Are generational labels dead weight?

This week—after many technical difficulties and a nearly-forgotten anniversary—Kurt talks with organizational culture expert Jessica Kriegel about generational divides and why they are ultimately pointless and unproductive for both personal and professional growth. Jessica introduces her “culture equation” framework, revealing three critical elements that drive revenue growth and how missing these elements can lead to stagnation.

A key focus of the conversation is the damaging impact of generational stereotypes in the workplace and how ageism, in any form, prevents us from recognizing people’s unique talents. Through compelling examples, Jessica explains how these stereotypes dangerously influence workplace practices—and what we can do to avoid them.

Tim is back from anniversary-dinner bliss for this week’s grooving session, where he and Kurt reflect on the key themes from Kurt’s conversation with Jessica. The duo offers insights on the power of thoughtful communication and how being intentional with our words can shape organizational culture.

Whether you’re a Boomer, Gen Z’er, or anything in between (sorry Gen X and Milennials), this episode has all you need to challenge stereotypes and start bridging those generational gaps.

© 2024 Behavioral Grooves

[0:00] Generational stereotypes and corporate culture

[6:20] Speed round with Jessica Kriegel

[9:10] Generational labels: a perspective

[23:25] The “Culture Equation” and it’s impact on success

[28:41] The importance of leadership for shaping culture

[36:52] How to align purpose, strategy, and culture

[42:25] Grooving Session: Bridging generational divides with leadership

© 2024 Behavioral Grooves

Unfairly Labeled: How Your Workplace Can Benefit From Ditching Generational Stereotypes

How to get people to give a sh*t | Jessica Kriegel | TEDxStGeorgeStudio

Is Generational Prejudice Seeping into Your Workplace?

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Atmosphere - “Sunshine"

The Beatles - "Eight Days a Week"

This week, we dive into a thought-provoking conversation with Bob McKinnon, host of the Attribution podcast and author of America's Dreaming. Bob unpacks the complex factors that determine success and failure, drawing from his own experiences and broader societal influences. He challenges the "fundamental attribution error," where we often credit personal effort over external factors, and how this bias can distort our perceptions of ourselves and others. Through powerful stories, Bob discusses how systemic barriers and limiting beliefs shape life outcomes, emphasizing the need to recognize the roles of luck, privilege, and social connections in our narratives.

Bob, Kurt and Tim explore the ethics of marketing, the overlooked influence of luck in success, and how reframing our stories can foster empathy. With insights into everything from historical injustices to the power of music and storytelling, Bob offers listeners a fresh perspective on the importance of compassionate curiosity in bridging social divides by creating more inclusive conversations. Tune in to discover how understanding attribution can change the way we see the world—and ourselves.

© 2024 Behavioral Grooves

[0:00] Intro

[6:03] Speed round

[9:18] Factors contributing to success/failure

[13:53] Attribution and how it affects perceptions and behaviors

[19:21] Attribution error and its impact on behavior and success

[29:30] Success, privilege, and race in America

[35:00] Land grants, race, and attribution

[46:35] Empathy, storytelling, and judging less to improve relationships

[54:00] Music, identity, and belonging

[1:00:29] Grooving session: Attribution and luck in success

© 2024 Behavioral Grooves

The Monopoly Experiment

The Random Factor by Mark Rank

America’s Surprising Views on Inequality

American Dream Score - Bob’s Quiz

America’s Dreaming - Bob McKinnon

Neil Diamond - I am…I said

Tracy Chapman - Fast Car

Luke Combs - Fast Car

This week on Behavioral Grooves, things get personal – or at least professionally personal – as Kurt and Tim are joined by Becky Frayer, founder and CEO of Behavioral Fusion. Becky shares valuable tips and strategies for overcoming challenges in large organizations and explores the practical applications of behavioral science in the business world.

Throughout their discussion, Kurt, Tim, and Becky emphasize the importance of applying behavioral science practices in the workplace. They explain how storytelling and reassurance can be powerful tools for navigating corporate environments. Through personal anecdotes and real-world examples, the trio reveals how to overcome common work obstacles and integrate healthy behavioral science practices into your company’s everyday routine.

Whether you're a skeptic or an embracer of behavioral science, this episode offers valuable insights and practical advice on using behavioral science principles to drive business growth and improve decision-making. Tune in to hear about the fascinating journey of applying behavioral science in corporate America and gain new perspectives on consumer behavior and organizational dynamics.

© 2024 Behavioral Grooves

[2:42] Intro and speed round

[6:42] Consumer behavior and decision-making in the pharmaceutical industry

[13:30] Using behavioral science to understand consumer behavior

[17:56] Applying behavioral science in business

[27:51] Challenges and insights: applying behavioral science at work

[33:22] The importance of understanding human behavior

[37:54] Desert island music

[40:59] Grooving Session: Using behavioral science insights to drive business success

© 2024 Behavioral Grooves

Dunning-Kruger Effect

Behavioral Fusion

Building Behavioral Science Capabilities in Your Company

Michael Jackson, “Thriller”

Sister Hazel, “Change Your Mind”

The web was intended to be a way of creating genuine connections with others, but we’re all sadly familiar with the detrimental ways it can be used to spread misinformation. A team of experts at Prosocial Design Network is now using evidence-based behavioral insights to redesign social media interactions, to bring out the best of us online.

We’re honored to be joined on this episode by two of the designers of the Prosocial Design Network - John Fullot and Philipp Lorentz-Spreen. John Fallot is a user experience and graphic designer based in the New York City Metro Area. He co-founded the Prosocial Design Network with colleague Joel Putnam in late 2019, in order to better explore ways that the web could be optimized for prosocial behaviors.

Dr. Philipp Lorenz-Spreen is a research scientist based in Berlin, Germany. His work focuses on decision making online, and finding ways to improve online democratic discourse through environmental interventions.

There are certainly no silver bullets in the effort of minimizing the spread of misinformation. But this conversation gives us hope and provides some insights for everyone on how to approach social media in a better way.

We encourage you to check out the work of the Prosocial Design Network and browse through the interventions they are currently testing: www.prosocialdesign.org.

(3:34) Welcome and speed round questions.

(6:41) Can we inoculate ourselves from misinformation online?

(8:38) Redesigning the world wide web against misinformation.

(13:28) Is misinformation on social media really threatening democracy?

(16:50) Asymmetry of power between the platform and the users.

(24:15) John and Phillip’s favorite Prosocial Design intervention: frictionless designs and "thank you" buttons.

(28:33) Which social media sites are being proactive with interventions?

(30:47) What is the obligation of behavioral scientists?

(37:11) What music do John and Phillip listen to?

(42:11) Grooving Session with Kurt on Tim on the Prosocial Design Network.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

Prosocial Design Network: www.prosocialdesign.org

Prosocial Design Network Slack: www.prosocialdesign.org/community

Prosocial Design Network donations: www.prosocialdesign.org/donate

Maxwell House commercial with Margaret Hamilton: https://youtu.be/tUnNDEygBjA\

Discord: https://discord.com/ 

Lorenz-Spreen, P., Lewandowsky, S., Sunstein, C.R. et al. How behavioural sciences can promote truth, autonomy and democratic discourse online. Nat Hum Behav (2020): https://doi.org/10.1038/s41562-020-0889-7

Lorenz-Spreen, P., Geers, M., Pachur, T. et al. Boosting people’s ability to detect microtargeted advertising. Sci Rep (2021): https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-021-94796-z

Episode 10, Kal Turnbull Reddit superstar, Changing the World One View at a Time: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/changing-the-world-one-view-at-a-time-with-reddit-superstar-kal-turnbull/ 

Nir Eyal “Hooked: How to Build Habit-Forming Products”: https://amzn.to/3XeWgMM 

Episode 303, From Distracted To Focused: Nir Eyal’s Secrets On How To Be Indistractable: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/nir-eyal-how-to-be-indistractable/ 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon Page: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves 

Kat Cunning “Could Be Good”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpFh4dnKPKs 

Pashanim “Airwaves”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5wsXLmWhCM&ab_channel=PashanimNulldreinull 

Would you help change a stranger’s tire? How about if they offered you $20? Or, what if instead of money, they offered you some candy? 

We often think these types of exchanges are financial in nature - but this study explored how there is actually a different type of exchange going on here - a social exchange. When we help a friend move some furniture, invite friends over for dinner, help a stranger out who is in need - these are social exchanges in a social market, one that is separate from the financial market. And what’s even more interesting is that if you bring money into the social exchange, it falls apart.

James Heyman and Dan Ariely explored this phenomena in their landmark study called, “Effort for Payment: A Tale of Two Markets” and is the basis for Kurt and Tim taking a deep look in this Groove Track. 

Listen to find out the backstory to the study and the implications from the findings. You can also watch a special video recording of this Groove Track with Kurt and Tim on the Behavioral Grooves YouTube Channel.

Heyman, J., & Ariely, D. (2004). Effort for Payment: A Tale of Two Markets. Psychological Science: https://doi.org/10.1111/j.0956-7976.2004.00757.x 

Behavioral Grooves on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkmH8St_nsA&ab_channel=BehavioralGrooves 

We find it easy to condemn wrongdoers, after they’ve been called out. But why do we often let unethical behavior occur around us, and not speak out? If we take a step back from the idea of there being one “bad apple”, we realize that with any wrongdoing, there is a collection of people who have been complicit in the behavior. Why is there so much fear about speaking up?

“We've created too much fear in speaking up, when in fact, there's so much value in avoiding harm in that process.“ ~ Max Bazerman

Our fascinating conversation with Max Bazerman aligns with the publication of his excellent new book, “Complicit: How We Enable the Unethical and How to Stop”. Our discussion is rich with insight, in particular we delve into the reason that we hold people, including ourselves, more responsible for errors of commission than omission. So how can we avoid errors of omission?

Max Bazerman is a world famous behavioral scientist. He is the Jesse Isidor Straus Professor of Business Administration at the Harvard Business School and the Co-Director of the Center for Public Leadership at the Harvard Kennedy School. He is the author, co-author, or co-editor of twenty books and over 200 research articles and chapters. His awards include an honorary doctorate from the University of London and both the Distinguished Educator Award and the Distinguished Scholar Award from the Academy of Management. 

Over the years, Max has brought focus to the areas of decision making and ethics. Having been on the show before, we were delighted to welcome Max back to Behavioral Grooves once again. We hope you enjoy this episode of Behavioral Grooves. If you do, please write a review or share with a friend on Apple Podcasts. Thanks, listeners!

(3:16) What does it mean to be complicit?

(13:02) How errors of omission play an under-rated role in complicit behavior.

(18:21) How to move away from the idea that there is one bad apple?

(21:48) Unethical behavior goes unnoticed when it happens gradually.

(23:14) Do we legitimize unethical behavior in our leaders?

(25:51) Do employees need to be made to care about unethical behavior or do they need to demand ethical behavior from employees?

(27:26) When complicitors are engaged in illegal behavior.

(29:29) How can we hold people accountable for their bad behavior?

(37:33) Max’s personal story of being complicit.

(39:31) Are there new norms on data collection that can eliminate fraud?

(42:23) Dolly Chugh’s question for Max.

(46:11) How can we all become better people?

(49:05) What music does Max enjoy?

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

Max Bazerman’s book: “Complicit: How We Enable the Unethical and How to Stop”: https://amzn.to/3UKjfNJ 

Episode 196, Living Happier By Making the World Better with Max Bazerman: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/living-happier-by-making-the-world-better-with-max-bazerman/ 

Episode 325, Dolly Chugh: Can You Unlearn History And Still Love Your Country? With Dolly Chugh: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/dolly-chugh/ 

Bobo Doll Experiments: https://www.simplypsychology.org/bobo-doll.html 

Episode 247, Stanford Prison Experiment, 50 Years On: What Have We Really Learnt? With Dr Philip Zimbardo: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/stanford-prison-experiment/ 

Heroic Imagination Society: https://www.heroicimagination.org/ 

Bob Dylan “Blowin’ in the wind”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMFj8uDubsE

How we think about the world can drastically influence how we navigate through it. Cutting edge research proves that reframing our mindset to be more positive, even in the light of negative events, can significantly alter how our brain responds.

Discussing one of our favorite books of the year, author David Robson explains how our expectations can secretly meddle with almost every aspect of our lives. And by understanding their effects more thoroughly, we can unlock some powerful ways of living a more positive life.

This is a special episode, not only because we are talking with David Robson about his fantastic book “The Expectation Effect: How Your Mindset Can Change Your World”, but we are co-hosting this episode with one of our favorite podcasters, Christian Hunt of Human Risk Podcast. And just to top it off, the interview is recorded in none other than the iconic Abbey Road Studios in London!

Now that your expectations are set suitably high, we hope we don’t disappoint you with what we think is a fantastic episode of Behavioral Grooves! If Behavioral Grooves Podcast continues to meet your listening expectations please consider helping our ongoing production costs with a Patreon subscription. Many thanks!

(4:20) Welcome and speed round questions.

(7:07) What is the expectation effect?

(8:09) Why the placebo effect doesn’t work on everyone.

(9:36) Our stress response and fluctuations in our cortisol levels.

(13:13) Negative stress mindset vs. positive stress mindset.

(15:00) Does the expectation effect change the way we feel?

(18:16) Is reframing a key component of the expectation effect?

(19:35) David’s journey into exploring expectations.

(22:26) How our mindset can contribute to the outcome of our diet or exercise habit.

(28:41) How marketing sets our expectations.  

(33:04) The brain is a prediction machine.

(36:32) Why critical thinking is a tool to manage our expectations.

(39:30) Are you a “good” sleeper or a “bad” sleeper?

(42:35) Being a pessimistic vs an optimistic person.

(45:45) The ethics of expectations - genetic testing.

(50:06) What music David is listening to and our expectations of musicians.

(55:47) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim discussing The Expectation Effect.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

David Robson: https://davidrobson.me/ 

David Robson’s Book, The Expectation Effect: How Your Mindset Can Change Your World: https://amzn.to/3DVOXSD 

Episode 307, Groove Track | Mind Over Milkshakes: Why Expectations Matter A Lot: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/mind-over-milkshakes-groove-track/ 

Nocebo Effect: https://www.mindtools.com/blog/expert-interview-blog-david-robson/ 

Human Risk Podcast with Christian Hunt: https://www.human-risk.com/podcast 

Pygmalion effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_effect 

Penolepe Fitzgerald: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penelope_Fitzgerald 

Martin Amos: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Amis 

Episode 155, John Bargh: Dante, Coffee and the Unconscious Mind: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/john-bargh-unconscious-mind/ 

Episode 75: Jonathan Mann: Integrating Behavioral Science into User Experience: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/jonathan-mann-integrating-behavioral-science-into-user-experience/ 

Episode 235: Make Choice Rewarding: Behavioral Insights in Marketing with Matthew Willcox: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/marketing-matthew-willcox/ 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon:  https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Judy Collins “Spellbound”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnTh7TkFK1U 

Cheating is all around us. Is it on the rise? It appears to be so, but why? Christian Hunt, the founder and host of Human Risk Podcast, and Koen Smets, a London-based behavioral scientist, discuss the dodgy travails of the human condition using examples of cheating in chess, walleye fishing, cycling, and even among behavioral scientists. 

Join us for an invigorating discussion on why we cheat - and we all do - from Abbey Road Studios in London. 

Human Risk Podcast: https://www.human-risk.com/podcast 

Koen Smets on Medium: https://koenfucius.medium.com/

Fishing Scandal: https://youtu.be/xSta3wFK15Y 

Chess Scandal: https://www.npr.org/2022/10/05/1126915049/hans-niemann-is-accused-of-cheating-in-more-than-100-chess-games-hes-playing-tod 

Bike Race Scandal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_doping 

DataColada on Bad Behavioral Science: https://datacolada.org/98 

Learning ALL the parts of our country’s history can be very uncomfortable. Not just in the US, but around the world, there are usually very dark parts of our past that many of us would rather brush over because it doesn’t marry up with the sterilized version of what we were taught when we were younger.

While many of us are willing to take the next step, to unlearn our history and dismantle the unjust systems that our forebears built, few of us actually know how to go about it effectively. Our wonderful guest on this episode, Dolly Chugh admits to her own story of how she inadvertently taught her kids a polished version of history. And in her own personal reckoning around this experience, wrote the book that she found herself needing to read. And we are delighted to be talking with her about “A More Just Future: Psychological Tools for Reckoning with Our Past and Driving Social Change” because it is now a valuable tool for all of us.

Dolly Chugh is a Harvard educated, award-winning social psychologist at the NYU Stern School of Business, where she is an expert researcher in the psychology of good people. We’ve previously had Dolly on the show but we are thrilled to welcome her back to discuss her brand new book.

(2:07) How Little House On The Prairie led Dolly to write A More Just Future.

(9:24) Behavioral History - the new way of looking at the past?

(11:10) Why do we find it so difficult to talk about the dark parts of our history?

(14:08) How “dressing for the weather” can help us deal with our emotional responses.

(17:56) What other countries can teach the US about our response to history..

(19:37) How a Paradox Mindset can help us sit with uncomfortable truths.

(23:28) How does Dolly feel about America after writing the book?

(26:12) How do we move forward to a more just future?

(29:28) Unlearning our past is simple but not easy.

(31:49) Why is George Takei a gritty patriot?

(37:51) What is belief grief?

(39:42) How psychological distance creates a “long time ago illusion”.

(41:37) Using music to anchor us in time.

(44:52) What question Dolly would ask Max Bazerman? 

(47:54) Grooving Session with Tim and Kurt discussing A More Just Future.

If you are a regular listener to Behavioral Grooves, please consider donating to our work through Patreon. Writing a review of the podcast is also a great way to share your appreciation with other listeners. 

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

Dolly’s book “A More Just Future: Psychological Tools for Reckoning with Our Past and Driving Social Change “: https://amzn.to/3Cgs9eq

Episode 230, How Good People Fight Bias with Dolly Chugh: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-good-people-fight-bias/ 

Dolly’s TED Talk: “How to let go of being a "good" person — and become a better person”: https://www.ted.com/talks/dolly_chugh_how_to_let_go_of_being_a_good_person_and_become_a_better_person?language=en

Episode 280, Do We Judge Others By The Way They Speak? | Katherine Kinzler PhD: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/judging-by-the-way-others-speak/ 

Historiography: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historiography

Dan Gilbert “Stumbling on Happiness”: https://amzn.to/3zdV4iD 

Episode 321, Robert Livingston: How To Have A Conversation About Racism: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/a-conversation-about-racism/

Angela Duckworth “Grit: The Power of Passion and Perseverance”: https://amzn.to/3suuRZh 

“Construal-Level Theory of Psychological Distance” Yaacov Trope and Nira Liberman (2011): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3152826/ 

Max Bazerman “Complicit: How We Enable the Unethical and How to Stop”: https://amzn.to/3TSE7lB 

Episode 232: Katy Milkman: How to Make Healthy Habits that Actually Last: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/katy-milkman-habits-that-last/ 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Bob Marley “Buffalo Soldier”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5FCdx7Dn0o 

Hamilton “Alexander Hamilton”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhinPd5RRJw 

In the Heights “No Me Diga”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrFH772ytzM 

Louis Armstrong “Hello Dolly”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7N2wssse14 

People don’t hate change, they hate the ambiguity that comes with change. Organizational psychologist, Dr Debbie Sutherland PhD, shares the tools we can use, both in business settings and in our personal lives, to overcome our discomfort with ambiguity and to thrive in uncertain environments. 

Debbie is an academic executive coach with both a masters degree and doctorate degree from Columbia University. She has recently written a well researched book, The Business of Ambiguity: Demystify the Unknown with Five Key Thinking and Behavior Strategies, which gives business leaders a blueprint for making better decisions in ambiguous situations. After all, ambiguous and uncertain situations aren’t going away, so we might as well figure out how to deal with them!

Thank you to all our listeners of Behavioral Grooves, we enjoy sharing unique insights with you. If you have enjoyed this episode, please consider writing a review on your podcast player. Or you can contribute financially to our work through our Patreon page.

(2:31) Welcome and speed round questions.

(5:35) Why do people hate ambiguity?

(9:40) How frustration led to Debbie’s research on ambiguity?

(11:25) The value of critical reflection.

(16:11) How journaling can help you find patterns in behavior.

(21:09) Mental models of ambiguity.

(23:02) Reflection IN action vs. reflection ON action.

(25:44) The ambiguity of THE dress.

(29:18) The Ambiguity Mindset – intuitive or learned?

(30:26) Where do leaders make mistakes with managing ambiguity? 

(38:25) What music would Debbie take to a desert island?

(43:04) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim on ambiguity.

Debbie Sutherland’s book “The Business of Ambiguity: Demystify the Unknown with Five Key Thinking and Behavior Strategies”: https://amzn.to/3MFuh3W 

The Business of Ambiguity: https://www.behaviorsinbusiness.com/ 

Groups Relations Conferences: https://www.tc.columbia.edu/organization-and-leadership/social-organizational-psychology/degree-info/group-relations-conferences/ 

Gestalt Psychology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestalt_psychology 

Dr Pamela Booth research on Behavior Analysis: https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Behaviour-Analysis%3A-Catalyst-for-Perspective-and-of-Booth/d90d2da66a769d574e99a5dcf6f5ced41a689ee1 

David Schon, The Reflective Practitioner: https://graysreadinggroup.wordpress.com/2012/12/18/the-reflective-practitioner-by-donald-schon/ 

Episode 178, Kwame Christian: On Compassionate Curiosity, Social Justice Conversations, and Cinnamon Toast Crunch: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/kwame-christian-on-compassionate-curiosity-social-justice-conversations-and-cinnamon-toast-crunch/ 

Episode 323, Quit: Why We Do It Too Late and How To Get Better At It with Annie Duke: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/quit-with-annie-duke/ 

Episode 322, Chuck Wisner: Four Steps To More Effective Conversations: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/more-effective-conversations/ 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Eminem “Fall”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfTbHITdhEI 

Vivaldi “Four Seasons”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRxofEmo3HA

Walking away is never easy. Whether it’s quitting a job, a relationship or an expedition to the peak of Mount Everest, we have a real problem with knowing when to stop. And ironically, when we do quit, we often wish we’d done it earlier. So why do we find it so difficult to quit? Annie Duke addresses the psychological reasons that prevent us from quitting, and how we can overcome them. 

Annie needs little introduction to the Behavioral Grooves Podcast as she is now the only guest to have been on the show 4 times! Most people know of her as a poker champion and bestselling author but we are lucky enough to call her a friend. One of the reasons we are so fond of Annie is her ability to use relatable stories to explain the complex concepts around decision making. She has emerged as one of the leading thinkers in the field, and is truly an intellectual powerhouse. So we are thrilled to be talking to Annie about her excellent new book, “Quit: The Power of Knowing When to Walk Away”.

We don't like ambiguity. We don't like uncertainty. We keep chugging along, trying to accrue more certainty. So that we know that it's the right decision....As Richard Thaler, Nobel laureate said to me; “the only time that we were really willing to quit is when it's not a decision anymore.”

~ Annie Duke, Episode 323

In this episode, Annie touches on key themes around quitting. We talk about the reasons we find quitting so difficult, why mantras like “quit while you’re ahead” are complete bunkum, and what techniques we can use to ensure we quit at the right time. Annie also sets the record straight on the myth that grit and quitting are opposite sides of the same coin. The concepts actually overlap.

We hope you enjoy this episode (and didn’t quit!). To help others find our podcast content, we would be grateful if you would write us a quick review on your podcast player. It helps us get noticed by other folk who are interested in podcasts about behavioral science. Thank you, and we appreciate your help.

(5:36) Annie’s story of quitting and her personal frustration.

(12:39) Grit and quit are NOT polar opposites.

(22:53) What are some of the psychological aspects that make quitting hard?

(36:31) What is the difference between loss aversion and sure loss aversion?

(42:29) Why we shouldn’t quit while we’re ahead.

(49:10) Gut feel vs rational decisions.

(53:29) What Mount Everest can teach us about when to quit.

(1:03:36) The second way to help you quit – a quitting coach.

(1:10:44) The backstory of Barry Staw.

(1:20:40) Grooving Session with Tim and Kurt about quitting.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

“Quit: The Power of Knowing When to Walk Away”: https://amzn.to/3z47JEP 

“Thinking in Bets: Making Smarter Decisions When You Don't Have All the Facts”: https://amzn.to/3Vvaick 

Angela Duckworth book, “Grit: The Power of Passion and Perseverance”: https://amzn.to/3ECSLsS 

Episode 107, Rory Sutherland: The Opposite of a Good Idea is a Good Idea: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/rory-sutherland-the-opposite-of-a-good-idea-is-a-good-idea/ 

Maya Shankar: A Slight Change Of Plans Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/a-slight-change-of-plans/id1561860622 

Episode 310, Why You Can’t Find a Cab When It’s Raining – Groove Track: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/why-you-cant-find-cabs-in-the-rain/ 

Barry Staw: https://haas.berkeley.edu/faculty/staw-barry/ 

Episode 277, No Regrets? Really? Why Regrets Actually Bring Us Hope | Daniel H. Pink: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/why-regrets-bring-us-hope/ 

Episode 171, Self Control, Belonging, and Why Your Most Dedicated Employees Are the Ones To Watch Out For with Roy Baumeister: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/self-control-belonging-and-why-your-most-dedicated-employees-are-the-ones-to-watch-out-for-with-roy-baumeister/ 

Conversations are vital to our existence - after all, we talk with people every day. But have you ever dissected what makes a conversation effective? When we are more conscious of how we are talking with others, we can nurture more productive connections, and avoid common pitfalls that often derail our conversations.

In this episode, we explore the importance of conscious conversations, with author Chuck Wisner, whose new book The Art Of Conscious Conversations: Transforming How We Talk, Listen, and Interact is coming out in mid October 2022. Chuck’s insights are built on a fascinating mix of careers: from architect to personal coach, with a stop-off as a mediator at the Harvard Law Mediation Program. 

With Chuck, we discuss the four sequential stages to an effective conversation: 

• Storytelling
• Collaboration
• Creativity
• Commitment

We explore the role our identity plays in shaping the stories we tell ourselves, why leaders’ authority can make their voice louder, and how some of our best ideas happen when we are stimulating our creative minds.

“The stories we live by and tell ourselves and others are essential to our identity.” ~ Chuck Wisner

If you enjoy listening to Behavioral Grooves Podcast, please consider donating to our work through our Patreon page. We use all the donations to fund the production of the podcast. Thanks!

(2:31) Welcome and speed round questions.

(4:35) The stories we tell ourselves are central to our identity.

(5:34) The Art of Conscious Conversation Book.

(10:14) The first of the four types of conversations: storytelling.

(18:56) Collaboration, the second step of successful conversations.

(22:38) How re-engaging with our creative minds assists our conversations.

(28:56) Why commitment is the active part of a conversation.

(38:06) How music is part of Chuck’s life.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

The Art of Conscious Conversations: Transforming How We Talk, Listen, and Interact: https://amzn.to/3clNtGk  

Episode 178: Kwame Christian On Compassionate Curiosity, Social Justice Conversations, and Cinnamon Toast Crunch: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/kwame-christian-on-compassionate-curiosity-social-justice-conversations-and-cinnamon-toast-crunch/ 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves 

Joe Morello “Take 5 Drum Solo”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tTyTc6FjjU  

Delbert McClinton “Ain’t That Lovin’ You”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCN2og2kKdk  

Racism is solvable, but that doesn’t mean we will solve it. To close the gap between the probable and possible, we need to have meaningful conversations.

“Conversation is one of the most powerful ways to build knowledge, awareness, and empathy and ultimately, impact change.”

In his award winning book, “The Conversation: How Seeking and Speaking the Truth About Racism Can Radically Transform Individuals and Organizations”, Dr Robert Livingston PhD provides a compass and a roadmap for individuals and for organizational leaders to solve racism. As a leading Harvard social psychologist, he expertly combines his research and narrative for an audience who is eager to be part of the solution.

Robert talks with us about the lightbulb moment he realized storytelling was a powerful way to engage an audience. By building relationships and using narratives, you can change people’s behavior in a way that facts and graphs simply don’t.

Our conversation with Robert gives us the tools to firstly define racism and recognize its existence. We learn why motivated reasoning tries to protect us from the threat of addressing our own racism. But if we approach the painful conversations with a growth mindset, we can allow ourselves the grace to learn.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

(3:13) Welcome and speed round questions.

(4:23) Is racism a solvable problem?

(6:19) Why conversation is so crucial to overcoming racism.

(13:18) How The Press Model can help solve racism.

(19:47) Why are people in denial about racism?

(25:12) How to challenge the “I’m not a racist” relative?

(28:48) How to have a conversation about racism, rather than a debate. 

(36:20) Why do we confuse equity and equality?

(45:03) People are not as concerned about fairness as they are about winning.

(47:52) What music would Robert take to a desert island?

Robert Livingston's book “The Conversation: How Seeking and Speaking the Truth About Racism Can Radically Transform Individuals and Organizations”: https://amzn.to/3DdQZOc

Episode 232, Katy Milkman: How to Make Healthy Habits that Actually Last: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/katy-milkman-habits-that-last/ 

“Whites See Racism as a Zero-Sum Game That They Are Now Losing” Michael Norton and Samuel Sommers (2011): https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1745691611406922 

Carol Dweck “Mindset: The New Psychology of Success”: https://amzn.to/3SBhamm 

Amy Edmondson: https://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/profile.aspx?facId=6451 

Episode 178, Kwame Christian: On Compassionate Curiosity, Social Justice Conversations, and Cinnamon Toast Crunch: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/kwame-christian-on-compassionate-curiosity-social-justice-conversations-and-cinnamon-toast-crunch/ 

Episode 230, How Good People Fight Bias with Dolly Chugh: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-good-people-fight-bias/ 

Stevie Wonder “Songs In The Key of Life”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiG9eiwUpHo 

Miles Davis “So What”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqNTltOGh5c

How often do you question the 'facts' you encounter in everyday life?

This week, Alex Edmans, author of May Contain Lies, joins Kurt and Tim to question the world around us. They explore the significance of critical thinking and cognitive diversity, highlighting the value of diverse perspectives and evidence-based reasoning. They discuss the differences between facts and statements, the dangers of misleading inferences from evidence, and the impact of perception on communication.

Creating an environment where individuals can express their viewpoints freely is crucial. This includes fostering a culture where a devil’s advocate can provide critical feedback and considering alternative explanations to avoid confirmation bias in our everyday lives.

For a bit of fun (and for Tim too!), Alex explains his research on how music preferences can predict stock market trends and the challenge of separating emotional effects from fundamental factors. During their Grooving Session, Kurt and Tim encourage listeners to apply a scientific mindset when evaluating information and to promote cognitive diversity within their workspaces. Tune in to enhance your critical thinking skills, appreciate the nuances in decision-making, and learn how to foster a culture of scientific inquiry in your workplace and beyond.

© 2024 Behavioral Grooves

[5:07] Intro and speed round

[9:30] The importance of critical thinking and avoiding confirmation bias

[16:37] Misinformation and how it’s presented

[27:56] How to evaluate scientific claims by checking sources

[33:08] The importance of cognitive diversity

[42:07] Using music to predict stock market trends

[49:26] Grooving Session: Overcoming biases to make informed decisions

© 2024 Behavioral Grooves

Links

Alex Edmans ‘May Contain Lies: How Stories, Statistics, and Studies Exploit Our Biases - And What We Can Do About It’

Wason Selection Task

Sports Sentiment and Stock Returns

How Cognitive Biases Influence the Way You Think and Act

Earth, Wind, and Fire “September”

Fleetwood Mac “The Chain”

Close your eyes and visualize a horse. Most people can picture the outline of the body, the color of the horse and the unique features of the animal. But some people simply don’t see any image at all. This lack of a mind’s eye is known as aphantasia. 

To help explain exactly what aphantasia is, and how it can affect behavior, we talk with Professor Adam Zeman who actually helped identify and name the neurological condition. Adam has a medical degree and a PhD in philosophy from Oxford University. He’s been a lecturer and professor of cognitive and behavioral neurology and has published extensively on visual imagery and forms of amnesia occurring in epilepsy. Adam has also published an introduction to neurology for the general audiences called, A Portrait of the Brain. But the reason we are talking to Adam on this episode is about his research on our “minds eye”. He discusses how a lack of visual imagery (aphantasia) or overly vivid imagery (hyperphantasia) can be identified and what effects it has on our behavior. 

We often ask guests on the show about whether their work is influenced by “me-search”; something of particular interest to them personally. Well, this episode is a little bit of me-search for our own Kurt Nelson who himself has aphantasia. Join both Kurt and Tim as they both find out more about the recent research into the condition and how we should all be aware of how it affects people.

Thank you to all our listeners of Behavioral Grooves, we enjoy sharing unique insights with you. If you have enjoyed this episode, please consider writing a review on your podcast player. Or you can contribute financially to our work through our Patreon page: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves. 

(3:36) Welcome and speed round questions.

(5:15) How Adam discovered the condition aphantasia.

(10:30) How aphantasia can affect all the senses.

(12:45) The prevalence of aphantasia.

(15:38) The behavioral differences that are present with aphantasia.

(19:42) What careers suit people with a lack of mind’s eye?

(23:39) What causes aphantasia? 

(25:51) The differences between voluntary and involuntary visualization. 

(30:41) Visualization is an echo of vision. 

(35:21) What music Adam will take to a desert island.

(37:51) About The Mind’s Eye Project.

(42:49) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

Aphantasia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia 

Vividness of Visual Imagery Questionnaire (VVIQ): https://aphantasia.com/vviq/ 

Professor Adam Zeman: https://psychology.exeter.ac.uk/staff/profile/index.php?web_id=adam_zeman 

The Mind’s Eye Project: https://www.gla.ac.uk/research/az/cspe/projects/the-eyes-mind/ 

“Picture This? Some Just Can’t” by Carl Zimmer, 2015: https://carlzimmer.com/picture-this-some-just-cant-101/ 

Prosopagnosia: https://www.ninds.nih.gov/health-information/disorders/prosopagnosia#:~:text=Prosopagnosia%20is%20a%20neurological%20disorder,face%20blindness%20or%20facial%20agnosia.  

Hyperphantasia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperphantasia#:~:text=Hyperphantasia%20is%20the%20condition%20of,as%20vivid%20as%20real%20seeing%22. 

Ed Catmull: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Catmull 

Craig Venter: https://www.jcvi.org/about/j-craig-venter 

Blake Ross: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blake_Ross 

Think of a horse: https://aphantasia.com/think-of-a-horse/ 

David Gray “Sail Away”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oyBnvibWEY 

Bach “Cello Suite No.1 in G Major”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1prweT95Mo0 

Mendelssohn “Overture: The Hebrides”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdQyN7MYSN8 

“The primary source of unconscious priming…is your conscious experience.” Our consciousness is where we bring everything together, where we integrate and form a rich integration of our experience. This result is that this experience gets spread out to all the processes of the mind which is pivotal to how priming, an unconscious effect, actually works.

Dr John Bargh PhD is a researcher and professor at Yale University and is probably the leading researcher on behavioral priming and has been studying this topic for almost 40 years. Not only that but he is a long term friend of Behavioral Grooves Podcast.

In this episode with John, we explore with him both the past and future of priming as well as some of the controversies surrounding it. 

“The more important the goal, the more primable it is”

(4:36) Welcome and speed round questions.

(7:50) Why priming gets a bad rap.

(13:01) What exactly is a prime?

(16:17) Where does future research in priming need to go?

(19:46) How does priming differ from expectation theory and the placebo effect?

(22:33) How is framing not priming?

(24:07) What is the summation of experience?

(32:02) The stupid reason John went into social psychology.

(40:51) What the meta analysis studies on priming have found.

(45:50) Science communication: how to tell the good science from the bad.

(49:03) The importance of podcasting to bridge the gap between science and people.

(1:00:03) Grooving session with Tim and Kurt on priming. 

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

John Bargh's book “Before You Know It: The Unconscious Reasons We Do What We Do”: https://amzn.to/3yUHka8

Episode 248, Do We Control Situations or Do Situations Control Us? With John Bargh: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/control-situations-with-john-bargh/ 

Episode 155, John Bargh: Dante, Coffee and the Unconscious Mind: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/john-bargh-unconscious-mind/ 

Global Workspace Theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_workspace_theory 

Bargh JA. “What have we been priming all these years? On the development, mechanisms, and ecology of nonconscious social behavior.” Eur J Soc Psychol. 2006: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19844598/ 

Shinobu Kitayama, University of Michigan: https://lsa.umich.edu/psych/people/faculty/kitayama.html 

Daphna Oyserman, University of Southern California: https://dornsife.usc.edu/daphna-oyserman 

Paul J. Reber, Northwestern University: https://www.reberlab.psych.northwestern.edu/people/paul/ 

Daniel Schacter, “Amnesia observed: Remembering and forgetting in a natural environment” (1983): https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1983-26025-001 

Parafoveal Processing: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/psychology/parafoveal-processing 

Jeffrey W. Sherman (2017) “A Final Word on Train Wrecks”: https://psychology.ucdavis.edu/people/sherm/cv 

Evan Weingarten, Qijia Chen, Maxwell McAdams, Jessica Yi, Justin Hepler, Dolores Albarracin (2016) “On Priming Action: Conclusions from a Meta-Analysis of the Behavioral Effects of Incidentally-Presented Words”: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27957520/ 

Xiao Chen, Gary P. Latham, Ronald F. Piccolo, Guy Itzchakov (2019) “An Enumerative Review and a Meta-Analysis of Primed Goal Effects on Organizational Behavior”: https://iaap-journals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/apps.12239 

Roy F. Baumeister and Kathleen D. Vohs (2003): “Sobriety Epidemic Endangers Nation’s Well-Being”: https://www.psychologicalscience.org/observer/sobriety-epidemic-endangers-nations-well-being 

Episode 147, Gary Latham, PhD: Goal Setting, Prompts, Priming, and Skepticism: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/gary-latham-goal-setting-prompts/  

AC/DC “Hells Bells”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etAIpkdhU9Q 

Psychedelic Porn Crumpets “Acid Dent”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuQyIQ0NA0k 

Acid Dad “Searchin’”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzSwzUAqVWw 

The Orb “Blue Room”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ8nTbS9mOE 

Nirvana “Smells Like Teen Spirit”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTWKbfoikeg 

Pearl Jam “Black”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgaRVvAKoqQ 

The Who “Who You Are”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNbBDrceCy8 

Led Zeppelin “All My Love”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXC87EABywo 

Dead Pirates “Alexis”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9FsgAyZop4 

Hadestown Broadway Show “Way Down Hadestown”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJIc3RtJK7U 

Rory Sutherland is a British advertising executive who became fascinated with behavioral science. Between his TED talks, books and articles, he has become one of the field’s greatest proponents. Rory is currently the Executive Creative Director of OgilvyOne, after gigs as vice-chairman of Ogilvy Group UK and co-founder of the Behavioural Sciences Practice, part of the Ogilvy & Mather group of companies. He is the author of The Spectator’s The Wiki Man column and his most recent book, which we highly recommend, is Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life.

Our discussion with Rory was original published in January 2020, but Rory’s evergreen insights continue to be popular with our listeners so we decided to republish this episode. You can also listen to Rory discuss his latest book Transport for Humans: Are We Nearly There Yet? alongside his co-writer Pete Dyson, in episode 290.

We start this discussion with Rory by asking him about his book and some of his insights from it. His approach to advertising, marketing and product design is informed by his ability to look for the things that aren’t there. He once described a solution to improving customer satisfaction on the Chunnel Train between London and Paris by suggesting that a billion dollars would be better spent on supermodel hosts in the cars than on reducing ride time by 15 minutes. He’s a terrifically insightful thinker.

Our conversation ran amok down all sorts of rabbit holes, as expected, including ergodicity, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle’s “The Silver Blaze,” high-end audio and the dietary habits of the world-famous runner, Usain Bolt.

In Kurt and Tim’s Grooving Session, we discuss some of our favorite takeaways from Rory’s conversation including, “The Opposite of a Good Idea is a Good Idea” and others. And finally, Kurt teed up the Bonus Track with a final reflection and recap of the key points we discussed.

As always, we would be grateful if you would write us a quick review. It helps us get noticed by other folks who are interested in podcasts about behavioral science. It will only take 27 seconds. Thank you, and we appreciate your help.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

Rory Sutherland: https://ogilvy.co.uk/people/rorys

“Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life”: https://amzn.to/3xbibt3

“Transport for Humans: Are We Nearly There Yet?”: https://amzn.to/3cZPyIy

Episode 290, Transport Your Thinking; Why We Need To Reframe Travel | Rory Sutherland & Pete Dyson: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/transport-rory-sutherland-pete-dyson/

“Friction”: https://www.rogerdooley.com/books/friction/

Murray Gell-Mann, PhD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray_Gell-Mann

Robin Williams “Scottish Golf”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx8TzR1-n4Q

Don Draper: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Draper

Ergodicity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergodicity

John James Cowperthwaite: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_James_Cowperthwaite

SatNav: https://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/satnav

Daniel Kahneman, PhD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Kahneman

What You See is All There Is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow

Arthur Conan-Doyle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Conan_Doyle

Sherlock Holmes “Silver Blaze”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventure_of_Silver_Blaze

Tim Houlihan’s Blog on “Silver Blaze”: https://tinyurl.com/ufumkj6

Ben Franklin T-Test: https://tinyurl.com/wocdsdk

Volkswagen Fighter: https://tinyurl.com/qpyqh87

David Ogilvy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ogilvy_(businessman)

Jock Elliot: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2005/dec/01/guardianobituaries.media

Battle of Leyte Gulf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Leyte_Gulf

Croft Audio: http://www.croftacoustics.co.uk/main.html

Mu-So single speaker: https://www.naimaudio.com/mu-so

WFMT Chicago: https://www.wfmt.com/

TK Maxx: https://www.tkmaxx.com/uk/en/

Berlin Hotel with Big Lebowski: https://www.michelbergerhotel.com/en/

Shure: https://www.shure.com/en-US/products/microphones?lpf[top][types][]=microphones

Zoom: https://zoom.us/

Satisficing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisficing

Usain Bolt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usain_Bolt

Sheena Iyengar, PhD: https://www.sheenaiyengar.com/

Jelly Jar Study: https://tinyurl.com/oo6g6eb

Big Band Music: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_band

Aretha Franklin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aretha_Franklin

Southern California Community Choir: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_California_Community_Choir

Abba: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABBA

Felix Mendelssohn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Mendelssohn

George Frideric Handel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Frideric_Handel

Johann Sebastian Bach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Sebastian_Bach

Johann Christian Bach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Christian_Bach

Psychology and neuroscience have proven that our minds do things on autopilot. These shortcuts (or heuristics) are laden with unconscious biases, which are juxtaposed to our self identity as a “good” person; one that isn’t racist, sexist or homophobic. Dolly Chugh believes we should set a higher standard for ourselves by being good-ish people. By implementing a Growth Mindset, a concept pioneered by Carol Dweck, we don’t hang on too tightly to our identity. We learn to change, and to be taught and to grow.

Dolly Chugh is an award-winning associate professor and social psychologist at the Stern School of Business at New York University. Her research focuses on the “psychology of good people”. How and why most of us, however well-intended, are still prone to race and gender bias, as well as what she calls “bounded ethicality.”  

Kurt and Tim sat down with Dolly for this episode in Spring 2021 to talk about the concept of “good-ish” which is a central theme to her book The Person You Mean to Be: How Good People Fight Bias. In subsequent episodes we have referenced Dolly's interview and work many times, so we wanted to republish her episode so you can enjoy listening to her insights again.

In our conversation with Dolly we learn about her beautiful analogy of headwinds and tailwinds that describe the invisible biases and systemic issues that many people in our world face. She explains the “Hmmm Framework” that she came up with after the January 6th Attack on the Capitol. And, of course, we discuss music and how Dolly incorporates it into her teaching and her writing.

In our focused Grooving Session, Tim and Kurt extract the meaningful ways that we can apply Dolly’s work into our everyday lives. We summarize the key parts of our interview with her and how we can each challenge ourselves to find our good-ish groove!

(2:41) Speed round questions

(4:12) What is the difference between good and good-ish? 

(9:09) Why is a growth mindset so difficult?

(12:28) Why we should integrate psychology more into our educational and political systems

(15:48) How systemic racism and unconscious bias are related

(29:12) Hmmm Framework and thought experiments

(34:04) How do we discover our own blind spots?

(38:58) How Dolly incorporates music into her teaching and writing

(43:21) Applications from our interview with Dolly in our Grooving Session:

1. Step back and be intentional, use “when...then…” statements.
2. Don’t hold on so tightly to our identity and the status quo.
3. Thought experiments to unveil our own ignorance. 
4. The Harvard Implicit Association Test (IAT).
5. Self audit - look at our library, our magazines, our TV shows, what we talk about with friends. How are we showing up in the world? Are we being intentional with where we put our effort?

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

Dolly Chugh: http://www.dollychugh.com/about-dolly 

Dolly Chugh, The Person You Mean to Be: How Good People Fight Bias https://amzn.to/35tGwMe 

Carol Dweck, Mindset, The New Psychology of Success https://amzn.to/3wDv10I 

Episode 196: Living Happier By Making the World Better with Max Bazerman https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/living-happier-by-making-the-world-better-with-max-bazerman/

Mahzarin Banaji https://psychology.fas.harvard.edu/people/mahzarin-r-banaji 

Molly Kern https://www.molly-kern.com/ 

Happy Days https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee0gziqT2Yk&ab_channel=ChiefScheiderChiefScheider 

Grey’s Anatomy https://youtu.be/dSGLObjyFvA 

Steve Martin and Nuala Walsh, Episode 209: GAABS and Improving the Future for Every Applied Behavioral Scientist https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/improving-the-future-for-every-applied-behavioral-scientist/

Katy Milkman, How to Change https://amzn.to/3wDZHzc 

Confronting the legacy of housing discrimination https://www.cbs.com/shows/cbs_this_morning/video/vLnaRgBIed_ph_NxZa2ZaivfdC_FeD1f/white-americans-confront-legacy-of-housing-discrimination/ 

Harvard Implicit Association Test https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/ 

Alec Lacamoire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Lacamoire 

Lake Wobegon Effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Wobegon 

Episode 214: Observing the Non-Obvious: How to Spot Trends Around You with Rohit Bhargava https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/the-non-obvious-rohit-bhargava/

Hamilton “Alexander Hamilton” https://youtu.be/VhinPd5RRJw 

In the Heights “Blackout” https://youtu.be/T0V2cCjf1Tk 

Something Rotten! “A Musical” https://youtu.be/1KFNcy9VjQI 

Bruno Mars “The Lazy Song” https://youtu.be/fLexgOxsZu0 

38 Special “Hold On Loosely” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJtf7R_oVaw 

Buffalo Springfield “For What It’s Worth” https://youtu.be/80_39eAx3z8 

For many years, the general consensus by many researchers and practitioners was that providing people with short-term extrinsic rewards sapped their long-term motivation. This led to some organizations reducing or not using short-term rewards at all. However, this perspective has always had some detractors and now even more research shows that this belief is misleading.

In this episode, Kurt and Tim explore the research paper by Indranil Goswami and Oleg Urmisky with the lovely title of “The Dynamic Effect of Incentives on Post-Reward Task Engagement” that shows that while short-term incentives drive an immediate reduction in task engagement, this only lasts for a short time and that engagement rebounds to the baseline relatively quickly.  

We examine some of the backstory to this belief, what the study showed, and review the implications of this.    

The Dynamic Effect of Incentives on Post-Reward Task Engagement: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/312100138_The_dynamic_effect_of_incentives_on_postreward_task_engagement 

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

The GodFather of Influence, Robert Cialdini joins us on Behavioral Grooves to share his motivation for expanding his bestselling book Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion which now includes a completely new Seventh Principle of Influence: Unity. This additional principle can help explain our political loyalties, vaccine hesitancy and why media headlines can be so inflammatory.

Another motivation for the revised edition to the book is to include more application to the Principles of Influence. So our conversation highlights some of Bob’s advice for start-up businesses and how they can harness the principle of Social Proof. And as general advice, Bob recounts how he recently advised a teenager to be generous to others – this in turn stimulates the Rule of Reciprocity, nurturing a relationship which is mutually beneficial.

No episode of Behavioral Grooves would be complete without discussing music, even with guests we’ve interviewed before! But the theme of unity has a special significance with music and Bob highlights how music and dance bring people together and help them feel unified. Plus we get an interesting story of an experiment in France, and how a guitar case played a crucial part in one man’s luck.

We hope you enjoy our discussion with The Godfather of Influence, Robert Cialdini. Since we generously share our great content with you, perhaps you feel influenced by the Rule of Reciprocity and will become a Behavioral Grooves Patreon Member!

[This episode was originally published in May 2021 and you can also listen to our first interview with Robert Cialdini in Episode 50].

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

(3:55) Speed round

(6:50) Ideal number of stars on your online review

(9:00) Why Cialdini wrote a new edition of Influence

(12:13) The new Seventh Principle: Unity

(15:10) How to harness social proof as a start-up

(20:02) A new color of lies

(22:22) Principle of Unity with politics

(24:42) Tribalism and vaccine hesitancy

(28:35) Why Trump getting vaccinated hasn’t influenced his voters

(30:50) How framing of media headlines influences our perception of the news

(33:24) The Petrified Forest Wood Principle

(36:56) Where will the next generation of research go with Cialdini’s work?

(40:52) What advice would Cialdini give your teenager?

(48:23) Music and influence

(53:05) Grooving session

Influence, New and Expanded: The Psychology of Persuasion https://amzn.to/3tyCpZ6

Pre-Suasion: A Revolutionary Way to Influence and Persuade https://amzn.to/3eGdyOW

Episode 50: Robert Cialdini, PhD: Littering, Egoism and Aretha Franklin:  https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/robert-cialdini-phd-littering-egoism-and-aretha-franklin/

Increase Your Influence: https://www.influenceatwork.com/ 

Godfather 2 Movie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Godfather_Part_II 

Richard Thaler: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Thaler 

Daniel Kahneman: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Kahneman 

Episode 222: How Delusions Can Actually Be Useful: Shankar Vedantam Reveals How: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/shankar-vedantam-useful-delusions/

Donald Trump vaccine: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackbrewster/2021/04/20/trump-i-dont-know-why-republicans-are-vaccine-hesitant-again-floats-pfizer-conspiracy-theory/ 

Mike Pence: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/pence-set-receive-covid-vaccine-televised-appearance-n1251655 

Petrified Forest Wood Principle: https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/the-shaping-us/201909/the-petrified-wood-principle 

Stanley Schachter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Schachter 

Jerome Singer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerome_E._Singer 

Episode 220: How Do You Become Influential? Jon Levy Reveals His Surprising Secrets: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-to-be-influential-jon-levy/

The psychology of misinformation: Why it’s so hard to correct: https://firstdraftnews.org/latest/the-psychology-of-misinformation-why-its-so-hard-to-correct/ 

How to combat fake news and  misinformation: https://www.brookings.edu/research/how-to-combat-fake-news-and-disinformation/ 

Teaching skills to combat fake news and misinformation: https://www.washington.edu/trends/teaching-skills-to-combat-fake-news-and-misinformation/ 

Episode 102: Cristina Bicchieri: Social Norms are Bundles of Expectations: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/cristina-bicchieri-social-norms-are-bundles-of-expectations/

Episode 214: Observing the Non-Obvious: How to Spot Trends Around You with Rohit Bhargava: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/the-non-obvious-rohit-bhargava/

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Priming studies have had some negative press over the past ten years - some of it justified, some of it not. In this groove track, Kurt and Tim examine a 2018 study done by Alexander Stajkovic, Kayla Sergent, Gary Latham, and Suzanne Peterson called “Prime and Performance: Can a CEO Motivate Employees Without Their Awareness?” 

This field study, with real-world implications, demonstrated that the choice of words had an impact on company performance. The impact was not just statistically significant, but it had real-world significance as well. The researchers replaced 12 words in a company President’s e-mail message to his employees. The impact that those 12 words had on performance was wild.  

Kurt and Tim examine how the study was set up, the type of priming used, how performance was measured, and explore some of the key findings. We try to peel back the reasons why the interventions worked as it did, and discuss both the positive implications of this study, as well as things we should be wary of.  

Listen now or find out more about this paper in our blog post. Enjoy! 

Shankar Vedantam is the host of the wildly popular podcast, Hidden Brain and esteemed author of the book Useful Delusions: The Power and Paradox of the Self-Deceiving Brain. We initially interviewed Shankar in mid 2021 but want to highlight this discussion for you again as it is one we still discuss in more recent episodes.

Before reading Shankar’s book and interviewing him for this podcast we were, as Shankar describes himself, card-carrying rationalists. We were firmly in the camp of believing rational, scientific findings and believing that lies and deception are harmful to ourselves and to our communities. However, Shankar walks us through a compelling argument, that paradoxically, self-deception actually plays a pivotal role in our happiness and well-being.

In our discussion with Shankar we cover:

• (6:38) Speed round questions.
• (11:04) The difference between self delusions being useful and being harmful.
• (16:23) How nations are a delusional construct.
• (23:00) Awareness of self-delusions and how daily gratitudes can shift our perspective of the world. 
• (25:56) Shankar’s personal story of delusional thinking. 
• (29:58) The role emotions play in our mood and delusions.
• (35:23) How avoidance of delusional thinking is a sign of privilege.
• (37:30) Why our perceptions play an important role in understanding delusions.
• (44:36) Shankar’s unique approach to conspiracy theories.
• (52:28) What music Shankar has been listening to during COVID.
• (52:15) Grooving Session and Bonus Track with Kurt and Tim.

We really hope you find Shankar’s unique insight on how delusions are useful as compelling as we did. If you’re a regular Behavioral Grooves listener, please consider supporting us through Patreon. Thank you! 

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

• Useful Delusions: The Power and Paradox of the Self-Deceiving Brain https://amzn.to/2PUkzlv 

• The Hidden Brain: How Our Unconscious Minds Elect Presidents, Control Markets, Wage Wars and Save Our Lives https://amzn.to/3e1qgWY

Noise: A Flaw in Human Judgment by Kahneman, Sibony and Sunstein, 2021 https://amzn.to/3heyr5r 

Richard Dawkins https://richarddawkins.net/ 

Mahabharata https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata 

Lake Wobegon Effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Wobegon 

The Myth of the “Relationship Spark” with Logan Ury (featuring a guest appearance by Christina Gravert, PhD): https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/the-myth-of-the-relationship-spark-with-logan-ury-featuring-a-guest-appearance-by-christina-gravert-phd/

Robert Cialdini, PhD: Littering, Egoism and Aretha Franklin: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/robert-cialdini-phd-littering-egoism-and-aretha-franklin/ 

Self Control, Belonging, and Why Your Most Dedicated Employees Are the Ones To Watch Out For with Roy Baumeister: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/self-control-belonging-and-why-your-most-dedicated-employees-are-the-ones-to-watch-out-for-with-roy-baumeister/

George Loewenstein: On a Functional Theory of Boredom: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/george-loewenstein-on-a-functional-theory-of-boredom/

Gary Latham, PhD: Goal Setting, Prompts, Priming, and Skepticism: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/gary-latham-phd-goal-setting-prompts-priming-and-skepticism/

John Bargh: Dante, Coffee and the Unconscious Mind: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/john-bargh-dante-coffee-and-the-unconscious-mind/

Linda Thunstrom: Are Thoughts and Prayers Empty Gestures to Suffering Disaster Victims? https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/linda-thunstrom-are-thoughts-and-prayers-empty-gestures-to-suffering-disaster-victims/ 

Three things generate a sense of meaning IN life;

1. Coherence - can you make sense of the world?
2. Purpose - do you feel a sense of purpose with what you do? And
3. Significance - does your life matter?

Having meaning in your life is correlated with a sense of self certainty. Knowing who you are and having a sense of self, gives you structure and a stable way of seeing the world.

But how do you answer the question “who am I?” Our guest, Dr Brian Lowery PhD says the answer isn’t as individualistic as we may have been led to believe. Not only do those around us; our friends, co-workers and parents contribute to who we are, Brian claims they actually create who we are. Putting it bluntly, there is no way of separating “you” from your relationships.

We’ve waited a long time to talk to Brian, who is the Walter Kenneth Kilpatrick Professor of Organizational Behavior at the Stanford Graduate School of Business. He is a social psychologist by training, but Brian’s work is by no means traditional in that field. He studies how individuals perceive inequality, and his research explores individuals' experiences of inequality and fairness in a way that sheds light on intergroup conflict and the nature of social justice. Brian is also a fellow podcaster, hosting the show Know What You See which is definitely worth checking out.

Listeners can become a Behavioral Grooves supporter by donating to our work through Patreon. Or please consider writing us a podcast review on your app. Thanks!

(5:21) Welcome to Brian Lowery and speed round questions.

(7:34) The meaning IN life vs. the meaning OF life.

(9:23) How meaning in life is linked to a sense of self certainty.

(13:30) Context matters: those around us create who we are.

(17:13) What are you referring to when you talk about you?

(19:23) The responsibility we have when interacting with others. 

(21:27) Does authenticity assume a stability of self?

(26:17) Our relationships define us while also limiting our freedom.

(30:59) The myth of rugged individualism.

(36:35) Do we really have freewill?

(42:06) What Brian talks about on his podcast, Know What You See.

(43:42) What role does music play in the identity of self?

(51:43) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim discussing the meaning in life.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

Know What You See Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/know-what-you-see-with-brian-lowery/id1580636076 

Monty Python’s The Meaning Of Life: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAwDWZoETk4&ab_channel=MontyPython 

Episode 67, George Loewenstein: On a Functional Theory of Boredom: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/george-loewenstein-on-a-functional-theory-of-boredom/ 

Episode 248, John Bargh: Do We Control Situations or Do Situations Control Us? https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/control-situations-with-john-bargh/ 

Kimberle Crenshaw: https://www.law.columbia.edu/faculty/kimberle-w-crenshaw 

Episode 307, Groove Track | Mind Over Milkshakes: Why Expectations Matter A Lot: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/mind-over-milkshakes-groove-track/ 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon:  https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Killer Mike “Untitled”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNsAfGDkUtk 

Incentives can improve motivation. But what actually happens when the incentive is removed? An influential body of research previously suggested that extrinsic rewards have a negative impact on intrinsic motivation. However, more recent studies show this not to be the case over the long term. Our guest, Dr Indranil Goswami PhD, talks us through the longer term effects of temporary incentives and the implications for motivating behavior change.

Indranil is an Assistant Professor of Marketing at the University at Buffalo.  The research that we focus on in this episode is the paper he co-wrote with Dr Oleg Urminsky PhD, called  “The Dynamic Effect of Incentives on Post-Reward Task Engagement”.

While there may be a dose of confirmation bias with this conversation, Kurt and Tim are excited to hear more about Indranil’s research which backs up what they have been telling companies for years:

“Incentives are useful for improving people's behavior, engagement and performance.”

Managers, academics and even parents have bought into the widely held belief that extrinsic motivators are not a useful tool for initiating behavior change. But Indranil’s work may help you reevaluate the tools you use to motivate those around you. Listen in and let us know if it encourages you to rethink your incentive program.

Regular listeners to Behavioral Grooves may enjoy being part of our exclusive group of Patreon members by supporting our work. You can also write a review of our podcast on whatever platform you listen on, and we often read these out on the show. Thank you!

(2:49) Welcome and speed round questions.

(4:00) Do extrinsic incentives always suppress intrinsic motivation?

(9:41) Does post incentive disengagement actually happen?

(16:59) The surprising effect of big incentives.

(22:42) Real world experiences of incentives.

(25:03) Can we design incentives that improve post reward performance?

(31:40) What is more motivating - flat fee payment schemes or rate based payment scheme?

(38:57) Does Indranil use music as motivation?

(43:18) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim on rewards and motivation.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

Goswami I, Urminsky O (2017) The dynamic effect of incentives on postreward task engagement: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28054810/ 

Daniel Kahneman: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Kahneman 

Dan Ariely: https://danariely.com/ 

Eisenberger, R., & Cameron, J. (1996) Detrimental effects of reward: Reality or myth? https://doi.org/10.1037/0003-066X.51.11.1153

Dan Ariely, Uri Gneezy, George Loewenstein, Nina Mazar (2009) Large Stakes and Big Mistakes: https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1467-937X.2009.00534.x

Episode 106, Jana Gallus: The Role of Precision in Incentives: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/jana-gallus-the-role-of-precision-in-incentives/ 

Goswami, Indranil and Urminsky, Oleg (2018). Don't Fear the Meter: How Longer Time Limits Yield Biased Preferences for Flat Fee Contracts: http://dx.doi.org/10.2139/ssrn.3448174

Episode 71, Alex Imas: Clawback Incentives and Tom Waits: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/alex-imas-clawback-incentives-and-tom-waits/ 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon:  https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Ravi Shankar “The Spirit of India”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMk2eTqPLWk 

How do we make sense in a world that often seems nonsensical? In this week’s episode, Kurt and Tim team up with Saul Perlmutter and Rob MacCoun, co-authors of Third Millennium Thinking, to try and answer these unanswerable questions for listeners. Together, they bring the scientific method from theory to practice as they explore key aspects of scientific inquiry, probabilistic thinking, and the significance of embracing uncertainty in problem-solving. 

Saul and Rob help bring scientific practice into reality and cover various topics from the role of experimentation in identifying cause-and-effect relationships, the importance of assigning probabilities in decision-making, and the virtues of persistence and optimism in tackling challenges. 

In today’s increasingly polarized climate, it’s important to understand the value of seeking diverse perspectives to avoid mental traps and the power of collective cognition in decision-making. From probabilistic thinking to scientific optimism this conversation showcases how applying the scientific method can enhance not only our individual way of thinking but our interactions with the world. 

© 2024 Behavioral Grooves

[4:08] Intro and speed round

[7:48] Scientific method and experimentation in various fields

[16:54] Using probability to make informed decisions

[21:34] Dangers of polarization and the importance of making quick estimates

[28:08] Using mathematical estimates to solve problems

[32:55] Scientific optimism in the face of challenges

[43:05] Collective cognition and the importance of acknowledging uncertainty

[50:35] Grooving Session: Using the scientific method to improve thinking

© 2024 Behavioral Grooves

Third Millennium Thinking: Creating Sense in a World of Nonsense

Nobel Prize - Saul Perlmutter

Rob MacCoun

Steven Pinker

The Law of Group Polarization

Musical Links

Jazz Classics

John Williams, Star Wars

We take a deep dive exploring the 1997 study “LABOR SUPPLY OF NEW YORK CITY CAB DRIVERS: ONE DAY AT A TIME,” by  Colin Camerer, Linda Babcock, George Loewenstein, and Richard Thaler.   This paper shifts through piles of data to look at how NY city cab drivers behaved - and what they found was an economic anomaly - the cab drivers did not behave as classical economists predicted.  The data showed that the drivers worked shorter hours on days when they earned faster (e.g., when it's raining) which goes against what economists would have predicted (i.e., that they maximize those opportunities).    

Kurt and Tim run through how the study came to be, what they measured, and the implications of the paper's findings.  This is a quick and fun dive into one of behavioral science classic studies.  

Find out more about this paper in our blog post

Love connects us to things in a deep way. But when we say we love our car, or we love our favorite beach, or we love our children, the love we express for each of those things is very different. So can we really love things as much as we love people? 

Our guest is Dr. Aaron Ahuvia, the world’s leading expert on brand love, a topic he pioneered and has worked on since 1990. He is a Professor of Marketing at the University of Michigan Ann Arbor’s Ross School of Business. Among the many books and papers he has authored, our favorite is the paper titled “Dr. Seuss, Felicitator”. For those of you who are unfamiliar with the term “felicitator,” it is someone who brings happiness to others. 

With Aaron, we discuss the very interesting and important topic of loving the things in our lives, why we love them, and how that love can change over time. This is especially true with brands and products and sporting teams and neighborhoods. One of the big takeaways from our conversation with Aaron is just to let go of this notion that it might be bad to love something.

If you love Behavioral Grooves, and it brings you a little happiness, please consider becoming one of our special Patreon members. Or you can tell us, and others, how much you love the show by leaving us a podcast review on whatever platform you use to listen. Thanks!

(4:45) Welcome and speed round questions.

(7:09) Can you really love a thing like you love a person?

(9:39) The difference between liking and loving.

(13:13) Why do we love sports teams?

(18:05) Why do we love something that can’t reciprocate?

(20:18) Is there an evolutionary basis to our love of objects?

(23:44) Do we love the things we use more often?

(27:44) Loving the music vs. the equipment that plays the music.

(34:29) The social aspect of the objects we buy.

(36:46) How Aaron loves music.

(42:46) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim on what we love.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

Aaron Ahuvia’s book “The Things We Love: How Our Passions Connect Us and Make Us Who We Are”: https://amzn.to/3IW0Jxj 

Broadbent, Sarah (2012) Brand love in sport: antecedents and consequences: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305330187_Brand_love_in_sport_antecedents_and_consequences 

Seth Stephens-Davidowitz, Episode 306, “Trust Your Gut? Only If The Data Supports It”: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/trust-your-gut/ 

Rory Sutherland & Pete Dyson, Episode 290 “Transport Your Thinking; Why We Need To Reframe Travel”: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/transport-rory-sutherland-pete-dyson/ 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon:  https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves. 

Cory Wong “Power Station”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1loN5mhRkI 

Brian Eno “Desert Island Music”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rQBi692Dw8 

Disembarking people from a plane, row by row during the height of COVID, but then cramming all the passengers into a bus to the terminal…where is the common sense in that? Best selling author Martin Lindstrom laments that we are drowning in bureaucracy and that technology is contributing to the death of common sense in society.

Founder and chairman of Lindstrom Company, Martin Lindstrom is also the best selling author of seven New York Times best-selling books. We talk with Martin about his most recent book, “The Ministry Of Common Sense: How to Eliminate Bureaucratic Red Tape, Bad Excuses, and Corporate BS”.

Our conversation covers a lot of ground in a short time, including how John F. Kennedy was a trendsetter for the way businessmen dress today, why Martin lives without a phone, as well as how to cultivate more human-to-human connections. And since no conversation on Behavioral Grooves would be complete without a chit-chat about music, we find out what artists Martin would choose to take with him to a desert island.

If you are a regular listener to Behavioral Grooves, please consider donating to our work through Patreon. We really appreciate all our listeners' support, thanks.

(2:55) Welcome to Martin and speed round.

(8:19) Is technology contributing to the death of common sense?

(9:51) Separating private life and work life.

(14:45) What is the Ministry of Common Sense about?

(22:58) Compliance and being different.

(27:07) What musical artists would Martin take to a desert island?

(30:03) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim on common sense.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

Martin Lindstrom’s book: “The Ministry Of Common Sense: How to Eliminate Bureaucratic Red Tape, Bad Excuses, and Corporate BS”: https://amzn.to/3z0CJ7M 

Martin Lindstrom: https://www.martinlindstrom.com/ 

Whitney Johnson, Episode 285: “The Three Phases of Growth and Learning”: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/three-phases-of-growth/ 

Charlie Bell: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Bell_(businessman) 

Human Risk Podcast: https://www.human-risk.com/podcast 

Nir Eyal, Episode 303 “From Distracted To Focused: Nir Eyal’s Secrets On How To Be Indistractable”: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/nir-eyal-how-to-be-indistractable/ 

Vanessa Bohns, Episode 253 “Why You Don‘t Need to be Powerful to be Influential”: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/influence-vanessa-bohns/ 

Robert Cialdini, Episode 226 “The Power of Unity: Robert Cialdini Expands His Best Selling Book Influence”:  https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/cialdini-unity-in-influence/ 

Andrea Belk Olson, Episode 304 “Finding Out What Your Customers Want and Why It Matters”: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/what-your-customers-wants/ 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon page: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Tina Turner “Proud Mary”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTfYnRQgKgY&ab_channel=TinaTurner 

Phil Collins “A Groovy Kind of Love”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsC_SARyPzk&ab_channel=PhilCollins 

Mozart “Requiem”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi8vJ_lMxQI 

Vivaldi “Four Seasons”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRxofEmo3HA 

When making big decisions, people often go with what feels right - who we marry, where we live, what career we pursue. We base these decisions on our gut instinct. But what if our gut is biased, misinformed or quite simply wrong? 

Economist, former Google scientist, New York Times bestselling author and friend of the show Seth Stephens-Davidowitz has mined through thousands of data sets to prove that we are, in fact, frequently making ill-informed decisions when we only trust our gut. And we are delighted to be talking to Seth again about his fantastic new book, Don't Trust Your Gut: Using Data to Get What You Really Want in Life.

From the data, Seth has uncovered what activities make us most happy, which isn’t always the most comfortable activity.

“If you're on the fence, between walking with friends, and lying on the couch watching Netflix…go on that walk…it's been proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt that that's the more likely path to happiness.” 

But surprisingly there is one aspect of life that data cannot give us answers on. Listen to Seth’s entertaining interview to find out when exactly we should and shouldn’t trust our gut.

At Behavioral Grooves, the data tells us that our listeners are loving our recent episodes! Thank you to everyone who has recently left us a podcast review. We read each and every one of them! Some of our dedicated Behavioral Grooves, donate to our work through Patreon page. Please consider supporting our work in this way, many thanks.

(2:58) Welcome and speed round questions.

(10:04) Should we really not trust our gut?

(16:09) Relationships are as unpredictable as the weather forecast.

(20:16) Big data doesn’t apply to everything.

(22:51) Is skepticism underrated? 

(24:51) What is mappiness?

(27:48) Does supporting a winning team make you more happy?

(29:28) The #1 happy activity.

(32:29) Mistaking a comfortable activity for an enjoyable activity.

(37:28) What is dataism?

(44:20) The data behind hustling. 

(46:54) Would Bob Dylan and Leonard Cohen make it today?

(52:37) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim on trusting your gut.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

Seth’s book: “Don't Trust Your Gut: Using Data to Get What You Really Want in Life”: https://amzn.to/3yICKwT 

Episode 246, Seth Stephens-Davidowitz: Are You More Honest with Google or Your Friends? https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/are-you-more-honest-with-google/ 

Alexander Todorov, “Face Value: The Irresistible Influence of First Impressions”: https://amzn.to/3Pi59kp 

Episode 211, AJ Jacobs: A Thousand Thanks: A Lifetime of Experiments and Gratitude: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/a-thousand-thanks-with-aj-jacobs/ 

Seth’s previous book: “Everybody Lies: Big Data, New Data, and What the Internet Can Tell Us About Who We Really Are”: https://amzn.to/32ULlgD

Episode 222, Shankar Vedantam “How Delusions Can Actually Be Useful: Shankar Vedantam Reveals How“: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/shankar-vedantam-useful-delusions/ 

Mappiness: http://www.mappiness.org.uk/ 

Krishnamurti T, Loewenstein G. The partner-specific sexual liking and sexual wanting scale: psychometric properties. Arch Sex Behav. 2012 Apr;41(2): https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21720917/ 

Episode 287, Nick Epley, Why Talking To Strangers Is Actually Good For Your Wellbeing: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/talking-to-strangers/ 

Episode 274: Paul Bloom, Why Finding Pleasure in Life is a Painful Journey: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/pleasure-is-a-painful-journey/ 

Episode 205: Logan Ury, The Myth of the “Relationship Spark”: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/relationship-spark-logan-ury/ 

1000 True Fans, Kevin Kelly: https://kk.org/thetechnium/1000-true-fans/ 

Rick Springfield “Jesse’s Girl”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYkbTyHXwbs 

Bruce Springsteen “Glory Days’: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WccS8iFXgFI 

Bob Dylan “The Times Are A-Changin’”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90WD_ats6eE 23refvc 

Leonard Cohen “Hallelujah”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrLk4vdY28Q 

Metallica “Nothing Else Matters”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAGnKpE4NCI 

Luther Ingram "(If Loving You Is Wrong) I Don't Want to Be Right": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvJj7SN9EWI 

Over the last 50 years, little has changed for the pharmaceutical management of mental illness. This is troublesome, but not unsolvable, according to The New York Times writer and author, Daniel Bergner. We talked with him about his most recent book, The Mind and the Moon: My Brother’s Story, the Science of Our Brains, and the Search for Our Psyches, and some of the key themes he discovered along his personal journey with a mentally challenged family member and other people he came to know well.

We discussed the shortcomings of our current mental healthcare systems and processes, the benefits of non-traditional mental health therapies, the ancient myth about the Turkey Prince, and how we might be able to get immediate relief by reframing the conversation about pain management and pain suppression.

The book features stories about his brother and a few other people that are told in remarkable detail over a long period of time. The gripping and beautifully-told narrative will open your eyes to some of the challenges that mental illness brings to life. Our conversation with Daniel explored these stories and areas of mental health that are too often overlooked - and we are grateful we get to share that conversation with you.

If you are a regular listener to Behavioral Grooves, please consider contributing to our work through Patreon. Writing a podcast review or giving us a quick rating also helps others find our show. Weird, isn’t it? But, yeah, it’s true. We would appreciate any help you can offer.

Most importantly, if you or someone you know needs help, please seek help. The Mental Health Guide is a global resource with phone numbers and websites in dozens of countries: https://www.helpguide.org/find-help.htm.

(2:45) Welcome and speed round.

(5:23) What the book The Mind and The Moon is about.

(7:18) Progress in mental health treatment and with society in the last 50 years.

(10:00) The 3 stories that illustrate mental health in the book.

(15:50) The effect of psilocybin.

(18:15) What a turkey under a table can teach us about managing mental illness.

(21:09) What are the next steps in mental health?

(22:51) Daniel’s personal journey.

(26:23) Writing the book in the context of the Trump election and George Floyd.

(29:15) This is not an anti-pharmaceutical book.

(35:18) Was it deliberate that music was a big part of the book? 

(41:42) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim discussing mental health.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

Mental Health Guide with global phone numbers and websites: https://www.helpguide.org/find-help.htm 

Daniel Bergner’s book, “The Mind and The Moon: My Brother's Story, the Science of Our Brains, and the Search for Our Psyches”: https://amzn.to/3aka5pU 

Psilocybin:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybin

Steven Hyman: shorturl.at/lty19 

Episode 274, Paul Bloom, “Why Finding Pleasure in Life is a Painful Journey”: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/pleasure-is-a-painful-journey/ 

Episode 255, Daniel Almeida “The 5 Healthy Brain Habits Of A Neuroscientist”: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/healthy-brain-habits-neuroscience/ 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon page: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Stanley Brothers “The Darkest Hour Is Just Before Dawn”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmiYKpVNOVg 

Marty Robbins “Red River Valley”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezJkRDQmL2Y 

Simon & Garfunkel “The Sound of Silence”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAEppFUWLfc 

Wolfgang Mozart “Symphony No. 36 in C Major, K. 425 ‘Linz’ - I. Adagio - Allegro spiritoso”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMloPIwd_FM 

Antonio Vivaldi “Four Seasons - Spring”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LAPFM3dgag 

Customer feedback lacks two fundamental pieces of information: context and behavior. Traditional methods of insight, like the Net Promoter Score (NPS) and customer feedback surveys have their limitations. Andrea Belk Olson, our guest on this episode, challenges organizations to adopt a different approach to customer behavior by delving into the WHY and the WHAT, then coming up with a WOW hypothesis - a 3 step process called the 3W Ideation.

Author of the new book, “What to Ask: How to Learn What Customers Need but Don't Tell You”: https://amzn.to/3yvooRF, Andrea Belk Olson is the CEO of applied behavioral science consulting firm Pragmadik, and head of the University of Iowa JPEC startup incubator. She delivers a unique, cognitive method for discovering hidden customer needs, converting them quickly into differentiators, and avoiding the pitfalls of traditional research.

By using behavioral insights in organizations, Andrea believes that companies can become more customer focused. And when everyone in an organization is customer focused, the whole strategic vision of the company realigns. 

If you enjoy listening to Behavioral Grooves Podcast, please consider donating to our work through our Patreon page: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves. We use all the donations to fund the production of the podcast. Thanks!

(3:11) Welcome and speed round questions.

(7:14) How can marketers understand customers' needs?

(13:01) How to remove the disconnect between marketing and sales.

(16:42) The steps marketing can take to get closer to the customer.

(19:23) How behavioral science can help with adapting to change.

(26:07) The 3 W Ideation process: Why, What & WOW.

(30:04) The shortcomings of the Net Promoter Scores (NPS).

(32:44) What role does culture play?

(37:31) What Beethoven can teach us about behavior change.

(42:28) What music would Andrea take to a desert island? 

(45:37) Grooving session with Kurt and Tim on What To Ask. 

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

Andrea Belk Olson’s book: “What to Ask: How to Learn What Customers Need but Don't Tell You”: https://amzn.to/3yvooRF 

Episode 289, Why Not All Nudges Work ”In The Wild” with Nina Mazar PhD & Dilip Soman PhD: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/why-not-all-nudges-work-in-the-wild-nina-mazar-dilip-soman/ 

Queen “I Want To Break Free”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3w5gVM_4y8 

Led Zeppelin “Whole Lotta Love”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQmmM_qwG4k 

Utilizing the power of identity by proudly declaring yourself as indistractable can be a persuasive step in becoming the kind of person we want to be. By changing the language we use to describe ourselves, we can actually influence our own behavior. 

This is just one of the techniques that our popular guest, Nir Eyal describes in his new book, “Indistractable: How to Control Your Attention and Choose Your Life”. Nir is the international bestselling author of “Hooked: How to Build Habit-Forming Products”, a behavioral design expert, and host of the wonderful podcast “Nir and Far”. 

In a world full of demands on our attention, we may think that getting distracted is a recent phenomenon and blame our technology use. But in this episode, Nir describes how getting distracted is simply part of our human nature, something we’ve been plagued with for centuries. Listen to our fascinating interview with Nir to learn how to be intentional with our tasks, what planning our time should look like and why leaving time for reflection can lead to more creative achievements. 

If you enjoy this interview with Nir Eyal on Behavioral Grooves, please consider donating to our work through our Patreon page: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves. We use all the donations to fund the production of the podcast. Thanks!

(3:42) Welcome and speed round questions.

(7:22) Why to-do lists are the worst way to increase productivity.

(12:41) Internal triggers and external triggers.

(16:13) Why is it easier to look outside ourselves than inside ourselves?

(17:57) Nir’s personal journey into behavioral design.

(23:37) The morality of manipulation: behavioral design and ethics.

(27:06) The regret test: how you test ethical design at the corporate level.

(37:02) Practicing self compassion has surprising results on reaching your goals.

(42:23) How the language we use affects our behavior.

(49:28) Nir's very unusual answer to the desert island music question.

(52:29) Grooving session with Kurt and Tim on being indistractable. 

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

Nir Eyal’s book: “Indistractable: How to Control Your Attention and Choose Your Life”: http://geni.us/Indistractable

Indistractable bonus content: http://nirandfar.com/indistractable

Nir and Far Podcast: https://www.nirandfar.com/podcast/ 

Habits vs routines: https://www.nirandfar.com/habits/

Why schedules are better than to-do lists: https://www.nirandfar.com/todo-vs-schedule-builder/

Time boxing: https://www.nirandfar.com/timeboxing

Kurt Lewin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Lewin  

Dan Pink, Episode 277: No Regrets? Really? Why Regrets Actually Bring Us Hope: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/why-regrets-bring-us-hope/ 

Roy Baumeister, Episode 171: Self Control, Belonging, and Why Your Most Dedicated Employees Are the Ones To Watch Out For: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/self-control-belonging-and-why-your-most-dedicated-employees-are-the-ones-to-watch-out-for-with-roy-baumeister/ 

Bernecker Katharina, Job Veronika (2015) “Beliefs about willpower moderate the effect of previous day demands on next day’s expectations and effective goal striving”: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2015.01496/full 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon : https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

The Beatles “Don’t Let Me Down”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCtzkaL2t_Y 

Kanye West “Stronger”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsO6ZnUZI0g&ab_channel=KanyeWestVEVO

Mitt Romney once mistakenly quipped that people were either "makers or takers" echoing a common sentiment among US politicians that by working we provide society with value and are rewarded with a sense of dignity. But what if we considered that each of us had dignity that wasn't engulfed in our work identity? Would we be less susceptible to burnout if we accepted ourselves as enough as we are, regardless of our job status? 

Having come through a dark period of burnout himself, Jonathan Malesic firmly believes that we all have dignity. Period. He has written a timely book called The End of Burnout: Why work drains us and how to build better lives. We are delighted that Jon has come to talk to Behavioral Grooves Podcast about what leads to burnout and how to prevent it.

Jon delves into how the Protestant work ethic can contribute to burnout. And echoes Jennifer Moss’ sentiments from last week's episode that burnout is an issue with corporate culture, not an individual problem.

And to Tim's delight, Jon provides some historical context to the first musical mentions of burnout by Bob Dylan and Neil Young back in the 70s. We learn why that period in particular was a pivotal moment in the US labor market and how this is reflected in music from that era.

If you are a regular listener to Behavioral Grooves, please consider donating to our work through Patreon. If donating isn’t an option, don’t worry, writing a podcast review helps others find our show, and we love reading them!

(2:28) Welcome and speed round questions.

(7:47) The expectations of work vs. the reality of work.

(11:38) Jonathan’s experience of burnout.

(16:21) The 6 factors that can lead to burnout.

(21:29) Solutions to burnout.

(23:43) How the Protestant work ethic contributes to burnout.

(27:43) Putting dignity before work.

(32:44) How Jonathan wrote his whole book listening to just one album.

(37:33) Bob Dylan and Neil Young started singing about burnout in the 70s.

(42:45) How to avoid burnout.

(45:56) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim on the causes and solutions to burnout.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

Jonathan Malesic: https://jonmalesic.com/ 

“The End of Burnout: Why Work Drains Us and How to Build Better Lives” By Jonathan Malesic: https://amzn.to/3tDdS8j

The Parking Lot Movie by Meghan Eckman: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Parking_Lot_Movie

Christina Maslach: https://psychology.berkeley.edu/people/christina-maslach 

Michael Leiter: https://mpleiter.com/author/mpleiter/ 

Episode 247, Dr Phil Zimbardo: Stanford Prison Experiment, 50 Years On: What Have We Really Learnt? https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/stanford-prison-experiment/

The Pope’s Encyclicals: https://www.papalencyclicals.net/

Herbert Freudenberger: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Freudenberger 

The Myth of Sisyphus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Sisyphus 

Episode 301, Jennifer Moss: How To Fix Burnout (Hint: It Isn’t Another Yoga Session): https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-to-fix-burnout-jennifer-moss/ 

Episode 281, Sesil Pir: Why Leaders Need To Care For People, Not Manage Them: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/care-for-people-not-manage-them/ 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Neil Young “Ambulance Blues”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LTiKJlB62g

Bob Dylan “Shelter from the Storm”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gsDBuHwqbM

The War on Drugs “Lost In The Dream”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3HqnHUohOo

Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan “Mustt Mustt”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDfELfpumEE 

We’ve been programmed to treat burnout as a self-care issue, as if we’re just one yoga session or a relaxation app away from fixing the problem. Jennifer Moss, however, describes the solution to burnout as an organizational issue, not an individual hurdle. Creating a workplace culture where leaders model healthy work behavior, engage with empathy and cater for employees' individual needs can foster an environment that helps prevent burnout before it starts. 

"Employees can’t be what they can’t see." 

We love Jen’s analogy of the dusty ping pong table to illustrate the perks that some businesses offer but then don’t back-up with a work culture that encourages 20 minute breaks throughout the day. What your left with is a business that sounds like a great place to work, but in reality, there’s a dusty ping pong table in the basement that never gets used. Organizations need to adapt.

Jennifer Moss is a Harvard Business Review contributor and nationally syndicated radio columnist. She was on the Global Happiness Council—a small group of leading scientists and economists that support the UN’s sustainable goals related to global well-being and the Annual Global Happiness Policy Report.  Jennifer is also the author of a new book, The Burnout Epidemic which came out in September 2021.

In this episode, Jen will open your eyes to new ways of thinking about burnout - particularly how it gets framed in our culture and that loving your job doesn’t make you immune to burnout. 

If you would like to become a special supporter of Behavioral Grooves Podcast, you can join Behavioral Grooves Patreon.

(4:43) Welcome to Jen and speed round questions. 

(8:26) Is loving your work enough to avoid burnout?

(9:20) Why do we struggle so much with burnout?

(10:52) The 6 causes of burnout. 

(13:30) The dusty ping pong table.

(15:55) What role does leadership play in preventing burnout?

(21:45) Can you learn empathy?

(25:07) Should companies become more paternalistic?

(26:40) Culture eats strategy for breakfast.

(29:23) Becoming professional eavesdroppers. 

(33:36) Non work related check ins.

(38:47) How small team scrums can improve productivity. 

(42:19) Does mindset affect agility in teams?

(44:29) What music does Jen enjoy listening to?

(49:00) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim on burnout.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

Jennifer Moss’ book “The Burnout Epidemic: The Rise of Chronic Stress and How We Can Fix It”: https://amzn.to/3K3O4be 

Jennifer Moss: https://www.jennifer-moss.com/ 

Chester Elton, Episode 256 “Anxiety at Work: Why We Feel It and How To Manage It”: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/anxiety-at-work-chester-elton/ 

Dan Pink, Episode 277 “No Regrets? Really? Why Regrets Actually Bring Us Hope“: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/why-regrets-bring-us-hope/ 

Victoria Shaffer, Episode 95 “End of Life Decision Tools“: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/victoria-schaffer-end-of-life-decision-tools/ 

Liz Fosslien, Episode 120 “Covid-19 Crisis: Emotional Impact of WFH with Liz Fosslien”: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/c-19-crisis-emotional-impact-of-wfh-with-liz-fosslien/ 

Linda Babcock,. Episode 293 “Women Do Too Much Non-Promotable Work: How To Say No More with Linda Babcock”: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/women-do-too-much/ 

Sandra Sucher, Episode 266 “Trust: The Four Key Steps to Genuinely Build It | Sandra Sucher”: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/four-key-steps-to-build-trust/  

Ella Fitzgerald “Mack The Knife” Live in Berlin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vXAtVbZbkI 

Jørgen Dahl Moe “Dancing in the Dark”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_Qs6KvfiAY 

Etta James “At Last”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-cbOl96RFM 

Aretha Franklin “Respect”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FOUqQt3Kg0 

Sam Cooke “A Change is Gonna Come”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEBlaMOmKV4 

Adele “Someone Like You”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLQl3WQQoQ0 

Beethoven "Moonlight Sonata": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4591dCHe_sE 

We all know someone who believes in conspiracy theories and we wish we could change their mind. It is possible. There are techniques that can work to transform how people think. But what we love about our conversation with David McRaney is that he adds in a Step 0 to the process and asks “why do you want to change their mind?” 

Are you open to changing your own mind? If you have any interest in changing someone else’s mind, you should be open to changing your own mind too. To effectively collaborate with others and compassionately explore differences in opinion, we need to accept that our minds too can be changed.

We are delighted to welcome our esteemed guest David McRaney to this, our 300th episode of Behavioral Grooves Podcast! David takes a fascinating dive into why exactly we hold our beliefs, the science behind each of us seeing the world through slightly different lenses, and the stark reality that truth is tribal. While this is a long episode of Behavioral Grooves, you may just find yourself wanting to listen again as David’s detailed explanations are mind-blowing. 

David McRaney is a science journalist and creator of the podcast You Are Not So Smart which explores self delusion and motivated reasoning. His excellent new book (coming out June 2022), “How Minds Change: The Surprising Science of Belief, Opinion, and Persuasion” carefully unravels the science and personal experience of transformed thinking. 

Remember the dress that divided social media a few years ago; was it blue and black or white and gold? David explains exactly why some of us saw it differently and adds a new experiment about perception to the mix - crocs and socks! 

Conversations like David’s are the reason we produce Behavioral Grooves Podcast. It is a labor of love for us, and so, we really appreciate any financial support our listeners can provide, through our Patreon page. All donations help us continue the work of producing the podcast weekly. If donating isn’t an option for you, don’t worry, you can write us a podcast review which helps promote our show to other listeners. Thank you.

(4:18) Welcome and speed round questions. 

(11:18) How minds change vs. how to change minds.

(14:35) How is elaboration different from learning? 

(27:27) Mini Grooving Session on the difference between beliefs, opinions and attitudes.

(34:09) Why do you want to change someone’s mind?

(41:03) The moment David realized he should question why, not just how to change minds.

(52:55) Mini Grooving Session on why to change minds.

(57:27) Why some see the dress as gold & white and some see it as blue & black.

(1:18:28) Mini Grooving Session on the dress and the crocs.

(1:22:15) Truth is tribal. 

(1:35:33) Mini Grooving Session on having a social safety net.

(1:40:38) What was the catalyst for David becoming interested in conspiracy theories?

(1:46:19) How to get people off the conspiratorial loop?

(1:51:23) What musical artists would David take to a desert island?

© 2022  Behavioral Grooves

David McRaney’s book, “How Minds Change: The Surprising Science of Belief, Opinion, and Persuasion”: https://amzn.to/3NvGMPp 

David McRaney: https://www.davidmcraney.com/ 

You Are Not So Smart Podcast: https://youarenotsosmart.com/podcast/ 

Why We Fight WWII Films: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_We_Fight 

Hugo Mercier “The Enigma of Reason”: https://amzn.to/3H1UoiN 

Episode 53, John Sweeney, Everything Is a Story: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/john-sweeney-everything-is-a-story/ 

“SURFPAD”- Exploring the roots of disagreement with crocs and socks: https://blog.pascallisch.net/exploring-the-roots-of-disagreement-with-crocs-and-socks/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=exploring-the-roots-of-disagreement-with-crocs-and-socks 

Wallisch, Pascal & Karlovich, Michael. (2019). Disagreeing about Crocs and socks: Creating profoundly ambiguous color displays: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/335127865_Disagreeing_about_Crocs_and_socks_Creating_profoundly_ambiguous_color_displays

Take the crocs and socks test: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/crocPerception 

The dress: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dress 

Episode 178, Kwame Christian On Compassionate Curiosity, Social Justice Conversations, and Cinnamon Toast Crunch: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/kwame-christian-on-compassionate-curiosity-social-justice-conversations-and-cinnamon-toast-crunch/ 

Change blindness: https://youarenotsosmart.com/2009/11/06/change-blindness/ 

Radiohead “No Surprises”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5CVsCnxyXg 

Colin Stetson “Spindrift”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJHr2DlRog8 

Have you ever wondered how your childhood experiences influence your adult relationships and behaviors?

This week, Kurt and Tim jump into attachment theory with renowned clinical psychologist Dr. Judy Ho. They explore the different types of secure and insecure attachment, and how our early bonds with primary caregivers shape our developmental years and influence our adult behavior and relationships. Dr. Ho explains how attachment styles can influence our worldview, and how these styles manifest in our self-talk and stress responses.  Our past doesn’t define our future, and the discussion highlights the importance of understanding and healing our attachment issues at any age. 

And it wouldn’t be Behavioral Grooves without some music! Dr. Ho joins Tim and Kurt (mostly Tim) in a conversation about the therapeutic role music has on emotional regulation and self-care.  Music can help replace unhelpful patterns with healthier ones and can help ground us and promote mindfulness. 

Mindfulness is key in this week’s Grooving Session, with Kurt and Tim emphasizing the importance of slowing down and being mindful in daily life.  Through personal anecdotes and reflections, they wrap up the episode with actionable advice and valuable strategies for personal growth and emotional well-being. 

© 2024 Behavioral Grooves

[5:27] Intro and speed round

[8:19] Attachment theory and its impact on adult behavior

[10:50] Attachment styles and relationships

[15:53] Understanding attachment styles and their impact

[25:07] Self-help techniques to manage emotions

[34:29] The importance of mindfulness

[42:51] Music’s role in self-care

[50:07] Grooving Session: Attachment theory, self-regulation, and mindfulness

© 2024 Behavioral Grooves

The New Rules of Attachment: How to Heal Your Relationships, Reparent Your Inner Child, and Secure Your Life Vision

APA Definition of Attachment Theory

Dr. Judy Ho

Penn State Worry Questionnaire (Free-Abridged)

Mindfulness Meditation

LaFreniere LS, Newman MG. “Exposing Worry's Deceit: Percentage of Untrue Worries in Generalized Anxiety Disorder Treatment,” Behavioral Therapy. 2020 May; 51(3):413-423. doi: 10.1016/j.beth.2019.07.003. Epub 2019 Jul 17. PMID: 32402257; PMCID: PMC7233480. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7233480/ 

Aretha Franklin “Think”

John Lennon “Stand By Me”

What if we were so optimistic, nothing ever felt like an obstacle, only an opportunity? As an unapologetic optimist, Patreon page. If donating isn’t an option for you, don’t worry, you can write us a podcast review which will help promote our show to other listeners. Thank you.

(4:07) Welcome and speed round questions.

(7:06) Should we rewrite the American constitution?

(11:17) Paul is affected by SIPO. What is it?

(15:14) Going from hating himself to loving himself.

(19:32) How can we transform our neuroplasticity?

(25:24) Love all, serve all.

(27:58) Four global initiatives Paul is involved in.

(29:52) How climate transformation is possible.

(36:49) Paul’s travel to 62 countries and how it's influenced his musical taste.

(43:18) An optimistic Grooving session with Kurt and Tim.

© 2022  Behavioral Grooves

Dr. Paul Zeitz: www.drpaulzeitz.org  

Opinion Science Podcast: https://opinionsciencepodcast.com/ 

Alicia Keys: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alicia_Keys 

Desmond Tutu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Tutu 

Dr. Paul Zeitz's books:

• "Waging Optimism; Ushering in a New Era of Justice: Part 1: Ensuring the Survival and Flourishing of Humanity": https://amzn.to/3rZcsmC
• "Waging Justice: A Doctor's Journey to Speak Truth and Be Bold": https://amzn.to/3IJPQxm

Global Carbon Removal Partnership: https://www.carbonremovalpartnership.net/ 

Julie Battilana, Episode 288, “The Steps Needed To Empower the Powerless”: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/steps-to-empower-the-powerless/ 

John A. List, Episode 296, Fail to Scale: Why Good Research Doesn’t Always Make Great Policy: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/fail-to-scale-john-a-list/ 

Alia Crum: https://profiles.stanford.edu/alia-crum 

Shawn Anchor, “The Happiness Advantage: The Seven Principles of Positive Psychology That Fuel Success and Performance at Work”: https://amzn.to/3NPMrQ4 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Robert Goulet “The Impossible Dream”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5H7lZMuUCM 

Nina Simone “Consummation”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is-gdWIBgHo

Flavors of Gratefulness – 120 versions of Modah Ani: https://www.rabbishefagold.com/hebrew_chant/modah_ani_app/

Shulem “Avinu Malkeinu”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27HaHpaFEC8&ab_channel=ShulemVEVO

Many of us struggle with the demands of parenting. Our response to feeling overwhelmed can be to try and control our kids’ behavior. But guest Sue Donnellan challenges us to lessen our parenting load by giving our children more control, more responsibility and ultimately more respect. While this might go against our instincts, when we take ownership of our own behavior, rather than controlling our kids', we will become happier parents with children able to learn from their mistakes.

Sue Donnellan is the recent author of “Secrets to Parenting Without Giving a F^ck: The Non-Conformist Playbook to Raising Happy Kids Without Public Meltdowns, Power Struggles, & Punishments”. With the surprise arrival of her triplets, Sue had suddenly found herself parenting 4 young kids while also running her own business. She walks us through the moment that radically changed her parenting style, and how she transformed herself into a "reformed yeller". Over the years, Sue's journey of discovery has turned her into a parenting specialist who is known for restoring harmony to homes.

Please note that because of the title of our guest’s book on this episode, there is a lot of colorful language used throughout the podcast. While it’s an episode about parenting, you may want to tune in to this one, away from little ears!

At Behavioral Grooves we really value all of our listeners. If you want to demonstrate your support for our show, you can donate to our work through Patreon. We also love reading reviews of the podcast, and frequently read these out on the show.

(3:44) Welcome and speed round questions.

(8:49) What is parenting without giving a f^ck?

(11:53) Sues’ parenting journey and why she wrote the book.

(16:36) Why do parents struggle to let go of control?

(19:00) What is The Magic Mantra?

(22:32) Choice architecture in parenting.

(26:04) Dealing with parental guilt.

(29:44) What is 360 decision making?

(35:54) The 4 Fs of parenting.

(39:53) What music would Sue take to a desert island?

(45:09) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim about parenting.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

Sue Donnellan’s book: “Secrets to Parenting Without Giving a F^ck: The Non-Conformist Playbook to Raising Happy Kids Without Public Meltdowns, Power Struggles, & Punishments”: https://amzn.to/3wR0Llw 

Follow Sue Donnellan on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn and Twitter with the handle @AskMomParenting

The Zeigarnik Effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeigarnik_effect

Sesil Pir, Episode 281, Why Leaders Need To Care For People, Not Manage Them: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/care-for-people-not-manage-them/ 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon:  https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Sade “Smooth Operator”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TYv2PhG89A 

Sade “Cherish The Day”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKhfoKOTwZY 

World-class pediatric surgeon, social scientist, and best-selling author Dr Dana Suskind MD talks about the Three T's (tune in, talk more and take turns) that parents can do to nurture their children’s brain development and the key ways that society needs to change to invest in the next generation.

Dana is the founder and co-director of the TMW Center for Early Learning & Public Health, and Professor of Surgery and Pediatrics at the University of Chicago. She is also the director of the Pediatric Cochlear Implant Program, and is recognized as a national thought leader in early language development. Her research is dedicated to optimizing foundational brain development and preventing early cognitive disparities and their lifelong impact. Honestly, when she talks about raising kids…we need to listen.

Most recently, Dana has released a fantastic new book detailing the powerful blueprint that society should be taking to meet the developmental needs of all children. We talk more with Dana about why she wrote Parent Nation: Unlocking Every Child's Potential, Fulfilling Society's Promise and how the status quo for parenting in America is not serving parents and children well.

If you enjoy Dana’s episode on Behavioral Grooves Podcast, you can support our work through our Patreon page. You can also write a short podcast review on your podcast player; doing so helps other listeners find our show.

(4:58) Welcome and speed round questions. 

(9:25) How has American individualism influenced the way we parent our children?

(13:05) How significant is the lack of parental leave in the US?

(17:37) Internalizing parental guilt.

(19:28) Reframing your self talk around raising your kids. 

(21:17) The influence of the pandemic on parenting.

(25:19) What has been the impact of the pandemic on children?

(27:28) Why language is so important to early development.

(30:20) The 3 Ts of foundational brain development.

(31:56) The personal trauma that influenced Dana’s writing.

(34:19) What positive support systems are there to help parents?

(39:31) Dana’s ambition to write behavioral economics music!

(41:26) Grooving Session discussing Parent Nation.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

“Parent Nation: Unlocking Every Child's Potential, Fulfilling Society's Promise” by Dana Suskind MD:  https://amzn.to/3wD8YIQ 

John List, Episode 296: Fail to Scale: Why Good Research Doesn’t Always Make Great Policy: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/fail-to-scale-john-a-list/ 

Linda Babcock, Episode 293: Women Do Too Much Non-Promotable Work: How To Say No More with Linda Babcock: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/women-do-too-much/ 

Meryl Streep: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meryl_Streep 

John Amos Comenius: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Amos_Comenius 

Caitlyn Collins, Washington University: https://sociology.wustl.edu/people/caitlyn-collins 

TMW Center for Early Learning + Public Health at the University of Chicago: https://tmwcenter.uchicago.edu/ 

“Thirty Million Words: Building a Child's Brain” by Dana Suskind MD: https://amzn.to/3wJ1MLl 

Dolly Chugh, Episode 230: How Good People Fight Bias with Dolly Chugh: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/cristina-bicchieri-social-norms-are-bundles-of-expectations/ 

David Yokum, Episode 282: Why Applying Behavioral Science to Public Policy Delivers Better Policy: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/behavioral-science-in-public-policy/ 

Cristina Bicchieri, Episode 102: Social Norms are Bundles of Expectations: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/cristina-bicchieri-social-norms-are-bundles-of-expectations/ 

Support Behavioral Grooves Patreon page: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Johnny Cash “I Walk The Line”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5126CibNsk 

Lots of us have good ideas, some even back their ideas up with successful research. So why do these good ideas fail to scale into great, big ideas? John A. List shares the personal example of his highly successful kindergarten reform in South Side Chicago which then didn’t scale across the nation. His intrigue into this case led him to pen a phenomenal new book about scalability, “The Voltage Effect”.

John A. List, is a Professor of Economics at the University of Chicago as well as recently becoming the first ever Chief Economist at Walmart. Our conversation with John touches on the ambition he has to change the world for the better in this new role at Walmart. But the primary drive for our chat was to discuss his great new book “The Voltage Effect: How to Make Good Ideas Great and Great Ideas Scale”. Listen in to learn about the concept of scalability and why it is so hard to go from, “the petri dish’ (as he puts it) to successful broad scale programs. 

As is often the case, we round off our episode with a desert island music selection from our guest. And John’s very thoughtful consideration of the question yields a top notch selection of musical artists. Don’t miss this part of the discussion!

Regular listeners to Behavioral Grooves might consider donating to our work through our Patreon page. Or you can also support us by writing a podcast review on your podcast player; doing so helps scale our audience!

(6:06) Welcome and speed round questions.

(11:03) Why John named his book The Voltage Effect.

(13:41) John’s involvement in the Chicago Heights Early Childhood (CHECC) school project.

(23:05) What biases influence people?

(26:29) How Nancy Reagan’s good intentions are an example of scaling failure.

(30:52) Scaling behavioral science.

(39:17) How is John going to change the world as Chief Economist at Walmart?

(43:33) How can insights from charity be applied to other sectors?

(54:55) John’s desert island music selection.

(1:04:11) A “High Voltage” Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

John A. List’s book, “The Voltage Effect: How to Make Good Ideas Great and Great Ideas Scale”: https://amzn.to/3a0GOjh 

“Just Say No” campaign: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_Say_No

Anna Karenina: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Karenina

“Stakes Matter in Ultimatum Games” (2011) by Steffen Andersen, Seda Ertaç, Uri Gneezy, Moshe Hoffman and John List: https://econpapers.repec.org/paper/hhscbsnow/2011_5f001.htm 

George Lowenstein, Episode 67 “George Loewenstein: On a Functional Theory of Boredom”: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/george-loewenstein-on-a-functional-theory-of-boredom/ 

“Parent Nation: Unlocking Every Child's Potential, Fulfilling Society's Promise” by Dana Suskind:  https://amzn.to/3wD8YIQ 

Sam Tatam, Episode 295 “For Revolutionary Solutions, Look To Evolutionary Ideas”: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/evolutionary-ideas-sam-tatam/ 

Scott Jeffrey, Episode 3: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/bg-3-scott-jeffrey-phd-monmouth-university/ 

Thomas Steenburgh, Episode 51: “How to Sell New Products”: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/thomas-steenburgh-how-to-sell-new-products/ 

To leave Apple podcast review: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/behavioral-grooves-podcast/id1303870112

To support Behavioral Grooves via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

The Beatles “Don’t Let Me Down”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCtzkaL2t_Y 

Freddie Mercury/Queen “These are the Days of Our Lives”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB4K0scMysc 

Johnny Cash “Ring Of Fire”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCMz70Fm5pA 

Marty Robbins “El Paso”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ig2GF1sZSEA 

The Red Hot Chili Peppers “Under The Bridge”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwlogyj7nFE 

AC/DC “High Voltage”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nnjh-zp6pP4 

Gordon Lightfoot “If You Could Read My Mind”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5tr_L31StI 

Kris Kristofferson “For the Good Times”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX094Nn4L_Y 

Waylon Jennings “I’ve Always Been Crazy”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI2MhAGtZgE 

Fleetwood Mac “Dreams”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3ywicffOj4 

Stevie Nicks “Stand Back”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwS9BIqbffU 

White Stripes “We’re Going to Be Friends”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKfD8d3XJok

Innovation doesn’t always require inventing new solutions to problems; chances are that evolution has already solved the issue with a unique design. This simple notion of looking to the natural world for design inspiration is called biomimicry. Guest, Sam Tatam uses biomimicry in his creative application of behavioral science.

Friend of the show, Sam Tatam is the author of a fantastic new book called Evolutionary Ideas: Unlocking ancient innovation to solve tomorrow’s challenges. Sam is the Global Principal and Head of Behavioural Science at Ogilvy Growth & Innovation. From New York to Nairobi, Sam has led behavior change projects across virtually every category and continent. Today, he leads a global team of talented psychologists and behavioral economists to develop interventions and shape the communications of some of the world’s most influential brands and organizations.

Listen in to our conversation with Sam to learn about biomimicry, The Theory of Inventive Problem Solving (TRIZ) and the Goal Gradient theory. But our conversation isn't all "sciency", we also have a light hearted chat about the musical artist Sam went to Italy with, and about the differences in pubs between London and Sydney.

If you are a regular listener to Behavioral Grooves, please consider donating to our work through Patreon. We also absolutely love reading your reviews on the podcast, which help others find our content.

(4:59) Welcome and speed round questions.

(13:23) What is biomimicry? 

(18:20) TRIZ (Theory of Inventive Problem Solving) and evolutionary thinking.

(25:32) How language can be a liberator for innovation. 

(29:28) Categorizing biases into patterns.

(34:58) What is the Goal Gradient Theory and why isn’t it applied more often?

(39:14) Five psychological contradictions.

(47:26) What music would Sam take to a desert island?

(51:03) Kurt and Tim discussing Sam’s Evolutionary Ideas.

© 2021 Behavioral Grooves

Sam Tatam's Book: "Evolutionary Ideas: Unlocking ancient innovation to solve tomorrow’s challenges": https://amzn.to/3I6ANwX 

Episode 44, Sam Tatam: Smelling the Brand: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/sam-tatam-smelling-the-brand/ 

Episode 107: Rory Sutherland: The Opposite of a Good Idea is a Good Idea: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/rory-sutherland-the-opposite-of-a-good-idea-is-a-good-idea/ 

Biomimicry: https://biomimicry.org/what-is-biomimicry/ 

TRIZ: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIZ 

Shinkansen, Japanese speed train: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinkansen 

Generich Altshuller: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genrich_Altshuller 

Episode 215, Leidy Klotz: Secrets of Subtraction: Donut Holes, Lego and Bruce Springsteen: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/subtraction-with-leidy-klotz/ 

Episode 289: Why Not All Nudges Work ”In The Wild” | Nina Mazar PhD & Dilip Soman PhD: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/why-not-all-nudges-work-in-the-wild-nina-mazar-dilip-soman/ 

Baader–Meinhof phenomenon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_illusion 

Episode 202, How Chaning Jang Works Around Not Being WEIRD: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-chaning-jang-works-around-not-being-weird/ 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

David Gray “Sail Away”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oyBnvibWEY 

Powderfinger “My Happiness”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM_eb0vVo0k 

A goal is a stepping stone on the way to a higher achievement, not an end point. By reframing our expectations, we can transform our mindset into an incredibly powerful psychological tool.

Our guest on this episode is Paul Szyarto who has overcome some heartbreaking personal adversity to become an incredibly successful entrepreneur.

Paul speaks with us in detail about the blind spots entrepreneurs experience and why many organizations fail because they don’t hire the right people with the right talent. And he reminds us that the most challenging thing to do in times of chaos is to focus on something meaningful, something beyond the current chaos of that current challenge.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

(2:50) Welcome and speed round questions.

(5:11) Goals are not end points, they are stepping stones to a higher achievement.

(8:47) The psychology of human capital.

(12:16) Why most businesses fail. 

(13:31) Paul’s secret tips for entrepreneurs. 

(16:23) What is the Never Broken mindset?

(19:51) The barriers to feeling grateful.

(21:14) Does Paul’s playlist reflect his Never Broken mindset?

(22:40) Grooving session with Kurt and Tim discussing mindsets.

Never Broken Mindset: https://www.neverbrokenmindset.com/ 

Episode 277, Daniel Pink, No Regrets? Really? Why Regrets Actually Bring Us Hope: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/why-regrets-bring-us-hope/ 

Episode 276, Ayelet Fishbach, How To Stay Motivated So You Exceed Your Goals: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/motivation-to-exceed-your-goals/ 

Women are more likely to volunteer for a non-promotable task at work, than men. But why do women volunteer themselves more? What repercussions does this have on women and on the organization? And how can workplaces fix this inequity?

Non promotable tasks (NPTs) are the pieces of work that are good for the organization, but not so good for the individual. It’s the request from your boss to organize the holiday party, or the task of ordering sandwiches for the team lunch, or the mission of being on the review committee. And the problem, says Linda and her co-authors, is that women are doing the vast majority of these non-promotable tasks for no reason other than people expect them to.

Linda Babcock is a longtime friend of the show, having first appeared on Behavioral Grooves Podcast back in April 2019 to talk about promoting the careers of women in the workplace. Since then, Linda has co-authored a fantastic new book advocating further for women in the workplace; “The No Club: Putting a Stop to Women's Dead-End Work”. Having formed “The No Club” with a group of other women, in an effort to regain balance in their workload, Linda and her fellow group members have written about their personal experience of learning to say NO to NPTs. 

Make no mistake, Linda’s book is not a guide for women, it is a guide for anyone who works with or knows women! Weaving practical tips into ever chapter of the book, Linda and her co-authors outline clear steps in how to avoid and fix the problem of workload inequity. And the benefits aren’t limited to women either - organizations can improve their productivity and profitability as a result of addressing these problems.

In this episode with Linda we relish the opportunity to discuss with her the practical ways women, men and organizations can rebalance the workload of NPTs. If you are a regular listener to the show, please consider support our work through our Patreon page. If donating isn’t an option for you, don’t worry, you can’t write us a podcast review on your podcast player which will help other listeners find our show.

(4:40) What are non promotable tasks (NPTs)?

(7:47) Why do women do more NPTs?

(12:50) Is there racial inequity with NPTs as well?

(14:11) Tips for how women can say no to NPTs.

(18:31) How can organizations fix the problem of NPTs?

(21:27) How men can change the NPT culture at work.

(25:55) Linda’s personal story of forming The No Club.

(27:45) Linda’s desert island music choices.

(31:21) Grooving session with Kurt and Tim on how to improve the culture of NPTs at your work..

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

“The No Club: Putting a Stop to Women's Dead-End Work”: https://amzn.to/3KPuUFM 

Episode 62, Linda Babcock: Helping Women Build Better Careers at Carnegie Mellon: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/linda-babcock-helping-women-build-better-careers-at-carnegie-mellon/ 

Episode 67, George Loewenstein: On a Functional Theory of Boredom: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/george-loewenstein-on-a-functional-theory-of-boredom/

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Leading Human Workbook and Playbook: https://www.behavioralgrooves-store.com/products/copy-of-the-leading-human-playbook-workbook-package

The Rolling Stones “You Can’t Always Get What You Want”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3XzO_cOOVU 

Bruno Mars “24K Magic”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqyT8IEBkvY&ab_channel=BrunoMars 

The Mountain Goats “Golden Boy Peanuts”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIVNv9XZgG8&ab_channel=elijahlupe 

The culture we live in has an invisible influence over our individual and collective behaviors. The tendency towards openness or order in a society is expressed by Michele Gelfand, as the looseness or tightness of a culture. How loose or tight a country is can be correlated to the amount of threat the nation has faced in the past, and in turn, can indicate how its people will respond to a new threat, such as a global pandemic.

Michele Gelfand is Professor of Organizational Behavior at the Stanford Graduate School of Business and Professor of Psychology by Courtesy at Stanford University. She wrote her book “Rule Makers, Rule Breakers: Tight and Loose Cultures and the Secret Signals That Direct Our Lives” in the era before COVID. Despite that she astutely addressed how tight and loose nations would respond to the threat of a global pandemic. We were honored to have the time to chat more with Michele about this topic and many others in this episode. 

(5:49) Welcome and speed round questions.

(6:27) How culture influences our behavior. 

(10:26) How the threat to a nation influences how tight and loose cultures are.

(13:21) What Bert and Ernie can teach us about our tight and loose personalities.

(16:27) What factors influence our default tendency to be tight or loose people? 

(20:21) The global threat of the pandemic and how loose and tight cultures responded. 

(28:48) What Ukraine has taught us about national identity.

(30:47) How can societies maximize both order and openness?

(35:02) Can organizations instigate flexible tightness?

(39:42) Do we have blind spots on how open we are?

(43:26) How values and attitudes influence your behaviors in different cultures.

(47:41) What nudge worked to encourage mask wearing among Republicans and Democrats?

(51:50) The music that influences Michele’s work.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

Michele Gelfand: www.michelegelfand.com

“Rule Makers, Rule Breakers: Tight and Loose Cultures and the Secret Signals That Direct Our Lives” book by Michele Gelfand: https://amzn.to/37O7OSC 

Mindset Quiz: How tight or loose are you? www.michelegelfand.com/tl-quiz 

Episode 266, Sandra Sucher, Trust: The Four Key Steps to Genuinely Build It: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/four-key-steps-to-build-trust/ 

Episode 102, Cristina Bicchieri, Social Norms are Bundles of Expectations: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/cristina-bicchieri-social-norms-are-bundles-of-expectations/ 

Oscar Peterson “C Jam Blues”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTJhHn-TuDY 

Les McCann “A Bag of Gold”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50bGvY3Roj0 

Dave Brubeck “Take Five”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmDDOFXSgAs 

Bach “Brandenburg Concertos”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCPM8DEsvmc

Processes decrease our cognitive load and increase our productivity. On Behavioral Grooves we have talked with out guests a lot about habits and routines, but not so much about the processes behind them. In this bitesize episode we discuss the psychological benefits of using processes and how you can leverage them in your life.

To illustrate the use of processes to achieve different outcomes, we are joined by both a practitioner and a researcher on this episode. Joseph R. Keebler is a Researcher and a Professor of Human Factors and Behavioral Neurobiology at Embry Riddle Aeronautical University in Florida. He has done some really amazing work on the use of processes and checklists for improving performance.

Our practitioner guest is Peter M. Krask, who is an artist and coach based in New York City. Peter helps people maximize their creative and non creative output. By tapping into processes, he will share how processes from one aspect of our lives can be used to help us work through new and unfamiliar tasks in other parts of our lives.

(3:29) How processes reduce our cognitive load.

(7:38) You can use the same process but get a different outcome. 

(14:50) Being intentional creates better processes.

(16:50) Flexible goals are motivational.

(20:14) Summary of what we’ve learnt.

© 2021 Behavioral Grooves

Joseph R. Keebler, PhD: https://faculty.erau.edu/Joseph.Keebler 

Peter M. Krask: https://www.petermkrask.com/ 

PMK Creativity Guide: https://www.pmkcreativityguide.com/ 

Episode 128, Wendy Wood, PhD: Habits, Productivity and Being Gentle with Yourself: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/covid-19-crisis-wendy-wood-phd-on-habits-productivity-and-being-gentle-with-yourself/ 

Episode 232, Katy Milkman: How to Make Healthy Habits that Actually Last: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/katy-milkman-habits-that-last/ 

Episode 171, Roy Baumeister: Self Control, Belonging, and Why Your Most Dedicated Employees Are the Ones To Watch Out For: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/self-control-belonging-and-why-your-most-dedicated-employees-are-the-ones-to-watch-out-for-with-roy-baumeister/ 

Episode 276, Ayelet Fishbach, PhD: How To Stay Motivated So You Exceed Your Goals: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/motivation-to-exceed-your-goals/

Transporting humans from A to B is about more than just speed, efficiency and duration. Comfort, Wi-Fi access, entertainment and our habits, among many other factors, influence our choice of transportation. As we become increasingly aware of the way our travel decisions affect climate change, how can behavioral science positively impact the journeys we make?

Let our entertaining discussion with Pete Dyson and Rory Sutherland take you on a journey through their new book, “Transport for Humans: Are We Nearly There Yet?” Pete is the Principal Behavioural Scientist at the UK Department for Transport and has paired up with Rory who needs little introduction to many behavioral science enthusiasts. The vice chairman of Ogilvy UK and the co-founder of its Behavioural Science Practice, Rory is also a guest on one of the most popular ever episodes of Behavioral Grooves, Episode 107: The Opposite of a Good Idea is a Good Idea.

Our episode, along with the book, appeals to the “frustrated but optimistic traveler.” We hope listening helps you reframe your journey.

(3:23) Welcome to Pete and Rory with speed round questions.

(9:05) Our transport preferences are all different, so the market should reflect that.

(13:36) The book for the frustrated but optimistic traveler.

(15:30) What do travelers value? 

(20:27) How does human nature affect our use of transport? 

(22:37) How passenger technology has influenced train journeys.

(24:51) The consequences of journeys on climate change.

(26:31) Transportation challenges in the US.

(35:56) Thinking holistically, Zoom is an example of transportation. 

(39:01) Rebranding a bus route increases ridership.

(43:39) Listening to music while cycling or commuting? 

(49:52) Grooving Session on how Pete and Rory transported our thinking!

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

“Transport for Humans: Are We Nearly There Yet?” by Pete Dyson and Rory Sutherland: https://amzn.to/3KeWM6U 

Episode 107, Rory Sutherland: The Opposite of a Good Idea is a Good Idea: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/rory-sutherland-the-opposite-of-a-good-idea-is-a-good-idea/ 

George Monbiot: https://www.monbiot.com/ 

Episode 287, Nick Epley: Why Talking To Strangers Is Actually Good For Your Wellbeing: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/talking-to-strangers/ 

Have you ever struggled with the pitfalls of imposter syndrome in the workplace? Been wracked with self-doubt when leading your teams?

Join Kurt and Tim as they dive into these topics and many more with Martin Gonzalez, co-author of "The Bonfire Moment." They explore the intricacies of leadership, team dynamics, and overcoming obstacles in startups. Martin shares his expertise on uniting teams to solve problems through a unique workshop process and identifies common traps that founders often encounter.

Listen in as Martin opens up about his journey with self-doubt and imposter syndrome as an immigrant, providing a candid look at the human side of leadership. Kurt, Tim, and Martin cover various topics including leadership styles, organizational structures, the pitfalls of over-functioning teams, and achieving a productive work-life balance. While you might never love everything about your job, it is possible to enjoy most of your job if you manage your expectations and strategize for success. 

In startups, people issues need to take center stage, and the trio highlights the need for vulnerability, effective communication, and nurturing relationships within growing companies. If you’re looking for new motivation and a confidence boost at work, don't miss this insightful episode packed with valuable takeaways for anyone involved in the startup world!

© 2024 Behavioral Grooves

[5:58] Introduction and Speed Round

[10:16] What is a bonfire moment?

[14:02] Why soft skills are more important than soft skills

[17:54] Leadership styles and their impact on success

[22:37] Common start-up traps

[32:10] Startup myths, leadership, and best practices

[41:11] Overcoming blind spots and insecurities in leadership

[46:43] Imposter Syndrome and gender stereotypes

[55:04] Productivity, creativity, and music preferences

[1:01:14] Grooving Session: Leadership, emotional intelligence, and scaling business

© 2024 Behavioral Grooves

“The Bonfire Moment - Bring Your Team Together to Solve the Hardest Problems Startups Face” by Joshua Yellin and Martin Gonzales

About Martin

Culture Amp

How Corporate Leadership and Turnover Affect Startup Success

Eric Clapton “Wonderful Tonight”

Elton John “Your Song”

Mozart “Lacrimosa”

Read Nudge and you are inspired by how behavioral science works. But how can we translate and scale behavioral science effectively into policies and organizations? Indeed, can all academic research be applied “in the wild”?

Our two guests on this episode, Nina Mazar PhD and Dilip Soman PhD have co-edited a book “Behavioral Science in the Wild” that addresses exactly this. If you’re a practitioner, wanting to apply behavioral science in corporate, non-profit, or governmental work, we think you should check this book out. It’s full of excellent ideas for how to apply behavioral science in the wild!

Nina Mazar is a professor of marketing and co-director of the Susilo Institute for Ethics in the Global Economy at the Boston University Questrom School of Business. Her work focuses on topics ranging from ethics to social & environmental impact. She sits on the board of Irrational Labs and belongs to the team of scientists of the Behavior Change for Good Initiative at Wharton.  

Dilip Soman is a Canada Research Chair in Behavioural Science and Economics. His research is in the area of behavioral science and its applications to consumer wellbeing, marketing and policy. Together Nina and Dilip established the Director of the Behavioural Economics in Action Research Centre at Rotman [BEAR], on which Dilip still serves as director.

Our discussion with Nina and Dilip explores the journey of working on their book together and why it’s vital reading for all behavioral scientists. To summarize the discussion, as always, Tim and Kurt end the show with a Grooving Session to recap what we learn about behavioral science in the wild!

(5:04) Welcome to Dilip and Nina with speed round questions.

(10:01) Why do we need a book about applying behavioral science research “in the wild”.

(14:29) Why not all academic research is destined for the practitioner world? 

(18:04) Social norms matter but the right reference group is vital.

(21:35) Background variables influence behavioral science in the wild.

(29:27) Speed of testing can be a barrier.

(31:33) Overcoming the issue of scalability. 

(35:24) How your time frame can affect output.

(38:55) What to do when you don’t get the results you expect.

(44:07) Don’t get caught shopping in the nudge store.

(45:50) Music choices of Dilip and Nina.

(51:29) Grooving session about behavioral science in the wild.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

Leading Human™ Workbook and Playbook: https://www.behavioralgrooves-store.com/products/copy-of-the-leading-human-playbook-workbook-package

Leading Human™, Free Whitepaper Download: https://www.behavioralgrooves-store.com/collections/leading-human/products/human-centered-workplace-checklist

“Behavioral Science in the Wild (Behaviorally Informed Organizations)”: https://amzn.to/3xxAD04 

Nina Mazar: http://ninamazar.com/ 

Dilip Soman: https://www.rotman.utoronto.ca/FacultyAndResearch/Faculty/FacultyBios/Soman 

Episode 102, Cristina Bicchieri: Social Norms are Bundles of Expectations: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/cristina-bicchieri-social-norms-are-bundles-of-expectations/ 

Episode 232, Katy Milkman: How to Make Healthy Habits that Actually Last: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/katy-milkman-habits-that-last/ 

Episode 16, Nudge-A-Thon with Dr. Christina Gravert: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/nudge-a-thon-christina-gravert/ 

Episode 202, How Chaning Jang Works Around Not Being WEIRD: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-chaning-jang-works-around-not-being-weird/ 

Behavioural Economics in Action at Rotman (BEAR): https://www.rotman.utoronto.ca/facultyandresearch/researchcentres/bear 

Paul Simon “Graceland”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GP6a-7MP91g 

Mark Knopfler “What It Is”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGmtonlys5A 

Kishori Amonkar “Swaranjali”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-FuttzRlWE 

Dire Straits “Brothers in Arms”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhdFe3evXpk 

Supertramp “Take The Long Way Home”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLP0y-X4uYs 

Fleetwood Mac “Dreams”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3ywicffOj4

Subramaniam and Stephane Grappelli “Conversations”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFI4TzUDc-8&ab_channel=AhmadAlArabii

The 1988 Subramaniam-Bismillah Geneva: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGOp7APcuMs

The Cure “Just Like Heaven”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3nPiBai66M 

Kate Bush “Wuthering Heights”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1pMMIe4hb4 

Personality or wealth are often assumed to be prerequisites to gaining power, something that is only garnered by having control over others. An organization chart in a company, however, does not illustrate who has power within the workplace, it only tells you who has authority. And as we learn in this episode, authority and power are not the same.

By using workplace illustrations from the National Health Service (NHS) in the United Kingdom to a cigarette factory in France, Julie Battilana walks us through the precise definitions of power and authority. By understanding exactly what power is and how it really works, Julie breaks down the critical steps to successfully acquiring power and using it to disrupt hierarchies; by innovating, agitating and orchestrating. 

Julie Battilana is the Joseph C. Wilson Professor of Business Administration in the Organizational Behavior unit at Harvard Business School and the Alan L. Gleitsman Professor of Social Innovation at Harvard Kennedy School, where she is also the founder and faculty chair of the Social Innovation and Change Initiative.

We value support from our listeners through our Patreon page: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves. If donating isn’t an option for you, don’t worry, you can’t write us a podcast review on your podcast player which will help other listeners find our show. Thank you.

© 2022  Behavioral Grooves

(3:32) Welcome and speed round questions.

(7:29) Power and authority are NOT the same.

(11:59) Who are the most effective change makers?

(14:37) Power is having an influence over others but is also a freedom from the influence of others.

(16:15) How can we choose the right leaders?

(20:18) Empowering the powerless.

(25:57) The power of collectivism.

(30:17) Abuse of power by Putin.

(36:02) How technology plays a part in abuse of power.

(41:38) What checks on power are needed?

(45:29) Is there hope for the future? 

(52:20) What music does Julie listen to.

(54:55) Grooving Session discussing what we learnt from Julie.

Leading Human Workbook and Playbook: https://www.behavioralgrooves-store.com/products/copy-of-the-leading-human-playbook-workbook-package 

Groovy Snacks Newsletter: https://behavioralgrooves.com/newsletter-signup/ 

“Power, for All: How It Really Works and Why It's Everyone's Business” by Julie Battilana and Tiziana Casciaro: https://amzn.to/3tRykRM

Julie Battilana, PhD: https://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/profile.aspx?facId=382192 

Fragrance De Soie tea: https://www.mariagefreres.com/FR/2-rose-de-soie-T8669.html?fbclid=IwAR2Zl2GOegLbbuXY5HRgPOICdbkcfAAgcWRamd9mt4plFsgSL_pARoD__UM 

Vanessa Bohns, Episode 253. Why You Don‘t Need to be Powerful to be Influential: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/influence-vanessa-bohns/

LaTosha Brown: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaTosha_Brown 

Jean Rogers, founder of Sustainability Accounting Standards Board (SASB): https://rogersassociatesllc.com/index.php/about-me/ 

Social Innovation Change Initiative at Harvard Kennedy School: https://sici.hks.harvard.edu/ 

Barefoot College: https://www.barefootcollege.org/  

Stromae “Sante”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3QS83ubhHE

Do you strike up a conversation with a stranger on a plane or while waiting in line? If you don’t already, you will after listening to Nick Epley in this episode. Nick talks through his extensive research about talking to people we encounter and how it actually boosts our wellbeing. 

While many of us prefer engaging in some small talk with strangers, Nick advocates for the benefits of having a deep and meaningful conversation with people. The problem is, how do we actually start such a conversation with the person who just sat down next to us? Fear not, Nick delves into why we’re reluctant and how we can overcome our hesitation.

Nick Epley is the John Templeton Keller Professor of Behavior Science and Director of the Center for Decision Research at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business. He studies social cognition — how thinking people think about other thinking people — to understand why smart people so routinely misunderstand each other. Recently Nick has written the book “Mindwise: Why We Misunderstand What Others Think, Believe, Feel, and Want” and he talks in his interview about what he's working on next.

As always, hosts Kurt and Tim end the show with a light-hearted Grooving Session to summarize what we have learnt from our guest. I’m sure you will agree that Nick’s interview leaves us with lots of helpful insights. But if there is just one thing you take away from this episode, great listeners, is never hesitant to seize the opportunity to pay a compliment.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

(3:40) Welcome and speed round questions.

(4:57) Why it’s better to have a deep and meaningful conversation with a stranger?

(7:18) Why are we reluctant to talk to strangers about something meaningful?

(13:46) Why did Nick start studying undersociality? 

(21:06) What happens when strangers talk on a train?

(29:33) How do you start a conversation with a stranger?

(33:20) The benefits of a compliment.

(39:21) Nick’s work in the future.

(43:35) The mind-blowing way to get someone else’s perspective?

(47:49) What music influences Nick.

(51:24) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim discussing what we learned from Nick Epley.

Nicholas Epley: www.nicholasepley.com

“Mindwise: Why We Misunderstand What Others Think, Believe, Feel, and Want” by Nick Epley: https://amzn.to/3IodtLV

Gary Becker: https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/economic-sciences/1992/becker/facts/ 

Liz Dunn at University of British Columbia: https://psych.ubc.ca/profile/elizabeth-dunn/ 

Episode 220: How Do You Become Influential? Jon Levy Reveals His Surprising Secrets: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-to-be-influential-jon-levy/

Behavioral Grooves Patreon page: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Metallica “Master of Puppets”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnKhsTXoKCI 

David Tolk, piano player “Amazing Grace”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X24B_2TjPQ 

“All Creatures Great and Small” music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hLXxQPkAGk