Natural wine culture, by Aaron Ayscough. Reporting from Paris since 2010. Roughly a third of this podcast is available for free. For access to the other episodes - and to heaps of wine interviews, profiles, translations, commentary, and more - subscribe to
I don't understand, but I respect people that can sit and drink Coche-Dury in their left hand, and Axel Prüfer in their right hand. I can understand why they still find [the former wine] interesting, but for me it was something that I'd let go of completely. I couldn't have moved to only working with natural wine without letting go of that other part. - Mads Kleppe
Mads Kleppe is the gravel-voiced Norwegian sommelier responsible for radicalizing the natural wine program at renowned Copenhagen restaurant Noma throughout the 2010s. Upon taking over in 2009 from earlier sommelier Pontus Eloffson (who had already begun emphasizing biodynamic and natural wines), Kleppe soon began championing the entirely unsulfited and unfiltered work of winemakers including Franz Strohmeier, Laureanno Serres, Anthony Tortul, Christian Tschida, Tom Lubbe, and Axel Prüfer. Arguably more than anyone else in Noma’s wine lineage, Kleppe is responsible for what in natural wine circles is often referred to as “the Noma effect”: the phenomenon by which the famous restaurant’s imprimatur encouraged an unprecedented acceptance of - and enthusiasm for - natural wines previously deemed controversial among high-end restaurant buyers and clients alike.
Kleppe initially followed a classical sommelier career path, working at Oslo Michelin-two-starred restaurant Bagatelle, while participating actively in sommelier competitions. He cites early encounters with Mâconnais vigneron Julien Guillot and then-burgeoning Etna star Frank Cornelissen (both in 2003) with sparking his initial interest in natural wine; upon moving to Copenhagen to work at Noma in 2009, he pursued the subject alongside peers in the Danish wine scene of the era, including Sune Rosforth and Anders Frederik Steen. Throughout his career at Noma, Kleppe made a habit of traveling to visit winemakers on his days off.
Since leaving Noma in 2022, Kleppe has relocated to Tbilisi, where earlier this year he began work as the beverage director for Temur Ugulava’s vast Adjara restaurant group, which encompasses dozens of hotels, restaurants, and nightclubs, in addition to its Tbilisi flagship, the five-star Stamba Hotel. I first met Kleppe in Copenhagen in 2021, when a chance meeting at Den Vandrette led to an unforgettable two-day bicycle tour of many of the Danish capital’s finest natural wine spots. I also owe to Kleppe two sublime visits to Noma before the end of his tenure there. We recorded this episode in mid-May in the private dining room of Copenhagen restaurant Barr, which inhabits the dockside building that previously housed Noma. Check out the episode for Kleppe’s recollections of serving natural wine to U2; his favorite Georgian hangover cures; and why, within his peculiar synesthetic approach to wine mnemonics, “soup” is a color.
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Winemaker in English is a stupid word, because I don’t see myself as a maker of anything. I mean, we pick the grapes, we press them, we leave them to macerate; of course we do things. So we make stuff. But the wine? If you see the period of time where we actually work the grapes… Let’s say we work the grapes for six or seven weeks. Then it’s in barrel for four or five years. - Anders Frederik Steen
Anders Frederik Steen is a Danish vigneron-négociant based with his wife and collaborator Anne Bruun Blauert in the southern Ardèche village of Valvignières, where the couple established a winemaking practice throughout the 2010s with the aid of Ardèche natural wine progenitors Gérald and Jocelyne Oustric of Domaine du Mazel. Today the couple farm almost 6ha of viognier, sauvignon, grenache blanc, grenache noir, portan, syrah, and serine, supplementing it with an almost equal volume of grape purchases from Domaine du Mazel and from Alsace vigneron Stéphane Bannwarth. In 2021, Barcelona-based interiors magazine Apartamento published a very lightly-edited volume compiling seven years of Steen’s tasting observations and notes-to-self, entitled Poetry is Growing in Our Garden.
Steen’s charmed career in natural wine began in 2007, when he worked at Noma under pathbreaking Swedish natural wine sommelier Pontus Eloffson (and alongside another Swedish sommelier Ulf Ringus, now a partner in Sweden natural wine importer Vin & Natur). Steen left two years later to partner in influential Copenhagen restaurants Relae and , a time when he also began importing natural wine to Denmark. His winemaking practice began in 2013, in what was initially envisioned as an ongoing collaboration with the influential radical natural winemaker , who at that time had recently left France for Japan. Their partnership lasted three years, by which time Steen had already begun to base himself in Ardèche, drawn by the sense of community and camaraderie surrounding the Oustrics at Domaine du Mazel. Steen and Blauert began farming their own parcels in 2017; today the couple live with their two children in center of Valvignières, where they are in the midst of renovating their own cellar after several years vinifying at Domaine du Mazel.
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Ep. 4: Pierre Jancou
mardi 3 octobre 2023 • Durée 53:20
It was fantastic to sell natural wines to the crowd in Paris, because it is so international. You have so many people from all over the world… I think my role at the time was to pass on the natural wine love to many people, many young people and many older people. - Pierre Jancou
An epoch-defining figure in Paris natural wine circles and natural wine at large, Pierre Jancou is the prolific, media-savvy restaurateur responsible for a slew of the French capital’s iconic natural wine destinations of the 2000s and 2010s. Taken together, Jancou’s series of bistrots and caves-à-manger represent nothing short of an influential artistic oeuvre: their patinated, hand-wrought aesthetic and frank service style is nowadays perceptible in fine natural wine spots around the world.
Jancou began his career as a restaurateur in 1991, opening the Italian restaurant La Boca near Etienne Marcel. His embrace of natural wine came just over a decade later, shortly after his 2001 opening of La Crèmerie, the tiny, enchanting 6th arrondissement wine shop that would become a touchstone for the cave-à-manger genre. In 2007, Jancou opened Racines, inaugurating his most influential period, when he offered what may have been the world’s first radical zero-zero natural wine program. Jancou followed this success with Vivant (2011), Vivant Table (2012), Heimat (2015), and Achille (2016), before conflicts with neighbors at this final address spurred him to leave Paris behind. He relocated to the Alpine village of Chatillon-en-Diois, where he ran the from 2018-2020.
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Ep. 2: Kevin Blackwell
jeudi 27 juillet 2023 • Durée 54:08
My place was really laid-back, really laissez-faire. The idea was freedom of thought, movement. Also, people were talking about wine at the time. Whereas now it’s like, you go to a wine bar, and nobody talks about wine. - Kevin Blackwell
Originally from Mountain View, California, Kevin Blackwell moved to Paris in 1996, and quickly fell in with the city’s natural wine aficionados, despite possessing no formal background in wine. He opened a cyber café in 2000, only for it to founder in the wake of 9/11 (and the subsequent drop in Paris tourism). Given Blackwell’s nascent love for natural wine, it was, he says, a “natural transition” to transform his erstwhile cyber café into the eccentric, homespun bistrot Autour d’Un Verre in 2003.
A self-taught cook and self-taught restaurateur, Blackwell’s no-frills approach embodied the anti-establishment ethos of natural wine in the early 2000s. Visitors to Autour d’Un Verre were typically welcomed by his dog or his cat. His bistrot was also known for its shrimp toast and its lively semi-annual wine tastings, which reliably drew the leading lights of the Roussillon natural wine scene, along with friends like Nicolas Carmarans and Axel Prüfer.
Check out the episode to find out why it’s useful to have a cat in a restaurant; why he only ever spoke French in his bistrot; and why Blackwell is “Mr. Southern Carbo.”
My November 2010 blog post on Autour d’Un Verre.My December 2010 blog post on a natural wine tasting at .
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Ep. 1: Michel Moulherat
jeudi 27 juillet 2023 • Durée 52:47
“I like the idea that people were brave enough to say ‘Let’s try [to make wines with zero sulfite addition]. We’ll lose wine, into vinegar, or we’ll dump it in the gutter.' But they still tried hard to learn and pass on their knowledge. To say, we made it: no sulfites from A to Z, and it works. - Michel Moulherat
Now largely retired and living in the Touraine town of Loches, Michel Moulherat saw prominence among the second generation of natural wine advocates in Paris, starting in the mid-nineties at his 15th arrondissement bar L’Insolite (1995-2000), and continuing into the second decade of the new millennium at his 11th arrondissement wine shop La Cave de l’Insolite (2002-2011).
While he was among the early supporters of radical vignerons like Rémi Poujol, Catherine and Gilles Vergé, and Jérôme Saurigny, Moulherat professes no personal insistence on zero sulfitage. His own classical wine background is extensive, beginning with two years working for Stephen Spurrier at Les Caves de la Madeleine. Moulherat then spent three years working for two prominent expat restaurateurs, Tim Johnston (of Juveniles) and Mark Williamson (of Willi’s Wine Bar). He spent the first half of the 1990s working as a sommelier at the Michelin-starred restaurant of Hôtel de Crillon, before opening L’Insolite in 1995.
Check out the episode to learn what sorts of insects he occasionally found in early natural wine bottles; where he’s been drinking 1959 Vin Jaune lately; and why he signed the open letter circulated in defense of scandal-plagued Sancerre vigneron .
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Ep. 24: Sune Rosforth of Rosforth & Rosforth
jeudi 2 mai 2024 • Durée 31:59
There's a lot of interest for wine in Denmark. Since we haven't really been a wine producing country, [people are] eager to really go deeply down into what wine is. - Sune Rosforth
Sune Rosforth is the head of influential Denmark wine importer Rosforth & Rosforth, which he founded in 1994, initially concentrating on wines from the Loire valley. Half-Parisian on his mother’s side, he hitchhiked around France as a young man and struck up what became a lifelong friendship while working for the family behind Anjou estate Château de Passavant. Cellar visits Rosforth conducted in the region alongside Passavant’s François David would form the nucleus of his initial portfolio, which also notably included the celebrated Saumur-Champigny wines of Clos Rougeard.
Since the early 2000s, Rosforth has expanded his company’s portfolio to include many key natural wine estates in Catalonia, Italy, Chile, Georgia, and beyond. In 2012, spurred by conversations with Olivier Cousin, he began conducting regular shipments of wine from Brittany to Denmark via sailboat. To a large degree, Rosforth’s free-thinking work as an importer (and later, as a restaurateur in his own right) has accompanied - and helped shape - Copenhagen’s emergence as arguably the world’s premier nexus for natural wine and forward-thinking dining. Today, both Rosforth’s office-slash-dining-room-slash-wine-bar-and-wine-wholesaler site beneath Knippelsbro (colloquially known as “Under the Bridge”) and Den Vandrette, the nearby wine bar run by his wife Veronica, represent a spontaneous, informal, and thoroughly vital contrast to the city’s renowned fine dining scene.
I first met Rosforth in 2020 over lunch at the home of Gard vigneron Alain Allier. Later we were reintroduced in Copenhagen by then-Noma-sommelier , and I’ve since had several occasion in that city to enjoy Rosforth and Kleppe’s supreme hospitality. (This includes Rosforth’s own thoughtful and daring cooking at the office, where he whips up, with little advance warning, dishes like shrimp in tomato-shrimp broth, or sautéed sheep testicles.) We recorded this episode in October 2023 in the (or Culture Tower) overlooking Knippels Bridge, a site chosen more for its sublime view than its amenability to sound recording. Take a listen for Rosforth’s take on the future of Clos Rougeard; his memories of Catalonian vigneron before the latter began making wine; and his heartfelt apology for the intensity of his fellow Danes in Copenhagen bike lanes.
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Ep. 23: Mathieu Lapierre of Domaine Lapierre
vendredi 5 avril 2024 • Durée 33:07
I was thinking of when I was really young, five to ten years old, at primary school, [of posters that were] just to explain to us the cycle of a tree, or a flower... I wanted to take that kind of academic way of presentation to explain carbonic maceration to people. - Mathieu Lapierre
Mathieu Lapierre is the co-manager, along with his sister Camille, of famed Morgon estate Domaine Marcel Lapierre, which he has overseen since the passing of his father in 2010. Initially a chef by training, Mathieu Lapierre joined the family estate in 2004 after viticultural studies in Beaune. Few who have met him in his two decades at the estate fail to remark the breadth of his interests, which also include the piano, archaeology, and Legos.
The occasion for our chat in early January was the completion of a pet project he first mentioned to me several years ago: an educational poster about the process of carbonic maceration. I may just be the target audience for this sort of thing, but I suspect Lapierre’s finished poster has an impressive potential to improve the global wine conversation, which remains rife with inaccuracies and mistaken impressions where it concerns carbonic maceration.
It is a situation that persists simply because questions about carbonic maceration most often arise in wine shops, wine bars, and restaurants, where informed staff are often too hurried to effectively explain the process. In such a way, Lapierre’s new poster is an inspired marriage between message and medium: it offers, in the form of a handsome poster illustrated with watercolors by French cartoonist GAB, information that is helpful on the wall of a wine establishment. Check out the podcast for a history of carbonic maceration; the sociopolitical values embedded in its practice; and the link between carbonic maceration and aged meat.
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Ep. 19: Stephana Nicolescou of Domaine Andrea Calek
mercredi 20 mars 2024 • Durée 33:43
Despite the fact that I was in art before, I don’t perceive tending vines and making wine as art. And therefore I myself don’t feel comfortable excusing my prices because it’s a special little artsy thing... It’s not what I’ve been learning for the last fifteen years. - Stephana Nicolescou
Half-French, half-Romanian, and raised in Chicago, Stephana Nicolescou is a well-traveled natural wine jack-of-all-trades who, since 2017, has been helping run the 5ha Ardèche estate of her companion, renowned Czech vigneron Andrea Calek. In 2019 and 2020, she also produced négociant micro-cuvées of her own as Une Strop, an Ardèche cinsault and a Loir-et-Cher cabernet franc, respectively. In addition to her winemaking activities, she is an avid scuba diver and amateur pilot, and routinely organizes a natural wine stand at the Django Reinhardt Jazz Festival in Fontainebleau.
Nicolescou left the USA to attend art school in Paris at age eighteen. Her introduction to natural wine came a few years later, after dropping out, when she managed the popular 1st-arrondissement natural wine bar Le Garde Robe. She left the position in 2011 to embrace wine production, first working in Andalucia for Bodega Cauzon, and later for Clos Roche Blanche and Michel Augé of Les Maisons Brûlées. She moved to Ardèche in 2014 with her then-companion Samuel Boulay, who had taken up the vineyards of retiring Ardèche natural wine pioneer . When that relationship ended, she returned to Spain, where she worked for , before returning to Ardèche at the end of 2016 to work for Andrea Calek
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Ep. 15: Hannah Fuellenkemper of Abracadabra
mercredi 24 janvier 2024 • Durée 48:57
In Auvergne, the winemakers are very independent. I don't know if it's the Auvergne that makes you like this or if it's the people. Because not a lot of the winemakers in the Auvergne are actually from the Auvergne. They come from somewhere else and I think maybe they come to a place like this because they like to be alone. - Hannah Fuellenkemper
There are, I often say, two ways to fall in love with natural wine, not mutually exclusive. One is to learn about it, taste widely, and begin buying it in favor of all other sorts of wine. The other is to find yourself rearranging your whole life so as to be able to make your own natural wine. Hannah Fuellenkemper, a peripatetic American natural wine négociant now finally somewhat settled in the Auvergne, is a poster-woman for this latter way of falling in love with natural wine.
Born in Germany, raised between the USA and England, Fuellenkemper obtained a law degree in Amsterdam before discovering an interest in natural wine at the city’s wine bars. She followed her muse to wine salons in France and a revelatory experience harvesting with the Cousin family in Anjou in 2017. She interned for Manuel di Vecchi Staraz at Vinyer de la Ruca in Banyuls before moving her base to the Ardèche, where for several seasons she worked on and off for the regions’ natural vignerons, including Sylvain Bock and Andrea Calek / Stephana Nicolescu. In 2019 she did a season of work in the Loire for François Saint-Lô; the same year, she began making a small quantity of her own négociant wine.
Following a series of precarious and improvised cellar situations around Auvergne, Fuellenkemper at last established a stable cellar rental this year near the town of Brioudes. In 2023 she produced an impressive 10’000 bottles of her radically handmade natural négociant wines, sourced chiefly from the south of France, and recognizable by the paint spatters they bear in lieu of front labels. Fuellenkemper and I met in 2018 and soon began exchanging wine tips, crash pads, and winemaking labor in the course of our travels around France. I caught up with her in December 2023 as she headed home to America for the holidays. Check out the episode for Fuellenkemper’s memories of sleeping in a cave in Berrie; her list of emergency kit survival items for rural French life; and her experiences with Tinder in Auvergne.
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Ep. 14: Katie Worobeck of Maison Maenad
mercredi 24 janvier 2024 • Durée 50:26
When my two-year visa was over, I asked the Ganevats to help me with a working visa... During that time, I did receive some job offers in Canada. But there was still nothing that was as exciting as the wines we were making in the Jura. And I [figured] I would rather be a little vineyard donkey doing whatever at [Domaine] Ganevat than be the head honcho somewhere making wines that I don’t really believe in. - Katie Worobeck
Katie Worobeck is a Canadian vigneronne (and fellow Substack writer!) based in the village of Orbagna in the Sud Revermont, where since 2022 she farms a 3ha vineyard boasting all five classic Jura varieties in nearby Saint-Laurent-La-Roche. Her French winemaking debut came earlier, in 2019, during her four-year tenure working for Jura natural wine legend Jean-François Ganevat.
Worobeck’s career in wine traces its roots to 2011, when she decided to take a break after obtaining a Master’s degree in International Political Economy at the University of Toronto to take a trip WOOFFing throughout France, Italy, Croatia, and Turkey. Upon her return to Canada, she worked in restaurants in Ottawa, where an eccentric local farmer encouraged her interest in farming, and a benevolent employer offered to pay for WSET courses. Worobeck followed her burgeoning interest in wine to work at Norman Hardie Winery in Ontario, where fellow cellar hand (and future Ibiza natural wine importer) Cassady Sniatowsky and Montreal wine maven Vanya Filipovic helped spark Worobeck’s interest in natural winemaking. She worked harvest at Bouchard Finlayson in South Africa in 2015, before setting her sights on France, where she arrived to intern at Domaine Ganevat in 2017.
I met Worobeck at a party at German Burgundy négociant winemaker Bastian Wolber’s house in 2021. In the years since I’ve had innumerable occasions to be thankful for her friendship and support, whether during visits to the Jura, or at natural wine salons throughout France, or on panel discussions during trips abroad. I joined Worobeck at her home one early evening this past November to chat about living in Jean-François Ganevat’s mother’s apartment; Worobeck’s early winemaking experiences in Prince Edward County; and the time she accidentally attended a Latin dance class in the Jura.
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Although we’ve traveled in similar orbits for many years, it wasn’t until harvest time at Domaine du Mazel 2019 that I first encountered Steen outside of the context of a natural wine salon. And it wasn’t until January of this year that we finally found an occasion to chat and taste some wines together, on an unseasonably spring-like morning before the Montpellier salons. Check out the episode for Steen’s peculiar writing process (it involves text messages); which winemaking techniques he learned from Jean-Marc Brignot; and his dastardly scheme to ensure the couple’s wines take up as much layout space as possible on restaurant wine lists.
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In 2022, Jancou relocated once again, this time to the remote Aude village of Padern, home also to renowned natural vigneron Fabrice Monnin of La Mazière. Today Jancou runs the local Café des Sports as a seasonal natural wine bistrot, and is establishing a small winemaking practice, farming 1.5ha of carignan, marsanne, and macabeu in the surrounding jagged limestone hillscape. Check out the episode for the lowdown on Jancou’s first wine; his thoughts on Instagram; and his secret to quitting hard drugs.
Pierre Jancou’s Café des Sports in Padern will reopen for Autumn 2023 on October 20th, offering lunch service Fridays-Mondays until Christmas.
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An October 2010 blog post I wrote about Moulherat and La Cave de l’Insolite.A May 2015 blog post I wrote about Moulherat and La Poudrière, the Issy-lès-Moulineaux bistrot where he was then working.
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I first met Nicolescou shortly after arriving to Paris in 2009, when I worked in central Paris and frequented apéro hours at Le Garde Robe. I lost track of her when she left for Spain, only to re-encounter her in 2018, when I arrived for a tasting appointment with Calek and was surprised to see another familiar face. Nowadays I make a stop at the couple’s handsome bioclimatic abode whenever I’m in the region, most recently before the Montpellier salons in late January, when we recorded this podcast. Check it out for Nicolescou’s plans for her own winemaking; her perspective on the Chicago natural wine scene; and how she intends to survive a zombie apocalypse in Ardèche.
This is a free episode of the NOT DRINKING POISON podcast. For access to all episodes - plus years of natural wine profiles, reports, and interviews - please subscribe!
This is a free episode of the NOT DRINKING POISON podcast. For access to all the episodes - plus years of vigneron interviews, profiles, tasting reports, and commentary - please subscribe!
This is a free episode of the NOT DRINKING POISON podcast. For access to all the episodes - plus years of vigneron interviews, profiles, tasting reports, and commentary - please subscribe!
