Explore every episode of the podcast Credible Witness

In the premiere episode of Credible Witness, host Nikki Toyama-Szeto is joined by theologian and public historian Jemar Tisby and pastor and scholar Mark Labberton to explore how the witness of the church has become compromised—and what might restore its credibility. Reflecting on five years of candid, challenging conversation among diverse Christian leaders during the wake of George Floyd’s murder and rising Christian nationalism, the three discuss the soul-searching, disillusionment, and hope that emerged.

Together, they examine the cultural fractures, theological tensions, and moral failures that have pushed many to extremes, elevating strident voices as an increased number of people to leave the church.

They articulate the mission and vision of Credible Witness, testify to a persistent hope in Jesus and the power of honest community, face painful truths, and imagine a church that more truly reflects the love, justice, and mercy of God.

Key Moments

1. “We absolutely get that… but we’re still on board with Jesus. And Jesus has always been with us and hasn’t left us.”
2. “This isn’t about leaving Jesus. This is about following Jesus.”
3. “We’ve got a better story to tell.”
4. “It was the church that was putting the church at risk.”
5. “The church has a reputation in the United States… and not a good one by and large.”

About the Contributors

Nikki Toyama-Szeto is the host of Credible Witness, and is executive director of Christians for Social Action, equipping the church to pursue justice and follow Jesus in the tension of our times.

Jemar Tisby is the author of The Color of Compromise and How to Fight Racism, and founder of The Witness: A Black Christian Collective. He is the host of Pass the Mic.

Mark Labberton is a pastor, author, and former president of Fuller Seminary, known for his prophetic voice on faith, justice, and the credibility of the church. He is host of the podcast Conversing.

• “This isn’t about leaving Jesus. This is about following Jesus.” —Jemar Tisby
• Nikki introduces Credible Witness as a space for honest stories of faith amid moral complexity and social tension
• Mark recalls the origins of the conversation in summer 2020: COVID-19, George Floyd, church division, and racial injustice
• Jemar Tisby clarifies the mission for imagining a more credible Christian witness
• Nikki reflects on trust-building in a space that welcomed “tricky truths” and honesty without pretense
• The group’s five-year journey begins as a short experiment but grows into a lasting community of deep discernment
• “We weren’t trying to replicate any harm.” —Jemar Tisby
• The group names white Christian nationalism and silence on injustice as threats to the church’s credibility
• Ephesians 2 and the power of “coming together of the unlikes” as a witness to the resurrection
• “It was the church that was putting the gospel at risk.” —Mark Labberton
• Nikki explains how church neutrality began to speak volumes: “Choosing silence was actually a loud voice.”
• Discussion on the failure of integrity: “Too many things in isolation” eroded credibility
• Jemar highlights story as central to public theology: “We’ve got a better story to tell.”
• The group wrestles with algorithmic distortion and toxic digital narratives shaping Christian identity
• “Not just message, but embodiment”: The church’s credibility depends on lived ethics, not just theological claims
• Mark emphasizes self-examination: “Are we credible?”
• Dissonance and disagreement as gifts: “What kept people in the room was the gift of dissonance.” —Nikki Toyama-Szeto
• Jemar recalls moments of tension over how to prioritize justice issues while remaining unified in Christ
• The group’s diversity as a deliberate strategy: different traditions, backgrounds, and responsibilities within the church
• Nikki names divine timing: the conversation is more urgent now than when it began
• “We’re not all supposed to be the same... That’s how everything gets covered.” —Jemar Tisby
• Mark frames the church’s failure as internal implosion—not external threat
• “Why is the church seemingly so unchanged?” —Mark Labberton
• Nikki describes how marginalized voices carry wisdom for the way forward
• Jemar articulates the podcast’s goal: a mirror and a window for listeners to see both themselves and the larger church
• Nikki closes with an invitation to slow down and listen generously: “Pull up a chair...”

Credible Witness is brought to you by the Rethinking Church Initiative. Produced and edited by Mark Labberton, Sarey Martin Concepcion and Evan Rosa. Hosted by Nikki Toyama-Szeto.

Special thanks to Fuller Theological Seminary, Christians for Social Action, and to Brenda Salter McNeill, whose book inspired the title of the show.

For more information, visit CredibleWitness.us.

Join host Nikki Toyama-Szeto in the premiere season of Credible Witness, a new podcast diving into the faithful lives of Christians. Each Monday, hear stories from diverse voices in the Christian community as they discuss the challenges and beauty of living out Christian faith in today’s world. The podcast aims to address the church's struggle with assimilation and cultural imitation, presenting an authentic, radically loving vision of Christianity. With guests ranging from pastors to everyday believers, each episode offers a unique perspective on faithfulness and the courage to listen.

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Subscribe now for a new podcast that listens closely to the faithful lives of Christians, asking hard questions about what it means to be a credible church today. The complicated questions, the painful questions, the profound yet beautiful questions. The questions we're sometimes afraid to even ask, let alone answer.

I'm Nikki Toyama-Szeto, and this is Credible Witness.

In this inaugural season, every Monday will feature stories, perspectives, and wisdom from people wrestling with. Bearing witness to the credibility of Christian life in the United States.

Throughout its history, the church has faced a near constant temptation to assimilate, to imitate, and to capitalize on the dominant powers of the world.

This is no less true today as implausible versions of Christianity grow. Often it's the church that most undermines faith by copying culture rather than following Jesus. This diminishes the credibility of the gospel and reveals a failure of Christian moral imagination in action.

Jesus came to redefine reality marked by a shockingly radical love, an act of justice for the vulnerable, a communal imagination that offers hope, joy, justice, and common flourishing.

The church is meant to be a credible witness to this living reality.

Each episode of the podcast is an invitation to journey with one person as they share their story of Christian faithfulness in their own words from their own context in light of all that their life includes. We hear from pastors, leaders, scholars, and everyday believers from different Christian denominations, social locations, gender, geography, ethnicity, and political views. Some stories emerge from joy and enduring hope. Others are shaped by deep pain, hurt, and struggle. All of them bear credible witness to Christ in ways both ordinary and extraordinary.

Each voice reminds us that the church is not a fixed institution. It's a living relational body, still becoming still beloved, not through just one cultural lens, but through many. Together an alternative to the echo chambers that divide us. Each guest challenges us to listen bravely and recognize our own blind spots, especially those that divert the church from showing itself as God's new humanity by the power of the Holy Spirit this is credible witness. finding stories of faithfulness and the courage to listen.

Episodes Drop Mondays starting July 28th. Subscribe now wherever you listen to podcasts.

Credible Witness is brought to you by the Rethinking Church Initiative. For more information, visit crediblewitness.us.

Credible Witness is brought to you by the Rethinking Church Initiative. Produced and edited by Mark Labberton, Sarey Martin Concepcion and Evan Rosa. Hosted by Nikki Toyama-Szeto.

Special thanks to Fuller Theological Seminary, Christians for Social Action, and to Brenda Salter McNeill, whose book inspired the title of the show.

For more information, visit CredibleWitness.us.