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How Should We Think About Disclosure?05 Dec 202500:36:05

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I'd like to start a conversation here and invite you to participate. Please meet us on our YouTube Community page to engage in the discussion: https://www.youtube.com/@WhatTheUFO/community

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Kevin Wright ~ Solve Advocacy Founder, SCU and NPI Advisor06 Dec 202400:46:58

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Kevin Wright is a public relations and communications expert. He focuses on edge science issues and advises the Scientific Coalition for UAP Studies’ (SCU) Board of Directors on public affairs and public relations and is a consultant to Daniel Sheehan’s New Paradigm Institute. Wright is also a weekly columnist for the Roswell Daily Record. 

Wright’s company Solve Advocacy helps clients navigate the complex and evolving landscape of public perception, media attention, and policy implications related to topics such as UAP, consciousness, and more.

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Michael Michaud ~ Diplomat, Author, SETI Protocol Creator22 Aug 202501:02:32

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Leslie Kean ~ Independent Investigative Journalist28 Mar 202501:38:36

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Leslie Kean has done more than almost anyone else to advance the contemporary UFO conversation. Her 2017 New York Times article changed the landscape overnight by introducing the world to the Navy UFO videos, Lue Elizondo, and AATIP. In 2019, she reported on pilot sightings by Ryan Graves and others in another widely read Times article. In 2023, she broke the story of David Grusch's whistleblower report in a famous piece for The Debrief. 

Leslie wrote her first UFO story in 2000 for the Boston Globe, and in 2011, she published her book "UFOs: Generals, Pilots, and Government Officials Go on the Record," which remains one of the clearest and most useful works ever written on this challenging topic. 

She also produces the series "UFOs: Investigating the Unknown," which offers an excellent, serious introduction to the subject. Both seasons are available now here: https://www.hulu.com/series/4c1070e7-5b4d-46e1-a5ee-b9eb0c7db18c 

Finally, Leslie has explored other mysterious phenomena in her book "Surviving Death: A Journalist Explores the Evidence for an Afterlife," which was adapted by Netflix for a series of the same name: https://www.netflix.com/title/80998853 

We're extremely grateful to Leslie for her sharp, clear, insightful and courageous work, and we're honored that she shared her time and wisdom with us for this conversation. 

Show note—we discuss the Wilson-Davis memo briefly, but only to establish its provenance. The TLDR on this document is that it contains the notes from an alleged conversation between physicist Eric Davis and Admiral Thomas R. Wilson. According to these notes, Wilson told Davis that in his role as Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, he uncovered a secret UFO crash retrieval and reverse engineering program while conducting an audit of Defense expenditures, and the program heads refused to give him direct access, despite his high rank. The Admiral has called this memo fiction, but as we discuss in this episode, he may have been legally required to do so if the program was or is real. You can read the memo in full here, or access the Congressional record version below: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/20074164-wilson-davis-document/ 

~ Show Links ~ 

Music by John Hubbell: https://mathoftrees.bandcamp.com/album/math-of-trees 

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Leslie's Site: https://www.lesliekean.com/ 

Leslie's UFO Show: https://www.hulu.com/series/4c1070e7-5b4d-46e1-a5ee-b9eb0c7db18c 

Leslie's UFO Book: https://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Generals-Pilots-Government-Officials/dp/0307717089/ 

Leslie's Afterlife Book: https://www.amazon.com/Surviving-Death-Journalist-Investigates-Afterlife/dp/0451497147/ 

2020 Globe Article: https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-boston-globe-leslie-kean-boston-ufo/148614188/ 

2017 Times Article: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/16/us/politics/pentagon-program-ufo-harry-reid.html 

2019 Times Article: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/26/us/politics/ufo-sightings-navy-pilots.html 

2023 Debrief Article: https://thedebrief.org/intelligence-officials-say-u-s-has-retrieved-non-human-craft/ 

Wilson-Davis Memo (Congressional Record Version):  https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/20074164-wilson-davis-document/ 

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Preston Dyches ~ Science Communicator04 Apr 202501:32:42

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Preston speaks with us entirely in a personal capacity, not representing his organization. 

Preston has built an impressive and varied career as a science communicator, including holding as a Senior Public Engagement Specialist & Story Strategist for NASA's Jet Propulsion Lab, where he helps communicate scientific discoveries from the cutting edge of astronomy. 

We discuss the solar system, the art of science narrative, and how to think clearly about UAP. We had a fun, thoughtful conversation. Hope you enjoy! 

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NASA JPL What's Up Series 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTbF6EsIsg4&list=PLTiv_XWHnOZrT_ppDGiT__fI3yjD4t7dI 

Preston's Site 
https://www.prestondyches.com/skywatching 

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Seth Borkowski ~ Host of The Spiritual Skeptic17 Oct 202501:30:53

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Seth has a masters in psychology and works in fintech. He also podcasts about aliens with a cheerfully comedic bent. You can fond his show The Spiritual Skeptic here: https://thespiritualskeptic.buzzsprout.com/

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Victor Viggiani ~ Researcher, Journalist, Podcast Host, Founder of Zland Communications18 Jul 202501:29:21

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Victor's Podcast: https://creators.spotify.com/pod/profile/zlandcommunications/episodes/Daniel-Sheehan---The-ET-Presence-and-the-Human-Family-er8ju8?utm_source=chatgpt.com 

Zland Communications: https://sites.google.com/site/zlandcommunications/zlandcommunications-overview-and-current-news?authuser=0

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Leslie and Stephen Shaw ~ Journalist and Experiencer, Authors29 Aug 202501:43:50

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Leslie and Stephen's Book: https://www.amazon.com/Who-They-Are-What-Theyre/dp/B0BKCQ363C/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0 


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Daniel Otis ~ Investigative Journalist20 Feb 202600:51:37

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Daniel Otis is an investigative journalist who covers UAP for Canadian and international news organizations. He works primarily with direct reports and documents, often retrieved by legal information requests.

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Tim Burke ~ Writer, Director, Producer21 Feb 202600:49:01

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Tim's Site: www.theageofcommunication.com

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John Priestland ~ uNHidden Founder and Chairman08 Aug 202501:01:05

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uNHIdden: https://www.unhidden.org/our-board/

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Dr. William Parsons ~ Professor of Religion, Archives of the Impossible Contributor01 Aug 202501:21:19

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Dr. Michael Bohlander ~ Chair in Global Law and SETI Policy, Durham University11 Apr 202501:25:03

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Dr. Bohlander is an international criminal lawyer. We discuss his book, Contact with Extraterrestrial Intelligence and Human Law. 

Dr. Bohlander's Staff Page: 
https://www.durham.ac.uk/staff/michael-bohlander/

Contact with ETI and Human Law: 
https://brill.com/display/title/68174

UAP and SETI Symposium: 
https://www.durham.ac.uk/departments/academic/law/news-and-events/events/2025/04/grounding-the-seti-and-uap-debate-law-evidence-and-anticipated-futures/ 

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Kharisma Montes de Oca ~ City Planner, Law Student, Legal Researcher25 Jul 202501:07:47

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Birdie Jaworski ~ Founder and Director of ABQ UFOs, Expert Remote Viewer29 Nov 202401:14:40

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Birdie is amazing. She founded ABQ UFOs, which is one of the largest volunteer organizations of UFO enthusiasts, and she's among the most accomplished civilian remote viewers. We discuss her work and experience in both areas here, and look closely at the places where UFOs and remote viewing intersect.

You can follow Birdie online at her site No Rivets: https://www.norivets.com/

Engage with ABQ UFOs at their site: https://www.abqufos.com/

And check out Birdie's course with Ubiquity University here: https://www.ubiquityuniversity.org/developing-the-human-et-relationship-through-remote-viewing-with-birdie-jaworski/

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John and Gerry Tedesco ~ UAP Field Study Engineers22 Nov 202401:34:23

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John and Gerry Tedesco are likely the world's most experienced civilian UAP trackers. They've logged hundreds of hours of data collection in their mobile lab Nightcrawler units with dozens of high-quality sensor instruments, including advanced radar equipment for which they acquired a special license.

We discuss their history as electrical engineers, their UAP observation work so far, their harrowing close encounter, and their plans for future projects.

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Jim Quirk ~ Encounter Experiencer, UFO Witness, Podcast Host24 Oct 202501:27:29

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Jim's Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/QuirkZone 


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UFOs Are Real ~ John's Priors26 May 202400:45:14

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John's turn to tell you what he thinks!

As we get more information, our views may change, but as of recording, this was our understanding of the phenomenon and situation around it.

Brand Note: We called this show Holding Space for the first 6 episodes. Now we call it WTUFO. It's better, right? We hope you enjoy. 

If you're enjoying the show and you'd like to help us keep making it, please consider supporting us at patreon.com/WTUFO

Original Air Date: January 14, 2024

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If UFOs Weren't NHI, What Else Would Have To Be True?27 May 202401:22:07

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If UFOs aren't NHI, some other weird things must be happening. Given what we know is definitely true, we imagine the potential alternate explanations for UFOs, creature encounters, and coverup allegations. To cap it off, we use our trusty Occam's razor to cut through the chaos.

If you're enjoying the show and you'd like to help us keep making it, please consider supporting us at patreon.com/WTUFO 

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What's Going On With UFOs ~ Best Guess26 Dec 202500:35:17

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A fun one for the end of 2025—this is my honest best guess about what's going on with UFOs. All the details from their origin to the time they've been here to their overarching agenda. Just pure, unfiltered, wild-eyed speculation. Hope you enjoy! 

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Robert Powell ~ SCU Executive Board Member, "UFOs" Author, Nanotech Engineer03 Jan 202501:38:35

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Robert Powell is a co-founder and Executive Board Member of the Scientific Coalition for UAP Studies. He served as Director of Research at MUFON from 2007-2017 and created their Science Review Board. Robert holds a BS in Chemistry and co-holds four patents related to nanotechnology from his years managing Research and Development of semiconductors at AMD. 

 We discuss his excellent book "UFOs: A Scientist Explains What We Know (And Don't Know)," including what UAP science must do next, what might account for some of the extraordinary behavior of UAP, and how and whether we should attempt to communicate with potential NHI.  

Get Robert's book here: https://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Scientist-Explains-What-Know/dp/1538173581 

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Dr. Jörg Matthias Determann ~ Author of Islam, Science Fiction and Extraterrestrial Life23 May 202501:27:32

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Dr. Determann is the author of Islam, Science Fiction and Extraterrestrial Life: The Culture of Astrobiology in the Muslim World and a professor of history at Virginia Commonwealth University in Qatar. He joins WTUFO to explore intersections between the UAP phenomenon and Islamic thought.  

Islam, Science Fiction and Extraterrestrial Life: The Culture of Astrobiology in the Muslim World:  https://www.amazon.com/Islam-Science-Fiction-Extraterrestrial-Life/dp/0755650360 

Islamic Theology and Extraterrestrial Life: New Frontiers in Science and Religion: https://www.amazon.com/Islam-Science-Fiction-Extraterrestrial-Life/dp/0755601270 

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Dr. Brett Robinson ~ Notre Dame Media Studies Professor10 Oct 202500:49:18

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Brett's faculty page: https://mcgrath.nd.edu/about/faculty-staff/brett-robinson-ph-d/ 


Brett's Documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA0ah6Xmqus 


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David Gladstone ~ Author, Experiencer20 Jun 202500:58:41

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David is a lifelong experiencer with some wild personal encounters. We take an uncritical trip through his stories and get his views on the cosmic situation. 

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Dr. Jeffrey Kripal ~ Professor, Author, Archives of the Impossible Founder15 Aug 202501:19:46

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Dr. Jacob Haqq Misra ~ Director and Senior Research Investigator, Blue Marble Space Institute of Science18 Apr 202501:45:34

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Dr. Misra is an astrobiologist interested in understanding the origin, distribution, and future of life. His research includes the study of planetary habitability, extraterrestrial life, environmental ethics, and space settlement. 

Jacob contributes to monthly meetings with the Galileo Project, and he supports public funding for UAP research. We discuss the search for exobiology, the state of SETI and METI, and the emerging field of UAP science. 

Jacob's Site: 
https://www.haqqmisra.net/home 

Blue Marble Space: 
https://bmsis.org/ 

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5 Resoultions For UFOlogy02 Jan 202600:11:27

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  1. Cultivate Converations
  2. Fund and Organize Science
  3. Hold Government Accountable
  4. Educate and Encourage the Media
  5. Publicly Contact Nonhuman Intelligences

Happy New Year, everyone! Wishing you a fun, successful 2026. 

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UFO Probability Logic07 Jun 202400:54:27

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We wrote this episode for people new to UFOs, and for UFO enthusiasts looking for better ways to talk to skeptical friends and family members.

We mention a large number of sources, so for full quotes and links to original documents, check out the article version of this episode here:  https://wtufo.com/ufo-probability-logic/

If you like our show, it's a huge help to us if you share it, even with a few folks.

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Thank you for listening!

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Michael Kelly - Experiencer Researcher16 May 202501:35:58

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Michael Kelly uses the skills from his philosophy degree and graduate-level teaching assistant work to research reports of encounters with nonhuman beings. He is a research fellow at the Archives of the Impossible, though he appears here entirely in a personal capacity. 

We discuss the striking data that emerges from experiencer reports, from the kinds of beings people report meeting to the types of encounters they describe. Michael shares data graphics in the YouTube version of this episode, which you can find here https://youtu.be/WXpbtZJBTVQ 

Music by John Hubbell https://mathoftrees.bandcamp.com/album/math-of-trees 

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Talking to Friends About UFOs27 May 202401:03:32

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Once you start thinking about UFOs, it can be hard to talk with people who don't know much about them. 

We explore ideas about how to approach the tricky topic and share some stories about how this has gone for us so far. 

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Renate Erdal ~ Leader of UFO Norway08 Nov 202400:49:55

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Renate Erdal is the leader of UFO Norway, a construction project manager, and a Captain in the Norwegian Army Reserves.

We talk about UFO Norway's activities, Norwegian UFO history, how to make disclosure a healthy process, and what we'd like to ask the NHI.

If you like my mission to help demystify UFOs with experts researching them, please support this show with $1/month: https://patreon.com/wtufo

If you want to see my office, you can watch these episodes on YouTube: https://youtube.com/@whattheufo 

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UFO Skepticism Is the Real Fringe Theory02 Jul 202400:15:54

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The logical argument that UFOs are non-human objects is extremely strong.

The very short version goes like this:

1. UFOs demonstrate advanced propulsion
2. UFOs have been doing that for 80 years
3. It's extremely unlikely that humans invented advanced propulsion in the 1940s
4. It's extremely likely that UFOs are non-human

If you'd like to read the full essay, you can check it out here: https://wtufo.com/ufo-skepticism-is-the-real-fringe-theory/

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7 Assumptions UFO Skeptics Make27 May 202400:34:46

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They don't teach UFOs in school, so most people don't know much about them. Because of that, most people make a series of assumptions about UFOs that aren't necessarily well-founded.

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UFO Deathbed Confessions27 May 202401:03:12

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Over the years several people have made claims about UFOs near the end of their lives. We talk about some of the most famous cases, including several from people who worked at Roswell, and one, Phil Corso, who wrote a book about working on a secret reverse engineering program for the Pentagon. 

These confessions range from simple to complex and from believable to unusual. We cover the confessions and then go a little deeper on Corso's book, The Day After Roswell. 

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Dr. Tania Searle ~ Professor of Sociology and Health Science11 Jul 202501:35:57

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UFO Media Criticism12 Dec 202500:32:16

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The main engines of American news media do a terrible job covering UFOs. What should they resolve to improve? 

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1952 DC UFOs and Losing the Thread27 May 202401:07:54

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In 1952, two waves of UFOs flew over DC, shocking America. It was big news at the time, but in the years since then, it's faded from memory. We talk about what happened and ponder how this major moment slipped into the dust of history. 

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Nick Gold ~ Declassify UAP Founder21 Feb 202502:42:42

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Nick's background in media technology put him in contact with many government agencies, which helped him see our legal system as approachable and human. He founded Declassify UAP to help people contact their elected representatives and press for greater transparency on the subject. 

This wide-ranging conversation covers everything from Nick's technical experience to the status of transparency advocacy to the metaphysical oneness of being and action. It's a doozy, and Nick's preternaturally articulate flow keeps it tripping along. Hope you enjoy! 

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Krys Devine and Ariel Elizabeth ~ Hosts of The Elephant In The Room 411 Podcast17 Jan 202501:42:31

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This is a fun one. Krys and Ariel host The Elephant In the Room 411 Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@ElephantInTheRoom411 

We talk about how to discuss the UFO subject with family and friends, how to center experiencers in the cultural conversation, and how we rate the various possible explanations for the UFO phenomenon. 

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Dr. Kevin Knuth ~ Physics Professor, Contributor to UAPX, SCU, SUAPS, Sol, IFEX and Galileo27 Dec 202401:47:32

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Dr. Knuth is a Full Professor in the Department of Physics at the University at Albany (SUNY) and the Editor-in-Chief of the journal Entropy (MDPI). He holds various positions leading and consulting with almost every major UFO organization, including UAPX, SCU, SUAPS, The Sol Foundation, IFEX and The Galileo Project.  

Kevin worked for four years at NASA Ames Research Center in the Intelligent Systems Division designing artificial intelligence algorithms for astrophysical data analysis. He has over 20 years of experience in applying Bayesian and maximum entropy methods to the design of machine learning algorithms for data analysis applied to the physical sciences. His current research interests include the foundations of physics, quantum information, inference and inquiry, autonomous robotics, and the search for and characterization of extrasolar planets. He has published over 90 peer-reviewed publications and has been invited to give over 80 presentations in 14 countries. 

https://www.albany.edu/physics/faculty/kevin-knuth

We discuss his work on UFO science, including these two papers:

Estimating the Flight Characteristics of Anomalous Unidentified Aerial Vehicles
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7514271/

Simulating the characteristics of extra-terrestrial civilizations that encounter Earth 
https://knuthlab.org/papers/knuth---kavli-2024---galactic-colonization.pdf

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Dr. Michael Cifone ~ Society for UAP Studies Co-Founder11 Oct 202403:10:20

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Dr. Cifone is an accomplished philosopher of science and the founder of the Society for UAP Studies: https://www.societyforuapstudies.org/ 

He also edits the Society's peer-reviewed journal Limina: https://limina.uapstudies.org/ 

We discuss the philosophy of science, the project of approaching UAP in contemporary science, the unique challenges and opportunities it poses as a subject, and a wide array of related topics. 

It's our furthest ranging and longest episode yet. We hope you enjoy! 

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Nicola Mitchell ~ Independent Journalist03 Oct 202501:02:10

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Moneypenny on X: https://x.com/nic_moneypenny 

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Chad Wanless ~ UAP Video Analysis13 Jun 202501:15:31

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This episode is primarily visual, so you may enjoy watching on YouTube: https://youtu.be/Dm7qAi2aLb8 

Chad and Caleb walk through a video analysis for the first fifteen minutes, then Chad expands his presentation on potential evidence of warp propulsion in UAP videos for the rest of the show. 

Is this video real? We obviously don't know. It does seem too good to be true, but it has a few details that make it seem potentially real. Neither of us is an expert in special effects, so we'd love to hear what any SFX experts think. 

Chad's First WTUFO: https://youtu.be/NRAY9qFt2UY 

TikTok Video Source: https://www.tiktok.com/@md_ridoy_ahmed145/video/7209117204732841217 

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Dr. Janis Whitlock ~ Developmental Psychologist, Research Scientist Emerita, Visible College Leadership, John Mack Institute Adviser09 May 202501:45:50

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 Dr. Janis Whitlock is a developmental psychologist and research scientist emerita from Cornell University, renowned for her work in adolescent mental health and self-injury recovery. In recent years, she has expanded her scholarly pursuits into the realm of UAP studies. As a member of the leadership team of The Visible College, a volunteer collective of scholars dedicated to serious UAP research, Dr. Whitlock explores the intersections of human consciousness, trauma, and anomalous phenomena. Her interdisciplinary approach integrates scientific inquiry with spiritual and psychological perspectives, aiming to deepen our understanding of human potential and the broader implications of UAP encounters. 

We discuss mysterious communication with nonhuman beings, negotiating ontological updates with our peers, and how to keep our heads on straight as we navigate this time of intense change for our species. 

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Why UFOs Matter14 Jun 202400:29:30

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The UFO phenomenon has huge implications for almost every field of human endeavor. We consider the biggest areas of impact.

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Matt Laslo ~ Journalist, Professor, Public Speaker, Founder of AskaPol Politics04 Jul 202502:02:16

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Dr. Jim Madden ~ Thinking Carefully About UAP14 Nov 202500:58:45

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Dr. James Madden teaches philosophy at Benedictine College. He's written three books, including "Unidentified Flying Hyperobject: UFOs, Philosophy, and the End of the World." 

We discuss how to think carefully about UAP, the probabilities of their origins, the tension between caution and productive investigation, what it would take to prove UAP are nonhuman, and the possibilities of contact. 

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Jim's Papers: https://www.jdmadden.com/philosophy-course 

Jim's Substack: https://jdmadden.substack.com/ 

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Grant Cameron ~ UFO Researcher and Writer07 Feb 202503:26:19

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Grant Cameron has been researching UFOs for over 50 years. He's a prolific writer and speaker, with over 20 publications to his name. 

Grant's interview with us is freewheeling and intense. To be honest, we don't know what to make of some of his claims. However, we respect his lifelong commitment to the subject and we're grateful he chose to share so much of his precious time with us. 

As we say at the top of the episode, this one's not for beginners. Seasoned UFO thinkers will have a better toolkit for navigating bizarre, surprising and/or dubious truth claims. If you're in the early days of your UFO journey, you might want to start with another episode, or just prepare yourself to onboard this information with careful consideration. 

It may be mostly true or partly true or mostly false, but no one could call this deluge boring. Grant's poured his soul into this research, and we're proud to share his views in our Season 3 finale.

Thank you for continuing this fascinating journey with us. We hope you're having fun! 

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Grant on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Mr.-Grant-Cameron/author/B00EFGCJRC 

Grant referenced over three dozen interesting research trailheads, from people to programs to songs to buildings. We've included them in a post on our site so you can check them out yourself: https://wtufo.com/s3e13-grant-cameron-ufo-researcher-and-writer/

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Rich Hoffman ~ Scientific Coalition for UAP Studies Co-Founder20 Dec 202401:39:16

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Rich Hoffman celebrated 60 years of UFO investigation in 2024. He's an IT consultant and strategist, and a defense contractor with Army Material Command. One of the first members of MUFON, he rose through the ranks to serve as Director of Investigations, Star Team Manager, Director of Strategic Projects, and State Director for multiple states. 

Rich founded the Scientific Coalition for UAP Studies to connect scientists around the world and apply rigorous research methods to the investigation of UFOs and their properties. He's contributed directly to several deep-dive research papers about both particular UAP events and the broader patterns revealed in high-quality historical data. 

Rich tells us about his career, takes us on a detailed tour through the scientific work of SCU, and previews upcoming developments in the field. 

We hope you enjoy our show! If you do, please consider supporting us so we can get the word out about our work and the cool people we're talking to. 

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Thomas Jane ~ Actor, Writer, Director, Producer14 Feb 202501:33:27

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Thomas is a movie star. He's played lead roles in major films like The Punisher and The Predator, and TV shows like Hung and The Expanse. He manages entertainment companies, directs, produces and stars in film and TV projects, and writes both fiction and nonfiction. He's also a long-time UFO researcher with a forthcoming book about the phenomenon. 

We talk about the state of human life, the motives, behaviors and diversity of potential visiting NHI, and how we should proceed into the next era of our species' interaction. 

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Links from our chat: 

NICAP 1952 Sightings: https://www.nicap.org/chronos/1952FIXED.htm 

UFOs: The Secret History: https://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Secret-History/dp/1569247013 

Above Top Secret: https://www.amazon.com/Above-Top-Secret-Worldwide-U-F/dp/0688092020 

UFOs and the National Security State 

Part 1 https://www.amazon.com/UFOs-National-Security-State-Chronology/dp/1571743170 

Part 2 https://www.amazon.com/UFOs-National-Security-State-1973-1991/dp/0967799511 

UFOs: Generals, Pilots, and Government Officials Go on the Record https://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Generals-Pilots-Government-Officials/dp/0307717089 

UFOs: A Scientist Explains What We Know (And Don't Know) https://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Scientist-Explains-What-Know/dp/1538173581 

UFO Sightings Desk Reference https://www.amazon.com/UFO-Sightings-Desk-Reference-2001-2015/dp/1544219237

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