Lead & Follow – Détails, épisodes et analyse

Send Fan Mail by Text!

Dr. Ron Riggio has a uniquely broad and deep perspective on the evolution of followership research over the past two decades. He is the Henry R. Kravis Professor of Leadership and Organizational Psychology and former Director of the Kravis Leadership Institute at Claremont McKenna College, where the very first followership conference took place back in 2006.

In this episode, Ron shares his thoughts on where the followership community has been and where it is going, as well as his own current work to expand the research on followership and its relationship to leadership. Learn about his current work and collaborations including the anatomy of followership, implicit peer theory, storytelling methodologies, and more.

• “When we put the term leader on something in our western culture, we sort of raise it up and kind of put it on a pedestal, and that leads to the follower being downgraded, and we need to change that.”
• “The traditional way is to say well the leader does something… and the followers perform, and we’re saying it doesn’t really work like that… it’s a collaboration.”
• “By focusing on follower identity and the role of followers, people don’t default to ‘the leader knows best.’” 
• “If I’m looking at my co-follower, and saying, this is my ideal co-follower, there may be some clues in their for what ideal follower behavior looks like.”

 
Episode References

Claremont McKenna College
https://www.cmc.edu

Art of Followership, by Ronald E. Riggio, Ira Chaleff, & Jean Lipman-Blumen (Eds.)
https://www.amazon.com/Art-Followership-Followers-Leaders-Organizations/dp/0787996653

Global Followership Conference
http://www.followershipconference.com 

Liu, Z., Riggio, R.E., Reichard, R.J., & Walker, D.O. (2022). Everyday leadership: The construct, its validation, and developmental antecedents. International Leadership Journal, 14(1), 3-35.

Beenen, G., Todorova, G., Pichler, S. & Riggio, R.E. (2022). Reconceptualizing multilevel leader-follower shared outcomes. Journal of Leadership and Organizational Studies, 29(2), 289-305. https://doi.org/10.1177/15480518221094481

Riggio, R.E., Lowe, K.B., & Levy, L. (2023). Why are followers neglected in leadership research.Organization Development Review, 55(3), 44-48.

 Riggio, R.E. (2014). Followership research: Looking back and looking forward.  Journal of Leadership Education, 13, DOI: 10.12806/V13/I4/C4

Support the show

*
Connect with your host Sharna Fabiano
https://www.sharnafabiano.com

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Send Fan Mail by Text!

Dr. Alain de Sales currently teaches at the Queensland University of Technology’s Graduate School of Business (GSB) in Brisbane, Australia. In this episode, he describes a recent educational project he coordinated for a group of MBA alumni, analyzing patterns of destructive leadership in the 2024 US presidential election cycle.

Back in Season 1 of the podcast, I interviewed Alain on his then and still groundbreaking PhD research on how courageous followership actions can interrupt and prevent the worst outcomes of destructive leadership actions – that episode is called Courageous Followers can Stop Destructive leadership. If you haven’t already, I suggest listening to that one first, before this one. It’s a detailed discussion of Alain’s theoretical work that will make this episode's real-time case study make more sense. 

GSB is among 1% of business schools worldwide to have triple accreditation for excellence from the world's leading accrediting bodies. At GSB Alain teaches leadership (and followership) nationally in the Executive MBA, MBA, and Public Service Management programs along with other executive education programs. 

• “That’s the biggest challenge - you don’t get a big flashing neon sign: ‘Hey, destructive leadership here! Warning, turn back!’ It’s more akin to that old analogy of the frog in boiling water.” 
• “When we look at the ultimate outcomes, if we can collectively say they’re not good, we’ve got to think differently, behave differently, no matter how uncomfortable that might be.”
• “If we can’t agree on basic facts, we will never change the way we believe and therefore the way we behave.”
• “One of the ways to increase trust in government is to increase transparency.”
• “We need to have an award system that publicly recognizes whistleblowers and encourages people to do that.”

Episode References

S1 E8 – Courageous Followers can Stop Destructive Leadership - Alain de Sales

Queensland University of Technology’s Graduate School of Business

Art Padilla, Robert Hogan, Robert B. Kaiser, “The toxic triangle: Destructive leaders, susceptible followers, and conducive environments,” The Leadership Quarterly, Volume 18, Issue 3, 2007

Project 2025 Presidential Transition Project, The Heritage Foundation
https://www.project2025.org/ 

Join or Die - documentary film
https://www.joinordiefilm.com/

Ira Chaleff, To Stop A Tyrant
https://www.amazon.com/Stop-Tyrant-Political-Followers-Leader/dp/1637560567/

Support the show

*
Connect with your host Sharna Fabiano
https://www.sharnafabiano.com

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Send Fan Mail by Text!

Actor/Director Dan Istrate shares his thoughts on presence, connection, and social leading and following.  Dan grew up in Romania and has lived for the past 25 years in the United States. He’s had thousands of both painful and hilarious experiences of language and culture translation and mis-translation, working on both stage and screen in a wide variety of creative collaborations.

Socially, his way of being seems to invite other people to be more open, more brave, more playful, more free. It’s something that’s hard to describe in words but it’s an area of leading and following that we nevertheless experience every single day. It just might transform how you see simple conversations all around you, with friends, at home, with strangers, and even maybe especially on dates. If you’re someone who feels at all anxious about talking to people, or like me feels that they are still recovering from the pandemic, this episode might be especially helpful.

• "If you think about the fact that you cannot really influence the way people perceive you–in that idea I find freedom."
• "We think that the words are the thing, but the thing is the vibration."
• "The conversation can feel better if it is anchored in the depths of our being." 
• "The most beautiful thing in the world is to connect with another human being." 

Episode References
S1 E 15 - Lead/Follow Relationships in Live Theater Performance - Dan Istrate
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/9621693-lead-follow-relationships-in-live-theater-performance-dan-istrate 

Connect with Dan Istrate:

Website: www.danistrate.com

IG: @DanIstrateDC

FB: Dan.Istrate.796

Support the show

*
Connect with your host Sharna Fabiano
https://www.sharnafabiano.com

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Send Fan Mail by Text!

Yulia Tolstikov-Mast, Ph.D.  shares the concept of a global follower and especially of global followership as a force of power that can and does influence the far-reaching decisions of global leaders. Yulia is a global leadership and followership expert, an award-winning international leadership scholar, and an educator. Her scholarship and training focus on the internalization of leadership and followership education, non-Western approaches to leadership and followership, global followership and citizenship behaviors, and leader-follower role switching.  Her most significant contribution is the Handbook of International and Cross-Cultural Leadership Research Processes. The publication is a guide on conducting international research grounded in local epistemologies. Yulia was also Co-Investigator in Russia for the GLOBE 2020 Research Project.

• “The message that was initiated by soccer players and was amplified by the followers, and it started making changes in the world.” 
• “I suggest we start posing the question, ‘Who are you as a global follower?’ and really attach energy to that question.”
• “I envision global followers as a force in numbers, in opinions, in actions.”

Episode References

Tolstikov-Mast, Y. (2016). Global followership: The launch of the scholarly journey. In J. S. Osland, M. Li, & Y. Want (Eds.), Advances in Global Leadership (Vol. 9, pp. 109-150). Bingley, UK: Emerald.

Tolstikov-Mast, Y., & Aghajanian, C. (2023). Intersectional approach to combating human trafficking: Applying an Interdisciplinary Global Leader-Follower Collaboration Paradigm. In: Dhiman, S.K., Marques, J., Schmieder-Ramirez, J., Malakyan, P.G. (eds) Handbook of Global Leadership and Followership. Springer.
https://doi.org/10.1007/978-3-030-75831-8_38-1

"What is Global Leadership?"
https://blog.utc.edu/mark-mendenhall/files/2015/05/World-Financial-Review_What-is-Global-Leadership.pdf

"10 socially-conscious players who showed footballers don’t need to 'stick to sport'"
https://www.squawka.com/en/socially-conscious-footballers-dont-need-to-stick-to-sport/

Title IX Company
https://www.titlenine.com/who-we-are.html

Mighty Be Our Powers: How Sisterhood, Prayer, and Sex Changed a Nation at War, by Leymah Gbowee
https://www.amazon.com/Mighty-Be-Our-Powers-Sisterhood/dp/0984295194 

National Whistleblower Center
https://www.whistleblowers.org/how-whistleblowers-changed-the-world/

 Global Followership Conference
www.followershipconference.com

*
Connect with Yulia Tolstikov-Mast
http

Support the show

*
Connect with your host Sharna Fabiano
https://www.sharnafabiano.com

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Send Fan Mail by Text!

Dr. Kyle Payne, a strategic talent development leader based in Chicago, describes his recent study exploring how professional engineers navigate ethical dilemmas. 

Kyle has fifteen years of experience driving process improvement and behavior change through training, coaching, and consulting. In his research, he focuses on unethical behavior at work and examines the behaviors of “ethical followers” who resist unethical behavior and call into question unethical thinking.

UPDATE: Dr. Payne's article (discussed in this episode) will be published in the summer 2024 issue of the International Journal of Ethical Leadership. Upon publication, the article may be downloaded from the journal website at https://scholarlycommons.law.case.edu/ijel/.

• “There was a lot of mention of protecting the public, protecting themselves, that sense of being a moral person, protecting colleagues, protecting the profession as well.”
• “I’m hearing these examples of very creative and courageous actions, and yet, that same participant is telling me, I wish I could have acted sooner.” 
• “It’s not just a decision, you really need to have a space where you can express these concerns, where you can feel heard…otherwise I’m not sure where you develop that sense of self-efficacy.”

Research References 

• Mary Uhl-Bien, Ronald E. Riggio, Kevin B. Lowe, Melissa K. Carsten. Followership theory: A review and research agenda. The Leadership Quarterly, Volume 25, Issue 1, 2014, Pages 83-104.
•  Carsten, M. K., & Uhl-Bien, M. (2013). Ethical Followership: An Examination of Followership Beliefs and Crimes of Obedience. Journal of Leadership & Organizational Studies, 20(1), 49-61.
•  Chaleff, I. (2009). The courageous follower: Standing up to and for our leaders (3rd ed.). Berret-Koehler Publishers.
• Hernandez, M., & Sitkin, S. B. (2012). Who is leading the leader? Follower influence on leader ethicality. In D. D. Cremer, & A. E. Tenbrunsel (Eds.), Behavioral business ethics: Shaping an emerging field (pp. 81-104). Routledge. 
• Kassing, J. (2011). Dissent in organizations. Polity Press.

Other References 

• Kasia Urbaniak, Unbound
• https://www.amazon.com/Unbound-Womans-Guide-Kasia-Urbaniak-ebook/dp/B084FKX7XV/
•  S1 E8: How Courageous Followers can stop Destructive Leadership - Alain de Sales
• https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/8716279-courageous-followers-can-stop-destructive-leadership-alain-de-sales
•  Global Followership Conference – April 25-26, 2024
• http://www.followershipconference.com

Connect with Dr. Kyle Payne:

 Website: http://www.kylepaynephd.com

 LinkedIn:

Support the show

*
Connect with your host Sharna Fabiano
https://www.sharnafabiano.com

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Send Fan Mail by Text!

Hi Everyone, this is Sharna. I’ve spent the beginning of the year in a resting phase with the podcast, letting the new season slowly take shape in my mind. New episodes are coming soon, in early March, and I’m hoping this little preview will give you a sense of how I’m thinking about season 3 as a collection of conversations.

*
Democrats Have a Better Option Than Biden
The Ezra Klein Show
 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/democrats-have-a-better-option-than-biden/id1548604447?i=1000645559771

Support the show

*
Connect with your host Sharna Fabiano
https://www.sharnafabiano.com

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Send Fan Mail by Text!

In this short, end-of year episode, host Sharna Fabiano reflects on season 2 and shares three  compelling lead and follow ideas to try out in your own life and work in 2024. Please send feedback on Season 2 along with suggestions for Season 3 directly to Sharna at sharna@sharnafabiano.com.

Special thanks to Glover Gill for providing our music.

Lead & Follow, by Sharna Fabiano
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/book/

The FREE Lead & Follow  Skill Sheet
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/book/

Unbound: A Woman's Guide to Power, by Kasia Urbaniak
https://www.kasiaurbaniak.com/unbound-book

S1 E 23: The Necessity of Followership in Peace Building – Pedro Portela
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/10291927-the-necessity-of-followership-in-peace-building-pedro-portela

S1 E12: Followership Skills as Part of Professional Development - Brian Rook
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/9075187-followership-skills-as-part-of-professional-development-brian-rook

S1 E8: Courageous Followers can Stop Destructive Leadership - Alain de Sales
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/8716279-courageous-followers-can-stop-destructive-leadership-alain-de-sales

Support the show

*
Connect with your host Sharna Fabiano
https://www.sharnafabiano.com

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Send Fan Mail by Text!

Dr. Wendy M. Edmonds is Interim Chair of the Management, Marketing, and Public Administration Department in the College of Business at a Historically Black University, and Co-Chair of the Global Followership Conference 2024.  Her research focus is on toxic followership (people following bad people).  She is an author, and internationally recognized toxic followership expert with a passion for positive change.  Dr. Edmonds describes herself as a Workplace Toxicologist whose mission is to dismantle toxic followership and foster healthier, more productive environments. 

Wendy shares the characteristics of this important - if darker - aspect of followership and how it influences how powerful or powerless we may feel in our every day lives as employees, as members of a community, or as citizens.  We also discuss how to use popular media and physical role plays in the classroom to inspire rich conversations about different kinds of followership and leadership choices.
 
 

“Toxic followership is consistent destructive behavior over and over again.”
 
 “We have to begin to have others understand that it doesn’t matter where you are – you have power that you can make the change.”
 
 “How you use power is what’s most important.”

Episode References

CNN: Escape From Jonestown
https://vimeo.com/244066619

 
 S1 E8- Courageous Followers can Stop Destructive Leadership - Alain de Sales
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/8716279-courageous-followers-can-stop-destructive-leadership-alain-de-sales

 Time of Essence documentary - the story of Essence Magazine
https://www.oprah.com/app/time-of-essence-full-episodes.html

Intoxicating Followership, by Wendy M Edmonds
https://www.amazon.com/Intoxicating-Followership-Jonestown-Wendy-Edmonds/dp/1800714599

Global Followership Conference
http://www.followershipconference.com
 
 Connect with Dr. Wendy M. Edmonds
https://www.drwendymedmonds.com/

Support the show

*
Connect with your host Sharna Fabiano
https://www.sharnafabiano.com

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Send Fan Mail by Text!

Langley Sharp is the former head of the Centre for Army Leadership, responsible for championing leadership excellence across the British Army.  After graduating from Sandhurst two decades ago, his career in the Parachute Regiment, which included operational command at every rank, saw him deployed to Northern Ireland, Macedonia, Afghanistan and Iraq. Among his many varied roles, he led a counter-insurgency Task Force operation, commanded a Parachute Regiment Battalion and delivered the Ministry of Defence’s training programme for the London 2012 Olympics venue security. He is the author of the British Army’s official account of leadership, The Habit of Excellence, distilling over three centuries of the Army's experience in the art, science and practice of leadership. And he is Founder and Director of the consultancy firm Frontier Leadership.

In this episode, Langley shares how and why followership is now becoming more explicit in the Army’s official documentation of itself, and how that articulation will in turn refine the way service members are trained in the future.

"Warfare is not a place for individuals."

“When you have to think about who’s following and who’s leading, there’s probably something wrong in the team”

“You need good followership to have good mission command.”

“Our ability to scale collaboration enables us to do great things when it works well.”

 
Episode References

> Langley Sharp, The Habit of Excellence

> British Army Doctrine Note on Followership

> Centre for Army Leadership Conference 2023 - Creating Effective Followership

“Freedom, however, is not the last word. Freedom is only part of the story and half of the truth. Freedom is but the negative aspect of the whole phenomenon whose positive aspect is responsibleness. In fact, freedom is in danger of degenerating into mere arbitrariness unless it is lived in terms of responsibleness.”
–Frankl. V.E. (1992). Man’s Search for Meaning, 4th edition. Boston: Beacon Press, 134.

Kelley R.E., The Power of Followership: How to Create Leaders People Want to Follow and Followers Who Lead Themselves, New York: Doubleday, 1992

Chaleff, I. (1995). The courageous follower: Standing up to and for our leaders. San Francisco: Berrett-Koehler Publishers.

"For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.”
–Rudyard Kipling, The Jungle Book

Connect with Langley Sharp

https://frontierleadership.co.uk/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/langley-sharp/

Support the show

*
Connect with your host Sharna Fabiano
https://www.sharnafabiano.com

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Send Fan Mail by Text!

David Elser, author of Doing the Chores, shares his concept of smart followership through personal stories of growing up on a small family farm in northwest Ohio.  David is a learning and development professional based in Coldwater Lake, Michigan who has over 30 years of experience in the transportation industry. He works with employees at all levels, from essential front-line workers to executive leaders. David has a master's degree in organizational management and is a Certified Professional Coach. 

“[Smart followership] is having the willingness and ability to enthusiastically and effectively provide support.” 

“What if we brought into the organization smart followership skills training, what would that mean?”

 "Sometimes its best to step back and let others come up with the solution."

Episode References

Shirtless Dancing Guy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW8amMCVAJQ

Trust, Followership, and Leadership in Non-Profit Change Processes - Tom Klaus
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/9340458-trust-followership-and-leadership-in-non-profit-change-processes-tom-klaus

Training Everyone in Both Leadership and Followership – Samantha Hurwitz
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/13325495-training-everyone-in-both-leadership-and-followership-samantha-hurwitz

 HR Perspective on Followership and Leadership Training - Julie Newman
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/13364704-hr-perspective-on-followership-and-leadership-training-julie-newman

Connect with David Elser

Doing the Chores Website
https://doingthechores.com

Doing the Chores Book (adults)
https://a.co/d/esqqdoS

Doing the Chores Book (kids)
https://a.co/d/9QvryVq

Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/FollowSmart

LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-r-elser-5a17655
 

Support the show

*
Connect with your host Sharna Fabiano
https://www.sharnafabiano.com

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support