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If you're looking for a beer and a sandwich you're in the right place… welcome to Red Hook, Brooklyn, home of dock workers and DocWalkers—meet Jeremy Workman. Jeremy is the director behind the arthouse success story, SECRET MALL APARTMENT. He's also known for LILY TOPPLES THE WORLD, and this year's festival hit, SCHOOL FOR DEFECTORS. 

When thunder rolls in, we duck into the Red Hook Lobster Pound for a beer, and Jeremy shares his experiences as a second-generation filmmaker (shoutout Chuck Workman) and a deeply experienced trailer-cutter, name-dropping Tarantino, Scorsese, and Maitland along the way.

But today's all about the secrets to success in documentary self-distribution. If you haven't seen SECRET MALL APARTMENT, go watch it on Netflix—Jeremy shares the long and self-designed road that got it there. After a SXSW premiere, SECRET MALL APARTMENT had no offers, so Jeremy and his team released it themselves, pushing the "treatise on art" to more than 300 theaters, grossing a million bucks, before landing on Netflix's top five. His take on most distributors? Not kind.

 We also get into how Jeremy funds his films with a tight circle of private investors, his collaborations with Jesse Eisenberg, why a seven-figure sale of LILY TOPPLES THE WORLD didn't feel like a win, and the Ed Pressman memorial that led him straight to Flaco the owl, star of Penny Lane's WILD INSIDE. Plus: how to survive festival rejection (say yes to yourself); inspiration via early Errol Morris, Gary Hustwit, and MAN WITH A MOVIE CAMERA; and why we need Chris Smith on this show. We end the way every DocWalk should: an Italian combo, plus sopressata from Defonte's Sandwich Shop.

DISCUSSION LINKS:

SECRET MALL APARTMENT (2024) | SCHOOL FOR DEFECTORS (2026) | LILY TOPPLES THE WORLD (2021) | THE WORLD BEFORE YOUR FEET (2018) | WILD INSIDE (2026) | AMERICAN PACHUCO: THE LEGEND OF LUIS VALDEZ (2026) | WHO MOVES AMERICA (2026) | SHERMAN'S MARCH (1985) | DEAR MR. BRODY (2021) | TOWER (2016) | THE EYES OF ME (2009) | WHAT IS CINEMA? (2013) | THANK YOU VERY MUCH (2023) | MAN WITH A MOVIE CAMERA (1929) | GATES OF HEAVEN (1978) | THE THIN BLUE LINE (1988) | THEREMIN: AN ELECTRONIC ODYSSEY (1993)

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 Walking Red Hook, Brooklyn
01:11 Meet Jeremy Workman
02:54 SECRET MALL APARTMENT and the self-distribution tease
03:25 How Keith met Jeremy: the DEAR MR. BRODY trailer
04:39 From college job to studio trailers
06:44 Wheelhouse Creative and trailers for documentaries
08:30 Rain, Van Brunt Street and the Red Hook Lobster Pound
11:40 Ed Pressman and a surprise owl
13:51 Developing trailer editors
15:08 Trailers on Jeremy's desk: SHERMAN'S MARCH, WILD INSIDE, WHO MOVES AMERICA
17:29 A synchronicity: the WHAT IS CINEMA? DVD
19:43 Growing up the son of Chuck Workman
22:07 What his father taught him about money and craft
23:50 SECRET MALL APARTMENT in a nutshell
27:21 Twenty-five hours of footage on a $100 camera
28:51 Meeting Michael Townsend in Athens
31:17 Raising money without grants
33:27 Why most distributors disappoint
36:15 Selling LILY TOPPLES THE WORLD: was that a win?
39:40 The SXSW premiere and the decision to self-release
41:42 300 theaters, $1 million and Netflix
45:11 The next chapter: SCHOOL FOR DEFECTORS and consulting
46:08 Gary Hustwit and rethinking the doc industry
47:59 Penny Lane, Gene Gallerano and the dream team
48:38 Advice for first-time filmmakers: say yes to yourself
51:21 What draws Jeremy to a story
52:16 Industrial Red Hook
54:12 Gateway docs: Errol Morris, MAN WITH A MOVIE CAMERA, THEREMIN
56:35 Dream collaborator: Chris Smith
57:57 The Defonte's finale
58:59 What's next, including the Calgary jury
1:00:05 Next week: our 75th episode

You may remember Dana Reilly, New York filmmaker, and UT Radio-TV-Film alum from our walk around Main Street at Sundance this year. Well, she's back in Austin to present her first feature, OUR BODY ELECTRIC, at the AFS Cinema. 

From nimbus clouds, to a walk around the DAZED AND CONFUSED baseball diamond, Dana shares the stories that got her to this auspicious moment at the Northwest park trail. From her expat childhood in London (Chris Columbus' kids went to her school) to PROMISES and the classroom AV cart that hooked her on docs, to Brown, the Washington Post Brand Studio and a quarter-life crisis that landed her in Austin for grad school and an impactful stint at Go-Valley. Keith edited her thesis doc, FAVORITE DAUGHTER—a loving portrait of her mom and her grandmother quarantining together in a Tribeca apartment during COVID. It went from a messy, beautiful jumble to Telluride and MTV Documentary Films (thank you Sheila Nevins!) 

Then the walk goes sideways/back in time. Medieval LARPers take over the park, and pull our attention. Meet the Vinland Texas Vikings, sword-fighting under the Texas sun with helmets, shields and their own strict code of conduct… Dana shares the spotlight for a few moments before we re-center on OUR BODY ELECTRIC.

This episode features a trailer for the film, which follows three women bodybuilders vying for the Ms. Olympia title. And we conclude the walk at the AFS Cinema for the post-screening Q&A… 

When it comes to indie doc-making, Dana tells it like it is, "no one's comin' to save you." Not body-builders, not viking LARPers—no one, but you (& your friends at DocWalks).

DISCUSSION LINKS:

OUR BODY ELECTRIC (2026) | FAVORITE DAUGHTER (2022) | DEAR MR. BRODY (2022) | DAZED AND CONFUSED (1993) | SLACKER (1990) | EL MARIACHI (1992) | SEVEN UP! (1964) | PROMISES (2001) | PUMPING IRON (1977) | PUMPING IRON II: THE WOMEN (1985)

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 Clouds, nimbus puns and a walk in Northwest Park
01:00 Hunting for the DAZED AND CONFUSED baseball field
02:00 Dana Reilly joins us ahead of her AFS Cinema screening
03:00 Born in New York, raised in London
05:00 Ten years at an American school abroad
06:00 SEVEN UP! and Keith's gateway drug
06:30 Documentaries as classroom: the AV cart and PROMISES
08:00 Brown, media criticism and the idea that video is authored
09:45 Post-college New York and the Washington Post Brand Studio
11:00 The quarter-life crisis that led to UT
11:45 Found it: the DAZED AND CONFUSED field
12:30 Why Wiley Wiggins couldn't pitch
14:30 Why Austin, and why UT's hybrid program
17:00 Falling in love with teaching
17:45 FAVORITE DAUGHTER: the thesis about her mom and grandmother
19:00 COVID, Go-Valley and working with Keith
20:30 Editing the beautiful jumble
22:30 Balancing what an audience wants with what Dana wants
24:30 Medieval LARPers: meet the Vinland Texas Vikings
32:30 Back to FAVORITE DAUGHTER and the odd-couple dynamic
33:30 Sheila Nevins, MTV Documentary Films and Telluride
34:45 The hardest part: connecting with an audience
36:00 The long road of OUR BODY ELECTRIC and teaching in New York
37:30 Setting up OUR BODY ELECTRIC and the Olympia
39:00 One bright light, one concern
40:00 Breathe in before you breathe out
41:00 Throwing to the clip

It's a rainy day in Brooklyn, but it sure felt like the sun was shining—guess that's just the effect that Geeta Gandbhir has on those around her! Geeta is having a big year—she just became the first director ever nominated for both documentary feature and a documentary short Oscars in the same year… the first woman, and woman of color with two same year directing noms, challenging the long-standing status of Walt Disney who pulled that feat off in the animated categories decades ago. But we're talkin' docs here and Geeta made two incredible entries last year with the feature, THE PERFECT NEIGHBOR for Netflix, and the short THE DEVIL IS BUSY for HBO. Keith was bowled-over by THE PERFECT NEIGHBOR (produced by Episode 55 guest Alisa Payne) and Geeta shares plenty of behind the scenes details on this singular film. How does a community tragedy in Ocala, Florida become an innovative all-archival film built almost entirely from police bodycam footage? Start with a two-year neighborhood dispute, collect 30 hours of unsynced video, and rely on the talents of editor, Viridiana Lieberman, to figure out a new grammar for 21st-century archival storytelling. No big deal, it just had Keith bawling like a baby, on his second watch, on a plane ride to NYC. No. Big. Deal.

We deep-dive, into a moment when a chance encounter with Spike Lee yields a gig on MALCOLM X, sound-room time on Robert Altman's SHORT CUTS, and a mentorship with Sam Pollard that took her from animated to scripted to documentary by way of WHEN THE LEVEES BROKE. There's real advice here for editors turning directors (know every job on set), directors and editors (get a referee), and anyone telling a story about a community that isn't theirs. We dig into the pending merger, the squeeze on buyers, and why going independent was the only way THE PERFECT NEIGHBOR could exist. 

Plus: her next project on Whoopi Goldberg, the comic books and the spaghetti-less western, SHOLAY that got her here, and a mention of Harry Belafonte, because why not? We bond over DO THE RIGHT THING and she recommends LA HAINE while we successfully avoid the rain, posting-up on Geeta's Prospect Lefferts Gardens stoop to round out our speed round. 

Keith loved this walk, and not just because Geeta is EP'ing his new short doc, MY FIRE ESCAPE (produced by Alisa!). Thank you, Geeta!

DISCUSSION LINKS:

THE PERFECT NEIGHBOR (2025) | THE DEVIL IS BUSY (2024) | DO THE RIGHT THING (1989) | MALCOLM X (1992) | SHORT CUTS (1993) | SUMMER OF SAM (1999) | WHEN THE LEVEES BROKE: A REQUIEM IN FOUR ACTS (2006) | SHOLAY (1975) | SALAAM BOMBAY! (1988) | LA HAINE (1995) | UNTITLED WHOOPI GOLDBERG DOCUMENTARY (TBD)

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 Rain in Flatbush, meet Prospect Lefferts Gardens
01:00 Meeting Geeta and how Doc Walks began
02:00 Two Oscar nominations in one year
03:00 Inside the awards campaign
04:00 Sundance 2025 and the festival run
07:00 What a nomination does for viewership
08:00 THE DEVIL IS BUSY and the long short-film rollout
10:00 How THE PERFECT NEIGHBOR began: Ajike Owens
12:00 Organizing in Ocala, and the stand-your-ground fear
13:00 Keith on the Sundance buzz and what the film is
16:00 Bodycams as A-roll
17:00 From media liaison to 30 hours of footage
19:00 A film about patterns that plays like horror
22:00 Why the police never saw Susan as a threat
23:00 When it became a documentary
26:00 Editing with Viridiana Lieberman and staying inside the footage
28:00 B-roll interstitials as the film's style
30:00 Found footage and the surveillance state
31:00 DO THE RIGHT THING as a touchstone
33:00 Stalking Spike Lee and landing on MALCOLM X
36:00 SUMMER OF SAM and hanging up on Spike
37:00 The scripted years: Merchant Ivory and SHORT CUTS
39:00 Sam Pollard and the turn to documentary
40:00 WHEN THE LEVEES BROKE
41:00 What Sam Pollard is like as a mentor
43:00 From editor to director to producer
45:00 Advice for editors who want to direct
47:00 Advice for directors working with new editors
48:00 Storytelling as human connection, and doing it ethically
50:00 Representation and power on your team
53:00 Where the industry is headed: the merger
56:00 The executives on the inside
57:00 A professor's lesson: artists walk the other side of the street
59:00 Going independent with THE PERFECT NEIGHBOR
61:00 The Whoopi Goldberg documentary
64:00 Gateway films: comic books, SHOLAY, DO THE RIGHT THING
66:00 SALAAM BOMBAY! and LA HAINE
68:00 Final thought: lead with the human story
70:00 Goodbye from the stoop

We hit the trail with Austin's own husband-and-wife filmmaking duo, Andrew and Melissa Shea. They've been married for nearly 30 years, partnered on every film they've ever made, and, according to Ben, may be the first couple to pull that off. Andrew's road to filmmaking was wonderfully circuitous. He started as a New York theater kid, passed the bar in two states, ran a regional theater in Santa Fe for eight seasons, and enrolled at USC film school in his 30s. That's where he met Melissa on day one and immediately clashed with her so badly that their TA had to mediate (hence the episode title). Three decades and two kids later, they're still married and still arguing their way toward great movies.

We trace the full arc of their filmmaking lives, from the narrative features SANTA FE, THE CORNDOG MAN, and FORFEIT to Andrew's pivot into documentary with PORTRAIT OF WALLY, a 13-year legal thriller about a Nazi-looted painting; WRESTLING ALLIGATORS, centered on a chairman of the Seminole Tribe; and BUZZ, his HBO documentary about journalist Buzz Bissinger's reckoning with Caitlyn Jenner. 

Then we arrive at FLAG DAY, Andrew and Melissa's first true co-directing effort, more than a decade in the making. The idea began when they fell in love with Three Oaks, Michigan's self-proclaimed biggest Flag Day parade while spending summers there to escape the Texas heat. Shot with 11 crews during a tense election year, the film is a vérité portrait of a divided community that still finds a way to show up for one another. At its heart is a sunset flag-raising ceremony, scored to Paul Simon's "America," that left the entire crew in tears.

Along the way, we dig into what documentary filmmaking borrowed from Andrew's years in the theater, why FLAG DAY is exactly 75 minutes long, and why the Sheas are giving the film away to American Legions and libraries instead of chasing a paycheck. Plus, a Great Dane at Westminster, a mediator nobody wanted to use, and the possibility that FLAG DAY might just become the Rocky Horror of small-town America.

DISCUSSION LINKS:

FLAG DAY (2026) | SANTA FE (1997) | THE CORNDOG MAN (1999) | FORFEIT (2007) | PORTRAIT OF WALLY (2012) | WRESTLING ALLIGATORS (2016) | BUZZ (2019) | I'LL BE THERE (2023) | DR. STRANGELOVE (1964) | FLASHDANCE (1983) | THE WIZARD OF OZ (1939)

Welcome to the first-ever Doc Walks International! Keith treks to Sweden, to the tiny Baltic island of Fårö, where INGMAR BERGMAN built his creative base. Keith's there shooting for his new documentary, BERGMAN IN DALLAS, about the filmmaker's forgotten 1981 visit to Texas — enjoying an artist's residency at the Bergman Estate. And this journey into the world of Ingmar Bergman brought Keith to this week's guest, Jannike Åhlund, founder of  the Bergman Week festival and chairperson of the Bergman Center, a cultural space and museum here on Fårö.

Jannike reflects on time spent with Bergman, going back to her days as a film critic and editor at the Swedish Film Institute's CHAPLIN magazine. And she's got the stories: the convenience-store pitch that birthed Bergman Week, the actual AI chatbot version of Bergman she's had to sit across from, and why "chasing the truth" through Bergman's autobiography is a fool's errand. We dig deep into the making of PERSONA — pitched in a single sentence — plus, why WILD STRAWBERRIES might be his most perfect film, and how the mother/daughter conflict of AUTUMN SONATA hits Jannike hardest, personally. And she lays out why Bergman had almost no direct disciples. 

Jannike also opens up about co-directing CITIZEN SCHEIN, her own documentary about Harry Schein, the Holocaust survivor who basically invented Swedish film funding and made Bergman's career a possibility.

This episode doubles as a deep dive bit of research for Keith and his doc, and a peek into the life of a cinematic legend; it's a different sort of Doc Walk, and we think you're gonna dig it.

Along the way: Ruben Östlund's double Palme d'Or run (TRIANGLE OF SADNESS, THE SQUARE); shoutouts to filmmakers Bo Widerberg, Jan Troell, Lars von Trier, and Joachim Trier; and Jannike's gateway film (hint: it's French, black-and-white, and involves 400 of something). Plus: windmills, thatched-roof hovels, and Swedish sheep. 

Next time, we're back stateside with Andrew and Melissa Shea, the husband-and-wife team behind FLAG DAY, a verité portrait of small-town Michigan's biggest party.

DISCUSSION LINKS:

SMILES OF A SUMMER NIGHT (1955) | THE SEVENTH SEAL (1957) | WILD STRAWBERRIES (1957) | THE 400 BLOWS (1959) | THROUGH A GLASS DARKLY (1961) | PERSONA (1966) | THE PASSION OF ANNA (1969) | FÅRÖ DOCUMENT (1970) | AUTUMN SONATA (1978) | FÅRÖ DOCUMENT 1979 (1979) | FANNY AND ALEXANDER (1982) | FORCE MAJEURE (2014) | CITIZEN SCHEIN (2017) | THE SQUARE (2017) | TRIANGLE OF SADNESS (2022) | FLAG DAY (2026) | BERGMAN IN DALLAS (TBD)

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 Welcome to Fårö — Doc Walks goes international
01:47 Arriving at the Bergman Center with Jannike Åhlund
02:19 Founding the Bergman Center as an offshoot of Göteborg
02:54 From film critic at Chaplin magazine to meeting Bergman
05:01 How Bergman Week began (the convenience-store pitch)
07:37 Bergman's abandoned plan for a film city on Fårö
09:37 The tax scandal and Bergman's self-imposed exile
10:10 Bergman as an autobiographical filmmaker
11:22 Laterna Magica and the "AI Bergman" chatbot
17:17 PERSONA: reinventing himself as an artist
19:49 Scouting Fårö for THROUGH A GLASS DARKLY
20:26 What Fårö is really like (500 people, then 10,000)
22:54 FÅRÖ DOCUMENT, FÅRÖ DOCUMENT 1979, and the island's politics
23:38 Funding Bergman: the Swedish Film Institute and Harry Schein
33:20 Harry Schein, Ingrid Thulin, and CITIZEN SCHEIN
35:33 Co-directing a documentary after a career of criticism
38:07 The gateway drug: THE 400 BLOWS
41:05 Bergman and the French New Wave
42:19 Swedish filmmakers Americans should know (Ruben Östlund and more)
43:32 What to take away from Bergman's career
44:41 Advice for emerging filmmakers
46:29 Teaser: FLAG DAY with Andrew and Melissa Shea

We walk Hyde Park with longtime friends Sam Wainwright Douglas and David Hartstein — the co-directing team behind Blue Suitcase — and it is not a short story. Turns out it started at Slamdance 2006: David was editing ALONG CAME KINKY: TEXAS JEWBOY FOR GOVERNOR and needed an editor who actually knew Texas; Sam had THE HOLY MODAL ROUNDERS: BOUND TO LOSE playing the same festival. One carpetbagger recognizing another, basically.

Before teaming up, David quietly built a run as a go-to producer — THE HAPPY POET, a Venice Biennale College Cinema slot for BARRACUDA — while Sam directed and edited on his own path, making CITIZEN ARCHITECT, HONKY TONK HEAVEN: THE LEGEND OF THE BROKEN SPOKE and NONO A DOCUMENTARY, among many others. 

Then they finally co-directed together: FADERS UP: THE JOHN AIELLI EXPERIENCE, a loving portrait of the KUT radio legend that started as a short film, went viral off his estate-sale footage, and ended in a standing ovation and an Audience Award at the Paramount during SXSW.

From there the pattern holds — a work-for-hire deep dive into Houston Oilers coach Bum Phillips (LUV YA BUM!) and a gorgeous, prescient border-art doc, THROUGH THE REPELLENT FENCE, about Postcommodity's two-mile art installation stitching the US and Mexico together. Sam and David break down their "good cop, bad cop" creative rapport, the philosophy of "building consensus" instead of dictating on set, and why work-for-hire gigs can be exactly the thing that funds the passion projects.

We close on a lightning round — 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY and STOP MAKING SENSE as gateway drugs, fatherhood and AI as the things they can't stop thinking about. Two decades of friendship, a dozen-plus films between them, and they're still bickering like it's day one.

Keith goes coastal this week, walking the foggy cliffs of Point Lobos, California with Bay Area filmmaker Chris Metzler—co-director of PLAGUES AND PLEASURES ON THE SALTON SEA, EVERYDAY SUNSHINE: THE STORY OF FISHBONE and RODENTS OF UNUSUAL SIZE.

Chris and Keith go back to 2008, when they met at the PBS Producers Academy at WGBH, and their cohort reads like a Sundance roll call: S. Leo Chiang, Su Kim, Christine Turner and more. We dig into how a kid from Independence, Missouri who "hated documentaries" got converted by Errol Morris' FAST, CHEAP & OUT OF CONTROL, picked up a Canon GL1 with his USC dorm-mate Jeff Springer, and spent four years in Final Cut Pro 1 making a comedy about an ecological disaster. Then the twist: a VHS-tape finds its way into the hands of John Waters, and PLAGUES AND PLEASURES ON THE SALTON SEA finds its voice. Chris breaks down exactly what that narration changed—tone, trust, discoverability, and a cult afterlife that now includes Joe Rogan and John Mulaney thinking it's a Waters film.

We also get into the birth of RODENTS OF UNUSUAL SIZE, why co-directing is a relay race (& a play on Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady's "co-directors take-turns" model), and Chris's honest math on client work: independent films don't pay, but "award-winning independent filmmaker" brings clients to the table. 

Along the way there are sea birds & sea lions (and barking filmmakers), a check-in with a plein air oil-painter, spotting a legendary Ansel Adams cypress, and enough rocky, coastal views and 65-degree breezes to cool you down no matter where you're tuning in from.

Plus: insight into Angelo and Norwood from Fishbone, the early days of the Documentary Channel, and not-enough time spent talking about SFIndiefest and SFDocFest, the festivals that Chris helps program and run.

DISCUSSION LINKS:

PLAGUES AND PLEASURES ON THE SALTON SEA (2006) | RODENTS OF UNUSUAL SIZE (2017) | EVERYDAY SUNSHINE: THE STORY OF FISHBONE (2011) | FAST, CHEAP & OUT OF CONTROL (1997) | BARAKA (1992) | AMERICAN MOVIE (1999) | OKIE NOODLING (2001) | SEVENTEEN (1983) | EYES ON THE PRIZE (1987) | THE EYES OF ME (2009) | A VILLAGE CALLED VERSAILLES (2009) | HALE COUNTY THIS MORNING, THIS EVENING (2018) | HOMEGOINGS (2013) | AN INCONVENIENT TRUTH (2006) | GREMLINS (1984) | FOLKTALES (2025)

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 Sea otters, selfie sticks and a high-five slate at Point Lobos
00:43 Treasure Island's real coastline (and the guano)
03:00 Meet Chris Metzler
04:05 How we met: the 2008 CPB Producers Academy at WGBH
05:08 Judith Vecchione, Kathy Lo and the ITVS system
06:35 KQED, Truly California and a DIY festival tour
07:50 Keith on PLAGUES AND PLEASURES ON THE SALTON SEA
09:15 Jeff Springer and the rock-star cohort
12:09 PBS is an amoeba
13:48 Finding a cohort without film school; the Ansel Adams tree
15:41 "I hated documentaries": FAST, CHEAP & OUT OF CONTROL, BARAKA, AMERICAN MOVIE
16:40 Tom Neff, USC music videos and America's Treasures
18:00 Sonny Bono, a Canon GL1 and 200 festivals
19:42 An extra VHS for Ann Alexander's neighbor
21:12 Strange moss, and what a John Waters narration changes
23:00 Joe Rogan, John Mulaney and the long tail of a cult doc
25:25 Bombay Beach Biennale: the Salton Sea becomes a destination
26:49 Meeting plein air painter Coraly Hanson on the trail
29:57 Painters, patience and the serendipity of RODENTS OF UNUSUAL SIZE
31:50 Thomas Gonzales checks his mail: day five of seven
33:08 Talking to strangers with a camera (and flying like the Unabomber)
34:14 Sea lion call and response
37:03 Why Pacific Grove; Independence, Missouri; business plus film at USC
39:24 Thirty years with Jeff Springer; the traveling-salesman inventor dad (GREMLINS)
41:44 Funding RODENTS: Kickstarter first, ITVS finishing funds, red-state stories
44:59 Co-directing as a relay race; Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady's FOLKTALES
50:04 Client work: nonprofits, motion graphics and charging more as the outsider
53:46 Sagebrush
54:20 EVERYDAY SUNSHINE: THE STORY OF FISHBONE (2010, not 2019)
55:59 Lev Anderson, a rainy night at the Independent, "you must be weird guys"
59:17 Doc Walks becomes Doc Drives
1:00:17 Lessons: overconfident but not overconfident; write the treatment, then forget it
1:02:28 The ITVS application as a rough-cut screening
1:03:50 Gateway drugs: FAST, CHEAP & OUT OF CONTROL and SEVENTEEN
1:04:36 SF DocFest and a live Doc Walk
1:05:35 Next time: Sam Wainwright Douglas and David Hartstein

We walk with Margaret Brown, director of BE HERE TO LOVE ME, THE ORDER OF MYTHS, THE GREAT INVISIBLE, DESCENDANT, and THE YOGURT SHOP MURDERS, and winner of Peabody, Independent Spirit, SXSW and Sundance awards.

She brings along Max Pickle, her nine-year-old wire-haired dachshund, who sets the pace: shade, water, and a hard stop whenever he's done. Margaret's deep in publicity mode on THE YOGURT SHOP MURDERS, her HBO series about the 1991 killing of four teenage girls in North Austin. The series premiered on HBO in May, four episodes became five, and the case was solved just three weeks after the finale.

THE YOGURT SHOP MURDERS is screening all week at AFS Cinema, culminating in a special September 3rd screening of Episode 5 featuring a Q&A with detectives from the case, moderated by Richard Linklater. Austin friends, don't miss this one!

Margaret's blunt about the cost. She'd sworn off true-crime podcasts while making it. "Raise a toast to murder" felt like a cheap shot. She froze up in her first interview and holds one line firm: she's the filmmaker, not the detective. Ben has a better read. She flipped on a porch light, and everything came to it.

Then the craft. How she and DP Justin Zweifach built a neon color language out of TWIN PEAKS and DRIVE without letting style flatten the families' honesty. Nobody had asked her about that until now. How A24 paid for crew therapy, a first in her career. How Claire, the UT student who tried to tell this story twenty years earlier, became her secret weapon and the show's spine.

Ben traces the line from BE HERE TO LOVE ME through THE ORDER OF MYTHS, THE GREAT INVISIBLE and DESCENDANT, heavy places and buried histories, and Margaret resists the tidy version. This one was different, and she didn't know what she was signing up for.

Then the Austin part. She and Pamela Colloff met at Brown and moved here in the '90s because they knew everyone at Emo's and could eat for a dollar at Quack's. Pam's "96 MINUTES" became TOWER, and Margaret's push over a 2012 lunch is why Keith made it at all. Margaret also talks about learning to wait for the thing to happen, and finding her own way into filmmaking at a midnight screening of SHADOWS during a New York heat wave, thinking: I have friends. We could film that.

Plus: a stranger yells something unprintable, and it nearly becomes the episode title.

DISCUSSION LINKS:

THE YOGURT SHOP MURDERS (2025) | BE HERE TO LOVE ME (2004) | THE ORDER OF MYTHS (2008) | THE GREAT INVISIBLE (2014) | DESCENDANT (2022) | TOWER (2016) | SHADOWS (1959) | SLACKER (1990) | DAZED AND CONFUSED (1993) | TWIN PEAKS (1990) | DRIVE (2011)

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 Meet Max Pickle
00:47 Ben's Freaks and Geeks era
01:51 Keith's fake film-student music videos
02:26 A stranger yells the episode title
04:15 Late July, and deep in publicity mode
05:36 Why she said no to true-crime podcasts
07:20 "I'm the filmmaker, not the detective"
07:53 Into Casa de Luz
08:01 Claire, the filmmaker who came first
10:35 Four episodes became five
10:53 The case gets solved
11:14 Flipping on the porch light
12:20 A cloud over four accused teenagers
13:38 Secret weapon, and the meta narrative
15:17 The Innocence Project scene
16:36 Justin Zweifach and shooting grief
17:28 Pam Colloff's dare
18:15 TWIN PEAKS and the footage
19:24 Color theory and neon beer signs
22:08 Wiseman: it's still 100% fake
23:22 The body of work, film by film
25:32 Why this one was different
26:32 A24 pays for crew therapy
26:59 "This is the last interview I have to do"
28:01 Celebrities on the trail
28:44 Recognized at the Impact Partners party
30:01 No separation from the work
31:10 When strangers bring you their grief
32:04 Pam Colloff and CATCH THE DEVIL
33:29 Brown, Emo's, and moving to Austin
34:38 Quack's, and old cheap Austin
35:10 The man who cleaned the yogurt shop
36:56 Keith's very old tattoo
37:20 Texas Monthly, and 96 MINUTES
38:31 There would be no TOWER without you
40:13 Lee Daniel, and dating your cinematographer
42:46 Diane Weyermann and Participant
44:19 A weird moment for the industry
45:18 How a project starts now
47:44 Commercials, favors, and paying people
50:18 The BE HERE TO LOVE ME edit Ben walked away from
51:34 The haunted post-production office
52:30 BE HERE TO LOVE ME, re-released
53:17 NYU, her dad, and the animating question
55:41 Bergman, van Gogh, and the cost of an artful life
59:18 Is there a through line?
1:03:14 The guests we still can't book
1:06:17 Improv, and deep listening
1:07:31 Gateway drug: Cassavetes' SHADOWS
1:10:07 A dream collaborator, declined
1:12:00 Where to watch, and AFS on September 3
1:13:10 Next time: Doc Walks International

Keith walks Hyde Park—with a detour into & across the Hancock Golf Course—with LA's Gene Gallerano.  An East Dallas kid raised on the humanities and Poor David's Pub, Gene's an actor-turned-producer-turned-Emmy-winning director, fresh off multiple wins at the Waco FF for THANK YOU FOR LISTENING, his Texas Monthly short about country singer Joshua Ray Walker. The origin story is a rom-com: Gene boards a flight, spots Joshua Ray, and talks to him for seven hours straight—true love at 30,000 feet. Then… nothing. 3 ½ months later, the text: Joshua Ray was diagnosed with cancer, off the road for eight months—do you still want to make something? No money, no camera, no crew. But Gene is all in. He builds a set in the loft at his mom's house, recruits Austin doc-maker Bob Ray to co-direct, and shoots the doc on his late friend Ross McDonnell's camera gear—"just don't change any of his settings, it'll feel like we have him."

From there we work the whole map: moving to the East Village at 19, studying theater under Austin Pendleton, and turning a rejected-everywhere $13,000 "thin feature" — featuring Meryl Streep & Philip Seymour Hoffman among others—into a 19-minute short that premiered at Tribeca: STARRING AUSTIN PENDLETON. Talking his way into hurricane zones with a camera. Producing AMERICAN SYMPHONY with Matt Heineman. And holding the boom for hours in COVID ICUs on THE FIRST WAVE, steadying himself on the repetition of his daughter's favorite lyrics: "a tale as old as time, Beauty and the Beast.".

Plus: a first-ever DocWalks golf swing on a borrowed club, the broads of the East Village, Reed Birney and the break that came at 57, and the advice that sticks—if you have time to worry, you have time to work.

DISCUSSION LINKS:

THANK YOU FOR LISTENING (2026) | AMERICAN SYMPHONY (2023) | THE FIRST WAVE (2021) | STARRING AUSTIN PENDLETON (2016) | THE EYES OF ME (2009) | HELL ON WHEELS (2007) | COOL HAND LUKE (1967) | DAZED AND CONFUSED (1993) | THE DOORS (1991) | BEAUTY AND THE BEAST (1991)

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 First Light Books and a Hyde Park morning
01:09 Meet Gene Gallerano — best projects start in an alley
01:40 THE EYES OF ME and the wedding-table origin story
04:49 A man on the move: Dallas, and Waco Film Festival wins
05:36 Love at 30,000 feet: meeting Joshua Ray Walker
06:56 Ghosted — then the text that changed everything
07:18 Fresh off producing AMERICAN SYMPHONY
08:34 Put yourself in the corner: no money, no camera, no crew
10:13 Star-crossed lovers and the circle of confusion
11:42 Stepping behind the director's chair from a distance
12:20 Building a set in the loft above mom's bed
13:58 The pitch begins with your subject and continues with your crew
16:18 Ross McDonnell's camera: "don't change any of his settings"
18:54 A three-string guitar from a pawn shop
19:06 Every crew member had lost someone to cancer
20:27 The material defines the length: thin features
20:50 STARRING AUSTIN PENDLETON — Streep, Hoffman, and $13,000
24:06 The secret iMovie recut that made Tribeca
25:56 Beat away with a baseball bat — "oh, is he still here?"
26:43 Dayton and the wisdom of just showing up
27:41 East Dallas, Poor David's Pub, and a house full of humanities
29:46 New York at 19: landing in the East Village
31:05 The broads of the East Village
33:23 A first-ever golf swing on the Hancock course
35:47 Classic Stage Company: the North Star on 13th Street
36:20 Studying with Austin Pendleton at HB Studio
38:17 Ivanov with Ethan Hawke — standing on the North Star stage
39:07 Acting: the great impossibility
41:50 The Polish restlessness — done asking permission
42:49 Talking his way into disaster zones
44:22 What rebuilding reveals about people
46:01 THE FIRST WAVE: holding the boom in COVID ICUs
48:33 Tale as old as time
50:35 Nuts and bolts: skitter-scatter brains
52:54 Hybrid films and never overstaying your welcome
53:44 Collaboration, Bob Ray, and HELL ON WHEELS
55:43 The Nonfiction Hot List says yes
57:50 Texas Monthly comes aboard
59:06 If you build it, they will come
1:00:00 Lightning round: DAZED AND CONFUSED meets THE DOORS
1:00:20 COOL HAND LUKE, a perfect film
1:01:33 Advice: if you have time to worry, you have time to work
1:02:16 Reed Birney and the break that came at 57
1:03:32 Next time: Margaret Brown

We were supposed to be in Central Park. We are not. It's raining so we're in Penny Lane's apartment, shoes off, with a cat named Luna auditioning for the role of "the action," and Flaco the Owl on the TV behind us. So much for a walking show.

Penny's deep in what she calls PR season for WILD INSIDE, her new HBO doc about the Eurasian eagle-owl who broke out of the Central Park Zoo in 2023 and spent a year as the most photographed bird in New York. Then she tells us she barely shot it. A volunteer army of Central Park bird photographers had already amassed infinite footage, so Penny's crew went back and shot the reverse angles — Flaco's POV of the people watching Flaco — and rebuilt a whole year of seasons to match. "I don't think anyone understands that we just weren't there all the time."

We go long on money and fear. Eight features in, a ninth half-funded, and her first thought is the tenth. That festivals and awards absolutely do matter, whatever people tell you. That this is her worst financial year and she has a hit, simultaneously.

Plus: NUTS! and the Kansas goat-testicle doctor, cornering the cool dad market, the grad school shoot where Ben watched the levels all night and recorded nothing, Letterboxd as the only proof anyone's watching, EXIT THROUGH THE GIFT SHOP as the film that taught her to make one movie for the 1% and the 99% at once, dirty fuel versus the clean kind — and the thing she can't stop thinking about, which is how much of the internet is just bots talking to bots.

DISCUSSION LINKS:

WILD INSIDE (2026) | CONFESSIONS OF A GOOD SAMARITAN (2023) | LISTENING TO KENNY G (2021) | HAIL SATAN? (2019) | NUTS! (2016) | OUR NIXON (2013) | EXIT THROUGH THE GIFT SHOP (2010) | TARNATION (2003) | THE PERFECT NEIGHBOR (2025) | MARY OLIVER: SAVED BY THE BEAUTY OF THE WORLD (2026)

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 We were supposed to be outside
01:15 Introducing Penny Lane
01:23 PR season for WILD INSIDE
02:02 Lynn, Massachusetts and the city of sin
02:58 Newbury Comics and finding culture pre-internet
04:04 NUTS! and the Kansas goat-testicle doctor
05:43 Cornering the cool dad market
07:16 Kindles, hardbacks, and a book a day
08:51 Podcasts ate her reading and her music
10:48 Grad school at UT Austin with Naiti Gamez
11:33 The shoot where she recorded no sound
14:08 Meeting Gabriel Sedgwick and building a crew
16:52 A year spent arranging the art wall
18:40 Competing with the entire Seinfeld catalog
20:00 Four Kenny G albums before a hit
20:50 When did movies become a prestige art form
22:39 The future of documentary, and why AI can't do it
23:42 Nobody knows your movie is out
24:39 The broadcast era is kaput
25:58 Hunting for her own film on Netflix
28:20 Eight features, a ninth half-funded, already worried about the tenth
30:24 Festivals and awards do matter
31:05 Who paid whom to release the movie
32:40 Not a business, a calling
33:39 The only reward is getting to do the work
34:34 Williams, Hampshire, Colgate, tenure — then quitting
36:07 Dirty fuel and the clean kind
37:40 Stay in shape, paddle out, catch the wave
38:48 Letterboxd as the only feedback loop
41:25 iMovie, mini DV, and TARNATION
44:02 Why she doesn't care what camera it's shot on
45:14 How WILD INSIDE was built from birders' footage
47:18 Shooting the reverse angles
48:46 Rebuilding a year of seasons
50:54 Jeremy finds Flaco first
52:08 How a project actually starts
53:10 Donating a kidney before there was a film
55:45 The film as an imprint of a life
58:13 A hit movie in her worst financial year
59:32 Why a filmmaker runs a Substack
1:02:27 Geeta Gandbhir and THE PERFECT NEIGHBOR
1:04:19 Advice: do what you can do right now
1:05:22 EXIT THROUGH THE GIFT SHOP, the gateway drug
1:06:30 One movie for the 1% and the 99%
1:08:31 Lightning round: is anyone on the internet real
1:09:35 Next time, we actually walk

Ben walks the lake at Mueller with David Liu—director, editor, producer, composer, and until 2024, an AI engineer. Fifteen-plus years in hardware, software, product design and machine learning, and then generative AI showed up and he decided he didn't want his name on where it was going. So he went looking for the one medium the technology can't enter without destroying it… documentary filmmaking.

Here's the crazy part - he never wanted to be a filmmaker. He wanted to score films. A friend pointed out that nobody can stop you from composing your own movie, which meant he now had to go find a story worth telling. Enter Covid, four Austin restaurants and one pandemic. Seventeen shooting days spread across four years. Four years of grant pitches where everyone told him TO BE SEEN was impossible: four subjects, non-linear, no way.

He shot it with almost no lighting, no rehearsals, and a rule about never overstaying his welcome, because the second take is where the artifice creeps in. Fiore Tedesco of L'Oca d'Oro handed him the title in the first sit-down, "you don't need a restaurant to eat, you need a restaurant to be seen." Plus a three-hour interview that became the spine of the film. Then the assembly came back all talking heads, and he sat stuck for a full year, thinking he had made a huge mistake.

What unstuck him was filming  chefs mushroom-hunting in the Pacific Northwest. That short—HIDDEN STORIES–FORAGED AND FOUND—went to DOC NYC, two hundred people went dead silent, and he had his formula.

Plus: cashing out the retirement account to finish, and finding out at the premiere— sitting next to chefs who had never seen a frame—that the thing is actually good.

DISCUSSION LINKS:

TO BE SEEN (2026) | HIDDEN STORIES–FORAGED AND FOUND (2024) | VALLEY UPRISING (2014) | FREE SOLO (2018) | CHEF'S TABLE (2015) | FIRE OF LOVE (2022) | THE FIRE WITHIN: A REQUIEM FOR KATIA AND MAURICE KRAFFT (2024)

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 Sync, sync—and a thesis: "my job is to discover the answers"
00:22 Your job as an artist is to pose the question
00:40 Fifteen, twenty years of engineering, and a pretty big gamble
01:00 Riley, cue the music — David Liu, ladies and gentlemen
01:30 Toasty and muggy: Mueller, the lake, and the ducks
02:00 To Be Seen, four Austin restaurants, and the AFS Cinema premiere
02:40 The Bullock on the 13th, Austin Public on the 14th
03:00 L'Oca d'Oro, Foreign & Domestic, LeRoy and Lewis, Pho Craft
03:30 "I never tried to get into filmmaking"
03:55 A terrible idea: just make your own film and score it
04:20 A calling card for a production company that didn't exist yet
05:00 Failing at pop songs, accidentally good at scoring to picture
05:45 Play every instrument badly — that's a composer
06:40 Hoping for narrative, and what the industry decided instead
07:15 Hardware to software to product design to AI
08:00 2018, and a career that started taking off
08:30 The gut says hedge: what if it goes wrong?
09:00 Looking for the most opposite thing, and finding documentary
09:40 Use AI in a doc and it's no longer a doc
10:20 What he didn't like about where doc was going
10:40 Too lit, too rehearsed, too formulaic
11:00 Chasing celebrity, crime, cults — the three Cs
11:20 Four years of grant pitches: "you're breaking all the rules"
11:45 No lighting, high verite, nothing rehearsed
11:55 Seventeen shooting days over four years
12:10 Don't overstay your welcome — the guttural first reaction
12:50 Quitting in 2024, and watching how people were using it
13:20 Conference talks, reputation, and a better use of storytelling
14:00 Deep fakes, meme manipulation, and the removal of autonomy
14:40 "I got into this for curing cancer and weather predictions"
15:00 Teach it to desalinate water, not to make our paintings
15:45 If it's automatable and nobody likes doing it — perfect
16:20 Cost, displacement, and who's to blame when it goes wrong
17:30 "We can save money by removing jobs." You're looking at it wrong
18:30 The layoffs start, and the writing was on the wall in early '23
19:00 Reading the 10-Ks: something ain't mathing
19:40 The better question — what would I regret not doing?
20:40 Burning the entire retirement account
20:55 Films will probably outlast every tech company
21:45 "Everybody says I'm wrong. What if I just try?"
22:00 Herzog, and the two volcano docs about the same subject
22:45 Stopping at the water — L'Oca d'Oro is right over there
23:00 The lockdown steps where he started writing music again
23:30 Fifteen years since he'd touched it. It's not great, but it's there
24:00 How do you shoot a documentary? YouTube
24:15 Cashing out in 2023, and never planning to direct this
24:50 Late '22: an LLC, some gear, and the pieces of a company
26:00 Product design, problem-solving, and "everybody says it's impossible"
26:35 What a restaurant symbolizes for a community
27:20 Non-linear time, the thing they said would never work
28:00 He thought it was a 30-minute episode
28:15 First interview you're wrong, second you're on a bigger story
29:00 If I don't tell it, this gets lost to time
29:30 An introvert asks why he even goes to a restaurant
29:50 Fiore's line: you need a restaurant to be seen
30:10 COVID takes the thing away — the existential test
31:00 Snowpocalypse, Valentine's Day, and what we've chosen to forget
32:40 Processing the collective trauma, and a worldwide audience
33:00 The real subject: how we, the patrons, changed
33:20 Less patient, less personal, more hyperindividual
33:50 Why nobody wants to go to a theater anymore
34:00 Thaison Nguyen of Pho Craft saw the insularity coming
35:45 Fine dining chefs, a precarious moment, and the ask
36:20 Authenticity goes both ways
36:50 No rehearsing, no fabricated emotional places
37:45 The interview style changes halfway through the film
38:00 Sitting down in 2020, standing in their space by 2022
38:30 An assembly of pure talking heads, and a full year stuck
39:00 A trip across the country, and matsutake in the snow
39:50 Accidentally handheld, the entire time
40:00 Mic'd under the vent hood in the loudest place possible
40:20 Hidden Stories–Foraged and Found goes to DOC NYC
40:40 Two hundred people, dead silent. That's the formula
41:10 And then the last two subjects said yes
42:00 Standing in front of L'Oca d'Oro
42:45 "Oh — you did that to make it through?"
42:50 Fiore Tedesco, and philosophy through restaurant ownership
43:50 A three-hour interview becomes the spine of the film
44:20 It's not what's on the plate, it's what's not on the plate
44:30 One restaurant wins a Michelin star. One goes out of business
45:00 Chef's Table, Bourdain, and the lens nobody else has used
45:30 Adam Orman, and a calling card for the working class
45:40 Brain drain: the institutional knowledge that walked out
46:30 The worst thing you can do — not showing them until the premiere
47:20 Restaurants play music, and restaurants are loud
47:40 Ninety percent of the sync audio, stripped
47:50 Rebuilding the entire kitchen with Soundcrafter, mixed in Atmos
48:40 Did you make the film you set out to make?
48:50 "If it's not good, I'll go back to tech." It's good
49:00 Now the distribution rules are being rewritten
49:50 Self-distributing, and selling the partnership instead of the film
50:10 Supper club screenings, and making it an event
50:30 The restaurants showed up, and got to be the heroes
50:55 Lightning round
51:00 The gateway drug was climbing films
51:15 Valley Uprising, Sender Films, and actually climbing in Yosemite
52:00 Chef's Table, Alinea, and eating at the restaurant afterward
52:50 Herzog, Ken Burns, and the rungs of documentary
53:40 You never hear his voice — but the editing changes
54:00 The Pho Craft reveal: the painting is in his apartment
55:20 Not everything lasts, and it still can be beautiful
56:00 Advice: do it, and don't follow the rules
56:30 Pathfinding, and why "nobody knows" is the right place to be
57:30 Documentary got too safe
58:00 What he can't stop thinking about: the new normal
58:30 No income, and an industry eating itself alive
59:00 Attention spans, plasticity, and how we adapt
59:50 Asking all the right questions
1:00:00 tobeseenfilm.com, @tobeseenfilm, and Narriforge

When Hisko Hulsing is in town, you grab your camera & mic, and hit the trail, ready to court controversy with the best oil-painting animator this side of the Netherlands. Hisko is the wild artist that doc-maker Brett Morgen trusted to paint the inside of Kurt Cobain's head for MONTAGE OF HECK. He's a director who's marshalled the talents of dozens of artists over multiple years to bring HARRY RENTS A ROOM (1999), SEVENTEEN (2003), and JUNKYARD (2012) to life. He's known for his uniform black shirts, his loose brush strokes, and his penchant to speak his mind…

Keith and Hisko are two of the only roto-animation directors working in docs and that's not all they share: they've both collab'd with Austin-animation studio Minnow Mountain, and both have TV projects with BOJACK HORSEMAN producers Tornante. It's through Tornante that Hisko and Keith met, years ago, on the set of Amazon's UNDONE. Back when Hisko was —his words— in a panic. Flying between LA and Amsterdam and back again, directing Rosa Salazar and Bob Odenkirk live on a green screen taped-off like Lars Von Trier's DOGVILLE, then going home to tirelessly train ten painters to work in oil, in his personal style, Hisko's UNDONE was almost his own undoing. Three cities, a 17th-century atelier, and a show built on interdimensionality and ambiguity — he pitched the showrunners the dream sequences from ROSEMARY'S BABY and lived up to the premise. 

He takes us back to his own relationship to art and psychosis: in Amsterdam, taking-up weed at age twelve, a grow operation at fifteen, skipping every class except philosophy and drawing, and hallucinating the world "in an oil painted manner." A journeyman animator/filmmaker, everything changed when JUNKYARD went viral and a cold email arrived from Brett Morgen. Suddenly he had four months to make what had taken him nearly six years. Sixty oil paintings, a team of collaborators, and a house of cards that crashed around him before finally winning-over Courtney Love and Frances Bean Cobain with his hand-painted efforts to bring an icon into sharp, re-imagined relief. 

And now, today. In the face of conflict and controversy: DANSE MACABRE (2026), his new short that just premiered at Annecy to… protests, walk-outs and a vocal minority boo-ing. Hisko tells his side of the story—how DANSE MACABRE came to life and how a guild-led protest over his use of a self-trained AI shader sparked an international dialogue about AI tools that is still unfolding. When they announced his name, lost in the cacophony of boos and loud walk-outs, Hisko said, "thank you and fuck you," offering his dissenters his middle finger.

This one's complicated. Hisko thinks he's gotten a bum deal from out of touch "purists" who don't know the difference between AI, machine learning, and indie filmmakers making their best work in new ways. He also believes that OpenAI should be forced to fund every artist it scraped. This is new territory… and the conversation is just beginning—Hisko wants your honest review. Plus: why animation is an opportunity to dream, not a way to cover the bald spots in your doc, and shoutouts to animator Craig Staggs (TOWER & UNDONE), Raphael Bob-Waksberg, Peter Bogdanovich, and Pink Floyd.

DISCUSSION LINKS:

JUNKYARD (2012) | LAST HIJACK (2014) | COBAIN: MONTAGE OF HECK (2015) | UNDONE (2019) | THE SANDMAN (2022) | DANSE MACABRE (2026) | THE MAKING OF DANSE MACABRE (2026) | THE EYES OF ME (2009) | TOWER (2016) | THE KID STAYS IN THE PICTURE (2002) | CHICAGO 10 (2008) | WAKING LIFE (2001) | SLACKER (1990) | DOGVILLE (2003) | ROSEMARY'S BABY (1968) | THE TENANT (1976) | REPULSION (1965) | KNIFE IN THE WATER (1962) | CHINATOWN (1974) | WALTZ WITH BASHIR (2008) | PINK FLOYD: THE WALL (1982) | FANTASIA (1940) | BOOGIE NIGHTS (1997) | INHERENT VICE (2014) | ALITA: BATTLE ANGEL (2019)

Spark up a big cigar with Ben and filmmaker David Alvarado in honor of  Luis Valdez, the central figure in Alvarado's new film AMERICAN PACHUCO (playing Austin's Cine Las Américas). A Dallas kid turned Brooklyn doc-maker, David found his calling twice: once when LA BAMBA (1987) showed him a Chicano family reaching the American dream, and again when a college cinéma-vérité class screened A TIME FOR BURNING (1966), which blew the medium wide open for him.

We trace the whole arc—from a high-school dropout turned straight-A student at the University of North Texas, to the Stanford MFA where David partnered with Jason Sussberg and built Structure Films. Then there's the science trilogy: THE IMMORTALISTS (their $400K-and-ramen first feature), BILL NYE: SCIENCE GUY (a record-smashing Kickstarter, now in the Library of Congress), and WE ARE AS GODS, the Stewart Brand doc that was spun into an eight-hour Audible series. 

But right now, we're puffing smoke about AMERICAN PACHUCO, a tribute to a personal hero—Luis Valdez, the playwright behind ZOOT SUIT and LA BAMBA. The doc won the U.S. Audience Award at Sundance this year amid ICE-raid headlines, and David makes the case that the Chicano story is the American story—right down to the cigar in our hands, pure American tobacco the Maya smoked before Columbus set foot on these shores. This one goes deep (to the indigenous root) as we hit the trail and take hits on these stogies with Sundance-winner David Alvarado.

DISCUSSION LINKS:

AMERICAN PACHUCO: THE LEGEND OF LUIS VALDEZ (2026) | THE IMMORTALISTS (2014) | BILL NYE: SCIENCE GUY (2017) | WE ARE AS GODS (2021) | LA BAMBA (1987) | ZOOT SUIT (1981) | A TIME FOR BURNING (1966) | TRUE CONVICTION (2017) | OFF THE CHARTS: THE SONG-POEM STORY (2003) | THE KING OF KONG: A FISTFUL OF QUARTERS (2007) | HORRIBLE BOSSES (2011) | FOUR CHRISTMASES (2008) | SALESMAN (1969) | PRIMARY (1960) | PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE (2002) | YOUNG GUNS (1988) | I AM BIG BIRD: THE CAROLL SPINNEY STORY (2015) 

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 Cigars, sugar-cane tips & "espresso parenting" 03:27 Meet David Alvarado & AMERICAN PACHUCO 04:20 Who is Luis Valdez? (LA BAMBA, ZOOT SUIT) 08:57 Meeting Valdez in college & founding Texas Filmmakers 09:32 Dropping out at 17 11:42 PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE wakes him up 13:10 North Lake to UNT — straight A's 14:15 A TIME FOR BURNING & the vérité awakening 16:51 Ben's own awakening: SALESMAN 18:34 Walking Mabel Davis Park 19:20 THE IMMORTALISTS & the Stanford years 26:20 Aubrey de Grey, Bill Andrews & the longevity gamble 28:49 Hot Docs, Big Bird & "the Big Bird of science" 29:52 Finding Bill Nye 33:29 Seth Gordon, Jamie Meltzer & TRUE CONVICTION 34:22 OFF THE CHARTS: THE SONG-POEM STORY 35:35 "Goddammit, Tony!" — a filmmaker on the trail 38:39 The record-breaking BILL NYE Kickstarter 41:56 WE ARE AS GODS, Stewart Brand & Stripe 46:34 Pandemic pivots: kids, Brooklyn & the Audible series 49:55 Back to AMERICAN PACHUCO & Luis Valdez 51:19 Belonging, the Chicano story & indigenous roots 54:49 Cigars, Che, Castro & pure American tobacco 57:41 Funding the film: PBS, Ford, the grant road 59:47 Sundance, the Audience Award & the ICE-raid moment 01:04:46 Lightning round & advice to young filmmakers 01:11:03 Next time: Hisko Hulsing

We walk Austin's Boggy Creek Trail with acclaimed memoirist Lauren Hough — from a childhood spent in a cult to Air Force vet to ex-cable technician; and now, she's the writer whose viral essay about fixing people's cable got read 8 million times in a single weekend. Lauren's backstory is so enormous it usually eats a whole interview: she grew up in the Children of God, got run out of the military under Don't Ask Don't Tell (they torched her car), flipped a coin between Atlanta and DC, and told dumb cable-guy stories at the Iron Bear until one of them turned into a book. That book, LEAVING ISN'T THE HARDEST THING, made her a New York Times bestseller and got Cate Blanchett to narrate the audiobook — and, yes, she brought Cate to the Iron Bear.

Now book two, MONSTER OF A LAND, is days from release and Lauren is, in her words, throwing up about it. We get into the terror of the follow-up, why she loaded her very cute dog Woody Guthrie into a Dodge van and drove the country like Steinbeck's TRAVELS WITH CHARLEY, and what she actually found out there — not the screaming internet, but hunters in Georgia helping a stranger find a campsite and neighbors defending neighbors when ICE rolled into Minneapolis. Along the way: the cult was boring (too many guitars, bad Bob Dylan rip-offs, one paragraph of hard-won Civil War research), the octagon on the White House lawn is sponsored by Monster Energy, and the cure for all of it might just be to log off and go hang out. Plus: worry monsters in a little free library, why she can't stop muttering about that octagon, and why chasing one good sentence feels like a serial killer chasing a high.

DISCUSSION LINKS:

MONSTER OF A LAND (2026) | LEAVING ISN'T THE HARDEST THING (2021) | TRAVELS WITH CHARLEY (1962) | CAPTURING THE FRIEDMANS (2003) | SINGIN' IN THE RAIN (1952) | IDIOCRACY (2006) | THE CIVIL WAR (1990) | KITCHEN CONFIDENTIAL (2000) | EDUCATED (2018) | THE SLIP (2025) | CATCH THE DEVIL (2026)

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 Becoming the podcast people they used to heckle at the Iron Bear 01:48 Your family's not gonna read your book 04:05 Meet Lauren Hough, and the David Sedaris comparison 05:06 The cult, the military, and Don't Ask Don't Tell 08:33 They torched my car — getting out and landing in DC 15:37 The cable guy essay that 8 million people read 16:31 Bringing Cate Blanchett to the Iron Bear 18:40 Why nonfiction, and modeling the book on Travels with Charley 21:04 Capturing the Friedmans and stories that take a U-turn 24:20 "I remember needing to pee" — the detail that unlocks an essay 29:27 The cult was boring: diapers, Singin' in the Rain, bad Bob Dylan 32:32 Second-book terror (and throwing up) 33:57 Woody Guthrie, the Dodge van, and no Subaru sponsorship 36:00 Texas Highways vs. the conversations she actually wanted 39:17 What she found on the road: kindness, Minneapolis, Georgia hunters 41:38 Log off and go hang out — screens broke our brains 42:05 The AI fight: her brother, ChatGPT, and what actually matters 44:37 Nine months in Durham where nobody pet the dog 46:18 Boggy Creek Trail — stick libraries and worry monsters 49:00 Between therapists, courtesy of the VA 50:44 There's an octagon on the White House lawn (it's Idiocracy) 52:07 The Fox News callback from the cable essay 54:08 Lightning round: Bourdain as the gateway drug 55:42 Advice for writers, and Austin's book crew 59:29 Pop-Tarts, and a great place to end

Take a spirited walk though East Austin, Black History, and the Texas State Cemetery with filmmaker, educator, and self-described activist-artist Ya'Ke Smith—on Juneteenth week, no less. We kick off our walk under a Moonlight Tower and basically never stop moving: past Franklin Barbecue (pour one out for the old Ben's Barbecue), over to the Victory Grill, and into a cash-deal for some Bass Reeves-inspired street art. Ya'Ke walks Keith through CYCLES OF RESILIENCE, his new doc chasing a Juneteenth bike ride across Austin's erased and revitalized Black landmarks. We get into JUNETEENTH: FAITH AND FREEDOM, his PBS doc, and the role of an activist and an artist in search of community. Ya'Ke explains why he refuses the "documentary filmmaker" label, because "film is film" of course—thank you, Agnes Varda. And it's only fitting that our wander into the Texas State Cemetery (a DocWalks first) becomes the backdrop for a discussion on the spiritual side of filmmaking and how Ya'Ke's new hybrid short ANGELS WATCHING OVER ME grew out of Paula White's "African angels" prayer for Trump and the gutting of DEI on his own campus. 

Angels, maybe ghosts… and graveside visits with Stephen F. Austin (father of Texas), Sarah Weddington (Roe v. Wade), Bill Witliff (Lonesome Dove screenwriter), Barbara Jordan (legislative pioneer), and Cedric Benson (Longhorns legend) serve to remind us what matters as artists, and storytellers revealing untold histories and creating opportunities for empathy. Ya'Ke and Keith cover a lot of territory landing with the former's origin story: as an 11-year-old in San Antonio watching BOYZ N THE HOOD and knowing, right then, that movie-making was the way. Plus: 4000 Black Juneteenth liberators, ideas that "impregnate" you until you birth them, the spiritual battle Ya'Ke thinks we're all fighting, inspiration via Ernest Dickerson's 10-minute storyboards on THE DEUCE, and why—even in despair—you've got to find the joy. 

His advice for filmmakers? In the words of Nike: just do it.

DISCUSSION LINKS:

CYCLES OF RESILIENCE (2026) | JUNETEENTH: FAITH AND FREEDOM (2022) | WOLF (2012) | ANGELS WATCHING OVER ME (2026) | THE OHIO, TEXAS REMIX (2025) | BOYZ N THE HOOD (1991) | WHEN THEY SEE US (2019) | THE DEUCE (2017) | TOWER (2016) | THE MS. PAT SHOW (2021) | LONESOME DOVE (1989) | BARBAROSA (1982) | RED HEADED STRANGER (1986) | THE PERFECT STORM (2000) | HONEYSUCKLE ROSE (1980) | THE BLACK STALLION (1979) | THE THIRD MAN (1949) | THE LONG GOODBYE (1973)

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 Walking into Rosewood, East Austin 02:33 Meet Ya'Ke Smith 02:45 Cycles of Resilience and the East 11th mural 04:52 I-35, redlining and the 1928 master plan 08:07 Shooting a bike ride: three cameras, a drone and GoPros 14:30 The Victory Grill 16:45 Meeting artist Marshall Fabella and his Bass Reeves painting 19:52 Agnes Varda and "film is film" 20:39 Refusing the label, and directing The Ms. Pat Show 22:58 Into the Texas State Cemetery 28:05 Bill Wittliff, Sarah Weddington and Barbara Jordan 31:08 Rewriting history, book bans and the university 33:34 Angels Watching Over Me and Paula White's "African angels" 40:10 Wolf and the power of the room (thank you, Barbara Kopple) 44:21 Juneteenth: Faith and Freedom 47:40 Finding joy in the despair 48:45 Ideas that impregnate you 50:08 The gateway drug: Boyz n the Hood 52:58 Buying the Bass Reeves painting 54:09 Advice for filmmakers: just do it 55:40 Creighton Gerst, Super 8 and self-editing 58:09 Dream collaborators: Max Richter, Bradford Young, Ernest Dickerson 01:00:25 The mural, the Masons and community 01:04:39 Next time on Doc Walks

We hit the streets of South by Southwest with Isaac Gale—director, artist, and one-half of the Minneapolis noise outfit Marijuana Deathsquads, in town to play the fest with his band. Isaac's the kind of guy who'd rather break a piece of software than master it, and that restless, try-anything energy runs through everything he makes. We wind through Ben's old neighborhood and retrace how the two first met—around WINNEBAGO MAN, which Isaac's partner JoLynn Garnes cut an early version of—then dig into SWAMP DOGG GETS HIS POOL PAINTED, the gloriously weird doc Isaac co-directed with the famously camera-shy Ryan Olson. It premiered at South by in 2024 and got scooped up by Magnolia Pictures for a theatrical run.

We trace the whole origin story: a cold call to Ryan's label (Totally Gross National Product), a 2017 trip to shoot one sad music video, and a house so perfect—Swamp Dogg, Moogstar, and Guitar Shorty living together like a psychedelic Brady Bunch—that they never wanted to leave. The pool getting painted becomes the anchor, so everything else (Mike Judge, Johnny Knoxville, Tom Kenny, a blink-and-you-miss-it Yo La Tengo cameo) gets to be as chaotic as it wants. Isaac walks us through the hand-built AI intro—a Swamp Dogg model trained on a PC in his bedroom and iterated for a year and a half—and why he's fine getting his hands dirty with tools everyone loves to hate.

Then the good stuff for emerging filmmakers: make it like a band, keep your crew close, and if you can't find money, make it without money. Plus CRUMB and AMERICAN MOVIE as gateway drugs, a dog named Ricky, the first time in 50+ episodes we've run out of card space, and why Minneapolis—community and all—is the thing Isaac can't stop thinking about.

DISCUSSION LINKS:

SWAMP DOGG GETS HIS POOL PAINTED (2024) | THE FEARLESS FREAKS (2005) | WINNEBAGO MAN (2009) | CRUMB (1994) | AMERICAN MOVIE (1999)

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 Markers, selfie sticks, and SXSW sunburn 01:00 Ben's old neighborhood and how he and Isaac met 03:00 Artist vs. musician: Marijuana Deathsquads 04:00 Ryan Olson, the co-director who won't be photographed 05:00 SWAMP DOGG GETS HIS POOL PAINTED premieres at South by 07:00 A Doc Walks first: the SD card fills up 08:00 Take two: the Magnolia acquisition and theatrical run 10:00 Origin story: a cold call to Total Gross National Product 11:00 Showing up to shoot a music video in 2017 12:00 Who is Swamp Dogg? Ben the music head 14:00 Crooner to country: "She's All I Got" and John Prine's "Sam Stone" 16:00 Auto-tune, Justin Vernon, and Love, Loss & Auto-Tune 17:30 The "I'll Pretend" video; meeting Moogstar and Guitar Shorty 20:00 Naming the film: the pool as the anchor 22:00 Card-table cameos: Mike Judge, Johnny Knoxville, Tom Kenny, Yo La Tengo 24:00 Ricky the dog crashes the walk 25:00 100+ music videos and art school 26:00 MCAD, flatbeds, and editing like painting 28:00 Directing in any medium: Unreal Engine and breaking the tools 30:00 The AI intro: building a Swamp Dogg model in his bedroom 33:00 Being in a band at 40; "you should try making a podcast" 34:00 Lightning round: the gateway docs (CRUMB, AMERICAN MOVIE) 36:00 Advice: make it like a band, make it no matter what 37:00 Keeping your crew close: WINNEBAGO MAN lessons 38:00 Not film: Minneapolis, community, and standing together 39:00 Where to find Isaac and the Swamp Dogg Blu-ray

Meet Juli Berwald—a marine biologist turned science writer and the author of an invertebrate page-turner—she's the founder of a coral-reef nonprofit in Honduras, aaaaand she's producing her first doc. Throughout our waterfront walk at Ladybird Lake Juli opens up about her adventures in science writing—how getting fired off a book project (& replaced by Elizabeth Kolbert) inspired Juli to create her own destiny and finally write her own book.

What follows is a masterclass in turning science into memoir called SPINELESS—a jellyfish book secretly structured like a jellyfish lifecycle, complete with a fever dream that sent her to Japan to find the world's biggest jellyfish (spoiler: it died right in front of her). We dig into "hiding behind the facts," the boldness it takes to put yourself on the page, and the best creative-accountability advice we've heard yet: combine a tight writing group with Elizabeth Gilbert's "take your project on a date," add in some John August-style sprints while following a roommate's admonition to "write the worst book you can—"and you're on your way.

Theres's a whole lot of science, a bunch of laughs, and some doc-stuff in this one too. THE REBEL REEF: SEEDS OF HOPE is Juli's hopeful short doc about a reef to remember and divemaster Christian Carias, whose own healing becomes the heart of the film. Plus composer Chad Cannon (AMERICAN FACTORY, JOIN OR DIE), a $100K biobank dream, and perhaps an answer to the question of "how do you get to Symphony Space?"

Also: An entire taxonomy of recumbent coots; shoutout to a Charles and Ray Eames numerically inspired mid-century film; and the official-yet-disputed name of a celebrated Austin footbridge. And yes—Juli already has another book on the way…

DISCUSSION LINKS:

THE REBEL REEF: SEEDS OF HOPE (2026) | POWERS OF TEN (1977) | AMERICAN FACTORY (2019) | JOIN OR DIE (2023) | WINNEBAGO MAN (2009) | SPINELESS (2017) | LIFE ON THE ROCKS (2022) | THE SHELL SEEKER (2026)

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 High fives and meeting Juli 01:00 Marine biologist to author 02:00 A miserable Texas postdoc (subsidence vs. sinking) 04:30 Becoming a writer: Think Well's CD-ROM textbooks 06:00 Laid off, then freelancing for National Geographic 11:00 The ONE CUBIC FOOT gig—and getting fired off it 14:30 The Pfluger footbridge and Lady Bird Lake history 18:00 THE REBEL REEF preview: a hopeful documentary 19:00 "I can't write a book like that"—finding her voice 21:00 SPINELESS: jellyfish and growing a spine 23:00 Willing to get lost 25:00 "Write the worst book you can—but write it" 27:00 A fever dream sends her to Japan 28:30 Finding the giant jellyfish (it dies) 31:00 Building a book around the jellyfish lifecycle 36:00 Our hideout: duckweed, Barton Springs, cyanobacteria 38:00 The Puum Temple and possums vs. opossums 39:30 Creative accountability and the writing group 47:00 BIG MAGIC: take your project on a date 50:00 The 20-minute timer and John August's sprints 52:00 Recumbent coots and the title hunt 53:00 THE REBEL REEF: the Honduras coral story 55:00 Christian Carias and the heart of the film 58:00 Cinematography, score, and the crew 61:00 Lightning round: the gateway book (Henrietta Lacks) 63:00 Advice for emerging storytellers: practice 64:00 Carnegie Hall, Yo-Yo Ma, and a floating cello 68:00 Crediting Dayton and where to find Juli's work

We hit the boardwalk with Luke Korem—the Emmy-winning documentary director behind DEALT, MILLI VANILLI, and ACTION—and somewhere between a guy blasting EDM off a portable speaker and the bats under the bridge, Luke hands us a filmmaking philosophy worth bottling: it's all the same muscle. Doc, series, scripted—storytelling is storytelling, and the trick is knowing a series is a sprint and a feature is a marathon.

Luke walks us through the whole arc: his accidental first feature LORD MONTAGU (a chairman, a castle, fifty grand, and four guys who'd never made a film), the SXSW-winning DEALT about blind card magician Richard Turner, and how the real story is never the hook—when it comes to DEALT, it's a man learning to embrace his weakness. We get the gospel of "no control" (the studio that passed on MILLI VANILLI, then came begging six months later), why he prays his way through the gambles, and why AI makes real human stories more valuable, not less.

Then Ben hijacks his own podcast with the greatest one-that-got-away in doc history: the time he tried to con conman Frédéric Bourdin—subject of THE IMPOSTER — into a movie, got double-crossed, taunted by a Photoshopped postcard from the French Riviera… and learned years later the postcard was forged by his own friend in Paris. Luke's verdict: cut that out and make it its own episode.

Plus: Luke's mom's catering empire, his magician dad, the gateway drug of renting EDTV, and plenty of advice from a man with zero social media.

DISCUSSION LINKS:

LORD MONTAGU (2013) | DEALT (2017) | ACTION (2019) | THE NEW YORK TIMES PRESENTS (2020) | MILLI VANILLI (2023) | WINNEBAGO MAN (2009) | THE IMPOSTER (2012) | CHOP & STEELE (2022) | HIGH HOPES (2023) | CHEER (2020) | LAST CHANCE U (2016) | EDTV (1999) | FIELD OF DREAMS (1989) | THE KARATE KID (1984) | ANGELS IN THE OUTFIELD (1994) | JURASSIC PARK (1993) | WHAT MAKES SAMMY RUN (1941)

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 Two reluctant "documentary influencers" 01:00 Meet Luke — DEALT, the SXSW win & Richard Turner 01:40 LORD MONTAGU — the castle, the chairman, the first feature 03:00 ACTION, MILLI VANILLI & the NYT Presents Emmy 04:30 Texas A&M, no film school & the high-school broadcast suspensions 07:00 Doing anything for money → the uncle in the castle 08:00 Delegating your way to "all I do is direct" 09:20 On the bridge — the dancing guy with the speaker 10:30 Curiosity as the filmmaker's engine 12:00 Being authentic vs. taking the wrong job 14:30 Starting Keep On Running & selling a vision 15:30 Mom's catering empire, dad the author & magician 18:00 Every film is its own little startup 19:40 "It's the same muscle" — doc, series, scripted 22:00 Greg Whiteley's cold-call advice; sprint vs. marathon 26:00 Keeping gas in the tank; rich people making docs 29:00 Prayer, the spiritual side & character-driven stories 31:00 The hook is not the story — embracing weakness 34:00 Are your docs about you? MILLI VANILLI's real subject 36:00 The MILLI VANILLI origin & chasing Fab Morvan 40:00 Pitching & the brutal greenlight ratios 42:30 "No control" — the studio that passed, then begged 46:00 AI vs. the value of real human stories 48:00 Ben's THE IMPOSTER saga — buying Bourdin's life rights 51:30 The double-cross & the cease-and-desists 53:00 The postcard from the French Riviera 56:00 The one that got away 57:30 The twist — the postcard was forged by a friend 1:01:30 Stolen ideas & trusting no one in Hollywood 1:02:00 WHAT MAKES SAMMY RUN 1:03:30 Lightning round — EDTV, FIELD OF DREAMS, Spielberg 1:06:30 The thing he can't stop thinking about — will the show sell? 1:07:00 Where to find his work; no socials, just the Aggies

Barlow Jacobs says: Walk to the Next Block.. easy to say when you're sitting there, not-walking on DocWalks. It's day three of the AFS Doc Intensive, and we close out our run in the room for a sit-down with actor-turned-documentarian Barlow Jacobs—a guy we've been hearing about for 20 years ever since he burst out of Sundance with LOW AND BEHOLD in 2007. Barlow brings his doc-debut, THE VOYAGE OUT to Austin for Doc Days. Shot on 16mm, fully off-grid, on a nine-day elk hunt deep in the mountains—the gear hauled in on pack goats, lenses wrapped in towels inside Igloo coolers because the Pelican cases wouldn't fit, this is a unique production setup for a unique doc, and all that extra work really pays off—every frame looks like an oil painting.

Keith's on the hunt for answers, but Barlow's quick to point out that THE VOYAGE OUT isn't a hunting film. It's a reckoning with mortality, kicked off by a 2009 brain tumor and  later, a head-on collision with a dump truck, two life changing events that had Barlow questioning his own relationship to life & death. Barlow finds answers thanks to his film's three leads:  hunting guide Marc Warnke (Bruce Willis meets John Wayne with a philosophy degree), off-grid survivalist Callie Russell (you might've seen her on ALONE), and fellow seeker Mansal Denton. We dig into the technical insanity—film canisters kept warm in a teepee, a rain-soaked tent, a lab calling in a panic about celluloid that smelled like smoke—and then there's the executive producers who showed up with support, including Chris & Eleanor Columbus's Maiden Voyage Pictures, Ley Line, and Sons of Rigor Films. All indie filmmaking is a roll of the dice, but Barlow owes a special thanks to the pro gambler whose $2-million poker win came through just in time to float the shoot.

He may be a first-time doc director, but Barlow's a festival and indie vet, and he's flipping the script on distribution. And this is where we can all take notes: how he's self-releasing to 75 theaters next year, building an audience of hunters (and bespoke butcher-shops) and why he wishes he'd planned for all of this before shooting a single frame. Plus, Keith namedrops Jeff Nichols and Toby Halbrooks; Barlow shares a gateway-doc run through Adam Curtis, GREY GARDENS, GIMME SHELTER, and Frederick Wiseman—and a reminder that filmmaking is completed one step at a time. So, when it all starts to fall apart, just walk to the next block.

DISCUSSION LINKS:

THE VOYAGE OUT (2025) | LOW AND BEHOLD (2007) | THE LIGHTHOUSE (2019) | EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE ALL AT ONCE (2022) | THE BIG SHORT (2015) | McCABE & MRS. MILLER (1971) | HOME ALONE (1990) | HARRY POTTER AND THE SORCERER'S STONE (2001) | BUCKS HARBOR (2026) | GREY GARDENS (1975) | GIMME SHELTER (1970) | TITICUT FOLLIES (1967) | EX LIBRIS: THE NEW YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY (2017) | VERNON, FLORIDA (1981) | HYPERNORMALISATION (2016) | CAN'T GET YOU OUT OF MY HEAD (2021) | RUSSIA 1985–1999: TRAUMAZONE (2022) | ALONE (2015)

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 Day three of the AFS Doc Intensive 01:00 Barlow Jacobs: 20 years of near-misses and LOW AND BEHOLD at Sundance 02:00 THE VOYAGE OUT premieres tomorrow, shot on 16mm 02:30 The origin: a brain tumor, a dump truck, and mortality 05:00 Finding the hunt: Mansal Denton, Marc Warnke, and the pack goats 06:30 Callie Russell joins; everyone has a relationship with death 07:30 The goats, the fire, and the film's real subject 09:00 Six months of prep and the tech scout 11:00 Why shoot a documentary on film 11:30 Hauling gear on goats: Igloo coolers and Old Fast Glass 13:00 A linear hunt, formalistic language, planning every scenario 15:00 Working with the subjects without impeding the hunt 16:30 Gems pulled from the field audio 17:00 The only-way-to-do-it setup; feels like a million bucks 18:30 Film canisters, 12-degree nights, the rained-on tent 19:30 The Polish AC and "it's gonna have to take a bath" 20:30 Colorlab panics: everything smells like smoke 21:00 The executive producers: Columbus, Ley Line, Sons of Rigor 22:00 The $2-million poker win that funded the shoot 23:00 COVID delay and finding the film in the footage 24:00 Nature as a character; the sound-design second unit 25:00 Bringing fiction technique to nonfiction 26:30 The hunt as a built-in three-act structure 27:00 '70s docs, Altman, and McCABE & MRS. MILLER's grain 28:30 An instructional film: Marc as teacher 29:00 Did Barlow grow up hunting? Sustainability and connection 30:00 COVID, mortality, and the questions the film asks 31:00 Distribution: the indie landscape is constricting 32:00 The plan: 50–75 theaters, self-release, March 2027 34:00 Know your audience: 15 million hunters, butcher shops 36:00 Mailing lists, Callie and Marc's followings, Kinema 38:00 Why the real work begins after the premiere 40:00 Holding the audience for the next film 41:00 Marshaling the forces; a paradigm shift 42:00 Gateway docs: Adam Curtis, GREY GARDENS, GIMME SHELTER 43:00 Frederick Wiseman, TITICUT FOLLIES, VERNON FLORIDA, BUCKS HARBOR 44:30 Advice to emerging filmmakers: walk to the next block 47:00 A question worth dying for 47:30 Next week: Luke Korem and DEALT

YOUTUBE TAGS:

Barlow Jacobs, The Voyage Out, Doc Walks, documentary filmmaking, Austin Film Society, AFS Doc Intensive, 16mm film, elk hunting documentary, Marc Warnke, Callie Russell, Mansal Denton, Chris Columbus, Ley Line Entertainment, Adam Curtis, Frederick Wiseman, independent film distribution, shooting on film, Ben Steinbauer, Keith Maitland, mortality documentary

Alisa Payne cannot be stopped… certainly not by a little rain. When the downpour chases us indoors, we're lucky enough to post up in a cozy podcast studio at Austin Public—the public-access station where, Alex Jones got his start—and the home to the Austin Film Society Documentary Intensive, where the Oscar-nominated producer is serving as a mentor. You may know Alisa as the producer behind Geeta Gandbhir's body-cam-footage based, 'Stand Your Ground' Netflix doc THE PERFECT NEIGHBOR. But it's just one (important) stop of a dynamic career that took "20 years to be an overnight success."

Flashback to the late 90s when young Alisa, a recent biochem grad quit the lab to chase Queen Latifah, presenting 500 petitions that convinced one queen to hire another. From that point on it's been nonstop. Alisa made her name as a producer, showrunner, and a production company co-founder known for her focus on pushing the documentary form. Check out STAMPED FROM THE BEGINNING with Roger Ross Williams (that wasn't exactly THE MANDALORIAN); BETWEEN THE WORLD AND ME, an ambitious production at the terrifying height of COVID; and KATRINA: COME HELL AND HIGH WATER with Spike Lee, Samantha Knowles and future business partner, Sam Pollard.

Alisa makes the case for the producer as "chief emotions officer"—and her role as the parent of everyone in the credits. What does that mean? Shielding directors from notes, restoring the historical record when journalism can't be trusted, and making film more equitable in front of and behind the camera—those are just some of her responsibilities. 

This one's full of energetic wisdom and stories of production mishaps and their solutions, including: a tension-building bodega showdown over some purloined PPE fronted by one tough producer on a mission, because Alisa Payne will not be stopped!

Plus, we take a swing through the AFS Doc Intensive and meet the fellows and mentors that Alisa and Keith have been Intensive-ing with; And Alisa shares her passion for Brooklyn birding & identifying birdsong. Ben's not quite there yet, but Keith's happy to bird-up the podcast any chance he gets.

DISCUSSION LINKS:

TRUE STORIES (1986) | WHEN THE LEVEES BROKE (2006) | THE MANDALORIAN (2019) | BETWEEN THE WORLD AND ME (2020) | DEAR MR. BRODY (2022) | STAMPED FROM THE BEGINNING (2023) | KATRINA: COME HELL AND HIGH WATER (2025) | LISTERS: A GLIMPSE INTO EXTREME BIRDWATCHING (2025) | THE PERFECT NEIGHBOR (2025) | WHO MOVES AMERICA (2026) | UNTITLED FLACO DOCUMENTARY (TBD)

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 No jumping right in: banter and transactional meetings 02:00 Rainy day, no walk: Brooklyn birds, FLACO, and the Merlin app 03:30 Two dipshits talking about birds (the pilot that wasn't) 04:30 Meet Alisa Payne + a tour of Austin Public 05:30 Inside the AFS Doc Intensive: four projects, the mentors 07:00 Studio two and the Alex Jones lore 08:00 Shooting DEAR MR. BRODY eight blocks from home 09:00 STAMPED FROM THE BEGINNING and the Mandalorian dream 10:30 COVID, a snowstorm, and the ceiling that caved in 11:30 "It wasn't the Mandalorian" 12:00 THE PERFECT NEIGHBOR: Oscar nod, Sundance, Stand Your Ground 14:00 Pushing the form with body-cam footage 15:00 Biochemistry to film: chasing Queen Latifah 17:30 500 petitions and getting hired 19:00 Wear black on set / "keep wearing your colors" 21:00 First doc: Harlem gentrification and Mart 125 22:30 BETWEEN THE WORLD AND ME: showrunning at COVID's peak 26:00 Edit drives in the mailbox at 5 a.m. 27:00 Brooklyn Tech floor plans for HBO 31:00 Hazmat on a Harlem walk-up — and the PPE heist 33:30 "You remind me of my mother" 35:00 Producing as mothering: the chief emotions officer 37:00 The director–producer partnership 39:00 The notes she never passes along 40:00 Her fingerprints: the PERFECT NEIGHBOR drone shot 41:00 KATRINA: COME HELL AND HIGH WATER and holding the POV 43:00 A seat at the table: restoring the historical record 45:00 Lightning round: WHEN THE LEVEES BROKE as the gateway 47:00 Advice for emerging filmmakers: be yourself 48:00 Back in the room: Doc Days, Holly Herrick, and the cohort

We duck inside for the first time ever — into the Blanton Museum of Art, because it's pouring in Austin and Pete Muller had the brilliant idea to bring our show into a gallery. Pete is the National Geographic photographer behind BUCKS HARBOR, his five-years-in-the-making debut feature about lobster fishermen in Downeast Maine, premiering at Berlinale and playing Doc Days at the Austin Film Society.

We wander past Jacob Lawrence and Andrew Wyeth and Jerry Bywaters' OIL FIELD GIRLS while Pete walks us through the family that made him: his grandfather Leon Kelly (one of the pioneers of American surrealism), his art-conservator father (who once paid him to spit into a beaker so he could clean centuries-old paintings), and the paternity bombshell in his twenties that preceded his career embedded in conflict zones in Africa and the Middle East.

We dig into BUCKS HARBOR's sea critter metaphors, the editor Noel Paul who shaped hundreds of hours with a special structure, the Hiss Golden Messenger song that lands just as it's needed, and Pete's gentle insistence that "fly on the wall" is a lie — the camera is always doing something. Plus: the most admissible form of male feeling and why art belongs to everyone (no whispering required).

DISCUSSION LINKS:

BUCKS HARBOR (2026) | THE FEARLESS FREAKS (2005) | BOMBAY BEACH (2011)

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 Whispering into the Blanton — our first indoor episode 01:00 Jacob Lawrence and the Great Migration 03:00 Andrew Wyeth's SEA LEGS, painting the same people for decades 06:00 Pete's grandfather Leon Kelly — American surrealism 08:00 Crescent Fellowship, Paris 1925, André Breton 11:00 Why Pete won't call himself an artist 13:00 Mom the nighttime newspaper photographer in Lynn, MA 14:00 Dad the art conservator (and the beaker of spit) 17:00 Making art about practical, rough-and-tumble people 20:00 Thomas Hart Benton, folk + high-brow, painting on board 25:00 OIL FIELD GIRLS by Jerry Bywaters 28:00 How BUCKS HARBOR began — five years in Downeast Maine 29:00 The paternity reveal that sent Pete chasing masculinity 32:00 Cross-cultural masculinity from Sudan to New England 34:00 Anger as the only admissible male feeling 38:00 Dave's teeth, Mark's drag — lobsters molt, men molt 42:00 Mark the lobster-trap-maker as 50,000-follower TikTok star 45:00 Bill Viola, Alice Neel, Deborah Roberts 50:00 Editor Noel Paul, hundreds of hours, four-and-a-half years filming 53:00 Nathan Golden on cinematography, a shared visual language 55:00 What does "directing" a documentary even mean 58:00 Why "fly on the wall" is a lie 01:02 Festival run: Berlinale → True/False → Doc Days → Margaret Mead → Seattle 01:03 Score by Nikolai Hess + Hiss Golden Messenger end credits 01:06 Bombay Beach as inspiration 01:07 Advice: keep it cheap and close

Ben walks Glassell Park in L.A. with Bradley Jackson—screenwriter, novelist, and the documentary writer/producer behind FACING NOLAN, DEALT, MILLI VANILLI, and the Showtime sports-betting docuseries ACTION. Bradley leads Ben up his neighborhood  hill as he details exactly how he ended up in a "premium economy" English castle filming a bisexual British aristocrat for his very first doc—and why he never left doc-making behind. 

Bradley lays out his role as creative-producer in his partnerships with director (& future DocWalks guest) Luke Korem. We dig into doc storytelling and why structure is the only lever a doc filmmaker really controls. And he shares some b.t.s. on what it took to inspire Nolan Ryan's family to trust him with the Hall of Famer's legacy. Ben's in heaven with all this baseball talk—Bradley's got a take on Pete Rose, and we learn why a fastball that "rises" is the most American story ever told. 

A teamplayer at heart, Bradley admits he's a B-minus alone, but an A-plus with collaborators—a working theory he applies to writing partners, doc partners, and the kid-juggling-bills life of a working filmmaker post-pandemic. He explains the L.A. before/after split (zero in-person meetings in a year), how he wrote his INTRAMURAL screenplay at 6:45 a.m. before clocking in at a Texas edtech job, and why your first draft is always the scrambling of a madman. 

Plus: REQUIEM FOR A DREAM as a deeply unexpected gateway drug for a guy who writes comedies and baseball docs, Bill Hader as a too-intimidating dream collaborator, and Mike Schur as the better-looking, more successful 4.0 version of himself. This one's a walk-and-talk for filmmakers who juggle, rewrite, and trust that life is funnier than anything they could make up.

DISCUSSION LINKS:

REQUIEM FOR A DREAM (2000) | WINNEBAGO MAN (2010) | INTRAMURAL (2014) | DEALT (2017) | BARRY (2018) | ACTION (2019) | THE LAST DANCE (2020) | FACING NOLAN (2022) | MILLI VANILLI (2023) | MEGALOPOLIS (2024) | MEGADOC (2025)

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 Glassell Park walk and stepping into the future 00:35 The finer Steiner: Ben's sister and Compass Learning 01:30 WINNEBAGO MAN at the Alamo Drafthouse standby line 04:30 Screenwriter, novelist, or filmmaker? 06:30 First doc gig: a London castle and a British aristocrat 08:30 "Don't belong here" as a feature, not a bug 09:30 Randy Johnson, the Big Unit, and the Mariana Trench 10:10 Griffith Park, the observatory, and the ridge 12:00 Story structure is the doc filmmaker's only lever 14:30 From creative producer to director 15:30 Central characters and intoxicating worlds 18:30 DEALT, the blind magician, and the knife-throwing dog 21:30 FACING NOLAN: who's my Texas Michael Jordan? 29:30 The plumber-pitcher pipeline to Nolan's family 33:00 13 months from first day of shooting to picture-lock 37:00 Pete Rose, the 4,000th hit, and the pre-interview cram 38:30 The fastball that "rises" and a 27-season anomaly 40:30 Failure as the working filmmaker's baseline 41:30 Why Bradley is B-minus alone, A-plus with partners 43:00 INTRAMURAL, Kate McKinnon, and Austin to LA 43:30 Pandemic split and the death of the in-person LA meeting 46:30 Lightning round: REQUIEM FOR A DREAM as a gateway drug 48:00 Advice: write every day, draft 14 is the real draft 50:30 The thing he can't stop thinking about: a new baby 51:30 MEGALOPOLIS, MEGADOC, and Coppola yarns 52:30 Dream collaborator: Duplass Brothers, Bill Hader, Mike Schur 54:30 Where to watch FACING NOLAN and MILLI VANILLI

Let's get into the tragic side of comedy with documentarian, comedian, and Academy Award–nominated screenwriter Jena Friedman. The BORAT SUBSEQUENT MOVIEFILM co-writer is in town for the Moontower Comedy Festival to perform her hour-long stand-up about her mother's death. Two minutes in and we're deep into the grief, as the former DAILY SHOW correspondent talks about editing her own SundanceTV true-crime show, while pregnant, and dealing with her mother's illness and death.

Jena and Keith have something in common—Keith lost his father 25 years ago—and she asks probing questions about his relationship with his dad, before and after his passing. She describes how her mom became her biggest career champion right when work was busiest, why grief comedy is "exposure therapy," and how a half-page Austin Chronicle headline once dubbed her THE MUSE OF MEDIOCRITY. (Her counter: "Mediocrity is my muse.") We dig into INDEFENSIBLE, her two-season SundanceTV true-crime show that nobody really wanted made, and Adult Swim's SOFT FOCUS WITH JENA FRIEDMAN, where she disarmed John McAfee in his own living room.

Jena makes the case for bad art in the AI era: if your work isn't optimizable enough for the robots to scrape, then you're free. We talk THE REHEARSAL, the crepe myrtle as paint-by-numbers tree, why DocWalks badly needs a drone sponsorship, and how "improv was my rosebud". We squeeze a whole lot into this rambling, lakeside chat then grab a cortado at Revolution Coffee before Jena heads to the Paramount Theatre to perform. Then it's back to work on her EPSTEIN FILES BOOK CLUB podcast and heading home to her son.

Plus: Letterman in 2011, Keith wielding two cams, how criticism can feel like a hug from mom, our shared affection for Kahane Corn Cooperman, and the power of pennies that show up exactly when you need them.

DISCUSSION LINKS:

NOT FUNNY (2023) | SOFT FOCUS WITH JENA FRIEDMAN (2018) | INDEFENSIBLE (2021) | BORAT SUBSEQUENT MOVIEFILM (2020) | THE REHEARSAL (2022) | WEEKEND AT BERNIE'S (1989) | EPSTEIN FILES BOOK CLUB (2026) | THE JOKES AI WON'T TELL - TED TALK (2025)

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 Intro and Moontower setup 01:00 Crossing at Fifth & Trinity — who is Jena Friedman? 03:00 NOT FUNNY: an hour about losing her mom 06:00 SOFT FOCUS, John McAfee, allegedly dead 08:00 The 180-degree rule (we don't care) 10:00 Lady Bird Lake, rowing pheromones 12:00 Improv as the gateway drug 13:00 EPSTEIN FILES BOOK CLUB podcast 14:00 The crepe myrtle as paint-by-numbers 17:00 Six weeks, third trimester, the worst show 21:00 Keith's dad, 25 years gone 23:00 Pennies on the ground 26:00 Coffee break, lightning round 27:00 The BORAT NDA + Pregnancy Crisis Center 30:00 Bad art is the future 33:00 Letterman 2011 was already dead inside 34:00 INDEFENSIBLE on Sundance TV 36:00 The Daily Show as film school 38:00 Tonight at the Paramount, comments as hugs

We walk South by Southwest with director Bryan Storkel—HOLY ROLLERS, THE LEGEND OF COCAINE ISLAND, THE PEZ OUTLAW, ALABAMA SNAKE—in town to premiere I GOT BOMBED AT HARVEY'S, his new feature about the man who built a thousand-pound bomb and walked it into a Lake Tahoe casino in 1980. Keith's on vacation, so it's just Ben and Bryan, two directors aiming cameras at each other ("this is like a Beastie Boys video"). Ben's catcher finger is wrecked from yesterday's Sandlot game. Bryan's been on a pickleball tear in LA.

We dig into how Bryan keeps making so many films—a Ken Griffey Jr. doc that fell apart the night before his first interview with Sir Mix-A-Lot, the AMC anthology TRUE CRIME STORY: SMUGSHOT (umbrella: "crimes of entitlement"), and a Hulk Hogan series now released to acclaim for Netflix. We trace his exodus from Oral Roberts University through HOLY ROLLERS (card-counting Christian pastors), FIGHT CHURCH (cage-fighting pastors), and ALABAMA SNAKE (the Pentecostal who tried to kill his wife with a rattlesnake)—each film quietly walking him further out of the faith he grew up in.

The reenactment talk is the heart of it. Bryan walks us through the COCAINE ISLAND / PEZ OUTLAW method—cast the actual subject in their own reenactments, build a scripted-feeling rough cut from a documentary edit, then shoot the recreations like a narrative. The secret: be terrified the whole time it'll be cheesy. "That terror is the thing that makes it good." HARVEY'S, he tells us, snuck up on him as a father-son story underneath the heist.

Plus: an annual dog-on-a-table photoshoot ambushes the walk, the empathy-machine theory of documentary, and why every prolific filmmaker should learn to edit first.

DISCUSSION LINKS:

AMERICAN MOVIE (1999) | OKIE NOODLING (2001) | HOME MOVIE (2001) | SUMMERCAMP! (2006) | WINNEBAGO MAN (2009) | HOLY ROLLERS (2011) | LITTLE HOPE WAS ARSON (2013) | FIGHT CHURCH (2014) | THE BATTERED BASTARDS OF BASEBALL (2014) | NOBODY SPEAK: TRIALS OF THE FREE PRESS (2017) | CASTING JONBENET (2017) | THE LEGEND OF COCAINE ISLAND (2018) | ALABAMA SNAKE (2020) | THE PEZ OUTLAW (2022) | THE SAINT OF SECOND CHANCES (2023) | DICKWEED (2024) | I GOT BOMBED AT HARVEY'S (2026)

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 Cold open — two directors, one Sandlot finger 01:00 The Ken Griffey Jr. doc that fell through 02:00 THE BATTERED BASTARDS OF BASEBALL & THE SAINT OF SECOND CHANCES 04:00 Solo walk intro — Keith's on vacation 04:30 Premiering I GOT BOMBED AT HARVEY'S at SXSW 06:00 Theo Love, Amy Bandlien Storkel, and the long road to a feature 09:00 Why Bryan is so prolific — SMUGSHOT, Hulk Hogan, FLORIDA MAN 11:00 Sidestilt — the Norwegian word for juxtapose 13:30 Born in Seattle, Oral Roberts in Tulsa 14:30 First docs: HOLY ROLLERS, FIGHT CHURCH, LITTLE HOPE WAS ARSON 17:00 ALABAMA SNAKE and the exit from Christianity 19:00 Documentary as empathy machine 20:30 Hulk Hogan — separating Terry from the performer 22:00 The unreleased Kid Rock doc 26:30 Zilker Park, Barton Springs, the Austin pitch 28:00 The HARVEY'S premiere and the "kitschy" review 29:00 Reenactments — terror as creative engine 31:00 Casting the real subjects (Steve Glew, Cocaine Island) 33:30 An annual dog-on-a-table photoshoot 36:00 Steve Glew's beard test, hotel hallway, duffel of Pez 37:30 The CASTING JONBENET trick on a Smugshot episode 40:00 HARVEY'S as a father-son story 42:00 Lightning round — gateway docs at SXSW 44:00 Best advice: learn to edit 45:30 Pickleball, two teenage daughters

We mark 50 walks with business partner, co-conspirator, and professor of things cinematic—Berndt Mader, co-founder of The Bear and Ben's filmmaking better-half of nineteen years. Lady Bird Lake, placid gray spring weather, and Berndt tracing his arc from sandbag-slinging grip on David Gordon Green's GEORGE WASHINGTON to Austin's hybrid-film provocateur.

The main event: the $2M Kid Rock documentary that was, until it wasn't. Berndt pulled Ben past "no way" and into Nashville, where Danny McBride's blessing got them into Bob Ritchie's house weeks before COVID locked everything down. Katie Steinbauer sewed a mask, Berndt drove up anyway, and they captured an apology scene where an aging rockstar says he's going to "try to sneak into heaven." Then June 2022 happened—a homophobic slur went viral, Roughhouse evacuated, Live Nation grabbed the hard drives, and MY NAME IS KID became a film that will never see daylight.

We get into the art of directing real people through fake scenarios with BOOGER RED, Berndt's CLOSE-UP-inspired hybrid adaptation of Mike Hall's Texas Monthly exposé of the Mineola case, and how that story got a second life as the HBO docuseries HOW TO CREATE A SEX SCANDAL. Plus Werner Herzog impressions, the Pete Best of The Bear, a Richard Linklater dream collaboration, and the thesis statement for episode 50: "We follow the heartbreak."

DISCUSSION LINKS:

GEORGE WASHINGTON (2000) | BOOGER RED (2015) | HOW TO CREATE A SEX SCANDAL (2023) | CHOP & STEELE (2022) | CLOSE-UP (1990) | THE THIN BLUE LINE (1988) | COCKSUCKER BLUES (1972) | SUPERSTAR: THE KAREN CARPENTER STORY (1987) | A POEM IS A NAKED PERSON (1974) | WERNER HERZOG EATS HIS SHOE (1988) | APOCALYPSE NOW (1979) | 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY (1968) | MAKING A MURDERER (2015) | EASTBOUND & DOWN (2009) | THE RIGHTEOUS GEMSTONES (2019)

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 50 episodes deep with Berndt Mader 02:00 Naming The Bear (before the TV show) 05:00 19 years of the production company 06:00 Richardson origins and the George Washington swing grip 10:00 UT Austin RTF and the accidental production company 15:00 The movie about the Kid Rock doc 17:00 $2M Live Nation budget, Roughhouse, Danny McBride 20:00 First impressions of Bob Ritchie 24:00 Filming during COVID with Katie's handmade mask 30:00 Co-directing divisions and the General Lee 34:00 Super Bowl scene and the Biden victory apology 39:00 Sundance dreams and the homophobic slur 43:00 Live Nation takes the hard drives 47:00 Booger Red and Kiarostami's Close-Up 52:00 The HBO docuseries How to Create a Sex Scandal 58:00 Lightning round: Thin Blue Line, Apocalypse Now, 2001 61:00 Werner Herzog impression and initiative makes films 63:00 Richard Linklater dream collab and signing off

Kansas City here we come! Well, just Ben this time, revisiting old haunts along the Tomahawk Creek trail with Sharon Liese—Emmy-winning director of THE FLAGMAKERS and TRANSHOOD. Sharon proves you don't need an LA zip code to premiere at Sundance—her new feature SEIZED—a nuanced, complicated portrait of what happened when police raided a small-town Kansas newspaper—was a must-see at Park City this January. A film about justice and freedom of expression is a pressing tale today and Sharon walks us through the messy reality of telling a story where nobody's quite the hero you expect. We dig into the two-and-a-half year journey of making the film, the year it took to get suspicious small-towners to open up, and the 98-year-old newspaper co-owner whose defiant attitude captured on police body cam footage will absolutely wreck you.

The serendipity is real: mid-walk, we stumble onto gnome houses on the trail—a callback to Sharon's gorgeous short THE GNOMIST, which was filmed on this very path. We trace her origin story from a Kansas marketing gig to following 12 girls through high school for HIGH SCHOOL CONFIDENTIAL, getting an agent by name-dropping an RJ Cutler meeting, and the fateful Facebook message that led to Ben & Sharon working together on PINK COLLAR CRIMES. Sharon opens up about TRANSHOOD, following four trans kids for five years on HBO, and the devastating new Kansas legislation that just dropped overnight.

The conversation turns to the state of an industry where good storytelling is getting squeezed from every direction and Ben gets real about his eight-year Onion documentary saga. But the vibe stays warm—Sharon's grandkids just moved to KC, the crowded table she always dreamed of is full, and MAD HOT BALLROOM is confirmed as a gateway drug film that changed Sharon's life. Plus: the parents who thought they'd get a VHS tape and ended up on national TV.

DISCUSSION LINKS:

SEIZED (2026) | THE GNOMIST (2015) | TRANSHOOD (2020) | THE FLAGMAKERS (2022) | HIGH SCHOOL CONFIDENTIAL (2008) | PINK COLLAR CRIMES (2018) | MAD HOT BALLROOM (2005) | WINNEBAGO MAN (2009) | COME SEE ME IN THE GOOD LIGHT (2025)

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 Introduction and Kansas City arrival 01:00 Meeting Sharon Liese and SEIZED at Sundance 03:00 The Marion, Kansas newspaper raid 05:00 The other side of the story 08:00 Gaining trust in a small town 10:00 Paul and the family filmmaking team 11:00 Walking Tomahawk Creek in Leawood 12:00 Making films where you live 15:00 Driving to Marion the day Joanne died 17:00 Navigating high-profile partnerships 18:00 How we met on PINK COLLAR CRIMES 20:00 Stumbling onto gnome houses and THE GNOMIST 22:00 TRANSHOOD and following four kids for five years 24:00 Kansas trans legislation 25:00 Sharon's origin story and HIGH SCHOOL CONFIDENTIAL 28:00 Getting an agent and the RJ Cutler name-drop 29:00 Ben's Onion documentary white whale 34:00 Grandkids, the crowded table, and family 36:00 THE FLAGMAKERS and the road to an Oscar shortlist 40:00 Documentary curiosity and the trust fall 41:00 The state of the industry 44:00 Lightning round and MAD HOT BALLROOM 47:00 What Sharon can't stop thinking about 49:00 Where to find Sharon and upcoming festivals

Let's talk about MANHOOD—specifically, Daniel Lombroso's startling new doc about the growing world (haha) of penis girth enhancement. You heard that right. This is the penis injection movie that SXSW audiences (& DocWalks guests) won't stop talking about. At 33 years old, the Brooklyn-based Lombroso considers himself to be "criminally open minded" (his words, then immediately walked back), and the kind of filmmaker who waits seven months in a D.C. parking lot to get one lunch meeting. He's done it before. With WHITE NOISE, his 2020 alt-right portrait, he embedded with Lauren Southern, Mike Cernovich, and Richard Spencer for years, as a Jewish grandson of two Holocaust survivors. With NINA & IRENA, his New Yorker short, he hovered around Errol Morris until Errol called him back: "Daniel, your grandmother's a fucking incredible character."

We dig into MANHOOD start to finish: the Dallas entrepreneur trying to make girth injections as common as Botox, the OnlyFans model who got botched and bared everything anyway, and the standup-dad of five whose reckless choices break our hearts. Daniel maps the access game—turns out women and queer execs got the pitch instantly, while straight guys at the top kept killing the deals—his journalism roots at The Atlantic and The New Yorker, the Sheila Nevins stamp of approval at 87, and how Penny Lane and World of Wonder rallied around him when he was unemployed, depressed, and flying Spirit Airlines back to Dallas to film alone.

He's funny about his Republican father calling MANHOOD "a beautiful commentary on modern America." But he's serious about the male loneliness epidemic, the manosphere, and the smartphone-induced inadequacy that pushes men to spend their savings on the one thing they don't need more of. 

Plus: how to bother Errol Morris in a parking lot, the lightning-round answer that made us laugh—"give yourself reps"—and a brief detour through 2 Girls 1 Cup we did not see coming.

MANHOOD (2026) | WHITE NOISE (2020) | NINA & IRENA (2023) | HAIL SATAN? (2019) | LISTENING TO KENNY G (2021) | CONFESSIONS OF A GOOD SAMARITAN (2023) | THE FOG OF WAR (2003) | GATES OF HEAVEN (1978) | RAISING ARIZONA (1987) | WINNEBAGO MAN (2009)

00:00 Two girls, one cup, and a high five 02:31 Meet Daniel and MANHOOD 03:34 Inside the girth enhancement boom 06:36 Daniel's Republican dad weighs in 10:12 Why straight execs kept killing the deal 11:19 33 and prolific 12:00 WHITE NOISE and the alt-right embed 13:02 Self-taught from age 14 14:10 Bothering Errol Morris in a parking lot 17:12 Meeting Penny Lane at Big Sky 20:19 From journalism to documentary in Istanbul 24:28 The access question 25:44 "Criminally open minded" 26:21 Lauren Southern's seven-month chase 30:23 Cernovich, Spencer, and the contradictions 32:33 The Kid Rock movie that fell apart 34:37 Meeting Bill, David, and Ruben 38:50 The throuple twist 40:30 David's reconstructive journey 42:11 World of Wonder breaks David open 44:13 The smartphone inadequacy machine 47:51 Ruben and the male loneliness epidemic 52:53 Lightning round 53:38 How Sheila Nevins came aboard 57:39 Give yourself reps 58:53 What keeps Daniel up at night 01:01:34 Where to find MANHOOD 01:02:27 The state of documentary 01:04:10 Sharon Liese is up next

This is one packed parking lot full of filmmakers! Why? Because it's SXSW—and time once again for Austin Film Society's annual party. And we're throwing you right into the thick of it, to connect with both visiting and local doc-makers making the scene, We kick it all off with the cutest damn Willie Nelson cameo you can imagine… no not the nonagenarian multi-hyphenate hero, but a baby goat named for the GOAT. Follow that with a controversial AI take from our old pal Bart Weiss, and this hometown shindig is off to a typically "weird" Austin start. 

Inside the party, we link up with Bianca Giaever and Ora de Kornfeld, the directors behind STALIN BOYS—a comedy doc about middle school boys in Marathon, TX who are deeply, unapologetically obsessed with Joseph Stalin. Their short took two awards at the fest and is heating up the circuit on its way to NY Times Op-Docs. We connect with Dallas drone-ster Monika Watkins, an alum of the AFS Doc Intensive. She has a lot to say about overcoming grief through vulnerability and making art—with updates on her animated short DABNEY, and intro'ing a new project: LOVE MO'. We finally meet Bradley Jackson, whose narrative feature STAGES is premiering here with Austin musician David Ramirez in the lead. Then our intrepid co-producer Dayton Thompson makes his on-camera debut and bumps into Bev Chukwu, who drops the line of the night—"Life is one big circle." 

Quick shots of Sarah-Ann Mockbee, Amy Bench, Chelsea Hernandez, and a dog named Buster—plus conversations with Jonathan Green, Riley Engemoen, and Samuel Diaz Fernandez round out the episode. And we close out with Sarah Kuck who offers insight into the Austin Doc Makers Club and kicking off a new chapter with the Video Consortium (so much to discuss here and a signal that we need to book Sarah for her own episode). Goats, drones, dictators, and community. SXSW at AFS… one big circle it is.

STALIN BOYS (2026) | THE GRANDFATHER PUZZLE (2026) | SOCIAL ANIMALS (2018) | DICK WEED (2024) | I GOT BOMBED AT HARVEY'S (2026) | THE LEGEND OF COCAINE ISLAND (2018) | THE PEZ OUTLAW (2022) | STAGES (2026) | DABNEY | A FRAGILE VESSEL (2026) | FORCE FIELD OF LOVE (2026) | THELMA SAVE MY LIFE | TOWER (2016)

00:00 Introduction - It's South by Southwest time 01:00 The lady with the baby goat named Willie Nelson 02:30 Bart Weiss on AI film festivals and writing a book about the festival circuit 06:00 Entering the AFS parking lot party 08:00 Meeting Bianca and Ora, directors of STALIN BOYS 11:00 Marathon, Texas: the smallest school you've never seen 14:00 Comedy docs and middle school obsessions with dictators 19:00 Ora's other film THE GRANDFATHER PUZZLE 21:00 Jonathan Green on SOCIAL ANIMALS, DICK WEED, and Bryan Storkel 26:00 Bryan Storkel's Hulk Hogan Netflix doc 28:00 Monika Watkins on drones, DABNEY, and AI as a creative tool 34:00 Keith and Ben on the AI delineation: tools vs. generative 35:00 Monika on losing her mom and the Love Mo series 38:00 Drone photo session with the crew 42:00 Bradley Jackson - STAGES premieres at SXSW with David Ramirez 46:00 Bradley on why South by Southwest hits different 48:00 Bradley is moving back to Austin 49:00 Samuel on A FRAGILE VESSEL - heat, love, and sci-fi horror 51:00 Party B-roll, Chelsea, and Buster the dog 53:00 Riley on FORCE FIELD OF LOVE - South Austin's dancing legends 55:00 Dayton's on-camera debut 57:00 Bev Chukwu on THELMA SAVE MY LIFE - "Life is one big circle" 59:00 Sarah Kuck on Austin Doc Makers Club and Video Consortium 01:04:00 Closing thoughts and Dayton appreciation 01:07:00 Rambler sponsor read and next episode tease

This one is scientific! We're thrilled to take a walk on Austin's wildside with one of the hardest working Executive Producers in the doc game today. Meet Jess Harrop, executive director of Sandbox Films—the science-meets-cinema studio behind FATHOM, FIRE OF LOVE, ANDRÉ IS AN IDIOT, and a jaw-dropping slate of genre-bending docs. Jess takes a break from her SXSW responsibilities to share her journey from a biology degree and a theater background (and zero film school) to a gig associate producing NOVA and eventually launching and running one of the most exciting studios in documentary. We dig into Sandbox's origin story as a subsidiary of the Simons Foundation, the philosophy of making science films that feel like romances and thrillers and comedies, and even what it's like to give notes to Werner Herzog. 

When our walk strays from the relative safety of the hike & bike trail, into a decidedly more "stabby" unexplored corner of downtown, Ben gets a little jumpy but Jess goes with the flow, an unflappable NY'er in action. We have lots of questions about her experience working with so many great directors, including the aforementioned Herzog… and she shares the Bavarian rogue's all-time great filmmaking note—"You've got to get the cowboys on the horses"—in other words: just get the story going. Jess details how Sara Dosa's FIRE OF LOVE was born from an archival gold mine and a COVID pivot. And we dig into this year's ANDRÉ IS AN IDIOT (in theaters now) and the Sundance 2026 award-winner, THE LAKE. Plus insight into: the world of mushrooms via DAUGHTERS OF THE FOREST; Jess's newest hobby (bejeweling costumes); her dream of talking to animals (not unlike the plot of Sandbox's FATHOM); and a brief mention of time spent working with Bill Nye the Science Guy. 

Discussion Links:

ENCOUNTERS AT THE END OF THE WORLD (2007) | HUMAN NATURE (2020) | FIREBALL: VISITORS FROM DARKER WORLDS (2020) | FATHOM (2021) | ALL LIGHT, EVERYWHERE (2021) | FIRE OF LOVE (2022) | ANDRÉ IS AN IDIOT (2025) | THE LAKE (2026) | DAUGHTERS OF THE FOREST (2026) | TIME AND WATER (2026) | PHENOMENA (2026)

Timestamps:

00:00 Poolside escape and trail introductions 01:30 Meet Jess Harrop and the Sandbox Films slate 03:00 Dan Deacon, Drinking Out of Cups, and the Sandbox scoring pipeline 05:30 From biology degree to science TV producer 07:30 Nova, Discovery Channel, and Bill Nye Saves the World 08:30 Learning filmmaking on the job—and the science-to-film pipeline 10:00 Camp Sandbox: where scientists and filmmakers become the same people 11:30 Walking like New Yorkers and the South by Southwest bait-and-switch 15:00 From show-running Netflix to building a studio at the Simons Foundation 17:30 Comedy docs and the Trojan Horse for science communication 19:30 ANDRÉ IS AN IDIOT: the film everyone needs to see immediately 21:00 Genre docs as a philosophy—comedy, romance, eco-horror 22:00 Werner Herzog on the advisory board and giving notes to a legend 25:00 Sandbox origins: FATHOM, ALL LIGHT EVERYWHERE, and early development 29:00 The stabby Amtrak detour and "get the cowboys on the horses" 33:00 THE LAKE: Great Salt Lake collapse, praying for rain, and the governor at Sundance 40:00 Tardigrades, the library rooftop, and things Keith loves 41:30 DAUGHTERS OF THE FOREST: indigenous mycologists and sci-fi docs 42:30 Cyber trucks, Waymos, and the autonomous future arrives in Austin 46:00 Time and Water: Sara Dosa's glacier elegy and the FIRE OF LOVE reunion 48:00 How FIRE OF LOVE was born from COVID, an archive, and one bold vision 52:30 The Wes Anderson–Jacques Cousteau connection 53:00 Lightning round: gateway drug doc, dream collaborators, and what's on Jess's mind 56:00 Advice for emerging filmmakers: find what makes you unique 58:00 PHENOMENA: the IMAX-ready, no-VFX science spectacle 1:00:00 Costume design side hustles and talking to animals 1:02:00 Dog Walks: the spinoff nobody asked for 1:04:00 Outro and Rambler Sparkling Water

Holly Herrick is all about the film-life—as the Head of Film for Austin Film Society and Doc Days festival founder / programmer, she's at the center of Austin's film community, but this SXSW finds Holly wearing a new hat: first-time documentary producer. 

FIRST THEY CAME FOR MY COLLEGE, directed by Patrick Bresnan, chronicles the 2023 "hostile takeover"—their words—of New College of Florida by Ron DeSantis and his Christo-fascist cronies. Holly's a New College alum. She saw the press getting the story wrong and did what any reasonable person in her position would do: panicked. But a call to Margaret Brown gave her some confidence, and together with fellow alum Harry Hanbury, decided to make a movie.

No big deal… hahaha… just squeeze-in a first feature with a full-time job running a non-profit and two-screen cinema, overseeing awards shows and grants, & two invite-only artists' labs (scripted & doc), all while raising two small kids. Holly Herrick is living proof: with enough caffeine, anything's possible….

We love this walk, because we never get enough time with Holly (busy busy lady), but today she's all ours as we stroll through the flowering native plants of Mueller Lake Park taking inspiration from this powerhouse of gettin' shit done—psychosis, be damned. 

Plus: Dave Hickey on art and laziness, Jean Luc Godard on women, and Holly on: knowing your why.

FIRST THEY CAME FOR MY COLLEGE (2026) | A WOMAN IS A WOMAN (1961) | BREATHLESS (1960) | WINNEBAGO MAN (2009) | TOWER (2016) | JOIN OR DIE (2023)

00:00 Caffeine-induced psychosis as a lifestyle philosophy 00:49 Introducing Holly Herrick and Austin Film Society 03:30 AFS origin story—Linklater, the old airport, and Mueller 08:30 AFS Cinema as Austin's repertory art house 11:30 Doc Lab and Doc Days—what they are and how they work 17:30 "Community"—the most used word on Doc Walks 21:30 Austin Public—public access TV as democratic infrastructure 26:00 Programming as art, not science—Holly's philosophy for Doc Days 33:00 How Holly got into film: New College, Sarasota, and the accidental programmer 38:30 Dave Hickey, Air Guitar, and why art can't afford to be lazy 41:00 JOIN OR DIE, Bowling Alone, and democracy through community 45:00 FIRST THEY CAME FROM MY COLLEGE—origin of the project 49:00 The hostile takeover of New College of Florida 55:00 Patrick Preston as director and the Food Forest gardening club 1:01:00 Hopes for the film—what Holly wants audiences to understand 1:04:00 Festival run: True/False, SXSW, and beyond 1:08:00 Lightning round—Godard, knowing your why, and Wendell Berry

If you ever wanted to get into the head of a premier festival programmer, this is your chance! Meet SXSW VP of Film & TV, Claudette Godfrey, a self-described Chaos Coordinator and all-around boss. Keith's flyin' solo while Ben's off shooting commercials (allegedly) and you won't want to miss the chance to walk & doc with Claudette today, on the 40th anniversary SXSW kickoff. An ADHD/OCD whirlwind of ideas and observations, Claudette is a trip—and she's ready to talk all things SXSW and highlight this year's best of the fest…

But first we'll check-in on Claudette's origin story: native Austinite, UT film student, SX intern in the Matt Dentler days, shorts programmer-extraordinaire under Janet Pierson, and now ascendant head of all things film & television at Austin's far-reaching culture fest. She's got intel to share—everything that's different now that the fest is 7 days instead of 10. She breaks down what actually gets a short film into a festival (pro tip: make an animated or a doc short—there's just a 0.4% acceptance rate for narrative), why docs are getting "more samey by the day," and why the overnight success myth is a comfortable lie filmmakers have been telling themselves since the early days of Quentin Tarantino. All that in preparation for the main event as Claudette rapid-fires through the 2026 doc slate with obvious glee: Sea Monkeys, classified Bigfoot footage, penis injections, NDA whistleblowers, the world's first extinct glacier, and a film about Kentucky weed farmers. Keith confesses he's in development on seven projects and none of them are close to done, so it'll be a few years before he's submitting to the fest. But Claudette supports his idea of making a short…

Plus: thoughts on Ben's role as Claudette's film prof; shout out to Trey Edward Schults' KRISHA and Jeremy Workman's SECRET MALL APARTMENT; Johnny Cash & Beck & Janis Joplin all at Keith's first SX (class of '94); and cameos from future DocWalks guest Sarah Kuck and Pickles the dog!

This episode was sponsored by our good friends at Rambler Sparkling Water.  A tasty limestone mineral blend with the perfect level of tight, crispy bubbles.  Made in America and proudly supporting American Rivers.  Ramble on.

PULP FICTION (1994) | TOMMY BOY (1995) | E.T. THE EXTRA-TERRESTRIAL (1982) | KRISHA (2015) | JANIS JOPLIN SLEPT HERE (1994) | EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE ALL AT ONCE (2022) | NAVALNY (2022) | DEAR MR. BRODY (2022) | SECRET MALL APARTMENT (2024) | MY BROTHER'S KILLER (2026) | AMAZING LIVE SEA MONKEYS (2026) | CAPTURING BIGFOOT (2026) | DRIFT (2026) | MANHOOD (2026) | MY NDA (2026) | SUMMER OF '94 (2026) | TIME AND WATER (2026) | SUMMER 2000 (2026) | THE LIFE WE LEAVE (2026) | THE DADS (2026) | THE LAST CRITIC (2026) | CORNBREAD MAFIA (2026)

00:00 Introduction and circle of confusion 00:49 Meet Claudette Godfrey, VP of Film and TV at SXSW 02:42 Ben was Claudette's TA in college 04:13 Why Claudette went producing track instead of directing 06:00 Pulp Fiction, Tarantino, and the dream of being discovered 08:00 Festival producer vs. film producer 09:30 SXSW 40th anniversary and what's different this year 12:00 Seven days instead of ten, new badge structure 13:30 Claudette's first SXSW memory: Janice Joplin and Emo's, 1994 16:30 How SXSW has grown since the shed-in-a-backyard days 19:30 Keith's mushroom Easter egg and the intern connection 22:00 Shorts programming: what actually gets in 28:00 Animated shorts, acceptance rates, and premiere strategy 30:00 What makes a great short film 33:00 Watch the films at the festivals you want to attend 35:00 Trey Edward Shults and the moment Claudette was bowled over 37:00 Features: docs are getting more samey 40:00 The myth of the overnight success (the Daniels) 43:00 The 2026 SXSW doc slate begins 44:00 SECRET MALL APARTMENT and patience in documentary filmmaking 45:00 MY BROTHER'S KILLER, AMAZING LIVE SEA MONKEYS, CAPTURING BIGFOOT 47:00 CORNBREAD MAFIA, DRIFT, MANHOOD, MY NDA 48:00 SUMMER OF '94 and the AI DOC 50:00 TIME AND WATER, Sarah Dosa, and the survival of humanity 53:00 SUMMER 2000, THE LIFE WE LEAVE, THE DADS, THE LAST CRITIC 55:00 50% first-time filmmakers, the submission process myths 57:00 Film festival fit: not every great film belongs at every fest 58:00 Lightning round: gateway drug films 59:00 Francis, Pickles, and Keith's seven projects in development 01:02:00 Outro and teaser for Holly Herrick episode

We're takin' it to the streets, sure—but this week we're also takin' it to the list: the Nonfiction Hotlist, with producer Anna Rau. Anna's got the scoop on this new endeavor to connect nonfic producers with money and distribution, and she's here to share just what the Nonfiction Hotlist is and where it's going. It started when former ESPN producer Adam Neuhaus made a viral LinkedIn post that inspired a community initiative championing unreleased nonfiction storytelling. And it's growing quickly. Anna explains their brand new Yahoo partnership that's creating a real home for short films that deserve more than a life relegated to the purgatory of the filmmaker's hard drive.

Anna has a lot going on right now! She's been producing commercials and doc-series for years, with her husband Corbett and their company The Range, but she realized there was a language on the finance side of this industry that she still needed to learn. So she enrolled in an MBA program to decode the business, and to find some creative ways to grow… and that growth has yielded big ideas in the form of westward expansion. Anna reveals that she is turning a grad-school assignment into an active business plan by putting an offer in on the legendary Palace Theater in Marfa, TX—the single-screen showroom where GIANT premiered, in the town where Anna and Corbett got married, and where they've got big plans to build a cinema-slash-production-hub from the ground up. Producer, MBA grad, entrepreneur, and Media Mogul—now that's a hot list. 

Plus: a ufo-shaped gazebo on the shores of Lady Bird Lake; we eye a colorful ceramic cow; talk abundance over scarcity; and walk away feeling like the future of nonfiction is in very good hands.

***Also deadline for the Yahoo initiative is this Friday if folks want to get something in under the wire, there's an info Q+A happening tomorrow on instagram live over @nonfictionhotlist 

Discussion Links: GIANT (1956) | JAWS (1975) | CALIFORNIA'S GOLD (1991–2012) | ARTBOUND (2012–Present) | ALL WE NEED IS ANOTHER CHANCE (2017) | TENDING NATURE (2018–2021) | EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE ALL AT ONCE (2022) | THE YOGURT SHOP MURDERS (2025) | GOOD MOMENT (in post-production)

00:00 Welcome to Doc Walks: Banter About Banter 02:42 Introducing Anna Rau: Old Friends, New Walks 03:00 The Marfa Wedding Suit Disaster 05:00 Anna's Career: The Range, PBS, and Beyond 06:30 Enter the Nonfiction Hotlist 08:30 What Is the Hotlist? Origin Story and Mission 10:00 The Blacklist Comparison: Nonfiction's Turn 12:00 Human-Centered Curation and Painting the Back of the Fence 15:00 Anna's MBA Journey: Understanding the Money Side 17:48 The Business of Docs: Tangibles, Intangibles, and Impact 20:30 The Yahoo Shorts Partnership: Finding a Home for Short Films 22:00 Why Shorts Are Harder Than Features 25:00 Ben's Short Film Life and the Distribution Dead End 27:00 Submission Details: Who Should Apply 29:00 The Gazebo Detour: Women Voters and Homeless Photographers 31:00 How the Curation Actually Works 33:30 Anna and Corbett's Body of Work 36:00 The Huel Howser Tangent We Needed 40:00 Crisis as Opportunity: Abundance Over Scarcity 41:00 The Palace Theater in Marfa: A Big Announcement 44:00 Pivots, Blind Leaps, and Never Having a Real Job 48:00 Community Over Competition 50:30 MBA Takeaways and the Finance of Filmmaking 54:30 Gateway Drug Film: GIANT 56:00 Advice for Young Filmmakers: Curiosity and Joy 58:30 Closing Thoughts and South by Southwest Preview

Park City, 2026 —  we showed up without films, without press credentials, but still… ready to make our DocWalk dreams a reality. Welcome to the last of 4 episodes at Sundance: a walk down Main Street, where we hobnob with the best of the fest, greet the people, and do everything we can to stay warm in sub-freezing temps without a single movie ticket in sight.

This year at Sundance everyone was looking back (at the legacy of Robert Redford and what the fest has been) while still looking forward (to where we'll be in a year… Boulder, Colorado). We catch-up on the festival BizBuzz™: it's all M&A! Mergers and acquisitions (netflix/paramount/warners, oh my) and whether the indie spirit is actually back (Ben says it is). As men of the people, we focus on the men (& women) on the street. And they have a lot to say. Entertainment lawyer Ben Moskowitz breaks down what not to do when you're pitching, first-time producer Will Butler shares the innovations of JOYBUBBLES—the first film at Sundance to screen with open audio description for blind audiences, and Tribeca programmer Jarod Neece offers insight into the numbers game that you've gotta overcome when applying to a premier fest. We meet David Fortune, who turned a million-dollar grant into his debut feature COLOR BOOK, Jamaican producer/lawyer Rob Maylor who's about to make Delroy Lindo a first-time director, and filmmaker Dana Reilly fresh off her OUR BODY ELECTRIC premiere. Austin-based producers Russell Groves and Jessica Wolfson make brief cameos and former-Austinite Heather Courtney joins us to talk about the film she's producing with Christina Ibarra, and the one she's directing (thx to a Chicken & Egg research grant). 

Plus: surprise run-ins with editor Josh Ethier, publicist David Magdael and doc-superstar Ondi Timoner; Aaaand an owl that's been in 150 movies; a meteorologist and horses; and insight into a Park City real estate deal that proves that karma is real, but the best deals are behind us. Thanks to the Austin Film Society and The Long Time for sponsoring our trip! This one is a super-sized DocWalks with 50% more runtime, and a whole lot of fun! 

DISCUSSION LINKS:

JOYBUBBLES (2026) | COLOR BOOK (2024) | OUR BODY ELECTRIC (2026) | BUDDY (2026) | AMERICAN DOCTOR (2026) | THE OLDEST PERSON IN THE WORLD (2026) | THE HISTORY OF CONCRETE (2026) | ALL THE WALLS CAME DOWN (2025) | BREAKING THROUGH ROCKS (2025) | COME SEE ME IN THE GOOD LIGHT (2025) | HOT WATER (2026) | LITTLE MISS SUNSHINE (2006) | SEX, LIES, AND VIDEOTAPE (1989) | SLACKER (1990) | CLERKS (1994) | SEIZED (2026) | NUTS (2016) | TOO MANY COOKS (2014) | CARTS OF DARKNESS (2008) | MARCH OF THE PENGUINS (2005) | WINNEBAGO MAN (2009) | TOWER (2016) | CHOP & STEELE (2022) | DEAR MR. BRODY (2021) 

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 Ben is cold — arrival in Park City 03:58 Main Street dispatch — the last Sundance in Park City 07:00 First-timers and the indie spirit question 08:00 Jordan Tracy — ABC4 live weather with horses 11:50 Russell Groves and Jessica Wolfson 17:50 Ben Moskowitz on how new filmmakers find a lawyer 21:00 Good ideas, bad ideas — don't promise access you don't have 25:15 Will Butler and JOYBUBBLES — open audio description at Sundance 29:00 Jarod Neece — Tribeca at 25 and the 14,000-film funnel 37:10 Kino Lorber re-releasing Tower — breaking news 41:00 Bill and Robin — Park City locals since the sixties 44:30 Night falls — BizBuzz™ on Main Street 48:00 Dana Reilly — OUR BODY ELECTRIC premieres at Dances With Films 52:30 TOWER superfan and the sorority screening 55:00 David Fortune — COLOR BOOK and the AT&T Untold Stories million 58:30 Dapper dressed rule of thumb 1:01:30 Rob Maylor — producing Delroy Lindo's directorial debut 1:05:00 Josh Ethier — editing BUDDY from TOO MANY COOKS director Casper Kelly 1:09:30 Eagle and Spencer — skiing, Fugazi, and CARTS OF DARKNESS 1:14:00 Day three — Heather Courtney and Chicken & Egg research grant 1:19:00 David Magdael — publicist, Oscar campaigns, and changing the world through cinema and Ondi(!) Timoner 1:22:30 Heather's final thoughts — call your representatives 1:29:30 Driving away from Sundance — reflections on community and the grind 1:36:00 Sponsor messages and next episode preview — Anna Rau and the Nonfiction Hot List

It's time for some JOYBUBBLES! That's what first-time doc director Rachael J. Morrison believes—and she's brought her feature doc to Sundance to share the power of JOYBUBBLES with the world. Rachael's film introduces the world to Joe Engressia, a blind kid who discovered he could whistle a magic tone and hack the analog telephone system—becoming a pioneer in the world of "phone phreaking." Joe's story twists and turns as freaking leads to joy… and he inspires generations of outsiders to find their own unique paths through this life. 

Rachael comes from years of experience as an archival producer, so it's no surprise that her first directing effort relies heavily on the use of "emotional archival," playing at the intersection of audio and visual communication techniques. We'll learn how she stumbled onto Joe's story and how four cassette tapes of him narrating his own life completely transformed the film. Those tapes are right up Ben's alley, and he shares his experience making a cassette-inspired short doc about telephone pranksters, and Keith confesses to benefitting from a college friend who knew how to hack payphones for free long distance back in the 1990s. Anyone who spent time on twentieth-century party lines, or making 3-way calls with friends will be transported into those landline days when the telephone was a great connector. Rachael spent ten years meeting phone phreaks and making this film, and she shares her affinity for jamband bootleg trading, mixtape culture, and the beauty of sitting by the radio with your finger on the record button. Plus: kids sledding in Park City, shout-out to an Errol Morris deep cut, finding inspiration via the obituary page, and appreciation for Joybubbles' words of ultimate wisdom: if you love something enough, it loves you back.

Discussion Links:

JOYBUBBLES (2026) | GATES OF HEAVEN (1978) | WINNEBAGO MAN (2009) | READING RAINBOW (2024)

Timestamps:

00:00 Arrival in Park City — crisp is the word of the day 00:49 Meet Rachael J. Morrison (and immediately regret going uphill) 02:00 The JOYBUBBLES pitch — on a steep incline 04:00 Born blind, born to hack: Joe Engressia's story 05:00 Keith's college payphone hack and red boxes vs. blue boxes 07:00 Finding the story through a New York Times obituary 09:00 Emotional archival vs. see-and-say archival 13:00 Four cassette tapes in a closet change everything 15:00 Joe as proto-podcaster: answering machine radio in the '80s 17:00 What is a phone phreak? 19:00 Keith's son gets a landline for Christmas 22:00 Sundance premiere jitters and what audiences might grab onto 23:00 Phone phreaks meet Phish bootleg tape traders 25:00 Mixtape culture and the lost art of analog intention 28:00 Angry Kickstarter backers who turned out to be the biggest fans 30:00 "If you love it enough, it'll love you back" 32:00 The director-editor relationship: finding your band 37:00 From Bard art school to MoMA library to archival producing 40:00 Fair use and why indie docs depend on it 42:00 Lightning Round: GATES OF HEAVEN, Matt Wolf, and what's next 46:00 Where to find JOYBUBBLES

When we find Julie Goldman and Chris Clements of Motto Pictures in a Sundance hotel lobby, they're doing what they do—sharing hugs and encouragement with the Oscar-nominated team from THE PERFECT NEIGHBOR. They're the kind of producers who root hard for everybody in the field while juggling 8-10 projects of their own. 

Julie and Chris know everyone—and they champion longtime friends and newcomers to docmaking alike. When we asked Julie to walk with us last year at SXSW, she was a quick and easy "YES," but it took til Sundance for us all to be in the same place at the same time. And here we are. Keith knows the Motto Pictures folks from the 2016-2017 awards campaign when they were shepherding both LIFE, ANIMATED and WEINER. Ben's lucky enough to be in business with Motto on his upcoming DR. DANTE project. So we've all spent time together, and this time we're bringing you along for a winding view into Chris & Julie's work philosophies and partnership—they're married business partners who each offer different aspects to the films they produce.

We're away from the hubbub of Main Street and onto the nature trail spotting birds, murals, tunnels, and trees, all while digging into the Motto approach: how they financed their first feature on maxed-out credit cards at Brooklyn College, why they Zoom into shoots they can't attend, and how they handle story development and adaptation, including seeing a doc become a scripted comedy in partnership with Mike Schur and Ted Danson. Hear how Julie went from memorizing international phone prefixes at First Run Features to spotting potential in filmmakers before they see it themselves; and Chris drops a theory on why AI will never replace human storytelling—"it doesn't understand doubt." Join us as we stumble into a public art garden where we can't resist trying our hand at live-scoring the walk with some sculptural instruments. And we land on a question that these walks keep coming back to: where does documentary go from here? 

Plus: love for Errol Morris and Barbara Kopple, Owen Suskind's flawless post-screening routine, the beauty of sad bells echoing through a Park City tunnel, and the tuxedo pigeon is back (still a magpie). 

Discussion Links: BUCK (2011) | LIFE, ANIMATED (2016) | WEINER (2016) | CHICKEN PEOPLE (2016) | THE MOLE AGENT (2020) | MAN ON THE INSIDE (2024) | THE PERFECT NEIGHBOR (2025) | GATES OF HEAVEN (1978) | HARLAN COUNTY, USA (1976) | ABACUS: SMALL ENOUGH TO JAIL (2016) | WALTZ WITH BASHIR (2008) | CAPTURING THE FRIEDMANS (2003) | AN AMERICAN FAMILY (1973)

Timestamps: 00:00 Sundance lobby: hugging THE PERFECT NEIGHBOR crew goodbye 02:42 Meet Julie Goldman & Chris Clements of Motto Pictures 04:13 Motto origin story and the greatest hits 07:07 The tuxedo pigeon returns (still a magpie, Keith) 08:04 Married and making movies: how they navigate both 09:12 Eight to ten projects at once—parallel action as philosophy 11:17 Creative producing: Zoom-ing into shoots, feeding notes live 15:28 Julie's sales brain meets Chris's creative obsession 17:35 The credit card feature: Brooklyn College's worst financial advice 19:01 Why producing called louder than directing 21:02 Owen Suskind wants a cheeseburger and three movies 22:08 Motto's unofficial motto: dragging filmmakers kicking and screaming 25:02 The light at the end of the tunnel for doc filmmaking 29:15 Documentary is defense—and championships are won reacting 31:19 The pivot moment every good doc goes through 36:08 "AI doesn't understand doubt" 39:03 The sculpture garden jam session 40:27 What Motto looks for: a new way to see the world 46:03 YouTube, platforms, and where distribution is headed 50:12 The Motto farm system: interns to A24 51:14 Advice for first-time feature filmmakers 55:04 Gateway docs: GATES OF HEAVEN and HARLAN COUNTY, USA 57:08 What they can't stop thinking about 59:32 The short: FOR SOME KIND OF REFUGE 01:01:12 Sponsors: Austin Film Society & The Long Time

We are excited to catch Sam Green—despite freezing our asses off on Main Street—hours after the world premiere of THE OLDEST PERSON IN THE WORLD. What starts as a conversation about chasing Guinness World Records quickly becomes something bigger: how curiosity transforms into meaning. 

Sam walks us through ten years of filming, cancer scares, fatherhood, and the realization that 116-year-olds don't give a fuck about pearls of wisdom—like Keith, they just want snacks and naps. Sam is an inspiration, driven by endless curiosity and the urge to overcome his own inner shy-kid, he shares the impetus to innovate docmaking with 'live cinema' and we witness his obsession with manhole covers (yes, really). Sam pulls back the curtains on his years-long cutting process with OLDEST PERSON editor Aaron Wickenden—they cut for 1-month a year for ten years! This walk is full of positivity, creativity, and a lot of laughs.

Plus: a stop & chat with Oscar-winning producer, Dan Cogan, why SALESMAN changed everything, and insight into Sam's new alter ego as a Venice futbol fanatic: Samuel Verde. 

It's the end of an era at Sundance, but Sam reminds us why we fell in love with this art form in the first place.

Discussion links:
THE OLDEST PERSON IN THE WORLD (2026) | THE RAINBOW MAN/JOHN 3:16 (1997) | THE WEATHER UNDERGROUND (2002) | 32 SOUNDS (2022) | SALESMAN (1969) | SANS SOLEIL (1983)

Timestamps:
00:00 Main Street at Sundance—14 Degrees
01:05 Meeting Sam During Covid Austin
02:42 The Oldest Person in the World—The Film That Changed
04:13 When Centenarians Just Want Snacks
07:41 The Manhole Cover Obsession
11:17 From Rainbow Man to Sundance 1997
15:28 The Weather Underground & Paul Thomas Anderson
19:56 Editing Over Ten Years with Aaron
25:32 The Live Documentary Revolution
29:13 Performing Arts Saved My Career
34:24 Advice: Keep It Small, Keep It Fun
41:39 Barbara Kopple on Watching Your Own Films
45:01 Gateway Drug: Salesman & Sans Soleil
48:25 Samuel the Venice Soccer Fan
49:26 The End of an Era at Sundance

Ben squeezes into the VHS vault that is the Found Footage Festival (FFF) headquarters in NY with Joe Pickett—half of the FFF comedy duo who quit his job to follow a dirty country singer for four years, turned stolen instructional videos into a 20-year comedy empire, and once declared a half-naked woman painting ceramic clowns "the greatest moment in VHS history." Joe walks us through his filmmaking suicide pact with Nick Prueher, explains why Larry Pierce's "I Like to (BEEP)" changed everything, and reveals the dark truth about JINGLE BABIES. From sleeping on floors for a full year to getting sued in federal court for morning show pranks, Joe's path from documentary filmmaker to comedy archeologist proves you need to be willing to sleep on couches in order to finish what you start. We're surrounded by 14,638 tapes (no doubles), a giant Bart Simpson mask, and a signed GROWING PAINS poster that survived the New York subway. Plus: his new doc is so illegal you have to sign an NDA just to watch it.

Discussion links:
VHS PARTY LIVE! (2026) | DIRTY COUNTRY (2007) | CHOP & STEELE (2022) | AMERICAN MOVIE (1999

) | SHERMAN'S MARCH (1985) | WINNEBAGO MAN (2009)

Timestamps:
00:00 Welcome to Found Footage Festival HQ
02:42 The origin story: Larry Pierce and dirty country music
07:41 Quitting jobs and the suicide pact
11:17 Following weirdos for four and a half years
15:28 How Found Footage Festival started as fundraising
19:56 South by Southwest premiere and audience award
24:19 Greatest hits from the VHS vault
29:13 What makes bad things good
34:24 Lightning round: American Movie as gateway drug
40:00 Advice for aspiring filmmakers: sleep on couches
45:00 Video Filmed for Life—the illegal documentary

What does impact look like? That's what we're asking this week's guest, Courtney Cook—a veteran impact producer who's helped hundreds of doc-makers answer that question in her 7-years at POV. A high school teacher-turned-PhD-turned-doc-producer and soon-to-be professor of documentary film at Texas State, Courtney has strong opinions about perspective, ethics, and how having a "bad attitude" is the only way to make it in this field. 

Courtney happily draws inspiration from Black Feminist Thought, HANDS ON A HARDBODY, and the stop-motion masters, the Brothers Quay—explaining just what it means to be "theoretically promiscuous."  Transitioning out of her role at POV and preparing to re-enter academia, we catch Courtney shortly before the Augmented Reality project LAYERS OF PLACE: AUSTIN that she produced with the MIT Open Documentary Lab makes its debut at SXSW this Spring. Courtney breaks down the difference between making art and making a career, why you should know how you want to "haunt" your audience, and what it actually takes to build a life as a documentary storyteller when you're not "kind-of rich." This wide-ranging walk cuts through the noise and confusion of the current doc landscape and lands at a simple conclusion, that the real silver lining in this industry is us. "We're the silver lining." 

Plus: the gospel of asking better questions, how EYES ON THE PRIZE changed her entire life, why librarians rule, and a peek inside a little free art gallery in the Mueller neighborhood of East Austin. This one's about community, hustle, and learning to "hold on gently."

Discussion Links:
EYES ON THE PRIZE (1987-1990) | HANDS ON A HARD BODY (1997) | LAYERS OF PLACE: AUSTIN (2026)

Timestamps:
00:00 Welcome and Guest Introduction
02:00 Outlook on Texas Filmmaking and Doc Distribution
05:00 Mueller Lake Park and POV Impact Work
07:00 Education, Ethics, and Power in Documentary
10:00 From PhD to POV: Courtney's Path
15:00 Building Careers vs. Building Projects
19:00 Producer Pay and Labor Practices
23:00 The Three-Month Trial Period
26:00 Feisty Conversations and Better Questions
29:00 Grant Applications and Process
33:00 Theoretically Promiscuous
34:00 Silver Linings: We Have Each Other
37:00 MIT Augmented Reality Project
39:00 It's All Who You Know (Two Steps Away)
43:00 Believing in People Until You Learn Otherwise
45:00 Gateway Drug: Eyes on the Prize
48:00 Advice for Emerging Filmmakers
52:00 Little Free Art Gallery Discovery
53:00 DIY Impact and Educational Distribution
55:00 What's Next for Courtney

This week, Ben is on a solo mission to a freezing New York City, where legendary filmmaker Alan Berliner guides him through his studio that's equal parts fine art gallery and documentary laboratory. We're talking about a 108 drawer sound sculpture that Alan plays like an instrument, flood-destroyed film reels turned gorgeous works of art, and the kind of collections that make you wonder where archiving ends and genius begins. Alan waxes poetic on the fine art vs. filmmaker debate, breaks down why every film portrait is really about the person behind the camera, and encourages thinking like a filmmaker even when you're not on set. We get into his philosophy on acting at the speed of thought, editing without treatments, trusting your gut and letting the material tell you what it wants. Then there's his new film, BENITA, a deeply personal work born from decades of friendship and unimaginable loss — Alan's tribute to a woman whose story yearned to be told, even after she was gone. He opens up about what it means to honor someone through film, and why he believes the documentary world is about to shrink fast. This one's about honoring both your mentors —  in the case of Ben learning from Alan — and your mentee's — in the case of Alan coming to know Benita. Buckle up for a beautiful, wild walk through Alan Berliner's studio and his filmmaking career.

DISCUSSION LINKS:

INTIMATE STRANGER (1991) | NOBODY'S BUSINESS (1996) | THE SWEETEST SOUND (2001) | WIDE AWAKE (2006) | FIRST COUSIN ONCE REMOVED (2012) | BENITA (2024) | THE FAMILY ALBUM (1986)

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 Welcome to Doc Walks: Ben Solo in NYC 00:49 Meeting Alan Berliner at His Studio 02:42 Audio File: The 108 Drawer Sound Sculpture 07:00 The Object Cabinets: Bells, Keys, and Lock Drawers 11:17 Composing with Drawers: Live Demonstration 14:00 "Slow Dissolve" and Think Like a Filmmaker 19:56 Fine Art vs. Documentary: Does the Distinction Matter? 23:00 Parts and Labor: The 534-Frame Machine Sculpture 30:00 Translucent: Film Reels as Light Sculptures 34:24 The Title Card Lens Installation 40:00 The Martin Luther King Jr. Citizenship Award 45:00 Oklahoma, Graduate School, and Unlikely Origins 50:00 From Grandfather to Father to Self: The Portrait Films 56:00 Never Writing a Treatment: The Intuitive Process 1:03:00 Acting at the Speed of Thought 1:07:00 BENITA: A Collaboration with the Departed 1:16:00 The Documentary Landscape in Crisis 1:22:00 Windows and Mirrors: The Purpose of Portraiture 1:26:00 Advice for Filmmakers: Fascination and Need 1:31:00 Closing and Next Episode Preview

Come along as Ben flies solo—no Keith, just the UT campus and two documentary titans who've been making films together longer than most marriages last: the indomitable Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker have a working partnership runnin' north of fifty years. They made AMERICAN TONGUES (1988) back when folks across the US said they just spoke like everyone else. They made PEOPLE LIKE US (1999) while Americans were spurring their nose at class conversations. And they're still at it—currently chasing down an obscure architect and sharing a film about a storied Texas State Senator. We get into the unglamorous truth of comedic docs (funders hate them), the secret to not killing your creative partner (separate wives, separate boroughs), and why the best stories are in places nobody's looking. They started as VISTA volunteers in New Orleans with no one to tell them where to point the camera. Now they're late-career and busy doing whatever the hell they want. Plus: we decipher a bunch of boats strung together, we bask in neo-classical architecture, all while Louis just wants a dirty chai.

DISCUSSION LINKS:

AMERICAN TONGUES (1988) | YEAH YOU RITE! (1985) | PEOPLE LIKE US (1999) | CONFLUENCE (2024) | WINNEBAGO MAN (2010)

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 Keith sits this one out 00:49 Meeting Louis and Andy on the UT campus 02:42 The Rodney Ellis short and pulling political levers 04:13 Fifty years of partnership—step one: separate wives 07:41 Cass Gilbert: The everywhere architect you've never heard of 11:17 VISTA volunteers in 1970s New Orleans 15:28 Filming the intangible—accents, class, motherhood 17:48 Why funders hate funny 19:56 The three Cs killing documentary: celebrity, crime, cults 22:08 Steel canoes and the sculpture guessing game 25:32 Making CONFLUENCE during COVID 29:13 AI horror movies and the death of 90-minute docs 34:24 Advice: Go where nobody else is 37:00 Co-directing—the case for and against 43:00 Turtle pond, dirty chai, wrap it up

Consider this your midnight toast to new beginnings—we're popping the cork on our Sundance episode just in time for the calendar reset. As 2024 turns to 2025, we're grateful for the documentary community that keeps showing up, keeps creating, and keeps walking these festival streets in search of collaborators, inspiration, and maybe a free hot cocoa. So grab a glass of whatever you're having, bundle up (it's 31 degrees in spirit), and ring in the New Year with Ben and Keith's man-on-the-street adventure through Park City…

We're walkin' and talkin' through the heart of Sundance, crashing the festival without a film and somehow finding exactly what we came for. From chance encounters with Iranian filmmakers debuting their first feature to freestyle raps from parking lot attendants, this episode captures the serendipity of showing up. We debate whether you need to be a "hopeless optimist" or a "pragmatic realist" to survive indie filmmaking (spoiler: legendary producer Sue Kim has strong opinions). Along the way we spot tuxedo pigeons, dodge UPS trucks, and nearly intercept Conan O'Brien. Plus: the house analogy for selling your film that actually makes sense.

Timestamps:
00:00 Welcome to Doc Walks: Sundance Day
00:49 First Impressions: 31 Degrees and Feeling Like Imposters
02:42 Why Sundance Matters (Even Without a Film)
04:13 The House Analogy: Films, Sales Agents, and Finding Your Plot of Land
07:41 Man on the Street: Volunteers, Skiers, and the Latino Flu Panel
11:17 Meeting Frank Mosley: In-Person Connection in a Virtual World
15:28 Iranian Filmmakers Debut: Cutting Through Rocks
17:48 The Adobe House and Free Hot Cocoa
19:56 Chosen Glory: Parking Lot Freestyle and Good Vibes
22:08 Speed and First: Hope for the Future Generation
25:32 Producer Sue Kim: The Case Against Hopeless Optimism
29:13 Hopeful vs. Hopeless: Finding Your Festival Philosophy
34:24 Wrapping Up Day One and Looking Ahead

Discussion Links:
CUTTING THROUGH ROCKS (2025) | OVEX (2025) | WINNEBAGO MAN (2009) | TOWER (2016)

Consider this a favorite re-wrapped Christmas gift just for you—Matt Wolf's PEE-WEE AS HIMSELF documentary is streaming now on HBO, reminding us all that the best presents are the ones that make us feel like kids again. This holiday season we're celebrating filmmakers who find magic in obsession and who build their own creative communities one passion project at a time. So pour yourself some eggnog, settle in by the fireplace, and unwrap our conversation with Matt—a filmmaker who turned his love of underground artists into a career that spans from cello-playing disco composers to the most beloved man-child in American comedy…

It's a walk and talk through Matt Wolf's Lower East Side neighborhood as Ben unspools the making of WILD COMBINATION and Matt's path as a gay teen activist to documentary filmmaker. Matt opens up about why he never puts his own money into projects (and how he's managed to pull that off), the importance of finishing what you start, and finding archives you didn't know existed. We dig into his new soap opera doc filming behind the scenes at THE BOLD AND THE BEAUTIFUL, and Matt shares his philosophy on building a body of work that surprises even himself. Plus: the secret to finding your creative community in a Melrose Place-style Manhattan courtyard.

Timestamps:

00:00 Walking to Meet Matt Wolf in New York

01:26 Matt's Melrose Place: Building Community in Manhattan

02:33 First Connections: Wild Combination and Arthur Russell

05:11 From Gay Teen Activist to Documentary Filmmaker

08:21 The Documentary That Was Made About Matt (And Why He Hated It)

09:45 Paper Tiger Television and the Experimental Film World

11:46 How Wild Combination Became a Feature (Accidentally)

13:11 Finding Your Niche and Telling Stories That Connect

16:29 The Search for Stories: Archives and Access

20:56 Never Put Your Own Money In: Matt's Golden Rule

23:41 Taking a Break (And Why It Never Really Works)

25:32 The New Project: Behind the Scenes of Soap Operas

28:16 The State of Documentary: Shrinking Budgets and Staying True

31:27 Building a Body of Work That Surprises You

33:19 What Keeps Matt Going: The Love of the Work

35:37 Advice for Filmmakers: Finish What You Start

37:01 Wrapping Up the Walk

Discussion Links:

WILD COMBINATION: A PORTRAIT OF ARTHUR RUSSELL (2008) | PEE-WEE HERMAN AS HIMSELF (2025) | WELCOME TO THE DOLLHOUSE (1995) | SPACESHIP EARTH (2020) | THE YOUNG AND THE RESTLESS (1973-present) | THE BOLD AND THE BEAUTIFUL (1987-present)

As we close-out of our first year of doc'in & walkin' it's time to take stock in what this podcast is all about. We're excited to welcome self-proclaimed number one fan and Australian-born doc-maker, Sally O'Grady for a year-end, Year in Review episode. This nature-walk snakes through the wilderness behind Sally's North Austin home as Ben intros us to a game of "High, Low, Buffalo, Mitzvah" (a Steinbauer family dinner game) and a chance to reflect on the ups, downs, weird little moments and the true mitzvahs of our first 33 episodes. We'll catch up with some favorite Doc Walks bits, dig into what's working, get schooled on our Bechdel Test failures (eight women out of 33 guests—Sally came with receipts), and navigate the eternal tension between preparation and off-the-cuff authenticity. And Sally shares her 10-year journey making THE TROUBLE I SEE, a film about incarcerated fathers and their daughters, premiering at AFS Cinema on January 14th (tix on sale now!)

Along the way: a surprise encounter with an 86-year-old Vietnamese general-turned-crossing guard, a sit-down at Sally's Pond™, and a chance to commune with a magnificent blue heron who refuses to fly. Through the highs, the lows, the birds and the buffaloes, every step we've taken together in 2025 has been a mitzvah… happy holidays to you, and thanks for walking this road with us!

THE TROUBLE I SEE (2025) | WINNEBAGO MAN (2010) | TOWER (2016) | HIGH HOPES (2024) | PEEWEE PLAYS HIMSELF (2025)

00:00 Introduction and Sally O'Grady arrives
01:05 Sally as "number one fan" and Doc Walks origin story
02:00 Discovering Copperfield Nature Trail in northeast Austin
03:00 Sally's journey from Sydney to New York to Austin
05:00 Year one reflections and holiday episode setup
06:30 Do Ben-and-Keith-only episodes work? Sally weighs in
08:30 "Gardener Not a Carpenter" and useful documentary wisdom
10:00 Ben's vulnerability about prep vs. free-jazz conversations
11:00 Keith on wanting episodes to feel more like real conversations
13:00 The magnificent blue-painted live oak
14:30 High-Low-Buffalo-Mitzvah game explained
16:00 Sally's HIGH: Diane Quon's sensitive interview and Megan Gilbride's "make fucking cinema"
18:00 The title debate: why "Make Fucking Cinema" got vetoed
20:30 Keith's HIGH: Matt Wolf episode and overcoming fears about solo Ben episodes
23:30 Ben's HIGH: Celebrating Maureen Gosling and Les Blank's legacy
26:00 Sally's LOW: The Bechdel Test reality check (8 women out of 33 guests)
28:30 Ben and Keith respond to diversity critique
31:00 Ben's LOW: The off-camera conflict moment with Keith
34:30 Keith's LOW: Wanting guests to recognize them as fellow filmmakers
38:30 Buffalo: Matt Wolf's vanity and Ben's "tugboat" gaffe
40:00 Keith's Buffalo: Birds and describing the world
42:00 Ben's Buffalo: Embracing new formats amid industry change
43:30 Meeting Sally's neighbor Bowie, the 86-year-old Vietnamese general
46:30 Keith's mitzvah and development deal announcement
47:00 The blue heron finally appears
50:00 Sally's film THE TROUBLE I SEE and 10-year journey
54:00 Working with editor Sandra Guardado
57:30 Sally's next project: MA'AM and scammers targeting women therapists
1:01:00 Closing reflections and 2026 preview

What is it with all the doc-filmmakers turning to podcasting?!? No, not us… we're talkin' about David Modigliani—a playwright turned poet turned documentary filmmaker turned podcaster (and Stanley Tucci voice director). This is a fun walk with an old friend at a park rumored to be populated by peacocks!

The director of 2008's CRAWFORD (about a small town invaded by George W. Bush) and 2019's RUNNING WITH BETO (a quixotic look at Beto O'Rouke's life on the campaign trail), David is back in Austin for 36-hours to emcee the Home Slice Pizza Carnival and crash his old improv troupe, so naturally we dragged him through rocky trails and past $10 million homes to talk about his winding path from the Michener Center Grad program to doc-making, to his latest creation: PACK ONE BAG, an investigative podcast about his grandparents' escape from fascist Italy that premiered at Tribeca in 2024.

David speaks from personal experience (and with his hands) about why improv is basically documentary directing, how hybridized narrative podcasting allowed him to write dialogue for Stanley Tucci as his great-grandfather—and what it means to metabolize democracy's fragility in this troubled time. Plus: bubbling ponds of coy fish, finding a peacock carved in stone, and David voices his Italian grandparents' (as he does in his podcast) with glee.

This episode is sponsored by our friends at The Long Time—a 5-acre event-space and playground for your imagination. It's also the home field of The Texas Playboys (the sandlot baseball team that both Ben and David play for) and an ideal location for film productions!

For more information go to thelongtime.com and follow along on IG @thelongtimetexas.

DISCUSSION LINKS:

CRAWFORD (2008) | DONT LOOK BACK (1967) | RUNNING WITH BETO (2019) | PACK ONE BAG (2024) | BOYHOOD (2014) | MERRILY WE ROLL ALONG (2024) | BLUE MOON (2025) | HIT MAN (2023)

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 Introduction and Setup at Mayfield Park 02:00 Shoutouts: Chris Floyd, Pizza Champion & Austin Sayers' Steve Fromholz Doc 04:00 Finding Our Footing on Rocky Trails 07:00 The Santa Fe Grandparent Babysitting Setup 10:00 From Playwriting to Documentary: The Michener Center Years 13:00 Crawford Origins: Mini DV and Cindy Sheehan 17:00 Improv as Documentary Directing 21:00 The Yes-And of Verite Filmmaking 24:00 Houses Documentary Filmmakers Will Never Live In 26:00 The Grip's Advice: Get Feedback While You Can 30:00 Branded Content as Film School 34:00 Wounded Warrior Project and MSNBC 37:00 Pack One Bag: Fleeing Fascist Italy 42:00 Why Audio? Creative Nonfiction and Invented Archival 46:00 Writing Dialogue for Stanley Tucci 50:00 Playwriting Meets Podcasting 54:00 The HBO Bus Billboard Moment 58:00 Audio's Frictionless Distribution 01:03:00 What's Next: Italian Version and Screen Adaptation 01:05:00 Lightning Round: Don't Look Back, Linklater Dreams, Fatherhood 01:10:00 Metabolizing the Political Moment 01:12:00 David Does His Grandparents' Voices

Keith's out this week, so Ben is strutting Travis Heights solo with his good pal Scott(y) Ballew. Scott's a lesson in cutting-against the grain and getting more for it. You might know him from his work as the former Head of Content at Yeti, making 100+ branded docs with one rule: no product placement. Scott's path is pure chaos theory - starting with a UT football national championship ring, spending time as an insurance salesman, working the ol' LA PA grind to end up changing how brands tell stories (all while writing and recording his own songs), Scott's tried it all. We dig into the decade-long golden era at Yeti where he worked with 20 filmmakers at once (including Ben on the TOOTSIE film), and how he learned directing on the job from his inspirations. Scott breaks down Terry Allen's "follow the muse" philosophy (including how it sent him on his own musical journey), the surreal Telluride premiere of ALL THAT IS SACRED (his Jimmy Buffett/Tom McGuane film that premiered the day Buffett died), and why he'd rather make films with friends than chase a Townes Van Zandt-type of obsession (learning in part by documenting Townes' son, J.T.). 

Plus: exploring classic Texas cinema with Jeff Nichols, why loving your subjects beats gotcha filmmaking, and the eternal truth that podcasts are the new mayonnaise. 

This episode is sponsored by our friends at The Long Time—a 5-acre event-space and playground for your imagination. It's also the home field of The Texas Playboys (the sandlot baseball team that both Ben and Scott play for). 

For more information go to thelongtime.com and follow along on IG @thelongtimetexas 

Discussion Links:
WINNEBAGO MAN (2009) | GREENBERG (2010) | DIG! (2004) | BE HERE TO LOVE ME (2004) | THE DEVIL AND DANIEL JOHNSTON (2005) | NO DIRECTION HOME (2005) | MUD (2012) | ALL THAT IS SACRED (2023) | THE LONG TIME (2018) | TOOTSIE (2016) | ANCHOR POINT (2016) | EVERYTHING FOR ALL REASONS (2019)

Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction and Travis Heights Walk
02:00 Defining Yourself as a Creative
05:00 UT Football and National Championship
09:00 LA Dreams: Music Manager to PA
13:00 Podcasts Are the New Mayonnaise
15:00 Starting at Yeti
18:00 Why Branded Docs Work
24:00 Learning to Direct in the Edit Room
31:00 The Golden Era and Going Public
35:00 Writing Songs Out of Necessity
40:00 Tom McGuane, Jimmy Buffett, and Key West
47:00 Loving Your Subjects
53:00 Telluride and Jimmy Buffett's Death
57:00 Moving to Tecovas
01:00:00 Working with Jeff Nichols
01:02:00 Lightning Round: NO DIRECTION HOME (at home)
01:06:00 Dynamic Life vs One-Track Obsession
01:12:00 Closing Thoughts

Consider this your second helping of the holiday—Charlie Shackleton's THE ZODIAC KILLER PROJECT is now playing in theaters, which means audiences can now experience one of the most twisted, brightest docs of the year. This thanksgiving we're grateful for filmmakers who take big swings and for audiences who show up to support adventurous storytelling. So grab another slice of pie, settle in, and revisit our SXSW conversation with Charlie—a filmmaker who turned rejection into art and morphed failure into near-genius…

Walk and talk with ZODIAC KILLER PROJECT director Charlie Shackleton as he recounts the challenges (& opportunities) of bringing a film to new life after losing access to the subject. We'll explore Charlie's love-hate relationship with true crime and the way his film twists up familiar tropes. Never one to accept creative defeat, Charlie extolls the virtues of having a close collaboration with your entertainment lawyer and takes us back to the inspiration of Nick Broomfield as a basis for overcoming rejection on screen.  We share a lot of laughs and together decide to start a cult! Join us… for this episode of Doc Walks.

00:00 Welcome to Doc Walks: South by Southwest Day

00:49 Meeting Charlie Shackleton: A Unique Filmmaker

02:42 The Zodiac Killer Project: A Film About Failure

04:13 Overcoming Obstacles: The Making of Zodiac Killer Project

07:41 Archival Films and Legal Battles

11:17 Influences and Inspirations: The Filmmakers Who Shaped Charlie

15:28 Pitching and Funding: The Journey to Create Zodiac Killer Project

17:48 A Twist on True Crime: Charlie's Unique Approach

19:56 Starting a New Cult: A Filmmaker's Perspective

20:23 Intentional Critique in Documentary Filmmaking

22:08 Navigating Personal Involvement in Documentaries

25:32 The Reality of Developing Multiple Projects

29:13 Advice for Aspiring Filmmakers

34:24 Concluding Thoughts and Future Episodes

Thanksgiving is here and we're thankful for the filmmakers who make our home town of Austin, TX weird and wonderful. So this week, we're serving up a heaping helping of gratitude and indulging in a re-release of one of our favorite community episodes, EP09 - THE WATERING HOLE, LIVE FROM THE AUSTIN FILM SOCIETY. We recorded this one during SXSW at the annual Austin Film Society party. We're grateful to documentary filmmakers, the festivals that bring us all together, AFS for holding down the fort and for you—yes, you—who keep showing up to listen to a coupla turkeys. Most of all, we're grateful we get to do this together. So pull up a chair, loosen your belt, and feast on this Austin film family reunion.

ORIGINAL SYNOPSIS:

Drink up the scene like a local as Keith & Ben chat up their fellow Austinites (and a few out of town visitors) at the annual Austin Film Society Parking Lot Party at SXSW. This episode is a veritable smorgasbord of festival conversation including appearances by local filmmakers Cassie Hay, Tracy Frazier & Karen Skloss; festival programmers like Bart Weiss and James Faust; SXSW-premiering CREEDE, USA editor Andrew Saunderson;  producer Mike Blizzard; and an AFS-appreciation conversation with CEO Rebecca Campbell. All that and a literal Rolls Royce car crash makes this bonus episode a unique peek into Austin's film community. 

00:00 Introduction and Setting the Scene

00:59 Meeting Cassie Hay: A Filmmaking Journey

03:38 Tracy Frazier: From Documentaries to Gaming

06:39 Bart Weiss: The Evolution of Video Fest

11:56 Andrew Saunderson: Editing Creed USA

15:54 James Faust: Festival Highlights

16:16 Introduction to South by Southwest

16:53 Interview with James Faust

17:12 The State of Documentary Films

19:54 Challenges in the Film Industry

24:16 Rebecca Campbell on Austin Film Society

29:45 Mike Blizzard on Austin's Film Community

31:37 Karen Skloss on the Austin Film Society Party

34:22 Conclusion and Future Episodes

Join Ben as he walks solo with Patrick Heaphy—a New York producer/director and music doc extraordinaire. Together they saunter across South Congress, past the Continental Club to Arlyn Studios. Pat's the filmmaker behind CHARLEY CROCKETT: $10 COWBOY documentary—now screening at Austin Film Festival—but his career path runs through a Nancy Kerrigan vampire clip (the lav accessory, of course), the 1994 Olympics, and a 9/11 doc compiled from his day-of footage. We dig into the music documentary hustle: multi-cam concert films at the Ryman, working the Springsteen archives, and why answer-the-phone opportunity beats mere aspiration. Pat breaks down his company LCM247 (figure out what it means yourself), eating ramen for 26 odd years before festival recognition, and why the AI his mom uses is top of mind. Plus: Pat spots Will Ferrell's eyeballs and uncovers Willie's old haunt.

WITNESS TO 9/11: IN THE SHADOWS OF GROUND ZERO (2020) | NEBRASKA CELEBRATION: WORDS AND MUSIC (2024) | CHARLEY CROCKETT: $10 COWBOY (2025)

00:00 Introduction and Camera Work 01:00 Patrick's Background and Nancy Kerrigan Story 05:00 From Firefighter Family to Filmmaking 08:00 Post-Traumatic Stress Documentary 10:00 Selling Cars and Making Cable Commercials 12:00 Becoming the Music Guy 16:00 Musicians and Documentary Filmmakers 18:00 Charley Crockett's $10 Cowboy Origin 20:00 Arlyn Studios and Willie's Legacy 22:00 Americana Fest and Noah Kahan 24:00 Irish Connection and Multiple Hustles 26:00 9/11 Documentary 27:00 Lightning Round Begins 29:00 Charley Crockett Recording Process 33:00 Advice for Young Filmmakers 35:00 Gateway Drug Question 36:00 Dream Collaborators and AI

Meet Rena Effendi—National Geographic photographer, and first-time filmmaker whose SEARCHING FOR SATYRUS just won the top doc prize at the Austin Film Festival. This walk is pure magic—seemingly in honor of her butterfly-hunting film, monarch butterflies flit all around us like they know something the rest of us don't. Rena's film traces her hunt for one of the world's rarest butterflies, named after her father—a Soviet-era lepidopterist who collected 90,000 specimens before his untimely death. This unique species flies only once a year, on a mountaintop, above 10,000 feet, and along the militarized border between Azerbaijan and Armenia—two countries at war for decades. Just five people had ever seen the Satyrus Effendi—and that's when Rena enters the story.

She's got a lot to say about complicated family stories, layers of secrets, and life in the collapsing Soviet Union. Rena unpacks her jump from medium-format still photos to motion picture storytelling, building teams vs. working solo, and why neutrality matters when you're documenting war—even when it's your own country. 

Plus: a cowboy guitarist on a bicycle, honky-tonk dancing at the White Horse, and why documentary photographers make fearless filmmakers. A woman of the people, and of the butterflies, Rena Effendi is the real deal.

DISCUSSION LINKS:
SEARCHING FOR SATYRUS (2025) | PAST LIVES (2023) | HONEYLAND (2019)

TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 Introduction—Budapest or Istanbul?
01:00 Searching for Satyrus and the Austin Film Festival Win
02:00 Monarch Butterflies and the Rare Satyrus Effendi
04:00 First Time in Austin, First Film
05:00 From Office Job to Photographer—The Magnum Moment
08:00 Collapsing Soviet Union and Standing in Food Queues
10:00 Father's Death and Choosing Butterflies Over Geology
13:00 The Craft of Pinning Butterflies Like a Jeweler
14:00 Early Photography—Documenting Mahala's Transformation
16:00 City Symphonies and Capturing Disappearing Identity
18:00 Story Arcs in Still Photography
19:00 The Dying Mother—Last Picture in the Series
21:00 Austin's Transformation and Tech Bro Architecture
24:00 Birth of the Film—Googling Her Father's Name
26:00 The Butterfly Named After Her Father
27:00 Discovering a Half-Sister at Age 14
30:00 Healing Through Art—Looking at Father Through New Lens
32:00 2020 War and Gaining Access to Habitat
33:00 Building the Team—Producers and National Geographic Grant
36:00 Leadership Challenges of Filmmaking vs. Photography
37:00 Mom's Resistance and Opening Up
40:00 Kevin Andrew—Picking and Pedaling Through Austin
43:00 First Impressions of Austin and White Horse
45:00 Growing Up in War-Torn Culture
47:00 Neutrality and Non-Judgment
49:00 Artists vs. Journalists—The Blurry Line
51:00 Speed Round—Past Lives, Stay True to Story, Kill Your Darlings
54:00 Where to Find the Film

We've been trying to book this walk with director Chelsea Hernandez for weeks, but she's just too-busy city-hopping for the PBS music doc-series to hit the trail with us—until now. Chelsea is an Emmy-nominated director, a part of the Brown Girls Doc Mafia, and a great friend!  

On a return from a recent shoot in Puerto Rico for CITY OF SONGS, Chelsea found that her living room ceiling had collapsed, turning her life upside down… rather than get down about it, she took it as a sign from the universe. Time to move!

And time, finally, to get moving with us—thru the Boggy Creek Greenbelt in East Austin—on a winding walk & talk through her career. Starting with her early days (at age 9) hosting her own Martha Stewart-style kids show (99 episodes!)—then assistant editing for Ellen Siro and editing for Mario Troncoso—all the way to making her own feature doc. We get the scoop, with a focus on casting BUILDING THE AMERICAN DREAM, her feature debut about undocumented construction workers that's still painfully relevant today. And she breaks down the approach to co-directing (with Heather Courtney and Princess A. Hairston) for 2023's BREAKING THE NEWS—a doc that Keith EP'd and Episode 3 guest Diane Quon produced. She makes a compelling case for why three directors may be better than one.

Like many, Chelsea is caught-up in today's anti-PBS culture war, outlining how the Trump administration just killed her ITVS-funded film ("the movie Trump doesn't want you to see"). But she's happy to make the case for why PBS matters. It's not just art—it's jobs, community, and the lifeblood of democracy. Plus: why spending time in people's kitchens beats journalism, that time she worked for the Beto campaign, and how many baseballs are in Ben's minivan.

Discussion Links: BUILDING THE AMERICAN DREAM (2019) | BREAKING THE NEWS (2023) | AN UNCERTAIN FUTURE (2017) | ARTS IN CONTEXT (2013-2016) | THAT ANIMAL RESCUE SHOW (2020) | THE EYES OF ME (2009) | ( CITY OF SONGS (2025) | TO BE AND TO HAVE (2002) | TOWER (2016) | BEFORE MIDNIGHT (2013)

Timestamps: 00:00 Introduction and Guest Announcement 01:00 Chelsea's Roof Collapse Story 02:00 Walking the St. David's Community Garden 03:30 Child Star Origins - Kids Ideas TV Show 06:00 Transition from Broadcasting to Documentary 08:00 City of Songs and Traveling for PBS 10:00 CPB Funding Cuts and Trump's Impact 13:00 Building the American Dream Origins 16:00 Casting Real People - Finding Your Protagonists 20:00 Workers Defense Project and Building Trust 24:00 The Fat Mouse Encounter 26:00 Journalism vs. Documentary - Learning to Take Sides 30:00 Breaking the News - Three Directors, Three Perspectives 36:00 Co-Directing Challenges and Triumphs 40:00 Gateway Drug Film - To Be and To Have 42:00 Dream Collaborator Ethan Hawke 43:00 Immigration Raids and Current Work 45:00 Future Projects - Asylum Seekers School and Ruben Ramos 47:00 Baseball Count and Episode Title