Cults and the Culting of America – Details, episodes & analysis

In this episode of Cults and the Culting of America, hosts Scot Loyd and Daniella Mestyanek Young engage with Tara and Floyd, who share their experiences growing up in the Institute in Basic Life Principles (IBLP) and the Advanced Training Institute (ATI). They discuss the complexities of deconstruction from fundamentalist beliefs, the emotional toll of leaving a cult, and the impact on family relationships. The conversation also touches on the importance of emotional awareness in parenting and the healing journey after leaving high-control groups. Tara and Floyd reflect on their participation in the documentary 'Shiny Happy People' and the challenges they faced in sharing their story.

Tara and Floyd:

Instagram: @advocateaverage

tiktok: @advocateaverage

Daniella's Links:

Other Podcasts

Daniella's other podcast: Hey White Women

Takeaways

• Deconstruction is a personal journey that varies for each individual.
• Cults often use contracts and strict rules to control members' lives.
• The emotional cost of leaving a cult can be profound, affecting family relationships.
• Parenting styles can be influenced by past experiences in cults.
• Finding peace and healing is possible after leaving a high-control group.
• The process of deconstruction can lead to a deeper understanding of oneself.
• Cults often exploit labor and manipulate finances for their benefit.
• Sharing one's story can be a powerful tool for healing and connection.
• The importance of emotional awareness in parenting cannot be overstated.
• Cults can be seen as criminal enterprises that exploit their members. 

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to the Journey of Deconstruction
01:33 Understanding IBLP and ATI
05:45 The Cult Debate: Is IBLP a Cult?
12:11 Navigating Different Deconstruction Timelines
18:27 The Impact of Parenting on Deconstruction
23:46 Sobriety and the Numbing Process
28:31 Emotional Suppression in Cults
31:11 The Birth of a Musical Concept
32:14 Living with the Pain of Loss
34:50 Navigating Family Relationships Post-Cult
37:18 The Complexity of Conditional Love
40:13 The Struggle of Acceptance and Identity
43:12 The Irony of Family Dynamics
46:22 Addiction to Certainty and Superiority
49:15 Finding Peace in Acceptance
53:05 The Journey of Healing and Advocacy

Produced by Haley Phillips

In this episode of Cults and the Culting of America, hosts Scot Loyd and Daniella engage with Tia Levings, a New York Times bestselling author and cult survivor. They discuss Tia's journey of writing her memoir, the impact of Christian patriarchy, and the allure of traditionalism in modern society. Tia shares her insights on the dynamics of complementarianism, the consequences of perfectionism, and the importance of storytelling in healing. The conversation emphasizes the need for awareness and empowerment among those affected by high-control groups, while also exploring the complexities of societal change and the role of women in shaping the future.

Tia's Links

https://tialevings.com/

https://tialevings.substack.com/

Instagram @tialevingswriter

Threads @tialevingswriter

TikTok @tialevingswriter

Daniella's Links:

Other Podcasts

Daniella's other podcast: Hey White Women

Takeaways

• Tia's book started as therapeutic journals recommended by her therapist.
• The journey to writing a memoir can take years and evolve over time.
• Christian patriarchy influences many aspects of American culture.
• The concept of a 'cult without walls' highlights the pervasive nature of these deologies.
• Traditionalism can appear attractive but often masks deeper issues.
• Perfectionism is a significant burden for survivors of cults.
• The most vulnerable individuals often bear the brunt of abuse in high-control groups.
• Hope and empowerment are crucial in the face of societal chaos.
• People should always come before ideas in any belief system.
• Bitterness can serve as a powerful tool for healing and empowerment. 

Sound Bites

"Welcome to 2025: A New Beginning"
"It took years to tell my story"
"Hope is stubborn and necessary"

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Context of 2025
03:39 The Journey to Writing a Memoir
06:25 The Impact of Christian Patriarchy
09:30 The Connection Between Personal Experience and Cultural Issues
12:25 The Allure of Traditional Gender Roles
15:27 Nostalgia and Misconceptions of the Past
18:15 Facing the Truth of Domestic Discipline
21:30 The Importance of Sharing Stories
24:14 The Dynamics of Complementarianism
27:14 Recognizing Abuse and Empowering Individuals
31:20 Breaking Free from Perfectionism
33:39 Childhood Vulnerability in Cults
35:53 The Future of Cults and Youth Movements
37:18 Chaos and Fundamentalism
38:02 Narcissism and Cult Leadership
39:29 Women’s Empowerment and Resistance
40:27 Surviving Authoritarianism
41:53 The Power of Storytelling
43:16 Bitterness as Empowerment
52:59 People Over Ideas: A Fundamental Principle

Produced by Haley Phillips

Summary

In this conversation, Scot Loyd and Daniella (KnittingCultLady) delve into the complexities of group dynamics, particularly focusing on the duality of groups as both beneficial and potentially harmful. They explore the societal fascination with cults, the nuances of labeling groups as 'good' or 'bad', and the inherent human need for belonging. Daniella shares insights from her experiences and research, emphasizing the importance of questioning group structures and the potential for exploitation within them. The discussion culminates in a list of ten commandments for creating healthy, functional groups that prioritize individual well-being over blind allegiance.

• From Bookshop.org

• Uncultured Autograph: 

Connect with Daniella on social media 

• TikTok, Patreon, Instagram 

• Youtube

• Connect with Scot Loyd's social media  (TikTok)

• Daniella's other podcast: Hey White Women

Summary

In this episode, Scott Loyd and Daniela Mestenec Young explore the complex dynamics of cult mentality, particularly focusing on the phrase 'the ends justify the means.' They discuss how this mentality manifests in various contexts, including military practices, religious cults, and societal norms. The conversation delves into the psychological manipulation involved in these systems, the dangers of binary thinking, and the importance of embracing uncertainty in life. Through personal anecdotes and broader cultural analysis, they highlight the need for critical thinking and the dangers of extremism.

The conversation explores the concept of exit costs in cults, focusing on the United Pentecostal Church International and the Children of God. It discusses the high entrance costs, such as strict dress codes and behavioral expectations, and the financial costs of giving to the church. The conversation also delves into the psychological and emotional damage caused by cults, including the disengagement from skepticism and the fear of eternal damnation. The exit costs of leaving a cult are examined, including the loss of faith and the difficulty of rebuilding a new framework. The conversation concludes with a discussion on the lasting impacts of cults, such as social anxiety and the fear of judgment. In this conversation, Daniella and Scot discuss the mischaracterization of criticism and the all-or-nothing mentality within cults. They explore the concept of cognitive dissonance and how it plays into entrance and exit costs. They also examine the historical patterns of cults and the dangers of not deconstructing harmful ideologies. The conversation emphasizes the importance of deconstruction and the potential for finding joy and happiness on the other side.

Summary

Lucas Moctezuma discusses his upcoming film 'Holy Water' which is inspired by cults and explores the concept of free will within a cult setting. The film is set in a jury room where the jury deliberates the guilt of a religious cult leader who incited a mass suicide. The jury debates whether the cult members had free will or if they were controlled and manipulated by the cult leader. The film also delves into the psychological perils faced by cult survivors and the concept of doctrine over person. Lucas shares that the film is influenced by his mother's experience in a religious community in the 1970s. The conversation explores the challenges of depicting cults in film and the balance between sensationalism and authenticity. They discuss the importance of finding a balance that resonates with both regular audiences and actual cult survivors. They also touch on the difficulty of helping someone leave a cult and the need for compassion and understanding. The conversation concludes with a discussion about the filmmaker's GoFundMe campaign to support the production of the movie.

Summary

The conversation explores the exploitation of labor in cults and its impact on individuals. It delves into the reasons why labor is at the center of cults, including the pursuit of power, financial gain, and the whitewashing of cult activities. The discussion also highlights the role of labor in high control religious groups and the manipulation of children to represent the group's ideals. The conversation expands to include the exploitation of labor in corporations and the systemic nature of labor exploitation in the United States. It concludes by examining the long-lasting effects of labor exploitation on individuals' mental and physical health. In this conversation, Daniella and Scot discuss the exploitation of labor and the pressure to constantly work. They explore how cults and other high-control groups use labor as a means of control and how this mindset is perpetuated in society. They also touch on the importance of self-care and the need to break free from the transactional nature of relationships. The conversation highlights the negative consequences of constant labor and the importance of setting healthy boundaries.

Daniella Mestyanek Young's book: 

• From Bookshop.org

• Uncultured Autograph: 

Connect with Daniella on social media 

• TikTok, Patreon, Instagram 

• Youtube

• Connect with Scot Loyd's social media  (TikTok)

Daniella's other podcast: Hey White Women

Takeaways

Cults often exploit labor as a means of gaining power and financial resources.
Children are particularly vulnerable to labor exploitation in cults and high control religious groups.
Labor exploitation is not limited to religious organizations and can also occur in corporations.
The systemic exploitation of labor has long-lasting effects on individuals' mental and physical health. Cults and high-control groups use labor as a means of control and exploitation.
Society perpetuates the idea that constant work and productivity are necessary for success.
Self-care and setting healthy boundaries are essential for mental and emotional well-being.
The transactional nature of relationships can lead to disappointment and dissatisfaction.
The pressure to constantly work and achieve can result in burnout and negative health consequences.

Summary

In this conversation, Daniella and Scot discuss various topics including Daniella's recent trip to Portugal, the us versus them mentality, and the experience of visiting a nude beach. They explore the influence of group norms and how they shape our behavior and perceptions. They also touch on the binary thinking prevalent in American culture and the need for more nuance. The conversation highlights the importance of representation and diversity in leadership roles and challenges the traditional gender roles and expectations. The conversation explores the themes of us versus them mentality, appearance control, and the use of familial language in high control groups. It delves into the experiences of women in the military and the challenges they face in fitting in and being accepted. The conversation also touches on the topic of trans identity and the misconception that it is a cult. The importance of understanding and respecting individual identities and experiences is emphasized. The conversation concludes with a discussion on the dangers of us versus them mentality and the need for open-mindedness and acceptance.

Daniella Mestyanek Young's book:

·       From Bookshop.org

• Uncultured Autograph: 

Connect with Daniella on social media

• TikTok, Patreon, Instagram 
• Youtube
• Connect with Scot Loyd's social media  (TikTok)
• Daniella's other podcast: Hey White Women

Summary

In this conversation, Daniella and Scot discuss the use of specialized language or vernacular in cults and high control groups. They explore how cults develop their own language to create a sense of belonging and isolation from the outside world. They also discuss the impact of language on communication and the difficulty of finding community after leaving a cult. The conversation highlights the manipulation of language by cult leaders to disguise abuse and control. They emphasize the importance of critically evaluating loaded language and cliches to uncover their true meaning. In this conversation, Daniella Mestyanek Young and Scot Loyd discuss the use of cliches and loaded language in cults and other contexts. They explore how cliches are used to shut down critical thinking and manipulate individuals. They also discuss the conflation of ideas and the use of binary thinking to control and dismiss dissenting voices. The conversation touches on the concept of conspirituality and the influence of language in advertising and politics. They provide guidance on becoming more aware of manipulative language and the importance of exposing oneself to diverse viewpoints.

Daniella Mestyanek Young's book:

·       From Bookshop.org

• Uncultured Autograph: 

Connect with Daniella on social media

• TikTok, Patreon, Instagram 
• Youtube
• Connect with Scot Loyd's social media  (TikTok)
• Daniella's other podcast: Hey White Women

Takeaways

Cults develop their own language to create a sense of belonging and isolation from the outside world.
Language is used by cult leaders to manipulate and control their followers.
Leaving a cult can result in a loss of community due to the specialized language and shared experiences.
It is important to critically evaluate loaded language and cliches to uncover their true meaning.
Language can be a powerful tool for communication and understanding, but it can also be used to deceive and manipulate. Cliches are used in cults and other contexts to shut down critical thinking and manipulate individuals.
Binary thinking and the conflation of ideas are used to control and dismiss dissenting voices.
Conspirituality refers to the use of language in health, wellness, and spirituality communities to manipulate and control individuals.
It is important to be critical of the language and messages directed towards us, including in advertising and politics.
Exposing oneself to diverse viewpoints and avoiding isolation can help guard against manipulation.
Watch out for dehumanizing language and us versus them mentality, as these are tactics used by cults to create a sense of superiority and wage wars.

In this episode of *Cults and the Culting of America*, hosts Scot Loyd and Daniella Mestyanek Young delve into the complex dynamics of self-sacrifice within cults and high-control groups. Drawing from their personal experiences and extensive research, they explore how cults exploit their members’ labor under the guise of a transcendent mission, enforce conformity through appearance and attitude control, and manipulate emotions to maintain control. The conversation also touches on the parallels between cult behavior and practices in organizations like the military and corporate America, offering insights into the pervasive influence of cult-like tactics in various aspects of society.

The episode explores key themes such as cults, high-control groups, and the concept of self-sacrifice, delving into how these groups exploit their members' labor under the guise of a transcendent mission. The discussion also touches on the idea of total institutions, where conformity is enforced through appearance and attitude control, and emotional manipulation is used to maintain control over members. By examining parallels between cult behavior and practices in organizations like the military and corporate culture, the hosts highlight the pervasive influence of these tactics in suppressing individual identity and enforcing group dynamics. Topics like cognitive dissonance, patriotism, social control, and the manipulation tactics used by cults are also discussed, providing a comprehensive understanding of the psychological and social mechanisms at play within these environments.

Daniella Mestyanek Young's book:

·       From Bookshop.org

• Uncultured Autograph: 

Connect with Daniella on social media

• TikTok, Patreon, Instagram 
• Youtube
• Connect with Scot Loyd's social media  (TikTok)
• Daniella's other podcast: Hey White Women

**Scot Loyd:** Welcome to the *Cults and the Culting of America* podcast. I'm Scott Loyd along with my friend Daniella Mestyanek Young, and she's written a book called *Uncultured,* which you should pick up. Both of us are cult survivors, and we're working through a list of characteristics that Daniella developed to help all of you, along with us, process and understand our cult experiences, as well as identify cults and high-control groups. So with that introduction, Daniella, which characteristic are we talking about today?

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Thanks so much for the introduction, Scott. Today, we are going to be talking about self-sacrifice. Specifically, in cults, there's the constant and continual self-sacrifice of the members. If you're just joining us, episode one has the whole list of my 10 characteristics that make up a cult, and we're going through each of those in detail.

Self-sacrifice is number four on the list, but it connects very directly to number eight on the list, which is exploitation of labor.

**Scot Loyd:** And you've mentioned before that this is ultimately what cults are all about—free labor, right?

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Exactly. When I heard cult scholar Dr. Janja Lalich say, "Cults are about labor," it broke my brain and gave me a whole different understanding of what I had experienced and why we were doing the things we did. Labor is your one inexhaustible resource. The cult leader is out for power, but the cult itself is about getting your labor. They tell you it’s in pursuit of a transcendent mission, which we covered in episode three.

In the Children of God cult, our mission was saving the world for Jesus before the end times. In the US Army, it was protecting American interests overseas. These missions are so grand and unquestionably good that they allow the cult and its leaders to constantly pull sacrifice from their members.

**Scot Loyd:** You sent me something to read today, and you mentioned a term—quoting Irving Goffman—called a "total institution." I think when we're talking about cults, they certainly qualify as total institutions that seek self-sacrifice to meet their needs and aims through free labor.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Yes, exactly. I was trying to figure out this category for like 10 years. In the Army, when we weren't deployed or away for training, we worked a 6 AM to 6 PM schedule and went home every day. It wasn't that culty. But as soon as we went away together, it became culty. I didn't know how to explain it until I heard of total institutions. Total institutions are places where situated people live and work together, separated from the world, with a formal overlay of life. The military barracks or deployments are textbook examples of total institutions. Other examples include prisons, mental hospitals, hospices, communes, or even a rich person's household like Downton Abbey, which I argue makes the royal family a total institution too.

When you're in a total institution, your job is to put the group first, to tamp down your own identity. That’s the cult experience. Growing up in it impacts your very personality formation, to the point that I was 33 years old when I realized I never got to form a personal identity. That’s the trade-off of growing up in a world where you're always second.

**Scot Loyd:** I remember growing up in the United Pentecostal Church and going to summer camp, where we were isolated from everyone. Total institutions require people to suppress their unique traits or identity. Being tired and exhausted makes people highly susceptible to emotional manipulation. That’s exactly what we experienced at these summer youth camps.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** That’s a perfect example of a total institution that you can participate in without committing your whole life. For the months you're at summer camp, it's very similar to when a military unit deploys for a year. Even in corporations, when you go off together for a weekend or a week at a yearly offsite, it’s more of a culty experience than regular work. The removal from the world is a significant part of it. Group norms become much more important and rigid when there’s no connection to the outside world.

**Scot Loyd:** That became very apparent at youth camp. Even if you weren’t familiar with the group’s behavior, a few hours at the camp, and you’d be acclimated to the group culture. You wrote something profound about how conformity is rewarded, and any kind of independent thought is punished. Whether it's in the Children of God, the United Pentecostal Church, or even the US Army, you quickly learn to acclimate, conform, and fit in to avoid standing out.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Exactly, not standing out is crucial. This is how they start getting you to self-sacrifice. It’s not just a side effect of cults and their mission; it's a primary part of breaking you down. The primary part of identity-breaking indoctrination is getting you into a state where you always put the group first without even thinking. In doing so, you're getting rid of everything that makes you, you. This is often achieved through powerful tools like appearance control and attitude control.

**Scot Loyd:** Let’s talk more about that. A lot of attention is given to exit costs in cults, but you talk about entrance costs, which include the regulation of hair, body size, body coverage, and even underwear. These are high entrance costs that ensure group conformity.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Yes, it's like a total makeover. It's funny to me that people aren't more suspicious of this. When someone moves away, gets wrapped up in a group, and suddenly their whole look and way of talking changes, that’s a sign. The group enforces conformity because that’s how you get everyone doing the same thing. We often stereotype cults as having uniforms, and sometimes they do. Heaven's Gate famously wore the same thing. We think of white robes or the military uniform, which has pages of regulations. It’s all about looking like a six-foot-tall, blonde, blue-eyed American male soldier. The further away you are from that demographic, especially in appearance, the more you stand out. And standing out is the number one rule you don't want to break.

With appearance control, we almost always see regulations around hair, body size, body coverage, and underwear. Starting with hair, think of the first day in the military—buzz cut. Only the men, though. So immediately, women stand out. It’s a moment where they’re showing you, "We own you." Hair is so crucial to coercive control. For most of us, we’ve never seen our own bald heads, so they’re exposing the only part of you that you haven’t even seen naked. I advise men to shave their own heads before joining the military to have that moment of ownership. Hair control is always about controlling attitude. In the Children of God, for example, you weren’t supposed to cut your hair because it was supposed to be a vessel of God’s love. It wasn’t about the hair; it was about how you were supposed to behave with the long biblical hair.

**Scot Loyd:** In the United Pentecostal Church where I grew up, women were also required to wear their hair uncut, often in similar hairstyles. You talk about the emphasis on a bun in the military, a hairstyle that made it difficult for women to do their job, but was still embraced. It wasn’t really about appearance but about regulating behavior. Sermons often tied the submission of women to men to their uncut hair. So, you're right—it had very little to do with appearance and everything to do with controlling behavior.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Exactly. The cult always gives you a reason for these controls that aren’t about behavior. In the military, they say it’s for lice control. But shaving heads doesn’t get rid of lice, and I’ve never heard of gender-based lice that don’t infect women. Same with beards—they claim it’s for gas mask sealing, but then why do special forces guys have beards? It’s about appearance. And this extends into regular America through concepts like professionalism. In the Army, the parallel is "standards." The standard is X, and you need to be this to be professional. In the chapter, I quote the Southern Poverty Law Center, which says professionalism is just racism under another name. It’s there to arbitrate behavior and make you change yourself to fit a mold.

People don’t often realize how much work goes into looking "professional," especially for those who don’t fit the mold. Women, especially, are taught that hair, beauty, jewelry, makeup—all the things that are controlled—are frivolous. But if they were frivolous, we wouldn’t see them being controlled in coercive environments.

**Scot Loyd:** These groups are enforcing constructed identities that aren't authentic to who a person is. They regulate appearance to make it easier for these constructed identities to be sacrificed for the cause. You’re expected to give up your authentic self for the group.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Absolutely. You mentioned the word "arbitrary," and that’s my soapbox. In studying groups and systems, I find that any regulation or legislation that’s arbitrarily applied is used to oppress the least powerful demographics. For example, the main road outside my house has a 30 mph speed limit that everyone goes 40-45 mph on. The cops aren’t pulling everyone over, so it’s legislation that’s arbitrarily applied. In the Children of God, we had general appearance regulations, but we also had a catch-all prohibition on "looking cool." Fast forward

 to the Army, where we have hundreds of pages of regulations about appearance, but there’s also a catch-all that allows the commander to say, "You look too faddish." It’s arbitrary and used to control. It’s not operational, but it’s about prescribing behavior and demanding sacrifice.

Appearance control is about prescribing attitude and behavior, which leads us to body size and body coverage. In coercive environments, they generally want you to be skinny, small. This puts you in a brain fog and is a visual representation of self-sacrifice. There's a hierarchy in America that thin is better, but you're never thin enough. You’re constantly striving, and that’s what a cult wants—constant striving. Sometimes it’s not about being skinny; sometimes it’s about being muscular or even large, as we saw in the Twin Flames cult. But it’s always about controlling body size. In the military, they want you to be a skinny, tall runner.

Body coverage is another form of control, usually requiring you to stay covered. There’s a lot of purity culture in coercive control. Cults often use purity requirements, not just in the way we think, but in not putting certain things in your body, soul, or mind. It’s all about self-sacrifice. The cult leader, of course, never has to self-sacrifice—they're always exempt. Sometimes the control is the opposite, like in the Children of God, where it was no bras, and girls and women shouldn’t sleep with underwear. Shyness was the sin of pride. It’s about controlling what parts of your body someone else is allowed to see. I love that Gen Z has decided, "Forget it, our bodies are our bodies."

**Scot Loyd:** That’s refreshing about the younger generations—they’ve embraced authenticity as a value. You mentioned body size, and I want to go back to that point. Your husband, reflecting on his time as a helicopter pilot, realized that it had less to do with his skill and more with the perception of his appearance.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Yes, my husband was a 20-year helicopter pilot who retired from Special Operations, the elite flying unit created after the Iran hostage crisis went wrong. His job required incredible skill, but he said his career advancement depended more on his being a tall, skinny runner than on his skill. The Army arbitrarily chose runtime as a measure of a good soldier. In the Army, especially for officers, there’s this idea of the "elbow gap"—you need to look skinny in uniform. It’s not operational; it’s about appearance control. It’s about prescribing behavior and sacrifice. This arbitrary standard impacts people’s careers, even if they’re highly skilled.

When I started looking at appearance control, I realized how much it affects people. Readers of *Uncultured* pointed out that I had disordered eating, and I realized I’d had an eating disorder for 20 years—first in the cult, then in the military. It’s not uncommon for soldiers to leave the military with serious eating disorders because of the pressure to stay small and skinny.

**Scot Loyd:** I also recall from *Uncultured* that you were very fast. You tell a story about outrunning a lot of the men. Do you think that contributed to your success in the Army? If you hadn’t been as fast or skinny, would you have enjoyed the same success?

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Absolutely not. I always joked that as a woman, I had to run faster, jump higher, and shoot better than all the men, so I ran really fast. I was a good intelligence officer, but a pretty garbage soldier. But nobody realized that for six and a half years because I was a really fast runner. It’s hard to explain, but growing up in high-control groups, you’re taught to be the best, and you’ll sacrifice anything—your mental, physical well-being—just to be at the top of the group.

**Scot Loyd:** That’s interesting because even if you believe the rhetoric of the armed forces—"be all you can be"—what you’re saying is that a lot of it is perception. You were seen as the cream of the crop because you could run fast and were a skinny white girl, but that doesn’t necessarily reflect skill. That should concern all of us if the rhetoric is that we’re the best in the world, but it’s happening based on perception and old stereotypes.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Exactly. Even when it opposes operational success, appearance control is about prescribing behavior and sacrifice. We’re demanding sacrifice, and it must be hard, often visibly hard. That’s why skinny is such a common standard in high-control environments—it’s a sign of self-sacrifice. And then there’s underwear control, which is a common theme in cults. In *Uncultured,* I talk about how the uncles in the cult would do panty checks on the girls at night, and it was as creepy as it sounds. I left it in the book because I realized they inspect our underwear in the military too. If they did it in the cult and the military, it’s about programming and influence or power and control. Underwear control is a taboo, it makes us feel shameful, and it takes away individuality. In the military, your underwear is only inspected in basic training, but the regulation is there, so anyone could technically ask to see your underwear. The final thing is that if you can convince your members that the mission is so important that even their underwear matters, you’ve got them.

**Scot Loyd:** That’s the most powerful point. If something as intimate and personal as undergarments can be regulated, it’s not a far stretch to ask someone to give up their life for the cause. You’ve already given up control of personal details, so the next step isn’t that large. And the fact that in 2024, people are still judging others for their clothing choices shows how deep these ideas of control go.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Exactly. High-control groups work by sometimes having written clothing requirements and sometimes not, but the message is always, "Don’t stand out." That’s true in corporate America, government work, and many other areas. After I sold my book and gained some financial freedom, my first thought was, "I’m going to wear whatever I want for the rest of my life." It’s a big part of deconstructing from cults. I wear wacky outfits because I want to, and I’ve realized that nothing happens when I do. It’s a way of messaging to yourself that you’re in control of your life. It’s also a way to signal to others that you’re not playing these games and aren’t trying to fit in. I really embrace the idea of "Why fit in when you were born to stand out?" after almost three decades of high-control environments.

Appearance control is always about prescribing attitudes, and that leads us to attitude control. There are two aspects of attitude control—emotional suppression and emotional evocation. You’re not allowed to have any attitude that isn’t happy and bubbly. Everything is good, but when you’re told to cry, you cry. This is seen in church cry nights or military funerals, where you’re expected to maintain military bearing until the taps play, then you can let it all out. Both constant emotional suppression and evocation are ways cult leaders control us. We often continue these behaviors even after leaving the cult. We’ve been taught that emotions are dangerous, but we don’t understand that we need emotional release, which can lead to breakdowns. There’s a reason so many of us like sad ballads or country songs—we have this praise kink because that was the music we were allowed to tap into our emotions.

**Scot Loyd:** That’s exactly what I experienced growing up in the United Pentecostal Church. There were two emotions that were rewarded: exuberant happiness and sorrowful lament. There was no nuance in between. When you got into the real world, your responses were either toxic positivity or inappropriate lamenting. We didn’t understand our emotions because they were manipulated in the group. Being tired, isolated, and dependent increases emotional vulnerability and impairs critical thinking, so when you’re in these groups, your emotions are manipulated. When you face real situations, you either don’t know how to respond or respond inappropriately.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** It’s so hard when we walk away from these groups. I noticed this when I became a parent—I didn’t know how to deal with any emotion that wasn’t happy or angry. All of this self-sacrifice, appearance control, emotional suppression, and more lead to isolation, breaking you off from family, friends, and even yourself. Sacrifice is seen as a good thing, but it leads to the cult glaze—the look of cult members who are smiling but have a hundred-meter stare or black eyes. It’s a constant state of disconnection from your own emotions, critical thinking, and needs. The promised reward is that the group will win, that all this sacrifice is for something. When we leave high-control groups, we have to learn to be more selfish but less narcissistic. In cults, our sacrifices feed our egos and make us feel superior, but we have no idea how to self-care.

**Scot Loyd:** In our culture, sacrifice is celebrated for the sake of sacrifice. The death of an American soldier is venerated and deified. I consider myself a patriot, but it can be dangerous to elevate sacrifice without questioning the cause. After 9/11, we saw toxic patriotism, and we stayed in Afghanistan for years because politicians were too scared to pull out and risk the sacrifice of those soldiers being seen as for nothing. But the reality is that if you constantly ask individuals to sacrifice for the group, they will break. That’s why

 I don’t think you can have a good cult because constant self-sacrifice ultimately impacts the individual.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Exactly. Every organization’s goal is to perpetuate itself, but if you’re constantly asking someone to self-sacrifice for the group, it’s not sustainable. In cults, one of the things you’re asked to sacrifice is your own health—physical and mental. Both in the Children of God and the US Army, I saw the demonization of medical care. When you need medical care, you’re saying, "I matter more right now than whatever I should be doing for the group." We see cracks in the brainwashing happen during medical emergencies when people realize the cult will let them suffer endlessly in its name. The amount of self-sacrifice you’ve done becomes its own exit cost, making it harder to leave. Cognitive dissonance comes from cults, where people couldn’t walk away even when the apocalypse didn’t happen because they had sacrificed too much. This is why I admire you for walking away and deconstructing after devoting so much of your life to your cult.

**Scot Loyd:** That’s a great point. It’s important to educate yourself and understand that you can walk away from these groups. If you keep sacrificing, whether it’s your health, finances, time, or talent, it will eventually rob you of your life. That’s the tragedy we see too often.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** These extreme groups want your whole life dedicated to them. As we said when we started, living under someone else’s prescribed identity is dangerous for you. But you can walk away, you can make the decision to stop self-sacrificing. In a healthy organization, you should be able to say, "These are my boundaries, and I’m not sacrificing this." However, in most total institutions, cults, and high-control groups, when you decide you’re no longer willing to self-sacrifice, it’s time to go. The group will usually push you out because they don’t want others to realize you can just choose to stop.

**Scot Loyd:** Absolutely. Hopefully, Daniella has piqued your interest, and you’ll pick up her book *Uncultured,* available wherever you buy quality books. It’s a great read. Follow Daniella on social media—she’s all over TikTok, Instagram, and has exclusive content on her Patreon page. Daniella, thank you, as always, for a great conversation.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Thank you so much, Scott. Please follow Scott too—he’s a very interesting person on TikTok. Speaking of self-sacrifice, Scott works a real job all day and then comes here in the evening to help record this podcast and make it awesome. Hopefully, we’ll make sure Scott gets enough out of being involved that it’s not constant self-sacrifice. Thank you all so much for listening. *Uncultured* is also on audiobook and available at libraries. On Patreon, I’m reading it out loud one chapter at a time, even if you’re not a paid subscriber. Lots of ways to connect with us and access our content. We’ll be back next week to talk about isolation and how cults separate you from the rest of the world.

**Scot Loyd:** I’m looking forward to it, and I hope that all of you will subscribe, leave a rating, and share our podcast with others. Until next time, I’m Scott Loyd for Daniella Mestyanek Young. We’ll see you on the next episode of *Cults and the Culting of America.*