not going to ever be ready to do this" - perfectionism is the enemy of progress.
Mission Before Money: Purpose-driven businesses can be more disruptive than charities because they can make quick decisions and restructure rapidly.
Multiple Revenue Streams Are Reality: Modern music careers require diversified income - it's not a backup plan, it's the plan.
Community Over Confidence: Building safe learning spaces can be more valuable than traditional "confidence training."
The Oram Awards - Recognizing women innovating in music and sound technology
About the Host:
Sean Adams is the founder of Drowned in Sound and manages artists including Charlotte Church and The Anchoress. Beyond founding one of the original music blogs, he's worked with BBC 6 Music and co-produced political podcast The Trawl. Through the DiS podcast, he maps the future of music by exploring culture, politics, and the systems shaping how we create and consume music.
Note: This conversation originally took place a couple of years ago but feels more relevant than ever as musicians navigate the realities of building sustainable, independent careers. If this episode sparks any business ideas, we'd love to hear about them in three years' time.
Mary Spender - Why Now Is Actually The Greatest Time for Independent Musicians
Season 3 · Episode 14
Sunday, July 13, 2025 • Duration 47:26
While most music industry coverage focuses on (poly)crisis and collapse, Mary Spender argues we're living through the greatest era for independent artists in history.
But, but but... what about streaming economics, venue closures, and platform dependence? Don't worry, we get into it.
With over 100 million YouTube views, 34,000 newsletter subscribers, and significant album sales achieved before releasing a single track to streaming, Mary demonstrates there are viable alternatives to industry doom-spiralling.
In this conversation, she reveals her strategies for converting YouTube viewers into album buyers, why artists need to think like entrepreneurs, and what she'd build with Spotify's $400 million Joe Rogan budget.
Sean also asks her about her recent video about why artists should embrace YouTube. Speaking of which, you will be able to see clips from this interview over on Drowned in Sound's YouTube: youtube.com/@DrownedinSound
12:45 What does the future hold for independent artists?
16:56 The 1000 true fan theory
18:51 Should YouTube be the #1 platform for musicians?
24:36 Researching with an open mind. A rare skillset?
29:45 How to convert an audience from YouTube
34:17 What can the UK government do for music?
The Report That Shook the Music Industry & Exposed Inequality
Season 3 · Episode 5
Sunday, March 16, 2025 • Duration 01:09:27
Why does gender bias still dominate radio airplay? And how did one data report force the industry to face its inequalities?
In this episode of the Drowned in Sound Podcast, Sean Adams talks to Linda Coogan Byrne, activist and music consultant behind the Why Not Her? campaign.
Her reports have exposed gender and racial disparities in radio airplay, driving real industry change.
This conversation reveals how data is power or as Linda puts it, “the data validates lived experiences.”
00:00 – Introduction: How One Report Changed Music
01:45 – Meet Linda Coogan Byrne & Her Data Reports
04:30 – The Shocking Gender Disparity in Radio
07:00 – Industry Reactions: Denial, Excuses & Pushback
11:00 – Thin Lizzy, Protest Billboards & Music Activism
15:30 – Has the Industry Improved or Is It Lip Service?
21:00 – Can Music Ever Be Equal?
30:00 – Why Not Everyone Can Be an Activist
38:00 – What Needs to Change for Lasting Equality?
45:00 – How Data Holds Power to Account
50:00 – Final Thoughts & Actionable Takeaways
How Do We Save Our Music Scenes? Meet Sound Diplomacy’s Shain Shapiro
Season 3 · Episode 4
Sunday, March 2, 2025 • Duration 40:03
What makes a great music city? How do governments, venues, and fans keep local music scenes alive? And why is music still not treated as an essential part of a city’s economy?
In this episode of the Drowned in Sound Podcast, Sean Adams speaks with Shain Shapiro, founder of Sound Diplomacy and a leading advocate for integrating music into urban policy. Shain has advised cities and governments worldwide on how to invest in music, build better infrastructure, and ensure that artists and venues don’t just survive but thrive.
The future of music scenes isn’t just about artists - it’s about infrastructure, investment, and policy. Without real change, we risk losing the cultural spaces that make music thrive.
Topics Covered:
The future of music cities: Why local scenes are vital and how they can be protected
Music as an economic and public good: Why governments should treat music like any other essential sector
Emerging music markets: Where the global music hotspots of the future might be
Live Nation: How monopolies shape local music ecosystems
The importance of local media and community spaces in sustaining music scenes
How cities can future-proof music amid climate, economic, and technological shifts
Shain Shapiro explains: “We don’t make data-driven decisions about music the way we do about transit, healthcare, or housing, yet music is an essential part of a city’s fabric.”
Episode Highlights & Timestamps:
00:00 – Introduction: Can We Save Our Music Scenes?
Festivals For Future: Frances Fox on Music’s Role in Climate Justice
Season 3 · Episode 3
Sunday, February 23, 2025 • Duration 01:05:32
Music has long been a force for change but as extreme weather disrupts events and the industry grapples with its own environmental footprint, can music be a meaningful part of the climate justice movement?
In episode 2 of season 3 of the Drowned in Sound Podcast, Sean Adams speaks with Frances Fox, founder of Climate Live and a leader in the UK’s youth climate strikes.
Frances shares her journey from music fan to activist, why festivals are powerful spaces for engagement, and how the music industry can move beyond greenwashing to drive real action.
This episode explores:
Why festivals are at risk from the climate crisis
How music fans can help shape the climate conversation
The role of artists, venues & labels in pushing for a sustainable future
The reality of music’s carbon footprint and what needs to change
The Solar-Powered Pink Bus—and why Climate Live is taking a message of climate justice straight to festival crowds whilst applying glitter and temporary tattoos
From touring impacts to activism strategies, this episode breaks down the intersection of music and climate justice, offering real insights into what fans, artists, and the industry can do next.
“Engaging the unengaged is my jam—when you meet people where they're at, like at a festival, it's very chill.”
– Frances Fox
Episode Highlights:
00:00 – Introduction: Can Music Be a Force for Climate Justice?05:00 – Frances Fox’s Journey: From Festival-Goer to Climate Activist09:20 – Festivals & Climate Change: How Extreme Weather Is Reshaping Live Music15:40 – Touring, Vinyl & Streaming: The Hidden Environmental Cost of Music22:00 – The Solar-Powered Pink Bus: Taking Climate Conversations to Festivals30:00 – Roles in the Resistance: How Fans & Artists Can Push for Industry Change40:00 – Call to Action: What’s Next & How Listeners Can Get Involved
How We Open Music’s Doors to Everyone (Not Just the Rich)
Season 3 · Episode 2
Sunday, February 16, 2025 • Duration 45:49
From grassroots venues and youth music programs to Mercury Prize winners, early support shapes who gets to make music—and who doesn’t. But is access to music a right or a privilege?
Music should be for everyone - but is it becoming a luxury only the privileged can afford?
Episode one of season 3 of the DiS podcast, explores how Youth Music -a UK charity funding grassroots projects - is fighting to create fairer opportunities for young musicians facing financial, social, and industry barriers.
In this episode of the Drowned in Sound Podcast, Sean Adams speaks with Matt Griffiths, CEO of Youth Music, about hidden inequalities in the music industry and the work being done to create opportunities for the next generation of musicians.
From youth-led projects and grassroots funding to the systemic barriers keeping working-class musicians out, this episode explores how music’s future can be more inclusive, diverse, and fair.
This episode also features Ezra Collective’s Mercury Prize-winning speech, where they credit their success to the support they received early on:
“This is not just Ezra Collective’s moment, this is a moment for every single organisation that’s championing young people making music.”
The Drowned in Sound Podcast maps the future of music and explores what's happening in the industry right now, with a strong moral compass. It connects music, culture, and ethics, offering deep dives into the issues shaping the way we create, consume, and sustain music.
Why This Matters:
Music has the power to change lives - but only if everyone has the chance to participate. Rising costs, funding cuts, and industry gatekeeping are making it harder than ever for working-class musicians to break through. In this episode, we explore what’s at stake, what’s changing, and how we can fight for a better future in music.
Will music survive the next 25 years? - Season 3 Prologue
Season 3 · Episode 2
Sunday, February 16, 2025 • Duration 14:31
How will music survive until 2050? Will streaming monopolies and economic pressures lead to music’s decline, or can we build a fairer, more sustainable future?
In this season three prologue of the Drowned in Sound Podcast, host Sean Adams (founder of Drowned in Sound) reflects on his lifelong love of music, the systemic challenges facing artists, and what the next 25 years could mean for independent musicians, grassroots venues, and the future of the industry.
In this series, expect big questions, deep dives, and conversations with artists, industry leaders, and changemakers who are shaping what comes next.
Drowned in Sound’s podcast is about a life built around music—but also how music shapes culture, communities, and change.
Topics in this episode:
Why grassroots venues are struggling
How streaming giants control music discovery
The economic realities of being an artist today
Lessons from past music movements and how they shaped the industry
Why music’s future depends on the choices we make now
How does music get discovered? Favourite venues? Brexit? - Q&A Special: Part 2
Season 2 · Episode 15
Saturday, December 14, 2024 • Duration 21:58
In part two of this Q&A experiment, Drowned in Sound founder Sean Adams delves into various topics, including the process of discovering new music, the complexities of the music industry, and nostalgic reflections on MySpace and defunct London music venues.
He also touches on the importance of human connection in music curation, potential improvements for music streaming platforms, and the socio-political challenges affecting the UK's music industry post-Brexit. Additionally, Sean reflects on memorable interviews.
Thank you to everyone for your questions, please submit any for the next edition to sean@drownedinsound.org and be sure to subscribe to the newsletter at drownedinsound.org
To mark Drowned in Sound's 24th anniversary and before we begin a new season of the podcast, Drowned in Sound founder Sean Adams answers your questions.
Here are some links related to topics covered in the Q&A in case you'd like more context.
Questions for this episode submitted by our social media followers and over on the Drowned in Sound forums:
Sweetsonix on Twitter: A nice easy one. How do we return respect to, and appreciation of, the arts?
Anthony Gibbons who wrote for DiS in the early days: I've had my fair share of interviewing gaffes in my time, so what is the most cringeworthy question you've asked an interviewee and what was their response?
Body in the Thames: If you had to do it all over again, what one thing would you change?
My Yada on DiS forums: What was the first review on the site?
Drastic Measures: Were you aware that Drowned rhymed with Sound when you came up with the name, or was it just a happy coincidence?
Icarus Smicarus: If you could be a DiS album review, which DiS album review would you be?
What is the function of record reviews in 2024?
Season 2 · Episode 14
Tuesday, February 27, 2024 • Duration 01:03:28
Elijah is a profound thinker and this conversations draws on his influential grime nights with Stormzy & Skepta, writing about music, DJing and to his Yellow Square instagram posts, which are a form of community-building journalism that act as prods and prompts that agitate thoughts into focus.
DiS021 | S2: The Future of the Music Press EP13
From his experience as a pirate radio DJ to running Butterz label & clubnights to being a musician and artist manager, Elijah considers yellow squares to be a former of journalism and the conversation explores the ecosystem that feeds into it and swirls around it.
In this conversation with Drowned in Sound founder Sean Adams, we discuss mediums and spaces, online platforms and club cultures. The conversation sways from curation as a form of journalism, the YouTube mindset, Twitter, 10 minute or 10 hour radio shows.
We also try to deconstruct the gatekeeper and the creative challenges facing people working in music, journalism and anything that involves publishing online. We also discuss the joy of Tumblr, yow electronic music in the UK clusters around its pirate radio, BBC media structures, and why not all clubs closing is a bad thing.
Quotes out of context:
“What’s the musical equivalent of a community note?”
“Some people say ‘I don’t make any money’. Well, what do you sell?”
“Imagine if a review is all the possibilities that the album lays down”
“It's one bit of work. With all these different mediums, but it’s just the language hasn't adjusted to, to serve that yet, you know what I'm saying?”
“…there's a hundred thousand, ten thousand histories happening at once. And that's like something that music journalism, the box, cannot fully capture.”
“People just think, ‘oh, that's their job to write about music.’ And it's like, no, their job is to sell advertising space wrapped around the coverage of music. That's what magazines have been historically. Right?”
36:35 How would Mary spend the $400 million Spotify paid Joe Rogan?
38:39 Is long-form content on the return?
43:29 Sean's Outro
Quotable Moments
"Technically it's never been a better time to be a musician than today, even though everyone likes to talk about the heyday. But that was for a very lucky few."
"If you don't have the grassroots, you don't have the artists in Wembley Stadium. Like you don't have that trajectory."
About the Host: Sean Adams is the founder of Drowned in Sound (est. 2000), manages artists including Charlotte Church and The Anchoress, and has worked with BBC 6 Music. Through this podcast, he maps the future of music by exploring culture, politics, and the systems shaping how we create and consume music. At its peak, Drowned in Sound had over 3 million readers. Stay tuned for details about its 25th anniversary celebrations.
Linda Coogan Byrne is a music industry consultant, publicist, and activist known for her gender & racial disparity data reports. She is the CEO of Good Seed PR and founder of Why Not Her?, a campaign pushing for cultural change in music. Her work has influenced radio airplay, festival bookings, and policy decisions. She has been named among the Top 100 Most Influential Women in Ireland, inducted into the Music Week Hall of Honour, and recognized by IMPALA as a Top 20 Woman in Music Activism.
ABOUT THE HOST
Sean Adams is the founder of Drowned in Sound, a pioneering music webzine launched in 2000. Beyond editorial work, he manages artists like Charlotte Church and The Anchoress, operates the DiS independent record label, and contributes to strategic music industry and political advocacy projects. His passion lies in championing diverse music scenes and supporting artists worldwide.
01:04 – The Future of Music: What Will 2050 Sound Like?
02:33 – The Big Challenges Facing the Music Industry
04:44 – Music as an Economic & Public Good: Why Governments Should Care
09:11 – Shain’s Journey: From Record Shops to Global Music Policy
14:08 – Music Cities: How Governments Can Invest in Local Scenes
19:51 – Global Music Growth: Why Africa & Southeast Asia Are the Future
28:25 – Community & Local Government’s Role in Music Sustainability
35:50 – The Live Nation Monopoly, Local Media, & How Cities Can Push Back
40:00 – Final Thoughts: What Needs to Change & What Fans Can Do
Further Reading & Resources:
Sound Diplomacy – Leading global consultancy on music and city planning
Get More Music Insights – Subscribe to the Drowned in Sound Newsletter for deep dives into the future of music.
About the Host:
Sean Adams is the founder of Drowned in Sound, established in 2000 as a pioneering music webzine. Beyond his editorial work, Sean manages artists such as Charlotte Church and The Anchoress, operates the DiS independent record label, and contributes to strategic communications for music initiatives like Music Venue Trust. His passion lies in championing diverse music scenes and supporting artists across genres.
About the Guest:
Shain Shapiro, PhD is the founder and executive chairman of Sound Diplomacy, the leading global consultancy on music and city planning. He also serves as the executive director of the not-for-profit Center for Music Ecosystems. Shain has authored This Must Be The Place: How Music Can Make Your City Better, exploring the intersection of music and urban development. His work has influenced over 130 cities worldwide to invest in music and culture, redefining the value of music in urban settings.
Festivals are already being disrupted—Boardmasters, Standon Calling, and others have faced cancellations due to extreme weather, and independent festivals may not survive rising insurance costs.
The music industry still relies on fossil fuels—From plastic-heavy vinyl production to major labels backed by oil & gas investments, there’s a deeper connection than many realise.
Musicians & fans have power—From sustainable touring to rethinking sponsorships, music can lead the way—but only if more people demand change.
Topics Covered:
Why music is increasingly a career for the privileged
From youth projects to Mercury Prizes: why access matters
How the industry is shutting out working-class talent
The critical role of Youth Music in opening doors
The funding crisis: why 25% of grassroots projects are at risk
“It’s not a pipeline, it’s flight pathways” – how opportunity shapes careers
What real change looks like - and how to make it happen
Please note, this conversation took place in November 2023.
If you're enjoying this podcast, please sign up and support our new newsletter at DrownedinSound.org.
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