Explore every episode of the podcast Dancing with Systems

AI and clean tech are converging to influence the pace and nature of
key systems transition.

AI is the great accelerator — but accelerating in the wrong direction is still the wrong direction. In this episode, Wayne and Sally explore the double-edged nature of technology: a powerful enabler of every other systems transition, and a sector with its own rapidly growing footprint. The question isn't whether AI is good or bad — it's what we point it at.

Guests

Joel Makower — Chair & Co-founder, Trellis Group (formerly GreenBiz); Strategy Director, Music Sustainability Alliance; lead author, State of Green Business

Anna Lerner Nesbitt — CEO, Climate Collective; former senior leader at Meta, the World Bank Group, and the Global Environment Facility

What We Cover

• Why the five biggest tech companies now outspend the entire oil and gas industry on capital investment
• How AI is enabling breakthroughs in energy grids, supply chain traceability, deforestation monitoring, and more — and where it's falling short
• Why Big Tech's emissions are going up, despite their net zero commitments
• The community backlash against data centres — and why it's crossing political lines
• What "AI literacy" means and why it matters for governments, businesses, and individuals
• Why applied AI in industrial systems — not chatbots — is where the real sustainability impact lies

Key Quotes

"We can now measure emissions and planetary impact far better than we can reduce them." — Joel Makower

"AI will be good, AI could be really positive for whatever we point it towards." — Anna Lerner Nesbitt

"Why can't I know where my AI was processed? Technically, it's totally possible." — Anna Lerner Nesbitt

References

• Trellis Group (formerly GreenBiz): trellis.net
• Climate Collective: climatecollective.org
• Kenneth Boulding — the "cowboy economy" vs. the "spaceship economy"
• Donella Meadows — Thinking in Systems

This Episode's Dance

The Paso Doble — a dance of raw power, with the bull and the matador both charging. Who wins? That's the question playing out right now between the hyperscalers, communities, and policymakers.

Next episode: The Food System Transition 

Why the energy transition might already be unstoppable.

The energy transition isn't coming — it's already here. In our first episode, Wayne and Sally unpack why the shift to renewables has passed the point of no return, who's leading the charge globally, and what a truly fair transition looks like in practice.

Guests

Kingsmill Bond — Senior Principal, Ember
Rhian Kelly — Chief Sustainability Officer, SSE
 
What We Cover

• How systems change — and why the energy transition has hit its tipping point
• Why renewables are winning on economics, not just ethics
• The surprising truth about where the transition is moving fastest (hint: not the UK or US)
• AI and energy demand — threat or opportunity?
• What a just transition looks like on the ground, from affordable housing to supply chain ethics
• The levers that will complete the transition — and the things we should stop spending money on

 Key Quotes

"We are past the tipping point. Fossil fuel demand has peaked and will be clearly in decline by the end of the decade." — Kingsmill Bond

"Speed is justice. Those who stick with the old system are going to be left behind." — Kingsmill Bond

"Little steps are as important as big steps." — Rhian Kelly
 
References

• Donella Meadows — Thinking in Systems (the inspiration for this podcast)
• The Multi-Level Perspective framework for systems change
• Ember: ember-energy.org 
• SSE: sse.com

 This Episode's Dance

The Quickstep — fast, well-choreographed, and flying across the floor. With a dash of Breakdancing for good measure, because this transition has to be community-led from the ground up.
 
Next episode

The Technology System Transition