Homeschoolers from all walks of life, finding out how they came to homeschool, how they choose curricula, what styles of homeschooling work for their family, and how they navigate life.
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Keri is a mom of four young children who runs a booming handmade pottery business while educating her children at home in the mountains of Western Massachusetts. After receiving a Bachelor of Arts from MassArt, Keri went through a winding path of experiences and education including online courses, apprenticeships, and Mastermind groups, eventually recognizing that owning her own business would be a way to support her dream of educating her future family at home. Her children, 8 months, 3 years, 6 years, and 9 years old, are starting out their homeschooling journey with a mix of unschooling, passion-led learning, Waldorf-inspiration, and lots and lots of living books & read alouds.
Show Notes
00:00 Opening
02:32 Homeschooling in Massachusetts
05:54 The Journey into Art and Ceramics
06:08 Introduction to the Homeschool Journey
06:08 Challenges and Triumphs in Homeschooling
07:09 Finding a Creative Path: From Hobbyist to Professional
10:54 Building a Business: The Early Days of Sift Ceramics
14:54 The Impact of COVID-19 on Family and Business
18:57 Collaborations and Growth in the Ceramics World
19:23 Igniting a Passion for Learning
27:05 Establishing a Home and Studio in Massachusetts
31:07 Refining Skills and Expanding Offerings
34:47 Success Through Strategic Collaborations
38:44 Embracing Opportunities and Defining Success
44:58 The Journey to Education
48:01 Exploring Homeschooling
52:35 Balancing Work and Family Life
57:51 Adapting Educational Approaches
01:13:30 Creative Fulfillment in Business
Table of Contents
Definitions
Project based learning
Project based learning is a teaching method that uses hands-on projects and real world experience to facilitate learning. It prioritizes active learning and inquiry-based learning, sometimes focusing on a given project for an extended period of time.
Nature studies
Nature study is the objects and phenomena in the natural world through direct and engaging inquiry. It involves unstructured time outdoors to ask and learn about the world around them. Nature study is an integral part of Charlotte Mason's educational philosophy. You can read more at Charlotte Mason Education. org.
Living Books
Living books are engaging, narrative or conversation books written with factual information that "brings the topic to life." They are usually written by a single author who is passionate about the subject. You can read more about living books at Charlotte Mason Homeschooling.
Rituals of Connection
Rituals of connections are little actions repeated in sequence that enhance your relationship with your children and set the tone for homeschooling for the day. These can include things like lighting a candle, playing a short game, singing a song, having a dance party, or some other short enjoyable activity you and your child do together.
Unschooling
Unschooling is a bit of a misnomer. It is not, as its name implies, not doing any school. Instead it is following your child’s interest in facilitating their education. Many families will strew different items and resources, observe their children, and have discussions with their children to find their children’s interest, and then further their studies by helping them find more resources for learning. Strewing is when resources or ‘invitations for play’ such as logic puzzles, toys, games, or potential activities are left in prominent areas of the house where a homeschool child might frequent to allow them to engage with the material or not. Unschooling can look very different such as internships with community members, building or creating on their own or can look very typical such as using a textbook to learn about an interest that a child has. The defining factor in the unschooing philosophy is a child’s autonomy in a child-led educational journey. The parent does a lot of work finding resources, providing opportunities, and facilitating activities to support that journey.
Transcript
Keri (00:00)
we were like, this this is losing the plot. we've lost the plot. We're doing this so that we can be together and we're never together.
the real truth is that my oldest is the first person that I've educated at home. I think that it would be silly of me to not admit that I'm figuring it out based on her as a person.
I feel very proud of Young Me for doing this. I knew about this ceramics duo and I just walked into their studio one day and I said, Hey, I wanna learn about ceramics. Do you think I could work for you for free? I'm here for the next three months and I'll come whenever you want me to.
they taught me how to mix glazes from scratch. They taught me how to recycle clay. They taught me how to design pieces. they helped me design a collection of my own. it was really an important part of the puzzle
So got kicked out of the beginning pottery class and this kind of rekindled my love for art making and
I was like, what have I been doing all this time? what I love. It is what lights me up.
It's fulfilling to make things for other people with their designs in mind and have them go out into the world, but it's a different kind of fulfillment to have my own creative vision come to life and go out into the world.
right away I started making money. it wasn't much more than six hundred and fifty dollars a month. It was maybe like
a thousand dollars, which was gonna cover my rent and the cost of my clay for my students and maybe gas and that's it. I always think back to that as the most humble beginning.
Della (01:39)
This week we're meeting Keri from Sift Ceramics. Keri is a mom of four young children who runs a booming handmade pottery business while educating her children at home in the mountains of western Massachusetts. After receiving a Bachelor of Arts from Mass Art,
Keri went through a winding path of experiences and education, including online courses, apprenticeships, and mastermind groups, eventually recognizing that owning her own business would be a way to support her dream of educating her future family at home. Her children, eight months, three years, six years, and nine years old, are starting out their homeschooling journey with a mix of unschooling, passion led learning, and
Waldorf inspiration, and lots and lots of living books and read alouds.
Della (02:32)
This is a homeschool journey.
Della (03:33)
Hi Keri how are you?
Keri (03:35)
Hi Della. Good. How are you doing?
Della (03:36)
Good. I'm glad that you're here. Thanks for joining me.
Keri (03:40)
First.
Della (03:40)
we've been starting with what state you're located in and the homeschool requirements for that state.
Keri (03:46)
Okay. so I am in Massachusetts. I live in Western Massachusetts and we have a homeschool law where it's called an approval state. So we have to submit a letter of intent for our child the summer before they're gonna start their grade and ask to get approved by the school district that we reside in. the application is
just the letter of intent, that we're of sound mind, our personal qualifications, which can just be that you're the parent and that you have their best interests in mind, and then a proposed curriculum which can be as much information or as little as you want. I have found that it's based really on the town that you're living in, my town and the town over.
will have different feedback from that. there's a list of required subjects, probably what you would expect reading, writing, arithmetic, geography, the basic things that you'd expect from public school too. But we have a piece of legislature in Massachusetts called the Brunel decision. And I'm not sure if that's widespread or not, but in Massachusetts particularly it states that
You don't have to match the schedule of public school. basically that the suggestion is a hundred and eighty-day school year or nine hundred hours of instruction, but that's a suggestion and you're not required to match that. You just have to have a curriculum that is kind of matching up with the things that the state suggests that you are teaching your children. So it kind of protects against overreach and
I don't have experience teaching homeschool or, you know, instructing homeschools in a different state, but I find it to be very easy to homeschool here and I don't find that the laws are prohibitive or anything
Della (05:34)
is there any requirements for approval
Keri (05:37)
the end of the year I'm asked to submit a progress report and it's very flexible. Like submit a a Word document saying what we've done and what books we've read and what we've followed and they just say great. I've
never had any pushback and we really s do submit the bare minimum, not because we do the bare minimum, but just because I don't find it important for the government school to be involved in what I'm teaching my kids, for lack of a better word.
Della (06:08)
This is a homeschool journey.
Della (07:09)
one of the reasons that I wanted to have you on the podcast today is that you are a working mother who is also homeschooling,
You have your own business of making ceramics, pottery, which is my favorite by the way. So I'm interested in how you came to that throughout your life.
Keri (07:21)
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Okay. I was very lucky to be at a high school when I was a teenager that had an amazing arts program. so I actually did pottery for the first time in high school. I started when I was fifteen and I was a fine student, but I and like English and history and stuff is not what lit me up. art lit me up. It always has ever since I was a little kid. And then I I went this high school with a great arts program and
I was the person who was like, stopping math at algebra two so that I could fill up my schedule with arts classes. So I started ceramics when I was 15. I did it through four years of high school. and I mean, I learned how to do the basics, but I I wasn't pushed to like be great or excellent really. It was just kind of dabbling, doing it a few hours a week and enjoying myself.
I continued on in arts education in college and I actually studied painting in college and I went to Massachusetts College of Art and Design in Boston. So I have a fine arts degree and spent four years in college studying fine arts, which think it led me to ceramics because I'm here as a potter
making really functional work and work that serves a purpose, work that can objectively s be seen by anybody as good or bad for the most part. And I think that it was a little bit of a rejection of being in art school and making subjective work and having to like defend the emotions behind my artwork and talking about color theory and stuff.
it's not so accessible to people. Like a a painting is not just automatically something that anyone is going to appreciate and use in their daily life. after school I didn't really make art for a few years. I rejected that part of myself. being in formal education for art I think made me need to take a break from it in a way.
So one day when I was in my early 20s, a friend asked if I wanted to take a pottery class with her. And lived in a small city at the time, and the pottery class was of the woods, in one of the hilltowns that was near where we lived. So we drove out there 40 minutes once a week, and we took this four-week pottery class. I remember sitting down for the first time.
It was a beginner class. So I teacher thinks that she's teaching people from scratch that have never touched clay before. And in my mind, I hadn't done clay in like years or maybe even more at that time. So I was like thinking of myself as a beginner and I sit down in the class and it just comes back to me. It was a wheel throwing class. It just came back to me like riding a bike. as part of the tuition for the class, I was supposed to have made like five or six pieces over the four weeks.
I think I filled a whole kiln by myself. I made like 60 pieces. it was agreed upon in the tuition that I was gonna get my work fired and be able to glaze it and everything. did it for me, but she told me that I can't take any more classes because I'm not the student that she had in mind. So got kicked out of the beginning pottery class and this kind of rekindled my love for art making and
I was like, what have I been doing all this time? what I love. It is what lights me up. And I think it sparked my love for being creative again in a way that I had lost a little bit after school. so from there I looked for something that was more appropriate for my skill level, and I found an apprenticeship studio in my town, and it was just this sweet little community studio in the basement of a row, like like a mini strip wall.
They had some storefronts downstairs and there was a community studio there. So I didn't have a lot of money at that time. I was was nannying after college for a lovely family, but didn't pay a lot and I couldn't afford the community membership. So I traded working for the head potter there for my trade for space. So
She had a beautiful production line and I would prepare clay for her and sometimes certain like simple forms for her. I would clean the studio. and basic work for her in exchange for my space. was there for two years and I feel that I refined my skill in a way that I had never been able to before because
Pottery, a lot of it is about repetition and doing it over and over again. And I was able to do that in that space. I was feeling the need to professionally make a little bit of a pivot. I
loved the family that I needed for. I'm actually still in contact with them. I go see these kids that I native for who are now in high school and college. I go see their theater performances. So it was a really hard decision to leave these people that I loved and worked with them for four years. I helped raise these little girls and they were just really important to me. but I was feeling a desire to like out and kind of enter back into the
of art. So I split my time. I I also got into farming at the same time, I worked at a farm and then I worked at a glass studio. And glass is similar to ceramics in a lot of ways. they both get fired in kilns, they both use similar materials in terms of chemical composition and stuff like that.
that time, I watched this husband and wife duo run a business. they ran a business and they had two young kids and they sold wholesale. They sold direct to customers. They did shows and they made good money. was their entire livelihood.
I watched them run a website, I watched them build the back end of a website. they were running a business, and that is something that I had never seen done before. Even working with that potter before, I wasn't really involved with the business side of what she did. time with the Glass Studio, my eyes were opened. I saw them doing that and I was like, that's how you do that. I think I could do that too.
While I was working with them, I was still at this pottery studio as an assistant, honing my own skills. And my husband decided that he wanted to pursue higher education. he's a musician, he's a bass player, his background is in jazz bass, but he was interested in pursuing degree in classical bass.
so his undergrad was in jazz music and African American music studies. And at this point when I was at the Glass Studio, he wanted to pursue a master's degree so that he could be a performing classical musician that played the upright bass. he applied to a bunch of schools around the country and he ended up getting into all of them, very proud. But the one that he chose to go to was the University of Colorado in Boulder.
Which it was a big move for little us that only had ever lived in western Massachusetts.
Della (13:56)
there's just two of you at this point, right? You and your husband? okay.
Keri (13:59)
My daughter was born my daughter was
one. Yeah, she was one. I had my daughter while I was working at the Glass Studio. joined the family during that time where I was entering into the Glass Studio. And so the three of us picked up and moved to Boulder. And this was in twenty nineteen. she was about to turn two.
now we all know it happens in twenty twenty. So my husband has signed up to be a a performance degree and we pick up
summer twenty nineteen, moved to Colorado and we
obviously COVID happens in twenty twenty, so it just upended everything that he was planning.
you can't pursue a performance degree when there's no performing because of COVID. the performance venues were closed down, classes were closed down for him. it was just nothing was happening. it's a very destined moment in our lives. because also keep in mind that we're new parents and trying to form our lives around parenthood and having this new human in our life.
And he discovered about this program that was a new program in school. It was called an arts administration diploma. So he was gonna end up with his master's degree and also at the same time pursue this diploma. that was an arts administration degree, and his concentration was going to be
in development. So for anyone that
wouldn't know development runs everything that we know. Hospitals have development people that raise money, colleges have development people that raise money, nonprofits.
is a very present job in most places that we experience because people need to raise money. And that's what a development person does. he of saw this as a moment where kind of twofold.
This career ladder is like you start at the bottom, you work there for two years, and then you go up and up and up and up and up. So the salary component is easy to, make a lot of money in a short amount of time. And also it would make it so that he didn't have to leave us to go perform.
this is why I say it was
destined moment. He thought he was gonna be a performer.
But that would mean he's gone for weeks at a time. He's not there on nights and weekends. as a new dad, he was like, wait a minute, that is not actually what I want. So it was a big pivot for him in his own life. Now, in the meantime, I'm in Colorado with him, trying to figure out how to make money on my own. And I had that experience with the Glass Studio and with my past.
pottery experience. did a apprenticeship with a professional potter also, kind of in the same way that I did with the glass studio. I worked with them just for three months to see what the glass studio was teaching me and how it was applied to ceramics. So how to ship ceramics, how to scale up production in order to
go from making two pieces to making a hundred and fifty kind of thing.
Della (16:42)
I imagine that seeing the business side of that was really integral into you thinking that you had the ability to do the business yourself, especially the scale up portion that you're about.
Keri (16:57)
it was another husband and wife duo that was running a small business that was mostly in person sales. They had very little wholesale or direct to customer. It was mostly selling at markets and open house studio things that they would sell in person sales.
they taught me how to mix glazes from scratch. They taught me how to recycle clay. They taught me how to design pieces. they helped me design a collection of my own. it was really an important part of the puzzle It was very short lived, but I learned so much in that three months.
Della (17:29)
The other thing that I'm thinking about is that as homeschoolers, we have the opportunity at an earlier age to allow our children to apprenticeship with someone else or get that experience. Like my daughter really enjoys animals and she has volunteered for years at our local wildlife rehabilitation facility and you
are going through this apprenticeship after college. Not that that's not useful, but just the advantage of being able to start that at a younger age if the child knows the direction that they're want to go in.
Keri (18:00)
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah. I feel very proud of Young Me for doing this. I knew about this ceramics duo and I just walked into their studio one day and I said, Hey, I wanna learn about ceramics. Do you think I could work for you for free? I'm here for the next three months and I'll come whenever you want me to. And they were like, Yeah. it was a bold moment that I look back and
I can see how important it was for me and I feel proud of young me for walking in there and asking for what I wanted.
Della (18:37)
it does sound like you've got a lot out of it, more than what you had previously gotten, particularly the business side. Like honing your craft is one thing, but to understand the business side of something is completely different part of it. And I think it it helps to see them.
Keri (18:43)
Yes. Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
It was very interesting to see too about how these two different duos, the glass couple and then the ceramics couple were both running successful businesses, but very differently. Because it opened my eyes, to the fact that I didn't have to replicate my mentors at the Glass Studio or my mentors at the ceramics studio. I could do something that actually just worked for me and not model it after someone. You do it how it works for your own business.
Della (19:23)
One of the things that I wanted to talk about was your experience with your business coach. Because at some point you had requested help from a business coach to help you scale and facilitate growing your business.
Keri (19:37)
when I was a student in high school, I
was the kind of student where I got good grades and I learned the information to take the test and then I took the test and I forgot the information and I was a fine student but I really didn't care about it. And I think that learning about ceramics and learning about running a business lit a passion for learning in me and I was on fire for learning this information. it also
showed me where a love of learning can be influential to my own kids. I was taking classes, I was receiving coaching from the cultural council and a business coach locally to me. some of the things that I did that could be good resources for other people, took a online course called Making Art Work by Emily Jeffords, who's a fine artist and she teaches
creative entrepreneurs like myself, whether it's a painter or a photographer or a ceramicist, it's a course that is meant for creative entrepreneurs to make a business that makes money. it walks you through everything. It walks you through photography and setting up a website and reaching out to customers. And there was a really important component of that, which was the mastermind cohort. So I met, think eight or nine other
budding entrepreneurs that were creative entrepreneurs and we met weekly to bounce our own businesses off of each other and it was a really amazing community. that was probably one of the most influential things in giving me the confidence to be an entrepreneur. Another one that was really influential was called the MultiStream Machine, which is by Product Boss. And I think that both of those are still being offered, it was similar.
to making artwork in the way that it was teaching similar things, but I found it valuable to hear another perspective. also the point of that one is to incorporate multiple income streams into your business and how that can set the target higher. Like you don't have to be making 10 grand. You can be making a hundred grand and buy.
incorporating multiple streams of revenue. This is how you can scale that. I live in a town where I share space here with one of the biggest contemporary art museums in the country. So there's a lot of resources for artists in terms of education and our cultural council is pretty supportive of people like me.
I received counsel for free through a grant through my town, a one-on-one business coaching with a mentor that we had six weeks of business coaching where I did things like identify what I could delegate and what I needed to do myself, I could outsource my bookkeeping, for example, I now outsource my digital.
media design it was kind of identifying how I need to spend my personal time versus where I can save time and give those jobs to other people. We have amazing group of small business owners in the area that did group meetups. That was really valuable for meeting people locally when I first got here and also
I really think that one of the most valuable things that you can do as a small business owner is to find community of small business owners. It doesn't have to be somebody that's doing the same thing as you. Some of the people that I was in community with were people who own a bookshop, people who run a photography business. It could be totally different, but we all have something in common. And sometimes it's just important to hear the perspective from somebody else that is in a similar boat.
I took a couple of ceramic specific courses that would teach me the science behind the blaze chemistry
Della (23:03)
Okay, so now you have your oldest and you and your husband have moved to Boulder, Colorado, for his music education, COVID hits, that switches over and now he's doing different program.
Keri (23:20)
Yeah, so he's still doing the classical, he still has a master's degree in classical performance.
he has the diploma in arts administration with the concentration in development. one of the reasons why we chose to do the school in Colorado is because he was going to receive free tuition and also get paid to do some teaching assistantship while he was there.
little naive us. We were like, cool, this sounds great. This oughta work out. And then we moved to Boulder, Colorado, which is one of the more expensive places to live in the country. his stipend from the school was eleven hundred dollars. our rent was seventeen hundred dollars. we had to figure it out. I always think back to these times.
the real thing that pushed me to start a business is the desperation of that situation. Because it's not just us. We have toddler at this point. I had to figure out how to make money. I didn't want to put her in daycare. I didn't want to be away from her. I really did feel completely desperate. we were very, very fortunate
Boulder has really high taxes and they have incredible benefits. for people who are, low income. we existed off of that. That's the only reason that we ate food, and that's the only reason that we got by. I will never not have gratitude for those services for my family in that time. it really made it so that we could get by.
Della (24:40)
that
is the purpose of the services, to have a safety net. I also share that with you. When I was in middle school, my parents divorced it, put us in the lower income bracket.
Keri (24:43)
Yes. Yes.
Della (24:54)
in the schools that I grew up in, I qualified, and can I just say, like adolescence? Going through that in adolescence was a wild channel. But we also had that safety net for a little while. And it wasn't forever, it was just a couple years, but we had that safety net. And then we also had community, which was wonderful. There was a community of people, one person that worked in
Keri (24:59)
I don't think I'll a look at it. And it'll take a lot of things.
that interview the
nice reason to do somebody. Mm-hmm.
Della (25:18)
the middle school program with me kind of sponsored me and air quotes.
She made sure that I had my letter jacket. She made sure that I had entry fees for cheerleading competitions. she made sure that I had the little things that made it so that I could participate in the programs at the same level that the other kids were participating. And it's life changing.
Keri (25:25)
In your thing is gonna find
Yeah.
Yes, it is life changing. It really is. I don't know what we would have done. I like to think that we would have figured it out, but I don't know how we would have. it kept us on our feet in a really hard time. I'll always be grateful and I'll always support those systems for people who are in need.
Della (25:59)
Same. you started a studio in Boulder then?
Keri (26:02)
what happened was when I moved there I had done all this research about the potters in the area and I thought that I would do the same thing that I did before and I would waltz into their studio and say, I'm here and I have skills and I can help you. Please let me into your studio. I met with two pretty successful potters that I had found through online and social media they were like, We're so happy to make the connection, but we don't need anybody else in the studio right now.
I kept searching. I looked at some community spaces. we didn't have a lot of money. I couldn't afford to pay a monthly fee when I didn't know that I was gonna be making money right away. what ended up happening, and again, a life-changing moment for me, the life-changing moment for me, is that I found this community studio and I
Tried to work there and it was kind of like a reflection back on the teacher that kicked me out of her class. She was like, You can't work here. this is for people who are making five pieces a week. You're gonna be making hundreds of pieces a month. You can't work here. I was like, Well, can I just be here for a little bit, a little bit until I find something different? And she like regretfully let me in.
she told me that there was a potter opening up another studio down the street. I drove by this studio that was opening up down the street street is all these single family homes right next to each other, really small yards, the cutest little bungalow style homes in the place where I lived. I found the sign that said her business name
Ceramic studio. there was no one in the driveway, and I'm looking in the windows like a creep, trying to figure out is this the place that she's talking about? I see a kiln I see a wheel and I see clay, and I'm like, this is it. I knock on the door and nobody's home. I drove by probably three or four times a day for an entire week, waiting to see this person at the studio.
Della (27:46)
Keri
Keri (27:47)
week later, I see her there unloading clay in her driveway. And I get out of my car and I'm like, Hi, I'm Keri Do you have space in your studio? And she's like, Well, hey, let me think about it. and I literally told her, I'm bridging the gap from hobbyist to production potter. if you give me a space in the studio, it will change my life. Please consider it.
And I gave her my number and I didn't hear from her for a couple days. So I went back because I was determined to get a space there. she told me, yes, you can move in. It's six hundred and fifty dollars a month. you can have this room in the space and you can fire your work in my kiln. the space was like a bedroom. It was a converted house. She had a bedroom.
I would have a potential bedroom and then there's a third space and then a big wide open community room. I said, Yes, okay, thank you. then I went home to my husband and said, I have no idea how I'm gonna afford six hundred and fifty dollars a month, but I have a studio and I'm gonna figure it out. I started my business that day.
And the way that I figured it out at first was that I taught ceramics. I put up flyers around town and I taught four week sessions of hand building or wheel throwing. the response in that area was overwhelming. I had more people than I could really take. so right away I started making money. it wasn't much more than six hundred and fifty dollars a month. It was maybe like
a thousand dollars, which was gonna cover my rent and the cost of my clay for my students and maybe gas and that's it. I always think back to that as the most humble beginning. All I wanted to do is to be able to pay for my space and then I would grow from there.
Della (29:23)
That's awesome. I didn't realize that you taught ceramics, but that's a wonderful beginning.
Keri (29:29)
Yeah, it was
the way that I could make money right away. Because ceramics is a long process art form. Something that I made today isn't going to be done for a few weeks. I literally had four weeks to make six hundred and fifty dollars. my students would pay me up front and I would have that money right away. So yeah, I did it. I did it.
Della (29:32)
Right.
did it. That's awesome.
what did you do with your daughter while you were teaching with ceramics? Were you altering the time with your husband?
Keri (29:55)
because of it being COVID, his entire course load was remote. Again, it's like all of these pieces of the puzzle, when I look back at my life and the spirit of my life, it's so strangely meant to be I wouldn't have been able to do this if COVID didn't happen and he wasn't at home. we still somewhat do tag team parenting. he comes in, I go out, which is hard. definitely
one of the harder parts of the way that we live and work. so he would be with her. Sometimes I would actually take her to the studio with me and she would play with clay or bring books with her. I'd have pillows set up on the floor. but as you can imagine, it's a little bit distracting to be covered in clay and have to answer the questions of a two year old all the time. that was just every now and then.
Della (30:37)
How did you move into producing pottery?
Keri (30:40)
I worked out of the studio for a little bit over two years. during the first year that I was there, I
honed my skills. I practiced and practiced and practiced and I developed my first personal collection of work. a lot of ceramics revolves around glaze chemistry and it's pretty complicated and it's not like mixing paints where you can choose, red and blue and mix it together and make purple. it really is chemistry and there's a lot of unexpected
results that can come out. I spent a lot of time developing a palette of glazed colors. keep in mind I've never done this before. I learned a little bit about it from my mentorship with the husband and wife couple before I had moved, but I really didn't know what I was doing. I had taken an online class to kind of wrap my head around what even is glaze chemistry. but that first year I really spent teaching
private lessons and also group workshops and then mastering my craft. actually I'll never forget this. I was there with the owner of the building and I had gotten this collection together and it's actually where the name Sift Ceramics comes from is that I was collecting
clay samples to find out what clays I wanted and glaze samples and literally sifting through the materials of creating this collection, quite literally, sifting through which pieces I wanted to put into production mode, which glazes I wanted to scale up and use on my work. that was the time where I named my business because I was sifting through the process to try to find my collection. but the part that I'll never forget is that
the woman that owned the building was such a cheerleader for me. She was also running her own extremely successful business, all e-commerce based. she really pushed me to do this. I think that she saw in me that I could, but that it's hard to start a business from scratch when you feel like you don't actually have the experience and you don't know what you're doing. so I
Put my stuff on Etsy. That was where my first collection went up. three minutes after I put everything up, I hear ching. That's what happens when you get a sale on Etsy. was like, my God, it just went up three minutes ago. And I look over at her. I was like, Lindsay, it just went up three minutes ago. I have a sale. then I look at who bought it and it was her. I felt really rooted on by her in that moment.
I actually don't even remember how I did it, but I sold everything in that collection. I didn't have a social media following but the people that I knew showed up and they bought stuff and I made a a few thousand dollars that day, my first collection launch. So yeah. Yeah, yes.
Della (33:10)
wow, in one day with I mean I know
it's all the work is not one day. I know it took weeks and weeks
Keri (33:16)
Yeah.
stuff of the photography and the staging and the marketing and all of the stuff that goes into the business side of it. But
Della (33:21)
Mm, right.
the descriptions
that you have to upload and the photographs, right.
Keri (33:29)
Yep.
But I felt rich. when you make no money and suddenly you've made three thousand dollars selling your artwork, it was like a fire was lit underneath me. and shortly after that I had another really life-changing moment, which was that
a woman online that a lot of people that know my work are familiar with. Her name is Kate and she runs a online subscription program called Venison for Dinner, among many other things. she put out a call for potters.
I just happened to follow her and she put out a question box on Instagram that said, Anyone know any potters? I'm interested in doing a product collaboration. And I sent her a message. And she Yeah, that's it. It's as simple as that. And she said, Great, this is what I'm looking for. I want mugs with my logo on them. Send me a sample. And so I made
Della (34:09)
That's awesome. I've always wondered how you guys hooked up.
Keri (34:23)
four or five samples with different colors, different shapes, different ways of having her logo on the front. I sent them to her and she chose me.
We
just had our tenth launch together. we've been doing this for five years now. it's become a cornerstone of my business. It started out with kind of humble starts. I think we made a hundred and fifty mugs that first time, which to me, having never made more than
twenty of something, I thought that it was the coolest thing of all time. now at our peak, we made 500 mugs was our biggest launch. it really grew. this is the collection that sells out in a day. it's been such a blessing for my family because it has been a cornerstone of my business and has allowed me to feel a lot of success in what I'm offering.
that was one of the biggest moments the early stages of my business.
Della (35:12)
And that's a wholesale account, right?
Keri (35:14)
I do wholesale, but this is a little bit different. I have kind of a couple things that I offer. I do wholesale where it's like a fifty-fifty split essentially, where I send a box of mugs to someone else and they sell them. This is I fulfill the orders and so because of that it's a different split. So it's a percentage split it's a basically paying like a commission to my collaborator essentially for doing the marketing.
Della (35:18)
Okay.
Keri (35:38)
and marketing it to their audience.
Della (35:40)
makes sense. And where are the children in this now? Do you just still have your oldest?
Keri (35:45)
So I have an oldest daughter, and then my second daughter, she was born in twenty twenty. that period of time where I was mostly focused on teaching, she was born. that was the first time that I was pregnant and doing this all with a baby. I have so many pictures of her on my back or in the sling.
Asleep on the couch at the studio in Colorado. She's my studio baby.
Della (36:07)
Wow, I am just amazed, Keri that you could do all that while having two children those ages. So how old was your oldest when your second was born?
Keri (36:16)
Yeah, they're three years apart, almost exactly. Their birthdays are just a couple weeks apart.
Della (36:17)
Okay.
So you have a three year old and a newborn while you're teaching pottery. That's amazing.
Keri (36:27)
Yes.
Della (36:30)
Okay, so what happened after Boulder, Colorado? 'Cause you're obviously not still in Boulder.
Keri (36:37)
Yeah.
we did like it there, but as you could imagine, it was really weird to be in a place that wasn't our home away from our family during a time where everything was closed. I don't know how it was in the rest of the country, but even Boulder, it's known for its outdoors spaces and parks and hiking trails They were like roped off. We couldn't go anywhere. We were stuck inside.
It was a really bad year for fire, so we couldn't even go in our yard without choking on the smoky air. it was a hard couple years. right at the end of college, he had applied to a bunch of jobs.
During this particular time the job market was incredibly saturated in all fields, but especially in his field. he didn't hear back from anyone. he had this job offer at the Philharmonic Orchestra and we were like, All right, I guess we're here. we signed a lease for a house just to rent.
But it was an improvement in our living situation. We had a little bit more money to spend and we could live a little bit more comfortably now that we weren't existing off of a student stipend. we thought that we were settling in to live in Boulder. then one day he got a call from this college that he had applied to.
Pretty much every college has a development department. most of the ones that he applied to were in our region where we're from in Massachusetts, but this one that he applied to was close to his hometown and close to the town where my family lived and where my parents grew up. far enough away that we weren't super familiar with the town, but
it felt like home. he took the interview and they offered him a second interview and a third interview and a fourth interview. I think you might get this job. And he did get it. he took the job and they said, You have two weeks to get here. So we
ripped up our lease and he quit his job with two weeks' notice, it's funny, we still live in that town and we have pretty deep roots here and we really like it here. But we thought of our move as a transitional place where we would go until he got to the next thing. we moved back for this job that he was at for two years and he's no longer there but
came back for this job basically and we're we're so happy that we got to come back and be closer to family and a place that feels a lot more like home for us.
Della (38:51)
And you have stayed in that place even though he's not at the same job?
Keri (38:56)
Yeah. So kind of funny. before we even found housing, I found a studio that I'm in right now and my studio space is in a
old mill building. It's an old cotton mill that was built in the late 1800s and they transitioned it to artist spaces. we're still in the same town all this time later. I've been in the studio all along. It was been almost five years.
Della (39:20)
And when was your third child born, your son?
Keri (39:24)
Yeah, so my third child was born in twenty twenty three.
And at that point in my business
I started being able to look ahead because of the collaboration with Venice for Dinner, I was getting more and more accounts that were finding me organically just by her success and her realm online. people started to reach out to me without any effort on my part and ask me if if I could design something for them. I started being able to like look out a whole year.
plan my production calendar for the entire year in January. that was a turning point for me as a business owner because I could project my income and I could project my workload and my production calendar pretty far out.
Della (40:09)
If you're new here, I'm Della from The Beauty of Play. I'm a marine biologist turned homeschool mom who now coaches others to homeschool and teach math. I write math and science guides that you can find in my shop at thebeautyofplay.com forward slash shop. Both the science and math guides are teaching in a hands-on, experiential, whole child way. They are full of activities with art, movement, and labs.
It's a different way to teach both math and science. If you want school to be more than just workbooks, you've come to the right place. You can check out my work on my site, thhebeautyofplay.com, particularly my blog, forward slash blog that can be searched by subject and age, and you can see what's available for purchase at thebeautyofplay.com forward slash shop.
Della (41:07)
this is a big shift. I remember when I released Quality of Numbers, which was the first math guide that I ever wrote, I was just so happy anybody wanted to buy it, right? I wasn't particularly focused on
income You're just so happy anybody wants to purchase what you have. But eventually there is a shift where you can look ahead. I don't bring in as much as you and I don't do as much as you but I do have a kind of idea of what the likely sales will be.
Keri (41:24)
Yeah.
So
do it and do it for the same thing. I could have been
Della (41:41)
But there is this shift where you can
start to look ahead. So can you talk about that a little bit?
Keri (41:47)
Yeah. So when I was leaving Colorado, I remember frantically trying to finish up the second launch that I did with Venison for Dinner. we had a moving truck that was being packed and I was packing mugs at my studio. I was trying to wrap that up. then I had something lined up for when I got to Massachusetts. It was a collaboration with a woman named Bailey Van Tassel, who's
a master gardener. She now designs landscapes for fancy people, we designed a tea mug that had a strainer pocket on the inside so that you could put your tea into the strainer pocket. It was very fancy and so much work to make one piece. and then it had a lid up top. it was a mug with the strainer pocket and the lid. that was lined up for me for when I got to Massachusetts. that
really feels like the first moment where I was like, okay, I'm starting to get work that's backed up instead of searching for the next thing. it's just sitting there waiting for me. working with Venison for dinner, I now had two launches under my belt that sold out very quickly, in a matter of days, less than a week. then with this launch of Bailey, that also sold out
right away. now I'm starting to be this potter that made work people wanted to buy. it wasn't just sitting on the shelves. It was actually going to people right away. that was because I make good work, but also because I'm working with these people who are visionaries and who know their audience and know what their audience want and are expert marketers.
That combination all together, had a lot of success. more and more people started to find me in that same way. And for a little while I took anything that came my way.
then I quickly learned that not everybody has that skill set, not everybody knows their audience so well. Not everyone is a master marketer, and not everybody is a visionary. that's like the combination of when I'm looking to work with a new partner or a new collaborator, it's clear if they have a clear vision of their
ICA, if you really know your people and you are in conversation with your community, actually using social media as a social tool to get to know these people who are wanting your product or wanting your service, that is the situation that puts you into like a successful collaboration with somebody like me who's making a product.
A lot of the products I make are not for me as the artist, it's for somebody else's community. through working with these people, I began to be able to sense that out when we're in discussions about designing a piece. slowly over time, I began to say no to things that didn't feel aligned with me as an artist or as a business person. And I began to say yes.
only to things that were more in alignment. now I'm at a place where I say no to a lot of stuff actually. the things that I'm saying yes to I'm obsessed with because it's like the coolest stuff ever. I feel fortunate because I know not a lot of artists get to do that. So it's really pretty cool. Yeah.
Della (44:39)
Yeah,
I really enjoy your mugs. is venison for dinner, the ones that have the little sayings on the the front. I have several of those from you. And I have your soap holder as well. So let's shift to homeschooling and where this fit in.
Keri (44:44)
Yep. Yep.
Mm.
that was a really fun collaboration. Yeah.
Yeah.
Della (45:00)
So at this
Keri (45:00)
Sure.
Della (45:01)
point, your oldest daughter is around six and your youngest daughter must be two or three and you have Yeah. Right. So you're starting to homeschool first. you've homeschooled from the beginning. How did you come to know that you were gonna homeschool?
Keri (45:07)
She's yeah, three. Yep, and a newborn. Yeah, a baby. Yeah. Yeah.
this goes back a little bit from before I had kids. a lot of creative people or people with a background in art or music find themselves called to teaching, other people what they know. I saw that as a path
And this is absolutely not to belittle anybody who chooses this, but it felt like an easy path for me to go to school and get a degree in education and to be an art teacher. I had a lot of really influential art teachers in high school that I could see myself modeling my career after. when my husband was applying to all of his master's programs, I actually applied.
A master's program myself in arts education and I didn't get in. I was really sad about it. I thought, what I'm gonna do. now we just talked about all the things that I did between now and then. But I thought, I will see how else I can teach. I taught at Montessori school. I was
kind of learning a little bit about public school and thinking that it didn't really seem like the right fit my personal ideas about education as someone who didn't have kids yet and somebody who was a product of public school. I'm just want to see what else is out there. So I tried teaching at a Montessori school and it just
didn't really feel good. it felt like a lot of managing behavior, which is how I imagine also public school is for teachers a lot of the time, managing behaviors and personalities
so for me it didn't feel like a good fit.
when we got to Colorado and I was kind of trying to grasp at straws and see like how in the world can I make money, they have a amazingly
well funded and just beautiful Waldorf school there. I tried subbing at the Waldorf School. at this point, my daughter had been born and she was young I was trying to see how I could incorporate Waldorf ideas into our home and into her play I was becoming more personally invested in the idea of different forms of education.
I taught at this school and again, it almost felt like the same thing over and over again, with a different mask on. I didn't feel a connection to teaching
in that setting, really. I was trying to find what felt right. being in this school, it was beautiful and they had a very sweet community, but it just didn't really feel right for what I wanted. I didn't want to send my kid away for school. I was starting to feel the desire to be a little bit more intentional about
school or education being in my hands in the home. my husband and I both were on that journey to try to find what was gonna work. when she was very young, we found that homeschool was probably going to be the path for us.
Della (48:01)
Both you and your husband are working. Your oldest is getting ready to formally start homeschooling. How did you manage that with both of you working in the home?
Keri (48:11)
I was a part of a mastermind group of amazing women. they all are social media influencers and YouTube people by profession, and they're all homeschool moms and they're all running businesses that are way more successful than mine
one of the best pieces of advice that I ever got as a homeschooling mom of young kids from these women who, had kids all the way up to high school was
To not be too hard on yourself in the early years and that if they could go back and do it again, that they would unschool their young children, meaning that they would allow their kids' interests in early elementary school to be the leader of the education at home. that really stuck with me because with the age of my kids and the laws in my state, were required to submit a letter of intent and
the curriculum that we use, but we do have a lot of freedom in that. I also at this time met someone who's been really influential to me who was the founder of an unschooling cooperative I don't really identify as an unschooler, but I do think that my kids' early childhood education, eight and under,
was heavily ins influenced by unschooling philosophies. a lot of people think that unschooling is just letting them do whatever they want. but for me and the way that I used that philosophy in my house, it was very much letting their interests lead what we were learning in the home. that looked like my daughter learned to read by reading graphic novels. And
At this point, almost nine years old, she's read all of them in the library that's in our town. she learned to do math. Actually, we use your quality of numbers curriculum, and it was a huge milestone for both of us, I think, to see how we could incorporate that into like an unschooling setting where we're using it as a guide, but not like a Bible.
and taking the suggestions and the activities and using it in real life as opposed to just a thing that's on paper that we're reading. so we did a lot of unschooling in the early days and it's really beautiful to look back on because I think that it's been a real foundation for my oldest for a love of learning. for me for a love of creating a home environment that is
full of beauty and respect and goodness. it feels good to be around each other and to learn. so those early years, it was a lot of that vibe at home.
Della (50:43)
We started out as unschoolers as well, and it's a huge misnomer because it sounds like you're doing no school whatsoever, no education, no learning, but it couldn't be further from the truth. the whole philosophy is really child led.
Keri (50:52)
Yeah.
Della (51:00)
so you're doing a lot of strewing, which is leaving materials in different places to gauge interest and then go into the library and checking books out buying games and products or borrowing games and products of what their interest is as well. it also was really wonderful start for our homeschooling. We didn't stay
Keri (51:00)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
November.
Yeah.
Della (51:22)
that way when he entered third, fourth grade, we started doing more formal education.
Keri (51:26)
Yeah.
my oldest this year is in third grade, and she'll be going into fourth grade this coming fall. the amazing thing that makes me be like, yes, these women that were guiding me were so right is that I listened to them
a group of women, there's seven of them and they're all saying the same thing. If that hadn't been my experience, I don't know that I would have just done that on my own. all I know from school is that I'm public schooled and that I had some experience in these two alternative-style classrooms, and then what I've read. I didn't have any first-hand experience. when my daughter got to be going into third grade,
It was like her brain was telling me that she was ready for more challenge. she was asking for it, not by saying, Hey mom, I want to do this, but her body and her language and the way that she was interacting in the world was asking for that. And I think that by being so tuned into what she is needing in this way of unschooling, that it was really easy for me to see.
what she needed when she was ready for a little bit more structure
Della (52:30)
that rhythm that you're setting up with your oldest that'll cascade down through everybody else as you go. logistically, how did you and your husband handle that? Because you're both working. Who's doing the more formal schooling? how is that working?
Keri (52:36)
Yes.
Yeah.
let me start off by saying that my husband is amazing he's a really good dad and he is a really good partner. we are really lucky that his work is non traditional in terms of the schedule. for. He's now the executive director at a non profit music school.
It's a standalone music school it's a small community school that's been around for a really long time. he has a very unconventional schedule. sometimes he'll have to work from like noon to ten PM because he is needing to be there for a recital. Sometimes he randomly will have to work on Saturday because there's, something that needs to be delivered.
Because of the flexibility that he has to have for his work day, it allows some time freedom, which is one of the most important parts of why we're doing any of this is the time freedom in our jobs, to be with our kids and to be together as a family. because of the flexibility that he has to have to fulfill his needs at work, it gives him the flexibility on the other side for me to be able to get my work done.
he also has some flexibility with remote work. we do block scheduling. one of the most important tools in our life, we write squares on a piece of paper for the days of the week and we plan out breakfast and dinner, and we plan out who's gonna go to the gym that day, and we plan out an AM and a PM block. that's what works for us.
Della (54:09)
this is block scheduling for you and your husband, 'cause there's also block scheduling in home schooling, but you're talking about block scheduling for you and your husband.
Keri (54:13)
Yes.
We're ta
We're talking about the logistics of the household. Side note, we also do block scheduling for homeschooling, but that's a different schedule. some time our schedule is just crazy. Every moment is planned out. And I don't mean crazy bad. we have a full life and the way that it works is by we plan out
All those blocks of time throughout the week. So today is Sunday and I'm working all day. Yesterday was Saturday and I worked in the morning and then we had family activities together. on Monday, he worked all day. On Tuesday, I worked in the AM block, he worked in the PM block.
On Wednesday, he was remote and I worked all day. Thursday it was a him day at work, and Friday, we split the day again. it's just little chunks of time here and there. I should say when my third child was born, my business really took off during that time. I experienced a high level of burnout because we were doing an AM block a PM block.
nighttime block and a early morning block and trying to just squeeze in everything that we could. It was too much. my business was also earning the most revenue that it's ever earned in the history of its existence. I had an employee at the time. We were obviously outputting so much ceramics that year. in response to that, when my third child was two,
we were like, this this is losing the plot. we've lost the plot. We're doing this so that we can be together and we're never together. And so we took a complete very sadly let go of my amazing employee who had been with me for over three years, who was so awesome. I'll always be heartbroken that she's not here with me anymore because it was really great.
But it was hard for me managing her workload, which was also related to my own workload. to do my job so that she can do her job. just became too much. when I got pregnant with my fourth child, we cut way back on everything. We were needing to prioritize family time.
needing to remember that we're doing this so that we can have healthy family and not so that I can work myself to the bone trying to make ceramics. And it's a really interesting and hard thing to have done to my business and to our life because I could probably make and sell five times as much as I did in my busiest year.
it's interesting to have a product or to have a business where your products have the potential to be in high demand, but also recognizing that this time in my life where I'm a mother of young children, that's not where my priorities need to be. So yeah.
Della (56:47)
I have that same thought. There are several times throughout
my business that I know I could have hired someone, I could have outsourced the minor things and focused on writing and production, but it would be at the expense of the time that I had for my children. that is just one of the things that I'm just not willing to sacrifice.
Keri (56:55)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. That's good for you, really, because I feel like I see so many people who are like, they're in high school now, I have some time back to myself. I'm speaking from someone who was a teenager but has never had teenagers before. in a way they need you just as much, if not more. it's good that you could remember that while she's still here with you and and not after the fact.
Della (57:09)
I get that.
Yeah, I do have more time than what I used to, but there's that balance and I'm not willing to go over a certain threshold because it would influence that time that I have with her. So I understand that. So tell me how having this last baby influenced your homeschooling.
Keri (57:36)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
So this is my third year of intentionally homeschooling. I say that because we really have been homeschooling forever since my oldest was a baby. But in terms of being a little bit more formal in terms of reporting to the school system and everything like that, this would be our third year. I think one of the biggest changes that we made in terms of
when my third child was born and then when my fourth child was born is we been kind of toying around with year-round schooling versus summers fully off versus what does that look like for us and how does it work. again like we're doing this because it works for the the whole family, for my husband's schedule of work, for my schedule of work and also for the kids. And so something that we do that is
maybe a little bit unconventional but works really well is that we school year round. It looks a little different in the summers, but we choose to do that so that we have a little bit more time freedom during the year. Especially for me being a product based business, I have a just stupidly busy holiday season.
instead of taking three months off during the summer, we take six weeks off in November and early December so that I can take advantage of the holiday season. It's my biggest sales season by far, quarter four. So the first year that we were schooling, we just normal, like nothing changed. We just went right through the summer. it didn't really feel great for me.
Because there's so much fun stuff to do during the summer. I wanted to shift it up. The next year, my at the time, second grader said, Everyone else is off during the summer. We want to try being off during the summer. So we tried that. That also didn't feel great. It was a little bit too much freedom I think my kids really thrive in structure. So this year we're kind of meeting in the middle where we're not doing very much formal
sit-down work. but we're doing things like more project based learning or nature unit studies. my oldest is taking a creative writing fellowship course online with teacher Emily, with Gather Make Art, who's an amazing resource for homeschool families. We love her so much.
a little bit more fun and playful, but also education based learning things that are hopefully gonna be enjoyable for the kids and also a good change of pace during the summers. but that's kind of one of the logistic changes that we made. It's been hard actually. when my third was born, I don't think that I had
as much of a hard time with school and this year between my oldest having a little bit higher demands in terms of learning and what she's needing from me and having unfortunately a very clingy and high needs baby, it's been challenging to be perfectly honest. go ahead.
Della (1:00:35)
Can I say
that that is completely normal and to be expected? And I've actually had a few people contact me when their second in line hit homeschooling and they were like, This feels like so much more work. can you please help me? there's a bell curve of energy.
Keri (1:00:55)
Yeah,
yeah.
Della (1:00:56)
that
goes and when your kids are really young, it doesn't take a huge amount of effort on your part. The largest focus if you're going a along the path of normal child development, because they'll develop those fine motor skills from it different interactions with you. They'll develop the gross motor skills through playing and balancing and climbing trees.
Keri (1:01:17)
Mm-hmm.
Della (1:01:19)
So if you're going through that normal trajectory, the biggest focus is teaching phonics for reading and teaching basic mathematics. but when you hit formal education, it's a different level, like third grade, it's a different level. And then when you have your next in line join in on the homeschooling, it
Keri (1:01:26)
Mm-hmm. Well you take my finger. Mm-hmm. mean?
And if you put it here with two things, I'm not in here.
Della (1:01:44)
increases the amount of time that you have and you did that and then had a baby in addition to that. Like that that's pretty big. Yeah. And it so it is hard.
Keri (1:01:52)
Yes. That's where that's where we are right now. We you'll heal Yeah.
I would say that the main that we all love doing together is learning through living books and discussion of said living books.
So we spend a lot of time doing that. And I can read to them while I'm holding a baby. And we can talk while my third child, who is very high energy and very into getting into things that he shouldn't, is off drawing on the couch, whatever horrible thing is going on. can read at that point. But there's certain things that we're doing in school that you'll hear me say during the week.
Della (1:02:22)
Yeah.
Keri (1:02:29)
This is the time that I have to focus on you and it has to happen now. we need to sit down and do our tablework right now because the baby is asleep and my toddler is building or whatever he's doing. And this is the time that I have. And that's been a shift for us because a lot of the time my oldest has a hard time transitioning from whatever she's engrossed in to what I'm asking her to do.
And so that's been a h a hard shift for us this year is to to be like, put down the pencil. I know you're wanting to do something over here, but I need you to be here with me now to do our tablework because this is the time that
Della (1:02:54)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
it sounds like you already have a rhythm, so that is helpful. And then of course the pre-warning, I'm getting ready to lay your brother down for a nap, get ready for whatever. But you can also do other
Keri (1:03:10)
Okay.
And
see.
Della (1:03:19)
Transitions and then rituals of connection, things that signal, okay, a change is happening now. so there may be something special that you reserve for her to do, something short and sweet for
her to do when you're laying him down to signal for her like this transition is coming. And then when you sit down to do your tablework, you can choose things that
Keri (1:03:35)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then the room.
Della (1:03:45)
are rituals of connection. They are habits that happen every time when you sit down with your child. It can be simple like lighting a candle. It can be singing a song. there are a variety of different things. two things, it can be educational focus, but that's not what you're looking for here. This is connection.
Keri (1:03:45)
And then you can set up a name, reflect on the room, the thing that's something that's going on the two.
the treatment it's my easy keeping it. Yeah.
Della (1:04:08)
this is special.
This is the start of our time together. It's just me and whoever else is there. this is our special time. it needs to be something that a short, super special, they want to do it, that you do at the beginning of the table time. it's something that she looks forward to that she doesn't get to do any other time.
Keri (1:04:13)
And it's be before.
Yeah. Yeah. You know, how do you find that you have to have a finding that?
Della (1:04:31)
then other signals that signal the transition and then she's got this something that she looks forward to. So it's not an you have to interrupt what you really love doing
right now because we're gonna do these things that I want you to do kind of thing. it switches that
Keri (1:04:48)
you done this in your home?
And I'm wondering if so, what are some ones that you do that have worked well?
Della (1:04:54)
yes, we definitely did this there were a couple things. one of the things in order and this is a ritual of connection and a special time is on the flip side of this. This is what I did for my toddler so that I could spend time with my son.
Keri (1:04:58)
So one of the things in the cooking.
Della (1:05:12)
I would save certain toys sensory toys, baskets, and water toys that were only during school time. And when we finished those school time, we're like, I'm sorry, we've got to put those up now. And saving those just for school time meant that it kept it new and exciting and also occupied her for that time so that I could get school done with my son.
Keri (1:05:15)
Mm-hmm.
Della (1:05:36)
for rituals of connection, we did things like we would roll beeswax candles at the beginning of the year and use beeswax modeling clay to put little designs on our candles at the beginning of the year. for our start, each time when we were doing our table time together, she would light the match and we would sing a little song. I forget what the song is, but we would sing a little song.
Keri (1:05:42)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Della (1:06:02)
I usually had snacks. Snacks are always wonderful.
Keri (1:06:04)
Yeah, we do we do we
do tea a lot is kind of one of our connection. Yeah. Yeah. It's so funny a lot of this sounds like what a Waldorf classroom would use. And I s have spent a lot of time learning about that. And with my first two kids, I did a lot of that stuff. And I think that
Della (1:06:08)
geez, that's a great idea. That's a fabulous idea, yeah.
Yeah.
Keri (1:06:26)
in the reality of managing four children's lives and energy that we have lost some of the whimsy in our household. and this is a good reminder to slow down and maybe to invite some of that back in because I remember how my kids loved that stuff.
Della (1:06:29)
Right.
you are homeschooling officially two kids now, right?
Keri (1:06:49)
second will be reporting for the first time in the fall. So technically no, but all three of my older kids, they see me doing focused things with my oldest daughter and they say, What do we get to do for school today? they're excited to do it. So we're not not doing anything with the two middle kids. they're all there with me.
Della (1:07:02)
Right.
Right. So you really
are bringing in the other two. it does get a little harder. I'm gonna be up front with you. But eventually when you, get to the top and then they come back down late middle school, high school, you start outsourcing things and it does get easier for you, but you're climbing that hill right now. So having a baby
Keri (1:07:13)
ha ha.
Yeah.
Della (1:07:28)
in the middle of all that is big. It's big. also it will work out fine.
Keri (1:07:32)
Yeah.
I feel a lot of support from my husband too, because I know a lot of homeschool families the mom does the school or the dad does the school and we really tag team it. I tend to be the person who's researching and planning and putting together what what the kids are going to do or listening to their interests and following that to put something together for them.
But we are both implementing. when I was talking about our schedule, he's home with them during the day. We try to get school anything more structured done during the mornings. And he's implementing at least twice a week, it doesn't all fall on my shoulders, which is good. It's good for
my husband's relationship with the kids and with school. And it's also good for me as someone who's trying to run a business that not all of that's falling on my shoulders.
Della (1:08:13)
Yeah.
how would you define your style of home schooling right now?
Like you were talking about block scheduling earlier.
Keri (1:08:28)
Yeah. we are influenced by Waldorf, the way that they schedule things throughout the years. for example, we're studying math in the way that they present for, second, third grade. we're finishing up the multiplication and division introduction and moving into fractions as
you would in a Waldorf setting. I'm planning a Norse mythology unit for next year. So we do follow bigger units in a way. it's really well done and I love the way that it follows child development and the reasons behind why they introduce things when, especially when it comes to storytelling and the readings that they offer. so we pull from that a little bit
We still do pull from unschooling philosophies a little bit. my daughter writes so much. That's the thing that she would do all the time. she'll write on a piece of computer paper with font half an inch high, fifteen pages if you sit there and let her. So she'll do that and then we'll go and correct punctuation and spelling and
that to me is kind of unschooly. she's leading with her interests and we're doing phonics work and learning rules of English language through what she's already doing in her own free time. I guess this is to say that I don't think that we really fit into a box and that I personally as a mother am inspired by things from Waldorf Education, but I
also maybe more inspired by my kid and their inherent interests. the real truth is that my oldest is the first person that I've educated at home. I think that it would be silly of me to not admit that I'm figuring it out based on her as a person. I can see my second oldest, she's six. She'll be first grade this coming year.
And I can already start to see her blooming into someone that's very different from my oldest. she's really more connected to like gross motor movement and mathematics hope to be somebody who can hear my kids and guide them with what I think, but also hear what they
need and try to work through it with them.
Della (1:10:29)
So logistically, how do you and your husband implement home schooling?
Keri (1:10:34)
right now I'm in the planning phase for next year. I don't know what next year's gonna look like. but this year we purchased a math curriculum for my oldest and we take turns teaching her. I know how to do addition and division. I don't have to research how to do it before I teach her and neither does he, obviously. I don't know what that'll look like when it's a little bit above my head.
this is what works for us right now. we split the week. he'll teach part of it to her, I'll teach another part of it to her. was a little frustrating at first because we teach different. my daughter was, feeling frustrated that Papa wasn't doing it like mama does. we had to work through that and explain to her that.
Hopefully it's of benefit for her to see that everybody's different and that you can learn different from a different person, not just us, but the neighbor and another teacher and somebody who's a professional split the math curriculum. We do reading, writing, and arithmetic daily. I pretty much just for consistency's sake do the all the reading because
I enjoy it. Like I enjoy reading with them. And I'm the one with the patience to go off on a bajillion discussion trails and explain language and stuff. So I mostly do the reading, but sometimes that looks like us doing reading after dinner. don't just sit in school from eight to three, how a public school student might do it.
we always check off reading, writing and arithmetic, but sometimes that doesn't look like it might other places because we're doing it at different times. I've worked in the morning and I'm not the person that's there to read to them, we might not read until later in the day.
Della (1:12:07)
Okay. you both have an idea of what is happening. You take on most of the reading. And for everything else, it's that block schedule. the teaching time is dependent on who is there at the time that they get the most instruction. Yeah.
Keri (1:12:24)
Yes. Yeah, that's that's
that's right.
Della (1:12:26)
that's an interesting and awesome way to do it.
Keri (1:12:30)
I see how what we're doing can cause frustration in our family. My kids for definite sure have the more head energy to sit down and do tablework or even really listen to a story in the beginning of the day or like later in the day. And they wanna be up and moving and and move their body and do handwork and stuff like that.
later on. I do recognize that this is not necessarily ideal. So that's hard for me to admit. If it was a perfect world, we would do it all in the morning because I can see that that's how my kids respond to education best is during that time of day.
again like looking back on the past three years, every year has been different. So I don't know, maybe this year we need to make a change to make it so that it's consistently happening in the morning.
Della (1:13:17)
everybody makes it work the way that works best for each family because everybody's needs are different and a parent's needs definitely need to be considered in that equation as well. I have full faith that you will find your way
Keri (1:13:19)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
Della (1:13:36)
And you
know, in a year or two it'll change anyway, so what is your next coming launch
Keri (1:13:39)
Exactly. Yeah.
So I was getting all these requests for collaborations and I was saying yes to everything. Then I started to be able to be a little bit more picky and say only yes to the things that I want, but it was filling my whole calendar year. I was only doing collaborations.
And I love doing them for many reasons. but you can imagine that I
don't get as much personal artistic expression out of making something for other people. last year I kind of lost a little bit of myself in the making of things for other people. every year I say, I gotta start making stuff for the holidays. I wanna do a holiday collection. I want to do a Mother's Day collection of my own work that is my designs and to my taste as an artist. And that's always what gets put on the back burner.
my husband does have a hand in the business too because he helps me to make my production schedule and he really dialed it in this year. I am done doing production for other people in July. And I am so excited about my holiday collection. We're gonna do a collection that's inspired by one of a kind objects that you'd have in your house.
So things that you buy once and you can like invest in them and have this one heirloom beautiful piece. So for example, a gravy boat or a wall clock or a lamp, things that are for me, like bigger ticket item, money spent on it, but also more time spent on it in terms of what I'm putting into it as well.
So that's going to be really fun. doing a gift box that I did a couple years ago that has a special limited edition mug. I just talked to a coffee roaster yesterday that's gonna make us a custom coffee blend to have like tea-themed box and a coffee-themed box with some like local goodies from other makers. I'm sure that there's so much more that I'm forgetting, but this is all to say that.
Della (1:15:24)
That's so awesome.
Keri (1:15:30)
I am really committing to doing like big, exciting, extravagant holiday collection this year. And I am really, really excited about it because my own personal artistry coming through as a maker and a product designer. So yeah, that'll be Black Friday. Yeah.
Della (1:15:43)
I'm so excited for you, Keri That's awesome.
Keri (1:15:50)
And we left room in my production schedule this year to do a a Mother's Day launch, which was happened a couple months ago, but that was also something that was designs and not for other people. And really fulfilling. It's fulfilling to make things for other people with their designs in mind and have them go out into the world, but it's a different kind of fulfillment to have my own creative vision come to life and go out into the world. So
I hope to do more of that coming forward, both as the business dis decision because I'm not paying other people a collaboration fee. I maintain more of my own revenue when I do my own projects, but also and mostly because it's so satisfying and fulfilling to me as an artist and as a designer to do my own thing, you
Della (1:16:33)
It's a expression of yourself going out into the world. Yeah. I'm excited for you. I can't wait to see what you create. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for spending time with me today. Can you tell the audience where they can find you online?
Keri (1:16:37)
Yes, it is.
Thank you.
Yes.
Yes. so I am mostly present on Instagram for social media and my social media handle is Sift Ceramics and my website is Sift Ceramics dot com. I sell through that platform as well.
Della (1:17:05)
Excellent. Thank you.
Keri (1:17:06)
Yeah, thank you, Della.
Della (1:17:07)
If you've listened to the entire season, thank you so much. I'd love to hear your feedback on the podcast. You can leave that at thebeautyofplay.com under a homeschooling journey, or you can email me at Della at the beautyofplay.com. I'd also love to hear who you would like to hear from next. I can't see who you are, but I am seeing the five-star reviews, so thank you.
Until next season, happy homeschooling.
Episode 7: Meet Heidi
Season 1 · Episode 7
Monday, June 29, 2026 • Duration 01:14:53
Heidi is a mother of three living in the mountains of southern Tasmania, Australia’s southernmost island state. A second-generation homeschooler and former intensive care and emergency nurse, she left nursing to educate her children at home. For over fifteen years, her family has followed a Waldorf-Steiner-inspired approach to home education while establishing a productive permaculture property, growing much of their own food, and caring for the land and animals.
Inspired by Waldorf-Steiner principles, a love of the arts, and a belief in children learning through nature and practical, real-world skills, she continues homeschooling her youngest while writing curriculum. Heidi is the writer and creator behind Twig & Berry Homeschoolcurriculum guides, which grew from lessons she originally wrote for her own children. Alongside this, she works in literacy and numeracy learning support across two independent schools, supporting small groups and assisting with relief teaching from Kindergarten through to Class 10 at her local Waldorf school.
Show Chapters
00:00 Introduction
00:00 Meet Heidi
00:00 Homeschooling in Tasmania
00:00 Heidi's Path to Homeschooling
00:00 Life Before Home Education
00:00 What Is Waldorf Pedagogy?
00:00 Handwork and Developmental Stages
00:00 Homeschool vs. Waldorf School
00:00 Letting Go of Perfectionism
00:18 Favorite Curriculum Blocks
00:18 Transitioning Boys to School
00:18 Homeschooling One Child
00:18 Literacy, Dyslexia, and Learning to Read
00:18 Biggest Challenges and Self-Care
00:18 The Surprises of Homeschooling
00:18 Twig and Berry Curriculum
Table of Contents
Transcript
Heidi (00:00)
homeschooling is like how long is a piece of string? we all do it a little bit differently. It's so individualized. there are families out there that homeschool in a very traditionally Steiner way. There are homeschooling families out there who just take what works for them, leave what doesn't, and move through it like that.
you had these different divergent philosophies that came out of that movement, but really at their heart they all had the same goal, which is child development and how we educate children so that we create, well-rounded, well-educated but fully human humans rather than just pushing, academic
education, which at the time it was very much, that real push for only academics at the expense of other areas of learning and development.
Episode 6: Meet Meg
Season 1 · Episode 6
Monday, June 22, 2026 • Duration 52:43
Meg lives in South Carolina, and has been homeschooling for 12.5 years. Her oldest graduated this year. Her younger two will be in 10th and 5th grade in the fall. A breast cancer diagnosis in 2022, at 37 years old, imploded not only her life, but her family’s as well. Now she shares what that experience was like, and what she’s learned along the way.
01:23 Introduction
02:54 Homeschooling in South Carolina
05:01 The Path to Homeschooling
07:46 Before the Diagnosis
12:39 The Cancer Diagnosis
14:53 Adapting Homeschool During Treatment
20:22 Life After Treatment
23:46 Homeschooling Now
34:08 Advice for Families in Hard Seasons
46:45 Breast Cancer Awareness and Self-Care
Table of Contents
Transcript
Della (01:23)
This week we're meeting Meg. Meg lives in South Carolina and has been homeschooling for about 12 and a half years. Her oldest graduated this year. Her younger two will be in 10th and 5th grade in the fall. A breast cancer diagnosis in 2022 at 37 years old imploded not only her life, but her families as well.
She shares what her experience was like and what she learned along the way.
Della (01:52)
This is a homeschool journey.
Della (02:54)
Hi Megan, welcome. I'm so glad you're here. It's really good to talk to you.
Meg Nichols (02:56)
Hi, Della. Glad to be here.
You too, always.
Della (03:00)
I've been starting the interviews with where you're from and what the requirements are for your state.
Meg Nichols (03:06)
I, live in South Carolina. I've lived here my whole life and there are three options for homeschooling legally here option and they're cleverly named option one, two and three. I feel like the most common one for homeschoolers in our state is option three. And it's the one I know the most about about the other two They're connected with public schools in different ways and there's testing required for some of those. But with option three, you sign up under a homeschool association and there's multiple in the state.
Episode 4: Meet Jasmine
Season 1 · Episode 4
Monday, June 8, 2026 • Duration 01:17:33
Jasmine is a mom of four, homeschooling/ afterschooling her children in Southeast Asia. Shifting her priorities to a more traditional homeschool, Jasmine’s approach is both intentional and thoughtful as she transitions her older two kids from middle to highschool. She has been homeschooling for seven years, originally in Pennsylvania, before her family of six moved to Southeast Asia. Her two youngest attend the local school where the are immersed in a bilingual program of traditional Chinese and English. She is still responsible for teaching her younger children ELA. Her family continues to adjust to their new lives, taking it one day at a time.
Show Chapters
00:00 Opening Highlights
01:36 Meet Jazz
03:12 Pennsylvania's Homeschool Requirements
08:13 How the Pandemic Led to Homeschooling
14:26 Raising a Gifted Child
21:42 The Decision to Move to Taiwan
24:34 Downsizing a Life Into Suitcases
27:27 Adjusting to Life in Taiwan
33:39 Homeschooling in a New Country
38:18 The Case for Traditional Homeschooling
38:53 Beauty of Play Membership
44:13 Teaching an Inclusive History
51:29 Arts, Music & Bringing Yourself to Homeschool
53:01 No Requirements: Homeschooling as a Foreigner
58:23 Homeschooling Teenagers
01:02:12 Creativity, Rest & Following Teen Interests
01:06:46 The Greatest Challenge: Time
01:14:50 What Surprised Me Most
01:16:32 Closing
Hana is deeply passionate about homeschooling and has been cultivating a rich, nurturing learning environment for her children since 2003. Drawing from her own strengths and creativity, she’s built a sustainable and inspiring homeschool journey rooted in a Waldorf-inspired, Islamic approach. Her work emphasizes the importance of lifelong learning—for both parent and child—and she encourages other homeschoolers to rediscover their own passions as a foundation for confident, joyful education.
With three grown sons and a 14-year-old daughter still learning at home, Hana brings years of experience and insight to her teaching. She is currently a teacher-in-training at the Waldorf School of Orange County and a skilled artist, knitter, and maker, sharing her talents to inspire and uplift fellow homeschooling families.
Based in California, Hana documents her homeschooling journey through her website https://pepperandpine.com and across social media platforms, where you can find her under @pepperandpine on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, Threads, and TikTok.
Show Chapters
00:00 Intro
01:10 Meet Hana
04:49 Homeschooling in California: Know Your Options
08:09 Their Path Through the System
16:25 High School Planning & Early Graduation
21:00 Why We Started Homeschooling
24:05 Life Before Homeschooling
27:44 Teaching Through Your Temperament
34:40 Teaching Multiple Ages in Waldorf
46:06 Building a Waldorf Block
58:45 Teaching the Whole Child
01:03:45 History & the Age of Exploration
01:10:53 Greatest Challenge in Homeschooling
01:12:37 Biggest Surprise: Less Is More
01:17:52 Closing
Waldorfish Art Program
Charlotte Mason Narration
Drawing and Painting in Waldorf Schools
Transcript
Episode 2: Meet Tomika
Season 1 · Episode 2
Monday, May 25, 2026 • Duration 01:16:02
Tomika is a homeschool mom of three, currently living in Western New York. As a trained chemist, she brings her curiosity and love for science to her home education practice. In the early years, her homeschool style was Waldorf inspired, making use of art, hands on learning, and living books all while incorporating her family’s multicultural background and desire to know more about the diverse world around them. Now, in the 11th year of homeschooling, she would describe her current style as eclectic and uses various curricula, resources, and the local community to meet the educational needs of her 5th, 8th, and 11th grade children.
Show Chapters
00:00 Preview
02:28 Welcome & New York Homeschool Requirements
08:36 How Tomika Found Her Way to Homeschooling
12:17 From Chemistry to Homeschooling
15:33 Adapting Waldorf for a Multicultural Family
17:42 Military Life & Global Perspective
20:37 Teaching Indigenous & World Cultures
24:16 Homeschooling Evolution: Early Years to Today
29:28 History of the Haudenosaunee
29:31 Current Schedules: High School & Middle School
35:09 Math Curricula Deep Dive
41:32 Math in the Early Years
47:36 Teaching Science: Living Books & Nature Study
57:35 Greatest Challenges & Building Confidence
01:02:09 What Surprised Them Most
01:04:56 Real-World Learning & College Prep
01:12:24 Closing
Tomika (00:00)
African American folk tales, maybe Mexican mythology, also legends from Guam, And then being indigenous to someplace else, it gives me a greater appreciation for people who are indigenous from here.
I really want to know how does this work? How are we learning how to read? I can't just be happy with buying, oh, everybody said to use this curriculum.
Episode 1: Meet Jess
Season 1 · Episode 1
Monday, May 18, 2026 • Duration 01:04:27
Jess is a former interior designer turned homeschool mother. For her thesis, she studied play based, inclusive learning spaces and tries to carry that knowledge forward into the homeschooling of her two daughters and her greater community. She enjoys quilting and other crafts, being in nature, all the books and embracing the whimsy of childhood. She lives in Las Vegas, Nevada with her family.
Show Chapters
00:00 Opening
03:18 Homeschool Requirements for Nevada
06:33 Path to Homeschooling
16:22 Before Children
21:59 Book Club
27:02 Curricula Choices
42:00 Greatest Challenge
46:19 Time in Homeschooling
53:00 Time Management in Homeschooling
55:21 Schedule
57:48 Time Schooling
01:00:59 Homeschool Surprises
Jazz (00:00)
there's always hope. There is always a small moment.
life is always happening somewhere and even if it's just a minute or two, you know, it's still happening. So I do try to prioritize the joy.
Hana (00:15)
I think my greatest, this is like really kind of silly, but I think my greatest challenge in homeschooling is me. I am the greatest challenge.
Della (00:24)
Hello, friend. This is Della from the Beauty of Play hosting a brand new podcast all about homeschooling.
Tomika (00:33)
African American folk tales, maybe Mexican mythology, also legends from Guam, then being indigenous to someplace else, it gives me a greater appreciation for people who are indigenous from here.
Jess (00:50)
Post-its, so many post-its, and I know that some of my friends have taken my post-it system and it has been successful for their children. visualizing a lot of things.
Della (01:05)
I'm interviewing people just like you, homeschoolers from all walks of life,
Hana (01:12)
But let me tell you, when it was right for them to be on their own, my heart was so at ease.
I just felt like it was right. I didn't have to go through that stress and my child didn't have to go through that stress and they do get over it and we do get over it. I just wasn't prepared for
Jazz (01:31)
it's so personal to us
and listening to the kids talk to other people about homeschool. And I always hear that pause because it's like, makes sense to us, but would it make sense to this
Della (01:46)
finding out how they came to homeschool, how they choose curricula, what styles of homeschooling work for their family.
and how they navigate life.
Tomika (01:55)
we're gonna look at the child in front of us in the world around us and try to give the education that they need for who they are.
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kids are where they are, and as long as they are making progress and you can see progress happening, there's learning happening.
there's most of all connection happening. that is the sweet spot. That is the real benefit of home learning in particular,
sometimes it feels so busy and you feel stretched thin but what a beautiful life, what a beautiful life of connection that we get to build with our children.
What a privilege that is. And it's hard work, absolutely. And we make sacrifices to it, a hundred percent. But what a privilege too that we can spend that time with our children.
You're doing enough, you're enough, and your children are enough. And it's okay too if they're not academically inclined. The world is full of people with different skills, different pathways, and it's okay. It's going to be okay.
Della (01:41)
I think.
Della (01:45)
This week we're meeting Heidi. Heidi is a mother of three living in the mountains of southern Tasmania, Australian southernmost island state. A second generation homeschooler and a former intensive care and emergency nurse, she left nursing to educate her children at home. For over fifteen years her family has followed a Waldorf Steiner inspired approach to homeschooling.
While establishing a productive permaculture property, growing much of their own food and caring for the land and animals. inspired by Waldorf Steiner Principles, a love of the arts, and a belief in children learning through nature and practical real world skills, she continues homeschooling her youngest while writing curriculum.
Heidi is the writer and creator behind Twig and Berry Homeschool curriculum guides, which grew from lessons she originally wrote for her own children. Alongside this, she works in literacy and numeracy learning support across two independent schools, supporting small groups and assisting with relief techniques from kindergarten through the class 10 at her local Waldorf School.
Della (03:00)
This is a homeschool journey.
Della (04:01)
Hi, Heidi, welcome. Thank you for joining me today.
Heidi (04:04)
Hi, Della, thank you for having me.
Della (04:06)
Yeah, I think this appointment has been my most challenging to schedule. Jazz is in Taiwan, but she is 12 hours away. So, when it's eight here, it's eight there just in the evening. But you are fourteen hours ahead. And yeah, this one's a little challenging. So as we're recording.
It's eight at night at my house and it's ten, roughly. Yeah.
Heidi (04:30)
Mm-hmm.
Ten thirty here. Yes, yeah,
yeah.
Della (04:35)
so what I've been starting the podcast with is where you're located and what the homeschool requirements are for your location.
Heidi (04:43)
Okay. so I'm in Tasmania, Australia, which is a little island state, at the bottom
in Australia we're made up of states and territories, and every state has its own jurisdiction, it has its own education department. all of the requirements for different states and territories are all different. so I I'm not that all over the whole of the country, but I can talk about Tasmania because that's where we've homeschooled all of our lives. we have
A department within the education department of the state, which is for home education. it has a educational registrar, and they have moderators who report to the registrar for education and
all home education families are required to apply initially. then we're monitored every year and we do a written report which we submit, which is then assessed by the moderators, then we have a moderator come and visit us in our own home and meet our children, speak with our children, and we go through the report.
that we've made together. the report includes both our educational philosophy, how we approach education, and then individual information about each child, what they've achieved over the last year, the progress they've made, how we're meeting their different needs or different challenges if they have them, and then of course what we're going to do within the next year.
What I will say about Tasmania is that they're really all home educating mothers themselves. so they're really pro-home education they are really supportive of home education and offering support to the families, which is not the case in all.
States of Australia. I think some states of Australia, it's a lot more onerous. certainly the people I've talked to have said that sometimes they have to prove a lot more and they're not as supportive. But we're really lucky in Tasmania. We have a huge home educating community and all of the moderators are really offering support, offering help. How can we make this work for you? How can we make this work for your children?
So it's pretty rare to ever come against any issues that they might bring up. But I think, it's there to make sure that educational neglect doesn't happen, and to make sure that families are given the support that they need. we are really lucky in that respect.
Della (07:02)
our school system has a really good relationship with homeschoolers and is generally pretty supportive in that way. they're more hands-off, but I other school systems that are less supportive and it's a little more challenging when you're dealing with that kind of homeschooling. How did you find yourself to homeschooling? What was that path?
Heidi (07:17)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Della (07:26)
Like for your family.
Heidi (07:27)
So I was home educated myself between the grades of seven to ten. I went to school in grade 10. We were living overseas at the time. We were living in Asia and we started home educating there because we were traveling around a lot. and then we came back to Australia and continued because we we really enjoyed it. My mum enjoyed it, us kids enjoyed it. So I am a second-generation homeschooler now.
it was always sort of something in my mind. I I didn't go into home educating thinking this is definitely what I'm going to do. In fact, we actually enrolled our eldest in the local Steiner school here, and he was young in his year, and he was not really coping with the full day, The school were amazing.
At trying to get him to a a place where he he was comfortable. They were really wonderful. I have no criticism at all about how they sort of handled it. And in fact, they suggested, why don't you register as home educating and then come in for whatever he can manage. we did that for a while and then I it felt
choppy and disruptive to our rhythm at home. I had another little boy who was quite young at the time. He was just a toddler. I was, constantly traveling and it was really disruptive. we went, like, why don't we just give home education full-time a go and we can reassess it. at the time the minimum requirement was six months. you could register for home education for six months.
And then you could reapply or go back to school. So we thought let's give it six months, we'll just reassess after that time. however many years it was later, we just we just kept going. It was working for us, it was working for my children, and we we just, went into a really lovely rhythm. We found a community, which I think is really important to be able to find a community.
And yeah, yeah, all these years later I'm still still home educating my youngest. Yeah.
Della (09:18)
roughly how old? What's the range of the children?
Heidi (09:21)
so my eldest is eighteen and my youngest is just ten. Yeah.
Della (09:24)
Nice. So you're
doing that last lap in the rotations. I've been seeing some of that so lovely online to watch them go through each of the blocks. And some of the blocks are such milestones. So Heidi, what did you do before children, before home educating, and how did that influence your home education?
Heidi (09:28)
Yeah Yes.
Yeah, so that's a good question. I've done a few different things. Originally what I was trained is I'm a ICU an emergency nurse. completely out of the field of education, or mostly out of the field, although I did take education roles within that. I would take student nurses and graduate nurses and and educate, be involved in the education there. I was always involved in
education in one way or another because I really enjoy it. prior to that I lived in Ireland with family that I have in Ireland and I home educated their children. that was wonderful I really enjoyed that. that was the first time I had actually had any experience of of actual home education itself.
I worked for many, many years in emergency. I worked in ICU as well, I worked in medical research as well, doing population health studies on the causes of prostate cancer. I had as often nurses do, a lot of varied jobs within the the scope of nursing. But when I had my own children, I went from loving the chaos of the emergency department, loving the
fact that you don't know what's coming in yet. I've always loved communication and working with people. in that sense you're working with people in crisis and that was part of the job that I really loved but when I had my own children I found it really difficult to go in, do a shift in emergency and then come home to these young children who needed me.
emotionally and physically I was spent from dealing with all of the grief and the trauma and all of the stuff that you see every day. And I take my hat off to nurses and doctors who can do that and then be emotionally available to their kids. I really do. And physically available 'cause you're exhausted when you get home from being on your feet for eight, ten, twelve hours. I
I really struggled with that transition. It was only the drive home and then bam, I was with kids who hadn't seen me for that day. I was only working part-time. I wasn't working full time, but I made the decision that no, that's not what I wanted to do. I couldn't. I felt I didn't have those resources within me to keep doing that. then as they reached school age
Like I said, we tried out schooling, we sort of bounced into educate home education and continued from there. In terms of the skills, I think certainly being able to adapt very quickly to be able to organize things on the fly, which is actually a strength in home education, because you see the child and you're able to adapt and
pivot and turn and go down little rabbit holes of really meaningful learning I think there's transferable skills there. But of course just dealing with emotion and all those sorts of things that are crossover skills I I did work in information within nursing.
I had some experience in that as well, which was which was helpful in a way, I suppose, because there is you know, there is some similarities there. Adult learners are different than ch child learners, but yes, there are there are similarities there,
Della (12:52)
so you also have some background in Waldorf pedagogy. Can you talk about that background?
Heidi (13:00)
when I was helping with home education with my family in Ireland, they were interested in the Waldorf method. They were only interested in bringing the parts of Waldorf that worked for them, which is home education in a nutshell, really, isn't so I'd been exposed to it then. I also knew some Steiner home educated.
children that I grew up with and they were always so incredibly creative and musical there was craft in their house and knitting and weaving it was always really inspiring to go to their house because they'd put on a play or they would do all these like really inspiring creative things. as a child myself it was always really inspiring to see. I had a little bit of knowledge of what Steiner education was, but not a great deal.
Until my own children came along and then I started looking at different schools and what educational philosophies I most aligned with. that's when I started doing lots of reading and lots of research and read and read and read. when I deep dive, I deep dive. we ended up putting him in a Steiner school for that short period.
I was involved there, which is actually the school I now work at. I work there just relief work it's a lovely school, beautiful school. I was largely self taught really through reading and through attending different seminars as they came up within the school community and
home educating my own children, spending hours and hours reading and researching, which, I'm sure home educating mothers do.
Della (14:27)
Yeah,
that was similar for me for finding Waldorf. My son was in fifth grade when I found Waldorf was looking for more math curriculum, we bumped into Waldorf geometry, which I just fell head over heels in love. I mean, I love math anyway.
And then to see Waldorf Geometry, I'd never seen anything like it. And I was like, this is so beautiful. Like, why aren't we teaching all of geometry like this? So that's when we dove into it.
Heidi (14:50)
Mm-hmm.
Della (15:02)
what is Waldorf pedagogy in a nutshell?
Heidi (15:05)
Okay, it was started by Rudolf Steiner, who was an Austrian sort of philosopher, mathematician, who lived around the turn of the century. and he was part of the educational reform movement that was happening throughout Europe. I'm not sure where else, but certainly within Europe it was happening. Montessori was one of his
Contemporaries, so they're all around the same time, and they were working on some of the educational philosophers' work. They were sort of springboarding off that, and they went in different ways, but surprisingly similar in many ways too. They were looking at children, child development, and how education can meet the needs of children and how it fits within child development.
So you had these different divergent philosophies that that came out of that movement, but really at their heart they all had the same goal, which is child development and how we educate children so that we create, well-rounded, well-educated but full humans rather than just pushing, say, academic
education, which I think at the time it was very much, real push for only academics at the expense of other areas of learning and development. So he sort of came out of that movement. he was a tutor originally, so he privately tutored families, including a family that had a child with intellectual disability. I think he tutored
That child through the majority of their education. And that experience informed a lot of his understanding of child development and how to meet the needs of individual children, regardless of their ability. How do we meet every individual child where they are and with the capacities that they have?
That was the founding. funny enough, the first Waldorf School was a school for the children of factory workers. owner of the cigarette factory had approached Steiner, it must have been exposed to Steiner's work, asking for a program that would help the children of these workers.
I don't know what the children of the workers were doing before this, presumably they had no other educational outlet he took on that job and that was the first Waldorf school in Stuttgart. from then on he sort of developed his educational philosophies and did lots of lectures, went round Europe lecturing.
teachers of Waldorf schools which started springing up around the place. that's where the beginnings where it originated. pedagogy is probably what drew me to Steiner education. It sees the human as a threefold you'll often hear head, heart, hands, or
Thinking, feeling, willing. he understood the human and the developing child within this framework. and I guess it was a response to education being very thinking or head knowledge without the feeling and the willing, and he saw all of those as equal parts in learning and and development.
Obviously, you have your thinking or your head learning or your academic intellectual learning. The heart represents the feeling life, that is the emotional connection to the learning. And then you have hands,
of knowledge and of experience and it sort of brings it all together. So handwork can seem as not as important, but in fact it's some of the most important work. that's a quick rundown.
Della (18:35)
just
say that handwork has so many advantages to the child on so many different levels. Just a few that I can think of. It's great for fine motor skills when we want to enhance letter writing or hand-eye coordination.
Heidi (18:47)
No.
Della (18:53)
Handwork is great for that. It's great for their self-confidence. There's doing something with their hands and they have a finished product after. It's also was wonderful for us, particularly during our history blocks, because they had a whole lot of reading. We use living history books instead of presentation. And they enhance the listening to whatever material that we were doing because you're
Heidi (19:18)
Yeah.
Della (19:20)
doing something with your hands. There's actually research to back that up,
Heidi (19:25)
Yes, yeah. And you get that
heart connection as well, that emotional connection to the intellectual side of the learning as well. I love handwork too for the will building aspect of it because it's hard sometimes, it's hard learning a new skill. I often find with my own children there's sometimes resistance at first because every new thing is always hard. But it's that gentle encouragement that we do as parents.
Della (19:29)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Heidi (19:50)
push through that difficulty. and that's will building and that's really important. that we get from handwork, which I think is a really underlooked area or reason that handwork is so important.
Della (20:02)
I just want to say for our audience too, we didn't and don't do hand work all year round. I know some families do, but sometimes that can be overwhelming. And we were definitely ebbing and flowing through the year depending on what we were doing, particularly if we were doing like a math block or a science block that was doing hands-on
projects and labs every single day, we weren't doing handwork in addition to that. I used it more for reading.
Heidi (20:35)
yes, yes, yeah,
absolutely. Yes, yeah. It depends on the block what you're doing, for sure. The other thing I'd say about Waldorf pedagogy is that it's really developmental. It's a developmental pedagogy. So it is very much based on the ages of children and what Steiner felt that they were developmentally ready for.
there is groupings of ages. So zero to seven is the first grouping, seven to fourteen, and then fourteen to twenty-one. So he worked in these sort of seven-year cycles of of development. as your own experience as a parent, you'll see that. You'll see the difference between a seven-year-old and a fourteen-year-old. Obviously, they're different, they have different questions.
Della (21:05)
Yeah.
Heidi (21:16)
they contextualize things differently. that's really important to add. So the zero to seven grouping is largely play, song and story based and also using your hands. the beginnings of fine motor skills. you're using your hand to model or to work with yarn or or whatever it is.
You're starting to bring that, but in a very gentle way in that first seven-year cycle. the largest, the most important part of that seven-year cycle is probably the rhythm that you're establishing with children. The rhythm in your home, the daily rhythm that you're gently bringing them through an awareness of time, but not time as in watching the clock time, but rhythm through the day as you're bringing them now.
It's time to do this, and now it's time to do that, and now, we're bringing them through that phase. then seven to fourteen, which is where my youngest is, that is the heart of childhood. That is where they are becoming more self aware, they are becoming more aware of the world around them and of friends and relationships, and they start with that sort of academic learning as
they come into themselves and into the world. as you go through those grades, you're bringing different stories to them based on their point of development and what their internal life is and what their development is. stories are a huge obviously a huge part of Steiner education and the stories are what feed
The children as they move through development. They feed their inner life as they move through the development of childhood. then you go into the next, final seven years of formal education, which is the 14 to up to 20 ones. And that is, you know, when they're starting to critically think, they're starting to question, they see nuance, they see context, they want to wrestle with complexity,
they're more capable of abstract thought and abstract concepts and they want to wrestle with them. they crave difficult conversations you often see that conflict of children and parents as they push back and they're finding their own individual self. and how the education method meets that need in the child, the need to question, the need to actually find their own identity in the world as a
actualized full person who is making choices and decisions for their own lives. Obviously a child is an actualized full person too, but you are assisting them as they grow. I love teens because they challenge you. They challenge you and they push back and you can parented and educated right, they can be
Della (23:49)
I do too.
Heidi (23:57)
wonderfully stimulating, also challenging, but you know, they're wonderful. I love teens because of that mind. You see that real mind developing. So the education meets those needs, the need for wrestling with difficult conversations and difficult topics we don't bring those to the the five year old or the six year old. We don't bring those to the ten year old because they
Della (24:18)
Right.
Heidi (24:21)
They're not in that stage of development, but we do bring those to the fifteen year old who wants to wrestle with why, why do we do this like this or why is society like this? I I think I'd be remiss not to add all of that as as part of the world of pedagogy, that it is very much a developmental pedagogy with child development in mind and stages of child development.
Della (24:42)
the whole child, the whole mind, body, heart, the whole child at the stage of development that they are what is most appropriate for them to meet them where they are.
Heidi (24:44)
Mm.
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yes, absolutely.
Della (24:56)
You have experience working within a Waldorf school and then you also have experiencing homeschooling in a Waldorf style. Can you talk about similarities and differences within the two?
Heidi (25:12)
Yeah. it's a difficult question in some respects because homeschooling is like how long is a piece of string? You know, we all do it a little bit differently. It's so individualized. and there are families out there that homeschool in a very traditionally Steiner way. There are homeschooling families out there who just take what works for them, leave what doesn't, and move through it like that.
it can be quite similar to a Steiner school. It can be really different and in fact very Waldorf inspired, just bringing in aspects that works for them. so that's quite different. Obviously, a Waldorf school follows the Waldorf pedagogy it's quite a different learning environment, you might have 20 or 25 children.
So there's a lot more sort of group dynamic learning that's quite different. and there are differences too by the time you're in grades, you've got specialist teachers coming in to teach language or to teach handwork. by the time you're in high school, you have specialist teachers in many different areas, including art. then the
main teacher, the class teacher will do the main lesson that develops over the course of grade kindergarten to grade ten. I don't I I work in a school that goes to grade ten, so I don't have experience with eleven and twelve, but I imagine it was it's quite different quite similar. so it's quite different. Some things are similar, but home education, the beauty of home education is that it's
flexible and adaptable to your individual children. So that's always going to look different for every family. There are certain similarities usually within Steiner homeschooling you would bring blocks at similar ages, but the blocks might look a little bit different. I certainly started to group my two older boys together at a certain point. They're only 18 months apart so it was very easy
Developmentally they were in a really similar phase. So we did blocks together I think we started that in grade five. Once they're both reading and writing and at a similar sort of level in that sense, we started combining blocks. And that was lovely because it gave us an opportunity to do more group learning scenarios. and I also had my youngest then who was coming through, or she would have been a toddler or a
younger baby at that time. I was splitting my time between children needing and requiring very different things from me. there are similarities, there are differences, but again, how long's a piece of string? Like how do you bring signer education into your home that's gonna always gonna look different for every family.
Della (27:31)
Right.
Is there anything in particular that the Waldorf schools do that you let go of in your own homeschooling?
Heidi (27:44)
yes, there's a few things. Crochet. I don't crochet. I didn't crochet. I know, don't judge me. No. I'm sure you won't. look, there are some things. We didn't do Eurythmie.
Della (27:54)
Can you explain for our audience what eurythmy is?
Heidi (27:57)
Yes, so Erhythmie is a movement system. It's not quite dance, although it probably looks like dance.
Della (28:05)
was there anything else that you let go of?
Heidi (28:07)
like I said, at a certain point I let go of trying to do three main lessons. We did three main lessons up until the end of grade four. then from grade five, I combined my two boys, and as my youngest started to come through, I was doing her individual main lesson. I think I just let go of
the pressure on myself to do it all and be it all, because I realize that in a school you have specialist craft teachers, you have specialist language teachers, you have all these specialist teachers, and I can't replicate that by myself. So what I have done is I have enrolled my kids in an art class or I've enrolled my kids in a craft class.
my daughter does craft with a Steiner teacher who has a homeschooling craft class I have let go trying to put the pressure on myself to do everything and be a mum and have different age children. So that's one thing I let go of. And I let go of the sense of perfection because I think it's very easy to look, especially online, who
on Instagram, it looks so beautiful, it looks so perfect. And you think, why's my day been fraught? Or my kids have been bickering? Or why doesn't it look like that perfect Waldorf school? my child's done a drawing and they've just scrubbed it on the page and it and it's not beautiful. I let go of the perfectionism from from my perspective, but also from my children's perspective as well. Because
That is one thing about posting online is that you bring yourself out for judgment, but you also bring your children's work out for judgment. whilst I haven't had very many comments about that, thankfully, we're in a lovely home educating sort of bubble here, and perhaps that just doesn't go out to the wider community, but
But people forget, I think, that there are real people behind the account and real children behind the account. And I don't want to expose my children to that. for me, letting go of the need to produce something perfect, but remembering that it's not the product that matters, it is actually the process that mattered. So if my child does a form drawing that is not Instagram worthy.
Della (30:11)
Mm-hmm.
Heidi (30:12)
It is
actually the process of that that's important. It's not the pretty picture at the end that's going to look great on Instagram. because that's not their real work. And I think that's reassuring on the other side when you're looking at somebody's work and you sort of look at this picture and you think, right, okay, well, that is actually something similar to what my child's doing. It's not because I think there is that sort of tendency to try and put highlight reels on Instagram and not real life reels on Instagram. And I get it, but
Della (30:38)
And that's our tendency.
We love to share our highlights. we don't want to revel in the misery of a particular moment or day. it's the tendency, if we can just remember that when we look on Instagram or social media, that that's somebody's highlight. I'm laughing internally a little bit, Heidi, because your children's work and your work are absolutely stunning.
Heidi (31:05)
well not all of it is.
Della (31:08)
Well, not all of anybody's is, but it's absolutely beautiful. And your talk about the beautiful picture, whatever that is, in Waldorf is the last step.
there's a lot of work that happens before you get to that particular thing that goes on the page, especially with form drawing and main lesson books. those are the last portion of their.
Heidi (31:30)
Mm.
Della (31:34)
learning that makes it into their notebooks. because it's easy to look at something and think, they just write stories and draw pictures all day. No, there's so much work that happens beh before that.
Heidi (31:46)
Yeah, that's like you say, the
finished product is the the end product. It's not the process. It's not the practicing of the form which went squiggly and wiggly in all the wrong directions every time until over time it was it was mastered and then it's finally ended up in the main lesson book or or whatever it was. we don't usually show the whole process, but there is a whole process to the end.
And sometimes even the end result is wiggly and squiggly. But like I said, that is the learning. We're not we're not learning for a Instagram outcome. We're learning for the process. working in a Steiner school now, seeing 25 kids of the same age, obviously they're all, age cohort-based, and seeing how much variation there is within one grade of children.
Della (32:21)
Right.
Heidi (32:34)
in terms of where they are in literacy or numeracy or even with drawing or with form drawing There's a huge range within the one age group of what those children produce and do. And no one's judging them on that. No one's going, my goodness, look at that. what they're doing is they're looking at the progress over time and saying, well this is where they started in the year. We're now mid year and
This is where they are now. Look at that progress. And that's gonna look different for every child. If you're sort of find maths easy, that's gonna look different for that child. If you are very literacy-minded and love writing stories, well, that's gonna look really for that child. Instagram doesn't show that. but there is so much variation within the one age group, and as long as your child is making progress.
Della (33:17)
Mm-hmm.
Heidi (33:24)
However slow that might be, progress is progress. that can look really different. I think it's really easy to judge ourselves and judge our children's work on what we see other people doing or what the curriculum says we should be doing. if I could reassure parents, there is so much variation within an age cohort. And as long as your child is making progress.
As long as they're connecting with the material, as long as they are enjoying it, and well, they don't always have to enjoy it. Struggle is part of education too. Struggle is part of learning too. It's not all fun and and it's not always going to be enjoyable. But as long as you can see that progress and connection is being made, I think for me they're the two guiding principles for my own children, but also the children I work with in school. Progress and connection.
They're the two things that I would say are most important.
Della (34:16)
That that's a good
key to think of and keep in mind. Progress and connection.
Della (34:25)
Hi friend, it's Della here. You may not know, but I have a lot of information to support you on your homeschooling journey. I have a YouTube channel with lots of videos on homeschooling and how we do math in particular. I have lots of highlights on Instagram of our homeschooling over the years, from our animal study to botany, math highlights, and more. I also have a substack with musings about homeschooling and math.
But my best work is on my site. You can visit my blog by age or by subject. There are things like handcrafting projects, physics study, math units, and more. I have our favorite read alouds, the various curricula that we've used over the year, and all my chalkboard drawings. You can find even more support in my shop. They're mostly math.
Guides, but a handful of science guides as well. You can visit my shop at the beautyofplay.com.
Della (35:26)
So just being a little flippant here, which of your blocks are your favorite? we definitely have favorite blocks. What are your favorite blocks?
Heidi (35:35)
That is such a hard question because it changes every grade that I'm teaching or year that I'm teaching. I don't know. I have a favorite, at least one favorite in every year that I teach. I would say that North Smiths one of my all-time favorites. I really enjoy those. The stories are funny.
Della (35:49)
Okay.
Heidi (35:52)
they're quite fun. I would also say that I love history, so I'm always gonna say all of the history blocks, every single history block. if I had to say one.
Dunno, I can't.
Della (36:02)
That's so
funny. I love all the science blocks. we loved botany. I think we've done botany two or three times now. We love the animal block. we are supposed to be doing something else, but for the first time in all of the time I've ever been educating, my child asked me to teach marine biology. I'm like, are you kidding? because I'm a marine biologist.
Heidi (36:04)
You do you?
Della (36:27)
neither one of my kids has really ever been interested in it. And the funny thing is that I also love math. And both of my kids can do math. They're proficient, all of that, but they're like, mm, whatever. but don't you love this? so I am like parting the waters and ending what we are doing early and
Heidi (36:40)
Yeah, that's quite
Yeah.
Della (36:49)
pushing us back. We're gonna be late, late in air quotes for everything else, but we are going to get a block in for marine biology.
Heidi (36:58)
That's awesome. That's
Della (37:00)
So you were telling me that your oldest two are in school now. what kind of school were they in? What did that transition look like?
Heidi (37:06)
Yeah.
So they decided, for grade ten that they would like to try school. and of course we were always supportive. home education is one of the options, I love it, it's a great option, they've loved it. But I think when they got to that age where they were seeking sort of peer community more and more.
I find certainly in our area, the homeschooling community really dropped off, especially with boys for some reason. There weren't very many boys of their age that was still homeschooling. A lot of had transitioned to school too. We went and toured a lot of different schools and spoke with principals, and we let our eldest choose the school, and he's chosen a school that goes
through 11 and 12. so that he didn't have to change, I don't know how the school system works where you are, but some of our schools will only go to grade 10, and then some of them will go to grade 12, which is the pre-tertiary years for university. so they do all the university entrance subjects in those two years. so
Della (38:06)
that's really
interesting. That's different than the US. All all of our high schools go to twelfth grade. And then university is separate from that. That is really interesting.
Heidi (38:09)
Yeah, I think.
right.
Yes, university
university separate too, but yes, not all schools will go through to grade twelve. in fact a lot of schools go through to grade six and then you will start at a different school, depending on where you are. Some schools will go from pre kinder all the way to year twelve. it's quite variable really.
Della (38:34)
most of ours are separated from kindergarten to fifth. We have middle school sixth, seventh, and eighth, and then high school ninth through twelfth. But all of the schools end in twelfth grade. None of them s stop at tenth grade.
Heidi (38:42)
Right,
Stop there. Yeah, right. Okay. It's
quite common to stop here at ten. and we count high school as grades seven to ten. And then we say college for eleven and twelve. So that's not university. College is eleven and twelve for us. So anyway, he decided that he wanted to go to a school that did 10, 11, 12.
So he went to that one. And then my middle child, he is in year 10 now, so he followed at this the same school, and I only have the one homeschooled now at home, which is such a different experience, just homeschooling one child. it's going really well. It's it's so different. and she's very social, so I have to make sure that we're out of the house, socializing.
Della (39:22)
Mm.
Heidi (39:30)
a lot to meet those needs as well.
Della (39:33)
Which is so
interesting because homeschoolers get asked about social skills a lot. most of the time what people are talking about are things that aren't applicable or useful in a homeschool child's life, like how are they gonna take turns and get in line and it's classroom management things, but the social aspect of it
Della (39:56)
in homeschooling is important and it can be a challenge, but just in a completely different way than what other people are thinking. I also have to make an effort to get out there. I would be happy to stay home every day.
Heidi (40:10)
Yeah, that's true. Yeah, yeah. I'm a homebody.
Della (40:12)
But but we have to get
out there so that she gets social interaction. So how did the transition for the boys go? Was it an easy transition? Were there hiccups?
Heidi (40:19)
Yeah.
No, no, it was really easy transition. Because Tasmania has quite a large home educating population, I think schools are I wouldn't say used to, but that it's certainly not a foreign thing for them to have home educated children coming in at various ages. I'd say grade seven is a big age, where home educated children will transition. But then again, probably ten or eleven and twelve is another sort of
peak time for people to transition. we were by no means the first home educated family. in fact there was another home educated child that we knew from our community that started at the same time. they're always coming in. the teachers are very much aware and actually my
eldest maths teacher was home educated himself and now works as a maths teacher. so they're always very excited to have home educated kids come in. and they're aware of the little nuances that home educated kids bring. Like we didn't do a lot of testing in our program. so that is a skill that they had to learn. We did a little bit but not heaps.
This is life in general, but you learn from your, experiences. And one thing I learned with my second child is to run him through just things like note taking in class. Because we had never really done note taking at speed, and so little skills like that I was able to do for my second that my first didn't get because I didn't think of it. yes, test taking was a skill that they had to learn, like timed tests. We had done some.
tests but they were never like strict time tests like you get in school. when they made the decision to go to school, they gave me about six months to a year's notice, depending on which child. So I was able to actually say, Okay, Let's go through a couple of things, let's do a few more essays than we'd been doing. so I was able to sort of
smooth the transition for them in that sense a little bit. and as far as like they have transitioned beautifully, they're doing really well academically, they're doing really well socially, which is no surprise. I think there's that myth that homeschoolers are are not well socialized, but in my experience, their teachers love them because they sit down and they'll have a conversation with their teacher just as they would with a friend. And
You actually realise when you go into school that's actually not always that common. and they really appreciate that my boys will ask, how was your weekend back at the teacher? because you know, they often get those sort of one word answers from a lot of teens. Whereas, yeah, no problems on the social front.
I remember thinking, gosh, this is where it all hits rubber beats the road. have I done a good enough job? You know? Have I I missed stuff? I had so much anxiety around that.
a lot of fear around that. then I remembered that in a class of 30 children, there are gonna be gaps. There are gonna be gaps of knowledge or experience. There's gonna be kids coming from other schools that haven't done the same thing. There's just going to be a huge variety of where those kids are academically, and it's gonna be okay. so now I have one at home.
I'm able to homeschool with that in mind, it's going to be okay. Because I think we put so much pressure on ourselves and we can sometimes operate with some fear around the fact that home education is all on our shoulders and we don't want to do the wrong thing by our children. We don't want to set them up for situations that they're not equipped for.
Della (43:42)
Mm-hmm.
Heidi (43:53)
And I know myself, not everybody's like this, but I know myself, I put a lot of pressure on myself to to sometimes do what I think is right. But yes, if I could reassure my younger self, it would be it's going to be okay. You're doing enough, you're enough, and your children are enough. And it's okay too if they're not academically inclined. The world is full of people with different skills, different pathways, and it's okay. It's going to be okay.
Della (44:15)
I think.
Is there
anything that you would have done differently now that your boys have been in school?
Heidi (44:25)
I don't think so actually. I look back and I think I hit the right spot. I would probably say the only thing I'd do differently is probably for myself, put less pressure on myself and put less weight on my own shoulders. I'm a shocker for putting the responsibility on me. that didn't translate to my children, but I definitely put the pressure on myself and felt that.
little gnaw of anxiety that, maybe I'm not doing enough, or maybe my children are behind, that I think we all feel. but in terms of actually what we did, I don't think I would change much. I treasure the days where we went outside and just played all day, or we pivoted and read a beautiful read aloud all day. I treasure those days now.
Della (44:53)
Mm-hmm.
Heidi (45:08)
And I think I was lucky that at the time, and I wasn't lucky actually, it was the guidance and the experience of homeschoolers that have gone before me that said the same thing that I'm saying now to people who are coming through the ranks, it will be okay. just because you have a day where it sort of didn't pan out how you had thought, you pivoted and you went on a bushwalk instead. That is also okay.
it is the little steps that you do that that make the progress and make the difference over time. It's very easy to have a blowout day or a blowout week and think, my goodness, this is not working. I'm failing my kids or or whatever you think, my kids are gonna be behind. But actually, kids are where they are, and as long as they are making progress and you can see progress happening, there's learning happening.
there's most of all connection happening. that is the sweet spot. I suppose I would maybe
Encourage my children to finish more projects. We had a little tendency to let the inspiration peter out a little bit. And in terms of wheelbuilding, I see such benefit to pushing through the difficulty to get to the end point to then be able to go. I did it. It was really hard and I went through it, but I did it. The same thing you do when you do a hike or something and there's
Della (46:29)
Mm-hmm.
Heidi (46:29)
Huge hill in front of you you're trudging up the hill and you're like, why did I think this was a good idea? I'm tired, my feet hurt. But you get to the top and you go, Wow, I did it. And then you forget all the difficulty later. a week's time, you forget how hard it was and you forget how the blisters were. And you look back and you think, that was such a great experience. I want to do that again.
Della (46:49)
and
it preps you for the next whatever. Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Heidi (46:52)
yeah, the next challenge, which is slightly harder than the challenge before. Exactly. I think
I'd probably encourage the kids to push through the difficulty more. I always do anyway, but just stick at it because everything's hard until it's easy. Everything takes challenge and stickability until you've got something, then it's easy. which is I think why things like learning instruments is really useful.
because when a child learns an instrument, they can really see their progress over time and all those daily practices that they did that they didn't want to do, but then they're able to do it and they can look back and see, that was actually worthy of my effort in the end.
Della (47:29)
Are you enjoying having your youngest at home? Are you savoring that last child? I know you spend so much time on the older children and the last child you feel guilty that they didn't get so much of you I now am also only homeschooling one and I'm just really savoring that time.
Heidi (47:38)
Yeah.
Yes.
It's yeah, it's lovely, isn't it? I know, I remember what it was like for a lot of mums out there with, young ones underfoot and hungry children and competing demands on your time and your energy it is hard when you're in the trenches. I'm very conscious of that. I remember that. I remember what that was like. And it is it is so lovely just to have the one now.
And to have that time with her 'cause I know that's my last child. it's like that with anything though, I think. I remember when it was my last pregnancy and my last breastfeeding or my last whatever, I was able to savour it in a different way than I did with my boys, which is sort of survival mode for a number of years. So yeah, it's lovely. it is different though. I don't know how you find it. I find that in some ways when there's a group,
Della (48:23)
Mm-hmm,
Heidi (48:37)
you have a bit of a group dynamic to get things done. okay, now we're going to do this or let's gather and we're going to have a conversation it's sometimes easier to herd a group than it is to herd one child. I'll often hear my one child say, just five more minutes on the trampoline or just ten more minutes or I'll be there in a minute.
And you don't have that same group sort of coming together. So that's being different. So I often just pivot and adjust and we'll do times tables on the trampoline or whatever,
Della (49:07)
Right.
there's a big gap between my oldest and my youngest. there was only a a narrow set of years where we were schooling together. And I really savor that time when we're all at the table together.
Heidi (49:12)
Yeah.
Mm. Me too.
Me too. And I'm so glad that I took a lot of photos because it is so lovely to look back. There's one particular photo I have of my boys, they were laying on their stomachs reading books, and their little toddler sister had wiggled herself up in between them on the cushions and was just looking through a book of her own. I took a photo, they didn't know I was taking it. And I've looked back at that so many times.
it was one of those beautiful moments I'll always remember it. because it's easy to forget how special it is to be able to home educate sometimes it feels so busy you feel stretched thin what a what a beautiful life, what a beautiful life of connection that we get to build with our children.
What a privilege that is. And it's hard work, absolutely. And we make sacrifices to it, a hundred percent. But what a privilege too that we can spend that time with our children. as somebody who has older children and looking back, I don't regret a thing. And the connections between our family but our children as well are really precious and they're built.
through the shared experience of of all those years. It is. Yeah. So I try to remember that on my difficult days. 'Cause we all have
Della (50:27)
Yeah, it's a real treasure for sure. I
yes. yes.
Yes. You try to take those connections and soak up all the good parts that carry you through the more challenging aspects of it. So you have done a little bit of work with early literacy, and I want to talk about how your boys learn to read and how you adapt.
Heidi (50:45)
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah.
Della (51:01)
Did that for your girl.
Heidi (51:03)
Yes. Okay, this is a great question. so I'll start at the start and I'll go backwards. right now I work in literacy and numeracy intervention groups, like so small groups or one-on-one with children who need some sort of extra coaching and extra work. I work in two different schools.
one is a just a mainstream school and one is a Steiner school, a Waldorf so that has been wonderful. I really enjoy that. I really, really enjoy working one-on-one with children. It's quite a different dynamic, and I really enjoy that. It's a bit more like home education. You can sort of get alongside someone, really encourage them and work with them where they are. and it's lovely to see the progress.
And the joy and the spark come back into their eyes. Because often these kids think, I'm dumb, there's something wrong with me, I can't do it, I'm just not good at maths, and I hate it. And they really internalize all those feelings. But to actually take them out of that and show them that they're making progress and being that encouraging support person, it's lovely. I really, really enjoy that. But going back in time to my own children, so like
most or almost all homeschooling mums, I learnt on the job, I learnt on the fly. My eldest was really easy. He just picked up reading naturally. He wasn't reading for pleasure until about age ten, but he could read. he was just a natural speller. it was really easy. I taught him with a traditional Steiner approach
My middle child came along and it wasn't sticking. It wasn't easy. And I realized that I needed to pivot at a certain point. And in hindsight, it would have been better for me to start earlier. But I didn't pick it up. Dyslexia wasn't on my radar.
I wasn't working in the school then, so I hadn't had any experience with what that looked like, how that presented, the struggles that a child might have. I pivoted at that point and I realized that he needed explicit phonics instruction and a lot more intensive work to get to the place that my elders just naturally
fell into, I did a bit with him. I didn't not do it, but I didn't have to do it so explicitly. It wasn't as intensive. So with my middle child I pivoted and I ended up buying a mainstream curriculum that was story and image based, but that we used alongside what we were doing in our main lessons. And I tried to integrate it with our main lessons as much as I could.
based on, whatever sound or blend or vowel team we were doing, I tried to integrate that into main lesson. But for him I had it as a separate program alongside. it was a great program. It was wonderful. he got there in the end. it is interesting because Steiner Education does so much work with composition and verbal recall.
very similar to what Charlotte Mason would call narration, no matter how much of that we did, he it just was never easy for him. so I would always have to guide him through it and prompt him through it. it was never something that came easily to him. just side note here: kids that do have dyslexia.
Della (53:50)
Mm-hmm.
Heidi (54:05)
My goodness, they are wonderful kids. The amount of effort that it takes for those children to reach the same level that a child that hasn't struggled like that, they are so resilient and amazing. Like that takes a lot of energy.
Della (54:17)
I agree. Well, and in my experience,
their brain works in a different way and they're just amazing and talented and skilled in a different area.
Heidi (54:24)
Yeah. Yeah.
my middle boy, he is able to envisage things 3D, and he can just think, I'm going to build this. He'll go up to our workshop, come back, have built something without plans. my husband, who has built our own home, is just constantly amazed by wow, did you write a plan for this? he's just like, No, no, just thought about it. he's able to sort of envisage things in a 3D way, put it all together.
And produce something that there is people need plans for need to write it down. yes, dyslexic brains are incredible. They have great skills in different areas. but written language can be a real struggle for them. I realized that probably a little later than I would have liked to otherwise. when my youngest
Started to come through, I started to see the same patterns. so I was able to start that much earlier with her. So with her, I took the knowledge that I had gained from both my middle child but also my work that I've done in school since then.
So at the moment I'm writing one that I'm using for my daughter right now, and it is a lot more integrated within spans, grade two, three, four for those children. Because there is so much variation in where children are with comprehension, with reading.
And with writing and with spelling. within those age groups, you can have a grade four child who is probably more like a grade two child, which what are grades really? We're all making progress, but I suppose if you had to group them together. you may have children anywhere in that sort of spectrum.
Literacy is really interesting like that I think. There's just so much variability within one age group. it's only because schools group them by age that we think, someone's behind. that's just a nonsense word in a way, because they're not actually behind. They are where they are. we can help all those children progress and we can help all of those children move through those. some are gonna take longer, and that's just the way their brains often are. I've started
doing more explicit phonics instruction with my daughter from an earlier age because I recognized the same patterns in her that I had in my middle boy.
Della (56:31)
That's exciting that you're writing
a Waldorf stall guide that incorporates those explicit phonetic aspects of learning to read.
there's a particular technique that's great for dyslexic children. Orton Gillingham?
Heidi (56:47)
yeah.
Yes, killing ham, yeah, yeah.
Della (56:51)
Yeah.
And all about spelling is based on that. Root in languages. Pinwells is based on that. Logic of English is based on that as well. But I don't think there's a Waldorf one.
Heidi (56:56)
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yeah. Yes.
No, I was really surprised. so I've done the OG training and I am writing a OG based program for Waldorf homeschool or school.
probably the the best way to say would be the sequence of OG, when things are introduced and also how they're introduced as well, but framed within Waldorf pedagogy, how we bring that to the child, how we bring that
often through image. At at this age, not everything needs to have its own story. it's not brought through story, but it is brought through image. and multi-sensorial learning, which is very OG based as well, to make those concepts stick. Because English is a funny language, as you know, it's difficult to learn, especially for a non
native speaker of English, somebody who's grown up in a different language, I always take my hat off to them because English is so confusing. It's hard enough when you've grown up speaking English, let alone trying to learn it as a child or an adult. I'm in awe of those people because it's borrowed so many words from different
Della (58:07)
Mm-hmm.
Heidi (58:08)
languages and then kept those spellings also there's difference between British we use British English in Australia and not American English. there's differences in spelling it is a very complicated language and it makes sense that it's hard for some children to pick that up and internalize that. so yes it's working really well. As with everything I write I have usually used these
for the Steiner blocks I've written those for my boys but I'm tweaking them and testing them on my daughter but for this one I'm doing the same I'm writing it and then testing it on her to see how it's working on her before I release it into the wild I always did that with my boys to
a certain extent, but I felt a bit lost at sea with the order that you brought different sounds or blends or teams with my boys so once I did my OG training I, had a really clear idea of a really good structure and a really good flow and
Della (58:52)
Mm-hmm.
Heidi (59:01)
I'm able to adapt that then to what we're doing in main lessons
Della (59:05)
So what has been your biggest challenge in home schooling?
Heidi (59:09)
I suppose that changes on the phase of homeschooling that we've been in. it's such a dynamic thing, homeschooling. it's so different depending on the ages of your children, the capacities of yourself at different times of life. the most challenging part, probably just the self-pressure that I put on myself.
for my children, I suppose the most challenging part is figuring out dyslexia. that was a challenging moment. It wouldn't be the most challenging, but realizing that, yep, there's something that's not sticking quite right here and having to pivot. But that's also one of the great things about homeschooling is that you're constantly learning.
Constantly pivoting, constantly reassessing and assessing and working out what's working, what's sticking, what's not working, and forging that path through all the things. I wouldn't say that was the most challenging, but it was definitely a challenging aspect of it. I would say self-care.
Is a really challenging aspect to avoid burnout. That is challenging for me personally. I tend to put everything into what I do and my family and children and I'm always the last person to fill my own cup, which is silly I know, but I think it's a easy to fall into. Yeah.
Della (1:00:22)
And very common. So in what ways do
you do that self care for yourself?
Heidi (1:00:27)
Now I became really religious about going for my daily walk and it is a part of my rhythm that I stick with because it's just that me time. It is fresh air. as much as I love walking with the kids, we always did a daily walk, usually before we started our structured part of the day, we would always go on a walk.
it was an ambling, dawdling walk looking in puddles and looking for tadpoles and looking at spiderwebs and that was beautiful, but it wasn't a walk for me. so I am quite particular about taking my daily walk and getting out, getting fresh air, I go for an hour and having that time where nobody's asking me questions as
Awful as that sounds. Sometimes I just don't want anybody to ask me any questions. Bless my children. But sometimes it's just not quite so that is probably the best way that I have just refreshed myself. I always come back feeling a lot calmer, a lot happier, a lot more.
Della (1:01:16)
I think it's a universal mother experience. Yes.
Heidi (1:01:31)
Just refreshed, I guess, replenished. because I've been able to have that time by myself with my little dog walking out in the bush and getting some exercise, getting some fresh air, just just taking a bit of me time. that's probably the biggest way that I've been able to do that.
Della (1:01:46)
I definitely have a good 30 minutes to an hour in the morning. I'm not walking. I am having a cup of coffee and a definitely giving don't talk to me yet vibes. but also when the children were little, I would have a large block of time, like all morning or all afternoon.
Heidi (1:01:58)
Yeah.
Della (1:02:07)
four to five hours that my husband was responsible for the kids and they actually left the house and were gone for that block of time so that I would have that huge block of time each week. I would use part of that to plan our home schooling. That's a
Heidi (1:02:15)
Yeah, right.
That's
Yeah,
that's wonderful. I I tend to do that too. usually on a weekend my boys are older now, so they sort of have their own things that they often do anyway. they're big in mountain biking, so they'll often go mountain biking But he'll often take my daughter out. and again, it's just amazing when you're a mum and I don't I wouldn't change a thing, but it's amazing how
replenishing just a quiet house can be when you're at home and there's only you at home. That's actually really magical and you really appreciate it when you're home educating because your house can be full of noisy and I'm sure when I'm old and all the kids have moved out, I'll miss those days of the noisy chaos. But it's actually nice to be able to schedule in that every now and then when I need
Della (1:02:52)
Yeah.
Okay, last question for today, Heidi. What was something about home schooling that surprised you?
Heidi (1:03:13)
I was home schooled myself for some of my education. So I came into it with some understanding of of how it can work. I suppose my biggest surprise would be how different individual children are, even when you're the same parents and the same environment and the same household, they are different. They're such unique.
Different individuals. They learn differently. Their likes are different. Their personality or temperament is different. I don't know why that always surprises me, but it always surprises me how different my boys are they're only 18 months apart, but they are chalk and cheese in terms of temperament. My eldest is very easygoing, very just no fast, nothing's really a bother. He's
Yeah, so different than my middle child. The reason we had them so close together was because we thought, we are acing parenting. This is just easy. Let's go straight away and have another one. And then all its wisdom decided to give us the middle child, which bless him, he is gorgeous, but he is just such a different personality. he is so driven. He is so
stubborn and all of those things are beautiful qualities when they're ironed out and they're gently shaped and molded but it's such a different child and and I remember thinking what happened there like how are they so different in personality but they're individuals they're individual children from a parenting perspective or a homeschooling perspective you do you pivot and you adapt.
Della (1:04:36)
Right.
Heidi (1:04:42)
And you look at the child in front of you and you say, What does this child need? So you're never the same parent for all three of your children or all five or however many children. You're not the same parent. you don't necessarily realize that or acknowledge that, but you're a different parent to each child, and ideally you're meeting that individual child for those things that they need. My eldest, because he's so easygoing, he sometimes needs encouragement.
my middle child, because he's so stubborn and so powerful in those emotions, he sometimes needs to remember other people's opinions or other people's feelings or to slow down and take time with his work. Because the goal here is not getting it done. The goal here is not how fast can I do this thing. And in terms of Steiner education is quite big on temperaments and
temperaments change as children develop and children grow. So you shouldn't ever think of a child as a fixed temperament, because none of us are a fixed temperament. But the temperaments of my children were quite obvious in their early years as they, sort of went through those years. I suppose that's the surprising thing is that just how individual children are, even when parented with the same
family culture that you have. and how it's a beautiful opportunity to allow yourself as a person, as a parent, to grow, because children will needle at different areas of your own personality or your own little quirks They have a wonderful ability to hone in on those little things and allowing yourself to grow as a parent and to,
move out of that reactive space into a more, okay, what is this child, what do they need? What do they truly need? and allowing that sort of growth to take place for both you and your child. I think that is another surprising thing is how much you grow as a person through home education, through parenting in general, but definitely because you're with your kids so much more often,
Della (1:06:35)
Mm-hmm.
Heidi (1:06:35)
you're the person who's there with them in their strong emotions how much you grow as a person through that. and it's not always easy. Growth is never always easy. that is also the beautiful thing about home education, that it's not just for my children, it's also for me. I look back and I think,
how much I've changed over the years and how much I've grown as a person over the years. And I never would have had those opportunities in the same way if I hadn't have home educated and and gone through that. So
Della (1:07:02)
Right.
And also how much you learn over the years. Yeah.
Heidi (1:07:05)
Mm. Yeah,
yeah, absolutely. And it's funny, you're very maths minded. I'm not, I'm language and history minded, but I've always enjoyed maths. having to go back and teach something is actually a real privilege when you teach it because you really realize when you don't understand something. If you're trying to explain it and teach it, it's a different framing and you realize, hmm.
I actually don't understand that. I'm gonna go and educate myself and then I can explain it to you better. and that's a beautiful sort of thing that we have as home educating parents is the opportunity to go back. I remember when I was teaching my eldest long division, I had learnt in a very rote way. I didn't really understand what I was doing. I had learnt it as a rote method, not
actually really taking the time to stop and think what was actually happening in this process. And then when I had to teach it, I had to go back and go, well I'm gonna have to explain how to do this. So I've basically learnt maths again, but I've had so many penny dropping moments where I've gone, okay, that's why we do it that way. Or that's what's actually happening. which I've I love. So so it's Yeah
Della (1:08:12)
I love that too. And can I just say, Heidi,
I know very few adults that really know what's happening in long division.
Heidi (1:08:19)
I know. Well, yeah, I know. Because we learn it as a rote process. We learn it
Della (1:08:22)
Right. As an algorithm and we're just learning the algorithm and not
why we're doing that algorithm, what mathematical concept is happening behind that.
Heidi (1:08:34)
That's
right. I love Jamie York for maths. We've l used making maths meaningful stuff. And I really like how he and I'm sure there's other programs that do this too, but he takes it back to place value and I don't know why I never thought of it like that, but it all of a sudden the penny just drops. I'm like, okay, that's why we do it. That makes sense now. so yes, anyway.
Della (1:08:37)
Me too.
Mm-hmm.
And it's so funny because I did that for history
because I never did well in history in school. I didn't like it, I didn't understand how it was taught, it didn't click. And I have to go back and learn the history to present the history, and I have fallen in love with it. It is so
Heidi (1:09:15)
Yeah. Well I'm the same
with maths. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm the same with maths. I always quite liked maths, but I never loved maths. but yeah, having to go back and learn it again has been has been lovely. Lovely for me, to actually have all those penny dropping moments. Yeah. Hmm.
Della (1:09:32)
Mm-hmm. Me too. Me too.
I know you're working on and have finished a few Waldorf guides. can you talk about what you have available and where it's available?
Heidi (1:09:44)
yes, thank you. over the years I had a lot of people message me and ask, would you send me your lesson plans? at the time, I didn't have any capacity to put them out there in any sort of way. I had three children, really busy. we have a massive homestead, my time is sort of divided between a lot of different things.
I had written all of these blocks for my boys, but often they were in, bulleted point form or things that I could understand, but it would take work for me to put those into something that somebody else could use. so now that my two boys are at school and I've only got the one at home, I've got a little bit more time to start putting all of those notes and those
documents into some order and integrating all of my children's work that they've done over the years as examples
mid-last year, probably. I do apologize to people that have used my things. I started in a really awkward spot. I started in grade three with grade three materials because that is where my child was last year. I had a grade three child. So I started publishing there, the reasoning was
I was using these materials that I had written for my boys, but using them with my daughter. it was just easier as I was doing them to be able to fill them out and pad them out and make them more usable for other people as I was teaching my daughter. I worked a couple of lessons ahead of where we were. I had the information that I'd written for the boys, padded it
written it in a form that other people could use and then tested it on my daughter so she was the guinea pig for the sort of final product that is a good thing to do because you actually realise that sounded really clunky. didn't really come off the way I had thought it would when I was writing it. that's been really nice. So I do plan to go back and do grade two and
grade one. I've got all the material there. It's just a matter of time. It takes a lot of time to write. I always take months and months and months and months for me. team of one here, except for my darling 70 year old mum who does the final proofread. It is a team of one and it takes me months and months
Della (1:11:28)
It takes a lot of time. Yeah. It takes a lot of time.
Mm-hmm.
Heidi (1:11:48)
even though I have the material just to put it in a form that's able for for others to use. And take the photos of us doing things so that there are, photos of the process that we've used. I have most of the grade three blocks out. and I have a couple of other things like circle time songs and
Della (1:11:55)
Mm-hmm.
Heidi (1:12:07)
Finger what are they called? finger plays, They are seasonal based. I have a festival guide out, I have a couple of other things there.
Della (1:12:10)
Finger play.
Heidi (1:12:19)
I have a website and a Etsy shop that you can have a look and I will be updating that as I finish writing and finish editing and publish things.
Della (1:12:29)
And I'll
put links to that on the website in the show notes. But can you tell us what your website is?
Heidi (1:12:36)
Yes, so it's Twig and Berry Homeschool. the reason our our name is Twig and Berry is because we actually have a juniper farm as well, which probably I don't put much on Instagram, but we have a little juniper farm and when we decided to give our homeschool a name, that's what we we came up with all those years ago. but yes, so my website is
Twigandberry dot com and my Etsy
Twig and Berry Designs, but its shop name is Twig and Berry Homeschool.
Della (1:13:02)
are you on any other social media?
Heidi (1:13:04)
I am. I have recently started a Facebook it's just linked to my Instagram so it's a Facebook page but within that there is a Facebook group for people that have my curriculum and that's a place that they can ask me questions. I'm there to answer their questions or help them, support them through using the materials.
Della (1:13:25)
Well, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it, Heidi.
Heidi (1:13:29)
Thank you. It was lovely.
Della (1:13:31)
Thanks for listening. If you have time, I'd love to hear about how you felt about the podcast so far. You can leave a review or you can go to the podcast URL and leave a comment. The beautyofplay dot com forward slash series forward slash A Homeschooling Journey.
You can also email me at dela at the beautyofplay.com. Next week we'll be meeting Carrie from Sift Organics. Carrie talks about her journey of becoming a potter in the middle of starting a family. about the journey through where she started to where she is now and how her family homeschools with both parents working.
You're going to love that episode. I'll see you next week.
and they are your legal backing and you submit forms to them midway through the year and at the end of the year stating that you have done the amount of days of school you've taught. It's 180 days we have to do
you keep a plan book either weekly or monthly for your own records, but we never have to turn any of that in unless it's asked for and I have never been asked in all the years we've done it. then your homeschool association and that's about it. So it's pretty, pretty simple as far as that goes.
Della (03:58)
me see if I can have this right. So you're simply sending in a form that say we hit all core subjects and we schooled 180 days, but that's the basis. There's like portfolio or standardized testing, That's interesting.
Meg Nichols (04:01)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Exactly. And no,
no, no testing, no portfolio. we've only been with two different homeschooling associations in the state. One of them was Carolina homeschooler when we started and for anyone in South Carolina who may listen to this, it's a fantastic resource. Even if you don't use them, she has loads of frequently asked questions on there and she breaks down the options. So it helped me a
And we only switched from them when I had a high school aged student because he was wanting to do college. I wanted an association that would be more helpful with all of that. And that's why we switched to Palmetto Homeschool Association because they do more, help you with transcripts and all that. And Carolina Homeschooler didn't. But anyway, with both of those, the process has been at 90 days.
halfway through the year, you submit a form. And then at the end of the school year, you submit a form.
Della (04:58)
it's nice that the associations help you with different things.
how did you guys find yourself homeschooling what did that path look like
Meg Nichols (05:05)
Well, it started with our oldest. We weren't planning on homeschooling from the beginning. We're both giant nerds and I always wanted to be a teacher. I had some experience with homeschooling myself in seventh and eighth grade. it was something I was relatively familiar with, but wasn't in the plan from the beginning. when he started, typical got sick a lot, but for us it was a little excessive because when he got sick,
It got my husband also very badly sick. My oldest had strep multiple times and then my husband ended up with pneumonia multiple times. They think from the germs that he was bringing home and to the point where my husband was being watched, monitored for lung cancer. We had to wait six months to find out if he had lung cancer because it was so highly unusual that he was getting pneumonia back to back. that was very stressful. There were things happening in the classroom.
that weren't ideal, again, not deal breakers, but not the best things that I wanted or that we would have wanted. then Mike got a job where he worked from home. we were able to have more freedom. if we had wanted to travel, we could travel more and do that, but we were very locked in with the public school schedule. And then with stress that my oldest was under with the way they were doing handwriting.
first thing every day and lack of communication with the teacher. When I would talk with her about it, I would message her about it. I would get either, it's fine or no response, but it wasn't fine because he was breaking down in tears every single morning before school. it wasn't like, I don't want to go to school. was, I'm really struggling with this thing first thing in the morning every day and the teacher's not listening to me. she wasn't giving us any feedback on how to help. not saying you're doing anything wrong, but what can we do to help?
this be easier for him and we weren't getting anywhere with that. So it was a whole combination of things that led us to pull him out in March of kindergarten and we just kind of flew by the seat of our pants from there and it's kept going ever since he graduated this year.
Della (07:00)
One of the things that I wanted to talk about most today is the…
trauma that your family experienced with your breast cancer diagnosis. But I kind of want to show because there are lots of people that ask about different seasons in life, like a newborn baby or pregnancy or a toddler or a death in the family. if you are homeschooling long enough, something is going to happen that you're going to need to shift.
Meg Nichols (07:11)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Della (07:28)
at least to your baseline and maybe outsource a whole lot. And I want to contrast what your homeschooling was like before that. And then what happened, what changes you made, and then what adaptations happened, and then what it looks like now. before your diagnosis, what did homeschooling look like for you?
Meg Nichols (07:51)
I think those were some of my favorite years of my life, honestly. My boys were smaller, and I think those are some of the most fun years to teach. we started out very much I think as a lot of homeschoolers do trying to recreate school at home, and I had a school room set up and I had a calendar on the wall and all these things and
Those slowly went away, but it made room for more hands on things and I had curriculums with lots of moving parts. so often our homeschool days were spent on the floor in our living room with books spread out around us. my oldest is two years and three months older than my middle. we did so much of their school together to the point where
My oldest was a little jealous that he didn't get, because my middle would get ahead, than where he was supposed to be because he was following his big brother. my oldest was like, wait a second, I wasn't at this point at this age. it was a whole thing, but we did so much together, so many read alouds, so many science projects and fun hands on activities. And then my third was born. He was a bit of a surprise.
And my oldest was eight, and my middle was six when my youngest was born. that threw a wrench in things as anyone who homeschools with a baby knows, you've got you're not sleeping at night and that kind of thing. feel like it's a different thing
having a chronic illness or really hard diagnosis is a different kind of mental exhaustion and tiredness than the very legitimate tired and exhaustion that you have from having a newborn. I was still able even with sleepless nights, we were still able to do our school on the floor, I would have my youngest and be feeding him.
keeping him happy and doing other things and we still made it work it still was doable. Yes, things changed as they do, but there wasn't any giant change when they were little and I had a baby and a toddler. It was just timing things shifted like we do more school at nap time, but we could still do our main things if that makes sense.
Della (09:50)
Yes, does make sense. What kind of curricula were you using? What did your schedule look like? How hands-on was your teaching?
Meg Nichols (09:59)
my oldest struggled with handwriting so much. found and researched at the time that cursive could be more helpful for left-handed kids. And I was already like, yes, we're going to do cursive at some point anyway, because I love so we started with the logic of English curriculum from, I think, the end of kindergarten through third grade or something like that we did.
I am distracted very easily I love unit studies and unit studies are so hard for me because I need more structure than they provide. need, okay, this day we are doing this, this day we are doing that. And what was beneficial is that was scripted, but there was lots of fun built into it. Like fun games were built into it and the boys had fun with that. For history, then we were doing story of the world and we had the activity book with the projects.
we did so many they still talk about one of the projects we did with the Nile and it was a lap book with the alligator and like building or making staffs and things and lots of arts and crafts, clay pots, soap carvings, all of that kind of stuff. We did Singapore math.
And that just happened to work for us from the beginning, it happened to work really well. And that transitioned into, was it Beast Academy? I think we did after that. And English, then I started incorporating Brave Rider, Julie Bogart, as they got a little bit bigger and I-
I was like just finding her when my oldest was in first and second grade, then I started incorporating more, getting more like, take a breath, breathe, everything doesn't have to be stressful and structured, you can get a little more loosey goosey and things will still be okay. So it was kind of this, I have to do x, y, and z into more relaxed, which is also I think just what happens to all of us a little bit.
Della (11:38)
I think the parents
need as much de-schooling, if not more de-schooling, than the children do.
Meg Nichols (11:43)
Yes.
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, for sure. in the mornings, they'd wake up, eat breakfast, have like some chill time. I've never been a morning person. I have never been wake up.
before the children and enjoy the sunrise and all the things I wish I could be that person. That is not me. I would wake up delirious with my kids. And we would all just have a slow wake up time in the morning, eat our breakfast, do something we wanted to do. then they were happy I was alert and we would get a big chunk of school done before lunch. then we'd have lunch and after lunch was when we would do like projects, crafts, playtime, all that kind of thing. For a long time, that was how we worked.
Della (12:20)
Okay, and your diagnosis came in what year?
Meg Nichols (12:24)
2022, June 13 2022. my oldest was a rising freshman, who was going to be his ninth grade year. so that was a whole thing. And my middle was sixth grade. And then I believe that's when my youngest was starting kindergarten.
I think it was his kindergarten year. it was a lot of milestone school things happening. And then I was like, wait a second, am I going to be alive? What is happening? So it was a big, huge, didn't know if we were going to keep homeschooling. It was a whole thing.
Della (13:00)
What plans did you start making at that point? And what was your thought process in regards to how you were gonna keep homeschooling?
Meg Nichols (13:10)
school was not an immediate thought after my diagnosis. Initially, I was just like, what's going to happen? What's my process for me after we figured out the plan for me and what was going to be happening to me? My brain could then go, okay, what's going to what are we going to do for my voice? Because our life was it was an upheaval. It was an absolute upheaval in the worst possible way.
I wanted to keep things as normal as I possibly could for them. But on the other hand, I did not want to sacrifice their education. And I knew that I was not going to be able to be at the same level teaching them because my chemo was going to start in August. And that's when school starts. there's all different types of chemo.
different types of cancers, so all different types of chemo. So some people are able to have chemo and keep working or keep doing the things and that's wonderful. But at this point, I had no idea how I was going to be. But I did know I was getting a chemo called the Red Devil at the highest possible dose, dose dense, because I was young and healthy. I could be hit to really knock it out because I was at high risk for recurrence. So I was not optimistic that I was going to be able to continue teaching them.
My husband and I had lots of talks together. we were agonizing over what to do because again, putting them into public school while it seems like, that's just what you need to do is not always an easy option when you have kids who already have so much changing in their life to then dump them into a totally new environment that they are not used to. Even though they would be technically getting education, how much of that would they be retaining because of the stress that they were under?
we talked about it with each other. We talked about it with our kids. I talked about it with home school friends on Instagram. I was like, you guys, input And ultimately my kids did not want to do public school. So that's when we outsourced, we just had to outsource and we did workbooks, which I did not have a high opinion of workbooks before this. was like, we're not gonna do a workbook, you know, but.
needs must and that's what what we did and we have wonderful friends gift us so many things but one thing was Della you know this for a brave writer essay class which is still one of
Della (15:13)
I do.
Meg Nichols (15:17)
my oldest best memory. It's one of his best memories is that Brave Writer class that he did and his essays in that class were just, I saved them all some of his best writing. it was a wonderful gift. it was outside of his comfort zone because he had never had an outside teacher in any way. that really helped him even later with other because he did it then and he was like, I this isn't bad. I like this. And so
when we got to dual enrollment and we also outsourced his history class and he ended up loving that. it was a lot of hard, my husband stepped up immensely. I mean, I cannot, we had the unique situation where he still works from home. I don't know that things would have worked out as well if he was working out of the house. So he stepped up immensely with my sixth grader. He did almost all of his school that year.
with my youngest, I was still able to do school with my youngest for kindergarten, which was really important to me because kindergarten is one of my favorite years. I got again, gifts and art supplies and so many wonderful things to help. we ended up on the days that I didn't feel well, we could still draw together. We could still work on making letters together. He would climb up in bed with me and we had little lap desks that we could do things on. And I could still read to him and he could practice reading with me.
curled up next to me. So there was a lot that I was pleasantly surprised I was still able to do with him. It didn't look exactly how I thought it was going to look, but he learned to read. we did all numbers and all the things it was a little slower than his brothers, but we still did it and it was still really good.
Della (16:46)
What were some of the curricular changes that you did? Obviously, you're working towards more autonomy here, where especially the older boys are doing more independent work, and then you've also outsourced oldest, someone else is keeping up with his progress and critiquing his work. first,
What did you let go of and what were the curricula changes? Because when something like that happens, you definitely have to let go of something.
Meg Nichols (17:16)
Yeah, So I mentioned my great love of BraveWriter, it's read aloud and it's more open ended. it was an open ended curricula that worked with my brain and I was able to really get into the rhythm of it. it was, teacher dependent. It's not really something you can hand off. I was heartbroken to not be able to do that, that year because I just I just couldn't do it.
English being my favorite subject to teach. that's when we brought in more Oak Meadow because Oak Meadow was written to the student. That's what we did for a lot of things. Also for my sixth grader that year, because it was written to him
It was more of either my husband or myself could go through and check things and make sure they were on the right track on a weekly basis with those subjects. And they could kind of take the lead and do what they needed to do and had their checklist. That's one thing I do really like about Oak Meadow is at the beginning of the lessons, they have the little check boxes for the students so they know, okay, I haven't done this. That helped my older boys a lot. If you ask them, it was not their favorite curriculum. Again,
They felt more on their own with it and they went from me being with them for most all of it to suddenly it was more of a throwing them in the deep end than a gradually, okay, you're gonna slowly get into more on your own. But it worked well, it worked well for from what we needed at the time. So yeah, it was a lot of Oak Meadow. I also use that for my youngest, kindergarten.
Della (18:32)
That's a huge transition from having a homeschooling that's more teacher intensive and you're more involved to one that does throw them in the deep end and they have to be more independent and autonomous. So how did the boys handle that transition?
Meg Nichols (18:35)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, there were were tears on both sides for me one of my favorite things in my life has been teaching my children, it has brought me immense joy. I will forever cherish this time. to kind of give some of that teaching away a little bit was really, really hard for me to do.
And then the same side, my boys, struggled. They did not like, change. My oldest, wasn't tears so much. It was more anger and resentment a little bit. Just because a lot of things, it wasn't just the curriculum, obviously. It was that the unfairness of it all. His freshman year of high school, his mom is sick. He's having a whole lot more responsibility. He's helping a lot more with the younger kids. He's being this amazing child, and support.
they would make me smoothies to help keep my energy up and they would bring me coffee. You know, they were, were taking on a lot more and that while they, they're ultimately okay. It was a really hard time and there were lots and lots of, just feelings about all of it. Not all of them were good. So yeah, it wasn't the easiest, but as time went on, they adjusted as kids often do.
Della (20:00)
What does your diagnosis look like now Meg, after treatment?
Meg Nichols (20:01)
Mm-hmm.
Okay, so I currently have no evidence of disease and I hope it stays that way forever. But I will be on treatment. I am on a pill that blocks the estrogen from my body because estrogen does not cause my breast cancer, but once my breast cancer was there, it feeds off the estrogen that is present in my body. that obviously…
comes with a whole host of side effects. It's medical induced menopause and you can have that for other reasons too besides
a breast cancer diagnosis. I still have chemo brain, I swear, and it drives me crazy. And it might be menopause brain plus chemo brain. I don't know, but my brain is not what it used to be my energy is still not what it used to be. I don't think it's ever going to be.
back. For a long time, I kept saying to myself, when I get better, when I finally when my body finally heals, I'll feel like I did again. And I've had to come to accept the fact that I'm pretty sure I'm not ever going to feel as good as I did before cancer just because of naturally aging. And then everything that my body has been through, I don't think it's ever going to get back to that same previous point. it's kind of like dealing with a chronic illness, I have
to listen to my body. have days where I can do a lot of things and I feel relatively good, but I know on those days when I do that, that I'm going to pay for it the next day or the next couple of days. I will not have the energy to do what I want on those days. I'm finally at a place where I'm used to this little roller coaster. What's still frustrating is other people look at you and you look fine.
and they don't understand and they think why can't you do these things? Why aren't you, I'm at the point now that people think what they want to think I know how my life is and what I can do. But I am on the good side. I don't know if there's a good side. I'm on the other side. And yeah, just
Things are looking better.
Della (21:53)
Okay, friends, this is the last week that the Beauty of Play membership subscription will be open for enrollment. It closes on Sunday. You can find the samples pinned to the top of my blog, or you can sign up for my email where I will send the links to the samples to you. Thebeautyofplay.com. I will be opening up again this fall, sometime in October or November, but the prices will increase.
So if you've been interested in the subscription, now is the time. There is a subscription for homeschooling and another for math. You can, of course, do both, which will give you a post per week. The subscription is so packed with good stuff. I write a post a week about different homeschooling topics or math topics. It usually has a video or audio.
And the audio is provided in podcast form so you can listen via your favorite podcast player. I often leave downloadable files that you can take with you.
In addition, I will send you weekly emails checking in with small drops of useful gems like book recommendations about homeschooling or math, resources that I've found, or answer your questions.
I'm also accessible to you. You can reply to any email or voice message me on Instagram. Lastly, all the videos of the podcast, as well as any workshops that I've done, will live in your membership area. It's a really lovely place. I'd love for you to join us. To learn more, check out thebeautyofplay.com and click learn more either under the homeschooling or math. I'll see you inside.
Della (23:47)
your homeschool look like now after your diagnosis you're finished with treatment?
Meg Nichols (23:52)
now when my active treatment finished, it was when my oldest was ready to start doing dual enrollment because I was on active treatment for a while. I was also on a chemo pill essentially for a couple of years. That was brutal. So I still consider that active treatment because that was absolutely killer. So by the time all that was done and I was kind of out of the worst parts of treatment, he was ready for dual enrollment and he was
looking back very well set up for that because of how much we had outsourced. I pulled back even more with actively teaching him, I think his junior year. I only actively taught him English because I was like, you're gonna let me do one more year of English. And we did British literature, and we used some brave writer guides, and we used an Oak Meadow British literature guide,
I was able to kind of make it my own and pull it apart like I like to do. So that was really fun for me. I was glad we got to do that. And then his senior year was all dual enrollment. I wasn't actively teaching anything. Then my middle guy, we were able to do a little bit more hands-on with me again. he still did some Oak Meadow.
He does art of problem solving math with my husband. They've kind of stuck to that together because they love that. yes. really?
Della (25:04)
Can I say how impressed I am with that? Because we started the art
of problem solving for algebra. We started algebra. So I'm teaching and then we're doing algebra and she could do it, but nobody was happy. Like it was a lot of work. It's yeah, it's really meant for mathy families.
Meg Nichols (25:11)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, they love it. My-
Yes, and that would be not me, but that would be my husband and my older two. My youngest does not like Beast Academy and he does not like anything we've done. no, for him, he loves, Kate Snow's math program, he loves that math program.
And he loves yours that you so kindly gifted us with the circles he loves doing that we still pull out activities from that and do it as a review because it's fantastic. But he's a very different learner than my older two were my older two were like, give us all the structure with math that we can have
his freshman year worked so well for my oldest, we thought, okay, we could start doing a little bit of that with my youngest. So we found from another homeschooling mom, a fantastic Spanish class that's online. It's synchronous. So he has a zoom class once a week, and he has loved it thrived with that. And he wants to do it for Spanish to next year. So for him, it's only been English still and
science and math that we do together. my husband does most of the science and math because that's his favorite. He loves it. And I do English and kind of pitch in and help with the science and math with what we needed. But most of my time now is spent with my youngest because he is in fourth grade. he got the short end of the stick a lot. And that's something that I am still very sad about with cancer. Because
he didn't get that same attention that my older two did with it. I'm trying to make up for that now. I'm trying to go back and do some of the things that I remember doing with his brothers that he and I didn't get to do when I was actively in treatment. we're just kind of having fun with that.
Della (27:04)
What kind of curricular are you using with him?
Meg Nichols (27:07)
We are doing,
math with confidence. it has tons of like games built into almost every single lesson. And so he loves that. for history, I have so many different history curriculums that we aren't doing just one thing. because he loves to talk about history. And on any given day, he wants to talk about a different time in history. So I just follow his lead.
if one week he wants to talk all about the Romans, then I just pull, I've got story of the world. I've got history quest. Is it history odyssey? got, I mean, I've come to have a lot and I have like box sets of history books and different things that we pull from. And so we just dive into whatever he wants to talk about that week. And so right now we are still on the Greeks. we school year round with him. I'm schooling year round with him because of time. feel like I lost. So.
doing Greeks right now. We were doing, Aztecs, we were talking about the Aztecs. we just have been jumping around. It's not anything that any history person will recommend doing. Because everybody's like, you either do it in that four year cycle or you do a whole thing at a time. we're just like, no, we're just having fun and just doing whatever we want for history. that's what we've been doing in social studies. in South Carolina, in fourth grade.
that they do South Carolina history. we have a book about South Carolina history that we've been going through together. for English, we've been BraveWriter all the way this year with him for English. We've been doing lots of books and read alouds and discussing it and reviewing it. then I had a moment, even after this long of homeschooling, I had a moment where I was like, wait a second.
What do most fourth graders know at this point? What should most fourth graders be able to do? And I Google it and it said something about the three paragraph essay or something like that. And I was he hasn't done that. He also struggles with writing a lot. My oldest and my youngest had a very, very hard time with handwriting, just the physical motor aspects of handwriting. They really have a hard time. I'm like, we haven't done enough of that. We need to refresh this. then you have that panic moment.
I tell him, we've got to do such and such. he hates it and I hate it. listen, you're going to be fine. I didn't do this with your oldest brother and he's fine. He's got into college just fine. Everything's going to be okay. I need to take a beat and we're all right. Science, again, Mike loves to do science experiments with him. we pull from the vast different science.
curriculums we have at this point. I realize this is not helpful for people who are homeschooling and like wanting to know exact curriculum.
Della (29:20)
You know, I think it is helpful for people
for a variety of different reasons. One, it shows them that you can let go a little bit and it's going to be okay. also it shows that gaps will reveal themselves, which I'm sure you've run into, too. We ran into the oddest, craziest gaps like he was taking a
Meg Nichols (29:41)
you broke it. yes. Gaps will
reveal themselves. Yeah.
Della (29:44)
math class online and it was probability and statistics and it was based on a deck of cards. they're thinking this is a universal experience. And I realized he did not know enough about a deck of cards to adequately answer the questions. And so we had to fill in that gap. Okay, a deck of cards is made of four suits. Each suit has, you know,
Meg Nichols (29:55)
Yeah. huh.
Yeah.
Della (30:07)
All of that kind of thing because he was like I don't understand what they're asking of me
Meg Nichols (30:11)
Yeah.
Yeah. That's yeah. And that's the thing with my oldest, he tested in for his dual enrollment into a calculus, but he had never taken was it trigonometry. And so they started talking about the stuff and he was like, I have no idea what they're doing. he and my husband had to have a quick
jam session, jamming in some basic trigonomic functions and things so that he could get through and he got it. It was okay. We were like, whoops, okay. and I will say about science curriculum, my husband has a biology degree, but he doesn't work in biology and he was gonna get a physics degree, but anyway, he ended up with biology. And his favorite,
Della (30:40)
Right.
Meg Nichols (30:53)
science curriculum to date so far to use if you want a curriculum to use and I think they only have it for sixth grade or but he swears it could be a high school level curriculum is the real science odysseys biology level two when he first looked at that he was this could be a college biology course he absolutely loves it he did it
with my oldest in sixth grade and with my middle guy in sixth grade. he was like, now you know everything you ever need to know about biology. You don't really ever need another biology class after this. They still did it again in high school, but it was like the high school level ones. He was like, this one is so fantastic.
Della (31:28)
Do you know what my favorite is?
So there's a famous ecologist he passed a few years ago, but his name is E.O. Wilson. And he wrote a free high school curricula biology that's available on Apple. It's their Apple books and is the epitome of an Apple book.
Meg Nichols (31:31)
No.
Mm-hmm.
my word.
Della (31:48)
has videos, but also has interactive things where you can move and change things and see how the processes work. is amazing. And then they have a lab. Yes. There are series of six books and each chapter has a lab. And one of the things that I really liked about this lab, you read some curricula and they're like,
Meg Nichols (31:55)
Yeah, that's so cool. I will have to get
Mm-hmm.
Della (32:12)
get this obscure membrane that only you know what I'm saying like where do I find that?
Meg Nichols (32:19)
Yeah, yeah. Yes, that's
very difficult. I know exactly.
Della (32:24)
They have worked really hard to make all of the supplies reasonable. Like you can just pick this up at the pharmacy or you can pick this up at the grocery store or like everything is reasonable, but the labs are really well thought out. That's my favorite biology,
Meg Nichols (32:32)
Good. Okay. That's wonderful.
Okay, because my middle is doing
biology next year and so.
Della (32:47)
I often get asked, what's your favorite science curricula? And I do have some, like, I really enjoy the series Foundations and Scientific Understanding. Those are amazing. It is amazing, but it's highly teacher intensive and you have to do a lot of reading before.
Meg Nichols (32:56)
Yes.
Yes, I have that from you and I love that. Those are really good.
Yes.
Della (33:10)
some studying and then you have to gather up all the materials. It's a little challenging because I am a scientist, we don't really use science curricula like other people
Meg Nichols (33:16)
It is, yeah.
Right.
Yeah, yeah, that's kind
of how it is with Mike. He's like, I can do better than this.
scientific connections through inquiry. they use building foundations of scientific understanding. I'm 99 % sure as they're spine and make it easier for a parent to implement. I did enjoy that. I can't remember if we had level zero or level one.
but I did enjoy that with my youngest,
Della (33:46)
I don't know how far that curricula goes, but the volumes of building foundation, scientific understanding only goes through middle school,
what kind of advice do you have for families that have some kind of tragic event or…
rough season of life. What are some advice that you have for that?
Meg Nichols (34:12)
one of the things that I come back to, and it's a comment I made on one of your posts when I was still in active treatment that still comes up as people liking it years later, I think you pinned the comment. looking back right at that time, your whole life is blown up and you're terrified about everything. But I think especially for homeschooling families, we are families who in general.
we care about learning and it's kind of baked into our life. we are people who love to talk about history. We love to talk about science. I love to talk about like the history of words and why they're this way and what's the origin. And that just comes up in our daily life. I feel like that's a pretty common theme in some way or another for most homeschooling families who choose to do this. So I would say it will be okay.
It's not going to look the way you think it's going to look. You're going to have epically hard days. You are going to miss things. There are things that are going to go poorly. that's going to happen with any way you choose to educate your child. But as long as you care about learning and you care about creating an environment where learning is accessible and fun and just part of life.
then things are gonna go
what you and your family will learn going through a trial is worth more than any curriculum could ever teach. Learning how to have empathy and how to help people when they are at their absolute worst is a life skill that, yeah, it's not fair if you have to learn it really early in life, but it's beneficial for the rest of their lives. they're gonna be okay because you care about them being okay.
And well, that's about it.
Della (35:47)
really good advice. I don't share this often, but you know that in 2018 my husband diagnosed with cancer I feel like in a lot of ways our journey was easier than your journey, but still life-upending
Meg Nichols (35:58)
Mm-hmm.
Della (36:05)
I feel like the same thing. We had to let go of a lot. There was a lot more autonomous stuff. I had to make room for caregiving for my husband. I didn't have a lot of the mental capacity to pay as close attention to the work that was happening. It was my son's eighth grade year, I want to say.
Meg Nichols (36:08)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Right.
Right.
Della (36:29)
And at one point for history, was like, just read the rest of the book. But the thing that I want to say that's very close to what you're saying, two things, is that much of what we're learning is repeated over. It won't be the last exposure to whatever they're experiencing that year.
Meg Nichols (36:33)
Exactly. Yes. Just read it.
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Della (36:52)
And we don't have to go on somebody else's timeline. My son had an extra year of high school before he went to the university. there were several reasons for that, but it worked out just fine.
Meg Nichols (36:56)
right.
Mm.
Della (37:05)
Yeah, it does work out.
Meg Nichols (37:05)
And that's, think,
we get. I think one of my biggest homeschooling surprises is that it worked out. You know, my oldest, it worked. It's like you go through this whole thing and you're like, am I gonna totally screw them up? What's happening? know, are we doing the right thing as parents? I feel like we all are like that. And then it's like, he did it. We did it. Okay, yay for us.
Della (37:11)
Hahaha
It is in hindsight, like I hope that that offers some level of comfort and confidence in other people to hear from people who did make it all the way through high school and their children went on to whatever's next, the trade school, the college, work, whatever's next, and they did well. Right.
Meg Nichols (37:34)
Yes. Yes.
Yeah, right, exactly. There's so many options, exactly. That's all we can hope for
Della (37:49)
your oldest, what choice did he make for after high school?
Meg Nichols (37:54)
knew for a while he wanted to do college and he decided to do biomedical engineering. That's where he's at right now. For now, that's what he's wanting to do is biomedical engineering. It's fascinating to him and he's very excited about it. And he got into three schools and he chose the one that gave him the most scholarships, which I thought was very wise and I was very happy about.
And it also happens to be the closest one to home, which also doesn't make me upset at all.
Della (38:21)
That's excellent. Yes,
I also have been really happy that our son has been so close to home. There are several things that he went through in his first year, including a school shooting that I was just really glad that he was so close to home.
Meg Nichols (38:34)
Yeah.
Yes.
Della (38:39)
What was something that surprised you about your homeschooling journey?
Meg Nichols (38:43)
like I mentioned that we made it for one so far. We've made it with one and we did pretty okay, I think. Other things is that it could be as flexible as it ended up being. And I would get very overwhelmed in the beginning of homeschooling seeing all of.
the things people would share with these very structured days and structured curriculum and lots of co-ops and going here and going there. we were never in a co-op. never been structured a day in my life. I wish that I was. We would have weeks where
I wasn't as on the ball as I should have been. And we got behind in school through not the kids' fault, but through my fault. Like it was me not doing what I needed to be doing because I was overwhelmed with whatever was happening at any given moment. But we always caught up and we always got things done and it's somehow kept working. And we've done really well, I think. it doesn't have to be your
homeschool, our homeschool did not have to be exactly like everyone else's homeschool, just because that may be, you may mostly see super organized, super curated That is not the reality for a lot of people, I found out as we go along. it was okay to be a little less rigid. It was okay to just take a breath and keep going.
I think would probably be the biggest thing because I stressed a long time in the early years about am I doing enough? I should be more rigid. They should have a stricter schedule. They should be X, Y, and Z. And I didn't need to be as stressed or as hard on myself as I
Della (40:15)
from the cancer diagnosis and living through cancer, what was the most challenging aspect of homeschooling for you?
Meg Nichols (40:22)
Mm-hmm.
motivating kids on days that they really don't want to learn and don't want to do school. I think that was hard because I struggle with my own self motivation and keeping like I said keeping things going and so when I was already on a lot of days forcing myself to be on game and do what I need to do and then to have that pushback.
from them some days, which you're gonna have. Kids are not gonna wanna do school every day. That's just not real life. They're not gonna be like, yes, mom, I want to sit down and get all my schoolwork done with no complaints right now. That's just not gonna be your daily occurrence. So that was a really big challenge a lot of times. And I would some days just throw my hands up in the air we would take breaks. I did learn a thing that worked out well is,
When it got to that point where they weren't engaged, they were not focused. I was crazy overwhelmed. Everything stopped. this I think was something that Julie Bogart helped me to realize and implement too, probably. We would just take a breather because there's not any wonderful learning that's going to happen when they're not in the right head space and I'm not in the right head space. We'd take a break and you can start your day over at any time of the day. So we would take a break, half an hour.
couple hours, whatever it meant. Some days we would be doing school in the evenings because that's when everybody was in a good mood and we could get it done. But yeah, that was for a few years there, real difficult. And I think probably middle school age is when it got the hardest, upper elementary into middle school. When things get to be, the curriculum's a little less fun. more, know, let's sit down and do it
And you have more to do, I feel like, as they get older, they've got more. And so it was like the time that I already am not great with managing, right? It was even more like you really, you get even more behind when it's not done well. So that was a struggle and a challenge.
Della (42:16)
That's a really good one. It's makes me think of some coaching things that I say often One is to have a plan B when your day goes bad, because it is so much easier when you have a plan B and that plan B can look like anything from scrapping school, we're done with school today.
Meg Nichols (42:24)
yes.
Yep.
Della (42:35)
which you can't do all the time. I think that's used too frequently. Like, just let it go. You don't have to, like, you can do that occasionally, but you can't do that every day. And it can look like that, or it can look like taking a breather and finding something fun that you both do. I used to keep a list of documentaries.
Meg Nichols (42:35)
Mm-hmm.
No, right. Yes, yes, agree, hard agree. Right. But not every day. No.
Della (42:58)
that were in the theme that we were studying. So if we had a bad day or maybe somebody was mildly sick, or if I was on my cycle, didn't have a lot of energy, then we could pop that in and we would still be learning. And then we would maybe do our daily work in addition to that, but it was a much easier, low key day. It could be bringing snacks.
Meg Nichols (42:59)
yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yes. Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
Della (43:23)
into the homeschooling or choosing to have a field trip. Yes, snacks are always a good idea. That is probably the hidden expense of homeschooling is snacks. You save a lot on clothing. You spend a lot more on food.
Meg Nichols (43:25)
Yes, snacks are always a good idea.
Right.
Food, exactly, so much food.
Della (43:43)
yeah, having a plan B was a big one. And then, also what you were saying, like breaks work wonders for everything in math. I often coach that if you're hitting a subject, maybe you're doing multiplication, you're hitting your head against the wall because they're not understanding long multiplication or perhaps long division break.
Meg Nichols (43:52)
Mm-hmm.
Della (44:06)
You don't have to not do math at all, although we have done that. And I have been surprised because when we come back to it, all of sudden they're understanding better, but you can also just go to a different concept, maybe work on addition or factoring or something that's just to give their mind a break so that their mind
Meg Nichols (44:16)
Yep.
Yes.
Right.
Della (44:28)
can process that concept and you can come back to it. But it also works in the larger homeschooling as well, like break for five minutes, break for a day, know, whatever is needed.
Meg Nichols (44:36)
for sure.
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Definitely.
I wish I had had you tell me that about long division when my oldest was in learning long division and I thought we were never going to get out of it. Never. And now he's like doing this crazy high level math for fun. And I'm just like, do you remember long division? I thought I was going to never survive that. And here he is doing.
Della (45:02)
What grade did you introduce
long division in?
Meg Nichols (45:04)
was it third? it might've been fourth then. It might've been, was thinking third or fourth. Don't trust my memory. It was probably fourth. That's when it's generally brought in.
Della (45:05)
It's usually four. was it third? You did third? Okay.
It's generally
taught in fourth grade. I don't teach it till fifth grade because it's a, it's a hard, there are, what people don't understand is that there are a lot of things that you have to have a solid foundation in to do long division. You have to understand place value very well. You have to understand what division is to be able to do that. And then you also have to understand
Meg Nichols (45:17)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Della (45:40)
multiplying by magnitudes of 10 and understand magnitudes of 10 which was closely related to place value but if you don't have those things locked in
Meg Nichols (45:45)
Yes.
Della (45:51)
It's really hard to understand. And I'm convinced most adults don't really understand what's happening in law and division.
Meg Nichols (45:57)
No, they don't. They don't
because I learned it teaching mine. I was like, that's why it's this way. okay. Now I get it.
Della (46:03)
Exactly. Yeah.
yeah. So.
Meg Nichols (46:06)
Yep,
totally learning as we go over here.
Della (46:08)
Yeah, that's also a wonderful thing to do. It's okay to learn with your children. You don't have to know it all before doing it.
Meg Nichols (46:17)
Yeah, that's for sure.
And I think that's one of the things I like most about or one of the top things for me that I love about it, because I learn stuff at the same time. And it's so fun, like that building foundations of scientific understanding you were talking about. I love those books just for me to like sit and read through. I'm like, I remember when I read the section about eyes and mirrors or something like that. And I hadn't heard of it before. But the way it was explained there, I was like, this just makes so much sense.
reading it this way. love this. yeah, it was it's it's great. Yeah. It's
Della (46:45)
I really do love that, that curricula.
do you have any additional advice for parents?
Meg Nichols (46:53)
Yes, I do. And this is more specifically to moms, but could equally apply to dads or caregivers. You need to not spend so much time taking care of everyone else that you forget to take care of yourself. for me, with my cancer diagnosis, I had not been to yearly OB-GYN appointment for
three or four years. It was after I had had my youngest. with the experience I had, I don't think my cancer would have been caught any sooner anyway, because I had to push for things to be done for mine. But I do wish that I hadn't waited
I didn't have a good relationship with an OB-GYN. So I had to get a new doctor to go get checked and all the things. And it wasn't as good of an experience. I think I could have possibly had better care if I had been an established patient going in with my issues rather than this new patient just getting brushed off saying, you're too young. I'm sure it's nothing. if you have, especially women, do your monthly breast checks. Don't do them out of fear.
Do them out of having agency and being able to take care of something as soon as it pops up because breast cancer survival rates are ridiculously high when it's caught early. don't avoid it because you're scared of finding something. Do it to keep yourself as healthy as possible for yourself and your kids. Because I was 37 years old, no risk factors. No one in my family had any cancer at all whatsoever. And I got diagnosed with stage three breast cancer at 37.
you have to, you have to, you have check yourself, advocate for yourself. Don't think you don't need to worry about this till you're 40 or you don't have family history. 85 to 95 % of breast cancer diagnoses have zero family history. So don't think that that is, in my head, I was like, oh, nobody in my family has cancer. I don't need to worry about this. I wasn't checking regularly, but I needed to be, I needed to know those things. So take care of yourself.
Do your scans, do your things. Any uncomfortable scan, whether it's a colonoscopy, a mammogram, whatever it is, any discomfort you have from that is infinitely better than a drawn out treatment of cancer and taking care of it. It's not fun at all.
Della (48:59)
know you have resources for breast exam. Can you talk about that?
Meg Nichols (49:02)
Yes.
Mm hmm.
Yes. Yeah. There is a free app called Know Your Lemons. I am not affiliated with them in any way whatsoever. You can go on there. They help you know the best time to check your breasts every month based on when your cycle is if you're still having a cycle. They help you keep track it if if something is questionable. They help you navigate it and know what to ask your doctor about when to make an appointment.
They show the 12 signs of breast cancer, because there are 12 of them. It's not just a lump. Mine was dimpling. It's a lot of different things that you need to be aware of. I have fantastic resources for who are diagnosed under 40, thriving beyond breast cancer. And they are doing fantastic things to educate younger and younger women, because so many of us didn't know these things until our diagnosis. And we are smart women.
And we should have known. So they're doing things to try and get into schools and help younger girls know about their bodies and know things to watch for. Again, not out of a place of fear, but a place of empowerment so they know how to best take care of themselves. But for everyday use for women, Know Your Limits is absolutely wonderful app to use. they keep any of your stuff, none of that. it's just really good.
Della (50:12)
Nice. I learned a lot from know your limits from you. Things that I didn't know that could be signs of breast cancer.
Meg Nichols (50:16)
Yeah, yeah.
Yep.
Yeah, and it's a shame that we don't know for so long. Why is this not shouted from the rooftops,
Della (50:26)
Yeah, I was really bothered by the dismissal of you being so young, so we don't need to look for that and the damage that that causes. Yeah.
Meg Nichols (50:33)
Yes. Yep.
Mm hmm. Yeah, because she told
my new OBGYN, she was like, I'm sure it's nothing. You're young, you have no family history. she had all the certificates on her wall for all these awards She was a very highly rated doctor. And that she told me two things that did not matter. Like it does not cancer doesn't care how old you are. And like I said, huge percent of women diagnosed with breast cancer don't have family history. So that is irrelevant to my
she should have sent me for scans. So then six months later, when I went back from the dimpling, it was a five centimeter tumor. So, and in my lymph nodes, and who knows if it had been treated sooner, if it had been in my lymph nodes, it could have been a whole different situation. you have to know, she was the doctor and I was yes, I don't need to worry about this. she said I didn't, so I trusted her. yeah, now, now I know through a hard.
I know better, but that's why I want to tell other women so they know what they need to know
Della (51:34)
Well, thank
Meg Nichols (51:34)
so good.
Della (51:35)
you so much for talking with me today,
Meg. I really enjoy it.
Meg Nichols (51:40)
I did too, it was a blast.
Della (51:42)
Thanks so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed this week's episode. Next week we are talking to Heidi with Twig and Berry Homeschool. Heidi is a Waldorf homeschooler in Tasmania, Australia. We talked to her about her journey with her three children, of which the two oldest are now in school.
In particular, we discuss the difference in her three children and their journey learning to read, Orton Gillingham training, and her new Waldorf Guides. See you next week.
Della (01:20)
This week we're meeting Jazz. Jasmine is a mom of four, homeschooling and afterschooling her children in Southeast Asia. Shifting her priorities to a more traditional homeschool, Jasmine's approach is both intentional and thoughtful as she transitions her older two kids from middle school to high school.
She has been homeschooling for seven years, originally in Pennsylvania before her family of six moved to Southeast Asia. Her two youngest attend the local school where they are immersed in a bilingual program of traditional Chinese and English. She is still responsible for teaching her younger children ELA.
Her family continues to adjust to their new lives, taking it one day at a time.
Della (02:11)
This is a homeschool journey.
Della (03:12)
hello, Jazz, welcome.
Jazz (03:15)
Hello?
Della (03:15)
I'm so glad that
you're here with me.
Jazz (03:18)
I'm so glad to be here.
Della (03:19)
I have started the previous podcast by talking about where people are and their requirements, but you were a little different because you moved your family from the United States to Taiwan. So I want start where you started homeschooling and then move to where you are now and the differences between that. So can you tell me what the requirements in Pennsylvania?
were for you to homeschool.
Jazz (03:48)
Okay, so Pennsylvania was probably one of the more stricter states, just as far as what was required. Before you can homeschool, you have to have an affidavit that you give to the school district. And I would have to get that notarized every single year. I would do it online. then you have to submit your learning objectives. And then you're able to homeschool after that.
at the end of the homeschool year, you have to meet with an evaluator and they basically go through your portfolio and depending on the evaluator, depends on what you need to include in your portfolio. I had one who was kind of in the middle. So she required three samples of each subject just to see progression. And then she would interview the kids just to ask them how they enjoyed homeschool, what was their favorite thing about homeschool.
If they had any adventures they went on. She was very nice. And she told me I always submitted too much stuff. but I felt really good about it because I was really proud of our homeschool and all the things that we were able to accomplish. we do a lot of creative projects, which the public world doesn't see.
So being able to show those creative personal projects really meant something to me. I think she saw the pride in that because she would always comment like, these art projects are so good. I'm like, thank you, thank you so much. But that was as strict as it got. We didn't have anyone contact us or check in for the year.
The school district is allowed to do that. they are allowed to ask that you submit work within 30 days, but our district didn't. I didn't expect them to
do anything like that. Submitting paperwork and at the beginning of the year and then submitting the paperwork after we had our evaluation, for the most part was smooth. I think the district.
didn't really understand like, would you want to stay in homeschool? You know, why not send your kids to school? But I also had a child who was gifted. And so I think it was more of a, this will help our scores rather than, you know, your child would love to be here type of situation. The kids did, my two older kids,
Della (05:59)
Yeah.
Jazz (06:06)
did wind up going to school before we left for Taiwan the year previous. They did wind up going to school part time. My gifted child, she went for her gifted and talented classes and then they both went for band. They didn't really like it. I think the environment was just too chaotic for them. So they wind up leaving that portion.
my daughter still went to her gifted and talented classes and that was like the best. The teacher was amazing. It was amazing to hear how she took skills from home school and used them in that class. before we moved to Taiwan, we had planned to do it all over again. The kids were going to go to school part-time for certain subjects. We were going to try it because they requested. And my daughter was going to do her gifted and talented class. And then over the summer,
My husband was hired for an art teacher position in Taiwan and everything happened very quickly as you know. And then we moved here and it's been very different.
Della (07:09)
Yeah, so when you were in Pennsylvania, how many children were you homeschooling?
Jazz (07:16)
I have four children and I was homeschooling three.
my middle child, my second daughter, she was going to nursery school, so she would go to nursery school for a couple hours each day and she would come home and then we would do just a few lessons, mostly art projects, reading, walking around, going to the community garden.
going to our local library. then older two was a bit more formal.
Della (07:48)
had a baby during this time, older now, but you also had a newborn in the mix of all this and eventually a toddler in the mix of all this.
Jazz (07:52)
Yes.
Yes.
Yes, I had my fourth child. she was a new, fresh toddler. And I remember the trip here thinking I never want to do this again.
Della (08:13)
I can imagine.
Jazz (08:15)
Ha
Della (08:16)
So how did you find yourself homeschooling? What was that path for you in Pennsylvania?
Jazz (08:23)
I
I originally thought about homeschooling for my oldest and he's the only boy. So I was noticing that he just needed a little bit of extra time when it came to homework, when it came to practicing reading. I felt like the one-on-one environment might suit him. So we started the research.
But then, you know, as it goes, you start talking to people about it and then people kind of, because everyone, society tends to have negative ideas about homeschooling because they don't really know about homeschooling, just stuff based off of hearsay. And so we just kind of hung up the idea of homeschooling. It was just kind of like, okay, well, maybe we don't do this and we just try for the extra homework help and.
We'll just do our best with when he comes home. And then the pandemic happened we were one of the states that went on lockdown and everything happened so fast. I think this was everyone because no one knew what was going on. The information would change every single day. And we knew that there was a chance we would go on lockdown.
but there was no real plan in place. It was just kind of like, you'll go on lockdown and things will just close. And that's pretty much what happened. There was word out that we had some cases and there might be a potential lockdown. And then all of a sudden, the day before, they had told the kids, you know, make sure you bring your books bags, it was like, okay.
Kids brought their book bags. And then we got alerts on our phone saying you need to pick your kids up midday. And it was just like, okay. So it was.
Della (10:04)
Wow.
Jazz (10:07)
panic mode set in, it was very chaotic. Thankfully, we lived right down the street from the school. it was a three to five minute walk. I remember grabbing, the two young ones, running over to the school, grabbing the kids and their book bags being heavy. my daughter, she was doing a hybrid program. she was doing a school online.
then she would go to school for her specials. she was actually at school for her special. she came, we already had the laptop because she was doing online school. They came home and it was just like, now what? And my daughter, continued her online school. My son went.
we went to go pick up his Chromebook. And I was just in a shock in a daze because everything happened so fast. then I saw the work that they assigned my son and it was awful. It was online. It was, there was so much reading comprehension. Remind you, he's in second grade. So it was just paragraphs and paragraphs and paragraphs of information.
And then at the end, there's some multiple choice. Then there's this writing component. it was very different from what his school day looked like. His teacher who was phenomenal and I loved working with her was even like, this is, I don't know what this is. This is not what I would teach the kids. He struggled. He cried every single day. My daughter who was in cyber school and doing phenomenal,
we got no information from the principal from the cyber school. She was just doing the work. the teacher was actually the one to alert us, hey, they're gonna be closing down your school district and your daughter has to complete all of these assignments within two weeks. And it was a month worth of assignments that she had to complete in two weeks. So when that happened, they…
shifted her grade based off of her pacing. she had all A's, all of her scores went down to B's. And one was a high C and she was devastated. And anyone who has a gifted child knows like gifted kids can be very sensitive. And they also, some of them can struggle with perfectionism. And so for my daughter to
Della (12:06)
Mmm.
Yes.
Jazz (12:22)
the day before, see her grades and be proud of her work and see her grade. Like she had, in two classes, she had like 105%. And to see that go down to an 80, after you worked so hard for the majority of the year, she was devastated. I told her, listen, we're gonna fill everything, but then we're gonna get to work. And she worked hard. She worked really hard and got all her grades back up.
Was I angry at the school? Absolutely. Never heard from the cyber school principal. Even when we left to move here, It was crazy. while the kids were going through all of this, I spoke to my husband and I said, I think we might need to homeschool. I think this is a sign that we need to homeschool.
I looked into it. Of course, when you type in homeschool on Google, you're going to get all of the main homeschooling companies. You're going to get the top blogs. So I didn't know what secular and non-secular meant. I didn't know that there were different philosophies for homeschooling.
Della (13:25)
I think a lot of people have been thinking of homeschooling before the pandemic and the pandemic was kind of their jumpstart. this is a good time for us to start. Nobody's going to criticize us right now. And then there were a whole group of people that…
I don't want to blame the schools. feel like they were doing the best with what they had available to them. And I feel like they really pivoted quickly for online schooling. But I think a lot of parents just weren't really happy with the online schooling option. And so that also prompted them to homeschool too. And some of those families
Jazz (13:49)
Mm-hmm.
Della (14:09)
went back to school and a lot of those families like found their home. You know, this is what we want to be doing. We really enjoyed homeschooling and they continued even after everything else opened up.
Jazz (14:22)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. And I think that's what happened to us. My kids were also in a Title I School District. the resources were already not there. that was something that I also struggled with And something that I would discuss with the teachers, like…
Why don't these kids have everything that they need? And it's not the teacher's fault. And I would always tell the teachers, like, it has nothing to do with
I even with just trying to get my daughter signed up for Gifted and Talented, because with her, she went to kindergarten and it was just too easy. She came home, she hated it.
She cried and I said, okay, I think we might need to move you up. I spoke to the school about it and they gave me a hard time. They said, kids her age don't test for the gifted and talented program. We don't test kindergartners. And I was just like, okay, well, you're gonna test mine. I went back and forth with the school district they kept saying like, well, some kids are bright. So how do you know?
I was just like, know my kid and if she's bright, that's great. we'll do what we need to do when it's decided, but it's not been decided. we're going to test her. they just kept trying to put it off and tell me little kids can be smart. Some kids just come in knowing more, based off the parent. I understand that. I do. I know what you're saying, but we're still going to test her. finally they tested her with
essentially the district and the principal of the kindergarten center not believing me. There was a lot of doubt, but she was tested. I came in for a meeting and they were well, your child's gifted. I was wow, imagine that.
Della (15:53)
So let's talk about that a little bit. let's talk about what it is like to homeschool a gifted child. Because I think a lot of people have a misconception and think they're just across the board, bright, get things easier, but there's definitely a flip side and there's
advantages and challenges to homeschooling a gifted child. Can you talk about that?
Jazz (16:21)
absolutely. after she was tested, I remember we had this meeting with her teacher, the principal. then the gifted teacher and my husband. they were talking about what they could do for her in kindergarten. we can give her extra books. We can.
Give her extra worksheets. I sat there and I smiled and I listened, processing the information because I'm someone who I have to think about stuff first. I don't like to react because, sometimes you make bad decisions when you are heightened with emotion I sat there. The gifted and talented teacher sat there and she smiled. She looked at me and I was just like, okay, yep, I understand what you're saying. Yep, yep, yep.
Meeting ended, the gifted and talented teacher said, hey, take a walk with me. Took a walk with her and she said, is that what you want to do? And I said, absolutely not. Can we move her?
Della (17:10)
Right.
Jazz (17:11)
I was can she go to first grade? she said, absolutely. She was your child's gifted. We can do whatever we want. I felt so empowered. I felt like finally someone is validating my feelings. she's amazing. This woman was amazing. Amazing during our homeschool journey. I mean, I just absolutely adore this woman.
And she, the first thing she said to me is, I'm going to let you know that gifted kids, they don't all fit in a box they're not all the same. And we are going to do what's best for your daughter. At the end of the day, it's about her and how she learns. I really loved that. I loved that. It wasn't okay, here's what we're going to do. Bam, bam, bam. was, nope, we're going to figure it out and we're going to work together.
to do that so we are both supporting her. I love a good supportive teacher. Love them. And I was just like, okay, all right, let's do it.
Della (18:04)
Mm-hmm.
about
gifted children in my experience they have something they excel in and then they have different things that are challenging to them.
Jazz (18:17)
Yes,
absolutely, absolutely. So with my daughter, she processes information very quickly. And that's across the board. You can give her anything and something that would take a child maybe a few days to learn the concept. She can learn probably within 10 to 15 minutes. Even though she processes information quickly, there is also the downside of
Sometimes it's too quick and something tells her that whatever she's processed is 100 % correct. when she would do her work, sometimes if she got something wrong, she would struggle with it because it's like, no, I learned this, it's correct. And it's just like, no, it's not correct. And then there would be a shutdown and it was just like, okay, let's take a deep breath, let's take a break, we'll come back to it.
She's also ELA gifted. And I think another misconception is that gift of kids are gifted in all subjects. And that's just not the case. She has a few subjects she just does not like. She does not like math. She'll do it, but she doesn't like math and simple things in math she struggles with, like place values. It took us a really long time for her to understand place values, which you go like, what?
It's so simple, but that's just how her brain worked. Which was, surprising for us too, because we didn't know what it meant to have a gifted child. I had some idea from school. My husband was in the gifted program, but it was very different. I was in the honors program when I got to high school, and that was different. So we weren't really sure how to fully help her.
And that's why it was so important having that relationship with the gifted and talented teacher because she understood she understood where my daughter was coming from. It's going to be a process and you're going to learn.
Della (20:02)
Mm-hmm.
We,
We all
learn No child is on par sixth grade for everything in every subject, but when you have a gifted there's more difference between the subjects, I think, which can make it a little more challenging because you may be doing ELA.
Jazz (20:20)
Mm-hmm
Della (20:25)
in high school level and then you're doing math normal fifth grade level. In addition to that, especially if you're gifted an ELA, you're looking at things where they can read and process and understand at a certain grade level, but the material is not age appropriate.
Jazz (20:46)
Yes, and we've run into that a few times, especially in the beginning
because she advanced to first grade her teacher was great. I loved her first grade teacher. Then we moved to second grade and my husband and I had made the decision to put her in cyber school because then she had more autonomy over what she was learning because she was
processing information so quickly. So it was just like this is a great way for her to if she wants to move ahead, she can move ahead. If she needs more time in a subject, she has more time. She meets with the online teacher once a month, they go over stuff and then she's going to her gifted and talented classes.
Della (21:26)
Okay. So your husband got a job in Taiwan and you guys uprooted and moved all the way across.
Jazz (21:28)
Thank
Della (21:36)
to literally the other side of the world. Tell me about that move.
Jazz (21:42)
it was fast. We started the process. decided, I remember June 3rd, talking about it. Homeschool IG connected us to someone who lived here, who became a good friend. I just remember I was working at like five o'clock in the morning and I stood there and I was like, you know what?
I think it's time we move. I remember messaging my husband, how do you feel about Taiwan? Because it was on our list. had a whole list of places, countries we were considering moving to. I just remember I had this thought, well, what about Taiwan? I know someone who's lived in Taiwan. he said, OK, yeah, let's look into it.
I came home and I messaged that person and she lived in Australia I messaged her and I was hey, what can you tell me about Taiwan? in the course of a few hours, she sent me so much information. She sent me voice recordings, she sent me links, she sent me all of this stuff.
I gave it to my husband. he said, I'll look at it. I said, no, no, no, I need you to look at it when you have the time. that night he listened to the voice messages. He looked at all the links and he was I think we can do this.
I think we can do this too. we talked a little bit more about it she just kept sending us information. at the end of those two weeks after doing the research, after talking about it, going back and forth, we were like, okay, let's do this. So we started the process, getting paperwork, moving to another country. A lot of people think you just need a passport. You don't, you have to authenticate everything.
You have to authenticate your children's birth certificates. You have to authenticate your unabridged marriage license. We also needed to get passports. It was a
he submitted his applications for cram school, which are after school programs, essentially. he submitted his application with teaching agencies. immediately these places started reaching out, which shocked both of us. he did a total of three interviews.
Two with the teaching company one with a cram school company. And because of the time, the one agency was okay, we're gonna keep your application on file, which is what we expected because typically they hire people between April and May. the chances of him getting a job were very slim.
then the cram school company, they didn't want to hire him because he had a family. they asked them during the interview, are you coming by yourself or are you trying to bring your family? said, well, I want to bring my family. I think that was kind of like a, that's a lot of more trouble than it's worth. then the last agency said, okay, we're going to go forward with you. we actually have a position.
we found out that night they loved he was hired and it was just like this is happening and by the end of September we were on a plane to Taiwan.
Della (24:34)
and you had to downsize tremendously.
Jazz (24:38)
Everything. We gave up everything.
Della (24:42)
how many suitcases.
Jazz (24:44)
We were allowed two suitcases. They had to be 50 pounds. You could have a personal bag and a carry-on. we are a family of six and that was 24 pieces of luggage.
All of our entire life had to be packed in these two places.
Della (24:59)
Well, I have to say,
I think the hardest part would be choosing which books you're going to take and getting rid of most of your books.
Jazz (25:09)
It, yes. I had over 12 bookcases and I remember going through all the books and saying, okay, what could I repurchase? you saw it, I sold a bunch of books I was really grateful to the IG homeschool community because I wasn't sure if I was going to be able to sell anything.
it really helped us out a lot to downsize. all the popular books that I knew I could find anywhere online, those were the first to go. And then my history collection, which I had worked years looking for books and building this collection, I had to figure out who could I trust with it to hold onto it so we could pay for it to be shipped over here.
we didn't really care about things. We knew we were starting our lives over. let's pack the clothes we think we need.
Let's see where all that fits. We vacuum sealed all of our clothes it's hot. we don't really need to carry winter clothes. I wish we had carried more hoodies to be honest, because the winter here is like a cold humid and it's only 50 degrees, it's bone chilling cold.
we filled some up with books. It would be like half books, half the wooden boards from Jack and Link, which was really funny.
because my kids were like, is this really Do you really need this?
Della (26:25)
And as a homeschool mom, you're like,
yes, I cannot leave without my Jack and Link toy.
Jazz (26:31)
Yeah. I was just like, I have invested money and they are coming with us. what was crazy was every suitcase had books. So would be, we pack half books, half clothes, something sentimental. And this was every single suitcase. And then it was just like a couple Jack and Link products. And then everyone's carry on had Jack and Link products because I was just like, what if our suitcases get lost or what if they don't arrive or make it?
I can't, I'm not losing this stuff, so I packed it in our carry-on.
Della (27:00)
Well, and those in this case have come in really handy because your printer is broken.
Jazz (27:04)
They have.
they have. But it was something.
Della (27:08)
Right. So what was the transition
like from the States to Taiwan? I really felt like it took you about a year to get your feet under you.
Jazz (27:20)
absolutely. because I'm a realist and I don't like surprises, I predicted it would take us a year just to adjust. and then when we got here, I was like, it's going to take us two years. We moved to a rural city even though I want to say a good portion of people speak English, at the time it was just like, whoo, huge culture shock.
even for me, because I had moved around, I was a military brat. So I thought like, I'll adjust very quickly. just trying to figure out where places were, translating, I didn't even think about how long it would take to translate just simple texts. That took forever. every day we would go, okay, let's plan to go to the grocery store.
we're going to conquer the grocery store. would come up with a plan how we would do that. that would be our week mission.
Della (28:10)
a major transition because what I've learned from you is that it's sometimes easier, healthier, and cheaper to eat out.
Jazz (28:12)
Yeah!
Yes, most people don't have kitchens. Most people don't have as we've learned later on, you can go and pick up stuff from vendors, but it really is just super cheap to go and get a little container from a bento place or get fried rice or get dumplings. it's incredibly cheap. Now we're a family of six, so it evens out depending on who we're all trying to feed.
we could do groceries or we could eat out. It's going to be even regardless. let's eat out just adjusting to that, trying to figure out where can we get food from?
becoming accustomed to the food here. I was never a big fast food person. our first couple of weeks we weren't eating 7-Eleven, we were eating McDonald's because it was familiar. I was so glad when we started finding food places, because I cannot eat anymore McDonald's. cannot.
Della (29:15)
Bye.
Jazz (29:16)
I can't do this anymore. it was just one of the few options we had because it was familiar to the kids. We had a few picky eaters. Also, we have kids with allergies. And there was a worry of nuts being in the food. So one of my children, was just eating chicken nuggets almost every meal.
Della (29:35)
Yeah, I can imagine that
would, you I share your food allergy problem. And that is the hang up for me with traveling, especially with the language barrier. Like, how would you know that the food is safe?
Jazz (29:50)
Right, as we started to adjust more, I think the next place we went to was the night market. It was right down the street. We found out about it so you have all these stands, all this food, and we would have it translated on our phone. Do you have nuts in the food? Son has nut allergy. it was just that simple.
they would read it and some would say like no no no like you know no don't let him eat it and then some are like no okay, okay and That's pretty much how we did it for the first few months once we started getting more comfortable with the food and Different stands and vendors then it was just like okay. Well. This is this is what we're doing
But the language barrier was huge for us because anywhere we went there was some form of translation some form of us holding up phones and taking pictures to translate in the Something that would take five minutes would take us 30 minutes to an hour we're very humble people and we were grateful to be here but there were some days where it's incredibly frustrating because
You want to do something like run an errand, go pick some stuff up, you're translating everything. this has taken a really long time.
Della (30:57)
can imagine. Yeah,
that that would be a big barrier. What are some other significant differences that you guys noticed?
Jazz (31:08)
everyone was immediately friendly, in PA, we had moved around to different places because we were trying to figure out, where can we get our forever home? there was no place that quite felt right for us.
people are not quick to warm up, at least in Pennsylvania, because I also lived in South Carolina and people are very friendly in South Carolina. But here was a different kind of level nobody wanted to see us struggle. everyone was very quick to jump in. do you need anything? Do you need help? We came home with so much food almost every single day. Someone was giving us stuff, especially realizing that we were.
new foreigners here. I remember walking home from an errand and some guy pulled his car over and was like, Hey, hey, where are you from? And I was like, America. And he was like, okay. He was like, are you new? I was like, yes. And he's like, welcome. And then he handed me his lunch.
Della (32:04)
That is so heartwarming.
Jazz (32:05)
His little shirt.
It was, it was a bit alarming because you just don't expect someone to order, you know, in the States somebody pulls their car over, you think you're getting kidnapped. I was just like, like, whoa, what is happening here? I was ready to fight this man.
Della (32:10)
Right.
And you also had moved right before Lunar New Year. So what was that like in Taiwan?
Jazz (32:33)
we got here at the end of September. So we still had some time. what was funny was when we moved here, it was still typhoon season. even in the beginning, my husband had to work a lot and then they had a ton of holidays. it was would go to work and then he'd be like, okay, Jazz, I'm off for two days. then he'd go to work for a couple of days. He's like, oh, there's a holiday.
And then he would go and then come back. He's like, there's a typhoon day. And I was like, when are you going to work? When are you going to do what you're supposed to do? then Lunar New Year comes up and that's, I believe, the winter break. And it's a month. for us, that was actually wonderful because things close.
Everyone goes back home to spend time with their families. To me, it's very quiet. My Chinese tutor says it's very quiet on the outside, but inside everyone is very loud. It's a party and stuff. But for us, it was a chance to explore where we lived. And that's where we started learning where things were. Because we would just walk. We would just walk our neighborhood. We would walk around the city park.
just learning about different places. this is where this store is and this is where this vendor is. it was great. we started to feel more comfortable Homeschool was a little different. it was trickier. I did not anticipate that living here would be so difficult. And then the kids…
their eyes are wide open dealing with emotions and change. you don't know until you experience it. I had one child who really struggled with moving here in the change. My older two kids were great, but at the same time we were learning about the education system. certain parts felt daunting to them. And I have a toddler.
who's in a new place and it's just like, I want to be outside. why are we inside? I don't want to be here. that was tricky. The first six months were really hard for us as far as homeschool goes. I had books, but I didn't have a printer at the time. Once again, homeschool IG moms, just amazing. I had met a group of women.
through Jack and Link. they were so supportive and so helpful. we were actually able to get a printer because of them. which I'm very appreciative and grateful for. I remember sending them a message like, I got a printer. But.
Della (34:51)
Right, and
that's a big deal because you're limited in the curricula that you can get there.
Jazz (34:59)
Right, no one ships here and then if they offer digital, it's PDF so you have to print it. Honestly, the only way you can get a lot of stuff is through Amazon and that's a process too. You have to go through an app to get your packages and stuff and it gets easy once you set everything up but I had to set everything up
I have to figure out. Like I brought books, thankfully. I had our next unit that we were studying. I was grateful that I had foresight to think what will we need in case we don't have access to certain things? But it was wow, we're not in Kansas anymore.
Curriculum is not as accessible as I thought it was and once again, I just have I don't know what it is, but I Just made so many amazing friends through IG including you and talking to everyone and everyone saying okay, what do you need? just having that support
really helped because I was stressing.
Della (36:01)
land? What curricula did you choose? What could you get a hold of? How did that influence your homeschooling?
Jazz (36:08)
I knew we could count on Core Knowledge because it's free, it's online and then from there, just reaching out to friends and teacher friends and what they had available, I
was able to get curriculum through school districts from teacher friends. I can start putting together a plan. I also had children who had entered into middle school. And so we're dealing with preteens. I have a new teenager now. it's just like the emotional part of that.
Now we're trying to focus on the academic portion. Honestly, the homeschool community just really had my back. we were able to put something together. But just all the changes and the emotional part of those changes, I think, affected our homeschool as well. it was really hard for the kids to get into it.
Della (37:02)
the aspect that I know from talking to you also has been that
It has sent you on a path of homeschooling that looks a little more like school than some other homeschoolers.
Jazz (37:16)
Yes, I was. an eclectic homeschooler, but I was always on the side of old textbooks, getting curriculum through school districts. My kids were going part time to school, so I would look at what was available from the school district just because I was a huge fan of if we don't have to reinvent the wheel, let's not do it. So if there's a teacher guide to it.
and know the text is here then this works. And I felt comfortable with it. Also from my daughter's cyber school days, it came with a teacher guide. and there was a learning curve. so I learned how to use textbooks and learn how to implement lessons through textbooks, knew what to cross out when there was like group collaboration, all of that. I felt comfortable with it.
way more comfortable than I guess any other philosophy because I just feel like there is a learning curve with every single philosophy and you have to invest a lot of time in these philosophies, to understand them, to understand how you're going to implement them. I was just in a spot where I don't have time to do that. We're going to stick with what we know.
Della (38:25)
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Della (41:38)
Well, I think initially in the beginning of your homeschool journey too, there was this lingering option of going back to school.
Jazz (41:48)
Yes.
Della (41:49)
And that eventually
shifted. you have a family that is planning on going back into the school system, then I think it's worthwhile to look at that option. As a homeschool coach, I have seen a wide variety of different homeschooling options. And as soon as I see somebody say, you should never do it this way,
there's a family that needs to do it that exact way. For some reason, it fits their needs. so I've learned not to judge
Jazz (42:24)
Great.
I absolutely agree. And I think a lot of times when we make the decision to homeschool, when you first start out, you already have an idea of what you want your homeschool to look like. And then it becomes something completely different after you get your feet wet, and then you're in your second and third year. I
would probably agree that most people who start, one, have no clue what they're doing, and two, know, pick options that don't necessarily work for their families at first, because they don't know.
Della (42:55)
Most definitely. It takes two
to three years, I think, to really adjust until you have a homeschooling environment that really fits your family.
Jazz (43:08)
Right, absolutely. I tried different methods. I tried different philosophies, but I just kept coming back to traditional way. And I also realized the kind of person I was as a teacher to my kids. And I knew that if I wanted to make it more engaging more rich, I couldn't have doubt.
about what I was teaching, if I'm questioning, this enough? Am I doing the right thing? Then it was taking away from our homeschool and we weren't able to have these other experiences. I needed
to feel confident in the stuff that I was using. because I was so familiar with the textbook style, I rarely had questions. Whenever I was using any type of curriculum from a school district, there was hardly any questions of, this enough? Because it's all laid out, it's all right here. Now history was a little different and I had to just go through different histories. Right, so.
Della (44:02)
Yeah, let's talk about history.
Jazz (44:07)
I mean, everyone knows, the majority of history, depending on where you live, is very much whitewashed. There is history that is just the key points. So you're not focusing on the behind the scenes and how these movements came to be with these different people. I learned just as much history, new information, as the kids did. I remember…
we were learning about the women's suffrage. I knew Susan B. Anthony. I was seeing the pictures, it was all white women. I just assumed, okay, that's who the movement was for. But then homeschool, right.
Della (44:42)
Nah, were all kinds of, yeah.
Well, even well before Susan B. Anthony, Sojourner Truth was talking about that kind of equality for women.
Jazz (44:57)
Right. I came to all of this stuff because of homeschool because I remember purchasing some books to pair with the the unit that we were looking at. in this book, it was about the women behind the movement. there is indigenous women, Asian women, Black women. whoa. then I learned about the racism in
the women's suffrage movement.
Della (45:20)
that was a surprising thing to me. I also did not learn that till homeschooling. there was racism in the suffrage movement. they were leaving a lot of the African American women out of the equation.
Jazz (45:35)
Right. some of the leaders of the movement, Susan B. Anthony was friends with Frederick Douglass. we had learned about Ida B. Wells. Ida B. Wells critiqued the movement. She critiqued the racism. There was another woman. I feel like I'm going to get these names wrong, but I believe her name, first name was Francis, and she was very racist.
And she didn't like that Ida B. Wells was speaking out. And so she spoke to Susan B. Anthony about it. she asked Frederick Douglass, like, hey, can you talk to Ida? Which I found completely like, wow, really? To someone you can't even talk to yourself, you know? And like, tell her to calm down, essentially.
Like, excuse me? No. I don't know if it's the fire energy in me, but I was just like, absolutely not. IG was becoming popular at that time too, and someone else was sharing this story. they felt the same way, like, can you believe this? we learned about Ida B. Wells and everything she went through with journalism and lynchings and writing about them and being threatened.
Della (46:38)
Mm-hmm.
Jazz (46:38)
So,
homeschool really opened our eyes to there's a whole other world of history out there. I wanted to be a truth seeker in history, because I would look at something and I would say, okay, this happened, but what happened behind it? And who are the people involved? And whenever any movement, any major event, I would always look for the voices.
that weren't there. it opened my eyes to the fact that we really don't know anything about history. Like a lot of us really don't know.
Della (47:12)
Well, history is a challenging
in and of itself because you can't cover everything. You're having to pick and choose anyway. But it's been, in my experience, it's been so Eurocentric and we have the opportunity to broaden that up into different points of view, different
Jazz (47:23)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely. And I think the first step in even just building a history curriculum is just realizing that we're all ignorant to it, in some way, unless you were raised to seek these things out. But I think most of us as adults all kind of had the same education when it came to history. And even with me, my mom, she got a set of
encyclopedias, Black American encyclopedias. And I remember reading through the encyclopedias and thinking like, I know everything about Black history and how wrong I was because I didn't. information is always changing and more things are being uncovered. I realized, if I'm going to go into this, if I'm going to give my children this information and this knowledge, I need to go into this with the idea that I know nothing.
Della (48:12)
Yeah.
Jazz (48:27)
and I'm relearning everything. And that is what has helped us with really loving learning is looking up this information, discovering new things together and just that joy and that wonder of like, wow, can you believe this happened and having those conversations? History is one of my favorite subjects, even as a kid. And
I feel like that's also what has kept me homeschooling as well because when you start including all these voices, you realize we're just a speck. We're just a speck on this planet and everybody has thoughts, opinions, ideas, points of view, some helpful, some not. And it's just like collectively.
we make up these larger systems and these larger ideas and principles is truly something to be respected and honored.
Della (49:21)
What are some things that you
look for when you're teaching? What are some underlying currents or understandings that you're looking for? What kind of things do you look to include when you're teaching history?
Jazz (49:35)
Well, the first thing is there's no perfect history curriculum. We know this. the first thing is a spine. I'm looking for a spine it's not gonna have every thought and idea and every marginalized voice, but at least some acknowledgement.
if I'm looking at a textbook, there has to be some acknowledgement, that other people exist, essentially, and some truth behind some of these events. once I found that spine, okay, what can we add to it? So then that's when I sit down and I'm just like, okay, who's not here? Who's not front row and center? And I will, I will go through every ethnicity looking to see
were these voices there during this event and it's just not included. I will find their stories. I will find other stories accounts of those events through a different point of view. I will include those stories. I will look for media about what happened.
use what I've learned through TV and television, watching shows that left an impact on me that could correlate of those events. would also think about how do we see ourselves in history because we're all a part of history. Even if…
it seems like, in the smallest ways, we were all making history. And how can I include my children in that so that they understand why things have happened and shifted the way that they have. it would go from this spine or this textbook, and then we'd be surrounded by 20 different books. I would have a playlist on YouTube of different things to watch. And then I would
throw in some TV shows and then I would throw in an art project because the arts are so important. So now we have this art project and then I'm throwing music and that's how we review history.
Della (51:29)
are all
aspects I tried to do too. I'm not, I really tried to do a little bit of music but I wish I was better at that.
Jazz (51:39)
my husband is a graphic designer, I was a photographer, my mother is incredibly creative and I think that it was just there for us. Like my husband played the bass guitar so, not that that has anything to do with anything but.
Della (51:53)
Well, it does. It does because you are exposed to music, you're seeking it out, you have a certain level of knowledge, and it makes it easier for you.
Jazz (51:59)
Right.
And I think that something that we often discredit is who we were before homeschool. so before homeschool, we were a family that would wake up to music in the morning. we would go to bed to music. it was ingrained in our daily living. We would play jazz music while we were eating. my husband would play rock music as he's getting the kids.
to bed that was just our everyday life so then when it came to incorporating music and to our homeschool it was just like well second nature it just makes sense. So I always tell homeschoolers like who are you before you homeschool and add that because that's equally as important you know like don't give them
Della (52:46)
It is really important.
And I think it's also really important to include your own needs in your homeschooling. It's easy for us to include the needs of our children because we're so focused on them. But I think it's also important to be introspective and view your own needs and then make adaptations for those needs as well.
Jazz (53:14)
Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
Della (53:16)
Taiwan, what were the requirements for homeschooling for you
Jazz (53:23)
well, it's definitely different. When you are a foreigner, there are no requirements. Because I think…
Della (53:30)
Well,
that's an extreme way to get out of accountability for homeschooling.
Jazz (53:34)
right. it's not that they don't have, a homeschool board here. They do, but they don't expect you to stay long. Or if you are a foreigner, a professional, foreigner, you're putting your kid in a bilingual school or an international school. I think that's the assumption. and there are foreigners who homeschool, but.
You don't register with anyone. Now, if you do decide to register, I think what a lot of people don't know is they give you one chance to register as a foreign student. And that's across the board. K through 12 college. Once you register, that's it. I think for college you get two times. But once you register as a foreigner, then you've used that option up.
when you are applying to the next level of school, you are considered a local. if you register your child through homeschool or even in school, depending on the your child has to take the Chinese standardized test.
And that was something that I learned when I got here. it was quite a shock because I was hoping to register with the homeschool board and put all my kids in school part-time because that was the plan before we left. then realizing like, I could register my older kids and they would be held to the same standards as the local students here. And.
are not prepared for that at all. They do not know traditional Chinese. Yeah.
Della (55:00)
All of your children are currently
learning Chinese, right? Yeah.
Jazz (55:04)
Yeah, yes.
And it was like, whoa. So we had to think about things. had to change, change a few ideas and thoughts of how we thought we were going to approach homeschool. My older two are still homeschooling. My younger two are in the public school education system.
and then they after school because I still have to teach them ELA. and that's always fun. It was funny because I put them in school and I'm like they're in school. Yay. I just have to help with homework. And then it was like way.
They're no ELA Everything's in Chinese, duh.
Della (55:42)
Yeah.
Right?
Jazz (55:45)
But there is no oversight. So for me, having oversight and being used to oversight, was just like, this feels very uncomfortable actually. No one's checking in, no one's anything. I remember evaluator,
She decided she wasn't gonna evaluate anymore, but she had other options. So I reached out to one of those options and I said, I know I don't live in PA anymore, but would you still check our schoolwork? Would you still do a portfolio check? So I have some connections. Somebody is looking over what we're doing. And this woman said, yeah, sure, I can do that for you.
Della (56:21)
That is
so interesting to me. You are the second person in our interview that has told me that they have looked outside for portfolio evaluations in just checking to make sure you're on the right track with your kids.
Jazz (56:39)
I would say because I need it. I need that accountability. I know everyone says it's lifelong learning, it's all together. But for me, homeschool educating, I looked at it as a job. And the reason for that is because every job I worked, I had excellent work ethic. But as a mom, I'm good, but.
You know, I have my moments as most mothers do. So I was just like, I'm a good mom, but I'm an excellent worker. when I was approaching homeschool, I have to look at this as a job because if I look at this as part of motherhood, we are not going to do as well.
Della (57:02)
What don't we all?
Jazz (57:16)
and I took it seriously. So when I would send in my portfolio reviews, I'm reporting to management I got to show them the best of the best. and moving here and having nothing, I was just like, no, cause I'm going to slip. I'm going to slide. I'm not going to take this seriously.
need someone I need to report to. I need the accountability. Now I know some homeschoolers would say, you know, that's that, Traditional mindset, that's the Rockefeller mindset of school to work and probably have several arguments But
I like having an excellent work ethic and I like having someone to check over the things that I'm doing I like criticism when it's, constructive,
Della (57:57)
We really appreciate
our portfolios too. Not only is it helpful to have somebody review the work, but usually the evaluators are so knowledgeable and so helpful in any questions that you have or any insights that you might not have thought about. They are really excellent in filling in those gaps, gaps you may not have even known about.
Jazz (58:15)
Mm-hmm.
Della (58:23)
let's switch gears a little bit and talk about homeschooling teens because they are a whole different ballgame. Their circadian rhythms change. sometimes their demeanors change. Sometimes their needs change. So what's it like homeschooling teens?
Jazz (58:43)
I would say it is a double edged sword and not in the way you love talking to my teens. I love listening to their thoughts and ideas and I love seeing who they're becoming, who they could potentially become. I think even more than children, there is a lot more emotional support.
but you're also giving your teenager more autonomy and you are allowing them to make more decisions and make more mistakes. the natural consequences of things sometimes can be a little tricky to navigate because in your mind as an adult, you're thinking I wouldn't have made that decision, but they have to learn, I got to.
respectfully, not helicopter and hover. absolutely love just watching the gears and watching them grow. It's going too fast. I think the negative part of it is how society views teens and adapting to that. Because
It changes. Everything changes. When you have children, there's so much joy and whimsy and magic. even here, everyone loves kids. They have Children's Day. there's its brightness and so much color and it's beautiful. And then your kids become teenagers and the world has said, OK, work.
That's it. go do stuff. it breaks my heart because just listening to my teens, be interested in things and ask these questions that I would never think to ask or
Della (1:00:09)
Yeah.
Jazz (1:00:20)
Just even sitting and watching TV with my teenagers jokes that we laugh at and the things that they're starting to get, they care too. Yeah, they care too.
Della (1:00:26)
They're awesome! Teens are so amazing! I mean, you
get to have these amazing, deep conversations that you would never think to talk about. You get to see their personalities show through and they are so witty and so funny and they're so cute. yes, they're so creative. Yes.
Jazz (1:00:38)
Right.
and creative.
Della (1:00:52)
And there is all the other things that go along with that, navigating the emotions or whatever, but there is a real prejudice against young people that they're often assumed to be up to no good or given the benefit of the doubt. But I really enjoy teaching and having teens as well and young adults. Yeah.
Jazz (1:01:07)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
And they're not allowed to be idle, which I feel like is actually detrimental to becoming an adult because I was an adult that didn't understand rest and know what rest meant. And I feel like it starts when we become teenagers.
It's just go, go, go, go, go. You have to prepare for your future. it feels like there's no breaks and seeing my kids just be bored because when you have younger kids and they're bored and it's like, mom, I'm bored. go find something to do, then you watch what they create and build but for teenagers, no one wants them to be idol. It's go do something.
go be in this sport or this club. we start to overload them with things because we don't want them to stop. But homeschooling has allowed for the kids to stop and pause and process. we've talked about the talents and the skills that have come from that. with my daughter, who I didn't know could draw.
all of my kids draw with my husband. It's something they do on the weekends. she's self-taught. in those moments of quiet, in those moments of pause, she taught herself how to draw. now, her work is amazing. It's beautiful. it's just because she could be idle, she could be bored. She was given that space to do
should absolutely have that. we should continue that in adulthood. our teens need that. They want to draw too. They want to color. They still want to color in the coloring books.
Della (1:02:48)
Right, right. So what are
some adjustments that like I know for us there was adjustment in time. My daughter got up a little later, but she was also not
out mentally, maybe emotionally ready for school until later. we're not even checking in until 11 o'clock. And then there's also a lot more autonomy in the teen years. So maybe talk a little bit about that.
Jazz (1:03:20)
I have one child who loves getting up early and then the other child does not. And as someone who has start and end times when it comes to homeschooling different subjects, that can be a little tricky and it's like, okay, so we have to meet in the middle.
because I can't start too early because then one child will be left out and I can't start too late because now this child has hours upon hours of free time and they're waiting to start school and they want to. the time thing is a big deal. I think the mental part too of just wanting to start the day, watching them
get ready for the day, make breakfast and stuff. it's like what you were saying earlier about you need your coffee first before anything can start.
Della (1:04:02)
Yeah, I don't think we were recording yet, but I was saying, I need my coffee
and I don't know that it's so much about the coffee. It probably could be any warm, rich liquid, but I need 30 minutes to an hour to myself before I have, can you do this or do you know where this is?
Jazz (1:04:23)
Right.
Right. And I think it's the same with the teenagers. they need those moments in the beginning I'm awake. I'm here. I'm about to start learning. our homeschool times have shifted from there was one time we were starting at 1030 because it was just like, it just had to be like that. Because it was like by the time.
they were waking up and they were ready. It was now 1030. I think the other thing was literature change for us. The kids, as much as they appreciate the literature that would go along with some of their subjects, they also had an interest and a curiosity about the world. I had to start incorporating books that I was reading into our homeschool.
And like we read Atomic Habits together. And they were just like, wow, that information was really helpful. like, thank you, mommy. And I was just like, okay. Okay, we started incorporating more philosophy books. We read.
remember the title but it's by Tabitha Brown and it was like I tried a new thing and so the kids really love listening to that audiobook we got two-thirds of the way through it we definitely need to finish it they still read picture books and children books and stuff but also like being interested in the self-help books
and trying to figure out who they are and listening to the audiobooks The other change was just being the observer in their life and seeing the things that they were interested in. your kids say, I want to be this when I grow up. you take the paths to help them like, oh, OK, you want to be this? Well, here's some text. Here's some activities and stuff.
but just like even noticing what the kids are watching. my son, was watching a lot of YouTube videos about computer science and coding. are you interested in this? And he was just like, yeah. was like, we can do stuff if you want. And my daughter started watching house and I was like, are you interested in medical stuff?
Della (1:06:03)
Mm-hmm.
Jazz (1:06:23)
now she is doing anatomy and physiology. I'm not guiding them. I'm watching. They are the captains of their ship and I am the first mate.
Della (1:06:33)
what has been your greatest challenge in homeschooling?
Jazz (1:06:36)
time. I think time has been the biggest challenge. I realize that there is more time behind us than ahead of us. And in my mind, I just keep thinking there's so much for me to teach you. There's still so much for teach you.
Della (1:06:56)
feel that.
Jazz (1:06:57)
And it's hard.
Della (1:06:58)
I honestly
don't think you could ever teach it all. My son is in college and I still have that feeling.
Jazz (1:07:05)
Yes, and so then you are stuck with this decision of well, what can I teach you that's going to have the most impact? I think that has been hard for me because the world is changing faster than I can keep up with and the kids are learning this information faster than I can keep up with I
Della (1:07:21)
Mm-hmm.
Jazz (1:07:28)
can't predict their futures. I don't know what's going to happen. there is this worry of, well, if I teach you this one thing, then is that even going to apply when you become an adult? I feel like you hear this clock in your head of tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. that's what I struggle with.
we started a new thing. We're doing cultural studies. I felt like that was my way of giving back to the kids and giving them this wider insight into how the world works. Because when we moved here, it's not Western civilization. It's not the Eurocentric type of society. It's different here. They still use
Confucius practices here. they even have an event where you honor your elders and you wash their feet. we just got a notice for that, being part of the community and showing respect and honor to our elders and showing, you know,
how much we appreciate all the hard work that they've put in for future generations. And so you wash their feet as a sign of respect. And that's very I'm looking and I'm like, no, you guys need to learn so many different perspectives because even when they leave home,
they'll continue to seek out information and want to hear other stories and experiences, and not judge and not be quick to react and that's how I've been contending with this time that's going so fast is how can I make learning more insightful for you that you keep doing it when you leave home?
Della (1:09:01)
How do we cultivate
lifelong learners?
Jazz (1:09:05)
Right, I just want them to appreciate life and live it and not be burdened by it.
Della (1:09:13)
And that's something that
I have found myself doing with the teens also is protecting that time for enjoying the life that you're in right now and not being completely focused on what comes next, but enjoying where you are now. And I heard that when you were talking.
about your teens as well.
Jazz (1:09:40)
Right, and we do. like we have moments where we'll watch, you know, just watch TV together. We are watching BBC shows and Masterpiece Theatre. And typically you would think like a teenager is interested in that. If you want to watch these stuffy British shows, you know, from the outside looking in. But I add my personality to it. You know, I tell the kids the tea is hot.
And we add our own little car. It's an experience. The kids always say, because they'll sit there when it first starts. they'll go, my goodness. OK, what are we watching? And then I'll just pop in and be like, he read her for Phil. Can you believe that? And they'll look at me be like, well, what do you mean?
Della (1:10:09)
Watch Masterpiece with you.
Jazz (1:10:28)
Or like if there's a love interest and I'm like, he's standing 10 toes down for my girl. Yes, get him, honey. I'm like, you better get your man. And my teens are just like, what? What do you mean? And then they start to participate. They're like, he didn't deserve her. Cut him loose, See, this is why I couldn't get married. And it's just like, starts to get conversation.
Della (1:10:49)
I
love that they start participating.
Jazz (1:10:53)
And my son who because we watch, you know, we watch like the Pride and Prejudice shows and stuff, what people would consider like very feminine shows. he'll be in his room when we start them. And then he'll hear us hooting and hollering. And so he doesn't want to say like, I want to watch these with you. So what he'll do is he'll grab an iPad or his gaming console, and he'll slowly start to edge his way.
And then he'll sit there and then all of sudden he'll start asking questions. well, why did she do that? Well, why is she over there? Well, who is that? What's going on? And I'm just like, you're interested. And so we start including him in the conversation. And by the end of the show, he's just like, I can't believe she picked him. my goodness. He's terrible for her. she's making bad life choices. And my daughter and I are just like.
Della (1:11:28)
interest.
Jazz (1:11:41)
cracking up laughing behind her hands. I think like a lot of times too with teenagers, we think we're supposed to have big core moments, right? Like we're supposed to make these huge gestures of I'm your parent and I love you so much. And I just want you to understand that. And let's have this huge moment. And it's, doesn't have to be that.
Della (1:11:44)
Cheers.
Jazz (1:12:00)
It can simply be sitting on the couch watching a TV show, making jokes, cracking jokes, you know, or going to the night market and talking about the interactions we've had or food.
Della (1:12:05)
A quiet presence. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Well, and listening
to them when they talk, it's a lot of the same on a different level than it was when they were young. Almost every night when I get ready for bed, my daughter comes into my room and that's when she wants to talk and she just tells me all kinds of things. And I think the important thing is to be present.
Jazz (1:12:18)
Yes!
It is.
yeah.
Della (1:12:42)
I make a point to put down my phone when my children walk into the room, regardless of what I'm doing, and be there and listen.
Jazz (1:12:42)
Mm-hmm.
And they love it. They love inside jokes. They love having inside jokes, especially when they feel like, oh, I'm a part of this. I think our biggest joke right now is every time someone coughs or sneezes because one child's watching house. So when my husband and I are going, oh, do think it's allergies and it gets a cold? And she'll scream out, is it lupus?
Della (1:12:54)
They do.
Mm-hmm.
LUPUS?
Jazz (1:13:18)
Because on Houzz, the beginning of the episode, they would go, well maybe it's loop heads.
And so it's just… And so it's just… And I mean, Lupus is very serious thing. But they would say like, they would ask like, is it Lupus? And they would… Multiple episodes are like this. So she would scream.
Della (1:13:24)
did not see that coming.
Yes it is. I have a friend with it. Yes it is.
That's hilarious.
Jazz (1:13:44)
And then everyone would start laughing like, okay. But it's just having that and just like having that joy. You know, they can be very serious people too, you know? So it's just moments.
Della (1:13:55)
Yeah, well,
you have taught me that a lot is to seek out joy.
Jazz (1:14:01)
Always, always, the other thing is we're leading by example and everything is so hard. And when the kids watch us succumb to the negative, they still have to grow up in this world too. they look at it like, it's hopeless. But I'm like, no, there's always hope. There is always a small moment.
Della (1:14:02)
always.
Jazz (1:14:24)
life is always happening somewhere and even if it's just a minute or two, it's still happening. So I do try to prioritize the joy. I still make room for all the other emotions, anger, sadness, grief, and we've lost people. So understanding grieving has been important in our home.
Della (1:14:47)
okay.
Last question for today. What was something that surprised you in your homeschool journey?
Jazz (1:14:55)
that I would put so much of myself in it because you know this I'm a very private person when it comes to homeschool and the things that I hold near and dear to my heart like my love of history The way that I lead our morning conversations or even when we're starting a new book.
it's not stiff, I know that people view us when they see us as traditional homeschoolers, they immediately think public school at home, but it's not that at all. It's how we implement those lessons. And so I put so much of my personality and the quirkiness and the awkwardness and weirdness and stuff. All of that is ingrained in these lessons. And I show up as myself.
And I don't even think about it. it's just like, and so then when they're repeating information back and when we're, you know, I'm trying to see gauge how much information they retain, I often find that they retain the information where it felt personal and they felt included. And it's like, you know, they remember the other stuff too, but then they'll go, remember when we were sipping tea and you were talking about, you were talking about.
Della (1:16:04)
yeah, yeah, we have those too, yeah.
Well, Jazz, thank you so much for spending this time with me today. I've really enjoyed our conversation.
Jazz (1:16:17)
Thank you for having me.
Della (1:16:19)
Yeah,
and for anybody listening, can find any links, resources, and information on the website, thebeautyofplay.com forward slash podcast. There'll be a whole page of that information from today's discussion with Jazz.
Jazz (1:16:37)
Yay!
Della (1:16:39)
Thank you so much for listening today. If you can, leave us a review and share this podcast with a friend. Next week, we'll talk with Tanya about homeschooling a child with ADHD, transitioning back into middle school and high school after homeschooling, and her advice for first-time homeschoolers. We'll see you next week.
Hana (00:00)
But let me tell you, when it was right for them to be on their own, my heart was so at ease.
I just felt like it was right. I didn't have to go through that stress and my child didn't have to go through that stress and they do get over it and we do get over it. I just wasn't prepared for
I think my greatest, this is like really kind of silly, but I think my greatest challenge in homeschooling is me. I am the greatest challenge.
We almost do botany every year, even though it's only called for once. it's in fifth grade curriculum, but we are either in the garden or we're planting something or we're cooking. That's, part of botany in some way.
Della (00:27)
Yeah.
Hana (00:41)
Or you have an older student who's in high school and botany is entirely different because it's more like biology at that point potentially. I feel like that's something that very easily could appeal to so many different ages.
it's that adolescent years that I'm like, wow, there is…
as much going on in those years and as much care in the curriculum for those students as there has been in the previous seven years.
Della (01:10)
This week we're meeting Hana. Many of you probably already know Hana from her YouTube channel and her website, Pepper and Pine. Hana is deeply passionate about homeschooling and has been cultivating a rich, nurturing learning environment for her children since 2003. Drawing from her own strength and creativity, she's built a sustainable and inspiring homeschool journey rooted
in Waldorf-inspired Islamic approach. Her work emphasizes the importance of lifelong learning for both parent and child, and she encourages other homeschoolers to rediscover their own passions as a foundation for confident, joyful education. With three grown sons and a 14-year-old daughter still learning at home, Hana brings years of experience and insight to her teaching.
She is currently in a teacher training program at the Waldorf School of Orange County and a skilled artist, knitter, and maker sharing her talents to inspire and uplift her fellow homeschool families. Based in California, Henna documents her homeschooling journey through her website, Pepper and Pine, and across social media platforms where you can find her under Pepper and Pine on YouTube, Instagram,
Facebook, Threads, and TikTok.
Della (02:40)
This is a homeschool journey.
Della (03:42)
Hi Hana welcome. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Hana (03:47)
Hi Della, thank you for having me. I'm very excited about this.
Della (03:50)
I am too. I realize we've talked about a lot of different things over the years, but I don't know any of the answers to the questions that I'm asking you today.
Hana (04:02)
Very exciting. And yes, we have talked so much over the years. what's really fabulous about that is that having this opportunity to connect with you and other like-minded individuals is such a gift now that I know I didn't have when I first started out. So I'm especially loving this. And I really, it's close to my heart to do this and give back to others.
Della (04:26)
I agree. I think each person experience and differences really provides a wealth of information to other people. Well, let's start out with what state you're in and the requirements for homeschooling in your state.
Hana (04:45)
Yeah, it's a good question. And it's quite varied state to state. I'm in California, and I've only homeschooled in California. we have two types of schooling available, and that is the public school route or the private school route.
within the public school and the private school route, there are on-site and off-site choices.
you have offsite options. an offsite option for a private school might be say, a private tutor, like maybe you are a professional athlete or an actor or a musician, then you might choose that option if you're still in school and you need to.
complete your courses, then you might have a tutor or some kind of private school that offers off-site instruction. And then within that off-site instruction, you might find schools that say, hey, listen, we know that you want to do your own thing, so we will file the paperwork for you. Just give us a small fee, maybe $1 to $300 a year, and we'll file all the paperwork for you. And then you can just kind of go do your own thing.
And then even within that, you might find schools that are specifically catering to the homeschool family. And they might say, well, listen, give us a few hundred dollars and you can have access to like, say, our library or we'll organize field trips. And so that's another option within the private school option. You're still paying for this. But you can also say, you know what, I don't really need those kinds of services and I feel pretty confident in finding my own paperwork.
So you can just go directly to the website And then you can file your own paperwork and you can become a school of one family with.
as little as one teacher and one student, or you can have more students. And now the laws are changing all the time. So you have to make sure that you check on the updated laws. But I remember a time when I learned about this, where you could have a home school with more than five students, for instance. Let's just say you have more than five children. And then those schools end up becoming part of public record. So just letting you know that you might get a call one day for
someone saying, hey, can I join your school? And it's really just a home school. So that's all part of the private school route. What's really great about California is that you have a lot of public school option choices for homeschooling as well. So this would be the offsite choices through the public school system. And in that, you might have a charter school, you might have your county school, you might have your district school. So each of those options are going to be free.
They're going to provide books and services. And in some cases, like the charter school we were a part of, they'll actually provide funding.
These different institutions will offer a variety of things, but it's all free. And in some cases, you might even be provided your own materials or access to those libraries or access to field trips or access literally to funding, not cash, but funding that you can use in order to buy curriculum or attend classes.
So the lot of options within California, you just have to know what's going to be best for you because each one has its benefits and its challenges.
Della (08:04)
which one did you choose?
Hana (08:07)
We chose a variety of them. We started out with, I think, our district when we first started homeschooling. I didn't know very much, and I did something similar to what my mom did. I thought I went to my district and said, we want to homeschool. they said, no problem. We were enrolled in that school. And we met with a teacher, and she gave us a big stack of books that were a lot of teacher-made. This is in kindergarten, so for my five-year-old.
big stack of teacher manuals and some workbooks and we even had access to manipulatives and everything. we were required to do the work that other five year olds would be doing in our district. I realized I really wanted to do my own thing, my own Waldorf thing, and this wasn't working out and I would do.
like one entire week dedicated to all of the work that they would give us. And I'd get those worksheets done and then I'd spend the other three weeks doing our Waldorf inspired work. And it was not working out because at least in kindergarten, those two methods are so different. We just were not vibing. So then the following year decided to go to the county and this was what my mom had done so that I was a little more familiar with this. So within the county, this will service all the students within that county, not just your local district.
Now this system was a lot more established. It had been there for many years. Had a lot of services, a lot of familiarity with the homeschool families and the homeschool mentality. So it was a little bit more, I want to say a little more flexible in some ways, but still this is a public school. You have teachers, you have requirements, you have textbooks, and they also wanted to see a lot more lesson planning than I was prepared to do. So this was, I believe, either half of grade
kindergarten or this was grade one. I believe we left midway grade one. I just can't remember if we did a full year with the district or a full year with the county. It also didn't work out because those two pedagogies, know, local public school and Waldorf, they just didn't mix that well at that age. They do a little bit better later on. I had been going to homeschool conferences at this point, still when they were in person.
local homeschool groups were really active at the time. This is the early 2000s. Then I paid a private school to homeschool. So I paid a private school about $150. They filed all of my paperwork and they kind of just left me alone. I was like, this is perfect. And I was able to do exactly what I wanted, but there's no support. And I'm paying for everything out of pocket. And as you know, Waldorf materials are very expensive.
And this is the year that I had a single paintbrush that we all shared because that single paintbrush cost $14. It's just too much. So then we were with this. Yeah, we were with this school for a little bit and either around this time or at another time, because we've done this option much later as well. I thought, you know, I don't really need this private school to file my own paperwork. I'm actually going to try it on my own. And we have the California
Della (10:57)
That's a lot.
Hana (11:17)
homeschool network here, which is very supportive of independent homeschoolers and they have very clear directions on their website on how to file your own paperwork directly with the State Department of Education. So I tried it out and indeed it was so easy and I think the most exciting part that most people who do their own
PSA or they're know filed directly with the state is to choose a name for their school, we got to choose our own name for our school, which was fabulous. And then you're just accountable to the state. And I forgot to mention that when we were accountable to our private school, we were required to do either a grade or narrative report card and provide attendance. And those two things are also very important if you're doing
the public school route, which our teachers would take care of. But it's really important in all of this that you are following the laws because truancy a very serious issue and you don't want your children to be truant. So in all of this, make sure that you check the laws for your state, even your county, if they happen to be different, make sure that you are enrolled properly. Whatever your state says is proper enrollment. And make sure that for us, we had to just provide
attendance and a report card, which I did a narrative report card in those early years, which I really wish I had continued because it was far more expansive than just saying you get an A. And honestly, I would have given my children A's in all of their work because they're showing up, they're completing work, that's an A for me. But doing a narrative report card means I'm sharing exactly what my children learned that year, maybe what their challenges were.
what books we covered, what games we played, what field trips we partook in. All of those things is for me far better and I really, really wish that I'd continue that but I didn't. at this point I'm probably homeschooling two children and my oldest is maybe third or fourth grade and a friend of mine says, hey I'm joining this charter school and I want to
choose some Waldorf materials? Can you help me choose some Waldorf materials? Here are the vendors. Here's how much money I have." I said, sure. So I went to those vendors, looked at her budget, and I just started filling the cart with all of these things. And I thought, wait a minute, why don't I do this? Like, this sounds amazing. So then we went through the charter school system. We were given a certain amount of funding. We were able to buy all of the materials that we needed and
that's when our homeschool took the biggest shift in how we were able to use our materials and enjoy our time differently. It did take some time to get used to the charter school because you still have requirements, you still have attendance, and you still meet with your teacher once a month. that took a little while to get used to because we shifted thinking like, just need to provide enough to show this teacher that we've done work. And that shifted my…
aims and goals of homeschooling and I really did not like the way that felt. it's paramount to teaching to the test. I was like I don't like to just do work to show you we've done work. So I said you know that that's her job. She knows the state standards. She will take our work and fit it into the state standards. That's her skill set.
Della (14:29)
Mm.
Hana (14:44)
So I will utilize my time to do exactly what we want to do as far as homeschooling because it is learning all the time and focus on our Waldorf approach. And she very skillfully took our work and matched the state standards. And that's another thing. When you are homeschooling in, I believe, first grade to eighth grade or kindergarten to eighth grade, any of the work you do has to match
any of the standards between first and eighth grade or kindergarten eighth grade. I can't quite remember if kindergarten is included, which means that you could have a fifth grader doing first grade work and eighth grade work that same year and that counts as long as it meets one of those standards. Once you hit ninth grade, then it's a drastic shift and then that work has to meet
the standards, I believe, either in the grade level that you're in or between ninth and 12th grade. And of course, the credits and everything become very serious, making sure that you get enough time. And this is the most important thing is that your work represents high school rigor, not just that you did algebra, but that you did high school algebra because eighth grade and seventh grade algebra can look really different, especially from the Waldorf approach. So we've done a little bit of all of it. There are pros and cons to all of it.
But I do really appreciate the charter school system for its support, primarily financially.
Della (16:12)
did those requirements that you had in high school play a role in the choice that you had to graduate some of your children early and move to community college?
Hana (16:25)
Yeah, that's a really great question. I imagine that this will be different state to state. But what is the same, not just in the US, but probably wherever you're homeschooling, is that it's really important that by ninth grade or really before ninth grade, in my opinion, if you want your children at all to go to university or college, that you really have an eight year plan for them by the time they enter ninth grade. Now,
I feel like before ninth grade, we're really just building certain skills and really enjoying learning and having a love of learning and really exploring having just a magical time with education. For me, the shift was really puberty in ninth grade and ninth, 10th grade around that time. Because your grades in ninth grade and more specifically your GPA starting in 10th grade is going to affect your
your possibility of getting into university potentially. It's really important that we understand that. So now while we had great flexibility and freedom up until eighth grade, since we knew that our children were almost definitely going to go to university, our high school approach was very different. University or college, it kind of depends, but we were looking at a four year degree rather than a two year associate degree. Now this is really
dependent on your child and your family and what your goals are. And for us, university was not an option unless there was a child of mine who was like, really want to do something different. they were really under our mentorship quite a bit at that point. We really guided them through those years. And there are good things and bad things about guiding with this level of guidance.
the choices we made to exit high school early.
and have them enrolled in community college. it's important to know that your options for exiting high school early, at least in California, I don't know how it is in other states, it's not graduating high school. There are different tests that you can take, GED, and get other credits, but it's not graduating high school, which means that if you are enrolled in a charter school,
or in a public school and you want to exit high school early, you're likely not going to get the support from the school for you to do that because to the best of my knowledge and certainly things can change, it does look like a dropout rather than a graduation and that does not look good on the statistics for that school. Now I knew that we aren't just going to drop out of high school and not complete university. So my children don't have
the typical high school diploma. Now they have a certificate of completion of exiting being able to exit high school. They do not have a high school diploma, but they have their AA degree. They have their bachelor's degree. They have their master's degree. And that's okay because you're looking at the highest level of education. So we were completely okay with it. But if you decide to do anything else where really your highest form of education is going to be high school, you want to make sure that you're completing those credits.
You want to make sure that you can graduate your student. if even if you still decide to exit them early, which you can take the exit exam, but not actually submit it so that you can still graduate. And also you have to like make sure that you understand these rules really well and understand that this is 2026 and we are now going to be doing this with one more child in the upcoming year and the rules have changed. you please, please, please make sure that you're up to date on those rules.
the high school slash college experience, I think, is really where, in my opinion, students need as much care and mentorship and attention from parents, counselors, school counselors as much as possible because things are changing, because children might just not know, like, yeah, I love biology, but actually the career I want is entirely different. They may need that help and attention. And then,
every family or every classroom is going to have that one student that knows exactly what they want to do. They know exactly where they want to go. They know the career that they want to have. That's fabulous. They barely need any guardrails. But I think for most students, there's a little bit of confusion. As I think by ninth or 10th grade, you kind of have to have this figured out. That can be so challenging.
Della (21:00)
Yeah, yeah,
So how did you find yourself homeschooling? What did that path look like for you?
Hana (21:08)
My family actually had homeschooled my mom had homeschooled my younger two siblings and then my older sister Who's about maybe ten years older than I am had homeschooled some of her children So I was familiar with this as an option we weren't sure what we wanted to do when my first child was young we were getting closer to that time where we had to make a decision and
we sort of just left those options kind of open until the very last second where we're like, well, like, should we homeschool? Yeah, I guess we'll homeschool. But it wasn't until probably 10 or 15 years after I had started homeschooling that I realized that one of the major reasons why I homeschooled, I wasn't even aware of consciously at the time. And I'll tell you that. But first, I'll tell you the two.
logical reasons why we homeschooled. One was for religious reasons. We really wanted to have a more religious approach to our education, but I didn't want to send them to a religious school. And the other thing is that I definitely wanted a Waldorf approach to our education, which had been to a Waldorf school when I was younger, and my siblings, my older siblings, had been to a Waldorf school much longer than I had. But once I moved back to the States from France, I was in second grade.
and there wasn't a local Waldorf school, so we went to public school and I just had fallen out of my memory. I just hadn't thought about it until a chance encounter with someone when my child was four years old and had mentioned something about her child going to a Waldorf school. I'm like, you know, I know I had been to one and just that chance encounter and visiting that local school just sort of revived this renewed interest in Waldorf education. So my child was…
about four and a half nearing five years old. And I thought, well, I want a Waldorf education, but I don't want to send him to a Waldorf school.
I
So I thought, well, let me do this at home. And of course there was a whole trial and getting to that point where I felt like I had what I wanted, what I envisioned for my children. But what I realized about 10 or 15 years later was that the truth was I didn't want to be separated from my child. And I couldn't fathom the idea of this
this child who had only just turned five, literally probably a week before school started, to be away from me for four, six, eight hours a day, my heart just was not going to be able to handle it.
But let me tell you, when it was right for them to just be on their own, my heart was so at ease.
I just felt it was right. I didn't have to go through that stress and my child didn't have to go through that stress and they do get over it and we do get over it. I just wasn't prepared for that.
Della (23:53)
I was telling Tomika in my last episode that I wanted to be the one that got to teach my child. So I shared that feeling. Also, they were so young.
Five is so young Yeah, they're babies.
Hana (24:11)
their babies.
Della (24:14)
Tell me what you did before children and tell me how that has influenced your homeschooling.
Hana (24:22)
This is interesting. feel like I found my passion years after university, where I want to dedicate my time towards, which is not so different in a way. But I went to university to study chemistry and I studied chemistry because I thought I would be a high school chemistry teacher. It turns out I'm a very poor chemist, very terrible chemist. I actually like biology a lot better.
But I also, there's so much about biology the way that it was taught in school that I just didn't align with us from a religious perspective. the advice was like, why don't you try chemistry? And also for my local university, biology was a really impacted major for pre-med. actually I was probably a poor biologist too, because whenever we had to do a dissection, I'd have my lab partner do it.
And whenever we had anything that was the least bit explosive in chemistry, I would probably have my lab partner do it or I would probably close my eyes and turn away or I would just be in such anxiety. It turned out I really liked physics, but not the first quarter. I pretty much failed out of that physics class. And my counselor said, you know, if you can't do physics, you can't do chemistry.
Luckily, my do-over for physics, had the most brilliant professor ever, and I fell in love with physics, but that was not going to be my degree. But I think physics feels a little bit safer for me than chemistry
Della (25:52)
That's funny.
That came up in our chemistry conversation where you were talking about, apparently your daughter also has a little bit of reservation with explosions and setting things on fire. And if you don't know in Waldorf pedagogy, typically the way it approaches
Hana (26:06)
Yes!
Della (26:12)
Chemistry, and I think it's because it's in the middle school years and they're looking for that ooh and They do a lot of combustion.
Did any accidents happen in your chemistry classes?
Hana (26:27)
No, I was terrified of any accidents happening because the first thing you do is you learn all the safety protocols. And as you know, there's that shower inside a chemistry lab in case you get any chemicals on you, you have to go and get it off right away. One thing that was helpful in that was knowing that water is great at solving a lot of immediate problem, getting it diluted, getting it washed off. That was a bit of a comfort, but
No, nothing ever bad happened.
Della (26:56)
We had a guy set himself on fire in our lab, one of my labs. It turned out not being bad. Like you said, they do go over all the safety protocols before you even start all the labs. So we all knew them. And someone quickly shuffled him over to the shower and turned the shower on and it went out. But yeah, he…
Hana (27:03)
Wait, how- how- my gosh.
Della (27:24)
I think that was our most exciting lab experience. Yeah, it was miserable. I can see why you would be afraid of explosions and combustion and so forth in chemistry.
Hana (27:28)
That's memorable. Yeah, I know.
That's it.
Yeah.
my temperament and my personality, let's avoid the conflict. Let's just stay very far away from it.
So if my child is resisting reading, let's just give it a few months. Let's give it a few days. Let's give it a year. Let's give it time until that student is ready and the conflict diminishes.
most of the time this is okay and the times that it's not okay we should have had early intervention. So let me give you two really quick examples. My child is writing their letters incorrectly. This is very typical for a new student. Five, six, seven, eight. They're going to maybe write their sevens backwards or
their e's backwards or maybe upside down and you're like, that's okay, normal. they're doing such great progress. I'm not going to point that out. They will just grow out of it and most students do grow out of it. For the students who don't grow out of it, you've established a very poor habit and now to try to undo that is going to be a lot more challenging than had you had that early intervention. How are you going to know whether you needed early intervention or not?
Certainly more skilled teachers are going to know I gave in to my temperament, my personality, because most things worked out in the end. So I missed a lot of teaching opportunities. I missed a lot of problems that should have been resolved earlier because I assumed that things would work out.
Della (29:07)
knowing what we know about the science of reading, I do feel like most children do need explicit systematic teaching of phonics to be good readers. And I feel like if you are having any particular issues that you are noticing, having an assessment as a homeschooler is a really positive thing. It's not like…
in public education where sometimes children get labeled and that label follows them from one year to the next and then there are these prejudisms that happen associated with that label. In homeschool, It just gives you the information that you need in order to scaffold and support your child. You don't even have to share that assessment with anybody else, but if you know that there are issues with X, Y, or Z,
then you have the ability to scaffold them in the best way possible for their education.
Hana (30:07)
Yeah, that's really good advice. I think state by state, most states will offer those kinds of assessments through the public school. And what I learned most recently, I believe with California is that even if you're homeschooling, you still have access to those services through the public school system. And I think now they even do early intervention for hearing. So if you suspect that there could be a hearing issue,
You can have that assessed really early. do need that assessed early because that will affect language development and other things later on. sometimes we just don't even know where to begin with that. your local pediatrician is a great place to start. Also your local optometrist and even your local dentist.
Della (30:42)
Mm-hmm.
Hana (30:53)
one of my children had a vision issue, but not a sight issue. So going in to get his sight checked came back perfect, like 2020 or better, but his vision had an issue. And I would not have known about all of these nuanced issues.
had I not been going to homeschool conferences at the time. now we have different ways of getting our information.
Here's the other thing is that it's constantly a moving target because our children are growing in and out of issues. Some things do remain with them, but some things are, you know, they last a period of time.
Della (31:29)
And then they grow out of them. we've had that too.
Della (31:35)
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Della (34:48)
this one is a common one. And I'm going to just ask you because I know it gets asked a lot, like every workshop that we do together, this question gets asked. But if you were choosing to homeschool in a Waldorf fashion, how do you go about teaching multiple ages? Because obviously, if you are following what Waldorf schools are doing in what should be taught when
then you would be teaching two to three main lessons. So tell me how you handle multiple ages in a Waldorf style homeschooling.
Hana (35:24)
It's such a good question. And I think my answer might still be the same, but I am in my Waldorf teacher training, I'm learning more about child development and more about why these lessons are given at each stage, but at the same time, I'm also learning more about what the, I'm going to say this in my,
my interpretation of it. But what the ideal school might have looked like, that was never what the Waldorf School was. Okay. And I'm going to give you two examples of this so that we can understand in a greater picture, what is really important our kids, what is required by our peers, our community and our society and what our children really need in order just to live life.
my oldest son was a late reader, but I also want
to explain what that looks like exactly because reading of course is something we panic about early on. Reading for him did not become fluent until the summer before he started fifth grade and when he entered fifth grade and became a fluent reader he was reading at a fifth grade level. So this is really important to understand that he didn't become a reader and read at a first grade level or kindergarten or you know second grade he read at his level.
Now, could he decode some words before that? He certainly could. And decoding words and reading fluently, I think there's a difference between the two that we should recognize so that we can also understand those milestones that our students are going through so that we're also not panicked. There's some stuff going on. But he didn't read fluently until he had turned 11.
Rudolf Steiner also didn't read until around that age. I want to say 10 to 12. And he said something that I think is so profound that we need to remember when we are thinking about our children being spiritual beings, not just this physical entity that
we're kind of reduced to thinking our problems are all just physical if they're medical, for instance, that we're kind of forgetting that we're emotional and we're spiritual. he said it would be of no consequence. And it could actually be even better for the spirit of the child, spirituality or for his spiritual development if the child didn't read until 10, 11, 12 years old. So it was of no detriment to him. he's even saying
It would be of no detriment to anybody if they learn to read late. Now, I also want to just clarify spiritualism, spiritual being separate from religious or religious upbringing, because we can all agree that there is something that makes us alive that is unlike anything else.
Well, that was one thing. I said, well, then why aren't we doing that in school? Why aren't we spending our time between, you know, let's say school age, seven and 10 years old, doing something that's better or more meaningful for the child? And what would that look like? What did he say that would look like?
well, because society is expecting of us and we can stray a little bit, because Waldorf schools certainly do that, but we can't just stray that much. Maybe it's better for them in the long run that they are doing things with their hands, for instance, because we're certainly not doing enough things with our hands and enough things with our bodies. Our children need to be moving more and climbing trees and jumping from rock to rock and exploring the woods and.
and even learning skills with their hands. I'm a big proponent of learning skills with their hands.
The other thing was that Steiner said in one of his lectures that if he could, he would have a shoemaker on staff at all of the schools so that students could literally see how shoes are made. So I'm like, this is very interesting and curious because students at a Waldorf school learn how to do many things from
weaving to knitting to sewing to wood carving to stone carving to coppersmithing like all of these things he wants a shoe cobbler you know a shoemaker on staff as well i think we should also also have other professions as well like we really need to see where these materials are these products are
where they're originally coming from, we're disconnected from that in a big way. So these two things, why I'm mentioning them, is that when you then look back at the Waldorf curriculum and you look at the different main lesson blocks and then you think about your children and the developmental ages, what is it that we're really trying to do at each of these different grades? Like what is really the thing that we need to distill out of that entire year?
that is so particular for that age or that grade that is this window of opportunity for that time period that you're just not going to get as much later on. First of all, you yourself have to decide what your understanding is of child development.
So my understanding of child development is heavily influenced on the seven year cycles, which are observable, not just through Steiner's lens, but they're just observable. Also, understand it from not just a physical development, but from a spiritual development, emotional development. We have to understand like this whole child, all of the parts of this child that make up this being.
the human being really in essence. Once you have an understanding that aligns with you, your ideas, etc., then you can start to decide what kinds of lessons you want to combine or which ones you definitely want to keep for that grade level or for that age level.
the way that I approached it was that I always gave my seven-year-old, sometimes he or she would be almost eight years old, that inaugural lesson, that main lesson block in the letters of the alphabet. Quality of numbers should have come too but it's basically the letters of the alphabet. This was
Welcome to school. You are an official student. Certainly you've done a lot of learning before this point, but you get your first main lesson, your first main lesson book, your first set of crayons. It was just ceremonial for me. also I've combined grade levels into units
rather than a main lesson block approach so that it can kind of fit with multiple ages, multiple students. In the end, I really do love either a main lesson block approach that is going to bring in other materials for those other students or a unit study approach where it's that's just built into the unit study that you're going to be doing all these different kinds of activities and that naturally fits with multiple ages and multiple students. in
all of these situations, always chose the one student that this main lesson block was really intended And I taught to that student primarily, but brought in other materials so that the rest of my students were engaged in some way.
Della (42:17)
Yeah,
I did a similar thing with that and I've coached other people on doing similar things where you look at the family as a whole looking at the value of the family and what blocks are most important to that family. we were definitely not going to skip botany for anybody and we're not going to skip the animal block.
That was a big one for us. And then quality of numbers you're looking at your family at a whole, where everybody is, what blocks are most important that you want to make sure that you're hitting that block within a certain timeframe for that child. Maybe it's not
Botany right on fifth grade. Maybe you do botany on fourth grade or maybe you do it in sixth grade, but you're hitting botany around the child development time for that child. Definitely I wouldn't advocate for doing too many main lesson blocks at the same time. It's so much work. It's just too much work to do for multiple children.
Hana (43:22)
when you mentioned botany is a main lesson block that you would never skip, same with us. We almost do botany every year, even though it's only called for once. we are either in the garden or we're planting something or we're cooking. That's, part of botany in some way.
Della (43:27)
Yeah.
Hana (43:40)
Or you have an older student who's in high school and botany is entirely different because it's more like biology I feel like that's something that very easily could appeal to so many different ages. And then I'll tell you and I know you know this too because you've experienced it. I could be doing something that you might think, that's that's baby. That's like really young. That's juvenile. And the older kids love it.
And so if we're not saying, that's only for a first grader, but we're doing this all together, there's no trepidation about doing something we're just planting a seed. That's all we're doing. And you can plant a seed at any age. And then we circled through to daily work. And you're right, I love the Charlotte Mason approach so much.
Della (44:14)
Right.
Hana (44:21)
In a way, I want to say it's easy to understand and implement, but that's probably simplifying it too much. the idea of these short lessons, brilliant, varied lessons, having such a variety of lessons, so smart. I misunderstood when I was first homeschooling, because I was like, I love Charlotte Mason. I love Waldorf.
We're supposed to do a variety of lessons every day. How am I doing so many? I was like exhausting myself.
If you're coming in as a tutor and you're going to do multiple main lesson blocks a day with someone, because I did talk to a Waldorf teacher was like, oh, it's okay. 10 to 12, you do the first student. 12 to two, you do the next.
Okay, you are coming in as a teacher to do this with this family. That is not possible when you have other children. Who's going to watch the other children during that two hour block? always something comes up it was, in my opinion, lofty to think that that was going to be a possibility. In practicality, it's not. And we don't want to beat ourselves up for it. So the most I was ever able to do with my four children.
which because of their four year age difference, I was only ever homeschooling probably only three at a time since my children, exited high school early and only ever did two main lesson blocks that one year. So every day two main lesson blocks, insane work. Do not recommend it.
Della (45:38)
Yeah,
yeah, I really do think doing more than one main lesson block is not practical for a homeschooling family with multiple children.
Let's talk a little bit about building a Waldorf block, because you and I both do this similarly. What resources do you pull from? What are you thinking about as you build the block? What kind of things do you want to have in it?
just basically how do you approach building a Waldorf block?
Hana (46:14)
probably one of my favorite things to do is to build a block or a unit study
Well, I should say that I always want to have something hands-on in our unit. And I think you do too. it's almost always enjoyable as some families, some parents really don't like it. And now that I've almost done homeschooling my four children, there are certainly some children that really gravitate towards it more than others.
let's say you're homeschooling your first child and you see all these really beautiful projects that people are doing and it's just not working for you. It might not be you, might not be your preparation. It just might be your child who's just really not interested in type of learning. So I love the hands-on projects. I love cooking, or I should say I love eating, so I love getting into the kitchen. There was a year that I…
made it a priority to do all kinds of field trips. I have to say that we did a lot more field trips when my children were younger. It got a lot more challenging when my children were older or in community college or had sort of aged out of, you know, going to like children's museums or field trips and things like that.
Then there are the books, and this is where the Charlotte Mason comes in. Like, I love adding the books. And I have to say that now that my homeschool journey has come close to an end, I realized that in my enthusiasm for building these main lesson blocks in unit studies, I overdid it. In many ways, I overdid it. And so I want to caution what overdoing it might look like. I want to warn what that might mean for you as a teacher parent.
and what it might do for your children because you might think enthusiasm is great, passion is great in the homeschool world and maybe most of us need a little bit more of it. But for those of us who are coming with our whole body and souls, we can overdo it. This is what it looked like. let's just take botany for instance or astronomy or ancient Egypt. those areas of study that are going to have a lot of resources.
I would either go to the library or go to Rainbow Resources, one of my favorite websites. They have just about every single book, project, workbook, curriculum imaginable for the homeschooler I would type astronomy and I would go through 15 pages of products and it would be activities and kits and hand projects and…
a space kit that included space ice cream and the books and I would just add to cart, add to cart, all of these things I'd be so excited about. And then I would receive those materials. And then there was like, wait a minute, I have 10 books on astronomy. It out that six of them are almost the same. And I have scheduled all of them into my curriculum planning.
and I have three projects and actually they're all solar system projects. we don't need to do three solar systems. So my problem, which I don't think it's a common problem. I think maybe most of us are looking for ideas. Okay.
Della (49:14)
You know, it's a common problem for me. I pack our blocks and the consequences of that. I want to read all the books. I want to do all the projects. The consequences of that is you burn out your child, A typical Waldorf block is supposed to be three, four weeks max, or you can split them up if it's like botany where you need a spring and a fall.
Hana (49:16)
Bye.
Della (49:41)
Our astronomy lasted six weeks. It was a beautiful block, but at the end of it, we're all exhausted. can't wait to be done with it. something that took a long time for me to learn, there's a great book about this, Making Thinking Visible, is that there are different types of learning and thinking that we need to
help our children in doing. a huge portion of that is not just consumption, but analysis and digestion and then use of that material in some way. And that can look a lots of different ways. It can look like hexagonal thinking for analysis. can look like doing a project that has historical or factual
information within that project. It can look like illustration, narration, but in the beginning when I was homeschooling, I was cramming all of this stuff and wondering why we weren't doing it or having the retention not be there. They couldn't remember what we went over or the writing was poor. Why aren't you writing better? And it's because I was demanding
much at one time and I had to make room and I eventually learned, especially for writing projects, that I needed not to assign reading on that day if we were going to be writing because they needed to spend that time writing, depending on the quality of the writing that I was
wanting or expecting, also is a whole different learning experience. Because you can't edit and develop every piece of writing, you have to pick and choose. And so you have to be okay with some of the main lesson entries not being perfect. It took me a long time to figure that one out.
Hana (51:53)
forgot you and I are so similar in this I'd be curious is this is this a very niche issue to have or are other others do they get excited too I love the books I love the books so much and you'll notice that in the Waldorf approach we're not we're not behind a book
reading, right? That's like this barrier between you and the student. The student's like, well, look, if all you need to do is read a book, what do I need you for? we're supposed to be absorbing the information and being able to present it. But on many occasions, would, the vast majority of occasions, I wasn't ready to just do a lesson. So let me use this living book, Charlotte Mason living books. They're books that are usually from a single author, passionate. just
They're not a textbook, you can just really sense the enthusiasm from the author and the material itself. this is perfect. We would read our stack of books that I would either buy or get from the library. The problem with that, and you mentioned so many issues that come up with the burnout of the teacher, the burnout of the students, the potential for less quality work because you're going through things so quickly.
The other thing that I noticed and at first I'm like, oh, it's not such a bad idea. Actually, this is kind of a good idea. I've got, so many books on the solar system. we read one of them. similar to the first. There's like a couple of things that are different, but there's a lot of things that are the same. So then I'm well, the redundancy is not bad. that repetition is probably good for them. And I'm like, oh, well, you know, and I can actually ask this question as as I'm reading it aloud. I know we've already done this. Why don't I re
phrase this sentence into a question since you know it's something we already did. So those were little tricks that I used in doing this we do have the live education Waldorf curriculum and I have it from kindergarten through eighth grade. Now we haven't used all the main lesson blocks for sure. I'm aware of where the content is supposed to be.
I don't always follow it. A lot of times I'm just doing my own things. A lot of times I'm like following to the letter. And what I realized was that when I was following the main lesson blocks with a limited amount of additional resources and curated projects, everything went so much better. We did not get exhausted, as you said, from the main lesson block.
we stop when we still felt good about the content and not like, thank gosh, like we are finally done with this. The work that we did was more meaningful and more intentional. The writing and the illustrations, which we should not forego, as you said, we spent more time on it, whether the quality was better or not.
I can't really say, but we we made space for that, which is so important. We're not just looking at consumption, as you said, we're also looking at what did we learn from this or what did we understand from this? that's another thing that I really love the Charlotte Mason approach to narration was that I wasn't really testing my children. don't think I ever really tested them. Sure, tests came up, but not from me.
And if there were, was through conversation. was an organic assessment, Or it was through their written work, realizing, taught you capitalization. How is it that you were in sixth grade and you haven't capitalized the first letter of the sentence? don't understand. clearly there is a breakdown in my teaching and your application of that content. And I was
flabbergasted, so confused. So then it was like, okay, well, we need to go over this again, because in let's just take grammar, for instance, they could get all of that content correct over and over and over again for that entire main lesson block or that entire daily work exercise. then we transfer it to here's where you actually apply this in your narration. Your paragraphs are a mess. You don't have correct punctuation.
some words maybe are spelled incorrectly. there were those that breakdown of like teaching versus application. when I stuck more closely to the curriculum or when I edited my choices, when I was more intentional about our projects, our main lessons and our unit studies were more successful. My children were more engaged. We didn't have as much burnout. We ended on a high note.
endings were hard for me. I'm really great at a ceremonial beginning, but I'm pretty terrible at a proper ending. was usually our endings are because like we fizzle out or we just kind of have this mediocre ending before we move on. This is really important in Waldorf education. It's probably important just in life to have a proper beginning and a proper ending and that if you run into issues, especially when the children are young and especially if it's regarding skills,
and you're realizing that there is a frustration that is turning into either a meltdown, a tantrum, a crying, whatever it is that you realize like emotionally this child is not understanding this, you end that lesson right away. Okay, it's time to close, let's do our closing verse or let's, you know, it's time for lunch or it's time for a break or we're gonna go out, whatever it is, however you close it, you close it hopefully before you hit that point where there's a meltdown.
And then you can literally resume that class 15 minutes later or two hours or the next day. But we don't do that to our children. that was something that I learned much later on in our homeschooling journey from a seasoned Waldorf teacher who reminded me of the importance of closings and endings. also, you don't have to do a two-hour main lesson block. You're homeschooling. Do 20 minutes. And if there's a problem,
close your lesson and start again, it's okay.
Della (57:41)
that's interesting. I did not know about that with closings. That's really useful information. And I think having known that now I would have done things a lot differently. That's that's really interesting, Hana. That's useful
information.
Hana (57:59)
as I'm in my teacher training, as I'm working more towards my own harmony of my temperament, I'm realizing, there's actually a lot of wisdom in doing this. this is my, these are my goals and aims now.
that if I were in a teaching position, I would now be also mindful of those as a classroom or in a homeschool setting.
Della (58:24)
Right. The wonderful thing that we have available to us, and there are some public school system teachers that do this really well. How they do it with so many students is beyond me, but as the parent, you have the ability to see the entire child. And what I love about Waldorf Pedagogy is that it cultivates an education based on the
entire child. I remember doing a block on Africa. We did our history different from Waldorf schools timeline We did it in chronological order and when we hit the 1500s, 1600s and where the
Transatlantic slave trade was occurring. That's a heavy block. And so we sandwiched it between starting with the culture, which I think is really important. I have learned this from my black and brown friends and I am so grateful for it because when you're just focusing in on the negative, it still gives that picture of suppression. But celebrating
the culture and the joy and the achievement gives a fuller picture. So we started out with that. It was a great block. I found this artist who had done this piece that had fabrics from different tribes within Africa. it was, each fabric was cut into
the country and it made up the whole Afros absolutely beautiful. And I thought I want to do my block based on that fabric being the theme throughout the study of Africa. So I took that piece and I
did a bunch of research and I found some books. It was hard in the beginning, but I did eventually find some books. we went through a variety of tribes. You can't do them all. There's just so many. It's like here in the United States, there's over 500 indigenous peoples. You can't do them all. But we picked a few that hit all the areas of the continent.
And then we made an attempt to replicate some of the fabrics. It was such a fun block. Anyway, that was sandwiched in between the transatlantic slave trade. But when we finished that, it was such a heavy block and we really needed something more. And another Waldorf person, Robyn with Waldorfish who has the art
programs. She was like, do some art is like art therapy, do some art for finishing. And here's some suggested
samples that we can do and I picked that up and we did it because we needed it and that is the beauty of Waldorf is that it it does the whole child. You were talking earlier about balance and the need to be outdoors and making things with your hands. That approach is really what drew me to the pedagogy that and geometry.
You know how much I love math. When I saw Waldorf geometry, I was like, I am in love.
Hana (1:02:08)
Yeah.
that block is tremendously beautiful. That's a really great approach for your Africa, did you call it an Africa main lasso block or was it like the time period more so?
Della (1:02:16)
is.
what I was going for was that time period, but we focused in on the continent of Africa and the different people. We mixed in the geography, the tribes, the fabrics, all in that same block. But I did that block because we had hit the 15 and 16 hundreds in.
What else is happening? think also there, we might have done the Explore. The Age of Discovery is there too. And I think Waldorf does an Age of Discovery. But when I was reading, I think Charles Kovach, it was so Eurocentric. And there's such huge implications. We also shifted that block a lot as well to me.
more of our needs and to make it less Eurocentric. We just did Explorers of the World from different time periods and different places in the world. That was a really interesting block too. there were explorers that I did not know even before the 1400s like Ibn Battuta.
and there was a Chinese explorer. Yes, that's it. And that one in particular was really fascinating to me because their mindset was completely different in their travel and exploration. It was to meet and exchange ideas and gifts and
Hana (1:03:45)
Yeah, Zheng He, right?
Della (1:04:06)
bring those ideas and gifts back home. they loaded a huge fleet of ships with all kinds of gifts from Asia and set out to give these gifts and establish these relationships all around. I guess it would be Indonesia and the Pacific. How far did he go? Do you remember?
Hana (1:04:28)
Yeah, I want to say that he also might have almost made it beyond, like definitely to India, if I remember correctly, and maybe even beyond. But you're right, understanding the cultural significance of that mission and then the cultural shift after that mission is really insightful and understanding probably more specifically Chinese culture, but maybe
Asian culture in general. I found that to be really insightful along with the rest of the explorers and why they did what they did. in some cases, which I find a little disappointing, was maybe economic gain or some form of exploitation, which is not great in and of itself. when you're doing the age of exploration, I'm assuming as
Della (1:05:10)
Mm-hmm.
Hana (1:05:19)
for us as well. was at least for this content, the content that could become like, I don't know that about like human nature. That sounds like not the best of human nature, but it's at around the time, like puberty, post puberty, like middle, like that age range where students from a developmental perspective are ready for somewhat of the nuances between the right and wrong.
They are very much justice oriented, very much like consequence, like if that wasn't right and those are the very much about that. But now we're bringing in like this nuance of the character We also did an explorer's unit not too long ago and there's also a sense of conquering to or at least there's that seems to come. I don't want to say hand in hand always, but there's a bit of conquering that comes with exploration.
And then we're looking at, okay, for me as an adult, looking at the character of this person and trying to understand how do I teach this objectively or do I not teach it objectively? Do I talk about that person's character or do I leave that up to the student to figure out? Those things I've had like,
different approaches and differences of opinions even with myself, But it, for me as an adult, it calls into question a lot about the character of these individuals and maybe it's not just exploration. It could also be invention. It could be politicians. It could be any kind of person. They come with such a varied character. How do we take what they did that was good and how do we leave behind the rest?
And do we even do that? That's the question. Do we even do that for these kinds of people where for you maybe that kind of character doesn't align with your values? Then do you completely remove that person and we just, there's an invention quote unquote, we found this land, but we don't talk about that person. How do we go about doing that? And those are just questions that I have now because now
when you get to teaching young adults or adolescents, you get to have these conversations and it's really exciting to have.
Della (1:07:35)
It is really interesting to have and some of them like Columbus, I don't think you can get around not talking about him because
his voyages made such a huge impact even for historians there's something called the Colombian exchange because after that consistent contact there were worldwide implications
with US history. started out with Native American. We did similar with Africa. We studied the peoples, the culture, the art, the stories, and then we went into American history so that we have some context.
to what was going on, but we spent quite a bit of time on the Columbian Exchange during that because of the implications. The Smithsonian has an interesting book, Seeds of Change, and there's also an adult version, Seeds of Change, that talks about similar things, but in the Smithsonian book, they chose like a handful of items.
potatoes, corn, horses, disease, and a few others, and how that impacted the globe. It was a huge difference. Before that, Afro-Eurasia was kind of on its own, and the Americas were over here on their own. And there had been some little contact here and there. We have records of the Vikings.
from Vinland coming over. There were some Irish voyages that made it over, but we don't have any kind of constant contact. But when we have Columbus make his way over, there is a constant contact from them and it changes the globe for everybody on both sides. You know, it's interesting that you were talking about
child development during that time and how they have a strong sense of justice. They often see things as black and white and we're bringing in areas of grayness because they do that in art too. The art goes from from using charcoal. So you're black and white, the white of the paper and then the black of the charcoal and you're finding those shades of gray.
in the art as well during this development, It's really interesting how Waldorf Pedagogy does that.
Hana (1:10:22)
Yeah, it's so beautiful to see it all connected and I know that you also just completed a perspective drawing main lesson block, I don't think too long ago. And again, that also is brought in at that middle school age when they are now able to do that kind of perspective
Della (1:10:36)
Mm-hmm.
Hana (1:10:40)
drawing and the concept of perspective is exactly right for that development.
Della (1:10:45)
Right, right.
What has been your greatest challenge in homeschooling?
Hana (1:10:53)
this is like really kind of silly, but I think my greatest challenge in homeschooling is me. I am the greatest challenge. we learn so much through this experience and our children are our teachers and we are tested in ways that we didn't think we'd be tested, emotionally, physically, mentally. we're
have this opportunity for growth. And that's not why we choose to be parents or to homeschool our children. It's just a natural consequence of taking on this task. But it's been a growth opportunity for me. It's been an opportunity for connection with my children. It's been an opportunity for reflection on who I am and my personality and my temperament and why I keep finding myself in these same
either predicaments or challenges or successes based on my own personality Contending with myself is like the biggest challenge. But it's also been like one of
biggest rewards and it's not that this would be the only way to do this. think anytime you come up against a conflict or a growth opportunity you are going to mature and change and grow from that. it's also been like such a beautiful opportunity to have a relationship with my children. Hopefully they feel the same way too. Hopefully, hopefully that it is
as beautiful of an experience and a childhood as I envisioned it to be, because certainly in reality there were trials, but I hope the essence that's left is something that's beautiful and memorable and full of connection.
Della (1:12:37)
That really speaks to me. And I have the same experience with my kids when I look back over the years as a whole. I'm so grateful for the time that I got to spend with them. It was so meaningful.
last question for today, what was the biggest surprise for you in homeschooling?
Hana (1:13:04)
think the biggest surprise is both how easy and how hard it is. You can make it as challenging as you want it to be. And of course there are challenging experiences as well. But we can also make it easier. And it's a surprise at how much
control I had over that experience, I could make things way more complicated than they needed to be. And the outcome would have been the same as if I had made it easier. in fact, in some cases, the outcome could have been better if I had just not done it in the more complicated way. And it's the old saying, know, less is more. But really internalizing that and being
so careful about what you are going to spend your time with will have that meaningful outcome when we are curating that with intention,
so we can do less and we can make it meaningful and we can we can lessen the anxiety and the complication around it.
we can make it simple and it can be just as powerful and maybe in some cases even more powerful than if we had made it more complicated.
Della (1:14:26)
That's really interesting. when I coach homeschoolers about what they're doing, we start with the baseline. if we were just going to make sure three or four things happen, what does that look like?
And then we put those into place and we build on that until we hit our comfort level. Like this is ideally what I would like my homeschooling to look like. This is what we absolutely have to get done. And there are two things that happen when we do that. One, it shifts our perspective in that if we get the base done, we feel accomplished and
Two, it shows us the simplicity that can be needed for homeschooling. In addition to that, it sets us up for success in a number of different ways. One of them, which I'm going to talk with future guests about, is that at some point in homeschooling, especially if you have multiple age children, because you will be homeschooling from 12 to 20 years,
it's a long time that you're homeschooling. Something is going to happen in that journey. And you're going to need to pull back and slow down to a baseline. Almost certainly there's going to be a season of life, a pregnancy, a death in the family, some kind of illness, and you're going to need to pull back to that baseline and maybe even shift and outsource a lot of things.
so that you can either physically, emotionally, spiritually be in a different place. so having that baseline already well-defined, I am doing a reasonable job if I hit A, B, and C is really helpful. And I love…
how your experience and your expression has shown that even when we do that and maybe focus just on A, B, and C, that sometimes that can be as impactful as our full cake of homeschooling.
Hana (1:16:47)
It really can be. I'll tell you, I'll end with this and tell you that I have a friend whose child reminds me over and again that she remembers with fondly the day that she came over and baked apple pie with me. And I
really struggled to remember in detail that day it's so hard for me and all of the things that we did. And she did that one time with us. And what this reminds me of is that
those things that our children like I only did water coloring one time with my children are they even gonna remember it was even impactful yeah it's probably gonna be more impactful than the weekly water coloring that we did because it becomes part of like the environment it's not a significant experience so yeah you can just do that one thing one time don't feel guilty about it it's probably gonna be the one thing that your child remembers or your friend's child remembers
For years to come, she's 27. She still reminds me to this day.
Della (1:17:55)
Wow, that's great. I've really enjoyed our conversation today, Hana. Thank you so much for talking with me.
Hana (1:18:03)
Thank you, Della. Thank you for having me and listening to me. I really enjoy our conversations as well. And I know that we're going to be picking this up again.
Della (1:18:12)
Yes, okay, for our audience, please tell me all the different places that you can be found online.
Hana (1:18:19)
Yeah, you can find me at Pepper and Pine on my website at pepperandpine.com. And you can also find me on the social media platforms of YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok.
Della (1:18:33)
Excellent. Thank you again for joining me.
Hana (1:18:36)
Thank you, Della, for me.
Della (1:18:38)
Hi, friend, thanks so much for listening to the end. I hope it was useful to you. I think this is the spot that I'm supposed to ask for the five-star review or some such for CEO optimization. I don't know anything about that.
But I am interested in the podcast making its way to the people that need it most. If you'll forward it to a homeschooling friend or share it in your homeschool circles, I'd greatly appreciate it. I'll see you next week with an interview with Jazz, who moved to Taiwan and is navigating homeschooling in Southeast Asia. See you next week.
just feeling , what's happening out in the world now,
putting the political stuff aside, AI is coming, universities are not being funded. It's just wait, is what am I doing for homeschooling?
we're gonna look at the child in front of us in the world around us and try to give the education that they need for who they are.
and where they live now.
There's five symbols on that wampum for the Confederacy and that's for the Seneca, Cayuga, Onondaga, Onida and Mohawk.
Della (01:01)
This week we're meeting Tamika. Tamika is a homeschool mom of three currently living in Western New York. As a trained chemist, she brings her curiosity and love for science to her home education practice. In the early years, her homeschooling style was Waldorf inspired, making use of art,
hands-on learning, and living books, all while incorporating her family's multicultural background and desire to know more about the diverse world around them. Now, in the 11th year of homeschooling, she would describe her current style as eclectic and uses various curriculum, resources, and the local community to meet the educational needs of her fifth, eighth, and eleventh grade children.
Della (02:55)
Hi, Tomiko, welcome. And
Tomika (02:57)
Hello!
Della (02:58)
so you're here. So what I to start out with, because there's so much variation with the requirements are from state to state, I would for you to tell us what state you're in and requirements for that.
Tomika (03:12)
I am in New York State the requirements for New York State is that when your child is six, you need to let your local school district know that you're homeschooling. And so that's, send them in every single year, something that's called a letter of intent. And that's basically just saying, hi, we're going to homeschool. then after that, you need to send into your school district an individualized homeschool instruction plan.
which is basically saying these are the subjects that we're doing and you can use a list of resources, some topics that you're covering, and you could say that it's subject to change. there are, it's a very small list of things that are required your homeschool time. So it's the usual, you need to have
some English, language arts, math, social sciences, social studies, science, as you get through the grades library skills. But they have a list of everything that you need for your child to cover from K through 12. then every quarter, you need to send a quarterly report.
to say this is what we've covered, they've had this number, hours of instruction. you could just say we've met the minimum hours of instruction. it's, you don't have to be super detailed about it. then at the end of the year, you send a final assessment. for elementary grades, it can be a written narrative. She says, look, my student's doing great. They really enjoyed this this year. They learned.
whatever they learned this year, just something to say, okay, we did homeschool. It went well. And then for middle school, they need to be tested every other year using a standardized test. I think most people use the California achievement test here, where I am. And then they hit high school, they need to be tested every single year at the end of the year.
you're finished with homeschooling, you've met all the requirements, you let your school district know we're done, can we get what's called a letter of equivalency? And it is up to the school district of whether or not they will give you a letter of equivalency.
Della (05:13)
my gosh. Are you allowed to give your student a diploma?
Tomika (05:18)
I mean, I guess you could give them a diploma? I don't know if… I don't know who would count it though.
Della (05:24)
in my experience, when you start looking at colleges, if that's where you're bound, they don't have the same assessment as far as graduation for homeschoolers that they do for public school kids that have, a diploma. New York seems to me to have
Tomika (05:28)
Mm-hmm.
Thank you.
Right.
Della (05:45)
the most complex.
and highest accountability of education. Do you know anybody, maybe California, that has?
Tomika (05:53)
I feel
Pennsylvania, they have to do…
Don't they have to do a, really meet with somebody and portfolios? Is that a requirement? Because I feel you guys do portfolios.
Della (06:02)
I don't know. Well, Florida Florida does. Right.
We send our letter of intent like you do. And then you have a couple different options to send in to the county to say, we've met the requirements for homeschooling each year. One of them is to keep a portfolio and have an annual evaluation. And the other is to do standardized testing and send those.
Tomika (06:09)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Della (06:25)
results in. then there, but there are loopholes that people use. You can also enroll in an umbrella school, which only takes attendance. And if you're enrolled in an umbrella school, you're considered enrolled in a private school and the same standards aren't, aren't upheld if you are registered with the county as a homeschooler. But we registered with the county as a homeschooler.
and do an annual evaluation. And I really enjoy the annual evaluations for both my kids and myself. they, evaluators, there's such a wealth of information and I gained so much from that. And then also it gives my children the opportunity to go through their work for the year and see how much they've accomplished and share.
Tomika (07:12)
Great.
Della (07:14)
with someone else the things that they are most proud of.
Tomika (07:18)
Right.
I know that on paper it sounds we have the most accountability. I feel it's we have the most busy work. Really, because the school district can't say that what you've done is not enough. Or if you say, we've done this number of hours and we've met what we…
Della (07:26)
Mm.
Tomika (07:39)
what we've met at least 80 % of what we wanted to do. 80 % of what of what you wanted to do could be almost nothing. Do you know what I mean? So
Della (07:47)
Right.
Tomika (07:48)
You can tell them these are all, you can write out the list of all the topics that you covered. And even if the topics that you covered are not equivalent to what be covered in a public school for instance, they really cannot come back. And as long as your test scores are looking good,
they're not gonna come back and say , well, I see for algebra, you never got to, I don't know, the quadratic formula. right. But.
Della (08:11)
factoring quadratic formulas.
Tomika (08:13)
think so here you can put on probation. probation is if you're not turning in your paperwork and if when your students are testing, they're showing no improvement. or they test at below the 33rd percentile. For their grade level.
Della (08:23)
Mm-hmm.
that's interesting.
Tomika (08:32)
when you're on probation, if you take the next test and they show improvement, even if it is still not amazing, , okay, well, you showed improvement. So move along. So I would say , it does look we have a lot of accountability here, definitely are ways that people get around what's required.
Della (08:52)
when we first talked about New York's standards versus Florida standards, I was saying how intimidating and exhausting it is to have to do quarterly reports. And you were , once you get into it, it's not that, not that hard.
Tomika (09:07)
Right.
It's not, yeah, it's not that hard. I still don't doing them. You know, I still, I still am kind of , ugh, I have to just tell them , I'm doing it. trust me. I think most beginning homeschoolers, they want to impress the school districts. And they're , we, we've done all of these
topics and we went on all these field trips and my kids were in all these extracurricular classes and then when you start looking at what older homeschoolers are putting on their quarterly reports and it's just the headings of chapters in the books, just a couple of things and it's just okay I don't actually have to be doing
they're not really looking at it, really in depth that. which I'm not saying that you should be try to not give your child an education. Do you know what mean? But it's. Yeah.
Della (09:56)
Right. Yeah,
I don't think anybody within our circles is interested educational neglect.
Tomika (10:01)
great.
best.
Della (10:04)
How did your family find themselves homeschooling?
Tomika (10:09)
well, I would say that the seed for me was planted before my daughter was even born. my oldest who is 17, when I was pregnant with her, I was taking a prenatal yoga class and there was this little 13 year old girl who used to come to the yoga class. She was not pregnant. She was just attending, because she was shadowing our yoga instructor
I started talking to her and she was part of this homeschool program where they connected students to professionals in areas that they were interested in going into careers. she was shadowing a prenatal yoga instructor, a pediatrician, and a Montessori childcare
so just started talking to her, was , oh, that is so cool that you get to do this when you're 13, that you actually get to be out in the world and seeing how things work. think that first planned the seed. after my daughter was born, through the attachment parenting groups, I met a lot of homeschoolers and their kids. And I was , oh, this is not so out there. And I love learning.
And I just thought it would be really fun be there and part of that process as my kids were learning.
Della (11:16)
That's one of the reasons that I did it too. I taught preschool in college thinking that I would never go back to education. I really enjoyed my work in the preschoolers. it was a wonderfully educationally progressive preschooler. So there was lots of training that they gave to us, which was awesome.
Tomika (11:26)
Mm-hmm.
Della (11:37)
But when my child was born we also had been exposed to other homeschoolers. that time came where it was ready to send him to school. I was , wait, I want to be the one that teaches him how to read. And I want to be the one that spends my day with him. And I want to be the one that sees those aha moments in his education. And yeah, that's, that's why we.
Tomika (11:50)
Right.
me.
Right. Right.
Yeah,
where I was living at the time, the homeschoolers they were open to having the younger kids come and do things. they had, the info on all the little fun places to go and the museums and things that. it was I could send my kids to school.
or we could keep learning at home, going on field trips learning in a fun way. my daughter was also pretty sensitive and shy. so I think at the beginning too, it just seemed she would have needed an extra year anyway. And then once we got into it, we just never stopped.
Della (12:36)
Same,
What did you do before homeschooling and how has that influenced your homeschooling?
Tomika (12:45)
I had my daughter not too far out of finishing graduate school. I went to graduate school for chemistry. after I graduated with my master's, I stayed on with my PI, she was starting a biotech company. And so I was her director of R &D for a little while.
we were making slides for looking at the interaction of drugs with receptors inside of a phospholipid bilayer.
Della (13:12)
Let's pause because
I understand what you're saying. I don't know if everybody understands. So you were making special slides that would hold a fatty layer of membrane so that you could see the chemical interactions that were happening on that slide.
Tomika (13:25)
Yes.
Right,
at that membrane. if we go back to high school biology, we learned that if you have your cell, things will come to the cell membrane and might interact protein there. It's the key in the lock. The molecule might hit this protein, the protein will change and then inside the cell, it'll start off a cascade of whatever.
scientists, want to look how exactly are things drugs, how are they interacting with those proteins at the surface? when you have microscope slide and you have a the membrane of a cell or something that is an artificial membrane of a cell.
It's hard to see everything that's going on because there's just so much floating around. But we figured out that if we took a silica glass slide, and if we put some little teeny itty bitty spheres, nanosized silica spheres on top of it, it'd create porous slide almost. you can suspend this layer on top of this porous substrate.
and put a drug that has a dye on it and let it go and interact with the proteins in that fatty, the fossil, the bilayer. you can start to say, what's actually going on here? the idea was that we'd make these slides and sell them to companies that are doing…
these type of studies. Yes. So that's what I did.
And then my husband was also in graduate school and he finishes PhD. it was time for him to go do his postdoc. And he's also a chemist also. He's actually a physicist who ended up going to graduate school for chemistry. So he's now a chemist, a physical chemist.
Della (14:55)
and he's also in chemistry.
Tomika (15:05)
I was okay, I'm just gonna go with you. I'll find another job. This happened to me in
2008 when there weren't a lot of jobs or a great recession.
Della (15:15)
The Great Recession?
Tomika (15:18)
So I was , I'm not finding a job. we're gonna have our one kid. We're just gonna have the one kid. And, I wanted to stay home with the kid anyway for a little bit. And then after that,
at the next stop, it'll just be, two years for a postdoc. I'll go back to work. Kid will be ready to go to school. good, good to go. we started on that plan and it ended up, really liked staying home with my daughter and that little seed of, of homeschooling was starting to sprout. and so then I just ended up not ever.
Della (15:49)
And how does your background in chemistry affect your homeschooling?
Tomika (15:54)
Well, I would say at least for sciences, of course, we're very comfortable in the sciences here. I would say more our whole family has just kind this curiosity about life, how things work. it's kind of maybe got me in trouble a little bit with the homeschooling because
I just am not happy with taking curriculum just off the shelf. I really want to know how does this work? How are we learning how to read? I can't just be happy with buying, oh, everybody said to use this curriculum. I'm just going to get this one and go with it. I want to know, What's the research behind how we're learning certain
subjects is that curriculum following that or is just something else is this just a fad you know
Della (16:41)
my gosh, to make it that is just me and my membership subscription. The first post that is available is all the tools for learning and learning how we learn. This is how we learn as things spacing and are leaving memory recall, making connections, dual coding, and, that governs any kind of resource or
Tomika (16:54)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Right.
Della (17:06)
Curricula that I'm using are they doing those
things in their curricula because this is what the science says Tells us how we learn
Tomika (17:11)
Right.
that really has affected my homeschooling. also I really wanted to research all the different philosophies out there. And it started also when I was pregnant with my daughter, one of the moms who was also pregnant at the time, she owned the Montessori School. Actually, that the 13 year old.
that I told you about was attending, And she pulled me aside. She's , OK, if your kid ever goes to a Montessori school, here are the things to look for, because not all Montessori schools are the same. And that kind of sparks me oh, wait, so what is Montessori? I started looking at what Montessori was. And then I led to Riggio Emilia. then what is Waldorf? And then as I entered the home school space, Charlotte Mason,
and project-based learning and place-based learning. And so I could get into the weeds learning about all the philosophies, But in the end, I really did land Waldorf for the beginning. And although I have to say, because Waldorf was created in
Germany, the history of Waldorf it needed to be adapted for me for not only to be more modern, but also because my family is a multicultural family,
Della (18:14)
Yes, I know the history. Yeah.
Yes.
Tomika (18:28)
I am Chamorro and Black, so Chamorro are indigenous people of the island of Guam. So Pacific Islanders, which is a territory of the United Chamorros are all American citizens, regardless of whether or not they get to vote for their president, but they are American citizens. Similar to Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands, yes.
Della (18:43)
similar to Puerto Rico.
Tomika (18:48)
So my mother and father, met in California. They're both in the military. I also spent my childhood in different states and countries. I definitely have a global perspective, I would say, on life in general.
Della (19:04)
in the military housing and communities, they are slightly different than what we see in our regular everyday communities in that there's a greater number of diversity, there's a greater tolerance. Can you talk about that aspect?
Tomika (19:25)
the US military, they tend to people from lower income places and they also go into minority schools and try to recruit people into military. The result of that is the military is fairly diverse compared to the general population.
you find yourself living in different countries. You have to learn different languages. You do have to learn to be tolerant of other people, different ways of living. I would say most, well, I don't know if that's because of my parents, but most of the people that they surrounded us with were of that mindset. And there are some people who
They're in the military and they're stationed in in Milan, near Milan, and they will never leave the base. You know, there are those people, but I would say at least the people that my parents surrounded us with, they were interested in learning about the place where they lived. And also in school, we have a thing called host nations as part of our curriculum.
part of the DOD schools. I don't know if they still do it, but when I was younger they did. while you're in the country, you learn about the history of the country that you're living in. You learn about the culture, you learn about the food. you take field trips. you're immersed in the culture, you're not just on a little American Island in another country.
at least as a child, they try to get you out and learning about where you are.
Della (20:51)
to,
Tomika (20:52)
as far as homeschool goes, that means that, for instance, for Waldorf, when all the other kids are doing, grims, fairy tales for the alphabet, right? I'm trying to bring in
African American folk tales, maybe Mexican mythology, also legends from Guam, also being indigenous to someplace else, it gives me a greater appreciation for people who are indigenous from here.
I'm also gonna bring in stories from the Haudenosaunee, which are the indigenous people that live here the original peoples of Western New York.
Della (21:29)
And they're, fascinating culture and history
hugely, they were a huge impact. Franklin was fascinated by their Confederacy, which if you have not heard of Haudenosaunee, it's because that's what they call themselves.
Tomika (21:34)
you know, , yes.
Della (21:47)
Iroquois is what we're used to hearing, the Iroquois Confederacy, but they call themselves Haudenosaunee. And they have a wampum of the great peace.
I
found out that they bead their history, they don't formally write in the way we write, but this is a way of retaining the history. Well, yes, yes.
Tomika (22:05)
Right.
Right, I mean they do now, right, formerly, right, but yeah.
But yeah, originally, and they still do make the wampum. if you go to the Smithsonian DC, they have some of the wampum on display. And here you can see in some of our museums, locally in the area, they'll have wampums that are for different treaties,
Yeah.
Della (22:28)
That's the one that I'm
thinking of. have a wampum that has, I think it's a square in the middle and trees on the outside or I may have.
Tomika (22:32)
Right.
There's a tree. So the trees
in the middle. There's five symbols on that wampum for the Confederacy and that's for the Seneca, Cayuga, Onondaga, Onida and Mohawk. I wouldn't believe it's the Onondaga. They were the that's the middle. That's the
the great tree of peace. And so the idea is when they at war with each other, the great peacemaker came and said, guys, we can't do this anymore. We need to peace. And Taradajo, which was the warring leader, he had supposed to have snakes in his hair. And the grandmother the snakes out of his hair. When he finally agreed to the peace,
the people came together from those five nations and buried their weapons under the Great Tree of Peace. if you drive around here, you'll see in different places, that image of the squares with the tree in the middle, all over Western New York.
Della (23:27)
I just say how impressed I am that you remember that story in a way that you can just narrate it. That is so impressive. And you remembered all five nations and just point of clarity. There's six or seven nations now.
Tomika (23:33)
Okay
Six. At first six.
Now there's the Tuscarora because originally the Tuscarora, who are actually probably closer to where I live, at one point in time they moved down to Virginia, which I also lived in. And I think when, I'm not sure, maybe it's when the colonists came, they were , let's get out of here. And they came back up. And now the Tuscarora are folded back into the Confederacy.
Della (24:04)
I'm so impressed. Excellent. Yes, that's a… Yeah, it's a nice review for me.
Tomika (24:05)
Hahaha!
I taught history a couple times.
that's our local history. that I can teach, I can tell you about, but , maybe the history of the indigenous people where you are. Muscogee yeah, I don't have.
Della (24:23)
It's the Muscogee, the Appalachee,
the Creek and the Cherokee.
Tomika (24:29)
Right, I don't have a deep knowledge of
Della (24:33)
Understandably, understandably. What did the progression of homeschooling look like for you? So from when you started, when your oldest was little, and then you have two other children that you folded into the mix, what did it look like when they were little? How did it change? And what does it look like now?
Tomika (24:53)
as I said before, when my daughter was younger, I was really drawn to Waldorf. she kind of seemed she was maybe not as ready to start first grade as I think I would have liked her to be. But I think maybe that was probably just natural. some kids, they're really gung ho about starting school and she was.
I just I want to be out in the woods still and doing my crafts and things and so Waldorf was a very nice way to gently Fold her and so we started, doing the the blocks the storytelling the time when she was five or six, when she was six Her brothers were three
and then I had a newborn. that was a lot at one time to be starting school. it's hard to even remember that it was, there was a lot going on. So I did try to stick with the blocks the best I could. I think at that time, schooling had just popped up.
Della (25:33)
that's a lot at one time.
Tomika (25:49)
and I was able to get in with the co-op price on our schooling for a lifetime membership, which is amazing when I look at what it is now. And I think I also perhaps bought Waldorf Essentials from Melissa, But at the same time too, it's I felt I had to do a lot of changing things around because I wasn't necessarily happy with just doing all
European style we were in a co-op at the time. it was really important for me to get her outside a lot. we did do a lot of going out in the woods. We were part of an ecology class, there's a local ecology organization.
that teaches ecology in schools and in the community and they had homeschool classes. So we also did some of ecology classes with them and then jumped in on any field trips that kind of popped up in our local group. So I feel at the very beginning, was a lot of push to be do this better than public school, I maybe did too much.
because it was , we're doing all the things. then as my middle kid became old enough to I tried to do kind of more family unit blocks, um, in a way that was appropriate for him.
And I did start eventually over the years start relying more on standard curriculum. I think of the beginning especially that was also coinciding with the beginning of Instagram and everybody shows you we're doing Waldorf school and everything is so beautiful and we have all the clay and we have all the watercolors and the beeswax and nobody's really talking about.
how they are also using all about spelling with their Waldorf curriculum, or we're also using formal math curriculum took me a second to kind of catch on to that. we did end up folding in logic of English for reading and
We did some Singapore math and eventually some Beast Academy and Math Mammoth. Actually, we've done a lot of different math curricula, honestly, depending on the child. So we fold in some more traditional math to go with our traditional curricula to go with the Waldorf curriculum.
Della (28:07)
this took me a long time to catch up on too. then I did similar to what you did because we need to have daily language arts practice, daily math practice. foreign language is important to me. So we were doing what I call Waldorf block and then Charlotte Mason lessons. then I met Hana who I'm interviewing soon.
Tomika (28:18)
Great.
Nothing.
Della (28:33)
And
Tomika (28:33)
Okay.
Della (28:34)
she calls that daily work. in a Waldorf school, they have their main lesson block and then they have their daily work. So they're still doing spelling, math, language arts, et cetera. and yeah, that took me a little while to catch on to too, but we definitely have our main lesson block. And then we have our daily work, which are short.
Tomika (28:41)
Braids. Braids.
Great.
Yeah.
Right.
Della (28:57)
Charlotte Mason style lessons five to seven minutes with some practice.
Tomika (29:00)
Ready.
think that's exactly what we ended up kind of doing. So for instance, we do a little bit that Waldorf of math. So for instance, for second grade, we do a story the folk tales type stories in the second grade.
we do our little folktale story, do something little hands on, but then he'd have just a worksheet of problems from math mammoth. I felt some of these more straightforward were really good for that daily practice. My youngest child, started interning school at the same time, math with confidence.
on the scene and I actually really loved that curriculum for him and that was also very easy to add in with Waldorf. Although I would say he's the least Waldorf-y of them all. And at this point he is in the fifth grade. We have basically dropped Waldorf for him. Yeah.
Della (29:52)
Yeah.
So tell me what did your middle school schedule look And you're oldest now and 17 so she's been high school.
Tomika (30:01)
My, yeah, she's in high school.
She's doing dual enrollment. she is fairly independent from me. unfortunately, I would say schoolwork ends up being online. So she's doing Mr. D for math. that is a lecture that's online. There's some homework that goes with it.
and then she's in charge of actually grading that herself. For science, she's doing human nutrition at the local community college, and that is a asynchronous online class. it's really involved. My husband who teaches chemistry at our local university, he's , this class is not first year freshman class.
that has been a challenge for She likes it and she's doing well. She's getting an A. But she's really dipping her toes into what a college class could look . we're using a little bit of Students of History, which is a curriculum created by a school teacher,
in the public schools. he has lectures online, he has worksheets. then we can match that with reading we're pulling from different places, but she's fairly independent. she'll be doing her English for this year through dual enrollment also.
then for my middle schooler, he is more independent than my oldest was. for math, he's using math without borders for algebra. we are doing earth science together. for his English language arts, it's a mix of doing brave writer. He's doing sentence diagramming using
the critical thinking companies? then also we do a little bit more writing with grammar using Eben Moore. And I never thought that I'd be somebody who's buying workbooks, but they have definitely come in handy. then we have a co-op. Our co-op has changed.
through the years because the kids in the co-op have gotten older. once the pandemic hit, our co-op went from being an all in person co-op, although I was not in the school at that time, to being online. the way our co-op had functioned for a while was that even post pandemic. We meet for a Zoom class on Fridays. They'd have a rotating schedule.
different people teaching, and then after lunch we'd all meet somewhere in person for a field trip.
My eighth grader…
He's been talking about going to MIT since he was in the seventh grade. Yeah. So we'll see. Yeah, I know. Like, okay, no pressure there, right? So for him, it's , okay, well, if that's what you want to do, I have to be really real with him. you need to be very on top of things for everything, and then it's , we need to start talking about what are you doing outside of homeschool?
Della (32:23)
Impressive. Good luck, mama.
Right.
Tomika (32:45)
Right.
my husband's yeah, he kind scares me a little bit because are we gonna give, are we gonna be able to give him enough of what he needs to get to where he wants to go? You know, it's, that's a little-
Della (32:47)
you
I think you can. have
full faith. I've seen what you've done. just if you don't know already, You can do dual enrollment in a university and not just a community college, which I did not realize. There are all kinds of free classes. MIT has free college courses online. There are lots of different resources for children.
Tomika (32:58)
you
Yeah.
Bryce.
Yes.
Right. Yeah, we
started, we definitely started looking at some of those. as we're trying to plan out what he's going to do for high school and thinking about
getting him an opportunity to do research. Like, at the local university.
Della (33:24)
That's a great idea. Make
sure he does math through calculus. Yeah.
Tomika (33:30)
Yeah, of course. Yeah.
I think that the curriculum that I've picked for him to do for math will set him up really well. Like my husband says, he's not super impressed with the math that most students are coming to college with at the moment. doesn't matter where they're going to school.
My daughter, doesn't seem as burned out from school kids going into college are.
Della (33:51)
Yes, we have had the same experience and because of that and because our philosophy in our house and I think most homeschoolers house is mastery, not how hard can we push, how fast can we go. We have taken our dual enrollment classes slower.
Tomika (33:51)
Yeah.
Right.
Della (34:11)
And he's been more serious than a lot of students in the class. He's actually doing the reading. I was surprised to find out a lot of college kids are not doing the reading.
Tomika (34:21)
Right.
Della (34:26)
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Della (37:39)
Let's talk about math curricula. You know, I had a hard time deciding what kind of algebra that we were going to do. feel especially if your child is college bound, a lot of the homeschool curricula, some of the homeschool curricula, particularly for algebra is not enough.
Tomika (37:52)
Mm-hmm.
Della (37:55)
we used Math U See with my son and I supplemented because it simply is not enough and leaves out quite a bit in the textbook on the flip side for my daughter. You're going to laugh. I picked up the art of problem solving, which if anyone listening doesn't know is very challenging.
Tomika (37:55)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Great.
Della (38:18)
I was seeing some college algebra in there. and so I'm , this is too much. mean, I love math, but my children are not going into math. we've dropped that and I'm looking for something that had enough practice, but not as
much practice. I feel the art of problem solving went too fast. You didn't have enough practice for the problems that they did and were too complex. there needs to be more baby steps for most students. in the other side, there's not enough that's gone over the art of problem solving didn't have much on the Cartesian plane.
Tomika (38:42)
rates.
you.
Della (39:00)
and coordinates, but Math U See didn't have enough of algebraic manipulation. And I'm back to teaching and we're using Making Math Meaningful, it's a workbook for practice, which I feel is just spot on for practice. But Making Math Meaningful is a resource, it's not a curricula.
Tomika (39:00)
Right.
Okay.
right now.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Right,
For algebra, found I math without borders.
Della (39:30)
Mm-hmm.
Tomika (39:30)
And it it uses Prentice Hall Classics algebra.
It very much felt an algebra class kind of similar to what I took when I was in high school. I felt hearing feedback from my husband about how math is going for his students. At first I was is that really a good thing to say? it's math when I in school 20 years ago. kids are coming unprepared
Della (39:44)
right?
Tomika (39:53)
university to do math in a basic general chemistry class then this is fine. I mean I got a minor in math right so yeah I did. I'm minor in math. really?
Della (40:02)
did not know that you minored in math. I minored in chemistry. My major is biology,
specifically marine biology, and I minored in chemistry. And I had had most of my math in high school. did in my college class.
Tomika (40:08)
Right.
Right, right. No,
for chemistry, you have to take a lot of math. I took math through calculus in high school. And then when I got to university, the scholarship program that I was in, they required us to take calculus again, no matter what you did in the summer before college. for chemistry at the time, we were required to take through differential equations.
Della (40:35)
Okay.
Tomika (40:36)
so it turns out in order to get a minor, you only need two other classes. of math. So I had so much math already. I was , okay, yeah, sure. Throw in some statistics, which is weird that it's not required. And, a geometry class, an advanced geometry class. It is weird. It was not. I mean, I, I do feel , yes, that definitely makes sense for biology, especially marine biology.
Della (40:41)
because you've had so much math already.
That is weird. It definitely was required for my degree.
Tomika (41:03)
But it is also weird that for chemistry, we weren't required to take a statistics class. yeah, so just threw in two other classes and ended up taking that. OK, so back with Math Without Borders is the curriculum that my middle child is using for algebra. it's independent mostly for him.
he basically gives a little lecture. My son, takes notes during the lecture. And then gives you a problem set to do.
Della (41:28)
Does it ever do interleaving? it bring those things back up and mix in a variety of problems so there's some assessment?
Tomika (41:35)
years.
There is a little bit, because it's a traditional algebra textbook, there are some, at the end of every chapter a word problems section. And so some of those you'll get some things from before. Like, first all, you're talking about the Cartesian coordinates. My son did that in chapter seven.
I'm pretty sure that I've not seen him do that again,
Della (41:58)
And how does it do with application? Because one of the things I hear a lot from a lot of adults are , I don't know why we had algebra. We should have had personal. Finance. I never use algebra. And I feel that's a false dichotomy. Yes, we need to be teaching personal finance, but I also think that those adults either don't realize how often they're using algebra. Any formula is algebra. And second,
Tomika (42:17)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Della (42:26)
If you're not using algebra, then you probably weren't taught its application and you're missing out because it makes it so easy. I had to make a 70 % solution from a 90 % solution for isopropyl alcohol for a project that we were doing and I used algebra. I mean, you can get there in other ways, but algebra is so easy.
Tomika (42:36)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Right. Yeah. I think that this, I said, the end of each chapter is word problems. And I feel here the word problems are pretty applied. Like you can see them in real life. I should ask my son if he's noticing that they're real life problems.
If somebody didn't want to use this curriculum and they wanted to see more applied problems, I believe that Math Mammoth actually has some books that are just applied math concepts.
Della (43:19)
well, and also physics. My son in middle school gave me a lot of resistance. When am I going to use this? This is not applicable. I don't need to learn this because I'm never going to use it. And so for his eighth grade year, all of his math was applied physics. Yeah.
Tomika (43:22)
Right.
to read.
Great.
Okay, nice.
Yeah, this instructor on Math without Borders, actually has a physics curriculum too. And I think that one though, it's for high school
for middle school, science, we did a lot of kind of in a Charlotte Mason way, a lot of reading of popular science books to see how some of those things apply. there's so many great books out there, people who are very passionate about subject,
Della (44:08)
want to talk about that. Let's talk about math curricula in the early years and then let's talk about how we teach science. So me what you used math curricula in the early years.
Tomika (44:19)
math curricula for the early years, did for K through I'd say maybe fourth grade for my older two, did a mix Waldorf and math mammoth. I would just look at what the chapter was for math mammoth. And then I think about , okay, what Waldorf stories, artwork go with that?
we have a story, we do some of the art maybe, maybe we'd make our own manipulatives. then we pull out the Math Mammoth book and they do the paperwork, For my youngest,
We did a lot. actually used your quality of numbers.
Della (44:59)
quality of numbers. I love,
love, love that block
Tomika (45:05)
And so we did quality of numbers with math with confidence a little bit.
Della (45:09)
We did quality
and numbers for all of her first grade year. I started it as a block and I was , this is so amazing for anybody that doesn't know quality of numbers is the opening block for a Waldorf style introduction to mathematics. it's very hands on lots of movement, lots of art, and it is a study of numbers. So usually in mathematics.
Tomika (45:15)
Right. Uh huh. Right.
news.
Della (45:36)
your top mathematical concepts at a time. You're focusing in on multiplication or fractions, but for quality of numbers, it is the study of numbers. that block was so much fun when we started. It was just , we're going to do it all year round.
Tomika (45:54)
Yeah, we definitely, I would say we use that for a good part of the year. I definitely pulled different activities and concepts and for the good portion of first grade,
Della (46:08)
What else did you
use? Did you mostly use math mammoth Was that your main curriculum?
Tomika (46:14)
yeah, we
use mostly use math now with my daughter. We tried Singapore math a little bit.
Della (46:19)
How did those compare?
Tomika (46:20)
Singapore Math, comes with a home instruction guide it almost compares with math with confidence little bit more where it has activities that you do a hands-on portion and then it has a workbook that goes with it. Math Mammoth is almost written to the child.
And I think for if you're not doing Woldorf with it, a lot of people would read a little bit of the instructions and then the kids do of the problems. Although one thing I didn't realize when we first started Math Mammoth is woman who wrote the curriculum, she suggests that you don't do all the problems. I did not catch that at first. my daughter was this is so much.
And later I was going back through the introduction and somewhere I had missed that she said, you don't need to do all the problems. fun.
Della (47:08)
I think
most curricula will give you more than what you need, and you need to pick and choose what's applicable for your family.
Tomika (47:12)
Yes.
Right.
Right. Yeah.
Della (47:17)
is that more workbooky or is that more hands-on lab kind of math?
Tomika (47:22)
I think it depends on how you use it. in the early years, it's intended to be more hands-on. I want to say that there's different types of Singapore math. Like there may be two or three different workbooks. don't know. But the one that we got, came with the Home Instructor's Guide. And so the Home Instructor's Guide, kind of similar with Math with Confidence, it teaches you how to introduce the concept.
to your it tells you bring out these manipulatives, have them, move things around. whereas I feel Math Mammoth was mostly just workbook-y, it was really great for my second child, because I already felt confident with.
doing the hands-on things and I felt it gave us a little bit more space for the Waldorf stuff. Whereas if you're following the Singapore for instance sometimes it's it's too much I'm trying to do the story and make little clay manipulatives and also do the things that this part that this curriculum says I'm supposed to be doing and then the work so sometimes having a more streamlined
curriculum works if you feel confident in doing the other stuff yourself.
Della (48:22)
Right.
we used Miquon when my son was little and that is supposed to definitely be lab, math lab. I Gattegno's work. It, he is a heavy influence in my guides and he uses
Tomika (48:32)
Mm-hmm.
Thank you.
Della (48:42)
Cuisinaire rods and they are by far my very favorite math manipulative because they are so versatile in the math that they can exhibit and it makes abstract things concrete. But if you're doing the Miquon workbooks, you're using those, it's so easy to fall into just doing the workbook and not the lab.
Tomika (48:44)
Right.
Right.
magic.
Right.
Right.
Della (49:05)
And I think for beginners,
Tomika (49:05)
Right.
Della (49:06)
in the beginning, they have a very thick manual that goes over how someone used it as a lab for several years, or maybe it's kindergarten first and second, but it's really thick. It's really dense to read through. that's hard for a beginning homeschooler with a bunch of small children.
Tomika (49:12)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Della (49:28)
that's one of the reasons that I wrote my math guides is because I love Jamie York's making math meaningful, but they're written assuming that you know math and they're written assuming that you have some kind of Waldorf teacher training.
Tomika (49:33)
Mm-hmm.
And.
Della (49:44)
a lot of people were having difficulty from the concepts listed in the resource book and making that happen in fruition. So I wrote out lessons, guides, this is how you can do this.
Tomika (49:53)
Great.
Yes,
I think it's really nice for the younger years especially, curriculum that's written for homeschoolers, by homeschoolers who are knowledgeable. Because I feel with the Singapore Math they did have that home instruction manual, but I don't know who that was written Do
I have found early on. I use a lot of information from Carrie from parenting passageway. Yeah, Hana yeah, then Jean from Waldorf inspired homeschooling. I actually took some.
Della (50:18)
I don't know her.
with Pepper and Pine.
Tomika (50:29)
classes with her to talk about she does planning classes for Waldorf, which is really nice. she goes over what are the concepts you're supposed to be learning. she also homeschooled her kids I think she had three also through graduating. it actually met her in person. She came and did a workshop for the Waldorf Homeschoolers here in our area.
Della (50:35)
Nice.
That's
awesome, what a treat.
Tomika (50:51)
And
yeah, so that was really nice. she's very helpful to kind of getting that back end. it's interesting, with especially the Waldorf homeschooling that everybody wants to do what the Waldorf schools are doing. one of the philosophies of the Waldorf school is to make a school that's like home.
they're trying to imitate what you're doing and you're trying to imitate what they're doing. And it's just , you already have it at home. one thing I really appreciate Jean saying the very first Waldorf school when it was created, it was created after a war. Germany was completely decimated. The people coming in, they weren't even really teachers. They just had the concepts. playground was in the rubble,
this doesn't have to be perfect. the idea is not that you're following this curriculum that was written by some person decades ago, That the idea is that you're looking at the child in front of you and the world that you're in you're trying to
offer to them, what they need.
Della (51:48)
what they need,
what they need for the time, the place, and the development that they are at that time.
Tomika (51:56)
Right.
Right,
yes, it's not about , I'm gonna do exactly what they did at the first Waldorf school or with Charlotte Mason. We're gonna read all these old classics that people read in the early, the late 19th century, the early 20th century, no, we're gonna look at the child in front of us in the world around us and try to give the education that they need for who they are.
and where they live now.
Della (52:23)
That's actually beautiful.
let's go back to science and talk about the Charlotte Mason style living books for science that you were talking about. There are so many available now.
Tomika (52:36)
There are
so many. So in the very early years, elementary school years, we started with a lot of picture books. There are so many great science-focused picture books. first and second grade were a lot of being outside too.
being out in nature observing what is happening. You could really learn a lot that way. when I was in undergrad, I did a summer research experience at Clemson University. woman who I was doing research under was a educator, her research was in science education. she was trying to write a
first year chemistry curriculum for non-science majors that was almost completely based about water going outside, the pH of water, how does water freeze, how does water melt, that kind of stuck in my head , you could just learn so much science just from observing the world around you.
Della (53:28)
Right.
There's also citizen science that you can participate in. There's so many of them, the Monarch Tagging, the Audubon. bird count. we participated one that was taking counts of different
tadpole species in ephemeral ponds. That was a lot of fun. Yeah.
Tomika (53:46)
Nice.
Right. We've done the backyard bird count, we try to make use especially in the younger years of all the places that are around us. we're here by Niagara Falls, and, there's lots of tours going on and, we have a local science museum.
Our science Museum has a partnership they also have area, that's somewhere else that they host tours, walking tours. we learn so much just learning, observing the seasons, your phonology will.
Della (54:19)
Right.
Tomika (54:20)
seeing the changes of what's happening around us. then as we got into middle school, we started reading popular science books. storm in a teacup for physics, right? Or disappearing spoons, , yeah, what's the one that's,
Della (54:31)
and disappearing spoon, genie and bottle.
Tomika (54:39)
The Neil deGrasse Tyson book. Astrophysics. We read the young people's one, the Astrophysics for Young People book.
Della (54:46)
Joy
Hakim has a wonderful series that's at middle school. Yes. And she, she really has a beautiful narrative style of writing. It is talked full of information. Ironically, it covers chemistry, mathematics, physics. It covers the physical sciences. There's nothing in it about the biological sciences.
Tomika (54:50)
the story of science. that? Yeah.
Right.
Right, and not, not, right.
We tried Song of the Cell.
Della (55:13)
I haven't heard of that one, was it good?
Tomika (55:15)
Yeah, it was good. It was thick; definitely for high schoolers. I don't have a young people's version of that yet. Yeah, no, you know what's really interesting? We haven't done a lot.
living science books for biology. A lot. Yeah, go ahead.
Della (55:29)
young has,
I don't remember the title, but I will definitely put it in the podcast notes, but it's a new book on animals and the senses that is fascinating. It is absolutely fascinating. Definitely adult high school level, but a wonderful book.
Tomika (55:40)
Okay.
Right.
the Storm in the Teacup that we read, That was written for the audience intended to be adults. The Disappearing Spoon, they have a young reader's edition. read one called Furry Logic. it was okay. But that one was fascinating because it was about how animals use physics.
Della (56:07)
interesting. We read another adult book that was a living book called What the Robin Knows and it was written by a tracker, which was fascinating. he was saying what you can deduce around you by watching the birds. Also, another biological one was The Hidden Life of Trees I will never feel the same way about plants again.
Tomika (56:08)
Yeah.
Right.
yes. Right.
my daughter read Braiding Seatgrass, the young. Yeah, so guess that's not true that we didn't have biological sizes, but yeah. Right.
Della (56:34)
Yeah, that's an excellent one.
that's an excellent one as well. So
and I just want to say this doesn't take the place of formal science education, this is in addition to
Tomika (56:47)
No,
in addition to, something that I've noticed in the homeschool community is a lot of the moms have a subject that's their special interest my friends who are very into history, or some of them,
Della (56:57)
Mm-hmm.
Tomika (57:04)
don't use a formal curricula. they have NPR always playing in the background in their house. they just constantly talk history. for our middle school I didn't use a lot of formal curricula with the exception of the ACS, American Chemical Society's middle school chemistry. I love that one.
Della (57:20)
Yes, I
Tomika (57:21)
we did in some ways use the living books and then go back either a textbook or an online resource to read about the concept more in depth. that was the time we start using more YouTube videos.
because for instance, in furry logic, author would actually reference that were done in academia and we could go look them up and then there would be videos those researchers or something related. And he'd be , oh, okay, I read what this was in the book and, we learned about the concept and then
there it is those are those those are the people and this is their seeing how their research is actually set up
Della (58:02)
we do the same thing for the biological sciences. I don't really need a textbook. I love building foundations and scientific knowledge. It is heavy for the teacher-parent.
Tomika (58:06)
Right. Right.
Della (58:15)
you have to read pages and do preparation and various things is not easy. There is a science curricula based on that. I don't know what it is, but people will ask me what science curricula did you use? I don't need a science curricula. I do have a couple guides. We also did the same thing for chemistry. So I'm currently working on the, I had you check some of the chemistry for me.
Tomika (58:30)
Right? Right.
Right. Right.
Della (58:40)
and I have a botany guide and a tree guide, but yeah, we have also pulled from various sources and created our own science.
Tomika (58:49)
Right. Right. Yeah.
Whereas , you know, when I ask my friends who are authors, who are writers, what are you guys doing for English? They're , I mean, we read books and my kids write, you know, so it's pretty.
Della (59:04)
Right. And I'm confident
at English, but I would never rely on my own sources for English. I'm exactly, I've got to have something.
Tomika (59:08)
Right. Yes, but I wouldn't exactly. Right. So I'm , no, I need something that's a little more.
for science, we do kind of for the middle school age, we did kind of do it a little more flowy. because of both my husband and I are scientists, you know, our house.
Della (59:25)
Right. Same here.
Tomika (59:27)
Our house is full of science textbooks. We kind of gravitate to that naturally. My kids got science magazines. It's always funny because my husband will be explaining some concept to my children. And they'll be , oh yeah, and come
back to him with their knowledge and he's wait, where'd you learn? Did mommy teach you that? Like, where'd you learn that? They're no, I read that in a magazine.
Della (59:52)
What has been your greatest challenge in homeschooling?
Tomika (59:56)
I mean, honestly, I think my greatest challenge would just be confident in what I'm I have a bad habit of looking what it's next. what else is happening out there? just feeling with the world, what's happening out in the world now, we're in this.
putting the political stuff aside, AI is coming, universities are not being funded. It's just wait, is what am I doing for homeschooling? Like, is this going to be enough for the way that the world is changing? I would say that probably actually is my greatest challenge is
feeling confident in what I'm doing.
Della (1:00:32)
Yeah, that's
a good sign of a homeschooler. It shows their investment in their children's community and the insightfulness and reflection that you really need to have a good education. And also, I feel like it's a common universal experience.
Tomika (1:00:39)
Mm-hmm.
Yes. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, it's all on us. when your child is going through school, you could say they didn't have a really good teacher that year. so they're they're missing out,
No, that was me. Yeah, that was me that year. I mean, I try to keep in mind, I said, because I was a military brat, I definitely had holes in my education growing up. I mean, that's just because, I graduated from a school in Virginia. I never had Virginia State history. because I was not in school when I did not live in that state when when that happened and
not always going from different schools, they don't always line up with what they're teaching. do try to keep in mind one, , hey, you went to public schools and private schools, and had holes in your education. there's no possible way you're going to graduate a kid anywhere, K through 12, that's going to know all the things be a hundred percent
Della (1:01:24)
Right.
Tomika (1:01:42)
ready for There's always going to be something that they're going to need to learn. so I do try to keep that in mind. And then my husband always tries to tell me, yes, they're doing fine.
Della (1:01:53)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, there definitely
is always going to be gaps, always. And not that we shouldn't have some kind of standard, not that we shouldn't try to meet that standard, that there's always going to be gaps.
Tomika (1:01:58)
Great.
Right. Right.
Right but it's I know there's gonna be gaps. Yes and you said that we shouldn't lower standards because of that but also maybe that can give me a little
allow me to not stress too much about it. yeah. Right.
Della (1:02:19)
It gives you a little grace. Yeah. And well,
the other thing that I want people to know is that as you're going along, a lot of the times when you hit a block and you see a gap, that's your opportunity to fill it. you will have opportunity to fill a lot of gaps. And I think everybody comes out of their education thinking that
Tomika (1:02:36)
bright bright bright
Della (1:02:45)
there are gaps.
Tomika (1:02:46)
it's funny because even just for parenting, I always keep in mind, we're here on our own because my family and my husband's family, they live in a different state or different country. so I do.
tell my children, I tell my oldest, even just as a person, you're being raised mostly by two people. Two people can't possibly fulfill all the needs of one child. As a human species, we were to be in a much larger village. And even
They do have adults around them help a little bit with that. It's not the same if we were in that village. That community, a more community type experience. And I have to think about the same with their education. There's no possible way that
Della (1:03:28)
the community, right?
Tomika (1:03:39)
just me or even my husband and the little classes that we're outsourcing here and there. There's no way even those things are gonna give them every single possible thing that they could learn or need. And, but hopefully love learning and they do and they know how to learn. So when they see the gaps themselves,
Della (1:03:51)
Right?
Tomika (1:04:00)
know how to go look for resources to fill those in.
Della (1:04:05)
It's really important to not only teach children, but to facilitate them knowing how to teach themselves how to learn. And hopefully we're all raising lifelong learners.
Tomika (1:04:18)
Yes.
Della (1:04:19)
Okay, last question for today. What most surprised you about homeschooling?
Tomika (1:04:25)
I think maybe for me it was how much there is available my community or region that could help aid in homeschooling. There's just so much available that you could really never be home.
There's so many people who are willing to help. I don't know if that's partially something that has developed after the pandemic. But there's so many people who are supportive of homeschooling in a way that I wasn't really expecting. who are willing to help out and sometimes you get paid,
and people who are really excited to see us, to see the homeschoolers coming you want to learn about place that I work? to learn what I do? Sure, come I would I don't really get a lot of negative feedback. And I think maybe I thought it was…
gonna be a little more, taboo or whatever to be over homeschoolers. But people are just , oh yeah, that makes sense. Good for you.
Della (1:05:24)
Yeah, I think in this day and age, the real challenge is not what it was in several generations back for homeschooling. Several generations back, there were only a few things available. You were criticized if you were out and about during school hours or at least questioned, and they really clung close together. Now, the challenge is there is an
Tomika (1:05:44)
Thank you.
Mm hmm.
Della (1:05:51)
overwhelming amount available to homeschoolers, overwhelming amount of curricular choices, resource choices, programs, classes, after school activities, or extracurricular activities. you can't do it all. You just cannot. And so you really have to guard your time for academics, particularly in the middle school, high school times. And
Tomika (1:05:54)
Yes, it is.
No. Right. Yes.
years.
Della (1:06:18)
You have to pick and choose. You can possibly do things seasonally, we'll do horseback riding in the fall when it's not really hot in the summer, and we'll do music lessons in the summer when it's really… You can pick and choose and do things seasonally, but you just simply can't do it all at the same time.
Tomika (1:06:20)
Right.
Thank
No,
I think especially, you said, as the kids get older, time to really start focusing on what, at least for us, that's how we approach this. It's , it's time to start focusing on what you need for the next step. Like we do still want you to enjoy your education, but also…
Like we may not have time for all the extracurriculars if you're taking a really hard dual enrollment class this semester, then also starting to think about what are ways that you can get experiences in the things that you want to be doing for college or as a career after college.
Della (1:07:14)
Let's
talk about that for just a second. There is a great book, Jake Boles believe, I think the title is College Without High School, but I could have that wrong. But it is basically talking about facilitating the same kind of theme that we did in our early years with education, but doing so in a way that preps us for
college or trade or whatever your next step is. And you're talking about experience in different fields. I want people to know what opportunities are available.
Tomika (1:07:43)
Right.
I can only really talk about what is, one is here and two, what my kids are interested in. my oldest, she has really loved art and she loves thinking about public transportation and urban planning So maybe the
thing that makes the most sense is to do art classes outside of our homeschool which she does. And then through that we were able to have her join an art program where she gets to not only take classes but they also bring in local artists to give workshops the
kids who are in that program, workshops on their art. They also coordinated their own art show. They put together a panel having artists who work in the health industry. people who do medical illustration, things like that come in and have a panel to discuss with kids who are interested in
place where art and science meet as a career. So there's some of these opportunities that are all already set out there. Also we have
organizations that do tours around the city. she's also looking at maybe volunteering to do one of these architecture history tours for her, at her age, she's not going to be giving the tour, volunteering in some capacity. Our local university has summer we've applied to those. We'll see if that comes through for the summer.
where she would get to actually work with architects at the university and then also learn about architecture of the city. And then for my middle schooler, feel because science is where my husband and I, that was our careers we have a much better handle on that. So for my…
Middle schooler, know that he can do research at the local university. we just have to find a professor who does research in an area that he's interested in who would be to take them on. And then our local university has tons of outreach to try to get sciences and engineering out into the community. He does a robotics program that is
located at the university. as we go, being curious, , what's out there? So for my daughter, that was a little bit more out of my wheelhouse, luckily we have the Internet and I could just look for my city name and subjects of things that she's interested in and kind of
keeping updated on what's happening in my city. So for instance, there's going to be an urban planning, conference, talks open up to the community We can go there and then we learn about what people are doing around us, what opportunities there are to volunteer.
if there is some political activism that's happening related to what she wants to do, we can work with this group, and volunteer. then same for my son, was going to engineering. I just try to keep updated on what's going on around me. then it becomes easier to find opportunities.
as you start just going to things and find out who's doing what around you. And most people are really very excited to see young people interested in what they're doing. So if they can't necessarily bring your child on to what they're doing, they most likely know somebody who could they who they could point you to. this person who has
program that your child can start getting into or this person might be open to having your kid come do research with them.
Della (1:11:26)
We did a very similar thing with my son whose interest was photography, as you know, and we tapped in in similar ways. joined wildlife photography or nature photography groups and I set up sessions for him to shoot with different.
Tomika (1:11:32)
Mm-hmm.
No.
Della (1:11:44)
nature photographers in our area. They were happy to have a young person that was interested in photography go with them. That opened up other opportunities. I took him to photographic workshops and in the end we have filmed with some amazing photographers because of that. David Moynahan who has work in the Smithsonian
Tomika (1:11:50)
Great.
mean, you know.
Della (1:12:10)
John Spore, who is famous for Florida, and another one, John Moran, that did the Springs photography. also worked with David and even a National Geographic photographer, Joel Satori, had come down locally to our aquarium for his photo arc and my son spent two days.
volunteering and shooting with him, which is interesting because one of the resources that I used for his photography education was from the great courses and it was all Joel Sartori's lecture. And when I said he's watched every single one of your lectures, he was like, really? They're so boring. He watched all of them. I was over and over again. He's watched your lectures and
Tomika (1:12:47)
No.
huh.
Yeah.
Della (1:13:03)
I think the idea is to do what you're talking about, put your foot in, join groups, look for opportunities in doing so. Photography is a really expensive hobby. The good cameras, the DSLRs are well out of my price range. what we did to facilitate that is that our area has a large artist.
Tomika (1:13:17)
Yeah.
Thank you.
Della (1:13:29)
venue each year of arts and crafts people craftsman people and they have a children's tent available and so he would sell his photography to pay for better photography equipment and that's how we funded it. For my daughter it's the same thing when she was young I told you she was really interested in animals.
Tomika (1:13:31)
Thank
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
this week.
Della (1:13:54)
And I knew we had to direct that energy when one time she brought me a baby squirrel that she had climbed up into a tree to see the squirrel nest and found a baby squirrel and brought me a baby squirrel. And I was , go put it back in the nest. And we need to do something. We need to direct this energy. And so we found.
Tomika (1:14:06)
no!
Right. Right.
Della (1:14:19)
a local wildlife rehabilitation center that she was eight when that happened that initially we went together one day a week and volunteered for an hour at that facility. The facility owner and her daughter really made a connection and that's a beautiful thing about homeschooling the community connections and now she
Tomika (1:14:23)
Mm-hmm.
you
Della (1:14:43)
volunteers three hours, two days a week, and it's a drop-off pickup situation. And she has learned so much from that experience.
Tomika (1:14:51)
Mm-hmm.
Nice.
Della (1:14:53)
Yeah.
Tomika (1:14:54)
Yeah.
Della (1:14:54)
We
did cover a lot, but it was really nice.
Tomika (1:14:59)
Yes, I agree.
Della (1:15:02)
Well,
so much for joining me today, Tomika, I really enjoyed our conversation. Is there any place that you are online that people can find you?
Tomika (1:15:06)
I enjoyed it too.
Yeah, people can find me on Instagram at TamikaRCV and just know that I'm not there very often. trying to break up with Metta, but I do try to check in every now and again.
Della (1:15:23)
Okay, I'll
put those in the podcast show notes and thank you.
Tomika (1:15:27)
That's all. Nice. Thank you.
and where they live
Jess (02:07)
I would say what most surprised me was…
how little you are home when homeschooling.
Della (02:17)
Join us on May 18th for season one of A Homeschooling Journey.
