What do we do in those situations where we have to pitch? Blair simplifies some important principles from his books into a sequence of four precepts we can follow when the sales process doesn't progress like we'd hoped.

"The Only New Business Indicator That Matters" 2Bobs episode

"Assume an Advantaged Player" 2Bobs episode

"Slapping Down Your Childlike Glee" 2Bobs episode

If/when you sell your firm, it'll likely be the largest transaction of your life, and so it makes sense to understand it! In this episode David gives a crash course in everything earnouts.

LINKS

"Understanding Earnouts" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

Instead of beginning the relationship with a prospective client by presenting a deck on why your agency is so amazing and why you should be invited to pitch, Blair encourages us to have the "Probative Conversation" from his Four Conversations sales model.

LINKS

"There Is No Credentials Meeting" article by Blair Enns for WinWithoutPitching.com

"The Four Conversations: A New Model for Selling Expertise" 2Bobs episode

The Four Conversations: A New Model for Selling Expertise book by Blair Enns

Blair has David expand on his recent article titled "You're A Dictatorship That Gathers Individual Democracies—Good For You."

Blair tears down seven common sales advice statements that B2B creative firms should actually avoid following in their new business engagements.

See the episode notes, links, and transcript

Blair provides some modeling language in a sales context. While using scripts for a sales conversation is not advised, there are some "set piece" phrases that are handy to have at the ready.

If you ever need to go to war over not being paid, David has some bombs you can lob over your enemy's front lines.

Blair interviews David on why dropping a client is sometimes necessary and how to best approach letting them go.

Where did the new client come from? Who gets credit? Should the new business person be involved in growing existing accounts? How should they, and/or the account people be compensated? Blair addresses all of these sales attribution questions.

You don't need a degree or license or permission to write a book. David and Blair share the steps they took and what they have learned from the writing process.

If you think you might have a book in you but aren't sure writing and publishing your own book as an entrepreneur is worth the effort, this episode is for you.

David has eight questions he wants agency principals to ask themselves before hiring him to help add a new partner.

When it comes to positioning, David is still seeing creative firms failing to answer three essential questions in the proper sequence: category, specialization, and then secondary differentiators (or qualifying characteristics).

Blair interviews David on his recent article in which he was very open and honest about his struggles with depression and anxiety.

LINKS

"I Struggle With Mental Health. Maybe You Do Too."

mentally-healthy.org

Mentally Healthy 2020 Results

For the last time—ever—David and Blair discuss client-side marketing departments, their struggle to be entrepreneurial and what we can learn from them.

Blair combines a few of the deeper topics he and David have already covered to provide a larger view of the overall pricing journey he recommends creative firms take.

In-house creative departments aren't going anywhere, so David wants agencies to be mindful of the unique value they bring to the projects for which their clients still need them.

David asks Blair some awkward questions to get inside his head about his successful book, The Win Without Pitching Manifesto.

Most of us haven't sold one firm that we've owned, and those principals who have formerly sold their firm aren't always...ahem...telling the truth.

In a nod to the Walt Whitman line, Blair believes successful sales people - as well as agency principals - often need to present themselves as different personalities in different situations. And David believes sales trainers are actually therapists.

As we've seen independent creative marketing and digital firms experience rapid growth over this past year, David offers five factors that principals should consider in order to avoid growing for the wrong reasons and/or mismanaging that growth.

Having a problem with either hearing or saying "no" can lead to problems for your business. Blair has 12 statements about the word "no" that can help.

When people from other industries learn about what goes on inside your firm, are they awe-struck in a good or bad way? Blair and David come up with a list of things that are unique to the creative firm biz and how they've seen outsiders react to them.

Blair sees high price anchors everywhere—from buying a suit to ordering a burger. So what factors should creative firms keep in mind as they use anchoring in selling their service options? And when is the best time to present the anchor option within the sales conversation?

"Anchor High" by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com

Blair shares an overview of all the communication tools creative firms should be using throughout the sales process.

David and Blair discuss what the four performance bands are, eleven critical factors that keep firms stuck at the lower performance bands, and what firms can do to move into a higher band.

David is in a cynical mood and takes turns with Blair sharing clichés they hear their clients use to describe their business.

Blair stops to think about what "agency" actually means, and if it's the right term to describe firms in the creative services space.

David lists eight truths about money that he's identified in his efforts to help entrepreneurs make better business decisions.

Blair addresses the internal struggle for margin that happens in many firms between delivery teams and business development teams due to their lack of distinction between cost and price.

David wants entrepreneurs to live with tension in various aspects of their business, using it to their advantage in making important decisions instead of just worrying about resolving the tension itself.

Blair offers some ways to help prevent over-excited new business people and principals from giving away the shop and appearing unprofessional.

David draws a picture for Blair about the implications of this statement he hears almost all of his clients and prospects say about being able to close new business.

Blair shares the tradeoffs creative firms have to deal with when pursuing firms of a particular size, and David gets Blair riled up again about procurement.

Following up on the recent episode on whether you should be considering that offer to sell your firm, David provides four questions to get answered, two documents to sign, and a short list of materials that can help you take the lead in early conversations with a buyer.

LINKS

"Should You Entertain That Acquisition Offer?"

As agencies are trading their big city offices for working at home during the pandemic, Blair wants to know if David thinks he should get into real estate.

David thinks firms have too many meetings and offers some solutions, and Blair pushes back.

David torches Blair's highfalutin notions of timekeeping and offers four instances when timekeeping can actually be used without polluting your pricing.

David articulates five fears that tend to shape management style and impact decisions principals make for their firms.

In part two of their specialization conversation, David and Blair address six arguments they have heard from certain clients who toyed with the idea of broader positioning for their firms.

David and Blair have experienced a backlash against experts, expertise, and specialization thanks to David Epstein's book, and they disagree on whether or not it's worth reading.

Blair and David discuss three tiers of inbound and outbound marketing that firms should be using for new business development.

David and Blair address a listener request to go over the challenges that principals often go through once they decide to reposition their firm.

Blair wonders if he's made an error in his efforts to prevent agencies from going into presentation mode during the sales process.

Blair predicts when we are through the COVID-19 pandemic and business is approaching normal (whatever that means), agency principals will look back with some regrets about the things they did not do, rather than the things they did.

LINKS

"Four Regrets You're About to Have" by Blair Enns

"Play the Game of Constraints" by Blair Enns

The more unexpected the metaphor, the more information it carries. Blair has four less-obvious metaphors to give you access to entire playbooks in just four words when selling your expertise.

LINKS

"The Power of a Metaphor" written by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com

Blair and David, as two white business leaders, try talking about the traumatic and emotional yet very necessary changes happening now to end systemic racism. As they listen and allow space for the voices of diversity that need to be heard, they also struggle with when to speak up as examples, owning up to their mistakes which will hopefully help lead the way for real change.

"How I'm Trying to Process Things Right Now" by David C. Baker

"Speech and Systems" - episode 186 of Exponent podcast

A Statement from the Founders of Monday Night Brewing

David is frequently surprised by how many new business people have trouble answering five particular important questions about their jobs and their firms.

Blair gets David to share a part of his upcoming book about how all client relationships have a cycle of love-hate-love that we have to be prepared for and push through.