AntArctic Stories is a podcast that takes you behind the scenes into the rich world of people who live, work, and undertake daring expeditions in the polar regions.
The podcast is produced by a merry band of career polar guides who primarily work in the expedition cruise industry, and is hosted by Heather Thorkelson. AntArctic Stories is our way of bringing the incredible lives of the people we meet and work with into your homes and headsets, no matter where you are in the world.
Site
RSS
Apple
Recent rankings
Latest chart positions across Apple Podcasts and Spotify rankings.
Shared links between episodes and podcasts
Links found in episode descriptions and other podcasts that share them.
S2 EP09 Jerome Viard - Bon appétit: Tales from the French Pastry Chef that Helped Feed South Georgia's Rat Team
Season 2 · Episode 9
Monday, April 19, 2021 • Duration 42:54
Jerome Viard grew up in France and moved to the UK 13 years ago where he has enjoyed a successful career as a chef, having been head pastry chef at some of the best hotels in Cambridge.
In 2015, he was invited to embark on the adventure of a lifetime as a chef and field assistant for the South Georgia Heritage Trust’s habitat restoration field team during the rat eradication project. The team included 20 people from New Zealand, Australia, the UK and France.
It was quite an adjustment cooking in such a remote environment, with long hours and minimal fresh food deliveries. Nonetheless, Jerome was blown away by the wildlife and cultural heritage of South Georgia, and appreciated the strong community that was built on base.
In this episode, Jerome details the ups and downs of working on such a time-sensitive, high-stakes project in one of the most remote islands in the world.
HIGHLIGHTS
2:23 The journey from making desserts in a 4-star hotel to feeding a team of 20 on one of the most remote islands in the world
3:11 The job responsibilities of a “rat team” chef as well as helping bait as a field assistant
4:54 What was it like to cook in such a remote environment?
8:22 Making the most of versatile ingredients like powdered milk
10:07 What is Jerome most proud of cooking during his time in South Georgia? Beware those with weak stomachs!
13:20 Why was the rat eradication project necessary and what were the required logistics?
22:11 Keeping busy on base when the project was halted due to bad weather
24:20 The privilege of experiencing South Georgia’s hostile yet stunningly beautiful landscapes, including following in the footsteps of explorer Sir Ernest Shackleton
27:55 Jerome returns to South Georgia to support the work of the Heritage Trust
31:44 The difference between working as a chef 7-days-a-week for the rat eradication team and being a Museum Assistant with time off to explore the “travel zone”
33:32 A breathtaking memory - Jerome’s first impressions from the day he arrived in South Georgia in 2015
35:09 A jaw-dropping experience in Gold Harbour in the southeast coast of South Georgia
40:15 Jerome’s advice to those considering a trip to South Georgia
S2 EP08 Dr Lesley Cadzow - The Unusual Adventures of a Ship-based Expedition Doctor
Season 2 · Episode 8
Monday, April 12, 2021 • Duration 53:01
Expedition Doctor Lesley Cadzow was born in Scotland and spent her formative years pouring over medical books, with a keen interest in tropical diseases. She trained as a general practitioner before following an opportunity to New Zealand where she found herself working as a pediatric registrar flying premature babies around the North Island.
She then settled in Australia and began her work with the Royal Flying Doctor Service, providing treatment to indigenous communities all over the country.
Through a connection from her time at Glasgow University, she was introduced to expedition cruising and became an onboard doctor with Aurora Expeditions, a tour operator based in Sydney. This opportunity has taken her to the Arctic and Antarctic, and everywhere in between including Papua New Guinea and the Kamchatka Peninsula.
In this episode, Lesley shares with us her fascinating journey from general practice work in Scotland to warming up an unconscious hypothermic scuba diver in Antarctica, with plenty of weird and wonderful tales along the way.
HIGHLIGHTS
4:20 Early childhood interest in becoming a doctor pouring through medical books as a young girl
5:24 Flying premature babies as a pediatric registrar in New Zealand
6:58 Working with the Royal Flying Doctors Service bringing care to Australia’s most remote communities
10:23 Lesley’s introduction to expedition cruising with a trip to the remote islands off the coast of Scotland
13:07 Crossing the infamous Drake Passage on her first trip to the Antarctic Peninsula
15:09 A “beautiful and spooky” orca encounter while Zodiac cruising through the Lemaire Channel
20:53 Lesley recounts treating a hypothermic scuba diver during an Antarctic expedition
27:15 Practicing medicine in Antarctica is getting “back to basics”
S1 EP13 Stephen Eastaugh - A landscape artist that overwintered in Antarctica
Season 1 · Episode 13
Saturday, August 31, 2019 • Duration 25:53
Stephen Eastaugh is an Australian contemporary artist from Melbourne, Australia. He is known for producing semi-abstract, mixed media art, and his work is informed by his decades of experiences travelling.
He has made nine trips to Antarctica: three trips as the official Australian Antarctic Arts fellow (2000, 2002–3, 2009), and six times as an artist-in-residence on tourist ships.
On Eastaugh's third official trip to Antarctica, he over-wintered at Mawson station. In fact, he was the first Australian to overwinter in Antarctica as an artist since Frank Hurley.
Today on the podcast we talk to Stephen about his multiple experiences as an Arts Fellow on Antarctic bases.
4:00 – How Stephen’s first Fellowship in Antarctica came about
5:30 – Stephen shares that most of the English-speaking Antarctic programs have Artists Fellowships – good news for creatives!
6:20 – What stood out to him the most upon arrival in Antarctica
8:30 – The (surprising) primary role of taking artists down to Antarctica
9:20 – Stephen takes us through a day in the life of an artist in Antarctica
S1 EP12 Sarah Lurcock - Six months a year, every year: A story of living on South Georgia for love & preservation
Season 1 · Episode 12
Thursday, August 15, 2019 • Duration 49:04
Few faces in the sub-Antarctic world are as familiar as that of Sarah Lurcock, South Georgia Heritage Trust's Director on South Georgia.
Tireless in her management of the annual team that heads to Gryviken to manage the museum, the post office, and various goings-on in this remote outpost, Sarah is one of the strongest ambassadors for an island that so many love so dearly.
Photo by Heather Thorkelson
Many travellers recognize Sarah as the first local face they see upon arrival in South Georgia as she has spent years boarding expedition vessels and prepping visitors for their day visit to Grytviken.
Photo by Kerstin Langenberger
However, Sarah and her annually-rotating team are also largely responsible for the fundraising initiatives - largely from tourism vessels - that have paved the way for some groundbreaking projects to be completed in South Georgia.
Spending six months a year on South Georgia for over two decades, Sarah has truly dedicated her life to a place that many people only visit once in a lifetime and many more only dream of.
Listen to today's episode to hear Sarah's story and learn more about the future of South Georgia, the "pearl of the Antarctic".
HIGHLIGHTS
2:45 – The story of what drew Sarah to South Georgia in the first place about two decades ago
S1 EP11 Alexander Feldt - The Life of a Park Ranger in Russia's High Arctic
Season 1 · Episode 11
Wednesday, July 31, 2019 • Duration 52:08
Alexander Feldt has spent the last decade working as an Arctic guide both on land and on expedition cruise ships in Russia’s Far North and Northern Norway, as well as serving as a Park Ranger for the Russian Arctic National Park.
Originally from Arkhangelsk on Russia’s northern coast, he's spent his entire career focused on learning about and sharing his love for the history of this region.
Along with his insight into the recent history of the area, hear his stories of when he was on the world's strongest icebreaker and they hit an iceberg larger than the ship itself, and of being stranded with 40 guests on land - in dense fog - right in the thick of polar bear country.
Photo: stranded in the fog at Cape Fligely
Queue up today's podcast to get the inside scoop on this little known, and less-traveled part of our world.
HIGHLIGHTS
3:10 – How Alexander got started in his career as a Park Ranger
5:00 – The background of recently-developed tourism in the Russian High Arctic
8:00 – The only ways you can reach Franz Josef Land, one of the most remote archipelagos in the world
10:40 – There are only a handful of people who actually get to the Russian High Arctic each year - a truly exclusive and remote travel experience
13:30 – What it was like during the early days of tourism development (1990’s) and then the advent of the Russian Arctic National Park in 2011, with the first rangers starting to manage the human presence and maintain historical buildings
16:30 - The huge task of cleaning the Russian Arctic National Park from the leftovers of the military presence
S1 EP10 Ted Cheeseman - Photographing whales to tell their story - for fun + science - with happywhale.com
Season 1 · Episode 10
Monday, July 15, 2019 • Duration 49:49
Ted Cheeseman is the founder of happywhale.com, a project that aims to photo identify the world's whales through Citizen Science and as such, better understand these mysterious creatures, both for fun and scientific purposes.
In just a few short years happywhale.com has become one of the greatest contributors to whale science both in the volume of whale identification images but also, in understanding their migration patterns.
Furthermore, Ted is one of the founding members of the Polar Citizen Science Collective - an organization that facilitates meaningful data contributions of regular travelers when they visit the polar regions. This includes submissions to happywhale.com through hobby photography, but also collecting sea samples that look at ocean salinity, phytoplankton density, and much more.
Check out this episode to learn more about how one man's passion for animals and nature led to his involvement in the inception of these truly groundbreaking programs that are changing the landscape of polar scientific research.
Photos courtesy of happywhale on Instagram
HIGHLIGHTS
3:10 – Why whales?
4:30 – How we hunted whales down to near biological extinction and now they’re recovering
6:15 – Ted’s most memorable whale encounter, when he was actually lifted by a whale
12:25 – The process by which individual whales are identified by their fluke
S1 EP09 Michael Andersson - Patrolling Greenland's coast by dogsled as part of Denmark's elite naval unit - the Sirius Patrol
Season 1 · Episode 9
Sunday, June 30, 2019 • Duration 41:44
Danish national Michael Andersson let his military training and certified carpenter skills lead him from Europe to Canada, Zanzibar to Greenland and Svalbard, and then back Greenland where his growing interest and skills led him to fulfill a childhood dream by being accepted into Denmark’s Sirius Patrol - an elite unit of the Danish Navy that enforces sovereignty in the Arctic wilderness of eastern and northern Greenland.
Today on the podcast we get a peek behind the door of what it's like to be in the Sirius Patrol - out with only one colleague, a sledge and 13 dogs for months at a time, eating dried food and sleeping with a weapon on your chest in the event of a polar bear approach.
Download the episode and listen to Michael's incredible tales from some of our earth's most remote Arctic environs.
HIGHLIGHTS
2:48 - What exactly is the Sirius Patrol and how was it developed?
4:00 - Michael shares what the requirements are for men and women to apply to be a Sirius patrol person
7:37 - How does the application process happen - how do they narrow down to the few that are accepted? Plus, intensive Sirius Patrol training...
9:43 - Dentistry in the Arctic when it’s you and one other person, weeks away from help.
12:50 - It’s official - you’re starting your two years of service. What happens then?
15:11 - Michael tells us about what a day looks like when it's just you, one colleague, and 13 dogs on those multiple-month patrols
18:13 - What to do when there’s an issue with one of the dogs
20:04 - What do you feed this many dogs and how do you manage supplies?
S1 EP08 Sarah Woodall - From OCD event planner in Washington DC to the slow life in remote southern Greenland
Season 1 · Episode 8
Saturday, June 15, 2019 • Duration 26:57
What happens when you thought your destiny would take you closer to the equator to a Spanish-speaking country, and then discover that your heart is actually in remote, chilly, and wild Greenland?
Our guest on the podcast today is Sarah Woodall, a Paraguayan-born naturalized US citizen who was raised in Washington DC and found her way to Greenland on an internship.
As it turns out, Sarah would not be returning to the US. Rather she has settled in the southern Greenland town of Qaqortoq - population 3000 - and learned the local language, taking a job at the tourism board.
Sarah shares her wildly interesting and unusual life in this remote Arctic outpost through visual storytelling on her Instagram feed, but today we're getting to the story behind her stories.
Check out episode 8 of AntArctic stories and let us know what you think!
HIGHLIGHTS
3:00 - How Sarah ended up in Greenland to begin with when she always imagined she'd end up in a Spanish-speaking country close to the equator
6:40 - Sarah tells us why she moved from a town of 18,000 to a town of 3,000
8:25 - On choosing what to share about her life in Greenland on Instagram
10:15 - How Sarah prepares amazing cuisine in such a remote town where the supply is limited
11:45 - What being a sea-ice free town means and what happens when you have a food emergency in Greenland
13:30 - Sarah talks about using three languages in her day-to-day life - English, Danish, and the incredibly tough Greenlandic
18:20 - The challenges Sarah faces by living remotely & her "only in Greenland" experiences
S1 EP07 Bob Gilmore - From fuel guy in Antarctica's interior to polar Citizen Science trailblazer
Season 1 · Episode 7
Friday, May 31, 2019 • Duration 27:37
Today we bring you the story of Bob Gilmore, a former McMurdo base staff member and longtime polar expedition guide who supported both the on-the-ground research projects on the continent and then went on to spearhead polar citizen science programs on tourism expedition vessels.
In this episode, Bob tells his story of how he came to work in Antarctica to begin with in charge of fuel which allowed him the amazing opportunity of going deep into the continent and learn first hand about glacial science. He returned to the US after a few seasons to become a 7th-grade teacher, but the polar bug had bitten him hard and it was only a matter of time, a bit of luck, and the right person giving him the chance that brought him back to the Great White Continent as an expedition guide.
And while guiding and teaching guests about the things he was passionate about was great, Bob saw an opportunity to really leverage the regular tourist ship presence in Antarctica to directly support scientists in institutions back in North America by gathering data on their behalf, and thus, the Polar Citizen Science program was born.
Have a listen to his incredibly fascinating and engaging story, and leave us a review on iTunes, Stitcher, PocketCasts, or wherever you listen to episodes.
HIGHLIGHTS
3:17 - How Bob got a job in fuel management at McMurdo Station in Antarctica
4:45 - The role of fuel in the US Antarctic program (it's everything!)
5:30 - How his job allowed him to go out into the field, into the dry valleys and assist in ice core drilling projects, learning about polar science
6:35 - Bob goes back to the US to teach 7th grade
7:20 - Susan Adie gives Bob a break which allows him to get back to Antarctica, but this time on an expedition ship
S1 EP06 Felicity Aston - Spending two months alone in Antarctica + other tales of doing what no woman has done before
Season 1 · Episode 6
Wednesday, May 15, 2019 • Duration 01:09:08
Felicity Aston's story is absolutely incredible - going from someone who didn't particularly like Phys Ed class in school to being the first woman to ever cross the Antarctic continent alone over the course of two months, she has shown that courage, tenacity, and mindset are more important in achieving massive goals than pure physical capability.
In this episode, Felicity shares how she first fell in love with Antarctica while working as a meteorologist on a research base, what made her go back time and again, and also the inspiration behind taking a group of women - many of whom had never seen snow prior to signing up for the expedition - to the South Pole on skis.
She also takes us into the unique experience of being alone in Antarctica for two months during her 2012 crossing of the continent, battling horrendous weather, and her own mind, to achieve what no woman had ever done before, landing her in the Guinness Book of World Records among other accolades.
Felicity has since taken a group of women to the North Pole as well, among other notable expeditions and adventures.
Have a listen to her story and let us know what you'd like us to ask her on future episodes by emailing contact {at} twintracksexpeditions.com
HIGHLIGHTS
4:20 - On skiing to the North Pole with a team of women from Europe and the Middle East
6:30 - What led up to the 2009 expedition when Felicity took 7 women with almost no experience to ski to the South Pole
10:10 - Felicity talks about how living on an Antarctic research base, and the training that came along with it from the British Antarctic Survey prepared her for her future ski crossings
11:15 - Next phase: Felicity tries to hold a 'regular job' in London
11:45 - Then she takes on the Adventure Race to the North Magnetic Pole and talks about how that differed from her BAS training in terms of pushing oneself physically and mentally, traveling light and fast, with help close at hand if needed
28:25 The difficulty of stitching someone back up during rough seas
32:00 Acupuncture treatment in the Drake Passage and searching for contraception in the Orkney Islands of Scotland
38:23 What happens when the doctor is the one who gets sick?
43:40 A new sense of appreciation gained from guests who come on board with disabilities
47:38 Lesley’s special memory of being “land sick” amongst the penguins
49:31 Future plans including an upcoming expedition by camel to the “red center” of Australia
10:30 – How the artist’s role is perceived by the rest of the team
12:20 – The biggest challenges he faced as an artist working in a remote environment
13:30 – Stephen shares whether being in that remote environment changed his perceptions or skills as an artist
15:25 – What prompted Stephen to decide to overwinter in Antarctica after two stints down there in the summer season?
17:05 – What was different about overwintering in comparison to being there with more people during the summer months?
18:50 – The thing that affects people the most in an isolated place…
20:10 – The most unique thing Stephen experienced while in Antarctica
22:10 – A possible cunning plan to get to the dry valleys near McMurdo, which is one place on the continent Stephen hasn’t seen but would really like to
23:30 – Stephen’s advice for any artists who are keen to do a residency in Antarctica
AntArctic Stories is brought to you by Twin Tracks Expeditions - your experts in small-ship expedition cruises and unique adventures to the Arctic and Antarctica. We love sharing our insider knowledge to help you find your next polar adventure.
4:00 – Not too long ago, women weren’t allowed on the island
5:20 – How Sarah ended up as the Director of the South Georgia Heritage Trust on the island
8:50 – Good news! South Georgia now has a full-time curator at the museum
9:30 – Ever wanted to work on a remote, wildlife-packed island? Sarah spills the beans on how other seasonal positions on South Georgia get filled
11:35 – What day-to-day life is like in Grytviken when they're dealing with roughly 80 cruise ships per season (and growing)
15:40 – Is there anything that Sarah misses when she’s living off provisions during her 6 months on the island?
17:15 – What life was like on South Georgia in the pre-internet age
19:45 – How dependency on the internet is changing things, even in our most remote regions
21:00 – Sarah talks about the epic planning and execution involved in the Habitat Restoration Project which successfully eradicated rodents - invasive species - from the island
27:00 – All involved in the South Georgia Habitat Restoration project are now a resource for other similar, logistically challenging initiatives being attempted worldwide
29:00 – Sarah takes us through some of the different groundbreaking projects being undertaken on SG in order to preserve both her nature and her unique place in history
40:00 - The centenary of Shackleton's death is coming up soon and there are plans for a commemoration...
43:00 - What Sarah and her on-island team do with their precious little time off in this wild wonderland
AntArctic Stories is brought to you by Twin Tracks Expeditions - your experts in small-ship expedition cruises and unique adventures to the Arctic and Antarctica. We love sharing our insider knowledge to help you find your next polar adventure.
18:50 – How the Park Rangers hitch a ride on the Icebreaker to “get to work” in this remote area
21:00 – On the development of guidelines to manage wildlife (polar bear) encounters based on AECO rules developed for Svalbard
23:00 – The critical importance of having park rangers with you in this remote and wild region
25:45 – How rangers deter polar bears when they are doing their conservation work on-site in the Park
30:00 – The challenges of managing a National Park that’s so huge and hard to monitor
32:00 – Alex shares a story of when the Russian Icebreaker 50 Years of Victory hit an iceberg that was higher than the icebreaker itself
36:00 – When Alex was stranded on land at the northernmost tip of Europe, Eurasia, and Russia at Cape Fligely in the fog with 40 passengers right in the thick of polar bear country
42:00 – Alexander’s “hobby” of protesting a landfill in Shies in the Russian North
50:00 – On the success of protests against landfills and the growing swell of support
AntArctic Stories is brought to you by Twin Tracks Expeditions - your experts in small-ship expedition cruises and unique adventures to the Arctic and Antarctica. We love sharing our insider knowledge to help you find your next polar adventure.
15:00 - How a photo of a whale Ted took outside of Deception Island and a visit to Palmer Station sparked an idea that turned into a movement
17:10 – happywhale.com is born with a combo of a scrappy passion for animals and Silicon valley smarts
17:50 – New image recognition technology allows happywhale.com to accurately match most whale photos
19: 30 – What happywhale.com does to get regular people on board to help identify whales (make it easy, make it rewarding)
23:45 – The importance of how feeling connected to individual animals motivates us to take care of them better
25:20 – The biggest threat to whales right now
26:10 – Happywhale.com as a tool for lifetime awareness
26:45 – Ted tells us about the inception of the Polar Citizen Science Collective
34:00 – Where Ted sees the Citizen Science program in the polar regions 5 years from now
37:00 – The world’s whale population has never been fully assessed and happywhale.com is the single largest data contributor to scientific organizations
38:10 – How a greater understanding of whales and migration patterns helps inform policies for things like vessel speeds in certain high-density areas
39:40 – Houston, we have a Citizen Science app!
46:10 – The potential (massive) impacts of happywhale.com and the Citizen Science Collective, proving that individuals can make a difference
LINKS
Happywhale.com - https://happywhale.com
Happywhale on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/happywhales
Happywhale on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/happyhumpback
The Polar Citizen Science Collective - http://www.polarcollective.org
AntArctic Stories is brought to you by Twin Tracks Expeditions - your experts in small ship expedition cruises and unique adventures to the Arctic and Antarctica. We love sharing our insider knowledge to help you find your next polar adventure.
AntArctic Stories is brought to you by Twin Tracks Expeditions - your experts in small ship expedition cruises and unique adventures to the Arctic and Antarctica. We love sharing our insider knowledge to help you find your next polar adventure.
AntArctic Stories is brought to you by Twin Tracks Expeditions - your experts in small ship expedition cruises and unique adventures to the Arctic and Antarctica. We love sharing our insider knowledge to help you find your next polar adventure.
9:15 - the genesis of the citizen science work that Bob spearheaded on expedition ships
11:05 - Bob proposes bringing science onto the ship that passengers can participate in and management says yes (PL - JM and Brandon)
11:30 - Bob starts cold calling scientists - old school! - to see who needs the data he would be able to collect
13:40 - Citizen Science in the polar regions is exploding in popularity
15:15 - Citizen Science doesn't just help scientists, it changes the travelers who are involved in collecting the data forever
16:30 - Bob tells us about his biggest challenges in developing the Citizen Science program in Antarctica
19:15 - The Arctic is changing even faster than the Antarctic and more resources are needed to help scientists get a better understanding of what's unfolding year over year
21:00 - What's next for Citizen Science?
24:00 - How individuals and organizations can learn more about getting involved in polar citizen science
AntArctic Stories is brought to you by Twin Tracks Expeditions - your experts in small ship expedition cruises and unique adventures to the Arctic and Antarctica. We love sharing our insider knowledge to help you find your next polar adventure.
13:50 - Crossing the Greenland ice sheet with 3 other British women, marrying the best of her different types of expeditionary training to find the best combo that worked
15:15 - Felicity slowly begins to realize through training a variety of different people for expeditions that in fact, she can help anyone who has the will complete a polar expedition because in the end, it's all about mindset
15:40 - Tired of seeing a bunch of middle-aged, middle-class white men from Northern Europe and North America get all the glory for their tales of polar achievement, Felicity decides to put her theory to the test and take a bunch of women from all over the globe to the South Pole
17:00 - On the challenges of leadership when you have a team with a variety of different needs that are so out of their element, as well as increasingly tired both mentally and physically
20:00 - How even being an experienced leader doesn't immunize you from second-guessing yourself and what happens when you don't perform as best as you'd like
24:10 - Felicity's solo crossing of Antarctica in 2012 and what it was like to be unutterably alone on the earth's most inhospitable continent
26:30 - On realizing she hadn't prepared at all for being solo for so long and how she managed to live with a constant level of fear throughout the expedition
33:30 - What it's like having a little devil on your shoulder all the time telling you to take it easy because no one will ever know
35:51 - On finding out that who you think you are in your core isn't necessarily who you truly are, and that being alone for so long makes you reassess what you're actually made of
36:55 - Not being a person who was into physical fitness to begin with, Felicity talks about what made her want to take on these incredible feats of endurance and become the explorer that she is
42:50 - On the challenge of trying to figure out what to do next with your life or your plans
45:00 - The importance of taking the time to spread the message of each expedition in order to create the results you wanted to achieve
48:20 - The challenges of raising funds and getting sponsorship for expeditions - does gaining credibility make things any easier?
53:30 - On the importance of making choices intentionally with regards to polar exploration as well as life outside of expeditions
59:00 - On being stuck in a line of work because you feel like you have to, and making sure that you are where you want to be
1:01:00 - What it's like fitting in to life in Reykjavik
1:05:50 - What's next? Editing is underway for the film about her North Pole Euro-Arabian expedition AND there's a book coming out as well
AntArctic Stories is brought to you by Twin Tracks Expeditions - your experts in small ship expedition cruises and unique adventures to the Arctic and Antarctica. We love sharing our insider knowledge to help you find your next polar adventure.
Discover shows related to Antarctic Stories, based on actual content similarities. Explore podcasts with similar topics, themes, and formats, backed by real data.
