The Gravel Ride. A cycling podcast – Détails, épisodes et analyse

In this episode, Craig Dalton and Justin Bowes reflect on the lead-up to the Unbound Gravel 200 race, sharing insights into the unique training approach adopted to prepare for the challenging event. They discuss the strategic training block, the importance of quality over quantity, utilizing power meters for training effectiveness, and the significance of recovery in a compressed time frame. The conversation dives into the pivotal four-day mini camp, highlighting the benefits of stacking workload and the nuances of balancing intervals and endurance rides. 

Support the Podcast

Join The Ridership 

Key themes include strategically structuring training around time constraints, leveraging prior endurance experience, the impact of power meter training, optimizing recovery for peak performance, and the mental challenges faced leading up to a formidable gravel race like Unbound.

• Strategic training plans can be tailored effectively to accommodate time constraints and previous endurance experience.

• Balancing interval workouts with endurance rides is crucial for building strength and endurance for challenging events.

• Utilizing power meters can provide valuable insights into training progress and help optimize performance.

• Adequate recovery periods are essential for the body to absorb training load effectively, leading to improved performance.

• Mental preparation and breaking down the race into manageable segments can help athletes.

Transcript:

[00:00:00] - (): Craig Dalton: Justin, welcome back to the show,

[00:00:02] - (): Justin Bowes: Craig. Thank you for having me. It's good to see you again.

[00:00:05] - (): Craig Dalton: Post Unbound. We did it.

[00:00:07] - (): Justin Bowes: That's right. You did it. Yeah, you did it a big way.

[00:00:12] - (): Craig Dalton: I appreciate you coming on board and being my muse to help me tell my story. I feel like you were an integral part of my life for a while this year.

**** - (): In our last episode, we talked about kind of what the run up to my non cycling related vacation looked like. And maybe we pick up the story post that vacation.

[00:00:33] - (): Justin Bowes: Sure. Yeah, it was, we discussed on the, on the first pod that, we, we were having a little bit uncharacteristic buildup, um, not only because you had some, prior work, obligations with, as far as travel, but we were starting quite late, um, as well.

**** - (): So we had to, be a little creative in how we wanted to, to approach your training. So, right when you were, uh, leaving, we had really built up your training load, um, because obviously we knew that you were going to be leaving and you're gonna have time off the bike. You weren't gonna be.

**** - (): Completely immobile. I mean, you were, we're going to be able to, do some running and walking and some lifting and, and, um, a few stationary bike sessions in there and things like that, but it's not the most ideal unbound training, especially when you're training for the 200 and. We're only a couple months into it or, a couple of months out from it, I should say.

**** - (): And so, uh, the thought behind, how I wanted to structure your training was to take advantage of the, the, the amount of time that you did not have to train. And so where a traditional buildup would have multiple big ride days on the weekends, um, not only that, but then also, during the week, You would have your meat and potato interval session, but also bookend it with some big endurance rides on the front and the back end of it, but you just didn't have that available to you.

**** - (): So, um, I needed to make sure that we were going to take advantage of not only the lack of time that you had available to you, but also you're, you're no stranger to endurance, um, athletics. So you had a background that I could work with. And that makes all the difference. If you were just coming to me off the street and say, Hey, can you get me ready?

**** - (): And less than four months, for a 200 mile gravel race, the hardest 200 mile gravel race in the world. It would, that would be a different story, but thankfully you, you had some background in endurance, so it wasn't. A foreign concept to your body.

[00:02:48] - (): Craig Dalton: It was interesting in my training block leading up to Cuba because we really didn't do a lot of meaningfully long rides, but I also understood like, I'd never really done meaningful intervals before.

**** - (): And clearly like the workouts you were prescribing to me that were one hour in duration. Pretty tired afterwards. Like I felt like I really gassed myself because now that we're looking at a power meter and we're really saying it's not like perceived level of exertion. It's like, here's the exertion you need to achieve.

**** - (): Um, and it was really, I mean, frankly, it was like, I was burying myself on a lot of those workouts, which was very different than anything I'd been done doing in the, the decade before, to be honest.

[00:03:32] - (): Justin Bowes: Right. Right. And I mean, it's, it's the old adage, quality over quantity. And again, I, I keep coming back to, the time crunch.

**** - (): I mean, that's what we were up against. And so I really wanted to make sure that, the lead up to your trip to Cuba, but then also once you get back, we added enough low to you. to your training so that, um, the break was needed. And so your body would be able to absorb all of that load while you're gone because, yes, you would still be active, but you weren't training.

**** - (): And so it allowed your body to recover from all that. And by the way, Um, Craig did an amazing job, um, of hitting all of his workouts. Like, I want to say there's less than a handful that were just kind of like, didn't nail them perfectly, but it wasn't for the lack of trying by any means. Um, and so, um, with that, and you brought up the point too, it's just like, you've never trained with power before, and so there was just, that was just another element to the training that we had to kind Yeah. implement. It wasn't like, Oh yeah, I've been training for years with power. So I know what my zones are and why and all of that. So kind of helping coach you through, the use of the power meters and, and the importance of that.

**** - (): I think it gave us a really good detailed picture of where the training was going and you could see. Yeah. and ultimately feel, yourself getting stronger, after each week, things just got better and better and better. So once you got back into the country, then it was time to start, we'll continue on the interval workouts, but we're going to start introducing, the longer sessions as well.

[00:05:21] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, yeah. And I remember like I definitely felt tired when I left for that week off, um, and unfortunately not incredibly refreshed after my quote unquote vacation, because there's a lot of running around with the family, but coming back and looking at the training calendar, we had a couple of things up in the air, but we knew like that next six weeks was going to be a big build of long rides, endurance rides, and continuing on some of the interval work.

[00:05:47] - (): Justin Bowes: Right, right. And so, had, had things been different as far as scheduling of the trip and things like that, we may have flipped the script a little bit and did all of your big rides be, on the front end, and then do all the more structured training, the higher, shorter, sharper stuff on the back end.

**** - (): But I just felt like with your background and what we wanted to accomplish with Unbound, um, it was better for us to, to stack those. shorter, sharper workouts on the front end and then give yourself time to relax or, absorb. And then once you came back and we figured out, some pieces as far as like, Hey, when can we get out and do back to back big rides?

**** - (): And I want to talk about that too, because I think it was really important, um, in the buildup, um, for the race, um, those, those four days of just, some really good rides, but it, it, it, It was working and from my standpoint, I could see, the fatigue building, but your recovery was also taking, it was, it was working as well, and so it was like, we'd stack the work on you.

**** - (): But then the recovery days were structured so that, those. again, your body absorbs that work. And the cool thing with watching you is he can, you, Craig, he can handle a lot of work, so I'd be looking at your workouts, every day. And I'm like, he's, he's doing this, like he's actually absorbing all this workload.

**** - (): And that's where it was really starting to fuel my confidence. And what you were going to be able to, um, accomplish at Unbound was, not only is he nailing all these workouts, but he's also recovering on the backside of it too. And that was just, again, it was fueling my confidence for you to egg you on to say, Craig, you can do this.

**** - (): Like we're in a really good position. And I didn't want to get down into all the weeds with you as far as like what I was seeing, right? Right. Because ultimately it's just like, I just want Craig, you to understand you can do this. So it was really cool from my standpoint to see.

[00:08:03] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's interesting. As you talk about, like, if, if we had given more time that you might've done the longer rides earlier and then that kind of high performance stuff later, right.

**** - (): I kind of feel like I might've struggled with confidence With that approach, even though like, obviously I would've had massive workouts six weeks back.

[00:08:24] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, yeah. . But I

[00:08:25] - (): Craig Dalton: kind of, I kind of like the, the idea that we were progressively testing me Yes. On these harder and harder weekends towards the end.

**** - (): Right?

[00:08:34] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. And I, and definitely by design , but at the same time it, it, it worked out, I think, better than I even. had hoped for because, again, in theory and on paper, I'm looking at what I want you to do, but ultimately it's what can your body and, now that we're getting deeper into it, what can your mind and your body do?

**** - (): Handle. And so that's where, that's where, the coaching science and the coaching art kind of, blur the lines together of like, okay, this is what I expect him to be able to do, but this is what I'm seeing him, doing. And it's just, it's a really cool kind of blend of, the science and the art coming together.

**** - (): And again, it just stokes my confidence. And hopefully that comes across in my communication with you is like, I'm really excited. I can see this happening. And this is why I believe that you're going to be able to, perform this, um, crazy, crazy event. So

[00:09:39] - (): Craig Dalton: yeah, I think what was good for both of us was knowing that, and I'd said to you early on, knowing that I kind of put myself and you behind the eight ball starting late.

**** - (): Yes. But that, I had this, I could make a four day. Kind of mini camp whenever we needed it in May as like this option to really kind of do some big volume.

[00:10:01] - (): Justin Bowes: Right, right. And that was, that kind of gave me, that was kind of one of those moments of like, okay, good, at least. We, we, we've got it to where, it's in our back pocket.

**** - (): I've got that card to play. Um, it's going to lend itself really well. And, fortunately it was, you were really flexible on, when that could actually happen. And that, that definitely makes a, a big impact because, within the month of an event like, the 200.

**** - (): Like, we can't miss days. We can't, there's like no makeup days or anything. And each day is just that much more important for the next and the next and the next, and. Um, yeah, having you be able to go out and just knock out these four days of, big rides and, when we were talking about how we were going to do that, when a lot of, I don't want to say a lot, when, when most people have that kind of that opening of like, Hey, I'm going to do a, a mini camp, whether it's a long, four day weekend or in the middle of the week, however it works out, they're so excited to go and put in the big miles, they're, they've got free time.

**** - (): They've got the, the hall pass to go and just train. That's awesome. That's great. But the biggest mistake made by most people that do that is. They go out and do a seven or eight hour ride, on day one, and they're not used to that. And on day two, day three, they're just like, yeah, two hours here, three hours there, whatever.

**** - (): And if that, because they just completely blew themselves to the moon on day one and weren't ready for that. And so, so I prescribed to you that we'll just stair step ourself into the, into that block so that. We get the most bang for our buck out of that, that mini block of training. And. It worked.

**** - (): It worked well.

[00:12:03] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, I think that was definitely a critical weekend for me. I think I rode four hours kind of mixed terrain with a buddy of mine on Thursday, four, maybe five hours on Friday and then eight and a half or nine on Saturday and followed up by two or three on Sunday.

[00:12:21] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, that was, again, it was, it was a big, um, big chunk of time in the saddle.

**** - (): Um, and it was a big, um, bite on your end. I mean, to take, to, to put in that much time, but again, it just, it, it just speaks to the training that we did leading into it helped. your body absorb those big days. And once you, once you came out of that, to me, like I didn't want to, I didn't want to like pile on just like the raw, raw cheerleader, like, Oh my God, he's going to do this sort of thing.

**** - (): I, I was, I was, I internally, like on this side of the screen, I was like, hell yeah. Like this is, this is going to work. Like he, he's going to He's going to do okay at this.

[00:13:12] - (): Craig Dalton: I think I got a hell yeah. In the comments and training peaks,

[00:13:15] - (): Justin Bowes: you probably did. Yeah,

[00:13:17] - (): Craig Dalton: that's sad. I think that for me, that Saturday ride was the one that I reflected on, on game day, because it was 10, 000 feet plus of climbing in.

**** - (): Very, very challenging terrain. Like in fact, like I forgot, cause I don't go so far north as much like coming across pine mountain and up San Geronimo Ridge, things that the locals around here might understand, like it was just super rocky and this was like six, seven hours into the day that I hit just these trails that I just forgot how steep they are and how rocky they are.

**** - (): So when I came home from that. And was able to get on the bike the next day. I was like, okay, like it was only 77 miles and I'm doing a 200 mile race, but I did the elevation and I can guarantee some of those miles were a lot harder to come by than what I'd experienced in Kansas.

[00:14:13] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. Um, I mean, just quickly for the listeners, just kind of given, give them some numbers behind the, uh, that particular ride.

**** - (): I'll, I'll preface this by saying, even the professionals in the 200, they're not going to be able to go out and mimic. an exact 200 mile, day. And so it's just, it's just, that's a big day for anybody. And so if you can get in, for you, we're, we're targeting, like, we had the kind of the, um, beat the sun, uh, goal.

**** - (): Hey, I'd like to get in, under 15 hours, just a couple, just high level. This is kind of what I want to do. So when you were able to clock in at over eight and a half hours in the saddle with, over 10, 000 feet of climbing. And coming in with a TSS of over 400 in under 80 miles, that's a big day.

**** - (): And you're right. It's it's it, of course it's not, a hundred miles or even 125 miles or anything like that. Like, most people will, who do the 200 who have serious training behind them. They're going to be pushing that 150 mile, training day on one of, on their last big.

**** - (): Uh, training block, but you being able to get out there and produce the power that you did, the load that you were able to accumulate and the efficiency. I should note, the efficiency factor that you were able to, um, uh, complete this ride in again, it was just like, it's just pure gold in the bank, like, not even cash, like gold, like, it's solid, it's, it's, it's tangible, like, he's going to be able to reflect on this ride when things maybe get a little dark in Kansas and be able to say, I, Look what I did.

**** - (): Like, I can do that. And so when you have a ride like that, Craig, it's, it's, it's really good. Um, and it's, it's hard to quantify from a coaching perspective to an athlete until they actually do it of like what that truly means, um, to the end goal.

**** - (): Yeah, yeah, I think it's so important

[00:16:24] - (): Craig Dalton: to have those just tough tough days to reflect back on and put in the bank and I feel like when I, when I got to Kansas, I had sort of maybe a 90 percent confidence interval on my ability to complete the event. I knew, as you said before, I knew that I had Done everything that was asked of me pretty put a pretty solid effort in, but there was always that little bit in my mind saying, like, I've never ridden in Kansas.

**** - (): I don't know what the terrain's like, and I've certainly never ridden more than 130 miles. Right?

[00:17:00] - (): Justin Bowes: Right. And that brings up an interesting, question that I don't know. I've, I don't think I've posed to you since to to unbound, but like, mentally. That week leading into it, where was your head at? Like you, you've touched on like, Hey, I've never ridden in Kansas.

**** - (): I've never ridden the 200 miles, kind of speak to, mentally where, where you were at leading into the race that like that week of.

[00:17:27] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. I think it was a little bit all over the place. Like I started seeing footage of the actual terrain and I started actually, let me step back for a second.

**** - (): They talked about the North course being chunky. And when I think about chunky, I think about where I ride at home, but I realized in retrospect, it's chunky at home, but 15 percent grades

[00:17:50] - (): Justin Bowes: and

[00:17:50] - (): Craig Dalton: Kansas chunky is chunky, but 6 percent grade, so it felt a lot different. Um, so that's a point on the chunkiness.

**** - (): And then second, I started to see some of the more, um, minimum a maintenance roads and they had these great dual tracks that. We're pretty hard pack. Yeah. And I was, I was definitely conscious that conditions could change and good God, if you were in the Facebook group, the, the amount of meteorologists that came out of the woodwork was pretty insane that week leading in, but there's definitely some rain on the calendar.

**** - (): Right. Yeah.

[00:18:23] - (): Justin Bowes: No, I just felt like I may have oversold, um, the northbound course as being as chunky and technical, um, but I think, I'd rather you go in. With a higher level of like, Oh, okay.

**** - (): This could be pretty rough. Um, as opposed to, Oh yeah, the North course is fine. Yeah, it gets chunky in sections, overall it's fine. But then you get there and you're like, Whoa, I was, you did not warn me about this. You did not, my expectation was down here. And now it's like, what is happening?

**** - (): I

[00:18:55] - (): Craig Dalton: think what it left you with, Justin was just an awareness of. This could go wrong for my equipment if I'm not careful. And I'll get into a little bit once we start talking about the ride itself, like how I rode the race.

[00:19:10] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. Um,

[00:19:11] - (): Craig Dalton: but once I got to, I, I got out to Kansas on Wednesday night, got to Emporia on Thursday, did my first group shakeout ride for 15 miles on Thursday, actually in the rain.

**** - (): Um, Start, it was nice to just get the bike on the dirt out there and start to get a sense for it. You start to understand, in any grid shaped race or race course, the 90 degree corners are what you have to be aware of because Right, while you may have good dual tracks when you're coming around a corner, it, it can be very much marbley, kind of gravel in the middle.

**** - (): So it was good to sort of just. Test the cornering a little bit, so to speak.

[00:19:53] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, it's, yeah, a lot of gravel races. You just have that natural, flow of the course and, and everything, but yeah, out in Emporia, it truly is. a hard right, a hard left, and, and, if you get out of that line, um, or, you, you find yourself, drifting out of that corner or out of the race line and into the, the, the sides of the course.

**** - (): Yeah. It can get, it can get pretty chunky and it's, and not only that or loose too, but not only that is just the amount of. Shrapnel being thrown up at you, with that, that many cyclists, on a course, um, yeah, it's, it's tough.

[00:20:40] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, exactly. So then Friday I hooked up with the, my, my crew in the house.

**** - (): I was staying with shout out to Doug Bucko and Phil. Uh, we did a little ride in the town we were staying in and then I went into the, um, the meat, mandatory media event. Yeah. That lifetime was holding, and it was interesting because I did glean some perspective there as well, because they talked about how they felt like the first 28 miles of this race was going to be incredibly fast and actually that turned out to be a useful tidbit.

**** - (): Um, After the race started, so we can talk about that in a little bit, but I sort of, I did a little ride on Friday, felt good. The equipment felt dialed in retrospect. I sort of had tire size envy a little bit because it was weird because I normally ride like a 47 at home. And, um, we talked about this early on.

**** - (): You're a big fan of the IRC Boken and the biggest they come in is a 42. And I was like, well, I'm riding my titanium unicorn. I've got a front suspension fork. Like I don't need all that volume. And it, it seemed interesting to me to kind of go to something a little bit faster rolling potentially. But the big tire guy in me, when all the pros were talking about running 50 started to get a little bit jealous.

[00:21:55] - (): Justin Bowes: Right. Yeah, it's, it's, it's so personal. Like, um, yeah, I can give you my recommendations and, what I've seen work, for myself and other athletes and competitors and things like that, but it's, it's, yeah, it really comes down to your comfort level of, You know what you, what you, what you can ride and what feels good underneath you and, and things like that.

**** - (): And I, yeah, I'm, I'm all about my IRC tires, but at the same time, yeah, I couldn't help but be a little like,

[00:22:28] - (): Craig Dalton: Hmm,

[00:22:28] - (): Justin Bowes: 50 would be pretty nice, and I did

[00:22:30] - (): Craig Dalton: talk to the IRC guys and they said, Hey, the guys are from Japan are here. Yeah. And I'm making them listen to all these pros who are talking about fifties.

[00:22:39] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah.

[00:22:42] - (): Craig Dalton: So I feel like, like Thursday, Friday was all going swimmingly. And then through like being part of a larger group, my dinner on Friday night, we didn't end up sitting down to like maybe seven 30 or eight. Yeah, which is later than we had all intended by a few hours, right? I had been drinking a bunch of electrolyte stuff that I had picked up in the the expo area and For whatever reason and I don't really think I wasn't really in my head about the race because I was very kind of just at peace with Where I was at and what was going to unfold was going to unfold Friday night.

**** - (): I had a horrible night's sleep. I had a headache. I just kind of couldn't go down, which definitely rattled me, getting up at 4 30 AM to start eating on Saturday morning.

[00:23:30] - (): Justin Bowes: Right, right. Yeah. It's, it's tough. Um, yeah, it's, especially when you're with a group of people at a big race like that and, Emporia, I mean, they do an amazing job trying to absorb.

**** - (): Influx of what, uh, 12, 000 plus people with support staff and racers. And, but yeah, with dining options being as limited as they are, um, and then trying to, get a group to dinner or prepare dinner, whatever that case may be. Yeah. It's, it's, it's tough. And. I'm, I'm of the belief, I've always had this, in the school of thought of, it's not the night before, it's two nights before, um, as far as like your most important rest, um, and, recovery time and things like that, because even if, Craig, even if everything went perfect on Friday night, The enormity of what you're about to do on Saturday morning will keep you from having a restful night's sleep, it's just, yeah, maybe, maybe you fell asleep a little bit quicker, but, just knowing that, oh, my gosh, I got to get up at 430.

**** - (): I've got to have, double check this triple check that. I've got to start eating like immediately. I got to, make sure, everything's functioning. And so it's even with the best laid plans, it's always going to be, um, um, a rough night. So, but, again, objectively looking at it.

**** - (): And I think I shared with you on our call the other day was, if somebody just tossed this file in front of me. Um, and just said, Hey, tell me what you think, without any context or knowing who it was or anything like that. It's like, this guy had a great race and it was indicative of, um, again, I think just your confidence of, being prepared and knowing it is what it is at this point and yeah, you, strapped in and got to work.

**** - (): So.

[00:25:31] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, yeah, I think, I mean, I felt great about my equipment going in. I spent way more time thinking about hydration and nutrition than I ever had before, and I was, I was really jazzed with the way the First Endurance EPO Pro High Carb Drink worked for me. So to give some perspective, I used two 12 ounce bottles of the high carb drink, and then I had a use way backpack with water in it.

**** - (): And my plan was at every opportunity to refill those bottles. I would refill with the. The first endurance high carb mix that kind of annoyed maybe my, my compatriots a little bit. Cause I was like, Oh, I got to dump this powder in. And by the way, for any product designers out there, I need a product that will encapsulate a serving of first endurance.

**** - (): That's better than a plastic bag and faster to pour into

[00:26:24] - (): Justin Bowes: a bottle.

**** - (): So you felt like

**** - (): the,

**** - (): the first endurance high carb. That was. That was good for you.

[00:26:31] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. So I was using that, uh, trying to goal was to drink a bottle an hour and do Right. A goo or something in addition to it. So Right. Aiming around, I think 85 to 90 carbs an hour. Mm-Hmm. . And I had, I had trained on that on every one of my long rides.

**** - (): Exactly.

[00:26:48] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. And some people will say, well that's on the low side now, but, um, and, and it. It is, but at the same time, if that's what you're training with and that's what your body's used to, and again, being able to get through all the training sessions the way you did, why, why change that, and, and try to like go all pro and be like, I'm getting 120, 130 grams, of carbs per hour.

**** - (): And then all of a sudden, you're two hours in and your body's like, I. Don't know what this means, and just let's just shut down on you. Um, you were, you were talking about, um, you touched on it really quick on, um, your bike and everything. Talk a little bit more about like the equipment that you did, end up using, for the race.

[00:27:33] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. So I was using, it's basically my standard setup at home with the exception of, I was running 700 by 42 tires as IRC Bokens. Uh, as we mentioned before, I did have the RockShox suspension fork on there as well as a dropper post. I considered taking the dropper post off, um, because I didn't think it was going to be warranted, but I'm glad I did not.

**** - (): I'm glad I left it on.

[00:27:58] - (): Justin Bowes: Interesting.

[00:27:58] - (): Craig Dalton: Okay. Part of that rationale was nothing new on game day philosophy. Um, but I, I can go on and on and on about dropper posts and in the context of unbound. It certainly enabled a heightened level of comfort during any of the technical sections. So little Egypt and right.

**** - (): Call reservation. And then oddly, like on the more, on the longer kind of just gentler downhills, it just allowed me to really get in sort of a chilled out yet arrow position.

[00:28:33] - (): Justin Bowes: Okay.

[00:28:34] - (): Craig Dalton: So it, it, it turned out really well. And. Obviously there's like a slight weight penalty, uh, with it, but it just provides me so much comfort when I go downhill and so much confidence that, I was like, I'm just going to leave it on.

**** - (): And I'm totally glad I did.

[00:28:51] - (): Justin Bowes: Nice. No, I, I don't think we talk much about droppers when it comes to, to unbound. I don't think that's like any, in any of the, like the hot topics it's, it's, it's all tires and and now that they've banned, arrow bars, from the pros and stuff. I mean, it's just like all the focuses, your, your number.

**** - (): Uh, holder now, so you can keep it flat and arrow and all of that. Um, and then your tires and, and wheel choice. Um, but yeah, dropper, like I think it makes a lot of sense, especially, just from a positioning standpoint. of just giving you your body a different position for that long of a period, because if you think about how being in a static cycling position for, 13, 14, 15 hours, being able to mix it up and know that you can, like you said, just have a little confidence boost and just like a different position for those descents.

**** - (): Taking some pressure off your lower back, off your hamstrings, the glutes, all of that. I mean, the little things like that really do add up, especially over that course of, that type of distance.

[00:30:01] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I do feel like at this moment I should, I should make one admission to my, my training progress.

**** - (): I will say like the one area, Justin, where I felt like I failed down and fell down when fortunately it didn't bite me in the ass is while I did do a ton of foam rolling, I wasn't as committed as I should have been to my foundation back exercises. Truth comes

[00:30:27] - (): Justin Bowes: out. Um, it's funny because I, like I doubled down on my foundation, uh, back exercises, the, the month leading into unbound, um, I've, I've always had a really strong back, um, partly from, swim background and everything.

**** - (): But, um, as we've gotten older, um, things are just a little bit, they make themselves a little bit more aware and a day like, unbound granted, I did the hundred, not the 200. Um, it's still, It adds up. And so I was just like, I'm doubling down on my, my foundation work. So instead of, a minimum of twice a week, I was doing it four plus times a week.

**** - (): And, um, I, I, I definitely felt a difference. Um, Just finishing and standing in the finish corral with everybody. And it was like, wow, I can actually like stand straight up, normally, normally you have that pre or post race kind of like slouch and slump and you're like, and have to like come back up to, um, vertical, uh, slowly.

**** - (): Um, but yeah, big time. So interesting that you mentioned that. Um,

[00:31:42] - (): Craig Dalton: So yeah, a hundred percent. It was not a recommendation to not do those things to anybody listening to what

[00:31:46] - (): Justin Bowes: Craig did on.

[00:31:47] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, exactly. So talking about race day, I mean, so, we got, it was surprised, like it was very hassle free to kind of get to the start line.

**** - (): Yeah. Probably got there maybe a few minutes later than probably could have gotten further up in the Peloton if you, if you will.

[00:32:03] - (): Justin Bowes: Okay.

[00:32:04] - (): Craig Dalton: If I got there a few minutes early, but we were there maybe 20 minutes early and we got right to the basically to the 14 hour flag, which is where we decided we were going to start.

**** - (): Cause it was important to me. I know from, from past experience, it's important for me to kind of get swept up and make miles when miles are easy. And so I was pretty adamant with the career that I was with that, like, for me, this was like an imperative. Like I, I definitely wanted to start there and ride in a big pack for a while.

[00:32:35] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. And, we, we, we did touch on this, um, a little bit that, while you, you definitely need to be with your people, and be with those people that are going to, you. get you through those first, couple hours. Um, but be cautious of not getting swept up in the moment, of, of what Unbound is.

**** - (): And for, for anybody who's never been to Emporia on race day, um, I mean, it's a, it's a big deal and you, it's very easy to get caught up, even the days leading into the race of, Oh, we can go do another shakeout, right. Or let's spend five hours at the expo on our feet, because we're having so much fun and we're talking with everybody and things like that with, without much thought of like, Oh, by the way, the biggest race of your life is, two days away and you need to like, Chill and relax, but, um, I, I totally agree.

**** - (): Like, you, when. You have to take advantage of those easy miles. Um, with, with, with the caveat that, Hey, I don't want to get swept up and do too much too soon. But I also want to, as you say, make, make hay while the sun is shining. Right. Um, and, and put it away. So when things start to turn south a little bit, no pun intended, um, it's.

**** - (): It's you're further up and you're further along and you're feeling better than, had you been too conservative and held back.

[00:34:07] - (): Craig Dalton: And maybe, I mean, maybe because we couldn't get farther up, it was actually kind of a, the pace felt very pedestrian. The first 28 miles to me, like, I never, I never had to really, put in any meaningful effort to cruise.

**** - (): And I, I was watching some videos this last weekend about it. And a guy who had done it in 12 hours. And I saw the difference of what the 12 hour pace looked like in the 14 hour. And I was like, maybe if I'm like totally nitpicking my day out there, maybe I should have been up a little bit further, but there's something to be said for like, I definitely had a chill first 28 miles.

**** - (): And then. We hit, we hit the first technical section and it was interesting. I was definitely conscious of my equipment because I had weirdly, like I'd seen flats like barely out of town.

[00:34:59] - (): Justin Bowes: I was like,

[00:35:00] - (): Craig Dalton: God, I don't, I don't want to have a flat, there, people are flatting all over the place.

**** - (): We would hit these, the, uh, the technical descents and you'd sort of, You have to ride in one of the dual tracks. We're kind of the safest way there. And there was a little rocky kind of drop offs. Nothing too technical if you had a clean look at it, but as you were riding in a group, sometimes you're inevitably forced into a line that you wouldn't have opted into.

**** - (): I think that's where you risk, flatting or crashing.

[00:35:28] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. And I think that's where most people get in to the big trouble is, they try to, they try to switch those lanes. When they really shouldn't. Um, and that's, a couple of things, a lot of those dual track MMRs, we'll have like a, a big grass section down the center of it.

**** - (): Yeah. And the grass looks inviting, but it hides a lot of stuff in there, whether it's, a rut or a. Bigger, nastier rock that's been kicked out of the track into, it's just laying there. And so that's where I think people really make the mistake of like, Oh, this line's going faster on the left.

**** - (): So I'm going to hop from the right side to the left side or vice versa. And that's where the cuts happen. And the, even crashes just because they hit something that they weren't expecting and things like that.

[00:36:18] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, that 100 percent started to be a necessity to do those cross lane jumps for me.

**** - (): Like, as we came out of the other side of the, the first technical section, like, you would just see one group moving up and another. Kind of fading back on a climb. And I was definitely conscious of that middle section. Like this is when it could go all wrong, you feel the need to kind of keep joining groups with forward momentum.

**** - (): And yes, I was very pleased that, um, my, my buddy Doug, Was right there with me. I had kind of no sense because I was just sort of focused on saying, with that group in the first 28 miles. And when we came through the technical section, it was great to see his enthusiastic face pull through. And I was like, this is awesome.

**** - (): Like, cause I, we hadn't written together, but once or twice. So it was great to see that. We could potentially spend a bunch of time together. So from mile 30 to mile a hundred, we were riding together and riding with groups. Um, it's interesting and unbound cause the amateurs can use arrow bars.

**** - (): So you would see these guys and girls who would kind of maybe go slower on the hills, but once you got on the downhill or a flat, they were happy to have a train of people behind them. And I was, I'm not ashamed to say I was taking advantage of that as much as possible.

[00:37:35] - (): Justin Bowes: Heck yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. Real quick, before I forget, um, I think on the first pod that we did, um, you were asking me about the climbs.

**** - (): Um, and, cause I had given you some description of like, punchy, um, death by a thousand cut because of just the, how many there were, succession and things like that now that you've done it, like what, what was your overall, um, Observation as far as like the climbing was concerned.

[00:38:07] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. I mean, everything's so short relative to what I'm used to. And I knew that was going to be the case going in, but on the plus side, you can always, you can generally always see the top of them. So you kind of knew, and you could measure your, you could gauge your efforts. When I, I think about sort of towards mile a hundred, it started, we started to get to some that required a little bit more effort.

**** - (): And actually this was, One of the, probably the darkest mental moment I had was I kind of, I lost Doug's wheel. He caught some good wheels. I was behind someone, uh, who was not moving as efficiently and we kind of separated. And I, I thought to myself, I don't feel like I want to make this effort over the top of the hill to bridge this gap.

**** - (): But I was also staring down the barrel of like the one guy I know in this race is now riding away from me. Right. Um, there's a little bit of a dark moment there, but to your question about the hills, like, I was comforted that I could always see the top. I knew they were quite short relative to what I'm used to riding, and it was really a matter of, for me, there was maybe, I think, three times.

**** - (): I ended up getting off on the last 25 percent of a climb or last 15%. Okay. Because I gauged that I could do it, but I felt like I was going to go into the red too much. And it felt prudent to just hop off real quick and walk.

[00:39:32] - (): Justin Bowes: And that was, that was pretty late on though, right?

[00:39:35] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:36] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. It wasn't like mile 30 and you're like, okay, I'm going to start saving.

**** - (): Yeah.

[00:39:41] - (): Craig Dalton: Not at

[00:39:41] - (): Justin Bowes: all. Not

[00:39:42] - (): Craig Dalton: at

[00:39:42] - (): Justin Bowes: all. Yeah.

[00:39:43] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. So it was interesting. I was, I, there was a lot of mental gymnastics between mile 100 and one 48, which was the, the second checkpoint for us. Cause I had lost Doug. Um, it was starting to get hot. It was just. I talked to a few people and you probably mentioned the same thing to me.

**** - (): Like you can't think of the totality of the 200 miles you have to do. You really just need to break it down into chunks. Yep. Right. So I started really thinking about, um, our crew chief, Phil, who was a godsend out there. He had such great. Support for us at the aid station. We had an easy up. He had everything imaginable.

**** - (): I knew he had bottles on ice for me. So I jokingly referred to miles 100 to 1 48 as project Phil.

[00:40:30] - (): Justin Bowes: Okay.

[00:40:31] - (): Craig Dalton: And. Everything I did either was a positive effect towards Project Phil or a negative effect. So if I was, if I found a good wheel or I was riding well, I was like, okay, we're making progress, we're going to get to Phil.

**** - (): And if I, fell off the pace or something, I was like, this is a serious blow to Project Phil. And I, it's funny. I started sort of naming a few of the characters that I would ride behind and, There is a guy, a guy I was calling the orange crush because he had an orange jersey.

[00:40:59] - (): Justin Bowes: Okay.

[00:41:00] - (): Craig Dalton: And every, he was like one of those arrow bar guys.

**** - (): Right, right. Which was quite helpful. And then, at one point, um, at one point I got a really nice, um, Uh, I've started following a guy with a, with a beat the sun patch on his hip pack.

[00:41:16] - (): Justin Bowes: Okay.

[00:41:17] - (): Craig Dalton: And I was like, that's a good sign, actually. Like if this guy is, has clearly beat the sun in the past, this is probably a good sign.

**** - (): So, got into a rhythm that mile 110. Or 112 water stop I'd forgotten about. And that was absolutely a godsend because, um, I need it. I just needed some relief and the volunteers there and everywhere were just phenomenal. So they poured a bunch of water over my head and just kind of cooled me down and filled me up and set me on my way.

**** - (): And so I got to mile one 48 and my buddy Doug was sitting in the chair. With Phil and I was like, this is great. Like, I wasn't expecting to catch Doug again. Right. So it was, that was a nice sort of mental jump. And, he, he had run outta water, so he wasn't feeling that great, but he's like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna head, he'd been there a little bit, I don't know how long, but Phil had taken care of him, got his bike all tuned up, and um, he's like, I'm gonna head out, but I suspect you'll catch me.

**** - (): And in my head, I didn't know whether that would be the case, but yeah, I ended up heading out of town and catching up with Doug, um, which was great to just know that I had someone to ride with. And he rebounded quite well for that last, um, the last 50 miles of the race. So we were very simpatico.

[00:42:37] - (): Justin Bowes: Nice. Did, um, I didn't, I didn't ask you this, but, um, just talking about the aid stations. Did you have, did you give yourself like any treats, like something to look forward to in the aid stations or did you just keep it strictly business? I had a vision

[00:42:51] - (): Craig Dalton: of a lot of treats. I asked, I asked, uh, Phil to get me some gummy bears.

**** - (): Okay. Unfortunately, all the gummy bears melted in the sun and he, he did have everything. Like we had like sandwiches, he got a pizza from Casey's and I, I just, I felt like my nutrition was working. And so I was kind of like, besides some, um, Lay's potato chips, it's like, I'm just going to stick with the program.

**** - (): I never rolled in feeling like super hungry or anything. So I was like, I'm doing something right. So why don't I just keep doing it?

[00:43:28] - (): Justin Bowes: No, that's great. Yeah. I know, from other athletes that I've coached for the 200, they always, we'll have. I mean, yeah, the Casey's pizza is clutch. Like I think everybody knows, like if you're coming to the Midwest, um, you got to get a Casey's pizza in your aid station, um, or, a cheeseburger or, potato chips seem to be like, high on the list as well.

**** - (): Yeah. That's, that tends to, uh, be a really fit, good favorite, just because, I mean, it's like the salt you want, the starch and the carbs and all of that goes down really easy. And then usually like a Mexican Coke to, to, to wash it down with. So how were your, um, timing wise, how long did you stop?

[00:44:12] - (): Craig Dalton: Very little amount of time. I think my, my ride time was just under 13 hours, 30 and my total elapsed time was 14.

[00:44:22] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. So two, two dedicated aid stations and two water. Yeah. And I stopped

[00:44:28] - (): Craig Dalton: at both, I stopped at both aid stations. I honestly think at mile one 12 at that neutral aid station, when they were pouring water on me, that might've been longer than my checkpoint to stop

[00:44:40] - (): Justin Bowes: looking at your file.

**** - (): I think you're right. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:44:44] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. So, yeah, it was a bit crazy. Like, I just didn't, I, like, I know myself, like I know I just need to keep going. So I didn't, I sat down for a minute and, Phil was great. He was like there with lots of stuff, but I was like, let's just swap the bottles out. He put some ice down my back, he put my pack in the cooler, like, to get ice water on it.

**** - (): And, uh, after a few things, lubing up the chain, et cetera, making sure the bike was all right. Yeah. It just felt like it's time to go.

[00:45:12] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, no, that's good. I, that's, definitely, um, a word of caution to, athletes, especially new to the 200 of like, unless you're in a bad state, in a bad way, uh, you want to minimize the amount of time you hang around in the aid station, just because your legs start to.

**** - (): revolt a little bit and they don't want to cooperate, and so the, the shorter time you can, uh, the quicker you can get in and get out, um, with giving yourself enough time to resupply and not forget anything is always going to be better than just, standing around for, 10 plus minutes, John, John with everybody and things like that.

**** - (): Cause if you don't need to, man, Yeah. A hundred percent. Get back after it. So.

[00:46:01] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, at that second aid station mile one 48, I think Doug was a lot more conscious of the idea that we could beat the sun than I was. I think the last, the last 50 miles had been a little bit mentally hard on me.

**** - (): I was not in a dark place by any means, but I'd kind of was like, this is what it is. Like I gotta, I'll pedal as far as I can pedal and as fast as I can pedal and it is what it is. But. He, he had never beat the sun before. And I think he saw it as a really great opportunity. And as we had talked about as my kind of, my number one goal was to finish.

**** - (): Second goal was to finish healthy. And third goal was to beat the sun. Right. It was great to know it was out there. And the funny thing was my, my Wahoo was, it had 54 climbs as the listed number of climbs. And I believe by aid station two, by checkpoint two, we've done 52 of 54 climbs.

[00:47:00] - (): Justin Bowes: Right, right. Yeah.

[00:47:02] - (): Craig Dalton: Which is pretty, it's pretty crazy. So we've done like, close to 10, 000 feet of climbing already. And I think they maybe have listed it as 11. Anyway, negligible amount of climbing over the next 50 miles. So I was like, well, that's, that, that feels good to know that most of it's behind me. And, and, and everybody had said this, like getting to checkpoint two Was really the hardest part, right?

**** - (): And you just need to ride back to Emporia.

[00:47:25] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, exactly. I mean, there's always there's always going to be, a Joker station or, segment. Um, generally, it's like the Kohola, uh, Lake climb. Yeah. Um, and, For those who don't know, um, or didn't follow the weather or anything like that, we had pretty optimal conditions all day.

**** - (): I mean, we started, um, cloud cover, cool, nice, favorable breeze, um, all of that. And, for us in the 100, it wasn't until we really got closer to Kohola Lake, I mean, it was like. After the aid station, which, we shared, um, there in council groves, um, the, the clouds were starting to thin out and you could, you see a little bit more of a shadow underneath you and everything like that.

**** - (): Um, but it, you guys were in it a little longer, the heat, the sun and everything like that, but it still wasn't like in 2021 where it was just essentially a hairdryer. on your face, the entire day. Um, and so with the Kohola climb, that can always be a spoiler. Um, and I think I mentioned this to you on our call the other day.

**** - (): It was like a lot of people, as soon as they get over that climb, you're roughly, inside the last 25 miles basically to, to the finish and. Yeah, your climbing's essentially done too and people like, oh, this is great and just like get on the gas and in a 10 mile span They're completely shattered and on the side of the road because they just completely underestimated You know, whether it be the previous 70 miles or the previous, 180 that you just did are in your legs and Any extra efforts can really put a Put you in the box really quickly.

**** - (): And a lot of people's wheels fall off after that Cahola climb. Um, because they're like, Oh, we're done. Yeah. Yeah. But you're not done. You still got some mileage ahead of you. Yeah,

[00:49:27] - (): Craig Dalton: exactly. I think we were, we were looking over our right shoulders at the sun and looking at it kind of starting to go down and we're like, we do need to keep going pretty efficiently

[00:49:41] - (): Justin Bowes: to

[00:49:41] - (): Craig Dalton: make it.

**** - (): And, you go, you continue riding the dirt roads and then you go under the highway. And then you're at the university and you've got that final paved climb before the finish line. Yep. Um, and we're like, we've, we're like, we're going to do this. We're going to do this.

[00:49:57] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah.

[00:49:58] - (): Craig Dalton: And I think we ended up finishing like 15 minutes to spare before the sunset.

[00:50:03] - (): Justin Bowes: No, it's, it's, it's awesome. And I think, uh, to, to put it in context, um, this is the first year. That a lot of people were nervous about it because The start time had been pushed back, uh, to accommodate the new, uh, starting protocol with the, the pro men. Then 15 minutes later, the pro women, and then essentially a half an hour behind them, you all started.

**** - (): So I mean, taking away 30 minutes doesn't sound like a lot, but when you're up against the sun actually setting on you, it, it, it comes quickly. Like you said, I mean, you had 15 ish minutes to, in your pocket, um, that could have easily gone one way or the other, um, quickly. So, yeah,

[00:50:53] - (): Craig Dalton: yeah, you, you could, you could see to your point earlier about the aid stations, like you could have very easily burned 15 minutes sitting around on your ass, having a pizza,

[00:51:03] - (): Justin Bowes: totally.

**** - (): And I mean, and not 15 minutes at one, you could do, Seven here, eight there. And in, in the grand scheme of things in a 14 hour raise, what's seven minutes. Right. Well, add that up and all of a sudden you're, you're finishing in the dark.

[00:51:21] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. So a hundred percent. So, yeah, I mean, I haven't finished.

**** - (): Crossing the finish line was, was great. I mean, riding down commercial street with, um, with Doug was just fantastic. That's so cool. Have us, yeah, have us both meet our goals and the crowd were great. And we've got our names announced and, uh, Yeah. It just like, it wasn't lost on me the entirety of the experience.

**** - (): The town was wonderful. It's it's, it's obviously a grand spectacle of the gravel cycling community. Right. So I think coming down that I was, I was generally genuinely emotional, just felt very fulfilled with my day and effort to have it conclude before sunset and, come down that finishing line shoot.

**** - (): It just. It felt great.

[00:52:10] - (): Justin Bowes: Oh, I bet. I mean, I, I did share this with you, uh, the other day. Um, not only did I have you, have you, uh, competing, but I had, uh, one other in the 200 and another one in the a hundred and as a coach, even though I was racing, I still have like, you know, The best I could compare it to is, being a father of three, it's just like, it's like you're looking after your kids, right?

**** - (): You're nervous for them. Yeah. And, um, and so after I got done and cleaned up and went about the rest of my day on, on, on Saturday and everything like that, now I turn my I turned my browser to the race results to see, how everybody's faring out there and projected times and, and things like that.

**** - (): And when I, when I popped open my laptop and, and pulled up the results and you were still on a course, obviously, but, uh, just seeing your splits come in and everything, I was just like. Damn right, like, look at this guy go, like, he's, he's actually doing this and, um, we can talk about it all the time, as coaches of like, I know that I was giving you the proper training, and you were executing the training and things like that.

**** - (): But you never, I mean, there's so many variables that can show up on race day and, Mechanically, uh, correct me if I'm wrong, you had a clean race mechanically, right? Yeah,

[00:53:30] - (): Craig Dalton: totally clean. Yeah.

[00:53:31] - (): Justin Bowes: And for that to happen just by itself is amazing. And then on top of that, you hit your nutrition and hydration and everything just, it worked, and so, um, with, with a race like unbound, You know that something's going to go wrong, somewhere, some way, something's going to happen. And it's, it's, it's such a rarity to have a clean run, especially on your first time, not knowing what to expect and, and all of that. Um, but for you to be so successful with that, um, And it was just, yeah, as your coach and now as your friend, um, I'm just super excited for you.

**** - (): I was just, I was over the moon, um, excited to see your finishing time and, and, uh, to, to just hear, hear it in your voice and, and at first it was, it was just in text messages back and forth, but just, getting the tone of like, Your satisfaction with everything was just, it's, it's huge. And yeah, it was awesome to, to be a small part of that.

[00:54:37] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, no, it means a lot. It's been, it's been a great journey working together. It's been very fun. I, I haven't had proper coaching in ages. Um, and I recommend it. I recommend you, I recommend fast cat. It was just, it was enjoyable to just Go through a process, see improvement, uh, along the way, build confidence to do something that I'd never done before.

**** - (): And frankly, that I was, a bit scared of this whole journey started because I wanted to do something that scared me. Um, and, and to come out the other side of it, just, I'm very grateful for the entire experience, the last six months

[00:55:18] - (): Justin Bowes: Oh man, Craig, it's, it, again, it's been a privilege and Just exciting to, to, to see how you developed and just your professionalism with, with regards to your training and, accepting some new guy that you've never met before, be like in charge of this craziness.

**** - (): Um, and, um, yeah, it just, you, you didn't flinch. Um, I, I appreciate you being cautiously. Questioning about hate, why are we doing it this way? Why, where are we going? Um, why would you have me do this instead of that? Um, I mean that, it wasn't like I ever thought, Oh, he's questioning my ability or anything like that.

**** - (): He just generally wants to know why we're doing the training that we're doing. And, um, and I appreciate that. Like I love, when, when, when my athletes are like engaged. To the point that they want to know, I mean, it's, it's nice to when you just blindly follow the plan, but, when, when you're so engaged and you're so invested in the outcome of this goal that you've set for yourself and you're like, Hey, I just want to know what's going on and.

**** - (): It, it just, it tells me again, it's just another little, box to check, with, with my coaching hat on of like this, this athlete is he, he's invested, like he cares and he wants to do what needs to be done to, to, to succeed at this goal. And that makes a big difference on my end, um, because then I know, yeah, these are going to be hard workouts and they're going to put them in the box a couple times.

**** - (): But because he wants it and he's, he's, he's wanting to follow the plan, um, and be consistent with it, he's going to do really well. And, um, yeah, it showed. So, um, one, one final question. If I can, um, and I, I touched on it on our call the other day is like on a scale one to 10, how would you rate this overall experience from training to the event to your, your overall experience with, with Unbound here?

[00:57:34] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, I said it last week and I think I'll stick to it. It's a 10 out of 10 for me. Okay. And. Yeah, the only, I hesitated a second there, Justin, because I might've knocked it down to a 9. 5 because I, again, like I watched someone else's video and I was like, Maybe I could have pushed a little harder early on, but it's in the grand scheme of things, neither here nor there.

**** - (): Like, I think again, like the, I learned a lot along the way. It was fascinating, working with a power meter, thanks to SRM, uh, using their power meter pedals. It was interesting to me going carb journey and trying to figure out, would that work for me? Along the way, everything was, great on the training.

**** - (): Like we had to cram a little bit, but that was all good. The family was super supportive of it. And then, getting to Emporia and having that bluebird of a day, um, was something, that it couldn't have counted on at all in terms of the weather. The, the mileage came easy and fast. The technical elements of it were no issue for me whatsoever.

**** - (): And I felt like I had the right bike to take a few hits harder than I might have wanted to, to keep the pace going, but never had any issues there. And then to, to ride with my buddy Doug and have the experience with the, the whole crew. We had a number of guys doing the hundred and one guy doing the three 50.

**** - (): Great to make some new friends out there within the houses we were staying at. And the overall experience, yeah. 10 out of 10.

[00:59:06] - (): Justin Bowes: Nice. Okay, good. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, yeah. When, when you shared that with me the other day, um, yeah, I got off our call and I was just like, Um, I was just like, all right, I, I, it just, it's, it's, it's so rewarding, um, to see an athlete just like check all those boxes and, feel good about, what they accomplished.

**** - (): Um, because yeah, I can put together the plan for you. Um, but it's ultimately all on your shoulders to execute. Yeah. Take care of all this, the variables outside of the training plan that is, you know, recovering responsibly, being, diligent to, the consistency of, following the plan and all those little things that I can't, I can't even like begin to.

**** - (): Yeah. Help you with, that's just your wife, and so, um, again, Greg. Congratulations. It's, it's so cool to, to see and, and have a time like that. Um, I'll, I'll give the listeners, a little, uh, number crunch here real quick. You're right. I mean, you were just in under, um, 1330 at 1327 for 203 miles.

**** - (): Um, TSS, obviously off the charts with 645, um, that's, to be expected for sure. Um, average speed, I mean, just over 15 miles an hour for the 200 miles over that type of terrain is fantastic. Um, your normalized power, um, was so good. Um, Yeah, it was just the only thing that we didn't capture was heart rate.

**** - (): Um,

[01:00:48] - (): Craig Dalton: yeah, I failed to talk about that. I was so mad for so long that my strap wasn't working.

[01:00:54] - (): Justin Bowes: It's the worst when it's on and there's just nothing you can do about it. I kept

[01:00:59] - (): Craig Dalton: thinking like by the first aid station, I would take everything off and recover it, which I did. And then it still didn't work. Yeah.

**** - (): And like halfway through. The next segment, I just like ripped it off my body and shoved it in my pocket.

[01:01:12] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. I mean, just, I mean, that's, that's one like little nitpick on my end and sense of like, it would just been really interesting to see, um, the correlation between your power and the heart rate and where, I mean, it ultimately, it was always going to drop off and start to decouple, but you know where that was for you.

**** - (): Um, because then, for me, I can go back to the training and say, okay, yeah, this is, this is white. We went as far as we did and, and all of that. So, oh yeah, yeah. I mean, so there's, there was one less than ideal thing, pop up out of here and it was stupid heart rate monitor. So.

[01:01:51] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah.

**** - (): In the grand scheme of things.

[01:01:53] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah.

[01:01:54] - (): Craig Dalton: Justin, thanks so much for coming back on board and helping me recount this, uh, this event or this experience that's going to be in my memory for a long time.

[01:02:02] - (): Justin Bowes: With that, is there an Unbound in your future again or too soon?

[01:02:07] - (): Craig Dalton: It's a little too soon. And I think I mentioned to you that last week, it's hard to imagine having a better day out there.

**** - (): Then, then I had all things considered and with so many great events out there that I would love to do in time away from the family. I don't, I don't know if unbound would be it again.

[01:02:26] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, no, that's fair. That's fair.

[01:02:27] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah,

[01:02:28] - (): Justin Bowes: no, I mean, it's hard to go out. And, as, as good as you did. And like you said, I mean, uh, another experience would it, taint this one, and in the sense of like, next year is like, flats on flats on flats or, body shuts down or, whatever the case may be, or the worst weather ever.

**** - (): I mean, so yeah, go, go out on top.

[01:02:50] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. I'm going out on top, I think on the 200. For me, it's either like. Go shorter and actually like, see what it's like to race an event. Cause I don't, the 200 miler, like it's hard to consider it a race for me. It was really about managing my way across the finish line as efficiently as possible.

**** - (): Or going the other way, which has always attracted me, which is like the bike packing. route and, trying some of the real long distance stuff longer than 200 miles. Sure.

[01:03:18] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. The, the 350, the XL crew, that is, that's next level, man. Yeah. I, I, I always, I always like tease myself, like, that would be so cool just like to push your limits.

**** - (): Um, And, and, and see what that's like, um, for that distance and everything. But then reality kind of sets in on me and like, you, you're not going to do that. So I'll stick with my hundred. I love my hundred distance.

[01:03:44] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like there is like an overnight riding experience that I need to have as that next unchecked box. I've sure I've done like the team racing 24 hours, but I've never done. Sort of a self supported overnight.

[01:03:59] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:03:59] - (): Craig Dalton: Straight through. So I am, I am curious about that. Why don't we leave it at that?

**** - (): That'll be a mystery. And if, if, and when I decide to do something crazy like that, we'll chat more about it.

[01:04:09] - (): Justin Bowes: Heck yeah. Love that.

[01:04:12] - (): Craig Dalton: Good to talk to you, Justin.

[01:04:13] - (): Justin Bowes: Craig, it was great seeing you and congrats again, man. It's awesome.

[01:04:17] - (): Craig Dalton: Thank you.

This week we welcome Tomas Castrillon, the founder of Arriba Travel, to talk about the joys of gravel cycling in Colombia. We discuss the allure of traveling by bike, the unique cultural experiences that can be found off the beaten path, and the incredible diversity of Colombia's landscapes. Tomas shares his personal journey into the world of cycling and how it led him to create a bicycle travel company. He also provides insights into the specific route of Arriba Travel's Bogota to Medellin gravel trip, highlighting the challenging climbs, beautiful scenery, and rural communities that participants will encounter along the way.

Arriba Gravel Colombia Website

Support the Podcast

Join The Ridership 

Tomas Castrillon is the founder of Arriba Travel, a bicycle travel company based in Colombia. With a passion for cycling and a desire to share the beauty of his country with others, Tomas started Arriba Travel in 2011. He has been organizing and leading road bike tours in Colombia for over a decade, and more recently, he has expanded into gravel bike tours. Tomas is dedicated to providing a premium experience for his clients, combining challenging rides with comfortable accommodations and delicious cuisine. He believes that cycling is a way to explore and connect with the diverse landscapes and communities of Colombia.

• Gravel cycling in Colombia offers a unique opportunity to explore the country's diverse landscapes and connect with local communities.

• Colombia has a strong cycling culture, with cyclists of all skill levels and backgrounds enjoying the sport.

• Arriba Travel's Bogota to Medellin gravel trip is a challenging and beautiful adventure, featuring steep climbs, stunning views, and comfortable accommodations.

• The trip takes riders through rural communities where they can experience the agricultural traditions and warm hospitality of the Colombian people.

• Safety is a top priority for Arriba Travel, and the support team ensures that all participants have a positive and enjoyable experience.

Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:

[00:00:00] - (): Craig Dalton: Tomas, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me, Craig. How are you? I'm doing great. And, um, yeah, good evening to you. I'm super excited to have this conversation. We've been chatting a few minutes offline and I was just sharing, and the listener knows this well, I love gravel travel. I just love the idea of a exploration in foreign lands by bike.

**** - (): And in particular, the. Kind of versatility, a drop bar gravel bike gives you in your exploration. Of course,

[00:00:32] - (): Tomas Castrillon: it's great. What, what is it that attracts you about traveling with your bicycle? I mean, you're, you're, you mentioned it a little bit, but what's like, let's put it this way. What has been like the greatest adventure that you have been, uh, that you have had while, uh, traveling with a gravel bicycle so far?

**** - (): I think it's just,

[00:00:51] - (): Craig Dalton: you know, it's the idea that culture can unfold slowly. So as a tourist, you might go to a city and you might read a tourist map and go do this, that, and the other things, but there's so many things in between that a bike enables you to see along the way. And obviously as, as gravel cyclists, we're looking to get out into the wilderness and out into destinations unknown.

**** - (): And surely if the route is well designed. , you're, you're going well off the beaten path. Correct. So you're, you're interacting with a part of the culture that may not see so many foreign travelers. Mm-Hmm. . So you're gonna get a really authentic experience versus sort of a whitewash tourist experience you might get in a major city.

[00:01:34] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Correct? Correct. And, and what has been like the place that you said like, oh, I want to come back to this place? Or is there a place that you said like, oh, I would love to, uh, go and see that place on my, on my gravel bicycle.

[00:01:45] - (): Craig Dalton: Well, I'm going to give you two answers. One self serving in this conversation is Columbia, which is where I'm talking to you.

**** - (): And we'll get to that and why I have that in my head. Second is, is Girona. I went to Girona last year in Spain, and I think, just think there's miles and miles of gravel to explore there. And Girona itself is a great, City hub for these kinds of adventures. So as someone who, you know, I enjoy being in European cities, so you can have enough of that in the evenings, but still go spend your entire day riding your, riding your head off into the Spanish countryside.

[00:02:24] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Of course. Of course. Of course. Yes. Yes. I, I think that, uh, like coming a little bit back to me, I, I fell in love with cycling like from a very early age. Uh, maybe you're aware of these, like you were telling me, they told me before we started this conversation that your father used to be a racer, but there was this wave of Colombian cyclists back in the eighties and they were like, I was, uh, uh, I'm 42.

**** - (): Now I was five when these guys were storming the, the, they were doing so well in the, in the pro tour. And for me it was like, Oh my God, I really want to do that. I really want to ride my bicycle. My family on my father's side lives in Medellin, on my mother's side lives in Manizales, so they are far apart in terms of particularly time, because moving around these mountains can take a lot of time.

**** - (): And so for me it was like, My mind was absolutely captured by, my imagination was captured by like these mountains and how they were ever since it was like for me, a constant sense of exploration that bicycles bring brings into my life. It's still going on. As I told you, it was like from the, from a very early age that I caught the bug for cycling.

**** - (): So, yeah.

[00:03:41] - (): Craig Dalton: At this point in 2024, that sort of history of Colombian cycling is certainly in the pro tour as well known. There've been some grand champions and some phenomenal riders from Colombia. Is there a part of Colombia for those of us whose geography might be struggling to understand the country?

**** - (): Talk a little bit about the country and maybe are there hubs of cycling in Colombia that, that, that generally speaking we're graduating these phenomenal cyclists?

[00:04:08] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Well, yes, like just to give you a broad idea, like, eh, Columbia or better the Andes, the Andes mountains, once they arrive into Columbia, they split into three branches.

**** - (): The East branch, that is the one that in Bogota is located. The central branch. And as I got, I mean, as a reference point, Medellin might be the best, uh, reference point for that one. And then there is the West branch of the country. You have like pockets of, uh, cycling development all across the country.

**** - (): Okay. So there is people from Bogota that are super strong people. People from Boyacá, so to give the audience a little bit of an idea, Nairo Quintana, these guys are all from Boyacá, well, Nairo Quintana particularly from Boyacá. And then you have people from the other branches of the Cordillera, so you have people like from Medellín, like Reygo.

**** - (): So, but in general, like cycling is so, so, so big in Columbia that you get cycling from all across the country. So even places that are relatively flat, and we do have a lot of flats in Columbia, particularly closer to a north side of the, of the country, close to cities like Cartagena. So it's more like Caribbean on all these kind of atmosphere.

**** - (): There are cyclists over there as well. So actually cycling in Columbia, it's so big that it's really. Actually, hard to grasp. I'm, I'm local. I ride my bicycle almost every day. I'm still, I'm surprised sometimes by the sheer number of cyclists that you can see on the road. It's might be, uh, in the, in the team we have like this joke that there are so many.

**** - (): Uh, uh, I forget the one in English, so many hobos cycling their, their bicycle or across Columbia because you see somebody riding their bicycle full kit on in the middle of nowhere at a time that you were supposed to be doing some work and you will find always somebody riding their bicycle. And that's even more so on places like, I'm coming back to your question, like big cities, Bogota, Medellin, Manizales, coffee hub region.

**** - (): All of those places have a really, really strong cycling culture regardless. So I think that, uh, when it, when you think of a country that has like these super strong background in cycling, I would say that Columbia, uh, it's, it's like in my experience, I'm having trouble a little bit in Europe, in other places of the world.

**** - (): I would say like Columbia is still like, it's the best place for riding a bicycle, and it's amazing the number of people and people that get. Like how, not only the cyclist person, but actually the whole society. So one thing that we have in our tours and I mean, still surprising is how encouraging and how, uh, how our relations, our relationships with cycling or between cyclists and drivers is so positive.

**** - (): Compared to other places in the world, because we, I mean, I'm not saying that it's 100 percent perfect, but the number of cases of road rage that we face, it's very limited compared to, I mean, the number of cases that you would see are very limited compared to the number of cyclists that you will see on the streets, right?

**** - (): So, so that's, that's one very, very important thing about Colombia as a whole.

[00:07:19] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, that's really great to hear. Going back to you personally, you know, you mentioned sort of becoming aware of these great Colombian cycling stars and wanting to do it yourself. Yeah. As a child, what was your pathway into the sport?

**** - (): Were there clubs and different local organizations that helped foster your interest? Or was it a, was it a a solo endeavor that you pursued.

[00:07:41] - (): Tomas Castrillon: I think that for all cyclists in Colombia, it has, it's changing a little bit, but for many of us, particularly for my generation, it was basically a solo path. I would say, uh, I joke around this one as well, is that, uh, cycling used to be a nerd sport and I love it when he was, I was very nerdy at school.

**** - (): And I, and I, and I really love that about cycling. And I mean, I, and I loved like the people that are my friends from bicycles. All of them are freaks. So, so the point of that one is that, uh, uh, there was really not an established path. I did race a little bit, but it was basically on my own without a coach, without anything.

**** - (): It was. And it was never really an established pursuit, like what I was really, really attracted to about the, the bicycle was basically the state of mind that it created for me, like the, uh, searching for that, that experience that is completely ungraspable, but, but you really know that that is there. Like the beauty of the terrain, the beauty of the physical effort, the conquering the mountain, stuff that we all cyclists can relate to.

**** - (): It was never really a comp, there was really not a competitive edge on my behalf about cycling. It was more like a, uh, sort of a meditation kind of activity and, and a personal search for a way to, to, to exert myself, to really get tired and like, Like put my demons to rest sort of speaking.

[00:09:13] - (): Craig Dalton: Got it. And how did you arrive at the idea to create a bicycle travel company?

**** - (): Areva travel?

[00:09:20] - (): Tomas Castrillon: And well, we, it was basically a little bit by chance, like those are like the random paths that life takes you on. And it was, there was definitely a side of me that always wanted to be related to bicycles. I, I never really wanted to be a part of a. Like the corporate world per se, I really wanted to instead be part of something that I would find beautiful in, in the broad sense of the word.

**** - (): Uh, so for me that was cycling. So like 14, 15 years ago, uh, I was helping some friends develop an international, like the first proper international race here in Columbia. And that led into some more connections with, uh, the tourism side of, uh, of, of that kind of events, and that created some opportunities.

**** - (): So, I mean, it's completely, like, I would say that, like, all those steps are, uh, Sort of random, but there were like, it was, uh, at the same time, there were also the work that I put into like making those random events come into like the fruition of like, what is now Arriba travel. So, so basically that's where we are now.

**** - (): And, and you know, in a way that's, that's still the philosophy that I still bring into a company that it's like a place for, uh, for people to to foster the sense of exploration that we all have in within. So, uh, gravel, as you said, that has just enhanced that part of, of my personal desire to take my, uh, that desire for a new adventure a little bit further.

**** - (): Right. So, uh, so that's, that's how I come in. That's how I came into it sort of tourism side of, of it, but really in the end, it's basically Thinking about like, okay, what are the places that I want to go for myself? And if I would take a friend of mine, would I take them that way? Or is that the most beautiful road that I can make it is basically that the question that I'm answering all the time when I'm, when I'm thinking about a trip.

[00:11:32] - (): Craig Dalton: I love it. What year did the travel business start for you?

[00:11:36] - (): Tomas Castrillon: It started a, as a travel business, we did our first, a big road bike tour in 2011. So to give the audience a little bit of perspective, we were like basically the first. Company that, uh, did something as big as this one. It was a two week trip from Bogotá to Cartagena.

**** - (): So by the Pacific, by the Pacific, by the Caribbean coast. And it was two weeks long. And, uh, that was with, uh, a, we, we, with a UK based agency that we work and we are still working with them. So, uh, so, so yeah, so that, that's how it started. It started basically as many of us in the industry, like something on the side.

**** - (): Yeah. And all of a sudden it started to it started to grow and to becoming what is it now.

[00:12:29] - (): Craig Dalton: Amazing, a two week long trip, that's quite a quite an adventure.

[00:12:33] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Yes, it is. Yes, I mean I see it still is, it still is. Like, one of the things that I was telling you about Colombia is that, I mean, people don't really understand, and it's very, very hard for people to understand how big really Colombia is.

**** - (): So Colombia, when you put it together, or when you compare it, is the size of Portugal, Spain, France, Belgium, and Netherlands all together. So when you, so when you put all of that together, you realize that you really can have a 1000 kilometer touring on the spot. It's basically, it's basically that big that, that Columbia can get.

[00:13:10] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Three big mountain ranges. Exactly. To choose from as well. You've got some tough days in there, I imagine. Yes, exactly. Exactly.

[00:13:17] - (): Tomas Castrillon: I mean, and yes, tough, beautiful, everything all at once. It's incredible.

[00:13:22] - (): Craig Dalton: You mentioned. That first tour, those first tours were on the road. When did you start thinking about getting off road with clients?

[00:13:30] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Well, my, my background as a cyclist is more on the, on the, on the mountain bike scene. So as I was telling you, I was, I was very interested as a kid in, in, in, in the sense of adventure. So come the nineties and the first mountain bikes start to show up in here in Columbia. And on these family trips, I would see, I don't know, a path road that would go into the mountains.

**** - (): And I was always curious. Okay, where does that path leads to? So for me, mountain biking was always, uh, this first love that I had for cycling, like And, uh, yes, like, like the first thing that that, uh, that really caught my attention, like, okay, I really want to do this because I really want to explore even further than I have ever been, or in places that are not traditional sort of speaking.

**** - (): So in 2000, in two, in 2000, I started, uh, watching on tv, the, uh, adventure, uh, adventure races. And, and it really. This sort of endurance, the sense of adventure that this, uh, events brought. So I started to, to do a little bit of those events. And at the same time, I started to befriend people that were doing a little bit of what we currently call gravel.

**** - (): So it was basically, it was off road riding on, uh, on dirt paths. So it was, and I'm bringing this, and it was where it was early 2000 when I started to say, Okay. I want to go and explore with these guys or parts of the country. So, so there was always that in my mind and, and, and for me, it was still like this sense of exploration.

**** - (): So we did, so 10, 12 years ago, we started doing road cycling, but I always felt that itching, like to tell people there is also one beautiful side of Columbia that it's absolutely Magnificent. Uh, and it's even more challenging perhaps that, uh, that a road bike trip, uh, and it was, uh, uh, I, I have to admit to everybody, like in the beginning, I was very dubious about, about the gravel thing, because, uh, Because for me, it was a, it was like, is this either mountain biking, uh, and road cycling?

**** - (): It was not clear. And to be fair, uh, seeing the terrain in Colombia, it's still very complicated sometimes to say, to define it, okay, this is road cycling or, or this is mountain, sorry, this is gravel, gravel cycling, or this is mountain biking when you have a 15 kilometer climb at 10%. I mean, probably sometimes for some people, a gravel bicycle might be a little bit undergeared.

**** - (): As you were mentioning. So, so, so, but, but I started to doing it and I started to think of it like, okay, this is a great way for me to, I mean, there was sort of the market opportunity. It was a growing as, um, as a, as a trend. In cycling. So, and, and basically it made sense that it made sense at some point.

**** - (): Okay. Okay. We, we, we have, uh, just after the pandemics, I was like, we really have to do something that is gravel related. I was getting my first gravel, my proper gravel bicycle. And I was like, okay, we, I think that there is some merit to having a new category in the whole industry. Okay. And I, and I was completely sold on the idea, uh, on the idea of gravel bicycle for, for myself.

**** - (): Therefore, as I was telling you, once I'm sold on myself, I can tell like, okay, I want to take people to go and do all these great adventures that we safe, great safe adventures that, that I want to, to create. So for me, that, it was, that was the case that was basically the case on how we became from an idea, A little bit of personal, uh, or personal history and combining them into, into creating a, uh, sort of a business opportunity.

[00:17:35] - (): Craig Dalton: So now you've got the gravel bike and you're sort of able to free your mind of thinking, okay, I don't only need to be on the road, but I can go on the trail. You shared with me a really fantastic looking gravel trip. Talk to us about how you sort of conceived of the route and give some details. Where are we starting?

**** - (): What are we experiencing?

[00:17:59] - (): Tomas Castrillon: So how it started or how, like, basically for all trips, like, like how I, I, I start to think of a great way to connect to spots, like, uh, so two big spots on the, on, on, on the map, right? So you, like, some people know about Columbia. And some people know about Bogota and for example, me is getting all this attention at this moment.

**** - (): So you start thinking, Hmm, okay, I want to create an itinerary that connects these two dots on, on the map. And, um, and, and you realize that, and, and I know that, okay, we have, we have had an itinerary that connects Bogota to imagine on a, on, on the road for. I mean, it's our flagship prep is still our best selling trip, but there is still these, uh, people that want to take it to take the adventure a little bit further.

**** - (): So I basically start to think, uh, on, uh, trying to imagine how a route like this one will be perfect. And I just start putting the pieces together and creating an itinerary that is going to be both challenging and beautiful and has everything that I want about a, our, a cycling trip, like great accumulation all around, all along the road, because that's actually One of the hardest thing to, uh, to sort out in Columbia.

**** - (): We are still particularly in rural, in rural areas. We, we are still, uh, lacking like the tourism infrastructure in many places. So when you're thinking about putting together a trip, like you have to, uh, deal with all these constraints and find like the best, the best route that really makes people happy to come over and makes people safe to come over.

**** - (): And, and it's a route that is interesting and it's a route that has, uh, many, uh, points that, uh, many places that, that, that can be a landmark for, for people to see. So when thinking about that district in particular, I would start looking into a route. And so I know that I want to get away from, like, usually what I want to see is for people to test their, test their stamina quite a few times over these mountains.

**** - (): So going up and down, going up and down and finding, like, a, Being captivated by this country as much as I am, right? So that that's basically how, how it begins and how it, it really develops into finding the best, uh, path for that one.

[00:20:31] - (): Craig Dalton: I'm always curious when you're, you know, when you're bringing a, um, A group of mixed people who don't know one another to to a trip.

**** - (): It's often difficult to assess people's abilities and kind of create the right amount of climbing and descending and technical abilities. I know. I recall on one trip. I went on prior to signing up. They sort of gave us a little road map. Like, you know, You ought to be able to do this if you're going to enjoy this trip.

**** - (): And I thought that was interesting. You know, gravel is so complicated because, you know, you can have the best road cyclists who can go uphill super fast, but the moment they get off road, they may be challenged. And, or ironically, maybe. When they start going down the hill, that's when they're terrified.

**** - (): They go uphill really fast, but going downhill is really complicated. So I'm curious if there's any sort of guide guidelines you put out there in advance for riders to make sure they're going to have the skills to have an enjoyable time.

[00:21:26] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Well, we try to create a, uh, uh, a brochure that has like all the details, like to give you a real perspective on that one.

**** - (): It's never going to be easy because as you know, like the terrain can change for some people can thrive on wet conditions and somebody can be scared to death on a, on a dirt path that is, that is washed out. Right? So it's very, very complicated. And that's when I think that the support team really comes into play.

**** - (): A to make you feel like you can do it like I, I, we can come into this one later, but, but, but, but the, but the, the, the name of the company is about that inspiring people. And I know that. We are all capable of things that we really sometimes don't think that we are capable of doing it. So there is always like this sort of encouragement side from the team, like to make sure that it like for people to feel comfortable about like stepping outside of their comfort zone.

**** - (): Right? So I really want people sometimes to I mean, they might, they might achieve it or they might not, but at least to give it a try. And for us as a team is basically to, uh, give people the tools for doing that. Basically, that's, that's, that's where, uh, that's, uh, that's basically what, what we're trying to do.

**** - (): So in those cases, it's, uh, particularly on a gravel trip is basically offering enough support for everybody. I, either for the fast riders, like fast in terms of gravel or fast in terms of road cycling that they can go up very fast or, uh, or like, or for those who might be struggling a little bit more, like trying to find these balances, absolutely the art of, uh, of putting a trip together, like trying to find some nice details that can help people, uh, enjoy their experience.

**** - (): And in the end, like, this is something that I tell everybody, like, I know, eh, that people like, particularly if you're writing at the back, you might get a little bit, eh, worked up because you feel I'm dragging the, the, the, the, the rest of the group or I'm being the slowest writer. And I tell people, don't worry about it.

**** - (): Like, well, or, and, or the fastest riders are going to, uh, get upset with me. And I'm like, don't worry. A, it's our work to make sure that everybody gets the ride that they deserve. Right. Regardless of like their skill level and B. You know, like, and this happens all the time. It's like, or I, I, or it has been, my case is that in the end we are all cyclists and we all recognize, eh, the, the, the different, eh, stages that we are in our development as cyclists.

**** - (): Right. And in the end, it's when particularly when you're thinking about a bike trip, it's making sure that we are all sharing this experience all together as a team, right? So I'm creating that kind of atmosphere of, okay, this is teamwork sort of, uh, sort of talking. Without a, and, and, and let me be very clear about it without a making like the super fast guy, like going one kilometer an hour is never not the point.

**** - (): It's like for everybody to enjoy at their own pace. Right. So it's for us as a team to create like the conditions for everybody to enjoy and for a team to come together and say, like, regardless of our level, we are all going to have a great time riding our bicycle. Yeah. I think

[00:25:09] - (): Craig Dalton: it's definitely, there's definitely an art to it as a travel service provider, making sure that you can find a way for everybody to have fun regardless of their ability level.

**** - (): Let's talk specifics on this gravel trip. So where are you starting? You know, what is, I assume you're starting in a, in a sort of larger city or community and then you're going out into the wilderness. Just talk us through. Correct. All right.

[00:25:32] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Yeah, sure. Like the trip, as I was telling you, Bogota to, uh, to Medellin, we start just north of Bogota, like the, uh, the sprawl of Bogota as a city is very big.

**** - (): And so we are not riding properly in Bogota, but it's an international airport. So if you're flying from the U. S., it's very easy to access and we move just north of the city and we start moving. And we are first, uh, Like trying to, uh, going West, basically. So we're basically going up and down, like the first few, the first two stages, we are going up and down the Cordilleras.

**** - (): And so the Cordilleras, it's really like the mountain range itself. So it's going is, you know, you really don't find an end to them until you really are at the bottom. bottom of the Cordilleras. And how you know it is because you have arrived into a big, big, big valley and with either the Magdalena River or the Cauca River.

**** - (): Those two rivers are the, from a socio economical point of view, are the biggest rivers, the most important rivers in Colombia. So for our American audience, think of them as the Mississippi River is that big or that important for us, particularly the Magdalena. And the Cauca actually, but both of them are like that big.

**** - (): So you're always going up and down, up and down until you get to Magdalena river. Then we move, uh, uh, then we move alongside the Magdalena river for one full stage. So it's, uh, it's, it's one stage of very hot rollers. Uh, so I mean, I would say that that is never really. an easy day. We try to make it a sort of a recovery day because if you would see at the profiles, we have one big day.

**** - (): The first day it's about 18, 1800 meters. So it's about 6, 000 feet altitude. So a lot of climbing still involved on over Over 50 miles or so, like 45 miles, and the terrain can change constantly, it's a half of it, it's a paved, the other half, it's a, a proper gravel, and you're always mixing these two terrains, and that's stage number one, stage number two.

**** - (): It's a, it's a little bit more, uh, it has, uh, it had more climbing. It's closer to a 9, 000 feet of climbing in over overall over the day. And sometimes it can get very muddy. These, these areas, it's, they are a. Like, why Colombia is also known, it's for its biodiversity, and to be this biodiverse as Colombia is, you have, it has to be extremely wet at times, so it can get very wet or very cold, or very hot.

**** - (): So it's sunny, but at the same time, a lot of water is flowing into, into these mountains, so sometimes the roads can get muddy even if, even without rain. So, so it's basically like that. And we get into the Magdalena river, as I was telling you about. And then we have the other side of the Cordillera, which is generally upwards.

**** - (): Like the, the stages itself are also in those 2, 000 meters, 3, 000 meters, both of them into either one very, very big landmark that is the Piedra del Peñol. And the other one, the other stage is basically getting into Medellin. So it's basically finding, finding our way to this maze of the roads, because in Colombia, we, I mean, we do have paved roads and I'm not saying otherwise, but, but the majority of our, of our roads are, are gravel.

**** - (): And how, and it's how these small communities connect between each other and with major urban centers, right? So, uh, and this is, I think that that's what really struck me the most when I, when, when I first did the route as a whole is that when you're doing the Bogotá to Medellín route, uh, on, on, on, on the road, you feel like you're going basically, uh, On on a very, very straight road, sort of speaking, I mean, if these mountains would allow such thing like you're trying to basically basically maximize your speed, while these small roads are like a caress to to to a terrain.

**** - (): So you are you're never going like straight from. Uh, the village A to village B, but instead you are going from the farm of Don Jose to a farm of Don Julio, then back down again to a farm. So you're always up and down, up and down, like going over, like finding your way across the mountains. And I think that that's still is what strikes me the most is how, uh, variable the terrain can get, how beautiful the views can get and, and how constantly you are challenged with, uh, all these, uh, All these aspects of the road.

[00:30:25] - (): Craig Dalton: How many days is the trip in total?

[00:30:27] - (): Tomas Castrillon: In total? I mean, uh, uh, it's five stages and seven days long, the trip.

[00:30:32] - (): Craig Dalton: Okay, great. And talk a little bit about those local communities that you'll be going through. Like as we were talking about earlier, maybe it was offline. You know, you sort of go into a culture and maybe you see a city, but in this experience, you know, we're getting out there into the wilderness.

**** - (): So talk about the communities and maybe the accommodations along the way and the foods that you might experience.

[00:30:54] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Well, yes, Doug. So these are very rural communities. Uh, so, and, and some of them, like all of all, all of these communities are agricultural communities. So each one of them has a special, uh, special crop on the side along, uh, and they are known for, uh, one particularly crop.

**** - (): I mean, uh, since we're, uh, healing several of these small towns. It's, uh, all of them have, uh, have a special thing to them, right? So we get to see some coffee growers, we get to see some vegetables, some, uh, like, uh, uh, peas and all this other stuff, like, it's, uh, it's the number of, uh, Uh, communities is as wide as a, as the terrain.

**** - (): I mean, it's changing constantly. And uh, other places there is sugar cane. Other places are, for example, the bank of a river that was, uh, transforming into, uh, uh, into a dam. And so it's to a dam. So, so it's, uh, so it's, uh. still pre sabbatic, uh, so it's constantly changing. Like, uh, uh, there is everything that you can think about it.

**** - (): So for example, the, the communities at the top of the mountains, they are known for wearing like these big, uh, ponchos. We, and, and some very old people actually still use a, a hat, but very, very tiny. And, uh, as a, as a mean of being, uh, uh, very well put together. And while the people in the, uh, in the, in the valleys, in the hot valleys, they are basically just on jeans and a shirt and with a big, big hat, trying to find a way to cover themselves from the, from the heat.

**** - (): So it's, it's egg changing constantly. The colors at the, at the top of the mountain might be a little bit darker, uh, earthly like, so, uh, uh, greens, uh, uh, browns and all that. While at the bottom it can be completely dark. colorful, right? So it's constantly, constantly changing. And, and, uh, I think that that's what I think that it's more interesting about Columbia.

**** - (): It's so diverse in, and, and as I was telling you, there is so many things to see in Columbia that, and it's so big that, uh, that is never really one thing to, to, to go over the specific of that. Having said that, so we are still, uh, a cycling tour company and we, and we pride ourselves on offering a premium bike tours, right?

**** - (): So the accommodations that we have found for this trip are all, uh, these boutique places that have, uh, uh, farms that have been, like many of them are farms that have been turned into, into, into hotels. And also it's a, like a. Some of them have absolutely fantastic views and, and we're staying in, in this, a very small places that usually when a tour comes in, we are basically booking the whole place for ourselves.

**** - (): And so it's, it's like that the whole time. So it's a, it's a great balance, I would say, because it's having the opportunity of. A great ride in the, in, during the day of, uh, of what's Columbia like. But at the end of the day, we also want to have a very comfortable bed and a great place to have food and, uh, to share our experiences.

**** - (): And that's why we're fostering like this kind of, uh, wholesome experience where, where we bring all this together.

[00:34:26] - (): Craig Dalton: What type of cuisine do you like to serve the guests?

[00:34:31] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Well, we serve everything like we go. I mean, it's a, our cuisine. Uh, like the cuisine that you get in many of these villages is very, uh, uh, peasants like.

**** - (): So the stuff that these guys usually have and what is mostly accessible is, uh, rice, beans, plantains, that's usually like this, uh, stuff, uh, like the, the, the peasants food that you'll find in, in towns. Uh, once we are, uh, on, uh, in, uh, in hotels and all that, we try to aim for, and of course like, uh, we are, we also have a very strong culture of, uh, steak, uh, regardless.

**** - (): So, uh, so we are, uh, I mean it's pea food, so it's agriculture in the sense that it's, uh. That it's very traditional in that regard. And when we get to the hotels, we have a little bit more of an international flavor to it. So again, the whole thing is to share an experience, like have some wine, enjoy ourselves, like have like some balance.

**** - (): Like, of course, like the traditional Colombian life, but also what we are making. What, what we would be used to, as you were saying in Girona or any other place, like, okay, I want to have a proper meal and clean up, clean myself up and be, and having a great time. Right. Yeah,

[00:35:53] - (): Craig Dalton: of course. If you had to think about this trip, are there any favorite personal locations or moments that you would highlight?

[00:36:01] - (): Tomas Castrillon: All of them.

[00:36:03] - (): Craig Dalton: No,

[00:36:03] - (): Tomas Castrillon: I, I, no, I, I, I think that, and it might be a joke, but, but I, but, and it happens to me on, on all these trips because usually, uh, when I'm briefing people is like, Ooh, I love this day. I mean, it's very hard for me to say like, Oh no, there is a stage that I really don't like. Because. There is always this constantly changing landscape.

**** - (): There is always a new challenge, challenges that are ahead. So it's very, very hard for me like to say, Oh, I particularly like one stage or the other, I prefer, I love, I love them all. And all of them have taught me one thing or the other at some point. So it's, it's very hard for me to say, Oh, there is, this is my favorite stage.

**** - (): I, I would say that the second, having said that, I would say that, uh, the second stage is absolutely beautiful, like, uh, but the third stage as well, like, I mean, it's so complicated. It's so, so complicated. It's very, very hard to say, uh, to, to ping on one, on one, just on one, just one stage. I'd expect

[00:37:09] - (): Craig Dalton: nothing less.

**** - (): Right. We wanted, we're, we're coming to your country. We want you to show us the best we can experience. So it's not surprising that you love it all. Final question is just around the, yeah, go ahead. Yeah.

[00:37:23] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Yeah. Yeah. Well, because you say like, Oh, I want to go to Columbia. Yes. I'm very, very curious about what you want to talk to you about.

[00:37:30] - (): Craig Dalton: So I guess my history with Columbia and sort of interest in going in there, it goes back a long way. So in college. I had a classmate who was from Bogota, Columbia, and he was a big soccer player. And it just sort of talked about how much fun he had growing up there and how much he loved his culture. Then fast forward probably a decade or more, my wife worked for an international technology company and she had a project in Columbia.

**** - (): And, uh, I was actually booked on a ticket to meet her in Cartagena. At one point and then something happened and we were unable, I was unable to join her on that trip. And so I literally had a ticket in my hand to go to Columbia and didn't make it. And then over the course of this podcast, I've had the pleasure of interviewing the team from Scarab Cycles.

**** - (): So I got to talk to them and met them. They were at the Envy Builder Roundup in Utah and it reminded me, and they were just talking about how. The climbing in Columbia is amazing. And then when you get off road, it's just a spectacular country. And then I also interviewed someone who did, uh, wrote up a bikepacking route for bikepacking.

**** - (): com around Columbia. So I remember I just took away little bits from all these experiences saying like, this is definitely a place I would love to go to.

[00:38:58] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Yes. It's amazing. It's amazing. As I said, as I was telling you, and, and, and I tried to be as, as As on bias as I can about it, because I think that we were of of microphone.

**** - (): We were talking about a, a Bovan classic in Paso Roles, which is a great event. And I love it, but, but, but, but I think that, that the thing about Columbia, it's that it's absolutely impossible to. To, to tell you and to grasp how big it is. Like it's absolutely impossible. Just once you're here, you're like, Oh, wow, this is just so massive.

**** - (): Like there is really no words about it. It's, it's, it's impossible to put it into one single word or one single, eh, Storytelling about, about Columbia is really something that you would have to experience. And, and, and for example, as your former classmate was telling you, like, for example, the warmth of the people, a positive vibe, people, like it's really not, it's really not about the writing itself.

**** - (): It's about the destination is about the experience that I think that, I mean, I'm still completely in love with. And, and, and, and, and again, I, I'm riding my bicycle. all across the country, like 12 months during the year. And that's another thing that it's important. It's like, like we really do have great, like the temperature is not going to change that much.

**** - (): So it's really like a matter of being prepared, like having a jacket on, like the annoyances of the, of, of the, of, of the rain, but it's never really that cold. It's, it's always entertaining. It's always a beautiful. And as I was telling you, how, uh, how, How the landscapes, the people like Mecca, uh, are really an experience that is so, so hard to, to think about in other places.

**** - (): I, I would say that that's, that's a, that's a beauty of it. And I really do hope that at some point you can make it over. Yeah, I was just,

[00:40:54] - (): Craig Dalton: I

[00:40:55] - (): Tomas Castrillon: was just

[00:40:56] - (): Craig Dalton: going to say, I hope,

[00:40:57] - (): Tomas Castrillon: I

[00:40:57] - (): Craig Dalton: hope many of us who are listening today Can ultimately find ourselves in Columbia on one of your tours at some point, because it sounds magical.

**** - (): Great.

[00:41:08] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Yes. Great. Thank you so much for having me over. Great. Do you have any more questions? No, I appreciate you sharing your

[00:41:13] - (): Craig Dalton: story and I'll make sure everybody knows how to find you and digs into the details of this wonderful trip you've designed. Good.

[00:41:20] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Thank you so much. Yes. It's my pleasure. I'm really looking forward.

**** - (): To, to, to, to like start getting more people on our gravel bicycle tours, because it's, it's really another side of Columbia. It's really another side of Columbia. And, uh, and of course, Columbia has had like these black kids, these are these bad history over the years. And, and coming back to my experience and, and I, I was riding my bicycle during the most troubled times in Colombia.

**** - (): I was riding my bicycle on dirt paths in Colombia during the most, uh, uh, troubled times in Colombia. And I still think that. Regardless of that, cycling got like this aura of, uh, invincibility around it. Like it was like, uh, common ground for everybody. And, um, this is a, like to close it up, like, I think that it's worth telling you, I, with my friends that we do, we used to do adventure racing.

**** - (): I do remember one time that we were in an area that we weren't supposed to be in, and it was the middle of the night, like really. 10, 11 p. m. or something. No, it was closer to midnight. It was or 1 p. m. or 1 a. m. Whatever. I really still don't, uh, and, and it was an absolutely beautiful, uh, full moon. And we got to this place and these guys, uh, were, were like, What are you doing here?

**** - (): Like, but, but, and you know that these were the bad guys are quoting them. But, but they were like, so touched by the fact that somebody was willing to get to know their, their, their side of the story that were like, they just were super friendly to us. So. So, so this, uh, so for, for me, that, that, what that story conveys is that in the end, uh, Columbia, it's such a magical place.

**** - (): Like it's, it really, when, when you start hearing about the stories about Columbia, we would say like, no, it's not possible. Yes. It's possible. Like here in Columbia, everything is possible. Um, it's, uh, it's really mind blowing and I'm sorry. I'm lacking like a more, uh, uh, a colorful language to express it, but, but it really, it's, uh, it's really, it's a play that, Oh, sorry.

**** - (): It really, it's a play that, uh, that really goes beyond your imagination and the places that we go are absolutely stunning. And fortunately it's super safe. It's like things have improved so much for the best that, that is really a play that you should really aim to come over if you love it. Thanks Tomas.

**** - (): Thank you. Great for having me. It was great talking to you.

In this episode, we sit down with cinematographer and director Shannon Vandivier to discuss his work on the Life Time Grand Prix series "Call of a Life Time." Shannon shares his journey into the world of filmmaking and storytelling, influenced by his father's career as a photojournalist. He explains how he approaches the editing process as a second director and the importance of having a clear vision for the story. Shannon also delves into the challenges of filming off-road racing events and the strategies his team employs to capture the essence of each race. He highlights the importance of building trust with the athletes and creating a connection that allows for vulnerability and authentic storytelling. Throughout the conversation, Shannon emphasizes the goal of the series: to showcase the dedication and inspiring stories of off-road athletes and to foster a sense of fandom within the community.

Episode supported by AG1

Support the Podcast

Join The Ridership 

Shannon Vandivier is a cinematographer, director, and camera operator based in Austin, Texas. With a passion for storytelling and a background in photography, Shannon has honed his skills in capturing powerful imagery and using it to tell compelling stories. He started his own company in 2013 and has since worked with notable clients such as Netflix, BBC, and PBS. Shannon's work can be seen in various projects, including the Lifetime Grand Prix series "Call of a Lifetime."

• Shannon Vandivier's passion for storytelling and capturing powerful imagery stems from his father's career as a photojournalist.
• The editing process in filmmaking is akin to being a second director, and it requires a clear vision for the story.
• Filming off-road racing events presents unique challenges, and Shannon's team employs various strategies to capture the essence of each race.
• Building trust with the athletes is crucial for creating authentic and vulnerable storytelling.
• The goal of the Lifetime Grand Prix series "Call of a Lifetime" is to showcase the dedication and inspiring stories of off-road athletes and foster a sense of fandom within the community.

• "The power of editing comes with a clear vision. You don't know how your story is changing unless you know what your story is." - Shannon Vandivier
• "The bike has always been the vehicle to fun. And as I've matured through life, I've continued to stay on the bike." - Shannon Vandivier
• "The reality is, editing is second directing. The power of editing comes with a clear vision." - Shannon Vandivier

• Shannon Vandivier's website: shannonvandivier.com
• Lifetime Grand Prix series "Call of a Lifetime" on YouTube: youtube.com/lifetime

Automated transcription, please excuse the errors:

[TRANSCRIPT]
[00:00:00] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Welcome to the show. How you doing, man?
[00:00:04] - ():  Shannon Vandivier: Man, I'm glad to be here. I'm glad to be with you.
[00:00:07] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): I'm excited to have this conversation. It's probably a, an outlier. If I think back to the catalogs of conversations I have, it's usually athletes, event organizers, and event producers. So you're my first cinematographer, director, camera guy.
**** - (): Super excited to have this conversation. Cause I think a lot of us have seen your work in Certainly Lifetime, uh, Call of a Lifetime Season 1, which followed the Lifetime Grand Prix. But after looking at your website, I think there's probably a bunch of other things that we've probably seen of you over
[00:00:41] - ():  Shannon Vandivier: the years.
**** - (): Thank you. Well, maybe, maybe not. It depends. Uh, it's a big world out there. There's a lot of content, but I certainly am honored, you know, um, to be your first. Uh, camera nerd and a storyteller on your podcast. So for those of you listening who are hoping to learn anything about power numbers or Watts or course design, uh, you will be disappointed.
**** - (): Uh, but if you want to learn about storytelling and how incredibly, um, challenging it has been, and at the same time, rewarding, um, to spend a year at this point, two years with all the top off road athletes, um, in North America and now also internationally. You're in the right spot and I will, I will tell all right now.
**** - (): I'm
[00:01:26] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): excited to get into some of those challenges. Shannon, just to set the stage, where, where are you located and what's your relationship been to the bike?
[00:01:36] - ():  Shannon Vandivier: Um, let's see here. Most I'm 36 years old, born in 87 and, um, I was born here in Austin, Texas. I'm currently in Austin, Texas. Um, it's a great base camp and we have good airport hub.
**** - (): So I've never found an excuse to leave other than maybe my draw to the mountains. Um, and so, you know, like most nineties kids, like the bike was the vector to get around the neighborhood, and it's always been about. Um, for me, the bike has always just been the vehicle to fun. And as I've kind of matured through life, I've continued to kind of stay on the bike.
**** - (): Um, mountain biking to me, um, has become my favorite way to process. Even before this podcast, I went and spent an hour on the bike, just getting into a bit of a flow state and just getting my mind channeled in the right way. I do a lot of my riding, um, believe it or not. Use voice memos for that. But a lot of my thinking and processing on the bike, um, as it specifically rates, relates to call of a lifetime.
**** - (): But yeah, I think the bike is certainly a relevant character in my life. Um, and definitely was the reason why I was even interested in, um. Dipping my toe, which, which turned into diving off into the deep end, um, of creating content and storytelling in this space.
[00:03:01] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): How did you find your way to a camera in the first place?
[00:03:04] - ():  Shannon Vandivier: Ah, now that's a good question. So my dad was a photojournalist, and I grew up in a house that was covered in, um, film negative slides. And slideshow reels, and the smell of rolled film in the freezer as you were like sifting through to go find your toaster strudels or whatever. Um, and so like, I think I was five when my dad stuck his first hand me down in my hands.
**** - (): He would like sit me on the curb and as cars drove by, you know, I would earn new rolls of film if I got like cars in focus as I panned with him going by. I remember that specifically as a memory. And yeah, just, you know, my dad is, I've always been against flying, uh, airline travel. We always road tripped everywhere and we were always going somewhere.
**** - (): So I spent a lot of time traveling the world. Um, and controversially, I think I was like 12, 13 years old, you know, when my dad was taking me on shoots with him that maybe were like considered conflict zones, like still don't know, but like in, um, in a really unique way, I had a father who just really was passionate about using a lens to tell stories.
**** - (): He was a still photographer and, um, from a young age, he was just passionate about teaching me the power of the lens and the power of creating imagery and using that imagery to capture a moment in time that tells an important story. And as a journalist, um, you know, he saw himself as a responsible party and keeping politicians accountable and, um, corporations accountable.
**** - (): And he's. He still, to this day, um, heartbreakingly, probably, sees journalism as the means at which we keep society on track, um, and the truth in, in the public square. And so I've always had a value for storytelling in that context. And um, And yeah, and through, through certain life circumstances, I think I've particularly given an empathetic, um, perspective on life.
**** - (): Um, and you know, I, we had a tragedy in my family. I, we lost my youngest brother when I was nine and. Um, you know, there were some hard years there, but where, where it landed me was, um, man, life is special, and there are some really important stories to be told, and it's really important, um, and I love the idea, I should say this, I love the idea of a camera, and, um, and a lens being the vector to creating an introspective revelation in somebody, right?
**** - (): And it's this really unique thing That camera and storytelling and filmmaking can do, right? It can compress time in a way where we feel like we can learn a life's worth of lessons from somebody else in 90 minutes or 30 minutes. Um, and I, and sometimes that feels like magic to me. Um, of course we don't have the scar tissue of experience to ingrain those life lessons and anchor into our life, but at the same time, they can, they can be seeds.
**** - (): That will one day maybe blossom. And so, um, I saw it through my father growing up. I saw how his imagery impacted people. And, you know, I, I always, I always respected that. And I'm really proud that I get to follow. In a sense, my dad never did any filmmaking, but I get to follow in his footsteps. And, um, and so that's kind of what led to me to where I am now.
**** - (): I started my company back in 2000 and 13 and started Get to play with real clients in 2016, um, I've been, uh, won some awards and been featured on, you know, yeah, we've got, you can go check out. It's weird talking about yourself, right? And so there's a lot of things we've done out there and I've gotten to work for Netflix and BBC and PBS and, you know, all the big names out there.
**** - (): I'm honored to continue to work with them. And, um, I, I just, it's not about the, who I'm working for. It's about the, what I'm creating. And so that's, that's my guiding beacon. That's what pushes me forward is the, what I'm creating.
[00:07:15] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Amazing. Thanks for all that insight into your backstory. I'm curious, you know, your father obviously instilled a love of still photography and while, you know, someone picking up a phone or a camera today.
**** - (): Video is the obvious medium. Was there a point in your. Childhood, going into college, what have you, that you decided photography is great, but video will allow me to express some of the storytelling elements that I'm so passionate about?
[00:07:45] - ():  Shannon Vandivier: Yeah, it's a great question because no one asks that question. You know, um, I was frustrated with still photography.
**** - (): You know, it's what I always had in front of me. And it's, I always, like, my dad used to have this drill with me where he would hand me magazines. This is before the computer, right? So, like, he would hand me magazines, a pair of stickers, and some tape. And I had, I have still to this day, I probably dig them up, I have these spiral binders.
**** - (): And he told me, son, you need to train your mind's eye. And he would make me go cut out. Pictures from magazines, stacks of magazines that, um, that I liked to train what, what I liked. And I always remember just, like, flipping through these magazines and cutting these pictures out and pasting them in my, my spiral notebook and training my mind's eye.
**** - (): And I always just, like, remember feeling like, man, like, I don't fully understand this image. Like, it's a cruel image. But, like, I want to know everything that happened. Like, it could be a Formula one car, you know, like on two wheels about to flip over. And I'm like, did it flip over? And I just remember thinking and always feeling this wall with still photography.
**** - (): Now I'm still a still photographer. I love still photography. It's a wonderful way to capture a moment, but in terms of the completeness of a story, in terms of how technology has advanced, there's no question that filmmaking and story is the ultimate form of storytelling. It's the most. Um, and so, yeah, it's, it's a good question.
**** - (): Yeah. Recall anybody asked me that question before.
[00:09:25] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): So thinking about the amount of film that I've caught over, you know, over my life, my big problem has been the editing of it and I don't have any skills, Shannon. I'm going to be totally transparent with you on that, but I am curious about like the editing part, because, you know, you're capturing a lot of footage, regardless of what you're doing.
**** - (): But the editing is really key to making the storyline come through that you're trying to capture or that did happen out there. I'm curious. So you, you know, obviously you started to build the, the technical skills to shoot with your camera. What was that process like to become an editor that could get that end product that really conveyed?
**** - (): The stories either yourself or your clients were looking for.
[00:10:10] - ():  Shannon Vandivier: Yeah. I mean, that's a great question. The reality is, is editing is second directing, you know, um, the power of editing comes with a clear vision. Reality is you don't know how your story is changing unless you know what your story is. And so, for me and my process, and like you, I don't have a ton of skill sets in life, but one of the things that is so hard for me to do is to walk into the field with a camera and not have a plan.
**** - (): If I don't know the story I'm going into the field to tell, then I don't know how it's changing in front of me. And if I don't know how it's changing in front of me, I don't know where to point the camera. But if I've defined my story and my characters, um, then As it's changing, as things are falling apart, is usually how you can define changing and filmmaking in the moment.
**** - (): Um, you can adapt and I think, you know, editing is like baking. If you don't have the right ingredients, you're not going to have a tasty product. You have to do it in the right order and you have to give respect to the ingredients and you have to have good quality ingredients. And so to say that, um, there's any one piece of, of creating a product, a film that is more important than the others.
**** - (): It's, it's just like taking a screw out of, um, a mechanical mechanism, like everything will fall apart and nothing will work if you don't have sometimes even the smallest thing. And so, um, our cinematographers, you know, we had up to 14 people in the field this year. We had helicopters, side by sides, motorcycles, um, multiple editors in the field.
**** - (): I mean, what we accomplished this year and the sheer manpower that I had to. bring together, unify and disseminate and share a vision with, um, and follow through with that vision on, um, that in itself became the greatest, um, challenge, but it also became the greatest reward. And why I believe when people see season two of Call of a Lifetime, they're going to see, well, if they watch season one, they're going to see a big improvement.
**** - (): They're going to see improvement in a few ways. And I'd love to jump into that, but. To be direct to your question, um, that editing process is a dance and I have a principal editor, his name is Blake Campbell. He's been working with me for eight years. I mean, his sole income comes from me and has for many, many years.
**** - (): And he is one of my key relationships that I carry within my company because, um, again, I call the editor the second director. I script ahead of time. I take a script after we've shot it, and our AEs will process everything we shot, which is a lot. I mean, I don't want to underestimate under, um, overstate this, but it's a lot of content around a hundred terabytes of footage we curated this season.
**** - (): Um, and I take that pre script and I marry it to what the theoretical versus the actual, what we went in to shoot versus what we actually shot. And I reshape a script and I put that in front of my editor. And then somehow he always makes it better. Better than what I envisioned, better than what I direct in the field.
**** - (): I mean, the sound design, the secret sauce of, you know, um, uh, trick editing and creating a visceral experience. And, you know, a lot of our style and a lot of the things that I think people will come to see. to know as our fingerprints as a company. Um, a lot of that has to do just with the consistency and you know, the, the, the experience that we have or that my editor has and spending time with me through the years and knowing, you know, kind of what I like.
**** - (): And when I shoot something, I shot it specifically to be edited a certain way. And now I don't even have to communicate that to them. So I can't take credit for it. I am a editor on this series, but I am by no means the principal editor. I'm just the guy that comes in and messes his timelines up, and sometimes it's easier to just jump in there and tear up a timeline than it is to actually just write it out on paper and have someone else go in there and try to read your brain.
**** - (): So read about it
[00:14:32] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): to give the listener a little context for those of them who have not seen call of a lifetime series. One it's available freely on YouTube by the time this is broadcast season two will be available as well. What Shannon's been describing is not just a simple. Race storyline of a singular race, which may be a lot easier to tell.
**** - (): We're talking about the entirety of the lifetime Grand Prix season. So whether you're talking about season one or season two, I'm just Shannon, Shannon curious, you've got a bunch of athletes in the lifetime Grand Prix, both on the male and female side, you've got. You know, the, the favorites, you've got the dark horses, but there's plenty of them to choose from.
**** - (): How did you or, and or working with the lifetime team decide who to key in on? And you talked about having an idea of what that story arc might look like. How did you approach it at the beginning of the season and how did it evolve? And what were some of those monkey wrenches thrown into the plans?
[00:15:36] - ():  Shannon Vandivier: Yeah.
**** - (): Great question. Um, yeah, golly, you're gonna make me think. Um, okay. So to, to fully answer that question, season one, I had no idea what I was doing. I mean, It was the classic scenario where Lifetime saw my accolades and experience as a film director, knew that I could execute, signed a contract with me to go in based on a concept that I presented, which was modeled after Drive to Survive, the Formula One series.
**** - (): Which really, I just saw as such a fascinating thing, like, blew my mind. I knew nothing about Formula One. I pressed episode one of that thing on Netflix when it first came out, and it instantly made me a fan of Formula One. And as a director, as a storyteller, I was, I had to dissect that. I was like, whoa, how did they brainwash me so quick?
**** - (): And I realized that the way they, what they did, and the model that they set forth, which was ingenious, was, we're human beings. We first and foremost relate to other human beings. So before I needed to understand the formula of model, you know, the racing and the point structure and the courses and which events are more important than other events and the key players first, I had to fall in love with character.
**** - (): I had to pick who my favorites were and they did such a good job doing that and pulling you into these characters, helping you understand what they're like, you know, what's at stake for them, what their goals are, what they have questions they're asking, you know, um, and that instantly grabbed me. And so I thought that's cool.
**** - (): And then I thought bike racing is confusing and, oh my gosh, the Grand Prix, which is what the series is. Built around is an easy to follow series, limited races, invite only, cash prize, easy to follow point structure. Sweet. We have all the right ingredients and most importantly, good characters. Um, and so athletes are always good characters because athletes are passionate and they're driven and focused, you know, um, and they're mental.
**** - (): Um, and, um, and so I thought, man, this is so cool. And so. Getting on back, getting back on track with your questions. Season one, I had no idea who to pick. I just started researching, started reading everything I could find. I started just at the advice of, um, Rebecca Sands and Michelle Duffy, um, and Ryan Cross, you know, who all work with Lifetime, um, and Kimo Seymour.
**** - (): Um, they started telling me, I just asked a lot of questions. I took the list of all the athletes and I just thought, what's this person about? What's this person about? Who are they from? Where, you know, who are they? Where are they from? What's interesting about them? You know, what have they been through in life?
**** - (): How did they get into racing? And so, man, season one was like this crash course in education. Um, and it really took me months to get educated on all of that. And. Somehow, in season one, we made mostly the right picks. I think we were like 7 for 10 out of men and women on who we filmed with and who ended up in the top 10.
**** - (): This season, that was a lot because of these relationships. That's one of the coolest parts. What I'm most rewarded in, in creating the series, is It's a trust thing. I mean, to tell a person's story requires time, face to face time. Um, they need to trust me. They need to know they can be vulnerable with me, and I'm not going to betray that trust.
**** - (): You know, if something happens, then I'm not going to throw them under the bus, you know? If it deviates from who their normal character is, what their normal persona is, if If they are naturally a bit of an against the grain person, then that's their character. That's journalistic to present them as who they are.
**** - (): And if they say it on camera, and that's, and they're not afraid to shy away from that, then I will embrace that, you know? Um, and so I think that that's where interesting storytelling comes, because that's what makes this community unique. And so this year, our character selection was a heck of a lot more Experientially educated because I have relationship with the athletes.
**** - (): I knew already who the returning athletes were and how good they were and what their strengths were. And then I really just had a light lift of researching the new athletes that were coming in. And a lot of us were asking the same questions. How's Matt Beers gonna do? You know, like, How is Danny? Who is Danny Shrosby?
**** - (): Like, is a UK national champ someone to keep your eye on? Turns out she's really powerful. You know, um, you know, you got Brendan Johnson. I mean, what a cool story. Like, man, he's one of my favorite storylines this year. I had so much fun spending all year long with him and having all these touch points and staying in constant communication and I can say right now, like he's a friend and I love that and I love that.
**** - (): I have that relationship with him because I'm rooting for him in many ways. You know, it's weird because I'm rooting for all of them anyways, because all of their stories mean something. It means something to the community that knows them, that surrounds them because there's not one of these athletes that isn't inspiring.
**** - (): And that's the coolest part, right? Right. Um, can't go to an NFL game and go jump on the field and hang out with the players and run your own drills. You know, you can't do that in basketball. You can't do that in golf. You can't do that really in anything except for cycling. You know, I mean, maybe I can't say that, right?
**** - (): Like maybe there's another one out there that you, this is runs a similar example, but that's the cool part about off road cycling is that these are mass participation events. Everyone gets to line up on the same day together with these athletes and then, um, so yeah, anyways, I think I just like really ramped into my own excited digression from that question you asked, but yeah, that's, that's
[00:21:30] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): what we're all about, Shannon, happy, happy to have you.
**** - (): I
[00:21:33] - ():  Shannon Vandivier: picked the athletes based off of who I thought was a really interesting person who I, when I scrolled through their Instagram, you know, was it just bikes? Was it just all bikes? Was, are they just nerding out in a bike park? Maybe that's the character I'm looking for. It's like, who's the nerdiest bike people?
**** - (): But then you got characters like Anna Yamauchi. Like, go scroll her Instagram. She's cool. She surfs. She bikes, you know. She's like always like, you know, in a van somewhere, you know, like, uh, Christopher Blevins, her boyfriend is also just like a really cool guy to follow on Instagram. And so it got me excited.
**** - (): I was like, you know, I don't know how she's going to do as a racer, but that doesn't matter. Because she's coming in on the back foot. She's coming in as a total green racer. She has never done a race series before. She's really very new to racing. And so she's got a lot to learn. And I love that perspective.
**** - (): I love that perspective of someone coming in that really, you have no idea how they're going to do. They don't have experience. They need to see the series with fresh eyes, which is an important perspective. Again, For those people who don't know much about racing. And so, you know, my selection of characters was strategic and it was about how I want to continue to evolve the story and, you know, who's got a story to tell and who's good on camera, you know, like that's also a thing.
**** - (): Like if you're awkward on camera, that doesn't make good storytelling. So, you know, like those are real investments. There's, I can't name any names, but. There's times when you invest time you have your crew get with people and film with them and you walk away thinking like, yeah, I don't think it even does them justice to use.
**** - (): Yeah, that's okay. You know, that's okay. You mentioned
[00:23:16] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): that that trust that trust required to have a real authentic conversation and representation of the people you're filming. Do you feel like. You know, going into year two, because of the efforts in year one, that it was easier to kind of get embraced by the newer characters and the newer people you were working with.
[00:23:35] - ():  Shannon Vandivier: Oh, my gosh. I mean, without a doubt, year one, we were trying to convince people like, Hey, this is gonna be cool. Yeah, we had season one, they already knew it was cool. They all love it, right? Like, maybe not all of them, you know, like, depending on who you are. And I think the reality is, is, Is we didn't have to prove ourselves.
**** - (): We didn't coming into walking into season two, people, people realize that this vision that we have with the series is about truly just building fandom. Just honestly, it was just like, what better way to say it? Like we want to make off road racers famous. Like we want people to know how cool they are and what, how much they sacrifice to do this thing that they do and how impressive it is.
**** - (): Um, and the world should see that and be inspired by it. And so that was the objective. That was the goal in season one. And we had to have a lot of conversations with athletes. Like literally like Pacey McKelvin was having to text Keegan for me and be like, dude, Shannon's cool, like. I think you're going to like this project like you should just sit down and have an interview with them and you know, and then walking into season two, you know, I'm, I'm calling Keegan.
**** - (): I'm like, Hey, man, when can I get on your schedule? And usually he's like, cool. Anytime that's not before the race focus. I respect it. Um, he manages time so well, which again, it's Why he performed so well. And I think that was an interesting learning experience this year is, is really getting to see Keegan's dominance and as a character, see that evolve.
**** - (): And then how that pairs to what I'm learning about him behind the scenes. Um, and, and how that's a testament to, you know, how to be successful. And so. Yeah, season two is, I mean, here's a spoiler, average length of these episodes is like 35 minutes. I mean, some episodes are 45 minutes long. Wow. Last year, I think some of the longest ones were like 22, 25 minutes long.
**** - (): And that is a testament to people giving us time, to good story. It's also a testament to the hardest nut I've ever had to crack. In filmmaking in my career, hands down is how to film off road racing. That is a challenging thing to do. It takes a lot. I have a
[00:25:50] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): bunch of, I have a bunch of questions on that front.
**** - (): Yeah. Before we jump into the technical part of filming off road racing, I'm curious, like you, you said you, you go in and you choose a selection of athletes to work with. And I imagine, you know, we don't know when you start filming, you don't know if someone's going to have an injury. Someone's going to drop out of the series or, you know, something unexpected has happened.
**** - (): Do you go in with ten athletes knowing you probably only have eight storylines you can tell and certain ones end up on the cutting room floor and don't end up making an appearance in the series?
[00:26:28] - ():  Shannon Vandivier: Yeah, no, I mean, it's a good question. No, I don't think anyone spent time with us and did not make the cutting room floor.
**** - (): Period. Uh, however, there are certainly investments you make on the front end of a season, hoping someone might do better, but if they're not performing and. They don't necessarily have some compelling aspect of the story that keeps you really interested. Um, then you might see them fall off in the series, you know,
[00:26:55] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): that's normal.
**** - (): Yeah, conversely, I imagine you might have a character, I keep saying character, but an athlete who starts excelling later in the season. And you didn't really think that you would be following her throughout the year as closely, but it's clear they're doing exceptional things in the
[00:27:13] - ():  Shannon Vandivier: series. I mean, last year, Haley Smith, she wasn't on our radar until I think I interviewed her after the race at Crusher and the Tusher last year.
**** - (): I mean, that's a long way into the season. I mean, I was like, man, who is Haley? You know, again, I just didn't know what I was doing. She wasn't on my radar. No one put her on my radar, but like when you look at her on paper. I, she should have been on my radar from the get go, but the reality is, is she had a strategy to her season.
**** - (): She was gonna, she didn't want to burn herself out too quick. She wanted to be peaking, which is a strategy, right? To be peaking on the back end of such a long season. So, last season, The female champion, right? Of the, the, the number one spot of lifetime Grand Prix. We didn't even know about her until Crusher.
**** - (): We didn't even recognize who she was or how, how impressive of an effort she was putting down until then. So, um, this year, I can't say that that happened to us. We got lucky, you know, in that sense. I think I was hopeful. I was hopeful some of my, the dark horses like Matt Beers would have showed up a little bit more.
**** - (): Um, honestly, I think that I really wanted, I want to see Keegan lose. Like I do, you know, like I want to see him lose. Not because I don't like Keegan, but because like. Dang, like that dude ran and ran and kept running and just ran away with the series and which in itself Became a really important part of the story this season But I would love to see someone challenge him.
**** - (): I would love to see that right dethrone Keegan like dude, that's gonna be a cool storyline when someone actually shows up to do that I think Keegan wants that too, by the way You know, like Sophia as well. Like I think they're there to race and when they actually have something to race for, when they have someone really pushing them to their limits, um, that's when you get stronger and that's when you really understand who you are.
**** - (): And so, yeah, I think, um. Yeah, I don't know. I could, I could, you want to keep going. I can keep talking, you know, like, dude, uh, my brain is hit on some of these topics because I mean, I've literally analyzed these writers, these scenarios, these dynamics, every possible way that I feel like I can't. And so coolest and most inspiring part of it, all of it is just simply the fact that, you know, um.
**** - (): What's happening in North America is so unique and so special. And yeah, the fact that those international athletes, although I wish they would have performed a little bit better, some of them, you know, some of them performed great and really kind of figured out where they were in the pecking order here.
**** - (): And I think it's really cool. All of them are coming back next season. Yeah.
[00:29:56] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): I think clearly like a bunch of them figured out what it's like being in the U. S. this long or doing, you know, how to handle coming back and forth to their home country and back to the U. S. So yeah, I'd like to think in 2024, some of them are a little bit better prepared to be super competitive and that'll be exciting for all us fans.
[00:30:15] - ():  Shannon Vandivier: Yeah, Matt Beers said it best. We were doing an interview at Big Sugar and he goes, I can't do a South American or South American, South African accent. Um, it'll probably come off as like a leprechaun or Australian, but he says, you know, I've cracked the American code. He's like, I figured it out. I'm coming back next season.
**** - (): And the American code is altitude. And he's like, and I'm coming back and people better watch out. So I think he's like, he's, he thinks there's an American code and he's just spent the season sussing it out and figuring it out. And now he's going to come back this next season, um, with a different or better training plan.
**** - (): So yeah, I love it. Which is cool. You know,
[00:30:55] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): you had mentioned something earlier and it might've been before we started recording just about sort of the challenge of creating a series after we know the results already. How do you think about that? I mean, obviously there's such an infusion of the personal storylines that's a huge bonus that we don't get throughout the year as race fans following these races on social media.
**** - (): So how do you think about, you know, the fact that the results are known and you're still, you know, building a story narrative about the season? Hmm.
[00:31:29] - ():  Shannon Vandivier: Okay. Um, did you, did you follow any of the racing this year? Mm hmm. Yeah. Do you get a tingly, like overwhelming sensation and a grin on your face when you saw who got first or second, say at Leadville?
**** - (): Yeah, a hundred percent. Right. Do you think when I frame this thing up around a story that shows you inside that writer's face, what he's feeling emotionally or what she's feeling emotionally and everything that In the immediate past and also the distant past that she's had to put in to get to that moment, that maybe that tingly sensation and the way you experience that race will be even that much more elevated.
[00:32:14] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, a 100 percent Shannon and I like
[00:32:16] - ():  Shannon Vandivier: that. Right? It's like, I'm thinking about how, like, the reality is, it's like. Man, I, I don't remember. I, I watched Formula One, I guess, but sometimes I've forgotten one. But like, the reality is, is like, the episodes aren't about the race, really. You know, like That's funny, I don't Which I don't think is a
[00:32:35] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): vector.
**** - (): I love that series as well, and I've never watched A Formula one race in that season. My entire experience is like a year removed because I just watch it during that Netflix series.
[00:32:47] - ():  Shannon Vandivier: Totally. Right. And so I think that like, to me, I think there's a cool thing, right? Like if you're a hardcore, like Grand Prix or just off road cycling fan and you follow everything.
**** - (): Um, I think you're gonna have watched the race in real time and understood the value, the importance, the significance of who won or, you know, the characters involved, the racers involved, and why it's a big deal that they won. But when you get a chance to watch our series and you get a chance to like really see behind the scenes, you know, like we're in their homes with them, you know, like we are, um, We are showing a layer of vulnerability that you actually haven't ever seen before.
**** - (): I mean, there's never been put out there on these particular, you know, people. Um, and so I think how I've approached the creative on this is to not even think about the fact that, you know, the results are out there because it's about the layers. You've seen the one, the layer of them crossing the finish line or the footage of them racing that race.
**** - (): But. I've got five more layers to peel back for you, and I'm going to connect some dots for you, and I'm going to show the interpersonal relationships between the women and between the men, you know, and sometimes in some cases between the women and the men, you know, because the men's races often can impact the women's races, you know, that's a challenge.
**** - (): That's another way that lifetime is looking to continue to evolve, and they want You know, as this thing that's happening in North America right now, you know, it's, the evolution is going to come at the pressure, the ideas, the sentiment of all of us, you know, or all the, the key components of all the racers, the mass participants, as well as the pointy end of the spear, you know, as well as these athletes who are way out front and who are only making this faster and faster and faster.
**** - (): And so the rules will change a little bit. They're already changing a little bit, you know. It's cool to see, you know, how the women feel you heard it when you were watching the race unbound, you heard women have their own start. And maybe you saw an interview too, about a woman saying, Hey, this is really cool.
**** - (): We're really excited for this, but I unpacked. The shit out of that, like, like in there, like, I really wanted to understand from the most core credible writers, why is that a big deal? How does that actually change the dynamic dynamic of your race? Like, um, how was it safer? Like, what does that mean to you?
**** - (): Like what happened to you last year versus what is going to happen to you this year? You know? I think there's a lot of examples like that. Storylines that just really, I think will, will come to life. And I think you're going to see. What's currently like, I don't know, as an analogy, two dimensional, you're going to see three dimensional, right?
**** - (): You're going to see these storylines and these races and what's going on. And, you know, these athletes right now, as we speak are, are already getting in five to eight hour rides. You know, like if you're following them on social media, they're already training, you know, like a month off. Like that was their off season.
**** - (): They went to Mexico, had a margarita and now they're like. Already binge eating carbs and like, you know, crushing crazy miles. And all they're thinking about is like Mid South, you know? And then after that, it's BWR. And then it's like, it's just months away. And so, you know, like those are the stories and that's the layer that I'm excited to show is just really.
**** - (): The sheer amount of dedication and that goes, yeah,
[00:36:20] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): it's been super interesting getting to know some of these athletes through your eyes and through your storytelling. I definitely for myself became more of a fan of certain athletes and less of a fan of others, which was super interesting. I think the other thing not to be discounted, and maybe this is a good segue into the technical challenges of filming these events was, you know, you have the best equipment to film these.
**** - (): Racing environments. So if you're looking to see what is the gravel feel like in Bentonville, your camera footage and the equipment you have on in the field gives you that feel, which I love because I'm I've always been about exploring. The different types of gravel in the U. S. and what the experience is like and trying to extract that from race organizers.
**** - (): So I definitely appreciate that thread. For the listener to just think about before you answer this question, we're talking about mountain bike racing at Sea Otter on single track. How do you get in there? We're talking about cruising 200 miles across Kansas where Coverage is difficult. The terrain is difficult.
**** - (): We're, you know, in Bentonville, we've got all these different locations. Schwamigan, for God's sake, I don't know how you get any footage there. So, talk about, and maybe you can juxtapose Season 1 to Season 2, how do you get out there in the field? How do you get these shots that make us feel like we're part of the race?
**** - (): Man,
[00:37:47] - ():  Shannon Vandivier: you know, golly, what a question. Here's the thing, man, is like, it's been trial by fire. It's really what it's been. It's been a lot of mistakes made. It's been a lot of hard lessons. It's been a lot of adapting. I mean, the IQ that we've accumulated at this point is extremely valuable to me, to my team.
**** - (): You know, like, I don't know, like, I think the reality is, is. Anyone outside of my team probably doesn't even really see it. You can hear my words that I'm about to speak right now, but the reality is, is everything I'm about to say has come at the cost of a lot of brainpower, a lot of thinking. I mean, the softness of the gravel, how much dust.
**** - (): That it's composed of, how sharp it is, how far that we're going, how much potential mud is on the course. If it's too dry, what's that going to do to the race and how we cover it. If it's too wet, what's that going to do the race and how we cover it. I mean, compare and contrast big sugar to unbound this year, you know, like moon dust versus the thickest, stickiest mud that you can find.
**** - (): I mean, the type of mud that buries you down to your axles and stops if you do it the wrong way. And so. Um, you know, Schwamigan, oh my gosh, Schwamigan, Schwamigan's hard, Schwamigan's scary, Schwamigan's so fast and covering Schwamigan is really tough. So, all right, let me break this down for you. Every race has a characteristic.
**** - (): And the first thing I'm asking myself is how much of it is two track versus single track. Single track obviously is the hardest thing to cover. Um, you know. The, the way you cover it has a lot to do with how often and what the shape of the course is. Where can I create cutoff points? How can I leapfrog riders?
**** - (): Uh, we're using e bikes a lot at Sea Otter. That's a huge characteristic of Sea Otter is getting out there on e bikes. And so we'll go cover, honestly, 40 miles in a race ourselves on e bikes with. Camera backpacks on, drone strapped to them. And I've got a team of seven people just on e bikes out there mobbing around and doing what they got to do.
**** - (): On top of that, we find the access points where I can get a vehicle out there. I can get bounce around. That's another unit. That's another crew. You know, a helicopter is a wonderful tool. And we didn't have that at Sea Otter this year, but certainly is in the conversation right now for this next year. I think helicopter obviously is the best way.
**** - (): And I'm so grateful to Lifetime for their continued vision and investment into the tools needed to be successful. And that's been a part of the learning process and, you know, like any wonderful. Client, you always go over budget on these things and they haven't murdered me yet. And so I just can't thank them enough for that.
**** - (): Um, and so, you know, the reality is, is it's all in the effort to just produce, produce the highest quality content that you can. Um, but. You can't have one thing if your content is all statics of a rider swiping by, or it's all constant tracking motion, you know, or it's all from a helicopter, then it's one dimensional, you need all of it.
**** - (): And that in itself is the inherent challenge to make it cinematic, really particular about the quality of my, if I put my name to it, I want it to be the best, you know, and that's something that cinematography is incredibly important to me. Um. Probably borderline OCD on that. And so I think that that is a huge weight that I put on myself and my team to make sure that we execute.
**** - (): And tools of, of the trade, um, help a lot, but again, diversity is key. And so you need a mix of all of it. And so you need to. I mean, our strategy plans probably look pretty similar to like what it looks like for like a Navy SEAL team or Marine team when they're like planning a siege on a city, you know, we've got maps out and I've got, you know, upwards of 15 people in a room sitting there and I'm, I've got code names for the units.
**** - (): I'm like, all right, unit a unit B unit. C unit D, here's what you're doing. You're going to leapfrog you unit, um, be here. And then you're going to pivot over to the Eagle's nest. You know, like we've broken down the course into its variable carrier characteristics, especially as we've defined the course. I mean, that's one of the most valuable IQs that I currently hold is like.
**** - (): Say another team is to walk in after us and try to execute the same project. I know almost every corner of every turn of every course, you know, like that in itself is an investment of time. It's an IQ and in doing so you can actually, we've got to a point where we understand the dynamics of the race.
**** - (): And part of that is the strategy of the racer. I know when, I can predict when someone's going to attack, and it's based on the terrain. It's based on where they're at psychologically, at what point in the race, and how they need to separate, create separations in the field. Yeah, yeah. First 25 percent of the race, you can.
**** - (): You can count on selection one happening 100 percent like that's intentional, that's strategic. They need to blow the field up as soon as they can. Once you're, you have your, your lead in your chase group, um, then it becomes, um, then it becomes an interesting dynamic of. Using key features on the course to start weeding guys out.
**** - (): So you'll see attacks happen on hills. You'll see Keegan and Finstie try to blow Cole up, you know, and he'll be a cockroach. He'll keep coming back, you know, and they'll keep trying to blow him up. They did that at Sea Otter this year, you know, he kept showing back up. He kept showing back up all the way up until.
**** - (): Um, that, that, uh, that final climb and, um, that final climb is certainly, um, where Keegan and Fenstein finally got that separation from them. But until then they were using the landscape and they were strategically using, um, the, the pack dynamics to To create certain scenarios. And so we can use that to our advantage.
**** - (): And when we have that IQ and we understand the essence of, of racing and my whole team understands that my whole team has experienced at this point, then you're successful. And that's what we figured out this year. I mean,
[00:44:06] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): That's the gold for us fans when we're watching this. If we can actually see that moment where the elastic is stretched to the end and it bursts and see and feel that emotion, like that's the moment that we all want to be in.
**** - (): That's so difficult to capture in off road
[00:44:21] - ():  Shannon Vandivier: racing. Well, to predict where it's going to happen, right. And I'm not saying I'm a hundred percent, but every race we were there, you know, every race at those moments, you know, when someone drops out of the race, you know, Alexis Skarda, like one of my favorite people, um, in the series, honestly, cause she's so, she's a very intense, like she's a really laid back person, actually, which is funny, but when she races, like she puts her eyes on and like, man, that girl, like, look, I get out of her way.
**** - (): She's. She's a killer. Um, and so like seeing that point where she actually had to drop out of Unbound, it was actually a really sad moment for, for those of us who were rooting for her, you know, but to be able to capture that, to be able to tell that part of the story and to see where she, um, she actually had to To fall off of Sophia, um, was, was hard.
**** - (): Um, and so, you know, like, capturing that, I think as a fan, I think you're going to really be able to relate to the sheer effort that goes into these things, and the psychological warfare that is going on between riders, but also the hardest person there is to race is yourself. Yeah. So, capturing
[00:45:29] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): those moments.
**** - (): Having spent Yeah. Having spent so much time thinking about these series the last couple of years and becoming a true fan yourself, is there a single race that you'd call your favorite?
[00:45:42] - ():  Shannon Vandivier: Hmm. That's a great question. I like Unbound the most, a hundred percent. I think Unbound is interesting because you just don't know what's going to happen.
**** - (): Um, it's a really fun race to film be in the, in the sense that we actually logistically, it's one of our, our, it has the fewest amount of logistics. Um, because it's just 200 miles of gravel road. So our vehicles, we can do a lot of leapfrogging. So our coverage is really good. So our storytelling is really good.
**** - (): It's really dialed. And you know, this year I'm looking at the nuance. I'm looking at the nuance of who's pulling and who's not pulling. You know, last year I didn't know about pulling and I didn't know about, you know, like everyone doing their work. And so this season being able to just watch the strategy and on the men's side, it was like so crazy inspirational because you had seven guys.
**** - (): That, like, basically, once you got through the mud, worked together, truly together. Nobody, nobody sat on the wheel at all. Everyone worked together, like, it was kind of crazy because it came down to a sprint at the end and it's just, like, didn't seem right. You know, like, Pete Stettin, I think, was seven out of the seven guys.
**** - (): But, like, man. You're talking about seconds, you know, you're talking about him putting in so much work. And if you look at the year before he got, I think eight, but it was a way different race, you know, like amount of effort. I don't think his result actually justified the effort that he put into it. But yeah, it's because they all work together that they all got through it.
**** - (): And so it was really cool, which might change people's strategy. A guy like Pete next year might be like, forget this. Like I'm a, I'm actually going to be bolder and blow the steel, blow the screw up, you know, and try to actually make a flyer happen or convince three guys to fly off with me sooner so that we know it doesn't come down to seven of us trying to sprint each other, you know, like, so I think Unbound, I think is.
**** - (): I like it because there's a lot of strategy involved, you know, single track mountain bike racing is heavily dependent on skillset, which I'm a mountain biker predominantly. And, and I get that and I think that's really cool. I like filming mountain biking a lot because it's really dynamic and fast and windy and like you have the trees and like when you see our cinematography this year at sea otter, I think you'll be really excited.
**** - (): We made it pretty, um, it is pretty. And so, um, but. But gravel racing is like this beautiful blend between mountain biking and road racing where you actually have, you don't have teams necessarily, but man, it's so cool to see these pack dynamics form and then to see the respect or disrespect they built for each other.
**** - (): And so, um, it's like last season in season one, I believe it was Ivar who, I mean, we. We filmed it. He sat on that wheel a lot. He was the most well rested going into that sprint. There's no question about it. You know, like the thing it was talked about, he won, you know, that's a strategy. It's not how you become popular, but it's certainly a, an opportunity to win.
**** - (): And so, you know, that's a strategy and you might, you know, you, you might need to be a bit of the match, you know, like to actually win some of these races. And
[00:48:50] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): so, yeah, you can't get away with it too often. But, you know, you got, probably got one big one in you where you can sit in, people don't know you.
[00:48:59] - ():  Shannon Vandivier: Yeah. Yeah. How many times do you have to win, uh, Unbound to secure a couple of years worth of sponsorships though? You know? So,
[00:49:05] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Thanks for all the time, Shannon. This was super exciting to get the behind the scenes. Clearly, you guys put so much work and effort into it, you and the Lifetime team.
**** - (): I'm super excited by the time this airs, I'll probably have binge watched the entire season two and I encourage everybody out to go out on, uh, it's on Lifetime's YouTube channel to find the
[00:49:28] - ():  Shannon Vandivier: content. Right? Yeah. You can find it, um, on Lifetime's YouTube channel on their social media pages. You can certainly come follow me at Shannon Vandiver or my company at Code Collaborative.
**** - (): Um, and you'll find all sorts of fun stuff there, but. Thank y'all. We really, I really hope you enjoy it. I really hope that you fall in love with the characters. And again, the goal at the end of all of this is just celebrate, um, getting outside and being healthier. And, you know, we want to harbor on just how inspirational these athletes are.
**** - (): And so you can expect to be inspired. If you want to get inspired, check out this series, because these athletes have inspired me for sure.
[00:50:07] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Fantastic. Thanks, Shannon. Thanks,
[00:50:10] - ():  Shannon Vandivier: dude.

Erwin Verveken, former professional cyclocross rider and organizer of the UCI World Gravel Championships, discusses the history and growth of the UCI Gravel Series. He explains how the series was created to provide a more diverse and competitive experience for riders, and how it has quickly gained popularity and attracted top riders from around the world. Erwin also shares insights into the qualification process, the different types of gravel courses, and the future of gravel racing.

Episode sponsor: Dynamic Cyclist (TheGravelRide for 15% off)

Support the Podcast

Join The Ridership 

Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:

Key Takeaways:

• The UCI Gravel Series was created to provide a more diverse and competitive experience for riders, with a variety of courses and race formats.
• The series has quickly grown in popularity, attracting top riders from around the world and expanding to include more events each year.
• Gravel racing is a unique blend of road racing and off-road riding, with courses that can vary in technicality and terrain.
• The UCI Gravel World Championships allows both elite riders and amateurs to compete together, creating a unique and inclusive racing experience.
• The series is constantly evolving, with new events being added each year and plans to expand to more countries in the future.

[TRANSCRIPT]
[00:00:00] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Erwin, welcome to the show.
[00:00:02] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Thank you. Thank you. It's a pleasure of being here.
[00:00:06] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): I'm excited to talk to you and learn more about the UCI World Gravel Championships and a little bit of the history there. But as always, I'd just love to start out with learning a little bit about you. I know you've got a, a strong history in the sport of cycling. So just a quick overview of how you got involved in the sport.
**** - (): And then let's talk about how you got involved in. Kind of the event organizing side of the sport with UCI.
[00:00:29] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Yeah. So I, I've been a pro rather mainly in cyclocross, uh, from 1995 till 2010. So a 16 year career in cyclocross, uh, uh, from the age of 22 to 38. And then when I retired from cycling in 2010, I started to work as a cyclocross and also a bit of model by coordinator at a lot. So lots of is a Belgian sports marketing company.
**** - (): Um, uh, at that time we were, I wouldn't say small, but yeah, it's, it's, it's grown a lot in, in the last, uh, 15 years. Um, and so initially I was only doing. Cyclocross, uh, in winter and mountain bike in summer. And then gradually, uh, I got other projects and in 2011, we started to talk to the, to the UCI to, uh, well, to reform a bit, the, the masters road world championships.
**** - (): So, um, yeah, everybody knows Ironman, Ironman, uh, and triathlon. You have to. Qualify somewhere in an arm and worldwide, uh, to get your ticket for the World Championships and, uh, well, the, the, the road Masters World Championships, uh, at the UCI, they were always organized in the same city in, in the same period for, for 20 years in Austria, uh, and there were some complaints of course, because the, the, yeah, always the same course, uh, the same type of riders, um, yeah, World Championships should move, uh, uh, you know, One day it should be a flat and fast race and then a race for climbers or for classical riders.
**** - (): So we came with a proposal to reform it like in Ironman with the qualifier series, uh, which, which started in 2011 with seven qualifier events and then a world championships. And well, it moved from seven the next year to 20. And yeah, now for next year, it's. events. It's the biggest series we've ever had.
**** - (): 2024. I mean,
[00:02:26] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): curious, Erwin, when, when you expanded the qualification, the number of qualification races, did you end up expanding the number of athletes that could actually compete in the world championships for the masters?
[00:02:38] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Yeah. Uh, so it has always been 25 percent per age group will qualify for the world championships. And so the results are major made up per age group. Um, and, and, uh, yeah. So from that, uh, point, uh, Uh, yeah. First year I think we had 700 drivers at the world championships. Uh, and then it grew to over a thousand thousands, 500, 2000.
**** - (): And in the last few years, we are in between two and a half and 3000, which is still okay. Uh, one year we decided to lower the percentage of qualified rider from 25 to 20 because of safety. Uh, we, we got 3000 riders at the start of, uh. Of one single event on a day, uh, so the Grand Fonda World Championships, but then it was, uh, yeah, 2020, the COVID year, so, and, and, and afterwards, uh, yeah, it took some time for riders to start traveling again.
**** - (): So we, we went back to 25%. And in that idea in 2019 at the end of the season in a debriefing with UCI, we proposed also to make up a similar series of gravel events. Gravel is big in the States. I think the first real gravel events date from 2005, 2006 or so. Um, and they, yeah, we saw in Europe and other continents, but mainly Europe, um, gravel has always been Uh, a bit more recreational, um, never competitive.
**** - (): Um, and it's only, let's say the last five years that there's really competitive parallel events. Um, so, so yeah, and at the end of 2019, we proposed. A similar setup with the qualifier series, uh, leading up to a yearly world championships. Uh, which then, well, got postponed in 2020, 2021 because of COVID. Uh, so the, the, the first season was 2022 with 11 qualifier events.
**** - (): Uh, and this year already 18. And next year 25. So yeah, it's growing very fast and especially the number of participants is growing very very fast. So um And and the big difference is in gravel in the gravel world cheers and also the gravel world championships also elite riders can participate. So Where the, the ground from the world series is mainly for masters and amateurs.
**** - (): Uh, the gravel world series and the gravel world championships is, is for everybody. Uh, but still in the same concept where. In front there is a real battle amongst the best elite riders but in the back you as a recreational rider, you can also participate and if you're really fit and Keen and and also for the masters at a later age You can still qualify for the world championships and also right there together with well this year what for not more each?
**** - (): Following they were all at the start So yeah, I can imagine if you if you start in the back end and you're just five minutes behind these riders Uh, at the start, uh, that it's an amazing feeling to, to be in the same race with all those top stars.
[00:05:47] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, yeah, that's I remember speaking to Bruce from the Highland Gravel Classic in Arkansas, who's the the one US gravel race that's part of the UCI series this year and the coming year in 2024. And I remember walking away from that conversation with that same feeling that Despite what some people in the United States may think about, you know, high performance gravel racing, and as it may detour from their vision of a community style gravel race as people who are around the sport and like other aspects of the sport, just being able to line up at a, at a UCI event with the names you just mentioned would be a thrill of a lifetime.
[00:06:27] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Yeah. I think so. Um, of course, gravel in the States, uh, is, is, is much older and has much more tradition and, uh, your biggest events are, are still bigger than, than the UCI events. Uh, our biggest event this year was 1700 and probably next year we will go over 2000, but yeah, if you speak about the real classics, uh, unbound and, and, and, and, well, you have several of them.
**** - (): They are more than double than our biggest race at the moment, but I think we still have potential to grow. Um, I see that, um, what, what really excites me is that after all these events and especially after the world championships, you all, you hear all these top stars telling, Hey, this was fun, huh? Wout van Aert had big trouble, a flat tire, a crash at the world championships, but he still continued because he liked it so much.
**** - (): And he yeah. Enjoyed. Riding a gravel race. So yeah, he is, by the way, my neighbor because he's living in the same city as me even. Well, if you count in miles like you do in the States, it's a bit more than a mile from where I live. And he called me and told, Hey, I want to do a UCI gravel race because I want to do the world championships this year.
**** - (): So all of a sudden he was there at the Belgian qualifier event in August and then six weeks later at the world championships and he really enjoyed it. So And that's the good thing. They are pure ambassadors, not only for cycling sports in general, but also for gravel because, uh, they have a lot of fun.
**** - (): Um, Valverde was there, Moritz, he said, well, it's my first gravel race I ever did, world championships. I always liked. Going off road, uh, mountain bike, but in gravel there's much more speed, it's much more fun. And, and yeah, I want to do this more next year, especially because of course he's wearing the nice rainbow jersey.
[00:08:26] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): That's right. Yeah. I think it's going to be interesting to see how within the European Peloton, if it follows the U S. You know, in, in the early days of gravel as professional athletes started moving over like Ted King, for example, would dabble in it. And then I think he told some of his ex pro tour friends that, Hey, this is fun.
**** - (): Plus you started to see them being able to make a career out of it. And obviously the likes of Wout van Aert is not going to leave the pro tour anytime soon, but it is interesting to think about. Riders who are later in their career, who still have power in their legs and enthusiasm in their heart to start seeing European gravel racing as a way to extend their career in a way that maybe gives them a little bit more joy than they had racing in the pro peloton after all those
[00:09:16] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Yeah. No, for sure. Um, I think there are two types of writers. You have the real top stars, like Rod van Aert, like Moritz and Demi Vollering. And I'm sure they will probably do one or two events a year when it fits in their program. But their focus will never be on gravel, uh, during the season, but well, the position of the gravel world championships at the end of the road season, uh, is ideal for them to end their season.
**** - (): And I'm sure that, uh, one day, uh, probably also, uh, Pogacar will be there. He was already there at the first world championships last year. but wasn't allowed from his team to take part, but he was in the, in the VIP area at the finish line. The day after he won the Tour of Lombardia, so the last classic of the season, it was on Saturday and the gravel world championships were, well, nearby.
**** - (): It's only a hundred kilometer away. So, and he really enjoyed it and he said, well, I want to do this race. But, yeah, it's still, um, there's still like the feeling of, okay, this is a dangerous sport, uh, uh, you can crash, you can, yeah, whatever, and it can jeopardize your next season, but as it's at the end of the season, I don't see really a point, uh, you see some, some crashes and, and, um, Yeah, that's, that's probably part of gravel, but it's not like a major crash.
**** - (): It's always in small groups. Uh, gravel is, is, is not to be compared with, with mountain bike or cyclocross. It's a, it's, it's an off road discipline, but the type of event is much more road race. Um, and that's what we also also see in the last two years. I'm having my background in cyclocross and cyclocross is very big in Belgium, but the real gravel, I know the real cyclocross specialists, like the ones who do the full season of cyclocross.
**** - (): Uh, and not focus on the road. Yeah. They usually, by the end of the race, the last hour, they, they, they lose contact with the, with, with, with the, the road is, um, uh, gravel is much more a road race than it will ever be, a cyclocross or a mountain bike. It's not technical at all. Um, and, and yeah, in my opinion, it's, it's, it's for the pure.
**** - (): Road specialists from the, from the spring classic said that the ones who like, uh, party rebel, we're like tour of Flanders, uh, those type of guys. They are the ones who are the real gravel specialists.
[00:11:41] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. I think that makes sense. I think one thing that we've learned in racing gravel over these years is that anything can happen and it's your ability as a rider to deal with unpredictable situations. And to your point as a cyclocross racer. Every lap, there's an unpredictable situation that you have to deal with and you have to deal with nursing your bike and not being too hard on the equipment.
**** - (): And there's certainly no, you know, there's no team car following you very quickly. Although in cyclocross, you can swap
[00:12:09] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Yeah. You can switch bikes two times a lap. Um, and, and you can have it cleaned and everything. So, um, no, that's, that's, I think it makes. It's part of the story why it's, it's so popular because, uh, he lost 10 minutes at the world championships, but he still continued. And it's more like the epic, right?
**** - (): Like you see in, uh, in Paris, uh, it's, it's kind of a survival race. Um, even though you have a lot of bad luck in the beginning, the race is never over. You can still continue. You can still make up and, and, and, uh, close gaps. And so. That feeling of, of, of, of like a real epic race in, in epic circumstances. At this moment, we, we had to ice the world championships in dry, in dry circumstances, but yeah, one day we'll also have them in, uh, in very wet circumstances, like you had, uh, I think unbound was this year in very muddy conditions.
**** - (): So, and that will make it very epic. Uh, but to me it's, it's yeah, if you compare it with European. Cycling it's, it's, it's, it's, it's much more a copy of, uh, what Paris Roubaix is every year.
[00:13:24] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, yeah, I was going to ask you to the extent in which you, you were there and understand the run up when that first world championships event happened in the qualifiers. How are you thinking about the criteria for the course and course construction? Were there some constraints that the UCI put on the event to make it in the mold of what they were expecting?
[00:13:47] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Well, the first year, first of all, um, because of COVID and, and, and yeah. Let's say COVID ended, but, uh, yeah, everybody was still afraid to set up a new event and even the World Championships, uh, beginning of 2022. We had a few candidates, uh, to run the World Championships, but, uh, one after another, they decided, okay, maybe it's too early.
**** - (): Let's skip 2022, but we'll focus on 2023 or 2024. Um, So we found an organizer rather late in Italy, so Filippo Pozzato, the ex pro rider. He did a good job because it was like on a short period. He had to prepare the World Championships, but the World Championships were not the typical gravel race. I know from from this doing this series for sure.
**** - (): Not the typical gravel race you have in the States. It was like a 50 50 road gravel race and even the gravel was like, yeah, it was flat. It was Um, yeah, to me a bit too much of a road race. Um, um, um, but yeah, it was all last minute. I think that the, uh, the organizer was awarded two months prior to the race.
**** - (): Uh, then yeah, the full process of having courses approved, having them checked and then getting the necessary approvals from the different towns. Yeah, it took some time and there was not really. to, to, to, to make an update, um, um, which was done this year, this year. Uh, we had to switch organizer and it was also, uh, only, only two months before the world championships, but the course, which was presented was much better than the first edition, uh, in percentage was more off road, more gravel, but also much more exciting, uh, flats, uh, yeah.
**** - (): Paved sections in between, but also a lot of elevation, um, and a very beautiful course, I think very different from what you have in the States. Um, if, if I see the images and the, and the videos from, from Unbound and the American races, yeah, they are. Even more road racing, uh, on gravel roads, um, yeah, in percentage, much more gravel roads, but it's less technical than what we see as gravel events in mainly Europe, which are, um, I wouldn't say they are not more towards mountain bike for sure or not, but they are, um, not wide open big boulevards where you can ride the truck.
**** - (): Uh, it's always a smaller, uh, Uh, yeah, forest roads, farm roads. Um, it's, it's more technical.
[00:16:38] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think there's a wide diversity of gravel racing in the United States. Obviously, to your point, the Unbound may be on sort of dirt roads
[00:16:48] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Yeah. And that's maybe the image we have from, from American gravel racing.
[00:16:51] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, yeah, no, it's very interesting to hear you say that because if I'm thinking about like what you might see from an unbound or an SVT gravel, that would very much be the takeaway.
**** - (): I would have as well that these are, you know, sort of road racing style open, you know, wide roads that give a lot of opportunity for moving around. Um, but if you dig into the gravel cycling world, there are a lot of events that really push The capabilities of the bikes and really create sections that have a huge impact on the race based on one's technical abilities.
**** - (): So, you know, they might go into single track, they might go into mud, they might have river crossings, all the types of things that would really push both the rider's skill levels and equipment.
[00:17:37] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Well, for, for the UCI, uh, two things, of course, when, when we started up the, the UCI Gravel Series and the Gravel World Championships. Um, one of the first things we decided is, uh, you have a few of, of, of, uh, of very long, uh, endurance races, uh, a month is, uh, 300 kilometers or even more than 200 miles. Um,
[00:18:00] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. 200 miles. Yeah,
[00:18:01] - ():  Erwin Verveken: we decided to, with the UCI gravel world series to have like the typical, um, duration of a road race.
**** - (): So five, six hours. Um, racing, not, not like unmount this, I guess, 10, 11 hours of racing. Uh, and that's what we are. We're not aiming for that. That's, that's like, yeah, a very big endurance race. Uh, our goal is to keep it in between 150 and 200 kilometers. Um, depending a bit on the elevation and on what is available.
**** - (): Um, and then, uh, a second thing is so like single track. It is possible when there's no alternative, so to connect two sections, uh, with a small single track, uh, towards the end of the race. Yeah, it's not preferred, but if there's no other solution, then we allow it. But the big majority should be on wide open gravel roads where we can also ride a car.
**** - (): That's the goal of the UCI Gravel World Series.
[00:19:10] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. I certainly noticed in the, in the race coverage this past year, and certainly commentary from both the men and women on the U S team that the narrowness of the roads. And you hear this refrain, even when road cyclists go over to Europe, it's just another world when you're trying to pack 200 people into these, through these narrow villages.
**** - (): And certainly the other big thing that stood out in some of the video I saw was, Some of the, um, the 180 degree switchbacks on the roads and trails that the riders had to navigate and the, the chaos that ensued around that and how that impact the race.
[00:19:47] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Yeah, well, I'm not sure about the 180 degree turns. Uh, you mean now in the last world championships?
[00:19:55] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. There was one scene that I saw the riders cutting across the, the earliest part of the corner to get around and join the group.
[00:20:04] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Yeah, there were some. Uh, well, it's, it's a famous YouTube video from, from the law at the first half an hour of the, of the gravel world championships in the elite category. Yeah. I don't know. I think it's from an American rider who filmed it with his scope.
[00:20:18] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): yeah. I think it's from Payson McKelvin.
[00:20:21] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Um, yeah, it gives a good idea of the hectic in the start.
**** - (): Uh, and of course, well, our, our, our courses are not fence. They are just marked with science and everybody has a GPS device on his bike. Um, so that's, yeah. I presume it's also the same in the States, so you don't have, uh, uh, tape, uh, to, to, to, to prevent riders from cutting corners. So, um, I think that's, that's the spirit of gravel.
**** - (): So, um, yeah, it's only in the, in the first. 10, 15 k in, uh, uh, in the course. Uh, but next year, because then we are ourselves, the organized, so the company I'm working for Goot, so is, uh, organizing the, the next world championships in Belgium. Um, yeah, it will hardly be impossible to, to cut corners there, uh, in the, in the first.
**** - (): Part of the race and where it's possible. Yeah, we'll probably also try to prevent it Without making too much Yeah It's, it's, it's never the goal to make like a fenced cyclocross or mountain bike course. Um, that's, that's not our goal, but yeah, different type of racing. Uh, I've done, yeah, because I'm, I'm managing the, these, these races.
**** - (): And, um, of course also ex pro rider. So I take my bike to a lot of these events and try to ride them. To get a good impression on the different type of events, uh, if I compare our events, um, uh, which are in the series, there's indeed a lot of different events. Uh, next year we will also, uh, organize the, the Belgian Gravel Championships, uh, which are.
**** - (): Uh, very typical American style and Bond style, uh, gravel racing, which is very uncommon in Belgium. But yeah, in the north, there's like a section where, where we can have those kind of races. Uh, so. There's a bit of a difference, but, but yeah, uh, the good thing about gravel is that, uh, you can have very technical races, um, uh, but, but the majority are on wide open roads, fast, uh, uh, you don't need to be too technical.
**** - (): If you see, um, more rich winning the world championships. Although I think he's very technical as a rider, as a roadie. Uh, but also Jasper Stavun winning the first European Championships. Um, I don't think he's very technical as a roadie. So, uh, yeah, it's, uh, it's something which, which can suit any, any, uh, any road specialist.
[00:23:00] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Gotcha. And when you think about the courses in the men's courses and the women's courses, as I understand it, they differed in distance. Can you talk a little bit about the logic behind that?
[00:23:11] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Well, I know that in, in, in, in the States and also let's say in, in, in general in English speaking countries, it's also the same in Britain and in Australia. There's a, there's a big movement to have women and men having the same distance. If you see it cycling, uh, in history, and then I mean, from 50 years back, and even now, all disciplines, uh, being cyclocross, mountain bike, road, uh, women and men have different distances for the World Championships and World Cups.
**** - (): Uh, you can be, it's worth a discussion. I know that, uh, in, in. The English speaking countries, there's more, uh, a vote to have them equal, but I don't think there's, well, gender equality doesn't mean that they have to have the, the same distance. I think the media attention should be the same and, and the price money should be the same, but, uh, the, the distance, uh, if you have, uh, the women racing over 260, 270 kilometers, the road world championships.
**** - (): It would give a totally different dynamic and it would mean a much more individual race by the end of the race because then it's pure endurance. Well, for the man. Uh, yeah, it's it's another type of race, so I'm not really convinced if they should have, uh, the same distance for men and women. Um,
[00:24:42] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Are you thinking about it in terms of time? Are you shooting for a similar amount of time out there on the bike for
[00:24:48] - ():  Erwin Verveken: no, not even time. Um, we did many surveys amongst the participants after the World Championships, uh, both in Gran Fondo and Gravel. And if you ask, uh, women if they prefer to have the same distance as men, probably Americans and, yeah, Australians, they would go for it. Yeah, the same distance, but it depends also a bit on what riders prefer.
**** - (): Uh, everybody is, is, if you're somebody who has a great endurance, uh, you will pick the same distance as the man. If you're more explosive and you're more a tactic, uh, uh, yeah, a strong sprinter type of rider. You prefer a shorter course. So, but in general, we see that, uh, if we ask men, women directly, our participants, that the majority still prefers a shorter distance for, uh, for women.
**** - (): Um,
[00:25:41] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. I mean, I think it's an interesting debate and I'm certainly not one to opine too strongly one way or the other, but I do imagine that you have more dynamic racing in the shorter distances
[00:25:53] - ():  Erwin Verveken: that's what I'm.
[00:25:54] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): people complaining with me about this.
[00:25:56] - ():  Erwin Verveken: So I, I don't know, women on the road, for instance, the, uh, the road, World Championships now in Glasgow for women. I don't know, but I think there were 150, 160 and men were 260. In general, they're around that distance. But if you have the women also on the 260, well, it will be a pure endurance race.
**** - (): And by the end, they will be, there's a big chance that there will be one. One by one. So, um, and then on the meet, I'm floating can start racing again because she's she's a super strong rider who survives everybody by the end of the race when it's a very hard race. Um, so, yeah, um, it's worth the discussion.
**** - (): But if you ask the riders, I think the majority will still prefer to have a shorter distance for women because it's indeed another dynamic.
[00:26:51] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. When you think about, uh, and I do want to get into the master's element of this cause I think that's fascinating. And for our listeners who are non professional athletes, I think it's a great and interesting opportunity. But one final question at the elite level, how do you determine how many riders an individual country can bring to the event?
[00:27:10] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Well, so the basic goal is that everybody should qualify. But, uh, in order to promote the first editions of the World Championships and, uh, yeah, to also have national teams and the federations involved, in 2022 and also this year, the UCI decided to grant 20 wildcards to every national federation. For riders, um, um, so in the past two years, now 2022, 2023, they could be used by any rider.
**** - (): Uh, so also the Masters and, and, and, and the Age Group riders. Uh, for 2024, it will only be limited for the Elite category. And gradually, it's our goal to limit the number of wildcards. So riders should be really be encouraged to qualify. But on the other hand, first year we had Peter Sagan, we had Mathieu we had, uh, Greg van Auermaat all participating.
**** - (): And without those wildcards, they wouldn't have been there. Uh, Pauline Ferrand Bréveau. This year Vollering, uh, Wout van Aert, uh, well, Wout qualified, but, uh, the other riders, Mohoritch, um, we were really happy with them at the start. So we want to keep a certain amount of, uh, of, of wildcards for the, for the top level riders.
**** - (): And yeah, we'll see from year to year, uh, evaluate after every edition of the World Championships, if we have to stick to, uh, I don't know, maybe 10 wildcards, uh, maximum per country, or more wildcards for the bigger countries, uh, less wildcards for the smaller countries. But this year we also had riders from Guinea Bissau and from Barbados and, uh, yeah, like very exotic countries at the start.
**** - (): Uh, and they wouldn't have been there without these wildcards, so, um. Yeah, I'm still in favor of having them, but maybe limit them a bit more. So the drivers really are encouraged to have to go to a qualifier. Yeah,
[00:29:04] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): And you mentioned that that qualification, it sounds like it's standard across the board. If you finish at a UCI gravel world cup qualifier event in the top 25%, you've punched your tickets to go to the world championships.
[00:29:17] - ():  Erwin Verveken: The only change next year is that, um. And the first two years, qualification was always per age group, but then we saw this year Verde. Yeah. He saw, uh, in the meantime, 42 years old. So he, he then had to qualify in the 40 to 44 age category and Okay. The, the two races he did were, were not the biggest one.
**** - (): I think the, the one in, uh, the two in Spain, he won, were like five, 600 drivers at the start. So then it's still okay to to, to have him in the front. But well, as these events grow bigger and bigger, uh, we decided to also have the elite category as part of the qualifier series. So before every race, you have to choose, okay, I want to go and qualify for the world championships elite or for my age group.
**** - (): Uh, so like a rider being 19 to 34 years old, if he chooses to sign up for the elite category, Of course, with an elite license, then he can only qualify for the elite category at the world championships. If he chooses to qualify or to sign up for the age groups, he can only qualify for his age group. Um, and that's what we decided this year to change.
**** - (): Um, so that the elite category can also have older riders, uh, in their 30s, 35, 40 years old, like Valverde, like, uh, yeah, many of them will retire from road racing and like, uh, Jan Baklans, Nicky Terpstra, uh, yeah, probably also a lot of Americans who are over 35, but still want to race elite at a high level.
**** - (): So, yeah. they didn't get the opportunity to race elite.
[00:30:58] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): you'd, you'd may have mentioned this earlier, but just so I understand on race day are the amateur men lining up behind the elite men and starting kind of alongside them.
[00:31:10] - ():  Erwin Verveken: at the qualifier events, uh, well, they're different options and we give a lot of freedom to the different organizers to set up or the setup of the start can either be man elite in front, followed by women elite. And then with a small interval, the age groups, uh, or we can have many leads followed by men age groups.
**** - (): Let's say until the age of 50 and then the women elite with all with a small interval, but it depends a bit on the size of the field. And yeah, I think next year our biggest event will be over 2000. So then you have to make some. Rules to, to, to make a fair start and a fair reason. Uh, but we still give the opportunity, um, to riders without a license to qualify for the world championships in their age groups.
**** - (): So it's only for the elite category that you need a license. If you want to race, uh, in the age groups, uh, you're 42 years old and you still want to do world championships. So you can go to a qualifier, take part, um, and then qualify for the world championships. And it's only. to sign up for the world championships that you need a year license, so not to qualify.
[00:32:20] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. Super exciting. Let's talk about the 2024 Trek UCI gravel world series calendar. You've expanded now to a total, is it a 26 events
[00:32:31] - ():  Erwin Verveken: well there's uh in the 25 Qualifying for the 2024 World Championships and one was in October, uh, past the World Championships for the 2025 World Championships. So, uh, but yeah, we have been expanding with, uh, a lot of extra races. So if I look at the list, one extra in Austria, one extra in Italy. Um, I'm running off the list here now on my computer.
**** - (): Uh, there's a new race in Kenya. There's a new race, a second year race in Germany, Switzerland, one in Wales in the UK. Um, and then by the end of the season, also a second new one in Spain. Um, and there will most likely be two. Uh, extra ones being added later, uh, which still are struggling with approvals. Uh, so yeah, there's, uh, there's, it's no secret that there's one candidate in Rwanda where the world championships on the road take place next now in 2025.
**** - (): Um, and, and a second one in Switzerland, uh, they will most likely be added, uh, yeah, in the next few weeks.
[00:33:48] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): when you, what does it take for an event to become part of the series and are these events typically events that have run in the past and then embrace the UCI series and come to you and say, yeah, I'd like to be part of it or are they events that happened from the ground up? With the sole intention of being a UCI qualifier.
[00:34:07] - ():  Erwin Verveken: It's it's a mix. Um, we have existing events will have been run as a competitive event before we have, uh, fun events like, uh, leisure events like non competitive events with been switched to a competitive event. We have big organizers who have run professional road racing or Gran Fondo racing, like the race in Switzerland is run by the same team who has the UCI Gran Fondo for many years.
**** - (): Um, yeah, so. New events will have all of a sudden started up, um, the second race in, in, uh, Germany, for instance, has run the motorbike marathon world championships five years ago or six years ago, 2017. Uh, so it's a mix. Yeah. Um,
[00:34:59] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): And then, you know, obviously there's presumably an application process for the event to become part of the series. Do the events then need to take on that same kind of, uh, men will race by themselves. Women will race by themselves. The distance will be in it within certain parameters. Is that what the, how they have to adopt to the UCI landscape?
[00:35:20] - ():  Erwin Verveken: yeah. Well, but as I told, we're not too difficult in these first years. We don't want to, the big criticism we had, uh, especially from, from, uh, from, from the States, uh, in the beginning is, well, you see, I will make it, uh, too much regulations and things like that. Um, well, we decided not to make, uh, any regulation.
**** - (): So the bike is free, of course, no e bike, but, uh, If you want to raise a mountain bike, or a gravel bike, or a road bike, whatever bike you like, the perfect bike that fits best for that course is, is, is, is, is free to use. Uh, distance, well, there's a rule now, I think the minimum distance is 75k and the maximum 200.
**** - (): Um, but for the rest, uh, there's no Regulation on tire width, uh, starting procedure is also quite flexible. Uh, we discuss it with every organizer, but, uh, yeah, we are pretty flexible in, in allowing things.
[00:36:23] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Gotcha. What are the things that, that struck me when I looked at the 2024 calendar? Was we still only have one event here in the United States? Is that intentional? Is it just
[00:36:35] - ():  Erwin Verveken: no, no. Because
[00:36:36] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): for events? And
[00:36:39] - ():  Erwin Verveken: let's say that we would like to have, um, in the, the, the big traditional cycling countries in Europe, two events, like we have now. Two in Belgium, two in Holland, two in Germany, two in Switzerland, two in Italy, two in Spain, uh, only one in France, two in the uk. And then for the big countries like the, the States, Canada or Australia, uh, we can go up to three events.
**** - (): And I've been in very good context with, with potential, uh, uh, yeah. Interested organizers who have started the process of, yeah. Um, yeah, uh, having different online meetings with me, but also of course. On their side, getting the approvals, um, and speaking to their sponsors. And we have been very close with one organizer, um, yeah, to finally become the second qualifier.
**** - (): And I'm sure that in 2025, we will have at least two, probably even three events. Uh, and also in Canada, I'm in touch with a second Canadian event, uh, which is likely to sign. And which I had expected to sign already for 2024. But yeah, the, uh, it's also the same in, in, uh, in Grand Fonda racing. Um, It's, it's, it's more challenging for me to convince, uh, an American organizer to, to join, uh, the series.
**** - (): Um, a part of it is because, well, they, um, there is like, um, let's say, uh, uh, a general criticism in everything which is related to regulations and to federations within the states. That's what I learned from my different contexts. Uh, people don't like to be. To regulate it, although I think we are quite flexible.
**** - (): Um, uh, and, uh, another big thing is in Europe, there is, uh, yeah, for organizing and we're speaking about the financial part of the, of, of, of, of organizing an event is in, in, uh, in the States, there's not such a system of, of government funding. So in Europe, but also in Africa, we have three African events to in Australia, uh, people organizers apply for fundings with the city, the region or an entity from the government, which puts in money to promote events of a high level, but also because they generate a lot of tourism.
**** - (): If I see that this year, the European Championships, we organized ourselves, uh, uh, on the 1st of October. Well, we had 1, 700 riders coming from, I don't know exactly 30 or 35 different countries, but they all stay in the hotel for a few nights because they want to do a record right a few days before they stay after they go and have dinner, they buy a souvenir, they rent a car.
**** - (): So there's a lot of economic return for the region. And that system doesn't really exist in the, in the States, as far as I know, from, from my country.
[00:39:45] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. You know, it's true. I've talked about this on a number of occasions with different event organizers and it's, it is super interesting. Like there are some rural regions that are trying to reinvent themselves where you do get some of that interplay with the local city government and great deal of enthusiasm to bring riders in because having them.
**** - (): Yeah. A thousand people and their families over a weekend is a great economic boom for those cities. And then in other cases, you have the exact opposite mentality, which is we don't want any more people coming here. We don't need athletes to come into our town. You know, particularly I live in the San Francisco Bay area
[00:40:23] - ():  Erwin Verveken: which is really a pity. Um, I think.
[00:40:27] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): very much
[00:40:27] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Sports, sports in general, especially while I'm living in Belgium, which is probably the cycling country together with Italy and France, we have, uh, every little town has his own club and has at least a competitive rider and this, uh, yeah, uh, you have to drive maximum one hour to do a race on Saturday and Sunday, uh, in every discipline.
**** - (): So that's, that's the good thing about, uh, well. living in a traditional cycling country, but also for organizers. Uh, excuse me. Um, so yeah, the, the, the fundings we have are necessary to set up big events and they are live on television. It's part of our culture. They generate, as I told you, a lot of.
**** - (): Economic return, but not only economic return, it's also, yeah, promotion for the region if you have like a very nice, um, yeah, uh, area with, with a beautiful nature. It's a good promotion for, for, for the region to, to generate also other type of tourism. The race we now organized on the 1st of October, which will also fit us as a first, no, the next world championships next year in Belgium.
**** - (): Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a national park. It's a big forest area. It's being promoted now through these kinds of events and the weeks before, but especially the weeks after. The European Championships we organized there. It was full of people, yeah, uh, hiking, uh, um, riding their bikes. And they also come and then, yeah, uh, it generates tourism and tourism means money for the region.
**** - (): And, um, yeah, that's, that's the good thing about, uh, yeah, cycling in, in, in, in Belgium, for instance.
[00:42:24] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, yeah, if I was to sort of read the tea leaves, so to speak about the U. S. gravel cycling scene sentiment around the U. C. I. gravel world championships and the qualifier events, I would say, I. I'm reading a market change this year after the event, we sent some of our best athletes over there, there was good exposure.
**** - (): Obviously we wish that the, the women's race was able to be televised, but I understand what happened there, but seeing the scene and seeing the camaraderie of the U S team, I believe has translated to a sort of a general uplifting of the UCI brand within gravel. And this idea that, you know, the racing is different.
**** - (): It's, it's, it's different and unique in its own way. And the experience is quite powerful, you know, to go to a world level event where you're representing your country, whether it's at an elite level or at the master's level, it's just super exciting. And it's a feeling that compares differently to what it feels like to be at Unbound or SBT Gravel.
**** - (): It's its own unique and special thing that I think more US riders are now aspiring to.
[00:43:38] - ():  Erwin Verveken: No, I'm sure. So I'm not this. Well, uh, the biggest travel event worldwide and a long tradition and it's, it's, but it's still, uh, I guess a 90 or 95 percent based American event. Participants, uh, they come from many different countries, but The big majority is still American. If you're at the World Championships, you're, first of all, dressed in your national kit, which is fairly prestigious, it's very, yeah.
**** - (): Riders are proud, and especially Americans are proud to wear their national colors. Uh, they ride in a team, they travel towards an event, uh, and then you're next shoulder to shoulder at the start grid, next to a British rider, an Italian, a Slovenian, a Belgian, uh, which creates a special atmosphere. Um, and yeah, the first year there was a lot of criticism on the course.
**** - (): Um, I agree for a part of it. I was, I wasn't the best course. I was not also, also not a hundred percent convinced on the course this year. It was pure promotion for gravel. Uh, and, and The fact that, uh, yeah, also your best gravel rider, Keegan Swanson, was there. Yeah, it was also a good promotion for our world championships.
**** - (): But, yeah, in the end, I'm sure that let him develop a bit longer in an international gravel scene. He'll probably, yeah, he can win the world championships for sure. And then he would be a great ambassador, uh, wearing the, the, the, the, the, the, the rainbow jersey also in the state. So, and our biggest goal is to still, because we have been in talks with USA Cycling to bring the, the World Championships, uh, to, to the States.
**** - (): And there were some very interested, uh, organizers, uh, we were very close to a deal, uh, in the first year, but unfortunately, well, then, uh, they were a bit hesitating and, and decided to skip. For the next few years, but then given the very big explosion of gravel racing in Europe, all of a sudden, yeah, it was awarded until now, uh, 20, 28.
**** - (): Uh, so it's, uh, uh, yeah, they missed an opportunity. Um, Yeah.
[00:45:51] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Have you, so we know that 2024 will be in Belgium. Have you announced where the roadmap goes in the subsequent years?
[00:45:59] - ():  Erwin Verveken: 2025 is France, Nice. So the South of France, uh, 2026 is, is, uh, the seven event in Western Australia. Uh, which is now already part of the, of the, of the UCR gravel. We'll see is 2027 is again, the combined world championships of the UCR, which now took place in Glasgow this past August, and they will then also have gravel.
**** - (): Which is again in France, so the Haut Savoie region, which is the Alps. It's, uh, if you see the mountain stages of the Tour de France, so that area, there will be a lot of climbing. Um, that's 2027, and then 2028 is Alula in Saudi Arabia. Uh, which is a big sports city, and they have a big and huge budget, uh, to promote cycling, and especially gravel is one of their key.
**** - (): So, um, and then 2029, I know there's a lot of interest. Um, um, and, uh, yeah, hopefully one day I'm sure that if we have a very good candidate in the States, uh, the UCI would be very happy to, to, to have the world championships awarded to, to the States, uh, uh, because, well, in the end, the history of gravel racing is, is, is in, in the U S Midwestern.
[00:47:18] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Erwin, thank you so much for the time. I appreciate learning more about UCI's approach and everything you're doing to promote the sport. Very much appreciate it.
[00:47:28] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Well, it's a pleasure. It's, uh, also it was nice talking to an American audience. Uh, uh, so, uh, yeah, happy to, to explain what we are doing and what our plans are for the future years.
[00:47:42] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Amazing. Thanks again.
[00:47:44] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Thank you.

Billy Sinkford, Vice President of Echos Communications, discusses the genesis of the MADE show and its impact on the handmade bike community. He shares his experience as a former bike messenger and how it led him to work in the urban cycling industry. Billy also highlights the importance of brand representation and storytelling in the cycling industry. He provides insights into the success of the first MADE show and gives a preview of what to expect in the upcoming shows in Portland and Melbourne. Don't miss this exciting conversation about the future of the handmade bike community.

Episode Sponsor: AG1

MADE Bicycle Show 

Support the Podcast

Join The Ridership 

Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:

[00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport

I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist.

[00:00:29] Craig Dalton (host): This week on the show. I welcome Billy. Sinford from the maid bicycle show in Portland, Oregon. You may recall if you're a listener from last year that I attended the show. In 2023 and had dozens of interviews with fantastic frame builders from around the country. I super enjoyed the show, the experience, the overall vibe of the show.

So I was thrilled to get some communication from echos communications that the show is on. Again for 2024, I wanted to get a little bit of the backstory and inspiration for the show. And learn some secrets about the upcoming show in 2024. Little did I know at the end of this episode, I was going to learn about yet another exciting new development. I'll leave you with that.

And we'll wait till the end, until we find out that secret from Billy. But before we get started, I do need to thank this week. Sponsor a G one. Taking care of your health. Isn't always easy, but it should at least be simple. That's why for me, for the last decade, I've been drinking age one every day, no exceptions.

It's just one scoop mixed in water once a day, every day. And it makes me feel energized and ready to take on the day. That's because each serving of AIG one delivers my daily dose of vitamins minerals and pre and probiotics and more, it's a powerful, healthy habit that also is powerfully simple.

Okay, let me go back a decade and explain why. became an essential part of my daily routine. I come to recognize that nutritionally, I just wasn't covering my bases with my diets. I was often cutting corners and just not getting the nutrients and vitamins I was looking for. I started thinking about taking a multivitamin or multiple multivitamins. And that didn't drive with me as well.

I knew I wasn't going to be able to maintain consistency. Without something simple in my life. But with ag one, I discovered that it's a simple powder that's mixed with water. Can do it very quickly. And it has everything and more than I was looking for. So I introduced into my life and I haven't gone back. Over a decade, which is pretty incredible for a product like this.

So if there's one product I had to recommend to elevate your health that's ag one. And that's why I've partnered with them for so long. I think they've been part of the show for over three years now. So, if you want to take ownership of your health, start with a G one. Tri AIG one and get a free one-year supply of vitamin D plus K2. And five free AIG one travel packs with your first purchase. Exclusively at drink, AIG one.com/the gravel ride.

That's drink AIG one.com/the gravel ride to check it out today. Without behind us, let's jump right into my conversation with Billy.

[00:03:24] Craig Dalton (host): Billy, welcome to the show.

[00:03:25] Billy Sinkford: Thank you for having me, Craig. It's a pleasure to be here.

[00:03:29] Craig Dalton (host): I know it's a busy week for you guys at MADE, so I appreciate you making the time and I'm excited to kind of just talk about the show. I did a bunch of episodes and Certainly had a bunch of conversations with frame builders during my visit to made in 2023.

So I'm excited to just talk about the plans for 2024, but to set the stage for the conversation, we always like to kind of roll back a little bit and just understand, how did you develop a passion for the bike? Did you grow up riding? So why don't you start off by just letting us know where you grew up and how you discovered the bike and how that journey ultimately took you to kind of being in the industry as a professional.

[00:04:10] Billy Sinkford: Well, first off, thanks for coming to MAID in 2023. It was awesome to have you and love the videos that you put out surrounding it. And we're stoked for 2024. We'll get, we'll get there though. I was a bike messenger in Boston in the late 90s and early 2000s. Uh, that was my first job working on the bike, uh, all day, uh, rain or snow, uh, in Boston, and did that, uh, for quite some time.

Eventually ended up moving to San Francisco, uh, where I also was a, a bike messenger after a brief stint, uh, in divinity school, uh, which I decided was not, not for me. And from there, I started working with chrome industries and started working in kind of the urban cycling field of things. And, you know, for lack of a better term, I weaseled and worked my way into a job at chrome and.

Um, my, the director of marketing at Chrome, Rob Reedy, who is my business partner at Echos. He's the CEO of Echos and I'm the VP, uh, gave me a chance and gave me a job and we worked together for years over at Chrome and eventually, uh, founded Echos Communications, which is a PR and marketing firm for, Active outdoors, uh, with a huge focus on cycling and I am fortunate enough to be the vice president of that and manage, uh, manage our cycling stuff that echoes communications.

So that, that's

[00:05:47] Craig Dalton (host): how I got there. I'm curious if, if you go back to those days as a courier, my experience with the courier community there, there were certainly some couriers who were bike racers, bike lovers, lovers of all things, bikes, and they discovered curry being a courier as a vocation that allowed them to, you know, work on their bike and stay fit.

I've also heard from many of those same. Bike racer couriers that it's a horrible way to train because it's so hard on your body. So I'm just curious, were you, you know, part of that courier culture and the bike was a work mechanism and you fell in love with that, you know, the fixie kind of culture, or was there another thread of your passion for the bike that was mountain biking or road racing at the time?

[00:06:35] Billy Sinkford: When I was in Boston, it was definitely about the culture and community, and the bike was just the tool that allowed for all of that to happen. When I moved out to San Francisco, the company that I worked for, Godspeed Courier, we had a race team. I was partially in charge of all the sponsorships and helped out a lot of the company.

Definitely, uh, started wearing spandex and shaving our legs and going and doing local crits. And at that time road races, it was all road, uh, for me back then in the San Francisco Bay area and competed at all kinds of road races, uh, underneath the Godspeed courier banner. But I was, uh, I was a heavy dude.

I still am a, I'm a big guy and I never, uh, I went out and just. Beat the crap out of everybody for the first 20 miles and then basically did an 80 mile bike ride by myself after the rest of the race, but I absolutely loved it. And it was a different kind of community and that definitely carried over.

And, you know, I certainly by no means of. Kept up with it or pinned a number in a long time. I did last year for a minute, but, uh, definitely still enjoy being sometimes at the pointy end of the spear. Um, but yeah, messengering definitely brought me into that race culture. And then that carried over into my time in the industry, without a doubt.

[00:07:55] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, obviously like Chrome had its parts of his origin from that culture and that vibe, that commuter, worker, the, you know, the well constructed bags and later the shoes and clothing that they brought into the mix as you kind of represented them and were kind of earning your chops on the business side of the bike industry.

What were you learning in that time that you kind of took forward about how brands need to be represented to cyclists in order to grow and be relevant?

[00:08:28] Billy Sinkford: Working in the urban cycling side of things first was, was really interesting and I think it relates to stuff in the handmade market. I think it relates to cycling as a whole because we, and sometimes think of ourselves as this huge entity, right?

In reality, cycling is a niche sport and a niche hobby. Uh, so looking at it through that lens and then knowing that urban cycling was a niche within. That niche, uh, we called it don't Timbuktu it back in the day Timbuktu started stopping selling messenger bags and started selling travel luggage and briefcases for a, for a brief minute.

And at Chrome, we just made sure we didn't Timbuktu it. And we were trying to stay. With the core sponsoring messenger races, making sure that we're not only sponsored them, but we're actively present at the races and engaging with the community and bringing a cool vibe and having a good time. And that I think has carried over into everything that we've done at echoes and hopefully what we've brought to, uh, the cycling community at large.

And that's the present. Be there and and be a part of the community.

[00:09:42] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, I think there's so much to obviously the storytelling of these brands that is so critical and how they resonate with fans and consumers of these products

[00:09:55] Billy Sinkford: and it's really easy to lose it quite quickly. So, you know, having a good mission statement, understanding what your brand is, and actually standing by that and standing behind it, standing behind the community that you're, you're making products for, and hopefully.

An active part of that community. Do those, you're, you're going to be on the side of right. Yeah, you

[00:10:17] Craig Dalton (host): mentioned some of the work you do at echoes and just to set the stage for when we later talk about the maid show. Can you talk about some of the clients you've had the privilege of working with over the years?

And then we'll get into what was the genesis behind the idea for

[00:10:34] Billy Sinkford: made? Sure. We have had the privilege and pleasure and honest. I'd say honor of working with a lot of really amazing brands and folks within those brands. We started definitely on the urban cycling tip, but with that, we also, you know, feedback sports and, and mission workshop where our two first clients as an agency.

Uh, we launched and ran the Levi's Commuter Program, uh, for the first three years of doing that and did all of the global or national events rather, uh, bike shops and community building stuff around that. And that was super fun and and rad to, to work along the Levi's, uh, Levi's crew and their team.

Blackburn. Uh, we've worked with Greg Lamond. Uh, currently we've got an awesome, I guess, what's most relevant to the handmade community. Mosaic cycles, Argonaut cycles, Lowe, uh, we're currently, uh, and have been for quite some time working with Moots, Paul Components, Paul's a dear friend of mine, and we worked with him for several years, Abby Bike Tools, so everything, uh, we brought together.

Bosch to market here in the United States a couple months before Shimano got got into the e bike game here Uh worked with a ton of e bike brands So companies large and small we are just started working with Campagnolo, uh, which is phenomenal and we're really thrilled about that we've had the pleasure of working with over 100 bike brands and i've gotten to Floyd's of Leadville and Floyd Landis, dear friend, and we managed all of the, uh, PR and some of the marketing for all of his CBD stuff and, uh, and his Floyd's 5 cannabis as well.

So, gotten to work alongside people that I idolized when I was a messenger and had them become not only business associates, but folks that I call friends. Um, so it's been, it's been a wild journey and, uh, and we're still, we're still, I think, just getting started.

[00:12:36] Craig Dalton (host): Amazing. We were talking a little bit offline about the North American Handmade Bike Show, and it sounds like you've had a relationship, understandably so, with the brands you tended to represent with that show for, for many years.

Can you just talk about kind of your memories of that show and the place it kind of held in the industry

[00:12:56] Billy Sinkford: for you? Oh, I loved nabs. Absolutely loved it. Uh, used to go just as a, you know, marketing and PR guy for the brands that we worked with. Uh, so always had 5 or 6 builders or brands, uh, on the show floor that we were working with.

Uh, we did, uh, for a brief period of time for a little under 2 years, actually manage all the PR for the show itself when it was in Salt Lake City. Uh, obviously the show is not around anymore and, uh, Don and I. I've had a tumultuous relationship throughout the last, uh, 15 years for sure. Um, but. What Don did on the North American Handmade Bike Show, I think was phenomenal for the builder community and nothing that we're doing, I think, would be possible without the groundwork that went into that.

Both from Don, so kudos to him, and then also the builder community for showing up and being present. You know, being willing to put their energy and effort into something that has turned out to be really, really great or for the builder community. So I think the show was great. It was sad to see it go, but it also gave us the opportunity to start made, which is something that 10.

I mean, it's been 10 years plus, since we've been kind of talking about potentially. Helping put together a different version of a handmade bike show, a more modern version of it. And with Navs no longer taking place, the builder community asked us if we would step up to the plate and make it happen. We were fortunate enough to be able to.

To, to do that, so it's been, it's been pretty cool.

[00:14:39] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, you know, obviously, like, with NABS going away, there was this pent up demand and enthusiasm for the builders to get together. To your point, NABS was just such a great gathering of such a diverse group of artisan frame builders that was so different than any other bicycle show that was around at the time.

When you started to see, like, NABS is not there. We are seeing this opportunity. We're going to take this mantle. It seems like it would be a daunting challenge to go from that idea to actually producing made. What was the decision making process? What did that look like for you? Or did you ask yourself what?

If we can just get 20 brands to commit early, I feel like there's enough momentum that we can do this. I'm just curious to get into your, your mind and your colleagues minds about when was the go, no go decision and what was that process like?

[00:15:38] Billy Sinkford: Well, COVID, we had wanted to do this before COVID. Luckily, we did not pull the trigger on, uh, any form of trade show prior to that, because that would have definitely changed things.

Uh, You know, nobody could travel. Nobody would have been able to show up. Uh, the community support, uh, my partner, Rob and I, uh, spoke to a bunch of builders, spoke to a bunch of brands, uh, brands that support the builder community. So Chris Kang specifically being 1 of them who we also we do, uh, manage their PR and everybody.

One after one, people said, yes, please do this. And yes, we'll help support it. And there weren't any nose and we just kept hearing. Yes. So we started looking at it from a logistic standpoint and realize that that we could pull this off and that it could be awesome. Originally, it was supposed to be entirely outside because of the pandemic.

And we didn't know. What that was going to look like and we kind of wanted to safeguard the show and there's a very, very brief window in Portland where the weather is fantastic. Uh, and we, we've got it right now or made it was. Wildly unseasonably hot during the, uh, the first year of the show, but, uh, the venue that we found is phenomenal, uh, and old abandoned shipyard, uh, I mean, you, you saw it yourself.

It's, it's perfect for the handmade, uh, market probably wouldn't work for. A bike show where track and specialized and giant wanted to show up and do their things. But for those that are actually working with their hands and, you know, making metal more metal, uh, super cool environment, uh, for them to be in and the venue lined up and after that, you know, that's it.

I won't say that all the pieces magically fell together. There was a lot of hard work from the entire team that made behind the scenes, but, uh, it came together and it, you know, hard work and then the support of the builder community, uh, really brought it all together and year one was fantastic. I mean, I know you didn't get to go for the consumer days, but we very purposefully had time so that you were able to be there and spend time creating content and talking with builders and the.

The builder community hadn't been together in, in years because of the pandemic and the lack of nabs even before that. So we carved out a little bit of extra time for that and that was super fun and got to take 200 builders, media and industry people and my favorite ride through Forest Park, uh, which was phenomenal.

So it wasn't just a show itself. I think it was the entire experience of being in Portland together and it was really cool.

[00:18:25] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, absolutely. We got the food trucks in the back parking lot. Everything was just a lot of fun and I totally agree. It was, you know, nobody had to feel awkward about the style of booth they created or what they were bringing because it wasn't this super polished, super dome of convention centers or anything like that that we saw at Interbike.

It was really, it felt very native to the handmade bicycle community for

[00:18:51] Billy Sinkford: sure. And I think this year, you know, a lot of the, I would say 90 percent of the exhibitors, you know, we made a few videos, we, folks understood what they were walking into, to an extent. But it's one thing to see it online and read about it.

It's another thing to actually be in the venue. And now, most of the exhibitors are coming back for, for year two, and they all know what things look like. So I think it'll be really cool to see how people take the space. And make their little, their portion of it their own and work with it. So, I think year one was rad and there were some folks that had some killer, killer booth designs that you would never, ever in your wildest dreams see at Eurobike or Interbike or Sea Otter.

Um, and I think it worked out great that we weren't entirely outside because looking at some Consumer facing shows, which are all awesome, but it's a sea of 10 by 10 and 10 by 20 pop up tents, and we encourage people to bring tents so they've got their branding, but some of the cooler booths were, you know, handmade from wood that people brought with them, and it was super neat to see not only the folks showing, It's amazing work that they're doing, uh, but then also, you know, building a booth out that reflects that was, was

[00:20:04] Craig Dalton (host): really unique.

A hundred percent. It's just sort of, you know, everybody in the handmade community is so creative and just to allow them to have that freedom to develop their own displays. Super cool to see. And super fun for me to see some of the frame builders that I hadn't seen in a while, but also like a whole, probably 30 percent of them I'd never heard of before.

And it was just great. Having that opportunity to get their point of view to see their manufacturing techniques to see how, you know, they're taking, you know, in the instance of maybe frameworks taking aerospace tooling and machines that aren't always available to other artisans and using that because they have access to it to create just kind of a unique.

Process for creating a bike. Super fascinating to talk to guys like that. There

[00:20:53] Billy Sinkford: were, I have been, because we've been extremely deep and the handmade community for a long time, and I'm fortunate to call a lot of these folks, my friends, and prior to putting on made, I really thought that I had a pretty good grasp of what was going on in the handmade community and who was who.

And one of the biggest things that we did with the show was offering subsidized space. Making sure that bike flights was helping with discounted shipping, uh, there was not like a large host hotel that people felt they needed to stay at. So the show became really accessible and a lot of the younger builders and builders that did not show up at nabs came and exhibited, uh, made.

Also, some of the, the legends, my generation, not, not to totally date myself, but they're not spring chickens anymore. And some of them are hanging up the torch, uh, and, or don't want to stand on their feet for, for three days. Um, they've, they've passed that. So having a lot of the younger builders and new builders at the show and not having the new builder row be In the absolute back of the hall, like it was at NABs, I made sure we were dispersing, you know.

That you, a new builder was directly next to an established builder, and unless you're super deep in the industry, there was no way to tell the difference. You walked up to pretty much anybody exhibiting, and you were there to hear their story and not, uh, I don't know. It was really, it was cool. And I had to not, I did not spend a lot of time looking at the bikes during the show, which was really, really hard.

I love taking photographs. I spent a lot of time. Documenting bikes in my free time, and I purposefully didn't bring a camera to the show and tried not to ogle the work during the show. Late, late at night after everybody had gone home, that's when I did it. But, uh, it was just phenomenal craftsmanship throughout the entire haul.

It was awesome.

[00:23:04] Craig Dalton (host): I was there for obviously the media day and partway into the, the consumer day started, I think, around noon on the Friday and I was there till about two. So I just started to get the first wave of consumers. What was that like, you know, midday Saturday or whenever peak traffic was, if you were there as a consumer,

[00:23:25] Billy Sinkford: there were a couple of minutes where we were, we were pushing the limits of what that all could do for sure.

Uh, we have far more people than we expected. Uh, It was awesome. I mean, just so full, uh, unfortunately, extremely hot, and we had fans running like crazy and, uh, ran out to get every little bit of water that we could. Unfortunately, there were forest fires, uh, in other parts of Oregon and Washington, and all the water trucks and everything that we had kind of helped get together was unavailable.

Um, but we made it work. Uh, there were A couple thousand consumers in that hall on Saturday. We had over 5, 000 people come through between when it opened to the public on Friday and when we closed the doors for tear down, uh, on Sunday. So for year one, that was unbelievable, but the energy was super high and people were there.

They were talking with builders, looking at bikes. Uh, it was, it was really cool to watch. It was fun to have a quiet moment where. Media industry folks, we all got to kind of hug and high five and, and then it was when we opened the gates on Friday, it was, uh, it's a whole, whole nother, it was almost two shows in one,

[00:24:39] Craig Dalton (host): quite frankly.

Yeah, certainly a three day grind for those builders to. Talk to everybody and keep their energy high.

[00:24:49] Billy Sinkford: And we're, we're actually changing the format of the show this year. So we had a full day and a half that was for media and industry to kind of catch up and we did a poll of all the builders and brands after the show, and it was honestly split about 50 50 as to whether or not people wanted that extra time.

Or we would do just a half day of media hours before we opened to the public. For the second year of the show, we're going to. Give it a shot the other way and do, uh, Friday morning will be just media and industry and then again, we'll open to the public and do Saturday and Sunday, but that will make the show shorter and for a lot of these builders, regardless of what size or scale operation they are every day that they're not.

At the shop, that's a bike that's not going out to the customer, and this is not a large frame, a large bicycle company, for that matter, where it's happening, no matter whether the director of marketing is on the floor, like you're there talking to the builder, and that person is not making a frame for a customer, so we're trying to be cognizant.

Excuse me, cognizant of that and do everything that we're going to do, but keep it a little bit shorter so that they can get back to the shop and make sure that they're doing what they need to do for their customers.

[00:26:06] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Do you have a sense on the consumer side in terms of where people were traveling in from if they were obviously Portland's host to such a great community?

I'm sure there was tons of Portland locals who could drive in and enjoy the show. It was a first year show, but did you get a sense that people were flying in to

[00:26:24] Billy Sinkford: experience this? From the moment we announced that we had folks from all over the world that said that they were coming. There were people from Japan, Australia, uh, Europe coming from all over a lot of folks from the East Coast.

I think. California, Portland, I mean, we're dominant without a doubt because it's very easy for them to travel or much easier for them to travel to the show. But some of the first emails that we got after announcing the show were from fans of custom bikes and people that own custom bikes that wanted to come and they were going to make this their vacation from Japan, Australia.

And it was. Really rad to have this be a global show, not only reflected in the builders that were there because we also had builders from all over the world. This was not just Portland and California builders. We had folks from the east coast and uh, from all over the place. And this year for 2024, uh, the roster of builders and brands that are attending reflects that even more deeply.

Folks all coming back and then new folks coming from Australia and we've got folks coming from the west or east coast rather, that came in. Kind of peep the show a little bit to make sure that it was something that they wanted to come to and now, uh, now they're, they're coming out for year two and, and are going to be part of the show.

[00:27:42] Craig Dalton (host): That's a good segue into anything you'd want to highlight for year two. Any changes? Are there going to be more, more booths, more people? What, what can we expect in 2024?

[00:27:53] Billy Sinkford: Uh, more explosions, more people, hopefully no explosions. Uh, uh, I think we've got certainly more builders, more brands. We had to extend the floor plan.

So there's going to be an outdoor area as well as the indoor area this year. More food carts, more coffee. We'll still have the beer garden over there. And we're going to make sure to pop a little shade on top of that so that people can sit out there, even if it is a little bit hot. Uh, but I think there just are gonna be a variety of builders from even farther, uh, across the world.

And I'm, the coolest thing that I've seen is we made it a big point to have subsidized space and to invite builders from all over the place and to make sure that if they needed help financially. That we could still have them at the show. We wanted to make sure that the builder community was represented as a whole.

And there are builders that showed up and took those subsidized spaces that are now getting 10 by 20s at the show. Uh, that are saying that it was so amazing that they want to come back and have an even larger presence. So that to me was the coolest part is the show and the model works there. You know.

That, that really warmed my heart quite a bit to see that happen in several instances.

[00:29:12] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, that says a lot. Tell us the dates of the Portland, Oregon show and where people can find out more information about it.

[00:29:20] Billy Sinkford: Uh, yeah. Made. bike is our website. You don't need a dot com. We've got dot bike. So just made.

bike and we will. Uh, make a lot of noise when we start selling, uh, consumer facing tickets for the show. Uh, the floor plan is ostensibly sold out and I still have a bit more of the wait list, uh, to work through. So, uh, if you're interested in, uh, being a part of the show, definitely get in touch sooner rather than later so we can see what we can do.

Uh, but it'll be this summer, uh, August 23rd through 25th in Portland, Oregon at Zydell Yards, which is right on the Portland waterfront just outside of downtown. Uh, and you can find us on Instagram at made. bike as well. And is

[00:30:06] Craig Dalton (host): there a risk that consumer tickets may sell out? Do people need to get on a mailing list or become aware pretty early in your

[00:30:13] Billy Sinkford: process?

Uh, it certainly can't hurt. Uh, we do have fire marshal limits that we're working within, uh, but I think we can very easily accommodate double the number of, uh, consumers that we have, uh, last year or so. We're hoping that people buy them in advance one because then it's less paper. It's a lot easier and we're able to get people through quicker, but we have not announced when we're going to start selling tickets to the public yet.

We'll wait a little bit. Probably as the snow and rains start to start to thaw and stop falling here. We'll start thinking about it.

[00:30:47] Craig Dalton (host): That makes sense. Well, everybody go over to made that bike and definitely get it on your radar for next year is a phenomenal fun show. So many beautiful bikes out there.

And for those of you in an entirely different part of the world. I think we've got some breaking news. We can talk about now. Billy about another

[00:31:05] Billy Sinkford: made show. Yeah, so this year MADE is expanding our footprint a little bit, and we are headed to Australia. Actually, we're headed to Australia before the main MADE show here in the United States.

And it's going to be held in Melbourne. We've got a wonderful director of show, Andy White from Fixo, who is a longstanding friend of mine personally and of the agency as a whole. We've worked with him on a number of projects throughout the year, and he is extremely dedicated to documenting and being a part of the handmade culture in Australia.

And we've already got commitments from an interest from Bomb Prova, Partington Wheels, the Lost Workshop, Delo Craft, and many, many more. And that is gonna be taking place June 28th and 29th, uh, at, uh, Darin, uh, verum, uh, just outside of Melbourne. And that also is coinciding with, uh, Andy's, uh, LAR. He has a large event called the the Melbourne.

Uh, which takes place on the cobblestones, uh, in, in Melbourne, which I've never personally got a chance to, to witness. I've only witnessed it, uh, via the magic of the internet and I'm looking forward to going over and being a part of that event and then, uh, being present, uh, checking out the builder community in Australia.

[00:32:33] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, that's super exciting. I'll be curious to see if it's drawing builders from other parts of Asia, um, into that show and what a fascinating view you'll have to kind of go over and see that community and how it differs and how it's similar to what we have here in North America.

[00:32:54] Billy Sinkford: I think there's some things that are universal to a degree, but.

Every country is different. Uh, every builder is doing things differently. So, we're really looking forward to going over and hearing all the stories and seeing the work. I do think that there will be a larger draw. I think that. The USA show will always be the largest made show, uh, just because we're able to draw from, I think that we've got an awful lot of media here.

We've got a really captive audience, uh, but Australia is quite far away as I am soon to find out on that plane ride. I've heard from people. Uh, so I think there are a lot of, a lot of builders that, you know, having a maid in Australia will give them a chance to get global exposure and connect with media and consumers in a way.

Uh, That they haven't before and maybe there are some builders here from the United States that in 2025 decide that they're going to do both or maybe a builder here in the United States has already got great relationships with their customer base and the shops that they work with, uh, here and they want to go dip their toes into another country and see what's going on over there.

And I think this will, this will give builders an opportunity to get even more exposure for

[00:34:10] Craig Dalton (host): the work that they're doing. Yeah, it's super exciting and congratulations on the launch of that event. I can't wait to hear all about it. I can't wait to see you in Portland again this summer. Definitely one of my favorite shows that I attended as a podcaster and just overall enthusiast.

So thanks for all your energy, Billy, you put into the industry as a whole and into the made show.

[00:34:33] Billy Sinkford: It is my pleasure. Uh, we're really looking forward to MADE this year, uh, beyond looking forward to it. We're, we're thrilled. So it's hard to, hard to keep the excitement contained some days. I get to talk with so many cool people all the time.

And it's going to be a rad year for MADE and a rad year for the handmade world as a whole. And thank you for taking the time to, to chat with me, Craig. Of course. My

[00:34:55] Craig Dalton (host): pleasure. Cheers. Cheers.

That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. Big, thanks to Billy for coming onto the show. Super excited about made 20, 24 in Portland and super excited for those of you down under in Australia. Perhaps my cousin Teebo to enjoy the made Australia experience in 2024. Also big, thanks to our friends at AIG one.

Remember, check out, drink Agee. Dot com slash the gravel ride for those free travel packs and free supply of vitamin D plus K2. I hope you're doing well in 2024. And until next time. Here's to finding some dirt under your wheels.

​

Laura Wisner joins the podcast to discuss Kowtown Gravel, a gravel cycling event that takes place in Kremmling, Colorado. She shares her background in cycling and how she found her way to gravel cycling. Laura talks about her connection to Kremmling and the beautiful gravel roads in the area. She describes the different terrains and challenges that riders can expect on the Kowtown Gravel course. Laura also discusses the spirit of the event and how it is a fundraiser for the community gym in Kremmling. She invites cyclists to come and experience the unique gravel roads and welcoming community of Kowtown Gravel.

Key Takeaways: - Kowtown Gravel is a gravel cycling event that takes place in Kremmling, Colorado. - The event offers three course lengths: the Bull (90 miles), the Cow (60 miles), and the Calf (35 miles). - The course features a mix of smooth gravel roads, chunkier sections, and climbs. - Kowtown Gravel is a fundraiser for the community gym floor in Kremmling. - The event welcomes both competitive riders and those who want to enjoy a scenic ride.

Kowtown Gravel Website

Episode Sponsor: Dynamic Cyclist (code TheGravelRide for 15% off)

Support the Podcast

Join The Ridership 

Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:

[00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport

I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist.

[00:00:26] Craig Dalton (host): This week on the podcast. We welcome Laura Wizner to the show to talk about cow town, gravel Cowtown gravel is a Colorado event happening on July 6th, 2024 in Kremmling, Colorado. Kremmling as a town you might've been through on your way to Steamboat Springs, but it's a town. The race organizers want you to remember as the gravel is fantastic as are the views. Laura's come on to talk to us about all you can expect from Cowtown, gravel, and an interesting story about how she became familiar with crumbling in the first place. I hope you enjoy this episode.

Before we jump in, I did need to thank this week. Sponsor, dynamic cyclist. Dynamic cyclist has been producing, cycling, specific stretching and strengthening routines for many years. Now. They've got a vast library of content, both focused on you as a general cyclist, but also many different programs based on specific areas of weakness. It's during this period every year in the winter that I start thinking about how limiting my personal low back problems have made my cycling.

So I love to dig into the dynamic cyclist. Low back routine six week program, just focusing on getting those stretches needed, to get deep into everything related to my hip flexors and lower back. It's a great reminder that stretching only takes a short amount of time for having a huge impact. All their videos are no longer than 15 minutes.

So none of us has any excuses not to squeeze them into our winter routines to get us prepped for this season. I say that, and I'm not going to lie. I miss a day or two here or there, but it's on my mind, frankly, constantly this idea that stretching is probably one of the most important things I can do to set myself up for success in 2024.

So go on over to dynamic cyclists.com. They've got a seven day free trial. So it's easy to see if, if it's something that you would like, they're also offering our listeners a 15% off discount on any of their programs. Which include either monthly or annual billing. So it's pretty flexible. If you're someone who just wants to do some routines in the winter, for example, anyway, head on over to dynamics, cyclists.com.

Use the coupon code, the gravel ride, or follow the link in the show notes to get directly over there. With that business behind us, let's jump right into my conversation with Laura.

[00:03:01] Craig Dalton: Laura, welcome to the show.

[00:03:02] Laura Wisner: I'm so glad that you have me here. Thank you.

[00:03:05] Craig Dalton: Where are you sitting today?

[00:03:07] Laura Wisner: I am based in Boulder,

[00:03:08] Craig Dalton: Colorado. Okay, and I'm excited to get you on to talk about Cowtown Gravel, which is not in Boulder, Colorado. So why don't you just set the stage by telling us where Cowtown Gravel takes place, and why don't you drop the, the month it takes place as well.

[00:03:24] Laura Wisner: Okay, so Cowtown Gravel is in Kremling, Colorado. Um, it's going to take place for the second time on July 6, 2024. And Kremling, for those who have been to Steamboat, if you are coming from the Front Range Denver area, and you get a high 70, you go, um, north, we are the crook in the road in between Silverthorne and Steamboat Springs.

Um, so Kremling is that, that little town that everybody has to go through, but may not have ever stopped there.

[00:04:02] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I think as we discovered offline on my way to steamboat gravel, I definitely went through Kremling. I lived in Boulder, and if you had asked me to point to it on a map prior to this conversation, I wouldn't have been able to do it.

But it's clear from my driving through that area, it's absolutely a beautiful part of the state. So we'll get into why and how the event got started. But first, let's just learn a little bit more about you and how you found your way to cycling and gravel cycling specifically.

[00:04:31] Laura Wisner: Yeah, well, I mean, old, old school is Anybody who grew up in upper Midwest gravel road when they were kids, because not all roads were, um, paved back then.

So, I mean, I started as a kid, just getting on my bike when you're up at our, um, vacation cottage and just take off for hours and hours on a gravel road, you know, no cell phones, parents have no idea where I was, um, no helmet, probably riding in cutoff jeans or something like that. But, um, you know, those are the, the good old days and then as I became an adult and got into, um, riding proper, uh, you know, got into road riding, mountain biking, cyclocross, and, um, the blessing of living in Boulder County is that we have these amazing gravel roads and, you know, people ask, well, why are you riding gravel?

And I liken it to, if you live along one of the coasts, You learn to surf because it's right there and you should take advantage of it. So living here in Boulder County, it's crazy not to have a gravel bike or at least, you know, change out your wheels so you can get on our back roads and just go for miles and miles and hours and hours.

So

[00:05:50] Craig Dalton: yeah, I'm thinking back to which probably my first quote unquote gravel event was Boulder Rue Bay. In the early 90s when I lived in Boulder, and I certainly rode that on 23 C road tires. There's no doubt about it in my mind. Yeah, and

[00:06:07] Laura Wisner: with my, my cycling friends and club, you know, we would, you know, even 10 years ago, we, a lot of us were just riding on gravel roads with, you know, road tires, um, and that was okay because they're, they're so smooth around here.

And if you got a little chunky, well, I hope you're by handling slower. Up to the challenge, but, you know, this, uh, gravel revolution happened and all of a sudden you have all these options, um, not only in tires, but all of a sudden frames and, you know, it just became this. Um, the celebration of all things gravel.

And so now it's just another bike in your quiver. Um, so yeah, we did that too.

[00:06:54] Craig Dalton: As gravel started to become popularized and specific bikes started to arrive. Were you someone who found your way to gravel events outside of Boulder County? Yeah, you know,

[00:07:05] Laura Wisner: I did the very first, um, seaboat gravel. Um, did that for a couple of years and at that point I was racing cross and so what I would do is use my cross bike and just switch out.

Um, the wheels, but, you know, the one by there's some pretty good grades around here. If you head up the mountains straight from Boulder, um, you can go up to Gold Hill or Ward. Um, it's a little hard on a 1 by, you know, that's a pretty good workout in and of itself. And geometry is not quite right, so it.

Became a love of mine to the point where, okay. I'm going all in, I'm buying the frame, you know, the specific. Um, gravel bike and got rid of the road frame and. And then got rid of the cross bike and gravel is pretty much it at this

[00:08:00] Craig Dalton: point. Nice. And so let's talk about your connection to Kremling, Colorado, and how you became familiar with the area in the first place.

[00:08:10] Laura Wisner: Yeah. So Kremling, other being the, other than being the, uh, the bend in the road as you go up the steamboat, it's the, uh, West Grams County area. So people know Winter Park. Winter Park is. East Grand, Kremling is West Grand, and so I've been in Grand County quite a bit, skiing and cycling and things like that, but my husband has a family practice position, and for five years, he was Kremling's town doc, and so we kept our family home base here in Boulder, and he would go up to Kremling midweek, and it's a small community, it's predominantly a ranching community, And he got to know the people and, um, I got to slowly know more of the people and when I would go up to visit him midweek.

We would go for gravel rides, and I was just blown away by roads that I didn't know existed. Um, the quality of the gravel was incredible. Um, and I had ridden, you know, boulder roads, I had ridden around steamboats. Um, and, and crumbling is just unsurpassed as far as the quality of its gravel. And the roads that we rode for three hours, and I think one truck passed us.

Um, so, um, being part of Cowtown Gravel is just my way of giving back to that community and being able to lend my excitement for what the area has to offer to other folks who love gravel as much as I do.

[00:09:51] Craig Dalton: I've gotten many questions about Cowtown Gravel, but I have to take us on a quick detour because I'm curious.

I had recently, I'm curious about becoming the town doctor for a community. Is that was your husband sort of offered employment at the city or county level to come and be a physician for that community? And my only point of reference is watching Doc Hollywood recently with my 9 year old son,

[00:10:20] Laura Wisner: my husband was a position on the front range for a while and part of the, the bigger system that sometimes is kind of beholden to insurance companies. And he just wanted something different. Um, and in Boulder, a little bit of his frustration was continually patting people on the back thing. You're healthy as a horse, you know, continue that marathon training or, you know, climbing or whatever you're doing.

Um, if you wanted something a little bit more challenging, and when you go to a rural community, you get to see a lot more. Um, Kremlin does have an incredible, uh, health system up there. They were the first in Colorado to have a trauma one emergency room, uh, decades ago. And, um, they're, they're top notch, uh, health care up there, but it's hard to find doctors in rural areas.

So, um, he, he, his attention was called to this position and he went up there and thought, you know, what? I want to do this, um, and truly the only reason that he came back. To the front range, uh, after five years is because we have a, a kid who's finishing up high school and he wanted to be present for that last year.

So, so he made the change, but there is a part of both his and my heart that is still in K Town.

[00:11:49] Craig Dalton: Yeah, you had mentioned, obviously part of his journey was getting to know members of the community and de facto with your visits there, you started to get to know. some of the community members and as avid cyclists exploring.

It sounds like you found other gravel cyclists who are based out of Cowtown. Can you talk about some of those characters you met? Oh

[00:12:10] Laura Wisner: yeah, and, and the biggest character of all is Sean Scholl, who is a co race promoter with, uh, along with Blaine Day. And Sean is Big Shooter of Big Shooter Coffee. And he is this incredibly loud, large character who is just incredible and so full of fun and has a lot of energy.

And he, he was a world class athlete. And I would even say still is. Um, so he lives up there and he and Blaine are cycling buddies. And they wanted to create an event. Up in Kremling, welcome the world, come and check it out, check out the back roads. And when I heard through the grapevine that they were going to have this gravel race, I reached out to them and I said, I'm in, I want to help, what can I do?

My background is in marketing and so I was able to lend that to them. The organization and so the, the really incredible thing about Blaine and Sean is that they're not trying to create an event that is just, you know, really easy. Come on up and, you know, we'll show you our background roads and we'll just have a great day.

They surprised people in our first year with how hot it was. So, the Kremlin gravel, uh, we call it untapped and untamed, which is when you drive into Kremlin, that's the sign as you come into town, welcome to Kremlin, untapped and untamed. And we decided to put that as our gravel moniker. Um, there are roads that you couldn't even tell that's gravel because it almost feels paved.

Um, and then you can go a little further in and, you know, get a little bit chunkier, um, a little bit rowdier. Um, and and what these guys are doing is they are creating an experience for, um, all 3 of our porcelain that people are just blown away by. Um, they're blown away by the climbing. They're blown away by, um, sections.

Of roads or trails that they didn't even know existed. So we had such good feedback last year that the team had scientists went back to the drawing board. That my ride this year and made it even rowdier. So, really excited to have those people who joined us last year. Come and see what we have in store this year.

[00:14:50] Craig Dalton: Yeah, that sounds amazing. So I want to talk a little bit about the gravel. I mean, obviously, if you go a little further up the road, an hour to steamboat, they talk about champagne gravel. You've been describing it a little bit, but it sounds like the team at Cowtown is trying to make sure that both our climbing legs, as well as our technical skills are explored.

So what type, you know, if you think about through the course of the, the longer course, Think about the types of terrain and describe some of the different areas, whether it's single track, double track or dirt road that you might find yourself on.

[00:15:23] Laura Wisner: Yeah. So, um, right now on calicongravel. com, we have the maps available to folks with the one caveat is that these might change because we're working with the Bureau of Land Management and the PLM.

Um, Bill are going to tell us yes or no on some sections. So we put the scenario on that has more paved segments than non paved. I should say. All of our 3 races are predominantly gravel. If the BLM will give us permission, we're going to take off more paved sections and add more gravel for unpaved. So, um, our longest course is called the bull.

It's 90 miles and it has 8, 000 feet of climbing. So, as it stands right now, worst case scenario, 76 percent unpaid, which is pretty incredible in and of itself. So, uh, we start right outside of town square. Um, we're going to start the high school, all downtown Kremling. Um, and we're going to start going northeast and if we're starting with paves, it's going to be a pretty fast start.

There will be a peloton and, and, um, some people can hang on for dear life and some are just going to, you know, hard charge from the start. From there, we get to a really smooth gravel. It's very similar to Of pavement and you will hardly even tell that it's it's gravel. Um, and it's just a hard pack. It's beautiful.

And from there, we go to what we call the whoopie moves and, um, just rolling, um, up and down and that is probably 1 of our chunkier sections, um, you know, a little bit looser, a little bit larger, uh, rock section, but It is something that anybody with, you know, halfway decent bike handling skills is going to be able to accomplish, um, and they're fun.

And so we go from there back to a nice hard pack gravel. Um, something that is new this year is we're going up Black Mountain, um, which is about a 1600 foot climb. And both the bull long course and the cow mid length course will go up Black Mountain. Um, and at the top they're going to go down through three miles of private ranch land, which is super cool because, you know, part of the fun of gravel is exploring roads and places you've never been.

So this private ranch land is only going to be accessible on race day. So you can't pre ride it. Can't check it out the day before. So that is going to be, um, a really fun first climb and I'll probably set the, the pack apart a bit there.

[00:18:30] Craig Dalton: And how about on that, on that descent, is it the type of thing that it's sort of wide open and it's full gas or are there some technical elements to it that you need to be cautious about?

Um,

[00:18:42] Laura Wisner: it's going to be fine. It's not going to be super technical because we are taking, um. The mid and the long course through it. We wanted to make sure that, you know, we're not, uh, less than anybody going down that. So, um. It's totally rideable, and, and you won't need shocks, and, and you won't need, uh, mountain bike handling skills.

But, I mean, those people who are, who want to go fast certainly can let it loose on that. It'll be great. Yeah,

[00:19:13] Craig Dalton: yeah, and then it looks like from the course profile that you hit another big climb. Well,

[00:19:17] Laura Wisner: here's where the two, uh, courses diverge. So, the bull, will go up again, and they'll go up Grouse Mountain.

This was a part of the course from last year that people really enjoyed. Um, so they'll go up, and Grouse Mountain is, um, it's a, it's a paved, not a paved, it's a gravel road for ranchers to access their ranches. So, I mean, it's just a normal road. Once you get up towards the loop, there is going to be a little bit more, um, dirt section versus gravel, um, and.

The whole loop has been expanded this year, so people can catch their breath this year. Check out the views, that's our highest point in the race. And, um, it's really beautiful. There's an abandoned cabin up there. There are streams that people often just fill their water bottles with, unfiltered water. Um, and are totally fine.

So, we are going back up Grouse Mountain on the long course. Doing a lollipop and then coming back down

[00:20:28] Craig Dalton: again. Got it. And I forgot to mention, or ask, what elevation is crumbling to start with?

[00:20:34] Laura Wisner: Oh, crumbling is, uh, sorry about that. Crumbling is a little bit lower. I'd have to check that out.

[00:20:45] Craig Dalton: Yeah, so a little bit lower than Boulder.

So we're, we're not in the stratosphere when we climb up 1600 feet.

[00:20:50] Laura Wisner: Um, I'm not going to say it's lower than Boulder, but it's, it's not, um, oh, 73, almost 7400 feet.

[00:20:59] Craig Dalton: Okay. So that's no joke for us. Flatlanders.

[00:21:02] Laura Wisner: Well, we have to give you some, some elements of the mountains here, but it's not like you're starting up at 11, 000 feet and you're going to feel the altitude a little bit if you're coming from,

[00:21:15] Craig Dalton: yeah, that's part of the fun.

Okay, so we've gone up and down grass mountain. What, what comes next?

[00:21:22] Laura Wisner: Okay, so what we're doing this year is we are reversing course around our reservoir. Williams Fork Reservoir is just beautiful. And last year we started and went around it counterclockwise and so the Peloton was pretty tight through all of that.

This portion is paved, um, to get to the, um, Williamsport Reservoir, you just have a little bit on the highway, but then a little climb again, about 500 feet, and then, um, you'll go around the water, um, um, And start heading back towards crumbling. So it's really scenic. Uh, and just really kind of a nice thing to see water, uh, water is a big issue for us here in the West.

And so you're going to cross the Colorado on a bridge and then go around and work and see mountains in the background and it's. It's just really spectacular if you can catch your breath and look up once in a while.

[00:22:26] Craig Dalton: I forgot to ask this on air, but how do you sort of cast the event in terms of a race versus a ride?

And are there, is it a heavily competitive element in the front end? So

[00:22:39] Laura Wisner: the spirit of Kowtown Gravel is we wanted to A, welcome people to the Kremling and and have them stop in our earlier than steamboat. Um, Kremling is only an hour and a half, two hours from the front range, depending on where you are.

Um, we wanted to invite people to Kremling and check out our gravel. Secondly, it is a fundraiser for the community gym floor. The floor is half pulled out, and the multi generational community just really needs a place to work out that there's, you know, the schools need, um, a place to have the kids sports.

The older folk need a place to work out, and so this is a fundraiser for the Middle Park gym, and so we don't have a prize purse at this point. We are trying to raise money. And so we have had some really competitive people come the first year. We had some semi pros and some pros come. And again, this year we are not going to offer a prize purse.

Um, because this is a fundraiser, but that said, there were some pretty fast calves who came and raced, but we welcome those who just want to come out for an event and get access to this ranch that they're never going to be able to ride on again. Um, do the short course, which we call the calf course, which is, um, just really a welcoming section of Kremlin gravel.

Um, E bikes are welcome on it, families are welcome on it, people who just don't want to commit the time or the distance. This is a 35 mile, just on a 35 mile course. 2200 miles of elevation gain. So, uh, we hope that some, some more pros come out. We're going to, you know, reach out and invite folks. Um, but you're going to, you know, the fun of gravel is you can come race an event or just come out and ride it because you're with, you know, a few hundred of your like minded

[00:24:48] Craig Dalton: friends.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You're a great distance away from the front range to kind of come out and experience something unique. And I always love when events are able to negotiate access to land that we wouldn't otherwise get to ride because it just adds a sort of additional special elements to the

[00:25:05] Laura Wisner: day.

Well, in Special Elements, the, one of the things about Kremling is that it being a ranch community, um, big shooter, Sean, is a fifth generation rancher, and so he goes out and personally talks to the ranchers along the course. And ask them, please don't do your cattle drive a few days before, or this day, because we're going to have a lot of cyclists coming to, um, you know, you imagine a herd of cattle on the road, trying to compete for the road with cyclists.

Or if they do their cattle drive a couple of days before, you're going to have a lot of cow pies being flipped up with the gravel. So, it's a unique, um, a unique aspect that Cowtown has. I mean, it really is, uh, true to its name in that aspect. Yeah,

[00:25:58] Craig Dalton: that's great. I'm sure that Sean as a local and a cattleman himself is able to get his His peers excited for the option of allowing cyclists to come through town and not get too annoyed that their, their day might be a little bit disrupted by a Peloton at some point.

[00:26:16] Laura Wisner: Well, you could get that in an urban setting or anywhere, but, um, the, the community of crumbling was really wonderful. We had. People from the retirement community make breakfast burritos and still those before the race of the fundraiser. Um, we had the high school band come and play at the after party. We had ranchers who were just out on their horses along the course and waving us on and cheering for us and.

Um, it's just a really cool, unique

[00:26:45] Craig Dalton: event. That's fun. I was going to ask you, like, if someone was interested in coming to the event, are there accommodations in Kremling, or do people typically drive in that day, or are they staying over? You know,

[00:26:58] Laura Wisner: it's a mix, because, um, We're about an hour from Winter Park, about an hour from Steamboat, um, less than an hour from Summit County, and so there are a lot of folks in Colorado who have vacation homes, and so they might come up, do the event for the day, and because we're so close to the front range, you know, within two hours, some people might just make it a day event, go up and back.

Kremlin does have lodging, we have A little bit of lodging, so if you're going to want a hotel to sleep in a bed, I'll get your lodging early. We do have an RV part. We have, um, camping. There's camping around the reservoir that we're going to ride around so. I would recommend that if people want to come up and we would love to have you, we're going to have a great time afterward.

Uh, spend the night before, spend the night after, but make your plans early, especially because it is the 4th of July holiday. Okay.

[00:28:02] Craig Dalton: And so what's the experience like once we cross the finish line? What should riders expect at that point?

[00:28:09] Laura Wisner: Well, we have expanded our finish line experience this year. Um, and you know, we learn things as every race.

Organization does. So this year we're going to have an arch welcoming people in. So it feels like I'm done. Um, we finished at Town Square, which has a brand new pavilion. So there's going to be a lot of shade. Um, we're going to have a band again. We're going to have food for people. There's a beer trailer.

Um, kids can run around with their shoes off. It's just a really clean park and people just they hung out. You know, it's the I'll pray experience. You say hello to old friends. You talk to people. You might have met on course and road with for a while. So it was really nice event that it's the kind of thing where people hang out for a few hours and just chat it up and talk about their experience.

[00:29:08] Craig Dalton: And prior to prior to this recording, you'd sent me a photo and you told me there was an interesting story. So it's a photo. I'm looking at a wide expanse of beautiful grazing land backdrop of beautiful Colorado mountains. I think that's a mosaic bike, but the writer is wearing what seems to be a bull.

Skull on their head.

[00:29:33] Laura Wisner: So that writer is Ben Delaney, and he came up in order to check out the course last year and Ben is a cycling journalist journalist who's been around forever. So that was on the top of Grouse Mountain and it took a little stop at the top to look around, take pictures and he points at the ground and says what's that?

And of course, Cowtown. It's a cow pelvis bone, and the thing is, is really funny because it just looks like something out of a action hero movie. And so he started wearing it as a mask, wore it as a breastplate, was just hamming it up in front of a camera. But, you know, it's, it's, you know, it's trembling and there's going to be cow bones laying around.

So, that, that's the

[00:30:21] Craig Dalton: cow pelvis. It's a great, it's a great image and I'll, I'll make sure to put that as part of the part of the episode art so people can check it out. So, what's the best way for people to find out more about cowtown gravel? When are you opening up registration?

[00:30:38] Laura Wisner: So, we are opening registration to the public on January 6, 2024.

Um, people who sign up for our newsletter get to register a full day early. So we, in our inaugural year last year, we had 350 spots and we sold out and people were begging for a wait list. And so this year, we are going to open up to 700 spots. Um, and we do fully expect to sell out again. So again, go to CowTownGravel.

com and put as much information as possible on our website, including a link to register the course maps, descriptions. Um, where do you find lodging? Um, it's all on our website.

[00:31:25] Craig Dalton: Great, and definitely give them a follow on Instagram and see some of those great views we've been talking about. It looks like a lot of fun.

I definitely love these sort of rural town starts. It's really cool to see another part of Colorado kind of raising their hand and saying, Hey, we've got great riding here too. And it's exciting that Sean and Blaine Kind of took this opportunity to sort of write a gravel love letter to their hometown and invite 700 of their new friends to come join them in 2024.

Yeah,

[00:31:56] Laura Wisner: we, we promise that it'll be experience that will not soon be forgotten.

[00:32:01] Craig Dalton: Awesome. Thanks for the time.

[00:32:03] Laura Wisner: Come back out Colorado. We'd

[00:32:05] Craig Dalton: love to see you. Yeah, I definitely need another Colorado trip in my life. That's for sure. Thanks for all the

[00:32:12] Laura Wisner: time, Laura. All right. Thank you.

[00:32:15] Craig Dalton (host): That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. Big, thanks to Laura for coming on the show and talking to us about cow town gravel. If you're listening to this in early January. Registration opens up on January 6th. So make sure to head on over to the Cowtown gravel website, which I will link to in the show notes and grab a registration.

If this event sounds like your cup of tea. Big, thanks to our friends at dynamic cyclists for sponsoring the show. Remember use the code, the gravel ride for 15% off any of their programs. If you're interested and we're able to support the show, ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated. It really helps in our discoverability. Better yet, send a text message to one of your riding buddies and share the show with them.

That's another great way to grow the community. Until next time, I'm wishing you a happy new year and here's to finding some dirt under your wheels.

Tito Nazar, the founder of Gravel de Fuego, discusses the growth of gravel cycling in Chile and the unique challenges and beauty of the Patagonia region. He shares his personal journey from mountaineering to ultra running to gravel cycling, and how he was inspired to create the Gravel de Fuego event. The event features a sprint loop of 252 km and a 1000k race, both showcasing the stunning landscapes of Patagonia. Tito emphasizes the importance of experiencing nature and the sense of adventure that comes with ultra cycling. The event takes place in April and participants can fly into Santiago before traveling to Punta Arenas.

Gravel Del Fuego Website and Instagram

Episode Sponsor: Dynamic Cyclist (15% off with code TheGravelRide)

Support the Podcast

Join The Ridership 

About The Guest(s): Tito Nazar is a gravel cyclist and race organizer from Chile. He grew up in Patagonia and has a deep connection with the region. Tito is the co-founder of Gravel de Fuego, a gravel race that takes place in the stunning landscapes of Patagonia.

Summary: Tito Nazar, a gravel cyclist and race organizer from Chile, joins the show to discuss the Gravel de Fuego race and the beauty of Patagonia. Tito shares his background in mountaineering and ultra running before discovering gravel cycling. He talks about the growth of the gravel community in Chile and the unique challenges of gravel riding in Patagonia. Tito then dives into the details of the Gravel de Fuego race, including the sprint loop and the 1000k event. He highlights the breathtaking scenery, the logistics of the race, and the opportunity for riders to connect with nature. Tito also discusses the importance of timing the race in April to avoid extreme winds and rains. The conversation concludes with Tito explaining the process of crossing the waterway and the unique experience of finishing the race.

Key Takeaways: - Gravel cycling is growing in popularity in Chile, particularly in Santiago. - Gravel de Fuego offers riders the opportunity to experience the stunning landscapes of Patagonia. - The sprint loop of the race showcases the iconic Torres del Paine mountains. - The 1000k event takes riders through diverse landscapes, including flat pampas and mountain ranges. - The race provides support and accommodations for riders, ensuring their safety and comfort.

Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:

[00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport

I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist.

[00:00:28] Craig Dalton (host): This week on the podcast that got the great pleasure of welcoming Tito Nazar founder of gravel Delph Wigo out of Chile. To discuss the event, the growth of gravel in Chile and Patagonia. And the beauty of the region of Patagonia, he's going to share his personal journey from mountaineering to ultra running to gravel cycling and how he was inspired to create gravel the flag out. As an homage to his home region. Of Patagonia.

As someone who's had the great pleasure of visiting Patagonia on a hiking trip previously, I would double click on that and encourage you to run over to Instagram and follow the gravel dove Wagga site. To see just what we're talking about. As we have this conversation. Before we jump into this conversation.

I need to thank this week sponsor. Dynamic cyclist. If you're not familiar with dynamic cyclist. It's a video base, stretching and strength program focused on cyclists. The team over there has created a vast library of stretching and strengthening routines. Focus specifically on those problem areas that us as cyclists constantly endure as someone who's always struggled with mobility and flexibility, I've really welcomed these training sessions. Because

there are only 15 minutes long, which means you can fit them into almost any day of the week. They focus on the various body parts that we overuse at cyclist

and even have specific stretching programs for those problem areas.

For me, it's the low back. So each winter. I follow their six week low back training program. In addition to the general stretching and strengthening training advice. They provide. Go on over to dynamics, cyclist and check it out. You can use the coupon code. A gravel ride. To get 15% off any of their plans, they do have a free trial.

So there's no reason. Not to head on over to dynamics, cyclist.com and give it a try.

With that business behind us, let's jump right into my conversation with Tito.

[00:02:35] Craig Dalton (host): Tito, welcome to the show.

[00:02:38] Tito Nazar (guest): Hello.

[00:02:39] Craig Dalton (host): I'm super excited to have this conversation. It's been a while in the making.

[00:02:43] Tito Nazar (guest): Thank you so much for your patience. Um, it required a lot of work on my side, but you've been very kind to me, so thank you for having me.

[00:02:52] Craig Dalton (host): You had me at Patagonia. The moment you said that in your first email, I was like, I need to find out what Tito's all about. And the more I've learned over the years have left, left even more excited to have this conversation today.

[00:03:08] Tito Nazar (guest): Yeah, Patagonia, well, it's such a powerful word. Uh, probably you agree with this. Um, yeah, Patagonia is very far south, don't you think? Close to Antarctica, maybe?

[00:03:19] Craig Dalton (host): Indeed, I think it's the farthest South I've ever been and just putting it out there to those listening. I've been on a trekking trip in Patagonia, which covers the and jump in, correct me if I'm wrong, but the sort of southern area of Argentina and Chile is kind of the Patagonia region. And I had the pleasure of seeing some of the most beautiful mountains in the world on this track.

And also some of the longest bus rides I feel like I've ever taken across the region to get from one point to another.

[00:03:48] Tito Nazar (guest): And windy, maybe, no? Yeah.

[00:03:51] Craig Dalton (host): A hundred percent. I think the first day, the sort of the female guide, she was wearing a ski hat and it was, it was not a cold time of year. And she was just basically like, Hey, if you're going to be out in this ripping wind all day, it's just nice to have something covering your ears.

[00:04:06] Tito Nazar (guest): Patagonia, it's crazy. Um, I'm a very, I want to believe I'm a big fan of history, but also, yeah, I have a deep connection with the past and I think Patagonia is powerful because of our, of the aesthetics, the mountains, of course, but the history that surrounds, uh, the mountains is something that is hard to grasp and maybe to find.

Uh, but of course I was born and raised there. So. I want to believe that I have a deep connection with my land. Uh, and that's why I'm very excited about this event because, um, of course, um, I want to show the world a different perspective, even, even to myself. Like I know my region climbing, ice skating, uh, skiing, but, uh, but graveling is a new thing in Chile and even more in Patagonia.

[00:04:57] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. We'll get into it in a minute because I know you described the sprint loop as being one of the most spectacular rides you've ever done. But before we get into the event itself, let's just talk a little bit about you and your background and how you came to the sport of gravel cycling.

[00:05:14] Tito Nazar (guest): Mm, Mm, I began doing mountaineering. Uh, there is this guy, Ulishtek, have you heard of him? Um, may he rest in peace. Uh, okay. You know, the Banff, uh, festival was in, it was still taking, it takes place in Chile. So of course, if you were a rock climber following Chris, Chris Sharma, you know, Adam Ondra now these days, uh, and eventually Ulishtek show up in one of those videos, climbing the North face of the Eiger.

So I was one of those fans and I've been. I was talking this with my girlfriend. I, I think I am very obsessed with going fast and light. I never liked trekking really, which I've been a trekking guide, but it was not my thing. I was always cutting grams and stuff, ounces, you would say. But what I'm trying to say is that, uh, I got into mountaineering, then I understood there was something called trail running and I became an auto runner, I guess around Leadville, 100.

I did it. I got the big buck, big buckle. I don't know how many hours you have to do it. I don't remember the hours. Um, it was the only time I trained in my life and ultra. Then I knew it took me too many years. I had like a very conventional education, private schools and Catholicism. And I had to become an engineer.

Nothing of that worked. And it took me many years to understand. I have like a deep passion for ultra stuff. We'll try whatever. So one person told me that if you had a bicycle, I could go super far over 200 Ks. That might be 160 miles. So maybe two months after I bought my first road bike, I hated it, but I just used it.

And have you heard of this, uh, concept crack called Brevet? Brevet? This

[00:07:07] Craig Dalton (host): Yes. Yeah. In fact, we just, I just had a friend on talking about Perry Russ Paris and explaining the Brevets and that whole culture.

[00:07:15] Tito Nazar (guest): You see? Okay. So I did the 200, the 300, the 400, the 600 Ks. And I ended up not liking it. It was too easy because it's just road bikes. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it was lacking to me of a real adventure because, you know, it's everything too under control. And I don't know how gravel cycling showed up and I got myself another bike.

And it was a gravel bike. And before it was something here in Chile, just before it became something, I was already graveling. And just exploring and, I've begun doing everything that you were supposed to do with a mountain bike. I was doing it with the gravel because it reminded me more of having like a steel frame when we were kids, probably.

So that's how it went. And then the community began to grow and

[00:08:05] Craig Dalton (host): And were you, were you living in, in Santiago at then at this point, I believe you grew up in Southern Chile, but you went to Santiago for college, right?

[00:08:13] Tito Nazar (guest): that's right. Uh, sadly, yes, college. And then I, I went back to home and yeah, but I, but I was running a lot. So I've been running a lot, a lot. And cycling, it was basically the same thing. And graveling became an explosion just before COVID in Chile, just before, maybe a year before, uh, graveling culture exploded.

So I took my bike to the South. Um, I am from Punta Arenas, very far in Patagonia. Very far South and I was just grappling, trying to understand what this was. And, uh, of course I had the, everybody's drama, uh, what tire with, uh, suspension or suspension bike packing, not by packing gravel racing. Um, how error should I be? Yeah, but, um, yeah, after, and after COVID, I came back to Santiago

[00:09:06] Craig Dalton (host): Maybe to help people understand a little bit about what graveling is like in Chile. Where did you, where did you arrive with your bicycle setup?

[00:09:16] Tito Nazar (guest): when,

[00:09:17] Craig Dalton (host): When, when, what type of bike did you end up? Did you buy an aero bike? Did you buy a bike packing bike? What seems to be the best for the type of terrain you were enjoying?

[00:09:27] Tito Nazar (guest): well, that's going to be a complicated discussion because, um, okay, I have to give a short perspective of how gravel behaves in this lovely country of mine. Uh, we don't have the, we talked about this, right, Craig, um, our gravel is not like this thing you get to see in unbound gravel or. Some of the races where you're like flowing and aero bars and everything is so nice and smooth.

We have a more aggressive gravel. It's more rugged, uh, with more bigger rocks. It is very safe, but it's just not so fast rolling. This concept is different. So usually our gravel bikes in the, in this country, we have. Wide tires, at least 38 millimeters, 38C at least. Everybody's now going over 40s and suspension may be, it might be a topic, but you know, it makes it more expensive.

Um, myself, I have an, uh, a racing, uh, frame because I'm obsessed with grams. I'm a weight weenie. I'm super weight weighting. My gravel bike must be 7. 3 kilos. That's like a pro tour bike, aero pro tour bike. It's the same weight as mine. So, but it's, but I have like a super amazing, can I say the brand or no?

[00:10:39] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, sure.

[00:10:40] Tito Nazar (guest): I have René Hersey, René Herse. I've tested all the tires in the world and yeah, those are like by far the best. Um, there are two, you say supple, I think, absorption. My God, they're magical. So you can use, well, that, that's just my personal experiment. But, um, going back to the concept, um, I use a gravel racing bike, uh, not aero.

But to ultralight, but people prefer to have more chunky tires, um, maybe heavier, but they focus, of course, more on, on comfort because that is the priority in a country such as this.

[00:11:15] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. When you, when you talk about sort of gravel beginning to take off kind of just before COVID and, and then the years afterwards, were you finding other gravel cyclists? Were they starting to crop up? Did you find a way to bring that community together?

[00:11:32] Tito Nazar (guest): Well, in Patagonia itself, no, that is the honest, the honest truth. We were like three guys and it is growing. I will not lie, but it's, it's slow because in places such as Patagonia, where the weather, whether it's very unpredictable, mountain biking makes more and people were doing mountain biking on gravel.

You know, so now it's a matter of, you know, the, the concept has to penetrate, um, over the, the community. Santiago is faster. Everything goes faster because, you know, Santiago is a capital of, I don't know anymore, 10 million people. So that means there's just too much going on. Events, of course, just everything takes place here and then it spreads, uh, all over the country.

So I think something fascinating is not really connected to this podcast, but Chile is one of the most. Connected people to cell phones in the world, like whatever you do, if you show it on Instagram, people will know you can, maybe you will be on TV, nobody will see you, but on Instagram. So I guess we are more connected through, through social media.

So I can tell you how much is growing maybe in Santiago and slower in the rest of the country, but it is growing, but the rates are different. The closer you are to the capital, of course, it's faster.

[00:12:51] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. And then at some point you got the bright idea to put on your first event and that was closer to Santiago, right?

[00:12:59] Tito Nazar (guest): very close, like two hours and a half, and it, it was not done in Santiago because we don't really have real gravel in Santiago. So we thought, okay, where's the closest place for real gravel? And it's like, yeah, it's in a place called Navidad. The, we are separated in regions, and those region regions are separated in municipalities.

I don't know if that the word.

[00:13:20] Craig Dalton (host): Yep. Sure.

[00:13:21] Tito Nazar (guest): the municipality of NIDA is where we take place because. We thought it was one of the best gravels we have found in the entire country, really. But it was not myself. It was, um, two friends of mine, um, that, uh, Juan and Luis, he was just here and we are partners and friends.

Um, and we invented this crazy race called Gravel Coast. That was our first event almost four years ago.

[00:13:48] Craig Dalton (host): And what, what's the Gravel Coast event like?

[00:13:53] Tito Nazar (guest): Well, we call it, we invented it somehow inspired in unbound in what's happening in the North Amer in North America. We feel very connected, especially my friend Luon. Uh, Luis, uh, Luchon likes, he knows all the athletes of your country, what's happening there, what's happening with the bikes. He likes the technology and everything.

So, and I also feel very connected with many events over there because of Lifetime company. You know, it's, you know, they, they, they have some understanding about marketing, so it hits all the way down here. So we, we try to make an, let's say an adaptation. Of what you are, what these people are building over there and maybe adapted to our reality because we don't have this once again, even though it's a great gravel quality, it's not like a super fast rolling concept.

It is more, it is a, it is a real challenge to finish a gravel coast race. Don't get me wrong. Anything can do it. I mean, many people, but you have to, you have to be prepared. I mean, our 200 miles are just insane. You know, there's too much climbing. So that means you're going to be on the saddle a bunch of hours. You're going to be proud of finishing gravel coast. That's why we say

[00:15:07] Craig Dalton (host): and is it, is it a 200 mile event? The Gravel Coast?

[00:15:11] Tito Nazar (guest): we have last year, we had 70 Ks, a hundred, I forgot my members so weak, but 120 Ks, a two 40 Ks and a three 20 Ks, which is a, which is a 200 miles now for the final event that is taking next year, that is 2024. It's in October. That is our spring. Um, it's going to be. Um, 50 miles, a hundred miles and 200 miles.

[00:15:37] Craig Dalton (host): Gotcha. Gotcha. Now let's talk about the event you're going to be kicking off in 2024. What inspired you? Yeah, the big one. What, what inspired you to take the mantle and create this event yourself? What inspired you of where you're placing it? I have so many questions about Gravel Del Fuego.

[00:16:01] Tito Nazar (guest): Oh,

I really love my country. Uh, especially Patagonia. Um, it's hard to explain, but okay. I'm, I'm, I'm super lucky person because my father taught me how to fish, hunt, and some scuba diving. And Tierra del Fuego Island, it is a place that everybody wishes to see. But there is no development. There is no, there's not many, unless you're like a person who likes fly fishing and can pay on a helicopter, that is the only way maybe you can access to the island.

Now it's getting more popular, but 20 years ago, I mean, if you were not a gaucho, you know, these people that take care of their cattle over there, or if you were not like a fisherman or maybe crazy guy, you had no idea what, I mean, you, you knew what the island was, but. No way you will dare to dive into it.

I think that thing is still happening, but I am so lucky. I know the island because of my father. He took me fly fishing all the time with a truck. Don't get me wrong, not on a helicopter. And we will just, you know, get into river rivers and he will bring his boat and we will just try to catch some salmons and trouts.

And so I had that first approach. And I saw the island just like that, but then I ended up being working for a king penguin colony. I mean, not for the penguins themselves, but from the owner of the, of the park. And I began to understand that was tourism. This was like, this was the real future of the islands. And then I ended up working for some company of the government for a commercial. I can show it to you on YouTube. I look very pathetic. And believe it or not, I was the model. They call me and I was like, have you seen pictures of me? I'm not a model. They were like, no, but we need somebody adventurous, blah, blah, blah.

So I saw once again, the entire island. Without this tourism vision, time passed and it took me like three years to launch this race. I was not daring. I was wondering if I had the experience, but after all the events we've done these days, I mean, accumulated until today, it gave us the guts to, okay, now we know we have the capacity.

I have the understanding. I've been in races where people have been in trouble in Patagonia. So I saw what was wrong. So I was able to understand how I can provide some safety. to secure people to enjoy the experience and not to be, you know, traumatized. Um, so it's been a long process. I don't know if that response answers the question, but, um, it was maybe a lack, a matter of luck of having one vision and then to have a more modern vision of how tourism come dive into the island.

And show it to the world.

[00:18:48] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, I think it's a fairly common kind of expression from race organizers that they've just been somewhere where they want other people to see And a very small number of you out there in the world, take it upon yourself to map something, to organize something, to bring people together. So I'm always super excited.

And I was bemused by the distance of your sprint event. Your sprint is 252 kilometers, which is only a sprint in relative to the grand daddy event, which is how many kilometers for the full full event.

[00:19:27] Tito Nazar (guest): uh, actually I did the conversion. Um, the, the, the sprint is 150 miles. I know it's a sprint. It's an irony. It's an irony. And then that we have the big, uh, uh, route that is a thousand case that is, uh, roughly 654 miles, 600, 654 miles.

[00:19:48] Craig Dalton (host): Okay. So let's, let's talk about them quickly independently of one another and let's start off with the sprint event of roughly 150 miles. Can you just sort of walk us through what the vision was? And I believe you were telling me earlier, this was the loop that really was magical in your mind. If you were going to do any one thing, do it for one 24 hour period.

This is the loop you would want to share with the world. So let's talk about it.

[00:20:17] Tito Nazar (guest): Well, I have to, I have to confess. Um, I have to confess that everything was born from Tierra del Fuego. I, one of the obsessions I like to do is I like to do things that people have not done ever because it's more adventurous when something is done and you're trying to break the record, you have one warranty, which is.

You can make it because it is already done, but when something has never been done, there is more mystery. There's more uncertainty and I crossed the island from the north to the south in gravel racing non sleeping mode for the first time ever and back then I was already building the idea of making a race.

But I wasn't sure and then the upper section of the entire race, I speak of the 600 miles race. I've done it many times driving because I was a guide and also I was hunting with my father in some sections too, uh, birds. Um, when I say high hunting, whatever I killed, I ate it. So please don't be upset people.

Um, having said that, um, what was the question? Sorry.

[00:21:20] Craig Dalton (host): Well, I wanted to talk through both of the distances and sort of the vision and starting with the sprint loop. Like, what is, what would the riders be experiencing?

[00:21:30] Tito Nazar (guest): Yeah. Okay. My apologies. Uh, the short loop was kind of logical because it is. It enters the famous park, national park, uh, called Torres del Paine. Torres del Paine are these granite towers, um, that are super insane. These spikes elevate thousands of meters up the sky and they're breathtaking.

[00:21:52] Craig Dalton (host): quick, quick aside, I literally have a picture of the mountains you're describing in my kitchen.

[00:21:57] Tito Nazar (guest): You see, it proves something,

[00:21:58] Craig Dalton (host): it's amazing.

[00:22:00] Tito Nazar (guest): right? Um, so, um, sadly, because of a matter of logistics, we cannot make it shorter. Uh, we will have to bring people to, I don't know, closer to the mountains, but that would mean to move the people and their bikes, and that is just impossible. Chile is a very expensive country, so, sorry, that's the best we can do.

And what you're going to see is that, I mean, from the mile 60, you get to see the towers right away. Uh, the videos are, are on the Instagram of the, uh, gravel del fuego. That is the name of the race. And yeah, I mean, as you are pedaling, correct. You're just looking at the towers from one angle. Then you get to see more of the three towers because there are three towers.

Uh, and then one of the towers hides. And then you just get to see two, but then you see this cold mountain called Almirante Nieto, which is full of glaciers. And yet you get to see the entire faces of the, of these, of these guys. I mean, I'm sorry, of the Almirante Nieto. You leave away Almirante Nieto, and then you see the horns, Los Cuernos, the horns of the Paine, which are these granite, once again, towers that on top, they have, uh, volcanic material.

Which is the black dots on top of them. And that is amazing. Like I just, today I just put some stories on the Instagram, how beautiful they are. And then you final finish, finish with the final peak, the highest one, which is called Paine Grande, Big Paine. Then it has a huge plateau of just glaciers. Um, I'm sorry, I get excited, but I don't know if that So that is the point of the sprint.

I know it's not a sprint, of course, but we made it. Available for all people because they have 20 hours to finish the race. That is a lot of hours. You can contemplate, you can stop, you can eat. And, but it's just, I don't know. Uh, I wish people, I guess I have to invite them to get into the website and see the pictures, like we went on April.

So people would see how the landscape is going to look for them. It's just amazing. I mean, contemplating mounting as you pedal, it cannot be any better. Don't you think

[00:24:01] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, no, I agree. And your enthusiasm is absolutely warranted. And again, I encourage everybody to follow gravel. If I go on Instagram and go to the website, you'll see the pictures, you'll see what we're talking about, and you'll see that even the most monotone individual can not help, but be effusive about how beautiful that region is.

When you think about that loop and you think about the writers, they have 20 hours, you know, inevitably there'll be some person, some people who are racing it. What do you think one can get around the loop in with 20 hours being the maximum? What do you think sort of the minimum winning race time might be?

[00:24:39] Tito Nazar (guest): that's a big one? Um, well, I already have my cartoon one possible winner. His name is, I'm going to say him because he saw the race. When I invented the race, he was the first guy who saw the circuit, the final circuit. Some other friends helped me, uh, I have to name him because he's a very. Great inspiration for ultra community.

His name is Canuto Razoris. We've done some crazy stuff together. Actually, we did the Everest thing, road cycling together. And next week, Andres Tagle, the, uh, maybe the best graveler we have in the country. He saw the circuit. I mean, next, next week he did the Everest thing. Since then we became friends and.

He saw the Gravel de Fuego concept and he was like, Tito, I'm so in, this is the best, the best race ever. Let's do it. He, he will not do the sprint. I think he will go for the thousand, but if somebody of that caliber will go, he can make the race in nothing. I don't know. I would have to do the math, but it would be 23Ks.

I can, let me do it real quick. But people that are very fast and it's legal to draft, so they can do it very quick. Um, they can do it under seven hours. If not less. Andres is detonated. We say in Spanish, Andres is detonated. It's, it's, he's reaching levels that are, he's going probably, I'm guessing he's going to unbound and he's going for something big.

Um, let's pray for

[00:26:03] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, interesting. We'll have to keep our eyes open for him. And then the, the um, The 1000k event, totally different, you know, ball game. You're, you're talking about six and a half days

[00:26:16] Tito Nazar (guest): Yes.

[00:26:17] Craig Dalton (host): To complete it on the, on the outside, talk a little bit about that experience. You mentioned earlier that it goes down into, um, Tierra del Fuego.

So you'll, you'll do the same loop as the sprint, but also head way down to the very, very Southern tip, right?

[00:26:33] Tito Nazar (guest): Yes. That's right. Allow me to say just a little thing because when people hear Patagonia, they hear, they think wind, wind, and then they think rain, rain. And this is very important, uh, Craig, uh, we did the racing on April with, that is autumn is fall. It's not summer. And the question is why don't you do it in summer?

I mean, it's warmer. The answer is yes, but yes, it's warmer, but the wind is way stronger in our spring and our summer way more. So that's why people think of wind because they come in the high season when, when they think it's better. But the thing is in fall, the amount of wind is way less, it's way less, like, I don't know, way slower.

I'm saying 80 percent of the max wind speed you get to have in summer, uh, you have only 20 percent that speed. In April, and the same happens with the rains when it rains. It rains a lot in summer, but if it does in April, it could be more like a shower. So eventually you just can keep pedaling, but it's, it is colder.

Of course it is colder, but it's not extreme cold. So it's what, and the, and finally is the landscape because Patagonia is great. But sadly, what people don't know, and I guess I don't know if it's sad or not, but what I'm trying to share is the most beautiful contrasts of colors you get to have them in, in April because it's fall.

So the, the trees are orange. So you have the glaciers that are already, and then you have the high mountains already with snow because it's freezing on top of them. But you get to have this contrast of these trees with green and the farther you go South is orange. And that's why. And finally, we did the circuit in a way where if there is wind.

It's going to be on your tail. That's why it

[00:28:19] Craig Dalton (host): I was going to,

[00:28:20] Tito Nazar (guest): to south.

[00:28:21] Craig Dalton (host): I was going to ask you that because the coast of California is the same way. It can have a ripping wind, but you know, nine days out of 10, it's always going to be from the North to the South.

[00:28:31] Tito Nazar (guest): Exactly the same here. I mean, I'm speaking from a point of view of mathematics, something, some, this is Patagonia. Everything is unpredictable. Sometimes, of course we can have great wind, but if it does, once again, it should be on your tail, not on your head, not in your head, which is awful. So. Yeah, that is very, very, very important to be mentioned because there is an explanation for choosing not summer, right?

[00:28:56] Craig Dalton (host): exactly. So this, this, um, 1000 K course also has a pretty significant amount of climbing. So you're obviously picking some of that up in the, in the first sprint loop, but then as you go South, are you going over large mountain peaks along the way?

[00:29:15] Tito Nazar (guest): No, it's very fascinating because when you go to Torres del Paine area, as we talked, you get to see the mountains, but then you go south and it's fascinating because. Eventually, when you go south, then you're going to go east following the extreme border of Argentina. Technically, many places you're going to look to your left, and that is going to be Argentina itself.

Like you, you can literally cross illegally to Argentina. Um, not that I have done it, uh, but, uh, it's fascinating. I promise you. that area is so flat. It's so flat. It's, I have pictures posted already. I've never seen something like that, not on gravel, like infinite flatness of a straight road for miles, for miles, I promise you, and then you go South once again, and then you are as soon as long as you're going more and more South, you're somehow approaching a mountain range, which is not famous is called Darwin mountain range that is just before the ocean that touches the Antarctica, the farther you go South, You get to climb, but, um, but it's very graveling, rolling, very decent pace, most of the circuit.

And when I say this, I'm saying of 70 percent of the circuit, the rest of it, especially at the end, very, very end, you get to have mountains for real. And they're beautiful, but it's the final challenge.

[00:30:38] Craig Dalton (host): That's right. How do you imagine cyclists approaching the thousand K in terms of where will they be sleeping? What does that end up looking like?

[00:30:48] Tito Nazar (guest): That's a good question. Um, what, what we did is in the website, we created something called. I don't know English, but it's like, uh, it's like, um, we call it the guide of the race and we put every single campaign, hostel, hotel where you can sleep. So you somehow you can make a schedule of where you can sleep, where you're going to go.

So, or maybe as you are writing, you can arrange a bed for you to be waiting, to be waiting for you. Um. I think I'm pretty sure it's something like not many races of this distance to have, and we're very proud of it because you can somehow be more safe because in other races, it's like from point A from point B follow the circuit.

Good luck. See you soon. And you have, you have to fix it for yourself to give more safety for the people we did so, so I can tell you, and actually we have 12 checkpoints. Many races of this distance, they have only, I don't know, two or three, by a miracle, five checkpoints. We have twelve. And most of them, they're hotels, hostels, so if you're tempted to, for a hot shower, you'll have it.

If you don't have money, or you don't want to spend money, many of them, they have, like, a place for you to put a, set a tent. I have friends that they're coming like this, that crazy, um, more sacrificed style. Um, but also if you're graveling and you want to crash it, um, you can program very well many places to stay, even though there's not many, much traffic, not many cars moving along the circuit, just ourselves.

Um, when I say ourselves, the, the organizers where we have eight vehicles for safety. Um, there are many places where you can be sleeping and you're not going to be so, so. Abandoned in the nothingness of the Patagonia,

[00:32:38] Craig Dalton (host): And will, will the same, uh, would you make the same comment about the ability to resupply with food and water?

[00:32:45] Tito Nazar (guest): um, for the two 50 case, they're very safe in the, actually there's the, um, the big loop also. I mean, the big circuits, because the force, the first four checkpoints, they will have water isotonic and some fruits. So that will make it for most of it. I mean, especially for the sprint, but the, for the rest of the guys, uh, I have arranged a few spots where.

Uh, where they can buy food, uh, and many places, as I said, they have, they have hostels, hotels and nice people that they want to be involved with the community and this event. I have seen them a few, a few times making sure that it will be open and many of them are just waiting these people like, and so, yeah, they will find food.

But of course, the thousand K's have to be a little more careful. You know, the type of nutrition they require is different. The amount of calories, uh, but it's all mostly settled. Yeah,

[00:33:42] Craig Dalton (host): Gotcha. And it looks like at some point you have to cross a waterway. Is there a ferry that the riders will be taking?

[00:33:48] Tito Nazar (guest): that's right. Um, yeah, I'm very excited about it because that requires logistics from the point of view of the, the, the athletes, right? Um, I've done the math and, um, and most of the winners. Uh, they shall not have to wait for the ferry to, I mean, here's the thing. The ferry works from, I don't remember, I think from eight in the morning until 23 PM.

Uh, 23 hours that, so that's a huge gap, but that doesn't guarantee everybody will cross. So first of all, just before the ferry, 2016 miles before the ferry, maybe there is a town that I already have talked many, uh, have had many meetings with them. They're going to supply us, uh, like a gymnasium where they have beds and everything for emergency.

If people want to stay, if people want to pay for more comfort, that's no problem. Um, But I would say like the 40 maybe more, maybe 55 percent 40 percent of the strongest of the racers will make it without waiting for the ferry, because this ferry is crossing from the continent to the island. Um, every 30 minutes, maybe an hour at the most it's a 20 minute minutes cross.

And it's beautiful because you're crossing what is called the Magellanic Strait. Before the Panama channel, the only way you can make it to the other side, right. I think it was discovered in

[00:35:06] Craig Dalton (host): That was the farthest I ever made it. I made it to the side of the Straits of Magellan on the northern side to look at the strait, but I didn't make it across.

[00:35:15] Tito Nazar (guest): You see? Yeah. So I'm not lying. You see? Um, so yeah, I think there is like a deep symbolism in it because it's also brings adventure. It brings more, more of a challenge, but also. Maybe once again, maybe you want to take it slow. I have, we have people from Spain and they want to take it slow. They want to take the six days and a half and they want to sleep just before the ferry, because they just want to see everything on daylight.

So everything has been done like thinking of that, like gravel races, but they don't want to wait for the ferry. Would they just want to get to the other side as fast as possible? I think we are going to manage that slower. People can make it to the other side without waiting. Yes. Some others. We'll be forced to be waiting.

Of course. I mean, there is a schedule, but, um, I think it's, I want to believe it's well, very well

[00:36:03] Craig Dalton (host): it was the perfect, you mentioned the, those final mountains. I think they were, they were the Magellan mountains. Are they on Tierra del Fuego?

[00:36:13] Tito Nazar (guest): Yeah, no, but they are the Darwin mountain range. We are, as you are getting close by. Yeah, that's all right. Um, so many names. It's like, there's no way I know all the mountains in your country. And no worries. Um, the Darwin mountain range, as I said, yes. You're getting so close to them that that's why you have this, um, this, we call them peaks.

Um, and it's funny because in between, before every climb, there is a lagoon on, not a lagoon, um, how do you say, a lake on the other side. And they're very famous for fly fishing. Actually, my father. Walked to the first lake. It took him three days to get there because there was no road before you had to go, no GPS, like it's crazy.

I have pictures of my father climbing those mountains that now you can do go on a bicycle in a super safe way. Um, but yeah, it's beautiful. I mean, the last 300 case. I mean, everything has its beauty, right? Because, um, Torres del Paine National Park, it's mind blowing. There are no words. You have to see it until you see it.

And then you see, and then you understand. And it's going to be in your heart forever. Then you deal with the Pampa, which is the steep, you say in English, with this total flatness that drives you crazy. But it's like super graveling, fast rolling. Uh, there is a video where I'm pedaling, I don't know, 20 something miles per hour.

On aero mode, like flying over the course, and then you have some sections of the Pampa and the final 200 miles are just too impressive. It's too beautiful because then you get to dive yourself into the, into the forest. And there are some sections where it's just, you're in caves covering this beautiful, um, I don't know.

It's hard to say it in English. Um. Because I do believe this, I do feel this race is, I don't know for me, but here's the point, Greg, uh, if you do a race for one point for point a point B, it can be an experience, right? But I want to believe that ultra cycling, any ultra thing we do. There is an opportunity to know yourself and one of the best ways to know yourself is to be dive, like super dived into the nature, like in immersed, you know what I'm saying? There is a moment in life where you feel you're aware that you are you, but also you are somehow aware this is going to be too romantic, but you can be aware of the leaves. You can be aware of the dirt. You can be aware of the, of the water and somehow you really feel part of everything. I want to believe this race can give you that, especially in the beginning and at the bottom.

[00:38:54] Craig Dalton (host): I, I love it, Tito. That was perfect. And I totally agree with you. There's something that that's sort of transcendent when you're on the bike for multiple days in a row, whether. It's as simple as bicycle touring or as adventurous as an event like this, you just become closer to nature than you ever could on a, on a day by day long bike ride.

[00:39:15] Tito Nazar (guest): I meant to that,

[00:39:16] Craig Dalton (host): Yes. So Tito, at the very end of this race, you're quite far away from where you started. What happens at the end?

[00:39:26] Tito Nazar (guest): uh, well, I have to extract people. Here's the thing. Um, remember we spoke about the wind and everything we could make the race somehow to make you for you to return by yourself, pedaling from the South to the North. But as we talked before, the wind comes from the North from the Northwest. So that means probably the wind is going to be in your head.

And even though it's, um, slower, less powerful compared to the summer, uh, we are taking everybody by ourselves. You get to the finish line. There is a sign that says end of the road. It's very perfect. And we're going to set up tents. And every time we gather four people, we get them on a, on a vehicle, on a pickup truck, and we have to drive them.

We have to extract them from the islands to the main city, which is called Portvenir, where my mother was born. Um, and yeah, and, uh, that's how then they can take another ferry. This is another ferry because there are two access, uh, through the island. A small ferry that is in the race, but then there is a longer one, which is like an hour and a half on this ferry to where you get to the capital of the region that is Punta Arenas.

Um, so, so, but it's a long road. I mean, we have to drive them like, I don't know, from this, from the finish to the city, Porvenir. Oof, almost four hours. And before that, we fall, we drop them to the, in the city. We give them as a gift, the, uh, the, I don't know the gift, I guess. I'm sorry. We give them the access to see the penguin.

Remember I told you we work in, I work in the King penguin. Protected area. Okay. Um, we already talked to the owners, um, to the people over there and the money of the entrance for the pink king penguin is goes directly into the protection of these king penguins and, and participants can see them directly as a gift

[00:41:15] Craig Dalton (host): That's, that's so much fun. Tell it, tell us again when, when is the event happening? What's the event date?

[00:41:23] Tito Nazar (guest): April 13th, all the way to the 20th. A bunch of days.

[00:41:29] Craig Dalton (host): And when the listeners of this podcast want to book their tickets and come to the event, how do you, how do you get there? Do you fly into Santiago and then fly south?

[00:41:39] Tito Nazar (guest): Yeah. If, for example, in your case, like anybody, everybody's case, um, situation, they have to fly to Santiago. Well said, uh, to the capital of the country, that's Santiago of Chile. And from Santiago of Chile, there are too many flights, uh, all the way. My recommendation would be to fly to Punta Arenas. Punta Arenas, which means, it means Sandy Point.

Um, Punta Arenas is P U Q, um, if you want to look for the airport and there are buses all the time going to Puerto Natales, where the race really starts. Um, it's for a small fee must be like, well, with the bike might be. 10, 000 Chilean pesos, which is, I don't know, 14. Um, but yeah, my recommendation would be to fly to Santiago, Santiago, Punta Arenas, Punta Arenas, a bus, which is three hours bus from Punta Arenas, Puerto Natales. It's crazy.

[00:42:30] Craig Dalton (host): like that's part of, it's part of the Patagonian experience spending some time on a bus.

[00:42:35] Tito Nazar (guest): If you want to see the beautiness and loneliness of everything. Yeah, that's how it is.

[00:42:40] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, amazing, amazing. Tito, thank you so much for coming on and telling us about Gravel del Fuego. I hope the event is a big success. I know from experience the region is absolutely stunning, and it's amazing that you've taken the time to put this route together, and I can't wait for gravel cyclists all around the world to come and experience this region.

[00:43:02] Tito Nazar (guest): Thank you for your time, Craig. Um, I want to put this, uh, recorded you're welcome. Uh, if you want to come to the race, just, um, let's see if you are crazy. And when I have this crazy adventure with me and experience the Patagonia one more time on two wheels, um, it will be an honor. I do mean it. I mean, I listened to your podcast.

I mean, it will be an honor. So yeah, I want you

[00:43:28] Craig Dalton (host): would, I would love that and appreciate it, and I will a hundred percent get to Patagonia again in my lifetime. It's just, it's too special a place not to revisit in, in, in my lifetime. Once again,

[00:43:40] Tito Nazar (guest): Thank you. Thank you for your

[00:43:41] Craig Dalton (host): again, Tito.

That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. And in fact, at December 19th, that's going to be our last episode for the year and we'll pick it up again. In 2024. Huge. Thanks to all you listeners for supporting me this year. I wouldn't do it without your feedback and encouragement big, thanks to all the sponsors, including this week sponsor. Dynamic cyclists.

If you, as an individual are interested in supporting the show, one of the best things you can do for me is leave me a strong rating or review on your favorite podcast platform that really helps with discoverability or feel free to visit. Buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride. If you're able to support us financially. Until next time.

And until next year, here's to finding some dirt under your wheels.

This week we welcome Jonathan Hornell-Kennedy from Canada's Framework Bikes. Jonathan is a relative newcomer to the world of bicycle framebuilding, but his background in manufacturing and design supporting the aerospace industry provided him with some unique skills and insights he brings to his craft.

Jonathan sheds light on his entry into custom bike building, sharing the evolution of his process. He explains the meticulous method behind the creation of his unique carbon fiber tubes and aluminum lugs. We delve into what makes these bikes versatile on various terrains, and the challenges and decision-making involved in custom builds. Jonathan also touches on the struggles of establishing his brand within the competitive bike industry. 

The conversation rounds off with discussions about the future of Frameworks. Join us for an insightful conversation, as we delve deeper into the fascinating world of custom bike building. 

Framework Bikes Instagram

Episode sponsor: Hammerhead Karoo 2 (Use code: TheGravelRide for free HRM)

Support the Podcast

Join The Ridership 

Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:

[00:00:00]Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport

I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist.

[00:00:25]Craig Dalton (Host): This week on the broadcast. I bring you Jonathan Cornell Kennedy from frameworks out of Canada. You might've heard Jonathan briefly on the podcast. When I did one of my made bicycle show recap shows.

I was captivated by his designs at the show as they were relatively unique amongst the field of titanium and steel welded bicycles. I'd been familiar with lugged carbon construction from a number of other builders along the years, but I hadn't seen his particular approach. And after following him on Instagram, which I definitely recommend you do, I became a NABARD with the manufacturing process. So I was excited to have him back on board to learn a little bit more about his history. He's a relative newcomer to the world of bicycling, which I think always yields interesting and innovative approaches to things.

That's builders who have been around forever. Might not care to revisit as an approach. . So. I'm excited to have this conversation before we jump in. I do need to thank this week sponsor hammer had, and the hammer had Caru to computer.

Maybe you've been thinking about updating your gravel cycling GPS computer. This time of year, the hammer head crew two is the most advanced GPS cycling computer available today. With industry leading mapping navigation and routing capabilities that set it apart for other GPS options, it has free global maps with points of interest included like cafes and campsites.

So you can explore with confidence and on the go flexibility. One of the things I always talk about when talking about my hammerhead crew too. Is the ongoing software updates that they ship. You never have to feel left behind from a new feature coming out in the world because the team at hammerhead are always looking to improve. The device, the climber feature is one that I always call out as it notably has this predictive path technology. Which lets you visualize for the upcoming gradient changes in real time, whether without a root loaded. That is something that I particularly lean on when I'm doing. An event in terrain that I don't. I have familiarity with, or I'm on some sort of adventure ride for me.

I really just love to see what's ahead of me in the climb. So I can just think about my cadence and effort level. Et cetera. The other big update that I saw come through was around this new e-bike integration, which brings detailed battery usage data right onto this. The display. As the new owner of N E MTB, I'm excited to explore this feature. Because I do have a bit of range anxiety. So having those battery details right in the display unit. By which you can access via a specific persona on the head unit.

So I can switch between things I need on an e-bike ride versus things I need on a traditional gravel ride. Anyway, I encourage you to give. The Karoo to a look right now, our listeners can get a free heart rate monitor with the purchase of our hammerhead kuru two. Just visit hammerhead.io right now and use the promo code, the gravel ride at checkout today. This is an exclusive offer for my listeners.

So don't forget that promo code, the gravel ride. You'll get a free heart rate monitor with your purchase of our crew to just go to hammerhead.io today at both items to your cart and use that promo code, the gravel ride. With that business behind us, let's jump right in to my conversation with Jonathan.

Jonathan. Welcome to the show. I'm excited to have this conversation after we originally connected at the maid show in Portland, Oregon. Super cool. I thought your product was one of the more. Interesting products I saw in the entire show. So I'm stoked to give the listeners a little bit more insight as to your background and what frameworks is all about.

[00:04:26]Jonathan: Thanks for saying that. That's nice of you. Um, yeah, it's kind of a tired story at this point. Someone with a passion in bikes and who makes things for a living decides to combine those two

of their life and see what happens.

[00:04:40]Craig Dalton (Host): Jonathan, where'd you grow up and how did you discover cycling in the first place?

[00:04:45]Jonathan:

so I'm, uh, native Southern Ontarian, uh, up here in Canada. I was born in Toronto and have lived within a few hours of Toronto my entire life. Um, so, started biking, just, you know, when you're, Parents kind of teach you how to ride a two wheeler kind of thing in the school field. Well, I was probably like six or seven at that point, um, and we moved out of the city when I was seven and into a more, well, we were still in a town, but I would say a more suburban kind of town.

So biking around the neighborhoods and going to see your friends and stuff, kind of a little bit of escaping mom and dad's supervision. Uh, and then just started kind of. Like, loosely mountain biking. I had like a giant hardtail for my whole, like, biking career from age 12 to when I left for university.

Um, so, you know, go on, jump off of stuff, try and jump over logs, whatever, you know, just being a goof with buddies, and then in university, I, um, that was like, what, early 2000s, um, there was kind of like, the original fixie craze, I feel like

[00:05:57]Craig Dalton (Host): It comes in waves

[00:05:59]Jonathan: but, so I started riding a fixie.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. It's cyclical, I'm sure. Um, so I started riding a fixie then to get around town, and that was the last bike I purchased before I made one for myself,

I studied, uh, a somewhat esoteric field of statistics called, like, uh, financial math. So it was taught in the Department of Statistics and Actuarial Sciences at the university I went to, so that's like the people who do insurance math. Basically figuring out how much your life insurance policy should cost based on, you know, statistics and market values and things like that.

So, um, yeah, so I was at school for quite a while. I, seven years, I think. Um, studying that I have a master's degree in it and then ended up doing nothing with that degree, uh, in practical use, like I should have been working as like a finance math kind of guy, you know, so didn't really

[00:07:05]Craig Dalton (Host): And then you had mentioned, you know, you had that fixed gear bike that was the only one you had and the next one was one you built yourself. That's for most of us. That's quite a massive leap and journey. What was going on there? I mean, you had, you develop sort of a passion for the sport of cycling. Was it more the idea of frame building and how did you even begin to acquire the skills to manufacture your first bike?

[00:07:30]Jonathan: Yeah, so that, that's maybe where the academic journey ends and then what I've done to earn a living, uh, commenced after that. Um, I, my wife and I own and operate a machine shop and, um, what we started the business with was, um, again, another esoteric thing, uh, pattern making is what it's called. And that's the, the trade that is involved with making the tools that foundries

[00:07:58]Craig Dalton (Host): And how did,

[00:07:59]Jonathan: castings.

[00:08:00]Craig Dalton (Host): I'm curious, Jonathan. So how did, I mean, how did you even see that as an opportunity? Did either of you have, you know, ties into the manufacturing world to begin with?

[00:08:10]Jonathan: Yeah, absolutely. So my dad is a mechanical engineer by education, and he owns and operates a company that, um, basically repairs, refurbishes, remakes large industrial pumps. Um So they, they oftentimes begin life as a casting, like a large chunk of, uh, iron or steel or bronze, whatever it might be. So when I was done university and kind of doing a little bit of soul searching, a friend of mine who's a few years older and was sort of, um, not thrilled with the job he had, I would say, or maybe that's not the right way to say it, but was looking for a change, um, He is, uh, he's a civil engineer by training and approached my dad cause he knew he was self employed and said, uh, Hey Pat, what do you think of like going out on my own?

Got any ideas? I'm pretty handy guy. And my dad said to him, like, Hey, I think you should look into pattern making. The guys are all old. You really can't go to school to learn that stuff. It's all sort of apprenticeship based and they're kind of phasing out their businesses, you know? Um, so there could be an opportunity there.

So Stefan, my friend, and I, um, I took like a night class at a local community college to learn how to do 3D modeling and was kind of pretty handy with SolidWorks. And the modern way of making patterns is to use CNC machines to carve 3D shapes, typically out of like blocks of foam or wood or, uh, tooling board, it's called, which is like a hard plastic.

And those objects that you create are what the foundry uses to create their sand molds. So picture like a cast iron frying pan. The way that's made is they melt iron in a pot and they pour it into a mold that's made out of sand and the mold has the shape of the iron, uh, the cast iron frying pan inside of it.

So my obligation or sort of the service that we offered was not only to produce the tooling, but I was also. You have to design it to work for the foundry. So, uh, cast iron frying pan is a relatively simple object, but we got, over the years, as my skill set grew, got involved with, um, some relatively complicated castings for, like, world leading Aerospace foundries.

And, um, so yeah, Stefan and I ran the business together for about a year, year and a bit. He was living in a different, like he lived in Toronto property. We're in Hamilton, which is about an hour outside. And, um, he had, uh, his first kid in that time. And I was like super hungry to get the business going. And so we were kind of on different paces and there's a little bit of friction that resulted because of that.

So we parted ways and then. We're still good friends, but, um, I kind of ran the business on my own and then my wife, Elise, came on, um, as we started to grow a bit, move facilities, and then started to expand more out of just pattern making to do, um, machining as well, which is, a lot of times, foundries have these metal castings that they produce that are relatively intricate shapes that need some more precise operations carried out on them.

Um, you could, like, an example might be, like, an engine block in a car or turbocharger, like, objects that people, like, think of more readily than some other things I got involved with. So you've got this object that's relatively crude when it comes out of the foundry, and it might need a bearing put in it or threads added so you could bolt it together.

So that, that's an operation that typically happens in some sort of machining setup. So we had this customer base of all these foundries that trusted us to make these relatively complicated things like patterns are, are big, like organic shapes, lots of 3D things that need to be accurate and go together and work.

Um, so it was a pretty easy thing for us to say to them, Hey, you know, he trusts us to do this. Would you allow us to machine your castings for you? Like, can we quote on that work? And the idea for us there was, um, kind of more repeat business. The thing about, uh, uh, pattern tool, uh, is you only make one of them.

Hopefully the customer is not coming back to you for another one right away, because the idea with a mold or a tool or something of that nature is that it costs a lot of money to make, but it allows you to make a ton of parts. Um, so think of that as like a mold for a carbon fiber frame. It's the same kind of idea.

You've got this thing that costs a lot of money is really complicated, but it allows you to put, uh, a basic material into it and get

[00:12:39]Craig Dalton (Host): And then you're in your example of like the engine block, they would have pulled something out of the mold that was a bit rough around the edges, maybe not as precise as it needed to be to fit. You would bring it back into your CNC capabilities and really use the tool to, to make precise edges and cuts and shapes around the basic block.

[00:13:01]Jonathan: exactly.

[00:13:01]Craig Dalton (Host): Gotcha.

[00:13:03]Jonathan: Yeah. And like a lot of that stuff would have happened more historically in the, the cycling industry when they used a lot of investment castings for lugs and things like that, or, you know, a lot of that type of product has moved away, like, um, in favor of probably more cost competitive and superior products.

Uh, but yeah, like, uh, there would have been a whole bunch of examples. I'm sure old shift levers and things like that die castings

[00:13:28]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah, I remember.

[00:13:29]Jonathan: um. The, you get a

[00:13:31]Craig Dalton (Host): remember in the early days of mountain biking, the wave of CNC machined parts that came out, preferably color anodized that were all the rage at the time.

[00:13:41]Jonathan: Yeah.

[00:13:42]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah.

[00:13:43]Jonathan: Yeah. So it's, so that's sort of the, the story on, and then we got involved in injection molding and doing, um, work for the government during COVID to make PCR testing consumables, uh, so that involved like some pretty complicated work in terms of reverse engineering, um, yeah, plastic components, getting a clean room set up,

[00:14:05]Craig Dalton (Host): And what was that additional equipment that you invested in at the time?

[00:14:09]Jonathan: Yeah. So we were, we got a grant from the government to set it up. Uh, so we had to put some capital into it for sure. That's how it worked, but you know, we felt like we're definitely doing the right thing when North America was kind of running out of those parts. The whole world was running out of them because when, when did like they ever see a demand spike like that in terms of lab consumables, right?

So, uh, yeah, we got that up and running and then. worked our butts off for two years to make it all happen. And then that's kind of what I would say gave me the financial

[00:14:44]Craig Dalton (Host): So that's that brings us to maybe what 2000 2022.

[00:14:48]Jonathan: yeah, honestly, man, the whole pandemic is a blur in sort of timelines. Yeah, I think so. That sounds about right. Um, yeah, I would say July of 2022 is when we shipped our last part, um, to fulfill the order to the government. And, um, yeah,

[00:15:06]Craig Dalton (Host): And was there a driver behind you saying like, Oh, I want to make a bike? Had you like increased your cycling during the pandemic? Yeah.

[00:15:15]Jonathan: So it's another pandemic story of, I'm sure you remember trying to buy bike stuff. Um, so yeah, the, the, all along, I've been, I've always had a passion for making things, right? Like, using my hands to create an object, like I, like, when I was in school, I worked in, like, fine dining restaurants, like, 40 hours a week.

That was kind of my first form of, you know, trading my time for money in terms of making things. Uh, so the, the shop that I've built up over the years, I've got some really nice equipment. I've paid for it all out of cash flow by doing other people's work. And I've always wanted a product line of my own stuff.

Um, not that I don't like working with other people and you're certainly exposed to a lot of really interesting and challenging problems to solve when other people are bringing you their stuff. But it's a bit of a, like, you know, everybody's got masters, even when I started making my own product, I've got to sell it now.

So that's a whole other thing. But, um, yeah, it's a bit of a, always wanted to make something and I've always been into bikes. So that's why I was saying earlier, kind of combine those two things. And the big push was, um, yeah, just not being able to buy a new bike during the pandemic. I was riding

[00:16:28]Craig Dalton (Host): and given the equipment that you had in hand at that time, can you describe the bike that you were able to make?

[00:16:35]Jonathan: yeah, well, uh, I had originally thought like I'm watching Cobra frameworks as Or yeah, Cobra frame buildings, YouTube channel, how to weld a bike. And I ordered a bunch of chromoly tubing. I've got welding equipment here and milling machines. So I was like, I'm going to just make myself a bike and that's it, right?

Like that's going to be, it'll be very, it'll be a piece of junk because I'm not that good at welding and I've never done one before, but the, it'll be the thing that I made and I'm riding it. And that's cool. Um, and then the tube shot sat on the shelf for like two years. Because it's like, it's not, that's not what I do, right?

That's not my, it felt like too fussy. I was going to have to be like sitting at a welding table, filing things. So the bike that I decided to make was, um, a format that is gaining popularity right now with the advent of 3d printing, which is a lugged. construction frame where the lugs are alloy and I'm using carbon fiber tubes.

So, um, I had actually originally, like I'm really good at 3d modeling. That's one of my main skill sets. So designing the bike took like a day, less than that. And then I was going to have the lugs printed, like 3d printed, like everyone else is doing. It's a pretty, um, in comparison to CNC machine shops that could produce a part like that.

In terms of intricacy, it's relatively easy to find vendors that do 3D printing as a job shopping service. Like, that's kind of the main

[00:18:03]Craig Dalton (Host): And are those, are those, uh, 3d printing? Are they printing in titanium or aluminum or both? Okay.

[00:18:10]Jonathan: both, there's stainless steels, there's all sorts of alloys coming out, there's different forms of printing. And then we, because we do aerospace work, like we had our aerospace designation working with foundries and machine shops that do that type of stuff. Um, we're involved with some of the like, Canadian leaders in terms of operating that equipment and having those processes validated.

So I sent them to the engineers and they said you're not actually going to ride that thing. Are you? I was like, what are you talking about? I was like, yeah, I'm going to write it. And like, well, I don't know if we would like, what do you mean? And that's when I started to like do a bit more research into, um, the metallurgy of 3d prints and would have needed to beef them up more than I thought to get it to work.

But the main thing that

[00:18:56]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. Cause I often, when I see companies using the 3d printing, it's often. around the rear dropout. They might highlight that they're doing it back there, but I don't recall of anybody doing a head tube, for example, in the 3D printing style.

[00:19:11]Jonathan: most head tubes on bikes that are logged with 3D prints, they actually segment a piece of carbon in there, um, in between, or a piece of titanium pipe and weld it at the two ends, because that particular shape might actually exceed the build volume of some printers. It's not that they, cost wise it doesn't make sense, it's that it, you're literally talking about a little microwave oven.

[00:19:33]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah.

[00:19:34]Jonathan: to cram all the lugs into there. Um, and it's the build volume might be like nine, 10 inches cubed. So if you've got a head tube in there, that's, you know, for a taller person, it just won't even fit. So yeah, there was the, the structural element is one thing it can be overcome. The, what floored me was the cost.

Um, these guys are like, often engineers are also in gear guys, right? And they're into cars and biking and stuff like that. So a lot of them knew of these brands that are doing it. And they're kind of saying like, uh, I don't know. We can't with our own cost structure on what it costs to operate these machines.

And kind of how long it takes to print something. We don't get it. So then I kind of went, okay, you know what? For that amount of money, um, that we're talking just to build myself a bike. I can, I can just take a couple. Blocks of aluminum that I have on the shelf and sacrifice a few days of my life to see if I can machine them Um, so I made myself a fixie that that was the first bike and I just bought Carbon tubes from McMaster car like carbon fiber tube.

McMaster car is like, uh, I don't know the Amazon of industrial Ordering so they're they're awesome. They've got everything next day shipping kind of thing. So I got all this stuff and I glued the thing up manually and then I started riding it around, um, around town and going out to group rides, which I hadn't done before.

And people started asking questions about it. You know, most bike people are, they pay attention to stuff like that, whether it's a saddle bike they would ever ride themselves. Maybe not the case, but They know, right? And like, everyone's got

[00:21:07]Craig Dalton (Host): your bicycles have a very distinct look that is going to get people to ask questions. And for the listener, maybe who hasn't, isn't able to kind of visualize what a lugged construction looks like, you've got the head tube. With a little bit of kind of aluminum coming out for the down tube and the top tube, you've got another lug and bottom bracket set up in a similar fashion.

And similarly around the C tube and the rear stay and the carbon fiber tube basically goes inside that aluminum, that lug as we're talking about, and is bonded together in some way to kind of. Create the frame that's somewhat accurate. Jonathan,

[00:21:47]Jonathan: I think that's a pretty

[00:21:48]Craig Dalton (Host): I've never thought about describing lugs to someone in their ears. Not looking at a picture

[00:21:53]Jonathan: Yeah, like, Colagno, Cologno? I don't know how to say the name properly. Like, even their carbon fi Colnago. There you go. They're, they're, uh, Their carbon fiber bikes are logged. So just like there's a step, like most bikes, carbon fiber bikes are made in multiple pieces. They just seen them and sand them and you don't see it because it's under the paint or they might do clear coat

[00:22:13]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah, exactly.

[00:22:14]Jonathan: wrap or something.

But yeah, anyways, there's a bit of a step and it's, yeah. The, and the, and the first bike, I, it's like bright aluminum. I just left it raw. I didn't put any of the, um, kind of plating that we do on the ones you would have seen. And I use like a more old school looking carbon fiber with like the checkered weave.

So it's like quite, um, yeah. And it's built like a steel bike, like skinny tubes, like I think inch and an eighth or inch and a quarter down tube. Like, uh, yeah, so it was, so I started riding it around and people were saying like, Hey, you know, like go look at, then they list brands X, Y, and Z. Go look at those guys and what they're charging for a bike.

And I thought like, holy cow, like that's, uh, that's, I could do this again and charge less than that and make a pretty good go of it. Um, so that's when I kind of went like, okay, maybe I should try to spend a bit more time not doing it as a one off, but think about how I would build it with the skill set and resources that I have at my disposal and to kind of rethink the construction methodology a bit.

So, as much as my bike is like a object at the end, what I'm, what I really focus on when I'm thinking about the bike is, Everything that goes into making it and optimizing the design so that it can produce the best possible result, uh, in a really predictable manner

[00:23:36]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. And in riding that first fixed gear bike and using those off the shelf carbon fiber tubes. Did you kind of recognize something in the tubing that left something to be desired?

[00:23:47]Jonathan: Um, are you, is this like leading towards why I started making my own tubes? Yeah, um, so yeah, they're, they're roll wrapped, so that's a process where you take sheets of pre pranked cloth and picture like rolling pastry on a rolling pin. You've got a 2D sheet on your table and you roll it over. Um, so you're kind of at the, like, you're constrained to what the fabric itself will allow you to do in terms of laying the fiber in certain orientations and what resin is already in it.

Um. So it's, it makes a more limited tube in terms of strength, but honestly, the main motivating factor for me starting to wind the tubes in house was that sourcing stuff in Canada can be problematic for a relatively small economy, you know, and like, there's the border. So every, all these tubes that I had access to were coming out of the States, I'm paying import duties on them.

I'm paying in a currency that's worth a lot more than ours. So when I looked at what it was going to cost me to buy a set of tubes from Rockwest, which is what I made the first bunch of bikes with, like I was working with them on the tubing, um, I just thought like, okay, maybe I can, if the whole idea is to try to optimize the process and drive costs down a bit, I thought I got to do this in house, right?

Like the, the tubes were costing me a lot more than the aluminum that goes into the bike. And that's like aerospace grade coming from a certified mill with traceability certs. And you know, it's. Good stuff. So, um, then there's the option of like when you're using, or option, that's the wrong word, sorry, there, there's the limitation that when you're buying an off the shelf product, you're constrained to how that is made, right?

So the tubes I could have spec'd out to Rockwest, like, Hey, could you make me the tubes with this recipe? And they'd say, yes. But one thing I wanted to maintain, um, as wide open the variable set as possible was like making bikes customizable. Right? So like, say you're talking to a, a frame builder that's using any type of alloy.

They're at the mercy of what tubes they can buy. They can't tune beyond that, right? They can maybe squish them a little bit or change the shape of them to get some different bending compliance in them, but the material is what it is. Um, so it, with internalizing the tube manufacturing, I've got a considerable amount of control over making the tubes behave differently.

Um, so it looks like a fairly basic bike in profile. It looks kind of as like a classical shape in terms of if you overlaid a welded steel bike over it, they'd almost look the same, right? Like, I use a relatively large down tube, but, um, but I wanted, like, I, I think carbon fiber is an excellent material, but to produce a carbon fiber bike in a traditional sense.

Um, you need a mold and then you're not doing custom geometry at that point, right? So I wanted to maintain the ability for every bike to be both custom geometry and have a lot of the benefits of

[00:26:42]Craig Dalton (Host): Can you describe what the filament wound carbon fiber, what's that process like?

[00:26:47]Jonathan: Yeah, so instead of roll wrapping where you're taking prepreg sheets, um, you have a machine, it's like a CNC machine that I built. Um, that operates like a lathe, so a lathe is where you have a spinning thing on a single axis rotating and something tracing back and forth along it. So, I've got a mandrel that's spinning and I, uh, like a spool of carbon fiber is on this carriage and it goes back and forth and I can basically roll or wind the single strand of carbon fiber onto this tube.

So I, I got to do the math again. I did it a few months ago and I forget the number, but I think to make a tube set for a bike, there's like 20, 000 linear feet. that I lay up in a really precise manner. Um, so we build up the tube in layers and we can have different layers for different tubes, different rider thicknesses.

And then what the winder allows me to do is put the fiber down in different orientations. So like, I'm not, I don't have to buy prepreg fabric from someone where it's only unidirectional, it's only. 45 or 90. Um, I can go any angle I want and put down as much or as little as I want in certain areas, and that's all done

[00:28:00]Craig Dalton (Host): that sort of pastry analysis, uh, comparison you used, is there the equivalent of the rolling pin inside that you remove at the end after it's sort of wound into shape?

[00:28:11]Jonathan: yeah. So our, that's where our process is differentiated once again, from people who roll wrap is I don't cure on the mandrel. So most production roll wrapping places or other frame builder, or sorry, um, filament wound tubes, what they do is they have a really precise rod that they wind onto, the mandrel, and then whether it's, you can use, so just to really muddy this a bit more, you can use two forms of fiber to it.

You can have prepreg fiber, so it's a single strand with the resin already in it. Or you can do what I'm doing, which is wet winding, where I buy dry spools of fiber, and then I'm mixing my own resin, um, and the fiber gets wetted on the way to the mandrel. Um, both systems require a cure cycle after to set the resin, but with the prepreg toe, you're subjected to the same constraints that prepreg is in terms of, you know, needing to store the stuff in the freezer.

It has a shelf life. You've got no say over the resin whatsoever. Um. So for us, I can mix and match the recipe for whatever I want. We use some really high performance resins and that's something that I think, you know, the bike industry doesn't talk a lot about. They talk about the fiber. I've got Toray T1100 in my frame or Ultra High Mod in my frame here, but no one talks about the stuff that actually holds it all together, which is

[00:29:28]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. I've never heard of it beyond a technical discussion.

[00:29:31]Jonathan: so we spent a lot of time

[00:29:32]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. Yeah. I would say, I would say I would encourage the listener while they're listening to this in their earphones to go onto your Instagram account because a lot of this discussion will become more visual. If you start looking through some of the framework bikes, Instagram stories, you'll get sucked into this process and everything Jonathan's saying will come together visually for you.

[00:29:54]Jonathan: I appreciate the plug. So I think the question I'm taking a really long time to answer is like, what happens once the fiber is on the rod? Most places, what they do is to get some amount of consolidation is they wrap tape over it once it's on the mandrel. Kind of like wrapping a hockey stick or a golf club grip or a tennis racket or whatever.

So they've got an additional head that has what looks like packing tape and they pull on it kind of hard and then try and wrap, wrap it under tension to consolidate that fiber down onto the mandrel. Then that whole thing goes in an oven. Some guys will vacuum bag it depending on what you're doing. So that means they put a big plastic sleeve over it and pull vacuum on the sleeve.

So that'll give you, I think it works out to about 14 PSI of consolidation, um, and then, then they have to remove the rod from the carbon fiber once it's cured, pull it out the end, and you're left with your final carbon fiber tube. So what we do that's a little different is, while the fiber is still wet, like the glue, the epoxy glue hasn't set up yet, mandrel, and then I place it into a mold, like a, The mold that has two hemispheres in it.

So I slip a bladder inside of it and then, um, expand the fiber into the mold to give it a really accurate shape and much higher consolidation than you can achieve with, um, traditional

[00:31:21]Craig Dalton (Host): Interesting. You mentioned you, um,

[00:31:24]Jonathan: So that there's, there's a few motivations for that. One is to get like much higher quality product without, because when you're wet winding, um, air and stuff gets worked in.

It's really hard to avoid little micro air bubbles and tiny little air bubbles in carbon fiber is what causes the material to break down over time more rapidly. It's if the, if the plastic starts to fatigue, the fibers get overworked and then the thing kind of breaks down. So the higher quality you can make the product coming out of the mold, the longer it's going to last, the better performance you get out of it.

The other thing for us is I wanted really accurate. diameter on the outside of the tube because that's how we glue it into the lugs. Um, so if you can imagine the process that I described where you tape the outside of it, you're left with a fairly coarse outer surface on your filament wound tube. So most people have to sand it quite heavily to get it either dimensionally accurate or, you know, looking good.

So that's another step I wanted to avoid. Like my whole thing is about trying to minimize the amount of human

[00:32:26]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah, I think when many of us look around our garages at the carbon fiber frames, uh, clearly like they, they must've been sanded. And then obviously like the paint and everything gets it smoothed over. So you don't see if anybody's seen like a raw construction of a carbon fiber frame, they look a lot rougher around the edges than the finished painted products do.

But in your case, there's nowhere to hide. You know, the, the, the product is everything.

[00:32:52]Jonathan: You could, like, like you, what you could do to rectify it, and I think some other builders do need to do this, is like, you've got little pinholes everywhere, you've got little wrinkles in the surface, you lay on a clear coat, you mix up your epoxy, or some other finishing agent, you lay it down, and then you sand it.

And then you repeat that process three or four times until you've got something that looks really nice, but it's, you can kind of think of it as like the, the mosquito trapped in amber, you know, there's like, your carbon fiber tube is in there, but you have layers of extra resin and clear coat on the outside to make it look pristine, but there's actually a lot of like little plastic and paint on the

[00:33:31]Craig Dalton (Host): So we've given the listener a little bit of an understanding of like the process that you go through and all the, your background as a machine shop first, and why you became suited to kind of create these frames with the process you have today, what is a customer engagement look like, how do they work with you?

How do you leverage? All of that customization capability you've just described to create a unique ride property for a customer's bike.

[00:33:59]Jonathan: That's a question that I don't have a, I don't think I have a satisfying answer to for most people. I'm, I'm coming to this from an extremely technical background where, like, you have to measure and prove everything and, uh, ride feel is totally subjective. You know, there's no, there's no, um, industry standard guidelines for how you test for ride feel.

So people will say to me, Oh, I ride your bike. If you could. talk more, or I'd buy a bike from you if you talk more about how it feels and all these things. So my, I would say my thesis on it is that torsional stiffness is really important. So again, coming back, there's so many layers of like, I could go into techie deep dives on everything, but the, the torsional strength you can get from a filament wound product is like exceptionally high.

It's how they make, like, really high performing, um, motorsport driveshafts and stuff like that. So, torsion refers to how much twisting the downtube can handle, basically. Um, that's the main structural element there. Uh, so, if you wanted to make an object that had the same strength as our downtube, and sort of, in terms of torsion, they would be really stiff in all your other dimensions, right?

It would be an uncomfortable bike to ride. So, I really focus on, um, like, speed and comfort. I would say, uh, you'd think those things might be at odds with one another, but the efficiencies from sort of the bike, not wanting to twist it, like. Yeah, when you pull on the handlebars and push on the bottom bracket, you're trying to torque the down tube, right?

So, I can make that strong enough to resist that, that you're not being inefficient during pedaling or riding and you're gonna corner well. But it, it's not unnecessarily stiff in plane, so you don't get like, uh, a chattery feel when you're going over bumps. So, yeah, but I, I don't like, I don't have an answer that I think is satisfying.

I, I, I, Honestly, I was researching this last night, going through like academic literature for what places, like, where do you put accelerometers and strain gauges on a bike to try and figure out ride feel? And there's no, there's no answer. And then even if you, even if I come up with a rigorous testing methodology, I say my bike's a seven.

Like, what does that mean to you, Craig, when you're going to buy it? Right. So I think within custom frames, the customer is taking a little bit of a risk. Because they can't go to the showroom floor and try my bike, right? And even if they did try my bike, um, that was built for a different rider, there's no guarantee that the one I make is going to be, you know, I'm not a mind reader and a psychic.

I don't know how to translate those things. But, um, for people who are very concerned about that, I don't have a satisfying answer. I don't think I can't tell them I can make you exactly what you want. The things we look at are your weight, your riding style. Um, your preferences in terms of stiffness, like just having a sort of verbal conversation about that, and like describe what you're looking for, your power output, like FTP, things like that.

Um, yeah, and

[00:36:59]Craig Dalton (Host): the challenge with your process that you can make it overly stiff and it's backing it off to the

[00:37:06]Jonathan: Uh, no, I don't, I don't think we'd ever be able to, I, I, I maybe could if I redesign things, but no, we're not going to be like, uh, you know, early 2000s, we feel like riding a board. That's like our, our two profiles in a lot of places are slender, our chainstays are small, they're strong, they're very strong.

But, um, you know, I think if, if you're someone who comes from riding like pretty hardcore road bikes or like time trial bikes, our bike is not going to feel, um, too stiff to you. There's no, no, I'm making something that I want to ride for a couple hours and have fun on, and we can stiffen things up for sure if that's what you're looking for.

But I. You know, like there's the whole conversation of, um, pedaling efficiency, aero gains, all those types of things. Like I'm not making a type of bike that anyone is going to race on, right? Like people who are racing and are concerned about aero gains and drivetrain efficiency and all that stuff are, they're probably on, they want to be on the BMC or the Canyon or the Factor or whatever other guys are racing on.

So for me to try to tailor the bike construction methodology to capture that little bit more of the market, Even if I had a product that met their needs, I don't think I'd have a very easy time selling it because it's not got, you know, it's not what other people are racing. So, um, yeah, I've, I've. Tried to make a bike that is really enjoyable for most people.

Like even if you are a serious racer, train on one of our bikes, you're going to have a lot

[00:38:33]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So, I mean, just to be clear. So for the would be gravel cyclists looking at one of your gravel frames, what size tire clearance can you get? And do you sort of in your mind say this is sort of a, this is an all around gravel bike. This is going to get it in that sweet spot of you can do almost everything from including racing with it to, you know, your local group ride, gravel rides, et cetera,

[00:38:59]Jonathan: Yeah. I think that comes down to what do you define a gravel bike as, right? So we, because everything is custom geometry, I can take it from being basically like a nineties, late eighties mountain bike, um, to. Basically a super fast road bike that you can fit gravel tires on, right? Like it's, I can do the whole spectrum.

So I kind of didn't answer this part of the question that you asked about what the customer experience is like. Everything we do is like, I haven't made two bikes that are the same yet. Right. And I'm on a boat. Bike 20 at this point. So we can do all your normal fit stuff. But then again, yeah, the question of tire clearance, drivetrain impingement.

Um, I'd say, uh, we would have a tough time stuffing a 50 millimeter tire in with a two by drivetrain with one by no problem. Um, upfront. So we're, uh, classified OEM. I don't know if you're familiar with those. Uh, yeah. The internal shifting hub. So if people like really want huge tire clearance and two by that's like one of the things I can lean on there.

Um, but yeah, like I think my, I've made myself, uh, kind of an all road gravel leaning bike and a gravel bike. That's got a really slack head tube and I ride it with 45s on it all the time. Uh, so yeah, we can, we can kind of do whatever you're looking for. I think. Gravel as a segment has a lot more variability than like a road bike, you know, there's fast gravel Um, you know, whatever slack bike packing type gravel.

So yeah, we can kind of do Anything really and that that is one of the challenges we have is like, okay I'm telling you about how diverse our system is in terms of its output and we can tune tubes and all this stuff It

[00:40:39]Craig Dalton (Host): 100%. Yeah.

[00:40:40]Jonathan: For the customer, right? Like they can't, it's, it's, it's too much.

So that's why in the new year, I'm working on it right now. We want to offer like pre made geometry essentially at a slightly better price than our customs. We're going to have a couple of geometry tables, um, for, you know, road, all road, gravel, maybe even do two gravels, like the fast gravel and the, but that'll kind of like, which is all road,

[00:41:02]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. Yeah. Having gone through my own, uh, custom

[00:41:05]Jonathan: And just to kind

[00:41:07]Craig Dalton (Host): overwhelmed with choice all of a sudden when someone says they can make you anything all of a sudden, it's hard not to become paralyzed. And it took me a while. And fortunately, I'm surrounded by lots of advisors in this front to help that helped me kind of just narrow down the constraints.

Of what I wanted and then kind of work with the frame builder to say, yeah, this makes sense.

[00:41:28]Jonathan: yeah. So our, like. Easiest customers, fastest, like, time from first interaction to when the bike is built are people who have commissioned lots of custom bikes already, right? They don't, like, they're not doubting their decision. They know what they're looking for. They know they're fit. Um, so they're not belabouring these decisions of like, oh, what's a 0.

2 degree difference on my head tube gonna do, right? Like, they're, it's To them, it's not a big deal. So that's where it's, someone said it to me at, at made actually is like, Oh, what you want is freedom from choice in terms of like having the, the, the product, you know, take this or leave it, you know, that's, if you want to do the full custom thing, we can do that, but maybe it's easier for you to just cross shop geometry tables on like bike insights.

And that's what you, how you want to do it. So I need to kind of make that, um, available for people. So yeah, it is, it is totally overwhelming. And I think it's, so there is no customer interaction for me right now that isn't like one click buy on the website, right? Like I'm, there's a bunch of emails back and forth.

There's drawing revisions, there's discussions about what you're looking for, what bikes you currently have, um, and what your goals are for the build. So yeah, it's, it, it's involved. And that's part of the reason for shifting to like sort of the tiered model of like prebuilt at one price. And. Full custom at another price because there's a ton of time involved in custom where I can just like Turn on the CNC machine and make make the size 56 all road and you get your thing a couple weeks later You know, there's

[00:43:06]Craig Dalton (Host): You had mentioned in this conversation sort of this journey to becoming part of the bike industry. Is, is there anything that stands out that surprised you? About the way people buy bikes or what it's like being a bicycle manufacturer.

[00:43:20]Jonathan: no everything. I'm I'm yeah, we talked about this a bit before we started But yeah, like that's the whole side of it. That's It's a total mystery to me, like I'm, I'm a like tech focused, fact based kind of person and to try to navigate, um, the mind of the consumer amidst all the information they're giving, given from general marketing and you know, what, what's important, what's not, it's, and, and convincing someone that what you're doing is worthwhile.

Is really challenging. That's, that's going to be the kind of crux of my success or failure. It's not like, I think we make a good product and I can't guarantee you. Sorry. I think my heater just kicked on in the shop. Did that come

[00:44:03]Craig Dalton (Host): No worries.

[00:44:04]Jonathan: microphone a bit? Okay. Um, so yeah, like that, that, that's going to be the make or break for me.

Can I sell enough bikes to keep it, uh,

[00:44:14]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. Yeah. It's, it,

[00:44:16]Jonathan: So

[00:44:16]Craig Dalton (Host): so interesting

[00:44:17]Jonathan: inside the mind.

[00:44:18]Craig Dalton (Host): your business over Instagram because you're, you're so, um, open about sharing your manufacturing process and open to engineering debates and discussions with would be commenters on your Instagram stories that I do think, I mean, from an outsider's perspective, Jonathan, I think you, you showcase the quality of your work in those discussions.

And you have always shown up in every story that I've, I've watched in our, our previous conversations, you show up as someone who's very thoughtful about the things you're doing. And obviously there are different ways of doing things, but you are clear about why you are doing things the way you are doing that.

[00:45:00]Jonathan: Yeah. So that's always been what's worked for me is sort of the behind the scenes, lay it out for what it is. Um, I think what a lot of people have told me in that sort of marketing branding thing is like, you need to take it a step further. You need to not just show what you're doing, but you need to explain why it's good.

And that's where I think I draw a little bit of a personal line because it's like, I'm not, I don't want to take it to, I'm telling you what you should think. I want to leave it at let me show you and you decide for yourself and I don't know if

[00:45:29]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah, I think, I mean, I think the challenge now just my two senses, um, given the small number of frames you have out there in the world is just getting rider feedback, testimonials, reviews, other people riding bikes that are willing to comment on things like ride quality to kind of bring it all together, because as I just said, like, I do think that you've yeah.

You've established through your social accounts that trust in your skill as a manufacturer. Now people are just wanting to see what do people say when they've got one of these underneath them?

[00:46:02]Jonathan: Yeah I've had people literally DM me and said like there I've got some review bikes out there with Certain reviewers and I've had people say when so and so writes their review as long as it's not bad. I'm buying a bike It's like okay great I think that's good that you need that little like last bit of confirmation that it's not a crapshoot but Like I'm, I'm over here kind of feeling a little vulnerable to be honest, like you put yourself out there.

I'm selling bikes. I don't know what expectations I had in terms of how fast sales would take off. I think, like my wife keeps reminding me, like you've been doing this for a year, like maybe you have unreasonable expectations. Just keep your head down and keep like doing good stuff. So yeah, I think you're right.

That'll just take a little bit of time, awareness.

[00:46:46]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. And then

[00:46:47]Jonathan: Yeah, all those things of

[00:46:49]Craig Dalton (Host): would say, and I maybe I've missed this on your account to the degree in which you are writing your own product and out there. Just sharing a little bit of, of your own commentary again, like everybody's going to take it with a, Hey, this is one rider and, you know, maybe it's a very self interested rider's perspective, but I, you always have struck me as someone who's honest.

So I'm not thinking you're going to film a video of yourself riding a gravel trail saying this is the fastest bike ever been produced on earth.

[00:47:17]Jonathan: so yeah, I might've given, uh, discredited myself already in this conversation in that regard of, I wrote a fixie for the last 20 years, right? Like what's my frame of reference? I've, I've said this to people and they look at me like, Oh my God, this guy must be a total idiot. Where I say like, I'm not a bike guy.

Like, I'm a cyclist. I love riding bikes, but I'm not a guy that's reading the magazines every month, seeing what the latest and greatest is, or knowing what the trends are. Like, I'm kind of outside of all of that. So I think, to your question about what are the biggest kind of shocks is, um, yeah, the whole branding, marketing side of it.

I was, I really underestimated that. I thought like a good product, a good, well made product is worthy of, um, you know, at least consideration from a buyer, but there's so much information out there, right? There it's overwhelming and it changes

[00:48:06]Craig Dalton (Host): hundred percent. I mean, I think what,

[00:48:08]Jonathan: me saying, I'm enjoying riding my bike.

It's like, yeah, of course I'm going to say like,

[00:48:14]Craig Dalton (Host): oh man, well, I mean, this is great. Jonathan, just one final question on like the customer journey. Like if someone was to come to you with a custom project and assume that they kind of are in the know and got to understand the basics of what they want. Once you kind of locked in design back and forth, how long does it take you to produce a bicycle?

And are you typically selling a complete bike or just a frame?

[00:48:35]Jonathan: so I'll answer the last part of that question first. We do both. Um, I would say. The farther away the bike's getting shipped, the less likely it is that it's a complete, if that makes any sense. Like I'm in Canada, I'm sourcing components here, so our American customers, it might make more sense for them to work with their local shop.

To fill out the build and I just send the frames work and handlebars or whatever they're buying down there. Um, local people have bought full builds. I've sent stuff, yeah, internationally as far as Japan more recently, and those are typically frames. So we do both. We do want to know about component, um, compatibility, even if we're not the ones.

We're doing the full build, you know, that's an important part of making sure everything works for the customer when they get it. Um, so the way we work is we take a deposit, uh, 500 right now to reserve a spot in the build queue and to kind of do that back and start the discussion on what you're looking for.

That deposit's non refundable, but it gets applied to the balance of whatever the build cost comes out to at the end. Um, and from the approval, like some people approve same day. They know exactly what they want. Might go to production later that day or the next morning. Uh, it's, I would say it's typically about a month right now from start to finish to build the bike.

Like, it's, there's, it's not a lot of my time, but there's a bunch of steps where you wait in between. The main one being that I send the lugs out for plating for, uh, corrosion resistance and Uh, and that, you know, if I finish them on a Monday, I ship them out a Tuesday or Wednesday, I get them back a week and a half later, uh, in that time I can have made the tubes.

So, yeah, it's our lead time right now is about two months. I think we've got some backlog, a small backlog of orders to work through, some review bikes going out and. Yeah, so it's, we're pretty quick, I think, like our, the theoretical throughput on what I can do in a year, uh, on our current equipment is

[00:50:41]Craig Dalton (Host): Okay.

[00:50:42]Jonathan: 200 bikes. So I don't expect to be selling that many. If I was,

[00:50:47]Craig Dalton (Host): Well, we'll get you there in time. Jonathan. I'm good. I'm excited to see this journey ahead of you.

[00:50:53]Jonathan: Thanks.

[00:50:54]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. Cool. Well, I'll put links to everything in the show notes. So people know how to find you again for the listener. Definitely follow the frameworks framework bikes, Instagram account, which I'll link to as well.

You can get all the behind the scenes. You're going to want a friend of mine who tipped me off to your brand when we were at Manufacturer's porn, which I think is appropriate.

[00:51:15]Jonathan: No, Yeah, the website, uh, it's there. It needs some work. Like I said, we're working on the kind of program for 2024 in terms of the stock sizes. Throwing some more information up there. It's just really it's a placeholder website right now. So definitely needs

[00:51:31]Craig Dalton (Host): Right on. Thanks for all the time, Jonathan.

[00:51:34]Jonathan: Thank you

[00:51:34]Craig Dalton (Host): that's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. Big, thanks to Jonathan from frameworks for coming on board. And telling us all about his journey and manufacturing process for those beautiful bikes. Additional thanks. Goes out to our friends at hammerhead. For sponsoring the show many times this year, truly appreciate their support as I couldn't do what I do without some of their underwriting.

If you were able to support the show, a couple of things you can do for me, ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated. They really help. With discoverability. Or if you're able to financially contribute to the show, simply visit buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride. Until next time here's to finding some dirt onto your wheels. 

Welcome to another episode of The Gravel Ride Podcast 🎙️. Today, our guest is Kyle Rancourt from Pinebury Clothing, a quality-focused, US-manufactured cycling 🚴‍♀️ apparel brand.

Kyle takes us through his journey into the cycling industry 🛠️ and Pinebury's specific focus on Merino wool for its inherent performance benefits. He walks us through his vision, design and the critical role manufacturing in the US plays in their brand's commitment to quality, and sustainability 🌎.

One thing is for sure after this conversation, Pinebury's Nuyarn performance wool isn't the wool of yester-year! Give a listen to learn more 🎧.

Pinebury Website

Episode sponsor: AG1 

Support the Podcast

Join The Ridership 

Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:

[00:00:00]Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport

I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist.

[00:00:28]Craig Dalton (host): This week on the show. I welcome Kyle rang court from pine Berry clothing. Onto the show. Kyle and I first got connected at the Maine bicycle show in Portland, Oregon, and I was super excited to talk to them about the new type of wool he's using in conducting this clothing line. And I was incredibly excited to learn that all of their manufacturing for pine Barre happens in the United States.

After this conversation, you'll learn a little bit more about his history and his family's history in manufacturing in the United States. So I hope you give them a look@pinebarry.us. Before I jump in. If you're a long time listener, you might know I've been drinking. One for over five years,

I started drinking age one. One daily after my chemotherapy treatment for Hodgkin's lymphoma. It feels like ages ago,

I was looking for something to support my overall health and nutritional needs. And I stumbled upon ag one that's because ag. One is a foundational nutritional supplement that supports one's body's universal needs. Like gut optimization, stress management and immune support. Since 2010 ag one has led the future of foundational nutrition. Continually refining their formula to create a smarter better way to elevate your baseline health.

So suffice it to say I've recommended AIG. To my friends and family for many years. And for those of you who are competitive athletes. No fear. AIG one is also and S F certified for sport it's formulated based on the latest science. And maintains the highest quality standards. If you want to take ownership of your health, it all starts with a G. try AIG one and get a free one year supply of a vitamin D three K two and five free AIG one travel packs with your first purchase.

Simply go to drink. Dot com slash the gravel ride. That's drink AIG one.com/the gravel ride. To check it out today. Would that business behind us, let's jump right in to my conversation with Kyle.

Hey, Kyle, welcome to the show.

[00:02:41]Kyle Rancourt: Hey, thanks for having me. Happy to be here.

[00:02:44]Craig Dalton (host): I feel like this is the second week in the row where I have to say to the guests, like, sorry for the trials and tribulations of getting you on. We've had some fits and starts trying to record this, but we're finally getting it done.

[00:02:54]Kyle Rancourt: Yeah, that's that's the important thing is we're here now. So glad to be here.

[00:02:59]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. I can't wait to, to sort of explore your story a little bit. We met at the maid bike show in Portland, Oregon, where you were there representing your brand Pineberry. Um, with jerseys and arm warmers and socks, but there's so much to the story as I got to know you a little bit in Portland, I'd love to just step back and just get to know you a little bit and sort of follow your journey into cycling first and then into manufacturing and creating this brand.

[00:03:28]Kyle Rancourt: Yeah, actually it's funny you bring up the maid show I got an email today from the organizers of maid that they're it's on again for next year and They're already planning it and I reserved my booth. So Uh, hopefully i'll see you there again excited to to be part of it.

[00:03:45]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. It was such a. Just a great show. I mean, as someone who's been to like Interbike and CABDA and some of these old industry shows and then the North American Handmade Bike Show, this was just a nice amalgamation of them all. It was small and intimate. And I feel like around every single corner of that show, I was finding brands that I loved or wanted to talk to the founders.

So much fun. Highly recommend it. And hopefully I'll be back there again myself.

[00:04:12]Kyle Rancourt: Yeah, I totally agree. It was a great experience

[00:04:15]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. So tell me about where did you grow up and how did you find the bike originally?

[00:04:20]Kyle Rancourt: I grew up in Lewiston, Maine, which is, um, about 30 miles north of Portland, Maine. Uh, we're, we're an interior city, an inland city, so we're not on the coast. Um, there's... Uh, really great ice hockey heritage here. Um, some, some great, you know, hockey players have come from this area. And, uh, so I grew up on skates.

Uh, that was, that's sort of my, was my, my first love as an athlete was, was skating and playing ice hockey. Um, and I think, you know, those experiences in Maine have definitely, uh, informed my, um, and my, my experiences as an athlete going forward.

[00:05:15]Craig Dalton (host): And did you, did you continue playing hockey through college?

[00:05:18]Kyle Rancourt: No, I played a little bit of club hockey in college. Um, but no, pretty much stopped after, after my senior year of high school or freshman year of college. Um, and you asked how I, I got into cycling. So. It was actually through triathlon. So, um, in college, I, you know, wanted to get back in shape. I started running and swimming, um, just for exercise.

And then after college, um, I continued and I had a coworker who was into triathlon and suggested I try one. He, are you familiar with the Xterra? Triathlon it's like the off road triathlon. So he was doing one of these. I think it was in New Hampshire it was one summer and He suggested I join him and I really I hadn't ridden a bike since I was a kid probably I was about I was maybe 24 or 25 at the time.

So it'd been a long time, you know I grew up obviously riding bikes in the neighborhood and in mountain biking with friends. I always had a mountain bike, but I think organized team sports took over in high school and, uh, stopped riding my bike. So I bought a used mountain bike from a friend and, uh, started riding with the local bike shop.

I went in to have it tuned up and they told me they had a group ride every Wednesday. And so I went to the It was a mountain bike group ride and I was just terrible. I was such a fish out of water. I remember we, we were riding up this trail, this single track, and there was a log down in, in, uh, over like across the trail and I got off my, I saw the other guys like hopping over it.

And I got off my bike and, and walked over it. And I, a guy next to me was like, Oh, this is all you have to do. Just ride up to it and, you know, lift up on the handlebars and then, you know, pick your feet up to kick your rear wheel over and that's it. And I was like, Oh my God. I was like, what did I get myself into?

He made it sound so easy, but in the moment it seemed impossible. Um, but I kept at it. And, uh, fell in love with the sport. I did some triathlons. I, uh, that XTERRA triathlon was the first one. And then I, um, I did a couple like sprint and Olympic distance road triathlons after that. And, and very quickly realized that I not only was better at cycling than I was at running and swimming, but I actually liked it a lot more as well.

And so I feel like this is a common story, but it wasn't, it wasn't very long before I dropped the running and swimming act and became a

[00:08:05]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah.

[00:08:06]Kyle Rancourt: full

[00:08:06]Craig Dalton (host): Certainly my experience as well. Much easier to drop running and swimming than it is cycling.

[00:08:11]Kyle Rancourt: Yeah, exactly. So yeah, the rest is history. Um, I've been

[00:08:16]Craig Dalton (host): Were you back in Lewis, in Lewiston at that point?

[00:08:18]Kyle Rancourt: yeah, I moved back home, started to join the family business.

[00:08:23]Craig Dalton (host): Interesting. And I know we want to get into this. So what is that family business?

[00:08:28]Kyle Rancourt: Uh, we are footwear manufacturers. We make shoes here in Lewiston. We have, we have a factory that, that we've had here for over 50 years and we have our own brand we sell online. Um, we also sell to retail stores all around the world. And, um, we're a private label manufacturer, so we make footwear for other brands as well.

So, yeah, lots of big brands you've, you've definitely heard of, and, and if you've worn some of their Made in USA, uh, lines of shoes, it's... There's a good chance we made them. The Rancourt's of Lewiston, Maine made them.

[00:09:05]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. What, say, drop the name again of the brand?

[00:09:08]Kyle Rancourt: It's called Rancourt and Company.

[00:09:11]Craig Dalton (host): Okay. And are they making, um, like leather boots? Is that the type of

[00:09:16]Kyle Rancourt: Yeah, leather, leather dress and casual shoes, you know, everything from loafers and boat shoes to, to boots. You know, we even make winter boots with shearling lining and, you know, rugged vibram soles. Um, but definitely in, in the lifestyle lane, not like work boots or anything like that.

[00:09:36]Craig Dalton (host): Gotcha. So interesting. So the facilities right there in Maine, how many people does it employ?

[00:09:42]Kyle Rancourt: Uh, we employ about 50 people. So there are approximately 40 shoemakers, um, in the factory making shoes every day.

[00:09:53]Craig Dalton (host): That's fascinating. And I'm imagining, so you've probably got a sort of a leather cut and sew kind of mechanism there. And then you've also got to make the sole. There's probably a bunch of components to that manufacturing process.

[00:10:06]Kyle Rancourt: Yeah, there's like, there's over a hundred steps in the process. Making shoes is, uh, is more complicated than, than people think. But yeah, there's, there's a lot of different steps. So we do everything from, from start to finish right in that factory.

[00:10:21]Craig Dalton (host): It was super interesting. Um, I'll put a link to that brand in the show notes. I'm sure people will be interested to seeing what shoes come out of that factory. And now I'm scratching my head because I do have a couple of like American made boots and wondering if they came out of that factory.

[00:10:38]Kyle Rancourt: it's possible. It's a good chance.

[00:10:41]Craig Dalton (host): All right. Well, we're not here to talk about shoes. We're here to talk about. Your clothing brand. So why don't we talk about like, what was the journey like talk about the Pineberry brand? What led you to creating it? And then I've got a ton of questions about the product and the type of material you're using, et cetera.

[00:10:59]Kyle Rancourt: Yeah. Um, so like I said, I, about... 14 years ago, I is when I would identify as a cyclist. I began identifying as a cyclist and fell in love with the sport and became a huge part of my life. Um, I, I was racing on the road for many years and, you know, continue doing triathlons from here and there. And, but really, I would say, um, you know, When the pandemic started in 2020, um, it became a much bigger part of my life.

I, uh, was, I had dabbled in gravel cycling for a long time. You know, I raced, my first bike race I ever did other than a triathlon was a cyclocross race. So I had always been in that sort of off road space or culture. Um, and so, you know, we would, it was, I remember in 2013, 2014, like we didn't even have a word called gravel cycling.

We would just go ride dirt roads with our cyclocross bikes, you know? Um, and, but as the gravel thing, the gravel boom grew and the, with the pandemic, spending more time at home and kind of having more free time. Um, I started doing these really long gravel rides with friends and which led to, you know, signing up for.

Unbound 200. And you can imagine, I'm sure, you know, all the training that goes into trying to, trying to finish one of those. So cycling just became this huge part of my life. And I started thinking more and more about the apparel that I was wearing, you know, the gear that I was buying and wearing, um, and how it performed and, and where it was made and, you know, what.

what was ideal, I think, for, for me as a cyclist. And, um, that's where the, that's the seed was planted that I wanted to try something different and, and follow this passion into the cycling industry. And I had always loved, uh, Merino wool, the, the story, the feel of it, the performance, you know, the performance aspect of it.

Um, How, you know, it dries so quickly, and even though it's super light, it still can be extremely warm, the warmth to weight ratio is pretty much unmatched. Um, when it's wet, it continues to keep you warm, you know, there's, it's, it's really like this magical fiber.

[00:13:46]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, it really is. I think I got my first exposure to Merino outside of cycling. It was sort of Envogue for hiking and you know, REI or someone might have had Merino wool long underwear And I remember doing some hiking trips and thinking like oh, this is great but when I think about where I thought about at the time wool for cycling It was a hundred percent always in the retro Jersey.

I remember I had one from Pearl Izumi and one from a company that my wife worked for. And it was like an old school aesthetic, old wool Jersey. And it reminded me of like the Randonneur culture. And to your point, like it, it had these amazing attributes. But it never felt like me as a cyclist, like I might even wear it as more as a casual sweater than I ever did on the bike that the, those garments I was describing.

But I know now that wool has so many different attributes depending on how it's made. So I'm interjecting my own thoughts, but love to hear you continue your journey of like, okay, you've kind of stumbled upon wool as being this magic fabric, but how do you make it? Modern and and, you know, make the right aesthetic for gravel cyclists.

[00:15:01]Kyle Rancourt: Yeah, like you, you know, to your point, I, I had only used it for like hiking and skiing, you know, uh, I didn't mention that earlier, but, um, you know, in addition to, to my, Winter, winter sport, hockey career. I also am an avid skier and have been my whole life whenever I wasn't, when I was growing up, whenever I wasn't playing hockey, I was skiing.

It was like, I was doing those two things. I was always on ice or snow. I, to this day, I absolutely love winter. I look forward to it. I love ice and snow and, and you know, the opportunities that it provides for, for outdoor activities. Um, so. You know, it was a part of my hockey and merino wool was a part of my hockey and skiing kit, you know, as base layers or long underwear, things like that.

So I was always aware of it. And then I started to see in the market, um, some cycling brands were making base layers or accessories out of merino wool and maybe a jersey or two, right? Like I bought a jersey. I bought a merino jersey from Bontrager years ago. I bought a couple from this Italian brand that I was into and I I thought two things.

One, I liked what they were doing, but I felt like I could do it better, and nobody was specializing in it. That was the key thing is that, um, there are merino specialty companies, but not in the cycling space. And so the brands that were making merino wool, um, pieces for their cycling lines, it always felt a little bit like an afterthought.

Or like you mentioned, it was sort of this like retro throwback. piece, you know, that, like that Bontrager jersey I bought years ago was very much in, in, you know, in that vein. It was, it was like this. Old school, you know, sort of heavy wool had, um, these retro elements to it. It didn't, it, it felt, yeah, it didn't feel like it was this, this core piece that they were, you know, trying to, trying to put out there.

Um, so when I, when I made, finally made a decision to do this, I started researching Marino wool, yarn, and fabric, and I very quickly came across. This company based in New Zealand, they're called, uh, TMC, the Merino company. And they have a patented technology, uh, called New Yarn. It's a patented yarn spinning technology.

And, um, essentially, they're able to spin Merino fibers without twisting them. Conventional merino, uh, core spun and ring spun merino. When, when those fibers get spun, they get twisted and the twisting, it creates a rope like structure. So it takes out, to put it in the most basic terms, it takes out the volume and the elasticity.

So you're inhibiting the natural benefits of merino wool. So with this new yarn technology, they're, they're able to create. A merino wool yarn and fabric that performs as closely to merino wool in nature as possible. So they're not inhibiting any of the benefits. And what you get in the end is a laundry list of, of benefits over conventional merino.

But the most important ones are, it's nine times more durable than conventional merino. It's um, has 85 percent more elasticity, which you can imagine for a cycling jersey is incredibly important. So we make a cycling jersey that's really comfortable in form fitting, and it has no Lycra in it whatsoever.

It's all, um, mechanical stretch from, from these Merino fibers. Um, and

[00:18:58]Craig Dalton (host): when I put it on, I mean, everybody's used to these Lycra jerseys that kind of stretch over your arms and body. Does it sort of have a semblance of that stretch and give?

[00:19:06]Kyle Rancourt: it does. Yeah, very much. So it, I think. most people wouldn't even notice the difference in terms of the fit. And, and the benefits are, um, Lycra tends to break down faster than other fibers, and it doesn't deal with moisture very well. So it doesn't dry very fast. It doesn't wick very well. So you take out You take lycra out of the equation and you get some performance benefits there.

So I fell in love with this, this new yarn merino and, um, decided to, to dedicate this, this new project to it. So, um, most of our pieces, all of our apparel and, uh, is made from new yarn, new yarn merino wool fabric now.

[00:19:52]Craig Dalton (host): So you found the yarn and the material. There's a big kind of process between that and actually having a finished garment and designing it. Did you have any experience in that realm? Or was it a lot of trial and error with the sewers to kind of get the fit you were looking for?

[00:20:09]Kyle Rancourt: Yeah, so I have a lot of product development experience and design experience, but only in footwear. So that was, um, there was a sharp learning curve for me, for sure. I, I would say over somebody with no experience, I definitely had a huge advantage having the background that I do in shoes and footwear, um, in getting this thing off the ground.

But at the same time, uh, the apparel business and making apparel clear, you know, has its own intricacies and, uh, this knowledge that this deep knowledge that you, that you need to acquire, I think, to be able to do something like this. The one of the, after finding, yeah, go ahead.

[00:20:59]Craig Dalton (host): yeah, just to say, I think one of the wonderful things about sewing is you can, you know, work with a sewer to pattern, you can test things if they need to be adjusted. It's quite easy and fluid to have that conversation with a sewer to get the right fit and feel. And then once you have it patterned, obviously it can then be replicated.

[00:21:18]Kyle Rancourt: Yeah. Yeah. So it's in to add to that after find after finding this sort of Developing the idea, finding the fabric that I wanted to use. The next step was finding a manufacturing partner. Um, and I knew I wanted to do this here in the U S American manufacturing is super important to me. Obviously that's, um, my background and what, and my family business for as long as I can remember is, has been us manufacturing.

So I found a manufacturing partner and they connected me with, um, you know, Pattern maker and in product development people. And so that's that's where we got the ball rolling there.

[00:22:01]Craig Dalton (host): Nice. Understandably, you were interested in doing a U S manufacturing approach, as you said, given your family's history, do you want to talk about some of the trade offs there that, you know, in your mind is someone who's starting a brand, obviously there's cost trade offs, there's quality trade offs.

Where do you see it all kind of fitting together? And to add to that question, I know sustainability is an important part of the brand. So if you just kind of want to layer in that thought process and some of the net results of manufacturing in the United States.

[00:22:33]Kyle Rancourt: Yeah, so the number one thing that I think Most people probably understand but but for those that don't is that manufacturing in the United States is extremely expensive you know and the reason is The, the craftspeople, you know, working in these factories, they are paid well, you know, they're paid living wages, and I, that's super important to me, that's like, the number one reason why I support manufacturing, and, you know, would never, Make things elsewhere just wouldn't be worth it to me is that reason that the Workers are not being exploited.

They're being treated fairly Um, they're being paid fairly and from for many of them, it's Um, it's a tradition You know what they're doing that is a lot of times it's a family tradition in our shoe factory. We have three, three generations of people, you know, who've, who've been shoemakers and continue to do so.

Um, so that's the number one thing, you know, a trade off there is, is, you know, domestic manufacturing is expensive for that reason, um, that, that the wages here are just higher, but at the same time, there are considerable cost savings in, in shipping and freight. You know, you're, you're not shipping everything, all your, um, all your materials, your finished goods, your samples, you know, everything you need in order to, uh, to make your goods, you're not shipping to Southeast Asia or to South America, wherever you're, you're manufacturing overseas.

So there's cost savings there and then, you know, the simplification of, of logistics. Um, and so, you know, that. That comes into play on the sustainability side too, you know, our our apparel is made in Massachusetts. We're in Maine. Like, that's a very short car ride. You know, I can drive to the factory. I can see my things being made and then the shipping, you know, shipping from Massachusetts to Maine is, is again, very uh, minimal.

It's, it's inexpensive. There's very low carbon emissions. Um, yeah, it's, I think that's one of the often overlooked. Benefits of US manufacturing, you know when you're an American brand who's selling mostly in the United States. Is that the transportation?

[00:25:07]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Yeah. I think when NUS, when we pick up garments on the rack at our local bike shop, it's, it's easy to forget what that product took to get there. And if you think about an offshore manufacturing setup, the designer probably is flying over to Asia, wherever it's being manufactured to work with the factory, try to get it right.

Maybe then they get, then go home, get a sample sent to them. The sample's got some minor thing wrong with it, so they have to fly back to Asia, work with the factory. Yeah. And then these factories don't operate well unless you have Significant volume. So maybe you have to take a hundred pieces of every size in order to get a run done with that factory.

And God forbid there's an error in any of those things that has been sent to you. So now you're sitting on a hundred garments of which you kind of have to sell, right? Because you've paid for that inventory and all of a sudden you have to make these really tough decisions as a brand to say, like. Okay. I really set out on this journey to have a super high quality level, but what has turned out in this factory experience is not really what I want to achieve as a brand.

And you either scrap it and lose all that money, or you sell it and your reputation takes a hit. And I think that's the trade off. I mean, obviously like you're able to make sure that those first five, 10 that came off the line are perfect. Cause you can go down to Massachusetts and make sure they're everything you as the product designer.

Wanted to express in that garment.

[00:26:35]Kyle Rancourt: Yeah, those are all those are all great points Alright

[00:26:40]Craig Dalton (host): That's why I get paid the big bucks, Kyle.

[00:26:43]Kyle Rancourt: The though I I sort of noted or remarked, uh, to others, you know, noted internally or remarked to others many times that how invaluable it was that I could just drive an hour and a half and be at my factory whenever I needed to be. Um, you know, I, to be honest, it was I, I can't complain, but at the same time, I'm so used to having my factory in my backyard.

Like our family shoe business, the factory is two miles away, you know, so we, we live there basically. Um, so driving an hour and a half was a big change, but still, I'm, I'm, I was there, you know, frequently and during that first production run. And when we were. you know, developing the patterns, doing, doing fittings down there.

I was there multiple times to do that process as well. So, um, yeah, just invaluable having it so close.

[00:27:44]Craig Dalton (host): a hundred percent. I mean, to my backstory, I ran a manufacturing facility in San Francisco and went through that same journey. It was just so nice to work with the craftsmen and women. And if there was a problem, you can just kind of address it right there on the fly. If you get customer feedback, you know, it's not like you have thousands of these garments sitting around.

It can get be woven into the products very quickly because you're, I assume you're not sort of being forced to hold a ton of inventory at any one time.

[00:28:15]Kyle Rancourt: Yeah, I think, I think in general, um, another benefit of domestic manufacturing is that the minimums will are lower, you know, that's not always the case. I've definitely encountered some U. S. apparel factories where the minimums are very high. Um, but in general, you can make smaller quantities of things.

And so, yeah, it leads to, you know, a business and an organization that's a lot more agile. You know, as you, as you said, you can, you can make changes on the fly, um, without, you know, without worrying about, uh, the thousands or tens of thousands of, of garments that you have in production or in inventory. So it's a, it's a great place.

Um, I think it's a great place to start. And for me, it's the place I'll continue to be. I wouldn't do this any other way. Um, but I, I have many friends who started apparel businesses and started in the US, um, because it's, there's easy, easy entry and then have moved some production overseas, you know, sometimes in Europe or, or in, in Asia, but it's a great starting place.

[00:29:32]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. I think, I mean, these are some of the trade offs that one gets as an entrepreneur and a founder, right? As you scale and then you start to see, Hey, well, maybe, maybe REI would sell this line, but the price point has to be different. And then you, I mean, then there's just a decision point there to say like, maybe part of the line is always made in the U S and maybe part works with, uh, an ethically sourced factory overseas, which is possible as well.

[00:29:59]Kyle Rancourt: Yeah. And it's, as you know, it's really common in the industry for that to happen. You know, there's many brands who are doing that.

[00:30:07]Craig Dalton (host): Let's, uh, transition and talk about the products in your collection. I'm interested just to hear you describe the aesthetic and then maybe just call out some of the garments that you have available at this point.

[00:30:19]Kyle Rancourt: Um, yeah, so the The collection is growing, uh, pretty rapidly, but right now what we're, what we have to offer is pretty tight assortment. Um, because I, I had Kind of two things that I really wanted to focus on when we got up and running. Uh, we just launched in, in April of, of 2023, April of this year. So we have, uh, cycling jerseys, short and long sleeve, you know, traditional full zip with three pockets in the back.

And then we have performance tees, short sleeve and long sleeve. And we also have a sock collection, um, that's made for us by Defeat, which is, you know, a very well known and well regarded manufacturer. Um, Sock Factory has been around over 30 years. They make all their own socks. And so they do essentially like a private label for us.

So it's our custom designs and specifications, but made by Defeat. And

[00:31:19]Craig Dalton (host): Are they also doing the arm warmers?

[00:31:21]Kyle Rancourt: they do the arm warmers. Yeah. They're a great partner.

[00:31:25]Craig Dalton (host): yeah, my eagle eye caught that one because I have to say that, that garment is awesome. But the, the wool arm warmers in San Francisco with the wet fog we have here, I can't tell you how invaluable they've been to my, my wardrobe for sure.

[00:31:39]Kyle Rancourt: I bet, and they're so versatile because, you know, you can, you can wear them under a t shirt if you're hiking or you're just on like a, you know, chill mountain bike ride or whatever. Um, but they, same with a cycling jersey, you know, you wear them under a short sleeve jersey and, and it just makes that both garments way more versatile.

So,

[00:32:00]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah.

[00:32:01]Kyle Rancourt: so yeah,

[00:32:02]Craig Dalton (host): been using your, I've been using your short sleeve Jersey, not the Jersey, excuse me, the t shirt that I got in, uh, and at made at the made bike show. And it's been great. I mean, I, I do love, as you've said, it's it, you can sweat in it, but it'll dry. You don't smell, you know, there's all sorts of good attributes there.

[00:32:20]Kyle Rancourt: You don't have to wash it every time you wear it. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, so we, we, our first season, um, was a sort of light mid weight. merino that we used, which is great for sort of all, you know, year round wear. And again, we have the short sleeve and long sleeve jersey and the performance tees.

And then just recently we, we launched our fall winter collection, which is a heavier midweight merino. Um, I, which I absolutely love just that little extra weight adds, you know, a really luxurious feel to it. Um, but it's still extremely light, you know, we've had customers order the new jerseys and say and say Oh, this isn't as as heavy as I thought or isn't as thick as I thought um, but then after they wear it, you know, they realize that it doesn't need to be because that new yarn fabric is just It's so amazing.

There's such an excellent warmth to weight ratio.

[00:33:23]Craig Dalton (host): Gotcha. Interesting. Yeah, I'd be curious. That thicker one sounds perfect for this time of year around here. It's interesting as you like try different materials and different garments, how you have to rethink your layering strategy of what makes sense and adds up to the level of warmth that you need.

I've been playing around with a few garments lately and sometimes I'm a big winner and sometimes I'm a big loser that I've just got it all wrong and end up too cold or too hot.

[00:33:50]Kyle Rancourt: Oh, these, like, our long sleeve, the new fall long sleeve jersey, it's called the, um, the Grafton long sleeve jersey, is, uh, 180 grams per square meter. That's the weight of the fabric, which is on, like, the heavier end of a mid weight. And... You know, it's very cold in Maine right now. Today I went out for a ride.

It was about 38 degrees Fahrenheit. Um, and I wear that thing with no base layer. Usually, uh, uh, if it's, if it's in the thirties, I'll go the jersey and a vest of either like a light thermal vest or a wind vest and, and the jersey and that's it, and I'm, I'm plenty warm. And one of the things I. I always disliked about riding in the winter, was wearing bulky clothes on the bike.

I just found to be so uncomfortable. And so this transforms that experience because you can, you know, you put a light, even if you put a light base layer, one of our jerseys and then a vest, there's almost no bulk there and you're plenty warm in, you know, high twenties or even low thirties.

[00:35:01]Craig Dalton (host): Wow.

[00:35:02]Kyle Rancourt: Nice pair of gloves, some warm shoes, good to go.

[00:35:08]Craig Dalton (host): And your aesthetic is sort of very kind of clean and earthy. Is that the right way to describe

[00:35:14]Kyle Rancourt: Yeah, yeah, I would, uh, I've been a long time fan of minimalist design. So, um, we have this one signature, you know, design element, the double stripe on the sleeve, which, you know, has this, of course, like, retro feel. You know, racing stripes and across all all sports, right from auto racing to cycling and running the stripe, you know, the retro stripe look so we have that one design element.

And then other than that, they're just solid colors. And I focused really on picking colors, um, that that represent the brand and its heritage being in Maine. So, um, you know, the, the first season, it was like our granite gray, you know, for the, for the granite mountain, big old granite mountains here in Maine, um, pine green, for obvious reasons, Maine is the pine tree state and then Atlantic blue, you know, a nice dark, like Navy blue, um, to represent, you know, our, our Atlantic coast.

And then, The fall, uh, we added, we added black, um, and then sort of this, this rusty red color we're calling brick red, reddish brown color, which is really beautiful, and, uh, and moonbeam, which is this warm off white, um, that to me sort of symbolizes the shorter You know, the shorter days and that early moonrise of fall and winter.

So yeah, really simple design, minimalist design, and a focus on telling color stories, but in these like muted earth tones,

[00:37:00]Craig Dalton (host): Gotcha. Yeah. Everybody can take a look at pineberry. us, which is the website. Any advice you'd give someone who finds you online in terms of how to get the correct fit of the jersey?

[00:37:12]Kyle Rancourt: um, all of our garments are run true to size for us sizing. Um, but we do have a size chart on every product page, so you can match up your. Your chest measurements or your height and weight, um, and pick the best size for you. The The jerseys are meant to be more of a relaxed, like, club fit, so if you order your, your regular size, you can expect that.

It's not going to be like this really, they're not aero jerseys, you know, they're not meant to be really tight fitting. Um, but they are tailored and snug, like you'd expect from, you know, a performance road jersey.

[00:37:52]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Gotcha. Where's the best place for listeners to follow your story?

[00:37:58]Kyle Rancourt: Um, Probably on Instagram. Well, there's two actually. Um, that's a great question. Definitely Instagram. Always. We're very active. They're always posting, you know, our adventures, new products, um, uh, in our, on our stories and reels and posts. So lots of, lots of great content there. But then we also, I want to, I'm glad you brought this up.

I have this Pineberry Journal component to the website. And It's really about telling, it's about taking time to tell stories about outdoor. adventures or what inspires people about their environment. And, um, I'm, I'm trying to have a contributor every two or three weeks. I haven't been super successful at that.

So, you know, there'll be like two in a month and then I think I missed a month and, you know, we have like three lined up right now, three contributors. Um, but I'm bringing in, you know, a, a really wide variety of. So we've had, um, runners, cyclists, we had a gentleman from Maine who's a writer, who's an avid fly fisherman, and he wrote this, you know, really beautiful piece about, um, discovering your new home water, because he moved here from, from Washington, and when he moved to Maine, he, he had to discover his, his new home water.

So, and then we have a, like a champion, um, horseback rider and trainer who I went out and spent a day with and, and, uh, photographed her riding and training horses. And so, you know, we're telling these stories about these amazing things people are doing outdoors.

[00:39:43]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Awesome. I clicked through some of them. And, uh, yeah, it's always, I love seeing that. I think. It acknowledges that most of the people who are going to be visiting your site are probably multi sport athletes and outdoors people. So you've got the cycling specific garments, but you've also got t shirts and long sleeve t shirts out of the same performance wool that people can use for fly fishing or horseback riding or hiking or all of the

[00:40:10]Kyle Rancourt: Yeah. Yeah. And there's more coming, you know, we're gonna, we're focusing, uh, some time on, um, building out the hiking and running apparel line. And then we're going to, we're going to gear up for skiing as well. So we'll have a couple items this winter coming out for skiing and more in the future.

We'll always be a cycling focused and cycle and rooted in cycling. Um, but, uh, definitely wanting to serve, you know, other athletes or, or the cyclist like myself who loves doing other things as well.

[00:40:44]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Awesome. Well, Kyle, thanks for joining us. Thanks for telling this American made story. I love what you're doing over there at Pineberry and I hope many of our listeners will go over there and check you out.

[00:40:54]Kyle Rancourt: Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Good. Spend some time with you today.

[00:40:57]Craig Dalton (host): That's going to do it for this week's edition of the growl ride podcast. Big, thanks to Kyle for joining us and telling us all about. The pine Berry story.

I love, love, love that they're manufacturing in the United States and I'm intrigued by this new wool story I've been using one of their performance teas for a while. And all the attributes Kyle mentioned are coming true. I'm excited to try one of their performance jerseys. They're particularly their new one.

They just launched the winter weight as it's getting cold here in mill valley. And I could use a way to warm up on those early Dawn patrol rides. Big, thanks to our friends at age. For supporting the show this week, remember head on over to drink ag one. one.com/the gravel ride to get that free one year supply of vitamin D three K two and five free AIG. travel packs.

And if you, dear listener are looking for a way to support the show, there's a couple easy ways in which you can do it. Ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated in the podcast world. They really help in our discoverability and connecting with other gravel cyclists. Around the world, or if you're able to financially support the show, please visit buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride. Until next time. Here's to finding some dirt onto your wheels. 

This week we are joined by Eric Sutter, race director and founder of the Open Range 200k in Kansas. Learn Eric’s unexpected journey to becoming a race director and why the southern region of Kansas deserves its own exploration.

Open Range 200k

Episode sponsor: Hammerhead Karoo 2 (use promo code: TheGravelRide for free HRM)

Support the Podcast

Join The Ridership 

Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:

[00:00:00]Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport

I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist.

This week on the podcast, I'm welcoming Eric Sutter. He's the race director and founder of open range gravel in Kansas . The event takes place in April every year and is going on to its seventh edition in 2024. I'm going to flag this right away. Registrations opening this coming weekend. November 25th after Thanksgiving.

So make sure to check it out. If you're interested after hearing. Eric's journey to becoming a gravel race organizer. It's quite a fascinating journey. It's not as someone who started. Riding gravel bikes ages ago. He picked it up

after coming into the world of endurance athletics via kayaking. Of all things. I hope you enjoy the conversation, but before we dive in, I do need to thank this week sponsor, hammerhead and the hammerhead crew to. Computer.

It's been a minute since I've spoken about the hammerhead crew to computer. It's my daily computer on my gravel bike. I enjoy it. A whole hell of a lot. If you'll pardon my French. It's one of those devices that continues to grow and evolve over time.

And I think that's what I like so much about the hammerhead device. I'm getting a software update every few weeks and sometimes it's spot on and something I'm using. And sometimes it's something that I don't know, I need to use. Or would even want to use. For example, it was probably three or four months ago.

I got an update around accommodating e-bike features. And since I wasn't an e-bike rider. I didn't have a lot of need for it, but lo and behold, and this is my dirty little secret. I am now the owner of a mountain bike. So I'm excited to explore the features and functionality that I can bring to the crew too.

Just to understand battery life of my motor and my battery and make sure I don't get lost out there without the power to come home. Don't worry. I'm still a fan of peddling my bike. I just thought it would be a lot of fun. Getting an E mountain bike. The other thing, as you know, if you've heard me talk about the hammerhead career to you before. I love the elevation and climb feature that they rolled out quite some time ago with the climbing feature, you can see what's ahead of you in any climb that you're approaching, whether you have a map loaded or not.

For me, it's really helpful if I'm a new terrain, just understanding am I in for a long grind or is this a shorter climb where I can really push. As we're coming into winter, it's important that the crew too has both touchscreen capabilities. But also physical buttons. So if you've got some heavy duty gloves on, you can still manipulate the device and go to all the screens. You need. Right now our listeners can get a free heart rate monitor with the purchase of our hammerhead crew to simply visit hammerhead.io right now and use the promo code. The gravel ride at checkout. To get yours today. This is an exclusive offer.

So don't forget that promo code, the gravel ride. You'll get that free heart rate monitor with the purchase of your career to go to hammerhead.io today. Add both items to your cart and use the promo code, the gravel ride. Would that business behind us let's get right into my conversation with Eric.

[00:03:39]Craig Dalton (host): Eric, welcome to the show. Thanks, Craig. Thanks for having me on. I didn't think this was a long time coming, but as we just remembered, this is about three and a half years in the making since our first email exchange.

[00:03:52]Eric Sutter: That's right. Yeah. We, uh, we sent a couple of emails back and forth and then I think life just happened and, you know, stuff gets, uh, gets passed on and, and, uh, but it's good to, it's good to be here.

Good to finally be on and, uh, and get to talk with you and your, your listeners.

[00:04:05]Craig Dalton (host): Right on. Yeah. Shout out to Wade for reconnecting us. Telling me a little bit about your story, which I see you gave me in your 2020 email. So I'm excited to talk about both the OpenRange 200k, but also I think it's important when we talk about events and event organizing, just to hear a little bit about your backstory.

So to set the stage, why don't you just let the listener know, where'd you grow up? What'd you do as a kid? How'd you get into endurance athletics? I know there's a lot to this story, so we can take it

[00:04:33]Eric Sutter: slowly, bit by bit. Yeah. And feel free to interrupt me at any point to, to dive in more. Um, so I, I grew up in Pratt.

Um, it's about a, uh, an hour and a half West of Wichita, which most people were probably familiar with the general area of where Wichita is, uh, in, in South central Kansas. Um, it's a town of about 6, 000 and, um, just a small. Independent, isolated community, um, and so in high school, uh, played sports, played, uh, baseball and football and wrestled.

And then, um, yeah, uh, went from there, went to college at Kansas State. Um, I did Army ROTC. And so I knew, I knew at that point, like, going into the Army is what I wanted to do. And, uh, and so did that commissioned, um, and actually, uh, went into aviation. So flew, um, and still currently fly helicopters, uh, for the army.

Um, and

[00:05:25]Craig Dalton (host): did that initially take you outside of Kansas when you first

[00:05:28]Eric Sutter: deployed? Yeah, it did. So, um, and, and I really had, had only lived in the Midwest, Kansas, Missouri, Oklahoma growing up. And so, uh, my first, uh, first kind of visit outside besides just. You know, uh, having vacation somewhere was, yeah, down to Southern Alabama, yeah, which was kind of a culture shock.

So, um, went down there for, for flight training and then, um, I lived in, uh, Tennessee, Kentucky area for, uh, for most of my active duty, duty years.

[00:05:57]Craig Dalton (host): Okay. Yeah. I mean, I imagine most of us who haven't been in the military have an understanding that there's a physical fitness component of it. Do you, did the soldiers tend to recreate athletically?

Did you tend to? Yeah,

[00:06:10]Eric Sutter: yeah, definitely. So for, for aviation, uh, ultimate frisbee is kind of a, the, uh, the sport of choice. Um, okay. We play. So, uh, you know, and some people have like, you know, are, are doing marathons and stuff like that. But, um, you know, and I, I, I tried to keep, keep in shape, uh, it's always been important for me.

So, you know, trying to do, um, you know, we have our, our physical fitness tests and everything like that. So, uh, try to be in, in this.

[00:06:36]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, so it sounds like probably a little bit of running here and there. Oh yeah, definitely.

[00:06:40]Eric Sutter: Ultimate frisbee.

[00:06:41]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Where else did the military journey take you?

[00:06:46]Eric Sutter: So yeah so, um, you know, Tennessee and Kentucky is where I was stationed, uh, and then did some deployments.

So, uh, deployed to Iraq in uh, 2005, 2006. Then went to Afghanistan in 2014, and then another deployment to Kuwait in 2017, 2018. Okay. So yeah.

[00:07:02]Craig Dalton (host): And then. Yeah. Go ahead. Then you end up back

[00:07:05]Eric Sutter: in Kansas. Yeah. So then, uh, so then ended up back in Kansas and kind of in the middle of that went off active duty and joined the National Guard and in reserves.

And so now I'm a reserve pilot.

[00:07:15]Craig Dalton (host): Okay, great. Well, first off, thank you for your service. Yeah. And it sounds like along the way you were sort of, as many of us do in our twenties and thirties, kind of Dipping a toe in the water into different sports. Yeah. So what

[00:07:29]Eric Sutter: were you doing along the way? Yeah, so Really is when I came off active duty and we moved back to Kansas City.

I was looking for something to stay active and I watched the news one night and they were showing these Kayakers that were going across the state of Missouri and I looked at my wife. I was like that that sounds kind of neat You know, I think I think I'd like to do that and again, looking for something to stay active.

I was, I was playing, um, uh, ultimate Frisbee with, uh, with a local little club, but I wanted something a little bit more to, to, to, um, really stay, stay involved in something to stay active. So the first year

[00:08:06]Craig Dalton (host): of waterways, did you have access to, to kind of learn the sport of kayaking?

[00:08:09]Eric Sutter: Yeah. So, um, we've got a couple of lakes around.

Um, and so Uh, we'll, uh, we'll do that. And there was a club that, that would meet up. And so I, you know, that's the great thing with like Facebook and, and things like that. It's finding these little clubs and organizations. And so, uh, yeah, I met up, I found a race that was happening. Um, oh man, going back, just thinking about this, like the first race, I think it was 12 miles and it was kind of a show and go.

No, you know, no awards or anything like that. Just, you know, bring your boat and let's go, go race them. I had no clue what I was doing. I had no

[00:08:47]Craig Dalton (host): idea how long a 12 mile kayak race would take someone. Um,

[00:08:51]Eric Sutter: so generally, uh, you know, in our, our kayaks, you should be able to do about, well, five miles an hour. Um, is, is it kind of a moderate to fast pace?

Um, seven miles an hour, you're, you're, you're looking at, um, so especially on flat water. Uh, so yeah, so a 12 mile would be, yeah, it'd be about two hours. Gotcha.

[00:09:15]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, I've done a little bit of paddling and there's definitely an analogy to pedaling in just in terms of the cadence of your arms and your body and that repetitive motion that every time I've rode or paddled, like it does appeal to me much in the same way riding a bike appeals to

[00:09:29]Eric Sutter: me.

Right. Yeah. And it's kind of the same thing, you know, you can go to a certain level of exertion, um, and then like your gains just don't go much higher for the amount of energy it takes to go faster. You just hit that, that drag, uh, coefficient and it's, uh, but yeah.

[00:09:47]Craig Dalton (host): So it sounds like you got sucked into the sport of kayaking at that point.

I

[00:09:51]Eric Sutter: did. Yeah. Uh, like I said, the first time it was, I was terrible. Uh, I didn't have any technique. I didn't know what I was doing. Uh, got out there, had this boat that was like 60 pounds, just this heavy plastic boat, um, with a paddle that, you know, was not efficient in the water at all. Um, but what I found was like, the people there were awesome.

They were just, you know, they didn't give me a hard time for having a shoot. Plastic, you know, boat or anything like that. And they're all in these, as you'd know, in California, like the surf skis, I mean, these 18, 20 foot long, you know, um, 22 inch wide, uh, sit on top kayaks. And, um, and they just, like I said, they just.

And so, but again, what I kind of, what I learned was that, you know, these people are just really good people, um, really great people. And I just, that's, that's probably more of what sucked me into it was just these, these awesome people that I was, I was getting to meet and everything. So, and, and the benefit of staying, staying active.

Yeah.

[00:10:50]Craig Dalton (host): You know, it's so interesting with endurance athletic and particularly like the more extreme ones, like. Ultra running or something like that. The communities are just like where, what you want, show up, show up with a good attitude. Let's all get this done. And it is so refreshing

[00:11:05]Eric Sutter: and inviting. It is.

It is. Yeah. I can't say enough. And those, those people still good friends with, with several of them that I've met that first, that first race. And this was 10, 10, 12 years ago now.

[00:11:17]Craig Dalton (host): So, so tell me about this event across Missouri. One, I have to ask what Waterway goes all the way across Missouri. So

[00:11:24]Eric Sutter: it's the and two, how long is it?

Yeah, so it's the, uh, it's the Missouri River. Uh, you start in Kansas City and it, uh, it's a 340 mile race. Um, and that generally takes the fastest, can do it in, um, the mid 30 hours, 36, 35 hours, I think is the. The fastest time, uh, and you benefiting

[00:11:46]Craig Dalton (host): from a bit of current a little

[00:11:47]Eric Sutter: bit so you can get two, two to three mile an hour, uh, add on to your, your flat water speed at that point.

And it, and it varies in different places, um, where other, um, other waterways come in, you know, other, other rivers will, will meet the Missouri, you kind of get a boost and whatnot. So as you get closer to St. Louis, uh, you get a little bit faster. Okay.

[00:12:11]Craig Dalton (host): And, you know, with a 35 hour race for the fastest people in the world, you know, many are going 40, 50 hours.

I imagine. Are you, what does it look like stopping and refueling? How does that work in a kayak event? Yeah. So

[00:12:23]Eric Sutter: every, I'd say. At least every 50 miles is a, is a ramp, a boat ramp on the Missouri river. And so you, um, you have a ground crew and they meet you at each place and they've got, you know, all your, it depends on how you set them up.

I mean, mine was my parents. Um, and so I had set up bags and resupply and stuff like that. And they would have some extra water bladders. And so I'd swap, swap out water bladders and swap out, um, you know, my nutrition and put it in a little cooler behind my, my seat and then, uh, and then go on. And so. Yeah, it's, I did it three years, uh, the first year I, I, I was, uh, I was in an outrigger and I DNF'd, uh, that year I made about a hundred and...

I think 130 miles and, um, I just had a tremendous, uh, back pain and, um, and just wasn't, wasn't going to work to, to go on. And so I kind of came back after that and figured out, okay, I want to do this a little bit different. So I got a canoe, uh, that was really light, uh, carbon, uh, or I'm sorry, Kevlar, um, Kevlar fiber canoe and did that the second, uh, my second event.

Um, And then, um, and the third time I got to a surf ski and did it in a surf ski. Okay. And so that was, was a lot of fun and, uh, and it goes a lot, a lot faster.

[00:13:42]Craig Dalton (host): Well, listener will have to forgive me in this detour down to kind of racing, but I just, I just find it fascinating.

[00:13:49]Eric Sutter: Well, and it's, you know, it's interesting, uh, being a race director now, like a lot of the things that I.

Uh, I, I learned it's from, you know, it's from the kayak world and go into different kayak races, uh, things I wanted to do and things I, you know, I wanted to make sure that we, we didn't do. And so, um, so yeah, it's, it, it played a role into the creation of. And of what I do and the race.

[00:14:14]Craig Dalton (host): Interesting. So at some point, do you wind down your kayaking career, or are you

[00:14:19]Eric Sutter: still doing that?

No, I, I wound it down. Um, I think I own, I own a, a paddle still and a life jacket, but I don't have any boats anymore. Um, and so I tried doing both for awhile and I just found, like, I wasn't, I wasn't doing anything in the kayaking side. Um, and the long distance kayaking. It really takes a toll on your ground crew and my parents don't live local.

Um, and I was, I was using my, my wife's father. Um, and they're just, you know, they're, they're getting older and it's just, it wasn't fair to them to, uh, have to, uh, have them help me out. And, and, um, and my parents would help on the MR 340 that I went across Missouri. And, uh, yeah, it was just getting to be to where that long distance was, was.

Kind of a struggle for, for getting a crew to help me out. Yeah, it makes

[00:15:09]Craig Dalton (host): sense at this point in the podcast. I don't think we've mentioned a bicycle once. When did bicycles, when did bicycles and gravel riding come into your

[00:15:19]Eric Sutter: life? Yeah. So that's an interesting story too. Like you said, we got all these different little, uh, uh, tidbits that, that, uh, spider webs or however you want to call them.

Um, but, uh, in 20. See, in 2017, I was getting ready for a deployment to Kuwait. Um, I, I, I knew I wasn't gonna be able to kayak in Kuwait and I was kind of looking for another challenge and I started getting into running. I did a half marathon in April, uh, of that year and, uh, thought, well, this is, you know, I really liked it.

And, and equipment wise, you know, running just requires your shoes. And, um, and so I thought this was. This would be kind of a neat, uh, neat sport to get into. Uh, and I think it was May, May or June of that year. Um, I was running and injured my knee and I, I don't know what happened. I had an MRI done on it.

Uh, it was kind of inconclusive, but it was enough to where, um, I knew that running was now not, not a good choice for me to continue on doing if I wanted to walk, uh, later, so. Uh, so I kind of hung that up and then as I got into Kuwait, uh, got involved with a site, they had a cycling class there. So I got involved with, with cycling, um, overseas and, uh, I've had some friends that did, um, dirty Kansas at the time and, um, talked with them.

And I kind of looked and I was like, man, this, this, this looks like fun. Like this could be the sport I get into next and didn't need necessarily didn't need a ground crew to. Uh, to shuttle my, uh, nutrition from one spot to another. I can carry it on me or on the bike or have a, you know, aid station. And so, uh, so then I just kind of got the bug and got interested in looking at different gravel races and, and I knew.

I knew based on just a little bit of watching and the friends that I knew that did gravel, um, like my personality wasn't a road, road type, um, you know, it wasn't necessarily mountain bike type, but like the gravel seemed to resonate with, with my personality and the stuff I had done before with the kayaking.

[00:17:22]Craig Dalton (host): Were you able to acquire a bike while you were in Kuwait or did you have to wait till you came

[00:17:26]Eric Sutter: back home? Yeah. So in Kuwait, um, they have a program over there where. Uh, we could rent a bike over there. Um, they were nothing, they were nothing special. They were Mongoose, um, you know, Walmart, uh, kind of mountain bikes, full suspension, you know, but it was something and it, uh, at least got me back into cycling.

Uh, and I wrote that thing, I mean, I probably wrote it more than anyone else, uh, around there. I wrote it when it was 120 degrees out and, uh, and whatnot. Um, and it was kind of interesting because as the idea for, for open range was, was kind of festering in my head. Um, and I knew it was sandy out in, in, uh, around Pratt.

Um, of course, I'm in Kuwait, which is a big desert. So I would test the bike on different types of sand there and like, okay, yeah, you can do this. And so, yeah, it was, uh, it's kind of an interesting go with that. But yeah, they do have bikes over there and was able to get miles in there.

[00:18:26]Craig Dalton (host): When you came back to the States, did you get your first proper

[00:18:29]Eric Sutter: gravel bike?

I did. And in fact, I ordered it while I was in Kuwait. Um, I ordered, uh, it was a Diamondback Honjo off of Amazon. It was on, on sale for a really. Really good price with, with pretty decent specs. And so, uh, I had it, uh, delivered, uh, to the house. I just told the wife like, Hey, you're going to get this box.

It's going to be, uh, pretty big. Yeah. Just be careful with it, you know, and whatnot. So yeah, so she got it and, uh, had it ready for me when I, when I got home. So, and were you in Kansas city

[00:19:01]Craig Dalton (host): at that point? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So you, you come home, you got your, your diamond back finally on a proper gravel bike.

Did you sort of immediately start getting into the community and talking to people and figuring out where to ride or did that take a while?

[00:19:17]Eric Sutter: Yeah, no, it, it, uh, well, so I guess we should really even back up. Before that. So, um, cause we, I, we can't go on without talking about, without actually starting to talk about open range.

If, if that's cool with you, um, because that, that really became, that came first in a way. That's so interesting.

[00:19:36]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Walmart, uh, mongoose in the desert and you're thinking about creating a race.

[00:19:42]Eric Sutter: Right. So, and even to, to back up even more, um, if, if the, the listeners and the viewers can follow, but, um, while I was kayaking, I wanted to become a race director and set up my own race, uh, kayak race.

And so, um, I had an interest and I, I kind of figured out a place to do it, uh, down in Wichita. And I was just, I mean, it was very early on in my, my process for kind of researching it. But, um, but I wanted to, I really felt like I wanted to. Put something together. So then, uh, now fast forward back to Kuwait, uh, as I'm getting into looking at cycling and going to spin class.

And I've got this Mongoose mountain bike that I'm, uh, riding all over, over the base. Um, I get this feeling again that, you know, I got this calling that I need to put a, put a race on and it's not going to be a kayak race. It's going to be a bike race. And so I had some time and, and just started researching, uh, gravel bike races and, um, and.

Uh, where I'm from in Pratt, just south of there is the, the Gypsum Hills, Medicine Hills or Red Hills. They go by several different names. And uh, I remember when we first came to that area, just how beautiful it was. And so I thought at first that I was just going to put this, it wasn't even going to be a race.

It was just going to be me riding from, uh, Pratt where I have some family still. I was going to go down, there's a, uh, a little, uh, bar in a very sleepy town of about maybe 200 people, if that, and, uh, go down there and have a burger, and then, uh, ride back, and that would be about a 60 mile ride, and then it kind of just, one thing led to another, and I was like, well, what if What if, what if we made this a race?

What if we made this, you know, a ride down there? People get to see this awesome, uh, area of the country that no one knows about. Um, and so it kind of, one thing led to another and it just, it developed in. And okay, well, what if we did this and what if we did that? Um, and so, yeah, it just, it just blossomed from there.

I don't know if you've ever had anything, but it just, it wouldn't leave my mind, uh, for like three or four months. I mean, it just, every waking moment I was thinking about it, I was thinking, okay, what, how can we do this? How do we solve that problem? What do we do for this? And, uh, yeah, I just, I just, it really felt like a calling that like, it would feel weird not to do it, you know, at that point, even though I had never, I'd never been to a gravel race, uh, myself.

Uh, it just felt weird. Like if I didn't do this. And if we didn't do it at this point, it was never going to get done. And yeah, if I didn't do it, it just, it was going to feel weird. It's

[00:22:22]Craig Dalton (host): fascinating to sort of learn about, and you'll tell us about in the future, like how the event ended up not having the context of.

Trying to be an unbound or trying to be a BWR, any of these other things you may have seen or heard about, you had this unique experience with kayak racing and endurance athletics through a totally different filter and came back with this vision for creating the open range. It's super interesting. Yep.

[00:22:47]Eric Sutter: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. It's, uh, it, it was, it was interesting the first, you know, the first year and. And I think it went split. I mean, it really had a lot of great comments. Uh, in fact, the timer guy, uh, he, uh, he saw that I was a first time race director and, and, uh, he said later, he's like, yeah, I was, I was really worried because usually first time race directors, you know, don't know what they're doing and I've got to do everything for them.

And, and, uh, he's like, you, you had this thing. And, uh, and they'd actually asked later on if I would help out with some, some of their races, uh, stuff like that. But, uh, yeah, it was, you know, not having the, not having been to one, I didn't know, You know, besides doing some research and watching YouTube videos, I didn't, you know, I didn't have anything that I was trying to, to make it.

I didn't, you know, road wise or terrain wise, um, everything was open game to me because I wasn't trying to be like another race. So yeah,

[00:23:45]Craig Dalton (host): you, before we started recording you, we were talking about the state of Kansas and how different the geography can be as some listeners may be familiar with the Flint Hills where unbound gravel occurs.

Maybe take a moment and describe in your own words, how is it different around Pratt compared to what people may have seen around

[00:24:06]Eric Sutter: Emporia? Yeah, so, so Pratt, like right around Pratt, it's actually fairly, fairly flat, um, some undulating hills, but as you go south, and it doesn't take long, um, coming out of Pratt.

And as you go south, you start getting into the gypsum hills and it starts off a little bit like Emporia, just some nice rolling hills. Um, and then about Medicine Lodge, um, just south of Sun City. Uh, so about 35 miles in, it's just, it's like nothing you've ever seen. It's like, uh, it looks like Arizona, uh, Mars.

It's, uh, I've heard, you know, all, all of that. It's, um, it's red dirt, it's mesas and buttes with white gypsum rock. So you've got these colors that are just. Beautiful. I mean, red dirt with white rock and green grass, uh, just, just amazing. And then just the topography, just these steep buttes and bases that are out of nowhere.

Uh, just, just an amazing, uh, amazing course. Yeah, that's

[00:25:07]Craig Dalton (host): so, it's so unexpected sort of as someone with, with very little to no experience in Kansas and certainly not on the, the dirt roads and more rural areas of Kansas. So for the listener, we've been talking about it. It's sort of. It's on the southern side, the southern tip of, uh, of Kansas and also sort of the western.

Is that

[00:25:25]Eric Sutter: right? Yeah. If you,

[00:25:28]Craig Dalton (host): as the route goes, you're heading towards Oklahoma and then back.

[00:25:31]Eric Sutter: Right. Yeah. If you were to take Kansas and, um, and fold it in half, uh, east and west, and that line right there is about where Pratt Medicine Lodge is. And so we are, uh, yeah, basically in, uh, the start of western Kansas, uh, and then, about, uh, we're about.

Forty five miles north of the Oklahoma border is where Pratt is. Okay. Gotcha.

[00:25:54]Craig Dalton (host): Gotcha. And you were describing the terrain. I mean, obviously like these vistas and buttes and red dirt. Are you on dirt roads? Are you on double track? What's sort of the mixture that you ended up achieving?

[00:26:06]Eric Sutter: Yeah, so it's a little of both.

several different, uh, types of terrain. Um, Pratt is known for a lot of brick roads. So when you're actually in the town, you start off on a brick road. Um, and there's several brick roads in town. It's kind of a neat, uh, just, you know, I grew up on Main Street and at the time it was a brick highway. Um, but yeah, you start off on brick, you get some asphalt, um, and then you go into some, some dirt.

More dirt roads, um, there is some gravel, but a lot of it is, is more of a, a dirt, uh, sand base and, um, yeah, you go down there and then when you get down into, uh, the gypsum hills, we've got, um, permission from some landowners and they let us go on their, uh, their ranches. And so then you've got in, you go into the double track, uh, and sometimes, uh, sometimes it's just cattle trails.

Uh, sometimes it's. We're trying to connect areas and, uh, the rancher just mows a swath of grass and you've now got to go through the grass to get to the next spot. So, um, it really is a. It's a unique type of course. Um, there's, you know, we do put some pavement in there, so it's not completely all gravel.

Um, but that pavement, I think, helps, uh, helps people a little bit get a break from some of the rougher stuff. But, uh, but it's just a good mixture of Of, uh, pavement and, and dirt roads and just some incredible, I mean, there's, there's almost places where you think you're on a cyclocross course, places where you think you're on a mountain bike course, places where you think you're on a road race and people, places where you think you're on a gravel race.

So it's got, it's got something for everyone. Yeah.

[00:27:47]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. It's got something for everyone to love and probably something for everybody to hate, depending on their skillset. That's

right.

[00:27:53]Eric Sutter: Yeah. In fact, somebody once said like. It was like, man, your race is like the great equalizer. Like there's no, like there's no bike or no style that is suited for that rate.

Like that is just suited exactly for that. So yeah, I took that as a great compliment.

[00:28:10]Craig Dalton (host): As you should. That's awesome. So let's get into some specifics. What are the distances of the

[00:28:16]Eric Sutter: events? Yeah. So we've got a 200 K, which is our main, uh, main event. In fact, I was, when I created it, that was the only. Only distance I was gonna do.

I didn't care about a shorter distance, just gonna do a 200k. And as I was developing it, I had several people ask me if I would put together a shorter, shorter course that they didn't feel comfortable doing, uh, doing 200 K, uh, or about 126 miles. And they wanted a shorter, uh, shorter version. So, um, we have, uh, I call it the 100 K plus, and it's a 100 K plus because one year somebody got upset because, um, I was calling it the 100 K and it was like 68 or 69 miles.

And so they're like, you know, a hundred K, 63 miles, this is 68 miles. So, okay. I'll put a plus on the end of it.

[00:29:01]Craig Dalton (host): As someone who watched their odometer in the Leadville 100, click over to 100 and find myself not at the finish line, I definitely resonate with those remarks.

[00:29:10]Eric Sutter: Right. No, I did the same thing too when I raced, and so yeah, I get it.

[00:29:16]Craig Dalton (host): Um, and is it, is it actually an out and back on the same, same roads?

[00:29:21]Eric Sutter: No, so, uh, the 200 is, is almost a complete loop. Um, it, there's very few, uh, roads that you'll be on twice. The, the, the 100 K plus is a kind of like a, a little bit of like a lollipop. So you go out, you make a, a. Fairly good size loop, probably about a 30 or 40 mile loop.

And then I get, well, maybe a little bit less, but yeah, 30 mile loop. And then, and then ride kind of the same road route back. And then we also have, Oh, go ahead. Yeah.

[00:29:50]Craig Dalton (host): I was going to say there's a third option for how to participate.

[00:29:53]Eric Sutter: There is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so there's the tour. And so, um, that goes on the 200 mile or the 200, excuse me, 200 K course.

Uh, but it's. It's split up into two days. And so you ride about 78 miles the first day, uh, camp at a, uh, authentic guest ranch out there. And then, um, and they have, uh, catered, uh, dinner and breakfast for you. And then you, you ride back. And so, yeah,

[00:30:19]Craig Dalton (host): it's an option I hadn't really seen before in that same context.

There's obviously like the XL version of any given race that you're out there on your own and you're expected to sleep in a ditch. But I really liked, as I was reading the description of the 200k tour, that you go out, you could have dropped your camping gear off, or you could stay in the lodge. Now I'm learning that you can get a nice meal.

Yep. That sounds like a great way to spend a weekend. It

[00:30:42]Eric Sutter: really is. And I wanted, the purpose of that was I wanted riders. To see, cause, and the reason why I only wanted the 200k course is because that's where the really cool, uh, route is, and the really cool topography, you still get some of it on the, the 100k, don't get me wrong, but the 200k you see quite a bit more, and I knew there were riders that wouldn't feel comfortable in their ability to, to do that all at once, and so by putting this together, Tour together it kind of your own pace.

It's non competitive you get to see it and then spend as much time as you want And then and then finish it up the next day.

[00:31:20]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah for the 200 K and the 100 K is the Orientation that this is a race and some people are going for it and there wants to be a winner

[00:31:29]Eric Sutter: Yeah, definitely on the 200 K that Yeah, we we do podium for that the 100 K I never did a podium for until last year and, uh, and so finally last year, and we'll see if I keep doing that.

I mean, I'm most likely we'll keep a podium for the 100k, um, because there are people that were taking it pretty seriously. And so, um, so I felt like it was worth it. Awarding those people, uh, for, for doing that. Yeah. And so, yeah. But yeah, the 200 K is again, the big one. Uh, the 100 k, uh, yeah, we'll still, we'll still give you an award for the top top three male and female, but it's just those, those two categories.

Yeah.

[00:32:08]Craig Dalton (host): And what year, so 2024. How many additions will we have seen at that point?

[00:32:13]Eric Sutter: Yeah, so this will be our seventh year, which is just, yeah, it's just incredible. Um, our, you know, our first year I, I told my wife, I was like, we need. We need about a hundred, I think I counted like a hundred and six people based on, uh, Uh, our, our fees that, you know, to, to kind of break even.

And, uh, and I told her, I was like, you know, if we don't get that, um, we'll count this as kind of a learning lesson, you know, uh, you know, some people pay for an MBA, some people pay, you know, for other experiences, um, you know, this will be an experience and this will be a learning experience, uh, whether we have a hundred people, whether we have 50 people or whether we have 300 people.

Um, and, and if we have to pay. Pay for that experience. Great. Um, you know, hopefully we can, you know, have a success and, and whatnot. So, um, so yeah, our first year, like I said, I, I, my goal was to get right around a hundred, I think the first day we had like 60 or 70 people registered the first day and it was just like completely blew my mind.

I was like, okay, this is interesting. You

[00:33:16]Craig Dalton (host): know, that's what I think that is interesting about the Midwest. I think, you know, obviously there's so many passionate cyclists there, so many of them either have done Unbound or can't get into Unbound or are training for Unbound because I think your events a little bit earlier in the year.

It's pretty natural that there's just going to be this pent up demand. And if you give riders a good experience, they're going to come back and they're going to tell their

[00:33:39]Eric Sutter: friends, right? Yeah, yeah, that's, uh, and we've grown, we've grown every year since then. Um, we've, we held it in 2020 when, um, a lot of races were, we're kind of taking a break that year.

Um, and we had to adjust it and that was a learning lesson too. Cause we, uh, you know, the race is at the end of April COVID hit, uh, what about the middle of the end of March? Yeah. So we knew, you know, we had to make a decision pretty quickly, uh, that we're going to have to at least postpone it. Uh, we moved it to June, um, and it's kind of funny if you watch the COVID numbers, like it took this dip right the weekend of the race and then the weekend after it climbed back up.

Not, you know, we weren't a super spreader by any means, but, uh, you know, it's just the way it happened. Uh, yeah,

[00:34:25]Craig Dalton (host): it's, it's, I think it's so interesting, just the business of event production as well that people tend to forget about. I mean, you look at how much it costs to register, but. On your end, as I know and understand, you know, there's just so much that goes into it from catering to, you know, about podium structure to PA system, to making sure there's safety out there on the course, a sweep aid stations.

Like it's definitely to your point, like you, you couldn't start that first race without committing a certain amount of dollars out of your pocket, the unknown, whether you were going to a hundred, more than a hundred people that's joined.

[00:35:02]Eric Sutter: Right. And that's what, that's kind of like, I'm, I'm very passionate about like grassroots cause I get it, you know, for the people that are starting races, um, that they're taking a, you know, they're, they're taking a chance on, you know, creating something and, and potentially being out of money, uh, you know, potentially not going how they wanted it to go their first year, uh, learning lessons.

Um, so, you know, we, uh, we had a. A local race, uh, in Kansas a couple weekends ago, and I wasn't able to attend it, but, um, I, I, they would hit me up with questions and I would kind of give them some, some help and whatnot. And so it just kind of neat to watch them and then to get, hear the responses that people that went to that race, uh, that absolutely loved it.

And so it's like, okay, cool. This is, this is neat. That's

[00:35:47]Craig Dalton (host): great. How many people are you hoping to get to the 7th edition of the Open

[00:35:51]Eric Sutter: Range? Yeah, so I think 500 is, is our, kind of our sweet spot. Um, we've been, uh, we've been right around there the last couple of years. So, um, yeah, we, we kind of capped it right around 500 and, and kind of hope to get, get to that amount.

It's, uh, it works well for the community. We can do more, um, and if we get that. I think if we get that continually, then, you know, we'll look at that, open it some more. But, uh, yeah, we can, that's kind of what we're looking at.

[00:36:24]Craig Dalton (host): What day is the race on the

[00:36:25]Eric Sutter: weekend? Yeah, it's on a Saturday. Um, and then the tour again would be a, uh, the Friday and Saturday, but yeah, it's Saturday for the majority of the people. Um, yeah, what's great about Pratt is there's a community college there and because of the community college, there's a lot of hotels and decent hotels, uh, too.

So, um, there's, yeah, there's always plenty of room, plenty of hotels and, and they're cheap. They don't gouge, um, you know, the riders coming in for open range. Yeah. So, I mean, for under a hundred bucks, you can get it. A decent hotel room. So it works out, works out real well for him. Just to give

[00:36:59]Craig Dalton (host): me a sense for, cause obviously 200 K in Kansas might be different than 200 K in California.

What are the, you know, what are the fastest men and women tend to finish in?

[00:37:08]Eric Sutter: Yeah. So, um, we've had a couple of years where the leaders are, uh, they're riding above a 20 mile an hour average, which is just incredible. Like that is well beyond my ability. Um, I don't, I, I don't get how they do it. I really, because if you see some of our terrain, uh, I mean, you have to dismount.

We, in fact, I put a post out today, uh, a reel on Instagram and, um, the leader, you see the, the two, the one of the two, um, they're actually dismounted and running their bikes up of a hill, um, in that, that little reel. And so, uh, yeah, for them to maintain a 20 mile an hour. Um, I'd say the average is probably a 15, 14 to 15, uh, pace, uh, and so, and then we have a, a nine hour, uh, cap on the, the 200 K.

[00:37:58]Craig Dalton (host): Gotcha. And are, are people able to ride together in some sections and, you know, ride in a Peloton or does the terrain not allow for that?

[00:38:04]Eric Sutter: Yeah. Yeah. In most sections they can. Um, I do caution them because the roads there are sandy, um, that, um, You know, you can hit a sandy spot and then not be going as fast as you were a second ago.

And if you're too close, then that can cause some issues with, with some riders. But, um, but by and large, it's, uh, like I said, it's, it's, it's, it's usually a hard packed, uh, sandy, not, not like beach sand the whole, whole way.

[00:38:31]Craig Dalton (host): Got it. And then at the completion of the event, what kind of experience do the, uh, participants get to enjoy?

[00:38:37]Eric Sutter: Yeah, so we have live music. We've had live music every year. Um, we've got, uh, Aaron Travis Band is a local, uh, he calls it ag rock. So kind of red dirt, but, uh, he's, he's actually a farmer. Um, he lives in a town, the same town that, uh, Martina McBride is from. Uh, and sharing Kansas. And so, um, yeah, he's, he's a great, uh, great asset to have.

And he, he gets, uh, several of his friends to come and play. And so they have, um, you know, we usually have live music from, uh, right around noon till, uh, six or seven in the evening. And so, uh, so, and it's right on the finish line. So as the riders are coming up, uh, the brick road, uh, they've got a band there playing, cheering them on people, you know, sitting out watching them come across the finish line.

And so, um, they come across the finish line. They get a, a pint glass and a finisher patch for, for finishing. Uh, and then every year we, we change our logo just a little bit. Like we have our, our general logo that we've used from, from year one. Um, and that's kind of our, our standard logo. Uh, but then, uh, we kind of make a tweak every year to, to logo design.

And so like the pint glasses are kind of collector's items because, uh, each year is different. Same, same with the t shirt each year. You've got a different design, uh, on the t shirt. Um, and that's one thing I took from back to the kayaking is, uh, uh, the race had a, a, a decal and every year was a different.

And so, um, so you always wanted to see the different, and you could look at one and they never have the year on them, but you can look at them like, oh, okay, that was a, you know, a 2012 a year or whatever. So, uh, kind of the same, yeah, same way with us. So, yeah, so, yeah, so they come to the finish line, they've got, uh, we give them a free meal as well, uh, some good old Kansas barbecue and, um, and, uh, they pick up all that stuff and, and have a, have a good old time.

[00:40:29]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, sounds amazing. So, I mean, I love how you've described the terrain and the challenges the riders are going to undertake and the different formats you have remind us again the date of the event. When's registration opening up and what's my final question? I can't even remember any, Oh, how, how do people can find you?

[00:40:48]Eric Sutter: Yeah. So, uh, so, so registration actually opens up on Saturday. Uh, Saturday is the 25th, uh, for, uh, those that, uh, may be listening to this later of, of November. So, uh, 25th, November at nine central. Um, and we have kind of a, a neat thing where it's a race before the race. So, um. We, uh, we kind of want to have a little competition to see who can be the fastest to register.

And if you are the fastest, the fastest male and female that register for the 200k, We actually refund your registration fees, so you get to ride for free. So, uh, I love that. It's, it's kind of neat. Uh, one, it was kind of interesting. One year we had, had a gentleman that, uh, I think for like two years in a row, he was like the number two guy.

It was just like, I felt so bad for him. Like, dude, you are so close every year. He just could not crack the, uh, Crack the, the win on that one, but, uh, yeah, so you don't have to be fast on the bike. You just gotta be fast on the keyboard and, uh, you'll get your registration fee, uh, fee comped. I'd love that.

I'd love

[00:41:50]Craig Dalton (host): that. I'd love to see others figure out how to do that in their registration process.

[00:41:54]Eric Sutter: Oh yeah. It's, it's, it's fun. So yeah. So this Saturday, November 25th at nine, uh, nine central, nine a. m. central is our open registration. And then the race itself is April 27th is that Saturday. So if you're doing the tour, of course, that'd be the 26th and 27th, but.

[00:42:11]Craig Dalton (host): Okay. Amazing, Eric. Well, thank you for all the information. This conversation was a long time coming, but it was well worth it. The event sounds amazing. I love your story and, uh, I wish you all the best of luck this

[00:42:23]Eric Sutter: year. Thanks so much. And yeah, yeah. You can check us out, uh, openrangegravel. com. And that's kind of our handle as well for, uh, Instagram and Facebook is at Open Range Gravel.

So perfect. I appreciate you taking the time and, uh, let me kind of tell the story. Of course.

[00:42:39]Craig Dalton: That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. Big, thanks to Eric for coming on and telling us all about his journey to creating the open range gravel event. I hope you go check it out. He's got some great videos on his website, which will be linked to. In the show notes.

Big, thanks to our friends at hammerhead and the hammerhead crew.

To remember that promo code for a free heart rate monitor strap is the gravel ride. If you'd like to support the show, please visit buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride or ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated. For those of you who are celebrating Thanksgiving this week. I wish you a great holiday. And here's the finding some dirt onto your wheels.