Alexandre Gabriel (Instagram) is the owner of Maison Ferrand, which produces products like Citadelle Gin, Ferrand Cognac, and Planteray Rum (formerly Plantation Rum). Several years ago, among many conversations about rum, Alexandre realized that no one could tell him with great clarity about the rules and history of Navy Rum.

He decided to get to the bottom of things and commissioned the author and enthusiast Matt Pietrek to get to the bottom of things. Matt spent time in England researching things and not only began to uncover important details but also met a gentleman named Michael Fogg, who ended up providing a world of information they came to rely upon.

This year at Tales of the Cocktail, Matt and Alexandre hosted an event to announce the release of an entire book on Navy Rum, 300 Years of Royal Navy Rum and its Techniques. It has two different sections. In one, Matt showcases the history of Navy Rum and in the other, Alexandre lays out the 7 pillars of producing it. I was fortunate to receive an advanced copy for my conversation with Alexandre, but it appears the book still has not been released. You can sign up on Matt’s website to be notified when it is released.

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To honor Michael’s contributions to the research, Alexandre named the rum “Mister Fogg Navy Rum”, as Michael has since passed away.

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Molly Horn is the Cocktail Strategy Manager for Total Wine & More, the country’s largest retailer of wine and spirits (Forbes). Molly’s responsibilities include tasting, recruiting, branding, and marketing new first-to-market spirits, as well as educating sales floor team members on spirits and mixology.

Before the pandemic, spirit sales accounted for ~27% of Total Wine’s sales. As a result of the pandemic and a growing national interest in spirits and cocktails, in some stores, spirits now account for as much as 50% according to Molly. The company created her role to help them keep up with demand and enthusiasm.

In this conversation, we talk about additive-free certifications in tequila, the NA movement, some of her guilty pleasures, how she thinks about training her staff, and more.

To the NA movement, according to Total Wine’s internal numbers, ~80% of NA sales are made to people who also drink alcohol, which helps highlight that its growth is being fueled by people who are enjoying NA products at times instead of or in addition to products with alcohol.

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Molly came to Total Wine with more than a decade of expertise developing and managing bar programs in the D.C. Metro area. She was head bartender at Farmers Restaurant Group. She is a Certified Sommelier and a judge for events like the IWSC (International Wine & Spirit Competition).

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Kip Moffitt (@kipmoffitt) is the head bartender of Superbueno (website, Instagram). A Mexican-American bar that opened for just over a year in Manhattan’s East Village and was just awarded the #2 spot on North America’s 50 Best Bars list.

The genesis of the bar came from Ignacio “Nacho” Jimenez (@hopignacio) and explores the intersections he has experienced as a resident of New York who is from Mexico.

Kip and I talked about Mexican brandies coming on the market, particularly one he likes from Tosba. They use one in their Green Mango Martini. We also discussed their margarita, which contains a mushroom called “huitlacoche” that grows on corn.

A fun fact about their menu is that their most “sciency” cocktail as Kip put it, is their Vodka Y Soda cocktail. While you should definitely listen to my conversation with Kip first if you want to go in-depth on the Vodka Y Soda, check out Nacho’s conversation on the Cocktail College podcast.

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Jeremy Wochnick and Erin Nysse work for The Barrel Mill (website, Instagram), a barrel cooperage in Minnesota. We met when they were exhibiting at the American Craft Spirits Association’s conference in Denver this year and had a great conversation. They agreed to sit down to talk all things barrels, infusion spirals, sustainability, and more.

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While I am pretty darn educated on spirits and cocktails, I am a geek for unaged spirits, so I don’t know as much about aged spirits as I should. Thankfully, Erin and Jeremy gave me a crash course.

I used one of their infusion spirals to attempt a reposado-ish tequila. It says the spiral will impart flavor for roughly two weeks, but I found that after 24-ish hours it had taken on nice aromas and flavor without running over the tequila’s vegetal and earthy essence.

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Last week Mexican authorities raided the home and office of Tequila Matchmaker (TM), also known as the Additive Free Alliance. For many years, their forum has been a place for agave distillate fanatics to visit along with their work to certify tequilas that are free of approved additives that are not required to be listed on a bottle’s label.

Their work has begun to affect sales of major brands that are not shown to be additive-free. One agave influencer, @tequilajaybaer, cited 9 and 14 percent drops in sales of Casamigos and Don Julio respectively (see it here).

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The situation is complex. Not simple. Some people say that the push for additive-free tequila is overshadowing other issues that are important like sustainable farming practices, labor wages, preservation of Mexican heritage, and more, but everyone seems to agree that Grover and Scarlet Sanschagrin of TM have been forces for good in agave. While it cannot be fully linked, it is likely the government has taken such dramatic action because powerful forces have seen their income impacted.

* Vinepair article documenting the raid

* Emma Janzen wrote a bit on the Matchmaker situation and has said more is coming.

* The history of tequila

* Support Grover and Scarlet here

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André Darlington (website, Instagram) is the author of 12 books, including the one we discussed, Cowboy Cocktails.

In 2020, André became the first cocktail writer to circumnavigate the globe since Charles H. Baker a hundred years ago. A record of his journey became Booze Cruise: A Tour of the World’s Essential Mixed Drinks.

A few things worth noting that I found fun from our conversation

• There was heavy Spanish and Mexican influence in cowboy culture. For example, the term I’ve always heard as “ten-gallon hat”, is actually “tan galan”, which means very handsome.

• In many western towns there was no shortage of luxurious goods (champagne, Grand Marnier, Chartreuse, etc.) because as people came into large amounts of money, they craved indulgences to spend them on. Pairing this with long periods of deprivation while cowboys were out on the plains, they often liked sweeter drinks. Modern-day staples like sugar and eggs were also luxuries.

• While whiskey was popular on the plains, mezcal (Tequila did not become an official designation until l1974) was common because agave is more at home in dry climates.

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Heyward Gualandi works for Root Shoot Malting (website, Instagram), a 5th-generation family farm in Loveland, Colorado. We sat down to talk about their investments that helped them leave the commodity-farming market, which is good for the business but also allows them grow more flavorful crops, which ultimately creates better tasting beer, whiskey, and food.

There is a lot of talk these days about the impact of terroir on agave and sugarcane distillates. Root Shoot wants us to know that whiskey and beer are influenced by it as well. We just haven’t farmed our grains in a way that has allowed the land to play as large of an impact. They and others are working to change that story. Working with a small farm also gives the brewer/distiller more control and visibility into the process as opposed to buying from a large wholesaler.

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As part of their commitment to the land and the future they’ve had a conservation easement placed on their land to ensure it remains farm land. Watch the short documentary produced about it and their farm.

* The grain flavor wheel that was mentioned.

* More on regenerative agriculture

* The Rye Resurgence Project

* For me, this conversation has many parallels with the interview I had with Blue Hill Farm.

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Marten Lodewijks is the Director of Consulting for the Americas for IWSR (website). So what is IWSR? What do they do? As their website says, “For over 50 years, IWSR has been the leading source of data on the global beverage alcohol market.”

We discussed the importance of data, analysis, and where the beverage industry might be headed. We also discussed the importance of not allowing data to cause analysis paralysis and the reminder that data is never perfect.

We discussed two trends that have been at play for the past twenty-plus years. Marten was quick to point out that trends have lots of nuance, so they should be studied, but also not taken as doctrine.

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* Health & Wellness: people have been and continue to be more aware of what they put into their bodies. This has led to concerns about additives, calories, and overall levels of drinking.

* With this comes the growth of the low and no-alcohol drink movements. As things often change from one generation to the next, it has been shown that younger generations are not as engaged with alcohol as a category.

* Marten and I briefly discussed the rise in Cannabis consumption. I mused how many people are simply trading one mind-altering substance for another. Marten says that data historically shows that cannabis users are lower income, but anecdotally on my end, many of the cannabis users I know do quite well financially, and are using those products much more now, and booze less than they used to.

* Premiumization: while they are not tied at the hip, premiumization and health & wellness can bounce off one another. As people aspire to be healthier, one signal for this, although not always true, is that more expensive products are often, or are at least thought to be made with better ingredients. Marten’s comments about people deciding to “Drink less but drink better” echoed those of Nicolas Palazzi of PM Spirits.

When I told Marten that a retailer in St. Louis, The Wine and Cheese Place, had begun displaying the additive-free tequila information created by Tequila Matchmaker, and that had notably shifted sales away from some of the beloved big brands he said, “I don’t doubt it.”

For me, there are a few important takeaways for smaller brands and bars

* Turn your wait staff, bartenders, or sales team into survey administrators. You already know how much you’re selling, taking time to ask customers or retailers a question or two to gain more data, may help you make better decisions.

* Turn questions into hypotheses. Marten pointed out that questions almost always lead to more questions. Turn a question into a hypothesis and then test it or use it to challenge your thinking.

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Chris Tunstall co-founded A Bar Above with his wife Julia in 2013. They were early into the online content game with their YouTube channel and broke into the podcast space in 2014, the same year they released the first online Mixology Certification course. They’ve gone on to create several other classes on subjects like batching, syrups, infusions, and more.

In 2016, they moved into the barware world, designing and manufacturing tools that looked great and more importantly, didn’t fail (or “suck”, my word) during the middle of service. Chris pointed out that because of manufacturing faults, things as basic as the 1 oz mark on a jigger, can at times be off the mark by 20%, which is wild. And even worse, what if the 1 oz mark is spot on but the 1/2 or 1/4 oz mark is? Then one measurement may be off while the other is on.

* Note: during our conversation, Chris mentioned that when he tested jiggers, Oxo was one of the worst offenders when it came to inaccurate measurement markings. Since I use them, I was alarmed. It appears that this error was corrected by the time I purchased mine. I weighed out a 1/4, 1/2, and an ounce worth of water in them in grams on my scale and they checked out.

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He also explained to me why A Bar Above’s original Boston shaker, a combination of a weighted and unweighted shaker, helps keep egg white from foaming out of the shaker, which is a problem I have faced for years.

Another flaw, as Chris pointed out, is how pieces of metal are fused. A Bar Above welds things like their jiggers and shakers completely around the perimeter. Whereas others (see photos) are only spot welded. This makes it easier for them to break or for water to seep in and ultimately corrode the tool from the outside in.

Chris also spent some time talking about the financial and social importance of bars cultivating regulars. They’ll help keep your seats filled and often make your space more welcoming, and when a bartender is in the weeds, regulars can keep each other occupied as opposed to needing to lean on the bartender for social support.

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Nicolas Palazzi is an engineer turned spirits importer. Originally from Bordeaux, France, he lives in Brooklyn, where PM Spirits (named for his father, Paul-Marie Spirits) is located.

I first became aware of PM via a Roffignac cocktail I had in New Orleans at Peychaud’s Bar. It was PM’s blanche armagnac named COBRAFIRE and a raspberry shrub. It was a stunning drink, and isn’t the branding fantastic?!

One thing Nicolas discussed during our conversation that I didn’t probe for more info on is aging additives. Even though additives are generally put into something to mask an inferior product or to speed up the process, Nicolas said there are instances where additives can be a good thing. He says a great B.S. meter for additives is, does this make the overall production process more or less expensive? You can read more about additives on PM’s blog.

Want more on Nicolas and PM? Their blog #DrinkLessDrinkBetter has a piece on his story called “Bordeaux to Brooklyn.” You can also find more in Vogue, Saveur, and The Agave Social Club podcast.

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Alex Jump (Instagram) is a founder and the senior manager of operations for Focus on Health. Prior to this, she led Death & Company’s Denver bar program.

I wanted to kick off the year with this conversation with Alex for two reasons.

One, many of us use the beginning of the year to reset our lifestyle and dietary goals and the no-and-low segment of the drinks business is thriving. Now more than ever, there are great flavors to take the place of alcohol or many wonderful ways to drink it but pull back on the ABV.

Second, beyond our physical bodies, Alex’s work has encompassed taking better care of ourselves holistically, which we also are prone to reflect on as one year closes and another begins.

A few other things

* Alex said that if you are a bar or restaurant and you are not offering a nice array of alcohol-free options - beer, wine, cocktails, etc. - you are leaving money on the table.

* Life happens at work. While we need to show up and get our work done, we can’t expect that we can always just “check it at the door”.

* Most of the alcohol-free spirits are not goig to have as rich of a texture as traditional spirits. Using a richer syrup or foamer will help make up for the density it lacks.

* Alex used the term “compounding” during our discussion about NA products. I’ve heard it but admittedly couldn’t have defined it. This means addings flavors after distillation. You can read more here if interested.

Mentions: Most Imaginative Bartender Competition, Lauren Paylor O’Brien, Drink Masters, Laura Louise Green of Healthy Pour, Chris Elford, Derek Brown of Positive Damage, Life on Mars ABV-specific cocktail menu, La Maison Wellness

No-and-low cocktail materials: Zero by The Aviary, Mindful Mixology,

A few alcohol-free products Alex mentioned: Martini & Rossi Floreale and Vibrante, Seedlip Garden, Pentire, All the Bitter

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Today you’ll hear from Asali Echols, Alex Nisnevich, and Casey Beck about the documentary they’re currently making about the past and present of tiki culture.

Mentioned: Donn Beach, Trader Vic’s, Jeff “Beachbum” Berry, Chockie Tom, Sam Miller of Acme Bar, Smuggler’s Cove

Learn more via their website and Instagram pages. You can also visit them directly on their Kickstarter page and see its trailer below

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Natasha Bahrami, aka “The Gin Girl” (Instagram) fell in love with the spirit of gin after an eye-opening experience with a dirty gin martini in her early years as a restaurateur. Since then, she has worked to expand the knowledge, experience, access, and appreciation of the gin spectrum with her guests and the world. Elevation of the spirit of gin is her priority.

Natasha is the proprietor of The Gin Room and Salve Osteria (Instagram, website) in St. Louis, MO, boasting hundreds of fine gins and an ever-changing creative cocktail list. She is also the owner of the bottle shop, Grand Spirits.

In 2015, she expanded her focus nationally, launching a robust education platform Ginworld (website), a company created to help elevate the category of gin in cities domestically and abroad. For the last 6 years, Natasha and the Ginworld Ambassadors have hosted the largest gin festivals in the United States bringing distillers, educators, and brands together to expand knowledge and experience with the spectrum of gin.

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Things I mentioned

* Visiting Demetrius Cain of Nobletons Distillery

* Podcasts from the year: My conversation with Banhez about wealth creation in the agave space, Will Elliott about Maison Premiere, Steve Grasse about building a brand, and Kevin Pigott of Tullamore D.E.W. on poetry

* What percentage of my inventory is from smaller producers?

* The article on the Sherry Renaissance

* Books: A Sense of Place by Dave Broom, The Creative Act by Rick Rubin

* In 2024 I’m going to be a judge for the American Craft Spirits Association

* Thanks to Kyle Gillespie, Tim Wiggins, Marshall Minaya, and Kiowa Bryan

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Margie Lehrman is the CEO of the American Craft Spirits Association (ACSA). She has led the organization since 2016.

So what is a craft distiller? The ACSA defines one as:

* A distillery that values the importance of transparency in distilling, and remains forthcoming regarding their use of ingredients, their distilling location and process, bottling location and process, and aging process.

* A distillery that produces fewer than 750,000 gallons annually.

* A distillery that directly or indirectly holds an ownership interest of 51% or more of the Distilled Spirit Plant (DSP) license.

In this conversation, we discussed the policy initiatives they reviewed with legislators during a recent trip to Capitol Hill (press release) including

* The conservation and preservation of White Oak, which is used for the production of many barrels.

* Allowing the postal service to transport and deliver spirits to residences in states where that it is already permitted for UPS and FedEx.

* Why ACSA supports increased funding the for Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau (TTB), which regulates the industry.

* Agritourism and its economic impact on distilleries.

We also discussed the STEPUP Foundation, which provides underserved and underrepresented individuals with training, encouragement, and opportunities to enter the craft spirits community through a comprehensive internship program.

Check out the ACSA’s website, Instagram, and their magazine.

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Mike (@barkeeping_it_real) and Janell Bass (@janelllenfertbass) are the creators of Ponyboy Slings (@drinkponyboy). They were encouraged to pursue this avenue as a result of some well-received work they did in their consulting venture, Punchbowl Project.

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We met this year at Tales of the Cocktail and had a great afternoon together. As I heard the story about how they met and ultimately, this brand was born, we decided we should record a conversation.

Their product along with some killer caipirinhas from Novo Fogo changed the way I think about canned cocktails. I knew good products were out there, but I hadn’t sought them out. At present, Ponyboy is only available in Kentucky, so you’ll have to chase them down there.

Want to know about the historical drink term “sling”? Iron Heart is the canning company they use.

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Daniel Singer (@filthydaniel) is the CEO of Filthy (website, Instagram), a company working to change the way people think about things like cocktail garnishes.

Not only did I love this conversation, but Daniel’s comments about entrepreneurship requiring a high pain tolerance and his resolve to banish negative thoughts because they are not worth the energy landed heavily on my heart.

Mentions: Julia Momosé, Kumiko, Simon Ford, Luxardo cherries, John Lermayer, Joshua Wagner, Colin Asare-Appiah, Amanda Gunderson, olives (are related to fruits like peaches and plums), Dyslexia, Lovemark

Not long before our conversation, Filthy released a campaign called “Love is in the Details.” The entire series is worthwhile, but below are several that came up.

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Hannah Sharman-Cox, Siobhan Payne, and Dan Dove are the co-founders of The Pinnacle Guide (website, Instagram). Outside of their work on Pinnacle, Hannah and Siobhan oversee London Cocktail Week and Dan runs an agency called Global Bartending.

Pinnacle is an awards program for bars inspired by the Michelin Guide. Rather than win a category, as in many other competitions, like “best hotel bar” or “best bar in [your city], Pinnacle will award an establishment one, two, or three “pins”, rather than stars, based on the caliber of execution. And winning one is not a zero-sum game. If two bars in the same part of a city demonstrate the same excellence level, both can receive a pin.

Receiving a pin is a two-part process. An establishment will nominate itself and then if the application scores well, it will be anonymously reviewed. Read more here.

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This edition came together late and therefore has no written text. I love you and thanks for listening.

If you want to know what “Sunday Service” aspires to be read this.

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Julie Figueras oversees National Brand and Trade Advocacy for CNI Brands. Alex Jandernoa is the Director of Brands and Education for CNI. We got together to talk about Banhez Mezcal and the co-op that governs it, UPADEC.

Brands/styles: teqpetztate, arroqueño, espadin, barril, tobala, karwinskii, cuishe, NETA

Miscellaneous: milpa farming, bagaso, 9 states where mezcal can be made, ensamblé vs. single varietal, Zapotec

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Hannah Williams is the beverage director of Blue Hill Farm and Donovan Ingram oversees their coffee and grain team programs among other responsibilities.

I first became aware of Blue Hill via the Netflix show “Chef’s Table”, in which chef Dan Barber is featured. His book “The Third Plate” transformed how I think about agriculture and food.

Mentions: Probitas rum, Chartreuse, BUNA coffee, Irving Farm, Real Organic Project, King Grove Blueberries, Kettl Tea, The White Moustache Yogurt, Bouchard Family Farms, Tamworth Distilling, Elmore Mountain Bread, “This is not a wine list”, Vicia

I also love Chef Dan’s conversation with Krista Tippett of On Being.

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Kristin Pike is the founder of Northern Rose Spirits, which carries products from Canada like Fundy Bay Gin and Strawberry Rhubarb Moonshine by Still Fired Distilleries, Miele Amaretto & Amermelade aperitivo by Les Spiritueux Iberville, Eau-de-vie de petit-lait by Famille Migernon.

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Kristin and I sat down to chat about her business at products at this year’s Bar Convent Brooklyn.

Learn more about the Bay of Fundy that inspired Kristin. See its record-setting tide rise and recede below.

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Kami Kenna oversees sales and marketing for Piscologia, a women-owned and produced brand out of Peru. Follow Kami and Piscologia. You can nerd out all the way be getting certified in Pisco for free.

For simplicity's sake, the following piece will focus on Peruvian Pisco with occasional notes and comparisons drawn to Chile. 

Already feeling a case of TL;DR coming on? Let me read it to you.

First things first

What is Pisco? A grape brandy that can be made in both Peru and Chile. Grape-based brandies can be made anywhere but Pisco is a protected category, much like Cognac, also a grape brandy, which can only come from the Cognac region of France.

Pisco is made like any other spirit, by fermenting an item (grain, fruit, sugarcane, agave, etc.) and then distilling it. In Peru, one or more of the allowed eight grape varietals are fermented by yeasts drinking the grape’s juice, its bi-product being wine. The jump is made from wine to brandy when the wine is boiled and its condensed distilled vapors are trapped, yielding the higher-proof yielded spirit of Pisco. Therefore, when drinking most Piscos, you will get a lot of wine notes. Distillation can take place in a variety of tin and copper stills, but Peru also employs a style of its own called a Falca.

Part of the conversation that is important to have around Pisco, is one that we’re used to having with wine. Depending on what grape(s) are used, where they are raised, and how they are fermented, can significantly impact its flavor. People who are into wine will taste different vintages from the same winery or try multiples of the same style from different wineries or regions to see how things change.

There are 3 styles of Pisco that are made in Peru: 

* Puro: a single grape varietal. This is the most popular way to drink Pisco in Peru. They are made from dryer wines.

* Mosto Verde: made from sweeter wine, thus more of a dessert style.

* Acholado: a blend that may be made from two or more Puros, or two or more Mosto Verdes.

Eight varieties of grapes can be used to make Pisco in Peru. They are classified as aromatic and non-aromatic. In a portion of Kami’s and my conversation that didn’t make the final cut, Kami points out that she thinks of them as aromatic and less aromatic.

* Aromatic: Albilla, Torontel, Italia, and Moscatel

* Less/non-aromatic: Quebranta, Uvina, Mollar, and Negra Criolla

History

Grapes arrived in Peru and Chile via the Spanish, wine being both a part of their daily life and religious ceremony. As grape harvest and wine production ramped up, much of the wine was being shipped back to Spain. To keep it from spoiling during the long journey, it was fortified with a high-proof alcohol (similar to Port, Vermouth, Sherry, Madeira, etc.). This necessitated the need to distill.

But the push to Pisco came, as with many changes, when restrictions and taxes were placed on wine from these territories, because their popularity began to threaten winemakers in Spain. Thus they lobbied the Spanish crown to protect their own interests. The people growing the grapes and making the wine experienced a crash in demand and a glut of supply. To keep the wine they’d already made from growing bad and to have a use for future grapes, Pisco was born.

While there is a romance to tradition, there are also times when it is not practical to hold on to them. A traditional way we may think of small-batch wine being made is by stomping on grapes to crush them. A more technological approach is using a press. On average, a press will yield twice as much juice, helping the vintner and distiller make better money.

Kami was quick to point out when we talked that while it is true that Europeans brought grapes to South America, the local population is the reason the industry flourished since they knew how to cultivate the land. While the equator passing along Peru’s northern border may leave us with tropical notions, the country has dramatically different climates throughout. Peru is home to the world’s second driest desert, and most of the grape production takes place in these drier regions.

Despite both being under Spanish rule for a long time, after independence came, Peru and Bolivia fell into a war with Chile (1879 to 1884) over Chile wanting to tax Bolivia when it sought to bring goods to the coast for export. Chile won this war and sentiments to this day remain strained. Who makes the real form of Pisco, Peru or Chile, is a source of tense discussion.

Diving in

When I pressed Kami for recommendations on where to start or how to go deeper, a suggestion she had was to focus on one grape varietal after you find something you like instead of rushing to explore the pantheon of flavors. There is so much out there that trying two or three of the same style, much like trying two or three pinot noirs, might give you a better idea of the spectrum of flavor contained in each grape.

Think of it like mezcal/tequila. A number of categories are looking to the success of agave as a marker for what is possible. Pisco, like mezcal, is an unaged spirit (except for some in Chile). The craze around mezcal and people being interested in unique vintages is what Pisco hopes to capitalize on as it rolls out unique vintages.

To the cocktail end of things, in Meehan’s Bartender Manual, Jim Meehan writes,

“In my experience, blends containing nonaromatic grapes such as Quebranta are necessary to balance the floral varieties that lend structure in cocktails like the Pisco Sour and Pisco Punch.”

You should give the Pisco Sour and Pisco Punch a whirl, since I’m writing this in the middle of summer and highly recommend you try the refreshing ginger-ale-based Chilcano. It pre-dates the Pisco Sour by decades and is built in a glass rather than requiring a shaker, allowing the Pisco to shine.

Want to read more?

* The final third of Spirits of Latin America covers Pisco

* Kami mentioned The South American Wine Guide during our conversation.

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Dr. Kevin Peterson (Instagram) is one of the driving forces behind the perfumery Sfumato Fragrances (website, Instagram) and Castalia Cocktails (website, Instagram) in Detroit.

Kevin landed on my radar because of his book, Cocktail Theory - A Sensory Approach to Transcendent Drinks. In addition to calling on his background in perfumery as a study of flavor, one of the things in particular that Kevin investigates is how to extend the lifetime of a drink, which involves working against the forces that can throw a drink out of its ideal state: temperature, dilution, and aeration.

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Keep up with Bill and Andria's adventures on Instagram at @St.Louis_Taverns

Read my reflection on neighborhood bars on my Substack page.

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JSS website, Instagram

10 facts about Shochu

Shochu production by region on the island of Kyushu

The State of Shochu webinar Hiromi presented in

2023 JSS Powerpoint on Shochu

Read about food pairings for Shochu

Want to dive all the way in? Pick up Christopher Pellegrini's The Shochu Handbook

Want to hear about sake? Listen to my conversation with Andrew Lamb of High Water Sake.

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Cocktail books I mention: The Book of Cocktail Ratios, The Bartender's Manifesto

Upcoming guests mentioned: Blue Hill Farm, Japan Sake and Shochu Makers Association

Today's conversation is with Jackie Williams of Bar Convent Brooklyn


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Follow Kevin on Instagram as well as Tullamore D.E.W.

Watch Kevin's video tribute to "The Lament of the Irish Pub"

See Kevin at The Buena Vista Café in San Francisco. They regularly serve over 2,000 Irish coffees a day.

As the number of celebrities aligned with brands grows, Tullamore has adopted the campaign, "Celebrity Free since 1829"

Alcohol consumption in Ireland has decreased by 32% since 2001

In the US, Irish whiskey sales are set to overtake Scotch by 2030

More on why we should not use the term "Irish Car Bomb"

The word whiskey is Gaelic in origin, Uisce Beatha, meaning "water of life"

Kevin mentioned the book The Body Keeps the Score and that he'd love to be a part-time therapist for those in the industry that can't afford it.

Are you looking for contemporary Irish music? Read this.


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Get a copy of The Book of Cocktail Ratios

Books mentioned: The Bar Book, The Cocktail Codex, The Oxford Companion to Spirits and Cocktails

We discussed his first book on Ratios focused and his book on the egg (book page on his site)

People cited: Phil Ward, Thomas Keller, Harold McGee, J. Kenji López-Alt

Ingredients noted: Absinthe, Maraschino liqueur, Lustau, Drambuie, home-made lime cordial, lactic acid

How Michael takes his martini, 6:1

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Keep up with Andrew (@lambdogg) and High Water Saké (website) (Instagram). 

Tippsy's Intro to saké, True Saké on varieties

Table rice vs. saké rice (sakamai)

More on saké's intertwined nature with Japanese tradition and culture

Places and things: Accidental bar in NYC, World Saké Day, Pan-Asia Supermarket, 'Ssippi, Ben's Tune Up, Sunflower Saké

NYT piece on saké's rising popularity in the US

People referenced: John Gauntner and Michael Tremblay

His certifications: Saké Sommelier Association and Saké Scholar

What we drank on air: Tensei's Endless Summer


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Check out Maison Premiere (website)(Instagram) and follow Will (Instagram). Their new book is The Maison Premiere Almanac.



"Do Easy" by William S. Burroughs

Pastis vs. Absinthe

Á La Louisiane is the cocktail Will says embodies Maison

Chef Daniel Boulud dropped off an antique bottle of Pernod to the Maison team

Will talked about "double jiggering". Watch bartender Tom Macy demonstrate it.

The Japanese Hard Shake

A blog piece I wrote about Maison

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Find Phil on Instagram, Twitter, watch his presentation "How the Global Drinks Business Works", and listen to his podcast conversation about NA spirits, which he says are Veblen goods (aka luxury goods).

Old Duff Genever is made at the Herman Jansen distillery, which has operated since 1777.

"Delightes for Ladies" by Sir Hugh Plat

Phil mentions attending a Beefsteak at Gage & Tollner

If you want to know what's going to happen in spirits and cocktails, read beer books from 10-20 years ago like Beer Blast and Grit & Grain.

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Give Molly a follow @whiskey.biscuit. Visit Freeland Spirits on their website and Instagram.

Molly's still "hell bitch" is made by Kothe

Molly uses a rotary evaporator to create fresher flavors

Women have more olfactory senses than men

Why corn that is less sweet is necessary for whiskey production

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Visit Plantation's website and Instagram. Follow Adrienne on Instagram.

Adrienne shared why she thinks the Sazerac is more of a bartender's drink

Tiki references: Donn Beach, Trader Vic, and Paul McGee

What esters impart upon alcohol

Plantation has voluntarily submitted itself to a Bonsucro certification.

Per Adrienne: any orientation to rum should start with Barbados. If you want to go lighter from there, try Panama. Want bolder? Try Jamaica.

Want to know more about column vs. pot distillation?

See the grades of molasses

Rum, Puerto Rico, and taxes

Read up on Adrienne's muse, the pope of trash, John Waters


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Charles Joly (website, Instagram) is a renowned mixologist, media personality, and innovative bartending entrepreneur. We met to discuss his latest collaborative venture The Riff Raff Club (website, Instagram) with Virgin Hotels.

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Charles says if you want to see more pictures of his dog Jackson, follow him on Instagram.

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Follow Steven (Instagram) and keep up with Lustau (Instagram)(website)

Some sherries are sweet like port but ~95% of what is produced is dry. The style that caught Steven's attention was the driest, Fino. If you're looking for a sherry to begin with, he suggests Amontillado. 

Yeast, referred to as "Flor", is used in the production of all wine. In biologically-aged sherries, this yeast is left in for years as the sherry ages, thus removing a greater amount of the wine's sugar, accounting for its striking dryness.

Like Champagne, Sherry can only come from a designated region in southern Spain (The Consejo Regulador).

Only 3 grape varietals are permitted for making Sherry: Palomino Fino, Moscatel, and Pedro Jiménez.

Are you looking for a place to start with Sherry in cocktails? 

• Use Fino or Manzanilla in a sour like a daiquiri in place of the rum or cut out half and substitute it in. 


• Try a Manhattan-style cocktail with Amontillado, Palo Cortado, or Oloroso in substitution for the vermouth. 

Did I mention Lustau also makes vermouth?! They're fantastic!!

I referenced Talia Baiocchi's book, Sherry.

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Follow Steve on Instagram and check out Quaker City Mercantile.

Brands mentioned: Hendrick's Gin, Sailor Jerry Rum, and Fistful of Bourbon, which are owned by William Grant & Sons. He's also worked with existing brands like Miller High Life and Guinness (see Open Gate Brewery).

Steve and Aaron Goldfarb co-authored Brand Mysticism: Cultivate Creativity and Intoxicate Your Audience. Steve's distillery Tamworth created a whiskey for the book called Dunce Whiskey, commemorating John Duns Scotus.

Influences: As If by Michael Saler, Jules Verne, Malcolm McLaren, and J. R. R. Tolkien, Starbucks has ties to Moby Dick, Disney, Star Wars, The Simpsons, Hermés, Doug Aitken


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Get in touch with MariCarmen here or on Facebook.

Tequila-producing states include Jalisco, Michoacan, Nayarit, Tamaulipas, and Guanajuato. See a map of them.

The UNESCO certification for the agave landscape.

Dia de Los Muertos (day of the dead)

Check out Tequila Matchmaker

An examination of ways to cook agave plants: oven v autoclaves v diffusers

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Learn more about Edward on his website. Find the book here.

He says the two major dangers of the modern era are distillation (blog article) and isolation (blog article)

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Ingredients and drinks that surprised me or are worth checking out

Cane & Table's Hurricane

The Sherry Cobbler 

Roffignac at Peychaud’s & Maison Premiere

Raspberry shrub recipe

Bitter gentian liqueurs: Suze and Salers



Southpaw @ Lazy Tiger

Taped holiday cocktail webinar

Need last-minute gear gifts?


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Fratelli Branca is the parent company of Fernet Branca, Carpano Antica, Punt e Mes, and other notable brands. You can find Nicola here on Instagram.

Learn about Fernet coins. "Fernet-Branca coins rapidly came to symbolize bartender community membership. They traveled across oceans and continents to the most remote corners of the world. They not only represented a momentary achievement but an authentic collectible,  jealously guarded as a status symbol and a privilege."

Amari have between 30 & 100 grams of sugar per liter. Fernet has 30 grams or less.

Fernet Cocktails: Hanky Panky, Fernet and Cola, La Petite



Want to read more? Try Amaro: The Spirited World of Bittersweet Herbal liqueurs by Brad Thomas Parsons.

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Check out The Botanist's website and on Instagram.Follow Jeff at @fatherofcupsEquipment Jeff mentions: vacuum sealer, centrifuge, rotary evaporator ("it looks like science"), dehydrator, pocket refractometer (for measuring sweetness) Jeff's house martini is a freezer martini.What in the heck is Lacto-fermentation? Learn more about genever

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Join Nicole Gilbert of J. Rieger & Co and me on November 7th for a virtual class on Thanksgiving and batching. Register here.

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Learn about Jackie and Sorel. Follow Jackie & Sorel on Instagram.

What's in Sorel? North African hibiscus, Nigerian ginger, Indonesian cassia (cinnamon), Brazilian cloves, Indonesian nutmeg, Pure cane sugar, Neutral wheat grain spirits, and deionized water.

An NA version of Sorrel

Check out Fawn Weaver of Uncle Nearest and the Nearest Green Foundation.

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Emma got her start with David Alan, aka "The Tipsy Texan"

The first cocktail Emma remembers taking an interest in is the Dark and Stormy

She mentioned Mayahuel by Phil Ward as one of the pioneer mezcal bars in the US

Agave varietals mentioned: Cupreata, Tepeztate, Cuishe, Madrecuishe, Salmiana

Emma's website, Instagram, and Twitter

The articles I referenced: "The Great Mezcal Heist" and "Mindful Mezcal"










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Beyond the cocktail recipe and technique books I've read, Robert's book A Proper Drink transformed my understanding of how cocktails arrived at where they are. 

Robert recalled a (potentially illegal) seminar conducted by Ted Breaux about Absinthe

Drinks and bottles that were big in San Francisco: Mojito, Pisco Punch, and Pisco Sour, and Fernet Branca

Drinks and bottles that were big in New Orleans: Pimm's Cup, French 75, Ramos Gin Fizz, Milk Punch, Sazerac, and The Hurricane

Robert mentions drinks like Little Italy and Tom & Jerry.

He reminds us that until books like The Craft of the Cocktail and The Joy of Mixology came out, forums like DrinkBoy and egullet were how people learned. He also recommends Straight Up or On the Rocks.

Greg Boehm of Cocktail Kingdom launched Mud Puddle Books which began reissuing and publishing various books.



Robert's latest book is Modern Classic Cocktails. Check him out via his website, Instagram, and Substack.

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Joe and MariElena Raya launched are the driving force behind Bittermilk Bottling Co. They produce an array of cocktail/mocktail mixers and syrups as well as ready-to-drink (RTD) cocktails.

They met at the Culinary Institute of America, and when they decided to return to Charleston, MariElena’s hometown, they took over a space her family had run for years and opened The Gin Joint, which is considered to be one of the city’s original cocktail bars of the modern era.

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Check out Kiowa on Instagram. Before working for Spiribam, she was at The Eveleigh. She is on the board of Another Round Another Rally.

Kiowa's boss is Ben Jones, a descendant of Homere Clément, who founded Rhum Clément. During Clément's lifetime, Mount Pelée erupted, one of the largest eruptions in recorded history, wiping out an entire city.

Hopefully, we can chat again and discuss another product she was very proud of, Chairman's Reserve from St. Lucia.

Learn more about the Appellation d'Origine Contrôlée (AOC) that governs Agricole. The difference between sugarcane vs. sugar beets

Learn about the varietals of sugarcane that can be used

The difference between Rhum Agricole and Cachaça

Why should tipping be abolished?

Kiowa mentions congeners. What are they? They impart flavor into spirits.

When Kiowa mentions Agricole being distilled between 65 and 75 degrees, she is talking about its proofing.

The most iconic Agricole cocktail is Ti' Punch. Kiowa is a big fan of using Agricole in place of gin for a Martini, or as she calls it, a Martini(que)

Kiowa Bryan hails from Vermont originally, where she took her first job in hospitality over 20 years ago. While at The Eveleigh in Los Angeles, she first tasted a Ti’Punch and realized her intended career path advocating for the education of all things Rhum Agricole and the French Caribbean. Since then, she's been lucky enough to spend the last seven years growing professionally into the role of US Brand Manager of Spiribam Fine Spirits Family while the company did the same, expanding into a seven-brand portfolio. In her spare time, she listens to Christmas carols far into February, studies history, and snuggles her dog Martinique Warrilow McFly.

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Kelsey Ramage and Erin Hayes are the co-founders of Black Lagoon.

Kelsey co-founded Trash Collective, which in part focuses on sustainability in hospitality. Check out their sustainability recipe tips. She's also worked at bars like Supernova Ballroom and Dandelyan

Erin is currently the beverage director at Fairmont Century Plaza and has worked at bars like Lost Lake and Three Dots and a Dash.  Check out Erin's ready-to-drink (RTD) cocktail called "Rocket Queen" from Livewire, which won best-in-show at the 2022 San Francisco World Spirits Competition.

For tiki drinks, Erin recommended checking out Jeff Berry and Shannon Mustipher. You should also check out Chockie Tom of Doomersive. 

Tying into both Kelsey's work with Trash Collective and Erin's comments about the improved quality of RTDs, many bartenders are now turning to things like "fake lime juice".

Check out Kelsey's Spotify and Erin's for their Halloween tunes.

One drink you can expect at the popup is a riff on the Kingston Negroni.

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Today's episode is brought to you by a handful of my patrons: Drew, Jenine, and Leslie. You can read more about the benefits they're enjoying here.

Follow Ryan and J. Rieger & Co.

The first place Ryan mentions working is Pierpont's. This is where he had both a terrible and life-changing Sazerac. He mentions ingredients like Peychaud's, Old Overholt, and Grand Absenté.

He mentions Mr. Boston cocktail books as well as Dale Degroff's The Craft of the Cocktail.

Ryan talks about visiting bars like Milk & Honey (New York) and Chicago establishments The Violet Hour and Drawing Room.

He mentions bartenders Sasha Petraske and Charles Joly. People mentioned involved in launching J. Rieger & Co include Andy Rieger, Steve Olson, and Dave Pickerell.

Places Ryan has opened include Manifesto and The Rieger (both are now closed) as well as The Hey! Hey! Club and his newer sprawling J. Rieger & Co distillery, bar, and more.

Rieger's Kansas City Whiskey is made unique by having a small percentage of oloroso sherry make up the total. He also mentioned their Caffé Amaro.

When I asked him about menus he loved he mentioned The Violet Hour, Pouring Ribbons (now closed), and The Aviary.



Special thanks to Chris Bay for production and editing support.

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Thanks to my guest stars Arianna Hone and Marshall Minaya.



Tales of the Cocktail Foundation, Cocktail Apprentice Program (CAP), Spirited Awards



Marshall mentioned Normindia gin, which employs Calvados

I discussed a wonderful session on clarifying milk featuring Garreth Howells



We discussed the increased wellness push at Tales involving Seedlip, Arianna's Espresso Martini courtesy of Lyre's, and Livener by Three Spirit. 

Bars: Peychaud's, Arnaud's, Two Schmuck's, Clover Club, Leyenda

People: Dale DeGroff, Dave Arnold, Jeff Berry, Ivy Mix, Dave Wondrich, Julie Reiner, Phil Duff

Brands and organizations: Diageo, Suze, Finger Lakes Distilling, Bar Convent Brooklyn



One term I'd never heard that Arianna mentioned is bump pouring. A quick up-and-down motion while pouring, creates an air bubble that causes a short gap in the stream, allowing one to reposition over another glass and not spill on the counter or interrupt your pour. This helped Arianna pour more seamlessly when moving fast in the Speed Rack competition.

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