Explore every episode of the podcast At Last She Said It

Each Latter-day Saint's path looks different, a combination of unique experiences, choices, and challenges. No matter how insistent our culture may sometimes feel, no woman fits in a mold. "I think my life began with holding dissonance," explains comedian Whitney Call. "I grew up in a very faithful LDS family...but a little squidgy around the edges. We would go to church and activities every week, and we'd watch the Simpsons together on Sunday nights. We'd bear our testimonies to each other, and we used crude humor about sex." In Episode 243, Cynthia and Susan are joined by Whitney for a wide-ranging conversation about all of it—how it started, how it's going, and one thing she knows right now (or did at the time of recording). CW: pornography, sexuality

No matter what language we use to describe the Divine, for spiritual seekers the hope is that our understanding and connection will continue to expand and deepen. As Richard Rohr reminds us, "God is always bigger than the boxes we build for God, so we should not spend too much time protecting the boxes." In Episode 242, Cynthia and Susan take another look at the spaces where their own 'god-boxes' used to be: It's two women getting personal about what's new, what's not, and where and how they're seeking communion and/or communication now.

"Deconstruction doesn't just happen to lazy learners," says Jen Dille. "It's often the most true-blue Mormons and the people who are all in who have this experience." In episode 233, Jen joins Susan and Cynthia for a conversation about her personal journey. It's a story of old wheels coming off, and the new ones taking their place. "I dream of a time where we can each just have our own experience, and be okay with that, not be scared or threatened by it," she explains. "If we could find other ways to be LDS and still come together, that's the dream."

"Your job as an adult is to disappoint people." So said Dr. Julie Hanks the first time she was on the ALSSI podcast. In Episode 143, she joins Cynthia and Susan to talk more about actually applying that statement in our lives and relationships. Why might it be hard for Latter-day Saint women to believe our choices don't have to please everyone—or even anyone—else?

One of the questions Cynthia and Susan hear most often comes from mothers who write, "My daughter is asking when it will be her turn to pass the sacrament….what should I say?" They took this question to listeners and in Episode 142, voices from the ALSSI community share answers. It's a broad conversation about women and priesthood featuring a diversity of ideas, experiences, and perspectives.

Can faithful women reject patriarchy? Beth Allison Barr's book, The Making of Biblical Womanhood: How the Subjugation of Women Became Gospel Truth, suggests the answer is yes. Her book is a compelling 'untelling' of the story of patriarchy as divinely appointed truth. In Episode 141, Cynthia and Susan are joined by Dr. Barr for a conversation about historical forces that have shaped women's roles in the world and at church. She offers insights not only into women's roles in the Bible, but specific to the lives of women in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints today.

Every church goer has probably heard more lessons about the wise and foolish virgins than they can count. Why do Latter-day Saints love to talk about this parable so much? And why do we seem to be so attached to one interpretation of it? In Episode 140, Susan and Cynthia try to shake up the same old conversation about this story—and the women in it—by asking a few new questions, and imagining new answers.

What would you say if you had the ear of the people in charge of designing garments? Afton Southam Parker came prepared with a 37 slide PowerPoint presentation, based on her own experiences and those of many other women who wear them. The meeting was a masterclass on many of the communication tips she talked about in Episode 138. In bonus Episode 139, she joins Cynthia and Susan to review her presentation, and break it all down!

Bringing attention to issues affecting Latter-day Saint women requires us to be opportunistic about using our voices. Even those in leadership callings don't always find their ideas and opinions are welcome. And when chances to be heard do arise, the power dynamic of our culture and organization may make it hard for a woman to find the courage to express a non-traditional view. In Episode 138, Cynthia and Susan are joined by Afton Southam Parker, a woman who knows how to speak up about things that matter to her. It's a conversation about finding ways to make individual opinions, ideas, and experiences known in a church where sharing them is rarely encouraged.

In close relationships, sometimes it's difficult to differentiate between a loved one's side of the road and our own. We may develop unhealthy or unbalanced behavioral patterns. Codependency is one word used to describe what happens when we begin internalizing someone else's emotions, or allow our well-being to become dependent on their behavior. We may try to fix, rescue, or control them. In Episode 137, Susan and Cynthia are joined by author Meghan Decker to discuss relationships and the challenges and rewards of establishing and maintaining healthy boundaries with the people we love.

"I know this church is true." Many Latter-day Saints rely on this anchor phrase when bearing testimony, but what do the words really mean? What are the implications—good and less so—of believing an organization carries the divine stamp of approval? Could devotion to a label like 'The One True Church' come with a shadow side?

What's religious trauma? For some Latter-day Saint women, church may become difficult or even unsafe because of it, yet many members have probably never heard of it. In episode 135, Jana Spangler joins Cynthia and Susan for a discussion of some of the ways trauma may manifest in our church experience, and steps we can take toward healing.

Many Latter-day Saint women have had similar experiences as lifelong Church members. We come up through Primary and Young Women's singing the same songs, going to camp, and participating in correlated lessons and activities. But what about women who convert later in life? In Episode 134, Cynthia and Susan chat with KC Bramer about her experiences before and after joining in her mid 40s. What's attractive about this church? What's confusing? Against the backdrop of her personal conversion and religious story, KCs insider/outsider perspective provides interesting insight into things that are the same and things that set us apart, things we do well and things we might do better in the process of shepherding people into the Church.

Diana Butler Bass wrote, "To belong is to be, for belonging is ultimately a question of identity: Who am I?" For many Latter-day Saint women, a place where they can just "be"—whoever and wherever they are right now—feels elusive. That's what the ALSSI project aims to create: a community where women can speak honestly about the complexity of their church life and/or faith journey, feel seen and validated in their experience, and find support. Episode 232 explores ideas about spiritual sanctuary. What does it mean to create it for ourselves? And how can we provide it for others?

Enjoy dessert with Susan, Cynthia, and Blakelee in this continuation of ALSSI's Ask-Us-Anything Third Anniversary podcast celebration.

Please join us for Episode 132 as we celebrate our podcast anniversary with an Ask-Us-Anything conversation, hosted by Blakelee Ellis and featuring listener questions with Cynthia-and-Susan answers! It's a fun, wide ranging discussion packed with women's voices, ideas, and experiences—a perfect way to commemorate 3 years of saying it at last. Bring your own cake!

It sounds simple to say I must love my neighbor as I love myself, but what does that really look like? We have an unfaltering example in Jesus, whose works offered a living reflection of his teachings about the nature of God. The scriptures may be full of unclear translations, contradictory ideas, metaphors that have lost meaning over time, and laws that have lapsed. But Christ's actions show clearly who God is, and how God loves. In episode 131, Cynthia and Susan discuss the real challenge of discipleship: following Jesus' example of compassion.

For ALSSI listeners, it'll be no surprise that when Cynthia was asked to speak on the subject of atonement, she pivoted to an exploration of grace. In Episode 130, ideas from her talk inspire a conversation about the relationship between those two words, as well as salvation and healing. Do Latter-day Saints believe in grace? Or are we mostly just confused by it? As we study the New Testament together, what might change if our discussion at church shifted to focus more on the radical grace exemplified in Jesus' ministry and teachings?

It's easy to assume that when we're all in the same room, we're hearing, seeing, and experiencing the same things. But this discussion between three sisters shows that living in the same house, growing up in the same family, and attending the same ward and church activities carries no such guarantee. In Episode 129, Cynthia is joined by her two sisters for a conversation about how even Latter-day Saint women who share many commonalities are not having the same experiences in life or at church. It's an episode about how paths diverge and every journey with faith is a personal one.

Latter-day Saint women in a liminal faith space may find it's not easy to know what to say, or to whom they can say it. It can feel scary to share non-traditional thoughts with the people closest to us—a husband or partner, a parent, close friend, or child—or discuss shifts we experience in foundational aspects of our church or spiritual lives. In Episode 128, Cynthia and Susan are joined by therapist C.A. Larson for a conversation about having these hard conversations.

Cultural taboos and prohibitions can feel etched in stone for many Latter-day Saint women. Even in things so personal as what to wear to church, we may feel little room to deviate from what's expected. In Episode 127, Cynthia and Susan discuss choices they each make that are counter to the cultural norm. They're small things, but in a church where it can feel like there are no small things, learning to ignore raised eyebrows and give yourself permission can pay big mental and spiritual dividends.

Got thoughts about tithing? This may be the episode you've been waiting for! There's a lot of emotion tied up at the intersection of money, obedience, temple recommends, and blessings. And what about charitable giving? How is tithing the same as paying to a charity that benefits others? How is tithing different? In Episode 126, Cynthia and Susan explore a diversity of ideas and personal experiences shared by listeners around this complicated topic.

Because the scriptures have been written, translated, interpreted, and most often taught by men, it's not surprising many women don't feel empowered to venture beyond the understanding we've received at church. Women's influence and involvement in the scriptural narrative has been minimized too, leaving only a few female characters with little detail about them. Their role is often glossed over or skipped altogether in our Sunday talks and curriculum. In Episode 125, Kajsa Berlin-Kaufusi joins Cynthia and Susan for a conversation urging Latter-day Saint women to reclaim the scriptures for ourselves in every way.

How does your religion influence your activism? And how does your activism influence your personal religious practice? For Jody England Hansen, there's never been a boundary between "What kind of member of the Church are you?" and "What kind of member of the world are you?" She writes,"If you see a need, an injustice, and there is something you can do about it, Jesus calls you to do it." Episode 124 is a conversation about showing up to advocate for and support others, wherever, whenever, and however we feel called.

What triggered your faith journey? In this short bonus episode, more women from the ALSSI community share their answers!

For some Latter-day Saints, our church services are feeling a little stale. Maybe even boring? If you got a seat on the Imagination Committee, what ideas would you bring for reimagining Sunday worship? How could we make the time we spend meeting together in our wards better? What would inspire and recharge you? What do you wish you might see, hear, sing, say, or do? Where's your holy envy sitting on Sundays?

In this bonus episode, Becky shares a few more personal insights about faith journeying. Spoiler: growth is always a good thing.

You may or may not call it a faith crisis, but many Latter-day Saints experience a seismic shift at some point that calls into question the faith we thought was settled. Suddenly we no longer feel sure about things to which we used to testify wholeheartedly. Though individuals experience the details differently, sudden uncertainty about foundational beliefs can feel frightening, isolating, even hopeless. In this episode, Becky Edwards joins Cynthia and Susan for a discussion about moving and growing through the destabilization of 'faith crisis.'

Latter-day Saints talk a lot about the wicked world: how it's getting more wicked, how it's a sign of the last days, how we're supposed to be in but not of it, how we should protect our families and fortify our homes against it. But what do we mean when we talk disparagingly about it? What are we gaining collectively from embracing a distrust of, or desire to disengage from, the world? And could there be unintended consequences from consistently highlighting a fearful view?

"The power struggle that's inherent in this telestial sphere between men and women is the source of all of our pain…" In this short bonus, Kathryn joins Cynthia and Susan to explore a few more ideas about patriarchy. Could it stand in the way of women and men realizing our full potential?

"While there are things I love about the organization, and most especially the people and community, I also see the messiness, the warts, and I see some very real pain and damage in it all. And so here I am today, living at the edge of inside." In this special bonus, Jeralee reflects on her faith journey and the lessons she's learning along the way, sharing an adaptation of her presentation from the ALSSI Fall Gathering, October 2022.

Are women complicit in their own marginalization within the Church? In their Season 5 finale episode, Cynthia and Susan unpack the idea of complicity, and some obstacles to overcoming it. It's an itchy topic with no easy answers. But the real focus of the conversation is a call for women to support other women as a necessary first step to change. If we can't allow for different experiences, and sit with each other in that difference, can we truly love one another?

In this Part 2 episode, more Latter-day Saint women share stories of personal feminist awakenings. It's hard to shake the unsettling realizations once we begin to see through a feminist lens at church. For these episodes, Cynthia and Susan asked listeners to talk about their feminist journeys. Do you think about things today the same way you did 5 or 10 years ago? If not, what has led you to see things differently? And what are the implications for your faith life going forward?

There are probably as many versions of a feminist awakening as there are feminists. Some have always felt aware of the disparity between men's and women's experiences and opportunities. For others, the awareness has come more recently. Either way, it's hard to shake the unsettling realizations once we begin to see through a feminist lens at church. For this episode, Cynthia and Susan asked listeners to talk about their personal feminist journeys. Do you think about things today the same way you did 5 or 10 years ago? If not, what has led you to see things differently? And what are the implications for your faith life going forward?

Language is powerful. The words and phrases we use repetitively in church create well-worn pathways in our brains. Each time we think in a certain way, practice a certain task, or feel a certain emotion we strengthen and grow that pathway, making it easier for our subconscious to find again and again. Whether it's hearing male pronouns associated with deity or studying scriptural records written by and about men, without conscious effort there's a good chance we're reinforcing ideas about gender roles every time we sit through a lesson, hear a talk, or sing a hymn. In this conversation, Jill Evans Opdahl joins Cynthia and Susan to talk about the implications of "our brains on church," and consider the challenges and rewards of adding new pathways to our old ways of thinking.

"I can take as long as I need on the edge of the chasm of the unknown," writes Jody England Hansen. "I can experience the terror of moving into the future for however long I feel it. I can turn again to the past if I choose to deal with that pain. I can create my future, choosing to step forward on a path that I might not see until I am in the next moment, the next place I step." In Episode 230, Jody joins Cynthia and Susan to discuss approaching whatever's next in our lives with active hope and love. She reminds us to "create reasons to create." This is a conversation about mercy, grace, forgiveness, and our power to face the tragic gap and walk forward anyway.

In her book, The Mother Tree: Discovering the Love and Wisdom of Our Divine Mother, author Kathryn Knight Sonntag wrote, "Further exploration of the Mother is part of the unfolding Restoration in our hearts." Today many women are feeling led to explore the divine feminine more deeply, or for the first time, in an effort to erase the separation that has existed between Latter-day Saints and our Heavenly Mother. In Episode 113, Kathryn shares insights and ideas gleaned from her personal research and experiences. It's a conversation about creating wholeness and healing the mother wound in our theology.

What does it mean to a Latter-day Saint young woman when she hears that virtue and chastity are 'most dear and precious above all things?' Purity Culture is a movement built on teachings of sexual abstinence before marriage, with the insidious slant that girls and women are responsible for not only their own purity, but that of boys and men. Young women face strict dress codes and years of lessons about how to avoid tempting or distracting. Some even internalize a message that's difficult to overcome: a woman's personal worth is linked to her sexual purity. In Episode 112, therapist Colette Dalton joins Cynthia and Susan for a conversation about changing the conversation. How might the Church teach chastity in ways that promote sexual health and spiritual well-being throughout our lives?

For women who have experienced some kind of faith shift or feminist awakening, how to raise children in the Church may become a perplexing question. We may want something different from the messaging and experiences—cultural or religious—we grew up with. We may want a more expansive idea of God than is presented in correlated materials. We may hold more nuanced views than some official positions. We may wonder how to answer questions about issues to which we don't really have answers ourselves. In episode 111, Cynthia and Susan are joined by Michelle Larson who assures us all parents get some things wrong, but we also get many right. It's an exploration of ideas for finding personal approaches that best fit each family.

How do you think about repentance? Is it a way to become pure? A way to change direction? A way to accept responsibility for harm we've caused ourselves or others? And how do you feel about an organization that doesn't apologize? Can we make amends without acknowledging harm? Repentance is something we hear and talk a lot about at church, but we don't all think about it the same way. In Episode 110, Cynthia and Susan share personal ideas about repentance, and discuss whether or not Latter-day Saints believe our own stuff when it comes to the second fundamental principle of the gospel.

In this short bonus episode, Cynthia and Susan share a few more listeners' experiences and feelings about temple sealings and the policies around them. Spoiler: It's complicated.

Disparity in the Church's sealing policies for men and women is something many members never think about until their life experience reveals it in some way. The truth is, a variety of complex real-life scenarios may change the idea of sealing from a joyful eternal prospect to a painful eternal sentence for some Latter-day Saint women. If you are widowed, divorced, remarried, or single, your sealing options as a woman are limited, and you have little to no power in the process of determining what's right for you. In this episode, ALSSI listeners share their personal experiences with the Church's sealing policies, and the complex emotions that arise as a result of living within these limitations.

Having learned about her well-defined role as a wife and mother from the time she is a young girl, when and how does a Latter-day Saint woman develop an understanding of who she is as an individual? Over time, not living in alignment with our true self is exhausting, and may be detrimental to health and happiness. 'Finding yourself' may sound cliché, but self-discovery is key to making choices about our life and identity that will lead to personal fulfillment. Therapist C.A. Larson joins Cynthia and Susan for a conversation about some of the unique challenges LDS women may face in our search for Self.

'Blessing' is a catch-all word. From prosperity gospel to the laying on of hands, it is used to describe a transactional approach to our relationship with God: we do something and believe we are 'blessed' as a result. But when we try to connect those specific dots in our lives, things can get tricky. Such a transactional view may challenge our faith as often as it affirms it. In this follow-up conversation, Cynthia and Susan take another look at some complicated ways Latter-day Saints perceive, experience, and express the idea of blessing.

In this short bonus episode, Susan shares "Circles of Light," the essay in which the phrase 'I'm in the process of staying' originated.

"Why do you stay? How do you stay?" Because the conversations on this podcast often highlight problems Latter-day Saint women have observed or experienced in their church lives, these questions come up a lot. Every so often, it's helpful to check in with oneself for the current answers. In this episode, Cynthia and Susan discuss the process of staying: what that process looks like for them, and why they each continue to find value engaging with it today.

How can we know if we're getting it right when it comes to meeting others with empathy? "Empathy is a tool of compassion," writes Brene Brown. "We can respond empathically only if we are willing to be present to someone's pain. If we're not willing to do that, it's not real empathy." We're living now in a time and society where people actually talk about the sin of empathy. But for followers of Jesus—charged to mourn with and comfort others—how can being present to someone else's pain ever wear the title of "sin?" In Episode 229, Cynthia and Susan take on empathy, exploring this hot-button word and a few of the familiar ideas related to it. Why does such a simple sounding principle sometimes feel clumsy or complicated when we try to put it into practice?

There's a lot of pressure around missions in the Church. From the time they are very young, our children hear the clear expectation that they will serve. But the decision to serve, the realities of mission life, the possibility of returning home early, and the pressure to make big life decisions soon after a mission ends, can all weigh heavily on young Latter-day Saints and their families. "The reality of mission life both pre- and post-mission is hard!" says therapist Apple Lanman, who joins Cynthia and Susan for a discussion of some of the complexities—personal, family, cultural, and institutional—surrounding this celebrated rite of passage.

There's a tension in our church between things that change and things that some members consider to be unchangeable. It can be hard to distinguish between the two, and our history would suggest that more things are probably changeable than we think. Figuring out what matters, why it does, and when that may change is an ongoing process, personally and institutionally. To answer those questions for ourselves, we must approach practices and programs in a way that helps us uncover spiritual meaning in them—or sometimes not. In this conversation, Cynthia and Susan talk about some specific changes they've experienced during their church lives, and ask the question: Did that ever matter?

In this short bonus episode, Cynthia and Susan say a little bit more about the temple—a topic so big, there will always be more to say.