Cider Chat – Détails, épisodes et analyse

How to clarify, stabilize, and finish cider the right way

Once the apple juice has started fermented and it is now slowing down, it is time to rack over your cider for secondary fermentation.

Secondary fermentation is where your cider moves from "young" to "refined." This stage improves clarity, stability, and overall quality before bottling or serving.

00:00 – Introduction and Welcome
00:27 – Meet the Host: Ria Windcaller
00:45 – The Magic of Clothes Pins
01:14 – Episode Overview: Secondary Fermentation
01:55 – Replay Announcement: Season 8, Episode 386
02:14 – Cider Making in the Northern Hemisphere
02:34 – Cider Making Resources and Equipment
06:09 – Totally Cider Tours
13:29 – Upcoming New York Cider Festival
15:31 – Featured Presentation: Clearing Cloudy Cider
24:01 – Observing Fermentation Activity
24:21 – Timing and Patience in Cider Making
24:54 – Understanding Racking Over
25:32 – Dealing with Stuck Fermentation
26:59 – Secondary Fermentation Indicators
27:47 – Preparing for Racking Over
29:13 – Racking Over Process
30:49 – Using Sulfites and Equipment
35:32 – Handling Head Space and Lees
38:38 – Final Tips and Bottling
42:43 – Supporters and Closing Remarks

Secondary fermentation helps your cider:

Improve the overall quality and characteristics of the final product during secondary fermentation by;

Clarify: After the vigorous primary fermentation phase, yeast, pulp, and particulate matter settle out. Giving the cider time in secondary creates that clean, bright look in the glass.

Stabilize: Letting the cider relax in a less active fermentation state helps smooth out rough edges and reduces the risk of funky off-character flavors.

Reduce Bottle Sediment: Most of the lees settle in the secondary fermenter — not in your final bottles — giving you a cleaner, professional-looking cider.

Avoid Off-Flavors: Yeast that sits too long on the lees can break down (autolyze) and create harsh, unpleasant aromas. Racking to secondary moves the cider off that yeast layer and protects the finished profile..

Secondary fermentation is a crucial step for refining cider, enhancing its clarity, taste, and stability before it is consumed or sold.

• 381 DIY Cider Making for Beginners
• 382 Beginner Tips for Squeaky Clean Cider Equipment
• 384 Beginner Cider Making Tips forPrimary Fermentation 

Primary fermentation must be substantially complete. Signs include:

– Airlock activity slows way down
– Gravity readings stabilize over several days
– Visible bubbling is minimal
– A firm lees bed is forming at the bottom
– Taste test confirms sugar is mostly gone (unless aiming for sweet

Find a complete list with links to purchase at the Cider Making Equipment page at ciderchat.com

• Extra Apple Juice to for topping off
• Secondary Fermenter – glass carboy of equal size
• Airlock and Bung
• Racking Cane or Auto-Siphon
• Sanitizer
• Hydrometer or Refractometer
• Tubing & a clothes pin ( a Ria tip to have on hand for clamping tubing as you go so it can be managed to insure that the tube doesn't slip down into the lees and stir them up)
• Bottle Brush and Cleaning Equipment

• Completion of Active Primary Fermentation: Watch and notice when the vigorous phase of primary fermentation is complete, which is typically indicated by a significant decrease in airlock activity or specific gravity readings that are close to the target final gravity.
• Gravity Readings: Use a hydrometer or refractometer to take consecutive gravity readings over a few days. When readings are consistent, it suggests that fermentation has slowed down enough for secondary transfer.
• Visual Clues: Look for a drop in the level of visible activity, such as the reduction of bubbles and the beginning of sediment formation at the bottom of the primary fermenter.
• Taste Test: Conduct a taste test for residual sweetness. If the cider is too sweet, it may need more time in primary fermentation unless the desired style of cider is sweet rather than dry.
• Timeframe Guidance: Generally, primary fermentation can take anywhere from a few days to two weeks, depending on factors like temperature, yeast strain, and original sugar content.
• Avoiding Off-Flavors: Transfer before the cider has sat too long on the lees at the bottom of the carboy to prevent off-flavors that can result from yeast autolysis.
• Specific Style Goals: Factor in the specific goals for the cider's style, as some styles may benefit from a longer or shorter primary fermentation before secondary.
• Equipment Availability: Ensure that the secondary fermentation vessel is prepared and sanitized before deciding on the transfer to avoid any delays once the cider is ready.

• Stalled Fermentation – Adjust fermentation temperature to optimal range.
• Excessive Oxidation – Minimize headspace and avoid splashing when transferring.
• Contamination – Practice stringent sanitation and possibly discard contaminated batch.
• Sulfite Burn – Allow time for dissipation or use activated carbon treatment.
• Insufficient Carbonation – Verify yeast viability and sugar availability; maintain proper bottle conditioning temperature.
• Sediment in Bottles – Allow full clearing in secondary, use fining agents, and bottle carefully.
• Unexpected Flavor Changes – Allow time for maturation or blend with another batch.
• Pressure Build-up in Containers – Use an airlock or periodically vent the container.
• Cider Becomes Too Dry – Monitor gravity to stop fermentation at desired sweetness or back-sweeten with non-fermentable sweeteners.

• Totally Cider Tours
• New York Cider Fest – City Winery NYC November 15th

Perry making has deep roots in Gloucestershire, stretching back to the 17th century when French wine imports were cut off during the Napoleonic Wars. Local farmers turned to their own fruit, and the rich soils around Hartpury proved ideal for growing Perry pears.

This episode features audio snapshots from the 2025 Totally Cider Tour stop at the National Perry Pear Centre. Our guide, Phil Kester, volunteers with 99PINES , where he helps preserve the region's rare Perry pear varieties. Phil's passion for Perry and deep local knowledge made this visit one of the tour's highlights.

• Charles Martell recognized that Perry orchards across Gloucestershire were disappearing and began documenting rare varieties.
• His work led to the first National Perry Collection at the Malvern Three Counties Showground, planted with Tom Oliver and others.
• Jim Chapman later expanded the effort by gifting land at Hartpury. This site is The National Perry Pear Centre and is home to over 100 Perry pear varieties from Gloucestershire and beyond.
• These orchards safeguard living history, connecting generations through the craft of Perry making.

The name 99PINES comes from the line of pines atop nearby May Hill, often called the heart of English Perry country.

Phil and the volunteers at 99PINES are working to:

• Create a local hub to promote Perry culture in pubs and communities.
• Build a tasting space featuring 80–100 Perry varieties for education and enjoyment.
• Keep the project sustainable by reinvesting proceeds into orchard care and heritage initiatives.

Perry is both art and patience.

• The fruit can rot within days, demanding precise timing at harvest.
• Perry ferments differently from cider and is more sensitive to bacteria.
• Varieties like Blakeney Red and Hartpury Green reveal a range of tannins and textures unique to Perry.
• Phil experiments with bottle conditioning and Pet Nat methods, showing how diverse and expressive Perry can be.

• National Perry Pear Centre
  • Website: https://www.nationalperrypearcentre.org.uk/
• 99PINES
  • Website: https://www.nationalperrypearcentre.org.uk/99pines-perry/

• April 27-May3rd 2026 Blossom Time Totally Cider Tour to the United Kingdom
• Edulis Restaurant – Toronto Cider House Luncheons
• NY Cider Fest November 15, 2026

Saint Lawrence Nursery in Potsdam, NY, has been helping cold-climate growers find success since the 1920s. Originally founded by Fred Ashworth and later expanded by Bill MacKentley, the nursery is now stewarded by Connor and Allyssa Hardiman, the third generation in a nonfamilial succession.

Cold-Hardy Genetics

• Over 250 apple varieties
• Trialed at temperatures as low as -34°F
• Trees that thrive from Alaska to Michigan

Only Standard Rootstock

• Seedling Antonovka (apples) and Baccata (crabs) for resilience and longevity
• Trees that can live 100+ years

More Than Apples

• Black walnuts, butternuts, hazelnuts, and berry bushes
• Custom grafting for heirloom preservation
• Regionally adapted selections from partnerships and testing plots

The nursery was handed down without a sale. It was gifted by Bill to Connor in a rare act of agricultural generosity. The plan is to do the same one day. "Love is what makes the world go 'round," Bill often says, and it's embedded in every tree tag and planting guide.

Most customers are small-scale planters or long-time loyalists. Whether you want just one tree to honor a grandparent or 100 cider apples for a startup orchard, Connor and Allyssa are here to help—with personal attention, a rich planting guide, and an option to let them choose the right tree for you.

• Website: https://www.slngrow.com/

• Listen to Bill MacKentley's speach at New York Apple Camp 2023 391: Test Winters & Climate w/Saint Lawrence Nurseries (NY) Founder
• Totally Cider Tours
• Patrick McCauley Episode Feature – 302 Washtenaw County Cider Mille 1841- Today
• Topsoil Magazine

This 22 acre farm with 8 acres of orchards on a hillside outside of Hardwick, Vermont in the town of Walden was founded by Todd Parlo and Lori Augustyniak. It is a sustainably managed and certified organic fruit orchard and nursery. In this chat, we speak with both founders as they share the history and current educational offerings at WHNO.

Todd Parlo and Lori Augustyniak (w/ frozen jug of apple juice) at WHNO

We also discuss how WHNO was awarded a SARE (Sustainable Agricultural Research and Educational Project) grant to study: The evaluations of apple cultivars for hard cider production in the Northeast. The goal of the project as Todd Parlo states it, is "To increase the pool of possibilities for a cider maker. And to get numbers on the constituents of juices of a variety of apple cultivars."

• 313 apple varieties from WHNO were tested during this project.

Todd in the Walden orchard

The study was completed and as of 2023 the results of the study can be reviewed via this link online.

Walk about the orchard with both Todd and Lori at WHNO and hear about just a few of the 600 apples varieties grown here.

• Website: https://waldenheightsnursery.com/about/

Mentions in this Chat

• Vermont flooding help - Go Fund Me for Henry's Hardware & Den in Cabot
• Fermentis: AC-4. SafCider™ AC-4 stands for Apple Crisp and is one of 3 SafCider™ Yeasts for your cider!
• Visit Idaho and taste the ciders! More info at https://nwcider.com/map
  • Athol Orchards visit this orchard in the Panhandle of Idaho

He both forages apples and has a small orchard planted that he planted four years ago on his farm based in Craftsbury, Vermont. The ciders are both wild ferments and occasionally have cultured yeasts too.

He sells locally at Vermont farmers markets and doesn't have any immediate plans to increase his production which is currently at 900 gallons per year.

Cedar Hannan

Cedar was originally looking at brewing as a retirement goal, but (as he notes in this episode) there are already a fantastic number of breweries in the surrounding area. In addition, the carbon footprint of beer is a bit larger than that of making cider at a local scale. Thankfully for us all, Cedar went with his hunch and is making Wildbranch Cider his full time gig, having quit his IT job.

Each of the following is what Cedar looks for when foraging apples or pears for Wildbranch.

• Flavor  - aroma
• Tannin
• Acidity
• Sugar content

• The Spiney - Flagship cider 6.8%
  • Try with cheddar cheese and grilled pork chop
• Golden Russet 8.3%
  • Intense fruitiness, Little bit of cooked apple
• Perry
  • Made with culinary pears - Barlett's and Big Earl (a local variety)

Perry

Contact for Wildbranch Cider

• Website: https://www.wildbranchcider.com/

Mentions in this Chat

• Fermentis: AC-4. SafCider™ AC-4 stands for Apple Crisp and is one of 3 SafCider™ Yeasts for your cider!
• Visit Idaho and taste the ciders! More info at https://nwcider.com/map
  • The Idaho University Extension Program - has a Fermentation Club - Find out about the July 29, 2023 Fermentation class

July 28th - 30th at the Ashokan Center in the Hudson River Valley (on the west side of river) is the first ever NY Apple Camp!

Elizabeth Ryan of Stone Ridge Orchard who is producing this event catches us up on the scheduled events and talks. 

The weekend begins with an optional tour on Friday focusing on the life of Andrew Jackson Downing. The tour goes to the original site of the Downing Nursery and Downing Park. Then a 2 hour lunch with cider  and off to Esopus  - where the Esopus Spitzenberg originated from.

• Find the Schedule of events and presentations at  https://www.hvcenterforfoodartsandag.org/apple-camp-schedule.html#/
• Tickets at: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/ny-apple-camp-2023-tickets-657779936497

The Friday tour is optional and there is a request for donations of $30.

• Fermentis: AB-1 (Apple Balance) yeast is one of 3 SafCider Yeasts for your cider!
• Visit Idaho and taste the ciders! More info at https://nwcider.com/map

Ben is the Orchard Manager at Eden Specialty Cider based in northern Vermont and shares his insight on cold climate apple varieties and orchard tips. This chat took place at Eden's orchards based in what is known as the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont in the town of West Charleston. 

Ben Applegate

There are 50 Apple varieties at the Eden orchard. Here is a list of just some of the apples discussed in this episode: 

• Newton Pippin
• Liberty
• Stembridge Cluster
• Rubinette
• Northern Spy
• Trembletts Bitter

Ben discusses which varieties work well in a cold climate, while recommending that as the temperatures continue to rise both in Vermont and globally, he advises to plant trial apples for the changes ahead.

• Why you should do a Soil test before planting and what to do with that knowledge
• Why pruning too early can offset young trees
• Which apple tree damaging insects to worry about

• We learn about the challenges faced by the young apple trees, such as sun scald and fluctuating temperatures
• Scythe and Biological Mowing
• How climate change is affecting traditional production of Ice Cider, which is made by freezing apple juice on the coldest days of the year to freeze the water and then ferment the pure apple juice into what is known as Ice Cider.
• How acidity of the soil directly affects the acidity of the apples
• Selection of apple varieties and rootstock is crucial
• Dwarf tree management
• Incorporating composted teas for apple trees 
• The impact of author Micheal Phillips' work

Contact for Ben Applegate

Website: http://edenciders.com

email: mailto:ben@edenciders.com

Mentions in this Chat

• New York Apple Camp July 28th-30th, 2023 Registration is open!

The wild "ambient" yeast found on apples, in the air, on cider presses can all contribute to a spontaneous fermentation within the cider must, which is the juice that has been freshly pressed from a fruit such as apples or grapes and is fermenting. In this episode we hear from Hugues Guichard, who works at the Institut Français des Productions Cidricoles a research institute focusing on cider based in Normandy, France.

Hugues presented this lecture at CiderCon 2023, which is hosted by the American Cider Association.

Hugues Guichard at CiderCon 2023

Allowing a cider to go through a full spontaneous fermentation successfully is a growing trend within the industry as consumer continue to seek "natural" ciders. Hugues provides a complete overview of the French cider industry and the science behind spontaneous ferments.

• Subscribe to the Cider Chat YouTube Channel to be notified when the  audio of this lecture synced with the power point slide show goes live to the public.
• Become a Patreon and view video now

• Part I: French Cider Industry and IFPC
• Part II: French Cider ProcessingCider Apples and Harvest

  • Possible contamination by spoiling microorganisms

• Clarification 
• Fermentation 
• Maturation
• Bottling
• Conclusion

• Hanseniaspora is a genus of yeasts, when there is no sulphites in the must

• Mechnikowia pulcherrima (Mp)

  • On apple and in must (often high population)

  • no development in anaerobioses

• Hanseniaspora valbyensys (Hv) - apiculate yeast

  • On apple and in must, growth in must

  • 1 to 2 weeks then decreases

  • Sensibility to SO2

• Saccharomyces uvarum (Su): fermentative yeast

Bacterias and yeasts in ciders that can create off flavors

• Acetic acid bacteria (Acetobacter). Often described at Volatile Acidity (VA) which lends a vinegary taste to the cider

• Zymomonas mobilis (bacteria). off flavors  such as rotten banana, vegetal aromas. There may be a haze formation, high pressure in bottles, and excessive foaming

• Secundilactobacillus collinoïdes - lactic acid spoilage

• Brettanomyces anomala - Volatile phenol

Begin with cidermaking best practices  

As expected best practices for all fermentation including a spontaneous fermentation require

• Clean Fruit
• Hygiene in the cidery
• Temperature control

Contact for Hugues Guichard

• email: mailto:hugues.guichard@ifpc.eu

Mentions in this Chat

• New York Apple Camp July 28th-30th, 2023
• Nordic International Cider Competition - Deadline for sending entries August 7th,
  • The NICA competition takes place on September 6-9, in Riga, Latvia

Cornell University Associate Professor of Horticulture Gregory Peck Ph.D and Angry Orchard Head Cidermaker Joe Gaynor provide an in depth study of mechanical tools for orchards of all sizes.

The presentation took place at CiderCon2023.

No need to be an orchardist to enjoy this topic on mechanical harvesting of apples. Some of these same tools presented are also used in vineyards for harvesting grapes. Particularly interesting for cider fans and makers alike, is the debunking the myth that apples that fall on the ground can't be used to make cider. Dr Peck provides a great overview on this topic.

• Comparison of Cider Economies of New York, US and UK
• Bush Cider Orchards - wide row spacing for mechanical harvesting
• Cumulative Net Present Value (NPV) using Outsourced Machine Harvesting (~$300/acre)
• Is it Profitable to Grow Cider Apples in NY?
• The cost of hand picking - Labor in America
• Cumulative NPV at Various Returns using Hand or Machine Harvesting
• Tree-row sweeping and picking up
• Harvesting off the ground
• How mechanical harvesting impacts the fruit
• Options for Small, Medium and Large scale operations
• Conclusions of this study

Contact info for Gregory Peck

• eMail: gmp32@cornell.edu
• Listen to an early Episode 198: Becoming a Pommologist with Dr. Peck

Mentions in this Chat

• Scott Farm Go Fund Me for apple lost due to 2023 Frost
• New York Apple Camp July 28th-30th, 2023

On a sloping hill on the east side of the picturesque village of Cambremer sits Domaine Marois. The lead up to the home is formidable with a long drive that leads to the barrel room and production facility for the Domaine. Behind the home is a majestic oak tree said to be over 300 years old.

Antoine Marois in the barrel room at the Domaine

It is here that Antoine and wife Marie Marois reside. Marie is a cider maker in her own right having taken the head cider maker position at Domaine Dupont.

The grand house at Domaine Marois

• Where is Domaine Marois located – here we talk about the area.
  • – what to expect when visiting
• Antoine journey to become a cidermaker after working first with wine.
  • • What Antoine bring to cider that he learned from wine.
• Why haute tige (standard size) trees are important.
• How an orchard benefits from cows in the orchard
• Types of Cider Styles at Domaine Marois.
  • Co-ferments
  • Barrels toasted with apple juice
  • wild yeast and cultured yeaast
    • What to expect in the glass
• Visiting Domaine Marois
• Future plans for Domaine Marois

300+ year old oak tree at Domaine Marois

• Website: https://www.domaine-am.com/
• Visit this Domaine Marois by appointment only

The moped in the barrel room at Domaine Marois

Mentions in this Chat

• International Cider and Perry Competition - Cider Museum | Herefordshire - see the list of winners here
• Recent episodes with UK cider maker Tom Oliver
  • Ep 361 Is SO2 Necessary for Cider Making? 
  • Ep 366 Acclaimed Cider with Minimal Intervention | Tom Oliver 
• Got a Question about yeast and cidermaking? Send in your questions to info@ciderchat.com for the upcoming episode with Fermentis