Against the Rules is going to Vegas (by way of New Jersey!). Host Michael Lewis bets high and low to find out how Americans, and their state governments, got addicted to a new form of legalized gambling. This season, we’ll meet bookies, lobbyists, lawyers and professional sharps. All in their own ways trying to figure out why fans might hitch their life savings to their favorite team’s performance. 

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Sam Bankman-Fried was sentenced to 25 years in prison after being convicted of fraud and conspiracy. Michael Lewis and Lidia Jean Kott were there in court. They talk about what happened with Judging Sam’s legal expert, Rebecca Mermelstein, a former federal prosecutor and partner at O'Melveny and Myers.

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We're finally in the home stretch. Today the prosecution finished their cross examination of Sam Bankman-Fried, the defense followed up with a redirect, and then both sides rested. It’s Michael’s last day at court, but Lidia Jean will attend until the bitter end. They sit down to talk through the trial day’s events.

This conversation was recorded on October 31.

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.

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Sam Bankman-Fried finishes direct and faces withering cross-examination by the government’s chief prosecutor, Danielle Sassoon. Michael Lewis and Lidia Jean Kott share notes during lunch, then Lidia Jean sits down with Pushkin financial reporter and host Jacob Goldstein to talk through the day’s events.

This conversation was recorded on October 30.

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

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The day is finally upon us: Sam Bankman-Fried takes the stand. Michael Lewis and Lidia Jean meet up after a long day in court and discuss everything that went down.

This conversation was recorded on October 27.

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

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Michael Lewis finishes his book tour and joins Lidia Jean Kott in court. His timing, as usual, is impeccable. The government rests its case. And then, everyone thinks Sam Bankman-Fried will take the stand. Instead, in a surprise twist, Judge Kaplan sends the jury home. LJ and Michael meet up on the courthouse steps to talk through the day’s events. 

This conversation was recorded on October 26.

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

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After a few days off, the trial resumes tomorrow, October 26. The prosecution has said they will likely be ready to rest their case by midday. Michael Lewis, Lidia Jean Kott and Rebecca Mermelstein, a partner at the law firm O’Melveny & Myers, sit down to analyze the prosecution’s case and talk about what might happen next, including the possibility of Sam Bankman-Fried taking the stand.

This conversation was recorded on October 23.

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

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Voices of the victims of Sam Bankman-Fried’s alleged crimes have been few and far between during the prosecution’s presentation of its case. On today’s show, Lidia Jean Kott sits down with Jake Thacker, a tech worker from Portland, Oregon who borrowed money to bet big on FTX, only to be left holding the bag. He says he’s now bankrupt and unsure whether he’ll be able to keep his home. 

This conversation was recorded on October 23. 

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

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Another week come and gone, and like everything SBF, it wasn’t without a healthy dose of drama. Lidia Jean Kott catches Michael Lewis and Jacob Goldstein up on all that has gone down. 

This conversation was recorded on the evening of October 19.

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

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When nerdy gamer Sam Bankman-Fried rocketed to fame as the world’s richest 29-year-old, he pledged to donate his billions to good causes. But when Sam's crypto exchange FTX collapsed, billions of dollars went missing, and Sam was in handcuffs, those who knew him were left wondering — who was Sam really? A well-meaning billionaire who made a mistake? Or a calculated con man? From Wondery and Bloomberg, the makers of The Shrink Next Door, comes a new story of incredible wealth, betrayal, and what happens when “doing good” goes really, really, bad.

Binge all episodes of Spellcaster ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery App or on Apple Podcasts. Listen to Spellcaster. 

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Today on the show, Michael talks with Matt Levine, business columnist at Bloomberg News and author of the newsletter “Money Stuff.” Matt knows more about how crypto markets work than just about anyone else. And also about how they don’t work. Like when there’s a more than eight billion dollar hole nobody seems to have been able to fill. Matt and Michael talk trial, SBF and FTX. 

This conversation was recorded at 2pm on October 17. 

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

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It was supposed to be a quiet Monday in court, but it turned out to be everything but. Nishad Singh, a former top executive at FTX, and a close personal friend of the Bankman-Fried family took the stand. Lidia Jean calls Michael Lewis from court during her lunch break to get his take on Singh, and updates us with the latest as the SBF trial enters its third week.

This conversation was recorded on the evening of October 16. 

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.

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While Sam Bankman-Fried has been on trial, the cryptocurrency exchange he founded, FTX, has been going through bankruptcy proceedings. Jonathan Lipson, a professor at Temple Law School, tells Michael Lewis that he believes the proceedings have highlighted problems with the US bankruptcy system. 

Jonathan Lipson’s research paper “FTX’d: Conflicting Public and Private Interests in Chapter 11” is forthcoming in the Stanford Law Review. You can read a draft here. 

You can listen to our previous interview about the FTX bankruptcy with Jonathan’s co-author, David Skeel, here. 

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Week 2 of Sam Bankman-Fried’s trial is in the books. The prosecution has called witnesses, including star witness Caroline Ellison, and the defense has cross-examined. There have been dramatic, emotional moments, a secret recording and laughter in the overflow rooms. Lidia Jean has been in court, and Michael has been on book tour. In this episode they catch each other up. Michael is curious how the characters he got to know while reporting his book have come off in court.

This conversation was recorded on October 14. 

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.

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Caroline Ellison, former co-CEO of Alameda Research and Sam Bankman-Fried’s ex-girlfriend, spent 3 days on the stand this week. Ellison recently pled guilty to financial fraud, and is cooperating with the prosecution.

In this episode Lidia Jean Kott discusses Caroline’s testimony with Jacob Goldstein, financial reporter and author of the book Money. 

This conversation was recorded in the evening on October 12. 

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

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Caroline Ellison, former co-CEO of Alameda Research and Sam Bankman-Fried’s ex-girlfriend, takes the stand and has a lot to say. Ellison recently pled guilty to financial fraud, and is cooperating with the prosecution. In this episode Lidia Jean Kott discusses what came up on Day 1 of Caroline’s testimony with Jacob Goldstein, financial reporter and author of the book Money. 

This conversation was recorded in the evening on October 10. 

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.

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Week 1 of Sam Bankman-Fried’s trial is in the books. The jury is seated, opening statements have been given, and witnesses are taking the stand. Lidia Jean has been in court, and Michael has been on book tour. In this episode they catch each other up. Michael wants to know what it’s like inside the courtroom, and Lidia Jean is curious about what new information Michael is learning.

This conversation was recorded on October 7. 

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

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SBF’s trial has been on for three days, and a lot has happened: jury selection, opening statements, and the first witnesses. Pushkin co-founder Jacob Weisberg sits down with reporter Lidia Jean Kott and Rebecca Mermelstein, a partner at the law firm O’Melveny and Myers, to talk about what’s happened in court so far.

This conversation was recorded on October 5 at 3 pm ET.

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

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The trial of former FTX CEO Sam Bankman-Fried got underway yesterday in the Southern District of New York. First order of business? Empanelling a jury. Reporter Lidia Jean Kott was there. To get more insight into how jury selection works, Lidia Jean sat down with trial consultant Ellen Leggett.

Their episode was recorded on October 2 at 6pm ET, with an update after court on October 3.

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

To listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus

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Sam Bankman-Fried's trial starts today in the formidable Southern District of New York, with Judge Lewis A. Kaplan presiding. If convicted, the former multi-billionaire and CEO of crypto exchange FTX could spend the rest of his life behind bars. In this episode, Michael talks with court reporter and producer Lidia Jean Kott and former Southern District of New York prosecutor Rebecca Mermelstein, now a defense attorney with O'Melveny and Myers, about the charges against Sam and what we might expect as the trial gets underway.

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

This conversation was recorded on September 26th.

To listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus

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For the past year and a half, journalist Michael Lewis has been following crypto entrepreneur and former CEO of FTX Sam Bankman-Fried. The resulting book, "Going Infinite: The Rise and Fall of a New Tycoon", is out October 3. When Michael started his reporting, SBF was heralded as a wunderkind, a genius, a crypto innovator, a major philanthropist and political donor. Now, Sam Bankman-Fried is standing trial on multiple charges, including wire fraud, securities fraud, and misusing billions of dollars of customer funds. If convicted, he could spend the rest of his life behind bars. Michael was there – with unprecedented access – to see it all happen. In this episode, Pushkin's Jacob Weisberg interviews Michael about how he chose Sam as his book subject, what he thought the book was going to be about, and when he sensed things were going to come crashing down for Sam and FTX.

This conversation was recorded on September 13.

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

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Just a year ago, Sam Bankman-Fried was heralded as a wunderkind, a genius, a crypto innovator, a major philanthropist and political donor. He was worth tens of billions of dollars. FTX, the crypto exchange he founded, was buying Super Bowl ads. Now, he’s standing trial on multiple fraud charges. If convicted, he could spend the rest of his life behind bars. 

“Judging Sam: The Trial of Sam Bankman-Fried” is a special series from Michael Lewis and Against the Rules covering the daily workings of the trial. Through a combination of court reporting, interviews with experts, and insight from Michael Lewis, we’ll bring you the news of the trial and analysis you can’t find anywhere else.

“Judging Sam: The Trial of Sam Bankman-Fried” from Michael Lewis and Against the Rules starts Oct. 2, 2023. 

Questions for Michael? Submit them to atrpodcast.com

To listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm. iHeart Media is the exclusive podcast partner of Pushkin Industries.

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The former CEO of now-bankrupt crypto firm FTX, Sam Bankman-Fried has been charged with fraud and conspiracy. His trial is supposed to begin in October. In the final episode of On Background, Michael Lewis speaks to former prosecutor Rebecca Mermelstein, now a defense attorney with O’Melveny and Myers, about how prosecutors are building the case against Bankman-Fried, and how his defense team can prepare him.

For our coverage of Sam Bankman-Fried’s trial, check back here soon! 

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This fall we covered the trial of Sam Bankman-Fried, the founder of the failed cryptocurrency exchange FTX. He was found guilty of fraud and conspiracy and could face decades in prison. Now, we are covering his sentencing. Check here for those episodes starting the week of March 25th.

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In the battles over gun rights, a shadowy English nobleman from the 17th century has unexpectedly taken center stage. Who was he? What did he do that has — 300 years later — endeared him to a generation of legal scholars? Revisionist History explores the cult of personality around the mysterious Sir John Knight. Enjoy this episode from Revisionist History, another Pushkin Industries podcast.

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During the 2022 election cycle, crypto mogul Sam Bankman-Fried gave as much as $40 million in political donations. That whopping sum caught the attention of campaign finance watchdogs, even before Bankman-Fried was arrested and charged with various financial crimes. Michael Lewis talks to Jordan Libowitz of the Campaign for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW) to understand the complex world of campaign finance law. And we hear why SBF, in confessing his dark-money deeds, may be a game changer. (NOTE: after this episode was recorded, federal prosecutors announced they were dropping a campaign finance charge against Bankman-Fried.)

Go to atrpodcast.com to submit a question for Michael to answer in an upcoming episode.

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Andy Mitchell could be called a "doctor for business." His firm, Lantern Asset Management, buys up businesses in immediate need of cash and willing to sell at bargain-basement prices. Michael Lewis calls up Mitchell to get the "distressed asset" angle on the company at the center of Lewis's next book: the now extremely distressed crypto exchange, FTX. But along the way, we hear about other businesses on the skids, including the maker of Twinkies, and the Weinstein Company.

Head to atrpodcast.com and submit a question for Michael to answer in an upcoming episode.

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One-time crypto-currency king Sam Bankman-Fried was a big proponent of a philosophical movement known as “effective altruism,” or EA. Advocates of EA say we should use data and reason to find the best ways of doing good. EA’s popularity grew as investors like Bankman-Fried used it to guide generous donations to causes. Micheal Lewis speaks with two college students who got involved in effective altruism through clubs at their universities. Gabriel Mukobi and aL Xin explain the philosophy behind effective altruism and what impact the rise and fall of Sam Bankman-Fried has had on the movement.

Questions for Michael? Submit them by visiting atrpodcast.com.

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If you spend any time reporting on the world of crypto currency and Bitcoin, then you’re going to run across the name Molly White. She’s a software engineer who has been called "the cryptocurrency world's biggest critic." Michael Lewis gets her on the line for a lively conversation about why she spotted hucksterism and fraud early on in crypto's rise.

Questions for Michael? Submit them by visiting atrpodcast.com. 

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Often when a corporation declares bankruptcy, that happens at the end of a long and difficult road. But entering bankruptcy proceedings also means setting out on a new and equally difficult road. That’s where Michael Lewis finds the subject of his next book, Sam Bankman-Fried. The company Bankman-Fried founded, FTX, entered bankruptcy late last year. For some perspective on what could be one of the messiest bankruptcy cases of recent times, Michael turns to David Skeel. Skeel is a professor of corporate law at the University of Pennsylvania and one of the foremost historians of bankruptcy in the US.

Send a question to Michael Lewis, and he might answer it on an upcoming episode of Against the Rules. Head to atrpodcast.com.

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Why do people commit white-collar crimes? And how has the way we think about — and prosecute — white-collar criminals changed over time? As part of the background research for his next book, which is about Sam Bankman-Fried and FTX, Michael Lewis wants the historical view of financial fraudsters, embezzlers and Ponzi schemers. So he speaks with Eugene Soltes, professor at the Harvard Business School and author of Why They Do It: Inside the Mind of the White-Collar Criminal.

If you have a question for Michael Lewis about his writing process, head to atrpodcast.com.

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For his next book, Michael Lewis wants to find out how investigators manage to trace the murky trail of illicit crypto. Cryptocurrency started with the dream of cash changing hands without a trace. But that dream has turned into a nightmare for many would-be criminals. A new field has emerged of data geeks and law-enforcement experts trying to find out who’s behind transactions on the blockchain. Michael calls up Andy Greenberg, senior cybersecurity writer for WIRED and author of “Tracers in the Dark: The Global Hunt for the Crime Lords of Cryptocurrency” to find out how investigators crack the code of crypto. 

Questions for Michael? Submit them by visiting atrpodcast.com. 

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Michael Lewis's next book is all about Sam Bankman-Fried, founder of the crypto-currency exchange FTX, who now faces federal charges. As with all of his books, Lewis is talking with experts to get background context on the world his characters inhabit. For the first time, these interviews will be recorded, on the record.

In this special monthly series from Against the Rules, we'll hear Lewis in conversation with experts such as a tech wizard who traces secrets on the blockchain; a scholar of white-collar crime and punishment; a regulator who knows what crypto firms are – and aren’t – allowed to do with other people’s billions; and an insider who can follow the influence of crypto on campaign finance.

“On Background” from Michael Lewis and Against the Rules drops monthly, starting February 14th, 2023.

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Enjoy this episode of Freakonomics Radio, where Michael Lewis sat down with Stephen Dubner to discuss his book “Going Infinite: The Rise and Fall of a New Tycoon.”

Description from the original episode:
Lewis got incredible access to Sam Bankman-Fried, the billionaire behind the spectacular FTX fraud. His book is a bestseller, but some critics say he went too easy on S.B.F. Lewis tells us why the critics are wrong — and what it’s like to watch your book get turned into a courtroom drama.

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The United States had a pandemic plan. But when a pandemic came, we hesitated to follow it. The country was hobbled by argument and doubt. Much of that doubt came from experts who proposed that Covid might not be as lethal as scientists feared. Michael Lewis returns to the subject of his latest book, The Premonition, to understand why it's so hard to trust the truest signs of expertise: a willingness to follow the evidence.

If you’d like to keep up with the most recent news from this and other Pushkin podcasts be sure to sign up for our email list at Pushkin.fm.

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In which several people, including Rebecca Solnit, Katty Kay, and Maria Konnikova, help Michael understand the not-so-secret power of men to offer themselves up as experts, when they clearly are not.

If you’d like to keep up with the most recent news from this and other Pushkin podcasts be sure to sign up for our email list at Pushkin.fm.

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There’s one kind of expert whose role is enshrined in law: that of the expert witness, who’s called on to bolster one side of a case. But courtrooms are not great places for nuance. Overconfident expert testimony has been linked to countless wrongful convictions, especially in gang-related cases. Michael speaks with a new kind of expert witness: former gang members who struggle to counteract the testimony of police.

If you’d like to keep up with the most recent news from this and other Pushkin podcasts be sure to sign up for our email list at Pushkin.fm.

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Experts know more now than ever before. And we’re more critical of them than ever before, too. But one kind of expert really gets us riled up: the type who deals in probabilities. We hear from meteorologists, political forecasters, and even nurses about why calculating the odds is so hard, and why we all suffer the deadly consequences as a result.

If you’d like to keep up with the most recent news from this and other Pushkin podcasts be sure to sign up for our email list at Pushkin.fm.

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The right kind of expert, at the right time, can change everything. While working as a security guard at a pork-and-beans cannery in Kansas, Bill James started writing about baseball. But writing about it through the poetry of statistical analysis. It took a long time, but James's way of looking at the game changed more than just baseball.

If you’d like to keep up with the most recent news from this and other Pushkin podcasts be sure to sign up for our email list at Pushkin.fm.

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Why can’t we see the experts right in front of us, even when they're saving our lives? Maybe it's because the specialized knowledge of many experts defies good storytelling. We hear from a nonprofit trying to elevate the esoteric work of government experts, and we hear from one of their nominees. His work has changed the survival prospects for many lost at sea, but even those survivors have never heard his name.

If you’d like to keep up with the most recent news from this and other Pushkin podcasts be sure to sign up for our email list at Pushkin.fm.

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Athenahealth was just another healthcare provider facing the biggest problem US doctors face: not treating patients, but getting insurance companies to pay their bills. But then the company figured out how to fix the problem, by recognizing an overlooked expert toiling in the hospital basement.

If you’d like to keep up with the most recent news from this and other Pushkin podcasts be sure be sure to sign up for our email list at Pushkin.fm.

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In “Against the Rules,” journalist and bestselling author Michael Lewis takes a searing look at what’s happened to fairness—in financial markets, newsrooms, basketball games, courts of law, and much more. In Season 3, Michael tackles America’s expert problem. Why is it so hard to figure out who the real experts are? And why, once we’ve found them, are they so rarely the people calling the shots?

If you’d like to keep up with the most recent news from this and other Pushkin podcasts be sure to sign up for our email list at Pushkin.fm.

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After the surprise success of Liar’s Poker, publishers urged Michael Lewis to try his hand at fiction. It was a bad idea. But even award-winning fiction authors have struggled with failure. Michael speaks with Booker Prize-winning author George Saunders about the urge to imitate other writers, and what we all can learn from bad first drafts. We also hear why Saunders was identified early as a gifted student, while Michael Lewis was – emphatically – not.

You can order the new Liar’s Poker audiobook at Pushkin.fm/LiarsPoker.

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Michael Lewis did not rest long on his laurels after publishing Liar’s Poker. In the 1990s, he hit the presidential campaign trail, writing a series of magazine pieces. Some of his dispatches got adapted for audio by a then-new public radio show called “This American Life.” Michael speaks with the show’s creator, Ira Glass, about how they both found their voices as storytellers. Trigger warning: this episode contains vintage NPR sounds.

You can order the new Liar’s Poker audiobook at Pushkin.fm/LiarsPoker.

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Enjoy this episode from another Pushkin Industries podcast, Talk Easy with Sam Fragoso.

Upon taking a walk with crypto billionaire Sam Bankman-Fried, writer Michael Lewis had a sense that there might be a story here. In the intervening two years, that story has taken a series of twists and turns, resulting in Lewis’ new book Going Infinite: The Rise and Fall of a New Tycoon.

At the top, we walk through Bankman-Fried’s Manhattan trial, the subject at the center of this winding story, and why Lewis was first interested in observing him. Then, he unpacks Bankman-Fried’s belief in effective altruism, his probabilistic approach to trading, and how his Stanford law professor parents shaped his thinking.

On the back-half, we discuss the ten-day period of FTX’s collapse, the scene in the Bahamas as Bankman-Fried filed for bankruptcy, and why Lewis felt a kinship with Sam’s parents in that moment. To close, Michael reflects on his own journalistic tendencies and how he managed to write this book in the aftermath of great personal tragedy.

For thoughts, reflections, and guest suggestions, drop Sam a line at sf@talkeasypod.com.

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Liar’s Poker is set on a Wall Street where women were the last hired and first fired — and that was probably the least of their worries. Is Wall Street today any better for women? Michael speaks with Anne Clarke Wolff, who was in the training class at Salomon Brothers a few years after him. She is starting an investment bank that will be majority owned and managed by women and minorities. The firm’s nickname? “Salomon Sisters.”

You can order the new Liar’s Poker audiobook at Pushkin.fm/LiarsPoker.

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Liar’s Poker describes many of the mentors Michael Lewis had at the investment bank Salomon Brothers. He chose to keep some of their identities secret, out of a well-founded fear that the book might cost them their cushy Wall Street jobs. Now for the first time, we get to hear their side of the story and learn their names.

You can order the new Liar’s Poker audiobook at Pushkin.fm/LiarsPoker.

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For the first time in more than 30 years, Michael Lewis has re-read Liar’s Poker. That experience brought up a lot of questions — especially, why is a book set in the pre-Internet Wall Street of the 1980s still relevant today? So Michael turned to Jacob Goldstein, finance reporter and host of the Pushkin show "What’s Your Problem?". They discuss how Liar’s Poker foreshadowed the ups and downs of the world we live in now.

You can listen to Jacob Goldstein’s new show “What’s Your Problem?” here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/whats-your-problem/id1602541473

And you can order the new Liar’s Poker audiobook here: https://www.pushkin.fm/audiobook/liars-poker

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Michael Lewis published his first book, Liar's Poker, in 1989. It’s about his time as a bond salesman on Wall Street — and it was a runaway best seller. Pushkin Industries is re-releasing it for the first time as an unabridged audiobook, read by the author. And to celebrate, Lewis has made a special mini-series about the book. Over the course of five weeks, he'll revisit people he worked with, explore how he found his voice as a writer, and ask why Wall Street firms still assign the book to their interns today.

You can order Liar’s Poker audiobook at Pushkin.fm/LiarsPoker.

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Pulitzer Prize-winning novelist Geraldine Brooks interviews Michael Lewis about his new book “The Premonition: A Pandemic Story.” They also discuss how Michael started his writing career and why growing up in New Orleans made him a better storyteller. This conversation was recorded as part of the Live Talks Los Angeles series and posted May 19, 2021.

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