If your narcissist ex won’t leave you alone—even after the divorce—you know how exhausting it is to feel like there’s no real break, no matter how much space you try to create.

Here are six powerful strategies you can use right now to create distance from a narcissistic ex-husband who won’t back off. As you’ll see in this interview with my guest Lee, these are real, battle-tested tools—clear, practical, and effective.

If you’re married and quietly wondering if what you’re experiencing is emotional abuse, you don’t have to figure it out alone…take our free emotional abuse quiz for more clarity.

1. Believe Yourself

 You can believe yourself because he’s gonna lie about you and about everything.

For example, many women send clear messages about like pickup times, pick up locations, and he’ll message back and say, “You don’t communicate with me. You never tell me what’s going on.”

I had to really anchor myself in reality and to do that, I did number two.

2. Get Everything in Writing

 I limited all communication to a parenting app, and I used our Family Wizard. There’s others out there.

For me, it was a game changer because there was a calendar, an info bank, everything I needed to keep everything in one place. It didn’t magically change the outcome of my custody case, but it did keep me grounded in reality, which is what I really needed.

So, no more phone calls. No more casual conversations. Everything goes through written communication.

3. Use Strategic COMMUNICATION

 Knowing how to anticipate what he’s going to say and then, what specific words and phrases to use in response will protect you and get you out of his cycle of chaos. I’ll be covering some of the strategies I teach in The Living Free Workshop later in this interview, as Lee shares how she used them in her situation.

4. Learn Strategic Boundaries

 They are things that you can do to protect yourself with literally no words and no communication. Say he’s stepping on your foot over and over, and you keep telling him, “Hey, please stop stepping on my foot,” and you go to therapy about him stop stepping on your foot. And he keeps doing it.

It’s like wearing steel toed boots. You don’t have to explain it to him or announce it. You just put them on and protect your foot, no words required.

5. Focus on YouRSELF AND THE LIFE YOU WANT TO CREATE

 He is going to do everything he can to make that impossible, because he is always trying to get your attention by doing crazy things.

I remember standing in my kitchen and I was like, I want to help my kids with their homework. I wanna be present with my kids. And the notifications on my phone were like blowing up in that moment. I just turned it off and focused on the thing that I wanted to do that day. As I started to focus on what I wanted rather than his chaos, I really felt a shift.

You deserve more than just getting through the day. You deserve to rebuild a life that feels steady, peaceful, and yours again.

Start small. It doesn’t have to be dramatic to be powerful.

Transcript: When Your Narcissist Ex Won’t Leave You Alone

Anne: A member of the BTR community, we’re going to call her Lee, is on today’s episode. She’s going to be sharing her story. And then also how she implemented the strategies in the Living Free Workshop.

Welcome Lee.

Lee: Hi, thanks for having me.

Anne: Many women in this situation go through years and years of emotional abuse and psychological abuse and they don’t even realize it. So let’s talk about your experience. You married really young. In the beginning did you realize it was abuse?

Lee: No, I did not. Not until pretty much in my mid 30’s. I got married at 19 and we were really young. so I thought it was just a maturity thing and that eventually we’d get past that. There was also addiction and again I thought that was a just a thing. That we would be able to at some point get over once we grew up.

I Thought Divorce Would Remove Me From My Ex-Husband’s Chaos

Anne: What were some of the things that he was choosing?

Lee: He really struggled throughout our entire marriage with exploitative material. Unfortunately, it just became a bigger and bigger problem. It was always in our home. I think I just became immune to that part of it. So I thought, Oh, as soon as we grew up, he’ll stop drinking and looking at it.

Anne: A lot of victims have that feeling. Like okay, once he can get this thing under control, then he’s not going to act like this anymore. That’s hard to recognize that they are experiencing betrayal trauma in marriage. That all of these behaviors are abusive. They’re not going to get better. What do you think was the biggest contributing factor to not recognize it was abuse throughout those years?

I Didn’t Recognize How Comparing Myself To Other Women Kept Me From Seeing The Truth

Lee: Comparison, and I feel like so many women do this, and this is something that I am so glad we get to talk about today, because I’ve been thinking a lot about it as I hear different stories from friends and family members.

Just the idea that someone else’s situation is worse than yours. Or your life isn’t that bad because you have a nicer home, or my life isn’t that bad because he doesn’t say this to me. Or he comes home at a decent hour. Hearing other people’s stories and finding one thing that might have been better in my life than someone else’s. It made me assume that it was still okay to stay in that relationship with my narcissist ex.

Anne: That makes sense to me. What were the things that you thought were better?

When My Narcissist Ex Won’t Leave Me Alone It’s Because He Wants My Pity

Anne: What are the things you are proud of?

Lee: It’s crazy because you don’t see the things that are in your relationship at that time. He might have done the dishes one night. And I took that one night and pulled it along for everything else. He never cussed me out or called me a name. Even though he was really unsupportive, he was very generous with his time.

Anne: So, at times you’re thinking, well, he doesn’t scream at our kids, so he must be a good guy. Or he didn’t scream that one time, or the other night he was great, so I’m lucky. A lot of women don’t realize he’s abusive because they think, I’m so lucky. He’s such a great guy, that’s really common.

Lee: I also don’t think women realize how much effort and work they put in to make their spouse a good guy. And what I mean by that is. A lot of the things I was proud of were what I was doing, not him. I would make sure we were at family gatherings. And also made sure our kids looked good.

I made sure we were going to church on time. And you know, all those things that were important to me. Things that I felt were essential to building a good family, I did. Instead of looking at how much work I was putting in I included him in that. I made it like it was his, like these were his accomplishments.

I think that that’s where my mind got a little bit skewed. Like we had a good family and I looked at it like that. But I didn’t realize that so much of it was my own work and wasn’t really the work of my narcissist ex.

I Felt Shame & Pressure To Communicate With Him

Anne: Yeah. A lot of women do that. They attribute characteristics to him that actually she has. That comparison is interesting because there’s always going to be someone who seems like they have it worse. So you think well all marriages must have problems. But the problems we have seem “manageable” or something like that. So here you are thinking these are just maturity things or that you’re so lucky in some ways.

Were there any other factors that kept you from seeing the abuse?

Lee: Shame. I married really young and a lot of people questioned that. Also I had family and friends both tell me I was too young. I felt the pressure to stay and keep it together. I think that’s why I kept it together and stayed a lot longer. And I didn’t want to admit to anybody that I failed.

Anne: You weren’t failing. You had a spouse that was failing, but it feels like that when you’re being emotionally abused. Because you think everything is your fault, right? Or that you’re responsible for everything . So that’s common as well.

My Narcissist Ex Won’t Leave Me Alone, I Need Support

Lee: I had just a few friends that I would communicate with about it. The problem with those friends, even though they were a good outlet for a release. They didn’t really understand my situation because they didn’t have a spouse like that.

I mean, they knew it was bad, they felt sorry for me. I could feel that they understood it. They gave me the space to be able to talk to them, which I appreciate. But they just weren’t in the same situation. And a lot of times, the friends that I did communicate with had pretty decent marriages. It made me feel again, like I needed to be more like them. I needed to maybe not complain as much, you know?

Anne: Okay, so how do you recognize that it is abuse

Lee: I ended up in a Facebook group with one of the members of Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and she was very open about it, which I’m so grateful for. And I’m so grateful for women who are open about it. The group that we were in had actually nothing to do with this topic. She was just open and shared a lot of her personal life.

Again, I’m so grateful for that. And the BTR community, opened up a whole new world for me. I started to understand that everybody’s looks different. Even still then at the very beginning. I don’t think I was ready to let go of the idea of keeping my marriage together.

My Turning Point: When He Texted Me Emotionally Abusive Videos

Lee: Then it started to get really bad, my husband sent me some really abusive videos. Videos of him talking to me in a very violent and perverse way.

I didn’t know what to do. I finally sent them to the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group. Within 10 minutes I had a whole group of women together supporting me and helping me through this.

Anne: With the support of the women in the BTR Group. Is this the moment you realized that woah, this is really serious?

Lee: I really believe that was the moment. It became very clear to me. I always felt like maybe I was being dramatic. So when someone actually got to witness it and said to me, this is not okay. Then they said, this is abusive. I realized that it was time, probably, to make a big change and to open up and start sharing a little bit more of my experiences with my narcissist ex. I wanted the BTR community to understand the magnitude.

My Ex Won’t Leave Me Alone, It Creates So Much Chaos

Lee: It seems so big at the time and so scary. I worried about his reaction, my finances, and my kids. Also about this home we just rented together what would we do. We just got a new dog and there were so many things that I was worried about. I was scared. Each step in divorcing a narcissist was a step that I didn’t think I was capable of doing. And they told me I could. And so I kept taking that step.

Anne: What about your real life friends and family? What did they think?

Lee: I had left him seven different times before this time. He just kept pulling me back because he wouldn’t leave me alone. I think family and the friends that I opened up to were hesitant to believe it this time too. They were excited, all of them were going to continually support me.

Anne: Let’s talk about the first few months after you left. How did you get through that time?

Lee: So that was a really, really hard time for me. I would make fun of the the situation, by saying I lived in a house of depression. After work I would come home and lay on the couch. I watched the same movies over and over and over again every night. Lord of the Rings and Forrest Gump. I was just really sad and fearful and I didn’t know if I could really do it financially. It didn’t feel real to me because I had tried so many times

When My Narcissist Ex Won’t Stop Contacting Me Little Miracles Can Give You Hope

Lee: While I was living in that house of depression, I didn’t really feel like I had a lot to live for. Then I bit into a delicious peach. I started looking for tender mercies. That’s what held me up along with the women from the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group. Constantly looking for those tender mercies and finding those simple things. A lot of times it feels so dark. And we feel like we need something of a greater magnitude to take us out of that darkness.

Instead of looking for those little things, that speck of light almost. And I do want to share one significant tender mercy. It’s a night I came home exhausted. I just wanted a bowl of cereal and a clean spoon. Like I said before, I hadn’t really been keeping up with my housework. There’s probably a lot of dishes and I just wanted there to be that one clean spoon.

When I opened up the drawer, there was one last clean spoon. I just remember thinking, thank you. Because that’s all I needed was a bowl of cereal and a clean spoon. I feel like it’s so important for women to hang on to those little moments every single day. To try to find something in their life that is small but so significant.

The Right Strategy To Live Free From My Narcissistic Ex

Anne: Oh, I love that story in the Living Free Workshop. We have an exercise about this. We call it the best possible tasks And best possible moments.

Here you’re calling it a tender mercy. So that’s awesome because those little things. can really give us a feeling of peace.

There’s another part of Living Free, where we’re focusing on our dreams, and what we want. Was there anything that you decided, Hey. I have a goal and I’m going to accomplish it.

Focusing On Personal Goals Brings Peace When Your Narcissist Ex Won’t Leave You Alone

Lee: I’ve had so many, but the one biggest one, this is crazy, I painted my piano pink.

In my relationship, I was always told that I couldn’t do anything, I would always want to do these projects. And he was a carpenter and he would always tell me that they were too hard. If I explained to him what I was going to do, he would tell me it wouldn’t turn out right.

He was always saying that it would look like garbage. So I was scared to do anything. I started painting this piano, I thought it was going to look like garbage. Because that’s what I had been told that anything I did was going to look like. And it is so beautiful.

I love that piano and it turned out so good and I moved into a permanent home this year, too. I want to remodel and do a little interior decorating that I’ve never gotten to do either, really. To really learn how to play that piano that I just finished painting and then set better boundaries for myself. I’m trying to work on boundaries. Then just strengthen my faith in my home and in myself, continue on with that.

What I Told My Friends Who Were Going Through The Same Thing

Anne: Do you have any advice for women who might have the same fears that you did?

Lee: Yeah, you need to find support. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is a great group for that. And I know I’m on this podcast. I want everyone to know I’m not pitching this because I’m on here. It changed my life, being a part of that group. I do not think I would be able to get out of my situation without their support. And that support hasn’t ended. That support continues on and it just keeps growing.

I haven’t ended those relationships, I’ve only grown and extended those relationships. As my situation changes, I just meet new people and new women and new friendships. That I’ve created in that group. The other thing is what we talked about in the beginning, and that’s don’t compare your situation to someone else’s.

I Found Out Some People Weren’t On My Team

Lee: That is so important and something that I wish all women would stop doing. I don’t think women recognize when it really, truly is doing them so much harm. Women should not look at someone else and say their situation’s worse, and mine isn’t.

I would encourage women to look more at, is the behavior acceptable? Are they happy? Is what their husband is doing in line with their beliefs and standards? And if they’re not, that’s the problem. It doesn’t need to be someone else’s standards or beliefs. It’s what they’re comfortable with. I wish a lot more women would look at that.

Anne: Meaning I’m not okay with exploitative material in my home, or I’m not okay with yelling, this is not acceptable for me in my home, and I don’t feel safe.

Lee: You also might find someone that says that it’s okay. I had a lot of friends tell me that, like, why was I upset? Or, I had people tell me that it’s okay that he’s drinking, we’re having a good time, those kind of things.

Again, that put a lot of shame and guilt on me. Because I thought I was taking the fun out of our lives. Or, I thought there was something wrong with me that I thought that it was wrong, and maybe it was okay. Maybe it was beneficial to our relationship.

How Personal Standards Can Protect You When Your Narcissist Ex Won’t Stop Creating Chaos

Anne: Having the confidence , to think other people might feel differently, but this is my home. This is my life. I deserve to feel safe. I want to be able to live a life that is consistent with my own values.

Lee: Yes, absolutely. I really wish I would have looked at those and told myself I wasn’t willing to accept that or put up with it. Now I’m going to be 35 and I know that there are so many things that I’m just not willing to put up with. Even though someone might tell me that they’re not significant enough or they’re not really a problem, I will go by my own standards.

That’s something that I’ve learned and would like to tell my younger self. Hey, don’t go by the world’s standards, I would go by my standards.

Anne: Even some women don’t go by, maybe, your church’s standards. What I mean by that is, people who might say, well, you just need to love and serve and then everything will be okay. Don’t judge or something. Those types of things that an external church or a therapist or somebody might put on you. To be like, no, tolerate this for some reason, or be patient with it for some reason. I deserve to feel safe in my own home.

This Analogy Helped Me More Than Anything

Lee: What you’re comfortable with, right? It’s what you’re comfortable with. Would you be comfortable with a rock in your shoe? And would you continue to walk with a rock in your shoe? Or would you remove that shoe and take out that rock? Even if someone said, you could walk a little bit longer, it’s okay. No, you’re uncomfortable with that rock in that shoe. You would take the time to sit down, and take off that shoe and take out that rock.

Anne: If someone said but don’t you feel bad for the rock? What’s the rock gonna do? How is that rock gonna get around without you? You can be like, the rock can do whatever it wants. It’s not going to be in my shoe. It’s an adult rock. It can handle it. Me taking it out has nothing to do with the rock. Whatever helps women to be like, I can do this, is what works. It’s different for everyone.

The Best Support I Could Find Got Me Through The Hardest Parts

Lee: I just want to say, because I know they’re gonna listen to this, to all my Betrayal Trauma Recovery women. That helped me through this, and the ones that I’m gonna meet in the future. I am so grateful for each and every single one of you. I really don’t think I could be where I am. And I don’t think I could be going where I’m going without their continual support. So I’m so grateful.

Anne: Have you found that being away from him has enabled you to grow stronger?

Lee: Absolutely. It has made me recognize it more, too. I actually have been dealing a lot with anger lately, as well. There’s those five or seven, grief cycles. I am in the cycle of anger. The anger for me is a protection. It’s like a shield. The problem with showing anger to an abuser is, it gets them the same amount of attention they’re seeking.

Anne: They’re not looking for peace. When peace becomes your absolute top priority.

Using The Most Effective Strategies To Get Your Narcissist Ex To Leave You Alone

Anne: Many women start using the strategies and the BTR Living Free Workshop. So you were really interested in implementing strategies to get some peace in your life. First of all, let’s talk about what your concerns were.

Lee: A lot of the women in the group I know experienced some alterations of reality. Because of the situations that their husbands have put them in. They like to twist your thoughts. I lived in that false reality. Anytime I had concerns where I knew something was real. He would alter my reality, confuse me and just convince me.

That what I was thinking was completely illogical or not accurate. As I went through my divorce he continued to do this, to manipulate things. He continued to tell me that I said what I never said. Or things that I did say he would say I never said.

That was really difficult to live like that. Always questioning my own reality and not knowing if what I was thinking was actually real. It was very confusing.

Documenting His Ongoing Behavior When Your Narcissist Ex Won’t Stop His Abuse

Lee: So, why I wanted to go into this is because I needed documentation of what I was saying and what he was saying. So I could trust myself almost more. And trust that what I knew to be true was truth and I had that evidence in writing.

Anne: So you have this evidence that he’s gaslighting you, emotionally and psychologically abusing you. You have this evidence that he’s trying to alter your reality. You’re thinking, I can’t communicate with him in any way, shape or form without him lying to me. Without him twisting the truth, without things going sideways.

Lee: Yeah, without crazy making because that’s what it was.

Anne: What were your concerns ? You’re thinking oh that would be amazing if I could stop interacting with him, but I’m scared it won’t work. Because what were the things at the beginning before you decided? Hey, I’m gonna try this out that held you back from even considering it at first.

Lee: When I tried to implement a little bit of this in the past, he said he was computer illiterate. Or he didn’t really know how to use technology.

The second was that he would use it to not communicate certain things about the children. While they were with him. Again, it would fall back onto, oh I was computer illiterate. So I forgot to tell you that I was going to drop them off later. Whether maybe not telling me that the kids were uncomfortable and wanted to come home. He would use it as an excuse to say oh, sorry couldn’t communicate with you.

I think that was my biggest fear was with the children. That if there was an emergency, how would we contact each other?

Overcoming Fears Helps Leave Behind The Chaos When Your Narcissistic Ex Won’t Stop

Anne: You were like, I really want to do this, but it just seems impossible. And I remember talking to you on the phone. And I said, the first step is believing that it’s possible. To know that you can. And then you just have to figure out the how. How did that change in mindset from, I don’t know, I can’t do this. How did that change of mindset help you to start actually looking for solutions?

Lee: How that helped me is I took away the impossibility of it and thought I need to do this. It wasn’t even that I can or can’t do it. I needed to do it. For my own sanity. I had to start implementing this. Otherwise, I just knew that this was going to be a constant cycle and a constant battle. I was going to constantly be questioning my own reality and I would just stay stuck in that cycle of his manipulation and abuse. So it just came to the point where there was no option. There was no choice. I had to do it.

Anne: So when you decide, now I know I’m doing this. Now I’m in the problem solving, how do I do it phase? What were the first things that you needed to consider before implementing it?

Lee: One of the first things that I needed to consider was. In case of an emergency, if something happened while the kids were in his care or my care. How would we communicate to each other? And I thought of a plan immediately. It wasn’t even that hard.

What Happens If I Don’t Really Want My Narcissistic Ex To Leave Me Alone?

Lee: All of a sudden it was fixed. I think that was my biggest hurdle. If I were to be honest with myself I think it was losing that connection with him. Even though I was going through this divorce process. Even though I was so badly hurt for so many years by him. There was still a connection that I had to him, losing that was somewhat painful for me.

I sold a car and even that had a connection to him that was painful for me to let go of in a weird way. The reality sank in. That can go two ways when that reality sets in. No hope of it getting better. That can lead to wanting to run back to that bad situation. That could lead to growth.

Actions To Take To Distance Yourself From Your Narcissist Ex

Lee: There was a pivotal moment where I knew I needed to do your Living Free Workshop. One catastrophic day my son had actually had a confrontation with him and I went to pick him up. We had an altercation outside of his family’s house. He did end up getting a little bit physical. Later on that evening, he took my daughters. And told them he was dropping them off in the middle of nowhere.

When I came to pick up my son, my narcissist ex wouldnt’t leave, I talked to him and I rolled down my window just a little bit. He was able to reach in the car and take my phone. During our marriage he was really obsessed with my phone too. He would wake me up in the middle of the night to go through my phone and keep me up all hours. He was really obsessive about it. And so it didn’t surprise me that he went for my phone again.

When I got out of the car to grab it from him, he started smacking me. Telling me to get away. Eventually, I gave up and thought, you know what, this isn’t worth it. I’m gonna walk away, and he threw the phone after that. It was after that day that I thought, you know what? I cannot live in this anymore.

Can I Get a Restraining Order Against a Narcissistic Ex Who Won’t Leave Me Alone?

Lee: So, that’s when I implemented what you had encouraged me to do. But I don’t know if you remember during that conversation. The other thing that you encouraged me to do, which was to get a restraining order. Finally I get that implemented and these two things came together.

Anne: Let’s talk about some common concerns I bring up in the workshop. Were you concerned that he wouldn’t participate?

I had a smile on my face when you said this, because they can’t not participate. If you block them on your phone, there’s nothing they can do about it. They can’t call you. They could call you from another number. But if you have a boundary for yourself that you never answer the phone, if it’s an unknown caller. You just wait for them to leave a message. If you block them on your email and delete your social media accounts. There’s nothing they can do about that.

Lee: How the protective order works here in Arizona is once they grant you that protective order. They send it to the sheriff’s department. It just automatically goes out. So it takes away you having to sit there debating should I, or shouldn’t I. Once it’s done, it’s done.

During that time, I was able to notify him that we would no longer be communicating verbally. Everything would go through email and he did put up a fight. This was through texts and he did put up a fight and say, that’s not going to work. I don’t do good with electronics. Now we’ve been doing this since June. He can email just fine. He is not computer illiterate and is perfectly capable.

My Narcissistic Ex Won’t Leave Me Alone — It’s Pushing Me to the Edge

Lee: Again, it goes back to him altering my reality or confusing me or making me believe something that’s not true. He had convinced me that he doesn’t understand, he’s not good with electronics. And that was part of my hesitation, was him convincing me he couldn’t do this. So there was no way. Like, how was I going to be able to communicate with him? When he didn’t know how to really write an email, which is what he told me.

And it ended up being not true. So, again, it goes back to that crazy making, and me questioning myself. And is this possible, based off of his lies. So he can’t call me and can’t text me. And isn’t supposed to be within a certain feet of me. He can only email me.

If he needs to contact the kids, they have their own separate phones, so he is able to communicate with them. But if he has any specific questions for me, or we’re making plans, it all has to go through email. I mean it’s almost impossible to know how to leave a toxic relationship with kids.

I Hate That He Won’t Leave Me Alone, But I Still Miss Him, What’s Wrong With Me?

Anne: And how have those been? Have they been gaslighting?

Lee: This is something interesting. Most people think if you go through email, it takes away all the manipulative communication. But it actually doesn’t. You have to still be very aware and very careful.

Lee: In the beginning, they were very emotionally filled. Both of us trying to express our hurt and our pain.

Anne: I don’t think he was really trying to express his hurt and his pain. As much as he was manipulating your emotions.

Lee: Oh, of course, yes. And in me, I was trying to express hurt and pain and it just didn’t work. Now I try to answer everything with what you taught. They’ve been incredibly helpful, especially when dealing with my narcissistic ex who refuses to leave me alone.

That’s it. No more than that. I have been doing that for a while now. There’ve been two times recently where I have gone out of my way to email him. And to address things that are not appropriate to address anymore. After that, I knew I made a mistake and then I got back on course.

I do not need to go into these pages of explanations or reasonings or even comforting him. I just need to respond very simply. Another thing you taught that I love is the broken record.

The Broken Record Technique: A Strategy For When Your Narcissist Ex Won’t Leave You Alone

Lee: One of the things is right now he’s on supervised visitation and he keeps asking me to pick up the kids. I have one line that I say to that, I’m sorry, you can’t do that right now. Then he’ll say something like, well, it would just be easier and nobody else has time to pick them up today. And when my narcissist ex won’t leave, I just say, I’m sorry, but you can’t do that right now. He might come back with something else. I just keep repeating it until finally he’s exhausted and doesn’t even ask.

And it’s just that you pick a line, you stick with that line. And every single time they come at you, you use the same line over and over again. Until finally they run out of questions. They run out of things to say, and they’re exhausted.

Anne: Yeah. The Living Free Workshop clearly explains why and how to use them with real life examples from real messages. From women like you who have applied it in situations with their narcissist ex. Anything you see now that “shows” he can communicate as a good person is grooming and manipulation. This and a lot of other strategies can apply when your narcissist ex won’t leave you alone.

Lee: There still is a big part of me that hopes that he is a good person. But like what you’re saying, there is trickery to it. Yeah, I always tell people. I can’t really give him anything because he is a give an inch take a mile kind of a guy.

Is It Okay to Block My Narcissistic Ex if He Won’t Leave Me Alone?

Anne: How has it felt to be free of his phone calls?

Lee: So good, I don’t have that pit in my stomach anymore when I see his name. My phone isn’t something to fear anymore. I’m not sitting there wondering if he’s sent me a text message on my phone. Now I can go to my phone and it’s not a place of worry. The other thing is so much comfort in knowing the things that I say and the things that he says. Also being able to go back and know that my reality and what I know is true.

I have that evidence now, and that is such a gift for me because I really do struggle with that still. Even outside of our marriage, I really do struggle with confidence in myself and trusting myself still. Because of 15 years of somebody questioning my truth or making me question my truth.

Lee: Now. Again, it’s that rebuild. I’m rebuilding that trust in myself and knowing that what I’m saying is truth because I have proof.

When He Won’t Stop Messaging Me Is There Some Type of Template I Can Use To Get Him To Stop?

Anne: So, if you’re interested in using the strategies in the Living Free Workshop to eliminate that fear and worry from having to communicate. And have the proof that Lee is talking about. These concepts will work for women in any situation, even if you’re still married.

We describe it when a protective order is in place, but you don’t need a protective order to implement them. You don’t have to be separated. Maybe you’re co-parenting, you can just know the concepts. and then use them in whatever way works for you. Having strategy makes a big difference when you’re trying to heal from emotional abuse.

When Your Narcissist Ex Won’t Leave You Alone, Enroll In The Living Free Workshop

Anne: If your narcissist ex won’t leave you alone, The Living Free Workshop uses an amazing workbook. If you want to you can dig really deep level and process things. Some women don’t even use the workbook the first time through, or they never use it. They just run through all the videos super fast and they don’t even answer the questions below the videos.

There’s no right or wrong way to do it.

Lindsay, a member of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community shares her experience doing an in-home separation, Lindsey offers valuable insight to empower listeners. If you need support, learn about Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions.

Why Choose In-Home Separation?

Sometimes women want to separate themselves from their abusive husband’s behaviors, but for one reason or another can’t physically move to another space.

In-home separations offer temporary safety (if your husband respects the separation agreement), while not causing financial strain on the family.

Further, in-home separations can preserve the current family dynamic if children are struggling to adapt to a more intense separation.

An in-home separation is rarely a situation that a couple can/wants to maintain long-term. Eventually, the abusive husband will choose to change and become non-abusive and honest, or will simply continue on the destructive path of betrayal and abuse. When your in-home separation isn’t providing you with the safety that you deserve, it may be time to ask your husband to move out, for you to move out, and/or consider filing for divorce.

It’s important for victims to understand that abusive men hitting benchmarks (going to therapy, attending support groups, etc.) does NOT mean that they are changing. As women become empowered, they are better able to understand what real change looks like.

Transcript: Can In-Home Separation Help Me?

Anne: I have my friend with me today, Lindsey, not her real name. She’s actually here in my basement where I record. I was talking to a woman at a conference and she said, I wasn’t meant to live one day at a time. And I thought that’s so true. Like I want to be able to plan. I want to be able to have peace. I want to be able to have emotional safety. There are obviously painful things that happen. No matter how hard we try, we can’t avoid them.

The Concept of Betrayal Trauma

Lindsay: Because whether it’s betrayal trauma or whether it’s a child dying, whatever your trial is, that is way too hard. It’s not fair.

Anne: Yeah. What about your situation left you feeling hopeless

Lindsay: When I discovered that there’s this thing called betrayal trauma. On top of that, not just betrayal trauma, but also there is secondary trauma and it’s real. You can have secondary trauma from ecclesiastical leaders, from therapists, therapists out there, resources out there that claim we help with betrayal trauma and yet they don’t.

Lindsay: It’s real and yet I have nowhere to turn because I don’t know who is safe.

Anne: That’s why I created Betrayal Trauma Recovery.

Trusting Your Gut & Finding Safety

Anne: Since then, have you developed a system where you can feel like, when you can’t trust your husband. This is how I would know if someone’s safe or not?

Lindsay: Mainly trusting my gut. I mean, learning to trust myself and to trust God. When I feel safe, I feel peace. And if there’s something that isn’t safe or that feels off, it’s almost like a little flag goes off in my brain that says, wait, this is either totally unsafe or I just need to learn more. Ask some more questions and figure out what’s going on. Because sometimes people say things in a way that is unsafe, but they didn’t intend to say it that way.

Anne: Like me! I did all the time. In fact, right when Lindsay got here, she was like, look at this new pamphlet! And I was like, ah! They took the word abuse off! And I went on a, what, how long was it? Maybe four minute rant about how mad I was that they removed the word abuse. And then I was like, I gotta calm down. I said a prayer, and I’m feeling fine now. And do you feel safe now?

Lindsay: Absolutely.

Anne: But I bet while I was on the rant, you were like, Oh, this can’t be good. Right? You were kind of like, Oh, no, we can’t record with her like this. And I was recognizing it.

Triggers & Emotional Reactions

Anne: It’s funny, it’s funny when I get triggered. I don’t know if you think it’s funny when you get triggered. When I get triggered, I think it’s funny because I can see it. I’m like oh, I know I’m doing this and I have to make that mental shift to say what would be the most helpful thing to do right now? So I apologize that I went on my rant.

Lindsay: It’s been helpful for me to reevaluate my perspective on life. It’s really a hard process to do, that is to say, I am questioning everything. Thinking about what I understand about my world, my higher power, relationships with my family and with my friends. Yet that process of questioning has been, in a lot of ways, very healing for me. I can feel the growth that I’ve had over the last two years.

Anne: Yeah, that’s what I experienced too. And I loved that. Looking back, I didn’t so much like it when I was going through it.

Lindsay: Absolutely not. It’s so hard.

Anne: It was miserable.

Growth Through Hardship

Anne: But looking back, I’m like, wow, I have changed and I have grown so much, and I’m still growing.

Lindsay: Absolutely.

Anne: It’s almost like the growth happens in this other place, and then you look back. You’re like, whoa, I changed. How did that happen?

Lindsay: It happens in a way that I didn’t expect. I don’t see it coming and and then it happens and it’s this beautiful amazing thing. Yeah, it’s pretty cool. One thing that I love about this process is you talk about sweeping my side of the street. It’s totally not about that because that can be a really dangerous metaphor to use. If you take that out and you just say this isn’t about my side of the street it’s taking the situation that is already happening.

About awful, terrible, ugly, hard, painful and saying, I can either sit here and live in the unmanageable. Live in it, and that’s okay to do, or I can take it and give it purpose. I can take my suffering and give it something meaningful.

Pain With Purpose

Lindsay: Pain with purpose is much more tolerable than pain that’s totally meaningless. Viktor Frankl’s book, Man’s Search for Meaning, it’s this idea that if I don’t have any reason, this pain is just happening, and it’s just going to keep happening, and there’s no reason for it, and I can’t do anything about it. I mean, I’ll go crazy. I will. And I may still go crazy.

Anne: You’re not crazy yet.

Lindsay: But to have purpose to it, and for me to say, no this is not my fault. It’s not fair and I can’t control it, but with God, I can make something beautiful out of it.

Anne: For me, it was definitely Betrayal Trauma Recovery.

Lindsay: Absolutely.

Anne: Because everything that I have now, my children, my house, BTR that I founded is because of what I went through.

https://youtu.be/ZcCaYcaS5eA

I would not have anything else. It’s everything that I love and care about and hold dear to my heart now. I’m super grateful that I went through it because there’s no way I could do what I do without it. People who haven’t been through it have a hard time wrapping their head around the realities of what happens. I also think it’s super cool how for all of us who have been through this, to be able to understand each other and empathize with each other, but also disagree.

Lindsay: Absolutely.

Anne: And have different experiences. That certain things are helpful for some people that aren’t helpful for others. And leave a space open for that.

Anne: Knowing that emotional health looks pretty much the same. Honesty, accountability, kindness, you know, all that stuff looks the same, but we can get to it from many different ways.

In-Home Separation Experience

Anne: So on the topic of in-home separation, which some women may use to establish safety. Lindsay has done both an in-home separation and now is separated out of her home. Can you tell us why you felt unsafe in your own home?

Lindsay: So when he went through two months of acting out behavior without disclosing it to me, that’s when I felt unsafe and knew I needed to change something.

Anne: Did you feel unsafe before you found out he was lying to you, or was there something in your gut that you knew was wrong and you just didn’t have quote unquote evidence until you found out?

Lindsay: I definitely felt uneasy, that’s for sure, and I knew that he wasn’t communicating with me, but until I really had the direct evidence, I didn’t want to move forward yet. And it was only a matter of months.

Anne: So once you determined that you felt unsafe and that your husband’s behaviors were unsafe, mainly that he had been lying to you, why did you choose an in-home separation for your boundary at that time?

Lindsay: At that time, I knew I felt unsafe and I knew that something needed to change. It was actually Almost a month between me knowing that there was dishonesty happening and me actually coming to the conclusion that an in-home separation was the boundary that I wanted to move forward with, mostly because I just didn’t know what to do.

How Can An In-Home Separation Help In Situations Of Abuse

Lindsay: I was, you know, Totally at a loss, but I had some really amazing experiences with meditation that helped me come to the conclusion that I really needed to have safety within my home, and I needed to have a place in my home that could be my safe place. For me, the easiest way that I could envision that happening would be to have an in-home separation where I could have my bedroom be that safe place.

Anne: I’m going to talk about safety for a minute.

A lot of women listening might think, okay, he was lying to you and so you felt unsafe. Were there any other evidences that you felt unsafe. Which there doesn’t need to be, but I want to talk about this because a lot of women think, well, he’s not yelling at me. He’s not punching walls. He’s not screaming in my face.

So, yeah, I’m safe. When emotionally they might not be safe because they’re trusting someone or they’re interacting with someone who’s lying to their face. Talk about how you came to realize that you deserved more than just, well, he’s not yelling at me.

In-Home Separation Is A Boundary

Lindsay: My husband is in a lot of respects, a good husband and a good father to my children. You know, he’s respectful. He helps around the house, does all the right things on the surface. He doesn’t put me down. Obviously, the lying is abuse in and of itself. But for me, it was just these little red flags. Each one of those in and of itself isn’t totally wrong. But when you look at the big picture and you look at red flags like not communicating. He’s not telling me what he’s thinking.

Anne: So at the time when you’re telling your family, I don’t feel safe. I’m going to have an in-home separation. Were they like, why don’t you feel safe? I’m confused. What is he doing?

Lindsay: Yeah, absolutely. And honestly, even to this day, it’s something that I’m not sure I have words to capture exactly what it means. Which is hard because in a certain sense, you want to feel justified when you’re talking to your family or when you’re talking to your friends about the actions that you’re taking. And so that’s been a struggle.

It’s kind of a back and forth and just a continuing conversation with my parents, with my siblings, with other people who are aware of what’s going on. Just trying to share with them how I’m feeling. When I do come across podcasts or if I come across a quote that I feel captures what I’m feeling, I’m more inclined to share that with them to help communicate, but it’s hard.

In-Home Separation Allows Time For Observation

Anne: Do you feel like you’re better at communicating how you feel now than when you first started the in-home separation?

Lindsay: Yes and no. In some ways, obviously, I’ve definitely grown and read more, listened to more. But in other ways, no. It’s still something that’s hard to describe to somebody who hasn’t experienced it themselves. For me, one of my personal boundaries for myself has been to say, it’s okay for me to not be able to describe what I’m feeling to somebody. That’s okay. It doesn’t mean that my feelings are unjustified.

Anne: Both that and then also, it’s okay that I can’t explain all my reasons why I feel unsafe. But my decision to set a boundary I don’t have to justify it to other people. It’s okay. It’s just a tough position to be in.

Lindsay: Yeah

Anne: So you were doing an in-home separation for how long?

Lindsay: About a year.

Anne: Okay. And during that time, all you could see is he doesn’t seem to be interested in meetings or therapy, and that was your indicator that you were probably unsafe? Because you’ve got somebody with a history of lying to you and someone with a history of infidelity.

Lindsay: Exactly.

Indicators Of Abusive Behavior

Anne: Okay. I’m thinking right now that those of us who can clearly see through their behavior, right, they’re very irritable, are kind of lucky, maybe? I mean, not, but yes. Behavior can be more extreme. But the weird thing is, it doesn’t mean you’re in any less danger from being lied to.

Anne: And the spectrum of these abusive behaviors is so vast. It can look so different. Okay. So, you’re doing an in-home separation for about a year. You’re living upstairs and he’s living in the basement. I am personal friends with you, in the same area. So I know you’ve been making an effort to have friends come over in the evening when you’re lonely, and you’ve just been learning new skills on how to navigate a life where you’ve been separated in your home.

Then you find out he’s been lying again, he’s been using exploitative material again. We’re already doing an in-home separation, so now what do I do? Talk about how you felt in the process that you went through to determine what steps to take next.

Red Flags During In-Home Separation

Lindsay: I actually need to back up a little bit, because that process started a little bit before I knew that he was lying to me. I had some other pretty bad experiences. Big indicators that something was really wrong.

Anne: Can you tell us what those were?

Lindsay: I had a conversation with him shortly after one of his therapy appointments. He was on his way out the door, so it was not a good time to be talking, but I had just asked him about how his therapy went.

He was sharing with me about being in a slump and had shared that with the therapist. The therapist was working with him on determining his motivation for recovery, trying to do pros and cons of working recovery. Then he shared a question that the therapist had asked him, how long do you think this is sustainable to stay in this slump? He told me that his answer to the therapist had been something like, Well that depends on my wife.

Anne: That depends on Lindsay.

Lindsay: Yeah. And I was like, oh, that’s not okay with me. I don’t know if I could put words at the time to why that wasn’t okay with me, but that did not feel right.

I want his recovery to be his own. for him to be motivated to do it for his own well being. Not to work recovery as long as I’m not making his life unbearable or harder.

Anne: Yeah, so it’s like well if she doesn’t bug me anymore then now then maybe forever. It just depends on Lindsay.

Considering Moving From In-Home Separation to Out-Of-Home Separation

Lindsay: It came across really as a big, big red flag for me. At that point, that was actually the first time that I had ever considered the reality or the possible reality of an out of home separation. And that scared me. It terrified me. So the thought had been planted a couple weeks before.

Anne: Before we go on, can you put in words why, if all other behaviors seem healthy, why lying and exploitative materials use to you is unacceptable?

Lindsay: Yeah, absolutely. The lying. It just is a really not okay foundation for any relationship, because if he’s lying about this, who knows what else he could be lying about. Yes, on the surface, the things that I see and experience seem to be okay, but who knows?

Anne: It would be interesting to see if someone else were in your situation.

Lindsay: Right? It would be so different.

Anne: If she was like, well, no, these things are really bad. These other things that maybe for whatever reason, you’re not recognizing or whatever. That would be interesting to know.

Lindsay: Yeah. Oh, I’m sure it would be very different.

Anne: Or if she was like, I agree. Who knows?

Pornography Is Not OK

Anne: Gail Dines was on the podcast. If you have not heard that episode, please listen to it. She’s amazing. She was saying, Women, even if nothing else is going on, you cannot accept this in a relationship, period. It is an abusive act and is not okay. This is what is exploitative about the whole industry. I’m proud of you for saying, even though I don’t exactly know how these behaviors are affecting me, I know that it is and I will not accept it. That is a really brave thing to do.

Lindsay: For me personally, exploitative material is something that goes against my values, my spiritual belief system. That has been very clear from the start. This is not okay. But I didn’t know that anything could be done about it. I was told by clergy what felt to me like contradictory statements. Like, recovery is possible, sobriety is possible, and yet addiction is going to be a lifelong thing. I didn’t get how those two things that felt to me like opposites could both be true.

Anne: It’s possible for him to change, but if he doesn’t, it’s actually possible for you, the victim, to find peace and happiness. It takes a long time to figure out what that looks like and how that’s going to go. They also get all caught up in the causes of sexual addiction.

Exploring Boundaries & In-Home Separation

Anne: Because these are unacceptable to you, then you start this process of determining what is my next step for safety. I’ve already done an in-home separation, and it seemed to work. It kept me safe for a little while, but it didn’t motivate him to change, which wasn’t your point. Your point was just to keep yourself safe.

Now you’re realizing, I’m not any safer. How do you decide that you need to increase your boundaries yet again? Because you’re still unsafe.

Lindsay: Yeah, that was a long thought process for me, because realistically, the boundary of an in-home separation has a wide range of levels of connection, even within that. I thought about it, and I realized I had pretty much explored that range at least as far as I knew how. We had a period of time fairly early on in the in-home separation where things were awful he was acting out every week and telling me about it.

Anne: When you say acting out you mean using exploitative material?

Lindsay: Yeah, so that was happening on a weekly basis. It felt to me like it was endless. That was really hard for me.

Low Contact During Separation

Lindsay: At that point in time, our in-home separation was very low contact. Like, I would very much schedule the times when I would be seeing him. It would be family dinner with the kids. Outside of that and maybe a few other things, I was pretty much saying, okay, text me if you’re going to walk through the upstairs. So I know that you’re walking through the upstairs.

Things like that where I would very much know where he was and where I was and that those were separate places. Versus when things were a lot better. We did spend time together, he still slept in the basement and I still slept upstairs. I still maintained my bedroom as my safe space. So he wasn’t going in my room. If I was in the room at all, ever. I had felt like I had explored that range.

Out of Options & Making Decisions

Lindsay: I felt like I was out of options. That’s a hard place to be because I don’t like making decisions from a place where I feel like there’s no other options. That was a place where I had to sit for a while to think about, okay, have I really explored all my options?

Anne: I think that’s really interesting because people don’t understand that women married to emotionally abusive men want the relationship to work. That they try every single option. Every single one. And it’s only when they are out of options that they think, alright, I have to do this because I’m out of options. Before, when you did the in-home separation, that seemed like the only option at the time, right? Or the best option.

Lindsay: It did seem like the best option. I did feel like I had a lot more options when I was making that decision.

Anne: What options were you considering at that time? You were considering an out of home separation, an in-home separation?

Lindsay: Honestly, I didn’t even consider an out of home at that time.

In-Home vs. Out-Of-Home Separation

Anne: So it was just options within an in-home separation?

Lindsay: Or just within a relationship where I could say, okay, I need to not go on dates or I need to have variations in the space? The amount of space that I have emotionally and physically.

Anne: Then when his abusive behaviors continue now you’re thinking, I’ve exhausted all those in-home separation options and now my only option is an out of home separation. Does this out of home separation include variations?

Lindsay: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Because I know that there is a huge range of options in terms of does he still spend time at the house? Does he spend time with the kids? Is it really just a different place to sleep? Or is it like we’re living in different states? There’s a lot of options within that.

Lindsay: It felt like I was at one level and I was jumping up to like five levels higher in terms of, you know, my boundaries, yeah. And that’s a big jump to make.

Anne: I was talking with you while you were trying to make this decision. You would text me and call me and be like, am I thinking through this straight? Are these boundaries appropriate? What do I want to do? You finally decide, yes. I am going to ask him to move out.

Family’s Confusion & Judgment

Anne: Your family, again, was confused.

Lindsay: Absolutely.

Anne: They were like, why are you asking a perfectly capable, non violent man who holds down a job, who is active in our church, who is seemingly a good dad to move out? This is confusing to us. At that time, did they understand it? Any more or were they still baffled?

Lindsay: I don’t know if I can make a good judgment on that, honestly, because I was in such trauma myself. My perspective on what they were thinking and feeling is probably very skewed.

Anne: Eventually you move forward, regardless of what your perception of how other people felt. You’re currently separated with him out of the home.

Assessing Safety In Separation

Anne: How have you felt about your level of safety now? It’s so difficult to assess your safety in this situation because both scenarios feel unsafe. Having them stay in the home feels unsafe because they’re lying to you and using exploitative material and it just feels uncomfortable and it’s against your value system.

Then secondly, having your children’s dad move out, financial ramifications that this might cause, emotional ramifications, the fact that this could result in divorce. You’re not quite ready to consider if you should prepare for divorce. Which you don’t want, feels unsafe too. So it’s like, which “unsafe scenario” do I choose and why? The decision is very complex. It’s not easy at all. But since you asked him to move out, have you felt, generally speaking, more emotionally safe?

Lindsay: I would say I’ve felt more at peace. I don’t know if I would say more safe because realistically, I don’t know. I felt a lot of unease around asking for the out of home separation simply for the financial aspect of it. That was another reason why I hesitated for a long time. The conclusion that I came to, and it worked for us, this doesn’t work for everyone. I asked that he cover the cost with extra work. He come up with a cost so that it doesn’t dip into our normal finances.

That gave me a lot of peace going into it saying this is possibly temporary. It could be temporary. And if it is temporary and he does end up moving back in, we end up reconciling and our relationship moves forward in a healthy way. It’s not going to impact us negatively in terms of our financial future.

Husband’s Dishonesty & Expectations

Lindsay: My husband in particular, one of the roots of his dishonesty is he wants to fulfill people’s expectations of him. I made a very conscious decision. I’m not going to outline a plan for him. I’m not going to outline what I need to see. In order for this to be better.

Anne: Yeah, that’s exactly what I teach in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. That women don’t make a list of all the things they want to see, and I explain exactly why you don’t want to do that. The type of list that’s not going to help you get to safety would be something like, I need you to go to group every week, I need you to go to therapy every week, I need you to do this, I need you to do that. They can fake all of that. They can check off all those boxes, but it doesn’t mean anything.

It’s a good idea to just say, I don’t know. I’ll keep praying. keep pondering, keep observing and I’ll see how it feels. Yeah. as your friend, I feel like his behavior right now shows that he’s more concerned about his own comfort, than your safety. The stages of deliverance from abuse begin when you see the truth.

Lindsay: Well, absolutely. That’s why we’re in this place right now. That’s the heart of it.

Anne: Yeah. I’m mad. I’m mad because I’m your friend and I care about you.

The Long Process Of Healing

Anne: And this process to determine whether or not someone is going to actually learn and apply and practice and live healthy behaviors takes a long time.

Lindsay: It took me a while to come to terms with the fact. That simply because I had started to do my own healing didn’t mean that he has, that he’s ready, and he’s committed.

Anne: I think that’s why safety first is the best way to go. If you’re thinking, I need to establish safety for myself and for my home. And I don’t exactly know how to go about that, but safety is the top priority. I’m going to continue to set boundaries until I feel safe, whatever that looks like, then you’re never going to go wrong.

Lindsay: It’s my goal is to keep moving in that direction.

Conflict & Prioritizing Safety In Boundaries

Lindsay: One thing that I feel. maybe some caution around the word safety is the idea that any relationship, whether it’s marriage or just with a friend or a family member, you can’t expect there to be no conflict. You can’t expect there to be no risks. So I feel some caution around the word safety simply because I don’t want to be so focused on the goal of safety that I don’t open myself up to deep, meaningful loving relationships.

Anne: That’s interesting, because I don’t feel that way at all. I feel very safe with my close friends and family, but we’re getting in fights all the time. But it’s a safe space. I’m not abused. I’m not lied to, accused of things and not gaslit. Is there conflict? Totally, I’m very confrontational. As are many of the people around me.

Lindsay: That makes sense with your background and personality. For me, who I am naturally, I know this about myself, I’m naturally conflict averse. I’m careful about me pushing safety too far.

Anne: Or you confusing, I think might be the better word. Confusing safety and peace with a complete and total lack of conflict.

Lindsay: Maybe. Because safety can mean not being in pain, to some people.

Anne: For sure, but I wouldn’t say I’m in pain. I mean, I have conflicts that hurt my feelings or whatever, but it’s resolvable. With a safe person, you can resolve it. I guess what I’m saying is the pain can be resolved, not quickly, but like rather quickly. Like, if you get in a conflict, you can resolve it. Within a week, which is great. These other conflicts with your spouse or ex spouse are unresolvable.

Pain Of Growth in Relationships

Lindsay: I guess what I’m saying is, it’s not just like pain from getting feelings hurt, but I want to be open to the pain of growth. The growth in a relationship. That may come from conflict that lasts for a while.

Anne: Right, but that doesn’t mean you’re unsafe.

Lindsay: No. But to some people, and in some situations, the idea of being in pain, period, may feel unsafe. So, for example, in my relationship with my parents, I have a lot of growth to do there. I feel like that is the pain of growth, saying that, okay, I’m in pain. It’s okay for me to feel the pain of saying, I’m wrong sometimes.

Anne: Yeah, totally. But that again, safety is about, is this person lying to you? Are they trying to manipulate you? Are they hurting you on purpose to try and take the attention away from their unhealthy behaviors? So if the person is. genuine, they really genuinely care for you.

They’re not trying to manipulate you. Like my mom for example. I’ll just bring her up. She really wants me to do certain things and she tries to convince me in a lot of different ways. Could I call it manipulation? Maybe, but not really because she’s very direct about it. I don’t like those shoes you’re wearing. I don’t want you to wear them. Let me tell you the 17 reasons why they’re ugly. Then she’ll tell me that over and over and over. Right. And I’m like, I like those shoes.

Is Conflict Abusive?

Anne: She’s doing that because she genuinely loves and cares about me, which is so different than coming from a place of, I’m trying to hide things from you. Also I’m trying to make sure that you don’t confront me about my abusive behaviors. I think safety with people, even if there’s conflict, is totally achievable. So we can agree, we can maybe agree to disagree.

Lindsay: Absolutely. I’m definitely okay with that.

Anne: I’m like, wait a minute. No, you can get to safety. You really can.

Lindsay: I do believe that. I just know that from my perspective where safety has been a very unclear thing to me and to people who are around me, it can be misinterpreted very easily.

Anne: Maybe I need to go back and fix all my podcast episodes. Because I’m always talking about safety and people are like, well, that means that we never get in an argument or that means this. I’m like, no, it doesn’t. It’s never meant that. But I’m wondering now, are people interpreting this differently than, than how I intend it? Which they do all the time.

Does Safety Mean No Conflict

Anne: But that’s really interesting. There’s no way we can ever have a life free of fear or conflict. And actually we don’t want that. Right? Which would mean someone is lying or someone isn’t.

Lindsay: But I used to think that that’s what I would want. I used to think that if I was in conflict in a relationship that things were not okay. That relationship is not okay.

Anne: I think it depends on what you’re having a conflict about. You’re having a conflict about your shoes. Right. That relationship is fine. If you’re having a conflict about whether or not someone is stabbing people, that is not okay. It’s not going to be okay over here. What are your next steps? Are you feeling like you want to just settle into this?

Lindsay: No, I don’t. I don’t want to settle into this because this is not my ideal. So for me, on the relationship front, it’s a waiting game. Wait and see what happens. Right. See what he does, see how he acts. I don’t think I mentioned this earlier, so I’ll mention it now.

Trusting Higher Power For Guidance

Lindsay: The key to that, for me, is developing and keeping my relationship with my higher power, such that I feel like I can trust my higher power to let me know if something is off. Because realistically, I don’t know if he’s lying to me. I don’t know if he’s acting out. There’s a lot that I don’t know. However; I have had multiple key moments in my relationship with my husband where I know that my higher power has made me aware of things that I did not know.

Anne: Do you feel like your relationship with God, has improved over time?

Lindsay: I still struggle with connecting with my higher power on a regular basis. I still struggle with having the motivation to want to do the things that I know I need to do to keep that connection strong.

Boundaries & Out-Of-Home Separation

Anne: Boundaries are hard, especially having your husband move out is a very difficult boundary. If you could go back in time and talk to your younger self, to tell her some things about boundaries that you have learned. What would you tell her?

Lindsay: That it’s okay not to know what you’re doing. Because realistically, I don’t know that I would have learned the things that I needed to learn in order to set these boundaries any sooner than I did. Even if I told myself anything, any advice I could have given myself. And that’s okay. It’s okay to make mistakes. It’s okay to not have it down right now. It is something that’s gonna take time.

Anne: I agree. I am now such an expert at boundaries, but I didn’t set a boundary at all before my ex was arrested. That was God telling me, let me help you out. You clearly are having problems, and just let me do this for you. I feel like that’s what happened. Then I was like, thank you! I can breathe now, and then I could figure out how to set boundaries.

I’m just so grateful. It’s basically kept the boundary that God gave to me. Thank goodness. I don’t think I ever could have done it otherwise. Going back in time, I’d be like, you’re really, really bad at boundaries. That’s what I would have told myself.

Advice for Women Considering An In-Home Separation

Anne: For women right now who are considering a separation, either an in-home separation, or an out-of-home separation. Do you have any words of wisdom you could share with them?

Lindsay: I just know what I did. Reach out to somebody who may be a little bit ahead of you on the journey, and then the people that are right there in the trenches with you. It helped to talk it out. It helped me clarify what my thoughts were and my feelings were.

Also being open to guidance from my higher power. I can’t honestly say It’s something that I knelt down and prayed about because that’s just not the place I’m at right now, but connecting in other ways.

Anne: Yeah, this is a tough journey. It’s intense. It’s unpredictable. I think peace is a good goal to work toward. I do think it’s possible and boundaries make that possible.

Final Thoughts & Gratitude

Anne: I teach women how to create and hold healthy boundaries in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. A great big thank you to my friend, Lindsay. I’m so thankful for her. She’s a great example to me of someone who sets boundaries and is doing the best she can to be as healthy as possible.

I genuinely admire her and I’m grateful for her friendship.

Divorcing a narcissist is a nightmare. Anne Blythe, M.Ed. continues her heartfelt conversation with June from the BTR Community one year after she shared the first part of her story. Here the next chapter of her journey divorcing a narcissist.

If you need support while experiencing narcissistic abuse, learn about BTR Group Sessions here.

This episode follows June’s Story:
Part 1: He Blamed Me for the Emotional Abuse – June Checks in One Year Later
Part 2: Divorcing A Narcissist – June’s Story Part 2 (THIS EPISODE)

Transcript: Divorcing A Narcissist June’s One-Year Follow-Up: Divorcing A Narcissist

Anne: I checked in with June one year later to see how she was doing. This interview happened one year after the episode you heard last week, but still a long time ago. You’ll hear my today voice popping in from time to time talking about The Living Free Workshop that I developed years after this time. I actually use these strategies and tools to completely deliver me and my kids from abuse without going to court.

If you didn’t hear the beginning of June’s story last week, listen to that first. It’s called He Blamed Me for the Emotional Abuse June story part one. Then come back and listen to this interview, which we did one year later. Welcome June. It’s been a year since we spoke. How are things going for you one year later?

June: We left off last time going through the court process of the custody issues and the divorce proceedings. We have since concluded at least custody for now because my husband appealed the custody from the family court and he appealed it to the circuit court, which in my state is the next higher court. It took us six to nine months to get into the circuit court to have that case heard.

That was an eye opening experience for me. I feel like we’ve had all of these issues, divorcing a narcissist is horrible. All of this bad behavior, all of this conflict between us and it really hasn’t been between us. It’s been him finding the gray areas in the order and exploiting those in ways that might be small and minor, but when you add them all up, it takes its toll.

Experiences With Her Ex’s Divorce Demands

There shouldn’t be any changes, or at least any big changes. Get this part over with and we can move on. In the circuit court, it was just a different experience. The judge had a lot less patience. The judge labeled the conflict as marital fighting and just conflict between my husband and I rather than abuse. That is very, very problematic. I brought two witnesses.

The judge didn’t want to hear from them, so he didn’t hear from them at all, which was a problem. I can say I’m happy with the outcome. For the most part, the custody didn’t change too much. A lot more freedom, discretion and leeway are in the order. In The BTR Community, that translates to a lack of boundaries in our new order. I know that will be a problem.

It already has been a problem. That’s what I’m dealing with right now. Currently it is just an order for custody. I’m still the primary parent. I have the kids 75% of the time, which is great. I feel that my influence on the kids and having a safe and stable home environment for them and a connected parenting relationship with them is super important.

When they’re going through this, their dad does get a certain amount of days each month and it’s when he wants to see them. He can get a certain amount of days. That creates a bit of a problem.

Husband’s Narcissistic Behavior

Anne: We’re personal friends, so we talk a lot about this. One of the things that surprises me, and I’d like to know how you feel about it, is that so many of the things that your soon to be ex does are just not smart. He doesn’t seem smart at all. He seems narcissistic, clueless, and way more confident in his own abilities than he actually is.

At the same time, he can exploit all these little areas of the law and he actually is really smart at the same time. He is a doctor, he’s not a dummy. How do you reconcile this crazy, nonsensical, irrational behavior and all of the bad choices that he makes with this ability to exploit the law in a way that works for him? This is a huge part of divorcing a narcissist. He’s sort of like this evil genius kind of thing. How do you feel about that?

June: I definitely feel that is such an accurate representation of reality of what is going on. There are times that I feel his chaos and disorganization is really, really to his detriment. Obviously it is to the detriment of the kids. It affects them. It’s chaotic. He can’t show up for appointments on time, he can’t get the kids to where they need to be on time. He won’t return things that they need, important things.

For instance, when has the kids on vacation, the court order says that the kids call me on the middle day at a certain time. Up to this date, I have never received that phone call at a certain time.

Concerns Children’s Safety

He does not let me talk to them. Honestly, as a mother, as a person who he assaulted, as a person that is very well aware of the effects of trauma, abuse, narcissism and how those things all go together and create really the perfect storm. That could be disastrous.

I worry about my kids during those times, I worry that he’s snapped, they are not okay and they’re not safe. I almost feel like it’s happened so much at this point it’s purposeful. He must know that I worry and that’s why he does it, the control. He’s definitely spiraling.

I’ve had several people in the community come and tell me that they have seen problematic behavior from him. People tell me that they have heard things that have happened at his previous workplace. I’ve had two people tell me that they’ve heard that he assaulted a female in his previous workplace. He has since lost his job because he missed several days of work, missed shifts and didn’t show up on time.

There were several other people that complained of his treatment of patients, how he was medically treating them. Some of that is also really an indication of his unhealthiness

Anne: Because with a lot of abusive men, they pick and choose. They’re very together at their job at church, they look really good. At home is when they lose their temper, they don’t lose it anywhere else. It’s a display of control at home. You’re saying his dysfunction is starting to leak out into his public persona?

Narcissistic Dysfunction

June: Yes, the dysfunction definitely is. Now that is something different than the anger and abuse. I even feel like sometimes he uses the dysfunction as a ploy to get people to feel sorry for him. He’s this broken down dad that just wants his kids so much and he’s just floundering without them

Anne: He’s a single dad and it’s so hard for him because he is a victim.

https://youtube.com/shorts/tVUVAwZzedU

June: Yes, and I feel like that’s very much what’s going on now. On dating sites, for example, He’s on all the dating sites. He clearly says, I’m a single dad. Here’s a bunch of pictures of my kids, and by the way, I have my kids 50/50. Somehow that’s supposed to mean that he is a better dad or people can trust him more,

Anne: But that’s a lie. He doesn’t have them 50/50.

June: That is a lie. He does not have them 50/50.

Anne: Mine says the same thing. He’s got these pictures of him as a dad and he’s also got this Christian for life, I love Jesus stuff going on on his dating profiles. Okay, but he doesn’t obey the commandments, whatever. I think that’s really interesting because if he did start dating someone, they would soon see that he didn’t have them 50/50. He’s really not setting himself up for a good relationship.

June: Exactly right. I think that a lot of these guys see mechanisms that can give them instant trust. Yes, being a Christian is one thing that can give them instant trust. Being a single dad is one thing that can give them instant trust with whoever their next person will be.

Financial Revelations In Divorcing A Narcissist

Another thing that I found very interesting in court this past time is that we were going over support of course, because that’s all wrapped up in custody. He testified that his church, my church, has been paying for his mortgage and car payment and that is almost $2,000 a month. This person is a doctor. He makes $24,000 a month, well over $300,000 a year.

He said the church paid for his expenses because he is so broke. That he cannot even pay for these things. In preparation my lawyer subpoenaed all of his bank records, all of his pay stubs, everything like that, all of the financials. The intern went through it and categorized things by item. It turns out that he has spent thousands of dollars on liquor, hundreds of dollars on pornography.

Anne: When we say liquor, I just want the audience to know that June’s soon to be ex and June are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Alcohol is something they do not do. His clergy is paying his house payment while this man is going out and buying alcohol, which is really, really a big deal.

June: And he had contributed tens of thousands of dollars into his own retirement during this time that the church was paying for his expenses

Anne: Acting like, oh, I’m going through so much help me. Right?

Financial Status Of Narcissistic Husband

June: And my ex-wife took all of my money. Really anyone that has gone through the courts would know. It’s a straight calculation. After this, I became very, very disturbed. I know the process, a little bit of receiving church welfare. My dad was a bishop. He had to help people meet their urgent and emergent needs on occasion. I began to really think, I need to know the story of this.

I need to know how far this went. The bishop was the same bishop that was spiritually abusive to me. This bishop had very, very clearly taken aside. Financially he had even taken a side in this divorce where he chose to support my husband and not me. He is paying these expenses, thousands of dollars a month for these things.

He has really enabled him to continue legal abuse and also continue really unhealthy behaviors and to pay for those.

Anne: If he had been paying you the $2,000 a month, you could have purchased groceries. I mean it’s crazy. Sorry, just for our listeners, steam and fire is coming out of my ears right now.

June: Really if he had just paid his own mortgage and his own car payment, then maybe he would not have as much money to pay his lawyer. Then we could move on and get everything wrapped up and not be in constant legal battle

Anne: And not have to go to the next higher court up and all that business.

Seeking Support For Divorcing A Narcissist

June: Exactly. I became very alarmed, like I said, and as soon as court was over, I began my research. In my research, I reached out to the congregation that he currently attends. The leader of it, a bishop, by this point the previous bishop had been released from that position. A new bishop was put in

Anne: For listeners who are not familiar, all of the clergy in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are volunteers. Someone is asked or called to be the leader of the congregation for a period of usually around three to five years. Then a new volunteer is called and it just rotates around. You’re saying that the old bishop was released and a new volunteer bishop was called?

June: Exactly. I felt safe reaching out to this new bishop because he was not the same one that I spoke about on the earlier podcasts who was very spiritually abusive. To this new bishop and to the leader above him, which is a stake president, and to the area authority, the person above him just to get some answers.

I had emailed a couple times with no response and explained the situation in emails. I just wasn’t getting any response. And so I just kept kind of adding more people to these emails, trying to get some sort of answers on how long has this been going on? The thing that really concerned me is that I didn’t verity anything. Because we are married, I am still the property owner on things that the church paid.

Deciding To Meet With New Clergy

I’m still on the loan for the house. I’m still on the loan for the car that is still legally my property and nothing was verified with me. In that process I learned mine and my children’s records had been transferred back to that congregation.

Anne: When June says records, I am so sorry for people who are like, we don’t want to know the workings of your church. The it will help understand the context of why this is such a big deal. That’s why we’re explaining it. The congregations are set up in geographical areas, you do not choose what congregation you go to. It’s called a ward, each congregation has a boundary to it.

You can have your records transferred in or out depending on your situation. What she is saying is that she had her records transferred out with the impending divorce and that the records were back with that congregation where her soon to be ex is going. Where your records are is where you attend church, so you find out that your records are in his congregation.

June: Upon finding that out, I just set up a meeting with the bishop because I figure,

Anne: Oh, he’s my bishop, right? This is my congregation. Yeah, he’s my bishop now.

June: Yes. I set up a meeting, I went and talked to him. I brought up the misuse and misappropriation of fast offerings, which are tithes in a way. It’s like a collection plate in another church or another religion. I brought this up to the bishop.

Meeting With Clergy About Divorcing A Narcissist

I told him I have documentation of the discretionary spending that the church would not approve of. Why is a man that is making $300,000 a year receiving this assistance when I know for a fact that we have people living in dire poverty in the congregation. We met for about an hour. The bishop listened to me.

He stated that he doesn’t know when this started, but that he did make a couple of payments for my husband. He did not verify any of this because he felt like there was a need and he just took him at face value. I also talked to him about the history and the abuse, the betrayal, the trauma, the assault, all of those things. And he was very gracious to listen and we had a very, very good discussion.

I felt very, very hopeful after meeting with him. We talked about how to deal with some of these behaviors of my husband and if this bishop had any interest in doing that because it was never dealt with.

Anne: You mean like a church court or holding boundaries or some things like that?

June: Yes, but now that I’m in the ward and my children’s records are in the ward, how to navigate that situation,

Anne: Especially if you have a protective order.

June: I did., yes. He said he really didn’t know anything about the situation or anything like that. He said that he was more interested in current things that were happening, current abuse. So I described some situations and post-separation abuse, post-divorce abuse is a lot harder to really identify. It can just look like someone just being a jerk to the other parent. Describing what it’s like while divorcing a narcissist is difficult.

Protective Orders & Church Policies While Divorcing A Narcissist

I did describe situations of my husband swearing at me at drop off in exchange, purposely keeping the kids from talking to me. Situations that I would say are very much in this gray area that one or two things by themselves don’t really do anything. I said, I’ve been living this for over two years and I can tell you it’s just repeated abuse. It’s just in a different form. It was very interesting to hear his take on that.

I asked him what kind of training he received for dealing with abuse and trauma. He said that he has the spirit and that’s the training.

Anne: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Because narcissists seem like they’re telling the truth and so it unquote feels right. Yes.

June: I tried to gently push back on that a little, and I just said, okay, but you realize that when you gave him this money, you would’ve had that same discernment, the spirit and it didn’t work right. You understand that, and I could see the wheels were turning. I could see that he was thinking about that. I also took in the policy on abuse.

The church has come out with a policy, I think it was in March of 2018, and it’s very, very clear. There’s a very clear directive that abuse is not to be tolerated. That people who come reporting abuse in any form should be believed and that false accusations are just not the norm. In fact, they are very, very rare. And so I really came with that policy in hand

Conversations About Repentance & Church’s Role

Anne: Before you go on, the false accusations are usually from the abuser, right? The abuser is usually saying, I was abused.

June: I could refer to it at different points in our conversation. I said, now that I’m reporting this, is it your intention to look into this and to handle it in a way that is conducive with the church’s own policy? Again, I felt like he probably had good intentions, but he said, well, yes, I’ll bring him in here and I’ll talk to him. Every story has two sides.

Anne: The abuser is never going to be like, oh yeah, I was the abuser. And then he is going to say, okay, then let’s go forward with the policy. If the abuser goes in and says, no, that’s not what happened. She’s the abuser. Then they’re just left confused and they’re like, well, I don’t know what to do and I don’t know what this policy means now,

June: And this is where I feel like the behaviors of my husband and the acting really come into play.

Anne: You mean his hypocritical slash, I’m the victim slash, I’m a good guy stuff.

June: Yes. I described this actually for the bishop, I said, I was married to this person for over a decade. This always goes the same way. I said, he will come in here and he will say, I’m so sorry, I just feel so horrible and I’m just damaged. I said, then he will start crying, and my husband is a very big guy. To see a grown man cry is shocking. Because it is so shocking, we think, oh my gosh, this is so shocking.

Telling Clergy About Husband’s Narcissism

He must be in complete and utter turmoil. Then because we’re distracted in our thinking and not centering on the subject matter of what we wanted to talk to him about, it kind of gets swept under the rug, and that’s that. I said, I’ve seen him do this so many times

Anne: He also starts blaming you and telling him how abusive you were and all the bad things you did, but if you haven’t listened, she ended up with a night in jail. So I’m sure then he pulls that out. She went to jail. Because he has covert narcissist traits.

June (00:21:35): That I kidnapped the kids. Remember the arrest has now been expunged, and so legally I do not have to say that I have been arrested anymore, but usually to build my credibility, I’m very upfront with that. There’s not a lot of shame there for me at all anymore. So I really did tell the bishop that I was very concerned because not only does he come in here and act like this, but he’s also looking like it.

He looks disheveled and remember people are telling me he doesn’t look so good. I said, everything that you’re seeing and that you’re hearing will be telling you that, oh yeah, maybe he does have a plausible story. Maybe this is the truth. That is what I think is so harmful about this situation in particular, is that he is using his own unhealthiness as a means to be able to prove his story.

Advising Clergy To Ask Victim About Repentance

That he is so despondent and just in despair at what has happened when that is not the truth. I was very clear also, I told the bishop, I will be the first person to know of true repentance by my husband. I will be the first person to see it, I will be able to see and clearly be able to identify change behavior.

Anne: If you want to know if someone’s repented, ask the victim.

June: Yes. I got into a really important discussion with him about that, and I’m so glad that I did because I asked him, how do you assess for repentance? How do you assess change in behavior? Do you ask the victim? Do you ask the person that it was directed to? He said, well, yeah, of course we would.

Anne: But you’re like, but they never have have with me.

June: Exactly.

Anne: From all the women in our community. I can’t remember one of them being asked when they’re still married and they’re both in the same congregation. If they’re in a separate congregation, they don’t call the victim.

June: Exactly. I had a really important discussion with him about that. I also said that at one point in the marriage with a previous bishop, this was a completely different bishop that my husband had admitted to infidelity and that we had gone to the bishop. We were trying to work through it. This was sort of at the codependent phase of my process

Anne: When you were doing the codependent stuff.

June: I was doing the codependent thing with my husband and really trying to connect, thinking the more that we could connect, the less that he would have these behaviors.

Anger & Its Legitimacy In Divorcing A Narcissist

Anne: The more you attach to your abuser, the less he would abuse you during that stage.

June: We did go to the bishop several years ago, and this bishop actually did call him to a church disciplinary council, and it was very small. It was just talking to a few of the leaders about the nature of the harm that was done. At the time this bishop said, I would invite you to come, but I feel that you’re just too upset and too angry, and there is no place for that there.

Anne: What? There’s no place for the victim to tell her experience.

June: Yes, there’s no place for your anger within the council because it’s a council of love and we want to be able to feel the spirit.

Anne: Oh, you don’t have any right to be angry and your anger is unjustified basically. This is so crazy.

June: I didn’t end up going at all. Like I said, this was several years ago. I didn’t end up going. I relied solely on my husband to tell me what the outcome of that particular event was. He said that the brethren had prayed about it and everyone had the spiritual experience that he was changed and that there was to repentance. I still kind of wonder what actually happened.

Anne: Yeah, you don’t know what went down.

June: I don’t know. I told my current bishop that I felt like that was harmful. The more that I’ve proceeded and progressed in my own healing, the more that I have recognized anger is such a healthy thing.

Understanding Divorcing A Narcissist Issues

Anne: Is totally normal. How else would you be?

June: Exactly. It’s completely normal. And I said it even kept me safe. It kept me safe from being with this person intimately, emotionally, physically, spiritually. It kept me safe at that time, and that is the only thing that kept me safe.

Anne: Yeah, because you sure weren’t doing it.

June: Exactly. Like I said, I didn’t realize it at the time because I was in this codependent model of therapy.

Anne: We’ve all been there.

June: I told this current bishop that the anger that I was labeled with and that being harmful was really, really nothing compared to the harm that I had suffered. In my marital vows being betrayed and in putting my unborn child at risk. I was 37 weeks pregnant at the time that my husband was intimate with another person, all of these lies, deceptions, betrayals and, of course, I would be angry.

Of course, I would be so upset and distraught and everything else. We had another discussion about legitimate anger and I said, I don’t see anger as a bad emotion. No emotion is bad. They just have different purposes and different meanings.

Anne: Well, and it also depends on what caused it. If your abusive perceptions of the woman who should make the meal are causing your anger. Then she doesn’t make the meal and that’s why you’re getting mad. The abusive perceptions are what’s causing the anger rather than healthy perceptions.

I think it also depends on if your perceptions are coming from a healthy place or if your perceptions are coming from an entitled, objectification, power, control, and manipulation place too.

Discussion Of Legitimacy Of Anger In Divorce

June: If they come from that place, that means that is abuse. I would say the abuser who’s angry because he’s entitled to a hot meal and the wife didn’t get it together that day and he flies off the handle, that’s abuse. That is past the point of anger into abuse.

Anne: For people who don’t know about abuse, they think, well, they’re both angry. They don’t recognize the difference between the two. Yeah,

June: Exactly. We had another really important discussion of that mechanism of abuse and violence really, and betrayal trauma. I took the time to educate him a little bit on betrayal, trauma on how women feel in this situation and how devastating it is and how expendable if felt.

When the betrayals reached a point for me that my boundary was divorce and separation. Not to mention I was unsafe, I was assaulted and that was just a boundary for me that I had to do what I did. I tried to explain that to him, I felt like it was eye opening. I felt like it was a good conversation.

Anne: It was eye opening for you or him?

June: I felt like it was eye opening for him. I had this conversation about a week ago. It’s difficult to describe what it’s like divorcing a narcissist

Anne: It’s been a week, but my guess is that over time he’ll ponder it and he’ll either move closer to the truth and he’ll get softer toward you and more protective of you, and he’ll set more boundaries around him. Or he’ll get farther away from the truth, start treating you worse and start treating the abuser better. It’s going to go one way or the other.

Church’s Financial Assistance Policies

The more he ponders it, he’s either going to start making excuses for the falsities and dig himself deeper that way, or he’s going to get better. Only time will tell.

June: Exactly. He did say that it’s very clear that he needs to speak with my husband, and he said it’s clear that he does not feel like giving him any more assistance would be appropriate without verifying and looking at his financials closer. It’s hard because in our particular religion, we have these donations set up for the needs of people, and I was always very happy to tithe and to give extra to help meet these needs.

I was under the impression that there was kind of a requirement for this to be temporary, to help people in emergency situations, you get employment somewhere else, take a second job or something like that.

Anne: Or in long-term situations with a widow for example, you would be a good candidate for a long-term situation. You’re a single mom of four. I would be a good candidate. Widows would be good candidates. It’s not that it’s always going to be short-term. There are going to be cases where it’s appropriate to have long-term help, but he’s not one of those guys.

He’s not disabled, he’s not a widow, he’s not mentally or physically disabled except for with his narcissism. He’s a doctor.

Most Painful Time Of Divorcing A Narcissist

June: Exactly. Conversely, when you compare this to the time in our separation that I was so destitute because he had paid nothing in support for almost five months. I had gone to the bishop and asked for a couple of food orders, which the church has a really great welfare program for food where they deliver food to people in local congregations.

I had asked for a couple of orders until wage garnishment could go through, and the Bishop gave me a couple of orders for me and the kids. Then all of a sudden cut me off completely and said, you don’t need this anymore. I’m not giving it to you anymore. I still hadn’t received any child support checks. I still hadn’t received any sort of support. The despair that I felt at that time when that happened is still so painful.

It is still one of the most painful feelings that I could describe. I didn’t survive because the church helped me. I survived in spite of them not helping me. That has hurt me for years.

Anne: When they’re simultaneously helping your abuser.

June: Yes.

Anne: Obviously not cutting him off.

June: No, I tried to blow the whistle in my local congregation. At the same time I was doing this, I had also called church headquarters, got the name of someone that I could speak to in the auditing department, and I shared my story with them. They were horrified about my story.

Anne: That’s great news.

Don’t Know Ultimate Result Of Speaking Up

June: It is great news. They did say that they’ve had problems in this area before that they would see about investigating it. It seems like I really kept running into these brick walls. And on top of that, it was everyone that I spoke to or had the chance to speak with, were men. They had never been in this situation.

Anne: I want to tell a story here because you don’t know what the fruits of this will be. When I was a teacher, there was something that went down that was not right. I wrote the superintendent. I just wrote a really short email and said, Hey, this is going down. It’s not cool. I didn’t hear anything for probably six months.

Then all of a sudden this superintendent showed up and had a meeting at our school with all of the teachers, and I was the facilitator of that meeting. I was the one who had brought it up in the first place. I had all of the teachers testify of what had happened. A couple of people resigned because of the email and because of what I did. I didn’t really see it immediately.

A lot of women call somebody, they write somebody, they go to a meeting, they speak up and the person just looks at ’em weird and they’re like, that didn’t go well.

You don’t know what the long-term effects of that will be. It might not be that someone resigns or that someone gets fired. It might not be that big, who knows? I don’t want this glazed over look that we get from male leadership, clergy, pastors, therapists, whoever it is to stop us from speaking unless we go in and have these meetings.

Returning To Church As A Divorcing Woman

Even though my guess is you were pretty terrified after all of the abuse that you’ve been through with clergy. I’m so proud of you and I want to encourage women. Our safety’s on the line, our emotional safety, our reputation. People call us crazy. People call us man haters. We need to keep speaking up. We will never know the extent of influence that we have.

June: More than ever, I feel so strong about that. It is easy to get discouraged. It is very easy to say, well, they listened to me. They didn’t take action right away. That just means that they’re never going to,

Anne: I don’t think that’s true. If enough of us went in and spoke, they would take action eventually. Maybe not tomorrow, maybe not next year. But if every woman who has been through this in every church or in every paradigm or with every single therapist spoke up, we could change the world.

June: Yes. So after this all happened, I also made the decision to just start attending this congregation and it kind of came out of the blue today. I had someone invite me and I trusted this person and sat by her and I went, and I could not have had a more positive experience when I went to church today.

Anne: For our listeners. She has been avoiding church.

June: For years, for over two years..

Anne: In our church, if you don’t go, it’s sort of like you’re the guilty one. See, she’s the problem because she’s not coming to church. Victims are labeled with that all the time.

Positive Experience With Church Members

June: Since this happened, I’ve definitely dealt with my share of flying monkeys in the congregation, and that’s a term where people do the bidding and the dirty work of the narcissists by spreading rumors and lies and gossip. Let me tell you, all those people were there. I have done a lot of work. I’ve gone to the BTR groups, I’ve done guided meditation and I have done all of this work on healing.

I’ve read books today. I can say that I went there and I was really strong and felt for the most part, unaffected emotionally. I felt that my boundaries were my boundaries and that those people and what they say or what they think really didn’t have to affect me. And I do not for one second want to make it seem that we have a choice all the time for these things not to affect us.

I am saying that healing takes time and that healing can happen. You can get to a place where it will be okay. It will be okay for you. Actually, my husband’s affair partner was also in the ward.

Anne: Also your really good friend before he had an affair with her.

June: Yes. My really good friend who was also in the ward, it was her mother who was teaching one of the lessons today. I was like, oh my goodness, what are the chances? But it was a wonderful lesson. It was on mental health challenges and the stigmatization that doesn’t need to happen. She taught the lesson. It was fantastic. I added some things because I work in the area of mental health.

Verified Lies & Affair While Divorcing A Narcissist

We got to talking and she didn’t know who I was and she wanted to know who I was. In the parking lot afterwards, I told her who I was.

Anne: She’s probably heard horrific stories about you. She just didn’t know you were the one that she had heard these horrific stories about.

June: Yes. I just said to her, I believe that your daughter and my husband had an affair. I said, I don’t want you to feel any way about it. I’m just telling you that I’m the wife. She said that she was very aware that they had a relationship and she didn’t know that he was still married. We kind of became friends and talked about our similar career interests.

There is no way I could have had a conversation like that two years ago when this was fresh. There is no possible way. Today I had a conversation. It was a very difficult conversation with someone that I would’ve never dreamed I could have a conversation with before. It’s a lot like the conversation that I had with the bishop.

I would’ve never dreamed I could have such an impactful and pleasant and peaceful conversation while saying exactly what I needed to say.

Anne: This is also a testament to being away from your abuser for years, that you’re talking about it. You didn’t have as many boundaries. The manipulation and fog that they can create is really dark. The longer you set the boundaries for safety, emotional, physical, psychological, sexual safety. The longer you set those, not only do you get more and more out of the fog, so do other people.

Setting Boundaries For Narcissistic Behaviors & Results

June: Yes. And I feel that that has really been also a roadmap to trying to co-parent with a narcissist. We are still having major issues, major issues and issues where the kids’ safety has even been a concern. Issues of abusive things going on.

The more that I am in these situations and the more that I just do not react and just set those boundaries, set the boundaries for safety, the more that I find it not affecting me as much. Now it’s hard because I do see some of this affecting the children, and that is a big challenge. It breaks my heart.

They will use the children to hurt you when they can’t hurt you directly anymore. I feel that that is what is happening, that is horrifying. It’s horrifying.

Anne: It is. Yeah. Well, and the boundaries you have to set are really rough too. For example, I set a boundary that my children go out in the clothes that they came in with. The reason I set that boundary is because he was stealing my clothes. I would send them out in nice clothes and he would send them back in hand me down rags from his family.

I asked repeatedly, please send them back in the clothes I sent them out with. And he said, it’s impossible. He was like, well, you wash their clothes. He just did all these things. Finally, I just said, okay, I’ll send them back in the clothes you send them in. I saved some of his clothes from when they came back in their rags. One day I sent them out in his rags, and we’ve been doing that ever since.

Discussing Boundaries While Divorcing A Narcissist

It breaks my heart. My children do not want to put those rags on, and I don’t want to send them out of the house like that, but that is the boundary. I said, you guys, I’m so sorry. Your dad’s choices hurt everyone. They hurt me. They hurt you. I am sorry that you don’t have snow boots when you go to his house. That’s his job and I’m divorced from him. The challenges of divorcing a narcissist are immense.

I don’t need to babysit him anymore or make sure that your needs are met when it’s his job to take care of you. It’s so hard to make those choices. I don’t think that women can start making these boundaries unless they have a lot of support.

When I say support, I mean someone who understands this type of abuse to help them set the boundaries, because otherwise, that type of boundary seems really hard. I seem like I’m this awful, terrible person who’s sending my kids out in rags, and I had to make that decision based on assessing my values, assessing the consequences of his behavior to his own children.

Do you think you could have set the boundaries that you set without The BTR Community without Betrayal Trauma Recovery?

June: Definitely not. When I first started learning about boundaries, it was a foreign concept to me. I was never taught this growing up or my faith. I was never taught this in college even. It has really been a learning process. When I started learning about boundaries, I inevitably made mistakes along the way as everyone does.

Support From BTR Group Sessions While Divorcing A Narcissist

Anne: How did The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community help you progress in your knowledge and your application of those boundaries?

June: I could come with a scenario. I could come with a real life problem and be directed into what my values were, what my boundaries should be around those values. What that ultimately looks like in practice and being supported, being supported in whatever boundary I chose. That was my boundary and I was going to be supported in that, and I knew I had backup, and that was huge.

Anne: The other thing that’s so hard about boundaries is, let me read you this quote I just saw. So this is a line from ancient Sanskrit scripture. It says, you are only entitled to the action, never to its fruits, which I think is really good. That’s how boundaries are. And that’s why people are so afraid to set them, because you set a boundary and you have no idea what the consequences are going to be.

You just have to know that what I’m doing is for my safety, and this is what feels right now. You can always adjust, I set that boundary and maybe that wasn’t the right thing to do. Next time I’ll do it differently. Right? Like you said, you’re going to make some mistakes. Things will need to adjust. My boundary that I set, I didn’t want to get divorced.

Difficulty Communicating With A Liar

I didn’t think divorce was going to be where that led, I needed no contact. I cannot have any semblance of communication with this person without him lying to me, manipulating me, trying to pull one over on me, nothing. There can be no communication without that. I didn’t know what the consequences would be. Some women set a boundary and their husband thinks, wow, I’ve been abusive.

I’m sorry. We don’t know what the consequences are going to be. That is one thing that you need support for. You need support to know, even though this could lead to something awful or good. We have no idea, if we focus on the now and the safety in the moment, then it will always lead us down the right path.

June: Exactly. Boundaries can change. When I first started in this process of going through litigation for custody it is expected that we co-parent and communicate. I took what that judge said very seriously. I would write detailed email updates every month with the kid’s appointments, how they were doing with pictures, all of these things to him and do it very quickly.

This last court date, I found out that he used a lot of that against me. A lot of it was sadly very, very sadly used against me. This judge didn’t really care about that so much. He actually made a comment that these people are divorced. They’re not going to co-parent, who cares. While I am totally and willingly invested in co-parenting with a healthy person, I doubt very much that that can happen when divorcing a narcissist.

Now I’m left renegotiating, alright, where does this leave me as far as communication and how much do I want to have?

The BTR Living Free Workshop Helped

Anne: Yeah. The BTR Living Free Workshop teaches these tools and the phrases to use to ensure that the communication is safe and is leading towards safety. We found that these tools work whether or not you’re married or divorced or separated, these tools work no matter what stage you’re in.

June: My emails to him are short, to the point, unemotional, straightforward and full of facts. That’s it, nothing else. Nothing else needs to be there. My communication is polite but brief. It is the communication that I would have with someone like a boss or a coworker or something like that.

Anne: The reason why I love having women from our community on the podcast is because everyone can benefit from hearing other women’s stories. As you listen, if you relate and you would like to come on the podcast and share your story, please email us at podcast@btr.org.

June: It’s very, very important. I can not stress this enough. It is so important for women in this situation to do research on divorcing a narcissist. A lot of these guys that have porn issues and infidelity issues, have narcissistic issues as well. You do not see that until, I often say, I was married. I could manage this behavior. I could manage him a little bit because I kind of knew how to work around these things.

Anne: I’d say the same of me managing it. Yeah.

Abuse Escalation While Divorcing A Narcissist

June: Yes. A friend told me when I was being severely abused every day, verbally abused, emotionally abused, spiritually abused. She was aware of the situation. She even said to me, just make sure what is in your future because it can and it will get worse. At the time, I thought, there’s nothing that could be worse than going through this constant and daily abuse every single day.

I felt like I was losing my mind, I didn’t know which end was up, I didn’t know reality. I had such a fog, fear, obligation, and guilt I was really, really just not a healthy person. Now I begin to see what she was talking about. Yes, the abuse is worse because now it is directed towards my children. Now it is directed within the community. Now it is directed in different ways that are so much harder to prove.

It’s like if you went into court, do you think a judge is really going to care that he sends your kids in rags?

Anne: No.

June: I mean, the judge that I went to, he would say, get out of here,

Anne: Or Why are you so judgy? Or whatever. That’s not the thing that I think is abusive. The abusive thing is stealing my clothes, not respecting anyone’s time and all those things. He has plenty of money. He could buy him boots or whatever, but he doesn’t.

Manipulation Of Proceedings When Divorcing A Narcissist

June: Right. And the thing is that I feel like a lot of the family court professionals, judges, things like that, have really been desensitized. They hear horrific cases of abuse. When a dad can’t get the kids somewhere on time or can’t return their clothes, it just does not register with them as the abuse that it is. It is abuse because we feel it. We know that.

I think these things are purposeful because he knows no one’s going to care. He knows I care because I can’t afford to go out and buy a new coat every time that he forgets to return theirs.

Anne: Exactly. Yeah. Well, you’ve got a doctor for an ex or soon to be ex, I have an attorney.

June: Yes

Anne: They know what they can and cannot do. And so they go right up to that line and they don’t cross it.

June: Yes. And going back to your original point, that is very much within their realm and their playbook of abuse and narcissism. They know what they’re doing and they not only know, but they exploit that in a way that sometimes is unbelievable. It’s unbelievable. Yeah, I do feel like things have gotten worse, this is what happens when divorcing a narcissist.

I have spent probably close to a hundred thousand dollars trying to get divorced. I’m still not divorced. That is the reality of divorcing a narcissist. That is the reality.

Anne: That’s financial abuse.

Escalation Of Abuse In Divorce Proceedings

June: It is financial abuse. It’s legal abuse. It’s everything. Things are worse. The difference is that now I’m not in that constant state of abuse in my own home. I can deal with this other abuse. Now I feel like I can function. I am a functional adult. I’m not only surviving, but I am thriving despite all of this other abuse. It’s horrible, horrible abuse still, but I’m able to handle it.

Anne: So you’re not finished with your divorce yet, but do you have some tips for our listeners? I want you to start way back with even listeners who are not thinking that divorce is in their future. Even listeners who are thinking, No, he seems to be understanding what I’m saying. He seems to be getting better because you and I both went through a phase where we thought, oh, things are getting better. He understands.

I’m not saying that listeners who are in that phase are going to get to the divorce phase. Maybe he will continue to improve, and if so, both June and I are very happy for you. That’s great. We wish that would’ve happened for us and it didn’t. Let’s start there. Even for women in that phase, what tips do you have about what is coming, what to expect and things that you wish that you would’ve known?

June: It would’ve been very helpful for me to know that really the natural progression of these cases when they are taken to court. If a dad goes back and asks for more time, whatever. Any information about divorcing a narcissist would be helpful. The court will oftentimes just give him a little bit more time. Like I said, my situation was that there has been all this bad behavior.

Narcissistic Husband’s Lying in Court

Surely he won’t be rewarded with a big change. He wasn’t rewarded with a huge change, but it was enough of a change that he could exploit the lack of boundaries, like I said, and now that’s what we have. Now that’s what I’m going to deal with. Be prepared for them to paint a picture of you that is literally unrecognizable.

He lied about many, many things. He said all of these things about me not caring for the kids or the kids being dirty and all of this other nonsense.

That’s very hard. It’s very hard when I feel like so many times I have literally been the bigger person. I have invited him to the kids’ events, made sure to save a seat for him and been very aware and doing the emotional labor to include him in those things. To have that used against me is horrible. It feels horrible. It’s a betrayal on its own.

After this last court date, like I said, I was in shock. I was in some trauma because I know what boundaries, the lack of boundaries would do to my husband in this situation. It’s only going to get worse. That was very hard. If I had expected that a little bit more, I think it would’ve been maybe a little bit easier. You talked to me right afterwards and I was pretty distraught. Now I’m feeling okay about it.

Divorcing A Narcissist: Documentation In Preparation For Future

I feel like I’ve gotten some good coping skills and that documentation is going to be huge. So the other thing that I learned is that documentation is key. It is paramount. You have got to document everything. That can be a challenge sometimes. One thing that I’ve learned that has helped me immensely wherever I am is I use the BTR boundary log.

Anne: The boundary log is a log that is available to women who have taken The Living Free Workshop that teaches all of these strategies about how to think about it, how to set boundaries, and how to communicate. The boundary isn’t just an independent book that you would buy, it’s for you specifically for women who have enrolled in The Living Free Workshop.

June: Yes, that has been great. Anytime there is some kind of an issue, the kid’s not getting somewhere on time, an offhanded comment, him swearing at me, him forgetting to return one of the kids’ items and refusing to go get it. I just write that down and that is my log. The way that you document your evidence is very, very important. Keeping a timeline of those things in real time is huge.

Another thing that I’ve learned is that I think that a lot of times the narcissistic ex is really in the mindset of winning. This is about winning for him. I don’t think that he really wants the kids asking for 50/50, and mind you, he hasn’t gotten it. He keeps asking, acting like he wants it. I think that this is about winning for him. It’s not that he actually wants to have the kids but that he wants the appearance of wanting the kids.

Husband’s Public Persona Backfires

On dating sites, it says that he has them 50/50. Sometimes I think that you can use that to your advantage. I am aware of a woman who allowed her ex to say that he had 50/50 when in reality it wasn’t, and he didn’t actually want it. He just wanted to be able to say that.

June: However you can make that and use that to your benefit, I think is important.

Anne: Before you move on, I want to stress that you might get really upset in court about things like, oh, they’re saying this thing and I don’t want that thing to happen. The reality is once that paper is signed and the divorce decree is done, what happens may be very different. You might think, oh, okay, I got everything that I wanted, or I didn’t get anything that I wanted, or whatever it is.

In reality, it might not even function like that. Just note that what they really want is the appearance of things. If they’re saying things, but it’s really not affecting the way you and your kids live, oh, for heaven’s sake, let them say it. That’s a type of battle that’s not worth fighting. This is like win-win because they get to live their lie and you get to get away.

June: Yeah, that’s exactly right. Part of me thinks that once we get the divorce finalized, divide the property and everything. Maybe things will calm down a little bit. I’ve often said I can deal with whatever crazy schedule we have, whatever he is going to do to me for the amount of time that he gets the kids every month, then fine. Most of the time I am peaceful, and that’s everything.

Build Community Support For Divorcing A Narcissist

That’s another tip that I want to share, please build your community and engage in your self-care and get to know the ropes. I can’t stress that enough. If I had the choice not to go through the court system, I would do that because this has been traumatizing. It is awful. It makes you feel victimized again and again and again. I feel like the narcissist. Really press on that.

Anne: The court system tends to work better for them than it does for the victims, and mostly because the victims are telling the truth and they’re willing to lie about anything.

June: Sometimes I find myself almost shocked at the stuff they would lie about. It’s almost so obvious that you don’t think they would lie about it. You will be shocked at what it’s like divorcing a narcissist. You don’t think that you’re going to have to prove it wrong. I mean, why would you ever think that you had to prove reality? Well, with a narcissist, you do.

Anne: If you can get away with not proving it by not getting in the argument about reality in the first place, that’s the best case scenario. There’s no way they’re ever going to say, oh yeah, you presented all these facts. Okay, good point. That’s never going to happen.

June: Now that we’re done with custody, I have asked my husband if it is possible at all for us to just reach a settlement in terms of the divorce and property. I filed on grounds and in my state grounds go to fault. I did file a fault divorce as opposed to a no-fault divorce. A fault divorce, if proven, can influence equitable division of property at this point.

Husband’s Sabotaging Himself

Now that it’s been two years, I am more than willing to forego that whole process and move on with my life. Not having to go through all of that to be able to prove grounds and establish grounds and fault. I asked him recently if he wanted to come to a settlement. We don’t have that many things to divide up.

I can’t imagine why we couldn’t come to some sort of reasonable agreement, which is what the courts would do anyway, really divide everything.

He told me, no, I intend to go through the courts for this. The reason is beyond me, and I’m still trying to figure that out. When we start digging into affairs, adultery, abuse, cruelty, when we start digging, we will deposition people. That’ll be people from church, people from his old workplace, people from the community. I imagine that that will bring up things that he probably does not want to see the light of day.

I cannot, for the life of me understand it, I sat here and I tried for about a week to figure out what he is thinking and why on earth he would be doing this, wanting to do that. Doesn’t he realize what’s at stake? Well, I finally figured that because to him, he feels so entitled and because to him, he has really gotten rewarded for lying.

He came into court and told completely falsified story. He really hasn’t felt the consequences of that. I almost feel that his response was also a peek into how delusional his thinking is and how entitled and untouchable he really feels.

No Longer Afraid Of Narcissistic Husband

He has not felt the consequences of his actions. I feel that his response was really indicative of that, that he doesn’t think there will be any consequences.

Anne: Do you think there will be? Are you more hopeful about him having the consequences of the property settlement? Or are you, after what you’ve been through, thinking oh my gosh it’s going to go bad too. Well, it can’t go bad because the worst thing that can happen is they divide everything up equally. He’s willing to spend a ton of money to try and avoid the inevitable, really.

June: Exactly. Let me just cut my losses and get out of this. I don’t want to have to go through depositions. Do you think I want to sit here and go through all of these women? I have no desire to do that, but because now I can kind of see the writing on the wall and I can say, okay, I guess if this is what you’re going to want to do, that’s what we’re going to be doing.

It’s kind of a bluff game. I think for him it is well, I’m going to make her so scared that I’m going to actually do this. In my case, I don’t have anything to be scared about. I feel like that’s a very interesting point, I feel that never, never underestimate reasoning with them. I thought for sure that we would be able to reason and reach a settlement especially when he has things like this at stake.

While divorcing a narcissist their entitlement gets in the way of their self-preservation, if that makes sense.

Hope For The Future After Divorcing A Narcissist

Anne: Yeah, I agree. And they just make really, really poor choices. Wow. Well, we’ll see how it goes. It’ll be interesting to see over the years, especially with our ex’s because we have very similar ones. They’re both very professional. They’re both supposedly active in church. They both show up in the white shirt and tie kind of thing. It’ll be interesting to see over time the consequences that happen.

The good news is, even if we don’t worry about them at all, which is hard because they’re still dealing with our kids. June and I are getting exponentially stronger and more and more firm in our boundaries. The safety in our homes is increasing and we’re healing more and more. We’re finding more peace and safety in our lives. That’s exciting. Any woman can find that even if your ex is not as horrific.

Even if you’re considering whether or not you need to set boundaries with your current husband.

Even if they’re not showing these types of horrific behaviors, you still get to decide, how am I going to think about this? What boundaries do I need to set? How am I going to communicate? All the information that you need to know in order to make really good decisions is in The BTR Living Free Workshop that can take you through these strategies.

This interview was actually years ago, and I’m talking about it now after getting to safety. When I did this interview, I was not completely safe like I am now, but now I’m a hundred percent safe and I use the strategies in The Living Free Workshop.

Too often, we expect abuse victims to look a certain way: downtrodden, economically-dependent, and submissive. But that’s not true. Abuse is exploitative in nature. What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? Strength and ability, here’s why.

If you relate to this episode and wonder if you’re experiencing emotional abuse, take this free emotional abuse quiz.

Leslie, a successful doctor with multiple degrees, a victim of her ex-husband’s horrific abuse – shares her story.

Here’s What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims: Financial Resources

Financially independent women may have difficulty accepting they are being abused. Because they are well-educated and respected in the workplace. The discrepancy with the way their abusive husband treats them at home may cause them to question reality. And create a disconnect in their ability to identify as a victim.

Interestingly, financial abuse is a very sad reality for women who are breadwinners in their families. This form of financial abuse may occur when the abuser:

• Refuses to work and/or contribute to family expenses.
• Uses the victim’s earnings to fund extravagant expenses and/or abusive expenses (dating apps, pornography, drugs, alcohol, etc).
• Takes the victim’s paychecks and diverts them to his account.
• Demands a portion of the victim’s paycheck and refuses to account for where the money goes.
• Attempts to sabotage the victim’s career.
• Promises to earn an income, but either cannot hold down a job or doesn’t try to secure a job.
• Forces the victim to be the breadwinner, then makes her feel guilty for doing so.
• Places an expectation that all expenses are the responsibility of the victim.
• Is constantly resetting the time horizon as to when the financially playing field will be leveled.
• Refuses to contribute to daily household tasks while the victim works to support the family.

But I Thought I Was Smart”

Many victims berate themselves for “allowing” abuse.

They say things like:

• “But I thought I was smart!”
• “How could I be so stupid?!”
• “I don’t look like an abuse victim.”
• “Resources for abuse victims go to them – I should get myself out of this.”
• “I was stupid enough to get into this, I need to get myself out of this.”

Victims who have the capacity to earn a living can be extremely hard on themselves.

If you have experienced financial success, you are just as valid as any other victim of abuse – you deserve safety. You are entitled to every resource available to victims.

Transcript: What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims?

Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. Leslie is a successful doctor caught in the throes of a horrendously abusive relationship. All of our listeners get that. One of the purposes of having her on the podcast today is to talk about how abuse does not discriminate, and how difficult it can be for even successful or well spoken women, and all of you are like that.

Maybe we didn’t recognize it because we didn’t identify as victims, but also no one else would identify us as a victim. And so we want to dig into that today: What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? So welcome Leslie.

Leslie: Thank you. Thank you for having me on. I hope my story can help others. There were many dark times that I never thought I would get to the other side, but here I am. Not only surviving, I am thriving.

Anne: Like you, now that I’m thriving, the podcast sounds so much different than it did when I started. So if those of you who are listening. If it’s a little difficult or you’re like, don’t talk to me about the light at the end of the tunnel. I’m never going to feel good. My life is over, Leslie and I have been there. I just want to acknowledge that many of our listeners will be like, oh, I don’t want to hear that. That’s not possible for me.

Leslie: I agree. I lost myself so much within that whole abusive relationship, it was hard to think that I could ever climb out.

Recognizing Red Flags

Leslie: Then I joined the BTR.ORG Group Sessions and listened to the stories told. They’re all so similar, but different in their own ways. And then I saw women change things around. I greatly appreciate it.

Anne: So Leslie, let’s start at the beginning of your story. Did you recognize your husband’s abusive behaviors at first?

Leslie: He was my second husband. My first husband was my high school sweetheart. Unfortunately, we lost him. So I was at a very vulnerable time when I met my second husband. And I think he knew that. Maybe that’s part of what he was looking for in a victim. I think he used that to his advantage. He was a coworker with whom I worked a few years before that, just kind of an acquaintance. We connected on Facebook, and of course, he came in on his white horse and shining armor.

And when I look back now, can I see every single red flag? Yes, I can. However, in the throes of it, I used every excuse why those red flags were not red flags.

Anne: So at the time, were you also giving what you thought perhaps were valid reasons? Like maybe he had a traumatic childhood, or maybe this is new and we’re working on our communication skills. Only because you didn’t know it was abuse. My guess is, back then, had you been educated in abuse, you would have known what you were looking at. You just did not know what you didn’t know.

Leslie: Exactly, 110%.

https://youtu.be/QleyqobSRCQ He Hadn’t Ever Been Married

Leslie: He was six years younger than I was and hadn’t ever married. I had been married for 27 years, with three kids. So when we started talking, I kind of saw him as a person who was totally enmeshed in his family. My enmeshed husband’s life had been wallowed up by his family. I obviously, as a doctor, it’s my job to fix things. I see broken things and try to help.

He hadn’t been in stable relationships, because he had never met anyone like me. That was one of the wonderful lines that he always used, you know, and how everybody always cheated on him. Emotional abusers look for women who they can groom for their victims?

I just hooked on to all that hook line and sinker. So of course, it was my initiation to get married. He didn’t want to get married. I’m sure everybody has either watched or knows about The Maid. And I will tell you, it took me a long time to get through that series.

Anne: The Maid is a series on Netflix. I highly recommend it. It is triggery, especially depending on where you are in your healing process. But there are many super important principles that they bring up, and they cover all the basics.

Leslie: My friend recommended it to me. She said, “I probably shouldn’t have recommended it so soon.” I was still fresh, and it took me a long time to watch it, all those red flags that I didn’t see. I continued with the relationship. We were actually in therapy before we ever got married. My 18 year old daughter, there was one point where she was like, mom, what are you doing?

Struggles With Pornography Addiction: What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims?

Leslie: I just couldn’t see it. So it was just one of those things where it became, you know, years of being pushed down. And then I was diagnosed with breast cancer. And I did get him into therapy, probably nine months into our relationship. Because he had never been in therapy in his entire life.

And he used those to check the boxes. It wasn’t until we got into a couples therapist that the relationship became even rockier, more abusive. He was more emotionally abusive, getting in your face. The one part I love in The Maid, the series, is when she says, but he’s never hit me.

When I listened to that, that hit me to my core because I said the same thing. Well, he’s never hit me. It’s not abuse. He’s never hit me. What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? You know, I’m strong, independent, I run two hospitals, I’ve got six degrees, I’m not being abused. I was the one researching everything, I was the one always trying to find answers.

The first time I caught him with exploiatative material was probably the first year we were together. He had probably over 50,000 pictures of naked women of all ages on his phone. Which ended up escalating into many other areas of, you know, finding him on dating websites and you name it.

Anne: So when you say of various ages, here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we use the term child abuse material because that’s what it is. So did you also find that on his phone?

Understanding Abuse & Addiction With Therapy

Leslie: They were young looking. Yes. And then actually that was his M. O. was younger women. Maybe that’s what he was looking for in his victims? And he actually later in my journey with him, when we kind of identified a potential addiction. But honestly, now that I’m at where I’m in my life and journey, I think he just went along with that diagnosis.

He went to an expensive inpatient treatment center for three weeks, and checked all his boxes. Because he knew that was the only way he could stay in, in the marriage. But yet, he continued to exhibit all the behaviors when he came out. He ended up getting fired from his job for harassment of a younger person, younger than 21.

Anne: Let’s talk about the addiction recovery. When you went down that road for a minute. Did anyone in that space or at that clinic tell you that you are an abuse victim? Was abuse brought up?

Leslie: I caught him in multiple online affairs. And we were at our last straw. We were seeing a couples counselor. The counselor goes, “I don’t understand what’s wrong with him.”

He keeps getting caught. He knows what he’s got to lose. The counselor said it’s almost like he has an addiction or something. And I go, well, is there such a thing as addiction? And of course, then I started researching everything with my analytical brain. We started going down that path. We did start with CSAT counselors, which stands for Certified Addiction Therapist.

He had one, I had one, he did end up doing one of the well known programs out in Los Angeles. Never said domestic violence, never said abuse.

Leslie’s Realization & Empowerment

Anne: Most of the time, you can’t have infidelity without emotional abuse and when people go down the addiction recovery route, they don’t hear the word abuse.

Leslie: Nope, I agree.

Anne: So, here at BTR.ORG, some people don’t agree with us, in fact many people don’t agree with us. You might not agree with us. Is exploitative material addictive? Sure, I prefer to define it as abusive behavior rather than an addiction.

Leslie: Yes

Anne: Because I think that gets to the heart of the matter. The whole addiction recovery complex does not view this man as an abuser. It concerns me greatly, because I do not think they’re addressing the correct thing.

Leslie: I 100 percent agree with that. The two CSAT counselors that we were working with, his and mine, were two different ones. Mine actually had been married to an abuser, and she divorced hers. The other one that my ex had seen, she had stayed with hers. It’s actually interesting to see the dynamic of what they brought to each of the therapy sessions.

Anne: Did she ever say, um, well, he’s checking boxes. That’s also called grooming. Did she ever bring that up?

Leslie: She didn’t, she said, the whole trauma bonding thing.

Anne: Can we talk about trauma bonding examples for a minute, Leslie?

Leslie: Sure.

Anne: I’m not sure if you’ve heard our episode about this. I made up a different term for it. Because I don’t like the word trauma bond, because it feels like you actually maybe have a bond. If trauma bond is useful to you, and it’s helped move you forward and get to safety, continue using it. I didn’t like it because it seemed like a lot of women, feel stuck, right?

What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims? The Manufactured Relational Tether

Anne: They’re like, but I’m bonded to this person through this trauma. And so the term I invented, and we have a video on this that is amazing. So I’ll put that in this episode. So if you go to our website and find this episode, the video will be in there. I call it the manufactured relational tether. Actually, I think I’ve seen that.

The reason I call it is because you think you’re bonded to them, but they are not bonded to you. And they have manufactured this tether to keep you stuck. And that video clearly shows it. Do you remember that video? This is one of the ways emotional abusers keep their victims stuck.

Leslie: Yes, I do.

Anne: What did you think of it?

Leslie: I thought it was awesome, because I saw so many things. Like people who saw like our relationship from the start to the end. If they know now that we’ve divorced, they are just shocked. They’re like, Oh Mike, seemed like such an amazing person. He brought you flowers every day. I hate flowers now. Just an FYI to me, that is a huge trigger. Because when he would be trying to hook up with someone and get caught, guess what he did.

Brought me flowers or he was abusive that night. That’s what he did the next day, brought me flowers. So flowers to me are a huge trigger. But those are all the outside things they manufacture to everybody else. So nobody will believe your story. Nobody will believe, because they just see this “awesome person.” They don’t see what goes on behind closed doors. They don’t see the reactions.

The Turning Point: Breast Cancer

Leslie: The reason I brought up my breast cancer story was that when I first started to say, okay, I think this is not going to work. But then I found out I had breast cancer. I’ve got three grown children who don’t have their own father still alive. And I was like, and now I’m going to leave them motherless. I cannot fight him and fight for my life. So I decided that all would go on the back burner while I fought for my life.

I feel like that gave him a little more leeway to continue that whole, keeping me down more and more. And it wasn’t until after I’d been through the chemo, been through the double mastectomy. And had been through months and months of CSAT counseling, we had done a therapeutic separation. Once I got out of the situation, I woke up one morning and looked in the mirror.

And I just didn’t recognize the person looking back at me anymore. I was like, wow, you would never in a million years allow this ever, ever in your life. How are you allowing this now? And that was when I started to take my power back. That’s when I started the change of not necessarily working toward our reconciliation. But working more on focusing on myself and what I needed. And if that happened, then it happened. And if it didn’t, I was okay with that.

Anne: Let’s talk about the therapy disclosure. I think that is insane when you’re looking at abuse, right? In an ideal world, which never happens.

What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims? Leslie’s Academic and Professional Achievements

Anne: It does happen here at BTR.ORG. That’s why I love BTR.ORG. It’s an amazing oasis of truth. But what should happen is the second you go in there, and it’s hard. Because it took you forever to figure out they were an abuser. So, why is a therapist smarter than you? They’re not, right? You, you have six degrees. Some emotional abusers look for very accomplished women to be their victims. By the way, can you just list your degrees real quick?

Leslie: So I have a bachelor’s in nursing. I have a master’s in nursing with family practice, and a master’s in nursing and neonatal. I have a doctorate, and I just went back for a neonatal fellowship that I just finished last year.

Anne: And you’re a medical doctor?

Leslie: Yep.

Anne: Okay. So you have your MD as well.

Leslie: Yes.

Anne: All right. And you run two hospitals. Okay, so Leslie is no dummy, people. So if you were like, why didn’t I see it? Why didn’t I know what was going on? And then Leslie is so smart that she starts researching things. And in this case, her research actually kept her in the abuse longer. Accidentally, right? It’s not your fault. But because it wasn’t abuse out of the gate, it’s like addiction, maybe childhood trauma, it’s some other things.

You go in and you’re given this, like, let’s do a therapeutic disclosure, or other things that a CSAT would tell you. If you went to church or when you went to church, how did he present in the, in a religious setting? A Catholic father raised me and a Baptist mother. So they never agreed on religion.

The Church & Misogyny

Leslie: So I found my religion and spirituality later in life. It was always funny to me that he would say how Catholic he was. He went to a Catholic high school. His family went to church every Sunday, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. All the lies, all the abuse, the stealing, things that he would do that were immoral. They just never added up to what a good Christian would do.

Anne: So my guess is that even though you didn’t go for help with the clergy route, many women do. Many of our listeners have tried to get help from clergy, their pastor, bishop or rabbi. They have gone to get help, and they are more abused in the process because the clergy does not know what they’re looking at. And they might be abusive themselves.

They might be steeped in misogyny. And also, they may like him. I think that’s probably the biggest problem, is they know the guy and think he’s a great guy. And so they are like, what are you talking about? Because many clergy respond well when they don’t know the man.

Like if they listen, they’re like, wow, that sounds abusive. How can we help? But if they know him, they believe him over you. So it’s good that you didn’t try to get help from clergy. Because my guess is that would have been traumatic. But let’s focus then on the trauma that came from therapy. From basically prolonging the abuse. When do you start realizing that being a supportive, helpful spouse is working against you?

Leslie: It was when I realized I had totally lost myself. I was not the person I was.

The Breaking Point

Leslie: I wouldn’t engage in activities. I wouldn’t go out with my friends anymore. There were so many things that gave me joy that I would not do anymore. Just because I just existed. I was the major breadwinner. He did not work. He couldn’t hold down a job. And my breaking point for the first time we separated was that we were actually in the car dealership getting him a new car. Because his lease was up.

And I looked over and he was actually on Tinder making a hookup. While we were in the car dealership, buying him a new car. He moved out, and that was a very explosive time. We tried to navigate through that, with our couples counselor.

Anne: Sorry, it’s interesting. The words you’re using, you’re using the word we. So he’s trying to like reassert control here, which is emotional abuse, which is why things are escalating. And we as a couple are not working on anything. But because your perspective is we, even now, talking about it. It’s really interesting that victims still may be looking back and thinking, well, we were trying. When that was never happening in the first place,

Leslie: it was, it was only me. You’re 100% right.

Anne: Yeah. Because you’re in the relationship. You have a relationship, but they don’t have a relationship with you.

The Illusion Of Partnership: What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims?

Leslie: That has been one of my biggest challenges. Because being successful, being a helper, a doer, I did a lot of medical relief work pre-COVID. And he ended up piggybacking or riding my coattails on many of my trips. I would go on these trips, and maybe five photos the whole time. I was there because I’m there to work, I’m there to help. I’m there doing medical relief work. He was looking for a victim who could make him look good.

He had thousands of photos all over social media about what a wonderful thing he was doing, and him and him and him. And I remember early on in our relationship. saying to him, what are your dreams? What are your aspirations? What are your goals? And I accomplished two more degrees. When I was with him. I always would say, you know, don’t you have a dream? Don’t you have an aspiration? What do you want to do? I said, you can’t always ride on my coattails.

I have my dreams, my aspirations of what I want to do with my life. You, you should have your own, and then we should have together goals. That was a really hard thing for me to wrap my brain around. That somebody would not have goals or not have the same drive and ambition that I had. So looking back and seeing how much he groomed and took from me.

My brother said this a few months ago. I know he didn’t mean to say it. I’ve learned to not take things personally when people say things. People sometimes just don’t know what to say. They don’t mean to say things the way they come out, but they were friends, and I think they’re loosely still friendly.

Family Dynamics & Realizations

Leslie: We don’t talk about it. And they used to go snowmobiling together. My brother went on a yearly trip, and all the guys, I guess, asked where my ex was. He said, “Well, he’s not a kept man anymore.” He said, “My sister got smart to his ways, and he’s not a kept man anymore.” Which kind of stunned me a bit, because I was like, That is exactly what he was. He was looking for someone to take advantage of.

He had his cake, and he could eat it too. Who wouldn’t want that? He had the nice house on the lake, and all the toys. He got to travel the world. And he still got to screw around on the side. So, you know, who wouldn’t want a life like that?

Anne: So, what he wasn’t looking for, which is so painful to recognize in hindsight, was a true partnership.

Leslie: Correct.

Anne: Emotional abusers look for someone they can exploiat. All his behaviors were intent on grooming you. To use you for finances, travel and also prestige. Like he’s the husband of this great, amazing, successful woman, but he didn’t want to be your partner.

Leslie: 100%, and that was a really hard pill for me to swallow when I finally realized that this was not a partnership whatsoever.

Anne: And when you started going to therapy, like right at the beginning, before you were even married. Did the therapist tip you off to this?

Leslie: I think she did. And then when we had been married for a year. We moved to the West side of Michigan, away from his family. Because honestly, if we hadn’t, we probably wouldn’t have stayed married as long as we did.

Therapist’s Insight & Warnings

Leslie: When we moved to the West Side, I started seeing a new therapist, and she is amazing. She called me out on it almost immediately. She’s like, you realize he’s a narcissist, that he’s using you, that this is abuse. I would always have excuses, and she was very blunt, and she’d be like, no, I’m telling you. That is what abusers look for in their victims, someone to use. And then when I stopped seeing her, because we went down the whole addiction road.

So then I got my own CSAT. When I finally got out of that. I ended up going back to my original one, and I had a final session with my CSAT. She said, why are you stopping seeing me? And I don’t mind, because I just wonder. And I said, because the reason I’m seeing you no longer exists. I said, I don’t need to see you anymore, because this isn’t a CSAT matter.

Anne: Yeah, the interesting thing was it was never a CSAT matter.

Leslie: No, you’re right.

Anne: And the unfortunate thing is the CSAT didn’t tell you that, right? Because they do not see it as abuse. And I think they are clinically negligent.

Leslie: Although I will say I have the utmost respect. We were recommended to a counselor, who is a CSAT counselor who only sees married couples, for couple therapy. So he would have his, I’d have mine. And then we were going to see this couple one. We went to him the first time. And at the end of it, he looked at us and went, “I don’t think I can help you guys.”

Leslie: And I was so blown away.

What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims? The Role of A Couples Therapy

Leslie: I go, what do you mean? I said, he just spent all this money on this program. You know, he’s “checking the boxes,” dah, dah, dah.

He goes, “No, he’s not.” He goes, “I see all the things he’s not doing. And you want me to tell you to trust him when he’s not trustworthy? I can’t do that. And I will not take your money.”

I have the utmost respect for him, because the fact that he saw, I mean, he could have just kept taking our money and kept saying, Oh yeah, I can fix you guys. This is fine.

He did say, I want to have one individual session with each of you, and then I’ll make my final decision. And even in my first session with him, he was like, what are you doing? He’s like, really? You know, it’s funny. Lake Michigan is known for being very turbulent, and he goes, you know, they put those red flags out in the middle of the lake when they tell you not to go swimming. You saw all those red flags, and you still went swimming.

Anne: Well, it’s because you didn’t know how to process the red flag. So as you saw the red flag. To you, it said, okay, he’s got childhood trauma. He needs therapy.

Leslie: Exactly.

Anne: It didn’t say red flag abuser. You saw inappropriate stuff on his phone, red flag, maybe he’s an addict. It didn’t say red flag abuser,

Leslie: Right.

Anne: That’s the other issue, is that women might see the red flags fine. But they don’t know how to process it or define it.

The Dangers Of Couple Therapy In Abuse Situations

Anne: They’re trying to be good, nice people. We know people aren’t perfect. And know that we can’t expect people to be perfect. I don’t think we’re missing the red flags. We just think we’re processing them incorrectly, and most addiction or regular therapy would say work on communication, connect with them.

You know, there’s so much misinformation in an abuse scenario, which at BTR.ORG we see exploitative material use as abusive, right? So in an abusive scenario, they should never be doing couple therapy ever, ever, ever. So in my opinion, CSATs who do couple therapy are clinically negligent.

Leslie: I agree.

Anne: Because you’ve got an abuser, and you should not be doing couple therapy with an abuser. So it’s like an oxymoron, but they don’t see it that way because they don’t see it as abuse. So let’s actually focus on that for just a minute. Your original therapist that told you. Hey, this is abuse. And then you went to a CSAT. Talk about what happened.

How did he use that manufactured relational tether at that point? Maybe you went home and said, hey, she said you were abusive or something. Or maybe you didn’t, but how did he reel you back in? To go down the addiction recovery route? Talk about your thought process or how he manipulated you after that.

Leslie: You probably know the whole Gottman thing about marital therapy. So our initial therapist would use Gottman stuff with us.

Anne: When we talk about Gottman, this is classic couple therapy stuff that does not account for abuse.

Reactive Abuse Misconception

Leslie: Exactly, exactly he would use the tools that we would get in therapy as weapons against me. And he would say, “But this is what the counselor said, and you’re not doing this, and you’re not doing that. I’m trying to take a break.”

But it would always be the get in your face, that whole reactive abuse.

Anne: So we also don’t use the word reactive abuse here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. The reason I want to pause there is that people have said this, they say something. And then you react, maybe you yell or I don’t know, whatever, right?

Leslie: Uncharacteristic, yes.

Anne: And at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we just see that as trying to defend yourself.

Leslie: Right.

Anne: That’s it. You’re not abusing them reactively or anything like that.

You are trying to defend yourself, and that’s it. I do not want victims labeled as also abusers. In trying to defend themselves from abuse, that’s what the abuser wants. What do emotional abusers want to see it as like, well, we both have problems and we’re both unhealthy. When it needs to be viewed as you’ve got an abuser. And then you have a victim trying to survive.

Leslie: And that’s exactly what I was trying to do. And he would use all those therapy things as weapons back against me. I thought I was going crazy so many times. You feel like you are spinning in circles, you’re hopeless, you get to a point where you just don’t know where to turn. You don’t know what to do anymore.

What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims? Escaping The Fog Of Manipulation

Anne: So my guess is he’s escalating at this point because he’s losing control. When he’s in treatment, he knows that you have the time and space to clear out the fog. They can’t manipulate you when they’re not in constant contact with you, right? So my guess is that he’s freaking out at this point. He’s not into the treatment at all, but he’s trying to act like he is to groom you, but realizing you have space.

So at this point where you have space. You’re finally able to get your wits about you. Because so many women are trying to sort it out, while still being manipulated and lied to daily. And they’re still deep in the fog. So talk about how that space helped you see clearly.

Leslie: The space was key. It probably took me a good six weeks before I finally started to see things as they were. And the reactions he would have when we would have interactions. We had been separated for three months, and we weren’t doing any couple of counseling. He ended up getting fired from work for inappropriateness. But he did get his job back, but right then is when he was going to go away for treatment.

The day after he left for treatment, I came home that night. The following night, all three of my kids were at my house. And my kids are grown, they’re adults. And I thought, okay, what is going on? This was not a planned family thing. My daughter lives three hours away. Like, why is she here?

Family Intervention & Legal Steps

Leslie: So when I walked in, I said, what is going on? And apparently one of my children found out that he was fired for inappropriate things. And found out he had been stalking younger women. I had already spoke with an attorney before, but it was the following day that I ended up going through and filing while he was away at treatment.

Anne: One of the things that I recommend victims don’t do, which is crazy hard to do. I find that all of us needed to do this. I wish there was some way to circumvent it, but I’m not sure if there is. When you find out about the abuse or some behaviors, our natural reaction is to tell the abuser this, right?

Leslie: Right.

Anne: To say, “Hey, I just found out I have an STD. What happened?” Or, “Hey, I just found pornography on your phone.”

I wish that emotional abuse victims would instead of talking to the abuser and trying to help him see the situation. That they would take steps back and get to safety. Because every time we confront the abuser or try to like, help him understand the situation, we just get more abused. Similarly, you are more abused through all the therapy because he started weaponizing all the therapy language.

Once this happened and you contacted a lawyer, did you try to talk to him about what had happened or anything after that? And did you have that experience where in trying to say, hey, look, I’m going to get divorced? Did that set you up for more abuse?

Leslie: It did in a certain aspect, but we were not living together at the time. So I still could keep that.

Legal Battles & Postnuptial Agreements

Leslie: Before he left for treatment, I had enough wits about me that I contacted an attorney prior and had a postnuptial agreement drawn up. I made him sign that if he wanted to stay married or “save the marriage”. That he needed to sign it. He did sign it. And that was my only saving grace, because it basically said, “You leave with what you came with. I leave with what I came with. You’re not entitled to any spousal support X, Y, and Z.”

And that was the only thing I can say that I could have my wits about me, so that I could walk away and not get totally. For lack of better words, screwed over in the end.

Anne: This is what you have to do if you have a narcissistic husband. So the post nup goes well, you win by default, which is awesome. He doesn’t get an attorney, and that is amazing. That doesn’t always happen when fighting a narcissist for custody. Sometimes they use legal abuse and drag somebody through legal things for years. So that was a miracle. Good, I’m so happy that happened for you. But you have had to actually take him to court.

Leslie: He has neglected to take me off his house, so I’m still financially liable for the mortgage on his house. He is dragging that out. I have done everything in the post nup that I was supposed to do. Everything was taken out of his name, which was supposed to be. I have sold the house we had together. So his name’s off that. I have my own new house. He owes me approximately 30ish thousand dollars for things he took out of my accounts. He just kept dragging it out.

What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims? Preparing for Legal Warfare

Leslie: He wouldn’t answer emails for weeks at a time. I didn’t want to incur any more legal costs. I kept trying to think, okay, this is going to resolve. He’s going to get his act together, dah, dah, dah. It didn’t happen. About a month ago, I finally contacted my attorney back. I said, okay, he still doesn’t have my name off the house, and he still owes me this money. What are we going to do?

Leslie: And he’s like, okay, are you ready to play by my rules? I said, I said, yes. He goes, because if we play by my rules, he’s not going to like it. And I go, I’m just done dealing with him. So we go back to court on June 6th. They will actually hold him in contempt of court times two, one for non-payment of what should have been paid. Which he hasn’t paid for a year and a half.

And the second is, is they’re going to make him list his house for sale. And he will only have 15 days to get it listed. This house was always a bane of our existence, because it was always his. He would never sell it. So the fact that they’re going to try to make him sell is a little disconcerting on my part. Just because I know this will put him over the edge. But when you don’t do what you’re supposed to do in the beginning, and you act like an idiot, then this is the consequences.

Anne: Yeah. Because you don’t share kids with him.

The Importance Of Boundaries

Anne: Have you blocked him on your phone?

Leslie: He’s blocked on my phone, he’s blocked on social media. I’ve blocked all family, any friends that were mutual friends that weren’t my friends prior to us getting together. They have all been taken off all my social media.

Anne: So you’re prepared.

Leslie: Yes.

Anne: Yeah. It’s going to be all out war for him, and he’s going to want to drag it out forever. And one of the things to think about is telling your attorney to minimize legal costs as much as possible. Because he’s going to want to drag this out for years.

Leslie: And the nice thing is in the postnuptial agreement, it specifically states that if we have to go back to court for one of us not complying with the postnuptial, that person must pay all legal court costs for both parties.

Anne: That is awesome. And they’ll have to take that out?

Leslie: Yes.

Anne: Of the house he sells.

Leslie: Yes, yes.

Anne: So you’ll have the money. Ah, that’s great. Well, I hope it goes well, because sometimes, not sometimes, all the time, most of the time, these court things go really haywire. So you think, Oh, I’m all prepared and everything looks good. And then it hits and it does not go the way you want. I hope that that happens for you. It seems like you’re well prepared.

Warning For Listeners About Abusers In Court

Anne: But for our listeners out there, I want to give everybody a nice healthy, sad, horrific warning. That no matter how well prepared you are, they are so skilled at manipulation, lies, and throw all kinds of crazy things your way. And even when you think, okay, I know what the worst case scenario is. And I’m okay with the worst case scenario. It can even be worse than that.

Emotional abusers are tricky in court to their victims, and the courts don’t understand it. So I hope things go well, and it sounds like they will, but I just want to do a little warning for my listeners.

Leslie: I agree with that, because I feel that it’s a toss up either way. The judge can go either way on it. You know, you think you’ve crossed all your T’s and dotted your I’s, but you know, when push comes to shove and he gives his sob story or whatever he decides to do, who knows what’s going to happen. Everybody says, you should just write right off that money, you’re never going to see it. Just let it go, move on.

And I’m like, no, he’s taken enough of my life from me. Like, why would I give him the satisfaction of giving him another 30, 000? I don’t have to deal with it. My attorney is dealing with it. It’s kind of more principle to me that no, you will not continue to abuse and take and not have consequences.

Anne: Especially because you share that house. Getting your name off that house is super important. So I have a theory that successful women have a harder time getting out of abuse.

What Do Emotional Abusers Look For In Their Victims? The Power of Sharing Your Story

Anne: And it’s because people don’t perceive them as a victim, so it’s harder to get help. What do you think about that?

Leslie: I think it’s pretty true. I’ve become much more outspoken for survivors of abuse. And it actually was my own medical doctor when I was sitting there sobbing to her, telling my story to her. She was just so taken aback. She said, “You could still do good work. I know you want to do your medical relief work again.”

And she goes, “But you know, the biggest work you could do is get your story out there.” She said, “Because there are so many people who don’t have the resources you had. Or don’t know where to turn or think just because they’re not successful. This is why it happened to them.”

No, it happens to anyone, anyone. Emotional abusers look for victims who they can exploit. It can happen to anyone. And it’s so devastating when you are in the thick of it. It is so hard. And I say this all the time, stay your course. You will get there today. It might not seem like it tomorrow. It might not seem like it.

And I will tell you, even probably six months ago, I was not the person I am today. And I would not have been as positive even six months ago, as I am today, just by staying my course and not deviating from my own personal growth and what I needed to do for me. I stopped focusing on us and the marriage and started focusing on me.

Anne: In some ways, your resources worked against you because you could pay for couple therapy, you can pay for CSATs, you can go that direction.

The Right Resources Matter & Children As The Abuser’s Leverage

Anne: When people say there are lots of resources available, it’s important for me to point out the right resources matter.

Leslie: Right, exactly.

Anne: You can waste so much money on addiction recovery. You can waste so much time doing that. Getting the abuse resources is the most important thing, and sticking with that course. The other thing I wanna say is that you’re doing so well right now. And I’m so happy for you, is that you do not share children with this man.

Leslie: Yes.

Anne: And so you can get completely away, right? Even if his court case doesn’t go great and you lose $30, 000. That’s a bummer, but his name will get off the house. Many listeners to this podcast, myself included, are forced by the court system to continue to interact with our abuser. Who is also psychologically and emotionally abusing our children.

And this is for years and years. What happened at the end of the Netflix show The Maid, exactly. The end was like, oh, finally she could get out. And I think society wants us to think that I think society is like, if you keep putting one foot in front of the other, you will get out eventually.

And the harsh. awful terror is that the court system is actually not helpful. We are still forced to interact because we share kids. The Maid could have ended completely differently, where he didn’t let her go, right? And I would say that’s the majority of what women are experiencing. So that had a happy ending, but that happy ending is rare.

The Harsh Reality Of Court Systems

Anne: So for those who don’t share children, this could be your story.

Leslie: Right.

Anne: And I want to provide hope for you that you can move on. It is there. It is waiting for you. And you can have a complete and total separation from those injuries. And then for those who share children, and you’re facing that every day.

For me, even up until probably a year ago, stories like yours, I was happy for you. But so triggered and mad for me.

Leslie: Yeah.

Anne: But like, nobody would protect me. Then in fact, the court system supposed to protect victims was actually not the domestic violence shelter and everything. They’re like, get out, get out and get out, but you can’t get out.

You’re stuck. And so I was always like continually mad. I have now used a type of strategic communication to be in a better place that isn’t dependent on court. Using this type of strategic communication, I was able to deliver myself and my kids completely. So they don’t go with him hardly at all anymore.

You can find those strategies in The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop.

Leslie: And I do feel for the people who have children, and I will say, I am so grateful that I did not have children with him. I can so see where that is such a struggle. But I believe there are ways of communication and learning how to respect yourself enough to keep your own boundaries with them. And I think that was my biggest thing. I always lacked boundaries in many areas, so the biggest thing was teaching myself boundaries.

Strategies for dealing with Emotional Abusers

Leslie: Boundaries with my own kids. Boundaries with, strangers, with people. The biggest takeaway is learning how to deal with that part of it.

Anne: It’s a skill we all need to learn. This is not a, like, high school class they offer, so it’s important. What do emotional abusers look for in their victims? We talked a little bit about targeting, being used, grooming, the manufactured relational tether. You learned a lot through this about how you were never in a relationship. But that you were targeted.

If you could go back in time. And talk to yourself before meeting him, and teach you some of the things you never wanted to learn, that you never knew you needed to know. What would you tell yourself?

Leslie: I would tell myself to one, respect myself enough to listen to my inner self and my inner gut feelings. I think that is the biggest thing emotional abusers target is getting you to start doubting yourself. I always prided myself on having a wonderful, amazing ability to have that inner gut feeling as many medical professionals do.

That’s how we guide our practice a lot of the time, but that was used against me, because once he stopped my ability to trust my own gut. That is where I feel he was able to worm himself in and keep me off balance. I would say to myself trust your gut. Actions speak louder than words.

I remember saying your actions are not matching your words early in our relationship. And if I had just kept true to myself in that statement, his actions showed me exactly who he was, not the words. I think that would have been a totally different outcome.

The Trap Of Trying To Resolve With Abusers

Anne: It’s interesting, so when we recognize that his actions are inconsistent with his words. Because we perceive them as a partner. The first thing we want to do is talk to them about our feelings. That is where they keep us trapped. They would like us to think it’s a partnership, because in a partnership, that’s what you would do. You would try to resolve it, to talk to them about our observations.

So, as we say, “Hey, I noticed your actions don’t sync up with your words”. Then they can talk more and groom more. Like, okay, well she noticed that. So now I’m going to try this other tactic, or now I’m going to lie better. Unfortunately, with an abuser, all they hear is, I need to deceive better, manipulate better, and groom better.

You can’t determine that unless you have those conversations. So giving grace to all the victims who tried to talk to their abuser, only to be abused more. If you’re in that boat now, and you’re listening to this. Let’s pretend that on this podcast you have heard something and you’re like, this is how he is. An aha light bulb has gone off in your head. I would encourage you, do not go to your abuser and tell him about it. Do not go to him and say, “Oh, you have to listen to this podcast.”

Before you decide to do that, please enroll in The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop. At least learn how to communicate strategically with them before you make a decision about that.

The Importance Of Using Strategy

Anne: If you enroll in Living Free and learn the strategies, and then you decide, you know what, I’m still going to talk to him. Then at least you’ll be making a decision, having all the information you need to make that decision.

Leslie: I can’t tell you how many times I would confront him immediately on something. And afterwards, I would say to myself. Why didn’t you just stay quiet? Why didn’t you just continue to gather your “evidence” to realize what was going on? But as soon as I found something or something would happen, it would immediately come out of my mouth. That is the biggest thing. What you just said.

Don’t confront them like they’re using all your words against you, and that is the hardest thing to do.

Anne: For that reason, BTR group sessions are useful, because you need to share that it’s inside you, and it will come out. BTR.ORG Group Sessions are the perfect place, or Individual Sessions with our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coaches are the perfect place. Emotional abusers look for wonderful women who they can use.

Leslie: And I so appreciate everything Betrayal Trauma Recovery does to help women in these situations, because it seems so hopeless. I just want to encourage everyone that one day there is a light. There is. Just keep looking for it.

Anne: Thank you so much, Leslie.

If you searched “is watching inappropriate media cheating” you’re probably looking for clarity. Because for a woman who have just discovered what her husband has been secretly doing with his time, it feels like a betrayal because it is. It’s a betrayal if her husband is sharing his energy, attention, and loyalty with other women (thousands of them online). This episode is a two-part conversation with experts from the National Center on Sexual Exploitation.

This article answers the question: is watching inappropriate media cheating? But it also answers the question underneath it: “Why does my husband’s use of inappropriate media hurt me so much… even apparently all men do it.”

Quick answer: Is watching inappropriate media cheating?

In marriage, yes. Because it meets the basic definition of cheating: He is engaging in sexual behavior outside the marriage, directed toward other people, often in secret, while withholding truth from his wife and expecting ongoing access to her trust, body, and partnership.

And your gut response to think that he’s cheating is logical. In fact, it’s how most women feel. I’ve interviewed over 200 women who told me how terrible it felt to find out about all his lies, including his lies about how he’s been spending his time online. Over the last almost two decades, my team has helped over 8,000 women thrive after betrayal. So here’s what we know:

Is watching inappropriate media cheating? yes. here’s Why

Below is the “wife-brain” list, the one that finally puts words to what you already know.

1) It’s Intimate access to other women

If your husband is getting stimulation from other women’s bodies, watching them, searching them, he’s directing intimate attention outside the marriage. He may argue “it’s not real.”

But your marriage is real. Your nervous system knows what it means when the man you married is aroused by other women.

2) It’s almost always built on secrecy and secrecy is betrayal

I interviewed Christen Price, an attorney at The NCOSE and we talked about how the strongest tactic of coercive control is lying to maintain power and a preferred narrative.

For many wives asking “is watching inappropriate media cheating”, their husband’s use of innappropriate media comes with:

• hidden accounts
• secret apps
• erased histories
• minimized language (“it was just a little”)
• anger or mockery when confronted

That isn’t “privacy.” That’s deception, which is an obvious marker of cheating.

3) It removes your informed consent inside the marriage

This is the piece many women can’t explain, so they blame themselves.

But here’s what’s really going on. Women generally consent to a marriage with a certain set of sexual boundaries they expect both partners share.
If he’s not staying inside those boundaries (but lying about it), she’s not able to consent, either to the relationship itself or to intimacy in the relationship.

She’s being kept in the dark so he can keep living a double life. Because he wants to keep the benefits of the relationship, without staying within the boundaries. That’s not partnership. That’s exploitation.

4) It’s not “just content.” It’s Actually Evidence of Abuse

in my interview, Christen defines image-based sexual abuse (IBSA) as the creation, threat, sharing, or use of sexual images/videos without consent or for exploitation.

And then she lists what falls under that umbrella:

• sextortion
• nonconsensual sharing (often called “revenge porn”)
• hidden-camera recordings (locker rooms, showers, bedrooms, hotel rooms)
• “upskirting/downblousing”
• AI-generated or manipulated sexual images made from real photos
• harassment using sexual content

Here’s the gut-punch for wives: Her husband is watching other women being abused.

So when a husband says, “I would never hurt anyone,” the reality is watching inappropriate media means he’s supporting an industry that is based on the abuse of women.

5) It’s relational infidelity—he’s bonding Sexually outside the marriage

Even when there’s no emotional “relationship” with a specific person, there’s still a pattern: He goes to a screen for arousal and release.

And you—the real wife—are left with:

• distance
• disconnection
• irritation
• sexual pressure
• “Why do I feel like I’m competing with strangers?”

If he is pouring his sexual energy elsewhere, that’s infidelity.

6) It often comes with gaslighting: “You’re the problem”

Of course a husband using inappropriate media wants to maintain the narrative “I’m a good guy.” That’s why he lies about it.

So when women are hurt by these lies, she gets labeled:

• insecure
• controlling
• prudish
• too sensitive
• the reason he does it

That type of gaslighting is emotional abuse. To learn more and to see if you’re experiencing this type of emotional abuse, take my free emotional abuse test.

7) It puts wives at real risk, sometimes criminal risk

In helping women face this type of betrayal for almost two decades, I’ve heard some chillingly specific stories of husbands secretly recording wives in showers or during sex and posting it for financial gain. This is nonconsensual recording and distribution. Even if you’re husband isn’t doing this, if he’s watching it, that’s what motivating other men to harm their wives or girlfriends.

8) It Teaches Men entitlement, not intimacy

“Everyone does it” isn’t a moral defense If something is common, that doesn’t make it healthy. A lot of harmful behavior is common. That’s why Melea describes a system where industries resist regulation: they don’t want their profits to decrease. When his consumption is easy, private, and constant, it shapes expectations:

• women exist for viewing
• arousal should be instant
• bodies are commodities

Wives often experience the downstream effects as:

• feeling compared
• increased sexual pressure
• decreased empathy
• decreased emotional presence
• less willingness to repair

And yes, most wives call that cheating because he’s breaking his vows in daily form.

9) It impacts kids—directly and indirectly

Another board member at The National Center on Sexual Exploitation, Melea Stevens’ talks about a “filter bill”, which creates default safety settings on phones/tablets.

Even if your husband swears “it’s private,” it rarely stays private in a household full of devices, shared Wi-Fi, curious kids, and normalized secrecy.

And so there’s the deeper betrayal many moms feel: He’s not just risking his marriage. He’s risking the emotional safety of the home your children live in.

Most women searching “is watching inappropriate media cheating” Don’t Know To Search: “is It exploitation”

They’re searching because they feel betrayed, but they don’t realize what their husband is actually involved with.

• It’s not just cheating, he’s cheating by participating in the real exploitation of women and girls.
• The same mindset that says “it doesn’t hurt anyone” is the mindset that allows harm to be dismissed, mislabeled, or hidden.

So—is watching inappropriate media cheating?

If your husband is consuming it, hiding it, minimizing it, and expecting you to live inside the lie? Yes, it’s cheating, but it’s actually so much more. Christen Price and Melea Stevens from the National Center on Sexual Exploitation are on the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to clearly articulate why watching it is so harmful to women.

Transcript: Is Watching inappropriate media Cheating? Here’s What You Need To Know

Anne: I have Christen Price and Melea Stevens on today’s episode. Christen serves as Senior Legal Counsel for the National Center on Exploitation Law Center.

She engages in legal advocacy to end impunity for all forms of sexual exploitation. In her role at NCOSE Christen works to influence courts and legislatures. Toward protecting human dignity and equality on behalf of exploitation survivors, as well as resources to stop human trafficking. Through legislative advocacy, litigation, and support for other attorneys. Particularly in terms of trafficking, prostitution, child abuse, and image based abuse.

Malea is on the board of the National Center for Exploitation.

Welcome Christen.

Christen: Thank you so much for having me.

Anne: I met Christen in person a while back. She impressed me with her passion for protecting victims. I want to jump straight into talking about image-based abuse. What is image based abuse?

Forms of Image-Based Abuse

Christen: Image based abuse is a broad term. That includes a wide range of harmful experiences involving the weaponization of explicit images or videos. IBSA involves creating, threatening to share, sharing, or using recordings without the consent of the person in them or for exploitation purposes.

So sometimes people call one form of this revenge posting of intimate media, but at NCOSE we try to avoid this term because it implies that the person victimized by it did something wrong to the perpetrator, and that this is some kind of punishment payback. But the reality is that men do this to women for any reason or for absolutely no reason at all.

Anne: Right! I’ve spoken to human trafficking survivors who share their experiences with this. When you say men do this to women. This podcast is specifically for women, victims of exploitation perpetrated by men. And so all of our listeners are women. Well, my intent is to help women.We do have some men listeners, but when you say that, does it ever happen the other way around?

Christen: It definitely happens the other way around. And also women can victimize other women, men can victimize other men. But the victims are disproportionately women, and the perpetrators are disproportionately men. And I think the figures vary somewhat.

In a 2017 US survey conducted with 3, 000 or so participants, one in eight people were targets of distribution. Or threat of distribution of intimate images without consent. Women were roughly twice as likely to be targets of this abuse. Compared to the men in that particular survey.

News Highlights

Christen: But there was another survey by the Cyber Civil Rights Initiative. And in their survey, over 90 percent of the victims were women, mostly between 18 and 30 years old. So there’s some variation there, of course. That IBSA affects women and girls disproportionately isn’t in dispute.

Anne: Because I advocate for women, I appreciate those statistics. And letting people know that this is a woman’s health issue. It’s important to women, especially my listeners. Are there news stories that highlight this issue?

Christen: So there is one. It’s significant because it shows the level of impunity people at least think they have when they perpetrate this. They arrested the mayor of a town in Maryland, called Cambridge, late last year. It’s maybe an hour and a half outside of DC where I am. They charged him with 50 counts of non consensual distribution.

The CEO and the COO of —-hub, or MindGeek, the company that controls it, have resigned. You know, this is in the wake of years of reporting, but especially over the last two years. Of how their flagship site facilitates and profits from image-based abuse in the United States. In all of its various forms.

Anne: When Christen says image based abuse, what I want you to think in your mind is pornography. This is what we are talking about. So husbands who are constantly on their phone looking at this stuff. Would you say all of it, or most of it, is image based abuse? For our listeners who are so traumatized by their husband’s use?

Image-Based Abuse Is Happening

Christen: So one thing that might be helpful would be to go down the list of the different things that fall under this category. And then you realize, wow, this is what is on sites and drives traffic to these sites. The whole industry, because it is an industry, is a profitable enterprise to exploit other people in this way. This obviously has implications, even for people who don’t end up portrayed on the websites.

There’s a sense that exploitative materials use is abusive to people in general, especially women and girls. Because it’s incompatible with their full equality in society. If this is a way they can be portrayed with impunity. It has implications for everyone.

Christen: But just to go down the list of the different things that fall under image based abuse (IBSA). One is sextortion, which uses inappropriate images or materials that the perpetrator blackmails the victim. Or coerces them to produce increasingly inappropriate content. So that in exchange, the initial content is not released. So that’s sextortion.

Then, this is the one I think most people think of when they hear the term image based abuse. Non-consensual sharing of images. Which is sometimes accompanied by doxxing, which is you share the content. But then you add the person’s name, their address, or other identifying or locating information.

Anne: Many women in our community have had their husbands secretly video them in the shower or while they were in their bedroom. This kind of behavior is also what marital coercion is. They did not know. And then he posts that online, and other people watch it as “pornography.” Not knowing that they’re actually viewing abuse. That happens frequently to women in our community.

Non-Consensual Recordings & Harassment

Christen: Yeah, that’s actually the next one I was going to say, which is non-consensual collecting. Swapping and posting of these types of images in groups or in third party platforms. As you noted, if IBSA is used, absolutely. I mean, they didn’t have consent to take the image, let alone to distribute it. Non-consensual recordings of images or videos of other types of activities, they’re not doing anything intimate.

They expect they’re in a private context, like showering in the gym or even in their home or hotel room. So restrooms or locker rooms people put surveillance cameras. We call that downblousing or upskirting. Another form it takes is harassment or assault in virtual or augmented reality. So harassment through direct messaging or assault of somebody’s avatar. Like in a virtual context.

https://youtube.com/shorts/mHgIHT2Dtrw

Sending unsolicited material, also called cyber flashing. Identity theft, where people take someone’s images to make artificial or photoshopped videos. It’s intended to portray them as though they’re really in it. We call that cheap fake or deep fake. And then pressuring or harassing someone to self generate or share inappropriate images.

So it’s quite a variety of offenses that fall under this category. And much of it makes its way onto massive public sites.

The Abusive Nature Of Online Exploitative Material

Anne: I would say the average user has no idea that it is abusive. In fact, when you educate them about it, they dismiss it. They’re like, whatever. In our experience, listeners of this podcast, you’re hurting our family and marriage. You’re also just flat out watching abuse, and it’s like, no, that’s not how it is.

Christen: Do you think people who say that read the tags for the material they’re watching? Because sometimes they tagg it as spycam or locker room or something like that. There’ll be clear indications that it’s not consensual. I’m not saying that’s always the case. But that’s a thing that they to drive traffic. They categorize things.

Anne: What I’m saying is they’re like, yeah, it’s a spy cam, but she doesn’t know. And she doesn’t even know it’s online. So why is it hurting her? One thing I have learned about abusers is they do not want to admit they are abusive. They don’t want to call it abuse. They want to call it anything else, because they want to continue to justify their behavior.

People call this stuff out there spy cam material, not abusive spy cam material. It’s disconnected. In fact, this was fascinating. I talked to a convicted offender. He was like, wow, his mind was blown. He never thought of himself as an abuser, even though he was a convicted offender.

Christen: Wow.

Anne: How prevalent is image based abuse, IBSA and who is the most affected by it?

Is Watching inappropriate media cheating? yes, and it’s Actually So Much More

Christen: It’s impossible to know what percentage of it falls under this, which is one of the big dangers. Because someone taggs it in a certain way. But it’s not necessarily going to be apparent that someone is watching abusive content. Once you put together the fact that this includes CSAM Which is rife on the internet.

Anne: When you say CSAM. Our community commonly refers to that for our listeners who don’t know, as CSCAM. I appreciate that NCOSE and many advocates are trying to change that language.

Christen: No, thanks for saying that. I meant to include that. It is still called in the law in most places. So that’s an important distinction.

It includes extremely violent and dangerous content. Which is pretty obviously harmful, regardless of whether they obtained consent. It includes the type of spy cam and other types of surreptitious recording or non consensually distributed content. So all that is abusive. All of that is exploitive, most of it is illegal in many jurisdictions. Much of what seems to drive traffic to some of these sites is this type of content.

A subreddit on Reddit, I think it’s called wife pic, has 250, 000 members. The abuse is prevalent and rampant. It’s a massive risk. Anyone who consumes it chooses to consume someone’s abuse. A Human Being Is Always Objectified

Image Based Exploitation Is Abusive

Anne: We take the stance at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, people disagree with me, and I don’t care. That all use is abusive, period. It’s abusive to someone, somehow. Someone’s coerced, lied to, manipulated and harmed. That is our stance. So when you’re talking specifically about image based abuse. I think you’re also specifically talking about criminal things. People are arrested for those things.

Christen: Yes, or at least sued, in some cases.

Anne: With our listeners, the abuse they’re experiencing, the emotional and psychological abuse, is not a “crime.” So they have a difficult time figuring out how to get help. But it is good for them to know that anyone consuming this type of material. Or producing it will have some danger to you.

Christen: Yes, there’s no exploitative material in which a human being is not objectified. That’s always present. So much of it is extremely violent and degrading, especially to women. Thinking it’s unharmful shifts the norms and expectations for all women. It’s like basically a form of propaganda. It conditions women to submit to violence rather than resist it, among other things.

Women and girls are most affected by it, disproportionately. So especially younger women and girls.

Anne: Yeah, here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, even if the wives aren’t the ones filmed, our husbands use continues to affect us. When we think about the victims in image based abuse, and these degrading acts being visible to other people. Where do people generally post them?

IBSA Is Posted Anywhere You Can Post

Christen: They’re posted anywhere you can post things. Google will index searches for this type of content. I mean, it is everywhere. Some sites specifically devote themselves to sharing non-consensually distributed content. Really all over chat groups and texts.

Anne: It’s alarming to think about.

Christen: It really is.

Anne: Apps, anywhere you can find anything, you can find it. But I would say the public is not. When you’re trying to explain to people why exfoliative material is abusive, what arguments have you found useful?

Christen: Thinking about how it works as a tactic, and also thinking about the impact, I make it clear that’s the right category for it. Taking the standard definition of abuse, it’s typically a set of tactics. Usually it’s systematic or calculated. That one person uses to gain and maintain coercive control over another.

And it can be physical, emotional, financial or spiritual. Image based abuse fits squarely within that. It’s ultimately about maintaining coercive control over another person. Men have posted things because women wouldn’t go out with them, or because they broke up with them. And when we look at what effect it has on the victims, that also very much tracks with what we understand abuse to be.

Anne: Coercive control is the main theme. When it comes to the husbands. They’re doing the same thing, but it’s in a different way. So they’re using coercive control to manipulate, lie, to gaslight to hide their use. So they’re lying to them about their whereabouts.

Exploitative Online Imags Are Abusive: Lies & Hipocracy

Anne: They’re lying about their use of time or why they’re angry about something. Or they’re trying to gaslight to make sure their wife doesn’t know the types of things they’re doing. Because they want their wife to live in a different reality. But he wants his wife to think he’s a good guy.

That he’s a churchgoer, that he’s an upstanding member of society. So it’s that same coercive control to maintain the narrative. I’m a good guy. I’m a good husband. You, wife, you’ve got some problems. And if you would cook better, or if you would be more respectful of me, or if you would appreciate my job more. Then maybe our marriage would be good.

That gaslighting happens all the time. And that is why I want to hit home to the addiction recovery community. Or other communities that these men are abusers. They’re not just users. They are abusive to their wives. And it’s important for people to understand. That we’re talking about a specific type of trauma to the women being filmed.

Anne: Why is it so important to recognize that this is trauma? And people actually document it and then post it?

Christen: Yes, I think it’s exactly what you just said. Their trauma is posted. If I were to sum it up, I would say probably for the three reasons that it’s a really prevalent form of trauma.

Trauma & Its Manifestations

Christen: Going back to the statistics from earlier, it’s extremely destructive. People usually commit it with impunity. Impunity just means you’re getting away with it. You’re getting away with the thing in a way that is so clear and obvious, you have no reason to stop doing it. Other people watching what’s happening don’t have a reason to not do the same thing themselves.

Anne: Oh, this is happening in people’s families too. It’s amazing, the parallels between the two, the impunity with the divorce, or they’re still getting child custody.

Christen: Some ways the trauma manifests for the people depicted include high levels of anxiety, PTSD, depression, shame and humiliation, loss of trust and agency.

The risk of suicide is very, very high. Some 51 percent of people responding to one survey said they had contemplated suicide due to their experience with image based abuse. It’s also important to note that this is a form of abuse that never ends. Someone else can always share or upload the images. It may never fully go away.

It’s an abusive situation, a person may never fully exit. Survivors shared with us that their reputations are completely lost. They’ve lost jobs or had to leave jobs because of the level of harassment directed at them. When people realized it was them in the videos. They’re constantly anxious in social situations, wondering if someone has seen the content.

They’ve had family and other relationships destroyed because of this, so it, it really manifests. Like other forms of trauma.

Anne: The federal government passed a law against revenge —ography.

Federal Law Against Revenge Material

Anne: Can you tell us about the law?

Christen: It provides victims with the right to sue for non-consensually distributed content. If the person who disclosed it knew or recklessly disregarded the depicted person’s lack of consent. So when it allows people to sue for damages, it allows them to potentially get a temporary restraining order. Or an injunction, basically ordering the perpetrator to stop displaying or disclosing the image.

There are some exceptions that I think are a bit concerning about who can bring an action under this law. So basically, there’s an exception called matters of public concern or interest. In my view, it is vague and appears to exclude any possible cause of action if something is deemed to fall within that category. And my perspective on that is famous or well known women shouldn’t be public property either.

It doesn’t address the rights of a person if someone is not well known. There was no public interest in appearing in content alongside someone who was. That’s one exception that raises a flag for me. And then there’s another exception related to commercial content.

Basically, it means content with people who appear under 30 if force does not produce it, fraud, misrepresentation, or coercion. They would accept that kind of content. In some ways, it means that the websites most likely to be exempt are ones most likely to have people under 30 exploiting younger people.

It also exempts the websites and people likely to profit from the display of the content. So if someone ran his own website with younger looking people. He couldn’t be sued by his wife or ex girlfriend for non-consensually posting her images on it. As long as she isn’t coerced to make the video.

Image Based Exploitation Use Is Abusive: The Issue of Consent

Christen: To me, these are exceptions that are worrisome, and ultimately I think make the law incomplete. But I think it can be useful for some victims to have legal recourse.

Anne: When you say consent, that word is just fraught in our community. Because women give their consent to marry, for example. They’re giving their consent to be in a relationship, but that doesn’t mean they give their consent to be abused. When you say, yeah, they consented to participate. But they’re not consenting to be manipulated or gaslit. This law is a he said, she said. Is the consent issue clear when it comes to this law? Or does it get caught in the same kind of rape/domestic violence problems? Where you can’t ever prove it.

Christen: It’s a good question. It’s hard to say right now, because no one has tried to use the law yet. I think a lot depends on how judges interpret it, and how it’s actually used. This type of law is not covered in the federal trafficking law, which covers it. The standard for whether something meets the definition of trafficking is whether it features a minor? Or was it produced through force, fraud, or coercion?

So in a sense, consent is arguably not a defense if people mean agreement. People can coerce you into agreeing to something. You can be deceived into agreeing to something. If either of those two things are present, the crime is still committed. So I think it remains to be seen if this specific law will take a similar view.

Legal Recourse & Coercion

Christen: It seems to anticipate that people may produce content through coercion and deception. That’s included in the law. It wouldn’t necessarily let you sue a commercial website, but it would let you sue the person who posted it. So they seem to anticipate coercion as possible in this context, but I think a lot will depend on how things end up being interpreted.

Anne: We’ve spent a lot of time talking about this. I know some of you listening are victims of this. Like your own husband has posted things of you, or you’re a victim of revenge ___ography. You’re a victim of abuse in this way. Many of you, I personally talked to you, and you have been afraid to press charges. Number one, because you’re not sure if you want a divorce, you’re not sure if things will work out with your husband.

I want to encourage you to do something. The best hope for your husband not to be abusive is to actually account for his crime. Even if you think there’s some chance it will work out. I still think if he were truly changed, truly repentant, truly non abusive, he would take accountability for what he’s done.

And so reporting it is an important step. So I know that reporting domestic violence, especially if it is your husband or your boyfriend, is important. It’s a safety issue, so I want to acknowledge that.

Resources For Victims

Anne: At the same time, there are resources available.

Christen: Yes, one of the main resources we recommend is the Cyber Civil Rights Initiative. It’s specifically helpful for victims in the United States. They have a crisis helpline, and the number is (844) 878-2274, and you can talk to a counselor 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. They also have an online removal guide. Which walks people through instructions for how to address content they found on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Tumblr, Google, Snapchat, and other sites.

And then they also have some international resources for people in Australia, Brazil, Israel, Palestine, Pakistan, South Korea, Taiwan, and the United Kingdom. Our main recommendation is definitely to contact them. Listeners are also welcome to contact the NCOSE Law Center. We do have a number of lawsuits addressing image-based abuse. Although at the moment, almost all concern child abuse victims. Adults who were minors when their content was posted.

We have lawsuits against big suppliers

Anne: Many of our listeners actually might be victims and might not know it at all. We are here for you. NCOSE is here for you. And the resources she just talked about are here for you.

If you’re a concerned woman and you want to advocate to make this world safer. You need to check out NCOSE at endsexualexploitation.org.

Advocacy & Public Awareness

Christen: Speaking broadly, there is a market for this kind of content on —-hub and all these other sites. Demand drives markets. So the first thing a regular person can do, especially men and boys, is not consume the abuse. This is a profitable industry. It is driven by the fact that people want to see this stuff.

I would also say if you’re in one of the two states that currently don’t have a law against this type of content. Definitely advocate with your local leaders for such a law. I think there’s a need to educate boys and men and the public about this issue in a way that puts the responsibility for it where it belongs.

I think that in many ways, as a society, the way we talk about assault has changed for the better. We’re not just telling women to watch out or blame them for not fighting back. You know, we recognize that it’s on men not to perpetrate, and I think the same applies with this issue.

We can’t just tell women and girls to watch out or be more careful. We need to teach men and boys not to perpetrate. Part of the importance of this abuse framing is doing that. It’s calling this thing by its right name, calling it by the term that shows how seriously wrong it is. And how seriously abusive to human rights.

The Importance Of Safe Homes

Christen: And I think that’s a big part of what any person can do with any type of gendered violence or abuse. To call the thing by its right name. I think so often men’s violence against women, abuse of women and girls, is disappeared by how we talk about it. Or the fact that we don’t talk about it. So I think that’s a big thing that any person can do.

Anne: I’m reminded of the Jackson Katz quote. “We talk about how many women were raped last year, not how many men raped women.” For our listeners, since they’re not men and boys, the number one thing you can do is get to safety in your own home. The number one thing you can do is learn how to get to safety yourself, and how to ensure your own home is safe. That’s number one.

When your own home is safe, the number two thing you can do if you want to get involved is check out the NCOSE Website. They have many campaigns there. You can get on their email list. I’m on their email list. I love it when I get their emails. Things like, sign this petition or send an email to your Senator. And they give you a template of things that you can do. So at least, that gives you some scaffolding to start making some progress.

If you want to do something, but you don’t know where to start. The NCOSE website, and they have a summit every year, and getting involved that way is a good way to start making change in the world.

Personal Reflections On Abuse

Anne: I want to say for me personally, when I was in my abusive relationship. I was so focused on addiction recovery, I didn’t understand it was abuse. So I went down the wrong road for a while. And I was also involved with NCOSE which was awesome. And I loved it, but I spent a lot of time trying to solve the world’s problems.

Not at that time to actually get to safety myself. And I have found that I am much more effective in making the world safer when my own home is safe. And it’s impossible to make the world safer, so that your home is safe. It’s much easier to make your home safe first, and then help the world, than the other way around. You can actually literally, within a few years, three to six years, actually make your home a safe place. It takes a long time.

It’s hard to learn boundaries. It’s hard to learn these skills, but it is possible. The fight and exploitation that we are all involved in, it’s like a worldwide battle that will take a long time. And so don’t wait for that. Don’t think, okay, well, when, the US passes a law that it’s illegal and my husband can’t watch it anymore, then I’ll be safe.

Please do not wait for that. Get to safety now. There is a peaceful and safe place.

The Systemic Nature Of Abuse

Christen: One final thing from me, it’s just a broader point that I think reflects some of the things we’ve talked about I think the way people often perceive it can follow this pattern. Of the way that the invisibility of various forms of violence and abuse against women is invisible. Whether the abuser is a pimp, a husband, a boss, or a film producer.

Violence and abuse are not seen as political, systemic, as an attack against women as a class. And I think it’s important that we identify this as the sort of systemic thing that it is. Because it’s incompatible with gender equality in a society.

Anne: It is systemic, because when our listeners try to get out, they go to a therapist, they go to clergy, and they get like, oh, it’s a communication issue, or, oh, you’re just not having it enough. They don’t get, oh, he’s abusive. I went to therapy for seven years with an emotional and psychological abuser who also coerced me. I did addiction recovery for seven years. No one told me I was abused. It is insane.

I go to a church with an on the books doctrine and policy that no abuse will be tolerated. And all my clergy were like, oh, he’s such a good guy. They didn’t know it was abuse. I didn’t know it was abuse. Because of that misunderstanding and not labeling it for what it is. Women are continually harmed. And men continually abuse with impunity. And it is absolutely systemic and dangerous, not just for women, but also for men.

The Need For Healthy Relationships

Anne: Because they can’t have a healthy relationship or have a peaceful, healthy life if they’re abusive. So, the answer for everyone is healthy, non-abusive interactions with other people, and non-exploitative interactions. So thank you for all your work again. I cannot stress enough how important their work is. Please visit their website, endsexualexploitation.org.

Anne: Christen, thank you so much for coming on today’s episode.

Christen: Thank you so much for having me.

Anne: Okay, Melea, you got involved with NCOSE, because you’ve seen young children addicted to online inappropriate material for over 23 years, thanks for talking with me today.

Melea: Thank you for having me

Anne: Melea lives in Alabama. She’s currently working on passing a bill in her state. We’ll also talk about how you can help protect children online in your location. Can you tell us about what’s going on in Alabama right now?

Melea: We worked to pass what we call a filter bill. It’s a bill that would require tablets and smartphones to have the filters defaulted on. One of the names it had was the default to safety bill. We had different names at different points, but a similar bill passed in Utah a few years ago. And we wanted to pass it in Alabama. Several other states are interested in introducing it.

One reason we wanted to promote this bill is that we know 47 percent of young children have their first unwanted early exposure on smartphones and tablets. It’s just a common sense protection to have pre existing filters already on smartphones and tablets defaulted on. Versus putting the burden on caregivers and parents to try to go through 30 some odd steps on many devices to figure out how to activate existing content filters.

Details Of The Filter Bill

Melea: We have Supreme Court precedent that says it is preferable for protections to come at the filter level on devices. We know this bill would be upheld in court. And we’re confident it would be very enforceable. And all it is simply doing is asking that three major companies, Amazon with the Kindle, the Apple products and Google with their products, have smartphones and tablets.

That a software update would happen, which is a very simple fix. We’ve talked to software experts who work closely with device manufacturers. They would just do a very simple update that would allow phones activated in Alabama to have the default on instead of off with the content filter. And it automatically has broad based protections for young children, so they’re less likely to stumble across online inappropriate material at an early age.

People would say kids will find ways to get around it, obviously, but we were talking about very young children who aren’t even thinking about it that stumble upon this content. And it Is very traumatic to them to not understand what they’re looking at and the way it affects their brain. This gives them extra years of innocence, safety, and protection. I had the honor of speaking to different parent groups.

And have spoken to schools and churches in areas where kids don’t have involved parents. And those children, child on child, harmful behavior is rampant in those communities. Parents just hand children devices. They need resources to stop human trafficking and this behavior. No one’s looking for them, and they can become addicted to online inappropriate material and they act out what they see. That’s what children do. They copy what they see.

Challenges & Opposition

Melea: Then there’s a cycle of abuse happening and a cycle of trauma. So I especially think about those children when I think about this bill. We’ve been excited. We had a great response and had 67 bipartisan co sponsors in the House, and it passed through committee with bipartisan support. We got to the Senate, it passed through committee with bipartisan support. There are people working hard to stop human trafficking and help with this effort.

It was poised to be passed through the Senate. But we had one person in the Senate, who refused to allow it on the calendar. It only takes one or two people to set the calendar. They blocked it because a lot of opposition turned up to fight along the way. And that’s been true in every other state. Big tech has been our opposition. And telecommunications companies have also shown up at all our hearings with their lobbyists.

Even though our bill has zero to do with companies like AT&T or Verizon. They’re not held liable. It’s explicitly stated in our bill. They would show up, because unfortunately, big tech and telecommunications companies and the industry will sometimes fight common sense browsing protections for kids. And it’s really sad. But that’s one of the things we dealt with. Unfortunately, this gentleman blocked it. We assume there was pressure from lobbyists and one company in particular.

It’s Not Just Cheating, It’s Exploitation

Anne: They’ll say all kinds of reasons that aren’t real. What’s the reason they don’t want to do it? Is it just simply money, this type of exploitation is sadly about money.

Melea: Money is a big factor. We know that historically, Google, AT& T or Verizon, do they get back general profits from online explicit material?

Melea: They do, and they have. There is potentially a loss of revenue. Big tech hates regulations. They do not want to be restricted in any way, shape, or form. They don’t want to give up an inch. So I think money, power, and resistance to any form of regulation. To me, it’s a safety feature on a on a car or something like requiring that they have proper antilock brakes on a car, something reasonable. And in this case, it’s just a simple software update. All the technology is there.

Anne: I hope this does not sound too political, but I’m a patriot saying, I’m grateful for all the government services we have. We have roads, we have a military, we have things in place to keep us safe. And that’s only something that the government can do, because the government is all of us. So I am so grateful that we have these opportunities to protect us. We need to do that through the government, because nobody’s going to willingly do that.

Although NCOSE has worked well with some companies. So that is exciting. They provide resources to stop human trafficking and are helping this bill to pass.

Resources To Stop Human Trafficking: The Dirty Dozen List

Melea: Absolutely, yeah, there’s opportunity. Companies respond to positive communication and sometimes negative. We have what’s called the dirty dozen list, and name and shame the main promoters of exploitation. We have had tremendous success, because once things are brought to light, it’s been refreshing that several companies have changed their corporate policies and resources to stop trafficking or unwanted exposure to online inappropriate material.

This has been a very tooth and nail fight all along the way. The opposition will say, well, you should just be fighting the online inappropriate material, instead of asking the manufacturers to do this at the device level, which I agree. We are like the National Center on Exploitation, and many of our allies are constantly fighting the industry to make changes there. But I wish our government was stepping up in this issue.

Because the laws on the books on a federal level would prohibit the production and distribution of hardcore online inappropriate material, which is the majority of harmful on the internet. And also our laws prohibit the distribution of all online inappropriate material, whether soft core or hardcore, from our internet. But our department of justice for many years has not been enforcing federal obscenity laws. That leaves us to tackle this issue of illegal content through corporate strategies and legislation.

Through lawsuits, like we have lawsuits against providers that are, we’re winning right now. We’re gutting companies because of lawsuits that we have with survivors. So we’re having to go at it every different angle.

Practical Steps & Community Support

Melea: And to everyday citizens that want to make a difference and make an impact when it comes to stopping and resources to stop trafficking and exploitation in general. At NCOSE, we understand that you’ve got to go upstream. I don’t know if you’ve heard the analogy of seeing people floating down the river drowning. You rush in to try to pull out as many as possible, and you’re struggling to get as many to safety as possible.

And you do this for a long time until you’re exhausted, but you’re not able to get to everyone. Eventually you come to this idea of like, I’ve got to go upstream and figure out who’s throwing people in the river. And so you go upstream and find out there’s someone who’s shoving all these people into the river. And in this case, that’s the industry because today’s mainstream online inappropriate material is highly addictive.

It changes their belief system, gives them permission, giving beliefs about consent and buying. People become objects. It’s creating a world of harm. And we know that if we did not have rampant, hardcore material if it was restricted to adult bookstores. Like you had back in the eighties with soft core material. As bad as that was, if we just lived back in that world, that’s what our laws on the book say.

Resources To Stop Human Trafficking: NCOSE’s Action Center

Melea: Our world should look like when it comes to online inappropriate material in the United States. There should be nothing on the internet, nothing on cable, or satellite TV. Can you imagine how different our world would be if our children could go through their developmental years without exposure to it around every corner? So that’s what we strive for is a shift in cultural expectations.

But then there are also practical things we’re doing to interrupt the cycles of things feeding trafficking. So we’d love for them to come to our website. It’s endsexualexploitation.org. And if you go to the action center, you can immediately get involved in helping us stop human trafficking and winning these victories.

Anne: I recommend NCOSE because so many people are talking about trafficking these days. And I have a really interesting story that is super alarming. So, one of my friends was on an airplane, and she was sitting next to a man, and they started talking about politics. He said, “I’m voting for this person because of his record on trafficking, because he will protect the children.”

Her ears perked up and she was like, oh, really, tell me more about this. He said, yeah, there’s these people are stealing these kids and we’ve got to stop it. And then she said, what do you do for a living? And guess what he did for a living?

Melea: What?

Anne: He owned a strip club.

Melea: Oh my gosh. You’re kidding.

Anne: No, so here’s a man who is an actual literal trafficker. He owns a strip club. And he’s talking about this nameless faceless group of people who’s like kidnapping kids when we know who they are. It’s him.

Getting Involved With NCOSE

Anne: We know who the exploiters are. It’s obvious. Getting involved with NCOSE is so awesome, because it’s clear what’s happening. So that you can say, okay, this particular Senator, he’s the one blocking this bill. We can write to that particular Senator and ensure that this bill gets passed.

So I love that NCOSE clears out all the confusion, because at least this man who owned the strip club loved saying, oh yeah, we got to stop trafficking to distract from the fact that he was a trafficker. We need the resources to stop human trafficking, which NCOSE has.

Melea: Talk about denial and hypocrisy, or else just a good marketing scheme there, yeah.

Anne: That is scary these days. So I love that NCOSE is a very reputable organization that has been around for a long time.

Melea: They do their research, and they are careful about the details before they speak out. That’s one reason I’m hesitant as a spokeswoman for NCOSE. I want to make sure I do my best to accurately present the facts, because they have such a high standard when it comes to what they share and do.

They’re very intentional and I respect that about them and they will correct themselves if there is something that they find out is inaccurate, but they do things with a lot of integrity and they get a lot done with a very small budget and a small group of people.

Anne: Well, that’s the other thing I love about NCOSE.

NCOSE’s Credibility & Integrity

Anne: Because so many people talk to me about it, they’ll be like, nobody’s doing anything. And I’m like, every year, NCOSE with their dirty dozen list, they make progress. They have wins. And if you’re on their mailing list, you’ll get messages, and it’s so amazing to be part of that, because you can feel the momentum. And as much as this online stuff is this overarching, exploitative, abusive, systemic problem. It affects every woman who listens to this podcast.

And so many families all over the world, it’s horrific. It needs to be stopped, it’s an abuse issue. The exploiters, they don’t want people to know that progress is being made. They want people to think it’s a lost cause or fine, and what’s your problem? We should just let this go. Or the alternative, which is, there’s nothing you can do.

Melea: They want it to seem that it’s a right and an entitlement, first and foremost. They don’t want people to know that it’s illegal. They want people to feel this is a free speech issue. And it’s not, it’s not protected speech, but you would think that’s the case given everything they do. They have all these organizations that are under misleading names, such as this free speech coalition, various names that make it sound like they’re anti exploitation as well.

They have some groups that sound like they’re anti trafficking, that they’re actually the industry putting up a false front to sound like they’re being benevolent, and they’re doing everything they can to undermine decency in society.

The Best Resources To Stop Human Trafficking

Melea: So you have to do your homework and dig deep when it comes to these issues. A legislator presented this filter bill, just like in our state and in other states. Several groups came in acting like they were, pro family, pro children presenting Trojan horse stills that sounded anti exploitation, and people fell for it. It’s a very sneaky opponent. Thankfully, the law is on our side, science is on our side.

As we educate the public about the harms of it on the brain and relationships in society. And as we educate the public about what the law actually says. They become empowered to push back against this evil industry.

Anne: And so that my listeners are not distracted by actual traffickers who say, Hey, I want to stop trafficking. So you don’t accidentally support a trafficker. NCOSE is the place to get your information to stop human trafficking. They are trustworthy, they’ve been around for so long, and they do their homework. And they know who the specific people are and talk about specific actionable things. That’s what makes it so effective.

Melea: Well, thank you so much. Enjoyed my time with you.

Anne: Yes, you too. Thank you.

If you’re like many women in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community, you’ve spent hours scouring the internet, researching why your husband has no empathy for you.

Is it mental illness? A history of trauma? Is it physiological? Due to addiction or pornography use?

Or is it a choice?

Maybe he’s emotionally abusive? To discover if he’s using any one of the 19 types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

Nora is on the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast with Anne, taking a deep dive into why some men abuse their partners. And refuse to connect in a compassionate, healthy way.

All The (Wrong) Reasons…

Many women in t have tried to find the cause for their partner’s cold, distant, abusive behaviors. That do not include abuse – hopeful that their partner can change or be fixed so that the marriage can stay intact. Therapists, clergy, internet research and others may point them in the direction of:

• Mental illness
• Addiction
• Alcoholism
• Anger problems
• Pornography use
• Personality disorders
• Childhood trauma
• Stress
• Poor examples of marriage/relationships

While abusive men may have any combination of these. Abuse is a choice that men make – not a condition that they cannot control. So alcoholism, for example, may exacerbate abuse, but it is not the cause of abuse.

Abusing You Is His Choice: Now What?

Understanding that he is choosing to abuse you. Despite whatever his “reason” is or a “reason” his therapist may give you.

Victims may feel trapped, wondering how to proceed. When a disorder, addiction, or other external issue is to blame, victims get distracted from their own emotional safety.

Women seeking education regarding an abusive partner may benefit from these resources:

• Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions
• The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast

Transcript: What To Do When Your Husband Has No Empathy

Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. I’m going to call her Norine. She’s a victim of betrayal and emotional, psychological, and financial abuse. Her ex-husband is a former police officer and serving a sentence in federal prison after a child abuse material conviction. Sometimes people call that child pornography, but we know it’s child abuse material.

Her ex-husband staunchly denied he knew anything about the abuse material on his computer, and insisted she was responsible for “planting it there.”

Welcome. Norine.

Norine: Thank you so much, glad to be here.

Anne: As women are trying to figure out what is going on, like is he an addict, does he have a personality disorder? Sometimes CSAT therapists start start going down that path, so I think many women will be interested in your story. And the ways you have processed this.

Norine: I’ve thought, you know, personality disorder, narcissism, abuser, and he was abusive. But at the time, I’d only done as much research as I could and loved him for as long as I wanted to fix things. He was involved in a shooting incident at work. As a person in law enforcement, I assumed PTSD, but he said, “No, you’re my problem.”

Therapy & Misguided Support With Assessment

Norine: So, my ex got his own therapist, wonderful, through work. He told them, I don’t need support, I need this because my wife is so awful to me. My husband had no empathy. That therapist even called me in to talk to me and didn’t believe me. He dismissed me. He invited me in and then didn’t want to hear from me. I think, again, he was looking for me to be the problem. There’s something wrong with her.

He spent our entire marriage thinking any emotion I had was wrong, so I was just whining. And didn’t seem to understand that I had feelings, he had no empathy. He wasn’t capable of compromising often. Context blindness was another aspect, it was the forest for the trees issue, which he couldn’t see. He couldn’t see what I call the connective tissue between decisions we made or things we were arguing about.

He cannot take responsibility for his own actions. That’s one of the primary issues. He believes he’s always right, despite plenty of evidence. I was hurt by the time he spent on his computer, even if I wasn’t aware of what he was doing. I was just trying to, it’s what everybody views as a label, but I wanted an answer, a reason. So I started with personality disorder. I said, can you look into this? I want to help him, I want our family back together. This wasn’t to label him and…

Anne: It was to solve a problem.

Norine: Right, the assessment I booked it and I paid for it. We drove to the assessment together. I went home with him.

He Received A Diagnosis

Norine: And yes, buying into this idea that oh, it’s a disorder. We can address this now, because we know what it is. I hadn’t identified it as abuse, from my point of view at that point.

My husband has no empathy. He blames me for everything, what I’m not doing. I didn’t see it as abuse. There was no discussion of that, and I wasn’t surprised for that to be the case. Because law enforcement chose this therapist. And that’s another bullet on my list of people who weren’t safe people to go to, because they exacerbated the problem.

Anne: The things that you just said on that list are the traits of abusers who do not have a disorder. When he received his diagnosis, how did he think about it?

Norine: We didn’t talk about it much, so I don’t know fully. But the next day it was, you know, this is not me. You’re just looking for an excuse to deflect and minimize your responsibility for the problem we have. And the situation we’re in now.

It was right back to the script he followed for the entire time. That I had done something wrong, and I needed to toe the line and get my behavior back in order. So that we could put our marriage back together again, and that I wouldn’t take responsibility.

Anne: Yeah.

Searching For The Cause When Your Husband Has No Empathy

Anne: This is something that I think is super important for every single listener of this podcast. I say it repeatedly, but I want it to hit home for everyone. It does not matter what the cause is, if it’s abusive to you, it’s abusive. It breaks our hearts, because it could be something that is completely not their fault. Someone could be a super healthy person and get like a head injury, for example.

And their head injury alters their personality and causes them to be abusive. In that case, you can, with compassion, look at them. And say, this is such an unfortunate situation that they had this head injury and it caused them to be abusive. But that doesn’t mean the abuse is okay. If you’re harmed, it’s okay to get to safety regardless of the cause.

That’s really hard, because women think if they can figure out why he’s doing these harmful behaviors to their family. This is a powerful truth about emotional abuse. If they understand why their husband is not empathetic. They might not use the word abuse, they think. If they can figure out why, then we can solve it. As you tried to get help and explain what had happened to people at the time, you didn’t have the words. And so the thing you were talking about the most was a diagnosis.

Norine: Yes, and thank you for saying that. Because if there’s one take home, let’s say six years out from the major crisis. Is that I have come to understand it’s abuse. I amplify that message that it’s abuse, and you need to take care of you and your children.

He Plays The Blame Game & Seeking Answers

Anne: Many men would not go in for a psych evaluation, or some sort of testing. So what prompted the test to get a diagnosis?

Norine: It was, of course, my idea. Because I came out of our second couple’s therapist of three where the therapist told him, “Her needs were important to you, and you wanted to honor those.” And his immediate response was, well, no. I thought she was going to leave me, so I had to. It was so devoid of any sort of care for me, or even an awareness that he should be at least putting on a show that he cared.

And it just hit me wrong, and that’s where I went down the rabbit hole and hit on the term alexithymia. Which is this difficulty connecting with the feelings of others and identifying them. So I pushed, and he was I think so wholly convinced that I was the problem, that he was willing to do that. Because it would prove that I was the issue, and there was nothing wrong with him.

The fall apart stage was after the birth of my second child. When I decided I wanted a third child. And he didn’t want one. It was the same fight as through all those years. But I held my ground with what I wanted for the first time, thinking that surely this time I will convince him. He did agree. And so I got pregnant.

So we were on a family vacation, and he was cold and distant. My husband was so cruel had no empathy. Then said, “You blackmailed me into having this child, and I can’t accept it.” And so here I was pregnant with two little guys, and he was ready to move out.

Discovering The Truth

Norine: Honestly, I did not learn until two days after I testified at his federal trial that confirmed 100 percent, that he was cheating. But when he left the house, he originally said I was sticking him with the children as much as possible. At every spare moment he had, and he didn’t want them. I said, okay, I’ll keep them. Then suddenly he wanted them. And he was taking my children off to hang out with his mistress.

I suspected, but I kept putting it aside because I wanted to believe it wasn’t happening, and we could still fix the marriage. That was months and months before I got really suspicious. He said we didn’t have enough money for a third child, but he spent a lot of money.

That’s when I logged into his computer looking for evidence of whatever was going on with him. And that’s when I found quite a bit of exploitative material. And then I thought it was being deleted from the hard drive. So I set it aside, turned it off, disconnected it, and still wanted to work on the marriage. His behavior was then erratic.

Through this whole period, he would disappear with my kids. And that’s how he took them someplace, and I thought he was taking them for good. He was just doing various suspicious things. Like putting a trash can in front of my car, in the driveway in front of the garage door.

So I would have to get out and move it when I opened the garage door. Or trash the house and say the dogs spread garbage around. So he was starting to get really manipulative in that way.

When Your Husband Has No Empathy: Forensic Evidence & Legal Battles

Norine: Ultimately, I said to myself, I have to investigate what’s on this computer. This is where I think it connects with what you talk about here on your podcast. I thought surely the courts will say, well, this man has tens of thousands of images on his computer, that he’s downloading all the time. He can’t be an effective parent, and I would get custody and the kids would be safe.

So I sent the computer off for forensics, still not letting myself believe any more than moments at a time. And it came back with CSAM on it, my husband got caught using CSAM.

Anne: So CSAM is the term Child Abuse Material, So how did your experiences with DV and counseling professionals, law enforcement, the courts exacerbate your trauma?

Norine: In so many ways. Whenever I think of this now that I’ve been listening to your podcast, I think of one episode you did and I’ve listened to them out of sequence. So I don’t know how long ago it was, but it was when you were so raw, honest, and vulnerable. About having been in court and having gotten nothing of what you wanted and needed for you and your kids in terms of custody. That feeling came right to the surface for me.

Again, I don’t think I cried so hard as I have in family courts. Because people have not recognized this idea of describing these experiences, and not believed by friends, family, and professionals. And I faced it over and over again.

Emotional Turmoil In Family Courts

Norine: When he was arrested, the people in his department went to the FBI agent, and they said, oh, you know, of course she set him up, right? He didn’t do this. And the FBI agent said, go read the filing documents. And then I think some of them believed, but they weren’t a resource for me. I even have one domestic violence counselor, because I’ve been to several of the centers in my various towns, and one said, oh, well it’s very nuanced.

Because I went to them at one point thinking, am I the abuser? Is this all my fault? Did I do something wrong? Oh, it can be very nuanced. Because she didn’t hear anything I said that made her say, oh, yes, he’s abusive. So there I was already in this fog of self doubt, and that set me back.

The courts just don’t have space to listen to any of the categories you discuss in your podcast. They’re so focused on, this must be two parties who contribute equally to a problematic dynamic. And they’re both acting childish or irresponsibly. We’re just going to shut this down. Because the best thing for children, except for extreme circumstances that we can’t identify here. Is their access to both parents. Autism doesn’t make people abusive. It also doesn’t make people bad parents.

It has to be about the behaviors and traits, and I’m not sure I ever got that bulleted list together for myself. Of what is going on here that makes him unsafe, because it was so nebulous. That’s the reason why I’m not believed.

A Husband with No Empathy Neglects the Children

Norine: If I say, he called me up and had custody of the kids, and he hadn’t fed them dinner at 8 o’clock. My husband has no empathy for the kids either. They were all under the age of 7. People were like, well, that’s not child abuse to not feed them until 8 o’clock at night. I just kind of felt stuck at the how do I demonstrate that this is problematic behavior regardless of its label.

And then I got the deus ex machina situation, well, he’s been lifted out of here. He’s clearly unsafe because he’s looking at CSAM, but I have colleagues whose partners don’t do that, and they’re just as unsafe in other ways.

Anne: Yeah, a lot of people said, oh, your ex got arrested for abuse. I have a guilty verdict with a 14 month probation and a protective order. And the courts didn’t see that as dangerous around children either. It’s so interesting when you try to define these sort of psychological and emotional abusive things, they’re like, well, he just isn’t into trombone, when I say he will not support my son in his trombone.

Things that when you’re in it, you know, how abusive it is. But from the outside, they just think, oh, people parent differently. There are different styles. So it’s also interesting that there’s no abuse diagnosis. There’s no space for that. Even though the courts say there is. It’s crazy making for those of us who have tried to get our kids to safety.

Courts Don’t Understand Emotional & Psychological Abuse

Norine: You know, I read the entire transcript three years out. I testified, and then I promptly left the courtroom, never to return because I didn’t want to hear it. But I felt ready to read it and understand what I’m up against when he’s released. At a sentencing hearing, the federal court judge who sat there and heard all his testimony and all the lies he told.

That’s all explicitly on record. You perjured yourself, you blamed your ex wife, you are at fault and you will not admit it. During his house arrest period, he was not to go near me or the children. In the next breath, he said, I released this hold. You can have unsupervised visitation with your children if the family courts allow it.

Anne: And the family courts don’t understand emotional and psychological abuse. They don’t understand these issues of coercion, safety, unless they’re in prison or there’s some kind of severe bruise.

Norine: Right, it wasn’t enough that the content he was watching, I will not get graphic, but incest was a theme. So how would you say my children are safe?

Anne: I had a guardian ad litem look over it when I was saying he was unsafe. And say, I don’t understand why she’s saying her ex is unsafe. He seems safe to me.

Norine: He looked at me two weeks before I gave birth to our third child and said, I want nothing to do with this baby. And I told a guardian ad litem. She said, well, he wants to be a parent now, so we need to let him.

Struggles With Friends & Family

Anne: Let’s talk about friends and family, apart from counseling professionals in the court. How did they see this? Did they believe and support you? Or realize your husband has no empathy?

Norine: On the side of my friends, you know this, and listeners probably know this. That you learn who your true friends are. You learn who your tough friends are, because it’s not easy to process. For the people who can hang with you and listen to it, they’re your people. My friends group, I have some of my longstanding friends. But a lot of my tribe now are newer people who came in when I was in the midst of the story. Or post the story and were okay with me telling and retelling it.

And visiting it as I need to. My family not as much. My ex’s family, I suspect they knew about the behavior. Because it didn’t start during my marriage. It started in his tween or teen years, and I think they’ve been covering for him. They’re a family with some social status and money. They’ve funded all his lawsuits in the family court, all his federal trial, an appeal, and whatever legal steps he’s taking right now.

They supported him, and in fact his parents, petitioned me for visitation of the kids. They were already taking steps before he was even arrested. So to me that said, they knew I had his computer. And it was only a matter of time before I figured out what was on it and before something happened.

So they pursued visitation rights, got them. And the opening questions when I was cross examined at his federal trial were about how I was keeping the grandchildren from their grandparents.

My Husband Has No Empathy: Ongoing Accusations & Letters

Norine: Because the whole narrative for him was that I was a vindictive spouse who just wanted the kids and money and to make his life miserable.

Anne: So this was at the federal trial for his child abuse material case. They brought up that you were withholding the kids from the grandparents because you were vindictive, to blame you. Is he still doing the, you set him up?

Norine: Yes. I mean, he hasn’t actually said those words. He sends bimonthly letters to my children and still says, I’m pursuing this aspect of my case again. It’s going back to the courts and they’re looking at it, and they passed the first step, which is important because it shows that I’m telling the truth. The way I read it, it’s plausible deniability.

Well, you can’t prove beyond a doubt that it was me, because it could have been her because she knew this password. Or he’d make up lies just to make it seem as if I could be responsible. He keeps insisting they have not proven that I did not know it was there, that I didn’t put it there. That’s because I had a shared computer and we shared passwords, It could be me. So he’s not let go of that no.

It puts my children in this position. We can talk about my children. It’s, you know, I’m laughing now, now I’m in this laughable space. But my kids are in this, and this is not funny, unfortunately. Because he blames me, and it’s on public record. As is his infidelity. He’s putting my kids in the position of having to believe one or the other of us, because it’s either or.

Anne: Ugh, it’s a nightmare. It’s a nightmare.

He’s Currently In Prison & Future Concerns

Anne: So he’s currently in prison. How long will he be in prison?

Norine: Another two and a half years, roughly. A little bit more than that.

Anne: And I imagine that for the moment you’re like, okay, we have a little break. But you have anxiety and worry about him getting out.

Norine: Exactly. And I thank you for validating that. And I think that’s where the friends network breaks down a little bit. Why do you keep worrying about this? Why don’t you just live your life? Worry about that later, you can’t predict the future, so many things. And I don’t live in that moment every single day of my life. But I have to be prepared for it, because there’s no doubt. This is his entire life right now, standing by that he’s innocent and planning to come out and be super dad.

Anne: Oh, it is. It is really, really rough. So in addition to your justifiable concern and worry about when this horrible non empathetic man he gets out of prison. How has his behavior affected your children in other ways?

Norine: He sends letters. Every other week, the court ordered he’d be allowed to do that. But his letters are so out of a fantasy world that it’s confusing for them. He talks about going to the beach and how he has neighbors. And he had this special meal for dinner and all these wonderful things happening. It’s a sanitized version of reality that’s confusing for them. Because they say, doesn’t he know that we know where he is?

It’s threatening to pull them into his way of being. That’s not healthy. So we have to work against that when we’re living as a family or working with their support system.

Moving Forward & Keeping Privacy

Norine: And then unfortunately, it’s perhaps forever unknown whether he actually harmed them in any way. They were fairly young, and I’ve had dealings with child protective services who have investigated this. So my kids have been put through that too.

A positive is that we’ve moved a couple of times since this all happened. So we no longer live in the town where this took place, and they were young enough that their friends weren’t talking about it at great length. There’s a chance they can keep it private in their school and friend circles if they so choose. So that’s a positive.

Anne: Oh, it’s really sad and disheartening to realize that the justice system is more about the rights of perpetrators than protecting victims. Making sure the victims are safe is not high on the priority list. So I’m so sorry you got that sort of hanging out there in space. When was your divorce final?

Norine: It took a while. I filed and then worked on the marriage for another year, and it finally was finalized. I don’t know what compelled him to sign the paperwork, because part of his profile is also to be demand avoidant. And I don’t know if he wanted to look good for the courts. But he finally let me go. So it’s completely done. It took so long, in part because my attorney advised to wait until we found out the outcome of his trial. Before we moved to finalize things.

Men who have No empathy is a red flag: Experiences Of Dating After Abuse

Anne: So since you’ve been divorced and dating again, can you talk about how your experience with abuse and betrayal, and also the nightmare of the court system. How have your experiences affected your dating life?

Norine: Yeah, I’m vigilant. As, as one would be, and probably many of your listeners are, if they’ve stepped into this realm. I’d look for signs. The signs of abuse pop out. I’ve come to be an expert at reading a dating app profile for red flags. But even so, I would say I’ve ended up in personality disorder relationships.

So I stepped back when I found myself in those situations and took a break, because I had to be honest with myself. And say, I didn’t have a baseline for what a normal relationship was like because we started our relationship in college. So I entered the dating realm for the first time as a true adult.

I remember having this moment at the time. I was given estimates of what content was on his computer, and they’re saying 50 to 100 thousand images. And I looked at my therapist, who was a man, and I said, is that a lot? Because it was so normalized, men look at this stuff. Every man looks at it. So it was just what men do. So that another man was shocked by what he was doing, that my husband had no empathy, was a wake up call for me.

And I had to be mindful of that. I had to learn where to set my boundaries. Based on what my expectations could be. And to learn that I could set my expectations as high as I wanted. And I did. My ex husband has no empathy, and I don’t want to repeat that.

Finding Hope In Healthy Relationships

Norine: And I am actually in a wonderful relationship right now. So I listen to these stories all the time of women who aren’t ready. And I celebrate them that they know they’re not ready. And I listened to women who are hurt again, and I hurt for them because I’ve hurt too. Anybody who wants to be in a relationship again, I want that for them because I believe it’s possible.

Anne: Yeah, when I was with my ex and I was in this addiction recovery world, and helping him with his addiction, I genuinely felt like. All men are addicts. Now that I’m out of that and have been introduced, and I interact with many healthy men, I have more hope than ever. Personally, I don’t want to be in a relationship, but simultaneously, I agree that it is possible.

I don’t want abuse to ruin what they want and care about. So many abusers ruin their victim’s faith, for example. They want a faith in God, or a faith in anything or something. That gets ruined for them, or a belief that they could have a healthy relationship.

Norine: Yeah, I think many of us end up in these relationships because we’re kind, caring, flexible people. That want to be invested. There are plenty of other ways to invest all your kindness and love. Youand you can put it into things like podcasting, children, so many things. Yeah, but if that’s what people want, it’s absolutely doable.

Anne: Yeah, I’ve met quite a few advocates who are now married to healthy men after an abusive relationship. And one of the things they tell me, and I don’t know if you would agree, is it’s so easy. So different than when your husband has no empathy.

Marriage With A Healthy Husband Is Not Difficult

Anne: Like you don’t even know how easy it can be. That also makes me happy, because that whole marriage is work. And it has to be, I’m not saying marriage isn’t work, is sort of a way to manipulate women into thinking that a marriage has to be hard and really difficult. And rationalize when your husband has no empathy. When with a healthy person, it maybe doesn’t need to be that difficult. How do you feel about that?

Norine: Oh my goodness, that speaks to my experience so well. My partner and I joke about this. We will mock language of what the conflict might be. I bought a deck of relationship questions for Christmas, and we snicker our way through it. Because we’ve already discussed three quarters of the content on these cards.

I think it’s meant to prompt like deep conversation. We already did it on our own. And anything that delves into areas of conflict, we snicker because we don’t feel like we’re ever going to be in that position. Because we’re so open. Communication, which was the biggest challenge in my marriage, is so simple. Not like when your husband has no empathy.

I think, you know, arguing could be healthy in a relationship. I believe that, but we don’t get to that point because the communication is so good. It’s just discovering something that we all deserve, and it’s so exciting.

Anne: It is exciting, yeah. That’s good news. And I’m so happy that you found that. That’s awesome.

Tools For Safety & Communication: Living Free Strategies

Anne: In terms of abuse in general, but also specifically with your abuser who is in prison right now. There maybe flying monkeys or others who don’t understand our situation. When our husband has no empathy or natural care for us, what tools and strategies do you use to keep yourself safe?

Norine: My favorite genuine tool, you’ve mentioned on your podcast and used it. I use the Our Family Wizard app to communicate with my abusive ex in-laws. That allows you to document and timestamp all communication. It’s all in one place. You access it when you want and need to, and feel safe doing so. There can never be any misunderstanding about whether a message was received, and what it said, because it’s all documented.

Anne: Yeah, the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop builds the foundation for safe strategies, thoughts, boundaries and communication strategies and also teaches women how to use Our Family Wizard to their advantage.

There are several key reasons to use Our Family Wizard. One of them is that you only have one point of entry. Where the abusive person can contact you. Because they can’t contact you on your phone or in an email. And you have everything written down and it’s all in one place, like you said.

It’s awesome. So if you haven’t checked out the the Living Free Workshop, check it out.

Norine: Absolutely, yeah, so helpful.

Ex Husband Has No Empathy, Dealing With Manipulative Communication

Norine: Another thing related to communication, and I hope your listeners will understand this. This is certainly something that I struggled with a lot. I believe my ex dog whistles. So the idea that only dogs hear a certain frequency of a dog whistle, my ex will say things in letters to my children. That are designed, I believe, to get a reaction from me that no one else would see as problematic. Still, my ex husband has no empathy for me or the kids.

And of course, that works beautifully in the courtroom too. I would have panic attacks every time one of the letters hit the mailbox. Because I felt I had to read them, because I’m the line of defense between my children and whatever content is in this letter. But I have friends, they’re fabulous in terms of the gallows humor. I send them a copy of the letter, and we read it together.

They help me remove myself from getting hooked into that feeling of being controlled by that message. And just finding the humor in the moment. It’s a small thing, but you know, it hits my mailbox every other week. So I’m constantly dealing with them, even though I’ve exited the relationship. I still have to engage in this way, so I make sure it’s done in a way that supports me.

Anne: It is so sad to me that the justice system does not recognize that an abuser can still abuse their victim from prison.

Norine: Yes, yes.

Anne: The fact that he’s allowed, and not only allowed, but also the court protects his letters to your kids. Like you said, I’ve exited the relationship, but I am still forced to interact with him and he’s in prison.

Challenges With In-Laws Creating Chaos

Anne: If it was a stranger who had, let’s say, raped you once on the street. And then let’s say he got 15 years prison for that. If you said he writes me a letter every other week, they would be like whoa, whoa, whoa. You should not be reading those letters. He should not be sending these to you.

Norine: Exactly, I mean, he’s shored up this line of attack too. Because that’s another reason why I believe my ex-in-laws are in this picture. They have weekly phone calls with my children, and they engage in the same behavior. They have the right to send gifts, so they create their own chaos. I won’t necessarily go into that, but yeah, we all know as the abuse victims that these are tactics they use. But they fly right under the radar.

You know, I’ve also thought about this, with respect to the in-laws having access. I thought the same thing as you just said. If my ex husband and I were together and on the same page and decided our parents or in-laws were toxic. We could say, no thank you.

You cannot spend time with my children. But because he and I do not see eye to eye, my in-laws get to step in and create whatever scenario they want. I feel like if I had a dog, I would have more say about what choices I make about my pet than about my children and their safety. The only hope is for our children to age out of the process. And they’re trusted to make their own good choices about their future and relationships with their parents.

Dealing With Public Exposure & Its Effects

Anne: One aspect of your story is that some of it was publicized in the news. How do you think having it in the news, even if you didn’t know people. Just knowing that it was out there, how did that affect you? And how has that had an ongoing effect on you?

Norine: There’s nothing like your partner cheating on you and then having everybody know. I’m grateful that I didn’t find that out until I had processed the possibility, and I was beyond wanting to be with him. Because my ex husband has no empathy and he is trying to actively harm us. But it’s hard to think about my children reading it, and my almost 12 year old right on developmental target has been Google searching.

So we’ve been talking a lot about it. I had news reporters in my driveway. There was social media chatter. It’s hard to stomach. I created a healthy distance from it. But it’s so interesting to watch the people who said she shouldn’t have said anything, and she’s ruined her kids’ lives. And why didn’t she say something earlier? Which I couldn’t because I didn’t know. But it was misreported. I think that’s a hard thing, but an interesting thing because.

We’re all consumers of the news, and we read a story and pass judgment. Or don’t, I guess, but based on our life experience and what we read. And how discriminating we are in the kind of news we consume. But when you have that experience of mistruths, it shows how often the news gets it wrong. Especially because they can’t comprehend that some of these husbands have no empathy.

Believing Victims & Seeking Justice When An Ex Husband Has No Empathy

Norine: So I try to process everything I hear now, even more deliberately. But going forward, part of me wants to speak out, continue speaking out, and put the story out there. I also want to be shut down by my ex, because he certainly doesn’t think I’m speaking the truth. So I have these mixed feelings about what it means to have it be public. I want to make good use of it, but it might work against me in some ways.

Anne: I wonder when he does get out, the climate has maybe shifted a little bit in terms of the media, thank goodness. People seem to believe victims more than they have historically.

Norine: I thought it was super interesting that the jury convicted him. And I worked with victim witness specialists in the courts. They said, yeah, when the jury heard him, he’s unfaithful, and the way he was treating you. Your testimony was credible. He was not winning over many people. And they said, particularly the mothers on the jury, they saw you just trying to protect your children.

So I don’t know if the climate makes a difference, because ultimately it comes down to who’s on the jury or who’s on the judge’s bench. I think that has a lot more to do with it.

Anne: Yeah, it’s too bad that in our divorces, we don’t have a jury of moms.

Norine: That’d be fabulous.

Anne: That would be awesome.

Messages Of Support & Community

Norine: I just want to reiterate the kind of message you share on the podcast all the time. Get to safety, you’re not crazy. Something we say in group a lot. I believe you, this is happening, trust your instinct. All those things we say them over and over again. They’re powerful, say them to yourself and trust yourself. That’s ultimately how you can get to safety. So, don’t discount you.

Anne: You are amazing, and all of our listeners are amazing. It is a big warning sign if your husband has no empathy. You have been through the most horrific, nightmarish experiences, all of us have, so many women are in that super, traumatic time. And the wonderful thing is that as a community, we support each other. We help each other, and give each other spiritual hugs or hugs from across Apple podcasts.

Knowing that there is a whole community of women who completely and totally understand. We are all different and look different. We all sound different and made different choices. But the things we have experienced, the patterns of lying and gaslighting, deceit and blame, all of that is so similar. I’m so grateful to not be in this alone. And also grateful that as a community, we are becoming more and more healthy. We can teach our children and hopefully one home at a time. We’re making this world a better place.

Norine: Absolutely, thank you so much for having me. And for all that you do.

You don’t have anything wrong with you if you left an emotionally abusive marriage and your new husband is abusive too.

This episode follows Chandra’s Story:
This Is How Abusers Manipulate Their Victims – Chandra’s First Marriage
Part 2: When My New Husband Is Abusive Too – Chandra’s Second Marriage (THIS EPISODE)

When women experience a second abusive husband, they may blame themselves:

• I’ve already been through this once, how could I make this mistake again?
• What is it about me that attracts me to abusers?
• Why didn’t I see the signs sooner?
• Why didn’t I do this, this, and this differently?

Here’s the truth: you are not to blame for his behaviors when your new husband is abusive too.

Blaming yourself for abuse by another man is needless torture. You have been through enough – please exercise compassion for yourself rather than judgment. Many women, including Chandra, experience embarrassment and shame when they realize their new husband is also abusive. This shame and embarrassment may deter them from seeking safety early on, believing that with enough grit and determination, they can make the marriage work.

BTR.ORG Is Here When Your New Husband Is Abusive Too

Victims of abuse who have a new husband may feel discouraged, embarrassed, and hopeless. Sometimes, victims express feeling silly or pathetic for having entered into a second marriage.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to be loved. In fact, this is a normal part of being human. What is NOT normal, is being abusive. You are not the problem here – the abuser is the problem.

If you are experiencing trauma from a second husband, please join our BTR.ORG Group Sessions today. You deserve a healing community of loving, compassionate women who understand.

Transcript: When My New Husband Is Abusive Too

Anne: Chandra, a member of our community, is back on today’s episode. Last week, she told the story about her emotionally abusive first husband. This week, we’ll talk about her second husband, her new husband is abusive too. If you haven’t heard about her first marriage, go back and listen to last week first, and then join us here.

Chandra, welcome back.

Chandra: I’m still wrapping my head around grace for myself for not knowing before that my new husband was abusive. And getting into that situation again. I feel like, why didn’t I see the red flags after what I’d been through? Maybe it was too soon? I hadn’t learned the lessons I needed before another relationship. And I thought I was ready, but I must not have been right.

Anne: I’m going to disagree with you, sorry.

Chandra: That’s okay.

Anne: It’s not your fault that someone abuses you. There are so many women who don’t know much about abuse, or who don’t know how to recognize red flags. And they marry great guys.

Chandra: Yeah.

Anne: Because the guy’s not abusive.

Chandra: Right.

Anne: It’s never your fault if someone intentionally deceives you. It’s never your fault if someone intentionally grooms you, and you don’t know. Those who’ve been through it tend to know more, I would say, than the average person. The average person who marries a healthy person doesn’t know about it. Their husbands didn’t abuse them.

Anne: Even though you went through an abusive situation, this second abuser abused differently than before. I remember talking to a friend who was in a horrific abusive situation. And I was newly married. I went to her and said, “Hey, you know, what’s happening with my husband? Is this kind of what you experienced?”

Early Signs Of Trouble & A Vulnerable Time

Anne: She said, “No, your husband’s amazing compared to my guy.” Right, and so she thought my husband was healthy and great. She’s like, yeah, but nobody’s perfect. But like, man, he’s so much better. And so I was like, Oh, okay, well then he’s not abusive because she would know. Because she’s been in an abusive situation.

But that’s not necessarily the case, because abusers know how to groom people. They can groom you in a way that “works for you.” So I just don’t think it’s ever our fault. However, I think we learn a lot of skills along the way.

Chandra: Oh my, yeah.

Anne: So saying that, I just want to say no. Not your fault.

Chandra: Yeah, that helps. It’s nice to hear that. It’s just frustrating to have spent another eight years with somebody that was also not a great partner and hurt me again. And especially after all the promises. Like, oh, your first husband did you wrong, and I’ll take care of you and never let that happen to you blah, blah, blah.

So, I met my second husband at work. He was not working in the same company. But he was in sales and would visit and attempt to get me to specify his company’s equipment on projects. He was smooth, Mr. Debonair, a lot of fun and interesting. I felt super vulnerable too, and had a broken heart, and wanted to be loved.

And I was vulnerable, and I think sometimes these men can see that. These men look for somebody that is maybe compliant. And it’s a bit weaker and easy to control.

Visiting Back & Forth Without Kids

Anne: I don’t know about that either. Some of them are looking for someone who will manage them. Someone who’s strong. Someone who can organize things and do stuff so they can just kind of coast along. So I also wouldn’t say that’s your fault for everything. You could say, oh, I was weak. So that’s what he was looking for.

There’s also very kind and loving men who might be like, oh, she’s weak, so I need to protect her. So I just don’t think again that it’s your fault. Every time you tell me there’s some reason, I’m gonna say no, no, no. It is not your fault that your second husband is abusive too.

Chandra: Definitely. I’m a high functioning woman. I make stuff happen. I do it. Probably both husbands saw that and went, I want me some of that, right? I want that high functioning woman looking after my life, because let me tell you, I did that. I took care of things. What’s interesting, and this will just tie into my story a bit about my second husband. Is that I would visit him or he would visit me when we didn’t live in the same city, when my kids were visiting their dad.

And so I wish I had seen him more around my kids. If I had, I probably would not have married him, because he didn’t want my kids around. I didn’t discover that until after I married him and moved in with him. And whenever I visited him, his house was spotless. Okay, it looked great, his life looked great. He was looking after things. It all looked good. It didn’t look like my new husband would also be abusive.

The Disappointing Reality Of Living Together

Chandra: I will tell you that the day I moved in, I hadn’t visited for three months. And I am pretty sure he didn’t pick up a single dishcloth. He did not pick up a broom. He did not touch the bathroom. It was a pigsty the day we moved in. It was late at night, and we got there, and my kids needed baths. I remember 10 o’clock at night cleaning the bathroom, thinking, what have I gotten into? This guy wants me to do all the cleaning. He wants me to do everything around here.

I was never able to get him to pick up a broom or vacuum to help. From then on, he said, well, you’re the one with all the kids, so the mess is mostly yours. You need to clean up.

Anne: Was he a member of your church?

Chandra: No, he wasn’t.

Anne: And I’m not saying anything about, if he would have been, it would have been good, no, no, no.

Chandra: I remember thinking when we dated, should I date someone from my faith community? Well, first of all, the pickings were pretty slim where I was living. I lived in a remote northern community north of Toronto, not a lot of choice up there, I would say. There’s some good people up there, but I thought to myself, does it matter?

I married somebody who checked all the boxes I was taught to look for. And look what happened, he was also abusive. So do you think I care if he’s a member of my faith community?

Realizing The Extent Of The Problem

Anne: That’s exactly how I feel now. Yeah, I do not care.

Chandra: I did not care. I just wanted to be with someone who would love me and treat me right. And I thought that’s what I had, but quickly after moving in with him. I realized I was in another abusive relationship. The first Monday morning that we woke up to go to work, he woke up late, his alarm hadn’t gone off or something.

And he looked at me and said, “Why didn’t you get me up?”

And I was like, it’s my job to do that? What have you been doing all this time that you’ve been living alone? It’s not my job to get you up in the morning. And I thought, oh my gosh. He would come home at 10 o’clock at night, and I would not hear from him, and I didn’t know where he was.

And he would come in, and I would say, where were you? And why didn’t you let me know where you were? Like, you’re married, you should tell me where you are. He felt entitled to go wherever he wanted and do what he wanted, and he didn’t have to answer to me.

Anne: Had he been married before?

Chandra: No, and he was a few years younger than me. But his maturity was well below what he had presented. Like, he got into fights with my 10 year old son. And behaved in ways similar to my son. As if his emotional development was arrested at age 10.

Leaving A Second Abusive Marriage

Chandra: It was strange. I started noticing things about him. He had no empathy for my kids, and he did not treat them well. It didn’t take me long before I realized I needed to leave. And I actually moved out about four years after we moved in with him.

I mean, I tried for a while to make things work. But I knew right away I was not in a good situation. But I’ll tell you the shame of making a mistake. That’s what kept me in that situation much longer than I needed to be. That’s one thing I wish I could change, is just, you know, don’t worry about what people think, that I got myself into another abusive marriage. If it’s not right, do something about it. I know that’s not easy. It’s not that simple. I know that. But if I could change anything, that’s one thing I would change.

He had an affair, in the process of me preparing to move out, and I was not expecting that. I mean, we didn’t get along that great. And I was upset with him for his behaviors and the way he treated my kids. But I wasn’t expecting him to do that.

But I recognized the signs right away. And a week after I moved out, I had gone to his place to do my laundry. Because the place I’d moved into was getting a new washer dryer, and it wasn’t there yet. So I went over to his place and lo and behold, there’s a vehicle sitting in the driveway I didn’t recognize. it was unlocked.

My New Husband Is also Abusive: Confronting The Affair

Chandra: So I’m the wife. I’m going to open the door and look in the glove box. And it was a woman’s I. D. in there. And I looked her up on Facebook, and I went into the house. He had taken all the pictures of us, and any evidence that I existed, and swept it into drawers. Basically, he hid every possible evidence that he had a wife. I realized, oh, he’s out on a date with this woman, and he plans to bring her back here.

Because I don’t see any of my stuff out, I hadn’t taken everything. I thought this was going to be a short-term separation. I didn’t know. So I actually looked her up on Facebook, and I sent her a message. And I said, did you know that the man you’re on a date with is married? You know, I’m at the house, I’m going to do my laundry, and I’m not confrontational, but I’d like you to come and get your car and go home. And they stayed out for a while after that.

https://youtube.com/shorts/xZBJeXvdU4o

I know they’d seen my messages, and there was a bit of back and forth. And I just said, I’m just here waiting. I’m not going to hurt anybody. I’m not going to come out and yell at anybody, but I just want to talk to you. I said that to my husband.

Chandra: So he came in and I had evidence and all he could do was lie and lie and lie.

Dealing With Betrayal & Lies

Chandra: He was just lying his face off, trying to hide it. I’ve got the evidence that you’re with this woman, and messaged her the next day. Because even then, all the lies were shaking me up. And I thought, what if it’s not what it looks like. So I actually messaged her again the next day and asked her for details. She said he lied and was separated for six months. I had literally just moved out.

And I told her we were supposed to work on the relationship. We’ve been married for this long. And we struggle over getting along because of the kids. She had no idea he had lied to her, and made it sound like the relationship was over many months ago. She said, “I’m so sorry, I had no idea he told me these lies.”

And I said, “Okay, don’t worry about it.”

But then I showed him the messages. And said, “Look, she told me everything. I know this has been going on for two months.” And once he was found out, he broke down and cried, and, oh, you know, I’m so messed up. And yeah, let’s work on it, blah, blah, blah. So for the next year, I bent over backwards, like I did before, thinking this was just a mistake, like an accident, haha.

He made this mistake, and it’s just because things have been rough, and we’ve been fighting. And we got separated, and it knocked him loose, so he’s a little upset about that. I was making all these stupid excuses for him. I didn’t realize fully that he was abusive too.

The Impact Of Pornography When My second Husband Is Abusive

Anne: Were you aware that he used exploitative material?

Chandra: When we were dating, I said to him, “I absolutely don’t tolerate that stuff in my relationships.”

And he says, “Oh, well, I used to use that. I only use that when I’m single. I don’t need that. I’m not addicted.” That’s what he said. And I said, it is absolutely not welcome in our relationship. And he agreed. He’s like, okay. I can do that. I’m not addicted to it. But, I noticed right before I moved out, he was on his phone a lot.

At one point he had this friend send him images. And we were in the bedroom one time, and he showed me a picture, and he said, Oh, my friend just sent me this. And I took one look at it, and I went, what the heck is that? I said, “That’s pornography. I don’t want to see that.” I was disgusted by it.

And I was angry at him, and I caught him a couple of other times looking at images. And I realized, he went back to it. Maybe he’s been doing it the whole time, and I don’t even know. And he would have problems performing in bed.

Anne: Yep, that’s a thing. Yeah.

Chandra: Right, yeah, and I didn’t realize that, but it sort of made sense. I thought, well, if he’s fooling around with that all the time, he’s not going to have it for me. But he would tell me, he’d say, oh, you do it for me, you do it for me, that kind of thing. Anyway, I realized that was happening, my second husband was also abusive.

Unsuccessful Attempts To Salvage The Relationship

Chandra: Because I didn’t want that again, I made a big effort the year after the affair to go and see him, spend time with him and be intimate with him. Let me tell you.

Anne: Thinking that would solve the problem. That is marital coercion.

Chandra: Thinking that would solve the problem. Neither of my husbands were deprived of intimacy. I’ll just say that. They were not. There was no reason for them to do anything else.

Anne: Even if they’re deprived of intimacy? There’s still no reason for them to do that.

Chandra: I guess the reason I say that is because my first husband had said he had an expectation. That he expected it every day when he married. That’s what he thought. And somehow I had dropped the ball and not made that happen for him. And so that was one of his excuses for acting out.

So moving right along, basically, I think there was more divine intervention in helping me get past this relationship. A year after my second husband had that affair, a bunch of horrible things happened all at once. I lost my job, had a layoff. And I actually think it was related to all the stress I was under. I struggled emotionally and performed at work, but my attitude was bad.

I was really suffering because he is abusive too. Instead of asking me if there was anything they could do to help, my employer was like, she’s a problem. Get her out of here. At least that’s my interpretation of what happened. And being in an all male work environment was just a tough environment for women to be in. But there was no understanding. You know, I was driving my kids around a lot.

Losing A Job & Coping With Loss

Chandra: Sometimes I would have to leave in the middle of the day to take them to appointments. And I don’t think anybody understood what I was going through a second abusive marriage at the time. Trying to work full time, build my career as an engineer, and take care of four kids. It was insane. And I had no family around to help me.

So, I lost my job. And I had a miscarriage somehow. I was 43 and pregnant, and I actually felt so relieved that pregnancy didn’t happen. Because I wasn’t with a good person. When I went through that, I was at the hospital dealing with that. And he couldn’t be bothered to come. He went fishing instead. And that kind of didn’t sit well with me.

Then, you know how, uh, the phones you can have, uh, share my location with your partner, with family members? We had been trying to get that to work, because I wanted to keep tabs on him. And his phone, I couldn’t get it to work with his phone, I couldn’t figure it out.

It was a Sunday afternoon. He came and had dinner with me and the kids. at our place. Then he just went home. And it was weird, because most of the time we spent time on Sunday evenings together before the work week started. And he just went home. I think he said something about having something to do. And I was just sitting there minding my own business. And suddenly, my phone showed me his location.

Discovering The Truth, abou My New Husband

Chandra: And he was in a part of the city that he shouldn’t have been in at that time of day, or during that time of the week. It didn’t make sense. He was down in a part of the city where they would have festivals, and there was actually a festival in the city at the time. I think this was divine intervention and a way to wake me up to the situation I was in. Because I felt panicky again suddenly, and I followed to the location.

And there was this truck in the parking lot at this festival spot. And I thought, Oh my gosh, he’s fooling around on me still. All of a sudden, he returned from the festival towards his truck. And I got out of my car, and he was with a woman, and I started walking towards him. He saw me and he started walking away from her. And I pointed at him and said, “You’re doing it again!” And I said to her, “He’s a cheater.”

I said, “He’s married to me. He’s basically already had one affair, and now he’s trying to have another one.” And I was like, freaking out.

Anne: And most likely more than that that you never knew about.

Chandra: Well, I did find out a lot more later. Because after that happened, I said, “You have to give me all your passwords.” And that’s when I started checking his emails, Facebook, and doing all this stuff. To try and wrap my head around how big this problem was. But I still remember thinking, this is a pattern. You know how they say, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Uncovering The Extent Of Numerous Betrayals

Chandra: I thought to myself, why am I accepting this behavior? And so I gave him another chance. I think I felt ashamed of the situation for a second time. and thought, I want to make this right. I thought there was still a way to figure it out. So I spent the next few months finding out more about what he’d been up to. And contacting many of the women he had been messaging on Facebook and asking them what had actually happened. Collecting evidence that my second husband is abusive as well.

I was doing my sleuthing, right? They messaged me and said, “Oh yeah, he asked me for pictures, and he wanted to get together.” And they told me about conversations. I did all this research and finally said to him. You know, the only way we’re staying together is if we get some counseling from somebody. That can help a couple heal from betrayal.

Anne: Oh, because you didn’t know it was abuse.

Chandra: I still didn’t know. I still didn’t see it that way.

Anne: I want to hear how this counseling went. Because I would guess it’s not doing any good and not going very well.

Chandra: It didn’t do any good. The counselor was well known and does couples counseling to help them heal from betrayal. His approach was better than anything else we’d done. We’d been to counseling two or three times.

Anne: It seems like it would work. It sounds good, it sounds like, oh, our relationship can be healed. It does not work. And in fact, it puts an abuse victim in further danger. And that is what is so scary.

When Your second Husband Is Abusive Too, You Are Not To Blame

Anne: They are not informing people or even acknowledging that this is a perpetrator and abuse victim, so it’s super dangerous for the victims.

Chandra: Yeah, I think the reason I thought it was better. He identified to my second ex-husband that I was injured. He did identify that. And he was trying to get my ex-husband to take the necessary steps to address the injury that had happened to me. He basically said, “This can’t get better until her injury is addressed properly.”

It was better than anything I came across up until that point, right?

Anne: Yeah. These are big questions when you are wondering if you should stay married after infidelity.

Chandra: And he would split us up and speak to us separately. He would give my ex-husband homework, but he would ask us to report back on how things were going separately. So I got to provide feedback on what was happening myself. You know, it evolved beyond what some counselors do.

But it still wasn’t hitting the mark. I recognized that my ex-husband was just jumping through hoops. And making it look good. I recognized that he was just going through the motions. That’s when I realized I was done. We had Christmas. And he went home on Christmas Eve, and he was going to come in the morning and open presents with us. But when he went home that night. He was upset he hadn’t been the center of attention, and he basically texted me and said, “I’m so depressed.”

Emotional Manipulation Unveiled & No Support

Chandra: I don’t get enough attention from you. I think I’m gonna kill myself. Of course, I was terrified, and when he didn’t show up in the morning, I actually went to his house to check if he was okay. And I half expected to find that he’d shot himself or something. That wasn’t the first time he did that.

I realized later that’s emotional abuse and manipulative. I’m upset, and after that happened, I thought, I don’t want this anymore. This is a cycle. I didn’t call it abuse at the time. I just don’t want to live this life anymore. And I deserve better than this. Basically, the entire experience, the 15 years I’ve had, since my first husband left. I have not found decent support in my faith community.

With a few exceptions, there were a few people who were caring and loving. But for the most part, I found that people do not want to talk about it. They don’t want to look at it, they don’t want to hear your story, and why can’t you get over it already? I also don’t feel like the trauma is well understood, like losing a baby, or the death of a spouse. It’s almost like there’s a hierarchy of what’s considered trauma, worthy of compassion, and what’s not.

I got the sense, I started to think. Wow, it almost feels like I’m being ostracized and treated like I’m second class. Because they think I must have done something wrong to deserve what happened to me. And I thought, why would they think that?

Understanding Trauma & Ostracism Of Abandonment

Chandra: And I think it’s actually a defense mechanism where people are afraid of that kind of thing happening. Like, I don’t want to be the abandoned woman. I don’t want to be betrayed. And if I think to myself, well, she must have done something to deserve it, and I don’t do those things, then it won’t happen to me. Without anybody actually ever saying that, is the sense that I have over the years. From the way people have reacted to me and treated me.

Anne: I tend to agree with you. I think they think there’s some way to manage it. This is one of the powerful truths about emotional abuse.

Chandra: Yeah.

Anne: I also think many women are in that situation. If they talk about it, or if they empathize with you, if they don’t blame you at all.

Then they think that could also happen to me in a very real way, in that they are actually going through it. And so they, they think, okay, well, I’m not going to talk about it or acknowledge it , and then he won’t leave me.

Chandra: Yeah, I’m not going to face it. I’m not going to talk about it. Yeah, totally. And the other thing I experienced was people trying to diminish it, make it into a one-time event.

You know, I understand that something happened to you in the past, and now I’m being abused by my new husband, and that was hard. But you know, you shouldn’t let it affect how you are now. And that is not a one-time event. What happened to me, what happened to me, has been ongoing for 25 years, and I continue to suffer. I watch my children suffer.

The Ongoing Cycle of Abuse: When Your New Husband Is Abusive

Chandra: I continue to be abused. My first husband continues to financially abuse me. It’s not a one-time event, and people don’t understand. It’s a long process to overcome the trauma happening around those circumstances.

Anne: They don’t understand that we’re still being abused. Actively abused. Yes, actively. And when you tell them that, they’re like, “Well, I guess we’re.” They just don’t get it.

Chandra: They just don’t get it.

Anne: There’s nothing that you could say to be like, no, I’m still actively abused. Well, you’re not married to him. So how could he do that? Is he hitting you? Is he coming over to your house and smacking you in the face?

Chandra: Yeah, it’s not, it’s so subtle. But the thing is, I found myself getting more and more angry at those reactions. And, you know, like I said before, I’m a praying woman. I prayed for help, because I knew I was so angry and frustrated. And I don’t think I had ever had the support I needed. Your Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group didn’t exist when I went through my first abandonment and betrayal. I didn’t have any close friends who had been through it.

And even my own family loved me and tried to support me. But no one understood what I was going through. I felt alone for many, many years and was just in executive functioning mode, just trying to make stuff happen for everybody. When I found the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, I felt validated, supported and understood for the first time.

Finding Solace In Betrayal Trauma Recovery

uuse and healing some of the spiritual and emotional wounds I’ve had. Because of the pain of, my second husband being husband is abusive.

You know, I was high functioning, making stuff happen in my day to day life, and was focused on that.

My youngest daughter turned 18, and she moved out, and I was on my own, empty nester in a new marriage. I realized I had a lot of wounds to heal, and I was feeling angry about some of my experiences with people in my faith community, and I thought I needed help.

I think that’s why I found you, because it was the right time. And I think God knows when we need certain things in our life. And that’s why I found the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast when I did.

Anne: I’m so glad you did. I’ve heard so many stories like that of people who said, I need help. I need help. They say a prayer, a stand up, go to their computer and find the This podcast.

Pay Attention To Your Gut Feelings

Anne: And I’m actually very humbled that they think Heavenly Father directs them here. I’m grateful he helped me start this podcast. And then helped BTR grow so that people can find us. I never imagined it growing in this way.

And so I think. God’s hand really is in this, and he really does love us and care about us, and he wants us to find each other and hear these stories. Because knowing that we’re not alone is so healing.

Chandra: Yeah. What you’re doing is incredible, and it’s inspired, and it’s really, really badly needed.

Anne: Well, I needed it, which is why I started it.

Chandra: Yep, yep, exactly.

I think probably one of the most important things would have been to pay closer attention to the gut feelings. I don’t know how to get over the issue women face when their husbands lie to them. It’s not normal to actually think someone is lying to you. That’s why lying is emotional abuse. I have to, I have to share something.

The Power of Truth Default Theory When Your Husband Is Abusive

Chandra: I read a book by Malcolm Gladwell called Talking to Strangers. He uses some examples to illustrate something called Truth Default Theory. Which came out of Timothy R. Levine’s research. He’s a distinguished professor at the University of Alabama.

He has this theory about how when we communicate with other people, we not only tend to believe them. But the thought that maybe we shouldn’t doesn’t even come to mind. And it allows people to communicate in society. But it makes it really hard for women in these situations to actually detect lying in their husband.

And when Malcolm Gladwell wrote about this, he said, we have a default to truth. Our operating assumption is that people we are dealing with are honest. To snap out of truth default mode requires a trigger. A trigger is not the same as a suspicion or the first sliver of doubt. Also, we fall out of truth default mode only when the case against our initial assumption becomes definitive.

We don’t behave like sober minded scientists, slowly gathering evidence of the truth or falsity of something before reaching a conclusion. We do the opposite. And start by believing, and we stop believing only when our doubts and misgivings rise to the point where we can no longer explain them away.

Doubts trigger disbelief only when you can’t explain them away. In the movies, the brilliant detective confronts the subject and catches him right then and there in a lie. But in real life, accumulating the evidence necessary to overwhelm our doubts takes time.

The Challenge Of Detecting Lies When Our Default Is Believing Others Are Telling The Truth

Chandra: He says in his book, “You ask your husband if he’s having an affair, and he says no.”

And you believe him. Your default is that he is telling the truth. And whatever little inconsistencies you spot in his story, you explain away. But three months later, you notice an unusual hotel charge on his credit card bill. And the combination of that and the weeks of unexplained absences and mysterious phone calls pushes you over the top.

That’s how lies are detected. Default to truth becomes an issue. When we choose between two alternatives, one of which is likely and the other impossible to imagine. Default to truth biases us in favor of the most likely interpretation, right up to the point where believing becomes absolutely impossible.

This is how most human beings are wired. In those rare cases where trust ends in betrayal, those victimized by default to truth deserve our sympathy, not our censure.

Anne: That’s so good.

Chandra: And I came across that, and it was really validating. Because I’d had people ask me after my husband left and his affair came out. And I had said, “I knew something was going on, but I just didn’t know what.”

I knew something was wrong, and I knew he was lying to me. And I remember one woman in particular said to me, then why didn’t you just leave? If you knew, why didn’t you just leave? She was challenging me. And I thought. I couldn’t explain it at the time. Now after reading this, I understand we’re not wired to think people lie to us.

Anne: Especially not our own husband.

Chandra: Exactly, it takes a lot of evidence to get to the point that pushes us over that edge.

Seeing Lying Everywhere After Betrayal

Chandra: And it’s funny, because after all this has happened, I think everybody lies to me. Now, it’s really hard for me to trust anybody. I almost think if I could talk to my younger self, I would want to say don’t believe everything people tell you. Even and especially, not necessarily the people you trust the most. They might not always tell you the truth. Be willing to consider that.

Anne: I’m always telling women in this situation where they find out about exploitative material or something that’s a big lie, huge lie, to reconsider all the other things he said. So for example, if they said, “Well, I talked to my pastor, and he says I’m fine. And that I can, whatever.” Maybe consider, he never actually talked to the pastor. Maybe the pastor never even said that. “I said to my therapist, this, and the therapist said this.” Maybe consider the therapist didn’t say that at all.

There are so many things to consider that you think, okay, well, I caught him in this. And then he goes to the therapist, and the therapist said. And they don’t realize that perhaps the therapist never even said that. So we just don’t know what we don’t know in these situations. Because we hear so many lies. It is impossible to know where the truth starts and where the lies end, or vice versa.

The Importance Of Safety In Relationships When Your second Marriage Is Abusive Too

Anne: But what you can know is that this person is not trustworthy, and I need to be safe. And someone lying to me is a safety issue. Yeah, it’s, it’s not a moral issue. It’s not an annoying issue or an addiction issue. It’s a safety issue. You deserve to be in a relationship where you are emotionally and psychologically safe. Because it’s not psychologically or emotionally safe for you to be in a relationship where someone is lying to you. Especially if they’re constantly lying to you.

That is just super, super unsafe. And it’s also really bad for you spiritually because then you’re having to go against what God is trying to alarm you about. Like the spirit or your internal intuition, whatever you want to call it, is screaming out to you. Something isn’t right. And in order to trust your husband, in that instance, you’re having to go against the ultimate truth. And that is the spirit of God, if you’re religious or your own intuition, or the universe or whatever you want to call it.

In my faith, I call it the spirit, it’s trying to warn you someone is lying to you. Get to safety, right? Safety, safety, safety , but it’s so hard to determine when you’re not safe. That’s the problem. It sounds easy, but determining this is very hard. Yeah, I don’t blame anyone who is going through the difficult time of trying to sort out what is happening. Especially if they’re never getting the correct information.

Which is why I wrote The Living Free Workshop to give women a way to determine their husband’s character. To get enough space to observe what he’s doing.

The Journey To Emotional Safety Is Challenging

Anne: Now that you’re married to someone who is not abusive, I hear from people in that situation. I’ve never been in that situation, so I don’t know what it’s like. But for women in abuse situations, who don’t know it’s abuse. When they go to clergy or friends or therapists or whoever. A lot of people will tell them, “Well, you know, marriage is really hard.”

It’s a lot of hard work. And then I talk to women who have been in an abuse situation, and then they marry a man who’s non-abusive. And frequently, I would say 100 percent of the time, probably 99 percent of the time. They’re like, it’s not hard work at all. Like it’s a little work, but it’s not. I don’t even know what they’re talking about. Marriage does not have to be this grueling, terrible slog. Do you agree with that? How are, how are you feeling?

Chandra: Oh my, wholeheartedly. After the craziness, chaos, pain, and struggle of two abusive situations. I would say being married to a “normal” man is the most, I can’t even describe the difference. It’s so much easier. It’s so peaceful. And so different. And I want to just say this, the difference, being intimate with a man who is not caught up in it. Versus one who is, that is like night and day.

And that’s real love. When the man is not addicted, you are the apple of his eye. What I mean is you are the center of his world, because he’s not distracted and looking around at everything else. I wanted marriage to be like that.

There Is Nothing Wrong With Wanting To Be Loved When even when Your New Husband Is Abusive

Chandra: A situation with somebody that loves me, cares about me, and wants to focus on me. And love him in return. That’s what I wanted. And now I finally have that, and it’s like night and day.

Anne: Well, that’s what marriage is or should be, right?

Chandra: Yes, that’s what it should be.

Anne: The men who marry and don’t want to love their wife. They don’t commit to loving her. They don’t care. What they want is a slave, maybe? Or someone who does their dishes or something?

Chandra: Why do those men even get married? I don’t understand why they marry.

Anne: I don’t either, control, maybe?

Chandra: I’m not sure. Yeah, somebody to do the dishes and make dinner? I don’t know.

Anne: I think they perceive it as a control thing, right?

Chandra: Maybe.

Anne: Someone’s in their power, and many abusers like it when their wives have children. Because then they can entrap them, right? So from a religious standpoint, oh, marry, have kids, and abusers are like, great.! Because then she will be stuck with me forever, and getting away from me is very, very hard. So all the religious scripting too makes it difficult to recognize, like maybe having a kid with this guy is not the best idea.

You know, it’s so complex. And I appreciate you taking the time to share. And thank you for saying that, because the more women I talk to in healthy marriages. That are saying that, it makes me happy. And I just want to share that with everyone else.

Marriage To A Non-Abuser Is Not Hard

Anne: Like, when people say, well, you know, this is an average marriage. Because the average marriage is really, really hard.

Chandra: No, it’s not.

Anne: The answer would be, well, the average marriage to an abuser is, yeah, it is hard,

Chandra: But not a non-abuser.

Chandra: Nope, not a non-abuser. It’s totally different.

Anne: And I’m so happy for you that you’ve got that. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to share your story with us today.

Chandra: Yeah, thank you. Thank you for taking the time to hear it. It helps to talk about it.

It’s common for victims of emotional abuse to say, “He blamed me for the emotional abuse.” If this has happened to you, here’s what you need to know.

To see if you’re experiencing any one of the 19 types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

If you need help, the safety strategies in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop can help you protect yourself from emotional abuse.

This episode follows Junes’s Story:
Part 1: He Blamed Me for the Emotional Abuse – June’s Story (THIS EPISODE)
Part 2: Divorcing A Narcissist – June Checks In One Year Later

Transcript:He Blamed ME For The Emotional Abuse

Anne: June and I did this interview years ago. At this time, my ex was abusing me and my kids on almost a daily basis under the guise of co-parenting messages that were emotionally and psychologically abusive. He was undermining my children’s medical care, their extracurricular activities, and their school work. I constantly had a pit in my stomach.

Although I was actively trying to figure out how to deliver myself and my children from the abuse, the answers hadn’t come yet. When I listened to this episode again, I could hear the anger and frustration in my voice. I was doing everything right, at least everything I’d learned up until that point. I did everything the typical therapist and clergy told me to do.

Everyone told me that I should get over it and move on. They couldn’t wrap their head around the fact that I was still being emotionally and psychologically abused and my children were being undermined. Yet I was being blamed by the court and guardian ad litem.

Thankfully after years of study and prayer, I discovered emotional safety strategies that in stages delivered us from the abuse when I implemented them. I didn’t even have to go to court.

My children and I no longer have to deal with my emotionally abusive ex, and I still use these strategies. I wanted to make sure that my experience wasn’t a fluke and that these strategies weren’t just specifically for me. I tested the strategies for years with other sheroes who confirmed that they worked for them too.

Being Blamed For The Emotional Abuse

Once we knew they would work for any woman in any situation, I created the Living Free Workshop. In our BTR Group Sessions, women ask questions about how to implement these strategies and find support there.

Make sure you check out the Group Session schedule. I’m still angry that women trying to get to emotional and psychological safety are thwarted and blamed at every turn. I think we should all be angry about that. In this interview, a member of the BTR Community, June shared her story.

June found out that her husband used pornography and had affairs with multiple partners. He continued to do it after they were separated and going through the divorce process. At the time, June’s four children were very young and all of them have special needs to varying degrees.

https://youtube.com/shorts/ehlocZ9sLag

We’re going to start by talking about the challenge of having special needs children when your husband is emotionally and psychologically abusive. Then she shared her story of how she met her husband and how she discovered the truth. You guys are going to be really curious about June’s story. June, let’s start with you talking about your children.

The Challenges Of Parenting Special Needs Children When You’re Being Blamed For His Emotional Abuse

June: I have four children. They range from age nine to three, two boys and two girls, and they each have some level of special needs. My 9-year-old has autism spectrum disorder, sensory processing disorder, auditory processing disorder and also ADHD.

He’s probably been most impacted as far as special needs go and on the disability range. My other children have speech and language issues, and all of my children have been affected by trauma. Which is really important to note because the treatment for trauma impacted children as well as special needs children can overlap sometimes.

In my own home and in my own parenting, I do a lot of things to address that; things to help them feel safe, things to help them process that trauma and process those emotions. It really is no different, many times the work I do with my profoundly impacted child as opposed to the rest of my children that have suffered the trauma is the same.

Anne: Let’s talk about your nine-year-old son who is on the spectrum for a moment. Would you say that some of his behaviors have escalated due to the trauma in the home? Do you see that? They’re a little bit correlated.

Impact Of Emotional Abuse On Children”s Behavior

June: I see that my son who has autism can have a very hard time processing those things. He can have a more difficult time than the other kids processing the actual separation and divorce. He can tend to perseverate on that and ask why. Any answer that I give him won’t necessarily satisfy him.

Kids on the spectrum and kids with special needs in general, can all have sleep issues and insomnia and anxiety. I definitely have seen that increase in my son. Yes, to answer your question, some of the behaviors have escalated.

Anne: You’d mentioned sleep, when your son or all of your children are having sleep difficulties due to the trauma? How do you practice self-care in a situation that is extremely stressful and difficult?

June: I feel like it’s very important to teach my kids what emotions look like and how we process emotions. I would say, if I’m angry about something or if the kids are angry about something.

The Strategies I Used When He Blamed Me For Emotional Abuse

We will go outside and we will say, I’m angry and that is okay. Giving them those ways to process and handle those emotions is very healthy. It is very healthy for me to have that self-care time and that alone time should I need it. I do find ways and carve out little moments during my day that I can do that.

Self care is so important not only for anyone who’s going through a divorce due to abuse or separation or difficult time.It’s also just for a parent in general of a special needs child because oftentimes you never get a break.

It is important to take that upon yourself to learn how to get yourself some relief when you need it and be able to implement that in your daily routine. The things I do, I mean of course I love bubble baths, but when I’m out and about and dealing with a crisis situation with one of my kids, I can’t really go home and take a bubble bath and just stop everything.

I will practice mindfulness driving in the car like pulling over for five minutes to do some deep breathing.

I will do some grounding exercises and the most important thing is that I’ve taught my children how to do these things too.

They know little exercises there’s one that’s called Take Five where we go through the five senses, we pick out five things that we see. We pick out four things that we hear, three things that we touch, two things that we smell, one thing that we taste, and there’s definitely a neuroscience behind it.

The Legal Challenges Of Being Blamed

It switches your brain into getting out of the fight or flight symptoms and into a more grounded state. If any of my children are experiencing anxiety, we’ll do these simple exercises. We’ll do teddy bear breathing and all of these little cute names that we have for the things that we may do to help.

Anne: For women who are separated and or divorced, like June and I, do get a quote, “break” every other weekend when my kids go with my ex. June is in that same situation right now where her children go with her soon to be ex every other weekend. A lot of people think that divorce solves the problem. It does not. The abuse continues.

We still have to learn how to deal with it. In my case, the abuse is that he’s still lying about what happened. He’s still manipulating people. Also, there’s some physical things that are happening with my kids when they come home and they’ve felt physically unsafe with him. June is in that same situation.

There’s this dichotomy of really enjoying the break and having that be a time of self-care, but also really worrying about our children. When my children (who are neurotypical) come home their behaviors have escalated. It takes a while to get back to normal. They have trouble sleeping or they have trouble with school or trouble with getting up in the morning. It throws their whole schedule off.

There’s this dichotomy between I like the break but I want to protect my kids and it’s really hard. What to do with your emotions when the children are with an abusive dad?

Challenges Of Co-Parenting With An Emotionally Abusive Ex-Husband

June: Yes, and I do want to say that any child that is going through the divorce of their parents experiences trauma even in the best of circumstances. That is traumatic for a child and the impact of trauma, regardless of what it is, even if it’s a minor trauma, major trauma, it really depends on how the child perceives it and the impact is really the same.

Even though your children might be neurotypical, you can still do things to address the trauma that they may be facing, even if it is, like I said, in the best of circumstances. I really identify with what you’re saying. It’s so important to take that break when your children leave so that you can catch up on things that you need to do.

Cleaning for me is like self-care because so often I’m running day to day with the kids and we’re going to appointments and therapies and school and all sorts of things, and sometimes I don’t get a chance to clean something the way that I would need to.

I’ll do that on my weekends and I also take that time to be very reflective and to plan my week because I know I have a big week coming up. On my weekends, I will often look for chances to increase my own learning when it comes to my children with special needs. No one can be blamed if you just need to rest.

Continued Emotional Abuse Post-Divorce

I go to advocacy seminars, disability symposiums, trainings, and parenting classes. Many times in your own community, these things are completely free. You just have to know where to look.

Get involved in your community services board if your community has one, which most communities do. There are lots of organizations, nonprofit organizations in general that will offer these sort of things: National Alliance of Mental Illness and mental health organizations.

There are a lot of places that will give you free training for children who have special needs or just general children who have trauma or parenting neurotypical children with no trauma.

It breaks my heart to know that my children might be feeling unsafe. We have been in that situation before and if they have disclosed that they have felt unsafe or they’ve been uncomfortable with something when they’re not with me. I have really struggled on how to handle that, some things I will bring up to him and say, Hey, the kids have mentioned this. It very easily gets manipulated.

The next time that he sees them he will say, I never said that and you shouldn’t tell mom that, or something like that. In those situations, I’ve really just started to teach my kids what my husband’s gaslighting was without badmouthing him at all. That way I can’t be blamed for it.

I just let them know if someone tries to convince you that something didn’t happen that really did happen or that they didn’t say something that they really did and you know that to be real. That’s gaslighting and they appreciate learning that terminology.

Addressing Children’s Special Needs When Being Blamed For Emotional Abuse

They come to me and say, this person was gaslighting me today. I also try to give them and teach them the tools that they need to handle any situation that they might feel unsafe in.

If they are made to watch a movie that is inappropriate or scary, we will role play and I’ll say, what can you do in this situation? The answers that they come up with are great. They say, I can leave the room. I can say, I don’t want to watch this, I tell them I can be blamed for it not being allowed. You can go in your room and play Legos, or close your eyes and think happy thoughts.

Giving them the tools for handling those difficult situations that I have no control over is so important. I do the same thing for my autistic child that I do for the rest of my children, they can all use those tools and effectively implement them in the situations that they’re in.

Anne: Yeah,I have found that has really helped too. Teaching them about gaslighting, they come home and tell me there was a gaslighting situation or this is what happened, and it was really weird, Mom. We felt really uncomfortable. I am so grateful that they’re starting to see that and that they can tell me how they feel about it.

They have words now to describe what is happening to them. By the way, a lot of people ask when I tell them the situation, they’re like, what? He still can take the kids every other weekend even though he’s done this, this and you had a protective order and he was arrested?

When Legal Proceedings Blame The Victim

A lot of people don’t understand that in many ways the law protects abusers and it’s super traumatic when you start going through the divorce process thinking, oh, we’ll finally feel peace. You start realizing that maybe your attorney or the judge or other people don’t understand abuse. What they’re deciding is actually keeping your kids in a harmful situation.

A lot of people don’t realize that. Then there’s also the abuser’s family who is supportive of him and thinks he’s great. My ex hit my son in the face while playing a video game. My ex’s mother, he lives with his parents, used it as an opportunity to tell my ex (My son overheard.) that my son should be blamed because he must be an addict, which hurt him so much.

He said, I feel so unsafe around grandma. She doesn’t understand the situation. She didn’t even hear the whole truth of it, but immediately she threw me under the bus and supported her abusive son. He came home and told me that. In your case, it even came down to clergy and your faith community.

I just want to put out there that a child with autism or I have another friend who has a daughter who has Down syndrome, can have a Mom who is going through this with her abusive spouse. Many other women that I know have a disabled child while an abusive husband in the home is currently lying and manipulating. He’s currently angry.

What It Feels Like To Parent With An Emotional Abuser

He’s currently looking at online content and a lot of people see the disability and women feel free to talk about the disability, but they don’t want to talk about what’s happening with their spouse. Can you talk about in the past when you didn’t understand you were being abused and the situation in the context of having a child with special needs?

June: There was definitely this intersection where I was handling the situation with my children that have special needs and really trying to learn what I could and advocate for them in the school system and educationally. Also, I was very wrapped up in my marriage failing and why my husband was doing these things and what I could do to help that situation.

We went to marriage counseling and I went to counseling on my own. I learned all I could about problematic behaviors, affairs. I really delved into it all and took it upon myself to try to understand how I could possibly save our marriage and our family and help him.

The Impact of Emotional Abuse

I very much wanted him to succeed and to be a healthy person because I believe that abusive people can change and I believe that people can make mistakes and right those wrongs. I began to learn about abuse.

It was very clear that this situation I was in was taking away from my ability to be the best parent I could be for my own children.

I spent so much time in trauma over and over and over again, Trauma from daily verbal abuse and from emotional manipulation, coercion, spiritual abuse to awful degrees. It impacted my ability to advocate and look into the issues that were going on with my own children and to really be present for that.

Once I realized that was the case saw that this intersection was happening, it was a collision, I couldn’t do both. My son didn’t talk until he was about five years old. He used sign language up until that point. When he did start talking, he jumped right into speaking full sentences and parroting people and echoing what other people were saying.

My son heard the names my husband called me. When I realized that my son would repeat that very soon because he was talking. They were subjected to hearing it, was the point for me that this is not getting any better. In fact, it’s getting worse and this is normalized for my children. I would not be blamed for continuing to expose him to that.

Learning From A Childrens Therapist

How it was impacting my ability to also parent my children in a healthy way was the basis for preparing myself that I might have to be a single mom one day.

Anne: Have you seen your children’s behaviors improve since you started setting a boundary around your husband’s abusive behaviors?

June: Yes, I love talking about this because it is truly amazing when you receive the help that you need and you receive the care and the love and that you feel like you belong somewhere and you feel like people understand you. When I left my marriage, my children and I had all received services at a center for abused women and their children.

Part of this was I would go to a support group and the kids would go to children’s support group. It was led by child therapists and social workers, and I took advantage of their amazing training. I would meet with the child therapists alone on a different day to ask them, how can I help my children going through this very, very difficult and traumatic situation?

I was not to be blamed. The things that I learned from that and the things that my children learned just from going to a support group like that with other children who were experiencing similar things were amazing.

Encouragement For Women In Similar Emotionally Abusive Situations

One of the things we did was to implement a safe space in our home. We set up a little tent in the corner of one of our rooms. It has pillows and it has all sorts of sensory things, bean bags and smelly candles and Play-Doh. It’s like a designated space for working through those things that they feel.

We also use time-ins instead of time-outs, if one of my children is having some difficult behaviors or being very irritable or not getting along with the other children. Instead of putting them in timeout, their behavior is a call for help and their behavior is communication. The first thing about trauma-informed care is that all behavior is communication.

What my child is communicating with me at that time when they are acting out is that they need help processing what they’re feeling. Instead of being blamed they are being helped.

I take them aside and we do an emotional check-in or we’ll play a short game about what they felt that day. Tell me a time that you felt brave, or lonely, or happy today. Those times we do that and set aside for even just a five minute conversation, can help push the reset button on their behavior.

It really gets them back on track where they need to be. That is a coping mechanism that is teaching them emotional intelligence and how to process those feelings.

Anne: For other women who have a child with special needs, who find themselves in an abusive situation. They start realizing that these fights that they’re getting into with their spouse are actually verbal abuse. Their husband is lying or using without their knowledge. What advice would you give them?

Challenges In Being Blamed: Leaving An Emotionally Abusive Husband

June: I would definitely say to inform yourself and to educate yourself. The more empowered that you can be in your situation to identify what is going on, the better off you will be in handling whatever happens and whatever you decide and whatever comes your way. I also feel like it is essential to stress that I am a much better parent being out of that situation.

I can now focus on my children. It’s like this whole new world has opened up to me about kiddos that deal with trauma and special needs and how to best mentor them and help them through these things and advocate for them.

It takes advocacy on every level in the community, in schools, even in churches. You really have to educate other people and you as the parent are the expert on your child and being in an abusive relationship can hinder that. It can take away some of the ability that you have to really focus on the children that need it.

I cannot stress enough how much my parenting has changed. How much my life has really opened up. My eyes have opened up to a whole new world helping children with special needs or children with trauma or any child in the best and healthiest way.

Anne: As she shares her story, take deep breaths and remember that she is on her way to safety and will get there eventually, getting to safety is a journey. Also, before we start, I want to talk about how women start this journey. They don’t think their husbands are abusive. Being blamed is so painful. They think, okay, we’ve got this problem, he’s got an anger problem or he has an addiction problem, the trauma symptoms aren’t as bad.

Finding Harmful Content On Her Husband’s Computer

Trauma symptoms are lower because a woman thinks that the situation is manageable or that things can get better. Then as she learns more and realizes that it’s abuse and starts to try to confront the abuser and the abuse gets worse, then the trauma gets worse. When you set a boundary around the abuse and it doesn’t stop, but it escalates, then the trauma becomes even worse.

For listeners, I don’t want anyone to think, oh, things are getting worse. This is really bad, and so it’s the wrong thing to do. It’s the right thing to do and it’s the only way out. June, let’s talk about how you met your husband and when you first suspected that he was using exploitative content.

June: I met my husband when I was in college and everything seemed great. He was the man of my dreams. I was young, in my early twenties, when he came along.

I didn’t have too much of a problem with it because he came across so well, my family liked him. He checked all the boxes that I was raised to believe meant he was a safe and worthy person. We ended up getting married, and I remember I was sitting on the bed in our first year of marriage using his computer for something, and I happened to look in one of the files and I saw a bunch of photos from a topless beach.

Recognizing When He Blames YOU For The Emotional Abuse

I was shocked. It was very clear that these were homemade photos. It wasn’t like he downloaded these, this was like homemade photos taken of women on this topless beach. I had known that he had spent some time in a place that had a topless beach. He was in some of the pictures with a friend of his, so I confronted him about it and he gaslit that away and manipulated it and said, oh, he blamed his friend.

He just never deleted them from the device. Looking back, that was my first real D-Day. That was such a little thing compared to everything that has happened since, but that was definitely a huge red flag. If I could go back and speak to the former June in that time, I would teach her that that was a huge red flag and to pay a lot closer attention than she did.

Anne: Why do you think women in this situation dismiss those little experiences? They’re really big experiences, but why do we say they’re little? Not that they should be blamed.

June: I think that we want to believe in the good of people and someone doing something like that, that’s voyeuristic. I would say it’s also stalking, but it goes beyond that. We don’t want to believe that anyone is capable of that and that’s foreign. It’s foreign to me because I have no propensity to really do that, and so we want to believe the best in people.

The Extent Of Being Blamed For Emotional Abuse

These are men that we love. We want to save our families. We want everyone to be healthy and happy. It’s not hard for someone to come in and say, Hey, these weren’t my pictures. Here’s what happened, and give us an explanation. For us to just take them at their word and believe it. Definitely throughout our dating and throughout our marriage, there was abuse all along.

I had reached out to people. I’d reached out to my parents, to friends and other family members. I told them what was going on.

He called very, very horrific names. I remember one time even when we were dating. We had been in a fight about something and I went into the bathroom, shut the door and was sitting down on the floor with the lights off. He came in there and was just yelling over me, the B word over and over and over again. I was huddled in this corner, oh my gosh, what is he doing?

We had probably only been dating a few months by the time that situation had happened, and still he had said he was sorry afterwards. There was a point when he came into my apartment and decorated my whole room with rose petals. I look back, this is a textbook abusive cycle, the love bombing, the apologies.

Then the explosion and the honeymoon phase and then building up the tension and the explosion and the love bombing. It was just very much like that, but every time he would apologize. He just blamed something else for his behavior.

Being Stuck In The Abuse Cycle With Your Husband

I would stay because he’d said he would get better and then it would happen again. Then he would apologize and I would stay and every time that he apologized, things did get better until the next time..

You become invested in how the relationship is. In the first year of marriage, it was a lot of verbal abuse. I would tell people, and nobody else really picked up on it. They were like, marriage is hard.

Anne: He must be stressed.

June: And all this while, I found out later, he was calling friends and family members and gaining rapport with them. Saying that he’s concerned about June because she seems like she’s depressed and really gaslighting me to my family, really for the next 12 years he blamed me. He had done this as the abuse was on and off just like an abusive cycle would be.

All the while he was gaining this trust of my family and of my friends when things escalated to the point that I had to leave. That made it extremely difficult for me because I did not trust some of my family at that point.

Anne: Talk about when you actually started realizing that the behaviors that you were seeing were abusive as opposed to just thinking that he had an anger problem or that he was a addict. Talk about how you made that shift to realizing that these things were abusive.

Seeking Social Support During Divorce From An Emotionally Abusive Man

June: There were things all along the way that I look back on, these were all red flags and I missed them. He would chat online inappropriately with women and he would tell me about it. I don’t know why I didn’t have the capacity to understand what was going on, like I said, he would always apologize and I would always stay.

It was not until I had a friend that reached out to me and confided in me about her situation with her husband who has some very, very problematic behaviors, use and infidelity and things like that, voyeurism. She said, I just have a feeling that I need to be there for you and ask you if you’ve ever thought that your husband is like that. I don’t know what she picked up from my husband.

She didn’t really know him very well, and maybe it was things that she picked up on in me. There was definitely a change when I was going through some things privately that maybe she could pick up on. She just shared her story and that night I came home and I just asked my husband, is this an issue for you?

I started tying some of those situations together. There was a time that he had come home and I was 37 weeks pregnant. He said, this woman attacked me in my office, and I was like, oh my gosh, this sounds so dangerous. She was trying to come on to him he blamed her. Well, in reality, I found out that they had been conducting an affair on the hospital’s messaging system.

When You’re Blamed For Your Own Emotional Abuse

He had gone to her office, shut the door and locked it, and there was some kind of encounter, and I was 37 weeks pregnant. When I found that out, he shrugged it off. He had no idea what was going on, and he just blamed her. We are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We went to our ecclesiastical leader who is called the bishop in our church.

He has really no training to be able to identify abuse or handle infidelity or marital problems.

He is a volunteer. We are going to him, and now I look back and I’m thinking, this situation is just so prime for mishandling. Here we are, we’re talking to someone about this huge situation, and yet nobody really picked up on the gravity of it. We went to our bishop and learned some more things about the situation that I felt like I needed to know.

I think my bishop was kind of in shock. He didn’t really know what to say. My husband talked his way out of it. I was 37 weeks pregnant. This was my fourth child. I had three other children under the age of five at the time, one of whom had profound special needs.

Finding BTR.ORG & Feeling Relief From The Blame

There’s no way I believed him when he said it was not his fault. We had our baby and things kind of went back to normal and normal for us. Which was a lot of abuse. I just remember a few months after my baby was born, it was the summer and I had taken all of my kids to go see a movie in the park and to play.

My husband was at work and he had just been nasty to me and hanging up on me all day. I’m just thinking, what did I do? What is going on with him and how do I deal with this situation? The confusion was extremely difficult. After that, I started learning more about addiction, behaviors, use.

I found BTR, which was a beacon of light to me in this situation. I listened to all of the podcasts every single week, I would just wait for the next one to come out. For the first time I had a label of what I was feeling. I didn’t know what this was. When I learned about betrayal trauma, I could understand these symptoms.

This is trauma that happens to someone when they are in the situation of being betrayed by someone that they trust implicitly. When I would listen to the BTR episodes, I remember listening to your story and how horrific it was, but also at the same time, I didn’t place myself in that category. I still didn’t, but the more that I listened and the more that you would talk about covert abuse, the more that connected with me up to that point.

I Was Being Blamed: Escalation of Abuse

There was no outright physical abuse yet. The covert abuse that you would describe was very, very much the same of what I was experiencing. The manipulation and the lying and the psychological harm, even the spiritual abuse. That is one thing that I started connecting with and learning about, and that opened my eyes to seeing and really identifying that I was in a very bad abusive relationship.

Anne: You’re listening to me. I’m sharing my story. You’re thinking, whoa, I’m really relating to this. When did his behaviors escalate to actual physical violence?

June: His behaviors started escalating when I started finding out more and more about some of the extreme problems that he was having. I found out about several inappropriate relationships that he had had with people at his work. He was in a very powerful position. These were people who were under him, so it was an abuse of power. He always blamed the women.

He’s actually licensed also by the state. I knew that could be a very bad situation for him as far as that goes. When I started finding out about this, he would come to tell me and confess these things. It was almost as a way of him gaining my trust.

Anne: My ex did the same thing. He would tell me part of it. The way he would say it was manipulating it so I would view it in a certain way to help him rather than me. I realized later that this was dangerous. What was happening probably should have been reported to the police.

Realities Of Divorcing An Emotional Abuser

Anne: My ex did the same thing. He would tell me part of it. He would say it was manipulating it so I would view it in a certain way to help him rather than me. I realized later that this was dangerous. What was happening probably should have been reported to the police.

June: Exactly. So he would come and tell me these things and say, “ There’s an inappropriate encounter with someone at his work.”, or “This woman sent me these unsolicited pictures of her in a compromising position” or “wearing nothing”. He always blamed the women.These things all accumulated. My husband ended up moving out for two months or so.

He was in therapy with a therapist who claimed to treat addiction and problematic behaviors and everything. I had started therapy on my own and we had gone to therapy together with each of our therapists. They were at the same facility. We had met with them maybe once or twice. My therapist easily identified that I was in an abusive situation. His therapist did not.

Anne: Yeah, we’ve noticed that so much with so-called Addiction Experts. They do not identify the abuse and they’re not helping keep the wives of addicts safe at all. It’s really actually pretty scary and dangerous

June: We were really trying to work things out. He was going to SA meetings and he had shown a lot of humility and improvement. I remember thinking, if this is the man that could be with me all the time, that is who I want. He did move back in and we had a pretty good, I’d say six to eight months of progress.

Establishing Safety During Abuse & Blame

Then things started to slip again, and it was more verbal abuse that started creeping in. It was more psychological abuse. It was these things that would start to come back in and I would ask him, is anything going on with people at work? These abusive behaviors are a really, really big red flag for me.

I had tied it altogether at that point, I had tied the verbal abuse to the other problematic behaviors, and he just insisted, no, no, it wasn’t.

He just came to me one day out of the blue and said, I have actually been lying to you and there’s three women who I’ve had inappropriate relationships with off and on. I am using again, and it was like a D-Day all over again. I’ve given him my trust in thinking he’s a safe person. I’ve let him move back in.

I have overcome part of that betrayal trauma to be able to be intimate with him again and to be able to really want to work on our marriage.

When I found that out, it was a huge D date. You have been lying to me this whole time and you are not a safe person, and at that time, I asked him to move out again. He wouldn’t. He became very mean, very irate, very scary. I received a message from somebody anonymously about his reputation at his workplace and that he made people feel uncomfortable.

There was even one that described a certain situation where he assaulted a female in this closet at work. Once again he blamed her. He was sleeping downstairs, and I went downstairs and I asked him about this and he demanded to see my phone.

June Discovers Even More Abuse & Her Husband Blamed Her

I said, no, you can’t see my phone, and I went upstairs and he was running after me. At that point, I was very, very scared. I had just found out that this person was very unsafe.

Also had confirmation of this from someone who worked with him, and here he was running after me trying to get my phone. I ran upstairs, he pushed me into a wall. He tackled me. He got my phone. I scratched him. I’m five five and I weigh 140 pounds. He’s six six and he weighs 220, so I did whatever I could. I was very, very scared for my life because I had no phone.

I ran outside to a neighbor’s house and called the police. When the police came, they looked at him and they looked at me and he had a scratch mark. It was a male police officer and I was incoherent. I was in trauma, I couldn’t really describe anything of what had happened, I was just trying to process it myself. I had no visible bruising yet, or marks or anything that was bleeding. That did show up a few days later.

He went inside and my husband was just bawling and he blamed me for the whole thing. The police officer said, well, I have to take you away because he has these visible injuries, and so I was taken away that night. I was arrested and sat in the holding area for just a few hours and then they let me go back home. I didn’t have anyone that I could call to pick me up.

Support To Face Blame During Divorce

I have no family around. Nobody really knew what was going on in my situation in my marriage. I felt very much a sense of shame and I couldn’t call anyone and say, I’ve been arrested. Come and pick me up. There was just nobody that would understand that. My husband did call one of his friends who was actually from our church. Looking back, I see that he had set this up.

The more empowered I would become, he would say the more crazy I would get to this friend, and so I think he could see that I was becoming empowered and stronger and being able to identify abuse. At the same time, he was telling people that I was becoming more depressed or more and more angry.

I retained a lawyer and I had injuries of my own, which I had someone take pictures of, and that case was dismissed, but I knew I was in a very unsafe situation. At the library I did research on domestic violence and abuse. I learned that 40% of women who are in abusive relationships, had their partner blamed them and have them arrested for abuse for fighting back.

Suddenly in the shame of that situation, I was able to understand that this was no fault of my own. I also felt more empowered and safer to reach out to people and say, look, my husband did this to me and he had me arrested. He accused me of abuse, and I slowly started gaining support of a few people just in a very close knit circle that I could trust and could see what was going on.

I Was Blamed By My Clergy For His Abuse

It was just a few months after that things really started escalating. My husband started using my arrest as leverage. He said that if I ever left, he would get custody of our children have this history. He blamed me for the whole situation, he said I would be out on the street. I wouldn’t have anywhere to live. It was very much held over me. The abuse just escalated from that point. He got a free pass.

I did reach out to the bishop when I found out about more incidents and many other indiscretions, and my husband and I went to meet with the bishop at that point. After my arrest and after he had confessed a bunch of things to me. The bishop was meeting with my husband privately. They met for probably about 45 minutes before the door finally opened.

I went in and I said, I am really at my wit’s end. I’m thinking that this is not a safe situation and I need support. The bishop looked at me and he said, you need to be a better wife and mom and your husband has told me everything that has happened. You are angry. He called me a feminist.

Anne: Which is not a bad word, by the way. Great word. Thank you for the compliment, sir.

When Your Church Community Won’t Protect You From Abuse

June: It became clear that my husband had gone in there and just said all of these things. June wants to go back to school and I don’t feel like she needs to do that. The bishop said, you don’t need to go back and get your master’s degree. What are you even thinking? You need to just be a better wife and mom and your husband is dissatisfied, he blamed me for my husbands actions. You need to give him more.

Basically, I very clearly saw what was happening. I started just speaking my mind and I said, this is not okay. You cannot be saying this. This is not okay. My bishop started to ask me details of things that I had done when I was a teenager. He said, your husband said that you were not faithful. I said things I did as a teenager have no bearing on any of this.

First of all, I’m a married mother of four and I’m 34 years old. You do not need to be asking me these questions. I didn’t even have the wherewithal to understand what he was doing. I look back now and I see that shamed me for something that I had done a long time ago.

He was trying to shame me into stopping the complaints or pointing the finger about how abusive my husband was.

When The Blame Doesn’t Stop

Anne: He was trying to silence you, right, and say, look, you are the one that’s the problem. Stop causing all this hullabaloo and take your place as a wife and mother. He blamed you for the abuse.

June: The questioning continued. My bishop said that if I submitted myself to him that he could fix me and that he has a very special way with women. That he has insight into women and that he has a unique ability to fix them and fix their problems and help them. It was so far out that I could identify it as inappropriate.

I went there thinking that I would feel safe and protected and loved, and I knew that something was going terribly, terribly wrong. I didn’t have the language to say, this is harassment. It’s inappropriate questioning. It is verbal abuse. It is blaming, it’s rationalizing, it’s deflecting. It’s projecting. I can name exactly what was happening, but at that time I didn’t.

It was so confusing to me why he was asking me these things and why he was taking the position that he did.

I eventually tried to teach him a little bit about trauma, use, infidelity, and abuse and how it all ties in together. He stood up, his face got very red, he yelled at me.

Secondary Emotional Abuse, Being Blamed By Clergy

He said, I’m exhausted and I don’t know what else you want from me. I’m trying to take care of all of these people and you’re making my job difficult and you need to listen to me.

It was very scary, I came to him disclosing that I had experienced verbal abuse. That was very triggering for me. It was very, very traumatizing. I got up out of his office and I actually ran out of the church. It was probably 11 o’clock at night at that point. Nobody else was there.

I had immediately called a friend and I called my mom and explained what happened. From that point on, I had tried to take it up to the person above him. Which is the stake president, like a hierarchy, and explain what happened. This bishop’s behavior, and his questioning was inappropriate. Things are happening in my home that are terribly wrong and I need some help.

The stake president said, I don’t believe the bishop did that. I tried. I tried to report to whoever I could report it to, but there’s really nothing else I could do.

Anne: This story is getting really intense, I’m just going to recap really quickly. She starts recognizing that her husband is abusive. Goes in to see if she can get some help from her clergy, and ends up being emotionally abused by her clergy as well. At this point, June, you’re realizing that you can’t get help from clergy and you need to turn somewhere else. What do you do next?

Moving Forward, Despite Emotional Abuse With Divorce Proceedings

June: I start educating myself. I listened to BTR, I found a lot of comfort and guidance in really identifying the behaviors that I was seeing in my own home from my husband as abusive behaviors. I became empowered enough and informed enough and I did initiate separation. His behavior escalated phenomenally during that time. The name calling was getting much worse.

I had no lawyer. We had no legal separation. I had consulted a couple of lawyers, trying to figure out what the situation would be like. I do suggest that informing yourself is paramount, it’s key. When we would exchange the children, he would come into my home and yell and throw things around.

He berated me for the children’s clothing. When he moved out, he packed up all of his guns and laid them in the hallway.

The kids and I were in the house and it was very obvious that he was doing that as physical intimidation. One day he picked up the kids. He called me horrific names. My children were there. He came inside my house. He wanted to pack up some of their clothes because he said I didn’t do it right.

It was demeaning, demanding, very scary behavior. After seeing this behavior, I did not feel safe sending my kids with him. They were all in the car and I went and I got in the car with them and he grabbed me from the car and threw me on the driveway in front of my children. Then he drove away with my kids in the car. He left me lying on the driveway. I was hysterical, traumatized.

When Law Enforcement Blames The Victim

He injured me. I had an abrasion on my elbow. He tore my clothes in several places. I had bruising on my hip. I called the police. The police came. It was so scary because of what had happened last time when I called the police. My injuries were visible at this point. He still had the children.

The police officer came. He assessed the situation. He talked to my husband who has a prominent position in our community, and he introduced himself with his title, which is impressive to people. I remained calm and I told the police officer what happened. I showed him my injuries and the police officer said that he could leave. The children ended up staying with me, which I was grateful for.

I still to this day have no idea how he didn’t get arrested given the injuries.

Anne: Manipulated the law enforcement.

June: That weekend he called me several times. The next day he came to my house, tried to get in the door, knocking on the door, calling friends and family of mine. He called a bunch of our friends and told them that I was crazy. Meanwhile, I am just trying to figure out how I’m going to survive this situation with an obviously dangerous and abusive person.

I had no time to call anybody to make them see my side of it. That was just not in my capacity. I had this injury, trying to figure out what in the world I needed to do to keep myself and my family safe. I was able to get a restraining order.

The Consequences Of Emotional Abuse

Anne: How did you feel when you went to file the protective order? Did you feel like, what am I doing? How is this happening?

June: Yeah. I was very scared that I wouldn’t be believed first of all because that is what was happening all around me. I was being blamed as the instigator, the angry and scorned woman. Of course I had felt angry. My anger was not driving any of this. My need for safety was.

Anne: By the way, this story. I know it’s horrific and difficult for our listeners to hear this. This is really typical for abuse victims. This period of confusion and what is happening, and he’s blamed you and nobody can understand this is exactly what happened. It happened to me too, but this type of manipulation and coercion with people around is exactly what we start to see. Women can feel like they’re going crazy.

June: Yes, he left me on the side of the road several times when he got angry at me in the car. He would just pull over and kick me out of the car and I would be left there for hours, in different places in front of my children. He withdrew money from our bank account, so I couldn’t buy groceries at this point. I couldn’t buy a birthday cake for my child who had a birthday that day.

He was of course very verbally abusive, but mentally and psychologically and socially aggressive to me and in ways that I couldn’t even recognize because I didn’t know it was going on.

Emotional Abuse & Blame Began When She First Got Married

I didn’t know that he was calling our mutual friends without me present and telling them these stories and painting me as this person who had all of these mental issues.

He would also very frequently embarrass me in public situations that we were together, and make jokes at my expense. He would demean me and be very coercive, trying to get me to do things that I wasn’t comfortable with.

Anne: When you started recognizing the behaviors, did you recognize that he was this way all along, but you just hadn’t seen it?

June: Yes. The trauma became so much greater when I started realizing that I his abuse started from the beginning. On our honeymoon to a foreign country he told me he wanted a divorce. What was he even talking about?

He wanted to leave me in the jungle, alone, in this foreign country. I had no idea how to speak their language or anything. It was very scary. Things like that were happening, but then I would also be so grateful when he would make it right and when he wouldn’t behave in those ways.

It was like this huge relief, it’s almost like he became accustomed to the love bombing and the apology and the honeymoon period that happens.

Getting A Restraining Order But Still He Blamed Me For The Emotional Abuse

The restraining order was for myself and my children. For three days I knew that we were to be safe and secure and left alone. I was unsure if he would even abide by the restraining order. Then, I did make the decision to file for divorce at that point. I went to my parent’s house with my children.

My parents live in a different part of the country, but legally I knew that I needed that protection. I needed to go ahead and file for the divorce and be away from the situation. My children and I left in the middle of the night. We had nothing really packed. We drove for a few days and lived with my parents for about four months. While I filed the paperwork for the actual divorce.

It was over the summer. The kids were in summer camps and in all sorts of activities. I received great services from a women’s center. My children received great services at the same place, and it was very much a time of healing and a time of safety and security. Now, it’s not to say that he didn’t abuse that situation.

He would call every day and demanded that it would be on video, which I did facilitate because I was trying to remain reasonable. He would call at all hours of the day, even into the night. Once I couldn’t answer my phone and he called the police to do a well child check in the middle of the night, which was very scary to my children and to me.

My Emotionally Abusive Husband Cut Of Access To Money

I had asked him also for money to buy diapers for my children, pay for medication and pay for food. I had very little money with me, but I had no means of paying for those things. Before I left in fact, he had taken all of the money that we had, cut me off and transferred it to an account that I did not have access to.

June: I was living on credit cards,

Anne: Took all the money away so you can’t even buy groceries, right? Yeah, that happened to me.

June: I had started on food stamps when I went to this different state. It was purely by knowing that he would not make this right. By getting the restraining order and setting boundaries, his behavior escalated. That was really an answer to me that I did the right thing, because he wasn’t supporting his children. I donated plasma to get some money. We were living with my parents. They supported me and my four children.

At that point, I really liked where we were living. We were around family. His family had also lived nearby. We had seen his family when we were out there. The kids saw their cousins and they were excited about that. I am in a state that very much expects parents to co-parent and to work with each other. It was clear that we would not be able to agree or decide on something that was reasonable together.

Being Blamed By The Court System

We went to court. Unfortunately, there is not a way that the law identifies covert abuse or emotional abuse.

Anne: We see that over and over again where the law does not protect victims of emotional abuse from perpetrators. If there’s no physical evidence and he’s lying and manipulating, there’s no protection for victims. That leaves all of the burden of protecting yourself on the victims themselves.

June: The courts like to give people a chance

Anne: That’s never helpful. If the court held them accountable, it would be more helpful to get the perpetrator to actually make changes and for the victim to be safe.

I think there’s a serious problem in our country right now protecting abusers and it’s scary for the victims.

June: When I walked into the courthouse for our hearing, I didn’t know how it was going to go, and I immediately saw a friend of mine. We had gone to church together and we had done a few other things. She was in a similar situation. She had divorced an abusive person who had an affair. I saw her at the courthouse and she wouldn’t look at me.

My first initial thought was like, oh my goodness, what is she doing here? Maybe she’s here to say hi to me or to support me. She was there with my husband and she was a witness.

Blamed Even By Friend’s

She testified that I planned to kidnap my kids.

When that happened, I put it together that they were in a relationship, they were having an affair. I had some other information from a few other people, other evidences of that. I realized what was happening. He manipulated her and blamed me. She did not know the reality of the situation, she knew about the abuse. She knew about the verbal abuse.

I confided in her my fear and I said, I need to have a plan in place, and so that was the extent of the conversation. She had come to court and said that I had planned to kidnap my kids and make up the assault. My husband manipulated her and blamed me.

The damage she caused to me and my children was irreparable. That was a very traumatic moment. It was horrific to realize that while I was in this really dire situation, living with my parents, with my four kids, that he was here having an affair with her and choosing not to support his kids and actively working to discredit me with an employee of the city.

Divorce Proceedings With Husband Still Perpetrating Emotional Abuse

Anne: Can you talk about the divorce proceedings and how fighting a narcissist for custody has played out? t

June: Yes, so I came back here and trying to co-parent. My children had experienced trauma, they had anxiety. They were unsure of what kind of situation we were coming back to. I wanted to make that as smooth as I could for them. When I did get back here, I came to the home that I would be living in. It was unkempt.

He took anything he wanted, furniture, valuables. Also, he had left a piece of chewed gum as a message to me. He always said divorced women were like chewed gum. He had disassembled locks and doorknobs from the house.

There were feminine products that were clogging the plumbing of the house.

He had taken the liberty of having people in the church move my personal belongings, my intimate clothing and my children’s clothing. We had no discussion about it. That kind of set the stage for how the period of time since I’ve been back has gone.

Emotional Abuse, Blame From Clergy

He does these things blatantly and there really is no recourse. I’ve asked him for some of my belongings and some of the things that he took without permission. I didn’t get any of that back. That’s been a hard thing. When I did return, I went to church. I made the effort to co-parent and keep my kids as stable as possible.

When I went back to see this bishop. I was actually with my father and he went in with me. I felt safer because my dad was there with me.

Anne: For those of you not familiar with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Instead of choosing the congregation that you go to. You find out where your congregation boundaries are and you go there.

That’s why June didn’t just go to a different church because her boundaries were those particular boundaries and that’s what everyone does within the church. I wanted to give you some background on that as to why she didn’t think, oh, I’ll just go somewhere else.

June: Yes, exactly. I went to my bishop with my father. I said, I don’t know if you know about the situation, but I’m happy to share with you the things that have happened and what my children and I have been through. We’re going to be coming to church here. He stopped me and said, I know that you kidnapped your kids.

Clergy & Church Community Did Not Help, Instead Blamed Me For The Emotional Abuse

Everyone says that you kidnapped your kids and you have got a serious issue. It was so uncomfortable. I said to him, I didn’t kidnap my own children. First of all, I had a restraining order. Would you like to see it? And I said, my husband is not paying support. He hasn’t been supporting us. I don’t think he should have a calling.

The bishop said, I don’t care about any of that. That stuff does not matter. He didn’t want to see any of the documentation I had. I mentioned to him that my husband was having an affair with another single woman in the ward, and he had no intention of discussing any of that. It was so uncomfortable. By that time I had really learned how to set boundaries and I saw that this was not a good situation.

I just stopped the entire discussion and left. The bishop didn’t hear my side of the story or look at any of the evidence that I had. He had made his mind up. There were a couple of other things that had happened from that point on in our church.

The women have an organization called Relief Society, it is for providing support for the women in the church and those who are in need and ministering to women.

When Church Blamed Me & Refused To Help

I had called the president of the Relief Society and reached out to her about my situation. My husband was still not paying support. We were going to have to garnishee his wages. That could take a period of time to set up.

I was very much in need at that point, I exhausted all of my credit cards, all of my resources that I had. I was in need of food for my children and had nothing to pay for any other bills. If I can get some food for my children for the next few weeks, that is one weight that I don’t have to worry about, at least for right now.

Anne: The church has a bishop’s storehouse where members of the church who are in need can get food, and that’s what she’s talking about.

June: The Relief Society met with me. We had a discussion. I described what was going on, I did not say that my husband was abusive. I didn’t berate or demean the bishop in any way, I just explained to her my need and she called me up a few days later.

She said she had spoken with the bishop and she didn’t believe that my husband could afford to pay the support that the court ordered. The bishop was also saying this. I told her I actually have no money. It was clear that the bishop had that information from my husband. Clearly my husband said he couldn’t afford to pay for it.

Husband’s Emotional Abuse Expands To Clergy

He declined to help me and my children with food. They said, I need my children to have some food. That’s it. He said, you’re not being truthful with me. You’re not being honest. Your husband said that he would never leave you or the children in this situation.

He was just believing my husband. I said, he hasn’t given me anything. I have not received anything. He took a lot of the food that was in this house. I have texts and emails of many of these interactions. The bishop came to me a few days later and wanted me to meet with one of his counselors who is actually a lawyer. I had reached out to my own lawyer at that point.

She said, that is grounds for filing a complaint against that lawyer.

That’s grounds for disbarment. You cannot do that. We have an open custody case and divorce proceedings and no one should be asking you to meet with someone else who is a lawyer. I declined to do that. The bishop said that he wanted to go over my finances and that the lawyer, his counselor would be there to help.

I showed the bishop screenshots of my bank account and the bills that that I had no way to pay. He said, you can have some food. I think I had two orders, and then I went to place an order with the Relief Society president. At 10 o’clock at night, and the bishop actually texted me back and said, there will be no more food. If you need food, you need to come in and meet with me and the state president.

Emotional Abuse When The Chuch Blames Me

These were the same leaders. One of them had abused me and the other had enabled that abuse, and so I was not going to meet with them under any circumstances alone or with someone. That was not a situation I was going to put myself in. He cut off the food and my children and I didn’t receive any more assistance in that manner from my church. I’ll tell you, that was a very, very dark time.

That was very, very difficult. The year before that we paid 10% of our income to the church in voluntary donations for tithes. Here I was now in this situation having no income for myself. My husband wasn’t paying the support and I needed basic things for my children.

I became a bad person for even asking for that and labeled a liar. I look back now and it is a miracle that I even survived that time. The darkness that I felt from betrayal in so many ways, on so many levels and by so many people was so great. I did set the boundary that I would not attend that congregation anymore.

I knew that was no longer going to be a safe place for me or my children when they were in my care. That was a tough decision. I did know that my safety was first. My children’s safety was first and my family’s safety was first.

Being Far Away From Family When He Blamed You For Emotional Abuse

Anne: . You’re still in divorce proceedings. How have the divorce proceedings gone?

June: We have been in and out of court for almost two years now. When you’re going through divorce in the courts, you have to deal with things like custody and support and visitation, and you have to decide all of these things. If you cannot decide it together, then you go to court. He has violated the order several times in small ways, small ways that I really have no way to address.

He has sworn at me during exchanges and does things to try and elicit a reaction or a response. I never respond, I never react. I have learned to know what I can control and what I cannot control and let the rest go. Going in and out of court has obviously been very expensive. It’s been very time consuming.

Anne: I want to stress that you are in a part of the country that is completely, totally far away from your family and support system.

June: Not only do I not have family here, but because I stepped away from the church and because I have the experiences with my bishop and my state president that I have had. The congregation alienated and ostracized me. They enabled the wrongs committed right in front of them.

Soldiering On Despite Continuation of Emotional Abuse

Many people knew that my husband was having this affair, and yet everyone chose to ostracize me. I’m not considered a person who has a testimony anymore because if I had a testimony, why wouldn’t I be coming to church and I’m painted as this feminist who has gone crazy.

I have also received some very, very troubling evidence that the bishop is defaming me in the community and that members, individual church members are doing the same thing.

They use the same language, they use the same words, they use the same phrases to describe me. They talk about my divorce and they talk about the state of my mental health, and it’s very damaging. It’s troubling, and there’s no way again that I can really address it.

Yes, I’m going back and forth to court doing the best I can for my children, trying to advocate for my children. All have special needs in some way or another, and trying to co-parent with a person who will not co-parent in return. He will use every situation to abuse or manipulate in some way.

When I Discovered He Blamed Me For The Emotional Abuse

All the while just feeling very alone in what I’m going through.

Anne: Yeah, it stinks. It’s really bad. I was thinking of different things we could put on Facebook and one of ’em was it’s really, really bad. We get it because during this situation, so many people try to tell me or you or other victims, it’ll be okay. It’s not as bad as you think it is. It’s really, really, really bad. You are in a super bad situation.

What helps give you peace when you’re having a really difficult time?

June: It’s interesting. I have cultivated an authenticity in myself that brings me a lot of peace and the relationships that I have now. Although they may be few, they’re meaningful to me because there are people that I do feel very safe with. There are people that have seen the other side of life and how awful and ugly it can be. They still love me and we understand each other.

There’s a sense of empathy that comes with going through trials like this that many people, I think never really get the chance to cultivate within themselves. Standing in my truth and knowing that I have survived. I have survived some of the worst situations that I had ever imagined I’d ever be in.

I will continue to survive, I’ll continue to build resilience and I’ll continue to reach out to others. To gain community and connection with those who have also survived horrific, horrible and unbelievable trials in their lives. That gives me a lot of peace, that sense of community with others who know.

Advice For Other Women Experiencing Emotional Abuse

Anne: Yeah, because you’re still in the thick of things with nothing being final. He’s still doing all these things that are just not right. I hope that you do have a little glimmer of hope that things will get better eventually.

What advice would you have for other women who are in a situation that is really difficult like yours?

June: Learning about boundaries is crucial. You have got to learn about boundaries and how to set them appropriately. If someone is saying inappropriate things to you. Or if someone is not offering you wise or sound or righteous counsel. You need to be able to recognize that and empower yourself to leave that situation immediately.

You don’t even have to explain. Cultivating your own worth within yourself. Knowing that you are a worthwhile and wonderful and lovable and amazing person as you are. In these situations, our worth seems to suffer. How we feel about ourselves seems to really plummet.

It’s important to be able to hold on to the knowledge and the core belief that you are worth it. That you do not deserve to be abused, lied to, manipulated and cheated on or blamed. That you deserve safety and happiness and security and peace. You deserve peace in your life.

Anne: Yeah. When you started recognizing, okay, I need to start setting boundaries, did you imagine that it would get this bad?

When The Emotional Abuse Escalates

A lot of women don’t realize, okay, I’m making my way to safety. This is cool, but they don’t realize it’s going to get a lot worse. Can you talk about that?

June (01:16:39): It definitely can escalate with an unhealthy person. Boundaries will make them escalate, and they will make them more abusive and behave in more unhealthy ways. With a healthy person, I believe boundaries can be great. They will respond in a healthy and respectful way. That was not the case in my situation. When I set the boundary, it escalated things astronomically.

I could have been more prepared, although I knew that the most dangerous time for a woman in an abusive relationship is when she decides to separate. It’s dangerous when she initiates separation or when she decides to leave that relationship. Really, when a woman would set those boundaries.

Anne: Yeah. I think a lot of women hear about boundaries, and for some women, their spouse is like, oh, this is a boundary, and they realize that they need to change and they change. It’s a miracle and it’s amazing, but a lot of women don’t talk about when you set that boundary, things escalate and that is terrifying to think about.

Women are more prepared for the escalation of the abuse as they start to make their way towards safety and knowing that doesn’t mean you’re doing the wrong thing. You’re going to be blamed and accused of abuse. It is part of the process of getting to safety. I think it would maybe help women be a little bit more prepared for what’s going to happen.

Difficulties Trying To Protect Yourself From His Emotional Abuse

June: Yes. I really wish that local women’s shelters and local resources and organizations that address domestic violence and domestic abuse would be more acknowledging of that fact. I called and said, I was experiencing abuse, I don’t know what to do.

If you need to leave very quickly, have the children’s medication and their birth certificates and important papers, you need to get a little bit of money and have those things ready. Well, that’s not a hard thing to do.

Anne: I was going to say, that’s the easy part.

June: Right? That is very basic. Okay. What they don’t tell you is that if your spouse or your significant other who is abusive, reacts in an unhealthy way to these boundaries. Years of legal abuse, years of being blamed and years of financial abuse. I mean, I can’t even begin to describe how this abuse has affected my credit.

We share loans together that he just won’t pay.Those are things that I wish that I would have known. I am fully aware that they want to get women to safety. What is hard is I don’t find a lot of resources that address the long-term subjection to abuse.

Lots of these women do end up suffering when they set the boundary to leave.

Hoping For Safety from Emotional Abuse

Anne: And the abuse doesn’t end. The person continues to lie. They continue to manipulate, if you have children with that person, then it really doesn’t end. We have to learn how to figure out how to be peaceful. How can I find strength through this long-term trial? Because it is a very, very difficult situation for a very long time,

June: And so many states expect you to co-parent, and so you need to know those options legally. You have got to consult an attorney, know the law in your state. Obviously, the best thing for my children is that they have two healthy and stable parents. I would love for that to be the case.

He uses things against me in court, something that I’ll tell him. He’ll bring up and twist it against me. Any way I can be blamed. Learn so you can prepare.

Anne: Which is really, really scary. Oh man, this situation feels impossible. There are options for women. I turn to prayer and pondering to determine the best actions I can take. The answers will come to us, and it might take time and it might take effort, but we will find a way to create safety for us and our children.

June: Exactly. I fully agree. There’s always a solution. I look at things that way sometimes through this journey.

Anne: Thank you so much for sharing your story.

June: Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity.

Have you wondered how abusers manipulate their victims? Chandra shares how her first husband manipulated her to keep her in the dark. Chandra, a Shero and member of the BTR.ORG community, shares the first part of her incredible story of surviving abuse despite her first husband’s many attempts to control the narrative.

If you’re in this situation and need support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.

This episode follows Chandra’s Story:
This Is How Abusers Manipulate Their Victims – Chandra’s First Marriage (THIS EPISODE)
When My New Husband Is Abusive Too – Chandra’s Second Marriage

Abusers Control The Narrative By Talking First

It’s strategic – the way they control the story. This is how abusers manipulate their victims. And the first step they take is telling the story first. The first to talk is generally the one that people believe, unfortunately. So if the abuser seeks religious counseling, back-up from law enforcement, or “emotional support” from family and friends before the victim. They are more likely to be believed and discredit the victim.

Furthermore, abusers manipulate their victims by spinning the narrative to make themselves look like the victim. They often do this by admitting to a degree of abuse, but giving an excuse that draws pity or praise:

• “Yes, I did cheat, but I’m working a therapist on overcoming my childhood trauma, and I’m hoping she’ll forgive me for my attachment issues that led to me betraying her…”
• “If it wasn’t a sexless marriage, I wouldn’t have to do the things I do…”
• “My family was abusive, and I’m working so hard to be a better man. I just wish she’d stop ignoring my texts so I could tell her how hard I’m working. Can you ask her to talk to me?”

To discover if your husband is emotionally abusive, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

Abusers Spin The Story: “I’m The Actual Victim Here”

Whether they blame the affair partner, like Chandra’s ex-husband did, or blame the abusive family they grew up in:

“I was raised to _____” (objectify women, use exploitative material, hit, sexually abuse women, etc)

Blame society:

“I’m a man! What do you expect?”

Or blame a host of other situations or people, including their hormones, friends, alcohol, drugs, or stress. Abusers who manipulate their victims and are adept at shifting blame from taking accountability for their own choices. To make it appear they were the victim of just about anyone and anything else.

The message is loud and clear: “I’m the victim! So feel sorry for me! Stay distracted from trying to ask me to stop hurting you, and don’t even think about asking me to be accountable. I want to be catered to. And given all the so-called privileges that I perceive victims receive!”

Abusers Control The Narrative Early & Often

Healthy people are generally compassionate, and abusers manipulate their victims by using this. It’s common for abusers to disclose childhood abuse and other traumas early in the relationship. To elicit a blanket of pity that allows them to behave as they want, without consequences. This way, they can be as awful as they want, and can never be held accountable because of the pain from their childhood trauma. But here’s the thing:

Many, many adults have severe childhood trauma, but they don’t choose to abuse others.

This is how abusers manipulate their victims: When abusers control the narrative, it’s terrifying. Sometimes we don’t even believe ourselves.

But at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we believe YOU. You aren’t alone, and we know you are not crazy.

You’re safe here. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.

Transcript: This Is How Abusers Manipulate Their Victims

Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. I’m going to call her Chandra. She’s a mother of four children. She’s a professional mechanical engineer, and a running enthusiast. She happens to be a Boston marathon finisher. So yay, good job there! She loves yoga and happily married for three years to a healthy, kind, humble man. Chandra married two separate abusers.

So part one will be about her first marriage, and then part two next week will be about her second marriage. This episode will focus on how abusers manipulate their victims by controlling the narrative. And then of course stay tuned for next week about her second marriage. Because so many women have gone through that. Where they get out of one abusive marriage, and then through no fault of their own, find themselves in a second one.

Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, Chandra.

Chandra: Thank you, Anne.

Anne: Our stories, Chandra. That’s where do we even start, right?

Chandra: Yeah.

Anne: Yeah, so because you have, I would say, your own story, which is one complete story of your experience, but your story includes two marriages. Let’s start with the first marriage. How old were you when you met him?

And did you recognize that you were experiencing abuse at first?

Chandra’s First Marriage: The Beginning

Chandra: I met my first husband when I was about 17, and we started dating then. He was known for having a girl in every city. When he “chose me,” I felt like I had won the lottery. He was a charismatic, outgoing person, and I wasn’t so much. What I didn’t recognize in these early stages was that he was a bit of a womanizer. And loved that attention from other women. And he loved bombed me a lot at first. I didn’t recognize that’s what that was.

I felt like I enjoyed the attention I got from him and his prolific love letters and professions of love. It’s intoxicating, right? So that’s how things started, and I didn’t see any red flags early on. Right before we married, he actually served a mission trip, a two year mission trip for our church. Right before he left, he gave me a little promise ring. And said, “When I come back, we will marry.”

We’d been dating for about six months when he left, and I was excited about that. I thought, that’s going to be awesome. And I think I’d like to wait for this person, because I was in love with him. And while he was away for those two years, he wrote me a lot of love letters. I thought, this guy isn’t working on his mission. He just writes me letters, and they’re full of all these professions of love.

Early Red Flags & Realizations

Chandra: When he returned, we basically marry within less than a year. We were both 21 at the time. So I was a little young and still in university. A couple of days before we married, he told me something he had just realized. He told me he remembered when he was five, a foster child living in his family home sexually abused him. And I remember at the time thinking to myself, oh boy, what kind of can of worms is this going to be?

And if he’s just realizing this, you know, it sounds like something we’ll have to deal with during the marriage. Because he hasn’t obviously dealt with it up to this point. So I expected some issues. And I knew, because he confessed to me, that during his teenage years, he had made some “mistakes.” And I didn’t know that he was manipulating me.

If you’re thinking about the standards of our church. He’d had some indiscretions and had sorted all that out. He never wanted to get into any details with me. About what that involved. So, I saved myself for marriage, and as far as I knew, he had as well. Our parents raised us that way.

https://youtu.be/TCFNQiZpDsg

He checked all the boxes. He had all the right things when it came to a marriage partner. Even though we were young, I didn’t expect to run into any problems. And I know that everybody liked him in my family, and everyone was excited about our marriage. So we married. The first time I became aware I could have a problem in my marriage was when my oldest daughter was 18 months old.

Thinking I Was Not Good Enough

Chandra: My younger sister had actually just passed away. He decided that was a good time to tell me that he was actually developing a relationship with someone else at work. I remember reflecting later on this. Why did I responded this way? But I immediately thought it was something to do with me. That I was not good enough, he manipulated me to make me think it was my fault.

I was in school, we had a baby and it was a rough time. We were tired and didn’t have a lot of money. And I thought, oh, all the pressures of getting our lives off the ground, it’s been too much for him. So I thought, oh, I’ve got to make life better for him, and I’ve got to fix this, and maybe I’m not good enough. I basically spent the rest of the marriage trying to be the perfect wife, this was the result of staying married after infidelity. And just getting angrier and angrier as I noticed red flags popping up.

I noticed he would lie to me about small things, about money. I could see him flirting with other women. And he became more and more deceptive and withdrawn. He never emotionally connected with me or opened up to me. I think that’s all part of their desire to control the narrative.

As I get into my story more, I definitely have some examples of how he did that kind of thing. Making it about him, and telling me things that were not true, to control the narrative and what I was experiencing. It’s very confusing to be around someone doing that. The first time I had any inkling that I was in something that might be abusive in terms of a relationship and that lying is emotionally abusive.

The Inappropriate Neighbor Incident

Chandra: We lived in this neighborhood. I had three children at the time. I think I was pregnant with my fourth and last child. There was a lady who moved into the neighborhood. She was a single mom, separated from her husband. She had three children, and needed a lot of help. I remember befriending her and having her over with her kids, talking to her and doing things for her. I would watch her kids sometimes.

At Christmas time, she didn’t have a lot of money, and we were doing reasonably well. So I bought some gifts for her kids, took them over to them, and invited them for Christmas dinner. She was in my life, and I think we actually invited her to church with us. She was sitting behind us in the pew with her kids.

The bishop in our congregation at the time actually came to my ex-husband after the meeting and warned him. He said to him, “I think you need to be careful of the woman you brought to church.” And I didn’t know at the time, he was fooling around with her. I didn’t know the extent of what was happening. But I was starting to feel strange about the situation, and I visited a friend of mine.

She, my closest friend at the time, actually married his best friend. And I was talking to them and mentioned the situation. And her husband, my friend’s husband, his best friend, said to me, “You don’t know everything about him, you know.” And I thought, What? What does he mean by that? And I went home, and that was the first thing I asked him. What’s going on with this neighbor?

He Admits To An Affair

Chandra: And I think at the time she’d actually moved out of the neighborhood. He told me he was friends with her and they were working on a business together. And she had this great business idea, and he had this pattern of always starting businesses. I don’t know why, but he loved to start businesses. He made a bunch of money, and then he spent it all or lost it all. It was kind of the cyclical behavior that he had.

So he started a business with her. He told me that she had basically attacked him. He was the one who had taken the high road. And said, “There’s all these people we need to think about. We can’t have this happen, there’s all these children, and my wife.” He was trying to make himself look like he was the good guy, and that he stopped it.

Anne: And at the same time, he’s not cutting off contact with her, he was maniplulating you and her.

Chandra: No, no, and I still don’t know if he completely cut it off. She wasn’t living in the neighborhood anymore, and I honestly don’t know what happened after that. But when my friend’s husband told me I didn’t know everything about him, he actually wasn’t talking about this woman. He was talking about something else that I knew nothing about.

Anne: Wow.

Chandra: He talked about how my ex-husband went to strip clubs. He knew my husband would go to strip clubs. I knew nothing about that until many years later, when my husband did a big disclosure dump on me right before he left.

His Best Friend Knew, But Didn’t Tell Me

Chandra: What bugs me about my friend’s husband knowing that and not sharing that with me. Is feeling like there was someone else who knew about his destructive behaviors and was complicit in his abuse of me. I was so upset later on just knowing that.

Anne: Why didn’t he just flat out tell you?

Chandra: Yeah, he was like, oh, well this is between you two, and I’m going to let you go home and talk to him about this. And ask him.

Anne: Yeah, but he’s already been lying to you the whole time, right? This is how these men manipulate their wives.

Chandra: Exactly.

Anne: So, why wouldn’t he lie to you again? The other question I have is, did you say it was the bishop that came over that day and said, I’d watch out for her?

Chandra: Yep.

Anne: Okay, I don’t know if he knew what was going on or not, but why didn’t he say watch out for your own husband?

Chandra: Well, he didn’t talk to me. He talked to my husband. And said he thought this woman looked like she was. He just had a funny feeling about the situation, and he said that to my husband.

Anne: And he assumed it was her, rather than him.

Chandra: He assumed it was her, not him. He assumed my husband was innocent in the whole thing. I know, scary, huh? That is super scary. Nobody said anything to me either, so I had no idea.

My Sister-In-Law’s Reaction Shook Me Up

Chandra: This is what happened. I had a sister-in-law living in the same city as me at the same time. And we were close. I was just talking to her one day. And I told her about all this, and I said, oh, this stuff happened. I was just kind of telling her and her reaction. She was so indignant and so upset. About the whole thing, and her reaction actually shook me loose. Because I was going along like, yeah, this happened.

And it’s not great. And I don’t know what to do about it. But she was upset about it. I actually had a fight with him, I think that night or like later that week. And I brought it up again. I felt like he was like telling me all these lies to cover up what was going on, and to manipulate me into not finding out the truth. But I had no proof that anything he was saying to me was true or not. So I could feel there was something wrong, but I had no proof. And I was upset. I went for a walk.

I was like five months, six months pregnant. It’s the middle of winter. I’m out walking for about an hour, and just the sum total of all the small lies. And seeing him flirt with other women, and all the bending over backwards, I’d done. To be the perfect wife, so that he would be happy.

I just thought, I need to get out of this relationship. So I remember thinking that and just thinking, I don’t want to be here anymore. I don’t want to do this anymore. But I was pregnant. I had been out of school for six or seven years. I had no work experience. And I was scared.

Abusers Manipulate With Charisma

Chandra: I was also afraid of how I would be treated by all the people who pressured us to succeed in our marriage. You know, the faith community, the families. I knew nobody would believe me. Because he was Mr. Charisma, and everybody thought he worshiped the ground I walked on. He manipulated everyone and he behaved outwardly made it look like that. So I didn’t think I could do anything at the time. And so I didn’t, I didn’t leave.

I wish I had, because being abandoned is a lot worse than getting the courage up to leave yourself.

Anne: Do you feel like now that was God telling you to leave? I mean, you kind of mentioned that, but do you feel now that that’s really what that was?

Chandra: Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, I believe in God, and I’m a praying woman. And I can definitely see when I look back, many, many situations where God was trying to help me move forward. And get away from dangerous situations to protect me and help me. You know, I do see that.

Anne: God’s telling us something, we can feel that, and yet religious scripting. Or maybe even our religious leaders are telling us to go against the revelation God is giving us. Like we’re thinking, no, we can’t break our vows or covenants. Or we can’t “break up our family.” When God directly tells us, you are not safe. You need to get to safety. And we don’t have the words, the understanding, or the knowledge to interpret it that way at the time.

Abusers Manipulate By Clouding The Truth

Anne: So I don’t think it’s our fault, it’s so hard to do what God wants us to do. When the people we feel like, I’m going to say “represent God on the earth.” Our minister, pastor or bishop, tells us to do something different. It’s confusing.

Chandra: It’s hard to overcome that. I agree with you, so that happened, that whole situation with that woman. And my sister-in-law’s reaction woke me up. I had my fourth child, and we moved out of the city we lived in at the time. He was laid off. An opportunity to take a job came up for me. My youngest was three years old.

I had planned to get my career off the ground and start working towards becoming a professional engineer. I’ve been to school for that. When my kids were in school, so she, my baby, was almost there. And I thought, okay, I’ll take this job and start working. And so one day, I had borrowed his computer and searched for something. So somehow as I searched, this history came up. It basically said something like naked pictures of someone’s name, and I recognized the name.

It was actually the name of a co-worker of his. I’m so glad it was almost near the end of the day, because I could not even function. Like, I just lost my mind. The stress reaction, fight or flight, my heart started beating, and I was like, oh my gosh. All these years. After I decided to stay in the marriage during my pregnancy with my youngest, I had kept doing what I was doing. I kept playing the part and wearing the mask with him, because I didn’t know what else to do.

Discovering Pornography & Waiting For Him To Step Up

Chandra: I kept trying to be the good wife and do everything. And I realized the gig is up. I knew that I was with someone that was never going to change. I confronted him with it. When he came to pick me up. I have never screamed at someone so loud in my life. It was just all the years and years and years of pent up frustration, fear, anxiety and sadness and just all those feelings of not being good enough. And I just thought, this is ridiculous.

So I discovered the exploitative material and we went to see our clergy. I didn’t find him abusive. He was supportive. And suggested we start getting some counseling. Of course, like most people, they go for couples counseling as if it’s a couple’s problem, which it’s not. I understand that now, but at the time I didn’t know better. We arranged for some counseling.

And somehow when we went to the first session, the person didn’t show up. And I’m not sure what happened with the scheduling. But I remember thinking to myself, okay, this needs to be rescheduled. I thought the only way I’m going to know that my husband cares about this relationship. And actually wants to do something about this, is if he makes the appointment. So I stepped back, but nothing ever happened.

He didn’t set up an appointment. He did nothing. And so we continued for another year. A year later, I don’t even know why, suddenly he decided we should buy a new house. And the house we were living in had two separate units. I mean, we lived in the house as if it was one house, but there was a back area that you could rent.

I Ask If Something Is Wrong & He Says He’s Thinking Of Leaving

Chandra: And we decided to hang on to the house and rent it out. And so we bought this new house. This was in June of 2007. After the sale, we were going to be moving in a couple of months. He was working on getting tenants for the house we were living in at the time. He got a tenant for the one main part of the house, but he hadn’t gotten anybody for the back of the house. And he was acting really, really strangely. And this was in July and there was something really wrong with him.

I didn’t know what it was. I read a book called Fierce Conversations, and I thought I would put into practice something I’d learned in the book. And I asked him one night, I’m like, I’ve noticed you’re not yourself. Are you okay? Is anything wrong?

And he’s like, well, nothing is wrong. And I said, well, what would be wrong if there was something wrong? Thinking I’m using my fantastic conversation skills. And he said, oh, well, I’m thinking of leaving. And I was like.

Anne: Nothing’s wrong, but I, I hate you and our marriage is gonna end.

Chandra: Yeah, he said nothing’s wrong. And I’m like, well, what would it be if there was something wrong? And he goes, well, I’m thinking of leaving. I was like, what? This is like right before bed, and of course he goes to bed and has a nice night’s sleep. I was up all night, and I actually called his mother, and I said, “Your son just told me he wants to leave, and I have no idea why.”

Confessing The Affair Can be a tactic of Manipulation

Chandra: I asked him. I said, “Why do you want to leave? Why?” He wouldn’t tell me, didn’t even have an answer. And I just thought, well, it’s related to the exploitative material somehow. I don’t know how, but something’s not right here. And I immediately became like this anxious mess. You know, I felt like I had to get up to speak all the time. My stomach was in knots. It was exhausting.

And it went on for about two months until he finally left. But during those two months, we moved into the house. The back part of the other house is still vacant. I started to clue in that when he left, he was planning to move into the back of that house. He’d been planning this for a while, like since at least May or June.

So we moved in this brand new house. It’s beautiful. It’s everything I could ever want. But I’m sitting there going, do you actually think I’m going to pay for this myself? Because I knew I couldn’t. My job wasn’t full-time hours, and I knew I couldn’t afford the house on my own, and I thought what is he doing? And we went out and bought new furniture. He was doing all these things to set up this life.

This was supposed to be the last house. But then, he’s talking about leaving, and it just made no sense at all. And finally, he wrote a letter, and said he felt terrible. I did not deserve the way he treated me throughout the marriage. He admitted he had many problems and made a mistake when he went on a business trip to Chicago. He had slept with another woman, “made a mistake.”

The Aftermath Of The Affair, He Made A Mockery Of Our Marriage

Anne: “Made a mistake.” Just another way these abusers manipulate thier wives.

Chandra: Right, like I just, I slipped and fell into bed with her, and she landed on top of me. I mean, I don’t know, whatever. Right, he said he realized he’d made a mockery of our marriage. And that, that I didn’t deserve how he behaved. I feel silly about this now, but I remember thinking, oh good, finally. All the discussions we’ve had where I’ve tried to get him to open up. And connect with me and tell me what’s really going on with him.

He finally disclosed the truth. And now we can start working on this, fixing it, and making it right. Solve the problems. You know, I’m an engineer, I want to solve the problems, right? So, he was basically trying to get me to kick him out. And he thought if he admitted to that, I would do that.

Anne: Your story is sounding very similar to mine.

Chandra: Is it?

Anne: Yeah, because at the end, he wanted me to kick him out. I didn’t see it at the time, but looking back, it was painfully obvious. And then he could blame me for it. So he wanted to leave, but he wanted to blame me. Yeah, it’s weird. And they start acting crazy.

Chandra: Yes, yes, oh my gosh.

Anne: And then my bishop and everyone was like, Oh, you kicked him out, you did this to him, and it worked. It just went sideways with me. I don’t know how it went with you, but yeah. It’s interesting.

Chandra: Isn’t that interesting? I mean, I didn’t see it till later either, but I realize now, yeah, he didn’t want to look like the guy that left his wife and kids.

He Didn’t Want To Look Like The Bad Guy Abandoning The Family: So he manipulated the situation

Chandra: He didn’t want to be the man who abandons his family to be with an affair partner, right? He realized the letter didn’t work. Because I was still there, and I didn’t say I wanted him to leave. He wanted to manipulate me so I looked like the one who ended the marriage. And so the next thing he does is he decided to disclose everything he had done, the entire marriage to me.

One night he sits me down and says, actually, that letter I wrote you, it’s not true. And that didn’t actually happen. And by the way, I went to massage parlors and strip clubs, I was with this woman. I did that. There was this big list of things he’d done throughout the marriage. I asked him some questions and tried to get the whole story. But of course, looking back, I think how much of that was actually true?

I don’t even know, because the whole purpose was to tell me enough to kick him out. Without telling me too much, so that he wouldn’t look like the bad guy. Because one important thing he left out was the affair he was having, which no one knew about at the time. So basically, the same thing happened. I thought, oh, now I’ve got the truth. Now I know everything. Now we can start working on it. But a few days later, I realized actually nothing’s changed.

He hasn’t said we’re going to counseling now, or I’m gonna do this to fix it or that to fix it. I realized I was being fooled again, and the tension in the house was palpable, like it was so awful. And I was losing my mind. It was a terrible situation. I realized the kids probably felt it. Like, it was really, really stressful.

Asking Him To Leave & Finding Out About An Affair

Chandra: And I finally said, you’re putting us through hell. I think you should just leave. I can’t take it anymore. Like, I can’t tolerate this. And so, he practically kicked up his heels, packed a bag, and left with this big smile on his face. And I, I still didn’t know what to do. But I suspected there was another woman. I just didn’t know. I had no way to prove it. This is how abusers manipulate their victims.

So, because I wasn’t aware of anything happening at the time, I allowed him to return to the house and babysit the kids when I was at work. Okay? So, he was in the house one day, and I came home from work, and he left. And I went down to our basement where the computer was, and checked my emails, and lo and behold, he had left his emails wide open. I came across the affair had been going on for four months.

And it was the worst thing I’ve ever experienced, reading through the emails between him and her, because they totally demonized me. They criticized me and made fun of me in these emails. And, you know, I realize now it was all to justify himself. He had to feel like I was this awful person to sell it to her. And she knew he was married, and she was married too. They both left their spouses for each other.

But basically, I sent all the emails to myself, and then I sent them to him. And he thought I was gonna try to expose him. And she came from a prominent family in the community. She thought I would send it to the media. Which was funny, because I thought I would never do that.

Abusers Manipulate with Accusations & Lies

Chandra: But he accused me of hacking into his account, and she was terrified of what was going to happen.

Anne: Part of me actually does wonder if he left it open on purpose so he could accuse you of hacking into his account.

Chandra: I guess that’s possible, I know.

Anne: And also thinking it would hurt you if you found it.

Chandra: Maybe.

Anne: They enjoy that. You know? They do things that you think seem strange, but sometimes they have their own sick purposes for it. And the reason I say that, again, not knowing, right? If you feel like he didn’t do it on purpose, that’s likely at the same time. Yeah, they manipulate us on purpose to distress us.

And also to make you look crazy and to be able to accuse you of things. That does happen to other women, even if it wasn’t the case in this specific instance.

Chandra: I mean, it’s possible, but I didn’t get that sense. Like he was upset and said I’d hacked his account. And. I was like, I don’t even know how to do that, so I don’t think so, right? So, yeah, and actually, I did something. Maybe this was wrong, but I sent those emails to his parents too. To say, look, this is what happened.

Anne: I don’t think that’s ever wrong. People say it’s wrong because they don’t want to get caught.

Chandra: I wanted them to know what was happening. I didn’t want them coming back on me and accusing me of being the reason the marriage failed.

Legal Manipulation & Escalation

Chandra: A year later, when we were in court, they did that anyway. It was hard, they were so loving and good people. Also part of our faith community. It was really difficult to be treated like I was the bad guy, it didn’t happen at first. It took about a year for that to happen. Eventually, he managed manipulate them I was the reason why the marriage failed. It was really hard.

I found out about the affair. Once that came out, he became really abusive overnight. The abuse I experienced in the marriage was more lying, manipulation, and gaslighting. It would be emotional, psychological, and he was neglectful. He wouldn’t let me in beyond his thick stone walls around himself. It was more of a neglect than anything, but suddenly he became extremely, extremely verbally abusive.

To the point where I had to start getting other people to communicate with him for me. It took me a long time to wrap my head around the fact that he was not my loving husband anymore. And I would sit there and read things he sent me, or he would yell at me on the phone. And I would sit there and listen and be like, oh, you know, maybe what he’s saying is true, and etc. He was still manipulating me at this point. What happened was actually so many crazy things right after he left.

I actually lost my job because I was working on a project, a production project, that got moved to Mexico. But because I was involved in developing all the documentation for the process and the quality checks, they asked me to work in Mexico for a short period. So I negotiated a contract.

Facing Up To Supporting My Children With Job Changes

Chandra: And went down and worked in Mexico for several weeks on and off. And I had family members and members of the faith community helping me with my children. While I went down, and made enough money to keep us afloat. And in the meantime, I found a job. Unfortunately, at the time, I had so little experience. We lived in the greater Toronto area where there’s lots of work. But mostly for people who have over five years of experience as an engineer, which I didn’t have.

So his parents, who lived more than four hours north of Toronto, helped me find a job. It was in a community four hours north of Toronto. The name of the city is North Bay, and I interviewed for a design engineering role up there. They offered me the job. So I could start out and get my career launched. Because I knew from my experience in the marriage with him that he was not going to be consistent with money.

Almost immediately, he started cutting back on what he was providing. I was just hanging on to that house to keep a roof roof over me and my kids’ heads. While I waited for the school year to end and my contract in Mexico. And then to start this job north of Toronto. in a remote location, far away from all my family and friends.

I didn’t know anybody up there, but I knew I had to go take this job so that I could support my kids. Because I knew it would be a battle to get him to provide anything.

The Role Of Faith & Community

Chandra: So unfortunately, the child support has been sporadic almost the entire time we’ve been apart. And I know you call that financial abuse, and I’m actually in a court case with him right now to make another change, because my youngest turned 18.

He’s $75, 000 in arrears, and he wants to get it reduced by $50, 000. And his motion to the court is full of lies. And it’s so triggering, still 15 years later, to read the things he writes and think, this guy is lying. There was a lot of abuse. When I started cutting off communication with him, he started taking it out on the kids instead of me. Which was really difficult to watch them go through that.

Anne: Let’s pause quickly to talk about how divorce is not the solution to abuse. I am not saying don’t divorce. So please don’t get that impression listeners. Be like, Anne said, divorce is not the solution to abuse. And so ergo, I’m not going to get divorced, if you feel like you need to get divorced. I am saying when you’re married to an abuser, they have some reason to not be full on abusive. Because they don’t want you to kick them out.

Or because they want to maintain some kind of power or control. Once they realize there’s nothing they can do to groom you anymore, it’s full on abuse. And that is usually after the divorce. Or during the divorce proceedings. Now, I think that is a phase of deliverance. So as we pray for deliverance, I like to think about the story of Moses and the Hebrews escaping from Egypt.

Divorce Is Not The End Of Abuse

Anne: If you’re not religious, go with me for a minute. The first stage is Moses bringing them out of Egypt, and they’re backed up against the Red Sea. Then it’s like, Oh, what do we do? That’s the first stage, then the second stage is learning how to protect yourself from abuse. Going through the Red Sea, perhaps on dry ground. There are stages of deliverance in this.

I think that’s what the courts don’t understand. I think that’s what many people don’t understand. They think, oh, we’ll just get divorced and your abuse problems will be solved. We’re thinking, it’s not solving anything. We are still getting severely abused and manipulated after our divorces.

I don’t know if you will disagree or agree that it is exponentially better to not live with them. And to have the court have some type of protection in terms of assets and financial stuff. Even if they don’t obey it, it’s better than having them live in your house. What are your thoughts about that?

Chandra: Yeah, I would agree. Certainly, the abuse became apparent and much, much worse after he left and the affair was exposed. And I definitely noticed that he became extremely abusive. I remember thinking to myself, oh! These were all things he thought before, but never said to me, right?

And he was always building a case and blaming me, because everything was my fault, everything. He blamed everything on me. At one point, he said to me, “Oh, I’ve got 10 people who believe my side of the story.” And I’m like, there’s sides to this? I’m like, okay.

Anne: There’s one truth, buddy, but also, what, you’re like out canvassing for votes or something?

Chandra: That’s what it sounded like.

Abusers Manipulate with Continual Smear Campaign

Anne: What are you talking about?

Chandra: It sounded like he was out, you know, doing his smear campaign and building a little army of his own against me. And I thought, this is insane.

Anne: And also like tallying up the people he’s manipulated.

Chandra: And 10 people said I’m like, okay.

Anne: Crazy talk.

Chandra: I didn’t know, we were building an army like that. I will tell you, I was terrified to go to court with him. And one of the abusive things he had said to me right before I went to court was, “I will never let you divorce me. I know you want to live a celibate life outside of marriage. And so I will never let you divorce me. So you will always have to be alone.” And I was like, what did I do to deserve this, this amount of hatred from you?

Anne: And that’s insane.

Chandra: It’s insane.

Anne: You can’t do that. Like it’s not even believable.

Chandra: That’s what I thought. I thought, oh yeah, watch me, watch me. My clergy at the time was a professor in the university in my town. When I told him that I needed help finding good legal counsel, he referred me to a retired nun. They called her jaws in a dress. She had retired from being a nun.

Court With An Amazing Lawyer Fighting For My Family

Chandra: She’d become a lawyer in the family court system and was there to fight for families like mine. And she was amazing. She died of cancer after my court stuff was done. And she was a blessing, I’ve got to tell you. So she helped me fight. But before I actually started, I remember studying about the battles, and I had always wondered, what is all this stuff in the scriptures for?

And I realized as I read through all of it, oh, this is all about people who went to battle. To fight for their families, for their freedom, and for their rights. I realized I’m not doing something wrong by fighting with him. I’m doing what I need to protect my kids and family.

And I got over the whole fear and the whole like queasy feeling I had about fighting in court with him pretty quickly. Once I’d read that stuff and had that sense again to go ahead and fight. I’ve kicked his butt around the courtroom a few times because I realized I had some advantages over him.

I heard at one point the person with the most paper wins. And so I kept really, really good records, and I always came prepared. He often didn’t even have a lawyer and would try to represent himself. And was disorganized.

Court Is Exhausting, I Knew I Never Wanted Him Back

Chandra: I prevailed in most situations. He was trying to control the situation and control me, I was like, I’m not going to let this happen. I’m will be strong in my career and get to the point where he can’t do anything to control me and my kids.

Anne: It’s amazing what we can do when we believe we can and are willing to work hard. The thing that’s so hard is that we’re so overwhelmed by the abuse, and that is the point. They want to overwhelm us to win, and they want us exhausted. So that’s the part that’s so hard. It is a war.

Chandra: It’s really grueling. This is one tactic to manipulate their victims, exhaustion. I remember being so bone tired. Worse sometimes than how hard it is after you have a baby. And they’re not sleeping, and you’re not sleeping for days. But just the emotional stress you’re going through. You’ve got a broken heart, and like I just want to say, he abandoned me. That was really hard on me emotionally. Once I knew about the affair, there wasn’t a second that I thought I ever wanted him back.

After everything that had gone on, it was five years before he left me that I thought about leaving him. And just felt like I couldn’t do it at the time. I mean, looking back, I wish I had. I wish it had been me that left him, because I would have been in better shape emotionally. But, once he left, and I knew why, there wasn’t a second that I thought I wanted him back. I remember feeling, my life is a nightmare. I remember feeling like that a lot. But I didn’t actually want him back, never.

Abusers Manipulate By Hiding Who they Really ARe

Anne: Yeah, I felt the same way. And tell me if you feel this shock. At who he really is, and that I didn’t realize the extent of the evil and manipulation. I knew something was wrong the whole time. Things were crazy. . But now that I’ve been out of it, looking back and even looking now at what he’s doing now. The shock is like whoa, it’s so bad. Like it’s way worse than I ever could have imagined.

Chandra: Yeah, I remember feeling like the backdrop of my life was pulled out from under me. I felt like I had no bearings, just my sense of reality was destroyed. I remember looking back at pictures and thinking, what was going on when this was all happening?

And I was in this happy little world, in my little dream world with my kids. Thinking I had this great husband, even though I sensed there was a problem too. I didn’t realize the extent of it, like you said. And had no idea how bad it was going to get. It was scary.

Anne: Would you say on the whole in your first marriage that clergy was helpful?

Chandra: I would say yes, the bishop we had when I discovered the exploitative material was supportive of me. He was actually a mental health professional in our local hospital. We thought he might have bipolar disorder. I’m not sure. When he left, he was on medication for psychosis, bipolar disorder and depression. And I believe he had gotten all those prescriptions from our bishop. So, I found him supportive.

Church Leader’s Ridiculous Judgement

Chandra: And actually, when my first husband left, I was in the process of renewing my recommend to attend our temple. And I had completed the part with the leader of our congregation. And was ready to go into the second interview at the stake level. The person who interviewed me asked me how things were going in the family. And I said, oh, actually my husband just left our family. He stopped the interview, and said, “Oh, I can’t give you this recommend.”

And I was like, what, why not? I haven’t done anything wrong. And he said, well, we need to wait and see. I think this man was actually a divorce lawyer, and I just felt icky about that. I found out about a week later, I guess my bishop caught wind of what happened. He called that guy and said, “You need to give her her recommend. She has not done anything wrong here.” And so, they took care of it.

Anne: How creepy!

Chandra: I know. I wasn’t expecting that. It was very strange. As if somehow the whole thing was my fault. And I was crushed and destroyed. Like, in the middle of the trauma. And this guy tells me I can’t go to my place of peace. And I had done nothing wrong. I’m like, this is ridiculous.

Anne: That is absolutely ridiculous. I’m so sorry. Chandra and I had to actually pause the conversation, because I needed to help my kids. So next week, she’s going to talk about how this transitions into her second marriage with an abuser, and what happened there. So stay tuned.

Are you wondering if there’s something wrong with your husband or boyfriend? Here are 5 silent red flags in a relationship that you need to know. If you relate to this episode, did you know that there are 19 types of emotional abuse? Take our free emotional abuse test to see if you’re experiencing this.

1. Coming On Strong Early On

Like most red flags, abusers will often come on very strong early on. In Ayla’s case, her abuser immediately began to love-bomb her with attention, a job offer, flattery, and affection.

Abusers may:

• Tell you they love you
• Ask you to be in a committed relationship
• Initiate sex
• Propose
• Ask you to meet their family
• Give you money or ask you for money
• Divulge “secrets” early on in order to “bond” with you – but later you may find out these were lies

2. Isolating You (It’ll Seem Romantic At First)

The second red flag in a relationship is isolation. It may be hard to spot, because it can be camouflaged romantically. Abusers isolate victims by usurping their time. They spend every waking moment with the victim, which can feel romantic. They may condition the victim to feel dependent on them OR tell the victim that they (the abuser) are emotionally dependent on the victim.

Abusers often take up so much emotional and physical space. Isolation can extend to a physical move to where the victim doesn’t have any friends or family.

3. Pushing You To Have A Child With Them

Interestingly, abusers often request and then push for the victim to bear their child. This is a of the silent red flags in a relationship. Many abusers want their victims to get pregnant, because it’s a way for him to basically control you the rest of your life.

If he is talking about having a child with you early on, or after you have expressed hesitation, consider this a red flag. Having a child with someone legally ties you to them until the child is eighteen. This is a sure-fire way for the abuser to have contact with you and a degree of control in your life and the child’s life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvxpK9yloco 4. “You’re Saving Me” (Also Romantic At First)

Another silent red flags in a relationship is that the abuser may use phrases like:

• I didn’t know what I needed until you came along.
• I felt this void until you were here, now I feel whole.
• When I’m not with you I feel empty.
• I didn’t know what I wanted to do with my life until I met you.
• I need you. I’m not okay without you.
• Now that I have you, I’ll be able to be a better man.

Ayla’s abuser coupled this “You are my savior” red flag with isolation when he moved their small family to the mountains.

5. Spending Time Studying Resources About How To Abuse Women (Calling You Out, Robert Greene)

One scary red flags in a relationship rarely discussed is the insidious and calculated effort that abusers take to learn how to abuse women. Books like The 48 Laws of Power and The Art of Seduction by the psychopathic author Robert Greene literally teach men how to coerce and abuse women. In Ayla’s situation, her abuser studied these books and used the tactics to brainwash and manipulate her.

If you relate and need support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.

Transcript: 5 Silent Red Flags In A Relationship

Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode, we’re going to call her Ayla. She’s going to be sharing her story. As she shares her story, I’m going to be pointing out 5 silent red flags in a relationship you need to know. Welcome Ayla.

Ayla: Thank you so much. It’s an honor to be here and I look forward to talking with you today and the rest of the community.

Anne: So let’s start with your story. Did you recognize his abusive behaviors at first?

Ayla: At first, no. It was definitely one of those what seemed like a destined type of meeting. It was definitely more like a fairy tale at first. I was working at a ski resort. And he was a tourist with his extravagantly rich friend, who had talked me into joining in a supposed “business opportunity” with a non-profit. They totally stole my heart with that to convince me to quit my job there in the ski resort and then start this non profit.

Which after a month or two I realized was a complete scam and setup. Everything was hyperspeed, and that was another thing, now in retrospect, that was a red flag warning that I didn’t understand at the time. Technically, he stalked me. I didn’t put two and two together. I just thought he enjoyed my company. He wanted to help me get into a better financial opportunity with this non-profit that they were promising me.

The First Red Flag: Grooming

Anne: So that’s the first one of the silent red flags in a relationship, is coming on strong, early on, otherwise known as grooming. Where things happen very, very quickly. Then you leave your job and end up moving in together and having a child. Because you don’t recognize this as grooming.

The Second Silent Red Flag In A Relationship: Isolation

Anne: The second silent red flag in a relationship is isolating you. They get you to move or quit your job. And that happened to you as well. So now that you’re living together and have a child. That’s the hard part. Women don’t know that the great part was part of the abuse. So many times they’ll say, it was good. And then it went bad. They don’t realize it was bad the whole time.

Struggles In The Relationship

Anne: What types of things did you try to improve the relationship?

Ayla: Communication, however, he was so good with word manipulation and gaslighting. It always kept ending up that it was my fault for anything and everything that happened. He bashed my head into a door, I had a severe concussion. And he kept blaming that I wasn’t understanding things because of it. He blamed it on the hormones and everything when I was pregnant. So it was all my fault all the time.

I think when I continuously caught him in blatant lies with the gas lighting. That’s when I realized he might be mentally ill. I understood that I needed to be more particular and deliberate in how I created my existence alongside him. Especially since we were having a child together. He had a bad addiction to weed. I thought that was the main culprit so I didn’t recognize the silent red flags in my relationship.

I read a book called Tell Your Children the Truth About Marijuana. Which focuses on violence being a huge result of somebody who uses substances such as marijuana often.

Anne: Yeah, that makes sense. You’re thinking the reason why he’s been violent is because of his marijuana use or maybe a mental illness. I’m so sorry. Can you talk more about how he exploited you?

Ayla: I have a big heart. I used to do energy work and counseling. And becoming part of a non-profit was something intriguing to me. I wanted involvement in something amazing to help the community.

Exploitation & Lies

Ayla: So with being lied to from the get go about that. I felt that maybe it was just that one opportunity. Because he always had an excuse for something going on. So when we had left together to go to the mountains and start a new life, he said, oh, it was, it was his friend’s fault. That he was behaving the way he was. He said he needed to get away from the bad influence and that coming to a new life will change him. He’s going to be a changed man.

And that was exactly what he needed. I was exactly what he needed in his life to become a better person. And so, of course, I believed it. But then I kept having to call the police to help me out. Because there were times when he wouldn’t even allow me to close myself off into a bedroom. To prevent him from yelling in my face, shoving me, pushing me, grabbing the baby from my arms, like horrible back and forth fighting. That I just was fighting for my safety to get away.

He wouldn’t even let me leave the house too. And he would take away the car keys. He also didn’t allow me to drive the car at times. He had control over that and didn’t register the other cars. So if I tried to leave, he said he would call the police and report the car stolen, and that I was kidnapping my own child. He put up surveillance cameras, wow big red flag, and he then spliced up video footage of me defending myself. I mean, what do you do if your husband filmed you with a hidden camera.

The Third Silent Red Flag In A Relationship: Pushing For A Child

Ayla: He said I have footage that I can show the police saying you were abusive towards me. I realized he had trapped me. He blackmailed me for about the two last two and a half years of our “relationship,” for everyone to call it that. So there were threats that kept an invisible prison around me in my life. My son was unfortunately the pawn to keep that control over me, because the threats were so real.

Anne: So I want to point out the third silent red flag in a relationship that you mentioned. Number three is pushing you to have a child with them. Because these types of abusers know that once you have a child, their ability to exploit, control and threaten you increases exponentially. So pushing you to have a child with them quickly is number three.

Ayla: I had another friend, in the same exact situation, caught into a relationship. And her abuser used a child to keep her in control. Because all he wanted from her was just a child. Like, my abuser just wanted a child from me.

Anne: Or at least that’s what he said. I mean, he manipulated you to feel like he wanted a child, but he wanted a reason to keep you trapped. So that’s why it’s so difficult. And so hard when you find out that it was manipulation the whole time.

The Fourth Red Flag: Manipulative Dependency

Anne: The fourth silent red flag in a relationship. You mentioned that he manipulated you by saying he needed you, that you were going to save him. that. He couldn’t do this without you. You mentioned this type of manipulation. I mean, you experienced overt, non silent abuse, like yelling. Or keeping you from leaving the house. And then you’re also experiencing this silent abuse.

In fact, this is narcissistic abuse. You discovered that he poisoned you to take pictures of you to use to exploit you online. Can you talk about that?

Ayla: One night he pushed very to get me to drink. That was the thing that we often did, but I knew he was doing the course of control with the surveillance camera called the domestic violence setup. So I knew that he already had that in his back pocket. The one night I kept refusing. I don’t want to drink anything. My intuition just said, no, not tonight. Stay away. So he handed me a drink, even despite me saying, I don’t want to drink. He’s like, just take one sip.

I’m like, all right. So I took one sip and gave it back to him. I said, see, I just don’t want it. I’m not in the mood. Then he dumped that drink out. He loves his alcohol, so I thought that was peculiar. So I asked, why’d you dump it out? Oh, well, I just don’t want to drink either, and he played it off. 20 minutes later, I felt really odd, sick. And I tried taking myself upstairs to the bedroom, and I just had to sit and collapsed on the stairs.

Poisoned & Trapped: Visible Red Flags In A Relationship

Ayla: Now my consciousness was still there. Because when somebody is given the Rufalin date rape drug, if they have enough alcohol in the system, their consciousness is not there. But because I didn’t have alcohol in my system that one night, I was still coherent. And I remember feeling him standing over my body and seeing flashes. He was taking pictures, which was scary. I couldn’t do anything. I couldn’t move. And then he finally picked me up and put me on the bed.

And shut me in there, and he put the baby in bed with me. So I asked him about it the next night. He said, Oh, it was in my imagination. And so I called the domestic violence center to see what they can do to help me. I didn’t know what to do at that point. I was so scared, if he did stuff like that to me.

Anne: Did you find the domestic violence shelter to be helpful in your area?

Ayla: Absolutely not, I was so surprised about how unhelpful they were. It was like chasing a mouse, trying to get them to help me. The woman wouldn’t return my calls in an appropriate time. I tried to get restraining orders, nothing happened. It took a year and a half, he almost killed my son, for them to finally step in.

And say, Oh, okay. Yeah, I guess we’ll help. And even at that they believed my abuser over me and gave up on trying to help me. Because of the camera footage that he introduced in court.

Seeking Help & Facing Challenges

Anne: I’m so sorry. Because he set that up on purpose, right? To splice up the footage to make it seem like you were the abuser, when you were just trying to protect yourself. I’m so sorry. That is awful. Everyone says call the domestic violence hotline, if you’re a victim. It’s going to be easy for you if you just reach out for help. I have found that is not the case.

And they also do not understand the coercion piece of this, the lying, emotional and psychological abuse that you’re under. So they’ll just think, what’s wrong with her? Instead of realizing that you are suffering from severe trauma, gaslighting and you cannot see straight. It’s not your fault, so instead of actually helping you, some blame you. It’s a lot harder than people think.

And I found the same thing. Even though their purpose is to be helpful, that is not exactly what happens in real life. So, this is exactly why I wrote The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Because women need to determine his true character. And then know what’s going to happen next, so that they can anticipate it. These strategies help women determine what the right thing is for them and their particular situation.

The Fifth Red Flag: Studied Manipulation

Anne: To introduce this part of your story. So the fifth silent red flag in a relationship is that they actually study this type of manipulation. There are books about how to be a pickup artist, how to manipulate women, how to control women. I highly recommend that every single woman who listens to this podcast read the book Men Who Hate Women by Lara Bates.

She outlines all the ways in which they learn how to manipulate women, and they do it on purpose. You can find that book on our curated list of betrayal trauma books. Can you talk about that?

Ayla: He moved his stuff around, and had left them out and forgot to put them back when he went to work. I looked and found The 48 Laws of Power, which is a detailed brainwashing manipulation book. And then The Art of Seduction at the time, I overlooked it. I thought it was like a couple’s book. But when I researched it after I left, I realized it was a how-to manual about how to catch, a victim.

Ultimately, give them PTSD to make them controllable, discard them. And get a new victim and do the same thing over and over again. It’s just absolutely atrocious. The book uses the term victim 277 times. It uses the word prey 13 times, but it’s still there. It was so shocking, and it is banned from many prisons, state prisons across the United States. Because they understand how damaging these books are.

Discovering Manipulation Tactics

Ayla: And how bad it would be if these inmates started studying these books. Because that’s all they have is time when they’re sitting there. So studying this material would make them have more of a criminal mindset. When I found these books, especially The 48 Laws of Power, it was like that movie moment where the shift in view of the focused camera just completely zoomed in. And I realized, Oh my gosh, it has been a lie this entire time.

And then a few months after we met, after he put me in the hospital, he was never tried, never went and saw a judge to get a sentence. It was thrown out because his story was different from mine. But he sat in jail for three nights, and created this elaborate plan to get back at me. And to make sure that I suffered financially, emotionally, and that he was going to try to put me in jail. So that way I never knew my son and my son never knew me.

His words, I wish I had recorded it, but it was a bold confession of truth because he thought I was breaking up. I left finally a month later, when I finally mustered up the courage to leave.

Anne: A bold confession of truth and also a threat to keep you in the relationship. I mean, he was threatening you. If you leave, these things will happen to keep you there. So even if it’s true, it’s still a threat with the goal to maintain control.

Court-Ordered Visits & Continued Abuse

Ayla: Absolutely, and then I called the domestic violence hotline again to see about a restraining order. I was trying to do it quietly, and not have to see him one more time. So I called the police, filed a report. I had unplugged the surveillance camera. So he came home as I left with the police. They granted me a four year restraining order, even with very little evidence. I was grateful for that. It was a pure miracle. But that’s how I got out.

And I was legally abused for the past year and a half. I’m homeless, living with family. It’s so hard to It would be so hard to divorce without family support. I’ve lost everything. My car has been taken from me. The courts have forced me to continue to have my son keep a relationship with his father. So I am forced to travel once a month to have my son do two four hour visits in two days. I’ve spent over $9, 000 in the past 10 months.

I haven’t been able to get a job because of these trips, because I have to travel around five days for these trips. The plane tickets are too costly, so I have to drive. It’s a 10 hour drive. So, even after this fact, the courts are allowing the abuse to happen because they’re part of the abuse that is now happening in this aftermath. Finally, this last hearing a couple of days ago, the commissioner finally heard me after I spelled it out.

With the details and facts of I’ve spent over $10, 000. I’ve traveled over 50 days for them to do 60 hours of visitation. Outrageous, putting us in icy driving conditions, desolate unsafe areas.

The Court System’s Failures

Ayla: Staying in hotels where there are drug addicts outside. It’s absolutely appalling how much as a victim I was trying to get help, and my life has been completely ruined, blown to smithereens. I’m doing my best to stay grounded and positive, but I didn’t think it was going to be this way. I was anticipating and hoping my son was happy and healthy. And that I was happy and successful. I’m in a place of life right now, with my own home and a place to share love with my son.

For me personally, the hardest part of all this is the guilt that I wish I had disappeared a long time ago when I was pregnant. And he wouldn’t have found me. But now that I have to hand my innocent child over to our abuser. When the image I don’t think will ever leave my head is him throwing my son on the couch and nearly breaking his neck. The courts will never understand what he’s capable of. They believed it was an accident.

Oh, him bashing my head against the wall was an accident. Him nearly crashing the car, screaming in a rage, was an accident. You know, there were so many accidents that turn into that one fatality, and that’s the hardest part. So yeah, I’ve been following your organization on Facebook, and I always appreciate the work you have done. What you guys put out has been so helpful, because I understand that I’m holding hands with so many other strong people.

That went through similar things. It makes me feel so honored to know that the strength is shared from all of you to us. Who are deep in, in the trenches, helping us identify red flags in our relationships.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery’s Opportunities

Ayla: So you guys, and your strength and opportunities for learning and progress, have been so wonderful and so helpful. I don’t think I would be nearly put together right now if I hadn’t found you and the amazing things you have put out. My domestic violence team, when I brought Robert Greene books to their attention. I’m not even kidding you. They scoffed and they said, Oh yeah, that culture. They were completely aware of it.

There is nothing being done to alleviate the damage Robert Greene’s books are doing. Or just dark psychology. I’ll just say dark psychology books in general. The authors attempt to say that people need to educate themselves on how not to be manipulated. If somebody’s completely unaware that they’re being manipulated, how can they even think they need to prepare for that kind of thing?

The situation and scenario when they’re completely innocent. Dark psychology is an abusive tool that needs to be discussed more, because children suffer. My son was caught in the middle of this. Because my abuser learned how to be an abusive manipulator because of psychology books. That hit home. That really hurt, you know, because my son is the most innocent angel, like all children. And they don’t deserve to be put in that position. It’s the worst when your ex uses the kids to hurt you.

I hope dark psychology becomes more of a talked about topic. I’m having the hardest time wrapping my head around that. My focus is so challenged, because I am still in shock in many ways about how everything transpired. How everything is still transpiring. I’m just blown away. And the fact that the court system is fostering this abuse in such a weird way that I was not expecting.

Gratitude Amidst Struggles With The Silent

Ayla: I want people to understand that the courts and the law are not always on your side. So we have to become more aware of preparing ourselves. And not be reliant or expect that the people who say they are there to help us may not actually be there or on our side. I’m grateful for my son every day. I struggle with the fact that I’m stuck to this abuser forever.

Especially when I’m driving at midnight and I still have five hours to go to try to get to this court ordered visit for my abuser. I’m driving in snow, and I’m like, where are my rights? To say that this is a scary situation that I’m putting myself in, and my child too. Yeah, abuser’s rights are more important than mama’s rights, my rights, my son’s rights. It’s surprising. I’m gonna say, this sounds bizarre, but I am thankful that my situation is not that bad compared to a lot of other women’s stories.

That I’ve heard. My heart just started sobbing with some of these other women that I heard in their children’s situations.

Anne: I’m so sorry to hear about the difficult time you’re going through right now. That is why I started podcasting. That is why I want women to share their stories so that we can all identify the silent red flags that identify abuse. They can be educated about the strategies I teach in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. They can start realizing all the challenges that have nothing to do with them. And have hope. I want everyone to have hope that safety is possible.

Taking One Step At A Time

Anne: And we can take one step at a time. You’re going to get there. You’re going to get there. So hang in there. And thank you so much. for sharing your story with everybody today.

Ayla: Yeah, thank you so much. I appreciate you and all the amazing work you’re doing for all of us.

Is crying yourself to sleep almost every night normal? Is marriage meant to be hard?

We’ll get to the answer. And in the meantime, consider that you may be experiencing emotional abuse. To find out, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

The Myth That Marriage Is Meant To Be Hard Enables Abuse

The old “marriage is hard” trope enables abusers. When clergy, family, therapists, and others advise women struggling in abusive situations, they answer the question, “Is marriage meant to be hard?”” By saying that all marriages are difficult, all men demand sex, and all women are enduring some level of misery. Victims may feel they aren’t justified to seek safety.

The truth? Healthy marriages are a safe space from the pain, fatigue, and trauma of life. Healthy marriages do not cause pain, fatigue, and trauma.

https://youtu.be/_Ct_-FuCnYo So What’s “Normal” Marriage Meant To Be Like?

Many women fear that abuse has altered their perception of “normal” and “healthy.” Answering the question “Is marriage meant to be hard?” with a yes prevents them from recognizing a healthy relationship.

This list may help you if you are having trouble identifying abusive behaviors in your relationships:

• Gaslighting is abuse
• Yelling is abuse
• Punching walls, hitting objects, and slamming doors is abuse
• Hurting or threatening pets is abuse
• Coercing you into sex is abuse
• Having sex with you when you’re sleeping, using painkillers, or feeling sick is abuse
• Giving you an STD is abuse
• Humiliating you is abuse
• Having sex with you without your informed consent (including about his pornography use or other sexual behaviors) is abuse
• Shaming you by using scriptures, talks, or other religious materials is abuse
• Lying to other people about you is abuse

This list is not exhaustive, but may help identify covert abuse in your relationship.

Is Your Marriage Harder Than It Should Be?

At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we know that the first instinct women usually experience is a desire to point it out to the abuser, and try to elicit him to change. We also know that this doesn’t work and puts the victim in more danger – emotionally, sexually, and physically.

We’re here for you. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions are specifically created for women who need a safe space to process trauma, ask questions, and find a community of women in similar situations. You’re not alone.

Transcript: Is Marriage Meant To Be Hard?

Anne: I have a member of our community, Elizabeth, on today’s episode. She’s a wife and mom, and survivor of a 14 year abusive marriage. She’s a writer working in the advertising industry. Outside of her career, Elizabeth works as a grant writer for Human Trafficking Restoration House, and as a leader for her church youth group. She enjoys working out, being outside, and caring for her energetic German shepherd.

Welcome Elizabeth.

Elizabeth: Anne, thank you so much for having me.

Anne: Elizabeth talked about how this is an opportunity to process her experience in story form. Before we started recording. I’m excited to be part of that process with her, and hopefully this will be a good experience as she shares. Is this one of the first times you’ve publicly shared your story, Elizabeth?

Elizabeth: Yes. It’s the first time. There are very few people in my life with whom I’ve shared the full experience.

Anne: Let’s start at the very beginning.

Elizabeth: My parents were part of an arranged marriage through the Unification Church cult. They married in Madison Square Garden with a bunch of other people. They had five kids. I’m the second oldest. I have two brothers and two sisters. Growing up, it was just a lot of chaos. I didn’t know, is marriage meant to be hard? My parents were not in a good space emotionally or mentally. They both had rough upbringings.

Struggles With Mental & Physical Abuse

Elizabeth: My mom was overtly mentally ill and also had a lot of physical problems. Is marriage meant to be hard? Mom’s illness caused many conversations about, “what’s Mom’s mood today?” We always watched what she was feeling, because if things were not going well for her, that meant bad things for us. There was a lot of mental and physical abuse in that situation. Our parents left us alone a lot. We banded together and worked together to survive.

My dad worked on Capitol Hill in the eighties. He would commute into Washington, DC and leave us out in West Virginia in the panhandle country, in the side of a mountain with my mom who was homeschooling us. So we didn’t have much contact with the outside world, other than play groups sometimes. I always had this sense that there were these other families that were normal. I looked at other families. It always seemed like we were so different.

Their mom seemed to care for their kids and would actually do things for their kids, but we were always doing things for ourselves. We would go to a play group, and my older sister and I would pack the lunches, just simple things like that. My job was to serve my mom coffee in bed.

Thankfully, there wasn’t much involvement with the Unification Church. When we lived in West Virginia, we went to an evangelical church, and that was a refuge for me. I remember going to church camp, and I had become a believer at a church event at age seven. I’m Christian and want to follow God.. It always seemed like I was somehow doing something wrong. I felt confused. I could never, ever get my mom’s approval.

Moving To The Midwest & Parental Separation

Elizabeth: There was a lot of pain, chaos, and confusion. Is marriage meant to be hard? Theirs was. My dad is from the Midwest. Around age 10, we moved to the Midwest, his family was still there, and that was the start of things going downhill. Shortly after we moved out there, my parents separated and my dad left. So that meant we had no buffer between ourselves and our mom. My mom would keep my older sister and I up late and accuse us of awful things.

She would make us feel like we were to blame because our dad had left. There was just constant chaos. She would physically abuse us. I remember washing the dishes one day. She came up behind me and smacked me across the head. Because I wasn’t doing it right. That was a big theme. I could never do things exactly the way she wanted them, but she had never taught me how.

There was a lot of shame in that I couldn’t ever figure out what my mom wanted. She cut our hair as a punishment one day. One night when we were staying up late, she was really angry at us. She started sawing at her wrists, and that actually happened twice where she tried to commit suicide in front of us. We attended church and participated with the youth group there.

My youth pastor one day talked to my dad. We still contacted him. But obviously didn’t live with him. The pastor said, you need to get custody of those kids. My older sister basically shared what was going on. My mom had basically torn a nightgown off of her body. So there was evidence of what had happened.

Is Marriage Meant To Be Hard: Custody Battle & Living With Dad

Elizabeth: So my dad got custody of us, and we moved in with him, and I was about 11 or 12. So that was something.

Anne: Did he get custody relatively easily?

Elizabeth: There was a court hearing, and my mom basically was not in a good mental space to fight for us. I don’t remember this well, but my dad says even her attorney said she’d probably go with her dad. I remember my older sister and I were in the judge’s chambers. He told us to go over to the window and wave at our parents.

And I didn’t understand why at the time. But I think he was looking at our body language when we were doing that. So I guess that had something to do with it.

Anne: Custody by waving. Sorry, I’ve never heard of that before.

Elizabeth: I know. Looking back now as an adult, I’m sure there were other things that were going on as far as evidence. But I don’t remember it. My Mom homeschooled us. It wasn’t well done, because there was so much chaos. My mom caused a lot of trauma when she homeschooled us.

I remember trying to learn to read the word turtle, and I could not figure it out. She started physically assaulting me, because I couldn’t read this word. Is marriage meant to be hard? It certainly was with my Mom. Another time, I learned fractions, and filled out a pie chart in crayon, but I was writing on a surface that was kind of bumpy. So the other parts I had written in pencil also looked like they were in crayon, because it was bumpy.

Transition To Public School

Elizabeth: She was mad at me because I had written the whole thing in crayon, so she basically screamed at me and made me go back. So I kind of scratched the crayon off of my pie chart. But when I took it back to her, she said, oh, that was actually okay. I did the rest in crayon. I said, no, it was in pencil, and looks textured or whatever. And she blew it off and didn’t apologize. I felt that I had actually been right all along, but it didn’t matter.

So, I attended middle school the last quarter of seventh grade. I lived with my dad, and always wanted to go to public school. It felt cool. I realize now how traumatic that was. Because I had never been around kids like that. They knew all these funny sayings and words that I didn’t know. They said I was slow, because I just didn’t understand what they were saying. It was like they were speaking a different language.

I remember at that time this growing need for acceptance. But simultaneously, feeling a lot of shame and rejection. I felt different again than everyone else, and everyone else seemed to have their lives together. Meanwhile, I lived with my dad in this very small house, with my four brothers and sisters going through puberty simultaneously, without any support. My dad seemed overwhelmed with his own problems.

High school is a little better. I played soccer and wrote for the newspaper. Looking back, I had friends that were not healthy, they would make fun of me, but I was always trying to win their approval.

Meeting Her Future Husband

Elizabeth: I had this sort of mentality that my childhood wasn’t that bad. Obviously, I was fine. It was a long time ago. I’d moved on and tried to do my best, and obviously was okay. So all through high school, I wanted a boyfriend that seemed like the ultimate symbol of acceptance. And unfortunately, I was awkward and out there, and it didn’t seem like there was a lot of interest from other people in me that way. So I would say I was definitely desperate for attention.

I graduated high school, and I was going to go to journalism school and be a writer. The summer after my graduation, I met a boy I’d known in the past through church. He was a friend of a friend who would sometimes come to church. He was different and sort of grown up, and we started hanging out. And a month later, we were dating. I finally had a boyfriend, someone who actually liked me. And to make things even better, his family was still together.

His parents were together. It seemed like theirs wasn’t. His Mom worked at a church. She spent time involved in their lives. So I would come home from college and stay with them over the weekend, and she would do my laundry. I had been doing my own laundry since I was 13.

When I lived with my mom, she threatened not to let me use the washing machine and hang my clothes outside. The fact that his mom helped was something spectacular for me. You know, talk about red flags.

Early Relationship Dynamics

Elizabeth: The first time I met his mom, she was in his room changing his sheets. He was 17. We all went downstairs and there were a bunch of us friends, and he was like snapping at her to get out of his room. And I felt impressed. Or like, you know, I didn’t think you should talk to your parents like that. But I felt impressed that he could do that. And she accepted that without causing a huge blow up.

Because I definitely could never have that attitude with my mom. Unless I wanted a smack in the face.

Anne: So, to you, did it signal a good relationship, kind of?

Elizabeth: Yeah, yeah.

Anne: Due to your experience.

Elizabeth: Yes, that seemed like something accepting. Like they could actually, I don’t know, go back and forth instead of escalating into this awful scene. So yeah, you’re right. For all I knew, it was a healthy way of interacting. I was a freshman. He was in the delayed entry program to join the Army. And we grew really close, really fast.

And unfortunately, intimacy escalated, that was way too premature. Here I am a Christian having it with my boyfriend, feeling wrought with guilt because I knew better. And I wanted to do what God asked me. But I also felt like it happened, so now I can’t stop, and that was also the message I was getting from him. We started, and basically married now, so we can’t stop.

Anne: So this is what he told you. This is marital coercion.

Elizabeth: Right.

Anne: You didn’t know at the time it was coercion.

Elizabeth: Yes.

Coercion & Manipulation

Anne: For victims of coercion, you think you’re consenting, that was the purpose of the manipulation.

Elizabeth: That’s an example of it not exactly sounding right, but entering into his world and his logic. Which would end up being a long-term problem. Like, we lived in our own world. People just didn’t understand us. He always had an explanation for why he did things or why we should do certain things. That sort of made sense. And I wanted him to like me. And I liked him. I was again desperate.

So all those combined contributed to basically me putting aside whatever reservations I had. And going along with what he wanted, because another underlying issue here was a lack of close support. So my dad at this time had remarried, and I obviously had three younger siblings, and they were still living at home. There was just this sense that. I bothered them because they remarried. They were dealing with my younger siblings, they didn’t want to take care of me.

They didn’t have the capacity to offer that kind of support. I wanted to get out of the way. So I would come home and stay with my boyfriend’s family. And maybe go over there, but they didn’t seem interested in my life. In the meantime, I was getting very much ingrained with his family. I remember one time saying, I’m not okay with us being intimate anymore. I want to stop. And he basically said to me, show me in the Bible where it says that.

I wanted to flip through my Bible and find a verse, but I didn’t know where to look or how to interpret that. So I just didn’t know what to do.

I Didn’t Have The Ability To Say No

Elizabeth: And without someone saying, it’s okay if you want to stop. I just didn’t have the ability to say no.

Anne: What you didn’t have is understanding. You were gaslit by society, maybe by their church and your abuser. So when you’re in that fog of abuse, you don’t have the ability, but only because you don’t have the knowledge. Once you receive education about it. It’s like I can take a step toward that. But I just don’t want victims to blame themselves. It’s the opposite. It wasn’t your fault.

Elizabeth: I just didn’t know better.

Anne: Like, there’s nothing you could have done at the time, because you don’t know what you don’t know. When you don’t know what you don’t know, there’s no way to get out of that.

Elizabeth: Exactly. And when I finally did, and I don’t want to jump ahead, but when I finally did, I couldn’t go back.

Anne: Right, we’ll get to that soon.

Elizabeth: Yes, my freshman year was at a big university. I wasn’t involved, I would go to classes, but come back so I could talk to him. I felt obsessed with my boyfriend. He would come down at every opportunity. And occasionally we would get into fights. Like one time he told his younger brother when I was at their house to come at me with his bath mat that the dog had peed on.

And I was so mad I took out my anger on his younger brother. Because I had a younger brother about that age. He was egging his brother on, and now I’m the one to blame.

Is Marriage Meant To Be Hard: Joining The Army & Marriage

Elizabeth: Because of how I reacted, which wasn’t good either. I was just really angry. His whole family got mad at me, and had crossed a line. I felt embarrassed and mortified, so I withdrew and didn’t take his calls. I was like, we’re done. And I remember feeling at that point like, okay, I’m going to break up with him.

Then, when he talked to me and somehow felt like I had no choice again, I had to stay with him. It was a lonely world out there, and I had become part of his family. If I wasn’t part of his family, I didn’t have anyone. His little brother did not apologize.

There were no apologies from his family or from him. But even if he had apologized, how would I know if it was genuine? It was just, let’s move on. So I forgave and forgot another theme that would emerge later on. Like I said, he was going to ship off to basic training. And I decided to join the army, and I was going to join the reserves. And we would go to basic training simultaneously, and everything would be great. Because once he’s in the army, I could transfer to a unit wherever he is.

And I could get my college paid for, which was a big deal. Because I had taken out loans to pay for my first year of school. So we talked about marriage, and it was always brewing in the background. I said in one of his arguments, he said we already married. Because we’d been having intimacy.

And so I was like, we might as well just formalize this. We decided to marry a couple of weeks before we would both leave for basic training. And we did.

Pregnancy & New Beginnings

Elizabeth: I remember meeting my dad at the back of the church and going down the aisle, and feeling this sense of dread, not knowing what I was getting into, but feeling like it was too late.

Here all these people were, and I must keep going. When I said my vows, I genuinely meant them. I wanted to take care of him. I wanted to be a family with him. And I always remembered that throughout our marriage. But, a couple of weeks later, I needed to set to ship out for boot camp. And, the military has learned the hard way to give female recruits a pregnancy test before they leave for basic training. I found out I was pregnant at the military processing station.

Anne: Oh, wow. How did you feel when that happened? Did you feel happy, excited, sad? Did you feel confused?

Elizabeth: I was in shock. And there was also a sense of guilt, because this is the natural result of doing what I had done the last eight months. So there’s a lot of shame. I don’t know when I’d actually got pregnant. It was before we married. But I didn’t know that when I married, all I knew was that I was not feeling well. People say marriage is meant to be hard, but this hard?

I made it a point to pretend like got pregnant on our wedding night, because of the shame. Also from a church environment, knowing well that I was not fulfilling those expectations. So, basically, I lied for a while.

I Have The Baby & He’s Recuperating

Anne: I’m grateful that you’re sharing your story and how you felt. So many women have been coerced like this, and they haven’t understood they were being coerced. And then maybe they get pregnant. Then they feel like they have to marry, and they also want to marry, so there’s conflicting feelings.

Elizabeth: Exactly.

Anne: The end result is usually they can’t get help because they can’t tell other people what’s going on. Which is what your abuser wants. But you don’t know that at the time. You just think you’re protecting yourself from embarrassment. I think abusers know this and use it against you. It’s a way that they end up manipulating their victims. And that has happened to all of us.

Elizabeth: Yes, exactly. So they give you the option to nullify all your contracts with the military, or to stay in and go to training later. I decided to nullify everything and set my life on a new trajectory. He ended up shipping out exactly the same, went to training over that summer, and that fall I watched his graduation. We moved to a base, and our son was born two months after we moved there. So my son became the focus of my world.

During the early stages of the Iraq war, my husband deployed to Iraq a year after. I ended up moving back to where we came from. He ended up getting hurt, got a purple heart, and came home. So I took care of him.

Is Marriage Meant To Be Hard: Career & Family Life

Anne: Is his injury like a long term type of injury that’s going to affect him the rest of his life?

Elizabeth: He had some bad burns that eventually healed, and a fractured hip, that I think still gives him problems. He was in a wheelchair for a while, but he recovered completely. You wouldn’t know to look at him that he went through that. I will say it became his identity. It became this persona that he took on that is very much honored by people around him. He used that against me later on. He eventually is discharged from the army, and we continued our life in our hometown.

Elizabeth: And I graduated before him and got a job. Our son was getting ready for kindergarten. I talked about maybe homeschooling him. He and his family looked down on my background, and homeschooling. They thought my background was crazy and ridiculous. And they didn’t want anything to do with it. So is marriage meant to be hard still?

There was a lot of mocking about it. Even though that was part of who I was, it wasn’t welcome in that space. I put our son in public school and went to work, and rose pretty quickly in my career to levels of influence in our state politics. I worked as a reporter, and then started working in communications. My company regarded me well and used my abilities. Many people saw it was very visible. It was very public roles in the legislature and in state government.

Professional Success & Personal Degradation

Elizabeth: There was always this disconnect. I had this important job, I’d go off in my fancy dress in the morning and work for people who had a lot of influence. But I came home, and he constantly degraded me and put me down. There’s a lot of mockery about who I was. I have this exuberant personality and sense of humor. But he always regarded me as not funny, and just sort of stupid and too much. He communicated it to me in very subtle ways.

In the meantime, I wanted to have a good marriage. And so I would read books about marriage, especially Christian books about marriage. I would put those things into practice because I’m extremely self aware, which I’m coming to understand is a trauma response. Just trying so hard in my marriage to be the wife. I wanted him to recognize me, but it was never good enough.

One thing about him is that he’s a picky eater, and I love to cook and serve other people. So I would make these meals. He wanted steak or roast or something like that. And it was never quite good enough. He would put a bite in his mouth and taste it, and then say, oh, it’s okay. Maybe it could be different this time. This way next time.

Anne: Like, a condescending, nice try, honey, but… It sound like your husband was holding you back, maybe out of jealousy?

Elizabeth: It wasn’t even that sweet. He would taste it, and you could just tell by his expression, that there was something that was coming up short. I would just feel sad, but I would resolve to try better next time. to keep working to improve myself, whether that was my physical appearance or my abilities, or working out.

Running & Seeking Validation

Elizabeth: I was a runner at the time. And I had entered a 5k race to support our son’s school. I ended up being first place for the women’s division. There weren’t many people in the race, but there was still something that I was excited about. Coming home and I had this medal. And he’s like, well, when you beat my army PT score, you’ll know you’ve done something. And I felt devastated, because I never could do anything that meant anything to him.

I never knew what was going on and why I could never make him happy. Because all the marriage books I read basically presented this formula. Like if you respect your husband enough, if you submit to him, if you do these things, he’s going to love you back. He’s going to do his part. And it never worked for me, marriage was just so hard. It never worked for me. Looking back now, I see how marriage books from a Christian perspective were wrong.

Coming from a place where if you do this, this is what’s going to happen. It always talked about that if you respect your husband, he’s going to love you in the way you need. So I focused on my part and had to make sure I did everything perfectly. I met his every need. I was always there for him whenever, however, and whatever he needed, which was a lot. If I read a book and he came into the room, my attention was on him, but it never worked. He would treat me with disdain.

Is Marriage Meant To Be Hard? Emotional Neglect & Stonewalling

Elizabeth: There were issues that would come up inevitably, we could never get them resolved. He would never take responsibility for himself. Being married to him was so hard. There were occasions where I would elevate things like, okay, I know for certain that what he did or said was not okay. I just know it. I would have in my mind, like, I’m not going to let this go. I’m not going to just apologize. I would bring that to him and say, I’m not, you know.

Well, he would start stonewalling me. He ignored me for days until I finally relented and just apologized. Then I had to let go of whatever was actually going on with him and his behavior. I was always the problem. And I internalized that message. Many times I was just distraught that I was such a failure as a wife.

I felt discouraged. And that just left me vulnerable, because I was looking for affirmation all the time. Like, am I even acceptable? These are some effects from spiritual abuse. It got to the point where I didn’t even feel like I was a human. I felt like I was something different, and that was obviously what I struggled with throughout my life, just feeling like another. Feeling like somehow outside of mainstream society. This was along that same vein, like I was somehow worse or different, or my problems had no solution.

And he would talk about how he didn’t believe in feelings, like emotions are not logical. They serve no purpose. So how you feel doesn’t matter. I got that message a lot. If I said, hey, the way you did this hurt me in this way. He completely disregarded and mocked me.

Triangulation & Comparisons

Elizabeth: He would say I was so emotional, that it didn’t matter. I needed to be more like him, stoic, and such a leader and strong. I just needed to do what he said. There was also a lot of triangulation. He would point to other women and basically be a fan of them, especially about news reporters on the TV, local news reporters. He knew at one point that it was a dream of mine to be on a broadcast. Is marriage meant to be hard? It was heartbreaking for me.

I’d studied journalism in college, so he would be like a fan of these local reporters, and when they’d inevitably move on to another station, he would be like grieving. I was supposed to be like supportive or something. But obviously, it made me feel like I was lesser than and didn’t live up to that standard. Is marriage meant to be hard? Mine was hard.

Whenever there was a situation where I would share my view. Like for example, our son was playing basketball. There would be like these really tense situations in the car on the way home. Where my son hadn’t done something the right way in a game. I would be like, maybe next time you can try this. And he would say, no, don’t even do that. That’s dumb. So it was automatically wrong. And then he would basically restate what I had just said. It was almost like, it didn’t matter what I said.

Another example is in dining rooms, the chandelier is lower because it’s over the table. He had been hitting his head on the chandelier, and he just didn’t understand why. And I was like, we just need to move the table back.

Constant Undermining & Double Standards

Elizabeth: He automatically said, no, that’s not it. Then he paused for a minute. He was like, oh. That is one of the few times I remember that he actually realized. Maybe there is something to what she’s saying. Normally it was just, I’m wrong. What I said was stupid. I just needed to shut up. There were a lot of jokes about me, my physical appearance and my teeth. I didn’t like it. But I also wanted to look like someone with a sense of humor.

I was willing to go along with being self-deprecating, but it was really from a point of cruelty. It wasn’t affectionate. It was just putting me down. There were also many double standards. If something went wrong with our cell phones, like I accidentally dropped it and cracked the screen. That was a crisis. It was my fault. One time his phone fell out of his pocket, he stepped back, stepped on it and shattered the screen. He came home disappointed.

I was trying to be supportive. Then I realized that if I had done that, there would have been hell to pay. He would berate me for being so stupid. Of course, I wouldn’t treat him like that. I brought that up to him, trying to gently say, hey, what’s with this double standard? And this is an example of being in his world. He said, I’m already harsh enough on myself. I punish myself, but you need to be told that’s not okay by me, because you don’t think that way.

Anne: I need to teach you a lesson

Elizabeth: Exactly.

Anne: Yeah, the abuser way of thinking of it. Is marriage meant to be hard? It is with an abusive spouse.

Is Marriage Meant To Be Hard: Evangelical Views On Marriage & Intimacy

Elizabeth: Yeah, there was that double standard all the time. He would always have a convenient explanation for why it made sense. And eventually I knew there wasn’t anything I could do about it. It didn’t make sense to me all the time, but if I tried to challenge him, it would escalate into an argument. Then him stonewalling me and ignoring me for days until I finally relented.

Another angle of this, and it speaks to the evangelical world’s view on relationships between husband and wife. As we’ve established, I wanted to be a good wife. If I was not fulfilling his needs, I was falling short as a wife. I had this view that I had to meet his intimacy needs like every three days. He was on board with that. Looking back now, it was just very mechanical. He wouldn’t kiss me. There was a lack of intimacy.

Eventually, he coerced me into doing things that I didn’t want to do. But I felt stuck between this place where I have to meet his needs. And if I don’t, I’m not going to be the kind of wife I want to be. He was so persistent to make me do things I didn’t want to do that I eventually relented. It was very traumatic for me. Actually, towards the end, I started to say to myself, this can’t be right. Is marriage meant to be hard? I didn’t think it was supposed to be. didn’t know what to think.

Anne: Were you sharing it with anyone at the time?

Elizabeth: No.

Anne: Do you think that was part of why you didn’t know what to think? Because he had isolated you?

Isolation & Lack Of Support

Elizabeth: I would have never brought those things up to another person, because I didn’t want to dishonor him. And I felt like I would disrespect him or betray him if I brought those issues up. His needs and comfort, and everything was much more important than whatever I was experiencing. And looking back, I dealt with things alone, didn’t have support, accepted things for what they were, and didn’t know any different.

He definitely coerced me in that way and didn’t know what to do about it. It was for me. Yes, I felt isolated. We couldn’t make couple friends, because people didn’t want to be around him. He had the same friends since high school, and they were people willing to go along with what he wanted. Other people I tried to bring into our lives, whether from church or people I knew in high school, there was something wrong with them. I had very few friends.

I tried to get involved at our church, like a volunteer. Or do some sort of Bible study, but there was always some reason why I shouldn’t do that. If we would drop our son off on Wednesday nights, he would want to take me on a date. He would want to do something with me. And so I was like, if he’s initiating that, I’ve got to do that and not go to the adult Bible study.

What finally broke everything wide open, as I said, I had been involved in politics in our state and had a job. Through circumstances outside my control, that job ended after six months. Because of the way the political system works. I didn’t expect it. And he melted down.

Job Loss & Emotional Breakdown

Elizabeth: He could not handle the fact that I had lost my job and was going to be without work. We weren’t destitute by any means, but it was like such an injury to him that this had happened. What’s so interesting is that I’d always thought of him as this leader. You know, he’s got such a strong personality, and he has all these opinions and isn’t afraid to share them. And such a pronounced sense of right and wrong.

In a crisis, he wouldn’t function. Because he was so stressed out, or I don’t know, had anxiety or couldn’t control things. So that would all get taken out on me. That’s definitely what happened in this situation. I was the reason why this had gone badly. I could have done things differently. It was all my fault, of course. I was trying to tell him, let’s just trust God in this situation. I think things will work out.

People respect me. There are other opportunities out there, and let’s see what we can make happen. He just thought that was dumb. I remember wanting to pray with him about the situation. And he pulled his hands back from me and said, “No, I don’t do that”. It was a wake up call to me, because we’re supposed to be this Christian couple. Like what kind of Christian couple doesn’t pray together.

But again, I felt a sense of shame on me because I had failed somehow and somehow pushed my husband towards these actions. Is marriage meant to be hard? It was very hard.

Anne: Have you ever considered during that time, instead of him “losing it” that he saw this as an opportunity to assert more control and abuse you more because you were vulnerable?

Is Marriage Meant To Be Hard: Realization Of Abuse

Elizabeth: I haven’t considered that, no. Talk more about that.

Anne: So many people view abuse as like when they lost control. What we know is abuse is when they try to assert control. It doesn’t look like they’re having fun to us, because they look angry, bitter, and frustrated. But it’s an opportunity for him to truly, really abuse you because you’ve lost your job.

Elizabeth: Very possible.

Anne: It’s like kick them once they’re down. I’m not sure if that was the case in your situation, but I like to point that out. A healthy person would not take the opportunity to assert control and ensure there’s a power differential at a time like this. They would be trying to build up their partner or help them feel good about themselves. Is marriage meant to be hard? These are situations when abusers make it extra hard.

When you say at times of stress, he would fall apart. One thing I would like victims to consider is that during times of stress, they want to assert control. That’s when they want to dominate. That’s when they want to make you feel bad.

Elizabeth: From what you’re describing, yes, that was a pattern throughout our marriage. Where if there was a crisis, if there was something that went wrong, I would just want to deal with it with him and we can get through this together. This is just life, and he would use that to bark orders at me to make me feel awful for what happened. Yeah, like you’re saying to assert control. So I think you’re right.

Anne: For them, a crisis is an opportunity for abuse.

Elizabeth: Very interesting.

Realization The Extent Of The Abuse

Anne: It’s like a reason to abuse someone. Whereas if you hadn’t lost your job, it’s hard to go off on how bad of an employee you are.

Elizabeth: Yeah. All the things you did wrong. That’s absolutely right. So at this point, I worked with a coworker who got me this job, and felt really bad that this ended up happening. It was outside their control, and I didn’t know what to do. So I opened up like saying, this is what’s going on at home. I feel so bad. Can you help me get another job? And this person used that as an opening to say, actually, Elizabeth, I’ve been watching your marriage for a long time.

I’ve seen some things that I’m concerned about. And they sent me a few articles on abuse. At first, I was dismissive, because of what I’d been through with my mom. And I knew that was child abuse. There was a lot of physical violence in my childhood. That hadn’t actually happened in my marriage. So I was dismissive, having his mindset like, oh, emotions don’t matter. You just need to think about things logically.

Anne: Can we pause there for just a second?

Elizabeth: Yeah.

Anne: So I am like hyper-logical.

Elizabeth: Yeah.

Anne: So in my marriage, I was logical about everything. And instead, I was accused of being a robot, not being feeling enough, and not being compassionate enough. Is marriage meant to be hard? With an abusive husband, it is. They’re always going to use your strengths against you, and they’re going to exploit your weaknesses.

Elizabeth: Yes, yes.

Anne: So I want to put this out to everyone, whatever it is, the thing they were telling you, imagine you were the opposite.

Logical vs. Emotional Manipulation

Anne: I assure you they would have acted the same way.

Elizabeth: Yes.

Anne: To ensure everybody knows that it wasn’t about you being a human. Good for you. I’m so glad you weren’t a robot. Congratulations. Okay, thank you.

Elizabeth: It turns out that God made us with all these different parts of ourselves that actually make up who we are. So our logic, our emotions, our physical bodies, our spiritual bodies are all integrated together. We can’t cut off one part. And say that’s what’s healthy. And that was such a revelation to me. Like, actually, no, it wouldn’t have been healthy to become a Vulcan. That was not okay.

Anne: Also, you sound super logical to me. I’m guessing from your job you had to be really logical.

Elizabeth: Yes.

Anne: Let’s pretend for two seconds that he would have engaged you in a logical debate, I’m guessing you would have won. And the reason he had to go silent was because he never could have beat you logically.

Elizabeth: I mean, yes.

Anne: Because he was being illogical.

Elizabeth: Yes, you’re right. Another point of hypocrisy there: he would get angry. And anger is an emotion.

Anne: Exactly.

Elizabeth: But he would act like that doesn’t count.

Anne: Yes.

Elizabeth: So it was okay for him to be angry, but when I cried tears of frustration because I was so desperate for him to understand me, I was being emotional, illogical. I started reading everything I could get my hands on about abuse. And light bulb after light bulb started going off. I started seeing the patterns. Gaslighting, shaming and criticizing were all there. Is marriage meant to be hard? No, but with an abuser it is.

Is Marriage Meant To Be Hard: Discovering Patterns Of Abuse

Elizabeth: I just felt sick because I thought I was getting away from that path by marrying into his family and having a family of my own. So I got another job, surprise, surprise. It was a better job and it was more money with good coworkers, and I was good at it. It was a spiritual moment for me. I read an abuse book, it said are you willing to surrender the outcome of your marriage to God and let things fall where they may by saying no to this?

I had been trying to control the outcome. And I was so stuck on, we don’t divorce. 14 years of, I can grit this out. I can make things work. It’s up to me to make this work. This realization that it was actually out of my hands, and a large part of it was his responsibility. And he was not taking responsibility at all. You know, we had this beautiful house that we’d purchased together. A dream house, and we’d only been there a few years.

And I realized what it meant to say. I’m not going to do this anymore. I’m not going to put up with this. Is marriage meant to be hard? No, it isn’t. I started saying no. I started calling him out on his behavior and saying, I don’t want you to say that about my teeth. It’s not okay for you to tell me that I’m wrong and dismiss me out of hand. I’m actually saying something that you need to hear. He immediately noticed that something was different. His mom noticed too.

What’s interesting is she had always been supportive of me. We were good friends. She knew her son had issues, and she knew that he didn’t treat me well.

Setting Boundaries & Seeking Separation

Elizabeth: And I was like, I’m not going to keep putting up with this. She understood at that point. Well, there were a few nights I had been firm on my boundaries. He called his mom crying. She came over and was basically like, you’ve got to do what he wants you to do. You need to stop this silliness about what you’re doing, because she’s been married 35 years and marriage is hard.

That marriage is hard line is such a lie. Is marriage meant to be hard? Marriage is actually not hard. Marriage shouldn’t be that hard. But we always act like, Oh, you’ve got to sacrifice. You’ve got to die, like if your marriage is killing you. I moved into the guest room and had very little contact with him. I realized I needed everything to come through writing with him. So he could text me or email me. I could not have a conversation with him in person.

Because he was so good at manipulating and getting me off track and pointing the blame back on me. I would just get so confused. Everything in writing was a big factor in getting clarity. Because I would go back and look at those texts and say, okay, this is what’s going on here. I can identify. He’s trying to make me feel guilty here. I spent a few months getting strong, educating myself about what was going on.

There was a point where I said, okay, nothing is changing. He has not done anything to indicate that he cares enough to change his behavior. He’s not showing any remorse, or if he says, sorry, there’s no marked change of behavior. So, I decided to separate out of home.

Separation & Legal Proceedings

Elizabeth: And I wanted him to move out, because his parents had an extra bedroom. So he could live with them. I went to my dad and his wife’s house. They lived an hour away at that point, and I called him and said, listen, we’re going to separate. I need you to go to your parents’ house. And that didn’t go over well. I knew it wouldn’t. Like he cannot be moved unless he’s physically forced out of place.

So I moved in with a friend I knew from Bible study. She opened up her home to me, and I lived there for six weeks. A week after I realized, there was absolutely no movement. I will file for divorce. I had been thinking about that as a possibility, but I wasn’t there yet. It was too overwhelming to comprehend. I was thinking about our son. Thinking about, what does our witness look like if I do this?

Anne: When you say, what does our witness look like? What do you mean by that?

Elizabeth: Just the way that we live our lives is a testimony to what we believe.

Anne: Okay.

Elizabeth: You know, that’s a big piece of evangelicalism, which is being a witness to the world and showing God’s love and redemption. And the idea that our marriage couldn’t be redeemed was hard for me to grasp. There are theological issues there, because some people believe God controls everything.

So God can break into his heart and say, you’ve been treating your wife really poorly. The Bible talks about this a lot. Is marriage meant to be hard? Not like this. What I learned is that he has a very hardened heart, it’s a choice that he makes.

Is Marriage Meant To Be Hard: Smear Campaign & Family Dynamics

Elizabeth: And if he were to soften his heart, I’ve been doing it wrong. I’m going to go the other way, and going to make amends. I’m going to do the work on myself, so God would redeem that. But since he is so convinced that he is right in everything and never takes responsibility for his behavior, God allows him to make that choice. He has the free will to make that choice.

And I had to come to that realization. Because we want to have this idea that butterflies and rainbows, and God will do all these things. But here’s the thing. We work in cooperation with God. He didn’t make us puppets. What it means to be a follower of Christ is that you surrender your life and say, God, my life is yours. You move that way every day. Well, if you say those words, but your heart is hardened, you’re not following Christ. Because your heart is not there.

He started a smear campaign while we were separated. My boss came into my office one day and said, Elizabeth, I’m hearing things, and I don’t know what to think. Tell me what’s going on. And I was so mortified. He worked in a similar way for the state, and had access to people who had access to my boss, and basically had set them on me, through my boss. Is marriage meant to be hard? Abusers make it hard.

And his mom was also on me, and his aunt, with whom I had been good friends, and who seemed supportive of me. They saw his behavior suddenly against me. So that was extremely painful. He was making all sorts of accusations about me about my motivations.

He Lied & Manipulated At Work & With Family

Elizabeth: He said we just had some communication problems, and here I was causing all these problems and saying all these things about him. I was devastated. I was obviously mortified that it had leaked into my work life, my career. It just was more evidence that there was no change and that he didn’t love me. He couldn’t love me. You don’t treat people you love like that. And that was a really hard realization. Is marriage meant to be hard? It’s difficult when the husband’s abusive.

We’d always made it a priority to say love you when we got off the phone. So realizing those are just words, then the way he behaved or even what he’s capable of, I don’t believe he’s capable of actually loving other people. Some really hard realizations during that time period. But, I ended up able to move back into our house after about six weeks of out of house separation. That was because a judge ordered him to move out for the remainder of our divorce proceedings.

We were able to work things out through a conciliator. Although I had to sit across the table from him and basically work things out with our son. I think many survivors do this, where they’ve had all these realizations, so they’re trying to get other people to understand and explain all these things. It’s like the meme with the guy and the threads, and they’re making all these connections.

And so I was trying to explain to this lawyer who’s supposed to be mediating for us. And she’s like, I don’t care. I’m just here to make sure everything goes well. So we ended up in a divorce agreement.

Finalizing The Divorce

Elizabeth: During this time, he realized he couldn’t control me anymore, so he discarded me because I wasn’t any use to him. Unfortunately, his family was still angry at me. I had deleted him off my Facebook, but I hadn’t been able to bring myself to rid me of all his friends and family yet. And there was one post I made that said something, I can’t remember exactly, but they found it offensive and called me out.

His aunt said something about how I was driving around in my car, which had a Purple Heart license plate on it. He made me put it on because that was his identity. I was just trying to get credit or look good, because I hadn’t changed my license plate yet.

Anne: That you wanted people to think you were the Purple Heart?

Elizabeth: Mm hmm.

Anne: That’s hilarious. To put words in her mouth, and probably also, you were using him all along.

Elizabeth: Something like that?

Anne: Yeah, for your own aggrandizement.

Elizabeth: Yes, yeah, something like that.

Anne: Which is exactly what he was doing. That was just projection.

Elizabeth: Yeah.

Anne: Whatever comes out of his mouth and accuses you of doing is what he is actually doing.

Elizabeth: Right, and I know for a fact that she did not come up with that on her own. She doesn’t even live in town. So she would have had no way to know what license plate I had on my car.

Anne: That’s straight out of his mouth for sure.

Elizabeth: Exactly, yeah.

Anne: And other women get accused of being gold diggers or wanting the image like, I’m an attorney. She wanted to marry an attorney.

Elizabeth: Yes, exactly. I finalized the divorce.

Is Marriage Meant To Be Hard: Post-Divorce Reflections

Elizabeth: I tried to move on. Finding myself picking up the pieces, and honestly, it almost started to begin to feel inevitable. Having grown up with such a traumatic experience and dysfunction, never having people say, hey, that wasn’t right directly to my face. I felt bound and destined to repeat that sort of situation. Is marriage meant to be hard? It seems like it was meant to be hard for me.

Anne: You’re thinking this to yourself?

Elizabeth: Yeah.

Anne: I don’t think this is true, by the way. People tell this to survivors all the time, the victim blaming, and it’s just luck of the draw, who people marry. Because some women might be “attracted to that behavior”, but then their husband ends up being amazing, you know,

Elizabeth: Absolutely.

Anne: Maybe you don’t agree with me, but none of this was your fault. We don’t deserve to be abused, even if we’re broken. But anyway, you’re here at this point in your life where you’re thinking this is inevitable due to your injuries.

Elizabeth: Yeah. Maybe part of that sort of thinking is evidence that it’s hard to think about so many things outside your control.

Anne: Yeah.

Elizabeth: You know, you want to think through your life. You’re making these conscious, good decisions, and they’re not because of patterns from your past. But I think in my case, I was going down this stream and not being aware of my own agency, my own sense of self, and my own ability to shape my own world. So, I am definitely still healing. I’m trying to do better about owning my story. Thank you for giving me the chance to do that.

Healing & Self-Realization

Elizabeth: Like I said, there are not many people who know this about me. There are many themes that I’m trying to deal with around shame, rejection, and abandonment that are painful. At the same time, and I think this is probably my personality, I can see the gifts given to me because of my experiences. And not to say they were good, but they’ve shaped my understanding of other people well and shape my ability to deal with grief.

To deal with hard situations, and sit with people in grief and hard situations, and just be with them. And I’m grateful for that. Now I remarried a wonderful person. He is very steady. He’s respectful, extremely smart, loves me, and values who I am. That is something to get used to, I’ve had to get used to that. Because I still want to earn his love.

Those two things don’t work together. Earning and love, they don’t work together. And I think that’s something I’m going to be working through for the rest of my life. But, I’m definitely on that path.

Anne: So is marriage meant to be hard? When you said marriage doesn’t have to be hard work. You spoke from experience, because your current marriage doesn’t feel like hard work.

Elizabeth: It doesn’t. And maybe that’s a testament to how hard I worked before. So this seems really easy in comparison. It’s easy for me to think about things from his perspective. Not to say that we don’t have scuffles and things that we work through, but comparatively it’s a breeze.

Hope & Faith For The Future

Anne: If there was anything I could just like pour into our listeners, it would be hope. Hope that you can have a peaceful life, heal, and faith that any action you take towards safety will fruit something. Because so many victims think, well, I could try, but it wouldn’t do any good. And sometimes it doesn’t, right? Sometimes you try to have that conversation, and it doesn’t do any good.

Another thing I’ve been thinking about lately is there’s a scripture that says, God does not give his children a rock when they ask for a fish. He gives them a fish. Abuse victims think I’m praying and getting rocks, and God’s never gonna give me a fish. I’m just getting rocks. I think the reason that happens is they don’t realize there is an abuser between them and God’s blessings, who literally swats the blessings away. The fish are coming our way, but he is there like, nope.

You can’t get them, feel God’s love or people’s appreciation. You feel isolated, and they’re swatting it away. God wants to give us the fish. We can’t get the fish, we have an evil or wicked block in our life keeping it away. Having faith that every step taken towards safety will fruit something.

Elizabeth: Yes.

Anne: God wants to give you a fish. You found a relationship where you feel loved. I’m so thankful and grateful for you. And you feel God’s blessings.

Elizabeth: It’s amazing.

Anne: You’re starting to feel the fruits of your own righteousness. If you really submerge in scripture, even if you do your best to be righteous. You can’t feel the fruits of it when you marry a wicked man. Is marriage meant to be hard? Being married to an abuser is hard.

Is Marriage Meant To Be Hard: Overcoming Wickedness & Finding Solid Ground

Elizabeth: Yes, and coming to terms with the idea that wickedness was close to you all this time. And affected you so deeply is really hard. There’s a lot of grief there, because you thought he was something and he’s actually something else. It’s like the ground is disappearing from under your feet, and you have to learn how to stand up again and realize that’s okay. Like those experiences are what they are, but there’s also solid ground out there.

Anne: Processing our stories is part of that. Is marriage meant to be hard? No, it shouldn’t be. As you’ve shared your story. The one thing I hear is strength and an awesome sense of responsibility for yourself and your own life. That’s one thing that I find awe inspiring about survivors. Even though we are victims of other people’s atrocious behavior. We still maintain the sense of responsibility for ourselves and our lives. And that is what helps us get to safety.

And that is what will help us live a life of peace. I think it’s remarkable that almost all victims maintain the sense of responsibility, even when acknowledging they were a victim. And I think that’s cool. I hear that in your voice. I hear this strength and that you acknowledge your injuries and are working to heal them from a place of humility. That is so inspiring. So thank you so much for sharing.

If you’re lying awake at night wondering, “What will this do to my kids?”—you’re not alone. But divorce co-parenting research tells a very different story than what most women have been told.

Let’s walk through what the research actually shows—especially for mothers trying to create a calmer, safer home for their children.

Divorce Co-Parenting Research You Need to Know 1. Divorce Is Not Universally Harmful to Kids

One of the biggest fears mothers carry is that divorce will “ruin” their children.

But divorce co-parenting research shows something important:

• The majority of children adjust over time
• Most return to baseline emotional health within about two years
• Long-term harm is not the norm

Yes, kids may feel sadness, confusion, or grief at first. That’s real. But temporary pain is very different from lifelong damage.

Think about a mom who finally leaves a chaotic home—her child might cry at the change… but also start sleeping better, laughing more, and relaxing in ways she hasn’t seen in years.

2. The Real Risk Factor Isn’t Divorce—It’s the Home Environment

Research consistently shows:

• Children in high-conflict or abusive homes often struggle more than children of divorce
• In the most toxic environments, kids do significantly better after divorce

In fact, in the worst situations, outcomes can be dramatically better when the parents separate.

That means the real question isn’t:

“Is divorce bad for kids?”

It’s:

“What are they living with right now?”

3. Kids Always Have Value

Another common fear: “If I leave, my kids won’t believe in marriage.”

But divorce co-parenting research shows:

• Most children of divorce still grow up to value long-term relationships
• The difference in divorce rates between children of divorced vs. non-divorced parents is relatively small

And here’s what many moms notice in real life: Children often become more thoughtful about relationships. They see the difference between:

• a tense, confusing home
• and a calm, respectful one

And they quietly decide which one they want someday. To find out if you’re experiencing emotional abuse in your home, take my free emotional abuse test.

4. Short-Term Stress Does Not Equal Long-Term Damage

During and after divorce, kids may:

• Cry more
• Struggle with transitions
• Have temporary regressions (like sleep issues or school stress)

That’s to be expected, which is why women want to avoid divorce. But research makes a clear distinction, the longer term stress of living with abuse in the home is worse.

5. Exposure to Harmful Behavior Matters More Than Family Structure

One of the most overlooked findings in divorce co-parenting research:

Children who are exposed to ongoing harmful behavior are at higher risk than those who experience separation.

Even partial separation can help:

• Reducing exposure—even 50% of the time—can improve outcomes
• Kids benefit from having at least one stable, emotionally safe environment

Think of it like this:

If one home feels tense, unpredictable, or confusing…
and the other feels calm and steady…

Children notice.

They learn.

And over time, they gravitate toward what feels safe.

6. The “Single Mom Outcomes” Narrative Is Overstated

You’ve probably heard:

• “Kids from single-parent homes struggle more”
• “They’re more likely to get in trouble”

But when you actually look at the data:

• Differences are often small
• Many outcomes are nearly identical between groups
• The gap is frequently exaggerated

For example:

• Slight increases in certain risks exist—but they’re often just a few percentage points
• The vast majority of kids in both groups are doing okay

What matters far more is:

• emotional stability
• consistency
• and a parent who is present and grounded

7. Many Kids Understand—and Even Support—the Divorce

This is the part no one talks about openly.

In surveys and real-life experiences:

• Many children—especially as they get older—express relief after divorce
• Some openly say they’re glad the conflict ended
• Others may not say it out loud… but show it through behavior

A mom might notice:

• fewer stomachaches
• less tension at home
• more openness in conversations

Not because divorce is easy—but because the environment improved.

What Divorce Co-Parenting Research Really Tells Us

When you step back and look at the full picture, the research is surprisingly consistent:

• Divorce is not automatically harmful
• Toxic environments are often more damaging than separation
• Kids are resilient—especially with one safe, stable parent

And maybe most importantly:

You are not choosing between
“hurting your kids” and “protecting your marriage.”

You’re often choosing between:

• ongoing confusion, tension, and instability
  or
• a hard transition that can lead to clarity and peace

Transcript: Divorce Co-Parenting Research: 7 Truths To Know

Anne: I have Gretchen Baskerville on today’s episode. She is a Christian divorce recovery leader and researcher. For 20 years, she has worked with Christian women going through difficult life saving divorces. She listens with compassion to those who have suffered from domestic violence, betrayal, infidelity, addicted partners, and emotional abuse.

She herself is a survivor of a toxic marriage. And she walked through her own life saving divorce and was a single mother for many years. Today, she’s happily remarried. She is a graduate of Wheaton College with a degree in Bible and Christian education. Welcome Gretchen.

Gretchen: Oh, it’s so great to be with you, Anne. Thank you for having me.

Anne: So today we’ll talk about divorce co-parenting research about divorce and marriage. And for my non-religious friends listening, stay tuned. These are common myths women of faith. Faith encounter, but it’s also societal things that people say.

Myth 1: Divorce Is Universally Destructive For Kids

Anne: So Gretchen, both women of faith and just women in general, regardless of their paradigm, they really feel like divorce is going to hurt their kids.

Gretchen: This myth that divorce is universally destructive for kids is not true. When you have gone through a really destructive marriage. So I’m not talking about someone who wants an “I’m bored divorce” or an “I feel unfulfilled divorce” or an “I miss the party life divorce.” If you’re thinking it might be time to leave, I’m talking about people considering or having gone through a divorce for serious reasons. What I call the life saving reasons.

It says to depart from evil. That would be a pattern of sexual immorality, physical violence, chronic emotional coercion, life altering addictions, abandonment, in many cases severe neglect or indifference. These are people who aren’t looking for a grass is greener divorce. They are looking for relief from the chaos. They want safety, and that’s where this first myth comes in.

Divorce is not universally destructive to children. The truth is, 8 in 10 kids of divorce turn out fine. With no safety. Long term, emotional, psychological, or social problems. And we’ve known that for over 30 years. Some critics are gonna misquote me, and they’re gonna say, you know, Gretchen denies kids feel any pain, sadness or grief. You know, Gretchen is claiming that kids just sail through divorce without any negative feelings at all, and, and that’s not at all what I’m saying.

Anybody who’s ever been through a divorce with little children knows how tough it is. The children will feel pain and sadness, confusion and grief. Mine certainly did. They may miss the other parent or not. They may cry a lot. Mine did.

Long-Term Effects Of Divorce On Kids

Gretchen: But on average, kids return to their normal level of emotional health after those first two stressful years. And having those additional years of stress from moving, maybe from finding a new school, maybe from having to make new friends, are different. From saying that a kid has lifelong, long-term, serious emotional, psychological, or social problems. Now, I know what your listeners are thinking.

Because I had one of those hostile divorces where my ex was using the kids to hurt me. So the stress went on way longer than two years. Because I had ten years of going through family law court, over custody issues. So, yes, in those kinds of cases, yeah, the stress and tension will continue. But here’s what’s so interesting. The early researchers found this.

Here’s Dr. Mavis Hetherington, even from the 1980s and 90s, she had already tracked divorced families for 20 years. She says, in the short run, divorce is brutally painful to a child, but the negative long-term effects have been exaggerated. And that’s Dr. Mavis Hetherington from the University of Virginia.

Anne: It’s so interesting to have actual statistics on this. Because abusive men, or their flying monkeys, have perpetuated this myth as a way to manipulate a woman, control and exploit her.

Gretchen: Absolutely. Because it’s ingrained in our society. Even if you’re not religious, you’ve heard this all over the place that divorce universally destroys kids. The bestselling book 22 years ago was a book called The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce by Wallerstein. And we’ll talk about her later. But people love to quote that book because of one page in her introductory section, where she really condemns all divorces as selfish.

Divorce Co-Parenting Research: Manipulation By Abusive Partners

Gretchen: And wow, I still hear quotes from that page on social media now. And so I have to push back and say, well, what about these other 20 quotes from her other pages? But yes, abusers themselves manipulate us. People who believe in marriage at any cost. They don’t care how much you and the kids are destroyed. They will repeat this myth all day long.

Anne: In the marriage, at any cost, they don’t care if you or the kids are destroyed. What they’re saying is we care about the consequences to him. We don’t mind so much if you have them or your kids have them. If you need support from a group of women who totally understand, sign up for Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions.

So myth number two.

Myth 2: Kids Won’t Value Marriage After Divorce

Anne: If you divorce, your kids won’t value marriage. So in other words, when they get older, they too will get divorced. By the way, I’ve never thought this because all of my friends who had divorced parents, they highly value marriage. So I have not personally seen that in my own experience.

Gretchen: This is another fear bomb that especially Christian organizations will put out there, especially the ones that want you to stay married and favor the the abuser, even the pedophile over the wife and the children.

Myth number two about what the Bible says about divorce is that your kids won’t value the sanctity of marriage. But the truth is that most marriages of kids from divorced homes are lifelong. In fact, most people who marry in the United States have lifelong marriages, including children of divorce. Now it is true that children from divorced homes are just a bit more likely to get divorced. The top researcher on this topic for the last, I want to say 22, 23, 24 years is, uh, from your area.

He’s from the University of Utah, Dr. Nick Wolfinger. And in 2018, he said adult children of divorced parents have a 47% percent divorce rate. And those people whose parents did not divorce had a 40 percent divorce rate. In other words, there’s not a huge difference between those two groups, only 7%. So If somebody listening to this is staying just because of this myth, yeah, it’s not worth it for 7%.

Anne: Did this research talk about any divorce or divorcing the person’s actual parent?

Impact Of Grandparents’ Divorces

Anne: So, for example, my grandpa had divorced twice before he met my grandma, but is it only talking about when they divorce the parent of the kid?

Gretchen: You know, that’s a good question, and I also don’t think it has been studied, the effect of grandparents. I think it’s bio parents.

Anne: My father’s dad, his entire family, more or less, like so many of them, divorced multiple times. But all their children didn’t. My parents aren’t divorced, for example, and a ton of their kids aren’t divorced. So I never had a negative feeling about divorce, just because my dad’s parents and their family had a ton of divorces.

Which kind of signaled some unhealthy stuff. But the kids were like, wow, that was unhealthy. We want to be more healthy. People don’t think, hmm. Maybe they learned the opposite from their parents.

https://youtube.com/shorts/F9nPIWOVW5k

Gretchen: Bingo, a couple of university professors actually wanted to see if this was true. They wanted to see if different kinds of divorce affected kids differently. So if the divorce was for serious reasons, a divorce to find relief from an abusive home made a huge difference in how kids saw marriage or valued marriage. So kids whose parents got life saving divorces for serious reasons still It was unbelievable.

And here’s what the researchers found. I’ll just read their last sentence. The present study suggests one set of circumstances that a parental divorce may not undermine an offspring’s commitment to marriage. If it ends and especially discordant and aversive, that means really bad, toxic, betrayal oriented, abuse oriented parental marriage.

Debunking Myths About Divorce

Gretchen: And that’s amazing, because we were all taught that if we divorce, we’re setting a bad example for our kids. In reality, kids know right from wrong, and kids know that marriage should be safe, loving, and respectful.

Anne: Yeah, I mean, just logically speaking, it seems like kids who observe a terrible, abusive marriage, might value marriage less, because they might be like, is this what marriage is?

This is a mess, I’m not into this. But if you have a parent who is like, Hey, I deserve to be treated well, and this isn’t loving and safe. So I’m gonna get divorced. The bible says marriage is supposed to be a loving and safe place. It’s interesting what we think we’re teaching our kids, but then what we would actually be logically teaching them through our example.

Gretchen: They’re not under the same pressure as we are, and they know what a marriage ought to look like. And they know that an abusive marriage is no marriage at all. But she thinks she has to stay, and we’re talking about further injury, psychologically and physically. When she’s in despair, she’s been driven into depression, we’re talking about suicide, we’re talking about even homicide.

Myth 3: Divorce Causes Lifelong Issues For Kids

Gretchen: There are many things worse than divorce. Father’s Day is a great time for father’s rights organizations to really hammer on this myth that a two parent married home is always superior to a single parent home. And that’s absolutely not true, and it’s been proven over and over again. There are times when divorce is good for kids. And by the mid 1990s, how come no one ever told us this? Because we know that it’s the abuse and betrayal that broke the marriage.

So the question becomes in people’s minds. Especially since we tend to say, well, is this abuse or is this a normal marriage with typical ups and downs? So I find that whenever I bring this up, women say, well, I don’t know, maybe I’m not in a highly toxic home. I mean, we never scream at each other.

What qualifies as a highly toxic home? So researchers divided all the marriages into five categories on a spectrum, right? From safe, accepting and loving on one end to highly toxic marriages. What they said is the level four and level five marriages absolutely divorce is best for the kids. For those at like level five, it can be 10 times better for the kids. What it’s really saying is that the effects of abuse are so much worse than the effects of divorce. That the kids’ well-being was 10 times higher.

Now let’s look at the next level down, what we would still call toxic homes. Those homes were at least one and a half times better in cases where the kids’ parents divorced than if they had stayed.

Living In Two Different “Countries” Post-Divorce

Gretchen: It’s important for us to realize that although divorce does cause them stress, worry, and nightmares, they may even forget their toilet training. Most of these repercussions go away in about two years, but the abuse is far, far worse than the effects of divorce.

Anne: With a divorce, you cannot control what happens at your ex-husband’s home, right? So I like to think of it as your children get this experience living in two different countries. And they hopefully will feel and see that in the one country, it feels yucky, confusing, and chaotic. There’s always some weird thing going on.

And then the other country, it feels safe, calm and peaceful. And that they’ll start to recognize those two cultures and start making choices for themselves about what type of life they would like to have.

Gretchen: Absolutely. Because many people will say, Well, if I stay married, I can protect them from him. That’s the same story I gave myself. There’s no way you can stay awake 24 /7. You have to go grocery shopping. And they’re observing the covert disdain, dismissiveness, indifference in the home.

Divorce Co-Parenting Research: The Jaffe Study

Gretchen: But there’s an incredible study we were never told about. It’s called the Jaffe study. And it says if a father has at least three of the seven antisocial traits, and they listed them. That if the children live with him 24/7 seven days a week. Then they are one in eight chances likely to develop conduct disorders themselves. If you can get them out of that house 50% of the time. If they live with you 50 percent of the time, you can drop that in half.

And so it is something that women thinking about divorce need to consider, that just getting them away from him some of that time. As you say, into the kind, loving country and culture, and getting them away from the chaotic, strange, manipulative culture, it makes a difference. I wanted to summarize myth three by saying, this is the basic rule of thumb. If the marriage is bad, divorce is good for kids.

This next myth often shows up in marriage at any cost organizations.

Myth 4: Divorce Shatters Kids’ Safety

Gretchen: They will say, kids suffer when moms and dads split up. They will say divorce itself shatters the child’s basic concept of safety. They want you to believe that legal experience will cause the children to suffer even more than they are now. Focus on the Family is one of the biggest purveyors of this particular myth. They tell abused wives it doesn’t matter how bad it is now, just the act of divorce will make it even worse for your kids.

They will suffer even more. Divorce, the legal act, shatters the kids basic concept of safety.

Anne: The Bible says to protect children, you know what really shatters their basic concept of safety? Repeated abuse. Can we just pause here to talk about Focus on the Family for a minute?

Gretchen: Yeah, sure.

Anne: So throughout your writing, you have specifically named Focus on the Family as a disseminator of incorrect information about the harms of divorce. They are hell bent on women staying in their marriage no matter what. And so the effect of this on victims of abuse is that it sides with the abuser. And victims of abuse have a hard time knowing what their options are for safety. In the light of this. Do you have any inkling as to what their underlying motivations are?

Gretchen: I can only guess. I’ve never sat in on their board meetings or executive committees, but I was a donor to them for years. I’ve given them thousands of dollars. And I’ve read all their books.

Motivations Behind Anti-Divorce Messaging

Gretchen: And I’ve listened to all their broadcasts, so I have a feel for the milieu of what’s going on over there. First of all, I think they make divorce a culture war issue. They want to say, we moral people, we religious people, we Christian people, we don’t divorce. That’s for quitters. That’s for people who just can’t go the distance. So they have a culture war reason to do it. This is a non-profit organization that depends on the donations of people like me and others.

So if you can say, ooh, the boogeyman, the enemy, is divorce. And those lazy quitters, those divorcees who follow the Hollywood divorce lifestyle, then you can bring in more money. And again, like I said, I’ve never been told this, but being a longtime listener, I feel it when I listen to their broadcasts. We’re the moral people in America. If you want your money to promote morality, send it to us at Focus on the Family.

Another issue is that they don’t believe the Bible says you can divorce for abuse. Now that’s because they ignore two verses in the Old Testament. In their mind, they don’t have a verse that specifically says that. Although there are several verses that do. Third, they love to say God hates divorce. Even in their articles on what to do if you discover your husband has been doing unthinkable child molesting to a child in your home.

It’s unbelievable, and I don’t get it. In that same article, where they talk about pedophiles being married to a pedophile. They say God hates divorce. They can’t even bring themselves to say, God hates child abuse. Get the heck out of there, divorce this guy.

Misinterpretations Of Research On Divorce

Gretchen: Nor do they say Jesus in the New Testament condoned divorce for sexual immorality. I think it’s either the culture war issue. They want to bring in the money from donors by promoting themselves as the only moral and decent voice in America. And then, you know, they have a religious angle too.

Anne: News to focus on the family. If in an article about someone abusing a child, you say the bible says divorce is the worst part. Instead of abuse, you do not have the moral high ground. So, now back to myth number four. We were talking about that before if you divorce, your kids will suffer even more than they are now, and it will never get better.

Gretchen: I want to talk about a book we discussed earlier called The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce. This book has been so powerful in our society for 22 years. And like I said, one page kind of demeans divorcees as selfish. And just wanting to prance off to the grass is greener, and just find another partner. What people miss is the rest of the book. where Dr. Judith Wallerstein, the author, talks about the other side of divorce.

But why is this so important, why would I bring up a 22 year old book? It’s because I still hear people quoting it. I saw a major pastor quote it extensively last year. And so I jumped in and said, Hey, you missed the quote on page 300. Hey, you missed the quote on page 19, You’re getting it wrong. Hey, you’re misinterpreting what Dr. Wallerstein said in this book. This book is so powerful in our collective conscious, whether you’re religious or not.

Quotes From Dr. Wallerstein

Gretchen: Brand new textbooks that were just released in the last year on family sociology still have multiple paragraphs debunking Dr. Judith Wallerstein’s book. If these professors who are writing textbooks still consider her book to be a danger 22 years later, I think we need to address that.

Okay, so here’s what people need to know from Dr. Judith Wallerstein. She says, “Children raised in extremely unhappy or violent intact homes face misery in childhood and tragic challenges in adulthood.”

Here’s another quote. And this is from the same book, by the way. She says, “I’m not against divorce. How could I be? I’ve seen more examples of wretched, demeaning, and abusive marriage than most of my colleagues. I’m keenly aware of the suffering. I’m also aware that for many parents, the decision to divorce is the most difficult decision in their lives. They cry many a night before taking such a drastic step.”

Well, that kind of contradicts her one page in the book, where she accuses us all of being selfish. Here’s another from the introduction of that book. She says, “And of course, I’m aware that many voices on the radio, on television, and in certain religious circles say divorce is sinful. But I don’t know of any research, mine included, that says divorce is universally detrimental to children.”

I feel like she’s done so much damage. I want to read one more. “Although our overall findings are troubling and serious, we should not point the finger of blame at divorce per se. Indeed, divorce is often the only rational solution to a bad marriage. When people ask if they should stay for the sake of the children, I have to say, of course not.”

Cherry-Picking Data To Support Myths

Anne: The “damage” she has done wasn’t her. It was people taking the one thing she said, and then ignoring all the other things. I mean, they could have used the other stuff instead.

Gretchen: Right, it’s called cherry picking, and it’s also fraudulent when you say this is what this researcher believes. And then you ignore 90% of what she said, and you only cherry pick the one thing. And Focus on the Family is a big perpetrator of this. They’ve articles on their website today where they’ve removed four words from a quote. That dramatically changes the meaning. They’ve left whole sentences out of quotes that dramatically changed the quotes meaning.

They tell you that Wallerstein said children are destroyed. In reality, Wallerstein herself, who was indeed one of the most negative of the researchers. Still herself said 7 out of 10 kids of divorce came out fine. So, there’s just this misinformation. This myth is another one Focus on the Family loves to put out there.

Myth 5: Kids Will Be Abused By Stepparents:

Gretchen: I’ve seen it on several other websites, and it says that if you divorce and remarry. Their new stepdad will abuse your kids. And although it happens, and I don’t want to minimize this at all, there are definitely abusers out there. I am sure there are many on dating apps, and I’m sure there are many watching for women with young children. But it doesn’t happen as often as these organizations want you to believe.

For example, about 4 in 100 step parent families, so blended families, have reported an incident of child abuse of any kind. So it’s four in 100. If that’s what’s holding you in your abusive marriage, because your next relationship would have a four in 100 chance, I think you better rethink that.

Anne: But they’re abused now, so there’s a 100% chance they’ll be abused in your home where you live. If you don’t get divorced. You’re trading the 100 percent chance they currently have of being abused for a 4 in 100 chance of being abused by a stepparent, assuming you are legally required to get remarried? But you’re not required to be remarried. So you can just get divorced, and then that four out of a hundred chance goes to zero.

Gretchen: It’s all part of a pantheon of allegations they make that try to undermine single moms. You won’t have very much money, and your sons won’t have an example. Be ready for all of these to roll out for Father’s Day. You’re going to hear all of these in social media. Kids are always better off with a dad. Heck no, they’re not. Not if the dad has more than three of the seven antisocial traits. That father’s actually damaging the kids.

Studies On Kids’ Outcomes Post-Divorce

Gretchen: So I get exactly what you’re saying. And as a person who was single myself for 20 years after my divorce. And I raised my little children all by myself. We hear this all the time, oh, pregnancy, drinking, drugs, and everything. At least in my world, we were all told that our kids would fail in life if we got divorced, it does not say this in the bible. We were told it says divorce is bad. That they would drop out of school, do drugs, get pregnant, on and on.

But it turns out that when you look closely at those studies by family type. Kids raised by single parents usually do as well, or only slightly worse, like a smidgen worse than kids from two parent homes. So let me describe a few studies where kids of divorce do indeed fare just a tiny bit worse than kids from two parent married homes. The first is a study of substance abuse kids from ages 12 to 17.

And it turns out that only six in a hundred kids from single mother homes had a substance abuse problem. Compared to, get ready for this, only 5 in 100 kids from married two parent homes. That’s only 1 in 100 kids. That’s not much. Let’s look at behavior problems in school. Somebody sent me a text message and said, Oh my goodness, have you seen this horrible study? It says that kids from single parent homes are 60% more likely to be expelled or suspended from school.

Will Kids Thank You For Divorcing?

Gretchen: So I looked at the actual data from the research, and it said, okay, granted. Five in a hundred kids from married birth parent family ever get suspended or expelled, okay? How much higher do you think it is for kids from single? It’s only eight. Eight in a hundred kids from separated or divorced mom homes. So, they want us to believe it’s five in a hundred kids in two parent married homes. It must be fifty in a hundred kids from separated or divorced mom homes.

It’s not. It’s only three in a hundred more. Please stop, stop the fear bombing. Stop trying to coerce us and manipulate us to stay with these guys. There’s one last thing I want to talk about, and that is, will my kids thank me for divorcing? I did a poll last week of 3, 500 on Facebook. I asked, is at least one of your children glad you divorced? And eight in ten respondents said yes, at least one of my children supported the divorce.

One in ten said, well, I’ve never asked. And one in ten said, “No, none of my children were in favor or supportive of the divorce.”

We were always told that kids would hate their parents and resent you for the rest of their lives for divorcing. And that’s absolutely not true. What we have been told isn’t what it says. My kids would say, Mom, we’re so glad you divorced Dad. And they would also say, we don’t feel any different from any other kids. We feel just like kids from two parent homes.

The Research Says Stay safe

Gretchen: Yeah, when researchers found kids of divorce who had serious problems later in life. Often they discovered they had behavior problems long before the divorce. Maybe as long as 12 years before the divorce. In other words, the destructive home caused the problems, not by the divorce itself.

Anne: Regardless of whether or not you’re considering divorce. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop will teach you the strategies you need to get to emotional safety. Divorce may be a step on your journey to safety. Many women still face post separation and post divorce abuse. So make sure you get the strategies you need to create a safe home.

Gretchen, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us.

Gretchen: Wow, it’s been a privilege, Anne. Thank you for having me.

Has your husband betrayed your trust, lied to you, or left you feeling confused about what’s really happening? Many women think, “Maybe we just need couples therapy near me to fix this.”

It makes perfect sense to want support when the marriage feels unstable.

But here’s what most women don’t learn until much later:

After interviewing over 200 women who experienced their husband’s betrayal, I discovered that couple therapy often makes things worse if he has a history of lying. Many women told me they walked out feeling even more confused than they were when they walked in.

Before you schedule couple therapy near me, here’s what you need to know.

Why Couple Therapy Near Me Often Backfires After Betrayal

Any couple therapy, whether it’s near you or if you do in online, is designed for two people who are honest, transparent. But when betrayal or deception happened, couple therapy sessions tend to shift in the wrong direction. Women describe:

• feeling talked in circles
• being treated as if both partners contributed equally
• having their concerns minimized or reframed
• leaving sessions with more confusion instead of clarity

Instead of addressing the real issue, his choices, his patterns, and his secrecy, therapy often redirects the focus onto “communication skills,” or “relationship dynamics.”

Meanwhile, the woman is still left without the one thing she needs most: Answers. Consider taking my free after infidelity email course.

What You Need Before Looking For Couple Therapy Near Me

Before you sit in a room with a couples therapist near you and try to explain what’s been happening, you need a clear, simple framework for understanding:

• what his behavior actually means
• the signs that indicate whether therapy will help—or harm

That’s why I created the Clarity After Betrayal workshop.

It’s the resource over 200 women I interviewed told me they desperately needed before spending months or years in therapy that didn’t address the real problem.

The videos series helps you:

• understand the patterns behind gaslighting and mixed messages
• stop second-guessing what you’re experiencing
• see your situation clearly, without anyone minimizing it
• be confident about your next steps

If you’re trying to figure out whether couple therapy near me will help your marriage, the workshop is the essential first step.

👉 Clarity After Betrayal ($27)

Transcript: Considering Looking for Couples Therapy Near Me? What You Need To Know

Anne: I have a member of our community on today. We’re going to call her Ruby. Welcome, Ruby.

Ruby: Thank you, Anne. I feel privileged to be here and to help other women in my situation feel like they’re not alone.

Anne: Let’s start with your story.

Ruby: We met through a mutual friend who now completely sees what he is and feels devastated for me. He once told me he wanted to pursue someone else and realized I was easier to con.

Anne: Wow.

Ruby: Her parents were stable, and mine weren’t. She had an aware mother and a really good dad. For me, scripture influenced my choices in a way that made me believe I couldn’t leave my home unless I was married.

Anne: Looking back, you realize that wasn’t true?

Ruby: Correct. Technically I could have left, but heavy condemnation surrounded any thought of it. People insisted that leaving without being married “wouldn’t be of God.” We met when I was 19, and he used church language, God, and scripture to present himself as someone who wanted the same family life I wanted.

I thought I was choosing a righteous man. He acted fun, lively, and said all the right things. I had no reason then to imagine I might one day start searching for clarity or wondering if a couples therapist near me could help.

Early Red Flags Even Before Thinking About a Couples Therapist Near Me

Ruby: The long-distance relationship made his con easier because he controlled what I saw. He always said our time together was “time well spent.” That illusion made it harder for me to question things later.

Fourteen months later we married, and I became pregnant. He pressured me into premarital sex, something I never wanted because of my values. That pressure created shame that stayed with me for years.

Ruby: My family felt devastated, and people shunned me. He never carried any of that shame. That contrast should have warned me long before I ever wondered whether a couples therapist near me could help make sense of what was happening.

Anne: Many women describe that same pressure. They don’t recognize it as coercion until much later. The so-called “righteous man” eventually uses the shame against them for years.

Anne: Was that true for you?

Ruby: Yes. He used anything he could to break me down. He recognized my guilt and took advantage of it.

The Pattern of “Lucid Moments” That Created More Confusion

Ruby: Sometimes he had what I call lucid moments. Once he admitted our premarital sex was his fault. Weeks later, he denied ever saying it.

He always knew the truth, but he twisted it whenever it served him. Those moments confused me and made it harder to see the bigger pattern, something a couples therapist near me would likely misinterpret as miscommunication.

Anne: They sometimes drop a tiny bit of truth to manipulate. Then they pretend they never knew it.

Ruby: Exactly. He did that for years. He once told me the kids and I would be better off with another man, then denied it the next day.

His motives were calculated and passive-aggressive. He wanted me to look unstable.

Anne: Do you think he sometimes told the truth so you would be the one to take action and then he could blame you?

Ruby: Yes. He wanted me to feel responsible for everything while he stayed in control.

His Image vs. His Private Behavior

Ruby: Early on, he told me he’d been wild in the Navy but stopped drinking after waking up on a bathroom floor. That was fine with me because I wasn’t a partier. He wanted to look reformed.

He claimed he had never slept with anyone before, but then he hinted at inappropriate situations, like a coworker undressing in front of him. I believed him because he framed those stories as accidents instead of choices.

Later the military discharged him, and he tried to blame everyone else. Looking back, the pattern stood out clearly, and no couples therapist near me could have fixed a man committed to deception.

I don’t believe he was a virgin when we met. He used the idea of “we made this mistake together” to bind me to him. Now I see that as another lie.

Anne: That’s very likely.

Ruby: Yes.

What Ruby First Believed About the Problems in the Marriage

Anne: Let’s go back in time for a moment. What did you think the problems were back then? Did you believe he was stressed at work, overwhelmed, or dealing with normal marriage challenges?

Ruby: I thought the good outweighed the bad. He acted very family-oriented and talked about caring for his parents. So I assumed everyone had flaws, and as long as more things went right than wrong, we were okay.

Anne: Did you ever think it was your fault? Did you ever think, “If I do this better, maybe he won’t get upset”?

Ruby: During dating, no. He acted like the stable one and framed me as emotional or overly excited about things. He positioned himself as the grounding force in my life, someone steady.

Confusion Growing Before Ever Considering a Couples Therapist Near Me

Ruby: Looking back, he probably did things I couldn’t see, but he made it seem like he was strong and I was the one who needed correction. That dynamic made me less likely to question the confusion.

Anne: As the relationship progressed and you thought, “This is just his personality,” did you reach a point where you sought help? Did you consider counseling, clergy, or even looking up a couples therapist near me?

Ruby: Oh yes, absolutely. He’s adopted and has an adopted sibling, and he used that as an excuse to say counseling ruined him. He strongly insisted, “I don’t do counseling,” and blamed his parents for forcing him into it.

The First Attempts at Counseling and How They Failed

Ruby: I should have noticed the contradiction between how he presented himself as family-oriented and how he criticized his parents every day. He claimed I was “against them,” even though he constantly complained about them.

Our first counseling attempt went terribly. He resisted the idea from the start, and convincing him took a lot of energy. The couple leading the session didn’t have the skills to guide us.

They asked us to take compatibility tests, and I thought, “We’re already married. Why does that matter now?” Then they focused on our sex life, which felt intrusive and irrelevant. We ended up stopping because it helped nothing.

Many women don’t realize marriage counseling can actually worsen things, even before they search for a couples therapist near me. An abusive partner can twist counseling into another weapon.

He Finally Agreed to Counseling — And Used It Against Her

Ruby: When he finally agreed to counseling, he loved it because he controlled the narrative. He pretended to want help, but he shut down every real issue I raised. When I tried to talk about his behavior toward our son, he became angry and defensive.

When you go into counseling with someone who mistreats you, the counselor often assumes you’re dealing with ordinary “marriage problems.” They focus on communication or stress instead of harmful behavior. Their assumptions end up protecting him.

Anne: Exactly. They think you’re not communicating well or not having enough sex or that he needs anger management. They misidentify the entire issue right from the start, and once they do, the help becomes harmful.

Misdiagnosis and the Limits of a Couples Therapist Near Me

Anne: In my case, people assumed pornography addiction caused all the problems. That might have been part of it, but it wasn’t the thing destroying my marriage. Most therapists don’t recognize abuse even when you describe it clearly.

The average therapist misses the pattern, and even when they see pieces of it, they often don’t know how to respond. They default to generic couples therapy tools and say, “Let’s explore your childhoods” or “Let’s work on communication,” while the real issue continues unchecked.

You don’t know what’s actually happening, and the professionals you seek also don’t know. This happens constantly when a woman’s husband controls the narrative in therapy.

Ruby: Yes, exactly. They need to ask better questions.

Anne: That’s why I put together Clarity After Betrayal. So women could know what to expect before they schedule with a couples therapist near me. The workshop includes what more than 200 women told me they wish they had known. It’s only $27 and gives answers years faster (and much cheaper) than couples therapy.

Religious Messaging Made Ruby Think Couples Therapy Would Help

Ruby: I heard my mom say many times, “I made my commitment under God, to God, in my marriage, no matter what your dad does.” That belief created such heavy bondage for her, and it breaks my heart when I think about it now.

Anne: When I first started podcasting, I felt scared and confused and fought to keep my vows at all costs. I prayed, fasted, and hoped things would change because I didn’t want to disappoint God.

Now I feel the opposite because I believe God wants women to separate from evil and harm. Many women say God nudged them years earlier, but clergy gave them poor advice that kept them trapped. I hear that pattern again and again.

Here’s an example of emotional abuse if that helps.

When Ruby Realized Couples Therapy Wasn’t Helping

Ruby: I remember driving home and dreading walking through my own door. I took the kids everywhere because being alone with him created constant anxiety. Even errands felt safer.

Around that time, we also got a puppy, and the responsibility overwhelmed me. I kept praying for direction because nothing made sense, and I felt exhausted trying to hold everything together.

Then he left on his own. He packed his car two days before Father’s Day and didn’t try to hide it. I begged him to wait because the kids had made him gifts.

He looked at me and said, “I don’t need any more meaningless crap,” and drove away. At the end of that month, God spoke to me clearly and said, “Enough. You’re done. Let him go.”

Something inside me shifted immediately. It felt like God lifted him out of my heart. I finally felt space to breathe.

In the beginning, everything felt raw, and I couldn’t see beyond that moment. I had just started seeing the truth of what I lived through. I didn’t yet realize how much clarity would come later—long before a couples therapist near me could have helped.

For Women Who Feel Guilty About Couples Therapy Making Things Worse

Ruby: For any woman who feels condemnation, I want her to know this: you didn’t break your vow. Your husband’s choices broke the marriage. You still have value, dignity, and worth.

You’re not damaged goods in God’s eyes. You never were. I speak out to help women stop blaming themselves for harm they didn’t cause.

You’re not breaking up your family. His choices already did that. Pretending everything was fine only deepened the damage. Staying silent gave him protection, not me.

As he grew more volatile and irrational, I grew more afraid of doing the wrong thing. He trained me to manage his world so he didn’t have to regulate himself. I handled the home, the kids, and every detail.

Because I carried that load, he told others I acted controlling. That projection confused me for years. No couples therapist near me could have revealed those dynamics without seeing the truth behind closed doors.

The Social Backlash When Couples Therapy Fails

Ruby: I think many of us fear that people won’t understand and will condemn us for doing the right thing. A friend of mine was labeled a “husband basher” simply for describing her reality. Their mutual friends didn’t want that truth.

I knew she wasn’t bashing him. She was finally naming what harmed her. But when others feel invested in maintaining a certain image of him, they reject anything that disrupts their version of the story. They want to believe you just didn’t complete the therapist’s assignments.

Anne: Or they simply don’t believe you. They believe the man who lies and manipulates because it’s easier. It happens far too often and leaves women feeling isolated. This is so common when you are dealing with your abusive husband’s therapist.

Healing Without a Couples Therapist Near Me

Writing became a meaningful part of your healing process. It let you express your pain. Even though we aren’t sharing your writing today, I know it helped you see truths you couldn’t say out loud yet.

Ruby: It really did. Writing helped me turn pain into something I could see and understand. For years I felt split because I tried to serve two masters and live two different lives.

I tried to serve God while staying united with someone who wasn’t walking toward God at all. Nothing he did aligned with God. That realization revealed how much confusion I carried.

https://youtube.com/shorts/eTzRfKboinw

When separation happened, something settled inside me. For the first time in years, I felt aligned with God again. A couples therapist near me couldn’t have created that shift because it required honesty, not mediation.

How Women Can Get Education Before Trying Couples Therapy

Ruby: Women should ask themselves: Are you living with constant turmoil? Do you feel torn between serving God and staying united with your husband? That inner conflict signals something deeper.

The clarity journey is long and exhausting, but essential. Building community supports you through the confusion. Strong community helps you stay grounded when things feel heavy.

Anne: Thank you so much. Your story and courage will help so many women who feel alone. Your willingness to share matters.

Ruby: Thank you for having me. It has been my privilege.

Hope for Women Moving Forward

Ruby: The only thing I want women to know is this: don’t assume this is the end. Your life isn’t over, even if it feels that way.

Anne: It’s true. Beautiful and meaningful things still lie ahead, even when the path feels difficult.

Ruby: Thank you. And thank you for giving women a place to find real answers before spending years in couples therapy.

It’s super common for an emotional abuser to lie about his ex, but did you know that tradition is centuries old? If you’re wondering, “Why does my ex lie about what happened?” Here’s a bit of history you absolutely need to know.

Why does my ex lie about what happened? Labeling a woman as crazy is a powerful tool that men have had in their arsenal for centuries.

And it’s a little confusing: when a woman is clearly sane and healthy, why in the world would someone lie and say she’s crazy, unstable, and even dangerous?

This is a form of emotional abuse. To discover if you’re experiencing any of the 19 types of emotional abuse, take this free emotional abuse quiz.

This is WHY Your Ex Lies About You

Rather than own up to his lies, some abusive men convince those in power that the victim is crazy. It isn’t hard to convince others that women are crazy. The odds are stacked against us.

Kate Moore, best selling author talks about why abusive men lie about their ex’s.

Transcript: Why Does My Ex Lie About What Happened?

Anne: Kate Moore is the New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of the Radium Girls. It is a winner of the 2017 Goodreads Choice Award for Best History. And voted U. S. Librarian’s Favorite Nonfiction Book of 2017. And named the Notable Nonfiction Book of 2018 by the American Library Association.

A British writer based in London, Kate writes across various genres and has had multiple titles on the Sunday Times bestseller list. Her latest book is The Woman They Could Not Silence. Welcome, Kate.

Kate: Thank you so much for having me.

Anne: It is such an honor to have you. Thank you so much for all your hard work, like bringing these issues to light for women all over the world. It’s really important, and I appreciate your work.

Kate: It’s my honor to do it. And I have to thank you for the work you do. You do so much. What you’re doing is helping people. Having worked with survivors of domestic violence and abusive relationships, I know how important it is to have that support network. So thank you for inspiring people and supporting them through these difficult times.

Anne: It’s an all hands on deck effort to stop abuse. And help women asking the question, Why does my ex lie about what happened?

Kate: It needs to be across the size, you know, so you’re doing an awesome job. So thank you.

Synopsis Of The Woman They Could Not Silence

Anne: For those in our audience who may not be familiar with your book, without revealing too much, can you please provide us with a synopsis of your book, The Woman They Could Not Silence?

Kate: It is my honor to introduce your listeners to The Woman They Could Not Silence. Her name is Elizabeth Packard. It’s not surprising if none of your listeners have heard her name before. Because as often happens to feisty women who stand up for themselves. History has chosen to commemorate instead those men who tried but failed to silence her. And Elizabeth’s story and voice have been lost in time.

Her story starts on the cusp of the American Civil War in June 1860. It starts with Elizabeth, a 43 year old housewife and mother of six, lying in bed in her marital home. It starts with a simple question. What would happen if your husband could commit you to an insane asylum just because you disagreed with him?

Anne: You know, that question is strangely relevant today. Why does my ex lie about what happened? Not that men commit their abuse victims to an insane asylum. But they are committing them metaphorically to other people, thinking they’re crazy. So this concept is relevant today to abuse victims.

Anne: How did you come across Elizabeth’s story?

Kate: How I came across Elizabeth’s story is a little bit topsy turvy. Because I decided what I wanted to write about first, before I even knew her name. So I wrote The Woman They Could Not Silence because of the Me Too movement. And you probably remember how incredible that fall was, when everywhere women were speaking up against abuse and harassment.

The Silencing Of Women Through History

Kate: Crucially, people listened and believed us. And that got me thinking, well why has it taken so long, because it’s not like the fall of 2017 was the first time. That people had spoken out about these things. People took us seriously for the first time.

I thought that for centuries, whenever women used our voices, we are called crazy. That is something that resonates with your audience so much. Because gaslighting and calling you mad is going on in relationships every single day.

It happens also, I think, on a sort of political stage, you only have to look at Nancy Pelosi or any sort of public female political figures. She is called crazy because she speaks up and uses her voice. I decided to write about the way women are silenced through our mental health.

I searched for a woman to whom that had happened, and found Elizabeth’s story. Elizabeth’s story is amazing, not only because she survives this experience. Her husband dispatches her to an asylum. Even though she’s sane. What’s incredible about it is that through that crucible of suffering, she actually becomes the woman they could not silence.

She finds her voice, and she uses it to change the world.

Anne: I’m getting chills. Like, seriously. This is one of the ways abusers gaslight women.

Kate: She is a seriously impressive person. I think for me, she is the most inspiring and resilient woman I’ve ever encountered. Because everyone told her she was mad. Her husband, her doctor, her community. But Elizabeth knew she was not. Her husband lied about her.

Why Does My Ex Lie About What Happened: Elizabeth’s Famous Quote

Kate: A famous quote of hers is, “I, though a woman, have just as good a right to my opinion as my husband has.” But just because she believed that. Because she asserted herself, and what she believed in. In terms of the science of the age, it was enough to have her sent away to an insane asylum.

Anne: That is just, I don’t know, I’m feeling a lot of emotion right now. Not just for her, but all the women, throughout time. Who we stand on their shoulders, right? Like for Elizabeth, like the work she did, just for standing up for herself. She stood up for all of us. All of us who ask the question, why does my husband lie about small things, and big things.

Kate: Yes, completely. I think she is. Even though she herself was exceptional, I think she is also an everywoman. I think she saw herself in that way. She meets the other women in the asylum to whom the same thing happened. Husbands and fathers sent them away. You know, these are women who simply have defied domestic control. They’re causing too much trouble. They’re just themselves, frankly, and that’s enough to get them dispatched.

She meets these women, and she calls them sisters. And what’s remarkable about Elizabeth is that she could have saved herself countless times in her story. She could have got out early, she could have done enough to help her own situation.

https://youtube.com/shorts/KrRxSCGxPys

Then he determined that, you know, she wasn’t going anywhere. She was here to make a difference, and she was going to take every single woman with her as she fights for freedom and independence. And that fight continues even outside the brick walls of an insane asylum.

Elizabeth’s Fight For Freedom Relates To Modern Abuse Victims

Kate: She becomes a political force, and she has made the world better for all of us. Not just the sisters she personally met, but for every sister in America, every sister across the world. Elizabeth spearheaded a campaign to make things better for us all.

Anne: This book, which I’m sure now everyone is like, how do I get my hands on it? You can go to our books page. We have a curated list of all the books we recommend there, it is on that list. Our links take you straight to Amazon. So I’m sure you can find it on Amazon.

Our community consists of women surviving narcissistic abuse in their relationships. People call them crazy and all kinds of things. Like gold diggers sometimes, or that they want to ruin their families, or crazy stuff that is not at all true, and particularly they suffer from emotional, psychological, and spiritual abuse.

Most innocent bystanders, they do not see an abusive man calling her crazy as abuse. They just perceive it as, “His side of the story.” So, in terms of Elizabeth’s experience, how might they relate with Elizabeth in this way?

Kate: I think Elizabeth’s story will resonate so much. And I actually want to share a quote with you from Elizabeth herself, because I think she grasped exactly that situation that you’re describing.

Elizabeth’s Anticipation Of Modern Laws

Kate: I think she almost anticipated some of the laws that we’re finally seeing today in the UK. For example, there’s now a law about coercive control. Elizabeth wrote, and this is back in the 1860s.

She said, “When a woman is brought before our man courts and our man juries. And has no bruises, wounds, or marks of violence upon her person to show as a ground of her complaint. It is hard for them to realize that she has any reason to appeal to them for protection. While at the same time, her whole physical system may be writhing in agony from spirit wrongs.”

Elizabeth understood it wasn’t necessarily about physical abuse. A man trying to crush your spirit, a man trying to dismiss what you’re thinking and feeling. In itself, it is enough to make you writhe in agony. She appreciated that because this was an invisible abuse, most people didn’t credit it. They didn’t give it the time of day, the attention it deserved. And the protection that women deserved from these abusers. She was anticipating all of that in the 1860s.

Anne: Did Elizabeth ever go through a period where she wondered if she was crazy, where she thought, maybe it is me. Maybe I am crazy.

Kate: I think remarkably, she didn’t, actually. Her strength of spirit, that sort of confidence in herself and her self belief, is actually what gets her through everybody telling her the rest.

Why Does My Ex Lie About What Happened: Elizabeth’s Mental Strength

Kate: What I will say though is that she’s been shut up in an insane asylum. She’s moved to the worst wards. Because she calls out the doctor on his misogynist, abusive regime. So she’s moved from a pleasant ward to a ward, as they would describe it at the time, full of maniacs.

She is locked up with no promise of release. No hope of ever getting out or ever seeing her children again. And there are moments, she writes, where she comes near the precipice of madness. Not because she was mad originally, but simply because it’s so hard for anyone to endure that continued abuse. And endure that lack of hope without it affecting your mental health.

So she wobbled sometimes on her journey, but I think ultimately the faith in herself and in God is partly what gets her through. What I will say is that she does go on a journey. And something that resonated with me is what she talks about at the start of the book. Feeling small, feeling that nothing she said was worth saying or hearing. And I know I’ve been that woman.

To see Elizabeth grow from that position to someone who eventually becomes a political campaigner. Someone who takes on her husband, takes on her doctor, takes on the world, and to have confidence in herself and in her voice. That journey is so inspirational for me. And others as they wonder, why their ex is lying about what happened.

Empowering Victims To Help Others

Anne: That sounds so exciting. When victims think, I want to help other victims! Maybe be a therapist, or a coach. I want to encourage everyone to take a deep breath, and think about when you were 8 or 9, what did you want to be? Did you want to be an attorney? Did you want to be a florist? We don’t all have to be a therapist, to help victims. Like you could help victims as a florist, or as a horse trainer.

You can advocate for women in anything you do. There are people like Elizabeth, maybe like me or you, who have made our life mission to directly advocate. Through politics or a podcast or other ways. But I want victims to know that you don’t have to run for office, be a therapist or something to affect the world. The best way to make the world a more peaceful place is to get yourself to safety. No matter what your husband or ex is lying about.

Kate: Yeah, absolutely. I think that advice about trying to center again on who you are and what you’re passionate about is so important. Because I think often when people have been in those abusive relationships, the abuse wears them down. Their very person is called out so much, is questioned so much that you question yourself.

Actually, to try and re- center it on who you are and what’s important to you is a really important thing. And I think that’s something Elizabeth Packard experiences. She has to go back to basics. And experience of being locked up in that insane asylum for years. It forces her to confront who she is and what matters.

Elizabeth’s Transformation

Kate: Ultimately, she decides that this thing is not the worst thing that could happen. That this thing is actually the best thing that could happen to her. Because she says, “The worst my enemies can do, they have done, and I fear them no more. I am now free to be true and honest. No opposition can overcome me.”

It’s like she has to hit rock bottom, but from that she can then rise like a Phoenix. To become the woman she was always destined to be.

Anne: That is so inspiring. And I want to tell all our listeners that you have your own destiny and mission. You can rise from the ashes and live a life of peace. In Elizabeth’s case, it sounds like the most amazing journey and adventure she was on. Suffering the results of her husband’s lies.

Kate: Yes, yes, I think it was ultimate, and it’s one of those strange things, isn’t it? Had none of this horrific stuff ever happened to her. She would have continued in her home, being a homemaker, mother and wife. Because of these horrifying circumstances, it actually leads her to this completely different public life. Where she travels from coast to coast across America. Changing laws, minds and hearts as she goes. Inspiring women and inspiring men to help women.

And none of that would have happened had her husband not tried to silence her. So, good can come from the bad. I guess there is another chapter that comes after it. And it’s a chapter that you can write yourself and make yourself the heroine of that story. The heroine of whatever journey you’re going to go on.

Protecting Women from ex’s who lie: Elizabeth’s Legal Impact

Anne: I feel like that now in my own personal journey from recovering from abuse. I feel like my life has become this amazing adventure, and I feel immense gratitude for what I’ve been through. I also want to acknowledge that many of our listeners are in this place where they can’t even fathom sunlight again. There is just a tunnel with no light at the end of it. My ex lies about what happened still.

And it feels almost offensive. When people say, I’m so grateful because I’ve been there, or it’s like, why would I be grateful? So, to have examples like Elizabeth, especially from the 1800s, is so inspiring. You talked about the laws that Elizabeth had an influence over, and some of the work that she did here in America. For American women today, or women all over, do we have a direct benefit that we didn’t even realize we had from Elizabeth’s life work?

Kate: Definitely, she was born in Massachusetts. The story takes place in Illinois, because they move west at some point during their marriage. But, yeah, she was born and grew up in Massachusetts. I think many people don’t realize how unjust laws used to be for wives. Even today, we see that society has rules that mean women are on the back foot. And are not the people with power.

Coverture was a law. Which was inherited from England in the 1100s. It was in operation in America at the time Elizabeth was sent to the asylum.

The Legacy Of Coverture

Kate: Coverture meant wives had no legal identities. They were mere shadows of their spouses, legally. So they had no right to their own earnings. They had no right to the custody of their own children. They had no right even to their very liberty.

So her husband sending her away to the asylum was not just enabled by the medical science of the day that said assertive women were mad. The law of the land enabled it. Because the law said a husband could send his wife to an asylum by request, and specifically without the evidence of insanity required in other cases. Some of the laws that Elizabeth tackled and changed were to change that situation.

Safeguards were put in place so that the sane wives could not be sent away by their husbands. She also tackled matters such as a woman’s rights to her own earnings. Because as I said, many of your listeners will know that financial independence can give independence, full stop. If you’re financially tied to a man, it can seem almost impossible to break away. And so Elizabeth was tackling those injustices.

She wanted to make sure that women could not be sent away by their husbands. She wanted to ensure that women could stand on their own two feet, so that they could have the custody of their children.

Elizabeth suffered terribly when it came to caring for her six children. Because she was sent away to the asylum, she had no care of them for the years she was there. And then even when she came out and there was a landmark legal trial, which actually, spoiler alert, declared her sane. Her husband had lied about what happened.

Elizabeth’s Campaign For Change

Kate: Even then, she could still not care for her children. Her husband essentially kidnapped them. And took them to a different state. That was legal, because Elizabeth, as the wife, had no right to custody of her children. Some laws she also campaigned to change and did change were about the custody of children. Mothers were given custody, the same rights as men. They could actually be guardians for their own children.

Initially when she started campaigning, a wife, by law, could not become the guardian of her children. So these are the kind of laws she was tackling. We may think, oh, well, it was the 1800s, you know, that is a very different time then. Actually, my research showed that hangovers from these 19th century laws stretched way into present day and more recent history.

So for example, did you know that it wasn’t until 1974 that American women could get a credit card independently? Before then, a man had to co-sign any credit application.

Anne: What? Sorry, I just have to pause there and be like, what?

Kate: Yep.

Anne: I was born in 1977, so this is three years before I’m born. Thank goodness someone liberated us from that.

Kate: So I mean, I’ve given very specific concrete examples there, but that’s the kind of campaign Elizabeth embarked on. As you say, as well as the concrete laws, she changed in the law books. She is a shining example of an oppressed, abused, gaslit, woman. And told she was crazy.

When Husband’s Lie About What Happened: Stereotypes Of Abuse Victims

Kate: She’s a woman who managed, somehow, against all odds, to rise above that and fight for what she believed in. And to fight for her freedom and the freedom of others.

Anne: I wanted to talk about stereotypes. That abuse victims are like waify women who can’t speak up for themselves. Who have a hard time processing things. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we’ve seen that victims come in all shapes and sizes. All of our personalities are different. So many of us are strong and brave, and that’s how Elizabeth was. And I actually feel like women who are confident, self-assured, and honest can experience even more abuse.

But they don’t look like an abuse victim to people. Because they think, she tells everyone she’s abused. She tells people her husband had an affair. And goes to PTA meetings and runs for city council. How could she be abused? And I wonder if one of the reasons why Elizabeth is so horrifically abused, is because she was outspoken. And because she had this heart of justice. She wasn’t necessarily more abused than other women of her time. And their husbands and ex’s just continue to lie about them and what’s happening.

But I don’t want women to think like, oh, if I spoke up more or if I was a certain way, I wouldn’t get abused. Because in some cases, I think those of us who stick it to the man, if I’m gonna use that term. We almost get more vilified and more told that we’re bad or evil, or that we won’t stay in our lane. Would you say her strength was one of the things her husband found so threatening? And one of the reasons why he abused her so severely?

The Strength Of Outspoken Women

Kate: It definitely is why he abused her so severely. Absolutely. Her outspokenness actually was her downfall. That was why she was sent away. It might seem shocking to listeners today. But actually, psychiatry of the era declared outspoken and assertive women insane.

That was medical science at the time. Backed up the husband in saying that, this strong willed and this outspoken woman, well, she must be mad. That was what the medical textbooks of the era said. Women who have plenty of nerve were literally textbook examples of female insanity. Any educated or assertive woman is seen as liable to go mad. Even a woman who simply read.

I’ve found the records of the insane asylums of the era, and a cause of madness in that time was reading novels. So any woman who uses her brain and tongue is seen at risk of madness. And was liable to be sent away, just as Elizabeth was. Absolutely, her strength was the reason her husband wanted to dispatch her to the asylum.

Anne: Well, and this generational trauma that women feel makes me want to pause and point out that the abuse has worked. Like women say today, I’m not going to say that, because he’ll get angry. Or I can’t do that, because people won’t like me or they’re not going to think I’m okay.

The Societal Pressure To Conform

Anne: I prefer not to swear on this podcast, because I know so many victims have been sworn at. I don’t want to trigger anyone. I’m going to use the word witch, but you know what I’m saying. They call a woman these names. Like she’s such a witch. So other women are like, well, I don’t want to be perceived as this difficult, pushy, aggressive woman.

The overall layering of abuse over generations has these repercussions. Women think I can’t say what I think or do what I think is right. Because people will not perceive me as a nice person or cooperative. Women are worried their husbands will lie and they won’t be believed. I want to be perceived as kind and cooperative.

Kate: It’s so interesting to use the word cooperative there, because my research didn’t just look at the 1860s, but also into the 20th and 21st centuries. A line that stood out to me was from a patient in a mental hospital. She said, if you’re uncooperative, you’re crazy. That is experienced both in the 20th century and in Elizabeth’s world.

The only way they could get out from the asylum was to cooperate, paste on these smiles and simper sweetly. It wasn’t talking about the stuff that was making them angry or sad. They had to be these sort of cut-out dolls. And that line from this woman in the mental hospital in the 20th century, if you’re uncooperative, you’re crazy. That for me just sums up the whole situation. If you’re not towing the line. Whether that’s within a relationship or in society, then you’re crazy.

Why Does My Ex Lie About What Happened: Modern Parallels To Elizabeth’s Story

Kate: And as I say, I just think it’s so interesting you use the word cooperate. Because that was what’s coming up from people who had experienced these things. That’s how they summarize it.

Anne: That is real time happening now. I would say even with women who aren’t “abused” per se by their spouse. But maybe in the workplace or maybe in their church. Where they feel like I can’t be myself or say what I want to say. I have to say it in a certain way.

There are so many restraints. So that you’re not perceived as this difficult, witchy jerk. And the bar is so different for women than men. And nobody perceives that as throwing her under the bus, because she has a different opinion as abuse.

Kate: I’ve had readers contact me saying how haunting they found Elizabeth’s story, because similar things have happened to them. For example, someone calls the police because of a domestic violence incident. They don’t help the woman. They talk to her husband. And they say, “If she’s causing you trouble, we can make arrangements to have her taken away to the mental hospital.” This was from 2017. A reader emailed me about that situation.

I personally interviewed people from the 1980s, for example, where an abusive husband sent his wife to a mental institution, which is the definition of institutional abuse. for several months, his word against hers, and they believed him. Even though her husband was lying about what happened. She was sent away. We think of it as history, but actually just from those few anecdotes that I have encountered. Personally, I think these things are still happening.

Elizabeth’s Enduring Legacy

Anne: Gabby Petito is the most recent, widely publicized case. You’ve got a film of the police talking to her boyfriend, who is abusing her. The boyfriend is calm and collected. He says, “Oh, she’s just a little crazy,” essentially. And the police say, “Oh, yeah, we get that. Just separate for the night.” Then she ends up murdered.

Kate: Hysterical, that’s the other one, hysterical.

Anne: Oh yes, hysterical!

Kate: Which of course has its roots in hysteria, hysterectomy. It’s all tied together etymologically, linking women and madness.

Anne: It is maddening. That men have been lying about women forever.

Kate: It was my draft title for the book, actually, Maddening, because the situation is maddening for Elizabeth. But as I say, what’s inspiring about her is the way she manages to rise above it and fight back. And, you know, talking about what we were just talking about, I want to share with your listeners another quote from Elizabeth.

She herself was a brilliant writer. She kept this secret journal in the asylum, which I’ve been able to draw on for writing The Woman They Could Not Silence. And she has become The Woman They Could Not Silence, because we hear her words through the years. And Elizabeth said, “Women are made to fly and soar, not to creep and crawl as the haters of our sex want us to.” And I think, as you say, we sometimes try to switch ourselves into boxes.

But if we can, we need to gather ourselves and fly and soar, as Elizabeth Packard managed to do. I hope people will find her story inspirational.

They Say We’re Crazy, Because it Keeps Them in Power

Anne: We’ve talked about how her experience is relevant today. Many women are experiencing their husband’s and ex’s lying about what’s happening. It’s been going on for a very long time. A century and a half later, let’s pretend like Elizabeth shows up. She can see what’s going on now. Like if she could give us some kind of motivational speech, or if she could point out something that maybe we’re not even aware of. What do you think she would say to us?

Kate: I think she’d be disappointed that things haven’t changed enough from her time. I think she writes about wanting a female president and things like that. We’re still not there yet in terms of society being more equal. But what I think she would actually do is straighten her shoulders. I think she’d pick up her skirts and go into battle. She’d go into battle for all of us. She was that kind of person. A review in Australia actually described her as a battering ram in a bonnet.

And that was Elizabeth Packard. So I don’t know exactly what direct advice she would have. And in fact, Elizabeth was actually the kind of person who wouldn’t impart advice. She would lead by example.

She would go into battle for us, I think. I think she would choose whichever battle she thought was the most relevant. She would dedicate herself to make sure wrongs are overturned and justice is done for everyone. That’s who she was.

Anne: What you said makes me feel good. My nickname in high school was the battle axe.

Kate: I love it.

Anne: And I loved it. I found it to be very endearing, and I want other women to feel that same way.

He Lies & Says I’m Crazy To Silence Me

Anne: If someone says you’re too stubborn, instead of being like, no, I’m not, let me get back in my box. Be like, of course I am. I’m stubborn for truth. I’m stubborn for justice. Just like Elizabeth did. You don’t have to back away from that. Like, I’m crazy because this is an insane situation. And anyone in this situation might be crazy because it’s insane and it’s not right.

Kate: Yeah, exactly. And that brings to mind, you know, some of the stuff said to Elizabeth. She eventually hated her husband for putting her in the asylum. This is cited as evidence of her madness. Because a wife is supposed to be loving and caring.

She is angry with her husband. And that is cited as evidence of her madness. Because a natural wife, a healthy well wife, wouldn’t behave in that way. As you say, how do you respond to that? You know, anger inspiring insane situation, but these are the kind of things Elizabeth was up against.

I just want to thank you for this opportunity. I’m such an advocate for Elizabeth Packard’s story. I think any of your listeners who read her story will be shocked by what happens to her. Medical science, the law, and everything are stacked against her. But the inspiration of how she defies the odds, the inspiration of how she finds herself in the midst of this darkness and this oppression. I hope that shines a light for everybody.

A Final Quote From Elizabeth

Kate: I just want to finish by sharing with you another quotation from Elizabeth. She said, “I will not hide my light under a bushel. I will set it upon a candlestick that it may give light to others.” And I hope anyone who reads her story in The Woman They Could Not Silence, I hope it lights your life.

Anne: Kate, thank you so much for your work. And helping us understand why it’s worked for men to lie about women. Again, you can find her book on our books page. Or you can find it on Amazon.

Thank you again, Kate, for all your hard work on behalf of women everywhere.

Kate: It’s my pleasure. Thank you for this opportunity.

Women often ask, “how do you live with a husband you don’t trust?”

If you’ve discovered something about your husband that made you question if you could live with him, he’s likely using at least one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse. To find out, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

Did His Manipulation and Lies Break Your Trust?

Most women who can’t trust their husband discover he’s been manipulating, gaslighting, and lying. It’s important for emotionally abusive men to protect their secret behaviors and maintain the privileges they receive from being “good guys”.

Manipulation, gaslighting, and lying may follow, it can look like:

• Flat-out denial of the pornography use, whether there is evidence or not (in cases where there is evidence, he might say, “I have no idea how that got on my phone, it must have been the kids/my brother/a co-worker)
• Blaming the victim (if you would ____, I wouldn’t have to use it)
• Minimization (I downloaded it but I didn’t look at it; I texted her but never had met with her)
• Blame-shifting: “Why are you checking my phone in the first place?”
• Partial truths: “I was just studying for a test and it popped up – I did look at it, but I wasn’t searching for it”
• Gaslighting with questions like, “Do you really think so low of me?” “How could you accuse me of something like that?”

When You Find Out You Can’t Trust Him, It’s Usually The Tip of The Iceberg

Women who can’t trust their husband almost always discover he’s participating in some type of destructive behavior, like…

• Coercion
• Emotional affairs
• Solicitation of prostitutes
• Consensual affairs
• Marital Non-Consentual Touch
• Marital Assault
• Voyeurism
• Eploitation of a spouse

If you relate and need support, check out our Online Daily Group Session Schedule.

Transcript: How to Live with a Husband You Don’t Trust

Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. Her name is Cristy. She’s going to talk about when she discovered something that made her wonder if she could ever trust her husband again.

Cristy: Thank you.

Anne: Just like so many members of our community, you went through. Years and years of pain, but you didn’t understand what was happening.

Cristy: No, I did not. We both went to a Christian college that’s where we met and we talked through our values. after we graduated, we got married.

Our first year of marriage, I knew something was wrong and couldn’t pinpoint it. I asked him and he lied he yelled a lot I even at one point had found myself in the car for hours, not knowing where else to go. I knew something was wrong.

Discovering I Couldn’t Trust My Husband

Cristy: Then I found it on my husbands phone. He said he had looked at it and I firmly said well, I’d like to go to counseling together about this. It’s very hurtful towards me I don’t think this is something good. You know, I want to be there for you and be enough for you like, this isn’t good for either one of us.

Cristy: So we went to counseling together, he treated it as an isolated incident. He didn’t yell at me anymore, he was very regretful, remorseful, could see how it hurt me, never wanted to do that again. Now I know he lied, but I didn’t know at the time.

Anne: It’s really interesting that you say that, because what I see there is that he became better at manipulating you.

Cristy: Yes, I know that now. Yeah.

Anne: It was less obvious because he wasn’t yelling at you anymore, but he was still lying to you, manipulating you, and hiding the truth from you. So really, he just got better at psychological abuse as a result of couple therapy. Even your husband’s therapist won’t know this. It’s so hard for us to understand. It was hard for me to understand.

The things that I viewed as good, like once he started going to therapy, he didn’t yell as much. Sometimes he acted nicer. But I didn’t get that it was coming from a place of manipulation, so it wasn’t like he was good and then he was bad. He was always bad. But then the bad felt good sometimes because of the grooming. So he’s grooming you.

Secret Alcohol Use

Anne: But things still don’t feel right. What do you do at that point?

Cristy: I’m like, Oh, are you still looking at it? He said he had people he felt comfortable talking to about that and I said, okay, are you talking to them? You know, I just try trusting him and then life got busy. I pushed it to the back of my brain like, this isn’t going on. I think he got a smartphone. It was happening. but I couldn’t see it and didn’t know it was going on.

Anne: In the meantime, I’m guessing your husband’s gaslighting and manipulation and the lying was still occurring.

Cristy: It was. We fast forward a couple of years and now I see lying in other sins. So in our basement, like hidden away, I found a vodka bottle. So now I know he’s hiding and lying about drinking liquor alone.

And I expressed that concern. I don’t think it’s healthy for either one of us to drink alone and can we come to that agreement? He agreed to that, but later on continued that as well. I knew when I found evidence that those were lies, but until hearing The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, I didn’t realize how much it was emotional abuse.

He knew what he was doing the whole time. But until I heard The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast this pattern continued.

Surprise Pregnancy

Cristy: I was on birth control. I take it like religiously same time every day. It had worked for years and it did not. We were having a surprise baby and he made comments like, now I’m going to have another child. I’m going to screw up and he’s going to end up in counseling because of me.

I’m never going to have freedom ever again. When I had to tell him that was pregnant, that’s when I first started seeing him spiral.

I was four weeks postpartum, and he comes home like shaking, having anxiety attacks. This is when I started like, okay, I’ll give him space. What do I need to do to love him more? Do all the things in the house.

I’m, I stay at home mom, so I’m taking care of a four year old, a two year old, three month old, doing all the things I can, and nothing seems to be working.

I went to see my parents for the weekend. Like, you rest up, do everything you can, and I’m going to come back. When I came back, I realized even that wasn’t going to help him.

He was blaming it on the baby, like I’m depressed. The drinking and the lying about that increased, so I was noticing all this and for months I worked really hard and realized I wasn’t helping him. I said I’m going go to counseling then because I don’t know how to be the best mom, the best wife, and caretaker for everybody and he was like, okay.

Go ahead. So I did. And it was frustrating because, of course, I wanted him to go or for us to go together. But he didn’t want to.

A Sign Of A Bigger Problem

Cristy: So about a year ago I saw him texting heart emojis on his phone late one night, and I approached him about that. When I did, he deleted it, denied anything was going on.

He gave me the code to his phone, saying I’ve got nothing to hide. Even Christmas morning, I was still processing it, crying on the floor. He was in the room with the kids, playing with all the toys. I was sad thinking about having to share my kids with him and another woman and later on I told him and he denied it and said, you’ve got nothing to worry about.

He said, “I love you. I want you. I want this family and there’s nothing I do to put that in jeopardy.”

And I was like, “Okay.” I had the code to his phone and he would drink at night and it interacted with his antidepressant medicine.

I would see just his eyes get so heavy and he’d get knocked out like that. I even tried to wake him up one time to talk to him and he was incoherent. Then I would get his phone. There was a text message from a coworker three years ago when they were on a work trip and it was like, come on back at 12:15 AM or, you’ll have to carry me back to my hotel room at 3 AM.

When I Discovered His Affair

I showed him, I was like, “What is this? It looks like you’ve been with another woman and you’re texting her and we’re in the hospital with our newborn, or you’re texting about birthday presents.”

He said, “You know, no, you’ve got nothing to worry about.” And I he denied anything happened.

Regardless, this is an inappropriate emotional relationship. He said he didn’t agree, but would respect me enough to stop. And then as he was walking out the door, he had an anxiety attack on the steps that night too. I was like, is this my life now?

Anne: A carefully contrived anxiety attack perhaps. I’m of the opinion it was a contrived anxiety attack to control you and manipulate you into feeling sorry for him.

Cristy: Yeah, so these were all little things. Again, I was finding him drinking throughout the day and denying that and he would say this is the only thing I can control.

We stopped having it. We would try and he physically could not. I was starting to think, oh, something’s wrong with me or you’re cheating on me. He’d say, no, I love you. I’d never do that to you.

I picked up his phone and it’s a different phone than mine. So I had to work hard, but I found a, like on the computer, there’s like a downloads file. I found even more.

When I Looked Deeper I Found Out He’d Been Soliciting

Cristy: I guess your phone saves what you download to you, even if you transfer phones. I found an STD test result from three years ago, and then also like a menu of, I still don’t know if it was like an affair, but pictures and pricing, uh, with a woman.

I said, what is this? What are you doing? I didn’t know at the time, but he fed me another lie of, I was on a work trip. I met a woman, we didn’t have intercourse. And I said, we might as well have, if you felt like you had to go get an STD test. He said, well, you’re not perfect either. And I was like, Oh, I never said I was.

And I, you know, I’ve held up every one of our marriage vows. The next day was our daughter’s first birthday and he had to stay in the house. Like I couldn’t wake up the next day and he not be there for this daughter’s birthday for some reason. So he stayed in the house for about five to seven days.

So I continued to see my counselor and when everything went down, I said, I need to see you every week. She said, but I’m not trained in this. She’s really into the Enneagram, which has helped me too.

When I Couldn’t Trust Him, Betrayal Trauma Recovery Helped Me Figure Out What To Do Next

I just started Googling betrayal trauma groups, recovery, I came across The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast and I’m a big runner. When I run a lot on the treadmill while the kids are still asleep, but I just listened and it just opened my eyes hearing other people’s stories similar to mine. I think there was one in particular and I wrote this down cause it spoke to me.

She said, “I had to work hard”. It was on me all the time, because everything was falling apart because of me. She did her best to please her husband and be the best she could be, but it was never enough. And she gave and gave and gave and all he did was take. I remember I sent that one to my mom, and I said, this was my story too.

Then I started to reduce time with my counselor from once a week so I could add in the funds to go to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group. I can go while the kids are asleep, it’s a safe place.

Anne: Once you started listening to the podcast, were you surprised that you had been abused for so long and that you didn’t know?

Cristy: Yes. I think on The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Instagram had the picture of alcoholics abuse alcohol. Drug addicts abuse drugs and addicts abuse people.

He admitted it to later on saying, I took advantage of you. I knew what I was doing the whole time. I would have never told you. Things would have gotten worse. Hearing that and hearing from the podcast, how it’s so oftentimes we say like, oh, bad. I’m sorry.

There Were So Many Reasons Not To Trust Him

I did it. It’s okay. Like just don’t do it again. It’s not that scenario. It’s no, he admitted I wanted to live two separate lives. I knew what I was doing the whole time, and that just opened my eyes like he did this anyways, like he risked me our marriage, our kids, and he said yeah, why did you let your addiction ruin our family?

All he could say was like, I’m sorry. I’ve told him, I’ve looked him in the eyes and said, I could never trust you again because of the way you’ve emotionally abused me. You looked me straight in the eyes for years when I said, Are you cheating on me? Are you doing this? No, I love you. I’d never do that to you.

Trust me. I want you. I want our family. And he was doing that just so I wouldn’t continue down the detective mode rabbit hole trying to figure out what was going on and wasn’t getting any answers. After I just looked at him and I knew we couldn’t keep doing this.

Cristy: He had kept the finances from me, our whole marriage. He would like screenshot the statement that would answer my question. I would be like, no, can I have the logins. He was like, oh yeah, yeah. But never would give them to me because he knew there was evidence there.

Finally I was pushing, I need every login, I need to see exactly what’s being spent where? He had called me after binge drinking for a little bit.

He Had So Many Secrets

Cristy: He said, I have more to tell you.

I have paid for services. I’ve been with at least four prostituted women. When you saw me text messaging over Christmas, I was inappropriately texting somebody. I was like, okay, I’m done. Like, do you have anything else to tell me? He said, no. It took me another week. I got into the finances. Actually, my dad was patient and gracious with me to sit down because I was so scared.

Finally put it all together. So the first prostitute was in 2017 when you’re on a work trip here. You paid for with cash you got here. I had to get the whole picture.

Anne: Yeah, that’s something that we talk about in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop quite a bit is make sure you have access to the finances. So I’m really glad you got access to the finances and that you could start putting the pieces of the puzzle together and see reality.

Anne: You mentioned that you attended Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions can you talk about your experience?

Cristy: From the coaches in the other women somebody said this is not a club. Anybody wants to be a part of, but I’m thankful for it. I’m in my young thirties with three small kids and then. I’ve seen a woman in her 70s and 80s been married and has grandkids, and she’s walking the same path I am.

Finding Support From Betrayal Trauma Recovery

The coaches hear all the stories, right? We have this common thread of addiction. It could also be infidelity, in my case, prostitution. But, they’re also different. So we each get a chance to share that, to get feedback from the other women and coaches. For me personally, just processing it all, what’s it like to move forward?

Anne: As victims, once you get the appropriate glasses on and look at this through the lens of abuse, rather than he needs help or has anxiety problems. You reframe everything that happened in the past with the new glasses that make everything so clear.

Cristy: When he would feed me this lie of like, I’ll go to counseling with you but he knew the whole time what he was doing and he was never going to say anything. When I found out I couldn’t trust him, that was a lot to take in.

Now I have those glasses on, like you said, I would replay as much as I could remember of our whole marriage and trying to figure out what was lies or manipulation and what wasn’t. At this point, one of the coaches made a good point of like, do you know what you already need to know now?

When You Can’t Trust Your Husband, You Can Trust Yourself

There’s no need for all that, like replaying or digging. You know, I can’t even see his device anymore, but I think I’ve seen and heard enough that I can make my decisions now and moving forward. That’s the hardest piece trusting your gut, which sometimes I would. My problem was I didn’t have the evidence until I found what I found.

Just trusting yourself. If something’s not right, right. Had I said any of those things to him, he would have lied. He would have never admitted had I not had point blank evidence. Cause he lied. When we were in counseling together, but trust yourself, trust your gut, get safety.

Cristy: I don’t think I realized what that meant as far as like emotional safety until he’s been gone and I realized I don’t have to tiptoe around my house.

I don’t have to be detective I can create a safe and healthy space for me and my girls. We’re going be honest with each other and treat each other with respect. This is what it means for you to have boundaries even as a three and five year old With your emotions and with your body, too.

Anne: Well, I’m so grateful that you found us and that you’re part of our community and thank you so much for sharing your story today

Cristy: Thank you.

Anne: I appreciate Cristy’s courage to share her story on today’s episode. If you’d like to share your story, I would be honored to hear it. Please message podcast@btr.org to set up an interview with my assistant. We all grow stronger and have epiphanies as we work together to truly understand this.

The nature of psychological and emotional abuse leaves many victims unsure, asking how do I know if it’s abuse?

To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take this free emotional abuse quiz.

Lorelai, a member of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery community, joins Anne on the free BTR podcast to share her powerful story of escaping her husband’s sexual abuse, constant manipulation and gaslighting. Through the fog of abuse, she was able to use empowering tools to identify the abuse and set safety boundaries to begin her journey to healing.

How Do I Know If It’s Abuse: It Doesn’t Have To Be Physical Battering To Qualify As Abuse

Often, victims question the reality of their abusive relationship because they haven’t been punched in the face or put in the hospital. Physical battering is absolutely abuse – but it isn’t the only kind of abuse.

Other forms of abuse include:

• Gaslighting
• Manipulation
• Betrayal (including secret pornography use)
• Sexual coercion
• Marital rape
• Covert physical harm
• Threats
• Financial domineering
• Spiritual domineering

How Can I Learn More About Abuse?

Victims become empowered to identify the abuse and create healthy boundaries in marriage as they become educated about abuse. Some of the most helpful resources we recommend include:

• Anne Blythe’s books about betrayal trauma
• Listen to The FREE betrayal trauma podcast

Visit our books page for a list of curated books that we recommend to victims.

How Do I Know If It’s Abuse: If You’re Here, Trust Yourself

Victims of psychological abuse often experience so much gaslighting, that discerning reality can feel nearly impossible. If you are here, we encourage you to trust yourself. Seek support, empowerment, and education, but trust your instincts. If you feel abused, you probably are. Take appropriate steps to protect yourself, and set safety boundaries to separate yourself from abusive behavior.

Join our online betrayal trauma support group is here for you as you begin your healing journey. Join today.

Transcript: How Do I Know If It’s Abuse?

Anne: Lorelai, a member of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery community, is on today’s episode. Welcome Lorelai.

Lorelai: Thank you for having me.

Anne: We’re so glad you’re here and grateful that you’re willing to share. Let’s start at the beginning. Did you recognize your husband’s behavior as abusive at first?

Lorelai: No, absolutely not. I had been in a previously abusive relationship, and that one was obvious. And then I met my husband, and he seemed like a gift from God. We’ve been for 17 years now. I did not realize it was abusive until a couple of years ago. And honestly, I didn’t realize the extent or scope of it. There was a lot of confusion. My husband is very subtle about it. It was really hard for me to catch.

I started following Betrayal Trauma Recovery regularly and like, overnight I was like, Oh, that explains everything.

Anne: When I was first married, I had a friend in a really abusive relationship. When I say really abusive, I would say mine was really abusive. I just didn’t know it, I didn’t understand psychological abuse and emotional abuse. Hers was physical. It was obvious. He was throwing things around. When I would tell her what was going on. She’d be like, Oh no, mine was way worse than that. Yours is a good guy.

What I went through was confusing because of all the psychological abuse. What did you attribute it to in the beginning, anger issues? What did you think was going on when you didn’t understand it was abuse?

Attributing Behavior To Circumstances

Lorelai: A good family raised my husband. He’s the youngest of five. He has strong family connections, but his family was a little weird. He got a lot of passes on many things, being the youngest of five. I attributed it to his family’s ongoing issues. And I attributed it to the blending of two families, because I have kids from my first relationship. People say marriage is hard work. I attributed it to the stress of working two jobs and being a police officer, and thought it was all circumstantial, like oh, he’s in a bad mood or he’s tired.

I didn’t think it was calculated and deliberate until Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Then I pinpointed exactly where it was calculated and deliberate. It shocked me. I was shocked at how calculated and deliberate it was.

Anne: It is shocking. Your whole paradigm of how you see your husband crumbles when you realize, wait a minute. I’ve been seeing him as a good guy who gets frustrated every once in a while. I realized he’s an abusive man. The mask comes off.

https://youtube.com/shorts/g4KuN5j4dpk

Lorelai: Yeah, for my husband, he puts out this persona of this great family guy. But when I looked closely, what I could see was him controlling every aspect of me. So how do I know if it’s abuse? It had nothing to do with the kids, his family, or my family. He was putting one image on everything, but I could pinpoint all our fights down to his inability to control me.

I’m a little bit of a fighter. I’m not just going to take it. So I was good at calling him on his crap. I was good at protecting my kids and trying to keep the peace.

Assertive Communication Myth

Lorelai: The harder I fought for what I knew was right, because I knew it was right. The more kickback I got, but only after Betrayal Trauma Recovery did I see that he was trying to control me the whole time. So that was eye-opening.

Anne: I am a fighter too. And I want to educate women about the myth of assertive communication. Because many women say to me, had I fought and had I called him out, maybe he wouldn’t have been that way. This is a big step in recovering from betrayal trauma. Your experience and my experience are no, we fought him every step of the way. And we still got abused and manipulated.

Lorelai: Absolutely, absolutely.

Anne: Were you aware of any exploitative materials use or any infidelity in your relationship?

Lorelai: My husband is a very private person. Being a police officer, he has his own computer and his phone is on lockdown. He actually works in a different state from where I live, because our youngest child has a significant disability. So he goes to school in a different area than where my husband works. And he’s been kind of bouncing back and forth between the two states. So we only saw him once or twice a week, really for the last five or six years.

So there wouldn’t have been any way for me to know, but he confessed to me at some point. And now looking back, I realized it was a manipulation. So it may or may not be true.

Identifying Abuse: Infidelity & Wifely Duties

Lorelai: But he told me that he had been emotionally involved with several, multiple, like more than five women at work. He said he just got caught up emotionally with them. He said nothing physical happened, but that he had spent a lot of time talking to them and sharing with them. He’d be like, I may have inadvertently not filled you in on things, because by the time I realized you didn’t know about it, it was way too late to fill you in.

Anne: The abusive behaviors you knew about were lying, manipulation, and gaslighting.

Lorelai: Everything physical and psychological, when you’re young and get married, you always want to have sex. Sometimes you give in when your husband wants to do it a second time. When I was younger, I didn’t think about it. I didn’t think about abuse, or how do I know how to identify abuse?

But looking back, I had it multiple times a day, it was too much. I was sore all the time. After we had our fourth child, I only got two weeks recovery before he expected me to return to fulfilling my duties.

Anne: “Fulfilling your duties,” Was that kind of a theme in your marriage? That it was owed to him, that it was one of your wifely duties?

Lorelai: Yes, it was owed to him. Although, he sugar coated it by making sure it was always good for me. And being really frank here, I love it. So it was easy for me to go along with it.

Marital Abuse & Disabled Child

Lorelai: When he put the effort in, I could have as many orgasms as I wanted, as long as I put out for him. So I didn’t realize at first that I couldn’t say no. I didn’t realize I couldn’t say no until, again, having our fifth child. He’s seriously disabled, and trying to say no, and then finding out that that wasn’t an option. He is my last child. His official diagnosis is autistic. He’s almost 13 now, and he is a big toddler. He’s potty trained, but his interests are on the level of a 2-3 year old.

He can kind of write his name, he’s a happy kid, but he’s a lot of work. He’s a sweetie, but he’s a big baby, and he has a strict bedtime. As my child’s disability became more apparent, I needed more. My husband was not willing to give it, I started being tired, depressed, or frustrated. As things progressed, I needed to talk more. So I would need to talk or relax before it, and that wasn’t an option.

And if I couldn’t talk or relax, and I wasn’t in the mood, there was a point where he could do stuff to me in the middle of the night. My body would respond, and it wasn’t a problem. Does that make sense? When the relationship was less damaging, my body would respond. I still wasn’t thinking about abuse, or wondering if I was being abused.

Anne: So what you’re saying is Even though it wasn’t necessarily consensual, you were like, okay, in the middle of the night, even though you didn’t say, yes, I want to have it. It was enjoyable for you. It was fine.

Boundaries & Night Incidents

Anne: Later, when you became tired and life got difficult. When he would start in the middle of the night without your consent, you were like, wait a minute.

Lorelai: Yeah, I feel like I was doing it out of obligation. Fine, get it over with, guys have needs, whatever. Which is obviously not a healthy mindset, but that’s where it was. To the point, where I suddenly started having issues with orgasms. At some point in there, he developed erectile dysfunction. Looking back on it, may have been a gift from God.

Anne: Mm hmm, pornography related, by the way.

Lorelai: Yes, when he couldn’t perform, it became like a mission for him to force me to perform. The answer would be no. He’d push it until I gave in, or until I said no, then he’d do it in the middle of the night anyway.

Eventually, it reached a point where, not only could I not have an orgasm, but also, if I did, it was painful. It was like being stabbed in the crotch with hot forks. And he would do it anyway. He would wake me up and I would be crying in the middle of the night, sobbing, because it was painful and horrible.

And he would be like, this is so horrible for me. And I would be like, then stop doing it because it’s horrible for me. You’re doing it to me. I didn’t ask for this. I didn’t want this. I didn’t know that this what marital coercion was. That was when I answered, how do I know if it’s abuse? I realized there was abuse going on.

How Do I Know If It’s Abuse: Carrying The Whole Weight Of The Household

Lorelai: But like I said, I didn’t catch on to the emotional stuff until last summer.

Anne: So before you recognize the abuse, the anger, manipulation, lies, gaslighting, did you do anything to try and solve the problem. In other words, the typical marriage advice. Like, communicate better, be sexy, or go on a date night. Did you try any of that to “make sure” he didn’t get angry, or was in a good mood?

Lorelai: Oh yeah, absolutely, I carried the whole weight of the household. I did all the bills, cooking, cleaning, and took care of the kids. He did nothing. He literally came home from work, sat on the couch and played on his phone. Or just watched TV, or walked his property, you know, king of the castle. He was king of the castle. He did nothing. I planned all the dates. I planned all the trips.

And then there became a point where he would sabotage all those things, and I could see him doing it. I just didn’t know why he was doing it. So I would plan things, and he would be so on board. And then we’d go and do it, and he’d be mean to the kids, super grumpy, it was ridiculous. I got to a point where I was like, fine, you plan date nights, and he didn’t. The relationship really tanked when I stopped doing all the work.

Anne: Is that also when the sexual abuse started to get worse?

Lorelai: Probably, my memory is not good. I’m good at blocking stuff out. And just forgetting all the things that I don’t want to think about. But I’m sure it probably did line up like that.

Setting A Boundary & Him Crossing It

Anne: Yeah. We all struggle with memory issues, so no worries there. We get it. You don’t recognize you’re being emotionally and psychologically abused here, but when you knew it was abuse. What did you start to do?

Lorelai: I stopped discussing it with him, because there were always discussions about it before that. And what was going to make it good for everybody. At that point, I was like no, this isn’t a discussion because it’s not good for me. You’re forcing it on me, and you need to stop doing what you’re doing. Don’t touch me, don’t force me, and don’t do stuff to me in the middle of the night. Don’t even kiss me unless you’ve checked with me first.

I set a hard, no physical contact boundary until I say so. And he just stopped, except for in the middle of the night. Again, stuff was happening in the middle of the night. I’m exhausted and was sleeping deep. There was no waking me up. I would wake up in the morning, or I’d have nightmares. I knew something happened, but I wouldn’t have been able to wake up for it.

So, during the day, he was farther away physically, and at night, the incidents were still happening. That was a really clear message to me that he didn’t care about my boundaries.

Anne: Did you ever feel like he didn’t care about you?

Lorelai: Oh yeah, I felt that way all the time, but I kept trying to tell myself that wasn’t true.

Seeking Help From Clergy

Lorelai: You don’t marry somebody in the temple and have kids with them, and buy them a house and a car. And see, I’m a woman, so common sense dictates that you don’t treat people like that unless you love them. So, it never occurred to me to doubt his love for me. But his kind of love is not the kind of love I want anyway.

About two years ago, it had gotten to the point where I was suicidal. I have a handicapped child and four other wonderful children, and a great supportive family. And I was suicidal, and I could not figure out what it was. I talked to my Bishop and said, look, like I’m unhappy in my marriage. My husband treats me like garbage. I’m not happy about what’s going on. Now, let me be clear. I’ve talked to several bishops about this, and nobody did anything.

One of my bishops was going to tank Jason’s career over it. He was convinced not to, because that was not in the best interest of anybody at that point. And so he backed off and left it alone. And after that point, I didn’t feel comfortable seeing him, because I knew he felt strongly about it. He was a great guy, and had eight girls, okay? He had a lot of kids, and they were all girls.

So he was one of those guys looking out for his women, and he was protective. I didn’t want to talk to him about it anymore. because I was concerned he would talk to Jason and that Jason would make my life worse.

Identifying abuse: Bishops’ Reactions

Anne: All right, many women come on this podcast, and I talk to a lot of women. They are concerned their clergy isn’t doing enough. They’re concerned they’re not taking it seriously, and that they’re not holding them accountable. Now we know every woman’s situation is different. So in this case, in your particular instance, your concern with this bishop wasn’t that he was not doing enough. It was that he was doing so much that you were worried about his job?

Lorelai: Yes, Jason is a police officer, but it’s like the military. There’s a rank, there’s a chain of command to go up. My bishop at that time was in the military, so he understood that chain of command and was willing to take steps. But it was not a good idea at that time, financially and socially for my kids. It would have broken our family apart, and I was just not in any kind of healthy place at that point to go through that.

Anne: I want to just pause here to note. All the things that victims go through, because people are always like, why don’t women report sexual abuse? Talking to Lorelai, a super smart, capable, aware person in an abusive relationship who gets help from someone. Then faces all these other consequences that people don’t consider. And that is one of the reasons why women don’t report.

And that’s also one of the reasons why sometimes they say, no, don’t help. It’s important to understand all the different aspects when they’re trying to figure out what’s going on. And figuring out how to identify abuse, and then secondly, when they’re trying to get to safety.

Concerned Clergy

Lorelai: Yes, absolutely. Remember, because I told you that I live in a different state than my husband. We were in the state where he worked. I’m in a different state now. But he basically lived with his parents, where he worked when he was working. And when he was not working, he would return to where we are in a different state.

So when that move happened, obviously we had a different bishop than the last one trying to look out for me. And it’s been five years since we’ve been here, and we’ve had two bishops. And the first one, I think, was concerned. My first bishop here was friends with Jason, so it was not going to get addressed.

I could see that he felt bad. He actually cried when I told him what was going on, but he did nothing. By the time I was suicidal, we had a different bishop. And when I talked to him about what was going on with Jason, he’s not a crier. So that didn’t happen. He did not confront Jason either, because I told him not to. But what he did was reinforce to me. He said my dad was abusive to my mom, and nobody should ever have to go through that. He said I’m not gonna tell you what to do.

I’m not gonna tell you to leave him, I’m not gonna tell you to stay with him. What I’m will say is that what is happening to you right now is not okay, it’s abuse. It should not be happening.

Medication & Realization

Lorelai: If you’re suicidal, maybe you want to think about seeing a psychiatrist and getting on some meds. But absolutely, what he’s doing to you is wrong. He was pretty new, so I don’t know that he knew exactly what to do. When he just recommended I go get some medication. But that’s how it started. I started with medication for being suicidal. And while I was on the medication, I realized I could pretty much ignore all the horrible things he did, because I just stopped caring.

I was totally zombied out. They tried me on six different medications in a year. At the end of it, I realized that the health problems I had already developed because of being in this abusive relationship were worse. My health worsened because of the medication I was taking that I didn’t need.

What I needed was to get out of the abusive relationship, stop taking the medication, and deal with the relationship. So what I did was look at your stuff on Facebook. Facebook has that great algorithm. You know, if you’ve looked at this, you might like this. So Facebook knew I was looking for a therapist to deal with some trauma. So I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I stopped seeing my one therapist within a few months, and started coaching with Betrayal Trauma Recovery.

There was a particularly bad incident. I don’t even remember what happened, but it was bad. And I didn’t know what to do.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Helps Identify abuse

Lorelai: I opened Facebook and saw Betrayal Trauma Recovery and the support group. I signed up for the group, and went to my first one. And I was trying to talk to people about what was happening, because I was just sorting it out. I was confused and like, what is going on here? How do I fix this? How do I know if it’s abuse for sure? Like I said, just shock.

Group resonated so drastically in my soul, instantaneously. I thought, I am officially not responsible for this relationship anymore. It was this huge weight off of me, it was like the lightbulb went on, ding! I was overwhelmed. It wasn’t me, it was never me, it was always him. I could trace it all the way back through now 18 years. I could see every incident. Everything just resonated. It was like, this is not your fault. The problem is not you. The problem is with his behavior.

Lorelai: And at that point, I was like, yep, and within about three months, we were separated.

Anne: This is why abuse education is so important. Abuse education doesn’t create abuse. The abuse exists and we help women recognize it. Some of these women have found out crazy things, to the point where some are wondering, “Is my husband gay?” It’s not the women who come to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, whose husbands are these incredible healthy men. And then after they get educated about abuse, they’re like, oh, my word, he’s abusive. That doesn’t happen. If he’s healthy, and women listen to the podcast and get educated about abuse. They are like, oh, I don’t relate to that.

So for women listening and wondering I’m not sure. That makes me nervous. I don’t want to go to this group, and they’re going to make a mountain of a mole hill.

Knowing Whether Or Not He’s Abusive

Anne: I want to put everybody at ease. Many women have listened to the podcast or they’ve attended a group session. And they’re like, I didn’t relate. Also, my workshop helps women know what to do after betrayal helps women figure out what is my husband’s true character. Many women have enrolled, and they’re like, holy cow, this explains everything. Then other women have been like, this definitely explains abuse, and now I know he’s not abusive.

Your abusive husband will tell you that Betrayal Trauma Recovery was the cause of you thinking he’s abusive when he’s not. And that’s just not true. You will know once you get educated about abuse, whether he’s abusive, and then you can make decisions.

Lorelai: Oh, absolutely.

Anne: Can you talk about maybe your fear at first?

Lorelai: I didn’t have that. I read all the relationship books. My husband was sneaky. It was just little things. Nobody noticed them. I didn’t even notice them. He would just blink, and then I would blow up, and I would be the crazy one. I’m the redhead, the one who’s losing it all the time over dumb stuff. I’m the one who’s just stressed and overwhelmed from taking care of the baby. Never mind the fact that he never bothered to help take care of the baby. It was always me.

He had made it clear from the beginning that he was putting up with me, and I believed him. That’s my issue. I don’t know why I believed him for 17 years. That’s something I’m working through now. It’s helping me.

Separation & Moving On

Lorelai: And honestly, it’s helping my girls, because guess what? I have two girls. Who are 21 and 23 respectively, who are struggling with relationships. These guys are not up to par, and they don’t know why this stuff is happening. So my girls and I are doing the work together. It took a little bit to separate. He did not want to separate. It’s funny, because the whole time he tells me that maybe he needs to find somebody else because I’m so worthless.

Then when I say, great, let’s move on, he’s like, no, no, I don’t want to move on. Because he doesn’t get to control me if I move on. So it took a little bit of doing to get him out. Obviously, I can’t just pick up my handicapped kid out of his special school and relocate anywhere. I had to convince my husband, who was pretty much living in another state anyway, except for one or two days a week, to just stay, and to let his child be here.

So it took a little bit of doing to get that done. He pretty much cut off support the minute that he realized it was over.

Anne: That’s very, very typical of an abuser, because they don’t care about your welfare or the kid’s welfare. Because no one who actually cared about you would think, like, how’s she going to pay for groceries? Like, how are my kids gonna eat? But it’s a control tactic to cut off the finances. Because if they cut off the finances, they think you’re going to come crawling back because you’re desperate for groceries. So it’s a control tactic.

How Do I Know If It’s Abuse: Financial Abuse

Lorelai: Yeah, you know what’s funny? Thinking back, my husband has used every abuse tactic in the book, but he didn’t use them at the same time. Because I fought it and adapted. So when one abuse tactic stopped working, he switched to a different one. And his biggest abuse tactic was the financial abuse. So for the last three or four years, I haven’t had any credit cards of my own. He’s in charge of the money. And I just thought he was finally being responsible.

I thought he was finally interested in the budget, but he was systematically cutting me off of everything. In the middle of us separating, he refinanced the house and took my name off the mortgage. Which I guess was supposed to hurt me, but actually it’s gonna hurt him because I’m still on the deed. Every time I established a boundary, he would adapt his abuse. It wasn’t gonna end.

Anne: Instead of recognizing that you’re equal and on the same team. Abusive men feel like they don’t have any power. They don’t have any personal power unless they have power over someone. One of the ways they keep an imbalance of power is by withholding information so that they know more than you. So if you find out what they know, suddenly you’re equal. So then they’re like, Oh shoot, I’ve got to find another way to maintain this power imbalance.

Because that is what abuse is, in a nutshell: they don’t feel like they have any power in their own life unless they have power over you. So how do I know if it’s abuse? If he has to maintain power over you.

Healthy Relationships

Anne: Whereas in a healthy relationship, two people find power from honesty and equality. The power is the personal power that you have when you’re honest, kind and integrity. That is a power that I don’t think these abusive men understand.

Lorelai: Yeah, I’ve devoted my whole life to my kids. I have five kids, and we’re all close. Looking back, I’ve seen where he wasn’t happy about that. He wasn’t happy my kids and I were close, or when he would end up on the outside. Just because he never bothered to spend time with anybody, get to know anybody, or be involved in anybody’s lives. He hated that.

And so looking back, I realized that many of the problems I had with my kids, a lot of just normal parenting stuff, you know, fights and who’s in charge of this. He started because he didn’t want me and my children to have a good relationship. I have only seen our relationship get stronger as I’ve moved on. My kids and I are closer than ever.

I was just thinking about this this morning, it kind of made me cry a little bit. I have five children, and three are from a different dad, but my kids don’t talk about being half siblings. It’s just brothers and sisters, they’re all super close. And they’re all super caring and loving towards each other, and there’s no distinction for us. He didn’t understand that, and he’s missing out.

Anne: Yeah, so he cut you off financially. Did you have to file stuff in court in order to help your finances?

Lorelai: Yes, we had to expedite things when he cut everybody off. My mom died unexpectedly from cancer and we moved here to help my dad put the pieces back together.

Support From Family

Lorelai: And then we ended up staying, because the schools here were fantastic. And my little guy needed a good school. So we decided it was in his best interest. And my husband had no problem living halfsies, one in each state. Because it was for the greater good of our youngest child. So my dad has been supportive. As soon as my mom died, he basically was like, can I just live with you? He has a room at my house, and he has moved in full time.

Since Jason and I separated, my dad has been great about making sure everything’s covered for me. It’s hard for him to see what’s going on.

Anne: Has he been surprised at how abusive Jason is?

Lorelai: Yes, he has. I don’t know if he would have believed it if he hadn’t seen it with his own eyes. I’m the oldest of five. One of my brothers has died, but I still have other siblings, and I’m pretty close with everybody. I think everybody was surprised. You never know what goes on in people’s lives. It’s so important not to make judgment calls or anything based on what you can see on the outside. But yeah, so my dad has been really, really, really great.

He’s helped me start a business. I’m doing a notary business now, and I work another job. I can work from home, all gifts from God, because it’s hard to get out with my little guy.

Anne: One of the things I noticed once I stopped managing his life. Number one was he didn’t do anything, nothing to try and get back in my home. But I also noticed how peaceful I felt. I noticed how much better my life was going.

How Do I Know If It’s Abuse: Emotional Growth & Recovery

Anne: Even though I was in like limbo in terms of how anything was going to go, I was feeling a lot better. Tell me where you are in that process and how you’re feeling right now.

Lorelai: I’m feeling good. It was hard, right after it happened. It was bleak in the winter. But I did a lot of coaching with Betrayal Trauma Recovery during that time. That was helpful. My health improved, I don’t have night terrors anymore, I’m not as afraid all the time. Then I crunched hard on my business, because I needed something to keep me going.

While I felt safer at home, checking my email was always traumatic. I got a pain in my chest when I checked my email and saw an email from him, because I knew it wasn’t going to be anything good. So now we have the Our Family Wizard app.

Anne: Yeah, using the strategies you learned from my workshop about what to do after betrayal improves things significantly. Women say they start feeling better because they’re not as traumatized by their phone, especially when they implement the strategies on Our Family Wizard.

Lorelai: Yeah, getting accurate documentation of all the abuse. Because we still own this house together, and my oldest son is also autistic, he was the main guy on my son’s SSI account. There were things we needed to discuss from time to time. Much of it has been learning how to remind myself that whatever he has to say does not reflect on me, it only reflects on him.

There’s been a lot of growth this year. My friends and my family have all commented that I seem so much happier. I’m doing so much better.

Challenges Of Education & Work

Lorelai: And I’m sure I will only continue to get better from here. It was scary, because I only have a little college. Every time I tried to work a job or go back to school, he didn’t like that. He would create problems. He would punish me when I tried to go to school or work. Or he would disappear and dump everything off on me and the kids.

And my poor kids, it would be a choice between taking care of my kids and going to school. When a 14 year old is handling everything because my husband doesn’t come home for a month. So having no education and financial prospects was scary. But it was scarier to stay in the relationship. And that’s what it came down to.

Anne: So if you could go back in time and talk to your younger self, what would you tell yourself?

Lorelai: I would be telling myself that I was worthy of love. I have learned that your feelings really are your biggest indicator of emotional safety.

And what I would tell my younger self is not to ignore those feelings, because they are crucial. When you get a funny feeling about somebody, that is legitimate. That is your cue. God has given you the feelings to tell you about things that you can’t know. Like there are so many things that you don’t know about people. And there’s no way to know sometimes, and feelings are how you know. So no that you know it’s abuse, how are you feeling?

Importance Of Feelings

Lorelai: So real love is a feeling that you can identify, and fear is a feeling you can identify. And uneasiness is a feeling that you can identify. I would go back and talk about how feelings are important, and how we are all valuable and lovable. I believe that for me personally, I wouldn’t have been so willing to swallow his nonsense about how it was me. If I had known how important it was to trust my own feelings. I didn’t trust myself. I didn’t know that I could trust myself.

Anne: And we’ve all been there. We’ve all been there, where the things we’ve learned now have opened our eyes. I’m so grateful that you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And found a place where you could get the words for what was happening to you and feel validated.

Lorelai: Yes, it was definitely put in my path. At the appropriate time, exactly when I was ready.

Anne: Sometimes I worry that women find Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and they’re not ready to go there. And they think, no, my husband’s not abusive. This is just a pornography issue. Or this is just infidelity. Those Betrayal Trauma Recovery people, they’re a little too intense. What would you say to them?

Lorelai: That’s exactly where I started. I found it. It didn’t feel like my problem exactly until I realized they all felt the same way I did. And maybe the problem was bigger than I thought, and Betrayal Trauma Recovery covers more than just the exploitative material and cheating issue. I mean, that’s a big indicator. It’s a very common indicator, but it is not the only indicator.

Respect & Human Dignity

Lorelai: And the reality is that the underlying cause is lack of respect, lack of interest in another person. The person you’re supposed to care the most about, your wife. And that’s what Betrayal Trauma Recovery addresses. All of us feel like we’re not getting the respect we deserve or the love we need. We’re human beings. We should be treated like human beings, not objects. That’s what it comes down to.

Anne: Lorelai, thank you so much for coming on today’s episode. And talking about finding your realization that you are experiencing abuse.

Lorelai: I appreciate you taking the opportunity to talk with me, and I hope anyone who needs to hear this can hear it and start working to get safe.

Anne: Thank you.

We’d all like to believe that divorce stops abuse, but post separation abuse is so common. The truth is, abusers don’t stop wanting power over their victims, even after divorce.

To learn if your ex-husband is continuing to abuse you after your separation or divorce, take my free emotional abuse test.

What Is Post Separation Abuse?

Post-separation abuse refers to the continuation of emotional, financial, and psychological abuse by an ex-partner after a relationship has ended. It can manifest in various ways, often leaving the victim feeling trapped and stressed. Understanding and identifying the signs of post-separation abuse is crucial for taking steps towards healing and protection.

1. USING THE LEGAL SYSTEM TO STAY IN CONTROL

Post-separation abuse often is enabled by the court system that court orders women to co-parent with men who are manipulative and undermining them, lying to them. It causes so much chaos.

He might be threatening to take you to court or using court orders that are meant to help you co-parent, to make things harder.

2. MAINTAINING FINANCIAL CONTROL

Many men withhold things like child support or alimony so that you have to contact him to get it. That is actually a form of post-separation abuse, and they do it on purpose to make sure that they’re still relevant, that they can control what you’re doing so you have to be put through the wringer of contacting them every single time.

3. Manipulating Your Children’s Lives

Post-separation abuse can also include creating chaos for your children in order to exert control over you. Such as, refusing to adhere to set schedules or neglecting to take your children to extracurricular activities. They may also send subtly intimidating emails. They are difficult to pinpoint as dangerous. But they intend to cause fear and anxiety.

Get The Right Support while you are experiencing Post-separation abuse

At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we recognize the difficulty of understanding post-separation abuse. And are dedicated to providing the support you need. Our community offers:

• Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions: Join one of our many group sessions for support, guidance, and understanding from women who have been through similar experiences.
• Betrayal Trauma Recovery Individual Sessions: Receive one-on-one attention and strategies tailored to your situation with our specially trained betrayal trauma coaches.

Why Choose Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions?

• Expert Support: Our professional coaches experienced personal betrayal trauma. They are equipped to help you find peace and protection for yourself and your family.
• Accessible & Affordable: For just $125 a month, you have access to over 92 group sessions—providing real support at the cost of just one therapy appointment.
• Immediate Help: Attend a group session within hours and start receiving the support you need today.

Take Action to Protect Yourself During Post-separation Abuse

You don’t have to face post-separation abuse alone. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is here to help you take the steps necessary to protect yourself and your children. Attend a group session today, and join a community that understands your struggles and supports your healing journey.

If you’re going through post-separation abuse, consider enrolling in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop to learn the secrets of why an ex would continue to cause chaos after divorce.

With Post Separation Abuse, Boundaries Are Key

Boundaries help victims separate themselves from abusive behavior. Boundaries are not:

• Ultimatums
• Consequences for bad behavior
• Mechanisms to control another person’s behavior

Instead, boundaries are courageous actions that victims take to ensure they are as protected as possible from harm. Setting and maintaining boundaries in a divorce is key to navigating post separation abuse.

What Are Some Boundaries That Can Help Me Navigate Post Separation Abuse?

Remember that boundaries aren’t going to stop your abuser from being abusive, but they are intended to limit your exposure to your ex-husband’s post separation abuse tactics.

Some ideas of boundaries you can set and maintain include:

• Using a parenting communication app, like Our Family Wizard, as your sole mode of communication (consult with your attorney).
• Determining certain times of day, or days of the week, that you will check and respond to messages from your ex
• Bringing a family member or friend with you to drop off/pick up the children

A Strong Support System Is Essential When Navigating Post Separation Abuse

Post-separation abuse can sometimes feel overwhelming. It’s imperative that victims develop a strong support network.

Post separation abuse victims can find support from:

• Safe family members
• The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group
• Trauma-informed specialists, like Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coaches

Transcript: The Truth About Post Separation Abuse

Anne: What is post-separation abuse? Marcie’s here to tell her story. We’ll talk about the post-separation abuse she experienced since her divorce. Welcome Marcie

Marcie: Hi.

Anne: Can you start at the beginning of your story?

Marcie: Before that, I’d like to share a funny story. This was when we had originally separated. I tried to send something to my husband to help him understand the situation. It happened to be something from you. And I didn’t know it was from you at the time. It just resonated with me, and I thought it would help.

And since that time in all his communication, he references you as this horrible person trying to break up families. And do horrible things for women.

Early Relationship Dynamics

Marcie: And I feel like it’s ironic that now I’m actually part of that community and maybe helping other women in bad situations, like I was and currently still am.

Anne: So he introduced you to Betrayal Trauma Recovery?

Marcie: Well, I saw something I read and didn’t know it was Betrayal Trauma Recovery.

Anne: And then you showed him, like, hey …

Marcie: Yeah.

Anne: … this will help you be a better person.

Marcie: Yes.

Anne: And since then, I am the devil.

Marcie: Of course.

Anne: And it’s my fault that you’re setting boundaries, rather than his abuse, of course.

Marcie: Yes.

Anne: I get that a lot, no worries. I’m happy to take that heat for you. So talk about the beginning.

Marcie: I met him in high school, and I was young. It was actually before I started high school, so I was very inexperienced with relationships or this type of behavior. And at the beginning, like most of us, it doesn’t start feeling wrong, it starts feeling great. This person is loving. I misunderstood controlling things as loving things.

Like, oh, you shouldn’t do that with your friend. That might not be safe for you, but it was a controlling issue. Then we married fairly young and had kids. Then a lot of these things that now I look back with eyes open and see were wrong or damaging. I was told this is normal, I’m crazy, and all the typical things that most of us hear in these situations.

And then we feel like, well, that must be true. It must be us.

https://youtu.be/odtr70bY2Ew?si=xxY6fBWFYW954bV8 Appeasing Him

Marcie: I am now, in my fifties. Our relationship started when I was 14 and we married when I was 21. I feel like it took me a long time to realize that it was such a problem. But I basically tried to appease him in every way possible, because when I didn’t, it was miserable. So that happened for a long time. And then there was the fear of not appeasing him or doing things his way.

Anne: So back then, you were doing that to protect yourself.

Marcie: Absolutely.

Anne: You didn’t know that you were resisting back then, but that was a form of resistance, trying to get it to stop.

Marcie: Absolutely, I felt like if I was what he wanted me to be, then it would stop. And of course, in whatever discussions we had about it, or arguments, it was usually my fault. Whatever reaction I was getting was because I wasn’t doing something right. Or I wasn’t being what he needed me to be. So I kept trying to resist his behavior by doing whatever I could to be the best wife I could be.

I literally ran myself ragged trying, but it was impossible. And it never really made things better.

Anne: Hmm, when did you notice that wasn’t improving things for you?

Marcie: I noticed it a long time ago. But I just kept trying, because I didn’t know what my options were. And the longer it went on, I think the more I felt like it was my fault that I couldn’t be what he needed. He kept telling me that, or that I was crazy.

Understanding Post Separation Abuse

Marcie: There was one point where he, this was quite a while ago, like at least 20 years ago. He said I needed antidepressants because I was hard to deal with. Before I actually left, I realized, of course, I was depressed. I lived with someone who made it impossible to function. He made it impossible to have any type of normal life. He constantly made me feel like I was inadequate, horrible, or bad at everything I did.

It was confusing. And honestly, I didn’t have much time to think about how I felt, because I was the sole financial provider for our family of eight. And I worked a lot, plus I had all the responsibilities at home. I attributed it to my busyness. Or that, I don’t know, I didn’t have much chance to think about how I was feeling. When I realized I was depressed, we tried therapy. It doesn’t work in abusive situations.

And the therapist we went to was horrible, because he wouldn’t let me talk about the past. He felt like I’m going to fix this and this magical person who’s going to fix your relationship. We’re going to build from right now, and we’re not going to go into the past at all. And that was really empowering to my ex husband, because he didn’t want to talk about the past either.

There was actually discussion before I went to the therapist about, you can’t talk about certain things. And I told him, well, if we don’t talk about those things, that are some of the major issues. How will we resolve our problems? And I couldn’t say certain things without fear of what the reaction would be when we returned home.

Therapy & Depression

Marcie: And the therapist would not allow me to speak. And we did have a test. There were a bunch of questions that we were both supposed to fill out. I answered things honestly, and it came back that I was depressed. He mocked me for that, made fun of me for that. And it just emphasized that I was the problem because I was depressed. It emphasized his impression that it was my fault, and yeah, I couldn’t handle everything.

Anne: He’s like, you’re going to work full time and take care of these kids full time. Your depression is causing me problems because dinner’s not on the table. He’s an exploitative person with an exploitative character. One of the things I want women to think about is what do they want? What is the goal of him telling you that you’re depressed? Is it to get you to work harder? Or is it to get you to feel bad about yourself? Is it to get you to stop trying to get him to do something?

They usually have something in mind that they’re trying to accomplish. In your case, I think he probably worried you might find out who he was, because he relied on you for everything.

Marcie: I definitely believe that was the case. That was towards the end of our, I don’t know if you could call it a relationship, whatever it was. And I had started to question him a lot more. I had started to say no a lot more, which, by the way, for anybody before they get into a relationship, there’s a simple test.

The “No” Test, Manipulation & Control

Marcie: It’s the ‘no” test. You say no to something and see how they react. And that’s the simplest, easiest way to figure out how people react. But I started saying no. And of course, I became more problematic. I became more difficult.

Anne: He wanted you to continue to say yes. So he’s manipulative when he says, that’s why you’re saying no. Because you’re certainly not saying no, because it’s an unreasonable request I’m making.

Marcie: Most of us in this situation experience the fact. That the way we do things for them, the way we bend over backwards to make them happy, they love. It’s not a problem for them at all. So they have a hard time seeing that there’s a problem in a relationship, because for them, they get what they want. And if they don’t, they throw a fit, and then usually they do.

Anne: It’s working for them. If they can scare you enough or manipulate you enough, the victim resists this type of behavior by doing what he wants. They think that will reduce the behavior, he’s happy about that. She’s still resisting the abuse, and still trying to make things better.

She’s always trying to improve her situation. And if she’s trying to improve it by being like, if I do this, he won’t get mad at me. Or if I do this, it’ll improve things. Then he’s like, cool. But he’s not thinking about you. He’s not thinking about your feelings. He’s just trying to get what he wants out of the situation.

What Is Post Separation Abuse: Recording Conversations To Maintain clarity

Marcie: Absolutely, that depression thing was such a small slice of, there’s gotta be something wrong with me. I started recording things to help me realize that I wasn’t crazy. At first, the only reason why I recorded was he keeps telling me something that didn’t happen. Or he keeps telling me that this conversation didn’t go the way that it did. We’d had circular arguments about well, yes, you said this and this is what you said.

“No, I didn’t, I never said that. You’re wrong. See, you can’t remember things correctly. Your brain doesn’t work,” all those negative things that would make me go, what’s wrong with me? Why am I remembering these things incorrectly, or why am I remembering it differently from what he said? And in my mind, I know it went that way. So the only way I could confirm that in my brain was to record the conversations.

I want to emphasize how dangerous recording can be if he found out. Because he doesn’t want that, doesn’t want to be contradicted. I started feeling empowered when I realized I’m not crazy. I’m not making this up. Sometimes he accused me of like screaming and yelling at him, and I’d listen to it.

I’m like, well, I didn’t scream and yell or this didn’t happen. Whatever it was, it confirmed that what he was saying wasn’t true. And it was so helpful for me to start seeing this as abuse or to see that, there was a problem.

Anne: Yeah, that’s very brave of you. And also really awesome.

Journaling & Trauma Response

Anne: When I went through it, one of the things I did for a very short time was write in my journal, good days and bad days. Because in my head, I thought, okay, he’s just wonky three days a month. And I did the math and I was like, oh, that’s only 10 percent of a month. Is three out of 30 in an ideal marriage, 27 days and 3 days a bad marriage. Is three days worth it?

And I did these calculations, but when I actually wrote it down, it was happening every day. I just didn’t notice it was happening every day when I wasn’t tracking it. Recording it or journaling is so helpful.

Marcie: I also journaled and feel like that was tremendously helpful. I did that before I started recording. Like what you said, to get an idea of what was happening. Quite a few years ago, I actually had called to get help for him because he threatened suicide. If I didn’t do things his way, he threatened suicide.

And so I called for help for him. They referred to someone else, and they told me about power and control wheel. Which helped me understand this too. But I also went to a therapist at that time. And I expressed to her, we’ll have these horrible arguments in the evening. And then the next day I cannot remember them.

I can’t remember what they were about. It’s like, I can’t remember anything, no matter how hard I tried. And she explained to me that that is a trauma response to help you function.

Living In Between Horrible Things

Marcie: She basically explained it to me, as if you remember these difficult situations, you might not be able to function the next day. And so that’s a trauma response. So writing them down is hard, because you have to address them. But then, like what you said, you thought it was only three times a month when it was every day. I think our brains want us to forget the horrible things, so we do.

Anne: Well, and also, the next day he seems normal, at least in my experience. I thought, well, maybe I’m crazy. He seems fine today. It wasn’t like the next day he woke up and he was terrible. He acted fine. That made it confusing too like thinking, oh, it’s fine.

In those times where you feel desperate for help, that’s a great time to take action. To call a local domestic violence shelter, or attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery group session in that moment. Because you often let it sit for a minute, and then things seem fine, and it doesn’t seem weird to you until it happens again. So you’re always living in between.

Marcie: That’s making sense. The only thing is for myself and my situation, I had a fear to reach out for help. Which probably a lot of us do. I just intuitively knew that would be crossing a line of his, which would send him into a negative way.

Confronting the reality of Abuse

Marcie: And there was a time when we had this situation. Where he chased me through the house and backed me into a corner. I put my hands up, and he was so close to me that my hands were on his chest. And I said, you need to leave me alone. And after that happened, I don’t remember how it ended. But he kept telling me that I had put my hands on him, and he could call the police and say I assaulted him. Because I put my hands on him and he didn’t touch me at all.

I was trying to explain to him how that doesn’t sound right. It wasn’t the case, and he said you could call anybody and they would side with me. It was just another typical thing that he would say, how other people would feel about certain situations. And so I said, okay, well then let’s call the domestic abuse hotline right now. And he’s like, go ahead, call. He didn’t think I would call, but I did. They immediately told me, this is not a safe situation. This is not good.

But after that call, he was angrier with me than I’ve ever seen him. He explained it to me as the biggest betrayal he has ever felt from me. It was worse than if I had an affair. And I feel like that was because being found out or proved wrong was the worst thing he could experience.

Anne: Or he’s just lying in that moment.

Marcie: Or lying.

Anne: To make you feel like he feels super betrayed for you calling the domestic violence shelter, in order to intimidate you.

Marcie: Yes.

Lies & Recording Conversations

Anne: They lie so much that it’s hard to be like, yeah, that was so devastating for him. Because he told me, I’m thinking, was it? Was it devastating for him? Because he’s a liar. We just never know what is going on in their minds, since they lie so much.

Marcie: Well, in looking back, there are so many things that are lies that I didn’t see as lies. Or didn’t want to see as lies or didn’t want to believe as lies that now I know. But that brings me back to the beauty of recording. So flash forward many years from that, that first original recording to now, where four years ago. I got a restraining order, which allowed me to record conversations between him and me, or him and the children.

It’s specific for victims of domestic violence who have a restraining order. To record, so I could record and use those recordings in court.

Anne: Did he know that you were allowed to do this?

Marcie: Yes.

Anne: Okay, so he knows he’s being recorded?

Marcie: He knows he’s being recorded, but I don’t know if most of these people are like this. He’s very cocky. I think he’d forget, too. Or he didn’t care or didn’t think what he was saying was wrong. In fact, at the beginning, he definitely didn’t think what he was saying was wrong. There were recordings from when he had phone calls and supervised visits. And these were during those phone calls, and he felt okay, because this was the way he was feeling.

Differences Between Counties Dealing With Custody

Marcie: So it was a right for him to let them know. But when I transcribed those recordings, things such as your mother is trying to kill me by doing this, and your mother hates me. And just things that were not appropriate for children to hear.

Anne: You’re recording his phone calls with your kids. This is one way to combat his abuse when fighting a narcissist for custody.

Marcie: Correct, and this has been going on for four years. In the meantime, because of those recorded conversations, they’ve limited his phone calls to a shorter amount of time. As well as took away the supervised visits. Which he wasn’t doing anyway, because when I stopped planning them for him, it was too much work or whatever. I don’t know. He didn’t want to pay for it, but he didn’t do it, but they took away that right and made it just phone calls.

But another important thing for people in the situation to know is that. The county in which you reside is the court where your custody issues will be heard. And I don’t know if that’s in all states, but I know in California, that’s the issue. So there are many counties that understand domestic abuse. And they try to understand that dynamic when they make decisions regarding the children.

There are other counties that do not understand that dynamic. They tend to feel that both parents should be with the children no matter what. And they don’t take into account the background or danger. So for many women who are having some big challenges within the court system, that if they live in another county, they might get a different viewpoint and a different result.

Post Separation Abuse INcludes legal maniplulation

Marcie: I’ve also experienced, legal abuse where he keeps going back to court.

Anne: His post separation abuse includes him taking you back to court, even though you’re divorced and even though he has a protective order? Is his protective order still in place?

Marcie: It was made permanent. But in his communication with me previously, he threatened me that he’s going to keep going to court. He has said, this is the only thing you understand. And he’s been in contempt in some ways that have caused me to respond to things worse that have cost me money.

Anne: Yeah, it’s so frustrating that they can wreak so much havoc, and the court system doesn’t stop them. It’s a very difficult situation, and that’s why strategy, I think, is so important. And why I created The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Because confronting them or communicating better, or all the things the therapist might tell you.

Or a guardian ad litem might tell you, or reunification therapists will tell you, do not work. So many of you have experienced the trauma of all that. And strategy, we found, is the only thing that can help us stay sane.

Financial Manipulation

Anne: I mean, he’s costing you all this money. Since you were the primary breadwinner, did he actually start working?

Marcie: No.

Anne: So he’s doing legal abuse, how is he paying for his legal stuff?

Marcie: He keeps saying he’s borrowing money, but I know he’s getting it from family members. It’s just his way. He always has people take care of him or pay for him. And it ties into his narrative of how he will describe what’s happening and make me the villain.

Anne: To place him in the victim role.

Marcie: Yes.

Anne: Rather than the perpetrator. You were the primary breadwinner, did he get alimony from you?

Marcie: No.

Anne: Whew, he’s probably mad about that. He lost his meal ticket.

Marcie: He did.

Anne: Yeah, I bet that’s the thing that’s the most anger producing for him.

Marcie: Yeah.

Anne: You’re not good for anything now.

Marcie: I am useless.

Anne: Yeah, you’re completely useless to him. That’s what we want to be, we want to be useless.

Marcie: Yes.

Anne: To these guys. Let’s talk about the smear campaign he started. Smear campaigns are common with post separation abuse. Was this, I guess, during your divorce proceedings?

Smear Campaign

Marcie: Yes, all along, he leaves out small details, sometimes large details. Or sometimes totally represents things differently from how they are to be the victim. And when I originally contacted you, I asked how do you deal with the smear campaign. This is happening with my in-laws, and it was so upsetting to me to feel like I had lost my in-laws. I’m sure many women have felt the same feeling. I’ve known them since I was a teenager.

I feel like they thought of me like a daughter, and the ironic part is they knew how he was. Not to the extent of what I knew, but they knew, and several times his dad said, I’m sorry he’s acting that way. I don’t know why he behaves that way to you sometimes, it doesn’t sound right.

His mom would say similar things, things like, if he keeps treating the children that way, they’re not going to want to talk to him. They knew how he was. He would treat them that same way, but they don’t want to talk to me. My adult children have refused to talk to their father, and they feel like that’s horrible. His post separation abuse includes his lies to everyone about me.

They don’t interact with them. They barely interact with their younger grandchildren anymore. And it’s just sad, but at first it was really, really upsetting. And then I realized, well, if they’re believing him. If they’re going to stand beside him when he’s abusive and believe things that aren’t true. I guess it has to be okay that those people aren’t in my life anymore.

What Is Post Separation Abuse: False Memories & Manipulation

Marcie: Oh, that’s so hard. So, on the phone calls with the kids, he tells them things that aren’t true. Well, gosh, there are so many things that he does to them that I feel are so damaging for them. They’re not small, tiny children, but still. He plants false memories. Do you remember when we did this together, and this together? Or I have the memory of whatever it was, being miserable because he didn’t want to go, or they weren’t behaving,

Like, for instance, my youngest is 12 and my oldest is 31. My ex-husband was really into baseball. He played when he was a kid. None of the kids had done any type of baseball or organized sports. The younger children wanted to, but weren’t able to when we were together. There was always an excuse we’re not going to have time, whatever. But after I left, it was the first time my youngest son was enrolled in Little League, and he loved it.

My ex husband kept saying, remember when we used to go outside and play baseball all the time? I always wanted you to be in sports, but it couldn’t work because of mom’s schedule.

Anne: It’s your mom’s fault that you couldn’t take baseball. Yeah, Um hmm. That’s one example of manipulation being a tactic of post separation abuse. Your ex is using the kids to hurt you.

Marcie: And I think, well, before I would have fallen into that and felt the guilt. But now I think, well, okay, if it was my fault, then how come I did that after I left you? But I couldn’t do it when there were two people in the home?

Impact On Children

Marcie: It was so much harder to do anything. But just the false memories of, we used to go out and play catch all the time, which is not true. A lot of those type of things. The criminal things or the things he did to break the restraining order. There were so many more things, but they don’t address it in the way you’d like. Let’s put it that way.

But I don’t talk to the kids about the court cases or anything like that, because I feel it’s not for them to be concerned about it. I don’t want them to be part of that. But he would tell them incorrect information about what they’re about, leave out all the important things, and tell them that Mom’s doing this because she doesn’t want me to see you. Those types of things damaged my relationship with the children.

Anne: And that’s the point. He’s purposefully doing that to do damage. It damages you and the kids, and that is the intent of post separation abuse, which is so unfortunate.

Marcie: It is very hard. Only two out of six of my children will speak with him. Of the two that do, that’s obviously where it’s the most damaging. I’m having trouble with my 17 year old because he’s trying to be the cool dad. He’s encouraging him to stay out late on school nights, not with friends, but with him, and he’s missed school. And he’s actually not supposed to see him, but that’s another thing. He’s luring them with being able to buy them things.

Anne: Does he have a job now?

Marcie: No, he does not. He gets money from family members, and he claims to be homeless. Yet he purchases things for them.

Processing The Abuse

Marcie: That’s where recording comes in wonderfully, because we do have a court case that he started. He wants custody again. And I think this time I’m including a lot of recordings that I’ve transcribed, which has been helpful.

Anne: It started when you were 14, and has continued this whole time, and everything he’s done has been part of that con. And he continues to do that con. You are experiencing post separation abuse. He lies to your kids, and he lies to everybody else. So the whole thing has been the show. So if you can think of it in that overarching way of, it’s been this show. And then, how do you tell the story within that con? That might help you process it.

Marcie: When you put it in that sense, it is just a continuous con. He’s just reaching and grabbing for different cons that will work. That helps put it in perspective.

Anne: Yeah, because he’s doing the same thing over and over. Even though it’s maybe not the same lie. It’s lying in a different way, but it’s still just lying.

Marcie: Looking back at it, it feels so surreal. Like it feels like it’s not real because it’s so insane. Does that make sense?

Anne: Um hmm, totally.

Marcie: And I feel like people aren’t going to believe me, because how could that be true? How could anyone act like that? Plus, he’s saying something different. So I think I still have a lot of healing to do, which is frustrating.

What Is Post Separation Abuse: We can help you understand

Anne: That’s the purpose of this podcast. It’s a safe place where everybody gets it and believes you. We don’t care what he says or thinks, we know he’s a liar. Here, you’re 100% believed. What is post separation abuse? We know and can help. So because of that, it’s such a safe place to be. Like, I can share my story, and he’s not going to talk back to me.

Marcie: Sometimes when you share your story with people who don’t understand, they back away or it’s just too much.

Anne: With me, I’m like, tell me more. So thank you so much, Marcie.

Marcie: Thank you so much.

FROM CONFUSION TO CLARITY: ANOTHER WOMAN’S STORY OF POST SEPARATION ABUSE

Anne: I’m so excited to have another member of our community on today’s episode. We’re going to call her Mykell. She’s a single mother of three and believes women can discover a life of peace, power and purpose post separation. Even if they’re experiencing post separation abuse. Welcome Mykell.

Mykell: Thank you so much for having me. I’m so glad to talk to you.

Anne: Your story is similar to so many of our stories where you didn’t know that you were being abused. And you figured it out. Can you tell us your story?

Mykell: For me, the story is a slow unfolding one. I met my ex-husband when I was in high school. Anybody who knew us could say that our relationship had been rocky from the start. Me, being 17 years old and not knowing much about myself or relationship dynamics. I just thought, all relationships are hard, and I’m not perfect either.

And gradually over the years and decades, as things unfolded. It became clear that there was a spiritual separation in our relationship. As he continued to make various choices. It got rockier, and the thing that’s confusing in these situations is I’m not a shrinking violet.

So when someone consistently attacks you, sometimes you will stand up for yourself, you’ll fight back. So that’s what kept things confusing for me for a long time. Going round and around and around was this thought that I’m participating in how this relationship is shaping up. As time went on, I started to say, I don’t want to respond this way anymore. I don’t want to live my life like this anymore.

Seeking Help

Mykell: And I started seeking counseling on my own, and in the midst of that, the relationship actually got worse. So in choosing to disengage and better ways of handling my own emotions in the situation. It made it clear that we were on two separate paths. As life continued to go on, there were some choices he made that eventually were deal breakers and broke everything apart.

I started getting language for what I was going through, and started getting clarity. It’s been three years since the marriage ended, but now through the community to connect with other women who are going through the same things. I started that healing process. And get help with post separation abuse.

Anne: What brought you to understand that what you experienced was abuse? This it wasn’t just that marriage is hard work. Overall, you were realizing, wait a minute, these behaviors I’m seeing in him are unhealthy, the healthier you got. But what actually helped you consider abuse?

Recognizing Abuse Patterns

Mykell: I went to a counselor about a totally separate issue. It started to unravel as I explained to her, well, this happened, and then he said this and yada, yada. She said to me, you know, this is abuse, right?

And I thought to myself, really? I don’t know that I fully grabbed onto what she was saying. But I started reading some books, and I started seeing my story in what these experts were writing about.

Mykell: And I thought, how did I ever miss this? We think we’re going to see this thing coming from a mile away, and it’s going to be so obvious that we’re going to know. But so often something feels off, but you probably would not put that word abuse to it. You’d probably say this person has anger issues or this person had trauma in their backstory or …

Anne: They have an addiction.

Mykell: Yep, it’s something that we end up couching underneath this banner of imperfection that we all have. Not realizing that the power dynamics are intentional, that there’s something bigger at play.

https://youtu.be/t-Kt15CpMdY

I said, I didn’t want to be part of that kind of thing anymore. And so that was how the road started to get to being healthy. It became so clear that we had different intentions about the way that was all going to happen.

Anne: Different ways of viewing the relationship. You were viewing it as a partnership, and he’s viewing it as I have power over, essentially. Which continues with post separation abuse. Especially if they’re doing an in-home separation.

Mykell: I hesitate to say relationship. The only way this sort of arrangement continues is when there’s a disparity, and one of the parties is seeing this as a means to an end.

Post Separation Abuse: Power Dynamics In Relationships

Anne: He has some goal is controlling the information. For example, there’s a power differential because they have more information than someone else. Before you ever defined it as abuse, did you define it as a addiction?

Mykell: This was something completely. under the radar for me. I was not even aware of all the things going on. Some behaviors and things unbeknownst to me started to come out in the midst of that process. But there was nothing before. That was like a precursor.

Anne: So you were like, something is wrong, but you couldn’t put your finger on it. And the abuse came first. And then later you realized, Oh, and he’s also using pornography. That’s important to talk about, because so many people don’t include the this when they talk about abuse. And I always want to bring it into the story to say, and there was an issue here. So people know it is part of this mess of unhealthiness.

Mykell: Yeah, and I think the thing we have to recognize with the mess of unhealthiness. There are so many types of abuse when you’re looking at the classification of what’s domestic violence. So often we think that’s only physical. And there’s emotional, there’s sexual, there’s spiritual, financial, so many ways that someone can gain power over another person.

And often it’s not even just one or two. It often covers all these categories, and so because it can be very encompassing, it makes it hard to see.

Anne: Yeah, if it were just he’s absolutely shutting down the bank account and won’t let you have any money. That might be a little more obvious. Especially with post separation abuse.

Challenges of Co-Parenting

Anne: But the little ways he’s financially abusive, or if he said God told me I can beat you up. You’d be like, well, that’s clear it’s spiritual abuse. But it’s unclear if it’s spiritual abuse if he’s kneeling down and praying by you and saying, please help my wife be more godly. Help her understand how to be a better wife, when biblical submission becomes abuse. That doesn’t necessarily feel like spiritual abuse. From your experience, what issues do single mothers commonly encounter when raising children with an abuser? Especially counter parenting.

Now, when I say raising them with an abuser, meaning you’re divorced from them, but they’re still in your life because they’re your child’s parent.

Mykell: Right, one of the difficult things is constantly trying to explain things to your former partner or trying to make decisions with them. As though they can have effective, honest, open communication. So often, it’s just a continued open door for manipulation and control to continue with post separation abuse. It is so essential to understand that it is possible to continue this walk without continually having to hand your life back over to this person.

Anne: Even if you’re expertly skilled at dealing with your ex, and you’ve got great boundaries. And you’re detached and you have all the skills going for you. Your ex can still technically abuse you because you’re being lied to, you’re being manipulated. It’s still not your fault if you don’t “communicate perfectly” with your abuser. He’s abusing you. You can do your best to be as highly skilled as possible in communication with an abuser.

Living Free Workshop

Anne: But it still has nothing to do with you, and it’s not your fault if they still don’t react well to whatever you try. I struggled with post-separation abuse for eight years after divorce.

Until I found the strategies that really, really worked, and was able to completely.deliver myself and my kids. I put those strategies in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop.

It saved me, it absolutely saved me. I mentored five different women to ensure that these strategies worked. And those women’s actual real life messages are in that workshop.

Mykell: Yep, having specific tactics is great, and also having a certain mindset. So if this person has lied to you, manipulated you, you can expect that’s still happening.

Post Separation Abuse: Use Our Family Wizard

Mykell: What you do in your communication is limit the opportunities for that to occur. I’m not going to get into the emotions or reason, or I don’t like that you did that. Not having to get too deep into the weeds. When you’re getting stuff hurled at you, absolutely have those safe people you’re like, I can’t believe this happened. They can help you work through the frustration, disappointment and hurt that is necessary.

It makes it easy to say, okay, I’m only gonna show what needs to be forward facing to this person. In terms of the logistic side of this. But when it comes to all my emotional stuff, I’ve got safe people, and I know where to get the support I need.

Depending on your situation, it may cause things to get a little riled up. For a while, they want to see if they can get a reaction from you. But over time, if you’re consistent and don’t offer reactions, and we’re not trying to be friends. Then it can get to a workable place in many instances.

Anne: So for a long time on the podcast, I touted no contact, which I did through my father, and that worked, and I was like, everybody should do this. But then I had a custody case that I lost. In the process, I needed to switch to Our Family Wizard, rather than go through my dad, so that I could communicate directly with him, which I do now.

I still have blocked him on my phone, blocked him on email. And I only communicate with him through Our Family Wizard. I never communicate with him in any other way. It needs to be taken seriously for all women dealing with an abusive ex-husband.

Manipulated Parenting

Anne: Many people have this idea in their heads. One of the manipulative things he told me was, I dream of a day where we can sit on a park bench and watch our kids play and get along. He said that to me to manipulate me into communicating with him. And I’m like, that’s never going to happen. Let’s talk about that idea, the concept of co-parenting when it comes to post separation abuse. Can you co parent with an abuser?

Mykell: The word co-parenting suggests you have two people who are parenting together. We have to recognize that in some divorce cases, people can maintain an amicable relationship. In which the children are not being used as power weapons. The relationship dynamic is not this push-pull. These two people are going on with the best interests of the kids.

Because if this person is not going to put the kid’s best interest first, and is not going to play by the rules. If you can’t establish any rules without them being manipulated. Then you know that you are parenting on your own, and this person is parenting on their own.

Anne: I wouldn’t even call it parenting. It’s like you’re parenting on your own, and this other person is like actively trying to cause problems, which is not what I would call parenting.

Mykell: It’s difficult, because we want so much to have influence over what is happening in that household, and we’re just not able to. That is the part that gets really hard, it gets heavy, it’s disconcerting, it’s scary. When you’re in that kind of situation while your kids are with you, that you are present with them.

Being Your Kid’s Safe Place

Mykell: If you can bring wonderful, healthy people into their lives to do outings with them, and I’m not saying you have to be super mom. I’m not saying you have to throw these elaborate birthday parties. This is about being your kid’s safe place. So if there are unsafe things happening when they’re away from you, and this is something we would want. Whether that unsafe stuff was happening at a parent’s house or in school.

They know Mom is safe, that when I bring her my problem, she will listen and comfort me. Maybe offer some support or solutions. Learning how to do that when you yourself are underwater is hard. The investments that you put into yourself as far as your own healing and support groups will pass on to your kids. If you’re like, that sounds overwhelming. That’s a lot of things.

Even focusing on getting stable, healthy, and strong yourself, you’ll know what conversations you should bring up. You’ll know when your child says, I don’t like that, the other parents doing X, Y, or Z. They can come to you and offer them real compassion. For every little thing that happens, we worry so much that, this is not going the way I wanted. And this is going to be their doom. God is so much bigger than all the things that we’re going through with post separation abuse.

If we look at this from a long range perspective, I want to be that safe place for my kids and do the best I can to be there for them. When they start to feel the friction, and start to feel like something is wrong. They know they have an option, and whether they choose it, that’s also out of our control.

Post Separation Abuse: Use Parallel Parenting

Mykell: There are so many parts of life in general, and this is one of them, outside our control. We do our best to create a safe and solid place, beginning with our own health.

Anne: So the short answer is no. You cannot co-parent with an abuser. Parallel parenting is the way to go. You just worry about what’s going on when you’re the parent and do the best you can. And then the things he’s doing, you could confront him about it, but we all know where that goes. Speaking of parallel parenting with post separation abuse, can you talk about that for a minute?

Mykell: This goes back to trying to manage the feelings. Let’s say there’s a divorce decree, and let’s say dad is supposed to take the kids on this night and this night. It’s a fine balance here when they perhaps would say something like, oh, well, I can’t take them that night. I’ll take them this one or, oh, sorry. I had to do this, and I can’t come get them tonight. We want to say, well, this is what the paper says, this is what the agreement is.

Sometimes we might get so caught in those very specific rules. Hey no, you should want to take your kids, or you should want to be with them, or you should be coming to their things. We’re re-engaging, and it’s an open door for a discussion or argument. Their choices are their own choices. And so if the child’s not being picked up and hurts their feelings. The fix is not necessarily to say, I need to figure out a way to get him to pick our child up.

Managing Expectations

Mykell: This is a way for the child to understand his choices. Sometimes it’s hurtful to have to walk our kids through that. We can’t cover up or try to get them to do what they’re supposed to do, or make excuses. In this instance, the sugar coating is more harmful, they’re not able to discern the truth. That’s the biggest thing: always give kids as much age appropriate truth as they can digest. And that’s where learning how to offer support is so important, because it is truth, with love.

It’s truth saying. I know this is hurtful, and I’m sorry this is happening. We’re not going to be able to fix it. If we want our kids to understand where that road to healing can come from, if we’re truthful with them all along the way. How we empower our kids by giving them truth, rather than trying to sweep it under the rug, fix it, or cover it up.

Anne: Or manage an abuser’s relationship with his children.

Mykell: Yeah, I love that word “management.” It’s such a perfect word. You can’t go in there and manage everything with post separation abuse. Sometimes the best thing you can do is simply allow that thing to play itself out. And as much as we would not want to see our kids hurt, as much as we would not want them to suffer anymore. It is a greater disservice if you are whitewashing the whole thing. Making it look like it’s not, because then eventually the truth does come out.

And then they will be frustrated with you for not being truthful with them. It can cause them to feel alienated. It can cause them to feel that you’re not safe.

Empowering Children

Mykell: That’s the biggest thing that we can offer our kids in these situations with post separation abuse, is that safe place.

Anne: Yeah, that drives me crazy when someone does something clearly not a good thing that a parent would do. And a neighbor or some “helpful” bystander will say, well, of course he loves you. He’s just busy. Or of course he cares about you. He just, and I’m like, no, no, no you’re not his top priority, not that I would necessarily say that, but let that play out. And never tell your kid, of course, he loves you when you’re like, he’s incapable of loving anyone.

Mykell: And the thing that ends up happening if you do that is you’re essentially gaslighting your kid. You’re causing them to question their own reality when you call it something else.

Anne: Because they don’t feel loved, for good reason, because their dad is selfish or incapable of loving them. So in that way, what are your thoughts about raising a child in ways that prevent them from being manipulated or deceived? How can we help our kids recognize the truth with post separation abuse?

Mykell: This is something built up over time. You’re not going to have a one-time conversation with your child about the things they’re going through. Or, hey, watch out for this, and then that’s it. If you’re having ongoing conversations with them, this can even be manipulation at school with bullies. Recognizing, how did you feel when that person treated you that way?

Practicing with them what it is to identify feelings gives them the ability to process, watch and give context.

Post Separation Abuse: Equiping Children

Mykell: As they get older, they start to look at inconsistencies, recognize them, and try to make sense of them. If they do bring you a concern, that validation of what they see or feel is so good. You can do that in a way that is not making the thing personal, it’s not bashing, it’s simply saying you see a behavior and it makes you feel uncomfortable. That is normal. As they start to have those conversations with you, they can trust you.

That instinct, or that move of the Holy Spirit, the inner voice that says, something feels unsafe and uncomfortable here. What often happens, I think, in manipulative dynamics. There is some sort of off moment, some red flag, something that is seen and not acted upon, or it’s explained away.

So one of the best things we can do for our kids in post separation abuse situations is equip them. When they see something strange or bad, inconsistent or manipulative. That we can put that right word to it and say, yeah, that is confusing. It makes sense that you’d be confused in that situation. This is where, in parallel parenting, you’re not able to control what happens over at that other house.

But you can send your kids into any environment with an understanding of what to do if they feel uncomfortable. That may look different depending on whether they have devices, whether they can drive. But it’s teaching them what are those healthy ways to address these situations. Because very often they’re not going to feel they can stand up and say something, and they may feel even in the moment, like they can’t even go anywhere.

Helping Children With Safety

Mykell: It’s letting them know. Hey, if you feel something’s funny, write it down. Or if you need to text me or you need a FaceTime or you need to leave the room and go to your bedroom. Whatever it is you devise with your child, to let them know some way to get to safety. If they’re in a dangerous situation, we want to make sure they understand how to get hold of safe adults or support authorities.

Anne: Yeah, for good little kids, I liked the book, Say No, and Tell. There’s a girl version and a boy version. It’s generally about sexual abuse, but it gives many examples: this is safe, this is unsafe, this is safe, this is unsafe. Even just using books like that to start conversations about it.

My kids now tell me all the time when they feel safe or unsafe, or when they feel uncomfortable. My little six year old is so good at saying, mom, I’m uncomfortable. This makes me feel uncomfortable, and I’m grateful.

Mykell: That’s so good. Just saying uncomfortable is great. Sometimes they can’t figure out what the feeling is, or even like the word overwhelmed. Like there’s a lot of feelings. I don’t know what they all are. Saying if you don’t know what all those are right now, that’s okay. All you know is your body’s giving you an alert that you can honor that alert system. And that you can get to safety.

Anne: One of the things that victims feel, Sheroes who have pulled themselves out of the depths of abuse. They make their way to safety, and don’t feel confident. Because a lifetime of abuse or years of abuse or continued post separation abuse has really messed with our brains.

Building Confidence As A Mom

Anne: This can be true when dating when an ex has covert narcissist traits. And our psychology, and the amount of doubt we have in ourselves from emotional and psychological abuse, is pretty extreme. We’re learning to trust ourselves again. We’re learning to trust our intuition again. There are so many things that as a victim of abuse, you’re learning to do either again or for the first time. So in what ways can moms be confident in raising their kids, even in a less than ideal situation?

Mykell: Yeah, I love that you pointed to the fact that there’s a lot of doubt that every mom experiences. And then with abuse and post separation abuse, there’s this added layer on top of it. And it’s the inability to discern sometimes what is even going on. Sometimes it’s a paralysis of not knowing what to do. Giving yourself grace to know that’s the boat you’re in right now.

Just because you’re there right now. It doesn’t mean you’re always going to feel that way, or that if you do feel that way, you’re always going to feel powerless about it. You’re not doing this all by yourself. For me, figuring out how to raise my kids with this different life, this life I didn’t intend for us. Wonderful people dropped into my life that had walked the road before me that could show me. What this thing was supposed to look like.

And it didn’t mean everything was going to be exactly cookie cutter. Sometimes it’s moms sharing the things they’re going through in Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group. Sharing their legal troubles or discipline issues. In support groups, you realize, I am not alone. I’m not the only one who feels like this.

Post Separation Abuse: Confidence Starts With Validation

Mykell: I’m not the only one whose kid is doing this or whose ex is doing that. So much confidence starts when your experience is validated and you’re being heard. And you see that many people are going through similar things. And when there are so many ideas around things you could do or avenues you could take. That I think is so empowering to say there’s actually more than one way to walk through this. Though I may not get it perfectly, we’re all in this together.

When you’re coming out of this kind of situation, you feel isolated, and sometimes you’ve been isolated. So self isolating is a normal thing. And forcing yourself back out and learning how to trust people can be hard. I’m so thankful that we’re in this digital age where these virtual groups are possible, a community. So when you think about what is the practical step, how do I start to do this?

Working through your own healing journey is a big part of that. And God brings the ultimate transformation for us as we walk through these things with him. But one of the practical ways we experience is with other wonderful, safe people around us.

Anne: We’ve seen that a lot at Betrayal Trauma Recovery and Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group. It’s awesome, because there’s no right way to do it. There are principles. Using boundaries to detach and keep safe, self care, a network of support. Anyone who’s worth their salt in recovering from abuse or post separation abuse will tell you those things. Those are important tools, but sometimes implementing it is hard, and how you’re going to implement it in your own life is hard.

Group Meetings Are Important For Recovery

Anne: Being part of a group and hearing how other women do it, or hearing other women and realizing, that doesn’t sound like it’s working. You don’t have to say that out loud, but at least you can hear it and think, okay, I don’t want to try that. It’s cool to share what’s happening with you and hear what’s happening with other people. Then the freedom to choose what you want to do. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we don’t recommend any particular life decisions.

We put safety as the top priority, emotional, psychological, and physical. How you do that is up to you. I think women need the support of a community without the dogma of the community. Does that make sense?

Mykell: Yeah, the thing that is so critical about what you’re saying is the style points. She did it this way, and that doesn’t fit my personality, but she did it this way. There’s so much in recovery that is about finding your own voice and making choices for yourself. And so many of these things, like you said, boundaries is a perfect example. Boundaries were so hard for me. I didn’t realize I didn’t have any. Or I didn’t realize that mine were so porous.

And I would look at other women and be like, oh, no, that’s so abrupt. I don’t like the way they’re doing that. In the midst of getting to know different people, though, it was like, oh, that style works for me. It’s rediscovering, and I actually don’t like to say rediscovering, because I don’t know if we ever knew ourselves. Sometimes with these things, it’s discovering who you are, what your unique voice is, and how you can assert yourself in these instances of abuse and post separation abuse.

Christian Perspectives On Abuse

Mykell: It’s empowering. I’m feeling juiced up as I say this, to start to recognize how much agency you have. That’s what makes many of these tactics come to life. When you start to figure out your own voice.

Anne: At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we’re interfaith, inter paradigm. We have atheists who listen, we have agnostics, and all denominations of Christianity, Jewish women, everyone is welcome here. Talk about some of the Christian myths or unhealthy cultural ideas in Christianity that harm women and keep them stuck in abuse.

Mykell: One of the things we have to separate out, and this is not just when it comes to abuse or post separation abuse. There are so many areas. Not always do people reflect the heart of God perfectly. People, whether intentionally or unintentionally, can hurt each other with the banner of the gospel to justify their choices or behaviors. And recognize that there are some things that maybe a woman’s been told.

Maybe she’s witnessed, maybe she’s experienced, maybe she’s been raised up in systems, all these kinds of things that don’t necessarily reflect the heart of God. So often there is this sense that whether it’s the husband or ex-husband who’s the abuser. Often women receive advice, and it’s well meaning in abuse or post separation abuse. But sometimes the advice is, you be the best you can be, and this person will change.

Biblically, the word says God hates abuse. He hates it. In Proverbs 6, you can read through there. It says there are seven things God hates, and it lists off lying lips and hands that shed blood, and all these things. That if you look at them, they are the behaviors of an abuser.

Anne: Adultery, lust.

Post Separation Abuse: Biblical Teachings On Abuse

Mykell: There’s a passage, and I’m going to mess it up right now because it’s not sitting in front of me, but I believe it’s in 2nd Timothy 1. Paul says to Timothy, in the last days, people will be lovers of self. They’re going to be abusive. They’re going to look like they have godliness, that they’re going to portray godliness, but be totally lacking its power. And that we should avoid such people.

Those are pretty clear statements to say that you need to get away from somebody who’s abusive, someone who is using spiritual means to manipulate other people.

And Paul thought it was so obvious and so dangerous that he thought to write to Timothy about it. And so we should take that same warning. With a community of believers, there’s vulnerability, and with that comes manipulation from people who would use it for selfish gain.

So the intention in our communities should be to offer safety and vulnerability, and to ensure that we are clear about rooting out what would take advantage of that. That’s not always the message that people receive that are in abusive type of circumstances.

Anne: In the church, when you talk about evil, or you talk about wolves in sheep’s clothing. You’re thinking about it as someone outside the church who’s trying to lure you away from the church. Or trying to influence you to not live the commandments. And it’s so infrequent that anyone addresses evil in the church. Or in your own home.

Recognizing Evil

Mykell: Yeah, and the Bible says Satan will masquerade as an angel of light. We need to recognize that. Yes, can there be people from the outside trying to come in and infiltrate the inside? 100%, but do they also exist on the inside? Also, yes, 100%.

Anne: Right, and it might be in your own home.

Mykell: Mm hmm, that’s right. We have to recognize, and Jesus goes through the steps in Matthew 18. We are called to see it, call it what it is, and we’re called to move ourselves away from that and get to safety. That is a biblical way of handling an abusive situation. Your life is precious to God, and all that is designed to keep you very much fixed in the center of his love and protection for you.

There’s only so much you can do to walk with somebody when they are resistant. They don’t want to see the truth, that we’re called to move ourselves away from that, so that they can walk in their own path. God desires safety for his people, does desire them to flourish. He desires each woman in this instance to become the woman he had designed her to be, and not sacrifice that for the sake of a person who is not willing to turn their lives over.

Anne: They’re essentially sacrificing it to evil almost. And women think of it as sacrificing themselves to something better, because they’re trying to protect their families. But the reality is they’re not sacrificing themselves to something better. They’re sacrificing themselves to abuse, which is not the better way.

Calling Out & Separating From Wickedness

Mykell: Calling it evil is so important. If the Bible says God hates it, we should hate it. If it says it’s evil, we should call it evil. It’s not a bad behavior. bad manners, or short temper. It’s evil. All of these things are considered abuse.

Anne: The scriptures don’t say abuser, the scriptures use the word wicked. I’m loving that word.

Mykell: Right, in Proverbs often you’ll see the word wicked, mocker, sometimes fool. Proverbs uses a handful of different words to describe people who do these things. But in all these instances, it says to get away. It says if you rebuke a mocker, they’re going to abuse you. So that says you’re not going to have a reasonable conversation with this person. Sometimes your separation, your distance, your movement away from this person is the communication.

It’s certainly meant for you to gain some distance and safety, because it’s much more likely they’re going to influence you than you’re going to influence them.

Anne: We suffer from betrayal trauma, which changes the way we think, changes our brains, changes our chemistry in our bodies. So many women suffer from health problems and depression. It’s a serious issue. Thank you so much for coming on today’s episode.

Have clergy or therapists pushed you toward forgiving abuse? Here’s why that’s so damaging.

Before you discover the truth about forgiving abuse, confirm it’s abuse by taking our free emotional abuse quiz to find out.

Forgiveness vs. Reconciliation (They’re Not The Same Thing)

Betrayal Trauma Recovery is inter-paradigm. Religious and non-religious victims can accept that reconciliation is not only unnecessary, but inadvisable in working toward the process of forgiving abuse.

Forgiveness does not mean:

• Staying in a relationship with your abuser
• Spending time with your abuser
• Accepting responsibility for your abuser’s choices
• Continuing to associate with your abuser’s family and friends
• Continuing to associate or attend community or religious services in the same location as your abuser
• Staying legally married to your abuser even if you are living separately

Forgiveness & “Turning The Other Cheek”

When clergy and religious therapists counsel women to “turn the other cheek” by forgiving abuse or relinquish judgment against their abusers, they are putting victims in danger. “Turning the other cheek” simply doesn’t make sense in the context of abuse and betrayal:

Instead, victims can hold abusers accountable by:

• Reporting crime
• Distancing themselves from abuse

Forgiveness Is About Justice – Not Mercy

Ultimately, forgiving abuse is about justice, not mercy. Trauma victims can find solace in accepting that it isn’t their responsibility to grant mercy to their abusers – it’s their duty to hold abusers accountable for the abuse. While this may feel daunting, victims can take small steps to seek safety.

Choosing to believe in natural consequences while taking empowering steps toward safety is the process of forgiveness.

Harmful societal scripts that place the burden of forgiving abuse and reconciliation on traumatized victims can be difficult to work through. Victims need a safe place to process trauma and create healthier ways to begin healing. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY and find the community you need to help you on your healing journey today.

Transcript: The Truth About Forgiving Abuse

Anne: I am honored to have Valerie M. Hudson on today’s episode. She is a distinguished University professor. And holds the George H. W. Bush Chair in the Department of International Affairs in the George Bush School of Government and Public Service at Texas A & M University. Where she directs the program on women, peace and security.

She is the co founder of the women’s stats project. You can find that at womenstats.org. And the author of Sex and World Peace, The Hillary Doctrine, The First Political Order and Bear Branches. In 2009, Foreign Policy Magazine listed Valerie as one of the world’s top 100 Global Thinkers. Welcome Valerie.

Valerie: Oh, it’s delightful to be here.

Anne: She has many wonderful accomplishments and books she’s written. So I encourage everyone to look at her body of work. It’s amazing, and I’m so grateful for that. Valerie will talk about her article, Forgiveness of Abuse and Atrocity: What It Is and What It Is Not, (A Guide for the Perplexed Christian Woman). She sent this over to me. It hits on every concern that abuse victims face when confronted with this question of forgiving abuse.

Maybe a therapist or family member, or maybe clergy, told her, you need to forgive kind of advice or counsel. It is actually hurtful or harmful to the victim, rather than being helpful. So to start Valerie, thank you for writing this. It’s incredible.

Valerie’s Inspiration For Writing The Article

Valerie: Believe it or not, I wrote this article in a 72 hour period following the birth of one of my children. It overcame me in a rush, and I could not help but put pen to paper. So I would hold my little baby in one arm and nurse him while typing away with my other hand. I look back on that period, which is amazing. And realized that my spirit had put together many of the lessons I had learned prior to that time paid for in blood and tears.

If I put them together in one monstrous essay, you would interview me one day. And perhaps to help others by some of the knowledge I gained.

Anne: Well, I appreciate it. I already posted it on our Facebook page, and I’m trying to get the word out to everyone. Like read this, read this! It is so incredible, so you talk about forgiving abuse and atrocity. How are abuse and atrocity different from other offenses? In forgiving abuse?

Valerie: Yes, I really think that if we’re going to talk about forgiveness. We have to understand that to forgive slights, to forgive microaggressions, those kinds of things are a very different kettle of fish. Than forgiving the person who has raped you, the person who has murdered your child.

I think it’s important that while we are enjoined to freely forgive those who have slighted us. We may one day slight others ourselves. That it’s different with atrocity, because we’re never going to murder somebody. We’re never going to rape somebody. And these are the deep, deep harms that attack the soul of a human being. And in that case, I think we need to tease out what forgiving abuse means.

Abuse Is A Profound Betrayal Of Trust

Anne: One of the definitions you have for abuse in this article is a profound betrayal of trust, which I talk about on the podcast all the time. That years and years of psychological abuse surrounding someone’s exploitative materials use. Where they’re living a double life, gaslighting their spouse and dismissing her concerns. Lying is emotionally abusive. That is profound psychological and emotional abuse surrounding perhaps their pornography use or maybe the affairs they have.

And you talk about this several times in this article. Down at the bottom, you actually give an example of someone abandoning their family due to a So? Before we talk about the forgiving abuse element of this, which I want to spend a lot of time on.

Can you talk about why the world doesn’t see psychological abuse or emotional abuse, gaslighting, or betrayal in forms of living a double life with affairs and pornography as abuse? Why do you think the general population, even people in the church, don’t see that as a serious form of abuse? And recommend forgiving abuse.

Valerie: I think males tend to be those disinclined to see that serious abuse. I think females tend to be those inclined to see it as serious abuse. I’m not a psychologist, so all I can say is that sometimes men have a greater ability to compartmentalize. And say yeah, I watched pornography. But hey, I still love you. That all makes sense for them.

I think for most women, the viewing of exploitative material is clearly an infidelity. It’s a betrayal of trust, and it is deeply wounding. And there is complexity involved in forgiving abuse.

The Truth About Forgiving Abuse: The Legacy of Male Perspectives In Institutions

Valerie: Many of our religious and secular institutional leaders are men with male perspectives. And I think we see this legacy in our rape laws and other kinds of things. Where questions like, well, what were you wearing or what time of night was it? Or had you been drinking? Somehow excuse the rape, explain it, make it seem more natural that she was raped. And that is a real male perspective on things. So I see this as a legacy of the dominance of our religious and secular spaces by men.

Anne: This is when it’s important for women to understand how to recognize victim blaming. I want to quote you, this is from her article. “The betrayed spouse is told to ‘make peace’ for the sake of the children, but it is often a peace based on lies and concealment of abuse.” And, this happens with use as well. When people are told, well, make sure you don’t tell anyone about it, support his recovery, keep it quiet. You’re going to be the worst sinner if you don’t end up forgiving.

https://youtube.com/shorts/ixVDYZDSVfc

So let’s transition into talking about forgiving abuse and your definition of forgiveness. I had never even considered before reading this article, but once I read it, I was like, yes, this makes sense. I totally get it, because I was told so many times. Why aren’t you just forgiving abuse? And so many members of our community have when we continue to hold boundaries for our own safety.

Rather than recognizing that this abuse is still ongoing, I need to hold these boundaries for my own safety. People are like, what’s wrong with you? Why are you holding a boundary? You should be forgiving. because that’s what Christ says. So can you tell your definition of forgiveness?

Valerie’s Definition Of Forgiveness

Valerie: I distinguish between forgiveness and reconciliation. Forgiveness is between you and God. Reconciliation is between you, God, and the abuser. And I think this is where the confusion comes in. I think people use the term forgiveness when they mean reconciliation. They’re confusing these two concepts. So what I ask people to do in this essay is understand that forgiving abuse means something that happens between you and God, not the abuser.

And what happens between you and God is that you choose sincerely to have faith in God’s justice, not God’s mercy. But God’s justice, and you can do that without involving the abuser at all. In fact, it has nothing to do with the abuser, and because it has nothing to do with the abuser. Forgiving abuse does not mean that you have to return to a relationship with your abuser. It does not mean you have to lower your barriers to an abuser and invite them back into your life.

It doesn’t mean you have to keep silent about the abuser or hide their abuse from the authorities. No, no, no, forgiveness means you believe in God’s justice, and you are not prepared to exact justice yourself on the abuser. But you will leave it to God, and you will leave it to civil authorities. And you will not stoke hatred in your heart, because you so sincerely believe justice will be done.

Anne: I’ve been listening to the Psalms lately when I can’t sleep, and they put me back to sleep. And I appreciate you bringing this up in this article about David and writing the Psalms about the justice of God.

Forgiveness Is About Believing In God’s Justice

Anne: Thinking of forgiveness, you said this. I’m going to quote you again. Your article says, “Forgiveness is not about believing in God’s mercy. Forgiveness is about believing in God’s justice.” And that speaks to my heart and the heart of all these victims, because that is one of the most difficult things to wrap your head around. You’ve seen these atrocities. You’ve been a victim of abuse, and it seems like you can’t get help.

Women might go to a therapist, or to clergy, or even in the court system right now. They’re trying to get help, and they’re not finding it. And so believing that God will hold them accountable and that they will have to pay in some way. Or that justice is served in God’s own way and in his own time. There is such a different view of forgiving abuse, because you can let that go to God and hopefully live in peace in the moment, and I just appreciated that.

Thank you so much. I think that definition is perfect, especially in this context. Have you had any pushback from this definition from people?

Valerie: No, actually not. I think it’s found its way mostly to women who have been abused. And I think their reaction is pretty much the same as yours. If I understood this before. I wouldn’t beat myself up for the fact that I didn’t feel good about going back to an abusive relationship. We hear folks quoting to us from the Bible. It’s up to you to forgive 70 times seven, or you remain the greater sin.

Forgiving Abuse: It Does Not Involve Reconciliation

Valerie: That changes completely when we understand that what God is talking about is a sincere belief in God’s justice and injustice. Civil authorities will administer it. We root it out of our own heart. We would otherwise be tempted to use the sword against our abuser. People are, I think, liberated by the notion that forgiving abuse does not involve reconciliation.

And that in fact, it may be part of one’s duty to God to not reconcile when there is a chance that reconciliation will harm innocence. I think it really changes things.

Anne: One of the things you talk about in the article is reporting to civil authorities. Husbands have raped many of our podcast listeners, so wife rape. Their husbands have lied and cheated them with money. Husbands commit actual crimes. Women don’t feel comfortable enough to report it. Because civil authorities chances of serving justice are very low.

Women have a hard time getting justice because they are married to the person. So victims consider these things when they’re thinking about reporting. Wives can’t report to authorities in cases of psychological abuse or emotional abuse. And clergy may not believe them. Do you have anything to say about that scenario? When it comes to believing in the justice of God and forgiving abuse. When we exhaust all earthly means, and there seems to be no earthly justice?

Valerie: Oh, I’m glad you asked that question. And I think it’s a compelling question. As we were talking about just a few minutes ago, I think our legal system is a legacy of male perspectives on these kinds of things. I mean, it took until the 1970s for the criminalization of marital rape. People simply assumed there was no rape before that. They were married.

Creating Distance From The Abuser

Valerie: Rape could not occur. He had his conjugal rights to use her body as he saw fit. Sometimes women will not count on civil authorities to administer earthly justice, though they can always count on God to administer heavenly justice. And I think that’s where the healing comes.

But in cases like that, to be perfectly honest with you, I think it’s incumbent upon the woman to begin to create a distance from the abuser. God does not want you to be abused. And I think it is incumbent upon a Christian disciple to escape an abusive relationship.

Anne: I want to talk about some of these, let’s say, misapplied Christian principles in the context of forgiving abuse.

But before that, you quoted a scripture that I often quote to victims, and it’s Alma 5:60. I love the scripture. I quote it all the time to victims, and it says, “and now I say unto you that the good shepherd doth call after you. And if you will hearken unto his voice, he will bring you into his fold, and ye are his sheep, and he commandeth you that you suffer no ravenous wolf to enter among you. That ye may not be destroyed.”

I love that scripture. He’s commanding us to be safe, not abused. He’s commanding us to step away from that. So let’s talk about some of these often used misapplied Christian principles in forgiving abuse.

Turn the Other Cheek Misapplied

Anne: The first one being “turn the other cheek.” So can you talk about how that principle does not work in this context?

Valerie: One of the problems I think is that we are not living in the same time as Jesus Christ. And as a result, I think there are many things about the context of the turn the other cheek that are so different. So for example, one Christian theologian, James Talmadge had this to say. “Of old the principle of retaliation had been tolerated. By which one who suffered injury could exact or inflict a penalty of the same nature as the offense.”

“Thus an eye was demanded for the loss of an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for life. In contrast, Christ taught that men should rather suffer than do evil. To the extent of submission without resistance under certain implied conditions. His forceful illustrations that if one were smitten on the cheek, he should turn the other.”

“That if a man took another’s coat by process of law, the loser should also give his cloak. That if one was pressed into service to carry another’s burden a mile, he should willingly go two miles. One should readily give or lend his ass. These are not to be construed,” Talmadge says, “as commanding abject subservience to unjust demands. Nor as an abrogation of the principle of self protection.”

“Jesus directs these instructions primarily to the apostles. Who are devoted to the work of the kingdom, to the exclusion of all other interests. In their ministry, it would be better to suffer material loss or personal indignity at the hands of wicked oppressors. Than bring about an impairment of efficiency in a hindrance of work through resistance and contention.”

Forgiving Abuse: Misinterpretation Of Smiting the Other Cheek

Valerie: So no, if a man has molested your 10 year old, do not offer your six year old as well. If your husband has broken your left ribs, don’t offer him your right ribs to break. If a rapist enters your home to attack you and you shoot him dead, that’s not a failure to turn the other cheek. I think that if a Christian woman gets on her knees and asks God, God will tell her in no uncertain terms. No, I do not want you to be abused. That’s not what this example of smiting the other cheek means.

Anne: We know divorce feels terrible, and it doesn’t feel right. We know abuse isn’t right. The feelings confuse many Christian women. I think they often think the Spirit is telling them: No, it’s not right to divorce. Because they feel so terrible and don’t feel peace. And to women in that situation, I always want to say it’s the abuse talking. It’s this fog of abuse and manipulation that is talking.

When you face abuse, when you have to confront it, when you have to make your way out of it, there’s no part of that that’s going to feel peaceful, even forgiving abust. You might have moments of peace where you’re doing the right thing, even though you feel terrible. When something is so atrocious, I love that you use the word atrocity. It is not going to feel good.

There’s not going to be this like, Oh, I feel so good. This is perfect. I’m happy. This is fine. I’m making my way out of abuse.

God’s Will Against Abuse

Anne: It’s going to feel miserable until you can make it out of the fog. You shouldn’t let the misery and horror of realizing you’re abused stop you from making your way to safety and forgiving abuse.

Valerie: That’s absolutely right. You said that is so well. It boggles the mind that one would believe such a horrible thing about God. That God wants you to stay in an abusive relationship. I opened my essay by talking about a true story of an acquaintance. Her husband would beat her up, and she would go to the hospital. And she would lie and say she’d fallen down the stairs or something.

And her husband would say, don’t tell them. I’m so sorry. I’ll never do it again. And she would return to him. Then he beat her so badly she was in a coma. He was put in jail and her children were put in foster care. So tell me how God wanted that situation? Did God want her in a coma? Did God want these children in foster care? I don’t think so.

If you really love your abuser, the worst thing you could do to their soul is let them keep abusing you. Let that sink in for a minute. That is the worst thing, because they are on the path to hell. Beating and abusing you is part of their progression to hell.

Anne: Another Christian principle misapplied in this context is, love your enemies and do good to them that despitefully use you. Any more to say about that one? And forgiving abuse?

Valerie: This is applicable if someone has insulted you or done it with some sort of microaggression. I think when we talk about abuse and atrocity, these are issues that imperil your own salvation.

Scriptural Guidance On Dealing With Offenders

Valerie: For example, not to fight scripture with scripture, but another scripture from Matthew, Jesus Christ talking. About forgiving abuse not reconciliation.. “Moreover, if thy brother shall trespass against thee, and then won’t change his ways, tell it to the church. And if he neglects to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.” Remember that Jews didn’t have dealings with heathens and publicans.

This means to put distance between you and the abusive person. Then here’s the one from Mark, which is one of my favorites. “Therefore, if thy hand offend thee, cut it off, or if thy brother offend thee and confess not and forsake not, he shall be cut off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed than having two hands to go into hell. It is better for thee to enter into life without thy brother than for thee and thy brother to be cast into hell. “

“And again, if thy foot offend thee, cut it off. For he that is thy standard by whom thou walkest, if he become a transgressor, he shall be cut off. It is better for thee to enter halt into life than having two feet to be cast into hell. Therefore, let every man stand or fall by himself, not for another, not trusting another. If thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee, to show thee light, becomes a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.”

“It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire. For it is better that thyself should be saved, than to be cast into hell with thy brother.”

Forgiving Abuse: Gaslighting & Manipulation Techniques

Valerie: This is Christ, our Savior, speaking very plainly here. He doesn’t want you to travel the road to hell. And if that means cutting off thy hand, or cutting off thy foot, or plucking out thy eye, which seems extreme and painful, I don’t think that we’re really being a disciple of Christ.

Anne: This leads perfectly into the classic gaslighting or manipulation technique. When people confront abusers about their abuse. And they don’t want to take accountability, be honest, humble, or submit to God’s will. They begin to say things like, well, if you just loved me. Don’t you love me? You would be patient if you loved me. And you would wait while I got help. And I’m going to go to therapy. It’s just this grooming phase where they act repentant or like they love you.

They’re saying, if you don’t allow me this, because if you don’t tolerate this while I “get better” or while I work on it. Then you’re not being Christlike, because you don’t have unconditional love. And you’re not forgiving abuse. I think the church misapplies the unconditional love idea in general. Can you talk about that?

Valerie: Oh, that’s absolutely right. Yeah, I think we’ve all heard that phrase unconditional love. But you know what? It doesn’t appear in the scriptures at all. And we know that Christian theologian Russell M. Nelson has said that divine love can be called perfect. It is infinite, enduring and universal, it can not correctly be characterized as unconditional. That’s because God loves all his sons and daughters and wants them to gain salvation and eternal life and live with him forever.

God’s Conditional Love

Valerie: Absolutely, so in that sense, God’s love is universal, alright? However, it’s also true that if you’re headed off on the path to hell, God is there is also true. He’s not going to be happy about that and will not shower blessings upon you. He will withdraw his spirit, and he may even send you chastening punishments. But that’s actually love, isn’t it? Because God doesn’t actually want you to end up in hell. So he’s going to try to show you that this is a terrible, terrible path to be on.

So, God’s love is universal. But if we’re talking about love in terms of loving favor and presence, God’s love is definitely conditional, right? Absolutely conditional. And I think that means we should emulate that. Which is, if your abuser says you need to stay with me while I’m going through this treatment program. You could say, no that wouldn’t be helpful to you. Because you would be tempted to abuse me. So why don’t I remove myself from the situation?

You go through the rehab program, bring forth fruits of repentance, and I’ll be praying for you the whole time. And then sincerely mean it. Sincerely pray and fast for them. But you’re not doing anything loving. When you allow your abuser access to you, so that you can be abused again. That is not a loving thing to do to this person, who is clearly marching towards hell and not heaven.

Anne: I want to say, you don’t have to set boundaries from a place of love. If you’re like, I don’t feel love for them, so I guess I can’t hold this boundary. You can do things from a safety standpoint, this is the truth about forgiving abuse.

Setting Boundaries For Safety

Anne: Don’t let someone manipulate you into thinking the only way to set a boundary or take a step towards safety. Is if you feel compassion toward your abuser. You don’t have to feel compassion, love, or anything to set a boundary. I’ve said this in another episode. If you witnessed a crime of a car hijacking, no one on the street next to you would say, oh, don’t call the police yet. Do you feel love for that carjacker? Are you doing this from a place of compassion?

Because unless you call the police from a place of compassion and love, you shouldn’t call the police. No, it’s okay. You can just set the boundary.

Valerie: And remember that God teaches us in a sense what love is like. Which is that when there is love, and that is accompanied by trust and respect, and all those wonderful things that should be part of love. Then that feels like you want to hug the other person. You want to love the other person, et cetera, et cetera. But remember, that love can also exist in the situation where you are not feeling like you want to be with them, or forgiving abuse.

So let’s not confuse feeling soft, warm, and intimate towards somebody with loving them. For example, if one of my children hurts another child, I will say, look, I love you, but you’ve done something wrong here. And so you will have to change. You will have to do some restitution here. In the moment where I say, look, you’re going to have to repent. There’s going to be a punishment. You’ll have to make restitution. Can I still say I love them? Yes, yes I can.

Forgiving Abuse: Tough Love & God’s Example

Valerie: But let’s not confuse feeling warm and soft towards someone with loving them. Because we can do tough love. God does tough love to his children all the time.

Anne: When the abuser uses that love word to gaslight or manipulate, they’re using it to say, you have to love me in the way I want to be loved. You have to overlook my bad behavior and tolerate my abuse. If you’re doing something else, you must not love me. But victims need to realize that’s just abuse. It’s not, am I being a good Christian? Am I loving him enough? That type of talk is abusive and only meant to manipulate you into tolerating bad behavior.

It’s not meant to actually bring you closer together.

Valerie: That’s absolutely right. And I’m so glad that You have mentioned that.

Anne: I was talking to a victim, and she said I want to see him as God sees him. He is a child of God. And I said, well, read Alma 5, the wicked are seen as children of hell by God. Other places in the scriptures, it talks about don’t cast your pearls before swine, or like a dog to his vomit, or like a sow in the mire. And in my mind, helping her realize that he is wicked. And that this wickedness was going to harm her would get her to safety more quickly.

Valerie: You know, I think that’s a really good point. I would feel no compunction about divorcing a child of God clearly on the path to hell. But I do think there’s a sense in which we must remember their humanity or our own humanity is lost.

The Wicked Are Cast Out

Anne: With those animal references like don’t cast your pearls before swine or like a dog to his vomit or references of someone being a child of hell. Being able to say the fruits of this person’s actions right now are dangerous. And they’re not healthy to me. I’m going to keep myself safe and observe from a super safe distance. In the scriptures, it does not say, and they were wicked and so we set their therapy appointments and we made sure that we dressed up and wore lipstick.

It says, and they were wicked and cast out. If someone continues to exhibit the fruits of wickedness, then like that Alma 5 scripture, He commands us to cast them out.

Valerie: That’s brilliant.

Anne: Many women in this situation hope their abuser can see the light. What are the types of things they need to look for to see if the abuser truly has repented if he’s truly changed?

Valerie: Yeah, the abuser must fully complete all the steps of repentance sincerely and bring forth fruit meet for repentance. And some crimes may be so awful that full completion of these requirements probably cannot even occur in this life. So how would you recognize sincere repentance? First of all, a recognition that you’ve abused. I think many abusers are simply unable to even recognize that they committed any sin or crime, and will blame their victims for whatever abuse happened.

I think abuse is almost predicated on someone lacking any sense of personal responsibility at all. So absolutely a recognition that one has abused. Secondly, sincere remorse, great suffering always accompanies a recognition that you have abused someone. But I also know that some abusers can be insincerely remorseful.

Sincere Repentance With Restitution

Valerie: And so that I think is where, you know, uh, being in touch with the spirit helps. If you don’t think that person is sincere, they’re probably not. And it would probably be better for you to assume they’re not sincere. Confession, confessing to civil authorities, confessing to ecclesiastical authorities. If they can’t even do that, then it’s not sincere repentance. Restitution, that’s a big one where abusers will say, just forgive me, I won’t do it anymore.

But you know, a sense of restitution. What kind of restitution would help make up for what you’ve done? Can you help repay the victim for what you’ve taken from them? And it’s possible that restitution cannot be made in this life, you know, for murder and so forth. We cannot make restitution in this life, but the abusers should be searching for a way to make that restitution. And then finally, true change. A repentant abuser will not be slipping back into abuse again.

And if they do, and insist that you forgive them all over again, the abuser has not sincerely gone through the repentance process.

Anne: Or that was just grooming. Where they were putting on a show to groom you. When you talk about confession, I know of many stories where the abuser talks to their clergy and says, hey, I have been abusing my wife. I’ve been gaslighting her. And the clergy will say, oh no, you haven’t. No, that’s not abuse. Or they’ll say I’ve been using pornography, and that’s abuse to my wife. And they’ll be like, no, you’re not.

Forgiving Abuse: Bystanders Enabling Abusers

Anne: Or I’m a addict. I’ve been using it a lot and lying about it. No, you’re not an addict. So obviously that is not going to help the abuser. Usually they only tell a partial truth. When there’s one rat, there’s 50. And so if clergy takes that partial truth and is like, you’re a good guy. What are you talking about? Instead of saying, whoa, this is serious. We need to see the whole iceberg here. We need to ferret out all the lies he’s told.

Anne: Can you talk about why bystanders have such a difficult time supporting victims and in many cases end up accidentally enabling the abuser?

Valerie: Again, in all the cases you’ve just mentioned, I believe the ecclesiastical authority was male. I think men are prone to give other men the benefit of the doubt, rather than other women. I do know one thing, that those things are heinous in the sight of God. That God will judge those ecclesiastical authorities with clarity and exquisite precision. So I think we need to believe in God’s justice for some of them.

There was a terrible old legacy in my own church. which suggested that victims of rape needed to repent themselves. Because they were no longer chaste. And fortunately, my church has changed on this and given out very plain instruction that victims of sexual abuse are innocent. And that no one can take their chastity and innocence from them, that they hold it still. So I think that was an important change.

Ecclesiastical Authorities & Abuse

Valerie: I’m just aghast to hear what you said. Because as an ecclesiastical authority, I certainly would want to talk to the person who had been abused to figure out what I was dealing with here. Predators are skillful at gaslighting, not only their victims, but also gaslighting authorities.

Anne: You quoted, Christian theologian, Richard G. Scott in your article. And he said, “Remember that predators are skillful at cultivating public appearance of piety to mask their despicable acts. Recognize that it is unlikely the perpetrator will confess his depraved acts. Painstakingly assure that every individual suffering from abuse receives appropriate help.” We have heard so many stories of the woman going in. She talks about the abuse, the clergy says, Oh, that’s awful.

That’s terrible. I’ll help you. Let me call him in. So he calls him into the office. And then after he hears “his side of the story,” not realizing it’s all lies and manipulation is like, oh, I see what’s happening now. She’s controlling. She’s not doing what she’s supposed to do. It’s her problem. I get it now. You’re not an abuser. And so even though so many churches have policies that say we do not tolerate abuse because clergy are not educated about abuse.

They’re not sure what to look for, they can’t recognize that that type of gaslighting to the clergy is not only abusive to the clergy, but also just piling on the abuse to the victim. In that thinking, okay, there’s two sides of the story, and the truth must be somewhere in the middle. They need to realize that a victim tells the truth.

Training Clergy On Cognitive Biases

Anne: And the abuser manipulates and lies. So the truth isn’t somewhere in the middle. There’s an absolute truth here, and they need to figure out what that is. Rather than believing a manipulator and liar.

Valerie: I’m so glad you said that, because I believe many people make that mistake. They hear that one person says A, one person says C, so the truth is B. That’s not it. In abusive situations, the truth is probably either A or C. And that we do a disservice. to victims in abuse situations when we assume there’s some sort of middle ground of truth when dealing with abuse. That is so important. And I hope churches are training their clergy in these kinds of cognitive biases.

Being male, believing that truth will be the middle ground between two counts. Unless they are, one of the most important things that can be done, and this certainly would be revolutionary in my own church, is that women need to sit in on these discussions also. The male perspective needs to be balanced by the female perspective, then I think it needs balancing in the case where we decide where truth lies.

Anne: Absolutely, I always recommend that women report their husband’s abuse to clergy, either psychological, emotional, or their exploitative materials use. They take another woman with them who understands abuse into that meeting, that they do not go in alone. We’ve seen so many times that clergy will further abuse that victim. By saying, oh, well, are you having sex with them or are you making dinner or what are you doing?

Take another woman with them to ensure she is not further harmed in that interaction. Which is happening all over the place in every denomination and religion.

Forgiving Abuse: The Prodigal Son Misapplied

Anne: We have women from every faith paradigm here, and it’s happening everywhere. So the last Christian principle misapplied here, in the context of abuse, is this prodigal son concept. Where, if you don’t forgive, meaning reconcile, they’re not talking about actual forgiveness here or forgiving abuse.

They’re saying, if you don’t reconcile, if you don’t make sure you kill the fatted calf and welcome this guy home and give him hugs, the greater sin lies with you. Can you talk about why this principle is misapplied, and when it’s misapplied, it continues to put victims in harm’s way?

Valerie: Oh, that’s great. Let’s look at the parable itself. Now, we can’t tell from the scriptures whether the prodigal son was abusing others or simply living some sort of riotous life. Nevertheless, while the son lived this riotous existence, the father in the parable didn’t chase his son. He didn’t offer to have him live at home and be provided for and enabled while he continued this type of life.

Instead, the father waited in silence. We’re not told how long he had to wait. Maybe he had to wait for years. We are not told that there was even any contact between the father and the son during this time. But when the son turned around, when he repented of his foolishness. When he did retrace his steps back home, wanting only to be a servant and not to claim back his privileges. When that day came, his father ran out to meet him and embrace him.

The father even held a big party to rejoice over his son’s return. Now, was the prodigal son restored to all his privileges, at least in this life? I don’t think so. I’d venture he probably wasn’t trusted with money anymore.

Wait From A Distance To Observe

Valerie: And he’d spent his inheritance. I don’t think the father carved out a separate inheritance for him. So even after sincere repentance, there may be some continuing restrictions or limitations. Based on a knowledge of the abuser’s weaknesses. But while the son is doing wrongfully, that love waited silently and at a distance . Not in a state of enabling or overlooking the bad behavior or running after the abusive person.

I think we need to see the parable of the prodigal son for what it’s telling us. You will have to wait at a distance. Not have a full fledged relationship with someone involved in self destruction or other destruction.

Anne: It shows his repentance, because he was willing to give up his “entitlements.” He’s willing to come back as a servant. If an abuser is unwilling to give up his entitlements, he feels entitled perhaps to intimacy. Maybe he feels entitled to lying, or maybe he feels entitled to a hot meal, whatever it is he feels entitled to, that he’s not willing to give up.

Like, I won’t be abusive, but you have to have it with me every Wednesday. Or I’m not going to be abusive, but you need to make sure you lose 10 pounds. Or I’m not going to be abusive, but you need to treat me with respect, which means she won’t maybe ask him questions about where he’s been or what he’s doing. That lack of willingness to give up their entitlements is exemplified by the prodigal son willing to give up those entitlements.

Valerie: Yes. That’s a brilliant point. He’s willing to give up it all, eating the pig’s scraps. He’s willing to be a servant and not a son anymore.

Valerie’s Work On World Peace

Valerie: That’s a form of restitution, isn’t it? To give up one’s entitlement. I think that’s a brilliant way to see it.

Anne: You’ve written whole books on this, and you’ve given speeches. You have this concept that world peace is available if the sexes. If men and women can get along, and if abuse is eradicated.

I hate to ask you to summarize all this body of work that you have done. But could you perhaps just leave us with this idea that peace within homes and peace between husbands and wives is a precursor to world peace? I think it is so interesting. And I’d love to leave our audience with your ideas on this.

Valerie: Oh, you bet, absolutely. In fact, I wrote a book that just came out this year. It’s called The First Political Order, How Sex Shapes Governance and National Security Worldwide. So if you would like the extended version, please pick up that book. But yeah, the first political order in any society is the sexual political order. It is the foundation for all human societies.

Sometimes I ask my students to think of themselves as video game designers. And I say, I’m just going to give you two parameters, go make me a game. One is that within the society there are roughly two equal groups. And number two is that unless these two groups cooperate, there is no second round, everyone dies.

And they say, well, you haven’t told us enough. They say, are these two groups like equals, or is one superior or one inferior? Who does the decision-making for the whole group? Is it one of the groups or both groups? How are conflicts resolved? By violence or compromise?

Forgiving Abuse: Government Grant About Evidence

Valerie: And who’s got access to the valuable resources? Is it basically one of the groups, or is it both of the groups? And I say, yep, that’s exactly right. Those are all political questions. And how any society answers those questions, in a sense, establishes the first political order. And that first political order will shape everything else that arises within that society. A first political order based on the subordination of women will be unstable, violent, corrupt, exploitative, and autocratic.

Why? Because it’s built on a first political order at the level of every household in society. That’s domestic instability, domestic violence, domestic terror, domestic corruption, domestic exploitation, and domestic autocracy. It couldn’t be any other way. All right, so what your first political order is will determine what your society looks like in terms of violence and governance, and so forth.

And there’ll be many other spillover effects. If you’ve created gender tasks so that perhaps women are responsible for safeguarding people’s health within the family, then if you subordinate women. You’re going to undercut the health of women, not only children, but also men. If you’ve gendered a task where women are responsible for making sure there’s food on the table for everybody each day. When you disempower women, that’s going to lead to food insecurity.

So there are many different ramifications of a subordinative first political order. We received a four year, 1. 3 million grant from the U.S. Department of Defense in 2014. To look and see if there was empirical evidence what we were saying was true. That the subordination of women at household level led to worse nation state outcomes. In terms of violence, governance, terrorism, food insecurity, and economic performance, and you name it.

Results Of Our Study

Valerie: And so we did. It was a Herculean task, but we were able to examine over 160 different outcome variables on nation states. We were able to show that the subordination of women, even when controlling for other alternative hypotheses, was critically determinative in how poorly a nation would be on these outcomes.

And so I think it’s true, is that what you do to your women, you do to your nation. And if you curse your women, you’re also choosing to curse your nation. This is fully in line with what I understand about God’s plan, which if God’s plan was an equal partnership between men and women and an equal loving and respectful partnership.

Then to the degree that we warp that and pervert that and turn it into a subordinative hierarchy, we’ve undercut the basis of all God’s blessings. Including blessings such as peace and plenty. The Baha’i faith actually has a beautiful metaphor. They liken humankind to a bird with two wings, and they say the male wing has been strong, but the female wing has been injured and is weak.

And therefore, the bird cannot fly. So we must strengthen and heal the female wing so that the bird can soar into the heavens. And I think that’s beautiful and encapsulates everything we’re saying. Which is that abusive of households will not prosper, and that subordination of women never leads to good outcomes. Not only for women, but also for children, and also for men and whole societies. There can’t be any peace on earth until there’s peace between men and women.

Starting In Our Own Homes To Make The World Better

Anne: I love that because I’ve been saying for years, if you want to do your part, you need to start in your own home and set boundaries around the abusive behavior in your own home. And that will make the world a better place.

And also abuse and forgiving abuse is bigger than you. Societal scripting set up this situation, and religious scripting misapplied. And because of that, you’re up against a lot of misinformation and traditions that are not good for you. And if you want to make the world a better place, start with your own home.

Valerie: Amen to that.

Anne: Valerie, you are one of my heroes. I am so grateful that you came on today’s episode. You can find her book, The First Political Order, and her other book, Sex and World Peace, on our website at btr.org/books.

We discussed at length today forgiving abuse and the article Forgiveness of Abuse and Atrocity, What It Is and What It Is Not. A guide for the perplexed Christian woman. Thank you so much for coming on today, Valerie.

Valerie: My pleasure. And thank you for all the good work that you’re doing.

When a man chooses to have a secret sexual basement, he’s abusing his wife. Here’s why.

A secret sexual basement refers to a hidden life that a man conceals from his wife and children. This hidden life may involve activities such as pornography, prostitution, sexting, affairs, sexual assault, or workplace sexual harassment.

Having A “Secret Basement” Is Abuse

Here are all the abusive ways a man keeps his behaviors hidden from his wife:

• Manipulation
• Lies
• Gaslighting
• Emotional neglect

Did you know there are 19 different types of emotional abuse? Take this FREE emotional abuse quiz to determine if your husband’s secret basement qualifies as emotional abuse.

A Secret Basement Is Abusive

Even if a man is fully transparent about his activities – thus having no “secret” basement – if he feels entitled to sex, he is still abusive.

At BTR.ORG, we understand how difficult it can be to accept that your partner’s betrayal is abuse – especially if you have been conditioned to believe that your partner is addicted and needs your support to “heal”.

If your husband has been lying to you about his secret life, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY. Get the support you need.

Transcript: What Is A Secret Sexual Basement?

Anne: It’s just me today. I’m going to talk about the secret basement. A secret basement is when a man has an entire life that his wife and kids don’t know about. That life can include any or all of these things: pornography, masturbation, prostitution, sexting, affairs, sexual assault, sexual harassment at work . It could be why he’s on his phone all the time. He compartmentalizes his life so that when he’s with his wife and children, he’s an upstanding member of society.

Then he has this other part of his life. He participates in behaviors that would absolutely devastate and shock his family, colleagues and church community. The type of man who would have a secret basement is, at his core, a liar. He doesn’t live in truth, because there’s no truth in him. The character of a man with a secret basement has no respect or care for integrity. Meaning he doesn’t care if his actions are inconsistent with his statements.

He doesn’t have an integrity disorder. He just doesn’t have integrity. So this isn’t necessarily him breaking his marriage vows, although he absolutely has broken his marriage vows. It’s the opposite. Like he saw this public act of making marriage vows as a good way to deceive people about his true character. Let’s pretend for a minute that he was very genuine when he made his marriage vows, he did those honestly.

If he is honest, then when he wants to break his marriage vows. He would tell his wife, hey, I know I made these marriage vows. I now would like to break them and I’m going to break them in this way.

Traits Of Men With Secrets

Anne: I’ve never heard of a cheating man or a man who uses exploitative material doing that, not once. Why? Because a man with a secrets is a liar. That is his character. A man with a secrets is also exploitative. His character is based on the belief that he’s entitled to exploit people, especially his wife. When it comes to it, he puts his desire for it and his ability to do whatever he wants when it comes to it. Above the basic care or rights of other people. This creates emotional wounds in relationships.

So in a nutshell, a man with a secrets lies and exploits people. The addiction, industrial complex or treatment complex would like women married to men. Who have this type of character to believe it’s an addiction issue. But entitlement isn’t an impulse control problem, a brain problem, or a willpower problem. It’s just a character problem.

This is a man who thinks, I deserve to watch it. It’s my right. If you get in my way or cause me problems, complain or whine about me doing this thing that I’m entitled to do. You are taking away my rights. You’re oppressing me. I am entitled to it from you. And if you don’t give it to me or let me do it in some other way, it’s a miscarriage of justice.

And that’s how men with this type of character end up playing the victim over and over again. Because a man with this type of character will feel very oppressed when he’s not able to get what he thinks he deserves. He’s going to think you’re taking his rights away. Or oppressing him if you confront him about his use, or how he’s harmed you.

The Role Of Deception & The Impact On Wives

Anne: Men with secret basements use deception, as they use. That they don’t want their wife or anyone to know about. They’re not engaged in those behaviors because they’re an addict, although they are an addict.

They believe, at their core, entitled to that. And believe their desires are equal to air, and if they don’t “breathe,” they’re going to asphyxiate. They will feel oppressed and victimized when someone gets in their way. And his wife usually wonders where he is. Why isn’t he home for dinner? Because she doesn’t know he has this whole other life. So it’s hard for her to understand why he can’t make enough time to take out the garbage.

The character of a man with a secrets is unwilling. He’ll manipulate his wife to believe he’s unable to meet the lowest bar of decent human behavior. He wants his wife to think that his lower than lowest bar behavior is due to an addiction, disorder, childhood trauma or abusive dad. So he needs her help to educate him about how to meet the lowest bar.

He doesn’t mind being labeled an addict, and he doesn’t mind therapy because an abusive husband knows he can just lie and manipulate the therapist. But if he says his childhood trauma caused him to have a secrets, that is flat out not true. He had childhood trauma, sure. Then he had a bunch of choices to make, and he chose a deceitful character and create a secret basement.

Manipulation Is Always Involved

Anne: When he could sing Broadway musicals all day. He could eat ice cream or go for a run. It literally has nothing to do with his childhood trauma, or his abusive dad. He’s not willing to behave in a way that doesn’t harm other people. Because he doesn’t care about people. He’s not considerate of others. If he actually cared about injuring people, he would have stopped a long time ago.

But he doesn’t care about injuring other people. He just wants to do what he wants to do, and he doesn’t want anyone to bother him about it. He’s not willing to live according to principles. And due to that, you might see that he exhibits some sociopathic or antisocial patterns. These are ways of thinking and behaviors that disregard and violate the rights of others through deceit and manipulation.

One of the hallmarks of an emotional and psychological abuser. The type of man to have a secrets is that he understands sympathy and uses it to manipulate people. But he doesn’t feel sympathy toward other people. He wants his wife to feel sorry for him. So he can continue to exploit her.

The manipulation tactic of poor me. I’ve had such a hard life. All the excuses he could give sounds better than the truth. Which is: I’m going to watch it because I’m so selfish. I’m willing to harm other people to satisfy my desires.

Justifications Used For The Abusive Behavior

Anne: Just think about it this way. If I thought it was fun to stomp on my husband’s barefoot with my cowboy boots on. But he cried when I did it, I’d stop. I would stop after the first time, because I would see the look on his face. I would realize the pain it caused him. Even that example is insane. Because a decent human being would know that stomping on his barefoot in my cowboy boots would hurt. I don’t have to stomp on it or see the look on his face to realize this.

The type of man to have a secret basement. He’s never going to articulate or admit that he’s aware, educated, and conscious that he’s hurting people. And that he chooses to do it anyway. When a woman discovers her husband has secrets. It’s likely she’ll resist this type of abuse by trying to get him to get help. Thinking that that will stop him from abusing her. It takes a long time to recover from your husband’s emotional abuse. Anything that a woman does to resist this type of abuse is healthy.

Even so, we’ve found it’s not the most strategic way to safety. Because he’s been comfortable deceiving you and others this entire time. He’s known he’s been doing it the whole time. If the only time you ever hear about him wanting to change and getting treatment is after you’ve caught him using or having an affair. You can know that is manipulation. Because if he wanted to change, he would have sought help before you found it on his phone.

Religion, Deceit & More Abuse

Anne: In religious communities, when they’re caught, men with a secrets. Will profess to believe in Jesus, and repentance, and that you need to forgive. This is just more manipulation and abuse. Jesus said don’t lust after women. So, if he believed in Jesus, he would have followed his counsel before he got caught.

A man with a secrets can be accurately defined as abusive. And here’s why, to “get what he’s owed,” he’ll use abusive tactics like grooming, gaslighting, and deceit. All of which are abusive. Grooming and gaslighting to see aren’t wrong, because if you do them, you’ll go to hell. They’re wrong, because if you do them, you’re going to hurt someone else.

Let’s say a man doesn’t have a secrets. Let’s say he uses, but he’s completely honest and transparent about it. Is he abusive? The answer is yes, because he’s participating in trafficking, which is how it is produced. The definition of trafficking is the buying or selling of people for a profit. The free exploitative material is to get people hooked, so eventually they will pay for it.

If a man is willing to consume women as products, his wife will be abused. Because he believes, at his core, that women are objects. Pretty much every woman in our community who discovered her husband’s secrets. Says that her husband also exhibited the characteristics of a narcissist, sociopath, or addict.

How To Recognize Their True Character

Anne: The most important thing is realizing you’ve discovered his true character. If you’re listening and still confused about his true character. Is he really this type of abuser? I created The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop to answer this very question. Enrolling in this workshop will help you determine his true character. And help you determine if he is this type of exploitative person with that level of deception. Or if it was just a mistake because he didn’t understand.

The Living Free Workshop will also help you know what safety strategies to use as you observe. To figure out what his character is. Since I started educating people about this type of abuse. I’ve come into contact with so many therapists who use many words. They use the word disorder. They like to diagnose. And all of it sounds like word salad to me.

The more I’ve listened to all these so-called reasons or explanations of why this man is abusive. I don’t understand why they don’t just say he’s abusive. They say like, he’s got this disorder, which is abusive, and I’m like, well, why don’t you just say he’s abusive? That’s what abuse is. It’s confusing to me. It’s also confusing to me when women go to clergy for help. And they’ll suggest this is some type of sickness and health situation.

But finding out your husband has a secrets. Is totally different than your husband being diagnosed with cancer. When someone is genuinely sick, they need your support and love. But if someone uses your support and love for his own exploitative purposes, he’s deceiving you on purpose to continue dangerous behaviors. That makes him dangerous to you.

Finding Safety & Miracles

Anne: And because abusers already know what they’ve been doing. And why they’ve been communicating the way they have to deceive you. Communicating how their behavior has harmed us does not improve the situation. Because they already know, they just don’t care.

There was a time in my marriage when I had a Willy Wonka attitude about it. If I wanted the golden ticket enough, I would get it. If I wanted him to change, I could pray and have faith, and not give up hope. And miracles could happen. I believe in miracles. But I discovered that focusing on my own emotional and psychological safety created so many miracles. I am the miracle, my life is the miracle. So determining your husband’s true character is the first step on your way to a miracle.

Again, to find out more about The Living Free Workshop and how it can help you determine your husband’s character.

If you’re looking for the best betrayal trauma support group, here are five things to consider:

5 Characteristics of an Effective Betrayal Trauma Support Group 1. Can you get support quickly? And often?

At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we’ve all been through betrayal trauma and know how important it is to get the right support, right when you need it.

That’s why Betrayal Trauma Support Group Sessions meet online, every single day, multiple times, in every time zone.

Check out the Session Schedule.

2. Can you access the betrayal trauma support group anywhere?

Betrayal Trauma Support Group Sessions were designed so that you don’t need to leave your home, pay for child care, or rearrange their work schedule.

Our online group sessions eliminate the need for extra time to travel, park, extra money for gas or child care, or lengthy appointments or round-trip drive times.

You can attend a session from your bedroom, garage, or closet – whatever works best for your situation.

3. Do the support group professionals understand the true cause of betrayal trauma?

If you don’t know the cause of betrayal trauma, it’s impossible to heal. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coaches validate victims’ experiences and help women give language to their experiences.

One woman said, “After years of therapy, I was hopeless. Nothing was improving my marriage. My husband was using and lying to me.

“Then I discovered The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. It was a revelation. I began attending Betrayal Trauma Group Sessions soon after that. So the Group Sessions opened my eyes. I wasn’t alone! I’ve felt seen when I couldn’t see myself. I felt heard and empowered. I finally started to make progress toward emotional safety and healing.”

4. Is the betrayal trauma support group safe?

Because victims of abuse and betrayal deserve a comfortable and compassionate space to work through the difficult emotions and memories that accompany trauma.

Betrayal Trauma Support Group Sessions have logical, safe guidelines, crafted carefully from years of experience dealing with betrayal trauma victims. Our Support Group ensures women feel protected and safe as they participate.

5. Does the betrayal trauma support group provide accurate, high quality resources?

In addition to the betrayal trauma support group, Betrayal Trauma Recovery has:

• The Free Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast helps women throughout the world understand what betrayal trauma is and how to heal from it.
• The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop will teach you thought, boundary, communication, and message strategies to begin to make your way to emotional, and psychological safety. It also includes 13 meditations to heal you without having to make any effort. Victims of betrayal are often overwhelmed and stressed. Some aren’t able to even get out of bed some days. Feeling peace is almost impossible when you feel like your entire world is falling apart. These meditations in the workshop were written specifically for women who need immediate peace and healing.

Transcript: Women Share How They Found The Best Betrayal Trauma Support Group

Betrayal Trauma Victim #1:  Even though my husband had been unfaithful and had a problem with viewing exploitative content. Therapists looked at our issues as a “couple problem.” The multiple therapists we saw had years of experience, but they knew nothing whatsoever about betrayal trauma, integrity issues or addiction, or the emotional abuse involved.

In fact, my husband was able to successfully gaslight one therapist to the point where he told me that if I would become a, quote, safe person, my husband would quit lying to me. I bet you can guess the result

Yep, my husband lied to me again, and again, and again. It was never about me. So when I finally found BTR, my husband and I had spent over 10 years and 10,000 in and out of couples counseling. Thankfully, everything turned almost on a dime the day I read an article on gaslighting from BTR. This was one of the biggest aha moments of my entire life. It was almost as if I could hear the angel singing in the background as 26 painful years of fog began to lift.

I immediately set up a coaching appointment with one of the BTR coaches and for the first time ever found someone who got it immediately. It’s the best support for betrayal trauma. I didn’t have to convince her, educate her, or prove  a thing. She knew exactly what I was going through because she had been there, too. After years and years and thousands of dollars spent on traditional therapy, I finally found someone who understood exactly what I was going through, named it, educated me, and provided the support and contagious courage needed to become empowered to stop the abuse

Why Should I Attend Betrayal Trauma Recovery Support Group Sessions?

 Betrayal Trauma Victim #2: I remember the day that I first found BTR.

I was sitting on my back porch listening that day, desperately seeking some kind of help for my soul. I listened to Anne calling Betrayal what it really is, and acknowledging the pain and trauma that it really causes to us women. That podcast changed my life. I burst into tears of healing, validation.

Finally, someone was calling exploitative content use as betrayal. The harm that it actually is. Someone was seeing how abusive it is. Finally, someone had put together all the pieces of the puzzle and so many things finally began to make sense. It was my first moment of validation and clarity. Anne set me on my path of strength and healing right that moment because she was brave enough to share her own strength and healing.

BTR group is the most healing place a woman can possibly be after experiencing betrayal of any sort. It’s a safe, sacred, and healing space. The abuse informed and trained coaches are amazing, loving and wise, and they all remind us there is healing to be found as you navigate through this experience of betrayal trauma.

I just want to give a beg forever thank you to Anne, the Betrayal Trauma Coaches, and to BTR.

This Betrayal Trauma Support Group Changed My Life

  Betrayal Trauma Victim #3: I’m very thankful for BTR. I feel that God led me to the website when I watched my first video

on exploitative content and betrayal trauma in relationships. I am a firm believer that this is infidelity. BTR group sessions have been so instrumental in my life. I’ve been going the last four months. I can get on every day and feel immediate. Love and support and validation from the coaches .

I just can’t thank the coaches and Ann and BTR enough for helping me through this journey. I feel very positive about my life, my future. Because I know I’ll always have BTR and I know they’re gonna help me get through it.

   Betrayal Trauma Victim #4: Betrayal trauma recovery has helped me. Put the appropriate names to what I was experiencing and that would be abuse. In this group, The coaches help you feel like you are not the crazy one.

It’s So nice to know that like I’m not the only one. I just really appreciate the viewing exploitative content is abuse period because it’s so easily pushed to the side as a non-issue and it’s affecting so many really pure, noble women.

It helps me feel empowered to take the next step in my journey, whatever that step might be. I just want people to know that they’re not alone, they can listen to their intuition and by coming to BTR and sharing in a safe way, you feel more empowered after you leave the session every time.

Betrayal Trauma Support Group Sessions Helps Victims Create Safety

   Betrayal Trauma Victim #5:  BTR has been a group that has completely changed my life. It was something I didn’t even know was out there, didn’t even know that I needed, but has been a godsend. It’s life changing. The coaches are just your sister and they walk with you.

They help you all along the way. It’s also been good just to be able to watch the other ladies in here, to know that you have a group of people that completely understand where you are, what you’re going through, and even to see the progress you get inspired by their walk. To see the growth that they’ve done to now have the knowledge that we need to move forward to heal.

Whether we decide to stay or goal, BTR just really helps to heal us one step at a time and from the inside out. So I’m so appreciative of this group. It’s the best betrayal trauma resource.

   Betrayal Trauma Victim #5:   I am more than 10 years post-divorce and I discovered BTR within the last month,

I’m now hearing words that my soul has longed to hear for many decades as I walked, this journey without the resources that I needed. So I’ve experienced more healing that I just needed at this point in my life. The podcasts give me vocabulary and tools and affirmation by attending the group sessions.

I feel affirmed. I feel clarity, The BTR coaches are so professional. There are safeguards in place, so I feel like it’s a safe place to come. BTR coaches love us and they’re so well trained. I’m very, very grateful for BTR.

What is a Betrayal Trauma Support Group Like?

   Betrayal Trauma Victim #6: I was desperate for help and search the internet for answers. I came across info on gaslighting. So this is what I’d been experiencing in my marriage for 26 years. And there’s a name for it. It was literally a mind blowing revelation for me that led me to the BTR website where I went on a podcast binge.

And listen to everything I could get my hands on. The fog of gaslighting began to lift and with the help of one of the coaches, I gained the courage to set some significant and appropriate boundaries. Her sessions were very informative and practical with examples, in a safe situation with feedback and encouragement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb13E7gmufs Are Any Betrayal Trauma Support Groups Online?

Betrayal Trauma Victim #7:  The BTR community is amazing. The support groups, everyone gets it.

There is no judgment. There’s no feelings of being victimized like with some therapists. I truly feel that everyone who participates validates our experience. the coaches Offer very helpful feedback and suggestions. A wealth of information. And I appreciate that people will share what has worked and also what hasn’t worked for them.

I really appreciate the ease of use. Many different times during the day that you can connect with the coaches. You don’t have to wait, and you don’t have to travel. You can do it from your computer. Especially for people with kids, the ability to quickly get an appointment and not have to find a babysitter. You can, you know, toss a movie in for an hour and get your needs met.

Get that validation and that help that we’re all searching for. So I strongly suggest people try it. The fee is nominal. It’s much less than you’re ever going to find anywhere else. You can use as many groups as you want during the month, it’s the best investment you can make in your recovery.

I’m a huge fan. I love the style, the program. I love the model

What are Betrayal Trauma Support Group Sessions Like?

Betrayal Trauma Victim #8:   I was really desperate because therapists, like three of them in a row, didn’t work out. I was very blessed to find BTR. The BTR coaches are just wonderful.

The group meetings. are fulfilling in themselves, but the individual coach meetings are also wonderful. Everybody is so kind and helpful and gives me a lot of hope about what I’ve been going through. Thank you.

Feel Safe and Validated in a Betrayal Trauma Support Group

Betrayal Trauma Victim #9:   In the midst of Finding out my spouse had been lying and cheating. Again, actually number six that I know of. The deepest, darkest moment of my life. I just happened to find the BTR podcast Words can’t express how listening to the Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast truly saved my life.

It made me feel like there are others out there. I wasn’t alone. The words of encouragement, education, support, and knowing that The situation is for real, and I wasn’t crazy, it was so comforting. After searching the BTR site, I noticed services were offered that could help even further. I decided now was the time and signed up for Group.

Words truly can’t express how this experience helped in my life. Each story and experience touch my life in so many ways. The encouragement, education, and knowledge received from coaches and other women will forever be a part of my life.

I wish I would have found BTR sooner, but I know it was simply in God’s timing to bring this organization into my life. I look forward to continuing individual sessions. Thank you, BTR and Anne for everythinG.

See the BTR Group Session Schedule

It’s important for women to understand that under Federal Law, the distribution of intimate images without consent is illegal. If it’s happened to you, here’s what you need to know. When Laila Mickelwait, founder and CEO of the Justice Defense Fund, began questioning the legality of P____b’s content. She quickly learned that P____b is full of videos that document the abuse of women.

At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we take the firm stance that pornography is abusive to everyone involved. P____b is a gateway, catalyst, and enabler to some of the most graphic, insidious, and violent abuse on the internet. If your husband uses exploitative material you’re likely experiencing his emotional abuse. To discover if he’s using any of the 19 types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

Here’s How P____b Distributes Intimate Images Without Consent

P____b and other pornography sites, hosts videos of:

• Rape
• Violence
• Coercion
• Underage vicims
• Unconscious victims

P____b harms victims every day by allowing abusers to post filmed abuse. Protecting women from abuse is our goal. You can help today. Sign the petition here and let your voice be heard. P____b has ruined too many lives – it’s time to hold this industry accountable. To learn more listen to the FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast.

Transcript: Distribution of Intimate Images Without Consent

Anne: Laila Mickelwait is the founder and CEO of the Justice Defense Fund and the founder of the global trafficking hub movement supported by millions around the world. She has been combating the injustice of sex trafficking for over a decade and is a leading expert in the field. We are talking about distribution of intimate images without consent. Welcome Laila.

Laila: Thanks for having me.

Anne: Our audience is well aware of the harms of exploitative material on families. And also how it intersects with trafficking. Let’s talk about the work you are doing to bring justice to survivors of trafficking and child sex abuse.

Laila: You know, I’ve been doing this work for over 15 years. I don’t have a dramatic story of how I focused on this area. I grew up in a home where my father focused on human rights issues. He grew up in the Middle East in the midst of war. And he always instilled in us this sense of awareness about human rights issues and justice issues throughout our lives. And I came back around to that when I tried to decide what direction I wanted to pursue in my studies and my career path.

I realized I wanted to invest myself in something that would benefit me, and focus on alleviating human rights abuses. And came across the issue of trafficking around that time. Especially women and children stricken by the severity of the harm. And so that’s how I ended up focusing down that path.

Discovering Online Exploitation

Laila: As time went on. One thing I realized was that trafficking and these abuses were not only going on in brothels in Cambodia, the United States, streets and back alleys, and prostitution, but also online. And through the industry, I realized there is a big industry, a big tech industry and a big tobacco industry.

And that, I began to investigate and research over the last nine years. The intersection between trafficking, child sexual abuse material, all forms of image-based sexual abuse, and the big industry. I spent significant time looking into the harm it does to children. They’re exposed to these kinds of sites. You know, at very young ages these days. As of December, P____b was the largest and most popular exploitative material site in the world.

In 2020, they reported 47 billion visits to the site that year. 130 million visits per day in 2019. They had 6. 8 million videos uploaded to that one site. It would take you 169 years to watch the content uploaded to P____b in just one year. I was investigating that site because I was questioning. There were so many videos. Women in these homemade videos appeared victims of assault. They appeared to be in pain and protesting and not consenting to what was going on.

So that is distribution of intimate images without consent. And also homemade videos of girls that appeared to be underage teens and tweens. And I’m the antidote. How are they vetting these videos? And why is everybody in the world just assuming that because it’s on P____b, it’s legal. One night, my baby awakened me. And as I put him back to bed, I pondered these questions. They haunted me.

Personal Investigation & Findings

Laila: And I had an idea. I said, I’m going to try this test upload for myself. And so I took out my laptop and tried the upload process. I found out what millions of people would have already known. But nobody sounded the alarm about before. And that all that it takes to upload content onto the world’s most popular site was an email address. No ID to prove that you’re of age.

No consent form to show you weren’t assaulted or trafficked. So that is distribution of intimate images without consent. And that was the moment where everything came to a head. And where the Trafficking Hub was born and the movement began.

Anne: At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we consider all pornography as abuse. So for example, if someone says, well, Anne, a 12 year old boy who views it, is not an abuser. I would say, yeah, you’re right, but you know what has happened to him? It has abused him. SIt’s always an abuse issue in one form or another.

And the fact that people upload child sexual abuse material on P____b and profit from it is absolutely atrocious. So you use the term child sexual abuse material, which more and more people fighting use. Why has that been an important evolution to that term, child sexual abuse material, and away from child pornography?

Laila: Yeah, I think the way we talk about things matters. And one of the things brought to the surface regarding this issue. Is exactly what you’re saying, is this issue of abuse. And understanding abuse and talking about it in terms of abuse of children instead of pornography.

The Importance Of Terminology: Distribution Of Intimate Images Without Consent

Laila: So when I think of exploitative material, we think of an industry, we think of LA or a studio. We think of entertainment, we think of issues often brought up with free speech. And all these kinds of things that people talk about when they talk about it. Something used for pleasure. And so connecting children to that does not do justice to the harm that the Act has had on that child.

And being able to call it child sexual abuse material. I think, really describes what’s going on in a way that is so much fairer to the experience of victims. And doesn’t minimize or legitimize it in any way. What they went through, because children can’t consent to any of this no matter what. So anything involving children, which is distribution of intimate images without consent.

Like you said, advocates are starting to reframe that more and more. For people to better understand what’s going on by calling it child sexual abuse material. I agree with you regarding the consumption of this content when children are viewing it. I often call it a form of secondhand sexual abuse. Children exposed or even willingly seek out that content.

A curious 10, 11 year old who heard the word it at school. He goes home and searches Google for the word and ends up on P____b. Where there are so many thumbnails just on the home page where they auto play. You don’t even have to click play in any of the cases on the home pages of these sites.

Impact On Children & Families

Laila: A recent peer reviewed research study in England. They found significant videos on the homepages of these exploitative image tube sites, like P____b. They represented non-consensual sexual activity or criminal sexual activity, or actual criminal and non-consensual sexual activity. So, this is a real form of abuse of children. Children are exposed at alarming rates when they access this. And it’s doing damage to them.

So I’m a big advocate for protecting children from this kind of content.

Anne: I’m willing to say it’s not even secondhand that it’s just simply sexual abuse. Children are sexually abused when they view it. And I was talking to a friend, and she said she overheard someone give this speech. And they were like, when a child comes to you and says they looked at it. You just need to say two words, and everything will be good. And you look at them and tenderly say, It’s okay, and then that solves everything.

And she and I were like, no! No, that’s not what you say. You don’t say, it’s okay. You say, I’m so sorry. That should never have happened to you. That is a form of sexual abuse. I know you probably had some feelings going on because you’ve got a body, so you’re half curious, half traumatized. You talk about that stuff, but you should never say to a kid when they see it, it’s okay.

Don’t say many people have viewed it, or that’s happened to everyone. You should not say that. You should say, I am so sorry. That should never have happened to you. Or the person in it who is a victim of distribution of intimate images without consent.

Laila: Yeah, yes, I agree with that.

Children Traumatized By Viewing

Laila: And I’ve also been in touch with so many distraught parents, especially the last year and a half. They told me stories of their children. Viewing this content traumatizes them. What happens is serious. And in some cases, they’ve said, my son, after viewing the homepage of P____b, believed he witnessed an attack. And based on what we know about P____b, it’s likely that he witnessed an actual assault. That is distribution of intimate images without consent.

He believed it was real. Even if it was staged. They said he wasn’t the same after that. He changed. Viewing it traumatized him in a very concrete, real sense. And had to go into therapy, and they’re still working through that. It’s months and months later after exposure. In other cases, parents have told me about situations where their children had viewed it and then acted out what they saw on their siblings.

So basically a situation of assault and sexual assault against a younger sister, and that’s not uncommon to hear those stories. So I think it’s so important for us to see the seriousness of this. And handle it in a way that recognizes the real lasting trauma that could happen to children when they get exposed. And then we need to start advocating for protection. We need mandatory age verification laws. I was so encouraged to see what Germany is doing.

Distribution Of Intimate Images Without Consent: International Legislative Efforts

Laila: Germany is taking it so seriously that they’re on the brink of shutting down these sites, and the major tube sites in the country. Turning the switch off because they refuse to verify the age of users and protect children from this content. Because they recognize that it’s harmful to children.

Anne: Go Germany!

Laila: Yeah, exactly! And there are other countries, Canada has a bill introduced to do the same. Where they would require age verification for any site that hosts it. I think Australia is also looking into this, and the UK has taken this seriously. So I’m hopeful that we’ll get to a point where we are collectively having a new attitude about this and taking the harm to children very seriously.

Anne: Let’s talk specifically about the trafficking hub movement. And what you do to stop the harm done by P____b and also hold companies accountable that are profiting from assault videos. Video distribution of intimate images without consent.

Laila: Yeah, so going back to where I left off with the story. So I had made that personal discovery, something that so many people had already known. Tthat all it took was to upload content onto the world’s largest sites was an email address.

Anyone With An I-Phone Can Produce It

Laila: So anonymously, anybody in the world with an iPhone could be a producer, record a crime scene and upload it to the site. Nobody was verifying age and consent. And because of that, they set the site up for exploitation. And infested with videos of real assaults, trafficking, assault, child sexual abuse, and also spy cam videos.

People record women without their knowledge in public restrooms, changing rooms, and even teen prom toilets. Then they become victims of distribution of intimate images without consent. They’d installed cameras there and recorded and The site was full of those kinds of things.

Anne: I have met several women in our community whose husbands filmed them with a hidden camera in the shower or while they had sex, and then they uploaded. So we also know that in marriage relationships, this is happening. Husbands secretly film their wives in various compromising circumstances, and upload that.

Laila: Yes, that’s happening quite a lot. Yes, distribution of intimate images without consent. Non consensually recorded and distributed in apps. And that is, yes, again, infested. This type of content infests these sites. When distribution of intimate images without consent happens, people record women. And they don’t even know. And then they upload it sites.

P____b had a download button on every video, where anyone in the world, 130 million visitors per day, could download and own it for free. That trauma of that individual or that non-consensual video recorded and distributed. And then uploaded forever again, and again, and again. It gets completely out of control once it’s uploaded in the first place. So the trauma to victims of this, they call it the immortalization of their trauma.

MindGeek’s Monopoly & Accountability

Laila: Where it’s one thing to experience an assault. It’s another thing to know that that assault will be used for profit long after they’re even gone. Because of distribution of intimate images without consent. And so, all that to say, back when I made this discovery about this issue. This site full of these illegal crime scene videos, I wrote an op-ed about it in February of last year. People were shocked and horrified when that was published. It got an explosive reaction.

Because it has presented itself to the world for so many years. People spend so much money on things like save the pandas, bees, and the oceans. And raise awareness about breast cancer, donate masks for coronavirus to hospitals. And do all these different PR stunts. To make people believe they were this mainstream, ethical, “cute” company.

And when they found out the site was full of child assault and abuse. They were horrified about what was going on. And they said, I want to do something, please start a petition or I will. So I copied and pasted my op ed into a petition for change. Our petition went viral. And now we have 2. 2 million signatures from 192 countries.

And over 600 organizations from 65 countries participated in calling for P____b to be held criminally responsible for what they’ve done. There have been protests outside the MindGeek headquarters. And MindGeek, FYI, MindGeek is the company that owns P____b. MindGeek owns 80 percent, which is the number cited. 80 percent of the online mainstream industry. They have a monopoly on the global mainstream pornography industry.

Distribution Of Intimate Images Without. Consent: Media Exposure & Financial Impact

Laila: Owning hundreds of brands and sites, and they’ve basically swallowed up all the little companies. And rolled it all up into one huge mega corporation, MindGeek. And P____b is just one site of the many, many sites they own, the flagship site. So calling for criminal accountability for MindGeek. Also, hundreds of media articles were written in 2020. And then the New York Times did a groundbreaking investigation and released an expose in December called the Children of P____b.

And this was the harrowing stories of children who’d been abused for profit on the site. They are victims of distribution of intimate images without consent. That resulted in 4, 000 follow-up articles. And within days, Visa, MasterCard, and Discover cut ties with P____b and MindGeek. And then P____b deleted 80 percent of its site. So the 10th most visited website in the world deleted 10 million videos in 24 hours after all this happened.

And they’ve been on a crippling trajectory ever since, obviously financially crippled because they can only take cryptocurrency. But there have also been parliamentary investigations launched. Where the hidden owners of P____b have been forced out of the shadows. They’ve been hiding their identities for years, using fake names and concealing themselves from the public. And they’ve been forced out of the shadows and identified.

Anne: Oh, really quick. I doubt anyone would know who these people are, but who are they? Like, do they own a football team? Are they like doctors, are they like upstanding members of society? Like, who are they?

Hidden Owners Names

Laila: Yeah, I will say their names, because I like saying their names because they have hidden for so long. So Bern Birkmayer. He’s a man from Austria found just weeks ago, actually, by an investigative journalist. Who located him and actually got him on camera for the first time in London. But he also has a residence in Hong Kong. He’s a businessman.

And Farris Antoon and Corey Ehrman. Corey Ehrman has used fake names, Corey Price and Blake White, for years, speaking in the media over and over again. And these are men who run the site, and they profit from male entitlement to women’s bodies.

And the latest lawsuit is on behalf of 34 women. It is based on the testimonies of firsthand accounts of those inside the company, whistleblowers, and other evidence that this is actually a criminal enterprise.

This is organized crime, and they were sued. Using the laws that we go after the mob with. So Rico racketeering, child pornography, trafficking, and all that was a massive lawsuit recently filed. So that’s who they are.

Anne: We talk about all the pain and suffering that trafficking, and child sexual abuse causes to the world in general. And then obviously specific individuals. Who are victims of distribution of intimate images without consent. whIt’s just overwhelming, all the pain and suffering it’s caused. What do you think is next? And then also, how can our community of women who have been so deeply impacted in their homes by it. How can they help this cause?

Laila: I agree. There have been people and advocates who’ve been pioneering. And pushing back against this for so many years, and it’s so exciting to see traction.

The Power Of Collective Action

Laila: And see the mega-predator, is what I call Mind Geek and P____b accountable. Truly kind of a villain situation where you have the villain and the victims. And to see victims obtaining justice, getting their voices heard, exposing the criminal enterprise as the lawsuit called it behind all this. It’s so encouraging and exciting, but we’re not done yet. P____b and MindGeek are severely crippled. And we’ve already seen a domino effect within its largest competitor.

So the New York Times also did an expose after P____b on XVideos. And PayPal stopped doing business with XVideos. And they’re under criminal investigation in the Czech Republic where they’re based. There’s been a shaking and reckoning within this industry. But we’re not done. We want to see real, full justice. And for me and the victims I’ve spoken to, what that means is restitution. For the distribution of intimate images without consent of the individual.

We want successful civil litigation. And there have been six lawsuits. On behalf of 97 women launched against MindGeek since the summer of last year. And three of them are class actions for trafficked minors. But we want to see these successful. We want to see these victims compensated. And then we want to see criminal prosecutions of the executives responsible for this. Ultimately, what I see and victims see as justice is to see the site shut down. To see it actually shut down.

Because you think about Harvey Weinstein when he was caught raping women. They didn’t let him just say sorry and go on his merry way. That’s not how the law works. That’s not how justice works. He needs to be put in prison for sexual abuse, criminal sexual abuse.

How to Get Involved To Stop Distribution Of Intimate Images Without Consent

Laila: So we need to see the same thing. We don’t let them hide behind a corporation. When this actual mass abuse has happened for so long. You want to be part of this, with so many organizations and advocates, individuals and victims. Who’ve joined this movement to hold MindGeek accountable and stop distribution of intimate images without consent. Sign the trafficking petition at traffickinghubpetition.com. Share it, and also speak with your representatives. They work for you.

And raise this issue with them and tell them we need to see the Stop Internet Sexual Exploitation Act passed. This is one way to help stop human trafficking and exploiation. And that would require age and consent verification for every individual in every video on these sites. You can go to justicedefensefund.org and read about what we’re doing to empower victims to pursue civil litigation against their abusers. Because these corporate abusers care about finances above everything.

And so if we can hit them where it hurts, in their bank accounts and on behalf of victims, that’ll also help to really rein in this criminal enterprise.

Anne: There are many women and people I talk to, and many people roll their eyes when I talk about it. Yeah, we know it’s bad, but trying to stop it, are you kidding me? You could never do that. And I always think, absolutely, we can. I don’t know how long it will take, I don’t know how we will do it. But we have to think that we can do something to actually do it. In the Christian faith, faith the size of a mustard seed can move a mountain.

Personal Safety & Empowerment

Anne: So it starts with us believing it’s possible. And for my community, the first thing they need to start believing is that they themselves can get to safety in their own homes. Number one thing on their list is emotional, physical, and sexual safety in your own home. As a victim myself, your own heart leads you to try and help others. Will you say that website will be one more time where they can sign that petition?

Laila: Yeah, traffickinghubpetition.com. Awareness is the doorway to action, so we can stop distribution of intimate images without consent. You know, people can’t act on something they’re not aware of. And with regard to all this, in the industry, and people not taking this seriously. Or kind of joking about it.

I think what is helpful is when people realize the real harm this is doing. To real victims in front of the screen and behind it, and to begin seeing this as the real human rights issue it is. And so get people to safety. For those used behind the screens, that’s a great thing. And those, like children exposed to this, prevent them from being exposed to this. Prevent that sexual abuse from ever happening. That’s a lot of effort, and if we can do that, that’s a huge victory.

Anne: For one woman to become emotionally, psychologically, and sexually safe in her own home. That is a huge victory for her. And it’s also one of the battles in this war. Each one of us is a piece of this puzzle. If you are on this journey and need support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session today.

Building A Supportive Community For Victims Of Distribution Of Intimate Images Without Consent

Laila: Yes, and never underestimate. What I’ve seen so much over the last year and a half. With this trafficking hub movement, one by one, adding your voice, organizations collaborating, and working together. We can’t take on a multi-billion dollar predatory criminal enterprise alone.

We have to do it together, and that’s the only way we’re going to get traction. So encourage everyone to participate in whatever way you can. So we can stop distribution of intimate images without consent.

Anne: Absolutely, I want to give women hope in their personal lives. That’s why I created The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. You can learn more by clicking that link. It helps women take tiny steps. Just one step at a time. Because this whole situation, especially if you’re facing it in your own home, is so overwhelming. With our community, I envision that women are becoming safe in their own homes.

They are becoming an army of healthy women across the world. Who are helping other women get to emotional, psychological, and sexual safety as well. And the idea of that gives me hope when things seem really dark.

Laila: I love the fact that this audience for this podcast is like an army of women. Who are so passionate about this issue because they’ve experienced the hurt of it themselves. And they can empathize and just come at it from a place of such a real motivation. For ending something that you personally experienced in your own life. And can use that energy and passion to help stop this from happening in the future to others. Love what you’re doing in your community.

Anne: Thank you. And we’re so grateful for you and what you do again. To learn more about Laila’s organization, go to justicedefensefund.org.

A narcissistic husband can make marriage a nightmare. Below you’ll find expert advice for women married to a narcissistic man.

If you need support dealing with your narcissistic husband, check out our daily online narcissistic abuse support group.

Why Dealing With a Narcissistic Husband Feels So Hard

A narcissistic husband doesn’t just behave selfishly. He often:

• Rewrites events to avoid responsibility
• Blames you for his behavior
• Minimizes your concerns
• Expects emotional access without offering emotional safety

Over time, this creates a dynamic where you feel responsible for fixing something you didn’t break. That’s why typical relationship advice often fails.

5 Tips for How To Deal With a Narcissistic Husband

If you’re living with a narcissistic spouse, these strategies can help you stay grounded and protect your emotional well-being.

1. Recognize He Is Unlikely to Change

One of the most painful realizations is also the most freeing. Knowing that he is who he is can help you make decisions about how you want to protect your peace.

To see if he’s using any one of these little known emotional abuse tactics, take my free emotional abuse test.

2. Avoid Arguments That Go Nowhere

Arguments with a narcissistic husband are rarely about resolution. He’ll often:

• Shift topics mid-conversation
• Turn into personal attacks
• End with you apologizing

Focus on conserving your energy.

3. Have Realistic Expectations

Sadly, if he’s incapable of empathy or concern for you, it’s important to expect it.

Adjusting your expectations isn’t giving up. It’s seeing clearly.

4. Have Compassion for Yourself

Many women blame themselves for staying. But the truth is, there are often complex reasons:

• Children
• Finances
• Fear of escalation
• Hope things will improve

Self-compassion helps you move forward to do what’s right for you without judgment.

5. Invest in Safe, Healthy Relationships

A narcissistic husband isn’t emotionally safe. That’s why it’s critical to build connection elsewhere:

• Trusted friends
• Support groups, like the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Online Support Group
• Women who understand what you’re experiencing

Safe relationships remind you what reality actually feels like.

“If you choose to stay in proximity to your narcissistic husband, the safest course of action is to keep things very surface level. Talk about the weather, talk about your new lawn mower.”

Anne Blythe, M.Ed. – Host of The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast

Transcript: How to Deal With a Narcissistic Husband

Anne: I’m so honored to have Dr. Ramani with me on today’s episode, she’s a licensed clinical psychologist. You’ve most likely seen her on YouTube. She’s a professor of psychology at California state university, Los Angeles, and the author of lots of books.

One of them, should I stay or should I go is amazing.

The link is available on our books page. Later in the episode, I’ll be calling out Dr. Ramani’s five tips for dealing with a narcissistic husband. So stay tuned for when I start calling those out for you.

Anne: Dr. Ramani received her ma and PhD degrees in clinical psychology from UCLA, and her research on personality disorders has been funded by the national institutes of health.

At BTR, we’re talking a lot about how addiction is abusive to a spouse.

What Tools Can A Woman Use To Survive A Narcissistic Husband?

Anne: So my first question for you is, while narcissistic behavior patterns seem to be a hallmark of addiction, those who get into and maintain recovery tend to cease those behavior patterns, indicating lasting change is possible, at least for those who choose to do the hard work required to get into and maintain recovery from their addiction.

Yet for some, no amount of recovery work seems to bring change on. Maybe they’re not doing it right.

Anne: I don’t know, but short of investing years to wait and see, are there indicators that wives can look for to determine if their loved one with narcissistic abuse patterns is capable of change?

Dr. Ramani: It’s a great question because when you have something like addiction, tangled up with narcissism, just like if it’s addiction, substance addiction.

Survive A Narcissistic Husband: Learn To Recognize Manipulation

Dr. Ramani: That’s an entanglement of two patterns. Now, if you had someone, addict for example, but not narcissistic, then those are the clients where, whether it’s 12 step, trauma wor. Ongoing therapy, that’s going to work well. They’re going to commit to whatever they’ve promised to or promised to themselves in terms of their growth, in terms of distancing themselves from these patterns.

Dr. Ramani: When you have both patterns present, The addiction and the narcissism, you’re not going to see as much change. You got to remember that the addiction pattern is very much focused on the other patterns. The, the lack of empathy, the entitlement. I have a right to do this, I have a right to five orgasms a day.

I need lots of people who tell me I’m attractive like a spoiled child. So, I would then argue that the addict, who also has significant co-morbid symptoms of narcissistic personality, is not going to get much better. What you might be able to do is less time spent on exploitative content.

They may be less likely to engage in another infidelity, especially if the stakes are high. For example, an expensive divorce, potential loss of custody of a child, a financial hit, shame in the eyes of their community. So dealing with both a addict and a narcissistic husband is a real double whammy.

A Narcissistic Husband Has A Barrier To Treatment

Dr. Ramani: But when you have that narcissism, because that tends to be what’s driving the compulsive behavior and the compulsive need for validation, that’s often going to be the reason treatment doesn’t work.

So I would view narcissism as the barrier to it working, because there’s very little evidence, other than in the most rare of cases, that narcissistic patterns are amenable to significant change in treatment. And please note the use of my word significant. So a narcissistic husband has a real barrier to treatment.

Empathy and Narcissism

Dr. Ramani: What you might get is a partner who actually stops cheating, or stops going to other women, or stops going to massage parlors, or stops watching exploitative content.

But, they are still un-empathic, they are still entitled, they are still full of rage. So it’s sort of like, choose your poison. Some people might say, okay, the addiction part’s gone, but this is still a really not nice person. That’s where it starts to get complicated.

https://youtu.be/gvxpK9yloco

Anne: Was that from Epstein? The quote, the five orgasms a day?

Dr. Ramani: Now that you’re saying that, yeah, I guess I read something and he said, I’m a great guy, I’m a hard working guy, king of the world, I have the right to five orgasms a day. I’ve heard that before.

Anne: Exactly. Yeah, entitlement.

Recognizing Narcissistic Traits

Anne: So, is there any way that a woman can see if he has those narcissistic traits while he’s using or does he need to stop using for a little while and then see if it’s related to the it. How can you kind of figure this out while surviving narcissistic abuse?

Dr. Ramani: If you’re going to try to determine whether you have a narcissistic husband, then you’re looking for things like, are they non-empathic? Are they entitled, grandiose, superficial, arrogant, prone to rage, or controlling? That’s what you’re looking for.

Anne: So what they’re looking for is do they have the ability to empathize with me?

Dealing With A Narcissistic Husband: Don’t Cut People Into Parts

Anne: Now, when women are looking for that, how can they separate grooming from actual real true empathy, because so many of these men, they seem like they’re very empathic.

They can say the right things and do the right things, but that’s just grooming. So what would you say to women who are like, man, he really is empathic and kind and generous. Like my ex, for example, he did the dishes and he helped out with the kids.

And he was what I would say amazing person. Then he’d fly off the handle and rage. Over and over again. What would you say to women who are like, well, there is this part of him that is so empathetic.

Dr. Ramani: We don’t cut people into parts. It’s holistic.

Judging People on Their Abuses

Dr. Ramani: What I’m about to say is going to sound incredibly cynical and I apologize for it, but sadly I do judge people on their abuses and not on their virtues.

Because you’ve now shown me what’s in your wheelhouse. I have heard the saying hurt people hurt people but that doesn’t qualify me or anyone else to be your punching bag. So the first time somebody goes off into a rage it’s time to go.

I mean, it’s that simple and yet it’s that complicated. So no doing the dishes doesn’t obviate going into a rage. The rage always be more important than emptying the dishwasher. We’re 10 years from a robot emptying a dishwasher.

Dr. Ramani: The other thing a lot of people confuse is generosity.

They’ll say, but he took me to so many nice dinners, and he bought me an airplane ticket, and he took me on a vacation. Any fool can do that. Anyone who has enough money in a bank account, that’s just pulling money. That’s easy. It’s the heavy lifting. It’s how does this person cope under conditions of stress or frustration?

Generosity vs. Genuine Care

Something at work doesn’t go the way they want, you’re running late, you take a trip with them and things aren’t going right. How does this person handle themselves under those conditions? That kind of stuff shows up in the first four to six weeks of a relationship. If you find yourself making excuses for this person be very careful because those excuses at four to six weeks are the excuses you’ll be writing in 40 years.

Anne: I love how you said a robot will be doing the dishes in 10 years when things were really devolving in my relationship right before my ex’s arrest. He said, I just want to connect with you and I said, well, what do you do to connect with me?

He said, I mow the lawn.

Dr. Ramani: See, there’s all those books out there, the Men from Mars and Women from Venus and the love languages and all that. I’m not a fan because those books run the danger of writing off as an excuse like, well, his love language is doing the lawn.

I think doing the lawn is perfectly fine, but only if it’s embedded in a larger framework of empathy, kindness, compassion, respect, mutuality, patience, serenity, and compromise. And you know what? I’ll cut my own lawn if I can have all that other stuff.

Co-Parenting with a Narcissist

Anne: So talking about co parenting, let’s go that direction for a minute. How do we help the child of a narcissist?

When co parenting with a narcissistic individual, what measures can a healthy parent take to reduce the risk of the behavior traits being passed on to the next generation?

Raising Healthy Kids with a Narcissistic Co-Parent

Dr. Ramani: The one thing that’s most important to note is that it takes one good healthy parent to raise a good healthy kid. We know that. A lot of parents panic thinking, Oh my goodness, I really chose a bad person here.

I’m going to pay forever. But what it means is that good, healthy parent now has to do the work, not of two parents, but of three parents. Because you have to do the work of you being a good parent. And then you have to do the work of dodging the bullets of the bad stuff that the unskilled parent is doing and then step into their role.

That’s like a third job here. And I tell people that the key is, is to stop waiting for justice, but they should be doing this. They’re the other parent. It’s not fair. No, it’s not fair. And sadly, the only thing that many people can do is look in the mirror and say, I made a lousy choice, but this is not this child’s fault.

And so I’ve got to step up.

The Role of a Healthy Parent

Dr. Ramani: I’ve got to do right and not get caught up in what’s fair, what’s not fair, but to do the heavy lifting of parenting.

Which means teaching your child how to tolerate frustration and disappointment, teaching your child empathy, allowing your child’s emotional vocabulary to develop and grow. Never shame them or humiliate them for feeling anything for engaging with them being mindful with them.

You have to be everything, you have to be the one that the soccer game, you have to be the one teaching them to wash the dishes. Do their chores and compromise and play nice and all of that. You have to be super person if this is the case if you’re co parenting with a narcissist. I have worked with many clients who had one deeply narcissistic parent and one very loving parent and the loving parent saved them.

The only downside to this is if a child grows up with a very narcissistic parent, even if they have that very loving parent. Something I do often see in is that these people grow into rather anxious adults.

Parallel Parenting and Exhaustion

They still live under the specter of, I’m not good enough, or what could I do to win them over, or the tension or anxiety that a angry parent brought into the home. Even if they had that loving parent, it may not translate into narcissism in that person that when they turn into adult, it may turn into anxiety.

Anne: I can’t be super person. So that is a little bit discouraging, but I will try.

Anne: I think about that and I’m like, Oh, I parallel parent so that I hold a no contact boundary and that helps. But I still get exhausted. Being a super person is impossible.

Dr. Ramani: It is impossible in some ways.

It’s also having like those standards of like being the good enough parent, but also also.

Validating Children’s Emotions

Dr. Ramani: Never gaslight your own kids, and by that I mean, you don’t have to say, well, dad’s your hero, and that’s great. Like, if dad humiliates, for example, that child showing an emotion, then you can say, sweetie, that wasn’t okay.

Emotions are wonderful, but some grown ups don’t always understand them. What’s amazing about you as a little person is that you’re actually brave enough to show your emotions. So you don’t have to say, dad’s a jerk who doesn’t even have one emotional bone in his body and is a narcissist. You don’t have to do that.

What you can say is that what’s amazing about you is you’re able to do something and actually dad’s not able to do that. And that’s hard for him. Acknowledge it and it’s a struggle as it is, but also that it’s not okay to ever have their emotions shamed. Never let your kids say, Oh, that’s okay. Dad didn’t mean that or that’s just how dad is.

Dad did mean it. That’s why dad did it. That doesn’t make it okay. You don’t, again, it’s that fine balancing act of not throwing dad under the bus because that’s not good parenting, but also not signing off on it and saying, that’s just how dad is.

Charm, Charisma, and Confidence

Anne: So, you refer to charm, charisma, and confidence as the three C’s of narcissism, yet acknowledge not all who possess those are narcissistic.

In the early stages of dating, before the traits which comprise the pillars of narcissism begin to reveal themselves, are there other clues to watch for which might indicate whether the three C’s are red flags rather than positive traits?

Dr. Ramani: I actually talk about this in the new book and I hinted this and should I stay or should I go?

If you can find someone who’s charming, charismatic, and confident, and also empathic, kind, reciprocal, serene and patient and all of those things. You just won the human being lottery is what you did. Because I think that somebody may be very charismatic because they’re telling you a story of what they do for a living or about their life or something like that.

Early Red Flags Of A Narcissist

You can get so caught up in that story that what we don’t pay attention to is are they listening to other people or are they merely holding court. Acting as sort of like an entertainer rather than as a human being.

The fairy tale. I’m not a fan of fairy tales. I think that in that quest, the larger than life people, we can get lost in them. It’s almost as though you have to in your head saying, if I’m talking about myself, is this person listening? Sometimes charming people are actually really good at that. So you have to be careful.

It’s not just that they listen. Are they interested? Are they asking questions? Pay attention to how they talk about other people. Are they contemptuous? Are they belittling? People give you more clues than you think. You just have to be on. Now, not all of us want to be sort of a shrink the first time we meet someone at a party.

Married To A Narcissistic Husband: His Real Character Will Emerge

I get that. And it may very well be that the charming, charismatic, confident person is beguiling enough that you do go out on that first date or that second date. But notice what happens in those first few weeks, those love bomb weeks. Slowly but surely you’ll see their interest levels start to fade a little bit.

You’re gonna see, again, real life happens. They might have to wait in line at a restaurant, or their order may not come out exactly the way they want it. Or, They may be barraging you with text and you can’t always answer. Watch how they answer when things aren’t perfect. We so desperately want the charming, confident, and charismatic person to be the whole package, that we try to ignore it when the other parts of the package don’t show up.

And so, I think that if you can get those three things with all of the other stuff, then it’s fine. But those three things without the empathy and all the other good stuff, forget it. That’s where you have to pay attention. And empathy is one of those things people should pretty much lead with. So if it starts to wane, if the people can’t handle things like frustration and disappointment, those are the kinds of patterns that bring a relationship down.

Hypersensitivity Is A Red Flag Of A Narcissist

And another thing to pay attention to, no matter how charming or charismatic someone is, how sensitive are they? Hypersensitivity is one of those red flags that shows itself off early because people are trying to impress you when they first meet you, right? So if you say, Oh gosh, you know, I never knew that school was that hard to get into.

And they’re like, what do you mean? That school’s really hard to get into. That’s a red flag. That they’re so hypersensitive, they’re like, yeah, whatever, I had a great experience. And they can’t be a bit easy breezy about it. That tension, that when they feel that they’re at all being slighted, that’s a very big red flag.

And a lot of people write that off to like anxiety when they first meet someone. Uh uh. That hypersensitivity is usually a sign of more problematic things lurking.

Anne: That’s interesting.

Anne: When you said they’re listening, but are they really listening? It reminded me of my ex when I would talk. I thought he was the best listener because I could just sit and talk and he would just sit there and listen.

But looking back, I realized he was never really engaged. He was just there in body, but not actually engaged with his mind.

So he wouldn’t ask me follow up questions or ask me how I felt about it. I’m very I would say independently descriptive. I would just sort of say all the things I wanted to say without needing prompting. I thought he was a good listener, but I know now that that was not good listening.

Listening Vs. Engaging

He was probably daydreaming about bike parts or something.

Dr. Ramani: Yes. And also pay attention to how much they remember. I mean, well, ah, well he has ADHD, so he doesn’t remember stuff. I don’t know. When you care enough about a person, you remember stuff. And if you do sort of feel like it’s a soliloquy and many times when we first meet someone, we’re anxious.

So some of us talk too much when we’re anxious. So a narcissist might actually cut you a wide berth to keep talking and talking and talking and talking. We think that’s good listening. Actually good listening means that every so often they say, and how did that feel? What happened next? That their punctuation into the conversation means that they’re actually tracking what you’re talking.

Anne: On that same note, when I would interrupt my ex. When he was talking to track what he was saying, so you mean this or, oh, this is what happened. He would get angry with me for interrupting him. And I was like, wait, I’m practicing active listening skills. You know, this is what people do when they’re listening to people.

And he would get really mad and tell me that I needed to be completely quiet until he was done. Do you see that as that common?

Survive A Narcissistic Husband: It Doesn’t Matter Why He’s Abusive

Dr. Ramani: Yeah, that’s a real problem too. There’s a lot of places that could come from, it can come from arrogance, it can come from entitlement, it can come from family of origin issues. That that’s how they did it in this family, that you kind of did your little speech and then sat down.

Here’s the thing. People say, well, if that’s how they grew up and I feel bad for them, I feel bad for them too. But if that doesn’t work for you, this is how it’s always going to be, you know? So it’s like, I get that people feel bad for where people came from and that’s lovely and compassionate, but you’re not going to change that.

You can’t unring the bell of their history. So yes, I think narcissists, like I said, they hold court. Everything’s a soliloquy. You say this long speech and then someone else has a long speech. It’s parallel play. It’s not the interactiveness of a relationship. And so, that idea of stop interacting, if that happened early enough in a relationship, that’s usually a red flag of a problem.

Anne: Wish I would have known that before. That would have been helpful. But hopefully our listeners will think about that as they’re interacting.

Often, a narcissistic man will attempt to deflect his own behavior onto the healthy partner, his wife or girlfriend. Causing the healthy woman to question whether it could be true, whether she herself is the unhealthy person, if she is abusive.

Do you recommend any self assessment tools to provide a reality check for a victim?

Deflection And Gaslighting

Dr. Ramani: Yes. This pattern of deflecting their behavior to the healthy partner reflects two things. In part, it’s something we call projection, so when something is uncomfortable in us, we don’t like it, and so unconsciously we’re projected onto other people.

For example, somebody might have a forbidden sentiment, like they have racial prejudice or something, they’ll accuse someone else of being racist. You know, when that’s not at all true. Projection is one of the key defenses of the narcissist.

Secondly, deflection is also gaslighting. So it confuses the other person. Anything that confuses someone else and denies and twists and contorts the other person’s reality is gaslighting, which is emotional abuse. So when all of that’s happening, sometimes people say, you know, it’s almost like my reality changed.

I was getting sort of sucked into this alternate universe.

Dr. Ramani: We know that one of the main tools of the abuser, and controlling partner is to cut that person off from other people, from friends, from family, because one of the most important self assessment tools for a reality check are the other relationships you have.

The people that far predated this partner, the people who know you and love you and get you and unconditionally are behind you that you can go and check this out and say, you know, it’s interesting. My partner accused me of la la la, whatever it is. And it’s not something you believe about yourself. A good honest friend will say, yeah, sometimes you can be like that.

Isolation from Support Networks

Or they might say, goodness, no universe we occupy, are you that thing? That’s so strange that this person would say that. We all need those safe reality check spaces to go to. Like I said, in a lot of times a narcissistic husband detects that there are other people around their new partner that are going to be healthy and slowly but surely, they distance themselves from them.

They say negative things about those friends like, Oh, your friend, she doesn’t have your best interest at heart. Or, Oh, your sister was flirting with me or whatever it may be. To create mistrust in those relationships to take away that support network. But we need those spaces. So it’s having these kinds of, like I said, unconditional accepting spaces where your reality is not being twisted.

That can be very useful. Ultimately though, ultimately what I want for everybody is that they have within themselves. A space where they know who they are. The challenge with a narcissistic husband is that narcissists prey upon vulnerable people. As soon as they see that somebody’s not falling for their game, they’re going to get out pretty quick.

A narcissistic husband is uncanny at figuring out who a good target is and running with it. And so I think that that’s another thing that it’s so important, especially for young women.

To do the work of knowing who they are and what they are about. The problem is many people start dating and getting into relationships long before they do that kind of inner psychological work. So they’re building the airplane in the sky. You’re learning about yourself while you’re in this relationship, but this relationship is actually twisting your reality.

What Are “Flying Monkeys”?

Anne: What would you say to women who are worried about their abusive. husband spending time with unhealthy people around him. So they’re like, Oh, I don’t like it when he spends time with his family or these friends because they just sort of support this like entitled kind of mentality that he has.

What would you say to women like that who are actually attempting maybe to isolate their abuser from the system that enabled him to be an abuser?

Dr. Ramani: It’s an interesting idea because obviously these enabling systems around this person are adding fuel to this person’s fire, right? There’s no dissenting voice. They are empowering him, they’re enabling him, and he gets away with it. And this can happen.

Anne: In some circles called flying monkeys.

Dr. Ramani: Yeah, but flying monkeys to me are also people that a person enlists at the time a relationship ends. So the flying monkey model to me is like, let’s say a marriage is falling apart or someone’s breaking up. The narcissist will then go and poach everyone, even the people close to their partner, their friends, other family and say, Hey, did you know that she cheated on me?

Hey, did you know that she was doing this? And so they bring everyone over to their side. and then they’re all doing the bidding. Like, what are you doing? Why are you breaking up with him? He’s such a great guy. Or why did you do that to him? Of course he’s hurt. They enlist people. I think that the people around them before that kind of rupture happens are just merely their enablers.

Narcissists Will Buy Their “Good Guy” Image

One of the classical models of the narcissistic person is they’re often very generous because they use money and they invite people on trips or they buy the round of drinks at the bar. That’s their way of keeping people close. It’s a lot less. effortful than having to actually listen to people. And people never want to kill the golden goose, right?

So like, ah, he’s a good guy. He buys the drinks. That doesn’t make him a good guy. That makes him somebody who wastes money in a bar, but they then fall for that thinking. Like, well, he’s a nice guy because he buys the drinks. So then they can find a lot of people that enable them. It could be their boss.

It could be somebody who’s very powerful in a small town, it could be any number of reasons. The fantasy, though, becomes, if I could just get this abusive, controlling, hostile, difficult, un-empathic guy away from his enablers. He’s going to turn into a nice guy? That’s a fantasy. That’s absolutely a fantasy.

Because even a person in the midst of any group of people, if they’re good and solid, That goodness and that solidness will shine through. Maybe not as brightly as it would if they were around good people, but a person who’s just sort of not a nice person is going to be not a nice person. These people make his voice louder, but getting him away is not going to silence that voice.

A Narcissist Doesn’t Change By Changing His Friends

Anne: Yeah, it also made me think as I went through that, because after his arrest, he was quote unquote free, to hang out with whoever he wanted. Because he had a no contact order and I couldn’t influence him at all. And Then from a safe distance, I was able to observe who he chose to hang out with.

He was just choosing to hang out with people who I thought were super unhealthy and abusive and just people I would never want to be around. That’s who he was choosing to be with when he had all these options. So that helped me realize, wait a minute, why am I trying to get someone who is acting this way away from other people who act this way when that’s really who he wants to be with?

I just need to let him be free. Fly! I even told him that at the very end. I said, fly! Go! Go do what you want! He refused to leave. He wouldn’t leave the home, so that was fun. So you acknowledge that some women may not be able to walk away, and for them, managing expectations can protect them from individuals and the effects of ongoing abuse.

Survive A Narcissistic Husband: Maintain Realistic Expectations

Anne: Can you expand on managing expectations with a narcissistic husband and how it can protect a victim from ongoing abuse?

Dr. Ramani: There’s so many reasons people cannot leave narcissistic relationships. Financial reasons, cultural reasons. They have children, religion, fear, anxiety, and that they still actually love elements of this person.

They want to be married. Even on some of the good days are enough. They want that person around, and all of these are valid reasons, and I, nor anyone else, can stand in judgment of that. In this group, though, I am not counting people who are victims of severe psychological, emotional, or physical abuse.

Obviously, that’s an entirely different game, where safety becomes everything. But in your sort of garden variety, narcissistic relationship, There’s a lot of reasons people stay in these sorts of invalidating spaces.

Dr. Ramani: So if you’re going to stay though, then you’ve got to maintain realistic expectations and by that I mean you’ve got to recognize this is not going to change.

This pattern is how it is. So do not expect that all of a sudden, if you lose 25 pounds, they’re going to be happy. When your kids are growing out of the house, everything’s going to be happy. If you kept the house a little cleaner, it’d be happy. He gets a promotion. It’s going to be happy. Nothing’s going to change.

Survive A Narcissistic Husband: Expect that It Will Get Worse After Having Children

This is who this person is, who they were when you met them. This is who they are now. A lot of narcissistic relationships get worse after you have kids. So some people will say we were kind of going along. And then we had kids and then it got really dark. You got to remember for a narcissistic husband, a kid coming along, kids are inconvenient.

They’re noisy, messy, demanding, and magnificent. But the fact is they’re demanding. And for a narcissistic husband, that feels like a competition. They’re not always the greatest source of the narcissistic supply and they pull the partner away. So that’s often where a lot of narcissistic relationships start changing.

Not to mention a woman who has a child, her body changes, You know, there’s a period of time where it’s not what she wanted it to be, and unless she has lots of resources, she’s not going right back to her pre baby body ever, quite frankly. So, all of those things can make it complicated. So in terms of managing those expectations, this ain’t gonna change.

Tip 1 To Survive A Narcissistic Husband: Recognize They Won’t Change

Anne: So calling this out for you, this is tip number one on how to deal with a narcissistic husband, recognize that they won’t change.

Dr. Ramani: This is it. You are going to live a life devoid of empathy. With someone who’s arrogant. You are going live with someone who’s full of rage. You are going to live with somebody who’s constantly needing validation. So from what that means then is that you know that they’re going to insult you.

You know that they’re going to invalidate good news. When you get a promotion, they should not be the first person you tell. You call your people, you call the people you trust and love and who will be thrilled for you. Call a few of them first. And then, and only then, you can tell your partner, Oh, by the way, I got a promotion.

They’ll insult you. Oh, but it’s just a new title with no more money or who cares, or that’s not even that important a job. But by then you’ve already heard good things. from the people who matter. So you’ve got to learn not to engage. You’ve got to learn to totally dial it down. To make sure that you’re keeping it literally all the things you talk about, the weather, the first day of school is next Wednesday.

Did you see that the guy across the street got a new tractor to mow his lawn? Like that’s it. The conversation can’t go any deeper than that. You want deeper conversation, you need to do it with other friends, people close to you, people you can trust. You have to engage in radical acceptance. This is how it’s always going to be much like the managing expectations.

Tip 2 To Survive A Narcissistic Husband: Avoiding Arguments

Dr. Ramani: You have to get out of patterns like defending yourself, that many times people who are in relationships with narcissists are always explaining themselves. No, no, no, but actually remember, but no, no, no, remember when it, no, there’s no defending. There’s no explaining. You’re never gonna win at that game because narcissists argue like lawyers and so you can’t win.

So don’t bother. There’s no defense.

Anne: This is tip number two for how to deal with a narcissistic husband. At least in our community, we’ve noticed that these narcissistic husbands really enjoy chaos, and they trapped victims into thinking. We need to defend ourselves, when they really just love the energy of the argument. They’re not trying to resolve things, but we are, and they know that.

And so they trap us this way. So when Dr. Ramani says don’t defend yourself, she doesn’t mean, don’t set boundaries or don’t work toward safety. She means they use arguments as a trap. And we talk a lot about this in how to deal with a narcissistic husband workshop. The Living Free Workshop teaches you about what to do to avoid their chaos.

Dr. Ramani: Yeah They like the argument for the sake of the argument. So don’t argue with them. Have the topics that you won’t talk about.

Tip 3 To Survive A Narcissistic Husband: Realistic Expectations

Dr. Ramani: If you do have to spend a lot of time with your narcissistic husband create a little bit of a detox period for yourself. Do something that’s pleasant for you, whether it’s a meditation, a book you like, exercise.

Something. But understand that sadly, once upon a time, you made a choice or a choice was made for you that wasn’t good for you. And for reasons that are important to you, you’re choosing to stay in it. Choose to stay in it with realistic expectations is very different than maintaining unrealistic hope that one day this is going to get better.

This is like, being in Chicago in the dead of February and walking outside in a bathing suit. You’re going to freeze to death. You know that. You live in Chicago. It’s February. You always wear a heavy coat. This is the equivalent of pulling on your coat when you know the weather’s going to be cold. You know it, so you prepare for it.

You don’t walk outside in a bathing suit. It’s the same thing with a narcissistic husband.

Anne: And so this would be tip number three on how to deal with a narcissistic husband. Have realistic expectations.

The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop really covers what is happening so that you can see reality. And so many of our community members have said that The Living Free Workshop helped them to really see reality and that helps women have realistic expectations.

Tip 4 To Survive A Narcissistic Husband: Have Compassion

Dr. Ramani: Yeah exactly you know what, no matter whether you’re stuck in this relationship or you can walk out, please don’t lose your compassion.

Anne: And that’s tip number four to survive a narcissistic husband. Have compassion for yourself because you didn’t know what you didn’t know. I realize I’ve made the mistake of asking so many victims on this podcast. Like, what would you tell yourself if you could go back in time and you knew what you know now. Instead I think I should be asking, ask yourself, if you only knew what you knew, then would you have done anything differently?

That allows for so much compassion because we only knew what we knew and we did the best that we could.

Tip 5 To Survive A Narcissistic Husband: Invest In Good Relationships

Anne: And that leads right into tip number five to survive a narcissistic husband, invest more in good relationships with people who genuinely care about you.

Dr. Ramani: Exactly. Allow other loving spaces to occur in your life.

I don’t mean finding a new partner or finding a lover. I mean friends and family and people close to you. These relationships, people put so much of themselves in it that they get tunnel vision. Sadly, we tend to give 90 percent of ourselves to the most toxic people in our worlds, and then give the 10 percent to all the good ones.

We need to flip that math. Give 90 percent to the good people and give whatever’s left over to these really difficult, toxic people. I think a lot of people blame themselves for these situations.

A Heavy Burden To Carry

Dr. Ramani: The fact of the matter is, we do not do a good job, not as educators, not as a society, not as parents, to teach our daughters to choose healthy partners. So many people didn’t get that lesson.

Yeah, they threw themselves into these relationships with a narcissistic husband and it’s a heavy legacy to carry, but you don’t have to lose the best of yourself.

Dr. Ramani: We all have broader shoulders than we think, and you can carry this burden and see it for what it is, find meaning in that suffering, and cultivate the other meaningful parts of your life.

Our online Narcissistic Husband Support Group meet daily – attend a session today and find a community of women who understand what you’re going through. You don’t have to do this alone.

Here’s how to set boundaries with your emotionally abusive husband.

One of the first steps is to discover which of the 19 different emotional abuse tactics he may be using. To do that, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

https://youtu.be/9aa5bgEY3bY Becoming Free From Emotional Abuse

Victims can use emotional safety strategies with their emotionally abusive husband. To learn these strategies, enroll in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop.

Transcript: How To Set Boundaries With Your Emotionally Abusive Husband

Anne: Many of you are still being gaslit or emotionally abused in your home, the situation is very hard. My prayers are going out to you. During this time, and always Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions are up and running. We have multiple sessions a day. Unlimited live sessions per month. Our coaches are amazing. Attending Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions, you can get to know each of our coaches and see who you relate with.

If group works for you, stay as long as you want. If you feel like you could benefit from individual sessions, see which coach you relate with the best. Check out the session schedule, and you can attend the next session. Which is usually within a few hours. We welcome you, we’re here. And we’re live, we’re honored to have you. We love it when women can feel our support and love face to face online.

Today I’m going to talk about boundaries with your emotionally abusive husband. Because so many women wonder, how do I set boundaries? The purpose of a boundary is to protect you from harm. If the boundary does not protect you from harm. It’s not a good boundary. Or not a boundary at all.

The reason why so many women are confused about boundaries is because traditionally, therapists and other experts set up boundaries this way. You state what you will or will not accept. So you’ll say something like, I will not accept pornography in my home or I will not be lied to. And that is your “boundary.”

Problems with Traditional Boundary Setting

Anne: And then if the boundaries with your husband are crossed, you have to enforce your boundary. That pattern of boundary and then a violation, and then you have to enforce your boundary or then you have to hold your boundary, is problematic. That is what so many therapists or coaches teach, and it is not working for a lot of women. If that model works for you, shine on, right? Keep using it.

But if you’ve been taught that model and you’re like, this is hard. I “set the boundary.” I said, I won’t be lied to, or I won’t be treated this way, or I will not allow this in my house. And then it gets violated. Then you’re like, what do I do now?

If you’re in that boat, I want to teach you a new model for boundaries that is way more practical and makes a lot more sense. So instead of thinking of a boundary as something that you will not tolerate, I want you to think of a boundary as the actual physical or mental thing that protects you from the harm. So if you’re not protected from emotional abuse from your husband, think in your mind, I don’t have a boundary yet.

Because the whole point is to protect you from harm. If you’re not protected, then what? Statements like, you cannot treat me this way, or I will not allow this in my home are just statements. They cannot keep you safe. With a coach or therapist, if you’re doing “boundary work” and making a list of things you will or won’t tolerate, you’re not making a list of boundaries.

A Better Model For Boundaries

Anne: What you are making a list of is safety issues. As you make that safety list, you can write down, I don’t feel safe with someone who lies to me. I don’t feel safe with someone who grooms me through being kind to me when they want to have sex. That is not a list of boundaries. That is a list of safety issues. What matters is that you understand what the safety issues are. You can state a safety issue, but you cannot state a boundary.

Boundaries with your abusive husband are actions. It could just be a mental action, you close your eyes. For example, blocking someone on your phone actually stops them from calling you, texting you or harassing you. Can they call from another number or a blocked number? Yes, they can. But if you make a boundary that you will never answer a number that you don’t recognize, they’ll have to leave a message.

And are they going to leave a verbally abusive message? They might. And then you can block that number. And you can just continue to block numbers. If he continues to lie and manipulate, saying, I won’t talk to him, doesn’t keep you safe. Because every conversation he can lie and manipulate you. Blocking him on your phone, blocking his email, or deleting your social media accounts, that’s an actual boundary. Because it literally protects you from the harm.

Creating More Safety Through Evolving Boundaries

Anne: That seems extreme. You could go for a smaller boundary, like every time he says something abusive, you walk out of the room, let’s say. Or every time he stonewalls, or just looks at his phone and refuses to talk to you, you get up and walk out. Does that protect you from harm? Then you can assess, okay, I set these boundaries with my emotionally abusive husband, which means you actually took action.

So let’s say he’s verbally harassing you in the car, and you turn and look out the window and he stops talking. Did that protect you from harm? The answer to that might be, yeah, it did. He stopped in that moment, great. You can say, okay, that’s a good boundary. I’m going to continue to do that. And as they escalate their abuse, you can escalate your boundaries.

People who don’t know anything about abuse will tell you to tell the perpetrator about the boundary. You actually don’t have to tell your perpetrator at all. This thing where you have to tell the perpetrator, my boundary is no exploitative material in the house. And if you do it in the house, I will ask you to move out. I think that’s completely backwards. If they use it in your house, you don’t have to tell them upfront or decide beforehand. If it happens, you don’t have to give them notice.

Functioning, responsible, mature adults don’t need to be told. If you lie to me, I feel unsafe, so I’ll set a boundary. A functioning adult and mature person would know. The things we want them to do, be honest, not manipulate, not look at exploitative material, not cheat. So then a woman wouldn’t have to figure out if they should stay married after infidelity.

Boundaries Don’t Need An Explanation

Anne: These are basic skills that adults should know. It’s not your responsibility to explain it. If someone tries to make you feel like it is, that’s simply manipulation. To try and get you to communicate with someone who’s not safe enough to communicate with. You can take action and create a barrier to keep you safe, whether he understands it or not.

You don’t have to tell him what it’s for, you don’t have to explain it. So you can be safe. And if he gets it, he gets it. If he doesn’t, he doesn’t. It’s not your responsibility to try and explain it to him.

I read the scriptures this morning, where it talks about the end times. It said, “For the time speedily cometh, that the Lord God shall cause a great division among the people, and the wicked he will destroy and he will spare his people. Even if it so be that he must destroy the wicked by fire and righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins and faithfulness, the girdle of his reins.”

So this division, where the unhealthy are separated from the healthy, is prophesied throughout the scriptures. I did a podcast about boundaries and New Testament scriptures that bring up boundaries. So if you’re a woman of faith and think, well, wait a minute. This lack of communication or separation feels bad. My church doesn’t teach this, isn’t true. There’s evidence throughout the scriptures of the last days that there will be a great division between the wicked and the righteous.

Separating Yourself From Harm

Anne: If you’re seeing wickedness or unhealthiness in your own home. And you’re realizing, I need to separate myself from this. It’s like quarantine. If you have a virus, it’s a public health issue, and you need to stay separated from people who don’t. So you don’t get them sick. Separating yourself from the harm is important, otherwise, you’re going to be harmed. There’s no other way to protect yourself other than separating yourself from it.

So, setting boundaries with your husband is a protective barrier. If you’re in a discussion and they’re not speaking to you with respect, the boundary would actually be walking out of the room. Because if you keep engaging with someone who is harming you, even if you keep telling them, please don’t do this, please stop. But they keep doing it, and you don’t leave, you’ll continue to be harmed. What are you going to do to feel safe in that event?

Women Share Their Experience Setting Boundaries With Their Emotionally Abusive Husband

Anne: And she said, “Well, every time I see him, I’m so triggered that I feel unsafe, so my boundary is that I’m gonna stay with my mom.”

Here’s another one from our community members. She just found out last month that her husband watched exploitative material almost daily or every other day. Of course, all he could say was he was sorry. And she said, “I know he’s sorry, but how does that change anything?” And so my response was, what boundaries would help you feel safe in your own home? Would you feel safer if you slept in another room? Like what actions can you take to protect yourself?

Another example, he lied to you, and then you don’t talk to him. Because if he talks to you, he lies to you. The only way to protect yourself from the injuries his lies cause is not to talk to him anymore. There’s no other way to do it. There’s no way to get him to stop lying. The only thing you can do is separate yourself from someone who is lying.

So to recap, a boundary is a protective barrier. I want to hear your comments and questions. I want to hear your thoughts. You can also comment on this podcast episode below. I always respond to those comments there.

Whether it’s objectifying one human being through domestic abuse or many through trafficking, dehumanizing women is a despicable act. One of the types of exploitation is so common most people don’t know how harmful it is. Anne Basham, CEO of Anti-Trafficking International (ATI), joins Anne to dive deep into the correlations between pornography use, domestic abuse, and human trafficking.

Do you need support? Learn about Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions.

Transcript: Types of Exploitation

Anne: We have Anne Basham on today’s episode. She understands the connection between trafficking and domestic abuse. has worked in both the legislative and executive branches of the federal government, as well as government relations in the private sector. Where she advocated on behalf of human rights such as violence against women, child welfare, human trafficking and genocide. Most recently Ms. Basham was the senior advisor at the Department of Justice for Victims of Crime.

Anne B. helped develop strategies to help victims of human trafficking, assault, and violence against women and children. This is why she is passionate about empowering children, parents, and frontline responders to effectively recognize and respond to human trafficking. Welcome Anne Basham.

Anne B.: Thank you so much for having me.

Anne: Before this episode, we talked a little about how trafficking and grooming intersect with narcissism. And the type of abuse that I talk about on this podcast all the time, all day long, every episode. So as we talk about trafficking, where you see some overlaps.

I would like you to bring that out of the woodwork for our listeners. Since all of our listeners marry, men who exploit women. So I want both of us to remember that. So we can always bring it back to our listeners, and what they can do, and even how it can help them in their own situations.

Intersection Of Types of Exploitation

Anne: Let’s talk about how men groom women to exploit them. Because I talk about grooming on this podcast about what men do to their partners, trying to make them look like a good guy. Talk about grooming in this context

Anne B.: Yeah, so there’s definitely a lot of crossover. So grooming really is conditioning someone to do something that is not within their nature. This can obviously happen in a marriage, as well as in trafficking. That’s one of the crossovers. In human trafficking, there’s a big misconception that human trafficking is mostly someone coming and kidnapping a child off your front lawn.

That is not how trafficking usually happens in America. Usually it’s grooming. It’s a boyfriend at a high school who appears like a wonderful guy. He may appear like a wonderful guy to the parents, he lures her in. And conditions her slowly over time to either do things she doesn’t want to do through coercion or force, or then he threatens her.

Coercion In The Context Of Trafficking

For example, it’s video recording sexual acts and then threatening to put them on the internet, or show them to peers. It could be physical threats of violence against her or her family. It’s really through coercion, fraud or force. But it happens through the mechanism almost always of grooming instead of straight kidnapping.

Anne: That’s super important for our listeners. I have talked to many women in our community who have been filmed by their husband and experienced marital coercion. For example, he put a camera in the shower and then uploaded it to the internet for money. Or filmed them secretly. So if she never finds out about it, is that still considered trafficking?

https://youtu.be/Cnda4Lcrb0A Legal Definitions Of Exploitation

Anne B.: The definition of trafficking is, it involves money. Trafficking uses fraud or coercion, then attaches money to it. For example, you can be groomed in different situations. But when it’s trafficking, you’re exchanging goods. The underpinning of trafficking is greed. Think of it like drug trafficking, it’s very similar. How can we monetize a person as a product and get money for them, and that’s what’s underneath.

Anne: So if a man secretly films his wife in the shower or in other private moments, and puts it on the internet and sells it as mainstream pornography. That would be trafficking?

Anne B.: That’s a really interesting question. If he films it with the intent of making money, that can cross the line into trafficking. Trafficking by definition has to do with an exchange of money. Legally, for it to be trafficking, there must be a sexual act.

So if she’s in the shower and he videos her, puts it on the internet and sells it, it’s probably illegal. But it’s not technically trafficking. If however, he videos her in an act with him, and then puts it on the internet with the intent to make money, it’s trafficking.

Anne: So if I were a trafficking husband’s defense attorney, I would say “Well he didn’t mean to make money. That wasn’t the intent”, and I would get off.

Anne B.: I don’t know if you’d get off or not. It’s up to the attorneys. It’s definitely a gray area, but if it can be proven that it was videoed and then intended to make money off of it in any way. Then that crosses the line. And the legal definition is coercion, fraud or force.

Exploitation and Domestic Abuse

Anne B.: So if that video is used in a coercive way, it’s also crossing a line.

Anne: Interesting. So it sounds like we need a little stronger laws on the books in terms of men filming their wives and putting it on the internet. Many women come and say my husband filmed me, he put it online. I don’t know what to do. And they’re trying to figure out if I save my marriage or not. I want to be like you’ve got a serious abuser on your hands if that has happened to you.

Anne B.: Oh yeah, absolutely. The issue is, if I can just go down that road, is that it primes someone to think exploitation is acceptable. There’s a huge link, and it’s not discussed enough. Fortunately, people are talking about it much more. But it used to be, oh no pornography is something innocent. If people willingly exploit people to make it or exploit people they view, what’s the issue? The answer is in the question.

Just to give you a quick understanding of trafficking: there are the traffickers, and those are the people selling the victims. And then there are people called recruiters, who could be teenagers in high school. Think of it in terms of drug trafficking. You have people who sell the drugs, you have the supplier who gives them the drugs. They think of usually girls the same way. So the target age I should say of a person who’s trafficked is actually 11 to 15. But it goes up to 25.

Exploiter’s Mindset

Anne B.: The mindset is similar to a narcissist. I worked at the Department of Justice, I met with a man who spent his life working on reforms in the criminal justice system. He writes books. He’s a leader at a college. And he said to me point blank on the phone that the connection between an abuser in a domestic violence relationship and a human trafficker are the same. Exploitation and men who use coercive control are linked.

It’s just in one case they do it with one person, and in the other they do it with many people and for money. So that was interesting to hear from him, because he said that to me at the beginning of a meeting. But I will tell you that traffickers target their victims. It’s a lot of mind games. So that’s a lot of similarities that you’ll see with some of your listeners. You don’t see many people who are purchasing the victims.

Exploitative media conditions your brain and what you see on the screen.

It’s even more violent, it’s not always consensual. And every time someone consumes it, their brain has a dopamine hit. So when their brain gets that dopamine hit, what happens? They want the next. There’s a woman on our board of directors, and she is an expert in addiction. She explained to me that it’s more difficult to break a sex addiction than any other addiction, because you carry your sexuality everywhere you go.

Exploitation: The Motivation Of Domestic Abuse

Anne: I think the thing that’s hard for wives of these men to wrap their heads around is that this is an abuser, their husband is toxic. So even if he has an “addiction”, it’s domestic abuse to you. His addiction is an addiction for him, he has the addiction. What you have is an abusive man. It’s important to know that this is directly tied to domestic abuse. Someone willing to lie, manipulate, narcissistic abuse or covert abuse. If someone is that type of abuser, and he’s a man, then he is likely to use exploitative media.

So many women will say he didn’t use exploitative media, but he lied, he manipulated, he did all these other things. In the back of my mind, I’m always thinking, it’s so easy to hide. You can use it on your phone. It doesn’t smell. It’s not like a drug or like alcohol, where you can smell it on your breath. It’s very easy for someone to hide this from their spouse forever, and they never find out about it.

Anne B.: Oh absolutely, I completely agree.

Anne: There’s this sense that a human being is not really human. That they’re a drug. That they are bought or sold and can be manipulated. In the case of a husband, it’s more like she’s a tool. She can do my laundry, do my dishes, and give me it. These are the things that she is good for. And I’m going to use her for those things. Rather than actually seeing her as a partner.

Coercion: How Abuser’s Exploit

Anne B.: Absolutely, that’s the core of it. That was what I think this man at the Department of Justice was trying to get at, is that the core mindset is objectification of the person. They objectify the person they marry, or they objectify the victim through trafficking. That’s the similar element. It’s a piece of property. Exploitative men who do it are modern day slavers. Because it’s slavery.

People can’t get out. They’re literally trapped. They’re stuck in that situation that always starts with seeing someone as property and not seeing them as equal to yourself in value or worth.

Anne: Something you said reminded me of our listeners. You said traffickers play mind games with their victims. To get them to the point where the victim is willing to do something they normally wouldn’t be willing to do.

Exploiters play mind games with the victim to manufacture her consent. She would say, “Yeah, I gave consent.” She doesn’t realize all the mind games she’s experienced, manipulation and all the coercion. She actually thinks she gives her consent, when she is manipulated and coerced. Is that accurate?

Anne B.: Yes, absolutely.

Anne: When I say this relates to our listeners, there’s nothing more consensual than saying yes to getting married. People don’t realize she was manipulated and coerced. And says yes, but she is to, manipulated, and coerced. People think that if you give your consent, it’s not abuse. They don’t realize that people are abused into giving their “consent” when they’re actually not giving consent at all.

Trafficking Victims’ Security

Anne B.: Oh absolutely. Coercion can happen in any form. It may not fit the legal definition of trafficking, because there may not be an exchange of money, but people can be coerced. Previously in my career, I worked in violence against women. That is often the case, that it actually kept them literally trapped in the relationship. We also see that in trafficking.

Interestingly, victims oftentimes are in safe houses and have not just normal locks, but real security at these facilities. I remember when I first visited, I thought, oh this must be to keep the traffickers out. No, it’s not to keep the traffickers out. It’s usually to help keep the victims in, especially if they’re under 18. They don’t want to be trafficked. They’re glad to be out.

But simultaneously, there is this feeling that they have to return. Because there’s enormous fear, and I see that all the time with the commonality of narcissism.

Anne: Let’s talk about the types of exploitation in your community. Because many people think of trafficking as if your child got trafficked, so you never saw them again. But from what you’re saying, your child is trafficked right under your nose while they’re still living in your home.

Anne B.: Yes, the woman who actually heads up our parent coalition, her daughter, was trafficked right out of her own home. So here in wealthy Fairfax County, one of the wealthiest counties in the country, right outside of Washington D.C., parents were married in all of those circumstances.

Anne: So what you’re saying is that this is not who you imagine as trafficked.

Trafficking: Exploiters Are Deceptive

Anne B.: No, this is not who you may imagine being trafficked. And I will tell you this woman has come forward and is public with her story. But I know of plenty of these scenarios that are not public and will never be shared publicly for the protection of the daughter’s identity. You know who is involved in the family. Let me tell you there are names that your listeners would recognize, and their children have been victims even out of private schools.

Which is shocking to people, like how could this happen to people with intact families? The profile of what we think fits a trafficking victim isn’t always there. I will say that victims can be compassionate and kind. And actually, some of the greatest strengths are some of the things perceived as weaknesses.

Anne: When you say the victims aren’t always what you think or not what you think at all, that’s also true of the traffickers I’m assuming. But you’d think, oh a trafficker is supposed to look this way. He’s not supposed to wear a white shirt and tie. He doesn’t go to church and he doesn’t have a good job. And I don’t think that’s the case either. Right, so many traffickers look like an upstanding member of society.

Anne B.: So there’s the traffickers and especially the recruiters So sometimes they are gang related but not always. And the recruiters often are very charming, I will say most of the time these people are very charming.

Love Bombing, Trafficking, and Recruitment Tactics Of Exploitative Men

Anne B.: They can do a lot of the love bombing, which I’m sure your listeners are familiar with. What love bombing is, where they shower them with gifts, flattery, and attention and fill all those needs. And through the love bombing, the victim just says this person is so wonderful. They’re getting all their dopamine hits, wow, this person’s just checking all my boxes. Unfortunately, the trafficker or recruiter knows this. And so absolutely, they don’t fit a certain profile.

And I will say with that, to the buyers, one of the most interesting things to me is that you have the people selling it. Who’s buying these girls? Who is the consumer of exploitation? That’s what I feel the focus should be. I don’t have the source of the statistic in front of me, so I’m not going to state the statistic explicitly, but it’s a real statistic that a large percentage of the buyers.

And so I don’t want to say the number, because I don’t have it in front of me. But a large percentage of victims’ buyers are white evangelical males, and I believe that’s because there’s a huge link to exploitative media. And so I would encourage your listeners, because I know most of them are coming out of some form of abuse. If there is abuse in your marriage, I would really have your wits about you.

Religious Abuse & Maintaining Control

Anne: This is a scary thing. I would say most of our listeners are women of faith. But some of them aren’t. We have agnostics that listen, and atheists that listen, and we’re interfaith and inter paradigm. So everyone is welcome here. But I think the thing that shocks the Christian listeners is that they thought they were a righteous man because he attends church, and because he can quote the Bible and other things.

And wrapping their heads around the fact that those are grooming tactics that he is using to maintain power. Because there is power in the church. If you’re a righteous man, that is alarming. It’s hard to understand. That like yes, Jesus is there, and yes, Jesus can save people. But in this case, your husband isn’t going to church to worship or be a better person, he’s actually there to maintain power.

Anne B.: Let me address that, because that’s an important point. You’re absolutely right. Some of the worst stories of trafficking I’ve heard over the years, and the ones that went on the longest, the person was very religious. And I don’t just mean Judeo-Christian. They could be any religion and just very religious. I’ve heard this from many religions, because with faith, I’m also a person of faith. You get all the wonderful elements that provide morality.

A purpose in life and an explanation of basically why we’re here. But as with anything, there’s an opportunity for someone to come in and manipulate it. And basically hijack religion in the name of control.

Hijacking Of Religion For Power

Anne B.: And it is a hijack. It’s not the intent, but the hijack of religion in the name of control. And so unfortunately, exactly what you’re talking about happens. They appear as a wonderful wise person, a wise religious leader. And in reality, they are using that as an abuse of power.

Anne: The most common example is a so-called righteous man maintaining control in his own home. And some religions explicitly say he’s supposed to do that. He’s the head of the household, and he’s supposed to call all the shots. And women are supposed to submit to that. That gets scary for abuse victims, I think, because they have their abuser manipulating them. But then they feel like the tenets of their faith are also fighting against them getting help.

Anne: One of my goals is to help women of faith see that God loves you. He does not want you to be abused. These things being used to abuse you are not true. They’re not part of the gospel of Jesus Christ, they’re not part of any healthy religion. They’re simply abuse used to oppress you.

Jesus’ Teachings On Protecting The Vulnerable

Anne B.: As a Christian specifically, I will tell you that if we take just Christianity for example. And we just look at the Bible. Jesus made it so clear. And if you say, for example, just in the Christian religion. If you say you’re a Christian, what does that mean? You’re supposed to be a follower of Christ. Well, what Jesus said over and over is that he looks out for women, the victims, and vulnerable.

Those were the people he helped, and even the intent. So in the U.S. law, and this is just U.S. law. When you go to a court, they say to you, “What’s the language and what’s the intent?” That’s how everything works. Okay, what’s the language of the law, but what’s the intent of the law? And the same actually holds true, especially in the Bible itself. Not just what’s the language, but what was the intent.

You know, when Jesus said to the Pharisees words on divorce, it always comes down to what was the intent. Because even in the New Testament, they look back at the Old Testament. And King David is praised for breaking laws by feeding his own soldiers out of forbidden bread from the temple. So he took forbidden bread from the temple and fed his soldiers because they were in a crisis. They needed food, and he was praised for “breaking the law.” Because what was the intent of the law?

Who Do Exploitative Men Target?

Anne B.: The intent of the law was to save people. The intent of the law was always to protect people, to save people. It was never for us to just serve the law.

Anne: It certainly wasn’t used to oppress. Especially your wife, we’ve talked a little bit about who exploiters target. You’re saying these are women, girls, and boys sometimes who you would not expect. Who are coming from affluent families or other situations. You don’t typically think of for victims. So let’s talk more about that, who do traffickers target, and what are the misconceptions?

Anne B.: Technically anyone could become a victim of human trafficking, but they generally target certain ages. So like I said, age 11 to 15, which is shockingly young, is the prime target for most human trafficking victims. But it can range all the way up to age 25. The second thing is girls are targeted more than boys. Boys are targeted too, absolutely, but it is mostly girls.

One of the other factors is perceived vulnerability, either social isolation or weakness. Like I said, it doesn’t mean that doesn’t happen across the board. One of the biggest misconceptions is that people think this can’t happen to my kid. And I say it over and over, “Yes, it absolutely can happen to your child.” So when I say perceived forms of weakness, that can be even positive. Sometimes perceived forms of weakness could be someone who is just extra compassionate.

How Do Exploiters Trick Victims?

Anne B.: Sometimes it’s a girl who wants a boyfriend. And why would that be her fault? Because often the exploiters deceive her this way.

And he comes along and sweeps her off her feet. The last thing is appealing to flattery. One of the biggest ways girls can be lured in is through flattery. It’s by the simple phrase, you look like a model, you look so beautiful. Do you want to be a model? I don’t know if your audience wants to watch it, but there’s a video on Netflix called Hot Girls Wanted. It’s a documentary on how girls get lured through grooming, and starts with, “Hey, we want models.” And they get lured away.

Exploitation Prevention Through Education

Anne B.: Almost all funding for human trafficking in the United States goes towards after care. So most people don’t realize we are third in the world for human trafficking in the United States. Which is shockingly high. And then of that, most funding and resources in America go for after someone is recovered. Only 1% of victims of human trafficking victims are ever recovered.

From my perspective, and your audience can attest to that, I’ve never met a victim who didn’t sit there and say to themselves, “I wish I’d known,” fill in the blank. “Maybe I could have,” fill in the blank. Because it’s not their fault, but they play this guessing game, I wish I hadn’t fallen down the hole. You know, I wish I had known to avoid this.

And so, what our organization does is focus heavily on the prevention side. We want to stop human trafficking before it starts. We have various programs, but every one of them is very, very focused on prevention. And our main programs actually have to do with education. So I know you mentioned earlier, but my master’s is in education. I am just a firm, firm believer that education is truly the best form of prevention.

Because when we know better, we do better across the board. And we can avoid things for lack of knowledge. People do perish, but with good knowledge, people can avoid horrible horrible things. And so we focus on the prevention side. Because Benjamin Franklin said it best, “An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.” For all the resources available.

Reframing Exploitative Media As Abuse

Anne B.: I’ve met these trafficking victims. If you sat across from one of them, eyeball to eyeball. You would want to pour everything you could into making sure that person never had to go through that in the first place. That they never had to experience any of that, or have their little girl dreams just ripped up to shreds.

Anne: That’s interesting, you say that. I also have a master’s degree in education. It’s my main goal in life. To be like, this isn’t just an addiction issue where you can be like, oh okay honey, I love you. I’m going to support you while you go to 12 step. You have an abuser in your home and you need to act accordingly.

This is a serious thing. And can he change, sure, will he change? I don’t know, but you need to get to safety and wait from a safe distance, and know what safety looks like. Know what you’re looking for to be safe. Not just take his word for it that he stopped using this explotiative content.

My goal is to ensure that those young women don’t end up marrying these narcissistic abusers in the first place. That is so good. The prevention aspect of this is really important, as our listeners think about my daughter or son. How can I better safeguard him or her? What would you recommend for how to safeguard children from exploitation or trafficking?

Safeguarding Children From Exploitation

Anne B.: Well, the first thing is as a parent, really just educating yourself in various ways. It’s eye opening. I spoke to a PTA locally. And was told behind the scenes there was one woman, who basically got on because it was part of the PTA. She wasn’t sure she even wanted to get on.

She told my friend, “I don’t need to hear this.” She was more engaged and shocked by the information, because she truly didn’t think it could happen to her kid. And my goal, as a parent and someone, like I said, who has an education background. Is to equip parents first and foremost. Number one thing is that parents need education, and then pass that information along to your kids.

We have a resource on our website that’s actually a parenting tool. You can download totally for free, and it is a guide for you to talk to your kids about this. Because I know it’s a difficult thing to talk about, but it’s a great door opener to talking about narcissism and all sorts of other qualities that we look for in the people that we date.

Because that’s one of the key things to discuss is what qualities we look for. And what are those red flags that we look for in a relationship?

Ethical Issues With Exploitative Media

Anne: Some of the things that our listeners grapple with are. How “bad” is my husband? Is he a good guy who can stop? Is our marriage okay? Do I need to file for divorce yesterday? They have these questions. They’re trying to navigate. Can you talk really quick about the progression to consuming child abuse material? Why anytime someone uses exploitative media, it’s serious.

Anne B.: As I mentioned, it can progress to that in some cases. What’s even available on the internet is shocking to women.

Anne: Rather than saying an escalation of the addiction, I would say an escalation of the abuse. If we ever do run into victims in exploitative media and they say I’m so proud to be exploited in this way.

Hollywood Exploitation

It reminds me of myself when I was so “proud” of my husband, who was in recovery for addiction. And I would prop him up as like he’s in recovery, and he’s doing so well, and I’m so proud of him. For overcoming all the problems he had as a kid and all this stuff, right. Not knowing that I was manipulated. So I thought that was true, but it wasn’t true. So I was standing up in front of people talking about my amazing husband who had overcome all these things.

He had manipulated me into saying that. So when these women were the centerfold and proud of it, we can’t know exactly what took her there to think that that was a good thing.

Because I thought it was a good thing until my whole world started falling apart. I’ve read three articles lately. One about Selma Hayek, one about Sharon Stone and one about Jennifer Love Hewitt about coercion. Just in the R-rated movies they were in. They were so excited to be this lead in a movie, and they showed up on the set. They didn’t expect a exploitative scene, and they are forced to do it by the director and a bunch of men standing around.

And all three of them, Jennifer Love Hewitt, Sharon Stone and Salma Hayek, say it was traumatic. They were misled with words like that, they were coerced. And so just with a regular R-rated movie where you think this woman was paid like she’s on this poster. Everybody knows she’s in it. They wouldn’t think she was coerced into doing these types of scenes in those movies.

Exploitation On Movie Sets

Anne B.: But it’s hard, they pay them. Think about it, you have a contract, people standing around, and you don’t know all the details. And then someone stands there and says you need to do X, Y or Z. And it’s very easy to stand on the outside and judge. I hear it all the time, well why didn’t they just say no, or why didn’t they just… Don’t judge until you have literally walked through this, because it is subtle.

Anne: Yeah, and that’s “just” a movie. I’m realizing now there was one more It was Amelia Clark from Game of Thrones. She too was surprised that she’d need to show her breasts, and she was upset about it. But she said “She didn’t have a big enough name and all these people were standing around.” And they said, “Well, if you won’t do this we need an actress who will and you’ll lose your job.” That’s coercion.

I’m grateful that women in Hollywood are now starting to talk about this and write articles about it. So we know Amelia Clark had this problem, because there’s an article about it in CNN. More and more women are saying, “Wait a minute, no, no and no.”

And also after the fact, when we realize that wait, my whole marriage was a sham. I was groomed from the beginning, and he never truly cared about me as a person. He was never a partner, he just wanted to use me. Now I know the truth. We’re trying to share that with other women, so that we can all stay safe. Whether it’s in Hollywood, whether it’s in our own relationships or how we can keep our kids safe, obviously.

Signs Of Exploitation

Anne: This is all exploitation on every front. As you know, all of our listeners are in relationships with men who use exploitative media, lie, manipulate, narcissistically abuse, emotionally abuse, psychologically abuse, and coercion. Oh my word, that’s way too many things I just said. But they’re all dealing with that in their own homes.

Can you talk about the signs of exploitation? Like there might be a listener who doesn’t know she’s being exploited.

Anne B.: Yeah, so some signs of exploitation can be changes in someone’s appearance. Their grades are slipping, some of their physical features. Just to tie it in to your listeners, especially, you know. I worked with victims of violence against women, as well as our organization called the Just Ask Prevention Project. It’s so important to ask people.

It started because there was a victim trafficked for three years. Her grades were slipping, her appearance had changed. She was in counseling because of it. She was seeing doctors, you know, people were addressing it, but they were addressing all the signs, all the symptoms. And I’m sure your listeners can relate to that. You see things happen from the outside, and only the symptoms are addressed.

Anne: Well, they don’t know what the source is, right? So they’re in marriage counseling because they think it’s a communication problem, or they think oh, I just need breast implants because my boobs aren’t as big as my neighbors.

Anne B.: Exactly!

Asking the Right Questions About Exploitation

Anne B.: And so all these signs and symptoms are coming up. Your listeners here, in a friend or anyone. Just ask, just ask them, could your husband be using exploitative content? Is there anyone forcing you, is anyone coercing you? If you have a child specifically or someone younger, you can ask targeted questions about whether this is exploitation. This girl opens up as with the right questions.

But she was never asked the right questions. And I know for so many victims they will speak up, but they won’t speak up until the right questions are asked. And I know that sometimes, it’s hard to even ask your husband these questions, because I mean, do we want to know?

Anne: Well, but he’ll also lie to you. So asking him’s not really gonna help. So if you say, hey, are you filming me and then putting it on the internet for money? He’s not gonna say yes. That is the same with abuse. People don’t realize they’re abused, and then when someone asks them some specific questions or helpful questions. Then you can help them see it. We can assume that many trafficking victims don’t actually realize they’re being trafficked.

And help them by asking questions, or maybe by educating them a little bit. Which is hard to do. I realize that it feels like, oh wait, this is none of my business. I ask that person, is someone forcing you to do something that makes you feel uncomfortable? From personal experience, having asked people some very difficult questions, like oh, is your husband raping you?

Encouraging Victims To Speak Up

Anne: It has been amazing how well it has gone. And I know that sounds crazy. And if it doesn’t go well, at least you did what you could to help that person. I’m always a fan of people who out of compassion and care for people do their best to help. And I think people can see that, and I hope they can. And if they get mad, they get mad, but at least you tried. That’s my opinion.

Anne B.: Absolutely, I agree at the core we all want to be known. And we’ve even talked to women who lead ministries or are leaders in other capacities. I’ve talked to men who are leaders at church. And I think one of the biggest things is not just to address the signs and symptoms, but also to dive deep. And say, “Have you considered maybe your partner exploits you?” Then going there with that victim. You know, maybe she thinks it, but no one’s actually asked her.

They’ve just said to her, “Hey, why don’t you go into counseling?” or “Why don’t you go to a doctor and take some medication if you’ve got some anxiety?” But she feels something’s wrong, and she’s not addressing it. She has this strong sense, but she needs the courage of someone else to come there and ask those pointed questions.

Because I think those pointed questions give people courage. They think about things. They’ve probably wondered themselves and never had the courage to go there.

Anne: Or maybe I must just be crazy. My husband’s fine, nice, and we go to church. He always initiates family prayer. I’m just being crazy.

Recognizing Exploitation In Marriage

Anne B.: I have a friend. This woman had gone all over speaking and wasn’t hiding what was going on with her husband. And she tells this pastor behind the scenes about what is going on. The man said to her, “Have you considered this is abuse?” And she initially said, “Oh no, no.”

But it takes that first person to say, “Have you considered this could be abuse, have you considered this could be exploitation?”

Anne: And I love you, dear listeners, which is why I’m asking these hard questions and asking you to ask these hard questions. Hoping that we’ll all make our way to safety together as a healthy army of women, which is exciting to me. It’s exciting that more and more women are becoming educated about these issues of exploitation and can teach their children and talk to their friends, because that’s what’s gonna get us out of this mess.

Anne B. I appreciate you coming on today’s episode. You have such a wealth of knowledge. Thank you so much.

If you’re wondering, “What does the bible say about narcissistic abuse?” Here’s a list of scriptures that will help you know what to do next.

To know if you’re one of the 19 different types of narcissistic abuse, take our free emotional abuse test.

Transcript: What Does The Bible Say About Narcissistic Abuse?

Anne: I am honored to have Leslie Vernick on today’s episode. Welcome, Leslie. We will talk about what does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse.

Leslie: Thanks Anne for having me. I’m so excited to be part of your podcast today. It’s been a personal journey to figure out what God’s word really says. Can you break up with somebody as a Christian, or are you obligated to be in a relationship with a narcissistic abuser for the rest of your life? And so I’ve had to personally struggle with those questions. And work to get rid of the guilt and learn to do what God says.

As Christian women, we’re taught James 3:2. We all struggle in many ways, we’re all broken, we all fail, and so who am I to say your sin is worse than mine? Who am I to judge your actions as abusive? And traditionally in the church, we have not even allowed the categories of sexual abuse or narcissistic abuse in marriage. It’s only if he hits you. Maybe it can be considered abuse, but probably you deserved it.

You aggravated him, pushed his buttons or triggered him. And so maybe you should stop doing that. He wouldn’t hit you.

Anne: Many people think when we say the word safety, that we’re talking about, he doesn’t punch you in the face. But we’re talking about emotional safety. What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse?

Leslie: I love that the Bible actually talks about the importance of safety, especially in marriage. The verse in Proverbs 31 where it says her husband trusts her to do him good, not harm all the days of his life. That is safety. That’s the rock bottom foundation. And so safety is an important quality to God in relationships.

Common Lies & Misconceptions

Leslie: He created our bodies to react negatively if we’re unsafe. So that we go to safety. But his lies, I’ll just give you some of the most common ones. It’s my fault he acts this way. So if only I were more sexual, adventurous, quieter, more submissive, more beautiful, had bigger boobs or whatever it is. It’s somehow her fault. I just need to try harder. I’m not loving him enough. I’m not doing enough to make this relationship work.

God hates divorce. I married him for better, for worse, and suffering and sacrifice are Christian virtues that I must embrace to keep my family together. What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? And that’s a lot of theology, but I think that’s common in women of faith. Whether it’s the Catholic faith or the evangelical Christian faith. Church tell us it’s somehow our duty. And virtuous to sacrifice ourselves to keep our family together.

Anne: So many abusers accuse their victim of being unsafe for them. Like if you were safe enough, I would tell you the truth. But you shame me, and all it is is manipulation. And so that confuses the victim, because she’s like, am I not safe enough? How can I become more “safe” for this man who says it’s my fault he’s not treating me well?

Leslie: Well, he’s going to use this language that he’s going to hear in the therapeutic environment of safety. But he will twist it. So what he’s saying is, if I don’t have a carte blanche to do what I want, it’s somehow her fault. Life doesn’t work that way. But that’s the mindset of the abusers.

Manipulation & Gaslighting

Leslie: Of course, it’s not safe for me to tell you the truth, because I’m going to get in trouble and have consequences. It’s not harmful to hold someone accountable, or to expect them to tell you the truth. When the doctor says, I have bad news for you. You have lung cancer. You have liver cancer. He’s not telling us that to harm us. He’s telling us to help us.

If you tell your husband, your pornography use is ruining my attraction to you, or your pornography use is not okay with me. I don’t want my husband preferring women on the internet to his own wife. When he cheats on you and he lies to you, that’s harming you and your marriage is a big difference.

Anne: Another word for harm is abuse in that context.

Leslie: Yes.

Anne: The pornography addiction recovery movement, they have this whole thing around, don’t shame him. Be safe for him to tell you. They’re putting all the pressure for him to feel good about himself on her. When he doesn’t feel good about himself. Because of what he does and the choices he makes.

Leslie: You’re absolutely right, Anne. If she’s muzzled and not allowed to share the impact of how that’s harmed her, because it hurts his feelings or upsets him.

Anne: All it is is manipulation. What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? It talks about safety and departing from wickedness.

Leslie: Exactly, and then what happens is the woman starts to feel like, what’s wrong with me that I can’t get over this? What’s wrong with me that I don’t want to kiss him anymore?

Living Free Workshop: What Does The Bible Say About Narcissistic Abuse?

Leslie: What’s wrong with me that he gives me the creeps? I’m a bad person, so she starts to assume that shame.

Anne: And that’s exactly what he wants, because then he can continue to exploit her. And so I wrote the Living Free Workshop as an alternative to communicating with someone who will use your communication to manipulate you further. To learn more, click on that link.

Leslie: Absolutely, his work is to decide what kind of man he wants to be.

Anne: Yes, I went through that myself, and observed from a safe distance. That was painful for me to sit back and watch those decisions be made. And think, wow, that is who he is and who he’s choosing to be.

Leslie: Yes, the most important thing is to focus on getting as healthy and strong as possible. So you’re not clinging to him like a beggar saying, please love me and please don’t leave me. And I’m too scared to be on my own. That you’re becoming the person your kids need, and that you’re going to like at the end of the day.

No woman gets married with the idea that I’m going to get divorced, especially people of faith. What does the Bible say about divorce? That for better or worse, the covenant and sanctity of marriage are all important values that we hold dear. However, when there’s no safety, the marriage relationship is dead, even if you stay legally married after infidelity. And it’s sad, and it’s awful, but we need a death certificate so that we can move on. God acknowledges that in the scriptures.

The Reality Of Unsafe Marriages

Leslie: What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? In Malachi, it says I hate when a man trades his wife in for a younger model. I hate when you treat your wife treacherously. God hates that patriarchal culture of those days. But I think God is aware that you can’t make a relationship work with everybody. Even Jesus, who was perfect, couldn’t make his relationship with Judas work. Judas went and did what he wanted to do.

Anne: I had an epiphany about the three temptations of Christ when Satan’s like, throw yourself off a building. And I think he was tempting him with contention. I don’t think he was actually tempting him with throwing himself off a building. And if I had been in that scenario, I’d be like, Satan, you’re so stupid. Why would I throw myself off a building? And I would completely fall into the temptation of an argument.

Leslie: The interesting thing about that whole temptation is that Satan used scripture. And I think this is important for your audience Anne, because people, pastors, your mother, your father, your husband will use scripture to try to get you confused.

Jesus used scripture back to Satan. And that’s why it’s so important for us to know what God says about these things, because we can get spiritually abused. Narcissistic abusers use scripture to manipulate you. But the message Jesus is giving people is to empower them not to lose their dignity in a humiliating situation where someone’s trying to destroy your dignity.

Verbal & Emotional Abuse

Leslie: What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? The Bible is clear about certain kinds of abuse. In Colossians and Ephesians, Paul talks about abusive speech. Let no abusive speech come out of your mouth. James talks about abusive speech. It talks about reckless words pierced like a sword. And Proverbs talks about the damage of a relational betrayal. Psalms says your insults have broken my heart, and I am distraught.

So there’s a huge impact of verbal abuse on someone’s soul, spirit, and body. Any kind of abuse, chronic adultery and anger addictions are not marriage problems. Especially if you’re trying to figure out how to deal with an angry husband. They cause marriage problems, but they’re individual issues, and marriage counseling can’t solve them. When you have a husband who blames you for when he does those things, and then you go to counseling, and somehow you’re supposed to fix him and keep him from acting out in those abusive ways.

Women should understand narcissistic abuse. Whenever another person controls you, where you are no longer free to say, no, I don’t like this. Or this is what I want, or this is what I don’t want, or this is who I am, and this isn’t who I am. When someone’s trying to objectify you into someone in their image, instead of helping you become who you’re supposed to be. That is very destructive to your growth and character as a person.

But also when someone is totally indifferent to your needs, your wants, your cares, your hurts. And they’re just living for themselves, it’s saying to you, you don’t matter. You don’t matter at all. You’re married to someone who says you don’t matter.

Objectification In Relationships: What Does The Bible Say About Narcissistic Abuse?

Leslie: So it’s a relationship of object to person, like my cell phone. I love my cell phone as long as it does whatever I want, right? But, if my cell phone should say, I’m not going to work today because I’m tired. I’m like, get rid of this cell phone. I’ll find another cell phone, right? Because when you have an objective relationship with someone, you might say you love it, as long as it completely meets your needs.

But once it stops meeting your needs, it is disposable. And so many women are in these relationships with narcissistic men who objectify them. As long as you revolve your whole life around making me happy and making my life easy. And never cross me, and never disagree with me, and never bother me or ask me for anything. Just give, give, give to me. I’ll be somewhat nice to you. But if you ever want something that I have to sacrifice for you, forget it.

It’s not going to happen. And somehow they’re supposed to keep this relationship going when a healthy relationship requires mutuality and reciprocity. Women long for their husband to value them, but what I say is that the person who has to value you right now is you. What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? It says every living thing is important to God.

Documenting & Recognizing Gaslighting

Leslie: You encourage people to document to help them see that they’re being gaslighted. Because they can go back and say, wait a minute yesterday or two days ago, two weeks ago, he did say this. And he did say he would do this, and now he’s saying he never said it. But he did say it, because I remember writing it down. And I can prove to myself, even though I’m not going to convince him.

He’s going to lie and cover up and tell me I’m nuts, but I’m documenting my own sanity so that I can see that this is gaslighting or crazy making. Facts are really, really helpful. What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? God calls us to live in truth and reality. That’s why the patterns are so important for you to pay attention to.

Let me just give you a quick illustration. I was teaching my pastors at my church, I said, okay, so let’s say someone was texting and they crashed into your car. And pulled out of the parking lot. They weren’t paying attention. And they jumped out of the car. They said, pastor, I am so sorry I crashed into your car and it was an accident. I didn’t mean it, but you know, the Bible says love covers a multitude of sins.

And love keeps no record of wrongs. And I’m so glad you’re the pastor, because I know you’ll forgive me, bye. All the pastors laughed and they said, We would never let that happen. I said, and so let’s say he did it next Sunday and the Sunday after that. Even if you were gracious the first Sunday, and he kept doing it over and over again, you’d say, do not come back to this church.

Christian Teachings & Misinterpretations

Leslie: But our Christian teaching said, your husband can act like the devil, but you’re supposed to pretend like he’s Superman. Like you’re supposed to praise him, encourage him, and build him up. And never say, wait a minute, you’re acting like a fool. I’m not doing this. So a husband can drive a family straight off the cliff. And a wife is supposed to submit, smile, and trust God. That’s just not reality, nor does God ask her to do that.

And so they feel entitled. Especially in marriage, I’m entitled to sex whenever I want. It doesn’t matter how I treated you. Your body is not your own, and they’ll use scripture to confuse a woman. I’m entitled to get out of consequences because you have to forgive me. I’m entitled to have my cake and eat it too. And I’m entitled to hurt you. That’s why it’s so crazy that betrayal trauma counselors would involve a wife.

It’s not possible, it’s impossible. Even if you wanted to. Let’s say your husband is a diabetic. And you feel sorry for him, and you want to help him manage his diabetes. So you’re gonna cook right, and you’re gonna buy all the right food, and you’re gonna do everything. And, you know, count his carbs and do all that, and you see him on the couch eating Doritos and donuts. You can’t make someone do what they don’t want to do.

Anne: He lies to manipulate you so you think, of course he doesn’t want to act like this. He’s an addict, broken and experienced childhood abuse. He’s a really good guy. He doesn’t want to do this. What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? It says tell the truth.

Entitlement & Manipulation: What Does The Bible Say About Narcissistic Abuse?

Anne: He just keeps doing it accidentally or something. Like, I don’t know. You’re trying to figure it out. He wants you to believe he doesn’t want to do it. And that he’s fighting demons or struggling. That’s the mark of a truly manipulative man is that he continues to do the behavior while making you think he doesn’t want to do it. If he didn’t want to do it, he wouldn’t have done it in the first place. Like, have you ever solicited a prostitute? No, because you didn’t want to.

Leslie: When he’s sorrowing like that, when he’s, Oh, I’m so horrible and blah, blah, listen to what he’s sorrowing about. Because usually it’s not about who he is. It’s not like he’s saying, I’ve been a liar. I’ve been a cheater. I don’t want to be that kind of man. I want to be a good husband. He’s not saying that. What he’s saying is, I can’t believe you’ll leave me. I’ll be all by myself. How am I going to make it without you? I’m not going to have my …

He’s sorrowing over the consequences. He’s not sorrowing over his character. So that would be one big red flag that would help you discern where he’s at. What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? There’s this interesting story in the Old Testament, where Naaman had leprosy, and was told Elisha could cure him of his leprosy, he was not a Jew. he goes to Elisha’s house And he bangs on the door, and Elisha doesn’t even answer the door.

He says, man of Israel, come out and help me. I have leprosy. The King of Israel told me that you would heal me.

Victim Blaming

Leslie: He said, go wash yourself in the Jordan River. Dip yourself seven times. He didn’t even open the door. And Naaman was outraged. How dare he talk to me this way? Who is he think he is?

Anne: Elijah’s like, I’m not going to subject myself to leprosy. I’m not opening the door until he doesn’t have leprosy.

Leslie: Why not open the door? Why is this such a big deal to you? This is just marriage, exactly how things go. This is exactly how men treat women. Don’t get so upset over it. Don’t get your knickers in a knot. Men watch pornography. Just let them do it. That’s what they’re going to do, right? Men will be men. Men will cheat. I mean, I’ve heard that so many times.

I had a client once whose husband sexually molested her daughter and all her little friends at her birthday party. They were like six years old, and it was horrible. He was the youth pastor, was arrested, had a trial and everything. And put in jail, and his parents still blamed her. Like, you’ve made this all up. You’ve vilified our son. You’ve ruined his career.

Anne: Uchhh, that’s awful. I hear stories like that frequently. Victims are trying to get help, they’re doing the right thing by going for help. But they don’t anticipate that a pastor, friend or family member is not going to help them, in fact is going to hurt them.

Which is why strategy is so important. So before you do anything, make sure you check out the strategies in The Clarity After Betrayal Workshop, because that will help you how to get to safety strategically. So that the helping people you go to don’t harm you in the process.

Examples From The Bible

Leslie: Part of it in the Christian world anyway is that we have made an idol out of marriage. That we value marriage above the safety and sanity of the people in the marriage. When a woman begins to say, I don’t want this, that can seem rebellious in a conservative Christian family. How dare you break up the family? She hasn’t broken the family up. She’s just exposed the truth.

What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? Ephesians, says, do not cover over the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. It’s like pulling a blanket off of a ground with roaches underneath. Nobody wants to see that. So just leave it, leave it alone. It’s ugly. You talk about this clash of values and the interesting thing about it is God himself has a clash of values. What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? In the Bible, for example, in the 10 commandments, it says, thou shalt not lie. So that’s one of God’s highest values. It’s in the 10 commandments.

And yet when Rahab lied to keep the Israelite spies safe from the people from her own land, seeking to kill them. She lied. She said they went that way when they were really hiding in another place. God commended her, saved her life. And actually, she’s in the Hebrew’s hall of fame as an amazing woman. So there’s a safety value God has. Another example, God says his value is that we should obey and submit to our authorities.

So here we have two examples. One in the Old Testament, one in the New Testament, where King Saul was David’s authority, and yet Saul was treacherous.

Getting To Safety: What Does The Bible Say About Narcissistic Abuse?

He was trying to kill David because he was jealous of him. And David fled. He didn’t say, Now, David, trust me and stay put and suffer and sacrifice, and I’ll keep … No! He said, Get out of Dodge! And David did. And when baby Jesus was under Herod’s authority, and Herod sought to kill all the babies under the age of two.

God woke Joseph up in a dream. He didn’t say, now Herod’s going to try to kill baby Jesus, but just stay put and I’ll keep you all safe. He said, flee. And the Bible says the prudent see danger and take refuge.

Leslie: So this hierarchy of values, you can’t stay healthy, be healthy, get healthy, or provide healthy for your children. If you’re living in fear and terror all the time. And so safety is an important value to God. And it’s not wrong for you to create safety. Our brain has two channels. One is safety and one is growth. And if the safety channel is hijacked because you are in an unsafe environment, you’re not worried about growth when you’re worried about your safety.

You’re just worried about safety. And so children who grow up in an environment where there’s a lot of turmoil, screaming, and lack of safety. Their growth channel of learning and maturing, and all that is shut down because safety comes first. And so we have to recognize it. Safety, physical safety, emotional safety, financial safety, sexual safety, spiritual safety. These are important values to God, and we do not have to be apologetic or ashamed for taking them to heart in our own life.

Anne: What does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? Yeah, getting to safety is what God wants for us.

Strategic Responses To Abuse

Anne: He says over and over in the scriptures that we need to separate ourselves from wickedness. Touch, not the unclean things, stuff like that. We’re commanded to separate ourselves from wickedness. If we choose to divorce to create safety in our lives, God is proud of us. That does provide a layer of safety. Because they’re not living in your space.

It can provide a layer of financial safety in some ways. In some ways, you’re less financially safe, obviously, but it doesn’t stop his covert emotional abuse. you, especially through the court system. And we’ve covered this on so many episodes.

Anne: It’s also why that strategy is important. And why I wrote my workshop, so that you can anticipate the safety issues that will arise.

Leslie: Yeah, what does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? Jesus says to his disciples to be as shrewd as serpents, but as innocent as doves. In other words, he’s saying there will be some people who will be out there to harm you, and you better be shrewd about that. The narcissist or the abuser will try to pull you into it. The more he can make you look bad, the more ammo he has against you with your children.

And this is such an important part to stay clear, don’t get into arguments or defend yourself with them. Don’t get into long explanations. Don’t get into trying to understand each other. It’s not going to work in marriage. It’s not going to work in divorce. Because if it becomes boring for him to interact with you, because he’s not getting anything out of it, then he might not do it as much.

Avoiding Contention

Leslie: But if he can provoke you, especially in front of your kids or someone else, and make you look like a bad guy and make him look like the victim, he’s going to do it as much as possible. So be strategic. Get some coaching on how to be strategic. If you’ve been married to a man with covert narcissistic traits. Understand they have two high values. One is always to be right. And one is to always win. So pick your battles. Because they will fight you on the littlest thing to win.

So don’t show your cards, and if you don’t show what matters to you, they can’t try to win because they don’t know. So it’s better for you to stay more silent and not say, I want the kids for Christmas this year. Or this is important to me. Because as soon as you let him know that, he will try to hurt you with that. So keep your cards close to your vest, and don’t share a whole lot, and be strategic.

So that they think they’re winning and you get what you need, which is peace and quiet and not being attacked all the time. And that will take some coaching and strategy. And when you’re part of a group of other women, like Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group, you see smart, talented, beautiful women who have also been rejected. Who have also been abused. You’re starting to say, wait a minute, this isn’t my problem. This isn’t our problem as a woman. It’s a problem in the culture. It’s a problem with men.

Support & Community

Leslie: And I’m not going to feel the shame of his sin anymore. Because I have other women who I see are just as hurt and as normal. And just as talented and beautiful as they can be. Their husband still did this to them. And so it helps detoxify, I think, the shame of what their husband has done.

Anne: Yeah, it’s true. Knowing other incredible women helped me feel better. And what does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse? Because I thought, okay, this has nothing to do with me. And just like Leslie said, strategy is so important. So check out The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop at this link. Leslie, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on what does the Bible say about narcissistic abuse today.

Leslie: Thanks, Anne, being with you is my pleasure.

Have you noticed that your husband now criticizes the very traits he once loved? Narcissists groom victims by presenting themselves as safe, loving, and trustworthy at first, to gain trust and lower a woman’s defenses before causing harm.

When women understand three common ways narcissists groom victims, they can begin to see what’s really happening. Grooming often works quietly. Emotional abusers use a cycle of praise, pity, and confusion to keep women questioning themselves instead of questioning his behavior. This is why grooming feels good at first, because the intent stays hidden until the damage is already underway.

To know if it’s grooming, you’ll also need to know if he’s using any one of these 19 different emotional abuse tactics. Take our free emotional abuse quiz to find out.

1. Narcissists Groom Victims With Compliments He’ll Later Use To Attack You

Narcissists groom victims with compliments that feel personal and sincere. Early on, they pay close attention to what matters to you, what you feel good about, and what you’re insecure about. Later, they use those same things to criticize, confuse, or control you.

This is why many women don’t see red flags before a relationship or marriage begins. At first, it feels like he truly sees you and appreciates who you are. Over time, you realize that what felt like love and admiration was actually preparation.

2.Narcissists Groom With DARVO

DARVO means Deny, Attack, and then Reverse the Victim and Offender roll. This is when someone who is truly hurting you claims that you are hurting them.

3. Narcissists Groom Victims With Sob Stories

Playing the victim is a common tactic narcissists groom victims with. The truth is that many, many people have had traumatic childhoods and it’s not a reason to abuse anyone. In fact, many people with traumatic childhoods are the healthiest people you’ll ever meet.

Abuse is a choice. When a narcissist says he’s lying (or any other abusive behavior) because of his traumatic childhood, he’s just trying to groom you into thinking he has a good reason or excuse. He’s also trying to make you feel sorry for him. He’s NOT choosing to be a healthy person. If he was, he wouldn’t have done it in the first place. To hear Chelsea’s entire story, read on or listen to the full podcast episode above.

Full Transcript: 3 Ways Narcissists Groom Victims

Anne: Today, I’m joined by a member of our community. We’re going to call her Chelsea.

Chelsea shares how her husband was grooming her in ways she couldn’t see at the time, and how his true character revealed itself gradually. It wasn’t obvious cruelty at first. He was charming, praised her, and even showed empathy.

As Chelsea shared her story, I noticed three familiar ways narcissists groom victims in the things her husband did repeatedly to confuse her. I want to briefly name these so you can listen for them as the conversation unfolds.

First, early compliments that later became weapons. Traits he admired at the beginning were eventually used to criticize.
Second, DARVO—deny, attack, and reverse victim and offender. When confronted about harm, he claimed he was the one being hurt.
And third, sob stories designed to pull empathy, which later became excuses for harmful behavior.

So listen for these as Chelsea shares her story. Welcome, Chelsea.

Chelsea: Hi. I’m so glad to be here. Betrayal Trauma Recovery has helped me so much.

Anne: When you first met your husband, or maybe when you first got married did you recognize his behaviors as abuse?

Chelsea: No, I definitely didn’t. I guess everything’s hindsight 20/20, but at the time I was a single mom of two kids myself, so I don’t know if it was just insecurities. It happened slowly, and it circled around insecurities I had so I didn’t really notice it at first.

Anne: When did you start recognizing like something’s not quite right?

1. Narcissists Groom By Giving Compliments They Will Later Attack You With

Chelsea: I would say it was like, a few months into dating. I guess the biggest thing for me was all the things he originally complimented me about or liked about me, he made comments about that in a derogatory kind of way. So, I guess that’s why they recognize it as abuse. I remember being emotionally distressed but not really understanding why.

Anne: So, he kind of changed his tune? So, I’m just using this as an example. Maybe he said you’re so beautiful, I’m so attracted to you, and then later maybe he was like you’re not attractive to me.

Chelsea: Yeah, a couple of examples early on where I was single and I have a really good co-parenting relationship with my ex-husband. I had the perfect situation for me, I had my kids during the week and on the weekends.

I was 25 years old back then; this was five years ago, and I kind had the best of both worlds. I’m a very social butterfly, life of the party kind of person and I love to wear red lipstick. That’s just a small example because he did end up using that against me a lot. It was like one of those weird off to the side things, but stuff like that.

He complimented me that I am so fun, and he likes how I do my makeup and stuff like that. And then even like how I am a good mom. Then fast forward a few months, it all slowly started going downhill.

He started saying things like you have children at home, why are you acting like this? And why do you wear makeup like that? That’s really how the very beginning of it started.

Recognizing The Abuse

Anne: This is the first way narcissists groom victims, by giving us compliments. And we’re so grateful to have someone see us. Notice us appreciate us. Then later they use those same things that they once complemented us about against us. So later they weaponize what they learn about us, and then they use the thing that they complimented us about against us later. These narcissist husbands don’t want us to leave.

Which is such a betrayal. So many victims don’t see any red flags before they get into a relationship or marriage, because the grooming is so specific to us. They’re very good at manipulating us to feel like they truly see and appreciate us in the beginning.

Then they purposefully compliment us, then later weaponize it. So at the time, were you thinking, okay, once we’re married, then he’ll go back to realizing how great I am.

Chelsea: Yes and no. I got getting pregnant about a little less than a year of dating, and that was a whole fiasco. Right before I getting pregnant, I tried to cut it off. It took me years to realize it was abuse. So that definitely never really came into my mind, but it was so emotionally tumultuous.

I don’t know if that is a good word to use. I was like I can’t do this anymore. The way he would degrade me or like the way fights would go. I was like, I don’t want to do this anymore. And then that cycle of abuse was already in play. That wasn’t really any different than after we were married, but I tried to break up with him.

Narcissists Groom Victims Off & On To Keep Them Hooked

I actually moved away, a couple hours away, for a job. This will help me cut it off because it’s really hard to cut things off with an abuser.

To me that was like my way; you know, emotionally I was having a hard time cutting it off because he would always come back around. I thought if we’re physically not in the same place this should be good.

Well, he came to visit me on the weekends. It would always be this big whole thing. Narcissists groom victims using the cycle of abuse, and that definitely was happening still. Then I ended up finding out I was pregnant.

https://youtu.be/gvxpK9yloco

In hindsight, I tell the story sometimes now; I have multiple kids and this instance was like the only time I remember just like falling and sobbing on the floor. At the time, I just had started this new job, I was trying to start this new life.

I think it was more of that subconscious knowing that what was really happening underneath all of it was the abuse I was going through. How that was just going to make it so much worse, and it did.

Anne: So, you were married because you were pregnant, essentially?

Chelsea: Basically, yeah. Like he ended up begging for me back and like wanting to make it work and of course, add a pregnancy in there and you’re already vulnerable. Like in these cycles, at least that’s how it was for me, these cycles come around and add a pregnancy in there and it’s like, I really want this to work now.

Horror Honeymoon With an Abuser

I already have two other kids. I don’t want to have another kid and be a single mom. At that point, I still really wanted to be with him, but I was like fighting that war with myself. I just wanted to believe him when he said he wanted to make it work. So yeah, we ended up getting married, and even our wedding night was just horrible.

Anne: A lot of people have horror honeymoon stories or wedding night stories. Yeah, that’s awful.

So, you’re married and you’re pregnant. So many victims of emotional and psychological abuse, try to resist the abuse. By trying to stop it through common marriage advice, like loving serving, forgiving. Like being more understanding, thinking that if they act differently, it will protect them from the abuse.

It’s a really common form of resistance to abuse. What was your experience with this type of resistance to the abuse?

Chelsea: So, we end up getting married after the baby was born, he was a few months old at the time, because all this whole drama played out for a while before I ended up moving back and everything. But I didn’t notice, I moved back and that’s when I quit my job and like pretty much left my career.

I had a corporate career at that point, to be with him and be a stay-at-home mom. That’s like really what I thought I wanted at the time.

Anne: Yes, that is common, narcissists groom victims by making them dependent on them. Really quick, what’s his job?

Chelsea: He’s in the military.

Anne: Okay, so he’s got a stable, respectable job.

Narcissists Groom By Making Them Fully Dependent On Him

Chelsea: Yes, and that was used against me all the time. So then things really turned once I was fully dependent on him. That’s when things got even worse. At that point, we did some counseling and things like that, just like typical stuff. It’s crazy looking back on it now because, I don’t know what I was thinking. I think I really was just going through the motions. I don’t know any other way to describe it.

Anne: What did he seem like to the counselors? Did he seem like a really upstanding good guy to the counselors?

Chelsea: Yeah, and even through the years, like he will admit that he has “problems,” it would always be like yes, I have problems but it’s not me. As ironic as that is, you know what I mean?

Anne: If you just love me for who I am and help me out, but they’re your fault, because you’re not understanding and because you’re not patient and because you’re not forgiving or something.

Narcissists Groom By Blame Shifting

Chelsea: Or he would always blame my family because he came from like a very well-off family, and I didn’t. So, he always tried to make it seem like you know, I have a lot of trauma from my childhood. Which I feel like that plays into it, at least for me personally, and ending up in a situation like this, to begin with.

He would use that against me. Like well, you’re the one who has mental health issues. You’re the one who has trauma. Like it’s clearly not me, the only issues I have is, you know, the cheating or the prostitutes or whatever the case may be. Like, you are the one who is basically “crazy.” That was just really hard because I think in a way, I believed it.

Anne: Yes, narcissists groom victims by blame shifting. So, when did you recognize that this was abuse?

Chelsea: Oh, gosh, you know, not until probably the last six months to a year before I ended up leaving, which was earlier this year. I didn’t realize it was actual abuse. This is something he would say too, I was abusive. I’m not an abuser.

Anne: I play tennis, but I’m not a tennis player.

The “Toxic” Lie That Narcissists Use To Groom Victims (& Therapists)

Chelsea: Yeah, then he would even be like and, a lot of things he would say to like multiple marriage counselors we went to over the years were like, well, I used to be the abusive one but now we’re equal. Now we’re just toxic because we’re equal. Like that really came into play the last couple of years before I ended up leaving.

Anne: Because an abuser would never admit that he’s abusive.

Chelsea: Yeah, I think that’s part of it.

Anne: Then they believed him, right. You know what, this is a catch-22 because they admit they’re abusive, and suddenly they’re like a saint. Wow, this is a man who can really be honest and stuff.

In that way, you’re thrown under the bus because it’s like he’s changed what’s wrong with you? And then if they won’t admit it, and they just present as this really great guy, then they also are like, he’s a great guy. Like it’s a lose-lose. Either way, the woman isn’t believed. It’s a toxic lie narcissists groom victims with.

When Therapists Don’t Call Out Abuse

Chelsea: Yeah, and I will tell you something that happened when I was pregnant before we got married, and I was going to counseling or like therapy. I wish sometimes that they would call it for what it is. My therapist made it known that she did not like him, like as much as she could in a professional way, you know.

In hindsight, I’m thinking why didn’t she just tell me that was abuse? Instead of telling me, that’s not okay. You know, she was very adamant about that, I could see the conviction in what she said. But now in hindsight, why didn’t you just tell me I was being abused?

At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, there’s a lot of validation in group whenever I would have a situation the BTR coaches would tell me “this is what’s happening.” That was very validating for me.

Anne: Yeah. That’s what we do here at BTR. Validate. How did you find BTR?

Chelsea: The podcast.

Anne: So you start listening to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. And then did you start attending Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions?

Chelsea: I binge listened the podcast and I was like, Oh, this is my life. I knew I needed something to help me. So then I went to BTR Group. I tell everyone about BTR

Anne: You mentioned, it was really validating to attend Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions because the coaches were saying. This is abuse and you found that to be really validating and helpful. Why do you think having a group of women who really understand what you’re going through is so helpful for healing?

DARVO Is A Way Narcissists Groom Victims

Chelsea: I remember, I think my first session, I don’t even remember the incident that was happening, but I told one of the coaches. What was happening and they were like, that’s DARVO. And I’m like, I don’t even know what that is. And then when she told me, I was like, oh my gosh, like my mind was like blown because I was like, this happens to me constantly.

How did I never know there was a term for this? That gave me strength because they would label things .

Anne: So this is the second way that narcissist groom, their victims. To deny that they’re abusers then to attack their victim. And then to claim that they are the victim and there’s an acronym for this and it is DARVO.

So DARVO stands for DENY, ACCUSE (Or ATTACK), and then REVERSE the VICTIM and OFFENDER ROLES for example. Prominent people who are accused of rape,

Bill Cosby is a good example. Someone accuses him of rape. He denies that it happens. Then he attacks the victim and says, no, no, no, she’s just trying to get money. She’s just trying to get attention. I’m the victim here because she’s trying to ruin my life. So the victim offender role gets reversed.

So again, deny, attack, and then reverse the victim and offender role. This is the second grooming tactic of a narcissist. that we’re going to talk about today.

BTR Group Sessions Can Help You Process Trauma & Abuse

Chelsea: Yeah, now that I talk to more people about this openly, I say the same thing. I think that’s what it got to. It was like I could tell him he was abusive all day long, you know, that went on for 6-12 months after I put a label on it, and that didn’t really help because he would just deflect like he did everything else before I put a label on it.

I do feel like there’s a lot of validation, when I went to Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group, whenever I would have a situation in group, and they would tell me what it was, that was really validating for me. This is what’s happening, and it’s like okay. Because they make us question our reality so much.

Anne: I just want women to know that like, you don’t need someone else to tell you, although yes, it’s helpful, that’s what we do here at BTR. It’s abuse, it’s abuse, it’s abuse all day long. Because I’m like, I just wish women had that inside of themselves, but I’m so grateful that we’re here to help validate.

Chelsea: I think that goes hand-in-hand with the narcissist thing. Like people always want to know is he a narcissist? And I’m like well, it doesn’t really matter. The label doesn’t matter because how is he treating you?

I Get To Decide if I Want to Be In This Situation

Then I kept going through the process of moving out and everything, and something aside from the support and everything. Hearing everyone’s stories was really impactful for me, because I realized I didn’t know what the goal was.

I knew it was supportive, but I didn’t know like how it would be. Once I saw that they aren’t really persuading you to do one thing or another, and it’s more about making your own decisions and deciding for yourself what you want to do or what’s happening.

Hearing other people’s stories and realizing wow, I get to decide if I want to still be in this situation 5, 10, 20 years from now or not, you know. That was very enlightening for me, hearing other people how long they had to go through it. Like, that was a real wake-up call for me.

Anne: I think that’s one reason why women are afraid to join Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group they’re afraid that if they find out it’s abuse, or if they acknowledge it’s abuse, that they’ll have to get divorced from this narcissist. For example, and they’re just not quite ready to do that yet. Or some other version of that where they feel like they’ll go down a road they don’t really want to go down. A lot of women worry about that. What would you say to a woman who’s concerned about that?

Find Validation in the BTR Group Sessions

Chelsea: From my experience, I mean, I can’t say because like I had already planned on leaving when I did join, but from the stories I saw, I remember just really seeing how people could find even that little bit of safety. Like, no they weren’t ready to leave or maybe they don’t want to leave at all and knowing they could have support.

Their feelings are valid, what they’re going through is valid, and even just finding the strength to be able to stand up for themselves or self-care. I always remember them asking what our self-care was for the day, and I remember being like I don’t know, I don’t ever do self-care, you know.

It’s so important even when you’re in that situation, you’re so like spun out trying to survive and like keep your head above water. It’s like a breath of fresh air to be in a group where you’re understood and validated. Regardless of if you are planning to leave or not.

Anne: We wanted to make sure it was safe for everyone, no matter where they are in their process and no matter what their goals are at BTR.

Our goal is safety. We just want to help women feel validated and make their way to safety in whatever way that it looks like for them. So that’s our goal here. The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop is to help women gain safety.

Narcissists Groom Victims With Gaslighting

From your perspective, why do you think it takes so long to understand that you’re being abused? Maybe someone is pointing it out to you. Why do you think it takes maybe someone saying hey, that’s abuse for victims to understand that they’re being abused?

Chelsea: For me personally, I think it’s the art of gaslighting or the manipulation involved where for so long before anyone has even become aware. Maybe you nobody knows this is what you’re going through. Narcissist husbands use gaslighting to groom victims.

The abuser told you that it’s you. I wish I could tell more people because anyone I talked to their first thing has always been go to marriage counseling and I’m like marriage counseling was so detrimental for me. It’s was like we go into session talking about the infidelity or like, the abuse, and everything, and somehow, we ended up talking about forgiveness and the five love languages.

Anne: I hate The Five Love Languages. That’s so funny that you say that. Anytime I hear somebody talking about his love language is this or my love language. I am like, ugh, throw that book in the garbage.

Chelsea: That can end up being used. Basically, just that you’re not giving me enough of this, so I treat you this way.

When Narcissists Groom Therapists

Anne: Yeah, this is my love language, and I deserve it. Right? Or I’m entitled to this because it’s my love language. Of course, they’re always going to say their love language is sex.

Chelsea: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I’m just like, how did we start these sessions with this, and five weeks, six, eight weeks later we’re talking about how I need to forgive, or I need to put more positive bids into our marriage or just any of these marriage counseling things. I’m like this never; none of this got to the root of the problem.

Anne: It’s nonsense when it comes to abuse, but the weird thing is, marriage counselors in general don’t assess abuse first. They just literally go right into positive communication or let’s do a date night every week or you know, whatever.

If it really was an abuse situation, which all of these are, there’s no way you’d be telling somebody to go on a date with their abuser every week or even do the other things they say. It’s literally crazy.

Narcissists Groom Victims With The Unwitting Help Of Therapists And Counselors

Chelsea: To me, it’s the opposite of safety. You’re asking me to be vulnerable and to forgive someone who has not shown me that they’re a safe person.

Anne: Or trust someone who’s completely untrustworthy.

Chelsea: Yeah. They end up using that against you because, they’re the marriage counselor so you need to work on this. It’s like they bring up this list of things the marriage counselor told you to do and they’re not even working on whatever they told them to do.

Anne: Well, it’s hard to tell them what to do, because it’s like, don’t cheat. And they’re like, well, I haven’t cheated since I did last time, and I’m not going to do it again. So, what else can you say. That’s it.

Chelsea: Have more positive communication or whatever. I think that’s what makes it go on for so long. It feels almost like a video game or something. Like, you have to go through all these levels before you’re like okay, I’m not dealing with this anymore.

That’s how it feels to me. He made it seem like that too. Like, when they’re in the bargaining phase or whatever, they just start begging you to try one more time or try something different. So, it’s like, how many levels do I need to go through before this just isn’t going to work?

Narcissists Groom Victims As Part of the Cycle of Abuse

Anne: That’s part of grooming. It gives you hope that change might be possible, right?

Or they’re willing to work on it. It’s essentially just a grooming tool to hook you . Grooming is what is confusing all women about the abuse. There are these times where they “genuinely” want to work on it they’ll go to therapy, or they seem to understand.

They have these moments of what Looks like true introspection where they apologize and “I know how much I’ve hurt you and I don’t want to break our family up and, this is the most important thing to me in the world” all that is is grooming and grooming is abuse. I think people are seeing like, okay, it was good.

I think people are seeing like okay, it was good, and then it was bad. We were happy and he was nice, and then it was awful. They’re not recognizing that that nice part, that good part, that part that he’s “understanding it” or he’s cherishing you is abuse too.

Chelsea: This is my case, but I also think it’s a lot of people’s. The abuser doesn’t think they’re doing that or see that they’re doing that. So, it’s like unintentional. It’s almost like I can’t call that abuse because he’s not doing it intentionally.

Anne: So, this is confusing, right? Because you’re like, this is good. They were nice, they were kind, so are they good?

Narcissists Groom In Order To Maintain Control

Anne: An abuser’s goal is never real peace. An abuser wants control. He wants something from you. That’s the difference.

In those moments when he seems genuinely caring—when he sounds interested, repentant, or emotionally present, it can feel convincing. But there are strings attached. There is always a goal.

He becomes especially kind, attentive, and affirming when he wants something—sex, compliance, admiration, forgiveness, or access. That goal-oriented kindness is what makes it grooming. Narcissists groom victims by using affection as a tool, not as a reflection of who they truly are.

Once he gets what he wants, the tone shifts. Devaluing follows. Sometimes discarding follows. That’s because the connection was never about mutual care, it was about extraction.

Genuine love doesn’t work that way. When someone truly cherishes you, their kindness doesn’t depend on getting something from you. They don’t turn affection on and off based on access or advantage. They think you’re amazing whether or not they benefit. There’s no hidden agenda, just appreciation. That absence of strings is the difference between grooming and real love.

Narcissists Groom Victims To Protect Themselves & Exploit”

Anne: When you say that they don’t intend to hurt me or they don’t intend to be abusive, right? So, a lot of people will be like well, they don’t know they’re abusing me, so how can it be abuse? That’s not what defines abuse. What defines abuse is that it’s harmful to someone else.

So, they don’t have to know what they’re doing in order for it to be harmful to you. The abuse is the harm. It’s not necessarily their intent. But if their intent is completely selfish and goal-oriented then it’s exploitative, and it’s abusive.

For example, their intent might be I just don’t want her to know the truth because if she found out the truth, she would kick me out of our apartment. So, the intent is not to get kicked out of the apartment. They’re not thinking, I’m going to abuse her, I’m going to lie.

The only thing they’re thinking is, I don’t want to get kicked out of the apartment. So, their intent is to deceive so that they can maintain their entitlements so that they can exploit you and so that they can maintain their status. None of that is ever thinking oh, I’m going to abuse her on purpose. Narcissists groom victims to protect themselves and exploit.

Chelsea: That was so good because that’s something in so many conversations I’ve had. What happens when, you said like getting kicked out of the apartment. When that conversation is more like I don’t want to lose you? Because I think that one’s really hard because then there’s the implied value as their spouse or partner or whatever.

A Narcissist Does Not See His Victim As A Person

Anne: In moments like that, when he says, “I don’t want to lose you,” it’s important to understand what that really means. An abuser doesn’t see his victim as a whole person. He sees a collection of things he wants—sex, domestic labor, financial stability, access to children, or social standing. Narcissists groom victims by making them believe this is love and care.

So, when they say I don’t want to lose you, what they’re saying is I don’t want to lose it. I don’t want to lose someone who’s going to vacuum the floor, or lose any money and have to pay you alimony or child support or anything. I don’t want to lose the privilege of looking like a great guy at church and showing up on Sunday with my wife and kids, my reputation.

My guess is if you really pressed this and said what is it about me specifically that you don’t want to lose? I don’t really think they would be able to answer it. I don’t recommend people asking questions like that because they could come up with an amazing answer and all you’re doing at that moment is handing your abuser a shovel to further groom you with.

The abuser is in a trench, they’ve dug it through their own viewpoint, and they’re really entrenched in there. We never want to give them a shovel to dig themselves any deeper into that trench. Questions like that are going to just be handing them a shovel. They’re either going to groom you more or they’re going to abuse you in some way, devalue you in some way. Either way, it’s abuse to you and it’s an unsafe situation.

It’s Not Your Fault

You would know if they valued you already, you would feel it. If they really genuinely valued you, and it would be consistent over time. You would not have abuse and then grooming and then abuse and then grooming. You wouldn’t feel like you were married to Jekyll and Hyde.

Chelsea: Yeah, that’s what was hard for me for so long. I thought this vulnerable victim-part of himself that he would show me with him, and then start getting the whole picture and that all was part of him. The big part for me, I know everyone’s different.

I stayed so long because I in a way I guess I was codependent and that I felt bad that he suffered so much, that he had these issues. And I’m sure there was a lot of grooming as well.

Anne: Yeah. Well, think about like a girlfriend who’s been through really hard times who is like a good friend of yours. Like she’s kind, she’s supportive, she validates you. She does not use her difficult story or her difficult upbringing as a weapon to abuse you or to excuse her mistreatment of you.

She doesn’t use it to try and get people to feel sorry for her. Her response to her trauma was post-traumatic growth where she was like, you know what I’m going to go to college, and she’s just an incredible, amazing person. There are so many people who have had very difficult situations in the past, they’ve had trauma in their childhood, and they don’t abuse other people. They make really good choices. They think that is not the kind of life I want.

Narcissists Groom Victims With Sob Stories

So let’s stop right here to point out this third way to recognize how a narcissist groom. Number three is that they try to get people to feel sorry for them. They want to say, “ell, I was abused as a kid and my life was really hard. I know someone who went through that, and they don’t abuse their wife. None of that is a reason.

Think about yourself. You went through a very difficult situation, and maybe your upbringing was bad, I’m just saying the general you, and do you lie and manipulate people? We just need to remember that all these sob stories, told in this context, narcissists groom victims with sob stories. That’s their only purpose. The purpose is to make people feel sorry for them so they can get away with bad behavior.

Chelsea: Yeah, for sure, and he groomed me very early on, but I told you how it all started. Well, I would say a month or two even before that was when the grooming began. In hindsight, where he started opening up about his childhood and stuff. Or things he had done in the past, like with his ex-wife that brought him so much shame. All this other stuff he said and cried and everything. And now, I’m like a major red flag, major red flag, but in hindsight that was clearly when the grooming began.

It’s A Red Flag When They Start The Relationship With a Sob Story

Anne: Exactly. Narcissists groom victims by getting people to feel bad for them. So that’s another thing for all the listeners, is that if you start the relationship out with them trying to get you to feel bad for them, then you can just stand up and get an Uber and go home. You don’t want to start there.

If you’re early in your healing and you lead with how victimized you’ve been when you show up on a date, that can work against you. I’m not talking about getting validation at BTR or with close girlfriends, those spaces matter. I’m talking specifically about how you present yourself to someone you’re interested in dating.

That’s dangerous because then they’ll be like, oh, I can just tell them I’ll never do that to you, and I’ll never leave you and that is like giving someone a shovel. They groom victims by telling them they would never do that. I would say abstain from dating while you’re feeling that vulnerable until you can get strong enough that you would never lead with that in a relationship.

Chelsea: We don’t realize that it’s grooming even from day one.

I Am Whole. I Am Working My Way To Healing

Anne: A great way to start a date would be like my life is great. I love it. Even if it’s not. Then people are like well, you know you’re not vulnerable or whatever. But I’m just saying get yourself to your place where you feel like I am whole, I am working my way to healing, I’m doing really well.

That is a good place to start dating from, I think. Rather than I’m trying to date to get someone to help me or I need something. I think that’s just too vulnerable of a place for us especially when we’re in trauma. That it just sets us up for more victimization.

Chelsea: Yeah, that’s so good. I’ve done a lot of deep dives on my own story, you know, over time, and I still have revelations like all the time about things I’ve been through.

Anne: Even now, like seven years later, I’m still getting insights about like, why did I think that, or this is what was really happening. There are insights that we have over time where we’re like oh, that conversation wasn’t even about that.

Narcissists Groom with Misdirection

One thing I’ve come to recognize is that my ex would pick fights with me late at night, then leave the house claiming he needed to cool down. At the time, I believed that explanation. Now I’m certain that wasn’t why he left.

He left because he had something else he wanted to do. I don’t know exactly what that was, maybe acting out sexually, maybe something else entirely, but I do know this: he needed an excuse to leave. So he created one. He picked a fight so he could justify walking out.

In the moment, it felt real. It felt like an actual conflict. Looking back, I can see there was nothing to fight about. He manufactured the conflict to make his exit look reasonable.

That’s one way narcissists groom victims through misdirection. They create a false reality so you focus on the argument instead of questioning why it’s happening at all.

Many women experience this. They think, He’s not attracted to me, or I upset him and he stormed out. They don’t realize he may have decided he wanted to leave and simply needed a trigger. Maybe he criticized her cooking, knowing she’d react, so he could say, See? I need to go.

Chelsea: Yeah, I felt that it definitely happened to me a few times. I don’t know what he was doing, but that’s a very good point.

BTR Group Sessions Can Help You

Anne: Do you have anything you’d want to share with women who might be hesitant to join Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions—or who are listening for the first time and wondering, Is this really for me? Maybe they’re thinking this sounds extreme, or they’re not sure it even counts as abuse, especially since narcissists groom victims in ways that don’t look harmful at first.

Chelsea: I get like being hesitant because I think it’s like admitting it, admitting this as a problem. It’s almost like taking a huge step in itself, and maybe that’s where the resistance comes from, but for me, it was just so helpful.

There were times when an incident would happen, and I’d have to wait a week so my therapist, or maybe some don’t even have a therapist. Maybe your friends or family don’t know what’s going on. I know I didn’t always want to be calling them every time something happened.

I remember it was once I finally, joined, it what a relief to know anytime there’s an incident I could get on the same day. Sometimes I didn’t even need to talk about it, but being in that space where I felt safe and not alone. It’s such an isolating experience to be going through this. Even just sitting and listening helped because it made me not feel crazy. It made me not feel so alone.

Support The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast

Anne: Our community is incredible, and I always say that when one of us has an epiphany, all of us have an epiphany. When one of us gets to safety, it makes it better for everyone. We’re all working on deliverance together. And together, we can make this world a safer place, starting with our own home and then spreading it out to other women across the globe.

I’m so grateful that you found us, and I’m grateful that shared your story. Thank you so much.

Chelsea: Thank you for having me.

Anne: If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. Until next week, stay safe out there.

Are you considering divorcing an abusive husband? If you feel overwhelmed at the thought of hiring a lawyer or fighting for custody? To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take this free emotional abuse test.

Wendy, an attorney, joins Anne Blythe, M.Ed. to talk about divorcing an abusive husband. To learn strategy for dealing with and abusive husband before and after divorce, enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop.

Hiring An Attorney When Divorcing An Abusive Husband

Abuse and betrayal victims may feel daunted and overwhelmed at the idea of interviewing and hiring an attorney. Here are some helpful tips for choosing an attorney when divorcing an abusive husband:

• Interview more than one attorney
• Make sure your attorney understands narcissism and post-separation abuse
• Choose an attorney that will fight for you, but not stir the pot
• Make sure that you understand your attorneys fees from the get-go
• Select an attorney that you feel comfortable and safe with

Victims can enlist trusted friends to help them in the attorney selection process. This is not a decision that needs to be rushed and women can trust their intuition through the process.

Find Healthy Ways To Work Through The Trauma While Divorcing An Abusive Husband

Get the emotional help you need, so your attorney can help you. When women try to navigate the legal system while carrying heavy burdens of trauma and living in constant fight-or-flight mode, they may have trouble making decisions. Emotionally-based decisions tend to muddy the waters and make it difficult for victims to think strategically.

Victims can choose to process their trauma and express their emotions in safe and consistent ways by joining support groups, like the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group, so that when it’s time to focus on the legal aspect of their situation, they can give it their full attention.

Divorcing An Abuser 101: Understand “Best Interest Factors”

When working through a custody battle, it’s important that victims understand the concept of “best interest factors” – or, what the courts will be considering as the important issues that determine who the children should be spending their time with.

Wherever you are in your journey to healing, Betrayal Trauma Recovery is here for you.

Custody battles, divorce, and discovering a partner’s infidelity are all life-altering, traumatic experiences. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions offers the support that you need as you navigate this trying time. Join today and find the community that you deserve.

Transcript: Divorcing An Abusive Husband

Anne: I have Wendy Hernandez on today’s episode. Wendy is a courtroom lawyer who has tackled every type of family law matter from divorce to child custody, to everything in between. Welcome Wendy.

Wendy: Thank you, Anne. It’s wonderful to be here.

Anne: So many of our listeners are just finding out about their husband’s abuse, their husband’s pornography use, or his double life. And they’re starting to wrap their head around the fact that they might be in an abusive relationship. So we have that segment of listeners. Then we have a segment of listeners who are now looking back on their marriage post divorce. They’re like, whoa, I didn’t realize that all the stuff that happened to me is an example of emotional abuse.

Those women, when it comes to the law, are most concerned about upcoming custody issues that have happened since the divorce. Let’s first talk to that first demographic of women who are just coming out of the fog of abuse. Maybe some of them are thinking, can I stay in this marriage? They’re maybe starting to think about divorce.

To those women, what types of things are important for them? As they’re considering, should I considering steps toward divorcing an abusive husband?

Wendy: Yes, so first and foremost, you have to think about your safety and the safety of your children. And I know that many women feel guilty about leaving marriages for spiritual reasons. What is at risk is your life and the lives of your children. If you have children. When they’re in these relationships that are not only life threatening, but soul crushing.

Emotional & Psychological Safety Strategies

Wendy: If you are in danger, start preparing to get out. I wouldn’t say get out until you’ve put some thought into it, until you have a plan in place, and you have some safe people that you can rely upon to help you get through this, because you will need the support from an emotional standpoint. So first and foremost, use Anne and the resources she has available to determine whether you’re safe or not.

Anne: Yeah, she’s talking about The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop, which helps women determine their husband’s character, to see how safe he is. And then we’ll give you emotional and psychological safety strategies, both in terms of setting boundaries, but also how to communicate so that you can protect your emotions no matter what stage you’re in.

Challenges Divorcing An Abuser

Even if you’re never going to consider divorcing an abusive husband, they will still help you emotionally. They’ll still help you get to emotional and psychological safety.

Wendy: If you decide you’re not safe or your children are not safe, then it’s time to leave. I want to share a story about a potential client I met with last week. She had just wanted to get through the divorce, and her attorney at the time really pressured her. Let’s just get through this. And as a result, she agreed to joint custody of her children. So fast forward about a year later, and the abuse is getting worse. It’s affecting the children. He’s starting to direct it towards them.

Her attorney was a man, but essentially he encouraged her to sweep the abuse under the rug. This is an example of how divorcing an abusive husband can be complicated. You have to be in alignment with what you know to be the truth. That may mean you have to stand up to people you think are actually on your side.

Legal & Financial Abuse In Divorce

Wendy: Sometimes emotional abuse is legal and financial abuse that occurs while divorcing an abusive husband. The abuser says, you know, if you persist. Then I’m going to bleed you financially. So it can also turn into a type of scorched earth litigation, where it goes on for not just months, but years. And everything is destroyed in the process. So, whoever’s going through this, they have to evaluate what makes sense for them.

Because if everything’s destroyed, if all bank accounts are destroyed. Or you lose your friends and family, which sometimes can happen with emotional abusers. They tend to get into the heads of people we love and convince the friends and family that the victim is actually the crazy one. It’s hard for me to tell people how to navigate that without knowing the circumstances of each individual case, but you just got to know what can happen.

Anne: Let’s talk about the injustices of that situation. So many victims are just horrified when they find out they need to compromise with their abuser. And I just want to say out loud and acknowledge that it isn’t fair, it’s not okay, and it shouldn’t be the case. But because it is the case, can we talk about how victims can maybe reframe it. Because it’s really, really devastating. Like I’m never going to get help, no one’s ever going to help me. This is how abusers gaslight the victim and the system. I meant I didn’t know what to do when my husband said he doesn’t love me.

Wendy: Yeah, the judiciary needs a lot of education, especially when it comes to emotional abuse. I believe, and you probably agree, that it is the least recognized form of abuse. Judges usually only sit up and notice when there’s physical abuse and doctor’s reports.

Divorcing An Abusive Husband: Healing & Moving On

Wendy: There’s this saying I like to tell my clients, and that is, do you want to be right or do you want to be done? And again, you have to find that balance between the truth and moving on with your life. Because I feel like true healing begins when you can do this initial separation. If it’s a physical or legal separation from the abuser, and then less burdened and more able to get on with the healing.

The longer you’re enmeshed in this litigation, you’re just embroiled in it, and it’s hard to move on. It’s hard to heal when constantly getting messages from an attorney or ex about whatever legal matters are pending. Or when you’re having to go to court. So, there’s a lot to be said for healing.

https://youtube.com/shorts/P9gSfGR_3R4

And I feel like when somebody can throw off the shackles by finally divorcing an abusive husband, they can fly. They can become more than they’ve ever imagined. I believe their potential is unlimited, but while that oppressor is still involved in every aspect of their life and still controlling them, it’s hard to get to that place.

Anne: Yeah, women wonder how long it will take to heal from emotional abuse and healing cannot happen until we can protect ourselves. Let’s talk about post separation abuse and how that affects women. When people think, I’ll help this victim escape this abusive marriage. And then everything will be fine. And they don’t realize that divorce does not solve abuse. Sometimes, it can escalate the abuse through either legal abuse, or abusing the kids.

Many women are horrified. They think, Oh, he’s a good guy. I think the divorce will go okay. Then it gets worse during the divorce. And then it’s even worse after the divorce. So can you talk about post separation abuse?

Keeping Communications In Writing

Wendy: It’s fairly common sense, but many people forget about it, so it bears repeating here. And that is, if you can, keep all your communications in writing with the abusive ex. You may not have had those communications prior to separation, there’s no reason why you shouldn’t be. You should be for your own protection, for the protection of your kids. And when you’re divorcing an abusive husband, he will try to bend the rules, get the survivor to do what he wants.

And use the children as pawns in this game. So keeping communications professional and to the point and centered on the children is important. When you end up in court again, and I say when, because it’s probably going to happen if you’re dealing with an abuser. So the documentation is key. There are certain programs available. One’s called Our Family Wizard.

And these programs help keep track of the communications. A judge can even access the communications if the judge wants to, to look at what’s been going on between the parties. So where somebody may not have had documentation prior to separation or divorce. They can have plenty of documentation after.

And I’ve had many victims of abuse who have used those post separation communications to gain an advantage in a post divorce lawsuit regarding custody of the children. So documentation is key. Avoid verbal communication, verbal contact with the abuser because they will make promises they will not keep, they will say things were said that were not said.

And as you know, because they are so charming and they’re so convincing, there are many cases where the judge believes them. So just keep it in writing. That’s my best advice.

Strategic Messaging Workshop

Anne: So when women enroll in the Living Free Workshop they’ll learn how to use strategy to protect themselves. I’ve seen it happen with so many victims. Their abusers’ messages sound so nice. He says, hey, if we could just get together and talk about this, we can work it out. If you’re divorcing an abusive husband, don’t fall for this.

It is grooming or hoovering because they want to hook us back in. Then they’ll say all kinds of stuff that’s not documented. And I talk all about that in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Can you talk about the scenario where women are groomed through written communication? And that grooming manipulates them to drop their guard and talk to their abuser in person, and how you’ve seen that backfire.

Wendy: Yes, we are raising awareness of this right now, it happens all the time. To the victim, survivor out there, do not drop your guard. You know this person, and you know how they can flip. You know how they can turn, and they’re not going to change after the divorce is over. So don’t let down your guard. You have to maintain your resolve. And keep those communications in writing.

I don’t see any reason why all communication should not be in writing, and I would never let down the guard. The abuser could go a few years and not do anything offensive. You let down your guard. And then boom, they smack you. So it’s important to you and your children not to let down the guard and keep it all in writing, because it does backfire.

Divorcing An Abusive Husband: Court Perception Of Communication

Anne: How do the courts see that scenario? So for example, if an abuser said, hey, I’ve been trying to talk to her. I keep sending her these emails, and then he shows the judge the emails. And in the emails he’s like, why can’t we talk? Why can’t we work it out? How do judges see those types of communications?

Wendy: So I think judges have a problem when a person is not responding at all, and I would say never do that. Especially if the abuser is emailing, hey, there’s this issue with the kids, and let’s try to work it out. Always respond to those. I’ve seen people get into trouble where they completely shut down. That’s normal. It happens. You know, you have PTSD, and there are ways to respond without having to respond. We’ve talked about that, Anne.

Anne: Yeah, exactly. Those are the strategies I teach in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. It’s a way of responding that protects you. It protects your emotions, but also protects you and your kids during the process of divorcing an abuser.

Wendy: Yes, and I’ve had somebody lose custody of their children before. Because the judge said, listen, people share joint custody when they can co-parent, but you’re not responding.

So that tells me that you cannot co-parent. Therefore, I’m giving custody to the abuser. So respond always, keep the response short. We know the abuser will go on and on for pages about whatever the issues are. And if you can, distill it down to what the real issues are, and respond very short and succinctly, and keep it on point.

Working Through Writing Messages

Wendy: But don’t ignore communications. Anne, I don’t know if you want to talk about what we discussed.

Anne: Yeah, The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop strategies, yeah, women have seen amazing results with these strategies. It’s not legal advice, so it’s not the same as talking with an attorney or coming up with a legal strategy. But it is a communication strategy, and it works whether you’re married or divorced. Before I wrote the workshop. I didn’t know if it was a fluke, it worked for me, and would it work for other women.

So I mentored women, and we worked through writing their messages with the criteria I came up with. And all the women I worked with had great results in court. Their messages looked spotless in court. They looked like they could co-parent well. One of the women I mentored, her ex, had taken her to court five times after divorcing an abusive husband, for custody things, five times.

She told me, Anne, nothing has helped me, like The Living Free. This is a game changer. I’m going to win this case. And I don’t think he’s ever going to come after me again. I was so glad to hear that. The messages in the The Living Free workshop are actual real messages of women that I mentored. So some of them are consolidated or clarified, but these are the actual abusers messages and then the strategic messages back.

I do have a section of examples of what’s not strategic, so that women can see the difference.

Keep The Lines Of Communication Flowing

Anne: The cool thing about Betrayal Trauma Recovery is it’s not just that. If you need to talk to somebody about the strategies. Our coaches can help. So. It’s a game changer for women.

Wendy: Yes, the important thing is that the lines of communication are flowing. It doesn’t matter how they’re flowing, as long as they’re flowing. If somebody’s helping a victim respond to emails and communications about the kids. As long as that communication is happening and represents what the victim and survivor wants and thinks is best for the children.

I don’t see why a judge would have a problem with that. Not responding is what I think could potentially cause a person to have issues with the court.

Anne: Is there anything else for women considering divorce when married to an abusive husband that you see them do in the beginning? Maybe they don’t realize this is a trap that’s not going to hurt me right now, but it might hurt me in five years or 10 years.

Wendy: The main thing is denying or saying, avowing that there was no abuse in the relationship. That could potentially hurt down the road.

Anne: So are you saying they don’t necessarily need to bring it up if they’re using strategy? But they should never say it didn’t happen. So they should never write an affidavit or something that says there was no abuse. Because then that will be held against them later.

Wendy: Yes, and the second thing is getting the help they need from somebody like you and the people on your team. As an attorney, I often see women making. decisions based on emotion, or they can’t make decisions because they are so emotional. And it makes the case really hard to move forward.

Divorcing An Abusive Husband: Attorneys Aren’t Trained In Emotional Abuse

Wendy: For me as an attorney, I’m not a trained professional in this area. I do my best. And most attorneys are not trained that way. And it would be amazing if all my emotionally abused clients could get the help they need. Because I think if they have self care after emotional abuse, the legal aspect of it flows a lot better. Because they’re not in the fight or flight state of mind all the time, which makes things foggy.

They can see the options available to them and make a decision based on reason. So get the emotional help you need, so your attorney can help you. If you don’t have an attorney helping you so you can see what’s available, see what’s at stake. And make a decision based on reason.

Anne: Now let’s talk to this other group of women who’ve already been through divorcing an abusive husband. Perhaps they didn’t have an attorney who understood abuse, and now it’s after the fact. So they can’t go back in time. So maybe now they’re looking for a modification or looking to solve some of their post divorce problems. What are some of the things that you see women having trouble with when they’re trying to navigate post divorce legal issues with an abuser?

Wendy: One thing that I see frequently. I’ve just had a string of cases where my clients dealt with this. The client and the children continued to have the same issues they experienced during the marriage. And so we brought this to the attention of the judge, and what the judge said is that this is no different than what you told me two years ago. There’s not been a change in circumstances. So because of that, I’m leaving things as they are.

Proving Changes In Circumstances

Wendy: So, you have to be mindful of the changes, the differences between what you went through. And now fast forward two, three, four, five years from now. And you have to distinguish what is happening now from what happened when the divorce happened. Because the judge will be looking at what changed. And even though the claims may be the same as you made during the divorce.

If you can point to, hey, the kids are having trouble in school. Or hey, the kids pediatrician thinks they need some sort of mental health counseling because of X, Y, Z. If there are changes in health, even though the base issues are the same. If you have some third party saying these issues are causing some real effects, that would be helpful.

Anne: Yeah. And we’re positioned a little differently, because you’re an attorney and they’re hiring you to help them take their ex to court. I don’t recommend they ever take their ex back to court, but instead use the Living Free Strategies.

Because court is so risky, you can lose in court more than you already have. And it gets dangerous, you know? It’s different for you, because you’re an attorney and they’re hiring you to do that. So they’ve decided they want to do that. They don’t know there’s another option. Like strategy is an option, and you can use strategy out of court.

Wendy: Yes, yes in one of the cases I had where the judge said there was no change in circumstances. The judge was looking hard for something. And one of the kids had difficulties in school. But the records didn’t reflect what the judge wanted to see.

Book Recommendation

Wendy: If there’s documentation, that’s helpful, but you need to work with your attorney when you are divorcing an abusive husband. You need to look at the rules and your jurisdiction to see what the guidelines are in terms of modifying custody, decision-making, or parenting time. If there’s a change in circumstances, be sure to prove it. Otherwise, the judge will dismiss the case. At worst, the judge could make you pay the other party’s attorney’s fees and costs, which is never good.

Anne: We’re going to take a break here for just a second. It’s so hard to find professionals who understand this type of abuse, emotional abuse, psychological abuse, and coercion. Many of you may have found an attorney that you feel good about, but they don’t get it. One option is to give them a copy of my book, Trauma Mama Husband Drama. It has infographics in the back.

It helps professionals and other people understand this type of abuse in a really quick way, because it’s a picture book, and they’re way more likely to read a picture book. Trauma Mama Husband Drama is a quick, awesome read that will help bring them up to speed. There are infographics at the back.

If you click on Trauma Mama Husband Drama, it’ll send you to Amazon. Put that in your cart. And then once you’ve received it, please circle back to Amazon, give it a five star rating. Every rating on Amazon helps isolated women find us. Even if they don’t purchase the book, they may become aware, through that review. And through the things you said on Amazon of this podcast, that’s free to everyone.

Divorcing An Abusive Husband: Overwhelm & Taking Small Steps

Anne: One of the things I’ve seen with victims is they get so overwhelmed. They’re overwhelmed with, what am I going to do for money, with childcare, and because their abuser is still manipulating them and confused. And also, they’ve got other people in their life saying, you need to forgive him. Why are you doing this? They just feel so overwhelmed.

That even considering some of these legal issues, even calling several different attorneys to set up appointments for consultations to see which attorney would be good, is really hard for a victim. What questions should they ask when they have the strength to start calling around to find an attorney that’s going to work for them? Do you have any tips on that?

Wendy: Yes, all of us get overwhelmed at various points during our lives for different reasons. And I’ve found myself in places of overwhelm. There are times when I feel like I can’t talk or make a move, overwhelm just paralyzes me. And what I have found to help me when I’m overwhelmed is to stop and think about, okay, what is my goal? Short term and long term goals, what needs to be done in this situation?

And then, I chart out a few steps towards that goal. Then I take one step in the direction of that goal. It could be picking up the phone. It doesn’t necessarily have to be an attorney. But it could be to a friend or family member who’s going to help you feel brave. Make the call to the attorney eventually, tomorrow or next week, but take one step.

Arrangements With Attorneys

Wendy: All these little steps will add up. If you can commit to taking a step every day or a couple of steps every day. So that’s what helps me with overwhelm, is just breaking it down and taking a step. And not worrying about other steps that need to be taken. Or thinking if I don’t take this step, then this is going to happen, then this, and then this is going to happen, and it’s all going to crumble. Don’t think about that. Just think about the step in front of you.

As far as getting an attorney when you’re divorcing an abusive husband, referrals are a great source. And oftentimes my clients come to me because a friend referred them, or a family member, or by somebody down the line who used me in the past. So if you feel comfortable, talk to other people, ask people in the community. And if you don’t want people to know that you’re asking for yourself, have somebody ask for you.

Get an attorney who understands abuse and narcissism. There are many attorneys in the world, and there are many who advertise about abuse, but that doesn’t mean they know about it. So I would talk to them about cases they’ve had in the past, whether they’ve handled cases where there’s no physical abuse, or whether they’ve dealt with narcissists before. So ask them the right questions. Come up with the questions before you meet with the attorney.

You should also understand the financial arrangement with the attorney. Because many people aren’t clear on that, and they run out of money quickly, and they don’t know what happened. Then they’re left without an attorney at a critical part of the proceeding.

Balancing Conflict & Advocacy

Wendy: So you need to expect what the finances will look like, how long the case could potentially last, and how much money it could potentially cost, so you’re prepared. People have to get quiet and centered and feel what kind of person the attorney is. There are many attorneys out there who generate conflict because it means they’re going to make more money.

The more conflict, the more attorney fees there are, and the longer the case will last. Not all attorneys are that way. And I’m not saying you want an attorney who’s just going to lay down and be a rug. You want an attorney who’s going to fight for you, but not an attorney who’s going to intentionally stir the pot. And jack up the fees, create more conflict, and make you look bad in front of the judge because they are creating conflict.

So again, it’s a balance between the attorney who will fight for you, but one who is mindful of resources, which are almost always limited. Just really feel whether that person is a match for you. There are people who come to me sometimes, and they say, I need a junkyard dog. I know right off, that’s not a match for me, because that’s not the kind of attorney I am.

And it doesn’t mean I’m not assertive when I need to be, which is in the courtroom. And when I’m standing up for my client, but I’m just not a junkyard dog. I’m not hostile or aggressive. There are some people who want that. If you want and need that, and you go to an attorney, who’s not that. Your relationship will not go smoothly.

Divorcing An Abusive Husband: Be Patient

Wendy: I can tell you that from experience. So get clear on who you want from a personal quality and value standpoint, and look for that attorney. That attorney is out there and be patient. Don’t be afraid to interview more than one attorney. You don’t have to go with the first attorney you interview.

Anne: Thank you so much. Our listeners are super overwhelmed, but I want them to realize they need more education about this. So that they can avoid some of these long-term problems that many women in my community encounter when divorcing an abusive husband. Because they weren’t prepared, and you’re always going to run into problems that were unavoidable. So understanding the lay of the land with these legal issues is important.

Thank you, Wendy, for being on today’s episode.

Wendy: Thank you, Anne

If you’ve ever searched for a marriage bible reference because someone told you, “A good Christian wife shouldn’t say no,” you’re not alone.

Many women, especially when we’re juggling children, church expectations, and a husband who says he has “needs”, go looking for scripture to settle the question: Does the Bible really require me to submit to intimacy that feels one-sided or emotionally detached?

Why women need thiese bible references

In this interview with Sheila Wray Gregoire (co-author of The Great Sex Rescue, based on research from more than 20,000 Christian women), we unpack something most marriage conversations miss: The Bible repeatedly tells believers to resist evil, guard their hearts, and seek protection—not to submit to harm in God’s name.

Let’s walk through the powerful marriage bible reference no one quotes when women are pressured into “intimacy” out of duty.

The Marriage Bible Reference For Women in a Confusing Marriage

A common problem in Christian marriage teaching is defining intimacy almost entirely around intercourse and male climax.

In the interview we discussed a study of over 20,000 Christian women. Here’s what we found.

• Women who feel emotionally disconnected report far lower satisfaction intimacy.
• Obligation-driven intimacy correlates with increased pain and emotional withdrawal.

Yet many Christian books interpret these bible references to frame physical intimacy as:

• His need
• Her obligation
• A way to prevent him from using inappropriate or exploitative media or infidelity

For a mom who already carries the emotional weight of the family, this adds another invisible burden:
“Keep him stable, or it’s your fault if he sins.” That framing erases the pain she feels from the infidelity because apparently she caused it. This is actually a form of spiritual and emotional abuse. To find out if you’re experiencing this, here’s my free emotional abuse test.

The Marriage Bible Reference No One Quotes

When women are told to endure their husband’s harmful behavior in marriage, certain verses are often quoted. But others, just as authoritative, are quietly ignored.

Here are the powerful passages that show God consistently calls His people to protect themselves from harm.

1. “Deliver Us From Evil” — Matthew 6:13

Jesus Himself taught believers to pray for deliverance from evil. Not “Help us tolerate evil” or “Help us endure harm silently.”
Deliver.

The Lord’s prayer tells us to pray for deliverance and it means God wants to protect us. God makes it clear that evil exists and we should seek to be delivered from it.

To talk to Christian women who understand your situation, attend one of our daily, online Group Sessions. There you can fellowship with faithful women who are discovering their husband’s true character and figuring out what to do through prayer and scripture study.

2. “Guard Your Heart” — Proverbs 4:23

“Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.”

If physical with your husband feels soul-crushing, if your body recoils, if you feel used rather than known, this verse supports protecting your emotional and spiritual core. Guarding your heart is not rebellion. It’s what God wants women to do if their husband hurts them emotionally.

3. “Resist the Devil” — James 4:7

“Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

Resistance is biblical. Spiritual language is being used by wicked people to override your righteous boundaries. , that pressure should not go unquestioned. Scripture does not command passive compliance with manipulation.

4. “Put On The Armor of God” — Ephesians 6:10–18

Here’s the thing, many scriptures are actually marriage bible references, even if they don’t say “marriage” because they talk about how believers should deal with people who hurt them. For example, why would God tell anyone, even women, to put on the armor of God? Because harm is real.

The imagery of spiritual armor teaches you to stand firm and defend yourself.

Often, women don’t realize the man she married is lying to her, pretending to be righteous when he’s actually undermining her and their marriage. This causes real harm and God wants everyone, including women to protect themselves.

5. “God Is Refuge” — Psalm 46:1

“God is our refuge and strength, an ever-present help in trouble.”

Refuge means safety. A marriage should provide emotional safety. But if it doesn’t, there’s something wrong. If the way your husband treats you leaves you feeling invisible or emotionally unsafe, that does not align with how marriage should be, according to God.

6. “Hate What Is Evil” — Romans 12:9

“Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good.”

Marriage does not transform evil into righteousness. Coercion does not become holy because you made a vow with a man who lied and doesn’t keep his vows. If he doesn’t keep his vow to cherish and protect you, it’s not your fault. God wants you to hate being harmed so you can learn to protect yourself.

How The Wrong Interpretation of a Marriage Bible Reference Hurt Generations of Women

Certain marriage bible references have been interpreted incorrectly, and have told women that…

• “She must be available for physical intimacy or he’ll sin.”
• “All men struggle with lust, so this is normal.”
• “Her body is the solution to his sin problem.”

The research tells us that when women are told these untrue interpretations they have

• Lower marital satisfaction
• Higher pain
• Greater emotional disconnection

Meanwhile, women who report emotionally close marriages experience:

• Higher mutual satisfaction
• Better intimacy
• Greater physical responsiveness

The data does not support obligation intimacy as “saving” marriage. It supports emotional health as the foundation of a healthy, fulfilling marriage.

What This Means for Women With Children

If you’re raising kids with a man who is harming you, you’re trying to figure out what God wants you to do because the situation is complex. You have children to raise and you’re likely financially dependent on your husband. Here’s a powerful truth to help you.

Scripture consistently calls believers to pursue righteousness, safety, and protection.

Examples in real life might look like:

• Saying, “I am not willing to have one-sided intimacy. If fact, if it is, it’s not really intimacy is it.”
• Refusing to accept sexual sin as “normal male behavior.”
• Stop seeking counsel from people who don’t take your concerns seriously.
• Praying for deliverance, not just for endurance.

Reframing the “Marriage Bible Reference” Requirement

Women tell me they were discouraged to protect themselves from their emotionally unsafe husband by people quoting scripture. But there are countless marriage bible references that encourage people to separate themselves from wickedness.

If someone is using scripture to coerce you to stay close to someone who harms you, they’re not being Christlike. Christ would put his arms around you and tell you you deserve to feel emotionally safe in your own home.

The Bible does speak about marriage.

But it also repeatedly commands believers to:

• Flee evil (1 Thessalonians 5:22)
• Stand firm (1 Corinthians 16:13)
• Seek wisdom (James 1:5)
• Protect the vulnerable (Psalm 82:3–4)

Nowhere does scripture teach that a wife must endure coercion to prove her godliness. It DOES NOT say that male desire overrides female consent. Nowhere does it command women to sacrifice their emotional health to preserve appearances.

Transcript: Marriage Bible Reference No One Quotes

Anne: So many women are looking for marriage bible references to figure out if they are being a Godly wife. If you’re not Christian or you’re agnostic or atheist, this episode has a lot of data that will be useful to you. We’ll talk about the incorrect interpretations of scripture that show up in secular places as well, and how it’s harmed women.

Women looking for God’s help to save their marriage (or improve it) aren’t dumb. They’re humble and are reaching out for help. The problem is people are telling them the bible says certain things about marriage that it actually doesn’t say.

So today I’m talking with Sheila Rae Gregoire. She’s best known as the blogger of to love honor and vacuum. And she, her daughter Rebecca Gregoire Lindenbach and Epidemiologist Joanna Sowatski, surveyed more than 20,000 Christian women. About their lives, marriages, and beliefs about marriage and intimacy. Together, they wrote a book called The Great Sex Rescue, the Lies You’ve Been Taught, and How to Recover What God intended.

After reading it, I’m like, throw all your other Christian intimacy books in the garbage. Today, Sheila and I will focus on how to recognize intercourse that’s unhealthy. So, Sheila, you started writing about intimacy in Christian circles a long time ago. What got you interested in this in the first place?

Christian Books Containing Bad Advice: Sheila’s Journey Into Intimacy Writing

Sheila: Thanks so much for having me. We had such a great time chatting before we even recorded this, that like, hey, we’re just besties. Well, it’s like nobody grows up thinking I’m going to become the Christian sex lady. Like that’s not anyone’s plan, and it certainly wasn’t mine. I started blogging and I was just talking about marriage, you know, and parenting and housekeeping, and just the normal mom blog stuff.

But simultaneously, my husband and I were speaking at many marriage conferences, and we always had to do the talk because nobody wanted to do it. And so we would just get plugged in there and he’s a doctor. He’ll talk up at anything. He doesn’t care. And I don’t care either. So it seemed like we were always the intimacy people.

And I just started writing about it more. The more I wrote about it, the more people showed up at the blog. And I think ever since then, my blog has been mostly about intimacy.

Anne: Hey, I get where you’re coming from. I never thought I’d be the pornography podcaster. So I totally get it. My mom always says the anti-pornography podcaster. So tell me about this study that you did.

Sheila: It seemed like no matter how much we said, and no matter how much good content I produced. People still had all the same problems. And it was like I wasn’t making a dent in it. And I started to wonder, maybe the issue isn’t that people don’t have enough good resources. Maybe it’s that our foundation is faulty, and there’s something seriously wrong underneath. But until we address that structural flaw, nothing’s really going to work.

Huge Study About Identifying Messages Hurting Women

Sheila: And so we did this huge study of Christian women in every denomination, every sect, every everything. Trying to figure out what correlates with good a good intimate life, and what correlates with a bad one. And how we can identify what messages in Christian books hurt women. And I think one of our big problems is just a definitional one.

So if I were to say to you, did you have it last night? Okay, which I won’t, because that’s really creepy. But if I asked you that, chances are you’re thinking something specific. Like, you’re thinking, did he put his thing into her thing and move around until he climaxed? You know, that’s our definition.

Anne: You can say penis and vagina, by the way. So let’s just say really quick, for this particular episode, if you do have young ears listening, we will be saying that. So you may want to pause and restart when they’re not in the car.

Sheila: I’m probably going to say orgasm too. So anyway, yeah, did he put his penis into her vagina and move around until he reached climax? And that’s what we think it is. But, in our survey, what we found is that only about a third of women who do reach orgasm can reach orgasm through intercourse alone. Okay, so most women need something other than just intercourse. And most women find it easier to reach orgasm in other ways.

Biblical Perspective On Intimacy

Sheila: So if we say intercourse is just man puts thingy into her thingy and moves around until he climaxes, we’re leaving her almost entirely out of the description. Like she could lie there counting ceiling tiles, she could write a grocery list in her head, and that still counts. And that’s just not how the Bible talks about it. First of all, it’s not only physical. The Bible talks about it as a deep knowing, you know, Adam knew his wife Eve. Like it’s a deep knowing between two people.

So it isn’t just. physical. It’s also supposed to be spiritually intimate. Then it’s supposed to be mutual and pleasurable, where both get something out of it. And instead, we’ve condensed it to one-sided intercourse. When we do that, all kinds of bad things happen. And I think our primary problem is that we see it mostly from a male perspective, that it’s only about intercourse.

Well, Biblical intimacy is something which is life giving. It’s something which binds you together and helps you to feel more intimate. The way we often talk about it is actually something which is soul crushing. We see it as an obligation that she owes him. So it’s an entitlement on his part. It’s an obligation on hers. Many Christian intimacy authors write books with bad information. And that’s got all kinds of repercussions. What we saw over and over again in our survey responses and in the focus groups we did afterwards.

Is that the women with the best lives, the most responsive, and enjoyed it the most. Were the women who felt emotionally close to their husbands, both inside and outside the bedroom.

Emotional Closeness & Satisfaction

Sheila: So, the people in the happiest marriages tend to have the best intimacy, and that shouldn’t surprise us. Like, well, that’s kind of intuitive, right? But the problem is, we talk about it as if it can be a substitute for those other things. Like, if you don’t feel close, you should just have it so that you’ll be closer. What we found is that that doesn’t actually work. When women have it for years. And they feel emotionally distant from their husbands, they just can’t sustain that.

When you have it, which is supposed to be deep knowing, and when it becomes only physical. It actually becomes a rejection of you. Like if it is supposed to be a knowing, it means both people matter. But if it becomes something that you only do because you’re supposed to, then your needs are no longer being considered. And that means you don’t matter, and then it becomes a rejection, and that’s not right.

Think about it this way. When you get a driver’s license, you can now drive. It doesn’t mean you get a car. And when you get married, you now have the relationship in which you can have it. It doesn’t mean you get it. You’re just now in the relationship where it is sanctioned by God. But that doesn’t mean it has to happen anymore than having a driver’s license means you get a car.

It just means you have permission to drive. And it’s the same thing with intercourse. You know, when we get married, it’s not like we’re promising now I will have it with you whenever you want. We’re now saying this is the relationship in which life giving it can occur.

The Impact Of Forced Intercourse On Women

Sheila: And that’s healthy. That’s a good thing. That’s what we should be aiming for. But God does not require us to have soul crushing intercourse. And if you’re told you need it, or else something bad will happen. right? Or else he’s going to watch explicit material, or else he’s going to have an affair, or he’ll be grumpy and treat you terribly.

Then that’s not a free choice that you are making. When you can’t freely say no, you can’t freely say yes either. And that’s a big problem. And we’ve got the numbers. I’m a numbers person. I love it. But we have so much data of what happens when you have it for years, simply because you feel like you have to. And you feel almost forced into it, and it is not pretty. This does not end well for women. This is soul crushing.

And what I often tell women to say is something like this, “hon, I would love to have a passionate life with you. I would love to make love with you. But that’s not what’s happening right now. What’s happening right now is that I feel used and so I am no longer willing to have it one-sided with you. I need to connect in every way, and I need to be able to trust you and I need to feel safe. And until that happens, I am no longer willing to have it with you.”

That’s okay to do because when God created us for relationship and marriage, he didn’t create us so that we were now slaves to someone else, as many Christian relationship books state.

Personal Experiences & Struggles

Sheila: He created us for connectedness, for community, for relationship, for emotional health. God never wants you to feel used. That is never his will.

Anne: I remember when I first got married, I was 31 and a virgin. I remember telling my friends who were also virgins, I said, I feel like a machine. It was really one-sided. I didn’t enjoy it from the beginning, and I said, it’s weird. Because I just feel like some object he use. I thought I would get it, but I don’t get it. And I remember thinking that and telling people that because I was trying to get help. I was trying to be like, what is this?

How do I navigate this? There were so many things I didn’t understand. I didn’t know he was using it. I didn’t know I was being gaslit. But I think many women have that thought of like, am I just? A robot? What am I? Who am I? What is my identity in this? And how do I fit into this? What does lack of true intimacy do to a woman? Can you talk about what the data said about women who have traditional views on gender roles? Or who get their information from popular marriage bible references that have been misinterpreted?

Sheila: Yeah, I found this interesting. Okay, so let me take my daughter, for instance. One of my daughters is a real homemaker. She loves everything about being a housewife. And she came home last week because her husband is in the military and he’s away right now. She came home last week, and cleaned my entire kitchen, got behind the fridge, got under the stove. Like she totally cleaned everything.

Christian Promote Harmful Traditional Gender Roles And Mandatory Intimacy

Sheila: She lives for this sort of thing. And her husband, like I said, is in the military. Okay, he likes to shoot things for fun. Like he loves doing skull art. He will shoot animals, and he will turn the skulls into things on the wall. All right. Now, what we found is that when you look at couples like my daughter and son-in-law, if those roles are freely chosen. So if she decides to stay home and be a housewife, and if he decides to work outside the home.

Because that is what they individually want to do, that’s great. But if they make that choice because they think I have to stay at home because I’m a woman, and I have to go out and earn a living because I’m a man, their emotional intimacy suffers.

Anne: Does it also apply to something, like I have to clean the toilet, make dinner or do the laundry because I’m a woman? And the man thinking, you have to clean the toilet because you’re the woman?

Sheila: Probably, I would assume, but we can’t speak to that because we didn’t specifically ask about that. There are some more words that we didn’t put in. We didn’t say we’re egalitarian. Even though we are, we didn’t say lots of words like that. And that was deliberate. That was a deliberate choice that we made. And the reason is because the people I need to reach, the people whose minds I need to change. Are the people who are buying in the most to many of these negative teachings.

Trying To Change People’s Minds

Sheila: They tend to be the people in the most patriarchal churches. That’s another word we didn’t use, patriarchal. We wanted to present the data and let it speak for itself. What we found on the blog over the last few years is that every time I try to talk about gender roles or something, we end up talking past each other. People start debating doctrine and they start debating. What does the Bible say about this?

I don’t find that gets us anywhere, but if I can say something like, you can believe that if you want. But she’s going to have a 38 percent lower orgasm rate. I find that works better. We try to bring it back to the data and get it out of the political realm or the doctrinal realm. And talk about the data. I think this can help change people’s minds. I think this is the way in, because most people want good intimacy. Like, most people don’t want this to be wrecked.

And so if I can show them, Hey, when you believe these things, it is more likely to be terrible. They’re going to listen to me much more than if I start talking about how misogynistic everybody is.

Anne: I like it. I do use those terms I don’t think of them as political, you know, but some people do. So I respect that you did that and that makes total sense.

Sheila: Well, I think you’re a different spot though, right? Like you get people who are coming to you, who have already felt betrayed or are thinking about it. I’m trying to reach a broader audience and change the conversation. I just hope we’re doing that. I think we are.

Popular Christian Books & Their Flaws

Anne: Oh, I think so too. Can you talk about these popular Christian books and some of the main themes that you saw that were unhealthy for women?

Sheila: Yeah, one of the biggest ones is summed up in a Christian book called Love and Respect, where the author says, if your husband is typical, he has a need you don’t have. And that says so much. Like, first of all, it says it is for the guy. It’s not for the woman. It phrases it in terms of his need, rather than just a drive. You know, I don’t believe it is a need. I think we all have a drive, but it’s not a need.

And when we talk about it as a need, we frame it as something which she would be depriving him if she ever said no.

Anne: He’s gonna die if you don’t have it with him.

Sheila: Yeah, exactly.

Anne: It’s like air and food.

Sheila: So that’s highly problematic. That was typical, that framing of it as something about him, not about her. And then the other one, I think, which was big. Which goes throughout most resources is that you’re just not allowed to deprive him. So it is an obligation that women owe.

Kevin Lehman in Sheet Music said, “You know, when you get married, realize you’re signing up to have it at least two or three times a week for the rest of your life. And sometimes you might have to force yourself and you might want to shove him off of you. But you have to do it anyway as an act of obedience.”

Marriage Bible References Don’t Promote Marital Coercion

Sheila: So we actually measured that. We said, what happens if women have it when their primary motivation is because I have to. And it just leads to all sorts of terrible things in terms of marital satisfaction. And it drives the couple further and further apart.

Anne: I appreciated how you brought up what marital coercion is, which, to my knowledge, is not mentioned anywhere in any of these popular Christian books. They never say, if you don’t get your wife’s consent, then it’s rape, right? And I love how you brought that up. Were there any questions about marital rape in your study? Are Christian relationship books addressing this? No.

Sheila: What we did is we talked about it in some focus groups and in some follow up surveys. And what I can tell you is that of the women who left their email addresses, which was about 20 percent of the women who took our survey. About 20 percent of them said they had stories of marital rape to share with us. Which is a very high percentage. Now, obviously that was a self selected group, but none of the evangelical resources we looked at even said the word consent.

John Gottman’s book is the best selling marriage book on the secular market. Which we used as our control book Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work, that one spoke at length about consent. And so this is something which is talked about all the time in the secular world, which the Christian world has no idea how to talk about.

Every Man’s Battle: A Critical Look

Anne: Mm hmm, yeah, many of our listeners have experienced marital coercion. And so that number does not surprise me at all because we talk about it all the time. I don’t mean to make light of it, but it’s just something that’s common around here. So can we talk about Every Man’s Battle?

Sheila: Okay, so Every Man’s Battle basically says men will lust, and the book is strange, okay. Because it’ll give a lot of lists of things that men do. Like maybe you find yourself opening the door for her, but not out of honorable means. Just so that she can go first, and you can stare at her behind. You know, maybe you find yourself looking across the room at a woman where a button has come undone.

Maybe you find yourself masturbating in a gym car parking lot to see the women exiting the gym. And it’s like, excuse me. Or they’ll tell a story about this guy who’s watching TV. His sister-in-law is lying down on the floor on her stomach, and she falls asleep. And she’s got really short shorts on. So he masturbates there while she’s asleep on the floor. And they portray that as a sin against his purity, when really that is a sin against her.

This is the problem throughout that book. Every time he lusts, it is a sin against his purity. And she never enters the equation. Like whenever they talk about women, they give this gross discussion of this jogger at the beginning of the book. How her glistening flesh, ample bosom, and skin tight tie-dyed jogging suit, it’s just gross.

Treating Women Like Objects

Sheila: And then they say the solution to lust is to bounce your eyes and not look at women. And then to transfer all your energy to your wife. Stop lusting after everybody else and just lust after your wife. But, you know, lust is a sin, even if it’s after your wife. Like lust is just simply using someone else for your gratification. That’s what lust is. So you shouldn’t be lusting after your wife either.

You should love your wife and enjoy an intimate experience with her. Not just using her, but they think it’s okay to use her because she’s just your wife. Like you can’t defeat lust when you agree with lust’s definition of women. Lust’s definition of women is they exist as objects.

So the way I’m going to defeat lust is to never look at a woman because she’s a object. And then to treat my wife like a object, so that I don’t want to treat all these other women like objects. How about just simply learning how to respect women as whole people?

Anne: It’s not only a disservice to women, but also a disservice to men to say that men are incapable of treating women with respect. So you have to like what? Shut your eyes and Mr. Magoo through life.

Christian Books Magnify The Stress Of Maintaining Purity

Sheila: In the first chapter of Through A Man’s Eyes. It describes how stressful this man’s life is, because he’s trying to remain pure for his wife. So his entire workday is stressful. Because what if one of his coworkers is sitting across from him in their meeting, and her button is undone? Or what if another coworker, what if her skirt is too short? And what if the barista at the coffee shop, what if she’s wearing something tight?

What if he sees these billboards and he’s trying not to look at anybody all day, and then he gets home and he’s so happy that now he gets to look at his wife. And I read that and I’m like, Are men really that stressed their entire life? Like, is it that difficult to be a man? So I asked my husband, who’s a pediatrician, and he works in an all female environment. So all the other doctors are female. The nurses tend to be female. The parents who bring the kids in are female.

So I thought, if life is really this stressful, he’s going to have a terrible time. So I said, are you stressed all day because a woman might have a button undone or she might be too attractive? And he laughed at me. He didn’t think I was serious. And I said, no, no, I am serious. Like, is this difficult for you? That’s what some Christian relationship books say.

And he still laughed at me. But the book had told me that men will not confess this to you. Men will not tell you the truth. And so your husband won’t tell you the truth. So I’m wondering, is he just not telling me the truth?

Respecting Women As Whole People

Sheila: And then when he realized I was serious, he’s like, wait, no, there are guys like that? No, there’s not. I don’t want to share too much information, but my husband is not a low drive man. Like, okay, he’s got testosterone and everything.

And he thought this whole idea was the stupidest thing he’d ever heard, because my husband respects women. And he was really offended. He was offended that people would think a man can’t just respect women. And I just wish more men would get upset at the demeaning, horrible way these and other Christian books treat men.

Anne: I mean, I talk to my sons often about that. Like, when we went to a water park. And one of my sons was like, Mom, I don’t know if I want to go there, because there are so many girls in bikinis, and it kind of bothers me. And I said, well, what do you think would happen if they didn’t have a stomach, these women? What is their stomach for? I’m like, is it for you to look at? Or is it so they can eat?

And he was like, Oh, so they can eat. And I was like, and what are their legs for? What if a woman didn’t have legs? I’m trying to help him realize that women, regardless of what they’re wearing or doing, are people. And she’s not wearing a bikini to ruin your day. She’s just wearing a bikini, because she wants to go to the beach and soak up some sun.

Navigating Life With An Addicted Spouse

Anne: So many women when they find out about their husband’s explicit content use. They go into this mode where they’re like, we can’t go to the beach. We can’t go swimming. We can’t watch the Super Bowl. And suddenly, the things they can do narrow and narrow. And I’m not saying people should do things unethical or immoral. But I like going to the beach, you know, I want to go to the beach.

I want to go to a water park with my kids. And want to enjoy regular wholesome activities with my children. I have a lot of empathy for this, because I went through the same period where I felt traumatized when we went to the beach. I felt like we couldn’t watch movies. It’s such a weight to bear, your husband’s inability to treat women with respect.

Sheila: Well, first of all, I’m so sorry. You should never have to bear that. But in terms of how to handle that, if he can’t go to the beach, you can still go to the beach with your kids. Like, don’t wreck your own life. But the other thing is to remember what victory should look like. Victory means he can look at women as whole people. And that means that he needs to stop blaming women for his use and his lust.

The reason he’s lusting is not because of what she’s wearing. The reason he’s lusting is because of how he chooses to see women, and it is not her fault.

Christian Books Wrongfully Compare Your Wife To Methadone

Anne: Absolutely, we see that type of behavior and disrespect for women as an abuse issue. Here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we’ve got an emotionally and psychologically abusive man. Who is unable to view women as people, and that’s going to include you. In Chapter six, you say your wife is not your methadone. Around here, I say alcoholics abuse alcohol, drug addicts abuse drugs, and addicts abuse people. They use people as drugs.

Sheila: Yeah, when we first read the Christian book, Love and Respect, I was absolutely floored. Up until that time, I hadn’t read many evangelical marriage books or Christian marriage books, so I wasn’t aware of the prevailing interpretation of marriage bible references. Because I was always so scared of plagiarizing. So I read Love and Respect, the chapter said men need it in a way that women don’t. If men don’t get physical release, they’re going to have an affair, and women need to understand men’s lust problem.

And that’s all it said. It was terrible. And I wrote a blog post about this, and I was trying to convey how awful this was, like how absolutely abhorrent this was. I was talking to my daughter, and she said, well, it’s almost like he’s talking about women like they’re methadone. And I thought, yeah, that’s the perfect analogy. So we said like, women are not methadone.

And then I’m reading Every Man’s Battle, and they actually think that’s a selling feature. Like they use that line twice. They said once he quits cold turkey, be like a merciful vial of methadone for him.

Anne: Wow.

Sheila: Like they did it unironically. We were saying it ironically, they did it unironically.

A Disturbing Comparison

Sheila: Like they thought this was a good line. They have no clue. Let’s think about what that’s saying. Okay, methadone is a substitute. So if you’re addicted to opioids, what you want is the opioid. But you will settle for methadone, because it satiates you enough that you don’t feel the need to go after the opioid. So if we’re talking about this in the context of marriage and explicit content, what we’re saying is what he wants is to masturbate to that hot woman on the screen.

But he will settle for having it with you, because that will satiate him enough that he won’t go for the it right now. Like that’s disgusting. Women are not methadone.

Women are whole people made in the image of God, and we should never have been treated that way. And it’s absolutely unconscionable that the book series sold 4 million copies. Like where is the discernment and where are the leaders saying women are worth more than this? And I guess that’s what I want. I want people to understand that women are worth more than this.

We are precious, and it was never meant to be reduced to. Hey, let him ejaculate inside of you so that he doesn’t watch it. That is abusive in every way. Thank you for what you’re doing, because my heart is for those who have been betrayed. I pray this message will get out there, and that it will be a message of real freedom. And just to know that God wants wholeness, He wants real intimacy, and it is never ever his heart that any woman feel used.

Processing Trauma From Bad Advice

Anne: I am so grateful that you have shed light on these dangerous ideas. That many Christian women have had as the foundation of their understanding of what it is and what their “role” is in it. So the question is, how do we process the trauma we’ve experienced from all the bad advice? That we may have received from these Christian books and society over the years?

Sheila: I was in that culture, you know, that evangelical culture, which said men need it and women want affection. It’s usually the guy who’s frustrated. And women, what we need to do is understand how much he needs it. And in The Good Girls Guide, the Original, there was an element of it there. Because I was in that culture, and I was never comfortable with it. I always knew there was something wrong with it.

And I was actually one of the first people to talk a lot about higher drive wives. Because I did a big survey back then, and found out how many women actually have the higher drive. And it’s like they don’t exist, like they’re unicorns. No one ever talks about that. It’s just, Oh, he needs it and she doesn’t, but not always true. But you know, the more I listened to women.

The more I realized that we were missing out on a huge part of the story, and that was actually the impetus for doing that huge survey of 20, 000 women. We wanted to understand, do some evangelical teachings hurt women? Just like you said, they can cause actual trauma, and we were able to measure that.

Measuring The Harm Of Incorrect Interpretations of Marriage Bible References

Sheila: We can now say, Hey, if you believe all men struggle with lust, it’s Every Man’s Battle. It’s no wonder you don’t feel heard in your marriage. You’re like 47 percent less likely to feel heard in your marriage. Or 59%. less likely to feel like your opinions matter as much as his. This has major repercussions, we need to change the way we talk about it.

Anne: When you start peeling back these layers of maybe Christian teachings that you get from incorrect Incorrect Interpretations of marriage bible references, general clergy or even societally. We have listeners who aren’t Christian, agnostics or atheists. They tell us the same thing. Maybe in a movie there was a man who was cheating. The woman was like, okay, I’m going to put on cuter outfit and I’m going to get him back or win him back somehow.

So this isn’t just coming from Christian authors, but I think it’s more traumatic coming from Christian authors. Because you have some belief and trust that what they’re telling you is true, and it will help you. And if you follow their counsel or their teachings it’s God approved.

Sheila: Yeah, I think one of the problems actually is that it steals our last place of safety. Like when we say God wants you to have it with your husband, so that he doesn’t watch it. Then who do you go to now when you feel betrayed? Who do you go to now when you feel desperate? Like this is God sanctioned now, so you can’t even pray. Like you have nothing left. They’ve stolen God from you too. And I think that’s where a lot of the source of trauma comes from.

The Problem With Frequency Over Quality

Anne: That’s spiritual abuse. It’s spiritual coercion, essentially saying you’re not a godly person if you don’t give it to your husband when you don’t want it. And they’re also not saying, maybe you don’t want it for a good reason. Maybe because you don’t feel safe. Maybe because he’s been lying to you.

Sheila: That’s the big difference, what is the aim of all the advice? What are we actually working towards? And what we’re working towards is an emotionally healthy relationship. The way that we believe God intended. So we’re working towards a life which is intimate, pleasurable, and mutual. It’s going to be emotionally healthy. And that means you don’t do things that are emotionally unhealthy, that will hurt someone.

And yet, if you look at the advice often given in Christian circles and in the world, the aim is not necessarily emotional health. The aim is to keep your marriage together. Or make sure he feels good, or do this so that you will feel like a good wife. And it’s not actually about health, and should we be surprised when people end up hurt?

Anne: Yeah, it’s almost like the goal was simply to ensure that women have it with their husbands. Like that was the top priority. Because it seemed like the concern was, heaven forbid, a wife not having it with her husband. That is the, like, biggest problem in the world.

Sheila: Yeah, you know, what are the outcome variables for many of these negative teachings? And I know that sounds like outcome variables, super academic. But basically what we meant was if you believe certain things. How can we measure the harm it does or the good it does?

Measure Of A Healthy Marriage

Sheila: So for instance, if you believe women are obligated to give their husband it when they want it. We know that marital satisfaction goes down, l pain rates go up, and orgasm rates go down. If you believe you need to give your husband it or he’ll watch it, same thing. Marital satisfaction plummets, orgasm rates plummet. Same thing if you believe all men struggle with lust, same thing if you believe women have to be the gatekeepers.

So all these things we know have negative outcomes in terms of marital and satisfaction. But, and here’s the crucial but, they also have slightly higher frequency rates. Not like a huge amount. We’re not talking like six times a week versus once a month. We’re talking like, you know, 2.8 times a week instead of 2.3.

And so the question we had was, does this mean that Evangelical leader’s main measure of a healthy life is how often they have it? Rather than how good the it is and how good the marriage is? And we would argue that, yeah, that’s what it means. They think frequency is everything.

Anne: Mm, so in some of the incorrect interpretations of marriage bible references religious they think anything that would decrease frequency is some kind of threat.

Sheila: Yes, healthier marriages tend to lead to happier people, but that’s not considered a viable alternative. You and I were talking before we started recording about how he said that even though we shouldn’t feel obligated to have it with our spouses, we need to realize that it should be a sacrifice. At least some of the time, and you should have to give it, even if you don’t want to.

Obligation Intimacy: A Harmful Message of Incorrect Interpretations of Scripture

Sheila: And so it’s like he’s saying on the one hand that obligation intercourse is bad. But then, on the other hand, he’s saying to women. In the same way that you get up in the middle of the night and feed your newborn, even with your sore nipples and everything. So, we need to consider the needs of the other person. And so it’s like he just can’t get rid of this obligation message.

And I think it comes down to the fact that many evangelical pastors, leaders, and probably many people in the wider culture just believe women don’t like it. That if you give them the choice, they won’t have it. That women are not intimate beings. They truly believe that. And so the only way to get women to have it is to tell them they have to. And that’s what we’re arguing against.

We’re trying to set the record straight and say, obligation intimacy doesn’t feel good. That’s not what you want. If you treat your wife like she has to give you it, you will wreck it.

Anne: Yeah.

Sheila: Can I tell you the story about Bob?

Anne: Tell me the Bob story. What about Bob?

Sheila: What about Bob? Okay, his real name is not Bob. I like that name. But anyway, he was a commenter on my blog. And he told me his story. So they’ve been married for 40 years, so I assume he’s in his sixties. And he said, when they first got married, they would have it several times a week, and she always enjoyed it.

The Story Of Bob: A Lesson in Intimacy

Sheila: Like he always made sure she came to orgasm. But then he would say things like, I don’t understand why we don’t do this more often. It’s so great. You like it so much. Why don’t we do it more often? He constantly said this to her. And over a series of years, she just started wanting it less and less. She still has an orgasm, but she has it maybe once every six weeks.

And he says, you know, I would be glad to give up my orgasm so that I can give her pleasure, but she won’t let me. She doesn’t understand that it is how I feel intimate. And I’m reading this and I’m thinking, Okay, so she’s having it several times a week with you, and she’s having a good time, and she’s reaching orgasm, and what do you do? You keep telling her that what she’s doing is wrong and not good enough.

And then you tell her that you don’t feel intimate with her unless she’s having it with you. So that means that all the times she feels like she’s connecting with you her way, don’t register with you. And so eventually she’s going to feel really cheap, and she’s going to stop wanting to have it.

This woman simply didn’t want it as often. It wasn’t that she didn’t want it. It wasn’t that she didn’t like it. She just didn’t want it as often. He treated that like a problem, and it created a problem.

Intimacy and Emotional Health: A Crucial Connection

Anne: So, this is interesting, because many abusive men say the same thing. They say, there’s no problem with me using it. And she’s saying it’s a problem, and then it makes it a problem. The way they interpret these marriage bible references tends to say to women is that you don’t matter as much as I do.

If you’re trying to make it a problem, it’s not really a problem. And if I’m trying to make it a problem, it’s for sure a problem. And the one who decides is the man. Whatever his opinion is about it, either way, is just more valid than yours.

Sheila: Yeah, absolutely, like we said earlier, what is the goal? If the goal is emotional health, then what we want is an emotionally healthy relationship. And an emotionally healthy relationship means you connect not just sexually, but also in other ways. And what often happens today is that many men do not feel any drive for any kind of emotional intimacy. So they’ll play video games for eight hours a day, and then they’ll want it.

Like, one of my pet peeves is calling sex intimacy. It is not intimacy. Like, they’re not synonyms. And yet we treat them like they’re synonyms. One of the most depersonalizing, dehumanizing, unintimate things is to have it with someone who is not there with you. Who is fantasizing about someone else, who is obviously not thinking about you. Who is using you. That is the opposite of intimacy.

Anne: I have been on very few dates, um, since my divorce, but I did go on a date the other night.

A Personal Story: Prioritizing Emotional Health

Anne: And in the course of the date, I said to him, you know, I don’t care if I ever have it. I’m good with it either way. Like it doesn’t matter to me. If I never have it again, it’s fine. And, apparently, you’re not supposed to say this on a date, Sheila. And he spent the rest of the night mansplaining to me how this was not a way to talk to a man on a date. I was going to have a marketing problem, he said. And I said, well, if I’m not selling anything, then I don’t have a marketing problem.

So I don’t see what the problem is, because I don’t care what you think about me having it or not. Anyway, it was a very interesting exchange, and the more I thought about it. The more I thought, I’m will say this on every first date. Because it does NOT motivate me at all.

I want to be motivated by an intimate emotional relationship, and then if that leads to an intimate relationship sometime in the future, fine. But like it is not my motivation. But it also led me to think that it is this guy’s motivation. And that’s not what I’m looking for.

Sheila: You know, John Gottman said something interesting in his book, Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work. He said he believes the next great stage in human development. The next big breakthrough we’re going to make, is men’s emotional health. That right now men as a whole, and this isn’t me man bashing. This is just simply look at the stats. If you measure relative emotional health, emotional maturity, that sort of thing, women outscore men almost universally.

Women Tend To Outscore Men

Sheila: And by universally, I don’t mean every woman. I mean, throughout classes, throughout ages, like different age, different demographic groups, women tend to do better than men. Now, obviously there are some men who are extremely emotionally healthy, and there are some women who are not emotionally healthy. But just on the whole, in these different segments, women tend to outscore men.

And he thinks this is what’s changing. And I actually believe it. If you look at the way millennial dads parent, and increasingly Gen Z. I’m like how Gen Z dads, the young ones parent, are much more emotionally available. And they’re much more engaged with their kids. You know, this is something that we’re trying to bring home, is that it does not replace intimacy.

And often the reason someone has this insatiable drive, they can never get enough. It’s not actually their drive. If they feel insecure, they need it to make them feel better. If they feel bored, they need it to make them feel better. And If they’re worried about rejection or stress, they need it. And they’re not turning to it because they have this urge to feel close to you.

Anne: Well, and in that case, the partner is just being used to feel better about themselves. So it makes her feel more isolated, more and more used. It can create more and more feelings of resentment and sadness if he’s just thinking about an orgasm. He’s not going to care that it’s miserable for her.

Sheila: Right. And again, it’s only been more recently that I’ve started listening. That I’ve understood how wrong a lot of our understanding of it is.

Changing Beliefs

Sheila: Because you know, when I got married 30 years ago, I believed he needed it to feel love. Because that’s what everyone told me. So if he said I just feel like we never connect, I would feel so guilty. I would feel like he is experiencing a kind of rejection that I will never understand. I’m incapable of understanding how much he needs this because he’s a man and I can’t understand as a woman what a man goes through.

And so no matter what I’m experiencing, what he’s experiencing must be worse. Because this is what we’re told, and I played a part in teaching some of that. I did say some of these things.

Um, it’s funny. My publisher contracted with my husband and me to write The Good Guy’s Guide to Great, because they wanted a companion book. And we were all for that, because we just wanted to tell men how to do this in a healthy way. But I begged them to let me rewrite The Good Girl’s Guide. And it was a bit of a fight because it was still selling really well. It’s always sold well since it came out.

But I was like, I can’t sell it in all good conscience. Now that I’ve listened to people with that survey of 20, 000, I’ve changed the way I think about libido. The way I think about frequency, and the way I think about intimacy. So they went up several committees, and finally let me rewrite it. And I didn’t get paid anything to do it. I wrote an entirely new book, but I think we’re getting healthier.

The Importance of Setting Boundaries

Sheila: Like the discussions, so encouraged me that have been happening. And I feel like you and I are on different sides of the same discussion. Like how do we get to what is healthy, and how do we acknowledge what is harmful and deal with it appropriately?

Anne: Yeah, I remember when I recognized my life was unhealthy, so I stopped initiating it. But I was the one who initiated it all the time. And I told my husband at the time, we’re now divorced, I’m not going to initiate anymore. I need to figure myself out, I’m not blaming this on you. And then he never initiated. There was nothing. He never talked about it. He never said anything. It was like it didn’t exist. And I thought, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait.

I’ve been initiating it for seven years, and then I say, hmm, I’ve got to figure some things out. I’m not having a good time anymore. You go ahead if you want, and he never initiated it. So if I tell people that timeline, you could probably say she stopped initiating, they stopped having it. And then within six months he was arrested, and then they got divorced. So was it my fault for stopping it? Many women might think this, and they’re afraid to set boundaries in marriage with their husband.

They’re afraid to say, wait, whoa, I have some needs here. I don’t feel safe. I’m going to step back. They’re afraid of this happening. They don’t want their marriages to fall apart. Their marriages are top priority.

Abuse vs. Divorce: Understanding The Real Problem

Anne: To these women, I want to say, if you take this route and end up divorced like me. I do not want you to get from my story. Don’t have it with your husband equals divorce, and it’s your fault. Or that you’ve done something wrong. Because the problem in my case was that I was not enjoying it because I was being abused. And I stopped having it for good reason, and it was healthy for me to do so. Then I ended up divorced from my abusive spouse. Which is not a bad thing.

Even though I don’t necessarily believe in divorce, I certainly don’t believe in being abused. So, many people are like, divorce is the cause of all these problems or whatever. And I’m like, actually abuse is the cause. Like, abuse is the problem. Abuse is the thing that is hurting you. So, just get clear about what is causing the problems. It’s not necessarily you deciding, wait a minute. This isn’t fun for me.

Sheila: Well, I’ve got two thoughts on that. The first is, again, what is the goal? Things aren’t magically going to get better, because you keep having it and you keep trying to be nicer. If your goal is emotional health, then doing things which protect your emotional health will be helpful in the long run. And, you know, by saying, I’m not going to initiate anymore, what you did was allow a light to be shone in an area where it needed to be shone. because we’re still connecting.

Making Health, Peace & Safety A Priority

Sheila: But when you stop having it, it lays bare all these other things. And so I don’t think anyone should do that lightly. But if having it causes me emotional unhealth, that needs to be addressed. You need to protect your emotional health. And when you do that, the health of every other part of your relationship is more likely to be evident.

Anne: My listeners are married to abusive men. So when we’re talking about my particular skills. I don’t want to say that. But when I talk about these listeners, I think their main concern is setting boundaries and being afraid of things getting worse. And it’s true. When you have an abuser and start setting boundaries, things get worse before they get better. And I understand that concern.

But I always say if you make health, peace, and safety your priority, you will make your way through the fog. It is a scary road, because you’ve got clergy and people around you, accusing you. What? You didn’t have it with your husband? Like that’s a mortal sin. And you might get accused of being abusive. In fact, I’d say most of our listeners have been accused of being abusers themselves. But the thing to consider is, do I want a life of peace?

And you’re never going to know what’s possible until you start making your way toward that. And it might mean you end up divorced, and it might mean you can have a healthy relationship with your husband. That you’ve never had before. Maybe he’ll step up to the plate. We don’t know these things until we start making our way.

The Role Of Prayer In Finding Peace

Anne: And I think it’s interesting that all the pressure is on the woman to not start down that road, rather than being on the man.

Sheila: And I think there’s a reason for that. There’s a reason why the pressure is on the woman. And that’s because she’s actually invested in saving the marriage. He doesn’t want to save the marriage. He just wants someone to control. The wife often wants to save the marriage. And so she can be convinced to change. They can’t convince him to change, and I think about all the marriage books and bible references that Christian women read desperate to find the formula to change their husband.

They read Power of a Praying Wife, and they pray so hard. I really had a problem with some of these Christian interpretations, because it had a whole list of husbands that can be changed through prayer. And abusiveness was one of the things that you could pray against. And it’s like, no, honey, if he’s abusive, you don’t just pray against it. You get help. And I would just say to desperate women. I know you want to save your marriage.

I know you want things to be better, but please don’t think prayer is the answer. Prayer is the answer to helping you find peace and health. Yes, but God doesn’t force someone else to change. It gives us all free will. You can’t pray your husband to health. God won’t force your husband to change. What God can do, I think, is give you strength, fortitude, wisdom, insight, friends and support. And all kinds of stuff to navigate these roads that are ahead of you.

Pray For Deliverance

Sheila: But I think so often we’re searching for that magic formula. That magic prayer, that magic way to behave that’s going to change everything. And it just isn’t there. So ultimately, we have to decide, what does emotional health look like for me? And where am I likely to find it? That’s the scary thing. I know, but I hope we don’t add guilt to the mix where you feel like it’s a failure. If you start saying, no, I’m not going to initiate it anymore. You know, it doesn’t mean you’re a bad wife.

Anne: A good wife sets the bar high for an emotionally healthy, happy marriage. And I’m going to make my way toward that. And if you want to do that, fine, if not, I’m on my way to health, regardless of what you’re going to do. That is what the world’s best wife would do. When it comes to praying. I always recommend women pray for deliverance. I think that’s the best thing to pray for. Because then God can metaphorically part the Red Sea, and you can walk through.

It’s not going to be fun. You’re going to have a lot of opposition, but God can deliver you and make your way out. And in some women’s cases, the deliverance from the abuse may come in the form of their husband changing. It might, but we don’t know what the deliverance is going to look like. I do think deliverance is a prayer God can answer.

Sheila: Exactly, I love that. That is so good.

Encouragement For Women: Speak Up

Sheila: And, as someone who talks to the other side of this whole issue. How do we get other religious leaders, Christian leaders and society leaders to listen? Because your audience has been crying out for years, and people aren’t listening. And I just want people to know that I’m trying to listen and want a healthy message to get out there. But as a little encouragement, your voices are strong.

And I know it feels like everybody is against you. And if things fall apart, you’re going to be blamed, and that often is the case. But in the broader scheme of things, we are seeing people start to wake up to this stuff. So I just want to tell people who, maybe you’re on the other side of abuse. Like speak up, leave book reviews, leave comments on social media. Like let’s be loud, because I think our voices are making a difference. I really do.

It might be that in your personal circle, no one’s listening, but in the wider circle, they are. And people often have an easier time listening to strangers than their sister, which is terrible. It shouldn’t be that way, but it’s true. And so there’s probably an abused woman out there praying for someone to get through to their pastor or best friend.

You may not get through to your sister, but you might get through to someone else’s sister. And they might get through to your sister.

Finding Emotional Health & Safety

Sheila: So the more we speak up to the strangers, the more we help ourselves in a way. So just be encouraged. I think God does see you, and God’s doing an amazing thing. He’s shaking everything. I think He’s going to war for his daughters. Who have been mistreated, and so take heart and courage. We just want emotional health and safety for people.

And if you’re not in that kind of community, then I hope you can find one. Because they are out there, even if they are hard to find, but they are out there. Again, the saddest part is that we’ve stolen God from people.

Because when we tell women, God wants you to give your husband it when he wants it. God wants you to perform sexually, so he doesn’t watch pornography. We make God into our abuser, and we make God into the one who is coercing us. So I hope that as women go through the process of deconstructing all these messages. They will realize that was never God’s voice, and that that message hurt God too. Because he never, ever wanted you to feel that.

Anne: Thank you so much, Sheila. I appreciate all your hard work and willingness to stand for the truth.

Sheila: Thanks for having me. It’s always a pleasure.

Fighting a narcissist for custody is usually a complex, painful, and grueling process that can take years. Tina Swithin joins Anne to educate and empower victims as they fight for their children in and out of court.

If you need support, learn about our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions.

#Intimidation And More Abuse In A Custody Battle With A Narcissist A Custody Battle With A Narcissist

When victims of narcissistic abuse start a custody battle, the narcissist might . . .

• Turn family and friends against you, saying you’re crazy, abusive, a bad mom, etc.
• Shame you for putting the children through a divorce
• Threaten to take the children
• Cut off financial support
• Put cameras in your home, car, etc

Expecting more emotional, psychological, and even physical abuse is a must for every woman in a custody battle with a narcissist.

BTR has Certified High Conflict Divorce Coaches, who can help you through the process. Attend a BTR Group Session TODAY.

#2 Lies, Lies & More Lies In A Custody Battle With A Narcissist

Divorcing a narcissist means dealing with lies and manipulation. It can be frustrating to hear the falsehoods and out of the courtroom. Narcissists lie to judges, attorneys, police officers, colleagues. They’ll even lie to your boss, family, friends, and children.

Understanding why they do this is crucial. The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop explains their behavior and offers strategies to protect yourself during a custody battle.

It’s especially hard when a narcissistic abuser lies to the court. Women often find themselves defending against things they haven’t done.

The Narcissist

Most courts don’t take narcissistic abuse seriously. Many women are treated as if they are crazy, lying, or exaggerating. Knowing this can help women plan ahead.

Victims can:

• Hire a lawyer who understands abuse and trauma
• Talk to a divorce expert, like a BTR Coach, for advice on how to act in court
• Take The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop

At BTR, we understand the fear that comes with a custody battle against a narcissist. The fear of losing your children can get intense.

Every victim deserves a safe place to ask questions, and connect with others who understand. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions meet daily in every time zone.

We’d love to see you in a Group Session TODAY.

FIGHTING A NARCISSIST FOR CUSTODY Transcript: Fighting A Narcissist For Custody

Anne: Tina Swithin is joining me on today’s episode.I’m so honored that she’s willing to share her story with us.

Tina survived, a category five divorce hurricane, while acting as her own attorney in a high conflict custody battle that turned her family’s life upside down for 10 years. She took shelter from the storm by chronicling her journey in her now internationally recognized blog, One Mom’s Battle, with all odds against her. Tina’s battle ended on August 30th, 2019. When she successfully terminated her ex-husband’s parental rights.

She continues to champion children’s rights through her family court advocacy.

Welcome, Tina.

Tina: Thank you so much for having me. I’m absolutely honored to be here.

Dealing With Hidden Abuse

Anne: Tina. You are impressive. Your story and resources inspired me to believe that I could also be delivered. From the post-separation and financial abuse in divorce that my children and I went through. And we did. And I now teach women’s strategies. I used to get free in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop.

My listeners are all women experiencing hidden abuse in one form or another. So women who listen to this podcast without their husband knowing are generally at the beginning of their journey in recognizing the abuse. For example, they may have found exploitative material on a computer, or suspect their husband is having an affair. Women who listen to this podcast in general have found something about their husband and are trying to grapple with, what do I do now?

Although many women who use services at Betrayal Trauma Recovery are already divorced. But talking about women who are not thinking of divorce may be thinking, “Let’s try couple’s therapy, or maybe if I could get him a diagnosis, that would help.”

I’d love your perspective on what they need to prepare for, just in case, even if they’re not sure if they want to get divorced. Sort of like having a savings account, you know, you never want to lose your job, but you have a savings account just in case you do. Can we start there?

Recognizing Narcissistic Abuse

Anne: It’s so hard especially when your in-laws are emotionally abusive too. What do you wish you had known years before you even recognized your husband was a narcissist?

Tina: Absolutely. I relate so much to the foundation of your program. In my situation, it was a infidelity of sorts. When I had my awakening, that something was really off. I found out that we had debt over a million dollars, and he did that behind my back. Still, to this day, with all the information I have. I can’t. grasp that amount of money, how someone can go in debt to that degree. So I had my entire world pulled out from under me.

I ended up on a therapist’s couch, because the gaslighting was so intense, desperate to understand my role. Still trying to take ownership of issues and understand what I could do to fix him.

I still remember I had never heard the term narcissistic personality disorder. My therapist gave me those three words and had me read the description. I was relieved, because I thought, Oh my gosh, if I know what we’re dealing with. If there’s a label, if there’s a diagnosis, even though she couldn’t diagnose him, but she said, I think you’re a victim of narcissistic abuse.

Back then, I was a fixer, so in my mind, I was so excited to have something to work with.

Desire To Fix The Relationship

Anne: Yeah, that desire to resolve it is actually a form of resistance to abuse. Finding out you have a narcissistic husband gave you something to fix. It’s one of the many ways victims try to get to safety. So you were always working towards safety, resisting the abuse. By going to therapy, trying to resolve the problem. Resistance comes in different forms. And as we learn more effective strategies. We can actually start to gain some traction and start making our way to safety.

But yeah, it’s so common to think that like, “Oh, I can go to therapy with him and we can actually resolve this. We can get help.”

Tina: Yeah, I remember going home and telling him, “She said, you’re a narcissist.” We looked it up. Six months later, I understood she was trying to tell me: there is no fixing this. This is either your life or you leave. And it took me a while to grasp that. So I would have had time to plan, but back then, there were no resources for this type of situation. I’m really thankful for the work you’re doing, because it gives people information on how to prepare for something like this.

Fighting A Narcissist For Custody Begins

Tina: I don’t know if you can ever fully be prepared. But things that I wish I would have done differently. I’m getting a full financial picture of our situation. I was in the dark with finances, to the point where I had no idea how much money we had. We lived in a gated community, in a nice home.

If I wanted a car, we got me a new car. And I lived a life where I had no insight. Grocery money is in my checking account. But I am kept in the dark. So when our divorce and child custody battle started. I didn’t know what to put on that paperwork. I truly had no idea where the money was, what was happening.

And for that reason, I started my new life and my new chapter with less than $200 to my name. I suffered financial abuse, which was a huge part of the abuse I suffered. Although during the marriage, I didn’t know that was financial abuse. I just thought he took care of everything. And when we ended up in the family court system, he hired an attorney.

https://youtu.be/gvxpK9yloco

I was not. I stood in court like a deer in the headlights. With no knowledge of the system, I had never been in court. I am very conflict avoidant by nature, and so it was a very uneven playing field. It’s not what you know, it’s what you can prove. And I wasn’t able to prove anything. I was at a huge disadvantage.

Documenting Abuse While Fighting For Custody

Tina: I would have also been documenting the issues directly related to my children, and how he affected them. I look back and want to hug myself 12 years ago, because in my naive mind, he had never participated in our daughter’s lives. He had never changed a diaper. He never cared to be involved. And so I assumed I would continue parenting, and he would have limited involvement.

Well, that’s not what happens when you divorce a narcissist. He knew that the children were all I cared about. And so you can imagine that’s exactly where he went. But I had no proof. In reality, a lot of it doesn’t matter. If somebody stands up in the family court system and says, Hey, I’ve never been a parent. But I’m here, put me in coach, they’re going to give them the opportunity.

But I needed to document the things that were damaging to my children. The abuse, the emotional abuse, the short temper, things where his behaviors obviously affected my children.

Anne: So you hear the therapist tell you maybe he’s a narcissist. And the only thing you can do with a narcissist is just survive narcissistic abuse. And you start thinking, okay, “Well maybe we can get help now.” I want to talk about this stage for a minute, because many women are trying to get help for their husband. Again, that’s a form of resistance, because you’re trying to make sure the abuse stops. I found that a lot of women in this stage don’t want to get divorced. Because divorce is not an option for them. They also don’t want education about divorce.

Loneliness & Seeing Who He Really Is

Anne: In my situation, I didn’t file for divorce, he did, and I was unprepared. So once we find out something serious about our husband, even if divorce isn’t on the table for us. Being prepared for what could happen is so important. Because once we see reality, once we see a narcissist, and begin fighting a narcissist for custody, we see who he really is,

We don’t know what he’s going to do. So in the Living Free Workshop, we actually have a section about financial safety. Even if women aren’t considering divorce, so they can be financially safe. No matter what’s going to happen. Can you talk about that time after the therapist told you her theory that he was a narcissist, and after you confronted him? And said, “Hey, she said you’re a narcissist, let’s try to figure this out.”

Tina: Two years before I ended up on that therapist’s couch, I had emotionally checked out. I knew things were really wrong. I remember sitting down with him one day and saying, I feel that if someone even gave me a hug right now, I would have an affair with them and that is not who I am.

Also, I never cheated on anyone in my life, but I was trying to describe to him how lonely I felt. I was married, but I never felt more alone in my life. Even when I was single, I have not felt this isolated and alone. It was around that time that I ended up in the therapist’s office. He refused to go.

Therapy & Gaslighting

Tina: So when she gave me those words that started my journey to enlightenment on the topic, I went home. He listened to what I had to say. And he said, that doesn’t sound like me. That sounds like my dad. And in my mind, I’m laughing going, well, he and his dad are the same person.

But at that point, he knew that I was ready to leave. And so he agreed to go to therapy with me. But here’s the funny part. He insisted it be a man, and it be a PhD. So we found this psychologist, and spent six months in what could be described as marital therapy. And it was at about the six month mark, where we unpacked everything and it was all out there.

And the psychologist said, “I really think you should do a psychological evaluation. I think there could be a personality disorder or something deeper that I’m not qualified to diagnose.”

That was the day my ex-husband said our marriage was over. We drove there in separate cars, and he called me afterwards. And said, “I just called the psychologist and told him that we’re done with marriage therapy and that it’s over. Because you have successfully manipulated him.”

The gaslighting, and I’m thinking, did I manipulate him? I was just sharing our truth. I remember feeling like I was punched in the gut during the marriage therapy. The therapist originally wanted to meet with me privately, then him privately, and then us both together.

Therapist Recognizes Husband’s Lies & Abuse Escalates

Tina: But his lies were so thick, and I was constantly saying, but that’s not what happened. This is what happened. To the point where the therapist said, “I don’t feel comfortable meeting with him alone, because I can’t trust anything he says. I need Tina here to verify the truth.”

Anne: That is so remarkable. In so many cases I hear about, the therapist believes him. That the therapist took this, stepped back and was like, “Mmm, he’s not telling the truth.” That is a good therapist right there.

Tina: Absolutely. I’m so grateful, not only for the one who originally planted the seed, but also for that one, because for me, it was validation, and most people don’t get that. Even in the world of therapy, there are so many therapists and psychologists who are not trained in narcissistic abuse. To where I wouldn’t have received that validation from most mental health professionals. So I’m incredibly grateful. That was the end of our marriage.

The irony is that I wasn’t the one who filed for divorce. I wish it was just him going in and filing. It was actually him terrorizing me before he filed for divorce. I had gone to my sister’s house for the weekend, and he basically had moving vans ready. The second I pulled out of the driveway. He took everything I owned, completely stripped my house bare.

Bizarre Behaviors

Tina: It was the most bizarre chilling scene to walk back into. He had redecorated my bedroom to look like that of a toddler’s. It’s hard to even describe to this day, cleared my house of every material possession that I owned, so that he could go in and say that all happened during our marriage, and we have no assets. And then the next day he went and filed for divorce. Very sociopathic, is what a lot of professionals have pointed out to me.

Anne: That is so crazy. And so chilling. It reminds me of when my ex, we were married, had a protective order, and he came to remove all his stuff out of the house. I wasn’t there, but my dad was. My dad said it was the strangest and most bizarre scene. He said my ex acted as if he were going on a camping trip. Not packing up his entire life, and leaving his own home, his own children, and his own wife.

It was as if nothing happened and he was just packing up. For, you know, a couple of days. And it’s so chilling and weird. So I really empathize with that. You talked about two things you wish you would’ve known. So the first was to be more aware of the finances. And the second was to document the damage he’d done to your children because you would soon be dealing with custody.

Let’s talk about the divorce process itself. And how many bizarre things can use the actual divorce process as an extension of the abuse to continue abusing.

Post-Separation Abuse When Fighting For Custody

Tina: Right, and before we do that, I want to add, a third one. That I think, in reflection, in hindsight, that I would really emphasize is choosing your battles wisely. The narcissist will invite you to so many different battles. And when you engage in every one of them, it muddies the water for the family court system. So then It looks like you’re both high conflict.

So that would be the third one that I would add, in addition to the financial picture and documentation. Is really choosing your battles wisely and being aware of what the court cares about and what they don’t.

And then, to answer your question, I refer to it as post separation abuse, everything that happens from the day of your separation, and sometimes even leading up to the day of separation, the calculating and the manipulation that goes on behind the scenes. The post separation abuse that I experienced was by far worse than the abuse I suffered during our marriage.

Post separation abuse can be the smear campaigns. We live in a very small town, a small community, and we were both very active in the business community. He went on an absolute smear campaign in an effort to further isolate me and make sure that I had no friends or resources.

I mean, he told people that I had all these affairs. That was not true. He was concerned about my mental health around the children when I was fighting for custody. That was not true, but when people know both of us as this golden couple in the community, and someone says something like this, you know, why would someone make that up? I think that’s what many people are left with, unless there was truth.

Grooming & Using Children as Pawns

Tina: Using my children as pawns, as weapons in our custody battle, was another difficult thing for me to grasp. Because during the marriage, I protected my kids. I sheltered them. I went to great lengths to ensure they were away from him whenever he was in a mood or whatnot.

And then their children are now in, and he said, “You know, you don’t have to take care of this person, and you have no control.” I had a hard time with that. And he knew the kids were the way to hurt me.

Anne: So many women I talk to when they’re considering separation will say something like, Oh, he would never do that. He told me it’s okay, and I think to myself, grooming, grooming, grooming, grooming, just wait a second. You’ll see a different side of him than you have ever seen before. When you haven’t separated yet, he has some modicum of control over you or power over you.

That’s what they thrive on. So post separation, they’re just desperately trying to get control back. Parts of them come out that you’ve never seen before . So what would you say to a woman who says that? Like, “oh, he’ll never do that. He’s a good guy. We’ve talked about it before. I’ve been the primary caregiver. He wants to do the right thing.” what would you say to her?

Tina: I tell people take the darkest example of who that person was during your relationship on his absolute worst day or his worst rage or the worst, day of abuse. That is who you are dealing with at a core level. And everything else is just a mask.

Setting Boundaries While LItigating With A Narcissist For Custody

Tina: The family court system to some degree allows you to start having boundaries, whether it be, with communication or the parenting time schedule, they don’t like that for me. I thought during my marriage, a boundary was police tape law enforcement put up.

That’s the only thing I really knew about boundaries. I had none. And so for me to say, you know, you can call the kids between six o’clock and eight o’clock at night. That was a boundary. Something that small would spin the person. They’re triggered by boundaries so be aware of this when dealing with a narcissist in a custody battle.

They’re triggered by you having a voice, becoming empowered, and they have to continue to try to exert control. In the court system, they can keep that mask on very tight because it’s, it’s a high for them to fool everybody in the court system.

But that dark person, that rage that you saw at whatever point in your relationship, that is who you are dealing with outside of the court. And. The children become their primary weapons. I don’t care what they said during the relationship. All of it is fair game in their eyes to keep control. And sometimes that’s extreme.

Anne: So for women listening to this and considering divorce. And they’re thinking, wait a minute, Tina just said it gets worse. Wait a minute. Tina just said the abuse is, and I would agree, it’s always going to get worse before it gets better.

So you can think Tina and Anne said this. And they’re like, why would I get divorced then? Why would I try to start setting these boundaries. What would you say to them?

Teaching Children & Fighting A Narcissist For Custody

Tina: On any given day, I receive between a hundred and 500 emails. The most heartbreaking, heart wrenching emails I receive on any given day. Are from the moms who say, “20 years ago, we didn’t have this type of education. And I was afraid to leave, and now my children have grown, and they carry on the cycle either as the abuser, or as a victim of abuse. And my daughter is now married to an exact replica of my husband.”

So my opinion is even if I walk into that courtroom and get 50 -50 when fighting for custody, First of all, I don’t believe there’s anything permanent in family court. I am very much of the mindset that, okay, great, if that’s my starting point, I’m going to chip away at it until I can put my head on my pillow at night and know that my kids are safe. And I know that triggers people and they go, oh my , I can’t imagine not having my kids 50 percent of the time.

When your kids are growing up in a situation where they don’t have any area to see what healthy looks like, it is more damaging, in my opinion. Even if I had my children 50 percent of the time to show them what healthy looks like, to show them what empowerment looks like, to teach them about boundaries, and to listen to their gut and instincts, and that their voice matters.

I used to teach my kids at a very early age, what red flags were. My daughter would come home from the playground and she’d say, mom, this girl did this, and it was a red flag.

When Your Children Have To Spend Time With Them

Tina: And so we don’t have the opportunity to teach our kids those things when we live in red flags. When that is your life. Yeah, you have the ability to show them a solid, healthy foundation, lead by example, and be their role model. You have way more power to protect your kids over the long haul than you would in that relationship.

Anne: Yeah, that’s important for women to think about when fighting for custody. The example they are to their children is setting boundaries. I like to think of it as two fishbowls. The bowl he is in will always have cloudy water. And if you’re also living in that fishbowl, they’re not going to see things clearly, but if you live in a fishbowl with clear water. Then when they are in the fishbowl with you, everything will be clear and you’ll set a good example.

When they’re in the fishbowl with him, it will be cloudy, but then they’ll start to recognize, oh, the water over here is clean and the water over there is cloudy. And they can start telling the difference. In your book, The Narcissist Decoder, you put some of your X’s insane emails in there as an example.

I did something similar to that in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop where for years I gathered abusive messages, both my own. And then also women that I helped. So those are real abusive messages in there. And then examples of how to respond to them and your book. The narcissist decoder is similar.

Abusive Messaging When Coparenting with A Narcissist

Anne: Your ex was an alcoholic, which you could prove, you could prove that he showed up late frequently. The Living Free Workshop includes examples from five different real life abusers. So you can see the different abusive styles in these messages. I’ve included my own X’s messages in the Living Free Workshop. My ex is an attorney, he wrote everything perfectly. He didn’t swear. He gaslit a ton. But it sounded so good.

Then in real life, he always showed up on time. He brought them back on time.

Tina, from your perspective, what recommendations would you have for women in situation with a narcissist a cunning, but squeaky clean type narcissist during custody?

Tina: That’s a really difficult situation, and it’s one that’s fairly common. You know, you have those who are much better at impression management, is what I call it.

The CEOs, the sales guys, the ones who, their livelihood depends on their image. Or they’re very savvy and would never put something in writing that’s going to give you the ammunition to show, you know, look, their words and actions are not in alignment. Something that I’m big on is profiling exactly who you’re up against.

Empowering Children

Tina: Time hop in your mind. If you time hop one year, three years or five years, is this person capable of parenting? Because what we know is that parenting can be selfless work. It can be tedious. Where there’s not a lot of supply you can get from your kids when you’re doing the monotonous, day-to-day parenting stuff.

A lot of these people, what you’ll see is that over time, they’ll cancel on parenting time, or they have a big event that they go to, So sometimes it’s just chipping away at it from that angle. When the battle dies down and they’re not getting supply from constant court dates, a lot of them tend to phase out of the picture or they’ll start leaving the kids with other people.

I call the discarding of the kids, where, for 50-50. But then you’ll find they’re leaving your kids with their mom or caregiver. And so then you’re documenting and building your case from that perspective. It is very difficult to go up against somebody who is very savvy with what they put in writing. Those are things that are out of our control.

So if you have somebody who presents so well and is never going to give you what you need to hold them accountable in court, that’s where your focus and your energy becomes empowering your kids during these custody battles. Like I touched on a minute ago, um, you know, really strengthening them and empowering them. So they are resistant to their husbands gaslighting.

Narcissistic Relationships While In A Custody Battle

Tina: They know that they have boundaries that are physical, emotional, and psychological. Really creating labels for all of those things that many of us didn’t learn. So sometimes the focus just becomes empowering our kids to withstand something like this and to connect the dots on their own. I tell people you can empower your kids and teach them what healthy looks like and what toxic looks like without ever pointing the finger at their other parent.

And when they come home and connect those dots by themselves, it’s much more powerful than anything you could ever say. And in those things, situations. That’s where we see that preteens or teenagers recognize how dysfunctional the other parent is. They become their own empowered little warriors to say, “I’m not going this weekend.”

Anne: You mentioned the word toxic. When people say toxic relationship, the hairs on the back of my neck stand up . Same thing with high conflict divorce. These are words that imply that both of them have a problem. They’re not good for each other. Rather than recognizing there’s a toxic person, poisoning the relationship and the other person’s healthy, but she’s getting sick from his poison.

Or the same thing with high conflict divorce, you’re literally just trying to tell the truth. You’re literally just trying to hold on to reality. And the reason why it’s such a huge fight and the conflict is so enormous is that there’s another person who will not live in reality. There’s nothing to do, but conflict in that situation. Can you talk about how the family court sees that and how to navigate that unfortunate neutrality bias? I’ll call it that, their bias toward neutrality rather than recognizing abuse.

Family Court System Bias

Tina: Right, we’re up against a situation in the court system where judges are not educated on domestic violence. In fact, I’ve been compiling some numbers. Many states have zero requirements for judges training in domestic violence. The ones with training requirements. It is minimal. My 15 year old daughter is more educated on domestic violence than most judges.

Just like my judge actually said to me, you chose this person to marry. You chose this person to have children with, it’s not my job to fix this situation. That was a huge gut punch. But, in hindsight, I’m actually big on radical acceptance and managing my expectations. So, as hard as that was for me to hear, I was glad he was open with his train of thought. Because then it allowed me to adjust. The direction I was going, and not look towards the court to be my savior or protector.

And most judges would never actually verbalize that, but I can guarantee you they’re all thinking that. You’re in a system that blames the victim. It’s important to know that going into the system so that you can adjust your expectations. The easy stamp or label for family court professionals to put on these cases is high conflict. And then the burden is on us to show that we are not part of the problem.

And that’s very much an ultra marathon to do that. But it’s critical that all of the decisions that we make go towards Showing that we are the healthy part of the equation, and it can take time. In my case, it was probably year six before the court really recognized that he was the problem.

Presenting Your Custody Case When In Court With A narcissist

Tina: And for me, that was keeping my communication. It was my goal to paint a picture and present it as the healthiest co parent they had ever seen. That was my authentic truth. If I had a healthy co-parent, I would be a lottery win for somebody in the co-parenting department. And so it was important for me to operate from my place of authentic truth. That came across during our custody battle.

In my written communication with him, in my presentation in the court, or with child custody evaluators. I remember going through my second custody evaluation and saying to the evaluator, I understand this appears to be a high conflict divorce. And I am somebody who can self-reflect to a fault. I am open to your feedback or expertise. If you see areas where I could be doing something different, I am a sponge. I will absorb that.

I will put it into play, because I’m truly at a loss. for how to continue navigating the situation where I’m fighting a naarcissist for custody. So those types of descriptors show that I am not part of the conflict. One of the missing components in the court system is data and research on this topic. Santa Clara University came out with a paper, and it has to do with high conflict individuals in the court system and the toll they can take on the system.

But also on these cases, and that is fantastic to start seeing that type of dialogue happening and research. Because other than that, you know, even when somebody goes through the court system, and maybe they’re so desperate to get a psychological evaluation that shows they’re dealing with a narcissist or someone in the antisocial personality disorder category.

Psychological Evaluations & Lack Of Education On Abuse

Tina: I see the desperation, and most of the time, they can’t get that. psychologist will not actually come out and diagnose them. They’re going to say the person has high traits. That’s not a diagnosis, and it does you no good. And then there’s a lack of education in the court system on what that actually means. So, if you are one of the rare ones that gets a solid diagnosis, now you’ve got a stack of papers that cost probably $20,000 and they still do you no good in the court system.

Because of that lack of research on this issue. Psychologists, a lot of them, understand narcissistic personality disorder as DSM. But there’s no deeper research that shows how these people affect children or co- parenting situations or the legal arena. And that’s what’s desperately needed to make changes and to educate the court system on what we’re all dealing with.

Anne: For someone who had a bad experience with in court fighting for custody, or who’s in the middle of a court proceeding, who is just worried or scared or thinks, is this going to work or am I going to be worse off than I was before?

Do you have any words of wisdom for them?

Tina: Keep your tank full. It’s so easy to get beaten down by the system. I’ve had so many dark days to where I really questioned if I could keep doing this. The reality is, You never know what’s around the next corner. I have seen the most dire circumstances do a complete 180.

Settling Outside of Court

Tina: I have seen things that you would never believe unfold. Some of this, is when somebody is feeling so beaten down and failed by the system. And then you just never know what’s around that next corner. Our kids need us to keep our oxygen mask on. And 10 years ago, if you would have asked me, refilling my tank meant a day spa for a full day.

Now you could set my alarm 10 minutes before my kids get up to have some alone time and quiet and collect my thoughts and gratitude. It sounds so cliche, but during the darkest days of my custody battle, that gratitude journal. was what kept me going, and sometimes all I could find grateful for was that the sun was shining or for my next breath.

If I had advice for people in general, in these situations, any time you can settle outside of court, it’s in your best interest. And sometimes that’s knowing what’s important to the other party, using it as leverage, getting in and out of the court system as quickly as you can. Because In the majority of these cases, especially when there’s no fight left, they don’t have to keep the mask on anymore because there’s no one watching from the court system.

And the excitement of fighting you is done, and that’s where the kids start to catch on that this is not normal. He is not healthy.

Custody Evaluations

Tina: And the kids start to take a stand. A lot of times when we see that happening, The kids are a threat to him. For image reasons, if he’s got a 13 year old that’s sulking and isn’t posing for the cute Instagram photos anymore because they’ve called him out, they know who he is, they become a threat to their image.

And so that’s where you’ll see them discard the oldest child or start returning the kids early or cutting their parenting time short. Usually, once the fight is done, this isn’t really what they want to do. If you’re appointed a family court professional to investigate. I would want to know every single thing I could about that family court professional to know what their biases are. For example, if a custody evaluator or a GAL was appointed.

Anne: When you say GAL, just for my listeners, that means guardian ad litem. So that’s someone who’s representing the children in tthe custody case.

Tina: Right, and some people in some states, it’s called minor’s Counsel, but yeah, it’s an attorney representing the child, and sometimes it’s not even an attorney, but that’s where it’s so important to know your system and to know everything you can about the judge, the Minor’s Council, GAL, the evaluator, because my strategy with one You know, custody evaluator would be completely different than it would be with the next custody evaluator.

Knowing Your Court Professionals

Tina: And there’s an example I use, there’s a courthouse in California. I’m not going to say which town it is, but, um, there’s two family court judges. If I were in courtroom, a presenting my case, I would present it one way. If I was in courtroom B, I would present an entirely different way, just based on what I know about the case and each judge.

One of those judges lost her son to a drug overdose, and so she takes addiction issues very seriously. In my case, my ex -husband was a raging alcoholic, so I would highlight and emphasize the addiction component and how it was affecting my kids in courtroom A, but I know in courtroom B, That judge doesn’t care about alcohol.

He’s probably a drunk himself. And so, you know, my presentation, depending on who the GAL is or who the evaluator or judge is, night and day different. And people don’t really put enough weight into that. You need to know who these people are, what biases they potentially bring. Maybe they’re very father focused and believe that dads should have 50-50, maybe they are more trained in the tender years where, you know, they know that a primary parent is important.

So it’s really difficult to say there is no one size fits all approach. It really comes down to who the professional is. The narcissist craves power. If you’re up for a custody evaluation or minor’s counsel, your job is to choose three. That you would be perfectly okay with and then submit that to the other side and give them the power and control that they crave to be able to make the final decision.

Choosing Court Professionals

Tina: I would ask your attorney about potential minor’s counsel that you could be appointed, and everything they know about each person. So you’ll make your own list of potential biases, the good, the bad, the ugly for each person. And then anywhere you can look online, do the research on everyone in your area, write out surrounding cities, and start educating yourself on who it could potentially be.

If you’ve done the background work on who the professional is, and you know, you get GAL A. When you are fighting for custody, then it’s a no go, and that’s where you settle. I say strategy is so important in these situations, but this is such an emotional topic for us. It’s easy for me to sit here and say, you know, strategy, strategy. If my ex sent me an email right now.

It would completely trigger me and spin me, but overall strategy is important. That’s where keeping ourselves centered, getting to a higher vantage point so we can look at it through the lens of strategy and not emotion, and keeping our strategy fluid, because you never know when there’s going to be a turn in the road and you have to readjust. And go, okay, well, that wasn’t the direction I was planning to go, but I already had the other route mapped out.

And so now here are a few new options that present themselves. Remember, the court doesn’t know either of you. You know what a monster you are up against when fighting a narcissist for custody, and it’s an area where I reflect back. I was so focused on the light bulb moment I had recently had. I have just been given a term.

Proving Your Case

Tina: I know he’s a monster, and I’m so eager to share that with everyone. And looking back, it took me six years into my marriage to recognize what a problem this was. He doesn’t know either of us. And for all the judge knows, I could be a pathological liar. So keeping in mind, it’s not what you know, it’s what you can prove. And starting to scrub down what matters to the court in getting the best custody arrangement, an attorney told me early in my battle that even liars and jerks are allowed to be parents.

So that has to factor into your radical acceptance equation, and knowing what’s important, but keeping in mind they don’t know either of you. And so presentation is critical until they get to the point where they start recognizing the problems in the other person.

Anne: It’s heartbreaking and frustrating, and I’m actually enraged. By the fact that abuse victims who have suffered so much, who are doing the right thing in fighting for custody. The burden of proof is on them. When I went through it, I was infuriated. That I had all the information and couldn’t get the help I needed. It’s so triggering to talk about strategy. But also so important.

BTR Living Free Workshop

Anne: That’s why I put all the strategies I used in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Because I thought everyone needs to know these, no matter what stage you’re in. The sooner women learn these strategies for fighting a narcissist, the safer they will be throughout the whole process. No matter where you are in the process, no matter if you’re still married and you’re just considering what am I going to do.

Even if divorce isn’t even an option for you. These strategies will work no matter what situation you’re in. The workshop is amazing. It has a workbook and short videos. After each video, if you want to process the information deeply, there’s a question, and you can spend some time filling out that question. If you’re exhausted and want to run through the video super fast.

You can just type in there and push enter. And that will take you to the next video. Same thing with the workbook. You can take a lot of time to fill it out and process everything. Or you can just fill it out a tiny bit and move on. Or not fill it out at all, but make sure that you do have the workbook in front of you so that you know, what it entails. Some women watch all the videos first and then they’re like, that was really good.

And then they go through it a second time, so they can be like, okay, I’m going to learn these strategies on a deep level.

Tina’s Advocacy Work

Anne: Tina you are amazing. Your work is amazing. You continue to do great work across the country. You helped pass Om’s Law passed here in my state. Kayden’s law passed in other states. Your advocacy is imperative to victim safety. And I appreciate you so much.

Thank you so much for sharing your story today.

Tina: Thank you so much.

If men knew how deeply their actions affected victims, would they continue to lie and manipulate? Infidelity leaves lasting, painful trauma that can affect a victim’s life for years after the betrayal.

If you need support check out The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session Schedule.

Transcript: How Does Infidelity Harm Victims?

Hillevi was born in Valparaiso, Indiana. In 1993 she married her now-husband. Together with their five children, they lived a dream marriage until Hillevi discovered his secret life of infidelity in 2013, shortly after they moved to the mountains of Colorado.

Supporting Victims of Infidelity

Hillevi has listened to this podcast from the beginning. She has been a devoted supporter of Betrayal Trauma Recovery, not just emotionally, but also financially, by supporting the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. I want to thank her for her continued support to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, because this podcast is due in part to Hillevi and women like her who support this podcast.

Hillevi: Thank you so much because you too have done a lot to support the rest of us women who have experienced infidelity, I listen avidly to your podcast.

What I Felt Was Like A Sisterhood

Anne: You said that you were listening from the very beginning where I was sort of a mess crying in the microphone. Fumbling around trying to figure this out. You have seen in real-time me come into my full understanding and power that I’m in now. Which is so different than I was four years ago. Just for our audience, you witnessing that real-time, what did you observe?

Hillevi: I felt like I was walking through everything I went through from the onset of my discovery of my husband’s betrayal, and what I felt was like a sisterhood. You were expressing things, feeling things in real-time. I had just passed through some of those emotions and was still struggling to find my way through this and maintain my marriage.

It was very much just kind of a give and take of: I hear you, I understand, I’ve been there, I’m going through that again. It’s not just a single straight path of a timeline. It was definitely great to have you along for the ride or me along for your ride.

The Codependency Model Blames Victims

Anne: And vice versa because we’re all in this together in this journey of healing from infidelity. It’s really cool to be part of that collective community. When someone has an epiphany and they let me know about it then I can podcast about it and that helps other women have epiphanies.

We’re all working together to come out of the fog. Also, I feel like all of us are genuinely praying for truth and for peace.

The Lord is guiding all of us sort of collectively together to find these things out. I think it’s interesting that so many of us started with a codependency model, and spoiler you’re not codependent! Then we’ve all sort of independently or together found this abuse model. It really is the only thing that makes sense.

Hillevi: Oh, absolutely. I remember in the 80s I was dating a drummer. He was one of those off again on again, I love you now but now I need other women and then come back to me. A girlfriend gave me the book Women Who Love Too Much, and many people who listen know that book.

I didn’t know if that rang true or not, it just seemed like it put too much of the blame on me. Rather than, you know I need to just walk away and just stand up and stop accepting abuse. That’s kind of where I started in understanding the, just the codependency model was so, so wrong. It was blaming the victim.

Infidelity & Victim Blaming

Anne: So, let’s talk about that victim blaming that happened to you. It was around you in the 80s and 90s. Your bio mentions that you went to some workshops on “How to be a Godly Woman”, and about “The Total Woman Workshops”. I’m not aware of these. Were these really popular back then?

Hillevi: Oh, it was so popular. Maribel Morgan author of The Total Woman, appeared on everybody’s television from Donahue to whatever. Christian women needed to learn to totally submit. And also subject yourself to your husband’s whims and desires, and dress like he wants you to. That little scene in Fried Green Tomatoes, if you remember, when Kathy Bates wraps herself in saran wrap. That was from The Total Woman. I kid you not.

That kind of feeling that if you were a truly godly woman. You would take that one verse out of Ephesians 5, you know, and just put that as the idol in your home. You must submit. I just was too rebellious in nature to submit.

Indfidelity & The Concept Of “Submitting” Oneself

My father hated that; my father was alive at the time. I was very very fortunate to grow up with a dad who said you can become anything, anyone you want. There is no limit, there’s no glass ceiling, and so my dad really hated what he saw me becoming.

He asked me to please go back and read the whole Bible. I was very very fortunate to have dad, he really helped open my eyes up to that. Both my parents were World War II veterans, but they both went to college afterward. My mother was a journalist, and my dad was a businessman in the lumber business.

They were both educated, and he really guided me, my father did. My mom died when I was very young. My father and my grandfather also were very good guidance as to what love and a good husband are, I just didn’t find it…yet.

Anne: So, what did you try while you were in this sort of total Woman crazy trendy church teachings phase where you were kind of submitting yourself to these misogynistic ideas?

Misogynistic Ideas

Hillevi: Well, the first thing was when I got married. I toured as a Christian artist at the time, and he immediately wanted me to give up singing in public. He wanted me to stay at home, have babies, take care of the house, and to serve him. I was not to be elevated in public with the music.

We started a church for instance, and I would be singing praise songs in church, but my voice does carry. And if somebody would turn around and say oh, I love your voice, we wouldn’t go back to that church. He told me to step back. And let him be the sole source of devotion from everybody around him. So that was the first thing.

Dressing the way he wanted me to dress, cook the food he wanted me to cook, that kind of thing. If started talking about something and he wasn’t interested, said not interested. I had to just accept that.

It was a pretty hard time in my life. I rebelled and stood up to him. Then of course the people around us who were very much into The Total Woman said that I was truly a rebel, and I was not honoring God. They must shun me. So, they shunned me.

Anne: Spiritual abuse. Wow.

Hillevi: Yes, it was. It was.

Anne: Did you recognize it as that at the time?

https://youtu.be/bTmtR4EfYcY Recognizing Abuse

Hillevi: Eventually I did. Not at the beginning. I thought it was just all connected, but it didn’t take me long. My grandfather didn’t like him, my father didn’t like him. As I said, they were really trying to help me find my own, but I was young and ignorant.

I was 18 when I got married. My life became very quickly filled with my children. I eventually just learned to walk away, to stand up. My friends from that era, we just kind of laugh about the stupid things we did at that time, thinking they were right. And that’s not to say that there isn’t a given take in a good marriage, but this was abuse. This was, you will do as I say. That is total abuse.

Anne: That’s really interesting, especially coming up in a different time period.

Hillevi: I just want to tell you that I’m not an old 65. My arm is in a sling right now because I had rotator cuff surgery last week. From a bad zip lining experience, so I’m one of the young 65 people.

Anne: Of course. Well, I feel like I’m a super old 43-year-old. I feel the opposite. I feel like I just want to eat pudding and lay on the couch. You know, how can I not walk up and down the stairs, you know, that kind of thing.

Hillevi: I just did my 10,000 steps yesterday. I’m back on my feet, getting ready to get this off I hope soon. I love life in the mountains and that keeps you young too. I have grandkids, and we do stuff together, and I want to be a young grandparent.

Anne: Yeah

Hillevi: I love it.

Generational Contexts of Infidelity

Anne: The reason I bring up that age difference is that we all have these cultural and perhaps religious scripting that is working against us. That we don’t realize, that is a part of our generation. It’s a part of our time. And right now, for the kids, you know the 20-year-olds, it’s like pornography is normal. Infidelity is fine. You’re totally sex-negative if you’re not into it, and if you’re not sexting. So that’s the generation they’re growing up in.

The one that I grew up in was that you are there to help a man and stay at home. I guess what I mean is you know when I was going to college, I never thought about what career do I want. It was what do I need to graduate in so that I can have a job where I can make sure that I can be a mom.

It wasn’t like what do I really want to do? I really want to be an astronaut, you know, or I really want to do this. Which I didn’t want to be an astronaut, but I certainly at that time was not thinking I want to be a podcaster, that’s for sure.

It Was His Secret Life

Hillevi: I know, am blessed that I returned to college. It is wonderful because while I loved the theater, I also became very fascinated with technology and media history. That began to open my eyes to a whole another realm of what we were doing.

The history of media and what it was doing to form our culture. Not in a good way, you know, in a very, very bad way. So, when everything came out with my husband, who by the way, helped put me through school. It thrilled him. He’d already been through college, so he knew I wanted to do it.

When everything came out about his infidelity, I guess I was prepared in many ways in that I saw what the music industry. The theater industry, the film industry, all of what it was doing and creating in our society. I just thought he was above that. I truly thought he wouldn’t have that kind of attitude, that he did, but it was his secret life.

Anne: And you discovered that in 2013?

Discovering Her Husband’s Infidelity

Hillevi: Yes. Yeah. When we moved here, he works out of our home, and I was really excited to work for Apple for a while. So I’m kind of an Apple guru. He got an Apple computer and I became his techie. Never in a million years thought he was going into exploitative material.

He was involved with that before we were married when he was in the band. I had no idea because he knew how I hated it. So, it absolutely shocked me when I was doing some cleanup work on his computer. To all of a sudden pull out the preferences and find out that he had passwords for these sites. Discovering his infidelity was a real wake-up call.

Aftermath Of Discovering Infidelity

At this point, you find out about his use. You begin, would we say decades of terrible counseling, or maybe just one decade of terrible counseling? You talk about the horror stories of trying to navigate through the “addiction” the addiction”recovery world without the context of abuse. Why that was so damaging to you and also to your husband.

Hillevi: When you find these things out, that your husband is looking at these sites and visiting prostitutes. You take a lot of turns. Infidelity is so heartbreaking. The first one you do is try desperately to find help. I was very fortunate, initially in that I went to my church, and my counseling pastor there said, oh, well, this is horrible.

We want to pay for you to get the kind of counseling you need. The woman he sent me to, we had sung together in the worship team, so I knew her, and I knew she wasn’t a crazy. I knew when I walked into her office and started crying like crazy, she was a comfort, she was a delight, she was helpful.

She helped direct me in great ways, but they paid for about six weeks of counseling right at the beginning. Through those six weeks, my husband hadn’t yet confessed everything. He had that lovely attribute of wanting to do the drip, drip, drip, we all know what that is.

“Drip” Confessions Of Infidelity

Anne: For listeners who might not know what that is, although I think everyone does, it’s where they just tell a part of the truth in a drip fashion. So, you’re just getting a little bit of the truth every once in a while.

Hillevi: Absolutely. When his infidelity came out, a lot of things happened in succession. He ended up in a one-week hold psychological evaluation because he said he was going to kill himself. They sent him there. And of course, he wasn’t really, he was just trying to get out of everything. He didn’t tell the truth the whole time he was there, but they did recommend a counselor.

The counselor asked to speak with me. He told me my husband was a lying SOB who was still hiding a bunch of stuff. This is a Christian counselor, so it was a lot for him to say that. So, on my way home from that, I said hey, we’re going to get a polygraph test, and he started backpedaling.

They don’t work, they’re not allowed in court. The usual excuses. And that’s when I knew that he hadn’t told me everything, but he wanted to leave that particular counselor.

Anne: Because that counselor was on to him, right, so he wanted a new one?

Hillevi: Oh yeah.

Victim Blaming Through Counseling

Hillevi: We went to another counselor for a very short period of time who immediately wanted to delve into his history, his family, and all of that blah blah blah blah blah. But he’s the kid that grew up with great parents. His mom warned me that Darry was a very selfish person, and she was very disappointed in his selfishness as an adult, but she was so glad that he married me.

Okay, so that counselor, I walked away from. Eventually, it landed us at Heart to Heart Counseling Center in Colorado Springs. For those of you who don’t know, that’s where Dr. Doug Weiss is in Colorado Springs, and we went to one of the counselors there who, how shall I say this, he started the same things all over again.

Well, it must be something connected to his past, his parents, and all that, and it wasn’t. He had said to me point blank, it’s because he’s selfish. It was because he had prostitutes and exploitative material on the road when he was a traveling musician before he became a Christian. One day he just decided, I’m going to go in Sex World in Minnesota, that was a strip club type of thing, and got back into it.

He eventually had to come to grips with the fact that now I knew there were a series of prostitutes and everything. And so, he started going to a 12-step at Dr. Weiss’s facility, and things were coming up that I didn’t like, things that didn’t seem, how shall I say this, humbling. It was well, we need to go back to physical intimacy right away. Right after infidelity.

Anne: This was coming from a therapist there? This kind of thing happens when women are wondering should they stay married after infidelity.

When 12-Step Harms Victims

Hillevi: Yes. Yeah. He had found that they were balancing the need to get right back into having it again. I went to one 12-step group myself where they told me that I should not control his recovery. I am not entitled to the pain of being rejected.

Anne: What? Whoa, whoa, whoa. You are not entitled to feel the pain of infidelity? This is why I created my betrayal trauma support group.

Hillevi: Yeah.

Anne: Wow.

Hillevi: That’s an actual quote, and I needed to stop expressing my anger to my spouse. That we needed to make a sex chart, it was kind of a calendar, where we would decide who was going to lead sex every night of the week.

He Had To Take Responsibility For His Infidelity

Hillevi: It wasn’t so subtle. Extreme victim blaming. Then we started comparing notes on some things that were said. I tried to look at it in the light of what God says a relationship is. He started to listen. He still hadn’t confessed everything yet.

When he would be dismissive of something I would just stop him, and I say why are you dismissing my feelings? You were saying what you did doesn’t have an effect on me? He started to see how much he hurt me. My health deteriorated, and he had to take responsibility for me having a hysterectomy. For me passing out and hitting my head and suddenly having to get surgery with little holes drilled in my head. I had a subdural hematoma from the shock that he was dumping on me every time he’d make a confession.

So, these are big things that he had to find out, and he realized the counseling that he was getting wasn’t working at all. We eventually did find a counselor who anytime I would say something he would look at Darry and say, are you listening, are you listening, you’re the cause of this.

This Is All You

This is not her. This is all you, and he woke up a little. But until he really got to that point where he could hear what he was doing without making an excuse. When he could own the things that he had done without saying the word but I.

That’s when he started humbling himself truly, I will be honest there, but it’s not saying he immediately changed. It took years to get down the road. He said to me, I want to spend the rest of my life making this up to you. I want to do everything I can to show you that I love you and I’m willing to sacrifice for you, and that meant not making excuses, that meant learning how to tell the truth. He truly wanted to make his infidelity up to me.

One thing I’ve heard you say, and guests on the podcast say, it seems like telling the truth is the last thing to heal. Right after, you know, The Ten Commandments. The seventh is you shall not commit adultery, the eighth is thou shalt not steal, and the ninth is don’t lie, and they all work in there.

He was stealing from me in the sense that he was taking our marriage and his infidelity had made it into something it wasn’t. It was not an open marriage. You can’t be married with three or four people in a marriage. I think that’s the most important thing when we as women turn around and look and we want to stay in the marriage.

Honesty & Transparency Are Essential In Marriage

We can only stay in the marriage if the husband is willing to lay down his life before God and acknowledge everything that he has done to you, to your children. To those around who looked at him, respected him. It had to be open, and that meant, everybody knew what was going on.

Anne: The stories that you’re telling, about bad therapy, where they’re basically enabling the abuser and further harming the victim. Is that what you’re seeing?

Hillevi: Oh yeah. He did that with a couple of them along the way, but the only thing that really matters is that true transparency. This is why I couldn’t understand, I mean there were a bunch of other therapists we try one or two times, but they would not want me in the room to validate, you know, what he was saying. And how can you listen to just one side in this. When they’ve openly said yes, I’m a liar, admitted infidelity. I’m seeing women on the side, but that therapist believes everything he says?

Anne: Right.

Hillevi: Over anything else?

Anne: Absolutely not. We have found that even in the DV, which is domestic violence, a lot of people believe that the victim lies and that the perpetrator is telling the truth. Like well, this is the first time he’s done this, you know, that kind of thing. You’re like no, this has been happening for years. It’s just the first time she found out about it.

C.S. Lewis’s Work

Anne: I’m so happy to talk about C.S. Lewis. My son just read all The Chronicles of Narnia. How C.S. Lewis Helped Hillevi

Hillevi: I’ve loved C.S. Lewis since I was a little girl, and read The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. Someone gave it to me because my mother had just died of leukemia, and I was nine years old. I spent a lot of that first year after her death inside my closet, just hoping that I could get out into Narnia. C.S. Lewis’s work became so important to me.

In high school, I read The Screwtape Letters. Which for those of you who aren’t familiar with The Screwtape Letters. It’s a series of letters that really list very thoroughly, all the methods of temptation that the devil tries to lead us into and different techniques to rag our souls, our spirits away from the one true God.

Understanding The Different Types of Love

So, he talks about the way media has drugged men into looking at the ideal woman and he goes through the different time periods of how she dresses, how she looks, how she carries herself, but perceive the woman always as an object, and it was so eye-opening to me.

I really, really encouraged people to read C.S. Lewis’s Four Loves. When he talks about love, in the book he talks about storge, which is the affection, the appreciation of a person. It’s kind of the love from parent to child, it’s a humble love. Philia love, where we get the City Philadelphia, it’s the brotherly love, it is the friendship love.

“So Many Of Them Are Incapable Of Affection”

Anne: Before you move on, it strikes me that with addicts are incapable of even just the affection part, that basic type of love that you talked about. Like, step one, that so many of them are just even incapable of affection.

Hillevi: You’re right. You notice his first quote that I gave talks about you can selfishly wrap yourself up, and not even feel, but you’ll never experience love. And addicts don’t experience love. What they think they’re experiencing is eros, which we all know we all hear the words eros, oh yeah, that’s physical love.

That physical desire, but it isn’t. It’s an intimacy, a romantic love. A physical desire without eros wants it, it wants just sex, as the verb, but what eros really is, is eros, desires one being, the beloved. That’s what eros is.

What Is “Agape”?

It’s so misinterpreted. It isn’t just hey, I’ve got a great feeling, you know, scratch my itch and move on. That’s what we say today, that’s what we’re told love is, and it isn’t. You’ve heard the word of agape, right? That’s the Greek word, but that is the final of the four loves.

That is the divine selfless love, the giving love, and we think of that as Christ and his giving himself for us. That’s what we look at, but it is also the love that is described in Ephesians 5. When a husband must love his wife, that agape, and lay his life down for her, that’s what true love is.

It’s not something that comes naturally. It is something that is learned because you begin with storge, I mean to the affection, the philia, the friendship, and the agape is something we hope happens throughout life, that we lay down our lives for one another. That’s why when we see love on television or in a movie or read in a book, and the emphasis seems to be just on the physcial relationship, it is the most misguided use of the word love.

Using Art To Process Infidelity

Anne: I love talking with women who have been in trauma who have used art and literature, and you know theater in your case, in my case I garden a lot, or different modes of processing to help us move through the trauma. It also helps give us these epiphanies or these new things to learn and gives us a way to have that post-traumatic growth.

To grow through the experience. We can come out the other side better people and more knowledgeable and have more depth to us as a result of the infidelity.

Hillevi: The arts reveal ourselves. I mean, there are people who I think are misguided that say, “Well, we should show everything as an art, the good, the bad, the very bad, the obscene. I remember doing Oliver once, and I sat down with my students and we talked about the character Nancy and Oliver, and how she was a very sad and abused character, Bill Psyches beats her.

Anne: Isn’t she the one that sings As Long as He Needs Me? Everyone should listen to that and realize we’ve all been Nancy.

It’s Really Important That Every Woman Can Tell Her Story

Hillevi: Yeah. I played Nancy, yes, with a drummer, that first drummer I talked about. Yeah, he was in the pit orchestra, and I was playing Nancy. I talked with the kids about the abuse because we were going to have to act it out. We’re working with high school kids or middle school kids, and they have to act out this abuse that happens to her.

I always like to have a percentage of our profits of our shows go to some cause, some organization, and my kids 100% on their own said we want our profits to go to a battered women’s shelter, and my heart just sang because they understood. They understood that this was not right.

The actress that played Nancy in my school production was phenomenal. She has gone on to fight civil rights causes now. I absolutely am so proud of her for that. You know, we use art to teach. I mean what we do right here in our conversation, is the art of conversation, and it’s the art of storytelling. And it’s really important that every woman can tell her story.

Anne: And that’s what this podcast is for. That any woman with a story of abuse, of betrayal, who wants to come and share is welcome here. And that is what makes this podcast so amazing, I think, is that the stories are all very different. The details are different, but the patterns are the same and so as we hear story after story after story, we can start seeing these very clear patterns of abuse and what it looks like and that helps us make better decisions in our own lives.

BTR Helps Women Find Community

Hillevi: The women whose husbands are not going to be open and vulnerable and generous, generous with everything. If he wants to hold back money from you and not take care of you, that love that we just spoke about, that giving love, that’s not there.

So, you go through these years of abuse, these years of psychological fog we’ll call it, and then you go through years of bad therapy, and then you have a good therapist, which is awesome, and then you find Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Can you talk about how you found BTR?

Hillevi: Oh yes, sister. We were still in our yucky stage at that time. I was looking for anyone who truly understood what the abuse was, the pain I was feeling. Your tears transcended into my heart because I cried with you while I was driving. I was identifying with you.

To find you though, I was looking up every single podcast I could find that had to do with marriage, betrayal, and infidelity and there were a lot of them and there were a lot of bad podcasts. I had a 45-minute drive through the mountains and the beautiful Rocky Mountain forests to work, to teach, and 45 minutes coming home. And so, I would download my podcasts every single day and I went through so many really bad teachings.

Philia Love Means Understanding & Compassion

Anne: From other podcasts?

Hillevi: Yes, one guy that kept telling women how important it was that their body was. You know, their body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and is to be glorified by their husband. Oh well, you know, all the bad things that are out there, but there was nobody being vulnerable, and you were vulnerable.

I came upon you, and I remember just hearing you cry and crying along with you, and the vulnerability of the walks that you had. The one in particular that tore my heart out, was your trip to Disneyland.

Anne: Was it Legoland?

Hillevi: Maybe it was Legoland, but you’d had a big fight in the car outside.

Anne: Yeah. So, it was Legoland. This was after the fact. He wrote this letter telling me he was so sorry about the day he was irritable at Legoland, on July 3, 2015. Like this specific day, right, and that was all he was saying sorry for and sent me $300. Is that the one?

Hillevi: Yeah, yeah. That’s the one. Oh, I just wish I could have called you. Here’s another $300. What an absolute jerk. I’m sorry, you know I hate to keep jumping back to C.S. Lewis, but that philia love. What, you too? I thought I was the only one, right. I felt a friendship right there.

Victims Of Infidelity Deserve Love

You were being vulnerable and allowing yourself to share things that were happening in your life, and trying to find some sort of peace, trying to figure out where your life was going.

I was in that same space. Where am I going, what am I doing, how am I going to make it through tomorrow when I’ve got to go home tonight? I think the key was hearing the words, betrayal trauma, I had’t heard infidelity described that way. Then the word recovery because that’s what I was seeking. Betrayal trauma recovery. It became listening to you over and over every day.

Anne: Well, I’m so honored and so grateful. That I was the one that stuck with you because I felt like I’m just podcasting into the abyss. I didn’t know if anyone was listening, or if I even made sense, and you know, even now.

I have this sense that I have interviewed so many people and read so many books and, you know if I could get a Ph.D. in abuse. Essentially, you know, I have all this education now that I didn’t have before through this podcast. It has given me the motivation and the means to do that and interview all these incredible people.

I still don’t know what I don’t know. You know, I’m still on this journey. That for me is still a vulnerable place to be. I’m still podcasting, in real-time. I’m still saying, “Help me.”

Recovery From Infidelity Is A Process

Recently, some things have come to my attention that were huge that I didn’t know before about legal things and custody things There’s so much to process and to understand and to visualize and to, you know, put into infographics that we post on all the social media and stuff like that.

You can only really understand it when you’re living with it every day. It’s not the kind of thing that you can just go to a couple of classes and then say, oh, I know all about this trauma thing. I know everything that a victim will probably experience.

Because it takes years to gather up all this information and all the experience and face all the problems and having to problem solve this. Again, that’s why I’m so grateful that it’s a community because I hear what’s going on, and then I’m like, oh, you know, women are having trouble about boundaries, how can we teach this in a way that helps make sense of it.

That’s why I made The Living Free Workshop. I just don’t think that you can anticipate all of the problems a victim is going to face unless you’re actually a victim, actually going through it.

Hillevi: Absolutely, and each day is another step. If you listen to your beginning podcast where you started out and listen to where you are now, there are all sorts of steps we go through. The thing that disappoints me the most, not about your podcast, is that it seems like so few men really get it.

Your Own Husband Has Turned Into Someone Who is Harming You

Anne: I want to say here that for every man who does not understand this, for every man who chooses to defend himself rather than repent, rather than change his behavior. You have a woman and children being abused. This isn’t just a scenario where, oh, it’s too bad for him because he doesn’t get it.

This is a scenario where women, even if they’re divorced, are continually exposed to someone who is emotionally and psychologically dangerous for them, who harms them. It’s way more serious than just, oh, he doesn’t get it, or she wants me to change and I’m not changing, because the results are suffering.

Serious suffering throughout the world, at the hands of someone who should be really genuinely caring and protecting you. Your own husband who has turned into someone who is harming you frequently.

Infidelity Seriously Harms Victims

Anne: What I would like men to understand is that your refusal to repent is continuing to harm your wife and children or your ex-wife and your children.

Hillevi: Adultery is mentioned 52 times in the Bible, not including the 10 Commandments. The only sins that are spoken of more than adultery are pride, self-righteousness, murder, and placing other gods in front of the one true God. That’s it.

Adultery is right there on those top four. And interestingly enough, putting the God of self or idolatry is what leads to infidelity. And self-righteousness or pride also leads to infidelity. For some reason, there are writers out there in the recovery for men area that seem to think that the problems will be solved, that I still need it, it is a need, and they’ve just made an idol out of it, and they don’t get it.

And their selfish righteousness, I’m going to be sexually successful. I think you and I both know who I’m talking about with that. It’s about humbling yourself, because everything else that you do is sheer torture to your wife, to your family, and to those who love you enough to tell you the truth.

Anne: Their actions are torturing their wife and children or their ex-wife and their children. And another word that I like in this sense is, women are being haunted by the decisions of the men in their lives. They cannot escape the negative consequences of that abuse on a long-term basis.

How Does Infidelity Affect Victims?

They’re trying to, they’re doing the best they can, but the consequences for women in this situation are pretty dire. We do our best to combat it and to live, you know, a peaceful life on our own . This is why God made these commandments in the first place. The consequences of infidelity are really, really bad to the victims.

I don’t think that the abusers feel the consequences that much. If they did, they’d probably stop. Because the consequences to them aren’t really that big of a deal. You know, why is she so freaked out about it. What’s her deal?

Hillevi: You hit the nail on the head. The initial conversation, I remember I was having with Darry at the very beginning, it was just physical. I just wanted different sex, it’s no big deal. Now, this is coming from a guy who’s been in church and on a worship team and knows all those commandments. He knows what the Word of God has to say about purity.

It was like it was nothing, and infidelity had no consequences on my heart. The idea of two becoming one, that intimate weaving of our flesh, of our spirits, of our minds. It was like, that was all out the window. At some point, his heart was so hardened, that he could look me in the eyes and say, but it was just physical. WOW!

Support the BTR Podcast

Anne: Hillevi, it has been amazing to spend this time with you. Like you said, just talking to my friend. We’ve been friends from afar but definitely kindred spirits, which is why I use the name Anne Blythe. So, thank you so much for coming on these episodes.

Hillevi: Thank you so much for asking me to be here and be a part of this wonderful ministry that you have.

Anne: If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. Until next week, stay safe out there.

Children of divorce often wonder, “Can you emancipate yourself from one parent?” Tiffany will share the story of how she emancipated from both parents. Hopefully, her story can help any minor hoping to emancipate themselves from an abusive parent.

If you have children in danger from their father after a divorce, or you’re concerned about it, we’d love to support you. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.

1. What Does It Mean to Emancipate Yourself?

At BTR, we advocate for safety above all else. To discover if you’re emotionally unsafe, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

Women can learn emotional and psychological safety strategies by enrolling in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop.

2. When It Feels Too Difficult To Emancipate Yourself From Abuse

You’re not alone. Many women experience debilitating trauma when considering emancipating themselves from abuse.

Why? Because abusers condition victims to feel powerless, worthless, and trapped.

3. Finding The Strength To Emancipate Yourself

It may feel overwhelming, frightening, and devastating. But you can find the strength to emancipate yourself from abuse.

Many women weigh their options, putting others’ needs before their own safety. Some of these include:

• Wanting to spare their children the trauma of divorce and its aftermath
• How do you help the child of a narcissist?
• Wanting to avoid financial hardship
• Wanting to “keep the peace” by “letting it go”
• Fear of the abuser’s retribution against self or children

Abuse teaches women that they are not worthy of safety, kindness, or respect. Women will hold tight to everyone else’s “needs” because abuse has conditioned them to do so.

4. Will It Hurt My Children IF I Emancipate Myself From Abuse?

Mothers worry that separating themselves from abusive behaviors may harm their children. This is understandable, divorce, separation, and other safety boundaries may feel disruptive and traumatic for children.

However, no matter what the circumstances, if their mother is being abused, the children are also being abused – even if the abuser never lays a hand on them. Simply existing in a space where abuse is present is detrimental and harmful to children.

At BTR.ORG, we know that safety looks different for everyone. Some women opt for a no-contact divorce, while others choose to stay married. No matter how you emancipate yourself from abuse, Betrayal Trauma Recovery is here to support you, validate you, and empower you.

The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions meet multiple times a day in every time zone. Join today and find a loving community of women who understand what you are going through as you begin your journey to safety and healing.

Transcript: Can You Emancipate Yourself From One Parent?

Anne: I received a five star review the other day. She said, lifesaver for me and my child. I don’t know what I would do without this podcast. I look to it for guidance, support, and understanding. BTR seems to really know what is going on and doesn’t take BS from anyone. After living with my ex’s pornography, abuse, and sex addiction for eight years, I finally found a safe place that can empathize and explain all of the madness I’ve been living. There is no podcast quite like it. Keep doing what you are doing, BTR, and thank you.

I have Tiffany on today’s episode. She is familiar with overcoming hardships after enduring physical, mental, and sexual abuse. Tiffany emancipated from her parents at the age of 15. At the time, she was only the second case in Utah for a child of that age to become legally emancipated from her parents.

She worked three jobs to support herself through high school, became a Sterling scholar, and graduated top of her class. As a torchbearer for the 2002 Olympics, Tiffany has always determined to shine a light in dark places. Welcome Tiffany.

Tiffany: Thank you so much for having me. It’s a pleasure.

Anne: So Tiffany’s going to share a little bit about her childhood abuse and how to emancipate yourself, which is an amazing story.

And then we’re going to focus the rest of the episode on the abuses she experienced from her boyfriend, and how she didn’t realize what was going on. Then finally, she also emancipated herself from that situation. So Tiffany, let’s start with your childhood abuse. Did you understand as a child that you were a victim of abuse?

Tiffany’s Childhood Abuse

Tiffany: I think the moment I realized, was when my dad broke my arm. So an answer to that question, from my earliest memory until he broke my arm when I was six, I didn’t realize it. But then once that happened, I was like, okay, yeah, this isn’t normal. He threw me across the room, and I hit a solid wood door.

I didn’t know the word abused, obviously, at six, but I knew that what was happening couldn’t be right. My dad would never take his anger out on my mom when he was mad at my mom. He put her up on a big pedestal, so instead when he would get mad. He would pick me up off the floor from my coloring books and throw me across the room in anger in some sort of fight with my mom.

Also, he took my mom and I to my grandmother’s house for the day, because he worked a weird shift of 3 p.m. to midnight. So, when he would go to work, my mom and I would go to my grandmother’s house, my mom’s mom’s house. And we were driving a 1964 Ford, which my dad still drives. And the seatbelts in that car, the reason I tell you that is the seatbelts in the car are very difficult to push the button down to undo the seatbelt.

Physical Abuse from Father

Tiffany: And my dad started yelling at me. I couldn’t get the seatbelt button to go down. My dad broke my arm. And I’m saying, I can’t do it, and I’m crying, and he’s getting pissed off at me. Finally, he releases the seat belt. Basically yanks me out of the car, throws me to my mom, and my mom and I go inside my grandmother’s house.

And my grandmother’s like, you know, I’m bawling, my arm looks crazy, my mom’s trying to say, oh, it’s nothing, it must be a sprain. And my grandmother’s like, no, this isn’t a sprain, we need to take her to the hospital right now. So they ended up taking me, and I remember the whole time it was my grandmother by my side, not my mother.

I don’t remember where my mother was. When they gave me the anesthetic shot to do what they needed to do to. They set my arm and put the cast on or whatever it is they did. My grandmother’s there trying to calm me down, wiping my tears, wiping my head, and telling me I’m gonna be okay.

And my dad picks us up that day at midnight. Hey dad’s here, we got to go home, and I come out with this cast on my arm. My grandfather played the organ, and I distinctively remember my dad sitting on this organ bench and saw this cast on my arm. He looked down at the ground and didn’t say anything about it.

Emancipate yourself from Manipulation & Lies

Tiffany: But the next morning my parents told me to tell everybody that I fell out of a tree. And that’s what happened to the arm. So I would walk around with this cast on and my arm behind my back. Because I didn’t want to lie to people. And I’m thinking, why are my parents asking me to say something different than what happened?

And so that was kind of my first aha moment of, okay, well. They’re asking me to lie about something that’s not true. And threatened me if I didn’t say I fell out of the apricot tree in the backyard. So it led me to believe there was something more going on that wasn’t good. So the actual word abuse? No, I don’t think I knew it was abuse as far as the word. I knew that it wasn’t right, but I was too scared to say anything.

Actually, my dad did not abuse my mom, that I know of. And I think she would probably say the same thing. The reason I say that is my mom was his princess. He put her on this pedestal, as I’ve mentioned. He gave her money to buy clothes, do her hair, and never made her work. When they got into a fight, most of what I saw was he would yell. Which was rare. Then he would come back with flowers and apologize, and he just really doted on her. It felt like I was the punching bag for when he was upset with her.

Mother’s Emotional Abuse

Tiffany: But I know my mother was emotionally abusive to me. My mom was a promiscuous woman. That’s actually how my parents got pregnant with me. She cheated on my dad a lot with people in the congregation of the church we were in.

I’d see them in bed with my mom during the week. She would say, if you say anything, I will break your face. That was her one common threat, I’ll break your face. And I didn’t know what break your face meant. But I knew I didn’t want to get hit in the face. That was already happening from Dad.

Mom would give me candies, for example. My dad loved caramels. He had this tin can of caramels he’d keep in the kitchen. And my mom would open one up, or open the tin up and say, Here, do you want one? And, you know, I’m a kid. Yeah, I want a freaking piece of candy. If you offer it to me, I’m gonna take it.

So, I’d take it and eat it. It was delicious. You know, again, my dad worked that 3 to midnight shift, and I’d be sleeping in my bed, which is in the kitchen, by the way. My bedroom was in the kitchen, growing up. The front door was at the foot of my bed. So, my dad would walk in, wake me up a little, and I’d pretend to be asleep.

And my mom would say, Tiffany stole candy today. Or, Tiffany did this, and then my dad would yank me out of bed and beat me for taking candy I wasn’t supposed to take. Yet my mom gave it to me and asked if I wanted it. So she was very manipulative in that way.

Molestation & Emancipation

Anne: You’re the second woman in Utah to legally emancipate yourself from your parents. Talk about how that went down.

Tiffany: When it started, it wasn’t meant to be an emancipate yourself thing. One of the men my mother was cheating with, my mom ended up going with him. He ended up molesting me when I was young. And molested my sister later on in life as she came along. Beause my mother did nothing to stop it with me. He was a military police officer and said, if you say anything to anybody, I’ll kill you.

Well, he’s six feet two or three, I don’t remember exactly, but he was tall and intimidating and had a temper. He was physically abusive to my mother. And so when he said, you say anything, I’ll kill you, I believed him, I kept my mouth shut. My mother, who turned to drugs once she left my father. It started with speed, and then it turned to marijuana, and then it turned to cocaine. It escalated, and now she’s still a drug addict on much heavier drugs.

I thought my mom wouldn’t protect me if I said anything anyway. And she came to me one day when I was getting ready for school and said, what’s going on? And so I told her, because I thought she would protect me if she asked about it. She basically confronted him, and we had this family discussion. He turned to her and said she’s lying. I didn’t touch her.

I didn’t molest her. Everything she’s saying is a lie. He told her she had to choose between me or him. She didn’t even hesitate two seconds.

Emancipate yourself from Living with ABUSIVE Biological Father

Tiffany: She turned to me and said, you have until tomorrow to get the bleep out of my house. At that point, I was 13, in the 8th grade. And she had a yard sale, sold my belongings in front of me, and I had basically a garbage bag full of clothes, and I had a Tootsie Roll piggy bank with some change, so I walked past her and her yard sale of my belongings.

It is still so crazy to me that she did that, but took my coins from my piggy bank and got on the UTA bus, which is our local bus system here in Utah. And lived with my biological father in Layton, the guy physically abusive to me. I just thought, I’m either homeless or living with Dad. I don’t have a lot of options. And so I took the risk and lived with Dad. Once Mom was gone and they divorced, he never touched me again.

I became a latchkey kid. Meaning I woke up and dad was gone for work, and I came home from school. Dad was still gone for work because he worked two jobs. Being 13, going through sexual abuse from my stepfather, and then not being believed and getting kicked out, basically felt like I was worth nothing. If the woman who brought me life and brought me to the planet doesn’t want me, what’s the point? And I became anorexic and suicidal, and had a lot of things I was having a hard time dealing with.

Struggles with Mental Health

Tiffany: And there was a morning I woke up and I said, today’s gonna be the day I end my life. I just don’t wanna be here anymore. I just don’t see the point.

The angel on my shoulder said, yeah, but if you kill yourself, you’re letting all this defeat you, and you’re letting them all win. You need to emancipate yourself. It wasn’t those exact words, but something along those lines. And I realized it was time to either get help or just be done with it.

And I knew that this didn’t need to define me. It was a weird, strange moment. It was very, very surreal. I reached out to a social worker and had to go through two years of therapy, to the point that I could just even look in the mirror and not be disgusted at myself and feel like an unworthy person.

At the time, I was 15. And I said, what’s next? And I knew it wasn’t good to go back with Dad. Obviously, I couldn’t go with Mom. So he mentioned foster care. And foster care was not anything I wanted to do. When Mom left Dad, we bounced around a lot, because she’d go from man to man and then return to the other man. She just couldn’t keep steady romantic relationships.

And so I went to 23 different elementary schools in a very short period. And I knew when you’re in foster care, you get bounced around a lot. Not always, but generally that’s what happens. And plus, I didn’t want to live with a strange family. I had separation issues. I had attachment issues, you know, many things, as you can see from what I went through.

Emancipation & relief

Tiffany: I said, there’s got to be something else. I don’t want to be a foster kid. And he said, well, you can emancipate yourself. I didn’t even know what that meant. He explained it to me, and he said, but I need to let you know, the odds are stacked against you.

There’s only one other case in Utah at your age that was able to at the time. And I thought, well, what’s the worst that can happen? They’re going to tell me no. And then I have to go into foster care. So, I went for it, and I was awarded, essentially, custody of myself, and became the second case in the state of Utah.

Anne: That felt scary and sad and great all at the same time kind of a thing?

Tiffany: Yeah, for sure relief, for one. My mom, she’s very vindictive, and I didn’t want her to say I was a runaway. I’d have to go into juvenile detention. So I felt relief, because I felt Mom didn’t have those chains or that hold or that control. I felt so much relief. I didn’t have to be around her, see her, which is sad. She’s my mother. She’s the reason I’m on the planet. But she’s not my mom, and I see a big difference in those two words.

So, I got emancipated right around the same time I got to run the torch in the Olympics. And that’s when I was dating Danny. I ran the torch in 2002. I met him in 2001.

Emancipate yourself: Meeting Danny

Tiffany: I’m a huge Dave Matthews fan, and so is he. A friend of mine from the singles congregation had said, Hey, Dave Matthews is coming into town. Did you see that? I’m like, Oh yeah, I saw and I want some tickets, but you know, looks like it’s going to be sold out. And he’s like, well, I can get you a ticket. And I’ve got a couple of buddies of mine coming in from out of town.

He was from Louisville, and I wanted to go. And I said, heck yeah. So I paid for the ticket, and he and his two friends came and picked me up. And one of the guys was Danny in the back seat. And I remember at that concert, he sang one of my favorite songs. Like, he was standing next to me, and it almost seemed like he was singing it in my ear. It was like this little romantic moment. You know, my favorite band, he was cute. We both loved Dave and just stayed in touch.

We had a long distance relationship, writing letters, talking on the phone. He was the first man I ever fell in love with, the man I lost my virginity to. So, like, there was a lot of attachment there. And as a surprise, he ended up, packing up his little Honda Civic and driving across the country and knocked on my door. I was renting a basement room with some other girls. And was like, surprise! I was like, you’re here, this is so awesome!

And he’s like, no, I’m moving here. I’m like, what? It was so awesome.

Anne: No hint that you would eventually emancipate yourself.

Danny Moves to Utah

Tiffany: You know, so excited for it. We ended up moving in together and renting a basement apartment. And his friend rented the other room. It was a two bedroom apartment. We shared one room, and then he had the other. It wasn’t until he moved here to Utah, that romanticism, oh, I can’t wait to eat breakfast in the same room as you. I can’t wait to go do, all the things you want to do when you’re in a long distance relationship. Once he was here, it was like the monster came out. I started to see who he really was.

Anne: Did you ever consider that talking on the phone and all that before he moved here was grooming? You wouldn’t until hindsight, obviously.

Tiffany: Right. He treated me like gold, he honestly did. He wrote me poems and sent me flowers. So I was like, this guy is perfect. He flew here to take me to homecoming at university. But he was here for moments, he was here for three days, five days, you know, short spurts. So it’s easy to have like, oh, every little moment’s amazing with you. There were no issues about you need to emancipate yourself before he moved here.

We didn’t fight over the phone. He didn’t say mean things over the phone. It wasn’t until he got me one on one in person that it started. I very distinctly remember, it started the day I ran the torch. We’d just gotten home.

First Signs of Abuse from Danny

Tiffany: And we were in the basement and started arguing about something. And he came over to me and shoved me, and the torch fell out of my hand. And I was so worried that that glass on the torch would break. Because somebody had paid for me to keep the torch. It was like, wow, this is so cool. He shoved me, and that torch fell out of my hand, and I was like, whoa.

Then I started crying, and he came over and put his hand over my mouth and said, you stop your crying. And it was like, it wasn’t okay for me to shed tears. And it was such a big day in my life. It was like, he was trying to take away my moment, if you will.

Anne: We see that a lot. On a holiday, or on a birthday, they might not shove. Like, shoving is pretty overt abuse, obviously. But, they might do something to throw you off emotionally, ruin your day. When I was on your podcast, you talked about the fact that he was using pornography, but you didn’t see that as an abuse issue or that you needed to emancipate yourself.

Tiffany: Yeah, so, he was a photographer. It was a hobby. But turned into where he was pursuing it professionally. The Victoria’s Secret model, Gisele Bundchen, and some other Victoria’s Secret models. He always looked at pictures of them, or he had books, like coffee table books of them in scantily clad clothes, bikinis and things. I thought, well, he’s a photographer. He admires beautiful photos.

Emancipate yourself FROM OTHER Women’s photos

Tiffany: There was a Sante D’Orazio book he had of women that just had underwear on, or they’re naked, and you see everything. I didn’t think much of it, but hindsight, as you say, now I’m like, okay, he was doing this stuff right in front of me all along. It escalated to a point where we had the computer in the bedroom, because we had those tight quarters in that basement apartment. And sharing with his friend living on the other side of the basement.

He would look up these photos online, and he started looking at them right before we’d go to bed. And then he’d want to get into bed and do something. Sexually is what I mean by doing something. And like, you’re not going to get your rocks off by visually stimulating yourself looking at these naked women. Of these supermodels or just women you think are gorgeous and then come get into bed with me. I would say things like that.

And he’d make me feel like I was a complete idiot, that I was making stuff up. He tried to make me feel like I was being crazy, and I did. I questioned it a few times. Am I crazy? Is this just me being ultra paranoid or something? Do you need to emancipate yourself? That’s something that happened regularly. Now that I’m thinking of it. I was one of his subjects. He would love to take pictures of me, just out and about every day.

I was very skinny and slender at the time, and I was modeling on the side here and there, but then of course, behind closed doors, he’d want me to take photos like he was looking at online.

Recognizing Abuse

Anne: Did you recognize it was abuse while you were in it and even getting out and emancipate yourself? Or did you have to be out of it for a while to recognize, whoa, that was abusive?

Tiffany: So when we were in it, I started to get more vocal about it and say, this doesn’t make me feel right. You know, this shouldn’t be happening. Why do you have to do that before you get into bed with me? And then we’d get into these big blow up fights. Like I say, he’d make me feel crazy. We were together four or five years. I would ask about marriage.

Do you think we’re ever going to get married? Not, hey, when are you going to propose to me? Like, hey, do you think we’re ever going to get married? Because nobody wants to waste their time, obviously, and we’re this far in. And any time I would mention that M word, marriage, he would freak out. It would cause a huge disturbance in our relationship, and we would fight, and it became something that I walked on eggshells and never dared to ask it again.

I had this little epiphany where I’m like, if he doesn’t know by now that I’m somebody he could marry and I can’t even talk about it. Then I’m wasting my time.

Ending the Relationship

Tiffany: So I started sleeping on the couch. The last six months of our relationship, I slept on the couch. I would say to him, you know, if you keep treating me like this, I’m going to leave. I don’t think he believed me. And I went apartment looking on the side and found an apartment and signed a lease. I didn’t know how in the world I was going to make it work financially, but did it anyway. And I moved out one day while he was at work. And never let him know where I went. You can emancipate yourself.

He called me and was like, Where the heck are you? And what are you doing? And I mentioned the marriage thing. If you don’t know you’re going to marry me, and we can’t even talk about it, what’s the point? And he’s like, Well, just come back, and I’ll propose to you on a mountain in Paris, or blah, blah, you know, just somewhere in Europe. And I’m like, it’s too late. So then he tried to use his manipulation of giving me the things he knew I always wanted, and withheld from me.

There were so many times going back even to when I was six, I knew something wasn’t right. I didn’t know it was specifically the word abuse. I knew something wasn’t right when my stepfather did the things he did. When Danny would come to bed and do the things he did and the way I felt, I knew it wasn’t right. Listening to my gut was huge, and it’s something I should have done sooner.

emancipate yourself AND Listen to Your Gut

Tiffany: You feel a certain way. You’re feeling that way for a reason. I know that’s vague, but listen to your intuition. If something in your brain says, this just doesn’t seem right, or doesn’t make me feel right. Then it’s probably not right. But in addition, I think the biggest thing is that many times I didn’t say something in fear of another abuse happening. Whether it was beating, emotional or mental. See something, say something.

If you don’t say something, nothing can be done. We know this about the reporting of abuse, the prosecuting of abuse. Specifically with mental and emotional abuse. There are no scars to prove anything. It’s just kind of word against word. Reach out to somebody you trust.

For me, I trusted nobody other than a bound book with the word journal written on the front of it. So, my journal, if that’s what you gotta do, write something in a journal, get it out. And then see how that felt, and then be able to move forward to talking to an actual person about it. But I know the hardest step is the start, that stops you when trying to emancipate yourself.

It’s that first step of, I’m afraid to say something, because who knows what he’s going to do. If you can take that first step, and you realize, okay, I’m strong, I did that, how’d that feel? And then you take the next and then the next, then you’ve got a momentum going to build yourself back up to healing

Anne: Yeah, taking tiny steps. We actually have a free after infidelity course. Where, if you have no idea what to do, you can find that.

Building a Life of Safety & Peace

Tiffany: Yeah, I love that. Because you feel so powerless when all this happens and don’t feel like you can emancipate yourself. Standing in your power and saying, I can’t do this anymore. Here I am at 38 years old. The last abuse I experienced was 18 years ago. And I’m not here to discourage the listeners, but I’m still a work in progress. I’m still doing things daily to remind myself that I am worthy, beautiful, strong, you know, all the things that you don’t believe when you’re mentally beaten down and emotionally beaten down.

Anne: I’m proud of you for all the amazing things you’ve accomplished in the face of abuse. Can you talk about goals you’ve set for yourself? The fact that you don’t have children with your abuser is a blessing, but can you talk about how you’ve built a life of safety and peace now?

Tiffany: The biggest thing is my support. Meaning the people I allow around me. I’ve learned to value myself in a way that I am careful who I let in. I’m just at a point in my life, and it doesn’t matter if I was 21 or 72. Everybody should have this in their life, they deserve it. That I just don’t need to be around people who don’t believe in me and are there to pick me apart.

I even have cousins and aunts and uncles that might not be a huge believer in me because of the emancipation I did against my parents. That’s hard, but really, to get me to where I am today, I can literally go through anything now and overcome it.

Meditation & Positive Affirmations

Tiffany: And the way I do that is, I believe in meditation. I used to think it was a very woo woo thing. Probably five years ago. If I had this conversation with you, the word meditation wouldn’t have even come out of my mouth. I’ve really embraced it. in the last five years, whether that be meditation for you might be praying, sitting in a quiet room listening to your thoughts or trying not to listen to your thoughts. Meditation to you might be staring at a landscape and listening to birds, you know, meditation can be different for everyone.

But I bring that up, because it’s important to be comfortable with yourself. And to listen to the thoughts that might come into your head, but not necessarily give them a ton of credit when you are trying to emancipate yourself. Because sometimes our mind tries to confuse us, or our mind tries to remind us of, oh, but remember, you were not worth it back then.

You’ve got to remind yourself, yes, I am. Because I’ve grown, and I’ve made the steps, and I’m doing the things I need to do. So meditation is huge, and then for me also positive affirmations. If you step into my house, you can’t go into one room of my house, including the bathroom, that there’s no positive affirmation.

Whether it’s me writing a post it note on the mirror, or something on the wall hanging up. You know, I have a daily affirmation calendar that I change every day, and it’s a new affirmation. I think kind of rewiring your thoughts and beliefs about yourself through positive affirmations really helps.

Emancipate yourself WITH Goals for SHARE Initiative

Tiffany: People used to make fun of it. You know that Saturday Night Live skit where the guy would talk to himself in the mirror and be like gosh dang it, I’m special and everybody loves me. But it’s true. That stuff works, negative self talk is not gonna get you anywhere. The positive self talk, and then visualizing it and seeing it in front of your face, as well, gets you so far. It’s helped me tremendously. Now, as far as goals, obviously I’m still running SHARE.

As a matter of fact, we’re doing a Thanksgiving dinner for a family in Bountiful next week, which has been through tremendous domestic violence. And so, my goal is to have SHARE be a global initiative in the long term to emancipate yourself. Not just something happening here in Utah, because that’s my reach as of now. I want it to be a national initiative recognized everywhere in every state, and then a global initiative, because abuse is an epidemic.

Statistics aren’t getting any better, specifically during COVID. You know, when people were trapped in their homes with their perpetrators.

Anne: Many women who listen to this podcast are in a relationship with an emotional and psychological abuser. They fear getting out of the relationship, because they feel like I need to stay in the relationship, because it’s better for the children if I do that. Being a Victim of childhood abuse from your parents, what would you say to that for women victims. Who are feeling like, getting out is too hard, I need to stay in, and plus it’s better for the kids?

Long-Term Effects on Children

Tiffany: So, getting out, and emancipate yourself, if a woman says getting out is too hard, she’s talking about, you know, I would say herself, not selfishly, but it’s hard for her because she’s gonna have to be a single mother. She’s gonna have to do this on her own. Maybe she’ll feel she has no support. Whatever the case may be. But you’ve gotta look at it this way.

By staying, you’re affecting all these kids’ lives in a negative way. Because they’re now exposed to it in some capacity. Whether you’re not being able to give your 100 percent as a mother. Because you’re dealing with this abuse in the home, or they’re seeing the abuse take place in the home, not necessarily physical, they can see it emotionally.

I just had a podcast this morning where a lady was talking about emotional abuse and how much it affected her seeing her mother and her father do that to each other. So I would say long term I know that’s hard to do in the moment and feeling that you can’t do it. Whether it be financially or support wise or safety wise or whatever the case may be.

But if you don’t do something now, it’s going to have a trickle effect even greater on your children than if you were to leave. And I don’t say that to, like, make them feel guilty or bad. But that’s the truth of the matter from somebody who’s been there. If my mother had, when I said, hey, this is what Robert’s doing to me. If she had taken my side. She would have said, you know, okay, this is absolutely crazy, I’m protecting you as my daughter. And Robert, you need to leave.

Challenges of Shared Custody

Tiffany: Then Tristina, my little sister, who’s nine years younger than me, would not have had to deal with the abuse she went through, if that makes any sense. So, if she had stopped it with me, it was only one statistic, instead of my sister, and we suspect even my brother, because my stepfather was molested by his father.

So try to remember that it’s going to be so much easier on the other side. To look back and say I can’t believe I went through that, than to still be in it. I get that, but think of those kids.

Anne: Absolutely, I think there’s one thing that we need to acknowledge here. And that is divorce doesn’t solve abuse. So If you get divorced and are out of it, but your ex is still engaging in abusive behaviors and you share custody. Then there’s still going to be abuse happening.

So even though you’re protecting your kids more than if your abuser lived in your home. If you’re required by law, which most everybody is, to send your children with your abusive ex. Maybe you have 50 50 custody, maybe you have sole custody, whatever it is, he will still have access to those children. So divorce is not the complete answer.

It doesn’t solve abuse, but it is a way to start stepping out of it and emancipate yourself in some cases, in most cases. So I want to caution everyone from thinking, okay, the solution is divorce. Because even when you divorce, or even if you divorce. If you share children, that abuse is still ongoing, both to you and your children.

emancipate yourself BY Building Confidence & Strength

Anne: And that’s what makes the situation so difficult for victims. With the court systems, the way they are, and with the situations they are with custody, you can’t just completely walk away from the abuse and emancipate yourself.

Tiffany: Yeah, I didn’t think of that. I mean, I don’t have children of my own. I’ll have to say that. So take what I’m saying with that grain of salt. Other than I have raised my siblings, I ended up taking them out of foster care and raising them, but it’s not the same. I didn’t even think of that aspect. It is such a tricky place to be in. It comes down to having confidence in yourself and having that strength. But then where does it come from when you’re getting beaten down every day?

Anne: I do think victims are stronger the more they can escape the abuse, and divorce facilitates that. So even if their abuser is still engaging in abusive behaviors, if they have separated themselves as much as possible from the harm, they’re going to get stronger. They’re going to live a more healthy, emotional life, physical life. They’re going to feel better.

Even if the abuse is still sort of this. thing that’s hanging over them and their children, possibly for the rest of their lives. At least you’re providing some type of barrier, which you wouldn’t have otherwise.

Encouragement to Take the First Step

Tiffany: I just want to say probably the phrase I’ve already used here, it is the start that stops you. So I challenge everyone who listens to take that first step to emancipate yourself. Whatever that first step looks like for you. Whether it’s again journaling, taking the time to sit in peace with yourself and meditate, or reaching out to somebody you feel is safe.

Continue to listen to this podcast. It’s a tremendous resource for you ladies that have gone through this, and just keep tuning in and hearing these stories that will help you and what Anne has to offer, and that’s awesome.

Anne: Thank you so much, Tiffany, for coming on today’s episode.

Tiffany: Thank you.

Are you wondering, “Is my husband holding me back?” Understanding the signs that your husband may be sabotaging your personal progress is crucial in taking steps toward a healthier, happier life.

Sarah, used the The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop to determine exactly what was going on and how to overcome the ways her husband was undermining her. In this episode, Sarah talks about overcoming the ways her husband held through using meditation.

Using Meditation To Overcome What’s Holding You Back

Anne: Sarah recently enrolled in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop and she’s been doing one meditation per week. What meditation are you on now?

Sarah: I just finished the I AM LOVED Meditation.

Writing Can Help Make Us Make Progress

Anne: I wrote these meditations because at a certain point, talking was not helping me as much as meditation or yoga because I talk all the time. I never am not talking about it. If I hit a healing roadblock talking, it wasn’t actually getting the trauma out of my body or helping me that much.

I started doing meditations on YouTube and several different other places. They were never specific to this situation, they weren’t gender specific. They weren’t exactly what I wanted, and so I wrote them. How everything has gone with BTR, it’s been, why not create the thing that doesn’t exist that I need.

Sarah: And is actually so helpful. That and your emotional abuse quiz! It’s the only quiz that actually helped me understand what was happening!

The Benefits Of The Meditation When YOur Husband Is Undermining You

Sarah: I’ve loved them. I have absolutely loved them, I love that you can do them multiple times. They only take about a half hour. I love that they are specific to me. I feel like I’ve done a lot more healing with the betrayal meditations than I have in years of therapy or groups because it’s more individualized.

It’s specific to me, and it’s what I think my pain is, and it allows me to get rid of that and be more open to the future and healing the wounds. I’ve really loved them.

I’m an introvert, very much. If I could go back in time, I would’ve just done BTR from the get go. I think I would’ve just sped up my recovery a lot faster and I would’ve gotten to safety a lot faster if I had done BTR.

Anne: Yeah, BTR Group Sessions or BTR Individual Sessions.

Totally. BTR Group Sessions are awesome. It’s safety oriented, it’s the right group to go to if you want group support. It’s also really good to hear other women share their experiences.

There are some women who love BTR Group Sessions and they want to do it in perpetuity, and I think that’s awesome. For me, there was a certain point where talking wasn’t going to help me anymore.

My Husband’s Betrayal Is Holding Me Back

Do you feel like you were kind of in that boat where when you’re thinking I still need to heal after betrayal and this seems like a better choice for me than therapy. Can you talk about how you thought about the difference between meditation and maybe another option?

Sarah: With group, I think it was good. I was just drowning, I had no idea what I was doing, so I needed tools to figure out how to survive, how to do life, and how to move forward.

Now that I’ve had some time, it’s been five years since my divorce and I have a lot more safety now, thanks to you. I mean, I still feel like I have a little bit of a wounded heart. It was a lot of pain and it’s a lot to go through and when you’re in the thick of it, my husbands betrayal was holding me back. For me personally, I was just ignoring the pain because I just have to survive.

Now that I’m safe, I can address the pain and everything like that, but it’s a lot to go through. Before I found BTR, I was doing other therapy and groups that weren’t as helpful.

Stopping My Ex-Husband From Holding Me Back

Once I found BTR, it streamlined my healing and it went a lot faster with the meditations. I saw it and I was like, oh, I got to do this, I got to try it. Once I did the first one and I was just bawling because I just felt so seen by my maker as a whole person. I just felt like I’m valuable.

Even after all this bad stuff has happened, I’m worth it. It’s been really healing. You can wade through the family dysfunction and generational dysfunction and identify for me personally, what I want to do for the future. I want to help my children and to help stop carrying on all of this weight and heaviness and pain.

Anne: You’ve listened to my podcast for years and you’re very familiar with my voice.

Sarah: Yes.

Anne: I’m just thinking I’ve never asked this question before. After listening to my podcast for so long and hearing my voice so much, was it a natural extension to have me also be doing the meditation or was that weird?

Sarah: No, I think it was great because I already felt like I knew you so well. You’re like an old friend. An old friend is just walking me through this path releasing me from my husband holding me back. It was great. I loved it, I found it more comforting rather than some stranger. I know your voice.

Anne: Can we talk a little bit about your story? It’s been five years since your divorce, before you knew that your husband was using exploitative material and having affairs and lying and stuff. What did you think was going on back then?

Betrayed: My Husband’s Addiction Was Holding Me Back From Peace

Sarah: Knew there was exploitative material. I just didn’t know the extent of it. He kept that hidden really, really well. I thought, he must be in it again and that’s his thing. I’m going to do my life and we’ll just carry on.

Then things progressively got worse and worse and worse. There were several instances where I knew something more was happening, so I actually prayed. I prayed, Heavenly Father, I know something is happening. I just don’t know for sure. Help me find out.

That’s when I found out lots of bad things. He had a whole other email account and was meeting up with other women. I found out 2016, I stayed with him for almost a year and a half because he said he wanted to change. Then he just couldn’t be honest. He was truly holding me back from having peace.

https://youtu.be/I9IwWhENrKU

During that time, he started programs and I started therapy. We even did a couple of marriage therapy things, which was pointless, so unhelpful. I just kept finding things. He was not willing to be honest. We separated in April and I spent the night at a good friend’s house and she helped me find BTR.

She held my hand through the whole thing. Honestly, BTR has been my lifeline again. It’s the fastest healing, fastest way to safety also dealing with him after divorce because we have children together. I did The Betrayal Trauma Workshop and was a night and day difference. It reduced my stress, reduced my anxiety.

Everything is much smoother now because I know how to communicate, but still stand my ground and still get what I need.

My Ex-Husband Is Still Holding Me Back After Divorce

Anne: The Betrayal Trauma RecoveryWorkshop makes it very clear that communication is a trap. All the things you’ve been told by the therapist or clergy or other people that you need to improve your communication in order to work things out is just not the case.

It seems ironic, you can throw all that therapy and all this stuff out the window. Communication’s not going to solve it. There are some communication strategies that will help you, but they’re still not solution based in terms of thinking that he’s going to be able to work with you.

Am I making sense? It’s like recognizing, communication isn’t going to help. Then if communication is not going to help, then what do? I do if I have to message back and I know communication isn’t the thing to do, then what?

You can’t just write back nonsense words! If you share kids, you have to communicate. It’s an interesting irony that I’m both saying. Communication isn’t going to solve anything, and also there are these specific communication strategies that will improve things simultaneously.

Sarah: I guess it’s learning what communication strategies actually work.

Anne: Because it’s strategic. You’ve learned to be more strategic?

Sarah: Yes. He has definitely played a game for years and years and years and was really good at it. I’m in that same game, so I have to learn the rules. If I want to make a move to go a certain direction, I have to play the game.

Strategic Communication Can Help You Move Forward

Anne: It’s kind of like render into Caesar, what a Caesar’s or don’t cast your pearls before swine or agree with an adversary quickly. Turn the other cheek kind of things, and that’s where I got those strategies from studying that.

What does this actually mean? Christ was saying that in relation to your enemy, so how does this actually deescalate the situation and help you be safe?

Sarah: Yes, yes. It’s strategic.

Anne: You can see what they’re doing and then you have specific tools to be able to be on his level. Because otherwise when we’re just straight up with them, they just weaponize everything against us.

Sarah: For me, I think the biggest thing that I learned from The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop is to identify what he’s actually doing. Previously I was getting a whirlwind of messages and I never know what’s happening. But now I know what it’s, and it’s easier for me to deal with it. Strategically.

Self-Discovery As A Path Forward

Anne: Knowing you a little bit, I know that you’re extremely logical. I’m going to describe you as stoic. Tell me if I’m wrong. I can imagine that if you’re in therapy or something and they say, how do you feel? You would be like, well, it’s difficult.

Sarah: Yes.

Anne: Yes. Not that you haven’t cried, I’m sure you’ve cried, but you have more of a practical approach to life and your emotions. Regarding The Betrayal Trauma Workshop, has that been a different way to access parts of yourself that you haven’t been able to access in a different way?

Sarah: Yes, I’m just right. That one for me was especially healing because you imagine your 6-year-old self and what she’s going through. The pure joy and pure love of a 6-year-old and accessing that 6-year-old and holding her, and that to me was really healing.

The very first one, I am resolute. That’s the one that was the most healing for me. I don’t even know if I have the words for it. I was bawling. It was just so healing to be heard and seen. I don’t know how else to describe it.

Anne: I think one of the reasons the first one sticks with people isn’t necessarily that it’s better than the other ones. It’s the first time that anyone does it. The meditations are set up so that the beginning goes through the same process every time for all 13 of them.

He Was Holding Me Back: Expressing The Emotional Impact Of Betrayal

Then there’s a visualization that is topic specific. I did that at the beginning of every single one. The words are a little bit different, processing something else. Even though you’re going through the same process, it’s getting to the heart of that topic or that characteristic that you want to feel.

You want to feel resolute or you want to feel protected. It’s a powerful experience of things actually leaving your body that you didn’t know were stuck inside of you.

Then when you do it again the second time, you get another layer of pain out. I don’t know if it’s ever as intense as the first time because it’s just so different from anything else you’ve experienced. What are your thoughts on that?

Sarah: I do like that they follow the same format because I know what to expect. The workbook was helpful to identify certain areas of my body that I was feeling certain things. Then refer back to the workbook after the meditation is almost finished.

Sometimes Repetition Helps Heal

That’s helpful to see, I might need to do this one again. Or, I’m feeling good on this one. At first, I didn’t know they all followed the same format, I was like, okay, Anne, what you doing now? That they all follow the format. There’s a purpose in it, and now I understand the purpose of it.

Anne: My thought was to get all the negative emotions out in the beginning. Get them all out and then fill you up with the positive thing that you wanted to become. Getting rid of the fear, getting rid of the trauma, getting rid of the insecurities, and also just the scripting from society. The places that says that you’re not good enough or that you’re not loved.

Then the second part, which is that topic specific visualization is about that thing. It’s about the truth that you’re going for or to feel protection or to feel like you are just right. I like the just right one. At first I was going to do I am enough, but my problem has never been feeling like I wasn’t enough.

My problem has been that I am too much. Instead of being like, you’re not good enough. It was always like, you are too much, calm down. There’s an element of you’re not good enough in that being too much.

Finding A Healing Structure That Works

That’s why I wanted to be just right in between being too much and not enough is just right. No matter what you’re like, you’re already just right. You are the person that you were supposed to be. It feels like that with your 6-year-old self because she’s so cute. She’s so messy and energetic and, adorable.

Anne: Yeah, I mean, she’s a little bit too much and she’s a little bit not enough at the same time, and it makes her just right. She’s just delightful. The voiceover was actually done by my daughter, which if you hear it, you’ll hear her. She was very excited to be a part of it.

Sarah: I like the format because I really do feel like you get rid of the pain. You get rid of the trauma, and then you build me up so much and I can go conquer the world.

Anne: You’ve been able to do some amazing things, things you never thought that you’d be able to do. You remodeled your kitchen, that is huge. You broke down a wall. You’ve done just some incredible things in terms of BTR empowering you to do things that you never thought you’d be able to do.

Meditation Can Help Me Move Forward When He’s Been Holding Me Back

Can you talk about how BTR and either the podcast or the meditation helped you accomplish some things that you never thought possible?

Sarah: Honestly, it comes down to being married for 13 years to an abusive man. It was always, oh, we got to do what’s best for the family and whatever. My desires or needs were always put underneath everyone else’s, mostly his. He was always holding me back.

Then I got divorced and listened to the podcast I realized I can do whatever I want. It doesn’t matter what that is. It’s whatever I want to do. That’s what I’m going to do. I think I always had the desire. I just didn’t know how to do the things I wanted to do.

Anne: Do you think also you had that scripting in your head that you couldn’t?

Sarah: For sure. I had wanted to remodel my kitchen for years and years when I was married. But we never had the money. Well, guess what, even after a divorce, I really didn’t have the money either, but I figured out how to get the money.

Achieving Personal Goals To Overcome What’s Been Holding Me Back

Whereas if I was still married to him, I guarantee it would’ve been shut down. No, we don’t have the money for this. It’s never going to happen. It was definitely a script, a cultural script, spiritual script, I have to listen to him and do what he wants.

BTR definitely helped me realize my desires and my wants, and then I just had to figure out how to do it. I have on my wall, my miracle board, I have pictures on there that I want to achieve.I have switched them out because I have actually done them.

I’ve gone to Hawaii, I’ve gone to Disneyland, I’ve redone my kitchen. I am currently redoing my yard. These are things that I wanted to do for so long and I just didn’t know how to do them. First, realizing that I can do them, I just have to figure out how to do it. I can do it if I want. I just have to figure it out. That was the biggest hurdle for me.

Anne: I want to let people know. You’re not like Miss Moneybags or anything. You’re a high school teacher.

Sarah: I do not have thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars rolling in every month. It does not happen.

Taking Initiative To Make Progress

Anne: One of the things that impressed me is your belief in yourself that you could do it because there were parts of that kitchen remodel that you did yourself.

Sarah: It was Father’s Day, and I didn’t have my kids, and I was like, I hate this wood paneling. I hate it, I just channeled Anne. I was like, what would Anne do? I’m like, change it. So I ripped it off. I ripped all the paneling off in one day downstairs in the basement, and then I had the studs showing and I’m like, oh, no, I’ve just created this huge mess.

What am I going to do? I called my brother-in-Law who has done drywall, and he came with his brother and they knocked it out in two days. Obviously I didn’t pay as much if I had some contractor come in and do it.

Okay, what else do I not like? I don’t like my kitchen. I’m going to redo that. I had to refinance some stuff to get the money to do that. I’m so glad I did because it was done. Then I had breast cancer, and I want to show my daughters that if you want something, you figure out a way to do it.

The Joy Of Achieving: How Confidence Aids Healing

Anne: I was telling somebody the other day, I get what I want in general. I mean, sometimes I don’t clearly, but it’s easy for me to obey the commandments or to do the right thing, so to speak. Because I want to do it. There’s this instance where the thing I really wanted to do was the wrong thing, and that hasn’t happened to me in a really long time.

I went over to this couple who mentored me in my neighborhood, and I was like, I know this is the wrong thing, but I still really want to do it. I hadn’t done just saying it out loud and getting their help, and they prayed with me. It was so helpful being able to be like, okay, I really don’t want to do that thing. That would not be good for me.

Just voicing it so that I could have God remove it from my heart was nice, but just in general, it’s nice to know that the things that we want are good. Why can’t we do it? Going to Disneyland is not a bad thing. It’s awesome. Why would someone not want to go or fix your yard or your kitchen? How does it feel to be in your house now?

Sarah: I love it. I didn’t love it before. It’s a great house. It’s a great neighborhood. I’ve definitely made it my own. Nothing’s exactly perfect, but it’s so much better. I’m a big baker. I love to bake and I can knock a lot of stuff out of my kitchen really easily.

Gaining Energy & Momentum To Heal

Do you want to know what I’ve made in the last 24 hours? I’ve made a lot, I’ve made sourdough bread. I’ve made an almond cake. I made lemon bars. I made lemon blueberry scones.

My neighbors love me because there’s no way I can eat all of that. I love my kitchen. I have a huge island now and I can work and I have a double oven. It’s what I need now. I don’t know if it’s necessarily, I need, but it’s so much easier than my previous kitchen.

My previous kitchen was from the 1960s and I’d clean it and it still looked dirty. What’s the point of cleaning if it’s still dirty now I clean it and you can see a difference, and so I keep a clean kitchen more because I can see the difference.

Anne: You feel like with these miracles or cleaning out the trauma from inside of you, I was able to accomplish my goal. I was able to get what I wanted. It feels really good, and it kind of compounds. Then you just believe in yourself more and more, and you just have more and more confidence.

Sarah: You definitely have more confidence because you’ve done it. You already know you’ve done it. I feel like it’s the Harry Potter moment when he conjured the patronus. Do you know what I’m talking about?

Conquering What’s Holding Me Back – The Power Of Healing In Achieving Goals

Sarah: I already did it, so I knew I could do it. I knew it was me, so I just did it. So that’s how I felt. I can do things. It’s also healing. The trauma and all of the pain gives me the energy to do it and the creative drive to do what I want to do. When you’re just in the drudges of everything. If you don’t heal after betrayal, if you don’t take the time to address it.

Sarah: Healing the trauma and all of the pain gives me the energy to do it and the creative drive to do what I want to do.

Anne: Well, and I think that’s the thing that so many women describe, especially before they know what’s going on, is they describe feeling stuck in a healthy relationship. I don’t really know because I’ve never been married to a healthy man, but I assume it’s that you have these goals and that you progress toward them and you’re able to accomplish them and it feels good.

Together in this partnership, you’re making progress throughout your life and you’ve got ups and downs, but together you’re on the same path. When you’re with a user, someone who’s emotionally and psychologically abusing you, you’re a victim of coercion. You feel stuck all the time.

Emotional Abusers Holding Victims Back

You can’t make the progress that you wanted to. I know that you bought that house with your ex and then you got it in the divorce. Even with that house, there was stuff that you wanted to do and you couldn’t figure out how to do it. It kind of just feels like they’re this big anchor that’s chained to us and we’re just getting dragged backward instead of being able to progress forward.

It’s not a partnership. It’s sort of a counter-ship where you’re making progress and they’re kind of holding me back.

Sarah : Yeah, because everything’s about them. It’s not about us, it’s not about our relationship and our goals. It’s his goals, his desires, his wants, so there is no progression really for me. He’s constantly holding me back.

Anne: They’re not going to care that much about whether or not the kitchen’s clean if they’re just looking at it all the time. If they’re never home to be in the kitchen. Have you noticed since starting the meditations that things have changed? Were surprised because the meditations are a relatively low amount of effort.

The Surprises Of Starting Meditations

You just listen and then go about your day. Have you noticed any changes that have surprised you? Like things in real life that you did differently that you were not expecting?

Sarah: My thought process is different. I’m more gentle with myself. The thing that’s coming up in my mind is the just right meditation with the 6-year-old. I’s okay if I made a mistake, that’s okay. I got to it, but guess what? That’s okay. I got to figure out how to fix it and then not do it again rather than beating myself up.

I should have done better. Changing my thought process of it’s okay, it’s all right. I can make mistakes. I’m going to do this differently next time so that I don’t make the same mistake. I don’t get as hard on myself as I used to. There’s still things that I want to change about my life as everyone does. It’s more of a gradual progression rather than a steep incline.

Anne: It’s also seems to be more gentle process when you hear someone say, don’t think bad thoughts about yourself, and then you’re like, okay, I’m not going to, and then you think something and then you’re like, I’m thinking that again. Oh, stop thinking that.

It’s not necessarily violent, but it’s like you’re confronting yourself this way. You just naturally change your thoughts in sort of a gentle way, and even if you had a thought like, oh, I’m so dumb.

What’s Really Holding Me Back? Changing Thought Processes

Then you think, oh, sweetie, you’re so cute. Instead of being like, oh, I wasn’t supposed to tell myself I was dumb. I’m so dumb for calling myself dumb.

Then you go through that process. The other thing that I tried to purposefully build into that specific meditation was just mistakes. She knocks something over and makes a mess. Mistakes that we make that we’re like, oh, I don’t want to do that again. I’m going to make a different choice.

Then there’s also just mistakes that you can’t avoid. There’s just stuff that happens that nothing that you did could have avoided it. I think there’s this feeling that I need to learn all of these things so that I can avoid doing this in the future. I hope the meditation helps people feel like there’s also stuff that is going to happen and it’s okay, and I couldn’t avoid it, and that’s fine too.

Sarah: I definitely agree. Sometimes life happens and you can’t really avoid it. You give the strength to to keep moving forward

Anne: And being gentle with yourself as you’re like, ah, that happens. Today I got a full glass of milk and for some reason I set it on the floor. I don’t know why I did this, and then I stood up because I was on the couch, which I could have just put it on the table next to the couch. That would’ve been a good idea, but no, I didn’t I stuck it on the floor and I stood up and of course knocked the whole thing over.

My Abusers Lack Of Grace for Mistakes Is Holding Me Back

I think the hard thing about that is there’s no grace for mistakes. With an abuser, you accidentally forget to deposit the check on time and a bill bounces or something. Instead of being like, oh, it’s okay, you intended to deposit it, how can I help?

I remember I did that once and I’m actually really good with finances and stuff. I’m very responsible, and that happened this one time and he was so angry. Then said things like, do I need to take over now? So now I have to do everything?

It was just a mistake. I forgot to deposit the check and I thought I had, this isn’t something that I do every day, the way they talk and stuff, there’s just no grace.

Sarah: My abuser wouldn’t give me a lot of grace, but it required a lot of grace on his part. He’d asked for a lot of grace. It’s ironic,

Anne: And we give it,

Sarah: Yeah, totally give you a lots of chances,

Anne: But not so much to ourselves. No.

Anne: What did you think before you used the workbook? Were you kind of like, wait a minute, I’m supposed to fill something out during a meditation? Did you think it was a little bit weird or were you like, cool, I’m all for it? Can you talk about your thought process with the workbook?

Expressing Trauma On Paper

Sarah: The workbook is really helpful because it gets things out of your head and onto paper and you have to see what is really there, what is the pain or what is the trauma saying? What are the words that need to come out, and sometimes they’re vile, they’re evil.

I’ve had an array of responses and it’s interesting for me to see it on paper like, oh, I really have harbored a lot of pain. Getting it out on paper gives it a voice and it’s easier to get rid of once you see it on paper. I am a big journal writer. Even when I first found out everything that he did, I was like, I got to get this out of my head.

Otherwise I’m going to go crazy. and so I wrote in my journal a lot. For me, it’s very helpful to have things on paper. It gets out of my head and I can see it. That’s holding me back. It’s a coping mechanism. I think the workbook is really helpful, seeing where it is in my body and what it’s saying, what it looks like.

Anne: Has it been hard for you to just go with whatever came in your mind?

Sarah: At first, it was. At first I was like, okay, this is weird

Anne: For people, if they’ve never done the meditation before, do you have any tips for how to just sort of let go

Sarah: Do it a couple of times, do the same meditation a couple of times. Don’t be judgmental. Just let it happen. Don’t overthink it. Just let it come out the pen or the pencil.

Visualizing Physical Representations Of Feelings To Let Go Of What’s Holding Me Back

Anne : I encourage people literally, whatever you think, put it in there. It could be the craziest thing, like a giant hourglass full of marbles that is sitting in your living room. Whatever you think of, just go with it. If it doesn’t work out, it’s okay. Just do it over again in a minute. There’s no wrong answers. What’s the weirdest thing that it looked like? Like a blob or a color.

Sarah: Green, slimy, sticky gooey blob, and I don’t know if that’s the weirdest, “That’s holding me back?”

Anne: Is that the most common thing for you or is that just one time?

Sarah: I have had some sharp shards of glass, but mostly it’s sticky, goopy, slimy

Anne: Stuff. Mine’s usually black goop like tar. One time I had this chunk of cement come out that was the exact replica of the shape and size of my body. I was floating in the air and it just fell out, hit the ground, and when it hit, it shattered into a bunch of pieces.

The light came and just cleaned it up. That was weird. It was like my entire body was full of cement, that’s holding me back. I think that’s super interesting.

Also, when I do the light part, I go into this mode where I picture sort of a subatomic physics sort of idea. Where all of my atoms separate from each other and there’s space in between all of my atoms, and then I kind of picture them shaking or vibrating. Then they open up a little bit and anything unhealthy just comes out of them and gets pulled in, and I always love that part.

Health Benefits Of Meditation & Emotional Release

I feel so much better afterwards. I just feel like it healed my body too. How do you feel about the meditations in relation to your health?

Sarah: I wish you had done this years ago. I feel lighter. I’ve read,The Body Keeps the Score, and you can’t separate areas of your life. You are a whole person and everything blends into every other part of your life. It makes sense.

If you’re in a relationship that’s abusive, it tears down your body physically. It just does. You can’t separate the stress from different areas. The trauma keeps holding me back. It just doesn’t work. Releasing the trauma and the pain and the memories has been helpful. I feel better physically than I did years ago.

Anne: When you get to, I am healing the healing meditation that has a whole section about physical healing, healing your physical ailments. I’m thinking, “What’s holding me back?” You’re in this sort of mausoleum kind of place and this lady comes and you lay down on this stone that can heal your body.

You’re a woman of faith, you’re a Christian. For any women who are kind of nervous. That makes me nervous. It’s going to let something that I am not sure into my life. Can you talk about that you’re a Christian and how you felt about meditation in light of your faith?

Meditation & Christian Faith: Aligning Spiritual Practices

Sarah: I visualize it as accessing the atonement. That’s how I see it. For me, the meditations help me access the atonement better. I believe Christ can heal all things. The meditation is a visual way to see that atonement, to see Christ healing me.

Anne: In terms of your faith, has everything been safe for you? Has everything felt safe? Has there been anything that felt uncomfortable that didn’t really mesh with your values?

Sarah: Well, the meditations have aligned with my values, my religion. People say it’s prayer and meditation. They kind of go together, so it’s just a different way of doing meditation. To me, it’s more effective to do meditation rather than prayer. Now, I’m not saying prayers are bad for this specific situation.

I think these meditations are very helpful. There’s a purpose behind them, whereas my prayers are my wants and desires or gratitude or whatever my prayers are. They’re helpful as well. I’m not saying one or the other. I don’t feel uncomfortable doing the meditations even though I’m a religious person, that wasn’t holding me back.

Ensuring Meditation Aligns With Personal Values

Anne : I am too. I was hoping that Christians would, if they wanted to, envision that light as Christ. So many women have had spiritual abuse be a part of their story, and many women have decided that religion isn’t for them. Because they’ve had so much spiritual abuse.

I support a woman getting to safety however she needs to get to safety. I wanted it to be very just open to interpretation. And make sure that all of the visualizations aligned with, I would say general Christian principles or the general principles of being a good person.

So that everyone would feel comfortable. Hopefully there isn’t any part of it that makes someone feel uncomfortable.

I can’t anticipate everyone’s experience and everyone’s situation, but for the most part, I tried to try to make sure that it was vague enough and general enough. Then also alternatively specific enough, in the I Am Brave meditation, it is interesting because you actually confront the abuser.

Do you remember that one? Yes. In a safe place, and that one might make people a little bit nervous, but he’s contained so that you’re safe. How did you feel about that one?

Sarah: Wow. The things I wanted to say to him and to actually hear. I think there’s always things that we want to say and to actually be heard. We could say it all we want, but that’s not going to affect him at all. In this way it did. I felt validated for my feelings and for the way that he treated me. It was freeing.

Is He Still Holding Me Back? Visualizing Confronting Emotional Abuse Safely

Anne: He doesn’t change his behavior due to that, but he’s sort of forced to listen to you. For women who maybe nervous about meditation and don’t know if it’s for them what would you tell them?

Sarah: Give it a chance. What’s holding me back? Maybe if this is your first time doing a meditation, do the first one just a couple of times. Be curious rather than shut it down right away. I have actually told the women that I know that I’ve been in abusive situations about the workshop and how helpful it has been for me.

I tell lots of women because this has helped my healing a lot, just give it a chance.

Anne: Which is awesome for you because there’s so not woo woo. Your room isn’t full of crystals and you’re not burning incense all over the place. You’re a high school teacher. Straightforward.

Sarah: I tell it like it is. Sometimes my bluntness gets people offended.

Anne: My mom, she is really cute. She was hesitant to try the meditations, she was like “What’s holding me back?” I’ll have to have her come on to talk about it. She took it and she was just crying the whole time, which is not like my mom at all. She called me and was like, oh my word. I didn’t know, it was so good. I was just crying and crying, and a lot of people have said that. It’s just like, let so much pain out, crying in a good way.

Has The Fear of Meditation Been Holding Me Back?

Sarah: It’s a healing crying. It’s not a distressed crying.

Anne: The fact that my mom liked it, she’s not woo-woo either. I hope that there’s something for everyone no matter what their personality is, no matter what their experience. t was everything that I wanted, and then I was just trying to be mindful of maybe what everyone else would like.

Anne: I think everything at BTR is because I needed it, I had to figure out, “What’s holding me back?” The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop, it’s because I needed a strategy. I tried everything that everybody else said and it didn’t work. No matter what I did, I could not figure out how to get myself out of his emotional and psychological abuse.

Even if you said it was abuse, there wasn’t anyone who was like, okay, now we know this. The Betrayal Trauma Workshop is for women who don’t know what to do. It’s very practical. Let’s all let go of what’s holding me back.

Let Go Of What’s Holding Me Back

It’s cool to have all of those resources that I wish I had, but everything was based on all of the obstacles that we face, legal obstacles, obstacles with clergy, just one right after another. It seems like they never end, but I feel like now I’ve written my book, which will be coming out soon. It’s like all of the stuff that I learned right now, I just want to apply it and talk about it all the time.

Now that it’s all built, because the good part is knowing that it works and seeing how it helps people.

Anne: I’m so glad. Well, thank you so much, Sarah, for taking the time to talk today.

Sarah: There’s just such a need, so many of us. I think you’re going to help a lot of women. You’ve already helped me.

Sarah: Yeah, my pleasure. Just keep going. One foot in front of the other. You’re doing great work for all the other women out there. Keep going. Try the workshop. It’s very helpful.

It is crucial for women to recognize the signs of clergy misconduct, as those who experience betrayal or emotional abuse often turn to their faith communities for solace and support. Here’s what you need to know.

If you relate to this, you need support. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.

Dave Gemmel, Associate Director of the NAD Ministerial Association, joins Anne Blythe, M.Ed. to discuss clergy misconduct. Congregants seek spiritual guidance, compassion, and leadership from clergy. When pastors, bishops, and other spiritual leaders use their authority to destroy a congregant’s trust or faith in God through misconduct, that sacred role is diminished, and victims may experience severe trauma, which often includes a crisis of faith.

Dave enumerates some of the ways that clergy can violate trust and commit misconduct:

• abuse
• adult sexual abuse
• harassment
• rape
• sexual assault
• sexualized verbal comments or visuals
• unwanted touches and advances
• use of sexualized materials including pornography
• stalking
• sexual abuse of youth or those without mental capacity to consent
• misuse of the pastoral/ministerial position
• Failing to protect a victim of abuse
• Can include criminal behaviors that are against the law in some nations, states, and communities.

Understanding How Clergy Misconduct Happens

As Dave explains, pastors have spiritual authority, which makes it impossible for an “asymmetrical relationship” between himself and a congregant. Because of the lack of “considered mutual consent,” a sexual relationship with a pastor or bishop is not an affair, but abuse. Women who have experienced this form of abuse may blame themselves, but abuse is never the victim’s fault.

When clergy take advantage of their position of power, congregants may feel disloyal or unworthy if they report misconduct. Furthermore, congregants, especially abused women, may not know they have betrayal trauma. Utilizing women’s intuition helps prevent clergy misconduct. Because women have adept intuitive abilities to decipher safe or unsafe individuals, Dave suggests all religious organizations implement a 50% policy.

This means that in search committees, boards, and other leadership committees that determine who is leading a congregation, women make up at least half of the group. When women discover betrayal and identify abuse in their relationships, they often seek support from clergy. Dave recommends that women and couples do not seek therapeutic counseling from clergy.

Instead, women suffering from the effects of betrayal and abuse can utilize professionals who are trained in trauma and abuse.

Trained coaches lead the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. If you are seeking validation, empowerment, knowledge, and support, join the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group today and find the community you deserve.

Transcript: The Truth About Clergy Misconduct

Anne: Today, I’m with Dave Gemmel. He’s an associate director of the NAD ministerial association. He received his doctorate of ministry with an emphasis on multicultural leadership from Fuller Theological Seminary in 1992. He began pastoring in the San Francisco bay area in 1978. Welcome Dave.

Pastor Dave: Thank you very much, Anne. It is a delight to be with you, and I love your mission. Betrayal Trauma Recovery aims to protect women from emotional abuse, psychological abuse, and coercion. We are on the same page.

Anne: Let’s just dive right in to talking about clergy misconduct. Many think it is only preying upon minors. Could you please define it?

Pastor Dave: Yeah, that’s a mouthful, isn’t it? Clergy misconduct, typically, we think of all the stories in the news, stories of the Catholic Church with pedophilia, abusing little boys in the church, and so that’s what comes to mind when we think of clergy misconduct, but the scope is actually a lot bigger than that. If I could just give a little preface here before we jump into it.

Clergy, many, if not most, have advanced education and have been carefully screened before endorsement by their congregations. Most are highly trained, behave with great integrity and professionalism. Having said all that, there is a segment of volunteers and professional clergy who violate sacred trust, and in doing so damage the reputation of all clergy.

That’s the segment that we’re going to zoom in on today. So what is clergy misconduct? It’s a betrayal of sacred trust, as I mentioned. And it can be on a continuum of abuse or gender directed behaviors by either a lay or clergy person with a ministerial relationship, whether they’re paid or unpaid.

The Scope Of Clergy Misconduct

Pastor Dave: Here are some of the things it can include. Abuse, adult sexual abuse, harassment, rape, sexual assault, sexualized verbal comments or visuals and unwelcome touch and advances. The use of inappropriate materials. Including pornography, stalking, sexual abuse of youth, or those without capacity or consent. Also misuse of the pastoral ministerial position, and sometimes criminal behaviors that are against the law in some nations, states, and communities.

So that’s an official definition of misconduct by clergy. That’s in the Book of Discipline of the United Methodist Church, which is one of the best out there.

Anne: So in your definition, you said gender directed behaviors. Are you talking about misogyny?

Pastor Dave: Yeah, that absolutely is misogyny. And that is proclaiming that women are not as valuable as men. And men have the right to dictate women’s behavior.

Anne: Let’s talk about your contention that pastors can’t have affairs with church members. And why when people say, oh, he had an affair with a member of his congregation, that’s not a thing.

Pastor Dave: Sometimes when a spiritual leader had an inappropriate relationship with a member of the congregation, and we write it off as an affair, I don’t believe it’s an affair. Here’s why, the word affair implies mutual consent between two adults. But there’s an asymmetrical role between pastor and congregant. In other words, the pastor has spiritual authority, which does not put them on the same playing field. That’s why it’s asymmetrical.

So any intimate relationship between a pastor and a congregant, I believe, is clergy misconduct. and cannot be considered mutual consent.

Even if it’s not physical coercion, the clergy is the one in a position of spiritual and emotional power and must be held responsible for the abuse of power.

Therapists & Clergy: Positions Of Power

Pastor Dave: So, any relationship between a spiritual leader and a member is not having an affair. It is clergy misconduct.

Anne: Thank you for making that so clear. It’s the same type of thing, where can you have an affair with your therapist? And the answer is also no, because he’s in a position of power. His role is to treat you for a mental illness. I think that that would fall into the same category in terms of therapy or other professionals.

Pastor Dave: Absolutely, and a therapist should lose their license and be barred from practicing. It’s on a continuum, and the reality is there are some predators who’ve managed to become clergy. The biggest study was done, it’s from the Journal of Scientific Study of Religion, titled Prevalence of Clergy Advances Toward Adults in Their Congregations. It was a twofold study. Victims of clergy misconduct were studied from a wide range of religions.

They were asked to tell their stories of abuse. And in almost all these cases, the clergy offenders in a series of small acts broke down the natural defenses. And took advantage of a position of spiritual power to eventually make the relationship inappropriate. But what do we call that? That’s a predator. And somehow there are a few of these predators that have managed to get in among the ranks of spiritual leaders.

It’s so dangerous, and here’s why, because the victims, the families, and the congregation did not seem to notice it. Or they refuse to confront the clergy. So there’s this special fog in a congregation that people aren’t looking for that, and so they don’t see it. And it makes a nice cloaking place for these predators in the ministry.

Predators In Religious Authority

Anne: Would you say this also applies to people in some type of religious authority, even if it’s just volunteer, when they’re not their congregants? So, for example, a neighbor who thinks, oh, this man is amazing because he’s a pastor. He might not be her pastor, but some religious title. In my church, we would call it a priesthood calling.

So even if they don’t belong to their same congregation, do you find that these types of predators use their titles for grooming others, not just people in their congregation?

Pastor Dave: You know, predators use whatever tools they can and if they can use a spiritual position they’ll do whatever they can to achieve their goal.

Anne: I think it’s an automatic way to gain people’s trust. So what steps can churches take in the prevention of clergy misconduct?

Pastor Dave: A few things. First of all, make sure that at least 50% of your search committee, policy committees, or boards, or however your church or synagogue is set up, 50% need to be women. And here’s why. I believe God created man and woman, and they complete humanity. If you just have one gender, you only get half of the picture. And so if there are only men on these committees, you’re half blind!

Many times women can pick up on things that men were clueless to. So it’s imperative that there is a 50% at least on all these committees. Does that sound wild to you? That’s my goal.

Anne: I think it sounds amazing. In my particular faith, that is not even an option right now.

Gender Balance On Church Committees

Anne: I’m like, oh, that would be a miracle if a woman complained and said, Hey, this was creepy. So many men would just be like, Oh, he’s just a nice guy. Don’t worry about it. You’re overreacting. And so, having women make up 50% would make a huge difference, because men seem to dismiss women’s statements about factual things or their intuition that something isn’t quite right.

Pastor Dave: Because most of us men have not experienced unwanted advances. To us, it’s just completely off our radar. It’s something we can’t relate to. And many women have. So immediately they pick up on it. That’s why we need women in these decision-making positions.

Anne: I love that, I’m going to pray for that in my own faith.

Pastor Dave: When a congregation or group selects a spiritual leader, you gotta check references. You know, we do that in business, how much more important it is in spiritual life. Now, when I say check references, that’s not just checking the resume and making the cursory calls on the resume.

https://youtube.com/shorts/ixVDYZDSVfc

But it’s calling previous congregations and talking to people in previous congregations, others who have worked with them and dig and dig and dig. And if this person is a predator, things will pop up. It may not be obvious, but three or four phone calls and following some threads, it may be possible to uncover any clergy misconduct.

Anne: Let’s talk about how the position of clergy can be problematic for someone with an exploitative character.

Pastor Dave: This is the heart of our conversation right now.

Safe Practices For Congregants

Pastor Dave: This may sound radical, but let me say, don’t go to your pastor or bishop for counseling. That’s a no no. It’s dangerous to go to pastors or spiritual leaders for counseling. And here’s why. Formal training of pastors, and particularly lay leaders, does not equip them to engage in counseling. Counseling is full of supervised counseling that takes thousands of hours before you become certified. It takes certification by state and governing bodies.

Anne: So many victims go to clergy for spiritual counseling. What’s the difference between spiritual counseling and the counseling you’re talking about.

Pastor Dave: Yeah, that’s a good question. Spiritual counseling, I don’t think that’s appropriate. I think it’s much better in a support group to develop those spiritual skills and insights. As far as one-on-one counseling, I think that’s out of the question, whether spiritual or otherwise.

Anne: One thing I suggest is if you’re going into clergy to report your husband’s abuse, inappropriate content use or coercion. Or any type of abuse, emotional or psychological abuse.

Always take another woman with you who understands abuse. From our experience, you are at the greatest risk of him giving you bad advice. Or saying things like, well, just have more intercourse with him, or how many times do you have it? We get the craziest things clergy has said to victims of abuse. Are you making dinner? Are you praying? Stuff like that.

Pastor Dave: That’s a great suggestion, and that leads me to don’t meet with a pastor by yourself.

Anne: We’re on the same page, yay!

The Role Of Clergy In Counseling

Pastor Dave: We are. This is not rocket science here. This is just a simple practical device that comes out of years and years of bad practice and seeing examples of clergy misconduct. So we need to turn it around and have a good practice to ensure there is no clergy misconduct. So here’s some suggestions. Don’t meet with the pastor by yourself. If you do, find places to meet people where others can observed you.

Alright, so I don’t know if the pastor has an office. If so, the office door should be open, there should be someone within eyesight of the office. I would suggest that if there’s no office, meet at a public place. Coffee shop, ice cream shop, if we’re in Salt Lake City. Most of all, choose a place where you feel safe. And if you want to bring a friend with you, that will increase safety awareness.

Anne: Let’s talk about that for a minute. So, many women will go to clergy to be absolved of their own sins. They’re embarrassed, they don’t want anyone else to know. What would you tell women in this scenario who are ashamed of their own behavior?

They want to repent. And they’re thinking, I don’t wanna tell my mom, so my mom can’t come in with me to speak to my bishop or pastor, or perhaps some scenario like that. What advice would you give for women in that situation?

Pastor Dave: Yeah, well, we’ll get into a theological discussion right now, because I’m not into that at all. As a pastor, I think that’s between them and the Lord.

Pastors & Congregants, Power Dynamics

Pastor Dave: If they want a support group, a group is a great place to do it. As a spiritual leader, I don’t want to look out at my congregation and know specifically what their sins are. I mean, that’s crazy.

Anne: That’s interesting. So that would be a theological difference, obviously, between yours and my faith. Because in my faith, you’re expected to confess serious sins, and that’s part of the repentance process. You also would get that in like the Catholic faith, confession. And there’s several other faiths who believe in that spiritual practice of confession.

Pastor Dave: Absolutely, again, this is theological. I don’t believe as a member of the clergy that I have any absolving power over sin. That’s something that is between God and the person. So that’s not a power that I believe I’ve been bequeathed with. But yeah, we could get into a theological discussion.

Anne: Yeah, I’m grateful for your insight. So thank you for sharing that. I’ve actually never considered that’s not clergy’s role before until right this second, talking to you. If you have anything else you want to add, I’m happy to hear it.

Pastor Dave: Yeah, well, we can have a Bible study sometime, take a look at it. That would be fun.

Anne: Yeah, that’s awesome. You’re opening my mind. Thank you, for the purposes of this podcast, let’s continue talking about the guidelines that can keep congregants safe.

Other Things To Prevent Clergy Misconduct

Pastor Dave: A couple other things to prevent clergy misconduct, keep messaging professional. So whatever the messaging is, whether it’s a phone call, a text or an email. Look at that text, that messaging, make sure it is professional. That it doesn’t, well, you used the word creepy. And that there’s nothing in there that says this relationship is or could be something more than what it is already, a professional relationship.

And if it goes beyond that, the bell should be going off and say, Hey, there’s a problem here. So here are some things to do to prevent clergy misconduct from happening. If it’s email, reply back and CC some people, so they can see what’s going on. If it’s text messaging, increase it to a group message with some trusted people.

Phone calls, make sure you have someone in the room with you when you’re having that phone call, put it on speakerphone if you have to. So all these things will provide safety barriers from someone on the other end who may be, and you don’t know for sure, may be a predator.

Anne: I’m so grateful that you’re talking about this in such a candid way. Thank you so much. So for the purposes of this podcast, since my listeners are victims of emotional and psychological abuse and coercion from their husbands. Who often go into clergy. And in my particular faith, the clergy is volunteer. None of them are highly trained, but I have heard stories from all faiths, that often clergy doesn’t understand abuse and gives victims of abuse harmful counsel.

General Clergy Misconduct

Pastor Dave: That may not be considered clergy misconduct, but it certainly is unprofessional and does not fit with the sacred trust of ministry. I would call it pastoral misconduct or clergy misconduct in general.

Anne: Yeah. So let’s talk about this. My podcast is interfaith. So I speak with women who are Catholic Baptist, Jewish, every denomination of every type of faith. Women report that these interactions with clergy are traumatizing. When they talk about their husband’s abuse. They receive responses like you need more intercourse, or you need to be a Biblical woman and submit.

So specifically to my listeners, when they’re not in the scenario of experiencing clergy misconduct. Meaning there’s no intimate relationship with clergy, but they are experiencing clergy misconduct in general. Because they get misinformation when they go for help.

Pastor Dave: I’m going to give just a really easy answer. Don’t go to your pastor for marital counseling. Honestly, I mean, I have my doctorate, and I do not consider I have enough education to do marriage counseling. And if I begin, I am outside my knowledge base, and I am bound to give some stupid advice. So, I’d rather not do that. And for your listeners, I would rather they don’t get stupid advice either.

If they’re going to someone who knows less than they do, I mean, what’s the point? That’s a waste of time. Go to someone who actually has competency in that area.

Anne: Women also report going to family or marriage counseling and having it go off the rails. And not keep them safe. So this isn’t just a clergy issue.

Understanding Emotional & Psychological Abuse

Anne: This is a serious societal issue about people not understanding emotional and psychological abuse, how to spot it, and how to help victims get to safety. Similarly, my advice to our listeners is don’t go to a marriage and family therapist because they are bound by their licensing to see it as an equal problem. With an abuse situation, you really need a professional who genuinely understands emotional and psychological abuse and coercion.

Because it’s not just a communication issue where you’re going to improve your communication, and things will get better. If you are wondering if you’re emotionally abused, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

Pastor Dave: And I would advise those in a position of spiritual power to work with groups such as yours that really have good skills in this area.

Anne: Yeah, that’s fantastic. So that’s what we specialize in. Emotional and psychological abuse and coercion, especially when it’s difficult for people to see it. Even victims themselves, when they’re not educated about it. It’s very difficult for them to even understand what’s going on. When we educate women about it, they’re like, Oh, now this is clear. So let’s go back to clergy misconduct.

If there’s anyone listening who has experienced this or is experiencing it currently. I’m sure there are many listeners whose husbands are pastors or clergy. Who know their husband had misconduct with one of the congregation members. This is the wife of the pastor, who is aware of her husband’s misconduct.

So I would say it’s more likely that someone is listening in this scenario. However, I’m sure there are also women who have experienced intimate misconduct themselves.

Advice For Victims Of Clergy Misconduct

Pastor Dave: And that number is not small. Referring to that previous study, over three percent of women in any congregation have experienced clergy misconduct. So it’s not a small group of people. And I’m imagining that maybe one of your listeners has experienced it, and they’ve listened to it. And they say, yeah, that’s me. What do I do about it?

I think the first thing you need to know is it’s not your fault. It’s a predator’s fault, not yours. You are a victim. You are a victim of clergy misconduct. So don’t feel guilty about it. And if you’re ready, and you have support, speak up. And then find people that can walk on that healing journey with you.

Anne: And what would you say to the many wives who know about their husband’s misconduct and who have not been removed from their positions?

Support For Wives

Anne: In fact, we have over 60,000 women in our community, and offer Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. We hear stories of this frequently where their husband uses inappropriate material, for example, or he’s had an affair, not necessarily with a member of the congregation, but with somebody. And he has shown he doesn’t have intimate integrity or integrity at all because he’s lied about it. What would you say to wives in that scenario?

Pastor Dave: If the evidence is clear, and you’re willing to take the risk, take that evidence to the person that’s overseeing your husband, and make clear your husband should not be holding that office.

Anne: Yeah, we’ve had lots of women who have done that and then they’ve just been dismissed. So that’s the thing that’s really difficult for women as they sometimes try and try and then it just gets exhausting.

Pastor Dave: It’s tough. You have to have a support team with you. To do it all on your own, and you’re being gaslighted just makes it more and more difficult. So you need that strength of a community behind you. Because every step you take, it gets ratcheted up on the other side. So you have to be strong. And to be strong, you’ve got to have people behind you. You’ve got to have a group of people that can listen to you, believe you, support you, and encourage you.

Anne: Well, I appreciate everything you’ve shared today about clergy misconduct, thank you so much for your time.

Pastor Dave: Thank you very much, Anne.

Melea Stevens, from the National Center of Exploitation, and Anne Blythe, M.Ed. talk about how we can protect children online. With kids spending increasing amounts of time on smartphones, tablets, and computers, ensuring their safety requires tools, education, and awareness.

1. Because the foundation of all abuse is emotional manipulation, teach children the 19 different types of emotional abuse. Take our free emotional abuse quiz to learn more.
2. Educating children about online safety is crucial. Teach them to recognize potential dangers, like sharing personal information, talking to strangers, or clicking on suspicious links. Encouraging open communication means they’ll feel comfortable coming to you if something seems wrong.

Transcript: How Can We Protect Children Online?

Anne: I have Melea Stevens on today’s episode. She is a board member of the National Center on Exploitation.

Melea, welcome.

Melea: Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be with you.

Anne: Most people don’t realize that hardcore explicit content is illegal because they are so normalized.

Melea: Yes, Anne, you’re absolutely right. Society normalizes harmful content. Most people don’t realize that these easily accessible acts are actually illegal. At least the extreme forms, which are often what it entails today. The only legal aspects are very limited and defined differently.

Up until the early nineties, our Department of Justice was enforcing federal obscenity laws that applied to these situations. But we’ve grown very lax, if not completely stopped, enforcing our existing laws. So at this point, it’s rampant. Those engaging in these acts know they can do whatever they want because we’re not enforcing existing laws. Because of this, it’s becoming increasingly difficult to protect children online.

Anne: All forms of online exploitation are abusive. They hurt people. Whether you’re participating in it, actively engaging in it, or in a relationship with someone actively engaging in it, it’s going to hurt everyone involved.

Alabama’s Resolution To Protect Children Online

Anne: You wrote an article entitled, Alabama’s Resolution to Declare P__ography a Public Health Crisis is Urgently Needed. Did that pass?

Melea: Yes, it did.

Anne: Awesome. In that article, you mentioned the heartbreaking experiences you’ve had working with children impacted by online explicit content as young as six to 11 years old. Would you mind telling our listeners a bit about your experiences?

Melea: Yeah, so over the course of 20 years, I’ve seen the devastating effects of this content on adults, individual lives, marriages, and as we may touch on later, these types of exploitation. It’s an epidemic. As I’ve interacted with countless individuals and couples struggling due to this content, I’ve witnessed the deep pain and destruction it causes. I don’t specialize in kids. But protecting children online should be a top priority for everyone.

The Case Of A Young Girl’s Exposure

Melea: A little girl who was six years old was first impacted by harmful online content at the neighbor’s house. It’s so frustrating that we can’t protect children online all the time.

After one exposure, she and the little girl down the street started acting out. The families decided, if we just don’t talk about it, maybe they’ll forget about it and it’ll go away. But it didn’t go away. She became more and more aggressive.

It escalated to the point where she performed different behaviors she had witnessed. Very violent behaviors on her baby sibling barely two years old. This alarmed her parents. They continued to think, okay, maybe if we just remove her from these situations and try to monitor her, it’ll stop.

But she got in trouble at school because she stole phones from teachers’ purses so she could access harmful material. This little girl’s feet don’t hit the floor.

Her affect is very flat—almost eerily flat. And her parents told me, “She doesn’t bond the same, she’s not the same child. She seems cold, withdrawn, and isolated. And we don’t know what to do.”

When I talked to the little girl, I carefully asked her questions because I wasn’t sure how she would react. Then, without hesitation, she said, “I don’t see why my parents are bringing me here.”

“I don’t see what’s wrong with it. You should be able to do whatever you want, whenever you want.”

It’s so alarming what happens when we fail to protect children online.

How Can We Protect Children Online? A Young Boy’s Struggle

Melea: There was an 11-year-old boy who got into trouble because of what he was doing at night. His parents didn’t know when he first saw explicit online content, but he figured out that the neighbor had magazines about it. So, at night, he would sneak out of his house and look in the neighbor’s mailbox. Eventually, it got worse. He started breaking into the neighbor’s house because he couldn’t find what he wanted at home.

The neighbor didn’t have kids, just adults, but the boy would go inside and use their computer to look for the content he wanted. This happened more than once. The neighbors got frustrated, so they started calling the boy’s parents. They would say, “Your son is on our computer again. Come get him, please!”

So these things really opened my eyes to the fact that this material truly hijacks the brain of any user, but especially a child. We need to do everything we can to protect children from online abuse. And it provides miseducation and sets them on a trajectory of life that is extremely problematic. And it was heartbreaking.

Anne: Explicit content is abusive. It’s always going to be an abuse issue. And when it comes to children, they’re not abusers, but are being abused by the online material.

Melea: Showing a child anything about pornography hurts them emotionally. Their brains aren’t ready to understand those images or figure out what they mean. This confuses them and takes over their thoughts and feelings. As a result, their brain and body react in ways they can’t control. To deal with the trauma, they may feel forced to act out. This is why it’s so important to protect children online.

Recognizing Red Flags In Children

So when you have “child on child” harmful behavior, it’s a trauma response to what they’ve been exposed to.

Anne: So speaking of these children, you pointed out that parents noticed changes in their children. What red flags should parents know to look for?

Melea: Things that they might notice with children exposed to explicit content may become more isolated, withdrawn, or depressed. They may become sullen, and they may have a bad attitude towards other friends, playmates, especially people of opposite gender.

They may become more aggressive. You may see acting out that, you know, is age-inappropriate, or peeping. If you look at their browser history, if they’re on the internet and have been erasing the browser history. Or if you see them withdrawing to the bathroom for a long time, locking doors for extended periods, and taking devices with them. Those are just things that might raise a flag.

Anne: I think that affect you talked about with that poor young victim where she wasn’t very emotional, right? That’s what you’re talking about when you say a flat affect is also a red flag.

Melea: From my understanding, the exposure to explicit content happened at the neighbor’s house. The little girl down the street, her father was a consumer. There were no filters on any devices, and it was readily available at the home. The father confessed that, and the friend was already acting out due to explicit content.

Anne: Because that statement, “I should do what I want to whoever I want”, is a pattern that we see. People who act irresponsibly in dangerous ways say things like that.

Protect Children Online From Exploitation

Melea: Absolutely. Explicit content sends the message that doing what you want to people is a right. It’s such a degrading, violent, racist that it wears down any sense of right and wrong, any sense of boundaries.

Anne: Yeah, you can add misogynist to that list, of course.

Melea: Yeah, a hundred percent.

Anne: Explicit content is documentation of exploitation. It’s filmed documentation of abuse and exploitation. Tell me about your experience with victims of exploitation. What has that taught you about the dangers of explicit content?

Melea: Around the same time I saw these children, I started meeting survivors of exploitation for the first time. Two of the survivors told me how someone forced them to make harmful content. One of them was a young boy. The people who made them create this content tried to make it look like they were happy doing it. This experience shocked me and helped me understand how people create and demand this kind of harmful content. It is so important to protect children online from exploitation and viewing others exploitation.

Right now, there’s a lot of news about websites like this. These websites are known for sharing content about cheating, and they make money in harmful ways. They allow terrible and violent content that clearly hurts people. And they profit from it. It’s upsetting to think about. Every year, we have a big meeting at the National Center on Exploitation.

Protecting Children Online: The Hidden Impact of Harmful Content

Melea: A few years ago, one man admitted cheating on his partner and hurting many people. Then, he explained how he tricked and pressured others into situations they didn’t want. For years, he told himself it wasn’t a big deal. But finally, he realized his actions caused pain and ruined the lives of those around him.

He admitted that he hurt his partners on purpose by wearing them down emotionally. He made them feel like they caused the problems. None of the people he hurt came back to thank him or say he taught them lessons. Instead, many of them dealt with deep emotional pain for a long time. Relationships fell apart and never got fixed. Again and again, we hear stories like this. People who use explicit content cause emotional betrayal, and their behavior harms people.

https://youtube.com/shorts/1pg8oHx0v3A His Emotionally Abusive Behaviors

Anne: If you want to stop the pain caused by cheating, the first step is to see how much harm it does. Cheating hurts more than one person—it affects everyone involved in big ways. It also leaves lasting scars. Some people might say cheating isn’t a big deal or try to make excuses for it, but they ignore how much it hurts others. That’s why it’s so important to take action right away. You can get help, from the best betrayal trauma resources, to break this harmful cycle. With help, you can also find and fix the deeper problems that cause this behavior.

Melea: Exactly! Some people say, “Cheating is a choice, and they have the right to make their own decisions.” But even in relationships that claim to be open, like polyamory or open marriages, it causes problems. Often, someone realizes later that they were hurt by lies or trickery paraded as honesty or freedom. Words like “ethical non-monogamy” sometimes hide cheating and help people dodge responsibility for the pain they caused.

Online Explicit Content Results In Deception

Anne: I often say explicit is the documentation of deception. It’s real betrayal, not just in private, but it effects families and communities. And not only is this emotional harm documented, but people actively justify it.

Melea: It’s like watching emotional harm happen right in front of you. I remember one story where a person shared how their friends cheered them on for their actions.

Anne: And people often assume that explicit content is harmless or only affects the immediate parties involved. They think it’s just a personal choice or that the other person consented to it fully. But that’s not true at all—it’s a dangerous misconception.

Melea: Yes, over the past 25 years, studies have shown that people who hurt others in their relationships often cheat. The types of habits that lead to a lot of harm, that’s why we should protect children online.

The Brain’s Response To Explicit Content

There was no remorse, even after being in prison for an extended period. And that’s disturbing. Studies demonstrate that continual engagement in explicit content damages the pleasure or reward pathways of the brain, similar to the effects of illicit drugs like heroin or cocaine. It actually causes the gray matter to atrophy and shrink. Which is why it’s so important to protect children from ever being exposed online.

Experts explain that the frontal lobe of your brain controls things like kindness, caring for others, and empathy. But when someone keeps making harmful choices, like being unfaithful, this part of the brain can shrink. As it shrinks, empathy fades. This means people start seeing others as things to use, not as people to care about. Over time, these bad choices actually change how the brain works. This creates unhealthy habits, breaks trust, and makes it harder to have real, loving relationships.

Anne: I often say, if you’re an alcoholic, you abuse alcohol. If you’re a drug addict, you abuse drugs. If you’re engaging in watching explicit content, you harm relationships and people. It’s a destructive cycle.

Melea: Absolutely.

Anne: And it’s an issue that can’t be ignored.

Melea: Explicit content affects not just the individuals directly involved, but often their families, too. It’s something that many don’t fully understand, especially when it escalates quickly into patterns of deceit and betrayal. For some, this behavior can spiral into obsessive thoughts and damaging actions, consuming their time, energy, and emotional well-being.

Protecting Children From A Cycle of Harm

Anne: And on the other side of this, for their family members, the effects are profound. Children experience neglect and a lack of empathy from the parent consumed by pornography. For loved ones, this often feels like emotional abandonment or abuse. The addict is caught in their cycle, and their family members are trapped in the ripple effects of that cycle.

Melea: Exactly. Often, when couples come in, the husband has been cheating for a long time. The wife feels frazzled, cries a lot, and doesn’t know what to do next. When she finally says, “I can’t do this anymore,” it usually means she has been carrying all the emotional weight in the relationship. Her husband focuses more on his cheating than on her, so she feels neglected and abandoned. As a result, she keeps thinking she’s not good enough, not pretty enough, or not wanted.

She faces constant psychological, emotional, and verbal abuse because of the betrayal and distance in her marriage. Meanwhile, her husband ignores how much his behavior hurts her because he believes it is normal. At the same time, the children feel the impact for years. Many kids who grow up in families affected by explicit content struggle as they get older. They often deal with low self-esteem and carry harmful lessons they learned from their parents’ actions.

A Public Health Crisis, How Can We Protect Children Online?

Anne: And that’s what makes this a public health crisis. Speaking of that, what do you hope can be achieved through your state’s formal recognition of explicit content as a public health concern?

Melea: I want everyone to understand how much harm explicit content causes. It hurts people, breaks relationships, damages families, and affects our whole society. In Alabama, we have already made progress. We are raising awareness and building momentum for change. Next, I want to bring these efforts into schools. Kids should learn about explicit content alongside lessons on preventing child abuse and trafficking. Teaching this early can make a big difference. Protecting children online starts with education!

We need to enforce laws better to protect vulnerable people. When we protect children online we can help individuals and families heal. This can stop harm before it gets worse. Plus, we need to raise awareness and work together to fight against all kinds of relational harm. Explicit content often leads to bigger problems, so stopping it early can make a big difference. There’s a lot we can do, and it all starts with taking action.

Anne: Many of our listeners are women who have experienced this type of harm in their homes. Their husbands, or ex-husbands, have engaged in this behavior, leaving them to deal with the emotional fallout. What would you encourage them to do if they want to advocate for change in their states or become involved on a legislative or community level?

Melea: I’d encourage them to use their experiences to drive change. Whether it’s speaking out, supporting awareness campaigns, or advocating for better resources to protect children online, every effort matters. Healing is possible, and so is creating a healthier, more compassionate future for families.

The Importance Of Protecting Our Own Children and Families First

Anne: Before you answer this, I want to share something important with the women listening. First, make sure your home is a safe and peaceful place for you. Many women feel scared and unsure in their own homes because of emotional or psychological abuse. This makes them feel stuck and powerless.

They might also worry about how they can make a living. But remember, you are not alone, and there are steps you can take to find safety and support.Instead of focusing only on stopping explicit content outside the home, start by making sure you and your family are safe inside your home. Your first priority is to create a space where everyone feels emotionally, mentally, and physically secure. When your home is safe, you protect yourself and your children from this kind of harm. This is the most important step, and it makes a big difference for everyone in your family. So, begin at home, and take care of what you can control first.

Protect Children Online By Focusing On Safety

Melea: Amen.

Anne: Do that first. And then if you’re like, I want to write some legislation like Melea, what would you say if they’re ready for advocacy?

Melea: I totally agree that stabilizing is the first and most important step. After that, turning their pain into action can be really powerful. They can use their voice to make a big difference and become agents of change. It hurts people, and there are many ways they can help fight against it. For example, they can work to get their state to declare explicit materials a public health crisis. So far, 15 states have already done this. It’s a great way to take action and create change!

Protect Children Online: Community Involvement & Awareness

Melea: But if their state hasn’t passed it yet, and they’d like to promote it, I would urge them to contact the National Center on Exploitation to the portions that talk about the public health crisis related to harmful content. And to familiarize themselves with the facts. It takes a good bit of consistent energy and focus to work with legislators. It is worth it, because it can be deeply harmful, and addressing it is an important process.

We worked with many local leaders, including anti-trafficking groups. We also worked with people from both political parties because this is an issue everyone cares about. The Senate agreed and voted to pass it, with everyone saying yes. I learned so much during this process. There are so many ways to help! For example, you can raise awareness at your school, church, or even in your neighborhood. Plus, there’s a super easy presentation you can share right at home. Let’s all work together to make a difference!

If they want to raise awareness among other moms and dads. Churches and schools desperately need our voices to protect children online.

Anne: NCOSE has some amazing initiatives. I spoke at the summit. I’ve been to the summit twice and had a good experience there. If you join their newsletter, that’s a good place to start.

Melea: Yes. I would encourage your listeners to consider joining our summit this summer.

Anne: You mentioned P__nhub, which is our arch nemesis.

Support Initiative to Shut Down P__nhub

Anne: There is a current initiative to shut down P__nhub. Can you talk about that?

Melea: Yes, there’s an initiative by Layla Micklewaite with Exodus Cry. She’s their abolition strategist. It’s raising awareness about trafficking within industries that fuel explicit content, and they’re gaining tremendous traction. They’ve had over a million signatures, and we would love your audience to join us in this effort to stop harming children online.

Anne: Wouldn’t that be a miracle?

Melea: Yes.

Why Explicit Content Contributes To Infidelity

Anne: Many women in our community pray for a miracle. They hope their husbands can change, almost like being brought back to life, like Lazarus. These men seem spiritually lost. They show no emotion, no compassion, and no empathy. Their actions often harm their families and put everyone at risk. Because of this, so many women keep praying for a miracle. But no one really knows what those miracles will look like.

I think shutting down P__nhub would be a big answer to the prayers of so many women. These women pray for their homes, their husbands, and their families. But I also want them to see that they are part of something bigger. Their prayers are making a difference, and together, they are helping. For many of the victims I know, things got really hard. Their marriages ended in divorce, and they still face emotional and mental pain. A lot of this pain comes from the problems caused by cheating.

There’s no simple or immediate end in sight for their recovery process. But if you can’t see change in your own life, sometimes it helps to take a step back and observe the victories happening. And know that you haven’t been forgotten—you can be part of a larger movement.

Hopes For DOJ Enforcement To Protect Children Online

Anne: Sometimes that gives a victim hope that there’s a little light at the end of the tunnel.

Melea: It’s exciting and gives me so much hope. For example, when I go to events like the summit, I get to meet other people who care about the same things I do. This makes me feel stronger and more motivated. Also, shutting down P__nhub feels like a dream come true. But even more, I hope the Department of Justice will start enforcing the federal obscenity laws we already have. If they do, it would be a big step forward in protecting children online.

If we fully enforced the laws like we used to, it wouldn’t be on the internet. It wouldn’t show up on cable, satellite, or in the mail because those things are illegal. Instead, it would go back to being in a restricted category, like softcore explicit material. People would only find it in adult bookstores, which are hard to get to. To make this happen, we need the Attorney General to focus on enforcing these laws and take action.

Helping Victims Get Abuse Education

So that is one of my consistent prayers, is that we’ll have someone who’s fearless and will reactivate that section lying dormant.

Anne: Absolutely, that’s another good thing to pray for. Let’s pray for everyone to protect children online. As if you didn’t have enough things to pray for listeners.

Melea: You have to. I think God understands that for sure. Pray without ceasing some more. God hears you. God is moving.

Anne: Malea, thank you so much for being on today’s episode. We appreciate your time.

Melea: It’s my pleasure and honor. Thank you, Anne.

Covert emotional abuse is difficult to identify. If you’re wondering if you’re husband is using covert emotional abuse, here’s what you need to know.

To discover if your husband is emotionally abusive, take this free emotional abuse quiz.

Anne Blythe, M.Ed. Host of The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, talks to Nadira, a member of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery community about her husband’s covert emotional abuse.

6 Examples of Covert Emotional Abuse

1. Covert Emotional Abuse Is A Lack Of Consideration
2. Neglect Is Covert Emotional Abuse
3. Secret Pornography Use Is Covert Emotional Abuse
4. Lying Is Covert Emotional Abuse
5. Covert Emotional Abuse Looks Nice and Kind
6. If It’s Covert Emotional Abuse, There Will Be No Resolution

Covert Emotional Abuse Is Dangerous Because It’s Invisible

Covert abusers are often charming, confident, and seem to speak and act in a gentle and polite manner. It can be terrifying for victims to suddenly realize that the inconsistent cruelty and confusion they experience is abuse.

Men who covertly abuse women don’t always hit, yell, break things, or lash out. Instead, the abuse is more subtle and hard to pin down. This makes covert abusers appear “normal” and makes victims feel crazy, overly-sensitive, and nit-picky. The reality, of course, is that victims are often under reacting to the gaslighting, manipulation, and crazy-making they are experiencing.

Covert Abusers Lie – And Put Victims In Serious Danger

Because abusive men usually lie about their sexual behaviors, including exploitative materials use and affairs. Women are in serious danger of STD infection. When men lie about their behavior, or withhold information, they commit coercion.

Coercion is an umbrella term for partner rape and sexual abuse. Women are victims of coercion if they don’t have the information they need to give informed consent before contact.

When women have contact without knowing the truth about their partner’s use, past and/or current partner(s), STDs, compulsive masturbation, or other behaviors, they become at-risk for STDs and STIs, exploitation, and the intense trauma that accompanies betrayal.

Covert Abusers Normalize Abuse By Harming Victims Quietly

One of the most dangerous aspects of covert abuse is the way it is gradually intensified and normalized by abusers.

Covert abusers are master-manipulators and often have more self-control than physical batterers. Because of this, they can slowly groom victims into accepting abuse as normal – and even feel grateful during the brief periods when their partner is not inflicting psychological damage.

Covert Abusers Hide Behind The “Sex Addict” Label

Because covert abusers are often exploitative materials users. Men will hide behind the label of “sex addict”, reaping the privileges of being an “addict” while continuing to harm and cast blame on partners.

While some individuals may truly suffer from addiction to sex and pornography (yes, it is addictive), all men who use pornography are abusers.

When therapists, 12-step groups, clergy, and others encourage families to view the abusive man as addicted, they minimize the danger of the abuse and enable the abuser. Abusers can change, but it’s probably not through CSAT therapists.

At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we know how maddening, terrifying, and heartbreaking it can be to suffer at the hands of a covert abuser. The confusion and distortion of reality is enough to drain energy, hope, and joy from anyone’s life.

But healing is possible: with self-care, safety, and support. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group meets daily in multiple time zones to offer victims a safe place to process trauma, share their stories, ask questions, and connect with other victims who get it. Join today and begin your journey to healing.

Transcript: What Is Covert Emotional Abuse?

Anne: Before we get to this week’s guest. We have a lot of women who listen to the podcast, who are not of any faith or aren’t Christians. I want to welcome everyone and thank everyone for listening. When women share on the podcast, I always want them to share from their own personal faith or paradigm. That means I frequently share from my own, and this podcast is not just for members of my church, but for everybody.

We have a member of our community on today’s episode, who comes from a Muslim background, although she converted to Christianity. We’re going to call her Nadira. Nadira and I will be talking about covert emotional abuse. And as she shares her story, I’m going to stop and point out six examples of covert emotional abuse. Welcome Nadira.

Nadira: Hi Anne. I have to say that’s something I appreciate about your podcast, because I know you’re a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And so when I first started listening, I thought maybe it was just for people that belong to that faith. But as I listened to the podcast, I was encouraged that this is for all women from all types of faith backgrounds.

But the truth is, we share this thing in common, in that we’ve all been abused. It’s been comforting for me to hear from all types of women with all types of beliefs.

Nadira’s Early Relationship and Red Flags

Anne: Oh, thank you so much for saying that. Yeah, that’s important to me that everyone feels welcome here. Everyone has different epiphanies based on their experience. I want women to share those. So the other women can hear them and realize they’re not alone. And that we’re all so similar.

Thanks for saying that. I appreciate it. Let’s talk about your story. Did you recognize abusive behaviors in the beginning?

Nadira: What I will say is yes and no. No, I didn’t have a category or the right verbiage for it. But what I knew was something was terribly wrong from the beginning. I’m Middle Eastern.

My dad is from the Middle East, and I was raised Muslim, but came to faith as a Christian when I was 16. I took that decision seriously and devoted my life to my faith. It was life changing for me. And when I met my ex-husband, he was on full time staff with a Christian organization.

He was basically a missionary. We actually took Bible classes together when I met him. He checked all the boxes. He is a master manipulator, like men I’ve heard about on this podcast. And so sadly, I kept thinking, well if I would change, or maybe I’m being ridiculous. I kept questioning myself, but innately, I knew something was terribly wrong.

Honeymoon Incident: First Example of Abuse

Nadira: On our honeymoon, my ex-husband actually decided to play volleyball in a two on two tournament for two days in a row with a totally hot woman in her bikini and flirt with her the whole time. Now, I asked him about it. I’m a person who’s forthright in what I feel, and I told him I felt hurt. I said I didn’t want him to do it, and the next day he did it again.

Anne: Oh wow, wow, on your honeymoon. I’m so sorry. So that’s our first example of covert emotional abuse. It was his absolute lack of consideration for you on your honeymoon. Like he was more into this other person than his own wife on her honeymoon. I am so sorry. I mean, how did the rest of the honeymoon go?

Nadira: I always felt like I was overly jealous in the conversations with him. I was insane. And so right from the get go, there was a precedent set that he could do whatever he wanted and flip it all around. And I would feel like what is wrong with me?

That continued, and so in my gut, I always knew there was something terribly wrong. But my ex-husband, like so many people I’ve heard about on this podcast, which really helped me not feel alone. He’s well liked, by the way. And he’s always been the pastor’s best friend. He’s a successful businessman. He was actually a star athlete.

Emotional Neglect: Second Example of covert emotional Abuse

Nadira: He had this Opie Taylor image, that he was just this aw shucks, unassuming guy, and everyone loved and trusted him. And so I always felt like, what’s wrong with me? And he would say that to me, like, what’s wrong with you? Everybody else loves me. But I was extremely neglected in our home.

I was a newlywed, I just moved across the country. And I felt very alone. We lived in a house built in 1948, so it was very small. He would disappear into the office for hours, and he would work long hours outside the home. And in his free time, he was either in the office. Or he watched TV and I was so lonely. I was seven months pregnant.

And I thought I’m going to leave and see if he even notices. So, I left the house, seven months pregnant, in an unsafe area, by the way. And two and a half hours later, he calls me and says, What are you doing? Where are you at? It took two and a half hours for him to even notice that I had left our little 1, 200 square foot house. So, the neglect was extreme.

Anne: That’s our second example of covert emotional abuse, emotional neglect. Like he didn’t even notice that you were missing. I can imagine in that situation you would feel so alone. I went through that too. Because right after I married, I moved to be with my ex, and I felt so alone too. And he would just take off and not tell me where he was going. What else did you notice early on? Other than the emotional neglect?

Discovering exploitative material: Third Example of Abuse

Nadira: Pretty early on, one week before our oldest child’s birth. I had gone downstairs earlier than normal and caught my ex-husband looking at it.

Anne: And there is example number three. So the third example of covert emotional abuse is secretly using. It’s covert because you can’t see it because he’s hiding it from you.

Nadira: Prior to marriage, I had actually asked him, which is abnormal at the time. But I had asked him about it, because I heard of a story where pornography had invaded a marriage. And so I asked him about his experience with it. And of course, he lied to me and said he didn’t have a problem or any issues with it.

I went through all the normal feelings of what’s wrong with me. Why am I not enough? Does he love me? All those questions that are normal. So when I caught him one week before the birth of our first child. At that point, I knew, okay, there is something much deeper going on here. That’s not about me.

Lying and Deception: Fourth Example of Abuse

Anne: Lying is example number four. Lying is covert emotional abuse. You’re resisting the entire time. Knowing that something was wrong, and in your efforts to resist, where else did you turn for help?

Nadira: Yeah, I tried a lot of things. I’m just a proactive person, especially in relationships. From the beginning, I was reaching out for marriage counseling, pastoral counseling, to do marriage workshops.

He worked for a well known Christian organization, and they had resources for us. So we were utilizing all those resources. In all that, he could answer and look like a shining great guy. But no one was in our home to see the neglect. For other listeners who can relate to this, I wanted to share this.

So, my ex-husband was not a screamer or yeller. He did push me once or twice, which is abuse. That was in a really extreme moment, and it was not the norm. He did everything with a smile on his face. So he was always cool, calm, collected, and always smiling. So all the neglect, all the flirting with other women in front of me. And the inappropriate stuff he’s done with our children has all been done with a smile on his face. It was not this ogre like persona.

The Smiling Abuser: Fifth Example of covert emotional Abuse

Anne: Let’s pause here for just a second to point out the fifth example of covert emotional abuse, even something like what is featurism. It doesn’t look bad, it looks nice and kind, he looks like a responsible, upstanding person. And that’s why it’s covert, because you cannot see it. Before we get to the inappropriate things he did with your kids. Can we return to marriage counseling? When you did pastoral counseling, did anyone identify the abuse or him as an abuser?

Nadira: Never, not one time. So to give you a little history, I caught him. Well, then I caught him again. And then he seemed to do well for years. And then the last time I caught him, it had escalated for years. There was a lot I didn’t know, he had been having affairs. He had engaged with prostitutes. Also, he had brought prostitutes into our home on several occasions. He had done all these horrific things to our family. And at that point even, I was told it was addiction.

So then we went the addiction route for years. Even when he went to treatment, which he did for addiction. Which I think was a huge waste of $50,000, because it upped his pathology and made him more dangerous. And then I knew he was going back to “addiction,” even before he got caught again. But the truth was that I didn’t want to be in relationship with a manipulator, a liar, a cheater, a psychologically abusive person.

Addiction Therapy and Its Failures: Sixth Example of Abuse

Nadira: So I filed for divorce.

Anne: Yeah, I hear that all the time. Time and time again, women tell me their story about how to deal with their addict husband and he went to addiction therapy or abuse cessation therapy. It was not only a waste of time and money, but he actually got worse. So it was like paying $50,000 to make him worse. So that is the sixth example of covert emotional abuse, there’s no resolution.

They give you the impression that they’re going to get help, But then they use that proximity to you and their promise to you that they’re going to change as a way to continue to exploit you.

Nadira: It was traumatizing, because here I had all this hope for help. And it ended up being more dangerous for our family in the long run. And yet, I believe the people at treatment had good intentions. I think it may work for someone, I don’t know. But in our case, it really upped his pathology, and he’s that much more dangerous.

Anne: For women wondering if their husband is addicted to this, when do you start to recognize it’s abuse?

Recognizing Abuse Through the Podcast

Nadira: Well, I’ll be honest, Anne, it’s been listening to your podcast. My therapist recommended your podcast to me. I’ve only been listening to your podcast for six months. So it’s only been the last six months, and it’s been a complete paradigm shift for me. And it’s actually totally changed my life.

This is why: when it was sex addiction, there is this idea that he’s a sick person and needs empathy. It’s just a sick person who has like cancer, for example. And so that’s how we treated it as a family. In the meantime, he’s still doing horrific things to the children. And so it was listening to every one of these podcasts. It really made my whole paradigm shift and go, you know what? It’s not addiction. It’s just an extremely abusive, I believe sociopath is what I believe he is.

He lacks empathy, which allows him to do horrific things to his family and children. Like introduce his children to prostitutes with a smile on his face. On a regular basis, he would become aroused around the children when playing with them. And not when they physically touched each other. What I mean is, like, they weren’t body on body. He would just become aroused.

And that was something I had addressed before he ever got caught in full blown addiction with prostitutes. I had been talking to our pastor, to our counselors, and everyone was like, that’s weird. But you know, they would just tell him, like, get away from the children. But that had been going on for years.

Covert emotional Abuse Impacts on Children

Nadira: Since our two oldest children are four years old and two years old, he would be aroused playing with the children. I never caught child abuse material, but I’d only caught him using exploitative material twice. And they were like four years apart. We had covenant eyes and all that, but he is a master manipulator. He lived a whole double life. I will tell you, everyone who found out our story in our friend group was like, he’s the last person I ever expected. He was always the pastor’s best friend.

Anne: That’s why they’re so dangerous. When I talk to people about how use is abusive. If you catch them, you don’t know what else is going on. They’re not going to tell you.

Nadira: They only admit what they get caught with. Even if it’s “just pornography,” unless you’ve agreed on that in your relationship. That is abuse. That’s lying and coercion. That’s manipulating. I want to read you this quick, from the Domestic Violence Victims Handbook. I picked it up at Children’s Services. So it describes abuse, right? And under the different headings, there’s like coercion, making the victim feel guilty, pushing the victim into decisions, sulking, manipulating children and other family members.

Always insisting on being right, making impossible rules and punishing the victim for breaking them. Talks about emotional withdrawal, economic control. A lot of these behaviors described in this are exactly what I went through and what our children went through and still go through. And yet, he’s not a physically abusive person. He does it all with a smile.

He spent all our money

Nadira: I was told, and I know I’m not alone in this. That if I would be more loving and kinder, and there’s a passage in 1 Peter 3 that talks about submitting without a word, That he would be a more loving husband.

The purpose of abuse is to silence your victim. It silenced me. I literally felt like I was dying inside, and he went off the rails. When he got caught, like really caught, we were broke because he had spent all our money on women. So me trying to do whatever it takes to save my marriage hurt me in the long run. Because literally at the end of the day, we were broke. He had destroyed everything. He had abused our children.

If we’re friends and you come to me and say, I’m being abused. I want to help you get help and get to a safe place. But if you come to me and say, you know,there’s a whole different approach. And your safety is not the main concern, which is crazy to me. The main concern is him. Which is just enabling him to, like in our case, up his pathology and become more dangerous.

So your podcast has made a huge difference to me. It’s changed everything, because instead of treating it like addiction and all the ways I was taught. Because I went to Al Anon for years and stuff like that. I am treating it like, no, we are victims, he’s an abuser, and we need to be safe.

The Need for Safety & Protection

Nadira: And we are currently in court over custody issues. He’s lost complete custody of our oldest. We’re trying to free the younger children from the abuse. It’s a totally different perspective, because I don’t treat it like an addiction, and he just needs help. I actually don’t believe there’s help for him. I believe he’s a sociopath and that literally we just need to get safe to a safe place.

Anne: Even if there was some kind of help for him. The point is still the same. If the person isn’t safe, it doesn’t matter if they can become safe or not. They’re not currently safe, period. We need to protect ourselves. With your ex, I tend to agree with you. He’s never going to change, but if he could, hypothetically, it would not matter.

We still need to protect ourselves, because he’s not safe. That is the most fundamental thing that most people don’t understand. They think if somebody can become safe, we don’t need to protect ourselves. And instead, we need to be patient, kind, and loving. And I’m like, no, no, no, no. It doesn’t matter if they can change or not. That’s not the issue. The issue is I need to protect myself now because they’re not safe now, period.

And that’s why I put together Clarity After Betrayal workshop.

Anne: In your case, you filed for divorce to protect yourself. And I’m so sorry it’s still a struggle to keep your children safe. That is such a common problem.

Faith and Misguided Counsel for covert emotional abuse

Anne: After what you’ve been through. Knowing what you know now, what insights could you share with women in your same situation?

Nadira: My faith had a lot to do, I believe, with a lot of the decisions I made. And God does not value marriage over my relationship with God. And that seems like a very obvious point. But I kept feeling like the counsel I received from pastors and lay people was that I needed to do whatever it takes, including extreme abuse, to stay married and keep a family together.

And yet, my children endured more abuse because I was trying to please God in that way. And marriage in many ways in some churches or communities of faith is held above a woman and children’s safety, emotional and mental well-being. Because, you know, that kind of abuse long term, I got to really desperate places.

I got to places where I didn’t want to live anymore. It took me to those places. I believe everything happens for a reason. But I can’t imagine what my life would have been like if I would have gotten out of that abuse a long time ago.

The hard thing though is that Sodom and Gomorrah looked evil, and so did the Egyptians, right? But in our case, he looked, like literally, the best guy ever.

The Broader Impact of exploitative Material

Nadira: The thing that’s discounted or not talked about a ton, and you do a good job of talking about it here. Is, yeah, okay, let’s say he is just looking at it behind your back, lying to you and coercing and manipulating you. Well, what are the effects of that on the family? It doesn’t happen in a black hole by itself. It’s not an isolated event. It affects how he treats you and the children. It affects how he sees you and the children.

And It affects so many areas of your life, your time, your money, it’s not an isolated thing. It affects everyone. My ex-husband getting aroused around our children. And he would grab our boy’s testicles. I told counselors, and guess what? There’s not been one report about it. No one’s done anything about it. He’s told them because when he “was in recovery,” all that was out in the open. I mean, we probably told ten therapists. I don’t know if you’ve heard of the Milton Magnus model. We did that too.

Anne: Oh, I’m so sorry. We’ve heard horror stories here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery from women talking about addiction therapists. But we’ve also heard horror stories from abuse recovery therapists as well.

Nadira: Well, one of the reasons you need to get safe right now, I’ve learned from you, is that when he is abusive, there’s so much that you don’t even realize is covert emotional abuse. Because it’s all foggy. In my opinion, you need separation so you can begin to see more clearly.

Addiction treatment promises & Hopes

Nadira: Like with children who have been abused, let’s say it is a father, uncle or grandfather, like a relative. That maybe the family wants them to see eventually again. They’ll advise the parents, like, that the child needs to not be in a relationship with that person for at least a year. They need to literally get physically away from the abuser. So they can get clear on what happened.

I still can’t see clearly what’s going on. I mean, believe it or not, in the horrors of our story, I still wanted the marriage and a family. Because there are pieces that I love. After all, I married him, right?

Anne: Me too. No woman wants a divorce.

Nadira: But then addiction treatment made all these promises and hopes. And then my ex-husband was like a star treatment performer, so I had all this hope too. I’m well versed in addiction, because we’ve had so many experts that did so many models. And we’ve used polygraphs. We went to a really reputable treatment center, et cetera, et cetera. And you know, the whole thing about addiction is that he’s sort of a victim himself of his compulsive behavior and can’t stop.

We don’t ever put that same label on a domestic violence person. In other words, we don’t say to someone who physically abuses their family members, oh, well, you can’t stop and it’s compulsive. You don’t have the power to stop that. We expect them to stop that behavior. Or they will go to jail.

Covert emotional abuse: Empathy For Addiction

Nadira: With addiction, we don’t expect them to necessarily stop. There’s a lot of empathy and a lot of just like, well, do your best and you know, keep coming back. But we don’t put that same kind of pressure on addiction. We treat it as a addiction, that it’s a problem that they’re powerless over. However, if it’s domestic abuse, it’s completely different. I think there’s a huge disconnect.

Anne: Yeah, at the beginning, you read a brochure from a domestic violence shelter outlining these behaviors. So there’s a huge disconnect between the addiction industrial complex and abuse experts, because the addiction industrial complex does not recognize it as abuse. And then one of the reasons for that disconnect, apart from the fact that they know squat about abuse, is that abusers are manipulative.

And when they get caught. They have a “reason” for why they did it. They say things like I’m so broken, or I was abused as a kid. We all know someone who was abused as a kid, and they’re not an abuser. It is a lie that it caused him to be abusive. He chose to be abusive. And the addiction industry has decided to take these lies at face value. And they’ve made an entire industry around it. I mean, you and I felt shame. We felt a ton of shame.

But we didn’t abuse our own children. There are no excuses for this. They are too unsafe for their wife and children, the end. Like it does not have to be this complicated. It is just abuse. And he hides it because it’s covert emotional abuse.

The Addiction Model doesn’t Protect victims

Nadira: It doesn’t have to be so complicated. He lied to me. He manipulated, and it affected our whole lives. I mean, it’s totally affected our socioeconomic status. Everything’s changed in our life, and our children have been abused. And yet, he’s considered a addict, not an abuser.

Anne: And that’s wrong. That’s why I started podcasting. And that’s why I’m on this mission. I want to educate women about abuse. If you’re in a relationship with an active user, he is abusive. And you are a victim of his abuse. I’ve interviewed so many women, and they tell me over and over again, the behaviors they are experiencing. They’re all things that are easily identifiable as abuse by abuse experts.

And after interviewing all these women over the years, I know personally that the addiction model is not protecting victims of abuse. It is not.

Nadira: Well, if I had your podcast 10 years ago, I would have had tools to say, no, this is not about he said, she said. Or how do we love each other better? Or the five love languages or any of that. I married an abuser. I don’t know about you, but I grew up thinking, if you’re married to an abusive man, he hits you and yells at you. But mine’s the most subversive type. If you’re a listener and you can relate to me in that. You know, he didn’t really smack me around. I have no bruises or broken fingers. He didn’t yell at me.

Therapists & Clergy Failures

Nadira: He was aggressive and argumentative. He lied to me, manipulated and coerced me. He told me at one point, true story, that he was always four steps ahead of me. Four, think about that. Think about being four steps ahead of someone. They do this, I do this, they do this, I do this, they do this, I do this, they do this, I do this.

That’s insane, if I had that, I could have identified it. Because again, I was married to Mr. Nice Guy, Mr. I have a smile on my face while I’m getting aroused with the children. The effects on our children and family have been grotesque. It’s really bad, right?

Anne: Yeah, it’s horrific. You have been through so much. Not just his abuse, but all the abuse from the therapists who were not helping. And clergy who were not protecting you. I’m so sorry. I’m so glad that you found my podcast.

Nadira: So this has been monumental for me. Because we spent thousands of dollars, tons of time, and just every resource trying to help my ex-husband recover from addiction. It was the wrong path, honestly. But with that, your podcast and listening to the guests on your podcast have helped me wake up to this is just an abusive person. And to treat the whole thing from a different perspective.

One of the things about your podcast, you know, it’s called Betraya Trauma Recovery. So I’ve recommended it to several friends who have been abused. But everyone thinks it’s about just betrayal, right? And I tell everyone it’s not, but that’s the thing. I think about it a lot, by the way.

exploitative Material as a covert emotional Abuse Issue

Nadira: Pornography, you know, is it freedom of choice or just abuse? Because that’s the big thing about it. People say it’s a first amendment thing, right? Like it’s freedom of speech. But if everybody came together, you and everybody came together. And talked about, in our culture, we’re allowing this abusive, destructive, national health crisis. We literally have a national health crisis on our hands. The masses aren’t educated.

Anne: Everywhere I go, I say it is an abuse issue. It’s not a first amendment rights issue. or an addiction issue. It’s not a sex issue. It is an abuse issue. It always needs to be addressed from an abuse perspective. When I started Betrayal Trauma Recovery in my area, all the women dealing with their husband’s use were labeled as having betrayal trauma.

And so part of what I wanted to do in labeling this podcast and the organization Betrayal Trauma Recovery was take that term and turn it into what it really is. We are healing from abuse. So I’m trying to make the term mean what it should mean. Which is when you are recovering from betrayal trauma, you are recovering from abuse. And the reason you’re recovering from abuse is because any betrayal of this type is abuse.

Finding the Right Path to Recovery

Anne: It could be called abuse recovery. But so many people right now don’t see it as abuse. And so instead, they say, Oh, she’s suffering from betrayal trauma. Then they go down the addiction route. And I wanted to be like, anyone looking for stuff on betrayal trauma, or going down the addiction route, I wanted them to find this podcast. So that they could get the truth, instead of spending years and hundreds of thousands of dollars going down the wrong path.

So I wanted to make Betrayal Trauma Recovery the place where any woman emotionally or psychologically abused. Or the victim of coercion could come and get the help she needed. Thank you for sharing your story today. We appreciate your insights.