On this week's episode, we have music manager Dave Rose (Lit, Marcy Playground, Stryper and many many more) and we discuss his journey starting out as a bassist and what it’s like managing today vs. the pre-digital age. Tune in for so much more.

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Dave Rose:

I'm so amazed that people pay me to do this. I was doing it long before I knew you could make money at it. And so the pinnacle for me is really that this continued joy of the business of music

Michael Jamin:

You are listening to. What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase And to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. And today I got a special guest for you. Musicians out there. You don't deserve any of this. This is a wonderful treat for all of you. Don't say I never gave you anything. I'm here with Dave Rose from Deep South Entertainment and he is a career music manager. But Dave, first of all, welcome. I got a billion questions for you, but did you start off, are you a musician as well?

Dave Rose:

Thank you. Good to be here, Michael. Man, mutual admiration all the way around. This is exciting to be here. But yes, I started out as a musician. I was a, yes, I started out as a musician. I mean, yes and no, there's a story, but I became a musician out of necessity.

Michael Jamin:

How does that work? No one becomes, that's like the last thing you become out of necessity.

Dave Rose:

I know. Isn't that funny? So I was managing, and I very much put that in air quotes. Say I was a freshman in college and I had a local band decide they wanted me to be their manager. I was showing up at all their gigs and selling merchandise and unloading the van and doing all the things that I thought I could do to help. I just loved being around music. One day they said to me, would you be our manager? And I didn't know what the hell a manager was. I still don't. But they said, well, you could start by getting us some gigs. And that's not what a manager does, by the way. But that's when you're in college, that's what you do.

Michael Jamin:

That's not what a manager does then. Okay, you have to elaborate on that when we

Dave Rose:

Can get into that for sure. So I got 'em 20 gigs and we had it all booked up and we're all ready to go. And we were two weeks out from the very first gig, big string of shows, playing skate ranches and pool parties and all the places that you play when you're just starting out anywhere and everywhere that'll give you room. And they came me and they said, our bass player quit and he's moving, so we need to cancel these gigs and we can no longer, we will audition new bass players later. I said, like, hell, you are, I've been watching this. It doesn't look like it's that hard to play bass, so here's what we're going to do. I'm going to cram myself in the basement with you, Mr. Guitar player, and you're going to teach me all the parts to these songs.

We're going to go play these 20 shows with me as the bass player, and when we come back, you can audition bass players. That's how. And they were like, yeah, that's not how that works. I said, well, that's the way this is going to go. And so they did. I crammed myself in the basement and learned to play bass in two weeks, and it was rock and roll. It was three chord rock and roll. Wasn't real hard, but apparently I picked it up pretty easily and I played bass in a band for the next 10 years, but that should have been my first indication that I was not a musician. I learned how to play just to keep a band.

Michael Jamin:

But you must, if you played for 10 years, you're good enough.

Dave Rose:

Yeah, I mean I figured it out along the way.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. But then at some point you went to full-time management.

Dave Rose:

Yeah. Yeah. I ultimately segued into full-time management, and that was, I started this company putting out compilation CDs. That was a big thing. I started in 1995 and in the mid nineties, these sort of mix tape CDs were a big thing. And I would find local and regional bands from around the area and put 'em on this compilation CD and put it out and see what happens. But from the very first CD we put out, we had one of the biggest hits of the nineties, a song called Sex and Candy by Marcy Playground. And my intention was I would stick my band right in the middle of all these big regional bands or bands that I thought was going to be big and maybe my band would get some attention too. And I think nine bands on that first compilation got record deals accept my band. So that was kind of my moment of realizing, yeah, I'm definitely not, I'm way better on the business side of things.

Michael Jamin:

So then tell me then what a manager music manager does exactly if they don't get you work.

Dave Rose:

Sure. It's very different, I would guess, than in the film and TV business. And I would love to learn this from you, but I'm guessing in the film and TV business, the person that gets you work is the agent. Is that

Michael Jamin:

Yes, the agent and not the manager and I have Right,

Dave Rose:

And that's what it is here. So a manager in music, I'm put it in the simplest terms, but it's like if the entire career is a wheel, the manager and the artist are in the center of that wheel. And all these spokes are things like booking agents and publicists and record labels and publishing companies and people that do film and TV music and all the accountants, the crew, all the thing, the attorneys that make the machine, the wheel turn. The manager is making sure all of those things are working. So it's sort of like being, I compare it to this, it's being the CEO of a band, but if you're,

Michael Jamin:

I'm sorry, go on.

Dave Rose:

That's all right. The band is owned by the band or the artist is owned by the, they own their company, but they retain an artist manager commission, an artist manager to manage their career.

Michael Jamin:

But if that band is going on tour, are you expected to go with them?

Dave Rose:

Only if you're in country music.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. Why is that?

Dave Rose:

It is different. Country music is one of the few genres that still very much lives and dies by the radio, and so the relationships with local radio is very important. So a manager should be there to kind of nurture those radio relationships from town to town to town. Now, if you're in rock and roll or hip hop or almost any other genre, Americana folk bluegrass, most managers do not travel with the band,

Michael Jamin:

But a touring manager would No,

Dave Rose:

A tour manager. Exactly. A tour manager does. And the tour manager is exactly, it sounds, it's the manager of the tour. So it deals with getting the bus from point A to point B and where do we park and what do I mean? It's way more than that, but it's the finance of the tour and they report to the artist manager.

Michael Jamin:

Now over the years, I've heard you mention this, you have a very, very big it's successful TikTok page, which is how I found you. You've managed a bunch of really big acts, right?

Dave Rose:

I've had some, yes. I've had a lot of, and I still do have a lot of big acts. It's been just amazing. I keep waiting for somebody to knock on my door and go, okay, gigs up. Time to get a real job.

Michael Jamin:

Can you share some of 'em with us?

Dave Rose:

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So I got my start with Marcy Playground, and I'm still with them 26, 7 years later. But one of my first big clients was the piano player, Bruce Hornsby, who was in the Grateful Dead, and he had a bunch of hits in the eighties and nineties, but he's had a very, very unique career. He is done albums with Ricky Scaggs and Jazz Records, but Little Feat, the classic rock band of, they're just so iconic. The band Lit who had one of the biggest rock hits of the nineties, that song, my Own Worst Enemy, some of the country acts that I've worked with, Laney Wilson, who just won a Grammy, and yeah, I worked with the band six Pence, none The Richer who had the mega hit Kiss Me. And so yeah, it's been not to just, one of the bands I've been with the longest 23 years is an eighties rock band from LA called Striper. They kind of came up in the ranks with Moley Crewe and Bon Jovi and that kind world of big hair and Sunset Strip and all the things of Hollywood, but they're a Christian man. They sing about Jesus. So they're very, very different than that.

Michael Jamin:

At this point. Are new bands finding you or are you reaching out to them? How does that work?

Dave Rose:

Yeah, they usually find me at this point, I don't develop a lot of new acts anymore, mostly because I've just been doing it a long time and developing a new act from garage to Grammy is not only risky, but it's a long runway. And when you've been sort of doing it for as long as I have, and I don't mean any disrespect to anything on this, but you don't need to take that risk anymore.

Michael Jamin:

But it seems like on TikTok, it seems like you're talking to those people.

Dave Rose:

I am taking my audience on TikTok is very much the audience that is sort of just trying to figure out the next steps of a very complicated career path.

Michael Jamin:

But then why are you talking to them now if that's not, I assume it's because that's what you're looking for, but No,

Dave Rose:

Yeah, no, that's a great question. The reason I'm doing it is very pure, because it is hard to do this, and there's a lot of bad advice flying around out there. And to some extent, I wanted to get on there and level the playing field and just let people know the reality of how the business works. No, I'm not at all seeking to manage sort of startup band. I do some coaching that I'm more than willing to help them in. I'll do these 30 minute sessions where I can really, really fast track things for them, help them avoid years and years of mistakes in a very quick conversation. It's a lot like the stuff that you do in the sense that I'll meet an artist from Topeka, Kansas or wherever and how they're learning stuff that they would not learn anywhere else, only because nobody's ever told 'em.

See Michael, something I think we ought to talk about at some point in here is part of why it's difficult to get a manager in the music business is because of how a manager gets paid. Okay, how did they get paid? I think that's an interesting dynamic that a lot of just, certainly a lot of people, but even a lot of artists don't know how that works. So how does that work then? Yeah, so a manager is paid by commission, so it's strictly a commission base. So if you are an artist and you go out and you play a show or you sell a T-shirt or make some sort of income, a percentage of that income is paid to your manager, includes the record deal, includes everything. It typically includes, and sort of depending on where you are in that artist's career, it includes most every aspect of their entertainment career, including what about royalties?

It does include royalties, particularly if those royalties were ones that you helped them earn. If you get them a record deal and they continue to earn royalties either through radio play or whatever, you would earn a commission on that. So you're earning commissions on these revenue streams, and that's typically about 15%. So if you think about managing, like we talked about the wheel, all those different spokes in the wheel, maybe for each act that I manage, that's probably 150 decisions a day that we're making on behalf of that artist. So you can't manage a lot of acts as an individual. You can have a company like we do that manages, has managers that manage acts, but generally speaking, you can't manage a lot of acts. There's a lot that goes into a typical day of that. So the commission, if you just break it down to making a living, an artist has to be making significant money for it to be worth that manager's time to spend the bulk of their day managing their career.

So when you've got an artist that's just starting out, and I want to get to why it's hard to get advice when you've got an artist that's just starting out and they're making no money and are making very little money, I don't know, 20, 30, 40, $50,000 a year, you think about that 15% of that is $5,000 a year maybe for the manager. So it's really not enough to say, I'm going to dedicate my life to you, which is really what it takes. So as a result, it's almost impossible for an artist to meet a manager. It's really hard to meet a manager. Our time is paid by commission. So that's why I get on TikTok and talk about the things I talk about because I was that bass player in a band not knowing what the hell I was doing, making every mistake under the sun. And I'm very, I don't know, very genuinely just trying to help people not make those mistakes.

Michael Jamin:

Now, you said something a while ago on one of your tiktoks, and I was surprised you don't come down. I thought everyone was supposed to hate Spotify and streaming because of the way, in my opinion, in my point of view, artists are being raped. I mean, that's how I see it. But you don't feel that way?

Dave Rose:

I don't. I mean, do I think it's a fair payment system? No, I think there's a lot of improvement that needs to happen. Part of what I think is the imbalance is the payments between an artist, a songwriter, and the record label. You see, when a song is on Spotify, those are the three main parties that sort of have to get paid a record label, an artist and a songwriter. And the songwriters are the ones that are really struggling in this time.

Michael Jamin:

From what I pay on what people pay on Spotify, I gladly pay double for what? I mean, I get every album I want to listen to at any time through the month, almost anything. And if I pay double, I still feel like the artists wouldn't be making not even close to what they used to make.

Dave Rose:

Well, yes. Again, we got to remember, there's three buckets. We're dealing with the artist, the record label, and the songwriter. And in some cases, that's the same person in all three of those buckets. If you go out and self-release a record, and you've written that record and you performed on that record, and you do millions and millions of streams on that record, you're making very respectable.

Michael Jamin:

I thought, again, I come at this completely ignorant. I know so little about it, but I think I saw a video by Snoop Dogg saying his album was streamed a billion times and he made 10 Sense or something.

Dave Rose:

That's a famous video. That video circulated a lot. And what is missed most often in that conversation is the difference in those three buckets. My gut tells me, and I don't know Snoop Dogg's complete history, but he probably does not own that recording. So a big chunk of that money that's being earned probably went to his record label, and I don't know, maybe he wrote the song, maybe he didn't, if he didn't write the song, he's missing that bucket of income, or maybe he did write this. So my gut tells me there's more to that story. So

Michael Jamin:

Misunderstand this, which is fine.

Dave Rose:

I dunno, the full snoop do the inner workings of his business, but my gut tells me there's more to that story because I know no shortage of independent artists making a great, great living, really. But the thing that's different, and the thing that we got to think about that's different from say 2005, say 20 years ago, the biggest difference is the revenue streams now are very multiple. I mean, I met a band the other day that's doing insane six figures just on YouTube.

Michael Jamin:

On YouTube ad. So they put their music and they make ads on YouTube. Exactly, because they're not selling

Dave Rose:

It. That's right. The ad revenue is making four members a living, a very good living.

Michael Jamin:

See, it was my impression that, okay, so 20 years ago, a band would go on tour and after the show, they'd sell okay, merch, but they'd also sell the cd. If you want to listen to music, they sell. But now no one's going to buy that cd.

Dave Rose:

They do. They very much buy, well, more so they buy vinyl. The vinyl buy vinyl. And what's crazy, I was just on the phone with a head of a record label and he was talking about the rapid increase in the number of cassettes they're selling, which is crazy. It's just such a, I tell people this all the time, but you can't autograph a stream, so you're going to always need to have something that people can take home. I mean, I read the other day of all the vinyls sold only like 37% get listened to, but vinyl cells are through the roof, really. They buy the product, they get it autographed, they keep it as a collector's item, and then they stream it on Spotify.

Michael Jamin:

But why do you feel vinyl as opposed to a cd, which is just vinyl, but smaller and better quality? Why is that?

Dave Rose:

Yeah, I think CDs, I mean, also depending on the genre, certain genres are very cd, like country. People still buy CDs. If you go into a Walmart and rural America, you're going to see a lot of country in there. But yeah, I think vinyl partially because it's just big and cool to hold, and

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, you right, because not a lot of people have record. A lot of people don't even how to use a record like we do, but

Dave Rose:

Yeah. Well, I mean you'd really be surprised, Michael. The vinyl industry is insanely huge.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting.

Dave Rose:

And really among kids, I mean, the kids are buying vinyl. If you go into an Urban Outfitters, which is obviously geared toward 20 somethings, they have a whole record section in there, whole vinyl section in their stores, and they sell record players at Urban Outfitters.

Michael Jamin:

Right, right. I always thought that was ironic. I didn't realize that they're making money that way. I know. I thought they were museum pieces.

Dave Rose:

Well, probably to some they are. Wow. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Now, do you specialize in any kind of genre of music or does that matter to

Dave Rose:

You? I'm a rock and roll guy at heart, but I've done a lot of work in sort of songwriter rock. I've certainly had my share of country acts, although it's not my preferred genre, I've not done a lot in bluegrass, and I've not done a lot in hip hop, which is strange because if this is a visual thing, I'm staring at a Tupac Black behind me. So I say I don't really work in hip hop, but then I got to Tupac Black up here.

Michael Jamin:

I have a question for you. I don't think you're going to be able to answer this one. I don't know if there's an answer. Probably

Dave Rose:

Not.

Michael Jamin:

So Daryl Hall has a show that I happen to catch sometimes. I think he shoots in his basement or something. You must've seen it, where he brings in friends, like eighties stars or whatever, Darryl's

Dave Rose:

House,

Michael Jamin:

Darryl's house, and he looks cool. He's got a blazer on, he's got dark glasses, and I'm like, okay, he looks cool. But then sometimes he brings in other men his age, which is whatever, 70, whatever it is, I don't know. And they're dressed and they're stars from the eighties, and they're dressed like they used to dress in the eighties. I wonder, how are aging rockstar supposed to dress? Do you have to answer this to your clients? You

Dave Rose:

Talk about this. Oh, yeah. We talk about, I mean, I tell artists this all the time, including my big artists. The biggest mistake you can make with a tire fashion, whatever you want to call it, is to not talk about it. You have to talk about it. A matter of fact, I recommend a band sometimes, particularly new bands, take a night and don't bring your instrument, get in a room together and talk about what you want This look to look like. It is so incredibly important and,

Michael Jamin:

But do you have an opinion on what it should be then? Should it stay what it was, or should it evolve?

Dave Rose:

I think it's interesting, like this eighties band striper that I talked about that I manage from the eighties, that it's the same guys 40 years later. Back in the day, there was a lot of hair and makeup and spandex pants and all the things that, and so no, they don't wear that anymore, and they don't wear the makeup and the teased hair, but they do an age appropriate version of that rock and roll gear and rock. It

Michael Jamin:

Seems weird because the fans are coming to see their band. The fans don't want the band to age, but unfortunately the band aged.

Dave Rose:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

How do you give them what they want? It seems like, it seems like a really hard thing to struggle with.

Dave Rose:

It is. It's a tough thing. And the good ones, the ones that are really good at this, are good at sort of making fun of the, well, sort of making the audience one with them and sort of we're all aging together and this is welcome to us 40 years later. What I think we don't want is our aging rock stars to show up in sweatpants and a hoodie. We want 'em to show up at least caring and some resemblance of days gone by without being a carbon copy of that, because you shouldn't try to be,

Michael Jamin:

For the most part though, I imagine they're playing whatever their greatest hits, the songs that made them big, and the people, the fans, that's what they want to hear. And I imagine if I were a musician who's played the same song 30,000 times, I might get tired of this.

Dave Rose:

You would think, and here's what happens to a lot of them. Some do, yeah. They usually don't get tired of it. They get tired of being known only for that. There are some artists that have two or three mega hits so big you can't even compare. And as a result, there's no way for their catalog of deep catalog of hundreds of songs to sort of surface. It's why the band little feat that I worked with, they never really had a radio hit, and they always talked about the best thing that ever happened to us was never having a radio hit because we never had this super high. Instead, our fans consume our entire catalog. It's a little bit like the Grateful Dead in that sense. Grateful Dead never had this mega hit. They just had a lifestyle.

Michael Jamin:

Do they complain to you about this, though? Is this something they talk about?

Dave Rose:

Yeah, I mean, one thing that's interesting is when you're on stage and you're playing a 60, 75 minutes set or whatever, and you're playing songs from your catalog, one thing that you don't think about a lot, but when they hit that big hit, when they go into playing that big song that everybody knows of any song in that, it's almost like it's for them, it's a welcomed break in the set. Meaning when you're playing a new song, you're sort of working really hard to try to win this audience over on this new material or this unfamiliar material. So maybe if you're a rock band, you're probably moving around a little more. If you're whatever kind of band you are, you're just really giving it all to win over this crowd. But when you kick into a mega hit that they've heard a million times over, it's a moment you can just breathe.

Michael Jamin:

I see.

Dave Rose:

And go, okay, I'm good for three and a half minutes here. They're going to go nuts. No matter what we do.

Michael Jamin:

I would not have thought of. That's interesting you brought that up. I would not have thought it, but I would've thought it the other way around that like, oh, fuck, I got to play this again. But

Dave Rose:

No. Yeah, no. I do have a few artists that feel that way. One of my favorite moments in that regard was Sean Colvin. She's a kind of a folk songwriter artist, and she did end up having a big hit called Sonny Came Home, and that came out, I guess in the, I'm going to get the dates wrong, but that was a huge hit. Sonny came home and I went and saw Sean Colvin one night in concert, and she comes out on stage packed amphitheater, and she says, we're going to go ahead and play this song for those of you that just came to hear this, so you can go ahead and leave and the rest of us can have a good time.

Michael Jamin:

Is that what happened though?

Dave Rose:

That's why she opened the show when Sonny came home, and then what happened? I'm paraphrasing what she said there, but it was generally that for those of you that just came to hear the hit, let's play it. You can go about the way and sort of the implication was the rest of us who came to hear the entire catalog can now enjoy the show. Do

Michael Jamin:

You think people walked out? I mean,

Dave Rose:

Nobody left nobody. I was there. Nobody left. And that's a bold move. Yeah. I love that about her. And that's kind of the way a lot of artists feel about a big hit is like they don't dislike it. They love what it's brought to their career. They just dislike it being the only thing people may want to consume.

Michael Jamin:

I think about art, and you must have these conversations with your artists is like, how do you reinvent yourself on the next album when audience, your audience doesn't really want you to reinvent you. They want what they have, but if you give 'em the same, it's also like, yeah, we already have this. It seems so incredibly daunting to come up with another album that works,

Dave Rose:

Man. It is. And I got to say, in your world, I would think the same thing. How do you write the next episode given the audience what they want, but still keeping it

Michael Jamin:

Well, that's when they get mad at you. That's when they say the shows jumped the shark. Or they say, the show died four years ago. Jump

Dave Rose:

The Shark. Is that a

Michael Jamin:

Term? Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. You haven't heard it. That refers to an episode of Happy Days when Henry Winkler, they put him on water skis and he had to jump a shark tank. I remember

Dave Rose:

That.

Michael Jamin:

And he was wearing a leather jacket when you saw Fonzi jumping a Shark tank in a leather jacket. You go, all right, the show is Jump a Shark.

Dave Rose:

Oh, I got to remember that. Oh, yeah.

Michael Jamin:

It's a famous term. Yeah, I worked with Henry years ago and we spoke about that.

Dave Rose:

Oh, really?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. It's funny.

Dave Rose:

What did you work on with him?

Michael Jamin:

It was a show called Out of Practice with Henry Winkler and Stocker Channing and Ty Burrell, and they were the three main leads, and Henry's like the sweetest man in Hollywood. But we spoke a little bit about that

Dave Rose:

Being a child of sort of growing up in the eighties. I'm going to be remiss if we don't at least, and I'm sorry, man, talk about asking somebody about their hit. Please tell me about Beavis and Butthead for a minute. I mean, I don't care what you tell me about

Michael Jamin:

There's, there's very little I can tell you. So I was friend, this is when they brought the show back. It's been on three times already. And the second iteration, our friends, John Altro and Dave Krinsky, they were the showrunners. They created Silicon Valley and now they're running the second beavers. But that was so they needed freelance writers. It was a really low budget thing, and they reach out to us and the money was terrible, but we just had a break in our, we were in between shows, so the timing was perfect. They said, do you want to write some Beavis? But so we pitched them maybe 10 ideas. They bought four, but that was it. I mean, that was kind of the involvement. Then we went to see Mike Judge, we went to the record session. So we'll go to the booth and we're all watching videos, and we we're literally standing over his shoulders watching music videos, just pitching jokes about what beef is, and Bud would say, and then he would go into the booth, do the voice, and come back out. That was my involvement. So it was only we because wanted, it was just a fun experience. It was not for

Dave Rose:

Sure. Absolutely. What a, but again, I bet coming into it sort of midstream like that, what an even harder job. You've got hits. You want to give the audience what they expect, but you also want to give them what they don't expect. I mean, how you do that as an artist is hard.

Michael Jamin:

And do you have these conversations with your bands?

Dave Rose:

Absolutely. Yeah. Yes. Because the funny thing about music is none of us, if we sit down and listen to our Spotify list or whatever, and we have our catalog of music, none of us listen to one kind of music. We listen to all kinds of music, jazz and reggae and rock and whatever. We all have a mixture of taste, and depending on our mood, we want to explore that music. It's the same with artists. They don't think in one genre. They're artists. They're thinking all over the place. So it's really hard for them creatively to stay in this lane. It's why you see so many artists, I'm going to try to do a country record, or I'm going to try to do some other exploratory record, and that's okay. If you're Prince, you look like a genius. If you're Prince, if you're just starting out, you look confused. I don't know what I want to do, so I'm going to do a jazz song. So yeah, we do talk a lot about trying to stay, it's a terrible term for art, but trying to stay on brand with both your look and your sound and your music and the audience. When they go to buy a Bruce Springsteen record, they don't want to hear a jazz record. They want to hear good American rock and roll songs,

Michael Jamin:

But they also don't want to hear, I think you too may struggle with this. I think they got their sound, and it's like, all right, but I've already heard it.

Dave Rose:

They do struggle with that. Yeah, they've had a couple, and almost any act has their moment of when they look back on it, it's kind of like, what was I thinking?

Michael Jamin:

Right. I mean, to me, it sounds like I haven't listened to it in a while, but at one point I got an album there. I just thought it just sounded like every other, and they were amazing in the, I don't know, it seems like a very hard balancing act. How do you do this? How do you It

Dave Rose:

Is. It's why bands like Kiss, for example. I don't, I can't remember when. I think 20, I don't know. It was over 20 years since they recorded new music, just because they didn't want to attempt, they didn't top what they had done.

Michael Jamin:

I heard an interview by Cures for Fears, and they were talking about, and I didn't know this because really, I don't know the inside of music at all, but they were talking about how at one point, the album, I guess mid-career, that they were assigned a music producer and the producer kind of determined the sound. And I was, I surprised. I really thought that that's what they did. I thought they wrote all their songs and it said they were hearing songs written for them. I did not know that. I was really surprised. They are songwriters.

Dave Rose:

They are songwriters. And sometimes when a band or an artist hits that moment of how do we feed our fan base, but stay ahead of things, sometimes a good producer, outside writer can help move that along.

Michael Jamin:

On their last album, they shunned all that. They did it themselves, and I thought the album was terrific.

Dave Rose:

Yeah, I mean, I haven't heard it, but I've heard people say that,

Michael Jamin:

Oh, you haven't.

Dave Rose:

It's probably because they really went for the middle lane that they developed all along with their fan base. I mean, they're a brilliant act with an incredible catalog.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I mean, in the management world, at least in tv, in film, and for agents as well, it's not untypical for atypical for a writer or an actor to get to some point. Then they leave their manager or their agent, maybe they outgrow them or something happen. And how do you reconcile that?

Dave Rose:

Yeah, that happens all the time. In the music business, we call it the revolving door of managers and artists. I've had some come and go and come back and go,

Michael Jamin:

Really? Do you not take it personally then, or

Dave Rose:

One of the things you have to do is truly not take it personally. And sometimes it's sort of like I look at it like this. If you were to own a restaurant and that restaurant grows and changes and involves a different manager, has different skill sets. We're not all graded everything. We're good at certain things. And if you happen to be at the place in your career to where you're with a manager that is good at the things you need, that's a perfect relationship. If you happen to go outside of that, then you might need someone with a different skillset. And oftentimes a manager is the first to say, I feel like I've taken you as far as I can.

Let's find something new here. It's no different than a football coach or a restaurant manager or any sort of leader of a company. Sometimes for a lot of reasons, the stars align and sometimes they just don't. And if they don't, it's usually pretty recognizable to both parties. And there's very rarely, I mean, you certainly hear the stories both online and elsewhere of manager artists fallout, but by and large, I'm friends with every artist I've ever worked with, and I've never had a, I mean, I don't manage Bruce Hornsby anymore, but I just went backstage, went to his show and hung out with him after the show. And we talked about old times and had a good hang together. But there was a point in his career where I was and a point in my career where we just weren't at the same place, and I don't even mind sharing that. Yeah, please. He had been on RCA records for about 25 years, and the top brass at RCA was kind of changing, again, the revolving doors of executives at a record label, it was Tom. And so his life at RCA, his deal and relationship at RCA started to come to an end.

And I was really, really, I had two other bands at RCA. I was sort of really inside the walls of RCA records at the time, and so I wasn't really best suited for the next step in his career, which was to find a new label, a New York based label. I was very much Nashville centric at that point, and it was just, we came to a place where I felt like for him to go where he needed to go, he needed somebody else, and he felt the same. And

Michael Jamin:

It was, but that's another thing, because I see with my management, they have relationships at studios, and as you do have relationships and there, at the end of the day, you have your interests, and it is not like you're going to burn bridges with these studio that you have relationships with. You can only fight so much because of what you have with your other clients, right?

Dave Rose:

That's right. Yeah. It is probably like your business. It's a very small business at a certain level, a very small business. There's not a lot of, you're going to run into everybody again, and at some point you're going to want your act touring with their act, or you're going to want their act being featured on a record of your act. And if you burn bridges, it's just going to, I mean, I know people that do burn bridges, but it's rarely good.

Michael Jamin:

You are listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, a collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timbral. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirker View says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book. And now back to our show.

What is then the pinnacle for, I mean, we know what the pinnacle for an artist's career would be, whatever, selling a ton of records playing the Super Bowl, whatever they aspire to do, but what's the pinnacle for your career?

Dave Rose:

Oh, that's a great question. Yeah, it's interesting. I was taking my son to school the other day and he said, daddy, work seems like it's really fun, is work really fun. And he's come to my office before, and I got thinking about that, and I've chosen a path that really is fun. Never, this sounds corny to say I've never felt like I've worked a day in my life, really. It just really has never felt like work. I am so amazed that people pay me to do this. I was doing it long before I knew you could make money at it. And so the pinnacle for me is really that this continued joy of the business of music.

There's very few high level artists, celebrities I haven't met or come in contact with. And so none of that is really the moment for me. It's seeing an act like this band formerly that we're looking at. They're a country act. They've had four or five number one hits. They were playing in their garage in Greenville, North Carolina, small town where I grew up. I happened to just know them, and I took them to Nashville, one thing. So that's sort of what this business is for me. You see a band in a garage, and the next thing you know, they're accepting an award on stage, and it's just a beautiful feeling to know that you've helped an artist achieve those dreams.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting. It's interesting that that's where you take the joy in. I would think that part, you're not the one who wants that dream. You're not the one, the artist. You're not the one who wants that dream, your dream joy doing it for others.

Dave Rose:

I would think there's similar satisfaction in being a writer, I would think. I mean, maybe you were motivated to be on screen all the time or in front of the camera all the time, but

Michael Jamin:

No, not really. No, not really. But I think writers are worried about their career. I want to write this, I want to make a lot of money or whatever.

Dave Rose:

Yeah. Well, the money certainly an enjoyable part of it, but it's not the driving factor, and it can't be in music, so risky.

Michael Jamin:

But you also, I guess, arrange entertainment events,

Dave Rose:

Right? Oh, wow. Yeah, that's very, you did your homework. Yeah, so around the turn of the century, so I live in Raleigh, North Carolina. I'm in Nashville almost weekly, but I live in Raleigh, North Carolina, and in Raleigh, North Carolina, there are not a lot of artists management or record labels. It's a big, very creative music city, but there's not a lot of high level. So as Raleigh started to feel like they needed entertainment in their city and started thinking about amphitheaters and growth and expansion of their city, they kind of came to me saying, you've had artists play in these cities all over the country. Could you help us bring the good bad and the ugly of that to Raleigh and help us produce events? So yeah, over the past 20 years have become the kind of go-to, I produced the North Carolina State Fair and all the big festivals,

Michael Jamin:

But you keep it to this one region, though.

Dave Rose:

I do. I pretty much stay in the central, the Eastern North Carolina region. And it's funny because when bands go out on tour, I'm managing bands. I learned from Bruce Hornsby one time. I called him, I'd always check in after the show, and how did it go and whatever. And he went and played one show somewhere, and I said, how was the show? And he said, he kind of laughed while I said this, but he said, I was staring at a funnel cake sign the whole time. What

Michael Jamin:

Does that mean?

Dave Rose:

Funnel cakes? So you're playing this car almost like a carnival. Not that there's anything wrong with that, and there's plenty of respect in funnel cakes, but as an artist who played in the Grateful Dead Done Jazz records, not really his thing. So I kind of made a joke of always keep the funnel cake stand a little bit away from the stage, but I took all of this feedback from artists, what the backstage was like, what the stage was like, what the PA was like, what the lights were like. I took all the good, bad and the ugly from the artist, and I brought it back to my community to try to make the best concerts and events.

Michael Jamin:

I imagine there was a huge, not just a learning curve, but also financial risk in the beginning for you. No,

Dave Rose:

Yeah, I racked up a lot of credit cards.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, really? I mean,

Dave Rose:

Oh yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Wow.

Dave Rose:

Yeah. One of my, yeah, I sure did. We started this company on a credit card, and that's what got us going. We produced CDs on credit card. We racked up a lot of credit card debt hoping this would win.

Michael Jamin:

What do you, and it's paid off.

Dave Rose:

It's paid off,

Michael Jamin:

Right?

Dave Rose:

I paid it off last week.

Michael Jamin:

Just last week. You made a final payment, you got points for it. But what advice then, do you have for, I guess, new artists? I mean, maybe either musicians or, I dunno, artists.

Dave Rose:

Yeah. I think the hardest thing to do, particularly in this world of TikTok and YouTube and reels, is to really be authentically you, because it's so easy to want to try to be the person that just went viral,

And that's never going to move the needle. That's never going to make a big splash. You might have a moment, I don't know if you remember, maybe three or four months ago, there was an artist on TikTok named Oliver Anthony that went massively viral. He is a bearded guy from the mountains and kind of just sang very, very pure songs, but went enormously huge. And within weeks, you've got every mountain guy with a beard trying to do the same thing. And it's really hard to not do that. When we're faced with that all the time, back in the day of Led Zeppelin, the Rolling Stones and everything else, one didn't really know what the other was doing.

Michael Jamin:

So

Dave Rose:

You went into your bubble and you created art in a way that you felt led to do, and now you're so pressured to try to be the next viral thing, and that's the hardest thing. So my advice is don't do that.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. You also, it's funny because I am a fan of your tiktoks. You give such interesting, great advice. You gave one post, this was maybe half a year or maybe a year ago, I don't know. And I was like, yes, I wanted to stitch it, but I guess I just didn't have the balls. And then I forgot about it. The post you did was, I guess a lot of people come to you for advice, and they just think they can just, Hey, you pick your brain or buy you a cup of coffee cup as if your time is worth $5 an hour, because that's what coffee costs. But you handled it very gracefully and graciously, but I'm not sure. Did you get any blowback for it?

Dave Rose:

Yeah. You're on TikTok, the blowback key. I mean, you definitely get, but by and large, by and large, what I ended up getting is it's been beautiful actually. Ever since then, I've got a lot of artists coming to me saying, look, I'm not going to offer to buy you a cup of coffee. I know how you feel about that, but I would like 30 minutes of your time, and how would I go about doing that? That's a beautiful way, I mean, I really picked this up from an attorney one time, and I was on the three-Way call with an artist, an attorney, and myself, and the artist said to the attorney, Hey, I got this contract and I don't really have a lot of money to spend, but I was hoping you could read it over and I could buy you a cup of coffee and pick your brain

Michael Jamin:

On it. Yeah. What did the attorney say?

Dave Rose:

And the attorney said, look, I understand you mean well, but I only have two things to sell. I've got my time and my knowledge, and you have just asked for both of those things for free.

Michael Jamin:

Yes. That's a good way of saying it.

Dave Rose:

And I just thought, wow. That's right. And as a manager, that's what you have. You got your time, your knowledge, and your connections. And if you're picking my brain, you are asking for those things for free. And I don't have anything else to feed my family with, but

Michael Jamin:

I wonder, is it because, because people ask me the same thing, and I guess it's because some people are actually giving it to them for free. Do you think

Dave Rose:

It is? Yeah. I mean, they must be, or otherwise they wouldn't be doing it, I guess.

Michael Jamin:

But then I wonder if you're only paying $5 for advice, and that advice is only worth $5, I mean, why would you want to take $5 advice?

Dave Rose:

Right, exactly. Yeah. But yeah, that's been a tough part of the music business because yeah, so thanks for noticing that. But I do think we, as a sort of service society, whether you're a screenwriter or whether you're a manager or an agent or whatever, all people really have is what's in their head and their time. And so to take that so lightly is to think that buying you lunch is going to somehow make it worthwhile. It just doesn't, not only doesn't make sense in a strange way, it's rude.

Michael Jamin:

Well, I don't think it's strange. I mean, I do think it's rude. Yeah, yeah.

Dave Rose:

But as I said, I think in that TikTok, I said, I understand you're offering to buy me something. So I understand that you're trying to be in your own way, polite, but let me just educate you. That's not a compliment to say that your time is worth a cup of coffee.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, yeah. But I appreciated that video. I really did. I was like, do

Dave Rose:

You get a lot of people asking to pick your brain?

Michael Jamin:

Yes. I guess less and less, but

Dave Rose:

You do some consulting as well, right?

Michael Jamin:

Well, what I did was eventually I signed up for, there's this app where you can sign up to be an expert. And so people ask me a question, sometimes it's an autoresponder, and it says, if you want to book time with Michael, you can do it. So here, a half a dozen people have booked. Everyone's asking, but no one books time. So to me, interesting. And I didn't do it because that's to make money, but I was like, well, look, if you want it, you're going to have to pay. But they don't want it bad enough to pay. So,

Dave Rose:

Well, it's interesting. I'm on a platform called August managers.io, and that's where I do my 30 minute consultations. And I've partially used it as a filter. It's funny, I'll get artists that go out and spend $10,000 on recording and $10,000 on video and photo shoots, and then they'll come to me and say, can I pick your brain for a cup of coffee? And I'm thinking, you have just spent $20,000 making music, and now the most important part, getting it out to the public, that's worth a cup of coffee to you. So I sort of use this platform as a filter. It's like Chemistry 1 0 1 in college. If you're willing to just invest a tiny bit to spend a little bit of time with a professional, I at least know you're serious.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. That's how I see it as well. So you're weeding people out. They don't really want, yeah, I guess that's how unserious they are. If they're getting caught up on booking a half hour with me, then they don't really want,

Dave Rose:

I would think in your world, people want you to read their script, is

Michael Jamin:

That, oh, there's a lot of that, but you got to pay me way more than, I mean, here's the thing. I don't even do it, but they all want it. They want me to spend an hour and a half reading their script, another hour assembling notes, and then another hour on a phone call them giving them my notes while they get angry and defensive telling me why I'm wrong and do it for free. I mean, oh, yeah, okay. That sounds like a ball to me. But it's not about the money. The answer is no, all around. But it also exposes me to liability side because I don't want to be sued for taking someone's idea. So

Dave Rose:

Totally. I mean, that's a big part of the music business a lot. You'd hear about unsolicited music, and a lot of people, myself included, will not even open an email with music attached if I don't know who it is. Is it

Michael Jamin:

Because for liability reasons?

Dave Rose:

Yeah. They

Michael Jamin:

Think you're going to steal their sound or their song.

Dave Rose:

I think Yes. I think they do think that. And I think in the history of the music business, that has happened maybe three times. I mean, it just doesn't happen. Interesting. So it's funny that that's a topic even, I don't know if it happens in the film and TV business, but in the music business that anytime you've heard of a lawsuit of one suing the other about a sound, it's very, very rarely actual theft. Most often, there's only eight chords, and you can arrange them in only so many ways. And if you're in a genre like hip hop or country where it's in some ways a little bit of a formula in the way your pop music is that way, you write very narrow melodies and chord progressions. It's bound to your, I mean, about the a hundred thousand songs released a day, you're bound to cross paths there in a close manner. It's very rarely malicious.

Michael Jamin:

So then how are you listening to new music, if at all? Is it because you see an act on stage or something?

Dave Rose:

Yeah, no, I will listen to it if it's coming to me from a vetted source or if it's coming to me in a way that I feel. But I get a lot of just very blind emails, never met, seen, heard of the person. And one of my favorite quotes was Gene Simmons said one time, look, if I'm hearing about you for the first time from you, you're not ready.

Michael Jamin:

You're not ready. Interesting.

Dave Rose:

Because we keep our ears to the ground. I mean, I'm hearing about artists all the time. I mean, I can't go to the dentist without hearing about five new artists. People know that we work in the music business. So no matter where I go, the coffee shop, the dentist, the pizza shop, whatever, they're going to tell me about their cousin that just released a song. That's the next Beatles. So I hear about stuff, and if I hear about it from 7, 8, 9 different places, I start to know there's something there.

Michael Jamin:

Right. I directed Gene Simmons, by the way, on an animated show. I had to yell. No

Dave Rose:

Way.

Michael Jamin:

Well, yeah. Well, he came into the studio like a rockstar, which is what he is, of course. And then he is holding court and, Hey, dude, we're paying for this thing. And I knew I was going to get yelled at by my boss, so I had to say, Hey, gene, we're recording now. I had to tell shot him, get onto the microphone.

Dave Rose:

Oh, that's awesome. He is a really interesting person. I've met him a couple of times. I really am amazed by his story.

Michael Jamin:

That's funny. Chrissy Hy came in. My partner had to direct Chrissy, and she came in also like a rockstar into the booth, and she's smoking a cigarette and you're not supposed to with the equipment. And he asked her to put it out, and she wouldn't. And he was like, that's fine with me. Whatcha going to do?

Dave Rose:

I love it. She's

Michael Jamin:

Chrissy Hein. She gets to do what she wants. But that's so interesting. Yeah. I get that same sometimes when people ask me a question and I wonder if you feel the same way about breaking into the business or some kind of basic thing. They leave a comment and I'm like, all you got to do is just scroll down and all my videos are labeled. You're going to find it. I wonder how bad you want it. If you feel like you have to ask me without looking. This is literally the least you have to do to find an answer nowadays.

Dave Rose:

I did a video recently where one of the most common questions I get is, somebody will present their music to me and they'll say, do you think I have what it takes to make it? And that is without question, the hardest question to answer because I don't know your definition of make it. And to be honest, a lot of people don't know their definition of make it. I had a band come into my office one time, they finally, they've been wanting to line up a meeting. They came in and they said, I said, so what do you guys want to do? What are you hoping to do? And they said, well, we want to be successful. You know what I mean? And I said, well, no, I don't know what you mean. Tell me what success means to you. And they said, well, we want to make a living at music.

I said, well, that's good. I can have you doing that within 30 days. And they kind of looked at me like, wow. We hit the jackpot coming to this meeting, and I said, here's what we're going to do. We're going to buy you a bunch of tuxedos. You're going to learn some top 40 songs. We're going to play the wedding and corporate cover circuit, make a great living. They kind of looked at you and they were like, no, that's not what we meant. Okay, let me change that answer. We want to make a living playing our music. I said, alright. Little bit harder to do, but we can still do it. There's sports bars around the country where you set up in the corner and they don't really care what you play, your background music, but you make a pretty decent living. You'll make good tips.

We're like, no, no. Lemme think about this. They thought about it for a little bit more and they said, okay, we got it. We want to be on the radio. Then one other guy spoke up and he said, playing our music. I said, okay, I got you, my friend does the Sunday night local show on the radio station. He's a friend of mine. He'll play anything I send him. I'll send him your song, he'll play it on Sunday. You will have been successful. And they like, all right. And one guy spoke up at that point and he said, I see what you're trying to do. You're trying to confuse us. I said, no, no, no. You're quite confused on your own I'm trying to do is point out that I can't help you until you know what you want. And there's no wrong answer to that. Some artists come to me and say, I want world domination. I want to be the next big, huge thing. And others simply say, I just want to make great music and I don't really care if I make a living. I just want good quality music out there.

Michael Jamin:

Is that right?

Dave Rose:

Oh yeah. People

Michael Jamin:

Really do. But I imagine, I mean, you got to pay your bills. That's not attractive to you. Right?

Dave Rose:

It's not attractive to me and that's okay, but there's still a place for that in this world. But yeah, and here's the other thing. A lot of people think they want that world domination and playing arenas, but the moment we start saying things like, well, let's say a country artist came to me and they said, I want to be the biggest country star in the world. First thing out of my mouth would be, you're going to need to move to Nashville. You don't need to do that in every genre, but in country, that's a must be present To Win town, you're going to have to be in Nashville. Well, I don't really want to do that. I got this and a job and whatever. So I tell people all the time, prioritize where music is in your life. It doesn't have to be number one, but just knowing where it is will help you make decisions on what's most important. When I give advice to artists, I often ask them, do you have kids and are you married? And tell me about your personal life. The truth is, the advice I give to someone with a two month old baby at home is different than a single 21-year-old that can go out and explore the world.

Michael Jamin:

What do you think it is that people like me, Hollywood, what do I get? What do we get wrong about the music industry when we portray it on TV and film?

Dave Rose:

Oh wow. Well, it's funny because in every music based show, I used to watch the show Nashville, which was produced very well, and it was done in Nashville, so it had a lot of authenticity to it. But I think what I don't think you get it wrong, I think you have to portray it this way because that's the way TV is made. But you can go from in one episode writing a song to going on tour with Bon Jovi all within a week or two's time, what seems like a week or two's time in a film or TV show. And it's a laborious, long as you know from any aspect of entertainment, it's years before you start to take off from that runway. It's a several year runway, but I think the public as a result of just all of our short attention spans shows and even movies have to be written. So that what seems like in a couple of months, couple of weeks, sometimes you go from writing this song to touring with Beyonce.

Michael Jamin:

Why do you think, and I say this selfishly, I want to know for myself, why do you think the runways is so long before you take off? Why does that mean, why does it take so long?

Dave Rose:

Well, I think a lot of it is because writing music, like writing anything takes a lot of hours to get good at it.

Michael Jamin:

Okay, but let's say you got your album out and it's a great album now it's going to take years before

Dave Rose:

No, no, no, no, no. It's going to take years to get that great

Michael Jamin:

Album. Right. Okay.

Dave Rose:

Right. Once that great album is assembled and together, it can be a relatively, I mean, it can be a relatively short runway to success once that great in Nashville, there's a saying when somebody comes into me with a publisher and a publisher is someone who oversees the copyrights of songs, but when someone comes to me with a publisher and they say, how many songs have you written? No matter what the answer is, they almost always say, come back when you've written your next a hundred. Really, there's kind of an unwritten seven year rule in Nashville. You should not expect success for at least seven years after you come to town

Michael Jamin:

With your first album,

Dave Rose:

With your first set of releases. It just takes that long to get really, really top level good at this in any genre. I think, I mean, if there was a comment section on this podcast, there would be tons of people giving me the exceptions to those rules right now, which is the beauty of the music business or any entertainment. There's exceptions to that rule. There's overnight sensations, but by and large, most of the big artists had a long runway.

Michael Jamin:

So you're listening, if you were listening to an album by a new artist, you're thinking, okay, maybe one or two songs has got something in the rest are just not there. You're saying

Dave Rose:

Sometimes. Yeah, sometimes. I mean, you take a band, it's funny, that first hit, I worked with Sex and Candy, the band, Marcy Playground, between the time they rode and recorded that and it became a number one hit was four years.

Michael Jamin:

Okay,

Dave Rose:

Four years.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Okay. So they had the goods, but it took four years before people discovered they had the goods.

Dave Rose:

That's right. That was a very interesting journey. They charted on college radio and then they tried to work to regular radio. It didn't happen, and they label problems and they tried again and it finally happened. Same thing with this band, sixpence On The Richer and the song Kiss Me. They had that song Kiss Me on a Record, and it did not become a hit for another two years.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. Okay. So then how do they do that? Is it just touring? Is it just getting it out there? Just having people listen,

Dave Rose:

In the nineties it was touring. It was just getting out there and touring

Michael Jamin:

Even. Not today. You're saying today's it's not like that today.

Dave Rose:

It's not. I mean, it's some touring is one aspect of it, but the beauty of Michael, you and I would not be here talking if it were not for TikTok. And as much as I love to hate on social media platforms for all the reasons they're easy to hate on there is I tell our assist all the time. There is someone in Topeka, Kansas right now that loves what you do. You just got to find them. And if you do, there'll be fans for life. But unless you plan on touring Topeka, Kansas this week, you're not going to find 'em. So get online and post

Michael Jamin:

How many, I've heard numbers and I if it's true, but how many crazy, what's the word, rabid fans, do you need think a band needs before they hit critical mass?

Dave Rose:

Well, critical mass is a subjective term, but I say this a lot. You only need a thousand fans. And I'm talking about real fans. Fans that would give the shirt off their back fans. I'm not talking about followers,

Michael Jamin:

I'm not

Dave Rose:

Talking about likes or subscribes,

Michael Jamin:

Right? People who open their wallet,

Dave Rose:

A thousand fans that consume everything you put out. That's all you need to make a great living in music.

Michael Jamin:

But how is that possible? Okay, so if you've had a thousand fans, they're scattered all across the country and I don't understand, how does that make you a good living? You can put it on a new album to a thousand fans. How does that make you a living?

Dave Rose:

I'll tell you how that is because when I was 10 years old, I had a older cousin, cousin Rick and I went to his house and he had a wall of vinyl records, more vinyl records than you could ever imagine. And he reached and he had got a new stereo and he wanted to show me the stereo, and he pulled up a Boston record, the classic rock band Boston. They had just put out their first record and he put it on the turntable and he was telling me everything he needed to tell me about Boston, and I was just mostly fascinated by the fact that of a thousand records on his wall, he picked that one to tell me about it. And from there I went and bought the record. I consumed, I bought the T-shirts, I bought this. The thing about a thousand fans is they're your marketing arms. A thousand fans are not going to keep your music close to their chest and keep it over here in the corner. They're going to tell everybody that'll possibly listen. And if you've got a fan that it gets in the car with their friends and they got three minutes to the next drive and a billion songs to choose from, they're going to choose yours. And that's going to turn those fans, those friends into fans. So it starts with a thousand core fans and you can really take over the world.

Michael Jamin:

I wonder, and again, I say this selfishly, I put out a book, and so this is the first venture. I've done solo like this, and so I'm curious how many, when do I go viral? How does that work for me? When do my thousand fans kick in and how does that

Dave Rose:

Work? I think a book is the hardest thing in the world. I've now released, I'm about to release my third book, and it is the hardest thing. God bless you. This is a great book. And by the way, everybody, I mean John Mayer endorses it. I loved your video on John Mayer,

Michael Jamin:

By the way.

Dave Rose:

I mean, that's insane. But yeah. Yeah. I hope your thousand fans, I feel like they're out there

Michael Jamin:

Because you think because no one wants to read, you're saying

Dave Rose:

No. I think fans do want to read. I mean, do you have an audio version of this?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I have an audiobook. Yeah.

Dave Rose:

Yeah. So you've 'em covered whether they want to read or not. Right,

Michael Jamin:

Right. Interesting. Okay.

Dave Rose:

Did you read the book for the audio version?

Michael Jamin:

Perform it really? It's a performance. Yeah.

Dave Rose:

Yeah. Oh, cool. Yeah, I'll have to listen to that. That sounds really interesting. No, I think a thousand fans can be your marketing champions, but getting those thousand is hard. It's the equivalent of having a thousand really good friends that really care about what you do. They're passionate about your calls, your reason for doing this.

Michael Jamin:

But do you have any evidence to suggest that a thousand is the right number? You know what I'm saying?

Dave Rose:

I don't. Right. Well, I know this, there's a lot. One of the revenue streams right now for artists is things like Patreon and Patreon's a big thing for the super fan. The super fan will give you a little bit of money each month, three, five, $10 to consume a little extra insight into your life, whether that be unreleased songs or behind the scenes videos or whatever that might be.

Michael Jamin:

That seems hard though, but I'm sorry, go ahead.

Dave Rose:

If you have a thousand people willing to give you $5 a month cup of coffee back to our cup

Michael Jamin:

Of coffee,

Dave Rose:

$5 a month, that's $5,000 a month just on that one revenue stream. They're also going to consume your music. They're going to buy your T-shirts, they're going to come to your shows, but more importantly, a thousand fans can quickly turn viral into 10,000 when they're passionately telling everyone under the sun about you.

Michael Jamin:

You must must talk about this with your bands about shutting a Patreon, but don't they say, well, we are already posting on social media. What the hell else do we have to say behind the paywall when we're already saying everything? We're already struggling to give enough for free.

Dave Rose:

The thing that I'm finding is working the most is one-on-one or Experiences. For example, I have this one artist that does listening parties on their Patreon. They go on and they play their music, and they'll talk about the making of it, and they'll pause the record and they'll say, Hey, I was trying this solo and it didn't work. And these are one-on-one, and the people are shooting questions and the artist is answering them, and they're not recorded, and they happen in the moment. And so for an extra five bucks a month, you get to get inside the life of that artist, and

Michael Jamin:

You can put that inside Patreon. How is it being broadcast?

Dave Rose:

So it's being broadcast just on a Zoom, but only patrons have that link and they have a special code to get in and all that sort of stuff,

Michael Jamin:

And that's kind of what they're doing for $5 a month. You get basically that

Dave Rose:

You get experiences. Some artists, it really depends on your fan base. Some artists release a song per month. They'll write a song and release it. Got a Texas artist that I'm friends with that that's what he does. He releases a song only to his Patreon crowd once a month. He's such a prolific writer. He could probably write an album per month. So putting an extra song on Patreon that nobody else hears is,

Michael Jamin:

And no one else will hear that song. Nobody

Dave Rose:

Else

Michael Jamin:

Will ever. I mean, that seems almost crazy.

Dave Rose:

Well, I wouldn't say ever, but in some ways you can use Patreon as your vetting for what songs you should be releasing.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting.

Dave Rose:

You can put 'em out there to your thousand hardcore fans and watch which ones they really react to.

Michael Jamin:

Do you have a Patreon?

Dave Rose:

I don't personally, no. I run a lot of Patreons for artists. I don't personally have one. No,

Michael Jamin:

Those are all interesting ideas. Any other you? No, but I've been, here's the thing, Dave, every time I should, but I'm like, do I really want to put more on my plate? You know what I'm saying? It's putting stuff on your plate.

Dave Rose:

You've got a great course. I've been very much admiring your ability to put out courses, and one of the things I've liked that you've done, I've noticed, is you put out very specific topics for a pretty low amount.

Michael Jamin:

Well, it's free. I do these webinars that are free. Well,

Dave Rose:

The webinars, the free webinars are insane. I, but I would think that's got to help in the overall big picture of things. No,

Michael Jamin:

Maybe yes and no. Yes and no. We could talk more. Maybe we'll talk more about that off the podcast. I'll get your advice on something. Yeah, but

Dave Rose:

You do have courses, right? I mean,

Michael Jamin:

I have one course. Yeah, it's a screenwriting course. Yeah. Yeah.

Dave Rose:

And I mean, somebody might buy that in the middle of the night and you're making money without having Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Right. Which is nice. And that supports me, that allows me to do the creative things that I want to do that don't necessarily make a lot of money, but I want to do 'em. So yeah.

Dave Rose:

What are you working on right now that you're able to tell,

Michael Jamin:

Oh, well, you're

Dave Rose:

Able to

Michael Jamin:

Share? Right now it's about putting my book, getting my book out there. We're pitching an animated pilot in the next couple of weeks. Will it sell? I don't know. We'll see. And then we'll pitch a couple other shows. Will it sell? We don't know. That's how it goes.

Dave Rose:

I want to mention that real quick as it relates to your music audience. That's a big question. I guess somebody will write a song and send it to me and say, do you think I could sell this to another artist? Which is interesting because in music it does not work that way at all. You don't sell a song.

Michael Jamin:

I think you write a song. I think you could be a songwriter for somebody. So what's the difference then?

Dave Rose:

So when you write a song, you basically give that song to an artist, and if that artist chooses to cut it, you are in a revenue stream on that.

Michael Jamin:

Right? Okay. That you

Dave Rose:

Don't sell songs. Big misconception in the music business,

Michael Jamin:

But I guess I'm not clear on the difference then wouldn't you send them a track and say, do you like this? And then you have to send 'em a track. They have to hear it, right?

Dave Rose:

Yeah. They have to hear it. And if they like it, they cut it. They don't pay you for that song. Whenever that song is played on the radio, you get a royalty stream from that, or you get a royalty stream

Michael Jamin:

From

Dave Rose:

It's spun on Spotify royalty stream from that. But the artist is not buying a song from you, and by the way, you still own that song. So you can take that song to someone else and to someone else and to someone else. That's why you have lots of different cover versions of

Michael Jamin:

Oh, I see. Song. Okay, so you can get three different artists. I would've thought if you, I'm so sorry, I meant to put this on silent. Lemme this right now, I can

Dave Rose:

Hear.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. I would've thought when whoever major, whatever, Taylor Swift, I dunno, maybe she probably writes all her own music, but if she didn't were to agree to record your song, I would've thought she'd say, no, it's me and me alone.

Dave Rose:

You can't do that. It's not the way, yeah. I mean, she can say, I'm the first one to do it. You can't let someone else do it first. But once a song, this is an interesting part of the music business, but once a song is in the public demand, once it's been released, anyone can cover it. Day Taylor Swift releases a song, you, Michael Jamin can go the very next day and record that song as long as the proper royalties are paid to her as the songwriter.

Michael Jamin:

Why is that not done more often then?

Dave Rose:

You don't even need to ask her permission. I mean, it is done. Just pop on Spotify or YouTube. If you take any song, take a Taylor Swift song and just search YouTube or search Spotify, and you're going to see hundreds of versions of that song.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, okay. Interesting. Yeah. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. Wow. See, I'm long on all this stuff. I failed. This has been a very eyeopening conversation for

Dave Rose:

Me. Oh man. Next week I'm going to reverse the, I'm going to be asking you questions. If I had a podcast, you'd be my first

Michael Jamin:

Guest. I would appreciate that. No, I would do it in a heartbeat. Dave Rose, you are, thank you so much, and I want to make sure everyone knows where they can follow you on all their social media.

Dave Rose:

Yeah, so the name of my company is Deep South. If you search Dave Rose Deep South on almost any, I mean, stick it in Google and that'll take you everywhere You need

Michael Jamin:

To go take everywhere. Go follow. I mean, go follow him. There's so much overlap, I feel between the things that we say, and yet still, I feel like I learn a lot just by listening to you and watching

Dave Rose:

You. Likewise, when I started following your page, I was like, wow, there is a lot of similarities

Michael Jamin:

In this business. Yeah, it's so interesting. But thank you again so much. Thank you. What a wonderful conversation. Don't go anywhere. Don't stay right there. Alright, everyone, what a great conversation we had. Go follow Dave Rose and Deep South and until Next Week, keep writing.

Wow. I did it again. Another fantastic episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertiser supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asks the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most? Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I loved the Journey, and Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More. Great stuff coming next week.

On this week's episode, we have actor Cynthia Mann Jamin (Friends, Ahh! Real Monsters, Angry Beavers and many many more) and we discuss her journey as an actor and director. We also talk about how the two of us met as well as what it’s like working together. Tune in for so much more.

Cynthia Mann Jamin IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0542699/

Cynthia Mann Jamin on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/prime-video/actor/Cynthia-Mann/amzn1.dv.gti.ca37e830-61b1-44db-8fe5-979422acb482

Cynthia Mann Jamin Shop: https://www.twirlygirlshop.com/

A Paper Orchestra on Website: https://michaeljamin.com/book

A Paper Orchestra on Audible: https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1

A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4

A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestra

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Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

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Cynthia Mann Jamin:

If it wasn't something that was organic for you, it would be torture trying to become this person that you think other people want to see, or you got to position yourself like this other person over here. But it really is about finding your unique voice because that's all we have.

Michael Jamin:

You are listening to What The Hell Is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase. And to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.

Michael Jamin:

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode. I have a very special guest today, the very beautiful and talented, I'm going to call her Cynthia Mann, although she's now currently Cynthia Mann Jamin and she's my wife and Cynthia. I met years ago, I was a writer on a show called Just Shoot Me, and she was the guest star and she was a working actor and she worked on many shows including she was a recurring on Friends. She had, I dunno, five or so or six episodes on Friends Recurring on Veronica's Closet, Seinfeld, er Suddenly Susan Will and Grace, all those shows of the nineties, all those musty TV shows. She did almost all of them. And now she is the director and producer of my one man show as well as the audio book. So I thought a paper orchestra. So she did all of that. So I thought we would talk to her about that and about her experience working in Hollywood as well as directing and producing my audiobook for all of you people who aspire to do something similar. Hello, Cynthia.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Hi Michael.

Michael Jamin:

Hello. My beautiful wife. She's in the other room. We're pretending we live far apart, but actually we live very close to each other.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

You could say we're roommates.

Michael Jamin:

This is my roommate, Cynthia. So thank you so much for doing this. Thank you, most of all for producing and directing my show. And I don't know, where do we begin? What should we start with?

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Well, I think it's, the thing that's interesting is people might want to know how is it working together and why do we work together?

Michael Jamin:

I don't have an answer for that. You're cheap labor. That's why we work. I don't have to pay you. Why is that? Why we work together?

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Well, it's funny because it goes all the way back to when we were first dating. I think if you want to talk about that because Go ahead. Well, we love doing projects together.

Michael Jamin:

Projects, we call them projects. How the Canadians say It. Project,

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah, projects. And when we first met it was kind of like, well, we had this common interest of he's a writer, I'm an actor, but it's like you can't sit around all day and just write and act. So we would find common things that we like to take walks, we like to do hiking. I taught you about Run Canyon, you were running in the flats. And I'm like, what the hell are you doing? Why are you running in the flats? Why don't you run up a hill?

Michael Jamin:

I didn't realize you could. It was so steep. And then you said you ran it. So I said, oh, alright. I guess I could try running it. I

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Totally ran it. I ran it all the time. I had, I had really muscular legs. You

Michael Jamin:

Did. I

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Know you did. Yeah. And I still do. But yeah, so we would find little things to do and I would take you around LA and get you lafy and teach you what Celestial seasonings

Michael Jamin:

And

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Stuff. Yes, tea

Michael Jamin:

Is and also Whole Foods and Mrs. Gooch's. Mrs.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Gooch's. Yeah. This is way back. We

Michael Jamin:

Would go to all this. She didn't approve of the supermarkets that I went to. So you

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Can go in there. I'm not going to get my food there you there though.

Michael Jamin:

And so many ways You helped me a lot with art because you are an artist. You were a starving artist when I met you.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Oh yes. Yeah. Well, barely getting by. I would say would barely getting by. I've had every survival job you can think of. I've done singing telegrams with the monkey that goes like this, and I've done sold shoes and I've waitressed and I've done a million survival jobs. So in my thirties I finally started to get acting jobs and I was a professional dancer for a while. And Grit didn't go to college right away, only finished two years of it. Later in my thirties when I met Michael, I was going to college and working and going on auditions and all of that. And when I met Michael, it was one of those crazy auditions where the casting director, Deb Burki, who I'm forever grateful for, she brought me in just to the callback. She didn't even read me first because we had had a relationship and she always appreciated my work and thought, oh, this is good for Cynthia.

Let me just bring her in straight to the producers. And I remember Steve Levitan was there, probably Andy Gordon and Eileen because it was their episode and Eileen Khan and I got that job. She called me the next day and just said, yeah, you got it. And I was like, oh, yay. I'm so excited. And they only booked me for three days. So when I went on the set, it was at Universal because I didn't really know what Just Shoot Me was. It was a new show and I don't think it was airing yet. It was just the first six episodes. So nobody really knew what it was about or the tone or anything. And I just went in, did my scene, went home prepared to come back the next day for shoot day. Really? And you guys sent me a script at nine in the morning or something like that and said, we rewrote your scene because we found a better way to write this scene. I don't know, you can tell me the behind the scenes of that. I don't really know why you did that.

Michael Jamin:

I don't really remember why that was rewritten. It was a long time ago.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

I think it was. Maybe it just wasn't exciting enough or something. And you wanted the dialogue to be between me and Laura more.

Michael Jamin:

I don't

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Remember. Instead of the roommate. And so you guys had me into the writer's room before, which is very unusual. You never really go into a writer's room to work out a scene. But because we were shooting it that day and we had to go straight to the run through and I think the network was going to be there. You didn't want to mess around. And so you gave me notes and we rehearsed it and Laura was there and the other scene partner who, I'm so sorry, I forgot his name. Chris,

Michael Jamin:

I want to say.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah, Chris. And then we just went and shot it. And then I shoot the scene at night and I'm like, oh my God, this was so much fun. And it was great. And I'm like, all right, I'm going to go. And who's standing right next to me as I'm walking off the set and kind of hanging back and it was you.

Michael Jamin:

It was me,

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

It was you.

Michael Jamin:

And then you said you wanted to marry me. I said, I don't even know you.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

I complimented your tie. That's right. And then you said, I did a really nice job. Yeah, you did. And I said thank you. And then we were talking about, I think you said, so what do you like to do for fun? Or something like that. Yeah. We went and I asked you that and you said you swing dance. And I had already been swing dancing at the Derby many times with my friend Brendan. And we would go and swing dance. So

Michael Jamin:

My

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Knees went weak when you

Michael Jamin:

That's right. I took, it was either you or Brendan I took you.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

So then long story short, there was a couple of weeks that went by and you called me and said, hi, this is Michael. And I said, I don't remember that name, but you're making it up because he has that name. And then you said, no, it's me and I would like to take you out for coffee. And I said, I don't drink coffee. I drink tea.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, we had tea instead.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

He said, that's okay, huh?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, yeah. Right.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

And then I remember this, Michael, on our first date, I hung back in my car because I think I saw you walk in. I'm like, I got to be a little late. I got to make him wait for me a little bit. So I made you wait just a little bit. And then I go in and the woman comes and says, so do you want a chocolate chip or oatmeal cookie, highland grounds? And it's not there anymore, I don't think. And you took the longest time figuring out what flavor you wanted. For me it was easy. It was chocolate chip or peanut butter. That was the other one. And then you go, I go, why did it take you so long to order the cookie? And you go, because I wasn't sure if there was anything to be gained by lying.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I was trying to impress you with the choice of cookies.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Weirdest thing anyone said to me that you cared enough about. The cookie choice is crazy.

Michael Jamin:

And then we've been together ever since.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

We've been together ever since. And to go back to the projects, we started with tiling a table that now our daughter has at her college apartment. And that was our first project. And then we decided to have kids, and that was our second project.

Michael Jamin:

Then

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

I started my business Twirly Girl, which I ran for 15 years. Still going, but not as big. And you helped me with that. You wrote all my commercials and did all of that. And then you wrote a book and then I'm helping you with that. So I think we're better when we're working together, honestly.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah,

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

I do. I think it's, when I was doing Twirly Girl and you were working as a writer and all of that, we never really connected on any kind of common ground aside from the kids because you were always doing your thing. I was doing my thing. But then when you started to write the commercials, I think our relationship went to another level because it's like you're appreciating the other person for their gifts and what they bring to you. But it's also like you're helping me with something that really means a lot to me. And it was like this back and forth that just felt so great. And I trusted you more than anyone to put me in the best light. And I think that's the same with you trusting me with your words because I care about them and I want to present you in the best light and I'll work tirelessly to get it.

Michael Jamin:

And you have produce the audio book and you had to learn how to do all that. What do you have to tell people? What do you have to share? What wisdom can you share with people on starting something like this?

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

I would say, and I was talking to Lola about this last night, and what occurred to me was that when you have the pinch or you have the idea, just the idea to do something and it's filling you with a lot of joy and passion and it almost creates its own engine in you, and you just feel so motivated to attack it and see if you can accomplish it. It almost doesn't matter if anybody else likes it because it's something you need to do. And I felt that way with my business. I remember creating these dresses and going, I know they're special. I know they are so special. And I don't even, the icing on the cake is that other people love them, but that's not why I'm doing itm doing it because I need to do it. And it's bringing me so much joy and it's fulfilling something in me that was missing or that I didn't even know that I needed.

And it brought me so much that I could have more than I could have ever thought, oh, I'm going to make dresses because it's going to give me a sense of self. It's going to fire that entrepreneurial spirit. It's going to make me feel connected to those around me. I'm going to share my story about it. I couldn't have thought that I just followed the desire to make something. And then all these things kind of cascaded. And that's what I'm telling you. That's how I feel about the audio book. When you said, all right, you're going to direct and you're also going to edit it and you're going to do all these things, I'm like, I don't know how to do Pretty much, I knew how to direct because of the acting background, but I didn't know how to do an audiobook. We didn't know how we wanted this to come into the world and what it would look like. But I felt that desire, that same joy to just achieve this. And we love it and we know we did an amazing job, and the fact that it's resonating with other people is icing on the cake because we couldn't not do it.

Michael Jamin:

But you still had to learn a lot of skills to do that.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Well, I think I love, I'm one of those people that loves learning by doing. You would tell me, watch the videos on how to do it. And I was like, this is not going to go anywhere for me because I'm not going to retain it unless I need it. If I need to know how to do something, then I'm going to learn it. So I learned by doing it. And that process is so exciting to me because I know that I'm also growing as a person if I can accomplish something really hard that I don't think I know how to do or I've never done before. So that challenge is also really gratifying for me.

Michael Jamin:

And now there's the next challenge, which is taking it on the road.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

And we have no clue how to do that either. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

We'll figure it out. I guess we'll just make it happen.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

It's really just about putting your energy into something and then watching as things start falling into place.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Exactly. You don't know what you don't know, but you'll find it out. And then that thing will lead to another thing. And we have very different styles. You and I, what my sense of what you do, and you tell me what you think mine is, but my sense of what your approach is is you throw a hundred percent of your energy into thinking about it, and you're almost like tunnel vision. You have to be so hyperfocused on it until you get it to where you want it to be and nothing distracts you. What do you think my style is? I'm just, is that I have that right?

Michael Jamin:

I'm not really sure. I guess so I'm not really sure I, I guess I work on it until I'm done.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

But it is like you have this hyper focus about it. And for me, I kind of feel guilty if I'm not like you just sitting at the computer and studying it and figuring it out, then to me, I have to walk away and I have to kind of let it settle. And then I have to really check in with my intuition in a way and go, okay, what's the next right move? Where do I need to spend my energy is just spinning my wheels, trying to figure it out, doesn't work for me. And I feel like you are good at that. You're good at like, okay, I'm going to figure this out. And you just keep working it and working it kneading the dough. And for me, I have to leave it and come back to it.

Michael Jamin:

All of it was every single part of it. None of it's easy. I don't know why people expect it to be easy. We all want it to be easy, but it never is. The creating of it is never easy. And then the marketing of it, putting it out there and getting people to, that's half the battle.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

And I think the main thing that we discovered, and I think you working with Twirly Girl really helped you with this project because you saw how being authentic and really communicating with your audience in a very real way resonates. And there's no other way to do it because how could you post every single day if it wasn't something that was organic for you, it would be torture, trying to become this person that you think other people want to see, or you got to position yourself like this other person over here. But it really is about finding your unique voice because that's all we have. There's a million books out there. There's a million dresses. I created dresses. There's a million of them. We don't need another one. But what we don't have is the dress that I can make. What we don't have is the book that you can write. And I think leaning into that perspective is really, really empowering and crucial to the creative process.

Michael Jamin:

We would speak a lot. We would go on walks and speak a lot about, in the beginning we would talk about what the function of art is, what's the expectation and what the market is. I remember talking about, because David Sedaris is the one who inspired me to write this. I love his writing. And it's the same genre, personal essays, and I remember talking to you, but we know what he writes. People love, we know there's a market for it. So I be doing that.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah, I, but he's kind of paved the way, and that was inspiring. I think inspiration is so healthy, and that's what you were inspired by. But the whole thing that you talk about is finding your voice, and it took you a while to find the rhythm. And people, when they read it, they're never going to confuse David s and Michael Jamin. They're never going to, because your background in TV gave you this whole different way of going into a story and entertaining an audience. And that's just in your blood. It's in your makeup, it's just who you are and the details of everything that you write. It reads like a film or cinematically because there's no moment in there where it's not leading to something else

Michael Jamin:

You are listening to. What the hell is MichaeliJamon talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, A collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timal. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity. And Kirks Review says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, we'll find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book. And now back to our show.

Michael Jamin:

I wish it was a genre that was easier to explain to people, because when people say, what's your story? What's a book about? I have to try to explain, well, it's personal essays, but it's not an essay. Essay sounds like homework. It's not a memoir because I'm not important that it's my memoir. They're stories, but they're true. But what is that? It'd be just so much easier if I could say, well, it's YA fantasy or something. And people go, oh, okay. I know what young adult fantasy is, but it's not that. And so that's part of the uphill struggle that we have is explaining to people, getting people to understand enough just to take a chance and read it.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

But I think letting people catch up to what is what's important, what it is, is important because you're assuming that you have to spell it out for people. And I'll equate it again to Tuley Girl, the dresses I made were so hard to explain. And we were like, but it's not this. It's not fantasy, but you can wear it every day. And I had about 5,000 different taglines because I couldn't communicate it. And then finally you came up with the most amazing explanation of what it was after probably about eight years of doing it, which was, what

Michael Jamin:

Was it? You could say it. You could say it.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Well, we don't create dresses. We create your favorite childhood memory. Happy childhood. We're creating happy memories,

Michael Jamin:

Happy childhood memories.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Dress isn't just a,

Michael Jamin:

You got it wrong. We create happy childhood memories. That's what

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

It was. Right? Happy childhood. Well, I've had a year doing the audiobook, so 12 Girls in the Distance there.

Michael Jamin:

But that was another thing I remember. We saw a wonderful special by this guy named Derek DelGaudio called In and of itself, it's a wonderful, it was on Hulu. It was like a one-time special, basically like an hour long or something.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Well, it started as a

Michael Jamin:

Stage play. It started as a stage play. But when I tell people, when I try to describe what it's about, it's almost impossible to describe. And that's part of the problem. It's hard. It was such a uniquely wonderful experience, but it's impossible to tell people to describe it because it's its own thing.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah, I But you would say it's a one man show and a very unique experience,

Michael Jamin:

But there's magic and it's participation, but it's not magic. It's something else.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah, it's not a magic show.

Michael Jamin:

No, it's not a magic show. So it's really hard to, putting something in a box makes it easier to sell because people can understand what the box is. And I feel like that's part of the struggle I have with a paper orchestra, which is, and everyone who reads it, they love it, but they still don't understand what it is until they actually read it.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

But see, I think what you have on the cover is perfect. It's true stories about the smallest moments that you sometimes forget. What if the smallest moments were the ones that meant the most? So that says everything to me. That's all I need to know.

Michael Jamin:

That's what the book is. It's just about, hey, here's a small moment in life where I point out, which easily you could have forgotten about because it's so small. And it turns out, if you look back at that moment, everything changed because of it.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

And I love that you talk about the fact that it's really not about, you have to have these catastrophic or monumental things happen to you to be a changed person. Most of us don't have those huge, huge moments and so tender and intimate about it and relatable because you didn't come from an unusual background. You're pretty average with child of divorce. That's kind of average for our job, do.

Michael Jamin:

So those are the kind of stories that I tell, and I said before, I really don't think the stories are my stories. The details are mine, but I'm really trying to tell your story. But maybe you haven't figured out how to do that. But I do that because I'm a writer, so I know how to do that.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah, yeah. And I think we're just, it's nice that we're able to work well together in so many ways. And I think it really does stem from having that deep respect for each other's gifts, and we're able to really be very upfront with each other when we don't like something or when we question it. And I'm not married to my way doing it my way. I'm really looking at the bigger picture. I want a paper orchestra to be great. What's going to serve that? And I think we both have that in mind. And in terms of the tour and taking it on the road, I mean, I think you're more than ready to perform it. And I'm so excited for people to be able to experience it in that way as well.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, it's a different kind of, that's why, because the show, it is a theatrical show. And I do think there's something more intimate about, people say, can't you record it and play it? Yeah, I could, but

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Well, that's the audio book. But that audio book is going to be different.

Michael Jamin:

But in terms of even recording the stage show, you'll miss the intimacy of being right in front of me, being in the room and feeling the energy. You don't feel the energy. That's probably the thing with tv, it's great. It's a wonderful form, but you don't have the same energy as you do seeing live theater. And I wish there's a better way because many people don't want to see live theater, but it's different. It's a different experience. Good theater is great. Bad theater is terrible. That's why it runs the whole gamut. There's that expression. Nothing lasts forever except for bad theater, and that's because of the energy. So it goes both ways.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

And when we were working together on the audiobook the first time, we were trying to convey that performance that we do live. And after listening to it again and showing, having our daughter, Lola, listen to it, and her listening to literally the first three minutes, and I had already edited the whole thing. She was like, oh no, this isn't, I can't, you got to bring it down. And we were like, yeah, I had a feeling because when I was editing it, I was like, I don't know. I dunno about this. We just got to see.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, we had to do it again because we wanted the performance to be more intimate because you're listening to it on headphones or alone in the car, and it's a different, you're not listening it in a group of people, which is what the theater show is. So I'm literally in your head because you're wearing headphones. We had to bring everything down and make the performance much more intimate. It's a different, and we'll have to see how that affects my next performance with my live show.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

You're totally different. I know, totally. But see, when you say we had to bring it down, I don't like saying it like that because it makes it sound like it's sleepy and it's not.

Michael Jamin:

You had to bring it more

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Intimate. But it's like I really wanted, it's more like you contained the energy. They took this kind of energy that needs to project out, and we harnessed it and shoved it into a little two 12 by 12 area inches.

Michael Jamin:

But this is all acting stuff that I could not have done without you because you're an actor. I have couldn't have figured this out on my own, I don't think.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

No, I think it would've been really hard because your tendency when you would just start to read it before I would kind of steer you in the right direction or go, oh, you're going down the wrong path. Let me take you over here. That's pretty much all I needed to do in those moments. But your natural tendency was to just start reading it. And I'm like, where are you? I don't hear your personality. I'm not engaged in the story because you are not connected to it. So it really required the same amount of energy, Michael, that does for you to do this on stage, but you had to have the same amount of energy but contain it.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I mean, it's a whole different art to it, not an actor. So I had to learn how to do, how perform it to keep people engrossed in it. So I dunno, it's a fun performance. We want to travel because this is what we want to do next. We want to travel together and put it up and continue. So if anyone wants to come see it, you can go to michael jamin.com/upcoming and enter your city, and then we'll let you know. When we get to your city, we're figuring out how to, this is the next thing we're figuring out how to actually make it happen so we can do this effectively. Bring it to people's, bring the theater because it's a whole, again, people will say to me, whoa, can you sell it as a tv? Maybe it could be a TV show, maybe it could be a movie. And I'm always thinking about, why can't it just be a book? Why can't it be an audio book? Why can't it be a theatrical show as if TV or movies is somehow better than the experience that we're creating now? I don't think it is. And I work in television and film, I don't think it's better.

I think there's a betterness to what we have.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah, there's a pureness to it. There's something very simple and pure and the pacing of it. Everything is consumed so quickly right now, and it's almost too much. It's just too much. And what this does is it helps us to slow down. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

There's a power in the pause. There's so much energy that you can portray. This is something that took me a while to have confidence to do, but you can act. You're talking, you're saying you're doing whatever, the whole dog and pony show, but in leaving that pause and saying nothing, there's this anticipation and the audience is just waiting for it. And it's like a loaded gun.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah. I don't like that analogy, but what is it? Well, it's like you're on the edge of your seat and you've got us in your hands, and we're just captive. We're a captive audience. Time stands still. Time stands still, and we're just with you. And it really is allowing our being to kind of just be in that moment. It crystallizes the moments. And those are the moments in theater that why it's so impactful is because we're in this communal experience together where we're experiencing time at the same time, and we're also being together at the same time. It's very profound. And I remember working with you on the audio book and you were really hesitant to take us with you. I remember that. I kept saying, take us with you, Michael. It was like, but I'm going too slow or I'm going too fast. Or it was like, it didn't matter. The pacing. I would arbitrarily tell you, take us with you. And you would say, but I am. I go, yeah, but even if you're slow, or even if you're fast, the intention is to connect with us and make sure that we're with you. And it's hard on an audiobook because there's no audience, but with an audience, you can feel.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. But with the audience too, I'm in front of a bright light. I don't see them. I can sense them, but I can't see anybody. But

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

That's what's important is you sensing it. You can totally sense it. You can sense it because you can hear the Oh or that, or you can hear laugh, or you can hear the silence is different than a regular silence. It's like a pin drop.

Michael Jamin:

There's that moment at the end of the Marissa disclaimer where I confess to something and the audience is so disappointed. I remember the first time we performed it, they were just like, oh,

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

We all go. Oh

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Everyone was so disappointed in me. But that's so effective about it, is that they were along for the ride. And yeah, and that's another thing. You gave me a couple of things that helped me before each show. You printed out Ellie Zen's, what is it called?

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Letter to the actor.

Michael Jamin:

Letter to the actor. And I read it before where I talk about, where he talks about what my responsibility is to the audience as a performer, what my responsibility is. And so it doesn't feel, it's not like, because it can come off as being self-absorbed acting. It could come off as being narcissistic. Look at me. But you can't look at it that way. You have to look at it as this is what I have to do in order to give you what you want,

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

A gift. You have to give the audience a gift, and you have that responsibility to leave it all on the stage. And when you're an actor, it's no longer about you, Michael. It's about the words on the page. And you need to fulfill those words on the page. And as an actor, we're taught that the words are sacred. We don't change the words. We don't try and outthink the words. They are everything. And our job is to bring that to life and bring ourselves to the piece.

Michael Jamin:

And it's exhausting, though, at the end of the show. It is exhausting. Don't people appreciate how much energy I have to be in every moment so as not to check out or phone in, or just at the end of the night, I'm exhausted from an hour show. It's like, God,

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

And you're not expected. It's impossible in a way. And the greatest actors will say this too, that it is a job. So what do you do if you're not feeling it? And in that moment, you're thinking about what you're going to have for dinner, or, oh my God, I can't wait to just go home and lie down because it requires so much energy. And what you do is you go with that truth inside. I don't even want to be here right now. You use the truth of what you're feeling in that moment, and that brings you back into the piece. You have to connect to something real. Whereas if you're denying it and you're going, oh my God, I suck right now. I need to force myself to have this energy, then you're going to overcompensate and you're going to force it. And it's not going to be truthful. But if you really go into the moment of like, ah, damn, I'm just, I got nothing. I feel nothing. How does that make you feel? Feels pretty shitty. All right. I'm just going to say the next line from this place, because this is where I'm at. And then it takes off. Then you're off again. I mean,

Michael Jamin:

But what if the line, you're not supposed to feel shitty on

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

It. The audience buys it because the audience knows truth. As long as you're truthful, we're going to take however you read it and go, oh, that must be what that means. Oh, the character must feel this way. They're not going, oh, Michael.

Michael Jamin:

But the character is not supposed to feel the character's excited to be at a party,

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

But it could look like this. Oh my God, I am so excited to be here. It could look really intense and focused when I'm feeling like God damnit, I'm not feeling anything. Instead of the idea of, oh my God, and I'm so happy to be here. Why does it have to come out that way? Even if I came out and was like, I'm really excited to be here. What does that come out? It could come across. I'm a little nervous or I'm excited. I'm afraid to show

Michael Jamin:

It. But it feels truthful. You're saying?

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yes, as long as it's rooted in some kind of truth, the audience will interpret it however it needs to go with the

Michael Jamin:

Story. This is some high level directing shit for people,

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Don't you think? Yeah. I mean, I appreciate that. I think a lot of it to me is very, how I was trained was always going with what is. And you hear a noise, somebody, it's not about everybody being quiet all the time and oh

Michael Jamin:

My God. So what happens if you hear a noise backstage during your show,

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

You incorporate it. Even if you don't want to draw attention to it, you as the actor, because the audience is all going to hear it. So if you hear that, I have to just kind of go, all right, I don't have to comment on it. I just have to take that moment and allow it to be there. Because again, if you deny it,

Michael Jamin:

But doesn't that break the fourth wall? If you hear a banging backstage and then you turn your head and you acknowledge it, it's backstage.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

But it could be if you're the character and you hear something backstage, that's the world you're in. It could be in the next room.

Michael Jamin:

You have to, if you don't acknowledge it, if you don't acknowledge, it's like, well, why aren't they acknowledging?

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

And then there's a giant elephant in the room and stuff like props falling over. Oh my God. There'd be the worst thing an actor could do. One of the worst things is like their hat falls off and it's not supposed to fall off. And the whole time it's sitting in the middle of the stage, the audience is worried about the hat. Now we're going to be thinking about the hat. So the worst thing an actor can do is to deny that the hat fell off. You know what I mean? Use it. Use all of it. All it is for the moment to fuel you. And sometimes the best. When I was on friends, David Schwimmer and I were rehearsing our scene. You did a bad thing. Very bad. Very, very bad. Yes, I know that scene. And we were rehearsing it and we screwed up, but we didn't sit there and go, oh, wait a minute.

We screwed up the line. Let's take it back. No, you just go with it. And Marta and David, the show creators were standing right off to the side, and they're like, wait a minute, guys, what happened there? It was like, yeah, we screwed up the lines. Well, that's going in. We're going to do it that way now. And so the best, the happy accidents are when you don't plan it and you're going with it. And Michael, you have some amazing moments in the audio book where you can't speak. You're so full of emotion that you can't speak. And I've listened to it a number of times in my car, and my heart goes into my throat because I can't see you. And a lot of times I don't remember. It always catches me by surprise that that moment is happening. And I think, oh my God, did the audio track drop out? Because there's such a stillness. And then all of a sudden you come back in and your next line is just, you can barely even talk. And that resonates through the frigging speaker. We're not even seeing you. That's how powerful our emotion is if we just allow it to take us and to trust it. And it's transformative. It

Michael Jamin:

Really is a time machine for me, because when I'm retelling those stories, it's like I'm living it again. Again. And people, the funny thing is, people after that show, when I do this, some of those stories, people are worried about me.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah, yeah. Because that's what IA Kaza talks about, is you just leave it all on the stage. Yeah. Because why else are you there? Why are you there? If you're not going to go there, then why are you there?

Michael Jamin:

That's why I feel like one of the things that I like about personal essays, which is so hard to explain to people, but when they read it, they get it. Is that a novel? The characters are made up. They're fictitious. And the worst thing that can happen to your charact, they'll die. But again, they're just made up, so everything's fine. Your favorite made up character just had something horrible. Again, they're just made up. But with these personal essays, I feel the stakes are higher. I feel like it's a unique art form because the stakes, it's a real person telling real stories about themselves. The stakes are higher because they're not made up.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

And that's the beauty of you performing your own work too, is that you can really shine in that way. You don't have to worry about becoming a character, putting something on, but I think it is hard for you because you have to psyche yourself up to really go there. It's like your energy has to be up. You have to be willing to investigate that. And if you're not feeling it, you got to go with the truth that you're not feeling it it. Then see where that leads you. It's scary.

Michael Jamin:

It's also, the funny thing is I don't really have any desire to do anybody else's to act in someone else's show. I don't have a desire to become an actor. It's just really more like I have a desire to pursue this art.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

And why do you feel the pinch to want to perform it? And I've asked you this in the end of the audio book too, but it's not so much. What is it in you that needs to be seen and heard, or

Michael Jamin:

I'm not entirely clear on it. I just want to, I suppose it's because, and I'm very happy. I've had a long and successful career as a TV writer, but part of me also feels like there's just something missing from what I write.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it's similar to when I was a dancer. I was like, I need more expression than this. I have to act now because dancing just is part of the expression, but it's not allowing me to fully express everything. So maybe performing is part of that for you. It's not enough to just have people read it or listen to it. You want to experience it with them. You need that connection, that expression.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I guess. And I also, I kind of want to just do something special. That's all. Because I wonder sometimes before when I go on, I go, why am I doing this? I just want to create something special that people will like. And I think people get it from the book and the audio book, so it's not necessary. I don't think it's necessary for me to perform, but maybe it's a plus. I don't know.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah. I think more will be revealed as they say. You'll see why. And that's another thing about following those creative impulses. I know because I have this hindsight with Twirly Girl, after doing it for 15 years, I can honestly look back and say that I would've never expected to have experienced what I experienced in the way that all the gifts that it brought me, there's no way I could have predicted that. And I think it's the same thing here. You just don't know where it's going to lead you, but you feel the need to do it. And I think that's enough. I think that's all you need, honestly. It takes on a life of its own too.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. We'll see where it goes, but we'll just put energy into it and see where it goes.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yes. Onto the next project. But this project now,

Michael Jamin:

Well, maybe that, is that where we conclude this podcast? Is there anything else to cover?

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

I don't know. I don't know anything else for you.

Michael Jamin:

I don't know. I'm very grateful for all your help doing this. I couldn't do any of this without you. And for everyone listening, it really helps if you have someone helping you with whatever your project is, it does help a lot. And so you have to find the right person, whoever that is.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Well, I'm so grateful for you and everything that you've brought me, and this is just a joy and everything I want it to be. It is. And I'm so happy to be working with you.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, you're sweet. Alright, everyone, there you go. A paper orchestra signed copies are available@michaeljamin.com. You can also find the link to the paperback, the ebook, the audiobook, the audiobooks on Audible, Spotify, and Apple. It's called The Paper Orchestra, produced and directed by Cynthia.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah, but here's the thing, guys. If you want to see him in person, we would love to meet you. So keep in touch with us.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, sign up at michael jamin.com/upcoming. Okay, everyone, thank you again. Thank you, Cynthia.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Thank you, Michael. I love you.

Michael Jamin:

I love you.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. I did it again, another fantastic episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertiser supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asks the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most? Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I love the Journey. And Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More. Great stuff coming next week.

On this week's episode, I have TikTok Star Mackenzie Barmen. We talk about what she has already accomplished in her very short time in LA, as well as some of the projects she has planned for the future. There is so much more so make sure you tune in.

Mackenzie Barmen on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mackenziebarmen/

Mackenzie Barmen on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@mackenziebarmen?lang=en

Mackenzie Barmen on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAP_cFPc2fqGTe50YhOlkDg/videos

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletter

Mackenzie Barman:

There's a part of me that worries on some level all the time, but then there's a stronger part of me. I think that's pretty delusional in a good way, that I'm like, no, I am certain that I'm supposed to do this, and I just can't falter. I just, I'm doing,

Michael Jamin:

You're listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity. I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts.

Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Well, I'll tell you what I've been talking about. If you've been listening to any number of my podcasts or by social media, I've been saying the same thing a lot. I've been saying, if you are an aspiring whatever, if you're an actor or a writer or performer, put your work out there. Just start doing it, and the more you do it, the better you get. And then my next guest is someone who did just that and is doing that, and I discovered her maybe a year or two ago, and we're going to talk, and she's big. We're going to talk to her about her journey here. Mackenzie Barman, thank you so much for coming here. Lemme tell you when I first found you, and then you'll Yes, please. Then we'll tell you were doing a bit, it was a piece on you were reciting nursery rhymes, and you playing two characters.

You generally will talk about this, but you generally do two characters have, and you're both, and usually it's kind of a sweet and naive version of you. And then there's kind of a meaner more, not sinister, but cynical. And I guess she puts you in your place. She's a little, and she wants up making you cry a lot. And so the sweet one was talking about nursery rhyme, and the other one was telling you, you're so naive, you have no idea what these nursery rhymes are about. And so that blew up and that's how I found you, and it was really funny. I love

Mackenzie Barman:

It. Thank you.

Michael Jamin:

Well, tell me, what is this? So you're huge on TikTok, you have almost 3 million followers, which is

Mackenzie Barman:

Almost

Michael Jamin:

Huge. I've written for shows that haven't been seen by anywhere near 3 million people. So you have a giant following, but tell me, so why did you start doing this?

Mackenzie Barman:

Well, I was an actor in the pandemic, and I didn't really know what to do with myself. And so everyone was on TikTok for fun. That was when TikTok was really blowing up, and I kind of just decided to start making videos and then not taking it seriously at all. But then I was like, well, it gives me a kind of a platform. And no one was really using it like that yet. But I started to see some sketches pop up and I was like, huh, or viral videos, whatever. And then I ended up just at random seeing somebody write about a nursery rhyme in a Facebook status. And I was still using Facebook, which I don't, and I was like, oh. And I learned in that moment what that nursery rhyme meant. So I just on a whim made that first

Michael Jamin:

Video. So that was one of your first videos?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, it was one. I did a whole series of those ones. So I did it and I just kind of improvised it. And the next morning I woke up and it had gone kind of viral, and so I made another one, and then I made another one and they kind of just blew up. And so, yeah, it was kind of random.

Michael Jamin:

But your intention, it was boredom or was it, you said you wanted to have a platform. What was your goal?

Mackenzie Barman:

Well, it was a little bit out of boredom, but it was more so like, well, let me put myself out there. And I used to go to a lot of casting director workshops and when I lived in New York City, and they would always say the same thing when YouTube was really big, make your own web series, put yourself out there, all that stuff. And so that's always been in the back of my mind, and I've always kind of considered myself a multihyphenate. I also shoot and direct and all that stuff, so I was like, I need to do that. So that's why I've always kind of focused on acting, being the primary thing in my videos. Let's get to that.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I was going to say, it's really smart. You show a range. I mean, you have, like I said, the sweet side, and then the other side is, and sometimes you play well, you're always playing characters, but to me it's smart. You're showing your range as an actor.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

What do your reps have to say about all this?

Mackenzie Barman:

They love it. I actually got my managers through TikTok, they found me and oh my

Michael Jamin:

God, really?

Mackenzie Barman:

I had already had voiceover representation through my agency, but I didn't have a manager or anything. And I met my manager, Rachel. I loved her right away. And they love it, and they love the content and that it's acting first and the series and all that.

Michael Jamin:

So they give you any feedback or No, they just like, we love it.

Mackenzie Barman:

No, not really. They just let me roll with it. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting. And then what other opportunities have come from all this?

Mackenzie Barman:

Gosh, well, one of the coolest things is the relationships that I've built with other creators, especially actor creators. And you just kind of know when you vibe with some people or when I watch certain people, I'm like, I know our brains work the same way. So I seek those people out to become, I love getting to know the people that I admire. It's cool to meet people talent first, and then it's doing a play with somebody. I

Michael Jamin:

Know you collaborate with people sometimes. I've seen some of those videos you've done.

Mackenzie Barman:

I've done a couple. I'm going to be doing more now that I'm in LA and with a lot more people. But that's been a really cool thing that's come from this. Did

Michael Jamin:

You start this in New York your first three years? Yeah. Oh, really?

Mackenzie Barman:

Okay. Yeah, I just moved to LA a few weeks ago. I was in New York

Michael Jamin:

City. Oh, when you said you changed your apartments, I assumed you were moved, okay. From in la, but you're Oh, you're, well, welcome to la. Okay. Thank you. Wow, this is a big adjustment for you. So what prompted you to move to LA then?

Mackenzie Barman:

Well, my managers are out here, and since TikTok, I've really, it's funny. I was always kind of like, I wanted to really be such a chameleon and not hone in on any one thing. I didn't want to just do comedy. I didn't want to just do drama. But now with TikTok, it's really pushed me more into comedy, and I've found that I really do love it. So out here, there's so many comedy opportunities, and I'm going to be doing part of a live show on December 10th, and just being, I just needed to be out here.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. So how did you get, you've only been here for three minutes, so how did you get this live show already?

Mackenzie Barman:

Through a friend of mine, actually, through social media. Someone you, oh

Michael Jamin:

My God, so smart. I'm always yelling at people. They're like, do I have to be in la? I'm like, well, this is where everyone is. I mean, why would you know? What were you doing? Were you doing a lot of theater in New York?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, so I did a lot of regional theater. I did an off-Broadway musical, and then when the pandemic happened, I was really trying to shift into more TV and film work. I really wanted to be on tv. I still do. That's really my big focus is to be on tv, be in movies. But I was kind of transitioning and doing the casting director workshops and doing all those things, and then the pandemic hit. But yeah, mostly theater. I'm a theater girl

Michael Jamin:

Now. Did you study, where have you studied? Did you study in college? Where did, yeah,

Mackenzie Barman:

I went to a SUNY school and I loved it. I went to SUNY Potsdam in upstate New York, and I studied theater and theater education. I didn't really start doing plays until high school and in high school. So

Michael Jamin:

You're from New York?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, I'm from New York. From

Michael Jamin:

New York, okay.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, born and raised, upstate New York, near Albany. And then, yeah, I moved down to the city to be an actor and do all that. Right.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. You've only been here three weeks and so much has already happened for you already.

Mackenzie Barman:

What do you think? Yeah, I'm trying.

Michael Jamin:

What do you think It's a culture shock. What do you think?

Mackenzie Barman:

Right now, I'm in my lust for life extrovert phase where I'm like, because a homebody pretty much, I'm an extroverted homebody, so I like to be home a lot. But right now I'm just trying to be out a lot, meet people that I've, and just kind of be really social,

Michael Jamin:

Been amazing. How did you get into play? Okay, you moved here. Did you stay with a friend when you found your, how did, because I'm telling people come out. How did you do it? How did

Mackenzie Barman:

It was a pain? So I visited last August, and I stayed with one of my managers. Actually, I crashed at her place. I went a couple different places, but she's the best. I love her. And they're in the West Hollywood area, so it's really the only place I know. So that's where I am now. I'm in West Hollywood. And then I looked at a couple apartments when I was here, but I really didn't know where I was. I kind of did, but I don't really know. And then, so I just, Zillow and Trulia, and I ended up finding this apartment on Trulia, and I had a couple of friends come look at it and FaceTime me,

Michael Jamin:

And it was good enough.

Mackenzie Barman:

I was like,

Michael Jamin:

And then Did you drive here? You

Mackenzie Barman:

Flew here? I drove,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. That's how you do it. Did your car. Wow. Now tell me, when you start posting, these are thought out, these videos you make, how much time do you spend a day making, and how many times do you post a day?

Mackenzie Barman:

It's really funny. I usually post once a day at most. I really should try to post once a day at least. It's usually every two or three days. Oh, really? Yeah. But I've been kind of busy, but it was once a day when I was doing the nursery rhymes, but I kind of got a little burned out, I think.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, you do get burned out. It's

Mackenzie Barman:

A lot. It's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah. But I don't write anything beforehand. I improvise everything, but I kind of write it in my head as I go, and I have a loose idea going into it of if it was a nursery rhyme or something, I would have to research and have the facts ready. I would do that research beforehand and then kind of reference it as I improvised it. But for the character stuff, it's all kind of, they kind of just take over. I take a backseat,

Michael Jamin:

But you must edit some stuff out, or no, is everything what you say goes in?

Mackenzie Barman:

Sometimes if I say something and then I'm like, even if it's improvised, I'm like, huh, you know what? I think I want to tweak that and put the intonation somewhere else, or put a micro look or an eyebrow raise kind of somewhere else. I'll redo it. But most of the time it's my first take, honestly.

Michael Jamin:

So, okay. I was going to ask you where you're editing it because you're like this, you're holding it, and you do your one line, and then you turn around and do the other line, and then

Mackenzie Barman:

I swap. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

So you're not even editing it?

Mackenzie Barman:

No, because I shoot in the app, unless it's Snapchat filters, which a couple of my characters are Snapchat filters, in which case I'll film them. It used to be that if I was doing the Snapchat filters, I would just shoot one character as a monologue and then post that. But then with my Danny and Bab series, this new, these characters, I have

Michael Jamin:

The ugly babies that you post.

Mackenzie Barman:

They're adults. Okay. I just, I'll pull up his filter, shoot his line, save the video, switch the filter, do her response.

Michael Jamin:

I'm surprised you can't even remember what you just said. You know what I'm saying? With the last character just said,

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, I don't know. It's just kind of alive in that moment. But

Michael Jamin:

Are you thinking in advance, okay, this is going to do well, or this is just what I want to do today? Do you care?

Mackenzie Barman:

I do care only because I kind of have to care. I feel like it influences so much. Now your numbers and all that stuff, but I also care because I want people to like it. I want people to genuinely have a response to it that's a little deeper maybe than normal. On TikTok scrolling, which I do get a lot. I'll get people being like, wait, this is actually, so people

Michael Jamin:

Are, well, your fans really loved you. I've read some of these comments, and what surprises me is that you interact with pretty much everyone.

Mackenzie Barman:

I try. I try and they're smart. Okay.

Michael Jamin:

Why do you try?

Mackenzie Barman:

Because it, it's weird. It's like this weird, I don't really ever go to anyone's profile or whatever, but I can almost hear the comment in my head, and it almost in that brief moment feels like a conversation's actively happening. So I'm bantering with this person, or I don't know. It's just, it's fun to be engaging. And I've had people respond when I do engage and they're like, oh my God, I can't believe you applied. And that to me is just so lovely.

Michael Jamin:

It is lovely, but it's so much work on your part.

Mackenzie Barman:

I know, but I sit and scroll a lot. So it's like part of the package. It's like part of producing the video almost is then the engagement after. And I don't do it as much as I used to, but I do. It depends on what mood I'm in.

Michael Jamin:

I wonder though. I wonder what you're supposed to do when I started, are you supposed to, I'm not even sure when I get, my page is very different from yours. They have questions for me. They want, as opposed to you. I think they're like your fans, they just want to, and so they're

Mackenzie Barman:

Just making a commentary on it

Michael Jamin:

Or something. Well, they really like your show. They like what? You're the fans. And so I just don't know what the rules are. I don't know if you're supposed to

Mackenzie Barman:

Interact yourself. I dunno. And it depends. If somebody does leave a nasty comment or say something mean, which is oddly really rare, don't come from me guys. Don't start. But it's rare. They're pretty good, my, because some people get it bad for some reason, and I don't really get that.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, go on. What do you do?

Mackenzie Barman:

Wait, I've lost my train of thought. What

Michael Jamin:

Was it? You said? Some people come after you and they're mean,

Mackenzie Barman:

And either I'll completely ignore them or I'll delete it. If it's a needle in a haystack and it's just something mean, I'll delete it. But sometimes I'll respond with sarcasm or I'll make a sarcastic response video, and then it makes it funny. So then it's like, oh, this is actually a joyful experience. But most of the time I'll just ignore them if I do get them.

Michael Jamin:

And you don't block 'em, you just ignore them?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. I don't really block anybody unless they're trying to impersonate me, but

Michael Jamin:

Even, yeah. Wow. You don't even block the haters.

Mackenzie Barman:

Not usually. There's been maybe two or three.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, wow. I get more than you do I get more than haters than you?

Mackenzie Barman:

They don't really come for me. It's weird. I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. But now you're putting yourself out there. It's pretty vulnerable. I mean, it may hit, it may not. It may be funny. It may not be. I mean, was that hard at the beginning for you to do that?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, I think the nursery rhyme videos did so well. Those were just one of those weird viral things where every video was getting a million plus and it was every day. It was just crazy. And now it ebbs and flows so much with TikTok. And now I have more normal numbers, I think. But I definitely do get a little anxious about that. Sometimes I'm like, oh gosh, I thought this video would do better. Or I'll post something out of my norm and then I wake up and it's done really well, and I'm like, oh, and then I'll try to do that again, and then it doesn't do as well. So it's like a flash in the pan thing.

Michael Jamin:

Do you share it as well on Instagram? I mean, what do you

Mackenzie Barman:

I do, yeah. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

Immediately. Same content. You just put it up there.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Do you put it anywhere else?

Mackenzie Barman:

Not really. I've put a couple on YouTube. I really need to start utilizing the YouTube shorts because I think where it's at and Snapchat, I need to start utilizing more. I think they're up and coming. They're coming back. You think

Michael Jamin:

So?

Mackenzie Barman:

They're coming back? I think so.

Michael Jamin:

How many hours a day or minutes a day do you spend on this?

Mackenzie Barman:

I would say on average, I probably spend an hour on a video.

Michael Jamin:

Really? Okay. It's not nothing. It's not nothing.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. It's not nothing. But it's not like I know some people put in and you can tell some of these videos are gorgeous and the editing is, but since it's just me, it's also a lot harder for me to film outside of my hand, setting up the tripod moving and just a lot more to do. So it's just easier for me to

Michael Jamin:

Do. Do you have a list of ideas that you keep? And are you running out of ideas?

Mackenzie Barman:

I always feel like I'm running out of ideas. I always think if a video, especially if a video does really well, I'm like, I'm never going to do this well ever again. But I don't usually keep a list of ideas. Sometimes I'll jot down, I have a bunch of notes, like separate note app ideas. But a lot of the times it's just, if I have the thought, I'll just record it. That's why a lot of the times I look kind of like shit in my videos a little bit, because I film them. Usually my ideas come right in the morning, and so I'll just wake up and film an idea, and then it's, before I've even brushed my teeth or anything, I'm just gross. But it's when, and I just do it.

Michael Jamin:

And you put it up. It's so interesting. I don't know. Is there a fear? Is there any fear associated? It seems like you don't have any fear at all about this.

Mackenzie Barman:

I feel like I do. I feel there's a constant anxiety of one. I have imposter syndrome pretty intensely.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. And who do you think you are? Do you, you're not, is that

Mackenzie Barman:

I don't come from an industry family or any kind of connections like that. So I'm always like, who am I?

Michael Jamin:

But they have imposter syndrome too, because their mother and father was, they're famous. So I think they have bigger imposter syndrome than you do. You're

Mackenzie Barman:

Self made. I'm learning that. I'm learning everyone deals. There was a great Viola Davis interview where she talked about imposter syndrome, and it was great to hear that.

Michael Jamin:

What did she say?

Mackenzie Barman:

Just that it never goes away and that she was doing, oh gosh, what was the movie she did with Denzel Washington?

Michael Jamin:

Oh, was it Fences?

Mackenzie Barman:

Fences? Yeah. I think it was about fences. And she was talking about she was playing that part and was like, who am I to do this? It may have been that, but she was just talking about that, and I was like, that's really refreshing, because I think I look through rose colored glasses at these celebs sometimes, and I'm like, oh my God. They're so confident. But we're always seeing the best take, and we're always getting, especially as you get more involved in the industry, you start to see that it's all kind of smoke and mirrors. You just have to fake it.

Michael Jamin:

I read an article yesterday about Brian May from Queen. He said he still has some imposter syndrome, and he's Sir Brian May, and he's like, why isn't they call me, sir?

Mackenzie Barman:

It's wild. Yeah, it's wild. But that there is fear there. There is that fear of the imposter syndrome of like, oh my gosh, who am I? And it's silly. It's silly. And I know that, but

Michael Jamin:

Are you monetizing TikTok or no? Yeah. You are? Yeah. In the creator fund?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. So they have the creator beta program or program beta, whatever it's called. Great. Is

Michael Jamin:

That effective use?

Mackenzie Barman:

I dunno, maybe, but I don't dunno. Interesting. It's nice because you can only monetize on content over a minute, and most of my content is over a minute, so it really was a good thing for me. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

You'd have to change anything.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

But you have to have a personal account, not a business account. Right? Isn't

Mackenzie Barman:

That what you maybe? Yeah. I don't know. I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

Now, in your reps, as I was checking out some of your videos, you are, it's funny that they said this, but they like that you're in character. They like that you're acting. And I was curious, why don't you, or have you thought of, this is me today. I'm not going to act today. This is me. This is, I'm want to table my life. You're not doing that though.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, no. I've done a couple of videos like that. I've probably done 10 or 12, maybe 20. I don't even know how many I have on my page, but where it's me doing something. But I feel like sometimes it feels like I'm always in a bit, and I don't know if that's being an actor or if it's my own neuroses, but if I am in front of a camera, it's kind of hard for me to be just me, unless I'm doing a podcast and talking to somebody. But if it's me looking at myself on video, I'm always going to be like, ha.

Michael Jamin:

It's

Mackenzie Barman:

Difficult for me sometimes. But I do think about that because there is a part of me that really wants to be more like, wait, okay, so here I am as a person. Get ready with me. As I tell you this story, I thought about doing more of those just because it is fun to do that.

Michael Jamin:

Right? But the

Mackenzie Barman:

Math is always on. I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

That's more of a you thing. It's so interesting. I wonder, I was going to ask if you feel almost trapped in this persona that you are now?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. Yes and no. No, probably not. I don't think so. I think I play such a variety of characters on my TikTok.

Michael Jamin:

Except for yourself. You play characters except

Mackenzie Barman:

For you. It's never really me. Definitely the closest one to me. And I think I'm pretty split right down the middle between the dark me and the innocent me in the nursery rhyme videos. And that dynamic is, in a lot of the videos, there's always me and me and whoever else, Chelsea or whoever. But I'm definitely split right in the middle. But if I had to lean, I would definitely lean toward the happy, bubbly me. That's probably the closest to me in any of my videos.

Michael Jamin:

But not that you should, I'm just pointing out you're not sharing anything really personal or intimate about yourself or

Mackenzie Barman:

No, no. In a weird way, I think that it's like, I don't know. There's a part of me that likes, there admires those celebs that you really don't know too much about Florence Pugh or Jennifer Lawrence. They give you glimpses into their life, their personal life. But there always is this level of mystique to them. And not that I'm trying to be mysterious, but I do think that it in the long run might serve me better as an actor to be more private than to be so human. I don't know. Well,

Michael Jamin:

It's interesting because it's also like you must know Elise Meyers, because I mean, she's big, but you're up there. I mean, you're not far behind her, and she's more, and it seems like she's doing what she wants to do, but she's more actor and she's more, I guess, personality.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. Yeah. I love Elise, and I don't know her, but I love her because she's so just herself. She might have self-doubt, whatever. I have no idea. Imposter syndrome and stuff, but she appears and she does speak on things, her iss, and she's just so honest about it. And I do love that. I don't know. I just can't do it.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Well, you're being authentic or I

Mackenzie Barman:

Can, but yeah, I don't know. It's just tricky. There is that kind of want to keep this, but who is Mackenzie thing

Michael Jamin:

And what surprising opportunities have come from this or partnerships or relationships or whatever.

Mackenzie Barman:

I'm trying to think. Besides auditions and stuff.

Michael Jamin:

So you've gotten direct auditions from this? I

Mackenzie Barman:

Have.

Michael Jamin:

How did that work?

Mackenzie Barman:

Well, a lot of the times I'll go through my reps and then my reps will reach out to me, say, oh, you've been actually personally requested for this.

Michael Jamin:

That's a big deal.

Mackenzie Barman:

It really is. And I've gotten some callback. I've gotten, most of the time, if I audition for projects like that, I'll get a call back and then go whatever, and then it doesn't happen or whatever for whatever reason. But it's happened, yeah, a few times. But a lot of the time too, I don't know. I really don't know how much, because I get auditions through my agents, a normal actor would. So I don't really know on the back end of it how much they're like, oh, here's her video. I don't really know.

Michael Jamin:

But do your reps try to sell you like, Hey, she's got 3 million followers on, because that would be good to help sell the show when you book it or whatever.

Mackenzie Barman:

Oh, I think so. Yeah. I think that's definitely a leverage point. Working on treatments and stuff. There is work that I want to put out and produce and whatever, and I do think that helps and is a big aspect of

Michael Jamin:

It. So is that on your resume, like your follower account on your acting resume or no?

Mackenzie Barman:

I don't dunno. Actually. It might

Michael Jamin:

Be it. Should it be right? Shouldn't it be?

Mackenzie Barman:

I think in today's world, yeah, I think it probably should. It probably is. And it probably needs to be updated, actually, now that I'm thinking about it. But yeah, I think it is on there.

Michael Jamin:

One thing you don't do, I don't think you do, is sell merch.

Mackenzie Barman:

No, I did one drop and I had a bad experience.

Michael Jamin:

What happened

Mackenzie Barman:

With doing it? I think my problem is I am not a salesy person. And when I was trying to sell or advertise my merch, those videos did not do well and not a of lot of eyes saw them because the people who would typically see my content, it was so out of the realm of what their algorithm would be that it didn't pop up for 'em and it just didn't do well. And I was like, you know what? And I didn't like working with, so if I think if I did, I would just do it myself.

Michael Jamin:

Wait, weren't you doing print on demand? How is it?

Mackenzie Barman:

I had worked with a merch company. I don't even remember the name of the company actually, but I had worked with a merch company and it was just a quick drop. I think typically if it's a first time, they'll do a limited drop to see how it does and then move

Michael Jamin:

On. You work with the merch company. Why don't you just go to some place that print on demand? I have five T-shirts if you want to make 'em one at a time.

Mackenzie Barman:

Well, it was kind of near when I was kind first starting out, and it's one of those things where you kind learn as you go approached. They had reached out and they said, Hey, we think McKenzie would be great. And they'd worked with other people. I think that's how it went down, or no, no, that's not true. I think it was my idea to make merch. And then I had, they were recommended because they had worked with some other great people and were really successful. So I think it was just my particular launch didn't do.

Michael Jamin:

Didn't do well.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Hey, it's Michael. If you like my content and I know you do listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michae jamin.com. And now back to what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about.

What about brand deals? Are you working with people with companies? Yeah.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. I've done some brand deals, which are so fun. I want to do more of them because they're just fun. It kind of gives me a, because a lot of the times there's no guiding light in my videos. It's just what's ever in my head. So when I have a brand to work with, it's fun. I can work around that.

Michael Jamin:

Did you hook up onto the backend of TikTok, or, I don't even know they hook you up, or no.

Mackenzie Barman:

Well, I think a little bit. I'm so bad. I don't really know all the business backend things of TikTok. I've seen some ads and stuff you can apply to be a part of this ad or something, but the pay is really low sometimes, or it's like a share a revenue share system, and I just don't want to be bothered with that. So these ones, they'll come through my management or my agents and be like, really? Hey, they want to work with me. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

But do you have special agents, social media agents, or No, just your acting agents?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. At my agency, they have a department for everything. So I'm working with an agent there. Yeah. Oh,

Michael Jamin:

Wow. So interesting.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, I'm still learning too. It really is a business. And you'd kind of go to theater school and you're like, okay, yeah, sure, it's a business, but then you're in the world and you're like, oh, this is a business.

Michael Jamin:

Alright, so is this your primary income or no?

Mackenzie Barman:

No, kind of. So I do a lot of things. So I also run a video production company. You do? It's very small, but it's called Real You, and it's a demo reel production company for actors. So basically, yes, I work with actors. I was an actor who had a MISHMOSHED demo reel of all these different student films, or you just wouldn't get the footage. So it was always a hassle if you didn't have stuff to put a reel together. And so I basically sit with actors, figure out their branding, their type, whatever, and then write them scenes and then film them. But professionally, I have a real camera and all that good stuff.

Michael Jamin:

And how do they find you? These people

Mackenzie Barman:

Through my website or there's a business website and stuff. And it's funny because all of the SEO is for New York, and so I need to figure out a way to make everyone know that we're in LA now. So I do that and I do voiceover, so I do commercial and animation. Well, nothing animation yet. I audition a lot, but I'm hoping to book something soon. But a lot of commercial work and radio stuff, so I just have a lot of,

Michael Jamin:

But it seems very smart what you're doing. You're also working with, you're meeting actors, you're working with actors, you're making contacts, and you're getting paid for it out here. It's

Mackenzie Barman:

Making me a better writer, a better director, a better actor, because I also edit the scenes. Each scene is about a couple minutes long, and so I know when I'm directing them and shooting it, oh, this was helpful in the editing process, or, oh, this was actually difficult.

Michael Jamin:

So it's interesting though that you write stuff for them, but you don't write for yourself. You just impro yourself.

Mackenzie Barman:

I do write some stuff. My tiktoks, I don't write for some reason. I really should maybe try to sit and write something. I think I just write backwards when I'm doing that. But when I'm writing treatments, we're working on TV stuff, then I'll sit and write if it's because a lot of the stuff that I write is for me, but it's also for other people.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Yeah. It's so interesting. Like I said, I thought what you're doing was so smart because you're really showcasing your writing, you're showcasing your acting, and you're, your range, your acting range by playing all these different characters. It just seems like that's exactly what you should be doing. Yeah.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. I'm really trying to build a brand there. And it's nice because it kind of acts like a resume or a reel. I'm like, just go watch my tiktoks and you can see, you can see what I'm all about.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. And what about the partnerships, the other actors that you're working with? Tell me a little bit about what that had led to

Mackenzie Barman:

The actors that I shoot for

Michael Jamin:

Or that you shoot with or that you collaborate with.

Mackenzie Barman:

Oh, man. Well, I've only collaborated with a couple people. My friend's Taylor and James, who are content creators, and they're both actors. They're amazing. They live in la. I did a video with them, and I actually shot this morning with Laura Clary. Do you know Laura Clary? She's great. She's so funny. She's like an internet queen. And so when I'm shooting with them, I love working with other people, a theater person. So it's in my soul to have tangible people with me. But most of the time I'm alone. So when I'm working with another actor, it's just the best, especially when I'm just bantering freely with them or, because Laura, for instance, she wrote a script for us, and when I clagged with Taylor and James, we kind of improvised it, had an idea of what it was going to be. It was like a curb situation. We had the bones, but Laura wrote it, and then we kind of improvised on the fly. It was great. I loved it.

Michael Jamin:

And they're pretty much want what you want. They want to get more traditional acting on TV and film.

Mackenzie Barman:

I think so, yeah. Well, I know that some of them do. Laura's already established and stuff, but my client actors, they're all either working actors who want to update their reel or want to add a very specific, they need a detective scene, or they need this specific type of scene. They'll come to me. Some of them I've become really good friends with just because I'm like, oh, I love you.

Michael Jamin:

I mean, you've only been in LA three weeks. Are you going to get involved in the theater scene or the improv scene, or what are you going to do?

Mackenzie Barman:

So I really want to get into the comedy scene of the character shows and a little bit of standup. I'm going to kind of play on the 10th. I'm going to have a five minute set and this show. So I think I'm just going to totally improvise it and just see what happens. This is my first show. So who caress

Michael Jamin:

And where is that going to be?

Mackenzie Barman:

That is going to be, oh, I don't know where it's going to be. Actually, I don't,

Michael Jamin:

By the time this airs, it'll be too late. But I'm just curious as to,

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, I don't know. It's called One Star Review. It's like a comedy showcase.

Michael Jamin:

It's amazing how quickly you jumped into it, honestly, you jumped into it. I don't,

Mackenzie Barman:

I always feel like I'm not doing enough. I always feel like I need to be doing, but I probably am fine.

Michael Jamin:

It's only been three weeks. Yeah, I, but it seems like, I don't know. I admire you because you're not worried about figuring out. You're just doing it. It'll fall into place. And I think a lot of people are afraid to try and to, yeah,

Mackenzie Barman:

I think that I'm definitely always a little bit afraid. There's always a part of me that is like, oh my gosh, what if I run out of money? What if I don't? I don't really have anyone really to fall back on in that way, any connection. I just don't have, there's no alternative for me.

Michael Jamin:

But you didn't in New York either. I mean your family, but there are upstate New York,

Mackenzie Barman:

And it's just really tricky. And I think that there's a part of me that worries on some level all the time, but then there's a stronger part of me. I think that's pretty delusional in a good way, that I'm like, no, I'm certain that I'm supposed to do this, and I just can't falter. This is what I'm doing.

Michael Jamin:

When you mean do this, what do you mean? Do what?

Mackenzie Barman:

Just be an actor and be in this industry. I've always felt that way about myself, and it's weird. It's a weird just knowing, and I don't want to come off pretentious at all about it. I'm not saying, oh my God, I'm so good. It's more of just like a, no, I know this is what I have to do. It's weird.

Michael Jamin:

But I'm wondering if you, because you got a giant following. I mean, and it's weird. On TikTok, you have 3 million fans, but on any given day a hundred makes, it doesn't mean 3 million going to see your work. The algorithm is so weird. But I wonder if you have any bigger plans from this or from, what are they then, other than getting cast and having someone else? What else?

Mackenzie Barman:

No, so really, I really, truly, I think that I need to create the vehicle for myself. And I think a lot of people do that and need to do that. I don't think people just, it's rare that you're just discovered or someone's like you. I'm going to cast you. It's just so rare. And so I am definitely being proactive with writing and stuff, and I've written a pilot. I have a treatment for that pilot, and that's the clearest idea I have. I'm also writing a one woman show at the moment, like a stage show. Great. I'm in the early planning stages, early as is. I just had this idea two days ago of a monthly kind of mackenzie and Friends comedy show.

Michael Jamin:

What

Mackenzie Barman:

Kind of show? I think I want it just to be a variety show of whatever the comedians want to do.

Michael Jamin:

And it'll be a stage show.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, stage show. And I would just host it. But also, I have treatments that I'm working on for TV series and movies, and so I'm flushing those out, getting everything in order. I really, really want to pitch in 2024 and be ready for that. And I also want to write,

It's something, excuse me, that I kind of recently, I think I always have liked that part of the process, but I think in my mind, I always thought to be a writer, you have to sit down and write, there's only one way to do it, and this is how you have to do it. But I'm learning that it's just not that way. I think David Mamet, he paces and he talks out loud before he ever sits down to write. And so I did. I host a podcast that I'm bringing back in January that I had Cola Cola on, and I love them. And I was talking to them and I was saying that, oh, I'm not a writer. And they were like, no, you just do it backwards. And they write on TV shows and all that. And it really changed. They had an effect on me when they said that because it really changed.

Michael Jamin:

So what is your intention with the podcast then? You're busy. Well, the

Mackenzie Barman:

Podcast. I know, I'm trying, I'm so the podcast, it's called Bullshittery. It had one season, but I did it on TikTok Live, and I did not like that format at all. I thought it would be fun and experimental, and it just felt like a TikTok Live and not an actual podcast. So I'm doing it now in person in January, now that I'm here, and it's like an interview-based podcast, but it's very loose structure and just chatting with different people that are kind of in the industry, our comedians, and just a loy sheet of shit.

Michael Jamin:

You're going to rent a studio for that?

Mackenzie Barman:

I'm going to do it in my apartment. In

Michael Jamin:

Your apartment? Yeah. Very good. So you got to get another microphone. Is that what you're going to do? I got to

Mackenzie Barman:

Get another mic.

Michael Jamin:

And you got to edit it though.

Mackenzie Barman:

And I got to edit it. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

That's work too.

Mackenzie Barman:

I know, I know. And TikTok live was easy because the sound and the video were just there. I really didn't have to edit that. But this I will, because I'm going to up the quality a little bit. I'm going to use a proper camera and do it. Do it right.

Michael Jamin:

You can need a couple cameras. You probably, you want two cameras and maybe a master. Right.

Mackenzie Barman:

I was thinking that of either doing one and just keeping it in a two shot the whole time, which some people do. But also doing the single cam on each side. I don't know yet. I don't know yet. I'm open to suggestions if you have any. Oh,

Michael Jamin:

I don't know. There are studios that you can go and rent it out and they'll do the whole thing, but you pay by the hour.

Mackenzie Barman:

I know. I, I did that once in la. It was actually a great experience. I love doing it, but I'd rather, because I don't have any sponsors yet. Once I get sponsors, then I can kind of up my,

Michael Jamin:

I think you need around 10,000 downloads to get meaningful sponsors. I think I

Mackenzie Barman:

So, I think so. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

You're probably not there yet, but you will be. Don't

Mackenzie Barman:

Think. But I'm also a terrible marketer, so when I was doing the podcast before, I posted a couple of videos and I was like, this just is not me. And I need to get past that. I need to just sell my stuff, but I feel guilty.

Michael Jamin:

But I bet you people don't even know. I mean, people don't, you've got a giant following. They may not be aware of it. You don't have to market it. You say, oh, by the way, new episode tomorrow. I have

Mackenzie Barman:

Some, no, I know. I really just need to do the clips, the podcast clips.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. You'll figure it out.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, I'll figure it out. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

You will. I mean, you absolutely will. And maybe you'll do characters talking about your podcast.

Mackenzie Barman:

I know. I do want to do that. I want to do bits. If I have someone to banter with and go into character with, I'll definitely do that. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

It's amazing how when I moved to la, I was young. I didn't have any of this shit that you got going on. I didn't even occur. I don't know. I wasn't as extroverted and as, I don't think, as confident as you are. So yeah, you're going places.

Mackenzie Barman:

I'm trying. I really am trying. Well, I know where I have to end up, so I know that I need to get in there.

Michael Jamin:

And when you say, and okay, you want to be on tv, you want to be, the problem is not many sitcoms anymore.

Mackenzie Barman:

I know. Well, I really, I am more of a streaming series girl. My ideal dream seriously would be to be a series regular on an hour long drama, drama d kind of a show that would be like,

Michael Jamin:

Tell me what show that you absolutely love that you wish you could be part of

Mackenzie Barman:

Something,

Michael Jamin:

And it doesn't have to be on the air anymore. So

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, there's a couple there, obviously. Huh? Well, I loved Big Little Lies. I love an ensemble like that. The White Lotus. If I could be on the White Lotus, that would be the, honestly, above all, that would be the show I would want to be on right now.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. Okay.

Mackenzie Barman:

Succession would've been one that I would've wanted to be on. It has that snarky, realistic element to it that I love. But I also love shows like Search Party or The Comeback. I want to do a mockumentary. I want to play a version of myself. Right. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

I don't, well, you can do a series on TikTok. Just bang something out.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

I don't know. You already are. You kind of already are.

Mackenzie Barman:

I kind of already am. And I do try to sprinkle in dramatic elements too sometimes. And I don't know, it's funny. I like to evoke weird reactions from people. I'm laughing, but I'm also upset. I making people feel like that.

Michael Jamin:

I wonder, I think you're going to get to the point, I don't know, maybe you already are, where your reps, your agent manager, whatever, introduce new clients to you as to spring help springboard them. You really have a big platform. Has that coming? Has that happened yet?

Mackenzie Barman:

No, not yet. I don't know. It's so hard now because it's so forward facing too. I feel like there are some people that just do so well with the pop culture element of being present and being up to date with pop culture, I think is so huge. And I don't really touch upon that too, too much. So there's that small aspect I think that's keeping me from going even bigger. You know what I mean?

Michael Jamin:

Well, you did a piece where you kind of made fun of Congress when they were doing the TikTok here. Yes.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. I'll mess around with it sometimes if I see a good opportunity and I'll do it.

Michael Jamin:

But you think you need to be more topical?

Mackenzie Barman:

I think from what I see, and this might just be because we all have different worlds now too, which is another thing from my world, it seems like the people that do really well and that become kind of more forward facing are people who lean into pop culture and things that are really trending in that moment. And I feel like I maybe just don't do that enough. Not that it's a bad thing. It's almost intentional maybe. But

Michael Jamin:

Are you studying people wondering, are you trying to emulate other creators? Is that what you mean?

Mackenzie Barman:

No, I don't think I'm trying to emulate any other creators. I honestly think my biggest influences come from people outside of TikTok.

Michael Jamin:

Who are they then? Who are your influences?

Mackenzie Barman:

Like Lisa Kudrow, Tony Collette, actors,

Michael Jamin:

Amy Think, Amy Poller,

Mackenzie Barman:

Amy Poer, the classics. They're like,

Michael Jamin:

And do you think of them to get inspiration, or what do you mean when you mention them?

Mackenzie Barman:

I think that's just what comes together in my brain. It is all in there, and then it just all goes away, and then something comes out from it. I don't think I'm actively thinking like, oh, I need to channel Amy Po here, or be, I think the person that I'm closest to unintentionally, but I'll notice it sometimes, is Lisa Kudrow. I think I just love her so much and her isms that I feel like I might imitate her more than I even realized. Watch videos sometimes I'll be like, that was very Lisa cre. I'm like, that moment. But I think I'm developing my unique voice that's a blend of all these people.

Michael Jamin:

That's the step. And then I was going to say, how do you use art to influence what you do if you do? Yeah.

Mackenzie Barman:

How do I use art to influence?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I don't know. I guess what I'm asking is where are you drawing inspiration from? Who would you love to be? And maybe it's Lisa Kra. I know your version of them, but whatever.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, I don't really know. I feel like I always have the thought in my brain that I, I'm very conscious about what I'm putting out. Is this too silly that it's dumb? Or is it too serious that I feel like, oh my gosh, I don't even know what really influences my

Michael Jamin:

Well, are there videos then that you don't put out? I mean, you shoot and you're like, eh, I'm not putting this up.

Mackenzie Barman:

Rarely. Most of those are the silly tiktoks of if I see a viral sound or something and I'll just do it, but I won't post it, I'll just do it. I dunno. It feels weird. It feels like I'm breaking some rule with myself to go outside of, and it might be this snobbish thing that I'm doing. It might be like, oh, I need to be this character actor person. And then if I break out of that and I'm just like a real girly girl, I don't know, maybe. I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

Well, but that's interesting. I feel there are certain trends and there's certain challenges you could do, and I don't partake in any of that shit. I feel like I'm too old for it, but I also feel like that's just not my brand. I'm not going to do any of that. And I wonder if you feel the same way.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, I'll watch them and I'll enjoy them. Even sometimes I'll do them and I'll record them, and then I've posted a couple some, but most of the time it just feels weird to do it. I feel like I'm like, again, maybe that's that imposter syndrome creeping. I'm like, nobody wants to see me do this. Nobody wants to hear me talk about this or,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, but then, and you might be right, the thing is, you might be right. You might try that. And if you get almost, I dunno, whatever, a low view count, then you're like, I guess they didn't want to hear it then. And it may just be random.

Mackenzie Barman:

And then you're in your head like, oh my gosh, if I'm my real self and they don't like it, right? Oh my God, they don't like me, do I? And I think maybe that's part of it too. It's like I am confident when I'm acting because it's not me anymore. It's like it's somebody else. Their fear is gone really of like, well, if you don't like it, it's not me. You don't like, it's them you don't like. But when it's just me being myself, I'm questioning my humor. I'm questioning my relatability. I'm questioning my, am I girly enough? Am I quirky? It's too many thoughts.

Michael Jamin:

No, I get that. I mean, on the occasions that I'm funny in my video, I'm like, this better be funny. This guy says he's a comedy writer. What's going to throw shade at me? And they'll be, right.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. But I admire that. And it seems silly when I'm talking about it, it seems like just be yourself. I know people love me, but I don't know. It just feels weird. But I admire so much, and I watch all the videos of people who are just like, story time. I'm going to tell you this time. And I love that. I don't know. I just feel like if I do it, I'll record it and watch it. I'll be like, the story is dumb. Or I don't know, a lot of self-doubt, but it's weird. It's like I can have self-doubt here, but then I'm like, no, this is amazing. Somewhere else.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Okay. And is there any thought, I guess there isn't because you kind of improv this, but I'm always thinking, I better get too, because people got that thumb on and they can scroll so fast. Do you give any thought to that? How fast you're going to get this thing moving? How fast you're going to get to the good part?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. Because I think sometimes the music helps if people, that's why I always will use sinister music, because people immediately are like, oh, what's going on here? And I think that will compensate for me taking my beats and taking my sweet time with it. Because at the end of the day too, I love storytelling and I love of keeping people engaged with something. So I kind of let the music do that part. But I do think about that, oh, I should really get to it quickly within the first 10, 15 seconds at least. But even then, it's too late.

Michael Jamin:

It's so interesting. I don't know how we're supposed to handle any of this, but again, I guess I want to get back to you before I get to let you go, before you respond. The relationships that you've formed, I guess they are your fans and you correspond with them, whatever.

Mackenzie Barman:

And a couple have become friends, a couple of Really, yeah. There's a couple people that I've just messaged and just vibed with you just kind of, most of the time it's like nothing. But do

Michael Jamin:

They reach out to you first? Or how does that work?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, there have been a couple people that I noticed will comment a lot, and then I'll kind of randomly respond to dms on Instagram. I respond to a lot of dms, honestly. But then sometimes if there's just, you just know energetically. If they're kind of odd or they're kind of pushy or they say something weird, then I'm like, okay, bye. But sometimes they'll be kind of funny and kind of like bantering. I'm like, huh, okay. There's a girl, Faye, I love her. Shout out Faye. She's from Ireland. And I love people that are not from the United States, too. If you're from England or Ireland or somewhere, I'm going to love you automatically. But she's from Ireland, and we were kind of joking about her teaching me an Irish accent, whatever. So we were like voice memoing back and forth. And then she's the one who now Photoshops my Danny and Babs photos. She's just amazing at it. And she's like, I'll just do it. Don't worry about it. I'm like,

Michael Jamin:

Oh, wow.

Mackenzie Barman:

Okay.

Michael Jamin:

Isn't that nice? I

Mackenzie Barman:

Love her. I love her. Wow.

Michael Jamin:

It's such an interesting, I don't know, community, and I wonder how big this thing is. I wonder how many creators. There's a small circle that I seem to be in, and I'm like, is this everybody? Or am I missing about 10 billion of us?

Mackenzie Barman:

I think it's both because I feel like it's a small world. Most of the time, the people I know, the other people that I know and influencers are comedic content creators. But then there will be somebody with 12 million followers who I've never seen or heard of before, and I'm like, I did not know you even existed, but you're so famous on the internet. And I'm like, I've never seen you. So it's weird.

Michael Jamin:

And you reach out to them, or No, you just follow them or

Mackenzie Barman:

Something. Oh, no, I'll just hear about it. Or I'll see a random person pop up on TikTok and go to their profile and they have 12 million. And I'm like, I have never seen you before. It's just odd. It's such

Michael Jamin:

An odd thing. There's this woman that I follow, and maybe you've heard of her. She's digging a ton under her house, but

Mackenzie Barman:

I want to be on that.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I don't know where she lives, but she has a house and she's literally digging. She has a lab coat, and she's pouring concrete and she's digging, and it's just her passion. But I don't know if she's a, I don't think

Mackenzie Barman:

She is that legal. Can you do that?

Michael Jamin:

Right. And she's not really, I don't think she's a certified structural engineer, but she has all these books and she's reading them. She's like, and this is how I learned how to do the electricity. It's like, oh my God, I just had to read this book. And so she's like a mad scientist. And then she was picked up on Yahoo. Yahoo did an article about her, and then I DMed her. Look at, you're on Yahoo now.

Mackenzie Barman:

Oh my gosh.

Michael Jamin:

There's just so many interesting people doing interesting things. I'm like, wow.

Mackenzie Barman:

No, I know. I'm deep on some tiktoks. I love conspiracy talk. I love it. I don't buy into it, but I love it.

Michael Jamin:

But see, I don't want to, don't think you want to get too far. You don't want to.

Mackenzie Barman:

I know.

Michael Jamin:

I know. You can keep them from a distance, but you don't want to,

Mackenzie Barman:

You start to tread a line where you're like, wait a minute, this is suddenly not where I want to be. That happens.

Michael Jamin:

Right? Wow. Mackenzie, thank you so much for joining me. What an interesting, again, I have such admiration for what you do and I'm a fan, and there it is. Yeah,

Mackenzie Barman:

I mean, you too. I mean, we got to talk shop too at some

Michael Jamin:

Point. Well, when we finish this, we will do that, but I want to make sure everyone knows where to find you. So tell everyone what all your handles are.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, follow me guys. I'm at Mackenzie Barman everywhere. So I'm

Michael Jamin:

Everywhere

Mackenzie Barman:

At Mackenzie Barman. I'm mostly on TikTok and Instagram. But follow me on YouTube too, because I'll be there and Snapchat

Michael Jamin:

Can find me. I dunno anything about Snap, but alright. Thank you again and don't go anywhere. I'll sign off. I won't. Alright, everyone, another great talk. Be like her. Go follow her. Just put yourself out there and then work on it and you'll get better and better. Okay, everyone, until next week, keep creating.

So now we all know what the hell Michael Jamin is talking about. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for my free monthly webinars @michaeljamin.com/webinar. And if you found this podcast helpful or entertaining, please share it with a friend and consider leaving us a five star review on iTunes that really, really helps. For more of this, whatever the hell this is, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. And you can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane and music was composed by Anthony Rizzo. And remember, you can have excuses or you can have a creative life, but you can't have both. See you next week.

I've heard time and time again that TV Writers and Hollywood have an agenda. In my 26 years of TV writing and showrunning experience, I don't agree.

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"To make it in Hollywood you have to sell your soul." A lot of people seem to think Hollywood is full of people looking to get ahead by throwing the next person under the bus. This week we discuss the topic of selling one's soul and not in the cool fun branded water kind of way.

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How does one direct voice-over talent? In this episode, Michael & Phil discuss the difference between traditional live-action directing and voice-over directing which is typically done in animation.

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Learn about Michael's new labor of love and a live performance based on writing in his new book coming to LA and other cities in the USA.

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Ever wonder what it's like to run a TV Show? In this episode, Michael and Phil discuss the nuances of being a TV Showrunner.

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In today's special episode, Phil Hudson is the show's star as we discuss his first real experience in the writer's room. The writer's assistant on Tacoma FD was out for a week, and Phil, our Writer's PA, filled in. If you've ever wanted to know what the job of a TV Writer's Assistant or Writer's Production Assistant is, this episode is for you.

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Another round of Q&A with Michael Jamin. To get your questions answered, follow Michael on Instagram and leave your question on the Q&A Tile when it is posted.

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There are a lot of misconceptions about what it's like to be a screenwriter, and writers are to blame. This week Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson dive into what it's like and what TV and Film get wrong.

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You are more than just your writing. In this week's episode, Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson discuss how to grow as a writer and become that professional. We promise this is a good one.

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In this episode, Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson discuss the emotional story: what your story is really about. This is fundamental to young writers so make sure you pay close attention to this one.

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On this week's episode, I have choreographer Phil Wright. We talk about the huge risk he took moving out to Los Angeles from a successful career in Miami. He dives into some of the famous people he has worked with as well as what his most viral video is. There is so much more so make sure you tune in.

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Phil Wright:

And it's hard because we're working when we're not working, there's no punching and punch out clock with

Michael Jamin:

Us.

Phil Wright:

So it's tough. So getting the brain to relax and just actually sit down and watch a movie and not worry about camera angles, or how did he save his line to make him funny?

Michael Jamin:

Really?

Phil Wright:

I've lost, and which I'm trying to get back to. I've lost the concept of just being a consumer.

Michael Jamin:

You're listening to. What the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity. I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts.

Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin, another episode of, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about, guys. So as you know, I'm really into talking to creative people who've just done interesting things and have invented themselves in ways. And so ordinarily I talk to screenwriters and authors and actors and directors, people like that, but I just discovered this guy I want to introduce you to. His name is Phil Wright, and he's the first dancer choreographer I'm talking to, which I think is so, I don't know. I got a lot of questions for you. Phil. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for doing this,

Phil Wright:

Dude. Thank you for having me. I'm such a fan, man. You don't realize I'm such a good fan. I watch your page all the time. I'm always interested in what you're getting into. Ah,

Michael Jamin:

That's very kind. I'm a fan of you. I have to know doing something, which is really interesting. Not a lot of people can make a living as a dancer and even a choreographer that's even fewer people. And yet this is, so where did this all begin then?

Phil Wright:

Okay, so originally from Miami, Florida. I moved to LA about 10 years ago. I had stepped into the dance world accidentally, I guess because I wasn't really technically trained per se. I didn't start at a young age. I started dancing on the streets. That's when we had crews, and if you weren't part of a crew, then you were a nerd. And I wasn't a nerd by any means. I wasn't book smart, so you had to be a part of a crew, and that's what it was. So it sort of kept me off of the street, out of trouble and fast forward, moved to LA about 10 years ago and just rebranded myself in what I was trying to do with my career. I actually started teaching children to start things off. Kind of got like, you know what? I think I could do better. I think I could, when you

Michael Jamin:

Say teaching children, you were teaching at schools at where? Yeah,

Phil Wright:

Teaching at local dance studios around the neighborhood. And honestly, it just started off like, Hey, I need some extra money, man. So I'm serving tables at Applebee's, serving two for twenties and three o'clock rolls around. I go teach a class and do my double shift, go right back to Applebee's and do the same thing all over again. And we won't talk about poker nights. But anyway.

Michael Jamin:

So you were starting at the bottom, but when you moved to la, did you hope to get in music videos? What was your aspiration?

Phil Wright:

Well, I mean, first off, I had sort of established myself in Miami. I started teaching for the Miami Heat Dance Team. Oh, really? Miami Billboard Awards, the Latin Billboard awards. And I had sort of caught fire in Miami, and I had an apartment in BIS Camp Boulevard. So I was fine. I didn't really need to move.

Michael Jamin:

So that must have been hard. You're going to leave all that behind.

Phil Wright:

Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

You wanted a bigger pool or what? It was

Phil Wright:

Huge. It was a huge sacrifice. And then at that time, my girlfriend, well, now wife, I just came home and I just sort of got motivated by my friends who had moved from Miami to la.

Michael Jamin:

And how old were you at this point when you decided to leave it behind?

Phil Wright:

Dude, I told my kids this all the time. It's never too late. I moved to Los Angeles when I was 26 years old.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Okay. Well, you're still young, but, but yeah,

Phil Wright:

But in artistry world, especially if you're in front of the camera, not behind the camera writing or

Michael Jamin:

Directly,

Phil Wright:

If you're in front of the camera and you have eyes on the camera, you have to be, I don't know, fresh, I guess. I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

Well, especially dancing, because it takes a wear and tear on your body. I mean, it really does. Definitely.

Phil Wright:

So during that time, you would consider that, woo, that's kind of late in the game. So I moved to LA and started all over, man. I had gave up everything and I had dreams, and I gave it all up and moved to LA to sleep on the floor in my friend's apartment, one bedroom apartment with roaches crawling on me, just,

Michael Jamin:

And then where did you start from? I should mention, because I haven't said this before. You're huge on YouTube. You've got well over a million followers. That's a big deal, man. That's a very big deal. Thank you. So I mean a household name, but you are making quite a name for yourself. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

Phil Wright:

I like to say this broke, gets creative really quick.

Michael Jamin:

Yes. Tell me how

Phil Wright:

The motivation to, it's not money per se, it's sort of just being productive. You know what I mean? If I can stay productive, the money will follow. But when you don't necessarily have opportunities knocking at the door every single day, you have to sort of create those opportunities.

Michael Jamin:

So how were you doing that? What were you doing?

Phil Wright:

This was the time when Instagram was around and we had our 15 second videos. These were 15 second videos. And I would go out on the street, gorilla style, no permits. I hope they won't catch me now, but no permits, no nothing. And I would get the most popular song that would drop at midnight, photograph something, get two or three friends, and record a dance routine in the middle of the street.

Michael Jamin:

And this, was it Vine or Instagram?

Phil Wright:

This was Instagram during the time. This is after Vine.

Michael Jamin:

Okay.

Phil Wright:

Now, strategically, what I would do is get the teachers that were already teaching in the classrooms, but I wasn't teaching during that time. No one knew who I was. I knew who those people were because I took those people's classes. So they knew I was a great dancer. They knew I was good people. So they would say, sure, yeah, Phil, we'll dance with you. And no one really, at that time, videos were not big. They weren't a big deal. So I would get them and they would just, Hey, look. And my pitch was like, I only need 15 seconds your time. That's it. 15 seconds, we'll do two eight counts. That's it. And you'll make a new appearance and then you bounce out. But

Michael Jamin:

What was your expectation when you were putting these videos up?

Phil Wright:

My expectations were to get into classrooms, to teach classes.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, okay. Why? Because you need a following to get to teach in a classroom.

Phil Wright:

Absolutely.

Michael Jamin:

Really?

Phil Wright:

Absolutely. See

Michael Jamin:

That I did not know, even in a small little private studio, you need a following.

Phil Wright:

You need a following. If people don't know who you are, they're not coming to take class.

Michael Jamin:

But I would think that my daughters went to take dance class and there was a studio in the neighborhood, and we went there.

Phil Wright:

Yeah, I mean, well, I'm thinking, I'm talking more of entertainment, not your residential.

Michael Jamin:

So these classes are more,

Phil Wright:

These are professional

Michael Jamin:

Dance classes, classes,

Phil Wright:

Debbie Reynolds Dance Complex. These are where the pros go to

Michael Jamin:

Try. Okay.

Phil Wright:

And my hope was is to grab these teachers and let them be a part of my video, and I produce it. Well, I cut it. I get on my little editing app, cut it up really quick. And my hope was is if they were ever absent, the studios would see that and say, oh, wow, who's this guy dance with? JR Taylor. Oh, Jr. R Taylor's out next week. Let's just get this guy, because JR Taylor must know this guy.

Michael Jamin:

So funny, because I did a post a while ago where I said, get in the neighborhood, get as close as you can physically possible to the person whose job you want, pick up their scraps. And that's exactly what you did. You just pick up their scraps. And now you're that guy now.

Phil Wright:

Yeah. And you know what? I actually had a friend of mine, we guess, I don't know, associates, and he came to me, and during that time, I had asked him to be a part of my video. At that time, no one knew me or this and that, and he declined. He was just like, no, I don't have time and everything like that. And now, fast forward six, seven years later, I invited him to my house, to my birthday party. Actually, dude, I've never told you this, but I have to apologize. I didn't know you. I was like, dude, that's water on the bridge. Doesn't matter. You didn't know me. You know what I mean? But I had to put myself out there for people to even say my name, whether if it was good or bad, at least I'm buzzing in some type of way. But

Michael Jamin:

You see, people didn't know how serious you were. I'm sure you must've known people who did what you did and gave up after about a week and a half.

Phil Wright:

Yeah. But bro, I was on a tyrant. I would shoot, say five to seven videos a day, and remember, it's only 15 seconds. So I would shoot that and then release 'em every day throughout.

Michael Jamin:

It's difficult. It becomes, you're never done. You're never done. It's like, I imagine it's sorting the mail. The mail doesn't stop coming, man. And that's what posting is like. Do you still keep that same schedule?

Phil Wright:

Well, it's tough. Now. I got two kids. I got a wife, you know what I mean? Now my home base is traveling. I travel a lot. I'm always on the plane. And I've already built up this sort of following online to where now I can, Hey, I'm in Arizona. I can put a post out and say, Hey, I'm in Arizona. And then I'll just get a wild spread of emails. Hey, could you come to my studio? Hey, could you come here?

Michael Jamin:

Is that right? So that's okay. So I want to know how that works. You decide what city you're going to go to, and you'll spend a week there. You decide, this is all your decision, right? I'm going to go to Phoenix. And then somehow, because all these people follow you on social media, these studio owners, they book you, and they know that the people, your fans are going to come see you at the studio. So it's easy for them. It's almost like a no brainer.

Phil Wright:

Well, that's the hope. You know what I mean? That you post that and they hope that people come to the studio. But in reality, I do so much with posting and promoting their own studio. They're going to go to Michael Jamin, writers Dance Studio five o'clock, see you there. Whether or not people come or not, the fact that I'm showing up there gives you such a boost to say, Hey, Phil Wright was at my studio. This is the footage. This is the class footage. You might want to check out Michael Jamin Writer's Studio next time that you're in town,

Michael Jamin:

But are you getting paid a percentage of the people who come, or are they just booking you? And regardless,

Phil Wright:

We're past that,

Michael Jamin:

Steve. We can't talk about that. I want to know how it works to be No, no,

Phil Wright:

No. We can definitely, no, that's sort of like the beginning stages of things. People handle their own the way they want to, but I work off of a flat rate, so

Michael Jamin:

So they book, you get paid either way,

Phil Wright:

Right? They book the hotel, the flight, they booked me my

Michael Jamin:

Time's. So interesting. So you're almost like a comedian, except you're doing dance.

Phil Wright:

Own my own boss, my own company. I created my own company for, right, Inc. And was able to go move off of that. So

Michael Jamin:

Do you have employees working for you? Is that what Well,

Phil Wright:

I did have an assistant that helped me all the logistics, like getting the flights and the hotels and stuff like that. But she's moved on to bigger and better things. But now I'm just solely working for myself right now, just I don't have How many,

Michael Jamin:

So you travel every week. Are you in a different city every

Phil Wright:

Week? Yeah. So I also do work for another company, a dance convention called Break the Floor. So they hire me seasonal throughout the fall up until the summer, and then I have that. So that's where you see all, I'm in the ballroom full of kids in the classes. They have numbers on their chest and

Michael Jamin:

Stuff. And those kids, what do they aspire? What do those kids, when you say, what do you think they want?

Phil Wright:

Most of them want to be professional dancers. Some of them just want to be in the room, some of them. Or you get the families that were past pro dancers that are trying to get the other kids into their kids, into dancing. So the motivation is like, yes, this is a professional. We're hiring Phil Wright, he's coming to Nebraska. Get your tickets now.

Michael Jamin:

See? And you have to have the right temperament for that, because you have to have the right energy to deal with kids. I mean, I wonder if there's a lot of people like you who do that.

Phil Wright:

Well, I would say there's not too many kid teachers out there.

Michael Jamin:

It's interesting. You've got this niche for yourself,

Phil Wright:

Enormous amount of patience. So

Michael Jamin:

Yes.

Phil Wright:

So I think that helps me out in my age. I'm very one of the very few that teaches kids. There are other few teachers out there, but I think that's where most of my clock comes from.

Michael Jamin:

Do you have a community of other dancers like yourself who do what you do?

Phil Wright:

Yeah. I mean, some of them are more on the pro side, like, Hey, they work with artists per se only. Right?

Michael Jamin:

Interesting.

Phil Wright:

Luckily for me, I'm in a space where I get to do a little bit of everything,

Michael Jamin:

Really.

Phil Wright:

I choreographed commercials. I just finished a commercial with Kevin Hart and DraftKings. That's going to come out later.

Michael Jamin:

You got to teach him how to dance.

Phil Wright:

Well, that was pretty funny. That was pretty funny. He came up to me and he was missing his cue, and I was like, because he was supposed to do a pump, and the pyro was supposed to go off in the back. And I go up to Kevin, I was like, Kevin, dude, you're making me look bad, man. You're not pumping on time. He goes, Phil, when you get to a status of mine, you're going to do whatever the hell you want to do.

Michael Jamin:

Really? Oh, alright. As long as the director's

Phil Wright:

Okay. I go, okay, okay. And I said, well, after we did the take, I go, well, I guess I'm out of a job then. Thanks cv. And he started laugh. So that was sort of a moment for me.

Michael Jamin:

I said this to my wife a couple of weeks ago because I was just, I don't know what got me started. I was the thing about choreography, which to me is so, because I'm not a dancer, I don't know how you guys do anything. It's so interesting. I don't know how you guys do it. It's like you're telling a story with movement and really good choreography is from my unknown. My opinion is, I guess just an outsider. To me, it's so specific to that song. It's almost like you can't even use that move in another song. An extreme example would be Michael Jackson's thriller. Okay, you're dancing like a zombie. You can't use those zombie moves in another video. It just won't work. And it's like, I don't know how you guys do that. I don't know how you even begin. Where do you begin when you choreograph a piece?

Phil Wright:

The creative process can be interesting for each individual choreographer. Everyone else has their own process. It's like writing. You may burn incense and then get in, go into a dark or something like that. Whatever happens to me. But the creative process is quite different from a lot for a lot of different people. For me, per se, I go to sleep with the music on. I wake up to the music, I listen to the lyrics as much as possible, and I get into a very creative mode where it's not manufactured. What I mean by that is it's not like, okay, I'm going to go here and think I'm going to go here, rather than just kind of letting my body settle in and let it happen. It's almost like, I don't know, cold reading, if you will, just off the whim, let's just go off of the cuff. And then that's where my creative juices start to flow. Now I get into a mode where I do it very subconsciously. I try not to block out hours to choreograph. I sort of just go out throughout my day and create movement and live life as easy as

Michael Jamin:

Possible. But then how do you remember if you're choreographing it on the fly, then how do you remember? What do you do? You film yourself?

Phil Wright:

Film myself. Yeah. Film myself real quick. It's like an idea. Writing. Oh, an idea. Lemme write that down.

Michael Jamin:

And when you're dancing, is it in your head or is it in your body? Where are you remembering these

Phil Wright:

Moves? Some of it is, is initiated with through feeling and emotion, man and heart. Some things just touch you all so much on an emotional level. That's why I say manufactured is going through your head and trying to say, okay, let me form these shapes on the dance floor. And

Michael Jamin:

He shapes,

Phil Wright:

Yeah, shapes and movement and how you would love to see your class move.

Michael Jamin:

Well, that's another thing. Now I'm thinking about you're choreographing just yourself, but you might have everyone, I might be doing something different. It has to mesh together. And

Phil Wright:

I'm thinking about the masses, man. I'm thinking about what I would want to choreograph and how would this put me in a mood? Let's just say like Beyonce's new Renaissance tour album I put on her album. I'm thinking about arenas, I'm thinking about. So I think of that, and that puts me in a mode of larger movement to please a larger crowd. Whereas you take that compared to TikTok dancing, you have to say it in this little

Michael Jamin:

Box. Yeah, right.

Phil Wright:

Please. You're more of a commercial. You're trying to sell or promote something.

Michael Jamin:

It's

Phil Wright:

Different. Yeah. It's much, much, much different.

Michael Jamin:

Are you watching other dancers and saying, oh my God, how do I do that? Or that move?

Phil Wright:

I get inspired all the time. I know some choreographers don't like to watch, but I love to watch. And you know what? To their point, you don't want to watch so much because subconsciously when you get into your creative process, you end up doing what they do. You know what I mean? It's like,

Michael Jamin:

Ah. Well, that's the thing. Do you feel like you have a defined feel right style that you don't want? Do you not want be inspired, too much inspiration from somebody else? Because you don't want it to bleed into your work. You don't want to dilute your voice.

Phil Wright:

My inspiration comes from hard work and ethic, or how they're working and how they're releasing their content rather than the actual material.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, I see.

Phil Wright:

Or how are they promoting it or how are they editing it? You know what I mean? Oh, what's the new camera that they're using? Are they doing depth? You know what I mean? So those are the things that I look for. That's where my motivation,

Michael Jamin:

Because I was going to ask you, because if you saw someone with some move that you've never seen before, would you try it? Or would you feel like, no, that's just not mine can't.

Phil Wright:

There's nothing new under this sun. It's been done already. It's definitely been done already. I don't see anything. Oh, wow. You know what I mean? It's more, for me, it's about the work ethic more than

Michael Jamin:

Anything else. Interesting. So how

Phil Wright:

Are you changing the game from yesterday into tomorrow?

Michael Jamin:

Okay, so what's your thought on that? How are you doing that?

Phil Wright:

It's hard because, well, for me, I think there should be a, well, for me, I'm in a transition phase. In 2022, no, 2020, I sold my TV show to Disney Channel.

Michael Jamin:

Yes, I wanted to talk about that. But go, yeah, let's talk about it now then.

Phil Wright:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the big worry, and let's just put this footnote, the big worry of every dancer is that, okay, my time is running out.

Michael Jamin:

What

Phil Wright:

I do, what am I, I'm not dancing anymore. You know what I mean? So I was approached by Irene Drayer, who saw an article that was written on me teachers about parents and students dancing. She said, Hey, I think this is a TV show. I said, lady, you're wasting my time. I got to go teach class. She goes, no, I'm serious. Nine months later, we're in Disney's office. This is when Gary Marsh was head of television and programming at Disney Show. And he actually came to one of my classes and saw my class and was inspired. And nine months later, I was able to sell a TV show, a dance competition show to Disney Channel.

So let's just put that to the side really quick. My hope was, okay, yes, I'm out. I got something, I sold a show. I don't have to dance anymore, really. You know what I mean? I can be a personality now. I can promote myself in a different fashion. This is another mountain that I can climb and be successful at. Fast forward TV shows goes on. We do not so well, because it was during covid no's watching TV there. Everyone was watching CNN. So our timing was off. And I went back to the drawing board. I went back to teaching. But

Michael Jamin:

You see, it's a couple of interesting things. First of all, I don't think you would've sold that show had you not already built yourself up. I mean, you have a big following. So it's not like you were just the guy with an idea, Hey, here's a show. You are a guy who had built something already who went in and pitched a show, right? I mean, it's a big difference. But I don't think people realize that. A lot of people are like, I got an idea on your first date in la. If you said, I want to sell a Dan show. Okay, well, sorry, it's not going to happen. So you had to build it first. And then the other thing is interesting is that people think that you're never done with it. The journey never ends. Wherever you are in career is more that you have to do, and you're always thinking about the next thing. So yeah. So you aspire. Well, I was going to ask you. Yeah, because knowing that youth, you lose your youth in every creative industry, you have to be always thinking about the next thing. And so you're just to be more of this personality, which you already are. I mean, maybe you don't realize it. I realize it. When you're booked to go to Arizona, it's you. They're booking. It's not even your dance moves, it's you. You know what I'm saying?

Phil Wright:

I tell my students all the time, like dancers per se, we spent a great amount of deal of creating and ultimately making these artists look

Michael Jamin:

Great on stage,

Phil Wright:

Either on stage or we're promoting a commercial to sell something or whatnot. And a lot of times, and I've seen a lot of dancers go through this, they go through this real down phase because we spend so much energy making everyone else stars.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, really?

Phil Wright:

As opposed to us being the actual star, we're stars, per se, among the dance community. But when it comes to the actual product of Target, target, target doesn't give to pennies and a crap about us. We can be replaced under their watch. But in our dance community, we're like, oh my God, Sarah's killing it. You know what I mean? But we're not, per se, really making our presence known and being our own bosses and being our own stars. And I think that was something that resonated with me. And I recognized very, very early in the game. So I wanted to put myself in the forefront to say, look, I know I'm helping you build your legacy, but at the same time, I need to build my own.

Michael Jamin:

So

Phil Wright:

That was a big, big, big thing for me.

Michael Jamin:

And so what do you do other than trying to sell TV shows? What do you do to do

Phil Wright:

That? I mean, ultimately that's the big goal right there. I just want to sell ips,

Be able to, and right now, I'm currently in acting classes. I take acting classes here as well. But I tell my students all the time, man, I have to open up so many doors. Open up all the doors that you can. I'm in acting class. I actually have two pictures next week with Disney and Nicole Nickelodeon. I'm on social media all the time. And I believe that there's three ways that you can do this. You can do this in person on social media, and you can do this on linear, on television. And if you can have those three lanes open, constantly rolling. When one door closed, God forbid we get hit with covid again. At least my online and television is rolling. Or if I don't have a TV show going right now, at least I'm in person traveling from here to there.

Michael Jamin:

Is that exhausting though? Traveling?

Phil Wright:

Oh, so

Michael Jamin:

Exhausting. So I mean, it's not like you want to do more of it. You're kind of okay with,

Phil Wright:

I mean, look, the reason why I'm okay with, it's because I'm so blessed to be able to create

Michael Jamin:

My own, to do it

Phil Wright:

And take downtime when I want to. I don't have a boss. I am. I'm the guy. So that's why there's a certain level of gratitude there. And there was a time where no one wanted me in their city. No one cared. So for some people to be like, oh my God, we will love to. We will pay X amount of dollars for you to come here.

Michael Jamin:

You camp out at one city for a week. Or will you go from Phoenix to Houston in one week?

Phil Wright:

I used to be able to go there and just chill out for the entire weekend or whatnot. No, I'll fly to New York, get off the plane, teach two or three classes, go back to the airport, go back home. The same. I want to be as efficient as possible. I want to be quick, fast. And for me, if I can make X amount of dollars in six hours with me just sleeping on a plane, then that's fine. You know what I mean? Whereas I used to travel in my red Mitsubishi to San Francisco for 200 bucks. You know what I mean? So it's a process. So it's a level of gratitude that goes with it. But I'm fast, man. I get in and I get out, and if whatever it takes to get it done, I get it done.

Michael Jamin:

Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my content, and I know you do because you're listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people like you can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michaeljamin.com. And now back to, what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about?

I guess you're a YouTuber, right? Are you in that community, that YouTube

Phil Wright:

Circle? I guess I made videos for a long time. I'm not as avid as I was before, but I was dropping videos every day. But now, here's the problem with what I was doing, is that I was using music that was licensed to these big artists. And I would get notices on my YouTube all the time and say, Hey, there's copyright infringement you can't monetize. So I never made money from my YouTube per se. You know what I mean?

Michael Jamin:

But I see people on Instagram or TikTok dancing to popular songs. I see

Phil Wright:

That. I do that all the time. But you have to understand that that influences third party companies to come after you and say,

Michael Jamin:

Sure it does. Oh my God,

Phil Wright:

We see how many views do you have on YouTube? Can you shoot this Friz commercial? Or can you do this

Michael Jamin:

Target? Oh, okay. So they're not monetizing, those people are not monetizing their Instagram that way. They're monetizing by getting brand deals or whatever.

Phil Wright:

But now, don't quote me on that because they may be monetizing. They may be. But I'm just talking about, for me, I never had the luxury of monetizing YouTube because of the copyright infringement clause. And

Michael Jamin:

On YouTube, did you teach yourself all this, or did you figure this out as you went? Or was someone helped you

Phil Wright:

Broke, gets creative really quick. I think we all established that, man, when you have nothing, man, when you're against the wall, you find ways to succeed. And fortunately, I was able to find a lane and make it work. A lot of my friends tell me today, they're like, I don't know how you did it,

Michael Jamin:

Man. Really? Yeah. Really.

Phil Wright:

And I knock on wood, man, because I'm so lucky.

Michael Jamin:

What did your family think of all this when you're starting out?

Phil Wright:

My wife is very supportive. I have a 3-year-old and a 2-year-old. So they're very young.

Michael Jamin:

No, I mean your family, your parents, my

Phil Wright:

Family at home. Well, my mom passed it 2015. And you know what? I think that had a lot to do with it as well, because a part of the notion of moving out to la I'm the baby of the family, so I was the last one to leave. So my whole motivation was to make her proud, come back home, buy her a bigger house, et cetera, et cetera. Consequently taking her life in 2015. And for some reason, and no matter what you believe in or whatever, I felt like as an artist, for me, the universe kind of gives you an exchange for some reason. And for some reason, my career, just

Michael Jamin:

Right after that, you felt there was an exchange.

Phil Wright:

I swear to you. I promise you. I promise you. It was an exchange. And I had not booked a single job in LA for two years. I get that news, and it was actually on the same day that I had booked my job, and my sister called me, she told me the news, and at that point, I went from on cloud nine to zero. None of it at all at that point. None of it. None of it matters. You know what I mean? You give these jobs and you give these companies and you give all of these achievements, so much power over you. You sort of block out the real necessity in life is life itself. So shortly after that, Mike, my career just, I went crazy and YouTube started popping off. Instagram started popping off. I started to make a name for myself. People started inquiring for me and everything. So it was a pretty wild period for me. It was emotionally kind of weird because I was appreciative, but not as appreciative as I would be if my mom were still

Michael Jamin:

Right. Yeah, it puts it all in perspective. So you must've been dealt. I mean, people don't realize the sacrifice. I don't know. I think a lot of people, you took a giant sacrifice. You left your family, and a lot of people don't want to do that. They talk about it, but they don't do it. And so everything you gained, you paid for, you paid it.

Phil Wright:

Like I said, I swear to you, I just always see it as an exchange. I always see it as an exchange. And I tell my students all the time, you work hard at it, it'll come. Talent is great. That's awesome to have. But two main things are the main reason why I'm always booked is because people like me,

Michael Jamin:

Man,

Phil Wright:

I love people. I love to talk to people. Hell, I invited you to my birthday party. I don't even know who

Michael Jamin:

You're, you did. I said, let's get you on my show.

Phil Wright:

But I love people and I love interacting and things like that. So I tell my students all the time, talent is great. It's good to have. It's a good weapon to have, but you have to be likable. You have to walk into a room and people light up because of you always have to stop if you can do that.

Michael Jamin:

And that's very interesting because what you're describing is people have to like you. What you're describing is that, that you're giving these people something you're actually, and it's not entitled. It's not like, Hey, look at me. I'm the star. What can I give you? How can I be nice to you? How can I be kind to you so that you'll like me as opposed to me, me, me, me. It's really putting the energy out

Phil Wright:

There would be at ease. People will never book me on their two year tour if I'm going to be a paint. Right? People are not going to write with you for nine months straight. And

Michael Jamin:

People talk. People talk. Yeah. I'm always just shocked when I'm on a set and some young actor or actress will behave. When don't you realize that when you leave, we all talk. We talk to our friends On other shows, you don't understand that. So be nice to people.

Phil Wright:

Right? Right. Absolutely. And then no matter how much you trust somebody, everyone has secrets that they're going to tell. So someone's going to secret to somebody else. And for whatever you think you trust, it's going to leak. But that's funny about our industry is because networking is a huge about our industry in the entertainment world, not just dancing, not just acting, not just writing, not just producing just in general. You have to network. I got hired to do an NBA commercial because one of the producer is friends with one of the parents students that I teach.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting.

Phil Wright:

Literally, he was in the room and said, man, I need a choreographer. She goes, oh my God, this cool guy teaches my daughter. He goes, okay, cool. Send him the number.

Michael Jamin:

Well, you see, that's how it works. It's like you put the energy out there. It wouldn't have worked the other way around. If you had solicited the NBA or whoever, it wouldn't have worked. I'm a go away. But when you put yourself out there, you get discovered. It's the energy thing. Absolutely. And so it's the opposite of what so many people think. It's like people always begging, hire me, hire me. And it's not what you have to do. It's the other way around.

Phil Wright:

The moment I started to pour more into myself. That's when I started booking

Michael Jamin:

More. What do you mean pour more into yourself?

Phil Wright:

When I started to make my, when I prioritized me, the times wire knocking on the door, hello, hello. Hang on. Hey, look at me. Please, please, please. No one will give me a time. Yes,

Michael Jamin:

Nobody,

Phil Wright:

Nobody. But when I started getting my own stuff, creating my own videos that's on the street for no dime, no nothing, just pure investment in art, all of a sudden everyone started to gravitate towards me and say, oh, okay. Well, we'll hire you to come and teach at the studio. And look, when I was knocking at the door, I was only trying to make a buck. I was just trying to make a pig check. So it just,

Michael Jamin:

But think how empowering that is because you're telling people you don't have to ask for permission. Just do it. It's empowering. You get to do it. You don't have to ask, just do it already.

Phil Wright:

Yeah, just do it. And we're so free to do that. And that's why I always encourage dancers and any other artist to just give yourself that power. Believe in yourself that way, because that's when you attract other giants to be a part of it.

Michael Jamin:

But that takes me to the next thing, which is you're putting yourself out there. You're exposing yourself to judgment, to ridicule. You're going to get haters. You hate. Everyone does. Yes. So what is your response to that? How do you deal with that?

Phil Wright:

I mean, for every one hater, I have 10 people who love

Michael Jamin:

Me, right? But you see the hater first. I see

Phil Wright:

Hater. It's like the hat that drops down on the stage. Everyone's doing amazing, and the hat drops

Michael Jamin:

Down. I

Phil Wright:

Wonder who's going to pick up that hat,

Michael Jamin:

Right?

Phil Wright:

But always, I don't know. Obviously there's a part of me that is a little disturbed by the hater. I'm like, you always ask yourself why? What possessed you to get your two thumbs? I just go to chitchatting like that. And I watch a lot of Gary V. I watch a lot of motivational speakers, and there's always things that they say to kind of get me uplifted, but I'm not going to sit up here and pretend like, oh, they don't bother me. And everything like that. Or the cliche, they make me work harder. I'm bothered by it. Absolutely. Because my fault is I want to please everybody.

Michael Jamin:

And

Phil Wright:

The truth is, you're not going to be able to do

Michael Jamin:

It. But how do you deal with, do you block them? Do you talk with them? What do you do?

Phil Wright:

There was a point in time where I just unfollow. I was following people unnecessarily just because I want it to be in the face, and I want it to be. But now I've sort of shaved down that if I look, I'll give you an example. If I was go on my Instagram page, I should be able to look at posts without even putting on the value and liking it. Everyone I follow is someone who I stand by and trust with my eyes closed. It's like you're watching a video and you don't even have to turn on the Valium and they're just talking. You like it because you just like it. Right? That's whoever I follow is that's the motivation that comes behind

Michael Jamin:

That. But when someone comes on your page though, and they call you, whatever they say about you, do you block them? What do you do at all? Do you just ignore them? What do you do? I

Phil Wright:

Don't get too many, to be quite honest. If there's, they come in sporadic moments, but if there's an unnecessary comment, I delete it immediately.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. You delete it, but you don't block 'em. Yeah,

Phil Wright:

Because I don't even block 'em, because I've blocked some people before. It's very rare,

Michael Jamin:

Because

Phil Wright:

Really got to understand, I work with children, I work with kids. I work with a lot of kids. So that's not much negativity around the world to say anything bad about a child. Every now and then, I do other pieces of content where I'm not with children all the time, and then I get wacky comments or whatever. But I would immediately delete it because, just because I think negativity attracts more negativity. Positivity attracts more positivity. So I just immediately delete

Michael Jamin:

It. Yeah. I don't want to see it. I don't want to see

Phil Wright:

It. I don't even really read it all the way through. It's just see something. There was sometimes I put somebody in check. I kind of have checked somebody

Michael Jamin:

And did that work?

Phil Wright:

Yeah. Oh, because then all of my fans and all of my people are like,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I mean, I ask you, because I'm relatively new to this. And I always ask people, how do you deal with this? Because it's putting yourself out there. And I think this keeps a lot of people from actually putting themselves out there. The negativity.

Phil Wright:

Yeah. No, but you know what? Sometimes it's a blessing in disguise.

Michael Jamin:

How's that?

Phil Wright:

It allows the people who love you to come to bat for you.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, that's true.

Phil Wright:

They come to bat. And sometimes it's okay. So the next time you get a hater, a writer writing, just fall back. Don't even say anything.

Michael Jamin:

I do that sometimes. I'm not as good as you are. I'm not as involved.

Phil Wright:

Just fall back. Just fall back and just let, because

Michael Jamin:

Sometimes you don't get that reaction. Sometimes you get other people saying, yeah, they jump on. That's what I'm worried about.

Phil Wright:

But then that's when you swipe and delete real.

Michael Jamin:

That's when you just never know. I get some of that. I think someone's going to defend me, and instead I get someone else piling on. I like, oh, man.

Phil Wright:

But you know what? It is good to know that you have people that support you in a way that they will. I think that's important to do every now and then. But for the most part, I erase it, take it off. Because I don't want more people to be attracted to that idea of negativity. I just can't. I don't.

Michael Jamin:

Do you still collaborate with other dancers and choreographers or No, not so much anymore.

Phil Wright:

Not too much. I used to, not so much, because my thought process is for the next 10 years, I want to get into a world where sitting behind a desk and I'm able to create, there are handful, few,

Michael Jamin:

But create what?

Phil Wright:

Ideas, ideas, television shows, also selling recreational programs. Like there's this program I was just on, America's Got Talent, and we went on as the Parent Jam, so where kids and parents can dance with one another, which was after that. So I'm trying to see if we can license that in recreational centers and dance studios, and maybe I can sort of get that abroad. But that's a work in progress.

Michael Jamin:

I mean, it seems real smart, this little niche you got yourself, because parents will spend anything on their kids

Phil Wright:

And they will do anything for their kids,

Michael Jamin:

Right? So

Phil Wright:

They would get on the dance line. That's what sort of kind of propelled the idea, because they were able to get on, oh, I'm a lawyer, dude, but I love my daughter, so I'll do it.

Michael Jamin:

Right. They're at that age until they get older.

Phil Wright:

Just thinking about trying to expand that idea, trying to be in that world, trying to land up a couple gigs as an actor, hopefully, fingers crossed. Trying to pitch another idea for a television show. Just trying to fill the void of being an entertainer fully.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I'm inspired by what you've done. I really am. Because who are you? You're guy. You're just a guy who built it. That's all. You're a guy who built it.

Phil Wright:

You know what? It gets hard. Obviously. There are times where I work a little too much.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, really?

Phil Wright:

Yeah, man, that's the tough part. Balancing

Michael Jamin:

You mean? Being on the road?

Phil Wright:

Being on the road and just not working. And it's hard because we're working when we're not working.

Michael Jamin:

Yes.

Phil Wright:

There's no punching and punch out clock with us.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Phil Wright:

So it's tough. So getting the brain to relax and just actually sit down and watch a movie and not worry about camera angles or how did he say this line to make him funny?

Michael Jamin:

Really?

Phil Wright:

I've lost, and which is I'm trying to get back to. I've lost the concept of just being a consumer.

Michael Jamin:

Well, what's interesting though, because when you go to acting, the first thing they try to get, you do this, be in your body, but you are a dance, are in your, I mean, that's something you probably know better than other actors. How to be comfortable in your body and how not to be afraid of movement. That might look weird. You know what I'm saying? It's like you have this comfort in you, and also you're just naturally comfortable. You using a naturally comfortable person.

Phil Wright:

I'm fine with who I am, and I had to work on that to be okay with, because I'm from very the deep down south of Miami, Florida, so I didn't speak as well as I do now. I still that now my appearance, I come from a city where they put goatee, thinner mouths, pants. It was a very rough part of the city. And I'm still working on that, just continuously molding myself. So it takes time and it's a process.

Michael Jamin:

What do you think of this? So now that you're getting into acting or in the acting classes, what do you think of it? I mean, what's your,

Phil Wright:

It's so hard, bro.

Michael Jamin:

People don't realize it. You know what? I made a post the other day about how hard and people got on me for that, because laying bricks is hard. Well, yes, laying bricks is hard, but being on camera and being an actor, being good at it is hard.

Phil Wright:

It's incredibly hard. Now, I will say, I have the comfortable state of performing. I'm cool with you. Get me standing up. I got my script. Okay, good. All right, good. Let's go. I love that. I love that adrenaline rush. But the words on the page are, we're fighting. And then my identity does this. And I have a big problem with sometimes ad adlibbing

Michael Jamin:

Goes,

Phil Wright:

The writers, they're hired for a reason. Okay. Yeah. You're going to make it better.

Michael Jamin:

Well, there's truth to that. I mean, if you were a dancing in a big number with a bunch of dancers, you don't get to ad-lib. If everyone's doing, you got to do your piece.

Phil Wright:

Yeah. He would always say, if it's on the page, it was well thought out. And that's the way I want you to say it. Unless you're Leonard DiCaprio or Denzel can't do what you want, what

Michael Jamin:

Was your reason for going for ad-Libbing is you couldn't remember it. Or because

Phil Wright:

Memorizing lines are hard.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, it's hard.

Phil Wright:

Yeah, very hard. And not only that, memorizing and then attaching feeling and emotion to it. It's incredibly hard. And then doing that in different ways and facets of it. You know what I mean? And then taking direction, okay, I did it this way. Okay, Phil, can we do that on the up now? But

Michael Jamin:

Maybe being an on-air personality is more, as opposed to an actor, maybe that's more your thing.

Phil Wright:

Definitely. That's where I live, my personality,

Michael Jamin:

Right?

Phil Wright:

The acting world. The reason why I keep challenging myself in that way is because I never know what if another TV show does pop off for me, I have to be ready. I can't drop that ball. You know what I mean? And it also keeps me constantly reading. It

Michael Jamin:

Keeps

Phil Wright:

Me, and that's how I kind of see it. I go to acting class once a week. I have that. And I block out that time specifically for that, just because it's not only just for my goals and aspirations, but it's more for training and reading and understanding scripts

Michael Jamin:

And enriching yourself. Yeah. Yeah.

Phil Wright:

Myself. And I love comedy. That's why I was attracted to your page. You're naturally funny. So dude,

Michael Jamin:

None of it's easy. I know. I hope I make it look easy. I made a post the other day. It's like I got a lot of stuff I don't post, because when I watch it the next day go, this sucks. I'm not posting it. And then people are like, put it up anyway. No, I'm not going to put it up. No, I'm

Phil Wright:

Okay. So, so I have an opinion about that. So fuck. Okay, and this is quick story. I know we're moving, but I post everything,

Michael Jamin:

Everything.

Phil Wright:

Every single thing that is in my camera roll. I try to post in some way. I

Michael Jamin:

Try to. Why?

Phil Wright:

Because look, I feel like we're in a service business, and you hear this whole slogan of quality, of a quantity, this and that. And my whole notion is this, man, look, one man's trash is another man's treasure. And just hear me out.

Michael Jamin:

I'm going to listen to you

Phil Wright:

Out. One man's trash is another man's treasure. I'll give an example. My biggest YouTube video is baby shark.

Michael Jamin:

Okay?

Phil Wright:

Me in the middle of the classroom, baby shark. Guess how many views that

Michael Jamin:

Have? I don't. 10 million. I dunno.

Phil Wright:

Now, mind you, igraph for mc hammer, right? I've been on the road. I've choreographed commercials, national commercials, I've danced with card B. All of this, my top grossing video, Michael, on YouTube has a quarter of a billion

Michael Jamin:

Views. Oh my God. Wow.

Phil Wright:

And it's me standing in the middle of a play saying, baby shark,

Michael Jamin:

Isn't that weird?

Phil Wright:

Now let's go back.

Michael Jamin:

Oh my God.

Phil Wright:

As a choreographer, as a professional choreographer, I look at that and say, hell no. I'm not posting that. I would get crapped on easily. I posted that, and I say that. I tell you that story just because that put me on a different map.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I'm sure it did

Phil Wright:

Put me on a different map. And had I been so particular about that moment, had I been so judgmental and critical on myself, and try hard and try to pick the bits out of it. Yeah, I know you're going to have a hard No,

Michael Jamin:

You make a good case. No, you make a very compelling case.

Phil Wright:

Yeah. And it is a battle. It's a battle. Because we go through it all the time. We want our best material to be viewed at all times. But I'm telling you, you are in the service business. It does not matter if one person doesn't like it. I'm telling you, there are going to be people out in the middle of America in Idaho who thinks that joke is funny.

Michael Jamin:

I know

Phil Wright:

Not everyone's going to laugh, but I get it. And guess what? That might be the kid that might make a difference in your

Michael Jamin:

Career, right? Well, the thing is, because I totally see where you're coming from, but today, for things to really go viral, it has to be almost controversial. It has to be so extreme. It almost has to be. That's why hate does really well on the internet, because it gets people riled up. And I often say to myself, yes, but is that what I want to be? What I'm saying is that what I, and I know we're not really talking about that. We're talking about jokes that maybe aren't that funny. But I also have to worry about people, my colleagues, my comedy writer, friends, and I have many that follow me, some bigger than I am. Many bigger than I'm, and I don't want them to think I'm terrible at my job.

Phil Wright:

And that's the problem, though. That is the problem. Because ultimately, not all the time, but the people you least expected are the people who are going to put money in your pocket. People that you're worried about aren't the people usually put money in your pocket or give you an opportunity. So you have to take that into consideration. And yes, there's a streamline there. Don't just put up trash,

Michael Jamin:

Obviously.

Phil Wright:

But you should be a little bit more lenient with yourself and your art when it comes to posting and marketing yourself

Michael Jamin:

In the way. But Phil, you have given, I tell you've given this a lot of thought. You've given all of this a lot of thought.

Phil Wright:

It's because of the experience, though. That's only because of what I've been through. The top jobs that I've booked in my entire life sometimes aren't the most enjoyable. They're not. And guess what? Those top jobs don't even pay top dollar.

Michael Jamin:

Really. Really?

Phil Wright:

No. Obviously, okay, my TV show, yes. Yeah. But I'm talking about working for a national commercial because you also have to understand that choreographers don't have a union. Dancers have a union, but choreographers, I choreographed a commercial last month, and the dancers made more than I did.

Michael Jamin:

Really?

Phil Wright:

It's because I'm my own boss and I don't have a union to protect me.

Michael Jamin:

Tions. Do you have an agent or manager, though?

Phil Wright:

I do have an agent. I do. I work with a manager who's on a theatrical side.

Michael Jamin:

Yes. Okay, so they don't handle this part. No.

Phil Wright:

No. But you know what? Honestly, and it took me a long time to get to there, because I just hate, I don't like the middleman.

Michael Jamin:

I

Phil Wright:

Don't like people negotiating for me and telling me what I'm worth. I hate that I grind my teeth every day about it, because I just feel like there's a slew of roster of people that they're trying to satisfy.

Michael Jamin:

And

Phil Wright:

Bottom of the baro, I just got added onto their team. They have to come in. I don't like kissing ass. I don't want to bring you cookies because you,

Michael Jamin:

Well, that's another thing. A lot of people think that an agent or manager is going to make your career, and I'm kneeling. No, guys, you got to make your own career, even if you have one of them, you got to make your own career.

Phil Wright:

Right? And even in that motion, I do believe in entertainment lawyers. You do have to have,

Michael Jamin:

Yes,

Phil Wright:

Get you a good lawyer, keep the contracts and get you in good standings. But yes, I currently do have an agent, and we're happy. We're good. Everything's working. Everything's

Michael Jamin:

So interesting. So we work in different parts of the field, entertainment. And I say the same thing, agent, the manager, sorry, the lawyers worth every penny. The lawyer. I just got an email from my lawyer for a contract worth every penny

Phil Wright:

Worth, every penny. But sometimes, I don't know, man, once again, this is a challenge for me. I've been trying to get around to just trusting and letting them handle that section. Whereas I was always in control email fill Wright in seven, and I was the one who's, Hey, this is Max, not Max, this

Michael Jamin:

Is

Phil Wright:

Max. Phil is busy at the moment. What would you like to book? You know what

Michael Jamin:

I mean? Yeah, right. That way you're not the bad guy. It's smart to do that as well. Exactly. That way you're not the bad guy. Bad

Phil Wright:

Guy.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. You got to figure, I don't know, man. You're very impressive. You got it all. You're younger than me, and you've got it more figured out than me. So I feel like you're impressive.

Phil Wright:

I'm climbing up the ladder, man. I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

You're doing great. You're doing, I'm absolutely very impressed by everything you've built. And let me tell everyone where they can find you as we wrap up our, so you have a website, dance with phil.com, check, and also follow everyone. Follow him on social media. Is it the same? What is your handle? I didn't look that up.

Phil Wright:

Social media. Instagram is at Phil write, that's PHIL, Wright, W-R-I-G-H-T.

Michael Jamin:

And just go check out what he's doing. It's just very positive. You carved out a small little niche for yourself, and by giving, now you get, it's just like you're saying it's a trade. Everything's a trade. Yeah.

Phil Wright:

And I think even, I'm going to take a nice insert of this, and I'm posting up my Instagram. Oh,

Michael Jamin:

You'll

Phil Wright:

Absolutely.

Michael Jamin:

You know what though? It's funny when you mentioned mc Hammer, I actually directed him on the phone right here where I'm sitting, but it wasn't on Zoom, so I took a picture of my phone, but that's it. I go, hammer, I'm taking a picture of the phone.

Phil Wright:

He's awesome.

Michael Jamin:

He's awesome. Yeah, he was very sweet. This was

Phil Wright:

10, 15 years ago. So legendary, man. So legendary.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. No kidding. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, Phil, thank you so much. Phil Wright, everyone, go check him out. It was a real pleasure talking with you. Wonderful conversation. Alright everyone, we got more great stuff next week. Until then, just keep creating. Be like Phil,

Phil Wright:

Love it.

Michael Jamin:

So now we all know what the hell Michael Jamin is talking about. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for my free monthly webinars @michaeljamin.com/webinar. And if you found this podcast helpful or entertaining, please share it with a friend and consider leaving us a five star review on iTunes that really, really helps. For more of this, whatever the hell this is, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. And you can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane and music was composed by Anthony Rizzo. And remember, you can have excuses or you can have a creative life, but you can't have both. See you next week.

This year's Oscar nominees paint a clear picture of what the film marketplace actually looks like. Join us for our first Oscar podcast episode and learn what this year's trends mean for you as a screenwriter.

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Should I hire a script reader? Boy does this make my blood boil. Let's get into it.

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Michael & Phil discuss some of the common mistakes young staff writers make that ultimately lead to being fired: not being called back for the next season. Learn what to do and what not to do in the writer's room.

You've got a pilot you want to sell, now the hard part begins. Dive into the topic of selling a pilot and why that might not be the best strategy for young writers in 2022.

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On this week's episode, I have author Shelia Heti, book writer of Pure Color, Motherhood, Alphabetical Diaries, and many many more. We talk about how I discovered her writing and why Pure Color meant so much to me. She also explains her writing process and how she approaches a story. There is so much more.

Sheila Heti Website: https://www.sheilaheti.com/

Sheila Heti on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheila_Heti

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Sheila Heti:

That's what I was thinking.

Michael Jamin:

It was work harder.

Sheila Heti:

I was like, I got to work harder than any other writer alive.

Michael Jamin:

And what did that work look like to you?

Sheila Heti:

Just always writing and always not being satisfied and being a real critic of my work and trying to make it better and trying to be more, try to get it to sound and more interesting and figure out what my sentences were and letting myself be bad and repeat myself until I got better. And I don't think that I ever let that go. I'm not sitting here today saying, I work harder than any other writer alive. I do remember having that feeling when I was young. That's what I need to do. That's the only way

Michael Jamin:

You're listening to What the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity. I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts.

Michael Jamin:

What the hell is Michael Jamin talking about today? Well, ladies and gentlemen, I'm talking about, honestly, one of the greatest, I feel, one of the greatest writers of my generation. Yep, yep. Her name is Sheila Hedy. She's the author of I guess 11 books, including Pure Color, although it's spelled with a U, the Canadian Way, a Garden of Creatures, motherhood, how Should a Person Be? And her forthcoming book, alphabetical Diaries. And she's just an amazing talent. So she's an author, but I don't describe her this way. And by the way, I'm going to talk about Sheila for about 59 minutes, and then at the end I'll let her get a word and then I'll probably cut her off. But I have to give her a good proper introduction. She's really, really that amazing of a writer. So author isn't really the right word. She really is, in my opinion, an artist who paints with words.

And if you imagine going up to a Van Gogh painting, standing right up next to it, and then you see all these brushstrokes, and then you take a step back and you're like, okay, now I see the patterns of the brushstrokes. And you take a little step back, oh, the patterns form an image. Then another step back, you say, oh, that's a landscape. It really is like that with her writing. She has these images that she paints with words, and then they form bigger thoughts and you pull back and it's really amazing what she does and how she kind of reinvents herself with each piece. And so I'm so excited and honored she for you to join me here so I can really talk more about this with you. Thank you for coming.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, thanks. That introduction made me so happy. Thank you for saying all that.

Michael Jamin:

Lemme tell you by the way, how I first discovered you. So I have a daughter, Lola, she's 20, she's a writer, and we trade. I write something we trade. It's really lovely that we get to talk about. And so she's off at school, but she left a book behind and I'm like, all right, what's this book she left behind? Because that way I can read it and we can talk about that, have our book club. And she left Pure Color. And I was like, oh, I like the cover, so I'll take a look at it. And what I didn't realize, it was the perfect book to discover you by because it's book about among other things, about a father's relationship with his daughter. So I text her, I say, I'm reading pure color. She goes, Sheila Hedy's, one of my favorite authors. If I could write anybody, it would be her. I'm like, all right, well, I got to continue reading this. And then a couple of days later, I get to the part and I send her a text. I say, you and me would make a great leaf. And she goes, that's my favorite part. The tree. That's my favorite part.

You're also an interviewer. You've interviewed some amazing writers. Joan Didion, Margaret Atwood, big shots. And so I'm sure as an interviewer, you give a lot of thought to your first question. So I was trying to, I better give a lot of thought to my first question, and I kept coming back to the same one, which is pure color. It's such a big swing. If you were to pitch me this idea, you'd say, I'm going to write a book. It's about a father's relationship with his daughter, but it's also about a woman's unrequited love with her friend, but it's also about the soul and what it means to have a life. I'd say, I don't know, Sheila, that's kind of a big swing. I don't know about this, but you hit it out of the park, you did it. It was beautifully done. And so my first question is, you come up with an idea like this, where do you get the nerve to think that you can actually pull this off? This is really where do you get the nerve to think that, okay, I'm going to do this.

Sheila Heti:

The nerve.

Michael Jamin:

Well, it's such a big swing. It's like, how do you know you can do this? Do you know what I'm saying?

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I don't know that I could do it. So it's nice to hear. I mean, I don't think that you ever think you're going to be able to finish the book that you start, and then when you finish a book, you never think you're ever going to start a new one. That's sort of where I am right now. In that confused place. There's a part of it that always feels like, I dunno how to explain it. I mean, I don't know how to answer that question. It's a weird process. There's no process. There's no system to doing it, and then you hope you did it. You feel good and it feels done, but you dunno how you ever got there.

Michael Jamin:

And how do you know you arrived? How do you know when it's time to quit on something? And do you ever quit on something?

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. Yeah, A lot. A lot. But usually not like three or four years in, usually 60 pages in or something like that.

Michael Jamin:

60

Sheila Heti:

Pages is when you start thinking this is not working.

Michael Jamin:

Is it a gut feeling? How do you know

Sheila Heti:

Your curiosity runs out?

Michael Jamin:

Your curiosity runs out. Okay, so you get bored by it yourself?

Sheila Heti:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Is that what you're saying?

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, it's just like, that was fun. That was nice. That was a good couple of weeks. I was really excited. I really thought this was going somewhere. And then it just ends. It's like a relationship. You think, oh, this is so great, I'm going to be with this person. And then after six months you're like,

Michael Jamin:

I was kidding myself. But you're writing. I have so much I want to say, it seems like you reinvent yourself with each piece. You know what I'm saying? It's like pure color is very, very different from how should a person be, which I was like, okay, I want to read this. I'm not sure how should a person be, which is extremely different from alphabetical diaries, which is almost like an experiment. And I wonder, do you get pushback from your agent or your publisher? Do they want you to do the same thing? We know it works.

Sheila Heti:

No, I think that at this point there's no expectation of that. When I wrote my second book, there was a feeling like that's not the first one. And there was some disappointment and the publisher said, this book doesn't count as your next book. In part, I think it was so different, but I think at this point that's, I mean, I've been publishing for 20 years. That's not really what people say to me anymore.

Michael Jamin:

Really? What do they say? They say, oh good, this is fresh. And it's more from you.

Sheila Heti:

No, I mean, I guess I changed publishers a lot more than other people do. So my publisher of motherhood didn't like pure color, so they rejected it. So I found a different publisher and the publisher of Tickner, my second book didn't like how should a person be? So I found a different publisher. So I think I move around a lot for that reason.

Michael Jamin:

Is that common with authors? You have to tell me all about this author thing? No, it's not really common.

Sheila Heti:

No. Usually you have one publisher and one editor and you just stick with them for a long time. So

Michael Jamin:

It seems though you came up through the art. Alright, I have this idea of who you are from reading your books. You have, it's all very personal what you write and which makes it brave. It's brave for a couple of reasons. It's brave because you're being so vulnerable, you're putting yourself out there, but it's also brave. I feel like you're trying something new each time and that could fail. And so that to me is part of what makes your writing so exciting. But do you have any expectation when you're writing something which is so different, do you have an expectation of your reader how you want them to react?

Sheila Heti:

I mean, I want them to get to the end of the book. That's what I want. I want to draw them through, but I don't think I have a feeling like, oh, I want them to be sad on this page and I want them to be curious of this page and feel this way on this page. I just want them to be interested enough to get to the end. So how do I keep that momentum up and how some people conversation, they have long monologues, they're like a monologue, but I'm not because I'm always afraid people are going to lose interest. So I kind of feel like the same with my book. I'm always afraid that somebody's going to lose interest. So I'm always trying to keep it moving,

Michael Jamin:

But it's not an emotional reaction. I mean, your writing is very philosophical to me. When I'm reading your work, I feel like maybe this is my theory about what you have, and I'm sure it's not right, but it's that there are passages which I feel are so rich and so smart, and I have so much thought that I have to go back and read it again. So I'm wondering if that's what you're thinking. I want to write something that makes people have to read it again.

Sheila Heti:

No, I never think that because a very fast reader, and I don't reread passages and I don't read slowly. So for me, I'm always thinking that people are reading. I'm always imagining the person reading kind of fast,

Michael Jamin:

But thought. I mean some of them are really, some of your thoughts are very deep and very profound, and I'm like, I'm not sure if I understood all this. I got to read it again. I mean, don't you think? No.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, I guess so. I don't know. I don't really think about that. I don't really think about the person, the reader in that way of like, are they going to have to read this again? Is this going to be hard for them to understand? I think my language is very straightforward. Yeah. I don't know how I think about the reader. I think of myself as the reader. So I'm really writing it so that I like every sentence. I like the way it turns. I like the pictures it makes.

Michael Jamin:

But when you say I want them to get to the end, what are you hoping they'll do at the end? Is there any hope or expectation?

Sheila Heti:

Well, I think especially in pure color, the end is really important. It kind of makes the whole book makes sense. And motherhood too, and maybe less how should a person be and less alphabetical diaries. But I think in some cases, a book, I'm somebody who doesn't always read books to the end. I like getting taste of different author's minds and so on. But I think in the case of some books, you have to read it to the end to really understand the whole, so that's in the case of pure color, why I wanted people to get to the end

Michael Jamin:

Because

Sheila Heti:

It makes the beginning mean something different. If you've read.

Michael Jamin:

It does. I mean it is, and it's about processing grief. So do you outline when you come up with an idea, where do you begin?

Sheila Heti:

Well, with pure color, I thought I want to write a book about the history of art criticism. So I always start off really far away from where I end up. I always think that I want to write a book of nonfiction and I'm not a good nonfiction writer, so it always ends up being a novel. But I think I usually start off with an, well, in the case of this book, I also started off with this title that I had in my dream. The title was Critics Bayer, BARE. So I was thinking about art criticism and so on, but then I don't know, the books kind of take on their own direction. I never really understood when people said that they had characters that sort of did things that they didn't expect. But I feel like that is true sometimes of the book as a whole. It moves in a direction I didn't expect, so I couldn't outline.

Michael Jamin:

You don't outline all. And so does it require you to discover what the story is then once you find it, toss out the stuff that's not the story or

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, I basically write way too much and then just cut and try to find the story and move things in different orders and try to find the plot after. I've written a ton of stuff already,

Michael Jamin:

Because I know from reading, you come from the art world, you're an artist and I think you hang out with artists, people, so you talk about what art is, is that right or no, do not shatter what I think of now. That's not it

Sheila Heti:

Mean and relationships and all that kind of

Michael Jamin:

Stuff and relationships. Because I mean, I don't know, it seems like that's why I say you're an artist. You have these conversations even about what art is. And do you draw inspiration from paintings when you approach?

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, I'm interested in the book as art. I think more than storytelling. I'm interested in the book as sort of an experience that you're undergoing in different way from just the experience of being told a story. I don't think that I'm so interested probably in the things that a lot of other novelists are interested in, character and plot and conflict and all those things.

Michael Jamin:

Well, it's really, I've heard you say this, it's really, you're writing various forms of you and it's very personal and very intimate. But you also made the distinction in something I read where there's Sheila, the author, then there's Sheila, the character. Is that right?

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. I mean, in two of the books there's kind of a character that sort of stands in a way for me, but it never really, it doesn't feel like a direct transcription of myself or my life or my thoughts. There's always this feeling of maybe it's like how actors are, there's a part of yourself that goes into the character and there's other parts of yourself that are left out.

Michael Jamin:

And so I was going to say, is there stuff about you that you leave out, for example? I mean, how should a person be? Or alphabetical diaries, it feels like we're talking about you, right?

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. Well, how should a person be felt? A lot like a character pretty, I was thinking about Paris Hilton and Lindsay Lohan. This was like 2005, and Britney Spears and these kind of women in culture that were bad girls and doing things sort of the subject of so much attention and so narcissistic or considered Narcissistic and the Hills, which was a show that I really loved. And sort of thinking about this character in the book being a voice that was somewhere between me and those girls. So there was this, this layering on of personalities, which I'm not thinking about. What does it mean to try to be a celebrity? What does it mean to be one? To be looked at, to idolize oneself? Those are my diaries. So there wasn't a sense of a character in the same way, but because the sentences are separated from one another, I guess it's like I don't feel like I'm telling anybody anything about my life. There's no anecdote in there.

Michael Jamin:

But I see that's the thing. And we'll just talk about alphabetical diaries because you're telling with such an, let me tell people what it's, so it's basically an ordinary diary is chronological. This is what I did today and this is tomorrow, whatever. But you grouped your diary by the first letter of each sentence, which organized, and this is again, another high degree of difficulty. This could have easily been gimmicky, but it was a rethinking of what a diary is. And when I say patterns emerge, so for example, when you get to D, these was do not whatever or do this or that. So you hear, okay, so here's a person creating rules for themselves. And then an E was even though, so now they're creating rules, but creating exceptions for these rules, making allowances. And so what you have is, and was so interesting about it, many of these thoughts were contradictory.

So you're painting a picture of this person, but in one sentence, okay, maybe she's dating this guy. And the next sentence, this other guy, I'm like, well, what's going on here? Then I realize, oh, this is not chronological. And so I'm getting a complete picture of this person, which is so interesting, but, so I know who I guess know who you are, but I don't know who you are today. I know who you are as this arching thing in your life, which is so fricking interesting. And that was where the thought process going into this,

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, mean. So it's like 10 years of diaries and I put it into Excel and the a z function. So it's completely alphabetical first letter of the sentence and then the second letter and the third letter. And it was just, I mean, I guess I wanted to see exactly that. What happens if you look at yourself in that way? Do you see patterns? Do you understand yourself in a different way? Not narratively, but as a collection of themes or Yeah, exactly. That a scientific or sort of a cross section of yourself.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah,

Sheila Heti:

And it worked that way. I think with the diaries, what you do see is, oh, there are sort of these recurring thoughts and these recurring themes and these recurring ways of perceiving the world and perceiving yourself that persists over 10 years. That actually the one self, you think of yourself as this thing that's constantly changing through time and especially a diary gives you that feeling, but then when you do it alphabetical, the self looks like a really static kind of thing in way, no, I'm actually just these few little bubbles of concerns that don't change,

Michael Jamin:

That keep recurring when, by the way, when people say everything's been done before everything's been written, it's like, well, you haven't read Sheila Heady. Start reading hers. This is different. This why's so interesting about, that's why I think you're such an amazing writer, and it totally worked. Totally. You get a picture of this person and the recurring themes and recurring worries and, and even one of them, some things that struck me, there was one passage where it's like you go into a bookstore and you're like, isn't this also novels? Isn't it also unimportant? And I'm like, no, if it was, you wouldn't be doing this. So this was just a thought that you had at one point. It's not how you feel. It's how you felt at this one moment, right?

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, yeah. Literary fiction. Yeah. Like what a little tiny thing that is.

Michael Jamin:

But when people, okay, so now we have this picture of you and when you go do, let's say book signings or whatever, and people come up to you, they must have a parasocial relationship with you where they feel they know you. Your writing is so intimate. And what's your response to that?

Sheila Heti:

I think that's nice. I mean, I think that that's kind of the feeling you want people to have is it is your soul or your mind or whatever that you're trying to give people. And so if somebody feels that they know you well, in a certain sense they do. I mean, obviously not that well, they know

Michael Jamin:

What you share, but there's, okay, I don't know what kind of music you like. I've read to all this stuff, but I know your insecurities and fears, but I don't know what you think is funny. I don't know what music you like. There's stuff you held back.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, absolutely. But I think that's like, I don't know. I mean, I don't know. People aren't really very weird with me. Ed books or things, people are just pretty nice. And I never get this. I, I've rarely had interactions that feel creepy or weird or presumptuous or any of those things.

Michael Jamin:

Well, I'm not even going even that far, but they feel like they must feel like they know you certainly, but they know what you share. They know as much as you share. Right?

Sheila Heti:

These

Michael Jamin:

Kind of brave, bold decisions you make to create all this stuff. Is there a writer whose work you emulated in the beginning? Where do you begin to come up with this stuff? Was there someone who you wanted to write? Just like,

Sheila Heti:

I mean, I really loved Dostoevsky and Kafka and the heavy hitters. Yeah, I mean, I just loved all the greatest writers,

Michael Jamin:

But did you want to write like them?

Sheila Heti:

No, I mean, I think the closest I ever felt like I wanted to write a writer was, do you know Jane Bowles? BOW Elliot? She was married to Paul Bulls.

Michael Jamin:

No, to me, much of your work felt a little bit like it. Tall Cals, some of it works. Some of it was very ethereal and meditative.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, I mean, I think Jane Bowles was the only one that I really felt myself imitating her sentences. She wrote a book called Two Serious Ladies, which I still really love. That was the only time when I felt like I was falling into somebody else's cadences and rhythms and so on. And

Michael Jamin:

What happened when

Sheila Heti:

That was with my first book, the Middle Stories, and then the second book was written was so different. The second book I wrote was in such a different style that left me, but maybe there's still a way in which I still do. I think she's probably the writer that I write the most, if anyone. But I mean, she only wrote one book. So it's a very different kind of life than the one that I've had. No, I'm just always just trying to keep myself interested. So I think that I don't ever want to, I a very, I just want it to be fun for me. And so if I was to write the same book again, it wouldn't be fun. And books take five years to Write, or this diary book took more than 10 years to edit. So by the time I'm done a book, no, I'm such a different person than I was in some way when I started, even though I just said that you don't really change, but there's a way in which you get tired of thinking about the same things over,

Michael Jamin:

But then you think it would be hard to not constantly tinker with it. Isn't that part of the problem?

Sheila Heti:

I like constantly tinkering with it. That's fun.

Michael Jamin:

But then you have to let go. But how do you let go of it though?

Sheila Heti:

Well, at a certain point you start making it worse. You're like, oh, I think I'm starting to make it worse. You start to become self-conscious, and then you start to want to correct it, and then you start to want it to sort of be the person that you are today rather than the person you were five years ago. But you've got to honor the person that was five years ago that started the book. So you can't carry it on so far that you become, you've changed so much that now you're a critic of the book that's going to destroy the book.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. See, that's so interesting. That's something I think about quite a bit. Yeah. How do I just let it go? And that someone else, it's funny when you talk about the language, because that's one thing that struck me about pure color. Your sentences are written in very, they're very, it's kind of brief, very, I dunno what the best way to describe it, but it's almost terse. And to be honest, if you had told, as I'm reading this, I could have thought this was said 150 years ago, and then occasionally you say you make a reference to something modern Google, and I'm like, oh, wait a minute, this takes space today. So that was a conscious, obviously decision that you made to kind of give it a timelessness.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, I always kind of want that because I think that's my hope for a book is that it could be understood in a hundred years or 500 years, or you need Plato today, you want to write something that people could understand in a thousand years.

Michael Jamin:

But you know what I'm saying, the language, it almost felt, but your language is different though, in an alphabetical diary. Well, obviously since it's a diary, but man, so to me it's like you're not doing, like I said, you're not doing the same thing. I don't know, it could have been two different authors. That's what I'm saying. I guess it felt like two very different pieces and it was just wonderful. But when you say, so what then? Because like I said, you have these art friends, I have this whole life for you, you have these because you went to art, you studied art, and you hang out with a bunch of artists and you talk about art, and I want to know what these conversations are because we don't talk about art and TV writing. No one, we don't think we're doing art, but I feel like that's what you guys are doing. So do you talk about what the whole point of art is?

Sheila Heti:

I think I did when I was younger,

Michael Jamin:

Right? Then you grew

Sheila Heti:

Out of it when I was in my twenties. And then you kind of figure that out for yourself in some way. Well, then you have your crises and whatever, and then you got to think about it and talk about it again. But no, I think these days what I talk about with my friends is just whatever the specific project is, whatever problems you're having with a specific thing, mostly complaining, the difficulty of not being able to pull it off or feeling like you are stuck or you're never going to be able to write it. I have these three other writers that I share my work with we're meeting tomorrow. So before I got on the call with you, I just sent something off to them, and tomorrow we're just going to have read each other's things and talk about how we feel about it. But for me, I'm just like, I think what I need at this point from them is reassurance, honestly.

Michael Jamin:

Reassurance,

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. Because you're so lost in the middle and you don't know what you're communicating and if you're communicating anything, and is it worth continuing? Should it just all be thrown out? There's so much doubt

Michael Jamin:

Because it's so very humble of you. You're a master writer, and yet you make it sound like you're still a student. You know what I'm saying?

Sheila Heti:

I mean, you think, I don't know if it's the same for you, but don't you think you're always kind of a student? Because

Michael Jamin:

Whenever you start, yeah, yeah. Look, yes. When every time you're looking at that blank page, I dunno how to do any of this.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, exactly. You always feel like you're back at square one somehow.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Sheila Heti:

Although now, not exactly square one. I've been starting this new book this week, and again, it may get to 60 pages and fall away from me, but now I have a different feeling that I had when I was in my early twenties. The feeling I have now is like, oh, I did that. Oh, I've had that thought before. Oh, I've written senses in that way before. What I'm trying to do now is none of the things that I've already done. They just, and so, yeah, where is this part of myself that I haven't written from yet? So that's kind where I'm now. So it's not really starting from square one, but it's still just as hard,

Michael Jamin:

Right? Because you feel like you've said everything you had to say or done everything you wanted. Is that what it is? Or,

Sheila Heti:

I know what my sentences sound like, so I feel like, oh, I'm not surprised by that sentence. That sounds like a sentence that my, I feel like I'm, you get this rhythm that is very pleasurable to write if the sentences have a rhythm, but now I'm just like, I'm tired of that rhythm. That rhythm can only give me one kind of sentence or one kind of thought. So I'm trying to figure out what else is there inside.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I imagine that's hard for someone. Basically, you're a physician who's made a hit and another hit, and what if I don't do it again? How do I do it differently? Or how do I reinvent myself now?

Sheila Heti:

And even just what's the meaning in this for me now? With every book, there's a different phase of life you're at. And I'm 46 now, so I dunno how old you are.

Michael Jamin:

How dare you? I'm 53.

Sheila Heti:

1. Yeah, I figured you were just a few years older than me. So it's a very different age to write from because you are not hungry in the same way you were when you were 23 and you were both in houses. You have accomplished certain things. And so what's the deepest part of yourself that still needs to do this when you're 23? Every part of yourself needs to do it in this extreme way. You've got to make a life for yourself. You've got to prove to yourself, you can do it. You've got to make money, you've got to all this kind of stuff. So what's the place at 46 or 53 that you're writing from that is just as vital and urgent as that place at 23?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I think actually that's why I started changing mediums. I've kind of done this headcount thing. What else can I do?

Sheila Heti:

So the essay, the podcast? Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Well, most of the essays, the essay started the whole thing. It was like, it's funny, in your book or a couple of times, you mentioned, should I go to LA? And I'm thinking, why does she want to go to la? What was that about? What's

Sheila Heti:

That about? I've got family there. When I was a little kid, my parents used to put me on a plane. I was five years old and I'd be sent to LA and I had relatives and I would stay with them. And it was just, to me, it's such happy childhood memories and I just love Los Angeles. Whenever I go back, I think this is a place in the world besides Toronto that I'd most like to live.

Michael Jamin:

Really? So different.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. I just love it. Yeah, so I love everything. I love it.

Michael Jamin:

Oh my God, I don't what, I've been to Toronto. I had, well, then I

Sheila Heti:

Remember that LA's in America, and then I like, no, maybe not.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, good point. Good point. So there's something else. I remember what I wanted, what I want to say. You had in one book, it was like, you're lamenting. I hope I never have to teach. And now you're teaching, right?

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, just for this one year.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. What was that about that decision?

Sheila Heti:

Well, I love teaching and I wanted the money because I didn't want to have to feel like I had to rush to start a new book. So I just wanted a year where I didn't have to have that anxiety of what's my next book going to be like, I've got to start. I've got to get a certain ways in and then sell it. And I like teaching a lot, and I just felt excited about the idea, but it was supposed to be a two year position, and now I've just changed it to a one year position. It becomes too much, even one day. And teaching a week is like, there's no point to write

Michael Jamin:

Because you have to read all the whatever they write on the side. You're saying, well,

Sheila Heti:

I've got to commute two hours to get there, and then two hours home, and then, I don't know. And then your brain just sort of stays in that university space with your students for three or four days, and then you have two days where you're not with them and then you go back to school.

Michael Jamin:

So what does your life really look like? Your writing life? What is it like to be an author on a dayday basis?

Sheila Heti:

What your life is all day long? You're either writing emails or you're writing writing. Probably spend more time writing emails and doing correspondence and businessy stuff than writing. Writing, and then all the life stuff, walking the dog, doing household chores. I don't have a very regimented existence, but I just sitting in bed and being on my computer, that's sort of my

Michael Jamin:

Favorite. That's where you write on laptop. Oh my God, my back would kill me. But something else you said, because I really was turning to you for answers as I was reading it. I'm like, she's got the answers. And you said, and you're like, I don't have the answers, but no, I'm like, no, she's got the answers. And you said, art must have at one point, art must have humor. I think you said that in How should a person be? And I was like, really? That's what you guys think. There has to be humor in art.

Sheila Heti:

Oh yeah. You got to know where the funny is. Yeah, I think,

Michael Jamin:

Sure. I don't

Sheila Heti:

Understand. It's the two. I read your essay. It was very funny.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. But thank you. But I have an intention. I have an intention when I write, but I don't understand why you think there has to be humor. Alright. Why do you think there has to be humor it in art?

Sheila Heti:

Humor's such a part of life. I mean, if you don't have humor in life or art, you're missing a huge part of the picture. I mean, it's all, it's just the absurdity of being a human. It's,

Michael Jamin:

Well, see the thing as a sitcom writer, look, I'm grateful to have made a living as a sitcom writer. It's what I wanted to do, but it's not like anyone looks at what we do. It's like, oh, that's high art. They go, it's kind of mostly, people think it's kind of base. And I think, and when you think about even at the Oscars, when they're fitting the best picture, it's never a comedy. It's that the comedies are not important enough. And so that's why I had this feeling like, well, can humor be an art? Can it be, I

Sheila Heti:

Mean, I think great art always has humor in it, but it's the same thing in literature. The funny writers are not as respected as the serious ones, but I think that they're wrong. I mean, Kurt Vonnegut, I love Kurt Vonnegut. He's extremely funny, but he's never had the same status as somebody like, I dunno, Don DeLillo or whatever, because he's not serious enough. But I think it's a very, who are the people that are making that judgment? That the solemn writers that have no humor are the best writers. They're just idiots. I mean, it's not the case.

Michael Jamin:

I gave my manuscript to one publisher. I was rejected from him, and he wrote, he was very kind. He goes, oh, this book really works. I like it, but it's not high literature. And we do high literature here. And I was like, how dare you? I was like, well, I totally agree. It's not high literature. Not that I could write high literature, but I didn't set out to do. But there was still that sting of what you're doing is not important because it's funny.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. That's a stupid editor.

Michael Jamin:

Well, he got the last laugh. Wait a minute, wait a minute. But yeah, I don't know. Okay. But is humor in painting and humor in all art? I mean,

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, levity. Well, just that scent, that aspect of life. That is the laugh that is that bubbling up laughing. Yeah. I mean, I think that that's joy. Joy and humor are very closely connected. And a work of art without humor is a work of art without joy

Michael Jamin:

And

Sheila Heti:

Wants to take that in.

Michael Jamin:

Then what is art? I'm honest here. You learned this when you're 20 and I haven't learned it yet. So what is art to you and what's the difference between good art and bad art?

Sheila Heti:

It's a reflection of the human experience. It's like an expression of what it feels like to be a human, that a human is making for another human.

Michael Jamin:

Okay, so it's this interpretation of what you feel, what it means to be human, is that right?

Sheila Heti:

It's an expression of what you feel like it means to be human.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Okay. And then how do you

Sheila Heti:

That in an object?

Michael Jamin:

And then how do you know if it's good art or bad art?

Sheila Heti:

I mean, there's no consensus, right? You liked pure color, but a lot of people don't. There's just no consensus because it touched you, but somebody else thinks it's the worst book they've ever read, and that's okay. I mean, I think that that's right. We can't all speak to each other. We're not all here for all of each other.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, just because you mentioned that it was so touching this one moment, it really hit me where you explain how you felt the father, how his love for his daughter was so much that it put pressure on her not to have her life because her life was so important to him. And I thought, oh crap, I hope I'm not doing that because my feeling is no, it's just pure love. It's an expression of pure love. But from the other side, I can see that.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. Yeah. I think that that's what I was thinking about in that book. That's the sort of tragedy of

Michael Jamin:

Yes,

Sheila Heti:

Families and friendships and so on, that we want to love each other, but we can't in the way that we want to.

Michael Jamin:

Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my content, and I know you do because you're listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people like you can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michaeljamin.com. And now back to, what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about?

Michael Jamin:

It was just so beautiful to express that as two souls stuck in a leaf, where is this coming from? It felt completely appropriate, but also almost out of the blue. And that's what was so amazing about that whole section. Thanks.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. I don't even remember where that idea came to me. I don't know if you feel like this with your writing, but sometimes you remember exactly where an idea came from. You can even picture yourself being right there having it, and sometimes you almost have anesia around it,

Michael Jamin:

Really? And what about the part? There was so many lovely moments of this woman working in a lamp store, and she has to turn the lamps on every single lamp on, and it's almost like, I got to do this, but there's her counterpart who has to turn the lamps off at the end of the day, something equally horrible. It was really funny, and it was just, I don't know. Did you ever work in a lamp store?

Sheila Heti:

No. No. But there was this lamp store that I used to pass on the way to one of my first jobs, and I would look in the window, and I did eventually buy a lamp from that store with all the money I had in the world. But I never worked in a lamp store, but I was obsessed with this lamp. I really thought it was going to change my life.

Michael Jamin:

And do you still have it?

Sheila Heti:

No. It got broken in a

Michael Jamin:

Fit of

Sheila Heti:

Rage situation. Yeah, it got broken rage.

Michael Jamin:

I was stuck on a paragraph I wrote against this important list. It

Sheila Heti:

Was in the box on the floor, and somebody stepped on it. And anyway, it's sad, but whatever.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. But alright. So much of it felt like, yeah. Okay. So it was a version of you that wasn't exactly, but where was this coming from? You said you had a point you were making. I don't remember

Sheila Heti:

Where, because at some parts you remember where they came from and some parts you just

Michael Jamin:

Kind of pull out of, pull

Sheila Heti:

Out of. You don't remember how they came about?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I don't know. I always feel like when I'm writing, if there's an idea that has a strong emotional reaction, like, okay, maybe there's something there.

Sheila Heti:

A strong emotional reaction in you.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. In me. I have a terrible memory, but if I remember something, why do I remember it? There must be a reason.

Sheila Heti:

You have a terrible memory too,

Michael Jamin:

And you wouldn't know it, but I guess you document everything in your diary.

Sheila Heti:

I mean, the diary is usually not about things that happened. It's more about the feelings that I'm having in the moment that I'm writing it. I wish that my diary was more about things that happened

Michael Jamin:

Really Well, you get to decide what you put in your diary.

Sheila Heti:

I know usually when one writes a diary, it's because you're in a moment of high emotion that you need to get your feelings out.

Michael Jamin:

Do you write every day in your diary?

Sheila Heti:

No. No, no. Just when I need to. And I don't even really do it anymore now.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting. Yeah, there is. There's something else you said about it. Yeah. There's so many moments that were so interesting. Like you said at one point that the men you date don't understand you. I'm like, well, don't they read your book? I mean, why don't you just give 'em your book and didn't understand you?

Sheila Heti:

No, I mean, I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

You don't know. We'll get back to, I don't

Sheila Heti:

Even think that it's really all Yeah, like you were saying earlier, it's not really you. It's just an expression of a corner of you.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I don't know. But do you really feel that? I mean, I'm going back and forth. You'll see I contradict myself, but what you write is so to me, it feels so personal. I don't know how it cannot be you.

Sheila Heti:

I mean, I don't know. When I'm working on it, it doesn't feel like me. It just feels like writing on a page. It feels very plastic. I don't feel like it's me.

Michael Jamin:

So there's no, wow, because there's no inhibition there because it's very intimate. There's no inhibition. You don't feel to be judged. This is just a character named Sheila, by the way.

Sheila Heti:

I mean, I just don't think about it. Just I have this, that part of my brain is not awake when I'm editing or writing that people that are going to think it's me

Michael Jamin:

Or whatever. Well, that's bold. That really is bold because the notion that you're not worried about being judged, you're not worrying about expressing

Sheila Heti:

Yourself. I worry about being judged for an email that I send. That's a stupid email much more than I ever worry about a book.

Michael Jamin:

Really? Really? Yeah. Your book is permanent and it's your art.

Sheila Heti:

But I have so much control over it. I have so much. I take so much time with it. It's not spontaneous. It's really thought through. So I'm not, and it's art. It's not me. An email is me. A book is not, it's its own thing.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. How should a person be? I mean, this to me felt like this is your struggle. It was really interesting when it was a narrative struggle about a woman trying to find herself in a brief period of time. And I felt like, no, this is you. Right?

Sheila Heti:

I mean, it doesn't really feel like that. No.

Michael Jamin:

Alright. This interview's over. That's why I think when I said, you're brave, I think that's what makes you brave, is that this fearlessness of I can put it out there and I'm not really worried about it.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. I just don't care. I care about being judged as a human in the world, as a person, but not through my books, not through your I care about it and Oh, she's wearing a really stupid outfit. I care about it in all those ways that everybody does, but not via the books. Not as the books as a portal to judgment about me.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. Wow. I I don't know if you know how profound that is. To me. It really is. Yeah, because it gives you so much freedom to write then.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. I mean, but fiction is different from essays. I think with essays you do feel like it's you, but with novels you don't. Or I don't,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. But I guess, and I didn't really know this term, it's auto nonfiction, which I guess is this term. I was not familiar with

Sheila Heti:

Auto fiction. They call it

Michael Jamin:

Auto fiction. That's what I meant. Auto fiction. Yeah. And so

Sheila Heti:

I like auto nonfiction though. I think that's how it should start to be called.

Michael Jamin:

Really? Yeah. Just by my dumbest. Yeah. But when you call it auto itself, so I don't know.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, I didn't give it that term. The critics give it that term, auto fiction, but all writing is auto fiction. All writing comes from yourself. It's a really silly term, but I mean, they guess they use it for people that write characters that have their name. Which again, that's only, and how should a person be? Does the character have my name? None of the other books.

Michael Jamin:

Well, okay, but Well, the

Sheila Heti:

Diaries, obviously

Michael Jamin:

The diaries, but also I also know that pure color was taken from your life. I mean, we know that in

Sheila Heti:

A lot of

Michael Jamin:

Ways. So I also want to know about this, and I know I'm concentrating on how should person, well, on both of 'em I guess. But this play that you were commissioned to write, how does that work that you were tortured by throughout the whole book? You felt like you couldn't come up with anything good. How does that come about? So a local theater said, will you write us a play?

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, yeah.

Michael Jamin:

And it was their idea.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. Yeah. They commissioned a play for me,

Michael Jamin:

But they said, I mean, this is what we want it to be about. Or they said right about

Sheila Heti:

It was a feminist theater company, and they said it could be about anything as long as it was about women in it. And I really had the hardest time. I mean, I wrote a play, I'm sure you experienced this in Hollywood, and then there was a lot of notes. And in theater we call it dramaturgy. And I got so confused and I just couldn't make the play better from the notes. And it was just this torture, because when you're writing a book, or at least in my case, editors aren't like that. They're not giving you their notes to make the book something other than what you want it to be. But in theater, what's this character's motivation? Why does this happen here? There was just so much feedback and I just lost my sense of what I liked about it and what it was.

Michael Jamin:

And then how did you find it ultimately? You were happy with it, weren't you?

Sheila Heti:

Ultimately, I just, when it got put on a couple years after, how should a person be was published, it was just my original draft. So I never ended up editing it according to any of the notes in the end.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. So you won that battle?

Sheila Heti:

I guess so you did. It wasn't them who put it on. It was some other, some kid.

Michael Jamin:

Oh,

Sheila Heti:

I mean, he's not a kid anymore, but he seemed like a kid at the time.

Michael Jamin:

But you also do something called trampoline hall, which struck me as really fun. It seems like you're just part of this artwork. You make art. Well, I don't care what it is. Let's just do something weird and interesting until trampoline hall, which I love the premise of it's you say people deliver lectures on subjects they don't know anything about.

Sheila Heti:

Is that what it's, it's not their area of professional expertise. So they can do, oh,

Michael Jamin:

So they are experts.

Sheila Heti:

They can do research for their talk. It's just that it can't be their professional expertise.

Michael Jamin:

So they're not talking out of the rests. They're talking to about if they know No. Oh, okay.

Sheila Heti:

They do the research. Yeah. And then there's, so the talk lasts about 15 minutes, and then there's a q and a, and then So there's three of those and night, and yeah, it's been running once a month in Toronto since December, 2000 or 2001. Them. I haven't been involved in it. You them? Oh, no, no. I mean, I started it, and my friend Misha Goberman is and was the host, but after about three or four years, I left around 2005 or so. But he still keeps it going. So now I used to pick the three people every month, and I just used to, when I was in my twenties, I had crushes on people all the time. And it was fascinated by people in such a way that it was a way of having these friendships where I would go out with them and talk about what their talk was going to be about, and then I'd see them on stage.

And it was just a way of being with people. My life is not really like that anymore, where I'm coming into contact with so many people that I just have to have a show and put them on stage. I find 'em so fascinating. And the culture's changed because again, in the early two thousands, there weren't, the internet wasn't what it is. And I just felt like there's all these smart people with all these interesting things to say, and nobody's paying any attention to them. And here's a venue for them. You obviously don't need that, a barroom lecture series for people to have a voice in this culture anymore. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

Right. That's right. Now you deal with students, young people. And so what's your take then, as an artist, as you deal with people of this younger generation? What do you see?

Sheila Heti:

I don't know. I mean, I only see them through a very narrow lens. You don't show your teacher that much of your life. I see them sitting in a classroom for two and a half hours once a week. I've only done it for seven weeks.

Michael Jamin:

But you read their work or you pretend to?

Sheila Heti:

I read it. There's not that much. I mean, I don't know. You can't really generalize about a generation. Every person's different.

Michael Jamin:

One of the stories in my book is about that. It was about me trying to, being in a creative writing class, trying to impress my teacher, and just having no idea how to write, just none. And feeling complete. You're smiling. You can relate or you see it.

Sheila Heti:

Well, because I'm smiling, because yeah, that's how people feel. And it's sort of a failure of the way that creative writing is taught that makes a person feel like they can't write

Michael Jamin:

Well. Okay. So what's the first thing you tell? What's the most important thing you tell your students then maybe?

Sheila Heti:

Well, I try to show them all these examples of, so-called bad writing and stuff that's intentionally boring and that's badly put together because I just think it's a better route. You're more likely to become a good writer if you are trying to do something bad than if you're trying to do something good. If you're reading the greatest writers and you're trying to emulate them, and you're all intimidated and blocked and nervous, and you're trying to write in a style that has nothing to do with yourself.

Michael Jamin:

So then how does showing them something bad help? Do you say, go ahead and write or write. What's the point of showing them something

Sheila Heti:

Bad? I don't want 'em to try to write. Well

Michael Jamin:

Write Well, you don't, but you don't want 'em to write schlocky or poorly written stuff either.

Sheila Heti:

I'd rather have them write basic. I don't know. I just think when you're trying to impress, when you're writing to try to impress somebody, it's just you're starting off on completely the wrong foot. I want them their writing. So for example, in this class, one of the first experiments we did was I told them to go into their messages, their text messages, threads, and to copy out every single text message that they'd sent and put that in a document and make it a long sort of monologue, because that is actually what they write. That is what they're writing. You got to start from what you're actually saying and what you're actually writing, not this imaginary idea of what writing is.

Michael Jamin:

Right, right, right. That's exactly right. So there's this thought of what writing should be and what writing, how get, I guess, how did you get over that, especially when you were writing your favorite authors were the greats. How did you find the confidence to have your own voice, I guess?

Sheila Heti:

Well, when I was young, when I was a teenager, I read all the Paris Review interviews, and I just got the sense like, oh, there's no way to do it no one way. Everyone has their own way. Faulkner has his way, and Dorothy Parker has her way, and John au has his way, and there's just no consensus. And so you just have to figure out your own way. That's what they all did. I just sort of saw that's what each one of them had done.

Michael Jamin:

See, that's where I struggled with, and you're getting my therapist now and my creative writing teacher when I was starting to write this book. Because as a TV writer, my job is not to have a voice. My job is to emulate the voice of the show or the characters. And I'm a copy. I'm a mimic. That's what I do. And that's what I've been doing for 27 years. And then to write, this was an experiment to me. What would it be like to write just whatever I want to write with no notes, no one telling me what to do. And it was very scary in the beginning. And it was very, I loved David Sari. How can I do him? And so I wrote a couple of pieces. I studied him, I read all, I've studied books over and over again. He was so entertaining. He writes so beautifully. And I read it over and over again, and I wrote my first pieces, almost like I was doing him. And I felt, oh, this is good. And then I let it sit for a couple of weeks, and then I read it with fresh eyes. And this is terrible. It sounds like someone pretending to be him is terrible.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, yeah. But that's a stage that you still probably learned a bunch by doing that, maybe about structure or about something.

Michael Jamin:

No, not that I learned that I felt like I was a pretender, but my thought was, well, he's doing it. He's successful. I write and now I perform my pieces as well, which is what, and I tore a little bit, and I thought, well, if it works for him, why reinvent the wheels? He's obviously got a market. And then I realized I had to come to the conclusion that it was almost heartbreaking. I can never write like him. I can't, no matter much. I want to, it'll never happen. And then I had to let go of that, and then had to come to the more, even a larger, heartbreaking realization was like, oh, I have to write me. And who the hell is that?

Sheila Heti:

And how did you find it?

Michael Jamin:

It was a lot of just drafts after draft. And then the problem, and this is something else, but I find some of the earlier pieces are very different from the later pieces. And I've tempted to go back and change the earlier ones. But like you're saying, I'm also tempted. I feel like I can't, can't, it's time to let 'em go.

Sheila Heti:

Right. That was that person.

Michael Jamin:

But it's all in the same book, and it felt like, well, should there be any kind of, is that okay? Is it okay to feel like each one's a little different from the other? I don't know.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, are the early ones still good, even if they're different?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I think they're good. I'm not sure if anyone else would notice except for me, but I noticed

Sheila Heti:

Maybe not. Yeah, probably. Yeah. And I think it's okay if they're a little different from each other.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I don't, well, we'll find out. But that was very difficult for me to figure out how to, and I turned a lot to, and I wonder if you do this, you kind of answered a little bit. I didn't want to turn to other writers. I turned to musicians to music. Do you do that as

Sheila Heti:

Well? Which musicians?

Michael Jamin:

It was turning to musicians to find out what is art? What am I supposed to be doing here? Yeah.

Sheila Heti:

I always look to painters for that.

Michael Jamin:

So painter, is it contemporary painters or

Sheila Heti:

Contemporary or not contemporary?

Michael Jamin:

And how do you pull, what are you looking for them? Yeah. When you look at a painting, how does that help you?

Sheila Heti:

Well, how does it help you to look at musicians?

Michael Jamin:

Well, there's two things with music, and I feel like music is too, they're telling us, they get to tell a story with lyrics and with music. So if you didn't hear the lyrics, maybe you'd still get the sentiment of it. And so I feel like they have two tools where we only have one because they can set a mood just for the tune. And so I looked to them for the intimacy in their bravery. You'd look, okay, Stevie Nicks, she's singing about herself. That's all she's doing. And okay, you can do that. It just felt so vulnerable to be doing this.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

And that's why I'm shocked that you're so brave about it.

Sheila Heti:

I mean, it's the only job is to not care about yourself in relation to it, that the book matters. And you don't matter.

Michael Jamin:

Right. That's your job is to put the art first. Right.

Sheila Heti:

To not do things because worried about what people will think of you. That's the first. And I guess when I was younger, I was reading so many avant-garde writers that did that in such flamboyant ways. It just seemed to me the only Henry Miller, it just seemed to me maybe the first lesson, not even a conscious lesson, just like, oh, clearly he's not worried about what people are going to think of him or his reputation among decent people.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Right. And so you don't have that, obviously, you don't have that worry.

Sheila Heti:

No, but I don't know. A lot of decent people.

Michael Jamin:

Yes, you do. But yeah, I don't know. Again, it's what makes you, I don't know, such a fantastic writer. I mean, I want everyone to read your work because it's really fantastic. I have some questions here that I have to ask from. So my daughter, Lola, I tell her she's a way better writer than I was at her age. But the truth is, she may be a better writer than I'm now, but I don't tell her that part. But she has these questions. She put down some questions like, damn, you've got some good questions. So I can't take credit. I can't take credit for this question. Give

Sheila Heti:

Me Lowes questions.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. First of all, she says, what are your dreams for your writing, and how do you let them go while also keeping them alive? Oops. I dropped a rock.

Sheila Heti:

My dreams. You dropped a rock.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I dropped. I have magic crystals by my computer that are supposed to make my work better.

Sheila Heti:

Oh, what kind of rock is that?

Michael Jamin:

It came out of my head. You want some? Yeah. I don't know. They're magic, but they're on my computer. So what are your dreams for your writing, and how do you let them go while also keeping them alive? And I guess what she means is, I guess, ambitions at the age You were talking about that young age.

Sheila Heti:

Young. Yeah. How old is she? 20.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Sheila Heti:

When I was 20, my dream was to be the best living writer, just to be the best novelist, just to work harder than any other writer alive. That's what I was thinking. It

Michael Jamin:

Was work harder.

Sheila Heti:

I was like, I got to work harder than any other writer alive.

Michael Jamin:

That's what I was. And what did that work look like to you?

Sheila Heti:

Just always writing and always not being satisfied, and being a real critic of my work and trying to make it better, and trying to try to get it to sound more interesting and figure out what my sentences were, and letting myself be bad and repeat myself until I got better. And I don't think that I ever let that go. I am not sitting here today saying, I work harder than any other writer alive. But I do remember having that feeling when I was young. That's what I need to do. That's the only way it's going to work.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. That importance. Yeah, because

Sheila Heti:

It's just so hard. It's just so hard to write. Well, to write anything good for people.

Michael Jamin:

I think you give the perfect answer on that. I'll give her another the

Sheila Heti:

Parental answer. In any case, work hard.

Michael Jamin:

Work hard. Well, but it was really,

Sheila Heti:

It's true. I think it's true that, and I remember being her age and interviewing this older Canadian writer, Barbara Gowdy, who I really loved, and she told me, and she's terrific. She told me, I was writing for the student newspaper, and she said, it's funny, I've got my students who have talent, clear talent, and then I've got these other students who don't seem to have so much talent, but the ones who don't so much talent work really hard, and they end up doing better than the ones that have talent. And I thought, oh, I never even would've known that. I would've thought that. I didn't know that hard work meant could mean more than talent. So hopefully you have talent, and then you can also make the choice to talent

Michael Jamin:

Work. And you learned this at a young age, you're saying this

Sheila Heti:

Part? I mean, my mother was also just very strict about working hard

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Sheila Heti:

Studies and stuff.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting. Yeah. She's a delian mom. Hungarian.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Do you speak any Hungarian?

Sheila Heti:

No. Do you? No.

Michael Jamin:

No, I don't. But I do know there's a Hungarian expression that really helped me. I'll tell you what it is. So do you speak any other languages?

Sheila Heti:

No,

Michael Jamin:

No, no. That's your next task. I wrote about this in one of my stories as well. There's a Hungarian expression where it says, okay, so let me take it back. So I learned to speak Spanish as a teenager and then Italian as an adult. So each time when you learn a new language that you're not born into, there's that moment where it's like it's really hard to talk. It takes months and months, and then finally one day you open your mouth and the words just come out without thinking just like that magic. And it's turning on a light bulb. And I've had a hard time explaining to people what that feels like. But then I discovered a Hungarian expression, which said it perfectly. It says, when you learn a little language, you gain a new soul. And I thought, that's exactly what it feels like, because you're talking, you're like, who is this? I don't speak this language. Who am I? That's incredible. And you talk about soul so much in your work. I thought maybe that's something you had experienced.

Sheila Heti:

I never got that far. I mean, I studied French and I never got close to a new soul. I didn't have always translation.

Michael Jamin:

You're always translating in your head,

Sheila Heti:

Right? Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

It's just that moment, like, I don't know who I am. And then you find yourself reacting differently. And also using, if I find myself, I can't say, I don't know how to say this, so I'll say it this way, which is not how I would talk, because that's the only way I can express it. And then you're a different person. That's so neat. Yeah.

Sheila Heti:

Wonder people love learning languages.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, it really is. Anyway, your mom must know she came up with it. Okay. So let me give her another question. Question. Okay. This is a good one. Okay. How do you tow the line between explaining what you mean by your writing? For example, the entire tree portion of pure color and just letting it be, even if that means being misinterpreted or confusing people. How do you tow the line between explaining?

Sheila Heti:

Don't really explain. I think I spend very little time explaining,

Michael Jamin:

But are you worried that it might be misinterpreted you people to understand your thoughts?

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, I guess so. I mean, I think if the intention is there, if it's a clear intention when you're writing, then you're maybe not going to be misinterpreted as much as you think. And the intention is something that you can't really analyze. You can't take it apart, take a sentence apart and say where the intention was. But I do have that feeling that when writers are writing with a really strong intent, emotional or not emotional, just that it's coming from something very powerful inside, then it's less likely to be interpreted than one might fear. I don't think that I go in for much explaining.

Michael Jamin:

Well, when you share your work with a friend, do you say, Hey, do you get what I'm going for here?

Sheila Heti:

I mean, when you share your work, then people say what they're getting from it. And usually it's not that. Usually the problem I have is not that they're not getting what I don't usually feel like the problem with readers is misinterpretation. I think usually the problem is that it's not interesting. It's not compelling. It's not, rather than it's they're getting something completely different from what you intended.

Michael Jamin:

Because see, in TV writing, I often think the difference between smart writing and maybe not smart writing is not that much. It's just whether you're explaining it or not. If you don't explain it, you're making the audience work. And then they think, oh, this must be smart. I figured it out.

Sheila Heti:

Right.

Michael Jamin:

And dumb writing, you just, Hey, spell it out. But that's not something that's your concern, I guess.

Sheila Heti:

I mean, I just don't want to ever, I think I've always, always been, ever written the connective tissue that other writers put in. I have this feeling if I am not interested in writing it, it probably doesn't need to be written. And maybe that's not true, but I always don't want to feel obliged to write something just for the reader. If I don't have a need to write it myself, then I don't think it should be on the page. That's why I think I'm not so good at writing nonfiction, because nonfiction is very much about serving the reader with explanation.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Well, but there's some moments where I tend to race through moments which I shouldn't race through. So I am conscious of that's like go back and write it and make sure it lands and take, this is not a sentence. You better step it out with a paragraph or something. But that's not something that even, that's why I think you're more artful when you're writing.

Sheila Heti:

I don't know. I try to skip it. I just don't want to put something down on the page if it doesn't also have some need from myself to be written. I just don't want to write something just for the reader to just for the reader, get two parts to, I had a friend, I remember we were much younger. He was like, how do you get people out of rooms? I was like, why do you need to get them out of the room? But he felt like he had to put every step in.

Michael Jamin:

Right, right. And you'll just take a jump.

Sheila Heti:

If you don't feel like writing them leaving the room, then just, yeah. I think, yeah, it was just such a different thing that I never thought the reader doesn't need to see them leave the room. It's sort of like that with lots of things.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I agree with you. It's hard to know. I think I agree with your friend, though. It's hard to know what to put in, what to put out, how much handhold, because I don't think I really feel like when reading you, I feel like you're pulling us through a trail. You're holding us by the hand, but you're walking ahead. And then sometimes you wait for us to catch up, and then you move ahead, and then we're catching up to you, but then you'll stop and you wait for us. So I felt taken care of as a reader. That's nice. Yeah. But it turns out you weren't trying to take care of me at all. You were just writing the way you write, right?

Sheila Heti:

No, I mean, I want it to make sense. I want it to make sense. Of course. It's just like how much sense does a person need? But I'm also think that, well, everyone's going to like my books. I started taking it as a given that probably half the people, and that's okay. I'd rather have a third of the people really, or quarter of the people, or 10th of the people really love it. And then the rest not really get it. So I don't think that, I'm trying to write the kind of books

Michael Jamin:

You did in one of your pieces. You did mention that you felt compelled to write something with a little more commercial appeal at one point

Sheila Heti:

In the diary. I said

Michael Jamin:

That, yeah. Maybe might've been the diary.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. I mean, always when you're young, you're always trying to figure out, how am I going to make money? But also, you can't even, that's hard. It's hard to write something with commercial appeal. It's not as easy as it sounds.

Michael Jamin:

Well, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I guess, I don't know. To me, writing something, people

Sheila Heti:

Think, oh, I'll just write some dumb popular book. But it's like those,

Michael Jamin:

It's

Sheila Heti:

Something that people really want.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, that's true. I agree with you there. But I also feel, whatever this is next level, like I said, I don't know where you begin to think that this is going to work. And it does. You know what I'm saying? It's not like, because it's so many things, but all the pieces fit together, especially at the end. It all makes sense. So it was just lovely. Oh yeah, it was lovely. Yeah. Made me want to throw the book across the room, because I can't do this damnit, but okay. I want to answer one more question, then I'll let you go back to your life. But not until I get my answers. Let's see, what was it? Okay, this is interesting. So she writes so beautifully, she says, okay, you've answered a question as daunting as how should a person be in a whole book? In many ways, in many different ways, and explorations and explanations, you've arrived at answers not explicitly or all at once, but sewn into the whole entire book. So she asked, what was your initial instinctual answer on how a person should be? When that question first popped into your head,

Sheila Heti:

Gosh. I mean, honestly, Lola, I don't even remember. It was so long ago. That was 20 years ago that I started writing that book. I don't think that I even was thinking about, oh, what's my answer? I just really liked the way that sentence sounded, and I came up with

Michael Jamin:

Message. But you were trying to find yourself at that point.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, but that sentence also was such a weird sentence. I don't even remember. I remember feeling I had it on my wall. I wrote it down and I put it on my wall. I was thinking about it. Should this be the, I don't know. That's an important sentence for me. I didn't know it was going to be the title of the book or anything. And my friend Margo came in. I was at a writer's retreat, this place called Yado, and she came in and she's like, she visited me there. She's like, that should be the title of your book. But I remember I put it on the wall. To me, it was such a weird sentence, it just got in my head like a earworm, just like a bug.

Is this sentence even asking a question? Is this sentence even saying something I liked? And I remember I put, when I was at this writer's calling, I wasn't sure the title of the book should be, should It Be? How Should a Person Be? Should It Be The Ugly Painting Competition? I had one or two other ideas, and there was this table that writers could sort of put notes for each other on. And I put this note on sort of saying, make a tick mark with which title you think it should be. And most people chose the Ugly Painting competition. So there's this retrospective thing where, oh, that's a really good title, people say, but I think at the time, it just felt like a really weird sentence. And so I didn't really have an instinctive answer. I more just had a magnetic attraction to that sentence.

Michael Jamin:

So you weren't struggling with the notion at the time of how you should be. I felt like you were when I was reading it.

Sheila Heti:

I mean, you have to narrow things down to put them in a book. I mean, I was just lost and confused and didn't know how to be a good person, and I didn't know what choices I should be making or how anybody made choices or, yeah, it all comes together in that sentence, I guess. But I wasn't walking around as a human thinking, how should a person be for myself? I was making really, I was just feeling very discouraged and very excited. Alternately,

Michael Jamin:

Right. Oh, okay. Okay. Alright. Hard part being asked a question from a book that was so long ago, but I would tell every, no,

Sheila Heti:

But I think that's the right answer. I think that you're not really magnetized exactly by the questions that are your life questions. You're magnetized by the questions that can be translated into book questions.

Michael Jamin:

Go on. I'm almost there. I'm almost with you. I'm still struggling. But

Sheila Heti:

You're drawn to the, you have to narrow things down to put them in a book. You can't put your whole life into a book. You have to narrow it down. And so you become attracted to those symbols, like the sentence, how should a person be as a symbol? You become attracted to these symbols that can be objects in a book, but in your life, you're not living symbolically where you're just lost and you just don't know how to be. So it doesn't crystallize in life. It's just this miasma of confusion and doubt and whatever. That's what life is.

Michael Jamin:

So do you think your writing helps you make sense of your life? Or are you making sense of it first and then writing.

Sheila Heti:

Writing? Am I making sense of it first and then writing? No. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Do you understand what I'm saying or no?

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. No, I don't think so. I think you're writing to try to give structure to it, to try to give narrative, to try to give color to it or shade and, yeah, no, I don't think you don't make sense of it first and then write it out.

Michael Jamin:

And so in that way, I agree with you. And in that way, you almost invent yourself. You go, okay, this is a narrative. And now I guess it's true now.

Sheila Heti:

Well, no, no, it's not that. It's true now because you know that you invented it. So it serves a purpose for a short period of time.

Michael Jamin:

It serves a purpose, but

Sheila Heti:

You know, invented it. So it doesn't really permanently serve a purpose,

Michael Jamin:

But it does help you understand. It does help you, like I said, make a narrative of your life and that helps you understand, oh, I guess this is who I am now. This is who I am

Sheila Heti:

For those three years that you're writing three years, and then the book ends, and then you're lost again. And then you're like, now who am I going to be? What am I going to be? What is my outline?

Michael Jamin:

And then how do you come, okay, so how do you decide what your next work is going to be?

Sheila Heti:

I mean, you can make all sorts of decisions. And then we started off the conversation, then three weeks later, it was, you realized you were wrong. So it's more just like what sticks around. Again? I see you're wearing your wedding ring. You're married that it's like your partner. You probably had other people you thought you might marry or whatever, but it's just like, who ended up being your wife? You can ask that question retrospectively, but at the time you hope she's going to be your wife. Maybe you hope this other person was going to be your wife. You don't really know what it's going to be. So I guess it's the same with a book project. Retrospectively, you're like, oh, well, geez, I'm still working on that. It's been four years.

Michael Jamin:

Isn't that interesting though? Even when you talk about that, that you're, it's like how when you're talking about marrying someone, it's not even so much the person. It's the time. It's the time when it's almost like timing.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. That's probably part of it too. I always want to start a book, and then when I actually do start one, I'm like, oh, well, you just weren't ready yet. You were still attached to the last book,

Michael Jamin:

But do you feel, okay, I get this idea of what sticks is what you'll work on and has legs, but do you feel any kind of pressure? I don't know, to continue reinventing this is what you're doing. That's the pattern. I see. Oh, I'm reinventing what my writing will be.

Sheila Heti:

I don't feel pressure. I feel like excited for the curiosity. I'm curious, or I would just want, well, what's the next thing? No, it's not pressure. It's more just looking forward to something new to play with.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I get that. I understand that. To me, I would be thinking, well, if it ain't broke, I'm trying to fix it. This is, I don't know. But no, I get

Sheila Heti:

It. But that's not true because you did leave screenwriting.

Michael Jamin:

Well, I'm still kind of, who knows? When you

Sheila Heti:

Started something new Yeah. And it wasn't broke. It was just that you wanted to try something.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. It really was, what can I do without someone telling me what to do? Yeah. But did you ever have any interest in writing for screen?

Sheila Heti:

I've tried, and I just don't have, I would have to put in a lot more time than I probably have, but the couple of times I've tried to write for the screen, I just felt like it didn't, yeah. It's just not my medium. It's a very different, it's a much more mathematical, dramatic, logical kind of, I don't know. It's only halfway there because then the actors have to come. I like the fact with the book that it's the whole thing.

Michael Jamin:

It's all yours. Right. Do you watch a lot of TV or film?

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. My boyfriend and I watch something more or less every night. Oh,

Michael Jamin:

Really? What do you went to? Yeah,

Sheila Heti:

He loves movies. Right now we're watching the Boys.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, the Boys, okay. Right.

Sheila Heti:

But I think my favorite was The Leftovers,

Michael Jamin:

The Wait, I didn't see that. That Leftovers

Sheila Heti:

TV show that ran for three seasons. I thought that was an incredible work of art.

Michael Jamin:

Really? Oh, that's work for that.

Sheila Heti:

Interesting. The film was just great. But yeah, and I love Curb and Seinfeld. I mean, just this good old tv,

Michael Jamin:

Good old. Great. Wow. Sheila. Sheila Hetty, thank you so much. I don't know. This is one of the benefits of getting to do what I'm doing now, is I get to meet people like you and just learn and soak it up, because I just feel you is such an incredible talent. And so I urge everybody just to, I don't know, your newest book will be Alphabetical Diaries. That's February drop in February. But I guess for me, I'll probably read motherhood next. Is that what I should read next? Okay. She shaking Head. Okay. That's what I will. And so I urge everyone, Sheila, thank you so much. Thank you so much for joining

Michael Jamin:

Me so much for this

Michael Jamin:

Interview. Thanks for asking me. I really appreciate it. Oh, this was such a pleasure. Oh, please, everyone in my family, I was telling em, looks like the interview Sheila Hadie. And it was like a big deal. I got my questions, my daughter send me questions. Don't ruin it. Don't ruin the opportunity. Thank you again so much. Alright, everyone. More great stuff next week. Thank you so much for listening and keep writing.

Michael Jamin:

So now we all know what the hell Michael Jamin's talking about. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for my free monthly webinars @michaeljamin.com/webinar. And if you found this podcast helpful or entertaining, please share it with a friend and consider leaving us a five star review on iTunes that really, really helps. For more of this, whatever the hell this is, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. And you can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane and music was composed by Anthony Rizzo. And remember, you can have excuses or you can have a creative life, but you can't have both. See you next week.

Have you ever struggled with writer's block? Do you need your muse to guide you through the pages of your screenplay? You need to listen to this episode of Screenwriters Need To Hear This, Michael & Phil tackle these two subjects and you probably won't see their answer coming.

Show Notes

Michael's Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Michael Jamin discusses the difference between an idea and the execution of an idea, why young writers are overly obsessed with people stealing their ideas, and how to really shine as a writer.

shownotes

Michael's Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

In this episode, Michael Jamin answers listener questions posted on Michael's Social Media.

Show Notes

Michael's Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Questions pulled from - https://www.instagram.com/p/CTDtIJdpT-0/

Michael and Phil talk about different ways to break into Hollywood and most of it isn't what you'd think. Learn how Michael broke in, how Phil broke in, and the right way to think about accessing Hollywood.

Show Notes

Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Warner Brother’s Writer’s Workshop - https://televisionworkshop.warnerbros.com/writers-workshop/

Marc Maron - http://www.wtfpod.com/

Rhett & Link - https://mythical.com/

Joe Rogan - https://www.joerogan.com/

Sarah Cooper’s Netflix Show - https://www.netflix.com/title/81314070

Sarah Cooper’s CBS Pilot - https://deadline.com/2021/04/amy-york-rubin-to-direct-sarah-cooper-cindy-chupack-cbs-comedy-pilot-1234726403/

Blaire Erskine - https://www.instagram.com/blaire.erskine/?hl=en

TwirlyGirl - https://www.twirlygirlshop.com/

Michael (00:00):

Even though that experience wasn't great for me, I would still recommend the Warner Brothers Writing Program to people because it's, it's an in so great. You know, for us, it worked out well. We, we didn't have to make a third of our salary and we got to be on a great show, but for, for somebody else, it's still a better opportunity than none at all.

Michael (00:25):

All right. Welcome everyone today. We're talking about different paths to break into Hollywood, cuz you all wanna break into Hollywood, right? Yeah. That's the goal. That's the goal. So there's just so many different ways. Like people say, well, how do I get in? And there's, there's really no, obviously there's no one way. It's not like becoming a doctor where you go to Med School and that's what you, you know, eventually you become a, I guess you become a Resident, then you an Intern. And then, you know, you, you, you work your way as, as a, become a, a Physician or a Surgeon or whatever. There's no one way. And, uh, which is good, but it's a little it's must be a little frustrating too for people.

Phil (01:00):

Yeah. And I would say that this is, you know, if I go back to like 2000, I've known I wanted to be a writer since I was like 12 years old. Um, but when I go back and think about when I first started seriously studying screenwriting, that was, uh, I was trying to learn how to write a screenplay. I was learning formatting. I was using my software and using like, figuring out to do all that stuff. But the majority of my time was how do I get an agent? How do I break into Hollywood? What do I need to do to work in television or film?

Michael (01:28):

Yeah. And, and even like, thinking about like, let's see, like, let's see. When I, when I, I wanted to be a TV writer when I watched Cheers and I thought back then, this is how little I knew I was in high school. Well maybe if I start out as a grip, I can work my way up to writer. Like it doesn't even work that

Phil (01:42):

Way. You knew what a grip was. At least

Michael (01:44):

I didn't, I, I just saw that name. I didn't know what a grip did, but obviously, and it's not even, that's not even working your way up. Like people that's their job and they're happy. They don't wanna be writers that they wanna be grips. That's what they, that's what they want. So it's not like working your way up. It's not like grips below writer. It's like, that's, that's crazy. Um, but, and so, and then some people think, well, I just have to get an agent and an agent will get me work. It's like, no, the agent doesn't wanna have to work for you. The agent wants, basically wants you to do the work yourself and take 10%. That's every agent they want to, you know, they don't wanna have to hustle. They want someone who already is hustling and they can just make money from and like, well, that doesn't sound right. Well, but if you were an agent you'd want the same thing, you don't like, we all, no one wants to work hard. They want, they want something to come easy. So the agent's the same thing. The agent wants to have someone who's just on the cusp of breaking in. So there's a number of ways that people talk about. And I think one way we can talk about, uh, I think a lot of people put a lot of time and energy into our, our screenplay contests.

Phil (02:42):

Yeah. Screenplay contests, film fell, festival screenplay, contests, and, um, pitch fests are kind of the big three things that I see a lot of people in your group, as well as, you know, other writers I know, and things that were recommended ways to break in. Mm-hmm, we're doing these types of things and you know, I'm sure we're probably gonna get a lot of flack for this, from the people in these industries. If we haven't already at this point with some of the podcast content we've put out. Um, but it does not seem from a professional perspective that these are venues and avenues to get into the industry.

Michael (03:13):

Yeah. I don't want, I, I talked about, we talked about this a couple days, a couple episodes ago, so I don't want to hit on it too much, but yeah. I mean, it seems, I'll just real fast. Say like if you were, there are these festivals or pitch fest where like they'll take unknowns and let you pitch to Hollywood insiders. So just think about it from the other way around. If you were Hollywood insider and you wanted to make a, have a project put up, you had money to make a movie or a TV show, like why would you go out to a, an unknown, you just put a call out to a Hollywood agent. Hey, I want to get a show off the ground. Uh, send me some writers. Like you wouldn't go, you know, you wouldn't go to a pitch fest, you'd take, you want a professional. Why would you want an in an amateur, someone hasn't done it before.

Phil (03:53):

Now this is something I'm thinking about that I've not thought about in a while. But one of the best classes I had in film school was actually taught by my buddy rich. He was, he became my friend after. Um, but he had a class that was like the business of film and television. And he would bring in industry professionals who were working in New Mexico at the time or visiting because they were shooting a show in New Mexico. He would bring them in and we'd spend an hour and he would interview them for us. And I thought it was probably one of the most valuable things because you're hearing these people talk about what they look for. And at the end, he would give us an opportunity to pitch. If that person was a producer, if that person was a director and there were a couple times I'd pitch something and afterwards, those people would come up to me and give me their cards and say, I would love to read your script. Right, right. Now, nothing came of them. And five, six years down the road, I understand why I just wasn't ready. The script wasn't good enough to produce. Although the idea was good and enough, good enough to get them interested. The execution wasn't there.

Michael (04:54):

Yeah. It's all about the execution.

Phil (04:55):

Yeah. Yeah. So, so I definitely have seen that happen at some lower film as well, where you sit down and you sit with these industry professionals. And I think there's a lot of value in meeting those people, but it's typically those people are independent producers and independent directors and they're out trying to get their stuff made just as much as you are.

Michael (05:17):

They're hustling as much as you are. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So they're not gonna, they're not in a position to set you up. Right. Right, right. Then there are other programs that like, let's say like Warner Brothers has like, or Warner Brothers Writing Program, like that's different. Uh, and Disney has like, like fellowships and stuff like that. And those are definitely worth pursuing. And those could be a great entry way

Phil (05:37):

To, and you won you and, uh, your writing partner won the Warner Brothers.

Michael (05:39):

No, we didn't win. We, we got into, we were accepted to the Warner Brothers Writing Program.

Phil (05:44):

I call that a win person.

Michael (05:47):

But this is how it was. And this was many, many years ago and things have changed. But basically what you did back then was, uh, you get accepted, which is, which is hard. It's hard to get accepted. And then you have to pay Warner brothers. I think we paid maybe $400 each or something. I'm sure it's a lot more now. And we paid Warner brothers for the right to be accepted to this class to sign. And, and if you were to the top graduate of this class, uh, you would, they would try to place you on one of their shows. And back then Warner Brothers had a ton of sitcoms. Like they had a, they had, they just had like the Friday night block, they had so many shows that it was like, the odds were not terrible. Like they would try to place you on one of their shows. But if you, if they did, because you were graduate of the class, you would be earning the contracts that you'd earn like a third of Writer's Guild minimum. It was something like something really terrible like that. And so here only in Hollywood, do you pay to have a contract to sign a contract that gives you a third of what everyone else is getting paid and, and you're paying for this terrible contract. Like, that's crazy.

Phil (06:48):

That's fascinating. But I think that speaks to the competitiveness of this industry. Yeah. Because everyone thinks they have a good story idea. Everyone thinks they're a writer and it's so competitive you're literally paying people for opportunities to work for less money. It's insane.

Michael (07:03):

Yeah. And then we, didn't what happened was that class, you know, there, I remain friends with several people from that, from that, that, that core group of people that were maybe with 30 or 40 of us and only a handful of went on to actually be, become professional writers, everyone else kind of flamed out at one point or the other, uh, cause it is hard to break in. But, um, you know, we were, I, I do remain friends, but they, they chose a golden child. There was a golden child who's chosen pretty early the executives of the program. They, I think they decided that's the golden one. That's the one who will get work. And everyone else is like, well, but, but that, and, and so pretty early on, it was my partner and I could tell that, um, that we were not gonna be the golden people.

Michael (07:45):

And so we were not chosen when we graduated the class, they didn't try staffing us. It just so happened that our script, uh, man, our, that we had a script that was read, um, by the, by Steve Levitan who was at that time created brand new show called Just Shoot Me. And he read our script because our, his assistant read it and liked it and passed it on to him. And so he hired us. He goes, Hey, yeah, we wanna hire, I wanna hire you, uh, to be on, Just Shoot Me. And then we had to go back to, so we tell the people at Warner Brothers. Yeah. So, you know, our contracts is up and they're like, wait, well, not so fast. Now that, that Steve, Leviton's interested in you let's see if, let's see if we can get you on one of our you know, crappy TV shows and pay you a third. And then, so we basically had to bribe our way out that contract because, uh, you know, suddenly, suddenly they were interested in us, but only because someone else was interested in us, but before, before that they were not interested.

Phil (08:37):

Yeah, this is like the, the guy girl situation where the girls overlooked until someone else is interested. All of a sudden my eyes are open and I realized I never realized what was right before me this entire time. Except in this case, it's motivated by dollars.

Michael (08:49):

Yeah. Right. And so we got out of that, that, that was that made, that was history for us, like, okay, great. Now we're gonna Just Shoot Me now. We're basically set us off on our career path. But so that, but even still, like, you know, even though that experience wasn't great for me, I would still recommend the Warner Brothers Writing Program to people because it's, it's an in so great. You know, for us, it worked out well. We, we didn't have to make a third of our salary and we've got to be on a great show, but for it, for somebody else, it's still a better opportunity than none

Phil (09:17):

At all. I don't see that any different than, you know, I talked about the writers Guild foundation and the golden ticket that they have. Where you get invited to every single event, guaranteed seats. You just RSVP to say, you're gonna be there. They have your name on a seat. You show up front row and you have extra opportunity to interact and network with these people. And I met some amazing people. There was a guy from Canada who was down here, they were shooting the pilot of his show. I sat next to him at an event, talked to him. He asked for my script, he read my script. He sent me notes that were very helpful. That's that's nice. So, so I don't see any difference it's again, it's an investment in yourself. You're just is taking that opportunity. And, and I want to point out here too, because you know, there are a lot of people in your social media and I see the kind of mindset.

Phil (10:05):

"Well, I don't have any money." "I work as a PA barely get by, etc. etc," look ultimately it's about making sacrifices and sacrifice. You know, the way we define sacrifice from a theological perspective is "to make holy", like you're taking something to make what and you're to make holy holy I'm giving up something because I find this other thing more valuable. It is more sacred that's interest to me. Okay. So if you take the approach. Yeah. So if you're taking the approach of my writing career is sacred to me because it is really why I am here on this planet is to be a writer, then stop drinking Starbucks for a month. Yeah. Seven bucks a day, times 30 days. It's a lot of money, right. Even if it's only once a day, once a week, you're going, yeah. That stuff adds up. There are ways to win in the margins, as we say, in the, in the accounting world. Yeah. Like you can win in the margins and, and save up and you can get a license to Final Draft and learn how to do that. So you can be a Writer's Assistant. You can afford these Golden Ticket opportunities. The, that I think is just you approach. It is you have war chest there's funds there. And it is to be invested to help me pursue my reason for being on the planet. Right.

Michael (11:16):

Yeah. Yeah. And that, and, and so I've worked with so many inspiring people who couldn't get a break, so they made their own break and that's how they got into Hollywood. And I, I'm gonna list them because they're all incredibly successful people. The first one was Marc Maron, who he had a show IFC and my partner, Sivert and I, we, we ran that show for four years. And Marc is an interesting guy, cuz he was a, he was a comedian and he worked for a while in, in radio. And then I think he got, I dunno if he got fired or he left radio or whatever. But, um, he was basically cold. He couldn't book rooms, he was cold. And so, but he's a creative type and he had a create. And so this is back then, he, there was a thing called podcasting.

Michael (12:01):

No one knew what podcasts were and it was just a forum for him to talk into a microphone. And God knows if anyone was gonna listen, but he was gonna put on his little show and, and uh, interview people. And he's really, you know, he's good at interviewing. And uh, and that was it. But no one knew how he was gonna monetize, but he just did it because he, you know, he was putting, putting himself out there and eventually that podcast and his is one of the, one of the most successful podcasts out there. It's always in like the top five on apple. Yeah.

Phil (12:29):

He interviewed Barack Obama.

Michael (12:30):

Yeah. In his garage, in his garage President, The President

Phil (12:34):

Garage, The President of the United States came here and went to someone's garage to be on a podcast.

Michael (12:39):

Yeah. And because that podcast blew up, uh, Marc his, that reignited his comedy career and it got him a chance to get a, a TV show on IFC. That was the one we ran called Maron. And because that show kind of did really well, it got him on Glow. And then because of Glow, he gots all these other opportunities. Yeah. But it's not because he was begging Hollywood, let me in, he's like, screw it. I'm doing, I'm making something worthwhile and I will build an audience that way.

Phil (13:06):

Well, it summed up as he provided so much value people couldn't ignore it.

Michael (13:10):

Yeah. Right. And he did right. He just created on his owning, but he made it is creation good. The same, another example, um, were Rhett & Link. So re link where these two guys, we ran their show, which you worked on, uh, uh, they had a show on YouTube Red and it was a sitcom, but they're not com they're not TV writers. So they needed to have, uh, they created this show, but they needed to showrunners to actually write the episodes and kind of do all that work. And so they hired me, my partner to run their show, but who I who's written link. These are just two guys out in, I think from North Carolina, they just like, they were just two, no ones who started a YouTube channel. Um, and that was it. They did. And it, this is before YouTube was really a big thing.

Michael (13:51):

They just started putting up these shows and they, and they, these their, so they have good chemistry and they just kind of do wacky things. They would sit in a giant vat of oatmeal and do kind of like kind of all little mini contests with each other. And they had good chemistry and that show kind of blew up and became so big on YouTube that YouTube said to them, Hey, you guys are amazing. Uh, we'll give you your own TV show. And, but it wasn't like they weren't be, they didn't be YouTube. They just did their own thing. And Hollywood came to them and there's so many instances of Hollywood instead of people begging, you know, please Hollywood, let me in. They create something so amazing that Hollywood comes to them.

Phil (14:30):

Yeah. I think you could look at Joe Rogan. I think you could look at most of these people. I mean, you can split it off and it goes back to what we talked about in another podcast about "nicheing down: and finding your niche and owning that. Like, that's really how you break through these things. Those guys were, are advertisers, marketers. Yeah. And they, they leveraged that medium to make fake commercials. They do free commercials for businesses and they're so wild that's how they broke through on YouTube early on.

Michael (14:55):

Yeah. Because they were doing, no one was paying 'em to do this. No. Right. They just did it on their own. There's a woman over who I discovered at the beginning of the pandemic named Sarah Cooper. And I, I found her on, I think Twitter, but she was probably on all the platforms. And she would just, basically, she was a struggling actor, comedic actor who could not get arrested. She couldn't get anything, any kind of work. And so she'd says, screw it. And so she would basically take these speeches that Trump would make and kind of lip sync it. But wasn't, she was doing more than lip sync and she was adding, uh, her own personal touches and making it funny and doing things in the background and her funny facial expressions really plus it. So it wasn't just like standard, uh, lip syncing. She really, she put a lot of craft into it and because these things were so good, it was like, she was... You know, everyone had a noticer you, you could not watch this and think, wow. Like it was amazing her skill and her talent that she brought to it. And because of that, she, she became so big that Hollywood came her and gave her a Netflix special. And then they gave her, I think it was a show on CBS, a pilot that I didn't think I got to air, but she got all these opportunities, uh, because she just was like, screw it. I'm gonna be the master of my own domain here. I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it myself. Yeah.

Phil (16:06):

Yeah. It's seizing the opportunity. The old saying, "fortune favors the bold."

Michael (16:10):

Yeah. Creating an opportunity. And there's so many people like that. Another woman, Blaire Erskine, I think, I think that's how I pronounce her name. And I discovered her on, uh, on, uh, she would make these kind of funny, uh, videos on Twitter and they, but they were so good that that got discovered. Eventually. I think she's now a, uh, a writer on Kimel like, that's how she broke in. And she was not anyone she's like, screw it. I'm gonna do it myself. But it was good. Content was good.

Michael (16:37):

Hi guys, Michael Jamen here. I wanted to take a break from talking and talk just a little bit more. I think a lot of you guys are getting bad advice on the internet. I know this because I'm getting tagged. One guy tagged me with this. He said, "I heard from a script reader in the industry." And I was like, wait, what?

Michael (16:56):

Hold on, stop. My head blew up. I blacked out. And when I finally came to, I was like, listen, dude, there are no script readers in the industry by definition. These are people on the outside of the industry. They work part-time. They give their right arm to be in the industry. And instead they're giving you advice on what to do and you're for this. I mean, that just made me nuts, man. These people are unqualified to give my dog advice. And by the way, her script is, is coming along quite nicely. And oh, and I'm not done. Another thing when I work with TV writers who are new on, on writing staffs, a lot of these guys flame out after 13 episodes. So they get this big break. They finally get in and then they flame out because they don't know what is expected of them on the job. And that's sad because you know, it's not gonna happen again. So to fight all this, to flush all this bad stuff outta your head, I post daily tips on social media. You can find me on Instagram and TikTok and Facebook @MichaelJaminWriter. If you don't have time, two minutes a day to devote towards improving your craft guys, it's not gonna happen. Let's just be honest. So go find me, make it happen. All right. Now, back to my previous rant.

Phil (18:02):

So let's say that you're a writer and you're not like an on camera talent. You don't necessarily care to put yourself out there. That way. There might be some trepidation, you know, for me, I have, um, uh, an agent and I get auditions all the time and I have to self tape and I get just tremendous anxiety every time I have to be in front of the camera. Yeah. You know, it's just something I'm working through. And I, and I do it and I force myself to do those things because it's something I want to do. Um, but let's say I'm not, let's say that. I'm just, you know, someone who wants to rise up through a traditional route and let's say I'm a PA, right. What kinds of things do you think make a PA stand out to forge that path or create their own path?

Michael (18:41):

You know, we... we've talked... you're I think an excellent example of this, because you always say yes. When someone has a question or a problem. Yes, I will fix it. I will take care of it. No, relax, it's done already. It's already done relax. And so there are a number of instances I can think of you where, especially when it comes to tech, when it comes to something computer-related, because you would know so much about that. If a writer is having a problem with their comp, like you will show up, I I'll fix that for you. I will take care of, and you'll, I maybe you'll, you'll expand on, on that a little bit more, but, um, it's offering, what else do you offer? So even if it's not writing stuff, you offer these other skills that you have and you offer them freely. And because of that, you endear, you endear yourself to people and people wanna help you in exchange for that.

Phil (19:23):

Yeah. And I, and I think that it's an important note here, too, that when I do that, it is sincere that I just want to help. I am not doing it. It with any expectation that something is gonna come from it, right. It is that I understand that the best way for me to stick around is to be so valuable that I am invaluable. I, I, right. I, they want me around because I solve so many headaches for them.

Michael (19:46):

And you weren't charge you weren't you weren't saying, Hey, this is outside of my pay grade. I should get paid extra for this. You're like, no, I will gladly do it.

Phil (19:53):

Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, I view it this way. Like, I'm not a member of a union. There are no union rules dictating what I can and can't do. And so I have opportunity now to over serve people.

Michael (20:05):

Let me, let me jump in here, Phil, cuz a lot of people don't know how you and I met. So we we've known each other probably since maybe 2010 or so.

Phil (20:14):

10, 10. Yeah, probably 10 or 11 somewhere there.

Michael (20:15):

So you were a stranger to me and my wife has a business, an online, uh, she sells, she, she manufactures girls dresses called TwirlyGirl. And so she at the time needed to build a website. She found a company that was gonna build a website. It was kind of a custom made site. It was, we found this place that over pro almost and underdelivered and uh, and Phil was working there. And uh, maybe I don't wanna tell a story wrong, but this is how I remember it is Cynthia, my wife was really kind of distraught was like, well, we paid all this money and you're not giving us what we want. And, and you got at some point, I don't know how you got on the phone.

Phil (20:49):

You were, I can tell you how so I was in sales at that company at the time. And I kind of saw the writing on the wall that they were gonna downsize my department and I didn't want to be there. What I wanted to do was work with the guy who was teaching all the things I was selling and he ran the other department or the account management department. So I went in and applied for a position there. I got hired and they transitioned me to account management. And your account, your wife's account was the first account I was handed. And they were like, we're giving you this account, do whatever you need to, to make this person happy because the sales rep oversold them to like, to a, a far extent promised way too much. Right. And so that's how I got on the phone with Cynthia.

Michael (21:32):

And then from what I remember, we were pretty and you're like, listen, I can't, uh, and this, you were overpromised and underdelivered. I'm gonna fix this as best as I can on my own, on my own dime. That's how I remember it. I will do whatever it takes. And because I just feel bad. I wanna make this right for you.

Phil (21:51):

Yeah. It, it ultimately ended up being some nights and weekends. And you know, I remember one experience where I got a call from your wife and she was in tears because she had accidentally deleted like a fat chunk of your website. Right. And I was actually up at Sundance where I was volunteering, cuz that's how I was in the industry at the time. Right. I just needed to be involved somehow. And I come down off the mountain and I've got this voicemail from Cynthia and I call her back and she's literally in tears cuz she thinks she has just deleted half of her website. Yeah, I remember that. And I was, and I was like, I was like, I promise you, like, we're gonna figure this out. I don't know what we can do, but let me see what we can do. And so, because I took the same approach, at work too where I would go in to the engineering department and I would say, what do you need from me as a sales rep to make your job easier? And then as an account manager, what do you, what do you need me to get you so that you can be as efficient as possible? I called one of the engineers on a weekend and I said, "Hey look, this client has made this mistake. Do we have any old versions?" And he was so ingratiated to me that he got in on his time on a Saturday night at like 10 o'clock at night, found the old version of the site and restored over the weekend.

Michael (23:01):

For her. Right. And so, and that, and you were a hero and you fixed it right away because of, and so because of that, now my wife felt indebted to you because you had done this great thing, you know, and you made her stop crying in this.

Phil (23:13):

At the same point, that to be clear to everybody listening, I have no idea who Cynthia is. Right. I have never talked to Michael at this point. Right. I just know here's someone who was sold a bill of goods that they, we couldn't honor. And I needed to do anything I could to feel ethically okay about this.

Michael (23:29):

Right. And so Cynthia says over the next couple weeks or whatever, she's talking with you and you somehow the conversation turns to what you want. You wanna become a TV or a screenwriter.

Phil (23:39):

It was actually, she's like, Hey my, my husband, Michael's gonna get on while he waits, um, for his next show to start. And I was like, oh, show. She's like, oh yeah, he's gonna be running Marc Maron's new show. Right. And I was like, okay. And that's when things kind of clicked. And so we ended the call and I Googled her name and an IMDB page shows up and I was like, oh, she was tree flower on angry beavers, which I watched. And she was on Admiral monsters and you was on friends. And then I Googled you. And I was like, oh my gosh, he is a writer. And then that's, that's how I approached it was on the next call. Right?

Michael (24:13):

Because you, we owed you so much. Cynthia's like, no, oh my husband, he's happy to help you be more than happy to talk to you about TV and screenwriting and all that stuff. And because of that, because of what you had done, you're attitude, which was, let me give, give, give, now we feel indebted to you and we wanna help you back. And that's how you and I, Mel met. And that's how you ultimately broke into the business. Cause I, I wound up getting you, uh, jobs on two of the shows that I was on. Yep. Right? Yep. Yep. And that's how you got it. And it wasn't because you asked for you didn't beg me, you didn't ask me for anything you gave first and I returned. Yeah.

Phil (24:47):

And, and you know, I'm, I, I am grateful for that. Again, none of that comes from a place of you owe me because I did. Right. Right. Look what I've done for you. It's simply what can I do? And to that same point on that first show where I was a, a PA I was day playing as I've talked about on other episodes. And they ultimately brought me in to be the office PA and I did the same thing. I said, what skill sets do I have to serve the people above me? Like how can I go in this extra time? And I approach it from this perspective, again, like I'm not in a union, there's no one dictating what I can and can't do. And so ultimately I look at it as I have sold 12 hours of my day to these people. Like, I have sold my time. They own me for 12 hours. So what can I do in the next 12 hours to be so productive that they want to keep me around? And I still get my bosses from that first job from Rhett & Link. They call me five years later and they offer me things. Right. Hey, and it's like, Hey, my buddy asked me if I know someone who wants to have this job, no experience to, they're willing to train. I thought of you immediately. Right, right. That kind of stuff. Yeah.

Michael (25:52):

Doors open that way. Right.

Phil (25:53):

Yeah. And so, you know, as I thought a lot about this, and we talked about this in your, in your private group, in your course, um, recently, but there's some questions that I think of, and I would encourage anyone in this situation to go through. So what can I do to serve this person? Like whoever it is, like, whether it's, you know, Carrie Clifford, who's a writer on her on Tacoma, FD. Like she loves tuna. She absolutely loves tuna, but she's also very picky about her tuna. And so I literally kept a whiteboard list of her favorite tuna places. So whenever I'd go around to get lunch, if it was her day to decide, I would remind her which place she liked her tuna from. Right, right. Right.

Michael (26:28):

Little things. Right.

Phil (26:29):

Yeah. Like one of the writers, like these very specific smoked, um, pistachios from Whole Foods. So I would go outta my way to pick those up for him so that he had something he liked in the room. Yeah. And it's not, it's not kissing butt, but it's not sucking up it's again, how can I serve this person? Right. Yeah. Because.

Michael (26:47):

Yeah. Yeah. And that comes, that comes and, and that exactly that comes, it helps it's it's in your own best interest to, to do stuff like that. Right. But people don't think of it like that. They just don't.

Phil (26:57):

They think of it as it seems like a lot of people think of it as how I being taken advantage of,

Michael (27:02):

Or they think advantage of me, or it's also like, what can you do for me? I, I, I need you to help me, help me break into Hollywood, help me, help me, help me instead of the other way around, which is, let me help you.

Phil (27:13):

Yeah. And so, to, to answer that question, the next thing I would ask myself is what are my unique skill sets, right? What, what are my hobbies, passions, and, and what do I have? That's valuable to my chain of command, like thinking up the chain of command, whether it's, you know, I'm the writer's PA and I report to the script coordinator, how can I make the script coordinator's job easier? Mm-hmm <affirmative> how can I do this? And, and I think this mindset a really good way to think about this. I had the opportunity to speak at, uh, a business college a couple years ago. And I sat in, in the class, they just said, I did a presentation for some friends of mine, about a business that I was managing at the time. And the professor said, the best thing you can ask in an interview is how can I relieve a burden, this, a burden off of your shoulder?

Phil (27:59):

What burdens can I relieve from your shoulders? Right. And it seemed a very formal way to think about it. But if you approach everyone above you with that mindset, like, what burdens do you have? Like, how can I help carry some of the weight here? They will gladly give that to you. Yeah. Because it's, and it catches people off guard too, because it's not likely. And so here's just an example of that. So for a wrap gift for season three of Tacoma, um, we got the idea of doing a yearbook. Well, I happened to be on the yearbook staff for two years in my high school. Like, and that I graduated in 2004. Right, so this was 2002, three and four that I was on the staff. I don't remember technically how to use InDesign. I played a little bit with it since, but it came up and I was volunt-told I had to do this.

Phil (28:44):

And someone was like phone it in, just get a template offline. And there was a very low expectation of this, but what I said is if I'm gonna do this, just let me do it. Right. So I literally, we set up a photo booth. I brought my camera, I took photos of everyone on the staff. We had COVID there monitoring to make sure we were safe. I went through, I photo edited every single one of those. I built the design and the layout inside of InDesign. And I worked with, um, Cindy, our, our 2nd AD, who was taking photos of everyone, all season. And we built an actual hardbound yearbook that we gave to every member of the staff. Right. And it was something that, you know, the people who were in charge of building these gifts, like the production supervisor, the, you, the, the UPM the, uh, Production Office Coordinator, they were grateful that I went the extra mile because it took something and leveled it up. Yeah. Right. But furthermore, and I think this is another key aspect. I went and did extra work to find a place where I could go and save them money, which enabled them to give these really cool heated jackets to everybody. Right. If figure out one of those. Right. I did get one of those. We had the ability to upgrade that, to like a jacket with a heater in it, because I was able to save like three grand on the printing cost by doing this extra stuff.

Michael (29:58):

Right. Right. I didn't know that.

Phil (29:59):

Just little, little, little things that, you know, that you've, you know, acquired throughout life. They go a long way. Like I was listening to another podcast and there was another writer who said, she went in into an interview and she had done her research on IMDB. And she's like, oh, I didn't know you wrote on this show. I really liked that. And the writer's like, well, I actually didn't write on that. That's a mistake on my IMDB and writer was embarrassed. And then afterwards, she went and using her knowledge of IMDB pro fixed their listings, and then emailed them and say, Hey, I just wanna apologize for my mistake. I just wanna let you know, I took care of it for you. Right. And she got hired on that show because she was willing to go that extra mile. Yeah. And she solved a problem for her boss that wasn't even her boss yet. Yeah.

Michael (30:42):

Yeah. Isn't that great. Yeah. Yeah. People don't think like, most people don't think that way, but if you can get into that mindset, like doors will open.

Phil (30:50):

Yeah. And, and like another example, it's like little things. Like one of the Whowrunners came to me and said, Hey, I need to get 13 binders, three, three ring binders, one for every episode. And they're like, and I don't like the D ring, give me a, a full ring. I wrote down my notes. And then I went out and got them. And I, I didn't know what color he wanted. And so I came back and I said, uh, what color do you want? And he said, um, I think, I think he actually wanted a big binder at this time for just, uh, the notes. Um, later I, I got, I got a lot of binders. He really likes binders and highlighters. Yeah. But bold me, like I got these two binders and I was like, I didn't know which color he would want. I got three, I got two black and one white.

Phil (31:30):

And he came out and said, which color do you want? He said, uh, I don't know, black. And I had it ready. I pulled it out. And I already had all the separators, had everything ready and I gave it to him. And I remember he walked into the kitchen where you were, and I overheard him saying, "man, that guy is really good. Like he got it." And then you sang my praises to him. Yeah. But it like a little thing just, which is a stark difference in the previous PA who told him he couldn't have sushi when

Michael (31:53):

He wanted it. Yeah. Yeah. It's just do it with a smile and do just yeah. And all these doors open. Exactly. And so, yeah, I think it's a wonderful, that's not just a lesson for, or Hollywood. It's just a lesson for life, I think. Right.

Phil (32:06):

Yeah. And then to your point, which you talked to a lot of people about, it's like be nice to everyone because everyone knows everybody is a small town. Yeah. These things get around.

Michael (32:15):

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. All right.

Phil (32:19):

So, well, any other thoughts about like path to break into Hollywood? I know you've got a lot of content or social media. You talk about like mail room, which, you know, people accuse of being like an eighties strategy, like yeah. But still works. I know friends, who've grown through the mail room to become agents. Yeah.

Michael (32:33):

And so like, so I, right. So I post, I try to post, I think I do so far daily posts on Instagram @MichaelJaminWriter. And I post about Hollywood, had a break into Hollywood. And so I did one post about, you know, working in a mail room and an agency and how that's a great way to break in. And then I got all these like trolls, I don't know if their trolls or just jerks or whatever. There's like, man, you know, you ever hear a email dude? I was like, well, how do parcels come? When do parcels come through email? Or do they get delivered somewhere? You know? So just jerks, just trying to like, I, I don't know, like, okay, with that attitude, with that attitude, you're never gonna get anywhere in life.

Phil (33:09):

Well, you've already, you've given up. Yeah. Right. If you're always looking at the negative you've you've given up on, you're not gonna make it. Yeah. Cause you've already decided you are right.

Michael (33:18):

You've already. Exactly. And it's, it's, self-fulfilling prophecy. There's one woman. I, I had to post and she posted about how Hollywood is an awful place. And uh, people were, she was a PA I, I mentioned it was this post about how to get a job as a PA. And she's like, uh, yeah, P I was a PA don't listen, this guy, I was a PA and people were mean to me. And they were obnoxious and rude and like, listen, I don't know what show she was on. Maybe they were, uh, maybe they were mean and rude to her. Okay. So go get a job at Starbucks. That's a job. That's easier to get. You'll make the same amount of money. And I guarantee you, people will be mean and rude to you. The customers will be mean and rude to you either way it's gonna happen.

Michael (33:53):

So why don't you do it in the area that you want advance in, in Hollywood? Like, what is your problem? Like, okay. People are mean that's life, man. So what do you wanna get your goal? And someone else had another comment and she was, you know, wow. All that. I think it was a woman, all that just to be for all that work and hard effort, just to be a PA, he was like, no, it's not to become a PA it's to become a writer or a producer or a director like PA this is just a temporary job. Yeah. It's all this work for this temporary stepping stone.

Phil (34:21):

Yeah. You know, I had a really good conversation because I've been a PA for six years or so now at this point, and I'm 30 gonna be 36 this year. And I have a wife and kids and, you know, it's, it, it's a grind and it can feel a little heavy.

Michael (34:34):

But in fairness, you you've had opportunities to do other production work, but you just don't want it cuz you want to stay in the screenwriting path.

Phil (34:41):

Correct. I have turned down post-production coordinator jobs. I've, I've done, I've done some other stuff. I was a post PA on a, on a film, like I've done other things. Right. But ultimately the, the niche I've carved for myself is writer. Cuz that's what I want to do. Right. And if other doors open beyond that, after producing directing and great, but right now my purpose plan is to be a writer. Right. Right. So, um, I lost my train of thought.

Michael (35:09):

Because I Interrupted you. But the point is that we were talking about how it's just, it's just a stepping stone and you've been doing PA for a while, but it's not because you have to it's cuz you want right. So,

Phil (35:16):

So I remember now, so I kind of bro, I kind of privately one night, we're shooting super late. Um, it's uh, Friday, we're going into a "Fraturday", which means you're shooting into Saturday morning. So your Friday, Saturday blend. Um, and I was like talking to one of my bosses about, you know, yeah man, I'd really love to get that next step. I just don't know how to approach it. And they said, well, what you have to understand is that people see hard work and they see loyalty and they see effort and they reward that and she said, it's important to know that. Yeah. You're not asking for things, but there will be a time when you get an ask. And when that ask comes, make sure you ask for it. You have to put yourself out there. Yeah. But in general you get the ask because you're not asking.

Phil (35:55):

And I was like, oh, like, and, and it may not seem like it, but people reward hard workers because, and, and I think the word she said is we recognize what we have with you. And I was like, oh, that's a very kind compliment. But I think it goes back to this mindset of how can I cert and I'm by far not the only person, the production secretary on our show and the other office PA the exact same attitude to the point that our boss on our last day, when we wrapped and we were closing up the stages, she said, I would be happy to work with you any other time on any other show, if you, any of you need jobs, please let me know. Yeah. That's great. Cause, cause we all had that attitude. Yeah. And it made it easier because we were all serving each other too. Yeah. Yeah, it does. So good. We talked a lot. We got a lot of stuff in this. This was an informative episode. I think

Phil (36:56):

This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing leaving a review, and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. If you're looking to support yourself, I encourage you to consider investing in Michael's screenwriting course at MichaelJamin.com/course. I've known Michael for over a decade. And in the past seven years, I've begged him to put something together. During the global COVID-19 pandemic. Michael had time. And I have to say, I wish I'd had this course 10 years ago. As someone who has personally invested in most online courses, earned a bachelor's degree, and actively studied screenwriting for over a decade, this course has been more valuable to me than most of the effort I've put in because it focuses on something no one else teaches: story. In his course, Michael pulls back the curtain and shows you exactly what the pros do in a writer's room and that knowledge has made all the difference for me. And I know it will for you too. You can find more information at MichaelJamin.com/course for free daily screenwriting tips. Follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

In this bonus episode, Michael Jamin shares a live reading of Merry Jewish Christmas, an essay from Michael's upcoming book A Paper Orchestra.

Show Notes

Michael's Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Learn More About A Paper Orchestra - https://michaeljamin.com/story

Michael: (00:00)

Hi, it's Michael Jamin. We have a bonus podcast episode for you today. Uh, as many of you know, I'm working on a collection of personal essays called a paper orchestra, and I was recently invited to read one of them aloud at a public event called strong words. And so the story I wrote and read is called Merry Jewish Christmas. I hope you enjoy it. You're listening to screenwriters need to hear this for, with Michael Jamin

Michael: (00:27)

Story called, uh, Mary Jewish Christmas. And it's AER from my upcoming book, a paper orchestra growing up Jewish. I learned early on that Christmas was the greatest party I'd never be invited to. There were would be no Santa coming down. My chimney, no chestnuts. Roasting on an open fire, no house wrapped in twinkling lights. They made Christmas tantalizing. no wonder Joseph and Mary were camped out of the neighbor's lawn. They were hoping to get a ticket inside. Sadly, the Christmas rules were very clear. No Jews. Yeah. The best I could do was hunker down until January 1st. When baby new year would shove baby Jesus out of the way, a baby fight. That's what I was.

Michael: (01:15)

As a child, I recall going to the supermarket where a have yourself, a very Merry Christmas playing on a loudspeaker. Oh, that heartbreakingly beautiful song. My people were already predisposed to depression. Do we really need this as well? a chef with a pension for cookie-based architecture, the glorious gingerbread house, the size of a fire hydrant with its gumdrop tile, roof, and frosting frosted windows. This wasn't a mere representation of Christmas. It was Christmas itself. I wanted to live in it. if only I could shrink down to the size of a green army man and crawl inside. I'd barricade the door by licking peppermints together, sticking like cement blocks. Anyone who dared poked their head in would get a sharpened candy, came to the, a warning to any would-be intruder that this Christmas Jew was here to stay.

Michael: (02:08)

I wasn't allowed to linger as my mother was in a hurry to ingredients for our upcoming holiday dinner comic grabbed and pulled me to the Jewish culinary destination, the potato band I'm making LACAs in my mother. And she carefully hand-selected each bland lifeless rock that would roll downhill into our stomachs. somewhere along the way, my ancestors had managed to take a perfectly good breakfast. The pancake removes the delicious doughy part and replace it with an edible tube or fried and grease. And we're gonna top them with apple sauce sheet, half of the added apple sauce. What am I? 80 frosty the snowman standing on the checkout aisle. Wasn't making me any less jealous with his corn car pipe and his eyes of coal. He was scrappy and delightful. what religion wouldn't wanna claim him for our own is frosty Christian.

Michael: (03:14)

I asked my mother, are you kidding me? He probably dries a Camaro. And she went back to belt to be honest, this whole Hanukah thing needed rethinking. Part of the problem is that you couldn't hype its arrival because it never felt on the same day. The Jewish calendar is lunar. Not solar. Sometimes Hanukah would land near Christmas. Other times it came shockingly early. Hey, did you know Hanukah falls on November 30th this year, November over sake. as it stood, I'd have to admire Christmas from afar until one Eve on foggy Christmas Eve. When I managed to experience Christmas as an insider, it happened while on vacation in the Amish country, Pennsylvania. It was my father's idea to introduce us to culture instead of taking us someplace good, like Disney world we checked in at a nearby resort. That was the vacation spot in 1958 once upscale and chic, the hotel had fall into disrepair. Yes, a fire roared in the lobby, but I can only imagine it was fueled by a mountain of status and safety violations. luckily, whatever money they saved in sprinkler upgrades that might save our lives was spent on Christmas decorations. That brought wonder to my Hebrew eyes flex of silver and gold were splayed everywhere, and they had a name for it. Tin learned other words too. The aging pianist in the lobby sang of magical creatures that were half reptile and half bird called turtles. They sounded tank .

Michael: (05:06)

There was a log called a U and an a bowl. There was a knock the pleasure was insane. On Christmas morning, we awoke to find fresh snowfall on the ground. Just let the movies promised my sister and I got quickly dressed and raced downstairs to so the Christmas tree like you're supposed to and they're handing out presents to a hoard of waiting. Children was a big man himself. Jo Saint Nick, go get one urge my mother, but we're Jewish he doesn't know that he's probably drunk go before my mother nudged me. I approached just as Santa was being handed a fresh stack of presence from one of the elves who I now recognized as our bus boy from last night's dinner. I said nothing though. We were both keeping secrets. admittedly, I took pleasure receiving a present from Santa Claus and the fact that I might be depriving a deserving Christian child, just because he was late getting to the lobby.

Michael: (06:06)

Didn't bother me in the slightest . Did that make me a bad person or had I already crossed that line? When I told Santa my name is Tim, I rushed to a quiet part of the lobby to unwrap my Christmas bounty. I was certain mine contained the perfect gift. The moment before unwrapping any gift is always magical because that's when the present is at its highest potential. It could be anything you wanted it to be. I suppose the same could be said about a Jewish child out to experience Christmas for the first time. Just imagine. And now imagine my disappointment. When I discovered what lie beneath the wrapping, it was a bargain rack board game that the hotel picked up at that thrift store. It was like Santa had known all along and he knifed me right in the Jewish gut.

Michael: (06:58)

And although I don't recall the exact name of this board game for the sake of things, let's just call it abject disappointment by Parker brothers. . I had betrayed my heritage by pretending to be Christian and for what a lousy board game to this day, Christmas morning holds an unsettling stillness for me when most of the population is inside unwrapping presents and spreading good cheer. We Jews wander the city, just like chase Joseph and Mary searching for a destination that will take us in. Usually it's a Chinese restaurant. So that's exactly what Cynthia and I did with our daughters. On Christmas day, it's strange to have a restaurant almost entirely to yourself. Even if you're with someone there's a loneliness to it, you can hear it in the silence. At least that's how I felt when our Mohu vegetables arrived. We sat at the window tables, staring outside where not even a mouse was stirring and closer to the door was an older couple who had grappled with a similar feeling, but ordered the noodles instead for a moment, the woman and I made eye contact on any other day, we may have both looked away, but this was Christmas, even though we were strangers, I think we wanted to share a feeling of connection or at least acknowledge our sense of isolation.

Michael: (08:28)

She gave me a smile that said, eh, what are you gonna do? When our meal was over, I ordered a serving of moon cake. Not much just a little sweetness to help enjoy the day as I ushered my family out the door. I set it down on the women's table, Merry Jewish Christmas. I said Merry Jewish Christmas

Michael: (08:55)

To you too.

Michael: (09:01)

Hi, it's Michael. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed that story again. It's from my upcoming collection of personal essays called a paper orchestra. It's, uh, gonna be published soon and I hope you will consider joining my newsletter so that when it's you can go get it. I'm not gonna spam you. I'm not gonna sell you a bunch of stuff. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. It's just to be notified of my public events and, and things that I'm working on. So to sign up, just go to MichaelJamin.com/story, enter your email address. And again, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna sell it or trade it or do all this nasty stuff your email's safe with me. All right. Thank you so much for considering it and, uh, Merry Jewish Christmas.

Michael & Phil tackle the subject of writer's rooms, how writer's staffs are organized, and the responsibilities of individual writers at each level. Learn more about the different jobs in a TV writer's room and some interesting ways to break-in.

Michael's Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Jim Serpico, EP of Maron - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0785351/

Tom Sellitti, EP of Maron - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0783418/

Javier Grillo-Marxuach Website - http://okbjgm.weebly.com/

Netflix in Albuquerque - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-05-03/why-hollywood-is-moving-to-albuquerque

“Shit My Dad Says” Twitter Show - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1612578/

Michael: (00:00)

The next step below, that would be writer's PA and that stands for a production assistant. So the writer's PA usually, usually writers are veal. We are kept hostage in a, in a writer's room like for hours and hours and hours, you don't leave, but they bring you lunch. And when they bring you lunch, that person who is bringing you lunch is a hero because they're feeding you and you, you know, so that the writer's PAs is usually the one who goes out. On a running brings you lunch.

Michael: (00:32)

Welcome back everybody today. We're going to be talking about various creative jobs in Hollywood, and we're going to probably start, I think, with, with the writer's room. Cause there's a lot of myths that we're going to expose. I think it's a lot of people have misconceptions about how writer's rooms, um, you know, how they actually work. I fell.

Phil: (00:48)

Yeah. And, and, you know, to, to your point, I think there are a lot of people who don't even understand things like what a showrunner is or what the difference between a co-producer, producer, a story editor, all these different writer's terms. I once had a friend mentioned to me, she's a nurse. She wanted to be an actress. And she's just like, you know, when you watch a TV show and you see all the credits that they're getting that say producer, they're all just writers. And she said it like, it was condescending a little, this is like just writers, like, Okay.

Michael: (01:13)

She's right, unfortunately. Um, but yeah, so a showrunner is the boss and a TV show in a movie. Uh, the director is Boston. A TV show that the showrunner is the boss. The showrunner is the head writer. Usually the showrunners, the creator of the show, the person who sold it, but not always and often not always the case. So, um, a number of times my partner would have been showrunners and we didn't create that show where the hired hands, because we have experience and were brought on to run the writer's room and the writer's room can consist of, we've been on show, usually around eight writers, let's say, but we've been on shows where we've had as few as four writers. And when we were on King of the Hill, that was Maron. When we were on King of the Hill, uh, there were about 20, at least 20 writers it was a huge writing staff.

Michael: (02:00)

So there's, there's that. And then all the writers in the writer's room compose the writing staff, but there certainly there are different levels to, to writers. So the showrunner again is the boss, the showrunner decides what kind of stories to tell and how to tell them. And some people, I guess I can maybe I'll get to the misconceptions first. Some people think that well, so where do you get these ideas from? Does the network just tell you what stories they want to have? And no, cause there's no one at the network who knows how to do that. If they did, they'd be writers there, that's not their job. Right. They, you know, so we pitched them our ideas, but we come up with the ideas. We say, we're going to do an episode about X, blah, blah, blah. And then that works. Does that sounds good?

Michael: (02:39)

Go ahead and do it. And so we have to come up with the ideas and usually it's the writing staff that will pitch the ideas to the showrunner and the showrunner and say, okay, I like that one. Let's talk about that one. Let's turn that. Let's see if we can turn that into an episode or I like the beginning, but not the middle, you know? And so let's stretch it out. Is that that's how do we break that into a story? And another myth I heard all the time, well, years ago it was like, oh, what character? I was around. It came when I was on King of the Hill. They'd say, what character do you write for as if like every writer was responsible for one character's voice. And there are 20 of us and king of the hill. I don't know how many, there were like five characters or whatever, or maybe more there's cause there's periphery characters.

Michael: (03:16)

But so no. And I used to tell people, I used to write for the dog, the dog, obviously didn't talk or have any lines, but that's when I said, but you write for all the cat, your job is to you get an episode and you write all the characters and that episode. And that's how, that's how it works. And they're so the staff, the writing staff is composed of one or two showrunners usually. And then there's certain levels of writers. So the newest baby writer is called a staff writer. That's the person with no experience. They just broke into Hollywood. Usually, usually they're a staff writer then above them. They, they say they work for a year. They get a promotion. Now they're called a Story Editor. And you'll see that at the end of the credits off. And you see the story that, or it gets a credit.

Phil: (03:57)

Let me ask this question, because this is something that came up on another podcast. We did, you made a reference that all of these titles that you're probably going to go through right here, that the next year. So are you a staff writer, your first year writing and then you bump a story editor usually, or you're so bad that you could stay staff writer. Is that a chance or do you just lose your job at that point?

Michael: (04:20)

Sometimes? Yeah. You could lose your job if you're no good. Sometimes you'll be a staff writer on the on one year and then the show gets canceled and then you get another job in a different show and they make you repeat your staff writer. They say, yeah, you're not getting the bump because we don't have a budget.

Phil: (04:34)

The bump budget-based. I imagine usually.

Michael: (04:37)

Yeah. I don't know if too many people who had a repeat staff it's like repeating your first year of college, I guess. Right.

Phil: (04:45)

I got held back in preschool by the way. So

Michael: (04:47)

Yeah. Well, I can tell it's obvious when I talk to you.

Phil: (04:49)

Yeah. The adults don't set your kids in preschool in the middle of the year, guys. They just look stupid when all their friends move on.

Michael: (04:55)

For the rest of the let's talk about it. Um, so then after a story editor to become Executive Story Editor back in the sixties, the Executive Story Editor, or was they, that was the boss I'm executive story editor mean that was basically being called the showrunner, but these titles have changed over the years. And so executive story at a restorator is at one point it was like the most important person. And now it's one of the least important people on the staff. Um, I remember when I, well, I remember when I had, I had a writing teacher and he was, he like, he wrote on, uh, uh, Get Smart and Andy Griffith Show and all those great shows and Twilight Zone, the original Twilight Zone and all that. And he used to say that you just need to, you got to impress the story. It, the story editors that want to makes all the decisions. And, and this is back in like, you know, the nineties, I was like my old man, what are you talking about? The Story Editors at title has long since changed.

Phil: (05:47)

Uh, so I was going to ask, so my understanding here is that this changed because cause you're about to get into the producer titles, right? Yeah. So my understanding is that this changed because the story, the writing credit positions pay specific portions of their money into the WGA funds, but the producorial fees you get do not.

Michael: (06:10)

Yeah separately.

Phil: (06:10)

And the benefit to the, to the network and the studios is they don't have to match percentages of those funds, to the Writers Guild stuff .

Michael: (06:19)

To your health and pension. Right. It's separate. Exactly.

Phil: (06:23)

Where it changes, like how do we get these people and entice them to do this thing with us without having all the other expensive paying percentages of their, their fees?

Michael: (06:31)

Yeah. We'll give them a fancy title. Yeah. That'll tide them over there. Stupid. Um, so yeah, so there's executives. So is it okay to repeat Staff Writer, Story Editor, Executive Story Editor, then you get Co-Producer and then you become Producer and then you're like, wow, Producer, it's really just another level for a writer. Then you get, uh, after Producer becomes Supervising Producer, then Co-Executive Producer, which often means the number two, the number two writer, the like the number two in command and then Executive Producer. And so in sometimes there's also another title of Consulting Producer, which is just a fancy way of paying you even less money. Got it. So, but those are all just writers and there's very, you know, the producer aspect of those jobs are very limited. So when you're executive producer, you have, you do have many other Producer titles, like your responsibilities, you'll be responsible for casting or post-production... Supervising post production, or maybe editing stuff like that. The Co-Executive Producer doesn't often do those things, but is capable of doing those things.

Phil: (07:33)

And that's what you currently are on the show.

Michael: (07:36)

On Tacoma FD I'm a Co-Executive Producer. Right. But, but you know, in the past I've been Executive Producer on other shows. So, uh, you know, the difference in money there's a lot its not that much. Well, the Co-Exec... Co-Executive Producer that gets a good salary without all the stress of being executive producer. It's a good job to it's really the best job to have is a co-executive producer because he made good money, but you don't have all the stress of the boss.

Phil: (07:59)

Got it. So that's what to aspire to is not be the showrunner, but just be a co you'd be.

Michael: (08:03)

I remember years ago when I was, you know, thinking before I became a Showrunner, I was like, man, if I were a show runner, I'd do things different, do things better. And then, you know, cause you always think your bosses know what you're doing, they're they're doing. And then, then you become the boss and you're like, Ugh, I just wish I was a Co-Executive Producer.

Phil: (08:21)

Yeah. You always wish you had the less responsibility, the more, you know, the more, you know, you don't know. Right? Yeah.

Michael: (08:26)

So, but then, you know, those jobs basically at my level, like those, the two jobs I get, you need to be the boss or the second in command. So there's, I have to take whatever, whatever comes.

Phil: (08:36)

Now there is another executive producer on the show and that's typically the, basically the guy in charge of, or the woman, the person in charge of making sure that the show is happening from an actual producorial perspective. Right? So not always. So the production. So for example, to come at di we had a production company running things and the owner of that company had the title of EP as well. And that shows up in the credits and that person can be not a writer.

Michael: (09:03)

And I believe, I believe one of the, uh, managers, David Miner, I believe he's also executive to

Phil: (09:09)

Both of, both of the guys managers are on our show. They have EP credits because they brought the show to the network and said, we think you should buy this show.

Michael: (09:19)

Yeah. They help make it. They help sell it. They help make it possible. Yeah. But on other shows, I've worked on this. There's really only there aren't too many co uh, Executive Producers is their Showrunner and maybe no other executive producers, or maybe there's an actor who is so powerful to help got the show me, they might be Executive Producer or maybe often if the show is, is sold through a pod, you have a production company, then they'll get, you know, like you're saying, they'll have a Executive Producer title. Uh, yeah. So some actually that's not really no. And I say that now that I think about it. Yeah. I've always, I've been on other shows where there, there are other executive not they're called non-writing Executive Producers. So when I was on Maron, for example, uh, Jim Serpico, Tom Silletti, they were non-writing Executive Producers. They helps sell the show and their creative involvement in the show. It really depends on what their, what they have time for. Sometimes they're very involved in, sometimes they're not very involved at all.

Phil: (10:12)

Yeah. Okay. So that's an interesting note. I think, so those people have the same way now from an Office PA perspective. So during production, we still saved those people parking spots, and we understood who they were. And we made sure that they were included on every single email, every single notice that went out, anything that involved creative decisions, they were invited to all meetings. And it was always an understanding they could show up at any time, but also an expectation that they probably weren't going to show up. And so it's an interesting thing like, or, you know, one season of a show, I worked on the, one of these non writing Executive Producers showed up and our Office Production Coordinator didn't know who they were and it, but the secretary did luckily. So they were able to save that situation or it probably would have been a really, you know, egg on the face situation.

Michael: (11:00)

Yeah. Because sometimes they don't show up. Right. The homes that parking spot is empty all year. Yeah. But you know, sometimes they do show up cause they, yeah. So those are all, those are all creative jobs. So when you see at the front of a TV show, all those producers, like what are all these producers? Most of them are writers. And then some producers, there was always a couple of, there's a Line Producer, he'll get he, or she will get a producer title. And they're in charge of kind of, uh, they're in charge of the, the money and the budget. If, for example, the show runner says, Hey, I want to shoot a show, um, in a submarine. And like, I bet, you know, how do you make that happen? Well, the line producer, their job is to figure out how to make that happen to either rent a submarine or get a soundstage that looks like a submarine or tell you what, that's just too expensive. You can have to shoot it in a rowboat.

Phil: (11:43)

Right. Right. Yeah. And then, so there's a Line Producer and then a Unit Production Manager or UPM. Yeah. But there are different jobs or they are, or they're at the same job because I see it both ways I've seen it separated or they're the same person does both. Yeah,

Michael: (11:57)

Yeah. Yeah. And I, yeah, that's exactly right. And I don't, I don't really know what the difference is. Job responses, uh, job responsibilities are between the two, because on the shows that I've worked on, they've mostly been the same person. So.

Phil: (12:09)

Yeah. It's, I think it's just a level of authority and responsibility. So UPM is typically making the decisions to make sure everything happens in the line producer. My understanding is basically in charge of the budget and making sure you're not blowing the budget every episode and you can get to the end of the road and they're like your accountant almost, I guess you could say as the showrunner. Right.

Michael: (12:27)

Um, but we still have accountants.

Phil: (12:28)

We all see cameras like a CPA. Like they're like the CPA who says, we're a business manager, Hey, you need to cut your expenses here because yeah. This thing coming down the road.

Michael: (12:36)

Yeah. Often they'll negotiate, they'll, there'll be dealing with the unions and they, they, uh, they make sure that the show, they make sure that the physical production of the show actually happens. Yeah.

Phil: (12:46)

So, so, so this brings up what we're discussing here might be considered "above the line". Yeah. Goes right. Yeah. And, um, you know, we recently had an interesting conversation with someone who did not like the title above the line and also

Michael: (12:59)

A derogatory

Phil: (13:01)

It's like, you know, the union negotiates those things. So your union is responsible for earning you those credits and signing what goes where yeah,

Michael: (13:10)

I think it's, I think actually it's just like where you appear on the call sheet. It's like, are you above this line or below this line? That was my understanding. It's like, and it's just, it's just the line, relax everybody you're on. It doesn't mean, you know, you deserve to die, you know? Right. It's just an, it's a, basically an accounting formality. Yeah. Right.

Phil: (13:29)

Yeah. Okay. But, but you do not have control over who does that? Just to clarify, because this person seemed to think that you, in your role as an Executive Producer, Showrunner have the ability to dictate through your use of language who gets called what? So people aren't offended.

Michael: (13:44)

Yeah, yeah. No, I, I walked into, you know, it's so strange. It's like I walk into these terminologies, these, these, the terminologies were decided before me. And, uh, and somebody has someone thought that they were just very offended by that. And I'm perpetuating some kind of, I don't know, egregious, uh, you know, offense in Hollywood.

Phil: (14:01)

And not to get like super into the weeds on this subject. But I do know, um, this season on Tacoma FD, either production company did require us to use gender neutral terminology for things. So this is like a term for like the Best Boy or Best Boy Grip or Best Boy Lighting. And now that's like Key Lighting Person and it's like a term, um, different things instead of form. And it was for a person. And so I understand those things, but when we're talking about literally anyone below the line is garbage and trash and we stop and use it, that's not exactly what's going on in this space.

Michael: (14:31)

No, those people are kind of important because they're writers the above the line. People like maybe we were the dreamers that, Hey, what if, and the other people, the ones who are doing it, so you can't just have dreamers on set. They don't that nothing will get done.

Phil: (14:43)

Yeah. Right. It's like, uh, I, I did hear an example on another show I worked on where they're like, they want us to have 50 people with the exact same haircut sitting in a restaurant. It's like, you don't understand the complexity of, of casting that the complexity of finding those people, the hair and makeup, the costs for extra pay. Like we got you 10 of those people not 50. Right, right. Yeah. So, so those are all the, so those are all the jobs that are just the ones that you've talked about. And those that basically to get into Hollywood, you have to start as a Staff Writer.

Michael: (15:16)

Hi guys, it's Michael Jamin. I wanted to take a break from talking and talk just a little bit more. I think a lot of you, people are getting bad advice on the internet. Many, you want to break into the industry as writers or directors or actors, and some of you are paying for this advice on the internet. It's just bad. And as a working TV writer and showrunner, this burns my butt. So my goal is to flush a lot of this bad stuff out of your head and replace it with stuff that's actually going to help you. So I post daily tips on social media, go follow me @MichaelJaminWriter. You can find me on Instagram and Facebook and TikToK. And let's be honest, if you don't have time, like just two minutes a day towards improving your craft, it's not going to happen. So go make it happen for you @MichaelJaminWriter. Okay. Now back to my previous rant.

Michael: (16:02)

And yes, then how do you start as a staff writer? There are entry-level jobs. So there's no assistant writers. People often say, well, I want to be an assistant writer on your show. It's like that doesn't exist. There are Writers Assistance. And those are the people who will sit in the writer's room and they sit at the keyboard and they literally, they usually either take notes or they type, as we, as the words go up on the, on a monitor, we're watching a screen. And so they actually type the script as we pitch lines. And so that's, um, it's, it's a kind of a high pressure job because you have to know the pro word processing program, like the back of your hand, but also you have to be a good speller because if you are not, people will make fun of you. And you know, everyone's staring at you while you do your job and like busting your balls.

Michael: (16:46)

Uh, you know, so it's a, it's a high pressure job. You have to have a good sense of humor about it. And so, but it's a great job to have because once you're in the writer's room and like, you will learn more as a Writer's Assistant than you would the tenures in film school because you're watching professional writers do their craft. So it's a wonderful, it's a great learning experience. And how do you get a Writer's Assistant job? Well, the next step below that would be Writers PA and essentially a production assistant. So the Writer's PA usually, usually writers are veal. We are kept hostage in a, in a writer's room like for hours and hours and hours. And you don't leave, but they bring you lunch. And when they bring you lunch, that person who's bringing you lunch is a hero because they're feeding you and you, you know, so that the Writer's PA is usually the one who goes out on a run and brings you lunch. This is before COVID of course, I don't know what goes, no one brings me food anymore. No one gives within six feet of me.

Phil: (17:39)

That's right. That's not in your family. Right.

Michael: (17:43)

Keep an arm, social distance kids. Um, so that's, Writer's PA and then kind of not, I wouldn't say below it, but Jason too, it would be regular PA or Set PA, which that PA works on the set. Another job would be Office PA. And that PA you know, the set PA might run errands, or it might block off the set when like, you know, when they're shooting an episode, the set PA will be on the perimeter. And you had, I'm telling you, you had this job for a while. And they're the ones who are, let's say you're shooting on New York City street. They're on the perimeter stopping traffic and people, you can't walk here. We're shooting.

Phil: (18:14)

Yeah, no. And let me point out here, the, our Locations Guy, when I said that I was locking down traffic interjecting and said, you are not allowed to do that. That is illegal. The police lock down traffic. You were there to wrangle pedestrians.

Michael: (18:29)

Whoa,

Phil: (18:29)

Interesting. Right. Because we do not have the legal authority to stop traffic, but on a closed set, that was my first day of PA work was literally standing in the hot sun out in the middle of Southern California telling cars when to drive into the scene. Yeah. But it was a closed set. And I was, I was literally doing that. And you

Michael: (18:50)

Had, you had your piece in a headsets

Phil: (18:54)

[inaudible] or there, they literally call it background and you tell them to move. Yeah. Right. You

Michael: (18:58)

Tell them that would be a set. That's one of the responsibilities of a set PA.

Phil: (19:02)

Yeah. They're responsible for getting information to everyone. Um, locking down, set for a sound. It's another very common thing where you literally post up in a doorway and you hold stop people from coming in and out because they're shooting that direction and you don't want to walk through set, like one of the first days of shooting of season two of Tacoma FD I walked onto a set and I looked right at the set PA and she didn't say anything. So I walked toward her and ended up walking right through the shot, like, yeah. And they showed it to me. They showed me a post me Sasquatching and through the background of the firehouse.

Michael: (19:36)

And that's the job of the PA supposed to stop. You I've walked on sets before to have my own show where I was Executive Producer. And I guess some PA was too nervous to tell me not to walk on set. And I walk into the shot and I ruined the shot. And I'm like, dude, you got to tell me not to walk into the shot. It's okay. You can tell, don't be afraid of me. Tell me I'm not, not tell me not to ruin the shot.

Phil: (19:53)

Didn't you tell me that there was a, uh, you had to spend like a significant amount of money and post cutting a PA out of the background and standing behind a tree or something.

Michael: (20:01)

Um, I'm sure that, yeah. I'm not sure if the PA, but I remember sometimes you have to do that we're or you cut a reflection. Sometimes you see a PA or something, or somebody is a reflection in a window. You have to take that out. Yeah. Yeah.

Phil: (20:14)

Um, so, so I've had most of these PA jobs, so that's a Set PA and then Office PA, you're the one making copies. You're the one making the signs. You're laminating things and go, go runs. You're coming on, runs and picking up stuff. You're going to Home Depot to buy specific daylight, luminescent, light bulbs for the Makeup Department, because they need specific lights in the trailer. You're getting water, you're moving things around set. You're going out on a run to Burbank to pick up Audio Equipment for the audio team. Cause they always need something. Yeah. You know,

Michael: (20:48)

It's interest. Cause I posted a little bit about that on social media. I do like these little clips and uh, and, and someone said, you have to, you, you know, I said, it's an entry-level job. It's not too hard to get. And someone said, you don't know what you're talking about. You have to have a Harvard Degree. You have to degree a degree from Harvard or an MBA. And like you already your mind, like, I can tell you need a car.

Phil: (21:07)

That's it. You need a car and you need to breathe. Right.

Michael: (21:11)

The pulse, if you, if you're dead, you're going to have, you're going to struggle. But if you have a pulse, you be okay. It's like, I don't really care. I don't need to know that you have a degree from Harvard from what do I care? I want to know. Can you go on a run?

Phil: (21:23)

Do you think that's people who just assume it's all an old boys club and you ha it's about who, you know, and it's not about like, like, oh, Harvard Alumni will hire Harvard alumni. Is it that kind of thing? Or do you think they actually think you have to be like a Rhode Scholar to be a PA?

Michael: (21:38)

No, I think there's, you know, breaking into Hollywood is hard and it's, you know, that first job, the hardest one is that first job to get in. And so you have to hustle and you really have to like, you know, send out flight. You kind of have to really be in contact with people. And you've got a nudge way in and I, and it takes a lot of work. And I think people would much rather say, well, they're not hiring people like me. Cause you know, there's an excuse as opposed to, that's not true at all. It's like, you just have to do your end to the part. You have to hustle to get the job. Yeah. You know, it's just, there's so many excuses. And like, I always say like, you can, you can have results or you can have excuses, uh, or you can have excuses or you can have results, but you can't have both. Right. And people like to have excuses. It just makes them feel better for not trying or not trying hard enough.

Phil: (22:22)

Now, now I've been on a other side of things. I think my first PA job, um, you gave my resume to a show that you were running and I didn't get that job. And I didn't get that job because your writing partner also referred someone and that person had experience. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so I didn't get that job, but because I did so well in the interview when they needed a day player to come out and just lock down set for a day, they called me and said, Hey, it's one day job. You want to come up and sit? Absolutely. What time? Where should I be? I showed up early. I was there. I ran around set the whole day. And it just happened to be that that day, the Office PA was called back in to his Fox show and he had to leave. And so the UPM who was on set with me, watching me work said, you should consider this guy. He seems good. And I got offered a full-time position as the office PA because of that. And so it was that

Michael: (23:16)

Is that luck. Was that, was that, did you get lucky or did you make your own luck?

Phil: (23:20)

I think that there's a, there's a level of luck, you know, there's this old saying that luck is where opportunity meets preparation. Right? Right. And so the opportunity came because I knew you and you were able to give them my resume, but I didn't get that job. Someone else got that job. And they had three other people who you and your running partner did not recommend who also got jobs because they had, and that's just the racket. But because I was willing to show up and I was prepared and I understood what was expected of me as a PA, I was able to prove myself on that, on that day, the chance I go, yeah.

Michael: (23:57)

We had a PA on Tacoma, FD, we talk about, I don't mention his name, but one day one of the writers asked him to get a, for like Tylenol or Advil or something to go to drugstore. And he kind of said, no, he was busy.

Phil: (24:10)

So we should talk about that too. So, so the Writer's PA job is not just lunch. Like you're responsible for whatever the writers need. Like the Showrunners asking you for binders, but not just not binders, but D clipped binders, full ring binders, because they don't like the way the dividers are. And it's my job to go get that for them. I'm also supposed to stock the fridge. I'm supposed to have first aid available. I'm supposed to clean up after them. And so to have a Writer's PA tell a Writer I'm busy. I can't get you medicine because you have a headache. But I think it was worse than that. I think it was. Do you know if we have any, I think they have some upstairs. Can you go get some, I don't think I can do that.

Michael: (24:48)

Yeah. And man and we all laugh when he said no and you know, like men just falls in this guy. Yeah. And then he didn't last much longer than that.

Phil: (24:59)

Well, he did some other stuff I heard too. I, I ended up replacing that guy that season. Um, but he did some other stuff too. Like you told me that he would just like stare through the glass at you guys while you were watching writing stuff.

Michael: (25:12)

Yeah. He just, I had a weird thing where like, he just didn't, he'd come into the room, the Writers' Room and he just wouldn't know when to leave. And he was like, you know, and it got awkward. It's like, Hey, did you got to leave? Now? We got to work. And he would just kind of stand there. I dunno, gabbing or, you know, watching and was just so uncomfortable. And the writer, we, we thought it was hilarious. Like this guy he's something else.

Phil: (25:33)

Well, he hit the nail in the coffin. And I think this is like a big note of what not to do is one of our Showrunners who is an actor on the show is like on Nutrisystem and like cutting weight to get camera ready, because he's going to be, you know, he's effectively starving himself to look good on camera. And he's entitled to lunch more than anybody else on the show. Cause it's his show. And one day he comes in, he's like today I want sushi. And he said, uh, we don't have the budget for that. Right. And he said, I don't care. I'll approve it. Cause he's show is responsible for the budget. And he goes, I've already put in the other lunch order.

Michael: (26:11)

Yeah. That's what it was about. And that, you know, and afterwards we were busting that actor's because you know, I, you're not in charge.

Phil: (26:24)

Yeah. You'll keep your job if you, uh, if you deny your showrunner on her food, the one time he asks for it and the whole season.

Michael: (26:32)

So that guy didn't, he didn't last very long. But, uh, yeah, your, your job is to say yes, not to say no as a PA. Right.

Phil: (26:39)

Well, yeah. Well, interesting stuff. And you know, ultimately like I got that job and I think to your note, one of the first things you told me forever ago is if, you know, if you want to make it in Hollywood, you have to be in LA because that's where the jobs are. And I think there's a caveat because this is a question I've seen in a lot of your social media people say, do you have to live in Hollywood to make it in film? And the answer is depends on what you want to do. Right? So for example, I went to film school in New Mexico and New Mexico is a smaller market that is expanding ridiculously right now. I think Netflix is investing a billion dollars in New Mexico and infrastructure expanding stages. And they bought the biggest stages there where they shoot Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul and all that stuff.

Phil: (27:17)

And so if you want to work in camera or you want to work in, you know, an office position or a locations or a costume position, my opinion is those exterior markets, Utah, where you have Park City studios, you have, um, Santa Fe or Albuquerque where you have a fast growing film industry. You have Louisiana, you have Georgia. Those markets is really easy to progress and move up the ranks in those craftsmen positions. Right. Right. But when we talk about writing, I really think the answer is you do have to be an LA because this is where the writing happens.

Michael: (27:52)

Yeah. All the writing, they even Handmaids Tale. They shoot that. I think in Toronto, they sh they write it here. Um, I'm pretty sure Breaking Bad. They, they, they

Phil: (27:59)

Wrote here in LA, in LA shot, in New Mexico.

Michael: (28:02)

Right. So if you want to be a writer, then you want to be a writer's assistant and you want to be a PA here in LA. So you can come up this way. But in someone, some of them had sent me, um, a question that maybe was on Tik TOK or something. And she was, she seemed very lovely. And by, so I still let her have it. She was, um, she was like, uh, I live in the UK and I would gladly, I really want to break into the business. And I would gladly come here to LA. If someone could guarantee me a job. And I was like, you know, there's no guarantee, you know, no, one's gonna guarantee you a job. Uh, first of all, there are no guarantees in Hollywood. Right. You know, you're not, um, you know, you're, you know, you're not Brad Pitt Brad Pitt.

Michael: (28:42)

He's guaranteed to get a dressing room and, and a driver. You're a PA you have no guarantees. If you came here and got a job, let's say the show would get canceled after 10, at 10 weeks, or you get fired or whatever, you're still out of a job. Now you're out of a job. And so you're still screwed. You have to come here first. And when they're hiring for those positions, that basically for any kind of PA position, the job is like you interviewed today to start tomorrow. And so you can't fly here. We're not going to get, I'm going to give you a week to fly here. And then a week to find a place then a week to get a car because you need a car. It's like, you know, no, you have to be here for those opportunities. There's no, there's no guarantees.

Phil: (29:22)

Yeah. That's what you told me. You said you have to be here because when they want to hire someone, they need you today. Right? Yeah.

Michael: (29:27)

And I, I called you. I remember when that opportunity came up on our current show, I said, Phil, can you, can you be here this afternoon? They're hiring you. You have to be here today.

Phil: (29:35)

Yeah. I think the exact text was, um, we need a PA the job sucks. It's low pay. Do you want it? And I said, I'll do that job for free. Right. And your response. Good answer. That's how I got my first paid job. Hold on. And they're like an hour or so later the Script Coordinator. Um, so basically shot me a text said, Hey, man, uh, it looks like, you know, we'd like to use you on the show. I said, do you want my resume? He's like, no, Michael Jamin's words. Good enough. And it's because you had proved yourself at that time. Right. So they took your recommendation. And I literally showed up the next day

Michael: (30:09)

And I have a new gun

Phil: (30:10)

And I haven't been working on the show in two years. I'm still on the show.

Michael: (30:13)

And if you had 'em right. And if you had, uh, you know, said, well, yeah, I'll be there next week. They would have found somebody else. Right.

Phil: (30:20)

Because, um, literally cause they were, they were buying their own. You guys were buying your own lunch at that point, I think.

Michael: (30:25)

Yeah. Like we, like, we need lunch. Yeah.

Phil: (30:29)

Carrie Clifford's like, I want my tuna where, which tuna do I get. Yeah,

Michael: (30:32)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so yeah, having a good attitude and being ready to start tomorrow is, is really key. Unfortunately, that's how you, if you want to, like, if you want to work in Hollywood, you have to be in Hollywood, you know? And, and sure there are other jobs like in Atlanta and, and, uh, Albuquerque, but often, um, like it may be harder to have a career in those cities because there's just not as many opportunities. So I'm sure people, you know, piece together careers. I just think it'd be easier to piece together a career in Hollywood. There's just more options.

Phil: (31:02)

Yeah. There's constant. There shows constantly shooting, especially right now with streaming and cable. There's not like a development season. Like there used to be right. It's

Michael: (31:11)

And you may have to move, you may, I know like costumers, they work here, but they have to take a job in some other state because that's where the show is shooting, but writers generally have to generally stay in LA. Yeah.

Phil: (31:23)

Yeah. So are there any other jobs or any other ways to break in to Hollywood at this point? I mean, is it, is it just, you have to work yourself way up as a PA or get lucky enough to, you know, be lucky enough and have the craft and skill to become a Screenwriter. Is there another option?

Michael: (31:38)

We talked about this in other episodes where if you have your own, if Hollywood is not going to come to you, unless you really make it worth Hollywood's while. So if you are blowing up on Twitter, if you have a giant Twitter feed or, uh, you know, Instagram or whatever, and, and you have a million followers, Hollywood will find you, you don't have to start at The Bahamas. Like, man, this person here, she's got it going on. Uh, let's give this person to show because they have a built-in marketing platform that often happens. Yeah. So there's a show on CBS, it'd be 10 years ago. Shit My Dad says, and that was based on a popular Twitter feed. Yeah. And so, you know, that guy just tweeted it from wherever he wanted and you know, just find stuff that his dad said.

Phil: (32:19)

Got it. So I, I do, you know, of other people who've broken in, so I'm another writer who is that a lot of stuff to put stuff out there as website he's got scripts and things. Javier Grillo-Marxuach who I think you might know. Yeah. He wrote lost. Yeah. Yeah. Lost. He was a showrunner on a bunch of stuff. So he, I believe was a development executive and he transitioned that position to being a writer. Yeah. So there are those other opportunities as well. Do you know anything about those?

Michael: (32:45)

I do know. I have a friend who we hired on a show, Glen Martin DDS years ago. And I didn't know him at the time we just hired him. We became friends. And I... I discovered after about a year that he was at one point a Development Executive at a studio and I was shocked. I was like, oh, I hadn't because it's a whole, whole different thing. Um, and he told me that most development executives from his they're, they're jealous of writers. They want to be writers. And so, because it's more creative and development executives or, you know, they, they tend to give notes, uh, but they don't do it themselves. And so, cause you know, it's one of those, like why would you want to become, uh, an executive at a studio or a network if you were not had that creative passion in you, you wanted to create. And so the closer I think they can get to creating the more fulfilled they would be, which is, you know, obviously writing is probably closer to... than giving notes to

Phil: (33:35)

Somebody. That makes sense. It makes

Michael: (33:37)

Sense, but I'm, I'm not gonna speak for all that. I'm sure there are many great development executives or creative executives who love exactly their job. But this is what he told me was that he felt that that many or most really wanted to be really wished they were writers. Right.

Phil: (33:50)

And I think that, you know, from my limited perspective, with the, the limited amount of work I've done, kind of the general vibe that I get from most people is that most people in most jobs in Hollywood dreamt of being a writer, director, producer, and they are now doing this other job, hoping to have the job that you're also trying to get.

Michael: (34:13)

I think many writers also want to be directors because it's not writing. It's like, Ooh, because writing is hard. You're like, well, directing it, that seems like something I could do. Was that, was

Phil: (34:20)

That your experience when you directed on Maron?

Michael: (34:23)

Uh, no. That was just an opportunity that came our way. We didn't want to say no to it, but I know other writers who want to get into, or have gotten into directing because writing is really hard. Writing can be difficult even like, I, I used to say like, if you think writing is fun, you're kind of, you're probably doing it wrong. It's hard to do it. Right. It's hard. Yeah. And so I think a lot of writers that well, anything about writing, so.

Phil: (34:47)

Right, right. Well, awesome, man. I think it was incredibly helpful. You have any other thoughts or?

Michael: (34:52)

No, I think that's, I think we covered a lot. We have, we have more podcasts come and Phil. We got to save it for the next.

Phil: (34:57)

Oh, I love it. No. So again, you know, I think that if you want any more of this information, definitely check out Michael's course because he goes into this more detail kind of what's expected in some of those positions and what it takes. But yeah, I think the big note that I would like to give or leave people with is that you don't have to have won the lottery or be born with a silver spoon in your mouth. I sure wasn't. And I live in LA and I work full year round as a PA. And I'm actively working on progressing towards being a better writer so you can make it happen. You just have to get rid of the excuses and just take control and just make decisions with what can I do today to improve things. And we talked about this on another podcast, like I've always was raised with this prodigy syndrome.

Phil: (35:41)

I feel like I have to hit grand slams with everything I do. And there's this framework that I've transitioned to, which is, you know, it's Moneyball, it's singles singles win baseball games. If I can hit a single today, like which might just be writing something, I can hit a single today. It's not sexy. If I hit a single tomorrow, it's not sexy. If I hit a single one day three, it's not sexy, but they, for you score it run day five. You score a run. It's about chaining those singles together. And that's how you ultimately win.

Michael: (36:08)

I think so. That makes sense to me. Yeah. Like people say like, well, how do I become a writer is like, you're, if you write every day, you're a writer, right? If you want to be a paid writer, that's a little different, but you know, but if you were someone new who wrote a script last year, you're not a writer. You have someone you're someone who has written. So a writer you're constantly writing, it's active. And, and that will make, that will make you better at your craft and will increase your odds of actually becoming a professional writer.

Phil: (36:35)

Awesome. I love it. Here's a great way to end. Thank you, Michael. Thanks everybody for listening.

Michael: (36:40)

Thank you.

Phil: (36:53)

This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing leaving a review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. If you're looking to support yourself, I encourage you to consider investing in Michael's screenwriting course at MichaelJamin.com/course. I've known Michael for over a decade. And in the past seven years, I've begged him to put something together. During the global COVID-19 pandemic. Michael had time. And I have to say, I wish I'd had this course 10 years ago. As someone who has personally invested in most online courses, earned a bachelor's degree, and actively studied screenwriting for over a decade, this course has been more valuable to me than most of the effort I've put in because it focuses on something noone else teaches: story. In his course, Michael pulls back the curtain and shows you exactly what the pros do in a writer's room and that knowledge has made all the difference for me. And I know it will for you too. You can find more information at MichaelJamin.com/course for free daily screenwriting tips. Follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.filet Hudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas crane until next time, keep writing.

Michael and Phil discuss what it's like to work with a writing partner, how to choose one, and what to look out for. Dive deep into Michael's background with his partner Sivert Glarum and what they did to make it in Hollywood.

Michael's Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Sivert Glarum’s IMDB Page - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0321770/

Stephen Prestfield's Book - https://www.amazon.com/Nobody-Wants-Read-Your-Tough-Love/dp/1936891492

Warner Bros. Writer’s Workshop - https://televisionworkshop.warnerbros.com/writers-workshop/

Glenn Martin, DDS on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8hzMh1WQ6t5dwbnNop2fVA

The Complete Idiot’s Guide to Screenwriting by Skip Press - https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Idiots-Guide-Screenwriting-3rd/dp/1592577555

Ted Elliott & Terry Rossio’s Screenwriting Website - http://wordplayer.com/

Michael: (00:00)

I'm always reminding myself of the basics. Cause it's really, it's funny. I remember when I was on King of the hill, having a conversation with Greg Daniels who later created the American version of The Office, but I said, Greg, there is no Writing 102. It's all Writing 101. And he's like, "Yes! That's it." Writing one. It's all writing because it is, everything is all, it's all the basics.

Michael: (00:27)

All right, everyone. Hey, welcome back today. We're going to talk about working with a partner and how to find one and had a, had a, why you want one or why you don't want one. And because I've been working with a TV, writing... A partner, I've had a partner for Jesus. We've been together, you know, close to 30 years. I don't want to date myself. It's maybe, oh, maybe almost that many years. And so we always work together. His name is Sivert Glarum and we always work together. That's how a partnership is, but it's tricky, it's a tricky thing, finding a partner. So I thought I'd elaborate on that for anyone who...

Phil: (00:57)

I think it's an interesting topic, especially for someone like myself where, you know, I've... I definitely see the value of a partner, but I also see a lot of... My experience with having to rely on other people from group projects in school, down to actually trying to lean in and trust that someone will follow through on their end. My experiences have not been great.

Michael: (01:20)

Yeah. It's a marriage. And like, marriages are not always easy. Not, not, not everyone's meant to get married to other people. So it's really, you know, I think I got lucky, um, in comedy, it's probably more, it's more advantageous to have a writing partner in comedy because when you, when you say something funny, you don't know, it's funny until someone else is laughing. You may think it's funny, but you know, until someone, your partner laughs, then you go, okay, that must be funny. Um, and I'll just talk about how we met because when I talk in comedy, it's, there's so many ways. I guess when we, when we met, we were team... We were teamed up, uh, in comedy that like some people have partners and its common to have a partner. It's common not to have a partner, but when you have a partner, you literally split a salary for the rest of your career.

Michael: (02:06)

But, but it does make you, it, in theory, it gives you the advantage of getting hired more often, because you're kind of getting two for that. You're literally getting two for the price of one. And especially when you get high up levels, you're then you're running a show. And now, you know, when you are a showrunner that you have so many responsibilities. It really helps to have someone else take some of them off your hand. And if you don't have a partner, you gotta do it all. You know, so that's, but like I said, it is tricky because you have to get along and like you're pointing out, do you, you have to, you know, you have to really get along with this person. You just have to carry your weight.

Phil: (02:40)

I think that'd be interesting to get, I'm sure we'll get into this. I think it'll be interesting to talk about kind of your division of labor as you're going through the process of how you're writing. Uh, you know, I, I've heard of different processes based on different writing partnerships, whether, you know, it's the, the Thomas Lennon, Robert Ben Garrett process of they just assign scenes. So one person takes odds and one person takes evens and as they send them back, they're continuously rewriting each other. So by the time they're done with draft one, they have 20 rewrites done. Or is it that one of you sits at the typewriter or the, excuse me, not dating myself at all, sit at the computer and like type it out while the other one dictates or does it take turns? That's an interesting...

Michael: (03:23)

And I've seen partners do it both ways with the way we do. We literally write everything together. So we will sit at the same at the, at the, uh, you know, computer and one will look at the monitor and the other will be at the keyboard and we literally type at the same. So, you know, the one, I tend to be the one who does the typing, uh, mostly because I'm a better typer than S. It is, um, and frustrating to no end when I'm watching him struggle to put a word together. But, uh, but sometimes he'll do it. And I, you know, I I'll loss it and watch. And so, uh, it's nice. It's nice to have someone drive the boat a little bit, but I'll talk about how we, how we met. We were, uh, I was signed by an agent and, uh, my, you know, few years out of college and was a very big deal for me.

Michael: (04:09)

And she blew a lot of smoke up my and she's like, I signed one baby writer a year and, uh, I make a star out of that writer this year. You're the guy and congratulations. And I was like, wow, I'm on cloud nine. And she's like, in three years, you're going to be running your own show. I was like, oh my God running. I don't even know if I can write a, you know, an episode of TV, but running. And then, you know, when the smoke cleared a couple days later, I was curious about what had happened to the previous baby writer before me. And so I got through there, I guess, through their assistant, I got the name of this guy and I called them up. He was actually two years before me and I called him up and I was like, Hey man, what, what show are you running?

Michael: (04:46)

Cause you obviously must be incredibly successful. And he's like, dude, I work at a record store. And, uh, so he hadn't gotten staffed at all. And so we decided to team up, we had, there are two reasons to team up. Uh, one, I, I, I knew enough then to know, like I was, it was hard. I knew, I knew enough to know that I didn't know enough and that we traded scripts. I was like, man, this guy is, this guy is a better writer than I was. Even though we were both signed independently and I was hotter than he was in terms of, I was the new flavor of the week for this agent. And rather than compete against each other for the same job we teamed up. And, uh, and that's how we, that's how we became partners.

Phil: (05:28)

So, so how did you broach that conversation of, um, what do you think here? Is this something that you want to do together? Like how did that conversation?

Michael: (05:36)

Yeah, I think we were both interested in writing with a partner. He like, he had a partner many years earlier who decided to get out and become a socialist, uh, that how Sivert describes it. And so we were both open to the idea and, you know, we kind of met and we hit it off. We were coming from similar backgrounds. We're both from the east coast. Sivert a couple of years older than me, but, you know, close in age, we both played the trumpet and, you know, grade school, that kind of thing. Right,

Phil: (06:02)

Right. Mastering it in heaven.

Michael: (06:04)

Yeah, but a lot of partners are just, they, you know, they tend to be, Hey, we were friends in college and we both want it. I know that happens a lot. And so let's, let's go out to Hollywood together and become writing partners. So that often, that often is the case. Sometimes you see a husband and wife has a writing partner.

Phil: (06:20)

I've, I've seen that, um, a couple of times, some pretty big names or writing partners in our couples. So, so, okay. So that's, I mean, that's a fascinating topic. I was literally just listening to, I was out on runs for our show yesterday in post-production and I had to just drive all over Hollywood and Burbank multiple times. So I started listening to a Steven Pressfield book. He wrote The War of Art, um, Turning Pro... A bunch of stuff. He he's a screenwriter who did the novel of a Legend of Bagger Vance, and also wrote the film is multiple time bestselling author been in the industry from the advertising background. And he's got this other book that I never read. And it's um, No One Wants to Read Your Shit. Pardon that? Yeah. Interesting. That's the title. And his whole point is you have to understand whether you're in advertising, writing novels, writing screenplays.

Phil: (07:07)

No one wants to read your shit. And, and so you shouldn't be like surprised when no one gets around to it. And ultimately it has to be that good that they want to read it. But he talks about how he got partnered up with this big name. And ultimately he felt like he wasn't getting a lot of the credit for what he was doing because he was the writer and the other guy was the name. And his agent sat him down. Once he said, you need to understand that right now he is the known deal because he's had hits with his other writing partner. He's had hits with you. He's the common denominator. You're a nobody. So you need to understand your role here. Now, obviously your situation's a little bit different because we were both young baby writers who partnered up, but it sounds like there's even a little bit of that because you were the hot thing for you, right.

Michael: (07:52)

It was the hot, but he was trading. Cause we traded scripts. I'm like this guy really is a really good writer. I could tell just from reading a script, like he was, he really understood story structure. And, um, he had, he had sold on his own, an episode with his previous partner an episode of the wonder years. So it was like he had, he did have a little more, you know, he had one under the belt and I had none of the under the belt, but the truth is like, and I remember in the beginning there was a struggle between us in terms of, we didn't know how to trust each other. And, and of course I wanted more of my lines in the script and his lines and, you know, back I kind of thing. And then as you get older and more mature, it's really that ego goes out the window.

Michael: (08:30)

And it's more about whoever pitches the line that will get you home sooner. That's the one you'll do, you know? It's like, I don't really, if it comes out of his mouth, great, that's great. Let's use that one. I don't really care. And I think he feels vice versa. It's like, um, and often, you know, we'll do a rewrite on a script and he'll want to cut a line and like, no, no, no, no, that's the best line of the script. And it's his line, you know? And he's, you know, so I'm fighting for his stuff and vice versa, you know? So

Phil: (08:58)

It's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So the pride dies as you become a pro is really what I'm hearing.

Michael: (09:03)

Yeah, I think so. It's also like in the beginning of the novelty of seeing your words on TV, it was like, oh my God, my lines are on TV, millions of people. And then, uh, you know, that gets, it's not that it gets old, but you've become accustomed to it. And then you're really, it's really more about just doing the work and finishing the work as opposed to like your ego, you know?

Phil: (09:24)

Okay. So you obviously knew he was, he was engaged cause he was obviously working on the stuff, but for people who are considering teaming up, aside from the benefit of, you're more likely to get staffed, you have someone to vet your jokes or your story against to kind of tell you whether or not it's good. How can you tell whether or not someone's serious? Like someone's a good partner.

Michael: (09:42)

The thing, cause we were both, we were both signed by the agent. So we were both, um, intent on breaking into Hollywood. So, you know, so it wasn't like, it wasn't like a fluke or it wasn't like a Lark, neither one of us. Like it was a Lark and we were both around the same time. And Hollywood, we were both like on a struggling PAs and we would work on the weekends. We were both very committed. So after work and on the weekends, every day we met and we wrote spec scripts over, you know, wrote and wrote and wrote. And so, because he was a couple of years older, he was also a little bit more hungry, a little more desperate. It was like he had to make a, this happened now. And so we both had that same work ethic in terms of like, and I was young, I was a little younger, but I was also like, I want to, I want it now. I don't have any patience. So was like, we have to hit this now. And so it was a sense of franticness and, and uh, urgency. And it wasn't like there was no plan B for either of us. Hmm.

Phil: (10:35)

So how, how, how long after your partnered, did you end up, uh, selling something?

Michael: (10:40)

I think, um, I'm trying to remember it. Like it was, we wound up selling an episode of Lewis and Clark that I helped get, because that was my, I, we sold it to my, my, uh, my bosses. I was working as their, uh, assistant at the time. So I got that because, you know, they were my bosses and that might've been a couple of years after we were writing, but then it took another couple of years before we were able to get staffed on our first job, which was Just Shoot Me. And so it took a few years. And in between then we also got into the Warner Bros. Writing Program, which really did nothing for our career, but you know, it was something, so it took a few years of struggling. And I remember like at that age, the years feel like decades, especially when you feel like, you know, um, you know, I should be doing more with my life. So yeah.

Phil: (11:26)

Yeah. So, so the reason I asked that is because what you're describing is everyday after work and on weekends, you're practicing your craft. So you've talked about in other episodes is a writer writes. That's what they do. If you wrote something a year ago, you have written, but you are not actively writing. And so what I'm hearing you say is, even though you had agents, which the big misconception is you need an agent to break into Hollywood and that's that's what does it for you that didn't help? Nope. And then even then you put in years of effort to make it to your first staff job.

Michael: (11:59)

Yeah. And the first spec script that we wrote together, it was a friend's I think it was a first one. It made me minimum the first, it was one of the first. And, but we just kept on writing specs. We probably wrote maybe eight or so specs together, maybe more of show like anyway, ironically it was at first, I think it was the first spec, a spec script that we wrote together that wound up getting work for us years later, it was a really good, uh, spec, but like, we just didn't quit. It was like, well, write another one, write another one, you know, let's get better. You know, so, and I'm, I haven't looked at it in years, but I'm sure I'd look at it. Go, Ooh boy, it's not as good as I remember it. You know? Cause you get, you get better as, as you get older.

Phil: (12:35)

Right. So, so there has to be a committed, uh, commitment to craft and professionalism is ultimately a good vetting benchmark for this. Are these people willing to work as hard as I am?

Michael: (12:46)

Yeah. And it's not a get rich quick scheme. It's not like, Hey, let's, you know, let's try this on a Lark and let's try, hopefully we'll sell us. It was like, no, no, we both want to become writers, professional writers. We will not going to stop until we get there. We're going to work our asses until we do.

Phil: (12:59)

Yeah. Yeah. Got it. Okay. All right. So similar goals, hard work, work ethic, all those things. Yeah. Are there any red flags that you can think of, "Hey, this is probably not a partnership that's gonna work out."

Michael: (13:13)

Yeah. I mean, like I said that the ego part of it, I also think part of our, what made us a good team, especially in the beginning was in the, in a comedy writing room. Usually, you get classified as a joke guy or girl joke guy or a story guy. And if I were to, I was definitely a joke. I and Sivert, it was probably a story guy. And so we had complementary skill sets and now, but years later, um, I've definitely moved towards the, towards the story person as well. It's like, cause the jokes, jokes are fun and it's like, it's like a lot of sizzle and you get a lot of credit and people love the joke guy, but the story person is far more valuable and it's a skill that's way more important to have, uh, than just being funny or jokes. Those are disposable. Really.

Phil: (13:57)

That's a note that I've seen from industry professionals that I know personally is, um, if you don't understand story structure, you don't know how to lay out a story. It's not helpful.

Michael: (14:08)

Yeah. And, and I sh no one does when they start out. Nope. Everyone thinks they do. And they don't. I mean, they're very, they're very few people who are born with that innate skill and they rise up to the top very fast. The rest of us have to learn it. And it takes a long, you know, it takes a while to learn that. So

Phil: (14:23)

Got it. And to your point, like, even though I've seen this, like you taught me this stuff, you have it in your course. I've probably seen you teach story structure the way you break a story. And in any room, I still catch myself on a first draft thinking, why did I just bulldoze that, uh, that plot point right there? Like why, why did I step over that story point?

Michael: (14:41)

Yeah. And I make the same mistakes all the time too. Like I'll sometimes all I'll read my work or what, you know, you need the distance, uh, some time to, to look at your working a wait a minute, this is why what's going on here because you get lost in the weeds and you have to go always go back to the basics. I'm always reminding myself of the basics. Cause it's really, it's funny. I remember when I was on King of the Hill, having a conversation with Greg Daniels who later created the American version of The Office and he was my boss on king of the hill. And I impressed him with something that I said, which was odd and it would impress him. But I said, Greg, there is no Writing 102, it's all Writing 101. And he's like, "yes, that's it! Writing 101." It's all writing. Cause it is. And everything's all, it's all the basics. But I think people will, there are people out there who will try to sell you Writing 102, because they can make a buck, but it's all 101 right. But you have to master that part, you know?

Phil: (15:33)

Yeah. The 102 does not help you because 101 has the mastery. Yeah.

Michael: (15:37)

It's like advanced screenwriting, advanced screenings, all basics, you know? Okay. Yes. Master the basics.

Michael: (15:46)

Hi guys. Michael Jamin here. I wanted to take a break from talking and talk just a little bit more. I think a lot of you guys are getting bad advice on the internet. I know this because I'm getting tagged. One guy tagged me with this. He said, I heard from a script reader in the industry. And I was like, wait, what? Hold on, stop. My head blew up. I blacked out. And when I finally came to, I was like, listen, dude, there are no script readers in the industry by definition. These are people on the outside of the industry. They work part-time, they'd give their right arm to be in the industry. And instead they're giving you advice on what to do and you're paying for this. I mean, that just made me nuts, man. These people are unqualified to give my dog advice. And by the way, her script is, is coming along quite nicely.

Michael: (16:25)

And oh, and I'm not done. Another thing when I work with TV writers who a new one, I'm writing staffs. A lot of these guys flame out after 13 episodes. So they get this big break. They finally get in and then they flame out because they don't know what is expected of them on the job. And that's sad because you know, it's not going to happen again. So to fight all this, to flush all this bad stuff out of your head, I post daily tips on social media. You can find me on Instagram and TikTok and Facebook @MichaelJaminWriter. If you don't have time, two minutes a day to devote towards improving your craft guys, it's not going to happen. Let's just be honest. So go find, make it happen. All right. Now, back to my previous rant.

Phil: (17:07)

So prior to COVID, I was doing Brazilian Jiu Jitsu here in the valley with a guy named Romelo Barral and he's like a 10 time world champion. He's he's a legend, like UFC fighters, train at his gym. And he's just considered a master. And someone asked him the question what's better. Is it strength or cardio? And he said, cardio, because strength will fail you every time like strength will fade and your cardio can endure. And it's almost like what I'm hearing you say is understanding basics with story structure and storytelling. Those fundamentals are the cardio to everything else. It's the engine that keeps you running.

Michael: (17:40)

Yeah. And, and like, so few people really want to study that because that's not fun. You know...

Phil: (17:46)

And that's not sexy. And you know, it, it definitely feels at times it feels contrived or feels formulaic and what I don't think people understand and that I'm slowly learning is that is ingrained in us as a, as a species. It's whether you're talking Joseph Campbell or you're talking, you know, um, other psychological profiles in this stuff, like, uh, Jungian archetypes that storytelling comes from thousands and thousands of years of storytelling. And that's why Homer told his stories and the similar structure. And that's why Shakespeare did. And that's why we do.

Michael: (18:21)

Yeah. And it's just because it feels right. Something, it just feels right in your bones, but that's not to say it's cliche. Like you can always make cliche choices that you see a mile away. I mean, but you, if you follow the structure, there's plenty of creativity within those, within the points. So it doesn't feel cliche. You know, there's still a lot of choices that you can make and mistakes that you can make along the way. But if you have the structure, it really helps. It's like a house, you know, the houses you can decorate any way you want, but the house needs to have these things to stay up and not fall down.

Phil: (18:49)

Yeah. It makes sense. Yeah. Strong foundation. Right. You have to have it, the war house washes away. Yeah. So, so going back to the comment you made earlier, where you're talking about this division of labor. So we've talked about that when you first started out and we talked about in the writer's room as a Showrunner, as someone who has a show that you're managing, what's the division of labor for you and your partner when you become an Executive Producer.

Michael: (19:12)

Yeah. So that kind of started our first show that we ran together was called Glenn Martin DDS. And that was a little jem that no one saw and it was Kevin, it was animated. Oh, look at that. He's got a, you got... I gave Phil a toy .

Phil: (19:24)

I've got your DVD right here.

Michael: (19:26)

You can go find that. I think it plays on YouTube or make no money. So you can watch, you can watch on YouTube for free. And that was with Kevin Nealon. He did the voice and Catherine O'Hara was amazing. Of course he's hilarious. And Judy Greer that they what a cast we had. And, um, and so on, on once a week, I would have to, we'd have to record the actors and Sivert would stay in the writer's room, running the rewrite or breaking stories for the next episode while I was on the soundstage, directing the actress. I have a, I'm pretty good at that. I'm... I'm a decent, uh, I can hear the voices and I'm, I'm pretty good at directing and expressing myself and trying to get pulling out the best, uh, performances from actors and Sivert is great at breaking story.

Michael: (20:05)

So it worked out, it worked out really well. Um, yeah, that kind of division of labor. But if, if we were only one of us, then that one, you know, something would have suffered. Someone would have not either directed the actors, the right person, you'd have to delegate to like a number two that you trust. And the fact that Sivert, and I've been working for all these years, like we know like we have the same taste cause we, so we, I can hear his voice. He can hear my voice. We know it's, it's rare that we disagree on, on, on a story point or, um, you know, our take, you know, so it's a lot of trust and a lot of we have the same kind of brain even often. We're, um, I don't remember what we're doing. Oh, we were, we were, um, uh, meeting on another show and, uh, we had, um, we had the same, we both had this favorite episode. We were talking about it later, like, oh yeah, that's the episode I liked best. And he was like, yeah, I liked that one, the best two out of like the six that we saw and we'd liked it for the same reasons.

Phil: (21:00)

Right. Right. Do you feel like that's innate or is that your taste has grown together over time? Like being partners?

Michael: (21:09)

Uh, it's grown. We have a similar sensibility over time. Yeah.

Phil: (21:13)

Got it. Got it. So, so on the subject of working with partners, you know, you talked about people from college, you've talked about, you know, your agent in partnering with people, your agents repping. So you're not competing against each other. Are there any other ways you can think of to come up with and find a good partner if that's what you're looking for? Like sort of like a writer's dating apps.

Michael: (21:34)

Yeah. I have no idea. I imagine I would have no idea. I know people like in the course that I teach or that offer that, um, people, they reach out, they trade scripts that seems like could be, we have a private Facebook group. I dunno if anybody's teamed up from that. But that seems like a decent way to team up with someone because you're all serious about the craft. And you both have learned the language that I use in describing stories. So it's kind of like you have the same kind of, you already have the same foundation a little bit. I don't, you know?

Phil: (22:03)

Yeah. And then to your point, I think that that's a very powerful indicator to me of someone's seriousness in, you know, years ago, the first book I ever read on screenwriting was The Complete Idiot's Guide to Screenwriting by Skip Press. And he had a couple of resources in there. One of those resources is WordPlayer.com and that's run by Ted Elliott and Terry Rossio who wrote like Aladdin, Shrek, Pirates of the Caribbean, Small Soldiers, basically every film... wrote on..., they basically every film I grew up with in the nineties and in the early two thousands. And they had a bunch of these articles back from AOL in the forums, right. And one of them was talking about professionalism and they said, you cannot call yourself a professional until you're willing to invest in your craft. And that doesn't mean scouring the internet, looking for free scripts. It means going down to a script shop and buying them or going on Amazon and buying a script, it's finding that.

Michael: (22:55)

That's something you do really well, by the way. Like you always invest in yourself. Always. Yeah, yeah.

Phil: (23:01)

Yeah. Well, I took, I took that note very seriously. And so I have, I had purchased many online screenwriting courses. I went to film school. I did all those things. And that's one thing that I appreciate about your course. Is there's, there's almost like a paywall that kind of keeps the riffraff out. And it's not saying that if you don't have the funds, that you're riff-raff what I'm saying is there's a level of seriousness that comes with and making an investment in yourself. Yeah. And all of the conversations I've had, I've given notes on scripts to multiple people in that group. It's, it's super helpful. They reach out to me proactively and ask what they can do for me to read my stuff and

Michael: (23:37)

A nice, yeah,

Phil: (23:38)

Yeah, absolutely. And the cool thing is we're also coming at it from the stories, from understanding how real writers break story in the TV, TV writers' room, right. Like they're, they're analyzing say, oh, you missed this point. And I don't understand how this pays off. And, and we're, we're speaking it almost like the same insider language.

Michael: (23:57)

Yeah. So yeah, that's, that's riding with a partner and, uh, it's probably less important for drama, but for comedy, it could be, I think it's really helpful. And, uh, it, you know, it's something to consider something to, you know, explore perhaps.

Phil: (24:10)

Yeah. I love it. Thanks so much, Michael. I appreciate the info and the insights and thanks to everybody for listening.

Michael: (24:15)

Yeah. Thank you. Everyone. Talk, we'll see you on the next

Phil: (24:30)

This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing leaving a review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. If you're looking to support yourself, I encourage you to consider investing in Michael's screenwriting course at MichaelJamin.com/course. I've known Michael for over a decade. And in the past seven years, I've begged him to put something together. During the global COVID-19 pandemic. Michael had time. And I have to say, I wish I'd had this course 10 years ago. As someone who has personally invested in most online courses, earned a bachelor's degree, and actively studied screenwriting for over a decade, this course has been more valuable to me than most of the effort I've put in because it focuses on something noone else teaches: story. In his course, Michael pulls back the curtain and shows you exactly what the pros do in a writer's room and that knowledge has made all the difference for me. And I know it will for you too. You can find more information at MichaelJamin.com/course for free daily screenwriting tips. Follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

Michael & Phil tackle the subject of agents and managers and what new screenwriters need to do to attract representation. They also discuss pitch fests and screenplay contests.

Show Notes

Michael's Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

@DavidHSteinberg will read your script - https://twitter.com/davidhsteinberg/status/1430195753373167623

Sarah Cooper is a comedian who grew famous for valuable content she put out on her own. - https://sarahcpr.com/

A behind the scenes look at pitch fests - https://twitter.com/ChrisAmick/status/1420501613572022275?s=20

Results of screenplay contests - https://twitter.com/EricHaywood/status/1422615678436003842?s=20

Screenwriting contest from a Pro's perspective - https://twitter.com/matthewfederman/status/1422615672215900164?s=20

Film Festival and Screenplay Contest submission software - https://filmfreeway.com/

The Nicholl’s Fellowship - https://www.oscars.org/nicholl

The Sundance Labs - https://www.sundance.org/apply

The Black List main website - https://blcklst.com/

The Black List evaluations and script hosting - https://blcklst.com/register/writer/

Writer’s Guild of America Dispute with Agencies Explained - https://www.vulture.com/article/wga-hollywood-agents-packaging-explained.html

Transcript

Michael: (00:00)

Whenever I hear a writer, saying they're typing, they're working at Starbucks. I always laugh, come on, man. It's so cliche. I don't do that. It's very rare. Most people who work in Starbucks who are tapping on their computers, please in LA, right? They want you to think that they're a writer. "Look at me. I'm a writer." But if you are real writer, in my experience, it's like, you're not working in a coffee shop. You're working on a show. 

Michael: (00:28)

Hey, welcome back everybody. Today. We're going to be talking about agents and managers. Oh, that's a good one. Phil. Don't you think? 

Phil: (00:35)

I think it's probably the most vital thing for anybody to know about how to become a screenwriter. 

Michael: (00:39)

All right. Um, what are we going to do? Well, I guess everyone wants to know how to find an agent or a manager. What would the reason why you kind of need one is so first of all, you can't submit. I people often say to me, what can I give you? My screenplay? It's just, just so I get some notes or just so you can, you know, whatever, keep me in mind for something in the future. And the answer is absolutely not because I have to me and every other working writer in the industry, we have to protect ourselves. Like, let's say you, you have a talking dog cartoon and you say, Hey, I want you to read my talking dog cartoon. And I, and I get it or whatever. I open it up. I opened up the file like, oh, because now I haven't talking dog cartoon. 

Michael: (01:17)

We all have talking dog cartoons. It's not an original idea, but because I looked at yours now, now if I get mine on the ear, you're going to sue me because we both have terrible clammy ideas. And so naturally I stole yours and that's not the case. It's just like, these are ideas out there. And the same thing with like a joke or an area. So most TV writers will protect themselves. We will not read unsolicited scripts. We just will not do it. Even if you sign a waiver or not gonna do it. Like I, you know, it's just too risky. 

Phil: (01:45)

It's really interesting. So I just saw two cases of this. There's a showrunner who just on Twitter for his birthday announced, "Hey, I will read your script." You have to, he's a lawyer, by the way, you have to understand his, his career was "lawyer". And now he is a writer. Also he has a waiver, you have to sign and you have to agree to, and he gave very specific parameters to get your script to him. And then I, I just retweeted another showrunner today. And she's like, as a reminder, I will not read any unsolicited scripts because I have to legally can't cause I have to protect myself. Yeah. Right. So I'm funny. So, so the case where you're seeing it, you have to keep in mind, like, I mean, they are attorneys or in the case of other people who do you know, the return page counts of your scripts, they have attorneys who have drafted documents to protect them. 

Michael: (02:31)

Yeah, yeah. Right. I don't, I'm not an attorney. I'm not going to do it. Um, but so that's why it has to come through an agent for some reason, when it comes through an agent, you have a layer of protection, but a little bit of the, uh, you know, and that's what the Ford you. So, and I will only read a script by the way, through an agent when it's, when there's something in it for me. And by that, it means like if I'm staffing for a TV show, I need to hire people and then I'll read the script, but I'm not going to read it as a, as a personal, you know, my pastime, you know/. 

Phil: (03:00)

Well, right. And so obviously my, my response to you was a little facetious here. I was, I don't actually think that getting an agent or a manager is the most vital thing to your career. I think that anyone who's listened to any of the podcasts episodes so far understand the Michael Jamin answer to this is be a better be a good writer. Yeah. Right. Whatever. Yeah. Not even a good writer to be a great writer, be so good. I can't ignore you. 

Michael: (03:22)

Yeah. Right. Yeah. That's, that's another episode. We will talk about the future. I want to go into that in great depth, but, but right. And so often when you get made, if you have an agent that means you've, you've surpassed, you've gotten over the first hump, which is like an agent feels like you're good enough. Um, and then, then I'll read a ton of scripts. All the scripts that I read from new writers are they've already cleared that first hurdle. They're good enough to get an agent, but that doesn't mean they're good enough to get a job. Right. And so, you know, you have to be a, you have to have a great script. And if it's like, well, I don't have a great script. Well, I'll find somebody else who does, there's somebody out there who has a great script. 

Phil: (04:00)

Right. Right. So this is an interesting thing, because I think I put an overwhelming amount of emphasis on this question when I was first learning how to be a writer because you on forums and in screenwriting books and on websites, people say, well, you got to get an agent to sell something. And I think, well, I have an idea and I want to sell it. Thus, I need an agent. And the truth is, um, you have to be so good that the agent thinks he can sell you. Right? Yeah. It goes back to our conversation on our last episode about sales it's they are selling something and they were getting a commission for that. And they are not going to waste their time or energy on something, unless they think they can sell what you have, because you are a commodity. 

Michael: (04:43)

Yeah. And if you had, I guess, say an agent, it's someone, there's a couple of things I want to explore. One is if you're up for it, you want to get a staff writing job. You're not competing against other people on the outside who've never written before. You're also competing since staff writers who have already worked, who are willing to do another, do another year as a staff writer. So now you're competing against people who've never done it and people who have done it well, or, and then maybe you're competing as story editors, which is the next level up from staff writer who are willing to take a bump down in salary because they want to work. So now you're competing against people who have one year of experience and two years of experience. So you must be great. You have to be great. And then the agent who's going to sign you. 

Michael: (05:22)

They have a handful of clients and they're have, they have to service all those clients. They're already trying to get those clients work. So if they're going to bring on somebody new that person, you want to make it as easy as possible for them to sell you because they're don't, they already, you know, they got plenty on their plate. And so one way to make it easy is to have a fantastic script, not just a good enough script. And in other way is, uh, if you have a built-in, uh, Beltman, uh, marketing market arm, like you're already very sellable. For example, there was a woman named Sarah Cooper and she blew up during the pandemic because she used to make a viral videos of, of Trump, where she put Trump's speeches. And then she would kinda, uh, lip sync to them. But she wasn't just lip sinking. 

Michael: (06:04)

She would also add little comic touches to them and she'd edit it really clever. I, she put a lot of work into one and they were really quite, they were next level. It was next level stuff. And it blew up on Twitter or one of the social media platforms. And, um, it became so big that she became known... she was an unknown before this. She was, uh, an aspiring actor, comedic actors. She couldn't get, she couldn't get arrested. And because she did all this work on her own and she blew up on her own suddenly it was like, well, it was a no brainer for every agent to sign her. She's already got a built-in platform. She already has a built-in marketing engine. And so she had made it very attractive.

Phil: (06:45)

This is, So this is an interesting thing where I think, you know, again, my perspective on this stuff kind of comes from a capitalistic perspective because my business and marketing background, but we're talking about audience here and we're talking about, you know, attention. It's really what we are, what we're offering people is something to gather their attention and they have to be willing to trade their time and energy and focus for that type of thing. So when you're writing a script, you're basically have to write something so good that someone is willing to sit through commercials or pay a monthly subscription to be entertained. Right. And that's what they're looking for. And so what this girl has done is she has brought some value to the table because she already has interest. She's provided free entertainment to people. And so those people want to see more of what she does. She has that audience. So I think it kind of speaks to what we're seeing now, which you've experienced recently with your book that you want to do. These people care a lot about, do you have an audience because you're bringing interested people with you. Yeah. 

Michael: (07:50)

Right. And she also did... Sarah Cooper along with others who did the same thing. She did all this for free. She wasn't putting up her content and saying, Hey, someone paying you for my Trump impersonations. Right. You know, this was, she put a lot of work in it for free and expected, nothing in return and got something in return for it. You know? So she was smart. And by the way, she was just as talented before she started doing these videos as she was afterwards. So it's the same person. So talent isn't quite enough. You know, 

Phil: (08:18)

That's an interesting note, right? Like, yeah. Like, and I'm trying to think of the exact saying on this, but talent. There are lots of talented people who go nowhere because they don't have the work ethic behind it. 

Michael: (08:30)

Yeah. Yeah. And they don't have right. They don't, they're not, they're not then actually not seeing the problem from the end of the, the, the perspective of the buyer. What is the buyer one? And let's say the agent is your buyer. The agent is the person who want you, you know, you want them to buy you. Well, what's in it for them. They don't want to work that hard. They want to find a new client who is, requires the least amount of work on their part because they have, you know, they got plenty to do. And if they find with a, with a built-in marketing engine and is super talented and you don't have to convince someone to buy, you don't have to beg and plead and cold calling favors. You know, they don't have to hustle. No one wants to know Adrian wants to hustle for you. They want someone who's like a slam dunk. They want that person to hustle for them. 

Phil: (09:10)

Yeah. Yeah. That's an interesting take. So, well, let's just assume then that I have the talent and I've got the goods. Like I've got the energy and maybe I haven't, for whatever reason hit it. I haven't gone viral. I don't have the following yet. And I want to get an agent. So I'm just going to run a couple of situations by, and you tell me if you think these are good places to get an agent and you may not, you may not be able to answer these, but I think you were so, yeah. So, uh, number one, pitch fests. 

Michael: (09:38)

Yeah. So I didn't, that wasn't even a thing when I was coming up. And then when I found out the pitch fast, I was like, what is that about? That doesn't make any sense to me. I I'm gonna have to say no. I actually, I ran on Twitter, someone Tweeted out, well, I let my agent or whatever. I sold the project to a Pitch Fest. But for, I, for every one person who says that like 10 others say what a waste of time. They don't even send people. It's just like our, I think it's just a racket, honestly. You know? Cause why would, if you were a producer and you wanted to get in touch with, um, a talented writer for a project you're working on, like, why in the hell would you go to a pitch that you go to an agency you've called talent agencies say, Hey, I got an idea for a project. Uh, I need writers. And they, within 10 minutes, there'd be a dozen writers outside the door saying, yes, let's do this. Like, you wouldn't go to some unknown. You wouldn't say, give me someone who's never done it before at a pitch fast. And maybe you'll say, okay, well maybe they don't have much money. Well, if they don't have much money, how are they going to raise money for this movie? Or this TV show? Like, what's that about? You know, it seems, it just seems shady, shady, AAF. 

Phil: (10:44)

Didn't I send you a tweet by someone who basically was like, yeah, my first day or my first week on the job, I was sent to represent the company in a pitch Fest. And I wore a suit and tie to try to make myself look older. Cause I was like 21 and fresh out of college. 

Michael: (10:58)

Yeah. And so all these people were paying money to pitch this guy. It was his first week on the job. And he was like right out of college. How do you think that's going to go? 

Phil: (11:07)

Okay. All right. So that's a really so similar screenplay contests.

Michael: (11:12)

There. And I didn't even know that was a thing until you told me about it. And I was like, oh, that's a thing. Um, 

Phil: (11:17)

Well, we see a lot of members of your course submitting to screenplay contests and pitch fests and interesting. It's interesting. 

Michael: (11:24)

And some like, from what you've told me, there are two big ones, right? There's the Nichols, which I was like, but now I am aware of.

Phil: (11:29)

That's through the academy. The academy does that. And they pick like 10 or 12 different screenplays specifically features that they think have what it takes and they give them a grant to just be writers to finish that script. Right. So it's a big deal.

Michael: (11:42)

And then, and then it's on it's 

Phil: (11:45)

Right. So Sundance has a script and that's a little bit different because you're submitting information to join the, the, to become a fellow, a Sundance fellow. So you're joining either the director's lab, the writer's lab, the editorial lab, the documentary labs. And that's changed recently. And I've had, you know, fortuitously I've been able to attend to those. I've been a Spanish English translator for three years at the, at the screenwriting labs and one year at the director's labs. So yeah, definitely worth it. And that's an interesting thing too, for anyone sitting there, you know, they told me they're not just looking for a good script. They're looking for someone with a body of work. They're looking for a creative, with a specific vision or a specific story to tell and famous people like Tika Waititi who's blowing up right now. Uh, Ryan Coogler, they're all Sundance Fellow. So it's a legitimate, um, no, that's not even a competition now. It's, you're applying to be a fellow. Right. 

Michael: (12:43)

The other 

Phil: (12:43)

Ones that there are a couple of like, there's big, Big Break and like Final Draft and stuff like that. They, they have their own competitions. And I think there's some value in those because they do have actual industry professionals showing up to judge those and be involved. Does that make sense? Okay. Okay. But, but I definitely, you know, from my background in the independent world, I have seen the other side of this, where you go on different, um, screenwriting contest or film festivals, and you submit to win awards at these competitions. And it's basically like one or two guys, maybe a group of five to 10 people. And they're doing it as a way of bringing culture to their town or their small town. And a lot of time, what I've seen is that it's a money grab. It's a way to. You're making money and I'm making a living because every single person who submits on Film Freeway, and there's a couple others they're paying like 40 bucks a submission for these. 

Michael: (13:40)

Maybe we shouldn't mention any names.

Phil: (13:41)

Yeah. Well, film the Film Freeway is the software where you say, okay, it's not an actual film festival. Okay, good. Right. So I, I, you know, I've been to some great film festivals and I think it's a lot of the networking that I have has come from attending film festivals because there are a hungry filmmakers who attend those things.

Michael: (13:59)

But, but not as like a contest, not yet.

Phil: (14:03)

Exactly. But they do have a screenwriting contest portion where you can submit your screenplay and you just pay a nominal 20 to 40 bucks for us to review your screenplay and enter the competition. Right. 

Michael: (14:15)

But it's not like, you know, I think the best case scenario you can hope for any of these is like maybe an agent will find you. Right. I mean, it's not like you're going to the network is, would say let's put it on the air. 

Phil: (14:26)

Hopefully someone there. And what I've seen is typically the experts who are sitting on the panels and attending and watching films or judging those things, they tend to be some of the better contacts you get out of those events. Okay. But from your perspective, like, it doesn't really seem like you find much value in a screenplay contest. 

Michael: (14:43)

I didn't even know they were a thing and I've been doing this for 26 years. So, but maybe that's just my ignorance. Um, you know, so it's not like the winner's live land on my lap when I'm hiring, they don't land on my lap. Maybe they land, maybe if the big contest lands on an agent's lap and the agent will submit... submit it to me, that might, that might work, you know, but it's not, it's not a direct pipeline to success and I'm the guy doing the hiring. 

Phil: (15:05)

Right. Right. So that's interesting. Okay. Lastly, um, and I, you know, we've never really had a conversation about this, but um, how familiar are you with The Blacklist? 

Michael: (15:16)

Um, I remember helping my partner. I sold a screenplay a couple screenplays years ago. It was, we were hoping, cause it never got, we didn't get me, but most screenplays for theatricals don't they do not get made. And so we were praying that it would get on The Black List just because it would be an honor. And it would be that kind of, it helps to market yourself, Hey, look, I'm on the black list and it's hard to get off of The Black List to get produced, but occasionally it does happen. Um, but I, you know, it didn't happen. We didn't, we didn't make The Black List for, I don't know. Yeah. I don't, I think it's like a bunch of industry. People have to read it and they have to unanimously think that, Hey, this is really good. I don't think it made it. It was ours was even that widely circulated. So I don't think it was even an option. 

Phil: (15:56)

There's two sides to it. So yeah, you can be put on The Black List and this is, again, this could be wrong. So if you have more information for watching this on YouTube comment below or let us know, and we'll address this in a future podcast, but my understanding is it is, um, industry professionals basically submit you and vote and say, these are the best screenplays that were unproduced this year and films like Arrival who come off The Black List and been made. Right. Um, yeah, but then there's the other side of it where you can submit your screenplay and get feedback from industry insiders. 

Michael: (16:28)

Right. And now, you know, I'm not even, I'm not on the feature end, I'm in the TV. So I don't The Black List. They don't really take pilots. Do they... It's more Theatrical? 

Phil: (16:37)

Uh, I don't know. I think they take pilots. I think you can submit to television as well, but it definitely definitely theatrical focused. So yeah. That's another thing. We'll look at it too, but if anyone knows just comment and let us know. 

Michael: (16:48)

Yes. It's an honor to get on it and I know it's hard to get off of it, you know, to get produced, but uh, yeah. I don't know much about it. Okay. How much in the honor game, I just want to get money. Right. 

Phil: (16:58)

Okay. All right. So, so what do you think it is then? How aside from the Michael Jamin answer of be a great writer... how do you get an agent? 

Michael: (17:07)

Well, it's really, it's really what, what do you bring to the table? And it's not your willingness to work as a, as a writer, as a screenwriter. That's not anything, you know, like I said, if you bring to the table, your connections, if you are already on a show as, as, as a PA or the staff or a writer's assistant, and you're this close to popping and breaking in, and the showrunners was like, you, they want to hire you that you're bringing a lot to the table. You're already getting that first job basically. Or if you have a, like Sarah Cooper, if you already have a built-in marketing platform with a billion followers on Facebook, whatever the hell is on, you know, you, that you have that audience. So it's much easier. And it's, it's, it's sad, but that's just how it goes these days. It's not so much about talent. It's also about what do you bring to the table? 

Michael: (17:53)

Hi guys, it's Michael Jamin. I wanted to take a break from talking and talk just a little bit more. I think a lot of you, people are getting bad advice on the internet. Many of you want to break into the industry as writers or directors or actors, and some of you are paying for this advice on the internet. It's just bad. And as a working TV writer and showrunner, this burns my butt. So my goal is to flush a lot of this bad stuff out of your head and replace it with stuff that's actually going to help you. So I post daily tips on social media, go follow me @MichaelJaminWriter. You can find me on Instagram and Facebook and TikTok. And let's be honest, if you don't have time, like just two minutes a day towards improving your craft, it's not going to happen. So go make it happen for me at @MichaelJaminWriter. Okay. Now back to my previous rant. 

Phil: (18:39)

I guess here's the next question. What's the difference between an agent and a manager? 

Michael: (18:43)

Let me know. And I have both, um...

Phil: (18:46)

I, I have an external perspective of what I've learned from trying to get these over years, but...

Michael: (18:52)

What are they telling you? 

Phil: (18:53)

Yeah, so, so the agent's job is legally to sell the script. Like they, they're the only one qualified to sell a script. They cannot, managers cannot make deals, but managers bring people on and basically work through and support the project, give notes, provide feedback, and build relationships for that writer. 

Michael: (19:13)

Yeah, they do that in the beginning. You know, I was kind of being a little glib, but our agent, you know, our agent was the one who got us, our first job. And so yes, agents submit and they get you that job. And then as we rose up through the ranks eventually become high. So high that it's actually kind of hard to get a job on a staff. The next step is basically have your own show. And so you're either going to be a showrunner or maybe the second in command. And so to be a showrunner, or to get your, to sell your show, you often need to sell your project with talent. And so a manager can usually hook you up with talent. There are other clients, and that's how it's worked in the past. We've done, um, we've sold shows with, uh, like comedians, like mostly big name comedians that they pair us up with their other clients. And so that's what a manager can do is cause more of a long-term thing, but they don't. Yeah, you're right. They can't make deals. They can't really submit you stuff like that. And, and they also, a manager can own, not that this is a plus, but they could own a percentage of your project. They can, they can help you produce it. Whereas a manager or agents can't do that. Right. 

Phil: (20:16)

But, but, and so this is an interesting thing. So, um, do you know what the current, what the rate is for a manager versus an agent? 

Michael: (20:24)

Uh, well, our agent takes 10% and so does our manager. 

Phil: (20:27)

Yeah. And I have heard of instances where managers isn't taken up to 15%. 

Michael: (20:31)

Yeah. Yeah. And then there's nothing left for the writer. 

Phil: (20:35)

And then you have your attorney fees. Right. Which is like 5 cents.

Michael: (20:37)

That's 5%. Yeah.

Phil: (20:38)

So right out of the gate, you're between 25 to 30% of your income. Yeah. Plus taxes after that. Right. Yeah. But, but this is an interesting point. I've again, I come from a sales and capitalistic background of I have goods and I'm trying to sell goods. And so are there a lot of people who don't have that background who say, well, why would I want to give away 10% of my project and my responses will, 10% of zero is still zero that's. Right. Right. So if your manager can make the introduction and provide the asset to get the job done, right. Making connection with that actor who will go in and you can pitch that project with them and the agent does the job of closing that deal and getting you the best deal they can then that's money well paid because you're now getting 70% of whatever you sold instead of 100% of nothing.

Michael: (21:28)

Yeah. And there was only recently, like about a year ago, it'd be writers, Guild, uh, severed ties with all, all agents. So you had to drop your agent because, uh, the deal was, you know, there was, there was some shenanigans going on. So, uh, the writers had to kind of sever tires. And so we had to rely on our manager for work during then. And then of course it's been, it's been settled, but yeah, now we have an agent and a manager and a lawyer.

Phil: (21:54)

Awesome. Okay. All right. So what do, what, so we've talked about like we understand what to expect from them. Um, what else do you think, what else do you think is important to know about an agent and a manager? 

Michael: (22:04)

Well, an agent, this is kind of important, but agents, you know, I think that most people think, well, my agent would go and get me a job. They'll they'll hustle like the agent. That's not really the accurate, the agent's job is more like to field offers. So when the phone rings, "Hey, we need a writer," or, "Hey, we want to hire Michael Jamin and Sivert Glarum, his partner." And they, then the agent was stepping. They feel the offers. They're not going to hustle and fight too much because they have other clients, they have to maintain relationships. And if a deal goes south, like if, like, let's say, uh, you know, I, we have a pilot and it goes south, how hard is my agent gonna fight for me? I don't know. I, I suspect not too hard because he wants to make, he still wants to keep his relationship with the network or the studio, a good one because he has other clients to serve. 

Michael: (22:50)

So if you become too much of a squeaky wheel, if you become with your, when you have your agent and you start crying all the time, like in the movies, you'll see, oh, this happens all the time. Like, uh, you'll see a STR, a writer calling his agent what's going on. And I, and the agency I agents handholding. And then don't worry about me. I'm promising, I'm working hard for you like that. Does that call doesn't exist? I don't bother my agent with that kind of nonsense because you know, he's not a babysitter. And if I make myself too much of a nuisance, uh, he's not going to work for me. He's going to find somebody else to work for. 

Phil: (23:22)

Right. Makes sense. Makes sense. Okay. Yeah. 

Michael: (23:27)

All right. I wish I was a big, if I was a real big shot, then I could do that. But, um, you know, 

Phil: (23:32)

Okay, well, which, so which one do you think is easier? Like if I, if I'm a new writer, which one do you think is the easiest to get and where should I put my time and energy? 

Michael: (23:39)

I think it's probably easier to get a manager. I think there are, uh, yeah, I think in the beginning, and by the way, there, there are four big, as you mentioned, there are four big talent agencies in Hollywood. There's ICM, CAA, William Morris Endeavor, and UTA, United talent agency, and then are much smaller there are next tier, you know, Paradigm and APA there... and then there's some small boutique agencies coming out of the gate. You are not going to, no new writer is going to land it at UTA. 

Michael: (24:07)

Yeah. Unless you're in a situation right. Where you're an overnight success like this girl right who. Right. It's like, is that it's like CAA is like, okay, you, we have a rare opportunity here to capitalize on an audience, so we should take her on.

Michael: (24:21)

And, and so you, you most likely to start at a small agency and that's so fine, your agent will give you attention. That's good. But there's an advantage to being a big one, which is, for example, when more staffing on a show, the first call I make is to my agent. And I say, Hey, um, I need, we need writers. Submit me your writers. I need young baby writers. And so that's how it works. They like the first call is my agency to send me his, his writers. And those are the first ones I'll read. And if there's a good one, I'll hire that one. Why? Because I'm trying to make good with my agent. I'm trying to keep him happy. So, you know, but if there's no one that's right for the show, then I go to the next agency, you know? Um, that's how that works.

Phil: (25:04)

Got it. Got it. But a manager would be the easiest way to approach this. 

Michael: (25:08)

The manager will help... a good manager will help you land an agent too. 

Phil: (25:12)

Because they may have connections, right? Yeah. Right. They are a matchmaker. All right. That makes a lot of sense. So, but this all being said, you know, I shouldn't even bother writing until I have one or the other. Right. Because ultimately I need these things to sell myself. 

Michael: (25:26)

Yeah. No, you got to start. You have to always write. You have to always, right. I, um, you know, uh, the, there are, I can't remember what the numbers are. I ran the numbers, but there are slightly more active players in the NFL, including the practice squad. Yeah. There's slightly more working TV writers than there are at players in the NFL. Just a little bit more. I think it's like 2200 versus 2,800. It's not a lot of people. So if you were going to be in the NFL, do you know if your goal is to be in the NFL? Do you work out once a week or do you work out every single day? You know, 

Phil: (26:02)

Uh, I was, uh, I was just listening to a Joe Rogan podcast this morning. And he's talking about this UFC fighter, Conor McGregor, which I don't know if you know who he is. He's kind of Conor McGregor recently was in a fight with a guy named Dustin Porier and it was round three was their third fight. And Connor broke his shin in the middle of the fight. Yeah. Shattered it. And people were like, oh, he's old. And, and he should give up. And ultimately Joe Rogan made this point. He's like, that dude is a Savage because it was a known injury. It had it scanned. He already had a broken leg when he went in and he still went in, he still fought. And he was still kicking with that, leg, right. And he went in balls to the walls at the beginning, swinging as hard as he could try and to knock Dustin Poirer you out because that's who he is. 

Phil: (26:45)

And you have to keep in mind, this man has half a million, half a billion dollars in the bank. Oh wow. Because of other fights he's won sort of fight with that intensity to be that dedicated to your career, proves the level of integrity of energy and effort you need to be in. And they made this point. They said, you know, if I'm a professional athlete, you can be a good boxer and learn, takedown defense. You can stop someone with jujitsu or wrestling and you can get pretty far, but to be an elite level champion, you have to know jujitsu and you have to be really good at it. You have to know boxing, you have to know wrestling. You have to go to the cardio gym and you have to be working on all these facets of your craft to be a world champion. And, and it's, it's something most people are not willing to, to do. 

Michael: (27:31)

No, they just say, I have a script. Can't you get me work. Yeah. You know? 

Phil: (27:35)

Yeah. What can you do for me is I think the attitude I see a lot. 

Michael: (27:39)

Yeah. Yeah. Um, it's the other way around. It's what, you know. Yeah. 

Phil: (27:45)

The point, like, if you're playing, like if you consider that NFL analogy, it's it's you are playing at the elite level. Like how many high school athletes don't make it to division one football. Yeah. How many division one football players don't make it to the NFL combine, let alone get drafted, let alone play. 

Michael: (28:06)

And you're coming after my job. You think I'm going to let you have my job. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So, and I've been doing this for, for 26 years. I'm the NFL player who you, you haven't heard of, but man, that guy's still kicking around? Yeah. He's still on the team. Wow. Good for him. Yeah. That's why. Yeah. 

Phil: (28:22)

Yeah, because you put in the work, right. It's you know, and not, they're not people who work at coffee shops. Right. Or right at coffee shops, but something you told me when I first moved to LA is, you know, real writers are too busy to spend time at coffee shops. 

Michael: (28:34)

It's every time I, whenever I hear a writer friend saying they're typing, they're working at Starbucks. I always laugh. Like, come on, man. Right. It's so cliche. Don't do that. It's very rare. Most of the people who are working in Starbucks who are tapping on their computers, at least in LA, right? Yeah. They want you to think that they're a right. Look at me, I'm a writer. But if you are a real writer in my experience, it's like, you're not working in a coffee shop. You're working. 

Phil: (28:54)

And I'm sure that that's what we call "seamers" where I come from. They seem like they're doing the job, right? Yeah. 

Michael: (29:01)

Yeah. They want you to think that they're doing work. Like I caught me, I got a terrible, my opinion is a terrible place to work. It's not comfortable. The seats are hard. 

Phil: (29:10)

There's no whiteboard. 

Michael: (29:12)

Yeah. In a whiteboard. Like why would you work at a coffee shop of all places? 

Phil: (29:15)

Yeah. All right. So ultimately it comes back to the same thing we've been saying the whole time is ultimately you have to be good at your craft and not just good. You have to be great. I think that was one of the most helpful notes that you gave me. Uh, we talked about the spec script that I wrote or was, uh, a spec Mr. Robot for my TV writing class and... And you read it and he gave me a great note. You said is obvious. You're a competent writer and this is really good. The bad news is it's not great. Yeah. And that has stuck with me for two years. It's like, it has to be great to stand out. 

Michael: (29:48)

Where you're constantly working on it. So, you know, you have an advantage over people. You already have a huge advantage over everybody else. And that you are now an industry insider because you are working on the TV show. And because of that, you are around scripts and you're reading scripts and you're, you're around other writers and you're learning, you know, that's a huge advantage that you will, but that was because you made a sacrifice. You moved here. 

Phil: (30:09)

Yeah. Well, and it's, it is expensive and it is hard. And I could be living a very, completely, a completely different lifestyle if I lived anywhere else but California or in LA. Um, I think I read recently that the, the ave... The average income in America, is like is $36,000, but LA county considers the average cost of living your $53k.

Michael: (30:29)

A year. And that sounds low. 

Phil: (30:31)

Yeah. Like, like it's, it's a crazy expensive town, but you know, I will say that one of the benefits of busting my butt as a writer's PA and doing my best to provide as much value as I could in that position is they brought me back on to be a, an office PA, which was a position I'd already had. And then I also got brought in to be the post PA. And I've been working on the same show for two full seasons now nonstop because they like you. Yeah. But the cool thing is I get to see how you guys break the story. I get to read every draft. You can see how it changes. I get to go into production. I get to see how they shoot the show. I get to see what changes happen, the day of shooting. And then I get to go and post and I get to watch the showrunners, make that final cut of their show and make those decisions. And I've learned far more being a PA than I think I've ever learned in film school. 

Michael: (31:25)

Right. Are you sitting in on the mix 

Phil: (31:27)

Too? I probably could if I asked that this point, um, but I make it very clear that I don't, I'm not trying to get anything from anyone. So, I I've been invited and I probably could at any point, but you know, I'm here to run tapes around LA, right. That's my job. And I'll do it and I'll do it as fast as I can. 

Michael: (31:46)

All right. So good attitude. It's got a good attitude. 

Phil: (31:50)

Cool. 

Michael: (31:52)

All right. That's a good, that's a good episode of the podcast. 

Phil: (31:55)

I think. Very helpful. Yeah, absolutely. 

Michael: (31:57)

All right, everyone, thank you for listening. And we got more coming up, so, uh, you know, I don't know. What do you gotta do? So you gotta subscribe to podcasts. Is that what you do? 

Phil: (32:04)

Yeah. Make sure you subscribe, make sure you leave a review at this point. Give us that five stars. It helps with our rankings. Uh, make sure you share it on your social media. If there's something you find valuable. And then I would also encourage everyone to follow you on social media. 

Michael: (32:17)

Yes, please do. Uh, yeah. I'm at, especially Instagram @MichaelJaminWriter. I post daily tips on Instagram. So Coco. 

Phil: (32:24)

Yeah, absolutely. The right thing to go fall in there. I think that, um, the members of your course specifically who said that the content you're putting out on social media or their gems of information, and they've already been through your course, 

Michael: (32:38)

It's funny that they say people, I, people will say that it could, this is gold. And I'm like, I, I might, when I post on my social media posts, well, this is gold. I'm like, no, 

Michael: (32:46)

Dude, the gold is in the course. I wouldn't give you the gold. This is really, this is just really good. They're really, really good stuff. Isn't it? Is in the course.

Phil: (32:53)

Yeah. So it's good stuff. So check out the course again. And um, you know, I think one of the students in your course, you said, you know, if you can save up the money, it will be the most transformative course you'll ever take and he's taken multiple courses just like I have. And you know, I could talk all day about how much I love the course, and I'm glad it's there and you know, grateful that it's improved my writing. So thank you. Thank you. Okay. And we'll see everyone next week. 

Michael: (33:18)

Very good. Bye-bye now 

Phil: (33:32)

This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing leaving a review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. If you're looking to support yourself, I encourage you to consider investing in Michael's screenwriting course at MichaelJamin.com/course. I've known Michael for over a decade. And in the past seven years, I've begged him to put something together. During the global COVID-19 pandemic. Michael had time. And I have to say, I wish I'd had this course 10 years ago. As someone who has personally invested in most online courses, earned a bachelor's degree, and actively studied screenwriting for over a decade, this course has been more valuable to me than most of the effort I've put in because it focuses on something noone else teaches: story. In his course, Michael pulls back the curtain and shows you exactly what the pros do in a writer's room and that knowledge has made all the difference for me. And I know it will for you too. You can find more information at MichaelJamin.com/course for free daily screenwriting tips. Follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

In this episode, Michael and Phil tackle the subject of staffing a TV show. Get answers to common questions and see what a working Showrunner is looking for when hiring new staff writers.

Michael's Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Michael: (00:00)

You're listening to screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael Jamin.

Michael: (00:08)

All right, everyone. Welcome back today. We're talking about how shows are staffed and how you can get on a staff and all that stuff.

Phil: (00:15)

That's what I want to know. Let's do this.

Michael: (00:16)

That's what you want to pay attention to I'll take notes. All right. Well basically, you know, when a show gets greenlit to go into production, the showrunner is hired first. If that's not the person who, who sold the show, it could be sometimes it's like a younger person might sell the show with less experience than they team up that person with an experienced showrunner, whatever let's say you are. Or

Phil: (00:36)

I have a question about that. So let's say that I sell a pilot and they are like, Hey, you need a show runner here. A bunch of people. And I'm like, I got a guy, his name was Michael Jamin, his writing partner, Sivert. I want them to run my show. They vet you guys. They like you. They're okay with it. Am I get a creator title right? Created by probably shared with you is my guess.

Michael: (00:58)

It depends. eh, I, you know, it could be also developed someone like a developed by, or if this case, if you truly created the show by yourself, and then I'm brought on later after mixing on air and I don't get any creative, I just I'm Executive Producer. I don't get a creative background.

Phil: (01:12)

Okay. And then you are the showrunner. What would my title be? Would I be an M assuming I'd be an EAP because I created the show.

Michael: (01:22)

Not necessarily. Yeah, not they, you have to negotiate for all that. Um, you could be maybe a producer. They would, might give you if you've had no experience, they might give you a producer title, but they, they might not make you an executive producer and that's not up to that's up to what you knew associate with the studio, you know?

Phil: (01:39)

Interesting. And I think from our last conversation, those aren't technically writer's Guild, guaranteed titles, right? Those are new sorta titles. Yeah.

Michael: (01:48)

Yeah. And it's what you can, it's what you can negotiate. I mean, I, yeah, I'm not sure if yeah. I was going to try my, remember we ran a show for the firm, the guy. Yeah. I know for a fact, the guy who created was not executive producer, so yeah. It's you have to negotiate it. So whatever, you can get your first show, you don't have a lot of you don't have a lot of, uh, cards, you know?

Phil: (02:08)

Yeah. Okay. So who in that room? I it's my show. I sold it. You're the show runner who has ultimate creative say

Michael: (02:18)

I the showrunner, but, um, the short Warner's going to try to keep, if the sermons are a decent person, we'll try to keep that the other guy or woman to create happy. You don't really want them, but you have to defer, like, that's why they bring on the show runner. Because like, you're the one with the experience. You don't want hunter who has, it knows how to talk to the network and deal with the actors. And ultimately you, you know, you have that.

Phil: (02:39)

Yeah. And ultimately you work for the S for the network. Right. But they could technically fire you if you put up too much of a fight. Right. Because it's,

Michael: (02:49)

Anyone could get fired. Everyone is on the chopping block. So, you know, you don't, you want to be respectful and you don't want to, you know, destroy their vision. But ultimately, you know, that's the why that's why you're being brought on. So I've never had a situation where it became like a struggle of egos. And like now we're doing it my way, usually that the inexperienced writer will, will kind of naturally defer to the showrunner just because, you know, you have the experience. Yeah.

Phil: (03:17)

Got it. Okay. That's a bit of a digression, but go ahead. Continue. We're talking about to how we get staffed on a show.

Michael: (03:24)

So usually the show runner will have the first person that they're showing or we'll hire is the, is the second in command. Usually the higher it goes in that order, they usually hire up ha they hire from the top down. So they hire like a co-executive producer or someone was a supervisor and producer. And then finally, if there's any money left over, maybe you'll, you'll throw in, um, a staff writer. That's traditionally how some, but not necessarily how it's done anymore. They've kind of make their kind of changing things now.

Phil: (03:50)

Okay. So let me, let me ask another question here. When you're making those hiring decisions, how much are you actually looking at budgets to say, like, I know this coach VP has this rate and that's gonna affect my writer's room budget this much.

Michael: (04:04)

I honestly, I'm not even privy to that stuff. They try, you know, they don't even tell you. They often they'll say, we'll see what we can do. Or often this, the studio will say, well, it's important for us to have a lot of voices in this room. Uh, we don't really care about experience. And so they'll say, this is what you're going to get. I've been on shows where like they say, Nope, you know, I, where I've tried to hire people with experience and I've gotten vetoed by the higher ups who say, no, we want you to have more writers and fewer, like, I'm always, like, in my opinion, I'd rather have someone a really skilled co-executive producer who knows story and who really can turn into a great draft. That's the most important thing to me when I'm running a show, but the studios often have other decisions. They like, no, we want to make sure we have X amount of writers on this show. It doesn't matter if they're never written a word before in their life, but that

Phil: (04:53)

That's where they want. Got it. So in that situation, have they said, well, unfortunately you're not able to make that offer because it eats up too much budget or is that anything that comes up like, yeah,

Michael: (05:03)

No, we don't want to hire this person. That person doesn't check out with us, find somebody else. And it's like, oh great. You know, got it. And it's not that we want to hire our friends. We want to hire people that we've worked with, that we know can do the job. Right.

Phil: (05:15)

So, because ultimately the writer's job is to make your showrunner job easier because you have so many hats you're wearing.

Michael: (05:22)

Yeah. All I really care about is can this person write a good draft or do I have to do a page one rewrite? So, you know, that's like, I don't, that's all I really care about is that will the draft come in? Good.

Phil: (05:35)

Got it. Okay. So you're saying that now things have changed though, and some shows are kind of doing things differently in regards to staff writers. Yeah.

Michael: (05:43)

I, I, you know, in some degree, like I'm talking about the, the industry is changing so fast that, uh, you know, the orders for shows are becoming because of streaming and cable. And you know, in the old days when I was coming up, there was four networks and you get 22 episodes a year, but now it's streaming and you meet, you do 10 a year or 80 year, and the budgets are getting smaller and smaller. And so they won't hire the writers for the entire production to show. Maybe they'll just hire writers for the pre-production of the show. And so, you know, it's the rules, it's a very fluid situation. So

Phil: (06:15)

Got it, got it. Okay. So what a, and we've talked kind of extensively at this point about there's one skillset. You need to have to make it as a staff writer. And that is to be able to write a good episode of tell

Michael: (06:28)

And that's hard to do so failing that. Can you contribute in some meaningful way and without like gumming up the works and you would think that's an easy thing that you would think that'd be a low threshold. But apparently that seems to be a hard, hard bar to cross for a lot of people, because a lot of new writers simply gum up the works because they want it. They want to talk as much, or they feel like they should be contributing as much as the higher up writers. But the higher up writers are getting paid easily five times as much as a lower writer. And so the low writers thinks, well, if that writer just spoke, you know, for 10 minutes, I better say something for 10 minutes. And I was like, but no, that person's getting paid way more than you, that they have to talk.

Michael: (07:09)

They were quiet. You know, they are supposed to carry more of a load, but some new writers just don't quite understand that. And so by matching, they feel like, well, I have to do my here's my 10 minutes. I better keep talking. Uh, it's like, Ugh, you know, that doesn't help actually. But there are other ways you can meaningful contribute a great way to contribute for a new staff writer. Most people don't realize this is sometimes they, they want to fight for their own ideas. They take up time arguing for their ideas. And it's not like we don't want to do their ideas. We just want to do whatever the best idea we can get our hands on. And if there's this one of the best ideas I want, we'll take someone else's best idea. So a great way that a staff writer can contribute instead of fighting for your own ideas is when someone has an idea that gets a little traction, see if you can build on their idea. So it's not your idea you're building on theirs. Yeah.

Phil: (07:54)

And now you've given me a note in the past that you got a great piece of advice when you were a young writer about finding a different way around. Do you want to talk about that? Yeah.

Michael: (08:02)

Yeah. And now I, that was, I learned that as a staff writer on just shoot me and I got that piece of advice from a writer named marsh McCall. And he was, uh, at the time he was, he had just come off with Conan where he was the head writer on the Conan O'Brien show. And I remember struggling the first few weeks trying to like, we would be pitching a joke and, or a story area, and everyone was so fast and so quick with it. And I was like, I w first they'd say something funny and then I'd spend the next 10 minutes laughing as if I was in, you know, in the audience of the show and just in complete off them. But I had to contribute in some way. And so we pitch on a line and like, how do I beat them for this joke?

Michael: (08:41)

I just couldn't do it. And one day I marched took me aside and I kind of confided to him what I was struggling with. And he goes, oh, well, here's what you do. Instead of everyone, if everyone's racing towards this one joke, trying to climb over the hill to get to this one joke, you're never going to beat these people. Cause they're pros, they're faster, they're better, they're stronger. They're funnier. You have to find a way around. You have to go under the health. You have to go around the hill, you have to dig a hole, you can get to the sand, but you have to get a different way there. And I, and to me that freed everything up, that little analogy helped me so much. I was like, oh, okay. I don't have to follow them. I can, I can cheat. I can find another way around to get to the end, the end. Funny. I, you know, I can think of a different way to get to a punchline that isn't necessarily the same pit, the way everyone else is pitching. I can think of a different way to approach the joke and that freed everything up. And after that, I kind of became all, I kind of came alive in the room and then I had my confidence soared and I was like, oh, I can do this job. That's a, before that I thought I was gonna be fired. Yeah,

Phil: (09:36)

No kidding. So, so do you have any example of what that would look like? It's so hard. I know it's putting you on the spot.

Michael: (09:43)

It is it's but it's like, I, you know, I remember like if you're pitching a joke about, uh, Nina being a non-event horn, who was a kind of like, she, she used to drink a lot and maybe everyone's pitching a joke about her being a drunk. And, and we're trying to think of a funny way to talk about that. If you came out of it a different way, instead of trying to get to the drunk part, get to the part where she's promiscuous or something, you know, just do something else that no one else is thinking about. Cause it's not like we have to come up with a line about her drinking too much. It could be, you know, it, it could be another way to approach the problem. Um, uh, yeah. And so I wish I could think of a better example, but it's always been about, um, just not following everybody, come up with your own way to get around the problem.

Phil: (10:26)

That's a, I think it's powerful, powerful advice for anybody who is struggling with that. So what would you consider to be the no-nos of a staff writer?

Michael: (10:36)

Well, there's a, there's a phrase that's often heard in, in TV writing rooms. It's it's pitch don't. And so that means it's so much easier for a staff writer. And again, I include myself in this because I was just as guilty. It's so hard to come up with something usable and good, but it's very easy to take a dump on someone else's idea and to explain why your idea is no good. Why it won't work. That's extremely easy, but it's not productive. And so that's. So you never really want to point out a problem unless you have a solution. You know, and I that's, that's been my mantra to the, to this day. It's like, I don't point it up. I just come up with solutions, you know?

Phil: (11:17)

Yeah. I've heard other people refer to this as being the doctor know that. Yeah, no,

Michael: (11:23)

You know, it's funny you say that sometimes people will say to play devil's advocate and my partner always says, he always interrupts. He goes, well, whoa, are we playing devil's advocate now? I didn't realize, let me get out of the board game. We're not playing devil's advocate. You know, we're making a TV show.

Phil: (11:38)

Yeah. Right.

Michael: (11:39)

So no doubt that the devil, by the way, devil does need an advocate. Devil does pretty well on his own. So he doesn't need any help from you.

Phil: (11:47)

Right. Right. Okay. So, so I can, I know that there are some observations I've made in writer's rooms with what young writers have done. That seem odd to me. Tell me if, tell me if these are no-nos, um, having a pad of paper out and just doodling the entire time while everyone's talking.

Michael: (12:06)

And that happens, uh, you gotta have balls. Cause they see some older writers doing that, a more experienced writers. Even. That's not really a good form. Like it's an, and I'm guilty of it too. I'd take out my phone and I'm looking at my phone. You should definitely shouldn't. You should not

Phil: (12:19)

Be. That was my next to national

Michael: (12:22)

phone away. And I'm guilty of it. But some people, sometimes they do it all and maybe they think it helps their expression, but it doesn't like it releases their mind and releases their creativity. But to the other people, maybe it does, maybe that's the truth, but to the outside bystanders, it just looks like you're doodling your board away. Yeah. It looks at your right. So put that away. Um, I don't, I'm not a good doodler, so I don't have that problem. All right.

Phil: (12:46)

So say I'm a new staff writer, what time? And the writer's room starts at 9:00 AM. What time should I be there? If it's

Michael: (12:52)

No writer's room starts at 9:00 AM. Right. And it usually starts at 10. The writers or writers are always like that's show up to work at later. Um, but I'd say it was a 10. You get your in the seat at nine 50 and you don't want to be the last per, you never want to be the last person to sit. You never want to leave the showrunner waiting for you. I see that happen all the time. Like, are you out of your mind? Don't wait. You know, no man being in your seat before everyone else. And I, and even now as a co-executor I'm in, if I, if I'm not running the show, I'm in my seat before everyone else, it just seems wrong to keep the boss waiting.

Phil: (13:26)

Right. Okay. So next, um, let's say that the writer's PA comes in and he's taken everyone's lunch orders. How much time slash how picky should I be with my order?

Michael: (13:38)

Oh, wow. Yeah. I haven't really thought about that. Uh, if you can make it funny, then you can take as much time as you want, you know? Cause if you make the other writers laugh about how you deliberate, uh, you know, over your lunch order, that could be a funny routine. But um, if not, uh, then you're just a pre-madonna, you know, don't just pick something out and move it on. You don't want to hold, you don't want to hold up the room. You don't want to be often in a writer's room. People are goofing around and they're just having fun and that's fine, but you never want to be the last person or the first person to go far out. But that's you let someone else be the last person. Cause you don't want to, you don't want the boss say, all right guys, settle down. You know, you don't want to be the last person to open your mouth. And even like today, I'm always considered of that guy, you know? And I'm, I'm in a pretty safe boat. I'm a, Co-Executive Producer with a lot of experience. So I wouldn't make that mistake. So why would a rookie writer make that mistake?

Phil: (14:28)

All right. What are there, have you seen any other big mistakes or subtle mistakes? Even that, uh, beginning staff writers were making?

Michael: (14:36)

Yeah. It's sometimes they'll fight the fight. The showrunner on what the tone of the show should be. You know? And it's like, man, this man or woman just sold the show, they sold it. It's that they got a show on there. That's pretty impressive. If you don't agree with them, then get your own show. This is their shot. And we are all here to help them get, realize their vision. Even if you don't not like their vision, it's their vision. Even if you think it's their, vision's going to get the show canceled. It's there, that's on them. We here to help them.

Michael: (15:12)

Hi guys. Michael Jamin here. I wanted to take a break from talking and talk just a little bit more. I think a lot of you guys are getting bad advice on the internet. I know this because I'm getting tagged. One guy tagged me with this. He said, I heard from a script reader in the industry and I was like, wait, what? Hold on, stop. My head blew up. I blacked out. And when I finally came to, I was like, listen, dude, there are no script readers in the industry by definition. These are people on the outside of the industry. They work part-time. They give their right arm to be in the industry. And instead they're giving you advice on what to do and you're paying for this. I mean, it just made me nuts, man. These people are unqualified to give my dog advice. By the way her script is coming along quite nicely.

Michael: (15:51)

And oh, and I'm a done another thing when I work with TV writers for a new one, I'm writing stamps. A lot of these guys flame out after 13 episodes. So they get this big break, they find it, they get in and then they flame out because they don't know what is expected of them on the job. And that said, because you know, it's not going to happen again. So to fight all this, to flush all this bad stuff out of your head, I post daily tips on social media. You can find me on Instagram and TikTok and Facebook @MichaelJaminwriter. If you don't have time, two minutes a day to devote towards improving your craft guys, it's not going to happen. Let's just be honest. So go find, make it happen. All right. Now, back to my previous,

Phil: (16:33)

Do you feel like you've seen that throughout your 26 years? Is it a common problem or do, would you say it's becoming more of a problem with younger reps?

Michael: (16:41)

You know, as I get older, eh, you millennials, but um, I, I see it every year. I see a young writer make that mistake and get fired and I really don't get fired. They don't get asked back to season two, which is

Phil: (16:53)

Equivalently being the equivalent to being fired.

Michael: (16:55)

Yeah. Yeah. And you can, you can tell, like I remember we were on a show and, and none of the execs was like, we found this great young writer who did a show. We did a year on this very high profile show and I'm like, they only did a year. Huh. And you want to hire them and you think they're going to be, they only did a year because they were fired off that show. So they have a great credit. But if they only get a year off a hit show it's cause they were fired off that show. Why do you want this person? And I was right. I turned person turned out to be a disaster.

Phil: (17:26)

Yeah, got it. Yeah. I asked because it does seem to me as a millennial that even in my business, the millennials tend to be a little bit more entitled. They seem to think that they have a right to argue with me about how things are done. And it's not about ego. It's not about saying like, I'm right. You're wrong. Like I want to hear what they have to say. Cause I'm aware, like I may not have all the best and I hired you and I pay you money because you have unique insights that I don't have you supposed to make my job better. But you know, ultimately I recently just had someone quit because I'm toxic because I held them accountable. Right. Right. And so I I'm seeing that. And I'm wondering if that's how it translates, but it's interesting to know that it's, it's a perpetual problem. Well,

Michael: (18:13)

You know, the job of a staff writer is you're there at the, at the executive producers. Pleasure. And you're, you're there to make the, so if I picture a line or a story idea that the boss does, the showrunner does not like, or we argue over a point, like I make my case, they hear it, they make a decision and then we move on. I don't keep arguing with them. I don't try to change their mind after that. I'm like, okay, move on. You heard me good. Now I haven't heard you felt, I feel heard let's move on. I will do what you want.

Phil: (18:43)

Hmm. You know? Uh, what else can you ask for? I think, right. But yeah. You know, so ultimately it sounds like you just need to know your place and you need to read the room and you need to understand. So what I would consider to be basic social skills.

Michael: (18:54)

Yeah. There's a lot of that. A lot of basic social skills. Um, yeah. And that it's odd that people don't pick up on that. And I'm always, yeah. I always try to be aware of other people, uh, now, uh, nowadays, by the way, I meant to point out in my little, my little show notes, um, the studios are, are making definitely more of an effort for diversity and stats. And so, I mean, I, and when I see people complain on Twitter, I'm like, uh, yeah, I don't know what you're talking about. I, from what I see the, uh, they are, uh, the, the effort that they're making is very sincere and they are putting money behind it. And so they are definitely making a conscious effort to have a, you know, just a broader range of people in it so that more voices can be heard. And so if you're complaining, well, no, they're not, well maybe, cause they're not hiring you, but I see it on my end. They are hiring people like you. So

Phil: (19:44)

Yeah, no, I I've. I've seen that. Um, in the short time I've been here, there's definitely a concerted effort to get minorities and underrepresented people into shows and all shows, not necessarily just shows with an ethnic, you know, tone or voice. Exactly.

Michael: (20:00)

Right. Yeah.

Phil: (20:01)

Hmm. Well, let's go back a little bit because I think one of the things we might've passed over is like, how, how are you picking staff writers? You talked about how you go top to bottom, you know, typically higher level down, but how are you getting in contact with people? How are you finding scripts from new writers? How are you making those introductions? Okay,

Michael: (20:20)

Well usually you, you, uh, when you're running a show, you call your agent, say, Hey, we're hiring, send over your, you know, some, some young writers and they, next thing you know, you have a stack of, you know, giant stack of scripts and, uh, from your agent and from the other competing talent agencies, and you have so many scripts that y'all pick up one and I'll start reading. And if I get to bites page four or five, and if I'm not hooked on the story next, so forget about the end, forget about this idea that wait till the end, it gets great at the end. Nope. I'm not waiting. I'm picking up another script and find somebody else

Phil: (20:52)

Let's narrow in on that. If you don't mind, what is it that stands out to you in those first four pages? Like how do you know or what gives it away that this is a good writer?

Michael: (21:02)

Well, for, well, I work in mostly comedy, so there better be a really good laugh on by the end of page three. I hopefully I remember, uh, when my partner were writing specs, like, man, we want to come up page one, boom, with a big, hard joke, like a big laugh. It could be, you know, a real swing. So I'm looking for that. But also I want to know, has the story started, you know, when, how to start a story, has it begun yet? And cause until the story starts, and this is something that I talk about in my course, right? Like what does that mean? When a story starts? Uh, I go into a great detail because it's hard. It's important to understand, but if the story hasn't started by page three or four next, and by the way, you will be just as guilty. If you're watching a TV show and they don't start the story, you pick up your moat next, what else is on? So you're, you're, you're no different than me when I'm hiring, we have the same criteria, you know?

Phil: (21:53)

Got it, got it. So a big laugh they're taking, you know, they're, they're implementing the tone of the story, right?

Michael: (21:59)

Yeah. I want a big, I want a big swing man. Yeah. Go for it. And the gate, get my attention.

Phil: (22:05)

Got it. And then store it. Um, we don't need to dive too far into story. Cause I know you covered that in your course on a lot of your social media stuff. So if anyone listening, hasn't isn't following Michael check out his Instagram, uh, Michael Jamin writer. He's got a ton of tips on that stuff and that's one of the topics I always covered. All of me

Michael: (22:20)

Guys follow me. I'll lead you over the cliff.

Phil: (22:24)

You've made comments to me before, like the pied Piper

Michael: (22:28)

Cut that part out.

Phil: (22:30)

So as far as, um, you you've made comments to me before, about when you were reading these stack of scripts, you're really like the, you're looking for someone to do you a favor and to make it so you don't have to continue reading those.

Michael: (22:43)

Yeah. I'm begging like I want, it's not like I don't have like an attitude, like impressing me young. Like I'm begging, please. Someone should give me a script that really impresses me. I want to hire you so I can stop reading the other 90 scripts on my desk. I don't want to read anymore. I don't want to do that. I want to ha I, you know, and once if you're a great, if you know how to write a script, you do, you're doing me a favor because it's not the other way around. I need you on the show. You're doing me a favor and we will hire. We were, um, we were staffing on, on written link. Uh, we were reading, it's a show we ran a couple of years ago. Uh, we read a lot of scripts and I was like, ah, no, no, no, not really. No. And then one finally made its way into my desk and I was like only a few pages into it and was like, hire this guy, hire him now I don't need to read anymore. I don't want to lose him, hire him now because I don't want to read anymore. And he impressed me. And that's how, and that was that. Yeah.

Phil: (23:39)

And did that write a workout? Yeah.

Michael: (23:41)

Yeah, he was, he was very talented, you know, turning into drafts.

Phil: (23:45)

There you go. Then probably still working my guess. Yeah. That's incredible. That's awesome. Okay. So now that I'm a staff writer, um, is there anything else that you think that I need to know in terms of like, how can I be a better staff writer? Obviously it's good drafts. It's perf it's being, knowing your place in the room and fulfilling that role. But is there anything related to like, is there homework I could do, should I, obviously I should watch this show, but is there anything that helps me like pay attention to like the voice of those characters or anything like that?

Michael: (24:19)

I remember actually I think it was two years ago in Tacoma, FD, the show I'm currently co-executive producer on one of the writers came in with a list of story ideas that they wanted, they were going to pitch and I'm like, yeah, let's hear them. And most of them weren't very good, but I was like, there's gotta be something in here. And it saved me the effort of it. Cause I w I didn't have a list of ideas. I was like, I was like, yeah, if you have a great idea, let's do that. And, uh, so I thought that was really good on their part, that they were prepared and they, you know, and they had some ideas that they were brought to the table and I'm, I'm perfectly happy to pitch if they got to go to, yeah, I'm happy to pitch on that idea.

Michael: (24:52)

You know, I was like, good for you for being prepared. Other than that, it's a really good opportunity. They can use this as an opportunity to learn. And instead of being argumentative, if, you know, you'll you'll know pretty quick, which writers are the ones who can, you can learn from because they're the ones that everyone's kind of paying attention to and figure, you know, watch what they're doing and try to get on their page and try to get into their head because that's a person that education is invaluable. So you don't always have to be working. You can also be learning. Hmm.

Phil: (25:25)

Hmm. That's a good note. Awesome. You have, you have a note here on our notes. Don't need joke. People are idea people. Okay.

Michael: (25:33)

Oh, don't joke. What does that mean? Um, uh, oh, sometimes. Oh, wait. I was a question that someone asked, asked me on Instagram, um, was like, how, how does their division of labor work? Or some people just idea. People are some people just joke people. And I, that may, may have been the case back in the eighties or something when money was flowing, but now you're kind of expected to do everything. But the Mo the most important function is story. Do you understand story? Can you help contribute in that way? And that's very hard. As far as joke people, I always feel like that's, that comes in last. That's like picking the, uh, the color that you want to paint the walls. First, you have to build the house that you have to construct the house. So, uh, I was actually, yeah, so that was in response to a question like what, uh, what, you know, how does the division of labor?

Michael: (26:24)

So we talked about this in one of the other episodes we did is like, some people think that the writers' room works like, well, one writer writes for this character and the other writer writes for that character. It's like, no, no. When you put together a script, you go off, you write the script and you're writing for all the characters. And you're expected to the script, has to, the story structure has to be there. And it has to funny. So you have to be able to do both. And the trauma room. Of course, it's a little different, you don't have the burden of, uh, being funny. That's why the hours tend to be better and drama.

Phil: (26:51)

Yeah. And that's something you want still me. Um, it's easy to kill people. It's hard to make them laugh.

Michael: (26:57)

Yeah. Well, that's like an old thing and knowledge it's like dying. Uh, you know, w w was it dying? Dying is, is easy. Uh, laughter is hard. Getting people to laugh is, is, is much harder. Comedy is very, very hard. Yeah.

Phil: (27:09)

Got, got it. It doesn't have a note here. Um, don't you don't need thread polars. Is that the same thing as a doctor know? Or is it,

Michael: (27:16)

Yeah, yeah. What is this? You know, what ha well, like, but this does really make a hundred percent logic here, you know, it's was like, oh yeah, yay. You know? Yeah, yeah. A lot here comes the logic, please. Everyone hide I'm let me, of course, you know, if something is egregious, then you don't want to do it, but there are some people who think they're getting bonus points by pointing something out that like, like we've been working on this for the story air for four hours. And no one thought about it now, like, obviously it's not going to be a problem when you're watching it on TV without, you know, with your phone in your hand and read a magazine and the other so that, you know, no, one's really paying attention to that closely. Yeah.

Phil: (27:57)

Got it. All right. And then, uh, lastly, I know there's this, there's this topic that's come up a couple of times and recently happened in, in Tacoma, FDA where, you know, we have our script coordinator. Mike Rapp is just an awesome guy. He was actually given the opportunity to write a freelance episode of our show. So he wrote an episode that is airing soon. I think it's episode 3 0 4 of this upcoming season. And he's he wrote an episode, um, how to freelance episode works, uh, obviously as a staff writer, I'm assuming you're going to get the opportunity to write an episode, but yeah. How do, how do we do the freelance thing?

Michael: (28:34)

You know, the guilt has a stipulated. They, they have to, for every certain number of episodes that you produce, or in a season, a certain X number have to go to freelance. Uh, and if they don't, then the show has to pay a penalty. Often in the old days, they would often hire outside freelancers, just experienced writers. And I'm talking to the old days, like in the seventies. Um, but now there is a shift towards giving those freelance opportunities to people who are staff that's on the show, support staff. So like writer's assistants and script coordinators, people who've kind of paid their dues and you give them a shot.

Phil: (29:07)

Hmm. Got it. Now I, this is, I think, topically relevant because recently on Twitter I saw someone complaining about how, oh, I have I'm on a show. And it seems like the showrunner just wants to give these freelance opportunities to their friends, rather than giving them to the support staff. They'd rather pay a penalty instead of giving it to the writer's assistant or whoever, and make sure that their friends get a job or get a gig. Um, my feeling on that when I read it was, or is it that those lower level staff have not impressed the show runner enough to say, I think this person can do this.

Michael: (29:44)

Yeah. Because that's probably what's happening is that, you know, they, before you get to freelance, you, the boss is going to want to read a sample of your work. And so it better be really good and, you know, giving a freelance to anyone, you know, it really puts the showrunner a little bit behind the April, because if it doesn't come in good and most do not, it's going to need a giant page, one rewrite. And now the show runner has to do that. And you know, and they're not getting extra money for doing that and they have to do it on their own time. So like, that's why we see that when I'm running a show, all I care about is, is the draft coming in good shape, because if it doesn't, I got to do it on my own time and you have so many other things to do.

Michael: (30:22)

I like, I, last thing I want to do is rewrite someone else's work from page one. And so if you give that opportunity to, to someone who isn't quite ready and it's very hard to be ready, you know, that's why it's so important to be educated and to be as prepared as you can. Uh, because, you know, actually we, we were my partner and we were a few years ago. Um, this happens a couple of times in our career, were they show, uh, the Kirsty reality, how Allie had a show on TV land called the Kirstie alley show was with Michael Richardson, Rhea Perlman. And so I guess they needed to have a couple of freelances and they were a little bit behind the eight ball. And they, we had some friends in the show and they said, Hey, these guys will do it. And we had nothing going on at that time.

Michael: (31:06)

And so they hired us to do this freelance and it was great. And we went in, we banged it, we hit it out of the park. Everyone loved it. Like the whole staff loved it. And everyone was relieved that we did a good job because it just makes their job easier. But, um, yeah, maybe now if they had did it, that was few years ago, maybe now they would just give it to, uh, I don't know the staff right. Or, uh, or writers assistant, I only think they could at the time, because they just, th they script had to come in. Good. So they had a high, they really had to hire experienced people to do

Phil: (31:33)

It. It's literally, there's no time to

Michael: (31:34)

Rewrite. There is no time.

Phil: (31:36)

Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Well, any other thoughts about getting staffed or how your staffing shows you think that would be helpful for people to know? I think,

Michael: (31:46)

I think I covered it. Um, but again, it's all about, this is your opportunity. This is your shot, and you're not gonna get too many shots. So you have to be prepared, you know?

Phil: (31:54)

Yeah. Preparation is have specs, have pilots be able to understand what story structure is and understand how to understand your role. Yeah. It sounds like,

Michael: (32:05)

And like I said, showrunners, are looking. We are begging you to understand that if you understand that you're hired because we need you. And so it's not it. So it's not a favor. You're not doing, you know, you're doing us a favor. And so the other way around.

Phil: (32:17)

Just another thing you've always said, Hollywood needs a good writers. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Thank you, Michael. Thanks everybody for listening.

Michael: (32:23)

Yeah. Thank you guys.

Phil: (32:25)

We'll catch you on the next one.

Phil: (32:40)

This has been an episode of screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael Jackson and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing leaving a review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. If you're looking to support yourself, I encourage you to consider investing in Michael's screenwriting course michaeljamin.com/course. I've known Michael for over a decade. And in the past seven years, I've begged him to put something together during the global COVID-19 pandemic. Michael had time. And I have to say, I wish I'd had this course 10 years ago. As someone who has personally invested in most online courses, earned a bachelor's degree, and actively studied screenwriting for over a decade, this course has been more valuable to me than most of the effort I've put in because it focuses on something. No one else teaches: story. In his course, Michael pulls back the curtain and shows you exactly what the pros do in a writer's room. And that knowledge has made all the difference for me. And I know it will for you too. You can find more information michaeljamin.com/course. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @philahudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson explain why this popular question is not the right question to ask, and what you should be doing instead. Learn things you can do today to make breaking into Hollywood easier.

https://michaeljamin.com/course - Michael Jamin's Online Screenwriting Course.

https://michaeljamin.com/free - Free Screenwriting Lesson

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0588005/ - Bruce Miller's IMDB ( Showrunner of The Handmaids Tale)

https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/6/7/15736998/margaret-atwood-bruce-miller-handmaids-tale - Bruce Miller and Margaret Atwood discuss adapting The Handmaid's Tale for TV.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1839578/ - Person of Interest, Jonah Nolan's TV Show Phil couldn't remember.

https://www.wgfoundation.org/ - The Writer's Guild Foundation Official Website

Michael: (00:00)

So today's episode, welcome everyone. We're talking about selling a TV show. And before we begin, I'm going to start with a little story that I think might help everyone understand, uh, selling a TV show. So imagine, imagine Phil that we are, uh, we have a business venture and this venture is going to cost us around maybe 10 or $20 million. But we stand to make, uh, from this hundreds of millions of dollars, but what we need to do to make all this money, we got to get a pilot and we gotta get, uh, a plane, someone who's going to track who will fly us all around the world. Cause this is an international thing. We gotta, we need to fly all across the world. All right. So we've we found this guy on the internet and his, according to the pictures, the plane looks really nice.

Michael: (01:41)

It looks pretty good. Right? We go check it out. Me and you, we check it out and, and uh, we go inside the plane. It's really, it looks great. It's got wings, it's got nice furniture. It's set up. It's because it looks like it's the right size for us. And then we talked to the pilot because we need the pilot with the plane and we say, Hey man, this is a really nice plane. You, you got here. And he says, yeah, I built it myself. And we're like, that's pretty impressive. You built this all by yourself. Good for you. And then we asked, so, um, you know, how long have you, have you been a pilot? And then he says, well, I have never been a pilot before. Really? Now you just built this. He just, he's a, been a fan of planes for a long, long time.

Michael: (02:19)

He likes going to the airport, he watches the planes land and take off really. Okay. So, but uh, like what else do you know much about, please know, I've never actually been inside of a plane, never flown in a plane at all. And we're like, oh, okay, well, we're kind of looking for someone with experience because this business venture, we got to fly all across the world. The airports, some are gonna be big. Some are gonna be small. We're gonna fly at night. It could be bad weather. It could be tricky airports. And we're kind of looking for someone with experience to fly this plane for us. Cause it's a big business venture. And this guy is like, yeah, well, I don't need any of that. I built this plane. And even though I'm not a pilot, never flown a plane, uh, you should still hire me and my plane because look how beautiful it looks. So what'd you say fell. Should we make cut a deal with this guy? Or keep moving? Yeah.

Phil: (03:02)

Pass hard pass. That's a hard

Michael: (03:04)

Pass. Okay. So let's just swap the word airline pilot for a television pilot. Yeah. It's the same thing. Right? So a lot of people say, well, how do I sell my pilot? And that the truth is like, well, you don't because a network is going to want someone with experience because there's all sorts of troubles that come up when you're making a TV show. And uh, and you need an experienced pilot at the, at the helm to troubleshoot because I, you know, and that's what they're paying. They're, they're trying to protect their investment at this point. They're not trying to, um, cheap out and get someone, some DIY guy. Right.

Phil: (03:41)

Would you, if you stand to make that much of a return on an investment, uh, yeah, you're gonna, you're gonna S you're gonna pay the price. You need to, to close that deal.

Michael: (03:51)

Right. Right. And they're not really, so the network, I guess, like in the old days, it was a little different. When I say the old days, like before streaming, the network was really, they really wanted to get, when you sell a pilot, they weren't really buying the pilot. They were buying the hopes of a hundred episodes for, they could make all that money. And now with streaming, it's like, like Netflix, they really hope to do that. Their business model is different. So they'll try to do maybe three seasons of like 12 episodes each, but they still want consistently good episodes. They still in that. And that's why they are, they're paying, you know, who are they going to? If they're going to buy a pilot, who are they going to buy it from? They're going to buy either from me or the guy who been DIY guy listening to the podcast here. And so, but that's not to say they can't sell. I mean, I don't want to discourage anybody from selling a pilot, but there are steps that you want to take to, to, uh, increase your eyes, you know? Okay.

Phil: (04:43)

So, so let me ask this question then. Um, would you consider these spec deals that come in, where someone puts up a spec pilot and it sells, would you consider that a fluke or would you consider that to be common or would you consider it to be, um, almost an everyday experience?

Michael: (05:01)

I think you read about it because it's so unusual. So I kind of think it's a fluke and, but often they spec pilots. Uh, I don't really meet, I don't read many of the spec files and when they do sell, if they do sell, they always team me up with an experienced showrunner because they're never going to turn over the reins to someone who's never done it before. They'll hire someone to oversee it for you and it's Dennis. And by the way, then it's not really, you know, you're not at the helm, so it's not, you don't really determine the direction of the show. Someone else is doing it for you because that's how it works because they want that

Phil: (05:31)

Your investment, you know, it's interesting when you're a young writer, you think of these romantic things you hear about, you know, I know myself, I suffer from what I would call prodigy syndrome, where I feel like since a young age, I've had to just grand slam every single thing that I do. And that creates a lot of fear and anxiety to try, because there's this fear of failure and our identity is tied to that stuff. But at the same time you think about these things, you know, I was like, oh yeah, I'm going to go out. I'm going to win the Nicholls fellowship. And my first film's going to be an academy award winner because I'm going to be put that much effort into, and then, you know, there's a lot of naivete that comes with doing it. And there's a balance of, you have to have, you have to be naive to put in the effort, but at the same time, you have to understand how the business works, to know how to get things done. And that's something that's become more apparent as I've lived in LA for the last five years.

Michael: (06:21)

Right. And you know, one thing I think aspiring writers don't understand is that pilot that you write on spec is really just a calling card so that you can get meetings and get on a staff job or maybe pitch another pilot. Like if you read a great pilot, whoever sees it, some producer or studio head, they're going to say, wow, this is really great. This is so well written. We love this. We want to be in business with you. Um, we want to exploit you.

Phil: (06:47)

Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. Why did they, why did they say this is great. I want to be in business with you. Yeah. You

Michael: (06:52)

To want to make money off you. It's not to help you realize your dream At dollar signs. Exactly. And so it's not like, it's not like, you know, you may have this pilot that you love and it's so personal in your heart, but that's not what they want to buy. They, they, what they will really want is the hire you on a different project. They want to make their idea. And even with me and my partner, we very rarely sell pilots that we want to sell. We sell pilots that someone wants to buy. There's a huge difference.

Phil: (07:19)

Yeah. This is an interesting thing. So in preparing for this podcast, I actually busted out some of my screenwriting books over here that I've read throughout the years. And one of them talks specifically about this. And they're like, when you go into pitch and you're pitching your feature, because it looks on feature writing, it says, you have to remember, like, the goal is not really to sell your feature it's to impress them so much that they think, man, that's a good writer so that they bring you back to write the project they want.

Michael: (07:44)

That's exactly right. Right. And when you think of, think of a really good example, like, uh, Bruce Miller, who's the showrunner of the Handmaid's tale, which I think is brilliantly written show. Uh, you know, and that's based on a book, they're obviously Margaret Atwood's book. It's not like, I can't imagine Bruce Miller as a little kid lying in his bedroom dreaming one day to one day, hopefully run the TV version of the Handmaid's tale. Like that was not, he had his own ideas. I want to do a show about superheroes or whatever the hell he wanted to do, but it was not to do the Handmaid's tale. Right? So at some point I imagine the studio said, Hey, we have the rights to the Handmaid's tale. We're looking for writers to adapt into a TV show. And he won the auction. He, he won that great job. And, uh, and it's, you know, it'll probably change his career, but he has all, he had a long career before this on many, many other shows, ER, I think was his first show. So, uh, it's not like his dream was to make the Handmaid's tale. His dream was to do something else. This is just a great opportunity that that came in his way. And he, and he jumped.

Michael: (08:43)

Hi guys, it's Michael Jamin. I wanted to take a break from talking and talk just a little bit more. I think a lot of you, people are getting bad advice on the internet. Many, you want to break into the industry as writers or directors or actors, and some of you are paying for this advice on the internet. It's just bad. And as a working TV writer and showrunner, this burns my butt. So my goal is to flush a lot of this bad stuff out of your head and replace it with stuff that's actually going to help you. So I post daily tips on social media, go follow me @MichaelJaminWriter. You can find me on Instagram and Facebook and TikTok. And let's be honest, if you don't have time, like just two minutes a day towards improving your craft, it's not going to happen. So go make it happen for you @MichaelJaminWriter. Okay. Now back to my previous,

Phil: (09:29)

And this might be jumping ahead, but I think the overarching principle that I picked up from you, your course, and a lot of the things that you teach on your social media and from knowing you for, you know, almost a decade, it's really this like Hollywood wants good writers. Yeah. The reason he's getting that opportunity is because he's proven himself as a good writer. Right. And yeah. And so I think that begs the question. How does one become a good writer? Or what does that look like to impress these people when you're in the room? Yeah,

Michael: (09:58)

No one wants, as I often say, no one wants to answer that question. That's too hard. That would require a study in your craft and learning how to write. It's just much easier to, you know, Hey, I got a script and Hollywood's fair, unfair, and it's all about who, you know, and, and you know, it's all boys club, it's so much easier to blame Hollywood for your wives than it is to take responsibility and say, well, maybe my writing is not up to par.

Phil: (10:20)

Right. But when it goes back to, you know, your point about this as a business and they were trying to exploit you for dollars, it's because it is a business and that's why they call it the business. Right. I'm trying to get into the business show business. And you know, I saw this all the time when I was in, um, in film school is a liberal arts college. I was 28. It was a really strange moment when I realized how much older I was, then everyone else there, I somehow nine 11 came up and was like, oh, where were you? When nine 11 happened? I think I was in third grade. And I was like, I was in high school, like, oh my gosh, like I'm ancient compared to these kids. And they just wanted to, they wanted to make the art. They talked about their art. They didn't talk about their craft. And I think there's a difference between that. It is an art form, but it takes a craftsmen to do the job. Right?

Michael: (11:06)

Yeah. I think that's an example. S analogy my partner often make, which is, um, like we're Taylor, oh, you want cuffs on these pants? I'm like, okay, you can get cuffs. You want, oh, you want pleats? Sure. We'll give you pleats. No, you know, that's the, you know, I'm not gonna argue with you. If you're paying me money, I'll try to give you, I'll give you what you want. I'll try to make it as good as I can and be able to live with the result. So it's not horrendous horrendous, but at the end of the day, they're paying me, which means it's theirs. It's theirs, you know, that's I took money in exchange for this project. So it's there is now, right?

Phil: (11:37)

Yeah. Right. I mean, it's no different than anything else. I mean, my background is in the digital marketing world and web design and web development. And there's, it's, it's a common tale that no one will mess up. I project better than the client. Yeah.

Michael: (11:50)

Well, yeah. I mean, you got some, you got to keep them, prevent them from, from doing that. Right. I mean, in the end, you know, the studio executives, it's not like they want, you know, they want reassurance, they're hiring you, they're paying you to write the script and they want to feel that every time you make a decision, even if they don't agree with you, if you give them a reason why you're not doing it, they want to know that they're in good hands. So it's not like they always want to be a, they always want their way. They just want to be reassured because they want to protect their job. And they don't really, they don't know how to do my job, that they have a different job. They don't know how to be a screenwriter. Right. So, uh, often if you can reassure them or take their ID or convince them that your idea is their idea that goes along with it.

Phil: (12:32)

Yeah. So this goes back to the skill set that I'm very grateful that I fell into that I did not want to learn. And that sales just understanding it. And there's this great book by a guy named Tom Hopkins called how to master the art of selling. And I was given like the VP of sales at this company. I worked at handed to me and he was like, you need to learn this. And I open it. It's like from the seventies, it's from a seminar. He went to when he was a young salesman. And I was like, ah, man. And ultimately I had to come to the church to the realization, like I need money now. And I work a sales job. So as much as I'd love to just be sitting there writing screenplays all day, I need to learn how to master this craft. And as I'm reading through it, the big overarching thing that I learned is it's really just language, right? It's the way you refer to things. So, you know, if I say, Hey, I need you to sign this contract. Like red flags go up, you know, start sweating a little like, oh, what am I signing? But if I say, Hey, would you approve these documents? Right. It's a completely different feeling. Um, if I tell you, something's true than online, if you tell yourself something is true, that it has to be

Michael: (13:29)

True. Yeah. That makes sense. You know, one of the things I want to include in this con in this conversation about selling your sh your TV show, it's not so much that they're buying an idea, they're buying the execution of the idea. And so if you hire someone who hasn't, who has little experience, like if we give 10 writers the same mind, the same idea, you're going to get 10, very different screenplays. And so you're really buying the execution of it. And hopefully, you know, usually when you have more season's hand, uh, they will execute it better and they'll take, they'll know how to take notes better. And they, even if they don't take the note, they understand that you have to take the spirit of the note. And often young writers don't quite understand that. And I, at least, I, I know I didn't, when I was starting out, it was like, how do I take this note?

Michael: (14:15)

I don't know how to, you know, I don't have to do any of this. So that's, that comes with selling a TV show. So the way, the way in then the best way in, I believe is to become a staff writer on a show. And you do that for many years and you kind of learn your craft and you work your way up. And then back when my partner and I were starting, that that's kind of what we did. So we were F I think it was after seven or eight years, we were finally offered a development deal. And up until then, most people, most writers are saying, you know, put it off as long as you can't put it off, because you, you only get one shot to prove that you can do this the first or first one out, you know, then you're, you're damaged goods after that basically. But things have kind of changed a little bit where the market is so different. Now, I think people are rushing into selling pilots, and I guess for some people it's working, but, uh, I think for the long-term goal, you kind of don't really want to do that. And, you know, I would still recommend learn your craft first before you got and, and, you know, create your own show.

Phil: (15:14)

That's when we talk about the execution of an idea that this is something that I think about all the time, you know, you've made it clear and I've seen it in practice from the showrunners on the show I work on with you. Um, it's really about executing their vision of that and making their job easier. Right. It's how do we avoid page one rewrites and how do we make it? So the rewriting is a minimal because it's inevitably going to happen on out. Like imagine basically every script that comes in, they're going to change something. Yeah.

Michael: (15:44)

And if I fight them on, I can fight them all the way. If I'm the shower, I'm, I'm the co-executive producer. So I'm not the boss on this. It's a show my partner. And so the showrunners are the two stars and I could fight them. I could say, well, we shouldn't do it this way. And I get convinced. I could make all these arguments for why my way is better, whatever. And in the end, it's their show. They'll just effort, turn in the script. They'll just rewrite me anyway and they'll just him off. So I might as well give them what they want as close to what that is, what they want as I can. But how

Phil: (16:11)

Do you marry that with artistic integrity?

Michael: (16:13)

Yeah. I get a paycheck at the end of every week. That's my artistic integrity.

Phil: (16:18)

But, but can you feel ethical sabotaging your unique vision? I mean, they hired you for your unique take on these things, right? So how, how do you justify that?

Michael: (16:28)

No, they hired me to help them execute the kind of show that they want to make. And so my job is to, is to give them the best possible version of the show that they want to make, not the best kind of, not the best version of the Charlotte. I want to make the best version for that. They want to make. Right. Got it. So if I have artistic integrity or whatever, like, you know, I do save that for my side projects or whenever yeah.

Phil: (16:51)

Just cry yourself to sleep and wipe your tears of anxiety away with a hundred dollar bills.

Michael: (16:56)

Yeah. That's what I do every night. Just fan myself with this stack of money. There you go.

Phil: (17:01)

So, so, you know, it's interesting because what I'm hearing you say is when you're selling a pilot, when you're handling a pilot, you have to be the odds of you selling your pilot are low. Right. But you need that as a calling card to prove that you can do the job so that you can get a job. Right. And, and having a good pilot helps you get that first step, which is the job, right? Yeah. Um, and my experience, and this might be, you know, we're going to talk about this in another episode. My experience has always, what I'm seeing is you basically get the agent by having a job for them to sell. So effectively. I have impressed someone and they want to hire me, but now I am obligated to have an agent to get me staffed. Is that kind of how you see it?

Michael: (17:45)

I mean, it's so hard to get an a, it's like, it's hard to get a job without an agent. It's hard to get an agent without a job, is that that's the paradox. The minute you have some heat, in terms of someone wanting to hire you is the best time to go out and say, find an agency. Look, I have about to get a big paycheck. You don't even have to earn your money. I'm going to

Phil: (18:03)

Give you 10% of my paycheck,

Michael: (18:05)

Which you did not earn,

Phil: (18:07)

Which in the sales world, we call that a Bluebird, right? Like, Hey, there's a blooper just landed on my windshield, like Cinderella. And it's handing me a stack of cash. And I, as a sales rep will take that every single time, because it is a freebie, I don't have to cold call. I don't have to, I don't have to put in any time, energy or effort. And that will buoy me up to go put in the time, energy and effort on the other deal I'm actually working on. Right. Right. So, so you're handing them a Bluebird, right. And saying, I've got free money for you. And so it's a no brainer for the agent to bring you on at that point, because

Michael: (18:37)

Yeah. You feel you have, yeah. If you feel that it has legs, if you feel like they can turn, you turn it to something else. Often if, for example, someone's a writer's assistant will be able to sell an episode, uh, to the show and the show, you know, the short run and say, okay, we'll let you write a freelance episode. In that case, it may still be hard to get an agent because it's not quite, it's not, it's not quite the same as saying, well, I'm now a staff writer. They want to hear that.

Phil: (19:01)

Yeah. And you're not obligated from the writer's Guild because you're not a member of the writer's Guild and you haven't earned enough points to gain entry. So you could just get a check from that, right?

Michael: (19:11)

Yeah. Yeah. It could be a one-time, it could be a one-time thing and you never work again. So if, once you're on staff, it's a little different. Yeah. You know?

Phil: (19:19)

Right. Yeah. So, so going back to the subject of, of selling about, so we're not going to sell the pilot, but I need a good pilot in order to get an agent who will then hopefully get me

Michael: (19:30)

Staffed or at least to get a yes. Sometimes an agent. Right. We'll uh, we'll take you on if the pilot is great. If they really, if it's great, then they'll take you on. Yeah, yeah.

Phil: (19:41)

Right. So, so then what I'm hearing you say is you need to have a certain level of skill that comes through a certain level of craft that comes through in that pilot to impress someone. But then you're also saying 6, 7, 8 years of being a professional writer. You are still learning every single day and perfecting that craft and people are saying, take as long as you can, because you got one at bat here with your developmental,

Michael: (20:06)

That's kind of where it was. Now. It's a little different. Now. It seems like everyone with like two years of experiences or whatever, selling pilot, and it seems a little odd, but the industry has changed so much, uh, that that's kind of, yeah. People, I think people are developing sooner than they should. And, but, but that's, you know, when I broke in you and wouldn't even ride a pilot, you would never write a spec pilot. You would write a spec episode of a TV show. You would write us back Frazier friends or cheers. You'd write a sample episode of that. But now those shows don't really exist. There's no one or two shows that everyone watches because the audience is so fragmented. So now, um, agents and managers are, or even studio executives are telling people new writers that they should write a, um, basically a spec pilot create from whole cloth, their own TV show, which I think is really unfair because that's a whole different skill of creating a world as a whole different skillset from, uh, from actually just writing one episode of the show that's already on there. You don't have to create the characters. You just to envision an episode, uh, you know, a plot for these characters for that week. And so, and by the way, when I'm, if I'm running a show, I don't need a staff writer to create a new world. I just need them to, can they mimic the world that already exists. So I really think it's an unfair, uh, assignment that it's given to new writers. And I it's just, it sucks. There's no way around it.

Phil: (21:32)

Yeah. So you've mentioned to me in the past that, you know, and when I was in film school, they said, you know, write spec episodes. So like I wrote a spec Mr. Robot, because I had a tech background and that's what my professor recommended I do. Um, but at the same time, you've also mentioned that I should write specs that match certain tones to show that I have range in the different types of shows. So if someone, so let's say I'm going into a pitch for Tacoma FD. I could show something along the lines of super troopers or that, that heavy comedy tone that's very jokey or is very right, which is a completely different tone.

Michael: (22:07)

Right. Uh, and another example would be a spec family guy, which is an animated show. If you have a spec family guy, that's not going to get you on BoJack horseman, which you know, which was way more realistic, even though they're both cartoons. So yeah. You want to have the tone match the show, which is why you need so many different specs. And I, and then again, we're getting into the, it's so weird, like when I'm hiring, I would, I prefer to read a spec of a show that I'm, that, that I'm familiar with. But again, the other, the other side of the business, they're telling you

Phil: (22:39)

No dry pilots. So would that advice still apply that I should write multiple pilots in multiple tones to match the tones of popular TV shows or shows that I'd like to be similar to what I can basically just show calling cards and say, this is a pilot I wrote that I'm proud of. That matches the tone of your show.

Michael: (22:56)

Yeah, exactly. And we just had that situation where we were up at my partner and I were up for running a show that's currently on the air and the show, uh, we had, we have many samples that we could send out. So we had to decide which sample matched the tone best of their show. So,

Phil: (23:10)

Okay. So, so the practice of writing a pilot, it's not only helping me hone my craft, but it's also helping me establish a library of samples based on the, it was just going to increase my job opportunities, right? Yeah. Almost like, uh, you know, growing up in Oklahoma that we had different fishing lures for different types of fish, they, they attract different fish. And so to me, it sounds like you're basically baiting your hook or putting, using a different lure to catch the fish that you're trying to catch. Yeah.

Michael: (23:37)

Yeah. That's exactly

Phil: (23:38)

It. Interesting. I did have that conversation with, uh, with a show showrunner recently as well. And he brought up the fact that, you know, one of the, one of the staff writers that he hired as a baby writer, they turned in a script and it was very much, it was like, this is obviously based on the writer's life. Like it follows them coming to LA trying to get a job in Hollywood. And he said, it didn't really match what I was looking for. And, but it was the best that I saw. And the other side of that, unfortunately, is I have no idea, no idea how long that person worked on that pilot. They could've been working on it for four years. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So how do you, how do you navigate that? Like, is there any way to show that you have more skill set when you're in that situation where you're, when you're trying to get staffed?

Michael: (24:24)

No, it's often, um, you know, when you're staffing someone look at me, a stack of like a hundred scripts, you know, you have a lot of scripts of new writers and I will read like the first five pages of each one. And then if it's, if I, if I'm not impressed with the first five, I'd just toss it because why? Because I have 99 more to go. And so if those first five pages are not wowing me, if they don't do all the requirements of hitting what a story needs to be, uh, I toss it and that may seem cruel and unfair, but like, what would you do if you were in my shoes? Like you would. Yeah.

Phil: (24:57)

Yeah. You know how to maximize time. Like you have time, you want to spend with your, I think you told me a story once when you were on Marin and like, you had to clean up, like you were in a crack house shooting all day and you had to read scripts still. Like, you're like, I don't, I don't want to read the scripts. I want to be at home with my family. Yeah. Like, but I'm here sitting in a crack house. Yeah. Yeah.

Michael: (25:15)

It was exactly that we shot in a crack house. So yeah. I mean, you got to, the reality is, and it's the same way, actually, even when I'm kicking over casting, uh, you know, it's that love that you used to cast in person, but now it's all people said, submit on recordings. And you know, if you have to get to a hundred actors, you're not going to watch the whole audition. You're going to say next, you know, you're just going to flip it to the next one. And it seems cruel. But at the end of the day, at the end of the day, one writer or one actor is going to get that job. There's only spot only room for one. And does it matter how I get to that one person, one, person's going to be happy. Right. And 99 are gonna be disappointed. So it's really up to you to, to come out of the gates swinging.

Phil: (25:54)

Yeah. When I moved from first moved here, um, you know, when you moved to LA, like I'd been to LA many times for concerts and things. And I refuse to look at the Hollywood sign until I lived in LA. Like, it was just like this weird magic I had to say, I live in Los Angeles and I am here to be a writer. And I remember the first time I saw that sign, I was like, oh, that's pretty cool. But nothing compared to, yeah. I was going to say, seeing, you know, eating a Cantor for the first time, get funny, but, but really it was when I saw the writer's Guild building on Fairfax, like all of a sudden, like, man, there's just this awesome moment. So I did some research and I found out that you can attend writers Guild. Um, what is it, uh, it's their nonprofit arm, the writers Guild foundation, right?

Phil: (26:37)

Maybe they have events almost every single week that you can attend with working writers. And they have this thing called the ticket and it was a thousand dollars. And I mean, that's a hefty price even for me, but I decided it was an awesome opportunity because you got invited to every single event and front row seats, reserved seats and all of the, all of the events they had, you got to attend to the VIP parties. So I did that. And, uh, one of the events was, uh, a workshop with Jonah Nolan, um, talking about, uh, Westworld. And he gave an advice similar to your point about the five pages. Uh, he said, when I read your script, I, I, something better happened by the bottom of the first page or I'm done. Yeah, yeah. Right. Like he says, I know everything I need to know about you as a writer, by the end of the first page.

Phil: (27:24)

And he talked about like one spec he read for, um, his other show, which was, uh, what was his other show? I'm blanking on it. It ran for forever. I had to do Jim Caviezel in it. Um, but anyway, yeah, they'll come to me in a second. But anyway, he said that, uh, he read a writer's script and he's like, he's like, it was filthy. It had nothing to do with our show. And it was just absolutely filthy. But his voice was so interesting that we hired him because he had something to say at the bottom of the first page. Right. So it seems like that's really, it it's, you know, to your point, it's the expression and execution of an idea, not just the idea and having something to say early on. Okay.

Michael: (28:04)

Yeah. And also like people say, oh, it's going to get, wait till it gets good. Like, wait until it gets good, dude. I'm not waiting till it. You know, you have to start good. I'm not going to ever the ending is going to blow you away. Well, no, one's going to get to the ending. You know,

Phil: (28:18)

I remember the first, the first spec episode I ever wrote was a spec workaholics. And you were kind enough to read it and to be fair to you, I was way too new to send you anything to read at the time, because looking back on it, it was awful, but you read it and you're like, yeah, it seems like you kind of Frankensteined some stuff here, which is just like disheartening to hear, but it's very true. And you said the end was funny. So now you're, you have to start with that. Yeah. You have to start with the funniest thing in your script and then you have to be better than that. Moving forward. I just remember sitting there thinking like, oh my gosh, that was the FA like, it took forever to come up with that ending. Like how could I ever come up with anything funnier than that? And you know, as you're, as you get better at your craft through practice and practice and practice, you're looking back at it now. I was like, I wasn't even really that funny. Like we can come up with a way better.

Michael: (29:05)

Of course, of course you can. Yeah. And you, um, yeah. I mean, we helped you to become less precious and less yeah. Less attached. The more you write, the less attached you are to what you write. And so, because you have more of a body of work and you're like, if someone doesn't like a joke or something or a moment, or I find a throw dog, I'll come up with another one. Yeah. No big deal.

Phil: (29:25)

Yeah. Right, right. So it seems like the answer really is you just need to be good at your craft and you need to be able to execute it on the page. And if you can do those things, that's, that's how you get a job. Yeah. Um, you, you gave me a note a long time ago. Um, it was an, I remember as an email, it was right when I went to film school and I sent an email asking you a question, and you said, um, Hollywood needs good writers.

Phil: (29:58)

This has been an episode of screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael Jackson and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing leaving a review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. If you're looking to support yourself, I encourage you to consider investing in Michael's screenwriting course michaeljamin.com/course. I've known Michael for over a decade. And in the past seven years, I've begged him to put something together during the global COVID-19 pandemic. Michael had time. And I have to say, I wish I'd had this course 10 years ago. As someone who has personally invested in most online courses, earned a bachelor's degree, and actively studied screenwriting for over a decade, this course has been more valuable to me than most of the effort I've put in because it focuses on something. No one else teaches: story. In his course, Michael pulls back the curtain and shows you exactly what the pros do in a writer's room. And that knowledge has made all the difference for me. And I know it will for you too. You can find more information michaeljamin.com/course. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @philahudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

On this week's episode, I have actress Mary Lynn Rajskub (24, It’s Always Sunny In Philadelphia, The Dropout, Brooklyn 99 and many many more) and we dive into the origins of his career. We also talk about her new stand-up comedy tour she is doing and how that came about. We talk about so much more, so make sure you tune in.

Mary Lynn Rajskub on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marylynnrajskub/

Mary Lynn Rajskub IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0707476/

Mary Lynn Rajskub on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Lynn_Rajskub

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Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I don't know what else to do because I am an artist. So it's always been tied to my personal life and my personal expression, and there's a therapeutic aspect to it. And I don't really, I feel like if I could have taken the route of, I don't know. I never had the ability to be like, I'm going to write scripts, so I just kind of amped up the thing that I am good at.

Michael Jamin:

You're listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity. I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts.

Hey everyone. Welcome back for another episode of, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'm going to tell you what I'm talking about today. I'm talking with a wonderful actress named Mary Lynn Reup, who I worked with many years ago. I was introduced to her. She's doing her hair right now. How's

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Your side part going? Okay, go on.

Michael Jamin:

Many years we were teamed up to take a pilot out based on her life and many pilots that didn't go anywhere. But Mary Lynn is, you are one of my favorite Hollywood stories, and I'm going to tell it to you and I hope it embarrasses you because it was so funny. So we were working together on telling this pilot, and then it was a few years later, we were doing Marin, mark Marin, his show. We were running his show, and then we needed someone at the last minute to play themselves in an interview. So I text Mary Lynn, I got her number on my cell phone. I text her and I

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Say, oh, what did I do?

Michael Jamin:

I say, I say, Hey, Mary Lynn, I know this is last minute, but do you want to be in our TV show? And then you wrote back, yes, who is this?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Nope,

Michael Jamin:

Don't need to read a part. And we script's are

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Important.

Michael Jamin:

I'll be there tomorrow. I just assumed I was in your phone. So I was like, whatever. And then we later had you on LX Buddy system, but for the people who are not entirely sure who you are, I mean, you've done a ton of stuff. Most, I guess your biggest role was Chloe on 24, which was a giant hit. So you're Chloe, but then I was also looking through your credits and you also played Chloe on Veronica's closet. And I wonder if that was just a trial run for the name

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Trial. Yeah, it's in the ether that the quirky awkward girl, oh, let's call her Chloe in Veronica's closet. She was androgynous and it was Wally Langham who played her assistant on that show, if I'm remembering correctly. Both of us. His character turned out to be gay. It was actually kind of a sweet story. And so we both were ambiguous sexually, and we both had crushes on Scott Bayo, which is not adorable, but

Michael Jamin:

Not anymore. Do you remember all the parts you've done like this? Do you have a good memory for everything you've done?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

You've done

Michael Jamin:

A lot of parts.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

What's funny is you're pulling the switcheroo on me because normally people will say stuff to me and I'm like, I don't remember that at all. But things like this, if you ask me what the part is and what the story is, I most likely will remember that stuff.

Michael Jamin:

But when you Go ahead,

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah, but there are some things where either, I don't know, it depends. Sometimes I'm in stuff, I'm like, I don't remember being there. I don't remember you

Michael Jamin:

Really. You sometimes turn on the TV and see an episode of something you've done done a ton. And they go, oh, look at there. There I am. Do you not remember?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah. And it's funny, the way that you're saying it through the prism of the actual part, I'll remember that. But there's a certain, I don't know, there's certain events or one-off things or sometimes there's stuff on 24. There's a ton ton of guest stars because there's so much plot on that show, and there's so many people that get killed per episode, most likely. In that case, it's a person that I just wasn't on set with, and so I didn't have memorized the episodes of who all the characters are type of thing.

Michael Jamin:

Now you do a lot of, I see you posting, you're always on the road, you're always doing standup, but did you start as a standup?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I started in standup ish, yes. I was going to school for painting, and then it turned to performance art, and then I started making fun of performance art.

And then I was in San Francisco and I was going to bars and doing open mic shows. I was really attracted to solo performers, but at the time it was more performance arty. And then once I started just organically making fun of it, I started to encounter comedians who would come to these. There was a crossover between artists and comedians who would go to the same open mics. And I remember seeing the comedians and going, oh, that's, oh, that's somebody that knows their voice, their natural at storytelling, because I was seeing a lot of just poetry from their journal and stuff like that. And it wasn't until I started meeting comedians that I was like, oh, those are my people. But I still didn't understand necessarily how I was being funny.

Michael Jamin:

And then how did you find your voice then? That takes a long time.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Oh, I think I just found it last week.

Michael Jamin:

Well, tell me why, how you found it. What does that mean for you to find your, I know what it means for a writer. What does it mean for you?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

What I'm realizing, honestly, lately within the past few years, especially within the past decade that I've gone on the road doing comedy in earnest, is that I do have a story to tell. It's just taken me a long time to hone in on what that is. And a lot of it is just come from my life experience and putting together, oh, that's what I thought about that, reflecting on stuff, because I think when I first started, I grew up sort of in a bubble and pretty naive, and so I just was putting a vulnerability out there, but I didn't know what I was saying or what I was doing. I got a lot of acting because of that

Michael Jamin:

Really. So you were vulnerable back when you were starting off?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

A lot of times, and that's pretty much what I did on stages. I would improvise and I wouldn't know what I was going to say. And I can remember looking back, other people would be like, did you write a sketch packet for that? Again, there was a crossover between actors and comedy writers, and I used to just really beat myself up, and it's because I was so bogged down by whatever social anxiety and whatever my brain, the mechanism was geared towards performing, and I still can't quite articulate it, but I just know that I didn't have the presence of mind or the ability to, my brain just didn't work that way. I wasn't about to sit down and write a sketch packet. I had to go through it experientially year after year to be like, oh, I'm this type of person. That's why sometimes people will be like, they'll ask the generic question of who are your comedic influences? It's like, I never related to a guy on a stage in a suit with a tie going, here's what I think about this. It's only lately that I'm going, oh, I have an opinion on that, and it's a strong opinion, but it took me a long time to not be really reactive and really passive.

Michael Jamin:

But you still write out your material before as if any other comedian would, right? Or

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

No? I do. I do. And now that I've been doing it so long, things will come to me and it's always a joy. You, and I'm sure when you're writing, sometimes you'll get those one-liners really quick that you're like, oh, that's fully formed. I'd have one line that's been in my act forever, but I just love it. It's like, did you know you could do a bunch of yoga and still be an asshole? And that's just a real quickie. I didn't sit down trying to write that. And then I have a whole another scenario that follows that, where it's like the kernel of it is truths, but the way it comes out is pretty fabricated.

Michael Jamin:

Do you have a preference as to, do you prefer acting or standup, or does it not make a difference to you?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I mean, at this point, I prefer standup just because there's, well, there's meat on the bone for that in terms of I get to be in control and I get to be on stage for an hour, and it's hard and it's challenging, it's exhilarating. I love acting. It's just lately it's been a bit of diminishing returns in terms of parts that I can actually be challenged by. I would absolutely love to have something that I can dig into and that would have a lot of layers to it, something that I could come back and continue to be that character. But I'm going on 10 to 15 years of the life of a lot of guest stars, which is great. I'm very thankful, and I will do that again. But that's got its own. You're coming onto a set where everybody knows each other and you're just like, I got to now in two days, fit into the tone of the show, and then I do my one thing and then I leave.

Michael Jamin:

And you prefer, because you do a lot of comedy, I mean, do you prefer drama then to do, is that more satisfying to you?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I mean, 24 was pretty satisfying just because it was such a big show and it was so different for me.

Michael Jamin:

But also, you were kind of the relief character. You were the awkward weirdo, right? Totally. Yeah.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

But is there a plan then with your, I mean, I don't know why I'm asking this. Is there more to it? Is there a bigger plan for you doing all this standard? No,

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I need your help because my help

Michael Jamin:

Want your help

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Would, my dream would be to be able to get another acting role that I could be a regular character on something. It's a big dream. My other dream would be to sell out the tickets in the small clubs that I do, so that I could sustain what I'm already doing. And so when you say, is there a plan, that would be the plan. I don't necessarily know if I get to do that or not. I've got a few more pushes in me, and if one of those things doesn't start to pay off, I will be trying to pay for my lavish lifestyle in some other way. Maybe OnlyFans, maybe some feet videos. I heard on OnlyFans, there's big breasted women making smoothies. I could do the small breasted women making smoothies on OnlyFans.

Michael Jamin:

Wait, so they're not naked, but they're just making smoothies. They're naked. Oh,

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Let me talk to you about something. I've spent zero time on there, but I was podcast. I have a new podcast called that. Woo. You do. Please promote it because I that

Michael Jamin:

Woo. You do for sure

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

At that. Woo. You do. I have a partner. We talk about what's a woo that you do that, A magical thinking thing that you do in your life that you think, anyway, we were digressing and our producer went on to OnlyFans. The thing about it is there's whole universe of stuff. I think it started out as soft core porn, and now it's like everything. And I can't say much more. I only spent about 40 seconds on there. But you go on there, you get an onslaught of all different kinds of things that, I mean, people are doing comedy on there. People are doing,

Michael Jamin:

Oh, really? On there? Yeah. So you're saying not just porn, it's just

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

It's not just porn anymore. Whitney Cummings is doing, she did the Burt Er roast on OnlyFans. Anyway, I'm here to promote my podcast at that. Woo. You do. They don't need,

Michael Jamin:

But let's talk about your, okay, so what's the premise of your show, your podcast?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

So my friend Jeffrey and I, he comes on the road with me. He's a very funny comedian. He features for me, and we enjoy each other's company. And he may or may not, I may, he maybe carries crystals in his pockets sometimes.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I have some crystals right here. I keep 'em on my computer in case That's what I'm talking about for creativity. It's California.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah. Fuels. So the podcast is what is the woo that maybe you're embarrassed about that you do that you think, have you written yourself a check for a million dollars? Do you keep crystals on your desk to harness the energy from the universe? We had a guy talk that he started praying. I had a story about going to visit a crystal skull. One lady talked, of course psychics came up. But there's all different types of little things that you think is going to give you or things that make you happy. And they're sort of like a magical thinking.

Michael Jamin:

But that's a great idea actually, because it's very small, but it's very optimistic and helpful

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

For a podcast. And I had one woman who was like, she wasn't on the pod, but she's like, I don't have a woo. I don't have a woo. And the more we talked, she said, I'm very organized though. And I said, well, what does that bring you? And then I love organizing as a woo, because that gives her a sense of peace and calmness. And it's like, what's that thing you do that makes you feel good?

Michael Jamin:

When I was struggling a few years back, I was all depressed about something. And then I read this book and it was very new agey. There's a lot of the book that was, I thought this is very helpful, but this is really helpful. But then it went a little too far, and I was like, ah, you're fucking ruined it. I was on board. And then you just took it one step so far. But one of the things that he said that I thought was so helpful, it was about kind of visualizing your life or whatever. And one of the things that was so helpful, he said, it's already happened. It just hasn't happened yet. Whatever you want. It's already happened. It just hasn't happened yet. And so I was like, that was so profound to me. It was like, oh. So now I just have to figure out how to make it happen. Already done. I don't know why. I find that really helpful. Maybe it doesn't help you at all.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I love that. Well, it sort of eases the pain of, I think the idea is like we're supposed to go through these challenges and take little steps, but it's like watering a plant. You're not just like, why aren't you grown? Why aren't you a tree yet? But you're like, oh, you will be a tree. And I just know you're growing and it doesn't help to go like, why aren't you this yet?

Michael Jamin:

And that's what you're doing now, because you're just putting this energy out there. You're putting it with going on the road, which is not easy. And you're putting the energy out there hoping that something will come from it and something will, you just don't know what it will be.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Right. And I'm really hoping to, looking back on my life, that was a long time ago that we pitched that. I had a very good run of good fortune with having the parts shine on me for a little while there. And then of course, with the massive show of 24, and people know me from always Sunny in Philadelphia now, even though that's only a couple episodes. But I've been very lucky, but I still want to do it. So we'll see.

Michael Jamin:

When you're on the road, because you are on the road a lot, how many days were you on the road?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

It's just a

Michael Jamin:

Lot. Okay. So when you're on the road, will you go from one city to the next, or do you always come back to la?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I try to come back, and the best case scenario for me would be to do two weekends a month. But it doesn't work out like that. Now, this month of November, I'm going to be out for almost the entire month because I have a lot of one nighters. Some won't give you a weekend booking some clubs. So it's just one nighters that I can get booked, and then I'm going.

Michael Jamin:

And then do you drive from city to city then, or what? Or you fly?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

No, at the time, I'm just doing a lot of one-way flights,

Michael Jamin:

One-way, flights back and forth.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

It's exhausting. It

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Is exhausting.

Michael Jamin:

It's

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Very bizarre.

Michael Jamin:

Tell me what it is. Okay, so you go to some city. Let's say you're going to Boston, right? You're flying the night before. What is it really like?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah, you're asking me at a weird time because I just booked a bunch of flights. And some of 'em, if I have a one night or somewhere, I'm not getting paid for four or five shows. What's nice, what's the best is if you can fly in the night before you wake up, you chill out, and you do a whole weekend of shows.

Michael Jamin:

And then after the last show, you fly back, or do you wait another day?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

No, after the last show, you fly back. Well, you have to spend the night, but usually it's like 6:00 AM I'm out the next morning I be home and take the kid to school and pick up the kid from school.

Michael Jamin:

And what would happen if your flight got caught somewhere or a connecting flight? What would happen if you missed your connecting flight to this show? What happens?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Hey, it's just another day that he stays with his dad and they got to take a couple

Michael Jamin:

Of men for you. But you missed the show. I'm saying.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Oh, you're saying if I don't make it to the show?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Well, that hasn't happened yet.

Michael Jamin:

Okay.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

But yeah. And this time in November, I've got a lot of, there's Portland, there's Alameda, California, there's Sacramento, there's Utah, and they're all within a few days. So I'm doing these little flights, and some of them are the same day of the show. There's one where I get in at 4:00 PM and the show's at seven or eight. And that's just the way it's going to

Michael Jamin:

Be way it is. But I also think, alright, so exhausting from the travel. I dunno why I'm so stuck on the practicality of this whole thing. But then you have to psych yourself up to go up on stage at whatever, nine o'clock or whatever. Isn't your energy sap by that time? Yeah. What do you do?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I napped before and then I make sure that I have enough time to wake myself up from the nap. And then also, if I'm feeling really dark and low energy, I just let myself go there. If you try to push it away, it just makes it worse.

Michael Jamin:

So you're about to go on stage and you're fucking exhausted. And then when you go there,

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

What happens is I've experimented with different versions. I was saying I was real reactive in the past. Sometimes I would get really in my head and I get really quiet, and I've learned techniques. If I'm feeling low, feeling exhausted, I carry that with me on the stage. I'm honest with it. Then I use it. And then it's like little stepladders, you get out of it because you're standing on stage in front of an audience, but it's using the honesty of where you're at. And then that exhaustion oftentimes will turn into annoyance, will turn into anger, will turn into humor. I mean, there's one example where I got booked at, I thought was a club. It was a bar show. It was in a weird part of town. It was honestly very white trashy, for lack of a better word. And I was like, I never drink before shows. And I started drinking. And then by the time I got on stage, I was like, I don't know why I got booked here. I don't know what this is.

Michael Jamin:

Did you say that as part of your act? Yes, you did.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

And they loved it because I was being honest and I took my reality. I was like, what is this? I walked around the building, it's like a dirt parking lot. I don't even know what's happening. Why are you guys here? Why? And

Michael Jamin:

That must've depressed when you showed up. You don't deserve me. That's hilarious.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

One of the funnest shows ever. And I started categorizing the audience, you guys are, what? Is this over? Okay, you guys are, this is what you're going to do. And I started naming them and oh my

Michael Jamin:

God,

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

The guy who went on before me. But again, this is also after many, many shows under my belt. I wouldn't recommend just doing that. But we're talking about addressing this darkness in my soul because I already know a lot of things about myself. Honestly. I know the caliber that I can work at, and I know that I'm not necessarily a super joke Smith wordsmith. You know what I mean? I know my lane and I know my strengths and I know my experience, and I know that I am not just going on stage to be pissed off to shit on them. I know that I'm going to transform it into something. And I have enough experience to know that I can do that.

Michael Jamin:

That's so funny because you had this awful experience. The worst you show up, this is going to be terrible, and it turns out to be great because you acknowledge it. And were they there to see, I mean, it just seems like you're okay, I'm Chloe. How would I get out of this fucking mess?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Oh, I mean, you're really getting me going. I feel like I'm talking a lot because you're going right into the minutiae. That's very real. Things that become pump the show. When I first started going on the broad proper, 24 was actually still on the air. And I still had this, what was funny to me at least a decade ago was like, I'm uncomfortable. I don't like myself. I had this thought, very self-deprecating, which will never completely go away, but very self-deprecating point humor, which to me was hilarious to expose that. But when I took the stage and they were expecting to see Chloe, it was completely confusing to them going, you're a TV star, you're Chloe. What is this person, this weirdo,

Michael Jamin:

This

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Interior? I don't remember what the jokes were back then, but I developed, had to, it was like do or die. I had to survive. I had to sink or swim, and next thing you know, I've got a whole 15 minute chunk that's like, oh, you're my Jack Bauer. Oh, you. And I'm like, I'm not really good at computers guys. And I'm just playing because I can feel the energy and they need to be like that guy. He loves Jack Bauer. Oh, you're the Jack Bauer of the show. And I developed jokes within that and ER's not some of it dumb, but because they were so jacked up and only seeing that way that,

Michael Jamin:

But that's interesting. They have this expectation. It's natural. I guess they're coming to the show. Are they coming to see you now because of Chloe or because of your, what do you think? Why are they coming out? Do you think?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

It's a mixture now, and it really is a true mixture. It's people that don't know why they're there that don't know me from anything. It's people that know me from Always Sunny. It's people that know me, Chloe, those two camps want to fight with each other. And it's people who are comedy fans. It's a real mixture.

Michael Jamin:

Do you feel, this is odd, because this is also, I guess this speaks also to your celebrity, but when you meet someone when they want to meet you, they want to shake your hand, they want to take a picture of you, is there a sense that you're like, did I give you what you wanted?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Oh, yeah.

Michael Jamin:

What is that like for you?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I just let them say their thing

Michael Jamin:

And then what? That's all they want. You just let them give 'em a chance to voice what they're, and that's it.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

You have to do. And I try to hear back to them their energy, and I try to listen and sort of validate their entry point. Because it depends. Some people are like, oh, my parents showed me 24. Some people are still in 24. There are certain people that watch it over and over again. And then there's other people that are like Gail, the snail,

Whatever thing they want to experience. I try to, sometimes people will reference other things and always Sunny, they'll go, oh, I can't even think of it. I don't watch the show. I love them. I think they are top notch. I love all those guys. I love Caitlyn. Known her for a long time. I don't watch, I watch some, but people that watch that show have it memorized and they watch it over and over again and they make references to other things. And then I can see them a little bit. They're a little disappointed where I'm like,

Michael Jamin:

Isn't that weird?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

That thing.

Michael Jamin:

I get that even from, because we were on King of the Hill for five seasons, and sometimes people fans know the show better than I do, and I worked on it on shows that I worked on. I don't remember them as well. And they do. And I always feel like, I don't know, it's awkward. It's awkward for me. I don't know how I'm supposed to be in speech.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

And it's a huge compliment because you know that energy, you're like, yes, that's such a great, the fact that they identify with it and they know it so well is a wonderful thing. But as the person who creates it, you go like, yeah, I did it and then I moved on.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah,

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I'm not living in it, but it's such a beautiful thing when people are fans of stuff. It's just, I can't be there. I got to get a job. You have

Michael Jamin:

To be in the president. Exactly. I think that you see this a lot. I mean, he hear about this a lot about stars, who I find, I talked about this a while ago. I saw an old clip of Eve Plum who played Marsha Brady, and she was the Jerry's, I don't know what show. She was on something, maybe Jerry Sprinkler, I don't know. This is whatever, 20 years ago. And then someone from the audience said, they raised their hand. Can you just do it? I

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Remember that. I think I've seen that clip.

Michael Jamin:

And she was like, no. She like, she knew what she wanted and she wasn't going to do it. And then she kind of, so the woman was, can you just say, and she wanted her to say, Marsha, Marsha Marcia. And she wouldn't do it. And I felt I didn't blame her at all. I mean, you could see why she didn't want to do it. I didn't blame

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Her. That's probably for her. She's like, that was,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I was 10. Yeah. I can't pretend like I'm still a 10-year-old. I live in the present, and I don't think people recognize that. And it was a little heartbreaking because she was disappointing them. But you couldn't blame her today. What do you expect?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

It is heartbreaking. It goes from being an amazing thing to not cool after for a certain amount of time.

Michael Jamin:

Does it even for you the same way you mean?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

No, I mean, I really don't mind it. And I've learned, for the most part, most people are just really nice. So I'm very lucky. Most people are just like, they love it, and then they say that and then they move on. The only thing that's a little bit frustrating for me is running into a casting director who's thinks I'm still, I mean, this was a few years ago, but she's like, you're on a 24, right? I'm like, no, dude, that's been done for 13 years.

Michael Jamin:

No one's on 24.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

No, speaking of the strike. And I make no residuals. And I made a low amount of money. And people think, because such a high profile show that, oh, you're good, right? You're done. I need to change the image of myself. But whatever.

Michael Jamin:

You have to constantly, it doesn't end. I think people don't realize that, especially for actors, you have to constantly get work and nothing's a given. I am sure it's a little easier for you because people know that when they hire you, they're going to get a good performance. But it's not like you still got to audition. You still got to go out for stuff. So it's hard. Is it even hard? I mean, it must have much harder in the beginning, getting nos a lot as an actor hearing No. When you auditioned, getting rejected in the beginning, or was that not your case?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I mean, it's not, yeah, the nose is one thing, but I think it's what you were saying earlier, even though you were equating it to standup, for me, it's getting it up again. And some people are better at this, but it's making it a numbers game. But to put it out there per audition over and over again is harder than the nose. And I know the

Michael Jamin:

Oh, really?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah. It's like, I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

Do you have that same thing with standup as well, or no?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Here in my control. And more frequently you do it, but it also is a beast because if you take a few days off, it's like, oh, I got to get back in.

Michael Jamin:

Why do you say that? It's because the business side

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

And the timing and the rhythm

Michael Jamin:

And

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Being present, it's just a constant. You've got to constantly work out that muscle.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And so you do crowd work as well then It sounds like you interact with them. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have a preference?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

No. I mean, I remember there was this one club where the guy, it was, what's that word? Not vanity, but he was retired, but was like, I'm going to start a comedy club, but didn't put all this money into the drywall and the design and the sound, but the audience didn't know why they were there. There was no sense of when you go into an older comedy club, like the Comedy Store or some of these places that have been there forever, the punchline in San Francisco, everyone knows why they're there. The seats are close together, they're facing the stage. They're very simple things, but it's hard to create that like, oh, we go here to see comedy. And that gets lost a lot lately. And there was a new club, and I remember it was like Whack-a-Mole where I'm teaching them how to focus. We're at a show and these women, they're drinking like they're at a bar and they're talking to each other. And I'm like, oh. And I got off the stage, walked into the audience and was like, oh yeah, you guys. And they're like, we're divorced too, and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, yeah, we're the same, but you know what I wouldn't do. Go to your show and then act like I was at a bar. And they were like, oh. And they shut up. But I

Michael Jamin:

Butt that. So strange. That's the problem with standup. It's different when you're doing standup in front of a whatever. You sell a theater and you sell a lot of tickets. And when you're in a club, people might be there just to socialize with their fucking friends. And so it's a whole different thing, man. It's a whole different level of, they could be hostile. I don't know. That kind of stuff worries me a little bit. And I didn't stand up when I was much younger, but I wasn't thinking it through enough.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

What happened? Tell me about it.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, I don't know. I just did it. Maybe you've heard there's a club. I was from New York, so there's a couple of clubs nearby. I would do it on the weekends and stuff, and I didn't, colleges shows and stuff like that. But at some point I was like, you know what? I'd rather, what's the end goal? I have to be on the road. Or if I become a comedy writer, then I can just stay in one place and I can go to sleep at a decent hour. So that's what my thinking was, how to

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Be a comedy writer at the beginning. How did you learn how to edit down on the page?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, that's really hard because it's a different thing. I had took some classes and then I teamed up with Seabert, and then we started writing more scripts together. And then you have to learn story structure. That's the hardest thing there is. But even I remember driving out here from New York after I graduated thinking, okay, think of something funny. What the fuck? No, it doesn't work that way, man. I didn't have a voice. That's why I was talking. I didn't know.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

So how did you find your voice?

Michael Jamin:

The voice thing? Well, when you're writing on a TV show, you don't, you find the voice of you, the actor you're writing for, or you find the voice for the characters that are already there, not supposed to have your voice. You're supposed to have their voice. And so when I was writing my book, maybe you can see it. So I wrote this book and I've been performing on it. So this is why I'm so curious to talk to performers. And the whole process of finding my voice was really scary. In the beginning. It was like, well, what can I write on my own without an executive giving me notes without, and then finding your voice meant just being honest. And that was really hard.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

It was like, it feels like the wrong answer. Just be honest. Boom.

Michael Jamin:

Well be honest with who you are. You have to speak the truth. You have to be vulnerable. But there are times, as I've been performing two theaters, so it's not standup because that's different. You're selling tickets and people are friendly. But there have been times before I go up every show, I kind of say to myself, why am I doing this again? I'm getting 'em nervous. Why am I doing this?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

You're back in it. You're performing.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. We'll just see where it takes me.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

And have you done a lot of, are you on the road?

Michael Jamin:

Well, I've done, we did, I don't know, maybe I think eight shows in LA in a couple in Boston, and then I'm waiting for the book to drop. Then I'll go back on the road again and we'll see where I can sell tickets. That's the hard We'll see. We'll see. People say they want to see me. Well, we'll see. Because you're literally selling one ticket at a time. You're like, you're talking about, Hey, come see me Boston. And you look at the ticket sales, oh, there's a sale. Then you do another post and then another ticket sale. So it's hard. Everything's hard now. Is that your experience at all? Is any of this your experience?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

No, my shit is just, I'm just really selling out everywhere.

Michael Jamin:

Do you promote a lot? Is that what the podcast is for? At

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Woo. You do on all platforms at that. Okay. Sorry, what'd you say?

Michael Jamin:

No. Is that what the podcast is for? To help let people know you're coming to their city or something?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah. And because Jeffrey does feature for me, I mean, that would be really, again, pretty dreamy. If it's kind of all is starts part of the same package that people could listen to it, hear us, come see us live.

Michael Jamin:

Right. You could even do your podcast live. Is that something you want to do?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah. I mean, no, at this point, it depends.

Michael Jamin:

How many episodes are you dropping? You do one a week or something. And do you shoot it? Where do you record it?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

We record it in Sun Valley.

Michael Jamin:

In Sun Valley?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Is that good or bad? What's wrong with that?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Our producers are there and they put

Michael Jamin:

It out. They have a studio. Yeah,

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

They have a studio.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I know Sun Valley. Yeah.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Awesome.

Michael Jamin:

I like Sun Valley. They got that. Nice. There's a Latuna Canyon. It's my favorite road to tripod.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Oh

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I know the area Well.

Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my content, and I know you do because you're listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michaeljamin.com. And now back to, what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about?

Is there other projects? I don't know what you want to work on other than I'm so curious. I really am curious to see where else this will take you, all this energy you're putting into.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I know, right?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I mean, other than I guess acting, I don't know anything else.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Well, the thing is, I don't know what else to do because I am an artist, so it's always been tied to my personal life and my personal expression, and there's a therapeutic aspect to it. And I don't really, I feel like if I could have taken the route of, I don't know. I never had the ability to be like, I'm going to write scripts, so I just amped up the thing that I am good at, and I'm hoping that it, I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

What about theater do you think about? Or is that just not,

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

That's a money maker right there.

Michael Jamin:

Well, but you could say, is it less of a money maker than standup? Is that what it is?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I think so. I think it's less of a moneymaker and more of a commitment.

Michael Jamin:

Well, I saw a show yesterday at the Geffen. It was a small little show. The theater was probably 99 CSS or something. I don't know. It was a nice little show. Yeah, okay. But when you go on the road though, you're effectively saying, you're effectively saying, I can't audition. I can't be booked for anything. Well,

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah, but if there's no shows that are booking you, then you're like, that's what I've been on the road. Because it's been sort of a diminishing return of, I mean, there's no auditions to have really,

Michael Jamin:

I don't know. I don't know. And so are your agents help with that, or do you have a separate booking agent for the road? We

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Don't want to go down the road of what is really, of how this is working for me.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, I'm so indelicate because I see all the time.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

No, not at all. It's just

Michael Jamin:

I see you on Instagram performing and I'm like, you're doing, you're funny. You're great. It seems like you're doing fantastic in my eyes. So that's why I'm like, yeah,

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I'm doing fantastic.

Michael Jamin:

And then you get booked on all these shows and I don't know. I don't know. I think you've done a pretty amazing career, mean, especially when you look at all that you have done.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah, look at it that way.

Michael Jamin:

It's

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Been really amazing. What do I get to do from here? I don't know. And honestly, looking back on it, I've never known it'd be a nice idea for me to be able to go, I'm going to have this. I'm going to have that, and that's going to pay off.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. So for me, I would be very, you're an artist, so an artist. So artists know that there's nothing, the freedom is, that's the trade-off making that trade off. So how are you making sure that you're good with that? How do you not worry about it? How do you not stress? How do you like, okay, I'm making art.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

It's really scary.

Michael Jamin:

You lean into it.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah, I just lean into it and I've been lucky enough to get a certain amount of work, and I look back on the year and I go, I don't know how I did it.

Michael Jamin:

Really. Right. I have the same fear as myself. I'm like, okay, I've done it every year up till now, but I don't know how I'm going to do it this year. Same

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Thing. I've had enough success that I, hopefully I have the building blocks you're saying to be enough of a name to get in the door and make enough money to keep it going. It's just like a big gamble. And I think I'm saying we're going down a dark road. It's not that I'm negative about it because I really love my career and I love what I do, but it does get to the point where you're like, how much energy do I have? It's a life of sacrifice. I don't live the traditional life, especially now that I'm divorced. And it's like, what's going on? If you would've told me I would be driving to West Hollywood to do sets, I'm going, well, this feeds me. This helps me feel alive. It helps me feel creative. It must lead to something. And if it doesn't,

Michael Jamin:

But do you have friends from back where you grew up who have vastly different non Hollywood lives who've just taken these jobs where, and can you relate to them now?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

No.

Michael Jamin:

When was the last time you tried? Because I was recently at an event where I saw some people I grew up with and I was like, they all seem so grown up.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

They really know what's going on.

Michael Jamin:

They,

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

They really have these foundational beliefs, and they'll explain their insurance policies to you and they'll tell you about the drains in their yard. They have intimate knowledge of the duct work, and they're remodeling the kitchen and they're

Michael Jamin:

Right. It is always about the remodeling of the kitchen. That's the big one. And whenever I hear it, I always get a little insecure. I always feel like, am I doing something wrong?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Oh yeah, I get really, because they'll have the parties where it's the same people come into the same place. And so-and-so's bringing that same casserole again.

Michael Jamin:

And

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I don't have that.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, you don't have that?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

No. My friends that I have in the twenties, everyone went off and had their lives. And also I've moved a lot of, and I get to socialize doing standup. But then you're like, hi, bye. And then you kind of go back to your life and

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, because I wonder, I don't know why I'm thinking of this, so I wonder if they have the same thoughts about your life. Are they like, man, Mary Lynn's got it, she did it. Or Mary Lynn doesn't have a, can't talk about drains.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I think it's both my best that it's probably like, oh gosh, that poor thing. She has no stability. On the other hand, it'll be the people that are like, can I go with you? Can I come on the road with you? And I'm like, really?

Michael Jamin:

I wonder, are they serious, do you think? Or what?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I don't know. There's different versions of it. There's the woman that I ran into that I went to high school with who had a son, I think at the time, this was years ago, she had a 12-year-old son. She's like, can I be your assistant and come on the road with you? And it's like, I don't know what she was worked at some company that sold fans or something like ceiling fans. I don't know what you think this is, but oh, you're going to take, first of all, I'm not going to pay you anything. If I'm able to pay anything, it's going to be a drastic pay cut and then what the same bed as me, and you're going to be away from your son. How does that work? And you're going to do exactly what.

Michael Jamin:

And do you ask them that? Or is it just like you just kind of change the subject?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I just change the subject.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. I think because obviously this,

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

It's kind of messed up. It's sort of a compliment of like, oh, you think this is some fantastical thing? Yeah, let's just change the subject and let that live in your mind as some other than what it actually is.

Michael Jamin:

They don't see the reality of it. They really don't, which is so interesting.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

No, it's part of the magic of going on stage and doing a show. I'm sure any person could stop and go, oh, she probably napped until 4:00 PM and didn't talk to anybody except for two words to the lady at the front desk. But you get to be there and have this show and have the magic of being in that moment and being in that space.

Michael Jamin:

Is it hard for you to come down after you perform?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I've gotten used to it.

Michael Jamin:

I mean, so what do you do? Do you hang out at the comedy club for a little bit or you just head back and go a little bit? You do a little bit, a little bit. Interesting. And then you can go back to sleep. I dunno, it's hard to come down from when you're on stage. You are in 100%. You're giving everything. You're not letting a moment. Your mind is racing. You're not letting anything. It's not like a day at the office where you get your feet up and you're really not paying attention. You are a hundred percent in it, and it's exhausting. A

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

High and a low. Yeah, for sure.

Michael Jamin:

It's exhausting, right? I mean, it really is. Yeah, it's great. But it's exhausting

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Typically. I mean, I'm not saying everyone's like this, but typically it's like sometimes you'll have friends in the city and they're like, oh, come with us to dinner. It's like, I'm not sitting for dinner before a show.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, you got to focus, right? Do you run through your set before every show or you at the point you don't need to do that?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Well, right now I'm running through my set because I'm taping in Chicago, but I'm only doing one show. So I'm trying to trick myself because usually you do a whole weekend and I will get an idea of the set list. And then sometimes, a lot of times I will have an incident or some fact about the city. So I'll try to have that at the beginning as a greeting of something that happened that day or facts about their city. And depending on sometimes that'll be more fruitful than others, and that'll get me going. I'll think of something funny that I can just try off the cuff at the beginning of that.

Michael Jamin:

Well, that's interesting. So are you trying to give these shows a shape or is it just like, I want to give as many laughs as I can in however long I'm on stage, or is there a shape to it?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Usually as many laughs and I've gotten to the point where, and this is because I've done a ton of shows lately, it's gotten to the point where point, this last time I was out, I just went, I'm going to do my closer first once I get to the end of that to see where the energy is and to see what I say next.

Michael Jamin:

So you tried doing your closer first, which is going to be strong, and then what happened when you got to the end of your set? You're like, I don't have a closer now.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I mean, it was really fun. It was really exciting. It got it to this level and the energy carried through to the other pieces, and it kind of caused me to deliver the other things better, honestly.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, that's interest. That really is interesting.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Ending on something else, but I have enough to play around with where Yeah, you're kind of in your head. I'm going, oh, I guess I'm going to say that now I'm present, but I'm also moving things around a little bit.

Michael Jamin:

And it's that, you're right, it is about that. The excitement is when you don't get the laugh where you thought you were going to get a laugh, you go things, they're about to go off the rails, right?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah. The way you're thinking about this, I'm like, you're going to be on the road doing standup soon.

Michael Jamin:

I don't know. It's such a different thing. It really is such a different thing. Like I said, sometimes the audiences, well, sometimes they're not really there to see you. They're there to go out with their friends and have a drink and you're just in their way. You're talking through their night out in the town. I've seen it enough guys. It can be rude. Staff can be, they can be rude.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Go to a bar. What are you doing?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, what are you doing? Yeah, but I feel like when I, at least when I perform, it's a little different. They're there to ing. I feel like someone asked me before, what are you going to do if they heckle? I'm like, oh, no one's going to heckle. That's not that kind of show. I would assume that's not going to happen. Not that kind of show. It's like,

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I'm sad I missed your LA show. So are you reading from your book and talking in between or

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, it's more performative. It's like a reading is here, but it is really up and out. It's up and out. It's kind of like, well, have you ever seen any David Seras? You ever seen it perform? Yeah, it's a little like that, but it's a little more performative, a little more, but that's what it is. So I'll let you know when the next time is, but yeah, it was a little terrifying the first time, and I had to take acting lessons. I had to learn how to act.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

You did

Michael Jamin:

Well. Yeah. I, I've directed actors, but it's one thing when you do it yourself. Here's the problem. My wife directed, and I met her when she was an actor, so she knows how to act because I met her on set, and so she directs it, and she's like, the first time we're rehearsing, she goes, you're taking the stage all wrong. I'm like, what do you mean? Because I'm walking on stage and it's like that. She's like, no, no, no, no, no. You're a rock star when you take the stage. I'm like, but I'm not a rock star. You are. When you take the stage and it's a whole different energy.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Imagine people going, it's Chloe from 24, and I'm like, hi guys. I just learned by throwing myself into that fire, like, oh, I have to match at least what their images of me and then more I've got to bring myself,

Michael Jamin:

Because they're coming to see someone famous. They're coming to see their favorite character on a TV show, whatever it is, and that's what they want. That's what they

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Want. Got to represent your work. Otherwise it's like, why is this guy,

Michael Jamin:

Why is this guy here?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Or it's like, what is that?

Michael Jamin:

They don't want that. That's exactly right. They don't want that.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

That is the equivalent of a strong choice out of the gate, a clear intention, but

Michael Jamin:

It felt like imposter syndrome, it felt like, but I'm not, it's too bad. That's what they want to see. That's what they paid to see. Yeah.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

No, that's great.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, so there's a bunch of stuff like that and also about Jesus, it's about giving, allowing, allowing there to be a silent moment for a second, which is terrifying. Oh

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah. I love the silences.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I mean, it's different when you're reading from your book, but through the acting point of view is because you're listening.

Michael Jamin:

You're listening.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

It's not meant to be like, here's what I'm saying. The words are an after effect of your intention and what you're reacting to.

Michael Jamin:

But in my case, there's an audience and it's dark. I can't see them. I know they're there. And so when you say I'm listening, I'm not hearing anything. I'm just sensing it, right?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Well, no, you're listening to, you are becoming a listener within your own material that you're presenting.

Michael Jamin:

You think I'm listening to myself,

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

So you're like, standup is similar in that. I'm not explaining it so clearly, but it's like I had to learn in standup because I am an actor, that I'm the narrator, so I hold the space and I create the context, but I'm also the character within it. So it's the character that's listening. So you are presenting it. You're not the rockstar, but the character guy that's going to come. I'm telling you this story, and once I start telling you the story, I enter into that story and I become the character of the story.

Michael Jamin:

It's so interesting. You have given this thing, this performing thing, a lot of thought, right? Am I right? You think about this a lot. I mean, most actors or I don't think people appreciate that as much talking like an artist would talk. I really think so, because you're saying you've given a lot of thought. You're explaining the thought. You don't just go up there and talk. That's not what you're doing. You've given it a lot of thought about what your obligation is to being on stage and how you have to, I guess, the obligation to the art that you create.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Another point of that listening thing goes back to the point of view, which you do when you're writing scripts in order to write through that person's voice. Voice, listen, that character listens in a certain way, so it's their perspective,

Michael Jamin:

But call on a little bit more about, okay, so what is it you think I have to do or B, when I'm on stage, give me some acting. Give me some lessons here.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Well, it depends on what you're saying, but I think I was going off of you saying the silences imagining you take a moment because you've just said something and you're wanting to sink in, or what you've said had a certain tone, certain or intention that you don't want to rush through because you've either just made a point or you expressed something in a certain way that needs space.

Michael Jamin:

It requires a lot of trust though, because when you take that space, you want the audience, I want to let you feel it. Just take a second to feel it. But the trust it requires is that they are actually feeling it.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

That's right.

Michael Jamin:

And maybe they're not. That's the problem.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

That's right. Space in between is the dangerous, and when you talk about on, when I see you on ig, talking about AI is like, this is the back and forth that we want. This is the we come together. I'm going to say something. I'm going to see if it affects you. I'm going to say it with an intention. Did you hear it the way that I intended or did something else happen? Making me think of those articles. When you press listen and it comes out in an AI voice,

Michael Jamin:

What people, that's what they don't get. Yeah, that's what they don't get. When I talk about can AI do what artists do? And they go, yes, they can. I've already seen it, and they're like, I don't think you understand the thought that we put into this. I think you're missing what we try to do here.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

And you do that all the time, because I've watched a lot of your clips lately where you'll be explaining something and then you'll digress and go into a joke, and you're immediately without thinking about it because you thought of the joke, and then you're acting it out, and then you're going back to what you're saying. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

But sometimes even when I watch myself, I go, eh, I did it better in my head.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Exactly.

Michael Jamin:

That's exactly right. Yeah. But to me, so I'm glad you said this. I think that it actually helps me. That's the part that I was getting stuck on, the trusting that the audience is feeling what I want to feel in that silence and that they're not doing this or whatever.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Right now, you're in the position to deliver it, usually giving your script to someone else and going, you be in the Deliver it walk. I'll tell you, if you're delivering it, now you're in the driver's seat of that,

Michael Jamin:

And it really gives me a new appreciation for really how hard it is. And by the way, do it 10 times while the cameras are over here and while people are walking and, oh, this is going on. We need you to be in that moment 10 times and oh, off walk and go and now, yeah, it's a hard job being in that moment. Yeah,

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

That's the weirdest part.

Michael Jamin:

What do it now.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah, because you're making yourself vulnerable again and again, and you're coming to that point over of jumping off. I remember I was at school, it was like a game of throne sketch and there was another mom, and it was just that we were out on the lawn of the school and it was something for the fundraiser and one of the other moms were joking around, I'm doing my bit, and the camera turns to her and she's got whatever it was, whatever spoof of somebody wrote, it turns to her and she went and she got it, fucked her up. And I started laughing and I was like, yeah, it's humiliating. And she had to say, it was like one line as my dragons, and she just went, ah. And I watched her just crumble. And I go, yeah, yeah, yeah. That moment every time you hit that point of humiliation because you've got to open up and commit and put yourself out there to make an ass of yourself or put the most tender parts of yourself, you're getting ready for the moment and then when the moment happens, I don't know. It's a weird thing you're showing up. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

Exactly. You said it perfectly. I totally understand that. And so she just thought this was going to be easy and it made you laugh because it's like, see, this is every day I got to do this

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Weird thing. Well, I don't know why someone is holding a camera. They just turned it on you and they said, say a certain thing in a certain way. How do you do that?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. It makes you self-conscious of your existence now you Right. And then what do you do then when you're on, when you become aware of your existence and your acting, what do you do?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

What do you do? You're heads and the cameras are on you and you're like, oh fuck, I'm in a show. There's lights and everything.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

That's the question. Hopefully you get paid for it is what you do.

Michael Jamin:

Hopefully you

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Get paid to figure out,

Michael Jamin:

You get paid, right. But so do you talk to other actors a lot about this? Is this a conversation actress? Why not?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

No, but when I do, because I should more, it's actually is really, honestly, it's pretty invigorating. But I'll run into people and we'll sort of organically stumble upon it. Maybe there are people that talk about it. I don't, it's very nice when I get to have comradery like

Michael Jamin:

That. But when you've been on set and you surely you've worked with some, let's say, older, bigger stars, you don't ask 'em, Hey, how about some tips? What do you do?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Not really. I mean, there was one thing I wrote about it in my book called Ish, also my podcast at that. Woo. You do. But there

Michael Jamin:

Was one, and that's a great title by the way.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Thank you so much. It's on the 24 where I had to act to a blank computer screen, but someone I knew or cared about was being tortured. But in the moment it was like go and I was just by myself in front of a blank computer screen and I did ask Kiefer's advice and it was super helpful. And he really actually stood off screen and talked me through it. So he became my partner and he was telling me what I was seeing. So he helped me with some.

Michael Jamin:

What was the advice he gave specifically, do you remember?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

It wasn't really advice, he just helped me. It was like, okay, he's on the bike, the guys are coming up to him. They grabbed his head, he fell on the ground. So I was reacting. He was acting out the scene for me

Michael Jamin:

And he

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Letting me know that I wasn't crazy for going, how do you do this? I'm sitting in front of the blank screen. And so in that moment, from that point on, if he wasn't there, I knew how to, I'm just creating that in my head.

Michael Jamin:

A lot of people think that's the job of the director on a TV show, but often there's really no time for them to even do any of that, right?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Correct. They're thinking of a bunch of different things and they might course correct you, but they're not giving you, this is the actor's work is to know all that. They'll make adjustments along the way, but they're looking at all these other aspects at the same time.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. It's not what maybe you think it is. It's not like a rehearsal time. It's like, no, you show up to work. Go and go. Did you study? Did you train a lot for, where did you train for?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

No, I was lucky enough to get very much on the job training

Michael Jamin:

Because the way you talk about it, it makes it sound like you did study.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I mean, I've taken a couple classes here or there, but nothing. It was sort of on the fly. I did acting in high school, so I knew I sort of knew what blocking was, but I really got schooled. I got schooled by Gary Shambling. I was already on the Larry Show, and I put this in my book too, and he's like, cut. And he looks at me and he goes, what are you thinking? I was like, oh, because he called me out because I wasn't anything. And I was like, and he goes, you need to know what your character is thinking. I was reacting and I was interesting, but at the moment he knew there was a backstory that I was supposed to have in my mind and I didn't. And he called me out on it. And from that point forward, I was like, oh, subtext. I was just like a part. I just happened to be whatever, lucky enough to be interesting or have certain qualities. I got hired and I sort of instinctually did it. But from that moment on, I was like, subtext, subtext, subtext.

Michael Jamin:

So this discussion we just had, these are just basically questions you've been asking yourself over the course of your career and thinking about Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is so interesting. Like other actors, you're talking about stuff that's been taught and you came to it yourself, and it's only the way you came to it is because you have to ask these questions. If you're an actor, it doesn't matter if it's your teacher teaches you or you figure it out yourself, it all leads to the truth, which is what you have to do. Or

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

A lot of times it's like how to make something work like you're hired or even you're asked to do a comedy sketch and it's like, how do I sell this joke, but be true to the intention, but move the scene forward. Also, it could be anything. It could be like, oh, I'm at a table so that I am not seeing that thing that would've caused me to react. It's just, yeah, you're always being asked questions. How do I thing quickly or whatever.

Michael Jamin:

It's a shame that our show didn't go, we could have had this discussion 10 years ago.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I know we really could have been creating episodes

Michael Jamin:

And talking about stuff and making art or something, but instead we have podcasts. Well, I guess we could wrap, but I've taken so much of your time. But I want to thank you so much for, let's talk about, let's plug your podcast one more time and make sure, is there any, well, I don't know when this is going to drop, or also I'd say see you on the road, but you must have a website where people could find out where they can follow you on the road or your Instagram or something.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

It's Mary Lynn, mary lynn.com. Follow me on Instagram and go check out at that. Will you do in between listening to your podcast?

Michael Jamin:

Oh yeah. Go. Definitely check it out. And yeah, it's interesting. I think this will have people have a new appreciation for what you do because you make it look easy, but it's not, you put a lot of thought into this.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I love it. I really do. So, so great. I'm so happy that you're having all this success on social because you're just very natural and insightful and inquisitive and caring and thoughtful.

Michael Jamin:

I hope so. That's the character I play. That's my character.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

You're a factor.

Michael Jamin:

My character is nicer than I am. But thank you so much. Thank you so much for joining me, and don't go anywhere I was. Thank you. One more time as we sign up. Alright everyone, another interesting talk about art and writing and creativity. Thank you so much. Until next week, keep writing or doing whatever it's you're doing.

So now we all know what the hell Michael Jamin's talking about. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for my free monthly webinars @michaeljamin.com/webinar. And if you found this podcast helpful or entertaining, please share it with a friend and consider leaving us a five star review on iTunes that really, really helps. For more of this, whatever the hell this is, follow Michael Jamin on social media @Michael Jamiwriter and you can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane and music was composed by Anthony Rizzo. And remember, you can have excuses or you can have a creative life, but you can't have both. See you next week.

Michael Jamin & Phil Hudson discuss the difference between TV specs and TV pilots, what Hollywood wants to see today, the primary job of a staff writer, and the big problem facing young writers.

https://michaeljamin.com/course - Michael Jamin's Online Screenwriting Course

https://michaeljamin.com/free - Free Screenwriting Lesson

Michael: (00:00)

When I'm running a show, we're working it. Should we ne like no one has a stopwatch out. We're never thinking what, 15 minutes. This has to happen. Except like, it just doesn't work that way. It's such a bizarre in my mind. It's almost fascinating to hear you say that because it's was like, whoa, we don't do any of that. So like, it seems to me it's making it unnecessarily hard and like, it doesn't, it's not helpful. You're listening to screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael Jen. All right, everyone. Welcome to the big show today. We're talking about specs versus pilots. What does that mean? I don't even know. I've got to think this through Phil.

Phil: (00:39)

Yeah. This is an interesting one. I, one time took a kid to a lunch in film school and I told them what I was working on. And I remember thinking he brought this up and he was just using this terminology. And I know like what a spec versus a pilot is. And I know what a spec versus a commission is, but he used them interchangeably. And so I think there might be some confusion about, about these, especially in the world of television. Yeah.

Michael: (01:05)

Because there's a lot of the words are kind of used interchangeably. It's an it's unnecessarily complicated. But basically when you're trying to get a show where you're trying to get staffed on a show, uh, you need a writing sample. And so your writing sample could be a piece, an original piece of work, like a pilot that you've written about. You've created it's all yours. Or you could spec an existing show. So you write a sample episode of the show, Barry or whatever, and jolly just so that's two different samples that you, you could show people in this

Phil: (01:34)

Stands for speculation, meaning you're writing to on speculation that you could sell it or that it, that I think that's where it comes from the film world. Right. Writing it on spec versus, um, I've been hired to do.

Michael: (01:45)

Right. So you're right. In other words, don't right. No, one's paying you for it. But the odds of

Phil: (01:49)

It's an assumption of risk, I think, is really what it comes down to. Right? Yeah. So writer's Guild says, if you sell a feature on spec, you get paid more because you took the risk of writing it on your own dime versus them hiring you to do a job. And now you're getting paid less because they're assuming the risk that's right. So I think that's where the terminology comes with. Go ahead.

Michael: (02:09)

But the odds of the truthfully, the odds of you selling your spec pilot are very, very low. It's really just a calling card. It's a, it's a sample of your work to get you a job on a show so that you could get so that you rise up the ranks and you earn the right at some point in the future to sell a show. So most people think, well, I got a show I'm going to sell it. It's like, it doesn't really work that way. Doesn't work that way for me, you know? And I've been doing it for 26 years. So it's not going to work that way for Joe average in the middle of Indiana. Right. So, right. Okay. So back in the day when I was coming up, there were four networks. So there wasn't a lot of choice. So everyone kind of knew the same shows.

Michael: (02:46)

The big hit shows everyone watched, or at least sample they knew a little bit about. So you would write a spec episode of like, say, say Seinfeld or cheers or friends, or on the drama side, you might write a spec. ER, everyone knew those shows. So whoever was reading your shows would know the tone of it. They don't the characters and you'd write your spec episode of that show and people would read it and they get, okay. Yeah. I've seen the show enough to know that this is a good sample or not. But today the market is, uh, you know, there's so much, there's so many shows out there and no, there are no giant hits anymore. And so there's not one show that everyone is watching really there's shows that like people are popular shows, like let's say like Barry, or let's say a Ted lasso.

Michael: (03:26)

People seem to watch those, but it's not like it gets the millions and millions of views that everyone else, all the other show is used to get. It's still like a tiny share. So the way the agents and, um, studio executives, what they recommend is not to write a spec episode of an existing show since, you know, no one really knows that language anymore. They want you to write a spec episode of your oven, or they want you to write in an episode or a pilot episode of, of something that came out of your own head and their original idea and original pilot, and use that as a writing sample to get you work. But there's a problem with that in my opinion. Okay. The problem is writing, uh, writing an episode of our characters that already exist. It requires it's actually a lot easier than creating a brand new show from whole cloth.

Michael: (04:15)

And it's a whole different skill set. And if you're trying to get on a, a staff of a TV show, you don't need to, you don't need that skill set. You don't need to be, know how to create characters and create a world. Like all you need to know is how to, can you, what can I mimic the world that already exists? So I feel that's an unfair burden that studio executives and agents or managers are kind of putting on new writers. Like you're saying, Hey, this is much harder, but this is what you need to do because the world has changed so much the world of TV, at least. And you know, like I said, as a showrunner, I don't really care if you can create these characters. I want to know if you can, uh, if you can run an episode for my characters from my world and also as a store owner, it's harder for me to read those scripts because now it's like, I can read an episode of friends and I know I'm dating myself.

Michael: (05:02)

I think friends, okay. Let's say two and a half men or the big bang theory or something a little more recent. I can, um, I know those characters and know how they talk. I know how they should sound. I'm familiar with them. Uh, and it's easier for me. It's a lot less work for me to read a script and determine whether you are doing a good job mimicking that tone, but for new, when you create your own world, it's like, okay, now I got to who are these characters again? I gotta flip back. I gotta remind myself who this character is. And I got to remind myself, wait, what's the tone of this show supposed to be? Is it supposed to be silly or is this supposed to be broad? Uh, until it's, it's more work on my end and it's a lot more work on the person who has to write it. Yeah,

Phil: (05:39)

Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. And so you're what you're saying is the job of a staff writer is to mimic the showrunners voice. And although the pilot can't show creativity, that doesn't showcase that skillset.

Michael: (05:52)

Yeah. We don't need to know. We don't need to know if you can rate it, create a show. That'll come years later when you create your own show. So it's a little, it's kind of a, it's a bummer. Um, but when you, so when you create one, so, okay. We have to accept the fact that you really don't have any choice here. Let's say you have to re create all these pilots. Now you are going to want to create many pilots in different tones because, and by tone, I mean, uh, is it broad or is it real? Is it grounded? Is it crazy? Is it wacky, you know, on the Simpsons, Homer went to the moon. Well, you know, on family guy, uh, you know, Peter gets murdered every episode or he takes chops, loaves his legs off, like, and then suddenly she has legs in the next scene, you know, or I'll shoot his daughter in the face. Like that's just off the board wacko. Crazy. That show was a really fun show. But the tone of that is just, is like almost, uh, it's almost fantastical, whereas a show, uh, like BoJack horseman, even though he's a talking horse, it's very, it's much more realistic. He's, you know, he deals with issues of psychology and, and real problems with people. So it's a much more grounded show, even though he's a talking horse.

Phil: (06:59)

Okay. And so in the past, if I was writing samples of shows, I would want to take that same note. And I would say, I want to be able to write a Berry, which is a completely different tone than say, um, big bang theory. Yeah, yeah.

Michael: (07:13)

Different than any other. And also, and those, for example, and buried, by the way, a single camera show and big bang was a multi-camera show. And if you don't know the difference, so a single camera show look kind of looks like a movie shot like a movie. Often they use two cameras at the same time they're shooting it, but it's called single camera. Whereas a multi-camera show sometimes called a four camera show worth. I'm going to make them confusing. Sometimes it's called a three or four camera show, but a multi-camera show is shot on a soundstage in front of a live in front of a studio audience. So you hear those laughters and it's, it's, it's very perceptive and shot. Like it's like a, it's like going to theater. So people, those characters never, you know, they never leave the theater, the exist only on that stage. Whereas a single camera show, like let's say big, uh, modern family. They would shoot that on location. They go to this location, that location and the writing style is a little different. They both, you both have to understand story, uh, like, uh, a great understanding of story for both, but the way they're written, um, there there's some various, uh, there's a slight difference. There

Phil: (08:13)

There's some formatting differences too, right?

Michael: (08:15)

Yeah. And those multi-camera shows tend to be a joke heavier because you have a studio audience and there's that pressure to keep them laughing when you shoot it. And so those shows you record a multi-camera show, uh, in both single camera and multi-camera show you are, uh, I don't know, that's not really what we're suppose to be talking about, but, but I, I find myself fascinated by my own voice on a continue. Let's go. Um, and I'm on a single camera show. It takes about a week to shoot and a multi-camera show. It takes a week to shoot, but this, the production schedules are very different. A multi-camera show. You have a day where you rehearse, you put on a show on Friday night and in front of an audience. But on that, Monday is the first day of rehearsal and you rehearsed it day two.

Michael: (08:59)

You were here set on Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and finally, you know, Friday, you put up on its feet, whereas a single camera show on Monday, you have a rehearsal. I got like a table read where the actress just read it. And then Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, you're shooting the thing you are shooting it. So, and it's because it takes longer to shoot. So there's less rehearsal for those. So by nature of that, because you have so much more rehearsal for a multi-camera show, uh, the each line is really, is really crafted and it's make as funny as possible. You put it, there's a lot of pressure to make the jokes really pop. Whereas a multi-cam a single camera show. You don't really have that same pressure. Okay.

Phil: (09:36)

Um, multi-camera show you've done several of those in your, in your, in both. Yeah. So in that world, you, as the writer of that episode would be on set or on the stages while they're shooting, right. Just to rewrite something

Michael: (09:48)

For a multi-camera show, all the writers on set all the time, God, all the time, a single, single camera show because it takes so long to shoot it. Uh, there's usually only one writer on set and that might be the showrunner, or it might be someone in the showrunners proxy. You might be a proxy, which could be the person who wrote that episode. Or it could be, let's say a co-executive producer.

Phil: (10:07)

Got it. So, because I'm not doing specs anymore, you know, um, I'm assuming that the spec work is the real work that helps you prepare for the job of being a staff writer, because you are watching a show, you're internalizing the voices, the characters, and you're crafting stories that fit into that world and match that tone. Yeah. Likewise, um, I could do the same thing in the world of a pilot where, but that seems like a lot more work because I have to create the characters, the setting, the reason these people are together. And so it's almost like, it seems like easier and better practice to do the spec, even though people are asking for a pilot.

Michael: (10:47)

Yeah. Yeah. And if your spec by the, if it's a show that like all comedy writers know Barry, they we've all watched Barry. So I think that'd be okay. Show despair, even though it's not known by the billions of people in the outside world, I think they'd be perfectly fine to spec that same thing with maybe Ted lasso. It seems to people seem to really like, um, those are probably be good specs. Uh, and I, like I said, I would, I would prefer to read that. I, and then I'm just judging it. I'm terms of like, okay, does this person understand a story structure? Uh, how has their dialogue, is it, is it punchy? Does it flow? Does a sound like the dialogue in the existing show? I don't need to know the other stuff. The other factors that go into creating a TV show, it doesn't help me. I don't need that. Okay.

Phil: (11:29)

And so I write these specs, I write these spec pilots. I practice them as I think that begs the question, like how does one approach both of these situations. And so I just want to walk you through what I was taught in film school and my television writing class. And I want you to tell me if you think this seems like a good format. Okay. Sounds good. You've already found. All right. Let's send the ascended episode. I do think that there, there were some things lacking here. Um, because as I've worked with you, as I've sat in writers rooms as a writer's PA, as I've sat on set, as I've seen rewrites of episodes, I've noticed that there are things that we didn't address per se in our classes. Yeah. Let's dive in. What we were taught to do was basically watch multiple episodes of the TV show, which sounds like a good idea. And then we were basically instructed to take a stopwatch and the time every single scene and count the number of scenes, and basically just put them into a spreadsheet and say, this, this act before this commercial break, there were this many scenes and they took this long and added together. I can expect my act one for this show to be this long. Yeah.

Michael: (12:36)

Yeah. I would never, I would never approach, uh, when I was running, when I'm running a show, we're working. It should, we knew like no one has a stopwatch out. We're never thinking, well, at 15 minutes, this has to happen and stuff like, it just doesn't work that way. It's such a bizarre in my mind, a it's almost fascinating to hear you say that because it was like, whoa, we don't do any of that. So like, it seems to me it's making it unnecessarily hard and like, it doesn't, it's not helpful.

Phil: (13:04)

I think what I took from that is what's happening in these scenes more than what, how long are these scenes taking or what are the number of scenes? And it was really looking at, you know, who is leading this scene, who is leading these. And I think that the reason that was interesting to me is because you and I had already had some back and forth about what story structure should look like. Yeah. But in general, what I noticed when we got to the next step, you know, two steps down. So then we take it, we break our own story, we kind of fit it into this formula. And then we do a table read. And what I noticed is that most of the table reads scripts. You know, the scripts that we've table read in our class, they were a lot of people doing things about a lot of nothing happening

Michael: (13:44)

Or the characters. I mean, yeah,

Phil: (13:46)

It was, it wasn't like, we're really pushing towards one big thing. It wasn't like we had any real focus or drive through these moments of action. And there were moments of conversation, but it was almost like every single scene was set up to be its own unique act. And they didn't really take me anywhere.

Michael: (14:05)

It sounds like you got bogged down in the minutia, but you missed the bigger picture. Yeah.

Phil: (14:09)

Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's because there was just a general lack of conversation about actual story structure rather than, you know, here's how many scenes you should have versus sequences you should have versus

Michael: (14:21)

Well, it's like when I could walk as a TV writer, even though I'm in comedy, I could walk into any writers room in Hollywood. If they let me, if there were writers who are not on zoom anymore because of the pandemic, but I could walk into any writer's room, drama, comedy, whatever, and jump right in and fit right in because we all speak the same language, which is story. And none of us are talking about holding stopwatches and, and, you know, we don't, we just didn't thought how we approach.

Phil: (14:44)

So I know the answer to this, but you know, just playing devil's advocate, which I know we just tore apart recently. Um, so obviously you're talking about Joseph Campbell's hero's journey and miss structure then, right?

Michael: (14:55)

Yeah. Yeah. And, and I've read that, you know, it's a seminal work. It's an, uh, it's an important, it's interesting to read, but if that Joseph Campbell and like, you know, I'm not denigrating it at all, but if it was, if it was helpful in terms of breaking a story, you'd think that would be that chart. That famous chart would be on every writer's room in Hollywood. We would just be referring to the chart all the time to how to tell a story. And we just don't. And to me, it's like, it's almost like reverse engineering, something where it's like, okay, I'm going to make a robot. That's take apart this robot. And then we'll, and now we know how to make a robot. It's like, no, no. You know how to take apart a robot. It doesn't mean you have to build a robot. You just took one apart. Right. And so that to me was what that hero's journey circle reminds me of.

Michael: (15:40)

Hi guys, Michael Jamin here. I wanted to take a break from talking and talk just a little bit more. I think a lot of you guys are getting bad advice on the internet. I know this because I'm getting tagged. One guy tagged me with this. He said, I heard from a script reader in the industry. And I was like, wait, what? Hold on, stop my head and blew up and blacked out. And when I finally came to, I was like, listen, dude, there are no script readers in the industry by definition. These are people on the outside of the industry. They work part-time. They give their right arm to be in the industry. And instead they're giving you advice on what to do and you're paying for this. I mean, it just made me nuts, man. He's getting more unqualified to give my dog advice.

Michael: (16:17)

And by the way, her script is it's coming along quite nicely. And oh, and I'm not done. Another thing when I work with TV writers for a new one, I'm writing staffs. A lot of these guys flame out after 13 episodes. So they get this big break. They find it to get in and then they flame out because they don't know what is expected of them on the job. And that's sad because you know, it's not going to happen again. So to fight all this, to flush all this bad stuff out of your head, I post daily tips on social media. You can find me on Instagram and Tik TOK and Facebook at Michael Jamin writer. If you don't have time, two minutes a day to devote towards improving your craft guys, it's not going to happen. Let's just be honest. So go find naked. Happy. Alright. Now back to my previous.

Phil: (17:01)

So, because I've been through your course and I've seen how stories are broken in an actual writer's room, there are definitely almost beats. There are things that need to exist to help carry the story along. But the, but that's just more of like what I would call 10 poles that would hold up the structure.

Michael: (17:19)

Yeah. Right. It's the foundation,

Phil: (17:21)

The foundation. And then you do your story fits into that to help kind of guide us along because there's like an internal expectation in ourselves as humans been telling stories for millennia, then that resonates with this. And I think that's where Joseph Campbell stuff kind of coordinates here, but, or correlates here. But in general, this is, these are things that weren't really addressed. Like, you know, back behind me, I've got like a wall of filmmaking and screenwriting books. I have Joseph Campbell's here with a thousand phases. I have Chris Vogler's the writer's journey writer's journey I got because it was a required text for our class. And yet we never read it in class. We never opened it. We never talked about that. I was in film school that was in film school in my specifically my TV writing class. So ultimately I think what it boils down to is this process that I w I learned, isn't actually the way you do things, and it's not helpful because we're missing, as you said, the foundational things. We're so focused on the, on the other stuff.

Michael: (18:21)

And it's interesting to study all that little stuff is, but it's just not how we do it on the, on a daily basis. So, you know, I, I, I don't know why it's they teach? You know, I get a little frustrated when I get on my soapbox, when we talk about film school. And I always say like, make sure you are, you're clear on who you're studying from, because you can study from a screenwriting from a professional teacher, but if they haven't done it for years and years and years, like they're just teaching you what they were learning, what they learned, what they were taught. You know, you're not like I didn't go to film school and I didn't study any of this. Most of what I learned, I learned on the job from other writers, professional writers before me. And so I just do it the way they taught me. And that's, that's how we do it in the world.

Phil: (19:06)

It's the apprenticeship model, right. Where you go and you learn through osmosis and through putting in the sweat equity.

Michael: (19:14)

Yeah. And that's kind of, that's how I teach in the course. I'm like, well, you know, I don't mess around with like theory. I go, okay, let's take an idea. Here's an idea. How do we stretch this? Is it a good enough idea that we'll fill, let's say 22 minutes of TV show, or if it's a drama obviously longer, is it a good there's enough meat on that bone to turn it into 22 minutes? And if so, how do you unfold? All the events that occurs in this, in the plot so that it feels like an engaging story so that people are engaged in one-on-one what happens next? And I just do that by the way I was taught. So the course, that's how I, I, I run the course. It's like, okay, we're going to, you're going to pretend you're in my writer's room. We're going to take an idea and we're going to turn it into an episode of TV and we're not going to talk theory. We're going to do it.

Phil: (19:55)

Yeah. So when you're reading these things, and when we've talked again on this podcast quite a bit about, you have to be good at your craft, sounds like that's the quintessential thing here is you need to be able to tell a story that follows the proper structure and then entertain me is secondary to that.

Michael: (20:14)

Yeah. And, and, you know, to be clear when, when I first my partner and I first landed on TV shows, like we didn't know how to do any of this. Like we wrote, we were able to write a story, a decent enough story from our gut. And it was good enough, but we didn't know, we certainly couldn't have done it on a consistent basis. Like week after week on it. You know, we couldn't have been like a showrunner or, and so, but as you work on a show and you rise up through the ranks and you start making more money, more is expected of you. And so sooner or later, you need to learn how to do that. This, this story breaking know how to tell a story, uh, because if you can't that you will, you will hit a glass ceiling and then you will eventually be out of work. Got it,

Phil: (20:52)

Got it. Do you have any recommendations on how to approach, you know, but you know, picking a show to follow or to spec or to follow in match the tone, or

Michael: (21:05)

I do, like, I remember years ago working with a hiring a young writer and a laced kind of, we weren't in the rehiring. He was kind of, we were told he's going to be on our show. And so, okay, great. The studio said that we're like, okay, got it. And I remember asking him, are you a drama or a, would you consider yourself a drama or a comedy writer? He goes, oh, I, I do both. And I remember in my mind thinking, okay, you do, neither because you know, if your comedy got you, you say your con, you just know your comedy. I think comedy writers can do drama, but drama writers, they can't do comedy. It's not like you can say, I can write funny, but it's like, you know, you can, and you can, it's not like something you, I don't know if I'm explaining it. Well, it's like, you have to have a good sense of humor to write comedy. You can't, it's not like any drama writer can write comedy, comedy, radio, current drama, because you're just leaving out the funny parts. You're just not making it funny. You're telling the story. It's just not a funny story, but it's all story.

Phil: (21:59)

Um, but it's not, uh, it doesn't, that's I think an important note. It's not, how can I be as funny as possible? It's the thing that makes those shows so amazing. Are they keep you laughing? And then in one moment you're crying, right? Like they, they hit you in the gut because it's so emotionally real that you relate to it.

Michael: (22:16)

Yeah. And, and that's actually why the, the hours on a sitcom tend to be a lot worse than an hours on a drama. Because in both Kansas cases, you're telling a story, story, a story, but in one you have to make it funny. And the funny part that, that adds an extra layer of difficulty, because not all ideas are funny as we know. So

Phil: (22:35)

Pick your lane, pigeonhole

Michael: (22:36)

Yourself. I think so. I think it's important to pigeon yourself because that's what you're saying. That's how you're marketing yourself. If you say to your, to someone, I can do anything you want, all right. I don't really know what you want, but if you say I'm really great at writing broad wacky comedies, Ooh, that's what I need. That's what I need. Don't make me do the, if I'm going to hire, don't make me do the work of figuring out what you are. You tell me what you are. Tell me you're great at it. And then if it's what I need, I'll hire you.

Phil: (23:02)

Yeah. In the, in the marketing world, we would call this niching down or niching down if you want to be more appropriate, but niching down. And you know, we try to keep it clean. But the other time I've heard in the marketing world is the niches. The, like your, your niche is what separates you from everybody else. Yeah. It is. What makes you the specialized expert?

Michael: (23:23)

I think people are worried about, well, I don't want to limit my opportunities. I, cause I, I don't care what I write, whether it's drama or comedy or broader or grounded, but honestly you are helping yourself get hired by, by getting in that lane and becoming good at that lane. You are, it's going to be easier for you to get hired. Yeah. So

Phil: (23:40)

It was like if one of my e-commerce clients came to me and said, I want to be the next Walmart online. I want to sell everything under the sun. I would say, okay, how many hundreds of millions of dollars do you have? You kind of be like, what versus someone says, Hey, you know, we're a specialty craftsmen and we make the super fine, um, rare wood cutting boards. Can you help me? I'm like, absolutely. I could sell that all day because there's an, there's a niche there, which means less competition, less. It's very people looking for very specific things, more likely to be able to be marketable there. And it's the, again, the old adage from businesses, if everyone's your customer. No, one's your customer. Yeah.

Michael: (24:18)

Right, right. This is another example from our life. So my wife has a, um, drives a mini Cooper and she could get that repaired at any, any mechanic could work on it, but there's a guy I don't know, 20 miles away and who all needs works on mini Coopers. And she wants, insists on driving to him because he's a specialist in mini Coopers. That's all he does. And he knows it inside it. Now, now that doesn't limit this guy, that that mechanic could work on any car, probably. I mean, if you work on BMWs, for sure, it's close enough to mini Cooper. They own mini Cooper. But by saying that's all he does, everyone, all the mini Cooper go owners flood to him. So he has, you know, a larger, the pie is smaller, but he has a larger share of it. So you should be a specialist too. This is what I'm really great at.

Phil: (25:02)

Yeah. I love that. So you pick your lane, you've pigeonholed yourself, you've picked your niche. And now you're finding what kinds of shows you've talked about Ted lasso, and you talked about Barry. It seems like you should be matching the type of, to me, it makes sense. I want to have something that shows the type of tone for the job I'm applying for. So that would, that would dictate to me that it's not just about having one great pilot. It's about having a pilot that matches the tone of a Berry or a Ted lasso or a multicam that's really popular. That kind of thing.

Michael: (25:35)

Yeah. Right. And, and so the rules, by the way, the rules that apply to someone who's new don't or my role is a little different. Like I like I, because I've been doing this so long, I can write a broad show. I can write a grounded show, a single camel account, an animated. I kind of can do it all. Uh, if you're just starting out and I would recommend figuring out what tone you think you're going to be great at and, and, and going down that lane. And then, and then if you like, then you want to branch out a little bit like, okay, I've written a spec for a broadsheet. Let me try writing a spec for a grounded show and you write one of those and make it as good as you can.

Phil: (26:09)

Um, you know, I started earlier by saying, it seems like riding that many pilots seems incredibly daunting because it's so much work. You have to create the world and characters. And this is, uh, you know, again, I apologize bringing it back to the business world, but I think it's a very valid point. You know, my mentor who taught me how to do e-commerce and digital marketing, he was talking specifically about how to sell things on Amazon, because Amazon lets third-party sellers sell things. In fact, most of the time you're buying things, they're probably from a third party seller and they have very strict regulations on who can sell what and what you need to have to sell things on there. And they do that to protect the customer. And whenever we would train and do consulting at businesses about how to list their products on Amazon, he would bring up this point.

Phil: (26:53)

A lot of people look at that and say, oh, well, it's so much work. I don't know if it's worth it. And he said, you should be praising Amazon because they have made such a it's made it so difficult that the riff Raff will stay out. Yeah. It's just gatekeeping. And it basically, what it's saying is if you're worthy enough to pass this threshold, then you're going to, you're going to succeed because we have what you want. And we're just, we're basically weeding out the lazy people and yeah. And it goes back to another thing you said, he said, ultimately, you went in business by doing more than your competitor will. And so when I hear w whenever I hear that seems difficult, or whenever I feel that I might go, oh man, that's daunting. And I don't want to do that. That's kind of my benchmark for that's something I absolutely need to do, because it sets me apart from everybody else.

Michael: (27:40)

Th there's a lot of free work that you have to do to get a job. You have to write all this writing spec scripts, that's free. No, one's paying you to do that. If the idea of doing free work turns you off, then writer's not the profession for you. You know? So, uh, but yeah, you have to do. And like, and like you're pointing out, like when something's hard or requires a lot of work, I was like, oh good. That'll weed out. All the people who are not serious about it, that that just cuts my competition down. Like immensely.

Phil: (28:09)

Yeah. It, I mean, and it, as we discussed already too, and I know other screenwriting podcasts I've talked about, it is almost easier to be in the NFL than it is to be a working writer. And so you have to approach it as a professional, not as a hobbyist, this is what you do, because this is who you are. And it's almost like it needs to become part of who you are, what your identity is.

Michael: (28:30)

Yeah. Yeah. How often do you write? Well, the answer is every day, all the time, all the time. And when I'm not writing, while I'm thinking about writing, I'm taking notes about what I want to work on next. And so like, if you're not sitting, like if you want to compete you or anybody's listening, once they compete with me, you're gonna have to step up your game because this is what I do. So if you're not willing to do what I did well, you're, you're coming after my job. So this is what I do. You want to come after my job? You better be working hard.

Phil: (28:55)

Yeah. Great, great stuff. I, again, thanks, Michael. For all of this good stuff. Do you have anything else that you think is valuable on the spec or by,

Michael: (29:02)

I think that's it. We got more pilot. We got more, um, episodes of our, of our, of our podcast, coming. I'll have something to say next time.

Phil: (29:09)

I'm looking forward to understanding Michael. Thanks everybody else. Make sure, you know, love, leave a review, send it, share this with somebody else who needs to hear this episode. Yeah.

Michael: (29:18)

So the next one by all means, and follow me on Instagram. I've got smart things as hand Instagram at @MichaelJaminWriter.

Phil: (29:23)

Yeah. Again, the members of your course have all said that that's where your gems are. That's where all the gyms have information. So

Michael: (29:30)

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3: (29:33)

[inaudible],

Phil: (29:44)

This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving a review, and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. If you want to support yourself, I encourage you to consider investing in Michael's screenwriting course and MichaelJamin.com/course. I've known Michael for over a decade and in the past seven years, I've begged him to put something together during the global COVID-19 pandemic. Michael had time. And I have to say, I wish I'd had this course 10 years ago. As someone who's personally invested in most online courses, earned a bachelor's degree, and actively studied screenwriting for over a decade, this course has been more valuable to me than most of the effort I've put in because it focuses on something no one else teaches: story. In his course, Michael pulls back the curtain and shows you exactly what the pros do in a writer's room. And that knowledge has made all the difference for me. And I know it will for you too. You can find more information at michaeljammin.com/course. For free daily screenwriting tips. Follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJamminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

Michael Jamin & Phil Hudson discuss the reason they started this podcast, how Michael got his start, and the biggest mistake most new screenwriters make when approaching Hollywood.

Michael's Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Writing for Dough: Adventures of a T.V. Comedy Writer Paperback – May 1, 1989, by Bill Idelson - Non-Affiliate Link - https://www.amazon.com/Writing-Dough-Adventures-Comedy-Writer/dp/1556660367

Michael Jamin on IMDB - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0417157/

Michael: (00:00)

I wasn't critiquing her story. I was saying, okay, if this is the story you want to tell, this is what you need to do. I wasn't telling her whether it was a good story or a bad story. I wasn't like that, that, you know, that's subjective. I said, if this is the one story you want to tell, this is what it needs. And at the end of our, we talked for about an hour. It was like she had witnessed a magic trick. You're listening to screenwriters need to hear this with Michael Jen. So today's episode, we're talking about breaking into the business, how I got into the business and how this whole podcast even started. So I've been a professional TV writer for 26 years and fell here. My podcasting partner, he's been bugging me for years to start an online screenwriting course, to tell everyone how, what I've learned, you know, as an opportunity.

Phil: (00:50)

Well, selfishly, I should add, like, this is something I wanted for myself. And so kind of like tickets to a step back here too. I have probably paid for every screenwriting program on the internet, and I've been doing that for the last decade. And then I went to film school and got a bachelor's degree specifically in screenwriting. And I still feel like I've learned more from private lessons from you, or just off-the-cuff emails you sent to me reviewing something or giving me notes. And so when I say I've been begging for this course, I remember sitting in my car, it was on a business trip to Utah. And back in 2015, maybe you need to, you need to do a course on screenwriting. And I wanted this. I, it,

Michael: (01:30)

I was surprised that you hadn't learned any of this in film school. That's what always shocked me. I was like, well, what are you, what are they teaching you there?

Phil: (01:36)

You know? And, and I think for most people, you know, I consider myself an autodidact, meaning I, I teach myself things. And when I went to film school, it was more of a networking thing through, you know, being a Robert Redford scholar and trying to get somewhere ends in the Sundance independent community. But a lot of the things that they teach in film school match up with things that I learned in these other paid courses and things that I take taken online or in screenwriting books. And so for a while, I was like, oh yeah, this must be what screenwriting is. And then I remember, you know, to kind of give some background on how we know each other. I worked at a digital marketing agency and I was actually the account manager for your wife's online business. And I never met you over the course of several years.

Phil: (02:18)

And there was at one point, your, your wife was like, oh, my husband, Michael is going to be getting on the call while he waits for his next show to start off, he's going to help me out with marketing. And she didn't know that I'd been wanting to be a screenwriter for this whole time and taking these courses. And I remember I said show, and she's like, oh yeah, he's a, he's going to be running mark Marin's new show. And I was like, okay. And I looked her up and I was like, oh, she's an Angry Beavers, which I grew up at real monsters. And she's an actress. I had no idea. And you, you know, it just goes to show, you never know anything about anybody. You can't just judge a book by its cover at all. And then you were, I guess at some point I had generated enough Goodwill with you through her that you were like, oh, I was like, we got our car.

Phil: (03:01)

I was like, I'm trying to break in. And you're like, I'm trying to break out like just a funny comment and say, you sent me some screenwriting books and got me a subscription to the writers Guild magazine, which was very helpful. And then I just remember the first email you sent and you're like, what's the definition of a story? And I gave it to you. And you were like, I think I said, uh, it's about someone who becomes a, someone who goes through trials and ends up better in the end. And you were like, what about king Lear? He goes nuts. Right? And I was like, oh, I know nothing. That was about the point when I was like, I have learned nothing over all of this time learning formatting and how to use the software. So it that's kind of about the time it clicked as well. But these people who are teaching things may not actually be teaching what the industry considers to be crafted. Yes.

Michael: (03:45)

That's it cause like, I, I didn't go to film school. I don't know many writers or any that did go to film school. So w like film school is a mystery to us. I don't know why people go, I don't know what they're teaching. And then I, I suspect that it's being taught by professional teachers and not by actual TV writers or screamers with a lot of experience,

Phil: (04:05)

You know, I had, I had maybe one or two really good screenwriting professors in my bachelor's program. And like, one of them wrote some major hits in the eighties. He's a worker, he was a working pro and he was legitimate. We were on a working campus. So like there were stages and they shot the show, Longmire. So we had the opportunity to have the showrunners of Longmeyer come in and speak to us. Those were probably some of the best things about going to film school. For me, I think a lot of people who want to learn camera work and want to learn how to, what it means to, you know, run a, run a set from a PA or a first director or to direct, I think there were a lot of benefits in that regard, but from a writing perspective, not a lot, man, my TV writing class, we wrote one spec script, the entire S like the entire semester, which seems like a lot, but it's not when you're a writer. Right. Right.

Michael: (04:54)

Well, and that was, that's what led you were like, Hey, put together a course and I just didn't have the time or desire, but then the pandemic hit and I had, you know, Hollywood shot. I was like, this is gonna, we're all gonna be hiding under beds for a year. And I just knew it was going to shut down the industry, like immediately. So, and it did for me, for sure, everyone, like, we just had nothing to do. So I had all this time and I was like, all right, I'll put together this course. And it took a couple of months. Uh, and so that we put together a course. And if anyone's interested, its at MichaelJamin.com/course. But from the people who signed up for it, they kind of became rabid and they just wanted more and more stuff. And then,

Phil: (05:33)

So lots of questions. We were doing webinars. We were breaking down case studies of stories and, you know, my technical background, I kind of step in and facilitate a lot of the technical side of this. So I saw a lot of those questions and, uh, met up with some of the members of the course that have been traveling. And yeah, it's just a lot of the same stuff. There's a lot of things people don't know. And I'm, I'm low man on the totem pole, right? I'm a, writer's PA and a PA in other regards, but I've had the ability to sit in that outside of the writer's room and in the writer's room on a few occasions, and it's just a different world. So you know that the ability to learn things in a course for me to see what you look for as a showrunner and craft what your perspective is on selling a pilot and you know, that probably not going to happen. It could, but it probably not. And so what should you focus on craft and what is craft and how you actually work on your story and what elements belong to us. Right. Those are things I didn't learn in a four year program. I had learned in other online programs. And so there's a lot of value that came from that, but there are also a lot more questions, Ryan. And I think that's kind of led to your social media stuff.

Michael: (06:39)

I started posting on social media and, you know, on Instagram and anyone listening to go follow me there @MichaelJaminWriter. But then, and then it became, okay, well, the next step was, people would just want her to be her more, um, like, uh, so that became, this became the podcast. And all this stuff is like, uh, the course is really the nuts and bolts of had, okay, how do we literally, right? How do we become, how do we break it down as if you were in the writer's room as if you are working for me, this, this is exactly the steps we take every day to turn an idea into an episode of television. And the podcast is more, um, kind of peripheral stuff about, you know, stuff, you know, how I got into the business, how you can get into the business and, uh, little things that are not quite so writing centric, but more,

Phil: (07:22)

There's going to be some of that, but it's really, there are a lot of questions, people asking. And what I've noticed from reading through your social media comments, cause you had some stuff on Tik TOK at like half a million masks known as a 400,300,000 on one, 200,000 on another. And a lot of the questions people ask are these same exact questions. Lots of people are asking these exists in resources. Like this podcast is not the only place where you can get to see a lot of this information. There's script notes, podcasts, a bunch of other really good places where you can have actual working writers teach you great, valuable stuff. But in general, there are a lot of very specific questions aren't that aren't being answered and things that I wish I would have known earlier. Right. Which, which gives us the opportunity to talk about it from those two perspectives, you 26 years in and me a decade plus into my writing attempts and still learning every single day and learning what I don't know now that I'm sitting adjacent to writers and writers.

Michael: (08:17)

Right. Right. So I guess we'll talk about, um, kinda how I got, how I got into the business. Like I said, I didn't go to film school was my childhood dream when I was first question cheers, uh, on, uh, you know, Thursday nights on NBC. I was like, I want to be the guy who writes the lines for norm. Like, I didn't realize like the one writer writes the entire script. I just felt like maybe there was a writer who norms limes and there's a different writer who does Diana. Like I had no idea, no clue. And so, um, that was my goal. And after college I graduated college, like two weeks later, I got my wisdom teeth pulled cause I had, um, I still had insurance. Then I got into my car and I drove from New York all the way to LA didn't really know where I was going to stay. Uh, and then I found a roommate and, and uh, that's kind of how I broke into the business. Um, just kind of like hustling and, and begging and sending out.

Phil: (09:10)

So let me ask you come from an economically wealthy background.

Michael: (09:14)

Yeah. Yeah. And, and you are impoverished, you grew up on the other side of the spectrum. Yeah.

Phil: (09:19)

Yeah. I grew up, um, you know, food stamps, social security welfare. Did the foster home thing as a kid for awhile. Yeah. I was definitely on the other side, but I it's interesting because since I was 18 years old, I've really focused on personal development, what people might've called self-help and there are a lot of excuses that people will come up with about what it takes to break in. And then I think this is one of those, which is you have to be wealthy to break in, but I know plenty of writers who did not come from a wealthy background. Yeah. Yeah.

Michael: (09:51)

I mean, it was like, I didn't have to worry, you know, I just didn't have to worry about certain things. But when I got out here, I got, I got a job. Like I, you know, it wasn't like I was getting checks every day from my parents. We were scooping ice cream. I was working at Humphrey yogurt and uh, yeah, there's a yogurt store. Um, and so I did that. And then, um, yeah, then I finally got Phi was my first PA job. I think I was making $300 a week. And,

Phil: (10:15)

And then I'll make it a little bit more than that in 2020. All right.

Michael: (10:19)

And we won and I mean, it's interesting. So it's like people say, well, you, it, you know, at least back then, and it's true in LA in Los Angeles, when I was making money, I moved up to PA where I was making maybe $400. We can $400 a week allowed me to get a studio apartment where I could live by myself for, you know, cause it wasn't that expensive. My rent was maybe 600 a month and now you can't in LA you can't get anything near that. So you have to get roommates. Right. So yeah,

Phil: (10:46)

I had five roommates at one point in the house. I still live in the same house. I'm married now with a kid. And you know, I had to build a bunch of businesses to establish myself. This was all part of a fricking ten-year plan to make it to LA and be able to do this. And so I get like, there are economical difficulties to hold you back, but there are ways to make it happen. Yeah. So I had an extra income that comes in from businesses that I own that, but I also have PA money that comes in to help me out and I can live in LA on peace at PA salary. I have proven that we had five roommates in a four bedroom, three bath house out in the middle of the valley. And my rent was like six 50. Right.

Michael: (11:23)

Split. So yeah. It's can be done. I mean, I get it. I get, it was easier for me back then. But on some ways it was difficult, more difficult because there was no, this is 1992. There was no internet. And I couldn't even the idea of becoming a television writer was like, well, I didn't know any TV writers. I didn't know anyone who was, I didn't like now you can go on the internet and you'd get all the, there were no, you know, there are no podcasts you, I had, all I knew was if I wanted to work in Hollywood, I better be in Hollywood and then I'll figure it out. But now it's like, you can live across the, and get all this content like this podcast for free and you can learn so much without ever leaving your bedroom, you know? Yeah.

Phil: (12:00)

Yeah. And one of the things you talk about in your course not to bring it up again, but I think is really valuable is you have to live in LA because that's where the writing happens, but you don't have to live in LA to practice your craft that's right. Right. And in some of the first advice you gave me is you need to be in LA because when they need someone, they need them today. And if you're not here today, they'll just call the next guy in line or the next girl in line. And there's 10,000 of those people. Right. Right. Right. But being here helps. And you know, the show I work on now that you work on as well, that's happened because I was available that day. Right.

Michael: (12:33)

And to get to your point about your craft, like, it doesn't really matter. Like if you, if you're not ready, if your, if your writing isn't at that level, it doesn't matter if you, if you have a, if Steven Spielberg owes you a favor, you know what I'm saying? Like, if you can get your script in Spielberg's hand, if the script is no good, it's not going to do what there is. Does it make, so it's not really about who, you know, it's about, are you writing at the right level before who, you know, and, and most people skip that, but everyone's like, why they say like, how do I get my script in the right hands?

Phil: (13:03)

Oh, I have a personal story for this. Oh, we, I don't think we've ever talked about, but I had a roommate. His dad was a college roommates with a pretty prominent, I mean, like very prominent, uh, show runner here in LA. I'm trying to anonymize this a little bit. Right. But when you think showrunners, you think of this guy and it was his brother. And so he got to sit in the writers room over a summer as an intern and literally sit in the writer's room every day with this person. And then he said, when you have a script ready for you to see send it. So he sent it to the show runner and he blew his shot because was the, a script he set wasn't. First of all, the script is that wasn't even related to the tone of what the showrunner writes. And number two, it was not ready. He didn't have enough peer review. You could even say, let alone have the craft skills. Right. And people that he lives in Colorado. Now he moved home

Michael: (13:54)

Blue shot. Right. And that's a shame cause everyone thinks their script is ready. I guarantee you. And I thought when I was young, I thought my script was right.

Speaker 3: (14:04)

Hi guys, Michael Jamin here wanted to take a break from talking and talk just a little bit more. I think a lot of you guys are getting bad advice on the internet. I know this because I'm getting tagged. One guy tagged me with this. He said, I heard from a script reader in the industry. And I was like, wait, what? Hold on, stop. My head blew up. I blacked out. And when I finally came to, I was like, listen, dude, there are no script readers in the industry by definition. These are people on the outside of the industry. They work part-time. They give their right arm to be in the industry. And instead they're giving you advice on what to do and you're paying for this. I mean, it just made me nuts, man. These people are unqualified to give my dog advice. And by the way, her script is it's coming along quite nicely.

Speaker 3: (14:43)

And Owen, I'm not done. Another thing. When I work with TV writers for a new one, I'm writing stamps. A lot of these guys flame out after 13. So they get this big break. They find it to get in and then they flame out because they don't know what is expected of them on the job. And that's sad because you know, it's not going to happen again. So to fight all this, to flush all this bad stuff out of your head, I post daily tips on social media. You can find me on Instagram and Tik TOK and Facebook @MichaelJaminWriter. If you don't have time, two minutes a day to devote towards improving your craft guys, it's not going to happen. Let's just be honest. So go find you make it happen. All right. Now, back to my previous.

Michael: (15:25)

And so the people ask the question like, well, how do I get my script into the right hands? And I made a post about this few weeks ago and it kind of blew up and it was like, wow, that makes sense. My point is, you shouldn't ask your, you shouldn't ask, how do we get my script into the right hands? You should ask, how do I write a script so good that it doesn't matter whose hands it falls into. And that's honestly the truth because it's like you write a script and it's great. And then someone, you know, you give it to a friend of a friend or a friend who knows someone who's in the business. They'll read it. And they go, oh, this is really good. I'm going to pass it up the ladder because I knew because I, you know, if I I'm doing that person a favor, I'm giving them something.

Michael: (16:00)

That's amazing. They're going to thank me for this gem that I gave them. And then it's going to finally align someone's hand. Maybe that person is a producer. And that person is going to read and say, listen, I can't do anything for this script, but you are an immense talent. And I want to work with you. Not because I'm trying to help you, but because I'm going to make money off of you. I'm going to exploit you. I mean, you're going to be a great me. I'm going to explore you because I need what you have. And, and now it changes the whole power dynamic. Instead of you begging how do I get my script to the right end, begging people to read it. Now, people are begging you to work with you because you have something of value, but everyone skips that step. Everyone's like, but I already got, I know how to write.

Michael: (16:41)

I know how to hold the pen. Therefore I know how to write, or I know how to watch a movie. Therefore I know how to, uh, re you know, re uh, write a movie, which is, of course, it's just not like, it's a skill. It's like, I look at screenwriting as a craft and you have to learn your craft. It doesn't, I wasn't born with this. I believe in my first CRISPR, terrible. I had to learn all this. And so what I learned in this course is stuff that I learned from working from writers who were way more downloaded, one more successful than I own like Steve Levitan and Chris Lloyd and, and Greg Daniels, like all this stuff, they just passed down to me because I was on the writing staff. And, and then I eventually became a show writer. And I kind of have, I approached story a little bit differently than they do.

Michael: (17:17)

That's not, that's not to say better or worse. It's just, I approach it a little differently. And would you call that voice? Is that what, when people say the term voice, your voice is different. Every writer has a different voice, but it also, in terms of how they approach story, um, everyone kind of, I find different writers. Some writers are a little more intuitive and I don't like they just know in their gut, like, they're just born with that gift. And I wasn't born with that gift. So I have to, I have a process that I use and that I teach. It's like, it's the process that I use because I, I'm not a natural born storyteller. Some people are. And, but, but of like, um, like those people are very rare. I think.

Phil: (17:53)

So w what I'm hearing you say, as someone who, you know, has been told, I had writing talent, but felt very unfocused is that I can learn to focus the tone I have through that process. Yeah. Right. That's a learnable. It's not, uh, you know, a God given gift that you just have. You're not some innate thing that evolution gave you. You can learn something, you can learn how to do this. Yeah.

Michael: (18:16)

And it's funny. Cause I had, uh, uh, a friend of the family was here a week or two ago and, uh, she's working on, uh, on a play. And so she stuck, she's been working on this for months and she stuck and she wanted to bounce it off of me. And I go, okay, just tell me the story. And I kept on interrupting her. No, no, no, no. That doesn't mean that doesn't. And at the end, cause she was, she was blocked and the end, I go, okay, well here's your story. This is what you need here. Bottom back one. This is what you need. Here's what I, here's what I would do. And it wasn't like, I wasn't telling her, I wasn't critiquing her story. I was saying, okay, if this is the story you want to tell, this is what you need to do.

Michael: (18:56)

I wasn't telling her whether it was a good story or a bad story. I wasn't like that. That's, you know, that's a subjective. I said, if this is the one story you want to tell, this is what it needs. And at the end of our, we talked for about an hour. I, it was like, she had witnessed a magic trick when I, and it was very easy for me. It was like, oh, cause I do this every day. But she was like, wow, that helps that. Thank you so much. Now I know how to proceed. And I hadn't critiqued it. I didn't say whether it was good or bad. I just said, these are, this is what you need to do to tell this one story, you know?

Phil: (19:24)

Yeah. Yeah. I've experienced that with you as well. Um, I think you came over to my house to help me out, to break a feature on a whiteboard that I had in this office at one point. And it was like the same thing. It was just like literally watching like a master work. You know, I consider a craft to be like, I'm a carpenter. I can see like, look at me. Like I have a saw and I have a hammer and I have nails. Can I make a cabinet in theory? Yes. But is that a cabinet? Someone's going to want to pay $10,000 to do an accustom remodel in a home. Absolutely not. And so my skill set as a writer 10 years ago, versus my skillset now, compared to your skillset as a showrunner is 26 years experience vastly different scale. And I think pace changes and follows that skill set as well. Yeah. Right. So what I'm hearing you say is there's a craft, there's a skillset. You can learn these things. It doesn't change your unique perspective, your voice, your tone, um, the way you see the world, your life experience and all those beautiful things that you bring to the table that no one else can. Right. But it gives you a structure in which frees you up to, to express those things in your unique way. Yeah.

Michael: (20:38)

Yeah. And it's almost like, it's almost like connect the dots. It's like, okay, for the story, you need eight point a B, C, D E, or whatever. And I'm not going to, I'm not going to budge. We need that point a, we need point B how you want to get from a, to base your decision. But I am not gonna let you, you know, we need to have a and B. Right. And so there's plenty of room for creativity. Like, I'm not saying you, you know, you, you decide how you want to get from a, to B, you could take a plane, you could take a belt, you could take the car, whatever, but we need a and B. So, um, it was interesting that, cause she was so impressed. And I was like, I don't know why it wasn't that impressive. Um, from where I stand, I was like, oh, this is, this is like a day's worth of work. It's not really like, you know, this is what I do for a living. It's not because I hit it on the head with lightning or anything. It's just boom.

Phil: (21:22)

But it's impressive when you watch somebody who understands the skillset. So like, uh, I was a missionary on the border for two years and I remember this one time we were out with this member of our church and we were talking to some people and their car was broken down and this guy was literally a master mechanic. That was his title. And he walked over and he's like, ah, what's going on? And they're like this, he's like, try to try to turn it over. And they did. And he did pop the hood and he grabs a cable from one side and another cable twist them together. He goes, try it. And it just fired right up. Right. Because he understood from the sound, it made how to make that work. Right. But it just looks like magic the source.

Michael: (21:59)

Yeah. Right. And it's just a craft. So I always encourage them. Most people don't want to learn their craft. They want, they just want the big bag of money with a dollar sign on it or they want,

Phil: (22:07)

Yeah. So, so when you moved to LA, um, you sold your first pilot right away, right? Like the first thing you wrote something.

Michael: (22:13)

Yeah. Right. It was so super easy. I just walked up. I said, Hey, Hollywood, I'm here. And they just, they back up the Brinks truck. It was so easy. Um, that's the fictional version. The real version is, you know, I had to, uh, I, I, first of all, I sent out resumes to try and get a job as a PA. I just wanted to be on a stage somewhere on a soundstage. I want to be honest. I want to be a sitcom writer. I want to be somewhere at Jason's sitcoms. And um, I sent out tons of resumes, no one wanted to hire me. And finally, after, uh, and I was that's when I was working at the yogurt store, finally, my roommate said, you know, listen, you're, you're just sitting here. Y you know, you can do work at the overstory at night, during the day.

Michael: (22:50)

Why don't you just tell them you'll work for free. So fine. I, I called up, uh, at the time it was a show called evening shade with, uh, with Burt Reynolds. And I, I, I had already sent out resumes to the people there and I called him up again and he said, listen, what if I come in? And I worked for free, the producer was like, sure. Okay. We can work you for free. And I, so I went in and I was wearing a suit and tie, right? Like, you know, like no one ever Susan side, but for some reason I had to press him with a suit and tie. He goes, okay, you can start tomorrow. And I'll pay $300 a week. Cause they had, it was a hit show. They had a little discretionary money. And I was like, wow, $300. I was like, this is a blessing because I would've done it for free. Right. And so that, that was how I got in. And then six months later, all these other resumes that I had sent out earlier, they started coming and then people started responding to me because, you know, there were just no job openings then, but they eventually, if you send it out enough, they will come.

Phil: (23:42)

Well, that's an important point too, is this, this industry is very seasonal. Like there, there are seasons when they're shooting pilots and their seasons, when you're in the writer's room. Typically I think Cove, it's kind of changed a lot of that.

Michael: (23:52)

It's also cable, a cable and streaming has changed a lot. So, but at the time, right. It's like

Phil: (23:57)

We're in development season and now we're shooting pilots,

Michael: (24:00)

Shooting our show. That's what it was then. Yeah. Yeah. Like I arrived in PA in Hollywood, in June and I arrived literally like three weeks too late, you know? So yeah. Um, but yeah, so, but, and that was just hustle. And then of course then from there, it wasn't like I became a writer wetter right away. I managed to find, I wanted to learn how to be a screenwriter. And I was lucky enough to find an old crotchety, retired TV writer who taught lessons like Emma's standing room table. And I was like, that's why I want to learn from it. I didn't want to learn from a professional writer, a professional teacher. I didn't want to take the standard classes that everyone else has taken. I wanted to find from someone who had the job that I had, that I wanted. And so this guy he wrote on like so many amazing, he wrote on the, the original you run and get smart, uh, the original Twilight zone, the original Twilight zone.

Michael: (24:47)

Right. Um, all these were the Andy Griffith show. And so now he's retired. He cause he, you know, he just taught in his living in his, in his dining room. And um, I learned so much from that guy. And then from there, yeah, that was writing for DOE. That was his book. But Phil, I Olsen, that's a great book. Um, and then from there I, uh, I managed to, you know, write enough good spec script and I managed to get an agent. And then my agent teamed me up, uh, with another writer who, um, and I wrote a story about this actually. Uh, and he was, I, I was like the new hot baby writer. She actually hires, she she's assigned. She brings on you, don't hire an agent signs, a new baby writer every year. And she blew a lot of smoke up my.

Michael: (25:29)

You're the baby. I'm going to turn you into a show runner. You're going to be star in three years. You're gonna have your own show. And I'm like, oh my God, this is amazing. And then I kind of sobered up and I was like, oh, I wonder what happened to the baby writer from the year earlier. And I called her up, I was just curious. And then she gave me his name and uh, I called him up and I was like, Hey, so, um, I have your, we have the same agent. What ha what show are you running? You must be running a show now. And he was like, dude, I work at a record store. And, um, you know, so it had, it didn't happen for him. And then I, then my heart sank, I was like, oh my God, it's not going to happen for me either. And I, I read some of his work and he was actually a better writer than I, I was able to look at his work and the next to mine, I go, oh my God, this guy's better than me, but I was hotter than him. In other words, I, I, I was the, the flavor of the day, according to this agent. And so we teamed up rather than compete against each other. We teamed up and we started writing together and that was, you know, years ago. And we're still writing together today. So, yes.

Phil: (26:27)

Awesome. So it's not like, uh, I, what I've learned from all the writers, I know professional writers and all the, the majority of the writers that I've listened to on podcasts, there are overnight. Success is not an

Michael: (26:41)

Overnight success. Doesn't happen. Yeah.

Phil: (26:43)

No. So it's not something that one should expect. It's not typical. And that's why working on focusing on your craft is so important. Like you said, you have to be able to write something so good that the other person has an opportunity to exploit for lack of a better term. Like they see value. They're going to get value out of it, either clout with their boss or money. Right. Cause ultimately if a producer brings this stuff in and they're going to be signed on and they're going to generate revenue off of this, in addition to revenue, they make off of view. Right. But

Michael: (27:15)

Also some people think, well, I have this amazing screenplay. How do I sell my screenplay? And I always it's, you're not, it's a calling card for you to get more work. Like no one, no one wants to make your screenplay. They want to make their screenplay. The producer wants to make their project. The studio wants to make their project, but they need a writer who knows how to do that. So if you have a great screenplay, that's a calling card and they say, okay, we're not going to do this, but let's work with you on something else. Are you going to say yes or no? So like, some people are like, well, I, you know, I just want to sell I'm I'm really a plumber. I'm a dentist. I just want to sell the screenplay. Like as if it works, like it doesn't work like that, dude.

Michael: (27:50)

They don't, no one wants to help that person. They want someone who is serious about the craft. Someone who's dedicated, you know, their career to this. That's the person they want to work with. They're not, they're not looking at the plumber. What you think there's a shortage of ideas in Hollywood. There's no shortage of scripts here. We don't need to go to New Jersey from some plumber to buy their script. Right. But if you want to become a screenwriter, you need to learn the craft. It's a calling card and then you'll, you'll get more work. So it's one thing, you know, it's one thing to, to sell, um, or to sell your script or even to get on writing step. But it's another thing to turn it into a career it's much, much harder to make a career out of it, which is something which I've been, I've done fortunately for 26 years. So, uh, I'm, I'm certainly not a famous screenwriter. There's are there aren't many, to be honest, there aren't many household names for TV writers. I mean, that's just not, no one knows who we are, but I'm, I'm the guy, um, you know, I've been kicking around. I mean, I've made a career out of it and I'm fortunate enough to be doing it for 26 years.

Phil: (28:48)

Oh, that's awesome. And you know, for me, I think there's a dearth of experience there, right? There's just so much experience that we can learn from. I've definitely learned a ton from you. Yeah. I think the people who've taken your course, I've learned a ton from you. So hopefully this podcast is a way to bridge that and help share some of that information with other people and share that. So that kind of backs me to a pretty important question, which I think I've always asked, which is what are the skillsets that I need to know in order to make it as a writer. And that might be a broad question, but I'd love to hear your answer. Well,

Michael: (29:20)

At first and foremost, it's, it's like I said, it's one thing you can get, like, you may get lucky and get on staff, but if you do not know how to write you a flame out and you will not write it, you will not get hired again. Like, so, okay, you got it. And you see this having a lie, like you'll see someone teaching at a film school and they had one run one credit, or you know, that that's kind of their calling card is out there shot.

Phil: (29:43)

Well, not to put it out, like put out like a, an ominous tone. And that was something you told me when I asked you, I said, Hey, you know, I want to move to LA because you gave me that advice. You have to be in LA, but at the same time I've been offered this scholarship opportunity to go to film school. And you said, well, you know, here's where the writing happens and film school, you'll probably get a network out of it that might help you. But the other benefit is you'll, you'll probably be able to teach a university someday if it doesn't work. Yeah. It's like, oh, oh, because you have to have a master's degree to teach at a university. That's right. That's the benefit is there's some job security that you can then go teach that same stuff you learned in school to other kids who are in school.

Michael: (30:23)

Right, right. That interests you. Right. But it's, um, you know, a lot of people that means you. My next point is people say like, um, you know, can I break into Hollywood without going to Hollywood? So you're basically saying how they would come to me. I'm unwilling to go to Hollywood. You have to come to me. So if you want Hollywood to get off its and come to you, you better really be offering something pretty special. And it can't be a mediocre script. And you were like, well, but how would we fill with mediocre scripts? Okay. Whatever we can argue for that, maybe it is, but they don't need your mediocre script. They're not going to come to you. So if you want Hollywood to come to you, you better well know what you're doing. And that means knowing your craft and, and other things if we're talking about another podcast, but, um, there's really no substitute to being an excellent writer and it's not good enough. It's not good enough.

Speaker 4: (31:13)

[inaudible]

Phil: (31:25)

This has been an episode of screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael Jackson and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving a review, and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject feel can to support yourself. I encourage you to consider investing in Michael's screenwriting course and MichaelJamin.com/course I've known Michael for over a decade. And in the past seven years, I've begged him to put something together during the global COVID-19 pandemic. Michael had time. And I have to say, I wish I'd had this course 10 years ago. If someone who's personally invested in most online courses earned a bachelor's degree and actively studied screenwriting for over a decade, this course has been more valuable to me than most of the effort I put in because it focuses on something. No one else teaches stories. In his course, Michael pulls back the curtain and shows you exactly what the pros do in a writer's room. And that knowledge has made all the difference for me. And I know it will for you too. You can find more information at MichaelJamin.com/course for free daily screenwriting tips. Follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and Tik TOK @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas crane until next time, keep writing.

Michael Jamin has been a professional television writer/showrunner since 1996. This podcast is meant to help aspiring writers learn the craft of storytelling from a working screenwriter.

On this week's episode, I have actor Chris Gorham, (Out of Practice, The Lincoln Lawyer, NCIS: Los Angeles and many many more) and we dive into the origins of his career. We also discuss the work-life balance he has with his family and some of the things he wishes more actors were aware of while filming. There is so much more, so tune in.

Chris Gorham on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chrisgorham/

Chris Gorham IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0330913/

Chris Gorham on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Gorham

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Chris Gorham:

But in getting to know them and talking to them, Almost all of them had day jobs, like worked for the city, Worked, worked for construction crews. They had full-on-day Jobs. Some of them were Entrepreneurs, some of them worked in government. And that was a New idea to me because that hadn't been my experience here. But as the income and equality has increased so dramatically, It feels like that's where our business has been going, where everybody has to have another,

Michael Jamin:

You are listening to, what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity. I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts.

Chris Gorham:

Like my backdrop, this is my, oh, I love it. Official SAG after LA delegate backdrop that we used him during the convention.

Michael Jamin:

I know you're a big show. We're starting already. I'm here with Chris Gorham, and he is an actor I worked with many years ago on a show called Out of Practice. He's one of the stars that was a show with starting Henry Winkler, stocker Channing, Ty Burrell, Chris Gorham, and Paul Marshall. It was a great show on CBS and only lasted a season. But Chris, Chris is about as successful working actors as you can, short of being like someone like Brad Pitt, who's known across the world. You've done a ton of TV shows, and I'm going to blow through them real fast here.

Chris Gorham:

Okay. You can, I can't talk about them still, but your strike is over so you can,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, right, because Chris is, I guess he's in sag and actually you're one of the members, you're one of the, what do you call yourself, the king? So

Chris Gorham:

I'm the king of SAG aftra. No, I was elected to be on the LA local board and also elected as a delegate. So that's what this background was. Our official LA delegate background for

Michael Jamin:

The research delegate for for the model. What does that mean

Chris Gorham:

For the convention? Yeah. It's kind of reminiscent of Model un. So it's the convention that happens every two years where all the delegates get together and we elect the executive vice president, and there's certain offices that get elected by the delegate membership.

Michael Jamin:

I don't think we have that in the Writer's Guild. I think we have a direct democracy. You, I guess have a representative democracy.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. Yeah. It's a much bigger union. How big

Michael Jamin:

Is it? How big do you know? About

Chris Gorham:

160,000 members.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. Okay. Members, but that's active members. And what do you have to be to be an active member?

Chris Gorham:

What do you have to be? Do

Michael Jamin:

You have to sell? You have to work a certain amount or something?

Chris Gorham:

No, once you're in, you can stay in as long as you pay your dues

Michael Jamin:

Every year. Oh, okay. But then that doesn't mean you get health. You have to qualify for health insurance and stuff like that. Correct.

Chris Gorham:

Well, it's a big part of the strike. It's one of our big talking points really is only about 13% and just under 13% earn enough to qualify for our healthcare plan. And I mean, that's only about $26,700 a year to qualify for healthcare.

Michael Jamin:

That's a big deal. I mean, healthcare, healthcare. So most people don't realize this, and it seems so naive to say this, but I get so many comments when on social media, all these actors are millionaires. Dude, what are you talking about? You can be a working actor and book two gig. You're lucky if you do two gigs a year. And

Chris Gorham:

Well listen, it goes to the heart of what this strike is about is that it's worse than people even think because just to what's the best way to talk about it? So a big part of our asked during this negotiation is a big increase in the contributions to our health and pension plan by the producers. And the reason is that they haven't increased it in a long, long, long, long time. So for instance, one person could work, let's say you got hired to do an episode and got paid very well, right? For one episode. Let's say you're getting it, it's an anthology show. They're paying the top two people like series regulars, and you're getting a hundred grand for one episode. So you would think a hundred thousand dollars. That is a lot of money for one episode. If I'm doing that, I am clear. Definitely qualify. You do not qualify for healthcare because you've only done one episode and the producers only have to contribute up to a certain amount. So even though you've made a hundred grand in one episode, you still have to book another job, at least one more

Michael Jamin:

And clear,

Chris Gorham:

Not going to qualify for healthcare.

Michael Jamin:

I've produced a lot of shows. I don't recall ever paying a guest star anywhere close to a hundred thousand an episode. No, not even close.

Chris Gorham:

No, no. And the minimums have, right now, I think for a drama, the minimum's around $9,000, maybe a little more than that for an episode for top of Show guest start like the top paid guest shows on those shows. Yeah, you can't. And it's become almost impossible to negotiate a rate higher than the minimums.

Michael Jamin:

You can have a quote and they go, well, that's too bad. This is what we're paying you.

Chris Gorham:

Correct. This is what we're paying you.

Michael Jamin:

Let me just run through some of yours so people know who we're talking about because some people are listening to it. So Chris is, I'm going to blow some of his bigger parts, but he works so much. So let's start with Party of Five where you did four episodes, which I love that show. I just had to mention that, but of course, popular. You did a ton of those. Felicity, remember that? Odyssey five, Jake 2.0, which you started in medical investigation out of practice, which I mentioned Harper's Island Ugly Betty, Betty Laa, which I loved, of course, covert Affairs and what else? I'm going through your list here. Full Circle two Broke Girls. You worked with two of the broke girls and insatiable the Lincoln lawyer, and that doesn't include any of your guest chart. So you are incredibly successful actor and you've strung, actually, I want to hit on something. Sure. So this is a little embarrassing on my part. We had a technical, this is our second interview because I had technical errors on my point. I'm not that good with technology, even though I've done well over a hundred episodes of this, and Chris graciously allowed me to do this over. But one of the things that you said, the thing that struck me the most during our last talk, which I found incredibly interesting and humble, I said to you, Chris, how do you choose your roles? And do you remember what you said to me?

Chris Gorham:

Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. I said, I should be so lucky. Yeah. The reality is, it's like actors like me. I've had a lot of conversations with actors like me who star on television shows, multiple television shows, and we all joke about how many times we've been asked in interviews. The question

Michael Jamin:

Really,

Chris Gorham:

Why did you choose this to be your next project?

Michael Jamin:

Right. Well, I wanted to eat. That's why.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah, yeah. Because I think journalists sometimes forget, and they think that we're all to use your example, Brad Pitt, and that we're being sent scripts and we get to choose what our next project is, but in reality, that is not at all. What happens, what happens for the vast majority of us is we are sent auditions. Sometimes we get the scripts, sometimes we don't. And we put ourselves now what used to be going to the casting office. Now we put ourselves on tape and we send it off into the void, and we hope that we get hired.

Michael Jamin:

And you'll work on a part. When you do get the script, how long will you spend preparing for that before you submit your tape?

Chris Gorham:

Oh, it depends mostly on two things. One, how many pages it is, and then it depends on how well written it's, to be honest. You've heard this before.

Michael Jamin:

Go ahead. Tell me.

Chris Gorham:

The better the writing, the easier it is to memorize.

Michael Jamin:

Right. And explain why that is.

Chris Gorham:

Well, the reason is is because it makes sense. If it's written like a human being talks, then the next sentence follows from the sentence before. If you understand the emotion of what's going on, then it just makes sense and the dialogue flows and it's just so much easier to memorize. The stuff that's always the hardest is when you're the character that's laying pipe and you're just spewing out exposition and it's not really coming. Listen, the good writers are always trying to tie it down to that emotional reality, but sometimes you got to lay pipe, and that's stuff's always the hardest, particularly if it's a bunch of medical jargon or legal jargon. That kind of stuff is crazy.

Michael Jamin:

And what people don't also realize, I think, is when you're starting out an actor, oh, I could play everything. I could play a villain. I could play a teacher, I could play a biker, I could play a doctor. That's fine when you're in your high school play, but in Hollywood, you're going to be cast the part that you are closest to because if not, we will cast someone who looks like a biker or who was a biker, and we'll cast someone who looks like a doctor. Right? Yeah. So you have to figure out who you are, basically.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. Well, it's one of the, I went to theater school at UCLA and I was very lucky because during my freshman year, they decided to start a conservatory program within the theater program there. So we all auditioned and I got into this conservatory program. So for my last three years, it was conservatory training, and I still got my bachelor of arts degree from UCLA. It was the best of both worlds. One of the things that I felt like a few years out after having it is I wished they had spent a little bit more time helping us learn how to act like ourselves. You spend so much time in theater school, learning how to stretch your creativity, working on your voice, working on your body movement, body awareness, vocal awareness, and then learning how to play all these different kinds of parts and all the plays you're doing. All the parts are filled from college students. So sometimes you're playing an old man, sometimes you're playing a young woman who knows. But the second you start auditioning for roles professionally, you're only going to be seen for roles that you physically look like. And so it's really important to quickly learn if you haven't already, how to be you. Right. How do you do that version of you?

Michael Jamin:

Where do you begin with that?

Chris Gorham:

Well, it takes practice. We used to do an exercise. It was in one of the very beginning acting classes. In fact, I didn't even take this acting class. I was observing, I think my senior year, one of the grad students was teaching it. And it was just as simple as everybody got in circle and instead of being crazy and dancing like a tree or whatever, it was literally, it was just walk across. Just walk from point A to point B. Just you just don't do anything. Just walk from what, and you would be surprised how difficult that can be because

Michael Jamin:

You become self-conscious of what you're

Chris Gorham:

Exactly right. You become and you feel like you should do something mean. And especially for a bunch of theater kids who've kind of grown up in their theater school, all high schools and stuff all over, it's all about being big, and it's all about the jokes and getting attention and to let all of that go and just be in the market is a very difficult thing for a lot of people. But it's super, super important. And that carries through forever. Just being just be there. You don't have to do anything, particularly when you have a camera on you, and particularly when it's time for your closeup, you don't have to do a lot. You just have to be there and be present and alive in the scene.

Michael Jamin:

But so much, I think some people, they greatly underestimate how difficult acting is because it looks like make-believe and whatever. We're just, you're having fun on the camera, but to be in the moment, especially when the cameras are on you and everyone's watching in, go hurry up and go, because we've set up the scene for half hour and we want you to shoot it now. And it's so hard to stay in the moment, I think. So how do you stay in the moment when you become conscious that you're acting

Chris Gorham:

Now? If I become conscious that I'm acting now, I'll just stop.

Michael Jamin:

You will

Chris Gorham:

Often I'll just stop and say, can we start over? Can we just go back to the top because for whatever reason, and then go again. Because if I'm conscious, then I'm not in a scene, then it's not going to work and they're not going to be able to use it. So I would just stop and go back. I mean, it's the great advantage of film, right?

Michael Jamin:

But you do much theater anymore, because that's different when you're on stage.

Chris Gorham:

I only feel like benefits and things for years. We're rehearsing for one this weekend, we're doing the Girls Benefit to raise money for breast cancer research.

Michael Jamin:

So it's one show.

Chris Gorham:

It's one show. I mean, for me, I've been a single income family of five for almost 23 years. So with that, I haven't able to afford to go and do theater, but I miss it. I love it. I did two weeks, 14 years ago, I did two weeks in Spalding Gray Stories left to Tell in New York off Broadway.

Michael Jamin:

Really? So you were Spalding Gray, I mean, it's a one man show,

Chris Gorham:

Right? Yeah, yeah. Well, it's a one man show split into five different personalities. So it's different parts of him. And so the business part, they would swap out celebrities every two weeks. And so I came in and did that for two weeks, and it was the best.

Michael Jamin:

And this was in New York?

Chris Gorham:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

That's amazing. How did something like that come up? How do you get that?

Chris Gorham:

I don't know. I don't remember. I don't mean it must've come through my agents or my manager. I don't remember. I don't remember.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. How interesting.

Chris Gorham:

Because now, I was just going to say now, it's been so long since I've done, I've become, I'm so out of the loop of LA theater in particular, which is kind of more feasible for me at this point, just because it's close and easy. I don't even really know how to get back in. In fact, one of my youngest was doing a summer theater camp at Annoys Within, and it's close to where we are. So I was trying to figure out, I reached out to my manager, I was like, Hey, is really close. Is there, are they doing anything that would make sense for me to do something with them over there? They were like, yeah, that's a great idea. And they never heard anything. So I just emailed them my photo and resume with a letter, and I never heard anything back. So I literally, I don't even know how to approach getting cast in theater anymore,

Michael Jamin:

Because your agent, there's not enough money for your agent to work on it.

Chris Gorham:

They couldn't be less interested.

Michael Jamin:

I'm always curious how that works. We just saw a show at the Pasadena Playhouse and I was like, well, how do these actors, how do they, yeah, if

Chris Gorham:

You find out, let me know the Playhouse also write down the street. It'd be amazing.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, there's always some, but then again, you would have to commit to something. And during that time period, let's say it was two months, you can't take other work you've committed and something big could come along, who knows? I

Chris Gorham:

Mean, maybe. But also that is, you live with that fear all the time, no matter what

Michael Jamin:

Do you mean even if you're on a show, you mean?

Chris Gorham:

Well, not if you're on a show, then you're working well, then you worry about the show being canceled and then that you're never going to work again. But when you're not working, well, this brings up two thoughts. One is there's a fear of taking something that's not the big thing, because you are afraid that if you do this smaller thing that it's going to conflict with the big thing that might be just around the court. And the other thought that it brings up is I talked with so many actors over the years who are not working and are really struggling and feel paralyzed about going to try and do anything else because there's this intense peer pressure that, well, you can't quit. You can't quit now that your moment, it might be just around the corner, it might be the next audition.

Michael Jamin:

You mean quit Hollywood and do something for a different career, you

Chris Gorham:

Mean? Yeah, go do something else. You got to hang in. You got to hang in. And I feel like it's a really difficult balancing act because the truth is that this business is really, really hard to go back to the strike. It's gotten increasingly difficult to the point where it's almost impossible with an actor to make a living, to be able to raise a family, to be able to put your kids through college and those kind of life things that are important to so many of us.

Michael Jamin:

And I know, and that's why you fight and that's why you fight. And that's why it's so people think, well, so what for actors? But the problem is like you're saying, if actors can't make a living in between or you're starring in a show, that's great, but the show will probably get canceled up to one season. But you still need to keep a healthy talent pool of actors who can continue to keep a living, because if they can't, they're going to leave. And then how are you going to cast as writers and producers? How do you cast this part if there's not a healthy talent pool? That's

Chris Gorham:

It. That's it. We can't continue paying the stars these massive, massive, massive amounts of money and having everybody else working on these tiny minimums because it's unsustainable. The best and the brightest of us that haven't won the lottery are going to go do other things because there's more to life and life. You can be an actor without pursuing it as a career.

Michael Jamin:

But I haven't heard those notions come up at all. Maybe I'm not just tuned in, but the idea of, well, maybe we're paying the stars too much, or has that been a discussion at all?

Chris Gorham:

I mean, I have that discussion. Yeah. Oh, really? Well, yeah, because it's not that, well, certainly for me, and not so much from my personal experience, but just from my kind of bleeding heart observations of this business, when you see movies, it's why, like I've said for a long time, the only way now to make a living in this business is if you're a star or a series regular on a TV show.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yes, I agree with that. It's the

Chris Gorham:

Only way because all of the supporting cast, none of the supporting cast makes enough money to make a consistent living in this business because your stars get massive amounts of money. Everyone else is working scale, and the minimums have not risen nearly enough to make it enough. And the stars, well, this is the excuse the studios use, is that they're paying the stars so much. There's no money left to pay anybody else over scale, so no one else can negotiate over scale. And in tv it's a similar thing. So it just makes it very difficult.

Michael Jamin:

And not only that, LA has always been an expensive city to live, but now it's crazy. It's like crazy. I can't afford, if I hadn't bought my house when I did it, I couldn't even come close to affording this house and have a middle class house. It's something special about it. So these are the issues that actors are fighting over. Yeah, it's an important, it's so interesting when you hear your friends or colleagues thinking about leaving, do they tell you what they're going to do or what they want to do? It's such a hard thing when you're middle aged, what are you going to do?

Chris Gorham:

Right. No, it's true. It's true. No, I have some friends that have gone into teaching.

Michael Jamin:

Okay.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. Most of my actor friends are still around. Have one friend who started the business ages ago and still runs that business while she's worked periodically as an actor throughout all of these years. And she still works frequently, but her main income is from this business that she created. Right.

Michael Jamin:

She's very, so you got to be entrepreneurial, basically. Yeah.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. It's funny. I did a movie early in my career where we shot in Tonga and New Zealand, and we had a lot of New Zealand actors were working on this film and in talk, and some of them were quite famous in New Zealand. They were working on this famous New Zealand TV show, like legitimate celebrities. But in getting to know them and talking to them, almost all of them had day jobs, worked for the city, worked, worked in construction crews. They have full on day jobs. Some of them were entrepreneurs, some of them worked in government. And that was a new idea to me because that hadn't been my experience here. But as the income inequality has increased so dramatically, it feels like that's where our business has been going, where everybody has to have another gig.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Chris Gorham:

It didn't used to be that way. And I don't think that it has to be that way.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I agree with you. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely, yeah, it seems very unfair. It doesn't seem, well, I mean, I guess all things is fair about being an actor. Being an actor has always been a pursuit of like, well, is there anything else you could do? Then choose that? But true, it seems like now it's like, I don't know. What do you do? What recommend then for people, young kids or kids, whatever, 20 year olds who considering getting into the business?

Chris Gorham:

Yeah, I mean, that advice I think is evergreen. That if you can go do something else as a career, absolutely do something else as a career. Oftentimes the advice I give is when you're young, spend a lot less time thinking about what you want to be when you grow up and spend a lot more time thinking about what kind of life you want to live when you grow up, what kind of things do you want to do? And then you can find career paths that will allow you to live the kind of life you want to live. And it becomes less obsessed with having a certain job.

Michael Jamin:

Well, that's something to consider. So for you as a working actor, sometimes you'll be on location, you might be in a different city. Is that something you away from your family, which is hard as you were raised in a family, is that something you considered? Is that something you would reconsider now?

Chris Gorham:

I had no idea. I grew up in Fresno, California. My mom was a school nurse. My dad was an accountant. They didn't know what to do with me, and I didn't know anything about the business. I wanted to be. Yeah, I didn't know. Yeah. I had no idea. And so my first, and I was very fortunate. I got out of school, I started, I got my union card in 1996, the year I got out of school was booking occasional guest stars on things. My first job was one scene in a movie with two big movie stars, big famous director. It was awesome. And then I booked my first series just three years after school. Cool. And it was shot at Disney. It was like 10 minutes away from our little place we were renting. And then it was canceled and it came out of nowhere. And then I was very fortunate again. I booked another series two weeks later, but that one shot until long

Michael Jamin:

And

Chris Gorham:

I had no idea what that meant. And I left to do that pilot six weeks after our first born son, our firstborn was born. So my wife, anal had no idea what no idea we were doing. Suddenly we had a newborn baby, six weeks old, and then I'm gone for five weeks. It was extraordinarily difficult.

Michael Jamin:

I apologize. Something must be open and I have to shut it down because someone's, I'm sorry.

Chris Gorham:

Oh, no worries. Okay.

Michael Jamin:

I thought everything shut. But yeah, so to continue, so that's heartbreaking. You have a brand new baby and you're out of town. You left here.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. It was hard. And we didn't, because we didn't grow up here, so we had no experience. I don't know how to do this. And no one was really kind explaining to us, okay, this is how you get through this. These are the different ways you can do it. These are the options. You know what I mean? I didn't have anybody, I didn't have a mentor or somebody guiding me in how to do this thing.

Michael Jamin:

But at any point in your career, you must, because worked for so many actors, you must have at some point found someone a little older and wiser. Right?

Chris Gorham:

Well, the closest thing we had was Anelle had Stacey Winkler. It was really sweet. Anelle used to sit next to Stacey Winkler at every taping, and they would just talk and Stacey would give her advice, and it was great. One week, Anelle come to the taping, and the next week Stacey scolded her and was like, you have to be here every week and let everyone know that that is your husband.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting. I remember she came to, I think every out of practice,

Chris Gorham:

Everyone.

Michael Jamin:

So why is it about staking your territory? What was that? Or is this being supportive?

Chris Gorham:

What was it? No, I think it was both, but I think partly staking your territory. I was the young guy, the young handsome guy on this show, and it's a CVS show, and so she was like, you need to be here. But then it was also she said, but then he's the star here at work. You have to make sure that when you get home, the kids are the star, not him. You have to make it very

Michael Jamin:

Clear. Was there a difficulty for you? Is it hard to go home and not be the star? What was that like?

Chris Gorham:

I had gotten pretty good at it, certainly by then. But I would imagine looking back in the beginning, it's kind of that power corrupt and absolute power. Corrupt absolutely. Of course can go to your head when you are getting a little famous and you're making some money. And when you're at work, you are catered to, you're one of the stars of the show. You're catered to a handed foot. Everything's taken care of. I've described it as series regulars are treated like fancy

Michael Jamin:

Babies on set.

Chris Gorham:

Don't upset the babies. You need to keep them safe at all times. You need to keep them comfortable at all times. You don't want them crying. You don't want them cranky. You need to keep them fully regulated because when everything's ready to roll, we need the fancy babies to be able to perform. And as soon as they're done, we want them to go back to their cribs slash trailers so that then the grownups can finish getting everything ready for the next shot.

Michael Jamin:

And imagine giving this kind of pressure to a child actor. I mean, have you worked with many child actors?

Chris Gorham:

Yeah, many over the years, and I can say almost all of it. Almost all of it's been a good experience. I haven't had any total nightmares with child doctors. That being said, every parent that's asked us about getting their kid into the business, we have always advised against it. And we didn't encourage any of our kids to get into it.

Michael Jamin:

It's rough. I haven't worked with many child, I just haven't been on shows with a lot of kids. And I am glad because I have a feeling I would when a kid is messing around on set in between takes or just not being professional because they're acting like children the way they are supposed to act. In my mind I would be thinking, stop fucking around. This is work. I know that's what I would be thinking, which is an awful thing to put on a child. But that's what you're paying them a lot of money to do. It's a hard position. I don't know. I just feel for those kids, I just feel like, yeah, I know. That's where Ill be thinking. Hopefully I wouldn't be saying it. Yeah,

Chris Gorham:

It's difficult. It's very, I mean, sets are, they're not for kids. They're an adult work environments, which by the way, some adult working actors need to be reminded occasionally that these are adult working environments. This is not your personal playground. But yeah, it's a difficult environment for kids. So I mean, you need them. So I'm grateful that they're there.

Michael Jamin:

I think that too sometimes. Sometimes I'll see an actor goofing around too much, and we're all, I'm like, dude, let's get out of here. All the crew wants to go home. They've been working 12 hour days for the past week and a half. They want to go home too.

Chris Gorham:

Well, let me tell you, this is one of the things where with every showrunner that I've become friendly with, I highly encourage them, if at all possible, to bring their series regulars behind the curtain and bring them to at least one production meeting that show them how the sausage really gets made, expose them to all of the other incredibly creative, intelligent, wonderful people who make up this team that makes the TV show or the film. Because then they get to see, because as cast, especially as the stars of the show or the film, you really are treated as if you are the most important cog in this machine. And it's really helpful, I think, and just the team morale, if actors understand that they are a very important cog in that machine, but just one of the cogs in the machine. You

Michael Jamin:

Said you learned this, I think when you first were directing, you started directing episodes of the shows, you weren't, right?

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. I had think a basic actor's understanding of how things work on set. And I'm not to blow my own horn. I'm generally a nice person. So I'm kind to people. I'm nice to everybody on set. I learned people's names. I generally understood what people did, but only when I started directing did I really understand just how incredible the whole ensemble is and how much the rest of the team has to offer and is contributing to the show or the film. It was just a level of respect that I don't think I could really have until I was allowed behind the curtain to see how it was happening. So what

Michael Jamin:

Would you recommend? Would you recommend that every week one actor attends a production meeting? Is that what you're saying?

Chris Gorham:

Listen, that's one way to do it. Right. However it works for that showrunner, for that production, I would just encourage them because I just feel like so often, and I think, I don't know if it's true now, but I've talked to showrunners in the past that have talked about the show and the training program and about the message they got was to keep the cast at arm's length. Really? Yeah. And there certainly can be good reasons for doing that. I can understand why that sometimes makes the job easier, certainly, and sometimes maybe makes it possible. But I just think there's more to gain by bringing them in to letting them see, really meet the whole team and get to know the whole team. And because there's just, I mean, truly, you see what the set designers do, and you see what the customers do, and you see, we get to understand how lighting works. You know what I mean? It's just how hard the ads work on putting together with the schedule and learn why the schedule gets put way put together the way it gets put together. And once you understand it, then maybe you're a little less mad about having to be last in on Friday, two weeks in a row.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Chris Gorham:

You see, it's like they're not out to get you. They are trying to accommodate you, and you are not the only factor that is being accommodated.

Michael Jamin:

You're talking about the writers now?

Chris Gorham:

No, I was talking about the cast look, in regards to schedule casting,

Michael Jamin:

Very, very frustrated

Chris Gorham:

About scheduling.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, I see. Yeah, that's always right. I can see why that would be frustrating. So what happens? You get a call sheet and you're told to come in whatever, 8:00 AM and they don't get to shoot your part until 1:00 PM and you're like, why did they call me in so early? And sometimes it just happens. It works out that way

Chris Gorham:

Sometimes. Yeah. They're trying. They're trying. And sometimes it just doesn't work out. And with the scripts, with writers, it's a similar kinds of thing. It's like once you understand how many chefs are in the kitchen of getting these scripts, these stories broken, and then these scripts written how many notes the writer has gotten about their script from the studio and then from the network before it ever gets to the cast.

Michael Jamin:

You're making me anxious just talking about it. No joke.

Chris Gorham:

Sorry. And then that's why as a cast member, when you then go to the writer and say, Hey, can I ask you about this? Your writer looks like they're dying a little inside.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. No, no, I can't do that.

Chris Gorham:

And it's like, so the best writers that I've worked with have always been very organized about how actors give notes. They're like, if we're doing table reads on a show, they'll be like, look, we're going to do the table read. Everybody's got 24 hours to give whatever notes or feedback you've got about the script. And then after that, we're considering it locked. Please respect that once you're on. The idea being that you don't want to spend a lot of time on the day when you're there waiting to shoot, talking about suddenly having questions about the scene and asking it to be rewritten. That's not the term.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, it's not. And because we have to get next week's script and next week's script is a disaster. I'm telling you, it's in terrible shape. That's how it always is.

So you want to worry about this. What about the crashing plane out there? That's going to be, I remember, I have to show, I can't remember if I mentioned this last time we spoke, but one of my favorite experiences of working in Hollywood was when I was an out of practice, and I can't remember what I was doing. I think the showrunner, Chris, I think he had me deliver pages up to the actress. It was show night right before the show, and I don't know why it was made, but for some reason, I remember carrying a couple of scripts to the dressing room maybe an hour before the showtime, and you guys were all there, the whole cast, and you're holding hands. And Henry's like, come on, Michael, come on in, come on. And I'm like, what's going on right here? And you're all just holding hands. And he goes, and he invited me in. I'm like, but I'm a writer. What do you mean? No, grab some hands. So I remember taking who, who's hands? I don't know, but I'm in the middle. I'm with a circle. I'm holding hands. I'm like, what is going on here? And then you guys did, I don't know what you would call it, but it was some kind of, it's

Chris Gorham:

Like a little vocal warmup or something. No,

Michael Jamin:

It was almost like a blessing. It was like a blessing. It was almost like, what's it, we are here to, I am curious if you've done this since then. It was like, we are here to support each other. We're going to have a wonderful show. We're all together. We're a family. And it was almost spiritual. It was very, I guess you haven't done that. You don't remember this.

Chris Gorham:

I remember doing that. I don't remember that specific moment. But that was all Henry.

Michael Jamin:

But it wasn't every week that you guys did

Chris Gorham:

That. Every week we did that.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Okay.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. Every week it was our ritual, but Henry started as the ritual before we went down to start the show. We would have this time just with a cast or occasionally with a writer who'd come in.

Michael Jamin:

I thought it was a beautiful moment. I really did.

Chris Gorham:

It was really great on dramas. You don't do that because you don't have that moment where you're all together about to go start the show. That's already happened to me on sitcoms.

Michael Jamin:

So maybe it's a theater thing then. Do you think

Chris Gorham:

For sure it's a theater thing. Yes. Yes.

Michael Jamin:

Yes. So tell me, this happens on other employees always before every show or before every night. Opening night every night. Yeah.

Chris Gorham:

I mean, of course it depends on the show, right? It depends on who's there and who's, but yeah, thinking back, even when I was a kid in Fresno doing local theater, they would always feed circle up right before Showtime.

Michael Jamin:

Is that what they call, is there a name for this circle up? What is it?

Chris Gorham:

No, no. That's just what I'm

Michael Jamin:

Using. So there's no name

Chris Gorham:

For you get in the huddle. You get in the huddle.

Michael Jamin:

But I really thought, I still remember it. I was touched by it that this is something that you guys did to support each other so that you could hold space and feel safe in front of a crowd and know it was a very team thing. And I was like, wow. I felt almost like I was invading it. I felt like I don't belong here because I'm not on stage with you guys. But that's what I remember. It struck me. Something else that always struck me was how well guest stars were greeted by the regular cast. That's a very, very position. You've been on both sides of that,

Chris Gorham:

Right? Yeah, for sure.

Michael Jamin:

For sure. What's that on both sides for you?

Chris Gorham:

I've worked on shows where I have, where series regulators never spoke to me. We were in a scene together, but outside of the scene never spoke to me.

Michael Jamin:

So action. And this is the first time you're talking to them.

Chris Gorham:

Correct.

Michael Jamin:

I suppose that could be good if your characters were just meeting for the first time, but is there

Chris Gorham:

Sure. I guess. I guess

Michael Jamin:

I guess.

Chris Gorham:

But we could, we're professionals. We could pretend. But that was pretty early in my career. Now I don't really have that experience anymore. But also, I took it with me and I made it a point, having had that happen once or twice early in my career, that once I was the series regular, I've always made it a point to never ever do that,

Michael Jamin:

To always welcome the guest star and just absolutely greet them. It's a hard thing to stay. I mean, think about it's the first day of school for them. Yeah. You're walking into, you don't know anybody. I,

Chris Gorham:

No, it's difficult enough. Like you said, this is a difficult job. And why make it harder on somebody who is coming in on the bottom of the rung of power at this show? Why would you use the very real power that you wield

Michael Jamin:

Show it's It is real.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. Why would you wield that to make someone who's on your team, right? Uncomfortable. Why you?

Michael Jamin:

But we know these actors. I'm the star. I want you. I want to remind you. It's like, dude, we know. We know.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. There are people like that. I feel like that's the exception. It happens. Oh, really? But I feel like it's the exception.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my content, and I know you do because you're listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people like you can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist. And now back to what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about?

One thing we also spoke about, which was very interesting to me, was I don't know what they call now, I guess, what do they call? They call it sex coordinators. What is the role for those people

Chris Gorham:

Who, oh, intimacy

Michael Jamin:

Coordinators. Intimacy coordinators. But you mentioned that they have other functions. It is not just when two people are lying in bed, half naked. It's also for,

Chris Gorham:

So the way that I describe it to people who've never heard of intimacy coordinators is everyone's familiar with stunt coordinators. So stunt coordinators are brought onto a set to keep actors physically safe. Intimacy coordinators are brought onto a set to keep actors emotionally safe.

Michael Jamin:

And this is relatively new thing. Maybe what, five or 10 years or something? Maybe less,

Chris Gorham:

Right? Yes. New. And we are pushing to make them required. But one of the hurdles before we can make them a requirement like a stunt coordinator is required. One of the hurdles is actually getting enough intimacy coordinators qualified, trained and qualified to do this

Michael Jamin:

Job. Are most of them, are they therapists, counselors? What's their training, do you think? No,

Chris Gorham:

I think a lot of them come from the acting court. Really? Really? Yeah. Yeah. Because

Michael Jamin:

You mentioned it's not just that. It's also like if you have two characters yelling at each other in a scene, no sex, they're just yelling at each other that an intimacy record will talk to you afterwards, right?

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. So here's a couple things that we did. I'd worked on a show where we had a scene, it was a sexual assault scene, but there were no clothes, there was no nudity and things stopped before things progressed to the point where we were physically exposed. But that kind of scene, you're very emotionally exposed, right? And this was my first time interviewing with an intimacy coordinator. I didn't really know what to expect. So there was a part of the conversation was, okay, for instance, it's written in the script that the other character is going to reach down and grab your groin. And I talked to the in music coordinator saying, I talked to the director and the director wants to see that. He said, are you comfortable with that? Here's what we have to protect you. We have a piece that's going to go between your pants and your underwear to protect your groin.

And so when she grabs you, that's all she's grabbing. It was like, okay, great. That's super helpful actually. Great. I've never had that before. And it seemed like that. And it's nice. It makes me feel more comfortable. Certainly makes her feel more comfortable. Who wants to do that? Nobody. But then after the physical parts of discussion, then the conversation shifted. And she said, another thing that I've done with a lot of actors who've done scenes this, I would recommend that you put together a self-care routine for the end of the day. I was like, well, what do you mean? Like it could be anything. Whatever is going to be comforting to you. Some people, you might make a put things together. So you can draw a bubble bath when you get home. You might put together a playlist of music that makes you feel good.

It might be pictures of your kids, could be whatever it is that is going to give comfort if you need it at the end of the day, because you never know what scenes like that might trigger. And that's the thing is you write scenes like this and it's necessary for the story, and you works as appropriate for the characters, but you never know what the actors as people, what their life experience has been. And they may have in their real life, been through an experience like that. And so then reenacting it can be very triggering. And it's the thing about acting when you're doing these emotional scenes, be it anger or big crying emotion, your body doesn't know you're pretending.

Michael Jamin:

Exactly.

Chris Gorham:

Exactly. So you mentally, well, this is pretend none of this is real. We're on a set crew numbers and friends, but your body doesn't know the difference. Once you're experiencing those emotions, you are experiencing those emotions and you never know what it's going to bring up. So that kind of care, emotional care, I thought is really great.

Michael Jamin:

And it's like, you'll do this just so people are aware. If you have a scene where you're screaming and yelling or sexually assaulting someone or whatever, and your adrenaline's pumping and whatever, your, not hormones, but cortisol. Cortisol is racing, whatever. All this stuff is going through your head and your body doesn't know, and you're doing the scene a dozen times and it's very hard. I feel it's must be hard to wash that out of your system.

Chris Gorham:

Can be. It can be. I mean, that's the thing. And it's different for everybody. I ended up, I was okay at the end of the day. I was exhausted, but I felt okay. But I was glad that I'd put some thought into, if I'm not feeling okay, here's what I'm going to do, it's going to help me feel better. And just having thought about it, I think just helped.

Michael Jamin:

No, I don't think I've ever worked with an intimacy coordinator because in comedy we don't really do a lot of that. But is it always a sexually charged? Is that what the line is? It's not just drama. There always has to be some kind of sexual element when they're brought in. Is that what it

Chris Gorham:

Is? That's certainly how it started. And I think now it's one of the things, it's still new. We're figuring out when it, certainly on the sexual stuff, I'm trying to think. It was interesting. There was a resolution. I think there was a resolution that's going to be coming up the convention. There's lots of conversation about intimacy coordinators. But there was some conversation that had never crossed my mind. But once I was talking to someone about it, I thought, yeah, you know what that makes a lot of sense is bringing in intimacy coordinators when you're physically with children. Physically with children. So for instance, you are playing a dad and you're working with kids and you're getting in bed and cuddling with the kids at bedtime, or you're putting your daughter on your lap to have, because they had a rough day and you're cuddling and you know what I mean? And you're having physical contact with kids to have an intimacy coordinator there just to make, because again, you don't know what people's experiences been to protect the kids so that there's a conversation and there's somebody there watching. And I thought, you know what? Smart, that's a great idea.

Michael Jamin:

That is a really smart idea. Because we don't know what these kids have been through. We don't know.

Chris Gorham:

And again, most actors, most people in the world are caring, kind, certainly empathetic. That's their whole

Michael Jamin:

Job. That's the job.

Chris Gorham:

But just like any other profession, some people need help. Some people don't always have the best intentions, and some people don't always behave well. And so it's important. So yeah, I thought that was just such a good idea.

Michael Jamin:

I totally agree. We also spoke about how you handle it when you are working with an actor who maybe isn't as professional or prepared as you are in the scene and what you do. I thought it was interesting what you had to say.

Chris Gorham:

Okay, so huge pet peeve. For me. It's like, no, it really bugs me when you're working with someone who hasn't bothered to learn their dialogue. So that's a huge No-no. But then sometimes you are working with an actor who just isn't great, who just for whatever reason isn't great. So my strategy for dealing with that is I just basically start acting to an X. I just don't, whatever they're giving me is just bad. What I know is that the editor is going to cut around the bad performance and they're going to use me. So it's even more important for me to stay completely engaged in the scene. And it's an extra level of acting challenge because then you're acting. It's like, I don't know. It's working on one of the superhero movies or something where you just start treating them like a tennis ball and you do the scene regardless because you can't let them affect your performance. Your performance

Michael Jamin:

Performance

Chris Gorham:

Has to be there.

Michael Jamin:

But let's say you were working with a casting director. I've worked with many, obviously many, and some cast directors, they'll read with you, and some of them are not great actors. No

Chris Gorham:

Read bad.

Michael Jamin:

And then you have, as an actor, you were trained to react and to what they give you, but how do you deal with it when they're not giving you

Chris Gorham:

Enough? It is. It's really hard. It's one of the nice things about this whole self take resolution is that's kind of taken out of it because you've got, hopefully you have someone working with you that's going to give you something. And if not, you can do multiple takes and send the best one. It was always one of the most difficult things about auditioning in the room is when you are, and I've heard so many horror stories, I've experienced just a couple, but when you're doing your audition and the person you're reading with is garbage, and so much of it becomes, it's not like how convincing their reading is. For me, it was always a rhythm thing. It was like they just aren't listening. And so the rhythm gets completely screwed up. And it's like,

Michael Jamin:

I always feel for actors when they have to do this, you have a crappy sketching director. It's like, well, what so hard.

Chris Gorham:

Or you look up and the casting director's like on the phone,

Michael Jamin:

That's even worse. Eating

Chris Gorham:

Lunch and not this.

Michael Jamin:

If you prepared a scene and in this moment you're going to be hot, you're going to be yelling, and the casting director is not giving you enough for you to get angry at. So you're saying you just go ahead and do it the way you prepared, even though if the scene, but then it looks like you're almost looks like you're crazy. You're getting angry and the cast director's at the lunch. It's just something you got to deal with

Chris Gorham:

Because that's the scene. And they're probably, even when you were in the office, usually they were recording it. Right. So all they're going to see is your side.

Michael Jamin:

Okay.

Chris Gorham:

So you have to do

Michael Jamin:

That's good advice.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

I remember, this is years ago, we did a scene. We had this very famous actress. Actress. She was older, and we booked her and she came for the role and it was exciting to have her on set. She was very famous, but she should not be working. Her agent should not have booked her because I've

Chris Gorham:

Had an experience

Michael Jamin:

Like that too. Really? So maybe she had dementia. I felt terrible because she clearly had dementia or early signs of dementia, so she literally couldn't remember one line. So you'd feed her the line, and even still, she couldn't remember it half a second later. And I just felt she, I didn't know what to do. I was like, she's struggling here. She's probably feels very embarrassed, very lost. Very, why did her agent send her out for this book? Maybe because she needed the insurance. I don't know. But it was a horrible situation. I felt bad all around.

Chris Gorham:

I've worked with an actress who a very similar situation, and they went to cue cards and they just did it line by line.

Michael Jamin:

Even with QI wanted to bring in cue cards. The director said, I don't want to bring q. I was like, what are you doing, dude? This is awful. I lost that fight. I thought we needed cue cards. They just

Chris Gorham:

Shot her side line by line, and then I just did my side to an X.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting. That's one of the realities of being on a TV show.

Chris Gorham:

Totally. And it's one of the, but also why it's so important to not to get, just to do, at the end of the day, be responsible for your performance and make sure that you're giving the best performance that you can give and you can't control the other stuff that's happening. And then as an actor, then trust your director and your camera operators and your review that they're going to take care of you as best that they can and your editor. But it doesn't behoove anyone to make you look like an idiot unless you're supposed to look like an idiot. Right,

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Chris Gorham:

Everyone wants to make the show. Great.

Michael Jamin:

Are your kids getting into acting or have they expressed any No. You said with relief. No, not in the arts at all.

Chris Gorham:

No, no, no, not at all.

Michael Jamin:

Your wife was an actor. I mean, I'm, yeah, I'm surprised that there's not that pull.

Chris Gorham:

Well, my oldest son is autistic. He finished high school and now he's got a part-time job like pharmacy down the street. He's doing well, and his younger brother is studying business, wants to go into real estate. Oh, good. It's like, okay.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, thank God.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. And then our youngest loves to sing, has a beautiful singing voice. But yeah, no, he isn't really interested

Michael Jamin:

Going

Chris Gorham:

Into the business, which is fine. We've never put any pressure on

Michael Jamin:

Them. Well, sure.

Chris Gorham:

And had they had a passion for it, we would be supportive, but it's just not, their hearts

Michael Jamin:

Taken them. It's funny. I'm sure they've come to set with you seen you do it. Yeah.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. They think it's boring. They're like, this is so boring.

Michael Jamin:

It is boring. There's a lot of boring on a set. I don't know if,

Chris Gorham:

Yeah, it's super boring. They've never watching things with me in it because it's weird to see your dad not being your dad. Also, another thing, thinking about it, having just talked about Stacy Linker a little bit ago, I think part of the reason they don't like going to set is because it set. I am the star and not them. So

Michael Jamin:

Oh, interesting.

Chris Gorham:

That doesn't feel great either. It's way better at home.

Michael Jamin:

What is it like for you though, when you're out in public? And fame to me is, so how do you experience fame when someone comes up to you and they think they know you and they want a piece of you? What does that do to you?

Chris Gorham:

Well, I've been really lucky, I feel like, because kind of been able to walk the line where I've experienced being famous enough to have the paparazzi jump out and want to take my picture and talk to me.

Michael Jamin:

That's a lot. That's a level of fame I don't think anybody would want to have,

Chris Gorham:

But never to the point where it really got in the way. It was just a few. There were some moments in my career where I was famous enough that the paparazzi knew who I was and would take my picture, but never famous enough that it really

Michael Jamin:

Bothered

Chris Gorham:

You, caused problems. Never famous enough where I needed security. Never famous enough where it got really inconvenient.

Michael Jamin:

But let's just say you're at a restaurant and someone wants to come up, they want to talk to you, they autographed, they want to meet you.

Chris Gorham:

Most of the time people get it. I'm usually out with my kids and my wife, so they understand if they're coming up and I'm with my wife and kids, that it's a little awkward for them to ask me to stop dinner with my family to talk pictures or take. So that doesn't really happen

Michael Jamin:

Now. Oh, that's good. I mean, Brad, I could see your family being like, oh God, we're trying to have a night. We're trying to be together.

Chris Gorham:

There's been moments like that, especially for the kids. Anelle it, it's always been fun. Early in my career, it was weird because we were on a show and we couldn't go to malls because kids would chase us around malls in the very beginning. But then as you get older, that happens less and less. And then it's just been, sometimes it's surprising. My kids forget for a while. We'll go a while without getting recognized at all. And then weirdly, in Chicago, weirdly, I think the last show that I was on must have lots of people watched it in Chicago. And so suddenly, anytime I'm in Chicago, I'm recognized all the time. And so It's like my kids remember. Oh, right. Dad's on tv.

Michael Jamin:

That's so

Chris Gorham:

Funny. Funny. When Ethan was starting high school was when a very popular show with the high school kids had just premiered. And that was actually really difficult for him. We've talked about it since. He didn't really reveal how hard it was for him, but last year we were talking about it and he was kind of opening up and said, yeah, no, it sucked. It wasn't great.

Michael Jamin:

Really?

Chris Gorham:

You were doing that show while I was starting high school and so everyone knew who I was and everyone

Michael Jamin:

Knew who all his friends and all the kids. Yeah. It's hard for a kid and it

Chris Gorham:

Was embarrassing.

Michael Jamin:

Yes, it was. They were embarrassed that you were their dad.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. Really? It was super embarrassing. Yeah. Well, because of what that show, because of my character on the show for high school kids, just, it was a lot. I was physically quite exposed on that show and so yeah, it was a lot. It a lot.

Michael Jamin:

Oh wow. We did a show with these two guys link and these were big YouTubers and they were huge. And I hadn't heard of them. I didn't know them. And then remember we'd go for the meeting and one of them said to me, you wouldn't believe this, but I can't go to Disneyland without being swarmed. That was his crowd. He's like, I know you've never seen me before, but I can't go there without being swarmed.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

It's so funny. Yeah,

Chris Gorham:

It's wild. Yeah. That was,

Michael Jamin:

It's interesting that this, go ahead, please.

Chris Gorham:

No, no, no, no. It was just a dumb Disneyland story. Go ahead.

Michael Jamin:

No.

Chris Gorham:

Well, the dumb Disneyland story was, there was a period in my career where working on a certain show where we could not only go to Disneyland for free, but also were given the guide and the behind we were taking care of at Disneyland, like a celebrity, which was funny because it was so, we did it a couple times, but I think even just the second time we went to Disney Disneyland, that way, it's too much. Honestly. It sounds great, and it's great the first time to be able to skip all the lines, you know what I mean? But after that, it's like, oh, there's actually way less to do at Disneyland than you think when you don't have to wait in line for anything.

Michael Jamin:

That's so funny. You kind

Chris Gorham:

Of finish it all in four hours and then you're like, oh,

Michael Jamin:

Now what? Now what?

Chris Gorham:

Again?

Michael Jamin:

That's so funny. Yeah.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

I'm always curious, I am always curious about how people experience I'm around you guys and how you guys experience fame and what is it like that parasocial relationship where people think they know you and they don't. They just know this part of you.

Chris Gorham:

It's different for everybody.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I always feel like it must be like, am I giving you what? When someone comes up to you, is there that thought in your head? Where am I giving you what you wanted? You just met me. Am I giving you what you wanted? Because I don't know what you wanted and am I who you wanted me to be for five minutes? Oh, that's funny.

Chris Gorham:

I don't think about it that way. I've just tried to be kind to people just, I just try to be kind. Just be kind. That's all. That's really all I'm thinking about is just because, listen, it could be worse. It's not terrible for people to be happy to see you generally.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Chris Gorham:

That's not terrible. That's kind of nice. Can it be inconvenient? Sorry.

Michael Jamin:

Well, I saw a clip of Eve who played Jan Brady, right. And she was on the talk show. This clip was probably 30 years old or whatever, and someone in the audience said, can you just do it? Can you just say it? Can you say it right? And she's like, we knew what you wanted. We knew everyone knew. She wanted her to say, Marsha, Marsha, Marsha. And she was like, I'm not going to say it. I won't say it, and why not? And everyone was so disappointed, and I felt for her. I was like, because she doesn't want to be your performing monkey now. And that was when she was 10.

Chris Gorham:

Well, that's the thing too. It's like is a one you can be kind and say no.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah,

Chris Gorham:

Right. Just being kind doesn't mean you're going to say yes to every request,

Michael Jamin:

But that sounds like something you've maybe had a long conversation with a therapist to come to that conversation. Really? Yeah. That's something I would struggle with. Someone would say, you know, could be kind still say, no, am I allowed to? But you're saying you came to this realization on your own.

Chris Gorham:

I dunno. I don't know. Listen, I do see a therapist, and so maybe I don't remember having a breakthrough about that specifically, but certainly walking things through with a therapist can only help. Also, I think being a dad helps with that because in parenting, so much of the job is saying no. And that can be really hard sometimes, certainly for some people, but it's an important part of the job.

Michael Jamin:

Talk about how important do you think it is, and for you to either, okay. As a writer, I think it's very important to spend at least some amount of time in therapy because if you don't know yourself, how could you possibly know another character? And I wonder if you feel the same way. Same thing about acting.

Chris Gorham:

Oh, I've never thought about it that way.

Michael Jamin:

Really?

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. Yeah. No, I never thought about that way. But it certainly can be helpful. I mean, for the same reason. It just, it's spending that time thinking about, and sometimes it's taking that hour just thinking about the whys of things. You spend so much of your days reacting to everything and taking the time to go, okay, why did this lead to this? Why did I do that when this happened to me? And as a person, it's going to help you stay more regulated and be just healthier in life. But also, yeah, for sure. There's going to be moments when you're going to be able to understand a character brother, because you've maybe put some thought into why people do

Michael Jamin:

These things, why people do. Yeah.

Chris Gorham:

I been, one of the things I've started doing during the strike is working as a substitute teacher.

Michael Jamin:

Really? For one of the public schools nearby.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. Yeah. For elementary

Michael Jamin:

School, middle school. How hard is that? Wait for elementary school.

Chris Gorham:

Elementary school and middle school.

Michael Jamin:

And middle school. You won't have the balls to do high school, do you?

Chris Gorham:

School? Well, my kids at the high school, I've been banned from the high school. And also I think I'm too recognizable to be at the high school. It would be distracting. Whereas the middle school and the elementary school kids, they don't dunno anything.

Michael Jamin:

So what's that?

Chris Gorham:

What is that like? Well, it's been great actually. It's been great. And I think one of the things that you really see, or I really see is just, there's no such thing as a bad kid. There's just no such thing.

Michael Jamin:

So you see kids that are struggling in pain or whatever. Yeah.

Chris Gorham:

Listen, there's kids that act up. There's kids, but what is that? Right? They're begging for attention. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

So what do you do?

Chris Gorham:

So it depends on the kid, but it's a great lesson that I think in talking about what we do and acting and writing, it's a great lesson to getting at why are characters behaving the way that they're behaving. In my career, I've played good guys and bad guys and everybody in between. And I'm often asked, how do you play this horrible human being? It's like, well, part of the job is figuring out why he's doing what he's doing, because it makes sense to him, either mentally or emotionally. He's doing what feels right for him in that moment. And objectively, we're looking at,

Michael Jamin:

Do you ask for help with that, with the director or the actor? If you're struggling with that, why am I such a dick in this scene?

Chris Gorham:

Sometimes? Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes it's an important conversation if it doesn't make sense, because also sometimes, frankly, this script hasn't got you there, or I can't see it. It's like, this doesn't feel justified. Can you help me connect the dots? So

Michael Jamin:

Funny, just as I was saying that we ran this show with Mark Marin, the comedian, and the show was based on his life. And so we did this one, we wrote this one scene where he's giving a speech, he's getting out of rehab, and he's giving his goodbye speech or whatever. And the speech that we wrote for him was so ungracious, he was being a real jerk. It was like, goodbye, you're all good luck. See you here in three weeks because everyone, you're all going to relapse. He was such a jerk. And right before we're shooting it, mark comes up to me, he goes, I don't understand why I'm such a dick in this scene. And I'm like, uhoh, how do I break this to you based on your life, mark? And I go,

Chris Gorham:

It's

Michael Jamin:

Because Mark, sometimes you can be a dick. And I'm like, oh, here we go. He's going to punch me in the face. He's going to punch me. And he just looks at me. He goes, okay, got it. That's all he needed.

Chris Gorham:

I see it now.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. It was. Yeah. It's been really, yeah. One of the things that coming up in it school, you go through, you learn all these different techniques, the miser techniques, method acting is STR U Hagan and all this stuff. And so much of it, it's like watch people, watch people listen to people, listen to how different people talk, listen to how people talk about the same thing, or watch how people move. And so it's been one of the just kind of unexpected blessings about being around these kids just being exposed to an entirely different group of little humans who are so, they have fewer masks on than adults. So it just, it's really easy, especially as a dad coming in and having been around, I feel like that's an advantage for me. But just to see, it's like, oh, I see what's happening here. Oh, I see what's going on there. Oh, that's so cool.

Michael Jamin:

It's so fun. I can see the same thing as a writer. If I'm at a coffee shop, when you're watching two people, often people are not, if they're sitting at the same table, they're not having a conversation. They're just taking turns talking. Which is different. Which is different, right? Yes,

Chris Gorham:

Yes. So different. So different. It's been, yeah, it's like when you see people just, they're not listening. They're just waiting for their

Michael Jamin:

Turn. Yeah, they're waiting for their turn. Right. That's just so fun about the job. Wow. Yeah. Chris, we had a long talk and don't think, I think maybe we bumped on, we touched on only a couple things. We talked from last time, and yet this is all new terrain. And you, I'm so

Chris Gorham:

Glad.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Chris Gorham:

I mean, well, you're easy to talk to my friend.

Michael Jamin:

Well, you're a fantastic guest. I mean, I don't know. I just feel like I learned, I learned so much. I rebranded the podcast basically was because I wanted to talk to more people. It was originally, it was about screenwriting, but I really wanted to talk to artists, basically people whose work I admire, and you for sure are one of them. And just about how they, I don't know. What's it like to be an artist and how to approach your work. I know you take it so seriously and I have so much admiration for that

Chris Gorham:

Man. It's the greatest job in the world, and it's a job that it matters.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, it matters. I've said that and people, I made a post about that. And I don't know people, I don't know if it was well received, because it doesn't matter. But it does matter.

Chris Gorham:

No, it really, storytelling is one of just the founding pillars of our society and of community. Storytelling is so important. It is how we see ourselves. It's how we learn how to behave and how we learn about other people, because it's how we get outside of our own lived experience and can experience the lived experience of others. It's vital.

Michael Jamin:

And stories connect us. And now more than ever in this country, we need something that connects us. We're so divided. I dunno.

Chris Gorham:

It's one of those things that helps us feel less alone,

Michael Jamin:

Feels less, exactly. Feel.

Chris Gorham:

And the world can be a very lonely place. So I'm very, I've been very,

Michael Jamin:

I wonder when people's, but I wonder when people, I say this and they don't recognize the value of the arts. When I say it helps us feel less alone and they can't get there. They can't. I wonder, is it because they're just alone? I wonder if they're so alone, they can't even get there.

Chris Gorham:

Sometimes. Sometimes. But problems, community is just the most important thing. Strong communities lead to happier people, lead to less crime, need to just happier lives like community is so important. And it's one of the very important ways that we can help build communities by sharing our stories with each other. Or sometimes just fucking laughing about something, like needing to sit down and laugh about something or get excited or get swept away to another world. Or it can be anything, but I mean, it's as vital. It's as old as the species. Right?

Michael Jamin:

And when people come home

Chris Gorham:

Changed,

Michael Jamin:

Often people come home for a long day at work, hard day at work, what do they do? They'll turn on the TV even if they're not going to watch it just to feel less alone. Yeah.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. No, I'm very proud of so much of the work that I've been able to do and so grateful to be allowed to do it. I really look forward to getting back to work as soon as our friends at the BTP can bring themselves to give us the deal that we need to make to get back.

Michael Jamin:

By the time this airs, I hope I have a little bit of a lag. I hope it's done. But some people are thinking, well, maybe it'll get done this weekend. There's some optimism. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Gorham:

I hope so. I hope so.

Michael Jamin:

Well, if not,

Chris Gorham:

We'll see you on the picket lines, my friend.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, for sure. And you were there for sure, the writers right from the beginning. But I want to thank you again for sharing your time so generously, because this was a great talk. I think this is going to help a lot of people help me. So anytime, man, thank you again, Chris Gorm, round of applause. Thank you so much, man.

So now we all know what the hell Michael Jamin talking about. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for my free monthly webinars @michaeljamin.com/webinar. And if you found this podcast helpful or entertaining, please share it with a friend and consider leaving us a five star review on iTunes that really, really helps. For more of this, whatever the hell this is, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. And you can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane and music was composed by Anthony Rizzo. And remember, you can have excuses or you can have a creative life, but you can't have both. See you next week.

On this week's episode, I have from the Youtube channel "Tasting History", Max Miller. Tune in as we about the origins of what made him start this channel as well as his New York Times best-selling cookbook "Tasting History: Explore the Past through 4,000 Years of Recipes (A Cookbook)." We also dive into the complications of trying to be successful on all forms of social media.

Max Miller on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tastinghistorywithmaxmiller/

Max Miller on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@tastinghistory

Max Miller on YouTube:  @TastingHistory 

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

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Max Miller:

A lot of people are like, this feels like an old PBS show. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

It's classier. Yeah,

Max Miller:

It is classier. And so I'm like, I don't think the thumbnail where I'm on there going, would, you're not going to, because the video is not going to deliver on that. That's not what the video is. And so then it is clickbait, and I hate that

Michael Jamin:

You're listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity, I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts.

Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to another episode of, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Well, today I'm talking about as always, people who are doing creative things who have invented themselves creatively. And so my next guest has done just that. He's tasting history with Max Miller. He is the host, and tasting history is a really interesting channel. Well, actually I'll get to it, but he's got 2 million subscribers, which is gigantic on YouTube. So Max, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining me.

Max Miller:

Thank you for having me. Excited.

Michael Jamin:

I am so inspired by what you're doing. So basically your show, for those who don't know, it's a cooking show, but it's also, he talks about it's historical cooking, so what they made in ancient Greece or whatever, or what prisoners ate, whatever. And so it's also, it's cooking, but it's also educational, which I find it's such an interesting little niche you have, and yet it's blown up.

Max Miller:

Yeah, it's crazy. I actually always say I have a history show where I cook because it's really to focus more on the history than anything else. Well, tell me, how

Michael Jamin:

Did this all start?

Max Miller:

It started, well, it kind of started with a great British bakeoff. When that show first came out, actually before it even came out here in the us, I got obsessed with it and started baking everything that they had on it, and that's really how I learned how to bake. But they would always talk about the history of the dishes that they were baking. They don't do that anymore. And so I would bring my baked goods into work. I was working at Disney, the movie studio at the time, and I would bring in the baked goods and tell all of my coworkers a little bit about the history. And then one of my coworkers was like, you know what? Go tell someone else. These little anecdotes, put it up on YouTube, find an audience. And so that's what I did. Wait, were you

Michael Jamin:

Trying to pitch it to Disney? Is that why?

Max Miller:

No, no. It was more that I just needed something creative to do my job at Disney. I loved it, but it wasn't super creative, at least not my creative thing. I was creating stuff for other people.

Michael Jamin:

What were you doing then at Disney?

Max Miller:

I had been working in marketing, so I had worked on the trailers and stuff like that. And then in the months before the pandemic, really, I was working in sales, selling our movies to the theaters, which was actually a lot of fun and challenging, but not super creative in the way that I like to be.

Michael Jamin:

But tell me, so you're not familiar, you moved to LA for what reason then

Max Miller:

To do voiceover

Michael Jamin:

To be a voiceover actor?

Max Miller:

Yeah, I had been in New York doing musical theater for eight years, and New York is exhausting. And I decided, you know what? I need a slower pace of life. So I moved out here and I had a few friends out here and I wanted to do voiceover. I was always much more comfortable behind a mic than I was on stage or in front of a camera. And so I was like, okay, animation, that's the way to go. And so I did that for a little while. Did you

Michael Jamin:

Have much success at it?

Max Miller:

It's funny you ask. So in animation, no. I did a few little things and in commercial, couple little things, but where I ended up getting a lot of work was in audio books because I have the voice of, especially then of a 16-year-old boy. And so I was doing a lot of YA audio books. Interesting.

Michael Jamin:

See, this is so interesting. Okay, so you were an actor trying to get even more acting gigs and you must have become alright. It's good that you made some money doing voiceover for books, but it doesn't sound like you were as accomplished as you wanted to be. Is that right?

Max Miller:

Yeah, no, I mean, I always had to be working at a restaurant or I started temping at Disney, and then that just turned into a full-time job. But yeah, I never made a full living for more than six months at a time. I always had to call back.

Michael Jamin:

So you were, as I talk about this a lot, actors and writers the same thing. Help me get in the door, help me do the, everyone's always begging for an opportunity. Get me in, please let me, and then I guess at some point you just decided, I'm tired of asking. I'm just going to do something that I want to do. And this is what happens when you put energy into something, you created your own little thing and you blew up.

Max Miller:

Yeah, no, I mean that's the amazing thing about YouTube and TikTok and Instagram. You couldn't do this 15, 20 years ago, or at least you could do it. It was just nobody would have a place to watch you do it. Now, it's not easy, but it's available. It's an option.

Michael Jamin:

From what I see your show, everyone should again check it out. Tasting history with Max Miller, it seems like it's really well produced and it seems like this is a TV show, but it's free on the internet. That's what I see when I look at it.

Max Miller:

Well, thank you. All I notice is, oh, my lighting this week was terrible or, oh God, there's a typo on the screen. I only notice all the mistakes that I make. But

Michael Jamin:

Do you shoot this? It's in chat in the kitchen. Is the kitchen in your house?

Max Miller:

Yep.

Michael Jamin:

It's your kitchen and it's lit. Do you have a team helping you or you doing this all your own on your own?

Max Miller:

It's all me. You

Michael Jamin:

Have no one helping you.

Max Miller:

I don't want to say no one helps me because my husband does the subtitles and he reads all the scripts beforehand to make sure that it's coherent, because once in a while I'll say something and he's like, what is this? And I'm like, everyone knows what that is. And he's like, no, everyone doesn't. So then I fix up. What about

Michael Jamin:

Editing and stuff?

Max Miller:

So I just in the last couple months brought on someone to help me with some of the editing. I still end up doing all the images and a lot of that, but she's fantastic and has cut down the major part of the editing for me because that was, I mean, I would spend 15 hours, 12 to 15 hours each episode just editing. And now it's maybe four. A

Michael Jamin:

Lot of that. Now you use a lot of time, I imagine, to research and to prep and to practice these recipes you're doing. Is that right?

Max Miller:

Yeah, research is definitely the most intensive part. It's also my favorite part though. It's probably depending on the episode, anywhere from 12 to 20 hours of research and then kind of crafting the script.

Michael Jamin:

So this is your full-time job now? This is how you make your living?

Max Miller:

Yes.

Michael Jamin:

Fantastic. It's

Max Miller:

More hours than I've ever worked in my life,

Michael Jamin:

But I mean, you're great at it. You're great on camera. The content is very interesting, very engaging. Sometimes you take it in the field, which is a great write off. It's an excuse to get out of the house and shoot something on the field, which is great. Exactly. Have other opportunities come from this unexpected opportunities maybe?

Max Miller:

Yes, absolutely. One I'm not actually allowed to talk about, but it'll be something on the standard actual television, so that's exciting. And then the other is I wrote a cookbook, and that has done immensely well. It was on the New York Times bestseller list, which was something I never really expected that I would be on.

Michael Jamin:

Did they reach out to you? Did a publisher reach out to you or did you

Max Miller:

Yeah, they reached out to me shortly after I started the channel. Actually, I think it was about six months in. It was somebody who had watched my Garam episode and said, we would love to do this as a book. And it ended up being kind of rough because she was super excited about the project and she knew the channel, and then she got laid off. So I got transferred to another editor who has been absolutely great, but he didn't really know what to do with me. He did cookbooks. And I was like, well, this is a history book with recipes in it. And he's like, okay. So it took a little time to kind of figure out exactly what we were doing, but it ended up working out. But

Michael Jamin:

This is interesting because most people will approach a publisher, please, I got a book by my, but when you build it yourself, it's the other way around, and it's just so much make them come to you, and it's because you put the work in first. And how big was your channel when they first reached out to you?

Max Miller:

Not huge. Maybe in the 200 to 250,000 subscriber, which is actually really big, but not where I am now.

Michael Jamin:

What was the first video that you blew up on? What was that?

Max Miller:

Rum? So I started the channel the last week of February, and this was, I think the third week of June. That's fast. It wasn't that long after starting. It was because it was covid and nobody had anything to do, but watch YouTube videos. I had been getting a few thousand views on my videos, which I thought was stellar. This really wasn't supposed to be a thing. And then within a week it was at almost a million views, and I had jumped from 10,000 subscribers to 150,000 in a week.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. Wow. Now, I guess you can't talk about, obviously you can't this project, this network project, but what about acting opportunities and I mean, you're a face now, you're this guy, people know.

Max Miller:

Yeah, I mean, when it comes to acting opportunities, everything right now is acting myself. And I'm sure that if I went out and auditioned, maybe I could get something, but I don't have time.

Michael Jamin:

Time.

Max Miller:

This is what it is. And really at this point, if I did something acting wise, I'd probably want to go back to musical theater, which was my first love and do some shows. But wow,

Michael Jamin:

I wouldn't roll that out. I mean, you keep on building your audience and I certainly would not roll that out. I mean, what is fame? Are you getting recognized now or what's it like for you?

Max Miller:

I am. I actually just got recognized at Costco today. Really? Yeah. It's funny. I get recognized very seldom here in Los Angeles because I think everyone sees people out all the time. But whenever I go anywhere else, I always get, which is pretty awesome. Even in Greece, really? In Greece, I recognized every day in Greece by people who watched this one video when I did this Spartan blood broth video. Everyone in Greece, I swear, has seen that video. So that's how they all knew me. I wonder if it's awesome.

Michael Jamin:

I wonder if fame for people like you is different than movie actors or TV actors in the sense that you're this friend that they watch on the Or what do you think

Max Miller:

It is more of that? I mean, I don't know what it's like for Beyonce, but I know for me, I do get a lot of people who it is, we already have a relationship and that we're good friends because we hang out for 20 minutes every Tuesday.

Michael Jamin:

But not only that, they're probably looking you on their phone, which is this, it's not even the TV mean to me that famous is such an interesting thing. I worked with obviously a lot of actors, but they create, when you're an actor, it's the character that they know. And sometimes they have a hard time differentiating between you and the villain that you play. It's like, that's not me. But with you, it's different. I think it must be very different. You're a friend, I think, right?

Max Miller:

And I mean, in the show, that's me. I'm not playing character at all. It's just this is how I am. And so it does create a bond. I guess you do get to know. It is so much more about the creator. There are other people who have maybe started to kind of do what I do or that were already kind of doing what I do slightly differently. I'm not the first person to cook historical food by any means, but I'm me doing it and they are them doing it. And so it will always be different. People are like, oh, they're coming for you. No, there's so much room for everyone because everyone is an individual. And b, Dylan Hollis approaches historic food in a very different way. I don't know if you know him, but he's on TikTok. He's huge. He's fantastic. He has a great cookbook out, but his personality is his personality, and mine is mine. And even if we covered the exact same topic, it would be done in such a different way.

Michael Jamin:

Was there ever any imposter syndrome on your end? I didn't go to culinary school. I'm not a this or that

Max Miller:

Every day. I mean, the fact that I have a cookbook out is insane. Yeah, no, there is both on the cooking end of things and the history end of things, because I'm not a trained historian either, really. The show is just me reading things that I thought were interesting and me fumbling my way through the kitchen until I come up with something that I think was what the recipe was trying to get at.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I mean, a lot of times these recipes as I look at 'em, they just say what the ingredients are. They don't say the proportions. They certainly don't say the temperature was cooked at if it was cooked in middle Ages. And so you're just going by what you think it should be.

Max Miller:

Yeah. They're all vague sometimes to the degree of, you can't even tell if this is a bread or a soup, kind of vague. But with context clues, you can't just read the recipe. You have to read other things usually in the cookbooks or other cookbooks from the time. And then leaning on other historians and scholars who have done work for years and years, you're kind of able to make an educated guess on a lot of things. But that's all it's ever going to be.

Michael Jamin:

But can you tell me how food dishes have changed over the centuries? Are we using way more sugar now or something?

Max Miller:

Oh yeah. Yeah. And I mean, partly because our pallets have just changed in a way, at least here in the United States, but also because it's so much cheaper. In the Middle Ages, they loved sugar, but it was being grown in Indonesia or India, and so it had to come a long way. And then it had to be refined to become white sugar, which was an incredibly lengthy process and incredibly expensive and really only done in one or two places in the world. So a little bit of sugar was like it was buying a Lamborghini and showing off your wealth. So most people didn't get it. Whereas then you get to the 18th century and all the poor people are putting sugar in their tea. Oh, really? And so the rich people were like, we don't want that in our food anymore. We're going to go with fresh ingredients instead.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, really? Really? Yeah. How interesting. And then that's another thing, processed food is so relatively new and obviously, was there any kind of version of processed food historically before modern age?

Max Miller:

I guess it depends on what you mean by processed.

Michael Jamin:

I don't know. Something that was, I don't know. What does it mean to be processed?

Max Miller:

If you take corn and make it into cornmeal and mix Alize it, which is a laborious process that needs lie, and you're boiling it and then grinding it in a certain way, the Aztecs did that. So it's been done and far before them thousands of years. So that's a process. Making sugar into white sugar is a lengthy process, but that's been done for hundreds of years. Well, no, thousands of years. So is it a Stouffer's microwave meal? No, but we have had processed food for forever. It's just a different process.

Michael Jamin:

What do you think when you cook it? I imagine the biggest problem, this is why a cooking show will never work. This is why I'm an executive. No, this is why it'll never work, is because people can't taste it. And yet obviously it does work. And so how do you get over that hurdle when you're done with a dish?

Max Miller:

I mean, I think honestly, visually, people aren't able to kind of feel like they know what something tastes like just by knowing all the ingredients that are in it and then seeing it visually, whether that is correct or not to say, but that doesn't mean that the enjoyment isn't still there. And then I taste it at the end of the episode, and I try my best to describe it, but my descriptions skills are not the best, especially on the fly, because usually when I'm tasting something on camera, it is the first time that I've ever tasted it. I only make the recipes once. So unless something goes horribly wrong, it's the first time that I've tasted it. And so right then coming up with words of how to describe it, I'm not the best. It's something I'm working on, but it doesn't seem to harm things.

Michael Jamin:

But I'm a little surprised when you say it's you alone in the kitchen. You have a couple of cameras, you turn 'em on, you hope they're in focus, and you run in front of the camera. I'm surprised you don't have a director, I don't know, giving you, helping you more joy on your face or something.

Max Miller:

So it's funny you say that. Every Jose, my husband focuses the camera right before I shoot to make sure I'm in focus, because so many times I've filmed an entire thing and I'm not, so he focuses the camera hits record and then says high energy, and then leaves the room. And so that's the direction that I get at the beginning, high energy. And often in my script, I will write in more energy, more energy, just because you do need a lot of energy on camera to come through. You

Michael Jamin:

Do. People don't realize that

Max Miller:

When you're really just being yourself on camera, it comes across as super flat.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, it's a heightened version of

Max Miller:

Yourself, have to remind myself.

Michael Jamin:

Right. And so actually, I had a lot of thoughts about that, but I wonder if this is an opportunity for you to do even, I don't know, like a live show, I don't know, cooking. I don't know. Is there something like that that you're thinking about exploring or

Max Miller:

So yeah, I actually have thought about doing live shows simply because one of my favorite things to do is meet people who watch the show. It's a very insular kind of life. I work alone. I do everything pretty much all at home alone. So meeting people who watch the show has been really exciting. And on book tour, I got to do that really for the first time. And so I think doing a live thing where I cook and talk about the history would be great. The only thing is I am a really messy and slow cook. I'm not Julia Child who used to do it all live every week. I couldn't do that. So

Michael Jamin:

You have two versions. You got the messy version. And oh, by the way, I did this earlier. Here's the real version. I mean, I think people would know that would be kind. You know what I'm saying? They don't understand.

Max Miller:

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

You don't know. Is it hard for you when you watch your video, I guess when you're editing, you watch everything, but now that you're not editing it, what's it like for you even watching yourself

Max Miller:

Really once it's out,

I never watch 'em again. And it's not necessarily that I find it hard to watch myself. What I find hard is when I do go back and watch older videos, it pains me to see, I'm proud of how far I've come, but it pains me that I was ever not where I am now. And that comes with the technical aspects, the lighting, the sound, all of that. But really more than anything, it's my script. Writing has just become so much tighter. How I go in depth on the history has really changed. So eventually I want to go back to some of the earlier topics that I talked about and redo them because I'm like, I talked about the history for three minutes. I've got 20 minutes of content to do. So people

Michael Jamin:

Don't realize that sometimes they think they're afraid of putting themselves out there because they're going to suck and you are going to suck. That's why you keep doing going to, yeah. Oh, it came in my head and just lost it. Oh, I know what I was going to say. Do you feel this pressure, I mean, you do one a week, right?

Max Miller:

Usually once in a while I'll do two, but usually once a week.

Michael Jamin:

Do you feel this incredible? It never ends. It never ends. Is that a burden? Is that something you struggle with or no?

Max Miller:

Yeah. Yeah, it is. Because it is. Every weekend people are like, well, you could take a week off, but one YouTube does not. They say they don't mind that, but they do. The algorithm does. And two, for me, I feel like it's going to be like the gym. If I take one day off of the gym, I'm probably going to take two days off, and that'll be a week. And I think if I miss one episode, I'll be like, oh, well, I'll do that again next month. So every Tuesday, I can't think too, too far ahead because it does get kind of daunting. It's like, oh my gosh, when will I run out of ideas? And when I go on vacation or take a trip somewhere, getting those videos ready ahead of time, my friends, and they don't see me for weeks at a time because I'm working from 7:00 AM until 9:00 PM seven days a week for the two weeks before I go on vacation.

Michael Jamin:

It's that much work. Really. Yeah,

Max Miller:

It is. I work probably 10 hours a day with breaks of petting the cats and going to get lunch. But it's all day and it's pretty much seven days a week in some respect. Even if I'm not working on an episode per se, I'm coming up with ideas for other things. I'm going through my emails. It takes me months to respond to an email or going on Instagram and cleaning up that and Facebook. There's just so many different aspects to it that there is no time that I'm not somewhat in tasting history mode.

Michael Jamin:

When you say cleaning up Instagram, what does that mean?

Max Miller:

Going through comments, going through messages.

Michael Jamin:

Now I'm going to get to the real stuff. So when you say going through comments, is any of it haters? Are you dealing with any haters?

Max Miller:

Very rarely. I have a really positive audience, but they come along and there's a fair share of well actually going on. And I think anytime that you share facts of any kind, you're going to get that because especially with history, there's so much up for debate. There's so much vagueness in history that you can't ever please everyone. Do you

Michael Jamin:

Respond to them? How do you treat it?

Max Miller:

Once in a while, I will. If they're polite, then I will. If they're not, then I don't, because usually it's like, well, they're having a bad day. You know what? I've watched your channel

Michael Jamin:

That's asking, that's why I want to know how you do it. Because it's hard.

Max Miller:

It is really hard. And when I first started, a mean comment would ruin my week. I would dwell on it. I get a thousand good comments and get one bad one, and it just all week. And I'm like, should I change how I do my entire show based on this one person's opinion? Maybe now it ruins my hour, and then I usually forget about it.

Michael Jamin:

Do you leave it there? Or, oh, go ahead, please.

Max Miller:

So sometimes I do, but a lot of times I don't, especially it, it's really just mean. Or if there's any kind of racism, homophobia or anything like that, which does happen, I get rid of it. But if it's more of just a critique of any kind, I'll usually leave it.

Michael Jamin:

Do you block these people or No,

Max Miller:

I only block people if they are being truly vile. I don't need them in my audience. I also have a secret weapon, and that is my husband who actually does go through all of the comments and gets rid of most of the mean ones before I can ever see them.

Michael Jamin:

But he doesn't respond. He doesn't engage, or does he

Max Miller:

Not with the mean one. No. He just gets rid of 'em. He engages with the positive.

Michael Jamin:

Right. People don't realize it. I mean, it really is. It's one of these weird things where you have a voice, you now have a platform, you have a voice, but in many ways, you can't use it. You can't respond it. It's just that you just can't, can't.

Max Miller:

It's never going to do any benefit. Really though there have been times where I have responded, and especially if somebody tries to correct me, and I'm not always right. I've made mistakes. That's just the nature of putting stuff out there. But if I know I'm correct and they try to correct me, I'll respond and say, Hey, actually they did have sugar in the middle ages. And very often, even if it's a nasty worded comment, they will follow up being uber apologetic and like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. I don't know why I came across that way because most people, and myself included, when you're on your phone or whatever, whatever crap comes to your brain goes onto the phone and it's gone. And then you don't think about it anymore. But when I get it, it's all I think about.

Michael Jamin:

But I disagree with you. I'm guessing the fact that you've been doing this so long with your channel, I bet you don't leave any kind of comments that are even remotely negative now.

Max Miller:

No. No. I do not. What comes, but sometimes when I'm responding to comments, I don't necessarily even think about the response. And it's not that I'm responding in a negative way or mean, it's just I will respond to 10 comments and realize I was on autopilot. I wasn't even really reading necessarily what, and so I got to take a second and be like, they took time to comment. I'm going to take time to read it and respond. Granted, I only respond to maybe 1% of the comments, but those comments,

Michael Jamin:

Isn't

Max Miller:

That interesting? I try to actually respond.

Michael Jamin:

I'm curious to how you think this whole thing, and it hasn't been that long. It's only been, what, two or three years your channel has been up?

Max Miller:

It'll be four in February.

Michael Jamin:

Four. Okay. Wow. Okay. So how do you think it's changed you as a person?

Max Miller:

I've always had a good work ethic, but now it is a little just, I have a very good work ethic. I don't want to call myself a workaholic. I do take breaks to play with Lego and stuff, but I really hold my, because nobody else is going to hold me accountable. So I just have to really hold myself accountable. This is not the first creative endeavor I've tried. I worked on a book for a while. I worked in animation, making my own cartoons for a while. I was doing all this other stuff, and once it didn't work out or whatever, I'd get frustrated and I'd stop doing it. This is the only one that I've stuck with no matter what. It's just like you got to put out the work. Even if I get to sit down in my computer one day, and this happens every week and I have no ideas, and I'm looking at a blank page, and I'm like, I don't know what next week's episode is going to be. I just sit there until it comes to me. And that is not how I was when I worked on some of my other projects. It was like, if it doesn't come easily, I quit.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Are the animations the yours then, in your show? Do you do all that then?

Max Miller:

Yeah. I mean by animations. Well, I don't know the words coming up on screen. Well,

Michael Jamin:

I thought I saw other stuff, but no. Why are you not adding animation then?

Max Miller:

So there are two things that I didn't animate. So when the show first started, I animated the opening segment and the time for history, little interstitial. But a couple of years ago, I hired someone to do a better job, and so they did those. I don't do the animations because animation takes, it takes forever. And really, my most valuable commodity now is my time. And so if there's any way to make stuff go faster and keep it quality, I'll do it.

Michael Jamin:

Now, that's an interesting question because there are ways that you could do this with less quality, but you're not tempted to do it.

Max Miller:

I don't want to say I'm not tempted, but I haven't, and I don't think I will. I'm often tempted, I think that I could find editors to find images for me, I have tried. It's been far less quality. I've hired people to help with scripts, and it just hasn't worked out. And I don't want to say I'm the best. I'm the only one that can do this. I know that's not the case. I'm sure that other people could do it. It's I'm not great at, I'm not great at giving up control because it's my thing and I know exactly how I want it to be. And could I get out more episodes if I gave up that control? Yeah, probably. But it's doing so well, I guess I don't need it to, I'm fine having one channel and having it do as it's doing. People are like, well, you should be doing this project and this, and you would have time to do this. And I'm like, yeah, I would. But I like what I'm doing. I'm really enjoying my life right now. So

Michael Jamin:

Was it hard for you to quit your job and to do this full time?

Max Miller:

So I didn't have much of a choice, so I can't say that it was hard because I started the channel in the last week of February, 2020, and I was selling movies to movie theaters.

Michael Jamin:

Okay.

Max Miller:

So by the second week of March, I no longer had a job. I was technically still employed by Disney, and they continued to pay for my insurance and everything. By the time they said, Hey, do you want to come back? It was April of 2021, and the channel had taken off. And so I was like, Nope, I'm going to do this. It's not a sure thing, but my husband was still working for Disney, and so it's not like we would starve if I failed. So I mean, it was a hard decision in as much as I loved my job at Disney and I really missed the people that I worked with. I still miss people. I miss having coworkers. But when it came to, I knew that this was going to work. You did? I just did. Well, it

Michael Jamin:

Kind of already was though. I mean, that's the thing.

Max Miller:

Yeah, no, it kind of already was. And I think I knew that I had a list of hundreds of ideas ready to go, and I knew that I was getting better. And so I thought, well, if I've gotten this much better in a year, I'm going to get a lot better in another year, in two years. So,

Michael Jamin:

Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my content, and I know you do because listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people like you can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michaeljamin.com/. And now back to what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about?

What about collaborations with people? Is that something you do? I didn't notice any.

Max Miller:

I've done a, I have a couple actually coming up that I'm doing. I don't do that many, partly because like,

Michael Jamin:

Hey, look, who's in my kitchen this week?

Max Miller:

Yeah, I think I watched one of your episodes in the last couple of weeks was with someone, young guy on TikTok who said, collaborations are the way to grow. That's not the case with my kind of channel. To a degree, it can, but that's just not, with YouTube. It's not as important anymore. It used to be, but not as much anymore. But also it's a lot more work.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, is it? Why?

Max Miller:

Well, from a technical aspect, I have trouble setting up one microphone alone, two microphones. I have trouble. I film in my kitchen. I know where everything is going to be. So if ever I have to film in any other location, it's a nightmare. And you have to, when I'm writing a script, I'm writing it for me. So when I bring in a second voice and I don't know what they're going to say and everything, it's so much harder. Nothing in my show is off the cuff. I have scripted it down almost to the word. Are you on a teleprompter then? No. So when I'm speaking, it is somewhat off the cuff. It's not word for word what's on the script, but I write out the script word for word. I'll read a paragraph, I'll remember it, and then I'll regurgitate it to the camera. But changing the words ever so slightly, so it comes across as if it's the first time I'm saying it. But no, I'm not on a teleprompter. I don't think I could be. I don't know that it would come across as real

Michael Jamin:

For me. Are you doing multiple takes then, or what, or no? Multiple

Max Miller:

Takes many. Many takes many. Yeah. Especially because I do trip over my words and everything. There are often times a lot of foreign words and complicated names and dates and everything. So I'm always kind of having to look down at the script to remember what I'm saying. And that is what my new editor is editing out. I'll give her an hour and 20 minutes that needs to be cut down into 18 minutes because of all of the mistakes that I've made. And then

Michael Jamin:

You'll give her notes on that cut and use a different take, or No.

Max Miller:

So usually whatever the last take I took is the take that I want. Once I've got it right, I'll move on. And she has my down really, really well. So there are very few comments that I have to give her, and she's super fast, so she turns it around literally three times faster than I ever could. It's pretty astonishing. So it's so far, it's been a great help.

Michael Jamin:

It's so interesting because like I said, it really looks like, I'm surprised that you said you're the only one. It looks like a TV show. It looks like there's a bunch of people helping you out. And so are you monetizing mostly through ads on YouTube or it's selling your cookbook? Do you do that?

Max Miller:

Yeah, I mean, ads is definitely the number one spot for me. And then I have cookbook, I do sponsorships. I have a Patreon. Oh, I

Michael Jamin:

Saw that. That's right. The Patreon, which is so, it's so interesting. Now. That's the problem with Patreon. You have to think of additional bonus content that you charge people for that you're not putting in your show, and yet you're putting so much in your show. What's bonus?

Max Miller:

So there isn't a lot of bonus content on my patron because everything does go, luckily, my patrons, they know how much is going into each episode, so they know that I don't really have time. What's the advantage there? I have other things. The main thing is we do a monthly happy hour, we make a cocktail and we do a Zoom happy hour,

Michael Jamin:

Interesting

Max Miller:

People that actually take advantage of it, which is, and I send out little gifts every few months, magnets and stuff that are associated with the show, stickers, things like that. But one thing I do do is with the first cookbook and with, I'm working on a second, they help me with the recipes. So I give them the recipes and they help with the testing. And so we have just a lot of back and forth, and they're just so helpful and

Michael Jamin:

Oh, wow. So it's more

Max Miller:

Of a relationship that grows with the patrons.

Michael Jamin:

And so you get a handful of people on Zoom and you just chat for an hour or so. And these are basically huge fans. They're just huge fans. That's what they are.

Max Miller:

And it's cool because when I was on book tour, I would actually get to meet some of them in person. They would live in the towns. When I was in Dallas, we actually did a real happy hour and had 20 patrons get together, and we just all went to a bar and had drinks and hung out. Isn't this

Michael Jamin:

Crazy? I mean, isn't this crazy?

Max Miller:

It's surreal. Surreal. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

It's so interesting. And when you put up your page, it's such a creative way to make a living. You didn't know any of this when you started your, you been like, I don't know what I'm doing on page. And then you just figured out what my Paton account was going to be.

Max Miller:

Yeah, no, I mean, I actually had to have a viewer tell me about Patreon. I didn't know about it. And they were like, you should be doing this. And I was like, oh, okay. And there's been a lot of that. I've actually learned a lot from my viewers. It's interesting. Patrons and non patrons. I say that when people give me critiques, I don't often take 'em, but sometimes I do. Especially early on. There was one person who wrote me an email, and it was really critical. And it was really long it, it was absolutely in the spirit of, I know how you can do this better. But

Michael Jamin:

It was also unsolicited.

Max Miller:

It was unsolicited. I had only been doing it for two months. It broke my heart. It was horrible. And yet, I thank that person so much because everything that person said was spot on, and I put those into practice and it made the show all the better. So even when it's unsolicited, even when it's mean-spirited, he was not at all. But even when it is mean spirited, that doesn't mean that they're wrong. And so sometimes you've got to listen and say, Hey, maybe I can improve in this way. And then sometimes you got to say, screw you. And it's knowing what to take and what not to take. That is honestly the hard part because

Michael Jamin:

How did he know? What was the basis for his expertise when he gave you his opinion?

Max Miller:

I have no idea. Right. I honestly have no idea. Was he just someone who watched a lot of videos or was he someone who made videos? I kind of feel like he was someone who made videos or was maybe someone who had been in directing or editing, because his advice was very technical. It was stuff that if you had never been involved in being on camera or watching people on camera, you wouldn't know. And then some of it was storytelling. I mean, it was lengthy. I think if I had printed out, it would've been seven or eight pages.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting.

Max Miller:

And he was spot on. And I've had plenty of other people be spot on about things. And then sometimes, most of the times they're not, most of the times they don't know what they're talking about. Like I said, they have no expertise or whatever. And then there are times where it's like, yes, you're right. But doing that would either be too expensive or too laborious or all sorts of things. I mean, you get things, people being like, you should redo your kitchen.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, yeah.

Max Miller:

Oh, okay.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Thanks.

Max Miller:

I'm going to be, but not because you told me. Right.

Michael Jamin:

But if you do, that's going to shut down your chae for a couple months.

Max Miller:

Yeah, I'm trying to figure that out. I might end up going and filming at all my friends' kitchens. So for two months you'll get an episode in different kitchens.

Michael Jamin:

That's a good idea. If your friends, they're up for it, but

Max Miller:

They've all

Michael Jamin:

Agreed. And would you put them in it too, or no? Too hard?

Max Miller:

No, probably not. Yeah, it's too hard.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. It's so interesting when you talk about Patreon, because people have asked me, are you going to do that as well? It just seems like another thing I have to think about and almost another burden I have to worry about. Once a month, I got to worry about once. What else am I going to give people? What am I going to mail people? What magnet it is something to think about. And then I felt like, is this going to be a burden on me? I'm worried about burdens.

Max Miller:

Yeah, no, I get it. And I think if I was where I'm at today, I probably wouldn't start at Patreon, really, because are you doing it for, you need the income or are you doing it for other reasons? And so that's the question.

Michael Jamin:

Well, the question is really, and I'm sure you think about this, it's like you're building a fan base. You're building your tribe of people who will support whatever project you do next, whatever. You don't know what your next thing is going to be five years from now. But it's great to have a super fan base and Exactly. And that's kind of, I mean, is that the reason why you have a Patreon? I mean,

Max Miller:

That's why I have one. And honestly, so when I do get those mean comments, or when I get down on myself and a video doesn't perform well or any reason, I have my Patreon patrons who are there to boost me up and give me, because like, oh, this video didn't do well or whatever. But it's like, but these people support me so much that they are willing to part with their dollars to support me. And it is not just about the money. It is about their fervor. But are

Michael Jamin:

You checking in with them once? I mean, other than the monthly call, are you checking in with them on a daily basis or what are

Max Miller:

You No, not daily. I post on there and everything, and I'm trying to get better and nurture that a little bit more. One thing I'm trying to do, especially in the new year, is have more ways to connect without my making more actual content. And that is going to be with the cookbook. And so we're figuring out ways where I can show them a bit more of the behind the scenes of

Michael Jamin:

People like that. Do you have a newsletter as well?

Max Miller:

No, I don't. I'm actually, I'm almost ready to finally hit publish on my website that I've been working on forever and ever. And there'll be a newsletter, a way to sign up, even though there is no newsletter at the moment, because it just comes down to I have no minutes in the day, so I'm always having to choose. It's like, do I want to start a podcast or do I want to work on more videos? Or do I want to do more shorts for YouTube and TikTok and Instagram? I can't do it all. Do I want to write another cookbook? I can't do it all. So I'm having to pick and choose, though. A podcast is something I would like to do in the new year as well.

Michael Jamin:

And a cooking podcast or no? Or just a new No, what would it be?

Max Miller:

It would be more history focused. All the history that I can't talk about on the show, because I can't figure out a way to tie it into food. It would be more of that and more conversational, not quite as produced, not as scripted. More telling a story, interviews, talking to other historians, to people who are in it. Episodes where me and my brother who can just talk forever. We each read some history book and then just kevech about it for an hour. So that's what I want to do. And that again, is more about building community, giving people more of that stuff without, it's less about the money and more just about building that audience

Michael Jamin:

And hopefully, yeah, so you're doing it the right way, obviously. Who would've thought, I mean, when I look at your two millions subscribers, that's nuts, man. I mean, you understand that. A lot of TV shows that don't get a fraction of that. They don't get a fraction.

Max Miller:

I was talking to someone recently who has straddled the world of YouTube and television, and YouTube is still, social media rather, is still very much kind of the redheaded stepchild and it's traditional publishing. And traditional TV gets so much more clout, but this is actually where the dollars are, and this is where the community and the fan base is. This is still important, but he was like, do I put in two years of working on a TV show or do I put in two months of working on more YouTube videos? And the end result ends up being pretty much the same. And I own this. Netflix owns this.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting, because I was talking to a very big YouTuber who I know well a couple of weeks ago, who was pursuing, he's huge on YouTube and was pursuing some TV opportunities. Why am I doing this? It's just for validation. It's not for money, it's not for creativity, it's not for control. It's just for some stupid validation that I'll never get. Anyway. So how am I doing it?

Max Miller:

It's absolutely true. I mean, it's funny with the cookbook, you don't make a ton of money in cookbook sales unless you're Martha Stewart. But lemme tell you, my parents were far more impressed that I had published a cookbook, really, than my YouTube channel, because there's still a place for it. It is still important, and there is still that kind of legacy media thing about it. And I'm glad I did it because now I have a book that will get to always sit physically on a shelf, even if all digital stuff dies away from Solar Flare, that book will still be on the show.

Michael Jamin:

Do you have any worry though, because algorithms change every second, people's accounts get shut down. I mean, everything changes in a dime. Is that any concern of yours?

Max Miller:

I'm always stressing about it because I stress less about the algorithm changing, even though it could absolutely happen and views drop by 90% happens to other channels all the time. Personally, I'm more worried about me burning out and that happening. But I do worry about channel being taken over or faulty copyright claims, and there are ways to combat against that, but even some of the biggest creators have fallen pre to it. And so it's kind of like, I don't know. But yeah, stress about it all the time.

Michael Jamin:

You do. I mean, obviously the answer is get on your own platform or not be agnostic to platform, but obviously you have ones that do better than others. So what are you going to do about that?

Max Miller:

Yeah, I mean, obviously YouTube is really where I'm entrenched, but I am trying to make, that's one reason why I'm trying to work on the short form content, get a bigger following on Instagram and TikTok. So if something happens, I can put out a blast and say, Hey, I'm still here. There's just, I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, it's not as easy as people think it is, and that's why people give up. And I think that's the good news, because it leaves more space for people like you who don't give up. Yeah,

Max Miller:

I mean, and the cool thing is everybody, I remember when I started the channel, I watched a lot of videos on how to start a YouTube channel,

Michael Jamin:

Really.

Max Miller:

And I remember so many people then were saying, YouTube is saturated. There is no more room. Who's on YouTube is on YouTube, and nobody more can get in. And obviously that's not true. And something, it's like it always grows. It's like the goldfish. It just will grow to fill whatever.

Michael Jamin:

It's interesting because I've been on YouTube for a long time. I get very little traction on it. On TikTok, I'm pretty big. But YouTube, no one seems to care.

Max Miller:

Well, and that's the thing on TikTok, I can't usually get people to watch most of my videos. It works on YouTube. I'll have one thing that works really well on Instagram, but not on TikTok and vice versa. So when I say there's no space on YouTube, I think there absolutely is, because there are new channels hitting a million subscribers every day. But there are so many more venues. There is TikTok. There wasn't five years ago, TikTok really was very, very small. And now it's huge. And so there are just always new things coming. So if you put out good content, people I think will watch it is just they got to find it. And that usually is what takes time.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I was talking to Taylor Lorenz who wrote a book on the history of influencers and stuff. There's many people who they prank videos on TikTok or YouTube or whatever, and those poor people burn out real fast because they have to constantly one up themselves, whatever this prank was today, the next one's got to be bigger. And then it's like they're destroying their lives because they have to. But you don't have to do that. You just have to come up with another recipe.

Max Miller:

I'm lucky in that because, yeah, I was just watching a video where it's like, why is every YouTube video the most we did every blah, blah, blah? It's because it's always, it's the Mr. Beast ification. It's like got to get bigger and bigger and bigger. But as long as there's history that I haven't covered, and there always will be, and food that I haven't covered, and there pretty much always will be. I've got stuff. So I think that before I run out of ideas, I will run out of me. I will burn out before that happens. Or not burn out, but get bored and just not enjoy it anymore. And the moment I don't enjoy it anymore,

Michael Jamin:

People may not realize that even the thumbnails on YouTube, there's a lot of thought that people put on thumbnails, and usually they're crazy and you don't do that. Your thumbnails are classy looking. But at some point, you must've experimented with crazy thumbnails at some point.

Max Miller:

I haven't gone super crazy, and this is going to sound really ridiculous. The problem with the channel growing as fast as it did meant that I didn't get a lot of time to experiment, really. By the time my videos between the second video and now they haven't changed in format at all, really. Well,

Michael Jamin:

It works.

Max Miller:

It works, which is great. But there are things that I would've probably changed to make it more, to make it better or whatever, but I can't change some things now because the audience just loves it so much. And now it's just kind of, but do you really feel that?

Michael Jamin:

What would happen if you experimented? You're worried about losing them?

Max Miller:

Not so much worried about losing them. It's more I'm a collector, and so if I change too much, then it's like, well, this one doesn't belong in the collection. I have a few live streams on my channel, and I don't even count them as videos because Well, it's not in the format. So

Michael Jamin:

That's more than your thing though.

Max Miller:

Yeah, it's my thing. But also if I were to start over again, I wouldn't have an eight second opening title scenes. That is YouTube death.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it is, but it's not. That's part of what makes it look like a TV show, by the way.

Max Miller:

Yeah, no, it works. I mean, it does work, but it is kind of like, gosh, what would've happened if I hadn't had that eight seconds? But it's not enough to, since it is working, it's like, well, why change

Michael Jamin:

It?

Max Miller:

And whenever I've really experimented with thumbnails and tried to change it, I haven't noticed that they've done better, a lot better or worse, partly because my channel is a little bit more, A lot of people are like, this feels like an old PBS show. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

It's classier. Yeah,

Max Miller:

It's classier. And so I'm like, I don't think the thumbnail where I'm on there going would really, you're not going to, because the video is not going to deliver on that. That's not what the video is. And so then it is clickbait, and I hate that. So are they the best? No. But do they work? Yes. And I'm fine.

Michael Jamin:

Do you talk to other or a lot of other creators, and do you think a lot about this or you are a little silo and you stick to what you do?

Max Miller:

I'm very much in my little silo. I mean, I think about it all the time, but I don't talk to many other creators about it. I do have a handful, especially in the last year since I've been traveling that I've gotten to meet. But part of the thing has been that they do have big teams. I've made friends with Josh on Mythical Kitchen, who's amazing, and he puts out so much fun stuff. But that's a big group because part of the good mythical

Michael Jamin:

Morning

Max Miller:

Production world. So when I've gone to film stuff, there's a dozen people behind the camera. They've got seven cameras and lighting in a studio, and writers and editors and everything. So it's hard to talk inside baseball with him about all aspects because he's not involved in all aspects and other people who aren't involved in all aspects. So it's kind of like, all right, who does their own thumbnails? I can talk to them. Who does their editing? Oh, I can talk to them. So that's kind of the problem with being a solo creator. There are plenty of us out there. I haven't met all that many. But

Michael Jamin:

Even in terms of navigating your career or navigating trolls or anything, I'm surprised you don't have. Yeah,

Max Miller:

No, I mean, I'm not as social as I probably should be. So there aren't many people that I talk to on a regular basis. And not creators, I mean just people in general. A handful of friends, none of whom are in this field who I talk to. I talk more about board games than I do anything else. What we do, we play board games, or most of my friends who are close do more what you do. They're professional TV writers. And so I can talk to them about writing and storytelling, which has been a huge help. But thumbnails not so much.

Michael Jamin:

It's so interesting. Well, max Miller, thank you so much for joining me. I think you're a huge inspiration. I think what you've done is so, I know you're rolling your eyes, but I think it's so admirable. Thank you. Like I said, in my pocket, I just like to talk to people who invent themselves, which is what you've done. You have invented yourself, and you have not asked for permission. You just did it. And all these, you put the energy out and great things have come from it. I'm not a cooking guy, and I like your videos. I just think it's wonderful what you do. So I couldn't cook any, I can't make a sandwich, but thank you so much. But yeah, so everyone should go. Is your handle the same everywhere on all your channels? Pretty much

Max Miller:

Tasting history with Max Miller, except on Twitter, where I think it's tasting history one.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, it has to be short. Yeah, Twitter is short. Everyone go follow him. Go check out his channel. It's such an interesting, I imagine you're going to have some great Christmas content coming up because to, yes. Sure. Great. Max, thank you so much. Don't go anywhere. Thank you for joining me and everyone be inspired by this guy. Keep creating for more. Keep following me next week and keep creating. Alright,

So now we all know what the hell Michael Jamin is talking about. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for my free monthly webinars @michaeljamin.com/webinar. And if you found this podcast helpful or entertaining, please share it with a friend and consider leaving us a five star review on iTunes that really, really helps. For more of this, whatever the hell this is, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. And you can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane and music was composed by Anthony Rizzo. And remember, you can have excuses or you can have a creative life, but you can't have both. See you next week.

On this week's episode, I have influencer/creator expert Taylor Lorenz. Tune in as we talk about her book, “Extremely Online: The Untold Story Of Fame, Influence, And Power On The Internet” as well as her experiences working as a journalist for “The Washington Post” and “The New York Times”. We also dive into some tidbits she has about social media.

Taylor Lorenz on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/taylorlorenz/?hl=en

Taylor Lorenz on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@taylorlorenz?lang=en

Taylor Lorenz on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCp38w5n099xkvoqciOaeFag

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

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Taylor Lorenz:

These old school entertainment people come on and they don't really understand the app and they clearly are not doing it themselves. They have some content assistant and then they're like, Hey kids, I guess I have to be here now. And it's like, what are you doing here? I will say the musicians do a better job. Megan Trainor has Chris Olsson, but TikTok buddy that, and music is such a part of TikTok, I feel like they get a warmer reception.

Michael Jamin:

You're listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity, I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts.

Hey everyone, what the hell? It's Michael Jamin talking about today. I'm going to tell you what I'm talking about. So for those of you who have been listening for a long time, I'm always telling you, just put your work out there. Get on social media, start making a name for yourself, because whether you want to be an actor or a writer or director, you got to bring more to the table than just your desire to get a big paycheck and become rich and famous. If you can bring a market, if you can bring your audience you're going to bring, that brings a lot to the table. And so my next guest is an expert on this, and she's the author of Extremely Online, the Untold Story of Fame, influence and Power on the Internet. I'm holding up her book. If you're watching this podcast, if you're driving in the car, you can imagine that there's a book and has a cover. So please welcome, pull over your car and give a round of applause to Taylor Lorenz. Thank you Taylor for coming and joining me for talking about this. It's an honor meeting you finally.

Taylor Lorenz:

Yeah, likewise. Excited to be here.

Michael Jamin:

So you wrote this great book, which I read, and there's so much, I guess there's so much. You actually document the history starting from the beginning of mommy bloggers and all these people who kind of were at the forefront and then built a name for themselves on social media. And so I'm just hoping to talk to you about how we can take some of this information and apply it to the people who listen to my podcast and follow me on social media so that they can help do the same. So I guess starting from the beginning, what was interesting that you pointed out is that women were kind of at the forefront at this whole thing. You want to talk about that a little bit?

Taylor Lorenz:

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I talk about this in the book, but in the turn of the millennium, the early aughts, this blogging was taking off and there were tons of blogs, and I talk about some of the big political and tech blogs at the time, but it wasn't really until the mommy bloggers entered onto the internet in the early aughts who were these moms, these stay at home moms that really had nothing else to do. A lot of them were shut out of the labor market, and they turned to blogging and ended up really building their own kind of feminist media empires by building audiences. And they were the first to really cultivate strong personal brands online and then leverage those personal brands to monetize.

Michael Jamin:

And you're right about, I remember this may have been 10 years ago or maybe longer, one of my friends, our screenwriter, she developed a TV show on these mommy bloggers. And I'm like, wait a minute. And there was a couple of people who did that. Max Nik, who was a guest on my podcast a while, a couple weeks ago, same thing. He wrote a show based on shit my dad says, but it's on a Twitter feed and there's all these people. It's so interesting. I was a little late to the game in terms of Hollywood exploiting all these markets, these people who are making names for themselves. Lemme back up for a second though. Why did you decide to even write this book?

Taylor Lorenz:

Yeah, so I started covering this. I started as a blogger myself a little bit later.

Michael Jamin:

What were you blogging?

Taylor Lorenz:

I was blogging about my life, a lot, about my life and a lot of about online culture stuff. I thought that the mainstream media was really bad at covering the internet, and so I thought, I'm going to write about the internet. This was when I was young millennial, right out of college.

Michael Jamin:

You were writing about your personal life?

Taylor Lorenz:

Yes.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. So that's a whole different thing. You're opening yourself up to everything. And was there any, I know I'm jumping around here, I guess I have so many questions, but I don't know, was there backlash from that? Were there repercussions? Because we're talking about people do this. What's the backlash?

Taylor Lorenz:

Well, this was like 2009, so it was such a different internet, and I'm so grateful, honestly, that I was blogging in that era and not this era because I think I didn't get a lot of backlash. I had a great community. I met some of my best friends, were other bloggers from that era. I became very popular on Tumblr for my single serving like meme, like blogs. So yeah, I think when you're young, you're just kind of trying a lot of different things out. I didn't know what I wanted to do out of college. I'd never studied journalism. I didn't know I was working at a call center and just became popular on the internet and then was like, I guess I'm pretty good at this

Michael Jamin:

Stuff. Really? I didn't know that about it. You have a pretty big following on TikTok and Instagram as well, which is so weird because you're writing about something that you are also participating in. I mean, it's almost meta how you are, what you're talking about. No,

Taylor Lorenz:

Yeah. I mean, I started, had I been able to monetize my blog nowadays, content creators on TikTok, they can monetize in 2009, 2010, couldn't, the best that you could hope for was one of those book deals that Urban Outfitters. Right?

Michael Jamin:

But

Taylor Lorenz:

You couldn't really leverage it into much. I ended up just leveraging it into a career in media, which has been fun. But

Michael Jamin:

See, this is what's interesting to me because right now you see so many people on social media, how do I monetize this? Meaning ads or even sponsorships, but there's other ways to monetize outside of brand deals or views on YouTube getting used. So yeah, there's a whole, I don't know. Do you think that's a large percentage of people on the internet? It seems like to me most are doing it to monetize for the brand deals. What's your take on it?

Taylor Lorenz:

Yeah, I think now that you can monetize in that way, a lot of people, that's their end goal. I'm kind of glad. I mean, it's a double-edged sword. Who knows what I could have done if I was able to monetize, but I'm really glad actually that you couldn't, because I think myself and a lot of other bloggers, we ended up going in a lot of different ways and entering into a lot of media type of jobs that, yeah, I mean would've never gotten otherwise. And I've learned how to be a journalist and I've gotten all these opportunities and my whole career from just experimenting and having fun online. So yeah, I think I always tell people, it's great if you can monetize, get the bag. If somebody comes to you offering you thousands of dollars, why not? But I think it's really good to take that virality and leverage it into, I like what Kayla Scanlan does, or Kyla, she's the economics YouTuber, and she gives all these talks about econ now, and she has a newsletter, and she's able to just do a lot more. It's not just doing a bunch of brand deals online. It's like using it to launch a career and whatever you want to have a career in.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, see, I see. That's the funny, I think it's so smart what you're saying. I see some people, I'm like wondering, what's your end game out of this? Is it just to, but what you're saying is the end game, it's interesting. The end game is to do something else. And I wonder if that's what's going on with Hollywood people when I'm encouraging people to, I don't know, put theirselves out there with their art, their writing their music or whatever in my mind, to build an audience following to basically, so you can do the next thing. But I'm wondering how often that if you see that happening for people,

Taylor Lorenz:

I think the smart ones do recognize it. I feel like the internet, you're just hopping from lily pad to lily pad a lot of the time, which I know that's how a lot of creative people feel. It's just like, I think internet fame in itself can be a goal. I mean, look, someone like Mr. Beast, you've done it. You crack the code. Most people are not going to reach that level. And so it makes a lot of sense. If you're really into food, you're making food content, use that to open your own restaurant or food line or whatever, but use it to go into something that you're interested in because then you still, you always have that online audience. I still have my online audience. I have people that have followed me for a decade and maybe they know me from my blog or I had a Snapchat show in 2016 or things that I've done over the years, but it's always in service of my broader career.

Michael Jamin:

And so Well, maybe tell me what that is. Do you have a broader goal ahead of all this? Other than getting a book, which is pretty impressive.

Taylor Lorenz:

I know. I never thought I would write a book. And then just, there was a lot of revisionist history once the pandemic hit in 2021 and all these venture capitalists were pouring money into the content creator world, and TikTok was taking off. People were just kind of like, they were rewriting history. And I was like, I'm going to write the definitive history. I've been around for this. And I always thought it would be interesting to write a book. I didn't know anything about the publishing industry, except I have a couple friends that did those Urban Outfitters type

Michael Jamin:

Books. That's so funny.

Taylor Lorenz:

See,

Michael Jamin:

Oh, go ahead. I don't cut you off. So your broader goals. Oh, yeah.

Taylor Lorenz:

I love media. I love media. I want to keep working in media. I love creative sort of endeavors. I like writing. I make videos as I am very obsessed with news media, so I want

Michael Jamin:

To, right. So maybe more of that. There's a couple of things in that book, in your book that kind of took me a little bit by surprise. One is there are, well, first of all, I think there are people who make content. This is just my opinion, their content's a little disposable. And so you spoke about people who, I don't know, it's like pranksters who they got to keep upping the prank until it comes to a point where this one woman you're talking about, she was sick to her stomach with the pressure of having to come up with something all the time. And to me, it felt like that's because you're making, I guess I have a rule. I have a rule. I was like, I don't want to spend more than 10 minutes a day on this. But there are people who spend on posting, but there are people who put way a lot of time and pressure on this, and it winds up destroying themselves, don't you think?

Taylor Lorenz:

Oh, a hundred percent. I mean, there's a whole bunch of that in my book of just the burnout. And I think, like you said, it comes from just making content for content's sake and feeling like it's an extra burden and giving it, it's also when it's your whole livelihood, the stakes become higher. That's why I say you should diversify a little bit.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. There was another, the thing that really surprised me that I learned from your book, because I'm a little older, so I don't really know all this stuff, but there's a whole culture of content creators who their job is just to talk shit about other content creators.

Taylor Lorenz:

And I'm like,

Michael Jamin:

Oh my God. And I've witnessed some of this stuff, but I didn't realize it's really a thing, like a gossip. They're just gossipers, right?

Taylor Lorenz:

Yeah. They basically have replaced tabloid news for the internet, and yeah, it's a huge drama channel industrial complex online that you're lucky if you've not encountered.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. And do they go anywhere with, what do you think is the end game for them?

Taylor Lorenz:

Well, I mean, the woman that runs DUIs, which is more of a blind item, celebrity news page, she has a podcast. She also, she wrote a novel kind of based around the content. Others like Diet Prada have really successful newsletters. A lot of the other commentators like Keemstar and stuff, their goal is just to basically run these media empires of gossip, kind of like a TMZ for the internet.

Michael Jamin:

And then how are they further monetizing though?

Taylor Lorenz:

They monetize through partnerships and brand deals and a lot through YouTube ads. They get a lot of views. A lot of them get a lot of views on YouTube.

Michael Jamin:

See, I just turned, maybe I'm crazy, but I turned down a brand deal today because I thought, I don't know, it doesn't align with anything that I stand for. And I was like, am I crazy for turning this down? Or I don't know. But have you get approached by things that, are you turning stuff down?

Taylor Lorenz:

Well, yeah, I have to turn down so much stuff. I'll never forget a tech company, which I will not name, offered me $60,000 to do three video, three audio chat rooms for them.

Michael Jamin:

What is an audio chat room?

Taylor Lorenz:

Like? A live chat type thing? It was going to be like three hours of work. And obviously I couldn't do it because I can't take on sponsored content. I'm a journalist. You can't do that, especially not with a tech company. But I have to say that one really made me question my career choices. Normally people are like, can you promote X, Y, Z? And I explained that I don't do.

Michael Jamin:

So there's nothing that you can promote a journalist. There's nothing.

Taylor Lorenz:

I mean, I could theoretically probably promote companies that I don't cover, but I don't really want to, I don't need to make $500 promoting a mop.

Michael Jamin:

Right, right. Yeah, it's so interesting. You have to protect what you, it's so odd because I don't see a lot of people making brand when I'm scrolling through my pages for you a page on TikTok, I don't see a lot of people making brand deals, but I guess they are, right? Am I not seeing it?

Taylor Lorenz:

Yeah, the branded content doesn't always live on TikTok. A lot of times they'll create whitelisted content that the brand then promotes in a TikTok ad.

Michael Jamin:

Wait, when you say white, okay, explain this to me. So whitelisted means the creator. Go ahead.

Taylor Lorenz:

The creator creates branded content, but it doesn't necessarily live on their feed. They create it for the brand, and then the brand will use that video they made to the creator, like, wow, I love my air stick selfie thing. They'll run ads. So it's using that creator's likeness in the ad. It's the video that they made, but you're not going to see it on their page. You're going to see it in the,

Michael Jamin:

But do they not put it on their page or you're not going to see it? No one's going to watch it.

Taylor Lorenz:

Sometimes they do put it on their page, sometimes they don't. I mean, all of these are negotiated in the terms of the ad deals, which are structured increasingly in complicated ways. But I mean, there's a lot of spun con on TikTok. Also, sometimes there's product placement on TikTok. You'll see people doing videos with certain products. Sometimes the products have paid to be in their,

Michael Jamin:

And they have to mention this, right? They have to, I wasn't aware of this, but theoretically, yes, theoretically. But you're saying they don't always mention it. They don't always say, this is

Taylor Lorenz:

The sponsor. So the FTC says Yes, and I write about that decision in 2017 when they had to do that. The thing is that a lot of times they can get away with not saying it because it's not directly sponsored. For instance, you could have a long-term, year long partnership with the brand. They could be giving you tons of free product, but they didn't directly pay you for that post. So you feel like, oh, I don't have to disclose it,

Michael Jamin:

But they paid you for something. I mean, that doesn't make sense. They paid you. It's totally great. Okay. Yeah. But

Taylor Lorenz:

People get around it by kind of fudging things.

Michael Jamin:

Who would get in trouble then if they got caught? The brand, not the TikTok or whatever.

Taylor Lorenz:

Not really. I mean, they went after Kim Kardashian. If you're that level, they'll go after you. But normally they're going after the brands. The brands are usually doing this. And also it's ultimately the brand or the agency that's running the marketing campaign that's up. It's up to them to enforce it and be like, Hey, put this in your caption.

Michael Jamin:

You said something else that surprised me in your book is that at one point, maybe it's still this way that the agencies are making the money and many of the creators are not getting that money. Explain to me what happens. I read it twice. It's like, wait, I'm missing something. So

Taylor Lorenz:

There's been this explosion in sort of middlemen agencies, management companies that have come in. And what they do is they find these up and coming creators, they sign them into contracts like, Hey, I'll handle all your spun con, or I'll come in and do this deal. And then they take a huge portion, the brand pays maybe a hundred thousand dollars for a campaign. The agency will come in and take 50% of that or something, and then the rest goes to the creators. They allocate it, so

Michael Jamin:

They're getting something. You could

Taylor Lorenz:

Argue that they are providing a service, and that's true, but the less ethical agencies are less upfront about the amount that they're taking.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting. Oh, they don't tell you how much it is? Probably,

Taylor Lorenz:

Yeah. They won't tell you what the brand originally paid. They'll just say, oh, it's $10,000 for this campaign. Nevermind that we got a hundred thousand dollars from the actual

Michael Jamin:

Brand. Oh, wow. Yeah. There's so much to be careful. There really is. And so I asked you a little bit earlier if you knew of many. Okay, so I'll let give you an example from my experience. So I did a show, I don't know, maybe 10 years ago, maybe not maybe 10. And the studio, we had a cast a role, and the studio wanted to get an influencer to play the part because this influencer had a bigger audience than the network had. And he turned it down several times because the money, he was going to paid a lot of money, but the money wasn't worth it to him. He was making more on a daily, which I was shocked about. And so do you know more? Can you speak more to that?

Taylor Lorenz:

That happens all the time. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Really?

Taylor Lorenz:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

I thought this guy was crazy, but okay, go on.

Taylor Lorenz:

Well, I mean, for a lot of content creators, their goal, it depends on the content creators. Some content creators, their goal is to get into Hollywood, and that would be an amazing opportunity for them. But especially the ones at the upper echelon, they're already the a-list of the internet. They're making millions of dollars. They really don't need to engage. And maybe it's a fun thing if they want to do it, and they have time and it's like a novelty type thing, or it adds some sort of legitimacy to them. But a lot of times, if they're spending, for instance, hours on a set, that's money out of their pocket that they could be making a lot. So it kind of doesn't make sense. And people have struggled. Not every content creator succeeds as well. So I think some of them do have that feeling of like, look, I'm really good at this. I know I'm really good at this. I'm making money. Do I want to gamble? Take time away from that. Try my hand at this thing that maybe I have and succeeded at before. It's not always there.

Michael Jamin:

Maybe I shouldn't even ask this on as we're being recorded. Do you know this guy, nurse Blake? Have you heard of him?

Taylor Lorenz:

I don't think so. Wait,

Michael Jamin:

Okay. Because I can't tell if he's a comedian or a nurse, but whatever he is, he's selling out arenas.

Taylor Lorenz:

Oh, I know this guy. I've seen him before. Yes. He's a comedian, right?

Michael Jamin:

Well, he doesn't act, but I also see him also posting in the hospital. It seems like he could be selling out arenas, but also he likes doing the rounds or something. I don't know. Yeah.

Taylor Lorenz:

So it's so funny. I don't know when you joined TikTok, but the earliest content creators on TikTok back in 2018, when it flipped from musically to TikTok, the earliest groups of content creators that emerged were police officers, nurses and service workers. And they were all gaining huge audiences. And I think it's because those jobs have an enormous amount of downtime, and they kind of almost have interesting stages themselves. They're always in the hospital or at Walmart working or whatever. And so there's a lot of people like that on social media that have kind of pivoted their career in that way to,

Michael Jamin:

Okay. I've been on a TikTok for maybe two and a half years, and at first I was very self-conscious. I was like, isn't this the app where teenage girls shuffle dance? Am I going to be the creepy guy on this app? And you're saying, it's so hard to tell. I mean, the first time, my first week and a half of posts were like this, this is cringey.

Taylor Lorenz:

They always say, you know what? My favorite quote is that I think all the time Xavier from Party Shirt said this, that everything is cringe until it gets views. And I think that's

Michael Jamin:

True. Until it gets

Taylor Lorenz:

It's popular. It's not cringe anymore,

Michael Jamin:

I guess. So when you first started posting, did you look to anyone for, I don't know, to emulate?

Taylor Lorenz:

Yeah. I mean, there's this woman, Katie nais, who's still hilarious internet person, and she's a blogger too. She ended up working at Buzzfeed for a decade. I always just wanted to be like her. She was so creative and funny. She had this website called, I think it was called Party something. She would aggregate really funny party photos, and she just was really good at finding funny things on the internet.

Michael Jamin:

And do you know, have you reached out to her?

Taylor Lorenz:

Yeah, now I'm friends with her because I've been obsessed with her for my whole career. So she

Michael Jamin:

Very really, so now you have a friendship with her. That's nice. Do you get recognized a lot when you're out and about?

Taylor Lorenz:

Not in la. No one gives a shit about me in la.

Michael Jamin:

But when you're out somewhere else, if I'm not

Taylor Lorenz:

VidCon or something, yeah, usually. I mean, I got recognized in DC on my book tour when I was eating. That was cool. But yeah, sometimes, I mean, when I was doing my Snapchat show, I got recognized a lot more, I think, because a lot of kids were seeing me on the Snapchat Discover Channel thing.

Michael Jamin:

I was on your link tree, you're everywhere, but are you active on every, I'm like, damn. She's on every platform.

Taylor Lorenz:

I'm an equal opportunity poster. Well, I mean, I cover this world, so I kind of feel obligated to be on everything. I definitely think Instagram and TikTok are my main ones. And then I have threads also now,

Michael Jamin:

Which I, are you making different content you posting? Are you reposting or posting brand new stuff? Everywhere.

Taylor Lorenz:

I repost. If I make a short video for TikTok, I repost it on reels and YouTube shorts. YouTube's always the one that I like. I'm so lazy about, honestly,

Michael Jamin:

It's hard to grow on YouTube. It's so

Taylor Lorenz:

Hard to grow, and I don't know, it's just like there's something demoralizing about YouTube.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting.

Taylor Lorenz:

But yeah, I think it's because it's like, you know how it is, it's like you post something, you get a hundred thousand views on TikTok, it's doing really well on Instagram. And then you go on YouTube and it's like me, 2000 views, and you're like, oh, I'm a

Michael Jamin:

Failure. What's the point of that? And you were blocked. Are you still blocked from Twitter or whatever? Twitter is?

Taylor Lorenz:

Yeah. Elon banned me for a while. I did get back on. I don't really, Twitter is dead to me, honestly.

Michael Jamin:

What did you do to get banned?

Taylor Lorenz:

I was, well, he banned me under this rule that he made that said you couldn't promote your links to other social media profiles. And I was promoting my Instagram account, so that's what he technically banned me under. But what he really banned me for is that I reached out to him for comment. I wrote a story about how he completely lied about a bunch of stuff, and I reached out to him for comment. And the minute I reached out to him for comment, I got banned. And then he tried to say, oh, it was actually because she was promoting her Instagram. No,

Michael Jamin:

That was Oh, interesting. So do you think he was guy, do you, you made it he enemy. He responds. He knows who you are and hates you.

Taylor Lorenz:

Yeah. Oh, he definitely, yes. I mean, I've interacted with him somewhat frequent basis, but that week I was not the only journalist that was banned for reporting on him. So the same week, drew Harwell, my colleague was banned, and then a bunch of people from the New York Times, we all got banned within a week, so

Michael Jamin:

Wow. Back

Taylor Lorenz:

On.

Michael Jamin:

And then they let you back on. Interesting. And then you're, screw this.

Taylor Lorenz:

But yeah, Twitter is also just very toxic and political, and I think culture is happening more on TikTok.

Michael Jamin:

Don't you think they're all toxic?

Taylor Lorenz:

Oh, totally. But I think Twitter's uniquely toxic. TikTok is toxic in a different way.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. I want to know what you think the differences are in each platform, because I have opinions, but Okay. Yeah. What are your differences? I mean,

Taylor Lorenz:

Twitter is just very political, and it's political in a way that there's a lot of, especially as a member of the media, it's like there's a lot of journalists on there. I think it's a giant group chat for a lot of media people. It's stressful. Editors, bosses are on there. I don't really use it. I use it to keep up with, I'm super immunocompromised, and so I keep up with Covid News on there. It's really the only thing I use it for. It's really hard to get news and information because Elon has sort of made so many changes to make it hard to get news on there. So I don't mess with Twitter. TikTok I love. But yeah, I mean, TikTok is just mob mentality. So I mean, I'll never forget. I defended, do you remember West Elm Caleb?

Michael Jamin:

No. And it's so funny when you say these names. I'm like, these ridiculous names. I'm like, no, I don't know that comic book character.

Taylor Lorenz:

Okay, well, west Elm Caleb a year and a half ago was getting canceled on TikTok. He was a guy that ghosted a bunch of people. He ghosted a bunch of women, and a bunch of women went on TikTok, like, this guy's a ghoster. And it got so crazy that he got fully doxxed and fired from his job. And anyway, I defended him and I was like, Hey guys, can we calm down a little bit? We haven't even heard this guy's side of the story. I believe he shouldn't be an asshole to women, but I've been doxxed. It sucks. Don't do that. And TikTok, they came for me hard on that one. They were like, no,

Michael Jamin:

No,

Taylor Lorenz:

Somebody from West Tom, Caleb.

Michael Jamin:

And then, yeah. How worried are you about, I worry about that. How worried about you getting haters and stuff?

Taylor Lorenz:

I've gotten haters. I write about YouTubers for a living. So if I was worried about haters, it doesn't matter. My friend is a pop music writer, and he was saying, he told me a couple years ago, because if anytime you are covering something with a fandom, you're going to deal with haters. And they're vicious, but a lot of them are 11 years old, or they're just online and they're mad and

Michael Jamin:

Okay. Do you respond to your posts comments on your post? You do.

Taylor Lorenz:

I do. I try to mean, don't try not to respond to haters. Sometimes I'm weak and I do respond to the haters, but no

Michael Jamin:

Good comes of it. Right? When you do, no,

Taylor Lorenz:

No good comes of it. But sometimes you just, I don't know. You just got to, but

Michael Jamin:

Even if you respond with kindness, which I did today to somebody, he just doubled down on his stupidity. They don't care. Why am I trying to,

Taylor Lorenz:

They don't care at all. They're like, fuck you.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah,

Taylor Lorenz:

Yeah. No, it doesn't help. I mean, sometimes if I'm bored, I've replied something, but I mostly just ignore those people, or I limit my comments and I try to keep it to that only my community's engaging and not a bunch of randos. Or if they have a good faith question, I get a lot of story ideas from people commenting. Or sometimes smart people will comment, you click on their profile, you're like, oh, cool. Person's interesting. Right.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. Okay. So you sound emotionally mature about this whole thing? Maybe more than I am because I get upset sometimes.

Taylor Lorenz:

No, trust me, I've had my moments. It's hard. But I think I've just been through it so long. I've been through the cycle so many times that I'm immune.

Michael Jamin:

And do you talk to your colleagues who, I guess, are they as active as you are on, let say on TikTok? No. Other reporters?

Taylor Lorenz:

Journalists are not. It's weird with journalists on TikTok. They're not really, journalists are so addicted to Twitter. Twitter is where everyone in the media is. And there's some journalists on TikTok, but not that many. So the ones that are, I think we all try to support each other,

Michael Jamin:

Or it's just not competitive. Yeah, it's supportive. You think?

Taylor Lorenz:

I try to be supportive. I don't, like somebody said this really early on of Don't compete collab or something. It was like early thing. And I really like that. I felt that with blogging too. I had made friends with a lot of bloggers. We were all in the same group. And it's just like the internet is really vast and everyone is unique. And

Michael Jamin:

There's not too

Taylor Lorenz:

Many internet culture reporters either. So,

Michael Jamin:

Well, that's a question I can't tell how big TikTok is. Sometimes I'll see, oh my God, this creator knows that creator, and they talk whether they stick to each other. I'm like, wow, this is a small place. But then I'm wondering, well, maybe I'm only seeing this wedge of the pie, and it's actually much larger. I can't get a sense of how big this thing is.

Taylor Lorenz:

It is really big. I mean, it's like billions of users, so it's really big. But I do think that in

Michael Jamin:

Terms of the creators though, the

Taylor Lorenz:

Creator community is smaller than you think. And I think the people that are really active, they form a network. And you're always going to get people that are a couple degrees away from people that you follow usually.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Where do you think, I'm certainly not the first person to say this, but during the early days of Instagram, it was always about people. This is the glamorous life. It was all made up. It was like they got sponsored posts to be on a yacht or whatever. They're pretending to be rich and famous or whatever. And because we're all idiots, we're like, wow, they're rich and famous, and they're living that life. And then that somehow evolved to now influences turn to creators, and creators are more authentic. This is my life. Take it or leave it. What do you think there's next? What comes next after that? Do you have any idea? Yeah,

Taylor Lorenz:

I mean, I think we always flip back and forth between aspirational versus authenticity. And people want a little bit of both. People still want the aspirational content. It's just not everything. And I do think that the authenticity is part of the appeal, and I don't think it's going away anytime soon. But yeah, I don't know. I mean, different content formats perform well depending on what the platform is promoting. So right now, they really want long form video. So I think we're going to see people that succeed in long form grow faster.

Michael Jamin:

But do you think when you're posting, maybe you don't even want to answer this on the air. I wouldn't blame you. Are you thinking about, oh, this post will do Well, I should talk about this. I know it'll do well. Or is it like, this is what I'm talking about, take it or leave it?

Taylor Lorenz:

Yeah. It depends on the day. Some days so many times where I'm like, oh, I know this would do well, but I just don't feel like posting today.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, really? Especially

Taylor Lorenz:

Lately, oh my God. There's been so many things where I'm like, oh, that's going to go viral. And then I see somebody else posted and I'm like, good. They got the traffic. You have to be early on something. And then sometimes just most stuff I just post because I think it's interesting, and it's just my taste and news and information and just something I found interesting. But how

Michael Jamin:

Long will you spend on a post? Do you do it again and again until you get it right? No. One take and you're done?

Taylor Lorenz:

Usually, maybe I'll do two or three if I might rerecord something, but I don't take it that seriously. It's just one of many things I'm doing during the day, so not, and especially since I've been on book tour, I've just been too busy to make. I go through periods and it depends on how busy I am, how many videos I'm making.