Woodland Walks - The Woodland Trust Podcast – Détails, épisodes et analyse

Dive into the inspiring story of Hall Farm Estate in Devon, a fairytale land once owned by Trust founder Ken Watkins. We meet current custodian, tenant farmer Seb, to discover how crucial conservation work is continuing here as the 300-acre farm integrates more trees into a regenerative farming system. As we walk through picturesque heathland and wood pasture on the edge of Dartmoor, Seb tells us of the ambitious plan to get an astonishing 20,000 new trees in the ground and how they'll benefit his cows and the local landscape. Full of enthusiasm and love for the land, he hopes the project will encourage more landowners to adopt tree‑rich, nature‑friendly approaches.  

Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk

We're supporting the sharing of farming activity at Hall Farm thanks to funding from Dartmoor's Dynamic Landscape, made possible with the National Lottery Heritage Fund and National Lottery players. 

Transcript

You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust, presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. 

Adam: Well, for this podcast we're going to Hall Farm Estate in Devon, which is very special. It once belonged to the Woodland Trust founder, Ken Watkins, and it's where he brought to life his vision to protect and restore nature, which is continuing today. Five decades later, that vision is still at the heart, really, of what the Woodland Trust does. Now, the farm I'm going to sits on the fringe of Dartmoor at Harford. It's made up of Gorage Waste, Hall Plantation, Kingswood, and Hall Farm. And there's a rich mix of habitats, it includes ancient and veteran trees, mature hedgerows, ancient woodland, and even, so unusual, not just in the UK, but of course in the world, it also includes temperate rainforest species. And what's going on at Hall Farm is particularly exciting, and I think it's fair to say ambitious as well, because in addition to continuing the conservation work that Ken Watkins started, it integrates woods and trees within regenerative farming. And so it's bringing together a proper commercial farm and a sense of looking after the land and the environment around you in a very particular way. I'm going to find out how that works and to meet the people doing it. If you want to know where Hall Farm Estate is, if you know what you're doing with maps, it is grid reference SX632592, map reference explorer 28, OS Land Ranger 202. Or you can just go to the Woodland Trust website and look up Hall Farm Estate. That's woodlandtrust.org.uk. Enough from me. Let's go to the farm. 

Seb: Good morning. I'm Seb Powell and me and my partner Freya have just, well, six months ago taken on Hall Farm, the tenancy at Hall Farm. And we're going to show you around. 

Adam: Brilliant. And we're starting at the, his is really lovely. There's old farm buildings over there. It's all super picturesque, much more picturesque than many of the farms I've been on. 

Seb: Yeah, it's definitely a special place. I think, I mean, the first time I came here, I fell in love with it pretty much instantly. And I think it has that effect on most people. It's described as a fairytale land, I think, in a sort of historic book about Hall Farm. And why is that? I suppose it's just rich in natural character. There's these old walls, there's a beautiful lea, I think we'll walk past in a minute, so you've got this trickling sound of water in a lot of the parts of the farm. Lots of trees, obviously. And we're on the edge of the moor. 

Adam: We're going to go for a walk, but we're starting with a map to explain where on earth we are, the sort of... the journey we're about to go on. So just talk me through what we're going to see here. 

Seb: The map shows us, obviously, the farm, it's 300 acres of which about 80 acres are woodland and the rest is pasture. So it's an upland farm. And then we've just thought, well, how can we integrate all sorts of different types of tree planting? So on this map, we have an idea here, which is in one field called the dehesa, which is based on a Portuguese, Spanish, like cork oak, not plantation, but where livestock would basically live in amongst the woodland. So we're going to try and do that here. Not with cork oak, but with native oaks, but also walnut trees, for example. 

Adam: Oh, look, is that a neighbour passing through? 

Seb: That is actually, we've got an event here today, they're demonstrating the use of no fence collars. So yeah, part of the farm actually is we have quite a lot of sort of outreach stuff going on and it's great, it gets us involved with all the neighbours. 

Adam: Brilliant. Okay, so that noise of that Land Rover is a bit of the outreach. Very good. Okay, so you've got... That's about, okay, that's a great place to start. I want to talk to you about that. So lead on to wherever we should go first. 

Seb: Well, let's go, we're going to go down the hill a little bit. We're going to go to a place where trees have already been planted about 40 years ago. So when we were coming up with this map and the ideas of what we're going to do, we looked at what was here already and trees have already been incorporated here and we thought, well, we can learn from this. That's what we're going to do. 

Adam: Lead on. So one of the special things about this farm is its use of something called silvopasture. So what is that? 

Seb: Silvopasture, in essence, is integrating trees and livestock. So it's sort of bringing woodlands, where woodlands meet pasture, I suppose, and trying to integrate the two, merge the edges of where those blurred lines of woodland in theory can come into field and think of all sorts of ways how we can sort of recreate that. 

Adam: Okay, so I'll hold on. So, okay, so what is the purpose of silvopasture? Is it just a charitable thing to get trees into the ground or is it a different type of farming? I don't quite understand the benefit. 

Seb: Yeah, it really is a different type of farming where you incorporate trees into the farming system and then the trees will have benefit to the farming system or the livestock in the system. So in our case, we've got cattle and they will benefit in a dry, hot year from the shelter of the trees. And in the winter, if the cattle are outdoors, they will benefit from the, as you know, the trees acting as a windbreak. 

Adam: Which sounds sort of obvious and easy. So why doesn't everyone do that? I mean, just a tree providing free shelter rather than having to take the cows into barns or something. It sounds like a cheap way of doing it. Why isn't everyone doing this if it's so straightforward? 

Seb: Well, I think it's an old practice and most people know that, you know, we're in a modern time where we don't always use old practices anymore. So there's a bit of a revival of what in Devon used to be called the Devon Barn, which is basically just cattle up against the hedge. And we're just trying to revive that really and use it with a modern twist, incorporating trials of how trees could, you know new tree planting, not just traditional hedges, could be incorporated into fields in trees. 

Adam: And how complex is it? I mean, the way you describe it sounds very simple. Look, we need some shelter. We'll chuck some trees in the ground and wait a few years and then there'll be shelter. Is it that simple or is there something more complex going on? 

Seb: I think in essence, yeah, it is really simple. I mean, decide where you want the trees and plant them. The only complexity probably comes in is how long is it going to take for those trees to grow? Did you decide that where you planted them was actually the place you wanted them or are you going to go in five years and decide that you want them over there? And are they going to be eaten by anything? Are they going to survive? Is there going to be a drought? So there's challenges, but I think that's part of our sort of journey in a way, is also to learn from the process. 

Adam: I want to ask you some more of that, but we've come to, not a puddle, I'd say this is a minor lake we've got to cross here! Okay, so there's a fence. So we're going to open the fence. Oh, are we going to climb across that? 

Seb: Yeah there's a very cleverly perched... 

Adam: Okay, right, we're crossing. Sorry, I'm just concentrating so I'm not talking or holding the microphone. We're crossing a sort of little stone bridge, which is very nice. I thought I was going to have to try and leap across that. Okay, so yes, we're talking about planting trees and everything. Is there any downside to it at all? 

Seb: I think in the short term, if you look at it, you look at tree planting with like a conventional farmer's hat on, you're losing potentially productive land. So you've got to wait, you've got to offset that, you know, for maybe five or ten years, there's going to be less, this land is going to have less pasture. And we're going to accept that and realise that, but in 10 years' time, there's going to be these trees and they're going to offer all these benefits. Does that make sense? 

Adam: Yeah, it does. Very good. Okay, we're through the... wettest part without opening to a much broader field. Is this one of your fields? 

Seb: This is, yeah, this is Welsh Hill, and this is actually one of the first fields, or the first field, where we put the cattle into when we moved here, because there was some grass here. And the cattle, the first thing they did was, in fact, we let them into those woods, which are about 40 years old. And they went in for the shelter, because there was a howling easterly wind, and they started calving in there. 

Adam: Wow, that's so the cows here are living outside all the time. Is that the idea? 

Seb: Yeah, try and keep the cattle out for the whole year. 

Adam: And the advantage of that is what? 

Seb: Well, so having the cattle out all year, the main benefit to us is it simplifies the system. In a traditional farming system, you'd make hay or silage or whatever to feed the cattle when they're in the barns in the winter. You'd also have to bed them. And there's a whole process there involved that you're making hay and then you bring it in, then you're feeding it every day in winter, then you're mucking out the sheds, then you're spreading the muck. We've kind of turned it a little bit on its head, and this isn't a new practice, it's just a practice that's being revived. You could call it regenerative agriculture if you want. You could call it traditional farming, you could call it organic farming. But basically it's just a very low input approach which simplifies our life and means that the cattle actually also have a simplified life as well. They're outdoors doing what they want to be doing. 

Adam: That sounds amazing. It just sounds so obvious to me. I'm just thinking it can't be that obvious because otherwise everyone would be doing that. And it sounds like your response to that is, well, people are just stuck in their ways. That's not how a lot of farmers behave because that's not how they behave, is it? 

Seb: Yeah, very good question and possibly one I can't answer. All I know is that it's working for us and that we try and upsell our end product as best we can, so we're getting the most value we can for our milk and our beef, and reduced as much as we can the costs involved in producing those products. So outwintering the cattle, having the cattle grazing, having, you know, I quite often think of myself as a human muck spreader, but I'm not muck spreading, I'm just moving the cattle, if that make sense. Is it replicable? I don't see why it isn't. And there's more and more farms now that are realising that they could actually adapt this system with whatever numbers of cattle you have. And actually, weirdly, works better with higher stock numbers, believe it or not. So the concept of mob grazing, which you might have heard of, which is something we're using to graze our cattle, which is basically move them around in little mobs so that they put fertility into the soil in concentrated doses, and then they have the soil and the grassland has maximum rest period. It's basically replicating what happens in like the Savannah where like herds are, will they be wildebeest? 

Adam: Yeah. Wildebeest in the Savannah, yeah, not in Devon, but in the Savannah, yeah. 

Seb: That's what they're doing. And they are like having that sort of almost like slash and burn effect like happens in the Amazon of rejuvenating the soil and then giving it a rest. So we're just duplicating something that is a natural process. 

Adam: Great. So, but you've not got any trees in this field. I can see a couple over there. 

Seb: Yeah, interesting. So there's existing tree planting that's happened before us. So 200 years ago, maybe plus, where the temperate rainforest down in the valley along the River Erme has been buffered with trees. And we're going to basically do another tranche of buffering that woodland again, so doing our little bit to extend existing woodland around this farm. 

Adam: And it's interesting, you said that the trees over there were pre-existing, but you said how long ago? 

Seb: I think only 40 years ago. 

Adam: Yeah, that's what I thought you said. I mean, I think often we think about forests and trees, I'll plant them now and it's always that old phrase, you know, you plant it there for your children, not you will never benefit from the shade. But these aren't small trees, these are huge trees. And that's grown in a few decades. That's surprising, isn't it? 

Seb: Yeah, it's surprising and it's also quite topical in that I think the person who had the foresight to get those trees planted was Ken Watkins, who's founder of the Woodland Trust. So we can learn from what his vision was on this farm. He was like, I think trees might fit in the corner of this field. Little did he know that 40 years later, a farmer comes along and he's like, they're really useful and we're going to put our cattle in there. In the summer, I think it was August, the cattle were here and I actually came to check them and I couldn't see them anywhere. And initially they were all in the bottom of that barn. And the reason they were in the bottom of that barn was because it was a cool place. They'd all crammed into the bottom of the stone barn. But then I thought, well, why don't we let them into the trees? They don't have to be jammed in the bottom of a barn. So we cut open the fence of this 40-year-old tree planting and they went in. 

Adam: And they don't damage the trees? 

Seb: I mean, these are now established trees. You know, they're, what are we talking, they're like 12, 15, 20 metres high. If anything, they have, like the trampling effect they have in there is almost having a positive effect. The hooves will clear a bit of ground. In theory, then if we close that off, there would be some natural regeneration would happen. You know seeds could take in the areas that the cattle had disrupted the surface of the ground. 

Adam: Okay, where to? 

Seb: I think where we're going to go next is into a place called Blacklands Corner, which is at the bottom of a really beautiful bit of heathland. Quite wet. 

Adam: Okay, I'm prepared for wet. Off we go. Okay, so we've come into what we were talking about, the wood pasture, which is lots of trees and some grass. So the cows come in here and graze amongst the trees. All very picturesque, isn't it? It's a beautiful part, I wish I had a proper, we were just saying, I wish I had a camera crew here, we could have made a beautiful video, so maybe next time. But it's a nice place to pause for a moment, just as the cows find it nice, I too find it nice to stop here. I'm just interested in how, your journey here. So were you always a farmer or were you always interested in this area? What brought you to this farm in Devon? 

Seb: Good question. I was brought up on a farm. My dad was a farmer and then we left the farm. I loved everything about the farm and I followed my dad like, you know, like he was just everything he did was gold. And we left the farm when I was about 10 and I just always knew I wanted to farm. Skip forward 20 years, I did all sorts of other things, driving buses around Scotland and tourists around South America and having a great time and avoiding real life. And then I met my partner Freya and someone inadvertently said, you don't fancy milking cows? And I said, yes, that's the ticket. And then it all began eight years ago and we bought some cows and away we went. 

Adam: That's a huge change from driving tourists around the Highlands of Scotland and Latin America to farming in Devon. What is the appeal of this lifestyle then for you? 

Seb: I think, I mean, I've got a lot of nostalgic memories, I suppose, of growing up on a farm. I love the outdoors. I've always loved the outdoors. I like good food. Farming combines a lot of those things. It's loving the outdoors, like you're basically just, you're in the outdoors, so you're doing something really nice, feels wholesome. It's quite direct, what you're doing, you know, producing food whilst looking after a beautiful place. It just ticks a lot of boxes of things that I'm interested in, really. 

Adam: One always hears it's a hard life being a farmer, is it? 

Seb: Depends which day you ask a farmer on, I suppose. I think you can sometimes find yourself being a bit of a jack of all trades. So, one day you might be trying to work out your invoices or, the price of your yoghurt and the next day you're trying to work out where you're going to plant however many trees. I think yes and no. There's lots of amazing moments of beauty and then there's bits where you're like, God, what am I doing? Normally I start off at get the kids off, they're off at 7.30 to school, and I go off and get the cows and milk the cows. We only milk the cows once a day, so in theory, when you milk them, could be midday, could be six in the evening. So kind of the system we're designing is also one that's sustainable for our life, if that makes sense. 

Adam: Okay, that also surprises me. You see, I'm a city boy, I used to present breakfast news and we had to start at 3.30 in the morning. And I always thought, me and the milk farmers, we're up at 3.30 in the morning, but that's not true. It's just breakfast news presenters who are starting that shift. So that's really interesting. So this farm is different and special because of its connection to the Woodland Trust. How did you get involved in the Woodland Trust and, not your farming journey, but what made you interested in the importance of trees? 

Seb: I think I've always known that trees are important. They're a good thing. I was actually born in Finland and Finland is covered in trees. So whether it's like in my genetics, I don't know. But as we started farming, we soon started integrating trees as part of our farming. And now, being tenants of the Woodland Trust, we've got the full backing of all their, I suppose, knowledge and know-how and passion to support us in integrating more trees. 

Adam: I mean, we never want to be too political, but we happen to be talking on the day that I hear the Conservative Party is perhaps thinking of dropping net zero targets for lots of reasons that they feel will be popular amongst a lot of people that are worried about cost of energy and the competitiveness of British industry. But I think it'd be worrying to a lot of the environmental movement. So I'm just interested in your view, not on that policy, but generally on how tuned in the nation is to the environmental message, do you think everyone's on board, there's still people to be brought over, or that it is a live debate? And you know, well, maybe planting trees everywhere isn't the right thing. I don't know. What's your view about this debate in the nation and what people feel about it? 

Seb: Interesting. Definitely a political question, which I don't feel I'm very connected to, living out here in like a bit of a rural idyll. I'm also conscious that some of our customers are, it's quite a niche custom, you know, if you decide you want to eat good food and you're willing to pay a little bit more for it, that's already a decision or almost a liberty that you're able to do. Actually, just driving back to the farm yesterday, I was thinking that we're still reliant on fossil fuels, like we still use, you know, we've got our car we use to take the kids to school and we've got the pickup we use to take the cattle to slaughter. So there's always more we can do. I think we need to keep focused on those targets and maybe we need to raise the profile of what's currently going on to reach those targets. For example, what we're trying to do here, which is low input farming and tree planting. 

Adam: Talking of which, whilst we're paused here, we've been talking a lot about planting trees and the importance of trees on farms like this. What's the scale of the plan here? I mean, how many trees are we talking about you planning on planting and the sort of timescale we're talking about? 

Seb: So the plan we've got is take our 300 acre farm, I think a third of it will have trees, new trees on, in various different densities. So some will be really low density, like, you know, 25 trees in a small field. Others will be 1,000 stems per hectare, which is, if you're in old money per acre, that's like 2,500 trees per acre. It's quite a lot of trees. In total, I think it's 20,000 trees we're going to plant, is the plan, all going well over the next two years. So 10,000 trees a year.  

Adam: Wow. That's not just you and Freya planting those, are you? 

Seb: No, I'm hoping that all the Woodland Trust volunteers are going to come along and have a day out and anyone else who's interested. 

Adam: I was going to say, because you should be busy planting, you shouldn't be talking to me, go get a shovel! Okay, that's a lot of trees. And the sorts of trees going into the ground here are what? 

Seb: It's predominantly native trees. So we're wanting to recreate the trees that fit into this landscape, like, we're in the national park, so there's also like a visual, it's got to look aesthetically okay, but we can also play within that little bit with, I mean, something really interesting we've been looking at actually with the Woodland Trust is climate projections for 2080 and what temperature are we going to potentially be dealing with and what tree species might like it here. So we spoke earlier about this idea of the Spanish dehesa, which we've called now the Devon dehesa, which is, in theory could have a few cork oaks in there and in 2080 they might be doing just fine. 

Adam: So actually you're planting trees really to anticipate climate change and which might do well in half a century's time or so. So that's really interesting. So sort of the Spanish cork oaks might go in here. And predominantly you've talked about native trees. What sort of trees are we talking about? 

Seb: Yeah, so there'll be, I mean, we're looking here at oaks, hazels, what else have we got? There's a lot of beeches here, but I don't think we're planting too many beeches. Yeah, rowan, willow, wlder, alder. 

Adam: Right. All of them. Rowan, my favourite, I think. Rowan, my favourite. Okay, very good. Where are we off to next? 

Seb: I think we're going to go through this little heathland, which is again one of my, one of my favourite bits of the farm. We're going to pop out and we should see the cows, which... 

Adam: Cows, of course. We've been talking about cows and I've not seen any. It could all be an elaborate con, that he hasn't got any cows, so we will have a look *laughs* I spy cows in a field. They're all sitting down. How long would they be in this field for before you rotate them? 

Seb: This field, they'll probably be in, they went in Tuesday morning. Where are we, Thursday? I'll probably move them this afternoon or tomorrow morning. 

Adam: So they're only two or three days in a field? 

Seb: Yeah, and the rotation speeds up at different times of the year. So now the grass growth is slowing down. So the rotation will either, like, we either start excluding fields or we'll go faster and then totally stop. And then you'll see as we go into the next field, you'll see bits that we've made for hay and where we're going to graze in the winter, which will be rolling out bales of hay called bale grazing. A bit of a revolutionary practice. 

Adam: Tell me about that, but I tell you what, strikes me is I know nothing about cows. Could you give me a one-minute primer? You're just closing the gate, hold on. Now, yes, what do I need to know about cows in a minute or so? 

Seb: I can tell you about our cows? 

Adam: Yes, yeah, your cows. 

Seb: So we've got, what breed have we got? We've got Jersey crosses, which are like a New Zealand cross. So they did originally come from Jersey. 

Adam: Jersey crosses? 

Seb: Yeah. 

Adam: I think they said Jersey clotted, like that's where clotted cream comes from, straight out the cow. Okay, Jersey crosses. 

Seb: Kiwi crosses, you can call them as well. So they're bred predominantly in New Zealand on a place which is very wet and grows lots of grass. And that's all they do. So we've got Jerseys, we've got a Beef Shorthorn bull, which is a British breed. And so then we have these crosses, which we get a Jersey and a Beef Shorthorn cross, which is the little calf you're looking at here. 

Adam: Right, so are there bulls as well? No, there won't be bulls in this. 

Seb: The bull is with the milking herd, which is the other gang we'll go up and see in a minute. These are all the young stock, so these are all sort of 15 months old. There's younger calves, the smaller ones, which some of them have just been weaned. And there's a few beef suckler cows in here. So the big shorthorns, the big red cows in there, they've got their calves on them all the time. 

Adam: And that's also different here, isn't it? Because often in large scale dairy farming, the calves get taken away from the mothers very early on. But you don't do that, do you? 

Seb: Yeah, so that is a practice that actually Freya has like basically insisted we start with because she's a mother. We thought that it would have, yeah, it would go down well with some of our customers and it has done. We try and keep the calves on their mums. So we're basically sharing the milk up to three or four months. At three and a half months old, the calves are basically drinking all the milk. So then we go, all right, we're going to now sell some of that milk. But it's definitely better than, or we feel it's better than, weaning them at, you know, a day old and then having a whole other process of having to rear those calves on milk, which is a process. You need someone to do that. Whereas the cows are just producing milk anyway. 

Adam: Interesting. And so again, ignorant question, but these are not bulls, they're cows, but they've got horns. 

Seb: Yeah. 

Adam: So it's not just bulls that have horns, cows have horns? 

Seb: Cows can have horns, yeah. Again, another practice that we've thought we don't really feel we believe in or fits with what we're doing, de-horning cattle, we think they've got horns for a reason, like they grow, let's let them have them. We don't, we're not pushing our cattle in any way that they're stressed, so they're not coming to basically jab us with their horns. Touch wood! 

Adam: I was going to say, it's interesting because I think quite recently I've started reading about how dangerous cows are and how people don't, they wander across fields and don't realise these are big animals and they can squash you and stuff. Is that something you have to be aware of when you're dealing with them? 

Seb: I mean, I'm totally at one with these guys and they know me and I know them and yeah, I never had any issues. If you have to get them all into a little pen for some reason, like the one day the vet's here to do the TB test or something, that's a bit of an unusual situation. You're getting them in and it's not their normal sitting out in the field. They could be a bit edgy and you might not want to be in amongst them. So yeah, I think it's just, yeah, I mean, footpaths, that's quite often what comes up, isn't it that people are walking through fields of cows and the cows, if anything, are just curious, they're coming over and it's probably just daunting to have 10 big cows come to you. Your instinct is to run away. But more often than not, I think, cattle are pretty friendly, and if anything, they're scared of humans. 

Adam: Well, personally, I think it's always better to be safe than sorry, and I'd advise people to be careful of cows. They are large animals, after all, but I know I'm a bit of a townie, so it's not my natural environment. Anyway, that all aside, what is happening here isn't just important in its own right, but as a sort of model for what others can do. So for those with land, those farmers interested in this kind of approach, what are the lessons that have been learned here that could apply elsewhere? 

Seb: I suppose really just to be open-minded to some small changes, or big changes. I don't think there's any prescriptive size of change that counts as a valid change, you could plant an acre of trees and that's brilliant. You could plant 300 acres of trees and that's amazing. So, I mean, do whatever feels right for your farm or for your circumstance. Yeah, so the Woodland Trust are obviously our landlords here, so we have them on speed dial, but any farmer can go to the Woodland Trust for advice on tree planting. And it's great advice, I mean, I'd say hand on heart, even though you don't always speak totally openly about your landlords, like the advice they're giving us, you know, as outreach advisors is amazing and has given us basically the confidence to go and plant the 20,000 trees we've just basically signed up to plant and the what and the how and the where of how to do it. 

Adam: Which is a lovely way of ending. And of course, the Woodland Trust website has tons of information you may find useful and it's a great organisation to be part of anyway. So, until next time, wherever you are, whatever you're doing, happy wandering. 

Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you are listening. And do give us a review and a rating. If you want to find out more about our woods and those that are close to you, check out the Woodland Trust website. Just head to the Visiting Woods pages. Thank you. 

You might look at everyday items in a different light after this episode, as we hear best-selling author and Woodland Trust ambassador, Jonathan Drori CBE, reveal some of the fascinating things we make with plants. From the well-known coffee bean to the tree bark that's used in spacecraft, he shares some of the amazing relationships between familiar objects and the natural world as we meet beneath a beautiful beech tree on Parliament Hill in London. 

These stories and more feature in Jonathan's latest book, The Stuff That Stuff Is Made Of, which aims to spark an interest in nature for younger readers. He explains how discovering the wonder of nature in a fun, exciting way as a child can inspire a lifelong connection, just as it did for him. We also discover why fruit is sweet, the value of the mandrake plant, how beech is thought to resist lightning and more.

Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk

Transcript

You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust, presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. 

Adam: Jonathan Drori CBE, is a man of many talents. He's a trustee of the Eden Project and of Kew Gardens, a member of the Royal Institution, a man who used to be a senior commissioning editor at the BBC, and he's also an ambassador for the Woodland Trust and a best-selling author of books such as Around the World in 80 Trees and his latest, The Stuff That Stuff Is Made Of, a book for younger people about the plants in their lives and the things they make which are all around them. And whereas these podcasts often take me on long journeys, this time, well, it's just a hop, skip and a jump away in London at Parliament Hill, where we met to talk about his book and the things we didn't know about the stuff around us all. Right, we are... it's a bit windy right here. It actually sounds windier than it is, but we are in Parliament Hill, or thereabouts, with Jonathan Drori, who has written the stuff that stuff is made of, and is also a big noise, essentially, in the Woodland Trust itself, of which we can talk lots about. But we're standing by a beech tree. So, Jonathan, why did you write this book? 

Jonathan: I wanted to do something that would make kids kind of interested in the natural environment. Starting with the things they're interested in, which are kind of ice cream and chocolate and sport and dinosaurs and all that kind of thing. And use their own interests to sort of spark other interests in nature, in trees and plants, and also actually in history and folklore and culture, which are all sort of bound up with those things. One of the things I've tried to do with the book is to explain things from the plant's point of view as well as from a human point of view. So there are all these qualities that we desire plants for, whether that's sort of sweet things to eat or things to build with or things to make musical instruments out of. And they're all in the book and that's fine. But I've also tried to explain, you know, why has bamboo evolved in the way that it has? And why has a beech tree evolved the way it has? Why does chocolate have sweet mush around the seeds? You know, why do the grasses feed us? Why is sugar cane sweet? And why do we love it? 

Adam: And so through this book, you're trying to attempt to do that by explaining stuff like tea and chocolate, indeed, where it comes from. 

Jonathan: Yeah, I mean, there are 30 different species that I deal with in the book. And on the right-hand side of the page, there's a whole lot of information about the way that the plant grows, how it's cultivated, the relationships that it has with other plants, with the little critters that might pollinate it or disperse the seeds. And on the left-hand side, there's a whole lot of stories about the plant, all kinds of kind of fascinating facts and really about the human relationships with that plant. 

Adam: Do you think we have lost that connection with the plants around us. So that this sort of stuff might have been really obvious a few generations ago or not. 

Jonathan: *laughs* A leading question, m'lud! Yes, I mean, you know, with urban living and things being in packets at the supermarket, you know, we perhaps don't think very much about where the basic materials for our existence come from, whether it's things we eat or things we build with or things that we just sort of like looking at and playing with. 

Adam: Is it important to know those connections? I mean, you as someone who likes nature, I can understand why you might feel that's important. But is it important for us all to rebuild that connection? 

Jonathan: I think that my love and interest in nature came from my parents, actually, at the time, dragging me around Kew Gardens and Richmond Park and telling me stories about the trees and plants that were growing there. And they did that in such a way that I would be interested because they knew who I was and so they found the things that would sort of excite me. And I think I want to do the same for young people so that they grow up with a kind of interest and admiration and some sort of understanding of nature. But you can't sort of ram it down people's throats. It needs to be fun. 

Adam: Yeah. But why is that important? I understand that's what you want to do, but why is it important? 

Jonathan: Well, we've only got one planet. And if we don't look after it, then, you know, our lives and livelihoods are doomed. So that's the sort of very basic reason. And also we are part of nature, so just, not having an understanding or rejecting nature is kind of rejecting part of ourselves, I think. 

Adam: So it's a soft environmental message here. And that's also seems to me important because, well, from my perspective anyway, it feels like a lot of environmental charities and environmentally minded people push a sort of narrative, the world could end, it's all a disaster. And actually, I worry that, although it's well-meaning, it might turn people off. Now that isn't what you're doing with this. 

Jonathan: No, there's none of that in the book, none of it at all. What I've tried to do is to excite people about the stories of pollination, of the little critters that live in and around plants, the relationships that the plants have with other plants and so on in the environment, and make that sort of exciting and fun and interesting enough that people will just say, say to themselves, that's kind of something that's worth protecting. Maybe they won't think that for 10 or 15 years. 

Adam: There's lots of interesting stories here. I think the one that really struck me, I think, was about vanilla. So vanilla, obviously, people use it in cooking, they might use essence of it or whatever. But am I right in saying, you think it's in the book, you actually go, there was a boy, and you name this boy... oh sorry is that a bird I can hear? *laughs* sorry! 

Jonathan: It's the parakeets. 

Adam: Oh it's the parakeets, I thought there was a squeaky wheel behind me! No no. All right, parakeets in the background. A named boy who taught the world how to pollinate vanilla. Tell me that story. 

Jonathan: Yes, it was an amazing story actually about vanilla that in about the sort of 1840s, when they brought vanilla plants over from Mexico where they were native, to Africa where they wanted the plantations to grow and the little bee that pollinates vanilla didn't really travel. And so they had to find something else that would pollinate the vanilla plants so that the vanilla plants would propagate and grow. And sadly, they couldn't find any insect that would do that. No local insects would do this in Africa or outside Mexico. So all the vanilla plants had to be pollinated by hand. And it was a 12-year-old boy, Edmond Albius, who worked out how to do this. And by basically sort of cutting a bit of membrane and then squidging the two bits together and right to this present day, that's the way that vanilla is pollinated, by hand. And that's why it's so expensive. 

Adam: It's amazing, isn't it? Apart from the vanilla story, do any others stand out in your mind? Is there ones your favourites? 

Jonathan: Oh, it's like asking your favourite children, isn't it? I mean, there are all sorts of things in there that I notice when I talk to young people, to sort of eight, nine-year-olds, they sort of come alive. Those who've read the Hogwarts stories and Harry Potter, they're amazed to discover that mandrake is actually a real plant. And of course, mandrake used to be very, very valuable because it was one of the very few plants that could be used as an anaesthetic. And people used to, back in the Roman days, they used to mix it with wine and then sort of do minor operations and things. Don't try this at home! It's actually a real plant. It grows somewhat, I've seen this in this country, but it grows in Italy quite well and it has these rather sort of mind-altering attributes to it, which are a bit odd. 

Adam: So it might be used by people who want that sort of druggy effect, but does it have any other purpose? 

Jonathan: Well, not now, but it was an anaesthetic, and anaesthetics were so sort of unlikely, you know, if you think about it, you take something and it makes the pain go away, that people associated the plant with witchcraft, especially as it gave you the impression of flying. And so a plant that could alter your outlook and the way that you see the world so profoundly, and the way you perceive it so profoundly, was associated with witchcraft. And people made all sorts of stories about the mandrakes that they, that when you pulled it out of the ground, they said, that you could hear it scream because sometimes the roots look a bit like a person, especially with a bit of judicious whittling. And so people would say you've got to get a dog, tie the dog to the mandrake root and then kick the dog or throw it some food and it pulls it out. And the scream, they said, of a mandrake root could make you, could kill you. 

Adam: And weren't they doing that to stop people, scaring people away from getting their valuable mandrake? 

Jonathan: That's right. It was such a valuable plant that the ideal thing to do would be to put these superstitions around, these notions around, so people wouldn't pull them out, because it's very valuable. 

Adam: Hippy dragon sort of thing. Well, look, we are here in London, a park in London, a beautiful park. But you've taken me to one of the few trees that actually appears in the book, because so many of the, well, I think almost all the trees really, you wouldn't find in the UK, is that right? 

Jonathan: Well, you can certainly find eucalyptus. You can, you know, it's not a native, but you can find them here. And any other trees that are in there, you'd certainly find in botanic gardens. And there are fir trees, Christmas trees in there as well. But here we are by a lovely, lovely beech. And I mean, there are lots of reasons I love beech trees. In the book, one of the reasons that it's in there is because beech wood is made for, is used for veneer and it's used for making furniture and so on in a sustainable way, so it's a very pleasing wood. 

Adam: And why is it good for furniture then? 

Jonathan: It's stable, it doesn't shrink too much.  

Adam: Is it bendable, is it one of those trees that you can... 

Jonathan: Yeah and you can sort of use steam to bend it into the shapes that you want. And there are these fantastic machines that make veneer by sort of peeling off a kind of onion ring, rotating the trunk and then sort of peeling off the wood underneath to make veneer. As I say, using sustainable beech forests. But one of the things that I love about the beech is the link with superstition because in Germany, and actually in quite a few countries in Europe, there's this saying that lightning never strikes a beech tree. And in actual fact, lightning strikes beech trees just as often as any other trees that are of similar height. But beech trees seem to survive. And the reason they survive is because of this wonderfully smooth bark. The bark continually renews itself, unlike other trees. And so you've got a layer that is sloughing off all the time and leaving this very smooth bark. And that smoothness means that during wet weather, during a storm, the outside of the tree has a continuous film of water on it. It's wet all the way and that can act as a lightning conductor, whereas the craggy old oak, that has dry bits in it and so the electricity from a lightning strike is diverted through the middle of the tree and would blow it asunder. So the beech tree can survive. 

Adam: Fantastic. Talking about the bark on the tree, one of the other things I spotted in your book was, I think it's cork trees and how the bark of that is special in the way we use it, but also in the way that the tree regenerates, just explain a bit about that. 

Jonathan: Yes, I mean, most trees, if you sort of cut a whole ring around the tree, it'll die. But cork actually regenerates itself. So you can harvest the cork every 10, 12 years or so. And cork forests in the Iberian Peninsula, in Portugal and in Spain have a fantastic sort of ecosystem around them. The lynx and wild eagles and all sorts of wonderful things that live in and around. And also pigs go rooting for the for the acorns. And that ecosystem is a very important one. And it depends on us all using cork. So don't use plastic cork. 

Adam: Right. Oh, I was going to say, unfortunately, a lot of wines now have plastic. 

Jonathan: Try and go to the ones which are made out of proper traditional cork. And you're doing the planet a service by doing that. Another interesting thing about cork is that it's a fantastic insulator and it's actually used in the nose cones of spacecraft. 

Adam: So why? That is, I did read that and that was extraordinary that something as advanced as a spacecraft would be using cork. It seems unbelievable. 

Jonathan: Well, you know, millions of years of evolution have given the cork oak this way of resisting fire. So it's got tiny, tiny air pockets, minuscule microscopic air pockets in a non-flammable kind of medium. And that is an amazing insulator. And it's light, it chars on the outside and then flames just can't get through. 

Adam: And it's soundproofing isn't it? 

Jonathan: Yes, it's used in recording studios. 

Adam: Yes. Well, when I was 17, I took a fancy to corking my whole bedroom in cork tiles, which looked terrible to be honest *laughs*. It took my father years to pry it off the wall again.  

Jonathan: Was that in the seventies perhaps? 

Adam: Yes exactly. It was trendy then for a short period. 

Jonathan: Roman women used to wear cork-soled sandals, which you can still get, but so they didn't sort of walk in the poo and whatnot. But they're very good, very light, very insulating. 

Adam: One of the ones I suppose we should talk about, interesting, is cotton, because it has an interesting background, a natural background, but also one, of course, deeply connected with slavery and everything. 

Jonathan: So, you know, it was used in... South America among the Aztecs and so on to make armour actually. They made very, very thick cotton twill that they used as armour. And then it became fabulously valuable in the sort of 17th, 18th century especially, as a textile for our clothing. And unfortunately, as you say, it's got this link with slavery along with sugarcane and tobacco, these were the big crops that people grew, slave owners grew, in the Caribbean and in the southern states of North America, and then made the finished products in Britain that were then sold all over the world. 

Adam: And I mean, you have some nice, lovely illustrations here of actually the cotton on the plant and it's a puffball. It doesn't look real, actually.  

Jonathan: It's bonkers! It's an absolutely bonkers plant.  

Adam: Yes but didn't people, when they first saw it, thought they were actually little sheep or something? 

Jonathan: Yes *laughs* Well, the writers of the time, you know, they were all sort of knew that they would get a big audience if they made up some stuff so I'm not sure whether they really believed it. But certainly there was a textbook of the, I think it was the 17th century or early or late 16th century, where they sort of wrote, had diagrams of, because they thought it must be some kind of wool, they had diagrams showing little tiny sheep at the end of twigs on the plant *laughs* which supposedly would, you know, sort of the twigs would reach the ground in the evening and then the little sheep would, I don't know, wander off or something.  

Adam: No one actually ever believed this, you're saying?  

Jonathan: Well, I mean, no, well, I think it was created as a spin, but I think a lot of people did believe it, actually, in the same way that they believed in sea monsters and all those sort of naval stories that were brought back. And it was a very, yes, people believed all sorts of kind of nonsense and about where cotton came from. But the plant itself is very real and quite an odd one because you have these lovely sort of pale creamy flowers. It's sort of quite big, the size of a walnut kind of thing, you know. And then you get the seed pod which is absolutely bursting with all the fibre inside and the fibre's there to help the seeds carry on the wind. That's what the plant wants it for. But these burst open with this sort of great wodge of, I suppose, it looks like cotton wool. And it pretty much is cotton wool. And then the seeds are removed in a process called ginning. And the fibre that's left is then spun into thread. 

Adam: Amazing story. The last one I suppose I really want to talk about is something you started with saying, you know, engaging younger people in things they know like chocolate. Chocolate doesn't come from Tesco or Sainsbury's, it comes from the cacao plant. Now, tell me a bit about that, but specifically what surprised me, if I remember this correctly, you said the chocolate we know was invented in England, is that right? 

Jonathan: Well, the chocolate bar was invented by Fry back in the middle of the 19th century. And before that, people would have chocolate drinks, which were quite popular, especially at the time when coffee houses were very sort of blokey places. 

Adam: This is about the 1800s, is it?  

Jonathan: Yeah. Coffee houses were places where, you know, men would go. 

Adam: Yeah, they were they were risky places, they were sort of like pubs almost, you know, like... 

Jonathan: Yes, whereas families and women would go to chocolate houses. And some of those chocolate houses then became, you know, well-known clubs in London around Pall Mall and so on. They, but chocolate originally from Central America was a drink that would be taken quite bitter, mixed with maize, very, very nourishing, and was sometimes coloured with red dye, sort of symbolizing blood. And it was part of kind of rituals that they had where they, some of them were quite unpleasant rituals actually and then when it came, when chocolate came through the Spanish to Europe in the sort of 16th century, people immediately started adding sugar and milk and things to it, made it a lot more palatable. 

Adam: Right. So it wasn't just the chocolate bar, so we really made it into the sweet drink that everyone knows. Maybe not England, but Europe. 

Jonathan: Yes, and the and the chocolate bar was, that started in Britain. That was a British thing, with Fry and I think you can still get Frys chocolate? 

Adam: Yeah, I was going to say, I do see it every now and then. It's not as popular as Cadbury's and all the others, but one does still see it. 

Jonathan: You know, if you think about it from the plant's point of view, the reason that it's got this amazing fruit, which is about the size of a junior rugby ball, that grows very peculiarly on the stem of the plant, on the tree trunk, the reason it's got this amazing fruit is so that it can find something to be attracted to it that will disperse the seeds. That's why fruit is sweet. And the original thing that dispersed these fruit were probably sort of large, large mammals, which may not be around anymore. But the fruit is, the seeds are in this sort of sweet mush inside the cocoa pod. But your sort of big mammal would come along and gulp the whole thing down because it's lovely and sweet and then poo out the seeds somewhere else or spit them out because the seeds themselves are very bitter. And with coffee and chocolate and quite a few other things like apples even, the seeds are very bitter but the actual fruit is lovely and sweet. And the reason for that is so that something gobbles it but doesn't chew up the seeds. And then those get either spat out or pooed out together with a bit of fertiliser. 

Adam: Right, amazing. And also, I mean, we've talked a bit about the social aspects of a lot of these plants. Chocolate itself had a huge social impact, wasn't it? It was seen as sort of an alternative, wasn't it, to alcohol and sort of bringing people into the fold of the righteous living and away from terrible drinks. 

Jonathan: Yes, yeah, and it's a much gentler drink than coffee, which would have been quite a strong stimulant. Chocolate also has stimulants in it, but it's a bit more gentle. Yeah. 

Adam: So it's an interesting book. I know this is part of something very important in your life about reconnecting with nature and spreading that message. Are you optimistic that things are looking up in that way, that people are engaging more? 

Jonathan: I think, you know, I could make an argument for being pessimistic or optimistic, depending on the day, actually. But I do notice that young people have a kind of care for the environment that seems to be growing. And I think that's for obvious reasons, that they see it as their future. I'd say, essentially, I'm an optimist. And when you see plants growing and think about, the fact that they've been growing for zillions of years and will be growing for zillions of years, that is a sort of kind of optimistic thing. I think that young people are much more caring of the environment and sort of interested or I would say open to being interested. So if you kind of open their eyes to things, they're genuinely keen to know more and to do something. So all these schools projects that there are, all these things that the Woodland Trust actually does with schools are very, very valuable because I think with a lot of young people it just needs a little bit of a nudge and they're quite willing to go in a good direction. 

Adam: That's a great note to end on and we've, I was worried this morning it looked like it would pour down but we've been spared that. So Jon, thank you very much. 

Jonathan: Thank you. 

Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of 5 minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special. Or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk and we look forward to hearing from you. 

Did you know oak supports over 2,300 species of wildlife? Discover this and more fascinating facts in our episode dedicated to the nation's favourite tree. We join Trust experts, Jules and Kate, at Londonthorpe Woods, near Grantham, to find some fascinating growths on oak trees, known as galls, and learn why hunks of deadwood are so important. 

We then visit the star of the show and 'Lincolnshire's best kept secret' - the astonishing 1,000-year-old Bowthorpe Oak. It's one of 12 amazing oaks in the running for 2024 Tree of the Year. Which one will you vote for?

Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk

Transcript

You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. 

Adam: Well, in this podcast, we're looking at the Woodland Trust's Tree of the Year competition, which is all about oaks and is on a quest to find the nation's favourite one. And there are lots to choose from. There is the Elephant Oak in the New Forest, the Queen Elizabeth Oak in West Sussex, the Darwin Oak in Shropshire, the Capon Oak on the Scottish Borders and plenty of others to choose from across Wales, Somerset, County Fermanagh, Cheshire and well, lots of other places as well. And you can vote for your favourite oak by going to the shortlist of them at the voting site woodlandtrust.org.uk/vote, so that is woodlandtrust.org.uk/vote and we'll repeat that again at the end of this podcast.  

Well, today I'm going to see one of the oaks in contention for the Tree of the Year, the Bowthorpe Oak in Bourne, in Lincolnshire, a tree which has a hollow interior and had previously, that interior had been fitted with seats and had been used as a dining room for 20 people in the past, 20 people! It must have been an enormous oak and that's not a practice I think that's recommended these days. Well, certainly not. But nonetheless it's a great oak which has played a great big part in the local landscape and is much loved, not just in the UK but attracts plenty of visitors from abroad as well. Now, oaks have an amazingly important part in our culture and in days gone by were, I think, central in Druid folklore, for instance, in fact one amazing fact I have learnt making this podcast is that the name Druid comes from druer, the Celtic for oak for the word oak and wid means to know, so Druid means oak-knower, so there's a good fact for you. Anyway, enough of me. I'm off to meet some people who know all about oaks and unusually I am not starting by a tree. So, unusually, we're starting in a car and I'm joined by two women from the Woodland Trust. So first of all, introduce yourselves. 

Kate: I'm Kate Lewthwaite. I am citizen science manager at the Woodland Trust. 

Adam: Wonderful. And our driver for the day is... 

Jules: Hi, I'm Jules Acton. I'm a fundraiser with the Woodland Trust. 

Adam: So we're going to look at a few oaks today, one of which is actually in the running to be the Tree of the Year, and you can vote on that still and I'll give you details a little later on on how to do that. But first of all, you were telling me that you have a little present for me. I always like to start the day with a little present. 

Jules: It's always good to start the day with a little present, I think and here's a little one for you.  

Adam: Oh, and it's wrapped up in tissue paper. It's an early Christmas present. How very good. So what is that? OK so do you want to describe it?  

Jules: OK so it's a little, it looks like a little woody marble really, doesn't it? And it's got a little tiny hole you can see just there and some extra other little tiny holes. That is an oak marble gall. 

Adam: An oak marble...ghoul? 

Jules: Gall. 

Adam: And how do you spell that? 

Jules: G A double L. 

Adam: G A double L and what what is it? 

Jules: So this is this is incredibly special, so this has in many ways changed human culture, this little tiny thing. Certainly amplified human culture. So this is a gall, which is made by, and it's made by a little tiny wasp. And the wasp lays a an egg in the in the bud of the tree of the oak tree. And it makes the oak change and it sort of changes chemically. It's really strange. And it makes the the oak form this little marble shaped thing on the end of a twig. And that becomes home for the gall wasps' larvae, and so that the little larva grows up inside it and it has this its own special home, but it's also full of lovely food. So that's interesting itself and that it's it's it's it's got this sort of little little home but it what's particularly interesting human, from the human perspective is that these kind of galls were used to make ink for about 1,000 years and the the kind of ink that they made, it was used, I think, until the middle of the 20th century. So kind of until quite recently. So Shakespeare's plays were written on oak gall ink, Newton's theories, the American Declaration of Independence, huge amounts of historic documents. 

Adam: So just trying to understand that, Shakespeare's plays were written on ink created by this thing? 

Jules: By a gall like, yeah, this kind of thing by by a gall. Yeah. But you can you can still now you can make gall gall ink from these little little things here. So it in many ways it it amplified, this little tiny thing we've got here, amplified the whole course of human history, culture, etcetera in our part of the world. 

Adam: Quite an extraordinary place to start our journey today. Wonderful. So, OK, so we're, yes, we'll put that away nice and safe and we'll start our journey. Kate, do you just want to start by telling me what we're going to do when we get out of the car? 

Kate: We're going to have a walk round Londonthorpe Wood, which is one of the Woodland Trust sites, one of our thousand woods that we own and we're going to see an oak tree that Jules has found for us to go and talk about. 

Adam: Fantastic. All right, well, let's go. 

Jules: Well, well so we've just seen some amazing galls on what looks like quite a young tree, it's probably about 30-years-old, would you say, Kate, this one?  

Kate: Maybe, yes. 

Jules: And, yeah, they're they're bright red and they're on the underside of the oak leaves and they look a bit like cherries and  

Adam: I was going to say, the one you showed me was all grey, you gave me an old rubbish one, didn't you? This is what they look like when they're on the tree. It's red, it does look like a cherry. 

Jules: Yeah, this is a particularly stunning one, isn't it? And they they are literally called cherry galls. And they again 

Adam: They're called cherry balls? 

Jules: Cherry galls.  

Adam: Galls, cherry galls. 

Jules: And they're about the same size as the marble gall that we saw earlier. And I believe they are also caused by a gall wasp. And but what is good about these kind of galls is that they're relatively easy to spot. So once you get your eye in, you start seeing them everywhere, so it's a really lovely thing to start doing, you know, with children or just looking yourself when you're out on a on a walk, you know. 

Adam: Wow. So that shows that a wasp has formed that? 

Jules: Yeah 

Adam: And these are non-stinging wasps, aren't they? 

Jules: These are non-stinging wasps. They're teeny, teeny, tiny wasps. They don't look like your your black, you know the big black and and and yellow stripey things that come at your ice cream, not that there's anything wrong with those wasps, they're lovely too. 

Adam: Inside that gall is baby wasps? Is that? 

Jules: There will be a little larvae inside there. 

Adam: And that's what they're using as as food, or is it? 

Jules: Yes, that's their home but it's also their food source. And I'm not at some point in the year the the the little tiny wasp, once it's developed, will will kind of drill its way out and then be set free to the to the wider world. But I think we'll find some other kinds of galls, actually. So it might be worth us moving on a little bit and just see if we can. 

Adam: OK. Moving on, yeah, that's politely telling me to be quiet and start walking. 

Jules: Oh sorry *laughs* 

Adam: Sorry, there's a, oh it's a tractor going up and down the field next to us. So that's what the noise is in the background. But the fact that we we sort of just held a branch here and and Kate was already, you know, lots of wildlife, jumped onto her jumper, does raise the issue about how many, how much wildlife an oak supports. And I was hear some fantastic number. Just tell me a little bit about that. 

Jules: We know that the oak supports more than 2,300 species and that they could be species that that feed off the oak, that live inside it, that live on, on, on or or around it, that you know they perch in it. So species using the the oak tree in all different ways and they are, they they they're birds and mammals, they're lichen, fungi, invertebrates. All sorts of different kinds of species, but what's important, I think, is that they're only the species we've countered, and I think there are a huge number more that we just haven't got around to counting would, would you agree, Kate? You probably know more about this than me. 

Kate: Yes, definitely. And some of those species can live on other types of tree, and some are only found on oak trees, so they're particularly important. And of course, we haven't started talking about the value of deadwood and all those wonderful rare beetles whose larvae live in the wood. So there's lots to be said about that as well. 

Adam: I'll tell you what, let's just walk all further away from this tractor, which sounds closer than it is, and you can tell me about the importance of the deadwood. 

Jules: Well we might see some spectacular deadwood. 

Adam: Oh well, we might see some, OK. OK, so we have stopped by some deadwood and you're going to explain why, is that right? Right. OK. Kate is going to explain. Well, why have we stopped here, Kate? 

Kate: Because deadwood is absolutely fantastic and we have a history of a nation of being a little bit too tidy and taking it away and using it for firewood and other things, when actually it's an amazing habitat in its own right. I'm just looking at the variety of rot holes, of larval galleries where the insect larvae have fed, and then the adults emerged. And it is like a whole habitat in its own right. And actually deadwood is really rare. Much of the woodland in the UK is not felt to be in good ecological condition and one of the reasons for that is a lack of deadwood. So it's incredibly important habitat and we don't have enough of it. 

Jules: One of the things I didn't understand until recently and Kate, you might know more about this than me, but there's there's different kinds of deadwood. So if you have, it's important to have deadwood in different formats, so standing deadwood so when the old tree is still standing upright, and and deadwood that's lying down on the ground. 

Adam: Right. What what why, so it matters if it's vertical or horizontal? 

Jules: It it it matters that you have both kinds. 

Adam: And why? 

Jules: Because, I feel like I'm at the edge of my knowledge, so it's because about it's about different habitats, isn't it Kate, is that right? 

Kate: Yeah, I think so. And the the wood will rot at a different rate. It's quite ironic because the one we're standing at now is actually at a 45° angle. So it's neither vertical nor nor horizontal. And of course, oak trees are absolutely full of of tannins, which I think are the same compound you find in the oak galls that enable the writing. But they also mean, you know this huge, great piece of deadwood here could be around for hundreds of years because it won't, it will rot very, very slowly. 

Jules: And and one of the great things is when you have deadwood right next to living wood as well, because that creates all these different conditions which will suit different kinds of invertebrates and fungi as well, so that that's really important to have this collection of of different kinds of wood in in you know in a similar area.  

Adam: Excellent. OK, we've, we've stopped. We've stopped Kate, and you've got very excited. 

Kate: It happens quite easily when I'm out in nature. And there's a whole pile of knopper galls on the floor here, and they're black. You know, they've dropped off the tree. They've done their job. The the wasp has flown off. But I wondered if we could, I've no idea if this is gonna work, I wondered if we could actually try writing with them because they are oozing black. 

Adam: Oh my, right, this is so exciting. OK, so this is like this is a modern day Shakespeare. Have you got? OK. The line is to be or not to be. I see. Hold on a second. So you've picked it up, right, I I think you might do something to it.  

Kate: Well, I might have to. Shall we see, shall we see if it just? 

Adam: Right, but you're not, you're just gonna? 

Jules: Ohh there we go. 

Kate: There is a brown ooze and it's I think it's not just from the path. 

Adam: I was going to say, it's not just mud. 

Kate: It's not. It's this kind of coffee colour. 

Adam: Wow, OK. And you are writing to be or not to not be. 

Kate: I am writing to be or not to be, I I don't know if I break it open a bit more if you might get. Ohh. This is gonna stain my nails, isn't it? 

Adam: OK. Ohh dear, don't worry I'll I'll pay for the the visit to to the nail parlour. 

Kate: *laughs* I shouldn't worry. Yes, we are actually getting some. 

Adam: To be or not to be. Well, I'm sure that would have actually been mixed with water or something. 

Kate: Most likely 

Adam: Or some alcohol and put into a quill, but that does what hold on, let me just rub it, see. Well, I can confirm that is not just what we have now created ink. Proper exciting. 

Kate: Absolutely. 

Adam: Thank you very much. Well, we're heading away from our ink gall-bearing oaks to see the main attraction of the day, which is a short drive from here. It is the Bowthorpe Oak, one of the contenders for Tree of the Year. It is rooted in a grass paddock behind the 17th century farmhouse nearby. In 2002, the Tree Council, in celebration of the Golden Jubilee of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, designated the Bowthorpe Oak one of 50 great British trees. One of the 50 greatest British trees in recognition of its place in our national heritage. And I'm meeting the current custodian of the oak who runs the farm in which it lives. 

George: My name is George Blanchard and I am one of the family members here that farm at Bowthorpe Park Farm. 

Adam: Right. And you have, we're standing by this famous tree. People come here to see this tree? 

George: They do, yeah, we get them from all over the world. A lot of lot of UK, obviously, Europe and America, we get a lot of interest from America. 

Adam: Well, tell me a bit about this tree. 

George: So this tree, the Bowthorpe Oak, is the UK's largest girthed oak tree. It's absolutely stunning as you can, as you can see, fully in leaf at the moment it looks amazing and yeah, that's it's claim to fame. 

Adam: Right it's wide the widest I think it was the second widest tree in the UK. Is that right? 

George: We know it's the largest largest oak tree in in terms of it's it's the most complete, you know. So I think there could be wider ones, but not quite as complete. 

Adam: Not quite as good as your tree! 

George: Yeah, exactly. This is yeah *laughs* 

Adam: No, I agree. And and is is this a family farm? Is this? 

George: It is yeah. 

Adam: Right so you've grown up, you've you played under the boughs of this tree. 

George: I have. Yeah, yeah and and inside it as well. Remember it is hollow so. 

Adam: Right. Yeah. So tell me a bit about the sort of the folklore and the stories around the tree. 

George: Yeah so oak trees naturally start to hollow at around 500 years old, but this one was hollowed even further, back in the 1700s by a chap called George Pauncefort and 

Adam: It was, it was, it wasn't naturally hollow, he hollowed it out? 

George: They they do, they do naturally hollow, but he hollowed it even further. And you can tell this when you're looking inside it, because the the sides are quite flat. It's very unnatural. You can see so the hollowing has been done by by tools. And so he also put benches around the inside of it and a and a doorway on on the west side and even even sort of paved the flooring but and and put a pigeon loft in the crown, which I think, I think back in the day in the 1700s, if you had a pigeon loft in your tree, you were somebody *laughs*. 

Adam: Ohh really that's like Lamborghini time, right? OK, forget your Lamborghinis, I've got a pigeon loft in my tree.  

George: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And he would have parties in there as as you would, wouldn't you? 

Adam: Well, yeah, of course. I mean, you've gone to all that trouble. Was he a member of the family? Was this being passed down?  

George: No, no, there's no there's no relation, no relation. We've we've only been farming here since the sort of late 40s. 

Adam: Right. OK, amazing. Amazing stuff. And I mean, and it looks in fairly, I mean as you say, it's in good leaf, it's in also just it looks to the untutored eye in good nick as well, generally healthy. 

George: It is yeah. Really good really good condition currently. We lost a a limb off the back and that was that was quite concerning because it's it's quite dramatic when they shed a shed a limb, but it is what they they naturally do. We have an inspection done on the tree annually, but at the time of losing the limb, we were, we were quite concerned. So we upped the type of inspection we had done. And they were quite, quite invasive, I say invasive it was, you know, using really small drills, to see if there's any adverse rotting in any places. But no, they were really happy with the condition of the tree and and how healthy it is so other than any sort of man-made issue, I don't see why it shouldn't carry on growing as it is. 

Adam: And it's amazing because, I mean, you know, it's taken us quite a while to get here and people come here all this way just to see this tree. 

George: They do, yes, yes, seek it out, we call it Lincolnshire's best kept secret. 

Adam: Right. Amazing. From all over the world? 

George: They do yeah yeah. From all over the world. Like I say, a lot of a lot of Europe people come from Europe and a lot of people come from America. We find that the two two types of people from America, those that really appreciate it and those that just can't get their head around it because it's nowhere near as big as their redwoods *laughs* 

Adam: Right? Call this big. Call this big, you should see... 

George: Exactly. Yeah, call this big, we've got bigger. 

Adam: Yeah OK. Brilliant well thank you very much, I will take a tour round it. 

George: Thank you. 

Adam: So one of the other, now I have to say, first of all, let me have a look at the front front, we've taken a book with us because Jules has published a book called Oaklore and you've brought it out here because there is a poem about this oak in your book. 

Jules: There is and it was written well over 100 years ago by a poet called John Clare and but the interesting thing is when he wrote this poem this would have already been an ancient tree, so it's it's quite an interesting record that he was standing in awe, looking at this tree, just like we are now really. 

Adam: Right, right. So when did he write this? 

Jules: I don't have the exact date in front of me, but I know it's over well over 100 years ago. 

Adam: OK, well over 100 years and you're going to put on your best poetry reading voice. 

Jules: *laughs* I'll have a go. 

Adam: Go on, give us, I always love, I mean, we did this in the Sherwood Forest podcast where we took a book about Sherwood Forest and a book about a tree to the tree it's about. So we're now going to read a poem about the tree we're standing by. So this poem by John Clare. 

Jules: And it's called Burthorp Oak. So here we go. Burthorp Oak.  

Old noted oak! I saw thee in a mood 
Of vague indifference; and yet with me 
Thy memory, like thy fate, hath lingering stood 
For years, thou hermit, in the lonely sea 
Of grass that waves around thee! Solitude 
Paints not a lonelier picture to the view, 
Burthorp! than thy one melancholy tree 
Age-rent, and shattered to a stump. Yet new 
Leaves come upon each rift and broken limb 
With every spring; and Poesy's visions swim 
Around it, of old days and chivalry; 
And desolate fancies bid the eyes grow dim 
With feelings, that earth's grandeur should decay, 
And all its olden memories pass away. 

Adam: Brilliant. That's that's a lovely poem to read by by the tree. 

Jules: I think it's quite interesting that he says age rent and shattered to a stump so it it sort of suggests that the tree is in a worse condition than now, wouldn't you say so Kate? And it looks like it might be happier now than when Clare saw it. 

Kate: I was just looking at it and I mean it looks like some of those shoots have put on a good foot of growth this year. So that's the amazing thing about ancient oaks is they they so-called retrench. So all the limbs, the limbs drop off, they become shorter and and and wider and then they might all just start to sort of grow again and it sort of goes through these amazing cycles. Certainly there's a lot more vegetation on it than when I last saw it 15 years ago. It looks fabulous. 

Adam: And also a lot of oaks grow very tall. This isn't so tall it it is wider, isn't it? It's a squatter tree. Is that because it's actually not had to compete, because it's actually in a field by itself isn't it? It's not competing for light with lots of other trees. 

Kate: Yes, maybe. And also trees like this do, the really ancient trees they do tend to become short and squat and it's part, and hollow, and that's part of their survival strategy is that they'll shed some of these top branches and they'll, they'll shorten and and widen. 

Adam: Right. I mean, oaks are really important, aren't they in the UK especially, they're part of the national identity, really, aren't they? And and a lot of that's got to do with folklore, which I know, Jules, you've written about as well. 

Jules: Yeah, I mean the the oak has been part of our culture well, as far as as, as as far as we know as far as written records go back and even we we believe that the the Druids themselves were very also very interested in oak trees and they worshipped in oak groves and they particularly worshipped mistletoe, the rare mistletoe that came off off oaks. Of course, we don't have written records on the the Druids, so we don't, we know very little about them, but that's certainly what we believe. And then it's been threaded throughout our our history and our culture that the oaks right up to the present day, you know people are still writing about it and painting painting oak trees and you've got wonderful ambassadors like Luke Adam Hawker who is very inspired by oak trees and goes out drawing them. 

Adam: Why do you, I mean I don't suppose there's an answer, but do you have a take on why we've landed on the oak as such a a central part of our mythology and identity? 

Jules: Well, I I think I think all of our native trees will play a role in that in our folklore and our mythology and and our culture, I think the oak is is is a particularly impressive tree isn't it, especially when you're standing next to a tree like this that that is so majestic and and you know the words like majestic, kingly, queenly, grand, they they just sort of pop into your head. There is just something incredibly awe-inspiring about the oak tree. And then, as we've we've seen before it, it just has such a huge impact on our ecology as well. So I think I think it's just something it it does a lot of heavy lifting culturally and also naturally the oak tree. 

Adam: And almost every pub is called the Royal Oak. 

Jules: Yes, yes, I think there's at the last count there's well over 400 pubs called the Royal Oak. 

Adam: And you know that personally by visiting them?  

Jules: Well, I've yes, I've I've tried to count them all. I've still got some way to go *both laugh* 

Adam: Yeah. OK, OK, alright. Well, it's it's a good project to be having. 

Jules: So there's an interesting story behind the that name the Royal Oak. And the reason the pubs are called that relates back to a very special oak tree, the Boscobel Oak. Now we have to go back in history a few hundred years. And it takes us back to the Battle of Worcester and the son of Charles I was in in battle with the with, with, with the parliamentarians, and he took a drubbing at the Battle of Worcester, and he needed to escape. And he reached this place called Boscobel House, and he was going to hide out in, in that house and try and escape the the soldiers, the the enemy. But it was very insecure and one of his advisers suggested he, instead of hiding in the house, he hid in the oak tree. So they spent the whole night in the oak tree, which subsequently called called the Boscobel Oak, and this and and and they escaped capture and the king spent the whole night with this chap called William Careless as he as he was called  

Adam: William Careless? 

Jules: William Careless who turned out not to be careless at all because he actually saved the king. And apparently the king sort of curled up with his head on Careless' knee and and he, they they got away. They got away with it and because of that you know that then obviously led into a whole series of events which ultimately led to the restoration of the monarchy and said King became Charles II and and because of that there was an enormous celebration of oak trees. So they they they were raised in status even further. So we've got all the Royal Oak pubs which are effectively commemorating that occasion. But there's also a great day of celebration was declared. It was the 29 May. I think that was the King's birthday, and it was 29 May. And it became oak apple day. And that was when we would all when people across the land would would gather and and celebrate the restoration of the monarchy. And one of the things they used to do was they people would bring branches with oak apples, which is another of those amazing galls. And the more oak apples you had on your branches, the better the better you were, you know, the, the, the cooler you were at the party. And if you didn't bring oak branches with you, apparently people would be mean to you and they'd whip you with nettles.  

Adam: Blimey, this story took a turn! 

Jules: Yeah, these parties got these these parties got quite out of hand. I actually think we should bring these days back. Not, no nettles. But I think actually wouldn't it be great if we spent every 29 May celebrating our amazing oak trees and and and also the wider nature around us. 

Adam: Yeah, we've missed it this year, but I'm putting a date in for us to meet at a Royal Oak somewhere between us on 29 May. 

Jules: Yeah, let's do it. Let's party. Yeah. And maybe drink a glass of oak flavoured wine or whisky. 

Adam: OK, never had that, but I'm I'm up for it. I'm up for it. Kate, this is also important because this is in the running for Tree of the Year. 

Kate: Absolutely. So the Woodland Trust hosts the UK Tree of the Year competition, and this year we've focused on oak trees.  

Adam: So so they're all oaks. 

Kate: All of them are oak trees this year, so we've got 12 candidates from across the UK and the wonderful Bowthorpe Oak here is one of them. It's my local tree so I'm a little bit biased, but these trees all tell amazing stories. We've got one that's shaped like an elephant in the New Forest. We've got one that has survived being in the middle of pine plantation in the Highlands of Scotland and we've got one that's sadly under threat from a bypass in Shrewsbury. So we've got some amazing stories from these trees and the public can vote. So voting closes on the 21 October 2024 and you can go to the Woodland Trust website so it's woodlandtrust.org.uk/vote. 

Adam: There were some cow noises just as you said that in the background! Just to prove that we're in a farm *all laugh*. 

Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you are listening. And do give us a review and a rating. If you want to find out more about our woods and those that are close to you, check out the Woodland Trust website. Just head to the visiting woods pages. Thank you. 

Accompanied by experts Adam and Louise and a 100-year-old-book, our latest episode takes us to Nottinghamshire's Sherwood Forest to visit two astonishing trees. The Parliament Oak and Major Oak have each stood through several centuries and have fascinating stories attached to them. Equally astonishing is the fact that magnificent oaks like these don't have legal protection like our built heritage. Join us as we learn the magical lifesaving strategy of ancient oaks that could make them immortal, how penny coins can tell us about the health of a tree, whether Robin Hood really lived in Sherwood Forest and what you can do to help earn living legends like these the protection they deserve.

Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk

Transcript 

You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. 

Adam Shaw: Today I'm off to Sherwood Forest, home, famously, of course, of Robin Hood. The name Sherwood Forest actually comes from its status as a shire and the word shire was turned into sher...wood of Nottinghamshire, therefore Sherwood. Anyway, I've come to visit two trees, in particular: the Parliament Oak and the Major Oak. But before we get to that a lot more details on why those trees are so important later on, but first of all, of course I have to meet my two guides for the day. 

Louise Hackett: I'm Louise Hackett. I'm the treescape lead for Sherwood. I manage essentially a partnership project across the landscape of what was the historic Sherwood Forest. So that extends from Nottingham up to Worksop and Retford. 

Adam Shaw: Fantastic. So huge portfolio and I'm also joined by another Adam. So you are? 

Adam Cormack: Adam Cormack and I head up the campaigning team at the Woodland Trust. 

Adam Shaw: Fantastic. And we are standing in a beautiful field. I've forgotten to bring my suntan lotion so I could have a red bald head by the end of today, which is very naughty, but we are standing by, well, I'm going to start with, it's called a palace, it may not be what you quite imagine this to be. I'll try and put this on my social media and the Woodland Trust social media so you know what this looks like, but who just wants to explain to me a bit about where we are? Adam's being thrust towards the microphone. 

Adam Cormack: So we're in a field in the middle of Nottinghamshire in a place called Clipstone and we're by King John's Palace, which is a few remaining walls from an old royal hunting lodge that's about 900 years old. So this dates back to that time when Sherwood was a royal hunting forest. So it's called King John's Palace. But you have to kind of remove that idea of a palace from your mind as you're saying, Adam, it's basically a few remaining walls. 

Adam Shaw: Yeah. 

Adam Cormack: Which I you know, I can still still find it interesting. Kind of imagine what life was like here years ago. 

Adam Shaw: Yeah. No, it is. I mean, yes, I mean look, it is a few remaining walls, but it is beautiful. It's you know it's it's it's not like a a breeze block or anything like that. OK. So we've we've talked about history already a couple of times and the only thing I know about Sherwood Forest and I think I'll be joined by lots of people here is Robin Hood. So Robin Hood was here. Apart from Robin Hood, what else is the historical context of this place? 

Louise Hackett: So yes, as as Adam was just saying with the area subject to forest law, which is what made this area a royal hunting forest, the vert and the venison was protected for virtue of the king and that resulted in an incredible landscape that was a a rich mosaic of oak birch woodland, lowland heathland, acid grassland and it covered a huge swathe and it was incredibly dynamic landscape with a long history as as a hunting forest that would have looked very different through the years. 

Adam Shaw: So this, it was protected because the king wanted to ride around and catch wild boar and all of that sort of stuff.  

Louise Hackett: Absolutely. 

Adam Shaw: And what sort of period are we talking about? 

Louise Hackett:  So we're talking from roughly the 1100s onwards or or earlier than that even, it has a long history. 

Adam Shaw: Now also on the car journey here from, you were very kind you picked me up from the station we're quite a way from the station, but you were, I was surprised you also said oh look we've been we've been in the forest all this time. So I often think of oh, we get to a forest and there's a bit of woodland, but we've been driving half an hour, I don't know, 40 minutes or so, and throughout that time we've been in Sherwood Forest. 

Louise Hackett:  Absolutely. And I think this is one of the things that I think when people say the word forest, people think of wall to wall trees. But as we were just saying that actually what a forest refers to is an area subject to forest law. And these would have been complex mosaics of lots of different habitats, primarily open habitat. That's what would have made it such an enjoyable environment for the king to ride through. 

Adam Shaw: Yeah, cause you can't ride through the actual trees too much. 

Louise Hackett: Absolutely, no. 

Adam Shaw: OK. And a couple of times, you've already mentioned a new phrase to me. Woodland law?  

Louise Hackett: Forest law.  

Adam Shaw: Forest law. Never heard of that. What is forest law? 

Louise Hackett: So so this was essentially the the a separate law system that applied to hunting forests, and there were numerous hunting forests across England. So this was a separate law system, as I say, that protected the vert and the venison. So anything green and growing and the the animals, primarily those that you'd hunt. 

Adam Shaw: Right. Protected it for the king.  

Louise Hackett: For the king. And his friends.  

Adam Shaw: OK, but it has so, right. OK, fair enough. But it's interesting, isn't it? Because you know, that's really part of the aristocracy and all, you know, quite problematic in lots of social ways. But actually it has an environmental benefit - because it was saved for the king, it happens to be safe for everyone else and nature itself. 

Louise Hackett: Absolutely. So so there will have been small communities that lived in these areas, but they would have had very strict rules as to what access they had to certain areas of the land and and what they had access to and and but but all of that defined really what this looked like as a natural landscape and it it really protected quite a special wood pasture habitat. 

Adam Shaw: Wonderful. Now also Adam, you are clutching a very exciting looking book, proper old big bound book called Sherwood Forest by Joseph Rodgers. So how old is this book for a start? 

Adam Cormack: So this book is just over a century old. 

Adam Shaw: Wow. OK, proper old book. And this is all about Sherwood Forest. So how how's it split out this book? I mean, it's a it's a huge tome. So was it by tree or by person or what? 

Adam Cormack: Yeah, it's it's a hefty tome, isn't it? It's it's so it's a kind of miscellany of Sherwood Forest really, so it covers the important old trees of Sherwood Forest. There's a little chapter on the Major Oak, which is a tree that we'll see today, a chapter on the Parliament Oak. And there's a chapter on where we're standing now, King John's Palace. So I thought I might just actually read out the first sentence because I think it's a good kind of encapsulation. So remember, this is written sort of 100 years ago, so 'Such a feeling of quiet dwells in this little sleepy village consisting of a few labourers' cottages and farmhouses with straight canals along the meadows in place of the pleasant river, with the golden ragwort flourishing on its banks. That, from its appearance, a stranger would gather no idea of its ancient importance, for there is nothing to indicate the rude state which must have at one time here been maintained.' 

Adam Shaw: Well, look, it's a nice day we're standing by this palace. That's not why we've come here though. So just give me an idea of the trip we're going to take today. 

Adam Cormack: So we're going to go and look at two really important trees of Sherwood Forest now. We're gonna go and look at the Parliament Oak, which is just five minutes up the road from here and there is links to King John's Palace. So we'll talk about that when we're at the tree. And then we're going to go to the Major Oak and let Lou just talk about the Major Oak. 

Adam Shaw: OK, that's all to come. Bit of walking involved first though. So as we walk towards our first big tree of the day, the so-called Parliament Oak, I'm going to read from the other Adam's 100-year-old book about this oak. I'm going to be very careful so I don't trip over and ruin this book which has been looked after for over a century. 'It has been stated with some probability of truth that King John, while hunting in the forest, was informed by a messenger of a revolt of the Welsh and of an insurrection in the north of England that he hastily summoned a parliament to meet under this tree, and that it owes its name to that incident. On another account, it connects it with Edward I, who, when on his way to Scotland in 1290, summoned a parliament to meet at Clipton, at Clipstone, sorry, so it has no idea why it's called the Parliament Oak, so it could be to do with King John or it could be to do with Edward I. But it is called the Parliament Oak. And here it is in this beautiful book with a drawing or engraving of it, it looks like a sort of split oak. I'm just trying to see how accurate it is. Ohh, there it is. I'm being, I'm looking at the wrong blooming thing. There we are. So we can see it in the book and I can see it in real life. And what a wonderful, what a wonderful book. And what a wonderful place to read out that paragraph. Alright, we're resting, I just feel this is so apt, we're resting our book about the Parliament Oak on the Parliament Oak and and Lou it's I've lost the place. 

Louise Hackett: Which page? 

Adam Cormack: 197. 

Adam Shaw: If you're following along at home on the few versions of this 100-year-old book that might be out there, it's page 197 *laughs*. I feel like I'm leading a congregation. If you turn now, that's in your prayer books, past the Shambles Oak. There we are, the Parliament Oak. So Lou. Did I miss out something important you wanted to read about this? 

Louise Hackett: I just wanted to point out on the illustration, because I think on on some of the old illustrations you can see that there's two, what we call functional units, so one of the incredible things ancient oak trees do is they can separate themselves into functional units, which is a fantastic lifesaving strategy, which I I'll happily talk about more later. But on a lot of the old illustrations you you see what essentially are two functional units remaining of the tree. 

Adam Shaw: So just to be explained, a functional unit is what looks like two trees, but you're actually saying this is one tree which looks like two trees, but you're calling them functional units. 

Louise Hackett: Absolutely. So as it's aged, the tree has essentially segmented itself. And these these segments are what was once one tree starts to split out into multiple segments, which generally is associated with a large limb, but it means that if you have, if you lose one of your limbs and it's quite a catastrophic loss, you could lose that functional unit at no risk to your other sections, so it's quite a good lifesaving strategy. So we so in a lot of the old images you see these two sections and because we've got two trees still standing here today, people think that they are those two fragments. But but in fact it's only one remaining and the way we can identify that is you can see on the left-hand side of this illustration, you can see a small burr forming. That's what I'm resting th b book on, so it has grown quite considerably this burr since since the illustration. 

Adam Shaw: Right. Wow. It's a little bump 100 years ago, it's now a proper table. 

Louise Hackett: Absolutely. Yeah. So this is what's still standing and the piece of deadwood on the ground next to us... 

Adam Shaw: OK, let's have a look. Oh, OK. Yes, that was that whole tree. 

Louise Hackett:  It was the section that joined those two functional units, so it was... 

Adam Shaw: Right. And what's happened to that other functional unit then, that's gone? 

Louise Hackett: So that's been lost. Yes, absolutely. So so what, what you can't see in this image is essentially it was, it was a huge tree at at its kind of height at its kind when it was at its kind of fullest, 9.5 metres in circumference, so it was a large tree and it would have been completely hollow at that at that point. And and that's when basically the the as the deadwood decayed and just those two functional units remained and and now just one. But what's magical with this tree is that you'd never know that to look at it. Today without these kind of past illustrations and photographs because what's actually happened is it's precluded fully around this this remaining fragment, so it looks like a 100-year-old oak. But actually it's potentially 900 years old. 

Adam Shaw: Wow. That's extraordinary, isn't it? So, yeah, well, that is extraordinary. I was going to say, how old is it, so we're looking at a 900-year-old oak here. 

Louise Hackett: But it's it's done this magical thing of having gone back to a younger stage of its life, we we quite often think of trees of of being young, mature, old and then dying. But actually what they have the capability of, which is what makes ancient trees so special is, they can go back to an earlier life stage. So this is now a mature tree and there is nothing preventing this tree going through that full lifespan all over again and becoming a huge hollow ancient of the future. It was already in ancient but... 

Adam Shaw: Yeah, well that's extraordinary. So really, it might never die because it just rejuvenates, really.  

Louise Hackett: Absolutely. 

Adam Shaw: An amazing thing. Well, that is brilliant. And Adam is also standing here and we're talking about history, Adam. And we're talking about the history of this tree, but that feeds into quite an important bit of work you're doing about history in general. 

Adam Cormack: Yes, so the Woodland Trust has been running a campaign called Living Legends for the past couple of years, which is about improving protection for trees like Parliament Oak, but other very old and very special trees. So we're calling them heritage trees. So people have been campaigning for protection of these trees for a very long time,  for decades. But the last couple of years is where we've pulled that all together into a campaign called Living Legends. We've got a petition that's been supported by over 85,000 people calling for legal protection for very old and special trees. 

Adam Shaw: So don't they have, I mean I always thought trees were protected anyway and you're not allowed to cut down a tree even in your own garden, because the local council object? 

Adam Cormack: Well, I think it's just I think there's a sort of I think what you're talking about there is the sort of day-to-day protection that trees have from our feelings and attitudes towards them, which is the sort of social contract that we have that you don't just cut down trees. And that's the thing that protects trees sort of day in day out. There are policies and a few legal instruments, felling licences, tree preservation orders, that sort of together, provide trees with a basic level of protection, but there's nothing to recognise the value of this tree, the Parliament Oak, so 900 years or maybe even a bit older than that, in the way that we were just at King John's Palace, so we were there we were looking at a kind of heritage asset that was sort of similar sort of age, really, grade listed has legal protection. It's recognised for its value and for what it can tell us about the past and tell us about ourselves and what we think should happen is that trees should just have the same level of protection. Not all of them, just the oldest and most special. 

Adam Shaw: So this 900-year-old tree doesn't have any historical protection compared to the 900-year-old odd palace, which does have historical protection. Is that fair? 

Adam Cormack: You just said it Adam, no it doesn't. But that's the case for all of our really old and special trees. Sorry we've just got a tractor going past. So you can, we're here, I mean, the tree is just, you can probably hear the cars going past, it's on the corner of a road, the corner of a farm track. And I think that just shows you that these trees aren't all in really safe, secluded places, they're they're there in day-to-day life, on road verges, parks, gardens, sometimes in woodlands and farms. 

Adam Shaw: Yeah. It's odd, isn't it? Because it is a part of the British history, not just natural history. But, you know, history of parliament, of democracy, of kings and queens. And yet it it doesn't have any legal protection that if it was made of bricks, it would have. But because it's actually not made of bricks, it doesn't have. 

Adam Cormack: That that's it really. So I think we, you know, we protect the things that we've made as human beings. So we protect the buildings, the artworks, the things that we've created but so these old trees should just have a similar level of protection. It's great that we protect all those other important things scheduled ancient monuments, battlefields, works of art. Trees just fit into the same category. 

Adam Shaw: And if listeners to our podcast believe in what you're saying and want to support that, how do they do that? 

Adam Cormack: So listeners can go to the Woodland Trust website or just go to Google and type Living Legends campaign and they'll go straight to our petition and they could be the 85,001 person to sign our petition although hopefully it will have gone up a bit by the time people listen to this. 

Adam Shaw: So, Living Legends, that's what you're looking for. The Woodland Trust's Living Legends campaign, and you can add your name to that. 

Adam Cormack: That's right. And and I think there's one other thing to add to that, which is that over the last six months, we've been successful in securing a private members' bill for heritage trees. So we're actually on that journey now towards legislative protection for some of these trees. Baroness Young has introduced a private members' bill, so this is a heritage trees bill and it introduces this designation of heritage trees, so it's not law yet. It's got quite a long way to go before it does become law, but you can go online you can Google that too, and you can read it for yourself. It's only five pages long it's quite short, it just talks about bringing in legal protection for very old and special trees. 

Adam Shaw: Of course, and and that needs government support, we've got a new government, so who knows what will happen to that. But I I know you'll be hoping that actually gets pushed forward.  

Adam Cormack: We will yeah. 

Adam Shaw: OK, well, while everyone is going to that petition to sign their names, we can walk on to another tree you wanted to show me. Where's that? 

Adam Cormack: So we're gonna go to the Major Oak now, which is probably the tree that most people know or think about when they think about Sherwood Forest. You know, it's legendarily the place where Robin Hood lived. You know, you can make that decision for yourself when you get there and you see the tree. 

Adam Shaw: OK, brilliant. Alright. Well, we're gonna walk on, you go sign a petition if if you fancy or just sip your cup of tea. Now one thing, I was keen not to do too much about Robin Hood cause I thought there would be loads much there'd be loads more to talk about. But in fact, I've hardly mentioned Robin Hood. I feel that's a bit of a miss. So Sherwood Forest, most famous, the home of Robin Hood. He's a real character, isn't he for a start? 

Louise Hackett: Absolutely. 

Adam Shaw: OK good. Right. Robbed from the rich and gave to the poor? I know you're a tree expert not really a Robin Hood expert and this is a bit unfair, but from your understanding is that a good reflection of what happened? Or is it more complex than that? 

Louise Hackett: Well, I think I think you can easily understand how Sherwood Forest would be a landscape someone like Robin Hood would be able to hide and and for for hundreds of years you would have had to have hired a guide to take you through this landscape. It was considered so dangerous.  

Adam Shaw: Really, you get mugged? 

Louise Hackett: Absolutely.  

Adam Shaw: And it was the king's hunting ground. So this was a good place for someone who wants to, you know, pick on the rich, this is would be a place to do it. 

Louise Hackett: It had an entirely different law system, so it prevented us, the commoners from from taking the vert or the venison from this landscape. So you can understand how local people would be slightly annoyed at the fact that the king was holding all of all of that for himself. 

Adam Shaw: Yes, slightly annoyed. I think that'd be a great description of Robin Hood. He was slightly annoyed as he set up his band of merry men to take back the venison *both laugh*. Anyway, and it's still today, I mean, that's what draws a lot of the tourists in we're standing up by this huge oak, but of course around us, lots of signage about Robin Hood and lots of young people dressed in green running around with lovely hats on. So yeah, still still a draw. 

Louise Hackett: Absolutely and internationally as well, which I think is really exciting for the Major Oak specifically. It hosted many guests from from across the world, and not many trees can say that. 

Adam Shaw: We've arrived at the Major Oak, which is a major tree. It is not called the Major Oak because it is big is it?  

Louise Hackett: No. 

Adam Shaw: OK so let's first of all explain why it's called the Major Oak. 

Louise Hackett: So it's named after Major Hayman Rooke, who famously illustrated a lot of named trees across this landscape and and in Derbyshire also. But a lot of trees that were incredibly significant in this landscape but have since been lost. The irony is he didn't actually illustrate this tree *both laugh*. 

Adam Shaw: So, so so it's called after him, but it's nothing to do with him at all. 

Louise Hackett: Well, well, he, he, he, he he was certainly in this area and will have will have absolutely seen this tree but and there is an illustration that quite often gets labelled as the Queen Oak or which was its name before it was known as the Major Oak but actually when you study that illustration, it bears no resemblance to this tree. 

Adam Shaw: OK. So it's like in honour of a man who chronicled the trees of this region. 

Louise Hackett: Absolutely. 

Adam Shaw: Fair enough. Now let's describe it because it is an oak. To me, those familiar with the Harry Potter Potter novels might think of it more as the Whomping Willow. It's it's very sprawling, not particularly high. It doesn't really have an obvious crown. It's spreading out, and it's supported by lots of metal supports, which probably because the limbs are so old, they might fall off or fall down, and it's got a fence around it to stop you going up to it now. Is that a fair description? 

Louise Hackett: Absolutely. So, so those props, kind of the the the the history of this tree is quite complex, so actually measures were taken since the Victorian era to hold this tree together essentially. There were some fantastic pictures of the blacksmith posing in front of this tree with all the metalwork that we can actually still see in the crown, you can see all of that metalwork holding the branches together.  

Adam Shaw: Ohh right I thought yeah now because it's all brown I missed it. I thought it was ropes. That's metalwork. 

Louise Hackett: Yeah. No, that's all metalwork and and that's been there for a very long time. 

Adam Shaw: This is really pulled together. This tree is being held together. But it still limps on. 

Louise Hackett: It does, it does. It is struggling. 

Adam Shaw: Right. How old is it?  

Louise Hackett: So that's a fantastic question. *both laugh* 

Adam Shaw: OK, I can I can tell from the moment I asked that you didn't want to be asked that question. OK, well, is it not clear how old this tree is? 

Louise Hackett: There is no way to definitively say how old this tree is.  

Adam Shaw: But you're an expert, give us your best guess. 

Louise Hackett: There, there are are are lots of guesses, some say 800, some say 1,300. 

Adam Shaw: Which would make it very old for an oak, isn't it, 1,000 years is... 

Louise Hackett: No matter what it is a very old tree. 

Adam Shaw: Right. And I mean, I rather unkindly described it as limping on. It's it's clearly having help here. It's nothing particularly wrong with it, it's just old, is it? 

Louise Hackett: No. So it's not its age that is causing it issues. So as I was saying the the Victorians did a lot of work in in terms of trying to keep the tree together. It was an incredibly popular tourist attraction through the for the Victorians.  

Adam Shaw: Still is, there's a picnic area right by here. 

Louise Hackett: And it it still is, it has 200 years of people visiting this tree and unfortunately that has compromised the tree as a result. 

Adam Shaw: Why, what, why would that, people coming along and standing by the tree, why, what harm does that do? 

Louise Hackett: So the first thing you want to do when you're visiting an ancient tree is you want to walk right up to it, don't you? And put your hands on it and and and and kind of make that connection. And for a long time you could do that. At the moment it's fenced off, and it's been fenced off for for 30-odd years and that's because the compaction around this tree is considerable. 

Adam Shaw: And that makes it hard for its roots to actually function. 

Louise Hackett: It means that they can't access, the roots can't access the water and nutrients needed. And and it's now struggling unfortunately as a as a result of that. 

Adam Shaw: Now also we passed just we're sort of one side of the of the tree, as we passed it, I could see sort of round I don't know metal thing attached to it, looked like a scientific instrument. What's that? 

Louise Hackett: Yes. So a lot of work is happening on this site at the moment to hopefully remedy some of the issues that the Major Oak is happening. So RSPB have employed a whole range of experts from from many different fields. And I've been working with them and Myerscough College to fit dendrometers to the tree. 

Adam Shaw: Say that word again?  

Louise Hackett: Dendrometers. 

Adam Shaw: Dendrometers. What's that? 

Louise Hackett: So these measure the the growth and shrinkage of the of the sapwood, so they're fitted... 

Adam Shaw: And the sapwood is that the internal bit? 

Louise Hackett: Yes, so so this is the, the, the the part that transports all of those water and nutrients. 

Adam Shaw: Right. So it's got a sort of it it's got something buried inside the tree, which is measuring internal movement. 

Louise Hackett: So so it's it's fixed to the tree, but it actually sits on the bark. So we've used one penny coins, which because they're magnetic.  

Adam Shaw: Literally one penny coins? 

Louise Hackett: Yeah, there are there are multiple penny coins glued to the Major Oak right now. And the dendrometer just sits on on that magnet. It has a magnet and it just sits on there. And it measures to the micrometre any growth or shrinkage every half hour. 

Adam Shaw: Right. Right. Whether, it's like it's breathing, whether it's breathing out or whether it's breathing in and why, that's extraordinary. That's a normal process is it?  

Louise Hackett: Yes.  

Adam Shaw: And that's as the water's coming up it sort of expands a bit and because that's how it pushes the water up anyway, isn't it sort of like a like a snake sort of pushing it up and down? 

Louise Hackett: Absolutely. And it will be responding to its environment. So what we're seeing is after a really dry spell, it shrinks. And after a wet spell it it it expands so the cells are always dividing but the the kind of quantity of water in those cells depends on on the environment and and what's happening. 

Adam Shaw: Right. And what you'd want to see in a healthy tree is a lot of movement or not a lot of movement? 

Louise Hackett: It's not so much about the the movement, it's more about the trajectory. So over time we want to see the, the, the average going up, that it's constantly growing. Obviously the tree's struggling at the moment and it's so it's a fascinating time to be observing what different sections of the tree are doing and because as we were talking before about functional units, the Major Oak will have separate functional units. 

Adam Shaw: Right, so this is what I was going to come on to that, we talked about how actually trees could be immortal in a way, because it's not that an acorn comes off and grows another tree, but they split so the same tree, sort of starts its life again, genetically the same tree that, you're going to correct me here, but that hasn't happened here, has it? 

Louise Hackett: So so so. In what way do you mean sorry? 

Adam Shaw: Well, yeah, that's alright I because I'm an idiot, aren't I? What I mean is that it, wouldn't it be lovely if, like we saw with the Parliament Oak, that if a bit of it sort of split off you went OK, maybe the first bit might die back but genetically, the same tree that that continuous sort of lineage just starts afresh next to it, not as an acorn but as a part of its own tree. But we don't seem to be seeing that.  

Louise Hackett: It has done that.  

Adam Shaw: In the past or, I just can't see it now? 

Louise Hackett: So it is you just can't see it. So yeah.  

Adam Shaw: OK, I told you I'm an idiot! Show, show me what's going on. Show me. 

Louise Hackett: No, no, no, no, no. So so so we were just, so the the the Parliament Oak just makes it incredibly obvious because we have images of two very obvious separate functional units because the the area in between has has died away over time, but we can't see that so obviously with the Major Oak until you really know what you're looking for. So if you think... 

Adam Shaw: Right. That's why I've brought you along! Go on. Show me what I should be looking for. 

Louise Hackett: So the large if you see that large limb to to the right, you can you can almost see a line going down the bark. 

Adam Shaw: Yes. I definitely can see a line. It looks like someones lain something over that. 

Louise Hackett: Yeah. So basically what it's done is it's formed this this separate functional unit associated with that large limb. And what you generally see when you when you've got strong functional units in, in my eyes, you you often see this almost like a wound wood response to the separate unit. They're starting to understand that they're separate and behave so they're healing against each other. 

Adam Shaw: Right. So that tree that, that part of the tree really reaching out into the picnic area if you like, is part of a sort of a new a new development.  

Louise Hackett: Not new. 

Adam Shaw: I was going to say it's all, new is relative because this thing is maybe 1,000 years old. 

Louise Hackett: It's. Yeah, I think it's hard. It's hard for us to understand, but it's essentially, you know, my arm, my right arm connected to my right leg is functioning completely separately and if I if that was to be completely removed, would continue happily. 

Adam Shaw: Yes. Yeah, fine. So even if the main bit of the tree died back or something terrible happened to it, we might have that maintaining itself. It's a separate entity. 

Louise Hackett: Potentially. We've we've definitely got some functional units doing better than others. And what that means is perhaps may, you know worst case scenario one of those functional units are going to die. Worst case scenario, hopefully that's not going to happen. But if it did, that doesn't compromise the other units, so they could carry on and and... 

Adam Shaw: Yeah. So you're saying even though it actually it hasn't got a huge amount of leaves on it, it's rather bald actually that baldness is a sign of hope, which is a good... I'm just taking it, trying to take a good message for bald men like me, the world over there is hope in your baldness. Men and trees unite. *both laugh* You're not so sure, I get that. 

Louise Hackett: It's kind of the opposite but... 

Adam Shaw: Oh, it's the opposite of that! Oh, you were saying there was hope though? 

Louise Hackett: It's the, it's there's hope where where you've got more leaves. Yeah, sorry. 

Adam Shaw: Ohh, there's hope they're, so I'm trying to find a good message in being bald. No, there's never a good... right scrub that. It's always bad. 

Louise Hackett: It's not, it's I so so I quite often describe ancient trees the the process of retrenchment is they're quite like people is they they they come become a bit more rotund, they shrink and and they lose their hair. And this is what trees do. And that is a really positive process. 

Adam Shaw: She's not describing me, just so you know. This sort of I mean it's an amazing it's an amazing, bit of nature of this, it's also a bit of history, which neatly ties in to this Living Legend's campaign, isn't it? It's an it's an important part of British history. 

Louise Hackett: It is when you think about this tree alone. Let's say it's 1,300 years old, which is the upper estimate. The the the history that this tree has witnessed in its lifetime is immense, in a way that we would certainly look to protect a a building that has that, that, that history connection to it. 

Adam Shaw: Yeah. I mean, during, so 1,000 years ago, what are we talking about? What were we saying before? It's like is it 1066. So it's, yeah, I don't know Edward the Confessor. It's I don't know if this was a man built thing we'd all be buying tickets to see it and there'd be an ice cream van outside and, you know, it'd be on a tourist trail. This is free. A part of British history. A witness to British history. And yet, trees like this don't have the same sort of legal protection that if it was made of bricks, it would have. So do you, do you think this is a good ambassador or how good an ambassador is this for the sort of campaign you're trying to to rally around? 

Louise Hackett: Absolutely. I think this is why people love to visit ancient trees. I I don't think you can help but be in awe for its age and and what it's witnessed in a way that I think it's quite hard for us to comprehend and and you know, comparing to our own lifespans. 

Adam Shaw: Yeah. 

Louise Hackett: It's inspiring. 

Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special. Or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you.

Join us for a jam-packed visit to Frodsham Woods, Cheshire, where 80 volunteers were planting thousands of trees to help transform a former golf course into a fantastic new space for wildlife and people. We visit the neighbouring ancient woodland and admire hilltop views with site manager Neil and chat to Tim, supervisor of this army of tree planters, about how the new wood will develop. We also meet Esther, lead designer of the project, hear from comms guru Paul about the Trust's #plantmoretrees climate campaign, and speak to the volunteers about what the day means to them.

Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk

Transcript

You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive.

Adam: Well, today's podcast is a bit of an unusual one because I'm off to an abandoned golf course in Cheshire, overlooking Liverpool. Not far away, in fact. And the vision is to create this once golf course into a thriving mosaic of habitats, including lush broadleaved woodland, grassland meadows and wooded glades dotted with wildflowers. Throughout the site, they're creating a network of grassy paths so people can walk through them and get far-reaching views of the Welsh borders, the western Pennines and the Bowland Fells, along with, of course, Liverpool and the Mersey Estuary. And very excitingly, the man actually who's running all the tree planting there is also in a band, and it's his music and his band's music you can hear in the background. More about that a little later. It's called Frodsham Woods, and it's near the Frodsham train station. Guess where? In Frodsham. Well, today we are starting, I'm starting sitting down with Neil Oxley, who's the site manager here. Hi Neil.

Neil: Good morning, Adam.

Adam: Good morning. So, just explain where we are because we are, well, I'm not gonna take away your thunder. Explain. It's an unusual location.

Neil: So, we're sat on a bench overlooking the River Mersey and Liverpool. We're on the old golf course that was closed about three years ago.

Adam: Yeah, well that's what I think is unusual – sitting on a golf course. I gotta take, it doesn't look like a golf course. They, the greenkeeper would have had a heart attack seeing the state of this place. But what's amazing is, well, I'm looking over a forest of planted trees. I mean, just within 10 yards, probably a couple of hundred of them, just been planted. So, this has got to be unusual. Take buying a golf course, turning it into a forest?

Neil: It is, yeah. I think it's probably the first golf course that the Woodland Trust has taken on and it's just a great opportunity, though, that when it became available, it's adjoining some of our existing woodlands, including ancient woodland. And it's given us an opportunity to plant lots of trees and work with local people and engage the community in doing something good for the climate.

Adam: And we're sitting down, looking over what might be, I don't know. Is that a bunker? Do you think that's a bunker?

Neil: It is, yep. So, there there's probably about 40 bunkers on the golf course and we've kept them all, so some of those old features are still here.

Adam: And I saw one, some gorse growing, just naturally growing in the bunker there.

Neil: There is. Just in the two or three years since it stopped being maintained. There's gorse, there's silver birch, there's all sorts of trees and plants that are now appearing.

Adam: I love the gorse. It's bright. It comes out early. Bright yellow. Real splash of colour in early spring. It's really.

Neil: It is, yeah, it's lovely and colourful.

Adam: And we're looking over a range of wind turbines. And is that the Mersey ahead?

Neil: That is, that's the River Mersey.

Adam: Although there's not much river, it looks, it looks like it's out. It's mainly mud.

Neil: It's probably low tide at the moment. Yeah, and Liverpool just beyond the other side.

Adam: Very nice. So, you're going to be my main guide today. We've got lots of people to meet, I know. Alright. Brilliant. So, explain to me the plan for the day.

Neil: So, we're gonna have a walk round and look at some of the tree planting that we've already done here. We've got some groups of corporate volunteers and Woodland Trust staff here today also who are planting trees. So, we'll go and see them later on. But I thought maybe to start off with we could go and visit some of the ancient woodland that borders the site and show you sort of why it's important that we're doing what we're doing today.

Adam: Brilliant. I'm of an age where sitting down is quite nice, but that's not going to get, that's not gonna get nothing made, is it? It's alright. We better get up and you lead on.

Neil: OK, let's go. This lady, by the way, coming with the pug. She's up here all the time. She's really lovely, friendly, always talks to me and Paul. And we've already said hello to her, but he...

Adam: Oh, this dog wants a lot of attention.

Neil: He loves that. He loves that, yeah.

Adam: We'll let the rest of the team pet the dog. You know, you've paused here for a special reason. Why?

Neil: Yeah. So, this area, we're on the edge of the ancient woodland now and the part of the site in front of us is going to be left for what's called natural regeneration to develop. So, that will be where trees can self-seed and set and grow naturally. So, we're not actually planting any trees in this area in front of us. And you can see there's some silver birch trees there that probably self-seeded five or 10 years ago on the edge of the golf course. And they're growing quite well already.

Adam: So, and what's the advantage of that? There's a big debate about rewilding and all of that. So, why has that become an important issue?

Neil: It is, I mean to different people it can mean slightly different things as well. But basically it's leaving the land to develop and rewild itself, you know, for nature to colonise it. It's a slower process.

Adam: So, because if you're planting them yourself, you're planting all the trees at the same time. They're all the same age, so they get wiped out. Everything gets wiped out.

Neil: Potentially yes. You could lose a lot more.

Adam: Actually, I'm surprised those are natural regeneration because they've, it's very regimented. Those silver birch, they've all come up in exactly the same space, very close together. It looks like there's been some thought behind that.

Neil: It does. It does and again nature can do things very similar to how people plant trees. You know, you often can end up with them very densely packed, more densely packed than we're planting them, actually.

Adam: Yeah, OK. Well, we're still surrounded by these young, young trees. So, you lead on. Where are we heading off to?

Neil: So, we're just walking into, towards the ancient woodland area. So, this this is called Woodhouse Hill and it's mostly oak and some silver birch, some holly growing in here, plus a few other species as well.

Adam: And wonderfully of you, you've taken me to the muddiest bit of land there is. Are we going through this?

Neil: This, well, we can do. It's unfortunately because of the winter we've had, some of the paths are very wet and muddy around here now.

Adam: So, I have my walking boots on. You squelch ahead and I'll squelch behind you.

Neil: OK. We'll carry on then.

Adam: So, we're heading up, give us a better view of the Mersey, a better view of Liverpool.

Neil: That's right. Just around the corner, there's a really good viewpoint where the view will open up and a sunny day like today get quite good views.

Adam: And is it used by the locals a lot? I mean, it's relatively new then. I mean, presumably a lot of locals don't know about it.

Neil: Well, I mean since, the golf course was closed down during the pandemic, and at the time the owner allowed the public to come and walk on the site. So, suddenly from people being not allowed to use it unless they were playing golf, local people were allowed to come and walk the dogs or just walk themselves around with the family. So, people did get to know the site and start using it, but it also borders some existing woodlands with footpaths, which is where we are now. So, these existing woodlands were already well-used.

Adam: Right. And what's the reaction of the locals been to the development here?

Neil: Very positive. Yeah. I mean obviously there's always a fear when a piece of land is up for sale that it might go for some sort of development, housing or be sold to a private landowner who fences it off and stops people using it. So, people have been, yeah, really positive, really supportive. The consultation that we did before we started anything was all very much in favour of creating woodland and allowing public access.

Adam: I think we're coming up to a viewpoint here where there's a bench.

Neil: There is, we should have another sit down.

Adam: And it's very steep here. You wouldn't want to be falling off that, but this is a beautiful view.

Neil: Yeah. The weather today is just great for the view.

Adam: We've been blessed. Look at this. And then you look across a sort of flat valley floor with some wind turbines, which some don't like but I always think they're really majestic. And beyond the wind turbines, the Mersey, where the tide is out. And beyond that, that's Liverpool. And is that Liverpool Cathedral? The grey building in the sort of middle there.

Neil: That's the main Anglican cathedral, and then the Catholic cathedral is just off to the right and beyond in the far distance is North Wales, so that low line of hills you can see is just within North Wales.

Adam: Oh, that's, those hills over there, beyond the chimneys, that's Wales.

Neil: Beyond the chimneys, yeah.

Adam: And some other lovely gorse and, whoops don't fall over, I thought it was going to be me that would be falling over, not the site manager.

Neil: Mind the rock.

Adam: Ice and sea. So, we've come to the sign. 'The view from Woodhouse Hill holds clues to the distant past, the Mersey Basin and Cheshire's sandstone hills were both shaped by advancing ice sheets during the last Ice Age.' Do you know what? I wanted to say that because I remember from O-level geography, I think a flat-bottomed valley is a glacier-made valley. But I was, I didn't want to appear idiotic, so I didn't say that and I should have had the courage of my convictions. So, this is an ice-formed landscape.

Neil: It is. It is. I understand that the ice sheets came down to this part of the north of England back in the Ice Age. And there's some interesting features that are found here called glacial erratics.

Adam: Right.

Neil: Which is rocks from other parts of the north of England and Scotland that were brought down on the ice sheets. And then when the ice sheets melted, those rocks were left behind. But they're from a different geological area.

Adam: Right. Amazing.

Neil: So, around here it's sandstone. The erratics are all kind of volcanic rocks.

Adam: Brought down from the north, from Scotland.

Neil: Lake District and Scotland. That's right.

Adam: Beautiful. We were with a few other people.

Neil: I think they couldn't be bothered to come through the mud, could they? Yeah.

Adam: We seem to have lost them. OK, alright. Well, maybe we'll have to, we've lost our team, our support team.

Neil: We'll head back, but yeah, no, this was the view I thought we'd come to. Yeah, because it is a nice view.

Adam: Well, I'll tell you what. Let me take a photo of you, for the Woodland Trust social media.

Neil: Thought you were gonna say falling over the rock again. No, no, I'll try not to.

Adam: Yeah, let's not do that. Yeah, so to explain, you're running me across the field for some...

Neil: Walking fast.

Adam: Well, for you walking fast. I've got short legs. Why?

Neil: Well, we've walked over now to where we've got the people who are helping plant trees today with us. So, we've got a mix of corporate volunteers, Woodland Trust staff and some of our volunteers here to help us and we're gonna go over and meet Tim Kerwin, who's in charge of the tree planting and supervising the tree planting with us today.

Adam: Oh right, so these are, this is his army of tree planters.

Neil: It is, yes. Tim keeps things in check and makes sure they're doing the right thing.

Adam: OK. I mean, let's just look, there's scores of people I've no idea of who Tim is.

Neil: Tim? Tim, can we get your attention for a few minutes?

Tim: Yes.

Adam: Hi, nice to see you, Tim.

Tim: I've seen you on telly.

Adam: Have you?

Adam: Well, Tim, as well as being in charge of everyone planting the trees today is also the sax player in a band. And of course we have to talk about that first and he very kindly gave me one of his original tracks, which is what you can hear right now. A first for the podcast.

*song plays*

Tim: You know, you know what? We probably do about eight gigs a year, right? But we're trying to find venues where people like jazz. We don't want to, you know, we don't want to do Oasis. That's not what we're about. There's plenty of bands like that. We play music for ourselves, and if people turn up and appreciate it, those are the people we want. I'll play for one person.

Adam: You know, I was in a wood a few years ago and, can't remember where it was, and we just came across a violinist, just playing to herself. And it was just like can I record it? And it's like, just playing amongst the trees, and I thought it was really lovely.

Tim: You know what? I would, I would do the same. I mean, the places I like to play, like churches are fantastic because of the acoustics.

Adam: So, you might play that under this chat and what's the name of the band?

Tim: The Kraken.

Adam: The Kraken?

Tim: Yeah.

Adam: OK. Alright, The Kraken *laughs* So, all of which is a bit of a divergence.

Tim: I know, sorry *laughs*

Adam: So, I'm told you're in charge of this army of tree planters you can see over here. Three men having their sandwich break there. So, you've been working them hard.

Tim: We have been working them hard, indeed.

Adam: So, just explain to me a little bit about what's going on here.

Tim: So, today we can almost see the finishing line for our 30,000 trees. So, this morning we've actually planted just shy of 2,000 trees with the group that we've had, of which there's about 80 people.

Adam: That's a lot of trees. People always talk about how long does it take to plant a tree? It's not that big a thing is it?

Tim: No, but what we're keen about is it's not about necessarily speed, it's about accuracy. We want quality. So, what we're asking people to do is plant each tree really well. So, today I have to say the standard of planting has been amazing. From the first to the last, I haven't found one that I'm not happy with.

Adam: So, explain to me, and we're standing by a tree that's just been planted. It looks like they've scraped a bit of the grass away. So, explain to me, how should you plant a tree and what goes wrong?

Tim: OK, so what we've done here, we took the grass off before the guys came, so that's called scriefing. So, the purpose of that is the tree needs water. And this grass also needs water. So, we take that grass away, and the competition's gone away for the tree. So, it won't be forever, because within two years, that grass will have grown around that tree. But those first two years are quite critical. So, if we can get the new roots from, so those trees and little plugs, new roots which are going to come out in the next couple of weeks because the soil's warming up. I mean, the air's warming up, but the soil's warming up. Those will send out shoots. They're already starting to come in to leaf, which is why the urgency to get these trees in now. They will take in the water around them and then keep on spreading with that root system. Enough root system will go out there and it will then not be competing with the grass because in fact the tree will be competing with the grass and actually taking over. So, eventually that grass will probably die because it will be shaded out in the future.

Adam: And talking about shade, I'm surprised how closely planted these are, about five foot apart or thereabouts. If this was a forest in 20 years', 30 years' time, it's exceptionally dense. Or are you expecting a lot of them to fail?

Tim: So, imagine you've got an oak tree and that throws down 40,000 acorns in usually every four years. So, it doubles its weight above ground.

Adam: Sorry, 40,000?

Tim: 40,000. A mature oak, yeah.

Adam: It's worth pausing on that *laughs* A mature oak drops 40,000 acorns a year?

Tim: Every four years, roughly.

Adam: Because it doesn't do it every year, do they?

Tim: No. So, it has what they call a mast year, which is the year when everything's come together. It's usually based on the previous weather, weather conditions. So, that doubles the weight of the tree above ground, that throws all those acorns. Now you imagine they're gonna be a couple of centimetres apart on the ground. They're not all going to make it. What they're hoping is that something will take those away. So, a jay or a squirrel, they'll move those acorns away. Not all of them will get eaten. In fact, jays let the acorn germinate, and then they eat the remains. So, they wait to see where the oak tree comes up and then they come back and eat the remains of the cotyledon. So, you imagine if all those were going to germinate, there'd be a mass rush, and what they're waiting for is for the parent plant to die. And if that falls over, then they can all shoot up, but they're not all going to survive. So maybe only one, maybe two will survive out of those 40,000 if they're close to the tree. Now, what we're doing here is, imagine there's the parent plant, the parent plant's not here. We've already spaced these out by this distance already. So, we've given them a better chance. So, they can now flourish. In time, so within sort of 10 to 12 years, we're going to start to be sending this out. So, you won't see this line. There are other parts on this site, 23 years old, and we've done a lot of filling through that. You wouldn't know it's been planted by, in a plantation.

Adam: So, what would you, what's the failure rate? What's a good failure rate to stay with?

Tim: It can really, really vary. I have to say that the soil here is tremendous. It's very rich. I'd be very surprised if we have a high failure rate. It could be 95% take.

Adam: So, that's really interesting. And what are you planting then? I've seen some oak. I've seen some silver birch. What are you planting?

Tim: So, Cheshire is all about oak and birch. So, 25% of these trees, so 7,500 are oak. And then 10% are silver birch. So that's 3,000. And then there's another 18 species that are all native to the UK that we're planting in here. So, things like rowan, holly, Scots pine and then we've got hazel, some large areas of hazel on this site that we've put in and then we've got hawthorn, blackthorn, couple of types of cherry, and then some interesting ones as well. So, we're putting some elm in and, specifically for a butterfly. So, there's a butterfly called white letter hairstreak. And the caterpillar feeds on the leaves of that tree. So, we've got those in Cheshire, but we're trying to expand it. And we've been working with the Butterfly Conservation group to get it right. So, they've given us some advice.

Adam: I thought elm was a real problem with the Dutch elm disease?

Tim: It still is. It still is.

Adam: There was some talk that maybe some had found some natural resistance to Dutch elm disease.

Tim: There are some resistant elm. And so, the plantings that we've done on here are what's classed as wych elm. It will still get Dutch elm disease, but it can last up to 16 years. And then there's always the opportunity to replant so we can get elm established. Then we can carry on spreading that through the site, so it's a starting point for that species we have. So again, we're trying to increase the biodiversity of the site by having specific trees for specific species. So, it's exciting. I mean, a lot's been lost and it won't become a beautiful wildflower meadow, although we are going to be doing some wildflower planting. We've already bought the seed. And in the next couple of weeks as it gets a little bit drier and a little bit warm, we're going to be, we're going to be sowing that in and that will come through the spring and summer. So, we've got lots to happen here as well.

Adam: Oh brilliant. Well, it's so nice to see it at an early stage. I'll come back in a couple of years.

Tim: It's probably one of the most exciting projects, tree wise, in Cheshire in a long time, because I've been doing this for a long, long time and these opportunities don't come up. So, for this to happen. And for the size of it as well. I mean, you're talking about a huge area of woodland now, over 180 acres. So, the second biggest area of woodland in Cheshire, so it's amazing. It truly is amazing.

Adam: Well, I'm walking away. In fact, all tree planting has stopped for lunch. What is the time? Yeah, it's 12:45. So, everyone has stopped for sandwiches and teas, and they're spreading branches of some trees. And while they're doing that, two people are still working. That's me. And Paul? Hi.

Paul: Hi.

Adam: So, just explain to me what you do, Paul?

Paul: I work as the comms and engagement manager for the north of England, so this is one of the best tree planting games we have had in a long time.

Adam: And the people we've got here today, they're just locals? They from any particular groups?

Paul: No, the Woodland Trust staff as part of our climate campaign now get a day to come out and we've got various corporate volunteering groups out also planters. We've got about 80 people out planting today.

Adam: Well, that's amazing and we've just paused by this gorse bush. I'm rather partial to the gorse, so we'll take some shelter there. So, you talked about that this is part of a bigger campaign. What is that campaign?

Paul: It's our climate campaign. And very simple hashtag plant more trees. So, trees are one, probably one of the best things we've got in the battle against climate change to help. And they have the added benefit that also they're good for biodiversity as well. So, twin track approach if you plant a tree. Obviously they're not the solution to everything, but we're hoping, as the Woodland Trust just to get more people planting trees.

Adam: What is the target then? The sort of tree planting target you have?

Paul: Well we have a target to get 50 million trees planted by 2030. Across all of the UK, so quite, quite a number.

Adam: 50 million trees by 2030, so six years?

Paul: Yeah, yeah. And we've, I think we've planted 6 million trees, 2023, yeah.

Adam: Why is everyone taking a break? They've got millions to get in. That's quite an ambitious thing to get done, isn't it?

Paul: Yeah. And we need, we need to plant billions of trees longer term. So, it's really important we get everyone planting trees, but it's all that message as well, right tree in the right place, and get trees planted where they're needed.

Adam: And this is an unusual project, not least cause it's on an old golf course, which I've never heard of before. Has it attracted much interest? Is there a lot of engagement from the media and the public?

Paul: Yeah, this site has had a remarkable amount of attention from the press. It started with local radio, then regional TV and then we've had things like Sky News Climate Show out here and then even international press coverage looking at rewilding of golf courses. CNN covered it alongside international golf courses and here in the UK, Frodsham. So, it's been amazing how it's captured everyone's imagination and it's been such a really positive good news story. It's a site that's a key site within the Northern Forest. So, the Northern Forest is another project that I'm involved with in the north of England, but.

Adam: Did you say a little project? *laughs*

Paul: Another, another project.

Adam: Oh sorry. I was gonna say, a massive project.

Paul: That's a massive project, which is again stretching, looking to plant 50 million trees from Liverpool to Hull and we're working with the Community Forests in each area, in this case the Mersey Forest and again just promoting grants and support to landowners and communities to get more, more trees planted and to help acquire land for tree planting and give the grants for tree planting.

Adam: It must give you a warm feeling that your communications are actually being so well received that there is, it's not just you pushing out a message, that people want to hear this message.

Paul: Yeah, it's really, really good to not have a negative message. Generally it's a really, really positive message that people wanted to hear because it's great for the community. They're getting some amazing green space with stunning views of the Mersey on the doorstep. It's interesting story about how we're changing from a golf course to a woodland site. We've got the ancient woodland, got natural regeneration. And just the fact that everyone's smiling, everyone's really happy and just so pleased that they're playing their small part in helping us create this new woodland site. Just great to be part of that, that positive good news story.

Adam: Well, I'm going over to a group of people who have been busy planting all day but are now on their lunch break, just to bother them and ask them how their day has been and why they got involved in this.

Adam: OK, well, you can, first of all, you can just shout out so, well we've, you all are hard at work I hear, but I've seen very little evidence of it cause everyone's sat down for lunch now. Have you all had a good day?

Everyone: Yes.

Adam: That would have been awful had they said no. Anyway, they all had a good day. So, I mean, it's lovely that you're out. You're all out here doing, I mean, very serious work. You've all got smiles on your face and everything. But this is important. I wonder why anyone's getting involved, what it means to you. Anyone got a view or get a microphone to you?

Adam: So, what's your name?

Volunteer 1: Rodon.

Adam: Rodon. So, why are you here?

Rodon: Well, nature, wildlife, planting, and I know the area quite well, so it's nice to see being developed in a sustainable way and being something for nature. It's a great place to come and visit, not far from the sandstone trail. I visit lots of Woodland Trust sites. I live in Warrington so it's sort of down the road, and it's, as I say, with the old wood over there that's quite an adventurous path. It's got lots of like sandstone sort of steps and little caves, and it's on the side of a cliff. So, this has kind of extended that over here as well.

Adam: It would be a lovely thing to return to in a few years.

Rodon: Well, it's a nice place now to be honest.

Adam: Brilliant.

Volunteer 2: My name is David Mays. I'm also from the from the town of Warrington as well. I'm an MSC and BSc student from local Hope University. I've finished both of them now, thankfully. I'm trying to get a job in the ecological management sector and I feel doing this working with people like Tim and Neil will help me massively get a, you know, it looks good on my CV. Most importantly, I really enjoy being out here and getting to know how the areas of ecological development, particularly in the woodland industry, is developing over the past few years and what are the plans for the future and what they hope to achieve in the long term and short term.

Adam: That's very good. So, it's also very innovative of you putting out your CV live on air there. Good. Hopefully someone needing a job, with a job to offer will contact us. Good luck with that. So, oh yeah, we've come under another lovely tree. I mean it looks set. I was just saying to Kerry, it's so beautiful here. It looks like we've set this shot up. Really, you know? But here you are with your spades behind you taking a break from the trunk. So, first of all, have you, has it been a good day?

Volunteer 3: Yeah. Yeah, it has been. It's been dry.

Adam: It's been dry. OK. Alright. Well, let's get, so, the best thing about today is that it was dry.

Volunteer 3: It's one of the positive points. Definitely. Yeah, after the trees.

Adam: Yeah, with experience. So, why did you want to come out? What made you want to be part of this?

Volunteer 3: Well, I think it's because we are having a bit of a push with the climate change agenda at the moment, so it's, working for the Woodland Trust it's just a nice opportunity to get away from the sort of the day job for me and get out into the field and actually do something practical and help towards that.

Adam: Yeah. Did, I mean, has it been very physical for you today, has it?

Volunteer 3: It's not been too bad, actually. It's been fine. Yeah. No, it's been OK. Ask me tomorrow, but yeah *laughs*

Adam: Have you done this sort of stuff before?

Volunteer 3: No, this is my first, this is my first planting day with the Trust.

Adam: Yeah, and your last?

Volunteer 3: No, no, I'll definitely no, it hasn't put me off. We'll definitely, definitely be back out again when I get the opportunity. It's been great.

Adam: So, go on. Tell me what's all been like for you today?

Volunteer 4: It's been really good. Yeah. I just can't believe we've covered so much ground in so little time, really. Seems we've only been here a few hours and because it's, I've been quite remote working from home, so it's quite nice kind of seeing some people I've met on screen, so it's nice to now, yeah, meet people in the real world and yeah, give back. I've never, I've not done anything like this before.

Adam: So yeah, so is this your first time planting trees?

Volunteer 5: It's not my first time planting trees, but it's my first time planting with the Trust. I was planting trees in my garden on the weekend, so I've done my back in. So, I've not quite got the planting rate of everyone else today I don't think, but you know, as the other guys were saying, we work office jobs really rather than on the front line of the Trust. So, it is good to get our hands dirty and to get involved with what we're supposed to be all about and contribute to our climate change campaign. So, hashtag plant more trees.

Adam: Yeah. There we are, on message as well.

Volunteer 5: I work in the brand team *laughs*

Adam: There we are. There we are. Thank you. That's excellent.

Adam: Now, really I should have started with this because we're nearing the end of my morning in the forest. But I've come to meet Esther, who's really one of the big brains behind the planting scheme. I know a bit modest about that, but tell me a little bit about what your involvement has been with this project.

Esther: I've been a lead designer on this project, so I've been putting together the planting plans and lots of maps and really working with Neil, he's the site manager, to make sure that we make this the best scheme that we can make it. We've included coppice coupes for biodiversity and.

Adam: Right, what's a coppice coupe?

Esther: A coppice coupe is just an area of where you're planning to coppice. So, cut a tree down to its very base and then it grows back up as shoots. So, it only works with a few species and the species that we've chosen is hazel. So, those areas are 100% hazel. And it's great for biodiversity because you sort of go in a rotational like a 10-year cycle or something like that and you cut back say 10% of your trees in that year and then you get a lot of light to the ground and then you get hopefully a lot of floristic diversity coming through.

Adam: And so, is that a job that, it sounds terrible the way I'm saying it – is that a job? Is it a job that you sit down and you go, you have a piece of paper or computer and you go, this is where we're, how we're gonna design the forest. We're gonna put ash over there. We're gonna put oak over there. Is that what you do?

Esther: Yeah. Yeah. So, we use something called GIS. So, geographical information systems which basically let you draw shapes on a map and then you can colour code it and basically make a really coherent design of something to tell people, you know, what you're trying to achieve. What's gonna go where.

Adam: And it's not every, it's not like building an extension to a house where you go well, there's probably thousands and going on all the time. There can't be that many forests being planted each day, so this must be a significant thing in your career I would have thought.

Esther: Oh yeah, this is my first woodland creation scheme that I've seen from pretty much the start to the finish, so I've been working on it for 18 months and then an awful lot of hours gone into it. It's been really enjoyable and it's just a wonderful, wonderful to see it coming together. And yeah, and we're nearly finished now, so.

Adam: And I know people often think, oh well, I'll come back in 100 years' time and you know, my great grandchildren might see these trees. But actually, within your career, you will see a forest here won't you.

Esther: Yeah. So, I think within 10 years it will look like a woodland. It's had, this site has a history of agriculture, so it should in theory have a lot of nutrients in the soil. So, the trees should grow really well. So yeah, I would say within 10 to 15 years, it should look like fully fledged woodland, if not a bit young, but yeah.

Adam: And are you optimistic about really the change that you and your colleagues can make? Cause there's a lot of pessimism around. What's your view?

Esther: I think it's a really exciting time to be working in the environment sector and there's a lot of enthusiasm for making big changes in our lives and big changes in our landscape. I think there's a lot of hope to be had. And yeah, just seeing like the amount of enthusiasm on a planting day like this really fills me with a great deal of hope, yeah.

Adam: Yeah. Have you planted any trees yourself?

Esther: I have, yeah.

Adam: How many of these have been yours, you reckon?

Esther: We have 15, probably not that many *laughs*

Adam: Oh, that's not bad. I thought you were gonna be like The Queen. I planted one. There was a round of applause and I went home *laughs*

Esther: No, I put a lot of guards on, but yeah, not planting that many trees myself.

Adam: Fantastic. Well, it's been a great day for me. Our half day out here and I'll definitely return. It's amazing, amazing, positive place.

Esther: Wonderful, yeah.

Adam: And the sun has shone on us. Metaphorical smile from the sun. Brilliant. Thank you very much.

Esther: Thank you so much.

*song plays*

Adam: Well, if you want to find a wood near you, you can do so by going to The Woodland Trust website which is www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. Until next time, happy wandering.

Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special. Or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you.

Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk

Our setting for this episode, Sheffield's Endcliffe Park seems like many other popular green spaces, but it has a hidden history: its waterways once helped fuel the Industrial Revolution in the 'Steel City'. We discover how Sheffield's past intertwines with trees as local urban forester, Catherine Nuttgens, explains how nature and the city have shaped each other through the centuries, and why people here are so passionate about trees. We also meet Stella Bolam who works with community groups and schools to plant trees, and learn about the nearby Grey to Green project that's transformed tarmac into a tranquil haven for people and wildlife and tackles climate change too.

Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk

Transcript

You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people, for wildlife. 

Adam: Well, today I am in Sheffield, known of course as the Steel City renowned for steel production during the 19th century Industrial Revolution. But despite that historical heritage, woodland and green spaces were, and still are, the lungs of the city and seen as vitally important. In fact, it is now, according to Sheffield University, the UK's greenest city, with 250 public parks and over four and a half million trees. That's more trees per person than any other city in Europe and in 2022, Sheffield was named as a Tree City of the World. And I'm meeting Catherine Nuttgens at Endcliffe Park. That's a 15 hectare open space opened in 1887 to commemorate the Jubilee of Queen Victoria. And interestingly, it isn't in the middle of the countryside; it is two miles from the city centre, the first in a series of connected green spaces, known collectively as Porter Valley Parks, all of which lie along the course of the Porter Brook. Well, although it really is coming to spring, we've been hit with some rather unseasonable snow, and I thought we were going to start with some snow sound effects, but actually this is a very fast-moving river that I'm standing by and I am meeting Catherine. Hello. So, Catherine, just explain a bit about who you are first of all. 

Catherine: OK. Yes, I'm Catherine Nuttgens. I used to be the urban lead for the Woodland Trust, but I've just moved into independent work as an urban forester, an independent urban forester. 

Adam: Fantastic. And you have. We've arranged to meet by this. I was gonna say babbling brook. It's really much more than that, isn't it? So is this the river? The local river. 

Catherine: This is the River Porter, so this is one of five rivers in Sheffield. And it runs all the way up the Porter Valley, which is where we're going to be walking today. 

Adam: Let's head off. So I have no idea where I'm going. 

Catherine: Going that way. OK, yes, let's go. Let's go this way.  

Adam: OK. You sound already confused. 

Catherine: I was going to look at that. I was going to look at that tree over there. Cause we planted it. Is it still alive? 

Adam: We can go have a look at that. It's still alive. 

Catherine: Which tree? This tree? Here it's just so a total aside for everything that we're doing. 

Adam: We're already getting sidetracked. You see, if a tree was planted. 

Catherine: So yeah, I mean, this was one of... my old role at Sheffield Council was being community forestry manager and our role was to plant trees around the city. So one of the things that we planted were these War Memorial trees and it's very hard if you plant a tree to not go back to it and say, how's it doing? Is it OK? This is it, it's looking OK. 

Adam: This looks more than OK and also it's still got three poppy wreaths on it from Remembrance Sunday. And a dedication, lest we forget: to all the brave men and women of Sheffield who gave their lives and those who hereafter continue to give in pursuit of freedom and peace. 2018 it was planted. 

Catherine: One of the reasons I want to check it: it's quite a challenging place to plant a tree as there's an awful lot of football here. So the ground is really compacted, I think it's a red oak.  

Adam: A red oak. 

Catherine: That should be the right tree for this place. When they go in, they need so much water and it's 60 litres of water a week when it's dry, so keeping them alive, especially when the ground is so compacted is quite a challenge. It's something that happens all around the country is that people think 'I've planted a tree and now I can walk away'. But actually the real work goes into sort of making sure trees have got enough water. So that they can, you know, for at least the first sort of two or three years of planting. So that they can survive to the good. 

Adam: Brilliant. Alright. Well, look, we've already got distracted. We we've, we haven't even started. We've gone the wrong direction. But anyway, your oak is doing very well indeed.  

Catherine: I'm sorry. It's it's, it's good. 

Adam: So tell me a little bit about where we're going and why, why you've taken me on this particular trip. 

Catherine: Sheffield is actually the most wooded, well, it's the most treed and wooded city in Europe. There are more trees per head in Sheffield than there are in any other city in Europe. So I thought the Porter Valley is quite good because there's quite a lot of cafés on the way. So that's quite good. But also it was a great way of describing about how the, how the landscape of Sheffield has kind of shaped the city and how how kind of people are shaped by the landscape also. The landscape is, you know, is is shaped by the people and, and here's a real case in point, because although it all looks very beautiful now and as we go up the valley  you'll see, you know it, it gets more rural. Actually it's all artificial. This is a post-industrial landscape. 

Adam: So I mean when you say that, I mean this is this is a creative landscape this, so that I don't really understand what you mean. I mean they didn't knock, you didn't knock down factories. This must have been natural ground. 

Catherine: Well, it was natural, but basically Sheffield started Sheffield famous for iron and steel, and it's also on the edge of the Peak District. So there's there's these five very fast flowing rivers that actually provided the power for the grinding holes are places where they made blades and scissors and scythes and all these different things. And so along rivers like this one, there were what were called the like, grinding hulls, the little factories where they they use the the power of the water to sharpen those blades and to you know, to forge them and things. As we go further up, we'll start to see how the Porter kind of has been sort of sectioned off. It's been chopped up and made into ponds. There's what we call goits that go off and they would have been the little streams that go off and power each, each grinding hull along here. 

Adam: I mean you you say Sheffield is the most wooded city in the UK per head, and yet it hit the headlines a few years ago when the council started chopping down trees. And it wasn't entirely clear why, but the the local population were up in arms. So why was that? Is was that an aberration, or was that a change in policy?  

Catherine 

No, I mean people call Sheffield, the outdoor city. People in Sheffield have always been really connected to their trees. But I think when we got to the, you know, for the street tree protest, you know, the vision was beautiful, flat pavements and there were just these annoying trees in the way that were lifting all the paving slabs and everything. We thought what we need is lovely flat pavements, all the people that are complaining about trees all the time, they'll be really happy. But obviously that wasn't the case because people actually do quite like the trees. So what happened here was that the the council decided to send to send a crew to fell in the middle of the night, and then so they knocked on. Yeah. It was, yeah, honestly. Yeah, it was mad so. The the policemen came, knocked on people's doors, said 'sorry, can you move your cars? Because we want to cut down the trees.' And now obviously if a policeman knocks on your door in the middle of the night, you know, it's it's pretty scary. So the ladies that they did that to said no, I think I'm going to sit under this tree instead. And it was just mad. Just think, what are they doing? Because it was in the Guardian, like the morning, it got international by the sort of lunchtime. And it was if, if you wanted a way to create an international protest movement about trees, so that's the way to do it. So. But I mean, that was the thing Sheffield is, so it's not an affluent city, but people do stuff in Sheffield, you know, something's happened, someone's doing a thing about it, and they're really good at organising. And in the end, thank goodness the council stopped. If there are things going on in your city, dialogue is always the best way, and consulting and co-designing with the public is so important because it's that's what these trees are for. They're here to benefit people. So if you're not discussing kind of the plans with the people then you know, it's not it's you're not properly doing your job, really. 

Adam: And you said there's lots of choice of places to go with trees in and around Sheffield. And the reason you've chosen this particular place is why? Why does this stand out? 

Catherine: Well, I think I mean, first of all, it's quite it it, it is a beautiful valley that's kind of very accessible. We've got, I mean here the kind of manufactured you know the Porter has been Victorianised, it's all got these lovely little rills and things. Little rills. You know where little rills kind of maybe that's the wrong word, but the kind of. 

Adam: No, but I do. Teaching me so many new words. So what is the rill? 

Catherine: So you know, just kind of little bits in the the stream where they've made it, you know, kind of little rocks and things. 

Adam: Like rocks. Yeah, that is beautiful. They're like tiny little waterfalls. It's wonderful. I love it. 

Catherine: So here for example, I mean looks lovely like these ponds that we have. I mean there's always there's things like the, the kingfishers and and there's the kind of Endcliffe Park Heron that everyone takes pictures of. And there are often Mandarin ducks. I think we passed some Mandarin ducks earlier on, didn't we? But this is actually. This is a holding pool for what would have sort of, how would the grinding hull that now has gone. So it's actually a piece of industrial heritage. Yeah, it looks, I mean, it has now all been kind of made nice. In the '30s some of these pools were were kind of put over to and probably in Victorian times as well. They're actually swimming areas. They converted them into swimming. 

Adam: I mean the water, I mean, you can't see this if you're listening, but water's super muddy or or brown. It's not appealing to swim in, I'll just say, but OK, no, no one does that these days. 

Catherine: No. Well, they they do up at Crookes, actually. There are people going swimming that that's a, that's a fishing lake. So it's much deeper, but it's a little bit. 

Adam: Are you a wild swimmer?  

Catherine: Yeah. Yeah. Let's go out into the peak a bit more and out into the the lovely bit. 

Adam: Ohh wow, you said that's the way to. I mean, I can't get into a swimming pool unless it's bath temperature, let alone. 

Catherine: It's lovely in the summer. I'm not a cold swimmer, right? But I do love it in in the summer. It's not. I mean, that's what's great about Sheffield, really. And that, like, there's so much nature just within sort of 20 minutes' walk. I mean, some people just get on their bike and go out into the peak and whether it's you're a climber or a wild swimmer or a runner or just a walker, or you just like beautiful things. You know? It's it's it's kind of here. 

Adam: And there is an extraordinary amount of water, I mean. It's, I mean, you probably can hear this, but there seems to be river on all sides of us. It's so we've been walking up the Porter Brook, which you can hear in the background and we've come across Shepherd Wheel a water powered grinding hull last worked in the 1930s. 

Catherine: Come this way a little bit. You can see the there's the wheel that they've put together. So inside. I'm just wondering whether we can through a window we can look in. But so so Sheffield say a very independent sort of a place. The what used to happen is the the little mesters there were they hired. They were men.  

Adam: Sorry that's another word. What was a mester? 

Catherine: That is another word. A mester. That is. I mean. So I think it was like a little master, so like a master cutler or whatever. A little master. But but in in there there were there were individual grinding grindstones right with the benches, the grinding benches on and they hired a bench to do their own piece work. So so it was very independent, everyone was self-employed and you know they they. So the wheel actually sort of was important for probably quite a few livelihoods. 

Adam: We've come up to a big sign 'Shepherd's Wheel in the Porter Valley'. Well, look at this. Turn the wheel to find out more. Select. Oh, no idea what's going. You hold on a sec. Absolutely nothing. It's it's it's, it's, it's, it's a local joke to make tourists look idiotic. Look, there's another nutter just turning a wheel. That does nothing. 

Catherine: And actually an interesting well timber fact is that up in North Sheffield there's a wood called Woolley Wood there and all the trees were a lot of the trees are hornbeam trees. Now hornbeam is really good, as its name might suggest, because it it was used to make make the cogs for for for kind of structures like this, because the the wood was so very hard and also it was quite waterproof. There's actually when the wheel bits were replaced here they used oak. But one of the I think one of the problems with oak is that it's got lots of tannins in that can actually rot the iron work. So so actually. There's kind of knowledge that's been lost about how to use timber in an industrial way and and. 

Adam: So if you happen to be building a water wheel, hornbeam is, your go-to wood. I'm sure there's not many people out there building water wheels, but you know very useful information if you are. All right, you better lead on. 

Catherine: I think we can head unless you want to go, won't go down that way or go along along here much. There we go. We'll cross. We'll go this way. I think. Probably go down here. Yeah, this has got a great name, this road. It's Hanging Water Road, which I'm not sure I would think. It must be a big waterfall somewhere. I'm not sure whether there is one right so. It's just a a good name. So yeah, so this is more I think going into more kind of established woodland. Still see we've got the two rivers here. 

Adam: So tell me about where we're heading off to now. 

Catherine: We're going up into. I think there's a certainly Whitley Woods is up this way and there's one called Bluebell Woods, which would indicate you know, ancient... bluebells are an ancient woodland indicator, and so that would suggest that actually these are the bits where the trees have been here for much a much longer time. I think there's still kind of one of the things that they try and do in Sheffield, is kind of bring the woods back into traditional woodland management, where you would have had something with called coppice with standards. So the coppice wood was cut down for charcoal burning cause. So the charcoal, these woods, all these many, many woods across Sheffield fuelled all this steel work. You know they need. That was the the heat that they needed. So charcoal burning was quite a big industry. And and the other thing is that's good for us is that actually having kind of areas of open woodlands, you know, open glades and things, it's really, really good for biodiversity because you have that edge effect and you know, opens up to woodland butterflies and things like that. 

Adam: We're just passing an amazing house built on stilts on the side side of this hill, which has got this great view of the river. 

Catherine: There's. Yeah, there's some incredible houses around here. 

Adam: Where? Where so which where are we heading? 

Catherine: We'll go back down that way. 

Adam: OK. All right. You may be able to hear it's not just the river, it is now raining. And actually it's all making the snow a bit slushy, but we're on our way back. We're going to meet a colleague of yours. Is that right? 

Catherine: That's right. Yeah. So Stella Bolam, who. She's a community forestry officer who works for Sheffield City Council. She's going to be joining us. And yeah, she worked with me when I was working for the council and is in charge of planting trees with communities across Sheffield. 

Adam: OK, so Stella, hi. So, yeah, so. Well, thank you very much for joining me on this rather wet day on the outskirts of Sheffield. So just tell me a little bit about what you do. 

Stella: Yeah, of course. So our team, community forestry, we basically plant trees with people. It's our tagline, I suppose, and so we we work with community groups and schools to plant those trees and provide aftercare in the first three years, two-three years. 

Adam: Aftercare for the trees. Yeah, yeah. 

Stella: Yes. Ohh obviously for the people as well I mean. 

Adam: What sort of? Give me an example of the type of people you're working with and what you're actually achieving. 

Stella: Yeah, yeah. So I can tell you about a couple of projects I did. When I first joined a couple of years ago. So one was in an area called Lowedges, which is quite a deprived area of Sheffield. In the south of Sheffield. And we worked with a couple of local groups that were already formed to build, to plant a hedge line through the park. It's quite long. It's about 2000 whips we planted, and we also worked with a group called Kids Plant Trees, who advocate nature-based activities for children, which obviously includes planting trees, and we work with a couple of local schools. So we map all the trees that we plant and so for our records.  

Adam: And how did you get involved in all of this? 

Stella: I a couple of years ago I changed careers.  

Adam: You were a journalist. Is that right? 

Stella: I was a journalist. Yeah.  

Adam: What sort of journalist? 

Stella: I did print journalism and that.  

Adam: Local through the local newspapers? 

Stella: No, I worked in London for at least 10 years. I worked in London. I moved up to Sheffield and I was a copywriter. 

Adam: Right. So a very different world. So it wasn't wasn't about nature. You weren't. You weren't the environment correspondent or anything. 

Stella: It was very different. No, no, not at all. It's human interest stories, though. So I've always been interested in in people and communities, and that that's the thing that I've tried to embed in my work in forestry as well and trying to sort of help people connect to nature and understand that that connection a bit more. 

Adam: You've moved around the country and we've been talking about how important trees are to people in Sheffield in particular. Is that true? Is that your experience, that it is different here? 

Stella: Yes, they're very passionate about trees and that can go either way. So you know there's people that love them and people that are actually quite scared of them.  

Adam: Scared? Why? Why scared? 

Stella: Yeah, I think because a lot of people don't understand trees and they think they're going to fall over. They say things like, oh, look at, it's moving in the wind. And I sort of say, well, that's natural, that's how they grow, right? But obviously I wasn't taught that at school. So people don't have that general understanding about trees. So I try to sort of, I suppose, gently educate people if they do say negative things. Because I obviously do love trees and you know, I think they give us so much,  

Adam: And you said you work with a lot of schools. 

Stella: Yeah. 

Adam: Do you feel young people have a particularly different view of nature and trees than older generations? Do you see any distinction there at all? 

Stella: Yes, I think though, because of the climate emergency we're in, I think kids now are much more attuned with what's going on with you know, are the changes that are happening in our climate. So we do incorporate a little bit of education in our work with schools. So we talk to them about trees, why they're important, and we'll often let them answer. We won't tell them they'll put up their hands and say, well, because they give us oxygen or, you know, the animals need them. So I didn't know anything about that when I was at school. So I think that's probably quite a major change. 

Adam: You must know the area quite well, and there's lots of different parts of woodlands in and around Sheffield, so for those who are visiting, apart from this bit, where would you recommend? What's your favourite bits? 

Stella: Ohh well I I like the woods near me actually. So I I live in an area called Gleadless and Heely and there's there's Gleadless have have got various woodlands there. They're ancient woodlands and they're not very well known, but they're absolutely amazing. But the other famous one in Sheffield is Ecclesall Woods. Yes, it's very famous here. It's kind of the flagship ancient woodland. It's the biggest one in South Yorkshire. 

Adam: And you talked about getting into this industry in this career, you're both our our experts, both women that that is unusual. Most of the people I I meet working in this industry are men. Is that first of all is that true and is that changing? 

Stella: It is true. Yeah, I think it's currently about I'm. I'm also a board member and trustee of the Arboricultural Association, so I know some of these statistics around the membership of that organisation and I think there's. It's between about 11 and 15% of their members are women. So yes, it is male and it's also not very ethnically diverse either. I think it is changing and I think I can see that sometimes even when I'm working with kids. And you know, young girls who are you can see they're like really interested. And I sort of always say to them, you know, you can do, you can work with trees when you when you're grown up, you can have a job working with trees. And like a lot of sectors, I think traditionally men have dominated. And I think a lot of women sort of self-select themselves, edit them out of their options, really, cause you you're not told about these things. I mean, I'd never heard of arboriculture five years ago. 

Adam: We've we've just rejoined the riverbank. It's quite wide. So this is the Porters River? Porter Brook been told that so many times today I keep forgetting that the Porter River, no didn't quite get it right. Porter Brook. Is it normally this high? I mean it's properly going fast, isn't it? Think that's amazing. 

Stella: Yeah. So I was going to just have a chat with you a little bit about a project called Eat Trees Sheffield. 

Adam: Yes, OK. 

Stella: Yeah. So this is a project that was initiated by an organisation called Regather Cooperative, but they also are massive advocates of supporting a local sustainable food system and as part of that, it's harvesting apples. And they make a beautiful pasteurised apple juice from apples locally. 

Adam: From an actual planted orchard? 

Stella: No so well, they actually have just planted an orchard, but no, they basically accept donations from the community. 

Adam: So if someone's got an apple tree in their garden. They they pull off the apples and send it in. 

Stella: Yeah, well, they have to bring them in. Yeah. And they have to be in a certain condition that they're good for juicing, but yes. And then they get a proportion of the juice back the the people that have donated get some juice back.  

Adam: A fantastic idea. Fantastic.  

Stella: Yeah. And then they obviously sell the juice as part of their more commercial offering. But yeah. 

Adam: That's wonderful. So if you, if you've got a couple of apple trees in your garden, and you live around the Sheffield area, what's the the name of the charity? 

Stella: It's called Regather Cooperative. So, we're trying to create a network of people that, basically, can be connected to each other and build skills to look after these orchards because they do need looking after and valuing. They're very important, so yeah. 

Adam: Yeah, sort of connects people to their very local trees. It's interesting. I have a a very good friend of mine in London. Who does sort of guerilla gardening. And on the the street trees has just planted runner beans and things coming up so so you know it just grows up. You can see people walking down and going oh, are those beans hanging off the trees? and you she you know, just pops out and grabs some and goes and cooks with them. And you know I'm not. I always think. I'm not sure I'd want to eat some some stuff from this street tree because God knows how. What happens there? But I I love the idea. I think it's a really fun idea. 

Stella: So it's just it's been nice meeting you. 

Adam: Well, same here. So we're back, we're back by the river. 

Catherine: By the river all along the river.  

Adam: All along, so yes. Final thoughts?  

Catherine: Yeah. So I mean, it's been so great to have, you know, have you visit Sheffield today, Adam. Like, it's always such a privilege to to show people around kind of the bits of our city that are so beautiful. Well, I think, you know, just this walk today in the Porter Valley and the fact that there's so many trees where there used to be industry is something that Sheffield's had going for it I think throughout the whole of its history. The the woodlands were originally so important to be the green lungs of the city - that was really recognised at the turn of the 20th century. But now if you go into the city centre, there's projects like Grey to Green, which is basically where they used to be a very, rather ugly road running round the back of the city centre, which has now been converted into 1.5 kilometres of active travel routes, and there the space has been made for trees. So instead of roads now there's kind of special soil and trees and plants and grasses and things like that. They're like, they look amazing, but also they help to combat climate change. So when the rains fall like they have done at the moment, the trees slow down all the flow of the water going into the River Don, it stops Rotherham from flooding further down. But it also helps well it also encourages people to visit the city centre and enjoy the shade of the trees and, you know, takes up some of the pollution that's in the city. And I think it's, you know, this kind of new kind of thinking where we're actually not just looking after the woods we've already got and letting it grow. Actually making new spaces for trees, which I find really exciting and you know, hopefully that's going to be the future of not just Sheffield, but lots of cities around the country. 

Adam: That's a brilliant thought to end on. Thank you very much for a fantastic day out and I was worried that it would be really wet and horrible and actually, yet again it's been quite pretty, the snow and it's only rained a little bit on us. Look, a squirrel.  

Adam: Well, I hope you enjoyed that visit to one of Sheffield's open wooded spaces, and if you want to find a wood near you, you can do so by going to the Woodland Trust website woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. Until next time, happy wanderings. 

Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special. Or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you. 

This was certainly an episode with a difference - we begin in a Natural History Museum packed with 4,000 taxidermy animals! The Woodland Trust site and museum now share space once owned by the famous Rothschild family who collected stuffed species, as well as live exotic animals that roamed the park. We tour Tring Park's fascinating historic features, from the avenue named after visitor Charles II to the huge stone monument rumoured to be for his famous mistress. Beneath autumn-coloured boughs, we also learn how young lime trees grown from the centuries-old lime avenue will continue the site's history, how cows help manage important chalk grassland and the vital role of veteran trees and deadwood in the healthy ecosystem.

Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk

Transcript

You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people, for wildlife.

Adam: Today I'm heading off to Tring Park, one of Hertfordshire's most important ecological areas. It's filled, I'm told, with wildflowers and some really interesting historic features, as well as some stunning views. But first but first, I was told to stop off at the Natural History Museum at Tring, which is really a very, very short walk from the woodland itself. I was told to do that because they said it might surprise you what you find. It definitely did that. Because here are rows and rows of what I'm told are historically important stuffed animals. So I'm at the the top bit of the the galleries here at the Natural History Museum at Tring and well, bonkers I think is a probably good word to describe this place and I mean, I feel very mixed about it. So we're, I'm passing some very weird fish, that's a louvar, never heard of that. But there's a a rhinoceros, white rhinoceros, a Sumatran rhinoceros. There's a dromedary, a camel. There is a rather small giraffe. There is a head of a giraffe. Coming round over here, there is an Indian swordfish from the Indian Ocean. Goodness gracious, it looks like something from Harry Potter. That's an eel, very scary looking eel. And then there is a giant armadillo and it really properly is giant, an extinct relative of the living armadillos, known from the Pleistocene era and that's the period of the Ice Age, from North and South America, that is absolutely extraordinary. And there are some very, very weird things around here. Anyway, that's certainly not something you'd expect to see in Tring. Goodness knows what the locals made of it back in the Victorian ages, of course this would have been their only experience of these kind of animals. No Internet, no television, so this really was an amazing insight into the world, beyond Britain, beyond Tring. There is something here, a deep sea anglerfish which looks like it's got coral out of its chin. I mean, it's properly something from a horror movie that is, that is extraordinary.

Claire: My name is Claire Walsh and I'm the exhibitions and interpretation manager here at the Natural History Museum at Tring, and my job involves looking after all of the exhibitions that you see on display and any temporary exhibitions such as Wildlife Photographer of the Year.

Adam: So this is a rather unusual place. I have only just had a very brief look and I've never seen anything quite like it. So just explain to our listeners what it is that we're seeing, what what is this place?

Claire: So the Natural History Museum at Tring is the brainchild of Lionel Walter Rothschild, who was a member of the Rothschild banking dynasty. Walter Rothschild, as as we call him, was gifted the museum by his parents as a 21st birthday present.

Adam: That's quite a birthday, who gets a museum for their 21st? That's quite something.

Claire: Yes, yeah, so, so the family were a hugely wealthy family and Walter's parents owned Tring Park Mansion, which is the the the the big house next door to the museum, which is now a performing arts school, the land of which was formerly a a big deer park, and the Woodland Trust land and our museum is all part of that sort of estate.

Adam: And so this is a Natural History Museum. But as I was saying, it's not like when I've seen normally. So explain to me what it is that differentiates this from other museums people might be acquainted with.

Claire: So we have over 4,000 taxidermied animals on display from all over the world, some of the finest examples of Victorian taxidermy in the world and you can see everything on display from dressed fleas all the way through to wallabies, large deers, birds from all over the world. It really is an absolutely amazing place.

Adam: I've never heard of the species called dressed fleas. Is that a species or is it fleas which have got frocks on?

Claire: So these are fleas that have little outfits on so our our particular dressed fleas have little sombreros. They're from Mexico dressed fleas. We're very fortunate to have them on display and they're they are some of the most popular things in the museum.

Adam: *laughs* Extraordinary. Yeah, I'll go stop and have a look at those. Now, but there was, am I right in saying that that Walter Rothschild in the sort of posh manor, actually had weird animals rolling around, these aren't just stuffed animals, you know, live weird animals, unusual animals, just part of the park?

Claire: Yeah, so to take you back a little bit, Walter Rothschild first became really interested in natural history when he was about 7 and and he then decided to set up the museum. So throughout his teenage years, he started collecting different animals, living and dead. And the park at Tring was home to a lot of the animals so in in the park were lots and lots of living animals that he he kind of just kept there roaming free, so he had things like rheas, cassowaries, ostriches, emus, kangaroos.

Adam: I, I've seen a picture, I think I've seen a picture of him in a sort of horse drawn carriage, except it's drawn by zebras.

Claire: Yeah, so so he decided to train zebras to draw his carriage. So he started off with one zebra and then sort of moved on to having three zebras and a and a pony and he actually took the carriage along Regent Street all the way through the mall in London to Buckingham Palace where where the zebras met the Queen, which was a bit sort of worrying for Rothschild because actually zebras are really difficult to train and quite flighty sort of animals so he's a bit worried about the Queen petting his zebras and and something going wrong, but fortunately it was all fine. The zebras did come out to Tring when they retired as well, so they were also sort of roaming about. I think what you need to imagine is Tring at the time was a really kind of provincial country town, there was a lot farming going on and the Rothschilds came with this, massive amounts of wealth, but they really embedded themselves within the local community and and did lots of, you know, really helped people out. But Walter then started introducing all these animals into the park. He was really interested in adaptation of of different species of animals, so he actually rented out the island of Alhambra in the Seychelles to protect the giant tortoises, but also in Tring you have all of these different exotic animals from all around the world and I can't imagine what it must have been like to just be an ordinary agricultural labourer living in Tring and having the opportunity to walk through the park and just se all these amazing animals that you wouldn't have had the opportunity to see because there's no television.

Adam: It's a really interesting back story to it, but I wonder what you feel about the purpose of the museum and this collection now, when there's a sense I already feel a bit uncomfortable going, is this quite right to be watching stuffed animals, is this in keeping with our modern sensibilities? What's your view on that?

Claire: So our mission really is to educate people about biodiversity and to to ensure that our future generations become advocates for the planet. So we do this by, you know, trying to instil the importance and the wonder and beauty of nature within our collections and tell people about the things that are vanishing. We have lots of extinct and endangered animals on display, which we highlight to our visitors and and you know, to try and get them to understand that they need to look after the natural world today, and obviously our collections are incredibly scientifically important. We have researchers come from all over the world to visit Tring and to study their collections and you know, really make a difference to to our planet in terms of understanding how populations of animals have increased or decreased through time. You know, sort of engage with people and educate people so they look after the planet going forwards.

Adam: And explain to me a little bit about your relationship or the museum's relationship with the Woodland Trust, then.

Claire: So we have a really good relationship with the Woodland Trust. We work hand in hand with them, we share our our sort of knowledge between both of our organisations and advocate for, for you know, the good work that we both do.

Adam: I'm going to have a quick look around before we go off to the to the woodland itself. What's your favourite animal here? What's the favourite thing you think you'd direct me to?

Claire: Oh my goodness, you've put me on the spot there. I mean, I really love all the animals in the museum. I think the thylacine is really worth going to have a look at.

Adam: OK, thylacine, never heard of it.

Claire: So the thylacine is an extinct animal. It's an example of something called convergent evolution, where it looks very much like a dog, but it's actually a marsupial. It lived in Australia. So that's upstairs in gallery 5.

Adam: OK, that's where I'll be heading next. Thank you very much. Well, having finished my tour inside the museum, I'm off, it really is just across the road, to the woodland itself to meet my guide for the day.

Grace: My name is Grace Davis, I'm an assistant site manager at the Woodland Trust, I help to manage our woods in Hertfordshire and Essex.

Adam: So we're very lucky. It was raining when I left home. It is not raining, so I don't want to tempt fate but I do want to offer my thanks to whatever power that be. Where are we? Why are we here?

Grace: We're at Tring Park in Hertfordshire. It's just next to the town of Tring. It's 130 hectares of grassland and woodland. It's famous for its chalk grassland and has been designated a SSSI.

Adam: Right. And we were just walking down an avenue really weren't we and you were telling me they're lime trees because I couldn't spot it, but I did have a quick look on my app and just, maybe everyone else knows this, but apparently the nickname for Brits is the limeys, I think Australians call us limeys and it was because the lime trees were made, were used to make ships. And I think the Australians thought they weren't great wood for trees and sort of nicknamed us limeys. Anyway, there's a little bit of a side note. We passed some cows, rather docile cows. What what are they doing here?

Grace: We've got a a number of cows that graze here most of the year, so they really help us to manage the scrub on the chalk grassland. If nature had its way, the the grassland here would eventually convert to be woodland, which isn't a bad thing but because of the SSSI designation of the chalk grassland here, and because it's a very rare habitat internationally, we really need to manage the scrub and any trees from from taking over, so the cattle are here to browse, to keep the the growth in check of the hawthorn, the blackthorn, the the scrubby species that really want to take over.

Adam: And we passed, just a bit of practical information with people, we passed a little area where I saw a lot of tree planting going on, but also that's going to be a new car park is that right?

Grace: That's right. So we've actually got Tring Park itself on a 400-year lease from the council after it was threatened in the nineties to be turned into a golf course, but we've also invested in this site by converting a patch of land to a car park for 50 spaces, and we hope that that car park will be open soon, very soon, and the one of the real benefits of it is it will provide a level access into the into the grassland, whereas at the moment people generally have to walk over the bridge across the very busy A41 but with the new car park, people will be able to park and walk straight into the grassland. So it will be great for anyone with a pushchair or mobility scooter.

Adam: Fantastic. Now we're we're on a bit of a hill on this path going towards, past the cows on my right, going towards the trees themselves Right just before we head off there here's a Woodland Trust little bit of signage which I don't quite understand, it's a wooden post with a foot cut out of it. It is Walter's Wander. Walter moved into rooms at Magdalene College with a flock of kiwis, which were soon rehoused and cared for by a local taxidermist. Yeah, I'm not sure a taxidermist cares for animals much. I'm sure he cares, or she cares about her work, but I'm not sure that's the the verb of the job of a taxidermist. Anyway, yeah, so this is Walter's Wander, and it is Walter Rothschild.

Grace: That's right yeah so this is this is showing a link between Tring Park and the museum of which Walter Rothschild is famous for having his his taxidermy there.

Adam: I mean, he proper barmy. He, Magdalene College, he was a student at university and he brought with him a flock of kiwis. I mean, my kids went to university, they weren't allowed to have a kettle in their room, let alone a flock of kiwis. Better times, eh, let's bring those back! Right off we go. Let's go. This is this is, look, I'll get this wrong, is this hawthorn on the left?

Grace: This is hawthorn, yes.

Adam: Ohh top marks for Adam *laughs* Top marks for Adam, OK.

Grace: We've got dog rose on the right, hawthorn again.

Adam: Oh you see, you're you're showing off, just cause I got one right, you've gotta get more right than me. *both laugh* OK, off we go.

Grace: So some of the plants that we have here growing on the chalk grassland have got fantastic names such as fairy flax, birdsfoot trefoil, lady's bedstraw, salad burnet and you know they've all got different colours, so white, yellows, purple. So if you visit here in spring or summer, there's just beautiful shades of colour all around the park.

Adam: They're wildflowers are they?

Grace: Yes, that's right and they're they they they they're specialist to chalk grassland. In fact, up to 40 species of chalk grassland plants can grow in one square metre, which is quite astonishing.

Adam: I was taken by lady's bedstraw. Did ladies use it for their beds?

Grace: I believe it was dried and used in mattresses.

Adam: Blimey. Not just for ladies, gentlemen too, presumably.

Grace: *laughs* Maybe

Adam: Who knows, maybe it was only for ladies. Let's do some research. OK. So we're heading uphill as you can probably hear from my laboured breathing to a wooden gate up there and that that leads us into a more densely wooded area does it?

Grace: Yes, that's right so that's the mature woodland up there. And we'll be we'll be leading on to the King Charles Ride, which is quite interesting for its connection with King Charles II.

Adam: So what tell me whilst we're walking up, you can talk which will mean people can't hear me panting. Tell tell me about King Charles Ride.

Grace: So Tring actually used to belong to King Charles II's wife. Catherine of Braganza, I think was her name. So King Charles is known to have visited the area and the avenue was named after him, and it's also heavily rumoured that his famous mistress Nell Gwynn came here with him on certain visits. She may well have lived in Tring during a typhus outbreak in London. There's also a monument here that is rumoured to be dedicated to her, which would make it the only public monument in the country to be dedicated to a royal mistress.

Adam: Wow, good knowledge.

Grace: I've got my notes *laughs*

Adam: If only this comes up in Trivial Pursuit. I go where's the only monument to a royal mistress? And I'll get, I'll astound people at dinner parties. Good stuff. So we're taking a little break and I've turned around and actually it's it's beautiful looking back, we're up at the top of a a small valley we can see a road ahead of us that will be the A something, A41 says my expert and the sun is cutting through greyish clouds hitting the fields, green fields and the hills beyond the A41. And it looks really pretty. I mean, it's an interesting point, isn't it, that that people, the clue's in the name, the Woodland Trust, people feel it's about, get as many trees in the ground as possible. But it's not quite like that is it, because here in this particular patch you're doing what you can to prevent trees growing?

Grace: That's right. I mean, scrub, scrub and woodland are obviously fantastic habitats for a range of species. But but chalk grassland really needs a low, low, low sward so a short height of the,

Adam: Low sward, what's sward?

Grace: Sward is the height of the the grass and the plants. So you can see it's quite low because the cattle are browsing it. So we need to keep that low. And the cattle will browse, they will eat like the young hawthorn and blackthorn and things coming through. They won't touch, really the the bigger, more established patches. But they'll keep the young stuff from coming through, and they'll reduce the competition of more dominant weeds like dandelion and things from from coming through. They they grow very fast and they will shade out and outcompete the slower growing rare chalk grassland species.

Adam: And I mean, as we're sitting here and it's sort of mid-October-ish. We're starting to see the trees change colour aren't they, you can see in the lower bits they're not this uniform green. We've got reds and yellows and coppers just coming out. It is this time of change in the year, isn't it?

Grace: That's right, yeah, it's quite beautiful, actually, at this time of year. Although we're saying we don't have the colours of the of the chalk grassland plants at the moment, but we do have the lovely changing colours of the trees. Yeah so this area here was enclosed about 300 years ago by by fencing, presumably, which which meant that a lot of the habitat was kept intact. It wasn't developed on and it's preserved the historic landscape as well of the area, and in fact it's, Tring Park is a Grade II historic parkland because of the ornamental park and garden features, which we'll we'll we'll see some of as we get to the top.

Adam: Lovely. Have we rested enough?

Grace: Yeah, let's push on.

Adam: Push on.

Grace: It will be muddy this next bit, but it's not for very long.

Adam: OK. Ohh you can, you might be able to hear the sound effects of this getting very muddy.

Grace: Yes, claggy.

Adam: We've come into well, we're on a path, a little clearing and there is a mighty, mighty tree. But it's it's certainly dead. But it looks like something from a Harry Potter movie, The Witches or Macbeth, something like that. What's the story there?

Grace: Well that's a tree perhaps it was struck by lightning, or it's just decayed you know, with old age. That's what we would call a veteran tree. So it's got wonderful cavity at the base there, it's got fungi growing on it. It's got the the top is all split off. It's open, open at the top for birds to nest in. You know, we we really do like to keep as much deadwood on a site as possible. It's just fantastic for invertebrates, bugs, beetles, fungi. There's about 2,000 invertebrate species that are reliant on dead or decaying woods, so you know, we're really working at the at the base of the ecosystem to get those small creatures into the woodland ecosystem for, you know, birds, mammals to to then eat and forming the wonderful woodland ecology that we that we need.

Adam: So it it's not a good idea to clear away these things and make everything look neat. It's actually it's part of the ecosystem. There's it's funny cause you can't see anything that you know, there's no leaves on it or anything, but you're saying there's lots of animals actually dependent on that dead wood.

Grace: That's right. Yeah. Really, it's really. That's right. If we had a closer look, we'd see all sorts of small bugs and beetles and crawly, creepy, crawly things. There may well be bats that roost in there, birds that nest in there, probably fungi around the base and at the cavities.

Adam: Right. And that's supporting other animals who need to eat on that and and the soil itself obviously, which is increasingly a big issue, isn't it?

Grace: That's right. Yeah, of course, well that, that, that tree will eventually decay into the soil and the soil health of woodland is really really important.

Adam: Yeah, I mean, that's an increasingly big issue for people, isn't it? We don't we don't think about much about the soil, we look above the soil, but the soil health is a huge concern and and increasing issue for people to maintain, isn't it?

Grace: That's right. I mean, the trees will come and go over hundreds of years but the soil will remain, and it's got those nutrients that have built up for hundreds and hundreds of years, especially in an ancient woodland, so it it's really the soil that is the most important thing in an ancient woodland.

Adam: And remind me this is something I definitely should know but, is is there a definition of ancient woodland? Is there a cut off period?

Grace: Yeah, it's trees that date back to the the 1600s, which is really when records began of mapping out the country and what the land uses were.

Adam: Right, OK. And we're just going up, here are two or three felled trees. We've gotta turn right here have we?

Grace: That's right yeah.

Adam: They look like they've been cut down just left or no, they're very black. Is that fire or something?

Grace: I think that's just water from the, from the rain, because that tree there is very dark isn't it.

Adam: Right, oh yeah, that's dark. So we've come up to the top of the hill, or is there much, is there another hill?

Grace: No, no, no, no more hills. Maybe just gently undulating, but no more hills.

Adam: OK, right. So we're at the top of the hill. But I see a regal path ahead. I can imagine myself in my zebra drawn carriage riding down here, waving, if not at my people, then at my trees. So is this all in my imagination or is this is this the King Charles road?

Grace: I'm not sure if the zebras made it up here, but this is known as the King Charles Ride, named after Charles II, we're also on the Ridgeway Trail, which is Britain's oldest road.

Adam: Sorry, this this road I'm standing on now?

Grace: That's right yeah, this, this, this stretch is part of an 87-mile national trail that stretches from Buckinghamshire to Wiltshire. It would have been used by drovers, traders, soldiers for at least 5,000 years.

Adam: Gosh, that's extraordinary.

Grace: So if if if, if, if one is so inclined, you can walk from Buckinghamshire to Wiltshire, or do it in reverse, taking in wonderful views, and you know, walking in vhy many hundreds of years of ancestors' footprints.

Adam: Yeah. And and how many times have you done that walk then?

Grace: *laughs* Zero. But I would like to do it one day.

Adam: One day. OK. Well, you could do it in bits. I'll do I'll do the first kilometre with you.

Grace: Lots of people do do it in bits. They park up, they walk a stretch and they get somebody to pick them up at the other end and take them back to their car. But actually I was I was on site here in the summer and I heard some like tinkling bells and looked up and it was two guys with huge backpacks and they were walking from the start of the Ridgeway Trail all the way to the Avebury standing stones in Wiltshire for the summer solstice.

Adam: Blimey. How long would that, do you know how long that would have taken them?

Grace: I don't know actually. Maybe a couple of weeks.

Adam: Wow. And they had tinkling bells. I think you just sort of threw that in, which I think is that might get on my nerves with two weeks of walking with someone with a tinkling bell. Any idea why they were, were they just magical folk?

Grace: They looked a little bit magical, but also I think it was day one so they might have ditched the tinkling bells after day one.

Adam: Well, and actually we should, that's extraordinary, but I want to stop here because there's another felled tree and you were talking about the importance of actually decaying wood and even to the semi untrained eye like mine, we've got a tree trunk lying on its side and the roots of a tree still embedded covered in moss, but also fungi all over the place here. I mean, this is it's not a dead bit of wood at all really is it, it's hosting a huge amount of life.

Grace: Yeah, it's absolutely living. Numerous fungi, species and bracket fungi here on the side. Smaller, smaller ones down there, you can see like the holes where beetles and different invertebrates are getting into the deadwood, what what, which is getting softer and softer over time. Ahhuge cavity over there, which could be used for all sorts of species.

Adam: Looks like an elephant's foot at the bottom, doesn't it? Really does, amazing. Amazing that. Ah, OK. Back to the path. And we are, I mean, look, it's actually quite nice weather at a time of year where the weather isn't going to stay with us much and we are the only people. And I can see all the way down the King Charles Avenue and yes, just us, just us. All right, now we've had to stop because you got very excited about something you said 'Stop!'. So why?

Grace: That's right yeah so these are young lime trees that have originally come from the veteran lime trees we saw at the avenue at the start of our walk. So we've we've propagated, we've taken the seed from those veteran limes and we've grown them on into these young lime trees which we've planted up here because those those lime trees on the lime avenue they're not gonna live forever. They've hopefully got many hundreds of years left, but we want to continue their historic link to the site so this is seed from those very trees that we've planted up here on the King Charles Ride.

Adam: And since, I mean, lime is obviously there's a lot of lime trees we've already been talking about that here. Just give me a as part of our online tree identity course, how do you spot a lime?

Grace: So you you can tell a lime generally from the quite heart shape of its leaf, and they do also have quite quite unique looking seed pods as well.

Adam: They've got little things on them. They flutter around to help them fly, like I always think of them as mini helicopters but anyway. OK, great.

Grace: There's a word for those things I can't think what they're called.

Adam: Yeah. Well, we'll, we'll call them mini helicopters and see if it catches on.

Grace: Yeah, yeah, yeah *laughs*

Adam: Yes, it's getting spookily dark under the canopy here, so these are clearly not lime trees. What sort of trees are these?

Grace: We've got a lot of mature yew trees here which are causing quite a bit of shade at the moment across the ride.

Adam: Yeah. So you showed you showed me how to spot a lime. How do you know these are yew trees?

Grace: So yews have got these needle-like leaves a little bit like a Christmas tree sort of leaf. But but needles and they also have usually very sort of gnarly, flaky bark and red berries. Hopefully we'll see some, that would be quite fun, they're quite a quite an interesting shape.

Adam: And yew trees are some of the oldest living trees, aren't they?

Grace: They can live a very long time, yes.

Adam: I thought, is it, I might be getting confused but I thought is it yew trees that often get planted in graveyards.

Grace: Yeah, that's right. Yes.

Adam: And I think, I mean, who knows? I think I've heard examples, you know in the thousand, 1,000 year old or or even more which is properly ancient.

Grace: Yes. I believe they were there before the graveyards,

Adam: Ohh I see it was the other way round.

Grace: Yeah, that's what I've read because the yews were connected to Paganism and the, the, the, the, I believe the churchyards were built on these sort of sacred or spiritual sites where the trees were already in place.

Adam: Right. Yes, must have something to do with rebirth or longevity of, you know, I'm I'm sure I've heard of a yew tree being 2,000 years old, so you're thinking, God you know, there's a yew tree from the age of Jesus Christ which really think, makes you ponder doesn't it, but that's I didn't realise you thought it was the other way around, I thought they planted yew trees in graveyards rather than they built graveyards around yew trees, but it makes more sense in some ways. So we're taking a little path to the left. I say little it's also rather grand, to be honest. But I know why I'm being taken down here cause at the end I can see a stone monument of some description. So I'll see what it is when I get there and you can hear the time of year, the leaves are falling, you might be able to hear that rustle. So this is an unexpected find, we come into another clearing and there is a huge stone monument. Grace, what on earth, what is this?

Grace: This is the obelisk. It's a it's one of two Scheduled Ancient Monuments here, we'll see the other one shortly. It was built in in the early 18th century, so it's contemporary with the the the start of the parkland here. And probably designed by the architect James Gibbs. And it's said to be dedicated to Nell Gwynn.

Adam: I mean, there's nothing on it, when you said you were taking me to see something dedicated to Nell Gwynn, you'd think they'd have a blooming statue of Nell Gwynn. It's, I mean, but it is huge and it's got a a round bauble at the top, I'm just going round it to see if there's any markings on the base, which there isn't. So maybe maybe this was a sort of you know, I'm going to publicly recognise you with this enormous monument, but because you're not the queen, I can't put your name on it. Amazing. Oh, my goodness, I'm turning around and there's another stunning thing at the end of this pathway, it's just full of surprises. So this looks like a Palladian villa at the end of this pathway, so is this also to Nell Gwyn but says nothing about her on it?

Grace: No, I no, I don't think so. This is the summer house. The other Scheduled Ancient Monument here, again designed by the same architect. Well, we'll see when we get there, but it it looks certainly very impressive from the front, but we'll see more up close what lies behind.

Adam: Ohh, you see, you're teasing me now *both laugh* Why she goes ohh what's, what does lie behind that villa? Alright. Let's go find out. You said go go at the back. There's something. It looks like it's very crowded at the back. Let's have a look. Ohh, there's nothing to it. There isn't a back. It's just a facade.

Grace: That's right. The facade is all that remains now.

Adam: There, there, there was more to it was there?

Grace: There was more. It was it was an actual building, it was lived in by a gamekeeper and and his son in the 19th century.

Adam: What a house for a gamekeeper. It's fit for a king. That's extraordinary.

Grace: But it was demolished to make way for the Wiggington Road, which you might be able to hear in the background.

Adam: Oh, how disappointing. Nonetheless a very nice pied-a-terre.

Grace: It looks like an ancient temple from the front.

Adam: It does. I just need a bit, you know, 4 foot at the back, I'll move in. Very nice. Now this has properly been a real treat, but modern life is intervening not only in the shape of the cars you might hear in background, but I have a Teams call with some TV producers I have to meet in about half an hour and they will be not and they will not be amused if I say I'm lost in a wood. So modern life as ever drags you back, what's the way home Grace?

Grace: I'll I'll I'll walk you back, don't worry.

Adam: Thank you, thank you, you're not going to just leave me to follow a trail of breadcrumbs back to the car. Well, that was quite a trip. If you want to visit Tring Park, it is on the A41, 30 miles North West of London and if you go to the Woodland Trust website, type in Tring Park, you'll find lots of other ways of getting there by bus, by train, on foot, by bicycle and even the What 3 Words location to use as well. And if you want to find a wood nearer you than Tring Park, well type into your search engine of choice Woodland Trust find a wood and you'll find one near you. Until next time, happy wandering.

Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you.

Sheltering from the rain under a yew tree in a Shrewsbury churchyard, we chat to 'Tree Pilgrim' Martin Hügi, the Trust's outreach manager in the South East. He's taken a four-month sabbatical to walk from Land's End to John O'Groats and visit thousands of incredible trees along the way. Hear Martin on awe-inspiring trees that have rendered him speechless, the vital Ancient Tree Inventory that helped plan the route, the value of 'plugging in' to nature and what's in his kit bag! We also hear from Adele, who explains that old trees like those on Martin's pilgrimage are not protected or prioritised like our built heritage. Find out what you can do to help.

Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk

Transcript

You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people, for wildlife. 

Adam: Today I am off to meet the Tree Pilgrim, which is the moniker of Martin Hugi, who is doing a proper marathon pilgrimage from Land's End to John O'Groats using the Woodland Trust's Ancient Tree Inventory, so you're gonna visit a huge number of ancient and veteran trees, something like 6,500 of them he's expecting along his walk and I caught up with him in Shrewsbury in Shropshire, which is just on the River Severn about 150 miles or thereabouts, north, north west of London, and I caught up with him at a rather rainy churchyard. This is very unusual because normally I join people on walks, but actually you've been walking for what, what day is it? 

Martin: I'm on day... 79 today  

Adam: You had to think about that! 

Martin: I had to think about that. 

Adam: Yeah. So this is so you've actually taken a break and you've come into Shrewsbury and we're, we're we are in a green space in a churchyard where, now we're we're here for a special reason. Why? 

Martin: So last night I was giving a talk, talking about ancient trees and the the need for greater protection and just telling my story of what I've been up to. 

Adam: Right, well, first of all tell me a bit about this pilgrimage you're going on. 

Martin: Yeah. So I'm calling it an ancient tree pilgrimage and it is a walk from Land's End to John O'Groats and I spent 12 months planning meticulously a route between some of the most amazing trees that I could fit into a north-south route and working out the detail of how I wassgoing to get to those trees via other trees on the Ancient Tree Inventory. 

Adam: So the Land's End to John O'Groats, which that walk, famous sort of trip which is called LEGO for short, is it? 

Martin: LEJOG, or JOGLE if you go the other way. 

Adam: LEJOG, right OK, LEJOG. 

Martin: Land's End to John O'Groats. 

Adam: OK. It's long if you do it straight, but you've gone, gone a sort of wiggly woggly way, haven't you? Because you're going actually via interesting trees. So how many miles is that gonna be? 

Martin: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Well, it's if you're going to go a sort of more classic route, it would be something like 1,080 or 1,100 sort of miles. The route that I've planned is 2,077 miles. 

Adam: Wow. 

Martin: So it's double. 

Adam: 2,077 mile walk. 

Martin: Yeah, I had estimated doing 18 miles a day. That would be, that was my average. I'd sort of planned rough stops where I thought I might be able to get to. I'm more doing about 13 miles a day, which is not a lot less, but it's, I'm spending more time with the trees. And I, we also we lost our our dog on the day that I was setting off. We went down to Penzance to start and we took our our old family dog with us and he was very old and and elderly and he actually died on the morning that I was going to set off. So we just drove back home and didn't fancy starting again for another couple of weeks. So if you can be behind on a pilgrimage, I was already 2 weeks behind, but actually, I'm on a pilgrimage, so it's it's it's about the journey.  

Adam: Would you say you're a religious person? 

Martin: Not in the classic sense of an organised religion, but I, I do have a spiritual side to me for sure. Yeah.  

Adam: And what difference then, you you talk about this tree pilgrimage and it not being about the distance, it's about the journey, which, you know, one often hears. What, if anything, have you learnt about your feelings for the natural world, or what you think it can offer you, or what you can offer it during this journey so far? 

Martin: Yeah, I think I'm learning about my connection with nature and ancient trees and the sites that they sit in as being good places to access that connection. So one of the stories that I tell is about meeting the Majesty Oak in Fredville Park in Kent. And we went with a conservation trip with work and it's just such an incredible tree at it's 12.5 metre girth and a maiden oak. And it just goes straight up and it's just it's, it's, it's bulk, it's sheer dominance and size literally blew my mind to the point where I was speechless for a couple of minutes and I wasn't the only one, and because I think it it just it takes you out of the ordinary state of 'this is what a tree is' and it put me into a state of, this is something different, and it was a a real feeling of awe and I get that from ancient trees, I sometimes I will feel awe and that's a a rare feeling in my life and potentially a lot of people's lives. And I think that's well, that's what I'm seeking, I suppose, but it's almost like a gateway feeling for other potential feelings that you can cultivate around nature and trees. Just things like respect and gratitude, and I've actually found myself thanking some of the trees because of, they're just full, so full of life and and they're persisting and the resilience and feeling actual gratitude that they persist and doing what they do. 

Adam: And you must meet a lot of people on your walk. 70 odd days in so far, they must ask you what on Earth you're doing and must give you some sort of response. What, have people been surprised, shocked, do they think you're nuts? Do they go 'can I join you'? What's been the response? 

Martin: All of those things, I suppose. Yeah, I'll, I'll sort of tell them what I'm doing and and as soon as I get to Ancient Tree Inventory, I get a blank look.  

Adam: OK. Well, you say lots of people don't know about this, let's talk about this. First of all, what is it, and then how do people get involved? 

Martin: Yes. So it is a citizen science project, it's an open publicly accessible data set of ancient trees across the UK. 

Adam: And so I could, I mean, for instance, today if we think we found this ancient tree, we would go on the register and go, here it is, we think it's a, you know, a an ancient oak or what whatever it is and we measure its girth, its its width at about do you do it about 3 metres high? Is that what you meant to do? 

Martin: It's 1.5 metres. 

Adam: So only twice wrong *laughs* there we are, well a good margin of error. Yeah, 3 metres is too high. No, I'm short as it is, overblown idea of how tall I am. So 1.5 metres high you sort of take a tape measure and you measure it and you say you you think you you know what it is, you give it a good go and there's lots of online apps you can help you. And you sort of make comments about the tree. You sort of say it's in this sort of condition, but you don't have to be an expert, it is just fine to give it give it a go.  

Martin: Absolutely and and actually you don't need a tape measure, you can you can make an estimate and if you don't know what the tree is exactly or don't know what it is at all, you can still add it to the inventory and it will, it won't appear as a public facing record at that point, but it will show up to an ancient tree verifier, a volunteer ancient tree verifier. It will show up as an unverified tree and and I I am an ancient tree verifier, since 2008, and I'll be able to see that there's an unverified tree here and I can go along, I can say, well, it is an oak and I can measure it if I can measure it, if it's possible. And I can record other details about the tree like its veteran characteristics. 

Adam: So already, I mean I don't get too bogged down into all of this, but I get notable trees like an event has happened under them, and there's lots of amazing trees where the Magna Carta was signed under one the Tolpuddle Martyr, the first ever union was created under a tree, so there's lots of historically important trees like that. But the the difference between veteran and ancient, is there a clear distinction between those? 

Martin: No, in a way it's a subjective thing, but there is guidelines. There are, for different species, there are graphs saying if it's over this sort of girth you you would, it would be erring into an ancient tree. And and different species and different growth rates so there'll be different sizes. My, so a sort of colloquial definition is it's a tree that makes you go wow, would be an ancient tree and be that awe inspiring sort of feeling. But then also an ancient tree is one where you can see that it's been through multiple stages of growth, and what you'd say as a development phase for a tree, so an oak tree for example, you'd be able to see that it's it's, it's gone up and it's done it's mature oak, it's lost limbs and then it's shrunk back down again and then it's gone back up again and then it's come back down again and it's gone back up again and you can see that history in the shape and form of an ancient tree. So an ancient tree is a veteran tree. It's just that it's been a veteran multiple times and it's gone through them. 

Adam: And presumably it's different for different species, because I mean, we're looking at a couple of yews, I mean, a yew tree can last 2,000 years. So what might be old for a yew tree is very different, might be old for a cherry tree, for instance. So you you can't apply the same rule for all trees, presumably. 

Martin: You can apply that same thinking and principle to all trees that, has it been through multiple stages of life and development. Yew trees for sure are some of the oldest living trees. Something that's really stood out to me in Powys, in Wales and, is how they will put roots down into the inside of their decaying stems. Roots go down, they're called adventitious roots, and it's literally feeding off of the decaying body of itself and then those adventitious roots become stems, and I've seen this over and over, and again in some of the oldest yews that, the internal stems are adventitious roots and the outside of the tree is decayed and and hollow and and so in theory a yew tree is potentially immortal. You know, they just go on and on because you you can see some of these big stems that will have adventitious roots inside them, but that big stem might have been an adventitious route originally, so they're just incredible trees and and all trees will do that. 

Adam: And so why is it important that this thing exists? I mean, why why make a register of ancient trees, apart from the fact you might want like quite like an excuse to go around the country listing them, which I I get that might be fun, but why is it important? 

Martin: I think there are, there's there's several reasons, really. I mean, apart from, I mean a simple one would be cultural and social history and the heritage as part of our our common collective heritage. But then there's also from a some more sort of biological view, they are old genetics, they're old genes that have persisted, so they're adapted to their conditions, who knows how many offspring they've generated and the genetics that that tree came from, you know, going back into millennia, so I think they're an important reserve of genetic history. They're also nodes of undisturbed soils, so they obviously clearly have been there such a long time that the roots and the mycorrhizal associations under the ground and the complexity of life that is in that area, it's like a node of of life and of part of our landscape that hasn't changed and that is an incredibly important place, akin to ancient woodland soils. 

Adam: And the whole the whole idea about ancient woodland itself is that you can't replace tree for tree, you can't knock down an ancient tree and and put in a new tree and it be as environmentally beneficial, so it's surely it's important because if we know about how to modify our landscape, if we're, whether where we should build new homes or or or anything, then actually it's important to know what we're disturbing, you can only do that if you know what's there. 

Martin: Absolutely, yeah and I mean *church bells ring* sorry that's just distracted me *laughs*. 

Adam: That's fine, distracted, distracted, slightly by the the ominous bells of the church in whose yard we are sitting in at the moment. So, you know, we're we're under a beech, you might hear the rain. We're cowering from sort of fairly light rain and in this churchyard and just listening to those those bells, anyway, they've they've gone, they've gone so. 

Martin: It's where Charles Darwin was baptised. 

Adam: In this church? Charles Darwin? Well, that, that raises a really interesting point, because also I know the local community were trying to protect an oak. And they called it the Charles Darwin Oak. You know, it's always good to have a name, isn't it? And they called it that because they think, well, you know, Charles Darwin could legitimately have played under this oak. It's old enough, and it's where he was baptised and everything. And it raises this issue, doesn't it, about people's connections to trees and local communities' connections to trees and it, I mean, I, from, as an outsider, it feels that that is becoming more a thing more a thing that people talk about, just regular people do feel it's important to have this connection. 

Martin: I I think it's it's it really is yeah. I think people are now realising much more how the trees and the ecosystems around them actually provide us with the atmosphere and the our ability to live on this planet. It really is such a fundamental part of being human and survival to look after these green spaces that it's it's, you know, people are, people do realise that I think people do recognise that. 

Adam: It it brings us on to the debate about the environment and protection. It was interesting, on the way here, I was reading an article by Jonathan Friedland, the great writer, who was talking about the ecological debate, saying they've said the the ecological sort of lobby group have the argument right, but they're using the wrong words and and he was saying that you know that that their argument isn't framed in the right way, but it feels like this is a super important moment, maybe a flex point, one doesn't want to overemphasise these things, sort of, but does feel that, I mean, right this week we are seeing heatwaves, I mean sort of properly dangerous heatwaves in southern Europe. Flooding, there was flooding on the motorway as I came here, so we have extremes of weather which feel very unusual for this sort of early summery type period. How worried are you about the environment and our ability to actually do something to protect it and our place in it? 

Martin: I am confident that we have the know-how and the ability as humans to change our ways to a more sustainable way of living in harmony. I think that is changing. I think the economics has got to be part of this debate and the conversation, I I read a fantastic book in 2008 by Eric Beinhocker, The Origin of Wealth. I don't know if you've heard of this and looking at the environment as complex adaptive systems, but he was also saying how the economy is a complex adaptive system and evolution of economy, evolution is a, you you can't predict a thing what's going to happen sometimes and 

Adam: No, I understand. And that's interesting to the, that the economy is itself an ecology and it adapts to the environment that it's facing. And I agree, I used to do a series for the BBC called Horizons when we travelled the world looking at technology. And I tend to the panicky, I have to say, and I thought this wouldn't be good for me when I'm looking at big challenges facing the world. And actually, I was really drawn to the fact that there are tech solutions to all sorts of issues, and it's often the money that's preventing, you go, 'we can fix it, it's just not commercially viable'. No one wants to pay to do this at the moment, but if oil prices went through the roof, suddenly this alternative would be commercially viable. So it was, we talk a lot about technology, sometimes it is the economics of it which are preventing us from doing things and the economics change, don't they? So that that might be. 

Martin: They do and it's something that is not predictable because there's so many moving components, there's so many interactions, there's so many feedback loops that, I mean, that's something that intrigues me about complex systems is that, the more complexity you have, the more feedback loops, the more agents that are interacting with each other in a system, the more resilient it is to change, but it can shift if if you if you get some events that are just too too much or you you degrade the amount of complexity then that system becomes less stable and that's the, that's the danger with, potentially what we're doing with trees and our environment, our, if you like a tree is an emergent property of the soil, it's it's an expression of of of what, of plant life and it's it started as algae coming out of warm freshwater, sea, freshwater in, 600 million years ago and and partnering with fungi to make, to have lichens. And then you get soil and then other things, other more complex plants evolve and then we've ended up with trees and they're like the, an emergent property of complex systems of the soil. 

Adam: So we're talking about people's interaction with the environment. I should explain some of the symphony of sound we're hearing. So we we had the church bells, we had the rain above us. And I think there is a charity Race for Life with, thousands of people have emerged, in in a bit of green land we were going to actually walk through. And I think there's a sort of charity run going on, which is why you might hear, some big blaring music in the background, which is not as quiet a spot as we thought we might have ended up with, but does show the amenity value of these open green spaces. It's just rather a lot of people have chosen to use it on, on this particular day. One of the other things I just want to talk to you about as well while we're talking about this debate, and I know you talk on on behalf of yourself, not the Trust, and you're taking a sabbatical so these are your views, but given the debate we're all having, it feels to me that we talk a lot about armageddon. And I know from talking to people, you know, my family, they they sort of just disengage with after a while it just becomes background noise. And I wonder if you have an idea or an insight into how to talk about these issues to explain that they are potentially the difference between humans surviving and not surviving and yet not just sound like, some crazy guy screaming into the wind and also to stop people going 'well, if that's the way it is then you know what am I gonna do I, I just better carry on because I can't do anything about it'. Is there a key that we're missing you feel, or an emphasis that we have wrong in engaging with this topic? 

Martin: I don't know if I would say I have an answer to whether it's wrong or not, or the way we engage with it, but I think for me the the key is connection to nature and encouraging people and you've got to start young, I think, getting children through forest school perhaps, getting them out outside and experiencing nature because that's where nature connection comes from. And you don't need a, you don't need an ancient tree to to give you a sense of awe. I mean you I I can and ppeople can find awe in a tiny flower, but it's just a case of looking and spending time plugging in if you like. 

Adam: You're right. I mean, I'm not sure I'd quite describe it as awe, but I often have in my car like a a little bit of a berry or an acorn and and you know, sometimes, it's going to sound weird now I'm describing it *laughs* but if I'm in a traffic jam or something and I look at those things and go actually, do you know what, if that was a piece of jewellery that was designed almost identical, we'd pay a lot of money for it and we'd go, 'isn't that beautiful?' And you'd hang it around your neck in a way that you probably wouldn't hang an acorn around your neck or most people wouldn't. And yet you look at it and you go, it's quite extraordinary when you take time to look at these things a leaf or something, and I don't want to sound, you know, too Mother Earthy about it and people to, turn people off about that. But taking the time just to look, sometimes, you go, the wonder is in the detail. It is there actually it's quite fun and it's free. 

Martin: Yeah and and I think when we when we go into a potentially, you know an undisturbed habitat like an ancient woodland where there is complexity and and you you immerse yourself in those areas, that's that's where you you you you can see, you can feel life. 

Adam: Let me take you back to your walk, because, from which I have dragged you. A hundred odd days planned on the road, carrying all your own stuff. That means you have to find a place to sleep. Wash every now and then. I mean you you smell beautiful so I'm I'm assuming you've found some magic trick or you are washing and carrying clothes. What, just what is the trick for doing that? Because sometimes I go away for the weekend and I feel I'm already carrying far too much. How are you doing a hundred odd day walk carrying everything. What's the trick, what's your sort of kit list? 

Martin: Yeah, I I did spend about two years actually building up different kits and trying different things to be as lightweight as possible. But that's in a way that, the whole having to find somewhere to camp, having to find water, these are basic simple things that take you away from all the other stuff that is going on you know, in my life sort of thing so I can actually immerse myself into the flow of of that journey. 

Adam: So, but just because you, look, you're wearing a lightweight top, it's it's raining. No coat at the moment, I mean, but sort of how much clothes are you taking? And you know, yeah, how many, how, how many shirts? How many socks? How many pairs of pants? I've never asked this of another man before *laughs* How many pairs of pants do you have?  

Martin: Right. Well, I can answer that *laughs* I have five pairs of pants, five pairs of socks, three pairs, three shirts, three T-shirts and just one top that I'm wearing now, a rainjacket and some waterproof trousers and some walking trousers and a pair of shorts. That is actually my clothing list. The the socks, the pants and the T-shirts are all merino wool essentially so they're very lightweight, they're very thin, very lightweight. Don't, merino wool or wool doesn't pick up smells and odours readily. The socks have got silver woven into them, so they're antifungal, antibacterial, and they're pretty amazing socks, actually. And they they dry as well. So the T-shirts are very thin merino wool T-shirts. I can wash them and they'll be dry in a few hours, especially with the hot weather that I was having in May and June. 

Adam: Not, not the rain, nothing's gonna dry in this rain, although this tree is providing some amazing cover for us. So look, you've come into Shrewsbury to to to meet me to have a look at this ancient tree, which I I might leave you to measure yourself given the the increasing amount of rain that is pouring down on us. And I stupidly did not bring a coat because I just thought it was such nice weather when I left. Anyway, what is, when I leave you, where are you off to? Where is the next sort of part of this walk taking you? 

Martin: Well, I am, will be taken back to my tent, which I've left at a campsite in, near Brecon and and then I am heading north to some yew trees and then to, up to Welshpool and Oswestry and then across into, towards in between Liverpool and Manchester and then north, Cumbria, Scotland. We'll see how, how, how far we get. 

Adam: I know you thought the first bit of the trip you've you've not been on pace to actually complete it, but you never know, it, you might pick up, it might might get easier going. 

Martin: I've actually slowed down and I thought I would speed up as I went along and as I got fitter and stronger I thought I would speed up but actually I've started to slow down and go at the pace, at a pace that my body wants to go at as well as the time and mental space that I wanted to to have from this trip. Yeah. 

Adam: That's the difference in us. You're you're going to go off and measure a tree, and I'm going to find a coffee *laughs* some, somewhere dry. Look, best of luck, an amazing journey. Thank you very much. Thank you. And if you've been inspired by Martin's journey and want to help protect veteran and ancient trees but don't want to take a marathon walk the length of the country, there is still something you can do from the comfort of your armchair. 

Adele: So, I'm Adele Benson, I'm a campaigner at the Woodland Trust. 

Adam: So what can people do to actually help? 

Adele: We're running currently the Living Legends campaign to secure better legal protection for our oldest and most special trees. Because ultimately we are seeing some of our oldest trees with, you know, immense ecological wildlife and historic value being felled, or the value of them is not being fully appreciated in law. We've got a petition with almost 50,000 signatures and and we're trying to ultimately get to 100,000. 

Adam: So if anyone is interested, they can search the Woodland Trust's Living Legends campaign on their computer and you can sign that online. Great, great stuff. I I think people might be surprised to learn that buildings often, or perhaps most of the time, get better legal protection than trees, even if the trees are older and actually more significant than the built structure next to it. 

Adele: Yeah. So in Hampstead Heath, there's a, it's approximately 300 year old beech tree. And and it was planted next to a fence that had just been erected so think back 300 years ago. Now this fence has a Grade II listing on it, but the beech tree doesn't have any legal protection at all. So when they were found that the roots of the beech tree and the trunk was sort of impacting quite heavily on the fence, they were very, they wanted to essentially cut down this tree and remove it. However, that's not now happened luckily, but it's essentially having that equivalent of protection that is so desperately needed because we're valuing this this built heritage but we're not valuing this natural heritage that we have such a wealth of in the UK. The Woodland Trust celebrated its 50th anniversary last year and in that time, it's been working considerably to protect some of our oldest and most special trees and woodland, and ultimately I think it's now a time for action. 

Adam: So let's just remind everyone that is the Living Legends campaign, which you can search for online if you want to sign that petition. And if you just want to find a woodland near you to walk in, just go to the Woodland Trust website, type in, find a wood that will come up with a whole range of places near you that you can visit. Until next time, happy wandering. 

Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you. 

Discover the fascinating ancient art of coppicing as we visit Priory Grove in Wales' Wye Valley, where the technique is still practised on a small scale to benefit both people and wildlife. We meet site manager Rob and contractor Joe to learn more about the coppicing carried out here, and how this interaction between people and nature has enabled the two to develop and evolve in tandem. Also in this episode, find out how an unfortunate end for ash trees resulted in a fantastic sea of wild garlic, the team's efforts to encourage dormice, bats, pine martens and other wildlife and which tree to identify by likening the trunk to elephants' feet! 

Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk

Transcript

You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people, for wildlife. 

Adam: Well, today I am off to Priory Grove, which is next door really to the River Wye near Monmouth in Wales to meet the site manager Rob there who's gonna give me a bit of a tour. It's predominantly made up of ancient woodland and provides a wide range of habitats for wildlife. Things like roe, fallow deer, they're known to forage throughout the area, and a wide variety of bird species, including the tawny owl, sparrowhawk, and the great spotted woodpecker, which can all be seen on the wing here. All very exciting and I've just got to find it and find Rob. 

Rob: Hello, I'm Rob Davies, site manager, South East Wales. 

Adam: So tell me a little bit about where we are and why this is significant. 

Rob: This is Priory Grove woodland. It's quite a large site on the outskirts of Monmouth, but nobody really knows what its history is. It's it's called Priory Grove, presumably because it was attached to one of the monastic estates round here. And that probably accounts for its survival as one of the one of the largest ancient woodlands next to Monmouth. And it did retain a lot of its coppice woodland, which is quite important for biodiversity. 

Adam: Right. And what we're, I mean, we're standing by some felled, are these oak? 

Rob: These are oak. Yes, oak, oak in length. 

Adam: So why why have these been felled? 

Rob: This is part of the coppice restoration programme, so coppicing on this site has been a management tool that's been used for hundreds if not thousands of years in this area and it's used to produce products like this, this oak that will go into timber framing and furniture and all those good things. And also, firewood is part of the underwood and the the the hazel and the the the understory coppice. So products for people and in the past it was used for all kinds of things before we had plastic. But it's still very useful, and so because it didn't cease until recently on this site, the animals and plants and the fauna that relies upon this method that have evolved with it essentially in the last 10,000 years or so since we've been managing woods in this way, still are present here on this site or in the local area. So if you continue the cycle you continue this interaction with the wildlife and you can help to reverse the biodiversity declines. So it's very holistic, really this management technique. But it does mean that to make space for the coppice regrowth, because trees don't grow under trees, you know it needs the light. The light needs to be there for the coppice to come up again. You have to take out some of these mature oaks that were planted 150, 200 years ago, with the intention of being used in the future. So we're planting things and we're carrying out the plans, we're bringing them to fruition, what people enacted a couple of hundred years ago. 

Adam: It it's interesting, isn't it, because it it it is an ancient woodland, but that doesn't mean it's an untouched woodland, because for hundreds of years it's it's been managed. Man has had a hand in this and not only that, commerce has had a hand in that, so often I think we think of these things as a dichotomy. You have ancient woodland, nice, pristine sort of nature, and then you have sort of horrible invasive commerce. Actually, I think what's interesting about this site is that there isn't that dichotomy. They both work in tandem, is that fair?  

Rob: That's right, it's a false dichotomy. So the reason these woods have survived is because they were used for people, and because of the way they're managed, coppicing and thinning is quite a sensitive technique, it allows space for nature to be present and to develop and evolve in tandem, so they're not mutually exclusive. 

Adam: Yes. So tell me about coppicing is an important part of this site, tell me a little bit about what you're doing at the moment with that. 

Rob: Yeah, so we've had a grant actually from the Wye Valley AONB from, supported by the Heritage Lottery Fund, to to do some coppicing work on stands that were coppiced about 20 years ago. So we're continuing that cycle. And we've been working with a company called Wye Coppice Community Interest Company, Wye Coppice CIC, and they're quite developed in, in the Wye Valley area. And we formed a good relationship with them and through them we've been able to do half a hectare of coppicing up on the other slope higher up in the site there. If you like we can go up and meet Joe? 

Adam: That would be wonderful. Yeah. You you lead on I will follow. Well, you can hear from this I'm a bit out of breath, we've claimed, OK, I'll be embarrassed to say it's a hill, a small incline, but we've come across this stand of of felled trees. So just tell me a bit about what's going on here. 

Rob: Exactly. So all these stumps you can see scattered throughout the stand. This is the coppice, so it's cut down to just above base ground level there now and it will just regrow. So it's kind of a natural defence strategy that we're just exploiting. So it's it's been used to, it's, you know, since it evolved things like hazel especially, it's used to being browsed off by animals, the animals move on and then the tree just comes back. So it's like a phoenix strategy it comes back, back up again. We're just exploiting that. So we'll cut the tree to base and then we'll protect the regrowth from the browsing animals and then the tree will come again. 

Adam: Right, and this is the work done by Joe? 

Rob: Yeah, this yeah so this is the work done by Joe Weaver. Joe's just down the end there actually if you want to come and meet him. 

Adam: OK, let's go have it let's go meet him. Ohh I've got stuck. OK, so Joe, this is all your handiwork. 

Joe: It is, yes. 

Adam: Tell me a bit about what what it is you do then. 

Joe: So I run Wye Coppice CIC, we're a coppice contracting company and working with Woodland Trust, Natural Resource Wales and Wildlife Trusts throughout the Wye Valley and we're embarking on a project to restore areas of the Wye Valley to restore, do a coppice restoration project for for various organisations throughout the Wye Valley. The what you see, what you see here is about 1 1/2 acres of cut down trees with 7 or 8 standards. 

Adam: What are standards? 

Joe: The standards are the trees that we've left behind, so, so they're the large, they're the larger trees. 

Adam: Oh, I see right. So you wouldn't be coppicing, these are very well established big trees, you don't coppice trees like that, you coppice quite small trees, don't you? 

Joe: Yes, so all the small diameter understory trees we've cut down to ground level and and they will, they will resprout and grow back again. We can then come back in 10 years and recut them and have a healthy supply of continue, a continual healthy supply of pole wood. 

Adam: And yeah, so what you're trying to get with coppicing is sort of quite it's quite small diameter wood, is that correct? 

Joe: Yes, generally speaking, so this is a restoration project you can see this first cut is fairly large diameter. And so most of this will go to make charcoal but generally speaking after 10, maybe 15 years of growth, we'll have poles about sort of thumb size and maybe up to about 50 pence diameter. 

Adam: Right. And that's ideal size, is it? 

Joe: And that's a really good size for products like bean poles, hedging stakes and binders that go on the top of naturally laid hedging and then various other pole wood applications. 

Adam: And and when you see a coppiced tree, evidence that it's been coppiced, there's, I'm trying to look over there, is is this where you see lots of different branches actually coming out from the stump in the ground? That's evidence that's been coppiced, cause it not just one thing grows, lots of them? 

Joe: That's right. So you can, if you have one birch tree standing up, for example, you can cut that down to the ground, and when you come back in a few months' time, you'll notice about 5 or 6 shoots coming from that one stump at the bottom of the ground. So if we can protect that from deer browsing and rabbit browsing, then those stems, those five or six shoots will grow up into individual stems that we can then use use in pole wood products. 

Adam: It's odd, isn't it that that happens, though, that you chop down one sort of main stem and you get four or five coming back, that's sort of an  odd natural thing to happen, isn't it? 

Joe: It is. I think it's the tree's response to the stress of being cut down. So it sort of puts out a lot of it puts a lot of energy into regrowing new growth to try to survive because essentially these broadleaf species, trees, they're they're forever growing, you can cut them down they'll regrow, cut them down again, they'll regrow again. So it's a constant cycle of of regrowth. 

Adam: Yeah it's it's like sort of, you know, thumbing their nose at you isn't it, going well, you cut me down well I'm gonna come back fivefold. You know, that's it's a sort of really funny response. 

Joe: Indeed. But we can reap the benefits of that. 

Adam: Yeah no, no, it's, I get, I get why that's good. And coppicing itself, that, and that's an ancient art, isn't it? 

Joe: It has, certainly here in the Wye Valley it was practised at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution to produce charcoal to power the Industrial Revolution until coal was iintroduced and so it happened for hundreds and hundreds of years here. 

Adam: Right. So you think, do you think I mean there's no need for you to be an historical expert on the history of coppicing, but do you think that's the first big sign of it happening, sort of Industrial Revolution time? 

Joe: Certainly around here it is yeah, and there's some of the coupes that we've cut, some of the coppice areas that we've cut here, we've found evidence of charcoal hearths. So you can see flat areas with bits of charcoal sort of sliding down the bank. 

Adam: So that would be ancient sites in here, well, ancient, I mean, a few 100 years old of them actually making charcoal in this woodland? 

Joe: Yes, in this woodland, throughout the Wye Valley all the way throughout the Wye Valley here, yes. 

Adam: Amazing. Now so your company, it's not just a traditional sort of private business, it is a a different sort of form. Just explain how that works. 

Joe: So we run a community interest company and that allows us to access grant funding if we need to. Essentially, we're run as a private business, but we are able to do community outreach work as well and that's part of what we do is to try to educate people about sustainable woodland management. 

Adam: And how did you get involved in all of this then? Did you grow up as a boy going I want to chop down trees to make fences. 

Joe: No, I didn't. I was walking in the Dolomites, I saw two stoats fighting and thought woodland life is for me *laughs*. 

Adam: Ok, well, fantastic, never heard that, so inspired by the the battle between two stoats and the and and the Dolomites. That's fantastic, but a hard life, I would have thought to run a business to, I mean it's physical work anyway, but that's my perception from the outside, is it hard work? 

Joe: It it can be very difficult, it does have its benefits. Obviously it keeps you fit and it gets you outside but yes, it is a hard life and and you know it's it's quite a technical job as well and the training is expensive so we're trying to introduce a training programme as well through through our through our business Wye Coppice to try to get young people interested in woodland management. 

Adam: And do you find that people sometimes don't understand or or perhaps disagree with the fact that commerce and nature can be actually mutually beneficial? Do you find that an issue at all? 

Joe: Yes I do. Yes, and we're we're we're always willing to stop and talk to dog walkers especially. Shortly after COP26, we had two dog walkers come past and shout at us for chopping the trees down, after sitting down with them and having a cup of tea, they bought a bag of charcoal off us. 

Adam: Right ok very good there we are. You're bringing them round one by one, one by one, those customers are coming over. Well brilliant and we've had not a bad day. I thought I might have to put my wet weather gear on, but it's been it's been OK. Anyway well, that's brilliant thank you very much. That's been really interesting. 

Joe: Thank you. 

Adam: So we've got this stand of trees we're looking at Rob. A couple couple of oak. Did you say that was a lime?  

Rob: That's a lime yeah.  

Adam: That's the lime, that that one with lots of ridges in it is that the lime? 

Rob: That's it, yeah. 

Adam: That's the lime. So why have you left these trees? Is there particular reasons you didn't take these ones out? 

Rob: Yeah. So these as you can see, these are all mature trees and so you don't take these decisions lightly. So when we coppice this sort of half a football field area here, there were thirteen of these big mature trees, trees you can barely get your hands around as they're so large, taken a couple of hundred years to grow, so you've got to be quite careful and quite selective, although you need the light. There's an old adage about oak trees, it goes something like this that to fell an oak tree you need three things. You need a good eye, a sharp axe and a cold heart because these trees, you know they've been grown and nurtured and developed, and they're impressive life forms. And so it's not something you do without considering it very carefully so so you can see a couple of trees in here which are a couple of oaks, good size, but they're full of ivy, very dense ivy and that's very good for wintering bats. For hibernation, or for potentially summer roosting. 

Adam: So the bats would live just amongst the Ivy, they'd sleep amongst the ivy? 

Rob: Yeah when it gets as dense as this, when it's really all knotted, entwined, there's lots of gaps behind it. You could stick your hand in and find little cavities and several species of bat, especially pipistrelle, they they will hibernate over winter in this kind of growth. So you really don't want to be disturbing this. 

Adam:  Right. And and what what's, is there something specific about lime that wildlife like is there any particular wildlife? 

Rob: Well, it's good for bees. It's good good good pollen. 

Adam: You get beehives in there? Oh I see, the pollen itself is good. 

Rob: They like the flowers. Yeah yeah it produces lots of the small leaved lime it produces lots of good flowers and and it will attract aphids which is actually a food source for for dormice in the summer. So they they feed on the feed on the lime sap, you know if you park your car under a lime tree, you'll get this very sticky kind of substance coming off it. 

Adam: Yes, yeah, yeah. Of course it does. Yes. Yeah, yeah. 

Rob: So that attracts aphids, attracts the dormice, it's good for insects who like nectar as well. So it's a it's a very valuable tree and and you know 

Adam: So interesting it's it's not valuable commercially, it's valuable for nature. 

Rob: Yeah, absolutely. And it's quite it's quite a special tree in the in the Wye Valley, it doesn't occur much outside this area naturally, and it's kind of an ancient woodland indicator in this part of the world, perhaps not officially, but it's a. 

Adam: OK. Any other trees we've got here? 

Rob: Yeah. The rest of the trees, then are beech. 

Adam: Right and you've kept those why? 

Rob: Yeah, because you can see if you look at this one here, it's got quite a few cavities in it at the base at the top, beech tends to do that. It tends to take, form little cavities, rot holes and ways in, and that's ways in for fungus and then they eat out and hollow the tree. So the potential for harbouring bats again is very high in these trees. Without sort of going into them, doing some invasive exploration, you can't tell, but it's it's very high potential for bats. So again, bats, all species of bats in this country are protected under law because they've had massive declines like a lot of woodland species. And so we'll do everything we can to retain that habitat. 

Adam: It's it's the Field of Dreams, philosophy. You you build it and they will come. 

Rob: Yeah, yeah. This as long as it stays there, it'll always be valuable as habitat and so at least then, there are future sort of veteran trees within this stand. 

Adam: It is interesting you you've already, I mean, we've only done a short part of this walk so far, but you talked about whoever was managing this woodland 100 years ago knew what they were talking about. And I think that's fascinating that we don't know who that person is or who who they, who those people were. And in 100 years time, people won't know who you were p.sumably, but the the evidence of your work will be here. They'll go yeah, that was a good bloke who did all this and left us with something. 

Rob: That's it, you you don't plant trees for yourself, you plant trees for the future generation so you know, I won't see the oaks I plant develop. I'll be dead long before they mature and it's the same for the person who did this. But you can see the ones we took out, the ones I took out and selected were tall and straight. And that means that the coppice is well managed, because there was enough light for the hazel in the understory to come up straight away. If you cut hazel to the ground and you protect it, in a couple of years, it'll be way above six, eight foot and it'll just continue to get higher and higher over the next few years. And what that does is it shades the stem of the oak and it prevents side branching. So you get this very tall initial first stem. And that's what you're looking for. And that's what these trees had. So this would have clearly been cared for and these trees have been selected, they were on a journey from the moment they were planted. 

Adam: OK. And just on my journey of education about trees, how do, what, they're beech, I wouldn't be able to spot that myself, what tells you they're beech? 

Rob: It's a smooth trunk. If you look at this one here now you can see I always think of them as sort of elephant legs. They're grey and they're tall and they're smooth and they quite often have sort of knobbly bits on the base like an elephant's foot. And if you go through a stand of pure beech, it looks like it looks like a stand of elephants' feet, really tall, grey stems and these big huge buttress roots. 

Adam: Fantastic. I am never going to forget that and I will always think of elephants when I look at a beech, a brilliant brilliant clue. Thank you. Right. So where we off to now? 

Rob: We'll walk around so you can see the top of the coupe and just see the extent of it and and then we'll walk back down perhaps and have a look at this oak.  

Adam: Brilliant. Well we've come to the, over the brow of the hill and along this path, there's a tiny little path for me to walk, and on either side there's a carpet of green. And I think I know what this carpet of green is. Rob, what is it tell me? 

Rob: This is wild garlic.  

Adam: Yeah. This is the time of year, is it? 

Rob: Yep, you can see the flower heads. Ramsons it's also called, it's just about coming into flower now. 

Adam: Sorry they're called what? 

Rob: Ramson. 

Adam: Ramson. Is that the flower itself is called ramson, or is that? 

Rob: Well, just the plant. 

Adam: We call it wild garlic but it's it's real name is ramson? 

Rob: Well some people call it ramson too. 

Adam: Right OK. And I never, I mean I have never picked and eaten anything from a forest because I am sure I will kill myself, but all of this, I mean, I've seen loads of people do that, pick wild garlic and it's, I mean there's there's acres of the stuff here. 

Rob: It can it can yeah any kind of wild plant comes with the caveats that you need to know what you're doing. 

Adam: Yes, which which I don't. 

Rob: Yeah, absolutely. It's funny yeah, this site is quite well known for its ramsons, for its wild garlic carpets. This this is in response to something here, quite a sad thing actually. We're right next, you can probably hear the road noise there, we're right next to the main road from Monmouth into the Forest of Dean, Staunton Road there, and unfortunately, a lot of the trees along the road edge were big, big, mature ash trees. And they all had dieback and they were all dropping limbs and about to crush a car. And so, you know, we take that very seriously in terms of health and safety so the trees just along the road edge, we left the ones in the wood, just the road edge trees we had to do something about them, so they've either been reduced or felled and what that's done in this woodland where in the last 60 years, you have had very little management, like most woods, post war, very little has happened. So it becomes very high, very closed canopy, very dense. And what's happened, because of the ash felling is, you've got this pocket of light here and the ramsons have immediately responded to that. So this wasn't here last year. This carpet like this. 

Adam: What so this is this is brand new? 

Rob: This is brand new. It was the odd plant coming up every year, patches of it. 

Adam: I'm shocked because this looks like something from the Wizard, if this was yellow, this would be we'd be in the middle of the Wizard of Oz set here, the yellow brick road. It just I mean it it's just a beautiful, winding, lush, dense path of wild garlic. It looks like it's been here forever. 

Rob: And in a sense it it was. It was just waiting for the opportunity, waiting for that temporary disturbance caused by the ash felling. And so like with the coppicing, that's what we're trying to recreate essentially, is these temporary pockets of disturbance where you you break up the canopy, you get this flush of greenery and then until the trees recover it and regrow again. So you don't want this homogeneous block of woodland really. You want, you want variation, because that's the key to success for, for wildlife and biodiversity, different niches, different ages. If you look closely, you can see it's not just the garlic either. You can see wood anemone, you can see greater wood vetch, you can see little violets. So, you know, quite quite a lot of species are now taking advantage of this temporary light that the ash felling's produced. 

Adam: It is a nice positive message, isn't it? Because ash dieback has been a real tragedy. But even in the midst of problems there are opportunities which nature comes back with, it's an optimistic sign. 

Rob: There is and so this as I say, you know these these trees would have coppiced without us because you know when animals browse them, they they they they come back after that so all we're doing is sort of recreating these natural processes through the management of the woodland. A once in a lifetime storm might have knocked these ash out or a hurricane, something like that, could have felled the whole area and then temporary open space, the plants capitalise and then the wood comes back again, so we're just just mimicking what nature does anyway. 

Adam: I'm going to take a photo of this, put it on my Twitter feed. It's fantastic. So we've just taken a little stop on this path of wild garlic. So over to the right is well, I thought it was a bird box, it's a large bird box. You tell me it's actually something very specific.  

Rob: Yeah, this is a pine marten nest box cause there was there has been a big release of pine marten. Pine martens are native to this country. It's kind of like a large weasel that lives in the trees. That's a really bad way of describing it, but it's a it's a mustelid. It's a large, impressive, intelligent animal and they were sort of pressed to persecute, to extinction, with persecution in the past. But they're very important in these woods for regulating, you know, the biodiversity, they, they prey on the grey squirrel especially, and they'll regulate bird numbers like any predator does. So it's it's great to see them coming back and it's a success story actually, because a couple of years ago now there was a release programme where captive animals were put into the Forest of Dean which is just over that direction. And so we put up some boxes and monitored them and pine martens are moving back into this area now. Whether they're using the boxes or not, we're not entirely sure, but they are moving in, so it's a, it's a really good story. So we'll do whatever we can to sort of encourage them because we've we've lost a lot of this old growth woodland that we're trying to protect and so they haven't got the nest cavities, so temporarily we'll provide this habitat. 

Adam: And over the other side of the little dip, there's another pathway and it looks like the bank has been cut away and it's very black so that it doesn't look quite natural. What's going on there? 

Rob: Well the the track that's been put in there is exposed, an earlier industry, so that's that's a charcoal platform. See what is it about five, five metres in diameter. Sort of sort of circular and very, very thick layer of charcoal. A huge fire has been there, but that's that's lots and lots of fires, one on top of the other. 

Adam: So this is this is not current, this is probably a couple of hundred years old? 

Rob: I think the last burn in this woodland would have been before the Second World War. 

Adam: Oh right, so not that old. 

Rob: Well, I mean, if they were still burning, they would have had the odd one, but this probably dates to sort of the the height of the the periods of the the late 19th century. So this here, it's been buried and forgotten about. But it shows you as Joe was saying earlier, at one point this was a managed wood and quite a few woods in Wales if you look on the maps you'll see things like coed poeth, which probably roughly translates as sort of hot wood or or burning woods, very roughly, probably, which gives you, may may give you an indication that these woods were worked and if you came here, you would have probably seen people living in the woods with the charcoal, tinner and charcoal workers, especially in the the 19th century, would have moved in in the summer to do the charcoal production with their families. 

Adam: Just living in a tent or something? 

Rob: Living in on site yeah, because then you know you don't want to move products, move things twice. You know, it's it's an economic, so you bring your family in, you produce your product, and then you come out with it at the end of the season so it's very peaceful here today. You can hear the birds. It's great for wildlife, but it would have been a managed landscape and we're trying to introduce a little bit of that. Obviously not people living in the woodlands anymore, but there's space for both here within this woodland, a bit a bit of coppicing a bit of management and reserve areas. 

Adam: And I mean, I I hadn't quite noticed it while we were walking, but now we're we're standing here on this green carpet, there is an overpowering smell of garlic, it's quite extraordinary. It's very fresh, you know, sometimes when you're in the kitchen and the garlic it's it's, it's not fresh, it's pungent, but this is, you know, it's mixed with the sort of cool air, it's a really lovely smell. 

Rob: It's making me hungry, actually. 

Adam: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. Well I was thinking whether I should pick some for dinner. 

Rob: Chop some up. Pasta sauce. It's lovely with that. 

Adam: Yeah, yeah, yeah, lovely. And and there's another one amongst this wild garlic, it's clock, what was it? 

Rob: Yeah, this one here, it's the town hall clock or moschatel as it's known. 

Adam: Town hall clock that's it. So just, what's the what's its proper name? 

Rob: Moschatel. Well, that, that's it's another acronym, ah pseudonym really it's moschatel. 

Adam: Moschatel. 

Rob: Or town hall clock. I forget the Latin actually, to my shame. 

Adam: Is moschatel the Welsh word for it, or it's not 

Rob: No, it's not. It's a general general word, just a colloquial local term. 

Adam: And why is it called the town hall clock? 

Rob: Look you can see these four, the flowers have four sides to them, like an old town hall clock would. 

Adam: Right, lovely. It's really quite, quite a rich path we're wandering down. 

Rob: You see the the bluebells are out look just now, if you look up into the wood there you can see them. In Welsh they're called clychau'r gog, which is the cuckoo bell. 

Adam: Wow. Cuckoo bell. 

Rob: Because it comes out when the cuckoo comes. Apparently, the grant paid for like a fence, contractors to fence off that, this boundary here, stop the deer coming in from the Dean. To stop the wild pigs actually, pigs are a 

Adam: You get wild pigs here? 

Rob: They're a nuisance round here, yeah. 

Adam: Wild pigs? 

Rob: They call them, they're not really boar, because a boar will produce like, I don't know, maybe a litter of six, and these pigs will do 22.  

Adam: Right. Blimey. And how big are they? 

Rob: They look like boar. 

Adam: So and boar can be quite violent, can't they, quite aggressive. 

Rob: Yeah, they're sort of half breed, half pig, half boar. They're big animals, got a cute little stripey piglets, just like a boar does. But they, you know, they're exponential in their reproduction, so they're 

Adam: And and they're around this wood? 

Rob: They're here. 

Adam: So do they cause a problem with eating or do they nibble on the new trees and stuff? 

Rob: Yeah, yeah, well, they sort of rootle, I mean you want boar, because they were here originally. You want boar, like the deer, you want them in sustainable numbers, they're all sleeping now. 

Adam: Do they come out at night? 

Rob: They only come out at night yeah. 

Adam: I'll have to return. 

Rob: Yeah. I mean you'd see them if you went up to the top path up there. 

Adam: We haven't done a night podcast. I think we should do some bats and. 

Rob: You can do bats, if you wait, while you're waiting for the badgers to come out, you can do the bats. There's a few sites around here where you can watch them. 

Adam: OK, well maybe 

Rob: I'm sure there's other Trust sites where people know. 

Adam: Maybe I'll come back. 

Rob: One summer when I was doing my bachelor's degree, I was working in Llanelli in like a, just a café just to get some money. I was working with the local girls there, I'd been out surfing in Llangennith on the Gower the day before and I was like just telling her how the seals came in because they chased the mackerel in just beyond the surf line and I was sitting there and the water just boiled with the stench of of fish and mackerel and I looked around and two seals popped up and they were driving the mackerel into the back of the waves to hunt them. I was telling her this and she was like, what, you're telling me there's seals in the water here, in Llanelli, where? I said just in the Gower. Seals? Like seals seals, like live in water? I said there's seals there, yeah, they've always been there, we just don't value what's around us. 

Adam: We don't notice it. 

Rob: We don't notice because you can't see it, you don't see it, yeah. 

Adam: It's interesting, isn't it, Attenborough has done a series recently on the UK and you go, you don't have to go to Africa or Latin America to see these things. 

Rob: There you go. I was in West Wales last week in Aberaeron, and you can see bottlenose dolphins. Increasingly under threat there's that number of point but yeah, but they're there. You can see the seals, you can see them all around us, yeah. This is doing well. 

Adam: Well, I'm going to have to leave our little trip down the Wye Valley with some rather unexpected chat about seals and bottlenose dolphins and a promise to return one dark night to meet some bats. Until next time, happy wandering. 

Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you. 

Join us as presenter, author and farmer Kate Humble guides us through magical ancient woodland near her remote Wales home in the Wye Valley. With infectious enthusiasm and occasional impressions, she tells us about the plants and animals along our route as well as the story of her accidental career, becoming host of nation's favourite Springwatch having never wanted to be a TV presenter! Kate also talks worldwide travels, access to nature and planting trees with the Woodland Trust on her smallholding.

Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk

Transcript

You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people, for wildlife. 

Adam: Well, in early spring I went on a woodland walk in Wales with presenter, author and farmer Kate Humble, who was taking me around what promised to be some amazing woodland with her dogs. But as is increasingly common in these podcasts we of course had to begin with me getting absolutely and entirely lost.  

This is an absolute disaster. Although I am bad at directions, this is not my fault *laughs* So Kate sent me a pin, she said look this is going to be hard to find my place, she sent me a map pin. I followed the map pin. Look I'm here I don't know if you can hear this you probably can't hear this. This is the gate that's locked, which is across some woodland path. So I can't get there. And of course there is no phone signal, so I'm going to have to drive all the way back to some town to find a phone signal. And I'm already late.  

OK. I have managed to find a village where there is a phone signal. I've managed to call Kate and Kate *laughs* Kate has clearly got the measure of me and told me to give up and she is now going to get in her car and find me in this village and I will follow her back. In the meantime, we have passed Google map pins back and forwards, which apparently tell her that I'm sitting outside her house. But I really am nowhere near her house, so I seem to have broken Google which well, that's a first. Anyway I've got a banana here, so if she's a long time, I have dinner and I'll just wait. This will never happen. This will actually never happen.  

Well we've found Kate. We've found a whirly country drive lane. Feels a bit like rally driving. It's like, I mean, I don't understand why my map wouldn't find it, but this is certainly a bit of rally driving we're doing here getting to her house. My goodness. We found her house.  

OK. Well, we're here. Which I never thought I I really thought it was really lovely. The idea was nice, and next time I'm in Wales, I'll give you a call so really, it's it's better than I thought better than I thought. Anyway, so you're leading me off with your two dogs. 

Kate: I am. I am. I'm leading you off into one of the most beautiful I think I mean, obviously I'm a little bit biased but it is one of the most important areas of ancient woodland in Britain. This is the Wye Valley. We're the lower Wye valley, so we are the the the the bit really where the River Wye is in its sort of last bit of its journey. It's risen in mid Wales, about 136 miles from here. I know that cause I've walked the whole route. 

Adam: Really, we're not doing that today, are we? 

Kate: No we're not no I promise. I promise Adam. So yes and we are basically about 5 or 6 miles from where it flows into the River Severn and then out into the Bristol Channel and the woods around here are a lovely mix of broadleaf, so we're walking through broadleaf woodland now and this is literally this is what I walk out of my front door. Aren't I lucky? 

Adam: You are lucky. 

Kate: I'm so lucky. So we've got a lovely mix of broadleaf woodland now and we're just coming into that time of year. Which is the time of year that makes everybody's spirits lift, because we are coming into spring, and if we actually just stop just for a second. You can hear that's a blue tit calling *imitates sound* and I mean, this isn't the perfect day for birdsong, but the birdsong was really picking up. And that's the lovely thing about living alongside woodland. So even in the winter, even when you don't think there are any birds at all, what you hear in these words is *imitates sound* that's a very, very bad impression of a great spotted woodpecker. 

Adam: OK, I'm glad you. I I was guessing it might be a woodpecker, but I didn't want to. 

Kate: So they start to drum around about sort of late January, they'll be drumming. And and then as the and we also have tawny owls, lots of tawny owls in these woods. We've got an owl box and we used to have an owl that we called Percy who we have no idea whether it was a boy or girl. 

Adam: I was gonna say it was, a reason it was called Percy? 

Kate: Don't know, just it just it looked like a Percy. 

Adam: Just fancied the name. Fair enough. Yeah. Yeah. 

Kate: But we have lovely tawny owls here. So, you know, at dusk and and when when I take the dogs out sort of last thing at night round about 10 o'clock 11:00 o'clock at night we walk down this track and and you stand here and you hear this wonderful and everyone thinks you know, tawny owls go toowit toowoo. They're the classic toowit toowoo owls, but actually you've got 2 owls calling, so you've got the male going *imitates noise* and then you have the females going *imitates noise*. And they're calling each other, establishing territories or going ooh I like the sound of you, there's a bit of flirting going on. So these are, as I say really it's it's just the biggest treat to live with this on my doorstep. 

Adam: Right, so fantastic. You you clearly I mean, you've launched into a sort of fantastic description and detailed knowledge, but you are not a country girl by birth are you? 

Kate: No, I am a country girl by birth.  

Adam: Oh you are? I though you were born in London? 

Kate: I am. No. Well, I was you're right, I was I was 

Adam: Sorry, do I know where you were born and you don't. 

Kate: Well, being born and where you were brought up is different.  

Adam: Yeah, OK. OK, fair enough. 

Kate: So I was, you're absolutely right, I was born in London. I was born in well, I was born in Wimbledon in fact. This is my neighbour by the way. 

Adam: Right. Right. Wow. I didn't, we're in the middle of nowhere I didn't know there'd be a neighbour. 

Kate: I know, but I know. But there are other people mad enough to live in these woods, and he's particularly mad. 

Adam: OK. Does he mind you saying that?  

Kate: Not at all. Not at all. No. He's absolutely used to it. Hello. Come and say hello to the Woodland Trust podcast.  

Adam: No. OK, I'm just checking. OK. Hi, I'm Adam. Hi. Nice to see you. Yeah, I hear you're her neighbour. 

Kate: This is this is this is writer Mark Mccrum and his dog Jabba. Yes. So I'm just dragging Adam down to take a look at the ponds and talking about the ponds down there. 

Mark: Oh lovely. Which ponds? 

Kate: The ponds down there. 

Mark: Oh those ones? Yeah, very good. I might see you on the reverse cause I'm gonna go all the way round. 

Kate: Oh you're gonna go round. OK, fine. Lovely. 

Mark: These are lovely woods cause you never see anybody here. *all laugh* 

Adam: I'm sorry. 

Kate: Apart from you  

Adam: I was gonna say, and me, I've ruined it. 

Kate: Yeah we're the only people who see each other aren't we. 

Adam: So you were telling me you are you are born in Wimbledon, but you you grew up in the country then?  

Kate: Yeah. So I was I was born in Wimbledon and yes. So after about, I think I was about six months old, my mother always says that she realised that London was clearly not the place for me and  

Adam: From six months? Outward bound baby were you? 

Kate: Yes! She said she said there basically wasn't enough space in London for me. So so yes, so I was brought up in Berkshire, right? And I was brought up next to a farm. So I was always a sort of vicariously farming kid. Even though my parents weren't farmers and and spent my childhood looking after various animals of various descriptions, and I think the wonderful thing about being the age I am, so everyone bemoans being old, but I think I just I I am so thankful that I was born in the sixties. 

Adam: Why? 

Kate: Because no one had invented health and safety, climbing trees, no one had climbing frames, you climbed trees. And I think the trees enjoyed it, and so did you. And if you hadn't fallen out of quite a lot of trees by the time you were 10 and had various, you know, scars or broken bits as proof of a proper childhood, it wasn't a proper childhood.  

Adam: Right. OK.  

Kate: So I had a lovely proper childhood of, you know, not being plonked in front of a screen of some description or another. We're going to cut off piste a little bit and head down here. 

Adam: OK, I'm is this a precursor warning that I'm about to get bumps and scrapes and? 

Kate: This is a precursor warning that you might yes, you might. It's quite a steep descent. 

Adam: OK just as long as my, my face is my fortune though, as long as that's safeguarded throughout this, that'll be fine. OK. Well, that's good. Yeah. Lots of leaves around. Yeah. 

Kate: Of course it will be a soft landing whatever you say. Lots of leaves. One of the nice things again about broadleaf woodland. And as you can see, I'm sure your leaf identification is brilliant, but we've got a lovely mix of oak here and beech, as well as the evergreen so the hollies and lovely, lovely mosses. But yes, what you're walking on is is a sort of glorious mulchy carpet, but we have a profusion of bluebells. 

Adam: Already they've come up? 

Kate: Well the bluebells, the the plants themselves have come up so the leaves are up and there are one or two I'm going to show you, is it, will it be your first bluebell of the year? 

Adam: It, almost, almost we we can pretend it is for dramatic purposes. Let's let's go along. 

Kate: OK, OK. They are, they're just, they're just starting to come here now and and you get that lovely moment. It'll be about probably about three weeks or a month's time, slightly depending on on what the weather does, where you get the, the unfurling of the beech trees. So that glorious kind of neon green which when the light goes through you get that sort of wonderful, almost disco light effect show. 

Adam: And aren't they in Welsh, aren't they called cuckoos? The Welsh translation for bluebells is cuckoo clock. I think it's because it's like it's a harbinger of spring along with the cuckoo. 

Kate: Oh, I didn't know that. 

Adam: Oh my God, I found something you didn't know. 

Kate: You know, you know, you'll know lots, I don't know, but 

Adam: No, no, let's hope that's true that's that's I'll have to go check that. Do check that before you tell anybody.  

Kate: Well, I'll just blame you. 

Adam: But no, I do think in Welsh the translation for Bluebell is is cuckoo clock or something like that because it is this harbinger of spring and I think that's it's a really nice I I won't even try the Welsh but in Welsh it sounds very so I mean, I thought we were going to chat about your conversion to nature and everything, but actually that's a lot of nonsense. This is this has been a constant in your life?  

Kate: Well, it's been, I mean, coming to Wales, so I did live in London, you know, after I left home. 

Adam: Except, I mean, you didn't choose a a nature career, did you? I mean, you you're involved now we can talk about that. But first, what was your first career? 

Kate: Well, I mean. Career always seems such a grand word and that you've planned it. 

Adam: Yeah. OK, so your accidental career. 

Kate: So my accidental career, well, I had this idea that that I that I wanted to work in television, although again I don't really know where that came from. We're going just down here. Part of me also wanted to be a a safari guide. 

Adam: Good. I can see the appeal of that. 

Kate: I went to I when I was 19 having never really been abroad at all, because again, our generation didn't really go abroad as a matter of course. So I went to Africa when I was 19 and. 

Adam: Sorry we're not talking on a holiday? 

Kate: No it was a well it was a it was probably a rebellion.  

Adam: Right. You went as far away as your your parents as you could. I'm not going out for the evening I'm popping off to Africa? 

Kate: Yes, yes. I'm popping off to Africa and I don't know when I'll be back. One of those. 

Adam: Right. Yeah, good. Good exit line. So where, where, where in Africa were you and what were you doing there? 

Kate: So I I started in South Africa. I ended up in Egypt. 

Adam: Right, just bumming around doing sort of bar work or doing something more serious? 

Kate: I did I did I was a waitress for a little bit, but I was very, very bad and was sacked. I I was a model for a little bit, also very bad, very bad at that too.  

Adam: Why were you so bad at that?  

Kate: Because because I really don't like having my photograph taken and I really like food. 

Adam: Yes, OK well I would I would have guessed I could have advised you that wasn't the career for you. 

Kate: So so the two things, yeah, didn't really weren't terribly compatible to that. But I then got a job as a cook and a driver on a safari, and I drove a truck aged 19, having never really been out of Berkshire, from Cape Town, through Botswana and into Zimbabwe. And and then I hitched back to Cape Town. So I had a a real adventure. But what I what it really did for me was, having had this very sort of unconsciously wild childhood, I don't mean you know lots of parties and taking drugs I mean, a natural wild childhood, I then went to a place where the natural world was was so extraordinary and so mindblowing, and on a scale, you know, everything was was was like technicolour. You know, the birds were amazing. The the you know the the the size of the animals, the proliferation of the wildlife, the size of the landscapes, the emptiness and I think it was that journey that turned my mind to really re-look and re-examine the natural world and think it's, you know, it's extraordinary, it's it's mind blowing in every way and so even though I then came back and thought I want to have this sort of career in telly what I really wanted to do in my career in telly was work for the natural history unit. 

Adam: Right. And is that what you did? 

Kate: No. Not initially anyway. 

Adam: OK, but you have done, I mean you've done nature programmes, lots of nature programmes. What did you first start doing? 

Kate: We're going down here. I have. So I first started sweeping streets in the East End. 

Adam: In EastEnders? 

Kate: No, in the East End, no. I was a runner so I basically got jobs wherever I could get jobs and I got a job on a commercial that happened to be shooting in the East End and they needed the streets swept and so that was one of my jobs. But had no plans to be on the telly that that really did happen by mistake. 

Adam: I think you know my first job in telly. I don't know if you remember That's Life with Esther Rantzen. Do you remember they she always had rude, funny vegetables?  

Kate: I do, yes 

Adam: That was my job to find them, yeah so only only marginally above the street sweeping.  

Kate: Oh my goodness! 

Adam: So you got how did you get picked there? I mean, we gotta get back to the natural world. But you've had such such a fantastic life. So I mean, I think people will be fascinated to know you have not much of even a vague plan about what you're doing. You're fumbling about a bit. 

Kate: None, yeah. Living in a squat. Eating crisps. 

Adam: So yeah, right. So not many models will be will be living like that and eating crisps, I get that You're sweeping streets as your way into telly, all of a sudden you're on telly. How did that happen, was that more of a plan or did someone just turn around and go, hey, you, street sweeper, you'll do? 

Kate: No, it wasn't. So I had I had graduated from street sweeper, so it took about probably four four or five years I have become by now a sort of senior researcher. And I got a job at the BBC. My first job at the BBC on a programme called Animal Hospital. 

Adam: Right. Yes. And you were still a researcher there or presenter? 

Kate: Yeah, as a researcher. And and I think the reason that I got the job was actually my childhood. Because I think it was the first series, in fact, I think the only series that they did of Animal Hospital in a rural practice. So we went to a practice that didn't just do small animals, pets type animals, but also bigger animals like farm animals and horses and I think the only reason I got the job was that I was the only person they interviewed who knew what to do with something bigger than a hamster.  

Adam: Right ok great. 

Kate: And I had my own wellies. 

Adam: Oh good. Always important for a career in telly, your own wellies, see these are the secrets people wanna know. Good. So you've got your wellies?  

Kate: Always really, really important. They are. So I got that job I got that researcher job. And at the end of it, the BBC do this appraisal thing. And they said we thought you were alright, you did OK, will you come back and do the next series and I said I'd absolutely love to. I'd really loved it, absolutely loved it. Can we just pause here a minute because this, 

Adam: A sea of wild garlic? 

Kate: No, these are bluebells. 

Adam: These are bluebells? Oh, sorry. Look at the ignorance here. 

Kate: These are bluebells. Well, those white flowers let me show you these because they're beautiful. 

Adam: I thought like I I think that's what I thought was wild garlic shows you *unintelligible* OK, we've got a proper safari expert. 

Kate: No. So look, look, look, look, look, look, look, look, look, first bluebell starting to unfurl except my dog's just walked all over it. Come on you're not supposed to walk on there. 

Adam: So this is, all of this is bluebells? 

Kate: So all of this will be bluebells and in about 3 weeks time you get this absolutely, it's so blue it's like the colour actually detaches itself from the flowers and floats above it in this sort of glorious mist, it's beautiful. But this these flowers here I love. And these are these are one of the flowers along with celandines which are the kind of waxy yellow flowers that people will see in woodlands and even in their gardens at this time of year, these are wood anemones. And they are lovely, very delicate white flowers with these slightly sort of hand-like leaves and the lovely thing about these, they're not looking at their best at the moment because it's been quite a wet day. But when the sun's out, they open to the sun like these brilliant white stars. And sometimes there are areas around here where you'll see carpets of wood anemones and they're one of the first I've seen these as early as January, although not this year because we had lots of frosts. 

Adam: It's funny you, you, you, you use the word magical I'm just looking at this tree with covered in moss and everything, there is something magical about these sorts of places, a sort of sense of, sense of, a Tolkien type moment isnt there?. 

Kate: Absolutely. Absolutely. I've I I don't think it is a coincidence that lots of fairytales are set in woodlands because there is something otherworldly about them. We're going to head keep heading down just so that you have a really good climb on the way up. 

Adam: Yeah, I was gonna say I'm fine going down, I'm assuming you're sending a car to pick me up? It's well a little, a little Uber will just I'm sure,  

Kate: Nice try, Adam! Lots of Ubers around here. Look, look, look.  

Adam: Oh look now that is OK that's a proper bluebell. 

Kate: That is a, a, a bluebell that's a proper bluebell. 

Adam: Yeah, that is my first proper bluebell of the year. 

Kate: And you can see all the others are just starting to come. 

Adam: And that's and it is lovely because clearly so few people come here that's the problem often with bluebells is when people trample all over them. And we've got just one clean path down here and it's completely undisturbed for as far as the eye can see. So yes, we OK, we we did a little pit stop for bluebells. We're back on and the what was the programme, animal? 

Kate: Animal Animal Hospital. 

Adam: Animal Hospital. So they wanted you back as a researcher. I'm interested in the jump from behind the screen to on screen. 

Kate: So so they basically said lovely we'll see you in four months and I said oh well, I've got a landlord and rent to pay, I can't not work for four months. I'm going to have to get another job and it may mean that I'm not available. And they said ohh well, maybe we can find you something else within the BBC as a stopgap. And I had also at that point, so this is the mid 90s now, started writing. I was writing travel. And I'd spent at the the a end of a a, the second Africa trip that I did between 94 and 95, I'd spent the last two months of that in Madagascar. 

Adam: Right. 

Kate: Madagascar was a place that I was obsessed with because of its wildlife because it has unique flora and fauna. I came back and got an article commissioned to write about it, and it was the first, 

Adam: Your first commission? 

Kate: Yes, my first commission and my first article, and it was in a broad a broadsheet newspaper, and I was very excited and very proud about that. And so when I was asked by the series producer of the BBC Holiday programme, whether I would consider coming to work for them because I was a travel writer, 

Adam: Right OK, yeah, you're now a travel writer because of your one article. 

Kate: I am I am now a I am now a travel writer on the strength of one of one article. 

Adam: Whoa oh Kate, I'm so glad you were the first person to sort of go over *Kate laughs* That was before me I just want that on record.  

Kate: Yeah.  

Adam: OK so I haven't gone over yet.  

Kate: You haven't got over yet.  

Adam: OK. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. 

Kate: Yes. So I got a job on the BBC Holiday programme. Anyway the next day I got called into the big boss's office. And I assumed that my short lived career at the BBC Holiday programme was about to be ended because I wasn't quite sure why, but perhaps because I hadn't been taking the producers guidelines as seriously as I might and that also I had smoked on a fire escape, which probably wasn't a good idea. And instead I was asked to do a screen test and I assumed that this was the sort of common test that the Holiday programme did and I tried to say I really don't want to be a presenter thank you, I love doing, I love making the programmes, I love the research, I love talking to people, I love putting things together. I'm quite, I like logistics. I'm quite, you know, I like all that stuff I don't want to be a presenter. And they went well do a do a screen test. So at this point I just thought I've just got to get out of this office because I feel very embarrassed by the whole situation. So I will just nod smile say yes, do it, it'll be a disaster, and then everything can go back to normal. So that's what I did. Three weeks later, the boss came into the office, 

Adam: Sorry, we have to stop. This is a story that's gonna last all day, cause I keep stopping because your dog is posing or it was posing beautifully by this river. 

Kate: Well, so this river is an important, one of the sort of parallel streams that run into the River Wye for this is the Angidy, we are in the Angidy Valley, surrounded by amazing woodland on both sides, it's a very steep sided valley. This river is particularly good for dippers, which are those lovely chocolate brown and white birds, they look like little waiters. 

Adam: Right *laughs* 

Kate: And they and they, they're called dippers because that's exactly what they do. So we'll keep an eye out because we might see some, but they'll sit on a stone like that exposed stone within the waterfall there and they will jump into the water and literally completely submerge. They'll disappear completely and they're looking for things like caddisfly larva, which is what they feed on, and then they'll bob up and come back up and they're they're just these wonderful, perky, very smart little birds. 

Adam: Brilliant, OK. 

Kate: They're the only British songbird that is also a water bird. 

Adam: Wow, OK, good. All right.  

Kate: There you are, little bit of, little bit of, 

Adam: No, I like these these these sorts of diversions we take, it's it's almost like doing a stand up routine, so we're gonna go gonna go back to the story now. So you thought everybody in the world gets a screen test. So I'm just doing this and then they'll leave me alone. 

Kate: Yes, yes. And and then the boss came into the office about 3 weeks later. And she said, can you go to France tomorrow? And I said yes, of course, assuming that they needed somebody to carry the heavy stuff. Bhcause carrying heavy stuff is the other thing that I am good at. I can whistle very loudly and I can carry very heavy things and those are really the only two things that I can offer the world. 

Adam: OK, I I you, you have set yourself up for a big whistle at the end, so we'll we'll wait for that then let's hold out. 

Kate: It it will blow your ears well, that's all I'm saying. So she said, we want you to present a film on a barge in Normandy, could you please do something about my hair, she said. My own hair. 

Adam: I see she didn't ask you to be a hairdresser? Also could you cut my hair? 

Kate: Yes could you cut my hair *laughs*. No, could you do something about your hair, she said. I thought she's been talking to my mum, who constantly despairs of my lack of my lack of grooming. 

Adam: Right, also right at this point of hair hair disasters, we have to pause because we've come across as you may hear an extraordinary small waterfall, it's a weir, really, isn't it?  

Kate: It is really. 

Adam: I'm gonna take another photo of this before we get back to the life and misadventures of Kate Humble. So I'm just gonna take a photo. You'll find that, no doubt on one of our Twitter feeds. Oh, I know beautiful, oh no the dogs disappeared, the dog doesn't like posing for me. But all right, so now, you're off to France. You need a haircut and, 

Kate: So I'm off to France. I need I need I need to basically smarten myself up. Off I went to France and presented my first film. 

Adam: Right. And that was, I mean, we could talk about this forever, but that was the beginning of that was the beginning of this, the story. OK, well, amazing. 

Kate: Yes. My first job for the natural history unit came in 2000. And I was asked to do a programme, which was a sort of, was made in response to Blue Planet. So the very first series of the Blue Planet, which I think everybody watched with their mouths open because we had never seen the oceans in that way before, particularly the deep ocean. And there was a phrase used which I have used many, many times since, which was that more people have been to the moon than there have been to the deep ocean. And people were fascinated by these, they were they were creatures that looked like they might have been designed for Star Wars. They were so extraordinary. 

Adam: These sort of angler fish which have which have this light don't they. 

Kate: That sort of thing, and these these, you know, these astonishing, you know, plankton with flashing lights, there were Dumbo octopus with, you know, little octopus with these sort of literally did look like Dumbo the elephant, you know, deep water sharks that people had never seen before that were really slow moving and and, you know astonishingly well-adapted to live at depths and in in at water pressure that no one thought anything could exist in and come on dogs we're gonna keep, do you wanna have a, 

Adam: And so yours was a response, in what way?  

Kate: So we did a live, 

Adam: The dogs keep looking at me like they want me to throw something for them is that what's going on? 

Kate: They do, and I'm going to just try and find a, here let's try let's try this, here we are. 

Adam: Look, they're very, oh you've thrown it into the river?  

Kate: Go on, in you go. 

Adam: Oh, look at that go! 

Kate: Come on Teg, do you wanna go in as well? Here you are. This one's going to sink, go on. Ready? Go. Good girl. Where's it gone? Teggy, it's just there. That's it. Well done, well done, dogs. 

Adam: Oh they like that. 

Kate: Well, I can't go and get it, you have to bring it here, that's the deal with sticks *laughs* So we did a live programme from a boat in Monterey Bay. I made some films to play into that live show. So I went to the Cayman Islands, which is a rotten thing to ask anybody to do, can you imagine? 

Adam: Terrible, terrible. You wanted to be back in the East End really. 

Kate: I did really, sweeping streets and instead there I was, doing films about coral reefs and this is the one of, this is the wonderful thing about the natural history unit or just about making films with animals is the lengths that you have to go to to be able to capture the natural world in all its wonder. And so I was asked to go and film a shark called a six gill shark that lives very deep and only about 10 people in the world had ever seen. And I was sent to go and find this creature. You know, I can't I can't even now I can't really believe that I was asked to do that.  

Adam: And did you find it? 

Kate: Eventually. We had to do two, we did one trip we failed to find it,  

Adam: How how long was that? 

Kate: So that was, we did 6 dives. It was an amazing trip. We didn't get the shark on the first trip. We went back for another trip. We didn't get it. We didn't get it. We finally got it and it was incredible. Incredible moment. And that was the first job that I did for the natural history unit and there was then somebody who came up with the idea of doing British wildlife life live at kind of springtime, like kind of now.  

Adam: And this was Springwatch was it? 

Kate: This was the precursor to Springwatch.  

Adam: Oh I didn't know there was one. 

Kate: There were two! 

Adam: What were they called? 

Kate: So the first one was called Wild In Your Garden. So I'm just going to put the dogs on a lead here. Hold on, poppet. Just hold on my poppet. That's it. We've got to take Adam up the hill now. So yes, so the first one was called Wild In Your Garden and it was Bill Oddie and Simon King and me. And we did two shows a night, from gardens in Bristol, and it sort of worked as an idea. 

Adam: Right. OK. 

Kate: It worked well enough or it wasn't so much of a disaster that there wasn't a thought of let's try it slightly differently, maybe on a farm instead of in the garden, and we went to this wonderful organic farm in Devon and basically made camp for three weeks. And made a series called Britain Goes Wild. And Britain went a tiny bit wild. And so the following year we thought, well, we'll do it again, but maybe we'll just call it something different. 

Adam: Right. 

Kate: And someone came up with the idea of calling it spring watch and everyone said, and it always went out at the same time as it does now, sort of end of May and people go, it's not really spring though is it? And we're like, well spring enough, still spring things happening and Springwatch seemed to capture everybody's imaginations and and I presented that for 10 years. 

Adam: And you presented that for how many, how many years? 

Kate: Ten. 

Adam: Blimey! That's a long, 

Kate: Yeah, I know. I've just grown old on telly and then Autumnwatch came into being and then Winterwatch and I did Seawatch. So I did a series about British Britain's seas and and marine life. Yeah. So I did eventually get my wish of working for the natural history unit. 

Adam: Oh, that's very good. The fairy godmother in the form of the BBC descended and granted your wish. And now from all of those adventures abroad and on TV and everything you then said, I'm gonna move to this really quite, there's another car coming, quite quite remote parts of Wales. Why that? 

Kate: We're going to head up here. Hold on, dogs. There we are. 

Adam: Oh there's some steps. Hallelujah. 

Kate: OK, only for this little bit. 

Adam: Look, stop stop taking away the hope. 

Kate: *laughs* So so I we moved, 

Adam: Yes so you you picked up sticks and then moved to Wales. Perhaps it's not such a big move because the natural world has seemed to be always the centre of things for you. So but why Wales in particular? 

Kate: Well, that is a curious question. I had no connection with Wales as far as I was aware. I honestly honestly can't tell you why I felt this extraordinary pull to live here. But it really was it was like a magnetic pull. There is actually a a Welsh word and I'm not sure I'm really allowed to use it in my context, but I can't think of a better word to use for the feeling that I had. And it's hiraeth and is a word that it's sort of more than home sickness. It's like a deep longing for the place that you belong. A yearning, a pit of the stomach emptiness for your home. 

Adam: You felt this was a spiritual home, did you?  

Kate: I don't know I really don't know, Adam. I, as I say I just had this extraordinary pull to live here. And yeah, I would look at the, there are these old fashioned things called maps, and I would look at the A to Z of Great Britain. And you know, there I was in the South East and if you look at a thing called a map, 

Adam: Yes, sorry is this a point about me getting lost on the way to you.  

Kate: No no not even remotely. No, it's the fact that no one uses them anymore, and yet, they're the greatest treasures we have. So if you look at a map, the South East of England is just this chaos of colour and roads and towns and names. And it's just, you know, there's not a square millimetre that hasn't got a name in it or something in. The further west you go, the browner the map becomes, and when you go over the border into Wales, it's mainly brown and green and it's got beautiful lyrical names like Abergavenny and and it's got mountains and mountains, when you've been brought up in Berkshire mountains are the height of exoticism. To live in a in a country that had mountains all of its own just struck me as being remarkable. I still, 15 years on, find it remarkable that I can I can get up at breakfast, not go terribly far, and climb a bona fide mountain. I love that. And that's what I love about Wales. 

Adam: And and you've done more than, I mean, people might feel that and move to a beautiful part of the country and live there and more or less carry on with their ordinary life. But you've not done that. I mean, you're not just you don't just go for walks, the natural world is something you've created a a new career out of as well. Is that fair? 

Kate: I wouldn't call it a career. 

Adam: OK but you're very much well, but you make money from it and it fills your days.  

Kate: Well, no, no, I don't think I don't know I don't I don't think that's I don't think that's true at all. I think you know I my working life is peculiar. I've I still am involved making television programmes, some of which involve the natural world. I still write, some of that's about the natural world, but not all of it. The natural world for me is nothing to do with making a living. Making a living. But it is about living. And it was one of the things that I was acutely aware of when I lived in London was I felt cut off from the seasons. This year you know, I know I can tell you that I didn't hear a skylark until the middle of March last year it was Valentine's Day. I can tell you that because that's what I'm experiencing. And I love feeling that instead of the natural world being something I watch on the television or I read about in a book that I am able to be part of it. And that's one of the big problems I think that we face now with trying to engage people with the importance of things like biodiversity, species loss, habitat loss. None of those things sound very sexy, and none of those things appear to matter to us because we as a species so weirdly and inexplicably view ourselves as a species separate from the natural world and the natural world has become something that we just watch for our entertainment. But we are just another mammal in this amazingly complex, beautiful, brilliant web that is the biodiversity web, where everything fits in and everything works together, and one thing feeds another thing and you know, until we feel properly part of that, immersed in it and and wrapped up in it, why are we ever going to worry about the fact that it is now a biodiversity net that's full of holes, and those holes mean that the net becomes less and less effective and the less effective that net becomes, the more it affects us, but we see ourselves as somehow immune from that process and we're not. And what I love about living here, what I love about walking in this area every day, twice a day, is the fact that I feel that I can, I'm I'm more in tune with our natural world and that is sadly, it shouldn't feel a it shouldn't be a privilege, but it is. 

Adam: And do you feel, I mean, you're you feel passionate about it. Do you feel evangelical about it? 

Kate: Yes.  

Adam: So what do you, do you have a prescription to help to bring others on side? 

Kate: I wish it didn't, I wish you didn't have to ask me that question. I wish it didn't have to be an on side. 

Adam: Do you do you feel that's an unfair question? Or do you think there's? 

Kate: No, I don't. I think it's a very fair question because lots of people don't feel or don't perhaps don't experience it experience the advantages of the natural world, or they haven't been they haven't been given the opportunities to properly understand the impact that it can have on us and all those impacts are positive. I mean, there's loads of science. And you know, it was talked about endlessly during the pandemic about how green spaces are good for our mental health, blue spaces are good for our mental health, being outdoors, being in nature, listening to birdsong, sing plants grow, all those things are good for us. But we've got to a place where we've been so divorced from it, where we look for our pleasures in shopping malls and online and and we forget that actually all we need is right here. And, you know, it's a hard sell for some to to somebody who's never experienced this, who hasn't had the privileges I've undoubtedly had, you know who have not grown up in the countryside, who find it fearful or boring or inexplicable, don't understand where they fit in. 

Adam: And I think one of the perhaps growing debates, I think or interesting ones anyway for me is is the balance between trying to either scare people or make them aware of the environmental challenges and potential for disaster. And then so to sort of go engage with the subject it's really it's really newsworthy, it's it's it's imperative people do things and actually turning people off going well we're we're all going to literally burn, enjoy the party whilst it lasts. So what what do you feel about that? 

Kate: Yeah, yeah. I mean, all all, all you have to do, all you have to do is watch Don't Look Up. Have you seen that film?  

Adam: Yes. 

Kate: And and and that, you know, absolutely embodies what you have just said. 

Adam: So what do you think about that? Because I think there's a balance between going, offering hope, the power or audacity of hope is a phrase one hears as opposed to the sort of potential to frighten people into action. Actually the opposite, don't frighten them into action. Offer them hope of change. And I wonder where you feel that, if we've got that balance right, or whether, 

Kate: No, we haven't got it right and I, but I don't know what the balance is because I think there's a real, I think that a lot of programmes that are made about natural history now have become so glossy and so beautiful and and so almost otherworldly that they don't actually reflect the reality of the natural world. And a lot of them again show the natural world without the context of people. And of course, that's sort of how we want to see it, we don't want people muddying those pictures. We don't want, as you say, the kind of the awful stories of the litter and the, you know, the the, the, the negative impact that human have humans have had on the natural environment. So we kind of don't want to see it, but equally if we don't see it, we don't engage with it and we kind of can watch one of those documentaries and even if David Attenborough is telling you that, you know, this is a habitat that's in peril or this is the last animal of its type that you will ever see, you don't really take that in because you're looking at these really stunning pictures and you think it's kind of OK. But I don't know what the answer is because I also know that as you say, if all you peddle is hopelessness and helplessness, no one's going to engage, they're going to stick their heads in the sand and just hope that it all goes away and pass it on to the next generation. So somehow we as communicators need to find a way that really does cut through. That really does make people feel, genuinely feel part of the natural world, that it isn't just another thing. I had the great joy of interviewing Tim Peake not that long ago, and I was interviewing him for a book that I'm writing about the concept of home. And I thought he would have, of anybody, a really unique idea of home having not just left home but left the planet. And he told me that he did a spacewalk, he was out in space for over four hours, and he said the blackness is like a blackness you cannot imagine. But he said, you know, you see Mars and Jupiter and Venus and you see Earth. And he said, when you're there, amongst the planets in that way you see that Earth is, as far as anyone's experience, and any telescope has been able to tell us, unique. You look at it and he said there it is, this colour, this blue and green planet, whereas everything else is, you know silver and and ghostly, ours is a living planet and he said he had this, he had this sort of feeling when he was there looking at Earth and imagining somebody, some other being coming up and tapping him on the shoulder and saying hey, hi,  who are you? I'm Tim. And he'd say oh hello so where are you from then? And Tim said I felt this enormous swell of pride to be able to point to our planet and say I'm from that planet there. I'm from Earth. I'm an earthling and I thought if all of us had that experience, could understand what it was like, how special our planet is in a universe that is infinite as far as we know and that we have, we have no idea what's out there, but what we do know at the moment is that our planet is unique and I think we would treasure it that much more and have moments like this of just standing amongst the trees and midges coming out, the drizzle, the mud and go, this is our home, this is where we live. It's really special. Aren't we lucky? 

Adam: You're taking me uphill again aren't you. 

Kate: I am taking uphill, but you've done the worst bit and you and and actually you marched. I was impressed! 

Adam: Oh OK good. You know I'll fall apart after, I'm just doing it so I don't embarrass myself too badly. 

Kate: *laughs* I'm afraid it is going to get very, very muddy, so you're going to have wet socks, mud up to your knees, you know, that's why I spend six months of the year in wellies. 

Adam: Right OK. But you know, that is the privilege of being an earthling, isn't it?  

Kate: It is it is. 

Adam: So you've been you've got involved with the Woodland Trust. 

Kate: I've been involved with the Woodland Trust for quite a long time, but it really started when we took on a farm near here. 

Adam: What's this an arable farm? 

Kate: No, it was a small council farm. It belonged to the council and people are not really aware that there are such a thing.  

Adam: I've never heard this one. 

Kate: No, but there used to be about 16,000 council farms throughout Britain and they were set up as part of the 1906 Smallholdings and Allotments Act and they were there, low rent, small areas, usually 30, 40 acres that sort of size and they would be available to rent for farmers who for whatever reason, didn't have a farm of their own. And over the years, as farming practices have changed as economic models have driven farmers to need to to produce things on a bigger scale, small farms have been basically relegated to either hobby farms or they've been broken up and sold to land that's been added to bigger farms. So we've lost an enormous number of these small farms and with them an enormous opportunity for people with farming skills to stay on the land and produce as food. And that's what was going to happen to this farm. And for whatever reason, I just felt this was not the thing to do and to cut a very, very, very long story short, we ended up taking over the farm and setting up a rural skills centre o prove that a small farm, ours is just over 100 acres, could still be viable. It supports itself and that's really important. But one of the things that we wanted to do, we were really interested to do when we took it over was to add more trees. It's it's got some wonderful ancient trees. There's an oak tree on the farm that we call Old Man Oak, as did the tenants before us. They introduced us to him and we think he's about 600 years old. And but we wanted to plant more trees. But we had this conundrum of how do we increase the tree cover on the farm without taking away the pasture because obviously we needed the pasture for the livestock and it was the Woodland Trust that helped us with that conundrum. So they looked, together we walked round the farm and we identified either areas where there were small copses or where there was a bit of a hedge. So what we did with the Woodland Trust's advice and input was to put in trees as shelter breaks, so not actually impinging on the pasture, just or very much, but adding a kind of a thicker bit of hedge if you like, or making a copse a little bit bigger and in that way we've planted over 1,000 trees on the farm in the last decade that we've had it. And then at home we have a four acre small holding and and so at the beginning of last year I started thinking maybe it's an age thing, you start thinking about legacy and when you when you take over a piece of land, what you start to understand actually very quickly is that you will never own it, that you are simply the caretaker of it for the time that you are around. And I think we've got cleverer now. Our knowledge has become greater. We understand that just planting trees isn't the answer. We need to think about we need to think of landscape as a mosaic and so what we wanted to do was to create a little mosaic. Plant trees, create water or make a space for water, make sure that there was going to be areas that had glade that was good for insects, that was good for wild flowers. And so I talked to the Woodland Trust and said, are you going to be into this idea, because it's not just planting trees and they went, that's exactly what we're into. That's exactly what we want to do. We want to create habitat. It's not about blanketing a landscape with trees. It's about planting the right trees in the right places at the right density to create something that you know, in a generation's time will have real lasting value, and that's what's been so wonderful about working with, you know, an organisation like that that sees big picture, sees longevity as as an advantage rather than as a disadvantage. And and that's what's been so lovely is that, you know, I can go to them and say so I've got this plan. I mean, I'm not even going to be alive to see it kind of come to fruition but do you care? And they went, we don't care, do you care? No. Let's do it. And that's wonderful. 

Adam: Wonderful. OK sorry, this is a bit, this is the bit where I'm going ohh well, I'm swimming effectively swimming now. 

Kate: Sorry. This is a very wet bit. 

Adam: Hold on a second. OK. Right. That's a very Norman Wisdom walk I seem to have. OK. Yeah. OK, so ohh sorry, hold on. 

Kate: It gets, that's the that's the wettest bit now, now we're now we're more or less home and dry. 

Adam: Oh well you know what we we might be home, but we are not dry. That would be inaccurate at this point. So well, that's a neat story to bring us back to home with isn't it. So you know things are looking good. It's all hopeful. A a long journey and a long one ahead, you know, not just for you, but for that natural world you're creating. 

Kate: Well, I hope that you know the the I I think going back to to what you said about how we can, we can help us all feel that we are actually, you know part and parcel of the natural world rather than observers of it or visitors of it and things like planting trees or being aware of the seasonal joys of the bluebells coming through, or, you know the leaf fall in the autumn and the colour, all those things if if i you know if we can build that awareness that brings with it huge joy and reward, then maybe we'll start to cut through again and people will start to feel more like the natural world is their world and not just another part of the planet that they live on. 

Adam: Well having arrived back at Kate's home, let me just say there are lots more woodland walk podcasts for you to enjoy wherever you get your podcasts from. And indeed, if you want to find an actual wood near you well, you can go to the Woodland Trust website www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. Until next time, happy wandering. 

Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you.