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In this latest episode of Thriving in the Messy Middle, leadership coach Amy P Wilkins chats with Adrienne Valencia Garcia, a lawyer turned transformational career coach. The conversation unfolds with Adrienne sharing her intriguing transition story from practicing litigation law to empowering executives through coaching. They explore what it means to navigate and thrive through uncertain times, especially in unique career landscapes.

Adrienne dives deeper into her transformative experiences, such as confronting a career misalignment two decades ago and her recent pivot when her role was eliminated unexpectedly. Through her narrative, listeners gain insight into the essence of resilience, adaptability, and leveraging one's network for growth. This episode sheds light on finding clarity amidst chaos and the importance of personal development, emphasizing how letting go and allowing oneself to grieve occupational shifts can build a bridge to exciting and fulfilling opportunities.

• Resilience and adaptability are crucial in navigating career transitions, even when faced with unexpected challenges.
• Networking can be a powerful, transformative tool, both professionally and personally, when approached with a mindset of mutual benefit.
• Having a support system of trusted individuals aids in processing and overcoming career setbacks.
• Allowing oneself time to grieve transitions and losses in career paths is a vital part of moving forward.
• Investing in self-development and being open to pivot in career directions can unlock unforeseen paths and opportunities.

What I took from it was that I could accomplish things, do the hard things, and that failure didn't define me.
No matter who you are or what your journey is, finding your people with whom you can be yourself is crucial.
There needs to be space to grieve the loss because it's a loss—suddenly, the people I was seeing pretty much every day were gone.
Invest in yourself, money, time, and resources as often as you can, as early as you can, and repeat.
Find the people where you can really just take that filter off, remove it, and just be yourself in a judgment-free zone where they're going to be there to cheer you on.

Mentioned in this Episode
Adam Grant website
Adam Grant: How to stop languishing and start finding flow | TED

Adrienne Valencia Garcia is a first-generation Latina attorney, certified personal and executive coach, and passionate advocate for helping high achievers redefine success on their own terms. With nearly 30 years of experience in the law spanning litigation, transactional work, and in-house leadership, she is starting a new role as Vice President and Deputy General Counsel at a global provider of telephone number and identity information services. Over the course of her career, she's led high-impact legal teams, advised Fortune 50 companies, negotiated complex deals, and guided organizations through significant growth and transformation.

Adrienne's story isn't just about career milestones; it's about navigating the messy middle between achievement and alignment. After spending decades chasing perfection and external validation, she realized that checking every box on paper didn't guarantee fulfillment. That realization led her to take a bold leap into coaching, where she focuses on helping others break free from overachievement, overthinking, and the pressure always to have it all figured out.

When she's not coaching or leading legal teams, you can find her cheering on her high school senior daughter or exploring her hometown of New York City, daily reminders that success is about how fully you live both inside and outside the office.

To learn more about Adrienne's coaching work and speaking engagements, visit www.coachwithadrienne.com

Adrienne Valencia Garcia LinkedIn Profile

In this Messy Middle Moment episode of Thriving in the Messy Middle, host Amy P Wilkins dives into the intricate subject of navigating the turbulent periods of growth and uncertainty often encountered by women leaders. Amy shares personal experiences and insights into stepping into roles and responsibilities that feel larger than life, balancing the pressures of visibility, and the internal battles of self-doubt and belonging.

Amy explores the concept of 'messy' as an integral part of growth and leadership development. She emphasizes how these seemingly chaotic times are not indicators of failure but rather signals of imminent expansion and evolution. This episode is a journey into understanding that discomfort often precedes breakthroughs. Amy encourages listeners to reframe their mindset, turning chaos into opportunities for growth. Through real-life conversations, like the one Amy had with Meb Francisco, she illuminates how navigating through life's arid deserts of uncertainty with self-trust and awareness can ultimately lead to substantial personal and professional growth. By recognizing and embracing the "messy middle," listeners can learn to trust the process and expand their capacity for future challenges. 

• The feeling of stepping into something bigger can lead to self-doubt, but often indicates growth.
• Recognizing 'messy' moments as a signal of expansion helps transform discomfort into opportunity.
• Experiences in overcoming challenges build capacity for future challenges, reducing the time spent in self-doubt.
• Trusting in the process and embracing messiness can lead to growth into larger roles and responsibilities.
• Self-awareness and accepting chaos as part of leadership growth are crucial for thriving in uncertain times.

Thriving isn't about having it all figured out. It's about learning how to grow, lead, and move forward, even when things feel messy.
This feeling is not a sign that you're not capable. It's a signal that you've stepped into something that's inviting you to grow.
You stop seeing it as something to avoid, and you start to see it as something that's leading you somewhere.
The messy middle isn't something we pass through once. It shows up again and again.
This is what it feels like when I'm stretching or when I'm in something that matters.
There's growth and expansion, a stronger, more capable version of you. And that changes your relationship with "messy". 

Podcast Related to this Episode
Thriving in the Messy Middle E19 featuring Guest Meb Francisco: Even the Best Leaders Feel Overwhelmed in New Roles

Amy P Wilkins is a leadership coach, former media executive, and the founder of Choose Awe—a coaching practice devoted to helping women leaders navigate transitions with clarity, courage, and self-trust. After decades in senior leadership roles, Amy now empowers women to lead with purpose and thrive through the "messy middle" seasons of life and leadership.

Schedule an Exploration Call HERE

Read The Messy Middle Blog HERE

Join Amy P Wilkins on Thriving in the Messy Middle as she shares insights on the pressures that come with leadership roles when we find ourselves in the "messy middle" of our careers and lives. This state is typified by transitions, challenges, and complexities that can often lead to confusion and self-doubt. Many individuals report feeling "off" or lost in their roles, yet often struggle to name these sensations explicitly. Most people aren't lacking motivation or capability. They are lacking language. This observation highlights the importance of naming one's experiences without self-judgment, enabling a more accurate understanding of one's current state. By developing this language, leaders can resist the urge to rush through transitions and acknowledge what Amy describes as the Messy Middle Archetype™.

Drawing from her own experiences and those of her clients, Amy introduces the Messy Middle Archetype™ as a framework for naming these seasons of uncertainty and change. Amy guides listeners to recognize where they stand, encouraging identification and fostering self-compassion. She explores six archetypes women often experience: Juggler, Restless Achiever, Quietly Burning Out, Dreamer, Rising Leader, and Seeker. Each archetype represents a unique stage of growth or challenge, offering opportunities for personal reflection and development. Tune into this thought-provoking episode to discover how naming your archetypes provides a burst of clarity and inspiration in your leadership journey and leads to meaningful action. 

• Understanding your Messy Middle Archetype™ can bring clarity, fostering self-compassion as you navigate life's transitions.
• Whether you are a Juggler, Restless Achiever, or another archetype, recognizing and naming your experience can provide insight into your leadership journey.
• Language matters: Developing a language to express where leaders find themselves can help eliminate judgment.
• Energy focus over intensity: Emphasizing steadiness, presence, and self-trust can empower leaders to make meaningful and sustainable changes in their roles.

Thriving isn't about perfection. It's about growth.
You may recognize yourself in one archetype. You may hear pieces of yourself in several. You may move between them over time.
What would happen if I stopped doing something? And why do I believe I can't? - On the Juggler archetype
Confidence doesn't automatically arrive with the title.- On the Rising Leader archetype
The Seeker's work is awareness and willingness.- On the Seeker archetype
Each archetype offers an invitation to AWE, awareness of where you are, and willingness to honor what's true without the story we add to it.

Join leadership coach Amy Wilkins in this Messy Middle Moment episode, as she delves into the often daunting topic of personal branding. She emphasizes the importance of establishing a personal brand well before it becomes a necessity and how this can be a powerful tool in professional growth, even when navigating the uncertain terrains of career transitions. Drawing from conversations and experiences, Amy provides actionable insights on maintaining visibility and building credibility.

Amy highlights the significance of platforms like LinkedIn in showcasing leadership and professional presence. Drawing from last week's conversation with Melissa Cohen, who recast her perspective on LinkedIn usage, the episode underscores the transition from treating it as a digital resume to a dynamic storytelling space. Amy also breaks down statistics that reveal the effectiveness of consistent posting in increasing engagement and visibility. Amy emphasizes showing up with authenticity, investing in your future self, and owning your narrative. Embrace the discomfort and build your brand with intention and courage. Keep thriving through life's transitions with these empowering insights.

• Start Before It's Needed: Amy emphasizes the importance of building a personal brand before it becomes an urgent necessity.
• Consistency is Key: Regular and intentional engagement on platforms like LinkedIn can greatly enhance professional visibility.
• Overcome Self-Doubt: Embrace the discomfort of posting content consistently, as it leads to greater opportunities and network presence.
• Visibility Equals Leadership: Being visible is an act of leadership, not vanity; it's about sharing your voice with authenticity.
• Invest in Future You: Cultivating a personal brand is an investment in your future professional self, building credibility and leadership presence for when the time is right.

The best time to build your brand is before you need it.
LinkedIn users who post at least once a week for 20 plus weeks receive five times more engagement per post.
Visibility is leadership and not vanity.
You're not late, you're not behind, and you don't need to be polished to be powerful.
Your brand is your reputation, your impact, and your voice.

Mentioned in this Episode
Thriving in the Messy Middle podcast with featured guest Melissa Cohen, a LinkedIn and personal branding strategist:
The New Career Playbook: LinkedIn and Amplifying Your Unique Voice
Throughout the episode, Melissa unveils the concept of personal branding, emphasizing the importance of authenticity and showing up as one's true self even when navigating messy middle moments. Amy and Melissa explore mindset shifts essential for thriving in chaos, enriching the listener with life-changing lessons from transitions and professional evolution.

Research Referenced
How Social Media Consistency Builds Unstoppable Results, Storykit
New Insights Suggest Posting Frequency Is Key to LinkedIn Success, Social Media Today
How Often Should You Post on LinkedIn in 2025? Data From 2 Million+ Posts, Buffer
How LinkedIn posting frequency impacts growth, Medium
Women who LinkedIn: The gender networking gap among executives, ScienceDirect

This IN HER VOICE: STORIES OF LEADERSHIP episode of Thriving in the Messy Middle, hosted by Amy P Wilkins, features an insightful conversation with branding strategist and LinkedIn guru, Melissa Cohen. Melissa shares her journey from a high-powered fashion career to becoming a personal branding expert. Amy and Melissa discuss how Melissa's unexpected career pivot at Ralph Lauren during the pandemic led her to uncover a new calling in helping others build a personal brand on LinkedIn.

Throughout the episode, Melissa unveils the concept of personal branding, emphasizing the importance of authenticity and being one's true self, even in messy middle moments. They explore navigating career pivots, the power of authentic storytelling, and using LinkedIn to enhance visibility. Melissa emphasizes the importance of starting, building a network, and using AI carefully while maintaining a unique voice. Amy and Melissa discuss mindset shifts essential for thriving in chaos, enriching the listener with life-changing lessons from transitions and professional evolution.

• Non-linear Career Paths: Careers today are rarely linear, often involving lateral moves and pivots. Embrace change and be open to exploring new directions.
• Power of Personal Branding: Melissa emphasizes the importance of building a personal brand, highlighting LinkedIn as a platform that can create unforeseen opportunities and broaden one's professional visibility.
• Begin with Comments: Getting started on LinkedIn doesn't require perfection. Engage through commenting and build visibility gradually, fostering connections and conversations.
• Utilize AI judiciously: While AI can support content creation, it shouldn't replace one's unique voice. Authenticity is key to branding.
• Network and Relationships: Cultivate a robust professional network. Relationships are crucial in career transitions and can provide unexpected opportunities.

Everything good that has happened to me in the last five years has happened because I decided to be visible and keep showing up on a regular basis.
Your voice is one of the most precious assets that you have. So be really careful who and what you trust it with.
There's no perfect time, and the perfect time is now.
We're all multifaceted individuals. We all have talents… and I think we fall so easily into that trap of only focusing on what we do for work.
Content is king, but comments are the keys to the kingdom. (citing Dan Roth's insight on LinkedIn engagement. Daniel Roth, Editor in Chief, VP of Content Development at LinkedIn)
Your voice is one of the most precious assets that you have.

Mentioned in this Episode
The Spotlight Effect
Wonderland Dreams by Alexa Meade

Related Blog Article
When Growth Doesn't Look Like a Climb

Melissa Cohen is a LinkedIn and personal branding strategist who helps leaders, founders, and executives elevate their visibility, credibility, and business impact. Earlier in her career, Melissa held leadership roles in the fashion industry, contributing to the global growth of iconic American brands, including Ralph Lauren, Tommy Hilfiger, and Nautica. That brand-building expertise continues to shape her strategic, high-touch approach today.

Melissa is the creator of The Caffeinated Chronicles, a widely read LinkedIn newsletter, and the co-author of the Amazon best-selling book Your Career Resilience Blueprint. In January 2024, she was recognized as a LinkedIn Top Voice by the platform's editorial team. She is a member of the Board of Directors for Her Move Next, a 501(c)3 organization dedicated to empowering girls and young women through the power of chess, community, and competition. She was a founding member of Chief, the largest network of senior women executives.

Melissa's Website
Melissa Cohen LinkedIn Profile
@MelissaBethCohen Linktree
DIY Influence Membership Community: Co-founders Melissa Cohen & Julie Morris
Check out Melissa's #linkedinnuggets - Amy's Nugget is featured HERE

In this episode of Thriving in the Messy Middle, Amy P Wilkins, leadership coach and former media exec, draws listeners into a compelling reflection on choosing a "word of the year" and its transformative power in leading a purposeful life. Amy unveils her chosen word for 2026, "AWE," exploring its profound significance beyond just being the name of her company. With a thorough understanding of navigating complex life transitions, Amy shares insights that illustrate the rejuvenating impact of awe, both psychologically and emotionally.

Highlighting the roots of her approach, Amy outlines her "AWE Framework" – Awareness, Willingness, and Energy – as essential elements to cultivating personal growth. She discusses how fostering awareness allows individuals to recognize their true selves, willingness encourages bold action despite fear, and energy sustains progress and intentionality. Each concept underscores the importance of living strategically and embracing the unknown with a growth mindset. As Amy articulates these concepts, she utilizes key terms such as "growth zone," "resilience," and "creativity," emphasizing a scientifically validated understanding of how awe can expand our thinking, enhance well-being, and spur empathetic interactions.

• Choosing a Word of the Year: Selecting a word to guide the year provides a focused vision and grounds you amid life's unpredictabilities.
• Embracing Awe: Awe bridges the exhilarating and the terrifying, serving as a catalyst for growth and creativity.
• The AWE Framework: Awareness, Willingness, and Energy are key aspects for self-growth and navigating challenges.
• Reflection Exercise: Visualizing your achievements by the end of the year can help identify the word that aligns with your goals.
• Scientific Benefits of Awe: Experiencing awe leads to stress reduction, mood enhancement, and increased empathy.

Awe is the only word that captures that magical tension of being exhilarated and terrified at the same time.
Awareness is about paying attention to the truth of where you are right now. Without judgment, without performance, without the story.
Willingness is where transformation actually begins.
When I choose awe, I'm choosing to elevate my energy, to stay connected to the things that sustain, inspire, and stabilize me.
Energy is the expression of our choice. It's how we embody the next version of ourselves.
A single word that shapes your attention, a word that reflects your aspirations.

Research Referenced: Scientific studies about the power of awe.
The Power of Everyday Awe Eben Harrell, Harvard Business Review
What Is Awe? Greater Good Science Center, UC Berkeley
Eight Reasons Why Awe Makes Your Life Better Greater Good Science Center, UC Berkeley

In this episode of Thriving in the Messy Middle, Amy Wilkins delivers a thoughtful reflection on the crucial, often overlooked practice of year-end reflection for leaders.  As 2025 draws to a close, Amy emphasizes the importance of acknowledging both big and subtle wins, supporting your leadership, relationships, and well-being. Discover the AWE framework—Awareness, Willingness, and Energy—to help propel your leadership in 2026. This reflection nurtures clarity and confidence, enabling impactful growth beyond mere metrics. Dive into this Messy Middle Moment to reflect, reset, and prepare for the upcoming year's challenges and achievements.

• Reflecting on past achievements is crucial before planning for the next year, avoiding a negativity bias that focuses on failures.
• The AWE Framework comprises Awareness, Willingness, and Energy, facilitating a strategic reset for leaders.
• Recognizing subtle wins reinforces effective leadership behaviors and influences future success.
• Shifting to celebration impacts energy positively and aids in shaping intentional leadership for the coming year.
• Leadership growth extends beyond metrics, reflecting meaningful decisions and moments of resilience throughout the year.

Your ability to lead what comes next is shaped by your willingness to reflect on what's already happened.
By acknowledging progress, even small progress, you reinforce the behaviors that help you lead effectively.
It's the subtle wins we tend to miss—those moments that directly contribute to your impact and reputation as a leader.
If you don't pause to examine the year that was, your brain defaults to what didn't happen, what you missed, what you postponed.
How you feel about the year influences how you lead in the next one.
What energy do I want to bring into my leadership in 2026?

Related Blog Articles
It's Time for Leaders to Protect Their Most Precious Resource – Their Energy

Research Referenced: Scientific studies in neuroscience support the idea that recognizing progress encourages the perseverance of those beneficial behaviors, leading to sustainable, positive change.

Baumeister, R. F., et al. (2001). Bad Is Stronger Than Good. Review of General Psychology.
Amabile, T. & Kramer, S. (2011). The Progress Principle. Harvard Business Review Press.
Di Stefano, G., Gino, F., Pisano, G. & Staats, B. (2014). Learning by Thinking: How Reflection Aids Performance.
Grant, A. & Gino, F. (2014). A Little Thanks Goes a Long Way. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology.
Bersin, J. (2012). The State of Employee Recognition. Bersin & Associates.
Schultz, W. (2015). Neuronal Reward and Decision Signals. Physiological Reviews.
Fredrickson, B. L. (2001). Broaden-and-Build Theory of Positive Emotions. American Psychologist.
Boyatzis, R. & McKee, A. (2005). Resonant Leadership. Harvard Business School Press.

In this episode of "Thriving in the Messy Middle," host Amy Wilkins shares profound insights on growth and leadership during life's most challenging moments. Amy emphasizes that these "messy middle" moments — times when life feels most chaotic and unsteady — are indicators that exponential growth is coming. Drawing on her own experiences and those of last week's podcast guest, Allison Arden, Amy highlights the remarkable transformation that occurs when we embrace uncertainty and allow it to shape us into wiser, more resilient individuals.

Amy shares her own story of confronting misalignment and physical burnout, underscoring the importance of embracing these tumultuous periods as opportunities for self-awareness and growth. Emphasizing vulnerability and community, Amy offers rich insights, including handling crises, seeking support to overcome adversity, and finding personal growth in professional misalignment. Discover how these moments, though challenging, can reshape you as a stronger leader.

• Messy middle moments are inevitable and recurring for those on a growth journey; they offer opportunities for deep self-awareness and personal development.
• The absence of a clear path is naturally unsettling, but it often preludes significant personal evolution and leadership improvement.
• Vulnerability in the face of adversity, such as asking for help, is an empowering strength, not a weakness.
• Resilience and wisdom are the lasting legacies of challenges overcome, providing invaluable lessons and insights for navigating future obstacles.
• Engaging with a supportive community can transform seemingly insurmountable crises into opportunities for exhilaration and growth.

These messy moments are the times that shape you.
Crisis doesn't make you weak. It makes you real.
The messy middle is where the most happens.

Mentioned in this Episode
Thriving in the Messy Middle Podcast: Emotion and Purpose: A Better Way to Reinvent Your Career

Related Blog Articles
What Happens When Leaders Ask for Help: Growth & Strength
Stop Leading Alone: Why a Strong Tribe Is Essential for Leadership
How to Build Resilience When Life Gets Messy
Why Self-Awareness Is the First Step to Leadership Growth

In a riveting episode of Thriving in the Messy Middle, host Amy Wilkins welcomes Allison Arden, a pioneer in emotional intelligence within business environments. This episode takes listeners through Allison's transformative journey from a high-stakes leadership position at Ad Age to founding Elements of Us™, her groundbreaking framework for understanding and leveraging emotions at work to achieve dramatically improved outcomes. Allison shares her story of navigating personal and professional crossroads, offering powerful insights into embracing one's emotional landscape as a pathway to authentic leadership and innovative transformation.

The conversation delves into key themes of emotional resilience and personal growth, perfect for rising leaders and professionals seeking clarity amid uncertainty. Allison shares candid experiences from her time at Ad Age during tumultuous periods, such as the dot-com crash and global financial crises, illustrating how she came to recognize the power of emotions. She emphasizes the importance of pausing, self-reflection, and the courage to pivot when external success no longer aligns with internal values. Listen to Allison's story of resilience and growth for valuable lessons on navigating your own messy middle.

• Embrace the "messy middle" as an opportunity to redefine personal and professional success by aligning external achievements with internal alignment.
• Develop emotional literacy in leadership to foster human-centred workplaces and improve team alignment and resilience.
• Effective leadership requires pausing for reflection, understanding emotional cues, and asking employees meaningful questions.
• Cultivating emotional awareness can illuminate a clearer pathway when navigating crises and organizational changes.
• See every emotional challenge as a chance to connect deeply with others and drive positive change within teams and companies.

If I could help make emotion visible and make it easier to talk about and act upon, I could help a lot of people and ultimately help a lot of companies.
There's so much joy and so much goodness on the other side, and so much learning and growing, but going through it (the messy middle) is really challenging.
I believe that in setting up emotionally literate cultures and communities, and relationships, people are able to share differently.
If we start taking the steps towards it, then we get there.

Mentioned in this Episode
Elements of Us Website: Explore Allison's framework for visualizing and acting on emotions.


The Book of Doing: Everyday Activities to Unlock Your Creativity and Joy by Allison Arden - An activity book designed to inspire adults to rediscover joy and creativity.

Allison Arden is the Founder and Creator of The Elements of Us, the first patented, visual framework, language, and toolset that brings brain and behavioral science to people and teams to break through their biggest barriers, unlocking greater human connection, resilience, and performance at scale. An award-winning executive, Allison served as Publisher of Advertising Age for close to a decade. While leading through the Global Financial Crisis and the brand's digital transformation, amidst an industry going through seismic change, Allison realized the role emotion played in driving change, inspiring innovation, and navigating stress and burnout. Her curiosity set her on a mission to make the amorphous and 'soft skills' subject of emotion more visible and tangible. That mission led to The Elements of Us and a Master's in Psychology from Harvard to ensure The Elements of Us was grounded in evidence-based research and actionable insights to make an impact. She currently brings the Elements to individuals, teams, and organizations of all kinds through keynote talks and interactive experiences. The Book of Doing, Allison's first book published by Perigee, helps people of all ages unlock curiosity, creativity, and joy. A Brooklyn native, Allison is the Board Chair Emerita and board member of Reisenbach Philanthropies, supporting programs to improve the lives of all New Yorkers, and serves as a board member of Material for the Arts.

Throughout the episode, Amy emphasizes the science-backed benefits of gratitude, such as serotonin and dopamine release, which enhance motivation and emotional well-being. She presents gratitude as a powerful leadership tool that can foster connection, improve collaboration, and create a positive work environment. Amy challenges listeners to engage in acts of gratitude, inviting them to recognize and commend their teams for their contributions. Such small gestures, she asserts, can lead to significant positive outcomes.

• Gratitude is a transformative practice that can significantly impact team dynamics and personal relationships.
• Saying "thank you" can boost mental well-being by releasing serotonin and dopamine, improving motivation and emotional connection.
• Amy shares a personal story where expressing gratitude through handwritten notes made team members feel seen and valued.
• Research shows that gratitude increases generosity and collaboration, with teams exhibiting higher performance and psychological safety.

Gratitude isn't just polite, it's powerful.
When you say thank you, you're not just being nice. You're changing the brain, yours and theirs.
In the messy middle, when things are uncertain, complicated, or heavy, gratitude isn't fluff. It's fuel.
Thank someone today out loud. Be specific. Tell them what you saw, what it meant, and why it mattered.

Research References: studies and summaries behind the gratitude and neuroscience insights shared in this episode:

1. PositivePsychology.com – The Neuroscience of Gratitude
   Overview of how gratitude activates dopamine, serotonin, and key emotional regulation centers in the brain.
2. IE University – The Science of Gratitude
   MRI research shows that gratitude strengthens empathy, memory, and emotional regulation.
3. Nuvance Health – Gratitude & Stress Response
   How gratitude reduces cortisol levels and boosts well-being.
4. PMC Meta-Analysis – Effects of Gratitude Interventions
   Review of 64 studies showing gratitude improves mental health and resilience.

For more detailed sources, read my full blog article, Say Thank You: A Simple Way to Lead with Impact

In this Messy Middle Moment, leadership coach Amy Wilkins delves into the power and importance of building a supportive network, especially in challenging professional environments. Through personal anecdotes and evidence from research, Amy underscores networking as vital not just for career advancement but also for emotional and strategic support.

The episode highlights the often-overlooked aspect of networking: the role of creating a personal board of directors or forming connection circles. Amy shares inspiring stories, including one about a woman who transformed her career by relying on her network for support and empowerment. By emphasizing that forming these deep connections doesn't need to feel forced or awkward, Amy encourages listeners to reach out, initiate conversations, and intentionally build their tribe. She reinforces that having a mix of relationships with peers and high-status contacts can significantly enhance career opportunities, proving to be more than just emotional support but strategic oxygen for professionals, especially women in leadership roles.

• Building a network is crucial for career advancement; it acts as both emotional support and a strategic advantage.
• The concept of a "personal board of directors" is essential for navigating the messy middle; it should be a mix of peers and truth-tellers.
• Authentic networking begins with one conversation; it does not need to be awkward or forced.
• Women in leadership should proactively create supportive networks before the urgency of need arises.
• Forming meaningful connections, both within and outside one's workspace, is transformative and empowering.

If you don't have a tribe already, build your own table, because when you find your tribe, everything changes.
Your connections aren't just emotional fuel. I want you to think of it as strategic oxygen.
This isn't about formality. It's about choosing your people on purpose.
You are worth the effort it takes to build a table. You are worth being seen, heard, and witnessed.
Networking isn't just about meeting people; it's about building relationships. It's about having a support system.
Deep tribe building doesn't have to feel forced. It starts with one conversation.
Building your tribe might be one of the most transformative acts of leadership you can do.

Mentioned in this Episode
Kelly Wenzel featured on Episode 5 Thriving in the Messy Middle podcast, IN HER VOICE: STORIES OF LEADERSHIP
How to Embrace Change, Build Networks, and Lead with Heart

Source of Amy's Statistics: 80% of Women Leaders Use Networking to Drive Career Success
Business Wire article (Jul 19, 2023) Research, published by Chief, partnered with Morning Consult, called "The Network Effect," using data from a survey of 751 US women at and above the management level to understand their networking sentiment.

Related Blog Articles
Stop Leading Alone: Why a Strong Tribe Is Essential for Leadership

In this enlightening episode of Thriving in the Messy Middle, host Amy Wilkins welcomes Kelly Wenzel to explore thriving in the challenging "messy middle". Kelly, with her rich experience as a seven-time CMO in the tech industry, offers a unique perspective on balancing professional growth with personal values and responsibilities. The episode dives deep into the challenges faced when navigating career progression, the importance of a robust support network, and the role of authenticity and integrity in leadership.

Kelly reflects on key moments from her career in B2B technology, discussing the subtle challenges faced as a woman in the C-suite and the strategies she employed to navigate these experiences. She emphasizes the necessity of building strong relationships, both professionally and personally, to combat self-doubt and drive transformative change. For those navigating transitions, Kelly's candid stories and practical advice offer guidance on embracing vulnerability, setting clear intentions, and trusting in personal growth and evolution. Discover how these strategies can transform your leadership journey.

• Navigating Leadership Spaces: Embrace authenticity and integrity in leadership, focusing on open communication and honest assessments to guide teams through transformation.
• Building a Supportive Network: Establish a personal board of advisors, or a network of batteries, to energize and guide you through career challenges and self-doubt.
• Career & Personal Life Integration: Successfully managing career and family is possible but requires intentional decisions and support systems.
• Embracing Change and the Unknown: Stay open to opportunities despite self-doubt, as unforeseen opportunities can lead to significant career advancements.
• Resilience through Adversity: In moments of personal or professional hardship, allow space for emotions, rely on your support network, and refocus on future goals with clarity of purpose.

"There are two types of people in life. Some people charge you up; those are your batteries. And the people who weigh you down, those are your anchors."
"You cannot give in to self-doubt. You are always going to have those voices that are trying to tear you down, and usually, they're your own."
"Identity, actions, feelings. Start with identity. Who do you want to show up in the world? Who do you want to be?"
"The mess always comes before the morph, right? Like, there's always great change that's coming on the other side of that mess."
"Nothing shifts your attitude like gratitude."

This episode of Thriving in the Messy Middle is a special collaboration with The Advertising Club of New York as a visiting podcast. This episode encourages listeners to embrace the messy middle as a pivotal phase for growth and self-discovery, offering practical advice for thriving in challenging times.

Leadership coach and host Amy P. Wilkins sits down with Melissa Grady Dias, former Cadillac CMO and The Advertising  Club board member, to explore the nuances of leadership amid life's messy transitions. This episode explores the unique challenges and triumphs Melissa encountered as she navigated her career, from significant roles in Fortune 500 companies to the intimate challenges of startup environments. With a backdrop of professional accomplishments and personal growth, Melissa offers invaluable insights into leadership amid chaos and unpredictability.

In this engaging episode, key themes include Melissa's development as a leader and her transformative journey fueled by passion and data-driven decisions. Learn about her experience transitioning into the role of CMO and how she balanced personal pressures with the weight of professional expectations. Melissa beautifully articulates how trust in oneself and one's team becomes central in environments where the stakes seem overwhelming. She highlights the importance of being in tune with personal signals and the lessons learned in safe spaces, where the convergence of failure and success crafted her resilient leadership style. Melissa shares insights from her remarkable career journey, emphasizing the blend of passion, fear, and perseverance.

• The amalgamation of excitement and fear can drive significant growth and create "awe" inspiring experiences in personal and professional life.
• Allowing room for failure is crucial; it sparks creativity and leads to innovative solutions.
• Listening to internal signals and knowing when one is ready to face truths can prevent unhealthy stress and enhance decision-making.
• Leadership success relies more on inspiring those around you than pure individual productivity.
• Balancing personal care and professional demands fosters a sustainable career and life rhythm.

I am very driven by passion. I get very excited to solve problems.
Be more gentle with yourself.
I have done a few entrepreneurial things by myself before, but to work in a startup and take a lot of what I've known from big companies and now apply that to getting a business going has been really, really interesting.
I love the contrarian point of view. It's going to help me form what we're doing and what we're thinking.
I put much more pressure on myself than anyone else puts on me.
We learn more from failure, and if we never fail, we haven't pushed far enough.
I've started using vision boards to help me think about…what do I want and what does it look like?
My definition of success is my home, my family, the friends I surround myself with, and the good life I've built.

Mentioned in this Episode
The Advertising Club of New York
The Advertising Club of New York Podcasts

Melissa Grady Dias was appointed Global Chief Marketing Officer of Cadillac in September 2019. As CMO, Melissa led strategic marketing for the Cadillac brand around the world, driving the transformational work that has taken place over the past several years. During her time at the helm, she oversaw several of Cadillac's biggest and most consequential launches in the Cadillac Escalade and all-electric LYRIQ, ESCALADE IQ, VISTIQ, and CELESTIQ vehicles in addition to the rollout of a new global brand strategy and visual identity. Recently, Melissa was recognized by Forbes ("50 Most Influential CMOs in the World" and "Entrepreneurial CMO List"), AdAge (Leading Women), Business Insider (Most Innovative CMOs), and Northwestern Medill (Hall of Achievement). Melissa has extensive experience leading teams across multiple industries and organizations, from entrepreneurial ventures to Fortune 500 companies.

Before joining Cadillac, Melissa was Senior Vice President of Performance Marketing at Jackson Hewitt. Before Jackson Hewitt, Melissa led the Digital Acquisition and Analytics at MetLife and the Global Analytics, e-Commerce Marketing, and CRM teams at Motorola.

Melissa has in-depth expertise in brand transformation, data-driven marketing, and technology - including new and emerging approaches - and has spoken at several conferences, including Cannes Lions, the Forbes CMO Summit, AdWeek, AdExchanger, and IAB conferences, as well as several podcast appearances, including Just B with Bethenny Frankel, Girl Boss, Decoder with Nilay Patel, and Revisionist History with Malcolm Gladwell.

She earned a Master of Science in Integrated Marketing with a specialization in Database, Direct, and e-commerce from Northwestern University and holds a Bachelor of Arts from DePaul in Business Administration, with minors in English and Communications.

Melissa has a passion for wellness, mindfulness, and mental health. In her spare time, she enjoys traveling and hiking with her husband and dog.

Melissa Grady Dias LinkedIn Profile

In this episode, Amy Wilkins explores the value of the "swing route," named for the football play, as a strategy for navigating life's challenges. Combining neuroscience and personal anecdotes, she discusses the importance of pausing to reset and rethink, highlighting how these moments can offer new perspectives and opportunities. Drawing on Barbara Fredrickson's Broaden-and-Build theory, Amy emphasizes how taking space allows for greater creativity and resilience. She encourages listeners to trust their timing and see detours as divine redirections, enabling growth and progress in the "messy middle" of life's journey. Join Amy as she offers encouragement and wisdom to all navigating through life's complex passages. 

• The "swing route" metaphor teaches versatility in progressing through life's blockades by utilizing indirect paths to gain clarity and perspective.
• Redirecting one's mindset to embrace detours as opportunities can lead to profound personal growth.
• Amy emphasizes the "broaden and build theory," highlighting how pause and space broaden perspective and enhance mental resilience.
• Personal and anecdotal experiences show that creating space allows for a more intelligent and strategic approach to personal development.

That detour isn't always a delay. Sometimes it's a divine redirect.
The swing route… It's the play that you call when the field is too crowded, when the middle is messy, and when the straight line feels blocked.
When we pause, we allow space for curiosity, AWE, and even just a moment of breath. We broaden our perspective.
You're not falling behind. You're in motion, and that's enough.
Trust the play. You're not off track. You're on the path that's being made for you.

In this enlightening episode of Thriving in the Messy Middle, host Amy Wilkins dives into the concept of saboteurs—the negative inner voices and critics that hinder personal and professional growth. These saboteurs, shaped by early experiences, can hold women back from reaching their potential by fostering self-doubt and fear. Amy introduces the Positive Intelligence®️ framework, developed by Shirzad Chamine, an operating system that helps identify and quiet these internal saboteurs to make way for positive growth and leadership development.

Throughout the episode, Amy explains the various types of saboteurs, including the universal judge and accomplice saboteurs like the hypervigilant and hyperachiever, highlighting how they manifest during challenging times, transitions, and moments of self-doubt. By addressing the physiological and emotional cues associated with these saboteurs and sharing practical strategies for building mental fitness, Amy equips her audience with actionable insights to silence the inner critic and embrace the sage mindset, where clarity, creativity, and connection thrive. Key discussions also include recognizing emotional red flags and learning to celebrate awareness as the first step towards reclaiming one's power.

• Saboteurs are the often-persuasive yet negative internal voices that limit potential and promote self-doubt; learning to quiet them can unlock personal and professional growth.
• The Positive Intelligence®️ Operating System by Shirzad Chamine offers a method for identifying and mitigating the impact of various saboteurs.
• Saboteur Assessment helps identify the most prevalent saboteur
• Emotional and physical cues, such as tension and prolonged negative emotions, can signal the presence of saboteurs.
• Transitioning to a sage mindset allows individuals to respond with clarity, creativity, and connection.
• Building mental fitness through simple practices can significantly reduce the influence of saboteurs and enhance leadership capabilities.

Everything that they [saboteurs] say to keep you small is a lie.
Once you've powered up your Sage, you can choose the response and not just react.
Growth is not dangerous. It's where your brilliance lies.

Mentioned In This Episode
Positive Intelligence®️ Saboteurs
Saboteur Assessment

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How to Build Resilience When Life Gets Messy

In this Messy Middle Moment episode Amy Wilkins introduces listeners to strategies for reflection, reset, and rise during life's turbulent periods. Using her expertise, Amy delves into how moments of disruption often reveal unexpected strengths and opportunities, transforming adversity into avenues for growth.

Throughout the episode, Amy emphasizes resilience, drawing on the concept of "ordinary magic" as described by psychologist Ann S. Masten. Resilience is portrayed not as a rare trait but as an everyday strength grounded in small gestures, laughter, and reflections, forming the fabric of post-traumatic growth. Through research from Barbara Fredrickson, Amy emphasizes the role of positive emotions, curiosity, and awe in navigating hardship, inspiring listeners to choose awareness, willingness, and energy. Discover how these elements can turn the messy middle into a space for transformation and possibility.

• Discover resilience as "ordinary magic" and how it emerges in daily life.
• Difficult life periods can lead to personal growth, often revealing strengths and opening new pathways.
• The practice of pairing fear with wonder, as encapsulated in Amy's A.W.E framework, is crucial for transformation.
• Embrace curiosity to redefine and navigate the challenges of life's in-between moments.

Resilience is not that rare thing that's just reserved for superheroes.
Growth doesn't cancel out pain. They often coexist. We can feel broken and be building at the same time.
Instead of asking, why is this happening to me? Curiosity asks, what might this moment be teaching me?"
What if this hard season is shaping me in ways I can't yet see? That's AWE.

Mentioned in this Episode
Ann S. Masten Ordinary Magic Resilience Processes in Development PDF
Barbara Fredrickson Positivity Ratio Website

Related Blog Articles
How to Build Resilience When Life Gets Messy
Why Self-Awareness Is the First Step to Leadership Growth

In the debut episode of Thriving in the Messy Middle, host Amy Wilkins sets the tone for a podcast dedicated to women leaders navigating life's in-between moments. This show is especially for those who look successful on the outside but feel scattered, stretched, or stuck on the inside.

Amy begins by sharing her own experience as a former media executive. From the outside, her life looked like a highlight reel. However, on the inside, she felt fried, questioning, and lonely. As she tells it, the messy middle was not a detour—it was a wake-up call. More importantly, it became a turning point.

Because of this, Amy chose to work with a leadership coach. That decision changed everything. It helped her reconnect with her values, reframe her path, and embrace the messy middle. This experience led her to pursue the path of coaching and eventually launch Choose Awe, a coaching practice that supports women leaders just like her.

This first episode introduces the podcast's core themes: self-awareness, purpose, alignment, and the power of intentional pause. Amy reminds us that the messy middle is not a failure—it's a signal that something new is emerging. And rather than pushing through, what if we leaned in?

Each episode promises practical tools, personal stories, and soul-nourishing strategies. The goal? To help women shift from simply surviving to powerfully thriving in all areas of their lives.

• The messy middle is a sign of growth, not something to fear.
• You don't need to wait for a breakdown to make a breakthrough.
• Thriving isn't about having it all together—it's about having what matters.
• Leadership coaching can offer clarity, support, and a path forward.
• Community matters. You're not meant to do this alone.

The messy middle isn't a detour or something to escape—it's a signal you're on the cusp of something big.
Growth isn't a one-time event. It's a lifelong process.
Thriving looks like days with meaning, boundaries with heart, and leadership with soul.
You are the most worthwhile project you will ever work on.

Welcome to Thriving in the Messy Middle — the podcast that champions the courage, clarity, and creativity it takes to navigate life's in-between moments. Hosted by Amy Wilkins, each episode explores what it means to show up fully in the middle of transitions, transformations, and the tension between what was and what's next. Whether you're reimagining your purpose, pivoting in your career, or simply figuring things out as you go — this show is for you. Join us for real talk, inspiring stories, and practical tools to help you not just survive the middle, but truly thrive in it.

In this episode, Amy P. Wilkins welcomes Jeanne Meyer, a highly accomplished communications coach, to discuss the transformative power of communication in the corporate world. With a background that includes working alongside industry giant Martha Stewart, Jeanne shares insights into how clear and strategic communication can impact businesses and individuals, proving pivotal in times of crisis and growth. 

Jeanne's unique perspective on managing crises with foresight and leveraging AI tools serves as a guide for professionals aiming for career advancement amidst change and uncertainty. She emphasizes the importance of developing soft skills independently and honing one's personal brand to thrive in dynamic work environments. Addressing common communication pitfalls, Jeanne highlights easy strategies like avoiding uptalk and embracing a varied vocal modulation that can greatly enhance one's presence and effectiveness. They also explore the power of networking and the art of presenting oneself with confidence. With practical tips and relatable anecdotes, this episode offers valuable guidance for leaders at any stage of their career journey.

• Developing soft skills on your own is crucial as companies may not provide adequate training, especially for emerging leaders.
• Avoid communication pitfalls such as uptalk and encourage declamatory speech for enhanced credibility.
• Always be prepared for crises and have a contingency plan to ensure effective communication and quicker recovery in difficult situations.
• Record and review your communication to identify and improve verbal tics, enhancing your public speaking and personal effectiveness.
• In networking, strive for a balance of giving and getting, focusing on meaningful connections rather than transactional interactions.

The favorite part of what I do is the immediate impact that my work has.
Be prepared with a plan… and over-communicate.
Broadcast generously on LinkedIn; stick to a 4 to 5 ratio of give to get.
Now there's no time like the present to network and show up.
Good communication can really have an immediate payoff.
A strong recommendation to not do something can really have a pivotal impact on a business, on a person, and on how they can connect with an audience.
As an adrenaline junkie, I love to see the impact of what I'm doing in real-time.
The need to develop soft skills on your own. Don't assume that your company or entity is going to set you up for success.
Nobody thinks they need crisis management until they're in the middle of a crisis.

Mentioned in this Episode
Best AI Tools to use in 2026
Beautiful AI for deck building
Jeanne Meyer on What's Authoritative and Expert in the Age of AI?

Jeanne Meyer is a connector, a well-respected strategic communications leader, and the founder of Authentic Intelligence. She advises C-Suite executives on communications strategy, crisis management, thought leadership, and their own visibility. Meyer also coaches in-house teams and agencies and is an in-demand media and presentation trainer.  Jeanne led communications and marketing at global brands including Martha Stewart, Al Gore's Current TV, EMI Music, and ToysRUs.com. She is also an Executive-in-Residence at Media/Tech Investment Bank Progress Partners. She is a sought-after advisor for emerging brands in media, entertainment, and enterprise tech. Earlier in her career, she led marketing at Internet TV start-up Pseudo Programs and held senior posts at leading agencies Robinson Lerer Montgomery (now Finsbury), DKC, and Dorf & Stanton, and established the environmental affairs function at Lever Brothers Company. She earned a bachelor's degree in Journalism from the University of Missouri and has served on non-profit boards such as The Grammy Foundation and Mouse.Org, a leading EdTech organization. She's an avid triathlete, skier, mom, and cook.

Jeanne Meyer LinkedIn Profile

In this enlightening episode of Thriving in the Messy Middle, Amy P Wilkins welcomes Mita Mallick, a powerhouse in the corporate world and a bestselling author, to delve into the intricacies of leadership amidst life's uncertainties. Discover revelations about confronting workplace biases, managing career transitions, and redefining leadership from Mita's book, The Devil Emails at Midnight. Mita shares her profound insights into navigating some of her own challenging experiences, reflecting themes of identity, leadership growth, and resilience. This conversation is a treasure trove for women in transitional career phases, offering real-life stories and practical lessons to support their journey through the messy middle.

Mita reveals her mission to repair broken workplaces by transforming bad bosses into effective leaders. This episode features discussions on themes like the motherhood penalty, the dynamics of office politics, and the importance of proactive career planning. The concept of a "brag book" is introduced, a tool for cataloging career accomplishments to help individuals navigate layoffs and surprise evaluations. Amy and Mita also touch on emotional management practices during career transitions, highlighting Mita's own evolution as a leader and an advocate for storytelling's transformative power in the workplace.

• Leadership is founded on the principle of empowering others and creating more leaders, not merely maintaining a position of authority.
• Personal narratives, such as the story of your name or cultural background, are powerful tools that should be embraced and shared.
• Women, especially mothers, often face additional workplace challenges and biases, deemed as the motherhood penalty, while men might receive a fatherhood bonus.
• Having a "brag book" or "rainy day folder" can be an invaluable resource for managing career changes, performance reviews, and unexpected layoffs.
• Understanding and engaging with office politics is crucial for career longevity and advancement, reframing it from something negative into a strategic social engagement.

A really good leader knows their number one job is to create more leaders.
Keep your head down, work hard, you will be recognized, and stay out of trouble.
We teach people how to treat us.
The motherhood penalty, the fatherhood premium, all of that is playing out. And I wanted to do both things well.
Are you coaching? Are you teaching? Are you training? Are you lifting them up?
We have control, we have agency, we have power over our careers and our lives.
This too shall pass. It shall pass. There's a light at the end of the tunnel.

Mentioned in this Episode
Entrepreneur Article for National Daughters' Day by Mita Mallick:
We Must Teach Our Daughters to Stand Up For Themselves at Work — 3 Lessons as a Woman in Corporate America

Mita Mallick is a Wall Street Journal, USA Today, and LA Times Best Selling Author. Mita is on a mission to fix what's broken in our workplaces. Her most recent book, The Devil Emails at Midnight: What Good Leaders Can Learn From Bad Bosses, tackles head-on how bad bosses aren't born. Bad bosses are made. Mita is a corporate change maker with a track record of transforming businesses. She's a highly sought-after advisor and speaker who has advised Fortune 500 companies and start-ups alike. She is a LinkedIn Top Voice, a contributor to Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, Adweek, and Entrepreneur.

Mita Mallick LinkedIn Profile

Amy P Wilkins is joined by Meb Francisco, a dynamic figure in data technology and leadership. Meb reflects on her transition from multicultural analytics to a tech-centric role, highlighting the challenges and growth in the "messy middle", or as she calls it, the "arid desert." Through personal anecdotes, Meb offers insights on leadership, the power of embracing uncertainty, and the value of reflection to inspire listeners to embrace their own career challenges.

Meb Francisco delves into how acknowledging one's imperfect preparedness can act as a springboard for personal and professional development. This episode is packed with central themes such as vulnerability, self-awareness, navigating career transitions, overcoming self-doubt, seizing opportunities, and the importance of community support. By sharing her journey through professional deserts, Meb encourages listeners to tackle daunting challenges with resilience and see them as opportunities for growth. Her motivational message focuses on building empathy, assisting others through their own challenges, and recognizing the transformative potential of embracing difficult transitions.

• Embrace Vulnerability: Meb emphasizes recognizing personal gaps and being open about them as a key to growth and learning.
• Community and Support: Lean on your community and be vulnerable enough to ask for help when needed.
• Learning Through Experience: Facing difficult challenges can lead to immense personal growth and empowerment.
• Recognition of Past Successes: Remember times you have overcome similar challenges, boosting confidence to face new ones.
• Empathetic Leadership: Use personal experiences to support and uplift others in their professional journeys.

After you go through that desert and you realize you come from the other side, you realize how much you've grown.
You miss every opportunity you don't take.
Nobody was giving you this role; you earned it. That seat is yours.
Nobody is born knowing. So if it could be taught, it could be learned.
Embrace that messy middle. You'll thank yourself for it tomorrow.
There's something that you have that they need. Own the worthiness that is in you and understand the value that only you can provide.
When somebody extends a hand and says I'm here to help believe them, lean into them.
There is power in saying, I'm not where I want or think I should be.

Mentioned in this Episode

Meb Francisco leads a team of data operations, engineers, AI specialist and compliance teams responsible for integrating both structured and unstructured data to extract value in every signal. She is a strategic data partner with a 20-year career, specializing in developing advanced
audience strategies, data solutions, and tech stack integrations.

Using a data agnostic approach to insights and innovative data mining techniques, Meb strives to bring audience insights and analytics to the forefront of the discussion. Her mission is to inspire, inform, and push the boundaries on how data can be used to drive business results. Meb has worked with major marketers across a broad range of products and service including: Coca-Cola, Bayer, Astellas, Walgreens, Target, eBay, Uber, Nestle, NBC Universal, MARS, Citi, among others.

She holds an Executive Diploma in AI in Business from Oxford University, and a Master's of Science degree in Integrated Marketing from New York University with a specialization in Marketing Analytics. She sits on the board of She Runs It, an organization focused on helping women lead in Marketing, Media, and Tech. Notably, she led the deployment of the Covid Vaccination Demand Model for Walgreens, earning multiple industry awards, including the iCOM Data Creativity awards, Best use of real
time Marketing at the Festival of Media, the Grand Prix Internationalist Innovation Digital solutions award, and the Echo Gold Award from the ANA master's in Data and technology, among others. She is also part of the 2022 Adweek all-star class, representing the top 19 Media Executives driving media
agency evolution.

Mebrulin "Meb" Francisco LinkedIn Profile

Amy P Wilkins is a leadership coach, former media executive, and the founder of Choose Awe—a coaching practice devoted to helping women leaders navigate transitions with clarity, courage, and self-trust. After decades in senior leadership roles, Amy now empowers women to lead with purpose and thrive through the "messy middle" seasons of life and leadership.

In this episode of Thriving in the Messy Middle, Amy P Wilkins explores the challenges and growth opportunities for women leaders who find themselves in transitional or difficult phases of their careers. Drawing inspiration from a story shared by Linda Thomas Brooks, Amy emphasizes the notion that success is not merely about winning but about how you play the game, which resonates with leaders stuck in the messy middle. The narrative emphasizes that genuine leadership entails stretching beyond one's comfort zone to embrace growth, particularly when faced with ambiguity and pressure.

Listeners will encounter themes centered on the importance of a growth mindset, supported by research from Carol Dweck, which suggests that seeking challenges rather than avoiding them fosters continuous development. Further, Amy references psychological safety, based on Amy Edmondson's work, discussing how high-performing teams thrive in environments prioritizing open dialogue and safety in disagreement. Ultimately, this episode delves into why leaders must focus on evolving their game by seeking feedback and surrounding themselves with diverse perspectives rather than relying solely on past successes.

• Leadership involves continuous growth through challenging oneself beyond comfort zones.
• A growth mindset enables leaders to embrace challenges as development opportunities.
• Psychological safety is crucial for effective team performance and encourages novel ideas.
• True leadership is not about always winning but about learning and improving one's play.
• Diverse perspectives within teams lead to better decision-making and innovation.

Winning and playing your best are not the same thing.
Leaders with a growth mindset are more open to feedback, more willing to admit what they don't know, and far more likely to keep learning even when they're already successful.
Psychological safety doesn't mean lowering standards. It means creating an environment where people can speak up, challenge assumptions, admit uncertainty, and take intelligent risks without fear.
In the messy middle of leadership…the temptation is to rely on what's worked before, to default to expertise instead of curiosity.
Leadership development doesn't happen in comfort. It happens at the edge of what we know.
Growth doesn't come from easy wins. It comes from being willing to be challenged.

Mentioned in this Episode
Thriving in the Messy Middle with Guest Linda Thomas Brooks: Navigating Media and Technology Without Losing Your Ethical Compass

Carol Dweck: A Summary of Growth and Fixed Mindsets
Amy Edmondson: Research on Psychological Safety

Amy P Wilkins is a leadership coach, former media executive, and the founder of Choose Awe—a coaching practice devoted to helping women leaders navigate transitions with clarity, courage, and self-trust. She now channels her senior leadership experience to helping women to lead with purpose and thrive through the "messy middle" seasons of life and leadership.

In this episode of Thriving in the Messy Middle, host Amy P Wilkins talks with Linda Thomas Brooks, an accomplished leader in media, marketing, and communications. Linda shares how her career, filled with pivotal moments and decisions, highlights the importance of pushing boundaries, staying adaptable, and maintaining core values. Her extensive experience across various sectors offers invaluable insights for women leaders aiming to thrive amid chaos and change.

Linda discusses her transformative career journey, which includes significant roles leading organizations like General Motors Media Works and the PRSA. She emphasizes the importance of having a strong ethical foundation in media and communications and describes how to navigate the challenges that arise when values are tested. Linda's candid discussion reveals the mindset shifts necessary for personal and professional growth, alongside her strategies for dealing with the demands of leadership, such as surrounding oneself with supportive people, being open to learning, and always challenging oneself to think critically.

• Resilience and Adaptability: Linda highlights the necessity of being adaptable in leadership roles across different industries and the value of learning from challenging experiences.
• Ethical Leadership: Emphasizing the importance of ethics, Linda discusses the need for leaders in media to uphold integrity and social responsibility, especially in content curation and dissemination.
• Continuous Learning and Mentorship: Encouraging ongoing learning, Linda underscores the role of mentors and the significance of absorbing knowledge from others with more experience.
• Values and Decision-Making: Deciphering one's core values and understanding their importance in decision-making processes can be pivotal in navigating professional landscapes.
• Embracing the Messy Middle: Emphasizing acceptance of challenges as part of the journey, Linda encourages women leaders to embrace the messiness and learn from it for personal growth.

If you were ever bored in this job, it would be your own fault.
Surround yourself with really smart, nice people who up your game.
Just because I can carry the burden doesn't mean it's not a heavy one.
Remember to recognize the weight you're carrying and give yourself permission to feel it.
Every voice matters, but it's equally important to gain the wisdom of those more experienced before making your mark.
The messy middle is just another step along the way.

Mentioned in this Episode
What? So What? Now What? Critical Reflection Model

Linda Thomas Brooks is a visionary leader whose career spans the intersections of nonprofit leadership, media, technology, and ethical communications. Most recently, she served as CEO of the Public Relations Society of America (PRSA), where she championed initiatives to combat mis- and disinformation and led the development of industry standards around ethical AI use. Under her leadership, PRSA was named Global Public Relations Association of the Year, and Linda was honored as an Industry Champion in the PR News Top Women in PR Awards.

Throughout her career, Thomas Brooks has brought strategic insight and operational excellence to high-impact roles—from President and CEO of the Association of Magazine Media to EVP of General Motors Mediaworks, overseeing $750M in annual media investment. She also served as President of Ingenuity Media at The Martin Agency and helped shape marketing strategy at Trilogy, a tech firm focused on business transformation. A founding executive of the Institute for Advertising Ethics, she has been instrumental in advancing responsible advertising practices adopted by Fortune 500 companies and top universities alike.

Widely recognized for her industry impact, Linda's accolades include Advertising Age Women to Watch, the AAF Hall of Achievement, and Folio's Top 100 Execs. She serves on advisory councils at The Ohio State University and is a sought-after speaker and advisor on media ethics, consumer behavior, and the evolving communications landscape.

Linda Thomas Brooks LinkedIn Profile

In this episode of Thriving in the Messy Middle, hosted by leadership coach and former media executive Amy P Wilkins, we delve into the complexities and pivotal moments women leaders face in transitional phases of their careers. Amy provides an introspective look into the concept of building a guiding coalition within organizations, inspired by her enlightening conversation with Sarena Diamond.

Throughout the episode, Amy highlights the importance of recognizing when a shift is necessary, whether it's continuing to invest in the current organizational structure or acknowledging a misalignment that demands action. Drawing on her personal leadership experiences and insights gained from her conversation with Sarena, Amy emphasizes the importance of guiding coalitions in driving change and shaping company culture. This episode encourages leaders to reflect deeply on their commitment to their current roles and the potential impact of their influence.

Serena Diamond is a renowned leader committed to fostering organizational change and alignment. With a career marked by substantial influence in her field, Serena advocates for shaping culture through strategic internal collaboration. Her insights on guiding coalitions in leadership provide invaluable guidance for those navigating the complexities of organizational dynamics.

• Understanding the importance of building a guiding coalition as a leader to influence change within an organization.
• Realizing that willingness to invest in a guiding coalition can signal alignment and belief in the organization's potential.
• Differentiating between frustration and misalignment to make informed decisions about staying or leaving.
• Acknowledging the courage it takes to shape culture internally and the invisible nature of this work.
• Reflecting on personal willingness to lead and influence as a signal for career direction and alignment.

A guiding coalition exists to help leaders influence change from within. It's how ideas travel and silos loosen, and it's how culture actually shifts.
Frustration says, this is hard, but I care. Misalignment says, I no longer believe my effort here will matter.
Staying doesn't mean everything is aligned. It means the misalignment feels workable.
Sometimes the messy middle isn't asking you to try harder; it's asking you to be honest with yourself.
When that willingness disappears, it's not a character flaw; it's just data.
Staying doesn't mean everything is aligned. It means the misalignment feels workable.
The messy middle isn't something we pass through once. It shows up again and again, and each time we meet it with a bit more awareness, a bit more choice, and a lot more self-trust.

In this episode of Thriving in the Messy Middle, your host Amy P Wilkins has an enriching conversation with Sarena Diamond on navigating and thriving in transformation leadership. With a career spanning over thirty years, Sarena sheds light on the importance of leading with heart and embracing the inevitable chaos within change processes. She recounts her own journey from a corporate transformation executive to a solopreneur, emphasizing the necessity of people-centered and values-driven leadership.

Sarena shares her experiences navigating organizational change, particularly during unpredictable times like the COVID-19 pandemic. Highlighting the significance of maintaining a robust network and fostering a guiding coalition, she demonstrates how leaders can not only endure but thrive amidst uncertainty. The discussion touches on essential themes such as building personal and professional networks, leveraging LinkedIn for personal branding, and leading without losing oneself. Sarena's insights provide a roadmap for leaders looking to stay anchored as they adapt to change, offering a valuable perspective on the transformative power of collaboration and shared vision.

• Building a strong network with diverse perspectives is crucial for effective leadership and navigating the "messy middle."
• Embracing change and allowing oneself to be vulnerable can lead to unanticipated growth and innovation.
• Developing a personal brand and maintaining an active presence on LinkedIn can significantly enhance leadership visibility and influence.
• Creating a guiding coalition helps leaders share decision-making responsibilities, fostering a more united and effective team.
• Continuous learning and curiosity are fundamental in adapting to rapid changes within organizations and industries.

The best leaders through the change are the ones who make teams want to share, learn, and be part of the solution.
We recognized that in the face of adversity, we were not only thriving but making all kinds of changes.
There is power in the LinkedIn platform and the ability to connect with people who are like you.
Creating a guiding coalition for the rest of the organization is so important.
If you were on Gilligan's Island, all of a sudden, you'd have to figure it out.
I say to people all the time that I am good at helping navigate change now because I've learned a lot of lessons about how not to do it.
It's lonely going by yourself.
You get better by allowing other people to be part of this journey.

Related to this Episode
The New Career Playbook: LinkedIn and Amplifying Your Unique Voice

Sarena Diamond, CEO & Founder of Diamond Solutions Group, is an executive consultant who helps business leaders bring big vision to life and turns "what if?" wonderings into "way to go!" celebrations.

After 30 years of climbing corporate ladders and achieving success by all the traditional definitions, Sarena now serves as a global transformation executive with a track record indesigning and deploying strategic transformation. With expertise in Organizational Change Management, she engages high-performing teams while delivering innovation, operational excellence, and process improvement initiatives.

As CEO and Founder of Diamond Solutions Group, Sarena leverages her corporate experiences from Accenture, IBM, Pepsi Cola, and Mellon to inspire teams to embrace change more easily and bring leaders' visions to life in client environments ranging from Fortune 100 enterprises to PE-backed ventures.

Sarena holds an MBA from Pace University, a BS in Computer Science from Russell Sage College, and a certification in Collaborative Storytelling for Social Impact from Georgetown University. Sarena is an energetic public speaker, avid community volunteer, and conscientious board member. Most significantly, Sarena is "Mom" to three terrific adults and "Honey" to a loving, supportive partner.

Sarena Diamond LinkedIn Profile

In this episode of Thriving in the Messy Middle, host Amy P Wilkins delves into the power of celebrating achievements and shifting perspectives with the Big Life Blueprint, a life design tool focused on clarity, growth, and impact. Amy emphasizes the importance of acknowledging what has been accomplished as a foundation for future aspirations. Her philosophy champions moving away from a deficiency mindset and focusing instead on one's current capabilities and accomplishments.

Throughout the episode, Amy highlights the significance of shifting perspectives from mere goal acquisition to cultivating experiences, impact, and meaning across all areas of life. This mindset shift underpins the Big Life Blueprint, which begins with a "Celebration Audit" that encourages individuals to look at their lives as a whole rather than at siloed achievements. Additionally, Amy discusses the process of writing a letter from one's future self, exploring personal growth, and choosing how to support oneself in times of stress. This holistic approach ensures that personal development extends beyond professional benchmarks and fosters a rich, purposeful existence.

Explore how identifying your true priorities, writing letters from your future self, and recognizing personal patterns can help shape a meaningful future. Connect with Amy for more insights into thriving in transitional periods.

• The Big Life Blueprint is not a simple goal-setting or productivity tool but a comprehensive life-design process focusing on meaningful growth and possibility.
• Acknowledging past achievements is crucial for building a strong foundation for future aspirations, steering away from a mindset of lack and deficiency.
• The practice of writing a letter from your future self helps translate abstract visions into tangible and achievable goals, emphasizing experience over acquisitions.
• Amy stresses the need to explore who we need to be to achieve goals, rather than merely listing tasks, to foster true personal transformation.
• By understanding our patterns and support mechanisms, we can anticipate and navigate life's challenges, maintaining momentum toward our envisioned futures.

The future we create is heavily influenced by the lens we use to see the present.
Celebration isn't the destination. It's the launch pad. Looking back isn't about staying there.
Goals don't create futures. People do.
The Big Life Blueprint isn't about fixing yourself. It's about seeing clearly and creating from possibility.
How you show up shapes what becomes possible.
Everything is connected, which means if we're going to create a meaningful future, we need to look at the whole picture.
The messy middle has a way of shrinking our field of vision.
Celebration isn't about pretending everything is wonderful. It is about accurately reflecting your achievements, both big and small.
Meaningful futures aren't built in one category. They're built across the full landscape of our lives.
The Big Life Blueprint isn't just about creating what comes next. It's about discovering what matters enough to make sure it does.

Mentioned in this Episode
Take the Messy Middle Archetype Assessment™
Amy P Wilkins LinkedIn Profile

In this episode of Thriving in the Messy Middle, host Amy P Wilkins converses with Jean Batthany, a groundbreaking thinker in regenerative creativity. Jean shares her journey from corporate success to personal challenges, including the loss of a job and a family member, which prompted a life-changing pause. Jean shares her exceptional journey from being a Chief Creative Officer to embarking on a path of introspection and growth.

Jean's story is a beacon for anyone grappling with the challenges of constant productivity pressures. Tune in to discover how pausing isn't a moment of inefficiency but a critical element in nurturing creativity and fostering effective leadership. Listen in as Jean reveals the transformative power of taking deliberate pauses to harness creativity and restore well-being.

• The Art of Pause: Taking intentional pauses can restore creativity and foster productivity rather than deplete it.
• Shifting Paradigms: Toxic productivity and constant hustle are not sustainable; regenerative creativity offers a fulfilling alternative.
• Impact of Life Events: Transformative personal experiences can provoke profound career and lifestyle shifts.
• Micro Pauses: Incorporating small, consistent pauses throughout the day helps reduce stress and improve cognitive function.
• Systemic Change: Creating cultures of safety and collaboration is vital for unleashing human creativity and potential.

Pause isn't just a woo-woo personal indulgence. It's a proven way to reduce chronic stress and perform actually better.
Are we creating cultures where ideas and people can truly thrive?
When you take a step back, you notice what wasn't working and pave the pathway to regenerative creativity.
We're human beings, not human doings.
The world and the industry need creativity and human ingenuity more than ever. That's our superpower: return to human.
It sounds so cliché, but you cannot pour from an empty cup. You cannot take care of others when you're at a deficit.

Mentioned in this Episode
Jean's LinkedIn post: I'm not going anywhere."
Jean's TEDx Talk: The Art of the Pause

Honored as one of Business Insider's 30 Most Creative Women in Advertising, Jean Batthany is ruthlessly committed to creating impact. She is the founder of Art of the Pause and a pioneer of Regenerative Creativity. After 30 years in the business of creativity, Jean has created a new operating system and the conditions for ideas to flow with abundance vs being extracted through fear and scarcity. She has spoken at TEDx, Cannes Lions Festival of Creativity, and NASA JPL. As Walmart's first Chief Creative Officer, she led their evolution from a transactional company to an emotional brand. As VP, Global Creative at Disney, Jean transformed the in- house team into an award-winning integrated agency. She grew up making and leading creative agency side at DDB, Merkley + Partners, M+C Saatchi, BBDO, Saatchi, and is currently a fractional CCO, collaborating with mission-driven brands to win hearts, minds, spirits, and wallets.

Jean Batthany LinkedIn Profile
Jean's websites: Art of the Pause and Jean Batthany Creative
Jean's TEDx Talk

In this episode of Thriving in the Messy Middle, host Amy P Wilkins explores the dynamic between surviving and thriving, shedding light on how to transition effectively from a state of merely getting by and into a more empowered leadership state. She refers to a thought-provoking conversation with recent podcast guest, Melissa Grady Dias, which redefines thriving as a conscious choice rather than a passive occurrence. Amy shares her personal experiences of overcoming adversity by shifting her mindset, seeking support, and embracing authenticity. 

Survival mode is described as a state where priorities shift towards immediate needs, often at the expense of creativity and growth. Amy emphasizes how our brains are wired to focus narrowly during survival, affecting mental, physical, and relational well-being. Conversely, thriving is characterized by openness and possibility, with research underpinning how feeling supported broadens our thinking and enhances creativity. By providing personal anecdotes and evidence-backed insights, the episode serves as both a warning and a guide. Amy offers actionable steps for listeners to recognize when protective instincts have overstayed their welcome and to consider taking small yet impactful steps toward personal and professional flourishing.

• Thriving isn't an accidental result; it's a deliberate choice made continuously, with palpable differences from survival mode.
• Surviving can narrow perception and suppress creativity, whereas thriving fosters innovation and openness.
• Recognize survival mode not as an enemy but as a signal to explore and reflect on what truly matters.
• Small, decisive actions, like seeking external support, can catalyze a transition towards thriving.
• Shifting from survival to thrive mode involves finding your voice, building momentum, and sharing your truth with trusted networks.

Survival mode can sneak up on you.
Survival mode actually does serve a purpose.
Thriving isn't something that just happens. It's something we choose.
Survival mode can sneak up on you… and if we stay there too long, it starts to cost us.
When you're in thrive mode, something opens… it literally unlocks possibility.
The shift from surviving to thriving will be worth it.
When we're in survival mode, our brain actually narrows what we can see and process.
If we stay there too long, it starts to cost us. It impacts us physically, mentally, and relationally."

Podcast Related to this Episode
Thriving in the Messy Middle E22 featuring Guest Melissa Grady Dias: The Hidden Tension Behind Great Leadership: Fear and Excitement

Mentioned in this Episode
Science loosely referenced: Broaden & Build - Barbara Fredrickson
https://www.verywellmind.com/broaden-and-build-theory-4845903 - This article references her work and explains what the Broaden & Build Theory is all about.

Polyvagal theory is not named, but the gist of it is expressed

In this Messy Middle Moment, host Amy P Wilkins delves into the importance of authenticity and transparency as a leader. Amy candidly shares a personal story about a challenging day that serves to highlight the pressures leaders face to appear perfect, and how showing vulnerability can positively impact workplace culture. She reflects on how leaders inadvertently model behaviors that either empower or inhibit their teams. This episode provides a safe space for women leaders to glean insights into effectively navigating life's uncertainties without losing their core identity.

Throughout the episode, Amy emphasizes that true leadership is not about maintaining a perfect exterior but about being real and relatable. Amy uses her own experiences to unpack themes of vulnerability, creativity, and the freedom that comes with embracing imperfection. By allowing others to see the "messy" parts of leadership, Amy contends that leaders can foster environments where their teams feel empowered to be innovative and open. This thought-provoking episode connects with listeners who find themselves in the throes of the "messy middle," encouraging them to embrace these moments with confidence and grace.

• Authentic leadership involves showing vulnerability and admitting imperfection.
• Embracing the "messy" parts of life can foster a more creative and open environment within teams.
• The way leaders present themselves impacts workplace culture, including attitudes toward rest, uncertainty, and accountability.
• Leadership isn't about having all the answers; it's about creating a safe space for others to contribute and grow.
• Consistently projecting perfection can hinder honest communication and stifle creativity.

When we let a little bit of the messy show, we give people permission to be human.
If we pretend we always have the answer, people learn to hide their uncertainty.
What we make visible as leaders matters.
Leadership asks for presence. It asks for accountability, but it doesn't ask us to be perfect.
Creativity lives in spaces where people feel safe enough to speak, to try, not to have it all figured out.

In this engaging episode of Thriving in the Messy Middle, host Amy P Wilkins speaks with Kenetta Bailey, a respected marketing leader, about navigating uncertainty and transitions in both professional and personal life. Kenetta shares her journey from thriving as a high-level marketer for renowned brands like Pepsi and Sony to overcoming personal trials. She emphasizes the importance of remaining open to new opportunities and how her career path has been shaped by unexpected yet fortuitous challenges. With experience across diverse industries, Kenetta highlights her adaptability and strategic leadership style that have propelled her success.

Amidst the backdrop of career transitions, Kenetta recounts a pivotal messy middle moment involving personal upheaval when her father's health declined. She speaks candidly about stepping away from her professional life to take care of her aging parents, an experience that was both challenging and growth-inducing. Throughout this personal story, Kenetta underscores the significance of prioritizing what truly matters, learning from experiences, and being unapologetically true to oneself. As the conversation evolves, the focus shifts to adapting in dynamic professional landscapes, like adopting AI technologies and navigating organizational changes, and how these instances underscore the necessity of continuous learning and flexibility in the workplace. Discover insights on career agility, the importance of vulnerability, and embracing change with courage and resilience. The conversation touches on leadership, the evolving landscape of AI, and finding balance in life's messy middle moments.

• Adaptability in Career Transitions: Kanetta discusses the importance of being adaptable and open to seizing new opportunities while turning challenges into stepping stones for career growth.
• Prioritizing Personal Responsibilities: The episode delves into Kanetta's decision to take a professional hiatus to care for her parents, illustrating the importance of prioritizing family and well-being.
• Leading Through Change: Insights into leading teams through organizational shifts, focusing on transparency and the transferability of skills to navigate transitions effectively.
• Unlearning and Relearning: Emphasis on the necessity to continuously evolve in the face of technological advancements such as AI, highlighting the importance of being proactive and adaptive.
• Personal and Professional Support Systems: The significance of building a robust network, or a 'personal board of directors,' for guidance in both personal and professional spheres.

I've never been afraid of a challenge. If you challenge me, I'm taking you up on it.
We've got to be comfortable being uncomfortable.
Taking care of the people who took care of me made me a better and more compassionate leader.
You can't take yourself too seriously all the time. You've got to protect your mental health.
Be yourself, but always be true to who you are and what's important to you.
I love to give people advice if they are seeking it, but I don't mean that my advice is the only way that something could be done.

Mentioned in this Episode

Kenetta Bailey is a global marketing, communications, and growth executive with 25+ years of experience building and transforming B2B and B2C brands across advertising, media, consumer packaged goods, and entertainment. Known for driving revenue and building high-performing teams, she has a track record of delivering measurable results, from audience growth and digital innovation to product launches and P&L management, for some of the world's most recognized companies.

Most recently, Kenetta served as SVP, Marketing at Clear Channel Outdoor Americas, where she led a high-performing team to create data-driven content, enterprise storytelling, and integrated ad sales and product marketing materials, generating multi-million-dollar revenue growth through a full marketing mix including SEO, paid search, and AI-powered search strategies across the company's 28-market footprint. She transformed and relaunched the company's social and digital presence into lead-generating platforms, co-championed CSR and partnership marketing with national nonprofit organizations, and was selected by the CEO to define and implement the company's Mission, Vision, and Values, then led the cross- functional effort to cascade them through the culture, driving measurable improvements in employee engagement and retention.

Prior to Clear Channel, Kenetta held senior marketing leadership roles at CBS Radio, WPP/GroupM, Comcast/TV One, AMC Networks, NBC Universal, and Sony Music, and began her career in consumer packaged goods at PepsiCo and Kraft. Across these roles, she drove brand reinventions, launched new networks, won major global accounts, and delivered double- and triple-digit growth.

Today, Kenetta is the Founder of The Marketing Den, a consultancy delivering strategy, AI- powered MarComms, growth marketing, media, and digital services to B2B, B2C, and nonprofit clients.

Beyond her executive career, Kenetta has served on the boards of the Alliance for Women in Media, Arts Horizons, New Classrooms, and Planned Parenthood Federation of America, and taught persuasive and crisis communications to MBA students at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania. Kenetta holds a bachelor's and master's degree in journalism from Northwestern University's Medill School and an MBA from the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern.

Kenetta Bailey LinkedIn Profile

In this episode of Thriving in the Messy Middle, hosted by leadership coach Amy P Wilkins, listeners are invited to explore the often-overlooked phases of discomfort and uncertainty in their leadership journeys. Inspired by the conversation with Viktoria Degtar, Amy addresses the inevitable moments in life when things seem messy and unclear, offering insights into how distinguishing among types of discomfort can lead to personal growth. This solo episode stands out as it delves into the nuanced differences between expansive and depleting discomfort, urging listeners to carefully assess their emotions and energy to understand which path they are on.

Throughout the discussion, Amy unravels the complex emotions tied to discomfort, a necessary part of growth and change, and the courage it takes to assess whether such discomfort is truly pushing one forward or simply a signal of misalignment. As she reflects on personal experiences, she notes key triggers that helped her discern when to embrace challenges and when to recognize situations that were detrimental to her well-being. This theme resonates heavily with women leaders striving to reconcile personal empowerment with professional growth in unpredictable environments. Join her in understanding how to identify and move through these pivotal moments, leading with awareness and choice.

• Understanding Discomfort: Recognize that not all discomfort signals growth; distinguish between expansive and depleting discomfort to navigate life's challenges effectively.
• Energy as a Signal: Use your energy levels as an indicator: expansive discomfort energizes and motivates, while depleting discomfort drains and disconnects.
• Reflection and Awareness: Stay reflective and aware in the 'messy middle' to discern the lessons or signals your discomfort may be sending you.
• Growth vs. Harm: Growth can be uncomfortable, but it's crucial to identify when discomfort is actually harmful rather than constructive.
• Self-trust: Build self-trust and awareness to make informed decisions that honor your personal and professional well-being.

If you're feeling uncomfortable, you're probably right where you need to be.
Not all discomfort is the same…some can feel like expansion, some like depletion.
The hardest part isn't being uncomfortable; it's knowing which kind you're in.
Expansive discomfort might feel scary, but there's still a sense of possibility.
Because this is the messy middle, the part of the journey where things aren't clear where you're in it, but you don't yet know what it's here to teach you.
For me, it comes down to energy. Expansive discomfort might feel scary, but there's still a sense of possibility.

Mentioned in this Episode
Thriving in the Messy Middle E26 The Truth About Leading Through Uncertainty with guest Viktoria Degtar

In this episode of Thriving in the Messy Middle, host Amy P Wilkins engages in a vibrant conversation with Michele Fino, a strategist renowned for her ability to bridge the realms of marketing and entertainment. Michele sheds light on her unique journey transitioning from corporate roles to running her own consultancy where she helps brands, nonprofits, and tech companies convey their stories through innovative content strategies.

Michele's experience as a seasoned storyteller and consultant provides a window into the blend of creativity, leadership, and adaptability needed to succeed. Key topics include navigating the intersection of motherhood and career, the revolution in professional environments brought about by AI, and the importance of authenticity and making meaningful connections. With a particular focus on work-life balance, personal growth, and professional development, Michele offers practical advice for thriving during chaotic times and how meaningful storytelling can drive change and engage audiences. Through this episode, Amy creates a thoughtful space to explore pivotal moments and the challenges of the "messy middle" that women leaders often navigate.

• Balancing Roles: Michelle shares the intricate balance between being a mom and a marketing leader, illustrating the unique challenges and strategies in managing diverse responsibilities.
• Career Transitions: Her leap from structured employment to establishing a consultancy highlights adaptability and creativity—keys to mastering the transition from employee to entrepreneur.
• Navigating AI: The episode delves into how AI is transforming marketing, offering insights into leveraging technology while mitigating associated workforce challenges.
• Storytelling & Strategy: Michelle emphasizes the power of storytelling in marketing, illustrating how purpose-driven strategies can bring brands to life.
• Valuable Networking: Personal connections and remembered details about others can significantly enrich professional relationships and open doors to new opportunities.

I like working for myself and helping as many companies as I possibly can.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results.
Get out there and meet people. Remember something about them.
The value of a firm handshake, eye contact, and a smile. You don't get that from staying in a cube all day for nine hours.
It's important to know what you're good at and what you're not good at.

Mentioned in this Episode
Beth Comstock 

Michele Fino is the principal of her own minority owned, woman-run Branded Entertainment strategy consultancy.  She is a Creative & Connected Strategic StorySeller. She helps brands, non-profits, production companies, media companies, tech companies, and networks with their content strategy and their StorySelling.  She speaks at major conferences, runs thoughtful roundtables at events, & jumps in for creative ideations at agencies & brands. She believes that great storytelling can elicit behavior change. . . but people have to see it first.  She is an idea generator that also plans, makes the right connections & writes deal terms for branded content, distribution, and marketing.  

She lives on the UES of NYC, has three kids, and owns a lot of gym shoes, but does not belong to an actual gym.

Michele Fino Website
Michele Fino LinkedIn Profile

In this Messy Middle Moment, host Amy P Wilkins shares a deeply personal journey through professional challenges. With a history as a leadership coach and former media executive, Amy unravels a story many women encounter: a dramatic career transition that shook her confidence. The episode sheds light on the toll of toxic work environments and the slow erosion of self-belief, culminating in a profound session with an industrial psychologist. The conversation evokes a reflection on the values of resilience, validation, and self-awareness in overcoming professional setbacks and finding one's true path.

The narrative continues with Amy's strategic career pivot, choosing a seemingly smaller role that prioritized her mental well-being and self-healing. This decision defies conventional wisdom but highlights the importance of safety and groundedness in rebuilding confidence. Amy eloquently articulates the necessity of grieving career losses and how processing these emotions is crucial to thriving in new opportunities. Her insights cater to women leaders facing transitions, encouraging them to pause, reflect, and embrace the winding road to leadership. Through compelling storytelling and actionable advice, the episode resonates with those navigating their messy middle while striving for growth and authenticity.

• Toxic work environments can significantly undermine self-worth and confidence, often without immediate realization.
• Validation from external observers can act as a catalyst for self-reflection and change.
• Embracing career transitions, even if they seem like a step back, can offer a crucial space for healing and personal growth.
• Grieving the loss of a professional identity or role is essential, even when the departure was beneficial.
• Leadership is a winding path, demanding pauses and reflection to truly thrive in uncertain times.

Thriving isn't about having it all figured out. It's about learning how to grow, lead, and move forward, even when things feel messy.
You've just described a morally bankrupt organization. You need to ask yourself why you're still here.
Whenever something ends, even something that needed to end, there is still a loss.
Not a straight line forward, but moments where something ends, and you're asked to pause, process, and begin again.
You rebuild it by honoring what was.

Thriving in the Messy Middle Podcast Mentioned In This Episode
A Redirection: The Truth About the Right Path for You, with featured guest Adrienne Valencia Garcia, a lawyer and transformational career coach. 

In this riveting episode of Thriving in the Messy Middle, host Amy P. Wilkins invites Joh Morris Benichou, a powerhouse in personal transformation, to share her insights and experiences. Joh, CEO of Sensory Leadership, reflects on her transformative journey from losing her job and visa to becoming a prominent leadership coach. They discuss the inevitable messiness of life's transitions and how to navigate them with grace and resilience. Amy and Joh delve into the importance of trusting one's instincts and recognizing personal power, especially for women leaders who often juggle multiple responsibilities and societal expectations.

Joh recounts a deeply personal and challenging period in her life that emphasized the importance of listening to her intuition and believing in her worth. Through Joh's story, the episode emphasizes that transformation doesn't happen in solitude but through community, resources, and self-awareness. As the conversation unfolds, Amy and Joh explore the value of guidance, the often hidden narratives of women's ambition, and the shift needed in corporate culture to truly honor women's multifaceted roles and potential leadership contributions.

• Trust Your Instincts: Joh emphasizes the power of listening to one's inner voice, especially during uncertain phases of life.
• Value Yourself: Recognizing personal worth is crucial for women to step into leadership roles and invest in their development.
• Community and Support: Transformation is communal; leaning on others and seeking guidance are vital steps toward personal growth.
• Courage to Evolve: Moving forward through messy transitions requires courage and openness to see and improve upon our perceived limitations.
• Corporate Culture Shift: A discussion on how the corporate world must adjust its metrics to better appreciate women's true contributions and challenges.

Most people meet you once you have succeeded. They don't see you before the success.
I was a woman on a mission. I just didn't know what the mission was.
Thriving isn't about having it all figured out. It's about learning how to grow, lead, and move forward, even when things feel messy.
Women only take themselves on when they realize that they are of value.
You have the full range of being available. You just haven't accessed the full range.
It took me a lot of courage to be an entrepreneur.

Mentioned in this Episode
Women in the Workplace: McKinsey and Lean In Report (discussed in relation to women's leadership and ambition)

Joh Morris Benichou is a leadership activation speaker and the founder of With Joh, where she works with executives, founders, and organizations to transform how leaders sustain performance under pressure. With over 30 years of experience and having worked with more than 50,000 leaders globally, Joh is known for creating powerful in-the-room shifts that restore clarity, energy, and presence.

Trained directly by Werner Erhard, Joh spent years leading large-scale transformational programs before evolving her own methodology, Sensory Leadership—a practice that goes beyond mindset and strategy to fundamentally change how leaders experience themselves in high-stakes environments.

Today, she works directly with executives, leads leadership activations, executive immersions, and private retreats, and is the creator of Tirtha, a global community for women in leadership. Her work focuses on helping high-performing leaders sustain results without burnout and lead with greater impact, resilience, and authenticity.

Joh's Website
Experience Tirtha
Joh Morris Benichou LinkedIn Profile

Amy P Wilkins, leadership coach and host of Thriving in the Messy Middle, explores the dynamics of giving and receiving support in leadership. She discusses how women often shoulder responsibilities and hesitate to ask for help, and highlights the power of allowing others to contribute. Through personal insights and coaching experiences, Amy emphasizes that accepting support fosters collaboration, trust, and growth. She encourages leaders to embrace vulnerability and shared ownership, underscoring the importance of being part of the giving-receiving loop. 

The episode provides a compassionate yet firm reminder that allowing others to contribute isn't a weakness but rather an integral part of effective leadership. With her insightful perspective, Amy provides a safe space for listeners to slow down, identify what's truly going on, and maintain their authenticity amidst uncertainty. This episode is rich in reflections on the hurdles women face in balancing leadership roles and personal well-being. 

• The concept of being a 'giver' in leadership often leads women to avoid asking for help, hindering personal and team growth.
• Allowing others to contribute can deepen collaboration, improve trust, and lead to more effective leadership.
• Recognizing the importance of receiving help can transform it from feeling burdensome to an act of generosity and connection.
• Leadership involves setting an example and enabling others to step up, thereby reinforcing shared ownership and confidence.
• Thriving in transitional phases involves more than having it all figured out; it's about learning, adapting, and remaining true to one's values.

The very thing that feels uncomfortable for you is the thing you love offering to others.
Letting someone help isn't a sign of weakness but an opportunity for both parties to connect and engage.
Sometimes the most powerful thing you can do as a leader is to let folks in, let them contribute, and be a part of the outcome.
Receiving help was never meant to be a one-way experience. It's a loop. And you're meant to be part of all of it.
Giving isn't just generous, it's regulating and meaningful.
People don't learn to step up in environments where no one ever lets them.

In this engaging episode of Thriving in the Messy Middle, host Amy P Wilkins chats with Viktoria Degtar, a powerhouse in the media industry known for her leadership and innovation. Amy and Viktoria delve into the complexities of leading through disruption, with Viktoria sharing insights from her illustrious career, which includes key roles at Martha Stewart Living and Time. Despite her impressive journey, Viktoria highlights the importance of staying grounded and the critical role of maintaining a robust support network, both personally and professionally.

The episode explores several themes, including navigating career challenges, embracing change, and leading with intention during uncertain times. Viktoria speaks candidly about her early career lessons and how she was shaped by mentors and rigorous training environments. They also discuss the current state of the media industry, emphasizing the importance of adaptability and continuous learning, especially with the rise of AI technologies. Viktoria reflects on how maintaining clear communication and building strong team relationships can drive success even in the most challenging landscapes.

• Embrace Learning and Growth: Viktoria shares how early career challenges can be profound learning opportunities, illustrating the importance of continuous professional development.
• Leadership and Adaptability: In uncertain times, effective leadership requires flexibility and the ability to pivot quickly when things don't go as planned.
• Support Networks Are Essential: The importance of cultivating strong personal and professional support networks for navigating career and life challenges is highlighted.
• Leverage Change as an Opportunity: Viktoria emphasizes the value of viewing industry disruptions as opportunities for growth and innovation rather than obstacles.
• Transparent Communication: Reinforces the need for leaders to maintain open lines of communication to build trust and loyalty within teams during periods of change.

Go back to basics. That's where I learned how to negotiate.
Never expect perfection or certainty. It rarely arrives.
A good idea can come from anything and anywhere on any level.
If anyone ever tells you that there is a balance between work and home, they're lying through their teeth. 
If you want to make a change, if you want to make a big difference, then you need to take some big swings.
At the end of the day, if you're feeling uncomfortable, you're probably exactly where you need to be.
The future is completely unpredictable.
You need a really good, solid sounding board around you.
Don't do the job you have. Do the job you want.
You don't need to have all the answers, but you need to be able to have momentum.
I always try to hire people who are smarter than me. Always.

A powerhouse in media transformation, Viktoria Degtar has spent 30+ years scaling businesses, breaking into new markets, and driving double-digit revenue growth. As Global Chief Business Officer at TIME, she redefined monetization, rebuilt the global sales organization, and skyrocketed international revenue by 300%—now nearly half of TIME's total. She's the force behind commercializing major editorial franchises like TIME100 NEXT, TIME100 Health, and the TIME100 Impact Awards across the UAE, Singapore, and Africa. Previously, as Bloomberg Media's Head of Sales & Marketing for EMEA, Viktoria reversed years of revenue decline, turning the region into Bloomberg's top global performer while spearheading expansion into the Middle East and Africa. She's also held leadership roles at The Huffington Post, Martha Stewart Living Omnimedia, and the Financial Times, consistently driving growth, digital reinvention, and market breakthroughs. A bold strategist and dealmaker, Viktoria excels at scaling businesses, forging high-impact partnerships, and pioneering revenue innovation in an evolving media landscape.

Viktoria Degtar LinkedIn Profile