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Explore every episode of the podcast Divergent States

Dive into the complete episode list for Divergent States. Each episode is cataloged with detailed descriptions, making it easy to find and explore specific topics. Keep track of all episodes from your favorite podcast and never miss a moment of insightful content.

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TitlePub. DateDuration
Joe Moore on the Future of Psychedelics: From Underground to Mainstream09 Oct 202501:02:26

Psychedelics are no longer the fringe—they’re reshaping medicine, culture, and consciousness itself.

In this episode of Divergent States, 3L1T3 and Bryan sit down with Joe Moore, co-founder and CEO of Psychedelics Today, to explore the messy evolution of the movement: from the chaotic 1960s to today’s corporate clinics and grassroots revival.

They trace Psychedelics Today’s origins, dive into the Vital training program, and discuss what it means to build trust in a scene that still distrusts institutions. Joe shares insight into the next decade of psychedelic science—AI-assisted molecule discovery, new drugs entering clinical trials, and the fading of old stigmas—and the risks of turning medicine into marketing.

Along the way, they talk Leary and McKenna, ketamine cults, LSD alchemy, and the underground traditions worth preserving.

The result is a grounded, forward-looking conversation about authenticity, ethics, and the future of altered states.

Key Points Covered 

  • How Psychedelics Today started from the breathwork underground
  • What the 1960s got wrong (and right) about psychedelics 
  •  The danger of idolizing substances and personalities — “don’t worship the drug” 
  • How overuse of ketamine mirrors past mistakes in psychedelic culture
    The future of psychedelic research and the AI-driven chemistry boom
    Vital, the 12-month training program creating the next generation of psychedelic professionals
  • What it takes to run an ethical business in a scene that distrusts business
    Harm reduction and why testing your substances matters more than ever
  •  The LSD Philosopher’s Stone — does the chemist’s energy shape the trip? 
  •  Why pleasure and integration must coexist in psychedelic healing 

🎙️ Joe Moore joins r/Psychonaut for an AMA on October 9, 2025!
🎧 Support the show and hear the Patreon-only “Trip Stories & Cosmic Jokes” bonus segment at patreon.com/divergentstates

Special thanks to SndBagz for the music!

00:00 – Intro / Bryan returns / Reggie Watts recap / Season 2 preview
04:16 – Meeting Joe Moore / Origins of Psychedelics Today
07:30 – Building a new media voice beyond academic monoculture
08:46 – Lessons from the 1960s and the cult of personality
12:00 – “Don’t Worship the Substance” – The Danger of Psychedelic Deification
13:30 – Unsung Heroes: Shulgins, Dr. Z, Grof & Leonard Pickard
15:00 – Repeating Old Mistakes: Ketamine Overuse and Media Myths
17:40 – “Is Anyone Driving the Bus?” – Who Really Controls Psychedelics Today
20:30 – Can Clinical Models Honor Mystical Experiences?
23:00 – Psychedelic Journalism: Objectivity vs Calling Bullshit
25:30 – Inside Vital – Redefining Psychedelic Training
28:30 – Teaching Mysticism to Therapists
31:00 – Building Trust in a Culture Skeptical of Business
37:30 – The Next Decade – Five Psychedelics Likely to Be Legalized
43:30 – Harm Reduction & Testing Culture
46:00 – The LSD Philosopher’s Stone – Energy, Alchemy & Intention
49:00 – Patreon Teaser – Trip Stories & Cosmic Humor
55:00 – Wrap-Up w/ Bryan – Breathwork, Culture & Community
59:00 – Closing – Future Guests, Patreon & Discord Invite

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https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

Reggie Watts on Psychedelics, Creativity, and Consciousness22 Sep 202500:39:59

Comedian, musician, and improvisational genius Reggie Watts joins Divergent States for an unfiltered deep dive into psychedelics, creativity, and consciousness. From jamming on LSD and mushrooms to experimenting with dissociatives and even the Apple Vision Pro, Reggie opens up about how altered states shape his art, comedy, music, and worldview.

We cover:

  • Psychedelics in creative flow and improvisation
  • Dissociatives as “drug-induced float tanks”
  • Saffron, ketamine, and unique mixes in performance
  • Mainstreaming psychedelics in culture
  • Flow states, music as healing, and shadow work
  • Reggie’s bucket-list substances and wild stories from stage to studio

🔑 Whether you’re a psychonaut, a fan of Reggie’s comedy and music, or just curious about the psychedelic creative process, this is one of his rare long-form podcast conversations.

👉 Full extended conversation (45+ minutes extra) only on Patreon: patreon.com/divergentstates

🎵 Thanks to Sndbagz for the music!

00:00 – Intro: Divergent States with Valerie Beltran
02:35 – Reggie Watts joins the show
03:27 – Saffron mixes & ketamine creativity
04:40 – Psychedelics and the creative process
05:40 – Solo vs. group creation on psychedelics
06:36 – Improv, ego, and the psychedelic equalizer
07:25 – Mainstreaming psychedelics & cultural shifts
08:15 – Tripping in ancient and future times
09:48 – Flow states, art, and natural psychedelics
12:26 – Dissociatives vs. psychedelics
15:00 – Apple Vision Pro + dissociatives
17:16 – Anamnesis: remembering the forgotten
19:31 – Jamming with Nazzle & improvisation
21:47 – Psychedelics: loosening control vs. sharpening focus
25:08 – Shadow work & healing through music
27:37 – Permission, freedom, and flow
29:47 – Psychedelics as tools or collaborators
32:00 – Closing thoughts & Patreon invite
35:04 – Outro reflections & gratitude

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Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mycocosm, and our Heroic Doser Lucy on Patreon!


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Tom Feegel: Can Psychedelics Heal the Opioid Crisis?07 May 202500:59:25

In this powerful new episode of Divergent States, your hosts 3L1T3 and Bryan sit down with Tom Feegel—CEO and Co-Founder of Beond, a pioneering Ibogaine clinic based in Mexico, to discuss the unfiltered realities of healing, addiction recovery, and the evolving landscape of psychedelic-assisted therapy.

Tom brings two decades of sobriety, a past life in global brand marketing, and deep experience navigating both the light and shadow of the psychedelic resurgence. This isn’t a conversation full of buzzwords: it’s a grounded, honest exploration of what actually helps people come back from the brink.

Together, we unpack what Ibogaine is, why it has a reputation for treating opioid addiction where other modalities fall short, and how the Beond model emphasizes safety, preparation, and integration over hype. Tom also shares stories from the frontlines: clients who arrive on death’s doorstep and walk away with not just sobriety, but a new story for themselves.

This episode dives into some hard but necessary questions:

  •     Why do traditional Western rehab models have such a low success rate?
  •     What does it mean to center human dignity in a treatment model?
  •     How can clinics scale without becoming exploitative?
  •     What role do communities like Reddit and independent media play in this movement?


Whether you're a harm reduction advocate, a skeptic, or just curious about where psychedelics are headed, this conversation challenges assumptions and offers a rare window into the operational and ethical complexities of real-world healing work.

Big thanks to our guest Tom Feegel for showing up with honesty, experience, and insight—and for the vital work he’s doing at Beond Ibogaine Clinic.
https://beondibogaine.com/
Appreciation to all our listeners, supporters, and community members who keep Divergent States growing with every episode.

Shoutout to our co-host Bryan for always bringing grounded, thoughtful perspective - and to you, for being part of this movement.

🎶 Music Credit

Original music by Dyl👽Alien - alien frequencies for earthbound minds.
Check out more of Dyl👽Alien’s work wherever interdimensional audio is transmitted.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Overview of the Podcast
03:10 Tom Fiegel's Personal Journey and the Founding of Beyond Ibogaine
18:40 The Role of Community and Support in Healing
22:29 Challenging the Stigma of Asking for Help
24:04 The Importance of Self-Forgiveness and Growth
28:31 Redefining Healing and the Role of Medicine
28:58 Healing Through Vision: Moving Beyond the Past
32:13 The Role of Ibogaine: A Natural Healing Tool
36:05 The Journey to Treatment: What to Expect
45:26 The Ibogaine Experience: A Transformative Process

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Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mycocosm, and our Heroic Doser Lucy on Patreon!


https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

Seven Principles of the Psychonaut w/ Valerie Beltran24 Apr 202500:49:28

What does it mean to be a responsible psychonaut?

In this episode of Divergent States, we sit down again with Valerie Beltran, licensed therapist, harm reduction expert, and educator with the Zendo Project, to unpack 7 core principles for navigating psychedelic states with intention, safety, and compassion.

We break down everything from testing your stash to dismantling your ego, and talk about how these powerful tools can help us grow: not just as individuals, but as a culture.

🔑 Topics we cover include:

  • Harm reduction, substance testing, and staying safe
  • What makes a psychonaut different from a recreational user
  • Ego dissolution vs. ego inflation in the psychedelic space
  • The beauty of Zendo-style peer support
  • Psychedelic diversity, inclusion, and ethical use
  • The soul quadrant: psychedelics as a call to community action
  • Integration as an everyday spiritual practice
  • Why set, setting, and intention still matter more than hype

Valerie brings grounded wisdom and therapeutic insight, while 3L1T3 and Bryan keep it real with stories, skepticism, and a few laughs about LSD philosophy, festival weirdness, and Rainbow drum circles.

🧠 This is a great starting point for new explorers and a reminder to seasoned trippers that we all need to check our egos at the door sometimes.

🎧 Music by Flintwick
 🪬 Support the show + get the bonus after-show with Valerie at patreon.com/divergentstates
🎤 Email: divergentstates@gmail.com

#Psychedelics #Psychonaut #Integration #ZendoProject #DivergentStates #PsychedelicTherapy #SetAndSetting #HarmReduction #MAPS #EgoDeath

00:00:00 - Introduction
00:00:18 - Valerie Beltran’s Background
00:01:37 - Updates from the Zendo Project
00:02:24 - Psychedelic Legalization News
00:03:35 - Psychedelic Science 25 Conference
00:05:19 - The Seven Psychonaut Principles
00:05:50 - Principle 1: Harm Reduction & Personal Safety
00:08:42 - Preparation (Set & Setting)
00:14:21 - Principle 2: Do No Harm to Others
00:16:07 - Principle 3: Community & Connection
00:21:36 - Principle 4: Diversity & Inclusion
00:25:59 - Principle 5: Ego Awareness
00:31:18 - Principle 6: Integration & Reflection
00:38:18 - Princliple 7: Advocacy & Social Justice
00:44:47 - Closing Remarks

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Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mycocosm, and our Heroic Doser Lucy on Patreon!


https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

Alli Schaper: Microdosing, Mushrooms, and Policy Reform10 Apr 202501:04:42

In this episode of Divergent States, we sit down with Alli Schaper, CEO of Supermush and co-founder of the Microdosing Collective, to explore the evolving world of functional and psychedelic mushrooms. Alli shares her journey into microdosing advocacy, the challenges of navigating the gray market for psychedelics, and the urgent push for policy reform to ensure safe, legal access.

We dive into the science behind microdosing, its profound benefits for mental health, creativity, and even athletic performance, and discuss why current regulations often overlook this powerful tool. Alli opens up about how psychedelics helped her family process grief and why storytelling is key to destigmatizing these substances. The conversation also highlights the risks of unregulated products (like gas station "shrooms"), the importance of community-driven advocacy, and the potential for cultural momentum to shape smarter policies.

With psychedelic mushrooms gaining mainstream attention, from wellness brands to underground markets, we ask: Are we "legalizing the whole bottle of wine before the sip"? Tune in for a thought-provoking discussion on the future of microdosing, the role of functional fungi in daily health, and how everyday individuals can help drive this movement forward.

Music by DylAlien.

Takeaways

  • Mushrooms can have a profound impact on physical and mental health.
  • Microdosing can help maintain mental health and prevent burnout.
  • Psychedelics can be valuable tools for processing grief.
  • There is a cultural gap in understanding and accepting death.
  • Microdosing is often misunderstood and misrepresented in popular culture.
  • Functional mushrooms offer various health benefits beyond nutrition.
  • Community and intentional gatherings are essential for wellness.
  • Advocacy for microdosing is crucial for policy changes.
  • The definition of a microdose is often misinterpreted.
  • The Microdosing Collective aims to represent and support microdosers. There is a need for a legal safe pathway for microdosing.
  • Education and research are crucial for microdosing advocacy.
  • Community involvement enhances the impact of policy reform.
  • The psychedelic gray market poses risks and opportunities.

https://www.microdosingcollective.org/

https://supermush.com

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Psychedelic Science 25
02:53 Ali Schaper's Journey into Microdosing
06:08 Balancing Entrepreneurship and Advocacy
09:00 Personal Experiences with Grief and Psychedelics
12:01 The Intersection of Wellness and Mortality
15:05 Microdosing Collective and Its Goals
17:48 Functional Mushrooms vs. Psychedelic Microdosing
21:01 Benefits of Functional Mushrooms
23:57 Debunking Myths about Microdosing
28:45 Legal Pathways for Microdosing
30:12 Challenges in Microdosing Policy
32:05 Education and Community Engagement
34:52 The Role of Everyday Psychonauts
36:54 Understanding the Psychedelic Gray Market
39:47 Policy Adjustments for Safe Microdosing
41:25 Community-Driven Ethos in Regulation
43:01 Cultural Momentum and Storytelling
45:41 The Renaissance of Psychedelics
47:42 Collaborations and Community Initiatives
49:01 Supporting the Movement

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Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mycocosm, and our Heroic Doser Lucy on Patreon!


https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

JR Sawyers – The First Film About Set, Setting, and Psychedelic Therapy? A Trip Elsewhere24 Mar 202501:07:14

In this deeply personal and eye-opening episode, we sit down with filmmaker JR Sawyers, the mind behind the indie psychedelic drama A Trip Elsewhere. What begins as a conversation about a film turns into a powerful exploration of transformation, healing, and consciousness.

JR opens up about the psychedelic retreat that changed his life, the emotional weight of isolation during the pandemic, and how he turned those experiences into cinematic storytelling. We dive into the emotional architecture of A Trip Elsewhere, the science and stigma of psychedelics, and how visuals can speak to the soul when words fall short.

From ego death to sacred geometry, from heartbreak to healing—this episode is as introspective and surreal as the film itself. Whether you’re curious about psychedelics, passionate about indie film, or just looking for a conversation with real heart, this one is not to be missed.

🎬 A Trip Elsewhere is streaming now on Amazon Prime, Tubi, Apple TV, and the Roku Channel.

Takeaways

  • J.R. Sawyers is an independent filmmaker inspired by introspective films.
  • His film explores the therapeutic effects of psychedelics.
  • Sawyers experienced a transformative retreat that influenced his filmmaking.
  • The film's visuals aim to capture the essence of psychedelic experiences.
  • Character development reflects different emotional struggles and transformations.
  • The future of psychedelics in therapy looks promising with increasing acceptance.
  • Sawyers drew inspiration from various books and films to shape his narrative. Actors appreciated the character journeys in the film.
  • Filmmaking was a way to relive the retreat experience.
  • Setting and guidance are crucial for psychedelic experiences.
  • Sawyers is working on a horror film about a possessed psychiatrist.
  • The film addresses the silent pandemic of mental health issues.
  • Psychedelics can help build empathy in a disconnected world.
  • Letting go is essential during psychedelic experiences.
  • He has never had a bad trip, highlighting the need for guidance.

Again, thank you to everyone who is supporting on Patreon, all of the music entries (DylAlien, Flintwich, and Future Boogz), everyone who has helped with scheduling and booking, and last but not least, r/psychonaut.

 00:00 – Intro & Guest Welcome
 02:00 – Inspirations & Origins
 04:00 – First Psychedelic Retreat Experience
 07:00 – Translating Psychedelics to Film
10:30 – The Visual & Emotional Grammar of A Trip Elsewhere
14:00 – Character Arcs & Psychological Themes
18:00 – Real-Life Moments That Made the Film
21:00 – Therapeutic Psychedelics: Real Science, Real Stories
25:00 – Set, Setting, and Integration
30:00 – Viewer Reactions, Misconceptions & Mother’s Transformation
34:00 – The Future of Psychedelics in Film and Medicine
37:00 – Behind the Scenes: Budget, Casting & Visual Storytelling
41:00 – New Projects & Final Reflections
44:00 – Advice for Psychedelic Newcomers
47:00 – Outro & Where to Watch A Trip Elsewhere

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Valerie Beltran & Chelsea Rose – What Happens When a Trip Goes Sideways13 Mar 202501:07:11

In this powerful episode of Divergent States, we’re joined by Valerie Beltran and Chelsea Rose-Pires of the Zendo Project- an organization redefining harm reduction and compassionate care at festivals, events, and beyond.

We explore how the Zendo Project began as a MAPS initiative and evolved into its own nonprofit dedicated to supporting people through difficult psychedelic experiences and emotional crises, not with judgment or clinical detachment, but with radical empathy and peer support.

From creating safe spaces at Burning Man to launching training programs for crisis responders, Valerie and Chelsea offer insight into how the Zendo Project is transforming both event culture and the broader conversation around mental health, community care, and psychedelics.

Whether you’ve had a challenging trip, want to support others through non-ordinary states, or are just curious about what real-world harm reduction looks like, this is an episode you don’t want to miss.

🧘‍♀️ Learn how just being present can change lives.
🧠 Discover why “sitting, not guiding” is a revolutionary principle.
💬 And find out how you can get involved, support their mission, or even join them in the field.

“You don’t have to be altered to walk into the Zendo. You just have to be human.” – Valerie Beltran

🔗 Learn more or get involved: zendoproject.org
💚 Donate. Volunteer. Sit with someone. It matters.

Forgot to mention on the episode, but big thanks to Future Boogz for letting us feature their track on this episode! Ach for the art, Brad for the help, and all of the Patreon Supporters! 

All content in Ask Me Anything sessions are for educational purposes only. Zendo Project does not provide any legal, medical or mental health advice. Consult with a lawyer, doctor, or mental health therapist before making any significant decisions for your own situation. Any references to third party websites or service providers are made without any warranties, express or implied. All participants should conduct their own due diligence on any third party websites or professionals before engaging in any conduct. Zendo Project does not encourage or facilitate any illegal conduct.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to the Zendo Project and Festival Collaboration
04:06 Understanding the Zendo Project's Mission and History
10:27 The Role of Outreach and Community Support
14:46 Experiencing a Zendo Session: What to Expect
17:56 Collaboration with Medical Services and Event Producers
21:11 Challenges in Harm Reduction Awareness
23:57 Exciting New Partnerships and Initiatives
27:39 Success Stories and Impact of the Zendo Project
32:10 The Impact of Zendo Project
34:06 Getting Involved: Training and Community
36:13 Education and Outreach in Psychedelic Spaces
39:06 Navigating Adverse Experiences
42:45 Challenges in Providing Services
44:01 Future Vision and Growth of Zendo Project
48:10 Inclusivity and Accessibility in Support Services
52:08 Integration After Experiences
54:57 How to Support Zendo Project

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Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mycocosm, and our Heroic Doser Lucy on Patreon!


https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

DylAlien on Psychedelic Music Culture: Trance Rituals, Cosmic Giggles & Prankster Wisdom23 Feb 202501:02:07

In this episode of Divergent States, we talk with Dylalien: psychedelic DJ, producer, schoolteacher, and longtime organizer of Goa Gil’s legendary all-night, open-air ritual dance parties. You’ve heard his music on this podcast, but in this conversation, we go deep on what it means to create and participate in psychedelic music culture at its most raw, weird, and transformative.

Together, we explore:

  • The life and legacy of Goa Gil, trance music’s spiritual godfather
  • The influence of Hindu mysticism and Shiva archetypes in psychedelic culture
  • The cosmic giggle: what happens when you dance all night and see the joke behind the universe
  • DJing while tripping, playing to the sunrise, and accessing “wizard vision”
  • How sound, sync, and group dance create stacked synchronicities
  • Why trance is a tool, music is a medicine, and exhaustion is a drug
  • The evolution of the underground, from vinyl and anonymity to phones and algorithms
  • Being a high school teacher with a secret psychedelic life (“Did you just say that out loud?”)
  • Pranksters, dosed swimming pools, and the chaos magic of the California scene
  • How a late-in-life awakening led him to start releasing music, after decades in the shadows

We also talk about how psychedelic states can permanently shift your view of reality—how even sobriety feels different once you've danced with the universe. Dylalien reflects on how psychedelics pushed him to go vegan, redefined his ideas about spirituality, and reminded him again and again: “I don’t know anything. And that’s OK.”

This episode blends stories, insight, laughter, and nostalgia with the kind of wisdom that only comes from living decades in a counterculture groove. Whether you’re a musician, a tripper, a Deadhead, or just someone who’s felt the beat pull them into something bigger—you’ll feel at home here.

🎧 Music by Dylalien
🔗 Learn more about Goa Gil’s legacy and psychedelic trance culture
🧠 Support the show: patreon.com/divergentstates
🎤 Want to be on the podcast? Hit us up on Reddit, Instagram, or TikTok.

#Psytrance #GoaGil #PsychedelicMusic #CosmicGiggle #Psychedelics #Deadhead #DivergentStates #Pranksters #TerrenceMcKenna #DJCulture #TranceDance #PsychedelicExperience

Big thank you Bryan, Dylalien, Flintwick, Ach, and Brad of Integration Communications!

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to DylAlien and Goa Gil
02:46 The Impact of Goa Gil on Electronic Music
05:58 The Cosmic Giggle and Psychedelic Experiences
08:58 The Evolution of Music and Technology
11:58 The Role of Music in Trance and Connection
15:45 The Changing Landscape of Music Festivals
18:03 Teaching and Navigating Youth Culture
21:05 The Joy of Musical Collaboration
24:05 The Therapeutic Power of Music and Psychedelics
27:59 Exploring the Power of Music and Drumming
34:19 The Journey into Music and Creativity
37:24 Psychedelics and Reality: A New Perspective
49:57 Microdosing: A Therapeutic Alternative
52:55 Building a Community Through Psychedelics

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Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mycocosm, and our Heroic Doser Lucy on Patreon!


https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

Wendy Tucker on the Shulgin Legacy & the Future of the Farm: Preserving Psychedelic History11 Feb 202500:47:49

In this profound episode of Divergent States, we welcome Wendy Tucker, daughter of Ann Shulgin and stepdaughter of the legendary Sasha Shulgin, the "Godfather of Ecstasy." Wendy shares intimate stories of growing up at the iconic Shulgin Farm, working alongside Sasha in his lab, and her mission to preserve their legacy through the Shulgin Foundation.

Key Topics Covered:

  • Sasha’s Lab & Humble Genius: Wendy recounts behind-the-scenes moments with Sasha, his playful humor, and the creation of 200+ psychedelic compounds.
  • The Farm’s Future: Why the Shulgin property is being preserved as a living community space—not a museum—with plans for workshops, events, and even weddings.
  • MDMA’s Therapeutic Roots: How Leo Zeff and Ann Shulgin pioneered underground therapy, and why veterans are now leading the charge for healing.
  • Transform Press: Updates on Sasha’s lecture series, The Nature of Drugs, and other rare archival projects.
  • How to Get Involved: Supporting the foundation’s mission to protect psychedelic history and foster education.

Perfect for: Psychonauts, historians, therapy advocates, and anyone curious about the intersection of science, culture, and cognitive liberty.

Links & Resources:

  • Donate or learn more: shulginfoundation.org
  • Follow Divergent States for more deep dives: [Instagram/YouTube] @DivergentStates]

Subscribe now to explore the minds and movements shaping psychedelics today!

Thank you to all the Guests, Patreon supporters, music submissions, and all the wonderful people that come together to make this thing happen! We couldn't be doing this without YOU!

Big thank you Bryan, Dylalien, Flintwick, Ach, and Brad of Integration Communications!

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to the Shulgin Legacy
03:00 Wendy Tucker's Journey and the Shulgin Foundation
06:04 The Importance of the Shulgin Farm
08:55 Community Engagement and Events
11:50 Women and Psychedelics: The Deva Collective
15:00 Personal Reflections and Lessons from the Shulgins
17:53 MDMA Therapy and Veterans' Healing
21:01 Education and Stigma in Psychedelic Use
24:01 Supporting the Shulgin Foundation
26:58 Future Initiatives and Community Building
29:49 Transform Press and Preserving Knowledge
33:03 Balancing Legacy and Modern Research
35:46 Conclusion and Future Outlook

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https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

Rick Doblin Unplugged: Psychedelics, Parenting, Trauma & the Future of MAPS29 Jan 202501:05:55

In this episode of Divergent States, we sit down with Rick Doblin, founder of MAPS (Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies), for a raw, unscripted conversation on the future of psychedelic therapy, the dangers of hype, and the deeply personal reasons behind his decades-long mission.

We go deep into:

  • Why MDMA was criminalized and how Doblin outmaneuvered the DEA
  • The hard lessons from MAPS' FDA rejection and what's next
  • Parenting and psychedelics: how both Rick and 3L1T3 approach education with their kids
  • The trauma epidemic—why it’s bigger than war, abuse, or addiction
  • How psychedelics could help shift collective consciousness in an age of collapse
  • Burning Man, the Zendo Project, and building a new kind of community

Doblin shares stories of his first psychedelic trips, his rebellious roots, and his vision for a future where safe, supported altered states are a human right, not a privilege. This isn’t just policy talk, it’s soul talk.

👉 If you’re neurodivergent, psychedelic-curious, or just fed up with the way things are—this one’s for you.

🧠 Support the show: patreon.com/divergentstates
🎟️ Learn more about Psychedelic Science 2025: maps.org
🔬 Psychedelic Science 25 at https://www.psychedelicscience.org

Thank you to our Visionary Collaborators on Patreon!  
Thank you to Flintwick for the music! 

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Divergent States and MAPS
02:47 Rick Doblin's Journey and the Founding of MAPS
10:03 The Messianic Idea and Psychedelics
18:54 Psychedelics as Tools for Healing
19:00 Educating the Next Generation about Psychedelics
25:00 The Role of Psychedelics in Addressing Global Trauma
30:09 Psychedelics and the Future of Humanity
33:31 Revitalizing Spirituality and Cultural Contexts
34:45 Psychedelics and Responsible Use
36:11 Modern Rites of Passage through Music
37:57 Harm Reduction and Support at Festivals
39:19 Psychedelic Science 2025 Conference
41:35 Community and Collaboration in Psychedelic Research
43:42 Reflections on Policy and Progress
45:42 Navigating Politics and Science
49:35 Globalizing Access to Psychedelic Therapies
52:42 The Importance of Divergent Perspectives

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Joshua White – Holding the Line: Fireside, Crisis Support & Conscious Integration12 Jan 202500:44:15

In this episode of Divergent States, we talk with Joshua White, founder and executive director of the Fireside Project, a nonprofit creating a revolutionary model of psychedelic support through free, real-time emotional care and integration coaching.

What happens when someone takes too much LSD and needs someone to talk to—right now? What if someone is trying to process an ayahuasca ceremony months later, but feels disconnected or judged in traditional therapy settings? Fireside Project offers a lifeline—through voice, text, and now coaching—for people navigating the psychological highs, lows, and revelations that come with non-ordinary states.

Topics we explore:

  • Joshua’s journey from attorney to psychedelic peer support pioneer
  • The fusion of festival harm reduction (Zendo Project) and therapeutic models
  • The challenges and beauty of being vulnerable on psychedelics
  • Why peer support is not about fixing the trip—but honoring it
  • Fireside’s efforts to center marginalized voices and create culturally attuned care
  • The importance of long-term integration, not just “bad trip” triage
  • The launch of Fireside’s certified coaching program: preparation, integration, and affordable access to trained support
  • Training 600+ volunteers and building a new generation of psychedelic-informed supporters
  • The hard truth about fundraising and outreach in the psychedelic nonprofit space
  • How to get involved, support, or train with Fireside

We also discuss the deeper existential questions around psychedelics: Why do humans have the capacity for these experiences in the first place? What does it mean to embrace anxiety, rather than suppress it? And how do we build a post-prohibition world rooted in compassion, not commercialization?

Whether you’re preparing for your first journey, working through a past one, or just curious about what a post-psychedelic-care model could look like, this conversation offers a grounded, humble, and hopeful roadmap.

🔗 Learn more or volunteer: firesideproject.org
📱 Download the Fireside app (iOS & Android): Just two buttons—Call or Text.
💬 Support the show: patreon.com/divergentstates
🎧 Music by Flintwick

00:12 – Intro & Fireside Project Overview
02:33 – Joshua’s Journey: From Law to Psychedelics
08:37 – The Four Problems in the Psychedelic Field
12:12 – What a Fireside Support Call Is Like
14:08 – Anxiety, Acceptance, and “The Obstacle Is the Path”
17:32 – Who’s on the Other End of the Line?
20:45 – Volunteer Training & Community Structure
22:46 – Fireside’s Harm Reduction Impact
24:56 – Culturally Attuned Support & Identity-Based Care
26:56 – Fireside’s Biggest Challenge: Fundraising
31:04 – The Fireside Coaching Program Explained
32:45 – First-Time Users & Psychedelic Prep
35:17 – The Fireside App for Trippers
38:01 – Final Thoughts, Get Involved

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Hamilton Morris: r/Psychonaut and the DEA24 Dec 202401:21:57

Hamilton Morris joins Divergent States to unpack a bizarre twist in the drug war: the DEA is using Reddit posts and trip reports as courtroom “evidence.”

What happens when harm-reduction advice and half-baked comments are weaponized to criminalize psychedelics? And how do communities like r/Psychonaut survive in that climate?

In this wide-ranging conversation, we cut through hype and paranoia to tackle the future of psychedelic research, regulation, and responsibility.

We dig into the ethical tightrope between transparency and safety, the flawed logic of prohibition, and why silence isn’t a sustainable strategy. Hamilton breaks down his firsthand experience attending the DOI scheduling hearing, his efforts to build a scientifically vetted user-report journal, and how communities like r/Psychonaut are caught in the crosshairs of policy and paranoia.

Whether you’re a seasoned psychonaut or just exploring the space, this episode cuts through the hype and hysteria to ask the real questions: How do we speak honestly about altered states in a world that punishes honesty?

Topics include:
• The DEA’s use of Reddit as courtroom “evidence”
• Why trip reports matter and how they’re being misused
• The dangers of pharmacological elitism and spiritual gatekeeping
• The real meaning of harm reduction in an outlaw culture
• The future of psychedelic research, regulation, and responsibility

🎶 Featuring music by Flintwick | Support us on Patreon for exclusive episodes & bonus content.
 💬 Reddit: r/Psychonaut | IG: @divergentstates | #SetSettingGuide

 Chapters 

00:00 Introduction and Context of the Episode 
02:50 The Importance of Transparency in Psychedelic Discussions 
06:04 Balancing Honesty and Safety in Sharing Experiences 
10:33 Community Responsibility and the Impact of Online Discourse 
15:54 The Role of Advocacy and Legal Support in Drug Policy Reform 
20:08 Navigating the Challenges of Scientific Research and Public Perception
 24:08 The Importance of Evidence in Psychedelic Communities 
29:20 Navigating the Wild West of Online Drug Discussions 
31:06 Spirituality vs. Scientific Analysis in Psychedelics 
34:00 The Dangers of Pharmacological Elitism 
37:04 Addressing the Fentanyl Crisis: A Call for Rational Drug Policy 
44:06 The Future of Psychedelic Therapy and Accessibility 
48:28 Integrating Cannabis into Society 
50:13 Destigmatization and Education on Psychedelics 
52:39 The Hype and Risks of Psychedelics 
56:43 Understanding Challenging Experiences with Psychedelics 
01:01:45 Cumulative Impact of Substance Use 
01:07:34 Bringing Psychedelics into the Open 

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Psychedelics at the Crossroads: Medicine, Politics, and Culture Wars10 Sep 202500:37:45

History shows politics can make or break psychedelic medicine, will we repeat the 1960s backlash, or finally move forward? 

In this episode of Divergent States, we explore the uneasy intersection of psychedelics and politics. MDMA remains a Schedule I drug—classified as dangerous with no medical use—while at the same time advancing through FDA Phase III trials. This contradiction highlights the limbo psychedelics face today: criminalized on one side, medicalized on the other.

We revisit the lessons of the 1960s, when political backlash ended promising psychedelic research for decades, and compare them to today’s fast-changing landscape. With figures like Robert F. Kennedy Jr. championing psychedelic medicine, the risk of partisan branding looms large. Can the psychedelic renaissance avoid being reduced to culture war ammunition?

From Oregon and Colorado’s legalization models to global perspectives like Australia’s, we unpack the fragile future of access, safety, and legitimacy. And we emphasize why independent media, grassroots communities, and diverse voices are essential to keeping psychedelics rooted in healing rather than political agendas.

🔑 Key Points

  • Psychedelics remain Schedule I but are simultaneously advancing toward FDA approval.
  • The 1960s crackdown shows the danger of entanglement with politics and culture wars.
  • Public opinion has shifted rapidly, with mainstream endorsements from figures like Oprah and Michael Pollan.
  • Risks of polarizing association (e.g., RFK Jr.) could trigger backlash despite strong science.
  • Oregon’s tightly regulated model vs. Colorado’s more open system—pros, cons, and accessibility challenges.
  • Potential for a two-tiered system: expensive legal clinics vs. criminalized underground use.
  • Independent media and grassroots communities play a key role in shaping the narrative.
  • Psychedelics could follow three futures: medicalized/corporate, grassroots/underground, or partisan football.
  • Safety concerns are emerging with unregulated “gas station mushrooms” and microdose products.
  • Global models like Australia’s nationwide legalization offer lessons for the U.S. path ahead.

Chapters

00:00 – The Psychedelic Contradiction
MDMA is Schedule I and in FDA Phase III trials — the legal/medical limbo.

02:00 – Why Politics Are Dangerous
Why Divergent States avoids partisan debates, and how culture wars derail progress.

06:30 – Lessons from the 1960s
How Timothy Leary, Nixon, and the War on Drugs shut down decades of psychedelic science.

09:45 – The Risk of Polarization
RFK Jr., vaccines, and how associating psychedelics with a single figure fuels backlash.

15:00 – Fragile Legitimacy
Medical, cultural, and political legitimacy — and how easily it can collapse.

20:20 – Can Psychedelics Unite Us?
Hope for bipartisan support, parallels with cannabis legalization.

24:00 – Global Models & Access
Oregon vs. Colorado, Australia’s legalization, and fears of a two-tiered system.

27:30 – Grassroots vs. Corporate Paths
Safety concerns with “gas station mushrooms,” microdosing hype, and corporate oversight.

31:00 – Pop Culture & Microdosing
South Park satire, normali

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Dr Rick Strassman - My Altered States11 Dec 202400:51:01

What happens when psychedelic research, spiritual inquiry, and neurodivergence converge? In this premiere episode of Divergent States, we sit down with Dr. Rick Strassman, the groundbreaking researcher behind DMT: The Spirit Molecule, to explore the boundaries of consciousness, therapy, and identity.

Host 3L1T3, an autistic psychonaut and longtime community curator, shares his personal journey through psychedelics, the inner wiring of a neurodivergent mind, and why the search for meaning matters. Together with co-host Bryan, the conversation takes unexpected turns: from early DMT studies and pineal gland theories, to the dangers of spiritual bypassing, to the ways autism can shape (and sharpen) visionary experience.

🧠 Topics Include:

  • The hidden cost of spiritual highs
  • Why Strassman stepped away from psychedelics
  • Autistic pattern recognition and altered states
  • DMT beings: projection or perception?
  • How mainstream psychology misunderstands the trip

Whether you're deep into the psychedelic space or just starting to question consensus reality — this one's for the explorers. Get ready to think differently.


We talk about upcoming guests, give some acknowledgements and shout-outs, and we talk a little about the interview. The music comes from Dyalien on reddit.



Music by Dylalien

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Compass Pathways: Independent Media Talks Psychedelic Medicine22 Aug 202500:38:41

In this episode of Divergent States, we sit down with Kabir Nath, CEO of Compass Pathways, and Dr. Steve Levine, Chief Patient Officer, to talk about the future of psychedelic medicine. From FDA approval and insurance coverage to patient access, cultural safety, and patents, we dig into whether Compass is truly disrupting the pharma model or just reinventing it.

We also share a major community update: the official Divergent States Discord is now open to all of r/Psychonaut. Built by Brady and the mod team, the server is a space for harm reduction, trip reports, deep dives, and authentic connection across the psychedelic movement.

As always, this conversation is about asking the real questions without corporate PR filters. What Compass shared — and what they left unsaid — reveals as much about the future of psilocybin therapy as the answers themselves.

👉 Join the movement: connect on Discord, support independent media on Patreon, and be part of the conversation. 

https://discord.gg/swPwT6ZYun

Key Points

  • FDA approval: path to affordability or illusion of access?
  • COM360 psilocybin therapy: synthetic model, patient journey, and therapy debate
  • Access & equity: insurance hurdles, pricing models, and patient foundations
  • Cultural safety: trauma-informed design, marginalized populations, indigenous roots
  • Patents & Pharma tension: innovation vs. corporate control in psychedelic medicine
  • Community news: Divergent States Discord officially launches for r/Psychonaut

Chapters

 00:00 – Intro: Setting the frame for Compass Pathways
 01:30 – Community Update: Divergent States Discord opens for r/Psychonaut
 09:30 – Guest Intros: Kabir Nath & Dr. Steve Levine of Compass Pathways
 11:20 – Kabir on moving from pharma to psychedelics
 12:30 – Steve on ketamine clinics & new models of care
 14:15 – What “success” looks like for patients
 16:00 – COM360 psilocybin therapy: synthetic vs. natural & the role of therapy
 17:30 – How Compass plans to deliver psilocybin in different care settings
 18:40 – Patient hopes, fears, and the path to access
 20:00 – FDA approval, insurance, and affordability
 21:00 – Cultural safety, trauma-informed design, and community input
 21:45 – Indigenous engagement & staying “in their lane”
 24:15 – The next 5–10 years of psychedelic treatment
 26:10 – What could derail psychedelic medicine’s promise
 28:10 – Compass’ place in the broader psychedelic ecosystem
 29:50 – Outro: Independent media reflections & listener call to action 

New Music from Sndbagz - check out his new EP "Chosen Path" on Soundcloud and Spotify

https://open.spotify.com/artist/0T1LU2nJ9ibGIU3Bxin2X6
https://soundcloud.com/user-918755844

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Paul F. Austin: Mastering Microdosing and Unlocking Human Potential07 Aug 202501:09:31

In this episode of Divergent States, host 3L1T3 and co-host Bryan sit down with Paul F. Austin, founder of The Third Wave and the Psychedelic Coaching Institute.

We dive deep into microdosing psychedelics, intentional use for peak performance, and the rise of psychedelic coaching as a professional path. Paul shares insights from his book Mastering Microdosing, his vision for conscious entrepreneurship, and how psychedelics are reshaping the way we think about healing, creativity, and human potential.

If you’re curious about LSD or psilocybin microdosing, psychedelic integration, or building a career in the psychedelic space, this episode is packed with actionable takeaways and inspiring perspectives.

🔑 Key Topics & Takeaways:

  • How Paul F. Austin became a pioneer in the psychedelic space
  • The science and practice of microdosing for focus and creativity
  • Why psychedelic coaching is the next frontier in mental health and personal growth
  • Entrepreneurship and psychedelics: Lessons from building The Third Wave
  • Best practices for safe, intentional psychedelic use
  • Where the psychedelic movement is headed in the next 5–10 years

⏱️ Chapters:
0:00 – Welcome to Divergent States with 3L1T3 & Bryan
2:15 – Introducing Paul F. Austin & The Third Wave
5:30 – How Paul discovered psychedelics and microdosing
10:42 – The benefits of microdosing for focus, creativity & emotional balance
18:20 – Psychedelic coaching: What it is and why it’s growing
27:55 – Lessons from building The Third Wave & conscious entrepreneurship
36:10 – Integration, safety, and intentional psychedelic use
44:15 – The future of psychedelics, careers, and community
52:30 – Closing thoughts & how to connect with Paul

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Amber Capone: The Psychedelics Saving Veterans from PTSD23 Jul 202501:16:36

Amber Capone, co-founder and CEO of Veterans Exploring Treatment Solutions (VETS), shares the powerful story of how psychedelic therapy - starting with Ibogaine - helped her husband, Navy SEAL Marcus Capone, recover from PTSD and TBI when traditional care failed.

We dive into the science and controversy behind Ibogaine, the limits of VA mental health care, and how VETS is paving the way for safe access to psychedelics like MDMA, psilocybin, and ketamine for veterans in need.

Key Points:

  • Amber’s leap from military spouse to CEO of VETS
  • Ibogaine’s transformative potential for PTSD and TBI
  • Risks and rewards of seeking psychedelic treatment abroad
  • Bipartisan momentum behind veteran psychedelic initiatives
  • Why careful vetting, integration, and support are critical

🎧 Listen to hear how psychedelics are changing lives—and the future of trauma care.

Chapter Markers:

  • 00:00 – Introduction & why Amber’s story matters
  • 05:56 – What was happening behind the scenes at home
  • 07:57 – The struggle after service: Marcus’ decline
  • 10:59 – Turning point: discovering Ibogaine
  • 14:57 – What changed after treatment
  • 20:20 – Starting VETS to help other families
  • 25:06 – Not just Ibogaine: the expanded toolbox
  • 31:21 – Addressing TBI and polytrauma
  • 35:43 – The importance of screening, context, and preparation
  • 41:46 – VETS’ evolving role in advocacy and support
  • 45:16 – Bipartisan support and shifting cultural norms
  • 51:54 – What “success” really means for healing veterans
  • 57:57 – Where to learn more and get involved

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William Leonard Pickard - The Acid King, the Rose, and the Return04 Jul 202500:52:24

What happens when the most hunted man in psychedelic history walks free and joins us for a conversation?

In this deeply reflective episode of Divergent States, I sit down with William Leonard Pickard: chemist, philosopher, author of The Rose of Paracelsus, and the man once called the “Acid King.” After decades behind bars, Pickard returns with revelations about time, memory, suffering, redemption, and the spiritual cost of psychedelic pursuit.

We discuss the rise and fall of the most infamous LSD lab in history, Pickard's views on Ibogaine and modern psychedelic commercialization, and how prison reshaped his consciousness. He speaks of literature, inner stillness, shadow organizations, and the unfathomable lessons buried in the folds of silence.

A mythic guest, a poetic mind, and perhaps the most important voice in the psychedelic space today.

🔑 Key Takeaways:

  • The "Acid King" Speaks: For the first time in-depth post-release, Leonard Pickard reflects on his time at the center of what authorities called the largest LSD operation in history, and what he believes was really happening behind the scenes.
  • Prison as a Psychedelic Experience: Pickard describes incarceration not as a void, but as a radically altered state, where time dilates, silence becomes sacred, and the mind either breaks or transcends.
  • Ibogaine, Compassion, and the Future: He voices strong views on the therapeutic use of Ibogaine, its dangers when misused, and its misunderstood spiritual potential.
  • The Rose of Paracelsus as Code: More than a memoir, Pickard hints that The Rose is layered with veiled truths and archetypes meant for those “with ears to hear”, especially those seeking refuge from commercialized psychedelia.
  • The Invisible Networks: He suggests there are forces: academic, clandestine, spiritual, that have shaped and continue to shape psychedelic culture in ways the mainstream never sees.
  • Redemption Through Stillness: Pickard doesn't romanticize his past. Instead, he presents a philosophy of quiet redemption, where introspection, myth, and suffering converge into what he calls “the sacred cost.”
  • Warnings to the Psychedelic Industry: He offers a cautionary tale to today’s entrepreneurs and enthusiasts: be wary of glamorizing chemical mysticism, and remember that true wisdom comes not from flash, but from depth.

00:00 – Introduction: The Acid King Returns

3:06 – From Secrecy to Spotlight

06:00 – Psychedelic Culture: Then and Now

10:53 – Ibogaine and Healing Work

12:44 – On Commercialization and Ceremony

16:46 – What About the Sacred?

19:46 – Medicalization vs. Freedom

24:53 – What They Never Ask

26:22 – Second Life Reflections

33:16 – What Prison Taught Me

38:15 – Ergot Wine and LSD Myths

43:01 – Machine Elves and Other Planes

44:13 – Star Trek and the Pickard Rumor

45:07 – Outro and Patreon Preview

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Dr. Anne Wagner on Relational Healing - MDMA, PTSD, and the Power of Two23 Jun 202501:03:47

What if healing didn’t have to be a solo journey?

In this episode of Divergent States, host 3L1T3 sits down with Dr. Anne Wagner, clinical psychologist, researcher, and founder of the Remedy Centre in Toronto, to explore how MDMA-assisted psychotherapy is transforming PTSD treatment by working with couples, not just individuals. From groundbreaking clinical trials to the lived reality of dyadic integration, Anne shares what she’s learning at the cutting edge of relational healing.

This conversation goes deep: into trauma, intimacy, conflict, neurodivergence, and how thinking "psychedelically" may just change everything, even outside the medicine space.

🎧 Plus: updates from Psychedelic Science 2025, upcoming guests like Leonard Pickard and Reggie Watts, and why the future of therapy might come in pairs.

🔑 Key Takeaways:

  • Couples Therapy with MDMA is groundbreaking: 5 of 6 couples in the pilot no longer met PTSD criteria.
  • Dyadic healing is multidimensional: it's not just about one partner’s trauma but transforming the relationship itself.
  • Integration as a couple is complex, but powerful: shared experiences provide a unique scaffolding for long-term growth.
  • CPT + MDMA shows promise: combining established PTSD therapies with psychedelic medicine could reshape treatment models.
  • Ethical training is non-negotiable: Anne cautions against unqualified practitioners marketing “psychedelic couples therapy.”
  • Neurodivergence and CPTSD are viable focuses: MDMA appears uniquely helpful for communication and emotional access.

⏱️ Chapters:

00:00 – Intro & Conference Check-In
 04:22 – Meet Dr. Anne Wagner
 04:38 – Misunderstandings About MDMA Therapy
 07:13 – Empathy and Connection on MDMA
 09:05 – Pilot Study Results from MDMA + CBCT
 14:08 – Unexpected Dyadic Challenges
 16:31 – Why Couples Therapy vs Solo MDMA Work
 20:09 – Shifting Toward CPT + MDMA
 24:18 – Preview of Anne’s Panels at PS25
 28:57 – Defining Integration for Couples
 32:35 – Will Dyadic Integration Become Its Own Field?
 34:52 – Power Dynamics, Communication & Conflict on MDMA
 37:22 – MDMA, Neurodivergence, and CPTSD
 40:38 – Future of MDMA in General Relationship Work
 42:13 – Ethical Guardrails for Psychedelic Couples Therapy
 44:50 – Risks of Untrained Psychedelic Facilitators
 45:44 – Training Models for Dyadic Psychedelic Therapists
 47:20 – Access, Regulation & Stigma Barriers
 49:20 – Anne’s Origin Story: Psychedelics, Trauma & Relationships
 51:23 – Most Unexpected Lesson from the Work
 53:09 – How to Connect with Remedy Centre
 54:02 – Final Thoughts & Psychedelic Science Plans
 59:09 – Outro: PTSD Breakthroughs & Upcoming Guests

Music by Flintwick

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Kyrsten Sinema on Psychedelics, Policy, and Veterans: Inside the New Bipartisan Movement13 Jun 202500:33:37

In this exclusive interview, former U.S. Senator Kyrsten Sinema joins Divergent States to discuss the future of psychedelic medicine in American healthcare. From Ibogaine and PTSD to policy reform and bipartisan collaboration, Sinema opens up about her firsthand exposure to the healing potential of psychedelics through veterans' experiences - and why the time to act is now.

We explore how veterans are pushing the policy frontier, what FDA and CMS approval would mean, and why even critics of the current political landscape may want to support this shift.

Whether you're skeptical of government or hopeful for reform, this conversation tackles the friction between institutions and innovation—and why psychedelics might be the most disruptive medicine in a generation.

👉 Don’t forget to subscribe, share, and join the conversation

🔑 Key Topics & Takeaways:

  • Sinema’s introduction to psychedelics through Ibogaine and a veteran’s recovery story
  • The bipartisan support behind psychedelic research and its surprising origins
  • Why psychedelic medicine challenges the pharmaceutical business model
  • The risks of corporate monopolization and how small biotech firms can resist buyouts
  • The path to FDA and CMS approval for Ibogaine, MDMA, and psilocybin
  • Why the Trump administration’s staffing of “disruptors” may accelerate reform
  • Access, affordability, and insurance coverage: what’s next
  • Her vision for psychedelic medicine by 2030

⏱️ Chapters:

00:00 – Intro: Politics, Power, and Psychedelics
 01:41 – Why Interview Sinema? Pushback & Intentions
 02:21 – First Sponsor Tease & PS25 Plans
 03:56 – Sinema Joins the Interview
 04:18 – How Ibogaine Changed Her Perspective
 06:49 – Senate Colleagues' Reactions
 07:44 – Policy Progress & Bipartisan Allies
 09:43 – Pharma Capture & Psychedelic Industry Risks
 12:02 – Can Psychedelics Avoid Biotech Monopoly?
 13:40 – Cost, Access, and Equity Concerns
 14:44 – Ensuring Access for the Most Vulnerable
 15:56 – State vs. Federal Models
 17:00 – Federal Role in Decriminalization & Reform
 17:20 – Regrets or Missed Legislative Opportunities?
 18:43 – Sinema’s Continued Involvement
 20:06 – Political Alignment vs. Policy Goals
 20:17 – Restoring Trust in Institutions
 21:55 – Five-Year Outlook for Psychedelic Medicine
 23:10 – Final Reflections & Outro
 23:41 – Bonus: Sinema on Psychedelic Science 2025 Panels
 25:17 – Collaboration with VETS Foundation
 25:53 – Closing Thanks & Conference Plans
 28:49 – Outro Recap & Reflections
 31:19 – Sponsors, Shulgin Legacy, and Fireside Project
 32:10 – Next Episode Tease: Dr. Anne Wagner

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Kevin Cranford – Behind the Curtain at MAPS: Culture, Communication & Controversy23 May 202500:51:28

This week, we sit down with Kevin Cranford, Communications Officer at MAPS (Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies), to talk about the upcoming Psychedelic Science 2025 conference — what’s new, what’s different, and why it’s shaping up to be more than just another gathering. From navigating hype vs. science to MAPS’ comms strategy, Kevin shares how the org is threading the needle between community storytelling, rigorous research, and avoiding another "Wellness Industrial Complex" meltdown.

We dig into questions around affordability, integration, cross-aisle politics, harm reduction, and even Oprah's looming presence. It's a candid, funny, and thoughtful look at where the movement is headed — and how not to lose the soul of psychedelics in the process.

Also in this episode: Rainbow Gatherings, EDM afterparties, psychedelic pickup lines, and how to make ketamine uncool.

Key Takeaways

  • MAPS is prioritizing integration over size for PS25, aiming for intentional connections rather than sheer numbers.
  • The future of psychedelics lies in dialogue, not dogma — MAPS welcomes skeptics, clinicians, artists, and policy-makers under the same roof.
  • Storytelling beats data alone — personal narratives help bring complex psychedelic science to wider audiences.
  • MAPS consciously avoids hype by deferring to the science and resisting exaggerated claims.
  • Access and affordability are still big questions — MAPS is actively seeking insurance and donation pathways to reduce sticker shock for marginalized communities.
  • There’s tension in the movement between spiritual influencers and clinical research — and MAPS isn’t shying away from those debates.
  • The goal is to make psychedelics boring. That’s how you mainstream a revolution.

 Chapter Markers

00:00 Introduction and Conference Overview
03:14 Psychedelic Science 2025: A Cultural Gathering
06:05 Target Audience and Conference Experience
09:01 Balancing Science and Experience
11:56 Community Dynamics and Open Dialogue
14:56 Storytelling in Psychedelic Advocacy
18:04 Addressing Criticism and Ensuring Access
20:55 Future of Psychedelic Research and Regulation
27:25 Curating Online Communities for Quality Engagement
29:03 Learning from Past Mistakes in Psychedelic Movements
30:40 Bridging Political Divides in Psychedelic Advocacy
31:52 The Importance of Personal Stories in Psychedelic Healing
33:44 Exploring the Deep Space Experience at PS25
35:07 Innovative Ideas for Future Psychedelic Conferences
36:53 The Impact of Celebrity Endorsements on Psychedelic Culture
39:52 Making Psychedelics Boring for Future Generations
40:29 Reflections on the Psychedelic Community and Its Growth

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David Bronner: Soap, Psychedelics, and the All One Ethos22 Oct 202501:16:54

Dr. Bronner’s Cosmic Engagement Officer David Bronner joins Divergent States for a candid, nuts-and-bolts conversation about building an “All One” company culture, pushing for psychedelic policy reform, and rewiring global supply chains to be fair, transparent, and regenerative. We trace the lineage from Rainbow Gatherings to Burning Man, from hemp activism to MAPS, and from commodity brokers to farmer-first vertical integration. Co-host therapist Valerie Beltran helps press on the tradeoffs: regulated access versus decriminalization, mission versus financing, growth versus grassroots.

Key points

  • The “All One God Faith” DNA, salary caps (5× lowest vested wage), and why profit is a means, not the mission.
  • Why Dr. Bronner’s backed hemp early, fought DEA roadblocks, and supported MAPS, Oregon’s Measure 110, DC decrim, and church-based access models.
  • Regulated access vs. decriminalization: complementary pathways; cost, community, and safety implications.
  • Purpose-aligned financing: why many mission brands drift, and how the emerging Purpose Pledge aims to solve it.
  • Sourcing as activism: Ghana palm grown in multi-strata agroforestry; olive oil partnerships across Palestinian and Israeli producers; farmer income and soil health as first principles.
  • Regenerative Organic Certification: weaving soil health, animal welfare, and fair labor into one consumer standard.
  • Cultural lineage: Zendo/sanctuary work, AA’s Bill Wilson and LSD, Sacred Plant Alliance, and lessons from the Brotherhood of Eternal Love.
  • Pitfalls and PR landmines: navigating blame and lawsuits in a fast-shifting policy landscape.
  • Longevity over hype: why real soap beats detergents, and the quirky “punk rock soap opera” moment that proved it.
  • Practical integration: moving from unitive states to everyday choices—diet, sourcing, and local service.

If this conversation resonated, follow the show on Spotify/Apple, leave a short review, and consider supporting the work on Patreon to keep community-driven media independent.

Special thanks to Sandbgz for the music! Follow him on Spotify!

00:00 – Intro & Setup
02:00 – From Burning Man to the Mic
04:35 – Origins & Rainbow Gathering Roots
06:25 – The All One God Faith Legacy
10:25 – Sourcing as Activism
15:20 – Mission Financing & the Purpose Pledge
17:35 – Building Roots & Staying Grounded
22:30 – Why Risk Psychedelic Advocacy
28:30 – Early Activism & the Hemp Wars
33:00 – Meeting Rick Doblin at Burning Man
37:00 – Decrim, Churches & Community Access
39:15 – Pitfalls & Lawsuits
40:30 – Choosing Battles & Lessons from Oregon 110
42:45 – Integration & Regenerative Organic Agriculture
46:45 – From Vision to Action
51:55 – Balancing Perfection & Pragmatism
55:45 – Longevity over Hype
1:01:00 – Heaven on Earth & Deep Time
1:03:45 – Brotherhood of Eternal Love & Rainbow Bridge
1:08:30 – Closing Reflections
1:12:00 – Outro & Patreon Call to Action

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