Explorez tous les épisodes du podcast The Digital Agency Growth Podcast

Robert Patin has spent the better part of two decades inside agency finance — helping one firm grow from $1.2M to eight figures in 24 months, then taking those lessons to his consultancy, Creative Agency Success. His lens is analytical and unusually direct: most agencies have a pricing problem, and it's not the one they think it is.

In this episode, Robert breaks down why under-pricing rarely solves the objections it's meant to, how AI is quietly reshaping the conversation between agencies and enterprise clients, and what it actually means to use AI well in biz dev versus just delegating your thinking to a chatbot. He also gets into where agencies have a real window to build defensible value right now — and how long that window might be open.

What We Cover:

• The most common pricing mistakes Robert sees — and why under-pricing doesn't actually solve price objections
• Why the sale is almost always lost before the price is even mentioned
• What to ask when a prospect says "it's too expensive"
• How AI is starting to create pricing pressure — and why enterprise clients will feel it first
• The agencies winning with AI in biz dev versus the ones just delegating their thinking
• Using intent signals to reach fewer, better-fit prospects instead of blasting campaigns
• What to automate versus what to keep human in your sales process
• Distilling your expertise into if-then logic that AI can actually use
• Why data is the most valuable asset agencies are sitting on right now
• The race between software companies becoming agencies and agencies becoming software companies
• Where agencies have defensible ground over the next few years — and where they don't

Robert put together a free resource page specifically for Digital Agency Growth listeners — white paper, a free copy of his book, and a link to chat with him directly about your agency.

Go here: creativeagencysuccess.com/digitalagencygrowth

Most agency owners treat legal as a tax — a slow, expensive speed bump between the handshake and the kickoff. Sharon Toerek thinks that's exactly backwards.

Sharon is a marketing and intellectual property attorney who has spent over a decade working exclusively with independent agencies through her firm Torek Law, which operates in the agency world as Legal + Creative. In this episode, she breaks down how agencies leave real money on the table by treating contracts as admin rather than leverage — and what to do instead.

We get into payment terms buried in enterprise agreements that silently stretch 60 days into 90, exclusivity clauses that punish agencies for the specialization clients hired them for, and the IP transfer timing that gives agencies more power than they realize. Sharon also makes the case for why having your own MSA matters even when the big brands will never sign it — and why deals almost never blow up when agencies push back at the contract stage.

What We Cover:

• Why legal should be a money-generating function, not a cost drag
• The payment term language in enterprise contracts that quietly kills cash flow
• How to negotiate exclusivity without giving away more than you need to
• Why you'll never have more leverage than you do right now, at the contract stage
• The IP transfer timing that can become serious financial leverage when a client goes sideways
• Building your own MSA toolkit — and why it matters even when you'll never use it
• Who should be in the room during contract negotiations (and what the lawyer's actual job is)
• How AI is changing the ownership question in agency-client and agency-freelancer agreements
• Turning proprietary frameworks, methodologies, and systems into licensable, sellable IP
• Why deals almost never fall apart when you push back — and what it signals when they do

🎯 Referrals already work for your agency but you've never optimized them...

Get our free 30-minute video crash course - learn how to turn referrals from reactive and random to proactive and systematic.  

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Most agencies lose pitches before they walk in the room. Here's why — and what to do about it.

Grant Gooding, founder of Proof Positioning, has helped agencies win high-stakes pitches using neuroscience, decision physiology, and a research process built on an FBI interrogation technique. The insights are counterintuitive and the results speak for themselves.

In this episode:

-Why 70% of agency pitches fail (and it's not your creative)
-The neuroscience behind why logic-only pitches can't be processed
-The RFP trap — and how box-checking makes you invisible
-How to de-risk a pitch for a multi-stakeholder buying group
-The FBI elicitation method that gets to the truth without asking questions
What "pre-work" looks like — and why it gives agencies an unfair advantage
Why "build me a website" almost always masks a bigger business problem
Grant's 3-step formula for winning the pitches that matter most
The threat to agencies from AI + holding company acquisitions — and how to fight back

Find Grant: proofpositioning.com

🎯 Referrals already work for your agency, but you've never optimized them. 

Get our 30-minute video crash course on how to turn referrals from reactive and random to proactive and systematic: 
https://go.salesschema.com/opt-in-mw-referral-engine/?utm_source=podcast_dag
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Buying patterns have changed - fast. If you're still pitching the same offers the same way you were two years ago, you're probably hearing "let's talk in three months" a lot. 

Mandi Ellefson returns to the show to break down what's actually happening out there, and what agencies and service firms can do about it.

A few things we got into:

• Why clients are freezing, shrinking scope, and pushing timelines — and what's really behind it
• The four-level service pyramid (staff augmentation → high-quality provider → proven ROI → growth partner) and where 80% of the market is stuck generating 20% of the profits
• The "Power of One" formula: one client, one painful problem, one transformation — and why offers built around it command dramatically higher fees
• Why hiring a salesperson before your go-to-market system is built usually makes things worse, not better
• The blind spot most agency owners have when they think "I just need more sales"
• How a sales admin can own 70–80% of the referral and partnership process so the owner only shows up for the conversations
• A real example of an agency that niched into elder care, went from five-figure to seven-figure engagements, and is on a path to $10M

Resources mentioned:

Mandi's upcoming training on the Hands-Off Growth Operating System: handsoffceo.com/briefing

🎯 Referrals already work for your agency, but you've never optimized them. 

Go here to get our 30-minute video crash course on how to turn referrals from reactive and random to proactive and systematic: https://go.salesschema.com/opt-in-mw-referral-engine/?utm_source=podcast_dag

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Adam Yaeger built Llama Lead Gen from solo freelancer to 17-person embedded growth agency over eight years. In this episode, he breaks down what actually drove that growth — and what didn't.

We get into why he put branding on the back burner early (and why that was the right call), the hiring mistake that cost him a client relationship, and why soft skills matter more in the age of AI, not less. On the biz dev side, Adam shares what's worked for Llama Lead Gen — SEO, Clutch, referrals — and why cold outreach mostly didn't. Plus a few partnership stories, including what happens when white labeling goes sideways.

We also dig into GEO (Generative Engine Optimization) and why Reddit has quietly become one of the more interesting paid channels for B2B.
What we cover:

-Growing from solo to 17 people over eight years
-Why branding can wait — and when it can't
-How Llama Lead Gen gets new business: SEO, Clutch, and referrals
-Partnership wins and one memorable miss
-Balancing client delivery with sales when you're the only BD
-Managing seasonality: when to push, when to pull back 

Resources Mentioned

Llama Lead Gen: https://www.llamaleadgen.com/
— Marketing budgeting and PPC calculators available on the site

Lead Gen in the Wild Podcast: Available on Spotify, Apple, and wherever you listen 

Learn the small shift that makes referrals repeatable. Check out our new video training: https://hey.salesschema.com/opt-in-mw-referral-engine?utm_source=podcast

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Most agencies treat the RFP as the cost of doing business. Chris Rose has built a career out of sidestepping them entirely — landing clients like Hilton, Planet Fitness, and NBC Universal along the way.

Chris serves as Executive Director of Growth at Cylinder Studios, a design and production studio within the Cheil Agency Network. Before that, he led new business at Movers and Shakers. We got into why RFPs are almost always poorly written, how to bypass procurement with preferred vendor status, what's changing with AI and pricing, and why the best pitch teams are smaller than you'd think.

What You'll Leave With:
- Diagnose before you pitch — co-write the brief with the client
- Become a preferred vendor to bypass procurement
- Smaller pitch teams win more
- Production is the new strategy
- Stay close to the work after you win it

Connect with Chris on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-rose22/
Cylinder Studios: https://www.cylinderstudios.com/

Learn the small shift that makes referrals repeatable. Check out our new video training: https://hey.salesschema.com/opt-in-mw-referral-engine?utm_source=podcast

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Most agency owners assume nobody can sell as well as they can. Lori Cox built an agency, sold it, and then took a BizDev leadership role — and says she's actually sharper at sales now that she's not running the whole show.

Lori brings 20+ years of B2B marketing and revenue experience. She built and sold a full-service healthcare-focused agency, then moved into VP of BizDev at Knack Collective, where she works with global tech companies on partner-led go-to-market strategies. We got into the systems that made her agency sellable, why most partnership pitches go nowhere, and how the inbound/outbound mix has shifted heading into 2026.

What You'll Leave With:

• Systems before salespeople
• Partnerships require intention and attention
• Diversify your pipeline, not just your client base
• Non-owners can be better salespeople
• AI is changing the job, not replacing it

Connect with Lori on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lori-cox-mba/

Knack Collective: https://knackcollective.com/

Learn the small shift that makes referrals repeatable. 

Check out our new video training. 

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What happens when years of planting seeds finally meets the right market moment?

Alexis Trammel is Chief Growth Officer at Stratabeat, a B2B SaaS organic growth agency. She recently transitioned from account management into a biz dev role.  But the real story is how timing and preparation collided. For years, Stratabeat was doing the unglamorous work: niching down, building LinkedIn presence, publishing original research, speaking at conferences, nurturing relationships. Then GEO (generative engine optimization) hit right as AI anxiety peaked, and suddenly the leads started flooding in. This conversation explores what it looks like when the groundwork you've been laying finally pays off, and why most agencies aren't ready when their moment arrives.

What You'll Leave With:

• Why lead flow needs to exist before you hire a salesperson—not the other way around
• How years of niching down positioned them to catch the GEO wave
• The compounding value of original research, LinkedIn presence, and conference visibility
• Why internal sales hires often outperform external ones when the foundation is there
• How to keep planting seeds even when you're not sure which one will sprout
• The seasonality reality and why "when it rains, it pours" cuts both ways

Timestamps:

• [00:00] Introduction to Alexis Trammel and Stratabeat
• [02:36] The long road of niching down and eliminating services
• [03:19] When AI panic created unexpected demand for GEO
• [05:16] Original research as a lead gen and credibility play
• [07:46] Coming back from maternity leave to a sales opportunity
• [10:00] Why the lead flow has to come before the sales hire
• [11:47] Wearing both the sales and marketing hats
• [14:10] Planning for seasonality when you're riding a wave
• [16:41] LinkedIn as long-term brand building, not cold outreach
• [22:04] GEO converting better than almost everything except referrals
• [30:12] The relationship groundwork that makes referrals possible

Mentioned Resources / Links:

• Stratabeat - B2B SaaS organic growth agency
• Never Eat Alone by Keith Ferrazzi
• Alexis Trammell on LinkedIn
• Tom Shapiro on LinkedIn

When clients start asking "What am I paying you for?", most assume they have a pricing problem on their hands when they're actually facing an operations problem. 

Leah Leaves is the founder and CEO of Alderaan Operations, where she embeds operations directors and part-time digital project managers directly into remote agencies.  In this conversation, she reveals what's happening when clients question an agency's value - asking for more deliverables, questioning reports, or wondering why they can't just use cheap tools themselves. 

A few things we covered: 

• Why the same operational bottlenecks agencies have always had are now happening at 10x-100x speed
• The exact question clients are asking agencies right now (and how the best agencies are answering it)
• How agencies are reinvesting time saved by AI into client experience, productized tools, and advisory services
• The "bionic org chart" framework for documenting what AI owns versus what humans own
• A practical system for turning meeting transcripts into searchable client context that actually gets used
• Why hiring people who want to stay static in their role is a feature, not a bug
• The shift from deliverables-based positioning to strategic marketing partner (and why AI makes this more urgent)

Timestamps:

• [00:00] Introduction: Leah Leaves and the state of agency operations
• [01:26] Same issues, 10x-100x speed: What's really changing with AI
• [03:37] The question clients are asking: "What am I paying you for?"
• [06:38] How agencies are answering the value question differently
• [11:15] Moving from execution to advisory: Selling thinking, not deliverables
• [15:30] The art of productive client meetings (and why most fail)
• [20:45] Hiring strategy: Finding people who want to grow vs. stay static
• [29:47] The bionic org chart: Documenting AI's role on your team
• [32:17] Practical AI implementation: Turning meeting notes into searchable knowledge
• [34:20] Ideas that wouldn't exist without reduced latency
• [35:29] Where to find Leah and learn more about operation

Alderaan Operations - Leah's company embedding ops directors in agencies

Leah Leaves on LinkedIn - Connect with Leah

Looking to build a repeatable, referral-focus biz dev system inside of your agency?

Check out our new video training: https://hey.salesschema.com/opt-in-mw-referral-engine

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What if successful agency business development isn't about having the perfect system, but about showing up consistently in the right conversations?

John Caruso is the Director of Business Development at Vendilli, where he's spent the last six years navigating the messy reality of agency growth. With a decade of BD experience spanning traditional and digital agencies, John has learned that there's no magic formula, just consistent effort in the right places. In this conversation, he shares the unglamorous truth about what BD actually looks like day-to-day, why agency owners set their BD hires up to fail by expecting results too quickly, and how he learned the craft by sitting in dozens upon dozens of sales meetings with his team. 

What You'll Leave With:

• The realistic timeline for a BD hire to become truly effective at an agency
• How to structure your day when client needs constantly derail your plans
• Why sitting in sales meetings with experienced agency owners builds BD skills faster than any course
• The "shortlist" dynamic that determines whether prospects even consider your agency
• How to think about the division between marketing and sales activities
• What systems need to exist before bringing on a dedicated BD person
• An education-first approach to staying top of mind without being pushy

Timestamps:

• [00:00] Introduction: John's journey from traditional to digital agency BD
• [02:30] The reality of a day in the life of agency business development
• [05:40] What activities consistently drive revenue for agencies
• [10:30] Why getting on prospect "shortlists" matters more than perfect positioning
• [15:45] Moving beyond transactional referral requests
• [20:15] How the BD landscape has shifted over the past decade
• [28:34] What needs to be in place before hiring a BD person
• [29:04] The learning curve: why it takes 6-9 months minimum to see results
• [31:10] How Vendilli divides marketing and sales responsibilities
• [33:25] Where to learn more about John and Vendilli

Vendelli: https://www.vendilli.com/ 

John on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johncaruso-vendilli/

Here's what nobody tells you about referrals: the real value isn't the introduction, it's identifying who will keep referring you for years.

In this episode, Dan breaks down why the classic "let me know if you know anyone who needs our services" approach fails almost every time, and walks through a systematic process for turning your existing network into a consistent source of warm introductions, tastefully. 

What You'll Leave With:

• Why asking "know anyone who might need our services?" puts massive cognitive load on your contacts (and what to ask instead)
• The three biggest referral mistakes agency owners make and how each one sabotages your results
• How vertical vs. horizontal relationships determine whether someone will refer you 
• The specific ask process: transitioning from categories of people to named individuals your connector actually knows
• A practical approach to mapping your LinkedIn network for "referral ready connectors" without spam
• Why strategic partnerships should be prototyped through referrals first, not started with commission structures
• How to think about the time investment: high-touch, high-leverage vs. volume plays that don't fit specialized agencies 

Resources 

Are you an upmarket-focused agency interested in setting up a referral-based new business system?  

Lets talk - go here for details: https://hey.salesschema.com/referral-engine-lp

New Video Training.

Referrals already work for your agency, but you've never optimized them.  Learn how in our latest video training: https://hey.salesschema.com/opt-in-mw-referral-engine 

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This year-end review distills the most important lessons from a year of conversations with agency owners, researchers, and growth experts who've been in the trenches.

What You'll Leave With:

• Why trust has replaced awareness and differentiation as the scarce resource in agency growth
• The counterintuitive sales-to-delivery handoff that makes closing easier (even though it seems expensive)
• How to move referrals from passive hope to systematic pipeline generation
• The difference between economic headwinds as obstacles versus excuses
• Why specialization is no longer a debate but table stakes for competitive agencies
• The rise of agency perspective 
• An under-discussed macro trend that could reshape entire marketing niches over the next few years

Episodes Referenced:  

-Nick Petroski: https://salesschema.com/the-data-you-need-before-you-build-your-2026-biz-dev-plan-with-nick-petroski/

-Brooke MacLean: https://salesschema.com/how-brooke-maclean-built-an-80-person-agency-with-zero-debt/

-Brock Murray: https://salesschema.com/scaling-past-50-employees-how-seo-plus-built-a-global-agency/

-Spencer Gallagher: 

-Stewart Gandolf:  https://salesschema.com/lessons-from-building-an-eight-figure-niche-agency-stewart-gandolf/

-Erik J. Olson:  https://salesschema.com/erik-j-olson-on-why-most-agencies-plateau-and-how-to-build-one-that-grows-predictably/

-Stephen Woessner: https://salesschema.com/stephen-woessner-on-the-smile-graph-ais-impact-on-agencies/

-Karl Sakas: https://salesschema.com/karl-sakas-on-scaling-smart-and-reclaiming-your-time/

-Todd Gagne: https://salesschema.com/karl-sakas-on-scaling-smart-and-reclaiming-your-time/

Chances are referrals work for your agency.  Maybe they're the only thing that ever has.  But you've never optimized them.  

[Note: this is an encore of an episode originally aired 12/3/25]. 

If your agency is stuck in "the Cobbler's Children phase", where you deliver great work for clients but new business feels chaotic and reactive, this episode offers a way out. I'm sharing my referral workshop from the All In Agency Summit, condensed from 60 to 30 minutes of pure strategy. This isn't about random networking or hoping referrals happen. It's about installing a repeatable system that generates 2-5 targeted introductions weekly without cold outreach spam or burning out your team. 

What You'll Leave With:

• The four-level agency maturity model and how to identify which phase you're actually in
• Why the 2020 shift made trust—not awareness—the scarce resource in B2B sales
• The high school gym versus NFL stadium test for choosing the right lead gen strategy based on your market size
• A two-pronged outreach approach that keeps your pipeline full even when you're wearing too many hats
• The simple emotional game-changer that gets introductions to actually happen instead of sitting in limbo
• The one data tool you need to get started without expensive SaaS platforms
• Why asking for referrals is actually a positive-sum game that benefits everyone involved
• How to systematize client referrals so your account team generates opportunities automatically
• The sprint-to-marathon framework that proves this approach scales beyond your immediate network

if you're using the holiday break to plan for a strong Q1, this conversation will reshape how you think about pipeline.

[this is an Encore Episode originally aired December 3, 2025]

Nick Petroski, founder of Promethean Research and the industry's go-to source for agency market data, spent years studying what actually drives growth for digital agencies. Not best practices or guru advice, but real numbers from real shops.

What he found challenges conventional wisdom. The agencies getting the most predictable growth aren't the ones with the slickest outbound machines, they're the ones who've built systems around relationships they already have. Nick breaks down the ownership gaps, comp structures, and tactical frameworks that separate random referrals from repeatable revenue. If you're heading into 2026 wondering whether your pipeline issues are a "you" problem or a market problem, this conversation will help you see which levers you actually control.

What You'll Leave With:
-The "is it me or the market?" framework for diagnosing your real pipeline problems
-Why shrinking total addressable markets make relationship-based growth less optional and more strategic
-How to structure account manager compensation to drive growth, not just retention (70-30 vs 60-40 splits explained)
-A tactical approach for asking clients for specific introductions without feeling pushy or salesy
-Why your Fortune 500 "locked down" account might actually be your biggest referral opportunity
-The consultative mindset shift that makes asking for referrals feel like service, not sales
-How to identify which accounts actually have referral potential worth pursuing

Mentioned Resources / Links:

-Video Training: How to Scale Your Agency with Systematic Referrals and Strategic Partnerships (30 min)

-From Random to Repeatable: The Digital Agency Referral Playbook - Nick's research report on systematizing referrals

What actually drives agency growth when pipelines are noisy, buyers are skeptical, and everyone sounds the same?

In this episode, Dan Englander sits down with Alex Marshall, a longtime agency growth leader with two decades of experience across holding companies and independents, to unpack what really moves the needle. They explore why trust and relevance matter more than tactics, how storytelling shows up late in the sales cycle, and why relationships compound over time even when results aren’t immediate.

This is a grounded conversation about growth as a discipline, not a hack. 

🧭 What You’ll Learn

• The real differences between growth at holding companies vs independents
• Why agency specialization can both help and hurt sales
• How storytelling works after the first sales call
• Why “just checking in” emails fail
• What actually reactivates dormant or boomerang clients
• How to stay relevant to skeptical CMOs
• Why relationship-building beats short-term metrics
• How agencies should think about referrals and alliances

🕒 Timestamps

00:00 – Alex’s background and global agency experience 
 04:30 – Holding companies vs independents: growth tradeoffs
 06:00 – Relationship-building across regions and cultures
 10:20 – When specialization helps — and when it limits you
 16:45 – Storytelling as a sales tool, not just marketing
 20:40 – Coalition-building in complex B2B sales
 23:30 – Re-engaging dormant and boomerang clients
 26:40 – Why timing and relevance matter more than frequency
 29:20 – Managing time across the full funnel
 32:10 – Measuring progress without over-relying on metrics
 35:00 – Selling to skeptical CMOs in uncertain markets
 38:00 – Why referrals and trust compound over time
 41:00 – Strategic partnerships and being “something to someone”
 45:45 – Making referral asks easier — and more effective

What if the agencies that crush Q1 aren't working harder in January, they're making one  or two critical decisions right now, in December?

In this solo episode, Dan reveals why Q1 consistently catches agencies off-guard and what separates those who stumble into the new year from those who hit the ground running. The secret isn't about working through the holidays or setting ambitious goals—it's about installing a systematic referral system during Q4's quieter moments. 

What You'll Leave With:

• Why trust, not awareness, became the scarce resource after 2020 and how it changes your approach
• The four stages agencies move through and how to identify which phase you're stuck in
• The "high school gym vs. NFL stadium" test for choosing the right lead generation strategy based on market size
• How to structure connector calls to get 2-5 quality referrals from a single conversation
• The simple human emotion that makes people actually follow through on promised introductions
• A two-pronged outreach system that keeps your pipeline full even when you're buried in client work
• Why making it easier for people to help you eliminates the awkwardness of asking for referrals
• The one free data tool you need to get started without expensive SaaS platforms

Timestamps:

• [00:00] Introduction: The strange Q4 gap period and what's coming
• [02:33] The Cobbler's children phase and why most agencies get stuck there
• [05:00] The four stages of agency growth and how they're detached from revenue
• [09:15] The 2020 trust recession and why cold outreach stopped working
• [12:30] High school gym vs. NFL stadium: Choosing the right strategy for your market
• [16:45] The systematic referral framework: How to generate warm intros weekly
• [21:20] Structuring connector calls to get 2-5 referrals per conversation
• [24:10] The emotional game changer that makes introductions actually happen
• [27:17] Common objections: "This seems like too much work" and "I'm worried about asking for help"
• [29:35] How this scales beyond your initial network (sprint, jog, run phases)
• [31:54] The Referral Engine Program and Referral Network Diagnostic offer

Quotes: 

"A lot of agencies end up in level two, which we call the Cobbler's children phase. They have a track record, they've produced results for clients, but new business is very reactive—it's very much catch as catch can." — Dan Englander

"After 2020, we saw a massive shift. Trust became the scarce resource, not awareness. Everyone's inbox is full, everyone's LinkedIn is saturated, and people have gotten really good at tuning out anything that feels like cold outreach." — Dan Englander

"If you're getting on a call a day—like an apple a day keeps the doctor away—or five calls a week, that is usually more than enough to hit 99% of sales goals." — Dan Englander

If you’re planning your 2026 biz dev strategy without real market data, you’re guessing. In this episode, I talk with friend of the show Nicholas Petroski, founder of Promethean Research and creator of the Digital Agency Referral Playbook, about what the numbers actually say—and how top agencies are using referrals, account growth, and GTM clarity to build next year’s plan. This is the clearest look you’ll get at what’s really moving the needle heading into 2026.

🧭 What You’ll Learn

• The referral trends shaping 2026 pipeline planning
• Why most agencies misread pipeline health
• What data actually predicts account growth
• The role of referrals in a tighter 2026 GTM
• Who should really own the referral process
• How to identify your most valuable connectors
• Why “good work” isn’t enough to drive intros
• What the best shops are fixing before January

🕒 Timestamps

00:00 – Why 2026 planning requires real data
 01:02 – Nick’s new research & why referrals matter now
 03:11 – From Random to Repeatable: core findings
 05:45 – Why agencies still handle referrals passively
 07:29 – The shrinking TAM + rising skepticism problem
 09:22 – Who should own referrals (and who shouldn’t)
 12:40 – Cross-sell models that actually grow accounts
 14:36 – Pipeline health vs conversion vs system health
 18:07 – How to operationalize intros without friction
 23:59 – The risk of relying on 1–2 referral sources
 27:26 – Why referrals must be part of your GTM
 29:15 – The mindset shift from “salesy” to consultative
 33:00 – What the data says agencies must fix for 2026

🔑 Key Quotes

“Referrals work—if you treat them like a system, not a hope.” — Nick Petroski“

Agencies don’t have a lead problem. They have a clarity problem.” — Nick Petroski

📢 Links and Resources 

From Random to Repeatable: How Agencies Turn Referrals into a Reliable Growth Engine

If you want a repeatable referral system heading into 2026, grab my book 📘 Relationship Sales at Scale

Most agencies try to fix pipeline by working harder, but not by working smarter.

This conversation digs into why outbound has gotten tougher, what’s changed in the last decade, and how agencies can build a healthier, more defensible acquisition motion. We cover the shift from brute-force outreach to signal-driven, trust-based systems, why TAM size changes everything, and how sales and marketing need to operate as a single unit for mid-market deals. It’s a clear look at the mechanics behind winning in a crowded outreach landscape. 

Michael Maximoff is the co-founder of Belkins and the team behind Folderly. He’s spent more than a decade solving the same problems agencies face today: building predictable pipeline in a crowded, trust-heavy market, balancing marketing and sales investment, and adapting outbound to a world that no longer responds to direct pitches.

• Why cold outreach used to work with simple tools and high volume, and why that era is over
• How inbox competition jumped from ~100 cold pitches/month per decision-maker to 800+ today
• Why small TAMs require a different playbook and more precision, not more activity
• The importance of costly signals, warm intros, and touch-point-driven credibility instead of direct pitches
• How sales and marketing must operate in tandem to create “surround sound” and increase conversion likelihood
• Why mid-market agencies should hire full-cycle AEs who can build their own book of business
• The danger of giving SDRs outdated brute-force mandates in a world where the role is now a technical, marketing-adjacent function
• How deeper integrations (HubSpot, Salesforce, Clay) are reshaping outreach, personalization, and data orchestration
• Why agencies must choose the channel they have a true “genetic advantage” for.

Links & Resources

• Belkins — https://belkins.io
• Folderly — https://folderly.com
• Michael on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/maximoff

 

In this episode, Dan Englander sits down with Garrett Jestice, former CMO and founder of Prelude, to unpack how to turn that randomness into a repeatable Go-To-Market (GTM) system that actually compounds.

Garrett helps B2B agencies and service businesses replace scattered marketing efforts with a focused GTM strategy built on customer proof — clarifying audience, offer, messaging, and channels so growth stops being a guessing game.

They break down why most agencies start with the wrong things (channels before clarity), how to pick the right market segment, and how to make growth repeatable without losing focus or burning resources.

 What You’ll Learn

• Why most agencies get stuck after $1M — and how to fix it
• The four foundations of a real GTM system: Audience, Offer, Messaging, Channels
• How to pick one market segment and own it (without overthinking TAM)
• Why you can’t scale custom work — and what to do instead
• The “maintenance and support” offer that helped one agency grow faster
• When to productize vs. stay bespoke
• How to make referrals and warm intros systematic, not lucky
• Why every audience–offer combo needs its own GTM strategy
• How to align sales, marketing, and delivery around the same message

👉 Want to build referrals systematically instead of relying on luck? Grab my book 📘 Relationship Sales at Scale: https://salesschema.com/book

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In this episode, Dan Englander talks with Brooke MacLean, CEO of Marketwake, one of the Southeast’s fastest-growing digital agencies and a five-time Inc. 5000 honoree. Brooke shares how she bootstrapped Marketwake from a solo consulting gig into an 80-person powerhouse serving clients like Yamaha, University of Georgia, and Machete Jewelry — all through relationships, trust, and disciplined growth.

They dig into the nuances of business development, leadership, and scaling without losing your creative spark.

🧭 What You’ll Learn

• Bootstrapping an 80-person agency: how Brooke built Marketwake with no funding and no debt
• The 15% rule: why no client should ever represent more than 15% of your revenue
• Bringing your team into sales: how involving account leads early shortens cycles and builds trust
• Time as a sales lever: why real urgency beats fake scarcity every time
• Account-based marketing, redefined: how Marketwake blends data, relationships, and timing to reach dream clients
• Referrals, chemistry, and “the spark”: how authentic connection drives growth more than any funnel hack

In this solo episode, Dan Englander breaks down a truth most agency owners quietly suspect: the majority of sales and marketing advice out there was never written for firms like yours.

Most “agency growth” tactics are built for high-volume, productized services with large addressable markets—not for boutique, complex-service agencies selling trust, nuance, and strategy to a few hundred ideal clients.

Dan calls this dynamic “The Great Mismatch.”

He unpacks why the standard playbooks fail, what constraints actually define upmarket agencies, and how to replace random referrals with a systematic, high-trust growth engine.

In this episode
• The Great Mismatch: How agency sales advice got optimized for SaaS and high-volume lead-gen firms, not for complex, relationship-driven work.
• The Three Constraints Framework: Why your resources, offer, and market size determine your best-fit growth strategy.
• The Trust Recession: Why decision-makers are slower to move, and how to build credibility in smaller, skeptical markets.
• High School Gym vs. NFL Stadium: How to visualize your true total addressable market and stop over-optimizing for scale.
• The Two-Pronged Framework: How to balance direct outreach with systematic referrals and partnerships.
• The Referral Engine Playbook: Step-by-step—identifying “Referral-Ready Connectors,” mapping your market in LinkedIn Sales Navigator, and running collaborative intro calls that produce real pipeline.
• Partnerships Without the Awkwardness: Why commission-based partner pitches don’t work and how to build trust-first collaboration loops.

Key Idea
“Most of what’s being sold as ‘agency growth’ advice assumes you have a sales team, a simple offer, and a massive market. But if your service is complex, your team is lean, and your clients are few, you need a different operating system entirely.” — Dan Englander

Resources Mentioned
Relationship Sales at Scale → salesschema.com/book
Referral Network Diagnostic Workshop → salesschema.com/diagnostic

Takeaway
For boutique agencies, growth doesn’t come from chasing more leads—it comes from getting more leverage out of the relationships you already have.

The sooner you recognize The Great Mismatch, the sooner you can build a system that actually fits your market, your team, and your offer.

Every few months, I like to pause and look back at the ideas that resonated most with agency owners on LinkedIn — the ones that got people talking, DM’ing, and quietly saying yeah, that’s been my experience too.

This episode isn’t about tactics. It’s a quick tour through the lessons that seem to keep coming up again and again in our world, the stuff we all wrestle with if we’ve been selling complex services for a long time. 

Stuff I cover

• The trouble with the awkward commission pitch and a better way.
• The Low-Data Agency trap — why relying on reactive referrals clouds judgement.
• Going from reactive to proactive — what happens when you finally own your pipeline.
• The real meaning of specialization — how narrowing your market opens everything up.
• Why you should ship a “crappy” campaign and the power of imperfect action.
• The limits of intent data and why trust beats timing every time.
• Planning for an exit by dead-simple milestones.

 

In this episode, Dan Englander welcomeed Carl Smith, community builder and leader of The Bureau, for a wide-ranging, no-BS conversation on where the agency world is headed.

🧭 What You’ll Learn

• The “Philosophical Futurist” Mindset
  How to face rapid change—especially around AI—without fear or cynicism.
• Inside The Bureau
  The story behind one of the most influential agency communities and how it evolved from a 24-person retreat to a 1,400-member ecosystem.
• The New Agency Model: Guilds & Partnerships
  Why the future favors hyper-specialized micro-teams that plug into clients like “turbo packs,” collaborating through shared KPIs and accountability—not time and materials.
• The Apathy Epidemic
  Why so many leaders feel burned out, how “easy mode” ended, and how to reignite autonomy, mastery, and purpose.
• Rethinking Retainers & Biz Dev
  Why traditional retainers may be giving way to “progress-based” models and how the best BD teams are closing deals through transparency, empathy, and calm persistence.

🔑 Quotes

“We didn’t know it then, but the early 2000s were easy mode. There was so much money and mystery around what we did. Now we have to be business people—and that’s okay.” — Carl Smith

“Some are way ahead with AI, some are stuck in the messy middle, and some still have their heads in the sand.” — Carl Smith

“If you wait for things to get back to normal, you’ll miss what is normal.”
— Carl Smith

🔗 Resources & Links

• The Bureau — thebureau.community
• Follow Carl on LinkedIn
• Connect with Dan Englander

Most agencies don’t have a lead generation problem—they have a leverage problem. In this episode of The Digital Agency Growth Podcast, Dan Englander dives deep into how agencies can grow faster by amplifying what they already have: past clients, case studies, frameworks, and relationships. Forget chasing the latest marketing fad or new sales channels; sometimes the fastest path to growth is working smarter with the assets already in your hands.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode:

• What “leverage” really means for agencies and why it’s more valuable than chasing new leads.
• The three most common areas of hidden leverage: intellectual property, positioning data, and relationships.
• How to map your network to identify referral-ready connectors and multiply opportunities.
• Practical strategies to repurpose past work, frameworks, and wins to attract new business.
• The mindset shift from more to better, focusing on improving existing assets rather than constantly seeking new channels.
• Step-by-step actions to start activating leverage immediately, from client outreach to framework publishing.

Key Takeaways:

• Inventory your assets: past clients, testimonials, frameworks, partnerships, and wins.
• Prioritize small moves that have outsized impact.
• Reconnect strategically with relationships that can introduce you to your ideal prospects.
• Use your IP and insights to scale trust, not just output.
• Focus on amplification over acquisition: sometimes growth comes from refinement, not expansion.

In this episode, I sat down with @Sharon Toerek from Innovative Agency to talk about the real shifts happening in agency business development — and the constant evolution that comes with them. We unpacked why 2025 is the year agencies need to get honest about their positioning, how trust — not information — has become the key currency, and why specialization isn’t just smart, it’s essential for survival.

⏱️ Timestamps

0:00 – Welcome and introduction: why the agency landscape feels confusing in 2025
2:10 – The “trust recession” and why agencies are more anxious than ever
5:00 – Why information is cheap but credibility is expensive
6:30 – Specialization as a core sales lever (not just a niche tactic)
9:45 – The fear that keeps most agencies from focusing
12:00 – What ruins deals when you’re not specialized
13:30 – Why the “show, don’t tell” principle beats overblown ROI claims
15:00 – Thought leadership as a frictionless entry point
17:30 – How to build thought leadership around your ICP (not your ego)
19:00 – Should the founder always be the face of the content?
21:30 – Balancing new client acquisition with organic growth
23:00 – Dan’s “Trust Matrix” for prioritizing outbound calls
24:30 – Systematizing referrals (without being weird about it)
26:00 – The three “food groups” of agency sales
28:00 – Why most agencies over-engineer outbound and underdeliver
29:30 – What’s surprised Dan about agency sales in recent years
31:00 – What smart agency owners are doing differently
32:00 – Where AI helps — and where it’s just shiny object syndrome
34:00 – Why more agencies will start to look like consultancies soon
35:00 – Where to go to learn more about Dan’s model

🔑 What You’ll Learn in This Episode

• Why we’re in a “trust recession” — and how it’s quietly killing cold outreach
• How to develop perspective, not just thought leadership
• Why specialization isn’t optional — it’s how you earn trust
• A practical way to turn your network into a referral engine
• The three-part system Dan recommends for reliable agency growth
• Who should own sales and content when you’re a small agency (and what to do if it’s you)
• Why agencies that ignore perspective end up sounding like everyone else
• The difference between old-school hustle and smart modern outbound

In this episode of the Digital Agency Growth Podcast, I’m joined by Brock Murray, co-founder of seoplus+, a digital marketing agency he launched back in 2012 that has grown into a 50+ person team serving clients across North America and beyond.

Brock shares the arc of his journey, from launching his first web hosting business at 14, to building seoplus+ with his partner Eddie, to scaling through multiple growth stages while navigating the challenges of delegation, client specialization, and leadership layers.

If you’re running an agency, this episode is a playbook on scaling without losing touch, adapting to seismic industry shifts like AI search, and building a growth engine that lasts.

⏱️ Timestamps

0:00 – Intro & Brock’s early start in web hosting at age 14

1:00 – Founding seoplus+ in 2012 and partnering with Eddie

2:00 – Growth stages: from the first hire to 10, 25, and 50 employees

3:30 – The challenge of scaling culture and building management layers

5:00 – Hybrid account management and the role of AMs in sales

7:00 – Upsells, long-term relationships, and winning bigger accounts

9:30 – Balancing farming existing clients vs. chasing new ones

12:00 – Building a partner program: from 20 informal partners to 80+ active ones

15:00 – Partnerships vs. web leads vs. outbound

16:00 – Scaling from meetups to AI-focused community events

18:00 – Outbound experiments: Apollo, coffee chats, and free AI brand audits

20:00 – Structuring partnerships transparently and acquiring a partner’s business

23:00 – Fractional CMOs (VCMOs) as high-value partners

24:00 – How Brock got out of the sales seat and what made it possible

27:00 – Building trust and reach through events—local vs. national scale

30:00 – Fewer clicks from Google, more searches on ChatGPT & Gemini

32:00 – Launching Generative Engine Optimization and building AI tools internally

34:00 – Why agencies can now afford to build internal products

35:00 – The future of SEO: rebrand or double down?

37:00 – Where to connect with Brock online

🔑 What You’ll Learn in This Episode

• How Brock scaled seoplus+ from two partners to a 50+ person global agency.
• The “resistance line” at 50 employees and how to push through.
• Why hybrid account management can be both a strength and a bottleneck.
• How to use events as a serious new business channel (without getting stuck locally).
• Why partnerships with VCMOs and boutique agencies can lead to acquisitions.
• How outbound campaigns, coffee chats, and case studies fuel growth.
• Why clicks from Google are dropping and what Generative Engine Optimization means for agencies.
• How to leverage AI tools internally to save hundreds of hours and increase ROI.
• The looming question: does SEO need a rebrand in the age of AI?

🔗 Links & Resources

• Relationship Sales at Scale™

Most agencies live and die by referrals.

But here’s the catch:

• They usually happen randomly.
• When you do ask for intros, it feels like giving people homework.
• And even if you’re consistent, it’s hard to know where the real opportunities actually are.

In this solo episode, I share my journey from the “analog networking” days of wandering trade shows… to running hundreds of cold campaigns during the trust recession… to finally cracking the code on how to make referrals systematic, scalable, and predictable.

You’ll learn:

• Why SaaS-style sales playbooks fail for agencies
• How to map your connectors against your market to uncover hidden paths into targeted accounts
• Why reducing friction, not persuasion, makes referrals stick
• The simple weekly cadence that can turn referrals from “rain dance” to irrigation system

In this episode, I talk with @Audrey Kwan in the Small But Mighty Agency, to tackle one of the most misunderstood growth levers in agency land: referrals. Together, they unpack how trust is the new currency in a cold-lead-saturated market—and how smart agencies are building systems around referrals, not just hoping they happen.

⏱️ Timestamps

0:00 – Why cold outreach is failing and trust is everything

2:10 – The rise of trust-based selling in the agency world

5:40 – Why personalization alone isn’t enough in 2025

7:30 – How to ask for referrals the right way

9:45 – Building “circles of trust” and systems around relationships

13:00 – Using LinkedIn as a referral engine

16:00 – Why referrals still require consistency and structure

18:00 – The real reason most agency sales systems break

20:00 – Direct vs. indirect control: a smarter way to plan sales activity

22:30 – Metrics and referral math: how to reverse engineer deal flow

25:00 – Specialization as a sales advantage (and trust shortcut)

27:30 – Strategic partnerships beyond client referrals

29:00 – What kind of agencies thrive with Dan’s model

31:00 – What needs to be in place before handing off sales

33:00 – Dan’s biggest mindset shift about agency growth

34:00 – Where to learn more about Dan’s process

🔑 What You’ll Learn in This Episode

Why cold outreach is widening the trust gap—and what to do instead

How to turn random referrals into a repeatable, systemized sales engine

Why agency founders need to own sales before they delegate it

The one sales hire mistake that can cost you six months (and how to avoid it)

How specialization accelerates trust—and shortens your sales cycle

In this episode of the Digital Agency Growth Podcast, I’m joined by Eric Baum, founder and CEO of Blue Leads—one of the top HubSpot Solutions Partners globally.

Eric shares the full arc of his journey, from accidentally starting an agency after hacking Yellow Pages spend for his plumbing business, to scaling a team of 40+, to building one of the most successful HubSpot implementations agencies in the world.

We dig into what it actually takes to get out of the sales seat, build second-layer leadership, and scale without losing your mind.

If you're running an agency, this is a masterclass in letting go, thinking bigger, and staying relevant in a fast-changing market.

⏱️ Timestamps

0:00 – Intro & Eric’s journey from plumbing franchises to marketing

2:30 – How $25K Yellow Pages spend turned into Blue Leads

4:00 – Betting on HubSpot before anyone cared

6:00 – From accidental agency to structured growth

9:00 – Discovering EOS and transforming the business

13:00 – Cash flow traps and scaling mistakes

16:00 – Why most agencies grow like a jigsaw puzzle

18:00 – “Inbound is broken” – what’s working now

21:00 – Strategic partnerships & the Crossbeam approach

23:30 – AI hype vs. actual implementation: where to invest

26:00 – Building your second layer of leadership

30:00 – Letting go of the vine – how to replace yourself

34:00 – What tools and platforms Eric would bet on today

37:00 – If he had to start over, here’s what he’d do

39:00 – The sales team you should’ve hired

42:00 – Where to find Eric online (and why he loves war stories)

🔑 What You’ll Learn in This Episode

• How Eric scaled Blue Leads into a top 5 global HubSpot partner.
• Why inbound is dying—and what’s replacing it
• The leadership move that separates scaling from stalling
• The #1 mistake agency owners make when hiring their first salesperson.
• What happened when their traffic dropped from 300K to 10K/month.
• How partnerships and AI agents are generating leads faster than cold outreach.
• The secret to staying relevant when your clients.
• Why agency growth looks like a jigsaw, not a hockey stick

Proposals can make or break your agency’s Q4 pipeline. Too vague, and prospects don’t see the value. Too detailed, and they get stuck in analysis paralysis. In this episode, Dan is joined by Joe Ardeeser, founder of Smart Pricing Table, to talk about how agencies can strike the right balance, upsell strategically, and close deals faster as the year wraps up.

Whether you’re facing slow proposals, scope creep, or undercharging, this conversation gives you practical steps to turn proposals into a growth engine for your agency.

🔑 What You’ll Learn in This Episode

• How to avoid the two biggest proposal mistakes: being too vague or too detailed.
• A simple framework for including upsells and add-ons without overwhelming prospects.
• Why proposals should be viewed as sales tools, not just paperwork.
• How to use clarity and transparency to build trust with brand decision-makers.
• The proposal strategies agencies can use right now to finish Q4 stronger.

This framing ties the conversation directly to timely biz dev priorities (Q4 closing, pipeline health), makes Joe’s expertise clear, and positions the episode as a tactical resource for agencies.

Links & Resources:

• Smart Pricing Table

As summer winds down, many agencies face the same problem: pipelines that dried up in July and August, and a mad dash to generate momentum before year-end. In this episode, Dan lays out a practical action plan for September outreach — how to reset your business development, stand out to brands, and build the right conversations that lead to Q4 results.

This is from Dan’s conversation with Stephen Woessner on the Sell With Authority podcast.

what you’ll learn:

• Why most agencies waste energy chasing the tiny slice of prospects “ready to buy now” — and what to do instead.
• How to build trust with brands early, before they’re even in buying mode.
• Why cold outreach often fails in today’s noisy market, and how to shift your approach.
• The real scarce resource in business development
• How to open doors with brands in a way that feels natural, not forced.

Links & Resources:

• Sell With Authority Podcast

In this episode, I sit down with Roger Nairn, CEO of JAR Podcast Solutions, to talk about how he’s grown a top-tier production agency working with brands like Amazon, Lululemon, Amex, and Cirque du Soleil.

We get into the systems, sales strategies, and creative positioning that helped him go from “no name, no business plan” to building a client list most agencies dream about.

⏱ Timestamps

00:00 – From hobbyist to first client in four days

02:35 – Why “just starting” beats overplanning every time

04:04 – Selling the business case for podcasts

05:12 – The hire that changed everything

07:29 – Building scalable systems with “the 8 P’s”

09:49 – Why this sales hire actually worked

11:46 – Outreach, targeting, and big-brand ABM

15:47 – How the playbook changed as the market matured

17:56 – Solving business challenges, not selling “a podcast”

22:59 – JAR’s client system: job, audience, results

24:49 – Knowing when to say no (and sticking to it)

28:45 – Finding and training podcast hosts

32:49 – The current sales process (and why Roger still cold outreaches)

35:23 – Inbound, RFPs, and fixing broken shows

39:21 – Pitching ideas based on brand news

42:03 – Balancing prospecting with live opportunities

45:04 – Making sales a leadership team effort

46:47 – What’s next for JAR

• Key Takeaways
  • Waiting for the “perfect” start? That mindset kills momentum.
  • Sometimes the priciest hire unlocks the biggest profit.
  • Systems don’t have to be boring—they can fuel momentum.
  • Selling the why gets easier when your market is educated.
  • Saying no to the wrong projects creates space for the right ones.
  • Outreach that’s brand-specific beats any templated campaign.

Links & Resources:

• Relationship Sales at Scale™
• Website: jarpodcasts

In this episode, I sat down with the Happy Clients Podcast to talk about what’s working in agency sales right now, without the cringe, without the outdated playbooks, and without turning you into a full-time cold caller.

Most agencies can sell for their clients all day, but when it comes to their growth, things can get messy.

I’ve spent the better part of a decade helping agencies stop relying on “hope and referrals” and start building sales systems that work.

⏱ Timestamps

00:00 – The “spare-time sales” trap

00:29 – Why this matters for client-facing pros

01:19 – My path into agency sales

02:20 – The scaling pain you don’t see coming

04:41 – When referrals run dry

06:10 – Inbound vs outbound today

07:04 – The trust-first approach

09:23 – Making referrals predictable

11:48 – Why cold outreach is harder now

14:13 – Accountability in sales

16:32 – Quick wins with clarity and focus

18:53 – Opportunities hiding in plain sight

20:10 – Where to find me + my book

✨ Key Points

• Why loading sales onto busy account managers fails.
• How to turn your network into a steady pipeline.
• The simple way to make introductions effortless.
• Why agencies should own sales instead of outsourcing it.
• How clarity on your ideal client changes everything.

🔗 Book a strategy call with Dan: Relationship Sales at Scale™

Checked the podcast on @dotandcompany

 In this episode, I sat down with Kristen Sweeney, the founder of Every Little Word — a boutique content and communications agency that’s laser-focused on helping complex B2B orgs share what they actually know in ways that actually work. 

We got into the nitty-gritty of what it means to build trust with subject matter experts, why most B2B content is fundamentally broken, and how Kristen made a huge decision to walk away from a partner that was 60% of her business.

 Timestamps

00:00 – Intro & Kristen’s background

01:03 – From Broadway to freelance writing

03:03 – Business triples during COVID

04:48 – Treating execs like peers, not titles

06:22 – Sales copy and horizontal vs vertical relationships

07:39 – Why so much outreach reads as either bragging or begging

08:09 – Creating content that matches your ICP’s level

09:47 – Executives can smell uncertainty

11:49 – Emotions in B2B aren’t optional

14:17 – Leaving a 60% revenue partnership

16:24 – Selling to enterprise life sciences

17:07 – Building trust through intros and relationships

19:33 – Owning both sides: product and sales

21:56 – The writing on the wall after 10KSB

24:45 – Kristen’s Colby profile and systems for sales
25:50 – Why process builds confidence in sales

28:07 – Trust recession and the power of a real convo

31:43 – Why life sciences felt like home

35:25 – Balancing delivery with marketing

38:18 – Doubling down on strengths with Substack
40:00 – What Kristen’s excited about next

🔑 Some Key Takeaways

Kristen Sweeney walked away from a partner driving 60% of her revenue (on purpose), “Executives can smell fear” — and Kristen shares what actually earns their respect

Links & Resources:

Website: everylittleword.co

Relationship Sales at Scale™

In this week´s episode Stewart Gandolf joins me to talk through what it actually takes to niche down, build a sustainable agency, and scale without losing your sanity or soul. Stewart’s been in the healthcare marketing game for over two decades, and his experience building Healthcare Success into one of the top firms in the space is loaded with tactical insight.

We talk about the trap of project-based work, how to structure your agency around recurring revenue, and why most agencies screw up their first few sales hires.

🕒 Timestamps & Topics

• 00:00 — How Stewart got his start and why he doubled down on healthcare
• 03:15 — Direct mail, seminars, and the early version of inbound
• 06:40 — NLP and the psychology behind language that converts
• 11:20 — What drove their early growth (hint: it wasn’t salespeople)
• 13:40 — Why project work is a trap and how to transition to retainers
• 16:00 — Right-sized clients vs. resource-sucking whales
• 18:20 — Inbound vs. outbound: nets, spears, and the bullseye metaphor
• 21:20 — Stewart’s playbook if he were starting from scratch today
• 25:00 — Authority assets: reports, seminars, and content that build trust
• 29:10 — The daisy metaphor and avoiding entrepreneurial distraction
• 31:45 — What most agencies get wrong with their first sales hire
• 37:10 — Traits of a great agency salesperson (and why most don’t have them)
• 40:00 — When to stop being your own best salesperson
• 44:15 — Strategic partnerships and the next wave of AI opportunity
• 47:45 — Final thoughts on staying relevant when the cheese moves

A few things we covered.

• Most agency salespeople fail, not because they’re bad, but because there’s no clear positioning to sell.

Links & Resources:

• 🔗 Links & Resources
• Healthcare Success — Stewart’s agency
• Relationship Sales at Scale™

This solo episode is a deep dive into the unsexy but transformative groundwork that agency owners need to lay to build a reliable new business engine. Dan breaks down what really separates enterprise-level agencies from the ones stuck in "Cobbler’s Children" limbo — not just in terms of tactics, but in mindset, strategy, people, and execution. He shares hard-won lessons from years of running Sales Schema and coaching 200+ agencies, including how to stop waiting for referrals, start building durable outbound systems, and shift from reactive selling to a process that actually compounds.

This is for the agency owner who's sick of feast-or-famine cycles and is ready to take control of their pipeline without chasing hacks or magical software.

⏱️ Timestamps

00:00 – The Rainforest vs. The Lion Hunt: A better metaphor for agency growth

02:00 – Introduction: Why solo episodes are the hardest, but the most needed

03:15 – The 4 Agency Growth Stages: Glorified Freelancer → Enterprise

06:00 – Specialization: Why it's now table stakes, not a nice-to-have

08:30 – TAM Thinking: Apply tech startup logic to your agency niche

10:00 – Why perspective is becoming table stakes

13:20 – You don't need to "go inward" for 6 months — talk to the market now

15:30 – Mindset: The difference between Cobbler’s Children and Enterprise thinking

20:00 – Why only 3% of your market is in-market right now.

24:00 – All marketing is interruption marketing — so do it ethically

26:00 – Why you probably don’t actually know your close rate (and how to fix that)

27:45 – Getting out of the sales seat: What really needs to be true before you hire a salesperson

30:30 – Your first two strategy projects: Thought leadership & net-new relationships

33:20 – The “balance beam” metaphor for doing outreach

35:00 – Using data + context to build non-spammy outbound lists

37:00 – What our best-performing campaigns look like

39:00 – Where real lead gen lives: Manual outreach to old prospects

42:00 – My exact reconnect email — word for word

44:00 – Wrapping up: Build something buyers want, but also build for your peace of mind

Key Points

• The Four Stages of Agency Growth
• → Glorified Freelancer → Cobbler’s Children → Transitional Agency → Enterprise
• Specialization is Now Table Stakes
• → It’s harder to win without it. But specialization doesn’t always mean verticalization.
• Perspective is the New Differentiator
• → Agencies that win aren’t just executing.
• 3% Rule of Market Timing
• → Only 3% of your market is actively buying.
• Manual Outreach is Still King
• → My highest ROI activity: emailing past prospects and lapsed clients.
• Getting Out of the Sales Seat Takes More Than Hiring a Salesperson
• → You need the wave. That means systems, clarity, and enough leads to support a new closer.

Links & Resources:

💼 Book a call with me

• Digital Agency Growth Podcast

Most agencies never crack eight figures. Mark Orttung helped one grow to $130M—by breaking every "safe" rule.

In this episode, we dive into what agency owners at the $1–5M mark can actually do to punch past the common growth ceilings.

The most important shift?

He stopped selling to job titles—and started selling to buyers with something to prove.

⏱ Timestamps

00:00 – Intro: Why agencies need a rethink

00:36 – Mark’s background: Accenture, startups, bill.com, Nexient

02:23 – Studying AI in the 90s: symbolic vs neural nets

04:30 – Stepping into Nexient at $39M—and losing $5M first

06:59 – Early differentiation struggles and customer perception

08:29 – Building product-style squads inside a services business

10:38 – The big leap: shifting from selling people to selling outcomes

11:08 – Simplifying the pitch: “life’s too short for crappy software”

13:12 – Saying no to revenue: the scary path to focus

14:14 – Selling without data: enterprise outbound as testing lab

16:26 – Creating their own conference as a positioning feedback loop

19:34 – Cross-industry client base: healthcare to gas utilities to tech

20:25 – Specializing by service vs vertical in today’s world

24:52 – Growth “walls”: from founder-led to decentralized structure

29:21 – Change agents: how to spot internal buyers who take risks

32:40 – The next wall at 150M and why he chose to exit

36:56 – Getting ghosted on a term sheet, then driving a bidding war

40:17 – The Project Works origin story: from spreadsheet to SaaS

42:28 – Why every services firm needs better resourcing visibility

47:29 – What’s next: proposal automation, AI, and growth tooling

48:49 – Where to find Mark and Project Works

Key Points

• Why scaling past the eight figures in a services firm requires breaking the founder bottleneck
• Why “life’s too short for crappy software” became a high-converting mission
• The opportunity of building or early adopters—not the mainstream
• How to identify and win over internal change agents in large enterprises
• How Project Works helps agencies resource smarter and prevent margin leaks
• Using conferences as real-time feedback loops for positioning
• Why now is the time to apply AI to services growth ops—especially proposals

Links & Resources:

• 🔗 Links & Resources

🔗 Book a strategy call with Dan: https://salesschema.com/work-with-us/

🎙 More episodes of the Digital Agency Growth Podcast: salesschema.com/podcast

• Project Works – https://www.projectworks.com
• Connect with Mark on LinkedIn – Mark Orttung

In this episode of the Digital Agency Growth podcast, I’m joined once again by agency advisor Karl Sakas. Karl breaks down the philosophy and practice behind his new book Calm the Chaos—a leadership guide for agency owners who want to scale smart, delegate more, and reclaim time. We also explore his writing process, the parallels between art collecting and running an agency, and how to think clearly when chaos hits your business.

⏱️ Timestamps

• 00:00 – Welcome back Karl Sakas + Intro to Calm the Chaos
• 01:09 – Why leadership is the key to scaling a lifestyle agency
• 02:22 – Karl’s writing process
• 05:30 – Blog posts vs. books: Why books matter for positioning
• 07:45 – AI’s role in writing and idea development
• 08:31 – Art collecting vs. agency leadership: Taste vs. discernment
• 13:32 – The tipping point: You can’t be the answer person forever
• 16:13 – The bottleneck around delegation and how to fix it
• 21:50 – What causes chaos in an agency?
• 24:50 – Strong pipeline = better client filtering
• 29:27 – How to delegate growth and not abdicate responsibility
• 34:48 – Should you build demand gen internally or hire it out?
• 37:21 – The M&A market and how to think about valuation and exit
• 41:51 – The real drivers behind agency exits: Age, tuition, and burnout

🔗 Book a strategy call with Dan: https://salesschema.com/work-with-us/

🎙 More episodes of the Digital Agency Growth Podcast: salesschema.com/podcast

🎁 Get a free chapter of Karl’s book: bit.ly/karl-dag

Today, I talk to Todd Gagne—tech founder, startup mentor, and the guy who accidentally dropped a viral bomb on Substack after a weekend rabbit hole about GLP-1 drugs. We talk about why these weight-loss medications might be as transformative as the air conditioner, what this means for advertising, and why the next few years could upend how we think about consumer behavior, even in B2B.

⏱️ Timestamps

[00:00] – Todd’s background and startup school origins

[01:20] – How a Substack detour into GLP-1 changed everything

[03:33] – What GLP-1 drugs do, how they work, and why they matter

[05:28] – The "air conditioner moment" analogy and downstream societal effects

[07:14] – Grocery, alcohol, and aviation: second-order impacts

[10:04] – What fills the lifestyle gap?

[11:46] – The hidden threat to advertising: fewer impulses, fewer clicks

[13:52] – Are your most impulsive ad converters vanishing?

[15:15] – Even B2B isn’t safe from this shift

[17:22] – Safety data, supply constraints, and the future scale of adoption

[19:25] – Could insurance companies lead the charge on GLP-1 coverage?

[21:15] – Could 50% of ad strategies go obsolete?

[22:23] – Where to follow Todd and dig deeper

📢 Key Topics:

• GLP-1’s societal and psychological impact
• Why this isn’t just about weight loss—it’s about impulse control
• Second- and third-order effects on brands, industries, and culture
• How marketing strategies may need to evolve in a post-GLP-1 world

Links & Resources:

Visit: https://salesschema.com/work-with-us/

🔗 Learn more about Todd→ https://wildfirelabs.io/

Join Dan Englander and Jared Gibson, co-founder of Outworks, as they dive into the future of B2B marketing and explain why personal branding is the most powerful growth engine for CEOs and founders.

Discover why cold outreach is no longer enough, how authentic LinkedIn content can drive long-term trust and authority, and how busy executives can make content creation part of their routine. Jared also shares hands-on tactics for leveraging video and interviews, working smarter with teams, and setting realistic goals for lead generation through personal brands.

Timestamps

00:00 – Intro & welcoming Jared 
01:51 – Jared’s background & launching Outworks 
06:43 – Why traditional outbound no longer works 
12:46 – How content & algorithms have changed on LinkedIn 
18:51 – The importance of knowing your Total Addressable Market 
23:35 – Making content creation a lifestyle 
29:49 – What ROI looks like on LinkedIn 
33:50 – Getting clients comfortable on video 
35:21 – Using client interviews for content 
37:21 – Jared’s partner program and new service launchTags

Links & Resources:

Visit: https://salesschema.com

🔗 Learn more about Jared→ https://www.outworks.io/

In this solo episode, Dan shares an evolved perspective on outbound strategies for boutique agency owners. Reflecting on lessons from the "Right Words to the Right People" workshop and client campaigns since, this episode offers a practical, human-centered approach to outbound that respects your time and builds real pipeline—without sacrificing trust or burning bridges.

⏱️ Time-Stamped Breakdown

00:00 – Why outbound often fails for boutique agencies
02:20 – Why small wins in copy drive big results
04:39 – The unique control and feedback loop outbound provides
06:57 – Why most agency outbound tactics are broken from the jump
09:21 – Enter the "trust recession" and how to sell like a human, not a marketer
11:39 – How to define ideal client profiles (ICPs) the right way
14:01 – The six key ingredients of effective outbound copy

14:10 – Tribe-based kinship

15:12 – Deep understanding and insider language

16:21 – Show, don’t tell authority cues

18:38 – Timeliness and aligning with the calendar

21:01 – Pattern interrupts that keep it horizontal, not hokey

22:32 – De-risking the ask and giving people an easy yes
23:20 – How to scale relevance without fake personalization
25:43 – Outbound channels: why simpler may be smarter
28:04 – Systems thinking: time blocking, trust, and the ops question
30:21 – The real definition of “sales work” (hint: it’s not just calls)
32:43 – Supporting your new business person (or yourself) to succeed

🔑 Key Takeaways

• Stop chasing MQLs, start building trust. Reframe outbound as a relationship-building engine.
• Nail your ICPs. Think in cocktail-party terms: how would your ideal client introduce themselves?
• Leverage the six trust-building ingredients in every campaign for relevance, resonance, and results.
• Outbound isn’t about spray and pray—it's about proactive control. Test fast, learn faster, and grow smarter.
• Build for sustainability. Your system should run even when you’re swamped with client work.

📌 Mentioned Resources

• saleschema.com – Request a consultation and learn how to implement this system 

Are your agency's services stuck in a tangle of complexity and custom work? In this episode, Dan Englander sits down with Chris DuBois—founder of Dynamic Agency OS and creator of the Snap Offer framework—to explore how agencies can simplify their offers, build authority, and grow through repetition, not reinvention.

Chris shares how he went from infantry officer to agency CEO and ultimately to coach, helping firms move away from scattered messaging and toward a productized, high-trust, high-clarity model. You’ll learn how to evaluate your market positioning, why most agencies document broken systems too early, and how to create offers that cut through the noise.

If you're a boutique agency looking to reduce churn, build repeatable value, and earn more without more complexity—this one's for you.

🔑 Topics covered:

• The one-problem, one-solution model
• The PRISM framework for evaluating a market
• Why clarity is a sales multiplier
• The Snap Offer system (and why it outperforms lead magnets)
• Why the real bottleneck is attention—not operations

Links & Resources:

• 🔗 Learn more about Chris → https://dynamicagencyos.com/
• Visit: https://salesschema.com

How do you grow a digital agency without getting stuck in feast-or-famine cycles or boxed in by a single niche?

In this episode of The Digital Agency Growth Podcast, Dan Englander sits down with Erik J. Olson, CEO of Proxa and the force behind three specialized agencies under one umbrella. Erik walks us through his unconventional journey from civil engineering to coding in bookstores to building a portfolio of agencies with one goal: a $100M private equity exit.

You’ll learn:

• Why Erik spun off agencies instead of pivoting one
• How to identify “hall of fame” clients without over-complicating the data
• What it really takes to hire (and keep) a performing salesperson
• How AI is standardizing  execution and what agency leaders should focus on instead
• Why niching isn’t risky, avoiding it is

We also dig into Erik’s sales frameworks, lessons from failed hires, and what it means to evolve from entrepreneur to operator.

Learn more about The Digitial Agency Growth Podcast at https://www.salesschema.com/podcast/ and our Video training at http://salesschema.com/takecharge 

CONNECT WITH ERIK J. OLSON:

LinkedIn

Array Digital

Rival Digital

Crush Digital

CONNECT WITH DAN ENGLANDER:

LinkedIn

Sales Schema

What separates the agencies that consistently get referrals from those that don’t? According to Audrey Kwan, it comes down to trust equity.

In this conversation, Dan Englander talks with Audrey consultant, community builder, and founder of Agency Together about how agencies can get off the feast-or-famine sales rollercoaster by building strategic partnerships, clarifying their niche, and focusing on relationships that compound over time.

Topics covered:

• Why “referral-ready” relationships are built on consistency, not chance
• The ROI of niching for insight, credibility, and collaboration
• How small agencies can thrive without growing headcount
• What’s extending sales cycles and how trust shortens them
• “Growth projects” that drive visibility and long-term differentiation
• Why clarity beats diversification, and how to evaluate your niche strategy with SWOT + PESTLE

Audrey also shares her “Trust Equity Scorecard,” a free tool that helps agency leaders assess how well-positioned they are to grow through relationships.

🔗 Get the scorecard: agencytogether.com/scorecard

🎧 Subscribe to The Digital Agency Growth Podcast for more conversations like this, where we cut through gimmicks and focus on what actually drives growth in complex-service businesses.

Learn more about The Digitial Agency Growth Podcast at https://www.salesschema.com/podcast/ and our Video training at http://salesschema.com/takecharge 

CONNECT WITH AUDREY KWAN:

LinkedIn

Agency Together

Audrey Joy Kwan

CONNECT WITH DAN ENGLANDER:

LinkedIn

Sales Schema

In this episode, Dan Englander welcomes back Nick Petroski of Promethean Research for a high-signal, data-backed deep dive into the state of the digital agency industry in 2025. From agency size trends to the truth about AI integration, Nick reveals what the numbers really say.

Watch our latest video training, How to Take Charge of Your Agency’s Future Revenue. During this training, you’ll learn how we get qualified appointments every week using tasteful and highly targeted email outreach.

They cover:

• Why sub-10-person agencies are disappearing
• The true impact (and limits) of AI in agency operations
• What’s driving the contractor surge—and what it means for margins
• Why specialization isn’t optional anymore (and how to actually do it right)
• How GLP-1 drugs like Ozempic could disrupt agency-adjacent markets
• What top-performing agencies are doing differently

If you're an agency founder navigating a changing market, this episode is your strategic cheat sheet.

Thank you for listening! If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to follow, rate and review the podcast and tell me your key takeaways!

Learn more about The Digitial Agency Growth Podcast at https://www.salesschema.com/podcast/ and our Video training at http://salesschema.com/takecharge 

CONNECT WITH NICK PETROSKI:

LinkedIn

Promethean Research

Download Nick’s latest research report here: prometheanresearch.com

CONNECT WITH DAN ENGLANDER:

LinkedIn

Sales Schema

What do you do when referrals dry up and the market gets shaky?

In this solo episode, Dan Englander breaks down the key takeaways from his recent workshop: Implementing a Business Development System That Stands Up to Uncertainty.

You’ll learn:

• Why reactive sales keeps you stuck in volatility
• How to shift to a proactive system that builds momentum
• The 3 mindset shifts every agency needs for consistent growth
• A practical KPI framework to build sales habits (not just reports)
• How to define your ICPs without overcomplicating things
• A smarter way to run referral campaigns—no awkward asks

This episode is packed with timeless strategies, no fluff—just actionable systems for growing your agency in unpredictable times.

Want the complete Workshop?  
including tools and slides.  Go here

We're bringing back one of our most valuable episodes  a conversation that’s just as relevant today as when it first aired. 

The agency world has seen plenty of change in recent years. But with that change comes opportunity — for evolution, adaptation, and leadership. In this episode, Drew McLellan joins us to talk about the current state of the agency landscape in 2024, the importance of thought leadership, and how to build real trust with clients long before the sale.

Watch our latest video training, How to Take Charge of Your Agency’s Future Revenue. During this training, you’ll learn how we get qualified appointments every week using tasteful and highly targeted email outreach.

In this episode, Dan and Drew discuss:

• Why trust starts long before the sales conversation
• What it really takes to grow your agency sustainably
• How to position your agency as a true thought leader
• Where AI adds value (and where it doesn’t)

Drew McLellan has worked in advertising for over 30 years. He runs McLellan Marketing Group and Agency Management Institute (AMI), where he helps thousands of small and mid-sized agencies grow smarter and stronger every year.

Whether you missed this episode the first time or just need a refresher, we’re excited to bring it back. If you enjoy it, don’t forget to follow, rate, and review the podcast  and share your biggest takeaway with us. 

Learn more about The Digitial Agency Growth Podcast at https://www.salesschema.com/podcast/ and our Video training at http://salesschema.com/takecharge 

CONNECT WITH DREW MCLELLAN:

Agency Management Institute

LinkedIn

X (formerly Twitter)

Website

CONNECT WITH DAN ENGLANDER:

LinkedIn

Sales Schema

In a world of economic uncertainty, shrinking budgets, and longer sales cycles, how do smart agencies continue to grow? 

Jon Tsourakis, Co-Founder of Oyova, reveals how embracing discomfort, staying authentic, and focusing on fundamentals can transform your agency’s performance even in the hardest times. 

Watch our latest video training, How to Take Charge of Your Agency’s Future Revenue. During this training, you’ll learn how we get qualified appointments every week using tasteful and highly targeted email outreach.

In this episode of The Digital Agency Growth Podcast, Jon Tsourakis breaks down how agencies can stay competitive by embracing adaptability, simplifying operations, and focusing on what truly drives growth in uncertain times. He shares actionable insights on refining your service offering, building stronger client relationships, and creating a resilient agency model that thrives despite market challenges.

Tune in to learn:

• Why resisting comfort is key to success
• How to adapt your biz dev strategy when outbound stops working
• The balance between automation and human connection
• Lessons from rejection and how to stay in "performance mode"

Whether you're battling slow sales or looking to future-proof your agency, this conversation is packed with actionable insights.

CONNECT WITH JON TSOURAKIS

LinkedIn

OYOVA

CONNECT WITH DAN ENGLANDER:

LinkedIn

Sales Schema

Are retainers the future of agency growth?

In this episode, David Brecount — CEO and co-founder of US Digital Partners — returns to share how his agency survived and thrived over 23 years by doing the opposite of what most agencies chase: consistency over chaos, long-term strategy over shiny tactics, and relationships over quick wins.

Watch our latest video training, How to Take Charge of Your Agency’s Future Revenue. During this training, you’ll learn how we get qualified appointments every week using tasteful and highly targeted email outreach.

We talk about how he shifted from project-based work to recurring revenue, what clients actually want in today’s skeptical market, and how his team is doubling down on being human in a noisy, AI-dominated landscape.

Whether you're an agency founder or a sales leader selling complex services, this is a blueprint for sustainable growth.

 🔍 What we cover in this episode:
– Why they transitioned from projects to retainers
– How to sell strategy (not just deliverables)
– Navigating economic uncertainty without panicking
– The “physical therapy” mindset behind real marketing
– Why pricing transparency ≠ trust
– AI hype vs. human creativity
– And… why they ditched open office culture for private spaces 

Thank you for listening! If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to follow, rate and review the podcast and tell me your key takeaways!

CONNECT WITH DAVID BRECOUNT

LinkedIn

US DIGITAL PARTNERS

CONNECT WITH DAN ENGLANDER:

LinkedIn

Sales Schema

In this special episode of The Digital Agency Growth Podcast, we’re featuring Dan Englander's recent guest appearance on the Revenue Rehab podcast with Brandi Starr.

Watch our latest video training, How to Take Charge of Your Agency’s Future Revenue. During this training, you’ll learn how we get qualified appointments every week using tasteful and highly targeted email outreach.

Dan, founder of Sales Schema and host of this show, dives into the challenges agencies face in today’s low-trust, high-noise landscape. He and Brandi explore why traditional outbound strategies are breaking down, how to rethink your sales approach to win trust faster, and how to build systems that scale without losing the human touch.

This conversation is packed with real examples, strategic frameworks, and practical advice to help agency leaders sell complex services more effectively in 2025 and beyond.

In This Episode, You’ll Learn:

• Why response rates are dropping—and how to adapt your strategy
• How to identify “relationship triggers” and use them to book more meetings
• The downside of over-automation and what to do instead
• How agencies can de-risk outreach in low-trust environments
• The key roles your team needs to scale personalized outreach

Thank you for listening! If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to follow, rate and review the podcast and tell me your key takeaways!

Learn more about The Digitial Agency Growth Podcast at https://www.salesschema.com/podcast/ and our Video training at http://salesschema.com/takecharge 

CONNECT WITH BRANDI STARR:

LinkedIn

Tegrita

Revenue Rehab 

CONNECT WITH DAN ENGLANDER:

LinkedIn

Sales Schema