Drowned in Sound – Détails, épisodes et analyse

While most music industry coverage focuses on (poly)crisis and collapse, Mary Spender argues we're living through the greatest era for independent artists in history.

But, but but... what about streaming economics, venue closures, and platform dependence? Don't worry, we get into it.

With over 100 million YouTube views, 34,000 newsletter subscribers, and significant album sales achieved before releasing a single track to streaming, Mary demonstrates there are viable alternatives to industry doom-spiralling.

In this conversation, she reveals her strategies for converting YouTube viewers into album buyers, why artists need to think like entrepreneurs, and what she'd build with Spotify's $400 million Joe Rogan budget.

Sean also asks her about her recent video about why artists should embrace YouTube. Speaking of which, you will be able to see clips from this interview over on Drowned in Sound's YouTube: youtube.com/@DrownedinSound

Timestamps

00:00 Sean's Intro

03:21 What will music be like in 2050?

06:25 Why artists should think like entrepreneurs

12:45 What does the future hold for independent artists?

16:56 The 1000 true fan theory

18:51 Should YouTube be the #1 platform for musicians?

24:36 Researching with an open mind. A rare skillset?

29:45 How to convert an audience from YouTube

34:17 What can the UK government do for music?

36:35 How would Mary spend the $400 million Spotify paid Joe Rogan?

38:39 Is long-form content on the return?

43:29 Sean's Outro

Quotable Moments "Technically it's never been a better time to be a musician than today, even though everyone likes to talk about the heyday. But that was for a very lucky few." "If you don't have the grassroots, you don't have the artists in Wembley Stadium. Like you don't have that trajectory."

Continue the Conversation📧 Email sean@drownedinsound.org with your questions for future episodes🌐 Join the Drowned in Sound Community📰 Subscribe to the Drowned in Sound newsletter

Guest Links Mary Spender's YouTube Channel Mary's website and newsletter The Dire Straits Documentary on Nebula

Referenced in Episode Kevin Kelly's "1000 True Fans" essay

About the Host: Sean Adams is the founder of Drowned in Sound (est. 2000), manages artists including Charlotte Church and The Anchoress, and has worked with BBC 6 Music. Through this podcast, he maps the future of music by exploring culture, politics, and the systems shaping how we create and consume music. At its peak, Drowned in Sound had over 3 million readers. Stay tuned for details about its 25th anniversary celebrations.

What does it feel like to attend Glastonbury for the first time?

Music journalist Emma Wilkes brings us along for her debut pilgrimage to the UK's landmark musical gathering. She spins us a sonic diary with interviews from Terminal 1 and Laima Layton, along with reactions to some of the politically charged moments of the festival (shouts to Amyl and the Sniffers).

Along the way, there are vox pops with strangers, overlooked corners, and moments that slipped under the mainstream radar…

00:00 Introduction

01:51 Pre-festival preparation with Emma Wilkes

03:26 Attendees' expectations of Glastonbury 2025

04:22 First impressions and Thursday observations

06:19 Terminal 1 and an interview with Laima Layton

18:32 The sounds of Worthy Farm

19:12 How does the real-life festival compare to the coverage seen previously?

21:45 The political moments of Glastonbury 2025

30:42 The journey home, the Tuesday after, and a summary from a slightly raspy Emma

34:11 Expectations vs. reality with the people of the festival

Mentioned in the episode:

Laima Layton

In Place Of War

GRRRL

Terminal 1

Amyl and the Sniffers

JADE

Seun Kuti

Maruja

Lambrini Girls

• Join the conversation: Drowned in Sound Community
• Email: sean@drownedinsound.org
• Stay updated: Subscribe to DiS newsletter

What makes a great music city? How do governments, venues, and fans keep local music scenes alive? And why is music still not treated as an essential part of a city’s economy?

In this episode of the Drowned in Sound Podcast, Sean Adams speaks with Shain Shapiro, founder of Sound Diplomacy and a leading advocate for integrating music into urban policy. Shain has advised cities and governments worldwide on how to invest in music, build better infrastructure, and ensure that artists and venues don’t just survive but thrive.

The future of music scenes isn’t just about artists - it’s about infrastructure, investment, and policy. Without real change, we risk losing the cultural spaces that make music thrive.

Topics Covered:

The future of music cities: Why local scenes are vital and how they can be protected

Music as an economic and public good: Why governments should treat music like any other essential sector

Emerging music markets: Where the global music hotspots of the future might be

Live Nation: How monopolies shape local music ecosystems

The importance of local media and community spaces in sustaining music scenes

How cities can future-proof music amid climate, economic, and technological shifts

Shain Shapiro explains: “We don’t make data-driven decisions about music the way we do about transit, healthcare, or housing, yet music is an essential part of a city’s fabric.”

Episode Highlights & Timestamps:

00:00 – Introduction: Can We Save Our Music Scenes?

01:04 – The Future of Music: What Will 2050 Sound Like?

02:33 – The Big Challenges Facing the Music Industry

04:44 – Music as an Economic & Public Good: Why Governments Should Care

09:11 – Shain’s Journey: From Record Shops to Global Music Policy

14:08 – Music Cities: How Governments Can Invest in Local Scenes

19:51 – Global Music Growth: Why Africa & Southeast Asia Are the Future

28:25 – Community & Local Government’s Role in Music Sustainability

35:50 – The Live Nation Monopoly, Local Media, & How Cities Can Push Back

40:00 – Final Thoughts: What Needs to Change & What Fans Can Do

Further Reading & Resources:

Sound Diplomacy – Leading global consultancy on music and city planning

Making Places Better Newsletter – Shain Shapiro’s insights on improving urban spaces through music and culture

Music Venue Trust – Protecting grassroots venues

Cardiff Music Strategy – A model for city-led music investment

Fonds de la Musique Canada – Canada’s funding model for music exports

Live DMA – European network for live music venues

Join the discussion on the Drowned in Sound Community, message me on Bluesky, or email me at sean@drownedinsound.org.

Get More Music Insights – Subscribe to the Drowned in Sound Newsletter for deep dives into the future of music.

About the Host:

Sean Adams is the founder of Drowned in Sound, established in 2000 as a pioneering music webzine. Beyond his editorial work, Sean manages artists such as Charlotte Church and The Anchoress, operates the DiS independent record label, and contributes to strategic communications for music initiatives like Music Venue Trust. His passion lies in championing diverse music scenes and supporting artists across genres.

About the Guest:

Shain Shapiro, PhD is the founder and executive chairman of Sound Diplomacy, the leading global consultancy on music and city planning. He also serves as the executive director of the not-for-profit Center for Music Ecosystems. Shain has authored This Must Be The Place: How Music Can Make Your City Better, exploring the intersection of music and urban development. His work has influenced over 130 cities worldwide to invest in music and culture, redefining the value of music in urban settings.

Music has long been a force for change but as extreme weather disrupts events and the industry grapples with its own environmental footprint, can music be a meaningful part of the climate justice movement?

In episode 2 of season 3 of the Drowned in Sound Podcast, Sean Adams speaks with Frances Fox, founder of Climate Live and a leader in the UK’s youth climate strikes.

Frances shares her journey from music fan to activist, why festivals are powerful spaces for engagement, and how the music industry can move beyond greenwashing to drive real action.

This episode explores:

Why festivals are at risk from the climate crisis

How music fans can help shape the climate conversation

The role of artists, venues & labels in pushing for a sustainable future

The reality of music’s carbon footprint and what needs to change

The Solar-Powered Pink Bus—and why Climate Live is taking a message of climate justice straight to festival crowds whilst applying glitter and temporary tattoos

From touring impacts to activism strategies, this episode breaks down the intersection of music and climate justice, offering real insights into what fans, artists, and the industry can do next.

“Engaging the unengaged is my jam—when you meet people where they're at, like at a festival, it's very chill.”

– Frances Fox

Episode Highlights:

00:00 – Introduction: Can Music Be a Force for Climate Justice?05:00 – Frances Fox’s Journey: From Festival-Goer to Climate Activist09:20 – Festivals & Climate Change: How Extreme Weather Is Reshaping Live Music15:40 – Touring, Vinyl & Streaming: The Hidden Environmental Cost of Music22:00 – The Solar-Powered Pink Bus: Taking Climate Conversations to Festivals30:00 – Roles in the Resistance: How Fans & Artists Can Push for Industry Change40:00 – Call to Action: What’s Next & How Listeners Can Get Involved

Further Reading & Resources:

Climate Live – Join the movement and apply to perform

Fridays for Future – Global climate strike movement

Choked Up – Campaigning for air quality in marginalized communities

Disha Ravi – Indian climate activist's Wiki

Roles in the Resistance Poster – Find your place in climate activism

Julie's Bicycle – Sustainability in the creative arts

Tori Tsui – Climate activist and author of It's Not Just You

Dominique Palmer – Climate activist and speaker

Music Declares Emergency – Musicians demanding climate action

Music Venue Trust – Protecting grassroots music venues

Safe Gigs for Women – Creating safer environments for women at gigs

Teach The Future - teachthefuture.uk

Rozzi - Artist who wrote a song about LA fires

Stop Rosebank – Campaign against new oil fields

Fossil Fuel Non-Proliferation Treaty – Ending fossil fuel expansion

EarthPercent – Brian Eno’s initiative for climate funding

Make My Money Matter – How your bank funds fossil fuels

Rainforest Foundation UK – Protecting the Congo Basin

Reverb – Eco-friendly music tours

Massive Attack's Climate Initiatives – Band's efforts for sustainable festivals

📩 Get More Music Insights – Subscribe to the Drowned in Sound Newsletter for deep dives into the future of music: http://drownedinsound.org

🎵 Music by SoundMirror

Why This Matters:

Festivals are already being disrupted—Boardmasters, Standon Calling, and others have faced cancellations due to extreme weather, and independent festivals may not survive rising insurance costs.

The music industry still relies on fossil fuels—From plastic-heavy vinyl production to major labels backed by oil & gas investments, there’s a deeper connection than many realise.

Musicians & fans have power—From sustainable touring to rethinking sponsorships, music can lead the way—but only if more people demand change.

From grassroots venues and youth music programs to Mercury Prize winners, early support shapes who gets to make music—and who doesn’t. But is access to music a right or a privilege?

Music should be for everyone - but is it becoming a luxury only the privileged can afford?

Episode one of season 3 of the DiS podcast, explores how Youth Music -a UK charity funding grassroots projects - is fighting to create fairer opportunities for young musicians facing financial, social, and industry barriers.

In this episode of the Drowned in Sound Podcast, Sean Adams speaks with Matt Griffiths, CEO of Youth Music, about hidden inequalities in the music industry and the work being done to create opportunities for the next generation of musicians.

From youth-led projects and grassroots funding to the systemic barriers keeping working-class musicians out, this episode explores how music’s future can be more inclusive, diverse, and fair.

This episode also features Ezra Collective’s Mercury Prize-winning speech, where they credit their success to the support they received early on:

“This is not just Ezra Collective’s moment, this is a moment for every single organisation that’s championing young people making music.”

Read the full speech here:The Line of Best Fit

The Drowned in Sound Podcast maps the future of music and explores what's happening in the industry right now, with a strong moral compass. It connects music, culture, and ethics, offering deep dives into the issues shaping the way we create, consume, and sustain music.

Why This Matters:

Music has the power to change lives - but only if everyone has the chance to participate. Rising costs, funding cuts, and industry gatekeeping are making it harder than ever for working-class musicians to break through. In this episode, we explore what’s at stake, what’s changing, and how we can fight for a better future in music.

Topics Covered:

• Why music is increasingly a career for the privileged
• From youth projects to Mercury Prizes: why access matters
• How the industry is shutting out working-class talent
• The critical role of Youth Music in opening doors
• The funding crisis: why 25% of grassroots projects are at risk
• “It’s not a pipeline, it’s flight pathways” – how opportunity shapes careers
• What real change looks like - and how to make it happen

Further Reading:

• Youth Music – Find out more and get involved: https://youthmusic.org.uk/
• "I Will Forever Remain Faithful" Essay – Read more: Oxford American
• Drowned in Sound Newsletter – Subscribe for music insights: http://drownedinsound.org

Episode Timestamps:

• 00:00 Introduction: Is Music Becoming a Privilege?
• 01:15 Why Youth Music Exists & What It Does
• 04:30 How the Industry Is Failing Young Artists
• 07:50 What Happens When You Can’t Afford to Make Music?
• 11:10 From Youth Projects to the Mercury Prize – Success Stories
• 14:40 The Funding Crisis: What’s At Risk?
• 18:20 How We Ensure Music’s Future Is For Everyone
• 21:30 Ezra Collective’s Speech & the Power of Community
• 40:00 Final Thoughts & Call to Action

Join the Conversation:

• Who really gets a chance to make music today? Join the discussion on the Drowned in Sound forum or leave a review with your thoughts.
• Support Youth Music – Help fund grassroots music projects: https://youthmusic.org.uk/
• Get More Music Insights – Subscribe to the Drowned in Sound Newsletter for in-depth analysis on the future of music: http://drownedinsound.org

How will music survive until 2050? Will streaming monopolies and economic pressures lead to music’s decline, or can we build a fairer, more sustainable future?

In this season three prologue of the Drowned in Sound Podcast, host Sean Adams (founder of Drowned in Sound) reflects on his lifelong love of music, the systemic challenges facing artists, and what the next 25 years could mean for independent musicians, grassroots venues, and the future of the industry.

In this series, expect big questions, deep dives, and conversations with artists, industry leaders, and changemakers who are shaping what comes next.

Drowned in Sound’s podcast is about a life built around music—but also how music shapes culture, communities, and change.

Topics in this episode:

Why grassroots venues are struggling

How streaming giants control music discovery

The economic realities of being an artist today

Lessons from past music movements and how they shaped the industry

Why music’s future depends on the choices we make now

🎵 Music by Sound Mirror – https://www.soundmirror.co.uk/

📩 Subscribe to the Drowned in Sound newsletter: http://drownedinsound.org

00:00 Introduction: The Future of Music in 2050

00:25 Personal Journey with Music

01:45 Climate Activism & Music’s Role in Change

02:20 Challenges Facing Artists & the Music Industry

03:34 Streaming, Labels & Who Holds the Power

06:13 Economic Disparities & the Struggles of Independent Artists

07:36 The Importance of Community in Music

10:46 Conclusion: The Power & Potential of Music

What do you think the future of music looks like?What challenges should the industry fix first?

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This year marks 25 years since Drowned in Sound launched, and rather than obsessing about the past, we will be gazing into the future, trying to work out what music will be like in 2050.

In this prologue episode, Sean Adams, the founder of Drowned in Sound, reflects a little bit on his 25-year journey and examines the current challenges facing music, from economic barriers to the impact of technology and AI. He discusses the importance of grassroots venues, the role of music in our lives, and the potential for both dystopian and utopian futures. Along the way, he plans on speaking with industry experts, musicians, and pioneers to uncover insights and envision solutions for a sustainable and vibrant music ecosystem. Join this open research project to explore how we can shape a better future for music.

This was an unscripted ramble, so you can read a little more in our recent newsletter.00:00 Introduction: The Big Question for 202500:35 Reflecting on 25 Years of Drowned in Sound02:07 Challenges Facing the Music Industry04:22 Exploring Solutions and Innovations06:53 The Future of Music: Utopia or Dystopia?08:36 Join the Journey: Open Research Project

In part two of this Q&A experiment, Drowned in Sound founder Sean Adams delves into various topics, including the process of discovering new music, the complexities of the music industry, and nostalgic reflections on MySpace and defunct London music venues.

He also touches on the importance of human connection in music curation, potential improvements for music streaming platforms, and the socio-political challenges affecting the UK's music industry post-Brexit. Additionally, Sean reflects on memorable interviews.

Thank you to everyone for your questions, please submit any for the next edition to sean@drownedinsound.org and be sure to subscribe to the newsletter at drownedinsound.org

To mark Drowned in Sound's 24th anniversary and before we begin a new season of the podcast, Drowned in Sound founder Sean Adams answers your questions.

Here are some links related to topics covered in the Q&A in case you'd like more context.

• Listen to: Choose a Bright Morning by Jeniferever on Bandcamp
• Read: Wendy Roby's brilliant review of Plastic Beach by Gorillaz
• Listen to: Mystery Jets featuring Laura Marling
• Read: Mike Diver's 2005 interview with Saul Williams
• Read: DiScover Santigold

Questions for this episode submitted by our social media followers and over on the Drowned in Sound forums:

Sweetsonix on Twitter: A nice easy one. How do we return respect to, and appreciation of, the arts?

Anthony Gibbons who wrote for DiS in the early days: I've had my fair share of interviewing gaffes in my time, so what is the most cringeworthy question you've asked an interviewee and what was their response? 

Body in the Thames: If you had to do it all over again, what one thing would you change?

My Yada on DiS forums: What was the first review on the site?

Drastic Measures: Were you aware that Drowned rhymed with Sound when you came up with the name, or was it just a happy coincidence?

Icarus Smicarus: If you could be a DiS album review, which DiS album review would you be?

Jamie Cameron: What happened to Jeniferever?

Rose Wiles: Favourite gig at Verdis?!

Karl Hamilton: Why weren't Microdisney massive?

Sign up to our newsletter at http://drownedinsound.org

Elijah is a profound thinker and this conversations draws on his influential grime nights with Stormzy & Skepta, writing about music, DJing and to his Yellow Square instagram posts, which are a form of community-building journalism that act as prods and prompts that agitate thoughts into focus.

DiS021 | S2: The Future of the Music Press EP13

From his experience as a pirate radio DJ to running Butterz label & clubnights to being a musician and artist manager, Elijah considers yellow squares to be a former of journalism and the conversation explores the ecosystem that feeds into it and swirls around it.

In this conversation with Drowned in Sound founder Sean Adams, we discuss mediums and spaces, online platforms and club cultures. The conversation sways from curation as a form of journalism, the YouTube mindset, Twitter, 10 minute or 10 hour radio shows.

We also try to deconstruct the gatekeeper and the creative challenges facing people working in music, journalism and anything that involves publishing online. We also discuss the joy of Tumblr, yow electronic music in the UK clusters around its pirate radio, BBC media structures,  and why not all clubs closing is a bad thing.

Quotes out of context:

“What’s the musical equivalent of a community note?”

“Some people say ‘I don’t make any money’. Well, what do you sell?”

“Imagine if a review is all the possibilities that the album lays down”

“It's one bit of work.  With all these different mediums,  but it’s just the language hasn't adjusted  to, to serve that yet, you know what I'm saying?”

“…there's a hundred thousand, ten thousand histories happening at once. And that's like something that music journalism, the box, cannot fully capture.”

“People just think, ‘oh, that's their job to write about music.’ And it's like, no, their job is to sell advertising space  wrapped around the coverage of music. That's what magazines have been historically. Right?”

Links

• Eli1ah on Instagram
• Various links: https://linktr.ee/Eli1ah
• YouTube recommendation: Super Eyepatch Wolf
• YouTube recommendation: Nathan Zed

• Make The Ting album
• Eli1ah's Resident Advisor Takeover
• Further reading: "Close The App, Make The Ting": Elijah's Yellow Squares are making a difference by cutting through the noise (DMY)
• Podcast referenced with Bandcamp founder

Please note, this conversation took place in November 2023.

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