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Explore every episode of the podcast Design Systems WTF

Dive into the complete episode list for Design Systems WTF. Each episode is cataloged with detailed descriptions, making it easy to find and explore specific topics. Keep track of all episodes from your favorite podcast and never miss a moment of insightful content.

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TitlePub. DateDuration
Are we doing motion right in design systems?29 Sep 202600:49:09

Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience.

With the release of Figma Motion, we finally have a tool that talks to our design systems that do motion. So now it's time to ask the question - are we covering motion within our design systems in the right way?

Show notes



Is generative UI ever going to happen?15 Sep 202600:51:25

Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience.

A few years ago everyone started talking about how AI-powered interfaces are going to start generating UI on the fly. But how close is that from being a reality? Have there been any advances towards it being a mainstream thing? And what do we need to know from a design systems perspective to cater towards it?

Show notes

Get in touch

What should we call design systems?01 Sep 202600:41:33

Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience.

We really screwed the pooch when it came to naming design systems. Why is the name so bad? And should we call it something else? Or should we bin the whole concept of design systems and start over in a completely decommodified way?

Show notes


What is the future of agentic design systems?18 Aug 202600:44:18

Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience.

Agentic is the buzz word of the moment - but what does it actually mean for design systems? Luke and Michelle have a real conversation about what's hype, what's possible, and where they see it all going.

Show notes

Get in touch

How do you get research findings back to the design system team?04 Aug 202600:52:35

Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience.

We're all in agreement that UX Research and design systems should work hand in hand. But how do you actually get this to work in practice? How can UX Researchers and design systems folks work best together? What cadence should you be doing things? And should you be included research findings as part of your design system documentation?

Show notes

Is Governance Just Theater?21 Jul 202600:47:50

Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience.

Governance seems to be one of those fancy words that gets thrown around a lot by design system people - but what level of governance is actually worthwhile, and how much of it is theater? Michelle and Luke will dive into governance, what level is good enough, and what bits they think you should scrap.

Show notes



What do the Config 2026 announcements mean for design systems?14 Jul 202600:55:15

Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience.

Config 2026 happened in San Francisco last week, so we got together straight after the announcements to discuss what the announcements mean for design systems folks - from code on the canvas, to agents, skills, and connectors, to Figma Motion. What will these announcements mean for the work we do day to day?

Show notes




⁠⁠Is driving adoption just a polite way of begging07 Jul 202600:40:18

Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience.

Adoption has been the perennial curse of design systems. Always a problem, never quite fixed, and loads of opinions about how to do it. But are we approaching it in the right way? Michelle and Luke talk about the problem with how adoption has been positioned, whether it's a tactical or cultural thing, and whether the goal should sit with design systems teams or the wider org.

Show notes


If AI can generate your design system docs, what does that say about how valuable those docs were in the first place?22 Jun 202600:43:10

Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience.

The State of AI in Design Systems report came out recently, and it shows that everyone is using AI to create documentation. Is this a good thing? Luke and Seb dive into the question of what good documentation is, whether it's even relevant anymore and what parts we should let AI own, and the parts we need to protect.


Is Figma holding design systems back?26 May 202600:46:28
Is Figma holding design systems back?


Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience.

It's the month before Config! So we're diving into a spicy topic - is Figma helping or hindering design systems? Is the future of design systems a world where Figma doesn't exist? Or are design tools like Figma essential for the work we do in design systems day to day?

Show notes


How do you make developers to care about your design system?12 May 202600:37:09
Episode 54 - How do you make developers to care about your design system?


Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience.

Getting developers interested in the design system still seems to be a challenge for a lot of design system teams in 2026. So how do you get them interested in what you're doing? Do you need to bribe them with snacks? Luke and Michelle discuss ways to get engineers on board, why it's essential, and common pitfalls with design systems sans developers.

Show notes

  • None this week


Is a design system mandate worth fighting for?28 Apr 202600:40:30
Episode #53 - Is a design system mandate worth fighting for?


Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience.

The Design System Report this year suggested that the number one thing design system teams with low adoption rates were missing was a company mandate. However, is that really the thing you should be fighting for? Or is your time better spent focusing on something else? Luke and Michelle will dive into what actually drives good adoption, and whether a mandate is just a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Show notes


Does your design system need a PM?31 Mar 202600:40:46
Episode 52 - Does your design system need a PM?


Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience. Time for the hot takes - do design systems need product management? Or is it something that just gets in the way and stops work happening?

Show notes




What do you actually test?17 Mar 202600:34:43
Episode 51 - What do you actually test?


Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience.

Once you've done a first pass on anything in your design system, how do you validate it? Do you create complicated automated tests to ensure absolute consistency? Or do you even put it in front of real people to make sure it works?

Show notes


Do MCPs care more about patterns or components?03 Mar 202600:47:05

Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience.

Now we're in the business of creating context for AI (ew), what is actually important when we're creating documentation that will be used by machines AND humans? Are detailed component guidelines important? Are the foundations essential to get right? Or can we rely on top-level patterns and vague guidance?

Show notes


Are we delighting enough in our design systems?17 Feb 202600:41:00

Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience.

Design systems kill creativity, right? We've heard that said so many times. But are we actually taking the time to inject joy into the system itself? Not only considering it as a part of the process for what we include in the system, but also in how we do documentation, release notes, and general communication around the design system? Or controversially... is it even important?

Show notes

Do our design systems give new joiners anxiety?03 Feb 202600:32:55

Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience.

Set the scene - you've joined a new company as a product designer or engineer, and you're confronted with a massive system, with custom naming and opaque decisions. Queue anxiety. So how do we make our design systems easy to understand, and make them a strength for onboarding new joiners?

Show notes

What will happen in design systems in 2026?20 Jan 202600:39:41

Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience.

It's time to peer into the crystal ball and predict what's coming up for design systems this year and further out. Will AI take all our jobs? Are design systems becoming a thing of the past? Will we finally kill all creativity? Or are we still plodding along to general adoption?

Show notes

  • No show notes this episode!




What's with the emotional baggage with design systems?06 Jan 202600:37:35

Design system folks seem to be prone to burnout, arguments, and generally feeling underappreciated within their organizations. What makes design systems folks so prone to being loaded with additional weight? We discuss why this happens, as well as some strategies to overcome it.

Show Notes

Brad Frost - “Master design systems governance with this one weird trick: bradfrost.com/blog/post/master-design-system-governance-with-this-one-weird-trick/

Are we reducing complexity with design systems??23 Dec 202500:32:01

Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience.

Time to get spicy... One of the big promises of the hype of design systems was that it would reduce organizational and product complexity by providing efficient, replicable ways of doing things. Now that we've bedded in, its time to ask - how much do design systems actually reduce complexity? Do they just reorganize and make complexity more palatable?

Show notes

Episode 44 - Should we care about consistency?09 Dec 202500:46:53

Live recording of the fortnightly podcast Design Systems WTF (back for season two!), where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with a Q&A from the live audience.

A bit of a deep topic this week – how important is consistency as a concept to be aiming for with design systems? Obviously, it's one of our design systems' selling points, but in a world where we're moving more and more towards browserless, how important is component consistency, or can we see a place where foundational consistency is all we need?

Show notes

Are we finally at the point of contextual documentation? 25 Nov 202500:39:44

Season 2 Episode 1

Design Systems WTF is the fortnightly podcast where Luke Murphy and Michelle Chin attempt to combat all the amazing wtf in design systems. In each episode, they answer a single question around design system troubles with Q&A from the live audience.

We took a few months off and y'all went and changed everything... We dive into the wonderful world of contextual design systems. Do MCPs finally offer what we need to make our design systems serve information up contextually? Are there major things we need to refactor? Or is it all smoke and mirrors?

Show notes: 




Can you actually measure the ROI of a component?02 Jun 202500:24:19

Selling the value of your design system to folks who don't necessarily understand it is a difficult and thankless task. But are we trying to sell in the right things? Is it possible to put the value of our design system against the bottom line, and how far down the stack can we go? Can we actually put a dollar sign against a single component?

Should designers know how to code?19 May 202500:29:45

The age old question – should designers know how to code? Or more specifically, how much should designer know when it comes to code? Considering it's the medium that we're designing for, it's still surprising how much this topic splits opinion. Luke and special guest Rob Whitfield will dive into the pros and cons, and give some practical advice if you did want to delve into the witchcraft that engineers do.

Are accessibility guidelines enough to be inclusive?05 May 202500:25:28

Making your design system as inclusive as possible is something that I think we all agree on. However, for most systems teams, this means creating some accessibility guidelines and then ticking it off the list. Is this enough? Is there more we can be doing?

Are design systems a dead end?21 Apr 202500:31:22

Inspired by Luke's article on the death of design systems, Michelle and Luke dive into whether design systems have a future... are we at a natural point of evolution or are design systems going to go the way of the dinosaurs?

How big is too big for a design system?07 Apr 202500:27:26

How big is too big? Is there a point where your design system just becomes unwieldy? Luke and Michelle dive into this question from a previous episode, and try and figure out how you keep your design system to a manageable size. Or is that just a nice problem to have, and we should embracing our systems to grow to the size they need to be?

When is OK to snowflake?25 Mar 202500:25:44

Detach instance is a concept that has stuck fear into the hearts of design systems folks since the beginning. However, there are definitely instances where it’s totally ok to snowflake components! How should you deal with snowflakes in your system? How does this play into your overall view on flexibility, and can you actually use snowflakes as a way to determine what you should be working on?

How much is too much documentation?17 Feb 202500:27:01

Sometimes we may feel the urge to include everything in our documentation, to the point where it rivals Lord of the Rings for length and density. However, we may be doing ourselves a disservice! How much is too much documentation? How much is not enough documentation? Do we even need documentation at all? join us for the last Design Systems WTF of the year!

Where should design systems sit in your org?03 Feb 202500:29:41

Design systems should sit in the design team. Design systems should sit in the designops team. Design systems should sit in their own team. There are so many different options that are presented as the ‘truth’ when it comes to design systems and org design. Michelle and Luke are going to wade through the options, weigh up their merits and probably tear the entire thing down to the ground by the end of the half hour.

Should we get rid of infinite scroll?20 Jan 202500:27:41

Infinite scroll was designed to enhance the UX for browsing search results, but now it's often used to keep users endlessly engaged on social media. As concerns grow about its impact on mental health, especially among young people, it's time to reconsider its place in design systems. What responsibilities do we have as creators when our components contribute to these issues? In this episode, we’ll examine the ethical considerations of infinite scroll and other components, exploring how we can design more responsibly and promote healthier user experiences.

Do design systems make teams go faster?06 Jan 202500:29:11

Design systems are often hailed as the ultimate productivity boosters for devs and designers alike, but do they really deliver on that promise? We’ll explore whether design systems genuinely make teams more efficient or if they just add another layer of complexity. Tune in for a reality check on the true impact of design systems on team performance!

Why isn’t contribution the answer?18 Dec 202400:28:59

Contribution often seems like the perfect solution for scaling design systems, but is it really? We'll weigh the tough realities of managing contributions and why a federated system might not suit everyone. We'll explore the hurdles of contribution and how to decide if it's the right path for your team.

Live from Converge 2025: When should we be using AI? 06 Dec 202400:26:48

Luke and Michelle come to you direct from Converge to talk about AI (again). Is there a place for AI in our design systems? 

Why aren’t people contributing to the design system?31 Oct 202400:30:12

If you're struggling to get contributions to your design system, you might think it’s a governance issue. But it might not be the real issue. In this episode, we'll consider why people aren't contributing and examine factors beyond governance that might be preventing contributions. We’ll discuss the motivations and barriers that impact participation and how to foster a thriving contributor community.

Where can AI actually help with design systems?23 Oct 202400:27:18

We're cutting through the AI hype and getting to the good stuff—practical ways AI can supercharge your design system. From streamlining workflows to generating documentation, we'll explore real-world applications of AI that can make your life easier. Plus, we’ll guide you through creating a custom GPT to assist with your design system needs. Are you leveraging AI to its full potential, or are you stuck in the buzzword bubble? Join us for insights and strategies to make AI work for you!

Live from Hatch: Do we need to stop making components?18 Oct 202400:41:08

In this episode, we’re challenging the status quo of design systems by questioning the necessity of components. Are we too focused on building and maintaining a library of components when we should be thinking bigger? What if our obsession with components is actually holding back innovation? Join us as we explore whether it’s time to shift our attention away from components and consider new ways to build flexibility, scalability, and creativity into our design systems.

Why do we need to care more about patterns?05 Sep 202400:26:48

In this episode, we’re focusing on patterns, the often-overlooked pillar of your design system. Why should we focus on patterns more than components? Are your components really as reusable as you think, or are they just static building blocks without a solid pattern to guide them? 

How should we version design systems?14 Aug 202400:26:09

In this episode, we explore the enigma that is design system versioning. How do we make sense of versioning? How do you sync versions between code, design, and documentation? Maybe it’s easier to ignore versioning, but at what cost? 

Has AI made everyone a designer? A spicy conversation with Pablo Stanley31 Jul 202400:29:49

AI tools are transforming the landscape, making it easier than ever to create and design. Is this making everyone a designer? Will design system makers have to herd even more cats? We’ll be joined by special guest Pablo Stanley, the brilliant co-founder of two AI-based design tools, Musho and Lummi. We’ll unpack the potential of AI-based design tools and some risks. 

WTF happened at Config?18 Jul 202400:29:07

In this episode, we’re diving into the buzzworthy announcements and new feature releases that have the design community talking. We’ll share our opinions and insights on how these changes will impact design systems and workflows. Whether you missed the event or want a fresh perspective, tune in to catch up on all the highlights and WTF moments from Config!

How do you prove the value of design systems?04 Jul 202400:28:40

We tackle the fundamental question: “How do you prove the value of design systems?” What kind of metrics work? Why does the math seem so fuzzy? Are there any valid measurements? Based on our experiences and what we’ve seen with other teams, we share our thoughts and hot takes when it comes to advocating and validating your design system efforts.

They downsized the design system team; how do we survive?21 Jun 202400:25:47

We navigate the challenges and uncertainties that arise when a design system team undergoes downsizing or restructuring. How do the design system team and teams who use the design system cope in this situation? We explore strategies for resilience, collaboration, and innovation in the face of adversity and discover how to thrive amidst organizational changes.

What’s keeping design systems people up at night?05 Jun 202400:33:21

In this episode, we answer some interesting design system questions from the Internet. With Luke away, Dave, our Developer Advocate, will joins Michelle. Sharing insights from a developer and designer perspective, respectively. Will Dave and Michelle see eye to eye or will we agree to disagree?

Should Figma be the source of truth?23 May 202400:27:17

Figma is currently dominating the design landscape and with good reason. They’ve taken what we’ve done with product and UX design and allowed us to do so much more than we used to be able to. With the release and continued improvement of Dev Mode, they’re hoovering up more use cases and raising the question: are we happy with a design tool being the source of truth for all product teams?

Is using a pre-built frontend library realistic?17 May 202400:26:36

Today we ask, “Is using a pre-built frontend library realistic?” We look into the pros and cons of leveraging frontend libraries such as MUI, Tailwind, or Ant Design for your design system. Are these libraries a shortcut to success, or do they come with hidden complexities and limitations? Tune in as we dissect the practicality, scalability, and long-term implications of adopting these pre-built solutions for your product.

Future-proofing your design system23 Apr 202400:25:30

Design systems should reflect what’s currently in your product, but it’s tempting to future-proof them. After all, getting the system up and running was a lot of work, so what’s the harm in adding a few new things? Future us will thank our past selves, right?

How do we get past the MVP state?17 Apr 202400:27:21

We examine that critical phase in the life of a design system: moving beyond the Minimum Viable Product (MVP). Launching an MVP is just the beginning, but what comes next? Michelle and Luke discuss strategies for advocating for more resources, ensuring your work is recognized and adequately resourced, and not just seen as a “free” addition from your team. Drawing from our own experiences and those of other teams, we share practical advice on selling your design system’s ongoing value to stakeholders. 

Building delight into your design system20 Mar 202400:28:44

We tackle a question that often gets overlooked in the world of design systems: Is there room for fun and delight? Sure, components are the workhorses of design systems, known for their functionality and consistency, but does that mean they have to be dull? We’ll explore the possibilities of infusing a bit of charm and personality into your design system. Listen in as we discuss examples of some of the more fun design systems in action, the challenges of maintaining usability while injecting creativity, and how to strike the right balance.

Building a Global Design System06 Mar 202400:26:54

We dive into the ambitious idea proposed by Brad Frost: creating a global design system for everyone to use. Imagine a world where companies don’t reinvent the wheel with every component they create, but instead, contribute to and utilize a shared set of resources. We tackle the big questions: Where do we start in building such a universal system? How do we address hesitations and resistance in the community? What are the potential risks and unseen challenges? 

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