Don’t Kill the Messenger dives deep into the careers of Hollywood’s most influential voices including executives and filmmakers alike. Hosted by entertainment research expert Kevin Goetz, the interviews are more than story-sharing, they are intimate conversations between friends and a powerful filmmaking masterclass. Discover what it really takes to bring your favorite movies to life. Find Don’t Kill the Messenger on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform. Learn how movies begin, and end—with the audience.
Host: Kevin Goetz Producer: Kari Campano Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, Nick Nunez, & Kari Campano Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes Produced at DG Entertainment, Los Angeles CA
Marketing Team: Kari Campano, Dax Ross, Daniel Gamino, & Ashton Brackett
Guest Booking: Kari Campano & Kathy Manabat
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In this engaging episode of Don't Kill the Messenger, host Kevin Goetz interviews his business associate, Bob Levin, about his remarkable journey from Sears catalog copywriter to President of Worldwide Marketing at Disney, Sony Pictures, and MGM, before joining Kevin at Screen Engine in the role of President and COO. Listen in as these two industry veterans share marketing insights and discuss their upcoming book, How to Score in Hollywood (Simon & Schuster, November 11th), which reveals the hidden formula behind a movie’s profitability — showing how audience understanding drives smarter decisions from greenlight to release.
Disney's Renaissance Era (09:00) Bob recounts joining Disney just as Eisner and Katzenberg were revitalizing the studio, leading marketing during 17 consecutive hits, including Down and Out in Beverly Hills, The Lion King, and Pretty Woman.
Marketing Philosophy (15:51) "Good marketing is both instinct and data," Bob explains, describing his pioneering approach of creating targeted messaging for different audience segments at Disney's animation division.
Pretty Woman & Marketing Triumphs (19:33) Bob reveals how he helped to transform Pretty Woman from a potentially dark R-rated film into a celebration of female empowerment, even suggesting the iconic title to replace the original "3000".
The Screen Engine Years (34:40) After leading marketing at three major studios, Bob joined Screen Engine, helping to build their research business, which started in Kevin's living room, into an industry powerhouse that expanded beyond film into other industries.
How to Score in Hollywood (42:48) Bob discusses their upcoming book, which examines how movies get greenlit, applying the principle that "every movie if made and marketed for the right price should make money.”
Understanding Audience Response (47:42) Levy notes that audiences aren't "wrong" when they dislike something; they're simply reacting honestly. Bob learned that viewers fundamentally seek characters with whom they can identify.
The Attention Economy (48:54) Rather than thinking in terms of being in "the movie business," Levin suggests viewing entertainment as part of "the attention economy" where respecting the audience and telling great stories remains paramount.
If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review and share. We look forward to bringing you more behind-the-scenes revelations next time on Don't Kill the Messenger.
Host: Kevin Goetz Guest: Bob Levin Producer: Kari Campano Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)
In this episode of Don't Kill the Messenger, host Kevin Goetz welcomes film industry analyst Stephen Follows for a discussion about film profitability and its connection to data. Stephen's digital book Greenlight Signals analyzes over 10,000 films and 4 million audience responses using secondary data (existing reviews, ratings, and comments from across the internet) to discover what makes a film successful. Together, Kevin and Stephen explore the same mission from different angles: ensuring filmmakers can make money while making the movies they're passionate about.
From Film School to Data Research (2:32) Stephen shares his path from producing micro-budget features to becoming an entertainment data analyst, driven by his love of cinema and his passion for solving problems through logic and research.
The Numbers Don’t Lie (9:59) Stephen recounts the eye-opening experience of helping a producer friend with a business plan, only to discover that every similar film had lost money.
Why Experience Doesn't Equal Success (12:47) Stephen reveals his surprising research finding: there's little to no correlation between a producer's experience and their film's profitability, showing how passion can interfere with business sense.
Two Books, One Goal (22:01) Kevin and Stephen discuss their approaches to data: Kevin's How to Score in Hollywood focuses on pre-greenlight capability testing using audience data, while Stephen's Greenlight Signals uses secondary data to identify patterns across genres. Both emphasize that data guides decisions rather than dictating them.
Horror Films: Control and Atmosphere (33:50) Stephen and Kevin discuss what makes horror movies work, from declaring your genre early to shot-length and how controlling what audiences see and when they see it is essential to creating fear.
Every Movie Should Make Money (45:50) Kevin and Stephen discuss Kevin's theory that every film, if made and marketed for the right price, should be profitable.
Arnold Rifkin (Legendary Agent & Producer) on Hollywood Deal-Making and His Life-Changing Relationship with Bruce Willis
In this episode of Don't Kill the Messenger, host Kevin Goetz sits down with Arnold Rifkin, the legendary talent agent who pioneered the concept of a total talent agency and helped build one of Hollywood's most recognizable action stars. From founding Triad Artists to leading William Morris's film division and producing blockbuster films alongside Bruce Willis, Rifkin has built careers, brokered deals, and produced films over the course of four decades. He shares candid stories about deal-making, friendship, and the business of entertainment.
Building an Agency Empire (03:21)
Rifkin discusses his sales DNA, inherited from his father, and founding an agency with Nicole David for just $1,500. He also shares the story of discovering Bruce Willis and building Triad Artists into a powerhouse before being acquired by William Morris.
Bruce Willis Partnership and Discovery (11:52)
Arnold shares Bruce's Moonlighting casting story, including his first impression, their shared speech impediment, and how Bruce's swagger and humor made him a star, despite not being a typical leading man.
The Die Hard Deal and Negotiation Mastery (19:26)
Arnold reveals the high-stakes negotiation technique he used that secured Bruce Willis $5 million for Die Hard. He also shares the Look Who's Talking voiceover deal and the Seagram's wine cooler campaign, which shed light on his deal-making prowess.
From Agent to Producer (26:57)
Rifkin explains his decision to leave agenting after 35 years, partnering with Bruce Willis to form Cheyenne Entertainment, and his spiritual transformation through Native American practices that guided this major career shift.
Bruce's Health and Honoring His Legacy (34:22)
Arnold speaks movingly about maintaining his friendship with Bruce during his health challenges, their continued Friday lunches, and plans to honor Bruce's legacy through a documentary with his new company, Incite.
Scott Ross (Visual Effects Pioneer, Producer, and Entrepreneur) on Creating Movie Magic and the Future of Hollywood Effects
In this episode of Don't Kill the Messenger, host Kevin Goetz interviews Scott Ross, a pioneering figure in the visual effects industry. As the former general manager of Industrial Light and Magic (ILM), Senior VP of LucasArts Entertainment, and co-founder of Digital Domain with James Cameron and Stan Winston, Scott Ross shares insights into the evolution of visual effects, from practical models to the digital revolution. His impressive portfolio includes iconic films like Star Wars, Terminator 2, Titanic, Apollo 13, and What Dreams May Come, and in this conversation, Ross reflects on working with some of Hollywood's greatest directors and creative minds.
Early Career and Entry into Visual Effects (01:59) Ross talks about his unexpected journey from studying film at Hofstra University to running ILM.
The Evolution of Visual Effects (04:26) Ross offers a historical perspective on the development of visual effects, from early innovations like The Great Train Robbery and Trip to the Moon, through the stop-motion animation of King Kong, to the groundbreaking digital effects of the 1980s.
Working at Industrial Light and Magic (09:19) Ross recounts his experience running ILM, explaining how he rose through the ranks despite having limited direct experience with the optical and chemical processes used before the digital era.
Seminal Projects: Who Framed Roger Rabbit (15:04) Ross shares insights on his groundbreaking work on Who Framed Roger Rabbit.
Collaborating with George Lucas and James Cameron (17:57) Ross offers candid reflections on working with George Lucas and his partnership with James Cameron in founding Digital Domain.
Visual Effects Economics and Challenges (25:54) Ross explains why visual effects are so expensive, mainly due to the enormous personnel requirements.
Mike Marcus (Manager, Producer, & Former Studio Head) on Building Hollywood Networks and Creating Hit Films
In this episode of Don't Kill the Messenger, host Kevin Goetz interviews Mike Marcus, whose impressive 57-year career spans from agency mailroom to MGM Pictures president to management company founder. In his early career as an agent, Marcus built an impressive client roster including Robin Williams, John Landis, and Sidney Pollack before transitioning into a top studio executive role and eventually launching the management division at Echo Lake Entertainment. Marcus was instrumental in bringing iconic films like The Fisher King, Trading Places, An American Werewolf in London, Get Shorty, and Stargate to the screen.
The Agency Mailroom: Hollywood's Ultimate Training Ground (01:37) Marcus explains why starting in an agency mailroom provides unparalleled industry education through networking and on-the-job training.
Building a Client Roster and Packaging Films (07:07) Marcus discusses how he excelled at assembling creative teams for projects like Fisher King with Robin Williams and Terry Gilliam.
The CAA Years and Client Relationships (10:48) After launching Cunningham Levy Marcus, he moved to CAA where he represented major talents, building the relationships that defined his career.
Transition to Studio Executive at MGM (14:21) Marcus details his surprising move from agent to MGM Pictures president in 1993, where his packaging skills lent themselves to studio leadership..
The Value of Research and Testing (22:50) Looking back on projects like Stargate, Marcus reflects on his evolution from a "gut instinct" filmmaker to appreciating audience research.
The Streaming Revolution and Theater Experience (27:44) Marcus shares his perspective on streaming's impact on theatrical moviegoing, believing theaters will always exist while acknowledging how streaming has changed the viewing landscape.
Tony Sella (Marketing Executive and Producer) on Creating Unforgettable Movie Campaigns
In this episode of Don't Kill the Messenger, host Kevin Goetz interviews Tony Sella, the legendary marketing executive behind some of Hollywood's most iconic movie campaigns. During his decades at 20th Century Fox, Sella was the creative force behind unforgettable posters, trailers, taglines, and promotions for films including Avatar, X-Men, Independence Day, Bohemian Rhapsody, and nearly 1,000 others. He shares insights into his creative process, memorable marketing moments, and the philosophy that guided his extraordinary career.
Research as the Foundation for Creative Solutions (01:55) Sella emphasizes that research is only as valuable as the questions asked, highlighting how audience feedback helped solve marketing challenges for films like The Happening and Life of Pi. He and Goetz discuss their long collaboration using qualitative research to refine marketing approaches for hundreds of successful campaigns.
Finding the "Essential Idea" in Marketing (03:56) Sella explains his unique ability to identify a film's core marketing hook, as demonstrated with the Devil Wears Prada campaign featuring the iconic Prada shoe as a trident.
Balancing Trailer Impact with Movie Quality (11:35) Sella reveals a crucial marketing principle about the relationship between trailers and the films they promote, using examples from both Avatar and The Simpsons Movie. For good movies, the trailer must be exceptional, while for truly great films, the trailer must match the emotional impact of the film itself.
Groundbreaking Campaigns: Independence Day (15:49) Describing the legendary Super Bowl spot featuring the White House explosion, Sella explains how they created a cultural phenomenon with the tagline "Enjoy the Super Bowl. It may be your last."
From Disney to Fox: Career Evolution (21:12) Sella recalls getting his "PhD" at Disney, working on hits like Good Morning Vietnam before moving to Fox, where he helped transform films like through innovative marketing approaches and identifying powerful campaign hooks.
Shane Black (Writer, Director) on Redefining Action Movies and Embracing Authenticity
In this episode of Don't Kill the Messenger, host Kevin Goetz interviews Shane Black, one of Hollywood's highest-paid screenwriters, who redefined action films with witty dialogue, dark humor, and unforgettable characters. From Lethal Weapon to The Nice Guys, Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, and Iron Man 3, Shane discusses his journey from a self-described "oddball" to a filmmaking powerhouse.
Pittsburgh Roots and Early Influences (02:55)
Born in Pittsburgh, Black shares how his father's printing business and bookshelf of detective novels sparked his love for "tough guy literature" that would later influence his writing style.
Overcoming Personal Struggles (08:00)
Black candidly discusses his battles with OCD and alcoholism. He reveals how he transformed these challenges into creative strengths and encourages others to "just lean into being weird."
The Psychology Behind His Characters (12:04)
Black explains how his characters often represent different aspects of his own psychology. He emphasizes that truly compelling writing comes from creating characters with authentic emotional DNA that resonates with the writer's own experiences.
The Creation of Lethal Weapon (15:32)
Black describes Lethal Weapon as "an urban western" with Mel Gibson's character representing "a Frankenstein kept in a cage" - a Vietnam veteran reviled by society but needed when violence intrudes on everyday life.
Working with Hollywood Icons (27:13)
Black shares insights about working with legends like Richard Donner, Tony Scott, Joel Silver, and Robert Downey Jr.
From Writer to Director (40:06)
Black explains his transition to directing to have more creative control over his work. Black adds that directing allows him to move beyond returning to the blank page and into a more collaborative aspect of filmmaking.
Mike Medavoy (Legendary Agent, Producer, & Studio Executive) on an Extraordinary Hollywood Journey
In this episode of Don't Kill the Messenger, host Kevin Goetz welcomes an industry titan-- film producer and studio executive Mike Medavoy. With a career spanning over five decades, Medavoy has been closely involved with over 300 feature films, with seven winning Best Picture Oscars. From agent to studio chief to producer, his remarkable journey from Shanghai to Hollywood has shaped some of cinema's most important films, including Rocky, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Apocalypse Now, Platoon, and Silence of the Lambs. With characteristic humility and wisdom, Medavoy shares fascinating stories from his illustrious career.
Early Life and Global Upbringing (03:12)
Born in Shanghai in 1941 to Russian-Ukrainian Jewish parents, Medavoy moved to Chile in 1947 before settling in California, speaking Shanghai-nese, Russian, Spanish, and English.
Breaking into Hollywood (07:40)
After UCLA and the US Army Reserve, Medavoy started in Universal's mailroom in 1964, making industry friendships that became the foundation of his career.
From Agent to Studio Executive (11:15)
Medavoy recounts transitioning from talent agent to Senior VP of Production at United Artists, where his first major film was One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.
United Artists and an Unprecedented Oscar Run (16:26)
At UA, Medavoy helped shepherd three consecutive Best Picture winners: One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Rocky, and Annie Hall.
Formation of Orion Pictures (19:43)
Medavoy discusses co-founding Orion Pictures, which produced classics like Amadeus, Platoon, and The Silence of the Lambs.
Stories Behind the Classics (24:26)
Chris Landon (Writer, Director, Producer) on Growing Up in Hollywood & Creating "Feel-Good Horror"
In this episode of Don't Kill the Messenger, host Kevin Goetz sits down with Chris Landon, the acclaimed writer, director, and producer known for films like Happy Death Day, Freaky, Disturbia, and most recently, Heart Eyes. Son of television legend Michael Landon, Chris has carved his own path in Hollywood, specializing in horror comedy or what he calls "feel-good horror." He candidly shares personal stories about his Hollywood upbringing, coming out, surviving kidney cancer, and the creative approaches that have defined his successful career.
Growing Up as Michael Landon's Son (05:04)
Landon discusses his childhood as the son of a famous father, his parents' divorce, and how his mother's sudden religious conversion impacted his youth.
Facing Personal Challenges (10:56)
Chris opens up about his father's untimely death from pancreatic cancer when Chris was just 16, and his own journey as a cancer survivor, sharing an important message about health vigilance.
Early Film Influences and Career Beginnings (12:07)
Landon talks about his early love for horror films, how watching his father's fulfillment at work influenced him, and his introduction to both horror and emotional films like Terms of Endearment.
From Writer to Director's Jail (24:41)
Chris details his path from writing Disturbia to joining the Paranormal Activity franchise after boldly speaking up in a meeting, his experience with residuals, and eventually facing "director's jail" after Scouts Guide to the Zombie Apocalypse.
Breaking through with Happy Death Day (38:38)
Landon shares the story of how he resurrected a shelved script called that became , a $5 million film that grossed around $150 million and revitalized his career.
David Permut (Oscar® & Emmy® Nominated Producer) on Movie Maps, Making Movies That Matter, and Discovering New Talent
In this episode of Don't Kill the Messenger, host Kevin Goetz sits down with acclaimed producer David Permut, the visionary behind films like Face/Off, Hacksaw Ridge (Academy Award nominee for Best Picture), Dragnet, and most recently, Rustin. His films have garnered multiple Academy Award nominations, and he is known for his exceptional ability to discover new talent and bring challenging stories to the screen. From selling star maps as a teenager to executive producing with Barack and Michelle Obama, Permut shares candid stories about his remarkable journey in Hollywood.
Early Beginnings and Star Maps (02:15)
Permut discusses his start as the publisher of Beverly Hills Map Company, selling maps to celebrity homes while meeting stars like Fred Astaire, Elvis Presley, and Katherine Hepburn.
Learning from Bill Sargent (09:17)
The producer shares how meeting promoter Bill Sargent led to his first major projects, including Give 'em Hell, Harry! starring James Whitmore.
Richard Pryor Live in Concert (16:30)
Permut reveals the story behind producing Richard Pryor's groundbreaking concert film, which grossed $32.5 million.
Face/Off: From Shelf to Screen (24:33)
Details the fascinating journey of acquiring Face/Off from Warner Brothers, investing his own money for the option, and bringing John Woo on board to direct what would become a major hit.
The Making of Hacksaw Ridge (30:04)
Permut talks about the 17-year journey to bring Desmond Doss's story to screen, culminating in six Oscar nominations and working with Mel Gibson.
and Working with the Obamas (36:05)
Universal Rules Across All Genres (47:49) Stephen and Kevin identify critical commonalities of successful films: emotional authenticity, clear character wants, visible stakes, avoiding confusion, respecting established rules, and maintaining consistent tone throughout.
This episode offers invaluable insights for anyone interested in the intersection of art and commerce in Hollywood.
If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review and share. We look forward to bringing you more behind-the-scenes revelations next time on Don't Kill the Messenger.
Host: Kevin Goetz Guest: Stephen Follows Producer: Kari Campano Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)
Rifkin reflects on choosing abundance over scarcity, teaching at UCLA for 15 years, raising five children, and how true success isn't about material possessions but about the impact you make on others.
Throughout the conversation, Rifkin demonstrates the relationship-building, risk-taking, and loyalty that defined his extraordinary career. From an immigrant’s son to Hollywood power broker, his journey offers insights into deal-making, friendship, and the human side of the entertainment industry.
Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Arnold Rifkin
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
The Impact of AI on Visual Effects (30:36) Ross offers a balanced view of artificial intelligence as both "an incredibly wonderful technology" and a potentially frightening force that could eliminate jobs.
Reflections on Iconic Films (39:09) In a rapid-fire segment, Ross shares memories of working on films like Apollo 13, Titanic, Terminator 2, and What Dreams May Come.
Throughout the conversation, Ross shares his perspective as a business leader who navigated the transition from creating practical to digital effects, offering both historical context and insights about the future of filmmaking as the technology continues to evolve.
We look forward to bringing you more revelations from behind the scenes next time on Don't Kill the Messenger! Please leave us a review or connect on social media.
Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Scott Ross
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Building Echo Lake Entertainment (31:19) Now approaching 20 years at Echo Lake, Marcus discusses what makes a great representative and reveals the fulfillment that came with building the company.
Industry Outlook and Future Projects (33:11) Marcus shares his optimism about independent film's potential resurgence, concerns about decreasing compensation for talent, and shares his current projects.
Throughout the conversation, Marcus demonstrates how his skill for recognizing creative talent and building relationships helped create classic films through the years. His journey from agency mailroom to industry leader offers essential insights for anyone interested in the inner workings of Hollywood.
If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review or connect on social media. We look forward to bringing you more revelations from behind the scenes next time on Don't Kill the Messenger!
Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Mike Marcus
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
The Three Pillars of Creative Success (43:55) Reflecting on campaigns for Walk the Line and Bohemian Rhapsody, Sella shares his philosophy that the most important elements in creative work are passion, talent, and taste—innate qualities that cannot be acquired.
During this lively discussion, Sella showcases the creative intuition that made him a marketing legend while acknowledging the collaborative nature of his success. His story offers helpful insights for anyone interested in film marketing, promotion, or the art of connecting with audiences.
If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review or connect on social media. We look forward to bringing you more revelations from behind the scenes next time on Don't Kill the Messenger!
Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Tony Sella
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Black discusses working with Mark Wahlberg, and adapting Donald Westlake's Parker series for Amazon, calling Westlake "the king" among mystery writers and explaining his lifelong admiration for these stories he first read at age 12.
Throughout the conversation, Black offers a masterclass on screenwriting in Hollywood. Black and Kevin Goetz discover numerous personal connections, creating an unusually intimate portrait of a filmmaker who transformed Hollywood's action genre. His journey from a bookish child to acclaimed filmmaker serves as proof that leaning into one's unique perspective can lead to extraordinary creative achievements.
If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review or connect on social media. We look forward to bringing you more revelations from behind the scenes next time on Don't Kill the Messenger!
Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Shane Black
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, Nick Nunez, and Kari Campano
Fascinating behind-the-scenes stories about iconic films including Platoon, Terminator, and Apocalypse Now.
Advice for the Next Generation (38:56) For emerging filmmakers, Medavoy recommends "The Story of Film" as essential viewing.
Throughout this conversation, Medavoy reveals himself as not just an industry treasure but a thoughtful observer of both cinema and life. His journey from immigrant roots to Hollywood exemplifies the dream many pursue but few achieve. With remarkable candor, he discusses both triumphs and regrets, offering listeners a rare glimpse into the mind of someone who has truly shaped modern cinema while remaining, as Kevin notes, "a very charming and decent human being."
If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review or connect on social media. We look forward to bringing you more revelations from behind the scenes next time on Don't Kill the Messenger!
Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Mike Medavoy
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, Nick Nunez, and Kari Campano
Landon explains key insights gained from audience screenings, including respecting the audience's intelligence and never betraying the rules established in a film.
Upcoming Film: Drop (46:48)
Landon previews his new edge-of-your-seat thriller Drop (releasing April 11), calling it his "grown-up movie" and a modern-day Hitchcock thriller starring Meagan Fahy.
Throughout the conversation, Chris Landon demonstrates his resilience, creative vision, and commitment to authentic storytelling. From navigating Hollywood as the son of a legend to creating his own distinct voice in the horror genre, his journey offers insights into filmmaking, audience engagement, and personal growth.
If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review or connect on social media.
Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Chris Landon
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, Nick Nunez, and Kari Campano
Permut discusses collaborating with Barack and Michelle Obama's Higher Ground Productions on Rustin and the importance of telling meaningful stories.
Current Projects and Future Vision (41:27)
The producer shares his excitement about discovering new talent and his upcoming projects, including Twinless with James Sweeney and Being Heumann, the story of disability rights activist Judy Heumann.
Throughout this engaging conversation, David Permut embodies his own philosophy: "Die with your memories, not your dreams." From selling star maps to producing Oscar-nominated films, his journey demonstrates the power of passion and persistence in Hollywood. Whether creating blockbusters or meaningful dramas, Permut's enthusiasm for discovering new talent and telling important stories remains as strong as ever.
If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review or connect on social media. We look forward to bringing you more revelations from behind the scenes next time on Don't Kill the Messenger!
Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: David Permut
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
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