Explore every episode of the podcast Defending Democracy with Malcolm Turnbull

Recorded at Malcolm Turnbull’s Sovereignty and Security forum held in Canberra.

Is Trump 2.0 an aberration, or a seismic 8 on the Richter scale of international relations? We cannot grit our teeth and ride this out. We must confront reality. 

Professor James Curran reminds us of the history between Australia and America, and what it can tell us about our future prospects. These are the closing remarks to the Sovereignty and Security forum.

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Recorded at Malcolm Turnbull’s Sovereignty and Security forum held in Canberra.

This panel examines how Australia pursues its national interest in a “might is right” world, and if we should work with other countries to mitigate the economic damage from Trump’s tariff war. 

Panellists include: Professor the Hon Gareth Evans AC KC FASSA FAIIA, Cabinet Minister throughout the Hawke-Keating governments, and Australian National University Chancellor 2010-19; Professor Shiro Armstrong, professor of economics at ANU, Director of the Australia-Japan Research Centre, Editor of the East Asia Forum, and Director of the East Asian Bureau of Economic Research; Dr Alan Dupont AO, graduate of the Royal Military College Duntroon and the US Foreign Service Institute, and has worked extensively at the interface of security, politics, business and technology;  John McCarthy AO FAIIA,former Ambassador to Vietnam, Mexico, Thailand, the United States of America, Indonesia, Japan and High Commissioner to India, is currently a Vice Chancellor’s Fellow at Melbourne University.

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How can we build a society where different opinions are met with curiosity and understanding? 

Dame Louise Richardson is a counter-terrorism expert, author and the President of the Carnegie Corporation of New York, and she has some thoughts. 

In this episode, Dame Louise and Malcolm argue how our environments can bring people back to the centre, reduce division, and inoculate against extremism. 

Dame Louise believes the public is less divided than politicians would lead you to believe, but the American political system and broader media ecosystem do not encourage moderation.

So, what can we learn from unifying institutions like the BBC and NHS? How can universities create space for people to disagree and understand? And is it possible to bring an increasingly partisan United States back together? 

Available on LiSTNR

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Donald Trump's MAGA movement has inspired a following of non-college-educated, working-class Republican voters; but it's also had a profound impact on Republican policy.  

Ben Ginsberg is a Republican lawyer who wrote Lost, Not Stolen: The Conservative Case that Trump Lost and Biden Won the 2020 Presidential Election. He says the Republican party would be better off arguing for conservative policy solutions rather than pandering to Donald Trump's personalised wishes.

Malcolm and Ben discuss the challenges faced by electoral officials in the US and why defending electoral integrity is crucial for maintaining faith in the electoral process and ensuring a peaceful transfer of power. 

They also discuss what America would look like under Trump 2.0, including the Heritage Foundation's manifesto of Project 2025 and Trump's vengeance towards his political opponents.

Available on LiSTNR

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Could a Trump 2.0 bring more blatant and dangerous violations of the norms and rules of democracy than we've seen before?

Larry Diamond, a Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institute at Stanford University, has dedicated his life to the cause of liberal democracy.

Malcolm and Larry discuss the success of centrist candidates in Australia, which is improbable in America because of a combination of primary elections, the sore loser rule and first-past-the-post voting.

They discuss how, in 2020, Alaska ended partisan primaries and adopted rank-choice voting (preferential voting), allowing more moderate candidate Lisa Murkowski to emerge victorious. 

Available on LiSTNR 

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In a world of social media echo chambers, misinformation and partisan media, the lines between truth and lies are blurrier than ever.

Jonathan Rauch knows this well - he's the author of The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth, which describes the crisis in our society, in which we are no longer divided based on different opinions but on other realities.

Malcolm and Jonathan discuss the norms and rules of reality-based politics and journalism and how communities interact to seek the truth.

Rauch argues that left-wing-cancel culture and right-wing disinformation are now each other's best friends.  Truth in politics is on the ballot in November.

Available on LiSTNR

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As the US election looms, Malcolm talks to Eric H. Holder, Jr., about the United States electoral system, how it compares to Australia, and the significant challenges to democracy the US faces today.

Eric H. Holder Jr, served as the 82nd Attorney General of the United States of America from 2009 to 2015 in the Obama Administration. 

Holder argues that the health of a democracy can be measured by the number of people who can easily engage in the electoral process.

America has voluntary voting and a system that allows state legislatures to draw district boundaries through gerrymandering. This practice significantly distorts the political landscape and skews representatives to the left and right, making the primary the main contest for a safe seat.

Malcolm and Eric delve into the intricacies of the US election process, discussing the role of the Electoral College and its implications for the presidential race, particularly for Joe Biden.

Available on LiSTNR

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Barbara Walter has been part of a CIA task force looking at predictive models for where civil wars might break out around the world. As the task force looked closely at the data, they discovered that the two most predictive factors were well-established in America.   
 
Barbara says the 2024 U.S. Presidential election is a genuine trigger for violence, and if the U.S. does not change its course, it could end up in a second civil war.  
 
Malcolm talks to Barbara about what leads modern democracies toward violence and what can be done to avert a second civil war in the United States.  

Available on Listnr 

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What do you do when a country suddenly falls into darkness?   

Afghan Australian businessman Saad Mohseni is Chairman, Chief Executive, and CEO of Moby Group, which runs Afghanistan's 24/7 Tolo News channel. 

Saad is widely applauded for advancing press freedom and defending women's rights; Time Magazine recognized him in 2011 as one of the 100 most influential people in the world.    

In this episode, Saad relives the chaotic 48 hours inside his Tolo news network when the Taliban took over as U.S. forces pulled out.  

Malcolm and Saad alsodiscuss how the Australian war crimes investigation and the Ben Roberts Smith defamation case were reported inside Afghanistan. And how the remaining Tolo news journalists continue to report on women's rights.   

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Climate change and the decline of democracy are two global crises that have come to a head in recent years. Transitioning to green energy is key to tackling both.  
 
Can we make enough progress fast enough to save the planet and democracy?  
 
Energy security expert Anna Mikulska discusses how Vladimir Putin weaponised gas for decades before the ground invasion of Ukraine and warns that Europe is not yet clear from danger.  
 
Malcolm and Anna discuss if the transition to clean energy could save European democracies from Russian aggression as well as save the planet.  

Available on Listnr 

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Who are the new autocrats and what’s their playbook?  

We are now living in the era of the strongman - and every dictator has built on the accomplishments of his predecessors.

Hitler watched Mussolini, and Gaddafi learned from Lt Col Gamal Abdul Nasser.

So why, despite the evidence of history, do strongmen still hold such appeal for us? What does the playbook reveal about  Donald Trump’s run for the 2024 Presidency? 

Malcolm talks with Ruth Ben-Ghiat, Author of Author, Strongmen: Mussolini to the Present about how the new high-tech autocrats are gaining popularity.  

Available on Listnr.

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Congressman Adam Kinzinger reflects on the toxicity that has overtaken the United States and why it’s almost certain Donald Trump will be the Republican Presidential nominee.

What would a Trump 2.0 Presidency look like and what does this mean for the allies and democracy around the world?

Available on LiSTNR

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Recorded at Malcolm Turnbull’s Sovereignty and Security forum held in Canberra.

In the absence of support from America, should Australia adopt an Echidna Strategy - friendly to those who don’t mean us harm, and spikey and indigestible to those who do? 

This panel discusses the big question of whether Australia can defend itself’, and how. 

Panellists include: Sam Roggeveen, Director at the Lowy Institute, and author of The Echidna Strategy: Australia’s Search for Power and Peace, senior strategic analyst at the Office of National Assessments, an analyst in the Defence Intelligence Organisation; Major General Mick Ryan AM (Rtd), served for 35 years in the Australian Army including in East Timor, Iraq and Afghanistan as well as on the U.S. joint staff in Washington DC. Because of his writing about the war in Ukraine, and support for its efforts, Mick was sanctioned by the Russian government in 2022; Professor (Brigadier Retd) Ian Langford PhD DSC and Bars served for more than 31 years in the Australian Defence Force as a senior military officer. He is the Executive Director of Security & Defence PLuS, a research initiative between Kings College London, Arizona State University and the University of New South Wales.

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How is artificial intelligence reshaping the battlefield?

As a teenager, Palmer Luckey designed the Oculus Rift, a virtual reality headset he then founded Oculus VR and sold it to Facebook for $2.3b.

Now he is bringing the ingenuity of Silicon Valley to defence technology. Founder of Anduril Industries Palmer is on a mission to reshape our defence forces. Find out how his technologies are helping Ukrainians fight against Vladimir Putin.

In this episode, Malcolm and Palmer discuss if killer robots will save or destroy us.

Available on Listnr

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Even the founders of generative AI ChatGPT say they are “super nervous” about how autocrats will use the platform.  This new release of artificial intelligence has the potential to unleash disinformation at a pace and scale that is unprecedented.  We won’t be able to fact-check ourselves of this problem.

Malcolm Turnbull talks to one of the world's leading voices on AI Toby Walsh, Author of Machines Behaving Badly.

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Should Tik Tok be banned for Australian users? Is our social media data safe? How much power do foreign-owned apps have in a free and open society?

Last year the Australian government banned TikTok from staff devices over security concerns, while many experts say it should be banned full-stop. Still, over seven million Australians log on each month.  

Justin Bassi is the executive director of the Australian Strategic Policy Institute. He was also Malcolm Turnbull's national security advisor when he was prime minister. In this episode, he explains why Tik Tok poses such a great threat.

Available now on Listnr.

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Democracy around the world is being challenged from forces within and afar. Autocrats are gaining momentum and the release of generative AI models like ChatGPT could play to their advantage. 
Join Malcolm Turnbull in his podcast, Defending Democracy as we open up a discussion about the future of democracy. Hear how insiders are thinking about the challenges and ultimately how we chart a pathway to a more secure and peaceful world.

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Rupert Murdoch's Fox News has settled with Dominion for $787.5 USD; he's also fired the network's most popular host Tucker Carlson.

Former Guardian newspaper editor, Alan Rusbridger and Malcolm Turnbull have both known Rupert Murdoch for decades. In this episode, they unpack the chaos inside the network and evaluate the carnage wrought by the reckless embrace of Donald Trump’s big lie.   

Alan Rusbridger was the editor of the Guardian for over 20 years and during that time he took on Rupert Murdoch when no one else would. Journalists at the Guardian uncovered the infamous phone hacking scandal in the United Kingdom that led to the Leveson Inquiry and the closure of one of Rupert Murdoch’s flagship properties News of the World.

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Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger took the infamous phone call from Donald Trump in which he repeatedly urged him to alter the outcome of the 2020 presidential vote.

A fellow Republican, Secretary Raffensperger stood up to Trump but after the call he was doxxed and his family received death threats.

A grand jury is now considering whether to charge Trump for crimes against Georgia’s electoral laws. Malcolm Turnbull and Brad Raffensperger discuss elections, politics and Trump. 

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In a rare interview, former British Prime Minister Theresa May speaks with Malcolm Turnbull about the state of democracy in Europe.

As British Prime Minister at the time of the successful Brexit referendum, it fell to Theresa May to lead her country out of the European Union. When her own Conservative Party voted against the withdrawal deal for the third time she resigned as PM. 

May reflects on the Brexit vote and speculates on what Putin will mean for the future of democracy in Europe.  Available now on LiSTNR.

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Almost exactly two years on from the January 6 attacks in the U.S., a similar attack took place in Brazil. Brazil shares some of Australia’s electoral mechanics including compulsory voting and an independent electoral commission. 

So why has Australia moved to the centre while Brazil has shifted so dramatically to the right? What’s the future of democracy in the South American nation? And what does it mean for us here in Australia?

Available now on LiSTNR.

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Drug wars, death threats and disinformation. 

This is the story of how journalist and Nobel Peace Prize winner, Maria Ressa, stood up to a dictator, the Philippine president Rodrigo Duterte. Maria’s reporting on the Philippines’’ war on drugs and killings has seen her on the receiving end of death threats and legal cases designed to silence her. But she won’t stop. Why? Maria talks with Malcolm Turnbull about what it takes to fight back.

Audio clips from this podcast were from Ramona Diaz's Frontline documentary  'A Thousand Cuts’.

Available now on LiSTNR.

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The majority of Republicans in the U.S. still don’t believe Joe Biden won the 2020 election.Can the United States find a way out of the lies and anger-tainment chaos? And is anyone safe from the online mob? Nina Jankowicz briefly led President Biden’s newly established Disinformation Governance Board before an online disinformation attack forced her out of the job. Veteran Homeland Security official John Cohen says the language we’re seeing today isn’t too dissimilar to that used by Hitler. 

Available now on LiSTNR.

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Recorded at Malcolm Turnbull’s Sovereignty and Security forum held in Canberra.

This panel discusses the viability of AUKUS in its current form, and what needs to change to deliver sovereign undersea warfare capabilities that Australia can afford to own and man.

Panellists include: Dennis Richardson AO, served as Secretary of Defence, Secretary of Foreign Affairs, was the Director General of the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation (ASIO) for almost a decade to 2005, and was the Australian Ambassador to the United States for 5 years until 2010; Jennifer Parker, served for 20 years with the Royal Australian Navy, specialising in Principal Warfare Officer. She was second in command of the HMAS Darwin, our guided missile frigate; Rear Admiral Peter D Briggs AO OAM  served in the Royal Australian Navy for 40 years, specialising as a submarine operator. He was in Command of HMAS Stirling, and was Head of Submarine Capability resolving Collins introduction into service issues.

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Donald Trump, riots, an attempted insurrection - things aren’t looking good for the Republican Party.

Former Republican congressman Adam Kinzinger was inside the U.S. Capitol on January 6 when rioters attempted a coup. He voted to impeach Donald Trump and sat on the January 6 Committee to investigate the deadly attacks. Malcolm Turnbull speaks with Adam Kinzinger about the perfect storm that led to the January 6 attacks, why it still matters, two years on, and what’s next for the GOP.

 Available now on LiSTNR.

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How did they do it? And will they pull it off? Australia’s 2022 election ran against the international trend. A group of mostly female independents - the Teals - were elected on a ticket of action on climate change and integrity in politics.

Member for Wentworth, Allegra Spender & Member for Warringah, Zali Steggall sit down with Malcolm Turnbull to share how they unseated their opponents Dave Sharma and Tony Abbott, and what needs to change in Australian politics. 

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Democracy around the world is in decline. From authoritarian governments to misinformation campaigns, the greatest threats to our democracies are no longer external, but from within. Former Australian Prime Minister, Malcolm Turnbull, hosts the brand new podcast Defending Democracy.

Over six episodes, Mr Turnbull speaks to leaders across the globe and at home. Join him as he delves deep into the chaos of the last few years: unpacking some of the world's biggest political stories from those on the front lines.

Hear Defending Democracy with Malcolm Turnbull on Listnr, March 6. 

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Recorded at Malcolm Turnbull’s Sovereignty and Security forum held in Canberra.

This panel discusses the nature of the security threats Australia faces, and reassesses the assumptions that have informed our economic, foreign and defence policies. 

Panellists include: Professor Hugh White, Emeritus Professor of Strategic Studies at ANU, founding Director of ASPI, worked for several Labor Leaders, and served in the Defence Department; Dr Geoff Raby, Australia’s Ambassador to China from 2007-11, served as Ambassador to the WTO in Geneva, and Ambassador to APEC; Dr Heather Smith, Secretary and Deputy Secretary across a range of portfolios, including Deputy Director-General of the Office of National Intelligence, and co-led the 2024 Independent Review of Australia’s National Intelligence Community. 

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Is our affection for America and Americans blinding us to the reality that Trump’s political values are more aligned to the “might is right”  world view of Putin than they are to ours in Australia? 

Malcolm Turnbull’s opening remarks to the Sovereignty and Security forum held in Canberra with over 100 national security and foreign policy experts to discuss policies including the AUKUS submarine project, trade, defence and regional diplomacy.

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Malcolm is on the ground in the US in the final days of the battle for the White House.

The race is tight. If Donald J Trump wins, what would a second term look like? What would it mean for Australia?

With the prospect of Trump riding back into Washington for another four years, Malcolm tells the story of his own interactions with Trump and how he knew immediately the best strategy to adopt to take on a notorious bully.

This is an incredible insight from a former prime minister who dealt directly with the man who could soon become the most powerful leader in the free world again.

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The clock of war is ticking in Taiwan – and it’s up to the west to stop it.

Matt Pottinger worked as a reporter for the Wall Street Journal in China. He's a former U.S. Marine who served in Iraq and Afghanistan and was President Trump's Deputy National Security Advisor. 

In recent decades, Taiwan has cemented itself as a cornerstone of technological manufacturing, producing chips essential to almost every aspect of modern life. It is also of immense geographical importance in the region and vital to international trade routes. 

The government in Taiwan, still called the Republic of China,  does not dare to declare itself an independent Taiwan for fear of provoking an invasion from mainland China. 

In this episode, Matt Pottinger calls for urgent and deliberate action—in the form of military hard power—to stop China from invading Taiwan and prevent a geopolitical catastrophe for the world. 

Available on LiSTNR

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Chinese President Xi Jinping's unshakable determination to unite mainland China and Taiwan is one of our most significant threats to geopolitical stability. 

Shirley Lin, a Taipei native, is the founder and chair of the Center for Asia Pacific Resilience and Innovation, or CAPRI. For decades, she's been at the forefront of defending democracy in Taiwan, a testament to the island's unwavering spirit. 

In this episode, she delves into the evolution of Taiwan's identity, the soft power China has employed in attempts to sway the people of Taiwan, and the influence of the US policy of ambiguity. 

While international observers might expect the war for Taiwan to be won in a military battle, she asserts that it is already being fought in the hearts and minds of its people. 

Available on LiSTNR

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The potential of a second Trump Presidency has far-reaching implications, particularly in Europe.

Cecilia Malmstrom is a Swedish-born politician elected to the European Parliament in 1999, later serving as European commissioner for trade and as European commissioner for home affairs. 

When Trump was elected, Cecilia promoted free trade worldwide, including an EU/Australia free trade deal when the President imposed tariffs on steel and aluminium.

In this episode, Malcolm and Cecilia discuss how immigration and globalisation polarise communities, the threat of right-wing populism to the European Union, and the importance of international cooperation in addressing global challenges like Ukraine. 

Available on LiSTNR

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