The Intentional Career Podcast – Détails, épisodes et analyse

Tarzan Kay came to a pivotal moment in 2022 when she had to drastically change her email marketing business. I talked to her when she was fresh off those changes, curious about how she had the courage to get through it. We talk about unethical sales methods, my shocking discovery that we both grew up in the same cult, and how this has affected our businesses.

I’m your host, Karen Styles, Career + Life Coach and owner of Flow + Fire Coaching. 

My guest is Tarzan Kay. Tarzan is an email marketing expert who teaches how to sell big with truth-infused, story-based emails. She is a former copywriter-for-hire who specializes in emails that are fun to read, and more addictive than Netflix. 

Her online courses teach how to write story-based copy and make consistent sales from a small email list, without using fear or FOMO.  Her company’s mission is to make high-integrity marketing the new status quo for online business.

Interview Highlights:

• Tarzan’s work in email marketing
• When I realized I grew up in the same cult as Tarzan
• How growing up in a coercive control group affects work
• The changes Tarzan has made in her work, after being called in
• The drastic changes she recently made to her business
• Why anti-racism and anti-oppression work is important for the coaching industry

More about Tarzan:

• Tarzan Kay - Website | Instagram

Subscribe!

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• For more episodes, check out The Intentional Career Podcast website

Connect with Karen

Check out my website at flowandfire.com to schedule a consult, join my email list or hire me as your coach. Or, follow on Instagram or LinkedIn.

In this mini-episode, I share my musings on the potential cost of not listening to yourself. Why does ignoring your desires matter anyway? Hint: it’s connected to Career Courage.

I’m your host, Karen Styles, Career + Life Coach, and owner of Flow + Fire Coaching. 

Highlights:

• Realizing I wasn’t listening to my desires
• Wondering why I don’t listen
• Why does listening to yourself even matter?
• How is listening to yourself connected to Career Courage?

Subscribe!

• Subscribe on Apple Podcasts
• Subscribe on Spotify
• For more episodes, check out The Intentional Career Podcast website

Connect with Karen

Check out my website at flowandfire.com to schedule a consult, join my email list or hire me as your coach. Or, follow on Instagram or LinkedIn.

In light of the “Great Resignation,” interviewing is a skill that matters more than ever. Host Karen Styles discusses this recent trend of quitting and shares her 3 steps to Intentional Interviews.

I’m your host, Karen Styles, Career + Life Coach and owner of Flow + Fire Coaching. Ready to create your Intentional Career? Schedule a call with me.

Interview Highlights:

[01:10]  The “Great Resignation” and how it relates to interviewing.

[05:20]  Step 1 - Know what you want.

[08:12]  Step 2 - Gather and prepare stories.

[13:10]  Step 3 - Say it out loud (ideally to another human).

[19:05]  Looking for interview help? I’d love to support you. Check out my Intentional Interview 1 Day, 1:1 Training. 

Resources:

• Intentional Interview :1 Day Training - Website
• “The Great Resignation: How Employers Drove Workers to Quit” - Article

Subscribe!

• Subscribe on Apple Podcasts
• Subscribe on Spotify
• For more episodes, check out The Intentional Career Podcast website

Schedule a Call

Ready to hire a coach and create your Intentional Career? Schedule a call with Karen Styles, Career and Life Coach and owner of Flow + Fire Coaching.

Follow

Follow Karen on Instagram, Facebook, or LinkedIn.

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Transcription - 3 Steps to Intentional Interview

I’m Karen Styles and this is the Intentional Career Podcast. I talk to all kinds of people who take all kinds of paths to work they love. I'm a career and life coach and owner of Flow +Fire coaching. If you’re ready to create your intentional career with the support of a coach, schedule a call with me. There’s a link in the show notes or go to intentionalcareer.co and click the blue “Schedule a Call” button. 

Karen (2): Hello and welcome to episode nine of the intentional career podcast. I'm so excited you are here with me because I wanted to chat about something that is really important. In my humble opinion, that is interviewing and in particular, making sure that when you interview, you have an intentional interview. So I wanted to share my three steps for an intentional interview, and I bring this up because I've been thinking a lot about and reading about and chatting with people about the great resignation.

And I'm not sure if you've heard this term. We've definitely been talking about it since the spring, in career development, HR, talent management circles. And it is this ongoing trend of folks choosing to leave their positions. And, at first glance, it might seem kind of strange.

Considering there have been mass layoffs around the world, during the pandemic, and whatnot. And now we're also seeing, for the folks who have kept their job. Are looking to leave. And I remember thinking, and even chatting with a couple of friends about it early on in the pandemic, maybe, you know, May of 2020, thinking, there must be a lot of people who are evaluating their work right now.

Right? Who are thinking, hmm, if I was putting off life or putting off things and saying, well, it's okay, I'm going to deal with it later. Looking at the results of a pandemic, the whole world shifted. Bunch of ways. And people are really thinking about what they want and maybe they don't want to put off their careers or maybe they've had enough. Right? Maybe they have had enough of having a job. That's good enough. That's good enough on paper. Or, you know, really evaluating, how was I treated during the pandemic? Did my employer, did they care about my safety? Was I supported if I had kids and needed to homeschool?

There are so many ways that this affected us and we realize how much our work affects us and how work and lives are intertwined. And so I think the folks who were maybe putting off a decision to leave are now potentially fed up and leaving. In April 2021 alone, the US labor department stated that 4 million people left their jobs.

That's only in the US and that's only in April. And there are many more stats out there. I believe that Microsoft did a global survey of their employees worldwide and found that 40, I believe it's 40% of employees were planning to leave their role in the next six months. So that's a lot.

So there are a lot of people leaving and there are a lot of people thinking about leaving and when you're looking to land a new role, the interview is a big part of that because let's be honest, people hire you or make an offer after they have met you. 

I have worked with many, many people. I have done interview training for the last six years. Honestly, it's one of my favorite things to do. And, over those years, I've worked with hundreds of people literally. And what I love about training for an interview is that I start to see people get more clear on who they are and what they're good at when they are forced to talk about it. Maybe forced is the wrong word, but kind of, you know, a lot of times you, maybe don't have to talk about your work or communicate what you're good at, or get into the details of how you do what you do, but when you're in an interview, you do. And the interesting thing is that it can be a real confidence builder, and it can really help you identify the work you're good at, the work you love. And really, I do think that interview training and going through the interview process can lead you to work you love. 

All that to say, coming back to my three steps for an intentional interview. So step number one is to know what you want.

This might go to before you're actually interviewed. It might even be before you start your job search, if you're going into a job search, but think about what it is you want from your next role from your next position? What do you want it to look like?

What do you want it to feel like? And this takes some time. And if you don't know right now, there are some things that you can think about or ask yourself things like, what size of a company might be great to work for? What kind of team dynamics do I want? Do you want to be on a large team or a smaller team?

Do you want to be more of a solo contributor? Do you want to lead other people? You know, the relationship aspect of it. What kind of elements of company culture are you looking for? What are the activities that you want to be doing in your day to day? So that might relate to your skills and the things that you enjoy doing.

It's worth reflecting on your past experiences, sometimes just take some time to, but it's so valuable to go back and think through the times in the past, or you felt really great at work, right? Where are the, what were the things that you were doing? What were the relationships that you had? What were the things that made you proud? So identify those pieces from the past to say, there are these elements that I would like to experience again. 

And on the other hand, there might be things that you don't want to experience again. You might know that there are certain things you don't want to do, people you don't want to work with, or companies that you're not interested in, and both sides of those things are important. There might also be things that you don't know about yet, things that you want to experience that you haven't, that might be question marks. Those might be things that you try to learn about through the interview process or through your networking.

You can get a lot of clues from your past experience about what you want in the future. So, that's step number one, know what you want before you even get into a job search. Know what you're looking for, right? Take a proactive approach. And this means that you're not just going out and looking for job postings and applying that's really reactive, but thinking in advance.

You know: What are the companies? What are the types of work? What are the roles? What are the people? Those kinds of things have that goal in mind for yourself before you begin step number two. 

After what you want, step number two is you will want to prepare and gather stories from your past work experience because these are the things that you're going to talk about in the interview. So think about the things that you are proud of. And maybe I should take a step back for a second and mention that a lot of job search is remembering. Sometimes we don't remember all of the many, many things that we've done over our work life so we need to take the time to remember and write it down.

It's really helpful to keep this in one place, start a Google document or something like that so that you can start gathering your stories, putting them all together in one place, and you don't have to start from scratch every time you go to an interview. So, start gathering stories and you might start just by brainstorming.

What are the things you're proud of? Where were times that you felt proud or felt really alive or felt good in your work? Think of the things that you've achieved. Those might be things that you personally feel proud of. They might be things that your colleagues have complimented you for, maybe things that were noticed in an annual review. Try to remember all that stuff. The stuff does take time, but as you get into kind of digging through your memories, you will start to discover and remember those things. 

And if you are having a hard time, remember it's worth connecting and having a conversation with maybe current or past colleagues and ask them, what am I good at? What am I known for? What do you come to me for help with or advice on those types of things? 

I find that very often, and this was something I learned early in my career from my former district manager and now good friend, Dani — shout out to Dani. She mentioned to me that many times when a person is good at something, they discount it. They think, oh, well, everybody does that. That's normal. Anyone would do this, but that's often not true. 

So, people who are good at their work discount the quality of their work, and that's why we need other people to remind us of it, right? They might say, oh, you're you are so good at remembering the names and the details of everyone you meet and you might think, well, that's normal. That's what everyone should do. But no, if that's something that you do and it could have a really big impact on your role, on your company, on how people feel around you. And so this is why it's so important to have that feedback from other people in our lives who tell us that we're good at something.

And have them maybe explain why, if you're like, well, that's not a big deal, ask more questions and see what they say, and you'll get an insight. The things that are obvious to you, they're normal. Those things that you are really great at, and that are really easy for you. They're often not easy for other people. And that's how you make a difference in your work. 

Other stories to gather would be challenges that you overcame, right? And as I'm saying this, you might have things come to mind immediately, maybe really crappy days or crappy periods in your work life where, you know, something happened that you weren't happy about or that you couldn't control, and you didn't know what to do about. Pay attention to those.

Write them down, start to think about how did I get through that? How did my team get through that? What did we do? What did I learn? You're going to get a lot of really helpful information from those stories. You might even think of things that you did wrong or areas where you made mistakes. Even though those are not fun to look back at.

We often find, I do anyways, sometimes we learn a lot from mistakes. Right? We learn to maybe change our course of action for the future. So all of those areas can be helpful to look at, you know, another side of that too, there might not be big mistakes, but there might be things where you reflect on a situation and looking back a few years after, hindsight is 2020, you might go back and do things differently.

So reflecting on past experiences, that can be really helpful in terms of gathering the stories that you're going to talk about during that interview. So once you know what you want, and you've started to gather your stories. The third step is to say it out loud. And what I mean is, say your interview answers out loud.

So you might have a list of interview questions. If you're a few years into your career, you have a good idea of what interview questions are going to be asked. You may have an idea of the questions that are asked in your industry. Make sure that you practice giving your answers out loud, preferably to another human being.

Maybe this is obvious, but I'm mentioning it anyway because I know that for a lot of folks, the interview. Preparation is maybe writing down their stories, writing down notes, writing down points or details, and thinking about how they would answer it, but they don't actually get to the step of saying that answer out loud.

And it's really important because speaking and writing are different communication mediums. And often when we go to talk about something. It comes out differently than we would have written it down. And actually, that's okay. But it's the spoken part that needs to be practiced. It's not a document that needs to be edited.

For those folks who might try to write down an exact script, I guess if that works for you, that's okay. I wouldn't necessarily, that wouldn't be my advice. 

I think the problem that can come with memorization is that if you've written a script and you're kind of halfway through your story, you might hit a point where you're like, oh no, I forgot. I forgot a point. And you're trying to remember your script and that can stress you out and that won't help you in the interview. What we want to do is practice speaking those stories out loud, getting comfortable, sharing those stories in those answers, and making sure we're clear on the verbal delivery of those stories.

So the reason I suggest saying it out loud to another person is when we tell a story, we often have a lot of background information in our minds that seems obvious to us. And so we don't actually fill in all the details that are necessary for the listener to hear. And so that might mean that the story or the answer doesn't have the impact that it could have because we've left out details.

And when I'm working with clients I'll have this happen a lot, to be honest. So I'll hear an interview answer and the biggest thing that comes up when I know that an answer isn't having the impact that it could, is that I listen and I kind of think, I don't get it. Either I don't get it, or so what? Like, okay, you've answered the question, but so what? 

However, I have learned that if you've chosen a story and you want to tell that story as an answer for an interview question, usually there's a reason there is an important story to be told there. And when I ask a few more questions, I usually discover more details that really give more impact. So it's so helpful to tell a story to someone and give an interview answer.

And if they're not a coach, they might just go straight to giving you advice, but ask them, does this story make sense, right? And if there's anything that you're like, well, I don't get it. Well, why did you do this? Or why did this? Or I, you know, how long did this happen over? What was the time period? Those were a lot of the questions that I ask when I'm listening to an interview answer.

When you say it out loud to another person, you're going to find out what the impact is. And that's the whole point of this interview conversation, right? That you're communicating something and it has to land somewhere. And you don't know if it lands, if someone else doesn't hear it. So this is where the hypothetical story that we think is working in our mind.

Sometimes it falls flat when we say it out loud because we haven't had the practice doing that. And if you don't have another person that you can talk to. Here's one of the tricks that I offer to a lot of my clients: use your phone, grab your phone, turn on your video or use a voice recorder and answer an interview question, take something like, tell me about yourself, answer that question into your phone and listen back too. And I can guarantee that once you listen back, there's a certain amount of objectivity that comes from listening to it. You'll think, oh, that doesn't make sense. Oh, I need to add a detail. Oh, I could remove this. And it's so, so, so helpful the saying it out loud. This is the biggest thing I'm always telling people, trying to beat it into people's heads.

You've got to say the words out loud in your preparation. Actually, that's where I separate preparation from practice. So preparation might be this brainstorming, detailing the stories, getting the notes, getting them down, thinking about what you want to say. The practice is the part where you say it out loud.

The practice part is as important as the preparation. And I think a lot of folks miss that step because it's that final delivery that's really gonna make an impact in that conversation. So say it out loud, preferably to another human being. And of course, I'm going to bring this back to my practice because it is my podcast after all, but, If you're looking for help on interviewing, I would love to support you if you need the person to say it out loud too, or to pull the details out.

If you're not having success, if you feel like you're struggling, trying to do this on your own, I would love to be the person to help you. 

And in my intentional interview, one day training, you can work with me one-on-one and what we do is get you completely ready for an interview all with one day. That's right. We can do it all in one day.

So, if you are feeling like your interview preparation is all over the place, you want to feel in control. If you're not sure what impression that you're leaving in an interview, you want to be sure. If you haven't interviewed in a while and you really want to brush up, that's great for that.

As well, if you keep interviewing, but finding you're not getting offers, it might be somewhere in that delivery. So working with me as your interviewer really could help. And as a former recruiter and as someone who's trained hundreds of people, I really want to help you with your interview as well.

And I want your interview to feel better. I want you to know what impression you're leaving and know that you're leaving a really positive lasting impression. I want you to feel confident that you are speaking clearly about why you're a great candidate. And to know that you've got compelling work stories to share in that interview.

So what happens? What's included in intentional interview training? What we do in one day is we brainstorm and review your experience, your skills, and really what that's going to do is remind you why you're an excellent candidate for the role. Interviewing four. I will introduce some simple frameworks that are going to help you speak clearly and confidently and communicate the message that you want to communicate.

I'm also going to listen really closely to your answers and identify where you need to tweak communication. Like I talked about before, if you tell me a story and it gives me a "so what" feeling I'm going to ask some questions. This is a big part of what I do. I listen. I usually slow down people where they're blowing past the details that are really important.

And I pull those things out so that we can add the evidence and add the impact to that story. You'll also complete your very own interview guidebook, where you'll keep all of your notes and you'll have that for your current and future interviews. We'll also finish with a mock interview where you get to put that all together and practice delivering what you've learned.

I do this virtually. We do meet over zoom and it's one-on-one. So it's just you and me for one day, roughly five hours, including breaks. And we just get you ready. So whether you have an interview coming up soon, or whether you want to just get this practice and start feeling more confident about your job search and your interviewing, this is for you. 

I want to help you feel clear and confident in your interviews. 

So to recap, the three steps to an intentional interview. Number one, know what you want from your next position. Step two, prepare and gather stories about your achievements, challenges, things you've learned. Number three, say it out loud -- your interview answers, your interview stories. Practice, practice, practice, speaking that out loud. 

And if you want to have the confidence of knowing that your next interview will be a great interview, apply now for my intentional interview, one day training, I will put the links in the show notes.

Let's make it happen.

I want to make sure that your next interview is an intentional interview, that you feel authentic and confident about sharing your work stories and knowing that you make an impact in what you do. 

Links to the intentional interview one day training are in the show notes. 

And I'll be back in two weeks with the next episode. Thanks for joining me.

Thank you so much for listening. It means so much that you spend part of your day with me. If you enjoyed this episode go to Apple Podcasts and leave a 5 star review. It helps other people find the podcast, and my hope is that if more people find the Intentional Career Podcast, then more people can create their Intentional Careers.

If you’re ready to create your intentional career with the support of a coach, schedule a call with me. There’s a link in the show notes or you can go to intentionalcareer.co and click the blue “Schedule a Call” button in the top right corner. 

Episodes are released every second Wednesday, so I’ll see you in two weeks for more of the Intentional Career Podcast!

Teresa Wong is the author of the graphic memoir Dear Scarlet: The Story of My Postpartum Depression. I’ve known her for over 20 years and was thrilled to interview her about her copywriting career, the process of creating her first book while working at her day job, why graphic narrative is her medium of choice, and why THIS was the story she wanted to tell.

I’m your host, Karen Styles, Career + Life Coach and owner of Flow + Fire Coaching. Ready to create your Intentional Career? Schedule a call with me.

Teresa Wong is the author of the graphic memoir Dear Scarlet: The Story of My Postpartum Depression, a finalist for The City of Calgary W.O. Mitchell Book Prize and longlisted for CBC Canada Reads 2020. Her comics have appeared in The Believer, The Rumpus and Event Magazine. She teaches memoir and comics at Gotham Writers Workshop.

Interview Highlights:

[01:30]  How Teresa’s day job in copywriting is different than creative writing.

[04:40]  Where did the idea for Dear Scarlet come from? How did having 3 kids impact / inspire the way it was written? How did that impact the writing of a graphic narrative?

[8:20] Teresa asks an illustrator to help her with this project, and his reasons for saying “No, you have to do this.” She Googles “how to make a graphic novel” which actually helps a lot. 

[14:00] Karen asks, why tell THIS story, even though you’ve experienced other intense life things (like a house that burnt down and your husband’s stroke) among other major life challenges you’ve had?

17:00 Karen shares how Dear Scarlet made her feel seen and understood, despite not being a mom or dealing with post-partum depression.

[18:11] How the support and belief of other people helped in the bumpy road to getting published, how long publishing takes, and how sharing a manuscript feels like exposing yourself.

[24:00] What encouragement Teresa would give her past self.

[27:20] Why graphic narrative is NOT easier to write than prose.

[30:28] What is Closet Dispatch? Why Teresa decided to write a Substack newsletter during the pandemic, why she wanted to talk about clothes and her relationship to clothes. Teresa & Karen share past and present thoughts about Celine Dion.

[41:43] Teresa’s career crushes.

[46:20] How becoming an author has (and hasn’t) changed Teresa’s career. Why she’s kept her day job and has more jobs than ever before. An upcoming job that will be a big change - Writer in Residence at the University of Calgary.

People and Resources Mentioned:

• Teresa Wong - Website | Instagram | Twitter
• Closet Dispatch (Teresa’s Substack Newsletter) - Website
• Raina Telgemeier - Website | Instagram | Facebook | Twitter
• Kate Beaton “Hark a Vagrant” comic strip - Website | Instagram | Twitter
• Book Women in Clothes by Sheila Heti, Heidi Julavits and Leanne Shapton - Amazon | Goodreads
• Vivek Shreya - Website | Instagram | Twitter
• Roxanne Gay - Website | Facebook | Twitter
• Nicole Georges - Website | Instagram | Facebook | Twitter
• Book - “Scratch” by Manjula Martin - Website

Subscribe!

• Subscribe on Apple Podcasts
• Subscribe on Spotify
• For more episodes, check out The Intentional Career Podcast website

Schedule a Call

Ready to create your Intentional Career? Schedule a call with Karen Styles, Career + Life Coach and owner of Flow + Fire Coaching.

Follow

Follow Karen on Instagram, Facebook, or LinkedIn

Hope Mirlis started out in performing arts but now performs weddings. Her big career moves  coincided with big geographical moves, too. Originally from NYC, she moved to Atlanta to pursue performing arts, and then went to California to get a Master’s of Fine Arts. A friend asked Hope to officiate their wedding, and that changed everything. Hope and Karen discuss the path to an intentional career, and the many twists and turns that happen along the way.

I’m your host, Karen Styles, Career + Life Coach and owner of Flow + Fire Coaching. Ready to create your Intentional Career? Schedule a call with me.

My guest is Hope Mirlis. She is a registered New York City Wedding Officiant, an Ordained Interfaith Minister,  and a Certified Yoga Instructor. She founded her business “A More Perfect Union” and created a premarital counseling program. She has been guiding couples around the world from the “Yes!” to the “I Do.” since 2009.

Interview Highlights:

[01:13]  Being an officiant wasn’t Hope’s original plan. She was a performer from childhood, and started her career in the performing arts.

[03:48] Hope and her friends created a theatre company.

[07:02] Hope realizes her place isn’t in Atlanta anymore.

[10:55] A classmate asks Hope to officiate her wedding. Hope says No.

[14:23] How the one-time wedding turned into her calling as a wedding officiant. 

[18:05] Hope asks herself, “What happens if I release performing arts?”

[23:33] What people in Hope’s life thought about her career change. 

[30:12] How releasing and letting go along the way helped Hope’s career.

[43:45] What advice Hope would give to her past self.

[47:38] Hope’s career crush, Jenny Levison.

Resources:

• Hope’s Website - A More Perfect Union - Website | Instagram | Facebook
• “Souper Jenny” Levison - Website | Instagram
• The Souper Jenny Kindness Tour - Website

Subscribe!

• Subscribe on Apple Podcasts
• Subscribe on Spotify
• For more episodes, check out The Intentional Career Podcast website
   

Schedule a Call

Ready to create your Intentional Career? Schedule a call with Karen. 

Follow

Follow Karen on Instagram, Facebook, or LinkedIn.

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Transcription - From Performing Arts to Performing Weddings with Hope Mirlis

Karen: I’m Karen Styles and this is the Intentional Career Podcast. I talk to all kinds of people who take all kinds of paths to work they love.

I'm a career and life coach and owner of Flow + Fire coaching. If you’re ready to create your intentional career with the support of a coach, schedule a call with me. There’s a link in the show notes or go to intentionalcareer.co and click the blue “schedule a call” button.

Today my guest is Hope Mirlis. Hope is a registered New York City wedding officiant, an ordained interfaith minister and a certified yoga instructor. She founded her business A More Perfect Union and created a premarital counseling program. She's been guiding couples around the world from the "Yes" to the "I do" since 2009.

Welcome Hope, I'm so glad to have you here.

Hope: I'm super excited to be here and I'm super excited to know who that person is that you introduced!

Karen: She sounds pretty impressive, I must admit.

Hope: I know!

Karen: So you are a wedding officiant and apparently that was not always your plan, correct?

Hope: Oh, it was so never my plan!

Karen: It was so never your plan? So let's talk about how you ended up here. What was the plan or what were you doing when this  came up in your life?

Hope: So as a child, I was very outgoing. I was a little performer from the very, very beginning, so I always thought, and I think my family always thought that I would definitely go down that path. So I performed as a child. I danced as a child and then I started choreographing. I wound up going to college  eventually getting a performing  arts degree and that's really where I was headed. I founded a theater company out of college as well.

Karen: Oh, no big deal. Just founded a theater company.

Hope: Yeah, so I was definitely down that path and I was making inroads. The company was doing very, very well. I was very satisfied as an artist and as an administrator. so it really truly made sense to continue down that path.

Karen: And so what was the dream at that point? You were going to create a theater company or be an actress - did you have a big goal?

Hope: I mean, I think early on, I thought I was going to be a big, famous actor, but that never seemed to be where things went. I remember speaking to a casting director years ago or one of my managers or agents that I was working with and I was like, Hey, what's going on?

Like, what kind of work is happening? What are you submitting me for? And she's like, well, I'm looking at submitting you for Lebanese roles. And I was like, oh, that's great. [I’m] not Lebanese. Is there a lot of work that you see for Lebanese actors? If you think that I can be in that path? And she's like, no, not really. And I was just like, okay, I can see myself not working as much as I wanted to.

And was really the impetus for the theater company that I founded with a few colleagues of mine that we said, you know what? We're not getting the work that we want. So why don't we create it?

And at that time I was living in Atlanta and there wasn't really a theater company doing the work that we wanted to do. There was, some very, very small companies and there were large institutions. We said, you know what, there's gotta be a middle ground. So we basically said... it's like that Mickey Rooney movie that was like, we got a barn, like let's put on a show.

So we did that, and then the business side caught up.

Karen: Oh, what do you mean by that? Like you had this idea and people were interested in it?

Hope: I mean, I always had a business acumen, so that was kind of an easy thing for me, but I'd never run a theater company that was a not-for-profit arts organization. So, I mean, did we pay taxes? No. Did we know we were supposed to pay taxes? No. So eventually we realized, ah, great. By this time we did have a board of directors that were able to help us pay the taxes back to that. We owed the state and to the local municipality. But Yeah, it's like, Hey, let's do it. And then and then everything else will follow.

Karen: Right.

Hope: Thankfully, it kind of did.

Karen: For how long?

Hope: I was with the company for 10 years. The company is still going strong, which is pretty amazing. I mean, I'm not in that world anymore, so I'm not really in touch with what's happening, but yeah, it's kind of exciting to see the foundation that we started 24 years ago is still in play.

Karen: Wow. That's exciting.

So, something changed. You're not part of that world. You were in that world, creating, making the thing happen that didn't exist. And what changed? Something happened that you're now, in New York city living life as a wedding officiant.

Hope: So I kind of plateaued.  It got to a point, I wasn't getting the work that I wanted to. People saw me as more of an administrator for a theater company and not as a performer anymore. And I really wasn't sure what to do during that time. I did leave Atlanta to take a training program.

We got some grants as an organization for personal growth, for organizational growth, but it really wasn't enough. So I realize, and it took a lot of soul searching. It took a lot of, crying with friends and colleagues to say, you know what? I don't think my place is in Atlanta anymore. If I looked at the potential of leaving Atlanta, what would that look like? If I left the company that I helped start 10 years ago is that doable?

So, really, truly weighing where my career could go versus what I was having now and the dissatisfaction that I was having in my career at that time.

Karen: So signs were pointing to dissatisfaction. This isn't quite what I want anymore.

Hope: Correct. Yeah, absolutely. So I kind of looked to see what was out there. And it's really funny before I even knew, or maybe as I was knowing, I interviewed about, oh gosh, I want to say at least…  So I was an artistic director or a producing artistic director for a theater company and I did this with three other women. So we were all co-producing artistic directors, but I interviewed either 8 or 10 other artistic directors in Atlanta and recorded the interviews. Just to get a better idea about what they do, where they're satisfied, where they feel dissatisfied. And I basically said, I may be looking to make a change. I don't know what that looks like. Please don't tell everybody.

Karen: Oh, so this was like an informational interview. You're kind of networking with people and putting out feelers.

Hope: A little bit. To say, hey, what's out there, what's possible? I think that landed me  an interview with a theater company to potentially partner on a grant that would allow me to join their company and they would get funding for that collaboration of me joining with them, but that didn't work.

So it was really looking to say, okay, what's next? It turned out, at that time, at that 10 year mark, there were three of us running the company. And then two of us wound up leaving the company at the same time.

And then I still didn't know what my next steps would be, but I knew because of the way that my world interacted in Atlanta, that I couldn't stay if I really wanted to pursue the work that I wanted to pursue. And there was something that was a little...I guess it was hard for me to see the work of a theater company that I helped found. If I couldn't be a part of it, so I was finally able to leave, I was able to break that tether. And it felt okay.

So I started looking for MFA programs, Masters of Fine Arts programs that were mid-career because I wasn't right out of college. I had at least 20 years of experience in the business. So, there were a few that were out there. I had informational interviews, and then I was brought out to the University of California Davis for their program, which was a super small program that I then got into and then decided to attend.

Karen: Okay, so you go from Atlanta to California.

Hope: And then one of my classmates asked me to officiate her wedding.

Karen: Oh, just out of blue?

Hope: Out of the blue! She's like, hey, what are you doing on December 30th, 2009? And I was like, nothing, what are you doing? And I was thinking that she was going to say we're having an engagement party,

Karen: Right. And what point of the year did she ask you this?

Hope: She asked me this probably about two months prior.

Karen: Okay. Okay.

Hope: And I was like, wait, what? No, no.

Karen: No.

Hope: And she was like, what do you mean, no? And I was like, well, why? Why me? Like, why? I don't understand.

Karen: Yeah.

Hope: And she wore me down cause, I kept like throwing all these roadblocks in her way. I was like, legally, I don't have this. I don't know what to do. I don't know how to do this. And she's like, oh, we will figure it out. And I was like, oh, you totally will. So I was able to get a permit from the county to perform one ceremony on one day. And we gathered on a beach in Sausalito, California on December 30th 2009. And I performed my first ceremony.

Karen: And so you originally said no. And then you went for it. What made you change your mind?

Hope: I realized that I had to take my ego out of it, that it wasn't about...that I really needed to step in there and be there for my friend in whatever way she needed me.

Karen: And she couldn't find an officiant that she liked or wanted?  Or you were going to bring something to her wedding that she needed?

Hope: She wanted me to be there on behalf of her friends. So it was a very small gathering. It was just her family. Basically it was each of the bride and the groom's children. And a pair of adult witnesses and that was it. So they said on behalf of our friends, would you do this for us? And I'm like, no. And then I'm like, yeah, you know what? I have to do this for her and we'll figure it out.

Karen: Yeah.

Hope: And we did. I mean, she figured out the legal portion of it. I figured out what a ceremony needs to have legally and then what would be nice to add to it? Incorporating their kids in it, knowing that we're standing on a beach, and what does that mean to the couple? What does that mean to relationships and being able to incorporate that piece into a very, very simple wedding ceremony.

Karen: And that's so beautiful that you could symbolically represent all the friends that were joining them together.

Hope: Yeah, I think they wanted to make it as simple as possible. And they wound up having a gathering -  a party-  later, but they really just wanted to keep it very small and special. And I was very humbled as I continue to be humbled when couples invite me into that world, into that celebration of their union, of their relationship.

Karen: So, how did that go from being a one-off thing to now, this IS my thing.

Hope: It took about two years.

Karen: Okay.

Hope: So, I mean, after I performed that first ceremony, I was like, WHOAH, what is that? I was like, that is super freaking cool.

Karen: Yeah. Tell me more about that. What did that feel like? Or what was that experience like for you?

Hope: Well, it's like, it felt to me in a way, this culmination of a lot of things that I've already done.  I felt like I started stepping into a calling and I couldn't describe it. I mean, I don't think I would say those words at that time, but I was like, huh, that's cool. I'm good at that.

And even the couple were like, we knew you were going to be good at it. We didn't know you were going to be THAT good at it. So I was like, great. I'm now going to make myself available. And I was involved in the catering community as well. And that's a job that I've had since I was a teenager. So I started letting the catering community know, hey,  if you need an officiant,  if you're catering a wedding and you need, or you know of a couple that may need...  so I kind of just started sprinkling it out there.

Karen: Yeah.

Hope: But kind of  like more, as a joke or like, yeah, I can add this to what I'm already doing.

Karen: Kind of like throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks I'm like, maybe I'll try this thing?

Hope: Well, yeah. I had my MFA at that time, I was performing, I was teaching, I was working administratively for a number of dance companies. So I was working. Was I satisfied in that world? Not really, but again, like I picked myself up for now the third time and started fresh.

I left New York as a teenager and went to Atlanta. And then I left Atlanta. I went to Northern California for grad school, and then I left grad school and went further west to the Berkeley / Oakland / Bay Area and started my professional career all over again. So it was like,  I can make this all work.

And then I think when I was sitting on my bed in Oakland, California, I was like, what if I don't have to make it all work? Like what happens if I can start releasing some things that no longer resonate? That no longer work for me? And I think I kind of sat there and I remember that feeling.

But, Facebook became really popular, right when I got to grad school, which was hilarious because I mean, I was at that time 36 years old and I'm getting on Facebook with all the kids and I'm like, what the heck is this? I felt like all of a sudden cool, because at that time you could only get a Facebook invite if you were a university student. So I was like, I got one of those. I mean, very, very shortly after that,  I'm saying like a few weeks after that, they opened it up to the general population. So it wasn't all that exciting for that for the very, very beginning, but you know, that's how I started.

I think I wrote on Facebook, that revelation, like what happens if I release the performing arts piece? What does that look like in my life? And I felt like a weight coming off of my shoulders in a way that I would never have expected. And it felt like, you know what? I feel like I'm finally on the correct path.

Karen: Hmm. And so were you on the path of focusing on your business at that point? Or was it just mainly about letting go of performing?

Hope: It was a little bit of both just becauseI was still working in the field. I was still working for a theater, for a dance company. I still had things going on that I couldn't fully release. But I was like, okay,I have this business.  I think at the time that I started it I was personal cheffing and doing yoga.

And then I was like, okay, how can I add the officiant piece to that? And then I think a friend of mine was like, you let it go Hope. Let the catering piece go. You have this beautiful yoga practice and officiating practice, that makes much more sense. And at this point, because the first couple, unfortunately, we're having issues that I didn't find out about until the day of their wedding.

Karen: Oh!

Hope: Oh, yes. So I realized after I performed that first ceremony and I was going to check into what this officiant position could look like I said, if I go down this path, I need to be a better advocate for my couples. So I then created a premarital counseling program.

So that two years between that first ceremony and my second ceremony - which was also a pair of friends - that allowed me to really step into this role as an officiant and a premarital counselor. And moved back to New York, which is, I'm from here. This is my home.

Karen: Interesting. So then it became more about, I guess like the marriage and the relationship and not just the officiating the wedding part.

Hope: Yes. It made much more sense to me to be able to look at it holistically and then be able to give you know, couples that guidance. From the yes to the I do. Some couples do that with me fully, but some couples don't need it. So I really give them that option. I really truly thought that couples would do that full continuum with me. That I would guide them through premarital counseling, we would do a yoga practice, either leading up to or on the day of the wedding, and then I would officiate their ceremony sometime that day. But it's very separate, couples that come to me just for yoga just want me for yoga. There is more of an overlap between the counseling and the officiating, but I see a lot of couples who are like, no, we're having a friend officiate or we're having a priest officiate, or we're getting married out of the country. So we really just want only the premarital counseling section or I have couples that are like, we don't need premarital counseling, thanks, but would you officiate?

So for me, it's always yes, yes and yes. I don't require anything. I don't require couples do premarital counseling if I'm officiating for them. I want to make sure to make it available to them and make sure that they know the importance of the engagement period. And making sure to ask anything that they need to ask or share anything, or make sure that they know the expectations of their relationship before they get married. And I'm happy to guide that if they want that, but if they don't need it, more power to them, let them do that on their own.

But it's like, let's hope that they just do it.

Karen: Yeah. And so what role did moving back to New York play? Because it seems like you're making big shifts coincided with geographical moves as well.

Hope: I think that the idea of moving back to New York was really due to the fact that I'm an east coaster. I loved California, it's gorgeous. But it really didn't feel like home to me. And if I'm stepping into what I truly felt like was a calling that I really needed to be a place in a place where I could settle and be here for the long term.

By this point, my family had  written off that I would ever come back to New York, so they stopped asking. And so then I kind of threw them for a little loop by going, hey guys, guess what? I'm coming back. And they're like, wait, what? You're what? And I was like, Yeah, I think it's time. It's time to come home.

Karen: And what did the people in your life think about you becoming a wedding officiant? Or seeing this big change? Sounds like to some of your close friends it totally made sense, but did other people have things to say about it?

Hope: I think that my friends got it. I think that they understood what it was and if they didn't, they asked me. My parents are hugely supportive of me, but they didn't get it and they didn't get it for a very long period of time. Especially the premarital counseling piece just because I'm not a therapist, I'm not trained as a counselor.

I created a program that made the most sense for me. So they basically were like, well, why do you feel like you can do that? Do your couples know that you have no training? Or do you think that if a couple is struggling, that you should send them to a professional? And it took me a while to go hold on a second, no, no, I'm a professional. I created this program. It took me two years to do it, it's not like I rushed into it. I looked to see what was out there, nothing resonated with me. So I said, how can I be the best advocate and the best guide for my couple? Both from the officiating side and from the counseling side. And if I didn't understand something or if I didn't know something, I took the time to research it because I knew that I'd get called out.

And I also want to make sure that, because if I want to be a really strong advocate and a strong guide, I have to have a lot of information and I have to have value for a couple in order to strengthen their relationship, strengthen their marriage to be, or celebrate their union. My uncle was a rabbi and ran a seminary here in New York city. He was one of the  founders of the interfaith movement here in New York City. So even as a rabbi, he worked with leaders from all faiths and even his seminary trained rabbis and trained officiants in a way that was very open.

Like I remember speaking to him, even as a child and, and, either singing in Hebrew with him, but he was also speaking more about spirituality and connectedness in, in a way that I appreciated, but didn't truly understand. I didn't realize this and I completely forgot about it, but my parents, I think once they came around to the fact that yes, I was doing this and yes, I was good at it and should be doing it and shouldn't be questioned for doing it.

They said, do you remember that your uncle asked you to join seminary out of high school? And I was like, what? No, I don't remember that at all. They're like, yeah. He asked you to be a Cantor, which is a singer in the synagogue. And then he said, you should join my seminary. And I said, no, and I completely forgot about it.

But it said to me that I wasn't ready at that time, I needed to experience a whole bunch of other stuff before I really truly stepped into that place.

Karen: And you're now an ordained interfaith minister.

Hope: Yeah.

Karen: And is that part of being an officiant or is that actually separate?

Hope: So it's kind of part of it. It's the legal piece, but that was the piece that I struggled with the most, especially because when I started. I was like, I can't do this because I don't have the authority to perform a legal wedding ceremony. So in California, you're able to get a permit.

You're not able to do that in most other states, especially New York. So when I got here, I reached out to the officiant community and I'm like, How do you do it? What's going on? So they sent me along the ordination path. Actually, I think as soon as I did that first ceremony, I went online and got ordained by the universal life church, which is what most friend officiants or family officiants do because it's legal. And it's crazy that you can get ordained in five minutes online. But does that make you a good, officiant? No.

Karen: Right.

Hope: Thouth some friend officiants may disagree with me or may not understand what it really means to be an officiant. So, I mean, I'm glad that I had that ordination immediately. And then I started on that two year path. Once I got here to New York another friend who lived in Virginia asked me to officiate and I had to apply to the Commonwealth of Virginia and I was denied with my ordination. So I said, okay, what's next? So I reached out to another few friends and said, Okay, I need to do something that's a little bit more vibrant than these online churches. So, I wound up getting ordained, for a third time with a church that I had to actually apply for. I had to have an in-person ordination. And I have to also pay annual dues. So that is the legal piece. So I am an ordained minister, but I am Jewish by faith. So don't usually come out and say that I'm a reverend, even though that's what legally is my title.

Karen: So interesting how all those pieces go together. It sounds like you, you followed a lot of little, I don't know, steps or breadcrumbs along the way to get where you needed to go. Can you identify, what were some of the specific, whether it was advice or resources or people, what were the things that helped you in creating this intentional career?

Hope: I think it was the releasing, the letting go along the way. I mean, I think the biggest one was the leaving of Atlanta and it was sitting down and crying with two really close friends of mine. And I hadn't thought of the leaving at that point.

And it was, in a quiet voice, one of my really close friends said, what do you think about leaving the company? What do you think about leaving Atlanta? And it was like, oh, no! That's not possible! What are you talking about? But it put a seed in there to go, wait, is it? Like, what's holding me here? I complain about being landlocked in Atlanta, even though I loved Atlanta. And it was really such an amazing community, a supportive arts community, and it still is. But I felt like I reached the end of that.

And then I sat down with a second friend, I think, like in the middle of crying. And it was really late at night. I was in my pajamas and a friend of mine was just like, come over, just come over. And I don't think she was trying to be harsh, but she said, Hope you're good at these things that you're trying to hold on to. Like, you're a good actor. You're a really good theater administrator, but there are people that do it better than you. And I was like… (gasp).

Karen: Ouch.

Hope: it was a complete ouch moment, but it was also a real big eye-opener to say, you know what? I think you're right. That's what got me on the path of going to get my MFA to say, okay, fine. If I'm not the best at it, what do I need to do to get there?

And what do I need to do to , you know, save my ass and have a terminal degree that I can teach at the college level? Because I was already teaching and I enjoyeded teaching. Hey, if I can't perform, that's okay. I have a lot of skills. I have a lot of stuff that I've learned, and I have a lot of things that I can share and support and guide. So I can still do that. And that felt to me very...there was a possibility.

Karen: It's interesting how that insult kind of gave you permission also to explore something else.

Hope: Yeah. And it did make me say, well, yeah, that's okay. I may not be the best at that. So what can I be the best at? I mean, especially, I think we were even looking at the logistics of it.  That there were some actors that were willing to do anything and everything in order to work. And I wasn't.

There were things that I was like, I'm not working for no pay. Or I'm not working in the middle of the night, or I'm not trying to do that. So that particular fire in me, didn't make as much sense. So I said, okay, I get that. So I need to find what truly lights me up, or I need to find where I am the best.

Karen: I like that you mentioned too how your reaction was, no. First for leaving Atlanta, and then becoming an officiant, like your first reaction was no.  And I try to tell people that when they're trying to make changes with people around them,  I try to remind myself of that when I'm talking to clients, right?

To say, what about this? And to not take offense when someone says no, because that can be very often a first response. It's okay. It's okay if someone says no, because that's your lizard brain going, no, we can't change something! We're going to die!

I like that, yeah, you can say no. And then the answer might be yes in the end Which is funny, thinking about how this is related to marriage.

[both laugh]

Hope: You know, I started getting there in my head. To say, hey, when have I offered something to a couple, or a suggestion in counseling? And they come back with no. So, yeah, I actually just wrote that down by the way.

Karen: [laughs] Great.

Hope: But yeah, I'm a Taurus. I do not like change. It's like, no, no, no. I'm going to hang back here and make it work and I'm going to make it work and I'm going to make it work. And so I was like, I can't make it work. Or I have friends that say, maybe you can't make it work.

Karen: Right. And I think it can be tricky when you have a dream and you're going for it. And sometimes we get these messages too, about how you just have to hold on and you just have to keep going. And sometimes there's a lot of value in quitting. When the thing is not right for you anymore.

What about advice that you ignored to your benefit? Was there anything, people told you things you should do and you said, no, that's not for me.

Hope: I'm trying to think if there was something during grad school. The program that I was in at UC Davis was very, very small. And I think because we were mid-career artists, they didn't really keep a huge, tight hold on us. SoI had a little bit of latitude to be able to kind of do what I wanted.

During my interview, one of the faculty said you're going to have to do a thesis. To grow to  graduate. You know, if you had to do anything you wanted, what, what would that be? And then I think I said something and she was like, no, no, make it bigger. No, no, no, no. Make it bigger. Make it bigger. And then when we got to when classes started that fall, they gave us a very tight parameter of what our thesis was going to look. And I'm like, wait, no, no, no. You've been yelling at me to be bigger, think bigger, dream bigger. And now you're putting us in a box.

So I said, fine, I'll do your little box thing. And I'm also going to do my dream big thing. And let's just see what happens. And it was a pretty amazing thing. I mean, I'm okay. By having let go of my artistic paths, but there's also some things that I'm super proud of from that past as well.

And especially during that period of time, which was a very interesting transition from running a theater company to fully just being an artist. It was very funny. Cause one of my closest friends was in the program and he was a lighting designer. And he's like, what did you guys do in class today? And I was like, we crawled around the floor and we made funny noises and he was like, you what? And I was like, I know! And yeah, so it was, it was kind of exciting to be able to have released a lot of them. The outside elements to be able to play and explore because it was a muscle that I had released.I hadn't practiced that way for a while.

So, I mean, now I, as I'm writing wedding ceremonies or as couples reach out to me and they're like, Hey, we're not getting married in a church, so we don't have to follow those rules. We want to make sure our ceremony is very us. How do we do that?

It allows me to think in a very creative way.  I had a meeting with a couple the other day and I said you know, at the end of the ceremony I will be proclaiming you married, it's called the proclamation or the declaration of marriage. And the groom was like, doot-do-do doo! And I was like, yes. And he's like, we should do that. And then all of a sudden, we got in this whole conversation about like, do we get like horns? Do we get kazoos? And it got to be this beautiful conversation about how we can really honor this couple and how creative we could get, knowing that maybe kazoos isn't the right choice, but it allows us to open our brains in a completely different way.

Karen: That's so perfect. I was going to ask you, how does your performing or your theater past fit in and we can see it right there. Where you can bring that creativity,  it sounds like openness. Like, whatever ideas your couple are bringing, sounds like you have a way to incorporate it or make it happen. And because of that experience, you can execute that type of plan.

Hope: It’s also about storytelling. I mean, that's also what I did as a performer. I mean, there was a transitional step in there as well. In the fact that I went from teaching into life coaching.

Karen: Oh, did you?

Hope: I did Cause I said, you know what? I've trained. And we look at, what does a character want in a certain scene and the tactics do they use to get there? So I was like, huh, that's fascinating. What happens if we remove that layer and say, Hey, you as an individual, what do you want?

And then what can we do together? How can I help guide you? So you can get there. So that's kind of how I started. And then I was like, okay, that's not as interesting to me. Let's stay in this wedding world, and then how can I better guide couples into making sure that they're living in the relationship and living in the marriage that they really want?

Karen: It all comes together.

Hope: It does. I mean, it's so funny, man. I mentioned the catering piece earlier. That always wound up weaving its way, in terms of hospitality, making sure that my couples feel nurtured. All of the administrative stuff that I had done in the theater world. And even as an actor working as a temp, or working as an administrative assistant really allowed me to be able to run a business and communicate very well with other people in the wedding industry, as well as couples.

So basically every single person. And every single job that I've had, surprisingly enough, I've been able to grab the things that work and add it into my current practice.

Karen: I love that. Yeah. Because some folks might look at some things and think it was disjointed, but it actually sounds like there are important pieces that all come together for what you do now.

Hope: Absolutely. I mean, especially because usually the weddings that I do are in either catering halls where there's a catering element for it. I can speak their language. If there's a band or a DJ,I know that world just from the performance element of it and I can speak their language. So it has helped me a lot in the work that I do. Just saying, I know that world, I can use the vernacular.

Karen: Yeah. So valuable. I'm curious, knowing what you know now, what would  you say to your past self? The one who was crying in her pajamas at her friend's house in the middle of the night, like what words would you want to give to her?

Hope: I mean, the first thing that came to me is: it's okay to let go.

Karen: Hmm.

Hope: And I think that's kind of been a theme of our conversation today that it's not necessarily that you're bad at what you do, but there are people that do it better. And there are things that you can do that you haven't found yet that you can do better than anybody else. Stay the course. And that course of course was circular. I mean, it definitely was not a straight path.

Karen: Yeah, but it's okay to let go. That's beautiful. I think there's probably a lot of people that need to hear that.

Hope: Yeah. And the funny thing about that is, I have ankle injuries. I've had multiple sprains and breaks in my left ankle and left foot, including one, right at the end of grad school. And then I had one recently and I mentioned it to a colleague of mine and she's like, well, you know about the ankle, right? And I was like, what? So there are people that believe that there are, if there are certain injuries in the body, It symbolizes something. And the ankle is about you know, holding fast and not wanting to change a direction where you may need to go.

Karen: Interesting.

Hope: Yeah. And I did the math on it and my big injury on my ankle happened three months before I performed that first wedding ceremony.

Karen: Wow. And then your other one was just recently.

Hope: Then one was just recently and that got me a little nervous.

Karen: Yeah. What does that tell you?

Hope: What does that tell me? Like, what is that? And maybe it's not business, maybe it's personal, but it allowed me to go, okay, where do I need to let go? What am I not looking at? Where being stubborn as a Taurus? Like where am I being stubborn that I may need to find another direction.

Karen: Interesting.

Totally. I know that one's good that one's not fully formed yet.

Karen: Yeah. Well, and that's okay. I think that's why I like these conversations too. We're not assuming that you are necessarily at the pinnacle. You're on a career path, but things might change because that's how it works.

I want to ask you about your career crush. Who's your career crush either now or in the past?

Hope: Now, I'm not really sure. I mean, I have a lot of colleagues of mine that I admire how they work in the business. I mean, Oprah of course comes to mind right away. I don't know why.

Karen: You don’t know why?

Hope: Not that I really follow her. I mean, I think that, based on her love of meditation lately, her starting her career from scratch and not letting other people tell her no is pretty amazing. But you know, I don't know if there's that much resonance right now.

But the one that is coming to me a little bit stronger is one of my really close friends who runs a number of restaurants in Atlanta. And I worked with her. Starting about 20 years ago, we were actors in a play together. We both were in food service. I was running a catering company. She had a small restaurant and she's like, you have to come work with me. And that relationship has kept up for over 20 years. Now she's expanded from her one restaurant to five and is really all about community. Really about generosity and giving back.

There is something about the relationship of her staff and her community, all of the customers that come into the restaurant, which is very meaningful. And it's looking at those relationships to say, how can that translate? How can I have that same impact with my couples, with my fellow wedding vendors, with the community at large, taking some of the universal knowledge that I have, or knowledge from the wedding industry and making it universal to everyone's path?

Karen: Can you share her name or her restaurant?

Hope: Her name is Jennifer Levison.

Karen: Jennifer Levison.

Hope: She runs five restaurants in Atlanta called Souper Jenny and her latest adventure is she started the Souper Jenny kindness tour where during the pandemic she rented an RV and traveled from Atlanta to LA and back for six weeks offering intentional and random acts of kindness along the way.

Karen: Wow.

Hope: Yeah. And she's like, you need to come. And I say, no, which shouldn't be a surprise to anybody. And I was like, first of all, we're in the pandemic. We're in, in an election cycle, I'm not getting on an RV and traveling, sorry, not happening. But her and her very good friend, Meg Gillentine did it again in the spring. And I joined them for a week of their three week adventure.

Karen: Just recently.

Hope: Just recently, in may where they went from Atlanta to Maine and back. And I joined on the New York to Maine and back leg.

Karen: So you said no. And then you said, yes.

Hope: I know, it's a pattern.

Karen: A pattern, but it's always interesting, it seems like.

Hope: Oh totally to  say, okay. How can I do this in a safe way? You know, how can I be a conduit for kindness in a way that they are? How can I potentially shift my thinking in a way, how can I offer something to strangers even? Because for the most part, I really want to make sure that I'm a good resource and a good support system for the people I know.

But what are those little things that you can do for the folks that you don't, and then how would that ripple? That was a very powerful takeaway. And, and especially for someone that runs a business to say, you know what, I'm taking off six weeks, I'm taking off three weeks. Thankfully she has an amazing support circle, an amazing staff and her business can run. So I don't know if that's something that I'm going to want for the future right now. I kind of like my hand in everything, But I don't know. As I get older, will I expand more? Will I train someone to do what I do? I don't know.

Karen: Interesting. It'll be interesting to see, right? Oh, well that seems like a good place to wrap up. And people can find you, your website is...

Hope: My website is perfectunionny.com

Karen: And then, and you offer premarital counseling virtually?

Hope: So I work in person with couples here in the New York city area, but I work with couples globally, and I've been doing that before the pandemic.

Karen: It was cool, kids!

Hope: Before it was cool to do virtual work. I've been doing that at least for the last five years.

Karen: Okay. Great. Lovely. Well, thank you so much for joining me today for this conversation. It's great to hear about your path and the no’s and yeses and letting go of things. And we will link up your website and your socials in the show notes. And it's really  lovely to talk to you. So thank you for being here.

Hope: Oh, my gosh. It was so lovely. What an eye opener! Even on my end to go, huh, interesting!

Karen: I want to share a few of my observations about Hope's story in conclusion. So in the interview I noticed a couple of things. First of all, she said no to a few things before she said yes. And also, did you notice that she didn't have any shame around that? And I think that is so beautiful because some of us, perhaps people like me, I don't know if anyone else out there is feeling this, but we get terrified of making the wrong decision.

What if I make the wrong decision? And in Hope’s story, I didn't hear any kind of shame or beating herself up over saying no to things that she eventually accepted and took on and that were in fact, the right path for her. So that was really beautiful and really interesting.

And she knows: oh, that's how I am. I'm stubborn. So I say, no. A lesson that I'm taking away from that is maybe we don't have to worry so much. If you say, no, you could also say yes later. It was just a choice or a reaction and another choice can always be made.

So for anyone who has analysis paralysis or fear of making a wrong decision, maybe Hope's story can give you some hope! And to see that, okay, you can say no. And then you can say yes, or you can make one decision and then make another decision and it can turn out fine.

Another thing I noticed was the role of her friends and the outside people who helped her see and notice things that maybe she wasn't noticing. In particular, the friends who came to her in Atlanta and said, do you know, do you think you should leave?

And of course she said no, but there were people who could see something that she couldn't see. So just the value in having people in your community who care about you, who can show you things that you may not see. Now that’s not to say that she had no idea of her own and just went on and jumped into somebody else's plan for her. It's not like that. They really added a valuable perspective that she couldn't see on her own. So decisions - they can be changed. We don't have to put that much stress on them. And pay attention to the people who can offer you the insight into your own life. That's so important.

If you're looking for direction in your own career and would like some support reach out to me, let's connect to figure out how I can help you create your intentional career.

Thank you so much for listening. It means so much that you'd spend part of your day with me. If you enjoy this episode, please go to Apple podcasts and leave a five star review. It really does help other people find the podcast. My hope is that if more people find the Intentional Career Podcast, then more people can create their intentional careers.

Episodes are released every second Wednesday. So I'll see you in two weeks for more of the Intentional Career Podcast.

If your job was a car, what would it be? Would thinking of it as a car help you look at it in a different way? In this solo episode, Karen discusses using a metaphor to look at your jobs creatively. She uses the car metaphor to describe two past jobs, and gives questions to get you thinking about how to use this tool for yourself.

I’m your host, Karen Styles, Career + Life Coach and owner of Flow + Fire Coaching. Ready to create your Intentional Career? Schedule a call with me.

Highlights:

[00:50]  Using a metaphor to think about your career. If your job was a car, what would it be?

[02:35] Why my executive recruiter job was like a fancy sports car.

[06:57] How volunteering helped me “test drive” a new job.

[09:20] The role that was like a Toyota Corolla.

[11:02] Questions for you to consider, using this metaphor.

[14:54] How can the car metaphor help you see your career in a different way?

[16:17] Do you want to discuss the vehicle you’re in or the one you’d like to be in? Set up a call with me to find out how I can help you get to where you want to go.

Subscribe!

• Subscribe on Apple Podcasts
• Subscribe on Spotify
• For more episodes, check out The Intentional Career Podcast website

Schedule a Call

Ready to create your Intentional Career? Schedule a call with Karen.

Follow

Follow Karen on Instagram, Facebook, or LinkedIn

KDC joins Karen to discuss how kindness drives change in her career and in her life. KDC started out dreaming of becoming a teacher but discovered that the traditional classroom was not for her. However, she’s found other ways to be involved in education. She shares her story of getting sober, learning to treat herself with kindness and following the Universe’s breadcrumbs to her intentional career. 

I’m your host, Karen Styles, Career + Life Coach and owner of Flow + Fire Coaching. Ready to create your Intentional Career? Schedule a call with me.

My guest Kristina (aka KDC) has been a mindfulness mentor for over a decade teaching children and adults the power of our thoughts, feelings and actions. She is facilitating transformation for those looking for change in their lives and crews through mindful hacks, tips, techniques and habits. Kindness Drives Change and she is gonna show you how.

Interview Highlights:

[00:33]  Introducing KDC!

[01:15] How Karen & KDC bonded over carrot cake just before pandemic lockdown in 2020. KDC talks about the multiple roles she has, and the common threads in all the things she loves to do.

[05:00] KDC pursued a degree in education, but had a life crisis when she realized teaching wasn’t what she thought. So now what?

[08:15] How deciding to get sober affected KDC’s career by showing kindness to herself and how relying on mentors helped.

[13:30 ] KDC applies for a supervisor position that comes up. She eventually gets what she wants.

[20:15] How KDC decided she needed to make a change in her career in the bar and restaurant industry, getting sober, and starting by showing kindness to herself. 

[23:33] Karen & KDC discuss their shared love of Informational Interviews as a resource to learn about career paths.

[35:10] KDC’s career crush, Melanie Levenberg.

[42:28] The work KDC does in her business now at kdccoaching.com

Resources:

• KDC Coaching - Website | Instagram | Clubhouse
• KDC’s Podcast - Emotional Investigations - Website | Apple | Spotify
• Karen’s 2020 Interview on KDC’s Podcast - Website | Apple | Spotify
• The Four Tendencies by Gretchen Rubin
• Melanie Levenberg - Website | Instagram 
• YogaPl3y - Website | Instagram  

Subscribe!

• Subscribe on Apple Podcasts
• Subscribe on Spotify
• For more episodes, check out The Intentional Career Podcast website

Schedule a Call

Ready to create your Intentional Career? Schedule a call with Karen Styles, Career + Life Coach and owner of Flow + Fire Coaching.

Follow

Follow Karen on Instagram, Facebook, or LinkedIn.

D’ana Joi is a Multi-Passionate Creative entrepreneur who carved her own path to her intentional career through blogging and building communities for multi-passionates. We discuss how discovering her Human Design was instrumental in her career, and how multi-passionates can learn to fall in love with focus.

I’m your host, Karen Styles, Career + Life Coach and owner of Flow + Fire Coaching. Ready to create your Intentional Career? Schedule a call with me.

My guest is D'Ana Joi. She goes by her middle name “Joi,”  and is a multi-passionate, educator, community builder, and content creator. She believes having many passions is a gift, not a burden and she’s on a mission to rewrite the narrative around “choosing one thing” being the only path to success. Through her content, live workshops, and online community, Joi teaches creatives how to make friends with focus, overcome overwhelm, and step into their Multi-Passionate Mastery. 

Interview Highlights:

[01:48] Joi begins entrepreneurship journey with her blog, Joi Knows How, to explore and allow herself the freedom to explore.

[03:15] Joi writes a blog that changes her world, “It’s Time to Start Celebrating Multi-Passionate Creatives.” This leads to a new mission to create someone else’s lightbulb moment. She also begins coaching.

[05:05] Joi decides, nope, 1:1 coaching is not for her. She prefers teaching groups because it is a more aligned use of her energy.

[11:17] How important is the desire of simply wanting to do something in your work?

[16:30] Learning her Human Design type (Manifestor) was instrumental for Joi. She shares her definition of Human Design and how it works, and why it’s different from other personality tests.

[23:50] Joi discusses why her 90-minute à la carte session may be as powerful as a coach’s three-month one-on-one package.

[27:53] The advice that Joi ignored - about coaching and quitting her day job.

[29:30] Why Joi called her day job, her “support job” and how it actually helped her be dedicated to her business.

[33:33] A favourite topic of Joi’s: focus for multi-passionate people, and her three-part focus framework.

[41:30]  Different types of focus can empower, help with burnout and shiny object syndrome and imposter syndrome; how Joi’s Falling in Love with Focus workshop helped Karen see focus as a tool and use it in different ways.

[43:07] - The multi-passionate experience and burnout.

[43:43] Joi’s definition of a multi-passionate creative, how it’s different than a hobbyist.

[49:45] The strengths of multi-passionates in traditional careers.

[51:17] Why Joi’s future self is her career crush, along with a few other folks.

[58:38] Where to find Joi (Psst - her multi-passionate community opens this summer!)

[59:43] Karen loves Joi’s newsletter, Joi shares the secret to newsletter success.

Resources:

• Joi Knows How -  website | Instagram
• Joi’s Article - “It’s time to start celebrating multi-passionate creatives”
• Joi’s e-book - Finally Focused (coming soon!)
• Joi’s workshop - Falling in Love with Focus
• Sarah Morgan - Website | Instagram

Subscribe!

• Subscribe on Apple Podcasts
• Subscribe on Spotify
• For more episodes, check out The Intentional Career Podcast website

Schedule a Call

Ready to create your Intentional Career? Schedule a call with Karen Styles, Career + Life Coach and owner of Flow + Fire Coaching.

Follow Karen

Follow Karen on Instagram, Facebook, or LinkedIn.

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Transcription - Celebrating Multi-Passionate Creative Entrepreneurs with D'ana Joi

[00:00:00] Karen: I'm Karen Styles and this is the Intentional Career Podcast. I talk to all kinds of people who take all kinds of paths to work they love. I'm a career and life coach and owner of Flow and Fire coaching. If you're ready to create your intentional career with the support of a coach, schedule a call with me.

There's a link in the show notes, or you can go to intentionalcareer.co and click the blue "Schedule a Call button".

Karen: Today on the show, my guest is D’Ana Joi. She goes by her middle name, Joi, and is a multi-passionate educator, community builder and content creator. She believes having many passions is a gift, not a burden. And she's on a mission to rewrite the narrative around choosing one thing, being the only path to success through her content, live workshops and online community, Joi teaches creatives, how to make friends with focus, overcome overwhelm and step into their multi-passionate mastery.

A quick heads up that in this episode is our very first pet appearance. You can listen for that little Easter egg when Joi's dog, Chai, comes in with a growl in support of a very important statement that Joi makes. It happens after the 20-minute mark.  And now. On with the show.  

Karen:[1:24]Welcome, Joi. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Joi: Thank you so much, Karen, I'm very excited to be here.

Karen: [00:54] All right. I'm excited to talk to you about multi-passionates and career paths, and, well, your career path obviously. And I know for myself as a multi-passionate, a lot of us tend to have a lot of different jobs, so, I'm curious, what that was like for you?

D’Ana Joi: [01:17] Yes. As a multi-passionate, what I realized pretty early on was that there probably was not going to be a career that I could just fall into that felt super aligned and that I would need to carve out my own path and create my own way of doing things and allow that to be correct for me.

So, I started figuring myself out [01:48] in the form of a blog. I started writing blog posts and I started my blog and I named it, Joi Knows How because I wanted to keep it very [02:00] open-ended. Joi Knows How actually came out of my desire to say, I know how to do plant care, I know how to do recipes, I know how to do home decor. And so, the name Joi Knows How was this open-ended sentence that then I could complete in any way that I wanted through any content that I wanted to create and put on my blog.

Where most people say, you know, choose one thing and choose one niche [02:22], I chose to choose one platform to focus on. And then, I allowed myself a lot of creative freedom on that platform. Then, naturally, what happened was I talked about a lot of different subjects and as I started to write about more kinds of self-development, I noticed that those blog posts were getting the most traction.

And then when I specifically wrote a blog post called, "It's Time to Start Celebrating Multi-Passionate Creatives," that is when I realized this is what people want to hear from me. [03:00] This is what people are resonating with. I still get emails about that blog posts. People find it and feel for the first time that someone is actually acknowledging their experience.

[03:10] And so, that was kind of my green light to say, hmm, okay, how deep can I go into this subject? Because it's something that is so near and close to me because it's my life experience that I had so much to say. So from there, it's just kind of been a snowball of organic figuring things out. I went into coaching after I started my blog.

[03:37] After I wrote that blog post, I started going into coaching simply because I wanted to help people. And I wanted to, I like to say that, you know, writing that blog post and really creating a space for myself to show up in my fullness and in my, what I would now say my multi-passionate mastery. It was like a light bulb moment for me when I made that choice.

And there came a point [04:00] where that was no longer satisfying, and I wanted to help create someone else's light bulb moment. And that became my new mission. So, then I went into coaching because I just kind of thought, okay, well, I'm going to help people. I'll just do coaching that's the next logical step.

[04:16] I found it to be really challenging because I'm still, and I still feel this way, I'm working on myself so much and I'm just in such a deep state of getting to know myself and learning to experience and them teaching what I know, that for me to hold space for these long, you know, three-month one-on-one containers, it really doesn't suit my energetic output. I just find it really, really draining. So, I had to put coaching down because it didn't feel aligned for me.

Karen: [04:52] Interesting. I'm so curious about this because it makes sense, right? Like you have this lightbulb, like, oh, being multi-passionate is something I can accept about myself. And then other people hear that, and are like, oh my gosh, you know, I'm learning this from you. So, do you think it was, was it coaching itself? It sounded like the time, you didn't like the time commitment or it felt restrictive. What was it about the coaching?

Joi: [05:17] It's truly an energetic output conversation. I enjoy teaching to groups. I enjoy teaching classes. I enjoy knowing that something that I create once can then go and outlive that one moment and it can continue to serve people over and over and over and reach more and more and more people. [05:42] That for me, feels like a more aligned way to use my energy than giving someone all my attention in a one-hour conversation that no one else ever gets to see or hear.

I think that there's absolutely a time and a space and there may be a time in my life where one-on-one containers feel more aligned, but for where I am now, and just kind of what I'm moving through on a personal note, it just feels like it's not a way for me to use my energy.

[06:20] I do really, really well with educating in a group setting. And I do really well with holding space for community containers. And that's where I feel the most empowered and where I feel the most aligned. So, I’m definitely not scared, of actually wanting to do high-touch, ongoing one-on-one containers as their high-ticket offer, but I'm just not here to do business the way that everyone says that I should.

[00:06:50] I'm here to do business in a way where I feel really good about how I'm showing up and I'm able to serve and create from that really aligned energetic space. And so for me, teaching in groups, teaching masterclasses, having digital products, all of that is just a better use of my, my energetic output than being in a one-on-one container. It doesn't mean I'll never do it. It's just where I am now.

Joi: [00:07:15] What I learned about coaching one-on-one, is that really powerful coaches who are coaching one-on-one, they have the ability to hold space for that person who's in that, inside of that container with them. And I find that I don't have the bandwidth to hold space for people on a one-on-one sort of basis.

[00:07:44] What I enjoy more and what lights me up and what feels more energetically aligned for me is holding spaces for communities. That's why I call myself a community builder. I like to teach classes to groups. I like to create recorded content that I know can be looked at over and over and over by more than one person.

[00:08:05] If someone reaches out to me to work with me, one-on-one these days, I do offer à la carte one-on-one strategy sessions, where I will drop in and I'll connect with you, uninterrupted, for 90 minutes and give you everything I have. But what I'm not promising is that I'm going to offer a one-on-one three-month container. [00:08:28] Because for me, it's extremely energetically draining for me to be giving one person all of that attention for that long. I can do it on a session-by-session basis. But after that, it just becomes an energy drink for me, has a lot to do with my Human Design type and just how I show up in that and how I'm committed to living by my design.

[00:08:50] And I'm a Human Design Manifestor. So, and I'm an Emotional Authority Manifestor so my emotions fluctuate. There are days where I can barely show up for myself, let alone show up for someone else. And so, I'm just okay with that. And I've accepted that. There's more than one way to do business and that I don't have to have a high-touch ongoing one-on-one container.

[00:09:17] In order to have a successful business model, I spend my energy thinking about resources that I can create for the collective. I spend my energy thinking about a masterclass that I can host a digital product that I can create that can then go on to create passive revenue. Because my value in life is to have space in my life for rest and creativity.

[00:09:43] And if I'm showing up over and over again, the worst weeks for me are weeks where I have a ton of calls because I just I'm like, I cannot function like this. I need white space. I need quiet. I need time to create because I'm actually creating content that's going to help [00:10:00] shift part of the collective awareness around what it means to be multi-passionate. And that takes a lot of energy to pioneer an entirely new framework and help shift the way that people are thinking about multi-passionates, that takes a lot of energy to create. And so, the last thing I would want to do is show up on a call with someone who's paid to be in a one-on-one container and be exhausted and show up and give them a depleted version of myself.

Karen: Yeah.

Joi: [00:10:34] I want to make sure what I'm always doing is creating time to rest so that then I can show up and powerfully serve my entire community. And that's the path I've chosen.

Karen: [00:10:48] How much of it is about like, and I'm taking this and drastically simplifying it down, but I've had this inkling, sometimes, where like, I get a feeling of, I just don't want to do this. Or I do want to do this, you know? And like, how important is that feeling of, of just wanting or not wanting and, you know, is that, is that like the voice that, that you're following? Or would you call it something else?

Joi: [00:11:17] I would call it, I'm not available for that. You know? So, someone says, hey, I'm really looking for an ongoing one-on-one coaching container. There are people I can refer you to. I'm not available for that. I do à la carte, 90-minute sessions. If you want to drop in, I'll give you my undivided attention, but I do not do ongoing one-on-one containers.

[00:11:44] So, and it is very much like I don't want to do it. And you know what? Here's how, you know. You do it and you feel resentful after. Or you book that client and then you're angry. So, you have to show up for the call, right? Instead of like, oh my gosh, I'm so excited.  

When I host a workshop for, for my community, [00:12:05] for the collective, I cannot wait. I am excited. I'm like, let's go at workshop day is a big deal for me. Like it's an event. I'm excited. I can't wait to be there. And even if I show up to host a workshop and only one person is there live, I know I have plans for the replay. So I'm still excited if I have, you know, a one-on-one 90-minute session.

[00:12:30] I also get excited for that because I know I'm going to drop in, give that client what they need and then I'm going to, you know, exit. But when I used to have ongoing weekly calls with someone week after week, I would be like, oh my gosh, I do not want to show up for this call. I don't want to do this.

So yeah, it is that feeling and it's being okay with that. And especially when it's a feeling that goes against the grain, then we make ourselves wrong for not wanting it, [00:13:00] but our desires are so intelligent. And if we can make space to listen to them and be more unapologetic about that, then we start to create business models that are authentic and genuine instead of everyone just, you know, being on a hamster wheel and doing things the way that they feel that they need to.

[00:13:19] And to be totally honest, there are so many people who are the polar opposite, who are like, I love work. I have 12 one-on-one clients that brings me so much happiness. And I honor that, and I respect that, and that's just simply not my path. I'm here to build community. I'm here to create digital products. [00:13:40] I'm here to use my voice to really create a paradigm shift in the multi-passionate experience. And that's where I am.

Later in life, you never know. So, I like to say I changed my mind a lot. This is another thing I would love to talk about because this is becoming a part of my business model. It's just getting everyone on board that this [00:14:00] might change and I cannot commit to this long term.

[00:14:02]  But you know, I changed my mind a lot. So, there could be a point in the future where I say, wow, I have really reached a new threshold where maybe I have the digital product funnel and it's working really well. Right? Maybe my community is sort of sustaining itself and I have other educators who are coming in and teaching. And then maybe I have more bandwidth, more space in my life to drop in and be with someone in a one-on-one intimate container for a longer period of time.

Karen: [00:14:30] With the desire to do so, right?

Joi: [00:14:33] Right. From a desire-driven place. Exactly, exactly. And if that happens, that's great. And if it doesn't, that's also perfect.

Karen: [00:14:42] Did you have a point where, I'd like to ask this question to people because it happened to me and it happens to a lot of people where you kind of look around at your work or your life and all of it, cause it goes together and kind of go, okay, this [00:15:00] has got to change. I can't do this like this anymore. [00:15:03]  Did you have a moment or an experience like that? And if so, what was going on?

Joi: [00:15:14] I have this experience often. [laughs]

Karen: [00:15:20] [laughs] Actually, that's kind of a relief to hear.

Joi: [00:15:24] Like, yeah, so I've had this experience many times in many ways and big ways. That means, okay, time to totally pivot my entire business model, and in smaller ways, meaning actually I'm not going to launch this this month any more time, you know? Right? So, there's like so many layers to that.

I will say though, for the most pivotal version of looking around and realizing, oh no, no, this isn't going to work, was me learning my human [00:16:00] learning that I'm a Human Design Manifestor, and I do not have any activations in my Sacred Role. So that means that the part of my body graph, you know, for anyone listening, who's just like, I don't know Human Design.  

Karen: [00:16:15] Yeah. Can you give us, can you define, I think I'm just barely tipping my toes into it, so I don't think you, can super sum it up? But can you kind of explain what Human Design is for people who don't know and then yeah, go into what that means for you?

Joi: [00:16:30] Yes. And I'm so excited that you're in my community because we're going to get to learn so much about this and it's going to be amazing.  Oh, it's so cute. Design in my personal definition is the blueprint with which you come into the world that helps you navigate what your energetic exchange with the work you put out in the world and how you interact with other people, [00:16:57] What that's going to look like.

[00:17:00] And it's information about yourself. It's information about things like staying consistent, like, you know, what your energy cycles are around work. What's your energetic output? How much rest do you require? How much quiet time? Should you be going out and networking? Or are you, you know, are you here to more so just respond to people's needs?

[00:17:24] Or are you here to initiate? There is a lot of different layers to it, but Human Design basically is not a personality test because it's not based on quiz answers. So, this isn't the Enneagram and it isn't, you know, these different personality tests, because those can change depending on your state of mind, when you're answering the questions.  

Human Design comes from ancient wisdom. [00:17:49] It comes from Chinese medicine and also comes from some of the Tree of Life. So, it comes from these ancient methodologies. And [00:18:00] uses your birth time, date and location to then pull up information about your body graph, that energy, your energetic body. I hope I'm not butchering this. I'm not a Human Design practitioner, but I am a Human Design enthusiast.

[00:18:16] So hopefully I'm not butchering this, but that's basically the gist of it. It's sort of like a way to get to know yourself and it's sort of like, you know, if you're into, oh, I'm a Sagittarius, so I'm a Pisces and that kind of thing. It's like that, but on steroids a little bit. So, you're just getting a ton of information about yourself.

[00:18:36] What tends to happen with Human Design is it's going to confirm a lot of things that you already knew, but maybe you felt confused or ashamed about because it's maybe not just like the status quo or things like that.

So, in my experience, learning my Human Design was like, oh, okay, so this is why I am this way. And I no longer need to apologize for that because I [00:19:00] actually came into this body to live my life with this set of not rules, but like I have this roadmap for how I intended to live my life, which is like for the Manifestor I'm here to initiate powerful movements. And after I initiate something, I need long, deep periods of rest to then gather up energy so that I can receive my next urge and initiate the next thing.

Someone who is a Generator or a Manifesting Generator, they're here to respond to initiations and needs. So, they're here to say, hey, you know, hey, I have these ideas. [00:19:49] What do you guys think is best? And then their audience responds and then they go and they respond. And then it's like this back and forth and Generator and Manifesting Generator [00:20:00] on periods of rest in between. They can keep going and keep going and creating and building and working and then when they feel tired, they can rest.

[00:20:09] But as long as they're doing things that light them up, they have a lot of energy to work and create. So that's why for me, I hired a Generator as my Virtual Assistant because she will be able to respond to my initiations and she has the energy to go and work and complete that for me. And it's perfect for her. It's aligned for her. It's her design.

So it's a rabbit hole, but learning that I'm really here to initiate and that I need periods of rest, that specific element really brought me out of feeling like I'm lazy and I have no work ethic because that's what I was believing before. How come I build this thing [00:20:56] and then I don't have any interests [00:21:00] next week? What's wrong with me? I'm lazy. I don't have any work ethic. I don't know how to work hard, but I'm actually not here to work hard. I'm here to create and initiate, pull movements and gather around me people who are responsive. Carry that mission out.

Joi: [00:21:23] So in learning all of this, about my Human Design, the biggest shift that it brought into my world was realizing that I'm not lazy and I don't have a shitty work ethic, which is what I was carrying with me before. It was this feeling of what is wrong with me?

[00:21:44] I get an idea. I'm so excited in the beginning. And then I launch it and I put it out into the world and I put all this energy into build building it, and then it's done, or it's almost done, and now I have zero interest and I'm exhausted. What's wrong? Me? I thought, oh, this is self-sabotage, I'm lazy. I have a poor work ethic, but after learning why Human Design, that as a Manifestor, I'm not actually here to work hard.

Karen: [00:22:13] Hmm.

Joi: [00:22:14] I'm here to initiate. I'm here to create impactful movements. And I'm here to inform about what I am creating so that the other Human Design types, especially Generators and Manifesting Generators can respond and say, oh my goodness, I love that idea. What do you think about this? Or I know someone who would love that, let me reach out to them.

[00:22:39] And we're here to work in this beautiful co-creative ecosystem of different Human Design types. I have a really good friend who's a Generator and we have conversations all the time and she was like, oh my gosh, I love talking to you because you really helped me get started. You give me so many ideas you initiate for me, and then [00:23:00] I can just go and respond.

[00:23:01] And now I know what to do. This is why when I do lead a 90-minute one-on-one à la carte session, that's really all you need from me. I'm here to help initiate. I'm here to get you started. I'm here to help people get started. I'm here to initiate. What I'm not here to do is then be an ongoing source of support because I eventually am going to run out of energy and I needed time in my calendar and white space to relax, to recuperate, to rejuvenate so that then I can come back and make that next initiation and that next impactful movement.

[00:23:50] So a 90-minute one-on-one session with me could potentially be the equivalent of someone else's three-month program because my energy, my initiation energy is really powerful.

But if I was trying to take that energy and turn it into, okay, we're going to meet once a week, it's going to be this consistent thing. [00:24:10] That's actually not how my energy is the most powerful. So, there's a lot of beauty and learning in our Human Design. And this is why I have begun to weave this into my work with multi-passionates because it really helps us too. I have this deep self-acceptance, but I can also teach us how to work with other people.

[00:24:31] So for example, my Virtual Assistant, that I've hired, she's a Generator. And so she'll be able to respond to what I want to create, and she'll be able to help me be consistent. Like she's going to plan all my social media content for me. Right? And she's going to schedule it out and post it. I will be able to say, here are the themes I want to post about. [00:24:51] Here are the offerings I have here at my initiations. And here's the content I created because I love creating content but scheduling it and posting it [00:25:00] consistently, not so much. So just really like, I mean, we can go on forever about Human Design, but it is a way to know more about yourself.

[00:25:12] So when you asked, you know, was there a time that I looked around and said, oh, none of this is going to work, like I just gotta pivot, learning my Human Design was the number one thing. And I'm going to be honest with you, Karen, I'm still in this because there is so much pressure to have a high ticket offer that requires you to show up.

Karen: [00:25:35] Yeah.

Joi: [00:25:35] So every day in my intensive focus sessions, which we can talk about perhaps later, but Intensive Focus is part of the three-part focus framework that I've developed and, and sense of focus allows you time to look at a high level at your commitments, your vision for your life at your desired outcomes.

[00:25:59] And then ask [00:26:00] yourself if your current commitments and, you know, the things you put in time and energy to, do they align? Is there anything that needs to shift? Right? Every time I come out of an insensitive focus session, I'm like, I need to focus on digital products. I need to create passive revenue. I need to be okay with that. I do not have to create a one-on-one long-term offer in order to be a successful entrepreneur. And I need to accept that. That's okay. Okay. So, it's like an ongoing acceptance in an ongoing remembering that it's okay to do things in a way that's going to honor my energetic output.

Karen: [00:26:44] Right. And like the right path for you? Not, I don't know, a system that a business coach created and said, here's the path to seven figures or whatever.

Joi: [00:26:57] Right.

Karen: [00:27:00] Yeah. So, it sounds like Human Design was huge in helping you kind of intentionally go where you need to go in, in the way that's right for you. I'm curious if you had any advice out there that you like ignored to your benefit.

Joi: [00:27:17] Yeah. I mean, everyone's like, well, you're sitting on so much money. You should just be a one that you should just do coaching, should do one-on-one coaching. Like it just makes so much sense. You're multi-passionate and they'll come to you and they want coaching. And people ask me all the time if I do one-on-one coaching and I literally have to turn people away because I don't,

Karen: [00:27:36] Interesting.

Joi: [00:27:39] I don't. And so what I ended up saying, in the way, I have ignored that advice. I'll say to someone I don't do long-term one-on-one coaching, but whoever you work with, you know, as a coach, if they are not familiar with the multi-passionate experience, and I encourage you to book a session with me [00:28:00] once a quarter, so that I can provide that contrast and I can provide that context and we can go deep into that part of it.

[00:28:07] So, you know, it's just kind of an unconventional thing to say. Most people would say, well, people are asking you for one-on-one coaching, you should just do that. But I'm not here to respond, I'm here to initiate and do what I know is right for me to do. So that's been advice that I've definitely had to ignore and not to like, you know, continue with the same topic if you were hoping for a different answer, but that's definitely, then some advice that I had to ignore.

[00:28:34] Also, some advice that I ignored earlier on is, you know, you got to just quit your job and go all in. I think I didn't quit my job till I was good and ready to quit my job. And the reason being was I wanted to enter into a state of appreciation for my job before I left. I [00:29:00] wanted to transition out of that experience, feeling empowered and like, you know, there was a world of possibility, not I'm just going to quit because I just have to, you know. I got to go cold Turkey and I just got to do this, isn't the experience my nervous system wanted. And it wasn't the experience that I wanted. So, I chose to start to focus on all the skills I was gaining from my nine to five. I stopped calling it my full-time job and I started calling it my support job.

[00:29:32] I created a workday manifesto that I hung up next to my desk and read every morning. I took real deep responsibility over my ownership of that situation. And I alchemized it into something so beautiful and so powerful that by the time I left, they threw a party for me. Everyone wanted to know more about my business. Everyone was excited for me and it was this beautiful transition.

Karen: Amazing. [00:30:00] I'm so with you on that. And I feel like it's a big, it's a mythology around like, you know, be brave, be bold, take the leap. Right? And to say that like, that's the way to be successful is to take the leap. And I think maybe some people can do this, but not, not all of us can. Or it's not right for all of us to, you know, and I had a similar experience where, you know, I knew that the job I was in was something I was not going to be in long-term and I wasn't quite ready to leave it either.

[00:30:34] And, I think also for me, it was about making little changes and little shifts and knowing that those actually add up to a lot in the end, and it doesn't have to be a giant leap off the cliff. So, I want to spread that message too, that it is not the only way to do it.

Joi: [00:30:54] Absolutely. It's not the only way. And I mean, I did quit [00:31:00] before I felt completely ready because being ready is another myth.

Karen: [00:31:04] oh, for sure. A hundred percent. Yep.

Joi: [00:31:06]  But you know, I just, I considered all the options, right? Like, okay, what's, you know, how much am I going to need each month to bring in? Do I have a solid business model that I can really get behind?

[00:31:21] And those are questions that were more important to me than, like, I knew. And I think another thing too, is people confuse like your level of dedication for like, oh, do you have a nine to five? I've been completely dedicated to my business energetically for a very long time, but I hadn't quite settled on a business model.

[00:31:41] And I just wasn't sure about a lot of the things and I wanted to have support financially while I figured all that out. And so, me keeping my support job was my way of being dedicated to my business. It was my way of making sure that I gave myself time and space to figure out exactly who I am as a business owner, without financial stress.

[00:32:07] I didn't have to think about, well, I got to bring money. So, I just, okay, screw it. I'm going to go do one-on-one for example. Right? I never had to make that sacrifice. And so, it's actually one of the most powerful choices I've made as a business owner was to support myself through a different channel.

Karen: [00:32:23] Yeah. I had a friend who, when I was going through the angst of like knowing my job was coming to an end, but feeling like I still had to stay a little bit longer. She was like, some people call it an investor. This is my investor, you know, and it's a nice way to look at it. And I agree. I think sometimes it's nice to not have to put pressure on your business too much, too early. [00:32:43] And then you can nourish it or let it grow and become what it wants to be without, you know, forcing this thing to have to make you a full salary yet.

[00:32:53] So you were talking about focus and, and I want to hear a little bit more about that because sometimes something that goes along with being multi-passionate and being interested in a lot of things, it can feel like it's hard to focus. And now you're educating about focus. So tell us more about what that means, for multi-passionates and, and you know, how we can make that work for us?

Joi: [00:33:23] So this is one of my favorite topics. This is something that I truly feel I was put on this planet to teach and to develop. And basically, what it is, is beginning to realize that focus is not this binary, very big, vague concept that we have kind of been conditioned to believe that it is.

So when you're in school, sit down and focus, [00:33:55] I mean, something very specific. It's like either you are quiet and you're [00:34:00] watching the teacher and you're taking your notes, or your head is down and you're doing your work or you're taking a test. Focus. Right? We've heard it so much in the education space. Okay. Everybody focus. Here's what we're doing.

[00:34:11] Right? It's like, okay, all hands on deck, eliminate all distractions and just think about whatever's right in front of you. And so for someone who struggles with just that version of focus, all of a sudden, now they're a person who doesn't know how to focus and they've gone all the way to that extreme. Multi-passionates because we by nature are inclusive thinkers, we would love to listen to the teacher, but we're also going to doodle. And we're also going to be thinking about a few other things and we're going to be making connections and we're going to be taking notes. And we're going to be remembering this idea that we have here and over there. [00:34:47] And for some people that is the most natural way to focus.

And so, what I have developed is what I call my three-part focus framework. And what that [00:35:00] does is it takes focus out of the abstract and it breaks it down into a more nuanced holistic framework where focus then becomes an energy that you can actually work with.

[00:35:14] So for example, Intensive Focus, which can also be called things like Intuitive Focus or Big Picture Focus, right? As we've explored together in other containers. So we can use whatever name we want, but the idea for that type of focus is you're zooming out. And you're thinking about your values. You're thinking about your ideal life. [00:35:42] You're thinking about what really lights you up. You're thinking about what your vision is. Maybe it's just for your vision for the next month or the next three months, or it could be the next year. It just depends on how far you want to zoom out, but you're looking at who you [00:36:00] are, what you want.

And then you're asking yourself really important questions about the current commitments that you have, and do they align? And the current priorities that you have, and do they align? Now, the reason this is so important for multi-passionate is because our priorities tend to shift.

[00:36:18] It's like a tectonic plate under the earth moving ever so slightly. So all of a sudden, even though your priority, what is like for my example, digital products, all of a sudden I'm gearing up to launch a small group program. Wait a second. What happened to the digital products? Right? So if. We start to get excited about a new idea that isn't aligned with that big picture vision.

[00:36:51] When we have that Intensive Focus session, that gives us the time and the space that we need as multi-passionate to course correct [00:37:00] to say, oh, wait a minute. That's right. I'm in a 90-day season of focus where I'm just focusing on digital products. I actually don't need to start planning my group program yet.

[00:37:11] I just, I'm not there yet. It will come. And it's this feeling of like, oh, okay, perfect. I'll just continue building up my digital product funnel because that's what I plan to do. I simply needed to remind myself. And not only that, but why am I doing this? Why am I building out a digital product funnel?

[00:37:33] Well, my core values are rest and creativity. Having digital products that can run without my presence are going to support my deep life values. That's why I'm doing this. Passive income is not passive at first. It's fricking hard work. So remembering why is so important. Why, why, why? And sense of focus does that now, intensively, this is wonderful and great and dreamy and fun and [00:38:00] expansive, but guess what else we need to execute. We're going to have to create to do this. Okay. We're going to have to do that stuff or we're going to, to get support to do it or whatever. Otherwise, there's no momentum and we're just sort of floating in the clouds and just dreaming about our business, but we're not actually executing.

And so that's where Active Focus comes in. [00:38:21] It's a much different energy. It's much, much, much different, more, we're more familiar with it, but it's a different type of focus. It's, okay, I'm going to get this work done. I'm going to work in short spurts. I'm going to maybe put on some music or maybe I need complete silence. Right? We learn things about ourselves because we know that there's different types of focus for different types of hours.

[38:41] And then we have Passive Focus, which is exactly what it sounds like. Which is like, all right, well, I've been doing a lot of work. I mean, I've been doing a lot of big picture thinking. I've been executing. I'm just going to go watch this webinar and I'm going to let that be what I do today. And I'm okay with that.

[00:39:01] Or I'm going to go listen to a podcast or I'm going to go for a walk, and I'm just going to brainstorm and think about something, but I'm not going to actually do any work right now. I'm going to allow myself to take a bit of a break. This is serving our creativity. This is keeping us from burning out.

[00:39:20] And it's a type of focus. It's a type of focus that is simply more passive. So, this three-part focus framework that I've developed has really been transforming the way that multi-passionates relate to focus. And it's helping multi-passionate people see that this whole idea of, oh, you know, multi-passionate, that's just an excuse [00:39:44] ‘cause you don't want to focus. [39:45] That's a blanket statement that we absolutely just don't need to buy into anymore because now we understand. No, I know how to focus and not only do I know how to focus, I know what type of focus I need. As it relates to whatever outcome I'm trying to create. If I'm unclear on my priorities, I know that I needed an Intensive Focus session.

[00:40:05] If I'm not moving the needle and nothing's getting done, I'm lacking Active Focus. If I'm burnt out, because all I'm doing is working, there is some opportunities to integrate Passive Focus into my schedule. And teaching this has been so rewarding. I'm actually just getting started on really putting this out there.

[00:40:25] So I have an ebook that's going to be coming out. And then I have a workshop, the replay of a live workshop, that I'll be providing as well for people who want to go deeper and learn about more like project planning and creating a 90-day season of focus and getting more deep into that. But this is something that, like I said is a paradigm shift because when we understand that there's more than one type of focus and that we get to actually be in control of that relationship, we feel so much more empowered as multi-passionate creatives. And it helps with a [00:41:00] lot of other things that aren't directly related to focus like burnout, like shiny object syndrome, and even imposter syndrome. It supports with that because you understand that it's not that you're never going to get this done. It's that you're doing it in a way that works for you.

Karen: [00:41:18] Yeah, and that workshop was so like, enlightening, empowering and kind of a relief for me. It's the Falling in Love with Focus workshop, right? Is that what it's called?

Joi: [00:41:30] Yes.

Karen: [00:41:31] And because I think, yeah, I only knew of one kind of focus, which is what you call Active Focus. And it was like either you have it or you're not. And you know, you don't know when you're going to have it or when you're not, is how I felt. And I always felt like I should always be doing more of it than I was. And so it was helpful to see that the Intensive Focus, that big picture thinking, was just as important. And as I've started [00:42:00] to put that into practice, it's been so helpful and it's energizing in a different way, [00:42:05]you know, so it's like not all work is, I dunno, sitting down at my computer and typing or having active or whatever, right? There are other ways to use that. And also, to see it as a tool, focus as a tool and you can pick it up sometimes or use it in a different way also.

Joi: [00:42:23] And then you can intentionally put it down too. Right? Because we can't talk about the multi-passionate experience and not talk about burnout.

Karen: Yeah.

Joi:  We're burnt out from trying to be people that we’re not and fitting into everyone else's mould. We're burnt out from our own ideas.

Karen: [00:42:41] yeah.

Joi: [00:42:42] You know, we're burnt out from feeling like we're always behind. We need to catch up because the specialists are just going full steam ahead.

Karen: [00:42:51] Yeah.

Karen: [00:42:52] And maybe I should have asked you this at the beginning, but like for people who are hearing the word multi-passionate for the first time, how do you define that? Or, I know when I heard it for the first time, I was like, oh my gosh, it was so helpful. So, can you give a definition?

Joi: [00:43:08] Yes, of course. Yes. Thank you for, thanks for bringing me back down to earth because sometimes I just think, oh, everyone knows what this is, so, okay. So, anyone who's listening, who's like, this sounds intriguing, but I understand only half of what Joi is saying. Let's take a few steps back.

[00:43:25] So here's what my personal definition of multi-passionate creative. Right? That's how I like to phrase it.

Here's my definition [00:43:34] of who those people are, who we are. If you are a person who has many interests in many different subjects, and you also have the raw talent to match, you are very likely a multi-passionate.

[00:43:53] But if you are someone who has many interests in many subjects and you have raw talent, meaning [00:44:00] you don't just have an interest in like weaving, you can actually learn it really fast and you're good at it. Okay. So like, that's what I mean by that. Now you have that going for you, but you also have this deep desire to share your creations with the world.

[00:44:17] So the hobbyist is someone who can really separate their passions and their interests from their business. The multi-passionate creative has a very hard time seeing where that line is. And doesn't really necessarily believe that there has to be this clear divide. They feel in their spirit that there should be room for them to show up and express more than one of their passions and more than one of their interests.

[00:44:49] And that's why for multi-passionate creatives, when we hear people say, you need to just have one thing, choose one thing, you need a flagship offer. You know, you don't want to confuse your audience and don't use the name multi-passionate as an excuse. If you want to make money, focus on one thing. I've heard that so many times I've heard success be quantified as choose one thing. Basically, sit up, sit down, be quiet, pick one thing and shut up about it. So that's going to feel real charged for the multi-passionate.

Karen: [00:45:23] Yeah.

Joi: [00:45:24] It's going to feel triggering. It's going to create shame. It's going to feel like you're just not allowed to play this game of online business or business building in general.

[00:45:37] It's going to feel like you have to make all these really finite choices and you can never change your mind. It's going to make everything feel real serious and real heavy we're not here to build businesses that way. We're here to say I'm a multi-passionate creative. And that does not mean that all of my [00:46:00] ideas are going to become a part of my business model. And it does not mean that I need to start three or four businesses at one time in order to validate or prove something being multi-passionate is a noun and not a verb. It's not about what I do. It's about who I am.

[00:46:17] So I can host a workshop and decide that I'm going to play my ukulele and sing a song as people arrive. And that can be an empowered choice that I make as a multi-passionate. I don't have to monetize giving ukulele lessons unless I want to, but these choices come from an empowered place of me being grounded in my multi-passionate mastery versus me feeling like I better hide my gifts. I better hide my talents. [00:46:51] I better never talk about the fact that I play the ukulele because people are just going to be real confused and I'm not allowed to share that part of myself.

So [00:47:00] the multi-passionate creative is really on this powerful journey to self-acceptance whether they know it or not. Because a lot of times they've been told you're doing too much. [00:47:10] You changed your mind too much. You're flaky. You're wishy-washy you don't know how to focus. And honestly, if you want to be successful, you need to sit down and shut up and pick one thing. And I'm just here to say, I mean, or we could just accept ourselves.

Karen: [00:47:23] Yeah. [both laugh]

Joi: [00:47:26] And you know, it's, I think I know that I'm a disruptor and my advice can be really polarizing and that's totally fine because the people who are like, oh my goodness, I've been waiting for someone to say that, those are the people who come into my world and who come into my community.

People who are like, this is cute, but like I'm telling you successes, you know, riches are in the niches [00:48:00] and all that. [00:48:00] They gravitate away and that's okay too because this is not a right or wrong, or an either-or conversation in any way. I like to think of it like this for, we are totally fine with people being introverts or people being extroverts, right? Like there's content all over like, oh, introverts, you can still be a coach and here's how you do it and this and that.

[00:48:24] But we don't make people wrong. We're not like introverts, that's wrong, but look like you better become extroverted or you can't be, we're not, we don't do that. We don't. I mean, hopefully, I don't really see anyone out there doing that. And so that's kind of how I feel. We get to begin to talk about the multi-passionate experience. [00:48:42] I think we began to look at it as some people are introverts and some people are extroverts. Some people are specialists, and some people are multi-passionate.

Karen: [00:48:51] Yeah. And I want to say as a quick aside, because you're talking about multi-passionate as entrepreneurs, but like also some multi-passionates change careers go in vastly different ways. Change, dive in, learn something new, a mark of a multi-passionate too, is that we get bored, like dive in, learn something so fast, learn all the things and then we can get bored and move on.

[00:49:14] And so like, if that's happening to you also, that's okay. That's okay. Maybe that's who you are. That's not a mark of being wrong. And it's great that you can learn all of these things and go into a new career. Like you can do it in a traditional sense.

Joi: [00:49:28] I mean, when I was working in corporate, I would kind of just would create my own job roles at, at a certain point because I would get pulled in all these directions because I had all these different talents. And so, I'd be like, okay, can we negotiate around this? Because not only can I create your content calendar, I can also write the copy, design the graphics. Like I can also do all of this, so is there an opportunity for me to step into a different role?

So, I would say, you know, for anyone who's in corporate or you know, who is in [00:50:00] a traditional job setting, if you feel like you have a lot to offer and you're getting pulled in those different directions by, you know, leadership or whatever, don't be afraid to say that you see an opportunity to create a unique role for yourself. Own that. It makes you more valuable, not less valuable.

Karen: [00:50:20] Yeah. And hopefully, those who are hiring too can say, oh, you're not just one thing. And that's awesome. Like that's a huge, that can be a huge benefit for an organization as well. So I wanted to ask like, who is your career crush? Do you have a current one? Or past, you know, folks that are just inspiring you to go through career crushes or entrepreneur crushes?

Joi: [00:50:45] That's such a great question. I'm going to be completely honest here. My future self is my career [00:51:00] crush.

Karen: [00:51:00] Oh, say more about that.

Joi: [00:51:04] Well, I just know her so intimately. She's so relaxed and she's so confident and she's created systems in her business that don't require her to show up all the time and she gets to rest. She gets to create, and she gets to show up when it's aligned for her. And I'm just so in awe of the choices that she's made to get there.

[00:51:36] I'm in awe of her and I can feel her and everything I'm doing right now is to close this time-space continuum and connect and meet up with her. It's difficult for me to have a career crush for someone outside of myself because I don't have a lot of examples of people being a hundred percent unapologetic in the way that they do business. [00:52:07] Sometimes I think I've found someone like that. And then I realized like, oh no, nope.

Karen: [00:52:16] No, it's still me.

Joi: [00:52:16] It’s really the case. Yeah. So, Yeah. Like I'm really genuinely trying to think, ‘cause I've had career crushes on people before, but then I found out things about their ethics or things like that have really pulled the curtain back and it made me have a hard stop.

There is one person who, Yeah. [00:52:40] And like, I know people have thoughts about cancel culture, but like as a black woman, I have no problem. [00:52:47] Like you can be cancelled when you come back, and you learn something new. We can put you back on the air. That's how I feel about it.

Karen: [00:52:54] Yeah.

Joi: [00:52:55] So there is one person. So, Sarah Morgan is a [00:53:00] digital product content creator. And she has a membership, and she runs a small group program and she has a podcast and blog posts, and she creates a lot of great digital products and helps other people do the same.

[00:53:18] I don't know her that intimately, but I do enjoy her content and I do like her business model. And it does seem like, you know, she sort of has things worked out where she doesn't have to show up all the time and she kind of has things that run for her. So, she would be someone who I definitely think is someone that I could potentially like look up to and, and model after.

[00:53:47] But I think another reason why I struggled with this question is because I try really hard to not consume too much of other people's content, just because I know I have so much to create within myself that needs to come out. So I just, I walk a really, really fine line. I love the concept though. I love the concept of having a career crush.

[00:54:07] I love the idea of like, you know, meeting someone and being like, oh my gosh, I just love how you did this, but for multi-passionates there are not a ton of it. The samples I can think of. Donald Glover! Also known as Childish Gambino.

Karen: [00:54:23] Yeah.

Joi: [00:54:25] Okay.

Karen: [00:54:26] Okay. Here you go. I can hear the energy.

Joi: [00:54:27] Okay. It took a while to get there.

Karen: [00:54:30] Yeah.

Joi: [00:54:31] Okay. This man is a playwright. He is a stand-up comedian. He is an actor. He is a musician. He's hot as fuck. He's gorgeous. And he does it all so well. And he does it with an air of Renaissance confidence. And there's probably other things he does that I have no idea about. Like, I bet he can draw or [00:55:00] paint or something. [00:55:01] Showing up and being that multi-passionate.  

Rihanna falls into this category too. And I appreciate that. She's just like, I don't want to sing anymore. I'm fully doing fashion. Everyone can just deal with it. I appreciate that in her as well as a multi-passionate. So, I think celebrities are the people who get away with being multi-passionate and that's why it's hard for me to think of a career crush.

[00:55:24] I know in the online business space, but it's easy for me to pull from a celebrity because they get the green path, just do whatever they want, because that's how our culture is. We just, you know, celebrities have no rules. Right? So, they get to do whatever. So, I think that's really illuminating though. Just how hard it was for me to get through that question.

Karen: [00:55:44] Well, I think the other thing is too, that may be a career crush is not what you need right now. Like, I think there are times where there's the energy of a crush that it's so exciting like when I've kind of stumbled across someone who I just think is so cool. I think it just, and to see how they're doing something so unique or doing up a bunch of things, 00:56:06] so uniquely, has given me permission to think about what is the unique thing that I bring to the world. Not like, oh, I'm going to be exactly like that person and do all the things they're doing, but just to go, oh, that's possible. So, I'm not going to say that everybody needs to have a career crush all the time, but maybe if you were like lacking motivation or inspiration, keeping your eyes open might help to energize you, you know?

Joi: [00:56:35] It's literally my future self though. Like literally if I think about my ultimate career, I think about, I just think about me in the future and I think I'm obsessed with her. And everything I do every day in my life is just to get closer to her because she did it. She did it and I can [00:57:00] feel her rooting for me. I can feel her saying, you can do this your way. It's going to be great. Like, I can feel her. And yeah, it's all for her. It's also that I can close the time-space continuum and be her.

Karen: [00:57:19] Oh, so powerful. It's funny. ‘Cause sometimes I ask people like, what would you say to that past version of yourself that was struggling. But you have now that future version of yourself saying, you know, you've got this.,

Joi: [00:57:34] Yeah. She's like, it'll all be worth it. Pumps. Sit with me and drink this pina colada.  

Karen: 00:57:43] Oh, I love it. Oh, well, thank you so much for spending this time with me. People can find you on your website, right?

Joi: [00:57:58] Yes. People can find me at Joi-knows-how.com. It's Joi with an I and a dash between each word. You can also connect with me on Instagram @joi.knows.how. Joi with an eye and a period in between each word.  And yeah, I have a membership community that doors are going to be opening up this summer. So that's something, depending on the timing of your hearing this, might be an option.

[00:58:27] If you are looking for ongoing mentorship and the way that I provide it, which is in a small group setting, and if you're looking to connect with the community were talking about the multi-passionate experience is the norm, I'm so proud to say, I have built that community for you. And I also will have my ebook coming out and you can keep up with all of those things by either following me on Instagram or going to my website.

Karen: [00:58:53] Yeah, and I love your newsletters too. We all get newsletters from everybody and it's like, it's so rare to enjoy them, but yours are really enjoyable.

Joi: [00:59:06] Thank you so much.

Karen: [00:59:08] One of those ways to keep up with people. Like, it sounds silly to say, but you know, it's so rare that you get those that are like such a lovely little magical, you have to get in your inbox.

Joi: [00:59:20] thank you so much. I'm really grateful to say that that's the general response and, you know, I'll give my newsletter secret away of how I do that.

Karen: [00:59:29] Oh yes.

Joi: [00:59:30] You ready for this?  Okay. So, I send out emails usually either on Friday or Saturday morning. If I have nothing to say, I skip a week. I don't force myself to have something to say. And the way I write my newsletters is that Monday through Thursday, I live my life. I see what lessons are coming up from me. What message has been sort of repeating itself through whatever, just the living of life. And then I get the download. And then on Thursday or Friday, I write my email.

[01:00:07] I do not batch them in advance. I do not schedule them out. They're all organic. And I write them each week based on my life experience and every single week people reply and tell me it's exactly what they needed to hear. So that's how I write emails.

Karen: [01:00:24] Hmm. I think, you know, it must be that we can pick up on that energy that it's fresh and that you didn't write it three months ago or whatever.

Joi: [01:00:33] Yeah. Yep. I mean, sometimes I'm like, ooh, I should repeat this one and turn it into a blog post, or I'll make it an article inside of my communities. People can go back to it, but it feels so good to connect with my audience in a way that's like, here's what I went through this week, I bet I’m not the only one. So, you know, here's that message. And sometimes it is just like, hey, I'm teaching this class y'all should come. You know?

Karen: [01:01:00] Yeah.

Joi: [01:01:01] There's a balance of both.

Karen: [01:01:03] That's also what I'm thinking about this week.

Joi: [01:01:05] Yeah?

Karen: [01:01:06] Yep.

Joi: [01:01:07] Exactly.

Karen: [01:01:10] Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here. We'll link up your website and your socials in the show notes and I'll see you around in your collective.

Joi: [01:01:19] Okay. Thank you so much for having me, Karen, thank you.

Karen:  Glad you could be here.

Michelle Ward was an actress who gave up her Broadway dreams to become a business coach. How did that happen? We discuss the many ups and downs, how she created her intentional career as the CEO of the 90 Day Business Launch and how she helps creative women launch businesses.

I’m your host, Karen Styles, Career + Life Coach and owner of Flow + Fire Coaching. Ready to create your Intentional Career? Schedule a call with me.

My guest is Michelle Ward is CEO of the 90 Day Business Launch. She is a business coach who guides creative, multi-passionate women to become entrepreneurs. Since 2008, she’s helped hundreds of these women launch their dream businesses.

Interview Highlights:

[3:00] Michelle talks about a few of the 20 jobs she had in 7 years of being an actor in New York City.

[7:13] Michelle starts to realize she doesn’t want this kind of work anymore, and that she needs to be an entrepreneur.

[14:04] Michelle’s breaking point. An embarrassing moment on a busy subway platform that proved to her she really HAD to make a change in her career. 

[19:40] The problem with jobs that are good “on paper,” why you shouldn’t talk yourself into those jobs, and how to listen to that little voice that tells you you need something different. We discuss how we’re getting better at listening to intuition.

[34:07] The advice Michelle ignored - to her benefit - both as an actor and as a coach, and how she knew she was doing the right thing. Why it’s good to be a gatekeeper in your business.

[43:35]  Michelle discusses her business-launching clients, how making big shifts is equal parts scary and exciting, and how the emotional shit is holds people back.

[45:27] We discuss the mythology that successful people “Leap and the net will appear,” why baby steps actually work, and how to define your own safety net.

[48:52] Michelle’s Career Crushes:

• VP Wright - Website | Instagram
• Trudi Lebron - Website | Instagram
• Rebekah Boruki - Instagram
• RowHouse Publishing - Patreon | Instagram
• Austin Channing Brown - Website | Instagram
• Nicole Cordoza - Website | Instagram
• Anti-Racism Daily - Website | Instagram

Resources:

• Michelle’s 90 Day Business Launch - Website [affiliate link] | Instagram
• Follow Karen on Instagram
• Wayfinder Life Coach Training - Website
• Kristine Miguel of Caritas Company - Website | Instagram 

Subscribe Today!

• Subscribe on Apple Podcasts
• Subscribe on Spotify
• For more episodes, check out The Intentional Career Podcast website

Schedule a Call

Ready to create your Intentional Career? Schedule a call with Karen Styles, Career + Life Coach and owner of Flow + Fire Coaching.

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Follow Karen on Instagram, Facebook, or LinkedIn.

---

Transcription - Broadway Dreams to Business Coach with Michelle Ward

[00:00:00] Karen: I'm Karen Styles and this is the Intentional Career Podcast. I talk to all kinds of people who take all kinds of paths to work they love. I'm a career and life coach and owner of Flow and Fire coaching. If you're ready to create your intentional career with the support of a coach, schedule a call with me.

There's a link in the show notes, or you can go to intentionalcareer.co and click the blue "Schedule a Call button".

Today on the show, my guest is Michelle Ward, CEO of the 90 Day Business Launch. Michelle is a business coach who guides creative multi-passionate women to become entrepreneurs since 2008. She's helped hundreds of women to launch their dream businesses so they can get the freedom, authenticity, and fulfillment they're seeking in their day-to-day lives.

Michelle is also my first business coach and she [00:01:00] is one of the biggest, maybe main reasons that I even have a business today. So welcome Michelle. I'm so thrilled to have you here today.

Michelle: You know, right before we started, I was , where am I at tissues? I'm going to need them. I'm already gonna need them. Thank you, that was beautiful and I love that. I get the distinction of being your first coach. First business coach.

Karen: It's exciting. You're.. Were you my first coach? Probably. Probably my first.coach too. Um, yeah, it's funny to think back. And I'm , could I have done this without you? Maybe? But I don't know, you have the way to just , get it done, get the thing done.

Michelle: Yay!  Yes, totally, and there's definitely a way...  We all have capability of doing this, but it's this blessing and a curse of wanting to be a business owner in 2021 or  2019, when we worked together that , Oh my gosh, there's so many different [00:02:00] ways I could go about this. And there's so many free resources and whatever, and , yay! And also, Oh my God, because where do I start? And what do I do? And it's so overwhelming. What's actually going to get me there.

Karen:  Right? Yeah, absolutely. And I think, there are  all of these paths that we could take to get to our intentional career. And for me, a big part of it was working with you, um, to get to a place where I'm , Oh, I know I'm now in the right place, because for many, many years before that I was questioning things all the time.

And so I wanted to talk to you about, you know, how you create it, your intentional career. And then, and then of course, how you help creative women do that as well in the form of creating a business.

Michelle: Yes!

Karen: So I know that  you've mentioned in a number of places that you had a bunch of jobs before a bunch of different jobs before you became a business coach. Can you  off the top of your head , what are some of the different things that you've done kind of before you got [00:03:00] to where you are?

Michelle: Yeah. I mean, well, I counted Karen, right?  I counted at one point. Yeah and because I was pursuing acting as career, I was definitely a stereotypical actor of, let's have a million different day jobs to, you know, pay my New York City rent and, and try to have a life when I was in my early to mid twenties. Um, and so yeah, we could say, I  dressed up as a 1-800-FLOWERS gift box during the holidays. And went to stand on the Today Show, Plaza. And  Good Morning America...

Karen: Wait, you were dressed as a gift box?

Michelle: Oh yeah, I was.  I'm so glad...

Karen: Do you have a picture?

Michelle: No, I do not. No one's ever going to see it, amen and hallelujah. There was no YouTube. There was no nothing back then. The Today Show we didn't get on camera, there were so many people there. I was very thankful, but then we went to Good Morning America and there was nobody there. So they saw me and the two, um, and the two people I was with from 1-800-FLOWERS [00:04:00] and immediately came up to us and they were , we're going to put you on after the next segment.

And they gave me a bunch of talking points. They were , no, we want to talk to you instead of the people from marketing that were with me from 1-800-FLOWERS so I was definitely on camera, Good Morning America dressed as a 1-800-FLOWERS gift box,  spewing talking points for their holiday promotion or whatever  that. That's definitely something I did.

Karen: And it was kind of a good acting moment also?  Almost? Or improv...?

Michelle:  All those was all those things. Um, and it paid. And I remember this distinctly a paid $50 an hour, which back in probably, you know, 1999 or you know 2000 was  a million dollars an hour to me. So I was , yeah, you want me to get up at 5:00 AM in the,  the freezing December cold of New York city and stand outside for six hours with  a, you [00:05:00] know, 20 pound fabricated box with flowers in my face? , sure, sign me up, whatever. So I did stuff  that. I,  ushered at movie premieres, I was a hostess. I was an office manager. I helped a big casting director um, not only  be an assistant during the audition, but somehow I got hired to take all of their expenses,  from the, from the week and  bill them to the correct projects.

So I had, uh, I had to take all the receipts and put them together for every show that they needed to put an expense report to, to get reimbursed. And , even though I did the math wrong 47 different times they never fired me, basically.

Karen: So you were a bookkeeper, basically.

Michelle:  It was not bookkeeping. It was , it was , if you spend $2 on a cup of coffee while you're [00:06:00] going to an audition,  you could bill that show that you're auditioning for your cup of coffee sort of thing. It was , I had to take the receipt from, from, you know, the big deli that said $2 for coffee and tape it on a piece of paper and then  add it with a calculator to  the food and drinks tab or the thing I did it wrong all the time.

Karen: I'm getting the sense maybe it was a little mind numbing?

Michelle:  Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. But it was still , it was great because they let me.  They were , we just care that it's done. You could come when you want and leave. When you want however many hours it takes, we don't care. We just need to get it done and submit it.

Anyway, I did real estate. I've D I D  so many. I had 20 jobs in seven years. From the time I  graduated with my BFA in acting to becoming a coach and starting my business.

Karen: So then what happened? , because obviously there's the BFA and the dream you're in New York city [00:07:00] and the dream is probably the bright lights of Broadway. And so, and then you became a business coach. So how does that happen?

Michelle: So what kind of happened was that once I was in my mid to late twenties, I finally started listening to the voice that started off as very, very, very tiny in the back of my heads. Very quiet said, Michelle, you don't want to do this anymore.

You don't want to do this anymore. You're not going to do this anymore. And I was just , shut up, shut voice. What are you talking about? , it was such a huge part of my identity was being a musical theater, performer, pursuing acting. that it just was so ingrained with who I was, that it was , once I started questioning that it wasn't only, well, what do I do if I don't do this anymore?

But , who am I? It was that sort of existential felt  an existential crisis. And it took me probably a year to take that voice seriously. And it just kept getting louder and louder and [00:08:00] louder. And I finally, you know, looked in the mirror one day and said, You're not going on auditions. You're not doing that.

You want these different things acting life would make you have, and in terms of my lifestyle and. Um, how I wanted to spend my time and where I wanted to spend my time. Um, and once I came to terms with that, there was a grieving period as , feeling  you've lost your best friend and your right arm kind of at once.

Um, and I said, okay, well, I'm not going to be pursuing acting anymore. I want to be  a grownup and have grown up things that I didn't have with all these day jobs. I'm , I want a steady salary. That's gonna be direct deposited into my bank account every two weeks and I know how much money is going to be in there.

I want insurance, I want a 401k. Um, but also I think because I was pursuing my passion since I was six years old, it was [00:09:00] not acceptable for me to just go find a job that was just , well, it'll give me everything I need on paper. I wanted to feel fulfilled. I wanted to feel on purpose. I wanted to have it be an intentional work. I love the name of this podcast. Um, and so I. Set out to figure out, , what would that be for me? And the very first thing that I realized before I even knew what exactly I wanted to transition to, it was very clear that I needed to be an entrepreneur. So that was the first light bulb moment of , I am not going to be happy unless I'm working for myself because I never had a good working environment.

Um, there was always something that ruins, if not multiple somethings and. You know, even though I could place a lot of blame on, um, people that I worked with, there's a common denominator. When you keep going from job to job, to job, to job and things don't feel  a good fit and, you know, two thumbs pointing at myself, so...

Karen: It's such an annoying [00:10:00] realization.

Michelle: Right? Isn't it , Oh, I'm the problem, I guess, problem. And so then it became, well, what, well, what business do I want? What, what's my, what's this role as an entrepreneur and. I knew that I wanted it to focus on my relationship building skills. That's what I knew I was good at. That's what was super important to me.

I wanted to help people. Um, I wanted to focus on my communication skills and I considered therapy.. Being a therapist. I considered being , uh,  a matchmaker,  having  a dating,  doing that sort of stuff. And what became apparent was life coaching was going to be the best fit for me.

I checked out a lot of boxes and I should've known right at the start that I was going to turn it into career coaching. Um, but it took me a little while to go from, okay, well, life coaching. How, , what's my niche within life coaching? [00:11:00] It's getting to be the career coach that I needed at the time that I couldn't find, I could not find someone who worked with creative people and who  got it.

Um, I bought, "What color is your parachute?"  when I was going through all of this along with,  one of my best friends at the time who, she did the whole book and found this very, very specific subset of marketing. And she's , there are these three companies in New York City that do this kind of marketing and that, and she  got a job within a few months and was on her way.

I did three exercises of the book and then I threw it across the room.  This does not speak to me. This does not make sense to me. This is not. And so even though I kind of had no experience, no nothing other than being a creative person. And I've gone through this myself. Um, I said, this is what I want to do.

I want to be career coach for creative people. Um, I got my certification. I launched my business and probably [00:12:00] within a year or so I realized, I thought it was going to work with the actors, helping them when they realize it's time to leave the profession. What else could they do?

You?

Me? But I couldn't reach actors at that moment in time, or they're questioning leaving so really hard to do. Um, and I wound up attracting people who are actually stuck in very traditional left brain jobs who wanted to do something more creative. So I kind of wound up coaching,  the opposite thing than I thought I would. And I loved it. And then I realized, I think I'm a career coach for women, for creative women, not just creative people, because I had worked with so many at that point in time.

Um, and then I realized every woman who comes to me either is a business owner or wants to be one. And so that's kind of the evolution. This is a long story, but it's  this sped up evolution of the 13 years that I've been in business and how I became a business [00:13:00] coach for creative women over on this side of the table.

Karen: Yeah. It's cool to hear that the different steps. And I think, um, there's, I don't know. I think a lot of us business owners, we, we are kind of  trying to heal something in our own past by helping people. Um and maybe, maybe that's just what maybe partly that's just what coaches do. But you know, a lot of it it's  if I only had somebody to tell me this thing, it would have made all the difference.

Michelle: Yes! Yes! And I tell my clients all the time, your personal experience counts, and you really only need to be one step ahead of your client in order to be able to help that person. And so we trick ourselves into thinking, oh, I need these degrees. I need this professional experience in it. No, you just need to be passionate about what you're doing and who you're helping, and you need to be at least one step ahead that's [00:14:00] it, the end.

Karen: Okay. I want to ask you this question too. Did you have a moment where you kind of looked around? I know I've had these moments. I think they're, they're pretty common when people kind of decide they want to change, but they need to change their path. There's usually something that happens where you kind of look around and go, okay, this isn't working, I have got to do something different and have a moment  that?

Michelle: Yes. I call it my breaking point moment. Um, when I did. You know, finally make that decision of, I am not pursuing acting anymore. I need to, I want to find a grownup job that I could enjoy. And I found this job that on paper checked out all the boxes.

Um, it was utilizing those relationship building skills, my communication skills, um, the money was right. I was getting health insurance for the first time ever. It was, you [00:15:00] know, in, in NoHo, which is this great neighborhood in New York city. Um, it was a lot of young people. It wasn't necessarily a startup, but it had that feel.

Some people wore pajamas to work. It was just  an, in my, you know, mid to late twenties.  That was where I wanted to, to be. Um, and you know, the company was cool and doing, doing cool things and, um, It turned out that the manager - who  I really connected with during the interview - turned out to feel very threatened by his subordinates who were doing good jobs and he became verbally abusive. A huge bully and that's the point where I made myself psychosomatic. So much so that about a year into the job, maybe a little less -  cause I think I was only there a little bit more than a year or so -  I was on the subway coming from my apartment uptown, going downtown to work and I had to run off the subway at Union [00:16:00] Square station, which I since learned is the fourth busiest subway station in all of New York City, to give some kind of context as to  how many people were around,

I left in the middle of rush hour with thousands of people around me to dry heave, into a garbage can on the subway platform and then there was such a psychological hold that I didn't say, okay, I need to just go home and take a sick day. I said, I need to get to the office. So I went above ground, I walked the 20 ish blocks to the office.

I got my laptop. I got my Blackberry because that's how long ago this was. And it said to my colleagues, because my stupid manager wasn't even in the office yet. Um, and I said to my colleagues,  "spread the word I'm working from home." I just threw up in Union Square,  I gotta get myself home, but I have all my stuff I'll be working from home.

And the second I left, I felt absolutely fine. And that was, that was my breaking point of , Oh! So this isn't the job for you. This isn't the [00:17:00] place for you. This is, this job is making you sick to get out of here. Um, and that that's when I knew that things needed to change for sure.

Karen: It's funny. I've had those moments too. I'm thinking back to probably within the last five years, even in a job that was  a bridge job and good enough. And didn't stress me out, and I still had days where, , I had days where I threw up on the way to work. You know?

Michelle: And I think,  when you're just not... When you're the type of person who cares about doing a good job and the work that you're doing and how you spend, what do they say?  You spend a third of your life at work or something insane  that. Right? And you care about that. It's so, it's so hard.  When it's not... even if it's not toxic, right?  It's, it's not benign. You know what I mean? So I think, and I work with clients who they've been telling themselves and they sometimes still are [00:18:00] telling themselves this while they sign up to work with me that , "No, no, no. I should be really grateful. No, no, no. I should just be really thankful."

Karen: I SHOULD be grateful.

Michelle: I have it really good. , why am I sick? , just because it's not bad, doesn't mean that it's what you should be doing for the rest of your career.

Karen: Yeah. I literally have an Instagram post, half written and  the first line of it is," I should be grateful."

Michelle: Yes! Especially now. I mean, I. I started my business full time in the middle of the recession back in 2010. And, um, you know, I heard it then, and I hear it even more now, especially, you know, with COVID and, um, it's been awful how many industries have just been decimated and how many people have lost their jobs?

And, um, they're, they're, it's hard for them to even go back to the industry that they were working in, never the less  the particular job that they had. And so that lends [00:19:00] itself to anyone who has some sort of stability, or they go, "But I  my colleagues, but I'm making good money." But, uh, but  there's a reason why you're looking at my website or your website, or, you know, filling out an application or jumping on a consultation call.

And , you are allowed to have that job that gives you the grownup things that you need. And still know it's not enough for you.

Karen: Yeah. Yeah. I think it was really helpful for me to hear that from  friends from my partner. Um, when I was, you know, in a position where I felt  I'm in, I'm making the best money, I have the best people.  This is the best job I've had and it's still not good enough,you know?

Michelle:  And yet, and yet, that's when you know, you're the common denominator, I think. Um, and that's why it gets so upsetting when, on paper,  everything should fit. You [00:20:00] know, it's almost, everyone's had a, really, a romantic relationship  this somewhere where you go, this guy or this girl on paper is  the everything I'm looking for, but there's just a, not a spark. There's just not a thing. , and you try to make it, you go out on the fifth date and you  go and meet and then, you know, the whole time, , you know, this isn't who I want, isn't what I want.

Karen: Totally. Okay. I wanted to come back to the little voice you mentioned. The little voice that got louder and louder and louder because it's something that, you know, I had that too, and that just took a long time to listen to that. And I'd wanted to bring this up to you because you had that voice come back to you again more recently and make a big change in your business.

And, um, I know, I think, I don't know. Back last year I realized I was , okay, I'm just a turtle and that's okay. Right.  Maybe I move slowly because there's a couple of things going on. Right? There's this mythology, I think that says you have to do the big, [00:21:00] bold, brave, huge thing. And I started to realize that,

Michelle: [sound] Thumbs down raspberry.

Karen: Taking the small steps, doing the little things, following that voice little by little does actually make a big difference in the end. But one question I'm asking myself now is, do you think we're supposed to get faster at listening to that?

Michelle: Ohhh.

Karen: Or get better at listening? Because faster is also dives into this  hustle culture, capitalist... In a way I kind of think, I don't know. Does it benefit us to get better at listening to our intution?

Michelle: Yes. Yes. This is such an interesting question. I have, my intuition has been loud and quick and dead on probably over the last year where I just go, okay, I know what my intuition is telling me. And even if something else pops [00:22:00] up, I know - that's not a thing. That's not a thing , um, but it's, you know, I've been in business for 13 years. It took me six years to become a six figure, you know, business owner.

I think that, you know, it still makes me feel  I should have done it faster. I should, you know, I still look around and say, Oh, this person came up at the same time I did. And yet, she has a million dollar business, you know, a hundred thousand subscribers in her newsletter and how come I only have this many and it's so easy to do that.

So easy to do that. Um, but I think that. If you and this again, it's hard because in 2021, there is so much noise. There are so many sheds, there's so many different ways of doing things. And there are so many people who will tell you, this is the only way to do the thing, which makes me crazy. Um, I think the more you could say, this is what is true for me, but this is what, [00:23:00] um, is grounding me.

This is the message I'm receiving from myself. The more it's going to serve you. And, um, I think, you know, really listening to that voice, I always say there's no shortcuts to feeling  a confident business owner. Um, the only way it happens is with time and experience. And I think that that is true for listening to your intuition as well.

Um, and for me, You know, if I was  maybe a little more I'm pretty hippy-dippy right now, but I was not when I started this journey, if I was a little bit more... if I was  doing the meditation and stuff that I've been doing for the last few years earlier in my business, I might've heard, I might've heard that, that voice more often and quicker and louder, and I would have trusted that voice and followed that voice the way I do now.

But it's just taken me this long. Um, but yeah, the more you could. Tap into that, but I don't think it's about the speed of [00:24:00] it. I think it's just giving it space to , what do I need to know today? What do I need to know right now? What do I need to know about this offer? What do I need to know about this question?

And , I  to say I'm letting things simmer.  I have a real, amazing mastermind group that I go to and I'll say to them, I don't need solutions. I don't need answers. I don't need opinions. I'm just telling you what I had on the stove right now. And , if you want to tell me, you know, anything that comes up for you with what I have on a stove right now, , please...

Karen: Put a little seasoning in there.

Michelle: Yes. Tell me, well, what you, what you think that maybe will help my simmering. And then my writing simmer, and then usually there's something that I go, okay, that soup. It's done now taking it off the pot and eating it. Did this analogy work?

Karen: Totally does. No. And I think you're right. , it's not about the speed, but there was  some part of me that just wanted to ask that question, because you mentioned the voice and , you know, I had that too.

And I'm , what is, I think it, maybe it's just more about being [00:25:00] more connected to it? And I've had, I've had a similar experience too, where I think in the last year or two, I have a sense of, usually it's saying no to things,  saying no to something that I use to say yes to, I had a sense on this one evebt and I was , Hmm, I don't know, I think this year it's just not for me. And that was the beginning of 2020. And then,and it's funny though, cause you don't know logically why. Yeah. And then months later, the logic makes sense and you see some things and you go, Oh! So it's almost  a, maybe pre-cognition, that might be a bit of a stretch... There's some knowledge, something in me that knew something.

And I was , is this fear? And I was realizing , as I was thinking about it this week, it's different. There's a, , I want to do something I'm scared. That's a certain kind of feeling, but this was a. Um, I'm not sure. I'm just not sure that's right for me. And, um, it's interesting to see how that it's useful to listen to [00:26:00] that, even if I don't know why, because the logical reasons seem to become clear later on.

Michelle: Well, thankfully my parents, when I was growing up in the eighties during stranger danger, my parents taught me about what they call the Uh-Oh feeling, which I thought all 80s children grew up with. But I found out as a teenager and a young adult, , no, this was just something that was spoken about in my house, I guess.

And they taught me, you know, about the feeling. And they said, when you just have that feeling in your body, that's something's wrong. You might not be able to have your brain tell you what is wrong. You just have that feeling in your body. That's something is wrong. You need to get yourself out of that situation and go find a grownup right away.

Karen: So good!

Michelle: And it was so instrumental for me because as an adult, you know, it applies in so many situations, but it applies a lot in my business too, of just , this feels a little off. I don't know why [00:27:00] something about it isn't sitting well with me. And the more I listened to that and then say no to that thing. Um, the more it's worked out for me, whenever I try to talk myself into that thing and I tell my clients, this is where,  you say, Oh, this potential client came to me and , it'll be good to have a challenge.

Never fucking take that client! You know, you're trying to talk yourself into why this is a good thing or, you know, um, You might not know why it's not a good thing you might say. Okay. But I could help this person, but I could, ooh but I should do this thing. But, um, it doesn't matter. And you're right, usually something will be revealed later on saying that's why that didn't feel right. So, the Uh-Oh, feeling,

Karen: I love that. And I kind of got chills when you were talking about it. I'm , man, I wish I knew about the, Uh-Oh. Feeling and it's so helpful to know. Yeah, your brain might not know why, but your body does. That's , that was a huge part of my Wayfinder Life Coach Training. It's all about connected to your body and letting your body speak to you because [00:28:00] your body does know before your brain does.

Michelle: So true, it's so true. So true.

Karen: Um, I wanted to talk about. You know, what are the steps that you, maybe not all the steps, but maybe some of the important steps, whether big or small that you took kind of to get to the career you wanted, what were the important things that stood out that you needed to do?

Michelle: Oh my gosh. Um, you know, the things that I mentioned before, , It's about building relationships more than anything for me, this is selfishly why I do the work that I do and how I do the work that I do.

You know, there's a reason why you don't see any  on demand, passive income, take my thing and do it yourself. Or  you don't see, just hire me for a session or two where , that's enough. That could be helpful for others.  It's not very fulfilling for me. And I actually don't think it's as helpful.

As it is for those longer term things. So, you know, [00:29:00] even though 90 Day Business Launch is primarily a group program, I will do it one-on-one. But the groups are  20 women. I don't plan on blowing up these groups in the future. The way I'm scaling my business. I'm going to have a group ... NO., cause I want to know that 20 women in here and there will probably be 17, 18 of these women that show up consistently that I really get to know.

And that is what gets me up in the morning, what I'm excited about, so there's that relationship building piece. There's the, um, communication skills piece? I just always knew that I was a good communicator. That probably was my acting background. Um, wasn't shy about public speaking. I always felt that I was a good writer.

I was just able to, um, have those relationships with people in that way. You know, I think that...  I'm a competitive person. Okay. Let's say that. Right. I'm a competitive, so [00:30:00] there's something that entrepreneurship too. You know, I've been in sales before for better or for worse. And  that stuff didn't scare me.

, I'm definitely not a, yay let's go market my business and try it. But, um, especially now, I don't know, maybe I'm maybe I have a selective memory,  back then, I was still nervous to approach people and tell them what I was doing, but I was  felt okay, writing my blog and going on Twitter and, you know, writing the newsletter and  telling people about what I was doing.

And I think it was just that helping piece. Um, and it's funny because you know, the other job I could have had was in real estate for sure. If I wanted to do real estate, I would not be talking to you right now.  I would be million dollar real estate,  real estate. Um, I did New York city rentals for a year in.

Oh, I guess it was  2002, 2003. And then, [00:31:00] and I was the number one agent in my office, I think five or six times in my first full year there. And I made more money than I've ever seen in my life, but I worked. All the time. And then I said, I can't keep up this hustle. I want to do, um, I want to do sales instead of rentals and New York city, that was just my death for a lot of reasons that we don't need to get into. But I  dug myself in a $20,000 credit card hole. It was , Real bad. Um, but there's something between  the real estate. And even me looking at  opening up a matchmaker service and  the career coaching, their business coaching, where it's , you're matching  people with ,  their homes or their partners or the careers that they want to.

There was ...

Karen: a thread.

Michelle:  something, something, there was a thread there. Um, that felt really good for me. And even, even when I was doing real estate, I think what. I hated so much part of what I hated so much [00:32:00] was  the stereotype that came along with specifically New York city, real estate agents that , Oh, everyone's going to suck you dry and they're slimy and they're going to lie to you

and, um, and I was just , no, I'm, I'm here to be, you know, truthful and honest and help people. And, um, so those were kind of. The important pieces, I think. And then, you know, just the freedom piece that comes with being a business owner that I think is the driving force for the vast majority of my clients.

. Especially being women. And mostly I work with women in their thirties and forties. Um, they want freedom over their time and their commitments and who they're working with and when and on what, and, um, the financial freedom, um, whether they're the breadwinners or they're, you know, stay at home moms who want to contribute financially, or they are somewhere in between.

It's , They want to make a certain amount of money, [00:33:00] um, in order to support the lifestyle that, that they want. Um, so that, that was all connected to, I just felt  I had better, even, even though it felt very risky and scary. And what am I doing? Quitting my "stable job." and I'll put stable in quotes, um, stable job in the middle of the recession to go be, you know, my other business was called the When I Grow Up Coach, to be the When I Grow Up Coach of all , stupid things to do. It just felt so silly, but, you know, I just knew this is how I help people. I already have a foundation, I'm getting good results and, um, I got my, I chose to get my certification. Because I didn't even work with a coach before I decided to be one, but I knew I was a good coach right off the bat because of the communication piece, because of the relationship building piece, because I was a creative person talking to a creative person.

Um, so I think that had to be key too, in terms of, you [00:34:00] know, who do I want to work with? Who do I want to help? Who do I want to talk to really key.

Karen: Is there any advice you ignored,  to your benefit?  Other than, uh, what is it, what color is your parachute?

Michelle: Yes! I mean, I couldn't even ignore that advice was I couldn't even get to the part where there was any advice to ignore.

I  couldn't even, but you know what I mean? Um, you know, I ignored, I ignored the advice that I got for a long time as an actor that I feel  once I ignored that advice as an actor, my acting career, um, started growing, but it was  a little too. It was  a little too late, too little, too late.

Um, I was taught as an actor. To really  blend in and  don't wear, don't wear clothes that distract from your face and  go in and, you know, sing the song that's just right for the part in the show. And , I was a girl in my [00:35:00] twenties and you go to an audition and there are 400 girls in their twenties.

And, um, I was taught these specific marketing things that did not serve me with the type of roles that I was always cast as, and how I sang and performed. And once I made the intentional decision, I'm going to take all of that and throw it in the garbage and what I'm going to do is that I know I'm cast as the comedic sidekick character role.

And I am going to take my headshots with a polka dotted dress, which is always  a, no-no  a bright blue background.  Just distract the shit out of them, but show my personality and show up in a, I had a dress that  , looked  candy dots with a matching headband. And I wore this dress everywhere and I just saw the room change when I walked in.

, here I fucking am,  time to  listen to me. And I was getting more [00:36:00] callbacks, I was getting more parts,  and I was getting remembered more where , I would get a phone call saying, you want this in for us eight months ago. You weren't right for that, but we're remembering you for this. Could you come in? And I thought I'd be really stupid if I didn't take that advice and bring it into my business when I started my business.

So even though it was very tempted to be very professional in business, right. Um, I resisted that I was , I need to show my potential clients who I am before they even necessarily walk in the room. Um, quote unquote, and I want them to know what they're getting into. I want them to know who I am and what it's  to work with me.

And so I'm not shying away from, you know, wearing similar clothes and having bright blue website and, and all of that stuff. And , saying "Oy Vey" in my copy and, and, you know, not having those stock photos of people in suits, shaking hands, sad.

Karen: Arms crossed.

Michelle: Yeah. [00:37:00] Conference rooms with this, you know, um, and my own dad who meant, well,  told me when I first launched my website, "This does not look professional, I would not hire you." And, um, if it wasn't for the experience I had as an actor, I would have probably said, "Oh my gosh, you're so right.  I need to change everything" I need to, you know, and I said to him, "thank you so much, but I don't want to work with businessmen in their sixties." And I think that by representing myself in this way, I'm going to appeal to, you know, at the time my, my ideal audience was  creative people in their twenties, thirties, forties, who

need help working with someone  me on some, some, something  this. And I think I'm going to attract my right people. So , I kind of told my dad, thank you but no thank you and he gave one of those dad grumbles of just , well, you can do what you want, but yeah, you'll see. And  probably the best phone, but one of the best phone calls I ever received in my life was him calling me [00:38:00] about a year later, maybe, maybe a little less, but I was still at my day job and I got a phone call from a writer at Newsweek and he was , I'm doing a video article, life coaching. And can I interview you? You could be part of this article? And I was , yes, of course. And I called in sick to work. It was  the next day I called in sick to work and he spent almost the whole day with me. And when the article came out, It was an article. It was an article about life coaching, but it was only me, he didn't talk to anyone else. And my dad said to me, forget it, just do what you're doing. I obviously don't know what I'm talking about. And it was  the best phone call of my life, of my life.

Karen: Yeah. And so interesting how those, , you know, quote unquote failures, um, of , you know, Failure to follow your own instinct in acting. And then when you did it made you stand out, got where you wanted and then, and then you use that,  could see how you could connect with your real [00:39:00] audience. And then that's a message, obviously that you, speak to the people that the women that you're working with too. And it's , this is not about making you look  everybody else. This is about what the heck is that maybe that weird, quirky thing about you that everyone needs to know so that your people can just, you know, be magnetized to you.

Right, totally.

Michelle: And I think that along with that, and maybe this is  a little bit, I don't know, going against that in a, in a way, but , You don't have to say, I'm going to take this quirk and I'm going to magnify this... I'm going to find my people because I love animal crossing so I'm going to put animal crossing out.

It doesn't have to be that literal. It's just, who are, who are you? How are you going to show up? Just show, you know, if you're someone who wears bright colors and whatever,  pictures and wear bright colors, if you're some, I mean, I'm someone who, bring on the exclamation points, right? , and I'm, I'm giving you exclamation [00:40:00] points and.

I tell my clients all the time and I, and I see this for myself too. You want to be a gatekeeper and by being a gatekeeper, that's actually, sometimes I think we feel  it's selfish, but that's actually a very selfless thing to do, because I know there are people that come to my website and look at my stuff and go, Oh my gosh, this woman is too energetic for me.

What is up with all of her exclamation points? It's does not look professional. And I want those people to go away right from the start. So they could find the person that they resonate with,  go and I don't want to talk to them because they're not right for, for my work. We won't be in a good relationship together.

So let's not waste everyone's time. And let's , keep that gate closed for those people. Um, and that's how you wind up with clients who are just dream clients from the heavens that you go. I don't even, I mean, there were years in my business where I had no application. I had no consultation calls. It was just , Hey, this is how I work with you.

Buy now! And I would have people [00:41:00] give me $2,000, never having spoken to me, never me not knowing anything about them. And I was nervous about it every single time. And I would get in the first session and I'd be , Oh, this is my person. And it was a million percent because I showed up just as myself in my marketing online, whatever, and they knew what they were getting themselves into.

Karen: It's interesting because  being yourself as such a practice, I think  yourself, I don't know, out loud in public, whether that is it doesn't have to be on Instagram. I guess that's one of the ways I think about it, but, um, When I've started creating content, it sounds so, but when you start writing and then realize, Oh, there's this thing I think.

And uh, I thought everybody thought it. I thought everybody knew this and I just say it out loud. And then, you know, people respond to it and then, Oh, I have actually more to say about that. And then going with that, you start to even discover what you think too and go, Oh, this is what I think, Oh, this is who I am.

Oh. And, [00:42:00] and this process is really helping me. That's the weirdest thing. I've, I've heard. Um, a, one of the courses I took recently Bookkeeping Bootcamp with my friend, Kristine from Caritas company. Um, the, one of the guest speakers said that entrepreneurship is the fastest vehicle to personal growth.

Michelle: Yes, a million percent.

Karen: It's so true. And sometimes it feels so annoying because the thing that you're learning, it feels  it's so vulnerable and tender. You kind of have to  put it out to the world. Where, you know, usually nobody's really paying attention anyway, so it doesn't matter, but you're , ooh I gotta put that on my website.

Michelle: I know. Well, and the whole thing too, you know, the women that come to me and want to work with me, never say, Michelle, I'm just looking to start the business.

It's gonna make me the most amount of money. I don't care about it emotionally. I'm totally detached.  I just want to make money.  Those are not. And those, I would imagine are not the people listening to The Intentional Career Podcasts and lik, amen and hallelujah for those [00:43:00] people.

Karen: There are many podcasts for those people. That's fine.

Michelle: A million percent. Um, but when you care about your work and it is. In a space that leads to you being fulfilled and feeling on purpose in your own life. There is so much emotional stuff attached to that. And so that's where I think even the bigger self-development self knowledge, um, comes from. And I, I totally agree with everything you said.

Um, you know, I'm reminding. My launchers especially right, right now in this moment that we're recording, they're  two or three weeks away from their, um, from their launch day.

Karen: Oh, it's scary!

Michelle: It's so scary!

Karen: And exciting.

Michelle: And exciting. My favorite: equal-ish amounts of fear and excitement. Um, and I just keep telling them, you have to remind yourself you're going through an identity shift.

, this is [00:44:00] big. This is hard. You're going from whatever you've identified yourself with for however many years, whatever roles you've had in your life. You are now shifting it to say. I'm a business owner. I'm an entrepreneur. I have this other thing. And  that is you. So try and, you know, we have to take care of ourselves.

We can't minimize our stuff. We can't  there are, I say, people come to 90 Day Business Launch because of the logistics and the plan and the clear steps, and they stay for all the emotional shit. That's what keeps me in business. Is that, so much?Emotional shit. I hope I could curse that comes up with this and that could really be what, what pulls you under, um, and what prevents you from getting to launch day?

Karen: Yeah, I think it's, it's, uh, learning that  I can be terrified and still do [00:45:00] something or, I can be imperfect. Maybe that's one of the biggest,  move forward to know that  I'm going to work hard and make this as good as I can. And there's a point where you go, I gotta put this out publicly and move forward and see what happens because I'm going to learn so much from doing that and seeing what you know, potential clients come my way and all of that stuff rather than trying to be perfect before I show anybody anything.

Michelle: Thank you. And going back to what you said earlier about baby steps. I mean, I think that the advice that we've all heard is  "Leap and the net will appear." And so where, you know, we have that thing. And, no, no. , no, especially when you're an adult who says it's not acceptable for me to live in my parents' basement or  live with 10 roommates or eat ramen every day or whatever.

This is not, you do not need to fly off the cliff and hope you don't crash and die at the bottom. I  to say to my clients, what we're doing here is we [00:46:00] are taking step-by-step. We're on a safety net that is resting on the ground and you're walking right on top of the safety net until eventually you, you look down and you say, Oh, there's no safety net anymore.

I'm walking on my own. The safety that's behind me, safety net is not. A million feet off the ground. You were not on the high wire. You are not. No, no. And I think the people who see it that way, I know  former clients that I've worked with, you know, I've been in business now for 13 years, the ones who are  wanting to get there quickly, the ones who were , I'm going to blow up my life to do this and not the ones who are still in business now that's for sure. And I don't think that's a coincidence.

Karen: Yeah. And I think that was, I think one of the things that helped me trust you. Just to say , because there is still this mythology that the successful people take the leap. Right? And so even as I was working with you and going, Oh, I'm still, I still have a day job, I have my business, you know, pushing.

Oh, I'm not doing it fast enough. I'm [00:47:00] not doing it right. There's somebody else who quit their day job before me. All of these comparison things, but also to go, okay, I am on my path, I'm taking the steps and it's okay. And I guess I'm, I'm trying to share that message too, right? You don't have to  quit the job and storm out to find the right thing.

Maybe, maybe you're going to listen to yourself a little bit more. Maybe , who knows what those things are gonna be. Those little steps can get you to where you want to be.

Michelle: And what's in your safety net? What's in your saftey net can be different. It's going to be the same. It's funny. I used to  when I used to teach, , I had a workshop called an effective escape that any 90 Day Business Launcher registering gets for free.

I this for years and different formats. And I used to teach it as , Your a safety net might consistent these things. And now I go, here's what you're going to need. There's always going to be a certain amount of money in the [00:48:00] bank, but that's what differs is  everyone's comfort level is different and there will be the day. if you want to be a full-time entrepreneur, there will be the day that you do have to go into your manager's office or boss' office and say, I want to give my two weeks notice.  You're going to have to leap at that point. But that to me is not leaping and hoping the net will appear that is the leaping and saying , I'm going to take the stairs down, down this canyon.

And then , there's a safety net that I'm going to walk across.  I've created a bridge to get, and I'm going to walk across it because I have X amount of money in the bank because my website's up because I've already worked with clients because I have an email list, , okay, I've laid the foundation now I'm ready to take the leap. But the leap is smaller. and yes, all of those things.

Karen: Love it. Okay. I want to ask you, who's your career crush, who is, or was your career crush? Do you have any ready that you're , Oh [00:49:00] my gosh, that you kind of  fawn over,  or are you  so high up there that you're ...

Michelle: Oh my god! You're hilarious, you're so hilarious. Thank you that is very kind that You even said that to me. No, I have so many  career crushes. I mean, I have business crushes, but it's funny because I'm so disenchanted, especially lately with the social justice movements and stuff that , I, you know,  if you asked me four months ago, I would have a different answer than I have today after having  some behind the scenes knowledge of someone who I really admired and wanted to work with about I'm going to do the thing that..

And then I'm , Oh, I don't  the way. So I think I need to send a shout out right now to VP Wright. I am taking her Inclusive Entrepreneur program. And that's  been a 12 week journey that is ending this week that we're recording. Um, and what she has done with a business that is [00:50:00] rooted for creatives, but  in ethics and in her own zone of genius, and her knowledge, the way she works with clients, is just. so , yes. Yes. And, um, I brought her on to lead monthly group coaching, private monthly group coaching calls with my Black, Indigenous Women of Color Launchers while they're in the program. And I'm not there, so I don't know what they're talking about and we don't record it. I know I'm not there, but I've gotten such amazing feedback.

And I think that, you know, her and Trudi LeBron, and, um, According to Weeze and Anti-Racism Daily, Nicole Cordoza, Austin Channing Brown.  These women are just lighting me up right now and I'm learning so much from them. And, um, Ooh, Ooh, who is it? It's Rowhouse Press? [00:51:00] I think her Instagram handle is  Bexlife?

Karen: Bexlife, yeah. Rebekah Boruki?

Yeah.

Michelle: And she's starting this whole new publishing company where, I heard her on Trudi LeBron's podcast, just going through, , here's how we're disrupting this industry that is not working. And we're partnering with. Authors of color and they're, they're becoming  partners, and this is, this is what they're getting.

And they're getting these  livable advances and they're getting that. It was so amazing. So I think those sorts of, um, women and people in businesses are just super, super, super inspiring. So those are my, those are my crushes.

Karen: That's awesome. I remember watching, I can't remember when it was maybe end of last year, there was a live that Rebecca BexLife did and she was talking about, / um, [00:52:00] How white supremacy is keeping you from abundance.

And I watched this thing and she was talking about how, , you know, Black and Brown Indigenous people of color, they have communities and in white supremacy, we lack that because it's all about competition. And I was listening to her going...

Michelle: I need to find this.

Karen: I don't get this. I don't, I couldn't, my brain wasn't computing it.

And I was , this is why she's right. Because they know there's something inside me going , yeah but you're not actually a success if you don't do it alone. And I was , Oh my goodness. Um, and so yeah, I'm with you on that. I think it's really. Important to learn from, you know, Black, Indigenous, Women of color to... because I know I have something to learn from them that I'm not going to learn from the, I don't know, the six figure seven figure, you [00:53:00] know, white life coaches.

Michelle: Yeah.  We all know, insert this name here. Right?

Karen: And we've been watching it fall apart and it's really interesting as I'm new in my business going okay, how do I want my business to be different and not be based in white supremacy.

Yes. And I love

Michelle: this stuff is toppling that, you know, things that I was taught back in 2008 and things that are still being taught and just these, you know, very unethical, marketing tactics that, you know, it's crumbling. And I think it's going to be really interesting seeing what rises up and who rises up and, , it's all gonna be for the better, all of it. All of it.

Karen: Yeah. Yeah.

And I think we're creating new economies too, because I'm kind of  looking at the people that are, I'm , they're already rich enough. Um, you know, if I'm going to hire [00:54:00] somebody. You know, who, what other businesses can I support? What other communities can I support? How can I send my money into different directions versus, up a pyramid where the person at the top gets the most and the other people don't, you know? Done with that.

Yep.

Michelle: It's exactly. Right. Exactly right.

Karen: Well, thank you so much for being on the podcast. You're my first recorded, my first interview. I don't know if you'll be the first one released, but the first one to record. I'm so excited that I got to do this with you

Michelle: So honored. Thank you for asking me. I could just, Oh my gosh have we really been talking that long?  I can just sit with you all afternoon.

Karen: I could too. So people can find you. Where can people find you . On Instagram?

Michelle: Yes, Instagram @90daybizlaunch B-I-Z just to shorten it up a bit. And then 90daybusinesslaunch.com. If you want to check out the program, you can go right to 90daybusinesslaunch.com/program, [00:55:00] um, where enrollment, when this goes up, I think we're going to be enrolling our summer session. Um, so that will be, Oh, no, wait, we'll be enrolling our fall session. We'll be, yeah, you'll be early for the fall session, but , I have lots of goodies if you're early, even more than I show on my website.

Cause sometimes they don't have the time to get my crap together to put my goodies on my website. So just  if you're interested in that fall session, go check out the program, go apply. Tell me where you came from and say, "Michelle, I want some goodies," and I will get back to you with my personalized thoughts on your application.

That has no obligation to it and the goodies.

Karen: Yeah. Yes. Awesome. Thank you so much. I'm so grateful to have you here.

Thank you so much for listening. It means so much that you chose to spend part of your day with me. If you enjoyed this episode, go to Apple podcasts and leave a five [00:56:00] star review. It helps other people find the podcast. And my hope is that if more people find the Intentional Career Podcast, then more people can create their own intentional careers.

If you're ready to create your intentional career with the support of a coach, schedule a call with me. There's a link in the show notes, or you can go to intentional career.co and click the blue "Schedule a Call" button in the top right corner. Episodes of the podcast are released every second Wednesday.

So I'll see you in two weeks for more of the Intentional Career Podcast.

Kristine Miguel shares her story of trading a traditional accounting career for love - but not the way you think! I was curious about her transition from her linear CPA career path to starting her own business based on love, financial education, and empowerment. We discuss the challenges she faced and the lessons she learned while creating her intentional career; and some thoughts on spirituality and the coaching industry.

I’m your host, Karen Styles, Career + Life Coach and owner of Flow + Fire Coaching. Ready to create your Intentional Career? Schedule a call with me.

My guest is Kristine Miguel, owner of Caritas Company. She’s a Chartered Professional Accountant, mom, small business owner and all-around financial hype woman. She offers startups, entrepreneurs and side-hustlers an approachable way to face their fear around money and combat overwhelm so they can build and grow a financially sustainable business. 

Interview Highlights:

[2:00] Kristine falls into an accounting career because of her love for math.

[3:30] Accounting as a linear path, and Karen’s wish for an “easy” path when experiencing career angst.

[8:11] 10 years into her career, Kristine starts to question if she wants to do something else, and gets frustrated with things like IFRS standards.

[14:00] Kristine gets jealous of (and inspired by) a CPA who carved her own path.

[15:46] What’s the meaning behind Caritas Company?

[17:00] Surrendering to a greater power, love as a number one value and, oh my goodness are we still talking about accounting careers right now?

[22:00] The people who inspired Kristine on her path.

[26:58] The advice Kristine ignored (to her benefit).

[30:00] The advice or support Kristine would give to her past self.

[35: 28] Why feelings about work matter, why we suppress those feelings - especially as women, and speculate on how it might be different for men. 

[37:27] When having a coach can help, why a coach was the first person Kristine hired. Kristine ponders coaching and we discuss whether coaching should be regulated.

[43:43] Karen goes on a tangent about the difference between coaching, consulting, and mentoring.

[48:32] Kristine’s talks about her career crush, Lisa Zamparo

[52:09] Kristine’s business offerings.

Resources:

• Kristine Miguel - Caritas Company : Website | Instagram
• Slay the Mic / Jam Gamble - Website | Instagram
• Trudi Lebron - Website | Instagram
• Trudi Lebron’s podcast - Business Remix - Should Coaching Require Certification?
• Rising Tide - Website
• Lisa Zamparo | Website | Instagram 

Subscribe!

• Subscribe on Apple Podcasts
• Subscribe on Spotify
• For more episodes, check out The Intentional Career Podcast website
   

Schedule a Call

Ready to create your Intentional Career? Schedule a call with Karen Styles, Career + Life Coach and owner of Flow + Fire Coaching.

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Transcription - Trading Traditional Accounting for Love with Kristine Miguel

Karen: I'm Karen Styles. And this is the Intentional Career Podcast. I talk to all kinds of people who take all kinds of paths to work they love. I'm a career and life coach and owner of Flow + Fire coaching. If you're ready to create your Intentional Career with the support of a coach, schedule a call with me.

There's a link in the show notes, or you can go to intentionalcareer.co and click the blue “Schedule a Call” button.

Today on the show. My guest is Kristine Miguel, owner of Carita's Company. She's a chartered professional accountant, mom, small business owner and all around financial hype woman. She offers startups, entrepreneurs, and side hustlers and approachable way to face their fear around money and combat overwhelm so they can build and grow a financially sustainable business.

Welcome, and thank you so much for being here, Kristine.

Kristine: Hello, hello!

Karen: So excited to have you here.

Kristine: I'm so pumped. Yeah. Thank you for having me.

Karen: Yeah. I wanna start with, “how it started, how it's going,” or that's the overview of what we're going to have today. So you're an accountant, a CPA. Take us back to how that started for you or what made you pursue accounting as a career path?

Kristine: Oooh.  I kind of fell into the accounting path, mostly due to my love for math. Okay. So growing up math was my favorite subject in school. I did so well in math. Like it's ridiculous when I think about it. And so I wanted a career. In math or something to do with numbers. Yeah. And I also being the oldest child of four kids, I was always like the leader, the leaders slash I was always, my parents left me to teach my siblings, whatever it is they wanted me to teach.

I was very comfortable teaching. And being bossy and I love math. And so I actually wanted to be a math teacher coming out of high school. I'm not sure if you remember that feeling where you're like, oh, okay. High school kids are. Or not the best. So I don't want to be around with people. Like I don't want to teach people like me, not me necessarily, because I was such a good kid.

I'm saying that was sarcasm obviously, but I was just like, I don't know if I want to work in a school, necessarily. So when I was applying for university, I exited out of the education portal and I was like, Ooh, people say you should get a business degree because it's so versatile.

So I went into the business degree portal instead, and I found I was like, what has something to do with math? And so it was like finance and accounting. And I was like, oh, I don't really want to do finance. Oh, let's just do accounting. So I just applied for it. I got accepted and yeah, that's where I started and how I fell into this.

Karen: That's interesting because... accounting wasn't obvious for you.

Kristine: No, I didn't even know what it was really.

Karen: Yeah. Yeah. And that kind of makes sense. Like when we're young, you're really only exposed to at least for me, I wasn't exposed to that many career paths. Like doctors and teachers and whoever's in your life, but, sometimes you don't know what's available to you. The thing about accounting is that it's pretty linear. Like when I think of linear, always talk about accountants and make broad generalizations. And, back when I was an executive recruiter,when I was recruiting accountants, I remember cause I was going through my own career angst and I remember being jealous of that linear path.

Kristine: I see.

Karen: I was like, wouldn't it be nice to be an accountant? You go work in a firm in audit and then you work your way up, maybe go to corporate and you become a manager and then a , controller and a director or VP of finance, like I was like, wouldn't that be... oh, that'd be so nice if I just do where to go. If someone just told me what the path was, and also knowing that you make a ton of money.

Kristine: Yes!

Karen: And then, but then I also knew that wasn't for me. Like maybe I could improve my math skills, but I was pretty damn sure that I couldn't be an accountant. So it's interesting. But I had this kind of longing for - wouldn't it be nice if it was so easy?

Kristine: Oh, I have so much to say about that.

Karen: Yes, please tell me what you have to say about that.

Kristine: Okay. So you mentioned a few things were linear paths are usually accountant paths and being envious of people, telling you where to go and what to do.

[05:00] I am going to say you are not incorrect about that. Everything about that statement is correct in that. All accountants, somehow we just fall into this career path and then we are told what to do what the next position is what the pay is for that position. And we just follow. So accountants are very good for rule followers.First of all, because obviously we have to follow all these freaking rules

Karen: Yeah, they need to be.

Kristine: I need to be able to read the rules and then apply it to my life or not my life, but my clients books or my company's books. So we are super rule followers. And I want to - we'll probably talk more about this later - but that was my downfall and that's what I hated the most about it.And so I think at first it's great because you're young, impressionable, and then you ha you don't really know okay. One, one other thing that you said was you was like, when you're growing up, nobody tells you what, here are all the career paths.

It's more like who, what careers have been in place in your family? Who do you aspire to be within your family? So you choose a career path based on if your mom was a nurse or dad was a doctor, et cetera. My parents never did that actually contrary to the usual, like Asian culture. They never told me like, you need to be a nurse or you need to be this or that, which I am so grateful for.They never told me what to be.

But then I felt like, I didn't know what to do. As a young person, and so being in an accounting career path was so comfortable. Because once you get into school, you told, they told you what to take, what, what courses to take. And then in third year you get to apply for summer jobs.

And these, the summer jobs are a set number of positions, or, it's like a set position that everybody does. So  think of an assembly line, but for human careers. Like a human  professional assembly line. And that's what accountants did. And they produce the same exact result every single time.

And thinking back, that's good for the public, obviously, because we need to be consistent. We need to be reliable. But you couldn't just do whatever the frick you wanted. And that bothered me a lot.

Karen: Interesting. So like you said, it's comfortable. I could see how it's also comforting where, like I know what's in the next step.I know what there's a structure, there's a path. You can just keep doing the next thing. You don't have to like, worry about it.

Kristine: Exactly.

Karen: But then, there comes in your life where you're like, wait a second...

Kristine: 10 years in. You're like, what? Wait, what? You wake up one day. And you're like this was nice oh, so nice. I have a paycheck. I have a job to go to. I'm constantly busy. Like it's so comfortable. It's so predictable. And then you're like, but what if I want to do this other thing? And it's no, you can't do that. Cause that's not in the plan. It's like, but why?

Karen: Okay. So let's talk about that because now you're a business owner and, I think there are a lot of accountants that might open a bookkeeping firm, or they do tax services. And what you do is a bit different.

Kristine: So different.

Karen: What happened for you? You said you woke up one day and what was that moment for you or was what led to the change? Was there a moment where you were like, okay, this has got to change. I think I want to step out of this, this path  that's been given to me.

Kristine: Yes, yes. Oh my gosh. Okay. So when you're in the path, like when you're in the assembly line, You basically get given, like they dangle a carrot sticks in front of you where they're like, this is the next promotion with this price tag. And you're essentially like, you are rewarded for your efforts and for showing up in terms of positions and money, which are all prestigious, they're all like things to aspire to.

I'm not really talking negatively about those because it really does work. But one day the reward. So one day I didn't, I can't say I woke up one day. It was a lot of many days that I woke up that I was so unmotivated and I thought to myself, okay , what am I working for here? So I got all the way to you described that career path.

I got all the way to manager or financial reporting for a public construction company, which is it was such a good position leadership position. I was so good at my job. Everybody loved me, but then. All these new rules would come up for, IFRS. So IFRS is international financial reporting standards. And one day I just remember thinking I don't care about these rules and nobody else does.

Karen: And I'm the one who's supposed to care!

Kristine: Exactly. And I'm like, what? This is weird. And at that time, like usually I would. Fall back to, oh, here's a reward. It'll be fine. But the rewards never amounted to how much I hated it anymore.

[10:00] Like the diminishing returns concept where no amount of reward, no amount of like title you could give me would make me happy anymore. And I knew that, looking ahead, because we knew where we were going to be in like 10 years time, 20 years time, I looked at the lives of my leaders -  and they were great leaders by the way -  but I just, I didn't see myself in it anymore.

And so many days, the waking up being unmotivated and I was in charge of this big, huge, conversion. So a conversion to a new IFRS standard where you had to lead the company to adopt the standards by changing process, changing people's ways of doing things and doing that.

I realized nobody gives a shit about these rules. It got to a point where those rules that were being made, didn't even make sense to me anymore where it's, is this just a rule for compliance so that we can have 60 pages of documentation versus one page?

And if that's the case, you're just making us do busy work and everybody in the company hated it. And being a natural people pleaser. I hated it too. Because nobody liked what I was doing anymore. And that's when I wasn't getting any rewards out of it. So ...

Karen: In terms of emotional rewards, right? Or like, how you were feeling? Like you didn't feel proud of it or connected to it or..?

Kristine: Yeah, I didn't feel connected to it. I didn't feel proud of it. Yeah. So long story short, there's so much to unpack there, but it was like, I wasn't, I love being like the helper, the leader that people. They agreed with what I was doing and I got support. I love having support again, like I said, people pleaser, but it was just, that was the beginning when I wouldn't, nobody cared about it. I didn't care about it. So I'm like, okay time to do something else

Karen: Yeah and  it sounds like you went from following that external path and the people pleasing to really listening to yourself more.

Kristine: Exactly where it's kinda, it started with okay, I'm not pleasing people anymore and I'm not pleased myself. Like what the hell is happening?

Karen: So now what do I do? So when did you decide to start your own business?

Kristine: Yeah, so I was, so I've been doing accounting, like the traditional accounting path since 2007. And then finally in 2015, I think it was the year of change. Like I got married that year and then I also got this promotion to manager.

So in 2015, I was reading this magazine and this girl, this lady was on the cover and she was talking about paving her own career path as a CPA. And I was like, I am so jealous of this lady. And so I contacted her. Yeah, I totally fan girled. I contacted her and I asked her like, what, how the hell did you do this?

And so that was the beginning. And then, so the fall of 2015 was when I started Caritas Company as a side hustle and then went into it full-time in 2018. No 2019, because I was on mat leave. So I've been doing this full-time for, almost for two years now, actually this month was the time I went full time in 2019.

Karen: Oh, it's your business birthday!

Kristine: It is my business birthday! I just don't know what date. Like, I don't even

know...

Karen: But that gives you an excuse to go get a cake or a cupcake or something and celebrate. Woohoo!

Kristine: Oh, So true. Yeah, exactly. It's like one of those things that, because I started it a long time ago. As a side hustle I don't have a birthday because it wasn't, one day I woke up kind of thing. It was like many days of waking up being like, I want something else.

Karen: Yeah. Yeah. And unless… the only reason I know my date is I went through a business program where my business coach was like, your launch date is this. And I'm actually really glad I have that. Because otherwise. You're doing the work in the background and maybe you're taking on clients here, but you're not sure you don't fall into it, you don't plan it that way... maybe some people can do it on their own. But for me anyway,I had help.

Kristine: I have a launch date for Bookkeeping Bootcamp. So that's one of my signature programs. I know exactly when I started that. But Caritas Company in general, I think I can't even tell you a date, right?

Karen: Yeah. And what does Caritas mean? Why did you name your company Caritas?

Kristine: Okay, so Caritas is actually a Latin word for,direct translation is charity.

But when we think about charity, we think of giving to a charity or an organization that helps people do X, Y, Z. But the real meaning, the original meaning of charity is actually love, which is it's the virtue of charity in a religious standpoint. And I'm going to give you like five meetings because it's very deep.

[15:00] Charity, which has also a love, which is also translates to God's love for his people. So it's like that, that Christian Love, unconditional love that I'm going to be here for you. Love that you surrender to me. I'm going to be here for you. Love. So I love that you pulled that card because...

Karen: For our listeners, I pulled a card before we started. And it said “I surrender to a power greater than me.”

Kristine: And my entire life has been about surrendering to a greater power because, man, if it was all up to me, like the world is screwed seriously. If it was all up to just us. Yeah. The world is totally screwed. So anyway, Caritas, it just goes back to my roots. I didn't want my company as something like, oh, Kristine Miguel Consulting or something like that. Cause obviously that's it's predictable and I'm over that. And I wanted my company to grow with me. Even if I didn't want to do financial stuff anymore, I can still be Caritas Company because it is super true to my values. My number one value is love. So that's the background story.

Karen: It's so cool. Cause I think people wouldn't necessarily... I certainly wouldn't put love and accounting together. And obviously your goal is bigger and deeper than that. And you have these spiritual elements of surrender and also the elements of I'm here for you, which is yes, totally what you do in your business. And I've experienced it because I've been through Bookkeeping Bootcamp. And it's one of those things that we really need.

Cause I think for those of us who do have fear around our financial background or we're starting a business. There's always this fear of, you're so smart with numbers, I feel stupid, like you're probably going to be bored by this, or you're going to judge me or all of this stuff.

And it was really nice to have none of that. None of the fears come true. And having the support and I can see that love and the support behind your business I've experienced it. It's easy to have generalizations about what accountants are like, even though I know lots of creative, vibrant accountants, they're not the stereotype, but it's really cool to experience that.

Kristine: And I love that you pointed out fear because the opposite of love is actually fear. It's not hate. Yeah, the opposite of love is not hate it's fear because you're scared to give it a, give it your all. You're scared for people to come into your life. You're scared for money to come into your life. Right?

And so I always say fear prevents learning while love promotes learning. And so going back to my company name, my personal value is love. But I also know that small business owners, they do what they do because of love because they love what they do. They love, they want to create a life they love so they can keep doing what they love. And so when I was going through this, like naming my business exercises, I was just like, love is just the number one. That's it for everybody.

Karen: That's so cool that you were just like, I'm going to go for this. And I feel like I would have been so afraid that [the name] doesn't make sense. That it's not going to make sense to anybody. And I love that. You're just like, I'm an accountant and love is the most important thing. And that's what I'm going to name my company. But I'm sure that draws the exact right people to you.

Kristine: I hope it it has drawn the right people and I love having the conversation of like, why is your name Caritas? They thought that my name, like maybe my middle name was Caritas and, Oh there has, there have been days when I'm like, if only my business name was like something consulting, people will understand better, but I'm like, you know what, it's fine. I can talk to them about it. And. It's just going to be a help.

Everyone now is going to know that Caritas in Latin is love, right?  Some days I'm like, why did I name this company like this? And I'm like, oh yeah!

Karen: I remember.

Kristine: Cause of love. Remember, and it reminds me every day. When I'm having the worst day ever, it reminds me that I keep having to go, that I have to go back to love. That's what I have to keep going back to. And that's been true for my entire life when I'm feeling like it's not working, go back to love, go back to love. So it's a good reminder for me.

Karen: Yeah. And you can't forget.

Kristine: I cannot forget because it's everywhere. Exactly. Yeah.

Karen: You mentioned the individual that you reached out to like seeing this other mentor and realizing that there was a career that maybe you could have. What else, like what other wisdom or advice or resources helped you to go from that path that you didn't choose to your intentional career in and creating this business?

Kristine: [20:02] You know what, aside from that lady that was an accountant. I didn't have too many accountants who I aspired to be. But my clients, meaning small business owners and entrepreneurs, were my biggest inspiration. Because entrepreneurs, they're like my career crushes. Because I'm just working over here on my accounting stuff, and then I go on Instagram or I talk to a small business owner and they're just in a coffee shop. I'm looking at it from the other perspective where I'm like, it's so nice that they can just go to a coffee shop, do their work. And then go home whenever they want, do whatever they want at whatever time they want.

And I'm like such a night owl that  I work at night and I can see that small business owners work at night all the time back then. I didn't understand why they worked at night all the time. Now I do because we have endless work. They were my inspiration to just be like, Hey, look, this person,  her background was whatever it was. And now she is making like greeting cards that are so amazing and ake people happy. So I aspire to be somebody who did something that people appreciated and that really truly help people to their core rather than help people be because of their compliance requirements and stuff like that, right? Like the classic accountant. So I don't know if that answers your question. But it's more I was just inspired by creative community.

Karen: And it sounds like you want it to be a part of that.

Kristine: Yes. Creatives give me life and that's because they bring out in me, what I always had all along.And I knew I always had that cause I was always growing up. I love being like the class clown. I was always the silly one. I'm never serious. And even in my traditional career path, people always saw me as that weirdo, that. I was just always happy. And they were like, why are you always happy? Like this job sucks. And I'm like, I know it does, but. Can't do anything about that. And so creatives gave me this life that I was looking for.

Karen: That's interesting. It reminds me of, I used to have an Etsy shop and I was part of markets and I had a creator life that was part of my side hustle that it didn't work out for me in the end. But one of the things was, I love that community too. Like I am a creative person, but I discovered that I didn't want to make and sell objects. Like I wanted the people, so that was part of it too. I did want to connect with the people. I loved that community and that's one of the reasons I'm really glad I did that, even though it didn't turn out to be like a traditionally successful step. But yeah, there's so many people that I love and connect with.

Kristine: Yeah. That resonates with me because people say that accountants are not creative people because we're not allowed to be obviously. But I always said that I'm creative, but I'm not artistic. And so when you mentioned making things to sell, like I can, no, I can't make shit for to save my life or to sell to people, but I have all these creative ideas that.

I want people to execute for me. Yeah. It's just I don't have design experience at all. Like I suck at design, but I'm like, Hey, wouldn't it be cool if we had this thing. And then I call my designer friends and then they just do it for me. And I'm like, oh, such genius. Good job.

Karen: Yeah. I think, being creative is a human trait. And I think, to be honest, yeah, not everybody's an artist or sometimes we think of it in terms of being able to draw or able to paint. And there are so many ways to be creative. And a lot of times that applies to problem solving, to be honest. And that's one of the things that I know, like, everyone's creative. Just because someone - usually someone in your childhood  - looking at a picture and saying that you're not good at it. And we hold onto those things, stop doing the things that we love. That's kind of an aside.

Kristine: That's a story for another day.

Karen: Yeah, for sure.

Kristine: It's like, why are we like this?

Karen: Yeah. Cause someone told you it wasn't perfect or something. Did you have any advice that you ignored - to your benefit?

Kristine: Yes. When I was in that traditional career path, I mentioned to, a few colleagues like the close ones, many times that I just wanted to be a housewife, or I didn't want to be an accountant anymore, or I didn't want to do CPA stuff. Like I didn't want to be a partner in a firm. I didn't want to be this. I didn't want to be that. And everyone - cause we were still so young back then -  and they're like, then why did you get your CPA? What a waste of time. It's like why did you go through all of that if you just wanted to be a mom? And I'm like, excuse me, I'm going to teach my kids, everything that I learned from this program, just watch.

And so I ignored the advice that you had to be a partner. That you had to follow the rest of the way in this path. Just stay for a few more years, Get another promotion and things like that. I ignored that because, those annual performance reviews, that I freaking hate so much. I don't know if you hate those reviews...

Karen: [25:44] I think there's good and bad. I think the process is usually a pain. Hopefully you can learn something good about yourself, and find some pride and identify some of your skills and stuff. But a lot of that process is painful and companies make it painful.

Kristine: It's so painful. So in those performance reviews every year, they'd be like, okay, in order to get to the next level, we think you should do X, Y, Z. I'd be like, no, not doing that. I'm like, no, even if I don't do that, I will still get to the next level, because that's the linear progression. Just give it some time and then you're going to get there.

And so I ignored some of the advice, especially in the later stages, because I feel like they were just lying to me. Not lying to me, but it just never connected with me anymore. And so that's when I started ignoring the advice that I should do X, Y, Z.

Karen: I feel like, an intentional career comes back to choice. And sometimes we have to just choose little ways for ourselves. But I kind of buck against that too, where somebody says, you're going to do this now. It's just no, I'm not. At the end of the day, you have to identify, I almost don't want to say success, because that sounds like such an external cultural word, but what work feels good to you. You get to decide that for you and you don't have to live it according to somebody else's definition for you.

From where you are now, when you think back to that person who was frustrated, who was unmotivated, who probably woke up and it was like, oh, another day of this.  What would you say to that version of yourself? What would you encourage her with? What words of wisdom would you offer her?

Kristine: Gosh, that is a loaded question. I think I would still say to her to serve, to surrender to that higher power and keep asking for where to go next, because eventually. This little lady will find her way. You know what I mean? So I, yeah, like I don't think I would change a thing. I would just tell her to keep searching. Keep going.

Karen: You had a smile on your face there.

Kristine: Yes. I was like gonna tear up, obviously [laughs]. Because  I still remember those days very vividly where I'm just like, I cried to my husband, I don't want to go to work anymore. And it's so weird because once I was at work, I would literally, no one could tell.

Like I would put on this face, like everything was okay. I'm also such a good actress that I could fool everybody really. But then when I got home, I was just like broken and...yeah. So I had a smile on my face because I think I came through to the other side, getting exactly what it was I asked for. So I asked for courage really? That's what it was

Karen: Courage.

Kristine: Courage to break through, or how do you say that? Break away from that path. I was talking to one of my Slay the Mic cohort classmates two weeks ago about this, and you need the courage to get off that path. It's not, cause it's not easy. Yeah. Because there is that path it's laid out for you, what's next, you know what price tag comes with it. And it's so hard to just say no to all of it. And so yeah, I needed that courage for sure.

Karen: Yeah, because it's known, right? Like here's the path, here's what you're gonna get. And then if I do something else, it's just a big question, mark. That's what, that was my experience too, where I'm like, okay, I think I want something else, but I don't know what the something else is.

Kristine: Exactly. Yes.

Karen: So it's tricky when you're at that point. Okay, what do I choose this void, this vacuum?

Kristine: Yeah. And we talked about being in a train or the subway or whatever. You're on it, you hop on and then it's going somewhere and you know what that destination is because obviously. It tells you where it's going and then there's so many everyone there is yeah, I'm so happy.

[30:22]I'm going to be going to this place. Are you excited? Yeah, I'm excited. Perfect. Let's all continue on this train and then you have to get off and once you get off, people are like, yo, why are you getting off? What's wrong with you. What's wrong with you? Come back here. You don't know where that, you know what, you don't know when the next train is coming.

You don't know if there's another train. But we all know this train is going to this place. So come back. So it's like, when I was talking to my classmates, it was, that's what we were envisioning. Cause he dropped out of law and he felt the same exact way where it's like, everyone's going this way and we're like, no, we're not hop off the train, please. Please be okay.

Karen: Yeah. I hope there's another train that's going to take me somewhere better.

Kristine: Yeah. Or I guess we'll have to take the stairs up back to wherever it is that to find the next train.. I dunno.

Karen: Yeah. And it is an act of courage and an act of faith.

Kristine: Yeah, exactly. Crazy!

Karen: Yeah. And also it's interesting probably to discover that, it's okay. It's so scary when you're looking at it, but, oh look, I can actually figure this out.

Kristine: Yeah. And you have it in you to figure it out. So once you do experience that void and that feeling of, Hey, I could be doing something else. Just keep asking. Keep talking to people, keep exploring and don't stop until you're like, Hey, I have arrived. In a different train and I can hop off whenever I want also, once the train is not going where I want to be.

Karen: Yeah. I, that feeling matters. I think we tell ourselves that the feeling - or at least I did - this is just a feeling and maybe I can force myself to feel different or maybe I can convince myself that the things I have are okay. But when that keeps coming up, it's also information, right? You have information about career paths, but the feeling that's telling you, I don't think so, is also important information.

Kristine: Gosh, we're so good at suppressing those feelings. We are so trained to do that.

Karen: Yeah. Yeah. 

Kristine: Especially as women actually. Right? Do you agree? Like I see men do so many amazing, crazy things. And I'm like, how did you get that courage to do that? Like, How did you think that was okay. And then I'm like, wait a minute.  I can think the same way. Whereas women were more like, hm, let me talk to my girlfriends about this.

We go call each other up and we're just like, what do you think? What do you think? What do you think? What do you think? I feel like women because we're allowed to have those feelings. Like we talked to everybody and then we don't know what to do after. Whereas a man is just, because I have no one to talk to these feelings about because I can't, I'm just going to do it.

That’s what I think is happening. And I feel like if women just, you can still do that, you can still call your girlfriends, but then still do the thing that you want to do.I feel like we're so caught up in trying to get approval from our peers that's what holds us back almost 80% of the time. What do you think?

Karen: I do think, as a coach and as a coach who hires coaches... This is where a coach can help you listen to yourself. Because yeah,  you have to talk to your girlfriends, but there's a point where, I think that's the job of a coach to go, what do you really want? And to really dig deep into who you are and what you want, and to find that plan, without going to the external plan from someone else. LIke, okay, now we're coming back to you and where is your heart leading you? And what are your emotion and all of those things telling you about what you want and where you should go?

Kristine: Exactly. Yeah. And I, a hundred percent agree with you on that because yes, that is the next step. Because that coach is there to help you discover this and you don't have like ties to that coach where, you know, you and that coach never lived your childhood together.

There's no, like baggage is what I'm saying. Whereas your girlfriends, like you have a history and then it's they know you from this. Age. And you were not like this, so they might not accept you yeah. For what you want to do next. Whereas a coach is not ever going to say oh, you can't do that.

Karen: [35:04]"But you always said you wanted to be an accountant" or ...

Kristine: It's like, there's no like dissonance happening. Like when you talk to your girlfriends, like it depends on the girlfriend. If they're supportive, amazing. But there are some who are like, but why? And that's okay. That's fine. Yeah. But if you take, you need to take the advice and the guidance of a professional who has no strings attached to your past...

Karen: To your outcome either. Like they want you to have success on your terms and they're in your corner for that reason.

Kristine: Yeah. A hundred percent.

Karen: Did you ever work with a business coach? And did that support you on your path?

Kristine: Yes. That is the first person I hired. I just knew I was in my head all the time. And I have all these issues about trusting myself. And so I need somebody to just be there to support me. And that's how I was able to launch all the things that I did. And yeah, that's actually the first person I hired.

Karen: Yeah. Makes sense. Me too.

Kristine: I'm so grateful for that.

Karen: Was it a business coach?

Kristine: Yes. Yes. So actually she's a fitness coach as well as a business coach. So she has both. She had psychology degree, et cetera. And so I was actually going to her studio for fitness. And then I just got to know her. And I just knew, like she was the one in terms of if I ever needed someone to talk to who was, a good sounding board, not biased, like it would be her. And then she also launched an online course herself. And so it was just like, I trust you. You've done everything that I want to do, so please help me. And then not only did she help me launch my Bookkeeping Bootcamp when they were still just workshops. She also just helped me with a lot of mindset.

Karen: It's funny. I was thinking about this recently. Sometimes the reason I work with a coach now is because it's easier, to be honest. I am trained as a life coach, and I know the tools, I can work myself through things, but sometimes it's just so much easier to have someone help you. To go, hey, I'm stuck here, can we talk about this? And it's such a relief to be like, okay, I'm stressing about this stuff, but I know I can talk to my coach about it.

Kristine: Yes. I was super interested in the life coach stuff too. Cause that's I have this idea of taking my business there, but I'm just not sure yet. So I'm in the asking phase, where I'm like, is the life coach thing, for me? Or do I just do whatever? And I know as a coach, you're probably like, ah, they need to regulate this business because. Everyone can just say they're a coach when they're not like, does that bother you?

Karen: A little bit.

Kristine: It would bother me too.

Karen: Okay. Trudi  LeBron has an awesome podcast on this and she talks about the idea of, should it be licensed? Yeah, like anyone can call themselves a coach and there are probably lots of great coaches who aren't certified or who didn't go through a training program. And that's okay. And there, on the other hand, there are probably coaches who aren't that great, who did go through the program. So there's that side of it. The certification doesn't necessarily make you the coach, but I think there are a few things that help, in terms of, ethics and confidentiality.

Kristine: I know you're big on that one, for sure.

Karen: Yeah. Well,  I don't leave a session with a client and go talk about it on Instagram. I'm not talking about it on my Instagram because that's confidential. And, I think people who haven't been through a coaching program don't have that beat into their heads as much.

And I really did have that beat into me. Like, what does confidentiality mean? And I think coaches who are trained know the difference between coaching and consulting and mentoring and therapy.I'm very aware, If I'm concerned that somebody needs the help of a psychologist, I'm not going to pretend that I can walk them through depression and anxiety.

Not that we can't work together, but they probably need the support of a therapist as well. And I'm making this into a bit of a tangent, but some people who call themselves coaches are trainers or they're educators, or they are cheerleaders. And maybe you need someone to cheer you on or to encourage you. But for me, what a coach does is they understand change. They understand how change works and how to help you get through that. So usually there's a transformational aspect of it.

Kristine: True, true. Yeah, you're right.

Karen: But it's not advice. It's not advice giving it's not right. And I think a lot of "coaches"

give advice.

Kristine: [40:02] Yeah. Because coaches help you through consulting gives you advice. Mentoring is the cheerleader type and guide.

Karen: A mentor is someone who is further along the path than you. They may be in the same profession, or not. You could have an accountant who is further along than you tell you how to do that. Or you could have someone who is,  I'm pretty new in business, right? I'm in my first couple of years. So someone who has been in business for 10 years as a small business owner, they could be my mentor. Could be a consultant too. They might have advice to give me. But that's not the same as coaching.  Often it's mindset blocks. So part of my work is... now I'm doing my own commercial here, which was not the plan.

Kristine: No, this is good. Cause I asked for it and then it was one of my questions.

Karen: I think it's also a part of my work is identifying, through a conversation, oh, it sounds like you have this limiting belief. And so that's a script that's playing in your head and that's holding you back.

And and usually those things are painful. And so how do we work through those to to release them? Usually it's more like jiggle them just a little bit because those things are deep set and it takes time to work through them. So that's a big part of what I do. Identifying as you're talking, oh, it sounds like you have this belief and removing those. And then also envisioning what is the change gonna look like for you, that want to make?

Kristine: I love that you explained that because I always thought of myself as more of I'm a consultant, because I have that expertise, that technical expertise. And I'm also, I'm more of a mentor really.

Karen: And an educator too. You said you wanted to be a math teacher and you are an educator.

Kristine: Yes, exactly. So that's why that question of coaching and all that stuff. That's why I was like, I don't know if I'm gonna get into that. Cause I was still, I'm still asking that question because I'm more of a, "Hey, I know the answer, do this." So I don't know if I would be a great coach because I would just want to give them the answer.

Karen: It's really, it's interesting. I could see it fitting for you. If that was what you wanted to do, I could see you doing that. And there's lots of different kinds of coaches.

And, but it's funny. Cause I fall into that too, because with my career coaching background, the career coaching stuff, it can be very consultant heavy or people want to talk to me about their resumes or they want interview training. And that is much more consulting. It's, I have some information that you don't have, so I'm going to tell you about that and I'm going to give you advice. So sometimes I have to be like, okay, am I coaching right now or am I consulting? Or I'll even say, okay, I'm taking off my coach hat for a minute. I'm putting on a consulting hat. And yes,  people are coming to me for different things, but it is also that awareness.

Kristine: Of like of what your client is going through and what they need from you too.

Karen: Yeah. And being aware of, right now, I'm giving advice and I'm being a consultant right now. Or right now I'm a coach. And when I'm a coach, my job is not to solve the problem for you or tell you what to do.

Kristine: So true.

Karen: It's funny, cause I am often looking at that line and asking myself that question too. Maybe it's the mark of a professional too, to not assume that they know everything all the time But sometimes the things we do help, right? Where you're like, do this, and that can calm somebody down.

Kristine: Oh, totally. Yeah, for sure. It's, what do I do? Okay. Do this. Problem solved. Yeah, exactly. Oh, cool. I love that.

Karen: We're about time to wrap up, but I want to know who your career crush is.

Kristine: Ooh. Oh my goodness. I, I honestly have a hard time coming up with this being in the middle of both sides of the career spectrum. Where... I think I explained this earlier about, I touched on this earlier where. I don't necessarily have like accountant career crushes because I have major crushes on the creative community. So I'm just gonna leave it at that. I know that's not going to be a straightforward answer for you because it changes a lot too.

Okay now that I'm thinking more about it, yeah. I'm going to give her a shout out because she inspired me to start Bookkeeping Bootcamp and she's a CPA. Okay. I lied. I do have an accountant career crush. Her name is Lisa Zamparo. Okay.

Karen: Oh yeah! She was at Rising Tide .

Kristine: [44:52]Yes. So that lady, oh my goodness. She came into my, I don't know, I don't even know how I found her, but. When I was questioning where I want to be, what I want to do. I stumbled upon, I probably stumbled upon her Instagram page. And I was like, oh my God, this is a CPA who is super aligned with what she wants to do.

She's also creative,  she's a mom. At that time. She wasn't a mom yet, but she was just like this vibrant human being that I'm just like, I just want to be you and build my business like you. Okay. Thank you for getting that out of me. Because she is an accountant, but also creative. Lisa Zamparo, I love you. Thank you so much. And actually I would, I messaged her and then she, we talked through a bunch of stuff and she was just so inspiring to me.

Karen: And I think that's where there's just an energy in a creative crush. Last year, I called them entrepreneur crushes. Like I'd find someone and think, oh my gosh. Look at all these beautiful things she's doing. And I think there's something about that energy and it shows you what's possible, right?

Kristine: Yes. Yes.

Karen: That's something amazing is possible. If it's possible for them, it might be possible for you too, and that's the power of having a career crush. If you're feeling uninspired, like maybe you need a career crush.

Kristine: It's so true. So true. Yeah. So I love that question now actually, because I was like, thinking about it, I'm just like, oh, I don't know who my career crashes and now we know now I know. Yeah. And actually she knew that from the beginning. I always tell her I'm like, you know what, thank you so much for doing this for me. Inspiring me to do this. Yeah.

Karen: That's so awesome. Yeah, it makes you believe it's possible. And then look at that. You can make it happen.

Kristine: Exactly. Oh, so good. And those. And she also helped celebrate things with me when I did launch Bookkeeping Bootcamp and she [said], Oh my God, you did it. Oh, So good. Feels so good. Yeah.

Karen: On that note, so people can find you at Caritas Company.com or on Instagram @caritasccompany. What do you want them to know about? Like obviously, Bookkeeping Bootcamp is for solopreneurs entrepreneurs?

Kristine: Yeah, so mostly solopreneurs and startups. So it's like your basic beginner course for doing your own bookkeeping and accounting. So if you have recently just incorporated or are planning to, or just started your business and you're like, what the hell am I doing? Or if you're a seasoned entrepreneur, but never got around to learning about your books and how to do these things, then Bookkeeping Bootcamp is perfect.

It's a six week online course. That is both self-paced learning as well as live meeting. So live coaching and consulting. And it's just a great community for business owners to learn about money in their business.

Karen: It was so empowering. I took it last year. I highly recommend it. Just to give you that confidence about money and to know that there are people out there who can help you like Krista. Yeah. Yes. So Christine starts all of her meetings with dancing. She's very much a hip hop person. And so all of these things where if you have all these assumptions about a couch as being boring or dry, like it's going to break apart, totally leave them at the door. We're going to start with a dance party here.

Kristine: We're going to have a dance party. And I always, that's why I call myself a hype woman, a financial hype woman, because it's let's just be excited about our finances and what's possible because that's really what people need. Sometimes it's just you know, we get so down on ourselves about, oh, I suck at money. I'm so bad with money. I don't know anything. I think you mentioned that in the beginning. It's I don't know. It's too hard. And I'm here to hype you all up through that. Yeah.

Karen: Which, yeah, man, when we're, when you're a small business owner, you need that.

Kristine: Yeah. Yeah. You need that. Exactly. Yeah. That's where you can find me. I am not running Bookkeeping Bootcamp until the fall of 2021 though.

Karen: So get on the waitlist.

Kristine: Yeah, get on the waitlist is the first step. And then if you need immediate help, I have other , other programs available for you. Just check it out on my website.

Karen: Great. Thank you so much for being here.It's been lovely to talk to you and hear about your story, the, how it started, how it's going. And I think the thing about intentional careers too, is when I talk to people about their path, we know also that. We're still on the path, right? I'm not assuming that you're at the pinnacle. I know that you're at a place that's much better than it was when you. Didn't want to get out of bed in the morning, but it's interesting to hear you like, what's next for me? Is it coaching?

Kristine: Yeah, exactly. It's I don't know if there's ever a pinnacle. Is there a pinnacle, I dunno.

Karen: I don't think that's the point.

Kristine: I feel like there isn't no, there's no point. There's no point. Just stop now. [laughs]

Karen: It's I don't know. For me, it's about continually creating the life you want. And a career's a big part of that right?

Kristine: [50:03]Yes. A hundred percent.

Karen: Okay. Thank you so much for being here. I so appreciate it.

Kristine: Thank you so much for having me.

Karen: [Outro Music] Thank you so much for listening. That means so much that you chose to spend part of your day with me. If you enjoyed this episode, go to apple podcasts and leave a five. Star review. It helps other people find the podcast. And my hope is that if more people find the intentional career podcast, then more people can create their own intentional careers.

If you're ready to create your intentional career with the support of a coach, schedule a call with me. There's a link in the show notes, or you can go to intentionalcareer.co and click the blue “Schedule a Call” button in the top right corner. Episodes of the podcast are released every second Wednesday. So I'll see you in two weeks for more of the Intentional Career podcast.