Every few years we’re told that we need to move on from using email newsletters as a part of our marketing platform. And David says that advice has always been wrong.

David’s article on Punctuation.com (subscribe to his newsletter at the bottom of the page)

“Email is the Most Consistent, Reliable Marketing Channel on the Web and I Can Prove It” by Rand Fishkin

David provides some clear examples of what is required for a firm to be successful at offering one service for many different verticals.

“Strengthening a Weak Horizontal Positioning” by David C. Baker on punctuation.com

The fact that sales people tend to talk too much is nothing new, but Blair has observed in recent client work just how profound of an effect this pervasive problem has on sales outcomes.

“How and When to Talk About Your Firm”

“Replacing Presentations With Conversations”

David thinks firms have too many meetings and offers some solutions, and Blair pushes back.

David torches Blair's highfalutin notions of timekeeping and offers four instances when timekeeping can actually be used without polluting your pricing.

David articulates five fears that tend to shape management style and impact decisions principals make for their firms.

In part two of their specialization conversation, David and Blair address six arguments they have heard from certain clients who toyed with the idea of broader positioning for their firms.

David and Blair have experienced a backlash against experts, expertise, and specialization thanks to David Epstein's book, and they disagree on whether or not it's worth reading.

Blair and David discuss three tiers of inbound and outbound marketing that firms should be using for new business development.

David and Blair address a listener request to go over the challenges that principals often go through once they decide to reposition their firm.

Blair wonders if he's made an error in his efforts to prevent agencies from going into presentation mode during the sales process.

Blair predicts when we are through the COVID-19 pandemic and business is approaching normal (whatever that means), agency principals will look back with some regrets about the things they did not do, rather than the things they did.

LINKS

"Four Regrets You’re About to Have" by Blair Enns

"Play the Game of Constraints" by Blair Enns

Blair and David, as two white business leaders, try talking about the traumatic and emotional yet very necessary changes happening now to end systemic racism. As they listen and allow space for the voices of diversity that need to be heard, they also struggle with when to speak up as examples, owning up to their mistakes which will hopefully help lead the way for real change.

“How I’m Trying to Process Things Right Now” by David C. Baker

“Speech and Systems” - episode 186 of Exponent podcast

A Statement from the Founders of Monday Night Brewing

When it comes to qualifications for ideal clients, David doesn’t hear anyone talking about how agencies can benefit when the person across the table is someone who presses boundaries and ethically skirts the rules within their own organization.

David is frequently surprised by how many new business people have trouble answering five particular important questions about their jobs and their firms.

Blair gets David to share a part of his upcoming book about how all client relationships have a cycle of love-hate-love that we have to be prepared for and push through.

David expects to get in trouble discussing Blair's topic about the role of friendship in business—between sales people and prospects, account people and clients, and principals and employees.

David and Blair try to predict the future about what principals of creative firms can expect in their relationships with clients as the COVID-19 pandemic continues to impact business.

Blair and David address five common questions they have heard from creative entrepreneurs as they both have been helping firms navigate the economic changes being caused by the COVID-19 pandemic.

Given where the economy is currently heading, David offers a framework that can help principals of creative firms make those tough staffing decisions in a timely and considerate manner.

David asks Blair to clarify his advice on offering proposal options and anchoring. Is it about more than just scope and price?

Implementing Value Pricing: A Radical Business Model for Professional Firms by Ronald Baker

The Strategy and Tactics of Pricing: A Guide to Growing More Profitably by Thomas T. Nagle and Georg Müller

Pricing with Confidence: 10 Ways to Stop Leaving Money on the Table by Reed Holden and Mark Burton

Negotiating with Backbone: Eight Sales Strategies to Defend Your Price and Value by Reed Holden

“6 Psychological Tactics Behind the Starbucks Menu” by Kent Hendricks

The Soul of Enterprise podcast, episode 233: “Pricing at Starbucks and Six Tactics You Should Know About”

Blair and David record a live episode at the Orpheum Theater in New Orleans for Bureau of Digital’s Owner Summit.

Thank you to Carl Smith and Lori Averitt at Bureau of Digital for hosting the live recording at the Owner Summit on February 7, 2020 in New Orleans. And thank you to the amazing staff at the Orpheum Theater for helping us with the production and staging!

David does all the heavy lifting for Blair in his recent article so they can finally discuss the overlap between Agile as a management method and pricing policy.

“Pros and Cons of Agile…in the Real World” by David C. Baker

2Bobs episode 78: “Phase Your Client Engagements”

Manifesto for Agile Software Development

“Agile is Dead (Long Live Agility)” by Dave Thomas

Blair wants firms to get paid to write their proposals, which is the first of his four phases of client engagement.

“Different Pricing Models” - 2Bobs episode 61

“A Beginner’s Guide to Negotiating” - 2Bobs episode 53

“Alternative Forms of Reassurance” - 2Bobs episode 46

Transcript

As Blair is finishing his new book that drops later this year, he comes to the realization that pretty much everything he does comes down to the fundamental issue that experts think they need to show up as a different person during the sale: pitching, persuading, and convincing instead of as the leader their prospective clients need them to be.

LINKS

"The Dichotomy of the Expert Salesperson" article by Blair Enns at WinWithoutPitching.com

"Ditch the (Sales) Script"

David keeps encountering clients who don’t appreciate how their account people actually contribute to their overall business, and Blair totally identifies with the traits that David describes.

2Bobs episode 44: “The Best Ways to Disrespect Account People”

1. Pull necessary data from the client, even when it’s tough to get their cooperation.
2. Sell recommendations back to them that are in their best interest.
3. Lead the client. (Interesting fact: “strategy” is latin for “general” in army who leads.)
4. Protect margins.
5. Grow the account.
6. Send the client to hell...and help them enjoy the trip (e.g., change orders).
7. Read social signals and intervene before catastrophe strikes.
8. Manage an account review, disputes, mistakes, etc.
9. Follow client contacts to their next job.
10. Keep ear to the ground as agency innovates client offerings.

• Goal is authority and prestige.
• Judges others by their ability to verbalize and be flexible.
• Overuses enthusiasm, selling ability, and optimism.
• Fears boxed in environment without room to grow.

Blair and David share their frustrations around some contracts that they have been asked to sign, making it clear why they are not attorneys.

This episode does not contain legal advice. Get a lawyer for that:

Sharon Toerek

Candice Kersh

Jeffrey Dermer

Michael Lasky

David keeps seeing principals who get someone else to run their firm, which is not a good idea. Then he gets Blair's thoughts on why he thinks it happens.

David C. Baker Seminar

Win Without Pitching Workshops with Blair Enns

Built to Sell: Creating a Business That Can Thrive Without You by John Warrillow

Entrepreneurial Operating System Traction Library

The Outsiders: Eight Unconventional CEOs and Their Radically Rational Blueprint for Success by William Thorndike

David and Blair lay out some of the reasons why they think, in most cases, agencies pursuing recurring revenue models are making a mistake.

“Why Monthly Recurring Revenue (MRR) Arrangements May Not Be Ideal” by David C. Baker

The End of Average: How We Succeed in a World That Values Sameness by Todd Rose

Pricing Creativity: A Guide to Profit Beyond the Billable Hour by Blair Enns

The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up: The Japanese Art of Decluttering and Organizing by Marie Kondō

“Unbundling the Corporation” by John Hagel III and Marc Singer for Harvard Business Review

David brings up one of Blair's favorite topics: how they keep themselves and their clients from being trapped by requests for proposal.

2Bobs episode 70, “The Only New Business Indicator That Matters”

Blair and David share what they have learned as they have recorded 2Bobs podcast episodes for almost 4 years - what has worked well, what has been challenging, and what they would recommend to those agency principals who might be considering their own podcast.

LINKS

The Soul of Enterprise Episode 15: “The Best Learning Method Ever Devised: After Action Reviews” with Ron Baker and Ed Kless

Build a Better Agency with Drew McClellan

EconTalk with Russell Roberts

Marcus dePaula, podcast producer and consultant

BLAIR'S PODCASTING SETUP

• Telefunken M82 dynamic XLR microphone
• Audient iD4 audio interface
• Rolls MS111 Mic Mute
• Senal SMH-1000 Professional Field and Studio Monitor Headphones
• Apple QuickTime Player app for AIFF audio recording using the Maximum quality setting
• Skype for the conversation (audio only)

DAVID'S PODCASTING SETUP

• Sennheiser HMDC 27 Professional Broadcast Headset with custom extension cable (so David can roam as he records)
• Audient iD4 audio interface
• Rolls MS111 Mic Mute
• Rogue Amoeba Audio Hijack for WAV audio recording of both David's mic and the Skype call (as a backup)
• Skype for the conversation (audio only)

MARCUS' EQUIPMENT RECOMMENDATIONS

MARCUS' REMOTE RECORDING INSTRUCTIONS USING CLEANFEED.NET

Blair and David consider the hundreds of firms they have each worked with over the years to identify the characteristics of highest performing firms and what they have seen agency principals do to succeed.

Blair shares some new data (at the time he and David recorded this discussion in January of 2016) that points to the one variable that can predict the likelihood of a prospect hiring your firm.

David wants to know if Blair thinks it's harder for creative firms to find great prospective clients, or great employees, as they unpack how to attract the right candidates using a “lead generation” plan.

• Social media presence
• Guest teach a single class at a known school that typically turns out a best student every semester
• Offer your facility as a meeting place for trade/association meetings
• Put a rotating art gallery with an open house when the display rotates
• Quarterly webinar for prospective employees on topics they would be fascinated with, including guests (or even a podcast)
• Skill-building workshops open to the community, bringing in expert teachers
• Build a model that depends on a steady rotation of contractors to test them out
• Keep a great relationship w/ employees who leave you—they are frequently your best people when they return after an interim education somewhere else

Blair is in the spotlight discussing some bad practices driven by assumptions he's seen his clients make over the past couple decades, a few of which are new to David.

10. Branding and Full Service Advertising are Specializations

9. The More You Have to Sell the More Likely a Sale

8. An Increase in Meetings Leads to an Increase in Sales

7. The Written Proposal is a Necessary Step in the Sales Process

6. Build Personal Relationships to Build Sales

5. Presentation Skills Training Leads to Improved Business Development Success

4. Chemistry Wins New Business

3. Selling is Persuading

2. It’s Everyone’s Job to Sell

1. You Have to Pitch (for Free) to Win a Creative Assignment

Original article by Blair Enns, “Top Ten New Business Development Myths”

The Challenger Sale by Neil Rackham

Contagious Culture: Show Up, Set the Tone, and Intentionally Create an Organization that Thrives by Anese Cavanaugh

While discussing eight ways creative firms can do pro bono work better based on an article David wrote recently, both he and Blair discover a couple new profound insights together.

“Maximizing Your Pro-Bono Contributions” by David C. Baker at Punctuation.com

Left-handed Mango Chutney

Blair interviews David about six employee archetypes which can end up being big hiring mistakes for creative firms.

Blair has another podcast therapy session about “good clients vs. bad clients,” as David tries to help him see procurement people as actual human beings who sometimes are just overwhelmed.

Blair has an aversion to the topic of personal branding, so David offers examples of why, when, and how the personal brands he’s seen principals develop can be either helpful or harmful for their firms.

LINKS

“Launch Your Career as a Podcast Guest” by David C. Baker

Episode 1 of Dexter Guff is Smarter Than You: “You Don’t Exist Without a Personal Brand”

The Visible Expert® by Hinge Marketing

“Personal Branding for Creative Professionals” course by Dorie Clark

Blair and David explore the differences they see between consultants and agencies in an effort to understand how the landscape is changing and what creative firms can do to beat consultants at their own game.

Links

The Business of Expertise: How Entrepreneurial Experts Convert Insight to Impact + Wealth by David C. Baker

Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life by Rory Sutherland

David admits to making a mistake, as Blair finishes his discussion from a couple episodes back on the eighth pricing model, which he claims “is the highest expression of entrepreneurship there is.”

2Bobs episode 61 - “Different Pricing Models”

Prohibition Gin and Toolbox Design

Cup & Leaf

“Unbundling the Corporation” by John Hagel III and Marc Singer for the Harvard Business Review

The Futur and Chris Do of Blind™

Conscious Minds

David and Blair address the obsession that many principals have with the size of firms, and the advantages of being either big or small.

Blair is struck by how creative businesses have trouble applying their creativity to their revenue models, so he and David discuss some of the best ways firms can get paid.

Subscribed: Why the Subscription Model Will Be Your Company's Future - and What to Do About It by Tien Tzuo

The Membership Economy: Find Your Super Users, Master the Forever Transaction, and Build Recurring Revenue by Robbie Kellman Baxter

The Automatic Customer: Creating a Subscription Business in Any Industry by John Warrillow

2Bobs Episode 31: “Mastering the Value Conversation”

2Bobs Episode 25: “Pricing Creativity”

Pricing Creativity: A Guide to Profit Beyond the Billable Hour by Blair Enns

David and Blair each share their own perspectives on how chasing comfort has kept them and their clients making the right decisions in both management and sales situations.

LINKS

2Bobs Episode 2: Say What You Think

The Challenger Sale: Taking Control of the Customer Conversation by Matthew Dixon

Blair wants creative firms to quit viewing in-house resources as the enemy and demonstrates how the arrangements between the two can be mutually beneficial.

2Bobs Episode 2: Say What You Think

2Bobs Episode 57: There are NOT Seven Reasons Why Clients Hire You

David and Blair each share a list of things that they wish agency principals would do more of to take their firms to the next level of success.

Links

"The Problem of Standards" by David Maister 2001

Blair recognizes how a Confucius quote is really bad business advice, but is still moved by how a highly principled creative firm in New Zealand continues to thrive by prioritizing their creative practices and client fit over new business strategy.

LINKS

"Attending the Way" article by Blair on WinWithoutPitching.com

AltGroup.net

Blair and David work on clarifying things by coming up with only six reasons why businesses hire creative firms.

Blair and David share the places they find good ideas that they turn into content, the best of which end up being incorporated into their services.

Read the transcript ➝

David finds Blair's thoughts fascinating on how far agencies should service or pursue clients geographically, and whether or not the location of a firm should be a factor.