Explore every episode of the podcast Bitcoin Rails | Isabel Foxen Duke
| Title | Pub. Date | Duration | |
|---|---|---|---|
| The Future of Bitcoin Banking | ALEX LEISHMAN | 28 Jul 2026 | 01:30:52 | |
I first came across River during the 2020 bull market. At the time, it felt like one of the quieter players in the space—not as visible as Coinbase or Kraken, and less talked about than its Bitcoin-only competitor, Swan, which was dominating Bitcoin Twitter and investing heavily in KOL marketing at the time. My impression was that River had made a different bet: prioritizing product and security over rapid customer acquisition. In hindsight, that strategy paid off. As exchange and custody failures shook the industry during the 2022 bear market, River emerged as one of the most trusted names in Bitcoin. River CEO Alex Leishman joins me to discuss the technical, operational, and commercial decisions that have differentiated the company—and why many of those decisions have influenced the way the industry thinks about Bitcoin custody today. In more detail, we discuss:
This episode of Bitcoin Rails is brought to you by: LayerTwo Labs — developing research, software, and technologies for scaling Bitcoin via the integration of Drivechains (BIP 300/301) Hashi on Sui Network — a primitive for executing Bitcoin DeFi transactions, without having to trust a federated bridge or other centralized entity BitBox — an open-source Bitcoin-only hardware wallet, with smooth UX and no compromises on security. Check out Bitbox [dot] swiss and use code BITCOINRAILS to get a discount | |||
| Zero-Knowledge Proofs For Post-Quantum Bitcoin | BENEDIKT BÜNZ | 14 Jul 2026 | 01:43:41 | |
While many Bitcoiners remain hopeful the network will embrace zero-knowledge proofs for protocol-level use cases, practical adoption has remained limited outside of BitVM and a handful of experimental proposals. Most of the world’s ZKP research has circled around Ethereum and other ecosystems, where significant resources have been dedicated to advancing these systems, particularly for scaling and privacy applications. One of the most notable contributors to this research is Benedikt Bünz — professor of cryptography at NYU and collaborator of Dan Boneh, who together inarguably form one of the strongest blockchain-applied cryptography teams in the world. The pair recently announced they’ll be leading the new post-quantum cryptography unit localhost research — the first dedicated PQ research effort within a major Bitcoin development organization. With Benedikt leading the charge on the use of zero-knowledge proofs for post-quantum mitigation, the question emerges: will the post-quantum transition be the catalyst to finally bring zero-knowledge proofs to Bitcoin's core protocol? In more details, Benedikt and I discuss:
This episode of Bitcoin Rails is brought to you by: LayerTwo Labs — developing research, software, and technologies for scaling Bitcoin via the integration of Drivechains (BIP 300/301) Hashi on Sui Network — a primitive for executing Bitcoin DeFi transactions, without having to trust a federated bridge or other centralized entity BitBox — an open-source Bitcoin-only hardware wallet, with smooth UX and no compromises on security. Check out Bitbox [dot] swiss and use code BITCOINRAILS to get a discount | |||
| Post-Quantum Bitcoin Signatures (+ their tradeoffs) | ETHAN HEILMAN & JONAS NICK | 05 May 2026 | 01:18:05 | |
According to BIP 360 co-author, Ethan Heilman, Bitcoin needs a minimum of two soft forks to become quantum resistant: P2MR (or an output type that can safely execute PQ signatures) + a post-quantum checksig (signature scheme). Ethan and the BIP 360 team (including myself and Hunter Beast) introduced the P2MR part via a BIP 360 update late last year—but the question remains, what’s the most appropriate PQ signature scheme for Bitcoin? They all have substantive tradeoffs, but hash-based signatures seem to be leading technical discourse—likely due to recent optimizations by Jonas Nick and the broader Blockstream research team. It was an honor to sit down with both of these men - arguably the two most influential and productive cryptographers in Bitcoin quantum mitigation right now - for an in-depth review of the leading PQ signature schemes and a temperature check on Bitcoin’s post-quantum planning process. TBH, if you want to skip the noise and jump straight to the signal on quantum, this is the interview to watch. In this episode, we discuss:
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| DRIVECHAINS AUTHOR TO HARDFORK BITCOIN I with PAUL SZTORC | 24 Apr 2026 | 01:27:53 | |
Paul Sztorc is one of the most controversial figures in Bitcoin—and he’s about to pull off one of his most controversial moves of all: a full-blown Bitcoin hardfork. Actuating his vision of “e-cash,” as the new protocol is called, Paul is pushing forward a new Drivechains-enabled Bitcoin experience—citing governance challenges and a “broken soft fork process” as reasons for the move. “If BIP300/301 was activated in Bitcoin, we would stop,” says Paul Sztorc—adding, “it’s an irony that the soft fork was invented because the hard fork was too difficult.” In this interview, I asked Paul all the difficult questions you can imagine—and ultimately found myself sympathizing with much of his defense. Regardless of one’s personal politics, this interview sheds light on the challenges we face in Bitcoin governance as a whole—and may be worth reviewing to better understand the political statement (ne—political artwork?) that Paul’s work represents. In this episode, Paul shares:
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| Bitcoin Mining's Heatpunk Revolution | TYLER STEVENS | 14 Apr 2026 | 01:11:50 | |
Tyler Stevens—author of Bitcoin Mining Heat Reuse and a leading voice in the space—joins the show to unpack the growing “heatpunk” movement in Bitcoin mining. Traditionally viewed as a drawback, excess heat from mining is being reframed by heatpunks as a valuable feature, e.g. to generate useful heat—like home heating or hot water. Use for these heat byproducts can effectively subsidize the cost of Bitcoin mining—making operations significantly more profitable, or even free, while contributing to higher hashrate and a more decentralized network. As Stevens puts it, “Heat reuse solves the security budget problem.” With block subsidies declining over time, mining incentives must evolve to remain sustainable. If Bitcoin mining can serve a dual purpose—securing the network while also fulfilling real-world energy needs—it has a path to long-term profitability, even in a low-fee environment. In this episode, Tyler and I discuss:
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| The Untold History of Stablecoins | PHIL POTTER | 07 Apr 2026 | 02:25:51 | |
There are few people as consequential in crypto history as Phil Potter, co-founder of Tether and creator of the world's first stablecoin. After trading Bitcoin in “Satoshi Square” amongst peers like Erik Voorhees, Charlie Shrem, the Winklevoss twins and others, Potter became known for two things: 1. Professionalizing Bitcoin trading via the development of Bitfinex—and managing the 2nd largest exchange hack in Bitcoin's history 2. Inventing stablecoins — arguably the most important piece of crypto-infrastructure outside of Bitcoin itself. Ultimately, Potter shares that stablecoins were “too successful,” adding that “anytime someone makes a lot of money really fast that they don’t understand… they think you’re a criminal.” In 2019, Phil stepped down from his role as CSO of Tether after a series of relentless personal, legal and regulatory attacks. In his first video interview since around that time — I’m thrilled to share the story of Tether that’s been waiting to be told. In this episode, Phil Potter shares: - What the early days of Bitcoin trading were like (think: in-person Bitcoin-cash trades in NYC’s Washington Square Park) - How Bitfinex revolutionized trading infrastructure for Bitcoin—and managed the second largest exchange hack of all time. - The Birth story of Tether + the dark side of being one of the most successful companies in US history. - How Phil managed the onslaught of regulatory, legal and personal attacks that followed Tether’s rapid success. This episode of Bitcoin Rails is brought to you my NEW sponsors:
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| What Happened to Bitcoin Treasury Companies? | DAVID BAILEY & BRANDON GREEN | 26 Mar 2026 | 01:49:50 | |
This most recent bull market was inarguably defined by one dominant narrative: the rise of Bitcoin treasury companies and their dramatic retracement as crypto "DATs" flooded markets. David Bailey, former CEO of Bitcoin Inc. (Bitcoin Magazine, Bitcoin Conference) — raised $760M for treasury company Nakamoto , which catapulted to a peak valuation of 33X MNAV before sliding down below MNAV after a seeming burst in treasury mania last year. David joins me and newly appointed CEO of Bitcoin Inc. Brandon Green to share the history of one of the most influential companies in Bitcoin history (Bitcoin Inc.), how their treasury play changed everything, and what we can expect from Bitcoin treasury companies moving through 2026 and beyond. In this episode, the three of us discuss:
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| Building a Financial System on Bitcoin | WILLEM SCHROE | 17 Mar 2026 | 01:03:51 | |
“People in finance understand the financial system, but not money. People in Bitcoin understand money, but not the financial system.” In a world where financial markets make up 70% of all money flow around the world — we have two choices: come up with technical solutions that enable these use-cases in a decentralized way, or simply accept that Bitcoin will be used in a custodial way whenever more complex use-cases are at play. Botanix CEO Willem Schroe is staunchly rejecting the latter — and attempting to solve some of the toughest challenges faced by the L2 and scaling landscapes (e.g. the “honeypot problem” that nearly all other L2s will ultimately face if not addressed). Willem and I break down the design space of Bitcoin L2s, why DeFi may be necessary for Bitcoin’s financial system to emerge, and how different technologies — like Spiderchains, BitVM, Lightning, and others — could eventually combine into a decentralized Bitcoin-native financial stack. In this episode, we discuss: - Why Bitcoin needs a financial system, not just payments (hint: without it, we'll end up like Gold) - The role of DeFi and stablecoins in Bitcoin adoption - The "honeypot problem" introduced by most Bitcoin bridges, and how implementing Spiderchains could be the solve - Combining Spiderchains, BitVM, and other models into the ultimate Bitcoin scaling stack This episode of Bitcoin Rails is powered by: - Best In Slot (@bestinslotxyz) — the leading API for Ordinals and BRC20 data aggregation and indexing. - Spark (@lightspark) — a statechains implementation advancing Bitcoin-powered payments. - Citrea (@citrea_xyz) — a leading Bitcoin rollup technology and BitVM alliance contributor. | |||
| Internet Capital Markets on Bitcoin | BINARI | 10 Mar 2026 | 01:31:04 | |
“BRC 2.0 is positioning Bitcoin as the prime asset issuance layer — the asset tokenization network for the most valuable assets on earth.” Late last year, BRC20 maintainer team Best in Slot extended the protocol’s functionality to include EVM smart contracts at the indexing layer — making the world’s most valuable Bitcoin-native assets protocol “fully programmable.” This upgrade, dubbed “BRC 2.0,” triggered a wave of interest in programmable metaprotocols across the Bitcoin ecosystem — expanding metaprotocol usecases beyond memecoins, into more sophisticated DeFi applications like RWAs and stablecoins. In this episode, Best in Slot CEO Binari joins me for a full update on the protocol’s technical and social evolution post-BRC2.0 launch—spilling the tea on hard lessons learned in ecosystem building, right alongside his bull case for building “internet capital markets” on Bitcoin. In this episode, we discuss:
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| BitVM3 & The Garbled Circuits Revolution | with BitVM creators Robin Linus & Liam Eagen | 26 Feb 2026 | 01:16:11 | |
In 2023, Robin Linus introduced BitVM—aimed at enabling the verification of zero-knowledge proofs on Bitcoin for trust-minimized bridging. Since then, BitVM has been implemented by teams like Citrea and others—bringing what was once considered an impossible goal to life and paving the way for production-ready ZK rollups on Bitcoin. Cryptographer and SNARK researcher Liam Eagen (formerly Blockstream and Alpen Labs) has been a key collaborator from day one, spearheading major efficiency improvements to BitVM proof systems—including the development of garbled circuit schemes affectionately referred to as “BitVM3.” In this episode of Bitcoin Rails, I sit down with Robin and Liam to discuss BitVM’s evolution following the integration of garbled circuits—an upgrade that improved efficiency by more than 1,000x over prior implementations. In more detail, we discuss: - The origins of BitVM and its early success (+ Liam’s initial skepticism and what changed his mind) - Garbled circuits, the Glocks scheme, and the Argo improvement - How these new schemes and the development of “Binohash” effect permissionless verification of BitVM proof systems - Robin and Liam’s new venture @idealgroup with cryptographer @therealyingtong + their ultimate vision for actuating shielded CSV with “the ultimate BitVM bridge.” This episode of Bitcoin Rails is powered by: - Best In Slot - the leading API for Ordinals and BRC20 data aggregation and indexing. - Spark - a statechains implementation advancing Bitcoin-powered payments. - Citrea - a leading Bitcoin rollup technology and BitVM alliance contributor. TIMESTAMPS: 00:00 Intro 03:40 Birth of BitVM and Individual Contributions 11:03 Liam’s Initial Skepticism 14:13 Joining Alpen Labs 16:22 Garbled Circuits: Explained 24:34 Jeremy Rubin’s Role 34:32 The Glocks Scheme 38:23 Leaving Alpen Labs 41:15 Founding the Company Together 42:50 Business Model, Vision and Funding 52:01 Babylon Collaboration and the BABE Protocol 57:01 Permissionless Verification Breakthrough 01:00:26 Bridge Architecture Components 01:02:31 Bitcoin Light Client Dependancy 01:15:32 Final Thoughts | |||
| History of Metaprotocols on Bitcoin | with Adam Krellenstein | 19 Feb 2026 | 01:26:34 | |
Metaprotocols on Bitcoin have a long and complex history—stretching far before the launch of Ordinals, the most widely used metaprotocol in Bitcoin’s history. Ordinals’ creator Casey Rodarmor credits much of his inspiration to these early projects—including Yoni Assia’s Colored Coins, Erik Voorhees Satoshi Dice, and of course, CounterParty (widely considered the first NFT protocol) developed by Evan Wagner and Adam Krellenstein. While CounterParty was not originally intended for the use of on-chain art, its use for art developed a cult following—used by projects like RarePepes, which remain some of the most valuable NFTs on the market. In this interview, I sit down with Krellenstein to review the full history of metaprotocols on Bitcoin—the complex history of the first NFT protocol in history—and why, after a long hiatus from Bitcoin, Krellenstein is back in action with metaprotocol Kontor …with the aim of giving all Layer 2s a run for their money. In this episode, Adam and I cover: - Why early Bitcoin metaprotocols (pre-Ethereum) didn’t take off for DeFi—and what's different today - His personal experiences with Luke Dash jr and the early “spam wars” of 2014 - Why Adam left the Bitcoin space for 8+ years after the creation of Counterparty, and is making a dramatic return with Kontor this past year - The rise of Pepes—and the pros and cons of frogs in pushing forward DeFi metaprotocols - How Kontor is solving the 10-minute block time issue - Why metaprotocols will ultimately outperform Layer 2s for Bitcoin DeFI 🌶️🌶️ This episode of Bitcoin Rails is powered by: — Best In Slot - the leading API for Ordinals and BRC-20 data aggregation and indexing. — Spark - a statechains implementation advancing Bitcoin-powered payments. — Citrea - a leading Bitcoin rollup technology and BitVM alliance contributor. | |||
| The History of SegWit and Taproot | with Pieter Wuille | 11 Feb 2026 | 01:40:31 | |
A primary maintainer of Bitcoin Core from 2011-2022, Pieter Wuille is arguably the most influential developer in Bitcoin’s history since Satoshi himself. After receiving keys to the Bitcoin codebase from Gavin Andersen, who was tasked with maintaining the codebase by Satoshi Nakamoto, Pieter went on to implement some of Bitcoin’s most dramatic and influential upgrades—including but not limited to:
A truly special episode of Bitcoin Rails, this is a rare long-form interview with one of the most important historical figures in the arc of Bitcoin’s development. Pieter and I walk through how Bitcoin consensus works in practice, the history of Bitcoin's most critical early developments, and the key role of his good friend, Greg Maxwell, nearly every step of the way. This episode of Bitcoin Rails is powered by: — Best In Slot - the leading API for Ordinals and BRC-20 data aggregation and indexing. — Spark - a statechains implementation advancing Bitcoin-powered payments. — Citrea - a leading Bitcoin rollup technology and BitVM alliance contributor. | |||
| The Birth of Flare Gas Mining | STEPHEN BARBOUR | 07 Jul 2026 | 01:49:20 | |
The first public player to deploy Bitcoin miners at oil and gas production sites, Stephen Barbour is broadly credited for popularizing the idea that stranded natural gas could be used to power Bitcoin mining. By converting methane that would otherwise be vented or flared into productive economic value, this approach became a prominent counterargument to claims that Bitcoin mining is inherently harmful to the environment—challenging one of the most pervasive anti-Bitcoin narratives of the 2020 bull run. More broadly, bringing miners directly to the source of energy helped redefine Bitcoin mining as a flexible energy consumer—positioning miners as load-balancing tools and creating new economic opportunities for one of the most essential industries in the world: Oil & Gas. This episode of Bitcoin Rails is brought to you by: LayerTwo Labs — developing research, software, and technologies for scaling Bitcoin via the integration of Drivechains (BIP 300/301) Hashi on Sui Network — a primitive for executing Bitcoin DeFi transactions, without having to trust a federated bridge or other centralized entity BitBox — an open-source Bitcoin-only hardware wallet, with smooth UX and no compromises on security. Check out Bitbox [dot] swiss and use code BITCOINRAILS to get a discount | |||
| The Cultural Fork of Bitcoin | with TJ Miller | 28 Jan 2026 | 01:19:24 | |
I was introduced to Silicon Valley's TJ Miller little over a year ago while he was brainstorming how we could potentially inscribe a 4-megger comedy video through MARA Slipstream. A Bitcoiner since 2018, TJ saw the potential of Ordinals to orange-pill a whole new kind of Bitcoiner — the kind that may realistically be intimidated by (or straight up uninterested in) ivory-tower technical or economic topics. "I talk about cultural adoption and how do we bring Bitcoin into the cultural forefront." Letting me into "his world" for this interview, TJ and I recorded this chat straight from Stand Comedy Club before his Bitcoin-focused set during Chainlink New York blockchain week In this episode, TJ and I jam about:
Unsurprisingly, we had an absolute blast and lots of laughs filming this episode. A nice little left turn from my usual technical schtick + some fun personal stories shared from both of our sides. Bitcoin Rails is powered by: — Best In Slot - the leading API for Ordinals and BRC-20 data aggregation and indexing. — Spark - a statechains implementation advancing Bitcoin-powered payments. — Citrea - a leading Bitcoin rollup technology and BitVM alliance contributor. TIMESTAMPS 📌 00:00 Intro 04:46 Trading and Crypto Misconceptions 08:47 Bitcoin and Early Adopters 17:13 Ethereum and Blockchain Exploration 38:55 NFTs and Artistic Ventures 40:46 The First NFT Comedy Special 41:31 The FTX Collapse and Its Impact 47:28 Ordinals and Bitcoin Utility 51:41 The Ordinals Cultural Fork 53:20 Cultural Adoption of Bitcoin 01:09:06 Bitcoin Comedy and Community | |||
| The History of Bitcoin Sidechains | with Rootstock creator Sergio Lerner | 21 Jan 2026 | 01:15:38 | |
The ultimate Bitcoin "scaling OG,” Sergio Lerner, has been working on Bitcoin bridges since 2012. Sergio was the first person on the Bitcoin Talk forum to propose the idea that “one chain could validate the consensus of another chain,” and architected the first functioning Bitcoin sidechain, Rootstock, shortly after the canonical Blockstream sidechains paper was published in 2014. Lesser known is Lerner’s recent contributions to the development of BitVM—through his team’s Alliance-independent implementation, BitVMX. In addition to their unique BitVM implementation (optimizing for different tradeoffs compared to Robin Linus BitVM Alliance), the BitVMX team is quietly operating as the “fixer” service provider to many of the most interesting BitVM rollups set to launch in 2026. In this episode, Lerner and I dive deep into the history of Bitcoin sidechains, why various projects of the past decade have succeeded or failed (and the legacies they left behind), and the trust-minimized future he sees through the development of BitVM/BitVMX. This episode of Bitcoin Rails is powered by: — Best In Slot — the leading API for Ordinals and BRC-20 data aggregation and indexing. — Spark — a statechains implementation advancing Bitcoin-powered payments. — Citrea — a leading Bitcoin rollup technology and BitVM alliance contributor. 📌 TIMESTAMPS 00:00 Intro 01:39 Early Bitcoin and Cryptography Background 03:55 Bitcoin’s Limits Back in 2012 05:26 The First Turing-Complete Cryptocurrency 06:27 Contributions to Bitcoin and Ethereum 16:52 Why Mining Centralization Is Bitcoin’s Biggest Risk 24:34 Rootstock vs. Original Sidechains Whitepaper 33:50 Federated Bridges and Their Trade-offs 40:49 First Rootstock Users 46:31 Merge Mining and Bitcoin Security 56:03 Fairgate, BitVM, and Garbled Circuits 01:06:37 Bridging Models and Business Constraints | |||
| Open Source Mining Revolution | with Bitaxe creator Skot | 14 Jan 2026 | 01:08:46 | |
“The current mining landscape is dominated by proprietary, closed-source players who aren’t really serving the needs of the market. That creates an opportunity for open source mining to matter again.” Bitaxe creator Skot dives into the state of modern Bitcoin mining, where a small handful of industry players control nearly every facet of mining hardware and ASIC production—in a tightly sealed, closed-source environment. While Bitcoin software developers often champion a rigorously open-source ethos in building, Skot shares why the mining industry “isn’t like that” and how closed-source mining production creates unique centralization vectors—from limiting participation by “pleb” solo miners to exacerbating geopolitical risks on an industrial scale. Thankfully, we’re starting to see a shift in demand and supply of open-source mining tools—including the recent development of “Bitaxes,” which have notably revived the solo miner community over the last year. In this episode, Skot shares the full history of the open-source mining movement, including: - How ASIC manufacturers like Bitmain and foundries like TSMC came to dominate the industry, and why competition at the silicon layer is so challenging - The geopolitics of chip manufacturing and the near-monopoly of China & Taiwan in developing ASIC technology - Why mining systems producers keep their technology so close to the vest, and who these closed-source systems most hurt in the process - How advocates at the independent and corporate levels (think: Skot and Jack Dorsey) are challenging the status quo and leading the open-source mining revolution Shout-outs in this episode to the Texas Energy and Mining Summit Bitcoin Park, and early Bitaxe supporters ZK shark and Ordinal Maxi Biz. This episode of Bitcoin Rails is powered by: - Best In Slot — the leading API for Ordinals and BRC-20 data aggregation and indexing. - Spark — a statechains implementation advancing Bitcoin-powered payments. - Citrea — a leading Bitcoin rollup technology and BitVM alliance contributor. TIMESTAMPS 📌 00:00 Intro 01:27 Diving Into Bitaxe and Ordinals 04:02 The Open Source Nature of Bitaxe 05:43 Challenges in Chip Manufacturing 07:27 The Role of TSMC and Bitmain in Mining 15:26 The Evolution and Impact of Bitaxe 22:31 The First Bitaxe Manufacturer 31:28 Why Are People Buying Bitaxes? 35:47 A Different Way of Thinking About Bitcoin Mining 37:54 Decentralization and Home Mining 41:12 Ongoing Challenges in Chip Manufacturing 44:07 How Did Jack Dorsey Get Chips From TSMC? 49:03 How Bitcoin Mining Chips Interact With Software 01:04:51 The Role of Open Source in Bitcoin’s Future | |||
| Bitcoin Mining in the Age of AI | with MARA CEO Fred Thiel | 08 Jan 2026 | 01:18:39 | |
In response to the AI-driven shock in global demand for computing power, large players in the Bitcoin mining industry have been forced to make significant strategic shifts to remain competitive. MARA — the largest Bitcoin miner in the world by hashrate — is emerging as one of the more well-positioned beneficiaries of these changing tides, having transitioned from an “asset-light” strategy (via hosted mining at third-party facilities) to an “asset-heavy” approach (owning its own land, power, and infrastructure) just ahead of the AI compute wave in 2024/25. I sat down with MARA CEO Fred Thiel to discuss how these shifting industry dynamics are playing out in practice — as well as his perspective on how key mining-related security and infrastructure issues may evolve in the coming months and years. In this episode, we cover: — How MARA scaled from near-zero hash rate in 2020 to the largest Bitcoin miner globally by the end of 2023 — Key differences between operating Bitcoin mining facilities versus AI data centers, and where the two models meaningfully intersect — Why ownership of power generation —rather than reliance on PPAs— may represent a durable competitive edge for miners and AI data center operators over time — Why Bitcoin may be entering its “IPO phase,” and why recent price corrections could reflect increasing market maturity rather than structural weakness We also explore more technical and often under-discussed topics —such as heat reuse, open-source mining technologies, and the implications of US policy goals around Bitcoin mining. This episode offers a grounded, operator-level view of where Bitcoin mining is headed, informed by one of the most consequential leaders in the public mining sector. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This episode of Bitcoin Rails is powered by: — Best In Slot — the leading API for Ordinals and BRC-20 data aggregation and indexing. — Spark — a statechains implementation advancing Bitcoin-powered payments. — Citrea — a leading Bitcoin rollup technology and BitVM alliance contributor. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TIMESTAMPS 📌 00:00 Intro 01:09 From Marathon Patent Group to MARA 06:35 Why Owning Infrastructure is Key 07:46 First Public Companies Mining Bitcoin 09:54 Data Centers For AI vs Bitcoin Mining Facilities 14:07 How AI Data Centers Will Look Going Forward 15:37 How MARA is Diversifying From Bitcoin Mining 19:03 Private Cloud and Data Security 22:20 The Exaion Partnership 26:03 Future of Bitcoin and AI 40:22 Innovative Approaches to AI and Bitcoin Mining 42:06 Challenges and Opportunities in Power Generation 45:38 Strategic International Partnerships 50:43 The Future of Real World Assets 53:53 Bitcoin Mining in China 57:24 Why MARA Runs Their Own Software 01:00:19 Where is Bitcoin Mining Headed 01:04:17 Benefits of Running a Mining Pool 01:07:17 Heat Reuse in Mining | |||
| Ark Beyond Payments | ALEX BERGERON | 16 Dec 2025 | 01:24:07 | |
If you’ve been following the “Bitcoin Season II” meta for some time, you’re likely already following Bitcoin tech critic Alex Bergeron—formerly comms at Blockstream and Layer-2 reporter for Bitcoin Magazine. A notorious contrarian, he’s known for being difficult to impress—and for having a soft spot for the Ark Protocol, which he sees as uniquely suited for trustless Bitcoin scaling and DeFi usecases (e.g. lending) more broadly. Alex made his relationship with the Ark protocol official earlier this year, joining the Arkade implementation team led by Ark Labs and Tiero. Taking a notably different approach to both engineering and product design than competitor Second (see last week’s episode with Steven Roose for comparison), Alex shares why the payments use case is “only the beginning” for the Ark protocol, and why Ark Labs intends to lead the charge on the protocol’s potential for Bitcoin-native DeFi. In this episode, Alex and I unpack: - How Alex’s experiences at Blockstream and Bitcoin Magazine shaped his views on governance, communication, and prepared him for the new wave of political disruption we're seeing in Bitcoin today. - Why the Payments use-case is only ONE application Ark Lab's Arkade implementation intends to support. - The trade-offs of introducing programmability into Ark: why expressiveness introduces operator dependencies, and how Arkade approaches minimizing (but not eliminating) those trust assumptions. - What Bitcoin-native capital markets could look like: synthetic exposure, structured products, and treasury-style use cases, designed to remain self-custodial once the technology matures. For anyone trying to understand the differences between competing Ark protocol implementations—this episode is a must-watch. Highly recommend a side-by-side comparison with last week's episode with Steven Roose as well. This episode of Bitcoin Rails is powered by: - Best In Slot — the leading API for Ordinals and BRC-20 data aggregation and indexing. - Spark — a statechains implementation advancing Bitcoin-powered payments. - Citrea — a leading Bitcoin rollup technology and BitVM alliance contributor. 📌 Timestamps: 00:00 Intro 01:45 Alex’s Early Bitcoin Journey 02:59 Scaling Bitcoin and Community Involvement 08:11 Blockstream and the Block Size Wars 14:25 Transition to Bitcoin Magazine 21:10 Joining Arkade and Future Prospects 41:09 Key Difference Between Arkade and Second 43:59 Off-Chain Transactions and Operator Risks 46:11 Bitcoin Native Assets and Programmability 51:29 Synthetic Assets and Financial Products 56:01 Challenges and Opportunities in Bitcoin Programmability 01:04:38 Past and Future of Bitcoin Programmability | |||
| Optimizing Bitcoin for Medium of Exchange | 09 Dec 2025 | 01:04:17 | |
“Payments are the north star. Bitcoin is money, so payments need to work.” The Ark protocol is widely considered one of the most promising Layer-2 architectures in Bitcoin today—one of maybe two or three that are 'Maxi-approved' due to its unique (and rare) permissionless exit feature. Former Blockchain engineer Steven Roose (& CEO of Ark implementation 2ndbtc has been working on Ark since nearly day one, after connecting with Ark's somewhat infamous creator, Burak, while working on Blockstream’s Liquid sidechain in 2022. What began as an early company pushing the new protocol forward eventually evolved into two distinct implementations— 2ndbtc and Ark Labs—with notable cultural and technical differences between the projects. In this episode of Bitcoin Rails, Steven and I got a chance to discuss the full history and evolution of this new leading protocol, including: - How Ark was largely inspired by inefficiencies in Lightning (and how Lightning and Ark may complement one another today) - How the Ark project, initially led by Burak, bifurcated into two distinct implementations (2ndbtc and Arkade), and the differences between them - How the protocol has evolved to avoid dependence on soft forks (and how CTV activation could fix the biggest UX challenge in Ark’s current design) - Steven’s personal insights working with Blockstream on Liquid and why Bitcoin sidechains have historically struggled to gain adoption This episode is fairly technical, covering quite a bit of inside baseball on the early origins of the Ark protocol. I'll be hosting Alex Berge on the show's season finale next week for a more in-depth look at Arkade - and to balance the playing field. Stay tuned for Ark-mania on Bitcoin Rails. This episode of Bitcoin Rails is powered by: - Best In Slot — the leading API for Ordinals and BRC-20 data aggregation and indexing. - Spark — a statechains implementation advancing Bitcoin-powered payments. - Citrea — the leading Bitcoin rollup technology and BitVM alliance contributor. 📌 Timestamps: 00:00 Intro 01:06 Background on Ark Founders and Liquid 02:29 Liquid and Its Challenges 06:19 Why Liquid Didn’t Take Off 11:28 The Birth of Ark and Its Innovations 13:57 Original Ideas Behind Ark 17:27 Ark Technical TLDR 31:29 UX and the Future of Ark 36:55 The Hacker House That Started Ark for Steven 42:17 An Unexpected Crisis 46:12 Second: A New Beginning For Ark 59:05 Programmability vs Payments in Ark | |||
| Why You Can’t Stop SPAM on Bitcoin | with Peter Todd | 02 Dec 2025 | 01:13:14 | |
"You cannot prevent arbitrary data from being published in Bitcoin transactions. Even at the consensus level… It’s mathematically impossible.” Legendary Bitcoin contributor since 2009 and self-described "weirdo with a fine arts degree," Peter Todd joins me to unpack the endless wars over Bitcoin's "true purpose," his pioneering work putting "spam" on the blockchain, and why he believes attempts to filter transactions are just “silly.” In this episode, we get deep into the history of using Bitcoin for data storage - which goes back, at least, to the development of Namecoin in 2011. Relatedly, we cover the history and long-fought governance battles around OP_RETURN, relay policy and our community's evolving definitions of "arbitrary data." Suffice it to say, the Filter Wars of 2024/25 are not new… they are simply one battle in a decade+ war we unpack in detail in this context-rich episode of Bitcoin Rails. In more detail, this episode covers: - The development of Open Time Stamps + Bitcoin's use in validating election data and beyond. - OPRETURN battles of the early days… and how its use has evolved over the past decade. - Why Bitcoin Core "should not try to censor transactions" and the "performance art project" (Libre Relay) that shows why. - Bitcoin as a "replicated database" and why blockchains may legitimately be useful outside of sound money. - Why preventing arbitrary data on Bitcoin is "mathematically impossible" …and trying to stop it is only distracting us from "more important" efforts, like the Great Consensus Cleanup @darosior. This episode of Bitcoin Rails is powered by: - Best In Slot — the leading API for Ordinals and BRC-20 data aggregation and indexing. - Spark — a statechains implementation advancing Bitcoin-powered payments. - Citrea — the leading Bitcoin rollup technology and BitVM alliance contributor. Timestamps: 00:00 Intro 01:19 Bitcoin Early Days 03:44 OpenTimestamps Project 12:22 Governance and Bitcoin Protocol Debates 26:36 The Blockchain Use Case Argument 35:46 Transaction Version Numbers and Standardization 38:30 Preventing Exploits and DDoS Attacks 40:10 Relay Policies and Economic Decisions 42:00 The Taproot Annex and OP_RETURN 45:07 Libre Relay 01:01:18 Future of Bitcoin and Soft Fork Proposals | |||
| Bitcoin's Cypherpunk Roots: Getting Security Through Privacy | With Obi Nwosu | 20 Nov 2025 | 01:22:55 | |
“You can get security in two ways in this world: through power or through privacy.” Obi Nwosu, co-founder of Fedi - the largest application layer built on top of e-cash protocol Fedimint - joins me on the show to discuss its role in protecting what he argues is the single most important feature of digital money: Privacy. Self-custody alone, he argues, “is not enough” for protection against attacks by those with resources and physical power — e.g. governments or anyone able to execute force against you. While the most privileged democratic societies have remained relatively safe from government seizure in recent history - this could change at any moment - as financial surveillance and resulting censorship of political expression is gaining steam. Of course, for the world’s most vulnerable users of money — those living under the reign of authoritarian governments or other non-democratic principalities — censorship, seizure and political and financial oppression are regular threats rendering privacy critical for survival. In this episode, Obi and I cover: -Bitcoin’s cypherpunk roots and the vision of private e-cash mints on top of Bitcoin, nearly from day 1 -Why privacy and security go hand-in-hand - and why security without privacy is ultimately a lame duck -Why e-cash protocols like Fedimint are likely the most practical privacy protocols in the Bitcoin scaling world right now -How activists and civilians are using Fedi to escape financial and political oppression throughout the global south A powerful interview for those who want to more deeply understand the true purpose of Bitcoin and its cypherpunk roots, it’s worth spending some time with this one. This episode of Bitcoin Rails is powered by: - Best In Slot — the leading API for Ordinals and BRC-20 data aggregation and indexing. - Spark — a statechains implementation advancing Bitcoin-powered payments. - Citrea — the leading Bitcoin rollup technology and BitVM alliance contributor. 📌 Timestamps 00:00 Intro 01:04 Background and Early Bitcoin Involvement 03:32 Challenges and Innovations in Bitcoin Privacy 06:10 The Importance of Privacy in a Free Society 28:03 Global Privacy Concerns and Future Outlook 40:46 Community Conversations and Functionalities 42:41 Diving Back into Technical Details 43:10 Real-World Applications and Challenges 44:39 Simplifying User Experience 47:20 Federation and Social Backup Mechanisms 01:11:25 Concluding Thoughts and Future Vision | |||
| How to Stake Bitcoin Natively | with David Tse | 13 Nov 2025 | 00:49:39 | |
“99% of Bitcoin is held idle, not because of lack of interest, but because of lack of trust.” Not long after Ordinals (and BRC20) revitalized the “Bitcoin DeFi” narrative, Babylon Labs seemingly leapt onto the scene with what felt like overnight success – locking several billion dollars of TVL in its “trustless Bitcoin staking” protocol. With some of the most interesting advisors and contributors in the space (…seriously, what other projects can claim both Domo and Robin Linus as collaborators?), Babylon quickly became a “BTC-Fi” Goliath – converting both Bitcoin Season 2 types and formerly staunch ETH maxis alike. In this episode, I sit down with creator David Tse to get the protocol's birth story - and learn how POS staking became the first truly trustless Bitcoin DeFi application in the world. In this episode, we cover: - Why smaller POS chains need better security… and how Bitcoin liquidity may be the answer to securing experimental chains in smaller ecosystems - How David’s former experiences in the Cosmos ecosystem informed the core thesis of using Bitcoin to secure smaller chains - A quick breakdown of Babylon’s staking architecture - and what exactly makes it “trustless” - Babylon’s relationship with BitVM, and the team’s lesser known contributions to both BitVM2 and BitVM3 (Fun Fact: David Tse is Robin Linus's PhD advisor at Stanford 🧑🎓) - Why Bitcoiners didn’t want to stake their Bitcoin for yield until now… and how the "trustlessness" thesis is already panning out (with 1 whale dropping a whopping 10K Bitcoin in the protocol just a few months back!) Bitcoin Rails is powered by: - Best In Slot — the leading API for Ordinals and BRC-20 data aggregation and indexing. - Spark — a Statechains implementation advancing Bitcoin-powered payments. - Citrea — the leading Bitcoin rollup technology and BitVM alliance contributor. Timestamps 00:00 Intro 00:38 Bitcoin++ Insights 01:52 David’s Background and Information Theory 05:34 Journey into Bitcoin and Blockchain 07:34 Scaling Bitcoin with Prism Protocol 10:38 Babylon and Cosmos Ecosystem 13:51 Bitcoin Staking and Security Mechanisms 24:49 The Importance of Reputation in Crypto 25:51 Partners and Announcements Break 27:25 Profile of Babylon Stakers 29:17 The Grand Vision for Babylon 32:40 Garbled Circuits and Secret Revelation 44:05 Trustless Bitcoin Vaults and Future Prospects | |||
| Arbitrary Data Wars: The Rise of Node Power in Bitcoin | with Matt Hill | 06 Nov 2025 | 01:38:59 | |
Matt Hill, CEO of Start9 — which is, as of this recording, the largest distributor of retail Bitcoin nodes (aka “pleb nodes”) — joins me to unpack the biggest underlying question of 2025: Who really holds power in enforcing (or disincentivizing) storage of arbitrary data on Bitcoin? Unsurprisingly, Start9 has seen an epic leap in sales with the popularization of Knots as more and more “plebs” are choosing to run nodes for the first time — not only for the purpose of running Bitcoin in a sovereign manner, but for the purpose of expressing their political views about how the protocol should run. As Core and Knots diverge on relay policy and proposals like “BIP 444” reignite the question of what belongs on-chain, this episode explores how Bitcoin’s technical infrastructure shapes and is shaped by culture, systemic power dynamics, and how the political apparatus of Bitcoin functionally operates. Additionally, this is my first attempt to represent the “Knots” side of the argument on this show. Suffice it to say, get ready for some spicy takes all around— as Matt and I ourselves attempt to demonstrate productive communication from different sides of the political aisle. In more detail, this episode explores: 1) Bitcoin’s role in the proliferation of “sovereign computing” and the special role of node runners in affecting Bitcoin governance 2) The 5 major “political parties” of Bitcoin: aka the core political players that ultimately influence both relay policy and consensus 3) Key history of the “arbitrary data wars” and how Luke Dash jr changed the conversation with his initial “bug fix” PR in the aftermath of the Ordinals boom 4) Views on different usecases for arbitrary data (e.g. BitVM vs Ordinals) 5) Matt’s spot on prediction of a “contentious soft fork” proposal (for context, we filmed this less than 2 weeks before the announcement of Luke’s divisive “BIP 444” proposal) This episode of Bitcoin Rails is powered by: - Best In Slot (@bestinslotxyz) — the leading API for Ordinals and BRC-20 data aggregation and indexing - Spark (@lightspark) — a Statechains implementation leading the path toward institutional adoption of Bitcoin-powered payments - Citrea (@citrea_xyz) — the leading Bitcoin rollup technology and contributor to the BitVM alliance 📌 Timestamps 00:00 Intro 01:16 Understanding Start9 and Its Political Implications 03:59 The Evolution of Computing Paradigms 08:01 Challenges and Solutions in Cloud Computing 35:49 The Role of Nodes in Bitcoin 37:36 Fork Scenarios and Consensus Rules 39:40 Economic Nodes and Fork Wars 44:36 Challenges with Bitcoin Nodes 01:09:33 The Birth of Knots as we Know it 01:10:23 Start9 and Open Source Software 01:12:44 Relay Policies and Arbitrary Data 01:19:50 Future of Bitcoin Governance | |||
| The Politics of Post-Quantum Bitcoin | NIC CARTER | 01 Jul 2026 | 01:15:20 | |
Less than nine months ago, investor and researcher Nic Carter sparked one of the most heated debates in Bitcoin's recent history — when he published a series of essays arguing that the network should prepare for its post-quantum transition sooner rather than later. While the essays broadly persuaded investors and institutions, many of Bitcoin's technical leaders dismissed them as alarmist — that is, until Google's quantum resource estimates were updated just a few months later. Crediting Google's paper with "shifting the Overton Window" on quantum and strengthening the case for post-quantum preparation, Nic shares his thoughts on the delicate politics surrounding this transition — and how he believes a quantum attack, and response, could potentially play out in practice. In more detail, this special episode of Bitcoin Rails X MARA Foundation TV covers: • How a quantum attack against Bitcoin, and Bitcoin's response, could unfold in practice • Whether a state actor could facilitate "benevolent" quantum recovery without requiring a contentious fork • The constitutional tradeoffs posed by abandoned quantum-vulnerable coins, including Satoshi's Coins • How Bitcoin's post-quantum transition could permanently reshape the network's governance culture | |||
| The Bull Case for Statechains & Why Big Tech Wants Self-Custody Too | with Kevin Hurley | 28 Oct 2025 | 01:00:45 | |
It was about four years ago that Facebook’s famous effort at creating its own cryptocurrency and crypto-native payments system (Libra, then Diem) was effectively halted by an unending stream of regulatory scrutiny and compliance blocks. Some leaders of the project went on to create crypto-projects of their own (e.g. SUI and Aptos), however, “Head of Facebook Financial” @davidmarcus, along with Diem wallet technical lead Kevin Hurley made the key bet that Bitcoin’s decentralized rails were the only in the crypto space likely to be undisrupted by regulatory roadblocks longterm. They went on to create Lightspark - initially designed to make Lightning “usable” by enterprise payments companies - but ultimately came to the conclusion that Lightning alone was not going to scale to 8 Billion people globally. After heavy research on scaling solutions for Bitcoin, they eventually developed a “statechains” layer-2 solution of their own Spark – which, since going live, has garnered attention from Ordinals degens to enterprise payments companies alike. In this episode, Kevin Hurley and I get into: — How the Libra/Diem regulatory blocks went down and why these concerns will likely only be addressed by a truly decentralized system like Bitcoin (+ self-custody on the wallets side) — Why Lightspark started building on the Lightning Network (raising more than 2X field leader Lightning Labs), but developed serious concerns about its ability to scale — What a multi-system Bitcoin scaling future might look like: with Lightning as the liquidity provider feeding self-custody friendly systems like Spark, Ark, e-cash systems, and more. —What a multi-system Bitcoin scaling future might look like: with Lightning as the liquidity provider feeding self-custody friendly systems like Spark, Ark, e-cash systems, and more. Bitcoin Rails is powered by: — Best In Slot (@bestinslotxyz) – the leading API for Ordinals and BRC-20 data aggregation and indexing — Spark (@lightspark) – a Statechains implementation leading the path toward institutional adoption of Bitcoin-powered payments — Citrea (@citrea_xyz) – the leading Bitcoin rollup technology and contributor to the BitVM alliance 📌 Timestamps 00:00 Intro 00:26 How Lightspark came to life 03:41 Lessons from Libra and Diem 08:35 Universal Money Addresses and global payments 13:45 How traditional finance is approaching blockchain adoption 33:08 The core challenge of Lightning 37:53 Exploring alternatives: ARC and Statechains 40:18 How Statechains work and their benefits 56:43 The future of Lightning and Spark’s role | |||
| The Two Forces That Could Break Bitcoin: AI vs Quantum with MartinShkreli | 15 Oct 2025 | 01:28:18 | |
A couple months ago, I co-hosted an X space with Layer Two Labs re: “Should Bitcoiners care about quantum computing?” You can imagine our surprise when (in?)famous tech investor Martin Shkreli arrived to share that he’s been researching this very question for years… and dropped that he’s been personally considering raising funds to hire a team of mathematicians to hack Satoshi’s Coins. In this episode, Martin and I explore the limits of Bitcoin’s security model and the two forces he believes could potentially challenge it: a computational path driven by advances in quantum hardware, and/or a mathematical path fueled by AI-assisted discovery. This interview additionally shares takes on: - Why hacking Bitcoin would be the "ultimate" mathematical achievement—and why hacking Satoshi’s coins should be considered a “bug bounty” for Bitcoin - Why quantum may be more problematic for Bitcoin than for the traditional tech world (e.g. why quantum doesn’t likely threaten NVIDIA) - The little known history of Bitcoin’s “overflow bug” (yup, Bitcoin *has* been hacked before… an exploit corrected by hard fork). - And of course, why mathematicians do their deepest work in prison 😉 As always, this episode of Bitcoin Rails can be viewed on YouTube or Spotify via the link available in my bio—and is brought to you with the help of my incredible partners: - Best In Slot – the leading API for Ordinals and BRC20 data aggregation and indexing - Spark – a statechains implementation leading the path towards institutional adoption of Bitcoin-powered payments - Citrea – the leading Bitcoin rollup technology and contributor to the BitVM alliance 📷 Timestamps 00:00 Intro 02:57 Quantum Supremacy and Google’s Breakthroughs 05:02 Bitcoin’s Cryptographic Vulnerabilities 08:24 Studying Math and Cryptography Behind Bars 20:04 Governance and the Culture of Bitcoin Development 26:29 The Future of Quantum and AI in Cryptography 37:42 Hardware Challenges and Fidelity in Quantum 47:57 Game Theory and the Quantum Race 01:04:08 Bitcoin Recovery and the Quantum Security Question 01:08:38 Mathematical Challenges in Breaking Cryptography 01:15:08 The Role of AI in Future Mathematical Breakthroughs | |||
| The Birth of BRC2.0: Bitcoin’s Programmable Asset Layer | with Best In Slot CEO, Binari | 07 Oct 2025 | 01:04:48 | |
Programmable BRC20 tokens, dubbed “BRC2.0,” launched a few short weeks ago after more than a year of building and anticipation. This effort was spearheaded by BRC20 lead-maintainer team Best In Slot, who joined the BRC20 core team after their development of open source Ordinals indexer “OPI,” and solidifying their title as a leading Ordinals infrastructure provider. In this episode, I sat down with Best In Slot CEO, Binari, to hear the birth story of “BRC2.0,” and learn how the ground was laid for programmable native assets on Bitcoin within a few short months of BRC20's launch in 2023. Having worked closely with this team and on this protocol via Layer 1 Foundation for almost two years now, this interview is particularly close to my heart. A must-watch for any Ordinals-historians out there, I can’t wait to hear your thoughts on this little-known history of BRC20, and the future of “BRC2.0.” Shouts out in this episode to Domo, UniSat wallet, Sats Names and other key figures in the development of Ordinals-based metaprotocols. In this episode, we cover: - How the idea of programmable BRC20 assets (and programmable native assets in general) was born shortly after the launch of BRC20 in late 2023 - Why Domo connected with the Best In Slot team early on in BRC20’s history, and advocated for their inclusion as core maintainers of the protocol next to marketplace UniSat wallet - The truth about the BRC20 “indexer wars” and why “he who holds the users, holds the power” - Why Best In Slot refused millions in venture funding despite being one of the most highly valued companies in the Ordinals space over the last three years - How BRC2.0 will differentiate itself by focusing on institutional-grade financial use-cases… and not the low-hanging fruit of meme coins. This episode is powered by: - Best In Slot, the leading API for Ordinals and BRC20 data aggregation and indexing - Spark, a statechains implementation leading the path towards institutional adoption of Bitcoin-powered payments - Citrea, the leading Bitcoin Rollup technology and contributor to the BitVM alliance 📍 Timestamps 00:00 Intro 00:52 Bitcoin as a time machine & new way of thinking about time 02:32 Launching BRC 2.0 & building a minimum viable ecosystem 05:00 TLDR: What is BRC 2.0? 05:31 Ordinals & the return to Bitcoin building 08:00 First exposure to Ethereum at Burning Man 10:16 Indexing, NFTs, and DeFi vision for scale 11:57 India trip, Ordinals hype, and rediscovering Bitcoin 15:33 Canonical indexers & why they matter for protocols 21:03 Early BRC 20 experiments & hype cycle 40:02 BRC 2.0 mainnet launch 54:07 Future of Best in Slot & Bitcoin applications ordinals #BRC20 | |||
| The Developer That Brought Back Bitcoin's Forgotten Code | With Ethan Heilman | 26 Sep 2025 | 01:08:26 | |
As interest in Bitcoin Layer 2s skyrockets, the inclusion of OP_CAT — an opcode enabling concatenation of elements in the Bitcoin stack — has become a key technical upgrade to watch for its potential in the development of trustless bridges. OP_CAT co-author @ethan_Heilman and I sat down to discuss debate around this opcode — including why it’s controversial, the cultural environment shaping its future, and why some worry its broad expressivity could pose “unknown risks” to Bitcoin over time. More recently, Ethan co-authored BIP 360 with @cryptoquick — another controversial proposal aimed at addressing Bitcoin’s quantum vulnerabilities. Suffice it to say, there are few people with Ethan's experience in navigating Bitcoin politics and its shifting governance landscape as we move towards ossification over time. In this episode, we cover: - The origins of OP_CAT and why it was included and removed from early Bitcoin - What makes OP_CAT so powerful (and why that worries some developers) - Cultural shifts in Bitcoin governance as its developer community matures - The ‘great covenants debate’ + OPCAT vs. CTV- The path to BIP 360 and why Bitcoin should be ‘quantum ready’ This episode is powered by: - Best In Slot (@bestinslotxyz), the leading API for Ordinals and BRC20 data aggregation and indexing - Spark (@lightspark), a statechains implementation leading the path towards institutional adoption of Bitcoin-powered payments - Citrea (@citrea_xyz), the leading Bitcoin Rollup technology and contributor to the BitVM alliance 📍 Timestamps 00:00 – Intro 00:45 – Bitcoin Privacy and the OP_CAT Proposal 03:18 – Technical Challenges of Adding New Opcodes 07:37 – Politics and Culture of Bitcoin Upgrades 28:46 – Quantum Computing Meets Bitcoin 37:48 – How Governments View Quantum Risk 39:06 – Breaking Down BIP 360 for Developers 42:03 – Post-Quantum Signature Schemes Explained 45:18 – Trade-offs in Quantum Security for Bitcoin 53:16 – Community Reactions to BIP 360 01:00:23 – The Future of Bitcoin in a Post Quantum World | |||
| The Untold Story of the Lightning Network | with Tadge Dyja | 18 Sep 2025 | 01:27:32 | |
Co-creator of the Lightning Network, inventor of DLCs, and author of Utreexo—Tadge Dryja is easily one of the most influential developers in Bitcoin’s history. After co-authoring the Lightning Network paper in 2015—leading to the development of what is still easily the most well funded and widely adopted Bitcoin L2 in the world—Tadge continued with some of the most influential Bitcoin research in the world, including but not limited to: Discreet Log Contracts or DLCs—the only tech currently usable for truly decentralized Bitcoin lending. Utreexo—which compresses Bitcoin’s UTXO set, enabling syncing by devices as small as a mobile phone, And most recently, his quantum-resistance focused proposal “Lifeboat,” which creates a path for quantum securing Bitcoin without the need for moving wallets or introducing new/experimental PQC into Bitcoin. By far and away my favorite part of this episode was the incredible history of the development of Lightning and the characters involved. If you’re a Bitcoin history nerd, or generally want to understand some of the most influential technology in the space, this episode is not to be missed. This episode is powered by: -Best In Slot, the leading API for Ordinals and BRC20 data aggregation and indexing -Spark, a statechains implementation leading the path towards institutional adoption of Bitcoin-powered payments -Citrea, the leading Bitcoin Rollup technology and contributor to the BitVM alliance 📌 Timestamps 00:00 – Introduction 02:26 – Tad’s Early Bitcoin Journey 13:21 – Can We Do That on Bitcoin? 19:12 – Scaling Bitcoin: The Lightning Network Paper 23:01 – Founding Lightning Labs & Early Challenges 27:11 – Joining MIT’s Digital Currency Initiative 30:11 – DLCs, Stablecoins & the UTXO Model 36:31 – Leaving Lightning Labs & Node Implementations 50:45 – UTXO, Chain State & Data Pruning 59:43 – Exploring Accumulators and UTreeXO 01:08:39 – Quantum Security, the Lifeboat Proposal & Future Directions | |||
| Bitcoin’s Security & Quantum Risks—and the Future of Satoshi’s Coins | with Jameson Lopp | 11 Sep 2025 | 01:27:59 | |
“Most people don’t think about security until it’s too late,” says the Casa co-founder and CSO. One of the most prolific thought-leaders in Bitcoin security and privacy, there are few people who understand the nuances of Bitcoin security quite as deeply - not to mention the OPSEC practices required to protect against wrench attacks, for instance, which are rising globally as Bitcoin price increases. More recently, Lopp has turned his attention to mitigating Bitcoin’s quantum vulnerabilities, including market risks associated with quantum-vulnerable Satoshi’s Coins + longer-term strategies for quantum-hardening of Bitcoin addresses long term. In this special episode of Bitcoin Rails, we cover: ► Lopp’s experiences designing self-custody products at both BitGo and Casa ► The swatting attack he suffered in 2017, and the radical steps he’s taken to secure his home location since ► The ‘quantum computing’ challenge for Bitcoin and its impacts on Satoshi’s Coins ► How the network may respond to QCs in the face of ossification and why QC preparation may be the hardest governance test the network has ever faced This episode is powered by: ▻ Best In Slot, the leading API for Ordinals and BRC20 data aggregation and indexing ▻ Spark, a statechains implementation leading the path towards institutional adoption of Bitcoin-powered payments ▻ Citrea, the leading Bitcoin Rollup technology and contributor to the BitVM alliance. 📌 Timestamps 00:00 – Intro: Quantum Computing Meets Bitcoin 00:19 – Jameson Lopp on the Bitcoin Rails 00:53 – The Quantum Threat to Bitcoin Security 06:32 – Lopp’s Path into Bitcoin & Security 12:58 – The Swatting Attack During the Block Size Wars 25:28 – Could Quantum Crack Satoshi’s Coins? 43:55 – Announcements & Sponsors Messages 45:30 – Building Bitcoin’s Quantum Resistance 47:00 – QBTC and the Push for Quantum-Resistant Bitcoin 48:43 – Why Changing Bitcoin Is So Hard 51:19 – Email Protocols, Ossification, and Bitcoin’s Future 01:01:53 – A Roadmap for Quantum Resistance | |||
| History of Drivechains & the Problem with Bitcoin Governance | with Paul Sztorc | 27 Aug 2025 | 02:21:46 | |
We love gleefully controversial figures on this show—and Paul Sztorc is no exception. One of the most outspoken and alternative thinkers in Bitcoin, Paul proposed BIP300/301—a softfork mechanizing the creation and removal of trustless Bitcoin sidechains, aka “Drivechains,” in late 2022. While the proposal received diverse reception from prominent Bitcoiners “across the aisle,” it’s clear that activating such a significant change to Bitcoin—when Core itself can barely push through minor relay policy changes without blowback—will be an uphill battle at best. Paul’s social and political experiences throughout this process reflect what he calls a key Bitcoin “derangement,” that is, a cultural and ideological challenge impeding Bitcoin’s effective development. We discuss these “derangements” - along with how he and Layer Two Labs plan to handle them - in depth on the show. This episode is powered by Best In Slot, the leading API for Ordinals and BRC20 data aggregation and indexing — as well as Citrea, a leading Bitcoin Rollup technology and contributor to the BitVM alliance. 📌 Timestamps 00:00 – Intro 01:39 – Libertarian Roots and Early Bitcoin Skepticism 17:45 – Peter Schiff’s Crisis Explanation 20:15 – The Silk Road Article That Convinced Paul 32:40 – The Birth of Truthcoin 38:08 – Challenges and Shifts in Blockchain Development 42:45 – Drivechain: Concept and Controversies 01:11:40 – Bitcoin Governance and BIP 300/301 01:46:56 – Layer Two Labs: Innovations and Privacy 01:51:49 – Governance Challenges in Bitcoin 01:59:29 – Future of Drivechain and Final Thoughts 02:07:57 – Ordinalization of Soft Forks 02:11:35 – Message to Core Devs and Final Thoughts | |||
| How Rare Pepes Took Over Bitcoin’s Meme Culture | with Rare Scrilla | 14 Aug 2025 | 01:32:28 | |
There are few people on the planet more deeply entrenched in ‘Bitcoin Art’ than Rare Scrilla - and few people more influential in its culture and adoption. A key figure in "Rare Pepe" culture, Scrilla pioneered the "Fake Rares" movement, igniting a significant surge in demand for Counterparty assets in late 2021 - nearly eight years after he began recording Bitcoin-inspired hip-hop, influenced by the Silk Road, in 2014. Scrilla has written and recorded multiple Bitcoin-inspired albums, including Sound Money, which became the first original album inscribed on Bitcoin - as well as the first original song on Bitcoin, a sub-1K inscription. From Counterparty, to Pepes, to Ordinals and beyond - Scrilla and I explore the unique history of Bitcoin art culture over the past decade - and the wildly underrated influence of Bitcoin on the development of “NFTs.” ---------------------------------- This episode is powered by Best In Slot, the leading API for Ordinals and BRC20 data aggregation and indexing — as well as Citrea, a leading Bitcoin Rollup technology and contributor to the BitVM alliance. ---------------------------------- | |||
| Arbitrary Data Wars: The next Block Size Wars? + Bitcoin’s Latest Identity Crisis | with Pete Rizzo | 07 Aug 2025 | 01:07:28 | |
The Bitcoin Historian Pete Rizzo has been chronicling Bitcoin longer than almost anyone. Former editor at CoinDesk and Bitcoin Magazine (and more recently the Bitcoin anchor Blockworks), Pete seems to be close to the helm of *the* top crypto media publication at any given time. ------------------------------------------------------------------- In this episode of Bitcoin Rails, Pete and I sit down to unpack the cultural rifts surfacing in Bitcoin — primarily around the use of Bitcoin for storing "arbitrary data," as is common for developing metaprotocols and Bitcoin Layer 2s. We dive deep into the heart of this rift — and why the use of Bitcoin for data availability is so triggering to some, while others see its expanded use as THE technical feature pushing Bitcoin forward. We also discuss the origins of Bitcoin maximalism, the unresolved pain of scaling debates, and the growing tension between economic incentives, protocol change, and the shifting power of Bitcoin Core developers. Is another fork wars potentially on the table? Who ACTUALLY runs Bitcoin? Are just some of the questions we debate in this episode. ------------------------------------------------------------------- This episode is powered by Best In Slot, the leading API for Ordinals and BRC20 data aggregation and indexing — as well as Citrea, a leading Bitcoin Rollup technology and contributor to the BitVM alliance. | |||
| Bitcoin Lending | With Fred Krueger and Ben Sigman | 30 Jul 2025 | 01:12:18 | |
Fred Krueger has always “followed the money” from Finance in the 80s, to software in the 90s, to the internet in 00s… and finally, to Bitcoin.A self-described “opportunist,” it was the networks-effects argument that ultimately set Fred on a heavy Bitcoin-focused path—and more recently opened his eyes to the possibility that “fast chains” too will disrupt the fiat system permanently.In this episode of Bitcoin Rails, I sat down with Fred and his Bitcoin experimentation partner Ben Sigman to discuss their contrarian takes on “what makes Bitcoin tick” and why Bitcoin lending and "fast chain" stables will fundamentally facelift Bitcoin’s long-term adoption.Is it possible that Stables could be a gateway drug for Bitcoin? While money maxis continue not-so-successfully to make fast Bitcoin payments a thing… perhaps the true path for Bitcoin adoption is in embracing the smooth, fast UX of stables on chains like Solana… and watching this techno-behavioral shift open the door to mainstream Bitcoin adoption.This episode is powered by Best In Slot (@bestinslotxyz), the leading API for Ordinals and BRC20 data aggregation and indexing—as well as Citrea (@citrea_xyz), a leading 'Bitcoin Rollup' technology and core contributor to the BitVM alliance.TIMESTAMPS:____00:55 Fred Krueger: an opportunist from Wall Street04:58 Meeting Brock Pierce in 2013, talking Bitcoin08:20 Fred’s 2016 Bitcoin Mixer09:45 Ben, the dark web, and Bitcoin11:08 Fading Bitcoin; longing EOS13:23 Tom Lee convinces Fred of $1 Million BTC17:55 There is no second best21:30 Bitcoin ETFs: When Fred blew up on Twitter23:13 What the bears didn’t get about the Bitcoin ETFs24:30 The “wall of money” coming for Bitcoin26:00 Fred’s next interest: Bitcoin Power Law29:40 Building a Bitcoin wallet and the reality of BTC adoption34:08 Ordinals, art, and experimentation on Bitcoin38:30 Domain names on Bitcoin41:07 Bitcoin mortgages: what maxis really want44:00 Will there be Bitcoin mortgages supported by the government?45:50 A new Bitcoin vault system for borrowing against BTC50:00 A two-sided lending marketplace for BTC53:10 Earning yield on stablecoins was the story of 202054:15 WTF is StupidCoin?56:30 Fred’s memecoins and Bitcoin maxi outrage59:10 Trump enters the memecoin game01:00:00 Coming to appreciate Solana01:01:35 Gambling is the “booster” for crypto01:03:30 Will BTC ever be a unit of account?01:04:30 Is Solana marketable to 8 billion people?01:05:30 Most people will use Solana for stablecoins01:06:50 Will there be a “tokenization of everything?”01:08:00 The first mass market will be crypto, not bitcoin01:10:00 Bitcoin will win - so will fast blockchains | |||
| Not Your Keys, Not Your AI | ERIK CASON & JESSE POSNER | 23 Jun 2026 | 01:21:04 | |
As language models evolve into extensions of memory, judgment, and decision-making—questions of ownership, privacy, and autonomy become increasingly difficult to ignore. In this interview, Vora founders Erik Cason and Jesse Posner share why the future of AI will look very different depending on our ability to do one thing: maintain self-custody of our personal data—with private keys, just like Bitcoin. A conversation about who controls the systems shaping human cognition, and how we can protect ourselves with the same ethos we protect our Bitcoin—this interview covers:
This episode of Bitcoin Rails is brought to you by my sponsors: LayerTwo Labs — developing research, software, and technologies for scaling Bitcoin via the integration of Drivechains (BIP 300/301) Hashi on Sui Network — a primitive for executing Bitcoin DeFi transactions, without having to trust a federated bridge or other centralized entity BitBox — an open-source Bitcoin-only hardware wallet, with smooth UX and no compromises on security. Check out Bitbox [dot] swiss and use code BITCOINRAILS to get a discount | |||
| Protecting Bitcoin From "MEVIL" | With Matt Corallo | 23 Jul 2025 | 01:20:19 | |
After starting full-time in Bitcoin straight out of college (as a co-founder of Blockstream… NBD) Matt Corallo is one of the most long-standing and prolific Bitcoin contributors in the world, having worked on several of its most influential projects—including Lightning, Stratum V2, the original sidechains paper, and more.That being said, he’s arguably best-known in recent history for sounding the alarms about potential risk vectors for miner centralization—including the risks of “Miner Extractable Value,” aka “MEV” or “MEVIL” (not-so-affectionately).MEV, of course, is a subject that most Bitcoiners haven’t spent much time thinking about. Widely considered an “Ethereum problem,” most diehard maxis ignore the potential of “Ethereum-style” MEV on Bitcoin—despite rapid development of the technologies that could easily bring these risks to Bitcoin sooner rather than later (think: trustless bridges and “Bitcoin DeFi”).In this episode, Matt breaks down:-What MEV actually is—and how/why it could be coming to Bitcoin-How Bitcoin can protect itself against these risks—and may have a leg up relative to Ethereum-Matt’s work on Stratum V2 and the development of decentralized mining pool tech-The complex influence of Ocean Mining—and whether or not they're “succeeding”-Matt’s plea to enact the Blockchain Regulatory Certainty Act—and the future of Bitcoin development without itAs always, you can view this episode on YouTube or Spotify via the linktree in my bio. This episode is powered by Best In Slot (@bestinslotxyz), the leading API for Ordinals and BRC20 data aggregation and indexing—as well as Citrea (@citrea_xyz), a leading 'Bitcoin Rollup' technology and core contributor to the BitVM alliance. TIMESTAMPS:___01:25 Matt Corallo: Discovering Bitcoin in High School05:00 The Wizards Chat: The OG Idea Space for Bitcoin07:00 Contributing to Bitcoin Core08:15 Becoming 1 of 11 Blockstream “co-founders”13:10 Blockstream’s Goals: Helping Bitcoin Grow15:00 Researching Decentralized Bitcoin Sidechains18:30 How the Liquid Sidechain was born20:40 Lightning Network and payment channels explained26:00 Matt’s exit from Blockstream to Chaincode Labs28:15 Working with Chaincode Labs31:00 Moving to Spiral: Jack Dorsey’s Bitcoin Company33:15 Making Bitcoin the “best money”36:00 Building Lightning Development Kit (LDK)37:00 Matt’s Concerns w/ Mining Centralization39:20 Creating a Decentralized Mining Pool42:27 Stratum v2 vs Stratum v145:00 Will OCEAN see a competitor in decentralized mining?48:30 Matt’s optimism about solving miner centralization50:30 What is Miner Extractable Value (MEV) on Bitcoin?54:00 How MEV creates economies of scale for mining55:00 Flashbots attempt to solve MEV on Ethereum57:50 The downside: Ethereum is losing censorship resistance59:30 How MEV could crush pools like OCEAN01:01:20 What happens to mining when programmable Bitcoin arrives?01:04:10 A potential solution: MEVPool01:07:40 Weaknesses of this model01:09:30 Are Bitcoiners even aware of the MEV problem?01:12:45 The Blockchain Regulatory Certainty Act01:14:00 Who in crypto counts as a “money transmitter?”01:15:30 Changing the law for non-custodial entities | |||
| Orange Pilling Crypto With Cats and Wizards | With Udi Wertheimer | 15 Jul 2025 | 01:07:23 | |
One of the most influential voices in “Bitcoin Season II,” Udi Wertheimer is one of the most controversial and, perhaps, most misunderstood figures in the Bitcoin community broadly. A self-identified “survivor” of Bitcoin maximalism, Udi’s critiques of Bitcoin-only tribalism – and the suppression of nuanced discussion that arises as a result – made him the perfect spokesperson for post-Ordinals Bitcoiners looking for someone to represent their “Bitcoin-first” rather than “Bitcoin-only” views. Inspired by Ordinals, Udi and partner @ercwl founded @TaprootWizards – one of the most unique and enigmatic companies in Bitcoin – with a broad mandate to “onboard crypto users to Bitcoin… by any means necessary.” From launching two of the most popular Ordinals collections in the world – to campaigning for progressive Bitcoin opcodes (i.e. CAT) – Udi and the Wizards relentlessly orange pill the most maxi-neglected low-hanging fruit… non-Bitcoin crypto users. As always, you can view this episode on YouTube or Spotify via the linktree in my bio. This episode is powered by Best In Slot (@bestinslotxyz), the leading API for Ordinals and BRC20 data aggregation and indexing—as well as Citrea (@citrea_xyz), a leading 'Bitcoin Rollup' technology and core contributor to the BitVM alliance. Timestamps: 00:20 Udi: The Bitcoin Maxi “Cult Survivor” 03:10 Maxis cheering on Gary Gensler 06:30 Ordinals: Tokens arriving on Bitcoin 08:55 How NFTs helped encourage Bitcoin self-custody 11:40 Making Bitcoin cool again for crypto people 13:55 Why did Udi start the Taproot Wizards company? 16:00 The Wizards’ pitch to investors 18:50 “Successful fundraising” is an oxymoron 20:40 Why did Ryan Dell join the Wizards? 24:00 Taproot Wizards is not strictly an “L2” company 27:00 What went into the Taproot Wizards NFT launch 29:30 The NFT auction and inspiring Solana user participation 32:50 The importance of launching during the bear market 34:30 Every active crypto trader has Phantom wallet 37:10 Cultural differences between Bitcoin, crypto and different wallet users 40:45 Why Udi was impressed by Odin.fun 43:30 Udi is NOT a Runes fan 45:40 Don't be too defeatist about Runes’ failure 47:40 Championing OP_CAT and the Bitcoin Core power vacuum 49:40 Why Bitcoin Core has “failed” 51:35 Bitcoin Core’s weakness around OP-Return drama 55:00 How will Bitcoin devs get things done? 57:40 Udi’s OP_CAT political lobbying effort 01:00:20 Why Udi thinks CTV is unlikely to pass 01:03:40 Robin Linus wanted OP_CAT: What happened? 01:05:30 Were Taproot Wizards a blessing or a curse for OP_CAT? | |||
| Building Rollups on Bitcoin + the Battle for OP_Return | with Citrea | 03 Jul 2025 | 01:13:37 | |
BITCOIN RAILS EPISODE #27: Building Rollups on Bitcoin + the Battle for ‘OP_Return’ | with @citrea_xyz founders @0x_orkun and @ekrembal_ The founders of Citrea were unlikely superstars in the Bitcoin ecosystem—a team of 24-year-olds, barely out of school, with most of their prior experience in the Ethereum ecosystem. Yet they have rapidly emerged as one of the leading teams at the forefront of BitVM research, design, and implementation—and are the crowned BitVM play for Founders Fund (@peterthiel + @joeykrug ) amongst others noteworthy investors in the space. Their work was more recently noticed by Bitcoin Core developer @darosior who cites Citrea’s use of nonstandard transactions to support its bridge architecture as inspiration for Core’s recent shift in relay policy—and the infamous “Op-ReTuRn DrAmA” that followed suit. In this episode, we cover Citrea's development of what will likely be the first “proper rollup” on Bitcoin mainnet, as well as their account of "what happened” with Bitcoin Core, the OP_RETURN drama, and their take on @LukeDashjr's vendetta against Bitcoin for data availability. Other show notes include: - Why no one took them seriously in the early days of “BitVM” and how they gained respect from the industry - The practical challenges of building BitVM bridges and the creative attitude that gets them through blocks - Citrea’s wild fundraising success with Galaxy and Founders Fund - Why bridge modularity is *not* the approach for Citrea despite peers moving in that direction - The OP_Return debate and FUD about Bitcoin for DA As always, you can view this episode on YouTube or Spotify via the linktree in my bio. This episode is powered by Best In Slot (@bestinslotxyz), the leading API for Ordinals and BRC20 data aggregation and indexing—as well as Citrea (@citrea_xyz ), a leading 'Bitcoin Rollup' technology and core contributor to the BitVM alliance. TIMESTAMPS: 0:25 Intro to the Citrea team: Orkun and Ekrem 5:40 Proof of Innocence: privacy product on Ethereum 7:30 Why privacy is critical for crypto 9:15 Discovering Ordinals inscriptions on Bitcoin 12:30 Ordinals safe - an OG Ordinals wallet 14:30 Thinking about ZK and rollups on Bitcoin 18:00 The massive discovery of BitVM 21:10 Implementing BitVM and creating a Bitcoin bridge 24:40 Dealing with doubters and “scamming” accusations 26:25 How did Citrea fundraise so well? 29:12 Galaxy’s special understanding of Citrea 31:00 Involvement of Founders Fund 33:37 What exactly is a “real” rollup? 36:55 Citrea and the BitVM Alliance 38:55 Biggest challenges building a BitVM bridge 41:15 Citrea vs Clementine 43:39 Why focus on a single Citrea ecosystem vs modularity? 46:39 Will the Ethereans defect to Bitcoin L2s? 50:40 Troubles with bridging: Dust adds up! 53:10 Time sensitivity and zero sat outputs 56:00 The case for expanding the OP_Return limit 01:01:40 Why we don’t *need* larger OP_Returns 01:03:00 The drama around OP_Return 01:06:21 Takeaways about Citrea and OP_Return Drama 01:09:42 Propaganda against Bitcoin metadata 01:12:55 Being Bearish is Easy LISTEN / SUBSCRIBE TO THE PODCAST: › YouTube: / @bitcoinrails › X/Twitter: https://x.com/isabelfoxenduke › Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5uPrBxvD691TpTqjijudkO?si=571634b88d574911&nd=1&dlsi=eab3dc72a2704b06 CONNECT WITH ISABEL: › Email: bitcoinrails@gmail.com › LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/isabel-foxen-duke-87272423/ › X/Twitter: https://x.com/isabelfoxenduke Bitcoin #Ordinals #BRC20 #Runes #BitVM #zkp | |||
| The Untold Story of CTV | With Jeremy Rubin | 26 Jun 2025 | 01:30:35 | |
The introduction of covenants to Bitcoin has been a long-standing debate—one recently brought back into consideration with the memetically-driven advocacy of “OP_CAT” by the Taproot Wizards. In previous history, the most likely contender for a covenants-enabling OP code was “CTV” (check template verify)—a simpler and more narrow way to enable covenants—that, while once considered radical, is now seen as the “conservative choice” relative to CAT. Serious discussions about implementing CTV have re-emerged with vigor—with many speculating it will be the “likely winner” for a potential covenant soft fork, given its popularity “across the aisles” of Bitcoin Season 1 and 2 players. This all being said—the full story of CTV has been almost 10 years in the making—with author Jeremy Rubin being put through the ringer of Bitcoin politics along the way. In this episode, Jeremy and I explore: -Jeremy’s early experiences with the judicial system after being accused of cybercrimes for web-based work as a student at MIT -The history of covenants proposals on Bitcoin and their cultural responses in the “Bitcoin Scaling” community -The development of OP_CTV and its distinctions from other covenants proposals -His experience navigating the murky waters of Bitcoin governance—and ultimately, the brutal political realities of attempting to upgrade Bitcoin As always, you can view this episode on YouTube or Spotify via the linktree in my bio—YouTube link in comments as well. This episode is powered by Best In Slot (@bestinslotxyz), the leading API for Ordinals and BRC20 data aggregation and indexing—as well as Citrea (@citrea_xyz ), a leading 'Bitcoin Rollup' technology and core contributor to the BitVM alliance. TIMESTAMPS: 01:00 Jeremy Rubin: Child Star Engineer and Libertarian 04:00 Jeremy’s first bitcoin purchase and hackathon 05:50 Subpoenaed by the State of New Jersey 10:30 Receiving support from MIT University 12:50 The first BTC airdrop at MIT! 16:20 Bitcoin VCs and the dawn of the scaling debate 18:40 ‘Scaling Bitcoin’ conference and creation of SegWit 23:50 What inspired CTV and covenants for Jeremy? 25:10 Reactive security wallet: protecting against hackers 27:30 Opposition to covenants and “being like Ethereum” 29:02 What types of covenants do people want? 35:00 Pitching “Bitcoin assets” to Ycombinator 37:00 Emulating covenants with pre-signed transactions 40:40 Why were sidechains not interested in covenants? 41:25 Liquid sidechain’s “major security event.” 43:30 What exactly does CTV do? 45:45 How is CTV different from other covenant proposals? 47:02 Campaigning for covenants - take 2 48:50 CTV is good for lightning! 49:46 How Taproot roadblocked Jeremy’s CTV campaign 55:00 Why does CTV need a supporting language? 57:20 Are there non-Bitcoin supporting languages? 01:00:00 Sapio: a complement to covenants 01:01:10 Did Sapio make CTV a less “conservative” change? 01:04:00 Jeremy’s political strategy for CTV 01:05:55 Marketing campaigns for Bitcoin softforks 01:09:00 Why was CTV so feared, despite Jeremy’s caution? 01:10:00 Andreas Antonopoulos’ influence on CTV FUD 01:12:20 Why Jeremy forfeited the CTV campaign 01:13:10 Re-engineering Sapio to be CTV independent 01:16:00 Reflecting on Bitcoin’s governance issues 01:19:20 Core devs unable to maintain an OP_Return change 01:20:04 How do we get Bitcoin devs to talk to the plebs? 01:24:15 Do devs just not want to be public-facing? 01:25:35 Forget grant programs: give devs seed funding 01:26:55 Where does Chaincode Labs stand out? | |||
| The Birth of BitVM and the Fight for "End Game" Money I with Robin Linus | 18 Jun 2025 | 01:10:07 | |
In early 2024, independent developer Robin Linus published a paper outlining how one theoretically could verify zero-knowledge proofs on native Bitcoin for near-trustless scaling. A feat long considered impossible without a soft fork—the paper went viral, amassing over 3 million views and “nerd-sniping” some of the brightest developers and investors in the space. Since then, a flood of builder effort has gone into actuating BitVM bridges—with many of the most highly valued “layer 2s” contributing to the effort (think: Citrea, Alpen Labs, Babylon and others)—despite broad criticisms that the technology is “clunky” and may be “impractical” for end users. While Linus notably refused venture investment—instead choosing to develop BitVM through the non-profit association ZeroSync—he’s worked closely with key teams to push the technology forward, resulting in optimizations like “BitVM2” and the more recent exploration of “Garbled Circuits,” which may be the key to making BitVM “practical” after all. In this episode, Robin and I discuss:- his process for developing BitVM and how he broke through what was otherwise considered an impossible constraint- why he’s refused venture-funding for his work on the project and the investor-related trauma that pushed him into “head to toe” Bitcoin Maximalism- why payments are the most “relevant” use-case to push forward for truly permissionless, decentralized money.- why Bitcoin has certainly not “already won,” and how we risk Bitcoin’s promise of permissionless-ness if trustless scaling is not solved. This episode additionally shares insight into the one-and-only Bitcoin Wizards IRC—a critical influence in Robin’s work—as well as key figures in the development of BitVM @supertestnet @jeremyrubin @liameagan and Peter Weille. -TIMESTAMPS01:05 How Robin Linus discovered Bitcoin06:05 Why payments are *necessary* for Bitcoin07:00 Can Bitcoin actually win as a medium of exchange?08:45 Robin’s experience with Ethereum09:55 Robin launched an Ethereum ICO in 2018???10:40 The drama that turned Robin into a Bitcoin maxi12:25 The Bitcoin Wizards Group Chat in 201815:00 Robin is the protégé of Pieter Wuille18:00 Why Robin is not convinced by lightning18:45 ZK was always the answer19:38 Starkware exploring STARKs on Bitcoin22:00 Using STARKs to “compress” Bitcoin23:30 Rethinking Bitcoin Script and what’s possible26:30 Hacking new opcodes into Bitcoin29:10 The “Hack a ZKP verifier into Bitcoin” groupchat31:25 Lamport signatures: enabling state on Bitcoin34:50 Optimistic verification and “trust minimized” Bitcoin systems37:20 Bridge operators in BitVM systems38:40 Is 1-of-n the “endgame” for Bitcoin?40:55 What softfork does Robin Linus want?43:20 The lifechanging BitVM whitepaper45:00 The dawn of BitVM focused companies46:20 Founding the BitVM Alliance49:20 Going to Stanford to learn more cryptography52:00 Why academics hate Bitcoin53:20 Convincing academics of POW over POS54:05 What is BitVM2? How it improves on BitVM156:55 Why AI Is Centralizing - like Fiat01:00:40 What are ZKCoins? Taproot Assets on Steroids01:03:00 Way cheaper than Taproot Assets01:05:00 How far will BitVM go without a softfork?01:05:50 BitVM3 Coming Soon??? Waiting for“Garbled Circuits” | |||
| History of ZKProofs | With Eli Ben Sasson | 10 Jun 2025 | 01:02:08 | |
The History of Zero-Knowledge Proofs | with ZK “Godfather” Eli Ben Sasson In 2013, computer science professor Eli Ben-Sasson presented his research on zero-knowledge proofs at a small Bitcoin conference outside of Standford University. The presentation immediately sparked interest from Bitcoin Core developer Greg Maxwell—leading Eli into over a decade of sustained work advancing ZK-based solutions for blockchain scalability and privacy.Today, zero-knowledge proofs are widely considered some of the most powerful and promising cryptographic primitives for scaling—with their full potential for Bitcoin simmering just beneath the surface of active development.This episode shares Eli’s early discussions of ZKPs for scaling, the use of proofs in privacy-enhancing technologies like Zcash, the explosion of ZKPs for Layer 2s on Ethereum… and his recent return to exploring ZKPs for Bitcoin. This episode nods heavily to other contributors in the space—including Adam Back, Jeremy Rubin, Robin Linus, Ethan Heilman and others. Thanks in advance to Nathan Jeffay and the Starkware team for making this episode possible! SHOW PARTNERS: Best In Slot—leading aggregator for Bitcoin-native assets https://bestinslot.xyz/ Citrea—Making truly decentralized "Bapps" (Bitcoin applications) possible through BitVM and Zero Knowledge Proofs https://citrea.xyz/ Unisat Wallet—for trading BRC20 and Alkanes assets https://unisat.io/ TIMESTAMPS ___ 00:51 Eli Ben-Sasson: Godfather of ZKPs02:15 Revealing Proof Research to Bitcoiners04:15 Meeting Greg Maxwell; Mike Hearn06:10 ZCash: Bringing ZK Based Privacy for Crypto07:05 SNARKs and STARKs Explained08:10 Would Satoshi Approve of Bitcoin STARKs?11:41 ZCash Privacy Versus Monero13:45 When did the ZKP era begin on Ethereum?16:34 What’s different about ZK STARKs?18:40 Vitalik and STARKs on Ethereum with Starkware21:10 Academics finally appreciating STARKs23:18 Healthy competition in the ZK industry24:20 What is Starknet?25:50 What is an L2, in Eli’s view?27:20 Focustree, an app on Starknet30:00 How Eli arrived at Bitcoin Season 234:45 When did ZK look realistic for Bitcoin?36:55 Eli first heard about OP_CAT39:30 Why Lightning isn’t good enough40:30 When did Starkware start focusing on OP_CAT?44:20 Runes bridge to Starknet!46:00 Expanding Starknet staking to BTC48:20 Why is OP_CAT “barely enough” for Bitcoin L2s?51:00 The real reason people oppose OP_CAT, per Eli53:00 The risks of *not* changing Bitcoin55:35 The weakness of Bitcoin’s lack of governance01:00:15 We will need to softfork for quantum! | |||
| Digital Property Rights & ZKPs | With Edan Yago | 22 May 2025 | 01:07:16 | |
Edan Yago has been in the “Bitcoin DeFi” ecosystem since before that term was a thing. An early adopter of Rootstock, Yago developed the “largest DeFi ecosystem in Bitcoin” through DEX @sovryn before becoming obsessed with Zero Knowledge Proofs and the promise of BitVM for enabling more trustless rails into and out of Bitcoin. While Yago has most recently been working on the modular-style BitVM bridge @bitcoinOS - we got deep in this episode about the early days of Bitcoin DeFi - and Bitcoin in general - including: – Why the internet didn’t work for libertarians… until bitcoin came along. – Why the concept of “securities” is fundamentally flawed– Why Bitcoin’s taproot upgrade was the true unlock for Bitcoin Season 2– The under-appreciated role of Etheruem in “testnet-ing” Zero Knowledge Proofs– Why BOS decided NOT to build a rollup after all… and how they become the BitVM bridge for @cardano As always, this episode can be viewed on Spotify or YouTube—full episode in the comments or linktree in my bio. This episode is powered by Best In Slot—the leading API for Ordinals and BRC20 data aggregation and indexing.TIMESTAMPS: —01:08 Edan Yago, founder of BitcoinOS01:58 How Yago discovered the Bitcoin whitepaper03:20 What was so intriguing about Bitcoin?05:58 Yago’s childhood gold story08:00 Yago’s many Bitcoin ventures: from BTC gaming to BTC banking12:20 Did Yago invent “blockchain not Bitcoin”!?14:40 Using Bitcoin for remittances17:00 Getting debanked by JPMorgan19:30 Hot take: Bitcoin exchanges are a grift20:45 Yago’s complicated take on tokens22:50 “There are no such thing as securities”25:40 Our population is native to true free markets28:50 Wildcat banking: America’s most prosperous time30:35 Moving away from the regulated space33:13 The genius of decentralized stablecoins: Maker and Curve36:45 Yago launches Sovryn: Bitcoin DEX on Rootstock38:23 Sovryn’s success: earning dividends in BTC40:30 Rootstocks problems: security and user frictions42:50 How ZK Proofs changed everything45:10 Yago’s early research into trustless bridging46:45 The “holy shit” BitVM moment48:15 Explaining Taproot and Taptrees50:50 Verifying ZK Proofs on Bitcoin: What it meant52:00 Major L1s coming home to Bitcoin52:40 BitcoinOS: Bring everything home to Bitcoin55:45 Crypto doesn’t know what it’s trying to do56:50 Vitalik’s loss of patience and Ethereum’s mistake58:20 Why we have too many tokens and blockchains59:42 Why ZK trims away the redundant chains01:00:32 What is a “Bitcoin Operating System”?01:02:42 Graduating for “bridging” and “unchaining” crypto01:06:20 Even in a pile of dirt, you’ll find a diamond | |||
| The Problem With Bitcoin L2s | With Mike Casey | 15 May 2025 | 00:57:01 | |
Michael Casey was brought on by MARA to address an often overlooked problem in the world of Bitcoin Layer 2s… they generally don’t contribute much to the security budget of Layer 1 Bitcoin. We often hear concerns about fees being either too high OR too low depending on how you look at it… too high if you’re optimizing for 8 billion people being able to use the network in a self-custodial way—but too low if your goal is maintaining network security as Bitcoin block rewards continue to halve over time. In this episode, we discuss:- Why MARA is funding a Bitcoin side-chain development proje- The power of merge mining in solving this “fee-scaling dilemma” - How Bitcoin was used for payments in a pre-Lightning world- Why L2s ultimately need to pay Bitcoin miners to sustain the network in the long runWe also cover some fun Bitcoin history—like the impacts of Bitcoin’s cultural shift from being “network-focused” to “asset-focused,” why BIP300 may have been a good idea after all, and the little known history of Paul Sztorc’s BitAssets.As always, this episode can be viewed on Spotify or YouTube—full episode in the comments or linktree in my bio. This episode is powered by Best In Slot—the leading API for Ordinals and BRC20 data aggregation and indexing.TIMESTAMPS00:25 Intro to Mike Casey01:08 Why did MARA launch Anduro sidechain?02:00 Anduro: a merged-mined Bitcoin sidechain03:50 Are we thinking about Bitcoin fees enough?08:00 Price is rising - where are the fees!?09:30 When Bitcoin truly becomes vulnerable11:18 Will nation state funded mining take over?15:30 Mike’s role before working at MARA18:20 Mike gets obsessed with Bitcoin’s price21:00 The GM director’s Bitcoin presentation22:44 Mike moving on from GM to MARA24:40 Anduro chains: Alice and Coordinate26:10 Coordinate: a fork of Bitcoin core29:15 Fairer fee market: dutch auction fee mechanism31:50 Coordinate is getting OP_CAT!33:00 Spending BTC is long dead34:00 How does Coordinate compare to Lightning?34:55 Taproot Assets are quantum vulnerable!41:50 Taproot: Schnnor signatures and MAST43:00 Can the BitVM L2s be quantum resistant?44:40 Mike doesn’t want OP_CAT46:29 Ethereum’s Rollup Problem47:30 What about BIP 300?49:30 What are Bit Assets?51:00 There’s no ignoring Ordinals as a miner53:40 Bitcoin had the first NFTs54:45 DEXs on Coordinate56:00 Let’s not see Ordinals die | |||
| Fee-Market Maximalism | With Rena Shah | 07 May 2025 | 00:59:31 | |
Stacks was one of the first “Bitcoin L2s” (or “Bitcoin scalers” if you’ll call it that) that has stayed incredibly relevant in the Bitcoin Season 2 era. From conducting the first regulated token sale to becoming a face of the Ordinals ecosystem, Trustmachines COO Rena Shah guides us through the network’s history, and why she believes its positioned to keep both Bitcoin’s network and ethos alive. In this episode, we discussed:
This episode is powered by Best In Slot—the leading API for Ordinals and BRC20 data aggregation and indexing.TIMESTAMPS: 1:17 Stacks: an OG Bitcoin Layer 3:35 STX: The first regulated token sale 6:17 How STX proved itself to the SEC 9:55 Was STX needed to keep the Stacks ecosystem funded? 11:13 Stacks consensus explained 14:20 Stacks staking, mining, and “where the yield comes from” 15:25 Bitcoin finality with the Stacks Nakamoto upgrade 17:40 Stacks before the Ordinals era 19:35 What did Satoshi want from Bitcoin? 22:06 The crypto shift from “world computer” to “decentralized finance” 24:06 Bitcoin staking products with Stacks? 25:42 Stacks as the first ecosystem to embrace Ordinals 27:10 Rena’s inscriptions of her father’s voice notes 29:05 Stacks, XVerse, and bootstrapping Ordinals infrastructure 30:45 When did the Bitcoin L2 explosion start? 32:08 When did Stacks start calling itself a “Layer 2?” 33:29 What happens if there are so few L1 transactions? 35:50 Bitcoin fees should be higher! 37:39 Will Bitcoin become a medium of exchange? 40:10 Rena doesn’t like the Strategic Bitcoin Reserve 42:30 HODLers are not securing the Bitcoin network 44:00 Trust Machines: Building out the Bitcoin economy 45:36 From Blockstack to Stacks Foundation and Hiro 48:38 Who are the validators of the Stacks network? 51:52 Stacks has more devs than Bitcoin Core - with very few grants 55:42 Is crypto all collapsing back to Bitcoin? 57:00 Granite: Aave-style lending on Stacks 58:46 Aiming for a “trustless” Stacks layer with BitVM LISTEN / SUBSCRIBE TO THE PODCAST: › YouTube: / @bitcoinrails › X/Twitter: https://x.com/isabelfoxenduke › Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5uPrBxvD691TpTqjijudkO?si=571634b88d574911 CONNECT WITH ISABEL: › Email: bitcoinrails@gmail.com › LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/isabel-foxen-duke-87272423/ › X/Twitter: https://x.com/isabelfoxenduke Bitcoin #Ordinals #BRC20 #Runes #BitVM #zkp | |||
| The Great Covenants Debate | With Red and Janusz | 23 Apr 2025 | 00:55:45 | |
If you’re following Ordinals, you’ve likely heard the term “OP_CAT,” a proposed Bitcoin opcode popularized by the Taproot Wizards In this episode, I brought on Janusz and Red from Bitcoin Layers to break down what OPCAT is, how it works, and what it makes possible for Bitcoin—hint hint: you’re gonna learn all about ‘covenants’ and their role in trustless bridging in this episode.Of course, this interview wouldn’t be complete without a breakdown of other covenant-enabling opcodes on the table—especially OP_CTV and OP_TXHASH.Fair warning: this episode goes deep into what an OP_CAT (or covenants) future for Bitcoin might look like… as well as the potential dark side of “doing nothing.”In this episode, we discuss:-The difference between CTV, TXHASH, and CAT-Why more expressivity isn’t always better-The Risks and Rewards of upgrading (+ the great script restoration debate)-Is the window for making changes to Bitcoin closing?-Why ossification won’t matter in a post-OPCAT worldThis episode is powered by Best In Slot—the leading API for Ordinals and BRC20 data aggregation and indexing.TIMESTAMPS: 0:00 Intro01:20 Janus and Red’s backgrounds03:30 What Ordinals revealed about degens and Bitcoin05:48 What the fuck is a covenant?06:38 Specific proposals that enable covenants: CTV, TXHash, OP_CAT07:55 Using covenants for bridging09:20 Are there limits to CTV?11:15 What is TXHash?13:20 What about OP_CAT?15:35 OP_CAT enables SNARKs17:30 Red’s analogy comparing the 3 proposals20:00 How many Opcodes should we introduce?21:15 Bitcoin’s Final Upgrade? Running out of time24:00 The consequences of not changing Bitcoin26:50 Bitcoin rollups will benefit Bitcoin security31:57 Do we need to break BTC’s 21m supply cap?35:00 Softforks can help more than just rollups38:00 Every Bitcoin L2 is trusted right now42:55 What does Bitcoin “scaling” mean?44:00 Lightning can actually be trustless46:20 Do all L2s need an L1 transaction to onboard?52:10 Money making as a BitVM operator- https://x.com/januszg_ - https://x.com/redvelvetzip - https://x.com/bitcoinlayers LISTEN / SUBSCRIBE TO THE PODCAST:› YouTube: / @bitcoinrails › X/Twitter: https://x.com/isabelfoxenduke › Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5uPrBxvD691TpTqjijudkO?si=571634b88d574911 CONNECT WITH ISABEL:› Email: bitcoinrails@gmail.com › LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/isabel-foxen-duke-87272423/ › X/Twitter: https://x.com/isabelfoxenduke #Bitcoin #Ordinals #BRC20 #Runes #BitVM #zkp | |||
| BIP 110 & The Future of Soft Forks | SUPER TESTNET | 16 Jun 2026 | 01:28:44 | |
One of Bitcoin's most prolific experimental developers, Super Testnet is known for building software at the frontier of Bitcoin research — including notable contributions to BitVM, Drivechains, Lightning, and numerous prototypes that have pushed the boundaries of Bitcoin's design space. More recently, he's become a prominent participant in discussions surrounding BIP 110, a proposed soft fork intended to restrict transaction patterns associated with Ordinal inscriptions. While Super broadly agrees with the proposal's underlying goals, he argues its current restrictions are overly broad and could impact "legitimate" monetary uses of Bitcoin. These concerns led him to share a User-Rejected Soft Fork proposal last week, creating a rare case study in how Bitcoin's consensus rules evolve in practice. In more detail, Super Testnet & I discuss:
This episode of Bitcoin Rails is brought to you by my sponsors: LayerTwo Labs — developing research, software, and technologies for scaling Bitcoin via the integration of Drivechains (BIP 300/301) Hashi on Sui Network — a primitive for executing Bitcoin Defi transactions, without having to trust a federated bridge or other centralized entity BitBox — an open-source Bitcoin-only hardware wallet, with smooth UX and no compromises on security. Check out Bitbox [dot] swiss and use code BITCOINRAILS to get a discount | |||
| Make Bitcoin Quantum Resistant | With Hunter Beast | 08 Apr 2025 | 01:23:13 | |
Is Bitcoin going to break? Don’t roll your eyes: quantum computing may be a more realistic threat to Bitcoin than you think, and it may only be a few years away. Thankfully, Bitcoin dev Hunter Beast is preparing us in advance with the thoughtful BIP 360 – an effort to bring post quantum cryptography to Bitcoin.In this episode, we discussed:- How quantum computing threatens your Bitcoin wallet- The vulnerability of Satoshi’s one million BTC - How to stay protected against quantum (for now!)- How banks and governments are preparing for quantum- BIP 360: Pay to Quantum Resistant Hash This episode is powered by Best In Slot—the leading API for Ordinals and BRC20 data aggregation and indexing. TIMESTAMPS:___ 00:00 Intro02:05 What is quantum computing? 04:30 How could quantum threaten your Bitcoin wallet? 06:50 Addresses that are safe from quantum 09:13 Satoshi’s coins are in danger! 11:25 What happens if Satoshi’s coins are touched? 14:45 Do we softfork to shield Satoshi’s coins? 16:38 “Transitory inflation” for bitcoin after quantum 21:05 Why Taproot addresses are vulnerable 23:50 Do NOT reuse your Bitcoin addresses! 26:03 When will Quantum become a threat? 28:34 The long/short exposure attack; explained 31:45 Protection using private mempools 33:20 Why all the new Bitcoin L2s are in danger 37:45 Quantum is 5 to 10 years away, governments fear 40:34 Non-Bitcoin systems threatened by quantum 42:26 Centralized systems can adapt to quantum 43:50 Hunter’s BIP: Post quantum cryptography in Bitcoin 47:40 Hunter’s three new signature algorithms 53:48 Is new cryptography on Bitcoin risky? 56:33 Why not just stick to hash-based cryptography? 58:49 A 16X discount for quantum resistant addresses? 01:02:30 Creating quantum resistant multisig addresses 01:04:00 What is Frost? 01:06:50 The long process of approving a BIP 01:08:30 What developers think of Hunter’s BIP 01:10:00 Matt Corallo’s concerns with Hunter’s approach 01:11:00 Steps to implementing the BIP 360 01:17:00 Where to learn more about BIP 360 01:17:50 Who can push the button to change Bitcoin? LISTEN / SUBSCRIBE TO THE PODCAST: › YouTube: / @bitcoinrails › X/Twitter: https://x.com/isabelfoxenduke › Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5uPrBxvD691TpTqjijudkO?si=571634b88d574911 CONNECT WITH ISABEL: › Email: bitcoinrails@gmail.com › LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/isabel-foxen-duke-87272423/ › X/Twitter: https://x.com/isabelfoxenduke Bitcoin #Ordinals #BRC20 #Runes #BitVM #zkp | |||
| Cracking The Bitcoin Bridging Problem | With Alexei Zamayatin | 02 Apr 2025 | 01:18:59 | |
Build on Bitcoin (BOB) co-founder Alexei Zamayatin is older than he looks folks: he’s been researching how to build “trustless” Bitcoin bridge architecture since 2018, long before it felt anything close to a mainstream conversation. When Robin Linus came out with BitVM, he believed he found the answer to this impossible problem, and has since poured his efforts into BitVM2 and BOB – a “hybrid L2” between Bitcoin and Ethereum.In this episode, we discussed:- Alexei’s long history researching Bitcoin bridges - The academic work on distributed systems - How BitVM changed the game for Bitcoin - The hybrid architecture of BOB - How BOB merged interop, Babylon, and BitVM bridgingThis episode is powered by Best In Slot—the leading API for Ordinals and BRC20 data aggregation and indexing. TIMESTAMPS:___1:50 How did BOB come to be? 4:28 How early was the “Bitcoin L2” conversation? 5:45 The problem with merged mining 11:40 Alexei’s growing interest in Bitcoin DeFi 13:17 Never a fan of lightning 15:00 The Blocksize Wars begin 17:00 Academic early research on “distributed systems.” 19:40 Bitcoin’s “dark age” after SegWit 20:30 Alexei’s super early work on “trustless” bridging 22:10 Alexei’s PHD: Trustless bridging is impossible 25:00 Pre BitVM bridging solutions 28:40 Alexei’s work on Polkadot and intro to ZKPs 32:50 Ethereum is hard to verify 34:35 Starting work on BOB 38:50 The Hybrid Consensus: Merged Mining and Ethereum Rollups 42:25 How BitVM derailed Alexei’s plans 47:00 Working with Robin Linus on a ZK bridge 49:35 SNARKs vs STARKs 50:35 The limitation of BitVM, how we’ve improved it 52:30 BitVM: Making challenging proofs permissionless 55:50 The challenge / response game of BitVM 59:55 BitVM2: Splitting programs to fit into Bitcoin blocks 01:03:00 Competition in the BitVM design space 01:05:00 Focusing on BOB, leaving BitVM to Fiamma 01:07:00 BOB is an “interoperable execution environment”01:09:00 Build in isolation; get liquidity fragmentation 01:10:30 Is BOB the most secure Bitcoin L2? 01:13:05 How BitVM makes Babylon staking more secure 01:17:50 “Trust minimization dick measuring” › https://x.com/alexeiZamyatin LISTEN / SUBSCRIBE TO THE PODCAST: › YouTube: / @bitcoinrails › X/Twitter: https://x.com/isabelfoxenduke › Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5uPrBxvD691TpTqjijudkO?si=571634b88d574911 CONNECT WITH ISABEL: › Email: bitcoinrails@gmail.com › LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/isabel-foxen-duke-87272423/ › X/Twitter: https://x.com/isabelfoxenduke Bitcoin #Ordinals #BRC20 #Runes #BitVM #zkp | |||
| Domo's Perspective & the History of BRC20 | With Domo | 27 Mar 2025 | 01:14:29 | |
A particularly special episode—@domodata sits down with me for his first video interview ever—to recount the unique history of the BRC20 protocol.The first Bitcoin-native token standard ever created, BRC20 came into existence almost overnight and quickly emerged as a multibillion dollar asset class in 2024.This episode covers the influences leading up to the birth of $ORDI, the roles of different players involved along the way, and how core maintainers are preparing for their next major update—affectionately dubbed “BRC 2.0” by Bitcoin educator @bobbodilyAdditionally, Domo shares his memory of key moments in BRC20 history—including:—the development of BRC20's canonical indexer and details of Domo's working relationship with @unisat_wallet—Ordi's listing on OKX and Binance (+ what he believes triggered listing decisions by those exchanges)—the creation of the Layer 1 Foundation and the responsibilities of its member organizations in maintaining the core protocol—why Domo has never accepted funding (including advisory fees) from either of his lead maintainer companies @unisat_wallet or @bestinslotxyzWe also go into depth about what sparked the “BRC20 indexer wars” and how stakeholders are ensuring the integrity of its consensus going forward.This episode includes special mentions of major influences in the evolution of BRC20—including @redphonecrypto @robertjfclarke @Bitcoin_Punks_ @satsnames @bestinslot @unisat and others.This episode can be viewed on YouTube or Spotify using the linktree in Isabel’s bio—YouTube episode is also in the comments.As always, thanks to the show's sponsor @bestinslotxyz for making this episode possible— in addition to being a core maintainer of BRC20, Best In Slot maintains the leading API for Ordinals and BRC20 data aggregation and indexing.TIMESTAMPS:01:04 Domo, Ethereum, and how he found Bitcoin05:04 Why Ordinals clicked for Domo07:58 Ordinals going from underground to mainstream11:13 Who helped Domo ideate around Ordinals? 16:21 How did Domo announce ORDI, the “first” BRC20?20:02 Why did BRC20 blow up so fast?22:25 How did UniSat get involved with BRC20?25:12 Catalysts for the BRC20/ fungibles boom26:35 When did BRC20 get good pricing data?29:00 Domo’s stresses during the ORDI blowup31:34 How involved was Domo with UniSat early on?35:00 Exchanges instantly deciding to list ORDI37:38 How did Best In Slot start indexing BRC20s?41:48 Centralization of indexers44:18 Coordinating indexers around Ordinals forks47:25 Relaunching the Layer 1 Foundation49:25 The relationship between Domo, UniSat, and Best In Slot51:02 Upgrading BRC20: Swap and Programmability Module54:55 How the programmability module came to be57:00 “Standard Maxiness” is hurting the industry59:00 Plugging BRC20 into everything else01:00:50 Do programmable metaprotocols solve interoperability?01:02:50 Metaprotocols and L2s: do they compete?01:05:00 Does BRC20 have an advantage over the metaprotocols?01:06:20 How should the community approach Bitcoin’s issues?01:08:50 Competition rising in the BItcoin space01:10:00 People are underestimating metaprotocols01:11:55 Single step transfer for BRC20 | |||
| Alkanes Are Fueling Programmable Bitcoin | With Oyl Dynamics | 13 Mar 2025 | 01:03:19 | |
Even after Ordinals, there’s a lot of infrastructure needed to make the Bitcoin economy work: wallets, indexers, interoperability, and programmable metaprotocols. Today's guests – Oyl Dynamics co-founders Alec Taggart and Ray Pulver – are building one software suite to tackle all of these problems, including the tools for anyone to spin up their own metaprotocol!In today’s episode, we discussed:The advantages of building on Bitcoin vs EthereumThe need for interoperability between Bitcoiin metaprotocolsHow Alkanes brings programmability to BitcoinWhether Wasm could overtake EVM in cryptoAirheads, $DIESEL, and marketing with an assetThis episode is powered by Best In Slot—the leading API for Ordinals and BRC20 data aggregation and indexing.00:30 What is Oyl Dynamics?02:30 Alec’s entry into Ordinals05:33 The need for Bitcoin wallets and indexing06:50 Indexing with Bitcoin vs Ethereum nodes09:10 Selling indexing tools to Bitcoin builders10:10:Metashrew: Spinning up any Bitcoin metaprotocol12:00 Ethereum vs Bitcoin wallets12:55 Unisat and OKX dominating the indexer13:55 The hardest asset should be easy to trade15:05 How BRC20s and Domo influence Oyl’s design16:00 Aggregating marketplace data for Runes, Ordinals, BRC20s18:00 Building a trustless AMM for Bitcoin18:40 From BRC20s, to Runes, to Programmable Runes22:20 What does “composable” mean?25:30 Alkanes: creating interoperability between all of the Protorunes29:55 The Oyl strategy: ultimate builder support33:10 Solving cross-metaprotocol interoperability35:00 The spectrum of programmability on Bitcoin36:00 Casey’s genius with Runes37:20 Where did the name “Alkanes” come from?39:00 Only BTC needed at Alkanes40:20 Using Ethereum as Bitcoin’s testnet42:00 Are there unique advantages of building on Bitcoin?43:00 What is special about Wasm?44:25 Will Wasm overwhelm EVM’s network effects?46:10 Is there any downside to building with Wasm?49:00 Wasm wasn’t ready when Ethereum launched50:25 Oyl’s Ordinal Collection: Airheads and Arthur Hayes54:38 Marketing tied to an asset you can trade55:30 Fundraising and Oyl’s $DIESEL EXP system01:00:20 How do people mine $DIESEL?› https://x.com/OylDynamics › https://x.com/oylwallet LISTEN / SUBSCRIBE TO THE PODCAST:› YouTube: / @bitcoinrails › X/Twitter: https://x.com/isabelfoxenduke › Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5uPrBxvD691TpTqjijudkO?si=571634b88d574911 CONNECT WITH ISABEL:› Email: bitcoinrails@gmail.com › LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/isabel-foxen-duke-87272423/ › X/Twitter: https://x.com/isabelfoxenduke #Bitcoin #Ordinals #BRC20 #Runes #BitVM #zkp | |||