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Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent open with new evidence on myocarditis risk among vaccinated and unvaccinated young people, revisiting how vaccine-associated myocarditis was amplified while the cardiac and mortality risks of infection were minimized. They then turn to the resurgence of measles, the consequences of falling vaccination rates, and the gap between public-health leadership and the urgency of the moment.

The heart of the episode is a wide-ranging critique of the lab-leak movement. Howard and Orent outline why they believe the available molecular, epidemiological, and geographic evidence supports a zoonotic origin for SARS-CoV-2. They argue that the debate has too often become a political weapon aimed at scientists and public-health officials, while zoonotic spillover, wildlife trade, habitat disruption, and pandemic preparedness receive less attention.

The conversation focuses especially on the contradiction between expressing intense concern about the first infection while partnering with or defending figures who promoted herd immunity through widespread infection. Through discussions of Matt Ridley, Alina Chan, Richard Ebright, Bryce Nickels, Jay Bhattacharya, and others, the hosts describe what they call "toxic apathy": treating the origin of infection number one as paramount while overlooking the preventable infections, hospitalizations, and deaths that followed.

• Why infection itself—not vaccination—was associated with the highest myocarditis, pericarditis, and mortality risk in the study discussed

• How fear-driven messaging about rare vaccine side effects may have shaped decisions among young people and parents

• The expanding measles crisis, falling MMR coverage, and the threat of subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE)

• Why the hosts believe public-health leaders must communicate far more forcefully about measles vaccination

• The molecular, evolutionary, geographic, and epidemiological case the hosts present for zoonotic emergence

• Why secrecy by Chinese authorities does not, by itself, establish that SARS-CoV-2 originated in a laboratory

• How lab-leak advocacy became intertwined with attacks on Anthony Fauci, Francis Collins, and other scientists

• The rhetoric used against researchers who support a zoonotic origin and the consequences of turning a scientific question into a loyalty test

• Matt Ridley's 2020 advocacy for infection-derived herd immunity and the claim that student infections could protect older adults

• Alina Chan's collaboration with Ridley and the hosts' critique of separating origin claims from pandemic-era policy positions

• Why knowing the origin of SARS-CoV-2 would not erase the need to prepare for both laboratory accidents and zoonotic spillover

• The episode's central warning: origin narratives should never become an excuse to abandon mitigation during the next pandemic

The hosts contend that pandemic preparedness requires more than assigning blame for how SARS-CoV-2 first entered the human population. It requires confronting misinformation, protecting people from preventable infection, supporting vaccination, preparing for multiple pathways of emergence, and judging public-health leaders by real-world outcomes.

• CIDRAP reporting on mRNA vaccination and myocarditis risk in teens and young adults

• The Great Barrington Declaration

• Viral: The Search for the Origin of COVID-19 by Alina Chan and Matt Ridley

• Science-Based Medicine

• Centers for Disease Control and Prevention — Measles

We Want Them Infected examines the doctors, academics, pundits, and political movements that promoted widespread infection during the COVID-19 pandemic—and the lasting consequences of those ideas for public health.

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This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and does not constitute medical advice. The views expressed are those of the speakers. Always consult a qualified healthcare professional regarding personal medical decisions.

It's 2026, but according to Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent, some of the most powerful voices in American public health still can't stop relitigating 2020.

In this episode of We Want Them Infected, Jonathan and Wendy break down a series of recent interviews and public appearances featuring Jay Bhattacharya, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Donald Trump, Stephen Miller, and others. They examine claims about the childhood vaccine schedule, splitting the MMR vaccine into separate shots, vaccine safety, measles outbreaks, and the continued effort to blame today's public-health problems on decisions made during the COVID-19 pandemic.

They also revisit Bhattacharya's pandemic-era predictions and contrast them with his current role and responsibilities, including his responses to questions about declining public trust, vaccine misinformation, and the deadly CDC shooting.

Later, Jonathan and Wendy discuss the tragic death of Cambridge professor Jason Arday and the online rhetoric surrounding the story, leading to a broader conversation about "crank magnetism" and how extreme beliefs can cluster together.

• The push to change the childhood vaccine schedule and separate the MMR vaccine
• Stephen Miller's vaccine claims in the Oval Office
• Why Jay Bhattacharya keeps returning to the public-health decisions of 2020
• Bhattacharya's past pandemic predictions versus his current leadership role
• Measles outbreaks, vaccination rates, and public trust
• RFK Jr.'s claims about vaccine safety and Anthony Fauci
• Trump's comments about the volume and timing of childhood vaccines
• The CDC shooting and questions about the consequences of vaccine misinformation
• Bill Cassidy's defense of his decision to support RFK Jr.'s confirmation
• Fauci's diaries and renewed arguments over COVID vaccines and pregnancy
• The death of Jason Arday and the rhetoric that followed
• "Crank magnetism" and the overlap between misinformation and other extreme beliefs

We Want Them Infected examines the ideas, people, and policies that shaped the COVID-19 pandemic and continue to influence public health today. Hosts Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent revisit the claims made by prominent pandemic contrarians and compare them with what happened in the real world.

A major surgical society has invited a former FDA commissioner to headline its clinical congress, introducing him with a bio that lists the bestsellers and the endowed chairs and mentions none of the pandemic-era claims, the accusations leveled at colleagues, or the circumstances of his departure. The hosts read the introduction in full, then read what it leaves out — and use it to make a broader point: the most dangerous thing happening in medicine right now isn't any single false claim, it's the speed with which discredited records are being smoothed over and their authors welcomed back onto main stages.

From there the conversation turns to a widely shared magazine essay arguing that public health should make common cause with the MAHA movement, and to the Substack defense of that essay written by the hosts of a podcast built around cross-divide conversation. The hosts read both at length and take them apart, drawing a distinction they say the "dialogue" camp collapses: how a physician talks with a vaccine-hesitant patient in an exam room is not the same act as platforming movement leaders who have invoked Nuremberg trials and Holocaust imagery against doctors. One is medicine. The other, they argue, launders danger into an intellectual parlor game.

The episode closes on what is being done to scientists in the meantime — a researcher detained at an airport, a retired NIH scientist taken from his home in handcuffs, an 85-year-old former agency director facing hearings whose stated purpose was imprisonment — and on the quieter counter-story: the people who have left the anti-vaccine movement, and the patient, unglamorous outreach that actually changed their minds.

Topics Include

• A surgical society's sanitized introduction of a former FDA commissioner — and everything the bio omits

• The medical-error-as-third-leading-cause-of-death statistic and its origins

• Why records should still be cited after someone leaves power

• Headlines: reported White House pressure on HHS over childhood vaccines; new data on flu vaccine effectiveness against pediatric mortality

• The Atlantic's "Public Health Needs MAHA" essay and the rebuttals from Science-Based Medicine and others

• "Name one hit" — what MAHA has actually delivered on pesticides, food, and chronic disease

• Podcasting as an end in itself: the "Why Should I Trust You?" roster and the ethics of platforming

• Violent rhetoric in the anti-vaccine movement: Nuremberg framing, Holocaust comparisons, and fundraising off both

• Reactionary centrism and the demand that the people who were right apologize to the people who weren't

• Public health didn't lose trust — it was politicized

• Fauci: the noble lie on masks, the decision to take the Fifth, and the campaign against him

• Scientists detained, arrested, and blamed for origins they had nothing to do with

• How deconversion actually happens — Vaxopedia, a five-minute conversation with a nurse, and the parents who changed their minds

About the Show

We Want Them Infected is hosted by Dr. Jonathan Howard, a neurologist and psychiatrist in New York City, and Wendy Orent, a science writer specializing in the evolution of infectious disease. The show covers medical misinformation, public health policy, and the people shaping both.

The views expressed are those of the hosts and guests.

What happens when government scientists decide they can no longer stay silent?

In this episode of We Want Them Infected, Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent welcome Dr. Jenna Norton and Dr. Sylvia Chou—two former NIH scientists who helped organize and sign the Bethesda Declaration, an open letter raising concerns about political interference in biomedical research at the National Institutes of Health.

The conversation explores why hundreds of NIH employees came together to publicly challenge policies they say undermined scientific integrity, disrupted clinical research, and created a culture of fear within one of the world's leading research institutions.

Dr. Norton and Dr. Chou discuss the events leading to the Declaration, the difficult personal decisions they faced, and what they believe has changed one year later. They also examine the broader implications for public trust, scientific independence, and the future of federally funded medical research.

Whether you agree or disagree with their conclusions, this episode offers an inside perspective from scientists who experienced these events firsthand.

• The origins of the Bethesda Declaration
• Why NIH scientists chose to publicly dissent
• Allegations of political influence over scientific research
• Grant terminations and their impact on ongoing clinical trials
• How censorship concerns affected researchers inside NIH
• The culture of fear described by current and former NIH employees
• The challenges facing early-career scientists
• Scientific integrity versus political priorities
• Why the authors say courage and transparency matter in public health
• Reflections one year after the Bethesda Declaration

• Scientific institutions depend on open debate and independent inquiry.
• Research funding decisions can have lasting consequences for patients and public health.
• Whistleblowing often comes with significant personal and professional risk.
• Public trust in science requires transparency and accountability.
• The future of biomedical research depends on protecting scientific integrity.

Subscribe to We Want Them Infected for thoughtful conversations examining the policies, decisions, and scientific debates that continue to shape public health.

Is the "Make America Healthy Again" movement beginning to unravel?

Jonathan Howard, MD, and Wendy Orent examine a wave of recent public health stories that they argue reveal growing dysfunction within the Department of Health and Human Services under Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. From staffing shortages and agency leadership vacancies to vaccine policy changes and expanding infectious disease outbreaks, they discuss what they believe are the real-world consequences of current federal health leadership.

The conversation also explores new measles outbreaks, cyclospora foodborne illness, influenza vaccine effectiveness, updated COVID vaccine research, child labor debates, NIH funding, scientific independence, and the continuing influence of prominent pandemic-era commentators.

Whether you agree or disagree, this episode tackles some of the most consequential public health debates unfolding today.

• The latest reporting on RFK Jr.'s leadership at HHS
• Why MAHA and MAGA may be increasingly at odds
• The growing measles outbreaks across the United States
• Cyclospora infections and concerns over weakened food safety oversight
• New research on influenza vaccine effectiveness in preventing pediatric deaths
• Updated COVID vaccine effectiveness data against hospitalization and severe illness
• The role of herd immunity and population immunity in today's COVID landscape
• The future of CDC leadership and federal public health agencies
• NIH funding, political oversight, and concerns about scientific independence
• Scott Atlas and calls to abolish the NIH
• Continued debate over COVID lockdowns and pandemic policy
• David Zweig, Jeffrey Tucker, Brownstone Institute, and education debates
• Child labor laws and their intersection with pandemic-era rhetoric
• Why physician-scientists continue debating the legacy of COVID policy
• Scientific misinformation and public trust
• Current public health threats beyond COVID

• RFK Jr.
• Department of Health and Human Services
• MAHA
• MAGA
• Measles resurgence
• Cyclospora outbreak
• Vaccine effectiveness
• Influenza vaccination
• COVID-19 boosters
• CDC leadership
• NIH funding
• Scientific research
• Public health policy
• Pandemic response
• School closures
• Medical misinformation
• Health policy

"Public health leadership isn't judged by rhetoric—it's judged by outcomes."

"Preventable diseases don't care about political ideology."

"Science requires evidence, not personalities."

• Recent New York Times reporting on HHS leadership
• JAMA studies on COVID-19 vaccine effectiveness
• CIDRAP influenza vaccine research
• Scientific American reporting on NIH funding changes
• Washington Post reporting on federal science policy

We Want Them Infected examines public health, infectious disease, vaccine policy, misinformation, and science through evidence-based discussion featuring neurologist Dr. Jonathan Howard and science journalist Wendy Orent.

Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and leave a review to help more listeners discover the show.

In Episode 102 of We Want Them Infected, hosts Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent are joined by Jenna Norton, a public health scientist and NIH program officer who became one of the leading voices opposing what she describes as the politicization of biomedical research.

The conversation begins with a discussion of a recent article by John Ioannidis criticizing "misinformation labeling," prompting a broader conversation about scientific accountability, public trust, and the responsibility to challenge misinformation.

Dr. Norton then shares an insider's perspective on the dramatic changes inside the National Institutes of Health following the arrival of new leadership. She explains how grant cancellations, staffing reductions, halted clinical trials, and increasing political oversight led her and dozens of colleagues to organize the Bethesda Declaration, an open letter expressing concern over threats to scientific independence.

The discussion explores:

• How NIH grant funding works and the role of program officers.
• The culture of scientific collaboration that historically defined the NIH.
• Concerns over political influence in research funding.
• The impact of canceled clinical trials on patients and researchers.
• Why Dr. Norton believes scientific dissent must be protected.
• Her experience being placed on administrative leave after publicly criticizing agency leadership.
• The long-term consequences of politicizing public health research.

The episode concludes with a discussion about proposed federal funding changes, the future of biomedical research, and why protecting scientific integrity matters for every American—not just scientists.

Jenna Norton is a health equity and public health scientist serving as a program officer at the National Institutes of Health, where her work has focused on kidney disease, urology, and health disparities within the National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases. She is one of the principal organizers and signers of the Bethesda Declaration, a public statement from NIH employees expressing concerns about political interference in biomedical research and the erosion of scientific independence. Dr. Norton has written publicly about scientific integrity, whistleblower protections, and evidence-based policymaking, emphasizing that she speaks in her personal capacity rather than on behalf of the NIH.

• Scientific integrity at the NIH
• The Bethesda Declaration
• NIH grant funding and peer review
• Clinical trial terminations
• Whistleblower protections
• Public trust in science
• Political influence on biomedical research
• Research ethics
• Health disparities
• Evidence-based policymaking

In this episode of We Want Them Infected, Jonathan Howard, MD, and Wendy Orent return with another "Therapy Time" session, breaking down the latest controversies in public health, vaccine policy, and medical misinformation.

They examine a recent Wall Street Journal documentary on the Great Barrington Declaration and discuss what they describe as the ongoing effort to rewrite the history of the COVID-19 pandemic. The conversation explores the role of public health experts, media narratives, and the consequences of what they view as COVID amnesia.

Jonathan and Wendy also discuss the growing measles outbreaks across the United States, declining vaccination rates, misinformation surrounding vitamin A as a measles treatment, and the broader impact of vaccine skepticism on public health.

Additional topics include RFK Jr.'s influence over U.S. health policy, changes within federal health agencies, the future of vaccine recommendations, scientific funding, medical research, and the ethical questions surrounding global health decisions.

Throughout the episode, they highlight the importance of frontline physicians, researchers, and healthcare workers who continue to combat infectious diseases and advocate for evidence-based medicine.

• The Wall Street Journal documentary on the Great Barrington Declaration and the debate over COVID-era policies

• Why Jonathan believes COVID's impact on young and otherwise healthy patients is being minimized

• The controversy surrounding the idea of herd immunity through widespread infection

• The American Diabetes Association controversy involving criticism of NIH leadership

• RFK Jr.'s role in public health policy and reactions from major medical organizations

• The resurgence of measles and what declining vaccination rates mean for public health

• Misinformation surrounding measles treatments, including vitamin A

• The future of vaccine recommendations at the CDC and FDA

• Concerns over political influence in scientific research and federal funding

• The rise of unproven medical treatments marketed to vulnerable families

• Ethical debates around global infectious disease response, including Ebola

• The healthcare workers and scientists continuing to protect public health

"The people taking care of Ebola patients are the bravest people in the world."

— Wendy Orent

• The Great Barrington Declaration

• The Wall Street Journal documentary on COVID-era debates

• The New York Times reporting on RFK Jr.'s leadership of HHS

• STAT News reporting on RFK Jr.'s health policy promises

• CDC reports on measles outbreaks in the United States

• Reporting on vitamin A toxicity linked to misinformation about measles treatments

• The Guardian reporting on vaccine misinformation studies

• Reporting on NIH funding and scientific research changes

This week on We Want Them Infected, Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent take a step back from the headlines to examine the academics, journalists, physicians, and commentators who helped legitimize and elevate the MAHA movement. They revisit articles, endorsements, and public statements that portrayed figures like Jay Bhattacharya, Marty Makary, and Vinay Prasad as reformers poised to restore trust in science and public health. With the benefit of hindsight, they explore how those predictions have aged, what has happened inside major health agencies, and why accountability matters when influential voices help shape public opinion.

This week on We Want Them Infected, Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent unpack a whirlwind week in public health and pandemic policy. They examine newly released FDA findings showing no definitive child deaths linked to COVID vaccines, challenge claims made by former FDA officials, and discuss the growing controversy surrounding vaccine safety narratives. They also explore the fallout from leadership changes at the FDA, RFK Jr.'s latest public health moves, concerns about scientific collaboration restrictions, and the surprising response to recent hantavirus and Ebola threats. Along the way, they take a closer look at Jay Bhattacharya's evolving stance on infectious disease mitigation and what it may reveal about the realities of public health leadership.

Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent call this week their "Red Wedding": within days, FDA Commissioner Marty Makary resigned, Vinay Prasad was pushed out of CBER, Tracy Beth Hoeg was fired, and Senator Bill Cassidy lost his Louisiana primary. The hosts argue this is not a tragedy but a long-foretold collapse — a group of physicians who built careers as COVID-era contrarian podcasters discovering that running a regulatory agency is fundamentally different from posting about one.

Howard works through the wreckage: Makary's reported approval of flavored nicotine products days before his ouster, the FDA's treatment of the rare disease community, the leaked memo claiming pediatric COVID vaccine deaths that career staff refused to sign off on, and the broader pattern of "regulatory whiplash" that drove the agency into dysfunction. The episode then turns to who is still standing — Jay Bhattacharya at NIH, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. at HHS — and what Kennedy is reportedly doing to vaccines from behind the scenes via Martin Kulldorff's review effort.

Throughout, the hosts return to a single thesis: the skills that made Makary, Prasad, Hoeg, and Cassidy famous during COVID — opinion, tweeting, posturing — do not translate into running institutions, and the medical commentators who vouched for them (John Mandrola, Adam Cifu) have lost any remaining credibility.

• Cassidy's earlier vote to convict Trump after January 6 followed by his decisive vote advancing RFK Jr. as HHS Secretary.

• Howard and Orent's view that Cassidy's promise to "keep Kennedy in line" was hollow from the start.

• What Cassidy's defeat signals about Trump's grip on the Republican base in Louisiana — and the hosts' read that his lame-duck status may give him cover to block the next round of HHS nominees.

• The Stat News piece characterizing Makary's tenure, and the reporting that flavored nicotine was the precipitating issue with Trump's tobacco-industry donors.

• Howard's counterpoint: Makary reportedly approved a batch of electronic nicotine delivery systems (ENDS) on May 5, 2026 — the weekend before he resigned — undercutting the "principled stand" narrative.

• The pattern of selfie videos, public-facing performance, and what former FDA staff describe as hostile management of career scientists.

• Makary's pre-FDA record: the "medical error is the third leading cause of death" claim, Omicron as "nature's vaccine," "Omicold," herd immunity calls in May 2021, and the Nazi-bioweapon Lyme disease theory amplification.

• How Prasad's stated preference for randomized controlled trials translated into rejection of rare disease therapies — and the disconnect between calling for RCTs on Twitter and the practical impossibility of running them for small patient populations.

• Right-to-try advocates, the libertarian wing of MAHA (Senator Ron Johnson), and why they turned on Prasad.

• Howard's point: Pfizer's halted COVID vaccine RCT in 50–65-year-olds is the case study — the trials Prasad demanded couldn't actually be enrolled.

• Hoeg's insistence she was fired, not resigned, and her interview with Brownstone Institute–adjacent journalist Maryanne Demasi.

• Her claim that the chaos at the FDA was "created by the media" rather than real.

• The memo alleging 10 pediatric deaths from the COVID vaccine that career FDA staff would not sign off on — and Howard's contrast with the J&J/thrombosis response, where nine deaths produced immediate, transparent action.

• Hoeg's role in the Denmark-style vaccine schedule rollback memo alongside Makary.

• Audio pulled from a pre-appointment Prasad/Makary appearance describing the FDA as "erratic," "capricious," and politically pressured.

• Howard's read: every criticism they leveled at the Biden-era FDA describes their own tenure — political pressure from Trump, demoted career staff, inconsistent standards.

• The Peter Marks / Marion Gruber / Phil Krause booster episode reframed in light of what followed.

• Mandrola's "Can We Give the New FDA's Leadership a Chance?" piece a year earlier — and the line about Prasad and Makary inducing companies to run proper RCTs, set against Pfizer's halted trial.

• Howard's account of an email exchange with Cifu following Cifu's visit to NYU — Howard's offer of a serious content-level conversation, and Cifu's decline.

• The broader "medical conservatives" project and what the hosts argue has happened to its credibility.

• The letter from a senior NIH scientist on Bhattacharya's leadership — political termination of grants, deals institutions are making to recover funding, and Bhattacharya's silence.

• Howard and Orent's read on Bhattacharya's visible deterioration and his retreat into Great Barrington nostalgia.

• The New York Times reporting (Christina Jewett and Sheryl Gay Stolberg) on Kennedy's vaccine inquiry being led by Kulldorff.

• Howard's pushback on the framing of Kulldorff as merely "a critic of restrictions and mandates" — and the 2020 record of his herd-immunity-through-infection advocacy, including his Stockholm "almost at herd immunity" claim in April 2020.

• The hosts' concern that the COVID amnesia project lets pandemic-era pro-infection figures re-enter regulatory power with their record sanitized.

• The withdrawn Surgeon General nomination and what it signals.

• The Robert Malone vs. Makary public falling-out over the unreleased pediatric deaths data.

• Why the MAHA coalition — held together by shared COVID grievance — is coming apart now that COVID has receded from headlines.

On Cassidy: "He betrayed his oath as a physician, he betrayed the American people, and he's going down into the ignominious dust." — Wendy Orent

On the Makary–Prasad–Hoeg trio: "The same skill sets that catapulted these guys to power — essentially being excellent podcasters — do not translate into leading a government agency of tens of thousands of employees that regulates 20 percent of the US economy." — Jonathan Howard

On the legacy: "These guys are now cautionary tales for medical students. I would love to teach a course called 'Be the Opposite of Bill Cassidy, Marty Makary, Vinay Prasad, and Tracy Beth Hoeg.'" — Jonathan Howard

On Bhattacharya: "His soul has been totally corrupted by the people who he teamed up with. You also see it in his face. He's not the same person that took the position." — Jonathan Howard

• Stat News — "Why Marty Makary Was the Worst FDA Commissioner in 25 Years"

• Vinay Prasad's 2016 Stat News rebuttal of Makary's "medical error" claim

• David Gorski (Science-Based Medicine, 2016) — rebuttal of the medical-error-as-third-leading-cause-of-death claim

• Jonathan Howard, Science-Based Medicine — recent piece compiling Makary's COVID-era statements

• New York Times — Christina Jewett and Sheryl Gay Stolberg on Kennedy's vaccine inquiry

• Washington Post — "Ouster of RFK's Allies Tests MAHA-Trump Alliance"

• Ben Mazer, The Atlantic — on whether Makary and Prasad enacted lasting change

• Francis Lee — In COVID's Wake

• Alfred Crosby — America's Forgotten Pandemic

• Maryanne Demasi interview with Tracy Beth Hoeg

• MedPage Today — Makary and Prasad, "The Importance of Humility in Medicine"

• Marty Makary — outgoing FDA Commissioner

• Vinay Prasad — former CBER Director

• Tracy Beth Hoeg — fired FDA official

• Senator Bill Cassidy (R-LA) — lost primary

• Robert F. Kennedy Jr. — HHS Secretary

• Jay Bhattacharya — NIH Director

• Martin Kulldorff — leading Kennedy's vaccine review

• Peter Marks — former CBER Director, Operation Warp Speed

• Bob Kadlec — Operation Warp Speed

• David Kessler — former FDA Commissioner (referenced)

• Marion Gruber and Phil Krause — former FDA vaccine reviewers

• John Mandrola and Adam Cifu — "medical conservative" commentators

• Robert Malone — anti-vaccine activist

• Casey Means — withdrawn Surgeon General nominee

• Senator Ron Johnson (R-WI)

• Representative Jake Auchincloss — opened FDA whistleblower line

• Art Caplan — bioethicist (retirement)

• Erica Schwartz — CDC Director nominee, unconfirmed

Dr. Jonathan Howard (neurologist and author) and science journalist Wendy Orent return for another sharp, unsparing look at the state of U.S. public health policy. In this episode, the hosts unpack the surprise withdrawal of Casey Means as surgeon general nominee, her replacement by Fox News commentator and MSKCC breast imaging chief Dr. Nicole Saphier, and what the shuffle signals about the fracturing of the MAHA coalition.

They dig into Saphier's contradictory record — pro-vaccine statements from 2020 and 2021 set against more recent anti-vaccine messaging, her supplement business (DropRx), and her now-deleted social media posts criticizing Trump and Elon Musk. From there, the conversation turns to the FDA's blocked publication of research showing the COVID and shingles vaccines are safe, the apparent role of former FDA vaccine office chief Dr. Vinay Prasad, and reporting that FDA Commissioner Marty Makary's job is in jeopardy.

The episode also covers a small piece of good news — NIH program director Jenna Norton being reinstated after Jay Bhattacharya placed her on administrative leave for organizing the Bethesda Declaration — alongside disturbing developments: RFK Jr. clearing the path for minors to use tanning beds, and the militarized arrest of 78-year-old retired NIH scientist Dr. David Morens. Howard and Orent close on what the Morens arrest reveals about where lab leak conspiracy thinking has led American science and the rule of law.

Dr. Jonathan Howard: Neurologist, professor, and author who writes prolifically on COVID misinformation and public health policy.

Wendy Orent: Science journalist and author specializing in infectious disease, evolutionary biology, and public health.

• [00:00] Welcome and Atlanta weather check-in

• [00:35] Casey Means out, Nicole Saphier in as surgeon general nominee — what it signals about MAHA

• [01:30] Saphier's role at Memorial Sloan Kettering and her integrative medicine push

• [02:50] The 2021 WSJ op-ed with Marty Makary: a 10-fold error on pediatric COVID hospitalizations that was never corrected

• [06:30] Saphier's video opposing COVID vaccines for healthy children — and the framing of myocarditis as a fate worse than death

• [09:20] Saphier's earlier pro-vaccine statements from 2020 and 2021, and why MAHA now resents her

• [11:15] DropRx supplements: the surgeon general nominee's tincture business

• [12:30] Brandy Zadrozny's reporting on Saphier's book and her past criticism of the Plandemic film

• [13:10] Wendy watches Plandemic so you don't have to: Judy Mikovits and the anti-vaccine machine

• [14:50] CNN reports Saphier purged posts critical of Trump and Musk before her nomination

• [15:50] The most disturbing Saphier clip: 'DOGE is one of the greatest things to happen in U.S. history' while telling cancer researchers to 'just pause'

• [16:50] Harvard's November 2025 finding: hundreds of thousands of deaths from the USAID shutdown

• [18:20] Good news: Jenna Norton reinstated at NIH after Jay Bhattacharya tried to fire her over the Bethesda Declaration

• [19:30] Greg Gonsalves on scientists who cooperate with authoritarian science policy

• [20:10] FDA blocked publication of research showing the COVID and shingles vaccines are safe

• [21:30] Vinay Prasad: the censorship critic who became a censor

• [22:30] Why are these people opposed to the shingles vaccine? Howard and Orent on herpes zoster, strokes, and ophthalmic complications

• [23:50] New evidence: recombinant zoster vaccine linked to reduced dementia risk in adults 65+

• [26:10] Marty Makary's FDA in chaos — WSJ, Bloomberg, and Politico reporting on a possible shakeup

• [28:00] Trump pressures the FDA to approve flavored vapes; ENDS authorization issued the same day

• [31:00] Makary's interview defending the Replimmune metastatic melanoma rejection — and getting caught in the contradiction

• [33:30] Who's really driving the FDA shakeup? Biotech investors, not patients

• [35:30] RFK Jr. clears path for minors to use tanning beds, and what dermatologists are saying

• [36:30] The arrest of Dr. David Morens: a 78-year-old retired NIH scientist, federal agents, tactical gear, and a strip-search

• [38:30] Lysenkoism revisited — what the lab leak conspiracy was always going to lead to

• [40:30] Closing thoughts and sign-off

• Casey Means was withdrawn as surgeon general nominee and replaced by Dr. Nicole Saphier, head of breast imaging at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center and a frequent Fox News medical commentator.

• Howard revisits Saphier's December 2021 Wall Street Journal op-ed with Marty Makary, which understated pediatric COVID-19 hospitalizations by roughly a factor of 10 because the authors did not realize covid.net data only covered about 10 percent of the U.S. population. The error has never been corrected.

• Saphier's pre-nomination digital footprint included pro-vaccine statements from 2020 and 2021 alongside more recent anti-vaccine content, criticism of Trump and Elon Musk that has since been purged, and a personal supplement line called DropRx.

• The FDA blocked publication of internal research finding that the COVID-19 and shingles vaccines are safe, with reporting suggesting Dr. Vinay Prasad's office was involved in the decision before he left the agency.

• Howard points out the irony: Prasad built much of his public profile complaining about scientific censorship, then engaged in censorship the moment he held FDA power.

• New peer-reviewed research continues to show the recombinant zoster (shingles) vaccine is associated with reduced dementia risk in adults aged 65 and older, even as senior officials downplay or block such findings.

• Multiple outlets — the Wall Street Journal, Bloomberg, NOTUS, and a Rachel Bade scoop — report Makary is at risk of being removed as FDA Commissioner over conflicts with the White House and his handling of rare-disease drug approvals.

• The same day Trump publicly pressured the FDA on flavored vapes, the agency issued a press release authorizing new ENDS (electronic nicotine delivery systems) products.

• In a 15-minute interview, Makary defended the rejection of Replimmune's metastatic melanoma drug by attributing it to career FDA scientists, but the journalist surfaced earlier indications that the initial review team had recommended approval.

• NIH program director Jenna Norton, a key organizer of the Bethesda Declaration, was reinstated after Dr. Jay Bhattacharya placed her on administrative leave. A judge also reinstated several FEMA employees in the same ruling.

• Federal agents in tactical gear and bulletproof vests arrested Dr. David Morens, a 78-year-old retired NIH influenza researcher and former aide to Dr. Anthony Fauci, at his home over allegations he used a private email account to discuss official business and avoid FOIA disclosure.

• According to reporting in Science, Morens was strip-searched, handcuffed, and driven roughly 65 kilometers for fingerprinting and booking.

• Howard and Orent frame the arrest as the predictable endpoint of years of lab leak conspiracy rhetoric, and as a clear case of selective political prosecution.

• Wall Street Journal op-ed: 'Should You Vaccinate Your Five-Year-Old?' by Nicole Saphier and Marty Makary, December 3, 2021

• Plandemic (2020 anti-vaccine film featuring Judy Mikovits)

• Make America Healthy Again (book by Nicole Saphier)

• Harvard study, November 2025, on deaths attributable to the USAID shutdown

• Greg Gonsalves essay on Vichy scientists

• Bethesda Declaration

• Alyssa Finley, Wall Street Journal: 'President Trump's Marty Makary Problem'

• Bloomberg: 'Paranoia, Turmoil and Backlash Inside Marty Makary's FDA'

• Rachel Bade: 'Scoop: Makary's Job in Jeopardy as White House Considers FDA Shakeup'

• Liz Esely White, Wall Street Journal: 'Trump Pressures FDA Commissioner to Approve Flavored Vapes'

• Los Angeles Times: 'RFK Jr. clears path for minors' use of tanning beds, much to the dismay of dermatologists'

• Science: 'Guns and bulletproof vests: How federal agents arrested a Fauci aide'

• Brandy Zadrozny — reporting on Nicole Saphier

In this episode of We Want Them Infected, hosts Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent break down the growing concerns around scientific censorship, COVID-19 misinformation, and the erosion of public trust in health institutions. They examine controversial claims surrounding vaccine studies, leadership decisions at the CDC and NIH, and the broader implications of political influence on public health policy.

The discussion highlights debates over COVID vaccine efficacy research, the suppression of scientific findings, and the role of key figures like Jay Bhattacharya and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. in shaping public discourse. The hosts also explore the resurgence of diseases like measles, declining vaccination rates, and the long-term consequences of weakened public health infrastructure.

From academic freedom concerns to global health risks, this episode provides a critical analysis of how misinformation and leadership decisions are reshaping science, medicine, and public trust in 2026.

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

Jonathan and Wendy unpack the most surprising political move of Trump's second term: the nomination of Dr. Erica Schwartz — a physician, lawyer, former Coast Guard public health official, and unapologetic architect of military vaccine mandates — to run the CDC. Praised by figures like Jerome Adams, Vin Gupta, and Dorit Reiss, and openly loathed by RFK Jr.'s attack-dog attorney Aaron Siri, Schwartz's selection is read as a signal that the White House is quietly sidelining Kennedy ahead of the midterms and trying to win back the saner corners of the GOP.

From there, the hosts dig into the widening fault lines inside MAHA:

• Marty Makary vs. Robert Malone — the "10 children killed by the COVID vaccine" report Makary promised has never materialized, and Malone is now publicly accusing him of the exact cover-up Makary accused his predecessors of.
• Vinay Prasad's exit from the FDA — his much-hyped randomized controlled trial of the Pfizer COVID vaccine in healthy 50–64-year-olds failed to recruit, proving (again) that tweeting about RCTs is easier than running them. Jonathan plays Prasad's own year-old promise back against him.
• The rumored FDA replacement — ophthalmologist and Twitter personality David Hooman, whose COVID-vaccine misinformation record would send exactly the wrong signal.
• Jay Bhattacharya on the rally circuit — CPAC, Turning Point USA, Kennedy rallies, DeSantis rallies — all while insisting "science shouldn't be political." Plus his role in suppressing a CDC vaccine-safety study and the UCSF faculty petition to block Prasad's return.
• The peptides free-for-all at the FDA, and why Kennedy still has enough juice to throw bones to his wellness-grifter base.

Also: measles in Utah, a Moab travel detour, and a plea to every journalist, clinician, and listener still pushing back. MAHA is on its back foot — the job now is to keep the pressure on.

Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent dig into the widening fractures inside the MAHA coalition — from Robert Malone's dramatic ACIP exit and UFO tangents, to Vinay Prasad's phantom "10 dead children" claim, Jay Bhattacharya's inability to fix literal broken windows at the CDC, and the ongoing search for anyone willing to run federal health agencies. A sprawling, unscripted conversation about vaccine science, institutional collapse, and the human cost of health misinformation.

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

In this episode, the hosts unpack the controversial exit of Vinay Prasad from the FDA and what it reveals about fractures inside the MAHA coalition and the broader Trump-era health policy landscape. They examine the disputes surrounding rare-disease drug approvals—particularly Huntington's gene therapy—alongside ongoing battles over COVID vaccines, regulatory standards, and public trust in federal health agencies. The discussion also explores how political alliances, pandemic-era commentary, and conflicts with patient advocacy groups ultimately contributed to Prasad's downfall and what it may signal for the future of vaccine policy and biomedical regulation in the U.S.

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

In this episode, Jonathan and Wendy examine the growing instability inside U.S. public health institutions and how political battles, misinformation, and shifting leadership are reshaping the national conversation around vaccines and infectious disease.

They are joined by Jeff Kunzler, creator of the Pandemic Accountability Index, a project that tracks misinformation and public commentary related to the COVID-19 pandemic.

Together, they unpack rising measles cases, the evolving political influence on public health agencies, and the broader cultural battle over how the pandemic will be remembered.

The conversation explores how misinformation spreads, how public trust has shifted since COVID-19, and what the future may hold for American public health policy.

Jeff Kunzler is the creator of the Pandemic Accountability Index, a project that tracks misinformation and public statements related to the COVID-19 pandemic and public health policy.

Raised in Washington State's Skagit Valley, Jeff later worked in the advertising industry as a graphic designer, copywriter, and photographer. During the early stages of the COVID-19 pandemic, he began compiling medical research, public commentary, and social media statements related to pandemic narratives. That work eventually developed into the Pandemic Accountability Index, which aims to document how influential figures shaped public health discourse during the pandemic.

Pandemic Accountability Index
https://pandemicindex.substack.com 

Science Based Medicine
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

In this headline-driven episode, Jonathan and Wendy unpack the mounting turbulence inside U.S. public health institutions — from the political fallout over glyphosate and mRNA flu vaccines to FDA reversals, CDC leadership chaos, and a worsening measles outbreak. They examine internal fractures within the Maha movement, the politicization of vaccine policy, and the devastating real-world consequences of misinformation — including a 7-year-old hospitalized with measles encephalitis. The episode blends policy critique, scientific context, and ethical concern, highlighting how regulatory instability and distrust are reshaping American public health in 2026.

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

Jonathan and Wendy unpack how culture war politics, anti-vaccine ideology, and regulatory power are colliding in dangerous ways. The conversation begins with criticism Jonathan received after arguing that trans healthcare decisions should be left to doctors, patients, and families—not debated for podcast content or political gain. The discussion then pivots to the measles resurgence, including outbreaks in ICE detention centers and efforts to minimize measles deaths using recycled COVID-era talking points.

They examine five recurring myths being repurposed from COVID to measles: people are dying "with" not "of" the disease, only sick children die, the outbreak is "almost over," vaccines are more dangerous than the illness, and doctors are to blame for deaths. Finally, they analyze the FDA's controversial refusal to review Moderna's mRNA flu vaccine, exploring what that decision signals about regulatory instability, innovation suppression, and long-term damage to vaccine research in the U.S.

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

Jonathan and Wendy unpack a week of grim headlines—starting with reactions to the Epstein files and what it means when high-profile "wellness" personalities show up in uncomfortable places. From there, they dig into the ongoing campaign to re-litigate COVID (lockdowns, schools, vaccines) as a justification for dismantling public health, highlighting how "restore trust in science" rhetoric often functions as cover for undermining expertise, sidelining journalists, and mainstreaming vaccine skepticism—while preventable outbreaks like measles keep spreading.

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

Dr. Howard and Wendy open with a rare sliver of relief: Guinea-Bissau halting an ethically alarming Hepatitis B vaccine trial proposal framed as a "natural experiment" on infants. From there, the episode pivots into the broader breakdown: vaccine leadership rhetoric that treats polio as negotiable and measles as a "real-world learning opportunity," the normalization of losing measles elimination status, and growing fears that autism-focused federal committees are being reshaped to fit a predetermined vaccine agenda. 

They connect these developments to institutional erosion—NIH advisory panels hollowing out, FDA messages disappearing (including warnings about dangerous "autism cures"), and industry pullback as vaccine trials become politically radioactive. The closing argument is blunt: many of the loudest COVID contrarian voices warned about authoritarian overreach in theory, then aligned with (or enabled) the actual power structures now degrading public health in practice—and the hosts insist the record needs to be preserved so this moment can't be memory-holed later.

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

Dr. Howard and Wendy unpack what they see as a rapid erosion of evidence-based public health in the U.S. — from vaccine schedule rollbacks and rising measles outbreaks to flu surges and institutional dysfunction inside agencies like the FDA and NIH. They examine how rhetoric about "restoring trust" is being used to justify removing protections for children, pregnant people, and vulnerable populations, while scientific integrity, transparency, and accountability are sidelined. The conversation connects current vaccine policy changes to broader patterns of political control, misinformation, and the abandonment of lessons learned during COVID, ending with a call to resist silence and demand accountability from leaders who shape public health policy. 

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

In this episode, Jonathan and Wendy unpack a relentless wave of public-health controversies—from proposed vaccine rollbacks and ethically indefensible clinical trials to political interference at the FDA and NIH. As science takes a back seat to ideology, they explore how misinformation, regulatory capture, and selective ethics threaten public trust, vulnerable populations, and the future of evidence-based medicine.

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

In this episode, Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent unpack what feels like a turning point for U.S. public health: the rapid erosion of scientific norms inside the FDA and CDC. Sparked by a leaked memo claiming pediatric COVID vaccine deaths, the conversation traces how unsubstantiated assertions, selective data interpretation, and performative outrage are now shaping vaccine policy.

They examine the backlash from former FDA leaders, the misuse of safety databases, and the growing pattern of framing ambiguity as proof of harm. The discussion moves beyond COVID to show how this approach now threatens long-standing vaccines like hepatitis B—despite decades of evidence and dramatic reductions in disease.

At its core, the episode argues this isn't about transparency or restoring trust. It's about power, spectacle, and ideology replacing evidence. When regulators prioritize narratives over data, the real risk isn't hidden side effects—it's the collapse of public confidence in the systems meant to protect children and public health.

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

This episode breaks down a moment most people aren't paying close enough attention to: the quiet collapse of leadership and process inside the FDA. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent walk through the sudden resignation of a widely respected career regulator, the internal turmoil left behind, and a leaked memo claiming child deaths from COVID vaccines—released without public data, peer review, or transparent methodology.

Rather than debating vaccines in the abstract, the conversation focuses on something more troubling: what happens when regulatory standards erode, scientific disagreement turns political, and decision-making bypasses established safeguards. With career experts stepping away and unvetted claims driving policy discussions, the episode asks whether the FDA can still function as a credible public health authority—and what the consequences may be if it can't.

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

This episode dives into the unraveling of America's public health infrastructure as political interference reshapes the CDC, FDA, and NIH. Jonathan and Wendy walk through the CDC's new vaccine-autism messaging, the chaos and infighting inside the FDA, cuts to critical NIH trials, and Jay Bhattacharya's controversial "pandemic plan" built on personal responsibility instead of public health action. With outbreaks of measles, pertussis, and flu rising, they explore how misinformation, censorship, and agency dysfunction are putting the country at risk.

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

This episode dives deep into the escalating chaos inside the FDA as leaders, scientists, and biotech insiders publicly revolt against the agency's current direction. Hosts Jonathan and Wendy break down the explosive STAT News investigations revealing mass resignations, internal fear, political interference, and allegations of mismanagement under V. Prasad's leadership.

The episode unpacks the controversial rejection of a promising Huntington's disease gene therapy, accusations of shifting scientific standards, and the quiet but aggressive attempt by FDA officials — including Tracy Beth Høeg — to restrict access to COVID vaccines for young men. From vaccine policy upheavals to political pressure from the RFK Jr. administration, this conversation exposes the "soap opera" unraveling inside the nation's most important medical regulatory body — and what the turmoil could mean for patients, public trust, and the future of science in America.

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

In this gripping Halloween episode marking the second anniversary of We Want Them Infected, hosts Dr. Jonathan Howard and Dr. Wendy Orange confront the chilling reality of America under "Trump II." They dissect the collapse of public health, the weaponization of medicine, and the transformation of science into "Trump-Based Medicine"—a term Jonathan coins to describe physicians parroting political dogma over data.

The duo highlights interviews and statements by Vinay Prasad, Marty Makary, Jay Bhattacharya, and Martin Kulldorff, who now echo President Trump's pseudoscientific vaccine directives—like splitting the MMR shot and delaying Hepatitis B vaccines. They warn that this alignment with anti-vaccine figures such as RFK Jr. and Andrew Wakefield marks a dangerous regression that could undo decades of medical progress.

They also expose turmoil within the FDA, where Prasad's leadership has allegedly created a culture of fear, and discuss the growing exodus of scientists from federal health agencies. From declining measles vaccination rates to government loyalty tests, Howard and Orange paint a harrowing portrait of a nation sliding into scientific authoritarianism.

The episode closes with their sobering realization: despite years of warning, even they underestimated how dark things could get.

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

In this explosive episode, Jonathan and Wendy mark their podcast's second anniversary with a scathing review of the current state of U.S. public health and politics. They unpack the implosion of the lab leak movement, the chaos at the NIH under Jay Bhattacharya's leadership, and the bizarre alignment of former "anti-establishment" scientists with political power. From RFK Jr.'s firings at the NIH and CDC to Trump's latest "pro-science" rebrand, the hosts expose how disinformation, ego, and incompetence have reshaped American medicine—and why legacy media, now led by figures like Barry Weiss, keeps amplifying the madness.

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

In this face-to-face episode, Jonathan and Wendy dive into the growing chaos surrounding U.S. public health. They highlight CDC whistleblower Dr. Susan Menez's powerful testimony on integrity, contrast it with the dysfunction of the new ACIP panel under RFK Jr., and dissect Trump's Tylenol-and-autism press conference that resurrects discredited Andrew Wakefield talking points. From quack autism "cures" to political appointees fumbling vaccine policy, the discussion traces how anti-vaccine disinformation moved from fringe rhetoric to federal power—leaving states, insurers, and medical groups scrambling to fill the leadership vacuum.

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent open with the media's response to the Charlie Kirk murder, then trace a straight line back to early-pandemic narratives that normalized doubt and minimized harm. They dissect John Ioannidis' April 2020 claims (low IFR, asymptomatic majority, "they would've died anyway"), show how those talking points seeded Great Barrington-style "protect the vulnerable" rhetoric, and examine how today's figures—Jay Bhattacharya, Marty Makary, and RFK Jr.—reuse those frames to attack CDC leadership and rewrite history. The episode closes on the emotional toll of being dismissed in real time while morgues overflowed, and why remembering who amplified whom still matters.

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

In this episode, Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent dissect the latest controversies around censorship, disinformation, and the rewriting of COVID's history. From Jonathan's YouTube ban after posting videos of public officials, to David Zweig's revisionist narratives about school closures, the conversation exposes how propaganda tactics and false claims are reshaping public perception. 

They also highlight troubling developments at the FDA, NIH, and in political arenas where vaccine mandates are under attack, drawing connections between misinformation, free speech battles, and the erosion of trust in science.

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

Public health leaders, scientists, and concerned citizens are rallying together to demand accountability from RFK Jr. His recent decisions and rhetoric have ignited a firestorm of criticism, raising alarms about the future of public health in America. A new petition calls for his immediate resignation, citing dangerous policies, lack of scientific transparency, and a disregard for evidence-based medicine.

This movement is about more than politics—it's about safeguarding the health and security of Americans. By signing, you join a coalition of doctors, experts, and everyday citizens standing up for truth, integrity, and science.

👉 Sign and share the petition here: https://www.change.org/p/demand-rfk-jr-resign-petition-for-a-healthy-america

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

In this episode of We Want Them Infected, Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent unpack the shocking CDC shooting in Atlanta, which many are calling "public health's January 6th." They trace how years of anti-science rhetoric from figures like RFK Jr., Jay Bhattacharya, and Vinay Prasad have fueled violent consequences.

They also welcome their first guest, Dr. Philipp Markolin PhD, author of Lab Leak Fever. Dr. Markolin shares his global reporting on COVID's origins, dismantles the so-called "lab leak" hypothesis, and explains how disinformation has been weaponized for politics and power. From epidemiological evidence at the Wuhan market to the ghost DNA of raccoon dogs, he outlines why science overwhelmingly supports a zoonotic origin.

This episode tackles misinformation, political corruption, and the dangerous future of science under attack—while honoring the tragic loss of a young officer in the CDC shooting.

• Dr. Phillipp Markolin: Lab Leak Fever → https://www.lab-leak-fever.com/about
• STAT News article: "The CDC Shooting Was Public Health's January 6th" by Colin Carlson & Sean Kennedy
• STAT News article: "Kennedy's Case Against mRNA Vaccines Collapses Under His Own Evidence" by Dr. Jake Scott
• LA Times: Coverage of COVID resurgence in the Southwest, fall 2025
• MedPage Today: "The Executive Order That Could Cripple Science" by Adam Brown
• Science-Based Medicine: Analysis of Jay Bhattacharya and NIH policy shifts
• Audrey Tang (Taiwan's Cyber Minister) – discussed as a model for democratic info ecosystems

Dr. Philipp Markolin, PhD is a Switzerland-based science writer and author of Lab Leak Fever, a definitive investigation into the origins of COVID-19. Trained in molecular biology and machine learning, Dr. Markolin spent more than a decade in academia before transitioning to science communication during the pandemic.

He has written extensively on the intersection of science, conspiracy theories, and society, and has interviewed leading virologists, field researchers, and policymakers around the world. His reporting has taken him into wildlife markets and labs, where he traced the evidence that overwhelmingly supports a zoonotic origin for COVID-19.

Dr. Markolin also co-produced a documentary film exploring the pandemic's origins and the scientists at the center of the controversy. He writes the blog Protagonist Science and speaks globally on the dangers of misinformation and the urgent need to protect scientific integrity.

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

In this episode, we break down the high-profile firing of Dr. Vinay Prasad from his FDA leadership post. Once hailed as a contrarian voice in medicine, Prasad quickly became a polarizing figure both inside and outside the agency. We explore the tangled web of political infighting, pressure from Big Pharma, the biotech industry, and conspiracy theorists like Laura Loomer—and why this decision may have less to do with science and more with chaos at the top.

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

What happens when the loudest anti-vaccine voices stop podcasting and start running the FDA? In this explosive episode, Jonathan Howard and Wendy unpack how Drs. Marty Makary and Vinay Prasad — once champions of vaccine skepticism — are now in charge of public health policy… and finding themselves at war with the very conspiracy movement they courted.

From quoting dubious anecdotes as "data" to downplaying real virus-related deaths while obsessing over vaccine side effects, their hypocrisy is staggering. Even MAGA influencers and anti-vax leaders are turning on them for not going far enough.

The leopards are eating their faces — and we're here to document the carnage.

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent unpack the ongoing collapse of trust in America's public health institutions, focusing on how FDA leaders Marty McCarey and Vinay Prasad weaponized vaccine myocarditis to undermine COVID vaccination efforts. With pediatric illnesses rising and the agency under fire from both scientists and extremists, this episode reveals how selective concern and ideological doublespeak are fueling a dangerous breakdown in science-based policy. It's a sobering look at the cost of playing politics with public health.

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

The FDA is unraveling. Scientists are being fired, vaccine access is shrinking, and top researchers are fleeing the country. And at the center of the storm? RFK Jr.'s appointees—Marty Makary and Vinay Prasad—men who once sat behind keyboards criticizing pandemic policy, now wield real power with devastating results.

In this week's episode, Jonathan and Wendy walk us through the chaos: from dismissals without explanation to fabricated claims about who's being laid off, to the surreal moment when the very people who told us COVID was like the flu are now deciding who gets vaccinated. They call out journalist John Tierney for whitewashing pandemic history and expose the hypocrisy of pundits who cheered on herd immunity while vilifying actual public health officials.

This isn't just a takedown—it's a warning. When contrarians become the establishment, science doesn't just get silenced. It gets rewritten.

The FDA is unraveling. Scientists are being fired, vaccine access is shrinking, and top researchers are fleeing the country. And at the center of the storm? RFK Jr.'s appointees—Marty Makary and Vinay Prasad—men who once sat behind keyboards criticizing pandemic policy, now wield real power with devastating results.

In this week's episode, Jonathan and Wendy walk us through the chaos: from dismissals without explanation to fabricated claims about who's being laid off, to the surreal moment when the very people who told us COVID was like the flu are now deciding who gets vaccinated. They call out journalist John Tierney for whitewashing pandemic history and expose the hypocrisy of pundits who cheered on herd immunity while vilifying actual public health officials.

This isn't just a takedown—it's a warning. When contrarians become the establishment, science doesn't just get silenced. It gets rewritten.

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

On this explosive Independence Day episode of We Want Them Infected, hosts Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent unravel a sobering transformation in U.S. public health. With agencies like the ACIP and NIH now steered by politically motivated leaders like RFK Jr., Vinay Prasad, and Jay Bhattacharya, science is taking a backseat to ideology. They dive deep into the disastrous ACIP meeting stacked with anti-vaccine appointees, the chilling disinformation from NIH and FDA leadership, and the real-world impact—from cancer patients being denied life-saving clinical trials to families unable to access COVID vaccines. This episode is a powerful wake-up call for anyone concerned about science, truth, and the future of medicine.

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

In this powerful and deeply unsettling episode, Jonathan and Wendy take listeners on a guided tour of the growing dysfunction at America's top public health agencies. They expose the political entrenchment of ideologues like Vina Prasad and Marty Makary, the purging of veteran FDA scientists like Nicole Verdun, and the accelerating efforts to rubber-stamp drug approvals without oversight. Along the way, they dissect the roles of Jay Bhattacharya, Monica Gandhi, and others who—whether through naïveté or complicity—helped usher in a new era where science is optional and public health is performative. With deeply personal reflections, biting critique, and raw concern, they highlight a chilling truth: the institutions once trusted to safeguard health are now tools of political theater, and those who warned us early are watching their worst fears materialize.

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

In this explosive episode, Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent confront the accelerating dismantling of America's public health infrastructure. They begin with the NIH staff revolt—documented in the newly published Bethesda Declaration—and Jay Bhattacharya's astonishing lack of awareness during Senate testimony. From there, they shift to RFK Jr.'s controversial appointments to the CDC's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP), many of whom are tied to disinformation campaigns and anti-vaccine advocacy. The hosts expose the hypocrisy in the medical rhetoric of figures like Vinay Prasad, who once championed randomized controlled trials (RCTs) as the gold standard—until now. With the CDC gutted, the FDA undermined, and common sense replacing real science, they ask: how do we preserve truth in an age of weaponized misinformation?

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent tear apart David Zweig's controversial book on school closures during the COVID-19 pandemic. Orent, who penned a scathing review, joins to dissect Zweig's misleading statistics, glaring omissions (like Delta and Omicron), and his cozy alignment with figures like Jay Bhattacharya and Marty Makary. The conversation dives into how public health history is being rewritten in real time—and the real-world harm it causes, particularly for children, pregnant women, and public trust in science.

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

When the loudest critics of COVID mitigation take power, their tune changes—but not for the better. In this episode, Jonathan and Wendy unravel the contradictions and consequences of new booster guidelines championed by Drs. Makary and Prasad. Once RCT absolutists, they now admit boosters are vital for the elderly—but block access for the rest, citing shaky rationale and misrepresented international comparisons. With NIH Director Jay Bhattacharya abdicating leadership and RFK Jr. laying groundwork to question childhood vaccines, the stakes are no longer theoretical. This isn't about science—it's about control, and the cost may be millions of unboosted, unprotected lives.

Let me know if you'd like a thumbnail caption, social post, or edited quote card next.

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent unpack the deep ironies and ethical contradictions behind recent appointments at the NIH and FDA. From once-demanded randomized controlled trials now deemed "not always necessary," to the political operatives now at the helm of America's public health infrastructure, the duo explores how power rewrites principles. They dissect statements from RFK Jr., Vinay Prasad, and Jay Bhattacharya, drawing attention to the chilling real-world consequences of politicized medicine—especially for vaccines and children's health.

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent examine the alarming elevation of wellness influencer Casey Means as Surgeon General nominee, despite lacking a medical license or conventional medical credibility. They delve into Vinay Prasad's appointment as head of vaccine regulation, scrutinizing his past critiques of RCT deficiencies—and the impossible standards he now sets for himself.

The episode also investigates the troubling rise of an autism registry, likened to authoritarian categorization, and NIH's internal collapse under Jay Bhattacharya, whose leadership is marked by mass layoffs and denial of responsibility. With science policy veering into cronyism, dismantling, and performative governance, the episode argues that we're witnessing a historic erosion of public health leadership—led not by scientists, but social media provocateurs.

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent return to discuss the alarming direction of U.S. public health, focusing on RFK Jr.'s misinformation campaign about vaccines, the threat of COVID booster access disappearing under political pressure, and the erosion of CDC authority. 

They critique the hypocrisy of figures like Marty Makary and Vinay Prasad who now call for new randomized controlled trials while simultaneously undercutting access to vaccines. 

The conversation also highlights the troubling revisionist COVID narratives being pushed by mainstream journalists and the dangerous implications of gutting pandemic protections—particularly for vulnerable groups.

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

In this episode, Jonathan and Wendy reunite to unpack an overwhelming cascade of public health failures. From the misuse of "soft eugenics" rhetoric to justify vaccine hesitancy, to the measles outbreaks being minimized and blamed on migrants and past COVID policies, they trace the unraveling of scientific integrity under the new administration. They highlight how figures like RFK Jr., Marty Makary, and Jay Bhattacharya have normalized misinformation, degraded public trust, and allowed preventable diseases to resurge. Despite some isolated bright spots, the episode paints a stark portrait of how ideology, not evidence, is now driving federal health leadership.

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

On this week's episode of We Want Them Infected, Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent dive into the apocalyptic headlines coming out of U.S. public health agencies. From mass firings at the NIH and FDA, to the appointment of anti-vaccine ideologues like Jay Bhattacharya and Marty Makary, this episode chronicles the rapid unraveling of institutional science under RFK Jr.'s administration. The duo unpack the performative contradictions, gaslighting statements, and political interference now shaping federal health policy—and ask, how bad can it really get?

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

In their most urgent and emotionally charged episode yet, Dr. Jonathan Howard and science journalist Wendy Orent confront the accelerating unraveling of public health institutions in the United States under the RFK Jr. administration.

They open with a flood of disturbing headlines:

• Peter Marks, the nation's top vaccine expert, has been ousted.

• Measles is surging in Texas, and children are arriving at hospitals with liver failure after being treated with toxic vitamin A overdoses—recommended by RFK-aligned influencers.

• The CDC and NIH are being gutted: funding pulled, scientists fired, and research into vaccine hesitancy and mRNA technology halted.

• David Geier, a disgraced figure with a history of chemically castrating autistic children, has been tapped to lead a new federal vaccine safety study.

Howard and Orent don't hold back. They rip into this dystopian reversal of public health, where disinformation peddlers are now calling the shots. They highlight the sheer absurdity and danger of putting figures like Jay Bhattacharya, Scott Atlas, and Geier in positions of power—people who have spent years sowing distrust in vaccines, downplaying COVID, and demonizing public health measures.

The episode draws a brutal contrast between the lived reality of frontline doctors and essential workers—many of whom died in early pandemic waves—and the self-styled martyrs of the anti-lockdown movement, who now paint themselves as victims. One particularly enraging example: Bhattacharya's claim that he felt "unsafe" on Stanford's campus after a flyer was posted with his own quote alongside Florida's Delta wave death tolls. This, while over 20,000 Floridians died in that wave, many unvaccinated due to the policies he championed.

A major target of their critique is the book In COVID's Wake, which they say rewrites history by glorifying the authors of the Great Barrington Declaration and ignoring the real human toll of their misinformation. Orent and Howard dismantle the book's central claim—that these anti-lockdown figures were treated unfairly—pointing out that many of them became media darlings, got promoted, or were appointed to powerful roles. Meanwhile, real scientists and doctors who fought on the frontlines were ignored, censured, or worse.

They also expose the cynical "woke-washing" by these same figures—claiming to champion the poor and marginalized while promoting policies that left essential workers unprotected. Their concern for "equity," Howard and Orent argue, was nothing more than rhetorical cover for libertarian, laissez-faire ideology.

As the episode barrels toward its conclusion, one message becomes chillingly clear:
We are watching the active dismantling of public health—science silenced, disinformation rewarded, and truth replaced by ideology.

And as Dr. Howard puts it:

"If we had predicted these headlines six months ago, we would've sounded insane. But now, they're reality."

This episode is a searing call to action. For scientists. For journalists. For anyone who still believes in truth, public health, and protecting the vulnerable.

Because as Orent warns:

"The wild horses of the plague apocalypse are descending... and the party's just beginning."

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

This episode critically examines In COVID's Wake by Princeton professors Steven M. and Francis Lee, focusing on their defense of the Great Barrington Declaration. Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent argue that the authors downplay the catastrophic errors of the GBD architects, who pushed for herd immunity through mass infection while opposing vaccines, masks, and lockdowns. 

The discussion highlights the disconnection between political science theorizing and real-world public health outcomes. Using Florida as a case study, they showcase the tragic failures of the GBD's approach, debunking the revisionist portrayal of its policies as reasonable or compassionate. The episode underscores the importance of accurately remembering the pandemic's scientific realities and human costs.

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

In this episode of Therapy Time with Jonathan and Wendy, hosts Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent dive into the growing measles outbreak in the U.S. and how it exposes the deadly consequences of RFK Jr.'s anti-vaccine agenda. With 259 cases in Texas alone, including 34 hospitalizations and two deaths, the hosts discuss how this outbreak was entirely preventable—yet fueled by years of misinformation from figures like RFK Jr. and his allies.

Dr. Howard reflects on an invitation he received to speak with a filmmaker producing a documentary on the Great Barrington Declaration, questioning whether it will present the truth or further rewrite pandemic history. Meanwhile, Wendy highlights RFK Jr.'s bizarre response to the measles crisis—suggesting vitamin A, cod liver oil, and steroidsover vaccines.

The discussion expands to doctors and public figures who once defended RFK Jr., including Vinay Prasad, Jay Bhattacharya, and Marty Makary, all of whom promoted his nomination as a supposed reformer of public health. Now, with RFK Jr. dismantling vaccine initiatives, canceling flu shot studies, and pushing for a new "study" on vaccines and autism, Jonathan and Wendy ask: Where are the apologies?

Other key topics include:

• Jay Bhattacharya's refusal to acknowledge that vaccines don't cause autism during Senate questioning

• The Democrats' failure to challenge Bhattacharya and Makary on their COVID-era misinformation

• The ongoing attack on vaccine safety monitoring systems and the potential removal of mRNA vaccines

• The absurdity of calls for a "randomized controlled trial" of childhood vaccine schedules

As the anti-vaccine movement gains more power, Jonathan and Wendy underscore a terrifying reality: We are watching public health be systematically dismantled—and children are paying the price.

The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 

The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.

The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.

The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.

Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.

By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.

Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.