In this episode of Divergent States, 3L1T3 sits down with Betty Aldworth, the new co-president of MAPS, as she steps into shared leadership with Ismail Ali following Rick Doblin’s four-decade run.

Betty brings decades of experience in drug policy reform, from Colorado’s 2012 cannabis legalization campaign to leading Students for Sensible Drug Policy, and now helps guide MAPS through one of the movement’s most pivotal moments: the FDA’s rejection of Lycos Therapeutics’ MDMA-assisted therapy application.

We unpack the tension between science and advocacy, urgency and rigor, and explore what real access means for people living with PTSD. Betty offers a candid, emotionally grounded look at the FDA’s critique, the role of stigma, and how MAPS plans to keep pushing forward through education, policy, and global research initiatives.

Later, the conversation turns to the larger movement: political support from both sides of the aisle, state-level reform models, and MAPS’ upcoming 40th anniversary in 2026.

Key Points

• Betty’s path from SSDP to co-president of MAPS
• The FDA’s rejection of MDMA-assisted therapy: what it really means
• How “positive adverse events” became a sticking point in the FDA review
• Durability of treatment effects and the debate over long-term data
• Balancing activism, science, and education under MAPS’ new leadership model
• The growing divide between regulatory caution and patient urgency
• Grassroots and state-level psychedelic reform gaining ground
• The stigma that still shadows MDMA despite decades of data
• Harm-reduction advice for those seeking underground healing
• What’s ahead for MAPS’ 40th anniversary and new research directions

⏱ Chapter Markers

00:00 – Intro — Bryan’s stage play, today’s guest: Betty Aldworth
02:00 – MAPS’ new leadership and legacy after Rick Doblin
05:00 – Betty on stepping into the role and the three MAPS pillars
08:00 – From activism to leadership — lessons from SSDP
11:45 – Balancing research, advocacy, and education
14:00 – FDA rejection letter — what really happened
16:00 – “Positive adverse events” and the question of abuse potential
22:30 – Durability of treatment and COVID-era data gaps
26:30 – Prior MDMA experience and bias — myth or factor?
29:20 – Politics, science, and the credibility dilemma
32:30 – RFK Jr., AOC, and politicization of psychedelics
35:00 – Echoes of the 1980s scheduling fight
36:20 – What comes next — Phase III, audits, and resilience
38:30 – MAPS’ evolving research priorities & global work
41:00 – Normalization, decriminalization, and stigma
43:45 – Science vs activism — carrying both forward
48:00 – State-level reform and slow federal process
50:30 – Cannabis rescheduling and broader reform
52:00 – A message to people living with PTSD
55:00 – MAPS’ 40th anniversary — what’s ahead
57:00 – Closing reflections — stay weird, keep exploring

Thanks to Dyl👽Alien for the music!

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The next course is a weekend intensive and will take place on June 6th and 7th from 8am-2:30pm PT. This is a great opportunity for professionals and European students to participate in our live training at a more accessible time.  

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Dr. Bronner’s Cosmic Engagement Officer David Bronner joins Divergent States for a candid, nuts-and-bolts conversation about building an “All One” company culture, pushing for psychedelic policy reform, and rewiring global supply chains to be fair, transparent, and regenerative. We trace the lineage from Rainbow Gatherings to Burning Man, from hemp activism to MAPS, and from commodity brokers to farmer-first vertical integration. Co-host therapist Valerie Beltran helps press on the tradeoffs: regulated access versus decriminalization, mission versus financing, growth versus grassroots.

Key points

• The “All One God Faith” DNA, salary caps (5× lowest vested wage), and why profit is a means, not the mission.
• Why Dr. Bronner’s backed hemp early, fought DEA roadblocks, and supported MAPS, Oregon’s Measure 110, DC decrim, and church-based access models.
• Regulated access vs. decriminalization: complementary pathways; cost, community, and safety implications.
• Purpose-aligned financing: why many mission brands drift, and how the emerging Purpose Pledge aims to solve it.
• Sourcing as activism: Ghana palm grown in multi-strata agroforestry; olive oil partnerships across Palestinian and Israeli producers; farmer income and soil health as first principles.
• Regenerative Organic Certification: weaving soil health, animal welfare, and fair labor into one consumer standard.
• Cultural lineage: Zendo/sanctuary work, AA’s Bill Wilson and LSD, Sacred Plant Alliance, and lessons from the Brotherhood of Eternal Love.
• Pitfalls and PR landmines: navigating blame and lawsuits in a fast-shifting policy landscape.
• Longevity over hype: why real soap beats detergents, and the quirky “punk rock soap opera” moment that proved it.
• Practical integration: moving from unitive states to everyday choices—diet, sourcing, and local service.

If this conversation resonated, follow the show on Spotify/Apple, leave a short review, and consider supporting the work on Patreon to keep community-driven media independent.

Special thanks to Sandbgz for the music! Follow him on Spotify!

00:00 – Intro & Setup
02:00 – From Burning Man to the Mic
04:35 – Origins & Rainbow Gathering Roots
06:25 – The All One God Faith Legacy
10:25 – Sourcing as Activism
15:20 – Mission Financing & the Purpose Pledge
17:35 – Building Roots & Staying Grounded
22:30 – Why Risk Psychedelic Advocacy
28:30 – Early Activism & the Hemp Wars
33:00 – Meeting Rick Doblin at Burning Man
37:00 – Decrim, Churches & Community Access
39:15 – Pitfalls & Lawsuits
40:30 – Choosing Battles & Lessons from Oregon 110
42:45 – Integration & Regenerative Organic Agriculture
46:45 – From Vision to Action
51:55 – Balancing Perfection & Pragmatism
55:45 – Longevity over Hype
1:01:00 – Heaven on Earth & Deep Time
1:03:45 – Brotherhood of Eternal Love & Rainbow Bridge
1:08:30 – Closing Reflections
1:12:00 – Outro & Patreon Call to Action

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A former U.S. Senator says the federal government is preparing to fast-track psychedelic medicines, especially for veterans with TBI, PTSD, addiction, and treatment-resistant depression.

In this conversation, Kyrsten Sinema explains why the current administration is unusually aligned behind plant-based therapies, how Ibogaine and MDMA could move through the FDA faster than expected, and why small researchers, not Big Pharma, may end up shaping the field.

We dig into:

• Ibogaine’s impact on Special Forces veterans
• Why bipartisan support is real and why it’s strange
• What “FDA fast-track” actually means
• The fight to secure Medicaid/Medicare + VA coverage
• How cost + access could shift once CMS approves care
• The threat of large companies burying breakthroughs
• Why trauma + TBI may define the next decade of medicine

Sinema isn’t claiming everything is solved.

She argues there’s a rare window — and it could close.

Whether you’re hopeful or skeptical, you’ll walk away with a clearer view of the policy machinery behind psychedelic medicine.

⏱️ Chapters:

00:00 – Intro: Politics, Power, and Psychedelics
 01:41 – Why Interview Sinema? Pushback & Intentions
 02:21 – First Sponsor Tease & PS25 Plans
 03:56 – Sinema Joins the Interview
 04:18 – How Ibogaine Changed Her Perspective
 06:49 – Senate Colleagues' Reactions
 07:44 – Policy Progress & Bipartisan Allies
 09:43 – Pharma Capture & Psychedelic Industry Risks
 12:02 – Can Psychedelics Avoid Biotech Monopoly?
 13:40 – Cost, Access, and Equity Concerns
 14:44 – Ensuring Access for the Most Vulnerable
 15:56 – State vs. Federal Models
 17:00 – Federal Role in Decriminalization & Reform
 17:20 – Regrets or Missed Legislative Opportunities?
 18:43 – Sinema’s Continued Involvement
 20:06 – Political Alignment vs. Policy Goals
 20:17 – Restoring Trust in Institutions
 21:55 – Five-Year Outlook for Psychedelic Medicine
 23:10 – Final Reflections & Outro
 23:41 – Bonus: Sinema on Psychedelic Science 2025 Panels
 25:17 – Collaboration with VETS Foundation
 25:53 – Closing Thanks & Conference Plans
 28:49 – Outro Recap & Reflections
 31:19 – Sponsors, Shulgin Legacy, and Fireside Project
 32:10 – Next Episode Tease: Dr. Anne Wagner

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The next course is a weekend intensive and will take place on June 6th and 7th from 8am-2:30pm PT. This is a great opportunity for professionals and European students to participate in our live training at a more accessible time.  

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This week, we sit down with Kevin Cranford, Communications Officer at MAPS (Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies), to talk about the upcoming Psychedelic Science 2025 conference — what’s new, what’s different, and why it’s shaping up to be more than just another gathering. From navigating hype vs. science to MAPS’ comms strategy, Kevin shares how the org is threading the needle between community storytelling, rigorous research, and avoiding another "Wellness Industrial Complex" meltdown.

We dig into questions around affordability, integration, cross-aisle politics, harm reduction, and even Oprah's looming presence. It's a candid, funny, and thoughtful look at where the movement is headed — and how not to lose the soul of psychedelics in the process.

Also in this episode: Rainbow Gatherings, EDM afterparties, psychedelic pickup lines, and how to make ketamine uncool.

Key Takeaways

• MAPS is prioritizing integration over size for PS25, aiming for intentional connections rather than sheer numbers.
• The future of psychedelics lies in dialogue, not dogma — MAPS welcomes skeptics, clinicians, artists, and policy-makers under the same roof.
• Storytelling beats data alone — personal narratives help bring complex psychedelic science to wider audiences.
• MAPS consciously avoids hype by deferring to the science and resisting exaggerated claims.
• Access and affordability are still big questions — MAPS is actively seeking insurance and donation pathways to reduce sticker shock for marginalized communities.
• There’s tension in the movement between spiritual influencers and clinical research — and MAPS isn’t shying away from those debates.
• The goal is to make psychedelics boring. That’s how you mainstream a revolution.

 Chapter Markers

00:00 Introduction and Conference Overview
03:14 Psychedelic Science 2025: A Cultural Gathering
06:05 Target Audience and Conference Experience
09:01 Balancing Science and Experience
11:56 Community Dynamics and Open Dialogue
14:56 Storytelling in Psychedelic Advocacy
18:04 Addressing Criticism and Ensuring Access
20:55 Future of Psychedelic Research and Regulation
27:25 Curating Online Communities for Quality Engagement
29:03 Learning from Past Mistakes in Psychedelic Movements
30:40 Bridging Political Divides in Psychedelic Advocacy
31:52 The Importance of Personal Stories in Psychedelic Healing
33:44 Exploring the Deep Space Experience at PS25
35:07 Innovative Ideas for Future Psychedelic Conferences
36:53 The Impact of Celebrity Endorsements on Psychedelic Culture
39:52 Making Psychedelics Boring for Future Generations
40:29 Reflections on the Psychedelic Community and Its Growth

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In this powerful new episode of Divergent States, your hosts 3L1T3 and Bryan sit down with Tom Feegel—CEO and Co-Founder of Beond, a pioneering Ibogaine clinic based in Mexico, to discuss the unfiltered realities of healing, addiction recovery, and the evolving landscape of psychedelic-assisted therapy.

Tom brings two decades of sobriety, a past life in global brand marketing, and deep experience navigating both the light and shadow of the psychedelic resurgence. This isn’t a conversation full of buzzwords: it’s a grounded, honest exploration of what actually helps people come back from the brink.

Together, we unpack what Ibogaine is, why it has a reputation for treating opioid addiction where other modalities fall short, and how the Beond model emphasizes safety, preparation, and integration over hype. Tom also shares stories from the frontlines: clients who arrive on death’s doorstep and walk away with not just sobriety, but a new story for themselves.

This episode dives into some hard but necessary questions:

•     Why do traditional Western rehab models have such a low success rate?
•     What does it mean to center human dignity in a treatment model?
•     How can clinics scale without becoming exploitative?
•     What role do communities like Reddit and independent media play in this movement?

Whether you're a harm reduction advocate, a skeptic, or just curious about where psychedelics are headed, this conversation challenges assumptions and offers a rare window into the operational and ethical complexities of real-world healing work.

Big thanks to our guest Tom Feegel for showing up with honesty, experience, and insight—and for the vital work he’s doing at Beond Ibogaine Clinic.
https://beondibogaine.com/
Appreciation to all our listeners, supporters, and community members who keep Divergent States growing with every episode.

Shoutout to our co-host Bryan for always bringing grounded, thoughtful perspective - and to you, for being part of this movement.

🎶 Music Credit

Original music by Dyl👽Alien - alien frequencies for earthbound minds.
Check out more of Dyl👽Alien’s work wherever interdimensional audio is transmitted.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Overview of the Podcast
03:10 Tom Fiegel's Personal Journey and the Founding of Beyond Ibogaine
18:40 The Role of Community and Support in Healing
22:29 Challenging the Stigma of Asking for Help
24:04 The Importance of Self-Forgiveness and Growth
28:31 Redefining Healing and the Role of Medicine
28:58 Healing Through Vision: Moving Beyond the Past
32:13 The Role of Ibogaine: A Natural Healing Tool
36:05 The Journey to Treatment: What to Expect
45:26 The Ibogaine Experience: A Transformative Process

Send us Fan Mail

The next course is a weekend intensive and will take place on June 6th and 7th from 8am-2:30pm PT. This is a great opportunity for professionals and European students to participate in our live training at a more accessible time.  

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What does it mean to be a responsible psychonaut?

In this episode of Divergent States, we sit down again with Valerie Beltran, licensed therapist, harm reduction expert, and educator with the Zendo Project, to unpack 7 core principles for navigating psychedelic states with intention, safety, and compassion.

We break down everything from testing your stash to dismantling your ego, and talk about how these powerful tools can help us grow: not just as individuals, but as a culture.

🔑 Topics we cover include:

• Harm reduction, substance testing, and staying safe
• What makes a psychonaut different from a recreational user
• Ego dissolution vs. ego inflation in the psychedelic space
• The beauty of Zendo-style peer support
• Psychedelic diversity, inclusion, and ethical use
• The soul quadrant: psychedelics as a call to community action
• Integration as an everyday spiritual practice
• Why set, setting, and intention still matter more than hype

Valerie brings grounded wisdom and therapeutic insight, while 3L1T3 and Bryan keep it real with stories, skepticism, and a few laughs about LSD philosophy, festival weirdness, and Rainbow drum circles.

🧠 This is a great starting point for new explorers and a reminder to seasoned trippers that we all need to check our egos at the door sometimes.

🎧 Music by Flintwick
 🪬 Support the show + get the bonus after-show with Valerie at patreon.com/divergentstates
🎤 Email: divergentstates@gmail.com

#Psychedelics #Psychonaut #Integration #ZendoProject #DivergentStates #PsychedelicTherapy #SetAndSetting #HarmReduction #MAPS #EgoDeath

00:00:00 - Introduction
00:00:18 - Valerie Beltran’s Background
00:01:37 - Updates from the Zendo Project
00:02:24 - Psychedelic Legalization News
00:03:35 - Psychedelic Science 25 Conference
00:05:19 - The Seven Psychonaut Principles
00:05:50 - Principle 1: Harm Reduction & Personal Safety
00:08:42 - Preparation (Set & Setting)
00:14:21 - Principle 2: Do No Harm to Others
00:16:07 - Principle 3: Community & Connection
00:21:36 - Principle 4: Diversity & Inclusion
00:25:59 - Principle 5: Ego Awareness
00:31:18 - Principle 6: Integration & Reflection
00:38:18 - Princliple 7: Advocacy & Social Justice
00:44:47 - Closing Remarks

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The next course is a weekend intensive and will take place on June 6th and 7th from 8am-2:30pm PT. This is a great opportunity for professionals and European students to participate in our live training at a more accessible time.  

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In this episode of Divergent States, we sit down with Alli Schaper, CEO of Supermush and co-founder of the Microdosing Collective, to explore the evolving world of functional and psychedelic mushrooms. Alli shares her journey into microdosing advocacy, the challenges of navigating the gray market for psychedelics, and the urgent push for policy reform to ensure safe, legal access.

We dive into the science behind microdosing, its profound benefits for mental health, creativity, and even athletic performance, and discuss why current regulations often overlook this powerful tool. Alli opens up about how psychedelics helped her family process grief and why storytelling is key to destigmatizing these substances. The conversation also highlights the risks of unregulated products (like gas station "shrooms"), the importance of community-driven advocacy, and the potential for cultural momentum to shape smarter policies.

With psychedelic mushrooms gaining mainstream attention, from wellness brands to underground markets, we ask: Are we "legalizing the whole bottle of wine before the sip"? Tune in for a thought-provoking discussion on the future of microdosing, the role of functional fungi in daily health, and how everyday individuals can help drive this movement forward.

Music by DylAlien.

Takeaways

• Mushrooms can have a profound impact on physical and mental health.
• Microdosing can help maintain mental health and prevent burnout.
• Psychedelics can be valuable tools for processing grief.
• There is a cultural gap in understanding and accepting death.
• Microdosing is often misunderstood and misrepresented in popular culture.
• Functional mushrooms offer various health benefits beyond nutrition.
• Community and intentional gatherings are essential for wellness.
• Advocacy for microdosing is crucial for policy changes.
• The definition of a microdose is often misinterpreted.
• The Microdosing Collective aims to represent and support microdosers. There is a need for a legal safe pathway for microdosing.
• Education and research are crucial for microdosing advocacy.
• Community involvement enhances the impact of policy reform.
• The psychedelic gray market poses risks and opportunities.

https://www.microdosingcollective.org/

https://supermush.com

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Psychedelic Science 25
02:53 Ali Schaper's Journey into Microdosing
06:08 Balancing Entrepreneurship and Advocacy
09:00 Personal Experiences with Grief and Psychedelics
12:01 The Intersection of Wellness and Mortality
15:05 Microdosing Collective and Its Goals
17:48 Functional Mushrooms vs. Psychedelic Microdosing
21:01 Benefits of Functional Mushrooms
23:57 Debunking Myths about Microdosing
28:45 Legal Pathways for Microdosing
30:12 Challenges in Microdosing Policy
32:05 Education and Community Engagement
34:52 The Role of Everyday Psychonauts
36:54 Understanding the Psychedelic Gray Market
39:47 Policy Adjustments for Safe Microdosing
41:25 Community-Driven Ethos in Regulation
43:01 Cultural Momentum and Storytelling
45:41 The Renaissance of Psychedelics
47:42 Collaborations and Community Initiatives
49:01 Supporting the Movement

Send us Fan Mail

The next course is a weekend intensive and will take place on June 6th and 7th from 8am-2:30pm PT. This is a great opportunity for professionals and European students to participate in our live training at a more accessible time.  

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In this deeply personal and eye-opening episode, we sit down with filmmaker JR Sawyers, the mind behind the indie psychedelic drama A Trip Elsewhere. What begins as a conversation about a film turns into a powerful exploration of transformation, healing, and consciousness.

JR opens up about the psychedelic retreat that changed his life, the emotional weight of isolation during the pandemic, and how he turned those experiences into cinematic storytelling. We dive into the emotional architecture of A Trip Elsewhere, the science and stigma of psychedelics, and how visuals can speak to the soul when words fall short.

From ego death to sacred geometry, from heartbreak to healing—this episode is as introspective and surreal as the film itself. Whether you’re curious about psychedelics, passionate about indie film, or just looking for a conversation with real heart, this one is not to be missed.

🎬 A Trip Elsewhere is streaming now on Amazon Prime, Tubi, Apple TV, and the Roku Channel.

Takeaways

• J.R. Sawyers is an independent filmmaker inspired by introspective films.
• His film explores the therapeutic effects of psychedelics.
• Sawyers experienced a transformative retreat that influenced his filmmaking.
• The film's visuals aim to capture the essence of psychedelic experiences.
• Character development reflects different emotional struggles and transformations.
• The future of psychedelics in therapy looks promising with increasing acceptance.
• Sawyers drew inspiration from various books and films to shape his narrative. Actors appreciated the character journeys in the film.
• Filmmaking was a way to relive the retreat experience.
• Setting and guidance are crucial for psychedelic experiences.
• Sawyers is working on a horror film about a possessed psychiatrist.
• The film addresses the silent pandemic of mental health issues.
• Psychedelics can help build empathy in a disconnected world.
• Letting go is essential during psychedelic experiences.
• He has never had a bad trip, highlighting the need for guidance.

Again, thank you to everyone who is supporting on Patreon, all of the music entries (DylAlien, Flintwich, and Future Boogz), everyone who has helped with scheduling and booking, and last but not least, r/psychonaut.

 00:00 – Intro & Guest Welcome
 02:00 – Inspirations & Origins
 04:00 – First Psychedelic Retreat Experience
 07:00 – Translating Psychedelics to Film
10:30 – The Visual & Emotional Grammar of A Trip Elsewhere
14:00 – Character Arcs & Psychological Themes
18:00 – Real-Life Moments That Made the Film
21:00 – Therapeutic Psychedelics: Real Science, Real Stories
25:00 – Set, Setting, and Integration
30:00 – Viewer Reactions, Misconceptions & Mother’s Transformation
34:00 – The Future of Psychedelics in Film and Medicine
37:00 – Behind the Scenes: Budget, Casting & Visual Storytelling
41:00 – New Projects & Final Reflections
44:00 – Advice for Psychedelic Newcomers
47:00 – Outro & Where to Watch A Trip Elsewhere

Send us Fan Mail

The next course is a weekend intensive and will take place on June 6th and 7th from 8am-2:30pm PT. This is a great opportunity for professionals and European students to participate in our live training at a more accessible time.  

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https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

In this powerful episode of Divergent States, we’re joined by Valerie Beltran and Chelsea Rose-Pires of the Zendo Project- an organization redefining harm reduction and compassionate care at festivals, events, and beyond.

We explore how the Zendo Project began as a MAPS initiative and evolved into its own nonprofit dedicated to supporting people through difficult psychedelic experiences and emotional crises, not with judgment or clinical detachment, but with radical empathy and peer support.

From creating safe spaces at Burning Man to launching training programs for crisis responders, Valerie and Chelsea offer insight into how the Zendo Project is transforming both event culture and the broader conversation around mental health, community care, and psychedelics.

Whether you’ve had a challenging trip, want to support others through non-ordinary states, or are just curious about what real-world harm reduction looks like, this is an episode you don’t want to miss.

🧘‍♀️ Learn how just being present can change lives.
🧠 Discover why “sitting, not guiding” is a revolutionary principle.
💬 And find out how you can get involved, support their mission, or even join them in the field.

✨ “You don’t have to be altered to walk into the Zendo. You just have to be human.” – Valerie Beltran

🔗 Learn more or get involved: zendoproject.org
💚 Donate. Volunteer. Sit with someone. It matters.

Forgot to mention on the episode, but big thanks to Future Boogz for letting us feature their track on this episode! Ach for the art, Brad for the help, and all of the Patreon Supporters! 

All content in Ask Me Anything sessions are for educational purposes only. Zendo Project does not provide any legal, medical or mental health advice. Consult with a lawyer, doctor, or mental health therapist before making any significant decisions for your own situation. Any references to third party websites or service providers are made without any warranties, express or implied. All participants should conduct their own due diligence on any third party websites or professionals before engaging in any conduct. Zendo Project does not encourage or facilitate any illegal conduct.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to the Zendo Project and Festival Collaboration
04:06 Understanding the Zendo Project's Mission and History
10:27 The Role of Outreach and Community Support
14:46 Experiencing a Zendo Session: What to Expect
17:56 Collaboration with Medical Services and Event Producers
21:11 Challenges in Harm Reduction Awareness
23:57 Exciting New Partnerships and Initiatives
27:39 Success Stories and Impact of the Zendo Project
32:10 The Impact of Zendo Project
34:06 Getting Involved: Training and Community
36:13 Education and Outreach in Psychedelic Spaces
39:06 Navigating Adverse Experiences
42:45 Challenges in Providing Services
44:01 Future Vision and Growth of Zendo Project
48:10 Inclusivity and Accessibility in Support Services
52:08 Integration After Experiences
54:57 How to Support Zendo Project

Send us Fan Mail

The next course is a weekend intensive and will take place on June 6th and 7th from 8am-2:30pm PT. This is a great opportunity for professionals and European students to participate in our live training at a more accessible time.  

FiresideProject.org

Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE

Support the show

Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon!  

https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

In this episode of Divergent States, we talk with Dylalien: psychedelic DJ, producer, schoolteacher, and longtime organizer of Goa Gil’s legendary all-night, open-air ritual dance parties. You’ve heard his music on this podcast, but in this conversation, we go deep on what it means to create and participate in psychedelic music culture at its most raw, weird, and transformative.

Together, we explore:

• The life and legacy of Goa Gil, trance music’s spiritual godfather
• The influence of Hindu mysticism and Shiva archetypes in psychedelic culture
• The cosmic giggle: what happens when you dance all night and see the joke behind the universe
• DJing while tripping, playing to the sunrise, and accessing “wizard vision”
• How sound, sync, and group dance create stacked synchronicities
• Why trance is a tool, music is a medicine, and exhaustion is a drug
• The evolution of the underground, from vinyl and anonymity to phones and algorithms
• Being a high school teacher with a secret psychedelic life (“Did you just say that out loud?”)
• Pranksters, dosed swimming pools, and the chaos magic of the California scene
• How a late-in-life awakening led him to start releasing music, after decades in the shadows

We also talk about how psychedelic states can permanently shift your view of reality—how even sobriety feels different once you've danced with the universe. Dylalien reflects on how psychedelics pushed him to go vegan, redefined his ideas about spirituality, and reminded him again and again: “I don’t know anything. And that’s OK.”

This episode blends stories, insight, laughter, and nostalgia with the kind of wisdom that only comes from living decades in a counterculture groove. Whether you’re a musician, a tripper, a Deadhead, or just someone who’s felt the beat pull them into something bigger—you’ll feel at home here.

🎧 Music by Dylalien
🔗 Learn more about Goa Gil’s legacy and psychedelic trance culture
🧠 Support the show: patreon.com/divergentstates
🎤 Want to be on the podcast? Hit us up on Reddit, Instagram, or TikTok.

#Psytrance #GoaGil #PsychedelicMusic #CosmicGiggle #Psychedelics #Deadhead #DivergentStates #Pranksters #TerrenceMcKenna #DJCulture #TranceDance #PsychedelicExperience

Big thank you Bryan, Dylalien, Flintwick, Ach, and Brad of Integration Communications!

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to DylAlien and Goa Gil
02:46 The Impact of Goa Gil on Electronic Music
05:58 The Cosmic Giggle and Psychedelic Experiences
08:58 The Evolution of Music and Technology
11:58 The Role of Music in Trance and Connection
15:45 The Changing Landscape of Music Festivals
18:03 Teaching and Navigating Youth Culture
21:05 The Joy of Musical Collaboration
24:05 The Therapeutic Power of Music and Psychedelics
27:59 Exploring the Power of Music and Drumming
34:19 The Journey into Music and Creativity
37:24 Psychedelics and Reality: A New Perspective
49:57 Microdosing: A Therapeutic Alternative
52:55 Building a Community Through Psychedelics

Send us Fan Mail

The next course is a weekend intensive and will take place on June 6th and 7th from 8am-2:30pm PT. This is a great opportunity for professionals and European students to participate in our live training at a more accessible time.  

FiresideProject.org

Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE

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Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon!  

https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

In this profound episode of Divergent States, we welcome Wendy Tucker, daughter of Ann Shulgin and stepdaughter of the legendary Sasha Shulgin, the "Godfather of Ecstasy." Wendy shares intimate stories of growing up at the iconic Shulgin Farm, working alongside Sasha in his lab, and her mission to preserve their legacy through the Shulgin Foundation.

Key Topics Covered:

• Sasha’s Lab & Humble Genius: Wendy recounts behind-the-scenes moments with Sasha, his playful humor, and the creation of 200+ psychedelic compounds.
• The Farm’s Future: Why the Shulgin property is being preserved as a living community space—not a museum—with plans for workshops, events, and even weddings.
• MDMA’s Therapeutic Roots: How Leo Zeff and Ann Shulgin pioneered underground therapy, and why veterans are now leading the charge for healing.
• Transform Press: Updates on Sasha’s lecture series, The Nature of Drugs, and other rare archival projects.
• How to Get Involved: Supporting the foundation’s mission to protect psychedelic history and foster education.

Perfect for: Psychonauts, historians, therapy advocates, and anyone curious about the intersection of science, culture, and cognitive liberty.

Links & Resources:

• Donate or learn more: shulginfoundation.org
• Follow Divergent States for more deep dives: [Instagram/YouTube] @DivergentStates]

Subscribe now to explore the minds and movements shaping psychedelics today!

Thank you to all the Guests, Patreon supporters, music submissions, and all the wonderful people that come together to make this thing happen! We couldn't be doing this without YOU!

Big thank you Bryan, Dylalien, Flintwick, Ach, and Brad of Integration Communications!

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to the Shulgin Legacy
03:00 Wendy Tucker's Journey and the Shulgin Foundation
06:04 The Importance of the Shulgin Farm
08:55 Community Engagement and Events
11:50 Women and Psychedelics: The Deva Collective
15:00 Personal Reflections and Lessons from the Shulgins
17:53 MDMA Therapy and Veterans' Healing
21:01 Education and Stigma in Psychedelic Use
24:01 Supporting the Shulgin Foundation
26:58 Future Initiatives and Community Building
29:49 Transform Press and Preserving Knowledge
33:03 Balancing Legacy and Modern Research
35:46 Conclusion and Future Outlook

Send us Fan Mail

The next course is a weekend intensive and will take place on June 6th and 7th from 8am-2:30pm PT. This is a great opportunity for professionals and European students to participate in our live training at a more accessible time.  

FiresideProject.org

Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE

Support the show

Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon!  

https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

In this episode of Divergent States, we sit down with Rick Doblin, founder of MAPS (Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies), for a raw, unscripted conversation on the future of psychedelic therapy, the dangers of hype, and the deeply personal reasons behind his decades-long mission.

We go deep into:

• Why MDMA was criminalized and how Doblin outmaneuvered the DEA
• The hard lessons from MAPS' FDA rejection and what's next
• Parenting and psychedelics: how both Rick and 3L1T3 approach education with their kids
• The trauma epidemic—why it’s bigger than war, abuse, or addiction
• How psychedelics could help shift collective consciousness in an age of collapse
• Burning Man, the Zendo Project, and building a new kind of community

Doblin shares stories of his first psychedelic trips, his rebellious roots, and his vision for a future where safe, supported altered states are a human right, not a privilege. This isn’t just policy talk, it’s soul talk.

👉 If you’re neurodivergent, psychedelic-curious, or just fed up with the way things are—this one’s for you.

🧠 Support the show: patreon.com/divergentstates
🎟️ Learn more about Psychedelic Science 2025: maps.org
🔬 Psychedelic Science 25 at https://www.psychedelicscience.org

Thank you to our Visionary Collaborators on Patreon!  
Thank you to Flintwick for the music! 

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Divergent States and MAPS
02:47 Rick Doblin's Journey and the Founding of MAPS
10:03 The Messianic Idea and Psychedelics
18:54 Psychedelics as Tools for Healing
19:00 Educating the Next Generation about Psychedelics
25:00 The Role of Psychedelics in Addressing Global Trauma
30:09 Psychedelics and the Future of Humanity
33:31 Revitalizing Spirituality and Cultural Contexts
34:45 Psychedelics and Responsible Use
36:11 Modern Rites of Passage through Music
37:57 Harm Reduction and Support at Festivals
39:19 Psychedelic Science 2025 Conference
41:35 Community and Collaboration in Psychedelic Research
43:42 Reflections on Policy and Progress
45:42 Navigating Politics and Science
49:35 Globalizing Access to Psychedelic Therapies
52:42 The Importance of Divergent Perspectives

Send us Fan Mail

The next course is a weekend intensive and will take place on June 6th and 7th from 8am-2:30pm PT. This is a great opportunity for professionals and European students to participate in our live training at a more accessible time.  

FiresideProject.org

Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE

Support the show

Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon!  

https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

Psychedelics are no longer the fringe—they’re reshaping medicine, culture, and consciousness itself.

In this episode of Divergent States, 3L1T3 and Bryan sit down with Joe Moore, co-founder and CEO of Psychedelics Today, to explore the messy evolution of the movement: from the chaotic 1960s to today’s corporate clinics and grassroots revival.

They trace Psychedelics Today’s origins, dive into the Vital training program, and discuss what it means to build trust in a scene that still distrusts institutions. Joe shares insight into the next decade of psychedelic science—AI-assisted molecule discovery, new drugs entering clinical trials, and the fading of old stigmas—and the risks of turning medicine into marketing.

Along the way, they talk Leary and McKenna, ketamine cults, LSD alchemy, and the underground traditions worth preserving.

The result is a grounded, forward-looking conversation about authenticity, ethics, and the future of altered states.

Key Points Covered 

• How Psychedelics Today started from the breathwork underground
• What the 1960s got wrong (and right) about psychedelics 
•  The danger of idolizing substances and personalities — “don’t worship the drug” 
• How overuse of ketamine mirrors past mistakes in psychedelic culture
  The future of psychedelic research and the AI-driven chemistry boom
  Vital, the 12-month training program creating the next generation of psychedelic professionals
• What it takes to run an ethical business in a scene that distrusts business
  Harm reduction and why testing your substances matters more than ever
•  The LSD Philosopher’s Stone — does the chemist’s energy shape the trip? 
•  Why pleasure and integration must coexist in psychedelic healing 

🎙️ Joe Moore joins r/Psychonaut for an AMA on October 9, 2025!
🎧 Support the show and hear the Patreon-only “Trip Stories & Cosmic Jokes” bonus segment at patreon.com/divergentstates

Special thanks to SndBagz for the music!

00:00 – Intro / Bryan returns / Reggie Watts recap / Season 2 preview
04:16 – Meeting Joe Moore / Origins of Psychedelics Today
07:30 – Building a new media voice beyond academic monoculture
08:46 – Lessons from the 1960s and the cult of personality
12:00 – “Don’t Worship the Substance” – The Danger of Psychedelic Deification
13:30 – Unsung Heroes: Shulgins, Dr. Z, Grof & Leonard Pickard
15:00 – Repeating Old Mistakes: Ketamine Overuse and Media Myths
17:40 – “Is Anyone Driving the Bus?” – Who Really Controls Psychedelics Today
20:30 – Can Clinical Models Honor Mystical Experiences?
23:00 – Psychedelic Journalism: Objectivity vs Calling Bullshit
25:30 – Inside Vital – Redefining Psychedelic Training
28:30 – Teaching Mysticism to Therapists
31:00 – Building Trust in a Culture Skeptical of Business
37:30 – The Next Decade – Five Psychedelics Likely to Be Legalized
43:30 – Harm Reduction & Testing Culture
46:00 – The LSD Philosopher’s Stone – Energy, Alchemy & Intention
49:00 – Patreon Teaser – Trip Stories & Cosmic Humor
55:00 – Wrap-Up w/ Bryan – Breathwork, Culture & Community
59:00 – Closing – Future Guests, Patreon & Discord Invite

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The next course is a weekend intensive and will take place on June 6th and 7th from 8am-2:30pm PT. This is a great opportunity for professionals and European students to participate in our live training at a more accessible time.  

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Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE

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Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon!  

https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

In this episode of Divergent States, we talk with Joshua White, founder and executive director of the Fireside Project, a nonprofit creating a revolutionary model of psychedelic support through free, real-time emotional care and integration coaching.

What happens when someone takes too much LSD and needs someone to talk to—right now? What if someone is trying to process an ayahuasca ceremony months later, but feels disconnected or judged in traditional therapy settings? Fireside Project offers a lifeline—through voice, text, and now coaching—for people navigating the psychological highs, lows, and revelations that come with non-ordinary states.

Topics we explore:

• Joshua’s journey from attorney to psychedelic peer support pioneer
• The fusion of festival harm reduction (Zendo Project) and therapeutic models
• The challenges and beauty of being vulnerable on psychedelics
• Why peer support is not about fixing the trip—but honoring it
• Fireside’s efforts to center marginalized voices and create culturally attuned care
• The importance of long-term integration, not just “bad trip” triage
• The launch of Fireside’s certified coaching program: preparation, integration, and affordable access to trained support
• Training 600+ volunteers and building a new generation of psychedelic-informed supporters
• The hard truth about fundraising and outreach in the psychedelic nonprofit space
• How to get involved, support, or train with Fireside

We also discuss the deeper existential questions around psychedelics: Why do humans have the capacity for these experiences in the first place? What does it mean to embrace anxiety, rather than suppress it? And how do we build a post-prohibition world rooted in compassion, not commercialization?

Whether you’re preparing for your first journey, working through a past one, or just curious about what a post-psychedelic-care model could look like, this conversation offers a grounded, humble, and hopeful roadmap.

🔗 Learn more or volunteer: firesideproject.org
📱 Download the Fireside app (iOS & Android): Just two buttons—Call or Text.
💬 Support the show: patreon.com/divergentstates
🎧 Music by Flintwick

00:12 – Intro & Fireside Project Overview
02:33 – Joshua’s Journey: From Law to Psychedelics
08:37 – The Four Problems in the Psychedelic Field
12:12 – What a Fireside Support Call Is Like
14:08 – Anxiety, Acceptance, and “The Obstacle Is the Path”
17:32 – Who’s on the Other End of the Line?
20:45 – Volunteer Training & Community Structure
22:46 – Fireside’s Harm Reduction Impact
24:56 – Culturally Attuned Support & Identity-Based Care
26:56 – Fireside’s Biggest Challenge: Fundraising
31:04 – The Fireside Coaching Program Explained
32:45 – First-Time Users & Psychedelic Prep
35:17 – The Fireside App for Trippers
38:01 – Final Thoughts, Get Involved

Send us Fan Mail

The next course is a weekend intensive and will take place on June 6th and 7th from 8am-2:30pm PT. This is a great opportunity for professionals and European students to participate in our live training at a more accessible time.  

FiresideProject.org

Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE

Support the show

Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon!  

https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

Hamilton Morris joins Divergent States to unpack a bizarre twist in the drug war: the DEA is using Reddit posts and trip reports as courtroom “evidence.”

What happens when harm-reduction advice and half-baked comments are weaponized to criminalize psychedelics? And how do communities like r/Psychonaut survive in that climate?

In this wide-ranging conversation, we cut through hype and paranoia to tackle the future of psychedelic research, regulation, and responsibility.

We dig into the ethical tightrope between transparency and safety, the flawed logic of prohibition, and why silence isn’t a sustainable strategy. Hamilton breaks down his firsthand experience attending the DOI scheduling hearing, his efforts to build a scientifically vetted user-report journal, and how communities like r/Psychonaut are caught in the crosshairs of policy and paranoia.

Whether you’re a seasoned psychonaut or just exploring the space, this episode cuts through the hype and hysteria to ask the real questions: How do we speak honestly about altered states in a world that punishes honesty?

Topics include:
• The DEA’s use of Reddit as courtroom “evidence”
• Why trip reports matter and how they’re being misused
• The dangers of pharmacological elitism and spiritual gatekeeping
• The real meaning of harm reduction in an outlaw culture
• The future of psychedelic research, regulation, and responsibility

🎶 Featuring music by Flintwick | Support us on Patreon for exclusive episodes & bonus content.
 💬 Reddit: r/Psychonaut | IG: @divergentstates | #SetSettingGuide

 Chapters 

00:00 Introduction and Context of the Episode 
02:50 The Importance of Transparency in Psychedelic Discussions 
06:04 Balancing Honesty and Safety in Sharing Experiences 
10:33 Community Responsibility and the Impact of Online Discourse 
15:54 The Role of Advocacy and Legal Support in Drug Policy Reform 
20:08 Navigating the Challenges of Scientific Research and Public Perception
 24:08 The Importance of Evidence in Psychedelic Communities 
29:20 Navigating the Wild West of Online Drug Discussions 
31:06 Spirituality vs. Scientific Analysis in Psychedelics 
34:00 The Dangers of Pharmacological Elitism 
37:04 Addressing the Fentanyl Crisis: A Call for Rational Drug Policy 
44:06 The Future of Psychedelic Therapy and Accessibility 
48:28 Integrating Cannabis into Society 
50:13 Destigmatization and Education on Psychedelics 
52:39 The Hype and Risks of Psychedelics 
56:43 Understanding Challenging Experiences with Psychedelics 
01:01:45 Cumulative Impact of Substance Use 
01:07:34 Bringing Psychedelics into the Open 

Send us Fan Mail

The next course is a weekend intensive and will take place on June 6th and 7th from 8am-2:30pm PT. This is a great opportunity for professionals and European students to participate in our live training at a more accessible time.  

FiresideProject.org

Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE

Support the show

Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon!  

https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

What happens when psychedelic research, spiritual inquiry, and neurodivergence converge? In this premiere episode of Divergent States, we sit down with Dr. Rick Strassman, the groundbreaking researcher behind DMT: The Spirit Molecule, to explore the boundaries of consciousness, therapy, and identity.

Host 3L1T3, an autistic psychonaut and longtime community curator, shares his personal journey through psychedelics, the inner wiring of a neurodivergent mind, and why the search for meaning matters. Together with co-host Bryan, the conversation takes unexpected turns: from early DMT studies and pineal gland theories, to the dangers of spiritual bypassing, to the ways autism can shape (and sharpen) visionary experience.

🧠 Topics Include:

• The hidden cost of spiritual highs
• Why Strassman stepped away from psychedelics
• Autistic pattern recognition and altered states
• DMT beings: projection or perception?
• How mainstream psychology misunderstands the trip

Whether you're deep into the psychedelic space or just starting to question consensus reality — this one's for the explorers. Get ready to think differently.

We talk about upcoming guests, give some acknowledgements and shout-outs, and we talk a little about the interview. The music comes from Dyalien on reddit.



Music by Dylalien

Send us Fan Mail

The next course is a weekend intensive and will take place on June 6th and 7th from 8am-2:30pm PT. This is a great opportunity for professionals and European students to participate in our live training at a more accessible time.  

FiresideProject.org

Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE

Support the show

Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon!  

https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

Psychedelics are often framed as creativity boosters, but that’s not exactly what’s happening.

In this conversation with Reggie Watts, we explore what psychedelics actually do to the creative process, from removing self-judgment to unlocking flow states and dissolving the internal filters that normally shape how we think and create.

Reggie shares how different substances affect improvisation, why dissociatives offer a unique kind of creative space, and how altered states can shift the way we experience music, performance, and collaboration. Along the way, we get into ego, flow, and what it really means to “tap into” creativity—both with and without psychedelics.

This isn’t about becoming more creative. It’s about understanding what’s already there—and what’s getting in the way.

⏱️ Chapter Markers

•  00:00 Intro 
•  02:39 Meeting Reggie Watts 
•  03:39 Psychedelics & Creative Process 
•  04:54 Creating in Different States 
•  06:01 Flow State & Self-Judgment 
•  07:33 Psychedelics & Improvisation 
•  09:07 Past vs Future Consciousness 
•  10:12 Creativity Without Psychedelics 
•  11:55 Music, Trance, and Flow 
•  13:12 Dissociatives & Creative Exploration 
•  15:12 Mixing Substances & States 
•  17:24 Cannabis, Nitrous, and Experience 
•  18:38 Memory, Consciousness, and Identity 
•  20:21 Collaborative Creation 
•  22:32 Control vs Openness in Creativity 
•  24:15 Mindset & Creative Outcomes 
•  25:58 Processing Difficult Emotions 
•  27:52 Movement, Music, and Healing 
•  29:14 Letting Go & Permission to Be 
•  30:54 Psychedelics: Tools or Collaborators? 
•  32:58 Outro / Patreon Segment

🎵 Thanks to Sndbagz for the music!

https://on.soundcloud.com/rbYppKLjmcdWUBSrqQ

Send us Fan Mail

The next course is a weekend intensive and will take place on June 6th and 7th from 8am-2:30pm PT. This is a great opportunity for professionals and European students to participate in our live training at a more accessible time.  

FiresideProject.org

Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE

Support the show

Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon!  

https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

History shows politics can make or break psychedelic medicine, will we repeat the 1960s backlash, or finally move forward? 

In this episode of Divergent States, we explore the uneasy intersection of psychedelics and politics. MDMA remains a Schedule I drug—classified as dangerous with no medical use—while at the same time advancing through FDA Phase III trials. This contradiction highlights the limbo psychedelics face today: criminalized on one side, medicalized on the other.

We revisit the lessons of the 1960s, when political backlash ended promising psychedelic research for decades, and compare them to today’s fast-changing landscape. With figures like Robert F. Kennedy Jr. championing psychedelic medicine, the risk of partisan branding looms large. Can the psychedelic renaissance avoid being reduced to culture war ammunition?

From Oregon and Colorado’s legalization models to global perspectives like Australia’s, we unpack the fragile future of access, safety, and legitimacy. And we emphasize why independent media, grassroots communities, and diverse voices are essential to keeping psychedelics rooted in healing rather than political agendas.

🔑 Key Points

• Psychedelics remain Schedule I but are simultaneously advancing toward FDA approval.
• The 1960s crackdown shows the danger of entanglement with politics and culture wars.
• Public opinion has shifted rapidly, with mainstream endorsements from figures like Oprah and Michael Pollan.
• Risks of polarizing association (e.g., RFK Jr.) could trigger backlash despite strong science.
• Oregon’s tightly regulated model vs. Colorado’s more open system—pros, cons, and accessibility challenges.
• Potential for a two-tiered system: expensive legal clinics vs. criminalized underground use.
• Independent media and grassroots communities play a key role in shaping the narrative.
• Psychedelics could follow three futures: medicalized/corporate, grassroots/underground, or partisan football.
• Safety concerns are emerging with unregulated “gas station mushrooms” and microdose products.
• Global models like Australia’s nationwide legalization offer lessons for the U.S. path ahead.

Chapters

00:00 – The Psychedelic Contradiction
MDMA is Schedule I and in FDA Phase III trials — the legal/medical limbo.

02:00 – Why Politics Are Dangerous
Why Divergent States avoids partisan debates, and how culture wars derail progress.

06:30 – Lessons from the 1960s
How Timothy Leary, Nixon, and the War on Drugs shut down decades of psychedelic science.

09:45 – The Risk of Polarization
RFK Jr., vaccines, and how associating psychedelics with a single figure fuels backlash.

15:00 – Fragile Legitimacy
Medical, cultural, and political legitimacy — and how easily it can collapse.

20:20 – Can Psychedelics Unite Us?
Hope for bipartisan support, parallels with cannabis legalization.

24:00 – Global Models & Access
Oregon vs. Colorado, Australia’s legalization, and fears of a two-tiered system.

27:30 – Grassroots vs. Corporate Paths
Safety concerns with “gas station mushrooms,” microdosing hype, and corporate oversight.

31:00 – Pop Culture & Microdosing
South Park satire, normalization, and the line between humor and harm.

32:30 – Why Independent Media Matters
Keeping psychedelics above politics and rooted in science, healing, and community.

New Music from Sndbagz - check out his new EP "Chosen Path" on Soundcloud and Spotify

Check out the accompanying Substack Article:
https://divergentstates.substack.com/p/psychedelics-beyond-politics 

Send us Fan Mail

The next course is a weekend intensive and will take place on June 6th and 7th from 8am-2:30pm PT. This is a great opportunity for professionals and European students to participate in our live training at a more accessible time.  

FiresideProject.org

Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE

Support the show

Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon!  

https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

In this episode of Divergent States, we sit down with Kabir Nath, CEO of Compass Pathways, and Dr. Steve Levine, Chief Patient Officer, to talk about the future of psychedelic medicine. From FDA approval and insurance coverage to patient access, cultural safety, and patents, we dig into whether Compass is truly disrupting the pharma model or just reinventing it.

We also share a major community update: the official Divergent States Discord is now open to all of r/Psychonaut. Built by Brady and the mod team, the server is a space for harm reduction, trip reports, deep dives, and authentic connection across the psychedelic movement.

As always, this conversation is about asking the real questions without corporate PR filters. What Compass shared — and what they left unsaid — reveals as much about the future of psilocybin therapy as the answers themselves.

👉 Join the movement: connect on Discord, support independent media on Patreon, and be part of the conversation. 

https://discord.gg/swPwT6ZYun

Key Points

• FDA approval: path to affordability or illusion of access?
• COM360 psilocybin therapy: synthetic model, patient journey, and therapy debate
• Access & equity: insurance hurdles, pricing models, and patient foundations
• Cultural safety: trauma-informed design, marginalized populations, indigenous roots
• Patents & Pharma tension: innovation vs. corporate control in psychedelic medicine
• Community news: Divergent States Discord officially launches for r/Psychonaut

Chapters

 00:00 – Intro: Setting the frame for Compass Pathways
 01:30 – Community Update: Divergent States Discord opens for r/Psychonaut
 09:30 – Guest Intros: Kabir Nath & Dr. Steve Levine of Compass Pathways
 11:20 – Kabir on moving from pharma to psychedelics
 12:30 – Steve on ketamine clinics & new models of care
 14:15 – What “success” looks like for patients
 16:00 – COM360 psilocybin therapy: synthetic vs. natural & the role of therapy
 17:30 – How Compass plans to deliver psilocybin in different care settings
 18:40 – Patient hopes, fears, and the path to access
 20:00 – FDA approval, insurance, and affordability
 21:00 – Cultural safety, trauma-informed design, and community input
 21:45 – Indigenous engagement & staying “in their lane”
 24:15 – The next 5–10 years of psychedelic treatment
 26:10 – What could derail psychedelic medicine’s promise
 28:10 – Compass’ place in the broader psychedelic ecosystem
 29:50 – Outro: Independent media reflections & listener call to action 

New Music from Sndbagz - check out his new EP "Chosen Path" on Soundcloud and Spotify

https://open.spotify.com/artist/0T1LU2nJ9ibGIU3Bxin2X6
https://soundcloud.com/user-918755844

Send us Fan Mail

The next course is a weekend intensive and will take place on June 6th and 7th from 8am-2:30pm PT. This is a great opportunity for professionals and European students to participate in our live training at a more accessible time.  

FiresideProject.org

Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE

Support the show

Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon!  

https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

In this episode of Divergent States, host 3L1T3 and co-host Bryan sit down with Paul F. Austin, founder of The Third Wave and the Psychedelic Coaching Institute.

We dive deep into microdosing psychedelics, intentional use for peak performance, and the rise of psychedelic coaching as a professional path. Paul shares insights from his book Mastering Microdosing, his vision for conscious entrepreneurship, and how psychedelics are reshaping the way we think about healing, creativity, and human potential.

If you’re curious about LSD or psilocybin microdosing, psychedelic integration, or building a career in the psychedelic space, this episode is packed with actionable takeaways and inspiring perspectives.

🔑 Key Topics & Takeaways:

• How Paul F. Austin became a pioneer in the psychedelic space
• The science and practice of microdosing for focus and creativity
• Why psychedelic coaching is the next frontier in mental health and personal growth
• Entrepreneurship and psychedelics: Lessons from building The Third Wave
• Best practices for safe, intentional psychedelic use
• Where the psychedelic movement is headed in the next 5–10 years

⏱️ Chapters:
0:00 – Welcome to Divergent States with 3L1T3 & Bryan
2:15 – Introducing Paul F. Austin & The Third Wave
5:30 – How Paul discovered psychedelics and microdosing
10:42 – The benefits of microdosing for focus, creativity & emotional balance
18:20 – Psychedelic coaching: What it is and why it’s growing
27:55 – Lessons from building The Third Wave & conscious entrepreneurship
36:10 – Integration, safety, and intentional psychedelic use
44:15 – The future of psychedelics, careers, and community
52:30 – Closing thoughts & how to connect with Paul

Send us Fan Mail

The next course is a weekend intensive and will take place on June 6th and 7th from 8am-2:30pm PT. This is a great opportunity for professionals and European students to participate in our live training at a more accessible time.  

FiresideProject.org

Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE

Support the show

Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon!  

https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

Amber Capone, co-founder and CEO of Veterans Exploring Treatment Solutions (VETS), shares the powerful story of how psychedelic therapy - starting with Ibogaine - helped her husband, Navy SEAL Marcus Capone, recover from PTSD and TBI when traditional care failed.

We dive into the science and controversy behind Ibogaine, the limits of VA mental health care, and how VETS is paving the way for safe access to psychedelics like MDMA, psilocybin, and ketamine for veterans in need.

Key Points:

• Amber’s leap from military spouse to CEO of VETS
• Ibogaine’s transformative potential for PTSD and TBI
• Risks and rewards of seeking psychedelic treatment abroad
• Bipartisan momentum behind veteran psychedelic initiatives
• Why careful vetting, integration, and support are critical

🎧 Listen to hear how psychedelics are changing lives—and the future of trauma care.

Chapter Markers:

• 00:00 – Introduction & why Amber’s story matters
• 05:56 – What was happening behind the scenes at home
• 07:57 – The struggle after service: Marcus’ decline
• 10:59 – Turning point: discovering Ibogaine
• 14:57 – What changed after treatment
• 20:20 – Starting VETS to help other families
• 25:06 – Not just Ibogaine: the expanded toolbox
• 31:21 – Addressing TBI and polytrauma
• 35:43 – The importance of screening, context, and preparation
• 41:46 – VETS’ evolving role in advocacy and support
• 45:16 – Bipartisan support and shifting cultural norms
• 51:54 – What “success” really means for healing veterans
• 57:57 – Where to learn more and get involved

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What happens when the most hunted man in psychedelic history walks free and joins us for a conversation?

In this deeply reflective episode of Divergent States, I sit down with William Leonard Pickard: chemist, philosopher, author of The Rose of Paracelsus, and the man once called the “Acid King.” After decades behind bars, Pickard returns with revelations about time, memory, suffering, redemption, and the spiritual cost of psychedelic pursuit.

We discuss the rise and fall of the most infamous LSD lab in history, Pickard's views on Ibogaine and modern psychedelic commercialization, and how prison reshaped his consciousness. He speaks of literature, inner stillness, shadow organizations, and the unfathomable lessons buried in the folds of silence.

A mythic guest, a poetic mind, and perhaps the most important voice in the psychedelic space today.

🔑 Key Takeaways:

• The "Acid King" Speaks: For the first time in-depth post-supervision, Leonard Pickard reflects on his time at the center of what authorities called the largest LSD operation in history, and what he believes was really happening behind the scenes.
• Prison as a Psychedelic Experience: Pickard describes incarceration not as a void, but as a radically altered state, where time dilates, silence becomes sacred, and the mind either breaks or transcends.
• Ibogaine, Compassion, and the Future: He voices strong views on the therapeutic use of Ibogaine, its dangers when misused, and its misunderstood spiritual potential.
• The Rose of Paracelsus as Code: More than a memoir, Pickard hints that The Rose is layered with veiled truths and archetypes meant for those “with ears to hear”, especially those seeking refuge from commercialized psychedelia.
• The Invisible Networks: He suggests there are forces: academic, clandestine, spiritual, that have shaped and continue to shape psychedelic culture in ways the mainstream never sees.
• Redemption Through Stillness: Pickard doesn't romanticize his past. Instead, he presents a philosophy of quiet redemption, where introspection, myth, and suffering converge into what he calls “the sacred cost.”
• Warnings to the Psychedelic Industry: He offers a cautionary tale to today’s entrepreneurs and enthusiasts: be wary of glamorizing chemical mysticism, and remember that true wisdom comes not from flash, but from depth.

00:00 – Introduction: The Acid King Returns

3:06 – From Secrecy to Spotlight

06:00 – Psychedelic Culture: Then and Now

10:53 – Ibogaine and Healing Work

12:44 – On Commercialization and Ceremony

16:46 – What About the Sacred?

19:46 – Medicalization vs. Freedom

24:53 – What They Never Ask

26:22 – Second Life Reflections

33:16 – What Prison Taught Me

38:15 – Ergot Wine and LSD Myths

43:01 – Machine Elves and Other Planes

44:13 – Star Trek and the Pickard Rumor

45:07 – Outro and Patreon Preview

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In this episode, 3L1T3 sits down with Dr. Anne Wagner, clinical psychologist and founder of Remedy, whose research pushes MDMA therapy beyond the individual — into the space between two people. We explore what happens when couples facing PTSD enter treatment together, why trauma rarely belongs to just one partner, and whether psychedelic medicine can transform relational patterns where traditional therapy fails.

We also examine the ethical and emotional risks of dyadic MDMA therapy: consent, power dynamics, memory, boundaries, and what happens when only one partner improves. Is this the future of trauma care — or a dangerous leap?

This conversation challenges the standard medical model, questions the limits of psychedelic therapy, and asks whether healing sometimes requires more than one nervous system.

• Why relationship trauma isn’t just “one person’s PTSD”
• How MDMA-assisted therapy is being adapted for couples
• The science behind “dyadic healing”
• What happens when both partners dose — together
• How MDMA opens emotional flexibility + secure bonding
• Core risks: power imbalance, coercion, storytelling shifts
• Ethical challenges in couples psychedelic work
• Is relational MDMA therapy scalable?
• Why some couples shouldn’t take MDMA together
• What traditional therapy gets wrong about trauma
• “The Power of Two” — healing via the relationship itself
• Case outcomes — surprising results
• Where research goes from here

🎧 Plus: updates from Psychedelic Science 2025, upcoming guests like Leonard Pickard and Reggie Watts, and why the future of therapy might come in pairs.

⏱️ Chapters:

00:00 – Intro & Conference Check-In
 04:22 – Meet Dr. Anne Wagner
 04:38 – Misunderstandings About MDMA Therapy
 07:13 – Empathy and Connection on MDMA
 09:05 – Pilot Study Results from MDMA + CBCT
 14:08 – Unexpected Dyadic Challenges
 16:31 – Why Couples Therapy vs Solo MDMA Work
 20:09 – Shifting Toward CPT + MDMA
 24:18 – Preview of Anne’s Panels at PS25
 28:57 – Defining Integration for Couples
 32:35 – Will Dyadic Integration Become Its Own Field?
 34:52 – Power Dynamics, Communication & Conflict on MDMA
 37:22 – MDMA, Neurodivergence, and CPTSD
 40:38 – Future of MDMA in General Relationship Work
 42:13 – Ethical Guardrails for Psychedelic Couples Therapy
 44:50 – Risks of Untrained Psychedelic Facilitators
 45:44 – Training Models for Dyadic Psychedelic Therapists
 47:20 – Access, Regulation & Stigma Barriers
 49:20 – Anne’s Origin Story: Psychedelics, Trauma & Relationships
 51:23 – Most Unexpected Lesson from the Work
 53:09 – How to Connect with Remedy Centre
 54:02 – Final Thoughts & Psychedelic Science Plans
 59:09 – Outro: PTSD Breakthroughs & Upcoming Guests

Music by Flintwick

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Season Two of Divergent States is about something simple and surprisingly rare: exploring altered states without losing touch with reality.

In this preview episode, 3L1T3 and Bryan share two short moments from upcoming conversations that define the tone of the season ahead.

In the first, Shane Mauss reflects on how psychedelics open people to awe—but also to certainty, conspiracies, and belief systems that can replace reality if no one pushes back. In the second, Cesar Marin explains why presence and human connection are the real work of integration, not endless chasing of peak experiences.

Together, these moments capture what Divergent States has always tried to do: hold space for wonder without drifting into delusion, depth without losing grounding, and exploration rooted in real human connection.

Patreon supporters get extended versions of these conversations, including sections that don’t survive algorithm-friendly edits. But this preview is here for everyone—because harm reduction, presence, and honest conversation shouldn’t be paywalled.

Welcome to Season Two.

Chapters

00:00 – Welcome back & season context
Introducing Season Two and why this year matters.

00:28 – What Divergent States actually is
What the show is: harm reduction, not hype or spiritual theater.

01:05 – Shane Mauss: Awe, science, and belief systems
The “ghost crocodile” and microscope analogy.

04:49 – Why psychedelics create both insight and delusion
Reflections on pattern-seeking and certainty in psychedelic spaces.

05:20 – Cesar Marin: Presence as integration
Connection, mushrooms, and staying grounded in real life.

07:17 – The power of daily human connection
Kids, texts, meditation, and showing up.

08:55 – What Divergent States is really about
Awe without delusion; depth without losing touch.

09:15 – Patreon & how to support the show
Extended cuts, deeper conversations, and why it matters.

10:10 – Harm reduction & Zendo Project
Why we partner with them and what the code supports.

10:50 – Closing & Season Two welcome
Personal sign-off and transition into the new season.

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Dennis McKenna joins 3L1T3 and Valerie Beltran to discuss the future of psychedelics, indigenous knowledge, and whether we are ready to bring these tools into mainstream culture without repeating the extractive patterns of the past. We explore the gap between good intentions and real reciprocity, what Western psychedelic enthusiasm is missing, and how community-based practice may matter more than clinical models alone.

We also dive into the first biomedical study of ayahuasca with the UDV, how long-term members showed surprising changes in behavior and biology, and why the community structure may have played a larger role than the compound itself. Dennis talks about the work happening at the McKenna Academy, preserving Amazonian herbarium collections, digitizing ancestral plant knowledge, and the ESPD Symposia.

This conversation calls out the cultural side of psychedelics, not just the science. If psychedelics are going to help, they must be integrated with wisdom, not just technology.

Join our Patreon for the exclusive extended interview!

Key Points

• Psychedelics entered global awareness through indigenous stewardship, not Western invention
• Reciprocity requires more than money and acknowledgment
• The ESPD Symposia preserve ethnobotanical knowledge and make it public
• Efforts to digitize herbarium collections in Peru before they are lost

Chapters

00:00 Welcome to the season finale with Valerie
01:10 Who Dennis McKenna is and why he still matters
04:50 What still feels unresolved after 50 years
06:15 Co-optation, capitalism, and indigenous knowledge
09:00 The ESPD symposia and preserving ancestral knowledge
12:40 Biognosis and digitizing Amazonian herbarium archives
17:00 Why preserving knowledge matters more than artifacts
18:35 The first biomedical study of ayahuasca with the UDV
22:45 Behavioral change, alcoholism, and community support
24:40 Serotonin transporter findings and biological mechanisms
27:30 Neuroplasticity and long-term structural change
31:00 Microdosing vs macro experiences
33:20 Default mode network and stepping outside the self
36:20 Separation from nature and cultural disconnection
38:30 Technology, AI, and cultural fragmentation
42:20 What real reciprocity might look like
46:50 Avoiding cultural appropriation and extraction
50:00 Psychedelics entering clinical models
52:45 Mushrooms as ideal symbiotic partners
56:00 Future of psychedelics in 10 years
01:00:20 Ibogaine as global brain reset
01:04:00 Evolution, partnership, and species symbiosis
01:06:00 Closing thoughts

 Thanks to Dyl👽Alien for the music! 

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What really happens when psychedelics change someone, and why do some people come back grounded while others spiral into ego, conspiracy, or spiritual bypassing?

In this long-form conversation, comedian and science-minded psychonaut Shane Mauss joins Divergent States for a deep dive into what psychedelics do to the human mind beneath the mystical language. Drawing on neuroscience, cognitive bias, evolutionary psychology, and lived psychedelic experience, Shane explains how substances like LSD, mushrooms, and DMT increase mental plasticity, loosen rigid categories, and open the brain to new ways of thinking — for better and for worse.

Together, we explore why altered states can lead to creativity, healing, and insight, but also why they can just as easily fuel delusion, conspiracy thinking, and inflated ego. We talk about the placebo effect, Dunning-Kruger, belief formation, and how access to infinite information can make people feel like they know everything while understanding very little. Shane also shares candid stories from inside the psychedelic comedy world, including how Tales From the Trip was secretly launched at Comedy Central, why he’s uneasy about the current psychedelic “gold rush,” and how mainstream acceptance has changed the culture.

This episode isn’t about chasing cosmic secrets or mystical narratives. It’s about how the mind actually works — and how psychedelics can either help us become more open, curious, and flexible, or lock us deeper into fantasy if we don’t know how to think critically about what we experience.

If you care about psychedelics, consciousness, and staying grounded in reality while exploring extraordinary states, this conversation is for you.

Shane's new special comes out 2/18 on ShaneMauss.com!

Special thanks to Drip who did the music, check him out on Spotify and Soundcloud!

 00:00 — Season 2 Opening
 04:18 — From Stand-Up to Science
 07:40 — Creating Psychedelic Theater
 11:40 — Why Psychedelic Comedy Was Taboo
 14:50 — Tales From the Trip Origin Story
 19:20 — Why He Doesn’t Feel Like a Regular Comic
 23:40 — Comedy as Tension and Truth
 34:00 — George Carlin and Big-Idea Comedy
 38:20 — Psychedelics Going Mainstream
 41:00 — Skeptical Psychonauts
 45:20 — Seeing the Dark Side of the Scene
 47:45 — Psychedelics, Categorization, and the Brain
 51:30 — The Crunchy-to-Conservative Pipeline
 54:00 — Dunning-Kruger and Illusions of Knowledge
 57:10 — Why Science Is Counterintuitive
 01:02:40 — Why These Conversations Matter 

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Iboga has a reputation.

It’s intense. It’s long. It carries real risk. And for some people, it’s life-changing.

But what actually happens inside a retreat container? And what does this work look like behind the scenes?

In this episode of Divergent States, 3L1T3 and Bryan sit down with Paije West and Fletcher Burdick, founders of ETEREO, an iboga retreat center in Baja, Mexico. Their approach sits somewhere between medical oversight and traditional ceremony, which opens up some thoughtful questions about safety, responsibility, integration, and how we talk about powerful medicines without turning them into mythology.

This isn’t a hype piece.

It’s a grounded conversation about:

• The difference between iboga and ibogaine
 • Cardiac risk and how they screen for it
 • Why they sometimes say “no”
 • What ceremony actually does (beyond aesthetics)
 • Whether luxury retreat settings help or distract
 • Why integration matters more than most people think
 • And whether the field might be moving a little too fast

We talk about neuroplasticity, structure vs freedom, tradition vs extraction, and what’s still unknown about iboga.

If you’re curious about the medicine — or about how people try to hold it responsibly — this one’s worth your time.

The extended, more personal segment continues on Patreon.

Chapter Markers

00:00 – Introducing Bryan & Why This Conversation Matters
 02:00 – Framing the Episode: No Miracle Claims
 03:15 – What ETEREO Is (In Plain Language)
 07:00 – What an Iboga Retreat Looks Like
 11:20 – Iboga vs Ibogaine
 14:30 – Ceremony: Structure, Not Symbolism
 16:30 – Neuroplasticity & Set and Setting
 17:40 – Who Iboga Is Not For
 21:30 – Safety & Medical Screening
 24:30 – Small Groups vs High-Volume Clinics
 25:30 – “Conscious Luxury” — Does It Help?
 29:00 – Stepping Away from the Real World
 30:00 – Why Integration Is Everything
 32:00 – Relational Healing
 35:00 – Why They Don’t Track Outcomes Like Clinics
 36:10 – Incentives & Avoiding Extraction
 39:10 – Is the Field Moving Too Fast?
 40:00 – What We Still Don’t Know About Iboga
 41:30 – Final Reflections
 42:00 – Patreon Segment Tease
 44:50 – Closing Thoughts

 🎧 Extended version available on Patreon
🎓 Zendo Project peer-support training: use code DIVERGENTS10

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What happens when a 25-year career at CNN ends — and a new life begins?

In this episode of Divergent States, we talk with Cesar Marin, former CNN producer and founder of Microdosing Over 50, about how psychedelics helped him navigate midlife, identity loss, and personal reinvention.

Cesar shares his journey from broadcast media to becoming an advocate for intentional microdosing later in life. We explore the difference between microdosing for healing vs optimization, how intention shapes outcomes, and why people over 50 face unique integration challenges.

We also discuss:
 • Microdosing psilocybin vs LSD
 • Career loss and psychedelic-driven reinvention
 • Presence, connection, and integration practices
 • How media shapes psychedelic narratives
 • Why midlife may be the most powerful time for change
 • Healing vs performance framing in psychedelic use
 • Stigma, legality, and education
 • Building a mission-driven life after burnout

This conversation is about more than substances — it’s about agency, curiosity, and what happens when you stop outsourcing your meaning.

🎧 Extended version available on Patreon
🎓 Zendo Project peer-support training: use code DIVERGENTS10
🧠 For listeners interested in microdosing, midlife transitions, and psychedelic culture

https://cultivatingwisdom.net/

⏱️ Chapter Markers

00:00 – Introduction & Cesar’s background
 01:45 – 25 years at CNN and getting laid off
 04:30 – Discovering psychedelics at 55
 06:40 – Cultivating Wisdom & microdosing over 50
 10:15 – Loss, grief, and mission-driven work
 13:10 – What shifted personally
 17:45 – Early doubts and first psychedelic experience
 22:23 – Fun vs healing: why people stay
 22:41 – How media shaped his psychedelic voice
 26:13 – Bad headlines and stigma
 28:26 – Why storytelling matters
 29:18 – Midlife fear and reinvention
 32:12 – “It’s not almost over — it’s just starting”
 33:18 – Integration for older adults
 37:55 – Meditation, presence, and connection
 39:13 – Healing vs optimization
 43:45 – Microdosing LSD vs psilocybin
 46:36 – Psychedelic commercialization
 47:47 – Public episode wrap-up
 48:31 – Post-interview reflections
 50:05 – Bryan’s takeaway
 52:11 – Healing vs optimization framing
 54:17 – Outro & Patreon plug

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In Part One of The Many Faces of Coca, 3L1T3 and Bryan sit down with Wade Davis to unpack the long history of the coca leaf and how a plant used for over 8,000 years became globally criminalized.

This conversation isn’t about cocaine. It’s about coca.

Wade walks us through:

• How coca was independently domesticated multiple times in pre-Columbian South America
• Why early 20th-century elites blamed coca for poverty instead of confronting inequality
• The 1949 UN commission that arrived with its conclusions already written
• The nutritional research that challenged decades of ideology
• How the modern international scheduling framework still treats coca as if it were fentanyl or heroin
• Why the recent WHO review maintained the status quo — and what that means

We also explore the deeper cultural reality: coca as ritual exchange, spiritual alignment, social glue, and daily sustenance in the Andes.

This episode lays the foundation for the series.
Next, we move into the ethnobiology with Dennis McKenna.
Then we examine sovereignty and lived realities with Manuela Picq.

If you’ve ever wondered why coca gets ignored while other plant medicines dominate Western discourse, this is where we start pulling that thread.

This isn’t nostalgia.
It’s about policy, ideology, and whether a plant can be separated from the story told about it.

Key Points

• Coca has been used for over 8,000 years in the Andes, distinct from cocaine.
• Cocaine is an extracted alkaloid; the leaf itself functions very differently.
• Coca was independently domesticated three times in pre-Columbian South America.
• The leaf contains significant nutritional value (calcium, vitamins, protein) and aids digestion at altitude.
• Early 20th-century elites blamed coca for poverty and social issues instead of structural inequality.
• The 1949 UN commission formed conclusions before conducting meaningful investigation.
• The 1961 UN drug scheduling framework still reflects that early ideological bias.
• Coca plays a central spiritual and social role in Andean cultures (ritual exchange, prayer, daily labor).
• Prohibition has fueled violence, displacement, and environmental harm in coca-growing regions.
• The core policy question is political, not pharmacological: can coca be separated from cocaine in law and narrative?

Chapters

 00:00 – 8,000 Years of Coca
 04:19 – What Is Coca?
 08:22 – Traditional Use & Preparation
 14:36 – The 1949 UN Commission
 23:10 – Drug War Consequences
 29:23 – Coca as Cultural Foundation
 33:40 – Why There’s No Public Constituency
 43:35 – Coca vs Cocaine Extraction
 46:00 – DEA, Cartels & Prohibition Incentives
 50:47 – If You Remember One Thing
 53:10 – Reflection & Series Preview 

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The Many Faces of Coca – Part Two

In Part Two of the Many Faces of Coca series, 3L1T3 and Bryan sit down with renowned ethnopharmacologist Dennis McKenna to explore the science behind the coca leaf.

Part One focused on history and politics with Wade Davis, this conversation turns to the biology and chemistry of the plant itself.

What actually happens when coca is chewed?
What compounds exist in the leaf besides cocaine?
Why did human cultures independently domesticate coca multiple times?

Dennis breaks down the alkaloid chemistry, pharmacology, and plant symbiosis that shaped coca’s role in Andean societies for thousands of years.

Along the way, the conversation explores:

• The three coca species used by humans
• Why coca and cocaine are chemically and culturally different
• The entourage effect of whole plant medicines
• How alkaline activation changes coca absorption
• Why coca chewing may help treat cocaine addiction
• The scientific questions prohibition has prevented researchers from asking

The result is a clearer picture of a plant that has been misunderstood for over a century.

This episode is Part Two of a three-part series examining coca from history, chemistry, and lived experience.

Part Three will explore how coca prohibition shapes real life in Andean communities with Manuela Picq.

Key Points

• Coca comes from three main domesticated species in the genus Erythroxylum.
• The coca leaf contains multiple alkaloids, not just cocaine.
• Cocaine is only one compound within a larger phytochemical matrix in the leaf.
• Traditional coca chewing uses alkaline substances to increase alkaloid absorption.
• Whole plant use produces a broader entourage effect compared to isolated cocaine.
• Indigenous cultures independently domesticated coca multiple times across South America.
• Coca may help high-altitude populations adapt through increased energy, nutrition, and appetite suppression.
• Cocaine acts primarily as a dopamine reuptake inhibitor in the brain.
• Some evidence suggests chewing coca may help people transition away from cocaine dependence

Chapters:

00:00 – What Is Coca? The Question That Starts Everything
00:44 – Major Psilocybin News: Compass Pathways Phase 3 Results
04:28 – The Many Faces of Coca Series (Part 2 Introduction)
07:36 – Dennis McKenna Joins the Conversation
08:09 – Coca vs Cocaine: The Botanical Reality
15:06 – Why Humans Domesticated Coca
18:23 – Why Humans Seek Altered States of Consciousness
26:06 – What’s Actually Inside the Coca Leaf?
31:31 – Why Coca Is Not the Same as Cocaine
36:48 – Is Coca Addictive? The Science Explained
42:23 – The Medical Potential of Coca
48:41 – Why Drug Laws Block Scientific Research
55:25 – What We Learned From the Chemistry of Coca
59:33 – The War on Drugs and the Economics of Coca
01:00:42 – Next Episode: The Human Cost of Prohibition 

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This is the human center of The Many Faces of Coca.

By the time coca enters Western conversations, it’s already been abstracted—reduced to policy, drugs, or crime. But for millions of people, coca isn’t any of those things.

It’s daily life.

In this final episode of the series, we speak with political theorist and anthropologist Manuela Picq, who has lived and worked alongside communities in the Andes and Amazon. This conversation moves beyond theory and into lived reality—how coca functions as food, medicine, memory, and community.

We explore:

– Why coca is not cocaine—and why that distinction matters
– How prohibition reshapes entire communities
– The generational loss of cultural knowledge
– The role of women as keepers of coca traditions
– How global policy decisions impact real lives on the ground
– Why the war on coca may actually be a war on people

If Parts 1 and 2 explored the science and history of coca, this episode asks a deeper question:

What does it mean to live with this plant today?

This is Part 3 of The Many Faces of Coca
Featuring conversations with Wade Davis, Dennis McKenna, and Manuela Picq

Chapters:

00:00 Intro – Coca as Lived Reality (Not Policy)
04:05 Who Defines Coca? (Culture vs Western Narratives)
09:51 How Coca Became Criminalized
13:22 Coca in Daily Life (Food, Medicine, Community)
18:02 From Tradition to Cash Crop
22:19 Who Pays the Price? (Violence & Exploitation)
25:45 Prohibition, Capitalism & the Drug War
28:35 Women, Knowledge & Hidden Traditions
33:37 Is Coca Control Really About Power?
36:32 The UN, Policy & Global Disconnect
40:09 What the World Gets Wrong About Coca
41:15 Closing Thoughts (End of Interview)
43:07 Post-Conversation Reflection (Why This Series Matters)
45:31 Where to Go Next (Series, Patreon, Discord)

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If one or two psychedelic sessions can produce measurable improvements in treatment-resistant depression, why does modern psychiatry still rely on daily medication?

In this episode of Divergent States, we sit down with Dr. Steve Levine, psychiatrist and Chief Patient Officer at Compass Pathways, to break down their newly released Phase 3 clinical trial results for COMP360 psilocybin therapy.

But this isn’t a hype piece.

This is a critical look at what the data actually shows—and what people might be getting wrong.

We explore:
– What Phase 3 trials really mean (and why they often fail)
– Why a “3.8 point improvement” is more significant than it sounds
– The difference between clinical psilocybin therapy and underground use
– Why one or two sessions may work—but not for everyone
– The role of neuroplasticity, subjective experience, and “set & setting”
– Why scaling psychedelic therapy is harder than it looks
– The tension between commercialization and psychedelic culture
– What FDA approval would—and wouldn’t—change

Compass Pathways has now run over 1,000 participants across Phase 2 and Phase 3 trials, showing statistically significant results in treatment-resistant depression. But translating that into real-world treatment is a completely different challenge.

This conversation pulls back the curtain on what it actually takes to turn psychedelics into medicine—and where the limitations still are.

Because this show isn’t about psychedelics being amazing.

It’s about understanding what’s true… and what holds up under scrutiny.

🎧 Subscribe to Divergent States for grounded, skeptical conversations in psychedelic science, culture, and harm reduction.

💬 Join the community Discord via r/Psychonaut (link in subreddit)

🎶 Music:
Elemental by [Drip]

 ⚠️ This podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute medical advice. 

Chapters:

 00:00 If Psychedelics Work, Why Daily Medication?
 01:15 Why This Isn’t a “Psychedelics Are Amazing” Episode
 04:00 From Daily Pills to 1–2 Treatments
 06:45 Why Ketamine Wasn’t the Breakthrough
 09:25 What Phase 3 Trials Actually Prove (And Don’t)
 12:50 What Regulators Are Really Looking For
 14:25 What a “3.8 Score Improvement” Actually Means
 15:55 Psychedelic Hype vs Reality
 18:30 What Actually Stood Out in the Data
 21:40 Why Psychedelics Work Faster
 24:55 Is the Experience Part of the Treatment?
 25:45 Why Set and Setting Still Matter
 30:10 Will This Ever Be At-Home?
 33:00 Why Therapists Don’t “Do Therapy” Here
 34:40 The Real Problem: Scaling Access
 39:00 Commercialization vs Psychedelic Culture
 43:00 What Are the Actual Risks?
 45:10 What Success Looks Like in 10 Years
 47:10 Why Access Matters More Than Approval
 49:50 Why This Fails in the Real World
 52:10 Outro + Patreon Integration Session 

Send us Fan Mail

The next Zendo Project course is a weekend intensive and will take place on June 6th and 7th from 8am-2:30pm PT. This is a great opportunity for professionals and European students to participate in our live training at a more accessible time.  

FiresideProject.org

Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE

Support the show

Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon!  

https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

Psychedelics don’t fix your life.

They don’t make you a better person. They don’t replace responsibility. And they don’t solve the problems waiting for you when you come back.

In this episode, we sit down with Talia Eisenberg from Beond to talk about what actually happens after a powerful psychedelic experience—especially with ibogaine. What changes, what doesn’t, and why the hardest part is often what comes after.

We get into:

• why insight isn’t the same as change
• what people misunderstand about “healing”
• the unglamorous reality of recovery and integration
• why some people aren’t ready for these experiences
• and what it really takes to make those changes stick

This isn’t a conversation about breakthroughs or peak experiences.

It’s about what holds up when the experience ends.

🎧 Music:
Hyperspace — Sndbagz

🎙️ Divergent States is a podcast exploring psychedelics without the hype—focused on harm reduction, integration, and what actually works in the real world.

Chapters:

00:00 – Psychedelics Don’t Fix Your Life
01:17 – Harm Reduction Matters (Zendo Project)
03:08 – Meet Talia Eisenberg (Ibogaine & Recovery)
04:05 – What Psychedelics Don’t Fix
06:32 – Agency, Accountability, and Hard Truths
07:35 – Addiction, Ibogaine, and Starting Over
10:04 – Life After the Trip: Real Change
11:25 – Optimization vs Avoidance
13:26 – Psychedelics Don’t Replace Responsibility
14:39 – Spiritual Bypassing (Ketamine, MDMA, Psilocybin)
17:11 – Why Ibogaine Forces Honesty
20:07 – Escaping vs Doing the Work
20:59 – Do Psychedelics Delay Change?
22:33 – Who Struggles Most After Psychedelics
24:08 – The “Reset” Myth
26:19 – What Actually Changes After Ibogaine
30:05 – What Doesn’t Change
31:41 – The Comedown: Emotional Whiplash
34:00 – Healthy Discomfort vs Avoidance
36:58 – Struggle Isn’t Failure
38:48 – Power, Clinics, and Psychedelic Ethics
44:19 – Red Flags: Gurus, Clinics, and Safety
47:36 – You Don’t Need Ibogaine
48:58 – What We Cut (Patreon Preview)
52:20 – Final Thoughts + Support the Show

Send us Fan Mail

The next course is a weekend intensive and will take place on June 6th and 7th from 8am-2:30pm PT. This is a great opportunity for professionals and European students to participate in our live training at a more accessible time.  

FiresideProject.org

Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE

Support the show

Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon!  

https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

Dennis Walker joins Divergent States to unpack how psychedelic stories actually become “news,” why sensationalism dominates drug coverage, and how media narratives shape public perception around psychedelics.

We discuss psychedelic exceptionalism, corporate psychedelics, satire as social critique, harm reduction, underground culture, MAPS, FDA approval, clinical gatekeeping, psychedelic tourism, and the growing divide between real-world psychedelic use and institutional messaging.

Dennis is a journalist, satirist, and creator of Mycopreneur, known for blending humor, gonzo journalism, and cultural criticism to explore the psychedelic ecosystem from angles most outlets avoid.

Topics:

• Why bad drug stories spread faster
• Psychedelic journalism and narrative control
• Corporate psychedelics vs underground culture
• Why satire works in psychedelic spaces
• FDA approval and clinical gatekeeping
• Psychedelic tourism and ethics
• The “good drug / bad drug” double standard
• MAPS, media narratives, and psychedelic exceptionalism

Check out Dennis' work at https://www.mycopreneur.com/

Patreon supporters get the extended Integration Session and early access to episodes:
patreon.com/divergentstates

 Music by Sandbgz 

Chapters:

00:00 – Why Psychedelic Narratives Matter
 04:38 – Dennis Walker on Satire, Psychedelics & Media
 08:11 – When Psychedelics Became Politics & Money
 10:56 – How Drug Narratives Shape Public Opinion
 15:27 – Why Satire Works Better Than Lectures
 18:07 – Why Negative Drug Stories Dominate Headlines
 23:32 – Good Drugs vs Bad Drugs in Media Coverage
 28:26 – The Push Toward Clinical-Only Psychedelic Use
 34:02 – Who Controls Psychedelic Journalism?
 37:19 – The Missing Voices in Psychedelic Media
 42:13 – Field Reporting, Community & Psychedelic Culture
 46:16 – Social Media, Framing & Manufactured Narratives
 50:26 – Building a Healthier Psychedelic Culture
 55:00 – Patreon Integration Session Transition
 58:13 – Final Reflections & Why These Conversations Matter
 01:00:40 – Outro

Send us Fan Mail

The next Zendo Project course is a weekend intensive and will take place on June 6th and 7th from 8am-2:30pm PT. This is a great opportunity for professionals and European students to participate in our live training at a more accessible time.  

FiresideProject.org

Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE

Support the show

Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon!  

https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

Former NFL player and College Football Hall of Famer Robert Gallery joins Divergent States for one of the most raw conversations we’ve had on the show.

After retiring from professional football, Robert began experiencing intense rage episodes, suicidal thoughts, emotional instability, brain fog, and severe PTSD-like symptoms linked to repeated head trauma and brain injury from years in the NFL.

What followed wasn’t a clean or simple recovery story.

We talk about identity loss after professional sports, invisible brain injuries, emotional dysregulation, alcoholism, suicide ideation, veterans and athletes sharing similar trauma patterns, and why psychedelic-assisted therapy — particularly Ibogaine and 5-MeO-DMT — became a turning point in his life.

This episode isn’t really about “getting high.” It’s about what happens when the system fails, your brain changes, and you’re left trying to figure out who you are afterward.

We also discuss:

• The psychological cost of repeated head trauma
• Rage responses and emotional volatility
• PTSD similarities between veterans and athletes
• The dangers of untreated brain injury
• Why Robert nearly gave up hope
• Ibogaine therapy and psychedelic-assisted recovery
• Integration, routine, meditation, and rebuilding identity
• Athletes For Care and helping other athletes find treatment

Patreon members get access to the extended Integration Session, where we discuss the risks of Ibogaine, safety concerns, treatment settings, and broader conversations around psychedelic therapy and harm reduction.

If the public episode is the trip, the Patreon edition is the integration.

Music is by [Drip] - Mr. Postman

https://athletesforcare.org/

Chapters:

00:00 Intro – When Brain Injury Changes Who You Are
01:05 Why Football Trauma Is More Than Physical
03:41 Robert Gallery Joins the Show
04:05 Life After Football & Losing Identity
05:43 Rage, Anxiety & Early Warning Signs
07:51 Realizing Something Was Seriously Wrong
09:25 Athletes, Veterans & PTSD Parallels
10:57 Repetitive Head Trauma & The Cost of Football
12:10 The Brain Scan That Changed Everything
13:43 Suicide Ideation, Shame & Hopelessness
15:12 Suffering in Silence
16:22 Asking for Help
17:07 Why Vulnerability Saved His Life
18:15 Discovering Ibogaine Through Veterans
18:50 What Rage Actually Felt Like
21:12 Was It Really Him—or Brain Injury?
22:45 Trying Conventional Treatments First
25:12 Running Out of Options
25:39 Finding Hope in Ibogaine
28:07 The Decision to Go to Mexico
30:21 The Ibogaine Experience
33:39 5-MeO-DMT & "Turning the Lights Back On"
35:54 Coming Home Changed
38:01 Why Healing Isn't One and Done
39:28 Returning for a Second Treatment
41:23 Growth vs Survival
42:50 Building a New Life Through Routine
43:57 Athletes For Care
46:23 Public Episode Outro
48:28 Integration Session Intro
48:42 Misdiagnosis, Trauma & Identity
50:05 Anger, Trauma & Nearly Losing Control
50:40 Neuroplasticity & Recovery
51:16 Support the Show

Send us Fan Mail

The next Zendo Project course is a weekend intensive and will take place on June 6th and 7th from 8am-2:30pm PT. This is a great opportunity for professionals and European students to participate in our live training at a more accessible time.  

FiresideProject.org

Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE

Support the show

Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon!  

https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod