Explore every episode of the podcast Bad People

Presenters Dr Julia Shaw and Amber Haque meet the world's most famous victim of romance fraud: Cecilie Fjellhoy. After exposing the so-called Tindler Swindler in a Netflix hit, Cecilie confronted him in person and set up a campaign to help other victims.

Cecilie's life changed radically after she swiped right on the Tinder profile of Simon Leviev.

He took her on a private jet on their first date, told her he was the son of a billionaire diamond dealer and seemed to live a jet set life. But though he dressed in designer clothes from head to toe, drove expensive cars and had an entourage that included a chauffeur and a bodyguard, the handsome Israeli was actually a convicted fraudster whose real name was Shimon Hayut.

Once he knew Cecilie had fallen in love with him, he told her his life was in danger and that he needed to stay alive. He maxed out her credit card immediately and then begged her to get more money. She managed to borrow nearly $200,000 which he promised to pay back but he never did. She ended up bankrupt and depressed while he moved on to defrauding other women.

She tells Julia and Amber about life after Netflix - and discusses the psychological tricks that romance fraudsters play.

Presenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Amber Haque Producer: Shabnam Grewal Executive Producer: Innes Bowen Unit Manager: Lucy Bannister Production Coordinator: Juliette Harvey Researcher: Rhiannon Cobb Mix Engineer: John Scott Recording Studio: 88Hertz Commissioning Editor: Dylan Haskins Assistant Commissioners: Izzy Lee-Poulton, Adam Eland and Sarah Green

In TV dramas, criminal profilers solve crimes that the police cannot. Presenters Dr Julia Shaw and Amber Haque look at a real life case. An anonymous blackmailer threatens acid attacks unless his demands for pornographic photos of female airline staff at Gatwick are met. The police are stumped. So, they call in a professor of criminal psychology. What he says astounds them. Further information: Julia refers in this episode to the following study: Analysing criminal profiling validity: Underlying problems and future directions. Rita Alexandra Brilha Ribeiro, Cristina Branca Bento de Matos Soeiro. International Journal of Law and Psychiatry Volume 74, January–February 2021, 101670 Cracker is a 1990s ITV drama series about a fictional criminal profiler. The series was produced by Granada Television, written by Jimmy McGovern and starred Robbie Coltraine. In August 2024, the series was available on ITVX. Jimmy McGovern appears in this June 2021 episode of Bad People, talking about another one of his crime dramas: Time. The Real Cracker was a documentary series produced by Oxford Films. It was inspired by the TV drama Cracker. A book based on the series was published in 2002 by Channel 4 Books: The Real Cracker: Investigating the Criminal Mind by Stephen Cook. Producer: Innes Bowen Editor: Philip Sellars Unit Manager: Lucy Bannister Production Coordinator: Juliette Harvey Researcher: Rhiannon Cobb Mix Engineer: John Scott Recording Studio: 88Hertz Commissioning Editor: Dylan Haskins Assistant Commissioners: Adam Eland and Sarah Green

The Central Park Five confess on video to police and appear on every front page in America. But why did they confess if it’s not true?

In this second episode of this two parter, Bad People hosts Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen explore how the police interview children. Should they be treated the same as adults? Or is there a better way to extract their testimony?

CREDITS

Presenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Lauren Armstrong-Carter Assistant Producer: Hannah Ward Editors: Anna Lacey and Richard Collings Music: Matt Chandler Production Co-ordinator: Jonathan Harris Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland

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Early one morning in July 2019, Brandon Clark used his online platform to share graphic photos with his followers, including a photo that appeared to show a woman’s bloodied torso, captioned “I’m sorry Bianca”.

Not long after this, police found Brandon lying on top of a green tarp. He had spray-painted the words “May you never forget me” on the ground. He had killed 17-year-old ‘micro-influencer’ Bianca Devins. Why did he choose to broadcast her murder? Sofie Hagen and Dr Julia Shaw discuss ‘e-girls’, research on jealousy and male proprietariness, and what we need to consider to avoid similar horrific acts happening in the future.

Warning: Contains strong language and references to violence and murder. Archive credits: This episode contains audio from WIBX's Keeler Show and eyewitness news Utica

Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Caroline Steel Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami Tzabar

Commissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason Phipps

Bad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds

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Charles Sobhraj is a convicted killer and the inspiration for the new BBC One drama, The Serpent. Julia and Sofie speak with producer Paul Testar to learn what it was about Sobhraj that inspired this show. Was it the nature of his crimes? His charm? Or something else? Julia and Sofie discuss Maslow’s hierarchy of needs and how this famous construct was partly inspired by hippie culture. Perhaps Maslow can help us better understand how Sobhraj appealed to so many people travelling abroad? Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to violence and murder.

Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producers: Caroline Steel Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami Tzabar

Commissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason Phipps

Bad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds

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When far-right terrorist Anders Breivik murdered 77 people, many of whom were children, court-appointed psychiatrists declared him insane. Many Norwegian members of the public were angry that a diagnosis of a psychotic disorder would mean he would not be held accountable for his crimes and might even be freed early. He told doctors that he was the leader of a military group at war with Norway, committed to racist, anti-Muslim ideas.

Breivik himself rejected the "insanity defence", insistent that he committed the mass murders with the aim of achieving high-profile media coverage at his trial. This episode of Bad People wrestles with the problem of giving media platforms to terrorists, radicalised by the internet

A second evaluation found him to be sane. This time psychiatrists said that his symptoms were due to a severe narcissistic personality disorder combined with pathological lying and therefore he was accountable for his actions.

22 July 2011 forever changed Norway's relationship with homegrown extremism and it's hoped that the knowledge gained by psychiatrists about such terrorists will help to prevent future attacks.

Warning: This episode contains descriptions terrorism, extreme violence and death, including the death of children.

Archive credits: This episode includes audio from the United Nations, TEDx Talks and BBC News

Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Paula McGrath Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami Tzabar

Commissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason Phipps

Bad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds

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On February 7th 2009, Australia experienced its worst natural disaster. The weeks-long intense heat and gale force winds culminated in 400 separate wildfires which ended up taking 173 lives.

In the town of Churchill, detectives began an investigation which led them to believe that one man, driving a sky-blue sedan, may be responsible for 10 of those deaths.

After the arrest, detectives quickly realised that the man in their custody was not who they thought they'd be dealing with.

On this episode of Bad People, presenters Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss wildfire arson, the dubious origin of the link between sex and fire and how we can tell when someone is malingering.

Archive credits: This episode includes audio from ABC, Inside The Mind of An Arsonist.

Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami Tzabar

Commissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason Phipps

Bad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds

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If a killer refuses to reveal where they’ve hidden a body – should they have to stay in prison?

Helen McCourt’s family campaigned for the UK to adopt an Australian-style “no body, no parole” law – but would it be adopted in time to stop the release of her killer?

In 1989 pub landlord Ian Simms was one of the first people in the UK to be convicted on DNA evidence without the victim's body having been found. Sentenced to at least 16 years in jail for Helen's murder, Simms still claims he's innocent.

The jury were convinced by forensic evidence such as traces of Helen's blood which were found in Simms' flat and car. An opal and pearl earring identical to one Helen was wearing when she went missing was also found in the boot of his car.

Although "no body, no parole" might act as a deterrent to some offenders who choose not to reveal where their victim's body is, we also hear hear about concerns that it might interfere with the goals of rehabilitating offenders and reducing re-offending. The 750,000 signatories to a petition supporting Helen's Law believe that the needs of families whose pain continues as long as they have no body to bury should be prioritised.

Helen's mum Marie McCourt hopes that one day she will be able to take flowers to Helen's grave.

Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producers: Paula McGrath and Caroline Steel Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami Tzabar

Commissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason Phipps

Bad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds

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There were signs that the former polo player Alexander Lewis Ranwell was unravelling in early 2019. He’d lost his job and his girlfriend, was living in a caravan and was no longer taking medication to treat his delusions or hallucinations. He’d been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia and had a history of substance abuse.

He was arrested after letting loose animals and attacking a farmer and later released by the police, despite his bizarre behaviour. A short walk from the train he took to Exeter he came across a house where the elderly resident had a note on his door: he was looking for accommodation for himself and his cat.

Suffering from delusions, Lewis Ranwell believed himself to be a policeman, hunting down paedophiles, and that a missing girl was being held prisoner in homes he randomly selected. In the two houses he visited three elderly men were found dead.

No one at Exeter Crown Court could remember the defence of insanity being used in a case before – so how difficult is it to prove?

In this episode of Bad People, presenters Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen explore the reality of paranoid schizophrenia, exposing some of the myths which exist in popular culture and stigmatise mental illness.

Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to murder and violence.

Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Paula McGrath Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami Tzabar

Commissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason Phipps

Bad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds

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An excavation reveals horrific truths about Robert Pickton.

The bodies of dozens of women are unearthed on a pig farm, many of whom are sex workers and indigenous. Pickton’s defence team argues that he has a low IQ and was used as a pawn.

On this episode of Bad People, presenters Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss how Canadian police failed indigenous women and talk to Professor Stephen Hart who worked with the prosecution in the Pickton case to discover what we can really know about one of Canada’s most notorious serial killers. This case is broken into two episodes. This is part two. We highly recommend you listen to part one before tuning into this episode.

Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to sexual violence and murder.

Archive credits: This episode includes audio from East Van Production’s documentary, The Pig Farm.

Reference: Sentencing decision: R v Robert William Pickton [2007] BCSC 2039

Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Caroline Steel Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami Tzabar

Commissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason Phipps

Bad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds

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Over 60 sex workers go missing in Vancouver. Robert Pickton is a pig farmer. There are stories of bloodied women's clothes on his farm and even a dead body hanging in a barn. But this isn’t enough for the police to search his property. Could he be to blame?

On this episode of Bad People, presenters Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss research on why people don’t always tell the truth and often retract police statements.

This case is broken into two episodes. This is part one.

Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to sexual violence and murder.

Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producers: Paula McGrath and Caroline Steel Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami Tzabar

Commissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason Phipps

Bad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds

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Hospitals are places of safety, where staff help people to get better. So the parents of four children left in the care of Beverley Allitt never imagined that she’d harm them. The 22 year old nurse was convicted of their murders and harming 9 others on Ward Four at the Grantham and Kesteven hospital in Lincolnshire in 1991.

Police worked out that Allitt was the only person present for all of the unexplained collapses and that she had reported the key to the insulin fridge missing.

Childhood friends and nurses she trained with later told of her self-harm and bizarre behaviour including finding faeces in the fridge. In this episode of Bad People, presenters Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss the self-harming seen in Munchausen Syndrome - and how it can develop into Munchausen by Proxy - where a caregiver induces or fabricates a child’s illness. They ask: could Allitt have been stopped earlier?

Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to violence against children.

Archive credits: This episode contains audio from Real Stories, Sky, ITV.

Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Paula McGrath Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami Tzabar

Commissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason Phipps

Bad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds

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People have been going missing from Toronto’s Gay Village since the 70s.

The gay community claims that the police are not taking the disappearances seriously enough.

The pieces start to fall into place when one man goes missing and leaves a diary entry for that day saying “Bruce”. Police survey a Bruce McArther, a gardener and mall Santa. When they see him enter his flat with another man, they break the door down only to find a man handcuffed to his bed. On this episode of Bad People, presenters Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen uncover why there are very few serial killers over the age of 40, and why people from vulnerable populations are less likely to be reported missing.

Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to sexual violence, and murder.

Archive credits: This episode includes audio from CBC, Global News and W5.

Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Caroline Steel Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami Tzabar

Commissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason Phipps

Bad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds

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It’s 9pm in New York City. More than thirty young men have gathered on the corner of 110th Street and 5th Avenue. They are attacking innocent people in Central Park. What they don’t know is that a woman will also be sexually assaulted, and that five of their friends will be convicted for a brutal crime they didn’t commit. The Central Park Five falsely confess on video to police. In this episode of Bad People, hosts Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen explore how well we know our right to silence, how much it is influenced by what we see on TV. They also ask: when does silence look like guilt?

CREDITS Presenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Lauren Armstrong-Carter Assistant Producer: Hannah Ward Editors: Anna Lacey and Richard Collings Music: Matt Chandler Production Co-ordinator: Jonathan Harris

Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland

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Murderers. Psychopaths. Sex offenders. Why do people do bad things? Bad People is back.

Warning: Contains strong language and references to sexual violence and murder.

Archive credits: This episode contains audio from CTV Television network and Global News.

Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producers: Paula McGrath and Caroline Steel Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami Tzabar

Commissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason Phipps

Bad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds

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Elizabeth Holmes is the world’s youngest self made female billionaire. But her nine billion dollar startup disintegrated when the truth came out.

On this episode of Bad People, presenters Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss how to tell if someone is trustworthy or not. Also, why we are so easily fooled by a pretty face and false promises.

Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to sexual violence and child abuse.

Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Caroline Steel Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami Tzabar

Commissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason Phipps

Bad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds

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In the small Danish town Tønder, a man is talking to a friend when the conversation takes a dark turn. His friend asks him whether he wants to have sex with an 11-year-old girl. He immediately alerts the police.

On this episode of Bad People, presenters Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss how violence is - and isn’t - passed down through generations. Also on the show, the psychology of child sexual abuse and exploitation, and why it’s so important to have difficult conversations about paedophilia.

Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to sexual violence and child abuse.

Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producers: Louisa Field and Caroline Steel Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami Tzabar

Commissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason Phipps

Bad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds

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Some 10 million tonnes of industrial waste has reportedly been dumped in a small Italian town over the past 30 years.

The local mafia is suspected of securing lucrative contracts to dispose of waste and then dumping it illegally.

Three decades ago doctors noticed that incidences of cancer in towns around the dumping site were on the rise.

But the dumping is still happening.

How can large scale crime like this take place right underneath our noses? What is it about green crime that makes us “ethically blind”?

Warning: This episode contains strong language.

Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producers: Louisa Field and Caroline Steel Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami Tzabar

Commissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason Phipps

Bad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds

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Two friends knock on Angie Dodge’s door and find her lying on the floor. She had been raped, stabbed and her throat cut. The police arrive, take DNA samples from the scene and start rounding up suspects.

Chris Tapp was 20 years old at the time and though his DNA did not match the crime scene samples, he was called in. A few questions turned into over 100 hours of interrogations and seven polygraph tests. By the end of it, Chris confesses to killing Angie – a crime he had no recollection of committing.

On this episode of Bad People, presenters Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss how you might end up confessing to a crime you didn’t commit.

Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to sexual violence and murder.

Archive credits: This episode contains audio from police tapes.

Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producers: Louisa Field and Caroline Steel Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami Tzabar

Commissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason Phipps

Bad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds

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NOTE – Discussion of this case was correct at the time of broadcast. An update – which includes the exoneration of the three boys – is outlined below.

Two six-year-old boys and a 5-year-old girl, Silje, are on a playground in the Norwegian town Trondheim. The next day Silje is found dead. The boys had punched and kicked the five-year-old girl before stripping off her clothes and leaving her to die. How does this Norwegian case, and it’s response, compare to the famous case of James Bulger in the UK?

At what age should we be held responsible for our actions? Nations struggle to decide how to answer this question, and some community responses shatter our expectations - for better or for worse.

In this episode of Bad People, presenters Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss the age-old debate of nature versus nurture.

Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to murder and child abuse.

Update: This case was reopened after Norwegian broadcaster NRK released a documentary series called ‘Murder in the Sledge’. It in, the investigation revealed that the boys were never formally questioned, and thus they were never interviewed by police while being fully informed of their rights. The resulting criticism led to the public prosecutor ordering a resumption of the case. On February 17th 2023, the public prosecutor stated that “on the basis of the investigation that has been carried out, we have not been able to conclude who inflicted violence on Silje.” The state concluded that the three boys who were blamed for the death of a five-year-old girl in Trondheim in 1994 are “to be considered innocent.”

Presenters: Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen

Producer: Louisa Field

Assistant producer: Simona Rata

Editor: Rami Tzabar

Music: Matt Chandler

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Archive credits: This episode contains audio from police tapes.

A man breaks into Jennifer Thompson’s apartment, severs her phone wires and rapes her. Jennifer studies his face, hoping to remember enough details so that she can identify him later.

In a police line-up, Jennifer is able to point out Ronald Cotton as her rapist and in two separate trials he is convicted of rape and burglary. He is sentenced to life in prison plus fifty-four years. It seems like the case is resolved. There’s only one problem: Cotton is innocent.

On this episode of Bad People, presenters Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss why we should all be weary of our memory when identifying a person of a different race.

Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to sexual violence.

Archive credits: This episode contains audio from CBS News and CDI (La Ciudad de Ias Ideas) International Festival.

CREDITS:

Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Louisa Field Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami Tzabar

Commissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason Phipps

Bad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds

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Police officer Gilberto Valle opens the door to find his house surrounded by the FBI. His wife had discovered gruesome stories of kidnap and cannibalism that Valle had written about more than 100 women in an online forum.

Among the stories, the wife found a detailed description of how Valle wanted to cook her alive and eat her. Valle argued that he never intended to hurt anyone and that it was all fantasy. He was sentenced to life in prison but was later released. He became known as the “cannibal cop”.

On this episode of Bad People, hosts Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss whether we should police people’s thoughts, and ask whether we should fear our own dark fantasies. What is the line between fiction and reality?

Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to murder, cannibalism and sexual violence.

Archive credits: This episode contains audio from Crime Watch Daily and HBO Documentary Films.

CREDITS:

Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Louisa Field Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami Tzabar

Commissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason Phipps

Bad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds

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John was home alone with his father when he suddenly remembers being abused as a child. In a fit of rage he strangles his father to death.

In 2017 John wrote to Julia from prison. He had an unnerving inkling – maybe he hadn't been abused by his father, maybe everything he thought he knew about why he killed his dad was wrong.

On this episode of Bad People, hosts Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss whether we can trust our own memories and the consequences of ‘false memories’. They discuss the work of professor Elizabeth Loftus who pioneered the work on false memories, as well as the research Julia has conducted on implanting false memories of committing crime.

Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to murder and child abuse.

CREDITS:

Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Louisa Field Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami Tzabar

Commissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason Phipps

Bad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds

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A high school house party is in full swing in the quiet town of Peachland, Canada. Suddenly, hysterical screams are heard. 16-year-old Ashlee Hyatt has been stabbed to death in the middle of the driveway.

Piece by piece we learn about the girl who is ultimately convicted of manslaughter, relating it to the story of the Canadian “Barbie” serial killer, Karla Homolka and notorious Hungarian countess Elizabeth Báthory.

Murder is a typically committed by men, and the victims are mostly other men. Globally, women represent less than 5 percent of perpetrators. On this episode of Bad People, presenters Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss when and how women kill.

Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to sexual violence and murder.

Archive credits: This episode includes audio from SkyTV, Castanet News and National Geographic.

CREDITS:

Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Louisa Field Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami Tzabar

Commissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason Phipps

Bad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds

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In 2015 a woman in Saskatoon was strangled by a belt. Did her friend do it?

She has been strangled by a belt that lies next to her body - the same belt her best friend was wearing in a photograph of the two of them that was posted on Facebook earlier that evening. What can really be learned by what we choose to post online? And what might cause a friendship to take a violent turn?

On this episode of Bad People, Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen explore the psychology of “breaking up” with friends, the role of social media for teens’ mental health, and why people so rarely murder their friends.

CREDITS Presenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Laura Northedge Assistant Producer: Hannah Ward Editor: Anna Lacey Music: Matt Chandler

Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland

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Clip: The He Lab “About Lulu and Nana: Twin Girls Born Healthy After Gene Surgery As Single-Cell Embryos” Audio clips: CBS News and Saskatoon StarPhoenix

In the summer of 1984 a serial killer was on the loose in Los Angeles. Richard Ramirez or the ‘night stalker’ as he would come to be known, broke into people’s houses as they slept and then proceeded to rape, torture and murder whoever was inside. He would sometimes draw satanic pentagrams on the victims’ bodies, and use their own blood to write messages on the wall.

During his trial, Ramirez gained a large group of admirers, so-called ‘murder-groupies’. He would go on to receive hundreds of letters while in prison and even got married while on death row. Ramirez is not alone in getting this kind of romantic attention. Cult leader Charles Manson, Norwegian mass murderer Anders Breivik and Danish killer Peter Madsen have all received fan-mail.

On this episode of Bad People, presenters Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen uncover why some women seek out romantic relationships with men who have committed horrific crimes.

Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to sexual violence, Satanism and murder.

Archive credits: This episode includes audio from DailyMotion, NBC Universal and KRON4.

CREDITS:

Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Louisa Field Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami Tzabar

Commissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason Phipps

Bad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds

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Murders. Sex offenders. Corporate psychopaths. Cannibals. This is a podcast about the people we consider to be the worst around.

For her role in the Moors Murders, Myra Hindley was for many years described as ‘‘the most hated woman in Britain’’. So when her escape plot from HMP Holloway in late 1973 is part-aided by then prison guard Patricia Cairns, there is dismay at why anyone would go to such lengths for someone convicted of Hindley’s crimes.

What was unearthed during the police investigation, however, was that Hindley and Cairns had established a relationship - not only through interactions within the prison, but through the deeper communication of letter writing that spanned some two years.

In this episode of Bad People, Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen explore how Hindley became an “unwitting architect” of whole-life sentences, and discuss the citizens who write to inmates. Why do people become prison pen pals and when is it unethical?

CREDITS Presenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Produced by Hannah Ward Editor: Anna Lacey Music: Matt Chandler Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland #BadPeople_BBC Bad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds.

In Winson Green, Birmingham a category B prison is fit to burst, and on the 9th of October 2018 it finally does. Armed with one syringe, three men set five hundred convicts free and over the next twelve hours the building is almost burnt to the ground.

The Winson Green riot was one of the largest prison mutinies for twenty-five years and leaves the public wondering how this could have happened.

In this episode of Bad People, Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen explore when prison riots become inevitable? What factors make violence more likely? And can PRISM prevent it?

CREDITS Presenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Lauren Armstrong-Carter Editors: Anna Lacey Music: Matt Chandler

Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland

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In 2015, fifteen-year-old Shamima Begum left the UK with two of her friends on a flight bound for Turkey. But the East London schoolgirls were not going on holiday. They were going to join thousands of recruits from across the globe in the Syrian city of Raqqa. They were going to join the so-called Islamic State. Four years later Shamima Begum, now nineteen, was found in a refugee camp and the UK Government revoked her citizenship, something she’s been trying to get back ever since. But what would make a teenager want to join a group like Islamic State? What were the “push and pull factors” linked to ISIS radicalisation?

On this episode of Bad People Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen are joined by Josh Baker, the journalist behind ‘The Shamima Begum Story’, where for the first time her account of what happened is investigated.

This episode contains clips from the BBC Radio Five Live podcast ‘I’m Not A Monster: The Shamima Begum Story’

CREDITS Presenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Lauren Armstrong-Carter Assistant Producer: Hannah Ward Editors: Anna Lacey Music: Matt Chandler

Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland #BadPeople_BBC

In 1861 William Mumler claims to capture a spirit of dead on camera and offers grieving people the chance to sit with a lost loved one, one last time.

These controversial photographs unleashed a debate about the nature of reality and truth and marked a cultural moment which questioned whether what we see can really be believed.

But is this a new problem? Are deepfakes forcing us to examine the same questions today?

On this episode of Bad People, Sofie Hagen and Dr Julia Shaw discuss dystopian futures, deep fake technology, the uncanny valley, false memories and ask whether the law can really keep up.

CREDITS Presenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Kate White and Lauren Armstrong-Carter Assistant Producer: Hannah Ward Editors: Anna Lacey Music: Matt Chandler

Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland

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It’s 1992 and Barry Kingston, a man with admitted paedophilic tendencies, is accused of indecently assaulting a child. The police have photographs and audio-tape to prove his involvement - and yet Kingston still pleads not guilty. The boy in the case explains he’d been drugged without his consent. But so, it turns out, had Kingston.

In this episode of Bad People, Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss the relationship between violent crime, drugs and alcohol, and the moral minefield of involuntary intoxication and drugged intent. Can you be convicted of a crime you committed while unknowingly under the influence?

CREDITS Presenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Hannah Ward Editors: Anna Lacey Music: Matt Chandler

Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland

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It’s 2007 in Perugia Italy. A body has been found, but the American suspect maintains her innocence. Amanda Knox spent 7 years in prison for a crime she didn’t commit, but the long path from conviction to acquittal led to her fluency in Italian and defending herself in court. In this episode, can we ever defend ourselves when we don’t speak the language? And when does bad translation lead to bad justice?

CREDITS Presenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Produced by Kate White and Lauren Armstrong-Carter Editor: Anna Lacey Music: Matt Chandler Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland #BadPeople_BBC Bad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds.

In April 2018, a sealed plastic bag is found tossed next to a dumpster in Coachella, USA. In it, seven tiny, squeaking, new-born puppies. CCTV footage of the puppy dumping culprit, Deborah Sue Culwell, sparked outrage.

On this episode of Bad People, we discuss animal welfare and cruelty, the new psychological categorisation Animal Hoarding Disorder (AHD), the link between animal cruelty and interpersonal violence, and why we often care so deeply about some animals (pets) while ignoring the suffering of others (livestock).

CREDITS Presenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Simona Rata Editors: Anna Lacey Music: Matt Chandler

Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland

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Bad People is back!

Criminal psychologist, Dr Julia Shaw, is joined by a new co-host: journalist and documentary maker Amber Haque.

The new season starts with a true crime story that went viral during lockdown.

Penny Jackson looked as if she was living the middle class retirement dream. Holidays and a retirement home by the sea.

But cooped up with her husband during lockdown, her anger got out of control. After a petty row about food she stabbed her husband to death. When police arrested for murder, she said, "Oh good." Video footage of her being taken into custody in her M&S pyjamas went viral.

Amber looks into the couple's lives for clues about what led to their fatal row. Julia and Amber discuss coercive control, toxic relationships and complex grief.

Presenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Amber Haque Producers: Ciaran Tracey and James Shield Executive Producer: Innes Bowen Unit Manager: Lucy Bannister Production Coordinator: Juliette Harvey Researcher: Rhiannon Cobb Mix Engineer: John Scott Recording Studio: 88Hertz Commissioning Editor: Dylan Haskins Assistant Commissioners: Adam Eland, Sarah Green and Izzy Lee-Poulton

Bobbie was eight months pregnant and shared the good news with her online community.

But because she met Lisa Montgomery, Bobbie would never have the future she hoped for. In one of the most horrific ways imaginable, Lisa steals her baby.

Lisa was the first woman to be put to death by the US government in 67 years. But did she deserve capital punishment? Is the death penalty ever justified? On this episode of Bad People, Sofie Hagen and Dr Julia Shaw discuss botched executions, lethal injections, and the UN's call for the global abolition of capital punishment.

CREDITS Presenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Simona Rata Editors: Anna Lacey and Martin Smith Music: Matt Chandler

Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland

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There was international outcry in 2011 when the celebrated Chinese artist Ai Weiwei was arrested at Beijing airport and imprisoned. The charges against him were vague. So what was Ai Weiwei really in prison for?

To begin to answer this, we need to understand the historical background: the Chinese Cultural Revolution.

Claiming to purge the country of 'impure' elements, students were encouraged to attack their teachers. Intellectuals were exiled. Books were burned. And the purge didn’t stop there.

On this episode of Bad People, Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen explore anti-intellectualism, and how politicians have exploited its appeal. What is the difference between intelligence and intellectualism? What can the anti-intellectualism scale teach us about the psychological origins of a lack of trust in experts?

And, what does all of this have to do with art?

CREDITS Presenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Laura Northedge Assistant Producer: Hannah Ward Editor: Anna Lacey Music: Matt Chandler Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland

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Presenter and journalist Sam Holder speaks to Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen about his new BBC podcast, Please Protect Abraham and whether we’re failing vulnerable witnesses.

Sam tells Julia and Sofie the story of Abraham Badru, a young boy who rescues a teenage girl from a violent sexual attack. But witnessing this crime changes his life forever, because now he’s a target too.

Together they examine what it means to be a witness when you need protection. What ‘special measures’ can be used to keep us safe? And are the measures even affective if you can get them in the first place?

All ten episodes of ‘Please Protect Abraham’ can be found on BBC Sounds now. CREDITS Presenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Lauren Armstrong-Carter Editor: Anna Lacey Music: Matt Chandler

Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland

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The only murderer in the family? When serial killer Robert Spahalski admitted to murder in 2005, police not only discovered his decades long criminal past but also a fascinating family history that raises the possibility of a genetic tendency towards violence. Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen investigate the age-old concept of “bad families” and ask whether criminal behaviour is passed down through generations. And if so, is it through genes, our environment or our experiences? CREDITS Presenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Dr Adam Rutherford Producer: Laura Northedge Assistant Producer: Hannah Ward Editor: Anna Lacey Music: Matt Chandler

Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland

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In November 2018 Chinese scientist Dr He Jiankui made a big announcement; he had illegally “edited” the DNA of Chinese twin girls Lulu and Nana in an attempt to prevent them from contracting HIV. The news made global headlines and the scientific community reacted with horror. But why is it so controversial to mess with our genes?

Dr Julia Shaw is joined by geneticist Dr Adam Rutherford to discuss the dangers of gene editing and how it relates to Nazism and the dark history of trying to breed “better people”, the subject of Adam’s BBC Radio 4 series Bad Blood: The History of Eugenics.

CREDITS Presenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Dr Adam Rutherford Producer: Laura Northedge Assistant Producer: Hannah Ward Editor: Anna Lacey Music: Matt Chandler

Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland

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Clip: The He Lab “About Lulu and Nana: Twin Girls Born Healthy After Gene Surgery As Single-Cell Embryos”

On the 22nd of May 1987 Kenneth Parks killed his mother-in-law and almost killed her husband. He claims he was asleep with amnesia for most of the event. The burden of proof is now on the defence. How can he prove that he was asleep? And if he can, does it mean he will walk free?

In this episode of Bad People, Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen investigate how sleep scientists can examine our brainwaves to see whether we are conscious or awake. Can stress, anxiety, or sleep deprivation make us more likely to sleepwalk? What is the legal defence of “non-insane automatism”, and why is it so incredibly hard to argue in a courtroom?

CREDITS Presenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Lauren Armstrong-Carter Editor: Anna Lacey Music: Matt Chandler

Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland

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On the 22nd of May 1987 Kenneth Parks got into his car and drove 27 km up a three-lane highway to his beloved parents-in-law's home. He claims he was asleep through his horrific actions until he woke up with blood dripping from his hands.

In this episode of Bad People, Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen look into the science of sleepwalking, sleep terrors, and related parasomnias. What is REM sleep? What are we capable of while asleep? What kind of sleep disruptions are normal? And is there a link between “disorders of arousal” and violence?

CREDITS Presenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Lauren Armstrong-Carter Editor: Anna Lacey Music: Matt Chandler

Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland

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Dr Julia Shaw unwraps Bad People’s choice of true crime podcasts in 2022.

She talks to Gabriel Gatehouse about his series The Coming Storm, which began as an investigation into the Q-Anon phenomenon and has evolved to explore major conspiracies that have engulfed politics in the US and beyond.

Julia also meets Winifred Robinson, the acclaimed BBC journalist whose podcast The Boy in the Woods revisits the disturbing case of murdered six year-old Rikki Neave.

And journalist Una Mullally discusses the extraordinary story behind Obscene, a BBC podcast that examines the political scandal that erupted following the discovery of a suspected killer in the home of the Irish Attorney General in 1982.

CREDITS Presenter: Dr Julia Shaw Producer: Laura Northedge Assistant Producer: Hannah Ward Editor: Anna Lacey Music: Matt Chandler Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland

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Dr Julia Shaw unwraps Bad People’s choice of true crime podcasts in 2022.

She talks to BBC social media and disinformation correspondent Marianna Spring about her series Disaster Trolls, which investigates the trolling of victims of terror attacks by people who claim they never happened.

Julia also meets Audrey Gillan, the acclaimed journalist who’s podcast Bible John: Creation of a Serial Killer reinvestigates horrific murders that shocked Glasgow over fifty years ago.

We hear from Formula One expert Sarah Holt about the Spygate podcast which tells the story behind industrial espionage and bitter rivalries in motor racing.

And Rachel Monroe discusses her story of lawlessness on the high-seas, BBC podcast Lost at Sea.

CREDITS Presenter: Dr Julia Shaw Producer: Laura Northedge Assistant Producer: Hannah Ward Editor: Anna Lacey Music: Matt Chandler Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland

It’s the early hours of the morning in Merseyside. Peter Stubbs is thrown out of Cindy’s Nightclub, then brutally beaten in the street. Constable Dytham is standing nearby and watches it happen. The minutes tick on and the violence subsides, but it’s clear that Peter is dead.

On this episode of Bad People, hosts Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen explore whether it should be a crime to do nothing. They ask why we don't step in when we know we should, and discover what happens when inaction leads to conviction.

CREDITS Presenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Lauren Armstrong-Carter Editors: Anna Lacey Music: Matt Chandler

Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland

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Bad People is back! Criminal psychologist Dr Julia Shaw makes a return to the series with a new co-host: journalist Amber Haque. Each episode tells the story of a true crime and explains why people do bad things. Murder, blackmail, fraud and much more.

Listen every Thursday. Bad People is a BBC Studios Audio production for BBC Sounds.

In 2010 a serial robber was on the loose in Cincinnati, US. Surveillance footage shows a clear image of a black man, with a black hoodie and sunglasses on. When tips come in the police follow the trail to a woman’s house. When she opens the door she says, “I know why you're here. I just saw on television my son robbing a bank”.

After arresting their prime suspect, it emerges that the police have the wrong man in custody. So if their suspect didn’t commit the crime, who has his face? On this episode of Bad People, Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss the growing problem of hyperreal masks and examine the link between our faces and our identities.

CREDITS Presenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Laura Northedge Assistant Producer: Hannah Ward Editor: Anna Lacey Music: Matt Chandler Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland #BadPeople_BBC

In 1895 a bronze statue of slave trader Edward Colston was erected on top of a stone plinth in the centre of Bristol. Colston had made large donations to charities, schools and hospitals in the city, and certain businessmen saw him as a philanthropist. A plaque beneath the statue described Colston as one of the “most virtuous and wise sons of the city”. But there was no mention anywhere that he made his fortune as a slave trader. 125 years later, in 2020, the statue was still there despite many petitions to Bristol City Council for it to be removed. Then, during a demonstration, the statue was toppled and thrown in the river. Four young protesters soon find themselves in court and at the centre of an intense political and legal debate. On this episode of Bad People, Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss whether it is ever right to break the law and what the law itself has to say about this controversial case.

CREDITS Presenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Louisa Field Assistant Producer: Kate White Editor: Anna Lacey Music: Matt Chandler Academic Consultants for The Open University: Dr James Munro

Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland

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On the 6th of March 1995 Scott Amedure reveals his growing sexual attraction to a friend in front of a large studio audience. Behind the scenes, Jonathan Schmitz is waiting to meet a secret admirer. Jonathan is led on stage of the Jenny Jones Show and each man is revealed to the other. Scott’s face lights up but Jonathan’s expression is inscrutable, and the crowd erupts with laughter around them. Just three days after filming, Jonathan Schmitz shot his friend Scott in the chest, killing him there and then. But was Schmitz fully culpable? What happens when shame becomes public? On this episode of Bad People Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen question the duty of care producers have to contestants, the line between entertainment and exploitation, and the consequences of public humiliation on a national scale.

CREDITS Presenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Laura Northedge Assistant Producer: Hannah Ward Editor: Anna Lacey Music: Matt Chandler Academic Consultant for The Open University: Dr Sarah Laurence

Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland

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On this episode of Bad People, producer and journalist Georgia Catt speaks to Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen about her new BBC podcast, Burn Wild.

Georgia tells Julia and Sofie the story of the Earth Liberation Front (ELF), a group of radical underground environmentalists known as ‘elves’ and together they examine how a movement that never killed anyone became the FBI’s number one domestic terror threat.

Should we ditch the term ‘eco-terrorism’ and how far can we go to stop the planet from burning?

CREDITS Presenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Simona Rata Editors: Anna Lacey and Martin Smith Music: Matt Chandler

Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland

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