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Show Notes

 

The Big Swim: 1,000 Women, One Epic Wild Swim!

 

In this episode of HeadRightOut, I chat with Nicky Chisholm, adventurer, blogger, and founder of The Big Swim—an empowering International Women’s Day event bringing together 1,000 women for a sea swim in Brighton & Dorset.

 

We dive into the power of adventure, resilience, and community, plus why Surfers Against Sewage needs our support now more than ever. Whether you're a seasoned swimmer or just wild-swim curious, this conversation will inspire you to take the plunge—literally or figuratively!

 

🔗 Full show notes below!

 

The Big Swim for IWD & Cold Adventures 021: Nicky Chisholm

 

In this episode of HeadRightOut, I chat with Nicky Chisholm, an adventurer, blogger, and founder of The Big Swim—a wild swim event bringing 1,000 women together on International Women’s Day. 🌊🏊‍♀️

 

We 'dive' into (pun intended):

~ The power of adventure for resilience & mental health
~ How wild swimming creates an uplifting, supportive community
~ The Big Swim—what it’s about & how you can get involved
~ Surfers Against Sewage – Why clean water matters now more than ever
~ Why taking small actions can create huge ripple effects

 

Resources & Links Mentioned:
- The Big Swim – Sign up or learn more: IWD 2025 - #PinkNicky
- International Women’s Day – Find events near you: https://www.internationalwomensday.com
- Surfers Against Sewage – Help protect our seas: https://www.sas.org.uk
- Adventure Stories Exeter – Get tickets: Travel Stories of Adventure Tickets, Mon, Feb 24, 2025 at 7:00 PM | Eventbrite
- HeadRightOut Newsletter – Stay updated & support my book launch: www.headrightout.com

 

Want to help with my book launch?

• Become an ARC (Advanced Reader Copy) reviewer
• Join my Street Team to help spread the word!
• Sign up via my newsletter above on headrightout.com

 

Correction: I mistakenly said Bantham Sploosh instead of Bantham Swoosh! Sorry ... my bad.

 

Tag us & share your takeaways!

#TheBigSwim #WildSwimming #HeadRightOut @headrightout @pinknicky1

 

 

If you'd like to read through the transcription of this episode, please see below:

 

Transcription

 

Nicky Chisholm The Big Swim

 

Nicky Chisholm The Big Swim

[00:00:00] Zoe Langley-Wathen: Well, welcome back everybody to the Head Right Out podcast. This is the podcast where we are trying to encourage as many midlife women as possible to head out of their comfort zone in the outdoors doing things that they wouldn't normally do. Now, it has been a while since I have recorded. My name is Zoe Langley Watson and I have been Caught up, caught up in all sorts of life stuff.

[00:00:39] Zoe Langley-Wathen We moved from our boat and we're now in a house, in Somerset and loving life and yeah, we have been caught up with all sorts of adventures and family things and yeah, personal circumstances with family that [00:01:00] needed more attention than I could possibly give if I was working and podcasting and writing.

[00:01:05] Zoe Langley-Wathen: And yeah. Trying to get a book out into the world as well. So what have I got here to tell you? Yeah, there is lots of exciting news to share with you over the coming weeks. I'm hoping to record another couple of episodes, um, where I will include more stuff about my upcoming book, ways that you can be involved in the launch of that.

[00:01:27] Zoe Langley-Wathen: And my adventure plans for 2025. So today we have a really fascinating guest and. I met Nicky at the Adventure Mind Conference 2023 and met up with her again in 2024 and we knew, in fact at 2023, we knew that we had to do a recording for the podcast but It just didn't eventuate, as I said, because I had all sorts of these family things going on.

[00:01:57] Zoe Langley-Wathen: But, we have finally got it together [00:02:00] and I'm going to not chat anymore now. I'm going to get straight into the interview with Nicky Chisholm.

[00:02:10] Zoe Langley-Wathen: Okay, welcome back everybody, I am so delighted that we have a much long awaited episode of the Head Right Out podcast. And I am here to welcome Nicky Chisholm. Good. Hello,

[00:02:25] Nicky Chisholm: Nicky.

[00:02:25] Nicky Chisholm: Hello, Luffy. Thank you so much for having me.

[00:02:27] Zoe Langley-Wathen: You're very welcome. So Nicky is an experienced project manager. She is a blogger, also in the adventure industry, and she has been exploring since she was 18.

[00:02:37] Zoe Langley-Wathen: So I am going to lead into a few questions where Nicky is going to explain all about who she is, what she's been doing, and what she's got coming up, because it's terribly exciting. So Nicky, could you explain where your love for adventure started?

[00:02:53] Nicky Chisholm: Oh, that's a good one. I definitely remember I was 18 years old.

[00:02:58] Nicky Chisholm: Um, I think just finished [00:03:00] a levels and I got invited to go along and attend a talk to be a crew on a tall ship. So it was the first time I think I've been away from home for any period of time. There were 36 girls on the ship. So it is learning about seamanship, learning about being away from home and homesickness and all You know, working and being with other people and in really cramped spaces and really wet and really windy and really seasick.

[00:03:25] Nicky Chisholm: Um, it was a baptism of fire, but I really loved it. I remember going into St. Marlow Harbour in France and we'd basically manned the rigging. So we had all 36 of us up, up the three masts saluting as he went into St. Marlow. And I wish she'd had a photograph of that. Cause I, I feel really proud now. And that's like 30 years ago.

[00:03:45] Nicky Chisholm: I just remember that moment, but it was before we all had. Cameras and drones and photos, but it just would have been a cracking, cracking shot. And I think that's. Although I was really homesick and I was really seasick, it sort of definitely [00:04:00] whetted my appetite for adventure and mum and dad were always into adventures as well when we were little, so I think it's their legacy to me and that's what I want to pass on as a legacy to my children to know that adventure and being outside is a way of navigating the many ups.

[00:04:17] Nicky Chisholm: And downs and curve balls that life throws at you. It's a way of meeting people, new challenges, testing yourself, putting yourself, even in adventures, you have adventures in adventures, don't you? So if you go on an adventure, you're bound to have 10 adventures with inside one adventure. And it's all like a big puzzle that planes left.

[00:04:35] Nicky Chisholm: I haven't got any money or that that's shut or that's closed. I'm not feeling very well. It's just like a massive puzzle all the time. So yeah, 18 years ago, still going strong now at 30 and yeah, loving it.

[00:04:47] Zoe Langley-Wathen: Amazing. So, just hearing you talking about that tour ship adventure, I would have absolutely loved to have done something like that.

[00:04:54] Zoe Langley-Wathen: When I was 18, I can imagine all of the emotions going on there, you know, the fear, [00:05:00] the adrenaline rush, climbing that rigging, the connection that you're making with one another, potentially the, the fractions as well, you know, the things going on, like the teamwork and how to work through things. So what do you think that experience taught you that you then brought through into later adventures and later life?

[00:05:20] Nicky Chisholm: I think every experience has very similar pattern in terms. It's a resilience building is confidence building. It's problem solving. It's managing conflict. It's finding new opportunities. It's finding new people. They would be applicable to every one of us on every adventure that we've probably ever been on.

[00:05:38] Nicky Chisholm: I definitely have a terrible habit of jumping in with both feet. I remember a few years ago for my 50th, I went to Greenland and ran a half marathon. I know I do it. I read the title, Half Marathon in Greenland. I just literally read a few words and I just signed up. And I always do that. I just sign up for something.

[00:05:55] Nicky Chisholm: I don't read any of it. I just think I'm going to make it happen. I like the title. I like [00:06:00] the picture. I'm going to make it happen. So I do that. And I'm getting worse. I saw something yesterday. I thought, right, I'm going to do that. A hundred kilometers in a cross country ski in Sweden. Yep. I'm going to do that.

[00:06:10] Nicky Chisholm: And then I just make it happen. I sort of work backwards. So I like jumping in with both feet. I don't know why. I think I'm not very good at reading manuals and I just jump in. Let me see if I can swim. Let me see if I can do it. And now over 30 years, I've done that so many times that the transferable skills have always been, okay, well, I can't do this, but I can do that.

[00:06:31] Nicky Chisholm: And I think they've definitely transferred, transferred, transferred. And now I'm actually quite good at jumping in with both feet and not drowning.

[00:06:37] Zoe Langley-Wathen: Yeah, no, that's, that's great. That's a bonus. What resilience and confidence to have carried through all of those 30 years since that experience. I was actually going to ask you about your next big adventure, which you've just touched on there.

[00:06:51] Zoe Langley-Wathen: So I love the fact that you dive in head first, you grab it. That's not the way I can do it. I have to read through every tiny bit of small [00:07:00] print first before I, I'll commit myself. So it's funny how we're all so different. But yeah, so you said you've done this, was it a half marathon in Greenland? Is that what you said?

[00:07:10] Zoe Langley-Wathen: Yes. Yes.

[00:07:11] Nicky Chisholm: Yeah, yeah. So that, that was for my 50th. That was a couple of years ago. Yes. And I wanted to do something for my 50th, I thought. And I really like cold places. I like cold adventures because I always run really hot. I'm in cold places. I feel like I'm at a normal temperature. So I think that's why I really love wrapping up and getting out in the snow and in the cold.

[00:07:26] Nicky Chisholm: So Greenland was for my 50th. That was a half marathon. So I trained for that. Um, I'm not a runner. I'm a terrible runner. And I run like a snail. But I run. And I like the adventure bit. So yeah, Greenland was a couple of years ago. Okay.

[00:07:39] Zoe Langley-Wathen: Okay. Right. Just rewind. So you're not a runner. I mean, oh my gosh. So there's that whole thing of, we are what we think we are.

[00:07:48] Zoe Langley-Wathen: We do something, you know, I write things down. So I call myself a writer. I might jog up the road so I can call myself a runner, but, but you're saying you're, you're not a runner, but you still signed up for this half marathon.

[00:07:59] Nicky Chisholm: Yeah, [00:08:00] because I wanted to go to Greenland and I wanted to do something punchy and powerful for my 50th to mark me being me at 50.

[00:08:07] Nicky Chisholm: And I just thought, well, I'll just do the training. So I started with a couch to 5K, then you did a 5K, then an 8K, then a 10K. Then I did a half marathon in Brighton to see if I could do the distance. And then I thought, well, I can definitely do the distance. Now I need some power and some sort of gas in the tank.

[00:08:23] Nicky Chisholm: So. When you're out in Greenland, it takes much longer. You're running on snow. You're running in spikes. You're running at minus 10. It's all very different. So you can do the distance, but you kind of need more of a sort of a superpower inside, so you need to be stronger. And I knew that if I could do the distance here, it was like building your comfort zone.

[00:08:40] Nicky Chisholm: So building, building, building, building. And I knew, knew that I could do it. So I know I did love Greenland and I'd definitely go back there. That is, is

[00:08:46] Zoe Langley-Wathen: just so empowering. Yeah, there are times where I think, Oh, I would love to go back to running, but I don't because I keep getting injuries. But now I'm thinking, Oh,

[00:08:55] Nicky Chisholm: I really did enjoy running.

[00:08:56] Nicky Chisholm: Yeah, running is good. I think some people love it, really love it, and they get up and [00:09:00] think, I've got to go for a run. I never think that. I always think, I have to go to run because my training schedule today, which is stuck to my fridge, says I've got to do four miles. So I will follow it, but I'm not a kind of a natural runner.

[00:09:10] Nicky Chisholm: I'm a natural at being outdoors and loving being outside, but that was the particular medium. For Greenland. So the next adventure that I'm doing is actually coming up in a couple of weeks. We're going as a team of eight to cross country ski a hundred kilometers in Finland. So yeah, we'll be pulling our pulks.

[00:09:27] Nicky Chisholm: It's self, um, well, I can't think of the word, self supported, self contained, self supported, that's the word. It's all self supported. So we need to travel as light as possible. And I'm a terrible bag lady. I carry spares. I carry barbecues. I carry umbrellas. I carry boots and flip flops. I carry everything.

[00:09:44] Nicky Chisholm: So this is like, I'm. It's been spread over my bed and floor for weeks. I just cannot get it down to really light because I've got to pull it. I'm a bit rubbish at that. So I'm going to need some help with my crew, which I'll meet out in Finland. And then they'll say, Nicky, you can't have that. You can't have that.

[00:09:59] Nicky Chisholm: [00:10:00] And you can't have that. I can imagine it. And so how long have you been training for this then, Nicky? So, I've basically been going for the last couple of months, so I always give myself a three or four month lead in to make sure I'm strong enough. And one of the things I found really hard last time I did it, is every time you fall over, you've got a rucksack on, and your pulk is attached to you, and you've got two skis attached to you.

[00:10:22] Nicky Chisholm: Getting up was just, sometimes I couldn't do it. I had to take the rucksack off, then take the pulk off, then stand up and then do it all again. And every time you use that uses up tons and tons of energy and it's quite demoralizing. So one of the things I have been doing in my kitchen every morning and my boys think I'm mad, I sort of fall over and get up.

[00:10:39] Nicky Chisholm: So I'm doing that 30 times I fall over and get up. So it's just a way of trying to replicate that weird sort of movement to get myself up and down. Because one time I just couldn't get up and the girls had to literally lift me off the ground. So I just needed to be stronger. Yeah. So it's muscle

[00:10:55] Zoe Langley-Wathen: memory and strength, core strength.

[00:10:57] Nicky Chisholm: Yeah, strong, really, yeah, core strength. So I'm doing [00:11:00] lunges back and forward in the kitchen and across the front room. And yeah, my son's a personal trainer. So he's been saying, Mom, you've got to do this. You've got to carry these weights. So he's been helping me. Oh, that is just amazing. Really,

[00:11:11] Zoe Langley-Wathen: really inspiring.

[00:11:12] Zoe Langley-Wathen: And so there's so many things that are happening for you. And this is, I guess, this is your superpower because you are a project manager. You can have lots of things happening at any given time. And you know, which direction to take them, you know, how to follow them through, you know, how to see them to a conclusion, but there's something big happening in March, isn't there?

[00:11:34] Zoe Langley-Wathen: Would you like to share with us about that? I

[00:11:38] Nicky Chisholm: would love to. Um, so yeah, project manager is my day job. So I project manager for products, services, websites in the adventure industry. But that's what I do for bread and butter. But my passion project, which I've been running for the last three years, is called The Big Swim.

[00:11:53] Nicky Chisholm: So it is a wild swim for women in Brighton to celebrate [00:12:00] International Women's Day. International Women's Day is a worldwide, it's a global day. Um, on Saturday, March the 8th, which basically marks a special day for women. So women all over across the world, they want all sorts of activities, workshops, conferences, activities, online and offline.

[00:12:18] Nicky Chisholm: And it's a way of one day for uniting and drawing attention. To women, where we've come from, where we need to go in terms of politics, education, medicine, um, law, um, social community, all sorts. So wherever you are in the world, there is definitely something there for you. Now, what I want to do is I'm a massive supporter of women.

[00:12:39] Nicky Chisholm: I'm really good at getting women together, uniting them and getting them doing stuff. So I wanted to do something and get women together. So we use the medium of swimming. We've all been swimming like lunatics since during lockdown and afterwards and loving it. I've been for my dip this morning, you'll be very proud.

[00:12:55] Nicky Chisholm: Freezing. Gosh, yes, it would have been, what, about [00:13:00] minus one today? I was too busy screaming. I'm a horrible, like, go and scream and yelp and then get out again. I'm rubbish. That would be me. I'm not sophisticated or quiet. Yeah, I'm properly rubbish. So the swim is, we've done for the last few years. The first year we had 250 swimmers, second year we had 500, and I thought we'd set ourselves a little goal of getting a thousand this year.

[00:13:23] Nicky Chisholm: So, um, we're going to do 500 swimmers in Brighton and 500 swimmers in Dorset. And what we want to do is have a thousand swimmers on that day. They've been sold out the last couple of years and I know they'll sell out again. The day is It's only a couple of hours, because obviously it's March, it's a dip in the sea, it is freezing.

[00:13:42] Nicky Chisholm: But the energy, and the spectacle, and the noise of 500 women, and their supporters, and their kids, and their parents, and dogs, and cousins, and aunties. There is hats, and bobble hats, and picnics, and champagne, and cups of tea. It's just brilliant. Honestly, I can feel [00:14:00] my heart filling, literally, I can feel it.

[00:14:02] Nicky Chisholm: If I could just bottle that. Honestly, we'd be millionaires. If you could bottle that feeling, it's almost like you can feel it. You could feel the energy. I can feel it here. It's palpable just hearing you talk. It's so lovely and then it's really brilliant. We've got drone footage of everyone going in the sea.

[00:14:21] Nicky Chisholm: So then you hear 500 women all going in the sea, going screaming and weeping and laughing. And everyone makes a real effort with like sparkles and headdresses and colourful outfits. You know, there's. Sequins and we've got one. She's a professional mermaid SJ. She comes. She has the whole mermaid outfit and she looks amazing and there's 500 women on that beach and for the first year I was so involved in it.

[00:14:47] Nicky Chisholm: I didn't really get to chat to loads of people, but last year it was so lovely. People were saying, you know, I've been looking forward to this all year. I'm struggling with my mental health. I wanted to come down and do something. I met a grandma and then her daughter and [00:15:00] her granddaughter. So there was Three generations of them swimming.

[00:15:03] Nicky Chisholm: There's people celebrating birthdays. There's people celebrating milestones in their lives. And I just thought this is, I was really proud and women are so good. They've their natural connectors, put them in the right place. They are natural connectors and you just hear the noise and they're sharing cake and chatting saying, where have you come from?

[00:15:22] Nicky Chisholm: You know, how long have you been swimming? They really good. They just blossom, put them in the right place and you can literally see them flourishing. That's beautiful because then

[00:15:33] Zoe Langley-Wathen: they're supporting other women who are perhaps more novice swimmers. Yeah. I would be like that. Just not everybody has the confidence to go and do that.

[00:15:42] Zoe Langley-Wathen: And so having a group, a community of women who are supporting one another, and they're not just supporting one another in the swimming, I'm guessing. There's possibly conversations going on about things that are going on outside of their swimming life, you know, things at home, things in the family, things at work.

[00:15:58] Zoe Langley-Wathen: It just has a knock on [00:16:00] effect, doesn't it? For you, what does that mean to you being part of that swimming community?

[00:16:04] Nicky Chisholm: For me, I love it. I love, like, my swimming group is the, this morning. So we meet, we chat, and we chat in the sauna, and we go in, swim in the sea, and It's your kind of your hour to decompress, you're not, you know, you're not mom, you're not daughter, you're not business woman, author, writer, whatever, you're just you and it's lovely and you go in there and you just chat and it's really refreshing.

[00:16:29] Nicky Chisholm: One of the things that I want to do with the swim, I wanted to make it a sexy 1000 is a big number and I thought when if all those women come and they register, I want to make sure that they all do something. So on the registration form. We have asked me saying, look, you're part of this swim. You're also part of the solution.

[00:16:46] Nicky Chisholm: You can take action. You can help, you can support, you can elevate, you can amplify other women. What can you do? So we're asking those 1, 000 women to take one action. So I know that not just on the day, I've drawn attention to International Women's [00:17:00] Day. I've drawn attention to Brighton Sea Swimming. I've drawn attention to the blog.

[00:17:03] Nicky Chisholm: So people, if they want resources on swimming, being safe, comfort zone. I know. They have a place to find resources. I wanted them to have a slightly longer term effect. So I'm saying if you've joined up and you've signed, you've got a ticket, what are you going to do to help somebody in your environment?

[00:17:19] Nicky Chisholm: Can you support a charity? Can you be a volunteer? Can you be a mentor? Can you run a workshop just to do something? So I want from that day a thousand. Actions to be taken from those 1000 women to help other women in that community. And then there'll be the ripple effect from not only a 500 women were going in the sea, which is proper ripples, but then like a ripple effect afterwards, you know, for the next six months or a year from the actions that people take.

[00:17:47] Nicky Chisholm: So I want it to be fun and frivolous, but then I'm a real person. Take action, do something. What can you do? Play to your strengths. Yeah. And

[00:17:54] Zoe Langley-Wathen: having that mission behind it means, yes, you can have fun, but you have got something perhaps a bit [00:18:00] deeper or a bit more serious behind it where it's serving a purpose.

[00:18:03] Nicky Chisholm: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Because I'm really good at the front of the frivolous and the nonsense, but there needs to be some sort of like, um, raison d'etre. Normally I'd be raising money. Now we are raising money for Surface Against Sewage. That's our chosen charity. So 1 for every ticket goes to Surface Against Sewage.

[00:18:22] Nicky Chisholm: They'll also be there doing their collecting as well. And everybody that's involved in seaswimming, whether you'll be a paddleboarder, kayaker, seaswimmer, fisherman, they would have Felt the effects of the sewage issues over the last couple of years. Most people have felt the effects firsthand and they will understand the need for surface against sewage because not only do they do beach litter picks, but they do have policy and then they're working with the central government as well to get these policies through for clean water.

[00:18:54] Zoe Langley-Wathen: That's so important, isn't it? Yeah, get that message across. Fabulous. So, looking further [00:19:00] on, how do you see, or what would you like to see women who are listening to this today? What do you want to see them do? How can they take part? How can they find out more? Yeah, what would you like to say to them?

[00:19:13] Nicky Chisholm: I think obviously if you come along to the swim, it's in Brighton, it's in Dorset on Saturday, the 8th of March coming up as the tickets go live on January the 20th.

[00:19:22] Nicky Chisholm: I appreciate that that's South Coast based and it's not all over the country. I would say if you go for a swim yourself and let us know, use the hashtag the big swim and let us know what you're doing. So do something on that day. You know, if you want to swim. Do your swim and then use the hashtag at the big swim and then we can follow what you're doing.

[00:19:40] Nicky Chisholm: Do something in your own community. So go onto the International Women's Day website. Look at the events. You can filter by events or you can filter by location or dates and pick something and go along to it. So you are part of the activity. You're part of conversations that are taking place and then, you know, you can be part of it.[00:20:00]

[00:20:00] Nicky Chisholm: Don't underestimate what you can do because if you do something, your friend or your neighbor will go, she's doing something. I'm going to do that. And then somebody else might do that. You know, don't underestimate people. Let's just think, Oh, if I only give a pound, it's a pound. But if a hundred people give a pound, that's a hundred quid.

[00:20:15] Nicky Chisholm: You know, I've done enough fundraising to know, just, just get involved. If people say I've only got a fiver, but I think Mate, you've just given me a fiver. Fabulous. And then somebody else sees a fiver and then they give a fiver. It's, it's the cumulative effect of people doing stuff. So just make an effort to get involved.

[00:20:31] Nicky Chisholm: International Women's Day. Um, look at their website, if you're going to do a swim, then tag, hashtag the big swim, sign up to the new, my newsletter. We've got eight blogs going out over the course of the next couple of weeks. And that's things like getting outside of my comfort zone, why I should get involved, you know, things a little bit more generic, just do something.

[00:20:50] Nicky Chisholm: You know, when you find women in the right place. It's so brilliant and so empowering and you can walk away having started your day badly and [00:21:00] you can think, I'm okay, this is good and maybe, maybe I'm finding my tribe and that's what everyone wants. Find your people and you can flourish.

[00:21:08] Zoe Langley-Wathen: God, yes,

[00:21:08] Nicky Chisholm: definitely.

[00:21:09] Nicky Chisholm: And

[00:21:10] Zoe Langley-Wathen: that thing of don't underestimate what you can do. That is so important for people to hear. So if there are women that are thinking, well, I'd really love to take part in that. That. And I, maybe I live in Dorset or I live near Brighton and I could attend, but I'm not very confident about being in the water.

[00:21:26] Zoe Langley-Wathen: Is there, is there a level of technique or what's the, what's their level? What's that need to be? No,

[00:21:33] Nicky Chisholm: I would, I would say. If you're brand new to sea swimming, do not in a million years come down in March and get in the sea because it is so cold, but come down, paddle your feet in the sea, which will last about five seconds and then come out, but come down and be part of the event, paddle your feet in the sea and be involved.

[00:21:55] Nicky Chisholm: Do not swim because it will put you off for life. You might give yourself a terrible shock and you [00:22:00] won't. be able to do it again. But most of the swimmers that will come down, we do have swimmers that it's called skin. So you're just in your swimming costume. Or if you're me, I have the wetsuit, I have the boots, I have the gloves, I have the bubble hats because I get so cold in the water.

[00:22:15] Nicky Chisholm: So, um, yeah, everybody's welcome. It is, um, it is a community event. So it's non profit making. We do have lifeguards there. We have On the beach lifeguards and in the sea lifeguards. We also have first aid to make sure everyone's safe. We've got health and safety and risk assessments and all the rest of it.

[00:22:32] Nicky Chisholm: Cause I want to make sure all my swimmers are safe, but it is, you know, you do do it under your own, um, what's the word, your own steam and you have to be responsible for yourself. So we say no drinking, no drugs. Obviously.

[00:22:44] Zoe Langley-Wathen: Yes. That's

[00:22:44] Nicky Chisholm: great.

[00:22:45] Zoe Langley-Wathen: Okay. So many exciting things going on there. In terms of the swimming community and what you get up to, what you wear, what you talk about, I mean, are there things around that that are fun and things that we don't know?[00:23:00]

[00:23:00] Zoe Langley-Wathen: I know of swimmers who swim not too far away from here at the Marine Lake in Clevedon. And I know they say that they have such an amazing time there. But yeah, they always seem to be like there with their bubble hats and banging on about having to have cake afterwards, which sounds wonderful. That is appealing to me in itself.

[00:23:17] Zoe Langley-Wathen: So yeah, what are some of the fun things that you chat about and that you wear and that you

[00:23:22] Nicky Chisholm: do? I think There's a kind of elevation. So you start in your group, you go along as one person and you think, Oh, I'm a bit nervous. And then you meet your group and then you do a swim, then you do another swim. And currently my group, we, in January, it's fancy dress.

[00:23:36] Nicky Chisholm: So this morning it was mermaids. And pirates. So you go along, not only are you freezing cold and you've got your wetsuit on, but you're dressed as a really weird pirate and a really weird mermaid. And of course you look completely nuts. But then that's the whole principle and the whole point of it. Um, so there's a bit of silliness and then there's also when you're getting changed, you know, people start talking.

[00:23:53] Nicky Chisholm: It can be more serious, how's your week? How's your mom? How are you doing? That kind of thing. But then there. I found with a lot of groups [00:24:00] there's an elevation so sometimes people might meet for lunch or it's somebody's birthday or they think look there's a 5k in another county, should we go and do that?

[00:24:07] Nicky Chisholm: Or um, there's a swim in Turkey, should we go and do that? Or look does anyone fancy saving up and going to Jersey to do a swim? So it seems to be when I'm listening to the conversations, there is a sort of a pathway you start really nervous and you never know in a couple of years time you might end up in a boat.

[00:24:25] Nicky Chisholm: in the Galapagos Islands doing a swim, which is what I've seen in one of my group. Now that's obviously extreme, but a group of us last summer, we went down to Bantham and we did an 8k swim there together all through the river. And it was lovely. So I had a little community because I asked my friends and my family, do they want to go?

[00:24:43] Nicky Chisholm: And they say, no. So I need to find. My swim tribe so that I can do the swims that I want. So there's sort of like an elevation and a pathway. So you just never know where you're going to go. You've just got to be open to those opportunities. If somebody says, look, do you want to do a 5k think, okay, I'll do it, but I'm going to [00:25:00] train, I'm going to swim, you know, it takes me like three hours.

[00:25:03] Nicky Chisholm: I'm really slow, but I do it. And laugh and chat and eat food along the way and shovel jelly babies in, we all need fuel. I let me tell you a little story because you're like this. So I was in the Bantham Swoosh. We'd been in the water for a couple of hours and there was kind of like, um, a muddy island in the middle of this river.

[00:25:22] Nicky Chisholm: And I stopped and I looked behind and there was a lady and she was looking really worried. And I said, I shouted out, are you all right? Can I help you? And then we were in the middle of a river and um, I was looking at this woman thinking, I know this woman, I know this woman, who is she? And I just looked at her, she was so, so beautiful, even though she had a wetsuit on and goggles and a hat, I could just see she's just beautiful.

[00:25:45] Nicky Chisholm: And I was looking at her skin thinking, I know this woman, Anyway, it turned out to be a Hollywood superstar. I can't say any more than that.

[00:25:52] Zoe Langley-Wathen: Oh, I've got goosebumps. I mean, that is just amazing.

[00:25:55] Nicky Chisholm: How weird is that? In a river, in the middle of nowhere, and it [00:26:00] was a Hollywood superstar, and I was like, oh my god, this is so weird.

[00:26:03] Nicky Chisholm: And she was freezing cold, and I fed her jelly babies, so I always have jelly babies in my wetsuit here. So we're in this river, it was all freezing cold, we're really white, and I gave, I was feeding her jelly babies, because she had not an ounce of fat on her, and she was freezing cold, and I was like, mate, I've got to get you somewhere safe.

[00:26:20] Nicky Chisholm: So I was shoving the jelly babies in, and then we got her home. I know! Hollywood superstar. I'm not allowed to say who. No, that's fine. But

[00:26:27] Zoe Langley-Wathen: that's so incredible that she is being a part of that and that she is, well, she's a woman. She's, she's taking part in, that wasn't for International Women's Day. I've just realized.

[00:26:39] Zoe Langley-Wathen: That was Bantham. That was the sploosh. Yeah. But yeah, the Bantham

[00:26:42] Nicky Chisholm: sploosh. No, it was, that was just swim. There, there, there is so many now brilliant events, isn't there? Across the country for swimming or hiking or whatever, but she just happened to be there in that one. And I think with the sea or swimming, it's a great leveler.

[00:26:55] Isn't

[00:26:55] Nicky Chisholm: it? Everyone's welcome to do it. Yeah, yeah, definitely.

[00:26:58] Zoe Langley-Wathen: So there's so much [00:27:00] that we haven't yet talked about that I would have loved to have talked about with you because you have done so many other interesting and exciting adventures and expeditions and challenges. Um, But I guess, Nicky, I'm coming to the end where I normally ask all of my guests the question that is, do you have a head right out moment?

[00:27:20] Zoe Langley-Wathen: It's a moment where you've pushed yourself out of your comfort zone and done something that you never really thought you were able to do. So out of your mammoth amount of adventures, is there one thing where you can say, yes, I really push myself out my comfort zone and I push through and I do. It's easy.

[00:27:36] Nicky Chisholm: It's, it's so easy. It just popped into my head straight away. So on the start line of the Greenland half marathon, I was shaking. I always do that. I get so overexcited, like a small child. And then my adrenaline is. Going mad. I'm half panicking. I'm half my adrenaline. I'm half excited and I'm half terrified and I just, I just can't control it.

[00:27:55] Nicky Chisholm: And I just stream like that. So I remember standing on the start line thinking, [00:28:00] just get your shit together. Just get your shit together. And there was a guy with a gun on one side of me to keep away the polar bears. And then there was the guy with the starting pistol on the other side. And I was like, Nicky, what are you doing?

[00:28:11] Nicky Chisholm: Why would you ever be anywhere where there's a man on a gun on the start line? This is not good. And as soon as the gun went off, I just ran. I'm not good at standing still in that sort of moment. I like just need to move and I knew if I put one step, then there was another step and that's it, I was off.

[00:28:27] Nicky Chisholm: So as soon as I could go, it was really horrible being held in like a holding pen and just shaking. And not being able to put the energy somewhere and streaming like that. And of course it's like minus five. So these are beginning to, you can't see out of your eyes and your contact lenses feel funny and you're streaming down here and your nose is like dripping.

[00:28:46] Nicky Chisholm: It was like, Jesus, could you just let me run? And I was off the gun, the gun went off. And I said, I was like, Nicky, this is your moment. You've been training for like. 18 months for this. This is your moment. I had no headphones, nothing. I just [00:29:00] ran and I bloody loved it. I was in the middle of nowhere, the most remote I've ever been, the coldest I've ever been, never run on a glacier, never run on spikes.

[00:29:08] Nicky Chisholm: So it was all those things I've never done, never done, never done, never done. And do you know what? I bloody loved it. Every minute of it, weirdly enough.

[00:29:16] Zoe Langley-Wathen: Epic. Well done. Everything you say, it just shines. It just has a way of making me feel like, Oh my gosh, that sounds like it's going to be incredible. But thank you.

[00:29:27] Zoe Langley-Wathen: Thank you so much, Nicky. Yay! Is there, is there anything else that you would like to share that you feel that we haven't talked about that you would have liked to have had the opportunity

[00:29:37] Nicky Chisholm: to talk about? Oh my God, probably millions. But do you know what? Let's save it for another day. I think we'll save it for another day because all I would say is I just want to say thank you for having me.

[00:29:46] Nicky Chisholm: I love listening to podcasts. I love listening to your podcast and I'm looking forward to my community listening to us and getting your podcast out into the wider world. So anyone that wants to join the, the big swim www. [00:30:00] pinknicki. com Come along and join us. And yeah, that's it.

[00:30:03] Zoe Langley-Wathen: So thank you. Great. Thank you so much, Nicky.

[00:30:05] Zoe Langley-Wathen: Nicky Chisholm. This has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you. Thanks, Zoe.

[00:30:17] Zoe Langley-Wathen: Wow. Wasn't that an amazing conversation with Nicky? I really wish I had had longer to chat with her, but I was watching the clock all the time and it's that whole thing with the platform that begins with Z. For a while there, during COVID, we had unlimited time and, you know, I used to go up to an hour or just over and yeah, 40 minutes just never seems quite long enough.

[00:30:41] Zoe Langley-Wathen: But yeah, so much. That could be unpacked from that conversation. I mean, something that I've written down here to include in this summary at the end was a thousand actions. This is what Nicky is aiming for. Or, you know, would dearly love to see happen a thousand actions [00:31:00] to be taken from those thousand women to help other women in that community and the ripple effects as a result of that would just be incredible.

[00:31:10] Zoe Langley-Wathen: So, you know, if you think about it. What Nicky's doing, she's uniting all of these women together across the South Coast in a bid to encourage them to swim more, try world swimming if they haven't done before, get together in a community of like minded women, and it's not all about the swimming as you heard Nicky say.

[00:31:31] Zoe Langley-Wathen: They are a vibrant community, they're fun loving, they will try things, they're supportive. That's, I mean, that's the thing about women, when you get them together in groups, they are supportive. And it's about raising awareness for International Women's Day, and the focus aligns with International Women's Day 2025, hashtag, Accelerate Action Campaign, which is helping to amplify its message and take one action from that day to accelerate [00:32:00] positive change.

[00:32:00] Zoe Langley-Wathen: So that's what the whole thousand actions to be taken from those thousand women to help other women in the community is all about. And then supporting, the charity they're supporting is Surface Against Sewage, which obviously is a massive cause that really needs support, those people who are advocating for change in, in our rivers and seas.

[00:32:21] Zoe Langley-Wathen: So, Nicky sent me some information earlier and it talks about how the South Coast. Faces significant challenges with sewage pollution and plastic waste. It's affecting our beaches, it's affecting our marine ecosystem, that affects our food chain and our health. There's so much about the ecosystem underwater that actually really impacts on us as human beings and I think it's very short sighted for the government's, um, the people in power to not realize this.

[00:32:53] Zoe Langley-Wathen: So I don't want to get too political, but there are certain things that do need to be said. So something that [00:33:00] Nicky sent me previously about wild swimming were the health benefits. And she says here that some of the health benefits that are included are the fact that it can help with multiple aches and pains, the weight of family.

[00:33:15] Zoe Langley-Wathen: And I think what she means by that is that it can help reduce the weight of all of the family issues that might be going on for you. So if you're having troubles, you can share those problems with other people. But also just being in the water can help reduce those problems and in a few mental health as well.

[00:33:34] Zoe Langley-Wathen: And it can help with illnesses. Blue health, it says here. Sea swimming is known to stimulate the parasympathetic system, which is responsible for rest and repair, and can trigger the release of dopamine and serotonin. We all need a little extra dopamine hit every now and again. Sea water is rich in magnesium.

[00:33:51] Zoe Langley-Wathen: It can help us relax, relieve stress, and promote sleep. For the spiritually minded, it is a place to tune in and tap into the experience on [00:34:00] another level. I love it. I love it, and yet I've never really got into swimming in a big way, and I would love to be able to do it. But it's just, you know, we've all got our thing, haven't we?

[00:34:10] Zoe Langley-Wathen: It's, you know, what is our thing that we connect with? Yeah, she just makes it sound so inviting. So, other things I wanted to mention about this. So yes, 1 for every ticket that is sold for the big swim goes to Surfers Against Sewage. And what was the other thing I made a note of? Oh yes, I did notice that I made a little boo boo and it just made me chuckle, I left it in.

[00:34:37] Zoe Langley-Wathen: So I was talking about the Bantham sploosh and of course it's not. Those people who know all about the Bantham sploosh would have been screaming at their phones, or at their platforms, or at their Alexas, or wherever they're listening to this podcast. Um, going, it's not sploosh, it's swoosh. So yes, apologies for that.

[00:34:56] Zoe Langley-Wathen: But yeah, love the story about the Hollywood superstar needing a little bit [00:35:00] of jelly baby assistance from Nicky. I thought that was great. And it's the Bantham swoosh. So apologies there. So yes, get yourselves over to pinknicki. com and get yourself a ticket. And the last time I checked, which was probably five or six days ago, I think seven or 800 tickets had been sold already.

[00:35:19] Zoe Langley-Wathen: There's only, what would it be? About three weeks left. So I think she's going to make it. She's going to get those thousand tickets sold and really make an impact.

[00:35:34] Zoe Langley-Wathen: So exciting stuff with my book. So the book. Long awaited, it's been four and a bit years in the making, all being well, I've got my fingers tightly crossed here, all being well, it will launch on the 15th of April. I say all being well because it has been a really steep learning curve with time management.

[00:35:56] Zoe Langley-Wathen: So much to do and it's just me. I [00:36:00] haven't got somebody else there saying, right, you've got to do this next. You've got to do this next. I've never done it before. And I'm just gradually working my way through each of these processes, but the book is finished, complete, it's been professionally edited by an amazing editor, also Nicky.

[00:36:18] Zoe Langley-Wathen: Seems to be a popular name in this episode. So yes, it's been professionally edited and I am doing the artwork. I'm doing a front cover, which is using the reduction lino cut process. Any of you who are printmakers will know that that takes time. It'd been 25 years since I'd done any printmaking. I did do a degree in fine art, so, you know, I've got some experience there, but yeah, it'd been a while.

[00:36:44] Zoe Langley-Wathen: So. I'm working on that still. I should have had it done probably a month ago. Yeah, I'm, I just want it to be right. And I'm trying not to get into that situation where I'm trying to make it perfect. I [00:37:00] realize it's better to have it done and not perfect than Not done and perfect, if you know what I mean.

[00:37:07] Zoe Langley-Wathen: But yeah, it is a massive learning curve. I am going to take this through into the second book when I begin writing that. But yes, watch this space. If you would like to be notified about The book and any other information to do with Head Right Out, please, please go to the website www. headrightout. com and click subscribe.

[00:37:31] Zoe Langley-Wathen: There will be a pop up that comes up. I also possibly need to go on to the. Website actually make sure there is a subscribe button as well, but you can subscribe via that pop up and you will be notified via a newsletter when the book is released and all the other information to do with it. It will also give me the opportunity to email people who have subscribed the opportunity to help me with the launch.

[00:37:58] Zoe Langley-Wathen: So it might [00:38:00] be that you want to be an arc reader. So that's an advanced reader copy reader. It might be that you want to be part of my street team, which would involve you posting regularly on social media for a couple of weeks. Yeah, there's, there's all sorts of little jobs that if we've got a lot of people doing it, it just.

[00:38:20] Zoe Langley-Wathen: breaks it up and just helps us to support one another and you'll be supporting me as well and for which I will be eternally grateful. Okay, in other news, I've got another solo adventure coming up in April of this year and this is actually going to be almost a mirror of what I did last year so some of you won't I don't actually know what I did last year because I wasn't podcasting at that point.

[00:38:47] Zoe Langley-Wathen: I was posting it on social media, however. So I walked to Carnglaze Caverns in Cornwall from Somerset and That was to go and see the opening night of Salt [00:39:00] Lines, which was a performance between the Gig Spanner Big Band and Rainer Wynne, Salt Path. I walked from my home in Somerset to Cornwall. It was about 125 miles.

[00:39:10] Zoe Langley-Wathen: Brutal weather in May, would you believe? Dartmoor nearly killed me. That's a whole other episode. But it was such a powerful experience because I hadn't actually done a solo walk like that in probably 10 years. And I hadn't realized it had been so long. So yeah, it really, really pushed me out of my comfort zone and stretched me beyond what I thought I was capable of at 53.

[00:39:36] Zoe Langley-Wathen: And Hey, I did it. I'm here and it really did give me a boost of resilience and confidence for a long time afterwards. And actually, I'm going to be talking about that particular walk at the Adventure Stories in Exeter at the end of this month. So if any of you are in the South or Southwest and you fancy coming along [00:40:00] to Gosh, I've forgotten the name of the place, but I will put a link in the show notes.

[00:40:05] Zoe Langley-Wathen: So there'll be a link in the show notes for the adventure stories, tickets are 6. 50 and there's going to be me and another speaker and a lovely community of like minded people talking and wanting to hear more about getting out there and adventuring.

[00:40:27] Zoe Langley-Wathen: There's also going to be another adventure for me and Mike towards the end of the year. Now, I'm not going to say anything about that just yet because it hasn't been announced officially anyway. But yes, we're in the planning stages of that still, and it's very exciting. And I'm sure we'll probably end up having a whole episode on its own just for that.

[00:40:49] Zoe Langley-Wathen: So yeah, there's all sorts of exciting things going on. And this is where I now need to finish with a Head Right Out moment. Okay, so I posted in my Head Right Out [00:41:00] hub, last week, I think it was, a photograph of me at the starter marker of the South West Coast Path 14 years ago. Gosh, I can't believe it was 14 years ago.

[00:41:09] Zoe Langley-Wathen: Where's that time gone? It was the night before I was starting my big walk, and I posted about how I was feeling, and about what my future plans are likely to be, and yeah, kind of what's been happening really for me over the last few weeks, and this lovely lady who's been part of the hub for quite a long time now, she posted a comment.

[00:41:31] Zoe Langley-Wathen: And the photograph too, which really resonated with me and made me feel like I am, I don't know, I'm really looking forward to my older years. It gave me hope, you know, when in your 50s, and you start getting a few aches and pains and you start thinking, Oh, gosh, you know, am I still going to carry on doing these really active things?

[00:41:54] Zoe Langley-Wathen: Well. Seriously, this is great. This is really inspiring. So Joe says, I'm well beyond [00:42:00] midlife now, 70 in a couple of years. In my 50s, I started cycling for leisure, which became a passion, not fast or furious or technical, rather getting out into nature, focusing on the journey. I always wanted to cycle camp, so I did on my own at first, as then I hadn't met others who wanted to.

[00:42:20] Zoe Langley-Wathen: I did not do mega journeys, one night away to start, and then a couple. I learned you don't have to go far or fast, or for long, to have an adventure. I gradually found a small group of friends who share my passion, and we head off together, still wandering slowly on wheels and camping along the way.

[00:42:39] Zoe Langley-Wathen: Unfortunately, public transport with bikes, especially in a group, can be challenging, but we have braved it occasionally. My overthinking, overplanning, and worrying about what could go wrong. My aim ahead is to focus on what could, and usually does, go right and relax more. There are more kind people than [00:43:00] dangerous ones.

[00:43:01] Zoe Langley-Wathen: Oh, oh yes, definitely. And that's what I found when I've been walking. And there's a gorgeous photo of Jo sat there. She's got her bike loaded up with dry bags strapped to her bike. It looks like she's taking a selfie with a sarnie. A cute, it looks like a cucumber sandwich in her hand. And I, I just spotted, I never spotted this before.

[00:43:22] Zoe Langley-Wathen: She's got a mascot sticking out of her rucksack. I think that's a rucksack. Or a bike. No, it's not. It's her bike. It's a bag that's on the front of her bike. Of course, she sat in front of it. And there's this cute little doll with kind of wild hair and big eyes. You know, like the manga style eyes. Great little doll that is, and that must be her little travelling companion.

[00:43:48] Zoe Langley-Wathen: I replied to Jo about this, and let's see what she said. I said, I love everybody. I love everybody. I do. I really do love everybody. Wow, Jo, I love [00:44:00] everything about this. You started something new at a time when a lot of women retreat to safety. There are always challenges, but looking back, I'll bet you'll see how that shaped the adventure.

[00:44:12] Zoe Langley-Wathen: I'm interested to know how you found your little group of friends, your tribe. Thanks for sharing your experience with us. And she replied, I found my little group through cycling with Breeze and chatting while out on rides. I trained as a Breeze leader and led rides for a few years, encouraging more women to overcome barriers to cycling.

[00:44:30] Zoe Langley-Wathen: I'm not fast enough, won't keep up, or I don't feel safe. You know those things. And she now volunteers on the National Cycle Network with Sustrans. I'm thankful I have a supportive husband. We both have our different cycling loves and follow our own paths and trails. Isn't that great? So Even now, her and her husband, they go off their own separate ways because they have their own things that they want to get from cycling.

[00:44:55] Zoe Langley-Wathen: And I just think that's fantastic. And that's kind of what Mike and I do. You know, we [00:45:00] love to go off and do our own thing, but we also love going off and doing stuff together too. When the fancy takes us, I guess. Right. Well, that's all for now. I hope to be back now I've got this all set up, I've got my little studio set up in here with curtain rails around the ceilings and lights and the mic and yeah, it's, it's a bit different from the boat, but it works.

[00:45:26] Zoe Langley-Wathen: Perhaps I can team it up with a blog post and an Instagram post, because I'm sure there'll be people who will want to see what it looks like and how it all got fixed together. Okay, everybody, I hope you are all having a good start to the year. I hope you've had a good 2024. If you haven't, I hope you're coming through the other side and starting to piece things back together again and thinking about how you can redirect your life.

[00:45:52] Zoe Langley-Wathen: There's all sorts of things that go on for people. You know, every time of our life, it's never perfect, is it? And so please, [00:46:00] please don't see, you know, my posts on Instagram or other people's posts on Instagram thinking, Oh gosh, it all looks just beautiful and idyllic and wonderful because trust me behind it all, it never is.

[00:46:12] Zoe Langley-Wathen: There's always other stuff going on. Remember that and there's ways and means of getting through it. So find your tribe, find a support group, get outside in nature, go and stretch your resilience or stretch your comfort zone to build your resilience. And yeah, I think I should leave it there, but head right, head.

[00:46:33] Zoe Langley-Wathen: I couldn't get that one out. Let's try it again. HeadRightOut Hugs to you all. Lots of love. Speak to you soon. Take [00:47:00] care. Mwah.

Arry Cain set off in March 2012 to run the equivalent of 40 marathons in 40 days along a brand new trail, the Wales Coast Path. She would become the first person to run around the perimeter of Wales, including the Wales Coast Path. and officially launched the opening of the Path in Cardiff Bay, as she ran her last mile of a gruelling 1027 miles on 5th May. Ten years on, Arry shares her determination, her difficulties and more about the doubters that she could even achieve such an immense challenge. The impact of some of those messages left a deep scar that was hard to heal, but here she talks to Zoe about how she feels ready to reconnect with her running mojo. Arry also retells with enthusiasm and an element of terror, some of the experiences of her other adventures, particularly cycling. Arry really knows the meaning of what it is to HeadRightOut.

 

SHOW LINKS:

Arry Cain -

Website: Website: https://dragonrun1027.wordpress.com/ (This is currently being updated to reflect on the run, upcoming adventures and everything in between!)

Instagram: @arrycain

Twitter:  @arrycain

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Dragonrun1027

 

 

Illustration -

Website: www.arrycainillustration.com

 

 

 

Where to find HeadRightOut and Zoe on social media:

https://www.facebook.com/HeadRightOut/

https://www.instagram.com/headrightout/

https://twitter.com/HeadRightOut

https://www.linkedin.com/in/zoe-langley-wathen/

zoe@headrightout.com

Music used in this episode:

Intro, outro and transitions - ‘Stay Strong’ by Caffeine Creek Band

SHOW NOTES:

To follow

FULL TRANSCRIPTION:

To follow

The stretch that should be known as 'Arry's Cliff', Llantwit Major (taken in March 2012).

 

Zoe chats with Belinda Kirk, who has over 26 years of experience in leading expeditions. She has witnessed the positive impact of undertaking outdoor challenges on mental health and wellbeing and believes that now, more than ever, adventure should be the go-to for ALL age-groups. She shares the foundations of her ground-breaking book, Adventure Revolution and the importance of having a mindset that includes comfort zone stretching in order to grow in confidence, developing long-lasting self-efficacy, self-esteem and resilience.

• Welcome back to Season Two
• Thank you for returning if you have listened before. About Zoe and about HeadRightOut. [00:37]
• Belinda Kirk introduction. [02:04]
• What is the difference between being outside and 'adventure'? 'Nature Effect' vs 'Adventure Effect'. [04:09]
• Choosing not just challenge, but uncertainty and adversity. Choosing to be uncomfortable and the benefits. Finding out what we're capable of and building resilience. [06:14]
• Belinda's personal take on the research around the impact of adventure on women in particular. [08:17]
• The importance of taking adventures at key turning points in our lives - not just as a teenager. [10:54]
• The 'invisibility' of midlife women and how they are the backbone of Britain. [14:06]
• Adventure Revolution - the book. Praise from Zoe and where it started. [15:50]
• How adventure is powerful for well-being and positive psychology. [16:47]
• Writing the book during lockdown. [19:25]
• How the book has been received. Feedback at Kendal Mountain Festival. [20:51]
• Does the Adventure Effect need maintaining? How? [22:14]
• What Zoe calls 'Microbravery'. [23:53]
• What's in Belinda's resilience toolkit? [26:26]
• Using the word 'failure' - a correction to reframe the definition and use it more positively. [29:03]
• If adversity and risk is good for us, how do we effect change? [31:47]
• Belinda's HeadRightOut Moment [37:01]
• About the Adventure Mind Conference. [38:55]
• Where to find Belinda. [40:41]
• Zoe's reflection on her conversation with Belinda. [42:01]
• Karen Wood's HeadRightOut Moment. [44:23]
• Next episodes coming up. Solopisode, Abhejali Bernardova, Siobhan Daniels and Jo Bradshaw. [50:38]
• Update on the Out-Out episodes. [52:16]
• Request to follow, rate and review the podcast. Request for listener's HeadRightOut Moments. [53:29]

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Karen Wood - a 'Cold Water Bobbing' HeadRightOut Moment in the sea at Sidmouth.

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• Cold Water Success on Sidmouth Beach
• Karen Feeling Happy After Her Cold Water Bobbing

Zoe talks to the inspiring Ursula Martin, who has built resilience and confidence over the years simply by realising she has to get on and do it - whatever that 'IT' is. She shares many powerful messages and despite the enormity of her challenges, Ursula is humble and profoundly honest to the end. She talks about how she doesn't want to be treated as a hero just because she walked over 3000 miles around Wales, following a cancer diagnosis, or over 5000 miles across Europe. Zoe struggles to comprehend the stories of the absence of visible pilgrims on the Camino, while Ursula shares her experience of reaching an empty Santiago, solo. Her retelling of the way her body handled her primal emotions on returning to Wales after two years and nine months, walking and surviving, is utterly gripping, animated and so full of joy, you could almost have been there. Ursula is candid and shares practical advice about how to apply lessons learned on the trail to simply get on and face difficult tasks, undertake an adventure, or stand your ground with fear, head-on.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  00:15

Hello, and welcome to this the tenth episode of HeadRightOut, and the last episode of the season, I can't believe it.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  00:25

My name is Zoe Langley-Wathen, and today I'll be talking to Ursula Martin, who has built resilience and confidence over the years simply by realising she has to get on and do it. Now while it's a longer than usual episode, it's also INCREDIBLE. Do listen to the end, because she shares powerful words, right to the very last. "Trust your strength of will." She talks about how she doesn't want you to treat her as a hero just because she walked over 3000 miles around Wales, or over 5000 miles across Europe. We all have an adventure in us, and no matter how big or small it is, it's probably more about confidence and self-belief than it is about ability. I'm also going to reveal news about multiple giveaways that I have in store for you to mark the end of this amazing first season. So, let's get into the conversation!

Zoe Langley-Wathen  01:36

Today I am with the inimitable, Ursula Martin.

Ursula Martin   01:41

Hello.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  01:42

Hello, Ursula! Well, Ursula, I am going to have to just dive straight in and read your very brief bio, because this is such a snapshot of who you are and what you've been up to for the last few years. It in no way describes what you've REALLY been through, and that's what we're going to dig into, once we get into our conversation.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  02:06

In 2011, at the age of 31 Ursula was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. She later spent 17 months walking 3700 miles around Wales, raising money and awareness of ovarian cancer. Since the walk Ursula went on to write a book about her experience, and it was called One Woman Walks Wales. Fast forward to 2018, and she set off to walk 5500+ miles across Europe, from Ukraine to UK, via Spain. Ursula completed her epic, EPIC solo journey on June 6th 2021 In Llanidloes, mid-Wales.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  02:51

Just take a deep breath there, my goodness. Every time I hear something about One Woman Walks, or Ursula Martin, there are all of these words, these adjectives that come into my head... and I'm sure they're probably not the adjectives that you would use to describe you, Ursula? So one word, one word just straight off there - how would you describe yourself? I'm just interested to know.

Ursula Martin   03:18

I don't know, one word is just 'stubborn', I guess.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  03:23

Oh, I'm so pleased, you said that. I'm so pleased.

Ursula Martin   03:26

I mean, that can summarise all the activities in one. It's not adventurous, it's stubborn.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  03:26

you said.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  03:36

Brilliant. I just threw that in there, I hadn't planned that one at all. When I was looking over your website, and just reading up a little bit more about you, obviously, I've been following you for quite a few years, but I just wanted to make sure that I had all of the information that I needed. I read on there that you described yourself as being 'confused and disorganised', and I'm thinking that just doesn't come across, at all. And you say you might feel that, but for me, I just see somebody who has such a lot of perseverance and tenacity, and strength, that you just inspire me. And I know you inspire huge amount of other people out there.

Ursula Martin   04:19

I think part of that is my problem with writing bios about myself. I just really hate it. I don't like saying good things about myself, and so I usually try and be a bit kind of subversive and just say, 'Hi, I'm really crap, this is what I've done'. And then and let it speak for itself.

04:36

You know,

Zoe Langley-Wathen  04:37

A lot of us struggle with that, and I know, some of the guests that I've had on have had an issue with that as well. It's just like how do we 'big up' ourselves and it's not really about bigging up ourselves. It's just about being honest, isn't it?

Ursula Martin   04:49

It's marketing isn't it. It's sales and marketing. You can do anything, just go off and do it and you can describe that in one way. But when you're also trying to tell people about it, that's a different kind of skill altogether, and actually, not everybody who can go and climb a mountain can also tell a good story about it and get people interested in it. You know, it's lots of different skills all at once.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  05:11

Yeah, masses of skills in there. So let's go back to, was it 2011, you had your cancer diagnosis?

Ursula Martin   05:21

Yeah. Was it 2011? No, it was 2012.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  05:25

Was it, okay?

Ursula Martin   05:26

Yeah

Zoe Langley-Wathen  05:27

Okay,

Ursula Martin   05:27

Sorry.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  05:28

No that's okay. The year of the Olympics. And so, which came first? The challenge that you used in the face of that cancer diagnosis, so that challenge that you decided to head off and walk? Or did you already have that Ursula-style adventure mindset? I'm kind of using 'adventure' loosely, but is it that doggedness that I want to do something I want to be outside? Yeah, what came first?

Ursula Martin   05:55

Definitely, the mindset came first. I mean, in a way, what I've done since the cancer has just been a continuation of a path that I was already on, except that it just got much bigger, much more public, and much broader challenges. I think there are lots of ways to end up in a place where you are doing physical, you know, let's use the word adventure, even though I don't really like it. To be an adventurer, you can be a very physical person who loves sports, and loves physical challenges, and goes into ways that are an exploration of your physical capability, or different ways that I have actually come about it are more kind of... countercultural is not the right way to describe it. But in this way of seeing the way that life was supposed to be, as in, you're supposed to go to university, you're supposed to succeed, you're supposed to get a nice job and a mortgage and whatever and not wanting to do that. A rejecting of that, and pushing boundaries in all kinds of different ways, like behaviourally, and you know, there are all kinds of different ways in which you can push yourself and open yourself. And so I have a lot of friends who are heavily involved in festivals and parties, and there's a lot of exploration of boundaries and sense of opening yourself up to questioning your ideas about the way the world should be.

Ursula Martin   07:23

So there I think adventuring is also a way to do that by saying, 'I'm going to go and sleep on the ground, outside'. And so all these people are going 'no, we're humans, we have houses and blankets and comfortable things. We don't give up our structured, safe way of life'. And then you go, 'but no, I can go and sleep on the ground. And I can not know where I'm going to sleep that night. And look at that I'm still okay, and safe and comfortable in the world'. And that's an exploration for me. That's an exploration of behaviour, expectations, and boundaries. Through that, which is something that I question and like to do in my life, I've come to physical adventure, as a way of doing that.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  08:09

So you've actively sought out not conforming to what those expectations are?

Ursula Martin   08:15

I was unhappy that I had to let go of things, and really I started doing that when I was about twenty-seven or so, twenty-five or twenty-seven. Just letting go of stuff. And the thing that was my first adventure was in 2007, or so, and I've done all kinds of things like hitching across Europe in 2007, or taking six weeks off work and just hitchhiking into Europe and doing this big circle into... I went to a couple of festivals in Germany. I went to Berlin for a week, and then went down into the Balkans. I went to stay on a farm in Croatia and then hitchhiked home, and that was six weeks, and that was this exploration of letting go of control of the future. Actually, the way that I kind of came to this was by the time I was twenty-eight, I was working in homeless hostel in Aberystwyth. This is 2008. I didn't enjoy the job, it was getting to me was getting me down a bit. I started to do a counselling training course, but I'd always been involved in social care, like as a care provider, not as a higher level social care stuff. I started to do this counselling course, as a move-on option. I realised how messed up I was, because that's what you have to do when you do basic counselling, is you have to look at yourself and I realised that I just needed to go travelling. In this real cliched kind of way, like 'what even is travelling?' What I started to do was explore spontaneity and letting go. I think that when you try and control the future, a lot, you're not trusting yourself that you have the ability to exist in the future, in a spontaneous way, and so not consciously, it's not like I had this plan set up of how I'm going to change become a better person, but I kind of went 'Yes, I'm going travelling' and I was twenty-eight.

Ursula Martin   10:02

The first few things I did were WWOOFING, volunteering on organic farms in Wales and in the UK.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  10:08

That's called woofing?

Ursula Martin   10:09

WWOOFING, yes. If you've heard of it, you're not surprised by the word. But then if you haven't...

Zoe Langley-Wathen  10:13

I hadn't heard of that, I know about volunteering. But yes, I hadn't heard that term and I love it!

Ursula Martin   10:19

There's HelpX as well, that's another one, and it's basically it's it's volunteer work, but usually on farming or alternative creative projects. So it was three years before I got diagnosed with cancer after I went off and started travelling, and at the start of that three years, I was arranging volunteer projects in advance. And at the end of that three years, I kayaked down the length of the River Danube, and I had no idea where I was going to live at the end of it. I literally got off at the harbour side, in Varna, I ended up Varna in the Black Sea, and I had no idea where I was going to go and what I was going to do. To me that's success, because I had succeeded in coping with spontaneity and letting go, basically. So that's what I was doing before I got cancer, and so the Welsh walks since are a completely different expression. They're not a new thing for me, for sure, but they're just a progression of what I was doing before cancer.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  11:19

But that's amazing that spontaneity and discovery, that journey of discovery that you were going through, without you even realising was setting you up maybe, to be dealing with what life was going to then throw at you with that cancer diagnosis. You were so young to receive that diagnosis. Nobody expects to be given that. A lot of people do like to travel or take a gap year or whatever it is in their twenties. Not everybody does it. There's evidence to say that those people who do do it, it builds their confidence. It builds resilience and strength. It sounds like that's certainly how it's helped you. But the fact that then you've realised you need to continue that journey of discovery, afterwards. I think that's what's so compelling for me to know about, is that you've just extended it and extended it.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  12:16

When you were when you were either considering a journey or planning a challenge, were you facing any barriers, within the thoughts about what you were going to be doing, where you were going to be doing it, how you were going to do it? I mean, there might have been emotional barriers; there might have been physical barriers. Did you stumble up against anything like that, that you thought, 'Gosh, how am I going to get over that?'

Ursula Martin   12:36

Not sure. I seem to be this great believer in that you can achieve anything you want to be if you put your mind to it. It was amazing. Because the preparation for kayaking the length of the Danube, I didn't really have loads of money. I mean, I had like, four or five grand in the bank, something like that, like, minimal, really. And that's it. That's all I had in the world. So there was this question of where do I get a kayak from? And how do I source it? And how do I transport it to Germany where where the river trip is going to start? So I could have bought a kayak for brand new, and have it shipped there for a grand you know, for like 25% of all my money in the world, I could have got a kayak to Ingolstadt. Or I could have rented it, which to me made no sense either. What I ended up doing was finding a kayak for sale online in Northwest Germany. And then there was this question of, well, how do I get it down to southeast Germany. I ended up hitchhiking with it.

Ursula Martin   13:36

With a kayak. With this kayak. It didn't come with a trolley so me and my friend, we went skip-diving, and I pulled out the framework - it's so inappropriate for a kayak because it was the framework of like those old ladies' pull-trolleys. So it was the back of one of those and the wheels were about four inches across, if that. If you know anything about transporting kayaks, you know that that size of wheel is useless, because the wheels go in the centre of the kayak. So as soon as you lift the kayak off the ground at one end, the other end dips down so it actually depends on the height that the wheels have lifted, the kayak off the ground to allow for the amount of room that it can tip. What that meant was I could only actually lift it about three centimetres off the ground, and then all of the weight of the kayak was was in my hand. Completely awful. Just ridiculous. But basically the moral of that story, the point of that story, the thing that freed me in that situation is that you can be constricted. You know you can have a situation in which you solve with money and it saves you time, but if you have unlimited time, then you can also solve the same problem. So I did go into a skip and get a stupid pair of wheels and ended up dragging the kayak to these service stations. Then it took me five days to hitchhike the length of Germany, which normally it takes about a day. But I got there.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  13:36

With a kayak?

Zoe Langley-Wathen  14:04

You got there, and you got there off the back of your own resolve, and creativity, and that actually is probably far more rewarding than putting your hand in your pocket and just buying your way there.

Ursula Martin   15:20

Yeah,

Zoe Langley-Wathen  15:21

You've learned so much about yourself and about the world... and about skip-diving!

Ursula Martin   15:27

Yeah, it's a complete liberation, because all these ways in which you feel like you are restricted, usually aren't, you just need to readjust your boundaries a little bit. So if you think I can't possibly go and do this journey, I haven't got enough money, you probably can you just do it, like a tramp, instead of like, you know, whatever. So that part of it, I would say, that sounds like that's a success part of that story. But actually, I face constant boundaries, in how much I believe in myself. I don't think I ever go into any of this, in this really strong, confident, forceful, like, 'Yes, I'm totally capable of doing this'. It's more like, I really want to do this. And I think I'm just going to do it. I'm just going to try it. Or I'm just going to have a go or I'm just going to do it no matter what. And even though I'm like, not necessarily physically the most capable person, or financially, I don't have big backers, I don't have lots of money behind me. There's this kind of scratching, like finding a way no matter what, but that is coming through huge boundaries, all the time of self-confidence and self-belief, and all kinds of things are stopping me all the time.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  16:41

Yeah, I was just thinking, because I've actually written down here about how you appear to be very confident, and particularly around travelling solo and hitchhiking solo. You've obviously talked a little bit about where that's come from, but now I'm what I'm hearing is that there is potentially (and I've never really thought about this), but potentially a difference between confidence and self-belief or self-efficacy. It's that belief in yourself to be able to carry this off, and I think now, as I'm processing this, that that is different to confidence. Would you agree with that? Because confidence can sometimes appear to be a little bit out there and not abrupt, but almost arrogant? And I'm not suggesting that you are coming across as arrogant. But I'm almost thinking that a self-belief is much more sensitive to a confidence, if that's making sense.

Ursula Martin   17:35

I think so I definitely think a person can appear confident, even when they don't believe in themselves. Because I think for me, there's always this 'sod it, I'm going to do it anyway. Even if I'm crap and shit'. So one of the things that I realised in this counselling training, was that it was really important for me never to fail, and that's why I wasn't trying. There was this day, where there was something to do with this piece of homework that I was supposed to hand in. I gave it to the teacher, and she'd really brushed me off. She was like, 'thanks', and I realised that I'd created this situation where I'd had the opportunity to hand it to her and have it be mundane, and I hadn't. I'd kept it, and I'd waited until this moment where I was going to present it to her and she'd say 'thank you', and it would be like this moment. And she really blocked it because she was a trained counsellor, and she had sensations of what was going on. At that moment, I was like, that wasn't right, like, what did I do that for? You know, and I realised that there were these ways of performative success or something that I was very keyed into about kind of never been wrong or not failing. I think one of the things that I try as hard as I can to be is completely okay with failing. That also combines with this thinking, I'm crap all the time, and then spending years trying to hide being crap, and actually, I'm just going, 'I AM really crap. I'm doing it anyway'. Then that gives you this kind of ability to just go out and let that again, it's this letting go. I think that does come across as confidence. And it is confidence as well. Like, I am just going to go into a situation and 'let's just have a go at it' type of thing. But in that is simultaneously, the lack of self-belief. Just be crap. Just be crap at it.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  19:22

You know, there were so many messages in there. As a teacher, I spent years trying to encourage high achieving girls, that they could fail, because there were many of them.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  19:33

Almost, some of them would not even give something ago because they were SO fearful of getting it wrong. Even to the point where I had a student who was potentially an A* (when it was back A* it's not anymore), but an A* student in my subject and she had a mock exam and she got a G. It was like really, what is going on here? And you know, we had about four months I think between that time and her actual exam, and she did end up getting a B, which was amazing. But you know, there was a lot of talk and a lot of encouragement that was needed in that time. Some of that stems from her family life, where she just felt she was under pressure to succeed in everything, and she couldn't. Or she felt that that was unattainable. And said 'well, if you know, if I can't attain perfect success in everything, then sod it, I won't do it at all. I won't give it a go'. So yeah, it's a big, big issue. And I'm really, really pleased that you brought that up.

Ursula Martin   19:34

Right, right.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  19:39

So can you think of a time then where you doubted your resilience? So you've obviously got that resilience there, and you're carrying it through with you now, but has in any of those journeys, that you've been on - Wales, or walking across Europe, and we'll talk about those in a bit more detail in a moment - but have you had any moments where you have doubted your ability or your resilience to cope with something?

Ursula Martin   21:00

To cope with something?

Zoe Langley-Wathen  21:02

And it might not be, you know, resilience? Gosh, you've got emotional resilience, haven't you? There's physical resilience. So it could come in many different forms. But were you ever in a situation where you were just going 'do you know, I really just can't do this anymore'.

Ursula Martin   21:20

Well, I have made decisions to change. So in the Pyrenees, for example, I was supposed to be doing the Haute Route. It's the hardest traverse in the Pyrenees, east-west traverse, and there was early snow, I had a couple of days where I was basically taking hours to climb a thing that should have taken an hour. Falling through snow, like ice bridges type-thing. Like snow, on top of, I was on a boulder field, basically, and it was covered in snow. So every step you would go down into your thigh or you would stay level. It was not only dangerous, but it was exhausting, and time-consuming. I went up and over a pass and then supposed to go straight and I came down to a mountain hut, I made the decision to go down and then come up again into the mountains. Because the only way was up and over more snow. For a couple of well, no about a week, I kept willing myself to go back up into the mountains, and then it would always come to it. And I'd go 'no'.

Ursula Martin   22:19

I was disappointed with myself for not making the ultimate attempt to do something that was as hard as I could. But I kind of also recognise that that's a fallacy, and in some ways, I think that I have very carefully created for myself a style of journey, which means that my resilience, like there is no success or failure within my journey, I could have walked the whole thing on road. I would still have walked across Europe and I would still have the success story. Or I could have planned every single mountain in my path. Also, the other thing is just there was no time limit on what I was doing. And nobody else was doing it. So there's no race. And there's no competition. Within all the ways in which I created this journey, I can actually be as tough or as not tough as I want to be. And so I was kind of gutted in myself that I didn't go up into the mountains. Also, it was fine. I was still in the Pyrenees, I was still at one and a half 2000 metres. I just wasn't above 2000 where the snow was, you know, and I'm still climbing easier mountains, and sleeping outside and blah, blah, blah and walking ten-fifteen miles a day. So in that sense, I tested myself, but I also never, I think I gave myself that ebb and flow of being able to cope. I have made a public journey, which has got me acclaim. As soon as anybody else does the same thing, they'll do it quicker than me. So in that sense, I've allowed for this ebb and flow of my own kind of resilience and patterns of coping or not coping and, you know, letting it go.

Ursula Martin   23:56

There's never been like, I mean, obviously, there have been catastrophes, like your tent breaks in a rainstorm, or you see a bear, or you drop one of your walking poles, and you have to lever yourself down a mountain to get it or just, you know, there's all these things that are like, okay, I might die here, carry on, you know, succeed or fail or die. Somehow, those kind of things don't test my resilience because you have to concentrate so hard. You just do it. And there does come a point in some of these situations where your eyes are like staring out of your head because you're concentrating so hard, where you've accidentally you know, got yourself in a situation where you're clinging to some trees to kind of get a bit back on the path or whatever it is. My resilience has not come to breaking in that kind of situation, because you're like, well, either I do this or I die. So get on with it.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  24:50

Tell us about one of those stories then Ursula.

Ursula Martin   24:53

I mean, the easiest one is the bear just because that's very contained. That was the question of thinking that you're calm and then slowly realising that you're not calm at all. It was in the mountains in Bosnia. I'd come up into this, I think it's like, the Zelengore mountain range, in southern Bosnia. It was about a five day run with no shops or, you know, taken loads of food and I'd gone up and put my tent up, and I was just about to get in it, and I heard this kind of clicking noise, nearby. I looked up, and around and over, I don't know, thirty metres away, but on the other side of this kind of big, bold depression thing, so not thirty metres away in a straight line, you know, for it to get me, standing on a ledge was a bear.

Ursula Martin   25:40

I was like, okay, so all this thing, you know, it's like, what have you read on the internet about what to do when you see a bear? So I remembered all things. The first thing you do is gently make the bear aware of your presence. So I waved, and I went, "hi, Bear. A human is here". And I was like, "Oh, hi. Hello". And then the bear just turned and looked at me. And then and just turned and went. But what the amazing part was, was that it was like this Mexican wave because the bear was, I would say, I was over here. The bear looked at me and then dropped and left, but behind it came two children, baby bears., who both did exactly the same thing. They looked over where the mum was looking. Then they looked to here and then they dropped and left. So it was this one-two-three of beautiful flowing movement of amazing animals. Like, alright, okay, right. Okay. Okay. Okay. That was a bear. The bear's gone. Is the bear in the facility. No, the bear is not in the vicinity. Right. Can I see the bear? No. Okay, well, what do I do? Yeah, what right? I get in the tent, I suppose. And I got in the tent. And then I'm like, What am I doing? I can't sleep here. Can I really just like lie down on the ground and go unconscious in a place where I've literally just seen a bear? My mind was just racing was like, is it going to come back? What do I do? Dah da lah la.

Ursula Martin   27:07

And I just started talking to myself, because that's what I do, when I'm very under pressure. You talk and you talk yourself through that situation. So I'm like, okay, the bear knows where I am. The bear, come back. Yes. Should I be here when the bear comes back? No. Okay, pack up the tent. So you pack up the tent. And then I'm like, okay, just go down the mountain. But I'm going down the mountain. You know, if you'd said to yourself, if you'd asked me, at the time you say Ursula, are you calm? I'd be like, Yep, I'm fine. I've seen a bear, but it's no problem. And then I realised, like my eyes, they're pointing at my head, like about two inches. And I was so full of adrenaline. And it was just, it started to get to twilight, and I was coming down this, like rocky kind of bit. I had to really make sure that I was very careful about my footing and staying calm and not, you know, just I couldn't run down that mountain. It was a bit of a climb, like a bit of a scramble in places and, and I was like, okay, the sun is setting. I'm still in bear territory. But what the hell am I gonna do? I'll just put this tent up and sleep. And so did I put the tent up, and that was the first time that I've put - you're supposed to put your food outside the tent, basically. So I've put my food outside the tent.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  28:14

It's a bear bag, isn't it? I think, yeah. or a bear canister.

Ursula Martin   28:17

Yeah, a bear canister, but I didn't carry one of those, because they're very big and bulky. And heavy. And anyway, bears just run away when you... well, in my experience...

Zoe Langley-Wathen  28:27

I thought you were gonna say he just turned around and waved back. Oh, wow. That's an amazing story. That is well, yeah. Yeah. And, yes, there was no crisis there. But at the time, it was, yeah, a moment of like, realisation.

Ursula Martin   28:45

In that moment, you have that possibility that you curl into a ball and freak out and do nothing. And you, as a person on your own, have to force your brain to do the right things to get you through that crisis. I guess that is resilience, and the thing that confused me with that question is asking me for, like one example. But really, in an endurance challenge, you know, in what I did, the resilience is day after day after day. And I kind of talk, I think about it sometimes as in like being your own gym coach. So I'm simultaneously the person who's lying on the floor exhausted, and the person who's screaming in my own ear. And so that's, whenever I get to, I get to the end of a day, and you just want to go 'Oh jeez,' and you have to go. 'Put the tent up, get warm, look after your body temperature, eat something, drink some water, get in that sleeping bag, then collapse'. That's the resilience. That's the small resilience every day. You know.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  29:47

I know that. I do understand that. Yeah, gosh. Well, it sounds like you were making some very sensible decisions as well, regarding the Haute Route. You know, you said at some point you felt perhaps like you're a failure or or that you had... but then you had given yourself that freedom to not be failing, because you were making up your own rules. It was your journey. It was your own criteria. There were, there were no rules. And so yeah, so it was probably a very sensible decision coming down and walking the lower route. Again, with the bear, you know, you made a decision there. Your head's, going through all the what-ifs, and I guess you're mitigating all the possible risks, aren't you at that point? Because that's what we do, because we have to keep ourselves safe. And yeah, I think in that situation, I'd have probably done a similar thing.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  30:42

I don't know, was staying there an option? I guess it IS option, but I think I probably would have gone down. Then like you say, it's, it's twilight, so is because it's twilight, you're also putting yourself at risk of slipping, coming down that rocky descent. It's amazing.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  31:00

So can we talk a little bit more about your walk across Europe? Yeah, I mean, that's your obviously your most recent journey and you've just returned back in June. I had the honour of walking with you a couple of days before you returned to Llanidloes, and that was a treat just to walk and talk with you and just, I don't know, feel some of that presence that you carry online. And this is going to sound like I'm a 'fan girl'. It's like, yeah. immersed in the aura of Ursula Martin!

Zoe Langley-Wathen  31:33

You know, I've been obviously communicating with you for many years now, and it just felt like such an appropriate moment. I'm living in South Wales, you're returning to mid-Wales. We both love to walk. We both appreciate being in the outdoors. It just felt so appropriate to come and walk with you. Just to be with you in those moments before the madness of returning. Because it was a big moment, coming back, wasn't it? Yeah. Let's take you back to the very start of your Europe journey. How did you get from Wales to Ukraine? I know there's something there that is quite special to you.

Ursula Martin   32:16

Yeah, I hitchhiked from Hook of Holland. Really, I started hitchhiking from Llanidloes. I got a lift off a friend and then it didn't end up working. So I've got a couple of trains across to the ferry and really hitchhiked from the ferry.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  32:30

Yeah.

Ursula Martin   32:31

So from Holland to Ukraine. Yeah. Hitchhiking is a really important part of journeys to me as well, because you know, it's not necessarily this physical challenge. But it's also an adventure, and it's again, it's this coping with the unknown, which that's kind of a key part of what I call a challenge, a growth opportunity or a state of transition into a new sense of self. Hitchhiking is really important in that for me. So I hitchhiked to Ukraine to Kiev.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  33:02

Then coming into Kiev. You had a particular meeting with a guy that took you over the border.

Ursula Martin   33:13

Yeah, Igor, my first Ukrainian guy. So I talked about this in my talk the other night, which was a very cute moment, of him, basically him picking me up and saying I can't take you across the border because he was scared. It is this kind of hangover of communism, probably, you know, or excessive state oppression. As in. I don't know who you are. And I can't trust it's not okay. And so he was he said, I don't know who you are. I can't take you across the border. And then the journey went on for so long, and he was driving this tiny little kind of chugging VW van. At one point, he's just stopped and he started rubbing his eyes. And then he just keeled over and like, slept with his head on my leg. I was in the passenger seat just just like, okay, all right. Are you sleeping? Are you sleeping? Okay, you're just gonna sleep on my leg? Alright, fine.

Ursula Martin   34:07

It was really sweet. And then we got to the border. And I was like, Do you want me to get out? And he said, No. And we just looked at each other. And it was just this real little bonding moment of he slept on me, and then we trusted each other more, and then we carried on together into Ukraine.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  34:23

Massive trust, massive trust.

Ursula Martin   34:25

Yeah. Yeah, I don't know you do. I think people are more scared of hitchhiking than they should be, because there's a real bonding to just being in a car with somebody. And people say it about counselling as well don't they? When you're in a situation where you can talk without looking at each other.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  34:42

No eye contact? Yeah.

Ursula Martin   34:43

Yeah. I've heard that said about different styles of counselling where that can actually help people to communicate better, or to unload better. I have heard so many amazing life stories while hitchhiking, just beyond anything and it's a very intimate space. You bond and connect and, you know, you eat food together sometimes and especially lorry drivers because they're just used to being on the road, and this is their life, and essentially, you're invited into their house. So there's an immediate comfort in it, and relaxation. I think people don't appreciate that until they've done it a lot. Because it's all like, is this person gonna kill me? You know? Yeah. And it's not, it's not. Most of the time. It isn't about that at all. That is, that is what we've been conditioned to believe, isn't it to hitchhike? Because x, y, z might happen, and I think I'm very much of that ilk. Yet, it sounds so liberating, and it makes so much sense because I used to get the best conversations and the best information and the best offloads from my teenage daughter, when she was sat in the car, next to me, and we used to have the most amazing conversations then.

Ursula Martin   35:53

Yeah, so much less intense.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  35:55

Yeah, definitely. Definitely, and walking-talking, you know, when I've been on long distance walks, and I've met people, and we're just talking and walking, again, in the space of a couple of hours, you know, you've heard somebody's lifestory. And you're like 'whoa, how did how did that happen?' But yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So how many countries did you then pass through? So you've reached Kiev.

Ursula Martin   36:16

I reached Kiev, and I wanted to walk back home, not the direct way back through Poland, but I wanted to go and visit Bulgaria and the Balkans, because I had a lot of love for those countries after my Danube journey. I also wanted to go through Spain, because I also spent a lot of time in northern Spain about ten-eleven-twelve years ago. So it was a case of revisiting, I suppose, in a way but also just going to places connecting the places that I love. So it ended up technically, if England and Wales are separate, it was fourteen countries.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  36:51

Sorry, did you say fourteen then?

Ursula Martin   36:52

Fourteen, yeah. Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia, Croatia, Slovenia, Italy, France, and Dora, Spain, England, Wales, fourteen. Probably thirteen, really?

Zoe Langley-Wathen  37:10

You can count England.

Ursula Martin   37:11

I know I'm going for fourteen.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  37:13

I would go with that as well. Gosh, so yeah, you've met a lot of people in those places. You've experienced incredible landscapes, severe extremes of weather, I'm assuming. Can you recount any...?

Ursula Martin   37:29

Well, the first winter was in Romania, so it was actually the month of December was the hardest, because it had a very severe Siberian cold-snap. So there wasn't any snow, but there was frost. And I think the coldest night that I slept in was -14, in that period. Then fortunately, I went and had a winter Christmas break in Bucharest, and then when I came back, the snow had fallen, and it was heavy snow, but warmer, probably more like -5 to -10 at night, which is obviously still hard, but...

Zoe Langley-Wathen  37:57

Hawaiian!

Ursula Martin   38:00

-14 was a shock. Because I didn't have a good enough, I didn't have over the Christmas break, I'd got a heavier sleeping mat. So the -14 was really at the limit of what my equipment could cope with that night. And it was it was a very intense cold. I don't know how to describe it, I guess it's experience as well, because if I'd had the right equipment, -20, would have been an intense cold, you know, and I've had that experience at -five as well, when you're like, it just goes once it's kind of below about minus four, it starts to be serious business. You know, it's not like, I can just sit here for a couple of minutes. It's like there's a pressure to it, cold. There's an intensity of, there's a penetratingness to it. It's a slap.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  38:47

Did you struggle with it?

Ursula Martin   38:48

I don't like and I don't enjoy camping in snow.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  38:51

No.

Ursula Martin   38:51

It's hard work, and you have to be very careful camping and cold temperatures, you have to be careful all the time. And so especially when you're also dealing with that exhaustion that I was talking about, where in the summer or the spring-autumn, you can sit down for a few minutes before you put the tent up.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  39:10

Yes,

Ursula Martin   39:10

Even more so in the winter. It's like you have to do this right now. Because if you don't, you're going to spend two hours dealing with your lack of body temperature; your lowered body temperature.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  39:20

And you just can't get it back up again, then my guess is you've got to...

Ursula Martin   39:23

 It's just that it takes longer. So every every bit that you drop, you are then going to be less comfortable in your sleeping bag for longer, while your body creates that temperature again, that you just lost. Yeah, yeah, you know. So I mean, you can do it do sit ups in a sleeping bag. You know, that's, that's basically the way to do it.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  39:42

Was that something that you learnt, again, by experience, rather than by research?

Ursula Martin   39:47

Yeah, pretty much. You know, I don't think it's the best. You do research as you're going but I don't think you CAN imagine every eventuality. You do learn kind of, you know, you left your neck uncovered and look what happened. That's what you're gonna do again. Your nose is getting cold, I knitted myself a little nose warmer.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  40:07

A condom for your nose!

Ursula Martin   40:09

I had a little string around there. I didn't use it all that much. But you know, there are these things of like, you know, you can read online about condensation in a tent.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  40:19

Yeah.

Ursula Martin   40:20

Until you've really kind of lived with it and dealt with it, and how does your breath affect the way the, what fabrics are around your face as you're trying to sleep? And how to cover and how to uncover. It is experience, you know, you do have to go out there and try it. Just don't go out at -14 for your first night out. Go out at zero and then go out at -3 and ease yourself into it. And that's how you learn. Just trying it. Just having a go. Because otherwise you're trying to absorb ALL the information about ALL the potential things that might happen. And you're worrying about whether you're in control of every single eventuality. I don't work that way. And you're doomed to failure, because you'll always be thinking, is there something I haven't covered before I get out there? Actually, you just need to get out there and do it, and you will learn and you probably won't die.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  41:12

That is gold. That is absolute diamond advice? Yeah, because the more you research, and I'm guilty of that, the more you research, the more you over-plan, the more you overanalyze, the less likely you are to go and do it. Because you are now thinking, I've got to sort this, I got to, you know, make sure I've got that in place. Yes. So, no,

Zoe Langley-Wathen  41:34

And what if there's a monsoon? And what if there's, you know, and like, I like the fuzzy logic kind of sense of preparation, as in I'm kind of pretty much aware that I will probably cope with whatever happens to me. I have it within myself to make good decisions in that moment. I've shown myself that I do, over and over again. So even if I've got wet kit, because I didn't keep everything in five dry bags inside my rucksack, I'm going to be fine. But a lot of people are stuck in that sense of armour, and that's not my thing.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  42:09

Important message, thank you. So you've moved through these countries, and you're communicating and connecting with different cultures, different people, making some really incredible connections, I would imagine. I mean, I was at your talk on Sunday in Kington, and there were some very moving moments there where you shared connections you'd made with specific women. Then you move into an area or, not an area, you move into a time that you hadn't planned on, that nobody could ever have planned for. And that's when you reach Italy. I hate to mention it because I know a lot of us are trying to avoid this conversation, but you walked, you were having to walk through a lockdown. And suddenly you're thrown into a sense of panic, I would imagine? No people, but how did you deal with this? What was going on in your head? Yeah, how did it pan out for you?

Ursula Martin   43:09

There have just been so many stages to the pandemic, as we've all experienced. You know, the growing concern that something was very wrong. The realisation that we couldn't avoid it. The complete fear and anxiety about a massive shift in societal behaviour. And then the fighting of you know, is this the right thing to do? What is the right thing to do? I think globally and as individual countries, every government has been working that out, as nobody had a proper plan for this. No, we've all been flying by the seat of our pants globally, structurally and individually. And so yeah, be oh, well, I basically have been intensely vulnerable during the pandemic, because I'm homeless. I was homeless in Italy during a pandemic, I was a tourist. But it was a very particular unusual type of tourist who was walking and sleeping in forests and sleeping outside.

Ursula Martin   44:07

But what happened was, I basically made it into France, two, three days before their lockdown happens, and managed to get a friend's sister's holiday home to stay in. So I did have a safe place to go. About 200 kilometres away on the train, I was incredibly grateful to have that, and I was there for three months of the first lockdown. I was so alone. The hard part of the pandemic, for me was intense vulnerability, and intense loneliness, and basically having to rely on having no safe place. You know, you think you can go off travelling and test yourself, and then all of a sudden shit hits the fan, and it gets even harder. And so I definitely struggled and suffered with loneliness during the pandemic, especially during that first lockdown. I did keep on walking. There was always this decision about what are the rules here? Is it safe? What am I going to do? How do I keep walking, you know, in some ways, I'm actually a very low risk person. Because I was walking alone. I'd spend most of my time five nights a week sleeping outside, and I'd go into a B&B one or two nights a week for a day off. I'd go into bars and restaurants, but I wasn't mixing with people.

Ursula Martin   44:07

So the short version of what happened is that I was walking across northern Italy, during January, February. And in early March, Italy was the first country that went into lockdown. I didn't know what was happening, and I wasn't able to easily get somewhere to live. To stay. I wasn't able to go into a house or a hotel in Italy, and I was so close to the border, and I just thought I'm gonna walk across the border. So I had this seven, I can't remember seven or ten days of feeling like a fugitive, and just being so worried about what was happening. Walking out of Italy in that time, it just felt apocalyptic in some ways. I kept walking on all these closed roads, where the roads were like sliding away down the mountainside. Then I walked, the last village I was in was this ski resort village. So everywhere was close. All the houses are shuttered and closed anyway, and they were in mist, and I was like walking through trying to get out of the country and just feeling like our foundations to society were shaken. For everybody, I think. In terms of how do we interact, and what do we access, and where does our money come from all these really fundamental things, affected everybody. And so I was feeling all that fear, with nowhere safe to go as well. So it's very intense for me.

Ursula Martin   46:43

For me, there was this constant assessment of my behaviour of, okay, I'm doing this thing called travelling, which were not supposed to do. Well, nobody could come from England into France to do what I was doing. But I was already there anyway. And people could drive from Germany to come and be tourists. There was this constant kind of, there was no easy answer about, yes, you're doing the right thing. No, you're not. Are you legally allowed to do this? Are you not, it was so many rules were changing all the time. And I just basically walked when I could, and stopped when I had to. And it was really hard. It was really hard at times. Over the summer, I walked through South of France. So that was the other extreme weather temperature was up to, you know, 35 degrees in the south of France in full summer heat. That was a completely different temperature and climate shift to cope with, you know, making sure you're hydrated and don't get sunstroke and stuff. And then I came into the Pyrenees, and that was in the autumn. That was when their cases had kind of dropped over the summer, and then they were starting to rise again in Spain and France. Did the Pyrenean Traverse, and then there were, well it's funny because I say there were loads of infections in Spain at that time. But actually, since then, it's infections that felt like a lot, then, and now we have much higher infection rate, and we seem to be treating it as if it's no big deal. So it's bizarre because there is never actually any time to pinpoint a time in the pandemic, where we understand it, what was happening in terms of what's happening now, because everything has really been shifting in terms of the amount of fear the amount of regulations and the amount of infection. And so it was all very particular to a point in time. I can't define it now and have us understand it because I was shocked that there were one in 1000 people had Coronavirus in La Rioche in that time, but actually, one in 1300 people in this country have got Coronavirus right now, and we're treating it like it's no big deal.

Ursula Martin   48:44

So that yeah, it's hard to give it definition now in a way that we understand what was happening back then if you still I mean.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  48:50

Yeah, there's no previous benchmark to follow, because it's just hasn't happened.

Ursula Martin   48:55

Everything was so reactive to what was happening in that moment. And basically I went into a second French lockdown for six weeks, and then I made the decision to enter Spain. Walked across the top of Spain. It was January, February, March, by that point. There was more snow. I was on the Camino de Santiago which had virtually shut down because of the lack of international travel.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  49:15

Which route were you on Ursula?

Ursula Martin   49:17

I walked the French route to Finisterre and then I walked the Primitivo and the Camino del Norte, back to Santander. I had a third lockdown in Ponferrada for a month, the month of February I had a third lockdown, because Galicia was very, very closed at that point. And so it was just this case of like not giving up on it, basically. It was this real, you know, I guess at that point, you really see how much the journey means to you. Because you're not going to give it up. You're going to stay by hook or by crook. I got to Finisterre basically, and I suffered and struggled to get there, with the emotional intensity of the pandemic, in addition to the physical intensity of walking thousands of miles and camping and you know all the journey strains. And then the bloody pandemic, the anxiety of the pandemic, on top of that was so intense. It was so intense.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  50:11

I can imagine. And I've walked the Camino de Santiago. I've walked that with Mike in 2016, that was our honeymoon... our HoneyWalk. And it was just so full of people. We both said it was the most sociable walk we have ever done. And you know, every time you come into a town, there are people sat around the tables, outside bars and cafes, and they're cheering you, as you come in. And I can imagine all you had was tumbleweed. The proverbial tumbleweed, just rolling through each of these towns and villages as you pass through. I've walked it with you, in my mind in my memory, because I was imagining all of these places as I knew them. And what you're experiencing was not a Camino that anybody I think has ever as I experienced.

Ursula Martin   50:58

There were others on the Camino. It's just that I didn't see them. I followed a guy's footprints in the snow for three or four days. Because the way the weather was very particular, it snowed and froze, and then stayed below freezing for a week, day and night. So this guy's footprints were frozen in the snow.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  51:18

Oh, amazing. So it was like you were chasing him.

Ursula Martin   51:22

I was trying to catch because I wanted somebody to talk to.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  51:26

Did you?

Ursula Martin   51:27

He had these very particular boots, so it was I knew it was always him. And they were big feet as well, so probably a guy. So there were other people. I don't want to give the impression that I was the only person on the whole Camino. I was the only pilgrim I met. But there were others. It's just that instead of having in the depths of winter, thirty to fifty people sleeping in each town each night, you probably had about five people on the entire route.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  51:53

But you see to me that IS empty. That's just not natural for that area. The last 100 kilometres, particularly this year, which is a Holy Year. 2021 was the Holy Year wasn't it for the Camino. And so it should have been even more full than usual. But that last 100 kilometres, people get bused in just to walk the last 100 kilometres. So you can guarantee that last few days of walking the Camino, there's thousands of people and it's like a motorway, it's so busy, and I just can't get my head round how that must have felt for you. Can you describe how you felt as you walked into Santiago?

Ursula Martin   52:34

I felt really sad walking in Santiago, because I imagined... oh I'm gonna cry. I'm gonna cry again. Because I imagined what it would be like with loads of other people and you'd have this, where you'd be part of a wave of the joy of arrival and this push and this peak of exhilaration, and there wasn't anyone there. It was just me and I really felt the lack of it. But in other ways, walking the rest of the Camino was kind of weird, but also normal, because I'd been on my own for the whole journey, and I'd expected and wanted other pilgrims. But when they weren't there, some parts of it, were just, I'm just back in the mechanics of walking alone, and this is normal. I had really wanted that challenge of being around other people, almost to bring yourself down from this kind of 'solitary hero' sense of it. Because I do wish I'd have that kind of grounding in other people's challenges as well. So you're not kind of carried away with your own heroics all the time, it would have been a challenge for me of how to compare my journey to others. With something that's so huge and so extreme, and how do you find the similarities of challenge and transformation in what other people are experiencing? Even though for me, it was a very easy section.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  53:49

Yes. Yes. Yeah, physically.

Ursula Martin   53:51

So I missed that. I missed other people, and I felt yeah, walking in Santiago was just massive. And an anti-climax all at once.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  54:01

Yeah, I feel that. It's an experience that you'll never forget. You'll carry that with you for a long time. And one that not very many other people will have experienced doing that empty.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  54:11

I'm going to fast forward you to the UK now, because by extreme contrast, your experience of Santiago and moving on to Finisterre, you did reach Finisterre, which is we should explain to some of the listeners that maybe don't know about Finisterre is the coastline, the far end of the Camino.

Ursula Martin   54:33

The Atlantic Ocean.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  54:34

The Atlantic Ocean, yeah, amazing.

Ursula Martin   54:36

That was massive, to arrive at the ocean, from Kiev, and to know that I talked all that way. It was just... that was my kind of mind-blowing achievement moment of this ultimate, 'you've walked as far as the sea, all that way across the continent and you've always been heading in this one direction. And now you can't go any further and you made it', and there was the sea, you know. Wide, wide wide open. It was fantastic. It was really fantastic. There was that was a real achievement.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  55:10

And that's yeah, that is like nature's recognition to you, and every time you look at a map, you must go, oh, my gosh, I've walked that.

Ursula Martin   55:17

Yeah, just once it gets bigger and bigger, you're like, 'look at that!'

Zoe Langley-Wathen  55:23

And don't you have a different relationship now with physical maps, because I know, (when I used to have a kitchen), I used to have a huge map of the UK on the wall. And every time I'd walked a different route or a different path, I would feel differently towards that area, and that map. You know, that association with people, places, feelings that I've had that I didn't know that, do you find that that?

Ursula Martin   55:50

Yeah, I guess it's just all your memories are contained in that route, aren't they? And you know it and you've been there and yeah, yeah, it's interesting to go to do another walk where I haven't been, you know, because now I've come back to Wales, and I know, I know Wales intimately. And so it's very comforting and I can really relate to all so much of Wales, because I've walked it so intensely. Yeah. And I'm hopefully planning to do another walk starting in January, which is going to be Land's End - John O'Groats. And actually that's going to be really nice to explore England and Scotland, where I haven't really walked before. Things like the Cotswold Way the Pennine Way, the West Highland Way. All these places that I haven't walked before, yet I know them culturally. And, you know, I know the imagery, but I'm going to explore them. I'm going to explore my own country and I think that's going to be really exciting.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  56:42

Yeah, and that will connect you even deeper to yeah, those places and...

Ursula Martin   56:46

My country.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  56:47

Your country. Yes, you were born in England?

Ursula Martin   56:50

I was born in Wales. My country is Britain. I sometimes I split myself. I am neither Welsh nor English, really. I'm culturally, English, and then, yeah, the Welsh and I don't know. So I just I tend to say I'm British. This is my island.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  57:08

The contrast then between walking Spain and then reaching the last few days of your journey. Coming back to Llanidloes. Can you just talk us through those moments those, those emotions? Yeah, what was going on for you there.

Ursula Martin   57:27

It was physically very difficult. I started to be in a lot of pain after Finisterre, and it never really went away. Because every time I stopped, I was resting, but I wasn't resting, and I just had lots of pain in my legs and feet, and my back, and my shoulders, and it hurt everywhere. It just didn't seem to stop. So I had all these stops starting parts of the journey where I couldn't get a ferry until a certain point. They weren't open to foot passengers. So I had more time than I needed to walk back from Finisterre to Santander. I could go like eight to ten miles a day, but actually, you were still putting in kind of 75% of the effort for 50% of the distance. So it didn't actually work. And then I had to wait in Santander and then I had to wait for the quarantine. But somehow I didn't, my body didn't rest and relax. And so when I started again from Portsmouth, I was in a lot of pain, physically but somehow I just pushed through it and was so focused on the end.

Ursula Martin   58:34

I was meeting lots of people at that point, I have lots of people for the first time in the journey, I had loads of different people coming out to walk with me. So that was this kind of hyper sense. I think I got more and more keyed up in a social sense, being happy to see people and chatting and I'm really interested to see how you feel I was on that. It was kind of two or three days before the end. Because I was so tired but in so much pain but somehow still functioning I don't know. How do you feel about how I was functioning?

Zoe Langley-Wathen  59:06

I got a sense you were more than functioning. I didn't see pain. I know we talked about it, but I didn't see it. You didn't look like you were in pain. You were, you were tired. I could see you were tired and I could see you were emotionally tired as well. And I got a sense that was, although you were being buoyed up by the amount of people that you had been walking with, I think you are also feeling quite drained as well. Because walking for so long with such little human contact, and then suddenly you're having to give of yourself to everybody so much, all the time and talking to them, I think yeah, I got a sense that perhaps was hard. Apart from being tired. I just sensed that you were on this even keel and that is how you always appear to me Ursula you always... whether or not inside, you are kind of up and down, up and down or paddling furiously to try and keep yourself, you know, and your emotions and whatever's going on. Actually, you just always appear to be this stoic force that just, is just a quiet strength, a quiet strength. And that is how you came across.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:00:22

I will never forget the moment where we're walking over the Radnor Hills, and I'm talking to you about, you know, my fears, and particularly of heights and walking up the side of Pen-y-Ghent, actually scrambling up the side of Pen-y-Ghent, and how I dealt with that. We had the views, we all stopped and looked at the views. And we had the Beacons one way and we had the mountains of Snowdonia, in another direction. You were able to stand up there and pinpoint all of these areas. And that was a very special moment, because we were sharing that together. But then you said to me, Zoe, how would you have dealt with that scramble up the side of Pen-y-Ghent, in the wind and the rain and dealing with the heights if Mike hadn't been there? And I went, 'Yeah, you're right. I'd have just got on with it'. And, you know, there wasn't drama, but there was a lot of drama going on inside my head, and I think yeah, probably there would have been less drama had I been on my own.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:01:20

So anyway, I digressed slightly there. But yes, that was my experience and my snapshot of that day. And it was a very, very special day, which I felt honored to be able to be part of that.

Ursula Martin   1:01:33

No, don't be honoured. It was it was really lovely because of everybody who was there. Yeah, it was just a really nice group.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:01:39

I don't know if it was concocted. I don't think it was but in my eye, this was complete coincidence. I contacted you because I wanted to walk with you, and unbeknown to me Hannah Engelkamp, who is Seaside Donkey for those people who don't know, on Instagram. She walked around Wales with a donkey a few years ago, and also a friend of mine, happened to be walking with Ursula that day. And in addition, it turns out that my other good friend, Arry, Arry Cain, who ran around Wales in 2012, was the first woman to run around Wales. She was also walking with you that day. So there's four of us together, and it was the first time I've met you face-to-face. But I still felt like you were a friend of mine. You know, we had that connection. We had been communicating for quite a few years on whatever social media it was. And then we had your uncle and auntie, and they just kind of brought us all together. I mean, they're just a breath of fresh air, and it was so lovely to walk and talk with them, too. So it was a beautiful group. Amazing that we had so many connections, and that we all walked together on the same day, and that it felt so peaceful. It felt like it didn't have the hype of somebody else, maybe joining the group that was a follower or a fan. And I do that in air quotes that might have been maybe in your face a bit more. It just felt so normal and natural, and it's just like, Yeah, we were going girls on a hike. You know, it was lovely.

Ursula Martin   1:03:13

It was a really great day. Yeah. And that was just was really nice. I felt, I guess I think I would say spaced out a lot during that time. Because I don't know, it's like being on the surface of a balloon or something. I guess I just felt so stretched, thin. And I was still able to do it all, but I knew I couldn't do it for much longer, and I wasn't going to have to and that's when you can start to feel like you're going to collapse. Yeah, it's so like a hallucinatory, you know, like when you've stayed up all night kind of feeling and you're just...

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:03:47

Whoo, space cadet...!

Ursula Martin   1:03:49

Stuff will happen to you, and you'll talk about it and it's fine. You're, you know, you're functioning. But you're also really not only half on the planet.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:03:58

Yeah, half present. You reach Llanidloes, and what a moment. I mean, I almost wish I had been there. I couldn't make it. I forget now why I couldn't make it. But oh my gosh, the photos and the sound, the videos. Talk just, yeah, just talk us through those moments.

Ursula Martin   1:04:17

I mean, that's why, I mean, it really was starting, it was already happening, that very slow buildup of emotion. What had happened was, that for that day, I had been able to say, I'm going to be starting at this point you know I can't remember how far twelve or so miles away from Llanidloes at this time, and then whoever wants to come can come and join me. And there were other points where people could come. So about, I don't know, six or seven different friends came to the start of the day, and so there was a train of people, and more and more people kept coming in and at one point, this really good friend of mine came walking towards the field, over the field towards me, and her and her boyfriend were carrying this set of bunting on two sticks. And they walked beside me for the rest of the journey, so I was walking underneath this train of flags. And then more people waiting on the side of the track, and it just became this kind of procession going down into the town.

Ursula Martin   1:05:16

And I could feel this, like, it was like the kind of emotion where you're where you start speaking in tongues, I could feel I was gonna lose it. Because I was just so like, whaaaaa. It was this build up, build up. And I didn't know what was going to happen. All I knew was that I wanted to walk up the centre of the main street. I'd said, I will be there at this time, and I had no idea who was going to be there, or how many people and we came around the bottom of the market hall. And there it was, this moment of, I was there, and I just shouted, so loudly. And it was absolutely brilliant. Because that was the truest again, letting go. And just not being embarrassed to shout or swear or just lose your shit, basically. I just lost it all the way up that street, and I was just shouting and like, yeah! Just pointing at people that I knew and just like 'you are here!' and just this complete burst of celebration, and it was just so good. It was everything. It was all it could possibly have been, you know that first shout really came, you know, deeper than my pelvis. It came from my boots. The whole of my body was able to handle that force. I didn't suppress it in any way. All of my body participated in bringing out this huge shout of joy and force.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:06:44

It looked like such a burst of energy. It was, oh, it just catapulted from you. And it looked really primal, from what I could see.

Ursula Martin   1:06:55

Yeah, it really was.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:06:55

And the photographs captured a burst of energy that came out beautifully. What a fitting celebration as well, for how many years were you on the road? In the end? Or on the path?

Ursula Martin   1:07:07

It was two years, nine months.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:07:09

Two years, nine months. And you had gone through so much. Up here in your head, and physically. Yeah, there's there was so much that you've been through and with the pandemic, adding to that as well then to have that very fitting celebration, and you deserved, totally deserved all of those people to be there and just cheer you in. I'm so pleased that you had that. So pleased.

Ursula Martin   1:07:37

Oh yeah, it was wonderful.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:07:38

Wonderful.

Ursula Martin   1:07:39

It was a wonderful day.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:07:40

Oh, well, Ursula, we are coming to the end of our conversation, now. To be honest, I mean, I could carry on for another hour listening to you, because I don't normally have quite so many questions written down on the page. But I have SO many here, and maybe it's something one day, we can come back and have a second conversation, because you have so many amazing stories to share. And we obviously only have a certain amount of time, which we can fit it in!

Ursula Martin   1:08:08

It's interesting. That's what I realised, when I gave the first talk just a few days ago about the walk, is I've almost done too much stuff to talk about. So there is a change of style now, where I can get more abstract, if you see what I mean. To where you are talking about motivations and coping skills rather than I climbed this mountain. I climbed that mountain. Do you see what I mean? And I think there is the ability to move into a more abstract sense of, you know, a different conversation.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:08:37

Yes, yes.

Ursula Martin   1:08:37

Where it isn't the story of the journey anymore.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:08:39

Yes. People want to hear the story of the journey, but yeah, definitely the focus of HeadRightOut is always going to be about well, how did you face these issues, these barriers? Or how did you achieve that particular outcome, despite going through X, Y, Z, whatever it was, you went through?

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:08:57

There is one last question Ursula, and that is the question I ask everybody. I'm collecting HeadRightOut Moments. I'm wondering, have you had an experience, a moment where you can recount that you have totally and utterly headed out of your comfort zone, but you have succeeded... or not? Because success is, as we've discussed, it doesn't matter sometimes if you fail, because failure is only you know, the limitation that you give yourself, but have you experienced a benefit as a result of heading out of your comfort zone? Because that's the message that I'm trying to get across to other midlife women? Yeah. Is there something that you can pinpoint as your HeadRightOut Moment?

Ursula Martin   1:09:40

Yes, it's not necessarily going to fit in with the adventuring story, but actually, it's life modelling.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:09:46

Okay,

Ursula Martin   1:09:46

Because I've been I've been a life model. I think I first did it in about 2008 or so. I've done it at various points, and I've always been a fat person at the same time. So there was this real, like, shame and embarrassment about my body because it's not perfect, you know, because it's not thin. And life modelling was this huge way for me to be comfortable with my body, or to become more comfortable with my body. But that moment where I just was like, I'll see if they want a life model. Yes, they did. Okay, what time you want me to turn up, I turn up, and I go behind the curtain, and I'm like, Holy Shit!

Ursula Martin   1:10:26

I'm gonna take my clothes off in front of all these people! And I just was like, behind this curtain, I just had this moment of like, you well you said, you're gonna do this. And now you've got to do it. And, you know, I just went out there. And then the moment you actually are naked in front of people, nothing matters, it doesn't matter at all. You're just, you're just a body, and you're not the worst, you're not THE most unattractive person, there's ever been in the world, because that's what my brain is telling me all the time. As I say, there's this sense of complete normality about it. And so that I'd say is one of the moments where I have really pushed through a fear, and then found out that everything was fine, on the other side, you know.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:11:08

Liberating, and I've done hours, many, many hours of life drawing, and really appreciated the models that weren't just stick-thin. There's so much more to give, and so much more to draw and to appreciate, in a fuller figure. Yeah, I can totally see where you're coming from there, and I would be fearful, but I could also see how liberating that would be too. Thank you, thank you for sharing that. I wasn't expecting that at all. I was thinking it's gonna be like, you know, stepping out of the tent when I thought there was going to be a bear there!

Ursula Martin   1:11:45

Oh I have myriad life experiences, not all of which I share at the same time.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:11:51

Brilliant. Ursula, where can people discover a bit more about you if they want to come and search and investigate and buy your book? And this is your book of Wales, and you are currently in the throes of writing your new book, as well, so well, we'll watch that space. But where can they find you?

Ursula Martin   1:12:11

So I'm mostly called One Woman Walks on everything. onewomanwalks.com, is my website, and then it's the same on Facebook and Instagram. On Twitter, I think I'm One Woman Walks Wales, but you can find me. The website's the main place. There's all the blogs from the whole journey from the whole Europe walk, most of the blogs are still on the website. So it includes things like kit lists, if people are interested in that. How I dealt with plantar fasciitis is quite a good one, just loads of stuff. And then all the, you know, the lovely stories about people that I've met and different experiences, and so on. So there's plenty of reading material - or they can wait for the book.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:12:48

Everything from landscape to people to stop. And everything in between.

Ursula Martin   1:12:53

Yeah!

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:12:54

Is there anything Ursula that we've not talked about, that you would have liked to have had the opportunity to mention?

Ursula Martin   1:13:01

I would, I just think that disconnect between how I come across and how I am on the inside is really something that I would emphasise, you know, I'm really not actually all that confident of a person. And I definitely was not originally, before I started all this, I was very flawed and broken, you know, not mentally healthy. And I have shown myself what I can do. And that has built confidence within me, because I'm more certain of myself. And what I can endure. A lot of people want to put me separate to them as in, I could never do what you do. And that's not, if it's all in your head, then that's not true. Because I have got out there and done it. And that's nothing to do with, I don't know if that's my strength of will, basically. So it is accessible to many more people than they realise, and don't put me on a pedestal or don't make me different. Don't make me a hero, because I'm not.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:14:00

Wow, that's I've actually I've got tears in my eyes there. That is such a passionate message, and I thank you. Ursula Martin, thank you so much for coming on HeadRightOut. I hope we'll get an opportunity to have a conversation again at some point soon.

Ursula Martin   1:14:17

Thank you, it's a pleasure. Thank you for having me on.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:14:26

Oh, yes! What an episode to complete the series with. I could listen to Ursula for hours. Her voice is soothing, it's calm, and yet his stories pack such a punch. She has such a great way of telling them, don't you think?

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:14:48

Now I'm not sharing a HeadRightOut Moment with you this week. But I do want to let you know that right here, I will be heading right out of my comfort zone on Friday. When hopefully, I get to do my ScarySkyDive - eeeek! That will appear during the coming weeks as a bonus outdoor episode. I also spent this last weekend just gone doing a two-day navigation course with the South Wales Adventure Queens. And so I'll be creating another bonus episode, from the hours of content that I've recorded with some amazing women.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:15:26

Now the name of the outdoor episodes was put to a vote. And while I ended up with lots of suggestions, which I thank you for, the out and out winner was, and you'll see what I did there in a minute, HeadRightOut Out. I'm not just HeadingRightOut, I'm HeadingRightOut Out. I love it. So thanks to Sharon Merredew, for coming up with that winning name. And I'm going to be popping a t-shirt in the post to you, Sharon as a thank you. I know you didn't expect that. I know I didn't advertise I was going to do that. But I have a spare t-shirt, and that's what I'm going to do.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:16:05

Now, I'm taking a six-week break between Series One and Two, to allow myself time to record and edit more quality content for you. And I also have a move back to the boat to do. Mum's potentially moving back home from respite and exciting, I'm due to become a nanny, imminently. So I need to make sure that during this time, I am fully present and available for all these massive personal events that are happening.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:16:37

So I hope you'll understand. HeadRightOut will return on Wednesday 22nd of December, just in time for your Christmas listening. So if the Christmas movies are all repeats, and it all gets a bit much for you, you can just sink into some HeadRightOut Podcasts and take yourself off to another place.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:16:58

Now lastly, before I go, I have a fabulous range of giveaways to share with you. I'm afraid these are UK-based only however, so please don't enter if you live abroad. I have first off, Nahla Summers' book, The Accidental adventurer, and that is what we talked about in Episode Nine, the last episode.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:17:25

I also have Julia Goodfellow-Smith's book, Live Your Bucket List - that's from Episode One. Do go back and listen to these episodes, if you can't remember them, or if you haven't listened to them yet.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:17:36

And I've purchased Ursula Martin's book, from this episode, Episode Ten, One Woman Walks Wales. I've also got a copy myself, which was gifted to me by Ursula's auntie, and I'm looking forward to reading it.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:17:53

There are two technical T shirts with HeadRightOut, and if you take a look on the website, in the shownotes, you will see pictures of all of these items that you can win. It will also be on my Instagram stories, and it will be on my Instagram grid.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:18:11

So here's what you need to do. You need to hit the Follow button for HeadRightOut in your podcast app. Then come back to Instagram and comment below with 'DONE' and the name of the platform that you listen on, then tag a friend... e.g. 'DONE', I follow on Stitcher and the name of your friend 'Josephine Blaggs'. Sorry, yeah, I made that one up.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:18:32

Make sure you're following my Instagram account too, to ensure I can see your comments. That really helps. Winners will be picked randomly after the giveaway closes at 9pm on Wednesday, 17th of November. You can state in the comment if you have a preference of prize, but I'm afraid I can't promise to honour that, because it just depends on what's left. So good luck with a giveaway. Remember, you have to enter it to be in with a chance of winning something. So please, please, please enter and please continue to tell your friends about the podcast.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:19:05

HeadRightOut is just fifteen downloads away from the first milestone of one thousand! That is so exciting for me! Have a great few weeks. Enjoy the HeadRightOut Out episodes, when they land and don't forget, keep doing the things that scare you. The things that you didn't believe you were capable of. You ARE capable of so much and your head will thank you for it later. I promise. That's the nature of type two fun.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:19:33

HeadRightOut Hugs to you all.

Self-described as a ‘blind optimist’, Nahla cycled 3000 miles across America, despite not having owned a bike in twenty years and walked 500 miles the length of England, relying only on the kindness of strangers. In 2020, she made a world record by travelling 5007 miles on an ElliptiGO bike, through every UK city, in the middle of a pandemic. At the same time she was creating the biggest Strava art in England that spelled out the word, ‘KINDNESS’. Nahla's unique selling point is that she completes these challenges, asking for people to pledge an act of kindness for a stranger, rather than sponsoring money to a charity. Founder of the Sunshine People and a Culture of Kindness, Nahla has built up a strong following, inspiring others to use kindness to effect change, worldwide. Her profound experience of kindness during a period of deep grief led her to build her resolve to ensure others, at both a corporate and social level would benefit from kindness too. She has learned how to face fear and difficulties positively, by changing her mindset and encourages everyone to work on their self-belief by telling themselves, ‘I am enough’. Her new book, The Accidental Adventurer launched on November 1st 2021.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  00:14

Hello, and welcome back to HeadRightOut, the podcast that is here to encourage you to step out of your comfort zone and do things that scare you on a regular basis.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  00:26

My name is Zoe Langley-Wathen. I'm a writer, speaker, midlife adventure seeker - ooh, that rhymes. I'm a teacher, an artist, long-distance walker, plus a daughter, a mother and a wife. There are so many things that we all know we are, and there's so many more things that we could be. I wonder how many things you've wanted to do, but have never quite managed to get your head round doing them. Because they all feel a bit daunting or a bit big. Perhaps you think a bit TOO big for you? But believe me... they're not.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  01:08

Today, I have an amazing woman that's come to chat to us. Obviously, this is all about inspiring you to head out of your comfort zone, do something that scares you, and I think that this person is the most ideal person this week to talk to us. Nahla Summers is just an incredible woman that I've been following for years now and we actually had the pleasure of meeting up about eighteen months ago, and we had a great conversation. She is going to talk to us about her adventures that she's been on and what she does.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  01:45

Hello Nahla!

 

Nahla Summers  01:50

Well what an introduction and oh, I hope I meet the criteria of that. But thank you so much. That's ever so kind of you.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  01:59

I am just delighted that you agreed to come on the pod. So I'm going to read a bio for you Nahla. This is something that I think just encapsulates who you are, what you do in a nutshell, and then we'll kind of dig down into that a little bit more and just tease out some of the things that we both think are going to be of particular interest to our listeners.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  02:19

Nahla Summers is a cultural change consultant, award winner, author, public speaker, podcaster and the driving force behind a culture of kindness and '44 Rays of Sunshine'; it won the most inspirational book in 2017. Her story and how she overcame adversity has been inspiring businesses and people around the world. Nahla is the founder of Sunshine People, the social movement that inspired her to carry out yearly adventures to highlight the power that kindness has to transform societies. She was awarded a Point of Light Award from the Prime Minister for transforming the concept of sponsorship. Nahla cycled 3000 miles across America having not owned a bike in 20 years, she walked 500 miles from South to North England, relying only on the kindness of strangers. And in 2020, she made a world record by going 5007 miles on an ElliptiGO bike through every city in the UK, in the middle of a pandemic whilst also producing the biggest Strava art in England by writing kindness across it. Nahla's unique selling point is that she completes these challenges and asks people to show their support by doing an act of kindness for a stranger, rather than sponsoring money to a charity.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  03:36

As the founder of the CIC, Sunshine People, every year, she takes on a new challenge, and every year, she discovers something new about the power that kindness has on people. As an author of several books, including an award winning book in 2017, Nahla is an inspiring and established speaker. Among the many messages that she delivers, she shares how we can change the chatter in our minds to allow us to achieve anything we dream of how resilience is built, and when the world gives us lemons, how we can in fact, make lemonade. How the actions of one can change the world and therefore what we each do, really does matter. Nahla gives every leader, and every person that listens to her, the knowledge that they too can do anything they wish to. If SHE can, they most definitely can.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  04:29

Wow, that to me Nahla is what HeadRightOut is all about. It's all about resilience. It's all about facing those fears and saying but if they can do it, so can I. So, where did this start? Are you happy to share some of your background to tell us how Sunshine People and how this facing fears and resilience building started, and the Culture of Kindness. You know, that's Sunshine People.

 

Nahla Summers  04:57

Yeah, it was really around understanding, and this is not meant to sound depressing in any way, but it was really understanding my own mortality and the death of my partner who I was living with at the time. When he died very suddenly of a heart attack, while he was on a charity cycle ride, he wasn't much of a cyclist, and he hadn't done loads of training, but he had gone out, on this work thing. He didn't know if he'd finish it, but he was going to go out and have a go. You know, I was dropping him off for a cycle ride and two hours later, he was calling me, telling me he thought he was having a heart attack. I think there'll be listeners here that fully understand that that grief, whether it's a parent or best friend, or somebody, you know, impacts you all very differently. But for me, it impacted me in this understanding that life can change in a moment. And while we think that we are living our lives, to all the things that we want to do, you know, I would say, Oh, I'm going to do this, at some point, you know, I wanted to foster children. And I would say, I'm going to do that at some point, and I'm going to quit this corporate job that I'm completely tied into, that I've been doing for 15 years, I could do it standing on my head. I don't really get that much enjoyment, and I don't feel it, it's my purpose in life, but I'm kind of doing it now, and I'm just gonna keep on doing it. After Paul died, that changed significantly. I'm not advocating wait until somebody dies, I'm definitely advocating taking a look at 'am I living the life that I really want to live?' There is this old, saying, if you only had one day to live...? Well, if I only had one day to live, I go to the pub with all my mates, you know, that's what I would do.

 

Nahla Summers  07:00

But if somebody said you have a year to live, would you be happy in the life that you were in right now? It's asking yourself the question, if you had a year to live that if you were in your current place, would you stay doing that work? Would you stay in the environment and the place that you are? Or would you make a change, and if you would make a change, then you need to make that change right now. Because we just don't know what is around the corner.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  07:31

That's a powerful message straight out there isn't it? I think there's a lot of people that DO get that - there's a lot of people that have experienced that moment of questioning their own mortality, because of the loss of a loved one. And I'm so sorry that you went through that with your partner.

 

Nahla Summers  07:47

But you know,this is the life that I'm in now, and I wouldn't have raised 250,000 acts of kindness, I wouldn't have met these incredible people, I wouldn't have travelled as much as I had. I would have done some travelling, but I mean, I've travelled the world three times over, researching about kindness. So while there are so many times that I think I'd just love to have him back, because it was just easy. It was easy to be loved unconditionally by him at the same time to do that means that you take away the last ten years, and the purpose that I now have from that side of things. So yeah, it's a hard one.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  08:34

You can see the joy and the benefit that you have from both sides of the story. So you know, having Paul and having the life you have now and to actually say, well, sorry, you can have one or the other, to say you can only have one or the other is so hard. But to know that a huge benefit has come from that loss, actually must be very reassuring.

 

Nahla Summers  08:59

Yeah, because it's bigger than me. See, when me and Paul were together, we lived in a little bubble. That was just me and him. There was this unconditional love between us. We didn't do a whole load of things, we just didn't. We just enjoyed each other's company, and it was very easy. And life is not easy now, but now I have a much bigger purpose that's really nothing to do with me. There's a key to happiness from that. When we make our lives about other people. There's a purpose that drives us forward as we talk about mental health challenges and all the challenges that go on for human development. When we actually realise that our lives are really meant to support each other. And whether that's going out to the community and doing things whether that's helping somebody across the road, somebody with their shopping, you know, just being part of the community around you. That's the purpose and really, that drove me down that road after Paul's death. I understand that it's not really about me and all the stuff that I do isn't really about me at all. It's about the rest of the world, and it gives us great purpose. 

 

Nahla Summers  10:10

I think so. Yeah.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  10:11

Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. So the acts of kindness, then. The sponsorship of kindness. Why did you choose that over sponsorship of financial gain, to help a charity? What was your driving force behind that?

 

Nahla Summers  10:28

You know, when Paul first died, I was in a terrible place. I was obviously crying all the time. I wasn't able to deal with it. I was talking in riddles. I was in a deep state of shock, and it got worse. After the funeral, I stopped wanting people to come into the house, and I stopped wanting to leave the house, and then it was just spiralling, really. I would call my mum, and she would always be on the end of the phone, but it was like, she never went out. I would just cry down the phone, and she would just listen, and she would just be present and say, "oh darling. I know". Because there wasn't anything that you could fix. There was nothing else to do other than listen or say all those very unhelpful things like 'oh, well, time's a great healer' and all that. Very unhelpful. If ever, you haven't  gone through grief, and you're trying to help a grieving friend, don't say that. I wasn't eating or sleeping. It was just spiralling out of control, really.

 

Nahla Summers  10:45

So we lived out in the beach in Weston-Super-Mare, in Kewstoke. We had the most beautiful sunsets, like just stunning. Me andPaul was used to going out on an evening after work. On this one particular day, I decided to go out to the beach, and there was a man on a horse doing a figure of eight backwards, you know, it was quite something and he was training the horse, along this very quiet beach - and the water goes right out at Weston-Super-Mare.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  12:08

I know it well.

 

Nahla Summers  12:09

Yeah. I mean, it's just stunning. I love it there, and then a man came up with his dog and asked me about if the horse was mine, and in those moments, you know of talking to me, I felt this lightness. Where everything in my peripheral vision had been dark, I felt that there was some kind of light at the end of the tunnel. The man went off, his phone rang, he had to go and he just chit-chatted to me about nothing in particular, gave me stories of positivity. I wasn't suddenly healed from my grief, but it did become the catalyst for me starting to change my life.

 

Nahla Summers  12:49

My mom would say I 'grieved well', and what she meant by that was, I talked a lot, you know, if I was to say to anybody, and I wrote everything down. So I wrote to Paul every day, because I had all these things to tell him. And they weren't really very big things. They were like the boiler's broken; your car got broken into, because we left a sat nav in it; I'm not sure what to do about something. And so I started to write to him, and it became a therapy and I talked a lot. Yeah, huge tip, very easy. Let's not overcomplicate the solutions to the world, and life and all the challenges that we have talking is just a huge thing. Even if you tell the same story to ten different friends go and do it, because you'll feel a lot better at the end of it. So I went through the grieving process, and after I met that stranger on the beach, it started to become a catalyst. And I started to look at people and started to think. When I went out to the shops and you know, the kindness of somebody helping me to get something from the top shelf and kindness did become very prevalent in those first months. And it got suggested that I climb Kilimanjaro, quite early on. And I thought, well, why not? I'll just do that. I have blind optimism, and only discovered the term 'blind optimism', while I was writing my latest book. I have it in spades. This kind of, 'yeah, let's do it. Let's figure it out later on'. Because otherwise, if you know too much, and you think about it too much, you won't do anything at all. You'll just be paralysed. I have blind optimism and I don't want to fight it. I'm quite happy with it. And so I did the same with Kilimanjaro. I had no idea what I was getting myself into. I raised £14,000 with the help of the company that Paul worked for, and of course, he only died at forty-four and when something like that happens, people donate, don't they? So I raised £14,000 and when I called the charity on returning from Kilimanjar and said, "what can we do with this money?" They said, "oh, no, it's just gone into the big pot." I really wanted to do something very specific for him, and so I decided that this was not our life. This was not who we were, and decided that they would start collecting acts of kindness instead.

 

Nahla Summers  15:18

It started off with just friends and family and a hobby became a life really. I can remember, the first year I did it, people went, "Oh, can't I just give you £10? It would be so much easier than than having to go out and do an act of kindness?" I'd say, "no, you got to do an act of kindness!" You know, I got a few that first year and it just rolled on. It was really why 'acts of kindness' and so that's where it started. Yeah, and of course, with acts of kindness, it's a bit like when you're collecting, if you've got an interest in penguins, for example, and everybody buys you penguins related stuff every Christmas and birthday.  Well this is what happened with me with kindness. But it was just all year round. So every meme, you get tagged in everything, people gift you books, and you know, 'oh you've got to meet this person who is the kindest person, they want to tell you stories'. And so it goes on. I became fascinated by this idea of kindness and how much we were missing it, and so it went on really.

 

Nahla Summers  16:28

Yeah.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  16:29

It's like it snowballed.

 

Nahla Summers  16:30

Yeah, yeah.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  16:32

Which is what you need, isn't it? That's what you need to actually get this whole thing off the ground and going, so how many acts of kindness have been donated, now? I guess that's the right term.

 

Nahla Summers  16:42

That's right. We're at about a quarter of a million now. So the aim is to get a million with just connecting with an organisation called Hexitime actually, and they add up volunteer hours and it's a really clever idea. I strongly advise that just out of nosiness go and have a look at them. They're very much in the social and care world, and it's some doctors that founded it. So for every volunteer hour that they do, we'll be putting that into the 1 million, which is really exciting as well. I'm hopeful that certainly within the next twelve months that we get to... or fourteen months, maybe I have blind optimism again, probably two years, I would imagine!

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  17:25

That is so exciting, and we can put a link to Hexitime in the in the show notes. Yeah, no problem. And I think actually, the whole thing about acts of kindness, you've got something that is so tangible, whereas you didn't have that with the donating money to the charity, you didn't have something did you, that you could say this is what we have done in memory of Paul, and this is helping his name live on. There wasn't anything there, but now these acts of kindness are so tangible. Not only are they helping other people, I'm a huge believer in that they help US as well. So the people that are donating the acts of kindness, you can't fail to feel good, you feel absolutely wonderful. Every time you do something for somebody else. I always encourage people to go and volunteer, particularly in schools, they always ask me, you know, how can I go and earn money? How can I go and get a job. So don't focus on getting a job. Now go and volunteer first, get some experience, you'll feel really good. But actually, it will help other people and it'll help your CV and your experience to get your job as well. But yeah, if it fills you up, and it makes you feel wonderful.

 

Nahla Summers  18:30

It should be prescribed by doctors, in terms of getting involved in community joining a social group. You know, all of that. People also misunderstand me when I talk about kindness, because kindness isn't just about the 'act of kindness', because people think, Oh, I have to buy someone a cup of coffee, take some doughnuts into work. But that isn't kindness, truly. You know, I might be doing something nice. But kindness is about standing in the shoes of somebody else, and really being present with them. Kindness is, not putting your own beliefs and thoughts onto somebody, but listening to theirs and going, 'yeah, I see that. I see where you are coming from.' It's about the gratitude to somebody - but true gratitude - not just a blind, thank you, but really being grateful for the people around you, which of course has its own impacts on you. Connection, courage, time, integrity, all of these things are built under the umbrella of kindness. I think when we focus on that, as a society, we will change all of the issues that we currently have. It sounds very bold to say that but if you look at any issue that we have: mental health challenges, environmental challenges within the world, political challenges, workplace challenges, any thing to do with something as simple as bullying. You look at the way that our politicians have a lack of empathy and understanding for the variety of people within society, a lack of kindness is at the heart of all of our problems. So kindness doesn't even just come down to those, you know, 250,000 acts. People say to me, oh, what can I do, I said, you can just be present for somebody, when they really need you, you can just be on the end of the phone, when somebody is having a bad time. And that's kindness to just be present. It's really not difficult. Educate yourself on a bigger society, educate yourself on not just the society that you live, but all of society and the challenge that, that people have, you know, from different ethnic minorities to different sexual preferences, different whatever it is, you know, it's so wide now. And, and we're allowed in so many ways to be who we want to be. But yes, but understanding. So I wanted to express that about kindness and that's important really and the ease in which we can do it.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  21:09

It's huge. That whole definition of kindness, and what you can pull out of that is massive, isn't it? And as you say, it's so important. And I think the biggest thing that comes for me from that, is empathy. It's having that empathy for other people, and understanding that we all think differently, we have different opinions, we live differently, we have different needs. People are carrying around different baggage and we just need to have empathy.

 

Nahla Summers  21:35

A Culture of Kindness and the work that I do in organisations came from this whole idea that I started from all this research that came to me about kindness. I realised it was starting to get more complex. There's a lot of values underpinning kindness, and what that really looked like, and I realised that it was just missing from workplaces. There wasn't one organisation that I had worked within that I thought, 'yeah, you're getting it right. You're bringing all these values in.' There was so many organisations that wanted to so badly, you know, they had it in their policy documents. But was it really embedded in the culture? No, it wasn't what was embedded was blame, it was so evident that blame underpins everything. So I designed a theory from a whole load research that I did with CEOs who were deemed, you know, the kindest leaders, and from there, we looked at what needed to change.

 

Nahla Summers  22:35

The thing is, with all of this, we look at stress and anxiety, we look at all these challenges that we have within ourselves. But when you look at stress and anxiety within workplaces, so often workplaces, are trying to put sticky plasters on BIG problems! They're saying 'oh god, we'll put in a Mental Health First Aider and that will fix it.' And that doesn't mean that I'm saying that people shouldn't have Mental Health First Aiders, because they should, but organisations will think 'oh, that's it, I fixed it, that's a solution.' But the solution runs much deeper than that. It's the foundations of the way that we interact, and the only way that we really do that is by bringing kindness in and allowing people to have empathy and, and talk freely about themselves and be themselves you know, without retribution. The organisations... and I use this as a great example... I ask a question to everyone at the beginning of the groups to see what comes from it, and I say, "I want you to share something that you've never shared with anyone at work." The amount of people that say, "I've got five children", or just standard life things about themselves that they aren't sharing within work, because when they go into work, they go into 'I'm this person, I'm a brand new person.' And of course, we must have roles, but to have empathy, and to stand in the shoes of somebody else, to be able to really listen, we also have to be vulnerable enough to share of ourselves. It's hugely important. So kindness in workplaces - kindness is the answer to so many of our challenges really.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  24:14

That sounds like a great job that you're doing there. So this led then into you creating an annual challenge for yourself where you could go off and test your own resolve, test your resilience, face your fears, and then bring those stories back to these workplaces and to the Sunshine People. I mean, it's all interconnected, isn't it? But you've had four or five challenges now. Would that be right?

 

Nahla Summers  24:39

Yeah, there's a few more but they were smaller, so I never really documented them. We actually did the cycle ride that Paul was on, which I don't really talk about. I climbed Snowdon, and we'd obviously done Kilimanjaro. I did a walk and I did a cycle ride with one of the foster children with me. Every year, there were pretty small things until 2018 when I cycled across America and decided 'well it's go big or go home now,' you know, I'm playing at this and you sit in the wings, don't you  and you go, 'it seems like awfully hard work.' I watch all these really incredible people pull tyres along, on their back and I think, 'wow', that seems big to me.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  25:36

Can I just interrupt there? I'm just thinking about your usual approach that you talked about earlier, your blind optimism. Did that not kick in then, when you were thinking, okay, I've got a cycle 3000 miles across America? Was it like,' oh, my gosh, that actually, this is huge', and how did you handle that?

 

Nahla Summers  25:55

So what I was, was very busy. I was REALLY busy up until that point. And I think what also happened is, and I did this across America, but you break it down. So you go, well, rather than thinking, I'm going to cycle across America, when you think of this kind of huge thing. It just paralyses you. So then I go, Okay, well, what do I need a bike so I can remember, borrowing a bike. I was working out in the Middle East at this point. So that was another reason why I hadn't done big challenges because I was in and out as the corporate world still, and I was doing contract work. I had decided while I was out in the Middle East in Dubai, I was quitting. I'd taken a couple of months, I was re-training doing some coaching work, and I borrowed a bike while I was out there that I didn't actually ever ride, because I couldn't make it work. I can't remember why. There was just all sorts of issues.

 

Nahla Summers  26:55

Anyway, I was running a little bit on the beach, you know, hard life, and I just didn't know what I was getting into. I had no concept because I hadn't cycled. I hadn't cycled with clip-in shoes. I had not cycled a road bike before. So all of these things I didn't really know, and I thought, well, it's okay, because I'll just learn along the way which you I can guarantee anyone who says they can't, that IS what happens, you just learn. So I went in, and then I came back to the UK and it was December. I'd already booked the flight. Big tip for anybody. If you're unsure about something and you're umming and ahhing, just go and book the flight for a period of time, and then you will go and do it because it's already booked. It's too late, so you'll find a way to do it. Anyway, booked flight for 1st March. I had two months. I bought the bike six weeks before I was due to go out, from Gumtree. It was completely the wrong bike to get. It was not a touring bike, it was a road bike and the roads that in America are brutal at times. But it was a bike, it pedalled me forwards. You can always think back and say, well, people did this without maps. You know, people did this without all that stuff that you can get nowadays. So you kind of go with this, well, it will just work out and and you are just going to propel yourself forwards.

 

Nahla Summers  28:30

We live very cosy lives, right? We've got all these wonderful things around us. But that wasn't always the case not that long ago. So you can have very, very little and still survive and still be okay. And the kindness of strangers when you're on these challenges as well, will propel you forwards and keep you going. So yeah, blind optimism has followed me. I've been blessed with it. But we can all have it if we choose to. We can all have it for sure.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  29:00

Yeah, that's fabulous to hear that, in that you found a way. You found a way that works for you that gets you through some of these difficult times or some of through some of these plans. I say plans loosely plans.

 

Nahla Summers  29:14

Loosely, yeah, very loosely I would say. Yeah, it's an idea... barely, and then I just do it. Yeah.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  29:24

I love this theme that's running through now. 'Loose plans.' Well, I have something to ask you. I guess now because although I would like to talk about the challenges a bit more, I actually would dearly love to talk to you about your new book. Because by the time this lands in podcast world, your book will have been three days launched, so this is very exciting. Would you like to tell us what it's called and a little bit about where it comes from what it's about. Share!

 

Nahla Summers  29:56

It's actually named The Accidental Adventurer. Now, this is not because I've had any accidents. It is because I became this kind of accidental adventurer. Year-on-year ,I started doing these things. After I cycled across America, I did the 500-mile walk and then the ElliptiGO. Then just as I'm nearing the end of writing this book, as people may have been able to hear, I don't usually have a lisp within my speech. But I do at the moment, because I've broken my jaw and I have a lot of metal in my mouth. And so had an accident about four weeks ago, as I was training for my latest world record. That was a twenty-four hour world record on the ElliptiGO. So I feel like I tempted fate with The Accidental Adventurer title. But it was too late, I was stuck with it.

 

Nahla Summers  30:47

But yeah, within the book, it's very much sharing the stories, the incredible people that I met, and it talks about really how we can all achieve whatever we want to. Not just in adventuring, but anything that you dream to do, you can do it, you have that capability within you. I wouldn't say it was a big 'rah, rah, you know, this is what you've got to do to do it.' But it's very much a storytelling book of that journey of pulling yourself up from the living room floor, really and saying, "actually, I need to live." I'm hoping I'm selling it really! But yeah, it talks about all the adventures and goes through it. And I will say that this has been my hardest challenge. I wrote this book, and it was 120,000 words, it was a big old book. I sent it to Lindsey Duncan, the editor, and she was incredible. She wrote six pages of notes, and it was a rewrite, really. I was sad, you know, sad for a while, just just for a couple of days. But it's okay, you know, you're sad, and then you pick yourself up, right? You go, "what am I going to do about this?" And so I started. She was absolutely right, every note that she made was absolutely spot on. So I started working my way through the notes and started to change the book. We've now got a 60,000 word book that is completely rewritten. And you know, I'm very proud of it. It's been an incredible labour of love, and would not have been the book it is today without Lindsey's support, I'd love to say it's just me, but it's not really. And then Laura King did final edit, and actually all of the Sunshine People, all the stories, all the people I've met, I couldn't put them all in the book. But you know, it is for all of those people, and it's very much written for the reader. I dedicate the book to the reader because it IS written for them and for the Sunshine People that continue to support with their acts of kindness.

 

Nahla Summers  32:59

Yeah,

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  33:00

It's exciting. It is such an exciting project and yeah, like you say it was a difficult time as well. I was fortunate enough to have a pre-launch copy, and I'm 65% of my way through, I've been reading it and devouring it, and it's got some amazing nuggets in there. I always talk about these pearls of wisdom and these nuggets, but it's just littered with it all the way through and you think oh my gosh, yes, I can apply that to my own life. There are moments where you know, you might be sat in a heap outside a cafe in Northampton, having this complete and utter 'oh, my gosh, I can't do this anymore' moment. But then for the reader, yes, we're definitely able to come back to applying that to things that are going on for us. I can see where I could carry on when things are difficult. I could go those extra, was it three miles, you had to go? Yeah, there was actually something that I wanted to talk to you about that it's so it's about pushing yourself through when you reach moments, like that moment outside the cafe in Northampton, where you're just like, 'no, I can't do this!' how do you pull yourself through it and carry on? What do you draw on? What do you dig out to get yourself to a place where you can go 'right Nahla, give yourself a big kick up the butt and get on and do it?' What is it? What magic do you have?

 

Nahla Summers  34:23

Yeah, it is about the choice, and you may not have gotten quite there yet, but a dear friend of mine, Scott, who is really just a go-to person for me. I was in a bus stop in Leicester and I thought about what I'd written. I'd written kindness across England. I'd finished that. I was going to do the last 500 miles in a heart and anyone that knows me knows I'm not too worried about the accolades, as lovely as they are, I love them. But you know, the world record, it's just it's a thing to talk about kindness. And so I was about to do this heart to get the final world record, and I thought, you know, I just, I've had enough, I just don't want to do any more, I'm exhausted, I'm tired. I was 4500 miles in. the weather was turning, and I sat in this bus stop, and I thought, I don't know, what I'm going to do. There's nobody about. COVID was ramping up. I really was on a time... time was ticking.

 

Nahla Summers  35:26

I called my friend, Scott and he said, "well, you've got two choices." He said, "you either sit there and do nothing and go nowhere. Or you take a tiny step forwards and do something to go somewhere." And that was it. You know, that was a summary. And although I got that message from him, you know, in this beautiful way in this conversation with him, that was really what I took forwards with me throughout all of the challenges in many ways. Because when you're kind of doing it, you say well it's a choice, now you're either going to stop and do nothing, and let all of that. All of where you got to so far, you're going to let it all go, which means that the purpose wasn't strong enough for you, quite frankly. The purpose wasn't big enough. Or you're going to keep going, and you're going to go the extra three miles, and maybe you'll take a break for a minute, but you're going to keep going and pushing forwards. So for me, it was all about that. It was always, I didn't really have a choice. Either I sat there outside that cafe in Northampton, and did nothing. Because I couldn't get a lift, there wasn't those options to do that. So yeah, it was kind of you have to go and do SOMETHING.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  36:44

I love that. A tiny step forward, you can either do nothing, or you take a tiny step forward. And yeah, that is so relatable to life, isn't it?

 

Nahla Summers  36:52

Yeah.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  36:53

I also liked in the book that you suggested that there are times where people will give you ideas about things to go and do. Challenges to go and do and that somehow you're able to allow them to live through your adventures, because there are people that simply can't go and do what you are doing. But I'm wondering, is there anything that anybody has suggested to you to do? That you've actually thought, 'no way?!' There's absolutely no way on this earth. I'm doing that.

 

Nahla Summers  37:24

Do y'know, no, not yet. So, the only thing that I wouldn't do is bungee jump, actually. But nobody suggested that and it's not really quite the challenge that people are looking for. But yeah, the challenges, they get more interesting. They change and adapt, and I think, again, you know, it's talking to people. It's this communication with people, we can get very wrapped up into our phones, into communicating through Messenger, and that doesn't develop growth or ideas. And so for me, it's definitely about jumping on the phone, talking to friends, "oh I've had an idea." And then people will say, oh, you should do this, and whatever it is, and so it tends to develop into something. Then of course, usually I've got these very lofty ideas of what's going to happen, you know, these huge things. Yeah, they normally scale back a little bit in reality. But it's okay, because you keep moving, right? You keep taking steps forward. Yeah, I agree. You know, not everyone's going to go off and do these ridiculous things completely unprepared, because if we're all doing that would be quite bonkers. But people are living their own adventures in one way or another, and they're doing their own things, and they're leaving their mark, whether that's through a garden plot. My Dad's makes such an impact with his bit of land and smallholding and we're all doing our own adventures and our own journeys. It's just deciding what you want to do, and making that purpose so that it feels enough to propel you forward so that it continues to go those extra three miles to propel you forward.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  39:11

And in doing that, that then makes you more resilient to cope with the next stage. For somebody, choosing to go and work on a piece of land, either to buy it, or to rent it, and then to work on that piece of land and use it as a smallholding, for some people that would be a massive adventure and well out of their comfort zones. It's just choosing that element of your life that is going to push yourself out of your comfort zone and create new experiences for yourself. Yeah, I think that's important.

 

Nahla Summers  39:41

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, these things take years sometimes to develop and some things that people do, take a shorter amount of time, but it's about really doing things that you just enjoy and then kind of focusing and developing on that.

 

Nahla Summers  39:57

So yeah,

 

Nahla Summers  39:57

no, yeah.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  39:58

Actually I'm really pleased you said that because I was just about to ask you, what do you fear? So if you haven't found anything that people have suggested to you to do yet, that's been a bit out of your comfort zone, are there things that you do fear? And I wanted to add to that, not because I'm some kind of sadistic person, but I think that we CAN enjoy things that scare us, and we can benefit from things that scare us. So I just wanted to add that in as a, as ana...

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  40:26

...I wanted to add that in as an aside! Yeah, so what do you fear?

 

Nahla Summers  40:32

I will say fear and things going wrong. I just want to touch on both those things. So fear comes from something that we THINK might happen, usually. Unless we're literally stood in front of a sabre-toothed tiger, and then that's natural fear, because we fear for our life. But most of the fear that we experience is because we try to predict what might happen going forwards. I have an innate knowledge, as we all can, in fact, that when things go wrong, we actually have this ability to be stronger at the back of it. So when things don't go right for me, I think, 'that's great. I'm happy with that. It's a pain right now.' But I know that it's not what comes to me, will come to me for the right reasons, and I just have to go and find another route to achieve the same target. That's a mindset. That's just a thought process that I've adopted, over time. I've started to realise I embrace when things go wrong now, and I'm grateful for them. I don't wish them upon myself, I don't want them all the time. But I'm like, 'this is great', because I know that I'm going to come out stronger off the back of it.

 

Nahla Summers  41:54

So we have this ability to allow things to go wrong, but also that reduces our fear. Because we don't then start predicting what are all the things that could go wrong, because you've already got this mindset where you're going, it's okay, when things go wrong. It's okay to fail at something. It's okay... well I say 'fail', it's not quite the right word. But for things to fall apart, and for us to pick ourselves up and start again, because we're gonna feel so much better for it. And also, again, when we try things that we've never tried before, we don't actually know the fear that we need to face. So you know, next year, the aim is to be in New Zealand, from north to south New Zealand. I will not be Googling all the things that could happen, or the animals that I could encounter while I'm camping out. I'm not going to do that. Because I will project that and I'll be thinking, oh my god, you know, I can't do that dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. So that's around not thinking too much into the future, and when our minds do that, to really change it. We have the ability to do that if we want to.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  43:07

Gosh, definitely yes. And I can see myself, I am that person who WILL Google, what could happen to me, what I might meet. I over-analyse everything, and so therefore, I am afraid of the things that I'm about to go and do before I've even launched myself into doing them, which is why HeadRightOut began. I guess it was as much a platform to help other women as it is to help me, or the other way around! It's definitely something that I need to work on. I've got to stop over-analysing, because that's where my fear comes in, and I know that and gosh, what you've said, has just gone wakey-wakey, Zoe. It's YOU!

 

Nahla Summers  43:47

It's interesting, I did a talk. This woman asked me when I was doing this talk at the q&a at the end, and said to me, what do we do about the conversations that are going on in my head about, I'm not good enough. And first of all, I talked about positive affirmations, of course, hugely important. But it's also about when we want to keep fit, when we want to keep our bodies fit, we go to the gym, and we'll go every day, or we might go for a walk, or we go for a run, and we know that we have to keep our bodies fit. But so often with our minds, we don't do the regular exercise that we need to be able to get rid of those fears, to remove any procrastination we might have, and to work on those things to work on self belief. I am enough, and to repeat that, and to know that and to feel it, and to not chase down toxic environments, hoping to be liked and loved, and focus on things that do us well. So yeah, there's a huge thing around training the brain. We can train our bodies but we need to train our brains and that was something really that came out from the adventures on the importance of that. Because it didn't matter that I hadn't trained actually. It didn't matter that I hadn't trained on my bike. It didn't matter that I couldn't drink from water bottle while I was cycling along, because I learnt it. I learned as I went along. But what I couldn't do was train my brain, and that was the important thing. Yeah.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  45:20

That is such a positive take-home really from this, because it's not just about the fear. It's not just about how you deal with fear. That training your brain is also tackling my other big issue, which is imposter syndrome. And yeah. Everything that you have just said there applies to me, working out how I'm going to climb up that ladder, because I'm afraid of heights, but it's also going to help me and probably thousands of other women out there as well. It's going to help us deal with the imposter syndrome and telling ourselves that we are enough. Yeah, it's massive. Just thank you. Thank you, Nahla.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  46:00

Well, we're coming to the end of this amazing conversation, and there's just so much, so much in here, and it always takes me a while to process a conversation like this with people. I'm going to go away today and really think and reflect on what you've said. Because I take home those messages as well. I absorb them, and I use them, and yeah, hopefully it's all going to lead into bigger and better things. So I would like to know, has there been a HeadRightOut Moment for you, Nahla? This is something I'm collecting from each of my guests on HeadRightOut. Something where you perhaps didn't think you were capable, but you pushed yourself well out of your comfort zone, and actually benefited from it as a result?

 

Nahla Summers  46:48

Thousands. Thousands of HeadRightOut Moments! Moments sat in that bus stop with Scott thinking, 'yeah, I'm ready to give up.' And you know, for me, the HeadRightOut is so much about training the brain, is about stepping out. And it doesn't mean that everyone now needs to climb mountains, or do all these crazy things. But it's about that 'I am enough', getting out of our heads that will spiral us into this place that's limiting to our own development and all that we can deliver in the world. All those things that we can do for other people, it stops us from doing all those things, because we think I'm not enough. And we worry about oh what will that person think, or, you know, all of those things. And it's coming out of that space. And I think that's the turning moment. That's the HeadRightOut Moment to change that chatter that's in our heads.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  47:49

And that chatter can be so noisy can't it?

 

Nahla Summers  47:53

Sooo noisy! So noisy.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  47:56

It's just learning to turn it off. Well Nahla, thank you so much. This has been just massive, just so, so powerful for me. Would you like to share where people can find out more about you and follow you on social media and find out obviously, the big one where they can buy your new book?

 

Nahla Summers  48:16

Yes, very exciting. They can come and see me at www.nahlasummers.com. and that's N A H L A and 'summers' like the season with an S on the end. And you can buy the book through there, but also you will be able to, on the first of November, go into any bookstore and ask them to order you a book, which I'm very excited by. The more people that do that the better, because then bookshops become more aware of the book. So yeah, you'll be able to go into bookshops. You will be able to do Amazon as well and all of those kinds of online doors, but you know, we want to support those independent bookshops, for sure. I would love for people to go out and purchase it in the independents more than anything else, taking it back to them. So all of those things, Instagram, I've got TikTok and of course there's Sunshine People but when you go to nahlasummers.com, you can find out about the Sunshine People and about a Culture of Kindness. If you're looking to make kindness within workplaces, you can go to a Culture of Kindness and kindness within society is the Sunshine People. We're doing some stuff in schools with Sunshine People now and all sorts of great things and of course got the workplace stuff that do lots of free stuff as well as the consultancy, so do take a look and see what works for you.

 

Nahla Summers  49:38

Well, thank you Nahla. This has been fantastic. I wish you absolutely 150% luck with your book. I hope it smashes into the number one spot. That's what you need and best of luck. Thank you so much for coming on HeadRightOut.

 

Nahla Summers  49:54

Oh, thank you so much. Love what you're doing Zoe. Big fan, and hopefully I'll see you soon.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  50:08

That was such an amazing conversation with the Nahla. I loved how she talked of how the kindness of others has impacted on her, and how the kindness that we can give back to society to our friends to our communities, also can have such a huge impact. How Nahla experienced that catalyst of kindness after a period of grief, and I loved her explanation of 'blind optimism'. I don't think I'm guilty of that. I mean, I can be optimistic, but I don't think I have blind optimism because I don't just plough on into something without checking it out fully, first. There are huge messages delivered there and I know what she's saying about how we can potentially change our world and change our culture, with acts of kindness. Many, many, many simple acts of kindness can go a long way to changing world's, country's problems.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  51:10

I know how great being kind to somebody can make you feel as well. Just last week, I was down in Cornwall for a couple of days, and I helped an old lady at Geevor Mine. It's not far from St. Just, near Land's End. It was blowing an absolute hooley, and we had reached the mine after having a few miles walk along the coast and back again. This lady in her eighties, a very small, frail lady with a bag, and a key in her hand was standing, hunched over, leaning against a wall, facing a car that was probably just five metres away. I went over to her and asked her if she was okay, and she said, "no, I'm trying to get to my car." But she was frightened of being blown over and I said, "would you like to take my arm?" She said, "yes, please." So she took my arm, and I guided her over to the car, and then she couldn't open the car. She didn't know which button to press. So I helped her with that too and waited until she got herself settled in there and showed her which buttons so that if the car locked itself, she will be able to open it for her family that were coming back a little bit later. Just in that few minutes of helping somebody else, it made me feel really good too. Not out of a selfish way, but just because I had taken the time to help somebody else who was in need. Anyway,  so go and check out in Nahla on her socials. I have put all of the links to nahlasummers.com and Instagram, Facebook. I've put it all in the show notes, and don't forget to go and order her new book from your local bookshop, The Accidental Adventurer, you are going to love it.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  52:59

Okay, so I have got some exciting news to share with you. A couple of years ago I did my 100ScaryDays, and my 100th Scary Day was always going to be a skydive, and it's all bought and paid for. I paid for it myself, and it got cancelled twice, due to bad weather conditions. Then it couldn't happen because of the pandemic, and then I moved up to Wales, and then we've had other family issues that we've been dealing with. So it didn't get rebooked. But last week, I have rebooked it and it is happening on the 12th of November with GoSkydive. I am so, so excited, but also a bit scared. I am just going to take it as it comes. I'm trying to blot out any feelings of how I'm going to feel when I'm standing in the aeroplane and we're about to jump. But it is going to be fabulous. I'm sure it's going to be a challenge episode. I'm going to use it for the podcast. Yes, there is a video happening as well and photographs. So it will be on social media too.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  54:00

Now bearing all of this in mind, I did mention in my first 'solopisode' that I was looking for a name to call these challenge episodes. I'm still looking for a name I have had some suggestions which are on my sheet of paper, to be considered. But if you have any clever ideas about what you think I should call these episodes where I head out of my comfort zone, doing scary stuff, and I record it and edit it and deliver it back to you, as an outside episode, please come back to me with your suggestions because I would love to finally give it a name.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  54:39

Okay, this week's HeadRightOut Moment - it's a lovely, lovely HeadRightOut Moment. It's been sent to me by Kirsty Gwynn-Jones, all the way from South Australia. So she says I'd like to share with you my bike packing trip around the Yorke Peninsula in South Australia. I rode this almost 500 kilometre track called the Walk the Yorke, which has both a walking and cycling version, and I did it in 2018.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  55:04

I planned ahead (I mean a day or two before), and booked basic accommodation for four nights. My husband will and our children dropped me off in Moonta, the night before I headed off, remember will giving me a lesson on bike mechanics before they left. I was riding my son's Trek mountain bike. I really didn't know what I was doing, and I only carried a small backpack with a change of clothes, spare tyre tubes, some tools, a few snacks (there aren't many shops on the route), and water along with a litre of water on my bike.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  55:35

On day one, I headed off at sunrise thinking that that would give me enough time to ride the 120 or so kilometres I thought I'd be covering that day before sunset. Not far into the day I was on very sandy tracks. When I followed the signs onto a beach. I knew that was wrong, but it wasn't too hard to ride on. So I continued on riding on the beach for quite a few kilometres, and eventually I rejoined the trail. I remember I could hear lovely native bird songs all day. There was some really tough riding, or not riding where I continually had to get off my bike and push it through the super soft sand! That became the theme of the day. I met a lovely retired English couple camping near the beach and shared a coffee with them. There was lots of beautiful scenery and sand dunes, saltbush and occasional sea views.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  56:23

The hours disappeared, and I found myself riding in the dark. Luckily, I had bike lights.  I range the owner of the cabin, I was heading to at Port Turton, because I realised I wasn't going to make it there in time for the pub meal I've been planning on. He kindly organised a frozen pizza for me instead. My watch ran out of power that night, but I recorded more than 116 kilometres before that happened, and there was at least five kilometres after. I was tired, but full of a sense of achievement.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  56:52

The next day, I headed off early again and remembered the beautiful light on the rocky corrugated tracks. My back was really aching from the weight of the backpack. So I took out the heaviest things; the spare thorn-proof tubes, and tied them around the bike frame. Then I secured them with a shopping bag. This must have looked crazy, but it helped my back, so I didn't really care. I recorded this day on Strava as some "gnarly tracks and beautiful sights". Stunning coastline and beaches were the theme of this day, a few sandy spots and lots of sunshine. I remember lots of animals too. Cattle and sheep in paddocks, but heaps of roos also.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  57:33

The Corny Point Lighthouse was a highlight, as were the beach views along the rough rocky roads after. My back ached when I had a patch of bitumen riding, and I remember seeing a cloudy ring around the sun and wondering if that meant rain. I was excited to reach the beautiful Innes National Park that I always loved visiting. Of course there were loads of roos and even a few emus to keep me company.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  57:55

Again it got dark quickly and as I headed closer to Marion Bay, my front light failed because I'd forgotten to turn it off soon enough, earlier in the day. I used my red flashing light on the front of the bike, to alert the few cars on the road. But it didn't help me see very far. This time. I wasn't too late for that pub meal, and it was awesome! I'd covered more than 124 kilometres.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  58:22

The third day began along another corrugated white rocky road. I ran into the lovely surfy owner of the cabin that I'd stayed in the night before, on a remote bit of road and was initially shocked when he knew my name. Having spoken on the phone, he said in a kindly way, "there's no other mad females out here riding, so I knew it had to be you!" The morning went on forever, and the scenery wasn't that exciting. Until that point I'd been filling up with water at the track water tanks, but the few I passed were empty. I realiesd it was likely to be seventy kilometres before I could refill with no towns until Edithburgh, so I was careful with my water.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  59:03

There was a crazy section where I was riding through spinafex, and I cursed whoever thought it was rideable but kept going anyway. Then I found the most stunning cliffs around the beaches, and felt I discovered another Great Ocean Road, but with the roughest road ever. It was windy and the low bushes had that awkward lean, often seen on clifftops. I was in heaven with the views near Troubridge Lighthouse until I nearly fell off in a crazily corrugated downhill! But I stayed on a high as I cycled through a narrow grey-sanded bush section, hoping not to see a snake. Then I was under the creepy shadows of the wind turbines, and there was smoke in the distance. I was hoping it wasn't a bushfire. Suddenly, I popped out onto a gravel trail, with lovely mosaics on rocks every 200 metres, or so. I stopped to admire and photograph a few, but was too hungry and thirsty to stop for very long.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  59:59

I remember the juiciness of the steak sandwich I had before heading off towards Port Vincent. Again, I saw the beautiful light of the sun on the stubble. It was April and autumn and lots of lovely old ruins of early farmhouses. I arrived after dark and decided the banana bread I bought at lunchtime would do for dinner. After more than 133 kilometres, I was exhausted but so fulfilled, titling my Strava record of the day. 'Awesomeness'.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:00:30

A pink sunrise again over another jetty started the day and I was off along some soft dirt tracks through the bush. I fell once but not heavily. My bum was very sore and I wrapped the bandages from my first aid kit around my seat, to soften the impact of sitting. I loved riding past the gigantic silos, at Ardrossan and past some pink salt lakes. The crusty sand that my tyres sank into as I neared Port Wakefield was not so much fun, and I had to use the mantra, 'the body achieves what the mind believes', to push through.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:01:04

I finished the day and met Will, having ridden a total of 477 kilometres. I was so tired, sun-weary, but completely ecstatic that I have ridden the Walk the Yorke on my own. I learned so much about persevering and how to prepare for my next bike packing trip.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:01:27

Wow, Kirsty that is just such a beautifully written HeadRightOut Moment, and how incredible that you got to do that on your own and that your husband supported you by taking you there. So often when we have younger children that rely on us that you know, are still dependent on us, we don't feel like we have the opportunity or the permission even, to be able to go off and do that. But having that support just is so important. That backup from your family. Kirsty did this, and made her adventure such a memorable time. And she drew on so many different skills, and no doubt had a range of different emotions and feelings. You know, I could feel it was going up and down, up and down all the way through. The frustration, and the elation, and even coping with the boring bits. Those boring bits are not always that easy, and can really test your level of endurance.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:02:29

So you can check Kirsty out on Instagram, her account is k runs south aus. Now I'm going to spell that out for you because it's not actually how it looks. It looks like KRUNSSOUTHAUS, so it's KRUNSSOUTHAUS and I will put the link in the show notes so you can go and check out Kirsty Gwyn James on Instagram. Her photos are fab, she's lives a really active lifestyle, and yes, I would thoroughly recommend going and following her. So thank you, Kirsty.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:03:03

Okay, that's it from me for this week. We have got an amazing episode next week with Ursula Martin, who is otherwise known as One Woman Walks. She has completed an incredible 5500 mile journey across Europe recently, so I will be chatting with Ursula. Until then, have an amazing week. Get out there and do something that scares you. Test your resilience.  Plan to do something that's going to help you head out of your comfort zone. Keep that head right and healthy, doing things that test you and inspire you in your outside space. HeadRightOut hugs to you all.

Zoe chats to Anna Huthmaker, host of the Trail Dames Podcast. They discuss discovering hiking as a curvy woman, and the lack of representation that Anna felt while she was out on the trails. They also talk about the empowerment of organising, yes, organising and attending a hiking and backpacking summit, exclusively for women. Anna had NEVER organised anything like this before. The way she tells her story is so engaging. Anna hiked 700 miles of the Appalachian Trail, in her words ‘looking like a little watermelon in a tube sock’, broke her foot in two places and still returned to walk more. She has the ability to put a positive spin on so many situations. Anna very eloquently shares her experiences of Merry Penomause, and points out that HeadRightOut should not just be for midlife women. Okay - it’s perimenopause but as Anna and Zoe discover, there's nothing like a little spoonerism to lighten your day!

Zoe Langley-Wathen  00:24

I talk today to Anna Huthmaker, host of the Trail Dames Podcast. We discuss discovering hiking as a curvy woman, and the lack of representation that Anna felt while she was out on the trails. We also talk about the empowerment of organising, yes, organising and attending a summit for women, all about backpacking and hiking, and I should add, Anna had NEVER organised anything like this before. The way she tells this story is just amazing. Anna was also able to very eloquently tell us her experiences of Merry Penomause too, and flags up that this show should not just be for midlife women. Yes, I did just say perimenopause the wrong way round! It was actually a funny thing that happened between Anna and I in our pre-recording discussion, and I think in my head, it's always going to be that now. There's nothing like a little spoonerism to lighten your day!

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  01:24

Now, as Anna said, no one talked about menopause to her when she was younger and no one talked to me about menopause when I was younger. So get your daughters listening to this early on. She is an absolute scream. She is SUCH a bundle of joy. I love Anna to bits and I think you are going to love this episode too. So get your earbuds in, get listening and enjoy the episode with Anna Huthmaker.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  02:01

Okay, and welcome back to yet another episode of the HeadRightOut Podcast. Yes, this is just so exciting. We're still going and today I am just thrilled to bits because I have a wonderful lady who I've had three conversations with I think now, I forget But anyway, we just feel like we are connected and we were perhaps separated at birth! Her name is Anna Huthmaker. Welcome Anna.

 

Anna Huthmaker  02:30

Thank you so much. It can I just jump in and just say how impressed I am with your podcast. The first time we talked, you said you know I'm really thinking about doing this. I should do this. And that was not very long ago. And here you are, just crossing it.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  02:45

Thank you so much. Thank you, thank you. Well, I'm gonna start off Anna, just by telling people a little bit about you, just to kind of wrap it up into a little parcel about who you are, just so people have a good idea of your background where you've come from.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  02:59

Anna Huthmaker grew up immersed in the world of classical music, studying cello and double bass, and spending weekends playing with symphonies and chamber ensembles. She used to joke that she had a practice room tan and rarely got outside, much less went hiking. However while spending a summer in the Brevard Music Center in North Carolina, she got invited to go on a hike. Being slow and insecure, she was soon left behind and over the next few hours found herself falling in love with the smell of the trees around her. As the years went by, she started hiking more and more, always by herself before finally scraping up the courage to try a thru hike of the Appalachian Trail. She spent four months backpacking, broke her foot in two places, walked seven hundred miles and found herself completely changed. Along the way she realised that there was no one on the trail that looked like her. At all. So several years later, she started Trail Dames: a hiking club for women of a curvy nature. Anna was determined to take over the trails of the United States, and what once started with nine women in the basement of her family violin shop has now grown over 10,000 women, with chapters across the United States. Trail Dames also has its own Charitable Foundation, a bi-yearly summit, which is a women's hiking and backpacking conference, and its own podcast, the Trail Dames Podcast. Anna continues to play with symphonies and runs the family violin shop, but she's still moving forward with the idea of having women on trails, everywhere. I love that.

 

Anna Huthmaker  04:42

Oh my gosh, I have to tell you, does everyone feel this way? Like, when you hear your story repeated back to you... you go "oh, wow", you forget as you're on the journey, you know.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  04:55

You do. I've just been chatting with another guest and we had a very similar conversation, in that it's not just the listening back to your story, but it's actually that deep thinking that you have to suddenly do when you're in this podcast conversation situation, where you're remembering things that you'd forgotten about that happened ten or fifteen years ago, and you're thinking, wow, did I? Yes, I did that, I did do that. And it's really uplifting, isn't it to go back into that?

 

Anna Huthmaker  05:21

Oh, completely. And it reminds us that even the smallest of things can change your life. Honestly, it sounds kind of cliche, but it's true. And it reminds you that something that is maybe small to you can speak to another woman and inspire them. And so yeah, that was kind of great. Thank you.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  05:42

Yes, well, you are so creative as well.  I loved reading through that. I've got to say, I should add here, this was really funny. When I read through it the first time I didn't have my glasses on, and I think I was tired - it was last night and I didn't quite read it properly, and I read it as 'Anna is determined to take over the United States'. Haha! And soon the world!!

 

Anna Huthmaker  06:07

I can't do one of those laughs but it is funny cuz I always say we're going to take over the trails, you know, one day at a time, one woman at a time, and to this day, when I look out and see not just Trail Dames, but women's hiking and outdoor things has exploded and I look at it go... ha ha ha, we're taking over the world.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  06:27

Yeah. You know, how long ago did Trail Dames begin, because I feel very much like you are one of the forerunners in this?

 

Anna Huthmaker  06:36

You know, I feel like it too. So we are fourteen and a half years old or so. And when we started I did a lot of research and I said that we were the first National Women's hiking organisation, because I could not find anything else. We're not cutting the Girl Scouts, they're huge and giant and lovely. And it was very interesting, because someone told me once and I'm going to tell you this too, with with HeadRightOut, they said you will not be the first for long, because people will copy you and come along and they'll do their own thing. And they told me, they said Anna, when that happens, it's a great compliment, because it means you had a great idea. And I've always seen it that way when when other people say, 'you know, Trail Dames is great, but it's not our thing. We're going to start our own thing'. And I'm always, 'yes', because we can't have too many of them. So because HeadRightOut, you're the first one that to my knowledge is doing what you're doing. But yeah, it's a great idea. So there'll be others

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  07:30

That's it, and actually the more voices, the more women's voices that we have, the more curvy women's voices you have, the more midlife women voices we have, actually the stronger our message. So therefore actually it shouldn't be a competition. It's just about singing and speaking and walking and adventuring together.

 

Anna Huthmaker  07:52

As you said, You know, I grew up my whole life as a classical musician, which is lovely, but I get plenty of competition in that area of my life. Yeah, yeah. Oh, no, I'm all about holding hands and singing 'Kumbaya' that is my thing.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  08:08

Around a campfire.

 

Anna Huthmaker  08:09

Absolutely. Absolutely.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  08:11

So with Trail Dames then, tVhat's all about taking women out onto the trail that perhaps are not confident about approaching a trail themselves on their own is that is that where...?

 

Anna Huthmaker  08:24

You know, it's so interesting, because when I started Trail Dames, I was very single-minded. And when I say I didn't see women that looked like me, I really was focused on weight, and size. And you know, I went on the Appalachian Trail, and I'm five feet two and at that point I weighed 262 pounds, I have no clue what that is in metric. (118kg/18.7stone)

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  08:43

Oh, I know, I can't either, you know,

 

Anna Huthmaker  08:45

Whatever that is, I was like a little watermelon in a tube sock, you know, hiking, the Appalachian Trail. And so my thing at that point was, I want to give women who carried the same kind of fears and insecurities that I did in regarding their weight. That was really what I was focused on. But I have to tell you, like, even from the first meeting, all kinds of women showed up all shapes, all sizes, and pretty early on, like I would have these thin, fit women and they look at me and they'd be like, 'do you think I'm not curvy?' And I'm like, 'okay, I got it. You're curvy. ok!' And what I very quickly learned is that yes, we do provide a space for women that have never been outdoors before, that are insecure or nervous or not sure what to do. But really, it's about connection. You know, and you know this with HeadRightOut, we are providing connection. And it took me a little while to figure that out and go oh, wow, this is what's happening. So I refuse to let go of the tagline 'Trail Dames: a hiking club for women of a curvy nature', because I still want those women to feel like they have found their tribe. But all the other women are there. Of course, they're here. They're welcome. We're everywhere. Yes.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  09:58

So if ever I come to Atlanta, Georgia. I can come along?

 

Anna Huthmaker  10:02

You are hiking with us. Absolutely. Yes, that would be so much fun.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  10:07

Oh, wouldn't it just? So the Trail Dames, it had I think I read in the bio, you have a couple of different aspects to it. So you've got the the podcast, you have the charitable foundation, and then you have a summit that happens every other year.

 

Anna Huthmaker  10:23

Yes, yeah. Except for COVID. You know, we all say COVID.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  10:27

That doesn't count. I read I had checked it out. I went onto the website to do my research...

 

Anna Huthmaker  10:37

I call it stalking. I always say  I stalked you, I mean researched you!

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  10:44

So yeah, so the Trail Dames Summit, it's tagline was 'a woman's exploration of self and the outdoors', and I connected with that so much, because that's what HeadRightOut is it's all about. Heading out of your comfort zone in the outdoor space and heading out of your comfort zone means that you are exploring yourself, and then observing how you deal with that, but it's in particularly in the outdoor space. So tell me about the summit, because for me, this is definitely a comfort zone thing, I feel, but maybe it wasn't for you. But it wasn't something that you've ever done before.

 

Anna Huthmaker  11:18

So I do have to tell you so quickly, because when when women talk about wanting to do things, you know, my my thing is always just go do it. Just jump right in, just do it. And I have to tell you, I was taking a class in marketing and advertising and it was for our family business. And they were saying, Oh, you need to do something big. And of course, everything for me was like, okay, family business, violin shop, marketing, but Trail Dames. That was what I did with everything, I was learning for both. At the end of the class, they went around the whole circle, there's about thirty of us, and they said, Okay, what big thing are you going to do, and when they got to me, I went, I'm gonna do the nation's first women's hiking backpacking conference, because I hit Google it and that one didn't exist. And the teacher didn't even hesitate. He said, great when you are going to do that? And I said July, and he says, okay, and he moved on to the next person. There was no questioning, no planning or anything. This was February, so I went home... and this is how I do everything... so I have stated that I'm going to do this this is now happening for sure. Without a doubt. I googled How do you put on a conference?

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  12:24

Thank God for Google.

 

Anna Huthmaker  12:25

Oh, my gosh, seriously! Every single website said start a year to a year and a half out. And I was like, ohhhhh, maybe this is bigger than I thought. The story of how we got through the next four months involves me almost having a nervous breakdown and my friends circling around me and saying, we think you need a committee and my friends came together and my wonderful friend Pam joined with me as a co-chair and it happened, and it was amazing!

 

Anna Huthmaker  12:56

There's this picture of me I have to tell you, we met at this little college and they had no air conditioning. It was Virginia in the summer and we were all hot and we were sweaty and I think like sixty-two women came to that first one and I was so happy. There's this picture and you look out over the room and someone is speaking and I'm leaning against the door and in my face and maybe it's because I was there I can tell you, they're simultaneously like the greatest exhaustion but coupled with, I was so moved because in the heat we were sweating and it didn't matter. These women were so engaged in what the speaker was sharing they had within two and a half days, everyone had become the best of friends you know how that is something like that? It was extraordinary you know and I remember a friend of mine looking at me and going, 'Oh Anna'... and we both just started crying. We were like look at such beautiful things can happen if you just jump in and go for it. You might be really tired. But you know it did it just brought about such camaraderie, such companionship and again, connection. That's like the word of the day, I think.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  14:05

Yeah. I mean, for starters, obviously you should be so proud of starting that up and just giving women that opportunity. I would be moved if I was sat there listening to those people speaking. And I've been to conferences. I n fact, I went to a conference back in February. It was just before the lockdown. It managed to sneak in before the lockdown. It was called the Adventure Mind conference. And it was the first of its kind and it brought together speakers that were sharing stories about resilience, and building resilience using adventure. Not just for adults. For children, for young people, for mental health, you know, everybody should have this opportunity of sleeping outside or pushing themselves beyond their comfort zone stretching those resilience strands that we're made up of, and making sure that they're strengthening all the time. Yeah, and I remember coming away from that feeling so empowered, and so full to the brim of ideas, and just a need and a desire to go out and change the world! And that's what it's about, isn't it? So going to conferences and summits like this is such a positive thing for other people. So for you, for those women that would have had such a huge impact on their lives, but also on your life as well.

 

Anna Huthmaker  15:27

Oh, completely, you know, it's so funny because just through the years of Trail Dames so far, we talk a lot about the growth and wonderful things and what women have gotten from it, and how they've gone out and done bigger and better things. All I think about all the time, honestly, I joke, I say it really is all about me, but are the lessons that I've learned. I talked about it, like I said, my friends like circled around me and said, we think you need a committee, they literally had to sit me down and wave their hand in front of my face and say, 'yo, Anna ask for help'. That's the thing a lot of women have a hard time with. It hadn't even occurred to me. That's the thing. It wasn't pride. It wasn't, 'I can do this'. It hadn't even occurred to me. And so little lessons like that happen all the time. Like for me, I feel like we're all getting great things from it.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  16:18

Yes. Oh, that's such a positive response. And so you've never done anything like that before.  You stepped out of your comfort zone. You've learned lots of lessons from it. Hang on a minute, when was the first one that happened? What year?

 

Anna Huthmaker  16:29

Oh gosh, you cannot even ask me that, because I don't know. Okay, I think 2011.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  16:35

Okay, so it's ten years if we take out COVID. So ten years, so you've had five as it's bi-annual.

 

Anna Huthmaker  16:42

We actually have had I think six, because we started doing it every summer, like the first three, we were doing every summer and by like after the third one, I thought I was gonna die. Because I work a full-time job, and I work part-time jobs, playing, teaching and I was performing as a freelance musician. And I ran Trail Dames in the corners of my life. And so then to put the summit on top of it... yeah. So after those first three years, we all decided every other year is a smarter move. Yeah, I think that we've had six.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  17:11

So in those six years, you must have had some amazing stories back from people. You must get feedback, or even perhaps speakers that come back in following years that perhaps were they just in the audience previously?

 

Anna Huthmaker  17:26

Yes. That's really interesting because one woman at her first summit, she told me... she said, 'I've never hiked or backpacked before'. And the next year, when she came back, she was getting ready to do a thru hike. She talked about for her how it was about skill-building. I don't know, she was just a pretty... I don't know what the word is the word is driven, because that might have a negative connotation. She was just a confident woman to begin with. But she talked about getting the skills she needed and to be able to move forward and she got them. That started right there at the summit. Things like that happen a lot. But it's the small things that I really love. It's the women that show up.

 

Anna Huthmaker  18:07

We have a lot of women that come that these are my favourite kind of women. You ever heard the term 'armchair hikers'?

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  18:13

Yes.

 

Anna Huthmaker  18:14

Yeah. So it used to be that 'armchair hiker' was a little bit of a... it wasn't an insult, but it wasn't necessarily a good thing. A bunch of hikers would be sitting around going 'Oh, so and so is an armchair hiker'. But I have always seen that as something completely different. I've seen armchair hikers as DREAMERS, because they are sitting there learning about the trails in the outdoors and mountains, because they have a dream inside of them. I cannot tell you how many of those women have come to Trail Dames or this summit, and then gone out and hiked. They've gone out and experienced their first mountain. You know, that's a win. That's what I want right there.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  18:53

It's so powerful.

 

Anna Huthmaker  18:54

I do not care if ... I don't need you to go hike three thousand miles or six thousand miles. Those women are extraordinary. But if you say 'I just went and did this three-mile loop and I went by myself for the first time ever'. I like get goose bumps. Just for me, that's the exciting stuff.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  19:12

That is. It's women empowering women, which yes, it's just needed. They need to see that there are other people like them out there doing that stuff. And it's important. So you did the AT.

 

Anna Huthmaker  19:25

I attempted the AT.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  19:26

Okay, so you did seven hundred miles.

 

Anna Huthmaker  19:28

Yes, I did seven hundred miles and this is always really important. My friends they give me a hard time because I always go 'I only did seven hundred miles'. I am not cutting myself down. I'm not downplaying what I did. Let me tell you, seven hundred miles was extraordinary for me. Extraordinary. But the Appalachian Trail is somewhere around 2100 miles. I know so many women, and men of course, that have done the entire thing that to me, that's just a respect thing. So you know, you call yourself a thru-hiker while you're doing it while you're attempting it. When you're done, to me, you get that title if you finished it. So I say I only did seven hundred miles, but yeah, it was great.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  20:07

It was seven hundred miles when you put it into a different context just over eight hundred miles is walking Land's End to John o' Groats, here in the UK. That's not to be sniffed at you know. That's that's gonna take quite a while. It's four or five, six weeks depending on whatever speed you want. No, no, no, no, this we're talking five six weeks UK... Land's End to john o'Groats! I realise the AT is whooo, so up and down!

 

Anna Huthmaker  20:41

I'm tickled because normally the Appalachian Trail will take your average bear six months you know, but even had I not broken my foot and had to get off to heal and then come back and had I had an interrupted experience but I'm really slow and I'm easily distracted.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  20:59

I know that feeling. Me too.

 

Anna Huthmaker  21:02

Yeah, yeah, so I think probably was all said and done, I did about four months on trail.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  21:10

Yeah, that's still four months of being with yourself and perhaps meeting other people being out in nature being on your own. It's four months of experience. Forget the miles, it's four months of amazing experience.

 

Anna Huthmaker  21:24

Amazing and I did have a hiking partner for almost the whole thing and it's like anything else in this world like, if you go to college when you come out of it, you have a million little stories. If you do something like this you come out of it, you have a million little stories and on the Trail Dames podcast, our producer had encouraged me from the beginning to read my Appalachian Trail journal entries, at the end of each big interview, because I do some smaller things. So I read a couple of them and I did this in 2003 so it was like a hundred years ago. And revisiting It is SOOOO much fun! And Steve he teases me. He's British also. Steve is very British, and he says, 'Anna you seem to get a bit emotional when you were reading that', and I'm like 'yes, I did!' What he means is I would sit there crying because it brings back these memories of all these stories of these people you meet, these kindnesses and these struggles. The whole thing. You know, you've done long trails.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  22:21

Oh gosh yeah. And can you imagine NEVER having written any journals or logbooks? Can you imagine not having that record?

 

Anna Huthmaker  22:29

Oh you think you'll remember everything, you really do. Even when I'm reading, it I can see that when I was writing it out, I knew that those memories would never leave me. Oh yeah, they're gone. Like some of mine, I look at it and I do not even recall that, at all. Let me just tell you, one of my good friends said to me once, he said, 'Anna, do you journal?' and I said 'no, not really'. And he said 'you should.' He said 'your life really deserves recording'. I say that to people all the time. Say that to women. You may not think it's much but your life deserves recording. So I'm just so glad I kept a journal.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  23:04

I feel that. Absolutely feel that here, because it is, it's so important. Even ten years ago, I was forty, and I did not think I would forget those important moments in my life. But now ten years on, they are definitely slipping. It's not until I start reading what I've written, even just in a diary that is just a daily diary like where I'm noting down engagements and places I've got to be, that's enough sometimes to trigger a memory. And that's why I have stacks of those diaries. I don't throw them away, because I never know when I might need to go back to them and just trigger a memory. But that deeper feeling, the thoughts, the acknowledgments of what's going on around you, when you are actually out on the trail. What's hurting? What are you fed up with? Who's pissed you off?

 

Anna Huthmaker  23:54

Exactly Yeah,

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  23:55

What are you enjoying? What do you love to see? All of those moments. It might just be 'oh my gosh, an owl just flew over me when I was having a pee in the middle of the night'. But those are the moments you just want to record and you don't want to forget aren't they?

 

Anna Huthmaker  24:10

They really are and you know for me I write a lot about what I smell and what I feel and I actually have a journal entry it's called 'I now know what the inside of a cloud tastes like'. It's because I don't want to forget those things. I don't do a daily journal like I probably should but like you're saying, every quote unquote 'adventure' I've taken, travels around the world, doing different things, I journal those. It takes a lot of time. You'd be amazed how much time it takes at night to lay in your sleeping bag or wherever you are, and write out that whole day. But I know that I want to remember. I want to remember what it felt like to touch an elephant in Thailand, or to watch kids playing in Africa. If I forget those things, I'm gonna be really upset, so yeah.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  24:58

I need to say that it takes time, but it takes energy as well, doesn't it? When you've been out on the trail and when you've been walking for miles, and miles, and miles that day, and then you've put your tent up or you just want to clamber into your tent, grab something to eat and go to sleep. I have actually been there in my sleeping bag with pen poised at my logbook, and I've fallen asleep... and you can see the biro trail across the page. Then I'm 'okay, right, now I've got to wake up quick, let's get this done'. And I've gone into bullet point form, because I can't do it long form. I'm just too tired to do long form. So I've just got to bullet.

 

Anna Huthmaker  25:34

Yeah and I learned early on that I couldn't put it off too much. If you put off two or three days, then then you could lose like, seriously, like three hours to sit there and really flesh it all out. So yeah.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  25:46

Yeah, no, easily. Anna, what did the AT give to you?

 

Anna Huthmaker  25:51

The number one thing it did, and I have to tell you, it was a process. It wasn't just a one moment. And it wasn't just the AT. But from the moment I looked at my mom, three years before, and I held up... I was reading all these books on the AT.. and I held up a book and I went, 'do you think I could ever do this?' Out of the blue. From that moment and her saying yes, to then a year and a half later, doing a three-day charity walk for breast cancer, which was sixty miles in three days. I would do these things, and then I finally hit the trail. There was all these series of events that actually made me believe I could do things. Because probably so many of your listeners, I'm sure you have done this used to read all these books and compilation essays of Women Adventures of the Outdoors. I used to love all those things have like eight of them. I will never forget one day, sitting down and I was reading it and just inexplicably out of the blue got really mad. And I was like, I won't say the word that I said, because it's not it's not a PG word. But I was like, I'm tired of reading about these women, I think I want to be one of these women and I threw that book across the room. I still have that book. I stopped reading those things. I was like, either you can or you can't, but it's time to at least try something.

 

Anna Huthmaker  27:15

So these things, especially the AT showed me that you could you could get out and do stuff. For me, like I said earlier, there are women out there that hike thousands and thousands and thousands of miles. You, Zoe have hiked more miles than I have, for sure. For me, it didn't have to be a number. It had to be an attempt and a trying. And every time I attempted something or tried something, I felt more alive and full of potential and like when I leave this world I want to have really experienced it. You know what I mean? Yeah, I just want to you know, I want to go into my next life or whatever and be like, Oh, I did a pretty good job at trying that one, you know?

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  28:02

Yes. It's not about succeeding. Is it?

 

Anna Huthmaker  28:06

Not at all. No, my definition of success are really different than a lot of other people. My definition of success is often just putting a boot to trail and trying it and if I come back and I only did seven hundred miles, but let me tell you for Anna that totally kicks butt, then yeah, it's it's fine.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  28:27

You've just sorry, memory trigger there. Your 'it kicks butt'. What's your trail name?

 

Anna Huthmaker  28:32

Oh, my trail name is Mud Butt.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  28:35

And why is your trail name Mud Butt, Anna?

 

Anna Huthmaker  28:38

Well, I have to tell you, it is so interesting because when I wrote my bio, (I've never written my bio, the one that I wrote for you for this), my trail name happened on that hike in North Carolina, that very first hike I ever took. It's funny because it was the most beautiful day. It was the driest of days. It was no rain, no nothing and my friend - one of my dearest wonderfullest friends, John was with me. He had left me and toward the end there was like a little rough spot and there was one mud puddle. He came back to me to help me, because they knew I would have a little struggle and of course, I fell into the one mud puddle on the entire trail. I mean, there is somewhere there's like this fuzzy old picture of it. When I look at it. I'm pretty sure I had on like these white, decorative tennis shoes and like a little pastel outfit. I tried to be all cute. I wasn't cute, but I tried. Anyway, he helped me and of course I'm all muddy and it was a joke. But later that night, we were all sitting around indulging in a little alcoholic beverage, like college age musicians will do. And there was some tequila involved, and at one point John was giving me a hard time, and somehow it slipped out. He said hey, and he actually called me Bud Mutt, because like I said there was a little alcohol involved. Bud Mutt? What's a Bud Mutt and when I realised it was Mud Butt, I laughed and laughed, and it kind of became just a little joke. I was not a hiker. I never even heard of the Appalachian Trail. Like none of those things. As the years went by, first I used it as a crutch for embarrassment. Like if I'm going to fall a lot, which I used to fall all the time before I discovered hiking poles. Whoo, hoo! Yeah, I would fall all the time. And I would be like, well, there I am. No surprise there. But it just became a sense of humour. It says where I've come from. It makes me smile. It came from a good friend. It's like my perfect trail name, for sure.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  30:38

Oh, I love it. I just love it. And yeah, and it's acknowledging that, hey, you know, you might fall over a few times, but you always get up again, and always get back on the trail and pick yourself up dust yourself down... and wash those white trainers!

 

Anna Huthmaker  30:55

Yeah, when I look at it I'm like 'you've come a long way baby' from that picture.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  30:59

But I'm sure you DID look cute. So were you ever faced then, with any pre-judgements from anybody else, when you're out on the trail, because of your curvy nature? Did anybody give you a hard time or give you any pre-judgements about whether they thought you were up to the job?

 

Anna Huthmaker  31:20

It's very interesting. So to my knowledge, no. I judge myself very harshly, and I assumed that people were saying things and judging me and making assumptions and all this kind of stuff. But no one ever said a single thing to me, but I can tell you that early on in the trail, we were hiking and I met some young men that were fantastic, and I met this young man named Sidewinder. Sidewinder was the quintessential AT hiker. He was like twenty-two years old, skinny, fit, fast, really personable. I met like two thousand people like this, mostly men, on the trail, but I just really liked him. He was a really nice guy, and I ran into him later. I had to get off the trail because I was injured. And I'm sorry, no one breaks her foot in two places, and then comes back. Everyone says when they're injured, I'm going to come back, but most people, they decide to come back another year. So I did assume that a lot of people would not think I was coming back. But I did and in Virginia down the road, I was hiking by myself for a week. My hiking partner had gone on ahead, and I was down in this grove, and I hiked down to this shelter. I remember it was really it was very dark, because we were really down deep between two mountains and I looked up and there was a guy sitting on the edge of the shelter. It was Sidewinder and I'm like, 'Sidewinder!' It was so great to see him. He was like, 'Mud Butt'!

 

Anna Huthmaker  32:41

So we sat and we had little lunch, and I will never forget this, because he was eating peanut butter out of a jar with a spoon and we were laughing and joking. He said, 'Okay, I'm taking off' and I said, 'Great', and he looked at me. He was packing his pack up, and he got real serious. He said, 'Mud Butt' and I go, 'yeah?' and he goes, 'no matter what anyone ever tells you, you belong out here'. And I went, 'well, well, thank you Sidewinder, I think that's so sweet'. And he hiked off, but I never have seen him since then. And I hope he's having a wonderful life, he's a great person, he deserves it. But I was sitting there for a second and I was simultaneously really moved and really touched. I really appreciated him saying that, but there was this little voice that went, he wouldn't have said that if people hadn't been saying it. Does that make sense? If they hadn't been talking about it. So now, I will tell you and this is not like me. Normally, I would have taken something like that and really chewed on it. But I didn't I like took from that feeling loved and appreciated and respected from a fellow thru hiker and went on with my day. I just remembered that because yeah, obviously, maybe some people had some stuff to say, but it wasn't my thing.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  33:50

Well, that got me. Oh, my gosh.

 

Anna Huthmaker  33:56

That is one of my favorite memories.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  33:58

Yeah, that is beautiful. And I can see how it could be construed either way. But as you did, you took it in the intention, I think it was given.

 

Anna Huthmaker  34:08

Absolutely. And that is 100% what he meant. And that right there is another really great example of something that I have learned and it's taken me fifty-three years. I'm fifty-three years old, to learn you can take anything two ways. You can look at any experience two ways. Every coin has two sides. We get to choose if I am in a normal state of mind, I choose to feel good about something. I choose to feel honoured and appreciated. I spend enough of my life worrying about feeling overweight and slow and not good enough and so I choose to not feel that way these days if I can at all help it.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  34:08

Yeah, that's grand. I like that. And I know we've touched on a little bit might have been in our little chit-chat before we started recording. I can't remember now. That's a perimenopausal brain. How is the vision then of other women out there, either on the trail or in adventure? Has it changed now, do you feel to how it was all those years ago when you first went out on the trail? Do you think it's different now?

 

Anna Huthmaker  35:16

For me or for the world in general?

 

Anna Huthmaker  35:18

Actually, okay, that's great. It is different, you know. So again, I basically a little bit feel like the old lady on the trail. When I first started my own hiking, and when I first started Trail Dames, groups of women coming together, we would have these Yahoo groups online. It sounds so old-fashioned now, but we were small, there weren't a lot of us. It certainly was mostly people who really already did hike. There wasn't a lot of reaching out and pulling out other people and saying, Come on with us. As it is grown, watching clubs pop up everywhere, all over the world, like hundreds and thousands of clubs. It's become so accepted and normal. You know, I used to walk up to strangers in restaurants and say, I'm not a weirdo, but you seem really cool. Come join me at Trail Dames and now when you do that, they're like, oh, yeah, I hiked last weekend. It's not as unusual as it used to be, which is fantastic. But there will always be women that will appreciate the extra support and the help and the motivation. That will always exist.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  35:19

Both.

 

Anna Huthmaker  35:42

And it's not just necessarily because of size, either, is it? I mean, there, there are a whole wealth of reasons and diversity issues, that might mean that they haven't managed to get out there into the mountains, on the trails, even just walking or exercising.

 

Anna Huthmaker  36:44

Yeah. And it's a thing where maybe we don't know what we're capable of, or what we can do, and again, maybe it hadn't even occurred to us, like my greatest lessons happened, because they had not occurred to me. Let me tell you, I was so moved. I was listening to your interview on your podcast with Julia Goodfellow-Smith. Y'all had a conversation and you were talking about superheroes. Superpowers. Yes, yes, yes. And I think about this all the time with Trail Dames and I think about people who have no clue that they have superpowers. A couple of years ago, I went to Thailand, and I was volunteering on an elephant rescue thing. And it was me and one other woman my age, and then a whole bunch of twenty-two year olds, and most of them were from the UK somewhere. It was so fascinating that first day, we sat down and our little leader, he said, okay, right, go around in a circle. He said, I want you to say your name, where you're from, and your superpower. That was what he said. They went around every one of those young people. Now these are young people who were trekking across Southeast Asia, staying in hostels, doing volunteer work, basically being unbelievable, every last one of them. Every one of them went, my name is so and so, and I don't really have a superpower, every one of them. By the time they got to me, I was tied into knots. I told them, I went 'you people are killing me!' and they just looked at me like I had lost my mind. I told them, I said, 'How can you each not think you have superpowers?' I said, 'I'm sitting right here and I'm immersed in your superpowers. Because look at who you are and what you're doing. You could be sitting on a beach sipping Mai Tais, and you're shovelling elephant poop.' Like these are amazing kids. And I just went on, I said, 'but you're very lucky. Today's your day.' I said 'Because my superpower is recognising other people's superpowers and helping them find them.' Which is so great. And you know, I told them,'by the end of this week, every one of you is gonna know your superpower.' And it did happen that way. But the best part of the whole story when I finished doing that, because I was really, you know, tied up in knots. I was like, how could these people not see it and this young man looked at me, and he went, 'you don't understand. We're British'. He said it just like that. I was like, 'Okay, I understand. You don't have to be loud and obnoxious like an American. But...!'

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  39:14

It is a cultural thing. But thank goodness, their superpower Fairy Godmother turned up.

 

Anna Huthmaker  39:22

Thank you very much. Yes, but the reason and I'm circling back around because this is what I think. You know, I hope that in Trail Dames, not everybody that comes to Trail Dames needs to be told what their superpower is. We have a lot of assured women and they're like, 'Here I am to save the day'. But I think these women's organisations all over the world that are helping women, that is exactly what all of us are doing. We're helping other women. We're not helping them even get a superpower because we all have them and we all have more than one. But just shining and holding a mirror and going by the way, look at this mirror. There you are. That's your superpower. So that's what I think is more and more and more happening these days and all in women's outdoor stuff everywhere. You for sure - you big time are just holding up a mirror to your women and saying look at what you can do. You should be given out capes.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  40:15

Cakes?

 

Anna Huthmaker  40:16

For heroes.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  40:16

Oh capes, yeah, sorry. I'm focused on cakes now. Cakes and Y-fronts. Oh my gosh, so you're fifty-three, Anna.

 

Anna Huthmaker  40:33

I am.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  40:34

I didn't know you were fifty-three until we had a little conversation just before we started the recording and as far as I'm concerned, you're ageless, you know, you have no age.

 

Anna Huthmaker  40:43

God bless you.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  40:45

You're welcome. But with that age comes a range of symptoms, sometimes. Little things that just kind of latch on to you and just go tap tap tap. I'm here, I'm here...

 

Anna Huthmaker  41:00

Is it getting hot in here?

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  41:02

It might be getting a little hot and then I might be getting MOOOODY! No, I don't want to go for another work with you. I want to go on my own. So we're obviously talking a little bit about the penomause.

 

Anna Huthmaker  41:19

Yes, penomause. Merry Penomause.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  41:23

Merry Penomausal. Okay, I'm sorry, but it will always be that in my head now. So yes, perimenopause. So talk to me a little if you will, about your experience so far of this and how you feel you are coping with it? Are you still managing to get out and do the things that you'd love to do? Your Anna experience of it.

 

Anna Huthmaker  41:48

Well, okay, so it's such an interesting question, because first of all, I know that so much of your audience are women that are about our age, but I want to encourage all of your listeners to have your daughters listen to this too, because I spent my whole life growing up thinking menopause meant old and you know, that was what your grandma's did and for that matter of fact, being a grandma meant old. But when I got here, I looked around I was like, holy crap, I'm not old! I know women that are traversing the globe, sailing around the world, climbing mountains, starting HeadRightOut organisations. This idea that menopause, or the time leading up to it meant that you were really older, it completely is not true. I want young women to know that, I want them to know that because I kind of always thought that maybe that was like from there on out, we just get on a nice slide into retirement. Well, that's nowhere close. It just doesn't work like that. I also just want to say that no matter how much people try to describe to you what a hot flash feels like, it is not like the real thing. Like you think you know, you think you understand. And people have said to me a lot that it feels like you're baking from the inside out. And I never really got that until I got it. And you're lucky because I go through phases. I'll go through like six months of hot flashes, and I want to kill the world. And then I go through some when I'm not having them. I don't have them now and you're very lucky because I'm looking around my desk as we talk because normally, I have all these little vials of peppermint oil because someone had told me when a hot flash is coming to put peppermint oil on your neck and it really does help, it helps a lot. It doesn't make the hot flash go away, but all of a sudden, it's very cooling, so it's a lovely thing. But I don't need it right now which is good.

 

Anna Huthmaker  43:37

Here's the thing so, I think for a lot of us, I know for me it kind of snuck in there. So what is the difference between just being moody and it being a hormonal moody and it being a perimenopausal you know, if you're only going by your periods that gets a little weird, but okay, so fine. So I started my period getting weird, you know, do you have one every two months, whatever and be like, okay, maybe this is the time. But then we have COVID. And the thing about COVID is, I can't speak for everybody else, but I'm pretty sure I'm speaking for everybody else. For our mental health, it has been really difficult. It has. Everyone I know, our forcefield that helps us get through the day, our inner strength has gotten very thin and very fragile, and the smallest things just make us lose it. Because we just don't have a lot of bandwidth, emotionally. So now we're interesting, because my desire to rip your head off... is that perimenopausal or is it because the COVID has just left me without many resources. I can't really tell you which is which. I can tell you it's a challenge to face it all. But I CAN tell you, I am not proud but I'll take anything you give me. I will take therapy. I will take medicine. I will chant naked around a fire, if it will make me happy and fulfilled and able to move forward with my life goals, without wanting to kill somebody. I'll do it all. So yeah. There's my epic Anna-story of perimenopause.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  45:12

I love it. And in those moments of you want to kill everybody, are you completely off the radar of getting yourself outside and going for a walk? Would that even occur to you in those moments? How do you cope?

 

Anna Huthmaker  45:27

That actually that's a good question. So I live in a very large suburban area outside of a large town. So I live outside of Atlanta, Georgia, in suburbs. First of all, greenspace and getting to trails is not particularly easy, but there are you know, if you're willing to drive, there are beautiful, unbelievable trails. The beginning of the Appalachian Mountains. However, when the shutdown happened in the US, then when COVID hit everybody in their brother, who had never set foot on a hiking trail, decided they were going to, and maybe there's a little bit of perimenopause emotionality, but I just got really angry and on news and on social media, they would show pictures of these little country highways lined with parked cars. Illegally parked and the trail you would just have hundreds of people on it. That is not relaxing to me. I'm a little ashamed and embarrassed, but a little bit I was like, 'excuse me, that's my trail.' Newcomers need to go home and watch Netflix like everybody else. For me, that was the first time in decades literally hiking in the outdoors did not call to me. It infuriated me and it frustrated me and things have calmed down now and now I have gone back out hiking and it's much better. But yeah, that was a very strange thing to go through where the one thing that I normally use, it could be my you know, people talk about your safe space. Oh my gosh, the the mountains of North Georgia and North Carolina, that green tunnel all those trees that is my safe space. It makes my spirit at peace. Normally. Until COVID. But now we're back. So yeah, it was a strange time.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  47:12

And would you feel that when you're hiking on your own as opposed to walking with somebody else. Would the criteria be that you need to go and do it solo?

 

Anna Huthmaker  47:21

It's so interesting, because people ask me a lot, 'do you prefer to hike with the Dames or by yourself?' And the answer is 'yes', because I spent years hiking by myself. It started because I was insecure and didn't believe I could keep up with other people or belong to a hiking group. But it quickly became that was my place of solace. Then with Trail Dames that quickly became so enriching and heart filling, I tell people my favourite sound in the entire world is the sound of women laughing through the trees. Because we would spread out up the trail, and we're not a quiet hiking group, by the way. You don't ever want to hike with us if you want to see wildlife. We tell people we are the wildlife! But that sound of women's laughter. Magic happens when you hike with women. You don't even know that within twenty feet of walking on dirt, underneath trees, you feel like you can share yourself with each other and you can laugh with each other and we cry with each other. So I love both equally and I need both, equally. Now when I go out by myself will I love a completely empty trail with no one but me. Absolutely. I know that's too selfish to ask for. I do live in a very populated area. But I'll take it anyway. I can get it though.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  48:35

So it's just being outside isn't it?

 

Anna Huthmaker  48:37

It really is, it really is.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  48:39

Mike and I got to walk some of the AT last year. We came over to New York in January. Two weeks in January beginning of February and we got back just before lockdown happened. But we made our way from New York via New Jersey and then up into Upstate New York to the Catskills and High Point I think, yeah I think we ended up at High Point. Anyway and a little bit of other stuff. We did two days of hiking one way on the AT and then hiking the other way on the AT and it just felt wonderful. I know I wasn't out there doing it for very long. Yes you know that's another dream of mine but just to be on that path that so many other friends and people I've read about or listen to as they're speaking, they have trodden that path. It just felt so good to finally be there and see that blaze. That AT blaze on the trees and I was thinking of you, and I was thinking of Sarah Williams from Tough Girl. There were so many people I was thinking of and it just felt good to be there and I was like, 'yes. One day.'

 

Anna Huthmaker  49:41

It is a magical place. I have to just say like for all your listeners like every trail has its own magic and its own energy. The Appalachian Trail, the energy of it, when we did Trail Dames' our very, very first Dames' hike, we hiked Springer mountain, which is the southernmost part of the Appalachian Trail. Now, this is not a good hike to take a group on. You have to go on a forest service road. It takes forever to get there. When you get there, it's just a mile up and a mile back. And it's a lot of work. And then there's not really great views. You know, it's just like this little unassuming in the middle of nowhere mountain with a plaque on it. But I tell people, like when you stand there, you can literally feel the hundreds of thousands of dreams that happened on that mountain. And you could feel it all up and down the trail. You know, anytime I step on the AT and like you said, when you see that white blaze, no matter what the weather, no matter what state you're in, no matter if it's muddy, or dry, or rocky, you can feel the dreams. The ground is marinated in them. And it's amazing. Amazing. Amazing.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  50:42

That's just Oh, absolute beauty in that. The dreams are marinated in them. Yes. So, Anna, we are coming to the end of our conversation.

 

Anna Huthmaker  50:55

You do know you and I could do this for hours and hours and hours!

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  50:59

And we have done because I you know, I've been on Trail Dames podcast twice with you. And then we've had other little chit chats as well. But yes, we do like to talk and and it's wonderful. And I just feel like we are connected by more than just the interest in walking. There's so much that we've got in common there. But I'm really interested to know about your HeadRightOut Moment. So this is a question that I ask all of the women that come on to the HeadRightOut Podcast. Do you have an experience, a moment where you think, geez, yeah, I actually stepped out of my comfort zone there, in the outdoors. It was something I didn't think I was ever capable of doing. And you might have talked about it already. And if you have, that's fine. But is there something that you could pinpoint where you go, yeah, that really was my HeadRightOut Moment, I stretched my comfort zone boundaries beyond belief... and benefitted from it?

 

Anna Huthmaker  51:53

It's very interesting, because I've had a lot because I grew up not thinking I could do very much. Stretching myself was not hard. Let me just say that, you know, I did not grow up thinking I could seize the day. I have to tell you, when I was doing my AT thru hike attempt, we were in Maine. And for those of you that aren't familiar with the AT, there's something called the Hundred-Mile Wilderness. And it's a hundred miles and for the most part, no road access, you have to really be ready. And then it's very rugged for me very, very difficult, very rugged. And we were probably about thirty five or forty miles into it. And I just looked at it. And of course I'm slower than I need to be because you got to be able to get through on the food that you're carrying. and I look at my hiking partner, her name is Bumpkin and I said 'Bumpkin, this isn't going to happen for me. I just can't move fast enough. This is really rugged hiking.' So we made a quick decision. And she left me and she we agreed on this. It was a good thing. She hiked off because she had she was marathon runner, she could do anything. And it started raining. And that was in the morning when she hiked off. And it rained for 24 hours. And I laid in my tent. And I alternately cried and attacked myself and was depressed and then cried some more for twenty four hours. And I realised that my will and my heart weren't enough. Like your body IS your limitation. No matter what you think, you know, I always thought I could do anything. Yes, you know, I'm short and rounded, but I can do anything. No, your body is a limitation. And I had this moment that I had physically stretched myself. Over-extended myself. Gone further than I certainly had ever gone before. But maybe at this point gone further than was smart or safe. Because at this point, like I'm literally in the middle of nowhere. And I'm praying that one of the logging roads that we crossed that if I just started walking on might at some point find my way out. This is what I'm praying, not a smart plan. I don't suggest that. But do you know the next morning I got up and I packed all my gear and everything's soaking wet and muddy and oh my god, I had this awful climb down this cliff like it looked like a cliff and it was these giant boulders and I was like, Oh, my leg muscles just don't have this. And this voice came to me and I'm not exaggerating. And I'm not trying to be silly and this voice went, 'You know what, this isn't your end, this is your beginning.' This is just the beginning. And it just kept saying that. And I literally I remember I stopped on the trail. And you can hear all the rain dripping off the trees, you know, and I was like, This is my beginning. You know, I didn't fail. I didn't make a mess of things. I still have to get myself out of the Hundred Mile Wilderness. But that's okay. And I'm sitting here today so we know that I did, but that voice was not my voice, and I will forever be grateful for it. Because if people say like what is the moment Trail Dames was born, I didn't have the name then, but that was the moment that I knew stuff was coming and I was going to do things. So that was my HeadRightOut Moment.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  54:57

That is a profound HeadRightOut Moment. Yep and she's off again...

 

Anna Huthmaker  55:02

I don't mean to make you cry. I'm sorry.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  55:04

No, it's partly the story. You know that what it means I know how much that means, but also the way you deliver it as well. And it's just yeah, that is such a special story, and I've not heard that before. You know, I've obviously heard your podcast and listened to a lot of what you've said and read things by you but I've not heard that story before. It's a very, very special agrotech moment. Thank you, Anna.

 

Anna Huthmaker  55:26

Thank you.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  55:28

Wow. So apart from making me cry, (no that's me), you have been just pure bubbles today, and pure positivity, and pure fun. There's something about you, Anna, that you just light up the room. And I know I've got my little grotto here...

 

Anna Huthmaker  55:48

I was going to say, you have some disco lights going on!

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  55:53

But yeah, thank you for stepping into my grotto with me.

 

Anna Huthmaker  55:56

Well thank you.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  55:57

And yeah, this has been absolutely incredible to hear you sharing your stories, and just giving us another step forward, another push of encouragement to say, you can do this. I know what you were saying earlier about knowing your body and knowing that your body is your limitation. Now, you do need to know your limits, and sometimes we do need to make that call that we need to perhaps step off the trail or step off an adventure that we're on because of safety. You know, we've got to keep others safe, we've got to keep ourselves safe, obviously. But what you shared there about that voice that came from somewhere, you know, that's your subconscious, just letting you know that actually don't cut it here. This is a new you. This is a beginning, this is something that if you don't do this, if you walk away from this now, you're not going to benefit from this experience, later on. Because now I can draw on that and say, Well, if I can do that I can do this. And it might just be something like stepping up in front of your first sea of people at your summit, at your very first summit. There's all sorts of ways that you can take those experiences into everyday life isn't there and I think that's what I found on my first long distance trail. I was able to take it into the workplace and into my everyday life and I didn't know I was going to get to do that. You don't know until you've done it.

 

Anna Huthmaker  57:24

You don't and I'll tell you magic happens. All you have to do is one thing, like break out of your comfort zone one little tiny bit. If it means going out on a kayak and you never thought you could do that, or go take a little class or whatever. Breakout one little bit and this magic thing happens. And I think that's the universe goes 'Aha, we got a live one.' And your little doors will start opening because I can tell you that there was a point in my life I didn't go ooh, I'm going to start an outdoor women's organization and I'm going to do a podcast I'm gonna do this. No, no, no, no, every one of those little things was a door that came up and as a result of something else. So pay attention like to step out just a little bit. HeadRightOut with Zoe, just one little bit and the universe will conspire to line up opportunities for you to do more and more and more. That's a cool thing.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  58:12

Perfect Thank you. So Anna, where can people come and share more magic with you online and the socials?

 

Anna Huthmaker  58:20

Everywhere and I think in the show notes you have all my links. You can learn about Trail Dames at www.traildames.com. If you are a woman who enjoys hiking, come to our Facebook page. It's a closed group, you do not have to be a member of one of the chapters. We have women from all over the world. And ahem, I would love to have an international chapter, I'm just saying to any of your listeners who feel like that's their, their moment to get out and start something new.

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/traildames/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/TrailDames

The Trail Dames Summit:

http://www.traildamessummit.com

The Trail Dames Charitable Foundation:

http://www.tdcharitablefoundation.org

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  58:45

Wouldn't that be great to spread overseas!

 

Anna Huthmaker  58:48

Oh, I've even we have a woman in New Zealand and I'm like going 'come on, we want to go to New Zealand', but like, come and join us because we are just low key. And it's not eight hundred messages a day. But we just celebrate each other and support each other and share pictures and everything of loving the outdoors. And yeah, and of course we'd love for you to come listen to the Trail Dames Podcast, we have this fabulous episode from this woman that you may have heard of her. Zoe Langley-Wathen. She's amazing. You should listen to that episode. It's really great.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  59:18

Thank you so much. Anna, is there anything else that you would like to say that I haven't given you the opportunity to talk about?

 

Anna Huthmaker  59:25

Just, thank you, Zoe. Like seriously, I want everyone to look at what you're doing and realise that you are literally putting your money where your mouth is. You are literally doing what you're asking other women to do. You know you are stepping out and taking chances and risks, and trying new things. So it's not just you like preaching from a pulpit. You're living it too, and so thank you for being such a motivation and inspiration to all the rest of us.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  59:51

Oh, thank you, Anna. Anna Huthmaker, thank you so much for coming on HeadRightOut, and I hope we can catch up with you again, some time soon.

 

Anna Huthmaker  1:00:01

Me too. It's my pleasure.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:00:11

Wow, how did that make you feel? While there were some potentially sensitive issues discussed. Anna has an extraordinary way of delivering them with such a fizz. I find myself being left with such a positivity and inspiration after talking with her. I have to admit through recording that with Anna, I smiled, and I laughed and I cried, but also whilst editing it, going back over it again, I smiled, I laughed. And yes, I cried again. Anna just lives her message of the things we do speak to other women. And I think that's something that I'm going to carry with me the things we do speak to other women. We have so much to offer, and so much to give, and so much to demonstrate, and we ARE what we live. Anyway, do go and listen to the Trail Dames Podcast, of which Anna is the host. It's so refreshing and so inspiring. And all of the links will be in the show notes.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:01:24

Now I'm recording today somewhere completely different. I'm at my mum's, we've had quite a tricky few weeks, with mum being in hospital but she came out of hospital this week and she's taking some time in a care home, a local residential care home. And so I am sat in one of her rooms. I don't have a sound booth, no grotto. So if this sounds a little bit different, that is why.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:01:59

Our HeadRightOut Moment this week has been sent in by Frankie Dewar and Frit Tam. So it's a joint HeadRightOut Moment. What an amazing moment it is. I'm going to read you what Frankie has sent me. I'm sharing this HeadRightOut Moment for myself and my partner Frit, who set themselves the challenge of rollerblading and cycling around England to share stories from the LGBTQIA+ community. This project was so daunting for Frit as they couldn't rollerblade at all at the start of the year, and had never done a trip of this size before. It was also daunting for me, as I was the support crew, and there to film the entire time. It sounds like I got the easy job. But filming is so unbelievably hard. And I didn't really have that much experience to draw on. But for me, the bravest part was Frit, publicly coming out as transgender, just before the start of the trip, and taking on the challenge at a really early stage in their transgender story. It was an amazing thing to celebrate. But it was also hard at times, you would go to a new place and it would be hard to tell whether you were really safe there or not. People would ask Where are you going? Or what are you up to. And sometimes we felt safer just to say cycling to Brighton, rather than to tell people about the full extent of the trip. And that's what the trip is all about. To share more stories and raise the voices of people within the LGBTQIA+ community to show that we are here and we are welcome, so that people don't feel like they have to hide who they are. We're currently crowdfunding to make a film from the trip and all the interviews Frit did along the way. We'd love it if you could visit the page igg.me/at/glide-for-pride. And you can watch a trailer for the film and if you feel able to help us to share these stories. So there will be a link in the show notes to their Indiegogo crowdfunding page and I will also put links to Frankie's Instagram page and Frit's Instagram page. They are both hugely inspiring.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:04:26

Frankie is also host of the Extraordinary Ordinary You Podcast, which I was interviewed on last year. And Frankie is no novice to adventure because she took off last year and cycled for months around the UK, interviewing women who were older than her, who had stepped out of their comfort zone, if you like. Done adventures, done things that were a bit different. So that's why she came and chatted to me. Do go and check them out. And if you can spare any pennies, please go and check out the rewards that are being offered in return for a pledge to help back Frit's film. Such a positive message to get more LGBTQIA+ individuals represented in the outdoor arena.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:05:20

Okay, well, this was episode eight. If you love what you heard today, please share, follow and review the podcast, just to ensure that HeadRightOut can reach more women out there. New episodes land every Wednesday morning, and I hope you'll be back listening with me again. I am Zoe Langley-Wathen, and I wish you a week of fulfilling HeadRightOut Moments. I hope you are inspired to head out of your comfort zone, doing stuff that stretches you and makes your life richer as a result. See you next week.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:05:57

HeadRightOut Hugs to you all.

 

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  00:17

Hello, and welcome back to the HeadRightOut Podcast. This is the show that hopefully will launch you into doing something that is way beyond your comfort zone. Something that you never believed you were capable of doing. Perhaps there's just a little seed of an idea growing and hopefully this is going to be the show that will spur you on that will give you the encouragement that you need to HeadRightOut. Now today, I have a lovely, lovely guest, somebody who I've been friends with online for many years. Her name is Stephie Boon, and I have to say she is so honest in her conversation with me, particularly about her experiences with mental health. I should add here that we do talk about the darker side of depression, anxiety, and feelings of suicide. So if you are not in the right frame of mind to listen, please feel free to skip this episode for another day when you're feeling in a better place. That said, Stephie is still very keen for women who suffer with depression to hear her story and understand that there's a light at the end of the tunnel. There ARE ways of coping and learning to manage this debilitating illness. We also touch on early menopause and living with a son with Aspergers and how above everything else, hiking just fuels our souls... and challenges... well, they help us to push us out of our comfort zone and they help to give us focus. There's a lot of things that Stephie and I have in common, and in addition to we both love hiking, we both feel the same about challenges, and funnily enough, we both have a degree in Fine Art in fact, Steffi has got post-grad in Fine Art. So we just have very similar viewpoints. It's a wonderful conversation, go and have a listen. Enjoy.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  02:21

Okay, and welcome everybody, back to the HeadRightOut Podcast. My name is Zoe Langley-Wathen and I am here today with another wonderful guest. Today I am going to be chatting to Stephie Boon and I have a wee bio here to read out for you so Stephie lives in Cornwall, she spends a lot of time on the coast path. A woman after my own heart. She's been a walker and backpacker for as long as she can remember. One of her most significant past challenges was to hike the Inca Trail, before her fortieth birthday. She made it at thirty-eight! It was a charity track and the biggest part of the challenge was the fundraising.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  03:00

Nowadays she solo hikes and wild camps in the UK. At the moment her goal is to backpack all the national trails before she reaches sixty. So far she's completed the South West Coast Path, Offa's Dyke Path, the Cotswold Way, the South Downs Way, the Pedders Way and Norfolk Coast Path, and she says she's gradually working her way south to north. Stephie has an MA in Fine Art and always takes a sketchbook with her on her hikes. She plans to make a series of national trail paintings and possibly sell or publish them. Stephie shares her expertise and guides over on her website and on her blog, 10MileHike. She also suffers with serious episodes of depression, which was first treated for her in her early twenties. She's very open about this on her social media and within her blog, and she hopes that by sharing her experiences, she may inspire others to overcome personal difficulties and step out of their comfort zones. After all, life is just too precious not to do the things you've always wanted to do. There's also an article over on the 10MileHike blog called 'Fears Laid Bare' and I'll put the link to that in the show notes. It really does bear all, particularly about the biggest challenge that Stephie  is facing at the moment, that she says is literally scaring the living daylights out of her. And that's something we'll come to in a moment.  Stephie, welcome to HeadRightOut.

 

Stephie Boon  04:23

Hi Zoe, and thank you so much for having me. It's a real pleasure.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  04:29

It is an absolute pleasure and delight for me too and I should let the listeners know that we have been friends on social media for how long? Probably four or five years maybe?

 

Stephie Boon  04:39

Yeah, long time.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  04:41

Feels like a long time and we feel like we know each other so well. We've had lots of conversations back and forth, and lots of support for one another and lots of Insta love. And now this is the first time that we've actually spoken... I want to say face-to-face.Well, this is as close as face-to-face as we're gonna get at the moment - it's Zoom-to-Zoom.

 

Stephie Boon  05:04

Live, I think is what we can call it.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  05:08

Yes.

 

Stephie Boon  05:08

In real time.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  05:10

So, Stephie, where did it all start with your love for hiking? You know you're setting out to cover all of these trails, but have you been hiking from a really early age?

 

Stephie Boon  05:20

Actually, this is quite interesting. I was sixteen when I went on my first backpacking trip with a couple of school friends, and we went to the South Downs Way. It was just a few days and we were just wandering around, as teenagers do completely clueless, just having as much fun as possible. But then, earlier this year, I realised it was forty years since my first backpacking trip, and I decided to celebrate that by going back to the South Downs. And I walked the South Downs Way, which is part of what I walked when I was a teenager. So I decided I'd stay at one of the youth hostels that we'd stayed at when I was young, as it was a bit of an anniversary. An anniversary hike.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  06:17

And a trip down memory lane too.

 

Stephie Boon  06:20

Yes, yeah. It was really funny actually, because my memories of that trip was bright sunshine, and hot and beautiful scenery. And this time it just rained. And storms, big winds, forty-fifty mile an hour winds. So a very different experience.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  06:42

It's interesting, isn't it? Because very often, when people are recounting their stories from their teenage hiking experiences or camping experiences, very often it's the other way around. You know, they had an awful time and their feet hurt, they had blisters and it rained like the devil, and they swore they would never, ever do it again. And "how dare they" whoever 'they' were, you know, perhaps it was parents or school, "how dare they make me do this"? So you had an amazing experience by the sounds of it.

 

Stephie Boon  07:15

It was. I always have really good memories of it. Just getting out into the countryside, just seeing these amazing views, that I'd never experienced before. And just feeling completely at home really. That was realising I think that I was most at home in the outdoors, and walking, cycling, whatever it might be.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  07:40

Yeah, I can relate to that. At home in the outdoors. Definitely. So how long was it before you then went off and did another hike?

 

Stephie Boon  07:48

Oh, probably quite a long time. Years, I would think. I did a cycling/bike-packing trip afterwards, which again wasn't particularly far. I think it was about a week, something like that, again along the south coast, all along the Seven Sisters. Then I went to art school, and most of the walks that I was doing then really were around the coast path and still cycling, but no major goals, I suppose. Everything else seemed to be... my focus was very much art at the time. That was just my absolute passion, I think was art. But I was still drawing the landscape walking in and drawing. You know, taking everything with me and drawing outside. Then we did the usual holidays. Walking holidays just in this country - Lake District mostly.

 

Stephie Boon  08:50

Then I had my son and it became family camping holidays on Exmoor, wild camping on Dartmoor. I think the first time I went solo wild camping was probably twelve years ago now and haven't looked back since. That's when hiking became a thing I felt I needed to do.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  09:16

So in some ways, then although you had met and identified with hiking a long time ago, would it be correct to say that you didn't really feel the need for it - you didn't identify with it as something that made you feel better in your life until midlife?

 

Stephie Boon  09:33

I think I did realise that, but I don't think I realised that it could give me the challenges that it does. And it's the challenge that I thrive on now. I think previously it was mainly enjoyment, you know about being outside and just loving nature and knowing that when I was feeling ill that was where most people might think you retreat inside, but I retreated outside. It's just where I felt the need to be. And I've always escaped to the outdoors. on my own.

 

Stephie Boon  10:12

It was my way of just being - allowing myself to just be. It wasn't, I think, until I started really wild camping on my own, that I saw that I could create these challenges, which is what excites me now. And how you can overcome personal difficulties, it's a wonderful place to step outside your comfort zone, and to show it's a really odd phrase, but to prove to yourself, what you're made of, really, and what you can do. And it's funny, I'd never thought of myself as a resilient person at all. I've never felt that I bounced back from things particularly quickly. But I realised over the years, I'm actually a very tenacious person, and I will hang on and push myself through when things are very difficult, whether that's hiking or life in general, I feel the need to just grip hard onto things. And just a sheer determination will get me through difficult things.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  10:20

It's so wonderful to hear you talking like that Stephie, because I, actually in hearing a lot of what you're saying, I feel it could be me talking, there are so many things there that I connect with, and in particular, the needing a challenge. I mean, I didn't discover until I was forty, that it was actually the challenge that I thrive on. So yeah, doing, yeah, going off long distance walking, facing some of those things that are perhaps out of my comfort zone, and that I had perhaps avoided previously, suddenly, it's like, oh, gosh, this is this is what I need. I love being outdoors. But the challenge is definitely what I need. And it sounds like yes, that it is for you too. It's fabulous.

 

Stephie Boon  12:08

I think when I hiked the Inca Trail, I'd run a business for fourteen years, and we made hand-painted kitchens and furniture. So time was very precious, you had very little free time, and I was just determined that before the age of forty, I was going to do something that was challenging, and was something I'd always dreamed of doing, which was trekking or hiking in an environment that I had never been in before. And I think when I did that, and the physical challenges are huge, you know, hiking at altitude, that you're not used to. People dropping like flies from altitude sickness, and that's really not something that you can predict. You either get, it or you don't. It's just one of those things. It's got nothing to do with fitness or health. And I was lucky, I didn't have that. So I did plod along these really high places, and the feeling of euphoria that you have when you get to the top and you look down and you think, 'I've done that, I've walked that'. That was the realisation, I think that it's actually the challenge that I love.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  13:35

But it took a while then I think to find other challenges, because of other life difficulties. Now I had a long term relationship just fell apart. I was with my son's father for twenty-three years. After the business collapsed, then we collapsed, and I think it just took a long time to find who I was amongst all that fairly negative, extremely stressful part of life. Yeah, I feel like I've come out of all of that on the other side, but there are lots of other challenges and that's due to health and finances, basically. Yeah.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  14:22

Wow, there's a lot in there that I'd like to just tease into if that's, okay?

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  14:28

All of those things that you go through as well in life, particularly that relationship split, and I can totally relate to that, because that happened to me some years ago, and at the time, I was just in the wilderness and didn't know where I was going, who I was, what I was going to do, and I just felt like my whole world had fallen apart. That was a long term relationship too. But I think now in hindsight, I can see how I've learned from it, how I've benefited from it and each of those painful episodes have just added to my colorful tapestry of life. And I talk about life as being like a tapestry. And it's a bit floppy to begin with, because we don't have many skeins of thread in that tapestry. But the more skeins of thread that are added, the stronger it becomes, and the more resilient we become. And it just builds up our coping mechanisms and our ability to be able to manage a situation next time, it might not be a similar situation. But I think it just builds us and it also makes us more aware of other people's situations, it gives us more empathy, which I think is also important as people, you know, we obviously need that.

 

Stephie Boon  14:28

Yeah.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  15:40

It's interesting, so you've talked about going through some difficult times, and then finding things that would help you. Finding yourself. Finding challenge. But you talk about fears, things that scare you on your blog, and I'd like to tease back into that in relation to what you've just been talking about. How have those fears affected you, and would you like to talk to us about what those fears are?

 

Stephie Boon  16:09

Yeah, when you suffer from regular bouts of long periods of depression, and feeling suicidal, I've had significant periods of my life where I've been in the mental health system with CPNs (community psychiatric nurse) for years and years, and one of the things that being in that situation is that it's very difficult to have a regular income, because there are periods where you can't work. I haven't worked for a very long time, because of illness, and because of another issue that I have. This is something I don't talk about a great deal, but my son has Asperger's, and it affects him mostly with really high anxiety. And that puts constraints on what I can do. I spend a lot of time anxious about him, I spend an awful lot of time being anxious about money and finances, and I am living on the bare minimum, basically, you cannot say, at all. So I have this little pot of savings. And I've been keeping it as an emergency fund. But it's really strange because this money is tiny. It's sat there for a couple of years doing nothing. And you suddenly think, 'well, what am I going to do, am I gonna leave that there for another five years and do nothing and not experience life in the way that is meaningful to me? Or am I just going to overcome the fears that I have of spending some of that money on investing in myself and my own wellbeing mental health?' And this year, I have walked three national trails using some of those savings, and it has scared the living daylights out of me. I mean, it really has because you feel well, I have nothing, what if something else goes wrong. And now I just think Well, as I said to I think a word I've always used to describe myself is 'tenacious', and I just think if something else happens, I'll just hang on in there until I can find a solution. So why not just invest in in myself and go out, jump in feet first, and do something that hopefully will inspire other people or might inspire other people. But even now just talking about spending some of that money doing hiking, I can feel myself shaking, thinking 'oh my god, what if, what if!'

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  19:01

But I'm so pleased that you did actually take some of that, to go off and do those trails. I mean, I was following you throughout the summer, and even up until just a couple of weeks ago when you finished your last walk and I could see how much you were benefitting from it. Did the fear subside whilst you are actually out on the trail?

 

Stephie Boon  19:21

Oh, I didn't give it a thought. Not a single thought! It's just when I get back home and my world feels very, very small, when I'm at home. I don't have a car. Travel is not easy using public transport. So I think when your world is small, you tend to... I particularly... focus on the negative or I focus on the more difficult things, whereas when I'm outside and you're looking at this beautiful, spacious environment, you become spacious yourself.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  20:02

I love that. I absolutely love that. When you're outside, you become spacious. And it fills your soul, doesn't it?

 

Stephie Boon  20:09

It really does, it feels like your whole body is this space to fill it up with wonderful things, whereas when I'm at home, I feel small and withered. I'm sitting here and I'm imagining a funnel on the top of my head, and trying to fill that funnel with good things. But when I'm at home, my body feels so small, and that there's not enough space to put anything else in, because I'm constantly worrying about how I'm going to get through the day, how I'm going to get through the next week. Whereas when I'm outside that just goes and you can fill up with life; with what life actually is. Where it's meaningful, where you are, where you really feel you ARE part of nature, you ARE nature. You're not separate from it, which I think is what our society forcing us into these small spaces does. It disconnects us from what we really are, which is part of nature.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  21:21

We are one hundred percent that, and a lot of people don't see that, because it's very much about the material things. We're a very commercial world, aren't we? Sadly.

 

Stephie Boon  21:31

Yes.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  21:32

Just then going back to how you feel out on a trail, compared to how you feel when you're indoors. You know, you said you're feeling very small, very withered. It sounds like you're feeling very restricted, whereas when you're outside, you're feeling free. If you are planning... so let's say you're indoors, and you've been indoors for months, but you suddenly have an idea to walk a trail, but you know, you can't do it for another, say another six weeks. If you are then focused on planning that trail, does that change your mindset? Does that change how you frame your day and how you feel.

 

Stephie Boon  22:13

Zoe, I plan NOTHING!

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  22:15

Oh Stephie, I love you!

 

Stephie Boon  22:20

It's terrible, the thing for me is complete freedom. You cannot plan for the unexpected. I think being completely free is about having no plans at all. The plans I have are the day I leave, and the day I will come back, how I'm going to travel. I've worked out roughly how many miles on average I will need to walk whilst I'm away. But then when I'm away, I might think I'm going to walk twenty-five miles today and I'll do eleven the next day, because there's somewhere I'd like to spend some time, or I might be hiking along and I'm wild camping, and you might find a wonderful place where you'd like to stop that might be, I don't know, five miles short of where you were planning to get to that day. But because you have the flexibility, and you don't have the fixed plans, you can do that.

 

Stephie Boon  23:25

So the planning for me, I think, when I'm at home is planning, when I'm going to go, how I'm going to do it, it'll be planning, and I'm really not very good at this, but planning the things that I need to take on my back, that will sustain me, give me shelter over the time that I'm away. And I've only just really begun to think, 'right well, next year, I am going to do X, Y and Z'. And I'm going to try I guess you could say that the trouble with doing what I've done this summer is that once you've had that experience, you really want more.

 

Stephie Boon  24:12

The only way I'm going to be able to do that is if I can afford the train fares. So I'm trying my best to put a plan in place so that I can afford some train fares, next year. That's where my planning comes.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  24:29

Yeah, I can understand that. And you're creative - you're creative in so many ways. So I'm sure you'll work out something that will make that happen for you. As far as the anxiety goes, and I'm really sorry to hear that you have gone down into that deepest, darkest pit that has taken you to thoughts of suicide. I know this will potentially be a trigger for quite a few people.

 

Stephie Boon  24:58

Yeah. I hope that my experiences will enable people to see that you can come through, even though in those darkest times you feel like, there's never going to be a way out.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  25:14

Do you have people? Were you're dealing with this alone?

 

Stephie Boon  25:18

I have a strong medical support. It gets that bad at times, and I know that I can always find and access that support when I need it. Whereas I think a lot of people going into realising that they need help, more help than friends or family can give, I think it's difficult to know where to go to find that. But I've always had access to that through my GP, through the mental health team, psychiatrists, therapists, all of these things, but I went through a particularly low period last year, and I changed medication again, which is a constant theme. I changed medication again earlier this year. And it takes a few months for that to hit, for that to work. But I think that after so many decades of this kind of illness, I'm only just beginning to realise the thought processes or what's happening around me that indicate that I need to seek help before I get further down into that cycle. And that can be things like, I might notice that all I'm eating is bread and pasta - so carbs. Or that I really don't feel like going outside. That's a big one for me, when I know that the thing that I know, helps maintain mood at a reasonable level, when I feel that the motivation to do that, the energy to help myself in that way, I know that I need to go and find help.

 

Stephie Boon  27:19

So, to go back to the beginning of this complete ramble, my hope is that if somebody feels that I'm talking about triggering things, that I am proof, I suppose that you can come through these things - again and again. And that's not to diminish how difficult it is, because it's really tough. It's really tough.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  27:46

So you can get through it, I get a sense that you're saying that you CAN get through it. It's not necessarily something that goes away. It's something that you are living with.

 

Stephie Boon  27:55

Yeah.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  27:55

But you learn to recognise the warning signs, and you now know what to do, where to get help, how to handle your own mental health, to ensure that you don't end up in the bottom of that pit again.

 

Stephie Boon  28:12

Yeah, yeah and I think I wouldn't wish this on anyone, but I think that if you go through cycles of depression, constantly, throughout a life, then that's what you need to do. That's what I've learned through therapy, is help to understand the changes around me to notice them, so that I can step in and help myself.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  28:41

Good, yeah.

 

Stephie Boon  28:41

Basically.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  28:43

Yeah, well, yes, so that is an important one, isn't it? And did you find that things became harder for you throughout your son's childhood years, both with your mental health and being able to get outside and do those things that you needed or wanted to do? Could you get out for walks? Could you handle things when your son was young, because obviously, having children is a challenge in its own right, but having a son with Asperger's is another layer of challenge as well.

 

Stephie Boon  29:18

He wasn't diagnosed until he was seventeen, so I just thought he was a pain in the bum.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  29:29

That's probably how half the teachers described him as well!

 

Stephie Boon  29:33

Yeah. Oh, yeah. When you look back and his father has Asperger's, and again, he was diagnosed as an adult, but when you look back, you can see all the... you can see it there. I mean, it's as plain as day. But it wasn't really until... and I think this is quite typical of Asperger's and autism. It wasn't until my son went through big changes in HIS life, so changing schools, moving from school to sixth form college, and then on to university; it's when those things happen, that the stress that you go through is huge. Because understanding what he's dealing with, it's like, trying to understand an alien.

 

Stephie Boon  30:27

Try as you might, you can never completely put yourself in someone else's shoes, whatever their shoes might be, whether it's chronic pain, or illness or something like Asperger's. I split with my son's dad when when my son was ten, and it was probably actually easier in some respects, because we co-parented. So my son was with me for a week, and then he was with his dad for a week, and we lived only three miles apart from each other. But because I had that week, that was when I was able to walk, get out on the coast, and just recharge, I suppose as batches. But it was never, I think that was definitely more walking for health, rather than walking for a 'challenge', and to fill my soul. I recognise that it does fill my soul.

 

Stephie Boon  31:34

One of the things, it's a bit mad, really, but if I notice that my mood is dropping, I think everybody tells you that walking is good for mental health. I've got to go walking every single day. Then I go into overdrive and I'm walking fifteen miles every day. And it's just getting the balance right, isn't it? But yeah, so when my son was younger, I think walking was more about health. Obviously it was pleasurable, but it was much more about maintaining an even keel through life rather than the challenges that I know I've always enjoyed. And I've always enjoyed doing them alone.

 

Stephie Boon  32:25

I think actually, I was thinking about this prior to this chat with you. When I was young, I was a teenager, a young teenager. And I remember thinking, I'd asked someone to do something with me, I can't even remember what it was now, but they didn't want to do it. And I remember thinking, Well I have to do this on my own then, because if I don't do things on my own, there's no guarantee that somebody else has the same interests as me or wants to do the same things as me. So am I going to deny myself the things that might be pleasurable or fulfilling simply because I don't have somebody to hold my hand? I think that that has been my mantra I suppose throughout my life, as you cannot expect somebody else to come along with you, because you need someone to hold your hand. You have to jump in and be your own friend. That sort of manifests itself in the simplest of things, like I will go to the cinema on my own and I have friends who say how do you do that? How on earth can you go on your own? I think 'I go to a ticket booth, I buy a ticket, I go and sit in the dark. and I watch a film!'

 

Stephie Boon  33:44

Or you know, how can you get into a pub on your own? How can you go to a cafe on your own? It's just those little things that then enable you to think, 'oh yeah, I can do that. I can go swimming on my own I can do this on my own maybe I can do the next bigger thing on my own'. Because if I want to go wild camping, which is what I love, absolutely love and I did a fair bit of it on Dartmoor with my son and his dad. And I thought after we split up will this just stop now because I don't have somebody to do it with? And I thought 'no, it damn well doesn't! You get out there and you do it on your own'. And it's been THE most liberating, wonderful thing. To know that you're doing something that you love and nobody else has been affected by your needs to fulfill your own needs.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  34:52

Yes, but I remember how freeing how liberating it was when I wild camped for the first time and then I just thought 'why have I left it so long. This is absolutely amazing whatever was I frightened of?'

 

Stephie Boon  35:04

Yeah.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  35:05

And what I love hearing you talk, Stephie is, you know, you're somebody who clearly was resilient as a child as a teenager. I mean, you had those foundations there already. And I know, actually, I guess a lot of children do - not all - but a lot of children do. But it does break down as we get older, yeah, by culture, or by the people we're with, or just by chemical makeup in our body. But what I love so much hearing you talk, is to hear the fact that you still have these struggles, in one hand. You are somebody who is very open about struggling with their mental health. And yet, in the other hand, you are fighting everything that's in this hand... in the right hand you are fighting it, and you're saying, 'No! I have got to go and do this. Because if I don't do this, I might not get the chance to, because other people may not want to come with me, why should I off-load MY dreams and MY ideas onto other people? This is my thing!' And I love that those two actually work in harmony, they work in balance with one another. Because, you know, I come from a family where my mother suffers with mental health problems and has done for years and years. So I understand, and I understand from her standpoint, that she does retreat indoors and she doesn't go out. She can't now because of her age. You know, she is housebound. But for many, many years, she wasn't able to go out because her head told her she couldn't go out. And this is what I am just so pleased that you have found that - that you have found a way to say no, my head is actually bringing me down. I know I need to go out.

 

Stephie Boon  37:00

Yeah, it's just, I still go out with constraints. As I said, my son has severe anxiety. So when I'm hiking, I'm having to... I get text from him. Where are you? Where are you wild camping? He's never happier than when I go to a campsite. And I'm never more miserable than when I'm on a campsite!

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  37:32

Yes. I know that feeling.

 

Stephie Boon  37:35

We've worked out... I mean, he's twenty-three. His is no longer a child, but he does live at home. So we have this agreement that I will let him know where I am, so that he feels safe and secure. But I still have the freedom, I suppose too. And I have to say this, Zoe - sometimes I do pretend there was no reception! Which is terrible!

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  38:08

No, for your own mental health and your own sanity, sometimes you do need to switch off, don't you? And it's a gentle way of giving him that message that well, yeah, maybe we've not been in contact today, but I'm sure everything's okay.

 

Stephie Boon  38:23

I have to say that most of that will be during the day. If he contacts me during the day. I just think 'No, this is absolutely MY time, and we've agreed that I will tell you where I am when I've pitched up my tent, and I'm sticking to that'.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  38:43

So there's something else I want to ask you about, Stephie, because I know you've had many challenges throughout your life. We've touched on those, but there's something that we haven't discussed yet, and something certainly for midlife women that, you know, as we go through from our forties upwards starts to become more apparent, or we start hearing more or we're just more aware, and that is the menopause. We had a little conversation just before we started recording, and I actually WISH we had recorded that because you told me your age. There was this deathly silence because I did not know you were the age you said are, and in my notes that I made last night about the sorts of things that I wanted to touch on with you, the menopause certainly wasn't one of them, because I thought you were in your early forties and nowhere near that yet! But actually, that was very dismissive of me. I was making assumptions and even if you had been in your early forties, from what you told me, this would have still counted. So first off Stephie, would you mind sharing how old you are, please?

 

Stephie Boon  39:55

No. I am fifty-six and I think when you introduced me, I think you said that I planned to walk all our national trails by the time I'm sixty. And I think that before you knew my age, you probably thought I had plenty of time...

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  40:14

I did! Because I read through your bio last night and thought oh well, she's got years to do that. Like, one a year...!

 

Stephie Boon  40:25

It's creeping up incredibly quickly. I'm going to have to save a lot of money and do a lot of miles.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  40:33

How many trails? Is it eighteen national trails?

 

Stephie Boon  40:36

There are fifteen. But there are some in Scotland, which if you look at the Long Distance Walking Association, that you can include some of those and get some major certificate. Anyway, yes, I'm fifty-six.

 

Stephie Boon  40:56

But I went through the menopause early, and I was thirty-eight when I really noticed, I think, perimenopause.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  41:05

That was when you were walking the Inca Trail then?

 

Stephie Boon  41:07

Yes, and I remember at the time, I went to my GP, I had no idea what was happening to my body at the time. But I went to see my GP and she gave me some magic pills, that meant I wouldn't have a period whilst I was away, so that was fine. But this is quite gross, but I discovered that I was in that phase of life actually, whilst I was wild camping in, I think it was Dartmoor somewhere. People really don't talk about the details of menopause, or perimenopause. But heavy bleeding is part and parcel of that, and I woke up completely out of the blue, literally, in a pool of blood, that made me look like I was a murder victim. I just thought, 'this isn't right. This is something I need to speak to my GP about'.

 

Stephie Boon  42:14

So having no idea that it could be perimenopause, I went to my GP, who I knew, and she was asking all these questions. 'Do you have hot flushes?' I've had maybe a couple but you know, it's just hot in the office. 'Do you have night sweats?' Yeah, but it's just hot under the duvet. 'Is there a history of early menopause in your family?' Yeah, I think my Nan went through an early menopause and she said, 'well, I'm really sorry'. And I looked at her and I thought sorry, about what what are you talking about? I mean, it really did not register at all that she was telling me that this was what was happening. And I came away in absolute floods of tears. And I don't know why it was it felt so devastating at the time, but it really did. It was just, I think, possibly I'd wanted another child, even though I was quite late for that. But the difficult thing came and I don't know if it's different now for people because obviously this was quite a long time ago now. But I felt incredibly alone at that period of time because none of my friends or contemporaries were going through this. They had no idea what happens to you or how... oh my god, if I think about my moods, not just the physical things, but your mental health and how it affects you.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  43:54

Could you sleep?

 

Stephie Boon  43:55

No, I was always awake. I'd sleep on towels, trying to soak up the sweat that some people have. Now, I know, talking to friends now, but that's not unusual. But at the time, I had absolutely no idea. There were no books, everything that was written about menopause was aimed at people in their fifties and I felt I had no connection to that. They were talking about things like Empty Nest Syndrome. My child was FIVE!

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  44:36

Gosh, that puts it into perspective then doesn't it? Good grief. And so how long did that period of perimenopause last for you, Stephie?

 

Stephie Boon  44:46

I think I was forty-two/forty-three maybe, when I had my last period. So it's quite common, apparently that with early menopause, that the period of perimenopause can actually go on for ten years. So on and off for a long period of time. But I say luckily, I feel quite lucky, that didn't happen.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  45:17

Five years. Yes. Sounds like.

 

Stephie Boon  45:19

Yeah, maybe five, seven, on and off, it was. I tell you what, once you're through the other side, it's an absolute gift. It really is. I mean, especially if you're an outdoors person, you don't have to worry about dealing with any of that. So when younger women or women, my age, going through it now, talking about the difficulties of going on long distance hikes, and how they're managing menstruation, I haven't had to deal with that for so long, I've forgotten what that's like! But I don't ever recall it stopping me from getting outside and doing the things that I love to do outside. It's whether that's, I mean, I had a horrible experience wild camping. But it didn't stop me going wild camping. There's nothing in the world that would stop me doing that. You learn how unpredictable. It's a bit like camping, or hiking, really, there are things that you cannot predict, and you don't know what's going to happen. You just have to make the best preparations that you can. It's like whether that's carrying everything that you might need, just in case, or knowing where campsites are, just in case.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  46:44

And it's a level of planning - I know you don't like planning - but it is a level of planning, isn't it? Knowing that you've got that backup... mitigating risk...

 

Stephie Boon  46:54

An escape route!

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  46:58

Well, we've got probably two more things that I would like to ask you before we wrap up, and we're coming towards the end of time now. I am really interested to know, given all of the things that we've talked about, how do you give yourself encouragement during those hardest times? Do you have any methods of self talk? You know, what encouragement do you give yourself? What mantras, I mean, you have given us one mantra already, which was amazing. But is there is there something else that you talk to yourself about when you're going through those difficult times?

 

Stephie Boon  47:33

When things are really dark and difficult. It's the mantra I've already mentioned is: "you are tenacious. You have proved to yourself over and over again, that you can get through this. You are tenacious."

 

Stephie Boon  47:49

Remember that. Tell yourself that, and that's what I do. Actually, I was thinking about this the other day - this absolutely cracked me up when I heard it the first time. Janet Street-Porter, of all people, I heard an interview with her a long time ago now. And she said, "as soon as I wake up, as soon as my head comes off that pillow, I tell myself how brilliant I am. Because no other bloody bugger is going to tell you."

 

Stephie Boon  48:14

I thought at the time that's so funny, but there is no way I could ever tell myself I'm brilliant, because I just don't believe it. So I think that for me, a mantra has to be something I absolutely believe about myself, and that maybe I've just forgotten and need a reminder. And it is to remind myself that I WILL get through whatever is thrown at me. There is always a way through because I have proved it to myself already. So I know that that's a fact.

 

Stephie Boon  48:53

This is a bit daft as well, but when I'm in a good space, you know, I think a lot of people are very negative, that they have a very negative body image. And I know that when my mood is low, I can't bear the sight of myself. And I walked down the streets I catch a glimpse of myself in a reflection of a shop window, and I would just berate myself. Now whenever I catch myself in a reflection somewhere, I smile. And I just think, I look at myself as if I'm meeting a friend or a stranger. I may not be able to talk to myself that way. But I will look at myself that way. And if somebody I knew was coming towards me, I would smile and say hello. So I always smile at myself. It's probably this weird random woman walking down the street grinning at myself.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  49:52

I think that is just lovely. And actually if I can be so forward as to push that a step further. If you saw a friend walking towards you, wearing a beautiful dress or wearing some wonderful walking gear, even, you would probably say to them, "oh, hello! You look wonderful today! Oh, you look gorgeous! OR, you ARE beautiful". And so yeah, there you go. I have said it Stephie.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  50:23

It's that little voice on your shoulder, isn't it and the more that the Negative Nancy on one shoulder is telling you these things in your ear, I know it seeps into your psyche. And so somehow you have to find a way of having Positive Polly, I've just made those two up, on the other side, that is just going to feed you with good stuff. And if saying it doesn't work, then perhaps writing it down will. You know, maybe having something that you write every day that tells you...

 

Stephie Boon  50:53

I have named the negative person that I have felt pushes me up against the wall and shouts all this negative stuff so loudly that I believe it, as Benito... as in Mussolini. And now I tell Mussolini - Benito, that I'm not listening anymore.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  51:19

Get lost! Get lost.

 

Stephie Boon  51:21

La, la, la, la, I'm not listening. But it is hard. It's very hard when you're used to having that voice in your head that is so intense and so loud, I found that the only way I can overcome it is to disassociate myself from it. To call it, it's like another person inside my head and not having that person in my head. Why would anybody want Benito in my head. It's finding those coping strategies, those counteractions and finding what works for you, and certainly grinning at myself randomly in the reflections is positive.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  52:04

So the very last thing that I want to ask you, Stephie is the question that I ask everybody else: do you have a HeadRightOut Moment that you could share with us? Something where you have stepped out of your comfort zone and done something that you never thought possible, you never thought you were capable of? But you did it, and you've benefitted from it?

 

Stephie Boon  52:27

Yes. In recent years, I was going hiking, I think probably for a week on the South West Coast Path, on the north coast, sort of in Devon somewhere, and somebody I'd met and didn't know. But I met them said, oh, I'd like to join you for a day for a walk. And I said, yeah, that would be great, come along. He was actually based in Devon and I met him  on a course that I was doing, which was that I trained as a lowland leader, and he was on the same course. And I said, Yeah, come for a walk for a day. So I got this message saying, I've rearranged my entire work week, and I can now come for the week, and I was floored. Absolutely speechless. Dumbstruck. I just did not know what to say, or how to say, "No".

 

Stephie Boon  53:25

So this man came on this walk with me, wild camping, and the entire time, I felt unbelievably passive aggressive. Was hanging behind thinking, if only it was legal to push you over the cliff, he'd be gone! He talked about hiking on a Greek island somewhere and how much he loved this, and he just constantly talked about it, which meant I didn't feel I had the time to enjoy where I was, to be in the moment.

 

Stephie Boon  53:58

So when I got home from that, and I recounted this story to friends, they said, well, you'll definitely know how to say "no" now, don't you? And I thought, this is my HeadRightOut Moment. I now know when to say "no", and how to say "no". I know that that's possibly not the kind of moment that you were thinking of, but for me, that was a major 'I-need-to-do-this-for-myself-and-I-need-to-do-it-without-compromise'. And that was a big compromise. It was that moment of understanding. I don't walk with people on long distance hikes like that, for this reason, and I let it happen because I didn't know how to say "no".

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  54:46

There's actually two sides to that, isn't there? Because you've learned that yes, you need to be able to say no, and I think that will become another HeadRightOut Moment, at the point where you are put in that position - and that possibly hasn't happened yet. But yeah the HeadRightOut Moment that I see there is actually just going ahead and walking with this guy for a week. But underneath it all you're all gr,gr,grrrrrrrrrrr!

 

Stephie Boon  55:13

It was terrible.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  55:14

How on earth did you cope?

 

Stephie Boon  55:15

I am not an early morning person at all, and when I am camping, it takes me ages to pack everything up because I feel like a complete zombie. Just so slow, and he sent me a text one morning saying, "wakey-wakey!"

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  55:35

Argggh!

 

Stephie Boon  55:36

Absolutely. I was so livid, and I didn't say anything. I just kept silent and held all this anger. I thought why should I be doing this? I will never let that happen again.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  55:57

I wonder if he thought you were a moody wotsit.

 

Stephie Boon  56:00

Quite likely. Quite likely.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  56:02

That's the polite version... a moody wotsit!

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  56:07

Well, Stephie This has been an absolute treat. We've had a chance to catch up. You've shared a lot of wonderful experiences with us and with me that I haven't heard before. And I just hope that at some point soon here, we actually get to meet face-to-face and go on a LITTLE walk together. It's alright - not a long distance one! Just a little one.

 

Stephie Boon  56:30

 I wouldn't mind you Zoe, at all! I think it was just this particular person.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  56:36

I wouldn't want you to be passive aggressive with me - haha!

 

Stephie Boon  56:39

No I wouldn't, I wouldn't!

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  56:41

Well, if I'm coming down to Cornwall, and I'm coming down your way, I will give you a ring. I have your number now.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  56:50

I HAVE YOUR NUMBER... hehe...

 

Stephie Boon  56:54

When I'm planning to walk the Pembrokeshire Coast Path, this is my plan for next year so I will give you a call.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  57:01

That would be fabulous. So, Stephie, where can people find you on social media and online?

 

Stephie Boon  57:07

I have a website and blog called 10MileHike, which is all one word, and that's a 1, 0. You can find me mostly on Instagram, where it's TenMileHike again, but unfortunately it had to be spelt T.E.N - 10MileHike, because the number had actually gone. They are the main places that you can find me. But I've also just set up a Ko-Fi account and it's like a mini-blog so I can post little bits and pieces.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  57:44

Is that where people can go and buy you a coffee if they want.

 

Stephie Boon  57:46

Yes. Yeah,

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  57:47

That's brilliant. Yes. Well, thank you so much. This has been wonderful and I hope people go and check you out on Instagram and do go and check out Stephie's website because she's completely overhauled it. It is fabulous. There is SO much information on there and she's got a beautiful way of writing.

 

Stephie Boon  57:49

Thank you.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  58:01

It flows and I was chuffed to be included in her Woman Afoot Series, as well, where I talked about my walking experiences there too.

 

Stephie Boon  58:16

Zoe, it was a pleasure. It's been an absolute pleasure. Nerves have completely gone.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  58:22

Yaaay! Stephie Boon, thank you very much.

 

Stephie Boon  58:25

Thank you. Take care, Zoe!

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  58:35

Oh my word. What a raw and honest conversation that was with Stephie. Perfect for World Menopause Day too, which was the 18th of October. And as this goes live on the 20th of October, it's the same week. It's all about encouraging conversations surrounding menopause. I know a lot of thoughts may be generated regarding mental health too, from the conversations that Stephie and I had about her difficulties with mental health. And I hope that if you have any issues or any worries about a friend that you will take a moment to contact them, ask them how they are, see if there's anything you can do to help them, and perhaps if it's you, maybe you'll seek help. You will look for the support that you need... if you don't already have that support. We are here for you. There's so many people out there, that are here for you. And I hope that you will gain some reassurance from listening to Stephie's story.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  59:36

Now I had a back-and-forth text conversation with Stephie, later the same evening. We recorded this last week and I'd like to share with you some of the text that I received from her, because I think you'll find this funny. So here was the text:

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  59:51

Oh dear, Zoe, did I say I was fifty-six? Ummmm... I can't remember, but if I did, it was wishful thinking, because I'm fifty-seven!

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:00:02

So I replied, No, really? That's so funny. I'll make a note of it in the end reflections. Am I allowed to put it down to post-menopausal brain?

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:00:14

And Stephie says, I did say I was fifty-six, then... haha, what am I like? She then says I was fifty-six when I hiked the South Downs Way, so it was definitely a forty-year anniversary. That bit was right. My birthday is in mid-August so I was fifty-six when I hiked the Cotswold Way too. Anything after that, I've obviously blanked out. She says, feel free to blame it on dyscalculia - no diagnosis but if she had a test, Stephie says she'd be 'off the scale'. Do you know it's so easy to get numbers muddled up, I do it all the time. And Stephie says she gets her son's birth date muddled up, I get numbers muddled up too. It's just one of those things, so I'm not even sure I'm gonna put that down to post-menopause, but I'm sure a lot of us can relate to this. So Stephie is fifty-seven years old, and she didn't realise it. That is SO funny. But oddly enough, I remember not being able to decide if I was forty-seven or forty-eight a few years back, so it's not just you Stephie. Don't worry.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:01:22

Now I have had a HeadRightOut Moment sent through to me by Bea, and this was a real joy for me to read:

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:01:30

Ten Peak Challenge. I still remember my first mountain. We were on a girl's trip exploring Scotland when we decided it would be a good idea to hike Ben Nevis. I don't think I've ever complained so much. How could hiking up a hill be so hard? Once down, I vowed never to do it again.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:01:51

Luckily, I'd forgotten that promise when a few years later, I felt the need for a challenge. I don't like doing what everyone else does. So I decided to make my own. "I know, I'll summit the ten highest Munroes, in five days."

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:02:06

How hard could it be?

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:02:09

I should add that my total mountaineering experience was still only Ben Nevis in trainers, but not one to be put off by it, I spent the next five months getting fit, buying the right gear, learning to read a map (ish), and generally falling in love with hiking.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:02:28

I thought I was ready. But I wasn't. I was not prepared for my boots to fall apart on day three. Or to find myself in the middle of a plateau in whiteout conditions, having completely forgotten how to understand my compass.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:02:43

I did not expect for it to rain so hard that my phone would stop working from water damage, or for the map to be whipped out of my hands by gale force winds leaving me stranded with just my memory to keep me going. I had not expected my mind to fight me every step of the way:  "Stop, turn around!", "It's too hard!", "You aren't going to make it." This challenge showed me that we are capable of what we set our minds to. That physical challenges are not just about physical ability, but more so the ability to convince your brain that you DO have what it takes. That you can make it. It taught me that pain doesn't last forever, that it fades from our memories.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:03:26

I know I was in pain for much of it, but that's long forgotten. What I remember is the fear of having to cross the CMD arête, that's Carn Mor Dearg arête, despite being scared of heights. And the exhilarating feeling when I got to the other side, I remember sitting on my final peak, crying tears of joy, because I had made it despite everything that had gone wrong. I remember running as fast as I could towards the last gondola of the day to get me down from Aonach Mòr, having had to change my entire route. due to bad weather. I made it to the gondola just in time, only for it to stop halfway down the mountain. It gently swung back and forth for half an hour before setting off again. I thought I'd been forgotten about I knew that the Ten Peaks were going to be a physical challenge, but I never realised I would be putting my mental resilience to the test in that way. But it turns out we CAN achieve what we set our minds to.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:04:29

Indeed we can, Bea!

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:04:32

Wow! Bea has sent me three photographs which I'm going to put in the show notes. And the last photo where she's looking up with this vast view that just falls away behind her.

She's above the clouds and you can see a loch in the distance. And she just has that look of somebody who's completely energy-spent but deliriously happy.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:04:58

Yes, there's one of the pictures, she's standing, I'm assuming it's at the summit, with her arms raised and her poles dangling from her wrists. And it looks like it pretty much is a whiteout. So thank you, Bea, for sending that in. I really appreciate all of these HeadRightOut Moments that people are sending in. It just allows us to share and celebrate even more how important it is for us to push ourselves - push ourselves beyond what we think we're capable of doing. And that HeadRightOut Moment has clearly made Bea a whole ton stronger than she thought she was.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:05:38

Now if you'd like to go, follow Bea she is on the socials as at B, B EA, underscore adventurous, underscore, that's Instagram. So @bea_adventurous_ and her blog is bea-adventurous.com. And that's actually bea hyphen adventurous.com. And she talks all about her travels and the things that she's been up to over the last few years. It's a really great blog.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:06:16

Okay, well I have a little request today, to ask if you lovely people who have been following and listening to the show, if you could possibly rate and review and follow the podcast to help with the visibility of the show. HeadRightOut exceeded five hundred downloads last week in nineteen countries, which I'm delighted about. I've been excitedly watching the map to see if we can get into the twentieth country. But I've just been amazed at how quickly this has grown in the three weeks since I launched. So thank you all for listening and supporting me and thank you for all of your lovely messages and your posts, your likes, your shares and even the emojis. If it's just a few emojis, I just know that you're there with me, and they're keeping me fuelled and believing that this IS the right path and that HeadRightOut IS needed. It is needed to encourage you to head out of your comfort zone and create an armour of resilience, that will help keep your head right and healthy in the outdoors.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  1:07:30

HeadRightOut Hugs to you all.

Jo Moseley promotes positivity to a midlife audience as a writer, speaker, mid-life adventurer, and award-winning film-maker. Jo says that joy is simply knowing there is a blue sky above the clouds, which many women will relate to. After losing her sense of self, Jo realised that she desperately needed to do something to help herself and to rediscover that joy. She talks with Zoe, sharing honestly about her experience with the menopause and how the grief of miscarriages, divorce and the death of her mother washed over her like waves. Jo offers golden advice for dealing with the many pivotal stages in our lives as women, often through exercise and adventure. She talks about how she dealt with her own grief through movement using rowing, and 'not fighting the grief but just recognising the grief'. While heading right out on a huge challenge to stand-up paddleboard from coast to coast, 162 miles from Liverpool to Goole, Jo realises that the success is not in the completion of the journey, but that 'the triumph is in the trying'. Although she finds some days hard, she knows that the slog bit in the middle is where the magic happens. Jo is such an inspirational individual and exudes empathy, joy, care and a ‘Yes I Can’ attitude from every pore.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  00:24

Hello, and welcome back to the HeadRightOut Podcast. My name is Zoe Langley-Wathen, and I am here to help encourage you to step out of your comfort zone, doing things that scare you, building your resilience in the outdoors. We have conversations with resilient women, and particularly today, I am so excited to bring you an interview with Jo Moseley. Now although I recorded this episode with Jo back in August, I'm only just publishing it now. Jo promotes positivity to a midlife audience. Her Instagram account is @healthyhappy50, and obviously that speaks volumes. Jo says that joy is knowing there is a blue sky above the clouds. For some women I know that is really going to make sense to them.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  01:14

After losing her sense of self, Jo realised that she needed to do something to help herself, for herself, and to rediscover joy. Now I was so moved by Jo's story, I cried when I watched her film 'Brave Enough'. Her authenticity touched my very core. I loved her honesty about her experience with the menopause and how grief came to her in waves. While it was tough at times, it's perhaps a reassurance to other women that there is hope, and if they're feeling similar things, it means you're actually not going crazy. So enjoy the episode. It's a real treat, and a total honour for me to be able to call Jo a friend.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  02:05

Okay, well welcome everybody. I am really excited because we have a very special lady here today, to speak to us. I have Jo Moseley. I chatted with Joe a couple of times and I feel like I've built up such a relationship with her already, even though it's only over the telephone or over social media. But I am so excited to actually speak to her, almost face-to-face. So this is not quite in person but it as close in person as we've got yet. So Jo is a mum of two sons. They are aged 24 and 20, and they live on the edge of the Yorkshire Dales. Now she describes herself as a beach cleaner, joy encourager, and a midlife adventurer. In August 2019. Jo became the first woman to SUP, that's stand up paddleboard, coast-to-coast, 162 miles along the Leeds and Liverpool canal, picking up litter, fundraising, and raising awareness of the problems of single-use plastic.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  03:04

Now Jo loves writing and speaking about adventure and wellbeing. She also makes tiny films about the joy of the outdoors for our mental health, particularly after losing her mum and experiencing a difficult menopause. Her films 'Finding Joy' and 'Found at Sea' have both won awards. Jo's recently launched a podcast called The Joy of SUP - The Paddleboarding Sunshine Podcast and if you'd like to listen to the podcast, there will be a link in the show notes. A documentary film about her coast-to-coast adventure has also just been released to great reception and four, sell-out online screenings which I was at the second one I believe, and it's called 'Brave Enough - A Journey Home To Joy'. There will be a link to the trailer, also in the show notes.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  03:52

In addition, Jo has a newsletter called 'Postcards of Joy - Stories To Lift The Soul', and there will be a link to the Postcards of Joy also in the show notes. You know, this is amazing because all the way through this, I just sense and feel that there's this element of joy and positivity, and thoughtfulness, care and kindness about not just Jo Moseley but about Jo's brand. And so yes, Joe, welcome to the podcast!

 

Jo Moseley  04:25

That's really kind. That's everything. Yeah, kindness, joy, encouragement. That's exactly what I try and promote really, and to a midlife audience in particular, although I get a lot of younger women as well saying, oh, watching you and the people that you share means it encourages me to know that it doesn't all end at thirty or forty or fifty.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  04:47

I think that's important as well, isn't it because our younger women are at some point going to become older women, and they need to have that message that there isn't an end to adventures, there isn't an end to the fun, there isn't an end and they've got lots to look forward to, and I think that's such a wonderful message that you impart to them.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  05:08

So you have got that great list of achievements all wrapped up in the word 'joy'. But where did it all start? Because I know there's quite a lot of experiences that you've been through this got you to this point.

 

Jo Moseley  05:20

Yeah. So I think the joy is really important to me, because joy for me is knowing that there is blue skies above the clouds. It's that sort of sunshine, whatever the weather is, and it's finding that internal sunshine and it comes really from a very personal experience, in that I lost that understanding that there was sunshine within. That joy was there, whatever I was particularly going through at the time. It wasn't like just a one moment, it was over a few years, I really lost my sense of self, my sense of joy. I lost what made me happy outside of my roles as a daughter, mother, sister, friend. Those roles always bring me joy, that's a given. But I'd lost my sense of joy outside those roles. It all kind of came to a bit of a crashing when I just burst into tears in the biscuit aisle and just said to my boys, I can't cope. I just can't do this anymore. That wasn't the first time I burst into tears, and also not the last, but it was just that one moment where I just hit that rock bottom, really. From then I started to learn how to find my joy again.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  06:31

Wow. So the meltdown in the biscuit aisle. Was that a whole culmination of things... life kind of getting on top of you? Was there something that triggered it?

 

Jo Moseley  06:42

I think that there was a lot of things. One, I was a middle-aged mum, I was 48 at the time and a single mum kind of juggling all the things doing what I could for my boys.  Both mum and dad were going through chemotherapy. So dad has had breast, bowel and skin cancer, and mum was being treated for lymphoma. And then on top of that, but not realising that I was also going through the perimenopause. So I wasn't sleeping, I had night sweats, heart palpitations, incredible anxiety, tinnitus, itchy legs, aching bones and joints, cold flashes, you know the whole, I think there's thirty-eight different symptoms, and I could tick off almost all of them, except hot flashes, I don't get hot flashes. And so that was the background to these other things that were were pretty stressful at the time. That moment was just when it all came to a... it wasn't that it just came to a head. It was that moment, I guess, because I had cried in supermarkets. And I had been upset. But I think it was the moment which then turned me from thinking I've just got to keep going to, I probably need to do something about this. With that recognition that there was a problem. And the first time I vaguely asked somebody for help, or vaguely even mentioned to somebody that I wasn't really managing everything very well. So I think like many women of our generation, the sense that you just have to keep going was very, very, very much part of the way I looked at my life. And also, as a single mom, I had that terrible belief that I had to do everything a thousand times better, because I didn't want to be seen as as not coping. So it was one moment that just represented a lot of moments.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  08:34

So yes, Supermum comes into mind that isn't it you you just feel like you have to be Supermum, and you can't do it. You're going through all those things, but particularly then with your parents care as well, and the worry for them. Yeah, it's such a difficult time. So you mentioned to somebody that you needed help?

 

Jo Moseley  08:55

I just said a friend of mine because mum and dad were obviously really busy with their own appointments, I didn't want to worry them. So I just said to a friend, in that sort of joking way, "haha, I was crying in the supermarket" and just as a way to sort of gently let somebody else into that circle of trust, really. And she said "how much exercise do you do?", and I said, "well, you know, I spend all my life at the rugby pitch, but I'm not playing rugby". She said that she had an old indoor rowing machine, and did I want to borrow it, because exercise might help me sleep. And I hadn't had a really good night's sleep for years and it had nothing to do with the boys. You know, they were way past that stage. It was just worry and anxiety, and what I realised now all the sort of hormonal changes that I was going through. So she lent me this indoor rowing machine and it really changed things. So yes, it was just at that moment where you say, I don't think I'm handling this as well as I could be and I need some help. Which is just as well.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  09:58

And that exercise. Gosh, it's exercise and focus, isn't it? So you suddenly you have a new focus and something that takes you out of that place that has been causing your anxiety. So when you're on the rowing machine, did you immediately think, 'okay, I need to make this into a challenge for myself,' or were you just enveloped in that wonderful feeling of moving your body and being able to sleep? Where did it transition from being exercise that was helping your mental health into suddenly, 'okay, I need to make this a bigger thing that I'm then going to completely focus on and take it a step further'? Where did that transition happen?

 

Jo Moseley  10:40

At first, it was just so I could sleep, and within a couple of weeks, I was sleeping and so life just felt so much better. And I felt so much better. And then my mum... so that was May 2013... and then my mum died on the 21st of December 2013. But what I realised was that as we were doing all the stuff around her funeral, and all things like that,but I continued to row. It was never about getting fit or anything like that. My technique wasn't particularly good, I didn't do anything brilliantly. But it was just that rhythm of having a place to go, but also having a sense of... I sort of say it and we say this in the film... it was like the grief that I'd had through my life. I think a lot of us, you know, you don't get to your mid life without things happening. I had the grief of miscarriages, of my divorce, which I've never really talked about, of just feeling like I failed everybody. And these things, then along with the grief of obviously Mum, had just settled in my bones. You know, it was like in my bone marrow, so to speak. And the movement helped me move that, (sounds a bit woo-woo), but the movement helped me move that grief out of the core of my bones and somehow exhale it.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  12:03

Oh you've started me off.

 

Jo Moseley  12:06

Sorry

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  12:07

No, please don't apologise. It's really powerful.

 

Jo Moseley  12:11

That's what it did it, and I've since read articles about Elizabeth Gilbert, who wrote 'Eat, Pray, Love' and 'Big Magic'. She talked about dancing at her, I don't know if it was her wife's or her partner, I don't they were officially married, but when her partner died when she died, they danced at her wake, or in the days afterwards. And I just thought, yeah, that's what they were doing. It wasn't dancing for joy. It was dancing and moving to get that grief out of their bodies or recognise that. Acknowledge there was grief and anxiety in their bodies. That's what the rowing did for me. And so after I had bereavement counselling, where the gentleman said to me, "how do you feel?" And I said to him," I feel like I'm on a rickety old boat in the middle of a lake. My old life is the shoreline, and I need to get back to that old life. I want that stability. I want to know what's, what. Everything has been turned into a new world. My mum who was so central to our lives is no longer here, and I need to find a way to get back to some stability". And he said to me, "what do you need to do?", and (metaphorically, obviously), I said, "I need to sit down, I need to stop waving from the, from the boat, and I need to row my way back to the shoreline". And obviously, I meant it metaphorically, it was just a way to get myself back to the shore and then establish a new life for the boys and myself, and my dad and my sister, etc.

 

Jo Moseley  13:37

Then three or four weeks later, I decided that I was going to row a million metres, a marathon for Macmillan, who had supported Mum and Dad and you know, have continued to support Dad. And so it went from really just an idea into a thing in about three weeks with absolutely zero planning. Yeah, that's kind of the way I do things.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  13:59

Sometimes it's the best way because then you have less time to overthink it.

 

Jo Moseley  14:05

Yeah, just sort of decided it was what I wanted to do. So it was just a process. I never set out to get fit. I never set out to... I just was allowing my body and my soul to teach me what I needed to do next. And then I rowed the million metres of marathon, and I did the marathon, and two half marathons. I did the marathon on the first anniversary of her death and five days before my fiftieth birthday.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  14:28

Wow. And so that's, you know, a way to mark your fiftieth birthday but also to acknowledge your Mum's death, acknowledge the grief, again, it's another transition through into the next stages.

 

Jo Moseley  14:41

Yeah, yeah, it is.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  14:44

Wow, well, actually something you said there has just... I don't want to catapult into the film just yet... but there's a sheet of paper here, which is all the notes that I wrote when I watched Brave Enough and I've highlighted a couple of things there that that really kind of jumped out at me. Something that you've just said about why why you started rowing, it wasn't to get fit, it was because you just needed to be doing something, just needing to move. I've highlighted something you said in the film, and it was about the need to move. And I've written 'love the need to move, not to compete, or to lose weight, but to bring joy'. Once again there, it's almost like your subconscious knew, that you needed to move in order to bring you if not joy, at least peace in the first instance. But then in bringing peace, that then just seemed to unfold into happiness.

 

Jo Moseley  15:47

Yeah, peace opened the door, to the joy. I think you do need that sense of peace, that's a really good way of putting it. I do think you need that sense of peace and to allow yourself in the grief, to feel joy again. And to say that the grief won't... you don't, I don't think you ever... it's not one or the other. It's not like you're grieving or there's joy. Both can exist every day, intertwined. It's like a dance between the two, and the way that you get through it is just to recognise. Recognise the joy, like every time, I go to spend time out on the sea, I can see the sea right now where we are. Every time I go, wherever I am on a paddleboard, at some point, I recognise that joy. I'll stop for seconds or minutes and say, "this is joy and I'm banking, that joy". Because grief is, as we all know, is going to come along at some point, and anxiety and worry. Having the two in your lives and knowing that there will be grief and not trying to deny that grief, but knowing that there's also joy, it's like they're just together. And, and allowing both to be together just means that you can kind of flow a little bit more in your life, because you're not fighting the grief, you're just recognising the grief, and recognising all those emotions. And yeah, the movement. You know, sometimes I wish I really was competitive, I really do wish that I would like I need to do this faster, I need to do this, or I need to compete. Because I think sometimes I would maybe push myself a bit harder, or I don't know what. It is always coming down to that joy, and my body's saying, 'this is good. This is gonna help you sleep tonight'. And my whole life rests on nicely.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  17:28

Perhaps if you were competitive though, it would dilute what you are in other ways, you know, so it might dilute that feeling of joy, and that inspiration that you pass on? I don't know. We are the way we are, for a reason aren't we? So yeah, not necessarily to fight that, really.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  17:45

So your boys, where were they in all of this? Did they understand what you were going through? Did they understand your need to do the things you needed to do? And how did they feel about all of that?

 

Jo Moseley  17:56

Good question. I think as I started to be more focused on particularly with the fundraising and the challenge, and they could see that it was giving me a real purpose, that was positive. Because I was just piecing together that I was going through the menopause, I couldn't give them any good reason why I would fly off the handle, or burst into tears or, you know, for so long, I was in quite a big, well it was Tescos. I said to the journalists that for about two years, I thought that I was getting the flu, you know, really regularly, because I was getting cold flashes and headaches. I was going to bed early thinking oh, I'm coming down with the flu. And then the next morning, I'd be fine. And what I realised was I was just having cold flashes, and it wasn't the flu. And so I wasn't able to say to the boys "look, I'm going through the menopause. These are the symptoms. I'm really sorry, when I kind of fly off the handle or burst into tears or, you know, forget the keys or forget to pick them up, but I'm not gonna forget to pick them up. But I might kind of screech in a bit late or whatever". And they were, you know, teenagers, they weren't babies, I guess I wish I'd been able to give them a book and say, "this is what I'm going through". But I didn't realise what I was going through until probably two, three years later, by which time, I'd found ways to handle it. And also, nowadays, it's so much talk about menopause. Even eight or nine years ago, it was really not talked about, and I just didn't have the tools to do that. Then as I felt happier and I started doing things, I think they just chilled. You know, people say to me, after I give quite a few talks, particularly to the WI, and people say to me at the end, the boys must be really proud of you and to be honest, they're just like, 'yeah, cool Mum, whatever'.

 

Jo Moseley  19:40

You know, they're not standing there going, "oh, she's amazing". And that's great. You know, they're doing their stuff. And it's just like, Yeah, come on with them. Okay, let's move on, you know.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  19:51

Yeah, and they're not teenagers anymore, are they? They're in their early twenties. But yes, they still have a way of thinking like that, but I'll bet you give them twenty years or when they have their own children, perhaps, if they have their own children. That's the point where they'll reflect back and think, gosh, did my mother actually do that? That's amazing.

 

Jo Moseley  20:10

Maybe. My sons, my eldest son's masters graduation, which has like been postponed, like for two years. I was taking the photos and his girlfriend, she's really sweet. She's like, "you really know how to take photos, because of your social media use," and I was like "yes, maybe something about what I do on Instagram is working". Yeah, and they had booked some accommodation. And I said, "well, did you book accommodation for me?" And he says, "well, we figured that you just know how to do stuff like that. So you could do it on your own", and I was like, "okay", but it was just like, okay, Mum just sorts it all out herself. Yeah, they're just chilled about it. And I guess when I say I'm gonna do something, they're like, Yeah, that's great. Okay.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  20:56

Has it inspired them to do anything, do you think? Have they started doing or showing signs of doing anything themselves that you thought perhaps they might not have done otherwise?

 

Jo Moseley  21:06

They both did Duke of Edinburgh at school, and and they both went on expeditions. My eldest son and his girlfriend want to go travelling when they can, obviously COVID slightly challenged that. My youngest son's got a thing he wants to do and he's got a long term project. And I was like, yeah, that's really cool. Like, where's my dad was a bit like, Really? I was like, Yeah, and I guess for me, it's very much helping them understand that at twenty and twenty-four, they don't necessarily have to have it all figured out. Yet they keep learning and keep exploring, and particularly after COVID. It's a generation whose lives will continue to be really heavily impacted, careers and stuff like that. So yeah, hopefully they've seen that you can just keep trying and they'll get there in the end.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  21:53

Yeah, I think long gone are the days  where for our age group, when I was at school, it was like, you know, you leave school, you you find a job or career, and then you're not considered reliable or experienced unless you've had twenty years in the same job. That thankfully is now not the case, and the more experience you have is more down to the more things you've had to go at and can talk about. Yes. And not stagnating in one place.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  22:18

Okay, well, let's move on to your big one, which was your journey along the Leeds Liverpool canal. So where did the idea for that blossom, how did that all come about?

 

Jo Moseley  22:30

So I had my first lesson in September 2016. I'd injured my knee and had my first lesson in the lakes. I knew the minute I stood up on a paddleboard, that it was something special. Yeah, I just I didn't know how special it was going to be. But I just knew immediately that it was, and I decided about a couple of months afterwards that I was going to do the Leeds and Liverpool Canal. So we're almost halfway across the country like Liverpool to Leeds. And again, I'm not really sure why. So that was back in 2016. It just sounded like a really cool thing to do. But I made a mistake, and that is I told a few people at Christmas parties and things. The response was that they thought it sounded quite boring, quite logistically difficult, and also quite difficult for a woman of my age. And I was only fifty-one at the time, almost fifty-two. So I put the dream away and just allowed myself to keep building my, I didn't put it 'away-away', I kind of like put it at the back of my head like an idea, and just carried on paddleboarding. I went back to like body boarding and swimming in the sea and hiking and all those things I've really enjoyed as a child. Well I started to do those actually, after my rowing challenge, but you know, I continue to use all these things to build my confidence. And then in 2019, I realised, like, my youngest son will be going off to university and I would be empty nest, a single mum.

 

Jo Moseley  23:55

Also a number of my girlfriends, some obviously closer than others, had died in a very short space of time. And I just realised, if you had you know, the spark of a dream, you should try and give yourself the chance to achieve it. Whether you achieved it or not, that almost wasn't the point it was at least giving yourself the chance to try. So like the triumph in the trying. And so I just decided, right, again, it was just like, right, I'm just going to do it. And I'm not going to go just from Liverpool to Leeds, I'm going to go from Liverpool to Leeds, and then change onto the Aire and Calder Navigation and go to Goole. So as coast-to-coast as you really can do.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  24:36

Wow. I'm pleased that you did ignore what they said. Isn't it amazing how others words can have such a profound impact on your belief in yourself?

 

Jo Moseley  24:48

Yeah, they underestimate us hugely, yes.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  24:54

Yeah. And I think now as I've got older, I think I've learned that in those people saying those things to you, generally, it's them not having the belief in themselves isn't it? They're saying, oh, gosh, that sounds boring, because that perhaps they're not interested in it or that you're probably too old to do that, because they wouldn't think that they would be capable of doing it. I just think they tend to project their fears, their beliefs, limiting beliefs, onto us.

 

Jo Moseley  25:21

And one of the great things as you get older is all those things, you just realise that time is really short, and you don't know what's around the corner. And, you know, just give yourself a chance, because what other people think really, isn't important, and they only think about what you're doing for a fleeting moment, and then move on to something else. What they think is really not important.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  25:44

Okay, good. I love that what you said about the triumph in trying so you said the triumph is in trying. You did try and you did succeed! Take us through some of those highlights of your trip. How long it took you? And some of the fears you faced, you know what was going on there?

 

Jo Moseley  26:02

So it took eleven days, and I guess the biggest fear was that because I shared it on all my social media and I had fundraising goals that I wanted to achieve, and awareness I wanted to achieve around plastic, single-use plastic consumption, that I guess the biggest fear is, you know, putting your head above the parapet and saying I'm going to do something and then not being able to do it. There was one night in particular, day four, I didn't sleep because I was up in the night thinking you know, what have you done? What if you can't do this? You've told all these people that you can, and maybe you can't. Then I just remember about four o'clock in the morning, finally going to sleep and just saying to myself, however long it takes as long as you're not injured as long as you get to the other side. So I kind of gave myself a bit of compassion and grace then and that just eased that worry.

 

Jo Moseley  26:54

So the weather wasn't massively kind to us. The first few days it rained, we had some rain throughout, we had a couple of really beautiful days. People on the canal didn't always believe I could do it. I got a few comments like, you know, you could put an engine on that. Or sometimes people would say, or men would say, how far have you come? And I would say, well, I've come from Liverpool. And at this point, I was day five, six. You know, I'd already done about eighty miles. And I said I've done about eighty miles and I'm on my way to the other coast, and he was like, 'yeah, in your dreams', like literally 'in your dreams'. And I was like well, I have! Somebody? I know somebody laughed at me saying why didn't I go through the locks? And I was a bit like, why would I go through a lot, you know, on a paddleboard, I can just pull it out. So I had a bit of that. Mainly ninety-eight percent of the time, people were really encouraging. And it was, you know, only two years ago, but nobody, not many people had seen paddleboards, so they were asking me what it was like. Most people were really encouraging really kind they would give me their coppers from their pockets, to help with fundraising. But there were times when people did doubt me, most days were really, really different. So there's different scenery, there's different trees, or in an urban area, and then a rural area. And there were just a couple of afternoons, particularly one afternoon where it was a slog, and it was a bit like, just keep going, just keep going, just keep going. And sometimes boredom is a factor. You know, it's not all adrenaline, and it's not all rah rah.

 

Jo Moseley  28:22

Then the end was pretty amazing. I was joined by an amazing filmmaker, Frit Tam of Passionfruit Pictures joined me. And Frit had arranged for these lovely people to be there at the end, and that was amazing. I won't give the game away, but there was some serendipity at the end. So yeah, it was like life. It was up and down, hard work, cruising, surprises, kindness, doubt, all of it. All of the things it was everything.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  28:50

Wow. And I know Frit, and he's been here and he's a fabulous filmmaker and individual, and I'm sure you've both inspired one another there. And you know partway through the film, I think you were going through a tunnel and I think you were facing a huge moment where you have I'm assuming it was fear. But can you tell us about that tunnel moment and how you got yourself through it?

 

Jo Moseley  29:16

Yeah, so there were two tunnels. One was only 511 ... I always getting muddled if it's in metres or yards, but it's not very long. And then there was the other tunnel which is that Foulridge Tunnel which is about just under a mile long. And I was really scared. I'm not great in the dark. Nobody can join you in either tunnel. There's no towpath. And Foulridge, it's got like these three shafts of light that you just kind of have to focus on and it's on a traffic light system, so you know that no other boats are going to come towards you. But you have, I think half an hour to get through and I didn't because I know time my paddleboarding I don't know how fast I am. I was like I hope I can do it. And so it was really scary.

 

Jo Moseley  30:00

Something it's really interesting that you bring it up. But I think something happened in that tunnel that just made me think I'm a bit braver than I thought. And I came out and I felt quite triumphant. And you know, when you're excited, and you're babbling away, and I'm babbling away with some people, and this person said, "all you did was paddle through a tunnel", and this person hadn't paddled through a tunnel, let me say. I just turned around, and I said, "don't rain on my parade", you know, and I've never in my life said that. And I've never said it before or since. But I had done something that I felt was really scary. And I just overcome that fear. And I've gone ahead and done it. And I also was a bit worried that there was going to be some swans at the other side, that they're very, very territorial. And so I had that extra little worry, because, you know, when we're in swan territory, it's their territory, you know, it perhaps, and respect that territory. And, and I just said, "don't rain on my parade, let me let me be excited that I did this". And so yeah, that really, really made a difference, that tunnel. From then on, I just thought this is going to happen! We're going to do this by hook or by crook, we're going to get to the other side.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  31:09

You know, after doing this challenge, how has it changed the way you now approach things? Because it sounds to me very much like, you know, you've come from this place of almost darkness, you know, anxiety, and worry, and just kind of worrying about other people and not yourself. You've come through all these challenges, and you've discovered a new you. So how has this changed your approach to things you do?

 

Jo Moseley  31:37

I think it's given me a freedom to say I'm going to try and a freedom to give myself some grace and compassion that I'm going to do my very best. I think it's made me worry less about what other people think as long as I'm doing my best, that almost is really good enough. It's allowed me to feel that I'm more creative. So we did the film. Obviously, that was a collaboration. I launched the podcast, I say yes to things. And I made my own little film 'Found At Sea'. Yeah, I think it just just made me feel braver to give things a go, and just do my best. And then there's also those funny little things like, you know, sometimes when you're in the thick of a project, the excitement of the project is at one end, but you can't see the excitement of finishing the project, you're in the thick of it. And you know, the bit that sort of Brene Brown calls that bit the messy bit in the middle, and there's no rah rah, and there's no triumph. And there's nobody saying, Yeah, you're in the middle, it's that happens at the beginning, when people send you off on a project. Yeah. And that happens at the end, when they welcome you home. The bit in the middle, it's so cliche, but that's where the magic happens. That's the bit where you have to test your resolve and your self discipline and your motivation just to keep on going. And there were days when it felt like that, as I said, there were afternoons where it just was like paddle after paddle, you know. I'm just going through a lot of weed, so I was making very slow time. But you know, just literally. I think I bring that to my project, say, like doing the podcast, where there's so much as you know, that you're learning and piecing it together. And it's really hard and you don't know what you're doing or writing the book or whatever. And I just say to yourself, you're just in the middle of that. There's nothing unusual about this, you're in the middle of an expedition here, and the bit will happen at the end. But right now, it's just stroke by stroke, edit by edit, write by write, you know, sentence by sentence, that's all you have to do is put in the work. And you've got to stop questioning the work and just do the work.

 

Jo Moseley  33:42

You've got to get in the flow and, and you just got to do the work. And I think that it just I knew that I knew that already. Obviously I taught my children that you know, growing up, but sometimes an expedition. It's a potted life, isn't it? It's lots of life in a short period of time, and there's lessons that you can learn. And so sometimes I'll just go back to that. You're just in the middle, and you just keep having to do the work. Just chip away at the work. Yeah. And then you look back and and I felt that very much with the podcast, you know, launching the podcast, it was very much like, oh, gosh, everybody else was doing their Christmas stuff and kind of looking forward to that. And I was just there editing.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  34:24

Slogging away. Right?

 

Jo Moseley  34:26

Yeah, I'm just doing the work.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  34:28

Yes. Yeah. It's actually a positive message.

 

Jo Moseley  34:32

Yeah, I hope so. I saw a really good thing on Instagram yesterday about and it was like a mountain or an iceberg. And it was like a line across the summit and it's like the work you see and then the work you don't see. And most people, all we see are people's achievements at work. And I launched a podcast, I wrote a book, I made a film, I was the first person to walk this trail, or you know, I've given a talk here, but nobody sees the hours that go into creating that. Like you're doing with your podcast. Hours and hours and hours. Yeah, it's huge. It is a mountain. I think that's why you have an affinity with people that are doing creative things, because you know what they're going through, you know that what they show whether it's a picture or whatever. It didn't just happen overnight. And yeah, I think the expedition challenge helped me with that.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  35:23

Yeah. Wow. And so tell me about your book, Jo, because that's another challenge. Another episode. I mean, it feels like it was a natural progression. But have you had to battle with it at all?

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  35:39

What's it, you know? What's it going to?

 

Jo Moseley  35:41

Yeah, I have, I have. So it's got a deadline of... quite soon! It's about beautiful places to paddleboard in the UK. And the biggest thing I think, coming out of COVID, I got second and third lockdowns, I was on my own first lockdown, my son was at home. Second, and third, I was on my own. My dad was my bubble. But he lived a long way away. So we kind of didn't really pursue the bubbleness. The third lockdown, I was busy launching the film with Frit and we were just like, crazy busy. And then I realised, you know, when can I get out and start going to these places. I didn't want to go in lockdown people saying, well, it's work. And it was, but it didn't feel right. And then I think what happened was, I lost some of my confidence meeting people. You know, Zoom was great, I was giving my WI talks. I was doing corporate talks. But actually face-to-face meeting people, I think I had lost some of my confidence. So that took a little bit of time. So I kind of didn't get out on the starting block out of the starting blocks as quick as I would like to. And a lot of it is choosing places from research. And then hoping that when you get that they're as beautiful as you hope they'll be, and as interesting as you hope they'll be. Thankfully, every one of them has been. So that's good that I can trust my judgment, and worrying about the weather and worrying about people getting COVID, and people you're going to meet, then having to go into self isolation and everywhere.

 

Jo Moseley  37:06

You know, the weather hasn't been amazing. Sometimes you're just hoping that you're in the right place at the right time, weather wise, and accommodations, and as an extra layer. But it comes back down to the joy that when you're out paddleboarding, and you see seals or dolphins, or this extraordinary beautiful place that you want to then get home and write about that place, and share that place with somebody else who then might choose to go there. That is just a huge honour. You know that bit is like, wow. And that all the doubts come in, and all the worries. But that bit is being able to say to people, this place is extraordinary. And you may not have this, right, because I'm trying to have places that aren't on everybody's radar, you know, honey pots and all that sort of thing, and just sort of spreading paddleboarders around, partly just to then say, Gosh, I didn't realise something like that. I didn't realise a canal in the middle of London to be beautiful. I didn't realise that there was this beautiful sculpture in Wales, I could paddle around, or I didn't know I could go to a lighthouse in the northeast, you know, those are just extraordinary things. And being able to share that with people is just such an honour. So yeah. And there's all the worries about whether I'm doing it right.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  38:20

Aww, and when is that due to be published?

 

Jo Moseley  38:23

So it'll be spring next year, so I've got a few more weeks to get it in. It's like, pedal metal, all that stuff. Yeah, pedal, pedal, but they spend way too much time on on weather apps, you know, fourteen day forecasts ahead of me, and because I'm booked in and I booked places, and I'm meeting people, and I don't have that. I can't say I'll come next month because you know, I've got to do it when I'm gonna do it. So I'm looking at weather forecasts and checking them all the time and thinking it looks like it's getting a little better in two weeks time in that place where I'm going to be. So yeah, it'll be nice for a little bit once it's submitted, not to have to check the weather forecast every day and two hundred miles away. It's lovely.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  39:05

Oh what an amazing project that sounds like, to be able to go off around the country and explore these new areas. And yeah, I mean, our canal. I know I'm biased, but the canal that we're living on is absolutely stunning. I don't know if you've ever been on the Mon and Brec, but it just it just contours around the side of the hills. It's high up, it's not low down, it's high. And so so you're above everything all the time and just the Brecon Beacons poke their way through the trees every so often. And yeah, it just is quite stunning. That's all I can say. And if you're planning to come up, you must come out and say hello. Come up? No come down!

 

Jo Moseley  39:43

Definitely be a book on Wales and a book on Scotland. You know, there's so many beautiful places. This is just a taster, and hopefully a taster that people will think oh, I'll think a little differently about because I've written about the Leeds and Liverpool Canal, I hope people might think Oh, where are the canals near me.

 

39:59

Two minutes from my doctor's surgery where I go, with a paddleboard and it was only you know, in the last three or four years, I realised the beauty. Hopefully, other people would then think, Oh, where's our local canal? Or where's our local lake instaad of maybe what there's been: I've got to go to Devon, or I've got to go to the beach. Actually, there's places on their doorstep that they could paddle. So that sounds a lovely place. And I'll put that on my list.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  40:23

Oh, we're coming towards the end of time now, Jo. But a couple more things that I wanted to ask you. This is something that I ask everybody - do you have a HeadRightOut Moment that you could describe for us? It's a moment where you know, deep down, that you have headed well out of your comfort zone, there's something that you never believed that you could possibly achieve. It might be your paddle across the coast-to-coast. But it could be something else, it could be something smaller. But is there something that you could perhaps talk about?

 

Jo Moseley  40:55

That's interesting, and I think and I haven't really talked about this before, but I think it was the day after I hadn't slept the night before, and I got up and I literally was on two to three hours of sleep. Frit was going back to London to work. So I was then going to be on my own paddling all day. I had a friend Sharon, who was coming who's part of the wonderful wild women community up in the lakes, and Sharon was going to meet me. But apart from that, I was going to be paddling all day, no filming, and then a friend of my son was going to collect me. So it could be quite a low day, other than Sharon joining me. I think the HeadRightOut Moment was thinking, I'm really tired. And I'm really doubtful, but I've given myself that grace, that as long as I just keep paddling, I will get to the end. And somehow there was a level that I'd stepped up in my soul about the trip. But I just needed to keep paddling. And I needed to keep believing. But I also needed to be compassionate to myself, that if it took twelve days or thirteen days or fourteen days, I would just ask work for more time off work. And you know, I just would ring them and say I'm really sorry, I'm really slow. But can I have a bit more annual leave, and they would have been fine with that. Doing that would have given me most of the next weekend, so I think that was probably a HeadRightOut Moment, knowing that I didn't think I could do it, but I still was going to do it anyway. And I was going to try anyway and give myself all the grace that I could to just keep trying and allow all the doubts to come with me but not allow the doubts to overcome me. And I've never told anyone else that.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  42:37

Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. And that leads me then to ask if you were going to give other midlife women, any tips, any advice about how they could not necessarily go and do stand up paddleboarding, although that obviously is a great thing to be doing. But how would you suggest they should start and approach doing something that they feel scared about, or they feel anxious about? What advice would you offer them?

 

Jo Moseley  43:03

I think it comes back to the triumph is in the trying, allowing yourself to be a beginner and allowing yourself to say, I don't know how to do this, but I'm willing to learn and be open to it. I think yeah, allowing yourself to be a beginner allowing yourself to be vulnerable enough to fail because anything new is going to allow you is going to require that you fail at some point in some tiny way. But know that by actually, say you're paddleboarding, falling and standing up again is part of it. I would say only do it if it really brings you joy. And if it doesn't try something else. You know, life is too short to keep doing stuff just because everybody else loves it. Just allow yourself to try things and then pursue the things that bring you joy. And also surround yourself with people either online or in a community or in your podcast. You know, because I think podcasts are like having friends really in your ears who believe in you who will inspire you to keep trying. Yeah, I was driving back from Cullercoats on Tuesday, and I was listening to a really old Oprah Winfrey podcast and it was 10.30 at night. It really struck home to me, just something she said. And I think if you just keep bringing those good podcasts and good knowledge into your brain, it seeps through and it helps remove all the negative and the cynicism that is understandably in the world at the moment.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  44:28

Interesting you should say that actually, because I found that when I was going through some of the most tricky times in my life in the last five years, I would say and that was listening to podcasts, they got me through some really difficult times and now I treat them in the same way that I would treat YouTube for example, if I'm wanting to learn about something, I will find a podcast on it and I will keep that in my ears for a week or two. You know if I'm writing a book it's all about writing, if I'm starting a podcast, it's all about podcasts and so on. So naturally, if you're going off on an adventure then I think listening to inspiring stories from people has to go a long way to feeding that need and giving us some some good advice.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  45:09

Well talking of good advice you have given us absolutely masses, Jo. And it's been wonderful. I just feel you've been so honest, so so honest with us and so genuinely authentic and showing us the vulnerability that you have gone through and I just I really really appreciate that and I know others will too. I know the listeners will certainly appreciate your story and how you've told it to us and I just I wish you so much luck with your book and all of those future things that you're going to head off and do. In fact, can I just ask what is next, apart from the book which is obviously a really big thing for you? Is there anything that's coming in 2022?

 

Jo Moseley  45:53

I think I would like to do more coastal paddleboarding, but I would like to do something where I include other people and you know have them come along. So there's a lot of safety stuff. I need to understand a lot about the coast that and tides and stuff like that, that I'll need to really understand and maybe put a team together. But yeah some more coastal paddleboarding and always always relating it to you know plastic consumption, litter picking, so yeah, not round the country. I'm not going to go around the whole country. The Yorkshire coastline which is special to me. So you know, just in case people think I'm going to go around the country, I'm not. I don't have that as a goal but just including other people, including other people. I've always done a lot of stuff on my own and I've realised that other people do want to be part of something and if we can make that happen and I can then celebrate what they're doing. Less about me and more about them, that's what I would like to do.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  46:50

And so the motto of your podcast that I think that leads beautifully into what you live by, could you tell us what it is?

 

Jo Moseley  46:58

So the motto is 'we rise by lifting others', and it was something that I was playing with as an idea as I was launching the podcast and one of my very first interviewers she said it and I'd like that's it she's already said it that means it's a sign that that's what it should be so yeah 'we rise by lifting others' is the motto of the podcast and that's what I aim to do and that's what I try and do with mine and you clearly are doing with your so thank you for inviting me It has been a huge honour.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  47:26

Thank you. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. So Jo, thank you can you please just tell us where people can find you on social media and where they can go and listen to The Joy of SUP?

 

Jo Moseley  47:38

Yeah, so The Joy of SUP Podcast is on Instagram as @thejoyofsuppodcast_ and also if you just look on Apple and Spotify and Stitcher, it's there. There's links from my Instagram and I'm also @healthyhappy50 out on Instagram and Twitter. My website is www.jomoseley.com and there's links there to everything as well.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  48:01

Brilliant thank you

 

Jo Moseley  48:02

And you can sign up there for Postcards of Joy and find out about where to watch the films.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  48:07

Yeah, everybody you need to do that. I get the Postcards of Joy through, and it's not one of th,ose emails that come through and you think 'oh gosh not another one I've got to read' it really is feel good, inspiring. Short, little ditties that are just going to lift you and yeah, it's fabulous. Jo Moseley, thank you so much. It's been a wonderful hour talking to you and I hope we get to meet sometime in person. That will definitely be a day of joy for me.

 

Jo Moseley  48:33

Thank you Take care.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  48:43

Well, I feel like I spend my life saying 'wow', to my guests... and 'wow', after I've spoken to my guests, but then that is what this is like. Jo's words just were so powerful. She had so much advice to give, and I hope you're going to take something away from that, because I've got loads of nuggets there lots of useful pieces of information, and useful advice for dealing with different stages in my life and I hope Yeah, I hope you have too. Things like her talking about 'from the grief of miscarriages, divorce and menopause to the joy of rowing and SUPing and about how sensitively she dealt with her grief through movement and through counselling, and 'not fighting the grief but just recognising the grief'. These are all things that yes, we can definitely relate to, but we don't always put these things into practice. I'm just thinking back to times in my life now where gosh, I could have done with hearing those words. I know that personally when I went through a period of loss after a long-term relationship ended, I turned to running and I had never run before... at least not through choice. I found that movement helped me to heal and allowed myself to feel and to process and to return to that joy, again. That joy that Jo talks about. I'm sure it's the movement that helps release those endorphins, and I'm pretty certain there is research and scientific evidence that backs that up.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  50:20

I love Jo's saying, 'the triumph is in the trying'. It's not about the outcome. It's not about succeeding in a challenge or succeeding in an activity. It's not about getting something, right, whatever that right might be. I've been telling students this for years, as a teacher, but the triumph is actually in the trying where you are just having a go, you're giving yourself that permission to have a go. And how 'the bit in the middle is where the magic happens'. It's so worth remembering that if you have an adventure, or project or you're studying, putting in the work and slogging through it over and over and over when you feel like you just can't go any further, remember - the bit in the middle is where the magic happens. Wow. There she goes again... wow.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  51:12

Now I'm going to move on. So we've got the SheExtreme Film Festival coming up on the 23rd of October. It's in Bristol, it's at the Arnolfini, and it is a free event. There's going to be some amazing films from female filmmakers there. I can't wait. I'm actually attending this. I can't wait to go and see the films, I can't wait to get the opportunity to go and meet with other women, other like-minded women that I can talk adventure and challenges and podcast and all sorts of other wonderful things about with them. And I'm also excited because Jo is going to be there. So I am actually going to get the opportunity finally to Meet Jo face-to-face. So I feel like I know her really, really well. If she's giving hugs, I am going to give her the biggest hug ever. Yeah, so that's gonna be really, really lovely to meet with Jo.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  52:16

I need to apologise for the feedback issues in the WiFi noise. Again. This was recorded back in August, back on the boat, and the WiFi clearly was in and out. And it took me masses and masses of editing time to get it to the point where it was as listenable as it is now. So I know it wasn't perfect, and I don't expect it to be completely perfect. But there was a lot of feedback today, which I hadn't expected. So yes, stick with me. And yes, hopefully this is something that I can work on and develop and find out how I can sort this issue. If it means changing my service provider to get a different provider for my mobile WiFi router, then that's what I'll do.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  53:07

Okay, so this is the section where we talk about HeadRightOut Moments. Jo's tunnel experience was an amazing HeadRightOut Moment, in addition to her experience after two to three hours sleep and believing that somehow, somehow she COULD keep paddling regardless of whatever her thoughts were. I think she said she was 'going to allow the doubts to come with her' but what was it, 'not allow the doubts to overcome her' and again, more wise words but now today I am going to share a HeadRightOut Moment of my own with you.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  53:39

It was up in North Wales back in the summer, in August. Mike and I went up to visit our friends, Steve and Liz, and Liz is a marine biologist. She's got a lot of friends who are in the business and know the waters around where they live very, very well. And she had a tip-off whilst we were up there to say that the bioluminescence was back at Penmon Point, on Anglesey and would they like to go. There was going to be a group, a big group of people there on the beach, they were going to have a barbecue and a wonderful gathering and wait for it to get dark. And then we could go out and we could paddleboard and swim and see the bioluminescence. Now for those of you who have never heard of this before, my very basic knowledge of it is that it's plankton that stores energy in the form of light and it gives off the light at night when it gets dark. So it stores the light through the day and then it gives it off again at night and it glows and it glows this beautiful blue-green. And naturally I wanted to see this phenomenon for myself. So Mike and I went along too and I took my cozzy and a towel and we took some food and chairs and yes, we set up a little camp. A little mini camp on on the pebbles at Penmon Point.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  55:04

Now this is going to sound very odd, but I have never swum in the sea. I have paddled. I have fallen in when I've been paddleboarding in Poole Harbour, and it's very, very shallow in the stretches of Poole Harbour I'm thinking of. But I've never actually gone for a proper swim in the sea, certainly not at night either. I'm not a strong swimmer, but I can manage swimming. And so the sun set and it was beautiful as the sun set over Penmon Point and it glowed across the lighthouse. And then it reached a point by about eleven o'clock or half eleven, and we could see the sea starting to glow, and people were throwing pebbles into the water to watch the splashes come up in that green-blue glow that is characteristic of the bioluminescence. Then Liz invited me to go out on her paddleboard with her. Now having only been on a paddleboard three times at that point, I wasn't confident enough to go out on the water on my own, but definitely not in the dark. But I knelt on the front of her paddleboard and she took me around the bay, and it was the most incredible experience. As the paddle lifted up out of the water, I watched what I can only describe as, it was like fireworks of water that would shoot across in front of me, and they would land on the board by my knees. These droplets, these greeny-blue droplets would just bounce and roll around and then spread and then dissipate. And it really is, I almost can't find the words to describe it, and I haven't written any of this down. This is just all from my memory and from my experience. I have no photographs of this because I was too frightened to take my camera out onto the water in case I fell in. But it was just so beautiful and so serene, and nothing like I've ever experienced out on the water before.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  57:07

So then I climbed off, thanked Liz and went back to the area where we had a fire lit just to warm up again. And I kept saying to Mike, I'd love to go out for a swim. But Mike doesn't swim. So he couldn't come out with me. And there were lots of people that were going out, but they were going out with other people. And I just kept looking and thinking I just need to get out there. But I knew it wasn't right to go out on my own. And then this lovely woman came up to me with a big smile, and she said, "do you want to go out for a swim?" And I said, "yes, I do". I said, "do you" she went "yes", she said, "but I'm too nervous to go on my own". And I said "me too". She said, "well come on, let's go out together". And so we did. And as I got into the water, and I took the first strokes, the temperature of the water took my breath away. It wasn't freezing, but just because I'm not used to being in sea water, I guess. But it took my breath away in the first few moments. And then I took my first strokes and with every stroke that I made, I did my best to keep my eyes open so that I could see these blue-green splashes, firing around in front of me. If I didn't know better, if I didn't know it was bioluminescence, I would say that I was going to get out of the water and I would be covered in blue-green paint because that's what it felt like. You're swimming in the water. It feels like you're being covered in the colour. It's just so serene, and such a beautiful experience.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  58:37

So thank you, Liz for taking me out on the paddleboard. Thank you, Steve, and thank you to Mhairi who is now I believe up in Scotland, maybe Glasgow, as she was moving back there the following week from North Wales.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  58:52

So this has been a long reflection today, but thank you so much for listening in. Thank you for staying with me. Next week we've got Stephie Boon coming on, she's going to be talking to me about her deep love of hiking and managing dark periods in her life, and the early onset of menopause, when her son was just FIVE years old!

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  59:14

Don't forget to hit follow and share the podcast with one of your friends. Let them know how much you get from it. And let's just share, share, share and get the HeadRightOut Podcast growing. HeadRightOut Hugs to you all. Take care and do something that scares you every day.

 

Cherry Hamrick exudes positivity and resilience. Her mindset is that of adventure. Every corner of her life, whether work, play, family or vacation is treated as an adventure. At sixty-five, she faced her shyness to travel alone to Antarctica. At seventy-two she was seriously ill in Tanzania, with the sickness known as the 'amoeba'. Yet all she wanted was to climb Kilimanjaro and appreciate running in Africa. At seventy-three, she has now recorded a streak of over 500 consecutive days of walking. A splits extraordinaire, avid runner, kayaker, dancer and traveller with a zest for life, challenges and adventures. You will be reaching for a map and guidebook after listening to Cherry!

Zoe Langley-Wathen  00:14

Hello, and welcome back to the HeadRightOut Podcast. If you're here for the very first time, welcome! I hope you're here to stay. My name is Zoe Langley-Wathen, and I am your host, and I'm here to help introduce the idea of doing something that scares you. To push yourself out of your comfort zone a little bit. Today, in order to take us on this resilience journey a little bit more, I am talking to a very special lady indeed. Her name is Cherry, and she's going to be taking us through her journey of living an adventurous life.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  00:48

Now, I have to just say here, a little bit of a thing that has been going on with my internet connection, I think it's mine, I'm not sure. But please, please make some allowances for the quality here. Our connection was unstable, and we had been completely disconnected at the start of our chat. Once we were reconnected, it was it was a bit better, and although there was some occasional latency there in the audio, we decided to run with it. So I will have edited out a lot of the long pauses that you get when you have a delay in a call. But hopefully it doesn't completely detract from the conversation, because it was a wonderful conversation that we had.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  01:26

Cherry shares some awesome advice with us about keeping a positive mindset through tough times, which we all get and how best to deal with those problems and how best to deal with a crisis when it hits, as well. She's a woman of much wisdom and an absolute joy to talk to. So without further ado, let's get into the interview.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  01:56

Okay, hello, everybody and welcome to the HeadRightOut Podcast. And today I have a very special guest and she is tuning in with us all the way from the United States. Her name is Cherry Hamrick, and I have a wonderful introduction to offer you, before we get right into that interview with Cherry.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  02:15

Cherry Hamrick is based in the United States and was a ballet teacher for twenty years before making a career change into becoming a librarian, for twenty-three years. At fifty. She studied for a master's degree, which enabled her to become a library director, at which point she had the joy and satisfaction of being a major part of building a big new library for her community. She loved the construction part of it so much that she says if she could have had a third career, it would have been to become a construction manager. (I absolutely love that already!)

Zoe Langley-Wathen  02:51

Cherry has run on all of the seven continents. She has been in a boat on six of the seven continents. And in addition to working for that master's degree at fifty, she also ran her first marathon. She wore the mantle of race director for twelve years at the library, putting on the Run for Reading and the Jingle Bell 5K for women. She is the vice chair of the Ingham County Parks Board and she's a founding board member of the Friends of Lansing Regional Trails. Although she didn't start marathons until she was fifty, Cherry has now run seven marathons; Bay Shore, Detroit twice (that's running once and race walking it once), Big Sur, China, Chicago and New York. She describes herself as an avid runner, (I'd say!), walker kayaker and has done yoga since she was twelve years old.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  03:50

Cherry has travelled to Antarctica, despite being shy and not knowing anyone and has undertaken a daily lockdown walk with a friend and never stopped. Current total of those walks is now at over two thousand miles and over five hundred days of walking. She even managed to wear a hole in the bottom of her cast boot that she was wearing for a stress fracture. Cherry's biggest challenge was in 2020. On her final continent, the plan was to Safari for five days, do a partial climb of Mount Kilimanjaro for three days, run a half marathon and then fly home (to rest I assume). That was supposed to be for a total of two weeks with travel time included. Let's say that expedition didn't go quite as planned, despite two years of organizing the trip. And I believe there was another cast boot that became an essential part of Cherry's attire due to another stress fracture this time in her foot and a hellish illness contracted in Tanzania that gradually sucked the life from her and I I believe that also forced her to be hospitalized on her return to the US. I sense that this woman is a determined soul. She is also seventy-three years old. Now she went to set foot on Kili. So let's find out what happened.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  05:18

Cherry, welcome to the HeadRightOut Podcast. My goodness me, what a tale. What a whole wealth of tales you have there. What hurdles were you faced with when travelling to Africa, because that sounds like it was your biggest challenge, to date at least and that it threw all sorts of things at you what was going on there?

Cherry Hamrick  05:39

It certainly did. The best part of the whole adventure was through the whole thing, all three of us that were on the trip had such a good attitude, which I appreciated from the girls. Not everybody rides in an ambulance in Tanzania, and not everybody experiences coming down the mountain the same way you went up. They were so, so wonderful about just embracing what was happening. I mean, that's part of travel and life, things change quickly, and you have to figure it out.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  06:13

So what caused you to be in the ambulance?

Cherry Hamrick  06:16

I had somehow, I have a theory, but I'm not sure how, come in contact with the water there. I thought I was really careful. But I think maybe during the tent shower, I was looking up to pull the chain maybe and got some water in my mouth. I don't know. But I got an amoeba is what the doctor there called it and just had (not real pleasant) constant diarrhea, and just no appetite. I tried to cover it up. I didn't want anybody to worry. And I took some anti-diarrhea medicine, which helped the first few days so I could keep going on safari. When it was time to climb, the guide said "how are you feeling" and I said, "well, I've had a little diarrhea." So to be fair, he didn't understand the severity of my problem. But starting up Mount Kilimanjaro, really weak, very dehydrated and wearing an aircast that came up, but I'm pretty determined. And I just wanted to... I was there to climb that mountain.

Cherry Hamrick  07:20

So our guide was wonderful, he helped me, hauled me up over things. My foot was really getting moved around in the cast because the ground is so different. So my foot hurt a lot and when we got to that first camp, because I read a lot about it, I was so excited to actually be in a camp on Mount Kilimanjaro. That was such a thrill. I just knew I didn't have the strength or the ability. The next day was twice as long and I just knew I couldn't manage. So we had to come back down the next morning and there was an ambulance waiting for me, and they took me to a clinic to get some medicine and that helped. I don't know how much you want me to go on about this?

Zoe Langley-Wathen  08:12

Oh no, you're not going on at all. I'm absolutely taking it all in. I know a little bit of a story but just hearing you recount that story is just so absorbing. So no, please do carry on.

Cherry Hamrick  08:23

Okay. So we were able to get into our hotel easily which was nice because it was early. Everybody was so accommodating, and so helpful, and so caring. It was really wonderful. It was a really good experience, but at that point I was so dehydrated I didn't have any saliva, so I couldn't eat because it would make me gag or throw up. So the people at the hotel kept trying to get me to eat and they would bring food to my room and I just couldn't. The good part was the girls, my daughter and another woman her age went ahead and had adventures on their own, which was wonderful. I was so pleased. I really wanted them to keep climbing but they chose not to... and I was pretty much in bed.

Cherry Hamrick  09:12

Fortunately it was a beautiful hotel and we had little patios, so I could see outside but I just couldn't do anything. But because it was my seventh continent and I was determined to run, I had a special insert for my shoe that was metal, that I had made before I went to Tanzania, hoping that would help if I can go without the boot with my stress fracture. So I put that on and I ran around the hotel, a little bit not a lot, but I was in Tanzania. I could see Mount Kilimanjaro, literally from my room, and I just felt like I had to do that and then it was stopped; the medicines stopped my symptoms enough to be okay flying home. I had to have a wheelchair because I was so weak I couldn't, I really couldn't stand up or walk very far. So when I got home, my husband took me immediately to the emergency room and I was hospitalized. My potassium was 2.3, which I found out later, it's quite dangerously low, and as severely dehydrated, obviously, and I lost about seven pounds at that point. So I was in the hospital for three days, and got a lot of potassium infusions, and a lot of hydration and went home and took about a week of not doing a whole lot, but I'm pretty healthy, and I recover quickly from things. So mostly, it was what everybody does in Tanzania. The good and the bad.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  10:49

It's amazing, isn't it, how if you are fit and healthy, how quickly you can recover from something? But that sounded particularly harrowing and you've gone through a lot there. You've got your boot, you know, the air cast, on. So you've got pain from your stress fracture, you've got this whole ordeal that you're dealing with the diarrhea and then back at the hotel, the sickness, or the gagging. You must have felt absolutely rotten, and the diarrhea must have just been absolutely awful to deal with. It's bad enough when you're at home, but when you're overseas, I think it just exacerbates it even more. Oh my goodness. So you've come through that and do you tell that story now, with a sense of fondness, or a sense of adventure? You know, what feeling do you find yourself recounting that adventure, that trip? How does it make you feel inside now that you can see it from the other side?

Cherry Hamrick  11:47

That's a very good question. I haven't thought about it that clearly. I tend to see everything as an adventure. I appreciated how much everybody just thought, Okay, this is what we have to deal with. I can't do anything, the girls went ahead and did adventures on their own for a few days. I didn't know till later how really dangerously sick I was, which helped us to not know at the time. And I think I don't remember maybe a lot of it. But this is an odd thing. The only thing that I could eat, my daughter had bought a little can of Pringles potato chips. That was literally the only thing I can eat. And I don't know why. Maybe the salt? I don't know. But so, you know, I had kind of an okay time in the hotel room. I knew I was missing things, which I felt badly about. But I don't know. I'm glad I survived. I don't think I was in mortal danger. But it was an adventure. I see it as an adventure, riding down the mountain in an ambulance. And the change in plans; how everybody adapted well; the caring of the people I was with, the guide and the doctor and everybody, so I guess I think it was just more of an adventure. Maybe that's painting with a good brush to make it seem happier.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  13:19

But then perhaps that's your mindset as well. You know, the way you think about things. I mean, I had a similar situation two years ago where I went on my very first skiing trip. I was with the school that I was working at, and I had an accident on the mountain. And yeah, basically I had to be ferried off the mountain. It wasn't by ambulance, but it was by ski rescue. And I just see that as the most exciting thing that happened to me that day. I was in massive pain, I'd torn my ACL and MCL in my knee and partially dislocated my kneecap. But you know I'm there with my phone, saying "please, if I'm going to go down this mountain on ski rescue, you HAVE to take a photograph of me. I'm not going home without that! So, yeah, it was all part of the adventure.

Cherry Hamrick  14:05

Yes, it is. I think if you travel enough, you learn you have to adapt quickly to situations. And that's funny that you said that, because I did take a picture of my ambulance driver, because he was very dapper had a cool hat, and things you think of you know, at the moment and to get back down the mountain, literally thinking again about how I felt about it. It's hard to recreate that now talking about it at camp and realising I just could not do anymore. The most crushing thing to me, was to realise that I thought somebody will just come and get me. But you can't. You cannot get vehicles up that high. I think we're at about 10,000 feet at that point. To realise that I had to turn around and go back down the way I came up, just at the time, that was just soul crushing, I could not imagine or face that, but I didn't have a choice. So the next morning, we did it and everybody helped, and we survived. Then we got down to where we could get in a vehicle, and then it was another hour into the town. But looking back, I thought, why was that such a big deal, but at the time, that was just soul crushing to think I had to walk all the way back down.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  15:32

I've got to cut in there you know, because I'm really interested to know, what did you draw on to get you back down the mountain? I mean, we can say it's just resilience. But it's never JUST resilience is it? It comes from a whole toolkit of being able to deal with hard stuff that is thrown at you. So was there something in particular that you drew on? Do you have a mantra that you recite over and over in your head to talk yourself out of all of the negative thoughts? What do you do to get yourself through stuff like that?

Cherry Hamrick  16:01

That's another good question that I haven't thought too deeply about, I guess. I'm just very determined. If I say, I'm gonna do something, I do it. And I just knew I was determined. I knew I could do it. I mean, I knew in the back of my mind, yes, I could walk all the way back down with a lot of help. But I never doubted that I could do it, I guess. I was just devastated at the time. And hoping I had the energy to do that. But I think I always knew I could. I don't know if that's a good explanation.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  16:35

No, that's fine. I mean, sometimes it is just something deep down inside of us. We just know don't we? And it's that decision as well. You just knew that there was absolutely no way you were going to be able to go any further. So there had to come a point where you had to face - although you were determined to get up further - you had to face that you couldn't. So that took a lot of determination to understand that and to deal with that, as you said it was crushing. But what a story.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  17:03

So you came back, and you're in hospital for a few days.

Cherry Hamrick  17:07

Yeah.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  17:07

And so you're in recovery. Thank goodness, you're in recovery. And then I believe lockdown happened after that, not long after and partly into your recovery at home. Can you tell us a little bit about what happened at the beginning of lockdown?

Cherry Hamrick  17:24

Yes, yes, we got home, March 3, I believe. And then I was pretty much just at home for a week. And then I was feeling better. And I have friends that I walk with, and we walked. And then we got together for lunch, because they wanted to hear about my trip. And at the time, this friend of mine, I knew who also works in the library, got an email from the library saying don't come to work tomorrow, because we're all locked down - it's happening. And so he just looked at me and said, "so do you want to walk again tomorrow? I don't have to work." And I said, "Sure!" So, the way you know, things just start kind of funny. We thought, oh, it'll be a week or two, or something and it just went on and on. Then when he did go back to work, it was more challenging, because he worked till seven, some nights. And it was really interesting, and I think again, we both like the challenge of that. The challenge of how to figure out where and when the two of us could meet every single day.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  18:40

That's that is quite a mammoth undertaking when somebody is working and yeah, you have to negotiate and manage that time. I know if I've been doing a challenge, the longest I've continued to challenge is a hundred days. So to continue it for how many days exactly, is it now?

Cherry Hamrick  18:58

514.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  19:00

Wow, that is just incredible. That is absolutely incredible. So you know, you're closing in on the second year, almost. You're closer to your second year than you are to the end of the first year. And do you see any sign of that stopping, or do you plan to continue or  what are the plans with that? Do you feel like you can't stop now? Are you just enjoying it?

Cherry Hamrick  19:25

Well, kind of all of those things. I had done a running streak for a year, just to see if I could do it. But doing the streak with another person is a whole other level of complication. You can't just at eleven o'clock at night say "Oh shoot, I forgot", and jump on the treadmill and run for a mile. It's just another level. And honestly, especially during pandemic, it was wonderful to have a reason to go outside and to meet somebody else and to walk and talk, and we laughed a lot. People ask what we talked about all that time, and my example is because we walked a lot of neighbourhoods, we spent a lot of time one day talking about when they started attaching garages to houses. You know, we're fine trying to figure that out.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  20:20

It's amazing when you're walking and talking with somebody, what does come up. I've walked with many people, just random people that I've met along the way. And yeah, after you've kind of got over the first few minutes of life story, you do end up getting into some really interesting discussions. I'm interested to know, have there been any disagreements with the two of you in that time?

Cherry Hamrick  20:40

That's a very good question, too. No, we just we laugh and we have the same sense of humour. In the US in this particular time, we have the same political views. I think if we didn't, it might not have lasted this long. But we talk a lot of library stuff. I don't know, we just get along very well. I've known him for a long, long time through the library and he's just a wonderful person. And I don't know, now it's become a real quest for us. But we're still having fun and we're still trying to work it out every day.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  21:18

Well, that's fabulous. And what better way of getting out into the outdoors and keeping fit. If you can't run, if you can't climb a mountain, just go out for a walk. Is there a distance, a particular distance that you'd like to do? Have you got an optimum distance that you do every day?

Cherry Hamrick  21:35

We agreed early on, once we realized this was gonna be a thing, and the usual standard for a streak is a minimum of a mile. So we joke that our rulebook says we have to do a mile. Some days, that's all one of us has time for. One day when it was pouring rain, we did our mile under a picnic shelter roof, just going around and around and around. In the winter here, it gets very cold, very snowy, very icy. So sometimes we would have to adapt. If it was just to icy, we would slip and slide through our mile and call it good. But then other days when it's nice, and we have the time we've done ten miles, I think twelve miles might have been our longest walk so far. So we really bounce around. Yeah, in a given week, we'll do a mile five miles, eight miles just depends.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  22:29

Yeah, that's good. You're changing it around, and it's whatever suits your life on that particular day in the moment, isn't it? Wow. So I'm interested to know, Cherry, you've obviously done quite a lot there. You're experienced in ballet and yoga as well, in the past. It doesn't seem to faze you about embarking on new things, and you've changed up what you've done in your life, career-wise, and then you went on to study your masters. So how has your life been changed do you think, by your challenges you've chosen to do?

Cherry Hamrick  23:00

Yes, I like challenges I always have. I like thinking of something and then thinking, Oh, how do I do that? How do I get there in the case of travelling. That's one thing I oddly I liked about being a Race Director was on Race Day, something's going to happen, but you don't know what it is. And I really like that challenge of figuring things out when they happen, that you can't plan for.  I don't know, it's like that challenge. And circling back to my two careers, I also always felt that you should change careers every 20 years, just to start fresh, learn something new, be with new people. I just always I just I like change. And I like challenges. And I should give a nice shout out to my husband who does not care about travelling, but totally supports and helps in any way he can for me to have my adventures without going with me, but he really enjoys the adventures that I have.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  24:05

Brilliant big up Mr. Cherry. That's fabulous. So do you feel then, that being faced with the unknown in those challenges, or in those new lifestyles or new careers, that you've chosen, is it the unknown that you thrive on?

Cherry Hamrick  24:19

I think possibly, and I think knowing that whatever it is, I can figure it out. I can figure out how to deal with it. I can figure out what I need, or where to go, or who to ask. I like figuring things out - how to, like on Kilimanjaro "now what's gonna happen?" I just find that intriguing.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  24:38

Yeah. Oh wow. You have such a strong history of resilience and I love that because I've been trying to build my resilience for a long time and I'm certainly getting there I'm not there yet. I think we are always learning is as far as that goes. I think like you say you just knowing that you know what to do in particular situations,  or you can be flexible. You can work around a problem and think around a problem to actually find the solution to that, knowing that you've got that toolkit in there somewhere to be able to handle that is great. And that's what resilience is all about. And this podcast really is all about is just trying to offer other women that knowledge that they have that capability to, but if we've got to find it, we've got to tap into it, haven't we, and it's not until we start having experiences and we don't have to climb Kilimanjaro or jump out of an aeroplane to have those strengthening experiences. Sometimes it's just doing those things that push us out of our comfort zone and into the unknown, like changing your job or going for a new career.

Cherry Hamrick  25:40

Yes, and I think, to me, the biggest thing is just to not panic. I've had a lot of situations where I could have panicked, but if you don't panic and just say, "Okay, I have to figure this out. Who do I talk to? Where do I go?", if you don't panic and just stop and think, 'I can figure this out'. I think that makes a big difference.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  26:05

That's actually really good advice, and I think what I've discovered about myself is that I tend not to panic, I'm very good at not panicking. Actually, I think I'm more of a worrier. So beforehand, before I go off to do something, I will worry a lot about it, perhaps unnecessarily, but when I'm actually in the moment, I'm able to tune in to what I need to get done without the panic pants going on.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  26:29

So you were doing the splits in a photograph I saw of you recently. That is something I have never, ever been able to do, Cherry. I just, I looked on that with with absolute awe and envy and wow, in every aspect. Is that because you have kept up with your yoga? Is it your years of ballet? How have you managed to keep yourself in a body that is still able to do the splits and it's seemingly so easily?

Cherry Hamrick  27:02

There's a funny story about that. When I was dancing, and I was twenty, my teacher who actually studied at the Royal Academy in London, she was English. She was wonderful and she was turning forty. She was doing a routine and it included the splits, and we were all amazed that she was that old and could do the splits. I mean, we just kept saying, "She's forty. How can she still do the splits? (And said from a twenty-year old perspective). I thought, 'okay, I'm gonna do that, I'm going to be able to do the splits all my life'. And that just started a challenge for me. And it's just a matter of doing them every day. If you do them every day, you can just keep doing them.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  27:47

So it just becomes part of your practice.

Cherry Hamrick  27:49

Yes.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  27:50

And do you practice yoga as well, daily?

Cherry Hamrick  27:52

Not daily, I'm not as good as I should be. But I've just always loved yoga, for the stretching and the flexibility, especially as I get older. I'm not quite as flexible in my back as I used to be. I can still do a backbend, kind of, but even just trying it is good for me.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  28:12

Yeah...

Cherry Hamrick  28:13

And just stretching just feels good. And you know, years of being a dancer, just stretching, I just always want to stretch.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  28:21

I gonna I'm just going to change tack slightly here, and I'd like to ask you about the menopause, if that's okay? Just in terms of, did you find that you had any difficulties with either confidence, or body movement, things that you used to be able to do, you've suddenly found you have to work harder at, when you started going through menopause? Because I know there's going to be a lot of people listening to this, that are perhaps coming up to that time and would love to know your story.

Cherry Hamrick  28:48

For me, I think again, you know, I just always had stretched I'd always had moved. I didn't become a runner until I was in my thirties, just because I had small children and life. But I did find I had to work a little harder at stretching and be more consistent and more dedicated to stretching and moving, because what could happen. It goes away quicker the older you get. So that was just always part of my life to try to counteract that. I guess.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  29:22

That's great. It was just lovely to see that you're still able to do the splits and you've obviously come through that menopause time really positively. So do you have any advice that you can offer to midlife women, Cherry? You know, I don't know any any nuggets pertaining to resilience or adventure or anything that you just carry around with you that you live by. What would you say?

Cherry Hamrick  29:48

One thing I've thought of recently for totally different reasons is I realised I don't live my life in fear. I don't think what's the worst thing that could happen that's going to happen, so I'm not gonna it. I always think I can do stuff. I always think why not try this? Why not do this? I think I just don't want to live in fear. And I don't.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  30:10

That's good. You've actually managed to train your brain to do as you tell it. There's a lot of people that do struggle still with that. Yeah, you've got that down to an art, then that's fabulous. And just a couple of other little things. Actually, this one isn't quite so little. But if we've not talked about it already, is there a HeadRightOut Moment that you can think of something where you really felt you stepped out of your comfort zone? Something that you thought you were totally not capable of doing? But you did you succeeded?

Cherry Hamrick  30:45

Yes, I, I had always been fascinated by Antarctica. I read all the books. Robert Falcon, Scott was my hero, and especially the British-like 'daring-do' of going to Antarctica in crazy conditions, and Shackleton. I just always wanted to go to Antarctica, but it was very expensive - still is, and nobody wanted to go with me. And I just thought, I just have to go. I'm kind of a shy person. And I thought, 'how can I get on a boat with a hundred people that I don't know, and go to Antarctica? And I just thought, 'I just really want to do this'. It was quite a life changing moment to realise I could do that. I didn't have to have somebody with me that I knew. And I emailed, you have to go with the group to get there... and he said, don't worry about it. Because most people will be by themselves on the trip, because it's expensive, and not that many people want to go there. So once I heard that, I thought, well, that makes sense. And I just met amazing people. I was like the least travelled of all of these people. I had a fabulous roommate. And it was such a wonderful experience. I just really had to push myself to do it, and I realised I can go places by myself. So that was a big one for me.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  32:18

That's your HeadRightOut Moment. Wow. And can I ask how old were you when you went to Antartica, Cherry?

Cherry Hamrick  32:24

It was eight years ago, so I'll have to do the math. So I'd been sixty-five/sixty-four maybe,

Zoe Langley-Wathen  32:29

Okay.

Cherry Hamrick  32:30

Sixty-four.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  32:32

Yeah, for a lot of people, that would totally be off their radar, even though it might have been their dream. Some people would say now at that age, I'm not going to go there. But that gives us a lot of hope, yeah. Congratulations for having such an amazing HeadRightOut Moment. Well, we're coming to the end. Is there anything that I've not mentioned that you would like to talk about?

Cherry Hamrick  32:56

Not that I can think of, but I do appreciate people like you so much, that I wish you had been around when I was younger. That you know, encourage women to do things, and do things on their own and try things. I think wome... I hope the next generation is better about that. But I think women need to be more independent and just try stuff.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  33:18

Yeah, and it's trying stuff knowing that they don't necessarily have to depend on somebody else to do it with, like just as you've said, you went to Antarctica on your own. You CAN do these things on your own. You are autonomous, you are a person in your own right. You are not a person that's attached to somebody else, even if you're married or in a relationship you... yeah... you can do these things on your own. Well, thank you very much for saying that, Cherry.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  33:41

Well, this has been an absolute pleasure. And I was so excited when you said that "Yes. I'll come on to the podcast", and I've absolutely been jumping up and down for this particular conversation that we've had. So is there anywhere on social media where people can follow you?

Cherry Hamrick  33:57

I'm on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. I will say I don't post a lot. But I personally don't seem to post a lot. I do when I go on trips. But other than that it's kind of pictures of me paddling down the river.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  34:12

Oh, because you kayak as well, don't you?

Cherry Hamrick  34:18

Yes, yes, yes. Oh, I love kayaking. Lucky enough to live on the river though. A treat for me.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  34:25

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Would you like to tell us what those social media handles are, on Instagram and Twitter please, so people can go and follow you.

Cherry Hamrick  34:33

Sure it's... one is Cherry. Just My name, Cherry Hamrick on Facebook. And on Instagram, it's CHAMRICK. So nothing fancy.

https://www.instagram.com/chamrick/

https://www.facebook.com/cherry.hamrick.9

https://twitter.com/ch3727

Zoe Langley-Wathen  34:46

Brilliant. Okay, and I'll pop that in the show notes as well so that people can link to it there. So I just like to end with one thing here that and this was something that you had written in your original bio that you sent to me. I thought this would be something wonderful to finish with. Because this is all about inspiring women to head out of their comfort zone, do something that scares them every day, or do something that they didn't think that they were originally capable of.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  35:12

Once you had been to Antarctica, apparently you were giving a presentation. And you had said in this presentation about how you didn't think you were able to go because you're a little bit shy, but now that you've made lifelong friends. And a woman came to you, after the presentation, and said, how you had inspired her to start travelling again, because she thought she was done travelling when her husband died. I think just knowing that you have inspired somebody there and hopefully, when people listen to this, a whole HEAP of other women just makes me feel warm and fuzzy.

Cherry Hamrick  35:53

Yes, that was that was wonderful to me. I just couldn't have asked for anything better. The other comment I got about Antarctica was thank you for going so I don't have to.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  36:05

Oh really, so they were living through your adventures, they were living vicariously.

Cherry Hamrick  36:13

Yes, a lot of people do NOT want to go to Antarctica.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  36:18

Well, Cherry, thank you so much. Thank you for sharing all your wisdom, all your wonderful tales. And I'm sure we'll catch up with you again at some point. But thank you very much.

Cherry Hamrick  36:29

Thank you so much. This has been fun reliving all of that.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  36:32

Brilliant. Thank you.

Cherry Hamrick  36:34

Yes, thank you.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  36:44

Well, that was such amazing advice from Cherry. With her daily walking since us recording back a few weeks ago, she's now at 567 days of walking every single day consecutively, no gaps, of at least one mile a day. But I think it's averaging out at about four miles a day. They have covered over two thousand miles. It's just incredible! She has such a strong history of resilience. And I still can't believe that she is actually seventy-three years old. In fact, I have an apology to make to Cherry, because I know in last week's episode, when I was introducing the next week's episode, I said she was seventy-four! So Cherry, I am SO sorry for that.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  37:35

But I so want to bottle her energy and positivity to save for a 'down day'. You know, we all need that sometimes, or even better, just listen to this episode again, to get that fix of 'Cherry determination', and 'Cherry resolve' and 'Cherry adventure mindset'. It's just amazing. As she said, everything she does IS an adventure and what a sensible way to treat every single day of your life.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  38:05

I actually asked Cherry after the recording, what's next for her? And her reply was that she'd loved to go and see the narwhals but she realises it's such an expense, and there's only one or two places you can go for that experience. I think that's Greenland or Canada. So she says that might have to be a long-term goal. Instead, it might be a trip to Iceland, and I can really see that she is just drawn to cold places. And no wonder her hero was Scott. But I just love Cherry's message about not wanting to live in fear and how her can-do attitude just must rub off on those that she talks to and all those people who surround her. But yes, a true inspiration.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  38:51

Now I had a great message today. Today's 3rd October 2021, and I had a message this morning from Donna, who is a Kiwi, living in Australia, and we've had a few communications in the past. She was one of my wonderful people that stayed up late, or got up really early to watch my Royal Geographical Society Microlecture, back in March, which was live.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  39:18

Donna has sent in this week's HeadRightOut Moment for us to share and celebrate. So I am going to read it pretty much as Donna wrote it to me because you really need to hear this:

Zoe Langley-Wathen  39:31

A real HeadRightOut Moment. My then eight-year old had been doing judo and when she got her yellow belt, she was allowed to go in the inter-club competitions, and I did the typical parent line of encouraging her to have a go, try your best and, just have fun. Given I was at the club with her three times a week and my inner ten-year old was itching to have a go at jumping on crash mats etc. I started. I got my yellow belt and the first thing my daughter said was that now I could compete at next weekend's inter-club competition, with a huge, expectant look on her face. If I had said no, I would have been the biggest hypocrite out there, but it certainly wasn't my intention to compete. And to top it off, I was up against a young lass who was seriously good. A brown belt. And two weeks later, she won a gold at the national champs! It was a serious adrenaline rush, and it started something.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  40:29

Now I'm just going to interrupt here there is an amazing photograph of Donna in mid-action, and I'm going to post this in the show notes. She goes on to say my last competition and my first international one was in 2014, the Bali Open. I managed to get a silver medal and was probably the oldest competitor at aged forty-five. She says judo gave me the confidence to go do the Camino. So in 2015 I walked the VDLP, which is the Via de la Plata. I'm not doing Judo at the moment, although her message reads, my old coach harasses me every other week. She's got distracted by walking, and she needs to get fitter, she says so she doesn't get injured. And every time I think I might go, it's a damn lockdown. I do love the sport though, and I binged on the Olympic coverage.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  41:25

So do go to the show notes and have a look at the amazing photograph of Donna doing one of her moves. It's definitely mid-action. If you want to go have a look at some of the other things that Donna posts, her Instagram handle is Missy Wombat. M.I.S.S.Y Wombat. Missy Wombat. I will pop that link in the show notes as well, so you can all go and have a look and she posts some beautiful nature photographs and wildlife photographs from around Australia. I think she lives up in the Northern Territory. So yes, do go and check out Donna, Missy Wombat.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  42:04

Okay, so next week we have the incredible Jo Moseley who funnily enough Sarah Williams mentioned in Episode Three, and I was quietly smiling to myself because I knew that Jo was going to be coming on because I'd already done the interview. Now Jo is a midlife joy encourager, she's a litter picker, and a long distance stand up paddleboarder. So we've already had Helen Jenkins, who is a stand up paddleboard instructor. Jo - yes, she fits into the bracket of long distance stand up paddleboarding. And she also hosts her own podcast too. It's so full of positivity. So you really do need to come back next week and listen to that.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  42:51

Now other little bits and bobs of news that I need to share with you today. So I was in the Simply supplement magazine by Woman&Home just recently, and unfortunately, although I knew it was coming out at the beginning of September, when I went to find it, I couldn't find it anywhere. So I assumed I wasn't in it. I messaged the journalist. She's only just got back to me to say it was in and it's been and gone. So it went I think 23rd of September was when it disappeared. I have asked to see if I can get a couple of print copies off a back issue or something. It's still exciting. I have got a PDF which I can share. So I'll make those available on my socials and on the website as well for you to have a look at.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  43:40

Also I've got to say a HUGE thank you for all the follows and all the downloads. Last week HeadRightOut made it to the number 100 spot ranking in the charts in the UK and it even made number 56. It's out of 250. It made number 56 in Spain. So everybody is helping me to grow the show. Thank you. Thank you so much for doing this. And you can actually do more still by sharing the podcast or talking to friends telling a friend about the pod. Tell them what you enjoy and yes, share it with others. Let's get HeadRightOut to blast into view and make such an impact for the benefit of all the midlife women out there.

Zoe Langley-Wathen  44:25

Okay, right. Well, that's all I have to say, which was actually quite a long reflection this week. But please come back next week for more encouragement to head right out of your comfort zone and into the outdoors. Keeping your head right and healthy. See you there.

Cherry Hamrick's social links again here:

 

https://www.instagram.com/chamrick/

https://www.facebook.com/cherry.hamrick.9

https://twitter.com/ch3727

Helen Jenkins, co-founder of the newest stand up paddleboarding school on the Mon and Brec Canal delivers their very first session to Zoe and her husband. Sharing the business start-up considerations for Blorenge SUP while still working full-time, Helen also offers the importance of a paddleboard session with an instructor and what students can expect to learn under her tuition. Concentration and mindfulness are key to not falling in!

Helen is keen to encourage everyone to try stand up paddleboarding and talks with enthusiasm about what it means to her personally and how she first found herself ‘having a go’, when surfing didn’t cut it for her. She believes it’s an activity that helps to keep you young and will take every opportunity to throw her board onto the canal and go for a blast!

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  00:22

Well hello there lovely people, welcome back to the HeadRightOut Podcast. My name is Zoe Langley-Wathen and we're here with episode four today - I can't believe we're on to the fourth episode already. It's just this is such a whirlwind and it's so exciting. What's even more exciting today is that we are going to be talking to Helen Jenkins. Now this was a recording that was done, quite a few months ago now. June, if I remember right. This is a slightly different recording because it's shorter and there are some different sound qualities to it, partly because we're cruising on the boat. Partly because we have boats going by, and because we have people out on the towpath. This is a face-to-face recording, not done over Zoom or over the phone, so please excuse the recording. It's still a great episode with Helen.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  01:09

So Helen is a paddleboard instructor. She and Damon, her husband have just recently launched their new paddleboard school in Monmouthshire. It's near Abergavenny and it is the only paddleboard school on the Mon and Brec Canal. So I'm not going to say anything else we're just gonna launch straight into the conversation.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  01:35

So if you can hear background noise it's because we are cruising the boat down to Gilwern. We are going down to meet Helen and Damon who are the founders of Blorenge SUP, and this is very exciting for both us and them because this week is their launch week, for their new stand up paddleboard school. This week, it was also Mike's birthday, so I have got him a paddleboard lesson for his birthday and we happen to be their first customers. So this is a very exciting time around.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  02:15

Hello Heron! The heron has just sprung out from underneath the bushes. That was amazing. He was about a metre away from me. Such graceful creatures. Right, we're cruising the boat down and we're just about to go under Bridge 101, so we're not too far away. We've got to get to Bridge 104. I'm looking forward to having a chat to Helen after we've had our session. I think we're going to be doing a little bit of mini celebrations for Blorenge SUP, and for us as well. Because this will be my first interview for HeadRightOut... and it sounds like my kettle's boiling. Wouldn't you know it?

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  03:10

Okay, well hello everybody and welcome. Today is the 21st... no, it's not, it's not even the 21st. It is the 19th I'm ahead of myself. It's the 19th of June 2021, and today is an exciting day, because I have certainly headed out of my comfort zone today. I have been for a paddleboarding lesson with my husband. It was a birthday present, and I bought him the birthday present, because a friend of mine that I have made whilst I've been living up here on the canal has just set up her own paddleboarding business and it's Blorenge SUP, founded by the wonderful Helen and Damon Jenkins. Hello Helen!

 

Helen Jenkins  03:53

Hello.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  03:54

How are you, Helen? How are you feeling?

 

Helen Jenkins  03:56

I'm good, thank you, yeah.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  03:57

I'm feeling very bubbly after that fizz. My knees are wobbling for different reasons. I'm really really grateful to you for just taking the time to come and talk to us like this, because you've been working hard. You've spent some time working with Mike and I, on the canal. I hope we haven't been too difficult, but yes we've we've been up and down paddleboarding on the Mon and Brec Canal, and it's been absolutely amazing. And we even broke open a bottle of fizz. I say we, YOU broke open a bottle of fizz to celebrate, because this is not just OUR first time, or Mike's first time, (it's my third), but tell me this is quite an historical moment for you, isn't it?

 

Helen Jenkins  04:43

It is today was our very first ever Blorenge SUP paddleboard session, and I was so pleased when I saw that Zoe had booked it for her and Mike. It absolutely made my day. So it has been... I was absolutely thrilled to do it and the first time nerves evaporated. But as soon as I saw you guys, because I just thought this is gonna be such a lovely start to this, you know this whole job. This whole thing.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  05:11

Of course it's a journey isn't it? It's an adventure. And I have to say I was I mean I was excited anyway when you told me that you were starting this business, Blorenge SUP. And so is it Blorenge SUP, not Blorenge S. U. P. is that what you just said?

 

Helen Jenkins  05:23

Yes, either or. It stands for stand up paddleboards.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  05:27

Yes, yeah. Okay, so yeah, I was really excited when you said you were starting Blorenge SUP, and I had in the back of my head that I wanted to get a lesson booked in for Mike for his birthday, which happened to be last week. So when you messaged me to say it's happening, we've had the go-ahead from the Canal and River Trust, it was like, 'wow, this is this is definitely going to work!' And then I spotted, just purely by coincidence, because I'd liked Blorenge SUP on Facebook, I spotted the post that came up to say 'we're taking bookings'. I was in there like a rocketI! It was pure instinct. And just yeah, it just kicked in, and I booked. I didn't know we were the first. I'm just delighted that we were. It worked out really well. So, Helen... I mean, where did this all start?

 

Helen Jenkins  06:17

Well, Damon actually introduced me to the sport. He's taken up surfing and sort of in early middle age really, and I never really got on with surfing. I think I was probably too late to the party there. But then when we started moving on, he said come and try stand up paddleboarding. I absolutely loved that. That was totally my game. I've always loved the water, in an y case. That sort of swimming in and I like the hand plane. I don't know if anybody's aware of that. But definitely paddleboarding, you can go as fast as you want, or if you just want to get on the water and give yourself a chance to relax at the end of the day. That's what I really like, is just getting my board out after work, chucking it on the canal and just being in the moment.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  07:09

I know it feels like a real buzzword at the moment, but it's such mindfulness, isn't it? Just being able to go out there and paddle, and like you say go at your own speed and take in the sights, and I might not be at that place just yet. But I did experience it today I had a few wobbles and I had a few shakes and I know you spotted my knees shakes, particularly when I was getting up from my kneeling position up to my standing position.

 

Helen Jenkins  07:36

Yeah...

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  07:36

I haven't done that for a couple of years. I have been paddleboarding twice before but once was seven years ago, in Poole Harbour, and the other one was in Shropshire with my good friend Arry. And, you know, I had the same shakes then, but I think it's going to take me a while to get back into that. But I definitely, definitely felt that almost feeling of meditation. And you'd asked me one question, (and I have to apologise for this right now), but I know I realise now what you're doing, but you asked me one question. I think it's something about HeadRightOut, and that was it.... I was blah-de-blah-de-blah-de-blah. And I suddenly went from the knee wobbles went and I just clicked into this autopilot, and was just appreciating where I was. And it took my mind off of being scared. So that was really clever, thank you! So I'm gonna stop blah-de-blah-de-blah, now. So how long did it take for you to set up?

 

Helen Jenkins  08:35

I think it's probably taken about at least eighteen months to get to this point where we're actually able to offer the first session. We've talked about it and so we started doing the training to become instructors with the Water Skills Academy. So we had to do the Water Safety Course. We've done the Foundation Instructors Course. And in between that we've had to do the three-day First Aid and really start getting all the paperwork together, and get the permissions of the Canal and River Trust in order to operate. We live in a beautiful area. So everything that we want to do is really about complementing the area. We don't want to cause harm. We want to just share it with other people who might have an interest in paddleboarding but be too nervous to outlay all the money to buy one, and they've not really had the confidence to take it on the canal, or have a bad experience and then it just gathers dust.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  09:32

Yeah and I guess if somebody has already bought a paddleboard and is maybe in that situation, this is a good opportunity for them to come out and improve that experience and get used you know build that confidence and get used to being on their board. You know I'm now thinking well I've just spent two hours out on the canal with you and I'm thinking when am I going to get to do it again! So you know it might be that we end up having to buy a paddleboard and we'll find a place or tuck it either in the van or on the boat somewhere.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  10:01

So I have to apologise for any sound that happens whilst we're chatting. We've just had a boat go by, and that's the wonderful nature of living on the canal, you've always got water traffic that's going up and down. So, Helen, you've said about some of the things that you had to do in order to set the business up with the training and certification. And I know you were really nervous in the last few weeks about whether you're going to get permission, potentially, from the Canal and River Trust, to set up your business and operate from here. But what other things did you find that actually stood in your way? And these could be things that are physical barriers, like you know, red tape, or it potentially could be mental barriers, you know, that you've put up yourself? If you're anything like me, you know, I put those up all the time.

 

Helen Jenkins  10:52

Actually the paperwork is just a process that you go through and it's just about being patient and making sure that you do exactly what's asked that they're there for a reason.  I think the biggest hurdle for me has been making sure that we can, we're managing our time because we both work full time. So I think my models in the past few weeks have actually be more about having to put time aside in order to dedicate to completing the paperwork. And that certainly ramped up in the past couple of weeks and now we've got the sessions and we're in the lovely position of actually being able to say when we can operate the sessions and that's the fun bit actually it's lovely to meet people. Whenever we go out on the water, you always see something and the wildlife around here is absolutely divine. You always see something different every time you go out and it's a really lovely calm setting. You don't get waves it's very calm. It's quite shallow. It's warm, so it's a really nice, fairly safe place to operate. For beginners to try it's really nice.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  11:58

Yeah, there's no tides are there. I think that the most you'll get is a slight wash from a boat, when a boat goes by - but that's not a wave exactly!

 

Helen Jenkins  12:06

No, that's right. It's a great beginners place.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  12:09

Yeah ripples, we saw a few ripples from the wind as it started to increase today but it wasn't anything that we needed to be concerned about today, although I'm sure there probably are times where you do need to be mindful of that.

 

Helen Jenkins  12:22

Yes, there are certain weather conditions where you don't want to be operating on the water and certainly high winds is one of them, so definitely. There's some really good apps that you can download such as 'Windy' and if the wind conditions are too high then you simply don't go on. It's got to be a fun enjoyable experience. Don't put yourself at risk.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  12:43

Yes, that's that's really good advice. So how would you encourage those then Helen, that really feel that fear because you know HeadRightOut, it's all about stepping outside of your comfort zone and doing something that's a new experience and this for me was a relatively new experience but not completely new but I still I still felt that fear today and I still had those moments where I've wobbled and thought 'gosh really?!' and I still dreamt about it last night which is always a sign that it is on my mind. So what advice would you give to encourage people to face their fears and go ahead and try stuff for the first time?

 

Helen Jenkins  13:26

Definitely make sure you go with an instructor. Go with a SUP school. We are able to provide all of the equipment that is required for your first time in the water. It's about wearing comfortable clothes that you do feel happy to wear and actually just being a little bit brave, that is really key. You've got instructors with you who know the area and will tailor the session to your ability and skills so that you enjoy it. Wherever you get to in that session, it needs to be something that you think, I'd like to try that again. I think if you come off the water feeling like 'I achieved something', then then you're ready for the next step.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  14:11

Yes and I DEFINITELY felt like I've achieved something today. What are your age ranges that you deal with? I say deal with, I mean 'offer'. Offer sounds much nicer doesn't it?

 

Helen Jenkins  14:24

Over 12 at the moment and if they're underage, if it's a group under eighteen, we need to have them with a parent on the water as well. A parent or guardian will need to be on the water as well with them.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  14:35

And what about an upper age limit?

 

Helen Jenkins  14:36

We haven't really, because it's down to how you are. You can be really fit and well at 95 you know and feel that you really like to try it and and absolutely, why not? If you are physically fit, and physically well there's no reason why you shouldn't give it a whirl.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  14:53

Brilliant. And yeah, I mean I have to say, Mike obviously he's sixty-nine, he was sixty-nine a couple of days ago. He does have a few hip problems. And he had a little bit sciatica today as well. And he managed pretty well I thought, all things considered. He hadn't told me he had sciatica issues. But yeah, and he, you know, he hopped off for a while and took a few moments to let his body get used to being off the board. And then he got back on again a bit later. So yes, it worked well.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  15:29

Right. So well, this is this has been a very, very exciting day, then all in all. You're hoping that Blorenge SUP is going to take off. It's been exciting in that you have built up quite a lot of bookings between last week and August. And I'm just I'm interested to know where you see this in, say, three or four years time?

 

15:55

Well, you know, what we've been absolutely blown away, really, with the number of bookings that we've had, I think we launched on Thursday, we put the announcement out and we put the first bookings on, I just couldn't believe the the number of inquiries that came through within twenty-four hours. And literally three days after making that announcement, we are fully booked through June, July, and now into August. It's been absolutely incredible. There really is a pent-up interest. And just people are really keen to do stuff that's local, and we are lucky enough to have this on our doorstep. In three or four years time, I would love to see this become something that that we can scale up, that we can devote more time to. Damon and I both work full time at the moment. So it's just weekends, and perhaps one night in the week that we're going to be able to do through the summer months between May and perhaps probably really the middle of October in all honesty, and then probably a bit quieter through the winter months. So yes, if it can be something we can do into retirement and beyond. That would be absolutely phenomenal. Making your hobby your job. You know, it's an absolute dream, isn't it?

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  17:05

Oh, yes, it would be fabulous. And I have to say I've got to just roll back there to something that you said - you work full time? Wow. I mean that that is incredible! When you think about what you have to do at work, and then the enormity of setting up a business like this. It's taken you eighteen months of hard graft I'm sure, to set this up and launch on Thursday. I mean that really does deserve a big medal and a big, big up to you and Damon and to Blorenge SUP, because you're still working full time, you're still operating this but still working full time. So I yes, I really do hope that this levers itself into something that you can scale up and start filtering out your full time job and weaving into something that is more SUP-orientated. You also said being able to continue into retirement if you wanted to. And I think that's wonderful to be considering something that is suited to you in your older years. And that just speaks volumes about SUP, about supping, doesn't it? That it's something for all ages,

 

Helen Jenkins  18:17

It is and I think it's not just keeping your body going. It's about keeping your mind going as well. And this is a really social activity to do. And you go out in the canal and you'll always meet people walking along the towpath. Everybody's happy to stop and talk to you. There's lots of people with an interest in it. You can go out and peer paddle. You can go and join other groups. There's a real online community around this and a real drive by lots of organizations to get people participating in it. So it is it's huge at the moment and I do see it's something that keeps you young keeps you young

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  18:53

I love that. And would you say safety-wise, is it okay to go out on your own?

 

Helen Jenkins  18:59

I think it would be you really do need to go out with an instructor in the first instance. You absolutely need to make safety your first priority, you need to make sure you've got the right kit, that you understand the weather conditions, that somebody knows where you're going and when you're going to come back. If you're doing it in different water environments, they all come with very different concerns and risks. So if you're out on the sea, there's a whole new range of issues that you need to take into consideration. I would definitely say to go out with a school or an instructor until you are really comfortable and really aware of what you need to put in place.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  19:33

I would echo that. I think having gone out with you today, I definitely feel more confident than I did earlier and I know that I am going to need perhaps some more instruction before I then feel comfortable with going out on my own. But yes, it was definitely an enjoyable experience.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  19:50

So what drives you, Helen, I mean this is a bizarre question perhaps, but you've got so much going on in your life, potentially with work, and with family, and home, you know, what drives you? And what keeps you going to do this?

 

20:05

Oh, well, it's lovely. At the end of the day, there's nothing better than getting the board chucking it on the canal and going for a blast. You know, it's a really good way of taking your focus away from whatever's happened during the day, and just having a look and taking in what's around you, just having a chat with people. You can instantly feel yourself relax, and you've got to be in the moment, otherwise, you're going to fall in. So you do need to concentrate. And actually that's really refreshing. You get back, and you've taken a breath, you've absorbed some of the green, you've seen the heron, or you've seen the kingfisher, or have you watched the fish jumping out, and it just transports you. So you know, it's not another thing to tick off my list at the end of the day. It's just absolutely something that uplifts me. It's pure pleasure, really,

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  20:50

And what better driving force to have than that? Pure passion and pure pleasure. I mean, you speak from a place of passion, I can hear it. And the fact that you enjoy it is pure pleasure for you. You just share that and you offload that to us. And we feel that, you know, when we're learning with you, it's so fabulous.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  21:07

So Helen, where can people find you if they're interested in finding out more about what you do, perhaps booking with you, and finding out where you operate from.

 

Helen Jenkins  21:16

So if you put Blorenge SUP into Google, we will come up, and it will take you straight to our website. You can have a little look at us. It's a booking online system, which is available. Our phone numbers are on there, or you can email us if you've got any questions or queries. We operate from Gilwern from the launch site at Gilwern. There's a car park there, there's a picnic area there. Very accessible. And it's on a really nice stretch of the Mon and Brec Canal

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  21:43

Oh Mon and Brec is just... I know we're both probably really biased, because you pretty much live on it, and we do live on it! And it is just beautiful. It You know, it runs around the contours of the hills and the mini mountains and the views are just spectacular, aren't they? So yes, what better place to learn to SUP than here. Wonderful. Well, Helen, thank you so much for your time. You've given us two hours of your time tutoring us. And now you've given us time just sharing more about Blorenge SUP. But I really do wish you well, and I'm pretty certain the listeners will wish you well in the success for your business. But thank you very much for coming and talking to us.

 

Helen Jenkins  22:26

Thank you very much for having me.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  22:27

Thank you.

 

Helen Jenkins  22:28

It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

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Zoe Langley-Wathen  22:35

Well, I hope you appreciated the nature of the raw sounds that were generated from that journey along the canal on the boat, and the sounds from the towpath too. It wasn't the quietest of episodes, I realise that, but it is what it is. And even the noise of the other boats going by just add to the character and the liveliness of the episode!

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  22:57

Now I've got to say as nervous as I was on the paddleboard, Helen made me feel so comfortable. Each time I go back on a board, I still get the jelly legs at the moment, but it doesn't seem to last quite as long and I can always hear Helen in the back of my head just coaxing me through, talking me through what I need to do and the power and the importance of having tuition like that. Just having a couple of hours with an instructor is not to be sniffed at. It was so so helpful.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  23:26

Now I can't quite believe what Helen was talking to us about. But it's taken them eighteen months to set Blorenge SUP up, that they are both working full time, as well as running this new business. That is absolute commitment and what a passion. What a passion project. They are just working to get this and make this a full and vibrant new business. And there's such a need for people to get out there now and onto the water and learn paddleboarding. It's such a good time for them. I love what Helen said, "it's something that keeps you young". Cor, I need that definitely! But also I loved the way she said that she just looks forward to the end of the day, the end of the day of working and there's nothing better for her than getting the board and just chucking it on the canal and going for a blast. I just loved how she said that and just taking you away from whatever else has been happening for you during the day. Yeah, that really hit home for me. And that's what being outside and that outdoor medicine is all about. It's just having that opportunity to be mindful and to be in the moment and to be outside.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  24:39

Now I thanked Sarah Williams last week for inspiring me to start this podcast journey. And this week. I would really like to thank Lynsay Anne, Lynsay Anne Gould. She is the founder of Podcasting for Business and her new venture The Podcast Boutique, and she has given me so much support and technical advice, and has always been on hand to answer any silly questions that I might have had. Yes, I'm so grateful. So Lynsay Anne, thank you so much. This has been such a crazy whirlwind, and finally, I feel like I'm finding my feet.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  25:22

Although this podcast is aimed at midlife women, we welcome HeadRightOut Moments from anyone. So we've got a HeadRightOut Moment to share and celebrate today. So that can be teenagers. That could be younger people in their twenties and thirties. Men, I just want to let you know you're not you're not cancelled out it can be anyone. If you have stepped out of your comfort zone and done something that you really felt pushed you beyond the boundaries of what you would normally do. And then you felt like you've benefitted from it. Let me know, and you know, I could be reading your story out on here too. I love to share these moments because it just goes to show other people it proves to other people the power of stretching that comfort zone. So today, this is a HeadRightOut Moment from Glen Pilkington. I know Glen through the Yes Tribe. And he follows HeadRightOut on Instagram and on Facebook. And when I posted a picture of me paddleboarding a few weeks ago, and I asked if there was anybody else who had pushed themselves out of their comfort zone like I had that day because I've had a real case of wobbly legs, he came back at this is what he says:

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  26:32

"After leaving hospital and recovering from COVID. I realized it would be some time before heading back to the mountains. So I picked up my camera again and started completing low level routes and sharing my photos".

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  26:49

That was just a short and sweet message. But he added this super lake shore photograph. It was a moody sky and mountains in the background, and this beautiful glassy lake. And Glen is standing there with his back to the camera looking wistfully I'm assuming at the mountains, probably wishing he could go up and adventure there. But what a beautiful photo and I know the power of being outside and regaining his need to be outside by taking his camera out there and sharing the photos with us, his followers. It's kicked off his love for being outside again. And I'm sure that was you know, really hard to do after having COVID. I don't think it was a mild COVID; I know he was hospitalized, so not a pleasant experience. So Glen, thank you very much. If you want to go and have a look at some of Glen's photos, you can follow him on Instagram at gp._everydayadventurer. That's gp._everydayadventurer. Glen Pilkington, thank you!

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  27:59

So next week, we are going to be chatting with Cherry Hamrick. She is 74-years-old with the energy and enthusiasm of a 24-year-old and she has been walking every day for well over 500 days now since the first lockdown! And she's oh, she's a kayaker, she's a dancer, she does the splits. She does THE most amazing splits. I mean, I have never been able to do the splits. But Cherry can. So yes, we will be chatting to Cherry next week.

 

Zoe Langley-Wathen  28:32

Don't forget to hit 'follow' in your podcast app and share, share, share. Let's help HeadRightOut grow to what it should be. Let's get the message out there. I hope my conversation with Helen may have inspired you to head out of your comfort zone and into the outdoors. Keeping your head right and healthy.

HeadRightOut Hugs to you all. x