Navigating graduate school isn't a straight line—it's a journey full of turns, challenges, and unexpected lessons. In the latest episode of "Victors in Grad School," host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Dr. Rita Fields, a lecturer at the University of Michigan Flint's School of Management, to explore her unconventional, inspiring path through higher education. Whether you're already on your grad school journey, considering taking the leap, or supporting someone who is, this episode is brimming with honesty and actionable wisdom you won't want to miss.

Dr. Rita Fields candidly shares her beginnings as a high school dropout who returned to education, ultimately building a career in human resources and pushing herself to the highest academic levels—including earning a doctorate while juggling executive work and family life. One major theme is perseverance: She discusses the powerful role self-motivation and setting clear boundaries played in her success, especially when life threw unexpected hurdles in her way.

A key takeaway from the episode is the stark contrast between undergraduate, master's, and doctoral studies. Dr. Fields describes graduate school as "straight broth with no water added"—a deep, immersive experience that requires true engagement with your chosen field. Whereas undergraduate education is about finishing what you start and getting well-rounded, graduate studies demand critical analysis and, at the doctoral level, becoming the expert who can teach the topic.

Another highlight is the discussion about burnout and self-doubt. Dr. Fields is refreshingly honest about reaching points where she questioned her ability to go on, and even considered quitting. The key, she says, is being kind to yourself, setting and honoring boundaries, building a support system, and remembering that challenges and stress are inherent in all meaningful pursuits.

Finally, Dr. Fields offers clear advice: take graduate education seriously, resist the urge to just "check the box," and prioritize real learning over simply accumulating credentials. Understand your limits, be honest with yourself about your capacity, and remember—it's okay if your path takes a little longer.

Ready for candid insights, practical tips, and a big dose of inspiration? Listen to the full episode to hear Dr. Rita Fields' journey and discover how you, too, can chart your own successful grad school path—even when it gets tough.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:06]:
experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]:
Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week we are on a journey together. It's really important that you know that this is not a— always a— going to be a linear path. It may be a little bit circuitous. You may end up coming and going and getting different types of educational experiences along the way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:36]:
But hopefully you've done that work to be able to know what your goal is, and you find ways to be able to hit those benchmarks along the way to be able to help you to keep moving toward the goals that you have set for yourself. Every week I love being able to introduce you to new people with different experiences that have all had their own experiences in graduate school, And they're here to share that experience with you so that you can build some tools for your toolbox to help you in that journey that you're on. Today we got another great guest. Dr. Rita Fields is with us today. And Dr. Fields is a lecturer for— at the University of Michigan Flint. That basically means she's been teaching classes for a bit and she teaches a number of different areas within our School of Management.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:26]:
And I'm really excited to be able to have her here to be able to talk to you about her experiences to have her here on the show this week. Dr. Fields, thanks so much for being here.

Dr. Rita Fields [00:01:38]:
You're so welcome. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:40]:
I am really excited to be able to have you here and to talk about your own journey. And I know I love starting the show with an opportunity to turn the clock back in time. I know that you did your bachelor's degree down at Marygrove College in Detroit, and I know that at that time you got a Bachelor of Arts in English and Psychology. And then you went out, you got some experience, and along the way, at some point during that time that you were working, getting different experiences, you made a decision. You made a decision that you were going to go back to school and get a graduate degree. Take me back to that point. And what made it the right time, the right place for you to say, now I'm going to go back, I'm going to get that next part of my education? And, and take me back and talk to me about that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:29]:
Yeah, so that's interesting. I don't know if I've ever thought about that time isolated in the way that you just described. But when I decided to go back for my master's degree, I had a son who was 8, maybe? Somewhere along there? When I got my undergrad degree, he turned 5. And so it was about a couple years later-ish. And I had decided that I really appreciated and loved my undergraduate education at Marygrove, absolutely adored it, and that perhaps I should further myself to open more opportunities up for myself and to learn how far I could advance. At that point, I was already within my chosen field of human resources, and so I decided to go back to school to get a master's in human resources. And I was really grateful to do it. I'd read a lot about the program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:30]:
I understood that there was— and, and came to confirm for myself that there's a huge difference between graduate school and undergrad. So I was really excited to embark on that journey. And it was a— it was good timing for me when I decided to go back.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:47]:
Now, I know you just said that you loved your experience as an undergrad, so that probably played into why you decided to get that master's degree at Marygrove College. Were there any other mitigating factors when you were looking at whether you wanted to go back to Marygrove, which is where you ended up deciding to go, or if you were considering other schools? And if so, what were you looking for in a program that you ultimately then decided on attending?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:13]:
So yes, I did decide to stay at Marygrove, and I, I'll be honest, it was really nice. To contemplate getting that advanced degree in an environment that I was always really— always— I was already really comfortable with. So that was a huge selling point for me, that I understood the campus, I understood the way things worked, I knew the services that were available. Because I did have a young child at the time, I also knew that I had the ability to have childcare services if I had evening classes. So there were lots of elements of the campus that were very attractive to me. In terms of the degree program itself, I really wanted a rigorous program that allowed me to delve deeper into the wide expanse of knowledge that is human resources. Human resources is a very broad field, and so I wanted to make sure that I had a program that exposed me to people who were in the field, who were diverse and who would allow me to further my own professional life in such a way that the, the learning of the material would complement my practical application day to day. So I was really fortunate in that way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:39]:
Now, down the road, you finished that degree and then you went and worked some more. You got some other experiences and down the road you said, I'm still not done, I'm going to keep going back. And this time I want to go and get a terminal degree. And I guess bring me back to that point. What was going on in your career? What was going through your head as you were saying to yourself, I'm not done, I want to continue and I want to keep pushing myself forward in this way?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:05]:
So when I decided to go back for my doctorate, I was well into my career at that time. I was an executive actually, and I worked at Henry Ford Health System., and I was about to accept a position to open on the operational team to open their, their new hospital, which was Henry Ford West Bloomfield Hospital. So this was a couple— about a year or so before I went into that process. And I have to tell you, this might sound weird, but the reason I decided to go on to get my doctorate is because I just wanted to see what I could do intellectually. I, I'll bet you don't know this, I was a high school dropout. And so I was someone who— I left school the first day of my 12th grade year and I had a very tumultuous experience, but eventually I went back to school and I learned how incredibly important it was for me to maximize my learning potential and that, that helped me to deal with things that happened in my life that I didn't have any control over. But if I could figure out a way to understand it, if I could figure out a way to wrap my mind around how to procedurally advance in my career and to really delve deeply into what the possibilities were in my mind. I know that might sound weird or super nerdy or both, but that's really what initially made me think about it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:40]:
I did take quite a bit of time trying to determine the type of program that I would go into. I knew I did not want a PhD. I know that's— I'm going to get some smoke about that, but I did not want a traditional PhD The thing that drew me to my program was the fact that it was a Doctor of Management, so it's a terminal degree. So it's still a doctorate, but it's not theoretically grounded, it's more grounded in practical application. So I fell in love with the program. I met amazing people. It was a cohort program. It is definitely the most difficult time I've ever had academically.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:22]:
It stretched me into intellectually beyond what I thought I was going to be able to do. And at a couple of points in the very beginning and right before I ended my coursework, I wondered if I was gonna be able to do it. It was just so difficult. I have one textbook that I still remember the COVID and the name of the book to this day. I literally read that book 4 times. I still have no idea what it was talking about. But I— so I got that weird thing that I wanted to get where I wanted to sort of see like, what— how far can I push myself intellectually? I definitely solved that question for myself with that doctorate degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:06]:
So now at every level of education, as you're transitioning into that degree and transitioning through that degree, there are transitions going from being an undergraduate student into a master's degree, a master's degree to a doctorate, the faculty require different things, they expect different things. And as a student, you have to be able to perform, you have to be able to lift yourself up to the level that you're being challenged to be at. So as you are going— as you went through those own— your own transitions for yourself, talk to me about what you had to do as you transitioned into those programs, and what did you have to do— going through the programs to be able to continue and maintain that success throughout the entire journey? And let me put one other caveat on it is because you did two other degrees, how was it different between what you had to do at the master's level and what you had to do at the doctorate level?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:00]:
First of all, I always tell my students that there are differences in the levels of education. So when you go into the undergraduate environment, it's it's really about being able to complete what you start, right? I think that's why a lot more people start undergrad degrees than finish them. Like, dramatically more people start than finish. And so merely finishing a multi-year course is really impressive and somewhat rare, unfortunately. I, I wish it were more common, but it is not because you have to go through remaining committed. The undergrad degree experience is normally much more rich with courses that aren't necessarily tied to your major, but they're supposed to round you out a bit. That's the way that I would describe it. Your master's degree is really like a deep, concentrated deep dive.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:55]:
So it's like, um, it's like straight broth with no water added. It's just undiluted major. So hopefully you like that major. If not, you're really gonna get irritated really, really quickly. And then the master's degree, I try to explain to my students is like— the difference between that and the undergrad degree is that an undergrad degree, you pretty much have to prove that you can take in information and that you have digested that information and give it back in some form. The master's degree, in my experience, is that you're able to take in information, to digest it, and then perhaps to analyze it from different perspectives. Is there a different way to look at this? Is there anything missing from that? The doctorate degree is at the pinnacle of the learning ladder because you not only have to take in the information, analyze it, resource it, you have to go through some type of a vetting process where you make sure that the doctoral level, uh, or the information that you're learning at the doctoral level, is that valid? You have to determine whether or not you are looking at seminal leaders within your particular field and, and what they said, and is there anything that's missing? So it's having to digest information to a point where you could potentially get to the point— well, not even potentially, but you could get to the point, because once you defend your dissertation, you should be an expert at your topic, where you could teach that topic. And when you are able to fully teach, you are able to show the different complexities and nuances that are really inherent in any topic that you want to explore.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:40]:
So I think that— but in terms of your final bit, in terms of how I tried to prepare myself for each level, I think when I went into my master's degree program, I still had the undergraduate mindset. And so I was able to relax a bit because I was— everybody in class was interested in the same master's degree. So there wasn't quite as much diversity in terms of experience. We all sort of worked in the same field. And so it was almost like this really beautiful sense of camaraderie that I got because at the master's level, that's really what that's about. At the doctorate level, it's pretty much like you're on your own. Like, you're— like, let's just say you're this, this— your mom has puppies and the puppies are the other people in your cohort, and she sort of leaves you outside in the storm for like 5 years. That's, that's pretty much what it feels like.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:31]:
You have to figure stuff out yourself No one is going to come and check on you. I remember registering for writing semesters for my doctorate and there were no instructors. I just had to pay to write it, which I thought was absolutely insane. The level of support mechanisms start to diminish a bit because you're moving into this space where you should be more self-directed. And by the time you get to your doctoral level, that's also probably why there are people who are ABD for 25 5 years, which is not something to brag about, by the way. The only time it's great is when you're ABD right before you finish it. After that, it's like, oh, you— so you never finished, huh? So it's really, really hard, and you have to be internally motivated. And so it really taught me how to keep myself on pace and to become even more organized and really respect the journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:30]:
I will say that in my own doctorate experience, I will say that if you're in a doctorate program with a cohort for your coursework, those individuals do become a core group and they do tend to push you along through the coursework and support you. It's after you get out of the main coursework and as Dr. Fields was talking about, you get into that writing, there's a lot more self-push that has to happen. Doesn't mean that your cohort doesn't check in every once in a while because sometimes they will and be like, hey, where's everybody? But that being said, it becomes much more on you. And you and your dissertation chair in having a conversation and being able to set benchmarks and make sure that you keep pushing yourself to meet the benchmarks so that you don't remain, as Dr. Field says, ABD. I always say ABD is all but done, and that's true because it's all but dissertation, but ABD also could mean all but done, and you don't want to end up ABD. You want to end up finished with a degree in hand, especially if you're putting the time and effort in.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:37]:
Now, One of the things that I hear from a lot of students as they go— are moving into a master's degree, a doctorate degree, as they go through these degrees, is that there is a point in time where they have self-doubt. There's a point in time where they feel, I'm going to say, imposter syndrome, where they may question and say, am I good enough? Should I be here? Why did they select me? Talk to me about how that self-doubt or imposter syndrome crept into your own experiences. In graduate school? And what did you do? And how did you deal with that as you were going through your own programs?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:10]:
I'm gonna be honest with you, I didn't experience imposter syndrome. And it could be because when I took the GMAT, which was a requirement for my doctoral program, I passed the writing part within the 5th percentile or something, did really, really well with writing, and I bombed pretty much the rest of the thing. I mean, like, I just totally— and I was like, well, you know, hey, we can't all be perfect at everything. And So I was aware of that from the very beginning. I knew I could write. I knew I was very good at reading and context. And I knew that even though my doctorate was a business degree, my master's was a business degree too, but my doctorate was, was much more intensive in, in the business curriculum. So I knew that if I could get past all of the courses in econ and the other deep strategic courses that were part of my doctoral curriculum that I could write my dissertation.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:10]:
So I viewed it from that perspective. So I never felt like I didn't belong there. I always felt like I represented the liberal art faction because both of my undergraduate degrees were in liberal arts. I had written so many papers I'd lost count. So I was very comfortable from that vantage point, but I also had members of my cohort who were diehard practitioners, who had been in the business world for a very long time, who maybe didn't read as many books, but they had very different experiences. Where I think I was most challenged in my degree was towards the end. It was probably right before I wrapped up completing all of my coursework, which for those of you who aren't aware— well, in my program anyway, you had to go go through 2 years of coursework, and then I went through 3 years of writing my dissertation. 3 years, y'all, not 3 months.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:08]:
It took 3 full years of writing. But right before I completed my coursework, I was an executive at Henry Ford Health System, and we were opening a hospital, and it was getting really, really tight. There was so much work that goes into that, so many meetings, So many late nights. I happened to be going through a divorce at the same time, which in and of itself is— can be extremely traumatic. It's very tiresome. And I was— I was supposedly wrapping up my coursework, and I remember thinking to myself, I don't know if I can do this. I think I might have to drop out. And I thought about it for a little while, and then I asked myself, would you be okay with yourself in 5 years if you dropped out now? And I wisely answered to myself that I would not be okay if I did that, and then I was gonna do everything that I could.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:07]:
So I had to really double down on my boundary setting. I had to double down on devoting time to study because we had our qualifying exams, which are these major tests that you get during the doctorate. We had them So my coursework was 2 years. I had one set at the end of the first year and one set at the end of the second year, and they were so difficult. I still remember one of the questions, and the answer to the question was 22 pages handwritten in a book. It was insane. If I told you the question, you would get angry about it. Don't— I think about it, it makes me mad.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:40]:
But so I had to buckle down, I had to study it. My doctoral program was the first time I ever really had to to study. I know that sounds like a flex, but it's not cool to find out that you don't know how to study when you're in your doctoral program. Um, other than that, I, you know, I read a lot, and I, you know, I was really good at context. So I, I would have to create ways to force myself to retain lots of information in the midst of all of these professional and personal challenges. So that was the time at which I thought I might drop out. I'm so incredibly grateful that I did not. I pushed through, and it is the only B+ on my doctoral transcript, which, you know, I tell students also all the time, you know, people are so into their grades.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:27]:
I'm like, look, let me tell you something, grades matter, but sometimes you might have a B+— like, that B+ on my transcript is my proudest grade because I was going to quit and I didn't, and I did the absolute very best I could under incredible circumstances. And I pulled out a B+. So I'm good with it. So that, that would be my— but yes, I'm— it's certainly not unusual to feel those types of challenges. And quite frankly, even though I was in a cohort and it was wonderful, and I'm still friends with a lot of the people that were in my cohort to this day, we also had several people drop out. So that's not exactly motivating when you're sitting with a group of 11 people and then 3 of them say, you know what, this is insane, I'm not doing it. You sort of wonder Are they crazy or am I crazy? I mean, so it was, it was, uh, complicated, but thankfully it worked out in the end.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:24]:
Now I know that you were working while you were going through these type of programs, and that takes a lot of balance in being able to wear the multiple hats that you wear to be able to be there for the people around you, the friends, the family, and more, as well as to be the employee, the student, et cetera. So talk to me about balance, what you had to do to be able to find that optimal balance, whatever that definition is, and what were some of the things that you had to do to be able to maintain that throughout your different graduate school experiences?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:00]:
Yeah, that's a great question. So I believe very strongly in having boundaries, and I know that's something that a lot of people struggle with. I'm not typically one of those people, and I really learned how to do that in graduate school. When you're— in graduate school and there are so many things, particularly as you get closer to the end. As my students may recall, I often refer to it as senioritis. You think, oh, I'm almost done, like, this is gonna— I'm gonna skate my way through. That's sort of where a lot of people fall off, right? Because they are really close to the end, and you do not want to get that close to the end and then sort of flake out. So I was really good at boundary setting when I graduated with my master's degree is when I got married the first time, and I actually told my fiancé at the time that I was not going to be able to plan our wedding.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:51]:
So if he wanted to get married, he could either wait until I got my master's or he could plan it himself. And so he chose B, which was fine with me. I picked the dress and then I showed up. So I think you have to be honest with people in your life that there are a lot of things going on. You have to Have those boundaries. But I also think it's really important to give yourself periods where you just sort of rest and take a break. You can't just plow through everything and assume that you're a robot. It will not happen.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:23]:
Your body will literally shut down on you, and you could get really sick. I actually got sick after each of my qualifying exams, like really sick. And so I became much more aware of building for myself a carrot versus carrots stick system, which in the industry basically means something that you like— which is weird because I hate carrots— versus something that you don't like, like the stick, to like, you know, be somewhat punitive. So I would allow myself to enjoy certain things and give myself a break, and then I would get back to work. So I think it's really important to have a support system in your life where people are going to let you know that you're doing well and that you can continue to do but even if no one does say that, I think it's really important for you to understand that for yourself because at the

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:15]:
end of the day, you're the one doing the work. You definitely are doing the work and it, it will be challenging as you go through and you'll be pushed in many different ways. And there's times in which you may even have points of burnout where you're, you're chugging along and you're working hard and, and you hit that proverbial wall for yourself. Talk to me about burnout for yourself and how did you avoid burnout or recover from it when you felt overwhelmed?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:44]:
Oh yeah, I definitely experienced burnout. I'm pretty good at managing boundaries, but being able to manage boundaries doesn't inoculate you from having to feel the effects of stress. So I crashed a couple times. I remember at one point during— I'm— the most difficult, well, during my master's degree, I actually had to take a year off from my master's degree because a member of my family had a mental mental health crisis that was incredibly serious, and I was the person that had to manage it, and I simply could not balance everything. So I actually did have to step away. I did come back, but that was very significant because typically master's degrees are 2 years, so that's a long time. And for my doctorate degree, I didn't drop out, but because I had so many things going on, I remember I ended up— I don't want to scare anybody, but I ended up in the the emergency room once. I lost hair.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:48]:
I would sit and my hands would be shaking like I was on a roller coaster ride. I was deeply stressed. And as much as it was uncomfortable, obviously, what I learned from that was how deeply connected my mental state was to my physical state. And that even if in my mind I could write off sort of dealing with things— I had a very high tolerance for the machinations of life— I really still had to take care of my body. I had to make sure I drank enough water. I had to make sure that I slept. I had to make sure that I tried to nurture myself as much as possible. I, I don't know if it's possible to avoid burnout in any situation that is worth having.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:37]:
—right? And so if you think of eustress versus stress, which some have characterized as positive stress, if you get married, you're going to be burnt out. If you have kids, you're going to be burnt out. If you have a dog, you're going to get burnt out. So it makes sense that the things worth having also have an accompanying amount of stress associated with it. I think being kind to yourself and really dedicating yourself towards recovery is the

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:04]:
key to get past it. It is hard, and I'm not saying that to scare anyone off from grad school. There are going to be times that are going to be harder than others, but in anything that is worth doing, there will be times that will be harder than others, whether that's education, your work, your family, your friends, you know, no matter what, as you go through life, you know this, and it is definitely going to be the case in grad school as well. Now, I guess Dr. Fields, as you think back to your graduate experience and you think about others that are thinking about graduate school and you think about success and things that they can do to be successful, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:49]:
I think take it seriously. You really need to take it seriously. I am not an advocate of check the box degree accumulation. You want to learn. And as I often also say to my students, I had a dear, cherished professor who said to me once that learning is the attachment of meaning to otherwise useless information. And so that has never failed in being true in my life. And so it's really important to understand that you are supposed to learn this information, um, and that that will help you. It, it will not help you if you don't do that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:29]:
And there's so many different ways that people try to cut corners that they just try to push past the learning experience. I can tell you as someone who has hired literally thousands of people in my career, people who are differentiated in the work environment are people who are conscientious about what they do. And so if you apply that to your learning, you can only benefit from that. I am an educated person, not just because I have degrees on the wall, but because I learned the material and that, that exercise of learning, it's one of the most valuable things that I have. And so I would encourage people to do that. I know that might sound very basic, but that is pretty clutch. The other thing that I would do is encourage you to be honest with yourself about your capabilities. I think sometimes people take a lot of classes and they really shouldn't take a lot of classes in that particular term because they've got a lot of stuff going on, and it doesn't go well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:32]:
And you— one could assume that it's not gonna go well if you have like a newborn baby and you decide to take 7 classes. Those things don't tend to mix. So think through what you're capable of doing, and if it takes you a little bit longer, then it takes you a little bit longer. When I was in undergrad, you know, I got my degree in 4 years, my undergrad degree, and that was like the standard. Now I hear that it's 5 to 6 or more, right? I mean, that's for undergrad degree, let alone master's degrees or, or doctoral degrees. And so I think you have to be kind to yourself because being kind to yourself in terms of your true time commitment will make the learning experience an easier, more beneficial one for you as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:15]:
Well, Dr. Fields, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your journey today, for sharing your pieces of advice and everything that shared with our listeners today. I know that this journey, like I said, is not a circu— it's a circuitous path. It is not a straight line. And as you said in yours, you definitely had some curves along the way, but you made it and you were successful. And I appreciate you sharing that journey with us and for helping others to be able to maneuver that path for themselves.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:45]:
And I wish you all the best. Thank you so much. And thank you for having me and go blue.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:49]:
The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan-Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

Are you considering taking the next big step in your educational journey? Whether you're just starting to think about graduate school or already knee-deep in your studies, the latest episode of "Victors in Grad School" is packed with insights you won't want to miss.

In this episode, Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Steven Foster, Director of Financial Aid at the University of Michigan Flint, to discuss what it truly takes to thrive in graduate school. Their lively conversation weaves through Steven's personal journey—from earning his bachelor's in English Language and Literature, jumping straight into the workforce, and then making the pivotal decision to return for his master's in Educational Leadership at Wayne State University.

One major theme is the importance of having a clear motivation for pursuing graduate studies. As Steven Foster shares, his return to school was sparked by an early realization that additional credentials would be crucial for career advancement and personal growth. This combination of upward and social mobility, practical experience, and a passion for educational outreach shaped his path and success (02:16).

Discipline, curiosity, and organization are highlighted as the bedrock skills for anyone navigating graduate school. Steven Foster emphasizes that being disciplined and staying organized are essential, especially when juggling work and academic responsibilities (06:45). He notes, "Being disciplined, being curious, being open… those skill sets are extremely important in your journey."

Another key takeaway is the role of community and support systems. Graduate school can be overwhelming, and imposter syndrome is a common stumbling block. Steven Foster candidly discusses how self-awareness, open communication, and fostering connections with peers and mentors can provide the reassurance and encouragement needed to push through challenging moments (10:30).

Listeners will find practical advice throughout, from evaluating graduate programs and career prospects to leveraging faculty relationships and embracing opportunities for professional and personal development. Steven Foster encourages prospective students to research institutions thoroughly and think beyond just degree requirements—consider how the experience can open doors to consulting, teaching, volunteering, and more (17:03).

If you're seeking inspiration, reassurance, or actionable tips for your graduate school journey, this episode is for you. Tune in and let Steven Foster and Dr. Christopher Lewis guide you through the path to graduate school success—because your journey is uniquely yours, and with the right tools and mindset, you can be victorious too!

Click here to listen and start your journey to grad school success today!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]:
Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, we are on a journey together, and I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. You are on a unique journey, something that you are going to be going through, whether you're at the very beginning and just starting to think about graduate school, or maybe you've applied, maybe, maybe you've been accepted. You could be in any of these places, you could even be in graduate school. But throughout all of this, you are on a journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:44]:
And through this journey, there are things that you can do to be able to help you to be successful along the way. And that's why this show exists. Every week I love being able to bring you different pieces of advice, different thoughts, different perspectives, and also different people that have gone before you to be able to give you some perspectives on their own experience going through graduate school. This week we got another great guest. Stephen Foster is with us, and Stephen is the Director of Financial Aid at the University of Michigan Flint. And I'm really excited to be able to have him here to tell you about his own experiences going through graduate school. And to welcome him to the show. Stephen, thanks so much for being here.

Steven Foster [00:01:24]:
Thank you, Kris, for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:25]:
I am really excited to be able to have you. And one of the first things that I love doing is turning the clock back in time, and I want to go back a little ways because I know you did your undergraduate work, and after you went through that experience and got that Bachelor of Arts in English Language and Literature, you went off and got a job. You went off and worked, and you jumped into the world of financial aid.

Steven Foster [00:01:49]:
I did.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:50]:
And you never looked back. But one of One of the things that I want to do is ask you about this point in time, because there was a point in time that you were working, you're out there, but at some point you had this inkling that you needed to go back. You wanted to continue. You had to scratch that itch for going back and getting more education. And I guess bring me back to that point and what made you decide that that was the right time, the right place?

Steven Foster [00:02:16]:
You know, thank you, Kris, and I'm excited to be here just to share some of my experiences. And I did receive my undergrad from University of Michigan, graduated with my master's in educational leadership from Wayne State University. And what really inspired the additional need for education is I knew that at one point in my career I was going to need it for that upward mobility, that social mobility, and having the credential, right, makes it a little bit easier, right, to give you the practical hands-on experience, to give you the theoretical aspect side, educational leadership research, to give you the technical pieces that you need to be a, a successful administrator and leader. So I knew that early on in my career because I actually started my graduate program and my graduate work about 2 to 3 semesters out from my undergrad after graduating. So I knew, I just knew early on that, hey, I need this credential, I'm going to need this credential along the way to help me to advance. And so I went to work during the day, and as soon as I was done at work during the day, I would go right into classes in the evening. And I guess early on it helped me because I still had some level of discipline as a student from my undergraduate experience. So I think that helped me a little bit along.

Steven Foster [00:03:49]:
The way in order to help me to, to push through to my master's to completion.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:54]:
Now, I know you did your master's degree at Wayne State University and you got a Master of Education in Educational Leadership and Administration, and there are a lot of programs that are in the Master of Ed space and you chose Wayne State. So bring me back to that point. And when you were thinking about looking at, you know, pers— all the different prospective universities, what made you decide on Wayne State University? What made it stand out? And talk to me about that process for yourself.

Steven Foster [00:04:23]:
Yes. So I was looking at several programs and I really wanted to go into education. I wanted to go back in— I wanted to go in a K-12 setting. So I actually was looking at master's for teacher certification programs and I was looking at the University of Michigan. I also was looking at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill. I looked at Michigan State University and ultimately landed at Wayne State University for actually selfish reasons. It was a tremendous benefit called, uh, educational benefit, and it kind of altered my plans from, uh, going into the classroom and really finding my passion in the higher education side of, of education where I could affect change, where I could help students— be that bridge and bridge that gap to students to promote higher education and to promote education from a different lens, um, besides going into the classroom. So that's what kind of detoured me.

Steven Foster [00:05:29]:
It was actually the benefit of getting my degree paid for, but also I really got a passion for educating students how to think about college affordability, how to think about college finance, and how to plan for college, how to be successful in college and looking at higher ed. From the outreach side of things and being a bridge and being a spokesperson about the many benefits of receiving a higher education degree can bring to students and their families.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:02]:
Now, going from undergrad to grad, you said that it had been a few terms out from when you graduated to when you started. And when you go into a graduate program, there definitely is a transition because it's a different way of being taught, a different— level of expectations by faculty members and a different level of expectation on yourself for what you're trying to achieve. So talk to me about those transitions. And as you transitioned into graduate school and through graduate school, what did you have to do to be able to set yourself up for success? And what did you add to— have to do to be able to maintain that success throughout the graduate school journey?

Steven Foster [00:06:45]:
The biggest thing, or the number one thing that comes to my mind, is being disciplined. Being disciplined, being curious, being, being open. Because when you go undergrad or grad, I think grad is, uh, of course, higher thought processes. It's a lot of reading, it's a lot of theory, it's a lot of hands-on practice. So a combination of all of that, but being disciplined and organized. Those skill sets are extremely important in in your journey, definitely if you're transitioning back into the grad space after you've been out of school a number of years, staying on top of your assignments, staying on top of your reading, asking questions. You know the saying, there's no such thing as a dumb question, right? But having that intellectual curiosity that there are many different paths to ultimately get to where you want to be, but how you actually perceive the world of, of grad school, whatever your discipline is of study. It could be health sciences or education, social work or business, that there is some level of curiosity and exploration in coming to find out where are you the master at? What is your subject matter expertise? What are those things that interest you to where you say, I'm going to be the subject matter expert in this? It just opens your doors for possibilities to so many things.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:12]:
You know, as you talk about that, you know, you're working on a master's degree and there's some internal thought that when you are being admitted into a master's program, you are becoming a master of something, which is sometimes a little dodging when you think about it to be called, eh, I'm the master of nothing. I'm a master of none. I guess when you went into that master's degree and as you're going through this coursework and you're seeing yourself in a different way, talk to me about that transition for yourself as an individual and as a professional and how that graduate degree helped you to either refine or redefine who you were at the time and who you were becoming?

Steven Foster [00:08:53]:
I think for me, and that— I think that's an excellent question. I think that it actually allowed me to refine, but not only refine, it's so many aspects to a master's degree and to graduate education that depending on what class you are taking or depending on what season you are in, in your life and how it benefits you in that moment. So for me, because I was so early on in my career, it allowed me to kind of shape how I wanted to be perceived as a professional. It kind of shaped my modus operandi in order to be an asset and be beneficial to all of the families that I serve and, you know, faculty working with different constituencies in higher education, working— how do you have conversations with Congress versus your faculty? And, you know, dealing with some of the nuances of how do you handle a sensitive student case to a parent that just wants basic information. So it gives you a breadth and a depth in order for you how to be successful, right? And how to apply the knowledge that you acquire.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:00]:
Now, every individual, as they're thinking about graduate school, as they're going through graduate school, ends up hitting a point in time where whether it's you're seeing yourself as a master of something or you are just going through that first course where you feel that imposter syndrome and you go through this process of questioning, "Should I be here? Am I good enough?" All of those different thoughts that go through your head. Talk to me about how imposter syndrome impacted you and what you had to do to get through it.

Steven Foster [00:10:30]:
At points in all of our careers in education, as, as we're matriculating into degree programs, you know, on our jobs and our careers, maybe even in our households, there is always a bit of self-doubt in us. I could have handled that situation better, or how could I have accomplished that in a different manner? So I think that we have imposter syndrome across everything that we do, whether it's a volunteer experience, professional experience, personal experience. But for me, how I really overcame it was through self-awareness. But not also self-awareness, it's really also grasping on to like individuals. So a lot of times you're in classes with the same people. A lot of programs are cohort-based. My program was not necessarily cohort-based, but really having those conversations and building support systems to help you through. Sometimes you have to talk stuff through with a gamut of people.

Steven Foster [00:11:33]:
That could be your classmate, it could be your spouse, it could be your therapist, it could be your faculty your lead, or, you know, your advisor, or those things. So it's those people that help you along the way to be successful, but to also ground you and reel you back in when you need that reassurance. So my word of advice to people is don't be afraid to talk about the challenges that you are having. If you're in a grad program, or if you're in that space that you feel that imposter syndrome, you probably need to get it out, to express yourself, to make you feel a little bit and tackle it head on so that you don't continue to— some people, you know, beat, beat themselves up, not literally, but from that perspective. But talk to someone because someone else is also in your same shoes. And that's what I did. Latched on to some of my classmates, made sure, you know, we had regular conversations, you know, healthy debate about the work, about the assignments, about, you know, some of the challenges that we were experiencing in order to be successful. And, uh, one of the things is I was also— I was somewhat younger than some of my classmates at the time.

Steven Foster [00:12:45]:
I'm a little bit older now, but that wasn't the case when I started my master's program. I was in a class with professionals who had been working 20, 30 years at that point, and they were just starting to come back for their credential, right, for their upward mobility. And here I am, this young, spry kid coming in on the scene, and I'm in these rooms with people people who have double and triple the experience that I have, what am— how can I ever bring the value and knowledge of the experiences that, that they have? So it is a— it can be an overwhelming process, but you just have to get in where you fit in is the perfect way for me to put it. You don't have to try to over, um, outdo or outshine. Based on the little experience that I had, I still was able to contribute to the conversation in a meaningful and way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:40]:
Now, as you think back to the beginning, before you even started graduate school, I'm sure you had some conversations with friends, with colleagues, with others that could give you their own perspectives. And if you think back to that very beginning, what's something that you wish that someone had told you, or that you had known prior to starting graduate school that would have helped you to make that transition even better?

Steven Foster [00:14:02]:
I really do believe that it was just a little bit different for me because I was passionate about education. I was getting— I had hands-on work experience. I was, I was still working and going to school. So it wasn't like I wasn't working and only going to school or went straight through. I was able to apply what I was learning in my actual day-to-day. That made my experience even more successful or more better for me as I was talking to professors and things of that nature. Definitely at the University of Michigan Ann Arbor at the time, you know, and advisors and things of that nature, their thought process was learning experience is, it's an ongoing process, right? That curiosity for exploration and for learning is important. So they, they stress the importance of, if this is the path you want to take, you have to do this, or you have to do that.

Steven Foster [00:14:55]:
So they were actually my biggest cheerleaders in making sure that I was successful in my on-ramp to my grad program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:02]:
Well, it's always good to have those mentors and those people that help you to maneuver into figure things out along the way. And you also build relationships with faculty along the way as well. Talk to me about those relationships that you were able to build with faculty or with peers inside of your program. And how was that impactful in the experience that you went through?

Steven Foster [00:15:26]:
My relationship with my faculty advisor was, was tremendous because I was able to meet with them on a regular basis and have thoughtful conversation about what is it that I can do with this credential, what What paths make sense for me from a career perspective? What are the different things that I can do outside of my career? You know, what, what does it mean to go in consulting? I always think that ultimately I wanted to go and be a professor. I have started a PhD a while ago and opportunity came along and I put that on pause, but it's always the, the opportunity for them to share their experiences and based on the skills assets that you have, them to kind of guide you through some of those things. And that's what I'll always appreciate about definitely some of the faculty that I have connected with on a basis as a student, that they are always trying to get the best out of you, whatever that is for you as an individual. It's not, you know, they're not selling anything, they're not selling you any fairy dust and unicorns or anything like that, but they're trying to get the best out of their students. And that was the experience that I had.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:42]:
And I guess finally, as you look back on your own experience, you were successful in the journey that you went through. And as you think back, I guess, to the entire experience and you look at where you are today and you think about people that are thinking about going to graduate school for themselves, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Steven Foster [00:17:03]:
Some tips is research your institutions. Research your programs, look at the viable career paths that you want to go into, and look at the plan B or look at the— what's the side hustle that I can do from this degree that will produce additional streams of revenue, additional income based on the degree that you do have? Opportunities for consulting, opportunities for part-time or work from home opportunities from whatever the deal degree program is because for me, graduate education, it opens the door even more to more possibilities than your bachelor's degree a lot of times. And that upward mobility and that social mobility is very important for our students that we serve. So you want to make sure that this is something that you're truly passionate about, but that it opens other doors and opportunities for you to get the best well-rounded experiences that you need in order to be successful, maybe in your main career. But there are also branches that shoot off from that main career— speaking engagement, teaching opportunities, professorships, consulting opportunities, volunteer opportunities on boards and different things of that nature in order to help nonprofits and stuff grow depending on whatever your discipline is. So you're volunteer, you're professional. Experience, your community experience, all of that makes you a well-rounded person. And it gives us a personal ethos for us to be change agents in that you are in the world to shed your light and shed your experience in whatever direction that is and works best for you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:45]:
Well, Stephen, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. And, you know, I'm going to continue to encourage you now that I know that you started a PhD to keep going. I'm looking— not to stop out, but always keep going, always keep pursuing, and don't, and don't give up.

Steven Foster [00:19:01]:
Absolutely.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:02]:
So that being said, I thank you for your time today, and I wish you all the best.

Steven Foster [00:19:06]:
Thank you, Dr. Lewis. I appreciate you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:08]:
The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

Are you considering graduate school or seeking inspiration for your academic journey? This week's episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast is a must-listen. Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan-Flint, the show features a rich conversation with Dr. George White, Professor of Strategic Management and Director of the Doctorate in Business Administration Program at UM-Flint.

The episode opens with Dr. George White sharing his unique educational path, beginning as the first in his family to attend college. Coming from a rural, modest background, his story starts with working night shifts and attending a community college in Alabama. He highlights how determination and hard work paved his way to the University of Alabama and later, a life-changing exposure to Asian history and culture.

A key theme of the podcast is the role of inspiration and mentorship. Dr. George White recalls the professors who encouraged his academic curiosity and opened doors to opportunities abroad, including studying in Taiwan and teaching English in Asia. This global perspective led him to pursue a law degree, and later, an LLM in International Commercial Law.

Throughout the interview, listeners hear about the importance of having a clear plan and passion for your studies. Dr. George White emphasizes that success in graduate school isn't about being the smartest person in the room — it's about hard work, dedication, and being genuinely excited about what you're learning. He also opens up about his experiences consulting and teaching in China, which inspired him to further pursue an MBA and a PhD in International Business.

The episode is filled with actionable advice for prospective graduate students: develop a five- or ten-year plan, engage with your professors, and choose a program that aligns with your interests and career goals. Time management and perseverance are repeatedly highlighted as essential ingredients for success.

If you're seeking inspiration from someone who's charted a truly international, interdisciplinary career — leveraging degrees in history, law, and business — this episode is sure to motivate you. Tune in to "Victors in Grad School" and learn how passion, planning, and relentless hard work can help you thrive on the path to academic and professional achievement.

Ready to be inspired? Listen now and prepare to embark on your own journey as a victor in grad school!

 

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:
Welcome to the Victors in Grad School.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:03]:
Where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]:
Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week we have an opportunity. We have an opportunity to work together to help you define success in this journey that you're on. And it is a journey. Every person that is thinking about graduate school, that is in graduate school, has a unique journey that you will follow for yourself as you move forward and through that experience.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:42]:
And though it may be unique, there are commonalities that most every person goes through as they go through that graduate school journey that you can start planning for right now. And that's what this podcast is all about. It's all about helping you to find ways to be able to be successful in this journey and find tips, tactics, et cetera, things that can help you to find success sooner. That's why every week I love being able to have different people, new people on, to share their own experience. And today we have another great guest. Dr. George White is with us. And George is a professor at the University of Michigan, Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:24]:
He's a professor of Strategic Management and the director of the Doctorate in Business Administration Program here at the University of Michigan, Flint. And he's at a unique path through his own education that has led him to where he is today. So we're going to be talking to him about his own journey. George, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. George White [00:01:40]:
Hi, Chris. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:41]:
Well, I really am excited to have you here today, and I know that your journey has been one that is unique, and you have had many curves along the path. So I want to take you back in time. And I know you did your undergraduate work at the University of Alabama and you got a Bachelor of Arts degree in history. And at some point, either in your undergraduate work or after, when you started working and getting some experience, you made a decision to go back to graduate school and to get a law degree. And I'm really interested, first and foremost, for us to talk about this. And then I know you went beyond that, but bring me back to the point in which you determined for yourself that graduate school was the next step. What was going through your head?

Dr. George White [00:02:25]:
Yeah, so, oh, boy, it's very long journey for me. What happened was I'm essentially the very first kid in my immediate family to go to college. So I started off in community College at a very nice community college in Hanceville, Alabama, near Coleman, Alabama, called Hanceville Community College. And so I went there part time. I worked full time like many of the students here at um, Flint do anyhow, and actually work night shift and at a technology company producing chipboards. And then that company was paying for my education, so I would go to school during the day. So I'd get up at like 6 in the morning, study, go to school, maybe study some more, hop in the car, go work and repeat that. And I wasn't sleeping a whole lot during that time.

Dr. George White [00:03:14]:
So that sort of was my gateway into college. And just going to community college was an eye opener for me. But what happened was at a certain point I decided I wanted to be a full time student. After going through the grind of working and trying to do that and go to school part time, my family told me I could go full time to school if I wanted to do that. So I'll never forget when I applied to be accepted in the University of Alabama. When I got that acceptance letter, it was a big deal because I grew up in a very rural part of Alabama and actually was raised on a chicken farm in East Texas. So basically a farming family wasn't exposed that much to higher education. And here I am going off to the University of Alabama.

Dr. George White [00:03:55]:
My first year at Alabama, I just took classes in general. I was a history major. But what happened my senior year, I took a few courses in Asian history. I'll never forget. I took a course by a professor, his name was Lee Butler, he's actually a graduate from University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, who was a professor in the history department there. And it was on Japanese culture and coming from basically the backwoods of Alabama, you know, being a Southern redneck that really taking that course, we read books on architecture in Japan. We learned about aikabuno, you know, flower arranging, sumo wrestling. That class really was, was my first point of entry into learning about the rest of the world.

Dr. George White [00:04:36]:
And then I took another course from a professor who became my mentor, named Dr. Ronald Roble, on Korean history. And I knew nothing about Korea until I took that course. And these were during my senior year at Alabama. So what happened was I became very fascinated by Asia and just the rest of the world in general. And Dr. Robol, who I got to know quite well. I worked very hard, tried to do well in his course.

Dr. George White [00:05:01]:
He basically encouraged me to stay at Alabama and become a graduate student there. He was the director of their Asian studies program. And so I stayed there, worked under him became as a teaching assistant in the classes he was teaching and took classes in Asian studies and started studying Chinese language. Then what happened was I ended up receiving a scholarship to go study Chinese at Fengji University, which is in Taichung, Taiwan. And I did that for about a year. And studying abroad was very interesting to me. I learned quite a bit. But what I really enjoyed was going out.

Dr. George White [00:05:34]:
And there's lots of opportunities in Taiwan that teach English as a second language. You can actually make a lot of money doing that. So I started doing quite a bit of that. I taught at a night school in Taichung, and then I taught at a private kindergarten in the morning and was making a lot of money. I had, like, a little penthouse I was renting in downtown Taichung. And it was a really good life. And what happened was I was there on the scholarship, but one of my employers wanted me to essentially convert my visa status from a student to, like, a working visa. So to make a very long story short, I ended up traveling abroad to the Philippines.

Dr. George White [00:06:10]:
Bumped into my wife the first day I was in the Philippines. Left the Philippines, went back to Taiwan, realized it's going to be very difficult to get her to Taiwan because of the immigration policy. So I basically moved to the Philippines. I'd saved up a lot of money. I had this little desk in my room of the apartment I was renting. I used to shove all of my cash in that drawer. I didn't even have a bank account there. And I remember just taking all that money I'd made and I moved to the Philippines.

Dr. George White [00:06:38]:
And basically I became a beach bum in the Philippines for a little while. So got married to my wife. That's what triggered, you know, when I was in the Philippines, I'm like, I have to do something with my life, you know, I mean, who's going to hire somebody with a bachelor's degree in Asian history? And I wanted to continue on. I was very interested in learning. I enjoyed the university environment, and I wanted to continue with my education. So I wasn't good at math at that point. I haven't even thought about business. So I did what a lot of individuals do that are more qualitatively experienced and have skill sets in that area.

Dr. George White [00:07:11]:
I applied to law school, and my LSAT score for law school wasn't really that great. So there's a school here in Michigan called Cooley Law School in Lansing, which sort of has a very different admissions policy than most other law schools. They usually. They bring in a lot of students, but then they weed them out. You know, it's a very rigorous law school to go through. And what happened was they. They brought. I got accepted to Coley Law School.

Dr. George White [00:07:37]:
And that was my. My only opportunity at that point in time. Listed at some other law schools like Syracuse and other universities, because I had interesting background. But I ended up going to Cooley and I studied as a law student there and I concentrated in international law because that was at that point in time, I knew I wanted to do something international in nature. Then what happened was, in law school, I was on the journal, the editorial board for the Cooley Law Journal, which is sort of a prestigious thing in law school. And you get to learn how to edit, and it's research oriented. There was a summer course called Scholarly Writing that I took as an elective course. And I took that course and I wrote a paper and the paper was on trade in Southeast Asia.

Dr. George White [00:08:24]:
And I took the paper after I was finished with the class. I did very well in there because it was very interesting to me. I loved to do research and writing. So I was very intrinsically motivated. And when I went through that class, I knew it was something I really enjoyed. And what happened was I took that paper that I wrote for that class and I got it published in an international law journal. And I knew at that time, this is something I can do, and it's something I love to do. And so then one law degree wasn't enough.

Dr. George White [00:08:51]:
So I went and actually I went to Emory Law School and worked on an LLM, an advanced law degree in International Commercial Law. And then what happened was, when I was at Emory, this is right around the time when China was joining the WTO, back around 2000, 2001, I did not feel like I'd finished what I had started out to do in Taiwan. So I wanted to get back to Asia and sort of finish what I started there. So I started looking around for jobs to teach law in China. And one thing led to another and a major university hired me to go over to China and spend a year there. I ended up spending two years there, but they hired me to go there and to teach international law as a visiting professor. And that's how it all started. Going back to my bachelor's degree, I found something very fascinating and I wanted to continue with that.

Dr. George White [00:09:41]:
I really enjoyed learning. I enjoyed the university environment, and I was fascinated by Asia and just international stuff, and I wanted to keep continuing down that path. And then when I got the law school and I took this course on scholarly writing where I could Bring my passion into that. That's what really triggered everything for me. And I knew that's what I wanted to do moving forward with my career.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:04]:
Now a law degree is a terminal degree. You went on and got an LLM, but then a few years later you decided to keep going and getting both an MBA as well as then going and getting a PhD, another terminal degree.

Dr. George White [00:10:19]:
I got my MBA at the same time as I was working on my PhD, which is sort of rare.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:24]:
So talk to me about that and what made you decide that you wanted to continue your education to get those additional degrees beyond the terminal degrees you already had? Yeah.

Dr. George White [00:10:34]:
Okay. So very practical. I was in China at the time, you know, I, I accepted that gig to go and teach at Habenomy University again. It was right around the time when China was opening up to the rest of the world. They were much more free market oriented than they currently are. I mean, they were following the Deng Xiaoping framework of opening up and trying to develop relationship with the Western world. So there were lots of opportunities at the time for foreigners with backgrounds like myself and interests like myself to consult and do things. So what happened was I was not in Beijing or Shanghai.

Dr. George White [00:11:10]:
I was in a secondary city, a little town of only 8 million people called Shijiazhuang, which is just south of Beijing. And there were lots of opportunities because of my unique background and skillset. So I started consulting and I was consulting with law firms as a foreign expert. And then I ended up being approached by development zones to consult with them and help act as a liaison between the Chinese government and foreign companies that were coming in and investing in China. And I started basically backed into doing a lot of business consulting. And at that time I did not have any formal business background or education whatsoever. I was learning by doing, essentially. So I had a friend that was a former professor of mine at Thomas Cooley at Cooley Law School.

Dr. George White [00:11:54]:
At that time he had moved to University of Miami, but we stayed in touch. And so about once a month he would contact me and we would talk because he was doing a lot of research on China and then I was doing research on China. So he would call me up about once a month and we would chat. And I told him, you know what, I'm doing all this consulting now in China and I don't have this formal education, so I feel like I need to go and get an MBA or something. And at that time I had already started publishing a good bit. And he goes, george, George, you ought to think about going and obtaining a Ph.D. you know, joining a Ph.D. program in international business.

Dr. George White [00:12:28]:
International business, really? He goes, yes, all your research is related to international business, because I've been publishing quite a bit on international trade, foreign direct investment, and different issues related to companies operating in Asia. So I'll never forget I studied for the GMAT, which is the entrance examination for MBAs and most business graduate degrees. I studied in a library in northern China during the winter, like the winter we have right here in Michigan where there is no heat. I'll never forget that. And I actually took the GMAT in Beijing, China. And then I applied to some PhD programs and there was this new doctoral program that had just started up in international business at University of Texas at El Paso. And they accepted me. I'll never forget, forget when I received the letter and they actually called me when I was in China.

Dr. George White [00:13:17]:
When that happened, it changed my life. And so I ended up going off to spent two years in China. And after that I transitioned into the PhD program at UT El Paso, where I also earned my MBA as a general MBA in management. It was an extension of what I was already doing. I mean, I had started doing a lot of business consulting in mainland China, and I had no formal background or education. And so I was interested in learning and getting some formal education in business administration. And I ended up going and working on my PhD and then also my MBA. And to this very day, 20 years later, I'm still using leveraging my legal background and my interest in Asia in my research and what I teach and do here at Michigan Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:01]:
Now, with every degree, when you transition into those degrees, there is a transition because the way in which you're educated at the bachelor's level is different than at the master's level, is different than in law school, is different than in a PhD. Every type of school is a little bit different. Every type of academic area is going to be a little bit different. So talk to me about some of the things that you learned as you made those transitions through the different degrees that you went into and what you had to do to be able to first transition into graduate school. And what did you have to do to continue throughout the entire graduate school experience to maintain that success?

Dr. George White [00:14:42]:
Yeah, I mean, and this is something I talk to. I'm the director of our doctoral program here at the School of Management at Michigan Flint. So I'm always talking to students about this on a regular basis. You know, I think you need to have a plan. You know, I think it's the first thing you need to really have a Plan. I think the most successful students. What made me successful, I had a passion for what I wanted to do. I mean, I knew what I wanted to do and I was determined to do it no matter what.

Dr. George White [00:15:07]:
Okay, second thing, you need to have a plan. You need to have like a 5 and 10 year plan. Why am I doing this? How is this going to get me from point A to point B? And then what am I going to do? And you got to be very proactive and dedicated. I mean, for example, in all of my courses, I remember my doctoral program, my doctoral program in the law school as well, pretty much all my courses. And I was never the smartest student in any of those classes. And I'm definitely not the smartest faculty member here at the School of management neither. But one thing I can say, I worked very hard. On Fridays, I would be up studying, working on Saturdays.

Dr. George White [00:15:41]:
Whatever I had to do to be successful, I would make that happen. So I was very proactive. All the faculty knew me very well in all the programs. Starting my bachelor's all the way through, I was very proactive, interacting with the faculty members, making sure I'm doing the right thing in the classes. How can I improve what I'm doing? I was very interested in learning and I had a passion for what I was working on and a plan of why am I doing what I'm doing? Okay, I think that's very important. Also, just generally, you need to be excited about what you're working on. You know, when you select a graduate degree, I mean, I understand the practicality of choosing something that's going to help you to get from point A to point B, whether it's getting a promotion or, or moving in a new area, whatever that is. But you got to have some passion for what you're doing.

Dr. George White [00:16:25]:
I mean, at the end of the day, it's a grind. Graduate school is not easy. You got to be dedicated. It takes a lot of time and effort. You're paying a lot of money for whatever degree it is, and you got to be able to wake up in the morning and be motivated or it's just going to be much more difficult for you to be successful. So that's really what made me like, I did not enjoy law school. I did not have any fun in law school. Right.

Dr. George White [00:16:48]:
That's why I'm not a law professor. But, but I did enjoy some of the subjects that the law school had to offer, and I gravitated towards those and that's what helped me get through it. For example, like the other Graduate degrees were very different. I really had more passion for them. But at the end of the day, you got to have a passion for what you're doing. I mean, life is too short to be miserable and you got to have a plan. I think just throwing yourself into a degree program with not having a clear vision of what you plan to do, I don't think is really the right approach.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:17]:
I know you are a faculty member, you are a administrator. You've worked in higher education now for a number of years here at the University of Michigan, Flint. And I guess as you think back to the education that you received in all the different facets of the education, talk to me about how those different degrees and the different experiences that you've had have helped you to do the work that you're doing on a daily basis.

Dr. George White [00:17:40]:
That's a complex question. First of all, I feel very blessed. Position I'm in is I've worked well. My wife has to remind me that I work very hard to get where I'm at. There's this old saying, you need to run scared to be successful. And I've been running scared, meaning I've been working very hard, never thinking I'm doing enough. How can I constantly improve what I'm doing? I've been doing that for a very long time and I'm still doing it to today, even though I'm a full professor and directing a doctoral program, etc. Etc.

Dr. George White [00:18:08]:
But for me, I get this question a lot from various individuals, students in our program. Individuals are out in industry. You know, you have a law degree and you have a bachelor's in history. You know how in the world you become a professor of business. For me, it all sort of fits together. For example, my research today is on how companies strategize, you know, develop in and execute strategy in Asia. And I look at that from a legal perspective, I've sort of become like an expert in the international business and strategic management community on how the legal environment has an influence on foreign companies, multinationals operating in Asia. So I have really worked hard to try to leverage my interest and background in Asia.

Dr. George White [00:18:53]:
I go over the Asia quite a bit. You know, I mean, I. I'm a visiting professor in the Philippines and also in. In Thailand right now. And I go over there quite a bit and give seminars and talks and do research there. But so I have that from my. All the way back from my bachelor's days 30 years ago. And then my legal degree, although I'm not a lawyer right now, I use that in My research, all my research focuses on how the legal environment influences multinational strategies in Asia.

Dr. George White [00:19:20]:
And so I try to bring all of that education together in bring these insights into my class, classes that I teach. I consult on the side a little bit in Asia, doing that type of stuff. And then my research is all focused on that. But at the end of the day, I think that for anybody that has sort of a unique background, you should try and leverage that, especially if you're interested in that type of work and because that's what's going to make you unique and provide possible opportunities moving forward.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:50]:
Now I know you talk to a lot of graduate students and you work with students that are coming into your Doctorate of Business Administration program, but you have your own experiences as well. And I guess as you look back at your own experiences, not only personally, but also experiences in working with other graduate students and you think about other students that are thinking about graduate school, whether it be in business, law or some other field. What are some tips that you might want to offer other students considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. George White [00:20:22]:
I grew up in a very poor family. I remember my mom, she worked as a waitress at Pizza Hut. This is back when Pizza Hut was actually really good, when people would go and eat in the Pizza Hut and she used to wait tables and she had this big jar in her room that she would dump her change in from her tips. I'll never forget that we had to live with my grandparents, you know, and she put herself through nursing school. And then when I was in high school, she was working like two or three jobs. I never saw my mom because she was trying to provide for us. And then most of the rest of my family were entrepreneurial, that self made had their own companies. And so I learned from that that hard work is essential to success.

Dr. George White [00:20:59]:
And so again, going back to what I mention mentioned earlier, I've always worked very hard and because if you work hard, things will come to you. It might not be the easiest path, but there's no substitute for hard work. And hard work will provide you with opportunities at the end of the day. So I just wanted to go back to that tips again. I think you have to have a passion for what you're when you go to graduate school. And I do see this a lot. I see a lot of students coming in. I teach in our MBA program and I see a lot of students coming in our MBA program that are just in the MBA to get the mba.

Dr. George White [00:21:33]:
Okay, now of course that's up to them. That, that's what they want to do. But I've noticed the students that have a passion for learning and are interested in like the concepts, ideas, theories we're talking about in our classes that go beyond just getting the degree, they tend to enjoy the process and the journey that they're on a lot more than those that don't. So, I mean, I think it's important for you to find a program that you're interested in. You're going to be excited about taking the class classes in and so forth. Also, again, there's not a replacement for hard work. And this goes back to my discussing all this earlier. I've never been the smartest in any of my classes, but I'm a grinder, you know, I've had to grind things out.

Dr. George White [00:22:14]:
But at the end of the day, you will get to where you want to be if you put in the effort and you work hard and do your very best in your classes and in the program. So I think that's very important. Also, I think most students these days, or most students are not full time, but a lot of them are working jobs and so forth. You got to be able to manage and schedule things properly. You know, I think time management these days has become more important than ever before. And so being able to develop process you have for yourself, you know, like a schedule for yourself when you do get into the program will definitely help because it will keep you sort of segmented to where you can balance out how you get through the program week to week. So that would sort of be my advice. But I mean, the big thing is you got to really be excited about what you're planning to go into.

Dr. George White [00:23:02]:
And that will. That will, I think, make it to where you will get through the program a lot easier and you'll learn a lot more at the end of the day.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:09]:
Well, George, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. I know there's a lot more to it, but you shared some amazing tips and thoughts on kind of the journey that you took, but also things that people can do. And I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. George White [00:23:22]:
Thank you, Chris. I appreciate the opportunity and thank you very much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:26]:
The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at Flintgrad office at umflint. Eduardo.

Embarking on the Journey

Graduate school acts as a beacon for those seeking to elevate their academic prowess and career trajectory. In our latest 'Dads with Daughters' episode, Victor's in Grad School, Dr. Christopher Lewis sheds light on what it takes to navigate this crucial phase with the poise of a seasoned scholar. From the higher salaries and advancement opportunities that often follow an advanced degree to the intrinsic reward of mastering your chosen field, the pursuit of graduate education is filled with both promise and challenge. 

Charting the Course

Success in grad school goes beyond intellectual capacity; it is about nurturing the characteristics that define graduate-level scholars. Preparedness for academic rigors, a comprehensive understanding of the graduate vs. undergraduate landscape, and adopting a collaborative mindset are pivotal. Graduate education is a different ballgame—larger in scope and depth—demanding a more proactive and engaging effort from its participants.

Managing Time, Maximizing Potential

Time management is at the heart of a graduate student's success. Critical tools such as Google Task and Google Calendar can serve as lifelines in a sea of deadlines and commitments. But thriving in grad school isn't just about keeping a calendar; it's about resilience and adaptability. With the right environment and the right tools, challenges become mere stepping-stones on your path to academic and professional excellence.

Fostering Academic Relationships

The relationship with faculty can break or make a graduate experience. Securing a faculty mentor and approaching initial meetings with well-thought-out questions and clear goals can forge connections that not only enhance learning but also open doors to career opportunities. This mentorship extends beyond the classroom, offering insights and support in navigating the often complex terrain of graduate research and career planning.

Career and Personal Development

Leveraging campus resources like career services is crucial. Small actions, such as checking campus email regularly, joining student organizations, and attending networking events, compound over time, laying the foundation for a robust professional network and a well-rounded personal development arsenal.

Financial Strategy

Dr. Lewis doesn't skirt around the financial implications of grad school. He stresses the importance of being proactive in seeking out financial support through FAFSA, scholarships, and graduate assistantships. Sound financial planning includes budgeting wisely, establishing good credit, exploring loan options, and considering part-time employment to manage the fiscal responsibility of graduate education.

Tapping into University Resources

Our episode highlights resources at institutions like the University of Michigan Flint, where aspirants can find a trove of information from the graduate programs page to in-depth podcasts, inquiry forms, and personalized assistance from the Graduate Office. These resources are instrumental in helping prospective students chart their graduate school journey. 

Conclusion

The road to graduate school success is paved with preparation, adaptability, and a robust support network. As Dr. Lewis emphasizes, the journey is not only about achieving academic accolades but also about personal growth and finding joy in the pursuit of knowledge. Engaging with the content of the 'Victor's in Grad School' episode offers a blueprint for incoming graduate students to approach their studies with strategy, resourcefulness, and resilience.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:
Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]:
Good morning. Thank you so much for being here today. My My name is doctor Christopher Lewis. I am the director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you here today, and and I really appreciate you being, interested in this topic and interested in being a part of this graduate school journey. Today, we're gonna be talking about graduate school success and what you can do to be able to find success in that journey that you're on. It is definitely a journey and something that every person has to go through that is going to be a little bit unique to each and every one of you. But today, I'm hoping to be able to share some things, some things that you can think about, some things that you can start to prepare for So that when you do make that transition into graduate school, it's not so foreign, but also that you can start things on the right foot and start moving in the right direction right from the moment that you start.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:10]:
Feel free today to use the chat to be able to Ask any questions that you might have, and and we'll have some time at the end as well. I did ask that everybody Please go to the participant tab, click on the 3 dots next to your name, and update Your name to have your full name there so that we can send out the code to you afterwards for the free application. I would really appreciate if you can take the time to do that. And if you can't do that, just go ahead and add in the chat your name and we can and I can add it then. Okay. So why don't we get started? And I see people In the chat already using it, that's great. I'm so glad that you're using that. Feel free to definitely introduce yourself, ask your questions, And put things in there, and then we'll answer other questions at the end.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:12]:
K. So let's Start jump in and start talking about graduate school success. Here's some of the things that we're gonna be talking about today. Excited to be able to chat with you and to be able to talk to you About all of these different things. But first and foremost, we're gonna be talking about graduate education, why you should be thinking about it, why and if you're here, most likely you are thinking about it, But why it's important to think about it, especially in today's society and in today for for your career trajectory. We're gonna talk about some characteristics, some things that we have seen not only here at the University of Michigan Flint, but in general about what it takes to be a successful grad student. Talk about those relationships that you want to build with faculty members. Talk about career development, employability, those Hard skills, soft skills, things that you're going to be learning in the class and outside of the class that will help you to be able to, to be able to Be prepared for the workforce.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:08]:
Be prepared to going and taking that graduate education into employment. Talk about getting involved in ways in which you can get involved as you move further down your graduate school path, and then finally talking about some financial considerations and support that are available as you're going through graduate school. So first and foremost, let's talk about graduate education. In grad school, why should you do it? Why should you even consider grad school? Well, first and foremost, when you look at research and you look at the That individuals that have gone and gotten a graduate degree, advantage of earning a graduate degree is that it will lead to a higher salary As well as advancement opportunities for you in your career. In the more education that you get as you look at studies that are out, Out there on this, the more education that someone gets, the more opportunities that they have to advance in their career, the more opportunities that they have to To gain up to 20 to 30 times the amount over the lifespan of that career within that career. So it is important to be able to consider and look at the opportunities that lie in front of you that will allow for you to be able to get that further education that will move you further in your own career journey. It also gives you A more competitive advantage when you're applying for jobs, when you're applying for advancement opportunities within your work because you've set yourself, you set yourself apart from other individuals. Also, depending on the opportunities that you've taken within your graduate work, You have the opportunity to be able to do research or to be able to delve deeper into specific topics, specific areas, things that you are passionate about, Things that you're interested in that will help you to define that career trajectory for yourself as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:07]:
As you're in graduate school, you have an opportunity to build a network of individuals around you from the students that you're going to be studying with, to the faculty you're going to be studying with, And even looking beyond that, there are definitely, opportunities within graduate school where you can go and do Clinical experiences or internships, externships. There's lots of different words for them, but there are a lot of opportunities for you to be able to get those Practical skills where you can build that network for yourself that can open doors, whether it's at the company that you may be in or working with or tangentially to other organizations or other people that those people know. So it does become important that you that you do take the time to be able to meet people within your program, to get to know the people within your program because you never know who those people will be able to introduce you to, to help you, to be able to get that foot in the door, to be able so that you can then potentially open up career opportunities for yourself. There are lots of opportunities for growth Within a graduate degree, not only on the your academic learning, but within the skills that you need to be Successful as a leader, the skills that you need to be successful as a communicator. There's lots of other soft skills per se That you're going to be learning along the way, and I encourage you to explore all of those because employers are looking for those as well. Getting a graduate degree can help you to change careers. So some of you may be thinking and saying, you know what? I've been working in this area for a little bit, And getting a graduate degree will help me to move in the the direction that I really wanna move to be able to Have the career that I want to have eventually. And if that's the case, that's great.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:10]:
And just know that As you're going through, again, take advantage of building that network, making strong relationships that we're gonna be talking about with your faculty members. All of those things are going to help you to be able to transition into a new career area in that regard. It also opens up the ability for you to be seen in a different light. It adds credibility to you as an individual Because you're bringing additional education, bringing additional expertise into that work setting, into The ethos of the world, and you have the opportunity then to be able to expand upon that and go from there. Advanced education also opens up opportunities for you in many different ways. We talked about career opportunities, but it could open up other opportunities. You never know where that might lie. You may do some research with a faculty member that might turn into a, an opportunity to write a paper that goes into a journal or into Some other scholarly publication that will open up other doors for you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:20]:
And then beyond that, as I talked about networking, Alumni networks are so important. There are people that have gone before you and you need to look at that as well. The University of Michigan has one of the largest alumni networks in the world. And as you look at different institutions, you need to look at that. You need to look at, You know, what kind of abilities are there for me to reach out to that alumni network to be able to help me to get to where I want to go? So when you think about your when you think about stepping into a graduate program, there are definitely some characteristics characteristics that we have seen of successful graduate students. And One of the things that I would put out here first is that individuals that are, stepping into this type of a role, stepping into this type of a, of a program need to prepare themselves. They've gotta prepare themselves for the academic rigor And the difference between undergrad and grad. Some of you may be coming in with additional graduate work.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:25]:
That's great. And if that's if you've already gone through that process, Kudos to you. You and you probably have an idea of what is in store for you. If you have never gotten a graduate degree Before, one of the biggest differences in between undergrad and grad is the way in which you're going to be educated. Especially here in the US, you're going to find that at US institutions, what tends to happen is In a undergraduate setting, you tend to be taught by the teacher. The teacher is in front teaching you and pushing that knowledge to you. Whereas in a graduate sense, 1, you're going to be delving into a topic that is much more niche And you're just focusing on that topic. But too many faculty members will teach in a way where it's a collaborative approach to learning.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:19]:
So the faculty member is definitely going to push you and teach you and to educate you on different topics, But they're also going to be drawing out conversation and getting you to be part of the learning that is happening within the classroom itself. So a different type of focus, a different type of way in which You will learn a different type of way in which, you're the rest of the students in the classroom are going to learn, And you have to understand that that difference is going to be there and is going to happen. You also are going to be challenged in many different graduate Programs to do research and if you've never done research before, research is is challenging. It definitely can be something that will We'll push you in many different directions, and you will have to push yourself to learn new things about how to As you see here, the all these are all the steps of research and critical thinking, but these are all different things that in any Pretty much any graduate program that you're gonna be pushed to have to do. So you're gonna have to be able to identify the a problem, be able to research and find out more about that problem, look at the data and the relevance to the data, ask questions further to be able to hone the topic even further, be able to then Identify the best solution for the problem that has been that you have put out there or that has been presented to you and present be able to present your solution And analyze the decision for the choice that you made. Now not every undergraduate student goes through an experience like that where you're Pushed to think about things that deeply at graduate level, you will be. And so the way that you are being Taught the way that you are learning is going to be different. Other successful students, and I don't have this down as as a bullet point specifically, But we'll we'll I'm gonna go to the next slide, and we'll we'll talk a little bit further.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:25]:
But other other things that we found is time management. In organization, graduate students are balancing a lot of different things. So some of the things that that students need to prepare themselves for is to be able To identify strategies for themselves that are going to help them to balance their work life, Their school life, their personal life, and find ways to best balance that for themselves. Now many students will find that they really need to have some type of a a calendar or something tangible that can help them to set up a schedule for themselves, especially if they're trying to work and do school and have a family, you know, and and and Scheduling time or the things that you know that you need to be scheduling for will help you to be able to make sure that you stay on track And that it allows for you to be able to separate out. I'm working here. I'm doing school here. I'm, you know, spending time Doing this with friends and spending time with family. It is definitely important to have that support that support system behind you, Whether you have a family or if you have friends, you know, it is going to be really important to be able To have those people coming into graduate school, and when you get here, you have to be open to building new systems of support In finding the resources that are available at the school that you go to, whether it's other students in your program, whether it's other Services that are offered on campus, you wanna make sure that you tap into the support that you need early on to make sure that you're going to be successful as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:15]:
As you're looking at graduate programs, you're definitely going to want to make sure that you're, Well, as you're niching down and you're figuring out exactly what you wanna study, that you wanna study something that you're truly passionate about because you're gonna be Studying for, let's say, 2 years on a specific topic, and all you're going to be studying is that specific topic. If you're not passionate about it, it's gonna show. It's gonna show in your grades. It's gonna show in the research that you do and anything else that you do. So you wanna make sure that in the decision that you're making and the program that you're looking into, that it is definitely a passion area and something that you want to be able to go even deeper on to be able to, be able to make sure that you're going to be able to be successful In that, in that transition to graduate school for yourself. You wanna use resources, I mentioned that already, but there's lots of different Resources that are available on campus that can aid or assist you in many different ways, and you have to open yourself up to knowing that You may need help that you didn't need an undergrad. I had a graduate student that contacted me recently that was taking a biostatistics class And was a bit lost and asked if there were tutors available for statistics. And this student was a little embarrassed by it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:38]:
And I said to the student, there's nothing to be embarrassed about. You're asking for support. You're asking for help. You're identifying that this is an area that is a bit, that is going to be a bit bit of a challenge and that's okay. What ends up happening that's more of an issue is if you keep pushing through thinking, I'll figure it out. I'll figure it out. I'll figure it out. And as you get further on in the term, you get further lost because you haven't asked for help.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:10]:
There's nothing wrong with asking for help, And faculty love it when students ask for help. Just because they may be seen as an expert in their field Does not mean that they don't have compassion or empathy to what you're going through and that they won't be able to open doors for you or show you where resources lie. There are definitely other resources on campus that can help you along the way with time management or other aspects. On many on most campuses, you're going to find that they have counseling centers. We ours is called CAPS, Which is a counseling and psychological services center. And that is definitely there for any student to be able to access whether they're Stressing out over test anxiety or whether they just need someone to talk to to deal with some other things that are happening in in school, out of school, take advantage of those. If you feel like you might have a learning disability or Something that you need some additional support on, reach out to the disability services office, right, when you get here. If you're a veteran, look look for Veterans services offices to talk to them and to make sure that you're taking advantage of the resources that are out there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:28]:
You definitely wanna stay healthy, and healthy is not only eating right, but it's also exercising. It's taking time for yourself To find, to take, to, to be able to relieve that stress. And each one of you is going to be a little bit different in regard to How you find that that, that health for yourself. Some of you, it may be you need to hit the gym every morning at 8 AM. That's great. For some others, it may be that you need to go on a walk every day or that you need to make sure that you're eating a balanced, balanced meal, you know, 3 times a day. There's lots of different ways that you can stay healthy, but by staying healthy physically and mentally, You're going to be able to keep up the momentum of graduate school. Graduate school can definitely be Challenging and stressful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:26]:
You've got to find time to relax and have some fun along the way and know that yes, you're here because You've been admitted to a program and that program is going to be rigorous, but that You also need to find time for yourself and be able to separate school and outside of school so that you can Take a break, take a breather, and be able to get your mind where it needs to be so that you can stay on track at school. And I always put down keep your goals in in mind, keep those in the forefront of your mind. That's going to help you to be able to Make sure that you keep pushing toward the light at the end of the tunnel and allow for you to be able to make sure that you're going to be able to be successful. Lots of other resources, that I haven't mentioned yet. If your campus has if the campus that you're looking at has a writing center or if you don't know, ask. Do is there a writing center? Can graduate students take advantage of it? We have a writing center right in the building that I am in right here at the University of Michigan Flint. Any student can go to it and you can work with, writing I'm gonna say tutors, but But really they're they're people that are getting paid to be able to help you and look at your writing to give you some some assistance in being able to Unblock your mind per se and help you to start moving in the right direction when it comes to the expectations for writing and writing within the graduate program. The library and library staff is definitely something that will hope will help you to be able to Get access to the resources that you need to be able to delve deeper, especially if you're doing research.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:18]:
But also Many many libraries will also have your textbooks or other supplemental texts that will help you to better understand topics. I talked about staying on schedule, Google task, Google calendar. Great resources. If you've never used them, check them out. They're free resources that can help you to be able to manage your time, your productivity in many different ways. You have to also be adaptable and resilient. There are going to be times during your graduate program Where you will get frustrated, where you might hit a proverbial wall and you are Doing everything you can to get over that wall and you feel like it's a losing battle. I'm not saying that to be be negative in any sense.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:08]:
It's just a reality for any of us that have gone to graduate school in the past. You will hit it at some point. And if you don't, That's amazing. But if you do, just know that the sign of a successful person is someone that can hit that wall, bounce back, And figure out a different way, figure out another way, figure out a a way to be able to either get help To get over the wall, to get around the wall, to do whatever you can to be able to, to be able to move To the place where you're going. And then as you're looking at graduate programs, you definitely wanna look for supportive and nurturing environments. You want to be in an environment that is going to lift you up and not tear you down. And so as you're looking at programs, you wanna look at that as well. I talked about the importance of building relationships with your faculty members that, as you transition into graduate school, the Relationships that you're going to have with your faculty are going to become more intimate in regard to the how you get to know them and how they will and mentor you as an individual as you go through that graduate degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:24]:
And faculty know that And they are hoping that you will take them up on those opportunities. Many programs will allow for you to have a faculty advisor, and they might call it a faculty mentor, but You're going to be assigned to someone in your program. Get to know that person. Really get to know that person. What are, you know, what are they studying? What are they researching? What what's been their professional experience and what can they do to be able to help you to prepare for That next stage, they're definitely going to be there to help you understand academics and understand what you need to do to graduate. But beyond that, Most faculty members at all institutions come to the classroom with a wealth of different experiences, and it's that experience That you are going to want to draw from to be able to learn and grow from them. So even if you don't have them as a professor in your class, you could still learn from them and learn from The things that went well for them, learn from things that they that didn't go well and that they had to learn and grow from. And by doing that, you're going to be a you're gonna be even more prepared for your life after graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:48]:
As you look to sit down with your faculty mentor, your faculty advisor for the first time, some things to think about And things to do to prepare for the meeting. Come prepared with questions, make sure that you have questions, topics that you wanna discuss, know that they're going to want to delve a little bit deeper into especially in your 1st meeting Who you are, why you're in the program, why you're interested in the career field, and what your end goals are Because they're gonna wanna see, okay, what can I do to support this student as they're going through our program? As you prepare for this, make sure that you set a meeting. Don't just show up at their office or if you do show up at their office, just say, Would you mind if we set up a meeting so that we could so that I could get to know you a little bit better, and we could talk about my My plan for the program. And then and just don't expect that if you show up at their door that they will have time right then to meet with you. But give them an out and allow for them to be able to, to be able to give you other times that may work. So by preparing for the meeting, you'll be able to ask those informed questions, those things that you've thought out, the things that are important to you, And be able to then talk about the plan that you have to that are going to push you toward getting to the next Step of your own career journey. And as you're talking about that, there's nothing wrong with asking, asking for assistance, asking for help. If there's something specific that you're trying to accomplish, talk to them about it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:40]:
They have worked with students for probably many years And have worked to help students in many different ways. So by you being candid about what you need and what you're trying to accomplish, They can better support you down the road. As after that meeting, after You meet with your faculty mentor, definitely look make sure you that you take notes and then synthesize what you've learned To be able to connect together what your mentor has told you, what you need to do for your academic program, And what you want to also accomplish outside of the classroom as well. So all of those pieces will help you to move forward in Your graduate education. Most campuses have a robust career services or career development office With employees that are there to aid students, sometimes those individuals are spread out into Different colleges. So you might if you're in a college of education, there may be someone that's specifically tailored toward working toward education graduates. Other times, it is overarching career services or career development, And they will work with all students no matter what career area that they're in. These offices also many times will hear about internships or other opportunities that are available to students.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:12]:
They will email students, but they will also have things posted in their office. And by having a strong relationship with that individual, they're gonna be thinking about you while they get these emails and they might start sending you emails. Speaking about email, one of the things that I will say is that When you go to a graduate program, they're going to give you a campus email. Make sure that you check that email numerous times a week And read the emails that are sent to you. You do not wanna miss out on opportunities. And too often, students are, You know, they're not big fans of email, and they don't read the email. And then when they finally do, it's too late. And then they miss out on opportunities that might have, that might have existed.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:04]:
There's also opportunities for you to get involved on campus. So this is starting to get into To not only the in class academic learning, but also that out of class learning that also happens. Now this may be seen as soft skills, but leadership, communication, budgeting, you know, lots of different things that will allow for you to be able to enhance skills that will prepare you for your work after graduate school. There are student organizations that are set up that might be program specific, so organizations for your academic area. But there could be other organizations such as we have a brand new organization on campus that just started. They had their 1st meeting Just recently, and it's a students of color graduate organization. That's what it's called right now, and they may change their name down down the line. But the nice thing is is that they built this organization to create community.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:09]:
And From the get go, there's been lots of opportunities for leadership because it's a brand new student organization. So that's something that you could step into at your own institution To look at what type of organizations exist, how could I get involved, is it just going to an activity or an event, Is it that I want to be an actual leader in the organization? Whatever ways that you feel like you're compelled to do, All of those things are going to help you to learn a lot about yourself, but also learn a lot for your career In the future, especially in regards to working with others, speaking to groups, being able to fundraise or being able to budget, You know, it depends on the organization and what the plan or the goal is, but there are definitely lots of opportunities to be able to do just that. So graduate school can be expensive and definitely something that you have to consider is the financials Of the of graduate school, but also scholarships that may be available. For domestic students, you wanna make sure that That you do fill out the FAFSA form. The FAFSA is the free application for federal student aid. It is for US residents. And if you you may have used this for your undergraduate degree too, many times students tell me, well, I'm not gonna fill that out because I'm not gonna get anything. But I what I always say is by filling the FAFSA out, you're making yourself eligible not only for loans, grants, Scholarships from the federal government.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:47]:
But on top of that, it may open you up for other scholarships that are need based or other type of scholarships That are from the institution in general. So taking the time to be able to be able to put that in and be able to have that considered will only assist. You definitely wanna look at every school. Every school that you're going to should have information about Scholarships that are available or other financial, need that can be provided to you as a student. So you wanna look at that? I have a link here, off of our main graduate programs page called paying for college. And on that, you're going you would see specific scholarships that are listed, but then also, links to our to our, our scholarship application because you do have to go into a separate scholarship application to apply for scholarships. So you need to look at That at the institutions that you're considering as well. There are external scholarships that are also available.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:54]:
And external scholarships are scholarships that you might find on the scholarship search engines similar to what you see here, Fastweb, CapEx, Unigo, GoGrad, all of those are different entities that bring together Individual scholarships from all over the world and from the answers that you give on Their intake form, many times they will start to email you with different possible scholarships, that you could apply for. Now that takes some time and definitely can, be something that that students choose to or not choose to do. But I will say the more that you do that, the more opportunities that may exist. And I encourage students to always apply for scholarships that they are eligible for. Assistantships is another way that graduate School can get paid for, at least in some ways. Graduate assistantships are salaried positions and basically they are I mean, here at our institution, we use them for graduate research. So you would apply for a graduate research Assistantship. And and in that research assistantship, you would be paired With a faculty member that is doing research on a specific topic, and you would then start working with that faculty member To be able to make sure that you are able to put, that you're able to, that you're able to then work 1 on 1 with that faculty member to be able to, work on getting the research out there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:48]:
So So you're getting paid as a in an hourly wage. And at the end of a period of time, you will get a paycheck That'll get submitted to you to be able to use for it could be being used for your tuition. It could be used for Your groceries or other factors as well. I I mentioned that at our institution, we do a lot of research, but In that, but there are other campuses that may have staff type positions as well. And There are some programs that require you to be in in an assistantship to have a spot in the program. There are other programs that don't have that, And that it's just a add on. And if you decide to apply for those, that's even better. So, so that's some some things to keep in mind.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:42]:
The differences between the institutions are going to be very unique. So scholarships are going to be vastly different. By the way they do research, research may be different. The way that they do assistantships may be different. So all of those things are things that you're going to wanna think about And look into as you're considering your graduate program itself. Couple other things. You definitely want to make sure that you are budgeting in graduate school and you are able to, And you're able to make sure that you, can set a budget for yourself. As I said, graduate school will cost money.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:27]:
It is it can be expensive, and you wanna make sure that you understand what the reality is and what your budget needs to look like to be able to be successful in in being able to be Financially successful in that journey. Make sure that you're building good credit while you're in school. Don't put everything on a credit card And not pay it off because that's going to lead toward a lot of other problems. I I tend to say that If you have debt coming into graduate school that you can pay down, that's even better versus coming in with a lot of debt in your that you're trying to pay off while you're going through graduate school. If you had loans in undergrad, those can be put Those can be deferred while you're in graduate school in the US, especially for domestic students. There are loans that are available for graduate school. Those loans are based off there are going to be limits though. So depending on how much you took out in your undergraduate degree will also make a difference on whether or not, you can get federal loans for graduate school and how much you can take out and and add on to the overarching balance that you may or may not have.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:50]:
And then you can also look on campus. Look on campus or off campus for part time work to help you pay for some of those expenses To help you along the way. So, couple of other things just to to wrap up today, and then I'm gonna open it up for questions. This QR code will link you to Our graduate program resource page, which is our graduate blog, our graduate programs blog, on there, you're You're going to find a couple of things. You're gonna find a number of different articles that will talk about graduate student success, paying for graduate school, How do you pick a graduate program? There's lots of lots of resources that are on there. The other thing though that I would encourage you to check out Is we have a podcast that we've been doing now since 2022, August of 2022, And have over a 100 podcast episodes on the Victors in Grad School podcast. Now this is a podcast that is Available no matter where you are and what, what all you have to do is you can go here to this website and listen there or Go to anywhere that a podcast is, is housed and type in victors in grad school, and you'll find it. And on that podcast, you're going to find that we talk all about what it means to find success in grad school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:38:22]:
I talk to people every week that have gone to graduate school or are currently in graduate school, and they talk about The journey that they're on and what they've had to do to find success in that journey or what they had to do to find success in the earlier journey that Will hopefully help you and give you some things to think about to help you make this transition smoothly into graduate school. This will take you to this next one will take you to our graduate programs page. This lists all of our Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flinto. We've got over 40 different graduate programs that are available I admit all levels of education from the PhD all the way to graduate certificates. So depending on what you have an interest in and what you're interested in studying, though, there those are all different things that, that you'll find on this site. So if you take a quick screenshot there. And then if you know exactly what you want and if you know that if you know we have a program or you want more information on any of our programs, you can click on this A QR code and this QR code will take you over to our inquiry form. All you have to do is put in your name, your email, the program that you're interested in, when you want to study And let us know and then you will be able to you'll start getting some emails from us that will Send you information about the program that you have an interest in and then connect you with that program as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:39:56]:
Okay. Finally, this is our our, grad office email account. So flint grad office at umich.edu, encourage you to I do encourage you to To reach out to our office at any point, if you've got questions along the way, no matter what they are, just reach out, Ask us questions, and we will be happy to help in any way that we can. Feel free just to email us at flintgrandoffice@umich.edu with any questions that you may have. Be happy to help others in the future, but I really appreciate you being here today and look forward to talking to you in the future. Thanks for being here. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your Education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:40:51]:
For more information on any of our Graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with Me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon As we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, Email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

Entering graduate school can be a daunting prospect, especially for first-generation college students like Natalie El-Zayat. In a recent episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast, Natalie shared her experiences as a second-year Doctorate of Physical Therapy student at the University of Michigan Flint, shedding light on her journey from undergrad to grad school and offering valuable insights for anyone considering a similar path.

From Undergrad to Grad School:

The Decision to Pursue Physical Therapy Natalie's desire to be part of the medical field led her on a personal journey of discovery. Her decision to pursue physical therapy was influenced by witnessing her uncle's rehabilitation journey after suffering a stroke. Beyond the physical aspects of therapy, Natalie was drawn to the mental and emotional support involved, which ignited her passion for this field. The importance of building long-term patient relationships and the holistic approach to care solidified her choice to pursue physical therapy as a career.

Choosing the Right Program: Factors to Consider

When deciding where to pursue her doctorate, Natalie emphasized the significance of considering the type of support and community offered by the university. As a first-generation college student, the support and guidance she received at the undergraduate level were instrumental in her decision to attend the University of Michigan Flint. The emphasis on being more than just a student, but a colleague, and the dedication to service and clinical experience played a significant role in her ultimate choice.

Challenges Faced as a First-Generation Graduate Student

Natalie acknowledged the learning curve she faced transitioning from undergraduate to graduate school. As a first-generation student, she highlighted the importance of asking for help and seeking support. Balancing the rigorous program of graduate school while maintaining a life balance was a key learning point for her. She emphasized the need for self-compassion and patience, recognizing that perfection is not attainable and that the journey will have its ups and downs.

Strategies for Success: Adapting Study Techniques

Natalie's journey emphasized the evolution of her study techniques. From initially focusing on memorization for exams to shifting towards understanding and making connections, she recognized the need to adapt and refine her approach to learning. Mind mapping and seeking advice from faculty and other resources played an essential role in her academic journey. By prioritizing learning over grades, she found a more sustainable and effective way to navigate the challenging curriculum.

Clinical Opportunities and Insights: Heart Clinic Experience

Natalie's experience at the Heart Clinic, where she gained firsthand clinical exposure, provided valuable insights for prospective physical therapy students. She highlighted the importance of understanding the patient population and types of pathologies covered in the clinical setting. Additionally, she emphasized the significance of seeking out the right resources and the value of mentors in making the most of clinical experiences.

Encouraging Others: Tips for Prospective Graduate Students

In offering advice to prospective graduate students, Natalie emphasized maintaining a life balance, practicing self-compassion, and seeking support from peers and mentors. Her journey serves as a testament to the importance of adapting study techniques, prioritizing holistic understanding, and recognizing the value of personal well-being throughout the graduate school journey.

Conclusion: A Journey of Growth and Resilience

Natalie's journey offers invaluable insights for anyone considering a graduate education, particularly in physical therapy or related fields. Her experiences exemplify the challenges and triumphs that come with pursuing higher education, especially as a first-generation student. Her emphasis on adaptability, self-compassion, and seeking support underscores the importance of a holistic approach to success in graduate school.

Finding success in graduate school is not just about academic performance but also about personal growth, resilience, and a dedication to holistic learning. Natalie El-Zayat's journey serves as an inspirational guide for anyone embarking on their own path through graduate education.

In conclusion, Natalie's experiences highlight the multifaceted nature of the graduate school journey, offering valuable insights into the challenges and opportunities it presents. Her story serves as a testament to the importance of adaptability, self-compassion, and seeking support as essential components of success in graduate school.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:
Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]:
Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to sit down with you, to talk to you, to walk alongside of you on this journey that you're on. This you may be Already in grad school, you may be just starting to think about grad school. You could be toward the end and seeing that light at the end of the tunnel. No matter where you are, you can do something each day to be able to prepare yourself, to be able to work on finding success for you in this journey that you're on. And that's what this show is all about.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:50]:
Every week, we walk together and talk about things that are important to you, things that are going to help you To make choices that to find ways to be able to to find that success in your in that journey that you're on. And every week, I love being able to bring you Different people. People that have gone before you are in graduate school currently, have gone to graduate school, and are able to bring Something back to you to share that journey with you and hopefully give you some kernels of knowledge, something that you can Take from to be able to help you as you make choices yourself. Today, we've got another great guest with us today. Natalie El Zayat is with us today, and Natalie is a 2nd year physical therapy student, doctorate of physical therapy student at the University of Michigan Flint. And I'm really excited to have her here today and to welcome her to the show. Natalie, thanks so much for being here.

Natalie El-Zayat [00:01:47]:
I really appreciate you for inviting me on your show. Honestly, it's been a pleasure so far, so I'm excited to see, what conversations we have.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:55]:
Well, 1st and foremost, one of the things that I I love to do is be able to really turn the clock back in time. So I would love to go backwards a bit Because I know that you were at the University of Michigan Dearborn for your undergraduate degree. You were working through that. And at some point in that journey, in that time at the University of Michigan Dearborn. You made a choice to go to graduate school. What were the reasons that you chose to go to graduate school?

Natalie El-Zayat [00:02:21]:
So I Always knew that in some aspect, I wanted to be in the medical field. I didn't know what part of the medical field I wanted to be in. When I was kind of going through that process that everybody goes through in their twenties, where they're trying to decipher what route is my route, which way do I wanna go, Basically, I had an uncle of mine who, after having going through a bout of malaria, he ended up suffering a stroke. And I got to see his Rehab journey from day 1 and to see that it wasn't only the physiological elements. It wasn't only the physical part of therapy that he was struggling with, but also the mental. Anybody that, you know, has had a stroke of some sort has had several parts of their brain affected. So I feel like it was just Something that piqued my interest, I think seeing his therapist work with him day in, day out to try improve and improve his outcomes was something that I was, You know, really drawn to. A lot of times with doctors or nurses, they don't have the luxury of being long term with their patients and building relationships with them.

Natalie El-Zayat [00:03:25]:
So I think that's something that drew me to physical therapy and made me want to continue down that path. So, yeah, I just wanted to, you know, develop myself professionally and be able to make those connections of patients.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:37]:
Now as you made that decision to go to physical therapy school, to go to get a doctorate in physical therapy, You decided eventually that you wanted to attend the University of Michigan, Flint, and I'm sure that you had a number of options. You probably could have gone to many different places Across the state of Michigan or beyond. Talk to me about the decision making process and what made you ultimately that you wanted to attend the University of Michigan Flint.

Natalie El-Zayat [00:04:03]:
As somebody who was an alumnus from a University of Michigan's school, like, from a Pacific campus. I graduated from the University of Michigan Dearborn. I feel like I was always impressed by the amount of support that I was given As a student, you know, they have, like, their start program, which kind of, like, helps students who don't necessarily know what path they want to go to with advising or, like, helping them select classes and things like that. And I think just that amount of Or as somebody who is a 1st generation college student, that is gold right there. That help is just something that is is really, really important to me. So Knowing that and then going to an open house at the University of Michigan Flint, I got to meet, with some of the faculty. And what they emphasized Was the fact that, you know, you're not just a student, you're a colleague. You're somebody that, you know, you can you you can see your professors as colleagues.

Natalie El-Zayat [00:05:00]:
You can go to them, get advice. You know, they really want the best for you, and they wanna push your education as far as it will go. And I think that was something that really drew me in. It made me feel like if I do go to the school, you know, graduate school is difficult. It's, rigorous. There's a lot of time spent, a lot of studying to do, and I think just that support aspect was something that really drove me to wanting To go there as well as their dedication kind of to service. You know, we have our pro bono clinic, the heart clinic, even that just Being able to actually work with patients every week, I think, is just something that also drove me to selecting the University of Michigan as my choice for this doctoral program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:49]:
Now one of the questions that I guess that I would ask you along with that would be is you talked about being a 1st generation college student. And as you're going through undergrad as a 1st generation college student, There are definite things you don't know, definite things that you have to learn along the way. And by the time you finish, You probably are feeling a little more confident, but then you transition not only to a new school, but you transition to a whole new way of learning. And as a 1st generation college student, talk to me about that transition for you. And what did you have to learn for yourself, Maybe the hard way to be able to allow you to get to a bit of a better point, Maybe now in the 2nd year in the program where you're feeling more confident because of the fact that you understand what's being expected.

Natalie El-Zayat [00:06:42]:
So just circling back to my undergrad, I think the thing the lesson that I learned, that was the most useful, the most impactful was that Ask for help. People want to help. You just need to ask for it. And I think there's that, like, aspect of wanting to be independent and, like, self sufficient and and things like that. But if you don't ask for help, you're never gonna really know, like, how to approach something the best way way because people have done it before you. They've done it efficiently. They may maybe have mastered the way to do something. So I feel like that aspect is really and that's something that I brought with me to, you know, the physical therapy program.

Natalie El-Zayat [00:07:20]:
I think one thing that I wasn't necessarily prepared for When entering graduate school was just the amount the volume the volume of information that is gonna be presented to you. And I remember that 1st week just thinking to myself, like, oh my god. I don't think I'm put out for this. You know? Like, everybody has that, like, Challenge with imposter syndrome. But at the end of the day, I think I went back onto the idea of help and just We're reaching out to professors, tutoring. I still utilize tutoring till this day. I try and get as much information from other people as I on how to handle these classes. And if I ever need to speak to an adviser or anything like that and have faculty advisers.

Natalie El-Zayat [00:08:03]:
So I think just leaning in to that help Has been really helpful, but also leaning on my support system, leaning on my family just to try and help me get, you know, through this. So it's It's been a challenge navigating higher education. I'm the 1st one to do it in my family. So I it's been a learning process, but, I mean, hopefully I mean, so far, I've I've Managed to be successful, and I hope to continue to do so. So, yeah, I would say just leaning on your support system and trying to find help where it's given.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:32]:
Now you talked about specifically that transition for yourself as a 1st generation college student. And I guess I I also just kinda Question, and it may be that it's the exact same answer here. But as you think about now, you said you've been successful. You found success In this journey thus far, and this is a 3 year program that you're in. You're in the 2nd year. So you found success, and you made that transition well into the program. As you think back to that 1st year in the program into the 2nd year of the program, what did you have to do? What did you have to set up for yourself, and What did you have to specifically do for yourself to be able to set yourself up for success, and what have you had to do as you've moved along To maintain that success throughout your graduate school journey.

Natalie El-Zayat [00:09:19]:
Yeah. So I think I had to approach The way I studied differently, the way that I took in information, I especially with physical therapy, it's kind of one of those professions that where you begin The base classes that you have kind of get built on. So you're build they're like they're you're building blocks, and you start building and adding on More information as the semesters go on. And I think that's one thing that you really have to do. You have to make those connections, and you have to approach you know, like, Through undergrad, with, like, most of the courses that I was in, a lot of the emphasis was kind of on just, like, getting the grade and On just trying to, like, memorize it for the test or, like, do well for the test. But I think especially, I feel like this semester, I've kind of Started to really hone in on that idea of learning, not just for the sake of the grade, but learning to understand, Sam learning to make connections, and it's not an easy thing to do. I do a lot of mind maps. I'll, like, just getting a piece of paper and just saying, okay.

Natalie El-Zayat [00:10:21]:
This is what I'm starting with, and I'm connecting all of these things together. How do they relate to each other? And going about it that way because I think When you approach studying that way versus just going through the notes and rewriting them, you're making those connections that are gonna last. It's not gonna just be a short term game gain. It's gonna be a long term. And, also, I feel that Every single semester, I've taken I've started to refine my way of studying. So I take things that work. I keep them. If there are certain things that don't work, I just, you know, get rid of them, and then I try to even build upon it.

Natalie El-Zayat [00:10:57]:
I mean, I looked up YouTube videos and things like that. There's a lot of people that have gone to graduate before me and and your podcast also has been helpful in that sense of trying to find ways to make sure that learning is at the forefront. And this semester specifically, I'm taking the burden off of myself of like, hey. If I don't do well on this exam, it's okay. I Just I'm trying to focus on learning and building those connections.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:23]:
You know, that's so important because as you keep Going up in your education, the expectation for you to be able to have that long term knowledge and long term of the concepts becomes even greater. And I speak to a lot of students. And in high school, a lot of times, students, You can fake it. You can easily fake it till you make it, and you don't really have to push yourself. You don't have to study as that that hard typically To be able to get the grades that you want. Undergrad, little bit harder. And depending on the type of class and professor And how much they challenge you. You may still be able to fake it somewhat.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:05]:
It's a little bit more difficult. As you get into grad school, You get into your doctorate, you can't fake it. Your faculty are gonna know whether you really know it or you don't know it. They're gonna expect you to not only understand Stand the knowledge in the class, but then you have to be able to take that knowledge and put it into action. And that's Where the rubber meets the road, and you've got to be able to show that you completely understand the concept. And if you don't, You have to be willing to be vulnerable enough to say that and to put yourself out there so that you can learn it. Because in the end, especially in a program like this, It's gonna impact you as a professional and how you are going to impact the work that you do with patients. Now You mentioned heart, and you mentioned that that has been something that's been important for you in the decision making to come to the University of Michigan Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:00]:
And not every student at knows to ask those questions to find out if there are opportunities for that type of experience Prior to getting into clinical rotations, as you look at the experience that you've had with heart And you think back to your time prior to going and picking a graduate school. What are some questions that you would have wanted to have asked to find out more about that clinical experience, that In person hands on experience that you're now getting, but you might not have known to ask that as you started off.

Natalie El-Zayat [00:13:42]:
One of the things that I would have like to know more about and a question that I would have liked to ask prior to starting is about, like, the Type the population type, the types of patients that we're gonna be seeing, and I guess a lot about all all sorry. About the, Pathologies that we would be seeing as well. We do get wide array of patients. We get patients that have Parkinson's disease. We get patients that have Have had suffered a stroke previously that we work with, have exercise classes that we do with those patients, but then we also have just Clinic. We have people that come in that have low back pain and things like that. But I will say the types of patients that dominate kind of that population are the patients that have had Some sort of neurological deficit. And I feel like that's something that I would have liked to know previously because I would have maybe looked more into interventions and things like that.

Natalie El-Zayat [00:14:35]:
I mean, they teach us a lot through the program. I'm talking about if I were to start my 1st semester all over again when I have to volunteer. I feel like I would have liked to know that just because it would have helped me know which sources to kind of seek out or Who to seek out? Amy York, she's the person that runs the pro bono clinic, and she's a great, great resource. And she's always encouraging people to ask questions. As a 1st year, you're kind of a little bit hesitant to do so because you might not know what questions to ask Or you might not know who to ask. So I feel like if I had maybe known those 2 things, the type of patient population and who to ask To try and give these patients the best possible experience that they can get, I feel like those would be the 2 questions that I would wanna know previously.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:21]:
And, you know, I think one of the things that's unique about the physical therapy program here at the University of Michigan Flint with this heart clinic is that 1st year students are able to get involved, Which is not always the case, and that's the case when you look at clinical experiences and any type of field. A lot of times, you have to wait until you're at least In your 2nd year or so to be able to have some knowledge under your under your belt, to go in to work with the faculty in that way and to get Your hands right in there to impact patients. And this program at the University of Michigan Flint definitely is unique in that way that it does allow students that want to to step out into the clinic right from day 1. And and I think that that is something that allows for you to be able to differentiate your experience and get more experiences, with a diverse clientele that will allow for you to serve others in much better ways in the future. Now as you think back to your graduate education so far and you think about people that are thinking about graduate school, whether it's Going to become a a physical therapist or some other path. What are some tips that you might offer those other students? Those people that are thinking about graduate school right now that would help them find success sooner.

Natalie El-Zayat [00:16:44]:
Well, first and foremost, I would say one of the most important lessons that I've had to learn is You're not gonna be perfect all the time, especially in doctoral program. You're having to balance Your life. Some people still work while they're in graduate school, which is incredibly impressive. I'm not one of those. Also, I think my commute factors into that because I do drive of distance to get to school, but, you know, balancing family, things that are important to you. And I think it's that balance that kind of can help you keep going Because a lot of people sometimes might put too much in 1 basket, and then what happens one side of the basket, and then the basket tips over and, you know, you're kind of just like you start going through the cycle of feeling like you can never catch up or keep up. At the end of the day, it is a rigorous program, And you have to be forgiving with yourself. You have to realize that I'm not perfect.

Natalie El-Zayat [00:17:40]:
There are gonna be times or certain exams where I'm not gonna do the best. But if You can take those experiences and make them positive by talking to faculty, figuring out ways that you can what knowledge gaps there are and how you can fill them and Learn from that experience and have that kind of mindset to develop yourself and just develop yourself professionally, I think, is really important. So I would say not being so hard on yourself, trying to keep that life balance. Whatever it is that you like doing Previously, just try and keep it going as much as you can. I will say in the 1st year, I really struggled, to keep up, my exercise. There was a lot of times where I would just fall off. I would try, and then I would just fall off, and I wouldn't end up going back to the gym. And I and, Overall, I feel like it negatively impacted my mental health.

Natalie El-Zayat [00:18:33]:
But being able to do that this semester, even if it's just 2 days a week, taking that time for myself And not feeling guilty about, like, not studying or anything like that is has been really, really helpful for me. And I think just being patient with yourself because you're not gonna figure it out day 1. It's not gonna be perfect. You know, you've never had to hit that level of, Oh, wow. This is a lot of information. How am I gonna integrate it all, and how am I gonna, you know, understand it all and do well on these exams? Well, you You know, it's not gonna be perfect, but over time it will get better, and you'll know how to manage your time in a way that will help you. And I think just Trying to keep the things that you love, trying to to keep the people around you that you love, and to keeping that social support, and not just Having, like like, one track mind of, oh, I just need to study. I need to study because at the end of the day, you are human.

Natalie El-Zayat [00:19:28]:
There's only you know, the brain only has so much capacity. And I think just focusing on having more efficient study times where you're trying to, like, understand the Concepts versus memorize every little detail will benefit you more in the long term.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:43]:
Well, Natalie, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, And I wish you all the best.

Natalie El-Zayat [00:19:50]:
I appreciate you so much. Thank you for having me on. I always want to help people as much as possible. I'm not sure If you can share my email, but you can put my email out there if anyone has any questions or anything. I'm always willing to help. As somebody that, you know, Didn't necessarily have that help going into undergrad and graduate school as well. I always am willing to, you know, sit down and have a conversation. So thank you so much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:13]:
The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our Graduate programs, visit umflint.eduforward/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with Me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

Navigating the World of Graduate School

Graduate school is a significant step in an individual's academic and professional journey. The decision to pursue advanced education often arises from the desire to broaden one's knowledge, enhance career prospects, or delve deeper into a particular field of study. In a recent episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis engages in an insightful conversation with Kyle Jankowski, who shares his experiences and insights as someone with degrees in social work and psychology. These insights shed light on the challenges and triumphs of navigating through the world of graduate education, shedding light on what it takes to succeed in a rigorous academic journey and beyond.

Finding Purpose and Evolving Aspirations

Jankowski's decision to pursue graduate studies stemmed from a desire to seek more opportunities for advancement and leadership in his field of social work. He emphasizes the importance of understanding the financial and career prospects associated with specific educational levels. Through his introspective introspective and forward-thinking perspective, he highlights that graduate education opens doors to expanded opportunities, particularly in areas such as administration and specialized roles that often require advanced degrees.

Overcoming Adversity and Finding New Paths

The episode underscores Jankowski's pivotal moment of simultaneously receiving an acceptance letter for a graduate program while being laid off from his job. This confluence of events led him to reflect on the importance of adaptability and seizing opportunities in the face of adversity. His journey serves as a practical demonstration of navigating life changes and aligning them with professional growth. It is a testament to how setbacks can lead to unforeseen paths of personal and professional development.

Selecting the Right Institution

Jankowski emphasizes the significance of selecting the right educational institution and program, citing the impact of mentorship and financial considerations in his decision-making process. The importance of scholarship opportunities and a program's fit with personal and professional aspirations is highlighted. His experiences underscore the need for a holistic assessment of factors such as faculty mentorship, financial aid, and the cultural fit of an institution when considering graduate programs.

Balancing Personal and Academic Commitments

Maintaining a balance between academic commitments, personal life, and financial responsibilities is crucial for success in graduate school. Jankowski's dedication to his studies while acknowledging the need to sustain connections and manage finances is emblematic of the multifaceted responsibilities that graduate students often face. His emphasis on practical time management and budgeting strategies underscores the need for holistic planning to navigate the demands of graduate education successfully.

Integrating Education into Professional Practice

The integration of theoretical knowledge from graduate programs into real-world professional practice is essential for growth and impact. Jankowski's insights into utilizing group work and mentorship from his programs to shape his work with young adults and children showcase the tangible impact of graduate education expertise on creating positive change within communities. By drawing connections between his academic and professional experiences, he showcases the relevance of graduate education in shaping effective and impactful practitioners.

Guiding Tips for Prospective Graduate Students

Jankowski's reflections culminate in a set of guiding tips for prospective graduate students. He advocates for aligning educational pursuits with intrinsic motivations and work ethic, emphasizing the importance of clarity in one's professional aspirations. His insights on the potential pitfalls of over-specialization and the value of a holistic approach to personal and professional growth provide invaluable guidance for those considering advanced degrees.

Conclusion

In the world of graduate school, diverse challenges and opportunities await individuals seeking to further their education and professional prospects. Jankowski's journey, characterized by resilience, adaptability, and a commitment to learning and growth, provides an inspiring narrative for those navigating through graduate education. It underscores the multidimensional aspects of success, from selecting the right program to integrating knowledge into professional practice. Ultimately, Jankowski's insights serve as a beacon for aspiring graduate students, offering pragmatic counsel and a broader perspective on the transformative journey of graduate education.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:
Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]:
Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, Doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to be in this journey with you As you are considering grad school, you're in grad school, you're looking at the light at the end of the tunnel, and you're and you're looking at the end of grad school, no matter where you are in this Journey, you are on a journey. You are on a journey toward getting that credential, getting that degree, moving toward The end goal that you've set for yourself, the whatever that career goal is, that aspiration that you're aiming toward, I love being able to talk to you about this and helping you along the way because every person is on a little bit of a different path, but what's important is to know that Though your path may be different than mine, there are many things that you and I both can do to be able to find success in that journey that are going to be exactly the same. And that's why this exists. It is here to help you to find ways that you could find success in the journey that you are on. I I also love every week being able to bring you different guests that are able to share their journeys with you so that you can learn and grow from what they went through And help you in the journey that you're on.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:28]:
Today, we got another great guest. Kyle Jankowski is with us today, and Kyle is the founder and co owner of the Center For Change and Healing as well as the co owner of the Birch Forest Children's Therapy Center. Really excited to have him here with us today And to have him share his journey with you. Kyle, thanks so much for being here today.

Kyle Jankowski [00:01:53]:
Thank you very much for hosting me, Christopher. I'm glad to be here. It's good to be able to give back to the school and give back to young people that are And not so young people that are taking 2nd life journeys Well,

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:03]:
I really appreciate you coming up in the field and advancing. Kyle just tipped his hat a little bit. Many of us.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:07]:
He did do his undergraduate work here at the University of Michigan Flint getting a bachelor's in social work, but then he went on from there And went to the University of Chicago, Crown Family School of Social Work to get an MSW, and then went on from there to do some more work with Pacifica Graduate Institute in getting another master's degree in psychology. So he's he's done this a couple of times. So one of the things that I I first love to do is I'd love to go back. I wanna go all the way back to that time when you were at the University of Michigan Flint getting that bachelor's degree. Talk to me about what were the reasons that made you choose that you wanted to go initially to graduate school?

Kyle Jankowski [00:02:53]:
In social work, it really is a profession at this point in history that's built around The graduate program and the advanced MSW degree and its subspecialties. There's a lot that you can do at the bachelor level, But there are financial realities that kick in with having a sustainable income at the bachelor's level. There's also realities With being locked out of certain job positions, administrative positions, there's a lot of ground level stuff that's done very well by people with the bachelor's degree with the BSW, But there's also real limits on advancement for people's natural leadership skills. They're Various geniuses, as the Greeks say, with lots of talents like Howard Gardner's multiple intelligences, Their unique cultural perspectives and other perspectives that they that they have, that they bring into the field that enriches it and the work that they do. So there's a bit of a A glass ceiling for a lot of opportunities unless you have that master's degree. I was in a position where I had been working in foster care in Genesee in Shiawassee County and Lapeer County, which is around Flint where I grew up. And I was working for a number of DCFS contractors experts and doing in home care, counseling, support groups, and a lot of transition to college type programming. And it's a contract position from the state, And my coworker and I, who were the only 2 caseworkers, for a lot of kids, were laid off Because the organization lost the contract.

Kyle Jankowski [00:04:24]:
Now it was about that same time that I started before then a few months, I started thinking about graduate School and applying, and I was applying all over. I I applied at, I believe, Michigan State. I applied at Ann Arbor School, which is where the master's program is for University of Michigan's system, and I applied to Washington University in St. Louis and their famous social work school, Columbia in New York, USC, etcetera. And I was looking also at other backup secondary smaller schools. And about the time that I got my acceptance letter To both Washington University and University of Chicago, I got my pink slip from my organization. So it worked out very well In the sense of fate, providence, divine intervention, or dumb luck, whichever way you'd like to take it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:10]:
So I know, as I mentioned

Kyle Jankowski [00:05:12]:
just clear that what you need to do,

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:14]:
And you decided to get another master's in psychology, and not just overarching psychology, but a specific type of psychology. So what made you decide that you wanted to go even further in a different direction to be able to expand your knowledge in that different way.

Kyle Jankowski [00:05:38]:
Yeah. Well, this is the importance of mentors and where that comes into the story. So in my 1st semester, my 1st course at University of Chicago. This is the 1st week of school at Real Coursework. They do a lot of onboarding and orientation and fun stuff beforehand And then like a lot of programs do. We're in class, and I run into this very lovely, very bright woman In the lunchroom, and she is getting her food, and her name was Vanessa. And she I didn't know at the time, but, she was gonna be my wife. She introduced me to a, her training clinical mentor, Kevin, who was a big figure out Here in Chicago, had founded a lot of programs back in the seventies, eighties, and nineties for adolescent treatment, which was very burgeoning at that time.

Kyle Jankowski [00:06:29]:
Mostly what's been applied to adolescent child treatment has been adult models, and he was creating with other people a unique adolescent Theory based model, that was very effective and still is very effective. And I started doing, additional training with him And, working with them, he worked with a lot of other professionals from different disciplines that were doing general self development as well as specialization in, social work and clinical social work. He was a, PhD from University of Chicago, And so I worked with him for years as kind of a, graduate auxiliary program, I guess, or maybe we might call it a, a postgrad, You know, type of training, very thorough, training and group work, and then that His background also was in, union and depth psychology. That's the work of Carl Jung, Freud. It includes Adler. It's it's the branch of psychology that doesn't get visited very much. It's James Hillman's work in archetypal psychology, Marian Woodman, Marie Louis van Franz and others and, who have made themselves more of a name in modern times with a lot of, body centered and somatic and trauma literature, somatics, and a lot of art therapy is based in union psychology. So it It was something I was always drawn to being interested in story, mythology.

Kyle Jankowski [00:08:00]:
I've always had a strong interest in My own cultural heritage, which is Polish and Scottish, and then intercultural programming. And so It was a natural fit for me for the things I would have read about anyways. Why not get a degree in it, have the credentialing? And I planned on publishing in it, which I have since then. And my wife also kinda dragged me into doing it at that time too. So we got to do another program together, which was a lot of fun.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:25]:
Mentioned this a little bit, but as you are looking at your graduate programs, And you've mentioned you looked at a number of different ones before deciding on the University of Chicago, and you may have considered a number of ones before you went and got your your master's In psychology as well. Can you reflect back on both of those degrees and the institutions that you did select? What was it about those Specific programs or institutions that made you choose to go to those institutions versus others.

Kyle Jankowski [00:08:53]:
Well, there was. My family is a working class, lower middle class family from Flint. A lot of auto workers and tradespeople, lower tier medical professionals, not lower as in less skilled or, less talented, just the lower paid nurses and And the people that do all the real work in the hospitals and the clinics type of folks. So we did not have the means at this time, and this was even before the Massive spike in tuition that happened nationwide for me to attend the types of schools that I was being accepted to. So Part of the decision for University of Chicago is they gave me a very generous scholarship, and I was able to combine that with my own savings and literally selling off all of my belongings and assets, Including a very lovely motorcycle to pay for the program. So that was a big decision. Also, my mentors at University of Michigan Flint, Kathleen Worley, who I believe since has moved on. I think she teaches at Central Michigan University now.

Kyle Jankowski [00:09:51]:
And doctor Everett j Blakely, who I believe is since deceased. Chuck bay Chuck Bailey, who I believe was part one of the founders of the program, there and was big in addictions work in and around Flint and Denise Dedmon, who was came late into the program, and Jacqueline Harvey Also, she was our she taught addictions, and she also did the cohort, training program for the BSW program. All of them I had very close relationships I developed with, and it was in that very rich mentoring true teacher sort of capacity. And they spoke very highly of the program at UChicago as well as UW Madison and Ann Arbor and other programs around the Midwest. We really have, Along with our industrial heritage and our engineering heritage here that that we're known for in our collegiate system in the Midwest, we have a very strong Social services program and public policy program that sometimes is in the shadow of the east and west coast schools. So I just wanna Put in a shout out to our schools around here for that. So it came out of that, and a lot of it did come down to scholarship money and practicalities. I was also looking at the condition of Flint at the time.

Kyle Jankowski [00:11:04]:
This is circa 2006 to 2008. Things were very bad during that time and not on an upswing. And I was looking to find some new opportunities in ways that I could possibly loop back around to Flint in the future, but I needed to be able to have employment. I had student bills. I wanted to get married. So I just didn't see the opportunities around the area that I was looking for. UC is where social work started in America with Hull House, Jane Adams, the famous OG social worker, Mary Richmond, Abraham Flexner, and others. And they pioneered the whole field, in in Chicago, working with immigrants, working with Native Americans and African Americans that had moved into the cities, Gangs, drugs, they did everything.

Kyle Jankowski [00:11:47]:
It was amazing, the stuff that those ladies did, and it was primarily the women driving the program. I wanna be a part of that. I wanna join. That was really exciting. So that sealed the deal. And a few of the other schools, though I was grateful to be admitted, on my academic merit and my work, their scholarships were a joke compared To the reality of tuition. 1 school offered me $500 in total. So that was a hard pass on that one.

Kyle Jankowski [00:12:10]:
As far as for Pacifica for the later program, there's not a lot of training centers for union and depth psychology that are in North America. There's really, I think, 4. You have Pacifica out in Santa Barbara. You have Naropa University in Colorado, which is a Buddhist based school founded by Shogyam Trungpa who was trained at Oxford, and he was one of the people that escaped with the Dalai Lama from Tibet. But the school is very Buddhist, and that's not the school I was looking for. There's Essex. The that does some, remote learning, I believe, through programs in Canada, And then you have, there's another school in California. California Institute of Integral Studies is primarily a psychology school, Smaller.

Kyle Jankowski [00:12:56]:
They're very good at what they do and and their programs. And Pacifica is considered at the top, And they had a remote learning program that allowed me to do a hybrid of being there in person and being here and being here back in Chicago with my Duties and responsibilities as a director. It was a good call for my existing relationships and my marriage and my clinical obligations to my patients. Usually, a lot of graduate programs, you you leave. University of Chicago has a psychology program, and they said, basically, don't have a job or a marriage. Well, that wasn't gonna work. So there's a lot of practical decisions. You should look for a program that calls to your heart also.

Kyle Jankowski [00:13:34]:
When I walked on the campus at University of Chicago And I walked on the campus at Pacifica doing tours there and exploratory interviews. I was immediately drawn to The good fit of the place. It's the same thing I felt at Michigan also. And if you go to other campuses and you don't feel that, That is also a very important piece of data about yourself and the good fit of belonging to that community. Sometimes your intuitive mind will speak to you in that way. So I put a lot of stock in that along with the hard science.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:09]:
Now you did make it through these programs. You found success in the graduate programs that you went into. It seemed that they were tough programs. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success, and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the graduate school journey?

Kyle Jankowski [00:14:26]:
Reviewing on what has Then your your historic formula for success in school, personal organization, willing sacrifices that you make for socially and otherwise. I did a lot of work with my friends and my family of informing them about the realities of the commitments that I was making. What I did is I made myself Available when I could, showing up for social events and whatnot and maintain connections, but being very clear that this is what I can offer. And it wasn't a take it or leave it type of scenario, but it was also a reminder to them that this is what they have been supporting me to do. This is what they've been wanting me to do. And if they were serious about believing in my success, this is where it's taken us to. So we have to work with that. Being very careful about your budgets and reining in your spending is really important because you're often on a very limited budget with graduate programs.

Kyle Jankowski [00:15:21]:
Being extremely organized with your time, lots of compartmentalization is good, you know, where you can have dedicated time to study. What I did when we did the 2nd program at Pacifica, Vanessa and I dedicated all of Friday and most of Saturday to doing serious block times of study, and we found that that worked for us. So we compacted our entire clinical appointment week and everything else into basically 4 days, which made for a very intense 4 day work week, but there was enough energy and headspace available to be able to really dive into the material and get the most out of. And I found that doing that at When I was at Chicago, it was also very effective. So you have, like you're on with your internship or practicum, and then you're off that Clock. You're on the clock for study, and then you're off that clock. You're on, like, you're on the clock for a gym break or recreational time, and they're off that clock. Make food.

Kyle Jankowski [00:16:13]:
So not in a rigid sort of OCD kind of way, but really allowing yourself to have brain breaks and physical breaks, And do not neglect the body. Do not neglect body. We burn so much blood sugar just thinking that it could be the same as what you burn during a workout, And people can be exhausted from just reading their class materials and going through the books and listening to the podcast and listening to the mixed media stuff that's part of a lot of programs now. So you have to find and recognize that formula that has worked for you and then advance it, revolutionize it, Keep working with it. You don't have to start from 0 every time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:49]:
I appreciate you sharing that. Now you got your degree in social work. Later, you got your degree in psychology. As I mentioned at the beginning, you have these 2 specific things that you're doing with your center and working with young adults, young Children, talk to me about how you're taking that information that you learned in that MSW, in that other master of arts, And you're incorporating that into the work that you're doing on a daily basis.

Kyle Jankowski [00:17:16]:
So I learned a lot about group work At the MSW program, I can't speak to the program currently. But at the time, the group work program At University of Chicago was very poor as far as the training. It was embarrassingly poor. It used to be very legendary, but it was not good. All the training I received was from my clinical mentor, Kevin, And he trained us in all the classical stuff, the new emerging things, stuff from AA hospital groups, retreat centers, Intercultural studies, all kinds of stuff. So I was very confident coming out of that training with him of applying it. I also had had a lot of Not group therapy experience, but I had been a swimming coach for 8 years. I had taught music and drum corps at Several area high schools around Flint.

Kyle Jankowski [00:18:02]:
I've been a lifelong musician. I've been a tutor in an elementary school. So I I had a lot of experience with the youth, And I wanted to continue that work with youth into working in school settings, community centers, outreach programs, which I've done since then. So it was both the practical experience. It was the not real experience. Sometimes we say, you know, that's the other resume stuff that that was instrumental. It was the theory. It was also being in groups.

Kyle Jankowski [00:18:33]:
Part of real clinical Training to be a psychotherapist or a clinical social worker requires that you work on your own stuff, your baggage, your shadow, your Skeletons in the closet, whatever you, you know, wanna call them. It's not enough to just do cognitive therapy. There has to be a lot There has to be a lot of working with accountability for yourself, atonement for some people through religious lens, things like that. And Psychotherapy has that confessional quality to it even if we don't wanna think that it does. We can take it through a lot of different lenses, But, essentially, you're confronting the parts of your humanity and the parts of your current and past life that are Not functional or not good for yourself or others, not good for society, not good for you being an upstanding citizen wherever you go with it. So that was really essential. The theory at University of Chicago is very heavy. It's a very theory heavy program, And they love their research.

Kyle Jankowski [00:19:34]:
So having a lot of books, which may not be popular anymore because of whatever current political wave The student finds himself in and things go in and out of fashion, but there's it's worth returning to the classics to understand why we still need to study them or why we do actually need to leave them in the past, but learn from them. There's a reason, and I don't just mean the western classics, but that's true also. But whatever is the classic literature in your field. If you're only reading things that were written after the year that you were born, I would really question the seriousness that you have for Your field of study. The reading only postmodern literature is a problem and will create deficits of what you can do effectively in your field. You need to pair it with If you respect it as a body of literature, you need to pair it with the classical stuff also because it's the how we got here. There's a lot of books in our field too that are about Psychotherapy and working with communities and families, it's a lot of the human condition. So we have a giant mountain of literature and film and art and sculpture about that that crosses cultures, that crosses societies, crosses gender, everything.

Kyle Jankowski [00:20:47]:
And if the theory gets too heady and heavy, even if you're in business or in marketing, go back to some human stories. Go back to some relatable things that where you watch something or you went to a music festival or an art gallery or you were Out in a national park somewhere or it was a dinner table conversation with your grandmother or it was coffee with your neighbor who chain smokes sitting on the curb in your apartment block, but somehow has got a lot of wisdom to them in their grizzled life. Go back to what how did the light bulb turn on with those people? Bring that into and look for similar experiences out there in the world outside of the literature. Remind yourself of why you got into this. It's about halfway through your program, you're gonna say, why am I doing this? This is terrible. Am I gonna survive this? Sheer will and frustration And grit, it will not get you through it. There's got to be heart. There's gotta be passion.

Kyle Jankowski [00:21:46]:
There's gotta be calling. There's gotta be vocation in the original sense of that and in the modern sense of that that brings you into it. And I can say that about my profession, and I can say that about the many forms I've taken with still true. When I don't feel that anymore, I'm done.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:00]:
Now as you look back at the education that you had and you think about people that are coming beyond you, that are thinking about graduate school In many different areas, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Kyle Jankowski [00:22:16]:
Something that can't be replaced by AI. Something that is not trendy and fashionable right now where you can make a lot of money and be really hot with it and because You're disposable. Over specialization has its perks. It also has its major drawbacks when its time is done. And if you're not adaptable, that's gonna be a real problem for your ability to live and sustain yourself and make money and take care of your family and your other obligations. So if you there are people, though, that are Trendsetters and fame chasers and money chasers, and they're on they're in one thing, and they're on the next thing. They're on the next thing, and they've got kind of that gypsy personality, we might call it, and they can just jump from thing to thing to thing and actually be successful at There are very few people that are like that. And scientific systems personality tests like the Enneagram, the Myers Briggs, and others that are very reliable also back that up.

Kyle Jankowski [00:23:16]:
And if you don't test as one of those people, you probably shouldn't do it despite the hype. I've seen I've had a lot of people show up in my office that have done that wanting to be their older brother or sister or their father or their mother who is that personality or their friends Chasing that type of thing, whether it's through modern media or it's through the business world or they followed a boyfriend or girlfriend or they thought it would be a cool profession. But they didn't have that deep conversation with themselves about why they're drawn to this and what their what their reasons are for getting into it. If your reasons are to appease someone else, That's gonna lead you to a lot of Volley also. You can do it for a long time, but you'll burn out. And when you burn out hard, you spend a lot of money and a lot of time, And then what are you gonna do? So a lot of younger people and a lot of people changing professions are concerned about wasting their opportunity. Well, the illusion that's put out there about a lot of the hype masters in professional fields is that you gotta do their field, and you gotta do their thing, and You gotta do what's the new thing. That's not as they said in the sixties, that's not where it's at.

Kyle Jankowski [00:24:22]:
So, also, you can't just follow your passions if you don't have work ethic. Because if you don't have any grit, You're not going to do it when it's not fun, so you gotta be very honest with yourself about how motivated are you by pleasure, by immediate reward, By you get a big paycheck, these types of things, we can superficially say, like, oh, that's not me, or I'm not motivated by these things, Popularity, fame, whatever. But if you are that, again, there's gotta be that reckoning with yourself because it'll get yourself into trouble. It's been 9 years, and you haven't finished your 2 year master's degree because you've changed it over and over again. All the money spent and time. It's very preventable.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:00]:
Okay. I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for sharing everything that you just Talked about, but also challenging people to think about things in a little bit different way because I think it is important. It is important to be able to think outside of the conventional and be able to think about where your goals are leading you, what where your aspirations are leading you, And it may not be in the conventional means, so I really encourage you all to listen to what Kyle just said and to consider that for yourself. But, Kyle, thank you for being here, and I wish you all the best.

Kyle Jankowski [00:25:34]:
You're welcome. Thank you very much. I really enjoyed this.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:37]:
The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.eduforward/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon As we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flint grad office at umflint.88. It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASBA world.

Embarking on a journey towards graduate education is a significant decision that can profoundly shape one's career and personal growth. In a recent episode of the Victors in Grad School Podcast hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, the conversation centered around the critical aspects of choosing the right graduate program. The episode provided valuable insights into the multifaceted process of selecting a program that aligns with individual aspirations and goals. Here, we delve into the key considerations and guidance offered, empowering prospective graduate students to make informed decisions.

Understanding Personal Goals and Aspirations

Dr. Lewis emphasized the importance of understanding personal goals and aspirations when considering graduate school. It's essential for individuals to reflect on their career ambitions, areas of interest, and long-term objectives to identify a program that resonates with their professional and academic trajectory. By gaining clarity on personal motivations, prospective graduate students can make informed choices that complement their individual aspirations, leading to a more fulfilling educational experience.

Impact of Graduate Education on Career Advancement and Personal Growth

Graduate education wields a profound influence on career advancement and personal growth. During the podcast, Dr. Lewis highlighted how advanced education can significantly impact earning potential and open up avenues for career progression. Understanding the link between graduate education and professional development is crucial in evaluating the long-term benefits and implications of pursuing a specific program.

Importance of Hard and Soft Skills

Beyond academic knowledge, the significance of honing both hard and soft skills in graduate education and employment was underscored. Graduate programs offer a rich environment for developing critical thinking, problem-solving, and leadership abilities alongside specialized expertise, making it imperative for aspirants to seek programs that foster holistic skill development, enhancing their competitive edge in the job market.

Building a Professional Network

Networking opportunities provided by graduate programs are invaluable for fostering professional connections and broadening one's sphere of influence. Dr. Lewis shed light on the significance of building a professional network through graduate education, emphasizing how strong industry connections can bolster career prospects and provide access to mentorship and career opportunities.

Different Types of Graduate Programs

The podcast delved into the diverse array of graduate programs, encompassing master's degrees, doctoral degrees, and specialized degrees in various fields. Understanding the nuances and focal points of each program type is essential for applicants to align their academic pursuits with their professional goals and aspirations.

Application Process and Requirements

Navigating the intricacies of the application process, including GPA considerations, admission requirements, test scores, letters of recommendation, and personal statements, was a focal point of the discussion. Dr. Lewis provided valuable insights into the common questions found on graduate school applications and advised applicants to diligently complete all requirements to facilitate a seamless application process.

Financial Aid and Scholarships

Exploring avenues for financial aid, scholarships, and potential employer education benefits was emphasized as an integral part of evaluating graduate programs. Dr. Lewis underscored the importance of seeking out scholarship opportunities, understanding application deadlines, and exploring fully funded options to alleviate the financial burden of advanced education.

Quality of Graduate Program and Campus Life

The quality of a graduate program extends beyond academic curriculum, encompassing faculty background, student-faculty ratio, resources, and campus life. Prospective students were encouraged to delve into the nuances of campus life, commitment to diversity and inclusion, and the support services available, ensuring a conducive and enriching educational environment.

Selecting the right graduate program entails a comprehensive assessment of personal goals, program dynamics, financial considerations, and campus life. The insights shared in the Victors in Grad School podcast equip aspiring graduate students with essential guidance to navigate this pivotal decision, empowering them to embark on a transformative educational journey that aligns with their aspirations and sets the stage for future success.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:
Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]:
Thank you so much for being here today. I am doctor Lewis. I'm the director of graduate programs here at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you here today. And, as I said right before, if you have as you're joining, Just make sure that you put your full name in the breakdown, of who you are so that we know so that I do know who who is attending, so We can contact you and reach out afterwards with a follow-up. But today we're gonna be talking about choosing the right graduate program. There are so many different graduate programs that are out there, and it's so important to be able to do the things that you need to do to find the program that is the right fit for you. Whether that's here at the University of Michigan Flint or wherever you plan to go, there are things that you can do today That will help you to be able to find that right fit.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:09]:
And there may be more than 1 right fit as well, But there's good questions that you need to be asking and things that you can be doing as you're going through this process of searching And reviewing and exploring the programs for yourself. And that's what I hope to be able to share with you today, to be able to help you in that. So Let's talk about a few things we're gonna be covering today. So couple things that we're gonna be covering today. These are a few things that we're gonna be covering today. Wanna talk to you about Looking internally at the goals, the aspirations, the things that that you have for yourself that are important to you, so that you know why you're doing what you're doing, but also what you're looking for As you're exploring these different graduate programs because you have to know yourself to be able to best advocate for yourself to know the program that's going to be the right fit. You also need there's some definitely some different factors, some different things to look at as you're going from program to program and you're reviewing those programs. So I wanna make sure that you have some context there to be able to know what to look for there, Understanding the graduate student experience, and then we're also gonna be talking about the application process as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:29]:
So let's talk a little bit about your goals and aspirations. Went too far there. 1st and foremost, as you're considering graduate school, every person has to take the time to be able to really look internally amongst yourself to be able to better understand why are you going to do this, what are you trying to accomplish, What are the goals that you have set before yourself? Is it that you're in a career and you want to move to the next phase of that career? Or you've talked to people about being able to get into a specific job in the in the place that you're In or you see yourself in a different company or in doing something else down the road. And to get there, you need a certain type of degree Or a certain a graduate credential behind your name. There's lots of different factors, lots of different reasons that people choose to go to graduate school and understanding that for yourself is going to help you to be able to then take that next step to look at different programs and understand what you need to be doing To be able to look at those programs and understand what that program is going to offer you and whether that is going to help you to get to where you want to be. And then also as you are looking at that next phase, and this kinda goes into the looking at the programs that we're gonna be talking about and some of the factors, Is looking at the different opportunities and resources that are available to you as you are looking at, the future. There are different resources that are available that if you really need to really delve a little bit deeper into setting goals for yourself And being able to understand your aspirations a little bit more. There are things that are out there online that you can turn to to be able to Better understand what your skill set is, where your strengths lie, where maybe some of your weaknesses lie So that you can then say, well, based on those strengths, based on those weaknesses, what might be a graduate program that I might be interested in as well? Now you may say to yourself, I already know what program I'm looking at.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:46]:
I know the institutions that I'm interested in. That's great. But if you don't, Taking the time ahead of time to get to know yourself is the first is a first step for you to be able to make sure that you are able to, move forward. So a couple of things that I want to I always want to touch on, and this is some kind of some interesting factors As you're looking at graduate school and graduate education, graduate education has a huge impact on career advancement and personal growth. All of studies, if you look out, across many there's many different studies that are out there. But if you look at, this is just 1 study that I pulled. The and this one study, on average, employees with their bachelor's degree earn a medium average about 61,000 over the course of their career, While employees possessing a master's degree earn 78,000 per year. And then as you continue to get those additional credentials, you had the opportunity to be able to expand that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:46]:
And all of these are based on specific career areas too, and the amount that you can make in those careers can vary greatly Based on the career aspect as well. Now Georgetown University Center on On, education in the workforce found that not only in the sense of just annual income Is there a exponential increase? But over the lifetime of a career, you can Make so much more by getting that graduate credential. So you can see here that individuals with bachelor's degrees Can earn up to 2,270,000 over the lifetime. And with an advanced degree, you can earn up to 30% more. So there is a lot of opportunities there for you to be able to expand in many different ways. Not only does it expand your earning potential, but it also increases your opportunities for getting hired And increases the opportunities for you to get a promotion. So as you're looking at these different opportunities and you may be choosing to go to graduate school because of that, But 36% of employers reported that they would be unlikely to promote Someone who didn't have a college degree and 27% of the employees employers are seeking candidates with a master's degree or above. So all of those pieces are really important as you're thinking about these.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:22]:
And then as you're looking at your graduate education, As you're looking at the graduate programs that you're considering, many employers are looking for people that have Not only direct hard skills, things that you're learning in the classroom that are preparing you academically, But they're really looking for those soft skills. So taking advantage and looking for programs that give you opportunities for things like internships or externships or clinical experiences, Work study. Any of these type of opportunities that allow for you to get that practical experience is really important And gives you an opportunity to be able to learn the the soft skills and the hard skills that you're going to be needing. So soft skills, when I'm talking about soft skills, That's typically out of class learning, things that you might learn in an internship, an externship, a work study like I have on here, Things like time management, collaboration, creative thinking, problem solving, working with others, you know, all kinds of factors like those are things that That employers are looking for as you are looking at going for that. On top of this, be being in a graduate program builds your network. It gives you not only a network of people from academia, faculty members that have their own networks that they can tap you into, but on top of that, There are others that are in the program with you that you can build on and work with to be able to build that professional network for yourself as well. So let's talk a little bit about graduate programs. So there are many different graduate programs that are out there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:03]:
There's tons of different Graduate, there's tons of different graduate programs that are available to you as a, as a student. And it's important for you to be able to understand and to know what type of graduate programs are out there, but also How do you find what the differences are in those graduate programs? So first and foremost, as we're looking at different graduate programs, I'm gonna say there's a couple of different things that you need to be thinking about as you are going to look at the differences between graduate programs. 1st and I'm gonna start with this the first the 2nd bullet point here is the first one. 1st is the type of degree. So There are master's degrees, there are doctor degrees, depends on and depending on the type of degree that you're looking at will depend on how long that program is. So a master of arts, a master of science, you may be looking at a PhD, an EdD. There are specific degrees in specific areas. Like In social work, you have MSW.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:10]:
So many different types of degrees that are out there, And depending on the degree itself may determine what you have to do to be able to get the degree itself as well. So you have to look at that and look at the focus of the programs themselves. Every program is a little bit different. I saw that 1 person on here was interested in, some in in biology or communications. And A general master's in communications is is one aspect, but then many times within the programs, there are concentrations, There are opportunities to take specific courses, and that goes back to what are you trying to get out of this? Are you trying to get a better understanding of what let's say with communication. Are you trying to become, are you trying to find program that is going to help you to be a better communicator or a better communication leader within your organization. Do Do you wanna understand organizational communications? Do you want to do something that is more, targeted toward, maybe a combination of communications and marketing. There there's lots of different there's lots of different programs that are out there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:32]:
Do you wanna do something that has more of a, You know, a journalistic aspect to it that is more creative writing and communications. You know, there's there's every program is a little bit different, In every program based on the faculty that are in the program, the programs will have a little bit different spin. So each program is unique, And you need to be able to really read well and ask good questions about what the program goals are, What they want students to take out of the program and based on what they want you to take out of the program and the classes that you're taking, is that going to get you To those aspirational goals that you've set for yourself, or is there a different program that will help you to get there better? The program could be at a public university, a private university, you know, depending on that will determine the size of the program and you wanna look at that too Because, you know, if a program has an open admission policy and on average, they're bringing in a 100 new students every every term, That's a pretty big program versus a program that brings in 2 or 3 students a year, and then it becomes a very competitive program. And the and with a very small program, you're gonna know that you you are going to have a lot more expectation to be very actively involved in that education. The difference between undergrad and graduate work is the the focus of the of the the topics that you're gonna be talking about In undergrad, for those that have never gone to graduate school, you're gonna find that in graduate school, you are really delving deep into that specific targeted topic that you wanna go into. Many students love going to graduate school because of the fact that you are focusing on something that you're passionate about Versus in an undergraduate degree, you tend to be focusing somewhat on that, but then also taking other courses To get to the end goal of getting the bachelor's degree itself. So these are things that you need to be thinking about. These are things that you need to be looking at, And I always tell students that as you're comparing programs, set up a Excel spreadsheet, set up a Google A sheet and build out some columns in that spreadsheet for yourself that looks To each of the unique programs and each of the, each of the program and what each program offers And try to align the questions and have and be able to set the questions that you have for each program the same So that you can find out, okay, what is this program offering me? What is this program offering me? What is this program offering me? And then you can look at them side by side, And you can align what each offers you to find the program that has that good fit for yourself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:38]:
Also in graduate work, you have a lot of opportunities here to be able to engage very closely with faculty and with research. With many graduate degrees, there's lots of opportunities for practical experience, but also research experience, And and that's an important thing because it, again, lets you delve deeper. Some graduate programs will require research, Will require that you have a thesis at the end or some large research project at the end. If you're in a doctorate, You have a dissertation typically at the end, so it's important to understand what is the expectation in the program For you to be a learner, for you to be a researcher, for you to be a writer, and make sure that Whatever those expectations are within the program that it aligns with what you're looking for and what you're comfortable with. And I'm gonna say That you're comfortable with but that at times you sometimes wanna push yourself too, out of your comfort zone, into something you might not be comfortable with But that will push you, challenge you, and prepare you for the future as well. But research is a It's a great opportunity for you to be able to find faculty with similar interests and be able to tap into them. There's nothing that says that you can't Reach out to faculty. Look at the websites because many times faculty will be listed and you'll be able to see Who those faculty members are and what their interest areas are, and you can always reach out.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:13]:
Ask them questions. Explain your own interest, Especially if the program is a, is a program that is a has limited seats, Being able to reach out early, have those conversations, learn more about the faculty, show that interest that you have in the program, It may give you a little bit of a leg up or may not. Some programs, especially on the PhD side, will require That you do that research ahead of time and you find a faculty member that would work with you on a research topic. So we have a PhD in computing here at the at the University of Michigan Flint. One of the requirements of that program is that you're going to be doing your due diligence, You're going to be then reaching out to faculty members after you've looked at the faculty, they're at their research, And you found someone that is willing to work with you on a research topic. So that is a unique factor of that program alone, But you need to look at each program that you're considering to be able to understand and better be able to align and see, Is this program fit? Does that program fit with what I'm looking for? Couple other things to think about. Accreditation is very important. You may or may not have ever heard that word, but accreditation is what pro every program should have some type of accreditation.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:46]:
Many programs are accredited by a national body, A body that will say that, that this program has gone through the steps to make sure that Not only is there are there courses and are is the academic solid, but it's preparing students well, and it's getting students prepared for the workforce. They look at Metrics in regards to, career placement. After the fact, they look at entering credentials. It's a very Extensive process that, oh, that assures you that the Program is of quality, so you wanna look at that. Wanna make sure that if a program is on probation, that they're taking the step, because sometimes programs will be get get put on probation for small things, things that are not, you know, vastly problematic, But they might be they need to make a tweak in in in some courses or they need to make a tweak in something else. So sometimes you'll see that a program says we're on probation, for our accreditation. Ask a question. Just say, what does that mean? What are you working on to get out of Out of that probationary, period, sometimes programs have to start on on probation.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:01]:
So if it's a new program, They might not have that initial accreditation for a year or so, so ask those questions. Are you accredited? Who are you accredited through? And and ask that along the way. Program reputation, this was a little bit harder to come by. You can always go online and there's lots of sites that will say this is the best program for this. I always Tell students to be wary of those because a lot of those are either, one, Being created through surveys of peers. So peer every year, let's say for US News and World Report, US News and World Report sends out an email to people all over the country and they say, who do you think is the best education program For education graduate program, and they'll ask lots of different questions about what you know about different programs. Well, The problem is is that there's many different education programs that are out there, and the people that are filling these surveys out may or may not know about other programs. So what happens with a lot of these entities is that they are a starting place, but they can be subjective.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:23]:
And because they either are being made from surveys of peers or surveys that are sent to institutions, so For the latter, institutions sometimes will get these surveys, they'll fill them out themselves, And then they learn, okay, what is this group really looking for? And they can make tweaks to move their ranking up as well. So I just always warn people to say if you look at US News and World Report, if you look at, any of these other ones that are out there and you see these rankings that are out there, you can use them as a starting point, But just know that there are many other programs that might end up being a better fit, and they may not be on that list, but that doesn't mean That they are bad programs. It just means that that for some reason or another, they're not showing up there. And So I always encourage you to look beyond the national rankings per se and find the questions, The factors, the things that are most important to you, and then look into the programs. Again, setting them side by side And seeing how the programs answer your questions to be able to make sure that you're finding the program that's the best fit, Not just the program that comes up on a list as the best program per se. You also wanna look at the program format, but also the lifestyle that you will have as a part of that program. So when I talk about program format, 1st and foremost, what that means is is is how it how is the how are the courses being offered? Is this a fully in person program? Is it a Hybrid program where you'll have some in person, some online. Is it a fully in person program Where you're coming in with a cohort of students, and you're gonna be with those students from the beginning of the program to the end of the program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:27]:
Is it a full time program where you're gonna be taking Fourteen to 16 credits every term. Is it a part time program where you may be working Full time and taking some classes at night or on the weekend. You know, look at the types of formats that are out there. What works best for you and what works best for the life that you're trying to live? Many students are not able to just automatically quit their job if they have a job already. They're trying and they may be trying to say, look at a program that they can fit into the work that they're doing and then they can utilize that work to be able to Then, be able to, take classes while you're working. But if you're looking at, hey, I'm stopping work Where I'm moving to a brand new area and I wanna do this, I wanna get done as quickly as possible to be and I wanna just completely focus on this, Then a full time program probably would be a great opportunity. You also wanna look back at what I said before. Are there opportunities within the program for you to be able to get practical experience, Not just in class experience, but practical experience, whether that's through graduate assistantships, Whether that's through internships, externships, clinical opportunities, what type of opportunities are there? How many can you take advantage of? Because the more especially for the programs that are very tangible about the outcome at the end of what you're gonna be using that for, Having practical experience will not only broaden your network, but it will also offer you opportunities to be able to hone those skills That you're going to need to be the practitioner that you want to be in the end.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:26]:
You also wanna look at again, as you're factoring and looking at these, you wanna look at the what Are the admission requirements? What are the what are the qualifications for you to be able to be even be considered for the program? What are the requirements for getting for applying And for getting accepted into the program, each program is going to be unique. Many programs will may have a GPA, a certain GPA that they're gonna be looking at. They may be having a, letters of recommendation, personal statements, maybe a test score. Some programs will require either a GRE or an MCAT or a GMAT or an LSAT. You know, it just depends on the type of degree that you're interested in, but you're going to need to look at the websites, and the website should be very clear. They should explain everything that you need to be doing to apply to that institution and be considered for admission. So you want to make sure that That is something that on that spreadsheet that we were talking about, put those in there too. Make sure that you're adding that into the mix So that stew so that that as a potential student that you know what you have to do.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:39]:
You also wanna look at how do you have to apply. There are some programs at some institutions where you just apply through the regular website. There may be an application fee, there may not. There may be opportunities for you to get an application fee waiver, and maybe not. So it just depends. Some some some institutions don't even have an application fee. There are other programs that use what are called credential assembly service, CAS application systems. So at our institution, we have a few of those.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:12]:
So our physical therapy, our occupational therapy, our physician assistant Studies and our public health programs all use different CAS application systems. What that means is it is a external application system That you use to be able to pull all your documents together, and then you it allows you to apply to Many different programs across the United States that are available to you, and it's a one stop place for you to be able to say, I have these 5 programs. Here's the 5 programs. I wanna apply to all 5 of these. Once your file is complete, You then can easily submit those and you pay the application fee through that that that Cas application system itself. But each program is gonna be a little bit unique, so you wanna make sure that you really look closely at what those differences are. And At the same time, look at the timeline because there are some programs that have very hard application deadlines, There are other programs that may admit students on a rolling application basis, meaning that as Applications come in and they're complete, they will be considered, and that they'll consider them up to a certain point. So if they say the final deadline for fall of 2024 is August 1st, well, that's the hard deadline.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:40]:
Well, it's January, Let's say right now and as you are looking at being admitted for that fall term, you would want to then say, Okay. I can apply at any point between now and August 1st knowing that if you have everything in tomorrow And everything's complete, they're the program will consider you. There are other programs that will say you have to have your application in by this date for Early admission and this date for regular admission. So every program is just a little bit different and you have to look at that closely. The class size, again, important, good question to ask is to say, is there a certain number of Seats that you have within this graduate program, some programs have a set number of seats that they can admit. Others will be just an open admission type of process looking for the best fit, and they'll continue to fill. Also, that student faculty ratio. The big difference between a program that has, you know, 5 full time faculty members and you have 60 incoming students every fall versus 5 full time faculty members in, let's say, 10.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:56]:
That faculty student ratio is gonna be very different and you're gonna have a lot more one to 1 connection In that class of 10, then you are in 60. So, again, just something to ask and to look at. Also financial aid and scholarships. Different institutions will offer different types of, financial aid packages in In scholarships that are available, I always encourage graduate students to fill out the FAFSA. No matter if you think you're going to get financial aid or not, if you're a domestic student, Filling out the the federal application for for or the free application for federal student aid is very important because it will, at times, Allow for you to be able to be considered for scholarships that may be available at the institution. You also need to look at the institution to determine whether or not there are unique Scholarships and if there are specific processes you need to follow to be able to be considered for those scholarships. So for example, Internally here at the University of Michigan Flint, we have some scholarships that are donor based scholarships that you have to apply through our financial aid office 4. So and there are specific deadlines that you have to follow to be able to do that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:10]:
So you want to make sure that you wanna make sure that if you do have or if there are specific deadlines for those scholarships, so you don't miss those. If you're an international student, sometimes students sometimes there are scholarships that are specific to that population, so you have to look at that as well. If you're looking at specific programs, sometimes there are program specific scholarships, and there may be specific criteria that you have to follow to be able to be considered for that as well. So it's just really important to be able to start early, look at the opportunities to be able to see, are there scholarships that are available? There are Some programs that may be fully funded graduate opportunities, but then there's many other opportunities that may have Small amounts of scholarship that would help you along the way, but they're not gonna completely pay for your graduate education as well. One of the other things that I'll that I'll put out there that, before I go into the internships and networking opportunities here is that One thing that I always encourage students to do as they're considering graduate school is if you're working full time, is to talk to your employer and let them know of the interest that you have in continuing your education, especially if it's something that would benefit you And benefit the work that you're going to be doing. Because many employers may have an education benefit That is there that you may not even be aware of. And it may be that your employer offers a a tuition reimbursement, Which basically means that you'll pay upfront and then you'll get reimbursed for maybe it's 1 class, maybe it's 2 classes a term, but That after the fact, they will reimburse you, or maybe they have a specific scholarship based program where You turn in and say, okay, I'm taking these 6 credits and they will pay for 3 upfront. Each each program is a little bit unique.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:11]:
Each employer is a little bit unique, but many times, people don't realize it's That it is available as a benefit. So I encourage people to look into that, especially if it's especially if you're looking at a program that's going to enhance the work that you're doing. Because I know sometimes people are a little bit afraid of bringing that up, especially if the employer may think that it's gonna detract You from the work that you're doing. So you, you know, if you're asking those questions to HR and, you know, that's definitely something you have to just keep in mind that they might Say, well, how is this gonna impact, you know, your work? And you'll have to have an answer to that as well. We already talked about internships, But it is important to look at those when you're looking at graduate programs. Are there internships, externships, clinical opportunities available for you? And, being able to look at look at those as you're going along. And then also what type of alumni network is available And can you tap into that alumni network? How do you develop a network for yourself, whether it's through the interactions that you have with current students, Interactions with other students in other classes or alumni as well. So those are all factors that you need to be thinking about and looking at in general.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:28]:
So couple things, and I'm just gonna kinda go through a number of these. So how do you determine the quality of a good graduate program? So 1st and foremost, you wanna look at your faculty. In when you're looking at graduate work, faculty relationships are so critical and so key. So you wanna look at what what type of background do the faculty that are teaching you have? Have they, You know, have they been teaching for a long time? What is their academic background? Were they working in the field? And are they bringing some of that back to you as a, as a student. And, what type of classes are they are they teaching in? Are there are they teaching in some specific areas, specific areas where they may have had direct experience in? Look at those type of things to be able to better understand who is gonna be teaching you and what are they gonna be able to to, In the end, teach you to be able to be the practitioner, the, the practitioner that you want to be down the road. How accessible are the resources on campus, and how accessible is it for you to be able to access the faculty? That goes into that faculty to student ratio. That also goes back to the opportunities that you have for for research. You know, it's definitely a question to say, you know, for me, it's really important to be able to have a close relationship with my faculty member.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:03]:
And how easy is it for students to develop those relationships with faculty? One of the other things that you can do and you can ask of any program is to say, is there a current student that I can talk to? That I could talk to about their experience in the program. And most graduate programs are gonna be more than willing to Find someone that you can talk to to connect with, to be able to get a better feel for, 1, is this the right program for you? And 2, You know, here, what they as students are are experiencing in class, out of class, and see if that type of experience, what they've had Is a similar experience that you wanna have? What are the facilities like on campus? Is it up to date? Is it, is it something that is going to offer you, state of the art opportunities to be able to hone your skills and help you to be able to push you in the direction that you wanna go and and push you toward the the things that you want to learn. What's the social environment like? Now this may not be as big of a deal for you, especially if you're looking at an online program or or a hybrid program where primarily you're gonna be taking things, online from afar and you're not taking advantage of the social aspects. But if you are gonna be on campus, either part time or full time, that's an important thing. It's to look at what type of opportunities are there to connect With others to build that network, to be able to create those relationships with others, and then also looking at alumni. And this is another good question to ask Programs that you have an interest in is what are your alumni doing? What are some of the pathways that they've followed after getting that degree At your institution, is there someone that is an alum that I can talk to, that they would be willing to talk to me about their experience And how it helped them to be able to get to where they are. Those are all questions that are fair game And definitely something that you should ask because it's something that will help you to better understand the program and to better understand what that program can offer you in the end. So as you're looking at the experience of a student of a graduate student, as I said, Reach out, talk to the programs that you have an interest in, be able to better on to better understand what the student experience is like.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:36]:
So ask students, what is the experience like in class? What is the experience like out of class? You know, why did they choose this program, And what have they found since they've been in the program? What are they like most? What are they like? What are they like least? What do they wish they knew before they started in the program at that institution. Those are all great questions and things that will help you as you prepare yourself for for the future. Campus life, building, we talked about that in the last slide a little bit. But But especially if you're gonna be on campus, those are factors and things that you'll want to definitely look at and see. And then, couple other things just to think about Is the, the the university's commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusion? If if that is important to you and more for more and more students that I talk to, it is. You wanna look at look at the faculty that you're going to be having. Look Get the opportunities on campus. Look at the things that the that the university is doing to support diversity, equity, inclusion on campus and whether that supports the needs that you have as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:38:49]:
Support services, there's lots of support services that are on different campuses, for disability services, for, academic resources, and what are the what's the library like? Is there tutoring available? You know, lots of different is there a writing center on campus? You know, all kinds of factors like those. Those are all things that you should be asking and looking into Because you never know what type of services you may need to be able to support you, to help you to find success in the future. Couple other things, just to keep in mind. Again, understanding the application process, wanna make sure that That you do understand the application process. The because there will be some typical things that they're gonna be asking for. I'll kind of bring some of those up. There's different types of applications. I already talked about those.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:39:44]:
The questions on the applications are typically going to be pretty similar. Especially Generic wise, they're gonna wanna know more about you, your demographics, you know, what you're going to need. If you're a domestic, international student, there's different needs. There there may be specific questions on the application that are program specific as well that you'll need to answer along the way. The biggest piece as you're going through that application is to make sure that you answer everything fully. You don't wanna leave anything to chance. Leave any blanks that then the the institution is going to have to follow-up with you on because if they do, There is the chance that then your applications kinda just sits out there until we get the answers to those questions. Test scores, Definitely something that many that that some schools will require.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:40:35]:
You'll have to make sure that those official test scores are submitted From the test agency. Same with your transcripts. Some universities will allow for unofficial copies of the transcripts to be sent to be considered. Others will require official copies of your transcripts to be to be sent, to be considered. Some Some institutions will allow for unofficials, but then by the end of your 1st term, official transcripts will have to be received Because we know that some students will still be working on that that undergraduate degree and finishing that up. But In the end, by the end of your 1st term, you will have to make sure that your application, or that your transcripts are in Because otherwise, you won't be able to continue taking classes. So every institution's a little bit different. You need to look at that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:41:24]:
Couple other things, letters of recommendation. It's pretty common that Letters of recommendation wise that you, that that many institutions will require letters of recommendation. Sometimes it's People from your past in academia. So you might ask for a faculty member letter of recommendation or a person that is in a field of practice, professional reference, so you have to look at that and what they're looking for. And some programs will require inter an interview as well, So you do have to look at that too. Thank you very much for being here today. Really appreciate your time. I hope that this has been helpful, And stay in touch.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:42:06]:
Let us know if you have any other questions. Again, my my email, our email here Is flint grad office at umich.edu. Feel free to reach out and to ask any questions that you might have. We'd be happy to help in any way that we can, whether you're planning to attend the University of Michigan Flint or not. You know, we want you to be successful In the journey that you're on. So I highly encourage you to do that and to reach out further. Thank you for your time. Have a wonderful day, And go blue.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:42:38]:
The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing Your education, whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you Prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

Entering graduate school is a significant decision that often requires careful planning, finding the right resources, and making the necessary adjustments for success. In a recent episode of "Victors in Grad School," hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, the conversation with Samara Hough, the director of the Center for Gender and Sexuality at the University of Michigan Flint, provided invaluable insights into her graduate school journey, including her decision to pursue a Master of Social Work (MSW) degree, the challenges she faced, and the resources available for success. This blog post aims to expand on the key points discussed in the podcast, offering a comprehensive guide for prospective graduate students.

Exploring the Decision to Pursue Graduate School

Samara shared her unconventional path to graduate school, which began with an undergraduate degree from the University of Michigan and six years of work experience in the nonprofit sector and state agencies. Her decision to pursue an MSW stemmed from the urge to expand her skills and knowledge beyond what her undergraduate degree offered. This emphasizes the importance of gaining practical experience before embarking on graduate studies, as it allows individuals to identify their areas of interest and potential career paths. Prospective graduate students can benefit from taking a similar approach by gaining work experience to better understand their academic and professional aspirations.

Researching and Choosing the Right Program

When Samara decided to pursue her MSW, she sought out the best program to fit her specific needs. Her experience serves as a reminder of the significance of researching and understanding the offerings of each program. Additionally, she highlighted the importance of exploring education opportunities, such as taking trial classes or talking with current students, to gain insights into the program's expectations and culture. Prospective students should thoroughly research potential graduate programs, considering factors such as course offerings, faculty expertise, and campus environment before making a decision.

Preparing for Success in Grad School

Transitioning into graduate school after several years in the workforce presented Samara with challenges and anxieties. She emphasized the importance of setting oneself up for success by leveraging support resources, such as academic advisors and building relationships with classmates. Prospective students should anticipate and prepare for the transition by seeking advice from current students or mentors, understanding program requirements, and familiarizing themselves with campus resources to facilitate a smooth adjustment into the academic environment.

Connecting Graduate Education to Professional Practice

Samara's insightful reflection on the link between her MSW education and her current work in higher education underscores the practical benefits of graduate education. Her MSW concentration in family systems and grounding in group dynamics and crisis management aligns with her role in the Center for Gender and Sexuality. This connection highlights the importance of aligning graduate education with career aspirations and professional practice. Prospective students should seek programs that offer practical experiences and specialized knowledge that complements their desired career paths.

Finding Support and Resources

Through her work, Samara actively supports students through mental health and crisis concerns. She emphasized the need for graduate students to seek out available resources and support systems on campus, such as mental health services, student organizations, and diverse community programs. It is essential for prospective graduate students to explore and connect with the support resources available within the campus and surrounding community, ensuring holistic support throughout their academic journey.

Samara's experience provides valuable insights for prospective graduate students, emphasizing the significance of thoughtful deliberation when considering graduate education, choosing the right program, and preparing for success. Her journey underscores the interplay between graduate education, professional practice, and community engagement. By taking the time to research, prepare, and seek out available resources, prospective graduate students can navigate the challenges of graduate school effectively and set themselves up for a successful and fulfilling academic experience.

In conclusion, Samara's journey in graduate school exemplifies the importance of a thoughtful, diligent approach to graduate education. Aspiring graduate students can draw inspiration from her experiences to make informed decisions, address challenges, and leverage available resources for a successful academic journey.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:
Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]:
Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, Doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint, really excited to have you back again this week. This week, as always, we are on a journey together. I know that you are either you're on that journey for graduate school, whether it's You're at the very beginning just thinking about graduate school. You're in the thick of it. You've been admitted. You're starting the program, or you're in the thick of it, and you're Actually, in the program and you see that light at the end of the tunnel, no matter where you are, there are things that you can do to find in that graduate school journey, and that's important. So every week, I love being able to talk with you, to work with you, to help you along this journey, To be able to help you to learn some different things, some different skills, some different things that others have done that will help you In the journey that you're gonna be on.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:04]:
I also love being able to introduce you to different people every week that have gone before you, that have gone to graduate school, And have some of their own perspective, but also might have some other resources to share. And this week, we got another great guest with us. Samara Howe is with us today, and Samara is the director of the Center For Gender and Sexuality at the University of Michigan Flint, but she has her own graduate school story. We're gonna talk about that as well. Samara, thanks so much for being here today.

Samara Hough [00:01:32]:
Thank you for inviting me. This is exciting.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:34]:
Well, I'm really excited to have you On and 1st and foremost, we're gonna talk about that graduate journey that you went on yourself. And I'm gonna turn the clock back in time because I know you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan And then went on from there, a little while down the path as you decided to continue your education and getting an MSW from from Wayne State University. So during that time, whether it be during undergrad or during your work experience, Talk to me about what made you decide that you wanted to go to graduate school?

Samara Hough [00:02:08]:
Yes. Well, Chris, it's a interesting journey. I actually had to plan Host be, grad undergraduate to, take 2 years off and get experience, and that turned actually into 6 years of work history, working in a nonprofit realm, working in for the state. There was a time period where I was a CPS worker, and it was actually during that time where Where I thought I felt like there was a kind of a limit. Like, I had reached my limit of kind of what experiences I could get with Which is having the BSW under my belt or, actually, having the BA under my belt because U of M did not have a BSW program at U of M Ann Arbor. Thankfully, here, We have a BSW and a MSW program here at U of M Flint. By the time, I didn't have that option, and so I was just trying to figure out How I can really build my skills and help families over case management, over, like, really dealing with some of the clinical aspects of Kind of really the origins of what may have gotten folks stuck, whether it be emotionally or mental health wise or what have you. And so I thought I went to get my MSW degree and started shopping around institutions.

Samara Hough [00:03:20]:
Actually went first to U of M and I were kind of that I optioned because I was also a working student. I was working full time at U of M Ann Arbor. I really felt that Wayne State gave me an opportunity to work Part we're working my master's part time, and so that was what part of the draws there. And then also just working in the city and just, The learning in the city of Detroit, that was something that was really a big draw for me. My classmates were also working folks And at the time as well, expanding my family, got married, all those kinds of things were happening all while my working part time on my master's degree And working in a crisis agency in Detroit. So that was a little that's a snapshot on that journey. I actually walked across the stage while gosh. I was probably 6 months pregnant at the time when I walked across the stage, and my daughter is now 12.

Samara Hough [00:04:14]:
So that's a little bit of my, experience there. It was not a direct route. And even with that indirect route, I still think, Yeah. There was definitely lessons learned there in the journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:24]:
Now you said that you looked around and you tried to identify the best program for yourself. You chose Wayne State University's MSW program, and every person has different things they're looking for, different reasons. Talk to me about what made Wayne State The right program for you at the time.

Samara Hough [00:04:40]:
I think in part, there are pros and cons to going to a very large institution. I would say my undergraduate experience at U of M Had, again, like, its pros and cons. I wanted a different kind of individual experience as best as I could. So I felt like Wayne State gave more individualized even though it's a bigger Campus as well, but it was definitely rooted in the city as well. And, honestly, it gave a kind of U of M Flint feeling, to be honest, where It's a campus, but it's also in the city, and there was that aspect of it. So I think there was that and then the course offerings. So I actually had a opportunity to take a course there at Wayne State. We could take up to, like, 8 credits without being a a full time or part time students.

Samara Hough [00:05:25]:
And so I took a couple classes there and really enjoyed the instructors, Again, the students and it gave me, like, a trial run, I think, of kind of what to see if if this was something that would be a good fit for me. I think the also, the other route is I was a psychology and women's studies double major, and so didn't doesn't have a didn't have MSW program as I mentioned, A BSW program as I mentioned, and so I was kind of in between. Should it be psychology or should it be actually MSW? And so I've I've been talking to other folks Who were clinicians, whether it be clinical psychologists or, licensed social workers. I felt like the social work route gave me more flexibility. And I Also, at the time, wasn't all the way interested in the PhD route, and so that's something that usually if you go with a master's in psychology, you'd wanna go the full Routes to be able to do the work that you're looking to do. So that's a little bit about I think, for me, I had the opportunity for to try it on.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:19]:
It's nice when you can Do that, and you can have the opportunity to go in and go through that opportunity to test out your professors or test out the campus, test out the feel to see, do I feel like this is the right fit for me? And not everybody has that opportunity, so it's good that you had that opportunity to take advantage of. And it may not be something that Students even think about to consider or think about to try if they are really on the fence of trying to figure out for themselves, is this program really the right right place for me? Is is that might be an option, is to talk to the program and say, you know, I know I've been admitted here. You know, I've been admitted quite a while back. Is there is it possible for me to take a class or sit in on a class And see, you know, what the classes are like and get a feel for it. And not every program probably has even been asked that question, So it's not a bad thing to ask and see if you can take advantage of that. Now you found success in the graduate school journey. And as you said, it was about 6 years or so after you got your bachelor's degree and you'd been working, So there was definitely a transition that you had to make to get back into the groove, get back into school. So as you think about that, What did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into grad school, but what did you also have to do to maintain that success throughout the graduate school experience.

Samara Hough [00:07:48]:
Yeah. Like, I think when I was in my bachelor's degree, I struggled a bit. And so I had that kind of, oh, Kind of worry of, can I handle all of the demand? Like, that kind of concern. And so for me, like, I Took some time to that taking the time and take classes did help. And then also, I I was talking with my adviser about the plan, what I'd like To do with this degree was a part of that. And then, honestly, like, as you get started going back to school, it was kind of a bit of nostalgia, like, To getting my books and, you know, 1st day of class and getting, like, the materials. And then it it was a settling that happened. I think it was just really that initial, like, step that made it have that anxiousness a little bit, butterflies, but I think utilizing those resources, Like your adviser, talking to other students that have been there and really prior to you starting.

Samara Hough [00:08:43]:
The building those relationships, I think, are really important.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:45]:
Now you did get a degree as a MSW, and you're working in higher education now. Little bit of a different field, but definitely still some parallels In regards to to at least what I see in regards to the the the skill set. But I guess as you think back to the graduate education that you went through And what you're doing now, how do you find that what you learned in your graduate degree prepared you for the work that you do daily?

Samara Hough [00:09:13]:
That's a big question. People often think social workers the surprise that their social worker is in higher education. I think there's a growing trend of seeing more of us Even prior to COVID, in terms of supporting students through mental health or crisis concerns, or as I mentioned to you, I was a nontraditional student, Parenting, all the stresses of all of those different things, and I think, you know, we bring that to in our classroom. You know, we're studying and learning, and then also Life is happening at the same time. So I think some of those experiences, like like, I think of some of the courses that I took as far as, Diversity, equity, and inclusion, our center supports members of the LGBTQIA plus community and intersecting identities within them. And so we think about How we are inclusive in our work, how are we really thinking about, you know, identity and elevating voices, and when we think about, You know, communities of color. Like, all those pieces are are central to how we approach our programming. I would also say, our students, Everyone is open to be in the center.

Samara Hough [00:10:17]:
So students come in and out and participate in some of our groups settings, like, core Thursdays and women talk Wednesdays. I mean, those are essentially, like, group support groups, but they're not tagged as support groups. Right? And so and so we offer support to our students. So I think definitely those the grounding in group dynamics, Crisis management skills, because we also support survivors of sex and gender based violence in our office, providing advocacy. Those were all things that, you know, Where courses were things that we're kinda rooted in in in social work. And I would say too, you know, my concentration was in family systems. And so really thinking about How families operate. And then social work really centers around a really core belief that it's the person and the environment.

Samara Hough [00:11:02]:
So what's going on behaviorally? What may be someone's response to something is is not just that it is what something is it's not that something is wrong with them, but We're thinking about analyzing, like, what's the ecology? Like, what is going on, that's surrounding that person that's also in the environment? How they respond to community based violence that's happening in where they live, or maybe there are some things happening generationally when it comes to trauma, or what are some things that are limitations or gaps In terms of services that are available in this community, those are all things that impact individuals, impact our students, impact our families, impact children. So I think Having that mindset is helpful in helping to navigate and guide the direction of the center and also a response to our students. And one thing I think is interesting too, you know, social workers, we're often collaborating with other nonprofit agencies on behalf of or Support of of a of someone, individual or family, and that happens as a part of the division of student affairs. So, like, I'm working at Harvard Student Affairs Connected with the Intercultural Center. I'm connected with CALVS. I'm connected across campus. I'm the dean of students on behalf of of students, the the title nine office. You know, these are all units that we work with on a regular basis.

Samara Hough [00:12:15]:
And so I think having that grounding of that grassroots nonprofit social work experience Also translates here in higher education.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:23]:
So you just talked about a lot of the things that your center does, and I think that as students are considering graduate School, I always say that one of the things that they need to look at are the resources that are available on campus, and we've had some people on, On, the show in the past talking about veteran services or disability services, and you're talking about other services that are available. So Talk to me about some of your thoughts, especially with the populations that your center works with. If you were to talk to Students from the population that you're working with. What are some of the things that you would say to them that they should be really on the look for On the lookout for when they're looking at prospective graduate programs, but also the resources that are available in or around the campus that could support their graduate education.

Samara Hough [00:13:13]:
Sure. I mean, I think one of the biggest pieces that we deal with through our center are Students' concern around safety, their sense of safety. What does that look like? Sense of belonging and also just, I would say, connection as well. And so What resources are available? I think, really, one of the things that we've worked hard at is that partnership, for instance, with CAPS. Right? So mental health services. So being able to know, like, There's nothing taboo about reaching out to therapy. If there's some things that you are maybe have never dealt with or talked about or something that occurred later in life that you need to kind of unpack, Those partnerships getting kind of shored up in terms of feeling in terms of your mental health and, that letting that be a practice of of self care. And I also think about socially.

Samara Hough [00:13:58]:
What are some things that you can how we might be able to get involved? And I know that's harder for maybe some of us that are graduate students or may have other responsibilities outside of school, but I think those connections are can be so so vital because that can help, You know, learn more about resources that are on campus. You know, often students find us at the end of their career. You know, we when I think about Laverne Graduation, which is our Celebration of our LGBTQIA plus students. We've had students find out about Lavender Grad, like, literally their senior year, or they're like as they're exiting graduate Well, that has happened before. But, like, knowing that the center is available to to you beyond a beyond a crisis, but also we are available When you're in crisis, some folks didn't know we have emergency grants through the center. So I think making those connections and knowing what the services are and also, like, if there's Connected with SIL, there are opportunities that for student orgs to get involved in. Like, those are definitely things that you can still have access to even at the graduate grad level. When you think about With the Sorority of Fraternity Life, there are grad chapters that are very active on on our campus and in community in in the Flint area.

Samara Hough [00:15:03]:
So I think just figuring out, like, finding your core groups So people, to connect with and then also knowing your resources and if you need something that At a critical level. But also, no, it doesn't have to be critical all the time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:16]:
I will echo what Samara just said because one of the things she just Talked about was getting involved and finding that community for yourself, and the community could be in your program. And especially if it's a full time program, And you're going to build that community with the core group of people you're going to be in courses with throughout your entire program. But if you're in a part time program, that community is a little bit fluid. So being able to find other communities that where you can connect with other like minded individuals is important And definitely something that will help you to find success and will support you in that success as you move Through your graduate education. So whether it's in one of the groups that that Samara just talked about, whether it's in some other kinda groups, It's finding the right place for yourself within your academic program, outside of your academic program that will help you to build that network for yourself, But also help you to build the support mechanisms that are going to be there throughout that educational experience. So I really appreciate you sharing that because I think that's so important and so important for students to for For any student, for anyone that is thinking about graduate education to think about it, because I think a lot of times, undergraduate students get drawn into it right away. And there's the campus life and the campus feel. And a lot of times, when you're going through graduate school, you're balancing a lot of different things, and the pressure is on, Especially when it comes to academic success and and and really focusing in on the On the on the academic components of the program, but there is student life that is available for graduate students too, and You can take part in anything that is happening on campus.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:07]:
So it's important for you to find that for yourself so that you can find your ultimate fit, But also your group of people and find your ability to be able to find holistic success, not just academic success For you as you go through that program. Now, Samira, as you think back to your own graduate education, as you think back to The conversations, the work that you do with students on a regular basis for people that are thinking about graduate school no matter what field that they're in, Are there some tips that you might offer them that would help them find success sooner?

Samara Hough [00:17:46]:
I think some of the things that may hold someone back are finding funding. And so I think finding out what fellowships or scholarships or what what, kinds of Funding opportunities that may exist within that those schools. Certainly, I actually won a scholarship. It was, like, the women of Wayne scholarship when I was a a graduate student, but those were things that I had to seek out, look for, find out library days, at the time of it well, back in the days when we had to go physically to the library. I mean, we still do, but But there was lots of researching around that, and I think there's certainly some pro depending upon whatever major you major in, there are some Organizations or foundations that will support you in your graduate program, your graduate degree. Like, for instance, SAMHSA, I know offers, like, a Fellowship for minority mental health workers or folks who are interested in mental health and in other organizations. But I think I would say kind of getting Your feet under you as it relates to funding support, getting those kinda shored up. And I think, 2, talking with Did some informational interviews.

Samara Hough [00:18:50]:
So I would say do some informational interviews with other people who have already gotten the degree that you're interested in Essentially, in seeing kinda, like, what were their journey, what were some things that they would have liked to do, or kind of what maybe some Challenges that they encountered or so that you can kind of have a plan of action if that happens with you. So one of the biggest things with social work is that licensing process. People are always asking about that. Right? So finding out, like, what kind of what that would look like for you postgraduate school obtaining those hours of supervision, what are some, like, tips or things when you think about the job market? So all those like, what would be marketable for you depending upon whatever career path that you're on. I remember talking with people who, for instance, were in IT and learning, like, what what are those certificates or things that you would need. And I know those things Change and evolve and, you know, we're in the age of AI, lots of things. So, like, finding out, like, what are some of the again, like, what are some of the gaps or needs in that particular field of choice that that would set you up for success like before at post graduation. And I think just enjoy the journey.

Samara Hough [00:19:53]:
I wanna say that part. Like, there's a lot of preparation. There's connection and finding out more, but I would just say enjoy the journey. There are definitely still professors that I remember Being in those classrooms and learning so much from them and continue to even in continuing education, like, there's some professors that that I just still admire to this day that are doing the work. So enjoy the journey. You know, soak it all up. Don't get too ahead of yourself before it's time, but enjoy enjoy the journey. Grad school is A great opportunity is different than undergrad.

Samara Hough [00:20:23]:
I feel like in my experience, it was like a deeper dive into where I really wanted to be. And I was I was a little anxious on being able to get to those courses that were really tied to, like, the clinical work and wanting to do that so so soon, but just enjoy the journey, I would say.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:39]:
I really appreciate that. Now if people wanna find out more about you, is there a place they can go?

Samara Hough [00:20:43]:
Well, I'm always available at the center, the Center For Gender While they were on 213 USEN, I often will speak with students. So if you're ever interested in social work or the field, you know, I'm definitely open to Chatting about those experiences. I've worked in both nonprofit and higher ed environments. So if you're interested in learning more about that, most of my history has been working with Survivors of sex and gender based violence. And so I can talk about that, like, what those experiences were and also working with with youth and families. So having Those lenses, if you're ever interested in learning more, you can stop by the office. You can also email me. I can definitely put my email address In the chat or in whatever, way to get connected, and I look forward to talking with you all.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:26]:
Well, Samara, I just wanna say thank you. And Samara did talk about her email address if you wanna reach out to her directly. Her email is samara, s a m a r a, lw@umich.edu. You can find her there and be able to shoot her a message if you have specific questions. Samara, thank you. Thank you for sharing your Story for walking us through this journey that you went on, and I wish you all the best. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint programs that will meet your needs.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:04]:
For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon As we embark together on your graduate school journey, if you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flint gradoffice@umflint.edu.

Embarking on the journey of graduate education is an enriching and rewarding experience, but it also comes with its own set of financial challenges. In this comprehensive guide, we'll explore various avenues for securing financial support for graduate studies. From scholarships to assistantships, student loans to tax credits, Dr. Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint, shares valuable insights and tips for navigating the complex financial landscape of graduate school.

Avenues for Financial Support

When it comes to funding graduate education, there are numerous avenues that students can explore. Dr. Lewis emphasizes the importance of being proactive and resourceful in seeking financial support. From scholarships and grants to assistantships and student loans, each avenue has its own set of considerations and application processes.

Navigating the Scholarship Landscape

Scholarships are an invaluable resource for graduate students, and Dr. Lewis provides key insights into navigating the scholarship landscape. He advises students to look for specialized scholarships based on their academic area and demographics. Additionally, he underscores the importance of crafting a compelling narrative in scholarship and grant applications, emphasizing the need for thoroughness and personalization.

Importance of Networking and Professional Associations

Dr. Lewis highlights the significance of networking within the academic community and tapping into funding opportunities through professional associations. By actively engaging with professional networks and associations, graduate students can gain access to valuable funding resources and opportunities for financial support.

Balancing Work, Internships, and Studies

Balancing work, internships, and studies is a crucial aspect of managing the financial demands of graduate education. Dr. Lewis emphasizes the importance of time management and making choices based on individual circumstances. Whether it's securing a graduate assistantship or pursuing internships, finding the right balance is key to a successful financial strategy.

Understanding Student Loans and Financial Aid

Navigating the landscape of student loans and financial aid can be complex, and Dr. Lewis provides clarity on the distinctions between subsidized and unsubsidized loans. He also underscores the availability of financial aid for both domestic and international students, with particular emphasis on achievement-based and need-based aid.

Exploring External Scholarships and Search Engines

To expand their financial options, Dr. Lewis encourages students to explore external scholarships available through various scholarship search engines. By setting up a profile and actively engaging with these platforms, students can discover scholarships that align with their academic and personal profiles.

Utilizing Tax Credits and Employer Benefits

In addition to traditional financial aid avenues, Dr. Lewis discusses the potential benefits of tax credits for graduate students and encourages seeking advice from tax professionals. He also underscores the importance of inquiring about employer educational benefits, such as tuition reimbursement or remission, as part of a comprehensive financial strategy.

As students embark on their graduate education journey, securing financial support is a critical aspect of their overall success. By leveraging scholarships, assistantships, student loans, and external funding opportunities, students can navigate the financial landscape of graduate school with confidence. Dr. Christopher Lewis's insights offer an invaluable roadmap for graduate students seeking to fund their educational pursuits.

In this comprehensive guide, we've explored the various avenues for securing financial support for graduate studies. From scholarships to assistantships, student loans to tax credits, these insights pave the way for a successful financial strategy in the pursuit of advanced education.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:
Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]:
Okay, everyone. Thanks so much for being here today. My name is doctor Christopher Lewis. I'm the director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. And I'm really excited that you are here today to learn about how do you Pay for this. How do you fund graduate education? Sometimes one of the biggest stumbling blocks for people as they're thinking about going to graduate school is that price tag in trying to figure out for themselves, how do I actually pay for this and be able to get through this and not come out with with tons of debt? And and today, we're gonna be talking about some different things that you may be able to do to be able to take a look at different options, different opportunities that may be available that might be able to help you along the way. I am really excited that you're here today, and thank you for those of you that have been, introducing yourself in the chat. Feel free to keep doing that, and we may have some additional people that are joining us along the way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:10]:
But, but I feel free also if you have questions along the way, throw them in the chat. There's gonna be time at the end when we can When I can answer some further questions for you as well, but feel free to use that chat as a way to be able to to be able to ask your questions too. So, again, thank you so much for being here. Let's jump in. So we're what we're gonna be covering today, as I said, graduate school can be expensive. It can be something that that you definitely have to plan for and make sure that you are ready for as you're preparing, for that time that you will be in graduate school, whether it's 2 years, 3 years, or beyond, depending on the degree that you're looking at, we're We're gonna be talking about some different types of financial support that are available for graduate students. We're gonna also talk about how do you find support, how what kind of support It's out there. How do you find it? Where do you go to find that type of information? Are there tips? Are there strategies? Are there things that you can do to be able to Fund that degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:13]:
We'll be talk talking about that. And then overarching financing your degree, making sure that you make good financial decisions as you're going through graduate school as well. So let's jump right in. 1st and foremost, so as we are talking about Support through graduate school, one of the biggest amounts of support that is available for graduate students, Our scholarships and or fellowships. And as you look at different opportunities, and sometimes they're called assistantships as well. We'll Talk about those as well. There's a number of different ones, and I'm just gonna I'm gonna put a couple up here, and I'm gonna talk through them. So first and foremost, the FAFSA.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:56]:
If you are a domestic student inside the United States, as a domestic student, I encourage every graduate student to fill out the FAFSA. Even if you think you're not going to get any type of aid, fill it out. It's just like you probably did during your undergraduate days, but You will fill that out and that at times will make you eligible for some scholarships that are available on campus. Having that, you can always say no to any aid that is offered to you through that federal application. But you but if you don't have it and there are scholarships that are based off of FAFSA information, you would not be eligible And you would not be considered for those scholarships. So I always encourage you that if you are a domestic student, that going and being going and Filling out the FAFSA form early before you're planning to start submitting that to the institutions that you're planning to or you're thinking of attending And then looking at what the financial aid package that is sent back from the institution is is an important thing and definitely will help you to move forward. 2nd, individual scholarships individual scholarships at the schools themselves. One of the things that that every school has is individual scholarships.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:25]:
Some are donor based, some are school based, some are college based. You know, they are different across the board. We have specific scholarships here at the University of Michigan Flint that are Particular to specific programs or for graduates of University of Michigan Schools or if you're an international student, there's some scholarships that are available. And so you need to look at the individual you need to look at the individual school And the individual sites. Sometimes those scholarships are listed on the program page of your program. Sometimes you may find scholarship information on a overarching graduate school. So if the college that you're considering does have a graduate school you would want to take a look at. Is there financial aid information? Is there scholarship information that is there? They are going to be very clear about any scholarships that are available, especially if there are additional steps that you have to take To be able to be considered for scholarships.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:31]:
So for example, we have some scholarships here that are run through our Financial aid office. Many of them are are donor based or or if or scholarships that have been set up by specific individuals. And to be considered for those, there's a specific application that you have to fill out, and you have to apply by a certain date. And if you don't if you don't apply by those dates, you're not going to be considered for those specific scholarships. So you have to be very Careful and very clear about what are the scholarships, what how do you apply for them, what are the deadlines, and keeping track of those. I encourage you, and if you've listened to any of my past presentations before that I've given, when I talk about looking at different graduate schools, I talk about setting up that Google Sheet for yourself that allows for you to be able to set the program side by side and looking at All of the different cat all the different factors that are important to you. Now why is that important? Well, it's important because you wanna be able to look at each program Apples to apples, meaning that you want to make sure that each program is set side by side next to one another with the same criteria so you can review them. And I would encourage you to put information onto that spreadsheet for yourself that also Puts in the information about scholarships.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:01]:
So, again, then you have the dates there, you have the process, and you know what you have to do. You know, applying to graduate school is something that you have to be very you have to be very cognizant about in regards to being on On time, on track, and preparing yourself well to be able to, know exactly what you need to be doing in doing it at that right time. So so keep that in mind, keep track of that, and stay on top of it. So The third one here when you're talking about scholarships, fellowships is sometimes if you are working for an employer, Especially if you're inside the United States, many employers these days do offer some type of educational benefit. It might be a tuition Reimbursement, a tuition, a a tuition reimbursement, a tuition remission, a Scholarship. You know, there's lots of different opportunities that are out there and lots of different scholarships or educational benefits that Employers do offer. Not every employer offers that, but sometimes they are not very good at Telling their employees that they have those type of benefits. So asking your HR department, asking your employer, whoever it may be, On whether or not there is any type of educational benefits, especially if what you're planning to study is something that you are that will help you in the role that you're in or within the career trajectory that you're on within that company.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:38]:
All of that will help and will only prepare will will show them the commitment that you have to the company itself. So look into that. If it is a tuition reimbursement, basically, what that means would be is they may say, we will reimburse you up to 3 credit hours or 6 credit hours. So that would mean you'd have to pay up front and then put in the bill to the company prob and they may Say that you have to show your grade to show that you passed it, and then that that you get reimbursed after the fact. So those are some things to think about, in regards to to those. Now there are external scholarships as well, And external scholarships can are outside of the institution that you're thinking about. There's lots of different scholarship engines that are out there. I've listed a few here, Fastweb, CapEx, iGrad, Unigo, GoGrad.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:31]:
There's a lot of different search engines, scholarship search engines that are out there, And you'll hear every once in a while company or these companies saying this or you'll hear it in the news that there's all this scholarship money that goes unaccounted for. And there's some truth truth to that. Now realize though that on these type of On these type of, search engines, you're going to be setting up a profile for yourself. They're gonna ask you lots of questions about yourself, and they're gonna try to match Different scholarships that might be a good fit for you. It does take time, and it does take effort. Some scholarships I'm gonna put in quotes are ones that you might have to write lengthy essays about or do some other pieces To be in competition with other students. But there are scholarships that are out there. So if you have the time, you're willing to put in the time, Going to these external places, putting your information in, and seeing what pops up is always a good thing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:34]:
And once you're in the system, Usually, those systems will email you if there are additional scholarships that pop up as you move further toward your educational goal. So those are some things to think about as you think of scholarships and fellowships. Now I mentioned assistantships or there's teaching assistantships, there's research assistantships, and sometimes you'll just see Assistantships that are out there, typically, what that means is you are going to be brought in. These are Jobs, their positions that you are doing something for your for, for the university, for the professor for a professor, for And in for the for a unit of the institution, you're gonna be working, and they're going to be paying you to work. Now At every institution, the rules with that are a little bit different. At our institution, we have most of our pro most of our graduate students are eligible for Research assistantships. What that basically means is that you would apply. We have a on the link that you see here, on that link, There is a listing of any research assistantships that we have.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:50]:
They're called GSRA's, graduate student research assistantships, And you apply just like you would any job. But as you're looking through them, you're gonna see the faculty member, the research area, what they're looking for, And you would apply based on ones that you feel that you're qualified for. And then the faculty member will determine, Just like in a regular job, who they feel is the best fit, and they'll have you come on and do research with them. Now teaching assistantships, those are different. Usually, with those, you're going to be many times, Teaching assistants are going to be in PhD programs, and they're going to be working alongside of a faculty member, usually Teaching alongside a faculty member, or they may be teaching some undergrad courses. And as a part of their Time in that graduate program, they may have their tuition waived or they may get paid. You know, like I said, every institution is just a little bit different in that regard. And as so so as you look at that, and then there are assistantships.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:59]:
I know personally, when I went through my master's degree, I was in a program that required assistantships because I was in a College student personnel administration program. So I was working in higher education. So I worked for the office of admissions as a graduate assistant, And my tuition was taken care of, and I was paid at for the work that I was doing. So Every institution is just a little bit different. What they offer is a little bit different. Depending on your program, depending on the the the Requirements of the program, you have to look at all of those different factors because all of those will impact how you can pay for your graduate school. So I already talked about this, but a graduate assistantship is a salaried student employment opportunity. And then I already talked about that as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:56]:
So let's move on. So as we look at other types of financial support that are out there, There are grants, sometimes research funding. So as you as you look at the different opportunities, different schools, different programs, You're gonna find that there are grants, which is free money, money that is offered to you from the institution that you do not have to pay back, and there at times could be research funding. Some units will have Research grants that are happening, and they have money to hire students to be able to do research. Those could be through a GSRA type position, or they could be something else at that institution. But, again, each Individual program is going to be a little bit different, but you do need to look into that, and you need to ask these questions As you are going through this process. So if you don't see the information, ask the question. Say, are there scholarships? Where can I find out information about scholarships or assistantships? Is there research opportunities available? Will those research opportunities be paid or not? These are all good questions and ones that you should be asking As you're going through the process of identifying the school, but also as you're trying to whittle down what the True Price is going to be for you if you do attend a specific school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:31]:
So Student loans and financial aid. I already talked about the FAFSA form, so I will, I will talk a little bit about that. But a couple things that you wanna definitely keep in mind is that there are loans that are available for domestic, for international students. Individual institutions may have loans available for international students, some may not. Some, some international students are able to access international loans through outside vendors, but it depends on if the institution those vendors as well. So those are all things you have to be be thinking about. And domestic students, definitely, You want to put in your FAFSA. If you want student loans from the federal government, you have to fill out the FAFSA form.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:22]:
So those pieces are definitely important. The biggest thing that you definitely want to make sure that you understand is your loan limits, especially if you are a domestic Students, as if you took out large amount of loans in your undergrad and you're now looking at taking out Large amounts alone for your grad, there are loan limits that apply. And I have a link here, and I'm gonna share this this presentation With you so that you have it and you'll have these links. But it is important to understand what those limits are because you don't want to hit that cap and then not be able to, cover the cost that you have coming before you. So as we're talking about loan limits, you're looking at a 138,500 for domestic graduate or professional students. No more than 65,500 of the of that can be subsidized loans. The benefit of subsidized versus unsubsidized. Subsidized have have a better they're being subsidized by the federal government, so that means that the amount that the Usually, the interest rate on those loans is gonna be much less, because they're being subsidized.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:38]:
So, and then that graduate aggregate limit includes all federal loans received for your undergraduate study as well. So you need to keep all of that in mind because too often students are are they're coming up on that limit for the federal loan limit, And then they're having to look outside for other loans, and you just want to make sure you have a plan to be able to to be able to Cover everything and be able to then afterwards be on a plan for repayment to be able to get through your graduate study. Okay. So let's talk a little bit about, again, how financial aid works. So financial aid is split up in between 2 different categories based on the reason the money is awarded. So it's important to understand that. So you have achievement based aid. So the that aid that's typically awarded based on merit, your skill, talent, ability, and and It may be grades, you know, etcetera.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:42]:
Whereas you have then need based aid that is provided the students who demonstrate in some way some type of financial need, whether that's through the FAFSA form or some other type of, way that the institution is determining or looking at financial need. So you have merit achievement based or merit based, And you have need based aid. Now financial aid programs do provide support Or I do provide support for students to help them meet the cost of obtaining their education, But you have to also realize that funding for the programs are provided by the federals federal and state governments, but and but also There is some funding that comes from colleges or universities that they've set up specifically, like I talked about, in regard to university based Scholarships in that regard. Okay. So, I kind of already mentioned some of these already. I'm just kind of remaking sure that you that I hit these points home, that there are different types of scholarships that are available. Like at our institution, we have a whole list of those scholarships that you can apply for and that you can be considered for. Now it's a long list, and it will take you quite some time to go through and look at the criteria and be able to tell.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:09]:
You don't have To go through, you don't have to specifically apply for specific scholarships, but there is a process at our institution at least that you apply by a certain date to be for any of those scholarships that are that you're eligible for as a graduate student. You can also go through and see the different scholarships, see how many Scholarships are out there. Look for specific criteria. See if there's scholarships for those criteria as well. So In that list in the top link there, there are specialized scholarships that are based on your academic area, Demographics of yourself, because individuals or companies or, Or units on campus have developed these scholarships specifically for specific groups of individuals. And it might be You're just a grad student, but it could also be you're a student going into physical therapy or a student going into computer science, And you decide that you are going to, that you are going to, Make sure that you are, are eligible for those different types of scholarships too. Definitely reach out to the financial aid office if you've got any Questions along the way. If you are are a little bit lost in trying to figure that out for yourself, I highly, highly encourage you to, I highly, highly encourage you to, to reach out to your financial aid office.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:38]:
They are more than willing to Talk with you, to work with you, to help you, to understand the process, and understand what type of what type of financial opportunities may exist for you as a student as well. So let's walk through these different opportunities, different ways, and Strategies for funding your graduate education. So 1st and foremost, you want to think about the, I talked about external scholarships. So there's the scholar those scholarship search engines. Take the time prior to applying, prior to even going out there. Look and see what kind of scholarships are out there, and especially once you've determined what type of program you want to go into and you know a little bit more on that regard. Build some relationships. Make sure that you're networking, that you're building relationships within the academic community in the area that you have an interest in.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:32]:
By doing that, You may be able to tie to tap into other things. Sometimes professional associations will have specific scholarships. And as a student, you could join as a student member and potentially have access to that. Sometimes those scholarships are going to be for individuals only once they're in a program. But, again, even as a Post 1st year student, you could take advantage of funding opportunities through those professional associations or other Entities that are offering scholarships out there for people going into the field that you have an interest in. So making sure that you do look at that is also going to be important. You're going to want to look at how are you going to be balancing your work, your internships, your studies, because as you're going through your graduate education, there's going to be a lot thrown at you. And if you are going to also have an assistantship, you you just have to figure out that balance for yourself to figure out, okay.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:40]:
Yes. I need the funding. I'm going to take that assistantship that was offered to me. That's 20 hours a week. Well, if I spend 20 hours a week here, How am I going to get my studying done for my classes? How long is that going to take? Do I have other Opportunities to get involved in other things along that, among or with that or not. Those are all questions that you need to be asking, and you need to really create kind of a a time management or a a kind of a sheet for yourself of the week To be able to know what you know, how you're going to be able to fit everything in because because that sometimes there's students that will decide, I'm not gonna take that Assistantship. Yes. It was gonna help me, but I just can't balance it with my family, or I can't balance it with this other thing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:28]:
And or Or they they make other decisions based on those those same type of internal dialogues, but also external dialogues with others. You want to make sure that you have a budget and that you're managing your finances well. Too often, we see students that are maxing out on loans if they if loans are available, they're and And because they're they're available to them, and the problem with that is that then At the end, you come out with a vast amount of debt that becomes hard to pay off in the end. Now if that's the case, you know, if as you're going along, you wanna make sure you're making good decisions. So Budget your money. So if you are taking loans out, if you're if you're getting paid for an from an assistantship, just like you would budget within your own life And and looking at the you know, what is what are you paying out? What is coming in? And How can you budget that the best that you can to spend as little as you can to be able to get through everything And not come out with a large amount of debt. So being able to budget throughout, we, here at the University of Michigan Flint, We we've worked with different agencies that that provide different opportunities for students to be able to, to get some really good insight into budgeting, into preparing, making sure that you're not maxing out a credit card on top of that. You know, putting things on, you know, taking out other loans, you know, doing doing things to try and pay down other things as you can, even if it's incremental, so you're paying down as you go along.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:24]:
All of those things are things that you can do that will make big impacts in the future. K. So as you are, as you're thinking about grants and scholarships, many times oh, hold on. Many times when you're going through grants and scholarships, there's going to be opportunities for you to be able to do some writing. And as you're going through these types of, these types of scholarship applications or grant applications, You want to be able to make sure that you are are are taking the time to craft A good narrative that will help to tell your story. And and you don't wanna do this you don't wanna wait till the last minute. You want to take the time to be able to proofread, have others proofread, and really think about your answers And come up with a very solid answer. Sometimes you have a a a large number of words to use.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:33]:
Sometimes it's a very short amount of words, so you have to be very succinct in in what you're saying. So couple these are a couple of different writing tips, some things to think about as you're thinking about Graduate school and, grants and scholarships for graduate school. So as you're answering these questions, You wanna develop a format on whatever prompt is offered to you to be able to allow for you to organize your thoughts. It might be an outline, you know, where your bullet pointing the different things you want to hit. But, again, this is a narrative. This is you telling a story, And you want to make sure that it flows well because when someone reads it, you want them to follow the narrative And follow the story from beginning to end, and you wanna lead them along from beginning to end. You wanna make it your own? Don't use the, you know, cliche, cliche or boilerplate language. Use your own Experiences your own language.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:38]:
Please don't use chat gpt to try to write it Because, you know, they wanna see your personality, and they want to understand who you are. So by even using AI, that's not going to help in in bringing out your own personality. If they are asking specific questions or they specifically say they want to hear the following things, Make sure that you address all the questions. Make sure that you're answering the prompt. You don't wanna copy and paste an answer from a previous application that doesn't answer it. So that's why I say take the time. Even if you think you could tweak something that you've used before, Really read that question again. Have someone else read the question and have them read your answer too because you wanna make sure that you're answering the question fully.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:35]:
Proofread. Proofread. Proofread. Proofread. I'm gonna say that many as many times as I can because and and I always, when I'm proofreading, I'll write it. I'll have someone else read it. But then I also read it out loud because many times when you read something out loud, You will catch things that you didn't catch the 1st time. So that's also important and and definitely something that People can get not selected for scholarships or for grants because of their writing Or because of, not answering all the questions, you know, so paying attention to detail and making sure that you're being You're being consistent in that regard.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:21]:
So, again, take your time. Give yourself at least a week to work on a personal statement. So that's not e so that that's a personal statement for applying to to college, but also personal statements or answers to questions for these types of scholarships and grants as well. So let's talk a little bit about aid and how it's determined. So, typically, when we're talking about the cost of attendance at a school, what that Includes is your estimated family contribution or your EFC. And the federal government here in the United States just changed EFC, but I still use it because I think it I think it makes a little more sense. But EFC estimated family contribution. So what Typically, you are going to be able to you and your family are going to be able to put toward your education.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:16]:
Many of you are beyond the age of, of when your parents would consider you on their taxes, Especially if you're domestic. So if that's the case, then the estimate the expected family contribution really becomes what you can contribute. And then it's gonna look at scholarships or other resources, things that the institution is offering you or that, that they the institution has been has been told that that you have been awarded through other agencies. And then those 2 pieces combined will equal Your need of aid. So it might they may say, hey. This student needs $30,000 for the year. And if it and that would be the need for aid. So then they're going to the look at, okay, how can we package that, and offer something to a student.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:10]:
So the cost of attending, your budget, it it so what you see and I say on SIS, It's really your student information system. So we use a system called the SIS banner, but there are many different systems depending on the school that you attend. And the budget is based off of an estimate of the cost of attending Here at U of M Flint, and then it it may have different amounts based on Room and board, whether you're because there's gonna be questions of are you living on campus? Are you living on your own? Are you living with your parents? You know, those type of things, and they'll they'll adjust The overarching budget that they use to consider for each student and, and then dependent dependent students. Like I said, most most graduate students are not considered dependent students. But if you were considered a dependent student, they may be asked to provide a lease agreement if, to document that. Okay. So, how your aid is Also, how in how your aid is determined when you're talking about the estimated family contribution. This for for dependent students, if you are a dependent student, the The parent contribution is still a part of this.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:26]:
Otherwise, it's looking really at your contribution. It's gonna be looking at and if you're married, it would be the family contribution As a whole, or if it's just you, you know, they will look at your just your individual contribution and determine But your estimated family contribution could be when it comes to your finance the the the financial aid or the package that is provided. They also are going to be looking at scholarships. And we do encourage students to to look at scholarships and to Consider scholarships whether it's here at U of M Flint or other places, as, you know, because and then also One of the questions on the financial aid form is whether or not you are willing to, be considered for work study. That's not as common with grad students, but sometimes there may be some work study available. So if you are a domestic student and you fill out the FAFSA form, make sure that you click yes. It doesn't mean you have to take it, but if you click yes, then it makes you eligible for work study. The Benefit of work study is that you would get paid like any other student for the position that you're in, But it's a it's it's allows for some federal money to be used toward paying you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:49]:
And it then allows for more students to be able to work on campus because you they are taking a portion of the burden off of the institution to pay, And instead, it's a joint effort between the federal government and the the institution to pay you as a work study student. There's some great cost calculators that are out there that will help you to calculate your own estimated family contribution, that I would encourage you to take a look at. These are 5 different ones that are out there. There's a number of other resources that are available for students when they are, when they are, That, you know, based on whatever your your personal needs are, on our financial aid page at the University of Michigan Flint, we do offer quite a few different resources that I encourage you to check out as well. So As we're as we're looking at, aid and thinking about aid, typically, at your institution and I'm gonna give you information about Our school, but at most institutions, you're going to need to be able to show that you have a minimum of 4 credits that are counting toward your degree to be eligible for loans, and and that includes Grad PLUS loans. Now When we look at this for aid, you could see there's a difference between undergrad and graduate students. So for full time graduate students, it's over 8 credits, whereas at for an undergrad, it's 12 credits. So the expectation is different.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:34]:
And we say that you need at least 4 credits, which is half time To be considered as aid eligible. So if you are looking at a graduate program where you're going to be going part time, You'd be looking at anywhere from 4 to 7 credits that you'd be taking, which would make you aid eligible for most, for most scholarships that have that criteria in place. So it's important to understand that as well. Other thing, that I wanted to point out here is that, especially for domestic students as you're thinking about, about different types of Loans, and scholarships, but also the cost of college that as a graduate student, you may be eligible For either the lifetime learning credit or the tuition and fees deduction on your taxes. So You have to kind of talk to your tax person about that, because if you do have any taxable income from Scholarships or fellowships, and you receive some type of a stipend that may end up, getting getting having to get placed on your taxes. So when you're looking at these 2 things, couple things to keep in mind, lifetime learning credit refunds 20% of up to $10,000 of qualified expenses, providing, you with up to about $2,000, on your taxes. And then there's a tuition and fees deduction, which allows you to deduct up to $4,000, but It depend you have to look at the definition of what higher education expenses are. So that typically is going to be Your books, supplies, other, well, not books and supplies.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:38:27]:
So it's it's typically your tuition, whereas books, Supplies, other equipments are not usually deductible. So room but room and board, in room and board, insurance, medical Medical expenses, personal expenses are also not usually qualified expenses. So usually it's gonna be your tuition for the most part. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time today. Thanks for being here, and wish you all the best. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if You are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:39:05]:
For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflute.eduforward/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, Email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

Graduate school can be a transformative journey, filled with challenges and opportunities for growth. In this blog post, we delve into the experiences and insights of Rehan Kodil, a Master of Business Administration (MBA) student specializing in Organizational Leadership at the University of Michigan Flint. Through Rehan's journey, we'll explore the reasons for pursuing graduate education, the choice of concentration, adapting to the demands of graduate school, and valuable tips for success.   Choosing Graduate School After completing his undergraduate degree in 2013, Rehan gained work experience at Morgan Stanley, fostering a desire for further education. However, the decision to pursue graduate school was delayed due to personal and professional commitments. It wasn't until 2021, during the challenges of the pandemic, that Rehan committed to his educational aspirations, particularly drawn to the business program at the University of Michigan Flint. Rehan's determination to advance his career and personal growth serves as a testament to the importance of recognizing the right timing and aligning one's passions with further education.   Choosing a Concentration Rehan's decision to specialize in organizational leadership was influenced by his professional experiences. His realization that his interests lay with human resources and leadership, as opposed to his previous stint in finance at Morgan Stanley, sheds light on the significance of self-awareness and aligning educational pursuits with one's strengths and passions. This exemplifies the value of choosing a concentration that resonates with personal aspirations and professional goals.   Adapting to Graduate School Transitioning to graduate school after years in the workforce can be daunting. Rehan encountered challenges in adapting to a new learning environment, but found support from faculty, academic advisors, and peers. His journey showcases the importance of resilience, adjusting study habits, and embracing the guidance and resources provided by the academic community.   Involvement in Campus Life Rehan's involvement in student government underscores the value of engaging in campus activities beyond academic pursuits. This involvement exposed him to real-world scenarios, honing his negotiation, communication, and leadership skills. By stepping out of his comfort zone, he was able to apply these experiences to his studies, enhancing his overall educational journey.   Preparing for the Future In addition to academic knowledge, Rehan underscores the importance of developing practical skills that will differentiate him in his career journey. Through projects, case studies, and real-world applications, Rehan cites the development of communication, negotiation, and problem-solving skills as crucial takeaways from his program. These skills are instrumental in preparing for the challenges and opportunities that lie ahead in his professional life.   Tips for Success Based on his experiences, Rehan offers valuable tips for those considering or currently in graduate school. These include the importance of self-awareness in choosing a field of study, maintaining a work-life balance, establishing connections with mentors and academic advisors, and proactive engagement with career development resources. Rehan's tips offer actionable insights for navigating the demands of a graduate program while maximizing learning and networking opportunities.   Conclusion Rehan's journey through graduate school provides a firsthand account of the challenges and triumphs that many students encounter. His insights underscore the value of determination, adaptability, and the pursuit of personal and professional growth. Through his experiences, Rehan's tips serve as a guiding light for prospective and current graduate students, navigating the path to success in their educational and professional endeavors.   In conclusion, Rehan's journey through graduate school provides a firsthand account of the challenges and triumphs that many students encounter. His insights underscore the value of determination, adaptability, and the pursuit of personal and professional growth. Through his experiences, Rehan's tips serve as a guiding light for prospective and current graduate students, navigating the path to success in their educational and professional endeavors.  

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:
Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]:
Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Jennifer Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you, to be able to walk with you along this path that you're on because I know that You are on a journey. You're on a journey. You're whether you're at the very beginning and you're just starting to think about graduate school or You're a little bit further down the road. Maybe you've applied and you're waiting to hear back if whether you got accepted or you're in a graduate program And you're working through and you're taking your classes and maybe that light at the end of the tunnel is getting a little bit closer. But I love being able to be on this journey with you talk to you to help you to think about the things that are going to help you to find success Sooner.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:03]:
That's what this podcast is all about. It's all about helping you to find success in this graduate school journey no matter What type of graduate school journey you're on? We talk to students that are in business programs, law school, med school. We've talked to people that are studying computer science or are working in the field in many different areas, their PhDs or their PTs. Lots of different people with lots of different journeys, but the common thread is that all of them have gone before you or are going through it at the same time with you and are here to help you along that path. Today, we've got another great guest with us. Rehan Codill is with us, and Rehan is a master of business administration student studying organizational leadership at the University of Michigan Flint. I'm really excited to have him here for him to share his journey with you and to have him on the show. Rehan, thanks so much for being here.

Rehan Kodil [00:02:03]:
Thank you, It's my pleasure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:05]:
It's my pleasure having you here today too. Thank you for being here. One of the first things that I always love to do is be able to Turn the clock back in time because I think it's always important to understand where you were and where you are now. So somewhere along the journey, You you did your undergraduate work, and somewhere along the journey, you made a decision that you wanted to go to graduate school. What were the reasons that Made you choose that you wanted to go to graduate school.

Rehan Kodil [00:02:30]:
So I completed my undergrad in, like, back in 2013. And right after that, I started from Morgan Stanley because I wanted to get some experience before doing my postgrad. And the plan has been there, on my mind since a long time. But I think once you start working, you know, you get into the rhythm of that, and then you don't wanna come back to study. But I was like, no. I said to myself Okay. I've got enough experience, and the only regret that I have is that I should have done this much earlier when I was a bit more younger. But then what happened is school COVID happened, and the borders were shot.

Rehan Kodil [00:03:02]:
And so because of a lot of other personal things as credit card did it. But, In the year 2021, I made a decision that, you know, this year, I want to, like, really focus on this, And I applied to a lot of other universities. The University of Michigan is what attracted me the the business program that I'm currently in. I then And you even got in touch with a lot of, alum and a lot of current students who were there, in the graduate program. And all those things are are like what they said and then what I when When I did my own research, it it attracted to me. It was, and that's how I decided that I wanna do this course. And I think that, University of Michigan being a big brand, it, like, holds a lot of value, and there is and more than just academics also, there is, like, There are so many things to look forward to. Like, even we have our job opportunities, career fairs, and, so many people, like, get to help the students.

Rehan Kodil [00:03:56]:
So it's been, like, 2022, I came here, and I see a drastic change in myself. My approach was studying a subject like how it was many years back during my undergrad is different. The approach of the faculty, the The professors, teachers, all have been very helpful. And, also, like, the certain subject that I'm doing, the course also helps I'll definitely, like, enhance and develop my personality more because certain subjects we have that we have to negotiate, with people and get to know other people. So it makes We get out of my comfort zone. I am very happy that I chose this program and the major organization, leadership. So yep.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:35]:
So you're in a program that has many different concentration areas. You chose organizational leadership. Why did you choose organizational leadership versus Other concentrations? What was it about that concentration that made you say this is the right one for me?

Rehan Kodil [00:04:49]:
So I, as I said earlier, like, I I started up at Morgan Stanley in finance. And, what what I realized that I wasn't really enjoying finance. And but at the same time, I was Trying to discover, like, what I'm really good at, what I really enjoy, and that was, like, something to do with organization leadership, which is also known as, human resources. And, so of all the other considerations that I went to, I what what attracted me the most was, the MBA in organization leadership. When I when I went through the subjects and, the main concentration subject, I like besides the prerequisites and all that, and when I graduate, I I realized that, okay, this is something that I really enjoy. This is something that I wanna pursue and continue Other rather than, you know, doing it in finance or any other, concentration that I don't. So, you human, organization leadership is what attracted me because I see myself, as a future leader, in in an I believe that I have those, qualities as, as well. Not not just because of, the studies, and the subject that I'm learning, but also I I am part of student government also as a director.

Rehan Kodil [00:06:01]:
So I am already, like, Using, in it's in, like, beside not just in academy, but also in the practical experience that I have. So yep.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:11]:
Now I know that You have been able to find success in this graduate school journey. You've been able to move forward. You're continuing to move forward, working toward your graduation coming up In the near future, as you transitioned into graduate school And you think back to that right now, what did you have to do to find what did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And as you went through graduate school, what did you have to do to maintain your success throughout this entire graduate school journey?

Rehan Kodil [00:06:45]:
So one of the things was that I completely had to change my approach, towards studying. Like, how, like, Couple of years back, I I wasn't that serious. You know, like, during my undergrad and all. So and I never really get time to study. So That is something that I I changed my approach also, like and one other the the most difficult thing was that getting time to study after working, after working so much. But I had that fear, but once I started studying okay. Initially, the couple of weeks was difficult, but then once the professors And the faculty was so helpful, and that they made you feel, like, comfortable. Okay.

Rehan Kodil [00:07:22]:
You know what? Relax. It's you know, there are it's not just you. There are many others like you also coming to study after a long time. So what I would say that the transition was a bit difficult, but I saw the the faculty and The subjects also that I studied being so interesting and so many resources that help offered by the university, like for my leadership programs, also The academic adviser that I have was, like, more than an academic adviser, they were like a mentor, a friend. All those people, like, they helped me, and They made that transition, which and I really felt, but in in the early stage, which is natural world typical. They made it easy. So now it's like now when I look back, I'm like, I was really worried about that, so that's how it is now. I feel more confident now.

Rehan Kodil [00:08:04]:
Of course. So, yes, the transition was difficult, but I didn't panic. I prepared myself I said that I'm here for this particular reason, and I should change my approach and my attitude. And I always dedicate, like, The weekends to my study, like because I don't work on weekend. And sometimes even, like, during the day, when I get done early with work, when I have nothing much to do, I always I make sure that I'm Spending some time, like, on my own study, whether it's completing an assignment or doing some research or just learning more about the stuff.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:33]:
Now I know that you've also gotten very involved on campus, getting involved with student life and student government, and not every graduate student chooses to do that. What What have you found in getting involved in this way? How has that helped you to be able to find success in the studies And in the program that you're in.

Rehan Kodil [00:08:56]:
That was something that I really thought about that. There are no graduate students in this, that. Will I be able to, like, manage so many things over? Because sometimes it can be too much, and it and sometimes it does feel like that also, like previously. But I thought that, You know, just coming here for academics and not getting to know your peers, your colleagues, or the other People important people like yourself that are there in the university, the senior people also. So that is why I said that it is important to join, like, such an organization like student government, where you you make your connections also and get to know people and get to know, like, what is happening at the in the university and how is it helping in my studies. So, like, for example, I can I I'll give you an example? We have many meetings and brainstorming sessions with our colleagues in school and government. Sometimes there may there may be an argument that you have to disconnect me or to someone else. So it is teaching you a lot, And it is preparing you also for the real world in a way.

Rehan Kodil [00:09:52]:
Like, okay. This may be a scenario when you go into the real world tomorrow. So how are you gonna deal with it? And how I applied this into my studies is, like, for example, I have a subject called negotiation, where we have to negotiate with another person. It was part of our exercise. And for me, that went very well because I'm used to these negotiations and all in the work that I do in student government, whether it is to something over there. It is definitely just listening to someone else's idea or proposal. So what what it taught me, it has been with so many people. It taught me, like, how to deal with How to deal with things and not be, you know, just getting angry or it taught me, like, how to be more calmer and be a good listener.

Rehan Kodil [00:10:30]:
So that's one of the things that I learned there government that I use that I use in the in my academics, like, in that certain subject, that is negotiation management. So that is how it has helped me. And Other than that, I always make sure that I find time to balance everything. If I feel that, okay, that something is getting too much, I always Reach out to my colleagues in school government and say that, hey. My I have my academic skills. I need to focus on that. I won't be able to attend this meeting, That meeting, I will be able to do this project. And I say it in advance, not like last moment.

Rehan Kodil [00:11:00]:
They have been pretty good. You know? They they understand that nobody forces anyone do any tool. But that being said, I also believe that when you're part of this organization and I know that everyone has different personalities, but I feel that It is important for you to, like, get out of your comfort zone and join any organization. It doesn't have to be student government, but do something, like for The campus do something, like, for your other colleagues, maybe, like, other internationals who are coming and who may need help or who may not have that personality that you have. So, you you can become an inspiration for them. Like, okay. Hey. Listen.

Rehan Kodil [00:11:32]:
You can study, and you can do these things as well as long as you're able to balance out

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:38]:
Now you're getting closer to the end of your program. And along with what you're learning inside of the class, you're also learning other Skills are the things that are going to help you to prepare you for the next step in your career. Talk to me about that, and what have you found that the program has helped you to do that is going to help you stand apart from others as you're looking at your next step in your career.

Rehan Kodil [00:12:03]:
I think the very fact that this Program is, like, is teaching us and is giving us a a lot of practical experience. Like, for example, it is not just, okay, come do your assignments. Just submitted. Give you an example of what this program is making me do is it is making me getting out of my comfort zone. We have projects and all Case studies and all that we have to work with. Sometimes it can be, like, a bit difficult. It can be challenging because we might not like everybody certain people might not cooperate, but that is the very thing of this. That is it's teaching you to get along with who are tough, who are very difficult to negotiate You have to, like, find strike.

Rehan Kodil [00:12:37]:
You have to, like, sit down, negotiate with them, and find a way out. So and I have projects in many of the subjects that, I have done so far. And now even in this winter semester, I have and I look forward to all of them. Some in the past have been challenging, but I confidently, like, with the help of the others, we overcame that. So the skills that it is giving me before I head out Outside like, the real world is that it's giving me, of course, communication skills, negotiation skills also. Like, it is teaching me how to be patient rather than, you know, being a hothead and just Losing my school is teaching me how to be patient, how to be more to be able to become a good listener and observer, come to a solution in a Am I capable here rather than, like, fighting or doing something, like, that you shouldn't be doing. And besides that, like, also, it has given me a lot of confidence, Which I particularly didn't have in the past because in my undergrad, we didn't have, like, such such classes that I'm having now. It was just, like, If you are exams, let's go do a project.

Rehan Kodil [00:13:33]:
Not much research at all. So what this has made me do is, of course, it was challenging, and it is challenging, but There are a lot of positives. It is preparing me for it is making me better, boosting my confidence, making me communicate with people even though, like, It is even though it has been difficult, it's because I'm a shy person. So it is helping me become I think it'll bring my confidence making me get out of my comfort zone. So they're making me improve my communication skills because it is a mandate of this program that you have to, do projects and all case studies and all those things. So it it has it it has helped helped me a lot. And I think what will make me standout is the the very fact that the the skills that I learned, whether it be a communication skill or, how to approach a certain situation, Like, without so to have a debate, but in a peaceful way, not like create a scene or something just to be more patient. And also the fact that It has increased my knowledge in a lot of other subjects that I previously didn't know even from the ones that I have studied before because There are so many new things, so many additional new things.

Rehan Kodil [00:14:41]:
Some things that were taught back then in my undergrad are different from how it is here, a a different approach, The approach of my colleagues, the other students, the approach of the professors. So all those things, I take it as a learn besides just getting us a degree and a certificate. So I think all those I consider key takeaways that will make me stand out with this degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:01]:
Now as you consider the end of your graduate degree And as it's education that you have been having thus far, and you think about other students that are thinking about graduate school in general, What are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate school and graduate education that'll help them to find success?

Rehan Kodil [00:15:19]:
I think, tips that I would offer is That one is that decide what you really want to do, what you like, respective of and if you're probably you're passionate about it or not. And it could be something that you developed something recently. It is not that, okay, you might have worked in a different stream or a different industry, but you want to change it. It is I think it is fine as long as You know what it is that is that you like. So 1 the first thing the tip would be that decide, like, this is the stream that you want to get into, the the major. And as I said, like, if you are someone who is coming to grad school, like, after a long time, which could be challenging, like, after a gap or something, it will be challenging. But if you decide to, like, interest and put your mind to it. And initially, of course, there will be those difficult periods.

Rehan Kodil [00:16:04]:
But once you're in the flow and once you start attending those classes and you start meeting your academic adviser, talking to your professors regularly, and, like, with their colleagues that out there, it will help you. So I think one of the tips that I would offer is that not just to be there because just to complete the program, but to also see get to know the the faculty, the academic advisor, everyone because all of them will help you in this program. They have those experiences also. And, so so my other tip would be that make sure that you're interacting with everyone, not just, you know, just there for studies. Yeah. I completed this at going home. You know? Make sure that you're keeping in touch with everyone, asking them questions. And besides that, it would be that if you're Someone who's working and during graduation that you just have to and studying, then you have to maintain a work life balance.

Rehan Kodil [00:16:56]:
And you have to, like, plan your schedule and things in such a way that one is that one is not like, you're not giving visits to more visits one thing and Not at all to another thing. You have to make sure that they are being balanced. So that means that you have to, like, have that okay. These these these days I'm going to be but I have work, so I won't be able, I won't be able to focus that much on my studies, but dedicate, like, few days. Like, if you're off on the weekends, make sure that Saturday, Sunday, At least, like, for 3, 4 hours, you are dedicating it to your academy. And if at all if it's an emergency, like, let's say that there's an exam coming up, and then You make sure that you take those leads in advance for those days so that you can prepare for those exams. So my other tip would be that maintain a work life balance so that it will eventually help. And the other tip is that not to stress too much or overtake.

Rehan Kodil [00:17:46]:
And And I'm saying this because this has really helped me is to always meet your academic adviser at least once every time. It can be in person or in Zoom. I can tell you this from my personal experience that had it not been for my, academic adviser who has been so helpful to me, I would be lost, to be honest. I don't think I would be so confident, and, yeah, I would either be because they guide you. Of course, you have to do all the hard work, but they guide you. They tell you that, okay, you're not headed in the right direction, All are doing very well. So I always make sure that I am in touch with my academic advisor, whether it's for registration, whether it is something that is bothering me about a certain subject or the course, Anything. They're always there to help you too.

Rehan Kodil [00:18:25]:
That is one important thing that I like is that during this course, like in your graduate school, make sure that you are in touch with your academic adviser. And the other one would be to get in touch. Like, we have mentoring programs as well. So if you don't like, if someone is not comfortable, like, doing it formally, they can Also, like, reach out to the former alumni, like, who who are there on LinkedIn or if they can, like, get in touch with someone, like, at At the university, we will tell them, okay. Now this person has studied this. Get in touch with those people. Like, ask them how was their experience. What are the challenges that they face? How did they overcome that? What did they do differently? That will also help you to make a certain decision on how to approach a certain thing.

Rehan Kodil [00:19:05]:
And And, they can also guide you. So I I believe that it is always important to have, have that kind of a mentor as well. And the other thing would be, which is something that I recently I'm doing a lot is, like, I think every program has their own career development manager, and We have, like, school of management as Justin's. So, also, like, when you are studying and you you it is better to, like, think about your future as well, like, where you see yourself going with the degree. And what I think is that you have to start planning it right now. So, like, let's say even if your course is 3 years more to go, 2 years more to go, it's better to meet with this career development manager. In my case, it's Justin Skibit. But for everyone else, it would be different.

Rehan Kodil [00:19:49]:
They will help you tell them that this is what you're looking for. This is what you want to get into. He has helped me a lot. So I'm telling you this from experience With, like, interview skills, getting out to putting in a kind word, getting out to the recruiters. So when you're about to graduate, You are ready, like, for the world. You already have a job or maybe you have many offers. You already have the skills that that you got from the, from your Academic program. You have the connections also.

Rehan Kodil [00:20:14]:
So, basically, you have all the weapons that you need before you before you head out. So that is another thing that I would say. And one other thing that I would mention. Again, this also I know it's not possible for everyone because everybody some have families here, some have Multiple jobs, but at least if they can make sure to come on campus also, at least, like, for 1 lecture, that will also make a bit. I know that today we are in online. COVID happened and all those But just to come to class maybe just for 1 lecture, I think doesn't do any wrong because it is good to have a fact physical Your presence as well where your professors lie there. It is much more easier to communicate with them when they are light in front of you. Also get to know the others as well Besides just saying hello on Zoom, so and the best thing is that if you are in the building, you could even just walk up to the office and meet your academic adviser also for all you know.

Rehan Kodil [00:21:04]:
And you you can talk to them about it on any other important office that is that you want to go to. So that is another tip that, so this is Well,

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:12]:
Rehan, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. Thank you for sharing all these tips and things that you have found to help you To help others along their own journey, and I wish you all the best.

Rehan Kodil [00:21:22]:
Thank you, sir. It was my pleasure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:23]:
The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs If you are interested in continuing your education, whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflute.eduforward/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon As we embark together on your graduate school journey, if you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flint gradoffice@umflint.edu.

In a recent episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast, Dr. Dallas Anderson, a health scientist administrator at the National Institutes of Health, took listeners on a journey through his academic and professional experiences in epidemiological research, particularly focusing on Alzheimer's disease. From his upbringing in Flint, Michigan, to pursuing advanced degrees at the University of Michigan, Dr. Anderson shares valuable insights about the influence of mentoring, the significance of choosing the right path in graduate education, and his dedication to making impactful contributions in the field of public health.

The Impact of Mentoring

Dr. Anderson's story emphasizes the pivotal role of mentoring in shaping his academic and professional trajectory. Starting from his high school years, mentorship played a crucial part in his decision to pursue higher education, eventually leading him to embark on a journey in epidemiological research. His emphasis on the importance of finding a mentor resonates strongly with aspiring graduate students who may be navigating the complex landscape of advanced studies.

Choosing the Right Path in Graduate Studies

A standout point from Dr. Anderson's conversation is the significance of defining success based on personal fulfillment rather than external metrics. This philosophy underscores the idea that the journey through graduate education is as important as the destination. Aspiring graduate students are encouraged to reflect on their passions and interests to ensure they choose a specific direction for their studies, one that aligns with their personal and professional aspirations.

The Role of University Environment and Faculty Support

Dr. Anderson's positive experience at the University of Michigan Flint and the impact of the supportive faculty shed light on the vital role of academic environments in nurturing students' growth. The dedication of faculty members to student success, coupled with a personalized educational setting, is pivotal in enhancing the overall graduate experience and fostering a sense of community among students and mentors alike.

Focusing on Personal Fulfillment and Mentorship Opportunities

Dr. Anderson's extensive career in epidemiological research serves as a testament to the power of personal fulfillment and the profound impact of mentorship opportunities. Aspiring graduate students are encouraged to leverage these opportunities, define their own measures of success, and seek mentors who can guide and support their academic and professional development. The Impact of Dr. Anderson's Research in Alzheimer's Disease Dr. Anderson's dedication to researching Alzheimer's disease, particularly at a subclinical level and its connection to early life exposures, offers valuable insights into the complexities of neuroepidemiology. His work highlights the pressing need for comprehensive studies in this field and emphasizes the far-reaching implications of epidemiological research in public health.

Conclusion

Dr. Dallas Anderson's conversation on the "Victors in Grad School" podcast provides a wealth of valuable insights for aspiring graduate students, early-career researchers, and public health enthusiasts. From the significance of mentorship and personal fulfillment to the impact of his research in Alzheimer's disease, Dr. Anderson's journey serves as an inspiring example of navigating success in graduate education and making meaningful contributions to the field of epidemiological research.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:
Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]:
Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, Director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to sit down with you, to talk to you, to Help you along this journey that you're on as you look at graduate school for yourself. You might be at the very beginning just thinking about it, Trying to figure out if it's the right step for you. You might be in graduate school. Maybe you just started and you're you're just figuring things out as you go along. Or You could be in the middle or toward the end looking at that light at the end of the tunnel and getting ready for that next step in your career, in your life As you prepare for the next step.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:56]:
And that's what this show is all about. This show is all about helping you to find success in that journey that you are going on. So I'm really excited to be able to have you here today, to talk to you, to work with you as you go through that process. And Every week, I love being able to bring you different guests, different people that have gone before you, people that have gone to graduate school, have found success in many different ways, And are here to share that experience with you. Today, we got another great guest with us. Doctor Dallas Anderson is with us, and doctor Anderson is a health Scientist administrator that is working for the National Institutes of Health, doing epidemiological research on Alzheimer's. And we're gonna talk about some of that as well as learn more about his own experience. Dallas, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:01:47]:
My pleasure. Happy to be here, and thanks for inviting me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:50]:
It is my pleasure. Really excited that you were willing to join us today. Now you did your undergraduate work a few years back, and at that time, you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint. But at some point During that time in undergrad, you decided that you wanted to make that next step and you decided to To move on to get a master's in public health, talk to me about what was going through your head, what was going through your mind, what were some of those reasons that you chose that you wanted to continue and go to graduate school.

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:02:23]:
Well, I looked at the lifestyle of professors and people that have advanced education, and I kind of thought that that was for me. I actually have some health issues that were congenital. I was born with 1 kidney and had a heart condition. The heart condition was evaluated at the University of Michigan in hospital, and I grew up in by the way, I grew up in Flint. So my early years in preparing for college, all of that was all done in Flint And with the Flint Public School System, which at the time was really quite an a nifty place. And, of course, Flint was a prosperous Industrial city back when I was a child in 19 fifties and end of 19 sixties. So I was Fortunate to be there, but a lot of people in my time would simply graduate high school and go into the auto industry in the Flint area. I mean, at that time, it was really kind of a big thing in many factories, different kinds of factories and all that.

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:03:24]:
Well, when I was an adolescent, I was taking a sports physical, and they picked up some funny readings in my my urine. I listened to my heart had some funny readings there, and the recommendation was that I should get evaluated for these things. And so I was. One workup was that the heart was investigated at the University of Michigan Hospital in Ann Arbor, and the other was to investigate kidney function, and that was done at Hurley Hospital in Flint. And the investigation of the kidney showed that I only had one, That I simply was born with 1 kidney, and they wanted to restrict my activities. So no tackle football, no wrestling, nothing that would really cause damage to that kidney. And for the heart issue, they consider it to be clinically Trivial, but they still advised that I stay away from things like full court basketball, and that disappointed me to some extent. But All of this affected my mother.

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:04:25]:
My mother and father both were working in the auto industry. They had had some vocational training and stuff like that. My mother was convinced that I might not be strong enough to work in a job on the assembly line or something like that in the auto industry. So although she was not educated, she decided that I really needed to move in that direction, and so She was strongly pushing me, in fact, reminding me about my grades. And, you know, your grades are not up to it. And she kept saying the world doesn't owe you a living. That was her thing, and I I don't know. I like a dollar for every time I heard that from her.

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:05:05]:
But so She was one of my strongest backers in going for college training that would just take me away from physical labor like you might have in the auto industry or something like that. So, actually, it suited my interest because I was not inclined to do that kind of thing anyway. I simply wanted to be educated. I wanted to have a liberal arts education to start with. That was my thought, that I would have a liberal arts education. And then at the graduate level, again, training that would lead to a profession of some kind. So that's the way I I thought about it. Even as an undergraduate, I was thinking about, well, I could do this.

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:05:46]:
I was thinking, well, what about medicine? Then looked up the course requirements and all that for medicine, dentistry. And actually, when I was in high school, I had gotten close to an economics teacher, and he was talking about the world of economics. And he had this friend that was a stock broker, and he got me together with his friend to talk about possibilities there. And actually, when I started at the U of M Flint, I was thinking I might major in business administration. But during that 1st year, you don't really take courses in business administration. It sort of Started in your 2nd year. So meanwhile, I'm doing the liberal arts stuff, doing, you know, taking math and history, English, and all that. And by the end of my freshman year, professor Caldwell, who was the chairman of the math department, was trying to talk me into becoming a math major.

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:06:40]:
And he was saying, well, look. You get into math, there are many ways you could go with that. You don't necessarily have to be a teacher of math. Although it seemed attractive to me to be a teacher of math, and I decided, okay. I'm gonna be a math major, But I like biology too, and it turned out that I sort of warped the, you know, the whole thing with liberal education, You know, where you take this and this and this and this. Well, half of my credit hours as an undergraduate were in math and biology. I think it was 40 hours in math and 20 hours in biology. The biology, I sent me because I liked it.

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:07:18]:
And then what happened was the summer between the junior and senior year, Something like that. I was teaching somebody to water ski. In Michigan, the lakes are there, A lot of boating and stuff. And, you know, in our family, we had this cottage on a lake in Northern Michigan, and we went there. We had a fishing boat, and we had a water skiing boat, and did a lot of water skiing. So one of our neighbors up there I knew the family, but I didn't know everybody in the family, and She asked me to teach one of her sons to water ski, and I never encountered this son of hers Before, I knew some of the siblings, and it turned out that this guy was just completing his PhD At Michigan in biostatistics. And so he was asking me what I was doing, and I said, oh, I'm Majoring in math and a minor in biology. And, you know, just all of a sudden, the light went on, and he was saying, well, why don't you think about biostatistics? And I'd never heard of it.

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:08:18]:
And so I decided I would go to Ann Arbor and talk to a professor down there. It was in the School of Public Health, Very nice professor was telling me about the program. And one of the things that the fellow mentioned that, you know, when I was teaching in the water He he said, look. If you get accepted into this program, you won't have to pay any tuition, that it's all gonna be free. Because at the time, there were these US traineeships And, basically, for STEM kind of stuff. And virtually everybody in the school of public health was on one of these traineeships. And so, you know, I checked that out with the professor and he said, that's true. And I thought, this is really great.

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:08:58]:
And I mentioned this to one of my classmates In the math department, who was planning to go to Michigan Graduate School in computer studies to switch from math to computer, And I said, look at this program here. We can go and and have a free education. And she came along. When we both went into the program, She only stayed with it through the masters, and then there was a pharmaceutical company in Ann Arbor, and she basically Had a career there, and, she just, you know, recently retired and all that stuff. Going to the school of public health, the way that worked Was the master's degree with 60 semester hours for a master's. Now compare that to, say, the math program, which was 24. 24 versus 60, but the 60 is free. The reason it was 60 was because they expose you to different areas of public health.

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:09:51]:
So when you have an Miles per hour degree, it's not merely what you're concentrating on, but you have exposure to things like environmental health, Population planning, medical care organization, and so it was great. I I really enjoyed that extra component. And so At the end of the Miles per hour program, the money that I had for that traineeship dried up. And so I was looking to go on to the Rackham Graduate School for the PhD in biostat, and I was fortunate enough to get a Rackham fellowship. And so I was able to just sort of continue on Being supported, now it's not federal support, but from the university itself. And at some point, in taking my courses getting more advanced in biostat, I decided to take a class in survey sampling, and that, all of a sudden, really excited me, and the teacher was world famous. He was just the go to person. If you want hands on training to be a career have a career in survey sampling, this kind of thing.

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:10:59]:
And he was an idea generator. He was a professor of sociology. He was not so analytical. And so as I got at the dissertation level, I had 2 advisers. He was my chief adviser, but I had to have someone from the biostat department to be like a colead on my dissertation committee. And this other person was very strong analytically because, actually, my dissertation very much had a lot of math in it. If you just flip through the page, you say, oh my god. Look at all this math.

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:11:31]:
But some of that is rooted in my training at the University of Michigan Flint with some extra training in graduate school, and then I got to a point where I was able to I never could've predicted it from, you know, when I was younger Doing all this math. So this advisor was opening my eyes up. He was very global. He was actually from Hungary, born in Hungary, And he had a global approach to everything, and he had this program for foreign statisticians. And so he said, it'd be good for me to join in on that. And so all of a sudden, I'm getting excited about cross cultural issues and

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:11]:
Now you've had a varied career, one that has taken you all over the place allowed you to research many different things. Can you tell me a little bit about that career and where it's led you over the years?

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:12:22]:
You know, when I was growing up, I basically didn't go anywhere. I went to the lake, and we did our water skiing and all this kind of stuff. Even though, like, I was Very close to Canada. Never even went there as a child. I mean, it would have been an hour and a half or whatever to get to Canada. We never went there. And so I came to realize at some point that I really needed to expand my horizons in terms of All those kinds of stuff. So I'm working at the population level.

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:12:52]:
That that's what my training was. I was connected with the Institute For Social Research in Ann Arbor And then how I got my job, my 1st job at MIA, was a chance thing. I was at 1, a major statistical meeting, And I met one of the persons who had graduated from the BioStat program a couple years ahead of me. I I knew who he was, and he knew me. And, we got together and he said, the NIH Neurology Institute is looking for somebody like you. I mean, this was a new information for me. I was somewhat interested in NIH anyway because a number of very famous statisticians were there. And I thought, gosh.

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:13:34]:
If these people are having a career there, it must be satisfying for them. And so I Check that out too. And sure enough, they were looking for somebody like me, and so I applied for a job there. And, essentially, I was hired as a survey statistician, but I was functioning in the area of epidemiology, neuroepidemiology. We were studying major neurological conditions sometimes in the United States, but sometimes abroad. So My first project was in rural Mississippi, which was the contrast to me, you know, northern urban background all of a sudden In rural Mississippi, it was a bit of a culture shock, but that was another thing. It just took me away from what I knew As a child, when all of a sudden, I'm exploring new things, and within 2 years of being in the Neurology Institute, I was part of a team where we were official guests of the government of Egypt. And so I had a chance to go to Egypt.

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:14:37]:
We were there to advise a stroke study. We visited some hospitals and everything, and we were wondering why they wanna do a stroke study because we were seeing so much malnutrition, and we thought they should really maybe focus on something else. And it turned out that they really didn't wanna do a Stroke study, what they wanted was an advanced scanner for brains. At the time, this was a CT scan. And today, that sounds kind of old fashioned, but in the 19 seventies, that was kinda like state of the art kind of stuff. And one of the team members actually arranged for the government of Egypt to acquire a scanner that they put in one of their their prestigious hospitals and all of that. So at some point, I'm sitting in a hotel in Luxor, Egypt, sitting out or in India. It's like a Portier out front facing the Nile River, and boats are going down the river.

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:15:32]:
And across the river is the valley of the kings and the valley of the Queens, and I'm thinking, my god. How far have I come from those days of just going to the lake? That was my 1st foreign trip to go to Egypt. But I've had in the course of the years, I've had projects in China, Spain, Italy, Argentina, Guam, so all these opportunities for travel. And part of it goes back to my at the Institute For Social Research were all these cultural things. And to me, it was just exciting. And then at some point, I decided to switched from actually doing the hands on work research to the funding side, the funding of grants related to the very thing that I was doing. So I had all these years of expertise, and now I would advise other people Who wanna do projects either in the United States or abroad even to be funded through the National Institute on Aging, and so that's what I do now. My focus is on Alzheimer's, and my family has a lot of dementia in the family.

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:16:46]:
And so here it is. I have an opportunity to do battle with the disease that's Doing in my family and many other families, Alzheimer's is a major public health problem in the United States worldwide as well. Today, we're trying to study the disease in low and middle income countries as well as in the United States, and it's all very exciting. And And I've been at this now for 20 years, and there's been a lot of advances. We've got there's more to be done. But comparing now Where you have all these biomarkers and things like that. They didn't have that 20 years ago and they were always studying dementia in old people. And now they realize that the disease starts subclinically and may, you know, take many years to actually manifest.

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:17:37]:
And so now this sort of a life course epidemiology where you think about exposures of children, exposures in midlife, And how that pertains to the risk of developing the condition in your more senior years. So it's all very That's fine to

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:54]:
me. To get to where you are today, you also had people that helped you to get there. And I know that mentoring has been something that You have had throughout your career that has helped you to be able to become the person that you are today. How has mentoring helped you? And how do you feel that it led you to doing what you're doing today?

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:18:20]:
I had mentors all along the way, Including after I came to NIH. In fact, you can imagine that my dissertation adviser was a continuing mentor after I left school. But the funny thing was that I developed a relationship with this very famous statistician who did quality control work. His name was w Edwards Deming, and, he's a famous guy, and you can look up some of his stuff on YouTube. And the irony was that he used to mentor my dissertation adviser. So my dissertation adviser, his name was Leslie Kish, also a famous guy. He said, oh, why don't you try to teach Deming something and complete the circle? I knew Deming for a few years, and I never found anything I could teach him actually. But mentorship was something that I valued all the way along the way, and I consider even that economics teacher in high school To be like an early mentor.

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:19:16]:
And then doctor Caldwell at the University of Michigan Flint, who was the chairman of the math department, He followed my career all the way through the graduation from U of M Flint and beyond because he was curious to know how this was gonna play out. And then I got to the School of Public Health and took up a relationship with this guy who Was a demographer and was actually the chairman the chair of the department of biostat. And he had earlier in his Career, he had been one of the the people that shaped the Framingham study. If you've ever heard of that one, that was a major cardiovascular epidemiology study done in Framingham, Massachusetts, and that study is having its 75th anniversary this year. So it's still going on after 75 years. And so he helped to put it on the footing of an epidemiology kind of study that was geographically based and all that kind of stuff. And then, of course, I met my dissertation adviser, who became sort of the next major mentor, and then Deming, Finally, when I got to Bethesda, so the mentors were just critical all the way along the way. And so many things I did Some decades ago, but probably the whole mentoring thing resonates today.

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:20:37]:
It's very, very important.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:39]:
I appreciate you sharing that. Now one of the things that you talked about, I think, about going from the University of Michigan Flint to then moving Moving to the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor to do your master's and doctorate. When you make those transitions, You know, education's different. The way that you are taught in your undergrad is different than the way that you're taught in the master's or the doctorate level and that the Expectations are a little bit different in what you have to do to be able to prepare yourself and to be able to make sure that you're setting yourself Upright for success is a little bit different. So as you think back to that transition, that transition from undergraduate work to graduate work, you were able to find success In that transition, what did you have to do to be able to set yourself up for success, and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout grad school?

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:21:29]:
Well, in some ways, I was kind of lucky in that at the University of Michigan Flint, it wasn't a very big school, and and you can imagine in the math department way back when I was there in the in basically in the late 19 sixties and graduated in 1971 to be a math major. It was a small group. I mean, it was not a huge, Huge group. And so we all knew each other and everything. And then when I got to Ann Arbor for biostat, It also was not large. You picture these lecture halls with 200 students in there, and that's not what I experienced Except when I was doing the peripheral public health training outside of Biostat, where I was with public health nurses, Other people majoring in epidemiology or medical care organization, population planning, all this kind of stuff. So I could find myself in a big group, and there I was lucky too. Like, for example, for medical care organization, The professor was considered to be one of the best professors in all of the University of Michigan, And he was my teacher.

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:22:43]:
It was a larger group to be sure, but he was an incredible lecturer. Sure. I went into that thing. Oh, this is gonna be really boring, and he just brought it to life. It was very interesting. And and a lot of these other things We're interesting too, like environmental health. We were having lectures on toilets around the world, you know, how how you can have a different kind of toilet system in a different place and all that. I didn't see that that was critical to my career training, but but certainly was interest.

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:23:13]:
So there was all this stuff going on That was interesting. And I have to say that one of the things in in the biostat training that I wondered about, Like, for example, if somebody's doing a clinical trial or something like that where they're testing the efficacy of a drug, given the way that people are chosen for these Clinical trials that they may be patients at a a medical center or something like that. How do you actually generalize? And so beyond those people that were actually in the study, and I found that to be a little unsatisfying how they did it because, basically, it was sort of Assuming. Well, if you find people like the ones that are in your trial, you can generalize to them. But when I got to take survey sample and realized that there actually is a statistical approach for drawing a sample and then making generalization to a larger Congratulations. That really excited me, and I thought, wow. This is kind of a solution. And so all of a sudden, I went from being Somewhat skeptical to being really excited, and that was for me.

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:24:19]:
And my professor, Kish, he actually suggested my dissertation topic. It was a very broad suggestion, and he'd actually given the very same suggestion to some other students over the years. And so I decided I didn't wanna know what they were doing because I didn't want my thought process To be clouded by what they were doing. So I stayed away from them and did my own thing, and I generated Four peer reviewed papers from my doctoral thesis, and that didn't even include anything like a literature review or anything like that. And some of the stuff was Very mathematical. And one of my first published paper was actually an appendix from my dissertation. Without adapting it too much, it sort of became My 1st paper, and it was a math paper, essentially. So I was pleased with that.

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:25:11]:
And then the other ones were sort of a bit broader. And and sometimes My dissertation adviser would be a coauthor, but I think on that first one, I might have been all by myself. They just thought I should have at least 1 paper where I'm the only author. That dissertation adviser, he treated me like family. So I literally I mean, I would go over to his house and stuff, and I had a couple of daughters They were more or less my age, and one of them moved to Washington. And so when I moved to the Washington area, he would come out to visit his daughter, and and And he would get together with me too. I mean, not the 3 of us, but he would find time for me while he was out there with family, and then he also had Some business that he was doing there as well. But at the dissertation level, he's so famous that he just showed up at the Census Bureau and said that he would like to have a A research contract to support me and also have some money for him, and they just said yes.

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:26:06]:
So my Actual dissertation work beyond beyond the coursework was funded by this contract with the Census Bureau. And then when I got to Bethesda, They wanted me to come over to the Census Bureau to give a seminar on my dissertation, essentially, which they had helped to fund and you're saying, and I did that, and I was happy to do it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:26]:
Now you've given a lot of piece of advice today, a lot of things for people to think about in their own journey. As you think back To the the journey that you went on yourself and the journey that you went through, and you think about others that are coming along now that are thinking about graduate school. What are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them define success?

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:26:49]:
I think they need to get comfortable with the graduate program would be a focus on something, and they might even have More than one possibility, and so they really need to come to a decision about which direction to take. And this is not something you you might do for a week. Thinking about it for a week, you got your whole undergraduate time to think about the next Yeah. And so that would be the first thing is to okay. What are you gonna do? And then of Michigan was great. I knew that it was attracting people from all over the world, actually, as Students. And so I never questioned my decision to go to Anheuser. It just was a natural thing.

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:27:34]:
But I realized there are people who Alright. U of M Flint, it might not have grown up in Michigan even, and so they can have a completely different point of view. And they may need to Hone in. Okay. Having a topic area, but then which university might be best for their topic. And so they might need to get comfortable with looking at different universities and that kind of thing as well. But they really need to focus on And that's a major decision. Right? Because all of a sudden, you're you're gonna go along a career path, and you wanna have success there.

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:28:08]:
And not only success, but you Wanna be happy. You wanna be satisfied that you're doing something that's useful and something that's important.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:16]:
Well, Dallas, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing Everything that you have shared, for sharing the journey that you went on and the amazing career that you've had, and I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:28:27]:
Well, thank you. And I had an opportunity to visit the University of Michigan Flint earlier in the year, and it's so different now than what it used to be. It used to be such a small place was 1 building, and I think they might have had at least 1 trailer. I don't know whether they had more than 1, but I think the math department was actually in the trailer. So that was another But so now when I see the Murphy Science Building and all this other stuff, you know, Murphy was a professor for me. He was my zoology professor when I was a freshman, and it was a tragedy that by the end of my freshman year, he had died. I never understood what the cause of death was, but when I had him in that 1st semester, he seemed healthy enough. And then I Switched to the next thing was botany, zoology, botany, and then genetics, and so I was involved with the next chair of the department of biology.

Dr. Dallas Anderson [00:29:20]:
So I had connections there too. And so I was an assistant in both the biology department and the math department. And so all these things are possible. Well, thank you so much. And I'm absolutely convinced that the University of Michigan Flint with its emphasis on not only Training, but going the extra mile the faculty going the extra mile for the students is really something. And I was pleased to find out that this Continues today after decades.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:49]:
The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing here in education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflute.eduforward/graduateprograms To find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, Email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

The decision to pursue graduate education is a significant milestone for many individuals. It marks a new chapter of learning, growth, and personal development. In a recent podcast episode of Victors in Grad School podcast, hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, Raymond Pirouz, an instructor at Michigan State University, shared his experiences and insights on his graduate school journey. From his motivation to pursue an MBA to the challenges and rewards of returning to academics after years of professional experience, Pirouz provided valuable perspectives for anyone considering or currently engaged in graduate education.

Making the Decision to Pursue Graduate Education

Pirouz reflected on the timing of his decision to pursue a graduate degree, highlighting how life events and professional commitments often detour initial plans. Despite the delay, he emphasized the importance of recognizing one's readiness and finding the right moment to invest in oneself. His journey underscores the idea that graduate education should be seen as a gift to oneself—a pathway to personal enrichment and growth.

Choosing the Right Program and University

As someone with a background in graphic design and marketing, Pirouz explained his inclination towards business education, viewing the MBA program as a natural progression to align with his career interests. When selecting the University of Michigan Flint for his MBA, Pirouz prioritized flexibility and found personal significance in contributing to the Flint community. This insight demonstrates the value of considering not only academic factors but also personal and community-related elements when choosing a graduate program.

Balancing Graduate School with Professional and Personal Commitments

Transitioning back into a student role after years of teaching, Pirouz acknowledged the need for discipline, time management, and relationship building. Drawing from his teaching experience, he identified the importance of setting and pursuing goals, strategic commitment, and the nurturing of meaningful connections with faculty and peers. His experience provides a practical understanding of how individuals can navigate the dual responsibilities of graduate school and personal/professional obligations.

Applying Learnings from Graduate School

Upon completing his MBA, Pirouz seamlessly integrated his newly acquired knowledge into his teaching. He emphasized that the value of a graduate degree lies not in discrete activities or lessons but in the overall growth and development it fosters. The capacity to manage group dynamics, deadlines, and complex challenges during his studies has now become inherent in his professional work, reflecting the real-world applicability of graduate education.

Mentoring Future Graduate Students

As a mentor, Pirouz shares his insights with future graduate students, highlighting the increasing competitiveness of the workforce and the role of a graduate degree in professional advancement. He encourages prospective students to consider gaining work experience before pursuing graduate education, emphasizing the benefits of a mature perspective in the academic environment.

Embracing the Graduate School Experience

Pirouz's unique perspective as a returning adult entering a student cohort with varying levels of professional experience sheds light on the diverse dynamics of graduate education. His approach to group activities, management challenges, and self-determination within the educational experience encapsulates the essence of embracing learning as a personal journey of empowerment and growth.

Conclusion

Raymond Pirouz's journey through graduate school and subsequent application of his learnings reflect the holistic impact of higher education on personal and professional development. His insights offer a roadmap for individuals embarking on their own graduate journeys, reminding us that the pursuit of knowledge and growth is not confined to the classroom but extends to how we navigate, engage with, and contribute to the world around us. In conclusion, Raymond Pirouz's valuable insights serve as a guide for individuals navigating the multifaceted landscape of graduate education, offering guidance, encouragement, and wisdom for anyone seeking to embark on, or currently engaged in their own graduate school journey.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:
Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]:
Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host doctor Christopher Lewis, director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint, really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you, To work with you on this journey that you're on. And it is a journey because I know that you might just be at that Beginning stages as you're thinking about, do I really wanna do this? Do I want to step into graduate school? You may be in graduate school or have already applied to graduate Cool. And now you're getting ready to start or you're in graduate school and you're working toward that light at the end of the tunnel. No matter where you're at, There are things that you can do to be successful in graduate school, and that's what this podcast is all about. It's all about helping you to learn from others, to Help you to give you the skills that you need to be able to think about the future and your future success. I love being able to walk with you on this path because there are things that you can do now and in the future to prepare yourself well for that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:16]:
And that's why every week I also love having different guests on the show that have gone before you, that have experienced graduate school, Have done graduate school and can share that experience with you as well. This week, we've got another great guest. Raymond Peruzz is with us, and Raymond is an instructor at Michigan State University, Teaches a number of different classes at the undergraduate level, the MBA level, the executive MBA level, And even some specific courses that are very targeted. And he did his graduate work at the University of Michigan Flint getting his MBA in the past. I'm really excited to have him here today to talk to you about his experience. Raymond, thanks so much for being here today.

Raymond Pirouz [00:02:06]:
Well, thank you so much for having me. It's my pleasure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:08]:
It is my pleasure having you here today. Love being able to talk to you and learn from your experience. 1st and foremost, I wanna turn the clock back, and I know that you did your undergraduate work at the Art Center College of Design, you got a BFA there. And then from there, you went on, you had a number of other opportunities, experiences working. And at some point during all of those experiences that you had, you made a decision made a decision that you wanted to continue your education and get Your MBA. And so let's go back in time and talk to me about what was going through your head as you're going through those work experiences is that led you to deciding that you wanted to go back and get that graduate degree?

Raymond Pirouz [00:02:51]:
Well, I mean, it's a good question because my goal was to get my graduate degree Pretty much right after my undergrad degree. However, as they as the saying goes, life gets in the way. Right? Work gets in the way, relationships, what have you. All kinds of things happen that for one reason or another may become blocks to your being able to achieve those objectives you may have set for yourself earlier. So at some point, 25 or so years after receiving my undergrad, I finally decided that, you know, it's now is the time. I'm not getting any younger, and I really wasn't a position where I do that for myself. So, I mean, I I did see it as, like, a gift to myself, and that is really what it is. I mean, at the end of the day, education, if you think about, you know, if you just think more broadly about why we're here.

Raymond Pirouz [00:03:36]:
Who knows. Right? Who knows why we're here on this planet. However, the one thing that I do know is that flesh and blood, I am for real, and the one thing I could do is to Elevate myself and make myself the best version of myself, and that is an investment in myself. So at some point, I decided, you know I'm finally in a position where I can take the time. Kids were grown, had more time, had made some investments, and had the opportunity to then be able to dedicate and, you know, treat myself to a graduate degree to take myself to the next level.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:05]:
So in giving yourself that gift that you decided to get that Masters in business administration. Talk to me about why an MBA. What was it about an MBA that made you decide that that was the route that you wanted to go? And 2, You probably had a lot of different options. You could have gone to a lot of different schools. You ended up choosing to attend the University of Michigan Flint. Talk to me about why The University of Michigan, Flint was the choice for you.

Raymond Pirouz [00:04:30]:
Yeah. Well, why MBA? So as you mentioned, you know, my undergrad was in graphic design from the ArtCenter College of Design. I started my career in advertising. And, obviously, I worked many years after that, and I ended up My professional career allowed my last role as director of marketing. So I did progress in my career organically. However, From the beginning, I had an interest in business. So even when I was in a design student, my interest was in the impact that design could have on business. So I wasn't as interested as my peers were in terms of the aesthetic value of design for design sake.

Raymond Pirouz [00:05:05]:
I was far more interested in the commercial aspect, the commercial implications, the commercial impact. And so that kind of actually kinda made me an outcast in the United School, Believe it or not. Right? So I was like a troublemaker. People didn't like that orientation, but that's the orientation I had. And so I knew that I naturally felt more comfortable. Especially when I talk to other people who were business people, I just felt more comfortable in that space. And so I knew that that's what I wanted to pursue, and that made the most sense To me, it was the perfect fit for me. As they say, you know, you gotta find that perfect fit.

Raymond Pirouz [00:05:37]:
For some, it's a journey. For me, it was a journey to find who I am, what I respond to, what I like, what works for me, And the MBA was just perfect. Obviously, MBA in marketing, not MBA in finance or accounting. So, yes, I knew what role I I would pursue with within the MBA as an area of focus, of course. Why UN Flint? So strategically, I was looking for a program that would work with my schedule. I was busy doing everything that I was doing, so it needed to be flexible. So flexibility was the number one reason I chose UNFlint. The other, I think, variable is that for whatever reason, just Flint to me just is interesting.

Raymond Pirouz [00:06:13]:
It's like for me to be involved In anything having to do with that part of the world, in a way, I mean, I don't know. It feels like I'm giving back or made a contribution to that community, and I wanted to support that community. So that's another reason why I thought Flint was a good choice. So flexibility and somehow being involved With that brand and, you know, giving back to that community. I I knew that, you know, by involving myself and going to that school, I met going to that community, eating lunch there, Stinging hotels there, supporting that community. So that was important to me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:43]:
Now as you said, for you, it was 25 Years after your undergrad that you decided to go get that graduate degree, you'd been teaching in the past, But being a student again, there is a transition that you have to go into. Now you were able to find success In that graduate school experience for yourself, but what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transition back into being a student. And what did you have to do to maintain that success as you were balancing all of the other things that you were doing throughout that graduate school experience?

Raymond Pirouz [00:07:21]:
Yeah. So it's a good point that I have been teaching for over 25 years now. I started teaching right after my undergrad. I've just Always been fascinated with the idea of taking complicated information, packaging it, and delivering it to other people to help them lead their lives, right, to become successful themselves. So I always loved that. As I was doing that, obviously, I learned by observing what makes a good student. What are some of the behaviors of the better students in class? So I learned from that actually, and you learn a lot from the people that you're in the room with and whether or not you're a student or a faculty member, if you're paying attention. So I'm the kind of person who does pay attention.

Raymond Pirouz [00:07:54]:
And so I learned from that. But I also I mean, obviously, The, as you grow up, you learn what works and what doesn't work in life. I knew that being disciplined and being able to set aside and make a commitment to an effort for it to be successful was the only way for it to become a success. And so you have to be very goal oriented, very strategic, very thoughtful in your approach, so I knew that I had to dedicate. And that's why it Took me a while to be able to put myself in a position to be able to treat myself. I didn't wanna do it and be a failure at it. I wanted to be a success, so I knew that it was gonna take a a Tremendous amount of effort that was going to take some dedication and a lot of discipline to be able to set aside the time. When you have a family, you know, you're gonna have to Set aside your week and make sure that you have certain number of hours that you dedicate to 1 task versus another.

Raymond Pirouz [00:08:37]:
I was in a position to be able to dedicate a certain number of hours to study and doing a good job. The other thing I learned obviously throughout my professional career and and working and teaching was that relationships were very important. And I knew that I needed to be very good at building and nurturing the relationships that I would have with not just faculty members, but also with my peers in the program. And I knew that being able to do that would lead me to to a more successful overall experience. And and, obviously, I set forth with the intention of doing that as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:07]:
Now you had many years of experience. You've been a teacher. You have worked with Students in your own classrooms. You finished this masters of business administration. You continue to teach. How How do you see yourself incorporating what you learned throughout your degree into the work that you do every day?

Raymond Pirouz [00:09:27]:
I do it every day. You know? So for me, the master's degree was just the next step of my personal evolution. Right? The the idea of self Factualization, the idea of making yourself your best self. So I can't say that very specifically this one activity I do is directly related to the degree. That's not the way it works. The way it works is that the degree makes you a more well rounded, a more whole, better version of yourself. You started as version 1.0, and then with the graduate degree, now you're version 3.0. You know what I mean? So, overall, you're going to be Far more accomplished individual who's able to overcome adversity even that much better because the MBA program or any graduate program for the most part is going to consist of endless amounts of group activity, teamwork, deadlines that you have to meet.

Raymond Pirouz [00:10:17]:
And the way I interpret these experiences was that they are preparing you to be A more thoughtful and more accomplished and more successful professional, because that is what the real world is about. It's about deadlines. It's about working with other people. So if you can manage that process successfully throughout the MBA program, in this case, and or any other graduate program, which probably, you know, is structure similarly. You're gonna do a lot better in the professional world after this experience. It is only gonna make you better.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:44]:
Now you have a kind of a unique Perspective. Because you teach students at the undergraduate, the graduate level, and you've gone through that graduate degree yourself, I'm sure that you mentor many students Along the way, as students come to you in your classes or you interact with students on the campus, what are some tips that you might offer to anyone That is considering graduate education that would help them find success in that journey.

Raymond Pirouz [00:11:10]:
I mean, what I tell people Is that nowadays, the world is so competitive, so hypercompetitive that an undergrad is simply just no longer enough to push yourself to the next level. So that's a very practical way to think about it in terms of your overall effort to progress in life and in business And up the corporate ladder, if you will. So that's one way to think about it. Obviously, there's a practical implication and impact to obtaining a graduate degree. The other thing I'd say is that the The experiences that you get in an undergrad, the context of it is like a deer in the headlights. And when you're young, you don't know what you don't know yet. As you get older and as you have more experience, you'll learn a lot more about how the world works. And then it's a good idea to then expose yourself To the thinking that's offered in a graduate program that is largely abstract, but the abstraction of it is important because it takes complex Realities of the world and then packages it in abstract representations of these complexities so that you can unpack it And compare it to the experiences that you've had.

Raymond Pirouz [00:12:15]:
So which I always also tell people, it's not actually a good idea to pursue a graduate degree right after you're undergrad. It is a good idea to go out there And explore and experience some of what the world has to offer and then go back to a graduate degree. My feeling is that you get a lot more out of it, especially when you're Older, I feel you're a lot more serious about the educational experience can be. A lot more serious about what the educational experience is really all about, And you'll appreciate it a lot more. Adult learners seem to make more of their experience in an educational setting than younger folks For various reasons. So I think it's just a part of a natural evolution of a person that wants to take themselves to the next level.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:53]:
Sage Advice, I really appreciate you sharing that, Raymond, and I really appreciate you really delving into the experience that you've had In how you're utilizing that, I mean, it seems as you said, I mean, you're using it on a daily basis because you're teaching it again. And I love the the concept though of Looking at this as an evolution, one thing that I probably should have asked earlier that I think would be interesting is as you said at the very beginning, One of the things that you had thought about was that you were going to go to graduate school right after undergrad. And going right From undergrad to grad, you are in a very different space. And as you said, you don't know what you don't know. You took The time you had work experience and then came back to the classroom. As a returning adult going into graduate school And being in a mix of students that are students that have work experience or that come right from undergrad, What was that experience like for you, and how did you manage that situation for yourself?

Raymond Pirouz [00:13:58]:
It was actually a really fun experience. I mean, truth be told, I was Probably the oldest person or one of the oldest people at the program when I was in it. I'm 55 now, and I must have just turned 50 or something like that. It was crazy. But, Ashley was a lot of fun because, like I said, there are so many group activities, and every time like, so I saw it as fun. Every time there was a new group activity. You know, some people would say, oh, here we go, another group or, you know, another group project. But I would say, wow.

Raymond Pirouz [00:14:24]:
You know, another opportunity to see how this one's gonna go because the challenge is in obviously building rapport with complete strangers, getting to know them, trying to determine How the group's going to work if it's going to work? Are the people responsive? Do the other people in your group seem to be taking the weight of this opportunity as seriously as you're taking it so that you can have a fruitful, meaningful interaction. There are some people that are more checked out than others. So there is a dynamic at play every time a new group is formed. And that to me is a huge challenge. That's, like, the biggest challenge is to establish the group, get the group norms functioning properly so that you can have a meaningful interaction so you can come up with exceptional work. And that at the end of the day, Again, it's very realistic because that's how the real world works. You're gonna be working with actual people. Not all of them are gonna wanna be doing what you're tasked to do.

Raymond Pirouz [00:15:17]:
And so the challenge is to get everyone around the fire and make sure everyone is happy and has what they need and is able to do the best work that they can deliver. And that is a huge management challenge. So if you think about, you know, micro experiences of management challenges of dealing with people, the MBA program is a great laboratory for that, for building management thinking. Again, if you see it like this so I I always tell my students, you're gonna get out of this class what you put into it. Easy to say, Hard to understand or appreciate. You're only gonna get out of the program what you put into it. You can go in to the program, the entire program, and end up saying, I got nothing out of this program. I don't know what this was all about.

Raymond Pirouz [00:15:56]:
That would be a horrible way to go through any program, but there are many people who go through Classes and programs like that. Alright? Or you can go through the program and say, this is what I want out of the program. This is why I'm doing it, and I'm gonna make it happen for me. It doesn't matter who the faculty is. It doesn't matter what the textbook is, what it says in there. I know what I'm gonna get out of this experience, and I'm gonna make the experience work for me. That is the objective of every student who wants to be a good student. You can make the program what you want, but you have to go into it with that mindset.

Raymond Pirouz [00:16:25]:
It's not about someone opening up, You know, the the lid of your skull and pouring information in, it's all on you to make it work for you. And the beauty of it is you can make that work with any program. The program that you inflect, exceptional for enabling you to do that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:39]:
Well, Raymond, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. Thank you for sharing the things that you have learned not only as a Student, but also as a instructor, and I truly wish you all the best.

Raymond Pirouz [00:16:53]:
Thank you so much. It was a pleasure being here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:55]:
The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit food.eduforward/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a Victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, Email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

The journey towards pursuing a graduate degree often begins with understanding the intricate admission process and requirements. Dr. Christopher Lewis, host of the Victors in Grad School podcast, shares valuable insights on the nuances of graduate school applications, shedding light on the essential elements that prospective students need to consider.   Letter of Recommendation: Articulating Your Journey and Aspirations As Dr. Lewis highlights, letters of recommendation play a pivotal role in the graduate admission process. Prospective applicants are advised to communicate their application stage to recommenders, providing specific points that would add value to their letters. It's crucial for applicants to select recommenders who are familiar with their academic journey and can eloquently advocate for their suitability for the program.   Crafting a Persuasive Personal Statement The personal statement is a platform for applicants to showcase their unique qualities, ambitions, and alignment with their chosen program. Dr. Lewis emphasizes the importance of demonstrating in-depth knowledge about the program while avoiding repetition of information from the resume. Applicants are encouraged to be specific, concise, and meticulous in proofreading their personal statement to convey a compelling narrative.   Insights into Graduate Program Interviews The interview stage of the graduate admission process can be conducted through single-person or group interviews. Dr. Lewis stresses that these interviews serve as a means to assess not only the applicant's subject knowledge but also their personal characteristics. It's pivotal for applicants to prepare adequately and present themselves authentically during these interactions.   Understanding Admission Decisions and Financial Considerations Upon submitting applications, prospective students may encounter outcomes such as acceptance, denial, or placement on a waitlist. Dr. Lewis advises responding to acceptance promptly, while also being prepared to manage the financial aspects of graduate education. Understanding and adhering to application deadlines, deposit requirements, and potential financial aid options becomes integral during this phase of the process.   Navigating the Diverse Landscape of Graduate Programs Dr. Lewis underscores the significance of a comprehensive approach to researching and comparing graduate programs. Prospective students are encouraged to create a comparison spreadsheet, taking into account factors such as program costs, class offerings, faculty backgrounds, and application deadlines.   Tailoring Application Strategies to Unique Program Requirements Different graduate programs may have diverse application processes and requirements, even within the same institution. It is imperative for applicants to diligently research each program's specific prerequisites, including application costs, transcript submissions, letters of recommendation, and statement of purpose requirements. Understanding these unique criteria is key to crafting tailored and impactful application strategies.   Preparing for Standardized Tests and Timely Application Submissions Prospective students are advised to research and prepare for standardized tests required by specific graduate programs. Whether it's the GRE, GMAT, LSAT, or MCAT, applicants are encouraged to plan their test dates and study schedules strategically. Moreover, meticulously adhering to application timeliness and considerations for transcript submissions are pivotal steps in ensuring a smooth application process.   Choosing the Right Graduate Program: A Holistic Approach In the pursuit of the perfect graduate program, prospective applicants are urged to consider various pertinent factors. Dr. Lewis advocates for exploring internship opportunities, connecting with faculty and alumni, and attending information sessions or open houses to gain deeper insights into the culture and ethos of different programs. Moreover, assessing program accreditations and aligning program offerings with career objectives are crucial components in making an informed decision.   Incorporating these insights and strategies into their graduate school application journeys equips prospective students with the knowledge and understanding needed to navigate this transformative phase of their educational and professional pursuits. Dr. Lewis's guidance serves as a compass, empowering aspiring graduate students to approach the admission process with confidence and clarity.   TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:
Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]:
Hello, and welcome. Thank you so much for being here. My name is doctor Christopher For Lewis, I'm the director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. I'm really excited to have you here today. Today, I'm hoping that we'll be able to have a A very interactive conversation about graduate school and what it takes to get into graduate school to be able to understand the process of getting into graduate school. Thank you so much for being here. We're really excited to have you here today and to talk about this. I'm hoping to be able to use the next, 45 minutes or so to be able to talk about graduate school, talk about All the things that you need to be thinking about as it comes to graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:52]:
We do have a chat function here, and I encourage you to Use the chat function to be able to introduce yourselves, so feel free to introduce yourself, who you are, where you're from. Go ahead in the chat and do that. And we're gonna be talking about a lot of different things. 1st and foremost, we're gonna be talking about the actual admission process. What do you have to do to be considered For graduate school, how do you pay for this? As a student, whether you're a domestic student, an international student, Whatever it may be, it's important to understand that and what you need to do to be able to prepare for that and The cost of going to graduate school. Some graduate programs are going to be requiring test scores, transcripts, things that you're going to need to send to the school as well as letters of recommendation or statements of purpose or other types of factors, other types of things that you're going to need to send into the programs themselves. So all of those things are are things that you're going to be needing to think about to be able to prepare yourself for as you're looking at the future. Some programs also use an interview process.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:07]:
We'll talk about that and what that can look like. Some of the information I'm gonna be sharing today is A little more general information because I wanna make sure that you understand because every graduate program, every university is just a little bit different. So I'm gonna give you some generalities, especially for graduate school in the United States and what that looks like, also what it looks like here at the University of Michigan Flint. And then finally, what happens at the point of you get everything in, you submit that application, and you then are waiting for that admission decision, And what do you need to do to prepare yourself for after the fact to be able to, then be able to start in your graduate education if you're accepted? Okay. So all of this being said, let's step into the admission process. So as you're looking at the admission process, 1st and foremost, one of the things that everyone needs to do is you need to take the time to be able to Truly research graduate programs. You may have an idea in your head right now about The program or types of programs that you're looking for, every program is a little bit different. So it is important that you take your time To do your research and to look at all of the different types of programs that are out there, whether it be looking at law school to A master of science in computer science to public administration, to business, to health, whatever it may be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:44]:
There are many different types of programs, and every program looks a little bit different. The classes that you're gonna be taking are different. The philosophy of the program is different. The backgrounds of the faculty are different. So delving deep into different programs To explore those programs and to set them side by side will allow for you An opportunity to be able to explore them and compare them equally amongst each other. I typically tell students That one of the things that really helps students is to set up a spreadsheet of sorts, Whether it's in Google or Microsoft Excel or some other type of Excel sheet and make columns For each college that you're considering and in the rows, create a way for yourself to be able to look at each college and compare each college to the same factors, then you're comparing them on an equal basis. So if they if you wanna if if price is a is really important, then you put price there. If it's certain classes Or you're looking for a specific concentration, if you're looking for specific backgrounds of faculty, you write all of that in there So that when you're truly comparing each program, you're able to set them side by side and you're able to then allow yourself to get a better picture of what each program would offer you and what the differences are.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:20]:
After you do that, Make sure you also have those deadlines in there because there are different deadlines for different programs, and you want to be able to make sure you're not missing an application deadline. And you want to make sure that you're applying by those deadlines and getting everything complete. As you're doing your research, you're going to need to also make sure That you are looking at the requirements for each program. Each program is going to be very unique from one another. I look at the programs even at my own institution and even at my own institution here at the University of Michigan Flint. What I come to find is that across even our programs, there's differences. There may be similar things happening within similar within similar colleges, But if you are but if you're looking at something that is in, let's say, the School of management or you're looking at something that is in a completely different college, the requirements may be very different. So as As you're looking at the admission requirements, you're gonna wanna look at things like, what's the cost to apply? Not only to the institution, is there Any additional cost to apply specifically to that program? Some programs do have different fees, different costs, Different you may have to pay a deposit if you are admitted to the program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:44]:
So you have to look at all of those factors. Because as you're planning for graduate school, those are going to be things that you're going to be need to be looking at to be able to know what The actual cost is going to be. Many graduate programs these days are going to be requiring that you have, one, Your transcripts and we'll talk about transcripts a little bit later, but your transcripts sent in. If you are a domestic student, it's pretty easy. A lot of schools are using electronic means to be able to get those transcripts submitted, and it's a pretty direct process. At our institution, most Students are able to send their domestic transcripts from US institutions directly through parchment from your institution over to our institution. If you are an an international student, you typically are going to need to either 1, depending on the institution, you're gonna have to have your Transcripts evaluated through an, an outside evaluation entity, such as WES or ECE, Span Tran, Educational perspectives. There's lots of different ones that are out there, and you need to look at your individual program to see if they require that, what they require, Or institutions may be willing to review your transcripts and review your unofficial transcripts And give you a little bit of time to get those official transcripts to the institution.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:11]:
But, again, each individual campus is going to be different, So you need to look at the requirements, read fully, and make sure you understand. And if you have questions, you always reach out. Many programs will require some type of letters of recommendation. It could be 1. It could be 2. It could be 3. And Many times those types of graduate programs are going to be asking students to be able to Get letters of recommendation from specific people. So it might be a professor and or a, a professional reference.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:50]:
So look at those requirements as well. Statement of purpose is many times very common. A statement of purpose is going to be unique to each program. A lot of times they do want to know why do you wanna do this? Why is this important to you, and why is it something that you are passionate about? So those are things that you need to be thinking about for yourself. And especially if your program has an interview process, It's because many times that type of question is going to come up in that as well. Beyond that, understanding the actual application and Being able to submit your application, many times applications go straight through a university website, But sometimes there are unique application systems that you have to go through. So at our institution, at the University of Michigan Flint, we have some Programs that, reuse what are called centralized application systems or CAS applications. At our university, our Physician assistant, physical therapy, occupational therapy, and public health programs all use different CAS application systems.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:03]:
What that means is that you're going to use an external application system where you'll submit all your documents there. Once that Once you have all your documents in, they get verified by that external agency and then get sent back to the institution. Law school uses this. Med school uses this, pharmacy school, vet school, all of a number of different types of of professional based programs are utilizing these centralized application services. So understanding the admission requirements, Very important, understanding the unique requirements for each program that you're looking at is important because it's not a one size fits all that you're going to have to follow when you're looking at different colleges and different programs. Most of our programs here at the University of Michigan Flint are going to be requiring about 2 letters of recommendation, a statement of purpose. That's pretty common. Sometimes there's some short answer questions that they may ask you in the application process or in an interview, but but, typically, application, Letters of recommendation, transcripts, and your statement of purpose are pretty common here at the University of Michigan Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:20]:
Application timeline, one of the things that you do need to be thinking about when you're applying is the true timeline for that program. There are many programs out there that are that have that admit on a rolling admission basis. If you see that, that means that The application is gonna open at a certain point. Let's say it's September 1st, and they open that that application for the next fall on September first. So anytime between that September 1st deadline and when they say that they're closing, let's say it's August 1st, August 1st, you can apply to be considered for that program. However, there are other programs that have specific application deadlines. So our physical therapy program, that program opens their application cycle at about June 1st. They closed their application cycle on about October 15th.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:19]:
So you have to really be conscious And look closely at the deadlines and know what you need to be working on to prepare yourself To be able to get the things in that you are that you are needing to submit because your application is not going to be complete until everything has been collected and has been received by the institution. And if your application is not complete, that means that the academic unit that you are applying to is not going to see your application until your application is complete. Now talking about application itself, filling the application out is typically not a hard process. There are pretty similar questions across institutions. However, You will find that there are some institutions where they have unique questions that are tailored toward the institution, tailored toward the program itself. So you do have to watch that and know that, that each program is the same and that if you're applying to multiple schools, You want to make sure that you are being conscious of the unique questions and be able to have the time and spend the time To fully fill out the application. As you are looking to fill the application out, you wanna make sure that you You do answer all the questions unless the questions say they're not required or that they are optional questions. You want to Fully answer the questions on the application because by missing something, failing to fill something out that can at times hold your application up while the office that is receiving your application is verifying information.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:14]:
So the goal here is to expedite the process and expedite the experience for yourself So that the process does not drag on for a long time. Now going back to the application timeline, one of the things to think about too and to know is that At the point in which you send in your application, what you're gonna find is that Each program has a different timeline to when they decide on their applications. Some academic programs will wait until the end of their application cycle to review all applicants. Some programs will review applicants on a rolling basis, Meaning that once an application comes in, they're gonna consider that applicant. And then there's other programs that may have different points in the year. So they might have an early deadline. And if you apply right at the early deadline, you're you will find out early Whether or not you've been admitted or not. And you could get put onto a wait list.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:18]:
That's a possibility. And then they wait to look at you again Until later in the application cycle. So each program is a little bit unique. Go back to that spreadsheet that we were talking about To add that information into the spreadsheet so that you then can keep everything organized for yourself And so that you can know what the differences are per program because because the programs are different and it's not the same across institution, across, programs, you want to make sure that you understand what those differences are. As you're filling out the application, the final piece Typically, here is your application fee. Many institutions will waive the application fee if you attend something like this Or if the you go to an event, you know, there's lots of opportunities that that they may do that at at Institutions that are highly selective, they may not, and it may be something that they will require you to submit before You can even be considered. So you have to look at, okay, what is the price, what is the cost, and prepare yourself to be able to afford and pay that and to be able to pay that across numerous institutions if that is something that you're planning to do. At our institution, the typical application fee is $55.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:41]:
That's pretty typical, but there are institutions that have no Application fee. There are some institutions that have higher application fees or lower application fees. Again, as you're looking at it, as you're researching, And you're selecting graduate programs that are going to be a good fit for you, you wanna make sure that you are looking at those and setting those side by side. Okay. So when we're looking at requirements, I'm just gonna kinda click through these and add them all up because I've I've talked about some of these already. But first and foremost, what what are institutions looking for? They're looking for a bachelor's degree. Now we know that Some of you may be still working on your bachelor's degree and that you are planning to be done before you start. That's great.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:26]:
You wanna make sure that if that is the case, that when you are applying, the institution is going to be requiring that your final transcripts are also sent So you could get conditionally admit based off of your transcripts, but to get fully admitted, And that means for domestic students that you'd be eligible for for financial aid or other scholarships, and the same for other students, for international students as well. For you to be able to register for classes in your 2nd term, typically, you're going to have to have those final transcripts in. GPA is definitely a requirement and things that All programs are going to be looking at, the typical average of graduate programs are going to be that they're going to be looking for a 3 point o. Three point o is typically the baseline average. There are some programs that may consider students a little below that. You might get admitted on probation And and given a chance to be able to prove yourself, but you do have to make sure that you are, that that if you do have that lower GPA, that you're working really hard in that 1st term to be able to show them that the chance that they've given you is worth it and that you are, able to handle the quality and the, the quality as well as the rigor of the academics that you're going through in that graduate program. Now there are other programs that are more highly selective or they get many applicants for certain numbers of seats that may have Higher GPAs. Most programs are going to be very transparent.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:00]:
If they require a higher GPA, they're gonna tell you that. If there is a typical average GPA of their accepted class, many times they will show you that on the trans or on the website of the program itself. So you wanna look at that as well. So I can use the example of our physical therapy, occupational therapy and physician assistant studies programs here at the University of Michigan Flint. Those are very competitive programs and have limited seats in those programs. Those programs typically, though the baseline bar is a 3 point o, we typically see that the average GPA of an entering student is somewhere between the 3 4 and a 36. So that's something that I can tell you. Now the GPAs in those programs and the average GPA in those programs is gonna be different Then if I said what the average GPA was for our MBA or for our masters in public administration.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:52]:
So each program is just a little bit different A little bit unique in that way. Test scores, different programs may require a test score, depends on the academic area, depends on, the program and the institution. All of our programs here at the University of Michigan Flint have now, gone away from requiring any test scores, but you will find programs that will require The GRE, which is a graduate records exam, the GMAT, which is typically used for the for business schools, the LSAT for law school admission, the MCAT for medical school admission, you know, all of these different types of tests are out there, and they are tests that Help a program to better understand whether or not you may be able to be successful in graduate school. We have gotten rid of them because we feel that there are other ways to determine that. And we feel that the the tests don't always indicate In the end, if you are, if you are going to be successful so we have chosen that at our institution, but at other institutions, They may still require that. You do need to watch that, and you need to watch when those tests are being offered. Because if you haven't taken them and you're planning to, let's say, Apply for, let's say, fall 24. There are going to be specific dates that tests are typically being offered, And you need to make sure that you have enough time to take the test and potentially retake the test if you need to to be able to get a higher score, and you need to give yourself that time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:27]:
Letters of recommendation. As I said, here at our institution, The typical average is about 2 letters of recommendation. Some programs could have 3 or maybe 1. Every institution collects those in different ways. Some will have you Send in hard copies of letters or email in a copy of a letter from someone or they may have an electronic process. We have an electronic process. So when you are applying, If your program requires you to have a specific number of letters of recommendation, You are going to enter in the information for the people that you want to send those letters of recommendation to, and then automatically Our electronic system, our application system will send that to those individuals. We will then keep you keep you up to date because there is a checklist in your application where you can go back in and see where you at When it comes to the checklist items, the things that you're required to submit to us, and sometimes you do have to follow-up with those people that you've asked To give you a letter of recommendation because just because you send it doesn't always mean that they're going to that they're going to, send it back right away.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:38]:
The other thing that you always should do when you're going to be adding someone and asking someone for a letter of recommendation is make sure that you Talk to those people ahead of time, make sure that you are letting them know that you are or asking them first if they're willing to be a a recommender. And if so, then when you apply, make sure they know you're going to be getting an email Or you're going to be needing to submit this. So if you're applying here, they're going to get an email, so letting them know ahead of time. You're gonna get an email from The office of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint so that they don't just ignore that because sometimes that can be a problem if They do that and then, they say, oh, I never got it, and it could have gone to their spam as well. Personal statement or essay, we talked about that already. And this is a, an electronic process, something that you submit typically electronically to the University that you want to go to, the office, that where that is collecting your application, and they will attach that to your application itself. Sometimes programs will also ask you for a resume or a CV or curriculum vitae. Typically, if you don't know what CV is a CV is a much more, intensive resume that takes a look at a lot of PhD programs will ask for a CV Because individuals at that point may be already doing some research or may be doing some publications or have published in some different ways, So they're going to want something a little bit more in-depth, than a typical resume that you would use for a job.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:18]:
And then Finally is interviews, and interviews can look and feel different ways. Some interviews can be in person. Many these days are going to be via Zoom like this, especially after the pandemic and Seeing that individuals now are much more adept to using this technology, programs are as well. So a lot of times there are there are, those type of opportunities. And I'll have a link at the end. I'll have a QR code that you can link to. This is just this I pulled this from a article that we wrote on our graduate programs blog, which has many, many different resources on it that will help you to be able to prepare yourself well for graduate school. So as you and we talked a little bit about choosing the right program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:10]:
And, I'm gonna try to go through and share a number of different things that you can think about, that you can utilize to be able to consider Graduate school in different ways. 1st and foremost, you want to think about your career goals and interest. You know, why are you looking at graduate school? Why you know, what is most important to you when you're looking at your graduate education? What are you trying to get out of that graduate education? By considering your career goals and your interest, you're able to then look to and understand what are you looking for in a program. So then you're able to find that program that truly aligns with the goals that you're setting for yourself and that you're preparing for yourself in that way. You want to definitely research different programs. We talked about that a little bit already. There's lots of different factors to consider, some of which are are things like cost, location, requirements of the program, You know, how long the program is, what the and, you know, all of those things are going to be factors. You wanna look at, Are there opportunities for you to be able to get experience through internships or clinical experiences? You want to look at all those different factors Because all of those things are going to be things that are, that are going to be important for you to be able to to prepare yourself For the career that you want in the future, there is nothing that says that you cannot reach out to faculty or to alumni of the program or the school that you wish to go to, and reaching out can give you a lot of different insights.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:45]:
Many times, the websites of the academic programs We'll provide you with a list of faculty or we'll introduce you to different faculty members. Faculty love to talk to students. So Reaching out to them, especially if you find individuals that have similar research interests or inter interests in areas where you have an interest as well. You can talk to them and get a better feel for them, but also a better feel for the program. The same is the case with alumni of programs. You can find alumni of programs through through LinkedIn or through other means. I mean, I know on our websites, we have some of our alums that are spotlighted, and you can get some of their stories and, right on the website and hear some of their stories in that way. Accreditation, You may or may not have heard that word before, but accreditation is important.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:35]:
You want to make sure that the program that you're applying to is fully accredited Accredited and that it is accredited by the accrediting body for that professional area. Most academic programs do have Professional accrediting bodies, not just institutional accreditation, but programmatic accreditation. And why is that important? Well, It's important because it ensures you to you that a program is meeting the standards of the profession And that they are doing what they need to do to be able to prepare you well for the not only the education that you want, but also Preparing you well with the skills that you need to be be ready and, able to go into the workforce. There are open houses, information sessions. We have lots of different opportunities here at the University of Michigan Flint, webinars all the time, in person open houses as well, and we know that they are that there are people from all over the place that are considering graduate school. And so we try to at our institution, we try to make sure that information sessions are being held at different times of the day, But every institution is a little bit different. You need to look at their events. And typically on their website, you're gonna see the different events that are coming up.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:00]:
And I encourage you to take advantage of those and learn more, you know, whether it's a programmatic a specific programmatic institutional session that talks about the the the college itself or about the program itself or if it's about something like this, where we're talking specifically about graduate school and what you need to do to be able to be successful in graduate school. These are all great opportunities for you to be able to get a better feel for the culture, the community, the program themselves, and then allowing for you to better feel whether the program is a good fit for for you too. So multiple programs, we know that many people are going to be considering multiple programs, And you're looking at your options. You're trying to find that best fit. That's a good thing. We wanna make sure that you're not limiting yourself to 1 graduate program unless you know And you say, this is the program for me. I have done my research. I've looked at all the factors, and I know that this is a good fit.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:02]:
That's great. But We also know that there's many programs that offer different varieties, different variations of the programs that are out there, And you want to do your due diligence to make sure that it's the right fit. Couple other things as you're looking, we already talked about researching programs. You want to prepare your application materials. You wanna make sure that as you're looking at these, that you you're starting to collect And prepare to collect those transcripts. They need to be official transcripts eventually because you do need to make sure that that those official transcripts get in. You wanna start to talk to the individuals, and if you haven't started your application yet to the programs that you're looking at, Start talking to people that you think you may want to have recommend you and talk to them and find out if they're willing to do that, Especially as you start to whittle down and know how many people you need, what types of people you need so that you can go back to those individuals. Good people are busy, And you wanna give them enough time to be able to send those things in in a timely fashion.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:04]:
The personal statement and statement of purpose can take some time. Make sure to take the time. Take the time to do those well. Don't just rush through and and kind of just Put a half effort into putting the personal statement together, really think about it, delve deeply, even outline what you wanna say and then systematically send that in because you want to put your best foot forward When you're putting that statement in so people better understand who you are and why you want to do this. Again, the test scores, we talked about those in the application fee. Couple of things here. As you get down here to number 6 and you're submitting that your application, you're going to start getting app you're going to start getting emails from the institution. The emails from the institution are going to be sent to the email that you have placed specifically on your application.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:02]:
So make sure that when you are applying, that you're using the email address that you check most often and actually go and check your email. Because too often people apply and then they they're only checking their email every so often and important emails are getting sent And they're missing them. So make sure you're using an email address that you constantly are looking at. When emails do come in, please read them. And if you need if there is a call to action, reply, reach out, And get your questions answered or answer the questions that are being asked of you so that you can move things forward in a timely fashion. Then once you've submitted, that's when you have to wait for your decision. Waiting can be it can last a few weeks. It could be a few months.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:52]:
It really just depends on the program themselves. So each program is a little bit different when it comes to that. So it is important for you to be able to really look through the website and know what the what the program is specifically saying as it comes down to that. K. Next, we're go let me just quickly talk a little bit about, test scores again. I talked about them a bit. Lots of different tests that are out there. Stand these are standardized tests that look at different factors of an individual, depends on the this test themselves.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:25]:
So I'd encourage you that if a If a program that you are planning to apply to is ex is requiring test scores that you are doing your research into the test so you better understand, take some sample practice test to be to better understand what the test looks like, what it feels like, What you're going to need to be successful. There are many books out there for all of these different tests that will give you tips and tricks and things that you can do, But that's important because you want to make sure that if if a if a program is requiring test scores, Then they may have minimum scores that you need. And if that's the case, you wanna make sure you hit that minimum worry that you're hitting above that minimum when you're being considered. So as we're looking at this, The transcripts, I talked about the fact that transcripts are going to be required. Some institutions are going to require you to send in all transcripts from any institution that you've ever attended. So that means everything back to the 1 class you took at the community college by your house To any 4 year institution transcripts, master's degrees, other degrees, whatever it may be, Some institutions are going to require that you send in all. And then there's others that will say, you only need to send us The transcripts from those institutions where you received an actual degree or transcripts where you took classes toward prerequisites for a specific program. So, again, each program, little bit different.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:03]:
You need to look and you need to say, Okay. What is required at that institution? At our institution, we are requiring transcripts. Those are gonna be required from us. At other institutions, oh, little bit different. So you wanna make sure that that you are planning on that. And if you wanna be safe, Just plan to send all your transcripts in, and and you can definitely do that, and that's not gonna be a problem. As institutions are looking at transcripts. They're typically going to look at your undergraduate GPA.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:35]:
If your transcript has to be evaluated by the institution And you're an international student, sometimes they will look at your full undergraduate transcript or any graduate graduate courses that you've taken, Or they may look at the last 2 years. Every school is just gonna be a little bit different. So you have to, again, look at that. What GPA are they looking at to be able to consider you as well. Okay. The cost of graduate education. Now graduate education, graduate school can be expensive. It really comes down to the program and how long the program is.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:12]:
Some programs may be certificates, graduate certificates that you're using to gain Some specific skills in specific areas. You get a certificate at the end that prepares you to be able to work in a specific area or to take those skills and And put them right into action. There are master's degrees that are out there, lots of different types of master's degrees That you can again, you're you're delving deep into a specific area to gain skills in that area. And then there is also going to be, there's doctorate degrees. Now there's clinical doctorate degrees. There's also PhDs. So, every one is a little bit longer than another. You might be able to get done with a graduate certificate in 1 year, a master's 3 and potentially 2 years, but then a a clinical doctor could be 3 years, a PhD could be 5 years.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:04]:
A lot of it just depends On the program themselves and how long it takes for you to be able to get research done if you're in a research based program. The cost of graduate education should be very transparent on the websites that you're reviewing, the institutions that you're looking at. And as you're looking at that, you're going to need to factor in a lot of different factors. But, the cost of graduated education is not just the sticker price. It's not just the tuition itself. You need to look at what are the fees that you are that the institution may charge you as well, Because, sometimes those can be a little hidden and you want to prepare yourself for that. Especially as a domestic student, and it should be very transparent in that regard. International students, there is typically going to be an institutional overall price That the that the international office at that institution will tell you that you have to show that you have in a bank account to be able to attend that institution.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:38:07]:
So let's say it's $30,000. If it's $30,000 for the year, you have to be able to show that you have that in a bank account, prepared for paying for that 1st year of your graduate education. And that every year, they will have you recertify that you have the funds to be able to finish that program. Domestic students are are not required to show the same, but that is a requirement for international students across the board at every institution that I've ever seen. Now there are scholarships and financial aid, things that are available For domestic students as well as for international students, they are different, so you do have to keep that in mind. For domestic students, we do have the the FAFSA, The free application for federal student aid, you may have done that in your undergraduate degree. If you did that in your undergraduate degree, you know what that is is about. The application is open now for individuals that are looking to attend graduate school in 2024, 2025.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:39:06]:
The system is still having a little bit of hiccups because they they they launched a new system. But what from what we have been told, it is Fully working and everybody can submit those. I encourage all graduate student, all domestic graduate students to submit the FAFSA. Even if you think you're not going to get anything, It at least gives you an opportunity to be able to be considered for scholarships or other financial aid that the institution may have That are that do require the FAFSA to be be to be submitted. So take the time, submit the FAFSA, no matter what school you're going to to be able to at least get a better picture, whether that's for loans, scholarships, etcetera. When you're looking at scholarships, every institution is a little bit different. There are different scholarships that are available on our graduate programs website. You're going to see there is a link right there that talks about paying for graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:40:00]:
In there, then you'll see some different scholarships that are available. We have scholarships that are available for Domestic students, we have scholarships that are available for international students, and then there are external scholarships that are that at our institution that go through our financial aid office. So you apply separately through a separate scholarship application to be able to be considered for those scholarships. And those scholarships were set up typically with donors that have set up specific scholarships For specific reasons. So they could be a scholarship for a specific program, or you have to have some other factor in mind. Sometimes there are scholarships or, tuition reimbursement that is available through employers. So if you are currently employed and you're looking at going to grad graduate school and you're looking at doing something That would amplify the work that you're doing. Talk to your employer about it and find out whether your employee, Whether you as an employee, you have access to any type of tuition reimbursement because you might be surprised.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:41:09]:
Now it may not be A 100%. It could be for 1 class every term, but that's something and it pays for something as well. So I encourage you to look at that as well. So there are lots of other external scholarship engines out there as well that have scholarships. Many of these you may have heard of and you may have thought of when you're when especially if you were an undergraduate student in the United States, Many students take advantage of things like Fastweb or CapEx or Unigo. I mean, there's lots of different scholarship engines that are out there, But there are graduate student scholarships that are out there that students don't always take advantage of. So I always encourage students to take a look at these. You may or you may not find scholarships that meet your needs, But it can't hurt to if you have the time to go in, create the profile for yourself, and do a search And see whether there may be some things in there for yourself as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:42:09]:
There's also assistantships at the graduate level. There are assistantships at different schools and they look different in different schools as well. Some are research assistantships, so where you will work with a faculty member and do specific research in that area. A lot of times with those, you're there may be an application process or a a type of a HR process that you go through to be able to be considered For that, so you're applying almost for a job in that sense. There are teaching assistantships. And sometimes, Depending on the program that you're in, you may be required to be a TA. And if you're in a PhD program in a specific academic Yeah. They may use TAs to teach some recitation sessions or working with undergraduate students in some way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:43:00]:
So The nice thing about assistantships is that they are paying you along the way. Some assistantships may pay tuition as well Depending on how many hours a week that you're working. And then there's other academic programs that are built off of assistantships as well, where They may require every student to have an assistantship. And if you don't have an assistantship, you may not be accepted into the program. So All of those things are, again, unique to every program and you need to do your research to delve a little bit deeper. At our institution, our research, our assistantships are research assistantships. So it's a a a job that you apply for, and it's an hourly wage, and you typically are going to be doing research Up to about it's usually about 10 hours a week, and then you get paid for that. And so you'll be getting some money back throughout the year to pay for some of your expenses.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:43:57]:
It's not gonna pay off your entire education, but it may pay off Some of your other bills or do help you to be able to offset costs along the way. Couple other things just to think about when you're thinking about graduate education, You wanna make sure that you're managing your finances and budgeting for graduate school. You wanna prepare yourself for what it's going to be like to be a graduate student, especially if you're a full time graduate student because, you are going to be putting your time, your effort into that. And a lot of times, if you're a full time graduate student, There's not time to work outside of of class or very little time to work outside of class. So that being said, you wanna make sure that you're setting a budget for yourself, taking a look at, okay, what are my expenses and how will I be able to take care of those expenses? If you're looking at part time, it may not be a factor because you'll be working and you'll be taking classes at the same time. You also wanna make sure that you're building good credit while you're in school. You wanna make sure you're paying off your credit card balances. Don't hold off.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:45:01]:
You wanna Make sure that you are dealing with those issues as you're going through and not holding off because you're also taking loans out or you're also trying to pay off the School, you want to stay stay good in that regard. You can the nice thing is you can check your credit every 12 months through a service called annual credit check check annual credit report .com, and that is something that you can take advantage of. You also if you are a domestic student and you're getting student loans, through one of the loan processors, you do wanna make sure that you're managing that along the way and you understand what you are taking out And what you are if you're paying as you go along, what you're paying down, and all of that's just really important for you to keep in mind. Part time employment, As long as you are not a full time student, most students can handle part time work, while they're going through graduate school. But You have to also look at your program because some programs will say you are not allowed to work while you're in this program. And If that's the case, you have to know that. So just keep that in mind and, again, things to look at. Letters of recommendation.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:46:14]:
Let me just kinda put up a couple of things. You wanna make sure that you have strong letters of recommendation. So you don't you wanna have people that really know you. You want to find individuals that can speak positively about you But have known you for a a longer period of time. You wanna make sure that they could speak to your strengths as they relate to the program and why you would be a good fit for the program, and someone that has had enough experiences that they could talk about those experiences and what they've seen about you and what makes you stand out. So make sure that if and when you are going to be thinking about and talking and working with Individuals that are planning to go to graduate or not planning to be a recommender for you for graduate school that you Get their permission before you put their name down, that you inform them when you're putting their name down, and then you stay in touch. And if graduate school may be a few years off and you have some some people that you know are going to be recommenders, Stay in touch with them. Keep them up to date on what's going on with you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:47:25]:
Let them know where you are in the process. Also, as you're asking someone for letters of recommendation, if there are specific things that you want them to touch on, you can ask them to do that. You can say, I wanted to have you be a recommender for me because I know we did that great research project together, and I'd love for you to be able to Talk about that experience and be able to share that with the the program that I'm applying to. You can ask that. Now They're still gonna write it in the way that they wanna write it and you can't influence that, but you can ask them to touch on specific points. If you know that the program is looking for specific things, you can share that with them as well and give them the information that they need to also give get you, give you a good recommendation. A couple other things. These are just so a couple things for you to think about as you're providing, what you should provide your recommenders.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:48:22]:
So couple things that you wanna think about as you're putting together a personal statement. Every personal statement is a little bit unique. So what I am sharing with you is in general, some things that you need to be thinking about. But again, you need to be thinking about The things that are going to set you apart, the things that are going to allow the program to get a better feel for you, but And also know that many of these personal statements are going to be either word bound, meaning that you have a certain number of words that you are able to, used to be able to prepare. So they might say, in 500 words, answer this question. Or You have up to 750 words or a 1000 words, whatever it may be. So these are all different things to think about as you're thinking about that And things that you should be considering as you are preparing for applying for grad school. Couple other things, just some tips For writing statements, don't try to throw everything in the kitchen sink into your personal statement, especially if they are asking for, your resume.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:49:29]:
You don't have to rewrite your resume in your personal statement. So find a few points to emphasize about yourself And talk about your strengths and be precise, be specific, but be brief as well because a lot of times you will have only a certain number of words. You definitely wanna do your research about the program, know the program forwards and backwards, understand the what the program is offering you, but what they want students to do in the program, what the outcomes of the program are, and what the program wants students To be able to achieve once they leave the program as well, because it is going to be important for you to be able to, to touch on that. And you don't want to go in and write something that makes you seem like you haven't done your research in that sense. If you feel that you have any type of gaps or discrepancies, anything that people you think are going to question, You want to make sure that you that you touch on those and that you are answering those and being upfront and honest about that. Striking the right tone and having a strong entry finish to your personal statement is important. And probably most important, I can leave you with anything, is to proofread once, proofread twice, proofread a 3rd time. Make sure that you read it Read it out loud.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:50:55]:
Read it to someone else just to make sure that what you're going to be submitting makes sense. Because too often, if you are making mistakes or if you're not proofreading, there will be errors and and that reflects on you as well. Interviews, Lots of times interviews can show up in different ways. They can be single person interviews where you're showing up and they bring you into a room and you're talking to another person, And that can be virtual or in person. It could also be a group interview where 3 people, 4 people all come together and there's a panel of people in front of you. They're asking a similar question to every student, and then you have to be able to answer those 2, and you're being evaluated With other individuals that are being evaluated at the same time. The questions that you're typically going to get are a mix of kind of specialized question about The subject area that you're interested in, but also are going to look at things about you and allowing the program to get to know you as an individual. Because it's an the interview typically is going to be an opportunity for the program to get a, to get to know you better, But also allow for you to get to know the program better as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:52:07]:
So couple different outcomes when it comes to admission. You can get accepted. You can get denied, but you can also get wait listed. Wait listed typically means that you're going to, If you, don't get accepted right away, they will consider you down the road or you might get wait listed because they've Provided out a certain number of of seats or they've they've offered all the seats out and they're seeing if people accept them. And if they don't, they may go to the wait list. So every program is a little bit different. Couple things that you wanna always make sure you do when you get that acceptance letter is If they're asking for a response, you reply to that either to the email or if it's in an online system Where they ask you to say, yes, I'm accepting. No.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:52:54]:
I'm not accepting. Let the program know. Don't just disappear because the program is going to follow-up with you. So if you've been accepted to a program and the program's emailing you and saying, What's your plan? Just reply. If you've decided not to go there, that's fine. Let them know so that they then can plan for the future because many times they've offered you a seat and they may have not offered a seat to someone else because they've offered you a seat. So if you plan to if your plans have changed, if you're planning to go somewhere else, reach back out to the office of Admissions or the like, in our in our case here at the University of Michigan Flint, the office of graduate programs, and say, you know what? My plans have changed. I'm planning to go to this institution.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:53:42]:
You know, this is why I chose to leave, and, you know, thanks for the opportunity. And just be pleasant, be open, And then the office will cancel your application, withdraw your application, and let the program know so that they can move on to the next person. Okay. Some programs will have deposits. Make sure that if there is a deposit that you pay that. And a lot of times, there is a deadline to pay that deposit, So you want to watch that as well. We want you to be successful, and we want you to find success in the graduate school journey no matter where you're going. So encourage you to reach out and to and I appreciate you being here today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:54:21]:
The University of Michigan Flint has a full We have masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint doteduforward/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as You prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

Are you thinking about graduate school, wondering how others have navigated the challenges and triumphs of advanced education? The latest episode of "Victors in Grad School" is a must-listen for anyone considering the journey. Host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Melodee Hills, a driven lifelong learner who shares her honest, inspiring path from undergraduate degrees through an MBA and now towards a Doctorate of Business Administration (DBA) at the University of Michigan-Flint.

From the outset, Melodee Hills opens up about what first inspired her to continue beyond her bachelor's degree. She shares how she found a passion for learning while balancing a full-time job and recognized the importance of momentum—"school isn't getting any cheaper, and I'm not getting any younger," she notes. Her story is a powerful reminder that sometimes the best time to push ahead is when you're already in motion.

The conversation dives deep into the "why" behind going to graduate school—a recurring theme in the episode. Melodee Hills encourages listeners to identify their core reason for considering graduate studies, emphasizing that a clear sense of purpose will carry you through the tough times. "Once I focused on my why, all of that other stuff just flew out the window," she shares, recounting how filtering out "noise" from naysayers and self-doubt allowed her to stay committed, even when balancing demanding work periods and academic deadlines.

Another key takeaway from the episode is the importance of adaptability and self-reflection. Melodee Hills offers practical strategies for managing the ever-shifting landscape of graduate school, highlighting the need for boundaries, constant adjustment, and supportive communication with loved ones and mentors. She also touches on battling imposter syndrome—a challenge many graduate students face—and how building relationships with both peers and professors helped her find her footing in a new academic environment.

This episode isn't just about hardship; it's about growth and transformation. Melodee Hills shares how her approach to problem-solving has evolved—from impulsive reactions to thoughtful research and big-picture thinking.

Whether you're contemplating graduate studies or are already on the path, the wisdom and encouragement you'll hear in this episode will help you clarify your goals, anticipate challenges, and find actionable advice for success. Don't miss the full conversation—listen to the latest "Victors in Grad School" episode and get inspired to find your own path forward!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:
Welcome to the Victors in Grad School.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:03]:
Where we have conversations with students, alumni.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:06]:
And experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]:
Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, as always, every week, I love being able to talk to you about the journey that you're on. And it is a journey because every individual that is thinking about going to graduate school, maybe you're in graduate school, maybe you're already through partially and seen that light at the end of the tunnel. No matter where you are, you are on a journey. And at each point in that journey, there are things that you can do to be able to find success sooner.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:45]:
That's why this podcast exists. This podcast exists to help you to find some tips, some strategies, some. Some hints from people that have gone forth before you, that might be in graduate school now, that may have gone to graduate school in the past and can share some of what they learned along the way with you. That's why every week, I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can share those experiences with you. And today we've got another great guest. Melody Hills is with us. And Melody is a member of the. And Melody is a DBA student at the University of Michigan, Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:20]:
And she has already gone through a graduate degree once. Now she's doing it again for a different degree. And we're going to talk about that journey that she went on from getting that bachelor's degree, going to a master's, now going for a doctorate degree and talking to you about some of the things that she's learned along the way. Melody, thanks so much for being here today.

Melodee Hills [00:01:40]:
I am happy to be here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:41]:
It is my pleasure. Love being able to have you here and to talk about your journey and what I really want to do. First and foremost, that I want to take you back in time. So I know you did your bachelor's degree at Ashford University, and at some point, at some point during that time when you were at Ashford or maybe sometime after that, you made a decision. You made a decision that you were going to continue that education and go from getting that Bachelor of Arts in Organizational Management and continuing that to get a Master of Science in Business Administration. So talk to me about that and bring me back to that point. What was going through your head and what made you decide that graduate school was the thing to do at that point in your life?

Melodee Hills [00:02:21]:
So back when I did my bachelor's degree. I was really trying to finish because I had been in school for over a decade at that point, and I needed to get to that finish line to finish my bachelor's. But then while I was doing my undergrad, I said, I actually enjoy this. And at the time I was working, I was a staff accountant, and school isn't getting any cheaper and I'm not getting any younger. So I. And I was actually enjoying the process. I love learning. So while I was in that mode of going to school and working full time, I said, I'm just gonna keep going before so I don't lose this momentum.

Melodee Hills [00:02:54]:
So after I finished my bachelor's degree, it took me, I think it was that summer. It was just a few months later, it was less than a year later that I signed up and continued on with my master's degree just to really keep it going.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:05]:
So I know that back a few years back, you made another decision. You made a decision that you are going to continue that education and can go back into the learning mode to be able to get that terminal doctorate degree in business, the doctorate of Business Administration, or the DBA degree. And not everybody wants to do that. Not everybody wants to jump back into education after they have a master's degree. I'm sure that you could have stayed with the master's degree and been plenty fine with your work and continued on. So bring me back to that point and what made you decide to shake it up and go back to graduate school to work on that doctorate degree for yourself?

Melodee Hills [00:03:43]:
Sure. Having a doctorate degree has always just been a goal. It's always been a personal goal. And honestly, when I finished my master's degree, I said, I am never doing this again. I am never going back to school. Academically, I'm done. But then, you know, things change. Life changes and priorities shift.

Melodee Hills [00:03:58]:
And I got to a point in my career where I needed to continue my own growth. I was stalled in my career, and I wanted to pivot into teaching. I wanted to pivot into getting higher into leadership, and the stars aligned, and everything just happened to line up. And I started doing my research, and I found this program, and it worked. You know, I talked to my husband about it. I talked to those that I love and are close to me, and they said, yes, this is perfect for you. You're this lifelong learner. Do it.

Melodee Hills [00:04:25]:
So through my soul searching and a lot of phone calls and just thinking about it, I said, yes, this is the right thing to do for me and my life. Right now to advance myself personally advance myself career wise. It just aligned.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:36]:
So you did decide to attend the University of Michigan Flint for that inaugural cohort of the program when it first started. And there are many DBA programs across the nation and you're actually located on the other side of the country from where this program is located. So talk to me about that journey for yourself and that search process for yourself and what made you finally decide that the University of Michigan Flint was the right program for you?

Melodee Hills [00:05:03]:
Yes, I did research a bunch, a bunch of schools, all reputable, great reputations, legacy. So Michigan, of course, its reputation, its legacy. It has a strong alumni association. It's been around forever, it's not going anywhere. And full transparency. The other ones were required an in person residency either two, three, four times a year, which was fine, you know, to fly to wherever that campus may be. But because the Michigan program was 100% online, that really worked for me as much as I travel personally as for working full time and just the other things I do, the 100% online was really what made me say yes, this is, this is the, this will be the best decision for me right now and in my current lifestyle.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:47]:
Now, when you transition into graduate degrees, there is definitely transitions. The way in which you're educated is different, the way in which the expectations that faculty have of you are different. And it's different at every level, in every type of degree. So talk to me about those transitions that you went through and what you had to do not only at the beginning when you were transitioning in to your different degrees at the different levels, but what did you have to do to be able to maintain the success that you found as you were transitioning in, to transition through that program and to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate degree.

Melodee Hills [00:06:23]:
It's constant reflection to see what works. So what works for me may not work for the next person or I may talk to one of my classmates or someone and what works for them won't work for me. And what worked for me last month may not work for me this month, you know, so it's just a constant looking and seeing where I am now. Someone just said to me recently, be where your feet are. And that to me just really resonated to just be where my feet are and okay, this is. I need to focus more. I have a paper, I have a test, I have an exam. Whatever it may be, I need to focus more this week than I did last week and just always be willing and flexible and fluid to be able to make the Adjustments needed and not be so stuck on an expected outcome because anything can happen.

Melodee Hills [00:07:04]:
So really just being open and fluid and being willing to adapt now, also.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:09]:
When you go into a graduate degree, and I'm kind of lumping both of your degrees together, but I know that it's different at the master's and at the doctor. And as you move into a graduate degree, there are mindset shifts that you have to go through personally that help you to be able to find success. And you mentioned kind of the reflection, but I'm sure that there's some other mindset shifts that you had to go through to be able to get yourself in a place to get yourself in a place that would allow for you to be successful in the graduate program in general. So what mindset shifts did you feel like you had to go through at the master's level, at the doctorate level now that helped you succeed?

Melodee Hills [00:07:46]:
Mind shift. So I'll speak at the doctorate level. I, I didn't know that imposter syndrome existed until I got into this doctorate program. So that whole thing of, should I be here? Am I worthy to be here? You know, looking at certain people that have. Are in the program and just comparing myself to them, listening to other people tell me, you don't need that. Why are you doing this? And I really had to take a step back and eliminate that noise, because that's all it was. It's just noise in my head and find my own why. What's my why of what I'm doing this.

Melodee Hills [00:08:21]:
And once I focused on my why, all of that other stuff just flew out the window. And it was a shift of this is why I'm doing this. This is what's important to me and why I'm. I'm going to finish. And so I would just say filtering out and silencing the noise and the naysayers and all of, all of that other stuff going on to understand why I was doing this.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:42]:
For me, yeah, that's important because you do have to always have in your mind's eye the end result, the goal at the end of the tunnel. I always talk about the light at the end of the tunnel because a lot of times when you're going through a graduate program, you do have to look for that light because sometimes it gets challenging. There will be challenges that you have to overcome when you're going through degrees. Talk to me about challenges for yourself. And maybe there's. Maybe there was one, maybe there was two. Are there any examples that you could share with me of challenges that you had to overcome personally. And what did you have to do to do that?

Melodee Hills [00:09:15]:
Working in accounting? I was a corporate accounting manager and we have month end close, quarter end close, year end close. And they don't care that I have a paper due for this course. They don't care that I have, you know, what I have going on. So trying to balance the time commitment that I needed for work and making sure I did a good job at work, as well as the time commitment that I needed for this program in particular. Because it's a lot, you know, there's a lot of reading, it's a lot of writing, it's a lot of research. So it did require a lot of time. So I would say that would be that just to understand, understand that part of it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:49]:
You know, one other thing that comes to mind, and I talk to students about this all the time, is as you enter different degrees and you insert yourself into that education, sometimes that imposter syndrome creeps in and self doubt in regard to how you feel as a student and whether you feel that you're good enough or you should be there, that you can do what you're trying to do. Talk to me about imposter syndrome and how that impacted you and what you had to do to overcome that.

Melodee Hills [00:10:17]:
For this program in particular, since we were the inaugural program, I didn't have anyone to talk to for an example or to say, hey, what is this? Like, I jumped into this. I finished my master's degree. Gosh, it seems like a lifetime ago. So I'm jumping back into academics, I'm jumping into a doctorate program. I'm learning what my cohorts do for a living. And I'm like, my goodness, how did I even make the cut? You know, so it was like all of those types of things. And then once I got in, I just immersed myself. I became an ambassador for the program, I became a mentor for the program.

Melodee Hills [00:10:49]:
I started just learning my cohorts and just talking to them. I learned that I know things that they didn't, you know, so we just kind of worked with each other on each other's strengths to help each other out. So it just. In the beginning, it was so scary because I just didn't know what to expect. But then as I kind of got my footing, it took about a semester, I mean, to be honest, to really get my footing and understand what I was doing and how I was doing it and understand the professors and how everything worked. But that went away eventually. But yes, it was definitely a thing of why, how why am I here? How am I here? But I got my footing. It's okay now.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:24]:
Now, you've already mentioned the fact that in going into graduate school, especially when you're working and you have family and friends and, and you're wearing lots of different hats, there is this balance that you have to find. So tell me about how you found balance in balancing school, work, family and other commitments that you might have had thus far during graduate school.

Melodee Hills [00:11:44]:
I just had to make sure I set the time and boundaries. Boundaries are so important with this. Like I had to set boundaries with my home. My husband and I agreed we were going to move my office space into the spare bedroom so that I could shut the door and so that I could have that time to really just focus. And that's just so important. So I would really just say communication. I have this paper due and I only have X amount of time before my next seminar to go over the proposal. So huge boundaries and communication and then execution.

Melodee Hills [00:12:17]:
Because it's nothing if you say, okay, this is what I'm going to do, and then you don't do it. So, you know, it's discipline. It's so much involved, especially working 100% remote and being home and you're on your own time and making sure you hit your own deadlines.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:29]:
Now, you also mentioned the fact that when you went into this program, there was no one else ahead of you. So you didn't always have that support network and those people to draw from. And it is so important to build relationships, build relationships with others in the program, but also faculty and peers. So talk to me about how you built those relations, those relationships, even though there wasn't a class ahead of you and how did you build those relationships with faculty or other students and how that was impactful for you as a student.

Melodee Hills [00:12:59]:
So our cohort, again, we were all kind of figuring this out together. So we would talk to each other. We have a group text or WhatsApp group that we communicate through. But I. Another thing that resonated with me at my job was trust but verify. So as the communication will be going on in that group, that's great. But I just got to the point where I said, I'm going to actually talk to the professors about this. I want to make sure that I am clear on this expectation from the person who actually is giving the assignment or given the instruction.

Melodee Hills [00:13:32]:
So I would set up those one on one calls, I would reach out, I would email. Is this right? Is this what the expectation is? Am I doing this the right way. And I just started building that relationship and that openness and you know, certain professors I got closer to than others where I felt more comfortable to reach out to. Dr. White is amazing, Dr. Kelly is amazing, Dr. Asta is amazing. So there's this certain people that I started reaching out to more than others.

Melodee Hills [00:13:55]:
But once I got comfortable with that, because again, coming from corporate and then jumping into academic, these folks that have all these papers written and all these letters behind their name, you know, it was a little intimidating at first, but everyone was so open and so wanting to help and so accommodating and so responsive that it just became easy. And I just became really comfortable with not only bouncing things off my cohorts, but also just checking in with the professors.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:17]:
Now you've gone through an mba, you're almost through your dba. As you think about graduate school and what you've learned along the way, how it's challenged you and pushed you in different directions, how would you say that graduate school has changed the way that you think, work or approach problems?

Melodee Hills [00:14:33]:
I went from being very impulsive to saying, wait a minute, let me think about that. And actually looking for things and finding information on my own and just being a more rounded thinker, broad just looking at things big picture. They say that 10,000 foot view, which I hate incorporate, but you know, I mean, but that's really the thing, you know, instead of just seeing things in this small lens, it makes me take a step back and say, wait, there's more to this. And what is that? I'm always looking stuff up now, you know, if I see something like what does this mean? Oh no, what is that? Oh, you know, so. So yeah, that's definitely been the change from being, I don't want to call it small minded. I'll just say again that small lens to big picture and trying to get the full perspective and the full picture of things.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:20]:
As you think about other students that are thinking about graduate school, whether it's an mba, a DBA or something completely different. And as you think back to your own graduate school education, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Melodee Hills [00:15:35]:
Like I said earlier, find your why. Why do you want to do this? And is this something that you can finish? Because one, it's a huge financial comm to start something and bail or quit or whatever may happen a year or a year and a half because you still have this bill, right? So one, figure out your why and make sure that it's something you can see through to the end. Talk to those that you love and trust and those that will give you honestly, both sides of it. Okay. Well, for Melody, you love to do xyz. Is this something that you can continue during ABC and just think about those things, positive and negative? It can't always be good. There's gonna be some challenges. And then again, just.

Melodee Hills [00:16:14]:
It's an investment. It is for time and money. Just talk to your job. If you're working full time, if you're not, if you're already a student, just understand the full picture of it. To set yourself up for success, to make sure that this is something that you can take and find your support group so that you can make it to that finish line.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:35]:
Well, Melody, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today. I know it's not over. You still got a little bit of time left before you walk across that stage and get hooded for your doctorate degree. And I'm really excited to be able to see you as you finish this journey for yourself and see where you go from there. But I really appreciate you sharing your story today and I wish you all the best.

Melodee Hills [00:16:56]:
Thank you, Dr. Lewis.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:57]:
The university of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that are that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgrad officemflint.edu.

Dr. Christopher Lewis, the host of Victors in Grad School, engaged in an enlightening conversation with Jennifer Keahl, a franchise owner and area developer for StretchLab. Through their discussion, Keahl generously shared her journey, from pursuing a graduate degree to leveraging her education in her professional ventures. The insights provided in their conversation shed light on the crucial aspects of navigating graduate school and the implications of an advanced degree in real-world scenarios.

The Motivation Behind Pursuing Graduate Studies

Keahl's decision to embark on her graduate education emerged from her innate desire for continuous learning. Her passion for education and enthusiasm for taking on additional responsibilities in her professional role became the catalyst for pursuing a graduate certificate in hazardous waste management and subsequently an MBA from the University of Michigan Flint. The opportunity provided by her employer to cover tuition expenses acted as a further incentive. Keahl's experience reflects the varied motivations that drive individuals towards graduate studies, be it the pursuit of knowledge, career advancement, or the chance to tap into new opportunities within their current roles.

Choosing the Right Path: Selecting the Right Program and Institution

Keahl's choice of the University of Michigan Flint for her MBA highlighted the importance of a well-rounded decision-making process. Apart from the convenience of being a local option, she emphasized the structured program and the networking opportunities it provided. These factors played a significant role in her decision-making, illustrating the value of a program that aligns with one's professional obligations and personal commitments. Keahl's deliberate and thoughtful approach to choosing the right program reflects the critical nature of considering various elements such as program structure, networking prospects, and geographic convenience when selecting the right graduate institution.

Transition and Success in Graduate School

As Keahl noted, the transition to graduate school requires discipline, prioritization, and a proactive approach to time management. Her ability to intertwine her coursework with her professional responsibilities speaks to the practical applicability of skills acquired in a graduate program. Her experience underscores the vital role of transferable knowledge in facilitating a seamless transition and sustained success throughout the academic journey. Also, her emphasis on the value of not hesitating to seek help complements the importance of building a support network to navigate the challenges of graduate school.

The MBA and Real-World Application

The discussion delved into Keahl's current role as a franchise owner and her reflections on the connections between her MBA education and her present endeavors. Her experience illustrated the tangible benefits of the MBA program, particularly the insights gained from classes focusing on organizational leadership. Keahl emphasized the significance of softer skills alongside technical knowledge, demonstrating how the MBA experience equips individuals with a holistic skill set essential for real-world applications. This insight provides a powerful testament to the comprehensive value of graduate education in preparing individuals to thrive in their professional pursuits.

Advice for Prospective Graduate Students

Keahl's journey culminated in an encouraging message urging aspiring graduate students to embrace the opportunity without waiting for the perfect moment. Her recommendation to discover and apply one's passion aligns with the overarching theme reflected in her own path. Her story serves as an inspiration for prospective graduate students, emphasizing the transformative potential of pursuing advanced education and channeling that knowledge into diverse professional arenas.

Conclusion

Jennifer Keahl's narrative embodies the profound impact of graduate education, underscoring its role in fostering continuous personal and professional growth. The conversation with Dr. Christopher Lewis provides invaluable insights into the multifaceted journey of graduate studies and the enduring impact it can have on one's life and career.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:
Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]:
Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host doctor Christopher Lewis, Director of graduate programs for the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week I love being able Sit down with you, to talk to you, to help you along this journey that you are on. I know you might be at the very beginning just Thinking about and saying, do I really wanna do this graduate school thing? Or you could be in graduate school and trying to figure out this transition from work To graduate school, undergrad to graduate school, whatever it may be in that regard, or you might be toward the end of your graduate degree and you're looking at that light at the end of the tunnel. But no matter where you are in this whole process, this podcast is all about helping you to find success in that journey. And I say journey Very intentionally because it is a journey. Going through your bachelor's degree is one part of the journey, but then as you go to graduate school, it's very different.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:08]:
And if you've listened to any of our past episodes, you'll hear that to be the case. I also love every week being able to bring you Someone that has gone before you, someone that also has gone to graduate school and has been successful and has found success and is Sharing that success with you so that you can learn and grow from what they had to go through And then make some decisions based on that that might help you along the way as well. Today, we've got another great guest with us. Jennifer Kiel is with us today, and Jennifer Kiel is a franchise owner and area developer for StretchLab, which we're gonna learn a little bit more about today as well, But I'm really excited to learn from her experiences and have her here today. Jennifer, thanks so much for being here today.

Jennifer Keahl [00:01:56]:
Thank you for having me. I'm excited.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:58]:
Well, I am excited to have you here today too, and I know that you did your undergraduate work at Michigan State University, and then you went on from there, and you got a graduate certificate in hazardous waste management, and then Went on from there again and got a master's of business administration at the University of Michigan Flint. And what I love to do And starting these conversations is really turn the clock back in time because what I'd love to do is is really pick your brain a little bit about this journey that you went on. Because at some point in this experience, from going from undergrad into your graduate school. In putting in those professional jobs in the mix, you made a decision to go to graduate school. What were the reasons that were going through your head that made you say, I wanna take this step and go and get these graduate degrees.

Jennifer Keahl [00:02:49]:
Well, I'm a lifelong learner. So I love school. I love learning, and I knew I always wanted to go back to school. And in 2011, the company that I worked for was undergoing quite a bit of change, and it gave me the The opportunity to take on a lot of additional responsibility and be part of some of the growth in that company. And they offered the opportunity to cover graduate school, my tuition expenses. And I went from Getting a new employee handbook and then taking the tests required and applying in about 3 week time period. So we got the handbook in June, and I enrolled and began my program that fall. So I was really excited.

Jennifer Keahl [00:03:33]:
I chose U of M U of M Flint because of the very structured program and the networking and the hybrid opportunity. So that's where I came from.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:43]:
Now you just answered a little bit of my next question, which was you chose to go to the University of Michigan Flynn for the master Through business administration, your undergrad was in a very different area, and you could have chosen to go and get an MBA at many different places. Talk to me about what was the reasoning behind wanting to do the MBA, but then also why you chose the University of Michigan Flint as the place That you ended up versus other places.

Jennifer Keahl [00:04:08]:
I chose the MBA because I was transitioning into an operations leadership role, And the foundation really helped me, to learn the really what I needed to know in from a business side. So my very first class was doctor Chen's accounting class, and it was phenomenal for her to help me learn the some business basics In accounting, I thought that it could be immediately applicable to the new roles and the new responsibilities that I was taking on. I chose U of M Flint. I'm local. I live in Grand Blanc, so it was nice and close, but more so because you know, I had looked at other universities, but more so because of the structure of the program. It was Very cut and paste for me, so to speak. So I'm I was very busy at the time. I was still working, you know, had a family, and it was Very structured.

Jennifer Keahl [00:05:01]:
I also loved that there was a networking opportunity. So the MBA program was a hybrid program where we did the residency on campus, and we had the opportunity to network with other MBA students, and I love that opportunity. And it also gave me the flexibility to do my studies at home at during the times when I needed to do work at late hours the night or early hours of the morning.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:25]:
Now every student that goes into a graduate degree ends up having to definitely transition. And There's a definite way in which you are educated as an undergraduate student, and that is not always the same as when you are a graduate student. The expectations are different. The type of coursework is different. The rigor of the coursework is different. And there is a transition that you have to go through To find that groove, find that ability for yourself to find success. Talk to me about that transition for you and how it went, And what did you have to do to be able to find that success for yourself at the beginning, but then what did you have to do to also Maintain that success throughout your entire time through the MBA.

Jennifer Keahl [00:06:12]:
It takes a lot of discipline. So you have to prioritize, And you have to make it a priority. And if that meant that I was, doing homework in the morning, you know, before work, Then I was doing that. And, again, I was very fortunate in that it was immediately applicable. So a lot of the the, case studies or Projects, I was able to use directly from my experiences at my current and future positions. So, yeah, like I said, it just takes a lot of discipline, a lot of prioritization, and not being afraid to ask for help if you need it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:47]:
Now I know that You are a franchise owner of StretchLab in Clarkston, Michigan. For those that don't know what StretchLab is, why don't you tell me more about that? And then The other piece that I really have an interest in is really reflecting on thinking back to this education that you went through through the MBA. How do you find that the that the work that you're doing with StretchLab connects to the learning that you did through the MBA?

Jennifer Keahl [00:07:16]:
Oh, that's a great question. So I'll start with your first question. StretchLab is a boutique fitness brand owned by the parent company, Exponential Fitness. So StretchLab is 1 on 1 assisted stretching. You might compare it to something similar as, like, physical therapy or massage, But it's not. It is just simply 1 on 1 assisted stretching. It was invented in California by a personal trainer whose clients kept requesting longer assisted Stretching at the end of their training workouts, and it got to the point where the clients just wanted to be stretched the entire time. And that's how StretchLab was born.

Jennifer Keahl [00:07:51]:
Exponential Fitness bought the StretchLab Studio in 2017 and then began franchising. And now there are over 400 Locations open worldwide. My studio was the 5th to open in Michigan. So opening a franchise and opening any business, The skills and the knowledge and and what I learned from my MBA program was absolutely invaluable. There were so many classes that were beneficial, and some of my favorites were the organizational leadership classes. Doctor Bloom's classes were some of my favorite, And it's because it takes some of those softer skills. So the accounting and the financial and maybe some of the other, you know, harder skills, You may not be doing that hands on. But as a leader in the organization, you need to be able to communicate.

Jennifer Keahl [00:08:41]:
You need to be able to Show some of these softer skills in all facets of the business from your employees to your members and even when you're networking In in the community.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:51]:
I really appreciate you sharing that because I think that, you know, understanding that there will be both hard skills and soft Skills that you're going to be learning in your program is important, and you might not always realize what you're learning until after the fact and you reflect Back on that because, you know, the programs are going to, a lot of times, focus on those hard skills, but along the way, they're spattering in the soft skills And things that you're going to need to know about working with people and being able to lead people and those interpersonal, Intercultural dynamics that happen within any type of situation. As you think back to your experience, Were there specific situations in your MBA that you've that you can point back to right now that really prepared you for those soft skills for working with people in that way?

Jennifer Keahl [00:09:41]:
There were several. There were some of the values assessments and personality assessments that we took that really helped me become more self aware, and there were also some of the operational exercises. There was a little field exercise that We did. And it really taught you that it's more than just the operations behind the scenes. You really have To appeal and be empathetic and understand your employees and your customers and your community, it's Probably the most difficult part for individuals, and so those exercises I think were invaluable for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:20]:
Well, Jennifer, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing all of this, For sharing your own journey. As you think about the experiences that you had in graduate school that prepared you well for the that prepared you well for what you're doing right now as you think back to the things that you learned along the way. Is there any advice that you would give to others that are thinking about graduate School that would help them to find success sooner.

Jennifer Keahl [00:10:44]:
You know, I loved the graduate school program. I would highly recommend the program. I I think that my advice would be to go for it. I think sometimes people wait for some perfect moment in time, and There's never a perfect moment. You have to find that perfect moment and go for it, and then find your passion and apply it. You can apply this MBA program to any business out there, to anything you want to do. It's beneficial for life in general. So that would be my advice would be to go for it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:16]:
Well, again, thank you, Jennifer, so much for sharing your story today, and I wish you all the best.

Jennifer Keahl [00:11:21]:
Thanks, Chris.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:22]:
The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a Victor in Grad School. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

The transition from undergraduate to graduate school can be challenging and daunting, especially for first-generation college students. In this blog post, we will delve into the experiences of Quion Wheeler, a detective and school resource officer with the Pontiac School District, who pursued a master's degree in public administration at the University of Michigan's Rackham Graduate School. Quion's journey reflects the struggles, triumphs, and valuable lessons learned through the transition from undergraduate to graduate education.

First-Generation College Experience

Quion shares that he was a first-generation college student, and the pressure to pursue higher education was significant. His undergraduate experience at the University of Michigan Flint began with struggles and a lack of academic confidence. However, the desire to fulfill his parents' aspirations and prove himself as a capable student motivated him to overcome these challenges. This reflects the common experience of many first-generation college students who face unique obstacles as they navigate the unfamiliar terrain of higher education.

Transition to Graduate School

When Quion decided to pursue his graduate studies, he emphasized that it was a decision motivated by personal goals rather than external pressures. This shift in motivation demonstrates the evolution of his educational journey, transitioning from fulfilling the expectations of others to investing in himself and his future. The transition from undergraduate to graduate school requires a shift in mindset, and Quion's experience highlights the importance of recognizing one's personal aspirations and making decisions that align with individual goals.

Preparing for Success in Graduate School

Quion's journey reflects the significance of preparation and focus in achieving success in graduate school. He highlights the pivotal role of mentorship, academic advising, and building strong connections in facilitating academic growth and success. His dedication to academic improvement, demonstrated through earning higher grades and seeking out support systems, underscores the determination required to excel in graduate-level coursework. Furthermore, Quion's proactive approach in establishing study groups and utilizing available resources emphasizes the importance of resilience and perseverance in navigating the demands of graduate education.

Choosing the Right Graduate Program

In selecting a graduate program, Quion's decision to pursue public administration stemmed from his aspiration for leadership roles within his professional domain of law enforcement. His rationale for choosing a program aligned with his career aspirations exemplifies the significance of strategic decision-making in pursuing graduate education. Additionally, the influence of mentors and existing networks in his decision-making process emphasizes the value of seeking guidance and leveraging existing support systems when evaluating graduate program options.

Integration of Graduate Learning in Professional Practice

Quion's experience in graduate school not only equipped him with theoretical knowledge but also instilled strategic planning skills, which he has integrated into his professional journey. His ability to apply the principles of strategic planning to address challenges in law enforcement and education underscores the practical relevance of graduate education in shaping professional capabilities and problem-solving acumen. This exemplifies the transferability of graduate learning into real-world contexts, emphasizing the holistic impact of advanced education on professional development.

Advice for Prospective Graduate Students

Reflecting on his journey, Quion offers valuable advice for prospective graduate students. He emphasizes the significance of conducting thorough research to align educational pursuits with long-term career objectives. His encouragement for individuals to consider the practical applicability of their graduate degrees and to develop a comprehensive career plan underscores the importance of intentional decision-making and foresight in pursuing advanced education.

Conclusion

Quion Wheeler's journey from undergraduate to graduate school and into his professional career exemplifies the transformative impact of higher education for first-generation college students. His experiences underscore the value of resilience, strategic decision-making, and proactive preparation in transitioning to and succeeding in graduate education. Aspiring graduate students can draw inspiration from Quion's narrative, utilizing his insights to navigate their own journeys and strive for success in their pursuit of advanced education.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:
Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]:
Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host doctor Christopher Lewis, Director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back today. Every week, I love being able to talk to you, to sit down with you, to Walk through this journey that you're on as you're either thinking about graduate school, going through graduate school, looking at that light at the end of the tunnel as you're preparing to graduate from graduate school. You know, this show is all about helping you find success in that journey. And I love being able to walk with you on because I know that everybody's journey is just a little bit different, and it's important. It's important to talk about these issues, may help you to think about things that you might not have thought about before and also learn from other people because the best way that you can Prepare yourself is to talk to others that have gone before you. And every week, I am so happy to be able to bring you different guests that have done just that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:07]:
This week, we've got another great guest. Keon Wheeler is with us today, and Keon is a detective and school resource officer with the Pontiac School District. And he did his undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint and then ended up going and getting a master's degree in public administration through the Rackham Graduate School at the University of Michigan, and we're gonna talk to him about his own experiences. Keon, thanks so much for being here today.

Quion Wheeler [00:01:36]:
No problem. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:38]:
It is my pleasure. I am really excited to be able to chat with you. And One of the first things that I love to do is be able to really turn things back in time. And I know that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, And at some point, while you were in that undergraduate degree, as you were graduating, as you're moving Into that 1st professional role, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to continue your education. Talk to me about what was going through your head and what what were those reasons that made you choose that you wanted to continue and get that graduate degree?

Quion Wheeler [00:02:11]:
So in all honesty, Starting my undergrad experience, I was a 1st generation college student. So, like, graduating high school, There was a lot of pressure in terms of, like, what the next step would be. I knew that if I applied myself, I knew that I would do well. But I knew, like, how important it was for my my parents to see me go to college. So in the beginning of my college experience. I struggle a lot, and I think I I would attribute a lot of those feelings to just not feeling confident enough. But once I figured out that I could perform just as well as the, the other students, I was able to kinda shift in a gear. So I told myself that my undergrad degree was for my parents because it was so important to them to see their children attend school and graduate.

Quion Wheeler [00:03:05]:
So when I decided to go into my graduate studies, I honestly didn't have, like, a Professional plan because that time went by so fast. But I knew, and I had decided at that time, that I wanted to do something for myself, And that's how I I stumbled upon the horse riding graduate program, and I and I took up, public administration.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:28]:
So you talk about the fact that your undergraduate degree was for your parents, that your graduate degree was for you, And that you, as a 1st generation college student, you kinda had to figure things out for yourself, and I'm sure that as you continued on, you continue to be a 1st generation college student, whether you're an undergraduate student or you're a graduate student and you're still trying to figure things out along the way. So talk to me a little bit about that transition, that transition that you had to go through as you were Looking at graduate school and trying to make sure that you're going to be prepared for that next step Because going from undergraduate to graduate work is definitely a little bit different. So what did you have to do to prepare yourself To get yourself in the right either mental space or or space in general that would allow for you to be able to be successful in that next step for your education.

Quion Wheeler [00:04:24]:
So, obviously, my 1st 2 years of undergrad, I struggle Just for, like, focus and, you know, what class to take, I know I had to I ended up having to retake some classes. So by the time I got to my junior year From undergrad, I was pretty much laser focused. Like, I at that point, I I had a couple mentors. I have been well versed in, like, academic advising. I went to, like, my department at the time, which was, you know, criminal justice, and I was able to make some solid connections on what classes I need, what classes I didn't need. So from my junior year up until I graduated undergrad, I was really locked in. I mean, I was getting 3.4 is 5. I was passing all my classes with flying colors.

Quion Wheeler [00:05:09]:
So when I decided to go to grad school, I knew that I had be, if not as focused, a little bit more focused, but I was already prepared because at that point, I was committed to doing well. So When I got accepted into the graduate program, I was admitted on a probationary status because my Akeem wasn't quite a 3 point o, so that just kinda lets you know, like, how much work I had to do to kinda build up from 1st to sophomore to junior year to get there, but my transcript shows so much development, and, obviously, I had some great recommendation letters. So when I was first admitted, they told me that I couldn't get lower than, like, a b plus in all of my classes. So that was, like, motivation. Because I was like, you know, I've done this. You know, I've done this in grad school. I've kinda I mean, in undergrad, I've been fine to us. So now it's just time to really Buckle down and and focus on what it is that that I wanna do, and and I never got below a 3 in grad school.

Quion Wheeler [00:06:17]:
And I was really proud of that because, again, when I started college, I didn't have that that academic confidence. But then I have proved myself to be proficient in things that I wasn't quite proficient in undergrad, so that's really how I would be here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:31]:
So you chose to go to the Rackham Graduate School for, you know, a public administration degree. Talk to me about that decision, and what made you decide that that's not only the right school for you, but the right program for you?

Quion Wheeler [00:06:47]:
So I've always felt like a leader in the things that I've done academically or even in my extracurricular activity. So when I thought, like, Public administration, I saw, like, leadership grows. You know? So, obviously, going into law enforcement, I thought that a public administration degree would Go, Will, if I decided I wanted to become a director of security or chief of police or At one point, I was very interested in in juvenile probation, and I thought that having a public administration degree Along with law enforcement experience would allow me to kinda, like, catapult to some of those positions. So that was my original thinking, And I didn't want to get a criminal justice administration degree because I already had an undergrad. I just didn't really see the purpose of just getting 2 degrees in the same thing. So I decided to just go general program instead of picking, like, a, Like a specific concentration because I I just didn't wanna pigeonhole myself. So that's why I chose, like, public administration because I At the time and even still now, I see myself in in more of a a a leadership capacity, and that's why I chose department administration.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:05]:
And was there a specific reason that you chose to go to the University of Michigan Rackham Graduate School for that program versus deciding to go to another program?

Quion Wheeler [00:08:16]:
I was already well established on campus. I had some I had already developed a a really solid network, And I was comfortable. You know? I was working on campus with the educational opportunity initiatives. I was already doing the work, so It just felt like the right move. And I knew one of my mentors had actually graduated from the program, and so he gave me some good information or how how the program benefited him, and that's pretty much how I decided to go forward with him.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:46]:
Now I mentioned the fact that When you go from undergraduate to graduate school, there is a difference. There's a difference in the way the the professors teach. There's a difference in the requirements and the expectations that faculty have on students themselves, and you have to prepare yourself A little bit differently for the classes that you're in and for the rigor of the program that you're in as well. What did you have to do to Set yourself up for success as you entered into the program, and what did you have to do to maintain that success as you went through the program and eventually got to to graduation.

Quion Wheeler [00:09:25]:
Initially, I realized, like, in my 1st class, that I was, like, amongst one of the younger students in the classroom. Like, a lot of my classmates Had already been working in their professions for decades or more. So this was just more so, like, the degree to Push them into more managerial roles or whatever it was. So for me, I had to just kinda establish a group of of people that I can, you know, relate to. And so what I did was I was always friendly and easygoing, so I connected with students who were kinda focused on the same thing, some of the students who were maybe, like, 1, 2 years out of undergrad, and we We develop, like, study groups or focus groups for, like, certain classes, and I would dedicate most of my weekends, I would go to The Riverfront, they had a a new computer lab there, and I would spend maybe 4 to 5 hours, you know, every other Sunday, depending on what the workload is, and and it would be myself along with the study group. And we would just focus on whatever assignments that we had, just Kinda like compare strategies to make sure that we were meeting the criteria. I really just took time to really thoroughly understand the assignments. And if I had questions.

Quion Wheeler [00:10:40]:
You know, obviously, I reached out to the professors and just to make sure that I was doing what was required. So I gave up a lot of time, and I knew that it would be tedious, but I was focused. So really just developing those study groups, Making relationships with people in my class. Just kinda getting out of my comfort zone, asking questions, not being afraid of not knowing the answer. Really kinda like knowing What you don't know because for a lot of us, even though we were in different positions in life given our age or professions, you know, we still were trying to obtain a degree. So I just try to stay on top of my assignments and and keep things there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:19]:
Completely understand that. And sometimes having to Keep up on things, especially as it's being kind of dumped on you. It gets challenging, it gets stressful, and you have to manage that stress in different ways. Now you've continued your career. You've finished up that graduate degree, and you continued on. You're working for the Pontiac Schools right now. And as you look back at your graduate degree and you think about what you learned in that graduate degree, how do you feel that the graduate degree prepared you for the work that you have done since graduating.

Quion Wheeler [00:11:55]:
One of my final assignments, Like, I came up with, like, a strategic plan for the job that I was working at during my time in in grad schools. So, obviously, like, the theme of that strategic plan was my ideology along with some statistics on how the program could run efficiently or run more efficiently. So I I've I've kinda always been in that mindset of, like, strategic planning, like, since I've left the University of Michigan Flint and navigating into law enforcement. Alright? So I've had An opportunity to work for the Flint police department where I worked there for 4 years, and there were a lot of challenges On a community level, on a department level. And so I will always find myself going back to that Strategic planning mindset of, like, if I were to become in a position to implement change, where would I begin? So one of the big focal points for me was, At that time, it was like manpower. Like, we really we really struggle with keeping officers in the city of Flint, And the turnover rate was super high because of the call volume and, obviously, just, like, the manpower shortage, so it was kinda like spinning your wheel all the time. And now I come out to where I work for the Oakland County Sheriff's Office now, and it's a large agency. And it's just way more opportunities.

Quion Wheeler [00:13:22]:
It's way more people. But in my role as a school resource officer, Obviously, I can identify, like, the challenges, like, within the school system as it relates to kids and literacy and different things like that. So my mind naturally goes to, you know, how can I fix this? And that's kinda, like, One of the skills that I developed in grad school, like, due to that process is thinking of, you know, from a manager or a supervisory standpoint, strategic planning, just How do you work and and help people realize that we're all on the same team trying to reach the same goal? Like, it's just that's kinda like where my mindset has Staying since then.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:03]:
Now you've given a number of piece of advice and a number of things that that you have learned in the journey that you went through yourself. As you look back at your graduate education, what are some tips that you might want to offer to others that are considering graduate school that'll help them find success sooner.

Quion Wheeler [00:14:22]:
If you are pondering the idea of going to grad school, I would say be sure. You know? Like, actually take time to research programs. I didn't really do much research. Like, I I just knew that I wanted to go to horse rack. I'm, like, just considering The information that I received from several people before, and it just felt like the right fit. But if there was something that I could go back and do I probably would have taken more time as a young professional just to kinda figure out where I wanted to fit, like, Professionally overall. Because now I'm in I'm in this limbo. Right? So I've I've had my graduate degree since 2015, and I'm in a space where I'm like, Man, am I really using my degree? Because I'm in a unionized position, so it's not like I'm getting more pay for having a master's versus a person with, like, a high school diploma in this particular profession.

Quion Wheeler [00:15:13]:
So I would encourage students to take more time to see how they can maximize On their degree, depending on, like, what career field they choose to get into. Now I I definitely think that having my MPA has made me More marketable because that's not a common trend for law enforcement officers to be well educated. So I think it works there, but really just taking that time to think about what it is that you wanna do and how it It's in 5 year plan, a 10 year plan. Like, that's not something that I really did. It was like, okay. I graduated undergrad. Like, what's next? Okay. I don't have a what's next, so let me go to school.

Quion Wheeler [00:15:54]:
And I think sometimes people get caught up in that, and sometimes it works, and sometimes it don't. I don't regret it. Like, I'm I'm very thankful for my experience, and I'm very proud of myself for the things that I've accomplished today. But if I could just suggest Those few things, that's what I would suggest.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:11]:
Well, Kean, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today. Thank you for your willingness To explore this with me and to share your experiences and things that you've learned along the way because I know it's going to help others in so many different ways, And I wish you all the best.

Quion Wheeler [00:16:26]:
Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:27]:
The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing here in education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, Email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

Graduate school is a challenging yet rewarding journey that demands determination, resilience, and a passion for learning. In this blog post, we'll delve into the insightful conversation between Dr. Christopher Lewis and Dr. John Long, a senior lecturer in engineering at Deakin University in Australia. Dr. Long shares his remarkable journey through graduate school, offering valuable advice and insights for current and aspiring grad students.

The Decision to Pursue Graduate Education

Dr. Long's journey began with an unexpected opportunity that presented itself during his undergraduate years at the University of Michigan Flint. After spending time at Monash University in Melbourne as part of a physics study program, the idea of pursuing a PhD was planted in his mind. Despite initial uncertainties, Dr. Long seized the opportunity and embarked on a transformative journey that eventually led him to a successful career in academia.

Navigating the PhD Experience

Transitioning from a bachelor's degree to a PhD program comes with a set of unique challenges. Dr. Long candidly shares his experience of feeling unprepared and unqualified, highlighting the difficulties he faced during his PhD journey. He emphasizes the importance of persistence, stating that success in the program was more about perseverance than sheer brilliance. His insight into the realities of PhD life, particularly the "dark times," where challenges seemed insurmountable, provides a realistic perspective for current students facing similar struggles.

Setting Up for Success

One of the key takeaways from Dr. Long's journey is the significance of early preparation and goal-setting. He stresses the importance of working closely with supervisors to articulate a clear research question, reflecting on the time he spent hammering out his own question. His advice to get things going early aligns with the idea that a well-defined research question serves as a guiding light throughout the graduate journey.

Overcoming Hurdles and Maintaining Motivation

Dr. Long recounts the moments when he hit a "dark time" during his PhD, emphasizing the need for self-motivation and resilience. Engaging in rigorous research, constantly reading and learning from research papers, and receiving support from fellow students were instrumental in his journey. Additionally, personal motivations, such as not wanting to return without a PhD, and the support of friends and family, served as driving forces during challenging times.

The Importance of Graduation and Mentorship

After completing his PhD, Dr. Long initially contemplated not participating in the graduation ceremony. However, he emphasizes the significance of celebrating this significant achievement, underscoring the culmination of years of hard work. Furthermore, he shares a heartwarming anecdote about the cyclical nature of mentorship, recounting how his mentor, Dr. Trevor, inspired him and others while celebrating his own academic achievements.

Conclusion

Dr. Long's journey through graduate school serves as a testament to the resilience, dedication, and support systems that contribute to success in academia. His advice to current and future grad students emphasizes the importance of persistence, proactive goal-setting, and the celebration of milestones. Navigating the challenges of graduate education requires a combination of determination, ongoing support, and the willingness to seek guidance. Dr. Long's story exemplifies the transformative power of education and mentorship, inspiring others to navigate their own graduate journeys with tenacity and optimism. In conclusion, the conversation between Dr. Long and Dr. Lewis provides a wealth of insights and advice for anyone pursuing or considering graduate education. The challenges and triumphs shared by Dr. Long offer invaluable wisdom to those navigating the often-daunting landscape of higher education.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:
Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]:
Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host doctor Christopher Lewis, Director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to sit down and talk to you and work with you as you go through this journey that you're on. And I say journey intentionally because it is a journey. For some of you, it may be directly going from undergraduate to graduate work. Some of you may go to work first and then decide at some point that, you know what, I'm gonna Keep going with my education. And for others, it may be some a completely different type of journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:46]:
And that's why it's so important that every week that I have this opportunity to talk to you because there's many ways in which you can end up in grad school. But when you're in grad school, you wanna find success. And that's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests, guests that have gone before you, that have done graduate work At many different universities in many different areas that can talk about what it took for them to find success in that journey for themselves. This week, we've got another great guest with us. John Long is with us. And John is a senior lecturer in engineering at Deakin University In Australia, in, in Geelong, in Victoria, Australia. So really excited to be able to have him here today, to have him share his own journey with you and to be a guest on the show. John, thanks so much for being here.

Dr. John Long [00:01:38]:
Chris, thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:40]:
It is my pleasure. Love being able to have you here to Talk a little bit about your journey. I know you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint. And at some point in that journey, whether it be right in undergrad or after right After undergrad, you made a decision. You made a decision to continue your education at Monash University And worked on a doctorate degree. So let's turn the clock back. Talk to me about what was going through your head, and what made you decide that you wanted to go to get that graduate degree.

Dr. John Long [00:02:12]:
Well, in a nutshell, it was simply an opportunity presented itself that I couldn't refuse. So part of the U of M Flint honors program, I spent a few months in 1986 at Monash University in Melbourne doing some work in X-ray. So that was part of a physics study program through the U of M Flint honors program, and I had tremendous time. A tremendous it was a tremendous experience for me and Clearly life changing. And after I completed the project and had graduated, so I graduated in 1987, basically, my academic supervisor Sir, in Melbourne, a fellow named Trevor Finlayson started dropping hints. So what if you, came back here and did a PhD with me? And at the time, I'd finished at U of M Flint. I was working full time at the AC spark plug engineering area over on, Davidson Road, I think it is. And I had really no intention of doing so, but Another has become a a lifetime colleague of mine sent me the PhD scholarship applications and said, here, fill these out and get them back to us quick.

Dr. John Long [00:03:09]:
This would have been October of 1987. So having nothing to lose, I filled them out and sent them back. And, this is all snail Well, in those days, got a couple of referees or references, so I think doctor Larry King might have been one of them. He was a mathematics professor that I Worked with for a little while and a few others. So I sent the applications in, and my supervisor called me on the telephone in November and said, I have a scholarship here for you. Do you want it? And it was a a 3 year full PhD scholarship. And for an American coming out only with an undergraduate degree, this is unheard of. But in Australia, that was pretty common that you would have, a good student who completes a 4 year undergraduate degree with honors.

Dr. John Long [00:03:47]:
In those days, it was common for them too if they were good. And if the supervisor was prepared to take them on, they could go straight to a PhD program, and I was PICT is one of those. So I went back to U of M Flint, and I talked to the various professors around the physics department, the mathematics department. I spoke to, my colleagues and bosses at AC Sparkplug, and they all said this opportunity is too good to turn down. Go. And finally, the day after Christmas, I asked my mother, and I asked her if I could go because she was recently widowed. We we lost my father that year, and so I asked my mother on the day after Christmas, Mom, I've got this scholarship opportunity. Here it is in my lap.

Dr. John Long [00:04:25]:
What do I do with it? And she said, off you go. So that was the final tick of approval. So I packed up my life Roughly March of 1988 and shipped off to Australia for what was meant to be about 3 years, and it wound up being more like thirty 5 years, and I'm still here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:40]:
Now you made that jump. You went ended up going to a foreign country, and you had been there before in that In a foreign country, to be able to be educated, but you transitioned into from a bachelor's degree to a PH which, again, very different in the way that you are taught, but also the expectations, the way that you are assessed. Lots of difference in regards to the complete outcome of the degree and what you're going to be expected to do. So you went through that experience, but you found success in that experience as well. You graduated, ended up finishing up. And as you Transitioned into that PhD, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success? But what did you have to also do to maintain that success Throughout the entire PhD experience.

Dr. John Long [00:05:32]:
Before I left, I had a long chat with a couple of people. Professor So Larry King spent some time with me to say, well, this is what graduate school is really like, kid. And I spent a fair bit of time with one of the physics professors, doctor Mary Cox, also a A long time staff member, EFM Flint in my day, and she was my local supervisor for my 4th year honors project. She spent a fair bit of time. And among other things, she gave me a long list of books. I said, okay. If you're gonna be studying physics and material science at the graduate level, any of these, and we wrote them all down and I went and bought them all, and they're not part of my professional library. But anyhow, Those 2 in particular spend their time with me to sort of say, this is what you're up against.

Dr. John Long [00:06:09]:
This is what you're up for, kid. And then, well, I got there, and how do I put it? I certainly wasn't prepared for it. I probably wasn't even qualified for it, to be quite honest. In hindsight, I probably would not have taken myself on, but I got there and found myself Really thrown in the deep end. I mean, I was thrown in the deep end, sink or swim kinda thing. And, boy, it was hard. It was extremely hard. It took me 6 years To complete the PhD, maybe by American standards, that's pretty normal, particularly somebody coming straight out from undergraduate.

Dr. John Long [00:06:39]:
Bypassing master's completely, 6 years isn't bad. And in those days, your typical candidature for a PhD in at least in physics or the sciences was up to 10 years, And 6 years was relatively average. Your normal PhD scholarship in those days ran for 3 years Up to three and a half if you got an extension, so that's typical now too. So I should just go for 3, three and a half years. I can it took me 6 years To get through mine, it was pretty typical. Certainly, it wasn't the shortest of my colleagues who completed PhDs. I wasn't the longest either. I was kind of in the middle there somewhere.

Dr. John Long [00:07:15]:
And I also had a number of colleagues who, quite frankly, were smarter than me, who did not complete the PhD. He stayed down for 10 years, This is a really good work, but simply couldn't write a thesis. And in the end, I know of at least a couple who, unfortunately, who were booted out of the program after 10 years and Multiple extensions because they simply couldn't write up, which is unfortunate. That that was sad because some of those guys helped me when I was early on. So in my case, The fact that I completed a PhD and it's pretty respectable PhD in Australia, Monash is certainly in the top 10 universities in Australia as Far as research funding and outputs and all that are concerned, my doing it, in my view, was more a matter of persistence than a brilliance. Put it that way. I just doggedly stuck to it and wouldn't quit even though I thought about it multiple times, and eventually, I figured it out. Interestingly enough, doctor Cox told me that in her experience, she said, once you figure out what you're doing, if you get into an experimental PhD, Which is what I did.

Dr. John Long [00:08:13]:
The actual data collection will only take you about 6 weeks. 6, 8 weeks is what she told me. You'll collect all the data that winds up in your thesis In 6 to 8 weeks, even though that might be spread out over a number of years, and she was dead right. She was absolutely dead right. The actual data that wound up in my thesis That got me over the line with the examiners, was collected in about 6 weeks, and one whole chapter, which was photographic micrographs, One whole chapter was devoted to optical microscopy. I shot all those photos in 1 night, and that was my 3rd attempt. Took 3 goes to get it right. And eventually, I thought, right, this is what I have to do to get these photos correct.

Dr. John Long [00:08:51]:
And it also meant collecting them all in one setting. So I did it in an overnight run so that I I would have the lab to myself, and I wouldn't have the door opening and closing all the time. Shaking the microscope when the door slammed. Yeah. I saw she was dead right. All the data that went into my thesis That was useful while I end up I clicked it in about 6 to 8 weeks.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:07]:
So I know that now you work with graduate students at your university As you're teaching them, but also working with them on their own research, as you are working with young graduate students and they're They're walking in and and you're giving them advice. What's the advice that you're giving them in trying to help them to find success Early on and throughout their graduate school journey.

Dr. John Long [00:09:30]:
Well, I certainly push them to get things going early. One of the most important things that in a PhD program anyways, Do you have to come up with early on the pace? I mean, once you do a a literature review and find out what everybody else have been doing on the particular topic at hand, you have to come up with your research Question. So one of my difficulties in my PhD was it took a long time to hammer out the research question. And once I did, I knew what I had to do, and I did it. Tell I tell graduate students to work out their research question as early on as possible if the student is lucky enough to be attached to a research grant. So sometimes professor will will will get a research grant, and a scholarship will come with it. In my view, those students are are the lucky ones Because a research grad comes with a research question. There's a research question that the that the that the researcher wants to wants to answer, And then, you know, the government or the funding body gives them the money to to do the work.

Dr. John Long [00:10:24]:
So if you have that, I would tell the students, well, first of all, Get your hands on the grant application that your supervisor wrote to get the money that pays your scholarship and read it and find out what's in the head of your supervisor. And that'll make life a 1000000000 times easier to work out what the research question is. If you're given now what I was, like, a generic scholarship so I I had a generic Scholarships. So I had to think of my own research question after being given kind of a vague topic by my supervisor. That was harder. But then you have to spend a lot of time with your supervisor to Really hammer out what is the research question. Once you've got the research question worked out, then you've got focus and you have a direction. Another thing I've noticed with with most PhD students, The research goes up and down, and a lot of students nowadays in engineering, the research would accompany would would be accompanied by a great deal of Theoretical modeling, and there are some brilliant modeling tools out there, computer modeling tools that they're used in science and engineering.

Dr. John Long [00:11:21]:
And so a lot of PhD research these days begins with computer modeling. It often produces publications pretty quickly, and that's great. Then the student will go and try to replicate the modeling with experimentation. Experimentation is a totally different beast. Experimentation is things that don't work. It's the real world. And so I have to spend a bit of time preparing the student for life in the lab where, again, you might have to do an experiment 3 times before you get it right, Well, you might have to do a chemical preparation 3 or 4 times until you get the purity correct, and it actually replicates what other people have published. That sort of thing can be very discouraging to a student.

Dr. John Long [00:12:00]:
Writing up can also be very discouraging to a student if he doesn't have writing skills. It can be very difficult. So in any PhD program, or at least most of them, the student comes into what I call the dark times, Where it's kinda like a long dark tunnel and things aren't going well. I had that for a good 3 years. I had this long dark tunnel where I had one failed experiment after another, and I was Terribly discouraged, but something basically happened about halfway through that I got a a vote of approval from the department head. And then I decided, well, if the Department head believes in me, then I better believe in myself. So I'll keep on going until I finish this thing. I'm thrown out, but I won't quit.

Dr. John Long [00:12:35]:
I talk to PhD students, particularly the ones who are finding things difficult either in the lab or relationships with supervisors or other staff members or whatever, Lots of reasons. I tell them that story, and I know that it certainly has helped at least a couple of, a couple of students that I've worked with over the years who now have PhDs. So I simply say, look. You make a decision. I'm either gonna finish this thing, whatever it takes, or I'll be thrown out, but I certainly won't quit. That was one of my bigger decisions that I made About halfway through my time as a PhD student. Once I figured out the research questions and hammered all them out and finally got the my supervisor to say, yep. If you answer these questions, you'll have a PhD.

Dr. John Long [00:13:13]:
I submitted about 2 years later. So once I had direction and knew what I had to do, Then I got the job done.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:19]:
And there will be dark times. I agree with you. I mean, no matter if you're in a PhD program or working on a thesis For the masters, there's always gonna be that proverbial wall that you'll hit that you need to kind of stick to it, like you said earlier, and Be willing to know that you're just gonna have to overcome those hurdles. And what did you have to do when you hit that dark time that that, you know, hit that wall per se to be able to push past it, to be able to get over it, to be able to push yourself to the finish line.

Dr. John Long [00:13:53]:
Well, I still didn't really wanna come home to the United States without a PhD. Put it that way. You know? In other words, sort of coming home a disgrace. You didn't wanna do that. I had a girlfriend at that stage, and we ended up getting married, And that was a motivating factor. The dark time were before that, I just doggedly stuck to the task at hand. That's all I can really say about That I just dragged myself into into my lab every day and just kept that. I went through research paper after research paper after research paper, And it took a few years to learn how to read a research paper.

Dr. John Long [00:14:22]:
The 1st research papers I read, well, you have to read them 5 times before you figure out what they're on about. But again, doing it over and over and over and over and over again. Eventually, I figured out how to read them. And, of course, by the time I submitted my thesis, I could read a research paper in my field. In one read, I knew what the guys were doing and why. That was great, but that was a skill that I had to learn. I guess I also had the support of my fellow students because we all had similar kinds of journeys. Some people finished a lot faster than me.

Dr. John Long [00:14:49]:
Some people didn't finish at all.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:51]:
Well, John, I just wanna say thank you for sharing that. It it's definitely important for people to understand that any of graduate school is not Always going to be easy. There's going to be challenges. There's going to be things you're going to have to overcome. It could be a class. It could be research. It could be lots of different things. Life gets in the way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:09]:
There's lots of things that happen that you have to be able to balance and be able to, as John said, overcome To be able to get to that prize at the end, that diploma that you hold. Yeah. You know, if you're working on the PhD, the hood that you get given and get hooded at the end. The piece of paper, you know, of the research, you know, when you get to the end and you have that research done, and then you can share that.

Dr. John Long [00:15:34]:
When I submitted and passed, I think I was probably pretty typical. I was tired. I was a bit angry, exhausted by the whole thing. And I remember saying at the time when I submitted, I'm not going through graduation. And I think it's a good thing that the examination of a thesis takes 6 months because it gives you time to to to to cool off a little bit. So I submitted in April of 1994, And my examiner reports came back in September and took about a month to do the changes. And by the end of November, I had the Stamped from the university PhD committee, yes, she passed. We didn't have an oral examination in those days.

Dr. John Long [00:16:11]:
They do now, but it was strictly written thesis At Monash in those days because very often, at least 1 examiner was overseas. So I had 1 examiner in Germany, so he couldn't come in person to do an oral examination. Anyhow, graduation was, I think, Following April. And so Monash University contacted me early in 1995. Here, fill out this form for graduation. I went, Okay. I'll go. Very much glad I did.

Dr. John Long [00:16:34]:
And what I tell PhD students now when they submit, I tell them you will go to graduation. You will walk across that stage, and you will wear, we call it, the floppy hat. It's about being hooded, so you will wear the floppy hat. This is important for you. It's important for your family, and this is the the conclusion of 4 to 6 years of extremely hard work. We've got to celebrate this. And I had a PhD student a couple of years ago. When he he graduated and finished during COVID, the university suspended graduation ceremonies for a couple About 3 years.

Dr. John Long [00:17:04]:
And so he didn't have a graduation ceremony per se. We had this thing called grads on the green. So we we, we went in an outside venue, put up tents, and celebrated graduation that way, and diplomas were sent out by post. But at least we got together outside on a COVID safe setting, and we could at least, you know, take photos and and and celebrate with our with our students. And I remembered that particular Student, I tried to lay his graduation. I said, just wait till the next ceremony so we can do it properly. And he waited as long as Couldn't and no. He couldn't couldn't wait any longer.

Dr. John Long [00:17:39]:
So we had a grads on the green with him as well. But to me, it's very, very important to go through that graduation ceremony. Now I'll tell you something else. My supervisor, who is getting on years now, but he's still in the game. He retired from Monash a long time ago. Now he's at Melbourne University Still doing physics and material science. He's kinda become an inspiration to me to keep going myself. He sat on stage for me when I graduated.

Dr. John Long [00:18:01]:
And then fast forward 20 years or so, I sit on stage for him, and that to me was a very special experience. So he got sick. He wound up in hospital for a while. And while he was in hospital, he wrote a dissertation. And we think, yeah. That's Trevor. He wrote a a DSC thesis. He wrote a doctor of science thesis, which was the culmination of his research work over probably 30 odd years, which included the work of his PhD students, which included me.

Dr. John Long [00:18:28]:
He put it all together, and it was a big thick tome, complete it with all research papers that he got over the years, Submitted it to to Melbourne University for a DSC. He passed, and he graduated. And he rounded up the PhD students that he could which included me, and we went to a graduation ceremony in Melbourne from Melbourne University, and we sat on stage for him. That to me was is a very special experience for I'm glad that we did it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:51]:
I really appreciate you sharing that. It kinda shows the cyclical nature of mentoring relationships and and how Important those are as well. John, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for being with us today, and I wish you all the best.

Dr. John Long [00:19:07]:
Thank you for having me. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or Online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, Email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

Embarking on the journey of graduate school is a significant milestone filled with challenges and opportunities for growth. In this week's Victors in Grad School podcast we talk with Michael Weber, a retired General Motors global systems engineer, shared his insights and experiences about his transition from the workforce to graduate school. In this blog post, we will delve into Michael's journey, his decision to pursue a Master's degree in Business Administration (MBA) at the University of Michigan-Flint, his experiences balancing work, family, and education, and the valuable lessons he learned along the way. Here are key insights and tips for navigating the dynamic landscape of graduate education, based on Michael Weber's enriching conversation with Dr. Christopher Lewis.

Deciding to Pursue Graduate Education

Michael expressed three compelling reasons for his decision to pursue a master's degree. He viewed it as a means to advance his career, gain knowledge about business, and uphold his belief in lifelong learning. This underscores the importance of aligning personal and professional goals with the decision to pursue graduate education. Aspirants should introspect, identify their motivations, and consider the potential impact of advanced education on their careers and personal development.

Choosing the Right Degree Program

Michael's transition from an undergraduate degree in engineering to an MBA sheds light on the significance of selecting a degree aligned with one's interests and career aspirations. His decision was influenced by a genuine interest in business, a background in leadership, and a recognition of potential opportunities outside the field of engineering. Prospective graduate students can leverage this insight by critically evaluating their passions, analyzing industry trends, and assessing the potential value of different degree programs in relation to their career trajectories.

Selecting the Right Graduate Program

Michael's decision to pursue his MBA at the University of Michigan Flint was influenced by various factors, including proximity, program structure, and personal recommendations. This highlights the importance of considering logistical factors, alumni experiences, and program offerings when choosing a graduate school. Prospective students should carefully assess a program's curriculum, faculty expertise, networking opportunities, and potential for practical applications in their desired career paths.

Balancing Work, Family, and Education

A significant aspect of Michael's journey was the challenge of balancing work responsibilities, family commitments, and academic pursuits. His pragmatic approach involved effective time management, open communication with his family, and seeking support from his employer. This emphasizes the need for aspiring graduate students to develop robust time management skills, establish a strong support system, and communicate transparently with their employers and families as they navigate the demands of graduate education.

Adapting to a Different Learning Environment

As Michael transitioned from a science-based curriculum to a business-focused program, he encountered a shift in learning methods, faculty expectations, and academic outcomes. His experience underscores the importance of adaptability, open-mindedness, and the willingness to embrace diverse learning approaches when stepping into a new academic domain. Prospective graduate students should prepare for an adaptive learning experience, assimilate interdisciplinary knowledge, and be receptive to new methods of inquiry and analysis.

The Impact of Graduate Education on Career Growth

Following the completion of his MBA, Michael observed significant personal and professional growth. His enhanced confidence, refined leadership skills, and expanded network paved the way for career progression within General Motors. This exemplifies the potential positive impact of graduate education on career advancement, skill diversification, and professional recognition. Aspirants should recognize the long-term value of graduate education in cultivating a robust skill set, expanding career opportunities, and fostering continuous personal development.

Advice for Prospective Graduate Students

Drawing from his experience, Michael offers crucial advice for individuals considering graduate education. He emphasizes the need for a clear understanding of personal goals, meticulous planning, and assessing the potential return on investment. Aspirants are encouraged to conduct thorough self-assessment, evaluate the feasibility of pursuing a graduate degree, and develop a well-defined plan that aligns with their career aspirations and personal growth objectives. Michael's emphasis on goal clarity and strategic planning serves as a valuable compass for those navigating the complexities of graduate education.

Michael Weber's journey from a seasoned engineer to a successful graduate student and, subsequently a distinguished global systems engineer at General Motors offers a wealth of insights and guidance for prospective graduate students. His experiences underscore the importance of aligning personal aspirations with educational pursuits, adapting to new learning environments, and leveraging graduate education as a catalyst for career growth and personal development. As individuals embark on the transformative journey of graduate education, they can draw inspiration from Michael's story, integrate his advice into their decision-making process, and navigate their unique paths with clarity, resilience, and purpose.

This podcast is brought to you by The Office of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan-Flint. If you're still wondering about other things to consider when it comes to graduate school, you can also contact the Office of Graduate Programs at UM-Flint. We're here to answer questions Monday – Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. EST. You can also find out more about the 50+ programs that the university has to offer here.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:

Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]:

Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host doctor Christopher Lewis, Director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love sitting down with you, being able to talk to you about The journey that you're on the journey that you're on to moving toward graduate school, moving through graduate school, moving beyond graduate school. I know that you may be in a a spot right now where you're just thinking about grad school or you could be in grad Or you could be thinking about that light at the end of the tunnel and you're almost done and ready to head off into the workforce. No matter where you are, It's so important that you find success in that journey, and that's what this podcast is all about. This podcast is all about helping you to find success in the journey that you're on. I love being able to sit down with you and being able to introduce you to people that have gone before you, that have had the opportunity to go to graduate school, have found success in that journey themselves, and they are able to share that experience with you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:17]:

Today, we've got another great guest with us. Michael Weber is with us today, and Michael is a he's a retired General Motors global systems engineer when he retired from General Motors after 45 years. And in his journey with which we're going to learn more about, he did go through his bachelor's degree at the University of Michigan and then went beyond that To get a master's degree from the University of Michigan Flint. So we're gonna talk about that journey as well. Really excited to have him here. Michael, thanks so much for being here today.

Michael Weber [00:01:51]:

My pleasure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:51]:

It is my pleasure having you here today. Love being able to hear more about your own experience. And One of the things that I love to do, 1st and foremost, is turn the clock back in time because I know that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan. And then after After going to the University of Michigan and getting that bachelor's degree in engineering, you ended up going and you Went out into the workforce, got some experience, and then after a few years, you decided, you know what? It's time. It's Time to come back to graduate school. Talk to me about what was going through your head as you were thinking about going back to school and why you decided to make that jump Into going to graduate school for yourself.

Michael Weber [00:02:34]:

Chris, thanks very much. There were probably 3 main reasons that I thought of, Why I need to go back to graduate school? My first one, I felt that earning a master's degree would actually help advance me within my career. And I had a particular interest in learning more about business and how I could be a more effective, a more Appropriate leader, if you will. And I also believe in light learning, which is something that, even after all these years, I continue to still practice today. So three reasons for going back to graduate school, and I'm happy to talk about that journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:10]:

So one of the things that I would love to hear more about is the fact that you made a choice to go from your bachelor's in engineering. And then as you said, you decided you wanted to go and get MBA, a master's of business administration. You could have gone and kept going with engineering. You could have got a MSC. You could have gotten some other degree in engineering that Would have allowed you to be able to continue down the path of honing your skills in engineering, but you as you said, you You decided to get that MBA. Talk to me about the decision to get the MBA versus another type of a degree, and what made you what were some of the linchpins that made you decide that that was the right degree for you.

Michael Weber [00:03:52]:

Well, as I mentioned, I have a, an interest in business. And there were the choices that I could have made coming out of Undergraduate staying in an engineering degree for graduate school. I think probably one of my main reasons who are not continuing with the engineering degree was that I had the foundation that I needed to ensure that I was gonna be successful in what I anticipated would be going forward in the initial years of my career. But Because I felt that I had some leadership basic skills, if you will, and that I could see myself in in a management role. And my father owned a business, so I grew up in kind of a business environment. And as I began to think about what does Mike Weber wanna do Going forward with his life, I could see that the combination of my engineering degree as an undergraduate with, balance with an MBA, if you will, Learning the business aspects, how the company ran, you know, what were all the mechanisms that kept those trains on the track. I could see that I had opportunity to be able to offer things in an area beyond just engineering. And combining those 2 together, I could see a successful future for myself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:10]:

Now I mentioned that you got your undergraduate degree at the University of Michigan and you got your Master's degree at the University of Michigan Flint. I'm sure that you had many opportunities to be able to go to many different Schools you could have chosen to go to a lot of different universities to get that masters of business administration. What was it about the University of Michigan Flint that made

Michael Weber [00:05:33]:

you decide that that was the right program for you. 1st of all, the school is local for me. It's it's within a 10 mile drive from home, So a lot of convenience from that perspective. And as you mentioned, I attended the, University of Michigan with my undergraduate degree in Ann Arbor, So I had, obviously, a previous connection with the University of Michigan. This particular program offered a nighttime degree that was only 2 days a week, and it was gonna cover 3 years, and then I was gonna be complete. I had a, a colleague at work that was already enrolled in this particular program. It was a new MBA program back in the early 19 eighties, at the University of Michigan Flint. And she spoke extremely highly of, this program that was being offered.

Michael Weber [00:06:19]:

And after talking with her and putting all those pieces together, I decided that was where I was gonna start.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:24]:

Now you mentioned that the Agree for you as a nighttime program 2 nights a week. And when you have to make that transition, you took a few years off Going from your bachelor's to your master's, you took some years off to work and get some experience. Talk to me about that transition For yourself of being able to balance now working and going to school and family life and other things, How did you balance all of that for yourself to be able to be successful in that journey for yourself?

Michael Weber [00:06:57]:

Chris, that's probably an extremely important question, and and I'm glad that I got a chance here to share that with you. So Here was my approach in thinking about that. 1st, again, you mentioned, roughly that I was 4 years into my career. So I first needed to make certain that I could still ensure that this was a priority with what I wanna be doing as a requirement of my job. Plus, as I said, 4 years out of undergraduate, I was out of that school routine. Secondly, I already had a toddler at home, And we were planning to add to the family while I was going to school, so I needed to ensure that I could manage that time that was necessary to put into the effort. 3rd, since we owned a home, there are necessary chores as any homeowner has to complete on a regular basis. And then finally, I was gonna be away twice a week that my son said time hour.

Michael Weber [00:07:49]:

So I needed to carve out time to be able to do my studies while I was home and, obviously, being away. So all of this was a balancing act, and it required understanding first with my wife, obviously, as well with my boss at work, and then just applying some solid time management to keep each of these requirements in check. Now fortunately, I have a very understanding wife. My son was very young at the time who conveniently went to bed early on the Nonschool nights, and I took naps on weekend afternoons, which is where I focused my reading and homework that needed to be accomplished. I also had a very understanding boss who supported my postgraduate efforts. And as long as I was meeting his expectations and completing all that I needed to Be asked of doing at work, then I was at least in check and okay with that. Now getting back into the study, the homework, Test preparation was probably the hardest, and there's no doubt about it. So couple other things here that I'll mention.

Michael Weber [00:08:48]:

With 6 semesters, There were 2, each for the 3 years. The 1st semester was by far the most challenged, and getting back into the school routine and adjusting my Regular life routine around school now and balancing everything else, you know, was the initial challenge. Fortunately, in the classroom, we were divided into teams of 6 students. And since we were all similar in age with similar goals and other responsibilities in life, it gave us the opportunity to easily compare notes and work with each and support each other at the same time. We also use these groups as study groups, continually checking with each other For understanding of the class material, clarification of assignments, generally helping each other to succeed overall. And I'll also note that once the 1st semester, fortunately, was completed, the rest of the 5 went much easier as I developed a pretty good routine. I had gained confidence in myself, began doing work in doing well in the program, and I was enjoying both the class material as well as my classmates. And then finally, we also had some social events.

Michael Weber [00:09:53]:

Some were coorganized by the school and others were on our own. So the camaraderie that we have developed was extremely important and obviously very helpful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:01]:

Mentioned that the 1st term was the hardest. And As you transitioned from not only being in a bachelor's degree at the University of Michigan Ann Arbor To working to now being in a graduate program in a very diff different discipline, what was the hardest part In getting your mind around studying in a different way, learning in a different way that you had to grapple with, that you had to under that you had to do to be able to find success in that graduate degree itself.

Michael Weber [00:10:42]:

I think the biggest transition in making the success rate For a graduate program for me had to be time management initially. Certainly, time management between work life balance Was already a bit of a routine. 4 years out of school, we had gotten married. Life was easy and fun at the beginning. Getting a child then along the way Offered a a new dimension of time management, but now adding that other dimension of going back to graduate school on balancing everything else that I already been balancing was by far the most challenging. And how to do that? I think that I've been blessed in my life with reasonably good time management skills. The complexity of work was increasing. And so with along with that, there were actually some, Side programs that I remember General Motors offering and helping us all work with time management in general And then having a a basic skill set of that, but it was still the overall adjustment of the intense studying, the complexity of, You know, moving away from engineering to a degree and learning accounting and and learning all these other business kinds of things was all very new.

Michael Weber [00:11:55]:

And and so there had to be a a strong focus on that first, almost to the point that you're putting some of the others, what other responsibilities subservient, but you had them still manage them all in check. You'd probably afford to to lessen up on some of those others So that you could really focus on being successful in that adjustment to the graduate program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:17]:

Now one of the things that I would love to hear from you because You made the choice to go from a very science based curriculum to a, I'm gonna say, a nonscience based Curriculum when you went from undergrad to grad. And so the way that you are taught, the way that your faculty educate you is going to be very different. The outcomes are going to be different. The expectations are going to be different. And I know you said that you had an interest in leadership, Which drew you to the MBA? Did you find that there was any other types of things that you had to do differently In the way that you thought, processed, approached the education at the graduate level because it was In such a different area?

Michael Weber [00:13:04]:

Yeah. There was some difference. But because I had that strong interest in the business aspect And I had other aspects of leadership. I I grew up in the boy scouting environment. I was a patrol leader, and I did other leadership things there. When I was in college in my undergraduate work, I was a leader on campus. I was very involved in a variety of activities And recognized as such for those leadership activities, it was more of an evolution as I was moving along through the business program That I was learning other techniques. I was testing myself against things that I had done at a younger age, against some of the new opportunities that I was being taught, And then, of course, comparing notes with other colleagues that were equally experienced in some cases as I was.

Michael Weber [00:13:51]:

And so it was a further learning experience, But at the same time, a bit of a validation along the way at the same time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:58]:

Now you completed your degree. You went back into the workforce. As you enter that workforce again after you had completed your MBA, talk to me about how that degree helped to prepare you for the work that you were doing on a day to day basis.

Michael Weber [00:14:15]:

I grew quite a bit during those postgraduate years. I gained in confidence. I was a better speaker in front of a group. Naturally, I was continuing to learn different aspects of leadership and improving in that area, and And I was a better thinker and decision maker along the way. I developed future contacts and friendships that proved useful in my career down the road. And quite frankly, I was proud of myself for completing the program in spite of the challenges that are presented. Challenges such things as learning complex subject matter, competing again in a classroom environment, needing to do well on tests, balancing the home life, particularly since our 2nd child was born Midway through the program and the grind of essentially doing 2 or you might even say 3 jobs at the same time in between homework and the graduate work. But the degree also accomplished some of the goals that I set for why I wanted to complete the degree in the 1st place.

Michael Weber [00:15:09]:

2 years following my degree, I moved into management. I was given gradually increasingly challenging work assignments. I eventually retired as a global engineering program manager, which you mentioned at the top of the broadcast here. And it was for all General Motors midsized vehicles across the globe within the body structures group, and that included significant travel and frequent exposure to top company leadership. So I credit my degree for helping me reach that level of responsibility within the company, and I enjoyed, my entire career that remained after completing my degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:46]:

I know that the degree that you got was a number of years back. But as you look back At your graduate education and you think about people that are thinking about graduate school right now, whether it be an MBA, A degree in engineering, whatever it may be. What are some tips that you might offer to Individuals that are thinking about graduate education that could help them to find success sooner.

Michael Weber [00:16:13]:

Chris, another great question, and I hope that My response will help others in their decision making with respect to beginning a graduate degree. I first highly recommend knowing your goals and clearly understanding why completing this degree is important to the person. That can be for several reasons, and they don't have to be of anything that I've already described. Perhaps it's to further the work that was done in an undergraduate degree. Maybe it's Requirement of either the current job that one is involved with or requirement for the next job, whatever that might be. It may just be because of the thirst of Further knowledge learning, but be sure that the person knows why they are seeking the advanced degree because it will take sacrifice, Money and time, but if the reward equals or is greater than the efforts, then it's worth pursuing. And other things to consider as well, And these may be obvious, but I'll note them so that they're not of a love. Do you have the time? And consider all aspects of what's involved with that.

Michael Weber [00:17:15]:

Class time, travel, study, time perhaps impacts to work as well as to family and your friends. Can you afford the cost Either now or in the future. And do you have a significant other that needs to be consulted? Graduate school is a big commitment. Competition will be higher than what it was in undergraduate, And you wanna make sure that there will be a return on your investment. In other words, will you confidently be able to reach your goals Following completing that degree program, and as I noted, I found experience worthwhile and rewarding in many ways. It's not an easy decision. And let me add this piece of advice that comes in the form of an old saying that I was continually reminded of by a chief engineer that I worked for many years. A goal without a plan is only a dream.

Michael Weber [00:18:03]:

So be sure you know why you were going after the advanced degree. And if you do And the goal is strong enough, you'll very likely achieve that goal with a great deal of success.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:13]:

Sage wisdom, and I really appreciate you sharing that and sharing everything that shared today, Michael. If people wanna find out more about you, is there a place they could go to find out more?

Michael Weber [00:18:22]:

Yeah. I I'll be open, and and I'll give you my email address. It is based on my name. So m, middle initial f, w e b e r. That's m f Weber with the numbers one one 2@comcast.net.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:38]:

Really appreciate that, Michael, and I'll put a link in the notes today for you to be able to reach out to Michael if you've got Questions or wanna reach out and ask him more about his own experience. Michael, thank you so much for being here, and I wish you all the best.

Michael Weber [00:18:50]:

Chris, it was my pleasure, and I wish everyone listening to this Podcast success as well. Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:55]:

The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflute.eduforward/graduateprograms To find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, Email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

The road to success in graduate school is paved with unique challenges and triumphs, especially for those pursuing their aspirations in a foreign country. In this week's Victors in Grad School podcast, Imrul Shuva, a graduate student in Computer Science and Information Systems at the University of Michigan Flint, shared his insightful journey through graduate school, shedding light on the experiences, challenges, and strategies that have helped him navigate the complexities of pursuing a master's degree.

Choosing Graduate School for Research Opportunities

Imrul's journey began with a passion for research. He highlighted that his interest in continuing to graduate school stemmed from a desire for more research opportunities. His undergraduate experience in thesis work kindled a passion for in-depth research, prompting him to seek advanced opportunities for academic exploration and growth. Imrul's journey emphasizes the vital role of passion and interest in choosing to pursue further education.

Selecting the Right Institution

Imrul's decision to attend the University of Michigan Flint was influenced by various factors, including the presence of research opportunities, a welcoming community, and the potential to bring his family with him. His decision process exposes the importance of considering multiple aspects such as community support, academic resources, and personal circumstances when choosing the right institution for one's academic pursuits.

Transitioning to a New Environment

Moving to a foreign country presents unique challenges, especially when considering cultural, environmental, and educational differences. Imrul's experience of acclimating to the climate and lifestyle in Michigan underscores the resilience and adaptability required for success in a new academic and personal environment. His experiences serve to reassure prospective international students that perseverance in the face of unfamiliarity is an essential aspect of their journey.

Balancing Academics and Fatherhood

Imrul's journey took an extraordinary turn as he welcomed his first child while navigating the demands of graduate school in a foreign land. His honest account of the initial challenges and eventual adaptation to juggling fatherhood with academic responsibilities sheds light on the resilience and determination required to navigate the dual roles of a student and a parent. Imrul's story conveys an inspiring message to aspiring students, affirming that dedication and adaptability can lead to success despite challenges.

Navigating the Transition to Graduate Research

Imrul highlighted the significant difference in the support and resources available for research at the graduate level compared to his undergraduate experience. His account emphasized the indispensable support of professors and the abundant resources at the University of Michigan Flint. His narrative underscores the value of mentorship and academic resources in empowering students to excel in their research pursuits.

Success in Graduate Classes

Transitioning from undergraduate to graduate-level classes necessitates a shift towards greater independence and self-motivation. Imrul's emphasis on the independent nature of graduate study and the importance of self-discipline and accountability aligns with the essential skills required for success in advanced academic pursuits. His journey reinforces the significance of proactivity and self-reliance in achieving success in graduate classes.

Future Aspirations and Advice for Prospective Grad Students

Looking towards the future, Imrul's aspirations for a career in academia and qualitative research reflect the profound impact of his graduate journey on his professional goals. His advice to prospective graduate students resonates with the importance of proactive planning, timely communication, and the pursuit of one's academic and professional passions.

Imrul Shuva's journey through graduate school at the University of Michigan-Flint serves as an exemplary testament to the resilience, adaptability, and determination required to navigate the complexities of pursuing an advanced degree, especially in a foreign country. His experiences illustrate the transformative power of passion, support, and dedication in the pursuit of academic and personal goals. Imrul's story inspires students to embrace challenges and seize opportunities, reaffirming that success in graduate school is a journey marked by dedication, growth, and extraordinary achievements.

This podcast is brought to you by The Office of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan-Flint. If you're still wondering about other things to consider when it comes to graduate school, you can also contact the Office of Graduate Programs at UM-Flint. We're here to answer questions Monday – Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. EST. You can also find out more about the 50+ programs that the university has to offer here.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:

Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]:

Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host doctor Christopher Lewis, Director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, We have an opportunity to be able to sit down, to work together, to work through this journey that you're on of going Either through grad school, getting ready for grad school, preparing in some way, or looking back at the experience that you had. You might be listening and trying to hear about some of the other people's experiences and see if they're the same as yours. There's so many different people That there's so many different ways in which we all go through our graduate school experience, and it's important to be able to understand what it takes to be able to be successful in that graduate school journey, and that's what and that's what this show is all about. Every week, I love being able to bring you different guests, people that are having different experiences, that Had different experiences that have had to do different things to prepare themselves well to to go into graduate school, but then What but then also had to pivot or do different things to be able to continue to find success in that journey along the way. This week, we've got another great guest with us.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:32]:

Imrul Shuva is with us today, and Imrul is a graduate student at the University of Michigan, Flint. He is studying computer science and information systems at The University of Michigan Flint, and he is actively getting ready. He sees that light at the end of the tunnel as he's preparing for graduation here in the the next year, and I know that he's gone through a lot to be able to get through the program and to do what he's had to do, and I'm looking forward to sharing his experience and having him share his journey with you. Imrul, thanks so much for joining us today.

Imrul Shuva [00:02:07]:

Thank you so much, Chris, for having me here. I'm privileged to be here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:11]:

Well, I really appreciate you being here today. And first and foremost, I guess, what I would love to do is turn the clock back in time because at some point, it might have been during your Bachelor's degree or your time at your previous institution where you were thinking to yourself, I think I might wanna continue. I want to continue to go to graduate school to get a degree. What were the reasons that you chose that you wanted to go to graduate school?

Imrul Shuva [00:02:37]:

Well, I was more interested in research. When I got admitted to my undergrad program, I was involved in a thesis that was a mandatory part of the undergrad. And at the last semester, we had a thesis. But before that, you know, I was looking for research opportunities. And the school I was In I mean, there were some research opportunities there, but most of them, you would have to do individually with a professor, and they were more involved doing the course works and people who are finding jobs, but I thought then if I could get admitted to a grad program, then maybe I will have more research There's opportunities. And the paper I wrote, I didn't have a chance to complete it. I mean, the standard I set for that. So I really wanted to have that published, but it didn't happen finally for the undergrad course.

Imrul Shuva [00:03:31]:

So, you know, I was looking for more research opportunities, and I thought, You know, going to a grad school, I would be able to achieve that. So that that was the primary goal to come to a grad school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:42]:

Now as you were looking at opportunities For graduate school, you could have stayed near home and done your work there. You chose to Eventually attend the University of Michigan Flint, but there are many options, many different degrees many different degrees, many different institutions. What was it about the University of Michigan Flint that drew you that drew you in and made you decide that that was the right school for you?

Imrul Shuva [00:04:08]:

Okay. So it's Honestly, you know, it's interesting that finally I came here, but the plan was not like that at first point. So I was planning to I mean, in US, so I didn't have a funding. I applied to a couple of universities. I initially, I didn't plan to come to Europe. I was planning to go somewhere else in Europe and applied to a couple of universities there. And then, you know, got admission, got the visa as well. And then I attended a seminar that run by US Embassy Bangladesh.

Imrul Shuva [00:04:41]:

It's called EducationUSA. I'm from Bangladesh. So there, I went there, and then after I think the doing the seminar, I thought maybe I could try a couple of universities in the US, and then I would Decide later. And then I got admitted to UN Flint, and then I got married at that time. And So in US, you know, bringing your family while you are starting a a little easier than Europe. I mean, the country I was planning, I couldn't take my wife with me. So that was the initial A reason I came here I mean, I chose this university. And then after I came, I never, you know, re regret it.

Imrul Shuva [00:05:25]:

I always felt great, you know, with the community, with the professors, staffs, and with everyone. I have had a very good time here so far, and I'm enjoying my time here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:35]:

Now you talked about bringing your family with you. You uprooted your family, brought them to a new country, a brand new area, Which are very different than than home. Talk to me about that transition for you and what you had to do, not only for yourself to transition, But also to transition your wife to the area as well.

Imrul Shuva [00:05:56]:

So after I go ahead, Mitel and planned for AUM Flint. So then I did research on the school a little bit before finally I finally planned to come. I got some research. You know? I went Through those careers dot umich site, and I have viewed some professors' labs website and their profiles. I went to Google Scholar, and I have seen what are the fields they're working on. And then, you know, it felt that I would really have a good opportunity in terms of research and in terms of computer science research, then I choose this university. And then after I came here so I started in fall 21, and then I didn't get the visa on time because I I applied a little late for visa, then I got the visa, and I came on November 3rd 21. After I came, it was so cold In Bangladesh, the weather is usually hot.

Imrul Shuva [00:06:52]:

And, I mean, it's cold only nearly 2 months in Bangladesh, but not as cold as here. So it was too cold, and I have seen snow for the first time in my life. I was residing in First Street resident hall, then I had to buy groceries For myself, I didn't have a car, and I didn't know where to get those groceries. Then I talked to people at the School and at the dorm as well. I had some Interesting. Friends, and they're local. They're from here, undergrad students. They are living in my apartment.

Imrul Shuva [00:07:24]:

So some of them, you know, took me to buy groceries, but I was shocked by the cold. I mean, it was a different experience at that time. You know, if you are a country from, like, Bangladesh or South Asia, so the weather in winter is crazy here for those people. But now, you know, I'm getting used And I don't feel what I felt when I first came here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:46]:

Definitely takes some some time to, as we say, thicken the blood So that you have an opportunity to not have not to not be as cold as quick. But it it definitely takes some time to do that. Now I know that while you were going through graduate school, you also had some other changes that happened where you welcomed your first child Also and you are balancing that now of going to school, being in a foreign country, having a child That is that was born here. Talk to me about that and being a graduate student and having to to being able to focus on your graduate studies while also being a father for the 1st time.

Imrul Shuva [00:08:27]:

Yeah. So, Chris, it it was really challenging, I would say, not in terms of having a child because, My child is only two and a half months now. So but before that, when we decided to came that time, I didn't get full funding From the school, for master's program, they don't offer mostly I mean, don't offer full funding. But maybe with other jobs, on Campus jobs and assistantships, it's possible to cover, I mean, significant part of that. So I'm not discouraging people that you're not gonna get funding. You can get funding, but it's not Like that from 1 scholarship you are getting full fund. So I had that problem at the 1st place. I mean, I didn't have full funding.

Imrul Shuva [00:09:04]:

I got a little funding and then I came, but I managed to survive with those financial parts as well. I was trying to get a job, and then I applied for different graduate research assistantship Paulishan gave interview with some of the professors and then, you know, got selected for that. So now now it's pretty much balanced. I don't have those kind of problems, you know, maybe not from only 1 source from the school, but combining 2, 3 different source. Right now, I work as a student ambassador with the graduate programs office and then work as a GSRA. So from those and other on campus Jobs or whatever whenever I have time apart from my studies, you know, I try different things to support us financially. That's one part. And Being a new parent, you know, a new dad, it's a great feeling.

Imrul Shuva [00:09:53]:

I cannot express in words. But the 1st few Days for the 1st month, we were really struggling because it was a totally new experience we never had before. The baby Try is not sleeping in the night, waking up several times. I have to, you know, wake up and feed the baby, and then I know I have lab at 8 Thirty. I have another class at 12:30. So I'm gonna stay all day on campus and then waking up several time in the night. So it was a hectic for the 1st and half months, I would say. But now, you know, he is doing better.

Imrul Shuva [00:10:29]:

He is sleeping more In the night and things have got better if we have to feed him less. I mean, he is drinking more, but the frequency is less.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:40]:

Congratulations. I know what it's like to be a father, but it's always challenging in those early months to early year, especially when they don't sleep, And you're having to balance all that and walking around walking around a bit like a zombie as you're going from piece to piece as you're trying to do everything. Now Earlier, you said that one of the things you loved in your undergraduate experience was that research component. And as you mentioned, you are a Graduate student research assistant here at the University of Michigan Flint. You've been able to do some really cool things As a research assistant, talk to me about the difference between research at the undergraduate and graduate level, and what did you have to do to make that transition for yourself to be prepared, but also to be ready to do research at the graduate level versus what you had to do at the undergraduate level.

Imrul Shuva [00:11:34]:

So I don't know how it's gonna sound, but I think for me, it was a major difference With the professors and their support and their interest in giving me the opportunity to continue working in a project, in a research project, You know, very actively, we didn't have that practice at home. At least for me, I didn't have that opportunity that A professor would support me, you know, actively to work in a research project. We did the courses. I think we had a very good insights of the courses we did at undergrad Even with the programming course and all other courses I had, we learned so much from there. But in research perspective, so we didn't have much insight and much encouraged to continue our research. Or there was a lacking of time from our sent as well as from the other invite here. I found mostly supportive faculties. That's one thing.

Imrul Shuva [00:12:29]:

And the resources we have here at AUM Flint. The library, I think, for research, a very good resource For us, you find everything you need to do research in any of the fields, I believe. Because for me, the papers and The things I was looking, I always got from that library. I was able to download everything from that site at the school. And then, you know, I went through all of them, and I discussed with my professors, and they were actively working with me as well. So I I think that's the significant change I had. And we have some other graduate courses. Right? We have an online platform, Canvas.

Imrul Shuva [00:13:08]:

From there, we have to do some research courses as well. Those are optional, but we can take those, and we can get a good insight how to do research. And as a GSO, we have to provide feedback as well to the grad school, how we are doing, what we are doing. There are Some important things that will teach you how to not flag your resume in any of those research Manuscript you are writing. So back in home, there was a a little lack of those things, I would say. But here, they're more organized, And the professors are really helping towards getting those resources.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:45]:

Beyond research, I know you've been able to find success In your classes as well. And going from undergrad into a graduate program, there's always going to be some transition that you have to go through to be able to change the way that you think, prepare yourself in some way As you enter the classroom and the expectations that are being set in front of you from your faculty that are different than what you had in your undergraduate degree. So as you think back to that, what did you have to do to Set yourself up for success as you entered into the institution. And what did you have to do to maintain that Success as you've been going through your entire graduate school journey.

Imrul Shuva [00:14:32]:

At undergrad, we were more dependent on our teachers, You know, in terms of learning and in terms of getting our studies, so whatever, you know, they are telling us to do Or maybe a homework or maybe a study. We're just studying that and going to the class and to have the next lecture. But here, I would say it's A bit more on your own. I mean, they're gonna instruct you. They're gonna tell you what to do, but all the things you are gonna do, you're alone, and it's more independent study. For example, let's say I come to the lab 2, 3 days a day full time. I don't need to. As a GSO, you need to work only 6 hours.

Imrul Shuva [00:15:10]:

Right? And if I don't come to the lab, no one's gonna tell me anything. Why didn't you come or whatever? But, you know, I set a goal for myself. So I set a goal for myself, and I know if I work more, I will have a better idea of what I am doing, and that might help Me towards a publication or towards my PhD or or whatever, towards my future academic goals. So I don't have a boss, and your professors not gonna tell you that you you need to come to the lab and you Maybe why you are not coming to the lab rather, you know, it's on myself. It's more independent studies at grad school Compared to the undergrad, what I did in undergrad. So that's one transition. And for the coursework, I think if you are doing it is the same for this course or graduate course works. Right? Attendance and all those things back in home, you know, there was obligation for that.

Imrul Shuva [00:16:07]:

You have to attend class at least 60%, 80%, 90%. So those are the things for you at there. But at the grad level, I mean, no one's bothered about Taking add in dance or those kind of things. Rather, as long as you are doing your course works properly, as long as you are learning those topics, Submitting your homeworks on time, wherever you staying I mean, whatever you're doing, no one's bothered about that. But, I mean, it's On you, how you are doing and how you are studying, it's no one but you. But if you need help, I mean, I have found everyone to be very helpful. If you don't understand any topic after attending a class, just, you know, feel free to reach out to that professor, and I'm sure, you know, they're gonna help the reg to help us.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:54]:

So as I mentioned at the beginning, the light is at the end of the tunnel. You're seeing it down there. There you are almost done. I know you've got 1 class left Here before you graduate, as you look at the future, what is in store for you? What do you see as your next step, and where do you want to go?

Imrul Shuva [00:17:12]:

Teal, I have 2 plans in my mind, plan a and plan b. So, I mean, my plan b was to get a job in application designing and Qualitative data analysis, qualitative research, so those kind of things, which I have been doing for a while. And I'm enjoying my work, You know, in that field. So that's one thing, to get a job in an organization where I could utilize those skills of qualitative research and designing, and I could learn more and carry on those research. So that was plan a b. And then my plan a is now is to continue studying a few more years, continue my research a few more years, get more comfortable with it. And after that, to stay in academia, to be honest, that's plenty for now, to stay in academia. I dream to be a professor.

Imrul Shuva [00:18:05]:

Why not? You can dream anything. Right? So the bigger your dream, the bigger you maybe will be able to achieve. So so I dream to be a professor, a computer science professor. So that's in my mind right now. And to do that to help me with that, I want to do a PhD. And it's in qualitative data analysis more in any of the fields of human computer interaction, user experience designing. And by doing that, I know I will have a lot of chance to help the community as well. Right? You should be grateful for everything you have.

Imrul Shuva [00:18:43]:

You should be grateful for the people you have around you, the people who are supporting you. So and you always At least you need to try something for them as well. Not in return, but but you will feel great if you can do something for them as well. So I'm more into doing my research and application designing, user experience research, and towards that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:06]:

Now you've mentioned a number of different things that you had to do to prepare yourself to find success in your own journey of graduate school. As you look back at that graduate education, what are some tips that you might offer other students that are considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Imrul Shuva [00:19:23]:

So as per my experience, my first suggestion I could give is to stop overthinking. Do not overthink. That's the first thing I would say. Because when I was in Bangladesh and I planned to come here, for me, I was overthinking a lot about those VISTA interviews and, I mean, small, small steps. I didn't have to, but I did. So I think it's it's Still the same case for many of the students. They're, you know, planning to come from abroad, so which can restrict them as well. And I can tell this because I interact with a lot of prospective students, and the students, they just came with those as a graduate ambassador.

Imrul Shuva [00:20:04]:

I have meeting with a lot of students from different parts of the world. And what I have felt is that many of those are overthinking. And Right now, I can understand they are, you know, unnecessary. They don't need to overthink that much. So that's one tip I could give. Stop overthinking about anything, but rather, you know, plan concrete. If you are planning to come to a school, plan for The best you could achieve in terms of getting scholarships, assistantships, and how you are gonna manage your funding, and what are the opportunities for you. So so those are the plan you need to have in your mind rather than overthinking.

Imrul Shuva [00:20:45]:

That's one thing. And Be on time with everything. I mean, with the coursework, with everything. So, I mean, Whatever you say to others, you you always try to maintain that. Or what what your responsibilities are, You don't, you know, run from them, not any point in time, whatever happens. Let's say I'm not on time in Submitting an assignment. It happened to me I mean, if not many times, still a lot of times it happened to me. The day my son born, I was in the hospital.

Imrul Shuva [00:21:21]:

You know? I took my wife 3 days ago to the hospital, and then I couldn't also inform my professor, but the day my son born, I had to submit 2 important assignments. I couldn't submit any of them. I just Send an email to these professors that I'm in a difficult situation, and so they're always helpful to listen to you to solve your problems, But you just need to, you know, need to let them know what's going on with you. Rather, let's say I'm not informing anything. And after after 5 days, I'm gonna tell them this happened. So it's better to let them know beforehand what's that, What's going on with me? Everyone's gonna consider that. So I would say, try to try to do all your works You are responsible for on time. That's another tip I would give.

Imrul Shuva [00:22:13]:

And whenever you have a problem, Whatever it is, how silly you think it is? The 1st place in my 1st semester, I know in class, They were going through some advanced topics of computer networking, and one of my professors from computer science department. I can name he say his name. It's professor, Soleiman Oludeg. So I'm going towards more advanced topics, And some of them, you know, I wasn't able to understand. And then I was very worried of asking him questions. You know? There are many students at the class. And, you know, I was thinking, I should have understood it. Maybe it's a very silly question.

Imrul Shuva [00:22:55]:

But whatever I Learned now, no question is silly as long as you don't understand it. So whatever it is, If you don't understand it, ask away to your professors. You know, this is the only way we can learn. We don't have any other ways to learn. I mean, If I have a problem in any topic I don't understand in the class and I am not asking, maybe I have to spend another 3 hours at home searching Google. And I might still not be able to understand that properly. But maybe, you know, in asking in a class, it might take only, you know, 30 seconds for them to explain and to make you understand. So those are the few tips I could give him as per my experience.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:36]:

Well, Imrul, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for Sharing your journey today, and I look forward to hearing what happens next in this next phase as you Get to the end of this master's degree, and I wish you all the best.

Imrul Shuva [00:23:52]:

Thank you so much for having me here, and it was nice meeting you. Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:56]:

The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for In person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our Graduate programs, visit umflute.eduforward/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

Graduate school is a significant undertaking that requires dedication, commitment, and a clear focus on personal and professional goals. This week on the Victors in Grad School Podcast we have a compelling conversation with Ron Williams, a successful business professional who holds a Master of Business Administration (MBA) from the University of Michigan - Flint. Throughout the episode, Ron shares valuable insights into his decision to pursue higher education, and the journey through his MBA program. His experience provides a wealth of knowledge for anyone considering or currently navigating the challenges of graduate school.

Reasons for Pursuing Grad School

As Ron delves into the reasons behind his decision to continue his education and pursue an MBA, he highlights three primary motivations. First, he sought to increase his earning potential, recognizing the tangible benefits that advanced education can bring. Additionally, the convenience and location of the program played a significant role, showcasing the importance of considering practical factors in choosing a graduate program. Finally, Ron was driven by a desire to expand his knowledge beyond his accounting background, aiming to gain a holistic understanding of business management. These motivations reflect the multifaceted considerations individuals should weigh before embarking on a graduate education journey.

Choosing the Right Graduate Program

When faced with various MBA program options, Ron's decision to attend the University of Michigan Flint was influenced by the institution's reputation and credibility. He emphasized the significance of the program's standing and the experiences of individuals who had gone through it. This highlights the importance of thoroughly researching and evaluating different programs to align with one's career goals and expectations. It reinforces the idea that beyond the educational content, the reputation and credibility of the institution can significantly impact one's educational experience and future career prospects.

Moving Towards Lifelong Learning

Ron's decision to pursue a Ph.D. stemmed from his diverse experiences and a strong foundation in lifelong learning. His military background instilled discipline and a drive for continuous improvement, shaping his approach to education and professional development. Additionally, his pursuit of a Ph.D. in business anthropology reflects a keen focus on understanding the science behind business and leveraging insights to support small and middle-market enterprises. This showcases the value of leveraging one's prior experiences and skills to carve a unique educational path that aligns with personal aspirations and long-term career goals.

Preparation for the Next Educational Chapter

Preparing for a Ph.D. involves seeking out mentorship and investing time in fundamental groundwork. Ron emphasizes the importance of finding mentors, both in academic and non-academic fields, as a critical part of professional development. Their guidance and insights can offer invaluable perspectives, aiding in personal growth and a broader understanding of complex subjects. Additionally, his dedication to reading recommended literature and seeking diversity in perspectives underscores the significance of embracing a well-rounded educational approach to enrich personal and professional growth.

Success in Graduate School

Reflecting on his MBA journey, Ron emphasizes the value of understanding material beyond the pursuit of grades. He highlights the importance of active listening, contextual understanding, and collaboration with peers as pivotal components of navigating a successful graduate school experience. His insights emphasize that success in higher education extends beyond academic achievements and requires a multifaceted approach that encompasses practical application and interpersonal learning from diverse perspectives.

Application of MBA Skills in Professional Endeavors

Ron's experience demonstrates the tangible benefits of his MBA education in shaping his daily professional endeavors. Beyond theoretical knowledge, his MBA equipped him with the ability to actively listen and comprehend diverse viewpoints, essential skills for navigating the complexities of business and leadership. His ability to collaborate, understand stakeholder perspectives, and lead teams stands as a testament to the practical application of knowledge gained during his MBA journey.

Advice for Aspiring Graduate Students

Drawing from his own experiences, Ron offers valuable advice for aspiring graduate students. He emphasizes the significance of dedicating time to truly understand course material, not solely for the sake of grades, but for comprehensive comprehension. This advice underscores the importance of embracing knowledge for its intrinsic value and the role it plays in preparing individuals for the dynamic challenges they will encounter in their respective industries.

Ron Williams' journey through the MBA program at the University of Michigan Flint offers a wealth of insights that can benefit individuals considering or currently navigating graduate school. His reflections on motivations, program selection, and the application of skills in professional settings provide a holistic view of the impact and importance of graduate education. As Ron moves forward in his pursuit of a Ph.D., his dedication to lifelong learning and the practical application of knowledge stand as exemplary lessons for anyone considering or already engaged in the challenging yet rewarding journey of graduate education.

This podcast is brought to you by The Office of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan-Flint. If you're still wondering about other things to consider when it comes to graduate school, you can also contact the Office of Graduate Programs at UM-Flint. We're here to answer questions Monday – Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. EST. You can also find out more about the 50+ programs that the university has to offer here.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:

Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:12]:

Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, Director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan flick. Really excited to have you back again this week. This week, as always, You and I are on a journey together. We're talking about graduate school. We're talking about furthering your education. And I know that You might be just starting to think about this and looking at what is it gonna take for me to get into grad school, get through grad school, figure this all out. You may be in grad school right now and struggling through it and trying to balance work and life and school and all of the stuff that you have to do as you're going through that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:51]:

And some of you may be looking at that light at the end of the tunnel. You were you're almost done, or maybe you just finished, And you're kind of looking back and reminiscing a little bit. Whatever it is, this podcast was set up to help you to be able to look at graduate school in a little bit different way. And every week, I love being able to talk to you, to sit down with you, to talk about What does it take? What does it take to be successful in this journey that you're on? And every week, I have the pleasure of talking to Many, many people to talk with them about their journeys in their graduate school experience. And this week, we got another great guest with us. Ron Williams is with us today, and Ron is the senior vice president for PrintWell Incorporated, but he's also The principal and chief business strategist for Key Business Strategists, LLC. So he's got a lot going on. He He is a graduate of Davenport University where he got his bachelor's degree, and then he went on from there and got a master's of business administration at the University of Michigan Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:58]:

Really excited to have him here and for him to share his own experiences with you. Ron, thanks so much for being here today.

Ron Williams [00:02:04]:

Thank you, doctor Lewis, for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:06]:

I am really excited to be able to have you here today to talk to you about this journey that you went on. And I think first and foremost, one of the things that I love to do is start off by turning the clock back in time. And I know that You did as I said, you did that master's degree at the University of Michigan Flint. And I guess At some point during your time at Davenport, after that time at Davenport, you made the decision that you wanted to continue your education and go on to graduate school. What were the reasons that you chose to continue your education and to move on with that education.

Ron Williams [00:02:44]:

So I think there are 3 primary reasons. First was obviously to increase my earning potential. Secondly, it was the location and the convenience of The program, I should say. At the time, when I started attending U of M Flint, I was the CFO, WGS Global Services in Grand Blanc. Timing wise, it was just perfect. 3rd and most notable, my undergraduate degree taught me how to do accounting, which is my undergraduate degree. However, I wanted to learn how to manage the accounting department. So I knew that I had to increase my knowledge of Not just accounting, but all other business applications as it relates to businesses today.

Ron Williams [00:03:26]:

So I started attending, U of M Flint By way of their weekend, MBA that required me only to attend once a month.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:35]:

You kind of answered my next Question, which is really a follow-up to this, which is really looking at the fact of there are many different MBA programs, And you probably had a lot of different options. You could have gone back to your undergrad. You could have gone to many different schools. What were some of the main reasons that you decided that you wanted to choose to go to the University of Michigan Flint?

Ron Williams [00:04:01]:

Yeah. So doctor Lewis, in the spirit of transparency, I did look between U of M Flint as well as some other institutions who offered A similar program, but none had the reputation that U of M Flint carried. I actually knew a Few individuals who attended U of M, Ann Arbor, U of M Dearborn, as well as U of M Flint. So and those individuals I found to be very knowledgeable very credible in their craft, and it led me to follow the same sort of path they did by way of, further aspiration into A not that the other programs are not good, but they don't have the weight and the credibility that U of M Flint carried.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:44]:

Now I know that you did that master's degree and you're currently in the process of preparing yourself To continue that education and to go into a doctorate program here in the near future. And I would love to hear a little bit more about that and the reasons behind why you're choosing to now go and get a PhD, and How you went about choosing the program that you ended up choosing.

Ron Williams [00:05:13]:

I think it stems from my time in the army. So before I started my collegiate path, I spent 8 years in the US Army where I was a chief warrant officer. And what a chief warrant officer is, for those that don't know in the army, is considered to be A subject matter expert at whatever their discipline is. So I was a quartermaster, and I spent a lot of time learning Technical manuals and even to the extent of writing some technical manuals in my, later end of my 8 years Andy Army started, then I went, as I was discharged, I went to OCC, Davenport University, subsequently, Dearborn. And what at each level, it encouraged me to to look at things differently than I had previously. It challenged me not only to look at things differently, but also to it created a desire for me to wanna be a part of the process, not just in accounting, not just in the accounting department, but also in business overall. So Apartment and I, we founded, Key Business strategists in Detroit. And we currently we have customers in the Midwest, currently in 8 states.

Ron Williams [00:06:25]:

Our goal is to continue to grow that. I also spent time as a banker. And then in that, I have the opportunity to look at a lot of different business models To learn what worked and what didn't. And now that I've gained the MBA, now that I know how to manage the processes, now that I have learned those things that work and those things that don't work. I feel that the PhD in business anthropology will help me craft business In a way that will help small and middle market businesses to avoid the loopholes that a lot of small and middle market businesses face. As you know, A lot of businesses who start out, they don't make it, and they don't make it because of what I coined is the linchpin theory. Right? That one decision that they did or did not make that cascaded them off the trajectory of success. So now that I have made that decision to continue my education, it was about choosing the right institution.

Ron Williams [00:07:21]:

While U of M Flint is a great institution. For business, I wanted to go just a little bit away from the business discipline, more of the anthropological aspect of business to understand the science Behind the business, it allows me to get rid of those blind spots that I have and that everyone has while I consider myself to be very good at what I do. I do also understand is that there is always room for improvement, And that is something I've gotten from the MBA program at U of M Flint is that continuous improvement is a mindset. We can't get to one particular place in time And believe that that we're safe, if you will. So we have to continue to develop ourselves, develop those around us, to further develop the organization. So that is what led me to investigating multiple, as I said, PhD programs around the country. Ultimately, I decided on, Wayne State University here in the city of Detroit. My wife and I, we currently live in a historic district Here, in the city, another business enterprise that we we own, is Oasis Residential Cleaning Services.

Ron Williams [00:08:32]:

So we started that business, during during COVID. We were looking for a home cleaning service, and we couldn't find a Dependable solution. And one of the things that I learned from the program is that when when you find an opportunity to meet the opportunity with a solution, and our solution was to create The enterprise to cater to the 8 historic districts within the city of Detroit. And in doing that, we have created great relationships with politicians here in the city as well as you name it. Ran into a lot of U of M graduates, a lot of Michigan State graduates. I was asked, what do I give credit to? And certainly, it is U of M Flint that gives me the ability to be able to make the right decisions at the right time. And had I not attended U of M Flint, I don't think I would have been as well provisioned to undertake those tasks as I am today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:23]:

One of the things that I guess that I would ask because I know that you said that you are in the process of preparing yourself for the PhD. And you also mentioned the importance of lifelong learning for you. When you say that you're preparing yourself, what are you doing to prepare yourself to make that next step and to start in this new program in the future.

Ron Williams [00:09:46]:

So one of the things that I learned, and it goes back to my time in the army, is to find a mentor. And in finding a mentor, again, it somewhat goes to what my overall vision is of Being a value add. So if you wanna be a solution to others, it stands to reason that we should find mentors, Someone who has already been down the road that we choose to go. And when you find a mentor, you know, that mentor can really give you some insight that you would not have gotten otherwise. So in finding a mentor and I have mentors in the academic field as well as nonacademic field, because I think that everyone has something valuable to add. And if I can take all of that and leverage it in a way to improve myself, then it would just make me ultimately, it will help me become a value to my society and community. So that's the direction that I wanna go. So I will always read books That were recommended by my mentors or those that from just doing, passive research that I find areas of interest.

Ron Williams [00:10:47]:

I read the material to Challenge the way that I see things as well as to give me different perspectives to have a more all inclusive approach to those That I currently work with, those that I lead, and those that I ultimately will work with in the future.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:04]:

Now throughout your experience, You found success. You got through that master's degree. You got through the bachelor's degree, and you made a successful transition. And I say a transition because there is a transition between the bachelor's, the master's, now for you preparing and and the transition that going to go through as you go into a PhD because every level of education is a little bit different. As you look back to the experience that you had In your MBA in graduate school, what did you have to do in that transition to prepare yourself For being successful, to set yourself up for success. But what did you have to do also to maintain That success throughout the entire graduate school journey.

Ron Williams [00:11:54]:

So U of M's program is great, the way that it's structured. So we met in class once a month, and that was an Opportunity to meet with the professors and to offer them to ascertain any questions that we may have and to provide further direction. But we met A lot outside of the classroom, and I had to always work with a great cohort who were knowledgeable in their field, whatever their fields may have been in it. It gave me a lot of insight from their vantage point that I never considered from the desk of accounting or finance, be it HR, engineering, or Customer service sales, name it, all over the spectrum. What I found in those cohorts is that it gave me a rich experience, not just from Gaining the theoretical applications that were offered by the book, but also a practical view of how organizations would see certain changes, if you will. So one of the courses that come to mind is Professor Bloom's course and organization change, which is very, I would say probably one of the most insightful courses I've ever had because in doing so, we had to talk with different stakeholders and understand The vantage point of the stakeholder and being able to get everyone to move in the same direction. In the army, that's kind of easy because Everyone knows that we don't go home until the objective is achieved. Here, though, in the corporate community, it's a little different because It's a different standard where individuals are allowed to move about as they please, whether the objective is achieved or not.

Ron Williams [00:13:22]:

So in being able to work with those teams and cohorts, it sharpened my skills in terms of being able to collaborate with individuals who think differently than I so the in class Portion with professors as well as the cohort time outside of the class row. So what I would recommend to those aspiring to attend U of M's Program or who's in any program is Larry's the professors. That's why they are there. They're knowledgeable in their field. And, also, the individuals who are sitting next here. Because they have the same goal as you do, which is to finish the course at the minimum or to finish the program at best. So if you understand these things and you work with, the individuals in the in the in the in the program. And so, you know, maybe not just in your in your class.

Ron Williams [00:14:07]:

I actually met A lot of, I have made a lot of colleagues who I've never had a course with, but they were in the MBA program. So I ran into them on the hallways or doing some sort of break or through, some social platform like LinkedIn, and it has proven beneficial for sure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:25]:

Now you Mentioned already that you took a lot from this MBA, and you're you've got a lot of things going on. You've got a lot of Irons in the fire. As you look at the education that you got through that MBA program, how do you feel that the graduate degree has prepared you for the work that you do on a daily basis.

Ron Williams [00:14:46]:

So as I said, you know, a few times already, coming from the military, I have a certain mindset, and it's Something that you just don't shake once you are discharged. So I have a certain regimen that I like to go by. I'm a person of certain Standards and discipline, if well, it is the same expectation, though, that I have of others. But the reality is, though, is that everyone did not go into There are services, so they don't have the benefit of having that sort of drive the way that I do. While I was in the program, it Taught me in listening to the professors lecture and listening to other cohorts. It taught me how to actively listen to what is being said, But more importantly or equally as important to understand the reasons why it is being said. Because if you don't take it within the entire context, Then you can certainly miss the entire point that is being made, or certainly you can miss the opportunity to provide adequate feedback. So I'll say that is certainly one of the that's certainly among the biggest benefits that I have gotten from attending the program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:51]:

I appreciate you sharing that. Now you've given a lot of pieces of advice today thinking about how, like you said, How that MBA has prepared you for all the things that you're doing today. But as you think back to your graduate education and you think of either your younger the person that you were before you went into a graduate degree or other people that are thinking about potentially going to graduate school. What are some tips that you might offer Others considering graduate education that would help them define success sooner.

Ron Williams [00:16:20]:

Spend the time that it takes to really understand the material, not for the sake of a grade, but for the sake of really understanding the material and the and the context to which it is being given. Don't focus. So the grades are certainly absolutely important, but what's more important is understanding the materials. If you understand the materials, it would allow you to evolve in a way that that you would not otherwise. If you If you if you dedicate the time to, studying and and understanding the the materials, I think that you would at each level, each course, You would certainly be prepared to undertake anything the world has to offer from a business standpoint and even beyond that. That is certainly the advice I would give to others.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:07]:

Well, Ron, I just wanna say thank you for being here, for sharing your journey. And as you move forward, I am excited to hear about the next phase in your education as you step into that that next very different journey that you're going to be in. And I am hoping that you'll talk to me in the future. We'll talk about that, and I'll hear more about what you're learning as you move Through that next phase. But thank you for being here. Thank you for sharing everything today, and I wish you all the best.

Ron Williams [00:17:38]:

Thank you for having me, doctor Lewis. Hopefully, I can use you as a resource in the future to talk about, those things that, that I'm learning and how they apply to the business community and how best to How best managers could use certain tools by way of AI, which is a big topic right now or but it will never replace the collaboration of it. So Thank you again, doctor Lewis, for having me, and I look forward to speaking with you in the future.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:03]:

The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs If you are interested in continuing your education, whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflute.eduforward/graduateprograms To find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, Email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

In this episode of Victors in Grad School, We welcome Brandee Cooke-Brown, the Executive Director of 100k Ideas, a nonprofit organization in Flint, Michigan. We discuss Brandee's journey from her undergraduate education at the University of Michigan to her decision to pursue a master's degree after several years of working. Brandee explains that her path to graduate school was not a traditional one, and she joined a college advising program after her undergraduate degree and worked for a few more years before deciding to return to education.

Brandee talks about her transition back to school and how she had to manage her time effectively. She highlights the importance of carving out time and staying organized to succeed in graduate school. She shares her experience of attending virtual classes and how it allowed her to be more comfortable and engaged as an introverted student.

The conversation delves into how Brandee built strong relationships with her program adviser and professors, emphasizing that it was crucial to establish a connection with her instructors, which was something she did not excel at during her undergraduate studies. She also discusses the importance of making graduate school a part of her life and utilizing the knowledge gained from the program in her job at 100k Ideas, directly applying concepts learned from overall MPA program.

Brandee touches on the significance of her graduate degree in preparing her for her role at 100k Ideas and how it helped close gaps in her knowledge and build her confidence. She discusses the practicality of what she learned and its direct application in her nonprofit work.

The podcast episode concludes with Brandee talking about her recognition as one of the "40 under 40" individuals in Genesee County, which is a source of pride for both her and her organization, 100k Ideas. She reflects on the importance of stepping out of one's comfort zone and taking action when pursuing higher education.

This episode serves as an insightful conversation about the value of graduate education, the importance of time management, building relationships with professors, and applying knowledge gained in a professional context. It offers valuable advice to aspiring graduate students.

This podcast is brought to you by The Office of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan-Flint. If you're still wondering about other things to consider when it comes to graduate school, you can also contact the Office of Graduate Programs at UM-Flint. We're here to answer questions Monday – Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. EST. You can also find out more about the 50+ programs that the university has to offer here.

TRANSCRIPT

Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:

Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]:

Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, you and I are on a journey together, A journey into looking at this journey of graduate school of what it takes to find success in that graduate school journey, and for Every person in that journey is a little bit different, and it's important to be able to learn from others. It's important to be able to talk to one another And to be able to hear the stories of others because from everyone's story, you're gonna hear something a little bit different about what they had to do to be able to take Those steps and do what they had to do to find success post bachelor's degree because it does take a little bit of different steps To be able to be successful in graduate school more so than your undergraduate degree as well. Every week, I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences That have gone through that graduate school journey themselves. And today, we've got another great guest with us. Brandee Cooke-Brown is with us today, and Brandee is the executive director of 100K Ideas, Which is a nonprofit in Flint, Michigan, and they are doing amazing things.

Christopher Lewis [00:01:29]:

And I am really excited to talk to her about her journey And having her here today. Brandy, thanks so much for joining us.

Brandee Cooke-Brown [00:01:37]:

Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Christopher Lewis [00:01:38]:

Well, I really appreciate your time today. I really appreciate you being here. Now I know you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan down in Ann Arbor, and then after a couple of years, we'll say Couple of years after grad after your undergraduate degree

Brandee Cooke-Brown [00:01:56]:

You're very generous.

Christopher Lewis [00:01:58]:

You decided to go back And you decided to get a master's degree. So for every person, that journey is a little bit different, and there's a reason find why people make that choice. So talk to me about what was going through your head, and what were the reasons that you chose to go back to graduate school After being in the workforce for a little bit.

Brandee Cooke-Brown [00:02:20]:

Unlike some of my fellow students when they were graduating, you know, a lot of them had Plans to go right into grad school or, you know, hey. We're gonna work and then go back to grad school. They kind of had that plan figured out. I did not. I even say, like, I found my next Step after college by, like, literally the seat of my pants and, like, an amazing opportunity happened to exist, and I was able to join the Mission College advising core. But I joined that thinking, okay. That's a 2 years, you know, of getting some real life experience. I'd be ready to go.

Brandee Cooke-Brown [00:02:46]:

I still was not. So I spent a couple more years working. I was able You get some really great experience in the private sector. And then a couple years into that, I ended up coming to Flint and meeting the cofounder of a 100 k ideas at an event that was being hosted at the Ferris School before it opened, and that's where I got introduced to a 100 k ideas and kind of fast forward. I ended up in Flint Because of that job, which was awesome, and as things are kinda moving and things are going and, you know, I'm catching a rhythm into life here From where I originally was in Lansing, COVID happened. And because, you know, things kind of slowed all the way down in COVID, I was like, hey. I have some extra time. What else am I doing in my life? Maybe now is the time to look at going back.

Brandee Cooke-Brown [00:03:28]:

And I had had my eye on University of Michigan's Flint's program for quite a while. We'll have the opportunity to talk to a couple people who have participated. And what I really liked about the program was that they understood as a We have life. There's a lot of nontraditional students that go, many that have taken time off in between, and that was very appealing to me. And, also, this is proximity to where I was and the ability to be very flexible with where I was at that point in my life. You know, my daughter was 1 at the time. I think I'd just gotten into a role of leadership for a 100 k. So there was a lot of transition happening, and then let's throw in a grad program at that, but it really honestly worked out at the perfect time.

Brandee Cooke-Brown [00:04:03]:

And so I kinda just jumped on it and just didn't think about it. Like, application, I didn't take too hard about it. I was like, let's just go and then think we're just rolling, and it turned out to be just such an amazing experience.

Christopher Lewis [00:04:14]:

Now for every student as they Especially if they take some time off between that undergraduate work and going to graduate work, there is going to be that shift and that Relearning that you have to go through to be able to not only get back into the the mode of learning from the mode of working, but then you're also balancing all of the other things that you're having to deal with. Talk to me first about What you had to do to be able to get back into the groove of being able to be back in school after taking that time off.

Brandee Cooke-Brown [00:04:49]:

Yeah. So a lot of it was Just carving out time and really getting organ like, just very organized. I thought I was organized, and I was not as organized as I thought until I had to incorporate those into my life. I am someone that does very well when I have, like, the set meeting and, like, the the to dos right after. And so that program, while again, started in COVID, all of it was virtual, but it was still class times. So it wasn't just doing at the time, it was Blackboard. I think it switched over to Canvas, but not just having a class where I just logged in to Blackboard and had to participate during discussions. For me, it was very important that I did have, hey.

Brandee Cooke-Brown [00:05:22]:

In this evening, I'm having this class. And then it was, like, a dedicated time to focus, And that really helped me out kind of getting it into my routine. And that allowed me to kind of start slowly edging back into, okay, I need to carve out study time. I need to carve out this space. And so what I found was evenings right after class were very helpful for me even though sometimes classes would run late. That was a perfect time because I was already in the mode. So I had you know, I'd hang up the Zoom, and I'm like, okay. Let me just go ahead and dive right in.

Brandee Cooke-Brown [00:05:48]:

Let me start outlining notes. Let me start reading. Let me start doing something. And that was very helpful to me because weekends were always tough. And then anytime during the day, I'm already working, so I really would take those times where I was already in it To capitalize on that opportunity to be able to get a lot of stuff done. So then as, like obviously, there are times where the schedule is not that flexible and you're really just spitting it in when you can. I kind of had an Organic practice by that point that I was able to kinda get myself back going.

Christopher Lewis [00:06:13]:

I just kinda talked to a lot about time management, And there are a lot of different things that go into being able to find success. And the program you went through was a few years long, so you had to Do that balancing for a while and have that time management going for a while. As you think about the journey that you went on through the entire program And you look at where you were at the beginning, where you were at the end, there had to have been other things outside of the time management piece probably that you had do to set yourself up for success and things that you had to do to be able to maintain that success throughout graduate school. Can you talk about that?

Brandee Cooke-Brown [00:06:49]:

The biggest thing was creating a relationship with The program adviser and my professors, that was something I did not do very well in undergraduate school. Ann Arbor's pretty big. So, you know, trying to make yourself stand out is a little difficult, and being a very Introverted person I am, that was not a strength, but that was something I mentally noted as I was entering the program to do better. Like, I wanted to make sure they understood. Like, I cared about this. I was signing up for this. So when there were days where I might be struggling or I might need more time, it wasn't like, who's this random person coming up to me asking, you know, for help? But they actually, like, knew me. They knew I was serious about this program, and that was a great thing.

Brandee Cooke-Brown [00:07:23]:

And so really developing a relationship What doctor Sachs early on was very helpful, and she also is just an incredible adviser and person for that program. Like, I love her. But her Also, developing that relationship allowed me to kind of set the right tone because we were I was very clear, like, hey. This, you know, 2 classes a semester is Perfect. Like, please don't add anything else to it. Where would that get me? Okay. That's 3 years. Alright.

Brandee Cooke-Brown [00:07:45]:

So it's 3 years. That's just where we are. A little longer than I would have liked, but, you know, that is what it is. But it allowed me to set the tone for how I move forward. So relationship development was huge. And then really just also making it a part of my life, not Just like this thing to the side, but, like, oh, man. I gotta make sure I read or even talking about it at work. You know, a 100 k is being employed current college students.

Brandee Cooke-Brown [00:08:07]:

So a lot of them are Graduating and figuring out what that next stage is and are trying to figure out, do they wanna go to grad school? So really being vocal about what I was doing with everybody so that way they also understood, like, Okay. Brandy's got this going on and not to be like, oh, that's why I didn't get this done, but really, like, no. Here's, like, a whole new facet. Here's what I'm learning from it. And then what I think is so great about the MPA program that I was Part of the public administration program is I was able to directly apply so much of what I was learning to my day to day life in nonprofit. So that's what was the appeal of the program. And so to be able to, hey. Oh, I read this.

Brandee Cooke-Brown [00:08:41]:

Oh, wait. Let me take this back to work. We need to be doing this. Like, that Was fantastic, and I was in a position where I could actually implement those things. It wasn't like I had to go and say, hey. I think we should do that. I could just, like, no. We need to do this, guys.

Brandee Cooke-Brown [00:08:52]:

Let's go ahead and knock it out. And that was incredibly helpful for me as someone because it was really like I say, it became just a part of my life, an extension of what I was doing in it just so beautifully with everything I was already working on.

Christopher Lewis [00:09:04]:

One of the things that you were just talking about was the fact that in graduate school that you had to develop strong relationships with your adviser, your faculty, and you didn't do that well in undergrad. What did you have to do? What steps did you have to follow to be able to not only create that first relationship, but also to Build upon, foster, cultivate, and make that relationship stronger to maintain it throughout your graduate school experience.

Brandee Cooke-Brown [00:09:37]:

Ironically, I feel like being virtual helped me thrive. That makes sense. Again, being very introverted. Virtual, it's a little awkward when people come off mute, and you're trying the time to talk, but for me, that was perfect because there wasn't pressure. I was just at home. So, you know, I'd have an opinion, so I'd speak up in class and be able to give my opinion and I was engaged in listening, so that was very helpful. And, you know, again, doctor Sachs was very open with office hours, so I made sure to attend those. Whether I had her as a Teacher at that semester or not, we would go, you know, for coffee and just say, hey.

Brandee Cooke-Brown [00:10:07]:

How are things going? You know, how are you doing? Here's what's going on. And, you know, she would get to know me. And then what was also great about being virtual people could see my life. My daughter literally was growing up in front of like, we were all. Like, at a point, it's the same bunch of you in the same classes, You know, each semester, so they're, like, watching her grow up behind me while she's growing up and running behind the scenes. So that was also a connection that people were making with me as well as, like, with my professors. And then luckily, a couple of them, I kinda got lucky because I knew them outside of school. So I actually, You know, I had developed a relationship with them.

Brandee Cooke-Brown [00:10:39]:

They happen to be faculty at U of M Flint, so that was an awesome plus there because then I also could, you know, lean on them a little heavier because I could say, oh, hey. Well, you know my flight. You know? Here's what we're doing. How do I apply this? You know? You know a little bit more about what's going on. And so, again, I was Trying to be very intentional in developing those relationships and not just when I needed something, but to kind of, you know, really Be like, hey. How are things going? Like, what's going on? Which is not normal for me in general, but really trying to be proactive about that, and realizing also that these relationships maintain past this point. Right? Like, it's not just grad school is not the one, stop for these relationships. You wanna keep them going and keep facilitating them over all these of these years.

Christopher Lewis [00:11:23]:

You know, I love that because I mean, I think that It's so important. I mean, it's so important for you to be able to build those relationships, not only with your faculty, but with your peers and Being able to learn from their experiences as well because they are gonna bring different things, a different dynamic, a different diverse background to the classroom as well. And in a perfect scenario, you all bring all of that together to have this Beautiful mixing pot of of experiences that help you to be able to take the information that you're learning And turning it into something better. And in graduate school, that's the thing that a lot of times you don't get out of undergrad because of the fact that So many undergrads are very they're traditional age, and they're going through it, and they don't have the other experiences to bring into the mix. So they're learning more from the person in front of you versus all around you. And and I think that's one of the things that's kind of unique about that.

Brandee Cooke-Brown [00:12:22]:

Absolutely.

Christopher Lewis [00:12:23]:

Now you've kind of talked a little bit about this, but you completed your graduate degree. You've had it now for a few years. And As you look at the work that you do at 100 k ideas, how do you feel that the graduate degree has prepared you for the work that you're doing on a daily basis?

Brandee Cooke-Brown [00:12:40]:

Oh, beyond. It's one of those things where I had a little bit of impostor syndrome when I came into this leadership position. That was one of the catalyst For getting my grad degree, like, yes. It was COVID. There was a lot of things going on. I'd wanted to do it. But this specific degree, you know, being in public administration with a nonprofit with a nonprofit concentration, I thought, would help close some of those gaps I was learning on the fly. Like, I, you know, was able to pick up things pretty quickly, but Having kind of that background of, hey.

Brandee Cooke-Brown [00:13:06]:

Well, this is why this exists. Here's the background. Here's the understanding. Here's kind of how all of these connect together was Fantastic because it really did close a lot of gaps in how we could operate and also our potential for how we move forward. And what wild as I remember, we were one of the classes we were doing logic models and, you know, evaluation plans, and that's central to a lot of nonprofits because a lot of your grant funders asking you for your logic, your evaluation plan. And I was like, oh, look at this. This is perfect. And I was able to also leverage a 100 quay quite a bit And using that as an opportunity to help both.

Brandee Cooke-Brown [00:13:38]:

Right? Like, help, you know, my organization by using these projects as a way to kind of explore areas in my traditional work in my day to day, I would not have the ability to do. So it really allowed me to put into practice immediately what was going on. And so, again, it helped kind of alleviate that. Do I know what I'm doing? You know, it kinda helps 1 of my favorite. You're on the right track. You got this. But then add that credential to be like, no. You really do actually know what you're doing.

Brandee Cooke-Brown [00:13:59]:

You can feel confident in In what you know and what you're doing and how you're moving forward. And that's one thing I will say, and I told this to doctor Sacks. When my program was ending, I was like, no. I appreciate you so much that everything was applicable. Like, there was nothing I felt like was a throwaway class. There was nothing I felt like I didn't take anything from her. I just did it to get the credit. Like, everything was able to be used, and I've been able to use it in different facets of my position.

Christopher Lewis [00:14:22]:

Now one of the things that you kinda get surprised with over the last year was being recognized and as One of the 40 under 40 in Genesee County area. And talk to me about that and what that's meant to you and your organization.

Brandee Cooke-Brown [00:14:37]:

Oh, it meant a lot. I mean, it's there's a lot of people in this area. So to be named 1 of 40, and I also don't consider myself that close to 40, so I feel like I had some time to make it. It's pretty awesome, but also just to see the company I'm in. And these are people that I look at every day as, oh my gosh. You guys are doing such awesome things. Like, you know, one day I wanna be like you. So To be put into that company and to see that, yes, I'm being recognized, but, really, it's a 100 k that's also being recognized for doing great things is awesome.

Brandee Cooke-Brown [00:15:03]:

And I will never I take that for granted. Ironically, at that event is when I realized one of the people I knew on the list was also in the MPA program. So initially, we were like, Yeah. How are you? How are things going? And so we were able to make a, you know, additional connection on top of the one we already had. And so, again, this community has a lot of amazing people doing great things. And so to be able to be among that group was pretty special.

Christopher Lewis [00:15:25]:

It definitely is special and definitely a great opportunity, like you said, for your nonprofit to get To get notoriety, but also for you to be recognized for the work that you do. Now thinking back at graduate school and the experience that you had in that graduate school experience, Maybe even thinking back to that younger self, that student back in at Ann Arbor going through the motions, maybe not exactly knowing exactly where she was going. What are some tips that you might offer your younger self or others that are considering graduate education that would help them define success?

Brandee Cooke-Brown [00:15:56]:

Well, first, I would say don't think too hard about it. Like, I think that's where we get our we get in our heads too much, and we can talk ourselves out of anything. And that's something I did a lot As an undergraduate student, whether it came to joining a club or, hey. I'm gonna go to this meeting or I'm gonna engage in this way. I would be able to talk myself out of it because it was so far my comfort zone at that time. And so I really made a point of, if I have to second guess it because it's a comfort situation, then I just need to go ahead and go Right. That's why, like, it's obviously a challenge I need to to explore. And so that's really the biggest thing is just getting outside of your own head and really just going for the things that you want.

Brandee Cooke-Brown [00:16:30]:

I've realized, like, you can't sit and hope that someone notices you or sit and, you know, hope that something happens. There's some action that has to go behind that. It's very important to kinda just keep pushing yourself. Don't get complacent of where you are. Because, again, like, it's kind of the whole reason part of me also went to grad school. Right? Because at that point, I'm like, okay. I'm in a teen. I got it.

Brandee Cooke-Brown [00:16:48]:

You know? Yeah. Things got a little appended because of COVID, but not much. But it's just not like, okay. Well, I'm just in this. What's next? What's next? What's next? And that was Mind what's next. And so I'm so glad I did it. So that's the thing I think if anybody's wondering or sitting on if there's the right time. I think there's never a right Time for anything, and so you kinda just have to jump in when when you feel the urge or you feel the pull.

Christopher Lewis [00:17:08]:

Well, Brandy, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for Sharing your story, and thank you for all that you're doing with 100 k ideas to push individuals to think differently and to Encourage young people to think differently, and I wish you all the best.

Brandee Cooke-Brown [00:17:23]:

Thank you so much, and thank you so much for having me. This has been awesome.

Christopher Lewis [00:17:26]:

The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking For in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a Victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, Email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

In this episode of Victors in Grad School podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis, the Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint, speaks with Leslie Whetstone, the Associate Director of Undergraduate Admissions at the University of Michigan Flint. They discuss Leslie's journey from earning a Bachelor of Arts in History to pursuing a Master's of Business Administration (MBA) at Baker College.

Leslie shares that she initially aimed to work in a museum or research-related field with her history degree but ended up in retail management. Her path led her to higher education, where she found her passion for working with students. When she transitioned to the Graduate Studies campus, she needed to earn a master's degree within two years, making the decision to further her education.

She chose an MBA to broaden her career opportunities, especially in leadership roles. Her motivation to pursue an MBA was also influenced by her familiarity with Baker College and its flexible, asynchronous online format. She appreciated the program's quick-paced classes, which suited her writing and research strengths.

To succeed in graduate school, Leslie highlights the importance of time management and discipline, especially when juggling work, home life, and school. She emphasizes the significance of carving out time and being prepared to adjust plans to meet academic commitments. Leslie achieved her goal of graduating with an MBA, even though her journey was non-traditional and involved overcoming challenges.

Her MBA education provided her with valuable skills in leadership, team motivation, and self-improvement. Leslie recommends that others take the first step towards their academic goals and believes that investing in graduate education can lead to professional growth, self-discovery, and a more rewarding career.

Dr. Christopher Lewis encourages aspiring graduate students to explore their options, and the University of Michigan Flint offers a variety of master's and doctoral programs, both in-person and online, to cater to diverse needs and interests. For more information, you can visit their website.

The conversation with Leslie Whetstone highlights how pursuing a graduate degree can open doors to new opportunities and personal growth, demonstrating the importance of taking that first step towards your academic goals.

This podcast is brought to you by The Office of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan-Flint. If you're still wondering about other things to consider when it comes to graduate school, you can also contact the Office of Graduate Programs at UM-Flint. We're here to answer questions Monday – Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. EST. You can also find out more about the 50+ programs that the university has to offer here.

TRANSCRIPT

Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:

Welcome to the Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]:

Welcome back to Victors in grad school. I'm your host, dr. Christopher Lewis, director of Graduate Programs for the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week we are talking to different individuals who have gone beyond their bachelor's degree, have studied different things, have learned different things along the way to be able to find success in that graduate school journey. Now, I know you may already be in grad school, you may be thinking about graduate school. You are on a path toward future education or you're in future education, and you're looking for ways in which you can find success yourself. And that's what this podcast is all about.

Christopher Lewis [00:00:51]:

It is here to help you to find success in that graduate school journey. And every week I love being able to bring you different people that have had different experiences that you can learn from and take things that they learned ahead of you to implement into your own experience. This week we got another great guest with us. Leslie Wetstone is with us. Leslie is the Associate Director of Undergraduate Admissions at the University of Michigan Flint. She started her undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, but then went beyond the University of Michigan Flint to get a Master's of Business Administration at Baker College Center for Graduate Studies. And we're going to talk about that experience and learn from the journey that she had. Leslie, thanks so much for being here today.

Leslee Whetstone [00:01:39]:

No problem. I'm happy to be here. Better to have you here today. One of the things I love doing is, first and foremost, turn the clock back in time. I want to go back a few years. I said that you did your undergraduate work here at the University of Michigan, Flint. But then at some point during that undergraduate work, maybe after that, because there was quite a few years between that time in which you got your bachelor's degree and the time in which you decided to get your Master's degree, but at some point you made that decision that you wanted to go further. You wanted to go from getting that Bachelor of Arts in History to getting that MBA.

Christopher Lewis [00:02:18]:

Tell me about what made you decide that you wanted to continue that education and move forward toward that Master's degree. Yeah, so when I got my degree in history, obviously my career path was thought of a little bit different than what it was going to be. I did want to work in a museum or doing research, having that history degree, I was working in retail management and came across a position in higher education in the admissions department, actually, at Baker College for their Flint campus, and I applied and started working there. I really enjoyed working in higher education. I was at the Flint campus for about ten years and made the transition to work at the Graduate Studies campus. At that time, it was a requirement for me to earn a master's degree within two years or start it at least within two years of making that transition into the Graduate Studies program. Had I not moved, I don't know that my decision would have been to get a graduate degree. I am very happy that I did because it has brought me to where I am today, working for the University of Michigan Flint in an Associate Director position.

Leslee Whetstone [00:03:42]:

I am currently in 18 years of higher education, and I love it. I love working with students. I like to be able to discuss what brought me into education. I had a very untraditional path. I started out at Mott Community College. I spent about a year and a half there before I transferred to U of M Flint. It took me six years to earn my bachelor's degree, so it was a little bit of a longer, untraditional path, and then it was another 16 years between my undergraduate to get my graduate degree. Did decide to get the Master's of Business Administration, and you chose to go to Baker College.

Christopher Lewis [00:04:25]:

Now, it may have been a proximity piece because, like you said, you were working at Baker College at the time, and they had the degree. So it may have been just that. It was very close and very much something that was available to you. Talk to me about the reason for choosing a Master's of Business Administration, because there could have been other degrees that you could have probably chosen to, and also the degree itself at Baker College. Why baker College? Why an MBA? Yeah. So as you mentioned, Chris, my undergraduate degree is in history. In the workforce, it's not really that viable of a degree unless they do not care what your degree is in. I felt going into a Business Administration Master's degree would give me some diversity, would open up for some additional job opportunities.

Leslee Whetstone [00:05:19]:

I wanted to be in a leadership position, and this would allow me to have that business and leadership education to back up some of my work experience that I've already had. I did work in some leadership positions at Baker College. I chose them because I worked there. I liked the pace of the degree. It was an asynchronous classroom. The classes were six weeks each, and it was a very heavy writing program and research program. And that was my strong suit, is writing and research. So I felt like it fit into my needs with quick classes and what I enjoyed doing.

Christopher Lewis [00:06:01]:

Appreciate you sharing that. Now, you did get through that program, you got through the degree. You were successful in gaining that graduate degree for yourself. As you look at the success that you had in graduate school, and you think back to the time when you were in undergrad, but also that time off and then that transition back into higher education. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success, and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your graduate school journey? So time management was huge. When I was in my undergraduate, yes, I worked, and I had more of a flexible job. I did not have any children. 16 years later, I'm in a graduate program, and I did have a child at that point.

Leslee Whetstone [00:06:53]:

She was 14 then. So pretty self sufficient. But a lot of the things that I did need to set myself up was managing my job load at work, my home life, and my school life. So that definitely was something that was a little bit of a transition. But on top of that, because I earned my undergraduate, or when I was in my undergraduate, it was in the late 1990s, there was not a lot of online classes that were available, and this program was 100% online, so I had never used an online format. So that, again, was a little bit of a learning curve for me. I was familiar with using computers and CRM systems at work, but actually having that discipline of an Asynchronous classroom and setting that time aside to do everything that I needed to do because it was a fast pace, it was, again making sure that I was carving out time and turning down plans if necessary, just to fit everything in. I did all right in my undergraduate, but in my graduate, my goal was to graduate with a 4.0.

Leslee Whetstone [00:08:07]:

I didn't quite reach that goal. I did graduate with a 3.85, so I was pretty happy with how I did in planning to earn that degree. Do you think back to the education that you had, the classes that you had, the things that you learned during that MBA degree, and you think to the work that you have done since getting that degree, how has that prepared you for the work that you're doing on a daily basis? It has greatly prepared me because with my Master's of Business Administration, I did focus on leadership, and I am now in a leadership position. So one of the main focuses was working. Know how to work with diverse teams and how to motivate teams without being discouraging. Looking at researching past leaders such as you think Warren Buffett was one that we discussed and what their leadership styles are. But then also in those classes, spending that time to figure out how I could be an effective leader with a team and what my strong suits are, but more importantly, what my weaknesses are. Like what I can focus on to grow as a leader, but also to connect with my team and feel like I'm part of a team and continue to motivate.

Leslee Whetstone [00:09:36]:

So really my biggest focus was trying to learn how to be a better leader and be able to bring that into my current field in higher education. Now. Also, as you look back at your MBA degree and you think about the things that you had to do as you said, the time management and other things that you had to do to find that success in grad school, and you think about the person that you were then, and maybe think about other students that are going through this similar experience. What are some tips that you might offer to others that are thinking about graduate school and finding success for themselves? I would recommend to take that first step, decide that this is what you want to do and move forward with it. It is very rewarding to me to be able to tell people that I earned an MBA and that I did it, especially being a first generation college student going into an undergraduate. And in my family, I'm the only person that has a master's degree. So that does make me feel proud. And I would encourage you to do what makes you feel proud.

Leslee Whetstone [00:10:55]:

If this is something that you want to do, take the time to do it. Being able to carve out your time, it can be difficult, but I feel like in the end, it is so rewarding and there are many benefits. It can help you grow within your current field. It can help you with better understanding who you are as a person, because the graduate programs are so different than the undergraduate programs, and it allows you to just explore who you are professionally and be able to move into new roles. It opens up so many doors. Definitely does open up many doors. And like you said, you're now in a leadership position. You can draw on that same experience.

Christopher Lewis [00:11:40]:

The learning that you have and that you gain from that graduate experience is going to be something that you're going to draw from for years after you get that degree as well. So it is an investment. It's an investment in yourself, an investment in your future. So I truly appreciate you sharing your journey, for sharing your experience, and I wish you all the best. Thank you so much. And thank you for inviting me to join you today. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of Masters and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education, whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs.

Christopher Lewis [00:12:18]:

For more information on any of our graduate programs visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

In this episode of "Victors in Grad School," the host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, interviews Brittany Douglas, a physician assistant student at the University of Michigan Flint. The podcast focuses on the journey of students, alumni, and experts and how they find success in graduate school.

Brittany Douglas discusses her unique path to becoming a physician assistant. She initially worked as a surgical tech for 13 years and was inspired by the flexibility and variety of specialties that PAs can work in. Her experience in the operating room allowed her to build relationships with physicians and PAs, which motivated her to pursue a career in medicine.

The conversation delves into Brittany's decision to become a physician assistant over a doctor. She emphasizes the shorter duration of education and training, allowing her to enter her career sooner. Her desire for a career change led her to explore PA programs.

As a non-traditional student entering PA school at 29, Brittany discusses the advantages of her prior clinical experience and master's degree. She feels well-prepared for clinical rotations, particularly due to her familiarity with various medical procedures.

Brittany chose the University of Michigan Flint's PA program due to its strong emphasis on community service, outreach, and engagement. The program's focus on serving underserved communities aligned with her values.

She also describes her experience with a National Health Policy Fellowship and her work in advocating for healthcare policy changes. She shares her community advocacy project to educate PA students across Michigan about legislative topics related to their profession.

Brittany reflects on her graduate education and advises students to focus on foundational concepts such as physiology, anatomy, and pathophysiology. Understanding the root causes of diseases is crucial for success in medicine.

The episode concludes with a discussion of Brittany's future career goals, which include a potential focus on cardiac surgery and cardiac ICU management.

The host encourages listeners to explore the graduate programs offered by the University of Michigan Flint and emphasizes the importance of foundational knowledge for future success in graduate school. Contact information for further inquiries is provided.

This podcast is brought to you by The Office of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan-Flint. If you're still wondering about other things to consider when it comes to graduate school, you can also contact the Office of Graduate Programs at UM-Flint. We're here to answer questions Monday – Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. EST. You can also find out more about the 50+ programs that the university has to offer here.

TRANSCRIPT

You are a podcast editor. Take the following transcript from a podcast and create podcast notes in paragraph form for the episode.

Christopher Lewis [00:00:02]:

Welcome to the Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in grad school. I'm your host, dr. Christopher Lewis, director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week I love being able to sit down and talk with you about the journey that you're on. You could be at the very beginning just thinking about, do I want to do this grad school thing? You could be applying and knowing what you want to do, where you want to go, or some ideas of where you want to go. You could be in graduate school.

Christopher Lewis [00:00:45]:

But the thing that I love to talk with you about every week is how you find success in that graduate school journey. Because it is so important for you to be able to do whatever you can to be able to set yourself up right, to find success in that journey for yourself. Because that's why you're going through this. You want to be successful. You want to get that degree in the end and be able to take it, to hone your skills and take you into either that next step in your career, that new career, whatever it might be. And every week we bring you new guests, new people for you to learn from. All of these people have either gone through graduate school, are currently going through graduate school, and you have an opportunity to be able to learn and to grow from the experiences that they've had, know that no matter what area that they're in, they've had to do similar things. So whether they're in med school, law school, they're getting an MBA, the curricular aspects are going to be a little bit different, but there are a lot of similarities as well in what you have to do.

Christopher Lewis [00:01:53]:

So this week we've got another great guest with us. Brittany Douglas is with us and Brittany is a physician assistant student at the University of Michigan Flint. She is in her last year. So right now we're talking to her and she's on her clinical rotations right now, taking all those skills that she's been learning over the first two years in the program and putting them into practice. And I am excited to be able to hear her journey and for you to learn more from her. Brittany, thanks so much for being here today.

Brittany Douglas [00:02:22]:

Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity.

Christopher Lewis [00:02:24]:

I love that we are able to sit down and chat. And I guess first and foremost, I want to turn the clock back in time. I want you to kind of reflect back because at some point, whether it was in high school or your undergrad or prior to undergrad in some way, you made a choice that you wanted to go and become a physician assistant. Talk to me about that journey. And what you did to be able to really set yourself on that path, because I know that you do have a kind of a unique journey in regard to becoming a surgical tech, even before you were in your undergraduate experience, and that continued on through undergrad and now into graduate school. So talk to me about the journey and what made you finally decide that you wanted to become a physician assistant.

Brittany Douglas [00:03:17]:

Yeah, so I completed my surgical technology program in 2011. So 13 years that I've been a technologist, going on 13 years. I still work on the weekends, even in PA school, which is kind of outrageous, but I absolutely loved being in the or. I still love it all the different variety of cases and working in the Ors. I got to develop relationships with physicians and different specialties, of course, but always Pas. I see Pas in almost every specialty, and I love the flexibility of the degree. I love that they can go into any subspecialty they like, and if they start off in one and it's not for them, or they want to try something different, they can, and so they move into a different one. And I just really appreciated that.

Brittany Douglas [00:04:00]:

And I love the relationships that Pas develop, both preoperatively intraoperatively and post operatively. They really knew the patients inside and out, and I think it was great to see how they built upon their relationship with them continuing, just speaking surgically. So for me, I was inspired by that, to continue to pursue medicine. So that's what inspired me to be a PA.

Christopher Lewis [00:04:24]:

So one of the things that I think sometimes people think of when they're going through their undergrad is they may go in thinking, I want to be a doctor, and then at some point, they learn about becoming a physician, nor they've known about it, and they choose that path instead. I don't know if at any point if you struggled with that decision, and if so, what made you decide that physician assistant was the route that you wanted to go versus going down the route of medical school and maybe becoming a surgeon in that regard?

Brittany Douglas [00:04:59]:

Yeah, absolutely. It's definitely something that I had to sit down with myself and have a conversation and be like, which is the better path for me? And so I already have a master's degree in biology, and I worked in pharmaceutical research. I was around the age of 29 when I started to debate, like, what do I want to go back to school for? I definitely want to be more involved with medicine. I really miss that aspect of my life. And for me, I really appreciate the flexibility, again with Pas being able to go into multiple subspecialties and also being a nontraditional student. I was 29 when I applied. So that being said, I didn't really want to do four years of medical school, five years of residency, a fellowship, and really be like 40 years old when I'm starting my career. So the shorter duration of education and training for Pas was also appealing to me.

Christopher Lewis [00:05:46]:

You talk about the fact that when you started your program, you're 29 years old, you didn't want to wait until you were 40. But as a 29 year old, you have a mixture of individuals in your program. Talk to me about that and what it's like to be maybe a little bit older in the program and also having a lot more experience coming into a PA program and how that's helped you in the program itself.

Brittany Douglas [00:06:14]:

I think my background certainly helps me, right. Because I've been in the procedures. I've seen several of these procedures where a lot of people, they'll hear a cole cystectomy and they kind of have to imagine what that looks like. And I've done hundreds and hundreds of them. And so it's definitely an advantage in that aspect that when we're learning about these different things interoperatively that I have, that kind of roundabout. However, the medication management and the longevity management of these patients as a surgical tech, that's not something I experienced. So I still continue to learn. Don't get me wrong, there's so much involved with PA school.

Brittany Douglas [00:06:50]:

But I think that being 29, having a prior career, having lots and lots of clinical patient contact hours served me in a great way. That when you're learning. About medication management plans or you're learning a patient is presenting with appendicitis or colysystitis. I know in my mind what these procedures look like for these patients and the recovery for them.

Christopher Lewis [00:07:09]:

Now, I mentioned that you are a third year student at the University of Michigan Flint. So you went through your undergraduate work down in South Carolina. You got your bachelor's degree, you went and got a master's degree in biology. You had that career. At some point, you made that decision that, yep, I'm going to be making that next switch, becoming a physician assistant. And there's many physician assistant programs that are out there, not only in Michigan, but throughout the United States. You were living in other states and had a lot of different experiences. Talk to me about why you chose to attend the University of Michigan Flint.

Brittany Douglas [00:07:51]:

Yeah, this is one of my favorite questions. I'm from Michigan, but I lived in South Carolina, I lived in Florida, and I did research in New Jersey for about two years and then applying to PA schools. I wanted to be very cognizant of community service is very important to me. So especially knowing that Pas right now are making such an impact in underserved and rural communities. So finding a program that was tailored to that, that really leverages the importance of giving back to the community, community service, outrage, engagement, those things adversity. It's very important. And so University of Flint's program, university of Michigan Flint's program really, really stood out to me in that aspect. Right.

Brittany Douglas [00:08:30]:

We do all kinds of work locally, but we also do things just for the children in the community. We go to Sylvester Broom Empowerment Village, and during your Didactic year, you'll go there quite often and get to interact with the kids and build a relationship with them. And I think that it's so important to remember the community that you serve. So of course, being a Michigan native, I know that Flint is an underserved community. It seemed like a win win for me.

Christopher Lewis [00:08:56]:

Now, you found success in your graduate school journey. What did you have to do, seeing that you already had one master's, you had a career as well prior to coming in, but what did you really have to do for yourself to be able to set yourself up for success in the program? But also, what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the program?

Brittany Douglas [00:09:17]:

100% time management is really important. And being a prior graduate student, I had kind of honed in on what study techniques work best for me. And the way that you study in graduate school is much different than the way you study in undergrad. In graduate school, you're expected to do some self study. You're expected to kind of delve into topics that you don't necessarily get a good sound on while you're in lecture and in undergrad, they're a little bit more diligent about making sure that you understand these topics with homework assignments and things like that versus in a graduate program. Here's the information. This is what you need to know. And you do an examination to test your level, like your metric of understanding.

Brittany Douglas [00:09:52]:

So time management is invaluable, and I think that really honing in on what study techniques are the most productive for you, whether you're auditory or visual. Do you rewrite notes? Are charts helpful? Do videos help you? And again, I tell a lot of students, don't rely heavily on ten different sources. Sometimes that's almost a disadvantage. Too much information from too many different places can be more confusing. Try to find one or two things that work really well for you. Focus on those and leverage them that way.

Christopher Lewis [00:10:21]:

I know that recently you were also awarded a National Health Policy Fellowship, and that was big news. So tell me about this fellowship and what that means for you and what that means for your future career.

Brittany Douglas [00:10:37]:

Health Policy Fellowship really focuses on different health care bills or laws that need to be put in place to better provide care to our patients. Whether that's affordability, whether that's accessibility, whether it's limitations on the way Pas can prescribe. Kind of a silly thing. I'll bring up for an example Pas. We manage diabetic patients, we manage their medications, we order labs to manage their diabetes. But interestingly, we're not allowed to certify that they need diabetic shoes, which is kind of a silly thing, right? So those types of things and what Health Policy Fellowship does is it teaches you how to meet with these different lawmakers, how to meet with their staff, and how to get these bills kind of put in motion. Again, community service is really important to me. And so seeing the deficits in the community, how can we improve effectiveness, cost, how can we lower the cost for patient care and increase accessibility for patients? All of these things are like the key components of what bills in a bill, like being, whether it's with the House or like the Senate, either way, moving these bills up so that we can get them passed.

Christopher Lewis [00:11:41]:

I know as a part of that program, you attended a workshop recently on policy and advocacy. But you also, as a part of that, were developing a community advocacy project that you're working on. Talk to me about that and what you learned as a part of that workshop and what you are planning to do as a part of your project.

Brittany Douglas [00:12:03]:

So the workshop, we went over several different bills. We went over different things that are currently being talked about, things that they're trying to propenciate, like into law. I actually went to Capitol Hill in Lansing and did some advocacy work there with some local senators and delegates. And then I went to Washington DC just two weeks ago and met with Staffords From, Debbie Stabenog, Gary Peters, Dan Kilde, which is like Genesee County, met with all of them to discuss these same bills with them and express the importance and how these can prove to be an advantage overall for patient care. That's the most important thing. So I have a really cool project, and it's hard because I can't give you all the details just yet, but I am actively working with some great leaders and people in the health policy arena as far as like, legislative topics for physician assistance. And I'm developing a way for all eleven PA schools. There's eleven PA schools in Michigan that matriculate over 500 PA students annually.

Brittany Douglas [00:12:57]:

And I think that it's really a missed market because being a new PA student, you don't necessarily understand what laws are being passed or what restrictions there are in practice, different obstacles or challenges that we can incur in practice. And so this is kind of going to be a group where students from all of these schools can get together and learn, what are the restrictions, what can I do to get involved, how do I make a change, how do I impact my community in a positive way?

Christopher Lewis [00:13:20]:

So you are out on your clinicals right now, and you're seeing that light at the end of the tunnel. So I guess two questions. First and foremost, you're on your clinicals and you're utilizing what you've learned in the classroom over the last two years. How do you feel? Do you feel prepared? Are you ready for the work that you're doing? Or are there pieces that you're like, I wish I had known this prior to being in the clinical time, and then also as you think about your future, where are you headed?

Brittany Douglas [00:13:51]:

Yeah, so I think Didactic year, which is your year with your books, that's the year you sit down and you learn all the materials. When you're in Didactic year, you learn it in modules. So cardiac, pulmonary, GI. And so when you learn them broken up in segments like that, you're really kind of mastering that one particular topic. When you go into clinical year, you have to take all the information that you've learned and really tie it all together. How do I manage these patients? How do I help this person? And that's really important to translate it that way that you can't look at it like, oh, my textbook says this because all patients look different, right? So I feel unbelievably well prepared. Like, I do really well sitting down with patients and developing management plans and building rapport with them and really kind of delving deep into getting to know them better. I think the program has done an excellent job of preparing me for clinical rotations.

Brittany Douglas [00:14:38]:

Where do I think I'm going to go from here? I did my elective in cardiothoracic surgery. I really enjoyed that. It's pretty challenging. And cardiac ICU management is, of course, very challenging, and I'm heavily considering that option in my future.

Christopher Lewis [00:14:51]:

Well, with 13 years of experience in surge tech experience, I would guess that that makes a lot of sense that taking all that experience, the training that you've had in the past, and the years of patient care that you've been able to have and put it into the next level makes perfect sense. Now, as you look back at your graduate education, and I said it could be looking back at the biology degree now, your physician assistant degree, I'm sure that there are things that, as you look back, you say to yourself, if I had only known. And as you think about that, what are some tips that you might offer to other students, whether they're going into a biology degree, a business degree, a physician assistant degree, whatever it might be that would help them to find success sooner?

Brittany Douglas [00:15:40]:

I would really put emphasis on the foundational concepts when I say that. I mean, like physiology, to understand the root cause, what is going on on a cellular or a molecular level for these people. This goes back to my molecular degree. Right, but that's okay. When you start with a foundational, a really strong foundation, I understand what's happening on a cellular level with this patient's disease process. It allows you so much better to be like, oh, that's why these treatment plans work for these patients. Or, oh, that's why there's a contraindication for this medication and this patient population. And so if you don't have that basis of understanding whether it's in anything, especially medicine, if you're missing that really basic level of understanding of biology concepts, you're kind of at a disadvantage because medicine cannot be mastered with memorization.

Brittany Douglas [00:16:30]:

You have to understand what is happening, what is the pathophysiology. I definitely put emphasis on pathophysiology anatomy. Anatomy is another one and really put in focus. And I know sometimes when you're sitting in these classes, you're like, oh, wow, this is super in depth. When I look at this. Do you really need to understand that? I remember learning about the cardiac cycle and thinking, do you really need to know all these things? Yes, you do. In order to clinically practice medicine, there's a lot of things to focus on, and I would say the more time you spend with those foundational concepts and really, really mastering them, you're only setting yourself up for success.

Christopher Lewis [00:17:06]:

Well, Brittany, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for everything that you've shared today. And I am looking forward to learning more about your success post PA school because I know that there is a ton of opportunities that await you beyond our program. And I just want to say thank you for being here today and for sharing this journey with us.

Brittany Douglas [00:17:29]:

Thank you so much for your time. I love sharing this. So happy to answer any questions.

Christopher Lewis [00:17:33]:

The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education, whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit our website to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

Welcome to the Victors in Grad School podcast, this week we interview Chip Evans, the Assistant Director of Disability Services at the University of Michigan-Flint. We explore Chip's own graduate school journey, discuss accommodations for graduate students with disabilities, and offer valuable insights on succeeding in graduate education.

Chip Evans starts by emphasizing the importance of embracing each student's unique journey in graduate school. The goal is success, and there are various ways to achieve it, with the right preparation.

The podcast is structured to feature guests who share their own graduate school experiences and resources to help listeners navigate their academic journeys. Chip Evans, as an Assistant Director of Disability Services, provides valuable insights into the accommodations available for students with disabilities in graduate programs.

Dr. Lewis and Chip delve into Chip's own journey, starting with his background in computer information systems during his undergraduate degree. He shares how working on campus as an undergraduate student, especially as a tutor, sparked his interest in higher education. This eventually led him to pursue a graduate degree in educational leadership, which opened doors to various roles in higher education, including disability services.

Chip's transition from in-person undergraduate programs to an entirely online format for his graduate studies is highlighted. The key adjustment for him was effective time management due to the flexibility and self-paced nature of online education.

The conversation then focuses on how Chip's graduate degree prepared him for his current role. The program provided him with a broader understanding of higher education, faculty evaluation, budgeting, and the inner workings of institutions, enabling him to communicate effectively with university leadership.

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to discussing disability services in graduate education. Chip points out that, for the most part, the services offered to graduate and undergraduate students are quite similar, particularly concerning testing accommodations, note-taking assistance, and accessible materials. The discussion also addresses the stigmas and misconceptions surrounding disability services.

Chip highlights the need for open conversations and breaking the stigma around disabilities. The podcast suggests that disabilities should be seen as neutral and not as something that makes someone less capable. Education should be accessible to everyone.

The episode provides advice for students pursuing graduate education, emphasizing the importance of knowing and utilizing available resources, even if you don't require accommodations. It's crucial to understand that seeking assistance when needed is not a sign of weakness. Graduate programs are challenging, and it's okay to ask for help and support.

The podcast wraps up by mentioning the diverse graduate programs offered by the University of Michigan Flint and encourages students to explore their educational options. Dr. Lewis reminds listeners that they're on the journey to become "Victors in Grad School" and that he looks forward to accompanying them through their graduate school experiences.

This episode of "Victors in Grad School" provides valuable insights into graduate school experiences, the accommodations available for students with disabilities, and the importance of open dialogue and eliminating stigmas surrounding disabilities in higher education. Chip Evans' own journey is an inspiring example of how one can find success in graduate school.

This podcast is brought to you by The Office of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan-Flint. If you're still wondering about other things to consider when it comes to graduate school, you can also contact the Office of Graduate Programs at UM-Flint. We're here to answer questions Monday – Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. EST. You can also find out more about the 50+ programs that the university has to offer here.

TRANSCRIPT

Christopher Lewis [00:00:02]:

Welcome to the Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Christopher Lewis

Welcome back to Victors in grad school. I'm your host, dr. Christopher Lewis, director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, I love being able to sit down with you, to work with you, to talk with you about the journey that you're on, because every person's journey is just a little bit different. And it's important to be able to look at this no matter where you are in the journey, to be able to identify things that you can do right from the get go, to prepare yourself to be successful throughout graduate school. All of us want to be successful. All of us want that experience in grad school where you're going to be successful and there's lots of different things that you can do to be able to do just that.

Christopher Lewis [00:01:00]:

This podcast has been set up so that every week I bring on great guests, people that have had different experiences themselves in their own graduate experiences. But beyond that, many of them have resources or other things that they can share with you to be able to help you in this journey that you're on this week. We've got another great guest with us today. Chip Evans is with us today and he's the Assistant Director of Disability Services at the University of Michigan Flint. We're going to be talking to him about his own graduate school journey, but also about some of the things that you may need to think about, especially if you may need some accommodation during graduate school and also things that people might forget about as they're thinking about graduate school as well. Chip, thanks so much for being here today.

Chip Evans [00:01:48]:

Thank you, Chris. Thanks for having me. I appreciate you giving me some time to talk about this important topic and I'd like to share everything I can.

Christopher Lewis [00:01:55]:

I really appreciate you being here. And I think first and foremost, I'd love to learn a little more about your own graduate school experience, because I know you did your undergraduate and graduate degrees at Baker College, and at some point you went through you got your bachelor's degree in computer information systems. And at some point during that journey, you decided, I need to go further. I want to go further. What was it that made you decide that you wanted to go to graduate school?

Chip Evans [00:02:22]:

So for me it was my career path. When I was an undergraduate student, I worked on campus as a student worker. I was a tutor in our learning support center and that gave me an opportunity to meet a lot of the staff, the deans, the instructors and make those connections there. And I really liked that environment. I really wanted to kind of pursue a career in higher education, and that's kind of what led me to that. So while I was working as a tutor in undergraduates, when I graduated, I had the opportunity to teach some classes as well once I finished up my undergraduate and do some other things within that. And that led to a position as an academic advisor, which is kind of like my introduction into kind of the higher education career. And that's kind of where I got into disability services as well.

Chip Evans [00:03:09]:

I was the first academic advisor at Baker College in Allen Park downriver campus that was just growing at the time. And as with a lot of smaller campuses, you wear a lot of different hats. So I believe it was my second day in the job. They're like, oh, by the way, we're going to have you work with disabled students as well. So that was kind of my introduction there. And just working through that path, I was like, okay, really for this graduate degree would really be beneficial in not only understanding the field in general of higher education, but being able to move up the ladder and have different opportunities. So that's what led me to pursuing my graduate degree.

Christopher Lewis [00:03:45]:

You got through that graduate degree. You found success in that graduate school journey. And there a lot of times is a transition that you have to go through as you go from your undergraduate work to your graduate work, even if you stay at the same institution. So what did you have to do to be able to set yourself up for success and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your graduate school journey?

Chip Evans [00:04:06]:

So, for me, the big change was the environment. An undergraduate, it was mostly an in person program, a few online classes. My graduate degree was 100% online, and I was working at the time, so I really was looking for that. That was the opportunity I was looking for because it offered the flexibility that I could work on my classwork when I was able to. I didn't have to spend the entire evening in a classroom once or twice a week. So I like that online environment, and that was the biggest change in that. I did have quite a gap between my undergraduate and my graduate, so it wasn't quite as much of a shock because I was working during that time and being again in the higher education realm, I had an understanding of it. But that was the big changes is just going from that in person environment to the entirely online where you are very much being at a self pace. You have to make sure you're maintaining things and setting up your own boundaries. And there's not like that classroom time to build around. You have to kind of do that on your own.

Christopher Lewis [00:05:01]:

So let's delve a little bit deeper into that. So as you said, you had some definite transitions, some things that you had to do to be able to shift that mindset, to get out of the in person mentality? What did you have to do to be able to do that? Because so many graduate programs right now are online, and when you're transitioning from that in person learning to online learning, as you said, there is a different way of thinking, a different way of doing. What did you have to do to be able to do that for yourself?

Chip Evans [00:05:29]:

I think a big part of it was time management. Being able to set time aside for classwork and being mindful of that. I think you have to do that a lot more with online learning than you do with in person, because you have to be able to make sure you're participating in things and getting things done. You can do it on your time, but you want to make sure you're being personal. You're doing it on purpose and making sense time aside just for that. So that's the one thing that I found to be helpful, is I set time aside just to work on that. That was what I was doing. Sometimes there were things rushing at the end, but being able to get things done in time and meeting those deadlines, I think that was really one of the big changes for me, is just that time management part of it.

Christopher Lewis [00:06:09]:

You did your undergraduate work in computer science. You moved into a master's degree in educational leadership. As you look at the work that you did in your undergrad, the work that you did in your graduate work, now that you've completed that Master's degree, how do you feel that that graduate degree prepared you for the work that you're doing on a daily basis?

Chip Evans [00:06:29]:

Working on higher ed, it gave me more of an insight of the institution overall. A lot of the coursework was focused on faculty evaluation and budgeting and kind of the overall operations of an institution. It gave me that aspect that I don't see on a regular basis during my day to day job and that it was able to inform me of why decisions are made. Been able to inform me of when I prepare things that I feel need to be done, that I know how to present them in a way that would make sense to leadership and would fit their goals and their needs. So I think that's really combined well with what I do because it gave me that deeper mindset of what it takes to run a college or university.

Christopher Lewis [00:07:12]:

Now you are working in disability services. You work with students that are needing accommodations at the undergraduate the graduate level. You're working with them to traverse higher education and figure out what is going to help them define success in that journey. And you talked about the fact that you started as an undergraduate student working on campus and helping on campus and wanted to stay in that talk to me about what led you into wanting to work in disability services? What was it about that specific area that really drew you in and made you want to make a career out of that?

Chip Evans [00:07:48]:

So, like I mentioned, working at smaller campuses like I was, you wear a lot of different hats, and disability services was one of the hats I was wearing at the time. Some of the other ones was tutoring, learning support, academic advising. I was in charge of a library for a while, so wore a lot of different hats at a lot of different times. But disability services to me was always the most interesting because each situation, each student you work with presented a different challenge, a different situation. Even students with the same diagnosis, it could affect them very differently. So it was never the same thing. Nothing was ever cookie cutter with it. So it presented the biggest challenge with that and also the biggest rewards, because then you could work with someone who may need help and may need just kind of that guidance into navigating the higher education system and you can provide that and see those effects. So to me, it was always the most interesting. I always liked the legal aspect to it. I like the way technology has really guided the field and having an undergraduate in technology has really helped with that. So to me it was always the most interesting. So that's why I wanted to continue down that route and pursue the disability services area.

Christopher Lewis [00:08:56]:

So talking about students that you work with currently or students that you've worked with in the past, as you go through your undergraduate experience, many students will tie into the needs that they have, and sometimes they bring that from high school. As I've worked with graduate students, I've seen that sometimes graduate students pull back and don't always ask for what they need. Have you found that to be true? And if so, why are you seeing that?

Chip Evans [00:09:26]:

You definitely do see that. I think a big part of that is the stigma associated with being disabled, with disabilities, with mental health that present challenges to people too. Just to say, this is what I need, these are the challenges I'm encountering, this underlying condition affected with that, and what can we do to assist with that? So I think that stigma is a big part of it, that we're still fighting. It is getting better, I would say. I would notice, really, since the return to campus from COVID a lot more students have been more forthcoming with that and are more willing to ask for help, which is encouraging. But I think that stigma is still there. I still hear from a lot of students, they don't want people to think less of them for requesting accommodation. So that's something we have to work on.

Chip Evans [00:10:10]:

And just look at really, the identity of being disabled, that there's lots of non apparent disabilities at all levels. Me and myself, I have non apparent disabilities and I see that it's again through all different levels, all different levels of students, and all throughout campus, every department, every area, I see disabled students involved in. And it might not be apparent, but it's important to know in combating that stigma, is that it is a normal thing. It's not a good thing, it's not a bad thing, it's just a thing. And there are tools in place that can help you if your environment is making it so you can't access everything.

Christopher Lewis [00:10:45]:

The way you should as you're thinking about graduate school. And maybe you did have services when you were going through undergrad. How do services for graduate students differ? Or how are they the same when it comes to looking at the types of services that students can access, really.

Chip Evans [00:11:03]:

Between undergraduate and graduate, they are very much the same. Most of the graduate students I see fit into one or two different situations. Either they've used accommodations in undergraduate, they know exactly what they need and they just say, look, this is what I had, here's what I need, this is what worked for me. And great, we put those into place. And then the other situation is students that didn't use accommodations previously, they had other coping mechanisms, maybe they didn't need an accommodation, but now they're finding out in graduate school that just requires a little bit deeper thought. I wouldn't say it's necessarily harder, it's just a different way of thinking and you think a little bit deeper into things and they're like, look, I can do this, I'm just running out of time on my exam, or things in the classroom are distracting me and I'm not able to focus on it. So those are when we look at kind of the new accommodations to put into place. But a lot of times those are very similar to what someone would get in undergraduate as well.

Chip Evans [00:11:59]:

There's still the testing accommodations, which are most popular ones, extended testing time, a distraction, reduced testing area. We offer Notetaking assistance and we have technology of software programs that can assist students in taking notes and recording lectures and matching that up with different Notetaking solutions, accessing printed materials. So those are really the big categories and really they're very similar to undergraduate. So it's just determining again, in how the individual is affected by an individual student and then what accommodations we can put into place for that.

Christopher Lewis [00:12:32]:

Now there are times that individuals may not have used services in undergrad and find that the increased rigor, the different way of education, brings up things that maybe they dealt with in high school, or maybe they have to go and get some testing to figure out what's going on because of the differences as well. If someone is finding that they're struggling and they are thinking, I'm going to get some testing, if they want to move forward to consider getting accommodations at a university campus. What are some of the steps, or what are the steps that a student typically has to follow? What do they need to provide to a campus to be able to be considered for those accommodations?

Chip Evans [00:13:23]:

So I think the first step would be to have a conversation with the disability services office because the needs for the institution could vary greatly. Like me personally here at U of Influent, I like to listen to the students experience, particularly with a graduate student, because there is a high level of academic success there previously through their undergraduate. So once they get to that level, they know themselves more than anybody else is going had, especially if they had an early diagnosis, maybe they had an IEP in high school or was diagnosed with ADHD when they were younger. Let's have that conversation for testing before you invest time or money into that, let's have a conversation. Let's see if there's enough background there that we could provide accommodations without anything additional. Because again, their experience is going to be most important to me in that process. Because if they said, hey undergraduate, I was fine. I may have taken the whole time to take an exam, but I was able to finish in time.

Chip Evans [00:14:19]:

These are my coping mechanisms that I had, these are the tools that I use. But it's just not quite working now with that extra rigor, with that different way of thinking, I just need a little bit more time for things, or I just want to make sure that I get a more thorough set of notes because I may not have needed to take notes previously I was able to memorize things. So let's have that conversation first and see what we can do, and we'll help you determine a plan from there. If further testing would be beneficial, we can help you go that route. But if we're able to do accommodations with what you have, always like to use what the students already have, and then base accommodations based on that, great, we can start with that.

Christopher Lewis [00:14:56]:

Is there anything that students are misinformed about that typically you're having to reframe, that you're having to have them think about in a different way, that you're constantly getting in your office, that students should know now before they run into that same situation.

Chip Evans [00:15:16]:

I think the main thing is just going back to that stigma, that thought that being disabled makes you less than, that's not true. It's just part of who you are. It's not a good thing, it's not a bad thing, it's neutral. It just means that in some situations there may be barriers created that you're not able to access everything. So you need accommodations for that or some different, ideally change the environment so those barriers aren't there. But in the meantime, there may be things we put into place. So I think that's the main thing. It's just, again, that stigma associated with disabilities or with mental health conditions. That is not a bad thing. It's just part of who we are. I think that the latest statistics is about 27% of the US. Population has some type of disability. So it's the largest minority group. It's one that anybody can become part of at any time. So there's lots of people out there in that same situation and it's just a matter of determining what's going to be best for them. So I think that's probably the main key to keep in mind.

Christopher Lewis [00:16:17]:

You've given a number of pieces of advice, things that you've thought of in regard to your own experience, things that you've experienced with students that work with you on a regular basis as we finish up today. As you look back at your own graduate education and maybe the experiences that you've had in sitting down and talking with other graduate students along your experience, what are some tips that you might offer to others considering graduate education that will help them find success sooner?

Chip Evans [00:16:47]:

I think one, knowing your resources, knowing those departments that are there to help you if you do have a previous disability or have a diagnosis. Knowing what services are there, even if you don't want to put those into place yet. Just knowing that it's there. Knowing, like the writing center, any tutoring assistance, any writing assistance that's available that is there and how to access it and be willing to use it if need be. There's no shame in asking for help when you need it because graduate programs can get rigorous, they do require some deeper thought and it can be a challenge that's the whole idea of it is to challenge yourself and to grow. And sometimes a little bit of assistance is needed and that's okay.

Christopher Lewis [00:17:28]:

Well, Chip, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for everything that you do to support students here at the University of Michigan Flint. But also thank you for sharing your own experience and the journey that you went on and sharing some of the experiences that you've had with other graduate students that can help individuals that may need accommodations or may not in setting the tone and setting the trajectory for themselves on how they can prepare to find success sooner. I really appreciate your time today and I appreciate you being here.

Chip Evans [00:17:58]:

Thanks for having me. It was a great time.

Christopher Lewis [00:18:00]:

The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education, whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit Graduate programs to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

Graduate school is often described as a journey—one full of unique challenges, opportunities, and moments of growth. In the latest episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Abigail Weycker, a double master's degree student at the University of Michigan-Flint, to unpack what it takes to thrive as a grad student.

Unlocking Opportunities: Dual Degrees and Joint Programs

One of the main themes Abigail discusses is the value of joint degree programs, such as the university's Four-Plus-One track. Many don't realize these programs exist until someone points them out, as was Abigail's experience. By strategically double-counting certain courses, she's able to fast-track her journey, save both time and money, and ultimately earn an MBA alongside an MS in Leadership and Organizational Dynamics (MSLOD).

Dr. Lewis emphasizes the importance of investigating whether your institution offers such programs, as they can offer incredible opportunities for growth and advancement.

Transition and Mindset: Embracing the Graduate Challenge

Transitioning from undergraduate coursework to graduate-level expectations requires more than just academic skill—it's about shifting your mindset. Abigail shares how meticulous planning and using a color-coded planner has been crucial for her success, along with meeting consistently with academic advisors. Their guidance ensures she's on track, understands course sequencing, and discovers new opportunities—like adding her second master's—she might otherwise have missed.

Making the leap from "just another day of school" to treating graduate work as an investment in her future, Abigail highlights how "taking it day by day, or even minute by minute" can help manage stress and keep you moving forward.

Building Relationships and Community

Another powerful theme from this episode is the importance of building relationships—both with faculty and fellow students. Abigail explains that being proactive about connecting with professors and staff transformed her experience. It not only made learning easier but also enriched her network, opening doors she never expected.

Advice for Future Grad Students

"Dip your toe in and try," Abigail encourages future grad students. Go at your own pace, build connections, and remember: your journey is unique. The support you cultivate, both academically and personally, can make all the difference.

For anyone considering graduate school—or currently navigating it—this episode is packed with practical wisdom, honest reflections, and encouragement. Listen to the full conversation to get inspired and equipped for your own grad school journey.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find.

Abigail Weycker [00:00:08]:
Success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]:
Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to talk to you about this journey that. That you're on. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. You are looking at graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:32]:
Maybe you are. You've already applied to graduate school. Maybe you're already in graduate school. No matter where you are, there are things that you can do today, right now that will help you to be able to find success in that journey. And that's why this podcast exists. This podcast is here to help you to be able to learn from other people, other people that are currently going through the graduate school, that have gone through graduate school. Maybe they've been out of graduate school for some time, but they can still provide you with some of those building blocks, some of those things that they learned along the way that can help you as well. Today we got another great guest.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:08]:
Abigail Weycker is with us. And Abigail is a student at the University of Michigan, Flint. She is actually in two different master's degrees at the same time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:19]:
And she started the first master's degree while she was an undergraduate student. So we're going to be talking to her about the journey that she has been on toward where she's going, and I'm really excited to be able to introduce her to you today. Abigail, thanks so much for being here.

Abigail Weycker [00:01:33]:
Yeah, no problem. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:35]:
It is my pleasure. And I guess one of the things that I want to do first and foremost is I want to go back in time. I know that you were a undergraduate student at the University of Michigan, Flint, and at some point in time, you had something in your head that said to you, I want to go further. I want to go beyond the bachelor's degree, and I want to start my graduate degree while I'm an undergraduate student. So bring me back to that point and what was going through your head?

Abigail Weycker [00:02:02]:
Yeah, so I honestly didn't know about the joint four plus one program until I want to say, the end of my sophomore year, beginning of my junior year. And I believe it was one of our marketing assistants at the time, Audrey Banks, she had just made a flyer for it, like one of those big, gigantic flyers. You know what I'm talking about? And I was like, what is that? So I went and I talked to Tamika and Rachel, and I talked to them about what the four plus one program entails. And they told me about how you can essentially double count a few undergrad classes that are also master's level classes, and they would count towards both your undergraduate degree and your master's degree, so you can do them simultaneously. And I was like, okay, so essentially you can knock out a year worth of master's classes while also going to get your undergrad degree. So then that's why it's called four plus one. So then you only have one year of your solely, just your master's afterwards.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:01]:
So full stop there, everyone. I'm going to talk a little bit about this because at the institution that you may be at, if you're an undergraduate student right now, one of the things to look at is, does your institution have a joint degree program? If they have a joint degree program in a program that you're interested in, it might be something to look into. Every university that has these type of programs set them up in different ways. And the way in which they are set up here at the University of Michigan Flint does allow for students to double count, meaning that you are taking graduate courses as an undergraduate student, and those credits transfer back down to complete bachelor's degree requirements, while at the same time working toward requirements for the master's degree as well. So that being said, you can, as Abigail just said, save some time, save some money potentially, and continue working toward your goal. Now, as I said, not every university has these, so it's not going to work with everybody. But it can't hurt to look into it further, especially if there are areas that you are interested in that have these type of programs that are available and you want to start early if you can identify what's there. Because if you can start taking them in your junior year, maybe or your senior year, you want to prepare yourself for that so that you are talking to academic advisors and preparing ahead of time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:22]:
Now, Abigail, you decided to do a joint degree program for the mba. Talk to me about that. Why the mba, and why did you decide that that was the right graduate program for you?

Abigail Weycker [00:04:34]:
Yeah, so I started with the MBA because it just was the logical choice for me to go from Bachelor's to Master's of Business Administration. It just sounded right. And then again, I was talking with Tamika Shepherd. She's a graduate advisor at U of M Flint, and she had mentioned that going for my mslod because my focus for my master's in the MBA is HR and Marketing. And MSLOD is more hr, solely focused. So she mentioned that doing the MSLOD would only be four more classes. So it would only take me one extra semester because I'm taking three classes at a time, which you don't have to do. That's just how I'm doing it.

Abigail Weycker [00:05:15]:
So I'm going full time. So she said it would only be four extra classes. So realistically that's only one extra semester for me. Technically I'm graduating twice. I'm graduating with my MBA in April of 26 and then my MSLOD in December of 26. So I was already going summer for one extra class for my MBA anyways. So I just added two MSLOD and then went forward in the fall.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:38]:
And I'm going to break down these acronyms. Mslod, Master of Science in Leadership and Organizational Dynamics. Now, what Abigail was just talking about here at the University of Michigan, Flint, we call a dual degree. Many universities, dual degrees are possible. That basically just means that you are joining two different graduate degrees together. And usually if you are combining different degrees together, there's some type of an overlap between those degrees like Abigail just said. And they don't have to always be in the same academic area. So for example, you could be studying nursing and also get an MBA because you might want to do executive leadership in nursing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:19]:
So there are ways in which which you can partner different degrees together. Every institution is different and the number of credits that you can double count will be different because of that. But it's again a way for you to be able to maximize the time that you are in graduate school and be able to really focus in on those areas that you truly have an interest in as you move forward. Now, Abigail, as you were transitioning into your first graduate degree, there are definite transitions. You're going from the way in which you're educated as an undergraduate student. You were still an undergraduate student while you're taking graduate courses. And there are different expectations, there's different expectations of graduate students. Faculty are going to treat you differently, expect different things.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:06]:
And you have to figure that out as you are going along. Talk to me about that transition for yourself because you have found success in this journey thus far. So as you started your graduate program, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your graduate school journey?

Abigail Weycker [00:07:26]:
Yeah, it kind of sounds cliche, but the biggest thing for me is keeping a planner. I'll mark down, I'll go through the syllabus or syllabi, the first day of the new semester, and write down all of the due dates in the planner in different colors. And then that way I can mark them off when the assignment is done. And then mentally that just makes me feel a lot better and makes me not stress out about missing something as much. So with grad school, you're going to get a lot more, I wouldn't say a lot more assignments, but you're gonna get a lot more in depth assignments. So there's gonna be more parts, there's gonna be more to it, there's gonna be longer essays. So it's gonna take more time than maybe just your typical practice of maybe doing it the day before that. It's not something that you can do in grad school anymore.

Abigail Weycker [00:08:10]:
And that's okay. I mean it just, it's, it's all about car. That's why I use the planner, because it's all about carving out the time that I need to successful assignments on time and to the best of my ability. And then another big strength or recommendation that I have is consistently meeting with your advisor. I know everybody tells you that and everybody tells, oh, me with your advisor regularly, blah, blah, blah. And it kind of seems a pain in the butt, but it really, really, really does help because if you end up trying to advise yourself, you could screw yourself into another semester or preparing money for a class you didn't need. And you won't know that until you get evaluated by an advisor and they're like, actually, I don't know about that. And you're like, oh, okay.

Abigail Weycker [00:08:56]:
And you won't know your options until you talk with an advisor either. Like, I wouldn't have known about the mslod, the joint MBA MSLOD program if Tameka hadn't mentioned it to me. So it's important to make sure that you establish that connection and keep that connection and meet with them at least once a semester.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:13]:
Completely agree with you. Too often I've seen students do what you just said, which was self advisement. Especially if they're in a program that might not be cohort based and they are just looking at a catalog and saying, oh, that sounds kind of interesting. What if I took this course? Or if they see, oh, I have to take this course and maybe I'll take this or maybe I'll take this next term, not realizing that a course is only offered once every other semester. So sitting down with an advisor is definitely an important piece because you can then look at that schedule and Say, well, what makes the most sense? And you might learn something, something about a joint degree or a dual degree program. You might learn about a specific class that you really have to take this term, unless you want to have a delay.

Abigail Weycker [00:09:59]:
That was a big one for me, was figuring out certain classes only are offered certain semesters. And you wouldn't know that unless you know the back end or you've experienced it in the past and know to look for it. It is embedded within our websites and places. But unless you have any idea about that being an option or an issue, potential issue, you don't know to look.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:21]:
So talking about some of the transitions you went through as you move into graduate school, there are mindset shifts that you do have to go through as well. Talk to me about what mindset shifts did you have to make to succeed in graduate school?

Abigail Weycker [00:10:35]:
I think for me really is it made me realize that I'm an adult now. These are big steps to go forward, and these are the step that are going to ensure a good future for me and a good future career for me. I think it's pretty typical now that a lot of companies want you to have your master's, especially in certain topics like education likes it and business likes it. I mean, it's not guaranteed and it's not required, obviously, but some companies like it. And so realizing that and putting myself in those shoes makes me realize that getting these two masters is going to make me more attractive to certain companies and I could be more likely to get my dream job quicker than someone else who might not have those experiences. And it's taken a lot for me to shift my thinking like that because I was like, oh, it's just another day of school. Oh, it's just another day of school. Okay, now I've got my bachelor's degree.

Abigail Weycker [00:11:29]:
Okay, now I'm working on my master's. Okay, now the next step after that is a job. So you basically switch from a child or kid mindset to, okay, every day I go to school now. And then you're like, oh, I'm an adult. This is for something. This means something.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:46]:
So as you think about the classes that you've taken, the other students that you've interacted with, you started graduate school young. There are many people in your program that probably stepped out and came back. Maybe they were working and going to school at the same time. So they're bringing different perspectives into the classroom. Talk to me about that experience for you as someone that that was young in your graduate courses and what that experience was like for you.

Abigail Weycker [00:12:12]:
Yeah. So I considered doing that. And it's totally okay if you do. There's no judgment, no hate, no anything. But I just know myself and I know that for the last 13 years before I started college, all I've known was school. And then the four years of my undergrad, all I've known was school. And then I started working. So I was worried that if I stopped, had a family, had kids, got a full time job, that I would be like, oh, I'm done with school and try to come back and be like, I don't, I don't know how to get back in the groove anymore.

Abigail Weycker [00:12:46]:
So that, that's just how I knew personally myself. And I was like, right now is the perfect time to do it. Especially with the credits double counting, I was at an advantage. So I'm like, I need to take this advantage now. I definitely do notice that I am the youngest in most of my classes, if not all of them. It's a little bit intimidating because I feel like I don't have the workforce and day to day experience that a lot of them have. But it's nice because they end up mentoring me in a way, so they end up giving me perspectives that I may have never thought about if I wasn't in this class right now. I may have them if I went and got a career right after my bachelor's and then came back, but I didn't and I went straight into master's.

Abigail Weycker [00:13:27]:
So I'm straight in the learning portion, not in the real world experience portion. So having a class with those that went right into the real world world experience portion helps us to mesh together the ideas of both.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:39]:
The relationships that you build between as a undergraduate student, between faculty and student is a little bit different. The relationships that typically you're building in graduate school with faculty as well. So talk to me about how you built those relationships, how it might have been different between being an undergraduate student and a graduate student for yourself in the different degrees that you're working on.

Abigail Weycker [00:14:03]:
But.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:04]:
And what did you do to be able to build those strong relationships?

Abigail Weycker [00:14:08]:
The same way it's important to reach out to your advisors and connect with them. It's important to reach out to your faculty and your staff and reach out to them and keep a connection up with them. Especially being at a smaller university, at being at U of M Flint, that was one of my big draws to come here is because I was looking at Ann Arbor, I was looking at Michigan State, and those are classes of upwards of maybe 100 200, 300 people, depending. So you're just going to be another head in the classroom, which that's fine if that. But for me, I. Even in high school and stuff like that, I love the connection between me and my teachers first, not even just a first name basis, but just knowing more about them and knowing their life and then finding a connection. And then we'd end up having a conversation about something I probably would have never known about them. So that's a big thing, is reaching out and finding those connections and feeling comfortable to talk to your professors.

Abigail Weycker [00:14:59]:
Because if I don't understand something, I don't want to feel scared to go to them. I don't want to feel scared to try and learn a concept and say, hey, I might need another Zoom meeting about this. Hey, I might need another one on one session about this. I don't, I don't understand. So it's about being not afraid to approach them and build it further than just school. Because. Because if you build it further than just school, then you're building your network eventually for your future. And then the change from undergrad to grad.

Abigail Weycker [00:15:27]:
Again, this is probably going to sound cliche, but I feel like in a graduate setting, you're looked at as more of an adult, you're looked at as more of an equal. And they treat you like that. Like there are professors on a graduate level that will end up, not that there's not any on the undergrad level, but they'll like, joke with you and tell them about the night before and blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's great because then you build that, that connection deeper than just a classroom level. And then you feel more comfortable talking to them about certain things personally or professionally.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:57]:
You also, as you've gone through undergrad into grad, you've worked on campus and you've been a part of student staff and have continued to do that in your gradu graduate degree as well. And I have told students as they go into graduate school, if they're not working full time, they should get involved on campus. They should find ways to be able to connect with people in a different way. Talk to me about your experience as a student employee on campus and what that's been like for you in balancing not only the work that you're doing in class, but also outside of class.

Abigail Weycker [00:16:31]:
So I will say, before I even started college, I looked into, um, Flint and reached out and figured out what organizations on campus there were that I could join. And granted, I joined a lot and then didn't Follow through with them because it got overwhelming. But there were a handful that I stuck with, such as the Society of Human Resources Management. I joined U of M Flint's women's club soccer team. I'm involved with a couple other things, but working on campus. I started in 2022 in the summer at School of Management as an office assistant. And it's part time, but then it's. It's also creating those deeper relationships with the staff and faculty that I wouldn't have.

Abigail Weycker [00:17:07]:
They know me on a first name basis. They know about my boyfriend, they know about my family. I know about their kids, I know about their hobbies. And you wouldn't know that if you didn't go and create those relationships. And it's nice because having an on campus job, they are almost required to. But they're nice enough to work around your school schedule. So if you're feeling overwhelmed or I need to study for this exam, hey, can I take this day off or take a couple hours to go study? And nine times out of 10, they're totally okay with it. And they totally understand because they were in your shoes one day too.

Abigail Weycker [00:17:45]:
And they understand that to be a student worker, you have to be a student first.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:50]:
Now, as you look back at your experiences going through graduate school thus far, and you think back to starting in graduate school even before you started in graduate school. What's something you wish someone had told you before you started graduate school?

Abigail Weycker [00:18:06]:
So I live by this quote now. I heard it, I want to say, last year sometime from a professor, actually. He came into the office one day and I was pulling my hair out. I was so stressed and it wasn't even work. It was just like these assignments are just piling up and everything was going crazy. And he looked at me and he was like, abby, take it day by day. If it doesn't work day by day, take it hour by hour. If it doesn't work hour by hour, take it minute by minute.

Abigail Weycker [00:18:32]:
If you have to break it down like that, get one thing done, mark that off in your head and be like, whew, I did that. Okay, onto the next thing. If you break it down more simply like that, then it's less stressful in your head and you have more of a mindset of, I can do this. I might be overwhelmed right now, but when I get this done, it's gonna feel so good and I'm gonna be so successful, it's all worth it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:55]:
I love that quote. I think that's something that anybody going through graduate school should be living by, because it can get stressful. You can feel like an imposter sometimes. There, there are definite times where you are going to be challenged in many different ways. So it is important for you to be able to look at things in small chunks, take advantage of that and get the things done you can. And just like Abby said, take it minute by minute, second by second, whatever it takes to be able to get to that finish line. Because there will be times where you're continuing to look for that light and you're keeping to walking. You're walking, you're running, you're, you know, you're doing whatever you can to be able to get to that end point, whatever that end point is.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:40]:
If it's your first masters, your second master's, whatever it may be, you've got to keep going. And I keep thinking of the old adage from Finding Nemo, just keep swimming, just keep swimming, just keep swimming. It's the same type of mantra, but you've got to keep moving forward. So, Abby, as you think about others, other people that are thinking about going to graduate school, whether it's going for an mba, whether it's going for whatever degree, and you think back to your own education thus far and what you've learned, what are some tips that you might want to offer other individuals that you might not have shared thus far that would help students find success sooner?

Abigail Weycker [00:20:20]:
Really, I would say just dip your toe in and try and if it doesn't feel successful, feel good, feel like you don't continue. If it feels amazing and you're like, wow, I can do this, I think I can see myself continuing, keep doing it class by class. And like I said, hour by hour, day by day, like you can take it as slow or as fast paced as you want to. It's. Nobody's telling you your timetable. It's completely up to what is best for you and suits you to be successful both in life and in school. And I, I wish that I was less hard on myself in that way. And even now I still am.

Abigail Weycker [00:20:57]:
But have fun with it. I mean, obviously take it seriously, grades and all that, it's important. But enjoy your time in the school, enjoy the classes, enjoy the people you meet. Make those connections. They could be lifelong connections. I met my best friend in grad school. I might not have done that. I met professors that I know are recommendations for life.

Abigail Weycker [00:21:16]:
I know that I will have connection with them for from now until forever. You don't know until you try and put that foot forward. Dip that toe in. Give it a shot.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:26]:
Great thoughts and I really appreciate you sharing all of this today, Abby. And I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing all of this today and for all the work that you're doing to engage with other students on campus. Abby also sits on our advisory board here at the University of Michigan Flint for our Office of Graduate Programs. So I'm always excited to be able to get her perspectives on things. So thank you for that as well. Again, getting engaged, getting involved in different ways. But Abby, I just want to say thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:55]:
Thank you for being here today, for sharing your perspectives, and I wish you all the best.

Abigail Weycker [00:21:58]:
Thank you. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:00]:
The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

In this episode of Victors in Grad School podcast, we discuss the importance of strategic preparation for graduate school with guest Helen Budd, the Program Manager for the Student Veterans Resource Center at the University of Michigan, Flint. Helen shares her own educational journey, highlighting her transition from a Bachelor of Business Administration (BBA) to a Master of Business Administration (MBA) and, later, a Master of Public Administration (MPA). She emphasizes the value of using employer benefits and resources.

Key Points Discussed:

1. Preparing for Graduate School: Helen describes her journey, explaining how she moved to the United States with diplomas from England, only to realize they held no equivalency. To find gainful employment, she worked at Cleary University, where she ultimately pursued her bachelor's degree.
2. Choosing the Right Path: Helen's decision to pursue a Master of Business Administration (MBA) arose from her employer's tuition waiver program and her commitment to using the benefits available to her. She later shifted her focus to nonprofit management, aligning her studies with her passion for service.
3. Success in Grad School: To succeed in graduate school, Helen underscores the importance of setting priorities, utilizing resources such as university libraries and online tools like Purdue Owl. She also recommends seeking guidance from instructors, advisors, and fellow students.
4. Overcoming Impostor Syndrome: Helen experienced some self-doubt when transitioning to her second master's degree. However, through encouragement from mentors and a thorough examination of her capabilities, she decided to move forward with confidence.
5. Benefits and Challenges for Veterans: Helen identifies the potential challenges veterans and military-connected students face when returning to school after a gap. She advises students to consider their priorities, such as using housing allowance payments, and to gradually adapt to the academic environment.
6. Reaching Out for Support: Helen highlights the importance of seeking help and not hesitating to ask questions, as military culture can sometimes discourage seeking assistance. Students are encouraged to contact the appropriate department coordinators for guidance.
7. Support for Military-Connected Individuals: Helen emphasizes that resources like the Veterans Readiness and Employment benefit and veteran support services are available for military-connected individuals. These services can help students navigate their education.
8. Selecting the Right Program: Research is crucial when choosing the right graduate program. Students must ensure that their desired major and program align with their goals and are approved for VA education benefits.
9. VA Approval and Elective Courses: Helen cautions students against taking courses that are not required for their program, as the VA will only cover essential coursework. Ensuring the courses you take apply to your degree is vital.

Conclusion: This podcast episode explores the importance of strategic preparation for graduate school, taking into account benefits, program selection, and available resources for military-connected individuals. Helen Budd's journey and insights serve as valuable guidance for prospective graduate students.

This podcast is brought to you by The Office of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan-Flint. If you're still wondering about other things to consider when it comes to graduate school, you can also contact the Office of Graduate Programs at UM-Flint. We're here to answer questions Monday – Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. EST. You can also find out more about the 50+ programs that the university has to offer here.

TRANSCRIPT

Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:

Welcome to the Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in grad school. I'm your host, dr. Christopher Lewis, director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week I love talking to you because each one of your journeys is just a little bit different. And it's so important to be able to think very strategically about what you're doing to prepare yourself for that educational journey that you either may already be on. You may be thinking about and you're preparing about.

Christopher Lewis [00:00:43]:

Every person goes through something just a little bit different. So whether you're going to law school, med school, you're getting an MBA, you're going to become a vet, no matter what it is, there are some specific things that you're going to have to do to get into those programs. But more holistically, there are things that every grad student must think about and can do to prepare themselves well to find success in that graduate school journey. And that's what this show is all about. This show is all about allowing you to be able to learn from others. Because every week I bring you different guests, different people that have gone before you that have had that experience of going to graduate school, are working with graduate students, or have had some other experience that will help you to find success in that journey. Today we've got another great guest with us. Helen Bud is with us.

Christopher Lewis [00:01:40]:

And Helen is the program manager for the Student Veterans Resource Center at the University of Michigan, Flint. And we're going to be talking with her about her own educational journey, but we're also going to talk about veterans and things that veterans need to be thinking about if they are planning to go to grad school. So we're going to be talking about that as well. Helen, thanks so much for joining us today.

Helen Budd [00:02:04]:

Thank you for having me today.

Christopher Lewis [00:02:06]:

It is my pleasure having you here. I love being able to talk to different people. I know that in your own educational journey, you went through a you started your degree at Cleary University, got your BBA at Cleary, and at some point during that time that you were at Cleary, you made a decision to go on. You went on from the bachelor's at Cleary to a master's degree, an MBA at Cleary. And as you were thinking about that, talk to me about what was going through your head as you made that decision that you wanted to go further and you wanted to get that graduate degree.

Helen Budd [00:02:46]:

Well, I'm going to go back a few years. Obviously, I'm not from this country. Originally, I had completed a couple of Royal Society of Arts diplomas when I lived in England, one of them as a bilingual secretary in French and one for international trade in German, both considered to be degree level diplomas. Long story short, I moved to the US and I quickly learned that those diplomas actually meant nothing over here. There was no equivalent. And in order to succeed in the US. And to get gainful employment in the US, I had to do something about it. I started working at Cleary University in 2000 as the graduate programs assistant.

Helen Budd [00:03:39]:

It was our inaugural MBA, so I was in it from the ground up, which was quite exciting, and it was a part time position. I eventually got to full time started my bachelor's journey at the university. You make choices, and I'm always a believer in using the benefits that your employer offers. So I used the tuition waiver program at Cleary, completed my bachelor's degree as a single parent, nontraditional student. Midnight spent in front of the computer, you know how it goes. And I graduated in 2005 with my bachelor's degree. I was going to start my master's degree right away, and I realized that I didn't really want to go into a business environment as such or manufacturing. And the only option at the time was the standard MBA.

Helen Budd [00:04:43]:

So I waited a year or two until we offered, or Cleary offered, the nonprofit management concentration. For me, that was an instant fit because of the work that I was already doing with our student veterans at Cleary and the fact that I have more of a service minded perspective than I do money making or operations at manufacturing. So the nonprofit degree was really the right choice for me. And I was at Cleary for 13 years. The perfect position opened up at U of M Flint, where I was able to focus just on our military connected students. That was my, and still is my passion. And I love what I do every single day. So it was a perfect fit for me.

Helen Budd [00:05:33]:

I applied for it, got the job, and I've been here ever since 2013.

Christopher Lewis [00:05:38]:

Now, you got here in 2013 during that time, and after a few years in, you made a decision to continue your education and you decided to work to get another master's degree. What made you decide to continue and to build upon the MBA that you already had?

Helen Budd [00:06:00]:

Oh, given the environment that I'm in, again, I wanted to focus more on the governmental and public administration factors that the MBA that I had done wasn't as focused on as the MPA here. So I looked at the curriculum. I didn't do it right away because it had been a few years since I had written anything in APA format that initially terrified me. The second thing was, am I good enough to get a master's degree from the University of Michigan? That was the other thing. I took a very careful look at that and then what changed my mind is that again, looking at employer benefits, I'm a big advocate of using the benefits that your employer offers, a huge advocate for that. And I looked at the MPA curriculum, I said, this suits me down to the ground. So I applied and I got all my references and everything because the work I had done for my MBA, looking back on it was incredibly challenging. It was not easy work.

Helen Budd [00:07:10]:

It was very difficult in some cases with the financial management and statistics. It wasn't an easy course by any means. So my decision was, if I can handle that, I'm definitely going to throw my hat in the ring and give this a whirl and see how it goes. Take one class at a time and then just go into it gently, get back into APA format and get back into the academic environment again and graduated two years later. And it was so worth it because I met so many great people during this program. I loved it and it suits me down to the ground because I was able to focus a lot of my coursework towards my job. And that was another reason for choosing the MPA, because I could apply it directly to my work here in the Student Veterans Resource Center and to serving my students for you.

Christopher Lewis [00:08:10]:

You said you were a non traditional student as you went through your Bachelor's, your first Master's, your second Master's, and through each of those steps, there were things that you had to do to be able to find success in those journeys. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success and what did you have to do to maintain that success? Throughout graduate school, I had to set.

Helen Budd [00:08:33]:

My priorities, make sure that I spent the appropriate amount of time on the research, the reading, using the resources that were available to me. For instance, here at, um, Flint, the library and the Purdue Owl website were my saving graces, because without those, it would have been a huge challenge. First of all, I'm older. Secondly, I'm not as technically advanced as I would have liked to be. And using those online resources and on campus resources, of course, were so helpful that I couldn't have done it without it. My first course I took the time to use the library. I must have texted them like ten times a week with questions about formatting and citations that I'd forgotten from the last ten years or so since I had completed my Master's. So using the resources, consulting with my advisor and speaking with my instructors was extremely helpful and getting the feedback from my classmates as well, definitely using the resources.

Helen Budd [00:09:51]:

The library is incredible. We have such a wonderful selection of thousands and thousands of articles and journals and everything that you could possibly want, and it is all available without having to pay for subscriptions and everything. So there's one thing I would definitely say use that library and the online resources, because they will get you through it.

Christopher Lewis [00:10:17]:

One of the things you mentioned just a little bit ago was the fact that when you transitioned into the new graduate degree at the University of Michigan Flint, the Master's of Public Administration, prior to applying and deciding to do that, there was some impostor syndrome that was creeping in. How did you get past that and push yourself to be able to get past that, to be able to then make the choice to go into that.

Helen Budd [00:10:44]:

Program, you had to do some soul searching. Realized that I'm surrounded. By some of the best academia and best staff members here in the university. And I have incredible support from everybody that I knew here. And I took a good look at myself and talked to some of my former faculty at Cleary and they said, Are you kidding? You can do this. This is going to be a breeze. You've managed to get through your MBA. What are you talking about? You're perfect for this.

Helen Budd [00:11:18]:

So I went to the head and beaten to the fire and let's just do this and not look back. But I do look back. You have to look back and be retrospective and see where you came from and where you're going forward, because not every job lasts forever. I would love to think this one would. Who knows? I'm very happy where I am and I've got no plans to leave anybody here. I love what I do, where I do it. There are always things that happen, as we know, in government and administration. You just don't know where you're going to end up.

Helen Budd [00:11:58]:

So arming myself with a second master's degree from the University of Michigan Rackham School of Graduate Studies has put me in greater competitive standing in the future and in my current endeavors, can't beat it. I'm just so pleased that I did it.

Christopher Lewis [00:12:17]:

So you've completed your degrees. You're still working at the University of Michigan Flint. How do you feel that the graduate degrees that you received prepared you for the work that you do on a daily basis?

Helen Budd [00:12:29]:

Well, there are so many things. We could be here for hours. I think going back to the MBA that I had now, being in the program manager role, I have to be more analytical managing the budget. So the work that I did during the MBA and forecasting and managing all the numbers and being more aware of what's involved with that has definitely been helpful to me. I've used those tools. I've actually even used the lean six Sigma principles towards some of my MPA work. Looking back on how we got to the root cause of a problem or an issue that we want to improve going forward and the continuous improvement of the department, I have actually applied those principles that I learned during my MBA towards the work that I'm doing here.

Christopher Lewis [00:13:25]:

So the work that you're doing at the University of Michigan Flint, and it builds on what you did at Cleary University is you are working with individuals that are connected to the armed forces. I called them veterans at the beginning, but you're working also with active duty individuals, and you've worked with individuals that have gone to get their bachelor's degree, but also those that decide to continue their education and work on that graduate degree. As you work with veterans that are looking at graduate school, what are some of the biggest challenges that those students tend to have as you're working with them?

Helen Budd [00:14:04]:

One thing that stands out is that it may have been quite a while since they attended school for their bachelor's degree. So if they're coming in to get a Master's degree like me, it was some time since the completion of my last master's, they're coming in from a bachelor's perspective, possibly, and it may have been a while since they were in a classroom setting or dealing with the intricacies of zoom and canvas. And it can be a little bit overwhelming initially. Plus, we're not getting any younger, I'll be quite frank. I think the older we get that there was some research that I had done during my MPA for my Capstone project that it can be even more overwhelming for graduate students just as it is for undergraduate students because we have different learning styles. We have jobs. Very often, we have even more to juggle than we did perhaps during our bachelor's degree days. And I think just that gap maybe between bachelor's and masters can be intimidating.

Helen Budd [00:15:16]:

So as a graduate alumnus of University of Michigan, Flint having gone through the MPA program whenever I get a prospect who's looking at the MPA or any of our degrees first thing I do is I introduce myself as having completed that MPA already and try to put their mind at ease that they have someone in their corner. I think that is the biggest factor. Take it one class at a time if you need to use your benefits towards your pursuit. Benefits get pretty complicated full time and requires eight or more credit hours each semester. That can be a little daunting at first, especially when you're just coming into grad school. So really take the time and look at what your priorities are from at the beginning. Don't overload yourself because overloading yourself you're just going to get more stressed and more overwhelmed. Most of us have families.

Helen Budd [00:16:24]:

Many of them have families and other jobs. So leaping into eight credit hours right away can be daunting. So you have to measure what is most important to you. First of all, is it the money that you get from your housing allowance? You have to get that full housing allowance. Is that the biggest factor? Or is it getting into a program part time initially until you get used to the system and the curriculum and getting back to writing papers and then maybe building up to full time from there. So I think that's definitely a big factor that I do ask some of my grad prospects to consider. What is your biggest priority? Is it that housing allowance payment or is it success in the program and maybe starting out gradually? Everyone comes from different backgrounds.

Christopher Lewis [00:17:21]:

Are there things that veterans or active duty service members tend to forget when it comes to and it may be just nuts and bolts things for benefits or other aspects that they should be asking coordinators like yourself at the campuses that they're attending so that they are not leaving anything on the table.

Helen Budd [00:17:45]:

I can't bring anything specific to mind other than knowing that it is perfectly fine to use the resources that are available to you. Don't be afraid to ask the questions. Some of the folks I've had come in have retired after 20 years or more of service, may have got their bachelor's degree already while they were in. And I think it's just what I had mentioned before, just making sure that you know that you have the resources and support and that it's okay to ask for help. That's probably the biggest thing for all of my undergraduate and graduate students is the military culture. Very often they don't like to ask for help. And that's something that I think can be that can get in the way. I've seen it get in the way.

Helen Budd [00:18:36]:

Well, I'm embarrassed to ask for help with this. It's such a trivial thing. No, it's not. Nothing is trivial. There's no silly question. We're here to help. Absolutely.

Christopher Lewis [00:18:47]:

So talk to me about the role that you play, the role that other people in similar roles that you play and why it's so important for anyone that is applying to grad school or to school in general that they should be reaching out to a coordinator like yourself. A director? Whatever type of resource that is on the campus for active duty and veterans.

Helen Budd [00:19:15]:

I want to clarify that we have several more people in our community, in our military connected community. We have active duty reservists members of the National Guard, and we have family members who are also a huge component. They're the ones that hold the fort when they're service members serving male, female, it doesn't matter. Spouses, kids, they're part of that military family. And that's something that I always want everyone to remember, that they're all important. They all serve one way or the other, whether it's at home, holding the keeping the home fires burning or out in the field and drilling and doing their work overseas or at home. Everyone plays a part. So I do want to clarify it's not just veterans active duty reserves.

Helen Budd [00:20:15]:

We have our family members and to our department, they are as important as our military member, direct military members. So I do want to make sure that everyone's aware of that. The other thing is that they really need to approach our department as soon as possible. So that we can assist with benefit related questions. That's usually the biggest thing that happens is how do I use my GI bill or my husband or wife transferred their benefit to me? How do I go about receiving those benefits? So we are myself and Michelle Smith in my department. We're the two who handle those questions and can help the students get on the right track, whether they're the veteran or service member or the dependent. There are different forms for each depending on the circumstances. So there are a lot of things that we need to work with them to make sure that they either apply for the correct benefit or use the benefit.

Helen Budd [00:21:29]:

So we have processes in place where they have to request to use the benefit before each semester. Otherwise, we do not certify them to VA until we have their request, and that is for their protection. We don't just blindly see that they're registered and then just certify them because they might not want to use the benefit for a specific semester. But really, until they come and talk to us, every case is different. Some cases are very similar. It just depends on the person. But we're here to help, and we're the only ones who actually submit that information to VA. So it is critical that they reach out to us so we can get that information to them and provide a smooth transition, as smooth as we possibly can make it for them.

Christopher Lewis [00:22:20]:

So, Helen, as you look at the work that you did in your own experience and the educational experience that you had personally, you look at the experience that you're seeing other veterans or military connected individuals going through in their graduate experience. What are some tips that you might offer others? Anyone that is looking at graduate school that would help them to find success sooner?

Helen Budd [00:22:45]:

Do the research. Make sure that the university or college that you want to attend offers the majors that you're looking for that takes some homework on your part. There are easy ways to do that. The VA has a comparison tool on their website that is phenomenal. It is really easy to use. You can compare different schools on there and see what is offered and what is available, who the certifying official is, and what the different housing rates are for different locations, because they do differ based on the zip code of where the school is located. What's the difference if I go all online or partly on campus? Just make sure you do the homework and you find the right major and program for you. Also make sure that that program and major is approved for VA education benefits.

Helen Budd [00:23:47]:

As we go from year to year, we offer new programs, and I'm going to use one in particular, the Doctor of Business Administration. We had to request approval from VA in our new catalog before we could submit enrollment certifications for that program. So it's really important before you enroll and register that you know that your program is approved for the use of benefits. That's the biggest thing that I would recommend, and we can help with that. And my Certifying official is phenomenal. She does the catalog every year so it gets that prepared for approval and we stay on top of that because the VA won't pay for what's not approved. Also understand that you can't just take free electives and expect the VA to pay for them. Know that whatever you take has to apply to you towards your degree.

Helen Budd [00:24:46]:

However interesting a course might sound, if it's not required, VA is not going to pay for it. Another factor is if you have a 20% or higher service connected disability, check into the Veterans Readiness and Employment benefit. If you've not used any of previous benefits, you can potentially use that benefit and it won't cut into, for instance, post 911 GI bill entitlement. So you could end up with at least 48 months of benefits if you play it right. So that's where we also like to meet our students ahead of time. So we can ask some difficult questions sometimes, but it's for the benefit of the student or prospective student so that we can guide you to the right benefit and program for you.

Christopher Lewis [00:25:41]:

Well, Helen, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for being here today, for sharing your own journey with us, and I wish you all the best.

Helen Budd [00:25:49]:

Thank you very much. Go blue.

Christopher Lewis [00:25:51]:

The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education, whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit Umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

In this episode of the Victors in Grad School, podcast Dr. Christopher Lewis interviews Dr. Grace Carey about her educational journey and career. Dr. Carey began her academic path at the University of Michigan Flint, earning a bachelor's degree in anthropology and sociology with a minor in international and global studies. She later pursued a Ph.D. in anthropology at Princeton University and currently works for the Michigan Municipal League Foundation.

Dr. Carey's decision to attend graduate school was influenced by the mentors she had at the University of Michigan Flint who provided her with guidance and support. She discovered the possibility of receiving financial assistance for graduate education, including stipends, housing, and health insurance, making the idea of graduate school more feasible.

The conversation then touches on Dr. Carey's transition from a regional institution to an Ivy League institution. She mentions the challenges of overcoming preconceived biases and narratives that regional institution degrees are less valuable. However, Dr. Carey found mentors at both institutions who supported her journey.

The discussion emphasizes how Dr. Carey's undergraduate and graduate degrees have prepared her for her current career. Her background in anthropology allows her to interpret complex legislative issues, mediate between local communities and governments, and create community-driven programs.

Dr. Carey provides valuable advice for her younger self and prospective graduate students. She highlights the importance of openness, vulnerability, and open-mindedness when entering a new academic environment, as well as the benefits of conducting informational interviews with professionals to explore potential career paths.

The episode concludes with a message about the University of Michigan Flint's graduate programs and encourages listeners to explore their graduate education options.

Overall, the episode covers Dr. Carey's educational journey, her transition from a regional institution to an Ivy League university, the applicability of her degrees to her current career, and her advice for those considering graduate school.

This podcast is brought to you by The Office of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan-Flint. If you're still wondering about other things to consider when it comes to graduate school, you can also contact the Office of Graduate Programs at UM-Flint. We're here to answer questions Monday – Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. EST. You can also find out more about the 50+ programs that the university has to offer here.

TRANSCRIPT

Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:

Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, you and I are on a journey together. We are talking about the graduate school journey that you are on, Whether you're already in graduate school, whether you're just starting to think about graduate school, whether you've put in that application, you're waiting to hear, Every person is on a little bit different path. Every person is on is at a little bit different place in that journey. But It's important to think about the end goal, which is graduating from that program, but also at the same time, thinking about what you need to do now To prepare yourself for the journey and prepare yourself for finding success in that journey.

Christopher Lewis [00:01:05]:

Every week, I love being able to bring you different people, different guests, people that have gone before you, That have gone through graduate school, have been successful, and can share that journey that they went on with you as well And provide you along the way with some hints, some tips, some things that they learned that may help you In the journey that you're on as well. This week, we've got another great guest with us. Doctor Grace Carey is with us. And, doctor Carey started her educational journey at the University of Michigan Flint where she got her bachelor's degree. She got a A bachelor's degree in anthropology and sociology with a minor in international and global studies. And from there, She went on and she got her doctorate degree. She got a a doctorate degree of philosophy, a PhD in anthropology From Princeton University, and she currently is working for the Michigan Municipal League Foundation. And we're gonna talk about that in kind of the the journey that she she was on because she also worked at Princeton University for a while as well.

Christopher Lewis [00:02:20]:

And with that degree that she had received, so we'll talk about that as well. So I'm really excited to have her here, For her to share her experience with you and to learn more about the journey that she had. Doctor Carey, thanks so much for being here.

Grace Carey [00:02:36]:

Yeah. Thank you for having me.

Christopher Lewis [00:02:38]:

It is my pleasure having you here today. Really excited to be able to talk to you and to learn more about your own journey. I guess, 1st and foremost, I'd love to go back in time because you did your undergraduate work here at the University of Michigan Flint. And at some point during that educational journey, you made a choice. You made a choice that you wanted to continue your education After you got that bachelor's degree, and it was about a year after that you started your degree. So talk to me about what were the reasons that made you decide that you wanted to go further and go and get that PhD.

Grace Carey [00:03:15]:

In a way, I'm kind of a first Generation graduate student in my family. My dad was actually the 1st generation person, but he didn't start college till I was older. And then he also went on and did a master's of Fine arts, and we were almost doing our graduate programs concurrently, so we were both, like, figuring this out at the same time. So that was a really interesting journey for me. And Because of him doing that while I was midway through my undergraduate, I started thinking about, like, wow, graduate School. Like, what even is that? I didn't really know. And I have to say I got phenomenally lucky at U of M Flint with the anthropology department we had, Which is still a phenomenal department. I know a lot of the current faculty, but 6, 7 years ago, the folks who were there were just incredible mentors.

Grace Carey [00:04:00]:

And, I mean, they truly dedicated so much of their day and so much of their time to the group of us who are going through the program at that time way beyond The classroom setting where we would have lunch together regularly and phone calls and getting sent home with books from their personal bookshelves over the the breaks of, Oh, I heard you were interested in this. Here's, like, my 6 favorite books on that. And it was really from them that I started to realize graduate school was an option because I I grew up very working class. Even going for my undergraduate degree, I I did work study the entire time. I worked outside of that as well. So I actually worked about 15 different positions at U of M Flint, during my tenure there, and one of them was actually as a career counselor and academic adviser as one of their peer advisers and kind of the Inaugural wave of that. So I got thinking about grad school through that a little bit as well as I was advising other students about what do you do next? Like, do you start looking for a job, or Do you consider, you know, going on for more schooling? And if so, like, what is your reason for going on? Sometimes we're looking at a professional degree. Right? Like, I I need a JD so that I can practice law.

Grace Carey [00:05:08]:

It's very practical. But for something like anthropology, that's not the easiest trajectory. Right? Like, Constantly being asked, what do you even do with an anthropology degree? What would you do with more of an anthropology degree? It was like an insurmountable question. Right? So having these Very strong mentorship relationships with folks in the anthro department was the reason I moved forward with what I did. Being able to Talk to them about things in my field that really sparked my interest beyond the classroom and realizing the way I was thinking about things Was interesting. It was valuable and that there was other people who would see some merit in that to go on and do research and actually go and Practice being an anthropologist, which you don't get a lot of opportunities to do outside of the academic sphere. But the tipping point for me was when I got sat down because I'd started looking at graduate school, and I was also thinking again, how how am I going to afford this? Seeing what my dad was going through As a a master's degree, you don't often get offered something like a stipend or housing or health insurance. He was working full time, raising a family, Doing classes at night, paying a lot for a master's degree, and I was like, how could I afford this? How can I manage this? And to have someone sit down and tell me, oh, no.

Grace Carey [00:06:30]:

If they're not gonna pay you to go do a PhD, it's not worth your time. I had no idea. I had no idea that you could get Paid to be a graduate student. I didn't know that you could get housing and health insurance included in that. That really, really changed the way I was thinking about it and whether it was Oh, good use of my time for starting a career, because it's also it's a big commitment. Right? Like if you do a PhD, you're looking at anywhere from 5 to 8 years of Time that you're looking at your peers who are going out and they're starting a job with their bachelor's degree. And by the time that you finish your PhD, Steve, they're already going to have 6 to 8 years of work experience under their belt. And even if you're looking at an academic position, you're Trying to catch up at that point.

Grace Carey [00:07:13]:

Right? Like, you've just spent 6 to 8 more years. So really sitting down and thinking about, wow, this could be something very very worthwhile and thinking about grad School as a step in my career and not still being a student, I think, was a big shift for me as well. And that was, again, having those mentors to Walk me through that process that, like, it's not the same when you're in grad school. Right? Like, you're not just coming to classes and learning. You are actually the ones starting to produce the ideas. You're writing papers. You're working on a project. You're going out.

Grace Carey [00:07:46]:

You're doing research. That was, I think, Really critical for me. It felt like I was moving forward with my trajectory, with my career, with actually, like, doing anthropology. And so, yeah, that was What led me on this path and what led me towards Princeton as well, I think, with many different degrees that you look at for graduate school, There's a lot of variants. Some of them are very independent in the work that you do. Some of them are very much like you go and you join a project that's already happening, especially in some of the harder sciences. Right? So that process of also finding the right fit for grad school was really interesting and definitely strongly aided by the mentors that I had to be able to find who is this, like, 1 person that has enough of a similar research background that they could actually assist me through my Graduate journey, that's what led me specifically to Princeton.

Christopher Lewis [00:08:37]:

That was actually my next question because, you know, you went from coming from The University of Michigan, Flint, a very regionally based institution that has a lot of students from the Genesee County and surrounding areas To a nationally known Ivy League institution, very different, very different Scope very different way of thinking, very different way of teaching. So talk to me about that and how you came to the realization that that was a school, 1, that you wanted to apply to, but 2, that that was the school that you would ultimately end up attending.

Grace Carey [00:09:17]:

Yeah. That was a very emotional process, I'm gonna say, because, especially, I was starting at U of M Flint 2011. There was a lot Happening politically. When I moved and started graduate school, the water crisis was just starting, and that was also really difficult to deal with. But Through all of that came a process of having to come to terms with the power of some of the narratives that we have in Flint about ourselves and our community, and how detrimental those can be to us actually seeking out opportunities. So I don't know if things have changed a little bit recently. I'm I'm back in the the area now, but definitely at that time, that idea that, like, Flint's been abandoned, we've been left behind, and there was, To be honest, some tension between the Flint campus and our, you know, colleagues at Ann Arbor and how we didn't feel entirely included in the The University of Michigan kind of family, which I know that, like, 1 university movement's really taken hold since then. But There was a lot of talk by my peers and other folks of like, oh, well, you have a degree, and your degree says Flint on it.

Grace Carey [00:10:25]:

Like, It's not gonna be worth as much, or it's not gonna matter as much, and that couldn't be more wrong. It couldn't be more wrong at all because before the water crisis happened, Nobody outside of here even knew where Flint was. And if they did, they'd be like, oh, it's that Michael Moore movie. Right? Like but we had this narrative constantly going that Because it says Flint on our degree that we can't get into a place like Princeton, or we can't get into a place Like other Ivy League schools or what have you. And so, again, having the mentors that I did who sat me down and they were like, Don't listen to any of that. What you do is good work, and what we do here as an institution, as a university, is good work. That was really a big kind of, I think, emotional step that I had to take to realize, like, I can apply to Princeton, and I can get in there because there were Some other folks, even some other faculty who would tell you the opposite at that time, and that was something I had struggled with. I had 1 professor in particular who would tell their Students like, oh, just apply for a good state school.

Grace Carey [00:11:27]:

That's that's all that we can really get into. And I know for a fact that that's not happening anymore. That was a situation at the time, but that was really challenging. And I'm very glad that I had the people at the inter department that I had who made me realize, like, Princeton isn't this Unachievable pipe dream. Right? Like, you can go there and, yeah, like, having them help me write the applications. We spent months Going back and forth, writing my application, realizing that you don't have to do that whole process in a vacuum, that I am kind of the sum of All of my mentors and the things I learned from them and the things that I grew and developed from them, like having them helped me write the statements and that kind of idea of what my project was going to be like. That didn't have to happen alone because that learning didn't happen alone. And, Yeah.

Grace Carey [00:12:16]:

That's what led me to Princeton and getting in there, and I'm I'm so glad that I took that leap. And I would really like to see a lot of other students feel like what they're doing at U of M Flint is is valuable because it truly is. And having been in a couple of different university settings now, I can tell you That, like, the educational experience that I got at U of M Flint was so unique in that my professors actually took the time to know me, to know my interests, and that does not happen at a lot of places.

Christopher Lewis [00:12:47]:

Now you did find success. You you got through the the graduate degree. You finished the doctorate degree. As I said, you know, doctor Carey, you made it. And with that, and with the transition that you made from the University of Michigan Flint to moving to Princeton, There are definite things that I'm sure that you had to do to be able to, 1, set yourself up for success as you transition into the program, but Things that you had to do to maintain that success throughout the many years that you were at Princeton And you are working on your doctorate degree. Talk to me about that and what you had to do to not only set yourself up for success, but also to maintain that success throughout the entire time.

Grace Carey [00:13:32]:

Yeah. No. That's also a really good question, and I know that this is super cliche, but it really boils down to, like, Building strong networks. I got into Princeton because I had strong networks in Flint, and that was those mentorship relationships I had. And then once I was there, I didn't I didn't just drop those relationships. I made sure that I nurtured them and kept them strong, and I tried to build new types of relationships in my graduate program as well. So, while I was there, I spent a lot of time really networking with my professional association, which I had done a little bit throughout my undergraduate degree. I'd been going to American anthropology conferences every year, but it was kind of a different beast once you're into grad school.

Grace Carey [00:14:11]:

Right? Like, I'm I'm going as a presenter now and not just as a student attendee, and I'm going there to meet what I thought at the time were potential colleagues because I when I first started, I was very continuing in the academic trajectory. I was like, I'm gonna teach when I'm done. This is A 100% what I wanna do, but about halfway through because I'd started, you know, I took some internships with a journal, really started to try to build Experience and networks outside of the classroom setting. I realized during my fieldwork where I spent over the course of, like, 4 years, I ended up Spending around 24 months doing intensive on-site field work in a town in Florida on kind of political legal issues and the building of a privately owned and privately governed I started realizing what I actually liked doing on a daily basis was this kind of mediation or facilitation between the community I was working with And their local government are helping them understand these very strange pieces of legislation that had made a privately owned town possible and, Yeah. Helping them understand why they couldn't elect their city council members and all these kinds of comp complicated things. Right? And it was like halfway through that I realized Maybe I don't wanna teach. Maybe I wanna be in a practical space when I leave. And so that was like a moment where to kind of do a 180 and I had to start Seeking out other folks who had left academia for lack of a better term, which is very, very unusual.

Grace Carey [00:15:35]:

So that was very complicated and difficult. Like, pretty much everyone's like, oh, you have an anthropology degree. Like, you're gonna teach, and that's what Princeton's department sets you up for. And even my other faculty there, like, they didn't know how to prepare us for success outside of the academic space. So those resources were not available to me in program. They were all like, this is fantastic, and we support you on this. We don't know how to help you. We all have 25 page CVs.

Grace Carey [00:16:01]:

We don't know how to make a 1 page resume anymore. You know, like these kinds of things. Right? So I actually started doing a bunch of informational interviews, and I wish I would have started a lot sooner. So if anyone's listening to this, like, start I'll start in your undergraduate degree. Just, like, call up folks who work in a field that you think you might be interested in. Ask to do a 20 minute phone call and just ask them about, like, what do you do on a daily basis? What does, like, a daily routine look like for you? What What does your job entail? Do you like it? How did you get there? Because that helped me realize, like, what's out there? What can I do with my degree? And at the same time, I, Again, built up that network so that by the time I was looking for the job I'm in now, I had a whole bunch of people who understood really well What I did, which is, again, hard if you have an anthropology degree. Nobody knows what it is. So to have that group of people who understand Not just the term anthropology, but what I do specifically with it, and to help them find the right place for me.

Grace Carey [00:17:01]:

Like, that made the job search So much easier, which can be a little challenging if you have a PhD and you're going into the job market. I think for a lot of places outside of academia seeing that PhD is maybe a little daunting, and people don't understand it. So talk to people. Build some networks.

Christopher Lewis [00:17:19]:

I was going to ask you because you do have a doctorate degree, and you're working outside of academia because in a lot of times, a PhD He does prepare you for that teaching experience. So talk to me about the degree that you got at the undergraduate level, the degree that you got at Princeton, And how you find that graduate degree truly prepared you for the work that you're doing on a daily basis.

Grace Carey [00:17:45]:

Yeah. I use my degree in absolutely everything that I do, and part of that boils down to anthropology is the study of people and how we build systems and culture and shared knowledge so that is applicable to everything. But beyond that, in my undergraduate, I realized really quickly that I loved how anthropology looked at things, but I liked that sociology looked at the US and looked at especially, like, political legal stuff. So I had also, I think, maybe had enough classes for a minor in political science. My my whole degree was a mess again. I worked in the advising center. So I found all of the classes that, like, doubled and triple counted, and I had way too many things going on. But I realized then that that That was kind of a combination that I liked, which is why I ended up with both of the degrees for anthropology and sociology, and that was, again, a The challenge for grad school, anthropology is a very outward looking field, and that's something that internally the field is trying to problematize and fix that, like, we can't keep studying the quote, unquote other and the exotic, and we need to turn our own gaze on ourselves.

Grace Carey [00:18:49]:

But that being said, there's still very few anthropologists who actually study culture in the United States. So that was, like, A challenge, I guess. Finding the grad school fit, but I'm digressing. So in my graduate program, I, again, was like kind of bridging together, like, political science and sociology and anthropology into this really unusual space that had started from Ann Arbor area, there was a lot of funding from Catholic, like, intentional communities there to go and start this privately owned town in Florida, and it's Yeah. But taken over by real estate developers. So people that live there lost control of over their community entirely, and it's kind of this weird mixture of space where anthropology is, like, really helpful for helping people interpret things like legislature legislation and how that actually affects you in your daily life. Right? Like, it has a lot of impacts on us, whether it's how tall our grass can be or who can vote, who can't, these kinds of things. So that That led me into the space I'm at now or at the Michigan Municipal League, which is a very strange organization.

Grace Carey [00:19:54]:

It is a membership association of 530 municipal governments across the state of Michigan, and we are kind of in that same weird mediation space as an organization that I was in as an individual in my fieldwork. So we kind of mediate between Local communities and local governments and the state, the federal government. We provide education. We do advocacy. We, do technical assistance, all these kinds of things. And so in my particular role as a program officer, I design programs that are community driven. So one of the programs I run is called My Water Navigator. When I first started it, the first thing I did was basically field work.

Grace Carey [00:20:36]:

I went out and I talked to village and city Managers from across the state, and I asked them, like, what are the barriers to how you're accessing funding to fix your water pipes in your community? I didn't know the first thing about water infrastructure. What I knew was how to figure out what the barriers were. So I went out and basically did field work, designed a program that was actually based off of the needs that the communities told me they had. And from there, I've been able to bring on a team of folks who do know the engineering, and my role Side of that is to, you know, distill kind of actionable insights from all of the data that we gather. So taking everything from qualitative Interviews from communities or feedback from workshops that I'm hosting or trainings or things like this and being able to steal that down into things like policy recommendations so that we can actually fix the application for funding at the state level that's Causing the problems, all of that is anthropology and anthropological thinking. Right? Like, being able to take a systems view or systems approach and to drill it down into simpler ideas. That's that's what we do, and so I'm still doing that on a daily basis. And right now, I'm actually working to establish New learning and evaluation procedures across my whole organization, which, again, is a lot of what anthropology does.

Grace Carey [00:21:55]:

We have a whole field of organizational anthropology that looks at, like, how organizations function and how do we communicate better with each other and make spaces more equitable, all these Kinds of things.

Christopher Lewis [00:22:06]:

I really appreciate that because it makes a lot more sense, and it really allows me to connect the dots of how That PhD and your undergraduate work led you toward working with people and working, you know, within this governmental agency, See, I'm an organization to be able to assist the masses in a different way. So, you know, I really appreciate you sharing that. Now, I guess as you look back and you think of that younger self, that younger person that you were when you were going through that undergraduate degree And you look back now at the experience that you had as you went through that graduate education. What would you say to that younger self that would have prepared her better For that graduate school journey. And 2, what are any other tips that you might wanna offer others that are considering graduate education that'll help and define success.

Grace Carey [00:22:57]:

That's always the hardest question, isn't it? Like, what what was the number one thing I would like younger me to know? I think in many ways, my first Couple of years of grad school, I could've made more of the experience. I think part of it was me being, again, kind of held back from these narratives that we had in Flint about, like, who we were as Flintoids and how we thought the world looked at us, which, Again, was just not true. It's just how we kind of got our minds. And definitely my 1st 2 years at Princeton, I had a lot of my own biases about, like, oh, this is a really affluent place, and I don't know how to navigate the space and just, like, assuming that I I didn't belong there because I was very working class or Just where I came from, it took me a couple of years to realize that nobody cared. Nobody cared, like, how I grew up or where not that they didn't care, but, like, it didn't stop people from having engaging relationships with me or from being interested in my work. It was me holding myself back because I was feeling out of place, and it took me, I think, far too long to get outside of that. So I would definitely recommend trying as hard as you can to Be as open as possible when you go into a grad school space because at the end of the day, like, openness to us having a new worldview, having a new learning, like, incredible new things. Like, it all boils down to allowing yourself to be vulnerable and open in that space, Especially if you're moving to a new state and you're doing you know, you have to find all new friends and everything is kind of starting over.

Grace Carey [00:24:31]:

That can feel really daunting. So So I think that's that would be my number for one thing. Yeah. Do these informational interviews. I wish I would have known about those, like, a 100 years ago. That was something, like, I was finishing up my final year of grad school. I was writing my dissertation, and I finally found, like, a couple of colleagues who now, like, worked for or worked for, like, these really strange spaces, people that worked in user experience and just odd places for anthropologists to be. And one of them, Peter Kurie, he was like, you know what? You need to do these informational interviews.

Grace Carey [00:25:02]:

I was like, what in the world is that? And he's like, oh, well, you know field work. Right? And I'm like, yeah. He goes, it's It's fieldwork. You go and you you do an informational interview. Like, oh, okay. I wish I would have been doing that through my whole bachelor's degree. Through my Entire career as a graduate student, I had to boil basically what should have been years of learning about myself And what I wanted from a career into, like, 3 months as I was like, my fellowship is ending. I need to find a job.

Grace Carey [00:25:28]:

Like, what am I gonna do next? So, yeah, I think that would be the number one thing. And, again, like, the advice I was given was, like, it's casual, but, like, you don't Ask for a job during the informational interview at all. You just ask someone to give you 15 to 20 minutes of their time. They wanna talk about themselves. They wanna talk about what they do, and you just start to learn, like, what's out there. And at the end of it, always ask them, like, is there anyone else that I should be talking to? And that's gonna lead you on some journeys. It took me to where I am now. I did not even know what the Michigan Municipal League was until I was doing these informational interviews.

Grace Carey [00:26:01]:

And now I can look back, and I can trace The exact, like, 7 people who connected me to each other and got me to the this place where I am now.

Christopher Lewis [00:26:09]:

Great advice. And I will say that throughout my entire career, there have been many opportunities where when you ask that question, should I talk to next? It can lead you in a whole different direction. So I appreciate you sharing that, for saying that because I think it is so important, Whether it's in a professional journey, whether it's in a personal journey, no matter what it is, as you meet new people in your life, You can always ask that question of thank you for taking the time to talk to me. Is there anyone else that I can talk to that would help me better understand this in a different way. And so many people are more than willing To offer up other names, other suggestions to help you as you move forward. So so I really appreciate that and appreciate you sharing your own journey today. It has been eye opening for me and definitely eye opening, I'm sure, for everyone else, And I truly wish you all the best. Thank you.

Christopher Lewis [00:27:12]:

The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms To find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon As we embark together on your graduate school journey, if you have any questions or want to reach out, Email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

Welcome back to the Victors in Grad School podcast! In today's episode, titled "Advice from Admission Professionals on Succeeding in Graduate School," we bring you a unique and insightful perspective on graduate school success. Our host, Christopher Lewis, attended the NAGAP conference in New York City and had the opportunity to speak with admission professionals from various institutions across the United States. These experts shared their valuable advice and recommendations for students navigating the graduate school journey. Join us as we dive into their thoughts on finding balance, choosing the right program, utilizing resources, and building a support system. Whether you're a current graduate student or considering pursuing higher education, this episode is packed with practical tips to guide you on your path to success. Stay tuned and get ready to absorb the wisdom of these seasoned professionals. Let's jump in!

Guests

1. Christopher Lewis, University of Michigan-Flint
2. Stanley Kania, Drexel University College of Medicine
3. Lucy Holecek, Russell Sage College
4. Taylor White, Ohio State University
5. Amanda Selby, AT Still University
6. Jennifer Nyeste, New Jersey City University
7. Adeel Ahmed, University of Colorado - Boulder
8. Sherry Quinn, Wayne State University
9. Seth Gummere, Study Portals
10. Taylor, Western Michigan University
11. Aisling Sive, University of Rochester
12. Jared Pic, Georgetown University
13. Channing Ford, Jacksonville State University
14. Ashlee Hanley, Jacksonville State University
15. Jamie Kainz, International Institute for Restorative Practices
16. Jeremy Mixell, University of Chicago
17. Alaina Coe, Bowling Green State University
18. Aaron Coffey, Wichita State University
19. Aaron Berger, Kent State University
20. Raymond Herrera, Washington Stat University
21. Ken Lundy, Stetson University

 

Transcript

Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:

Welcome to the Victors in Grad school podcast where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]:

Welcome back to Victor's in grad school. I'm your host Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan-Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. This week's a different type of episode. I attended the NAGAP conference in New York City this spring. NAGAP is the National Association of Graduate Admission Professionals. And at that conference, I talked to quite a few different admission professionals about Some of the things that they recommended, some of the things that they encouraged students to think about when thinking about success in general. And these individuals come from many different institutions from all over the United States, and I wanted to be able to bring you their voice to share some of their thoughts and perspectives from working with many different graduate students over the years because I know that their voices and their thoughts and ideas can help you again to find success in the journey that you're on. I'm really excited to be able to introduce all of them to you and have you listen and learn from them and be able to take things that you can implement right away. Enjoy.

Stanley Kania [00:01:33]:

So the name is Stanley Kania, Drexel University College of Medicine, Assistant Dean of Admissions, and my advice to graduate students on How to be successful is definitely finding what I call the perfect balance. And that's the balance between your personal obligations professional obligations, your academic obligations, graduate school, no matter what level, if it's a bachelor's or a doctorate, it's certainly a marathon. It's not a So what students need to do is they need to ensure that they have time to fill their bucket with all the responsibilities and attention that they need to give educational experience and help them want to be that advocate for their friends, their family, their spouse, their children, what have you, to pursue a graduate education and to understand the value in that type of investment.

Lucy Holecek [00:02:35]:

My name is Lucy. I'm the associate director in the graduate enrollment management office at Russell Sage College in both Albany and Troy, New York. And I would say the top piece of advice I give to any student I work with is to make sure that they find the best fit for themselves both financially and time wise as at my institution have many online and in person programs. So I work with a lot of adult learners who have children and full time jobs. So definitely finding some thing that fits their schedule, I'd say is the best advice that I would give.

Taylor White [00:03:16]:

This is Taylor White Graduate Program Manager at the School of Environment And Natural Resources at the Ohio State University. I'd have to say that The most important thing for ensuring success in graduate school is finding a good fit with a faculty member. It may not be important for every type of program there, but especially for your STEM based programs. It's one of the most important things, if not the most important thing. Depending on the admissions process of your program, you may need to talk to a fact team member before you apply, or it may be a connection that's made after you're admitted. So make sure that you check-in with the application website, graduate program staff, and make sure that you understand what expected of you during that process because that fit with the faculty advisor is going to carry you through all the way up through graduation and beyond when you're out on the job market.

Amanda Selby [00:04:06]:

Hello. My name is Amanda Selby. I'm the assistant director of admissions at AT Stills University. My piece of advice for a student to be successful would be to be willing to use the resources that are provided to you and remember the reasons why you're pursuing graduate degrees because it's gonna get really hard and you've gotta keep that passion alive. So remember why you're doing this, use the resources Be flexible. That's my advice.

Jennifer Nyeste [00:04:38]:

My name is Jennifer Nyeste. I'm a director of admissions at New Jersey City University, and one piece of advice I would give to a student looking at graduate schools is to keep it open mind, there is a fit in a place for everyone. It might not be at my institution, but you have a lot champions out there trying to help you find your path. Just keep an open mind and ask all the right questions, and you'll find the resources available to you. Hello.

Adeel Ahmed [00:05:08]:

My name the Adeel Ahmed. I serve as the senior graduate recruiter at the University of Colorado Boulder. One piece of advice I would give to anyone looking into grad school is try to figure out your long term career goals. Before you decide on what program, what school you want to apply for, this will make it a lot easier in the long run if you kind of a sense of what you wanna do with your masters or doctoral degree. This will save you a lot of stress and just time in figuring out kind of where to go after that degree because you really should think about your degree as a stepping stone to something greater beyond grad school, not just as it ended in of itself, but it means to an end. So that's kinda one piece of advice I would give as you're looking to applying to a master's or doctoral or other graduate program.

Sherry Quinn [00:06:14]:

Hi. This is Sherry Quinn. I'm with Wayne State University Graduate School, director of graduate admissions and enrollment management. And so today, I like to give some advice to prospective students on the success in their journey. I would say what you need to do is to stay the course. Be persistent. Stay the course.

Seth Gummere [00:06:32]:

I am Seth Gumry, Senior Vice President, the North America for study portals. My one piece of advice would be to find where you fit, not just academic and program wise, but where do you see yourself as a good fit with the other students who are at the institution? The faculty members just the overall culture. Academic programs are incredibly important, but sometimes we can get too caught up in the details of what we were gonna be learning and who we're gonna be learning from and forget about our own personal connection to the school and to the other students who are in the classroom with you.

Taylor from WMU [00:06:38]:

My name is Taylor, and I'm from Western Michigan University. My advice for incoming students considering graduate school would be to get to know not only the school that you're applying to, but the community that you're gonna be living in. Do they have the resources that you need in your community? Do they have your interest groups. Are you gonna be able to make friends and make valuable connections in that area outside of your program and go out and find things to do that make you feel valued supported and having a good time in the community that you live in.

Aisling Sive [00:07:13]:

My name is Ashley Sive. I work at the University of Rochester. I am the director of graduate admissions for our art sciences and engineering programs. I think one of the biggest pieces of advice that I like to give both prospective students, but also our current students is once you arrive on campus to find your partners and find your support system, I think graduate education can be isolating some times it's different than undergrad that you're not as integrated on campus. So you kinda have to do a little more leg work in seeking out those support systems and seeking out those people, but it's really important that you do because you're gonna find that you want them at some point along the road because it is a hard road, particularly if you're pursuing a PhD, and you wanna make sure that you have those people that you can go to and and seek support from.

Jared Pic [00:08:47]:

My name is Jared Pic. I am the assistant director of admissions and alumni engagement at Georgetown University School of Foreign Service Center for Security Studies. I'm a biggest piece of advice would definitely be writing skills. I mean, what I mean by that is especially if you've been out of school for a while, maybe it takes some time to learn how to develop your writing skills through the writing talk with professors, citations, and such, how to research properly, how to quote things properly, paraphrasing, etcetera, really take the time out side of just the lectures to really meet with faculty and writing services to really develop those skills because you could use them outside of work and also into future academic things such as BHGs and such. So definitely make sure you're taking the time to hone your writing skills overall.

Channing Ford [00:09:38]:

I'm Channing Ford. I'm Dean of Graduate Studies at Jacksonville State University in Jacksonville, Alabama. And my advice for a prospective student would be to identify a great mentor that understands you as a student that understands what you want out of your academic journey and who's gonna be your touchstone during that process. Mentor can be anyone within your program can even be a professional that you're working with in the field. It's just important to make sure that you look to them to kind of help serve as your inspiration for what you want to do once you complete your program.

Ashlee Hanley [00:10:18]:

I'm Ashlee Hanley, the Assistant Director of Graduate Studies at Jack Cymbal State University, and Jack Cymbal Alabama. And my advice would be to find a way to balance your life early on. Sometimes the course load and your assignments can get a little overwhelming at times, and you have to find a way to balance your work life, your home wife, and your school, all at the same time. And when you find that balance, you're able to be successful in whatever you do, and you're able to push yourself further in your education.

Jamie Kainz [00:10:53]:

My name is Jamie Kaines. I'm the dean of student services at the IIRP Graduate School And my one piece of advice to a prospective graduate student is to believe that you can do it. Believing yourself, you're stronger than you realize.

Jeremy Mixell [00:11:13]:

My name is Jeremy Mixell. I'm from Loyola University, Chicago. I think that I would recommend for graduate students just to put yourself out there. I think the faculty may seem distant at first, right, to get a hold of, but I think definitely reaching out to them, working with them as mentors, and really getting to know them, getting to know their interests brought them to the field will help inspire your own passions and really help you, make the connections that you're looking for in order to be successful.

Alaina Coe [00:11:46]:

My name is Alaina Coe. I work with Bowling Green State University as the graduate admissions counselor in the graduate admissions office, and I believe for a student to be successful on their graduate school journey is to make connections, build bridges. It is better to know many people with different backgrounds and ways that they have done things and hear about their stories and to know how to apply that your own life and to really make those connections in those bridges so that you can then for later on possibly use those for your own experience. So that's what I would say is the most successful.

Aaron Coffey [00:13:08]:

This is Aaron Coffey, the assistant Dean of the school at Wichita State University, when thinking about graduate school and how to be successful, graduate students really need to remember why why they're making the decision to pursue what they're pursuing and what their goal is, they're going to experience so many challenge is during their education. They're going to question themselves. They're going to face imposter syndrome. They're gonna question the outcomes the application of what they're doing to a future career. But at the end of the day, they started this journey for a reason, and they need to remember why they're doing what they're doing and how it's going to impact them going forward through the the good things and the bad things that they experience if they are going time, part time, and have to take a break continuing with no breaks or coming back after after starting 2 years ago and finishing, the goal will be the same. The impact them would be the same. And they're gonna have other people telling they can do it. They just need to remember that they can do it, remind themselves that they can do it and that they're doing it for a reason and that's to achieve something they set out to do with the start.

Aaron Berger [00:14:21]:

Hello. I'm Aaron Berger with, Kent State University. I'm an associate director of graduate recruitment. My piece of advice for somebody looking at getting into graduate school, best piece of advice to be successful in that environment is to realize that you're not on an island that other people around you, I think sometimes it can feel kind of isolating that you have other people who are in the classes with you and inform a community, even if a formal one doesn't exist, seek that out, and you're gonna find strength in numbers.

Raymond Herrera [00:14:58]:

Hi. My name is Doctor Raymond Herrera. I'm an associate vice provost for the graduate school at Washington State University. My one piece of advice for our prospective graduate students is to get involved with research as an undergraduate. It's super important to get your hands in the lab or in the library, what have you, and get involved with research outside your regular coursework. Factory are often looking for folks who have at least some experience, maybe a little bit of knowledge about how to conduct research. So get involved in research as an undergrad if you can.

Ken Lundy [00:15:28]:

My name is Ken Lundy, assistant director of graduate admissions for the College of Arts and sciences at Stetson University, and a interesting question was posed to me in what advice would I give to a graduate student, basically, that would help them on their journey. And I would say to make sure that you find your community and when I say community, find your safe space so that when there are those time stress those times of need that you have folks or individuals or a per or a group of people that you can go to confide in. They can coach you up. You can coach them. And at the end of the day, they may you a better person because what is said is that iron sharpens iron. So I would suggest that you find your community and work within those finds to be the best graduate student that you can be.

Christopher Lewis:

The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education, whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the university of Michigan Flynn has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.eduforward/ graduate programs to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in Grand school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, Email me at flintgrandoffice@umflint.edu.

Welcome to another exciting episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast! In this episode, our host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, sits down with a special guest, Lora Phelps, an early college dual enrollment coordinator. Lora shares her journey from undergraduate to graduate school, discussing the pivotal moments and decisions that led her to pursue further education. As someone who worked full-time while pursuing her graduate degree, Lora provides valuable insights on how to set oneself up for success and maintain that success throughout the demanding graduate school journey. Tune in to this episode to gain valuable tips and inspiration for your own path in academia. 

 

This podcast is brought to you by The Office of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan-Flint. If you're still wondering about other things to consider when it comes to graduate school, you can also contact the Office of Graduate Programs at UM-Flint. We're here to answer questions Monday – Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. EST. You can also find out more about the 50+ programs that the university has to offer here.

 

Transcript

Christopher Lewis:

Welcome to the Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in grad school. I'm your host, dr. Christopher Lewis, director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, each week I love sitting down with you, talking with you about the journey that you're on. I say it every week, but this is a journey. It is a journey that you will be on. You may already be an applicant to grad school, you may be in grad school, you might just be thinking about graduate school. But for anyone that is thinking about graduate school, the most important piece is having a plan. Having a plan to find out how you can be successful in this journey. And that's what this podcast is all about. It is here to help you to find success. And how do you do it? Well, you do it from talking to others, from listening to others, from learning from others. And that's why I love every week to bring you a new guest, someone that has gone before you, that has done this graduate school thing and has had their own experiences, both positive and negative. And you can learn from what they learned and make some similar mistakes, hopefully miss some of those mistakes as well and be also able to then set up that plan like I was mentioning, that will help you to be successful today. We got another great guest, laura Phelps is with us today. And Laura is a early college dual enrollment coordinator with the Shiawassee RESD. And she has had a long experience working in education and ended up doing her undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, getting her Bachelor of Arts degree in Organizational Communication. And then she went on from there and ended up getting a Master's degree in Public Administration in nonprofit agencies. And so I'm really excited to be able to have her here, to have her share her own experiences with you so that you can learn from them. Laura, thanks so much for being here today.

Lora Phelps:

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Christopher Lewis:

It is my pleasure having you here today. Love being able to talk to people about their own experiences. And I guess first and foremost what I want to do is I want to turn the clock back. I said, you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, you got that bachelor's degree, you went off, you worked for a few years and then ended up coming back to the University of Michigan Flint and working. But you also decided to make that next step and work on a graduate degree. So talk to me about what was going through your head, because at some point, either during undergrad or during that period where you were working, you made that choice that choice that you wanted to continue your education. What made you decide to take that leap?

Lora Phelps:

Yeah, so during, I would say, my senior year of my undergraduate experience, I came to the realization that I was probably going to continue on to graduate school. I was getting a bachelor's degree in communications and I didn't exactly know what pathway I was going to take, but I was actually able to do an internship during my senior year with University of Michigan Flint and I worked in the student life office. And that's when I kind of fell in love with higher education. And I loved my experience in higher education at U of M Flint. And so I wanted to kind of figure out how I could turn that into a career. So that senior year, I kind of researched different higher education programs all over the place. I looked at the Hale program at Michigan State. I looked at higher ed at Eastern Michigan University. I even looked out of State. I had looked at Ball State. And I at that time landed on attending Arkansas State University, which is where I first thought I was going to go. They had a student services program. During spring break of my senior year, I actually went down there and interviewed. I had a graduate assistantship set up. I had all this that's where I was going. I had family in Arkansas, so there were some connections there already. And shortly after graduating, I had continued to apply for various jobs. I was offered a position in admissions. And so I actually worked at University of Detroit Mercy for a couple of years. And so I kind of shifted my mindset and was like, okay, let me get some experience before I jump into that graduate school experience and commit to higher education. So I worked at University of Detroit Mercy for a couple of years in admissions, was able to gain some experience there, was given the opportunity to travel all over the state of Michigan recruiting students to attend University of Detroit Mercy. And I always say I loved schools so much, I just continued to work at schools because I enjoyed my experience. And it was while I was there that I kind of decided, okay, I know I want to go to grad school, but I don't know that I want to go into higher education. I want to perhaps broaden my experience and broaden what career pathway I could go down. And I looked at the community development program at University of Detroit Mercy as just as I was going to start beginning courses there. I had been at Detroit Mercy for a couple years. I was given the opportunity to come back to U of M flint and work in admissions there. So I moved my way back to the Flint area and came full circle and started working right where I fell in love with my higher education experience. So I was very excited to move back there and start working and had wonderful opportunities while working at the university. And while working, I discovered we had tuition reimbursement as a benefit while working at the university. And I thought, okay, what programs make sense for me to go into? I could have went elsewhere at another college or university to get my Master's, but I said, let's see what Yubon Plant has to offer here. And that's also when I decided perhaps higher education wasn't the route I wanted to go, but something a little bit more broad, but was still applicable to what my career goals were. And that's kind of how I landed on public administration. So I was able to kind of bring my communications undergraduate experience working in admissions and higher education, and also my desire to work for another organization or work in education in another field and landed on the Master's of Public Administration. So I had been working at U of M Flint for a couple of years when I started that program and did a concentration on nonprofit agencies or nonprofit administration, which really opened my eyes to all of the opportunities that that could lead to. That wasn't just in nonprofit. I was able to take classes in budgeting and accounting and strategic planning and so many things that could be relevant to so many careers. But that's kind of my pathway to ending up in a Master's of Public Administration at the University of Michigan Flint. So I went a couple different avenues before I kind of landed back home.

Christopher Lewis:

As you were going through that graduate degree, you ended up you finished the degree you were successful and ended up finding success in that journey that you went on. As you think about the journey that you went on, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success and what did you have to do to maintain your success throughout your graduate school journey?

Lora Phelps:

Yeah, so it was definitely a different experience than undergraduate because I was working full time. And so it's kind of a whole new ballgame when you're working 40 plus hours a week and you decide to tack on a couple of graduate classes, why not work all day and take classes all evening? What I found was so motivating is that the topics in classes were so relevant to your career. You were taking classes that in a subject area that I wanted to learn more about. So it kind of made those longer days easier to move forward with and also excited about what I was learning because they were new topics that I wasn't necessarily exposed to in my undergraduate experience. And again, they were just so relevant. I was also traveling for admissions at the time, and so there was a lot of balancing, and I kind of had to relearn what study habits looked like as a graduate student because of all the various things you're balancing in life at the time. My pathway while I was in grad school, there was a lot of kind of monumental things that happened in life. I got engaged, I got married, I bought a house, I got pregnant with my first daughter. All of these things happened while I was in graduate school. And it was like, how can I navigate through this and get done and relearning? Those study habits was definitely one of them. Because there is a lot more reading that does take place and there's a lot more focus. On writing, and you're taking a deeper dive into subject areas that you're likely more passionate about because you have sought out that master's degree for a reason and being able to look at the end goal and figure out, step by step how to get there. So for me, it was one or two classes at a time. That's what I could do while I was in graduate school. And working full time and taking classes for me year round is what made the most sense, because the summertime I had more time available, I wasn't traveling for work, and I could be on campus and I could stay after work and take those classes. And I had some really awesome professors in graduate school who wanted to help their students succeed, who wanted you to come talk to them about the subject areas, but not just that. What are your career goals? What can I help you connect within the community? And there's really awesome people that are going to grad school too, that they may have 25 years of experience in a career field, and they decided to come back and get their master's degree for whatever reason that might be. There's really great connections and networking opportunities in graduate school that are just an added perk to the subjects that you're learning. And those professors that can connect you with people who have experience with community members that they know just other ways that you can kind of expand your opportunities and expand your horizons with various career paths. So different than undergrad, because I think it is much more focused on your interests. You can really create some long term connections with your classmates. Learn about careers that you may never even have been exposed to or didn't even know existed. Because there's people in your classes that have worked in those career. Fields for so long, and then there's other students who I was kind of on the other end of the spectrum, that I only had a few years of full time work experience before I went to graduate school, so there was a lot to learn, and I just wanted to soak it all in.

Christopher Lewis:

Soaking it all in is great. And I think that there is definitely opportunities to be able to learn so much in that graduate school journey. I mean, so much from your faculty members. But as you said, the really interesting people that also surround you in your classes, that you interact with and the experiences that they bring into the classroom as well, really push you to new heights in your own understanding. Of the experience that you've had, but also to new heights in the experience that you are having in the classroom and that you can take into the work world beyond. Yes. Now, as I said, you were successful, you completed your degree, you stayed working in higher education for a bit and now are working, I'm going to say tangentially to higher education, working in K Twelve, but helping with students to make the transition into higher education. And I guess as you look and think about the degree that you did get and you think back to that education and the work that you're doing on a daily basis, how do you feel that your graduate degree prepared you for the work that you're doing?

Lora Phelps:

Yeah. When I was in grad school, there were so many classes that I didn't realize were going to become so relevant in my career field, especially when I like to use the term, I'm on the other side of the desk. Now I was on the higher education side, and now I transition to being on the K Twelve side. So I'm kind of on the other side of the desk. But also the added responsibilities that I had gained when I made that transition to be on the other side of the desk. The strategic planning that we were able to do in graduate school and some of my classes that was so relevant and real world experience, we were looking at real organizations and partnering with them and saying, hey, can we create this strategic plan for your company or your organization? Will you provide us this information? We're students, we're working on it, but we would love to help build your company or build your organization. So learning step by step how to go through a strategic plan with a company and looking at those long term goals, and then I was able to shortly after well, right after I left higher education, I worked for a nonprofit. I worked for a community foundation as well. And I had been exposed to grant writing and grants administration in graduate school. Again, I had no previous experience, but because my degree was in public administration and I was taking grants administration coursework and nonprofit agencies, and I was given the opportunity to do some grants administration as a program manager for the community foundation. And it was directly related to what I had learned in graduate school. If I had not taken those graduate level classes, I wouldn't have known anything about how to properly write a grant or grant administration. And it was just kind of priceless to have that experience. When I went into the community foundation. Same thing with budgeting. Budgeting was something I did not have experience with. Prior to grad school, I was a communications major I did not take many higher level math or finance, quantitative literacy, any courses like that, even statistics. I took a quantitative methods class in graduate school, and I thought, what have I gotten myself into? And I had an amazing professor, Chris Douglas, I believe he's still with the university. He was a fantastic professor who really put those of us in the class who had never been exposed to quantitative methods, statistics, economics, anything like that. He really put us at ease and said, I am here to help you, and this will be applicable in many career fields. And imagine that it is. I have to look at various statistics for my programs to make decisions about what makes the most sense to when I was at the community foundation creating a strategic plan, we went through the strategic planning process when I was there and creating one and working with a consulting firm. And I was able to play an integral role because I had experience and knowledge about the strategic planning. And now shifting to the K Twelve side, I was able to learn about kind of the structure of schools and administration when I was in graduate school because of the public administration piece. My professor that taught the budgeting and accounting, he was actually a former superintendent of a very large district in the state of Michigan, and he had a laundry list of experience and knowledge, and he wanted each of us to succeed. And that's what he encouraged us every single time. He's like, I know you probably have no experience with looking at a budget like this. You don't even know what each of these account numbers mean. But I'm here for you to learn that, because in so many jobs, you're going to learn how to not only look at a budget and understand a budget, but to create a budget. So there were so many courses, and those are probably the ones. My strategic planning course, my grants administration course, my budgeting, and my accounting classes were probably the four that stick out the most to me that I have taken so much knowledge that I learned there and applied it to my career field in higher education, in working for a nonprofit, and now working on the K Twelve side. It's just so transferable, all of that knowledge.

Christopher Lewis:

Appreciate you sharing that. I completely agree with you that there are so many transferable skills that you can learn along the way. And sometimes as you're going through, you don't always realize what they're going to be. And day by day, as you're going through your work, there's going to be times as you progress through your career that you are going to be like, that's what that meant. Okay, now I get it. And so just know that that's going to happen to you as you go through your graduate degree. Now as you look back at your graduate education, you look at the person that you were as an undergrad, who you were at the end of your graduate degrees, is there anything that you wish that someone would have told you prior to starting grad school that would have helped you to find success sooner?

Lora Phelps:

Honestly, the study habits and the time that it takes to be successful in graduate school for me was completely different than my undergraduate experience. And I even tell my students now, my undergraduate experience, I was that student who was and again, I talked to 15 1617 year old students, so I break it down for them. I was that student in undergrad that I was the procrastinator. I thought, I'm going to wait till the last minute and get this done. And for me, it was fine, it paid off. I did well, but I knew at some point that was going to come around and it probably wasn't going to pay off. And that's when I realized it was in grad school and I said I had to learn those study habits. I had to set a time side to do the reading. I couldn't just kind of fly by the seat of my pants and think, I got this. I'm going to do fine. I can throw out this paper in a night and be good. No, I needed to work on that paper. I needed to start it early. I needed to get feedback on my writing, because the writing level and the expectation in graduate school for me and my experience, it's much higher than my writing experience was during undergrad. There are higher expectations for students as there should be. But I was someone that had to learn that. I had to relearn all of those habits or learn them in general. So for me, it was I had to set aside time. I had to say no to still going out and doing things in the evenings because I had grad school, I had classes on the weekends, had to say, no, I have to stay home and work on these papers. Like, for me, because I was still very early on in my career, I still had to kind of make that shift from the undergraduate life, having a little bit more free time to, okay, I got to buckle down. I work full time. I'm in graduate school, taking at least two classes at a time. Sometimes there were three classes, and then in the summer, I took at least one class. But it was carving out that time that I wish somebody would have told me ahead of time I needed to do. And, hey, you need to do this reading before you go into Dr. Dyson's class because she's going to expect that you have all this done before you arrive. So those are things I wish I would have known going into it versus learning kind of the hard way and saying, like, pump the brakes a little bit, Laura. You've got to set aside some time to actually be successful. So for me, it was learning study habits that I probably should have learned during undergrad, but I didn't until grad school.

Christopher Lewis:

As we finish up today, are there any other pieces of advice you'd give to anyone, whether they're studying public administration or they're studying any graduate degree that would help them as they start and go through that experience for themselves?

Lora Phelps:

I think looking at what your ultimate goal is in figuring out your career path and finding a graduate program that can help you excel down that career path. For me, I knew I wanted to work in education and I looked at higher education, but I wanted something more broad. So doing your research to figure out what is going to be applicable in any of your career interests, not necessarily just one area, a traditional one that a lot of students think about is a Bachelor's in Business Administration and a Master's of Business Administration. But your pathway doesn't necessarily have to be that you can have a completely different pathway for your Master's program than you did for your undergraduate. And for me and what made sense for my career field was to get a little bit of experience first, to be able to make the decision that was best fit for me because I had more of a realization of what I wanted my career to look like. A few years after my undergraduate program was completed, I could make a better decision for myself. And I think it allowed me to be for my experience. It allowed me to be more successful in graduate school because I had to figure out how to balance being a student and working full time at the same time.

Christopher Lewis:

Well, Laura, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for being here today, for sharing your story, and I wish you all the best.

Lora Phelps:

Thank you.

Welcome back to another episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast! I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, and today we have a fantastic guest joining us. Scott Gifford, a Principal Engineer at Amazon, will be sharing his journey through graduate school and his success in the field of computer science. Scott started his academic career at the University of Michigan Flint, where he obtained his Bachelor of Science in Computer Science. After gaining valuable industry experience, he made the decision to further his education and earned a Master's degree from the University of Michigan in Computer Science. In this episode, we'll dive into Scott's experiences, the benefits he gained from pursuing a graduate degree, and the unexpected lessons he learned along the way. Join us as Scott reflects on his time at the University of Michigan and shares valuable insights for current and future students. Get ready for another inspiring episode of "Victors in Grad School"!

This podcast is brought to you by The Office of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan-Flint. If you're still wondering about other things to consider when it comes to graduate school, you can also contact the Office of Graduate Programs at UM-Flint. We're here to answer questions Monday – Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. EST. You can also find out more about the 50+ programs that the university has to offer here.

 

Transcript

Christopher Lewis:

Welcome to the Victors in Grad School where we have conversations with students, alumni and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in grad school. I'm your host, dr. Christopher Lewis, director of Graduate Programs for the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Thanks so much for being here because, you know, every week we have an opportunity to talk with one another about the journey that you're on. You may just be thinking about grad school, you may already be in grad school and looking at that light at the end of the tunnel or at some other point in that graduate school process. And I love being able to talk to you and share the stories of others as they have gone before you. And that's what we do. Every week I bring you a different guest, someone new that has gone to graduate school, has experienced graduate school, has learned from that experience both positive and negative about the journey and about what it took to find success. And that's what this show is all about. This week we've got another great guest with us. Scott Gifford is with us and Scott is a Principal Engineer at Amazon, but he did his bachelor's degree at the University of Michigan Flint getting a Bachelor of Science in Computer Science and then went on from there to get a Master's degree from the University of Michigan in Computer Science. So we're going to be talking to him about his own journey and learn a little bit more about his success in that as well. Scott, thanks so much for being here today.

Scott Gifford:

Dr. Lewis, thank you so much for having me on your show. I'm really excited to be here. I really loved my experience at U of Influent and so I'm excited to get to talk to you about it and talk to potential future or current or other students there. That was such a great part of both my learning and then also my personal growth and my social life and stuff like that. So excited to have a chance to be talking to you and be thinking about my days at Urban Flint.

Christopher Lewis:

So let's turn the clock back in time. I want to go back because I know you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint and at some point during that period of time it might have been during undergrad, but you also went on from there and worked and you were able to get a job and worked after getting your bachelor's degree. But at some point you made a decision that you needed to go further or wanted to go further and get that additional education and get that master's degree. What was going through your head and what made you decide that you wanted to take that next step?

Scott Gifford:

Well, so like you said, I got my undergraduate degree at U of M flint. I got a Bachelor's of Science in computer science. I went out and got a job at an early Internet provider in the area the Internet ramp and was able to reach the end of that and had some money in the bank. And I have always really valued education. I really enjoyed being in school. I really valued the things that I learned in school. And so when I had the ability financially to do so, kind of as a reward to myself for the success of my first serious job, I decided I was going to go get a master's degree. So I did it because I enjoy learning, because I enjoyed that experience, because I wanted to have it. But it's really benefited me professionally in a lot of ways, some of which I expected and some of which I didn't expect.

Christopher Lewis:

Let's talk a little bit about that. You said that there were some things that you expected and didn't expect and you benefited in different ways. Talk to me about what you learned along the way and what you truly did benefit from that experience.

Scott Gifford:

There were a couple of things that were interesting. So one of the things that I expected is that when I went in to get my master's degree, I really deepened my understanding of a lot of core things in computer science. And part of what I think made my experience so great was that I worked for quite a while, probably almost ten years, before I went back to school. And so I really appreciated the chance to be in school and focused in an environment where I could just learn instead of trying to do my job and learn a little bit on the side, just focus on learning. And I really appreciated the value of being able to put the things I learned in industry context. And so it was fun when I was in a seminar class to be able to stick my hand up and say, oh, actually, when I was working in industry, here's where we found this useful and here's how this worked out in practice. And so deepening my understanding was one of the ways that I expected it to help me, and it did. And one of the unexpected ways was it kind of reminded me how big the world is out there in terms of things to learn and things to know. And it humbled me a little bit in a good way. Like, honestly, I went into graduate school a little bit of a know it all and felt like I kind of knew everything already. And then in the process of doing that and meeting a lot of other students who were smarter than me in many ways and a lot of professors who were way smarter than me in lots of ways, it kind of humbled me in a very useful way. And it made me realize that I wasn't going to just learn everything. I needed to learn how to keep learning and continually learn to be successful and to accomplish the things that I want. So those were kind of the two broadest lessons that I learned overall while I was there.

Christopher Lewis:

Now, I know that I mentioned that you decided to go to the University of Michigan to get that Master's degree. I'm sure that you could have gone to other places and gone and got that degree at other institutions. What made you decide to go to the University of Michigan and get your Master's degree there?

Scott Gifford:

It's a great question. So I really had valued my Michigan education from U of M Flint, and at the time I went U of Mflint didn't have a graduate program or I would have considered that. I think really, I didn't really consider going anywhere else because I had been so satisfied with my undergraduate education. And it really felt like a continuation of that. It felt like taking what I had started when I was younger and just finishing it. I didn't have a specific need. I didn't necessarily need to get a Master's degree. And so, honestly, if I hadn't gone to U of M, I probably would have just done something else. I probably would have just gone back and gotten the job. But that was what I wanted to do, was get a Master's degree from U of M and Arbor. And so that's what I did.

Christopher Lewis:

Now, as you were going through that graduate degree, you found success, you finished, you graduated, you've continued in your career and have flourished in your career. So talk to me about as you made that transition from work into that Master's degree and had to change from your mindset of being an undergraduate student to a graduate student. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success and what did you have to do to maintain that success as you went through the entire graduate school journey?

Scott Gifford:

Something that I think did set me up for success in grad school was my experience at U of M Flint as a smaller school for undergrad. So I was already pretty accustomed to sticking my hand up and asking questions of professors because our classes were small enough that I could do that. I was already pretty accustomed to just swinging by a professor's office with a question or an idea. I wanted to bounce off them because Unflinton had a small enough campus that I knew all my professors well and had relationships with them when I could do that. And so a lot of the other students that I saw there struggled with that a little bit. They saw this big distance between them and the professors, and it made it hard for them to really engage like the graduate student should. Because to me, that was the big difference was you get a lot more of this direct one on one attention from professors, and you can learn directly from them and ask them specific questions about what you want to learn and how you want to direct your studies versus just going through a course of curriculum. So I feel like that made me very well prepared. I think the two things that really made me successful there, one was staying pretty well organized. I'm not an organized person by nature at all and so I have to kind of make my weakness my strength. At the time, I had a binder with a calendar and all my notes and I kept track of everything and when to do it and stuff like that. And just being well organized is something that's hard for me, but it was something that's worth doing and it was important to me to make it through that. The other thing was to really focus on it and appreciate it. I was glad that I didn't have a lot of other responsibilities at the time because I was able to just go into a lecture and focus all my attention on a lecture and not being thinking about 100 other things I have to do or being distracted by other things. I felt like when I went back to get my master's degree, I really appreciated that I was able to be in a classroom with somebody whose job it was to teach me stuff rather than trying to beg, borrow and steal knowledge like you do in the work world. And so really just sitting back and focusing and enjoying that and focusing all my attention on it, paying a lot more attention to it than I frankly did in undergrad where I was often sort of half paying attention and letting my mind wander in classes. So I really learned a lot just by staying focused on things and paying attention to what was going on and asking good questions, I guess was the other thing that I think made me successful, asking good questions when I didn't understand. And often those good questions led to further conversations with the professors, sometimes led to relationships. Actually my first job after grad school was as a research programmer at the university and so that was developed by the relationships I had with professors by asking them questions and stopping by their office hours and stuff like that.

Christopher Lewis:

Appreciate you sharing that because definitely those are some of the things you definitely have to do. And you mentioned the fact that you're not organized and you had to put some things in place. What did you have to actually do? What are some of the steps that you had to set up for yourself to make sure that you are going to be more organized through that process? Or what did you have to do to force yourself to be more organized in that process?

Scott Gifford:

Really the key thing for me was to think about the organization as a first class concern, like to sit back and make a plan for how I was going to stay organized. Now, the plan that I actually had was to buy a binder and put a calendar in the binder and put separators between all of my classes and keep everything in one place and organize it that way. Probably I would do something a little bit more high tech now, right? That was probably 25 years ago or something, right? So a binder with removable pages in a calendar felt pretty high tech. Now I would probably use a phone or an iPad or something to keep track of that, like I do for work. But really just thinking about whenever something important comes out, knowing that I was not going to remember this if I didn't take some step. And so thinking, what step can I take to make sure I remember that? And really just in my undergrad, I would just try my best to remember things. And honestly, I was a little younger then, so I did remember things a little bit better. But in grad school, I found that you weren't constantly getting reminded of things, right? Your professors respected you a bit more or respected me a bit more as an adult who could manage my own time and priorities. And so they would just tell me something was due in two months and expect that I would remember that. And so just making sure I thought about that date as like a first class thing to keep track of and working back from that date and how am I going to coordinate with my teammates on a group project and stuff like that. Just really thinking about scheduling as one of the primary concerns instead of just like saying, oh, I'll just do it as an afterthought, it'll probably work out.

Christopher Lewis:

Now, I know that, as you said, it's been a number of years since you got that graduate degree. And as you think back to that graduate education and look at the work that you're doing now with Amazon, do you feel that that graduate degree prepared you for the work that you do on a daily basis?

Scott Gifford:

So I use the things I learned in that graduate degree every day more so at this stage in my career. So my role here at Amazon in Detroit is the principal engineer. And the role that I have is to make sure that we're building sort of cohesive architectures where we have hundreds of different teams at Amazon building things. And so I work with about 20 of them and making sure they're all building things that will make sense and work together. And so I need to be able to very quickly drop into some system I haven't seen before and advise teams on whether it's likely to work or not in the end. And so the broad knowledge that I got in my master's degree of algorithms and data structures lets me very quickly analyze those systems, jump in and say where I think they're going to perform well, where I think they're not going to perform well. The deep knowledge I got of databases is something I use every day. Thinking about data management, understanding how we need to store the petabytes and petabytes and petabytes of data, probably exabytes of data that we have here at amazon. How? We need to arrange the parts of the data that I'm responsible for to make sure that we can process them later in an effective way. Use things from the operating systems class that I took just to reason about what's going on under the hood when a program is running, or to look at an architecture and be able to visualize all the way down. To the operating system layer what's going on? And then to be able to use the hardware class I took to visualize what's going on with the processor. Just having the right mental model where I can take a system I'm looking at, read a description of it and then quickly visualize in my head what are the data structures and algorithms that are here, what are the data access patterns, how is this going to interact with the operating system? How is that going to work with the hardware below it? Being able to quickly have that insight and having a framework to plug new knowledge into is probably the way that it's been most helpful to me.

Christopher Lewis:

So as you look back at your graduate education, you think about your younger self even before you got into graduate school. Are there things that you wish that someone would have told that would have helped you to find success sooner?

Scott Gifford:

Yes, there's one very specific example that comes to mind, is that at my very first job, we had a problem where you would press a button to manage an issue in our support queue in software that I had written, and 90% of the time it would work, and the other 10% of the time it wouldn't work. And I had no idea why, and eventually just had to create a way to delete those things that were stuck because they couldn't get out and we didn't know what to do about it. Well, one of my first graduate school classes I took, I guess probably it was my second year, was about parallel computing and learned about concurrency and learned about race conditions. And I had a bit of an AHA moment where I said that's what happened to me five years ago is there was a race condition but I didn't know what that was. I didn't have the right mental framework to be able to think about it. So that's a very specific example. More generally, I would have benefited from kind of the humility that came from being in a larger world and being a little bit less of a know it all earlier in my career, being a little bit more willing to go out and ask questions and learn more and go in depth versus assuming that I already knew the answer. And lots of things that I learned myself in my spare time about operating systems, about hardware, about networking, about databases, a lot of those things early in my career, I kind of learned in the school of hard knocks, right? You create a database and it doesn't work, and you don't know why, and so you go Google for why isn't it working? And you learn about indexes and data structures and efficient access patterns and stuff like that. Those are all things I learned in advance in graduate school, right? And so if I had gone into my first job with that set of knowledge where I could plug new facts into and the right frame of reference for all of these things and even really properly understanding like each of these is a complex field of study on its own. I think I would have been able to approach problems more analytically. And instead I approached them a little bit ad hoc. Something would go wrong with a system I was responsible for, and I might have to pull an all nighter to figure out what was wrong with it and get it back and running. Whereas after my graduate career, it was a little bit easier for me to sit back analytically, spend some time thinking, and say, I have a hypothesis about what this is, and here's how I think we can fix it, versus just throwing everything at the wall and seeing what it stuck.

Christopher Lewis:

Also, as we finish up today, as you think about graduate school and you think about the journey that you went on specifically, is there any advice that you would give to other students, whether they're going for a graduate degree in computer science or just a graduate degree in general that you would put out there that would help them to again find success during that graduate school journey.

Scott Gifford:

I guess I'd have a couple of pieces of advice. One is it's fun and it's not ten times harder than an undergraduate degree. I felt like a lot of people I talked to think, oh, I could never do that. I would never go back and do that. I've been working for too long. I could never get back into school mode. But I found it was pretty easy and actually pretty enjoyable to go from work mode back to school mode. And I really appreciate it a lot more after having been in industry. So if it's something if you're mid career and thinking about going back and getting a master's degree, I think that's very doable. I think lots of people do that successfully. And I felt like I was able to use my skills from the work world to be more successful as a later graduate student than many of the students that I saw who came directly from undergrad and maybe hadn't learned the organizational skills and didn't have the right context to really know how stuff would apply. I think the other thing I would say is sit back and enjoy it. It was an enjoyable experience and I really learned the most when I sat back and paid attention to what professors were saying, engaged in a conversation with them, asked questions, used the office hours, just really took advantage of all the things that were available. Use the graduate library, right, which is one of the best technical resources available. And just really take advantage of the fact that you have access to the resources of a really great institution, including its professors, in a way. That you'll really never have again after that experience because you have a group of people whose job it is to impart knowledge and wisdom to you. And after that, in your career, you'll find that, like I said earlier, you have to sort of beg, borrow and steal that knowledge and try to find good mentors who will teach you what they've learned and stuff like that. So it's a unique opportunity to just really focus on learning and deepening your knowledge. And the more you take advantage of all the stuff available versus just trying to figure out what's the minimum you can do to get through, I think the more that you benefit from it later.

Christopher Lewis:

Well, Scott, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your own story today, for sharing your own journey, and I wish you all the best.

Scott Gifford:

Thank you, Dr. Lewis, for having me on. I really appreciate it. I really enjoyed talking to you and thanks for giving me a chance to relive some of my great memories. From U of M Flint and from.

Welcome back to the Victors in Grad School podcast, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about finding success in graduate school. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, and today we have a fascinating guest joining us. Dylan Straka, the Vice President for Finance at Premier Security Solutions and one of the Greater Flint area's "40 under 40 to watch," will be sharing his experiences and insights with us.

In this episode, Dylan takes us on a journey through his educational path, starting with his undergraduate degree in accounting from the University of Michigan Flint. He then delves into his decision to pursue a master's degree in accounting and finance, highlighting the unique situations that motivated him, including the financial support from his grandparents and the opportunity to gain work experience at a local accounting firm.

Dylan also provides valuable advice on managing the delicate balance between full-time work and graduate school. From time management strategies to reaching out to professors for support, he shares valuable insights on how to navigate the challenges of juggling multiple responsibilities.

Tune in to this episode of Victors in Grad School as we explore the journey of a driven and successful professional who has found his path to success by pursuing graduate education. Let's dive into the conversation with Dylan Straka.

 

This podcast is brought to you by The Office of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan-Flint. If you're still wondering about other things to consider when it comes to graduate school, you can also contact the Office of Graduate Programs at UM-Flint. We're here to answer questions Monday – Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. EST. You can also find out more about the 50+ programs that the university has to offer here.

 

Transcript

Christopher Lewis:

Welcome back to the Victors in grad school podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, director of Graduate Programs for the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, we're on a journey together. I love being able to talk to you every week as you are thinking about grad school. You're in grad school looking at that light at the end of the tunnel, or you're just figuring it out as you go along. This podcast is all about helping you find success in that grad school journey. And there are specific things that you can do. No matter if you're going to grad school to get an MBA versus going to law school or med school, there's lots of things that you can do to make sure that you are successful. And we do that every week by bringing on great guests. People that have gone before you have done this, have been successful and are coming to share their own experiences with you. And with every person that comes on, I learn a little bit. I know that you'll learn a lot as well as you listen in. And this week, we've got another great guest with us today. Dylan Straeka is with us today. And Dylan is the vice president for finance for Premier Security Solutions. He also last year was named one of the Greater Flint areas, 40 under 40 to watch. And I am really excited to be able to have him on here today, to be able to learn about his own experience and to have him share that with you. Dylan, thanks so much for being here today.

Dylan Straka:

Thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to it.

Christopher Lewis:

Well, I'm excited to have you here and to have you talk about your own experiences. And I know that what I would love to do is be able to turn the clock back because you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint. You got a BBA in Accounting here, and then you went on and continued on to get a MBA in Accounting and finance. And I would love to go back in time because I know that at some point in time, as you were going through that undergraduate degree, there had to have been some point in time where you said to yourself, I want to continue, I want to get that master's degree. What were the reasons that you chose to continue on and to go forward to get that master's degree and go into graduate school?

Dylan Straka:

There were two kind of unique situations, one being I had the funds to cover it. People ask you all the time, what motivates you? And my answer is always my grandparents. My grandma grew up very poor in the south. She had a third grade education. She actually went hungry a lot upon her passing. Her will left money for my brother and I to go to college. She wanted to make sure we wouldn't have to experience the same hardships that she did. I stayed local. I went to Mott for my first year and then U of M Flint. So the money that I would have had to spend on room and board was actually really able to cover over half of my Masters. So I was fortunate kind of in that regard. But the other thing, as you mentioned, I got my undergrad from U of M Flint, and that was partially driven because of work experience. The company I had worked for throughout high school knew I wanted to go into accounting. The owners both went to U of M Flint. They met there, as a matter of fact, and said, hey, we know you want to go into accounting. What if we open up a position here for you? Basically, we know you want a U of M fan, so you'll get your U of M degree and you can get some experience while you go to school. So I worked throughout all four years of my undergrad, which created, because of my age, a unique situation that, to advance further, I couldn't just make up the years. I needed the education. And so as soon as I graduated with my BBA, I went right into my MBA program.

Christopher Lewis:

The fact that you just said that as you were going through that bachelor's degree, you did work full time, and you had to do a lot of balancing, I'm sure, to try and not only do that full time work, but also be able to be successful in your undergraduate degree as well. So talk to me about balance and how you were able to best balance that work that you did as you went through your degrees.

Dylan Straka:

I was fortunate that most of my undergrad was part time. I did take a semester off, and because of that first job, triggered an early internship with a local accounting firm. And so I did have that semester off. But once I went full time into a new role after I graduated with my bachelor's, it was a challenge at first, I'll be honest. I had to figure that out and maneuver that and try a few different things. And one transparently was and my advice to anyone going into a Master's program, you have to do some of the work every single day. You might only have a class on a day or two, and like many of you, maybe in undergrad, I tried to cram it all in on Sunday. That does not work in the Master's program. Even if you can only get in 45 minutes or an hour of work every day, you have to get that in. And with that scheduling and mine was an instant night and day difference from being part time and just having to focus on school to being full time employer and then school on top of it. But many of my classmates also had the responsibility. They were married, they had spouses, they had children. So that created all other schedules. So really the schedule and I'm more in finance now, but the position I was in during my MBA was more accounting based, so I had tax time as well. So where periods I worked 50 or 60 hours a week. So you really have to manage your time properly. And unfortunately, and many people will attest to this, just being transparent, some of your social things will have to you have to give that up for a little while, but the sacrifice is worth the reward 110%. I think the thing too, and I saw an instant transition with this as well, was you're in class with your colleagues and the professors, some of them switched from being Miss Professor So and So to by their first name. We would go out for drinks after class sometimes and things like that. And they saw you more as a peer and a respect came with that because you are a working employee. With that, your professors really want to help you. And so they understand if you have situations come up with work or with family life, so go to them. I think that's the biggest advice I can say. They have office hours that so often go unutilized. And I think people are a little bit fearful at first, especially me, because I was a young MBA student. But they really want to help you.

Christopher Lewis:

Some students are definitely afraid to step out to make those relationships, or they don't know how to create those relationships because there is that power imbalance, we'll say, or a sense of a power imbalance that they have experienced through their undergraduate degree that as you just mentioned many times, will flip or change. There still is a knowledge imbalance, but the power differential is different in graduate school. Talk to me about what you or other students that you saw, what you did to be able to create those strong bonds with your faculty members as you made that transition into graduate school.

Dylan Straka:

The dynamic and the discussions in the classroom were night and day difference. And I was much more engaged in the grad than the undergrad because my very first class, I sat down and transparently. I was the youngest person in that class. It was all working people, most of them. Their company was paying for them to come back to school so they could further advance. And you went from discussing theory to real life problems. Classmates would bring, hey, we're really struggling with this, with work. And if it was applicable, the whole class would try to solve it. Or if it wasn't, it could be a topic that quickly went off that a classmate had had experience within their professional working career. For me, as a young person. It was really educational. They became a huge resource for me and still are to this day. There's a group of us that we still bounce ideas off of one another. And I think just the context of the conversations that the professor and the student can talk on a level that in some shape or form have somewhat each experience with it shifted that dynamic and respect a little bit.

Christopher Lewis:

You just said that you were one of the youngest in your classes and that during those classes a lot of times, especially in an MBA, but in other fields as well, the people that are in those classes are bringing their professional experience and making the learning tangible. Being young. Talk to me about what you had to do to be able to overcome some of that lack of experience, even though you were working as an undergraduate, to be able to feel like you were contributing as much as those that might have been in the workforce for.

Dylan Straka:

Ten plus years or some 20 or 30 I had even found that really wanted to advance for those last ten years. I think I was always respectful of their knowledge. I had still had a few years under my belt and had worked in divisions that others hadn't. So that gave me a little bit of an advantage. But I've always been an advocate for never be afraid to ask a question, even if you think it's stupid, because there's likely someone else that is going to ask it in the room. So have a desire to learn. And I always tried to be a sponge and pick up wherever I could. Probably one advantage I had, especially over some of my classmates, I had worked with some on a team that were in their fifty s and the technology piece of it. Technology was a piece that had to be ingrained into me. It was part of the education system when I went. But my classmates in their 50s, that could be a challenge for them. So that was a little bit of advantage that I had in areas where they had the years on experience.

Christopher Lewis:

Now, you talked about the fact that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint. You continued your degree at the University of Michigan Flint. You probably could have gone other places and because of that you still chose to stay and to continue your degree. Talk to me about that and what was going through your head as you were making that decision of where you wanted to continue and get your master's degree and why you ended up deciding to stay and continue your education at the University of Michigan Flint.

Dylan Straka:

That's a great question and I have a few answers for this one. Transparently was proximity. The company that I had started with during my undergrad was a few blocks away. So being close by was very advantageous to me. Another was the hours my advice to anyone is if you can do your MBA in class, in person, do it. And specifically, it seems like the U of M flint's MBA program was designed around working people. They realized that a majority of their people were working professionals. And I had late night classes or mixed mode classes. And the flexibility of the schedule and to actually get my degree done in the time I wanted was very appealing to me. And I don't think Transparently U of Employment gets the credit for the caliber of the professors and then the students that go there. A dear friend of mine, I met him in my first class, my first day in my MBA program his company was sending him back to because they wanted to make him CEO of their company. And that totally surprised me, but didn't, as I learned as time went on, know we had kids that were commuting from Detroit in various suburbs of major cities because they realized the caliber of the program that we had.

Christopher Lewis:

I really appreciate you sharing that as well, because I've seen that myself and I see the quality of instructors here. And I guess as you think about success and you talked about a success in a number of different ways, but you were successful. You got through your master's degree. And as you made that transition from your undergraduate degree into graduate school through graduate school, and you think back on it now, what do you feel that you had to do to set yourself up for success and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your graduate school journey?

Dylan Straka:

And this was also kind of part the surprising piece that I wasn't expecting in the Grad program was the networking. What you put into the degree, you will get out of it. And I really made an effort to try to get to know my professors and my classmates. And we had classmates, Chris, that hired one another. Job opportunities came up, and then all of a sudden, it was their class colleague, but it was also their boss from nine to five during the day. And from that we helped someone would be applying for a job or interviewing or get an offer letter. We would help them negotiate. And then I think something people don't realize also is your professor is more than a just professor. Most of them come from corporate backgrounds at U of M flint. They have their own contacts and have a genuine desire to help. So we had professor connections that maybe it didn't lead to a job, but maybe it led to some business opportunities to do business together. So I would say that was in terms of the success that was advantageous to me, and I think that could be advantageous to anyone pursuing a master's degree at U of M flint.

Christopher Lewis:

It's been a few years since you've finished that master's degree. Now that you've completed that degree, and you think about the graduate education that you went through. How do you feel that you use that graduate degree on a daily basis? And how has it prepared you for the next steps in your career?

Dylan Straka:

Something to note for everyone listening, I was at U of M Flint for eight straight years and partially considering going back for another degree. So if that doesn't show my love for it, I don't know what does. But to answer your question, working with teams, that was especially in the MBA program in the business world, it is very collaborative. You are not siloed off. And no matter if it's Finance, Marketing, Technology, Operations, they all work together. And U of M from my very first class pushed that. I think every class we had to do some type of a teams project, and you got every walk of life with that. So part the teams and then part that MBA. The program was designed so well that, like I said, Technology, Marketing, Finance, Operations, you had to take classes in all of those. And so even though I'm Accounting Finance focused, I feel like I have better understanding of how each division functions. I've had meetings today alone in various different departments, and you get pulled into those. So I think having a better understanding of it really gave you more confidence to speak about, hey, this might not be my background, but I do have some education in this regard, and I think I can be helpful in it. And it's the team atmosphere 100%.

Christopher Lewis:

So as you think back to your graduate degree and think back really to that transition that you went through again from undergraduate to graduate, and you think to that younger self, are there things that you wish that you would have known or that you wish that someone would have told you? That would have helped you find success in grad school that much sooner.

Dylan Straka:

Part of it would go back to it is 110% worth the sacrifice, but in terms of social aspects, you will have to sacrifice to do it. I think it's your quality of life after the fact and your knowledge and your experience you gain from it is worth it every time. I also think too, no one's holding a gun to your head into what timeline you have to have this done. Take it at your own pace. There were periods where maybe my work or my personal life were going to be more relaxed and I could take an extra class or two, or maybe I learned quickly that during tax time, I needed to take less courses. And then it kind of molded into a new shape as I went into it, and it worked out so much better, but just be okay with that, that I was just going to get a general MBA. And then I realized the caliber of the classes in that getting. I got an accounting concentration and then a finance concentration with that as well. Those three extra classes, because they were so specific and honed in, they were worth the extra year it took me. And then with that a little bit, I think just kind of bookending. Something I said earlier is that this is not something that you can try to cram in on a Sunday. And I think especially so many of my classmates, their corporation or their company was paying for them to do it, be transparent with work. I had several classmates that sometimes, especially during finals time and things like that, their corporation gave them an hour or two that particular week, every day to work on coursework, because they saw the value they're investing in you financially. They want you to be successful, they want you to do well in a course. I think knowing all those things would be really helpful to anybody going into.

Christopher Lewis:

It as we finish up today. Dylan, any other final thoughts? Any other tips that you might share with a prospective graduate student, someone that's thinking maybe an MBA, but could be something else that you have gleaned in your own experience that you feel that could help them to find success?

Dylan Straka:

My advice would be to anyone that if you're thinking about it, take a class, take one, see if you like it. I even had friends in my first class that started out in the MBA and switched to an MSA, a Master's in Accounting. And if your goal is to professionally grow and gain more experience, gain more education, don't feel like you have to do this multi year major, whole degree, try a class and see how it goes from there. That would be my biggest piece of advice. And I even had classmates that their company really wanted them to get better acquainted in a specific subject. So even though they signed up for it, they just took three classes in technology and it or three classes in finance. It was transformational for them in their work life.

Christopher Lewis:

Well, Dylan, I just want to say thank you for sharing your own experience with us and for all of the things that you shared today, and I wish you all the best.

Dylan Straka:

Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. It was fun.

Welcome back to another episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast! In today's episode, we have a special guest, Kris Johns, who will be sharing his educational journey and offering valuable advice on pursuing a graduate degree. Kris will delve into the importance of learning how to learn, the demanding nature of graduate school, and the accessibility of online resources. He will also emphasize the significance of gaining practical experience through internships and building connections in one's field. Additionally, Kris will reflect on his own experiences and share the lessons he wishes he had learned earlier in his academic journey. So grab a cup of coffee and get ready to dive into an enlightening conversation on career development and furthering education. 

 

This podcast is brought to you by The Office of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan-Flint. If you're still wondering about other things to consider when it comes to graduate school, you can also contact the Office of Graduate Programs at UM-Flint. We're here to answer questions Monday – Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. EST. You can also find out more about the 50+ programs that the university has to offer here.

 

Transcript

Christopher Lewis:

Welcome back to the Victors in grad school podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. This week, as always, we're having a conversation. We're talking about this journey that you are on that you're thinking about maybe in the future or you're applying right now or you're in graduate school and you're seeing that light at the end of the proverbial tunnel. And we're talking about success. We're talking about how you can find success during that journey and also making you think about a lot of different things in different ways to be able to think about graduate school in different ways, to be able to help you along this journey that you're on. And every week we do that by talking to other people, people that have gone before you, that have gone ahead of you and have experienced this journey for themselves. So I love being able to talk to different people every week and be able to get their perspectives on graduate school. And everyone has a little bit different perspective and a little bit different journey that they can share with you, that'll help you to form the plan that you need to be able to be successful in that journey that you're on today. We got another great guest. Kris Johns is with us today. And Kris has been working in, I'm going to say social media and digital media and working in a lot of different areas for a number of years. Kris did his undergrad work at U of M. Flint. Then went and got his first master's degree at Michigan State University in Human Resource Management and Labor Relations. Then got another master's degree in Health Services Administration in Health Management and Policy. And as I said, he's done a number of different things in his career and I'm really excited to be able to learn from him and to talk with him today about that journey that he's been on. Kris, thanks so much for being here today.

Kris Johns:

Thank you, Chris, very much.

Christopher Lewis:

I really appreciate you being here today. And I guess first and foremost what I would love to do is turn the clock back in time. I'd love to go back to maybe back to the days when you were at U of Influent for the first time, working on that undergraduate degree. At some point, whether it was during undergrad or right after your undergraduate experience, there was some point in time where you made the choice. You made the choice that you wanted to take that next step. You wanted to go on to graduate school. Talk to me about what was that impetus that made you say, this is what I want to do and this is the direction I'm going to go. 

Kris Johns:

Excellent question. So we'll go to the origin story. In high school I was a midling student and my origin story was I actually had a former girlfriend. I was going to go to Not Community College. She was going to come to u of m Flint. And we by just happened to Chance in the summer of 1999, accompanied her to U of M. Flint. And I thought, this is a nice place. And I said, would you admit me? And they said, do you have money? And I said yes. And they said, well, you're in. And so I was a member of that fall 1999 class. And I think for me, U of M. Flint really gave me the foundation to be involved socially and academically. My family has a background in the labor movement. Really. Almost all my family members on my dad's side were a card carrying union member of some sort. And so I was interested in labor relations. And there was a handful of schools in the Midwest, also out east that had labor relations schools. So it's now called something different at Michigan State, but it was called the Master's of labor and Industrial Relations. And the key piece there was that next step would be a master's degree. And I think just the one first cautionary tale I want to share with the listeners is I was way too young. I graduated from U of M flint in three years. I went year round and I thought that I had to do this to get onto the next journey. And in this case, I graduated from U of M. Flint 21. I entered graduate school at 21. That was too young of an age. And I think the first takeaway that I would encourage people is just to enjoy the journey because, Chris, you love your job, but it's work. At the end of the day, it's still a job. You're leaving your house, you're putting a nice shirt and tie on and you're kind of going someplace else for five days a week for 40 plus hours. And I want to emphasize to the folks thinking about graduate school that enjoy your life. And nothing I did in regards to getting out of school early put me any further ahead than I would have if I would have waited a year or even two years to whether it be work full time or do different pieces. But to get back to where how I did that is I did internships. And that was really the key. And I led this off that I was a middling student in high school. I was a 3.2 student at U of M. Flint. My GRE scores were okay, but what was critical was the internships. I did an internship at the UAW 659 in Flint and then I also did one in labor relations at what is Genesis Regional Medical Center, which has a different name now, but that was a signal to graduate school that I was serious. And I just cannot emphasize more than enough to the people listening, please do an internship. It doesn't need to be your classic 20 hours a week internship. I did one while I did a three credit internship as a class, but then I also just made connections, because ultimately, if you had a five hour a week internship, if those are five quality hours of exposure, that will help you just as much as 20 hours of sitting in an office filing papers. And what I would encourage people and there's the other side of that is it gives you an exposure to see, because, again, a lot of careers, they look very sexy and cool from the outside, but when you have to do it every day, it's a different view. And doing that internship is a wonderful signal to both future employers, your first employer as well as graduate schools, that you're serious about your field.

Christopher Lewis:

Getting an internship is so important. Getting some experience is so important, as you are looking at even your undergraduate degree, getting out there while you're in that undergraduate degree, even if you're in high school, taking some time, and if you think that it's a field that you have an interest in, take the time. Shadow some people, start easy and at least see what people do and see what people do in different types of places and different types of scenarios. So I use the example of if you want to become a physical therapist. If you want to become a physical therapist. Physical therapists work in many different locations. They work with kids, they work with athletes. They work in clinical and hospital settings. They work in outpatient settings. Just because you think you want to be a physical therapist, you might not want to work with pediatric patients, okay, that's fine. But understand what the different routes that are available. Or if you're looking at a degree like psychology, well, what would you want to do in know all those type of things. And the more that you can like what you were saying, Chris, you get an internship, you get some experience, you shadow people so important. So as you were doing that for yourself and you found that you wanted to do that first Master's degree, talk to me about what you learned along the way that led you down the path of then looking like in your career trajectory, you may have pivoted a little bit. You got that first master's, and then you made some pivots and maybe didn't stay in labor relations completely. So along the way, what did you learn about yourself and about the career that made you decide to move in a different direction?

Kris Johns:

Well, excellent question, Chris. I think the first piece was for myself. Again, it was 20 years ago. Exactly. Right now, I was in Phoenix, Arizona, doing an internship for Honeywell, and that was a corporate internship. And that was a strategic mistake. I had one internship offer to do labor relations for Sikorsky Helicopter in Connecticut and the other was to do a human generalist internship in Phoenix. And I wanted to have fun and I wanted to go to Phoenix. Well, the problem was I had too much fun and the job offer never came. And think the other side that I realized there is that if you want to niche down, commit to the niche. In hindsight, if 20 years ago if I would have chose to be labor relations, I think my life would be a lot different. I would be in a different spot, but I still would be working. I mean, I don't know if I'd be a better person today, but I think professionally things would be a lot different. And I think so in terms of that piece, the lesson learned is number one, niche down. And I know it's kind of difficult early, but for example, you mentioned physical therapy. If you maybe go to a senior rehab and then you go to a pediatrics and you go to a sports and you said, I really love working with kids, then commit to that in the sense that the more people you know in that industry, it will help you. And I think that's also the other piece I want to go as part of this, at least for the first master's degree it allowed me to do is knowing those people, allowed me to get letters of recommendation that were outside of my teachers, outside of my professors, which were very helpful. But what was very nice is that when you have people who work in the industry who potentially are known by other people, that letter of recommendation is very powerful because again, let's look at this holistically. Is there's grades as a big component, your GRE scores. But then the other two sides is going to be your internship, your experiences and then also who you know. And I think the one piece that really ultimately I tell people I'm in the relationship business, I've done a lot of different things. I'll continue to do a lot of things. I have a day job and a side hustle and all of that is based off of my personal relationships. And graduate school gave me an excellent foundation for just the technical knowledge. But I think the one thing that young people is that graduate school is not a silver bullet. And I'll tell this story in a little bit once we get to the U of M piece. But the key critical thing is that people want to work with nice folks. And I think the more you get to know people in your field and let them know you as a brand, again, you showing up, being dependable, asking questions. And this is where I would encourage really students of any age to get involved with your professional society. There's often either a free student, know again, now, these meetings with Zoom, you can be in the room with people from across the country, around the world in the same lobby, and people will know that name. And the reason I mentioned that is to your point, Dr. Lewis, kind of like what you can do to prepare. I would encourage people as a student to reach out to folks, because I don't think anybody would say no to a student saying, I'm a student at XYZ, at U of M Flint. I'm the class of 2024. I'd like to learn more about you and get your pointers. I believe eight out of ten people would say yes to a phone call. And nowadays, with Zoom, it's even easier. And what will help you is, twofold, you're going to learn from other people's mistakes. If you were to speak with me, I have a lot of mistakes I would tell you about, but I would also have things that worked out, I would share with that. And then the other side is the million dollar question is, who else should I talk to? And I think when you get to that point in your career and in that learning, that is mission critical, because that's what's going to help you get maybe the second job is your network. Yes, you're going to need to have a degree that's kind of mandatory for many jobs, but once you fulfill that requirement, it's a checkbox. It's very rare that employers go, oh, he went to U of M versus this school. It's more they have a degree check. And then it's a case of, well, he knows this person, and they work together on that project. And so my thesis here is just get involved, and whether it be from the internship or a professional society, you're going to end up meeting people who will know other people through their network that will help you make that next transition.

Christopher Lewis:

I mentioned the fact that you went from U of Mflant with your bachelor's degree. You went to Michigan State, and you kind of talked about the fact that you chose that because they had that specific program that you specifically wanted in labor relations. And then actually following that degree, you came back and you went to the University of Michigan for another master's degree. So talk to me about you're in the middle of that master's degree or in that master's degree and decide you want to get a second master's degree. What made you choose to go to the University of Michigan for the Master of Health Services Administration, and what made you choose the University of Michigan?

Kris Johns:

As I mentioned, I was doing a corporate internship for Know, a large multinational conglomerate, and our summer project was outsourcing. How can we find engineers in China, India, and the Czech Republic? And that just put a little bit of a sour taste in my mouth, and I think just kind of the corporate piece as well. And going back, I did an intern, a semester long internship at what is now Ascension Grand Blank. I don't know if it's Ascension Genesis, but genesis Regional Medical Center in Grand Blank. And I enjoyed healthcare. And I thought wrongly at the time that you can't outsource healthcare. I've since learned you can. But put it in context though, I was at this age, roughly 22, 23, so still very young. And I think this kind of goes back to the piece about I had rushed through U of M, Flint. I did spring and summer, two semester, two years of spring and summer. So I was done before really a month after I turned 21. I was too young. I just professionally, from a maturation standpoint, I needed just to be somewhere else and maybe even just an entry level job for a couple of years. But alas, I put myself in a position where it was two things. It was kind of an interest in healthcare, in working locally. And the second piece was the job market wasn't so hot. So if I would have gotten a job and then at this had it initially I had a girlfriend went to You've Been Flint together. She broke up with me. But after a couple of months, I think it was the best for everybody. And then I had met a new person who's my wife. Now I myself, if you were to say, Chris, we need you to be in Dubuque, Iowa in the morning, I'd be there. I'd be, know, ready to go. She is not an adventurer like that. So she was from the flyn area. And it was a case where it just know, learning from mistakes and just know the corporate piece. Because if I would have gotten that job through Michigan State, it would have been a two year rotation where you live somewhere else every eight months and then you would be going from location to location and you'd be a professional. Itinerant professional, but it would not be a sedentary lifestyle. And so as part of that, I'm now into what would be the fall of 2004 and kind of making that decision and applied and had the background. And I had applied to several graduate schools, so I applied to Iowa, also to the University of Alabama, Birmingham, and then to U of M. And U of M at the time was ranked number mean as far as a student profile. I was an okay student and I was accepted, which I was very surprised kind of looking at back in hindsight. I think they have some slots for people from Michigan because it was an international, diverse cohort. And I think the number of people from Michigan were maybe in the single digits. But I was from Michigan and it was an excellent learning. And so from that side, it really was a case of just like, looking at what the future was in healthcare and knowing that Michigan has large health care systems. And so for myself, I had graduated. But again, going back to the internship piece, I had did an internship with the Veterans Administration in Saginaw that summer of 2004. So I had graduated from Michigan State in May, and then I started an internship. And so that entire summer I was commuting from Flint to Saginaw to work for the VA. And it was a paid internship. I learned a tremendous amount. And that was a case where that kind of gave me that exposure to healthcare. And there's some other mistakes I made, but going forward. But I think what's kind of mission critical was that the U of M piece was. I know many people are interested in rankings, and I was as well as a student, so I can't say no. But at the time they were ranked number one in US. News and World Report, which they always reminded us whenever tuition was due or there was a test, that you're number one and having that master's degree. And I kind of see that first degree from Michigan State really being an extension of undergrad. I just kind of did political science. I really rushed through my three years at U of M Flint, and that was kind of really my time to just become a bit more mature. I made a number of lifelong friends at Michigan State that I still hold till to this day. That friendship has helped me out in many other professional endeavors. And so at this point, we're now at U of M. And I was accepted really primarily. Again, my GRE scores were they asked me to take the GRE again. I got the same exact score as I did the first time. But I think it was a case of having the degree, having that professional experience, really bringing a good amount of professional experience to day one was very helpful to going to U of M-A-N arbor.

Christopher Lewis:

You made it through two different graduate degrees. You found success in that journey and came out on the other side with your degrees in hand. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success in each of those degrees? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout that graduate school journey?

Kris Johns:

Yes, so I think the success piece was really the experience both at Michigan State and at U of M. It's one thing to learn it in a book or read about it or hear about it, and it's another thing to see it. And I know I've been mentioning the internships a number of times, but for example, when I was at Michigan State, I was able to sit in also at Genesis on contract labor relations, contract negotiation. So when I was at Michigan State, we had a class on contract negotiation. And I was using terms that the professionals used and that students just would not have known of because they just were never in that environment. And it wasn't to say I was any better, but just I learned things that you wouldn't have learned in the book. You really wouldn't have learned till your first job. And it really helped shape that piece. And I think the other side of setting up for success is just looking at it holistically. Ultimately, I was very focused on the ranking. I think even if Ann Arbor was ranked 10th, I still would have applied. I mean, if they ranked 100th, I would have been interested. But for myself, it was a case of just having the professional experience to kind of know what you want to do, because for both degrees, if you knew where you were going, like, for me, I wish I would have stuck with labor relations. Things would have been a lot different. And then going into the healthcare degree, it was just I made some strategic blunders there. But I think the setup for success was the experience and then also having some connections that you could draw back on. And in this case, when I was going into U of M, I had worked at had spent time at Genesis, also at the VA. So I had known people that I was actually able to call on for classes while at U of M. So.

Christopher Lewis:

You completed both of these degrees, and as I said, you've done some Pivoting in your career, and you are doing a lot of work right now in digital media, social media, and working with a number of different clients in the corporate world. So as you look back now and you look back at the degrees that you received, your bachelor's, your two master's degrees, how do you feel that those graduate degrees prepared you for the work that you're doing on a daily basis?

Kris Johns:

Excellent question. Dr. Lewis. The mission critical piece there is just the learning how to learn. And I would really credit Dr. Monroe at U of M, Flint, in the political science department of really laying that foundation. Where I'm at now, I'm essentially kind of in my third know, having left U of M, Ann Arbor. My first job was in Akron, Ohio, at a large integrated health system and things just that was a case where my then girlfriend, who became my fiance, who is now my wife, was living here in Flint, and she said, I'm not moving to Ohio. Very wise choice in general. But it was a case where I got a couple of years experience. And so then I come back to Flint, and I have worked a number of different jobs in a number of different areas. But I think the key thing about graduate school is it really taught me how to learn and how to learn quickly, because at Michigan State, you had three classes a semester. At u of m it was five. And these were difficult classes. I mean, the 60 credits at U of M was probably really the toughest thing I've done academically, and it was very demanding. And as we move forward to 2023, I started a new job with a social marketing firm, and part of that was getting the certification. So you had a week to get five or six different certifications, and you had to learn quickly. And where we're at now is a case where information in so many places is free. You can probably get the equivalent of a BA or even a master's degree on YouTube. It's just how do you apply it and are you willing to learn? And I think that's really the mission critical piece is that you just need to be open to learning and just embrace the journey and know that you don't know what tomorrow will bring. And my advice, just to take one step back, Doctor, is when I was at Michigan State, so I graduated from U of M Flint debt free. I had a chance to live at home. I also worked I was a dishwasher. I was a professional dishwasher for three years, and I got scholarships, and I was able to leave U of M Flint debt free. Moving ahead to Michigan State. The first year I took out loans, but the second year I worked in the dorm. And it was not, I think, ideal, but you make the best of it. But part of that piece was you got free room and board, free tuition and a stipend. And it might have not been the ideal graduate school experience, but that second year was free. And then moving ahead to U of M Ann Arbor, I ended up taking out loans for the two years. And my encouragement to students and please is do not focus on the brand. I can tell you on one hand, the number of times people mentioned that I went to U of M Ann Arbor for this degree. One was I was at Genesis, and they gave me no money towards my degree. I mean, other than a paycheck, but I was paying student loans. I would highly encourage, if you're wanting to do a graduate degree, please look out about graduate assistantships. There's a host across the board is look at cost that oftentimes, whether it be I applied to Cornell for my first degree for labor relations was not accepted. I don't know if I would have went to Cornell that would have made life any different. But I just ask people, please do not bury yourself in tens and tens of thousands of dollars of debt to get a brand name, just to be able to wear the sweater, go to a place that's affordable. Take your time. If your employer can pay for it, please do not be in a rush. And then secondly, I would also highly encourage if you can find places that will give you a graduate assistantship and seek those out. And oftentimes for me, I worked in the dorm. I made it a wonderful experience. And what I just don't want people to do is that you get your dream degree, and then now you have a lifetime of obligation to pay it back. Because I will say that I think the master's degrees were more of a personal thing. I probably could have done a lot of what I'm doing, maybe not some of the healthcare stuff, but what I'm doing today without a master's degree, it's just nice to have, and I'm very proud of it. But what I thought I knew at 21, 23, 25 is a lot different than I am now 42. And for young people who get very status focused about, well, if I go to this school, it'll help me do this, it's not at the end of the day, people are buying you. Your brand is your personality. It's your background. It's who you are. The one thing I tell people, and this would be quick, is you either can be an and person or a but Dr. Lewis is a great guy, and I want him on my team. And then there's people like, Chris is nice, but he's annoying. And I've had people tell me that. I mean, not every job has been super successful because it's just a fit. And I think it's one of those things where I've gotten jobs because of who I was, not necessarily because, oh, Chris went to U of M, Ann Arbor. Check. He's got the job. And then I've lost jobs because of personality, because of fit, and it had nothing to do with the degree. And so I would say, just to close, my three takeaways are, please don't bury yourself in a mountain of debt over a degree. It's very important to you. But for many other people, it's a credential. And do they have a master's degree? Yes. Very rarely. Where they got that master degree, will it make a big difference on the employment side? Alumni networks matter. Number two, we're all in a relationship business. There's been a number of things where I met somebody on a Monday and then got a phone call on a Friday because I had a skill set that could help them. And that kind of leads, I think, into the 2.1 is be a helpful person. Know your niche in the food chain until you're the boss. Be a helpful person because the boss needs help. And I think the one side is that get the master's degree, learn, but extend your skills and be a helpful person, and that will open up so many doors. And then lastly, just get the experience, the internships. And again, it does not need to be the full official three credit. I don't even know how many hours it is now for an undergrad at U of M Flint, but even if it's a five hour internship, or it could even just be. Meeting people make those connections because those will last for both your graduate school application, but it'll last for your career.

Christopher Lewis:

As you think back now after going through these graduate degrees, and you think back to that younger self that went through those, and you've given a lot of pieces of advice today. But I guess as you think back, is there any advice that you would have hoped that someone would have given you that would have helped you to find success in that journey that you went on?

Kris Johns:

Wonderful question, Dr. Lewis. I think what I would have tell what 42 year old Chris would tell 21 year old Chris is to slow down is that the clock is not your enemy. And when you get to our level, does it matter if you retire at 67 or 68? It doesn't. I think for myself, in a perfect world, what would have been helpful is I would have loved to have done like, a maricor just to get experience, just to get my degree, even if it was maybe a gap year, taking a semester off to do something. In hindsight, I would have loved to maybe done the Disney program where you go to Disney for a semester or even go out west. So I think the key piece there is just taking it slow and getting experiences and not being in a rush to graduate and allowing yourself to have those opportunities that students get to have, whether it be in AmeriCorps or doing a fellowship for a year. I think that would have been really very helpful just to mature as a young person and then give myself more experiences and just a different perspective.

Christopher Lewis:

So true. And I think a lot of times people at that age are moving really fast and they want to make money or they want to move faster, or people are telling them that they need to jump into that career, and sometimes slowing down is the best policy. So I appreciate you sharing that. Is there any other piece of advice that you'd want to give to anyone that's going to graduate school that would help them in this journey that they're on?

Kris Johns:

Yes. Start preparing for the GRE. Math was not my strong suit. I did very well in the verbal. But we didn't have Khan Academy back then. We actually had to buy a book. We had to go to what there was a store called Borders, which is gone. I went to Borders and I bought a GRE prep book, and I slaved over that book for months. And again, I think the other side, too, is I think there's just we can kind of question about just innate IQ, but I probably could have gone to a number of prep courses, and I don't know how better my score would have been. So I also would encourage people, please take those prep tests early. And I took the LSAT. I did not do very well at all. Take the prep test, see where you're at. And if there are certain areas that you excel in, then press on those strengths. But if there's areas where you struggle, work on that. And then again, we didn't have Khan Academy in 2001. And so use those free resources, use what's available and put the time in because the GRE test is what it is. I mean, it's not going to change now until in the next ten years. And learn the test and be prepared. Nothing should be a surprise in terms of what the career is. You should know by talking to people the test, you should be able to better understand how that test is set up and what your strengths and weaknesses are and what you can do to improve. And I think put that time in because and again, graduate school is a signal to employers that you are serious. And I just want you to be serious about being serious. And I think that will really help you out. Because I would say this without my internships, I wouldn't have gotten into Michigan State because there's really nothing on my scholastic resume that would have indicated I would have been a good fit. There was people with much better grades, much better GRE scores. But because I had those internships and just please be serious about your experience. That's really the mission critical thing. And then get ready for the test because those test scores are real and a good test score can help you get a scholarship.

Christopher Lewis:

Well, Kris, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for being here today. Thank you for sharing your journey and for sharing the things that you learned along the way that were both positive and negative. Because when you go through these experiences, it's important to share both. And I wish you all the best.

Kris Johns:

Thank you.

Welcome to another episode of Victors in Grad School! In this episode, host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Derek Howard, a successful attorney and past adjunct professor, to discuss his journey through graduate school. Derek shares his experiences starting with his undergraduate degree in political science at the University of Michigan Flint and his decision to pursue a Juris Doctorate at Western Michigan University Cooley Law School. He reflects on the factors that influenced his decision to go to graduate school and how his experiences during an internship solidified his passion for law. Join us as Derek discusses his choice of law school and the challenges he faced as a working student. Don't miss this valuable conversation about finding success in graduate school!

This podcast is brought to you by The Office of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan-Flint. If you're still wondering about other things to consider when it comes to graduate school, you can also contact the Office of Graduate Programs at UM-Flint. We're here to answer questions Monday – Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. EST. You can also find out more about the 50+ programs that the university has to offer here.

 

Transcript

Christopher Lewis:

Welcome to the Victors in Grad School podcast, where we have conversations with students, alumni and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in grad school. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And every week we have an opportunity to sit down and talk about this journey that you're on. You might be in graduate school already, or you may just be having that inkling in your head that you're thinking about continuing your education maybe in a similar path or maybe in a direction where you want to go in a different path from your undergraduate work, or a completely different direction than that either. Or maybe it's just a completely different direction, and you're really just exploring. The great thing is that you're here, you're listening, and you're willing to be here to learn because this podcast is all about helping you to find success in that graduate school journey. Every week I have a great opportunity to be able to sit down with other people that have done this before you and they are sharing their own experiences and their own successes. And you never know, maybe some failures along the way as well. This is all being done to help you to not make the same mistakes or maybe to make some of the same mistakes so that you can learn as well as you go through the process. Today we've got another great guest with us. Derek Howard is with us today. Dor McWilliams howard PLLC. He's also a past adjunct professor at Western Michigan University Cooley Law School, as well as a number of other legal opportunities that he took advantage of for many years now. He started his education at the University of Michigan Flint where he studied political science for his bachelor's degree. And then he went on from there and got his Jurisdictorate degree or his law degree from Western Michigan University Cooley Law School. I'm really excited to have him here today and for having him share his own experiences with you. Derek, thanks so much for being here today.

Derek Howard:

Thank you for having me, Dr. Lewis. I appreciate it.

Christopher Lewis:

My pleasure having you here today and really to be able to learn from your experiences. I guess first and foremost, let's turn the clock back a little bit. I mentioned the fact that you attended University of Michigan Flint for your undergraduate work and you decided to getting a political science degree. So talk to me about the fact that at some point during that undergraduate experience you had some inkling in your life that you wanted to continue on, you wanted to go on, you wanted to end up in law school. But what were the reasons that made you really decide that you wanted to go to graduate school?

Derek Howard:

Well, when I was coming out of high school, I believed I wanted to be a lawyer. Now, that changes. Students coming out of high school obviously change their minds sometimes, and so that changed over time. But immediately out of high school I wanted to be a lawyer. And when I looked into the programs and was accepted to U of M. Flint, the obvious path was the political science program. So I entered the political science program straight out of high school, and I did that for a couple of years. And then I actually took a break, actually stopped going to school. I don't know exactly what it was, but for me, I apparently wasn't into it. And it might have had to do with I just didn't know how to study or how to be successful in education at that time. I didn't have anybody helping me with that, I guess. So I took some time off. I actually ended up taking five years off. And after about five years off, I was at this job and I managed a retail business. And I was very young. And I always kind of advanced through whatever business or whatever jobs I had at that time. And so I was a manager and I was one of the youngest managers. It was a multiple presence business, and they brought all the managers down for a meeting to drum up sales and all this. And I looked around the room and there were people, a bunch of people 30 years older than me. And I'm like, I don't want to be here in 30 years. And so that moment changed. I'm like, I'm going back to school. I don't care what it takes, I'm going back to school. I went back to school. I re enrolled at University of Michigan Flint. And what's interesting is the classes that I took that I struggled in in those first two years, I would get A's in I don't know if I matured. I knew how to study and what was effective for me in learning material, but I did very well from that point forward. I went straight through and got my undergrad. There was a moment in my undergrad where I thought, well, I don't know what direction I want to go, especially later in my undergrad. I really enjoyed sociology courses that I took as a part of my undergraduate degree. And so I thought I might go for a PhD in sociology for a time. And I was really struggling in those last couple of semesters and choosing between I knew I was going to do a graduate program. It was either going to be a PhD in sociology or it was going to be a jurist doctorate. And I just really didn't know. And the deciding factor on that came as an intern. There was an internship I had to do as a part of my undergraduate studies, and I did it at the court in Genesee County Circuit Court, right down the road from U of M Flint. And I was in a courtroom and I was around lawyers and I really enjoyed that so much. That's easy decision now I really enjoy this. I'm going to go to get a jurisdoctorate degree.

Christopher Lewis:

You did decide to end up going and getting that law degree. You just mentioned that you decided to attend Western Michigan University Cooley Law School. And there's a lot of options for law schools not only here in the state of Michigan, but beyond the state of Michigan and around the country and beyond. So talk to me about what was going through your head and what ultimately made you decide that Western Michigan University Cooley Law School was the right school for you.

Derek Howard:

So I got out of undergrad and I knew immediately I was going to go into law school. So you take the LSAT, that gets you the testing that lets you certain score to get in and you look at your grades. And I sent around and I actually applied to many law schools. When I was going to U of M Flint, I was living near the Rochester area and that commute was just a difficult commute. It was very practical. I had to work full time while I was going to school. And so not wanting to repeat the commute actually played a role in choosing it. At the time, Western Michigan Coolie Law School had a presence on Oakland University's campus and that was five minutes down the road and they were willing to give me a nice scholarship. And so even though I was accepted to multiple schools, that just tipped the balance for me. So I started on Oakland University's campus where their presence was and did that for a while and there was only a certain amount of credits that you could do on that campus before you had to finish your degree in Lansing. So we ultimately did finish in Lansing, but all of the students became close. I think our starting class that semester was 62 students I believe is the right number. And by the time we got kind of said, we're going to have to go to Lansing to finish up here, we become good friends and commuting together made us even better friends. So we'd share driving responsibilities and go back and forth. And so I really enjoyed that time and the closeness with the groups especially that I commuted with, are still lifelong friends. And so that was the reason for cooley law school. They gave me nice scholarships. They were five minutes off the road when I started and I was a working student. I had to have a full time job while going to school for most of it. There were semesters that I took off that were very important semesters to really devote a bunch more time, but for the most part I was a working student.

Christopher Lewis:

So talk a little bit about that because working while going to graduate school, especially for a law degree is in itself really difficult. And then you have to add on all the other factors and life issues that you're dealing with in your life. So talk to me about balance and how you were able to balance all of that and still find success during that law school journey.

Derek Howard:

Well, like I said, there were moments or semesters that I found very important in my undergraduate studies. I was also a full time worker. With the exception of my final semester I had waited to do a bunch of classes that required me to be in Flint every day of the week rather than staggering two or three days a week. The same for law school there were semesters where it was just necessary that I kind of pulled back on the work. But I do remember my fourth semester of law school, I think it was. I had a full time job at the court that I ended up working at as a lawyer. I was on Law review which puts out a scholarly journal on a regular periodic basis on legal topics and that itself was like another part time job. On top of it. I was going to law school, which was a part time job and my first son was born so I had what amounted to like four jobs, it felt like which felt very daunting. And when I talk about it I look back at it I go, that was but when you're in it and you just kind of are in it it just becomes life is how I looked at it. And I just would do. And it's probably not something that's healthy to maintain for long stretches but I made it manageable for a few semesters that I had to do that. And you just prioritize the important things. Obviously, getting good grades is very important and being a good father is very important and making money so that I could afford the place I was living in was very important. So I don't know how I did it when I look back, to be honest. But it just becomes part of life and you just do the best you can. And sometimes that's what life becomes about is even though you're short on time in certain things, that you care enough to do as best you can in the amount of time that you have, and you just be efficient with your studies or you be efficient with what's necessary for the grades that you get or what's necessary for your job.

Christopher Lewis:

Talk to me also about that transition that you went through. The transition from going from being an undergraduate student to becoming a law school student. Because going to grad school itself is very different than going to law school is also very different in the way that you're educated and by the way that your professors are teaching you. So as you made that transition from the University of Michigan Flint to law school what did you have to do to set yourself up for success and what did you have to do to maintain that success? Throughout the entire law school journey, there.

Derek Howard:

Was definitely a different educational experience between my undergraduate studies and law school. So undergraduate studies for the most in my liberal arts degree was a reasoned paper or a researched paper and some kind of an exam at the end. I think the most of them, especially later in my bachelor's degree, ended up looking something like that. In law school. You come into it and you find success by you study a body of law and the body of law appears to be black and white. And it can be in the form of a rule, like a statute or a court rule or some kind of a code or it can be in the form of case law interpreting those things which becomes law in itself. And so what I found fairly early on was success in learning about law became success in learning about the theory behind the reasons that decisions were made in case law. Theory behind why a statute was codified. What was the public policy behind the statute. The reasons behind what you were reading was really the important part of learning to become a good lawyer or finding success in law school. And the material was nonstop. It's like that I Love Lucy episode with the chocolates coming down the conveyor belt. If you didn't stay on top of reading these cases and understanding the reasoning behind the decisions, you would dig yourself a hole that was virtually impossible to get out of. Especially if you were juggling that along with a career like I was, or a job that allowed me to go to school even though I had scholarships. It wasn't enough to not work. I simply had to work. I wasn't willing at the time to take out loans to cover living expenses. I needed to work. It was necessary. I had a family. And so law school is interesting in the sense that at the end of the day, they can't teach you everything, so they really teach you how to educate yourself. If a client comes to me today and says, hey, I have this issue and this is what happens. Clients are very good at saying what they experienced, what they think happened, the facts surrounding something, but they don't know the law, and if you've not dealt with it before, it always requires research. I don't know that I've ever had a client come to me. That's not necessarily fair, but often clients come to me and I don't know the exact answer to what they're looking for. But I was trained in law school to find out how to find that answer, to educate myself on that answer and be an expert at it so that I could bring a case and win a case, especially in litigation.

Christopher Lewis:

I think you're right in what you just said that in regards to the law, going to law school itself teaches you about ways to think about also ways to process things for yourself. Now, as you think back to that education, and now you are thinking about the work that you do on a daily basis, how do you feel that your graduate degree prepared you for the work that you do on a daily basis?

Derek Howard:

It literally taught me how to do my job. There's no more direct. Well, I don't know. I guess I don't have experience at medical degrees. I'm assuming I would be certain would do the same thing. But I don't know how you'd know how to find these answers because there's research tools and methods and just like technology changes, how you do it changes. When I went to school, there were electronic or cloud based research tools that you could use, but it was also going to the library and pulling books and understanding how to look at the pocket parts. Any lawyer is going to know what that means. These additions at the end of the book where case law changes, so they're literally journals of cases that come out of courts that have the ability to make case law and they're published. So certain courts have the ability to decide whether or not it's going to be law that everybody has to follow called case law, or it's going to be an unpublished law that would just be persuasive in certain circumstances if a court wanted to find it persuasive. So when a court overturns a prior case, everything changes. And you have to be able to know where to look to see if that happened. You have to be able to look to see how it's evolved over time. Because law evolves. It's living and breathing and new issues come up. You may have seen in the news recently some lawyers relying on Chat GPT to write a brief that created out of thin air cases that didn't exist. And they filed these in courts and they were actually sanctioned for it by the court. How do we deal with those issues and not just in law or in a courtroom setting? How do our clients deal with those issues and what's the legality behind those things? So because it's ever changing, if they just taught us like a foundational knowledge about the law, we would be stuck with what we knew when we graduated if we didn't have the ability to continue our education. I think it's kind of what I in part find fascinating about being a lawyer is that it's continuing education all the time. You have to stay on top of it and you have to something that I wrote about a particular area of the law five years ago isn't necessarily true today. That may have changed. And so that piece of law school that teaches you practically hands on, how do you go find the answers, how do you make sure that answer is still correct is absolutely necessary in my profession.

Christopher Lewis:

As you think back on your undergraduate experience and also yourself as an undergraduate, as well as the transition that you went through as you went from being an undergraduate into law school, is there anything that you wish that someone would have told you that would have helped you to find success sooner?

Derek Howard:

I don't know when I finished, because I talked about I had that break those first two years. I wish I would have had some words that when you go into educate and I later taught, and I later looked into educational theory a little bit, and what I learned is that everybody learns a little bit differently, and everybody has different techniques that may be effective for them to learn and retain information and to study. And what works for some people might not necessarily work for others. And that was something that I think I started learning in my later stint into my undergraduate studies. And I learned what worked for me. But it really was reinforced when I started teaching, because I would say the same thing, what I thought was the same thing, and I would have a couple of puzzled looks back in the back of the class, and I would have a couple people nodding their heads, and it's like, okay, some of you need can I hear this a different way? I remember one class, I was teaching a writing class, and I don't even remember what the topic was, but I said something, and I had a whole class looking at me with a puzzled look on their face. And so maybe that was me, but I actually drew it kind of I outlined it on the board, and I go this, and they all go, oh. And I go, oh, you're all visual learners or something like that. And the whole classroom started laughing. It's just that appreciation that I wish somebody would have told me early on, that how we teach you how to learn. It's one way, and it might be the way that's most effective for the largest number of people, which is probably the right way to look at it. But there are other ways, and you need to really find what works for you. You're the only one that's going to know that. But I think I kind of figured that out for myself later on. But early on, I wish somebody would have said kind of how we're showing you my not work for you. There might be a different way for you.

Christopher Lewis:

And as you think about the success you found in law school, are there any tips that you would offer to other students, whether they're going to law school or just going into graduate school for some other type of discipline that would help them find similar success?

Derek Howard:

Well, there's a few different types of classes in law school. If you're talking about substantive law classes, the foundation of the substance, like your contracts, your criminal law, your constitutional law, the property law, these foundational core concepts for those types of classes, it's important to understand the why. Why did the courts rule? That the way they ruled. Applying statutes understand the value in making good. There's this tool called analogies and distinctions. If a court decided this particular case this way, and the facts are the most compelling and interesting story of a case, so they'll start out with this factual, foundation part of an opinion, how did they apply the law to those set of facts? And then when you have your client and you're trying to make an argument, if you're doing argumentative writing, you say, well, my client had a similar circumstance, and if the court decided it this way, in a similar set of circumstances, then it also should follow that it would apply it this way now. Or the opposite distinction. No, the court applied this law this way in these set of facts, but we have a different set of facts learning analogy and distinction and theory. I talked about how when a client comes to me, I can't presume I know the law, but I do know the theory behind almost everything that my kind of law touches on a daily basis or could touch. So when a client comes to me, I can go and think in my head, well, I'd be surprised if it's not this, even if I don't know, because I understand the theory behind all of these different fingers of law and kind of combining different issues that pop up on a fairly consistent basis. So for foundational core type of law classes, that's important. For writing classes, it depends on what kind of writing you want to do, right? There's argumentative writing, and that's trying to convince somebody that you're right. And then there's legal drafting. I taught them both. Legal drafting is you're writing something like a contract, where you're not arguing for one side or another or you're writing a statute. You want to use certain tools in your writing that make sure that you come across with clarity and you use the right amount of vagueness and you avoid ambiguity and all these tools. So kind of depends on the type of class.

Christopher Lewis:

Eric, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for being here today and for sharing your own experiences. And I wish you all the best.

Derek Howard:

Thank you so much, Dr. Lewis. I appreciate it.

On this episode of Victors in Grad School, we have a special guest, Dr. Precios Armstrong. Dr. Armstrong is the special education supervisor for the Jackson County Intermediate School District and an adjunct professor for Grand Valley State University. Dr. Christopher Lewis, the director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint, is excited to have Dr. Armstrong share her journey with us.

In this episode, Dr. Armstrong shares her career path, which initially started with a desire to go to law school but eventually led her to a career in education. She talks about the importance of continuous learning and how pursuing multiple degrees, including a master's degree and an education specialist degree, has made her a better leader and servant leader. Dr. Armstrong also emphasizes the value of setting clear goals, sticking to a schedule, and building supportive networks for success in graduate education.

Dr. Lewis also shares his own educational journey, from a career in the nonprofit sector to becoming an educator. He discusses the importance of intentional choices, having a clear plan and timeline, and revisiting and aligning that plan with life circumstances. Dr. Lewis offers tips for successful graduate education, including brushing up on writing and research skills and pursuing one's passion within the program.

Throughout the episode, both guests emphasize the value of mentorship, collaboration with colleagues, and the impact of their degrees on their careers. They encourage listeners to celebrate achievements and strive for continuous growth. Whether you're a dad looking to support your daughter's educational pursuits or a dad looking to further your own education, this episode of Victors in Grad School is packed with valuable insights and advice.

This podcast is brought to you by The Office of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan-Flint. If you're still wondering about other things to consider when it comes to graduate school, you can also contact the Office of Graduate Programs at UM-Flint. We're here to answer questions Monday – Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. EST. You can also find out more about the 50+ programs that the university has to offer here.

TRANSCRIPTS

Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:

Welcome to the Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in grad school. I'm your host, dr. Christopher Lewis, director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. I'm really excited to have you back again this week. As always, I love being able to talk to you about the journey that you're on. You may already be in grad school, you may just be thinking about grad school, maybe you're toward the end of grad school, but you're still going through that process. And this show is all about helping you to be able to walk through that process, to be able to give you some tips, some hints, some things that will help you to find success as you go through graduate school. And we do that every week by talking to other people because we have an opportunity every week to talk to different people, to learn from their experiences, the highs, the lows, and everything in between about what they learned about their own about what they learned about themselves and their own journey as they went through their own graduate school path. This week, we got another great guest with us. Dr. Precious Armstrong is with us today. And Dr. Armstrong is the special education supervisor for the Jackson County Intermediate School District, but she's also an adjunct professor for Grand Valley State University. She's actually going to be starting a new course here very soon, and I'm really excited to be able to bring her to you, and I'm looking forward to talking with her today to learn from her own journey and having her share that with you. Dr. Armstrong, thanks so much for being here today.

Precios Armstrong [00:01:52]:

Thank you. I'm excited to have this conversation.

Christopher Lewis [00:01:55]:

It is my pleasure having you here today. And I guess for me, I know that you did a couple of different undergraduate degrees. You got both of your bachelor's degrees from Michigan State University. And at some point, after getting that first bachelor's degree, because there was a little bit of time in between, you made the choice that you wanted to continue and get a second bachelor's degree in leave behind Political Theory and Constitutional Democracy. And you went on and got a special education degree where you were able to then work with kids, with students, and then after that, you continued your education. So talk to me about what was going through your head as you were not only transitioning from one academic area to another bachelor's degree area, but then what made you make that choice that you wanted to go further beyond those bachelor's degrees themselves, to get then the master's and beyond that, the specialist and the doctorate degree.

Precios Armstrong [00:03:02]:

So I always knew I wanted to work with students, but when I was going through the first degree, the goal then was to really go to law school and be an advocate in the legal realm for students in that way. And so I did all sorts of things in undergrad to prepare towards going to law school. And then when I got done, I didn't want to go to law school. And so I went and got a job and went and worked for the state, worked for the Michigan Department of Civil Rights, transitioned from there, worked for Michigan Nonprofit Association. And it's neat how people are putting spaces in places with you at the points along your journey that you're supposed to encounter them. One of my colleagues at Michigan Nonprofit Association, she had gone to Notre Dame and got found out about a master's program there. And so I used that as a way to explore what my next step was going to be because I knew I wanted to get to teaching. And so going the route of exploring program offerings that were available at Notre Dame, I said, you know, this isn't exactly the right fit, so what makes more sense for me? And so going back to the drawing board, I started subbing. And when I was subbing, one of the principals pulled me aside and said, precious, I want you to go and sub in the special aid class. And I was like, I have no idea anything about special aid at all. She was like, that's fine. Try it out for two weeks. If you don't like it, you don't have to stay there. But if you like it, I think you do a good job. And I fell in love with it. And because I fell in love with it, I knew I had to go back to school. I was like, okay. So we've shipped gears. We are no longer going to law school, but we're absolutely going to become a teacher. And so I went back, and it made the most sense since my first bachelor's was from Michigan State, it made the most sense to go back as far as credits were concerned. And so I went back and absolutely loved getting that second bachelor's in special ed transition to working, being a fully employed teacher. And so while going through my first couple of years of teaching, I went ahead and finished up and did that master's degree. Because again, recognizing that in my journey, being a perpetual learner, that not only benefits me, but it benefits the populations that I serve. And so that's what got me to that space of going back and kind of will definitely shifting gears. I can say this, though. That first degree definitely, positively impacts the work that I do now, because in my current role, I have to understand policies. I have to understand the legality of things. And so those foundational pieces that I learned in that first degree have definitely carried me throughout.

Christopher Lewis [00:05:46]:

So you got those first couple of degrees at Michigan State University. Go green, go white. But then you made a decision to I'm going to say go to the other side, because I know people that attended Michigan State. They're not always fans of the maze in blue. But you came over to the University of Michigan Flint to get your specialist and then on to your doctorate degree. There were a couple of years that went in between. Those that went between getting that first Master's and then moving to the specialist made you choose to continue your education, and what made you choose to decide to attend the University of Michigan Flint for those degrees?

Precios Armstrong [00:06:29]:

So I always knew I wanted to ultimately become doctor. I knew that when I was in my first degree. However, after I finished my first graduate program, I said, I need a break, because at that point, I had been in school really most of my life. And so I said, I need a break. Let me see what it's like to not be a student and to work. And so I spent from 2005, when I finished the Master's, until 2016, I spent working. And I said, you know, let's do that. But then it's funny. One of my buddies that I met when I was working on my Master's, who was also a special Ed practitioner, she was like, okay, so you ready? We talked about in the Master's degree, about going ahead and getting the doctorate. Are you ready? And I was like, okay, I'm ready now. I can do this. And so the question was, where? And yes, it was an interesting decision to join U of M for that program, knowing I have spent all of my adult education prior to that with Michigan State. But it came down to even with my letter by my personal essay, I said, this Spartan wants to explore being a Wolverine as well. I will just be education divided. So that is how and when it came down to it, looking at the various different program offerings around the state, it made the most sense. U of M Flint Ed specialist was lights out, perfect for me. The format of it worked, the amount of time it was going to take work. It made sense. I was going to be able to not only advance certifications by adding the specialist central office certification, but also get the critical pieces I need within that curriculum realm. Because my Ed specialist, my concentration was curriculum instruction. And so it was a lot of pondering, but it made the most sense. And I had a fantastic experience with both the Ed specialist and the doctorate. I love how those marry each other. And that when I looked at U of M plant, the initial thought was, okay, so let's just go right into the doctorate. But you can't go into the doctorate unless you have the Ed specialist. So I said, Well, I can do that. I will absolutely do the Ed specialist and go on to the doctorate. I took a small break after the Ed specialist. But definitely it was an amazing experience with amazing people that I met in the cohorts that I was in people. As far as the professors were concerned. I always felt like I could talk to my professors. I always felt like the workload wasn't crazy. It was the rigor that you should expect in a program as advanced as an Ed specialist and a doctorate program. However, it wasn't one that felt like you were being beat down. I felt that at every point I could call a professor and say, okay.

Christopher Lewis [00:09:28]:

How did this go?

Precios Armstrong [00:09:29]:

Like, did this make sense? Was my writing clear? What can I do to be better? I always got great feedback, and really, I made the choice because I was old enough at that point in my journey and my maturation to be able to truly identify what I needed and what I wanted and how those converged and U of Influence program was the perfect fit for me.

Christopher Lewis [00:09:52]:

Now, through all of these different experiences, I can tell that you were motivated. You had the energy behind you. You had people, it sounds like, behind you to support you along the way, and you found success. As you look back at the experiences that you went through through those graduate degrees that you've received, and you think back to the transition that you had to go through with each of those different degrees, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain your success throughout all of those different degrees?

Precios Armstrong [00:10:25]:

I think every point I had to map it out, what did I need to do to get there and what was my end goal, and then celebrating each win. And so, especially with well, from bachelor's to doctorate, I always had a list of what are the classes I need to do, what is needed for each one of those classes, and then checking it off so I would literally lay out at the start of a program, okay, what all do I need to do? All right, so then what is the timeline by which I want to get it done? Knowing that the timeline has always got to be flexible because life happens, and then making sure that within having that really kind of tentative but mapped out idea, creating a schedule for each class. So I'm in the class, what do I need to do, and what amount of time do I need to dedicate? And really sticking with that schedule. If you have a really good schedule, then what I found is that you have blocked off that time. It's not a fly by night. This is my dedicated space so that when all the world goes crazy, I know I still have a schedule that I can rely upon to get to and making it one that if something goes wonky, that I couldn't dedicate that time to writing, couldn't dedicate that time to reading that day. I had time blocked off enough throughout my week that I could pick it up on another space, but it really was committing to a schedule of following through, but even more importantly, identifying like minded people to work with, both in the eds. Well, throughout my journey, I have been really afforded the opportunity to have almost a cohort model for the bachelor's program that was within James Madison college, which is a residential program at Michigan state. So you come in all first year students and you really build up your cohort and you follow with everybody through. I followed that with building a network. When I came back to work on the second bachelor's, with the masters and certainly with ed specialists, the folks in the ed specialists, we built groups within groups to say, okay, how are we doing? To the point of we even had a group meet that we formed. And then when I got to my doctorate, we created a dedicated study time every week that this is when we are going to study together, this is when we're going to write together. So building those networks, being clear about what my goals were, setting a consistent schedule for how I would complete that work, those were the critical components that got me through.

Christopher Lewis [00:12:55]:

You mentioned at the very beginning of your answer that you had to map things out and that you had to do that for each degree that you went through. Can you walk me through what you did to map that out that helped you to be successful in those different degrees?

Precios Armstrong [00:13:12]:

I really looked at what did I need to get done, what did that course, what did that major require for me to get done? And if there was wiggle room, making very intentional choices about what I was going to gain the most out of, and where did my strengths, what was going to help build upon my strengths? I giggle often that for the bachelor's, there's a point in that sequence. In the first bachelor's, there's a point in the sequence where you had to choose between a logic course or a stats course. And I said, I'm going to pick logic. Now, in hindsight, I learned that that was really probably the harder choice, but it was intentional in what is going to help me move forward in a way that makes sense for me. And at every point when I got to the ed specialist, it was you have a whole sequence. You had an orientation, they mapped out what the courses were, and so I said, okay, so this is what the map says. Am I committing to this time frame, how this cohort goes, or am I going to need to take it a little bit slower? For me, it made sense to go ahead and go through in each point. Here is what I want to knock out. I literally had a posting in front of my desk at home that had, all right, what semester are we taking that class? And once I was done, I check it off, put what my final grade was, and say, okay, I'm scheduling the next one, and went forward with that. When I got to the doctorate, it was much the same way. And that, again, had it all mapped out, checked them off as I went. But then when I came to being a doctoral candidate so you're in your phase of getting ready to write your dissertation. When I got to that phase, we mapped it out, like as a collective part of your defense, your proposal defense. You got to map out what your plan is. Well, we mapped it out and we stuck to it that this is what I need to get done and by when. And then again, relying upon that network at each point, all right, are we all doing this together? Here's what we're going to do. Knowing that everybody is not necessarily going to come along the same pace as you, because we all have our own journey. But even those who finish with you or those who don't, still supporting one another in getting through and relying upon it can't be just you. If you are just trying to go this alone, the road is so much harder. It is so important to build those networks, even if it is to just vent or share ideas to see does that make any sense? So that was what I did. It was very, write out what I need to get done, check it off as I go, and then making sure that I am revisiting that over and over again to make sure it makes sense and aligns with what was going on in my life at each step.

Christopher Lewis [00:15:54]:

You mentioned that your first bachelor's degree really helped you in the work that you do, especially in regard to advocacy work that you do, and also understanding policy and looking at policy in different ways and how you advocate for students. As you look at all of these different degrees that you've had that you've built your career upon and you look back at each of them, how do you feel that those graduate degrees helped you? How do you feel that those degrees prepared you for the work that you do on a daily basis?

Precios Armstrong [00:16:30]:

They prepared me amazingly well when I look at my master's degree. So much of what happens within schools is around behavior. And so being able to understand how we support behavior and what those best practices should look like and where those resources are has very much helped me as far as helping parents understand things, being collaborative with parents, collaborative and a source, and being a resource for teachers and principals, as well as having those conversations with students. And so that behavioral expertise that I gained there has been invaluable. Then you couple that with the Ed specialists where the focus was curriculum, instruction, being able to look at things from a 10,000 foot view and look at what that scope and sequence is how it is or is not. Meeting the needs of the populations that we serve has been invaluable as well, in and of itself, because I'm able to have those very intentional conversations from an educated standpoint of here's what we should expect to get out, and how do we evaluate what those outcomes are in comparison to what our expectations were. And so being able to really look with a broad lens of how we're utilizing curricular tools, how those align with the practices that are utilized, and being able to identify additional resources that are necessary has been phenomenal in being able to make sure that what we have for students and supporting parents makes the most sense. Then you couple that with my terminal degree and that opened up a whole other world for me of understanding research and understanding research to practice. And so I find that I am a much more, even more entrenched, evidence based, data based practitioner and coach. When I look at what my staff is doing, when I look at how I'm supporting families, I see that there is this other way of considering the information in ways that may be novel or they may be something that we typically use. But in either way, being able to look at it from a lens that says, okay, so can we prove that that works? Or are we just going from our gut because our gut is great, but is our gut supported by data? And so I found that all of those degrees have really helped me to be a better leader, a better servant leader, because there is a wealth of knowledge of both what can be done and how to reach out to resources and be open to the possibilities of other options that we may not have conceived of before.

Christopher Lewis [00:19:19]:

I think that with every degree that you go through, you take pieces of it and you fit them into the work that you do and they become a little more seamless as you go further into your career. So I appreciate you sharing all of that. Now, I mentioned you're going to be an adjunct professor coming up at Grand Valley State University. You're going to have your own graduate students that you are going to be working with, that you're going to be teaching, that you'll be mentoring, and they will look to you for guidance. I guess as you look back at your own graduate education, if you think about the students that you're going to be working with and you think about your own journey that you went on, what are some tips that you might offer to students that are considering graduate education that will help them to find success?

Precios Armstrong [00:20:09]:

One, the first tip was brush up on your writing and your research skills because if you haven't been in school lately. Those are the first things that make you question your existence, because definitely there is a different layer of expectation with your writing at the graduate level, let alone being able to really command what it is to do real research, that you are looking for peer reviewed articles. You are looking for well respected journals. Because I think because we have so much information at our fingertips, google is our friend, but Google is not our friend when we're doing actual research. And so those will be my two biggest tips, making sure that they're looking at those writings. If the writing is coming as more of a challenging piece, avail oneself of writing centers. Every college has them. U of M has a writing center. You can go and talk to the librarian. That was one of the great things I remember dr. Cheeram brought in. The librarian speak to us when we're working on the Ed specialist, just to kind of make sure that we understood the level of expectation and how to be successful. So those would be my biggest things. But the other layer would be identify what your passion is. Identify what your passion is and utilize the program to further that passion. So that my passion is culturally responsive teaching and practices. And that's why, ultimately, I did my dissertation on culturally responsive practices within special education classrooms. But in doing that dissertation, leading up to that, you can see that my writings within my Ed specialists were very much focused on my passion. So most of the assignments that were given, that was the lens I chose to utilize. And so that's the piece. As a grad student, this is an opportunity to learn and grow. I look at grad professors as your colleagues to help elevate the way in which you conceive of your world. How can you utilize more resources and become and expand your expertise? And so in doing so, looking for ways in which that expansion is going to positively impact. And so that made the work more relevant for me, because it wasn't work just to do the work. It was work that was going to translate into the practices of my everyday life.

Christopher Lewis [00:22:36]:

Well, Dr. Armstrong, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for being here today, for sharing your story, for showing that there are those pull strings that you have to follow, that you have to pull along with you, that you are going to be using along your path to help you along the journey that you're on, to make it to the endpoint in your career that you want. And also that it sometimes takes a little bit of time to figure out what that is and to see it. Because when you're in it, sometimes it's not always easy to see. It doesn't always make sense. But as you get further on, you definitely can look back and you can say, yeah, that's what it is. That's why I had to learn this. That's how I'm going to use this. But sometimes it does take a little bit of time. But I truly want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today and I wish you all the best.

Precios Armstrong [00:23:32]:

Thank you.

Christopher Lewis [00:23:33]:

The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education, whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice at umflint.edu.

 

On this episode of Victors in Grad School, our host Christopher Lewis welcomes a special guest, Jim Ananich, CEO of the Greater Flint Health Coalition and former Michigan State Senate Representative.

In this episode, Jim shares his experiences and discusses how his education played a role in his career. The conversation begins with Jim talking about his father, who was a faculty member at the University of Michigan in public administration and political science. Jim shares how he initially enjoyed school and learning but decided to make a career change and pursue teaching. Eventually, he developed an interest in administration and decided to pursue a career in that field.

Jim talks about how he learned about a grant program at U of M that trained urban and rural leaders to be principals, and he decided to join the program. This program not only covered some of the coursework costs but also made graduate school more appealing. Jim mentions that most of his cohort from the program are now administrators, retired, or still involved in administration. Before joining the program, Jim audited a class on community history at U of M Flint, which he found enjoyable due to the small class sizes. He appreciated that U of M made it easy for him to balance work and school, with flexible class schedules and the ability to do assignments outside of class.

The discussion then shifts to the benefits of graduate degrees in advancing careers and gaining a leg up in government positions. Jim explains that while graduate degrees are not always required for state jobs, they are often seen as an added benefit. The type of degree one pursues depends on their career goals, with specialization in a specific area making someone an expert in that field. However, having a general knowledge and being a good policy advisor may require a broader understanding of multiple area

Jim stressed the importance of finding the right balance between focusing on one's desired career path and being open to changing careers if necessary. He notes that there is a need for new professionals in the field as the workforce ages. Graduate degrees can prepare individuals for leadership positions and provide them with essential skills. Jim reflects on his own experience, mentioning that he initially studied educational administration but now wishes he had studied healthcare instead. However, he believes that the leadership and financial management skills he learned in educational administration are transferable to other fields, including healthcare. Additionally, his graduate degree in Public Administration focused on school finance, school law, and leadership, which proved to be useful when he got involved in budget decisions and school aid. Jim also discusses the benefits of U of M Flint's hybrid model, which allows for a combination of in-person and online learning. He found the flexibility and hybrid approach appealing, and the use of an online portal called Blackboard for classwork made it convenient.

The ability to balance attending City council meetings and coursework was made possible by the flexibility of the program. In conclusion, Jim shares his advice for individuals interested in a public administration degree or a career in the public sector. He encourages them to utilize the resources available to graduate students, such as professors and office hours, to be successful. He also highlights the value of scheduling courses according to one's ability and goals, and the importance of discussing plans with someone to ensure the right time for graduate school.

Join us on this episode of Victors in Grad School as we dive into Jim Ananich's personal journey and gain valuable insights into finding success in the field of public administration and politics.

This podcast is brought to you by The Office of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan-Flint. If you're still wondering about other things to consider when it comes to graduate school, you can also contact the Office of Graduate Programs at UM-Flint. We're here to answer questions Monday – Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. EST. You can also find out more about the 50+ programs that the university has to offer here.

TRANSCRIPT

Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:

Welcome to the Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]:

Welcome back to Victors in grad school. I'm your host, dr. Christopher Lewis, director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You and I every week get to go on a journey together. Then opportunity for us to be able to talk with one another, to be able to really delve a little bit deeper into what it takes to find success in graduate school. I know you may be at the very beginning just thinking about graduate school. You might be in graduate school still trying to figure things out, might be toward the end, trying to look at what's post grad school look like. But for all of you that are going through graduate school, there is definitely things that you can do to be able to be successful. And every week I love being able to sit down and talk to you about this, bring you guests that are able to tell their stories and be able to share their experiences because every person's experience is a little bit different. But the things that you can do while you go through grad school, you can learn from every person, no matter if they go to med school, law school, public administration school, physical therapy school, whatever it may be, you can take things out of everyone's journey and learn from them. And that's what this show is all about. This week. We've got another great guest with us, Jim Anna. Nick is with us today. And Jim is the chief executive officer for the Greater Flint Health Coalition. He's also a past Michigan State Senate Representative, and we're going to be talking about some of those experiences and how he got into some of those experiences and how his education helped him in those experiences. But I'm really just excited to be able to talk to him in general and be able to have him share his story with you. Jim, thanks so much for being here today.

Jim Ananich [00:01:54]:

Thanks very much for having me.

Christopher Lewis [00:01:55]:

It is my pleasure. I love being able to talk to people about their stories, and I think what I'd love to do is I'd like to go back in time. I know you did your undergraduate work back at Michigan State University. And at some point during that time in undergrad in those first experiences that you had working as a teacher, you had to have gone through some point in time where you said, I need to go back to graduate school or I want to go back to graduate school. What were some of the reasons that were going through your head that made you choose to go to graduate school?

Jim Ananich [00:02:28]:

That's a great question. And my dad was on faculty at U of M in the public administration and did some political science work. He was adjunct professor. So I spent a lot of time around U of M and I knew that when I liked school, I enjoyed learning and when I was home so I lived in DC. And then my dad passed and I moved home and I made a little bit of a career change and went from staffing in politics. I worked for my congressman and I just wanted to do something different. Went back to school for teaching and kind of decided as I was teaching, even when I was going to classes, that I thought maybe administration may be something I would want to do long term, maybe being principal or something in that range. So I started looking and then a good friend of mine, his mom told me about a program that she saw available where they were trying to train urban and rural leaders to be principals and that U of M had been awarded some resources to start a grant program to have some of the coursework paid for. So I was able to join the urban and rural can't remember the name exactly, but it made graduate school even more appealing because I had some of the cost covered. And looking back, almost the entire cohort are administrators right now. So it worked, there's no question about it. I mean, they're either retired or still doing some level of administration. So it was a great path for me. It made a lot of sense. And right before I did that, I took U of M Flint, public Administration Professor allowed me to audit a class on community history that I just thought was fun. And I sat in a class and I small class sizes, very intimate setting. And I'm thinking, well, this is how it's going to be. This makes it a heck of a lot easier because I was working and I knew I couldn't just leave work and go back to school like I did for undergrad do it around my schedule. So U of M has made it very easy.

Christopher Lewis [00:04:12]:

Well, I think you answered my second question, which I typically ask, why you chose U of M Flint. But you kind of made some comments there that I think you kind of said the small class size, the fact that your father was a faculty member there, you knew the school, you were back in the community and you're kind of living and working in the same area. I guess what I'd love to ask instead is talking about the fact that you were working and going to school at the same time and balancing life. So talk to me about balance and what you had to do to find balance in being able to be the full time employee, the part time student, and be able to be successful in that.

Jim Ananich [00:04:50]:

Yeah, I mean, that was one of the things that was so appealing about U of M. I mean, for me it was very close. I live in Flint. It's relatively common now but U of M flint was a little bit on the cutting edge of like offering a hybrid model for obviously we didn't do zooms and things like that back then and I am sure if zoom was a company yet, but we did Blackboard, which was an online portal that allowed us to do a lot of our classwork that way encouraged us to work together, and then we'd have really flexible class schedules. So I remember one, there was a professor on staff, he was a school law school finance professor and he was from Ohio. So he would drive up for the weekend. So we have these weekend courses which for some people that's not appealing, but for someone who's working, spend a few hours on a Saturday or Friday night, I mean, it's hard to beat. And then he would also do these hybrid model and it was really flexible. Plus instead of having you had to have it in by Tuesday at X O'clock, you'd have to be in class. We'd have this giving assignment and you'd have time to do it. So if you had time on Monday night to do it, you weren't required to do it in class. It helped that way too, so you could kind of set it around when you knew you had some flexibility. So I was also on City council at the time, so I had for part of the time I was in the cohort, so I was balancing that as well. So like on Mondays and Wednesday nights it was tough for me. So I would schedule my time around the cohort and when I had time to make sure I got the coursework done and I did very well. So it worked. But that flexibility, that differences of time for classes and the hybrid model worked really well for me. Some people have to be in class or it doesn't work for them. Some people want all virtual. Back then, that was a pretty new idea to do it the way they did it.

Christopher Lewis [00:06:22]:

There was a few years between the time in which you got your bachelor's degree at Michigan State University and then when you started in your master's degree in Public Administration at the University of Michigan Flint. You said you went to DC, you staffed, you got that experience, and then moved back to the Flint area. And I guess as you made that transition into graduate school, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success and what did you have to do to maintain your success throughout that graduate school journey that might have been different than what you had to do during your undergraduate years?

Jim Ananich [00:07:00]:

Yeah, no question about it. It was a little intimidating at first to apply because it's been so long since I've been in school. I wasn't sure if it was like riding a bike or not. Like if you pick it right back up again, or if it would be, it's graduate school. So I didn't know the level of which from a difficulty standpoint. So once I got in and the school was very helpful, they worked with you, kind of professors were easy to talk to. It made the transition pretty good and pretty seamless, so that helped. And then I just had to find a way to schedule said before an undergrad. I did that full time. And for a graduate school, I think sometimes they tell you if you want to get something done, ask a busy person. So sometimes being more busy helped me because I really did have to focus and I wanted to do well. And some people that did the Cohort never missed a class, always stuck with it. There were some that kind of would come and go. I think I had to take off one semester where I couldn't take the full load and caught back up later. But like I said, they were very open to that and that made a lot easier. It felt like they were on your side. It felt like U of M was on your side versus like, you're just there as a you know, as a number. And that was the minute. It's so appealing. It's like they genuinely wanted to see if they could resolve your problem versus just telling you you had to do something. You have to follow these rules, and sometimes they can seem arbitrary. At U of M it was, okay, how do we make you successful? And that was really very appealing.

Christopher Lewis [00:08:17]:

After you finished your degree, you continued, you got some more experience in public service. You were on the Flint City Council and serving the citizens of Flint. And then a few years after that experience, you ran for state representative. Talk to me about the degree itself, what you learned during that degree, what you learned in your experiences in serving the people of Flint that you were able to take from the degree, your experiences that allowed for you to be successful in being a state senator.

Jim Ananich [00:08:55]:

Yeah, I mean, I think probably even more so than the undergraduate degree, which obviously was important to me as well. But the graduate degree was a lot more practical. It was very specific to schools. But school finance, school law, a lot of these other courses on leadership, those things actually helped me when I got to Lansing. Often you feel like you get your undergraduate degree and you stretch yourself out all these things and maybe you never use it again, or you don't feel like you're using it again. That was definitely not the case with the graduate degree, because when you get to Lansing, I got put on Appropriations, so I'm deciding the budget. School finance was extremely important at the time because at the time they made a huge cut to education, but they were trying to act like it was a small cut and it was easy to explain to folks, well, let me tell you what this is actually going to do to schools. And we were able to stymie some of it because of that. But also it was because I had a knowledge in specifics of how schools are financed that I was able to uniquely have an understanding better than most or better than almost everybody in my first year, which is unusual. It takes a while to learn massive budget like the state and how it works and parts of the budget I didn't have as well of an understanding of. But schools I had pretty early and I was on the school aid budget. So it really did work itself out pretty well that way. A lot of rules around schools were changed in the last decade. One of the main reasons, in my opinion, why we've had such an excess of people leaving teaching and it's ironic that they want to go back and oh, we need to lure people, we need to incentivize people to go to come to schools to be teachers again. And it's like, well, all the things we did the last decade is why they left. But that's neither here nor there. But it does matter to learn history. It doesn't matter to learn that policy does make a difference. And I learned that at U of M. I learned that there's reasons for the policies in place that they are. There are policies you can put in place to attract teachers and bring some of the best. There are some things you can do to save money that will have an effect in the long run on people leaving the field. So I was able to speak about it from a I could kind of project what was going to happen and I was right, unfortunately. I wish I would have wrong and that the bad things didn't happen, but they did, or they would have listened to me on the front end. But it was a very practical graduate degree for my teaching, but it also ended up being very helpful for my service and legislature too.

Christopher Lewis [00:11:00]:

For people that are thinking of doing a public administration degree or they're thinking of some type of work in the public sector in regard to public service or working in state government, I'm sure that you've seen the highs and lows of working in those type of fields. What kind of advice do you have for people that may be thinking about it, looking at a public administration degree and saying I'd like to work in that type of work in the future? What type of advice would you give to those individuals that would help them to be able to be successful in being able to work in that field and be, let's just say successful in the politics of working in that field?

Jim Ananich [00:11:37]:

Sure, we're talking about graduate schools, so obviously, potentially they would have gotten started after their bachelor's degree, they would have got into the field. Maybe they're not at the point in the career where they want to be and they're trying to kind of go through the ranks. I definitely think a graduate degree, especially here at UV and Flint, could be very appealing and could be very helpful because often they're not requirements of state jobs, but they're definitely like there's the basic requirement and then there's the added benefit and it's almost always in that extra category. So it gives you a bit of a leg up in government. It doesn't seem like it because it's been bashed for so often, but there are a lot of experts, content area experts, and that people do rely on those folks. So it depends on which way you want to go. If you go on the executive branch, often you get put into like a civil service system where you're kind of working on a very narrow topic. You can move around, of course, but you have one very big responsibility. It's important and you kind of work on that and become an expert. Or if you're in the legislative side or on the policy side, in a department or in the governor's office, I think both the degrees help either direction you want to go because you get a firmer, a more concrete understanding of the policy. If you're on the legislative side or in the policy offices of the governor or the departments, if you're trying to narrow in on a specialty and really be the expert on something, it's also very helpful. Now it's different so you kind of got to decide which one you want to do. Do you want to be the expert on defos remediation or something to do with roads or an issue in schools? Because if you are, then you narrow into that focus as part of your graduate degree. If you want to just have a general knowledge and be a good policy advisor, you still probably need to pick an area, but you need to have a little bit broader knowledge of the entire area. Obviously people change their mind, they change their careers all the time. So it's not says you're stuck in one rut if you don't end up liking it. But obviously you should focus your attention at the time which way you want to go. But no, there's a lot of a need and much like a lot of fields, we have an aging workforce. So there's going to be folks that are you may look and say, well, there's two or three people ahead of me, but they may not be there for very long, right? You're starting to see people leave at larger numbers and all of a sudden you're in leadership position. At least in my experience, the courses I took, the degree, the degree I was able to get definitely would have prepared me and did prepare me for those opportunities.

Christopher Lewis [00:13:57]:

So you're now in a new position and you are working again serving the community, but you are the chief Executive Officer for the Greater Flint Health Coalition. Talk to me about how your degree helped you or is helping you now in the role that you're in.

Jim Ananich [00:14:16]:

Yeah, obviously if I'd have known this is where I was going to be now, I might have rethought the educational administration and maybe done healthcare. But a lot of those things are transferable, right? Because at the end of the day, you're learning leadership skills, you're learning how to manage, you're learning finances. And they're not that different, right. Once you learn a balance sheet and all the different things you have to learn in school finance, moving over to a nonprofit health care, it's not that much different. I mean, there are different sources. There's different places where we get a lot of money from center for Medicaid, Medicare, different contracts. It's definitely different than a school. But the leadership components don't change. So there's no question it helped me. I think one thing it did help it helped organize my mind in a way that from a leadership and management standpoint, where before that, I just didn't have that. I don't think I knew what was happening as we were doing it. But looking back, at least the curriculum and the MPA program, and I'm sure there's plenty of others that are just as good, the course work, it was very purposeful and you learned it in stages, at least with our cohort. I'm sure you could jump around if you wanted to, but the way that they laid it out, it gave us deep understanding of how schools were organized and both at the policy level and how you finance and also, of course, the implementation of school curriculum, things like that, that helps really structure your brain in a way. Like the things matter and there are steps to the process. Obviously the steps are different here, but the structure helped me to transition relatively easily.

Christopher Lewis [00:15:51]:

As you look back at your graduate education, you think back to the transition in that we talked about and through that we talked about. As you think back to that, what are some tips that you might offer to others that are considering graduate education that would help them to also find success in that graduate school journey?

Jim Ananich [00:16:11]:

When you make a decision to go to graduate school, one, I think I would encourage people to do it, one starting off there, but make sure it's the right time. And sometimes with life, I mean, there is no perfect time, right? If you're looking for the perfect time to do something, you're probably never going to do it because life's busy. But there are times when it's a little bit easier to do it right. Not always the perfect time, but when it's a little bit easier in your life. So I would suggest, as you're considering it, the good thing about u of M at least, is you can go talk to somebody and have that conversation about, this is what I'm thinking, and you walk it through, walk the steps through with somebody. Bigger institutions may be tougher to do that. I can't tell me at U of M, but I would encourage that. And that's the nice thing is places like U of M, and in particular, this isn't like, let's see if we can sucker tuition out of you. We want you to be successful. There's no point in doing it if you're not going to be. So come have a conversation about like, this is what I'm thinking, this is what I want to do. Here's my career path. Does this make sense for me? And the beautiful thing is people in the departments, the people in the sort of administrative offices are very helpful in those kind of conversations. So I would encourage those. Some people are kind of hesitant. I don't want to bother anybody. Well, that's exactly what they're there for, right? That's what they want to do. So have those conversations, and then when you're in, just make sure you schedule courses around, because there's so much flexibility now in a way that makes sure you're successful. If you can't handle three courses in a semester, then don't take three courses. I had to do that a couple of times as I was trying to catch back up because I missed a semester master where I had to cut back. But I was very successful when I did two. I could handle two. If I hit one, I could knock it out the park, but it would just take forever to get it done. And it's really a question of like, what do you want the end goal to be? Is it are you going to get a PhD and want to work in a university? Then you probably got to be a little faster, a little more intentional about it. If it's just for knowledge and getting better at your current job and not a requirement, take as much time as you want. If it's for principals, it's very helpful to have an educational administration background, whether it's an MPA or even a specialist, or of course, a doctorate. If you want to be a superintendent, I mean, you can do that as a principal. You don't need it. That's kind of depends on where you want to go. But I think the master's degree is very helpful as far as getting in the door and getting the interview. My father in law, his undergraduate U of M and did Eastern for his Ed doctorate because the U of M didn't have it at the time. And I know his getting that Ed doctorate helped him. He was Superintendent Grand blank. Almost all the superintendents. Now, not all of them, but many of them are at least have had specialist degrees. So it kind of depends on which way you want to go talk. I've never done college administration, but I know some folks that have and are doing that, and it seems to have that level of education definitely helps. So really, it's kind of you don't have to have your life plotted out, but the nice thing about graduate school is undergraduate. People expect you to kind of move around a little bit more. In graduate school, it is, by nature, more focused, so you want to make sure you pick the right one and then just have a realistic timeline to get it done. Professors were very helpful. The office hours were real, and you could have conversations also. You could communicate with them outside of that, like, if you're having problems. So everyone wants you to be successful and the tools that are available should be used. I'll say that. And then once it got out, I used my master's in a lot of ways to help get me in the door, and then the skills I learned from it helped me to be successful. So there's no question in my mind. I mean, I'm very happy I did it. I didn't need to as a teacher at the time. Of course, the pay scale was based on years of service and education, so it did help me. There's no question I got paid more. I didn't end up going into school administration, but obviously the funding of it, the policy of it, was happening all the time when I was in Lansing, so it was definitely valuable for me.

Christopher Lewis [00:19:41]:

Jim, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for sharing what you have gone through, and for helping others to be able to think about this in a different way and be able to think about ways in which they can make that transition as well. And I wish you all the best.

Jim Ananich [00:19:58]:

Thank you. I really appreciate it. It was a lot of fun.

Christopher Lewis [00:19:59]:

The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education, whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at Flintgrad office at Umflint.edu.

Graduate school is more than just the next step in your academic journey—it's a transformational experience that brings both challenges and opportunities. In this week's episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, host Dr. Christopher Lewis welcomes Joslynn Walsh, a first-year student in the Physician Assistant (PA) program at the University of Michigan-Flint, to share her real-world insights on what it truly takes to thrive as a graduate student.

From the outset, Joslynn Walsh recounts her unique introduction to the PA profession during her online freshman year, amid the restrictions of the Covid-19 pandemic. She highlights how proactive research, virtual events, and community panels shaped her decision to pursue a career as a Physician Assistant. Joslynn's experience resonates with anyone who's had to adapt and find clarity in uncertain times.

A key theme running through Joslynn's story is the value of community. She chose UM-Flint's PA program not just for its convenient location, but for its deep connections with the Flint community. Opportunities for service learning—like volunteering at local organizations and engaging with outreach programs—set this program apart, allowing students to make a real difference while preparing for their careers. As Joslynn notes, "It's important to be present in your community, not just talk the talk, but walk the walk."

Transitioning from undergraduate to graduate school isn't without its challenges. Joslynn openly discusses her own hurdles, from buying a home to adjusting to her husband's military commitments—all while starting a rigorous academic program. Her biggest takeaway? The importance of flexibility. Graduate school, especially in the medical field, demands adaptability, perseverance, and a willingness to embrace the unexpected.

Impostor syndrome is another reality addressed on the podcast. For Joslynn, early experiences in simulated patient encounters and urgent care settings helped her overcome self-doubt and step confidently into her role. She emphasizes that such experiences help students get comfortable with the uncomfortable—an essential skill for any future medical provider.

Finally, Joslynn offers sage advice to those considering graduate school: do your research, connect with professionals in your field, and strive for a healthy work-life balance. Above all, she reminds us that success isn't just about academic achievement—it's about caring for yourself and your community.

Want to hear more about the journey, the challenges, and the victories? Listen to this episode of "Victors in Grad School" and be inspired to make your own mark in graduate school and beyond.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]:
Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, you and I are on a journey together. We have this opportunity every week to talk, to be able to help you in finding that success that you want and in this journey that you're on. And it is a journey because each person goes through a different process that you have to go through to be able to figure out for yourself what do you have to do to be able to not only apply, get accepted, but then once you transition into a graduate school, what do you have to do to be successful? And every week, I love being able to introduce you to different people with different experiences that can give you some perspective on that and what they've learned from along the way. And today we got another great guest.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:01]:
Joslynn Walsh is with us today. And Joslynn is a first year student in the physician assistant program at the University of Michigan, Flint. And I am really excited to be able to talk to her about her own journey and what she's learned thus far. And she's currently in the program, so she's still learning and it's definitely not something that is done. She's going to continue to learn.

Joslynn Walsh [00:01:24]:
So.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:24]:
So I'm really excited to introduce her to you and to have her on the show today. Joslynn, thanks so much for being here.

Joslynn Walsh [00:01:31]:
Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be able to chat.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:34]:
Well, I'm excited to have you here as well, to be able to learn from your experiences. And I know that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Flint, and at some point in you getting that undergraduate degree, you made a choice, you made a choice that you wanted to continue your education to become a physician assistant. Take me back to that point where you decided that that was the route and what was going through your head.

Joslynn Walsh [00:02:00]:
Well, it kind of was an idea that started maybe freshman year. My freshman year looked a little different than most because it was online due to Covid restrictions. So I would say that my freshman year was kind of unique and was very situational, obviously like one of a kind scenario. And unfortunately it kind of closed off a lot of options as far as being able to investigate campuses. So I just think I had to do a lot of research on my own and that included shadowing and trying to do internships, but those weren't available due to Covid. So there was a online event. It was not really a job career event, but I think it was geared more towards like pre med students. And we had a few guest speakers and community members come in to speak on health careers and health professions.

Joslynn Walsh [00:02:57]:
So there was nursing from local facilities. I think there was a few that came from Hurley and McLaren and they came to talk on what the nursing model is. And then there was a couple of nurse practitioners who had taken the extra step and we got to hear from both of those professions. And then there was an MD who I believe specialized in nephrology. So got to hear his experience going all the way through a doctoral program. And then there was a PA and it was really cool because it was like a panel. You got to hear the difference between each of the. And when somebody is making a decision on what to be, it's not only hard to come to the decision to pick medical, but what in the medical career.

Joslynn Walsh [00:03:43]:
So that educational panel was really where it all started.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:47]:
Now you decided to attend the University of Michigan Flint for your physician assistant program. And there's a number of different physician assistant programs, not only in the state of Michigan, but beyond that. So talk to me about that decision making process for yourself and what was going through your head as you were going through that and what made you ultimately decide to attend U of M Flint?

Joslynn Walsh [00:04:09]:
Probably the community. I do think the Flint community has a lot to offer. It's not just location and it's convenient access to where I live, but it's more than that. It's the farmer's market, it's the hospitals, it's the community service with like so many outreaches nearby. There's the Michigan Food bank. So close, I mean, you name it. There's so many facilities that are in need. And that's something that's always really appealed to me.

Joslynn Walsh [00:04:37]:
And our program specifically is fortunate enough to participate with a lot of these outreach facilities where our students are enrolled in giving back to the community. And not a lot of PA programs offer such an opportunity for service learning. Maybe they'll do like a cohort day. Well, they'll go do like a field trip and go spend XYZ hours sorting food together. And it's made two hour event. Our program does. So our students are participants in multiple programs in the community all year. And I think that's something that's important to me having been a volunteer advocate throughout high school and undergrad and continuing that community participant.

Joslynn Walsh [00:05:20]:
And I think it's so important as future medical providers to understand the community you're working in, understand your population, not just like their needs, but also to be present in the community yourself. So it's one thing to talk, but it's another thing to walk the walk. And I think as future medical providers, whether it's nursing or all the way up to an md, like, it's important to be present in your community. And I think our program does a fantastic job of reinforcing that and actually showing the effort that comes from that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:50]:
Well, I appreciate you sharing that. And I know that every student that goes through a process of getting accepted into a graduate program, as you enter into that graduate program, there is a process of transition, because the way that you're educated as an undergraduate student is very different than the way that you're being educated as a graduate student. So as you think about this transition that you've gone through over the last year, in stepping into the graduate program at the University of Michigan, Flint, you found success and you've been able to be successful. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success, and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the journey that you've been on thus far?

Joslynn Walsh [00:06:32]:
I definitely think it's hard to think about your successes without thinking about your trials and tribulations. So my program started January 2025. So not a quite full year yet, but almost there. And January. It was an interesting start date because I feel like most programs start in the fall and it's kind of all coordinated at the same time. But having that winter start date was already a little odd. And then I bought a house in January that was quite difficult. My timing was not my best.

Joslynn Walsh [00:07:00]:
I' but that's just how things go. I do think that it was a learning curve with the adjustment of responsibility. My husband serves in the Army National Guard, and he was currently on his officer training status during that time. So I didn't have my support system. So having the newfound, I guess, learning curve of graduate school life and making that adjustment, buying a house, not having that support system, he was floundering in January. It was hard to transition for me, particularly my experience, not to say that that's the experience my colleagues share. I do think it encouraged me to be flexible, which is so important as you navigate that transition time between undergraduate learning is being flexible. And I think that has been my biggest takeaway in not being able to control everything and being able to take that step back.

Joslynn Walsh [00:07:53]:
And which honestly saying that out loud because Is that not the perfect estimate in the medical field? Being able to be flexible when a thrown at you? It's unusual to being able to provide good patient care, being able to make decisions on the fly. I do think that it opened my eyes. I am ready for this. While it didn't feel like that maybe occurring during the experience, looking back on it, I'm very proud of myself for being able to persevere through those hard circumstances. But flexibility is just crucial in graduate school and making that transition as you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:28]:
Entered into a program that is rigorous. Because I know that the physicians assistant program is definitely rigorous. It challenges you in many different ways. And I know that a lot of students that would go through that type of situation may feel a sense of imposter syndrome or self doubt in regard to am I ready for this? Am I good enough? Am I good enough to be here? Talk to me about that. And did you have any point in the last year where that has crept in and how did you handle it?

Joslynn Walsh [00:08:57]:
So our program, I do think it's a standard that most doctoral programs and PA programs will conduct some, some type of standardized patient simulation, like a standardized patient experience where you have actors who are presented with some type of case and you act out your role, whether that is a PA or a nurse or whatever that position might look like. So I do think that that's pretty standard across all programs. So having that opportunity to it be no risk, you're it's an actor, it is a pretend situation. Getting that opportunity to make those mistakes with no risk is honestly the big opportunity to be able to watch those errors back and see how you would do it differently. But not only that, to actually put the white coat on and to be the one knocking on the door. And it's something so simple that you don't think about whether your experience prior to this was being a medical assistant, whether it was scribing in a doctor's office. We're not the ones coming in all dressed up, knocking on the door, making those introductions, those formal introductions, I'm here to see you today. And those minute things that you don't think about going into school definitely can invoke the imposter syndrome, I think.

Joslynn Walsh [00:10:12]:
And we get to practice those scenarios, we get to in real time pretend to be the provider. And right now I need to stop using the word pretend because in five short months that I'm going into clinical rotations and I might be the only provider they're seeing in real time. So I practice this almost every time I go to the simulated patient experience, but also our program on something I'm very passionate about and very excited that our PA program does is Clinical Emergence. And our students are participants in Urgent Cares and around the community, the Flint community, a few other local areas. And these Urgent Cares have preceptors who allow us to come in as students and to see patients under the supervision of the urgent care provider. So as a student, having not gone to clinicals yet, I think it's once or twice a month we have the opportunity to go to Urgent Cares and to see patients on our own and then go back in the room with our preceptor. And having those experiences, experiences early on, I think gives me that edge and being able to get over that imposter syndrome a little early on before I get to clinicals. And it's the real deal.

Joslynn Walsh [00:11:21]:
I continuously, every time I go, I'm wearing my white coat, I'm knocking on the door, I'm introducing myself as a student and that has helped me tremendously assume my position and assume my role and kind of get over that fear. But I think with any medical provider, it's always going to be there in the back of your head. It's always going to be there saying, oh man, this is an emergency situation, I need to go get help. Nope, I am the help. They are here to see me. And you need to almost get over it. And it's blunt, it's hard, it's hard. But you are, you are their last line defense in sometimes, in some cases, sometimes.

Joslynn Walsh [00:11:55]:
We don't always have a huge medical team and a huge resourceful hospital. Sometimes you're the only provider in a rural medicine office and you are their doctor, for lack of a better term. So I'm very proud of my program for putting us in those positions early. Get over the awkwardness, get over the fear and be able to come out stronger. It's huge.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:16]:
You know, as you think about the transition that you went into graduate school, what you've learned thus far, and you think back to before you started, what's something you wish someone had told you before you started graduate school?

Joslynn Walsh [00:12:30]:
It's hard to think before this started, honestly, like, that's so cheesy, but honestly, this feels like it's gone on forever and I've only ever been in PA school. Was there ever a time before PA school? I don't know, I can't even think that far. But jokes aside, I, I do, I wish I had more opportunity to spend more hands on time with PAs, with COVID and some of those shadowing and turning restrictions, I didn't get to do that as much as I wanted. So I got to do some like over the phone, like interviews and questioning people who were already practicing, which was helpful. But it's totally different being in the clinic and seeing things hand on and in real time. And I wish I would have had that opportunity. To be honest, before my program timing was against me. I do feel like when I was applying and going through the process, but I think if I were to go on, I mean now I'm a cohort mentor.

Joslynn Walsh [00:13:22]:
So for the upcoming cohort of class of 2028, now we got assigned our mentees and being able to assume that position and being able to maybe instill some advice going on. I do think that having a work life balance is crucial. You can't be in your books 24 7. It's not healthy, it's not maintainable. You want to be a good student, you want to be able to pursue your endeavors and have those hobbies. But to balance it. And you need to find something that works for you, whether it's making a schedule or setting aside specific time for activities or for studying. Setting yourself up for success in that capacity of work life balance, whatever it looks like for you, is huge.

Joslynn Walsh [00:14:05]:
And I know a lot of speakers have touched on that in the past on the podcast. And it's not wrong and it must not be wrong because people keep encouraging it and reinforcing it. And it's very true. Grad students need to have a retreat, a form of self care, and you need to attend your studies. There's no way around it. There really isn't. You have to find something that is balanced and will get you where you need to be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:30]:
I know you just gave a piece of advice, but I want to leave one more opportunity that if you were thinking about a student that was thinking about graduate school, whether whether it be physician assistant or any other field, what's one piece of advice that you'd want to give to to every student?

Joslynn Walsh [00:14:49]:
I think if it's regardless of it being medical, regardless of the background, I would say I think it's important to consider whether or not it's necessary. And what I mean by that is I would talk to people who are already in the field and really get the nitty gritty because some people have been extremely successful in respective fields having no master's degree. So it looks different with every profession. So I do think it would be important to have those conversations with people who are already working, who have had successful careers in the career you are desiring because there's nothing more concrete evidence than people who are currently doing the job you want. So in understanding that fields and careers change over time, so maybe requirements that weren't needed 10 years ago maybe are needed now. Maybe there are recruitment officers who are seeing a huge change in degrees and maybe populations saying everybody who we've hired in the last year had a four year degree and went on to get a master's. And maybe the fact of the matter is that's what's needed now for that job. So I think it's one thing to look things up and try to do your own research and it's a whole other thing to talk to people who are currently doing that job.

Joslynn Walsh [00:16:06]:
So I know that sounds all very vague, but it's, it is sometimes vague. You need to hear it from the horse's mouth sometimes and know what you're getting into. So having those conversations with recruiters, going to job fairs is super important, especially if you are in more mathematics, a STEM field that's a field that's ever changing technology and advancement. So knowing what the most up to date information is super helpful. So I think talking to people who know what they're talking about is definitely helpful for sure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:38]:
Well, Joslyn, I just want to say thank you. I know that you are still working toward the light at the end of the tunnel. It's out there. You're going to be getting into your clinicals here very, very soon. I'm really looking forward to seeing and hearing more about the journey that you're on as you're going through this experience. But I really appreciate you sharing the journey thus far with all of us today. And I truly wish you all the best.

Joslynn Walsh [00:17:01]:
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:03]:
The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint Eduardo Graduate Programs to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

 

On this episode of Victors in Grad School, host Christopher Lewis sits down with Shelly McFarlane, a criminal defense attorney who shares her journey from undergraduate studies at the University of Michigan Flint to law school at Western Michigan University Cooley Law School. Throughout the episode, Shelley reflects on the importance of flexibility and finding the right fit in graduate school, the challenges she faced transitioning from work to school, and the preparation needed for success. She discusses the decision to attend Cooley Law School, highlighting the school's flexible scheduling options that allowed her to balance work and family responsibilities. Shelley also opens up about initially wanting to pursue a career in dentistry before discovering a passion for law, and how her background in premed has shaped her legal career. She emphasizes the significance of advocating for oneself, seeking help, and maintaining a balance between investing in oneself and taking risks. The episode delves into Shelley's fulfilling work of helping people who have made bad choices and the impact it has had on her and her family. Listeners gain valuable insights and tips for navigating the challenges of graduate education, defining success, and following their passions. Don't miss this inspiring conversation on Victors in Grad School.

This podcast is brought to you by The Office of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan-Flint. If you're still wondering about other things to consider when it comes to graduate school, you can also contact the Office of Graduate Programs at UM-Flint. We're here to answer questions Monday – Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. EST. You can also find out more about the 50+ programs that the university has to offer here.

This podcast is brought to you by The Office of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan-Flint. If you're still wondering about other things to consider when it comes to graduate school, you can also contact the Office of Graduate Programs at UM-Flint. We're here to answer questions Monday – Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. EST. You can also find out more about the 50+ programs that the university has to offer here.

TRANSCRIPT

Christopher Lewis

Welcome to the Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in grad school. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint.

Really excited to have you back again this week, as we do every week. I love being able to sit down with you, to talk to you, to work with you as you walk through this path that you are on, to be able to explore graduate school. Whether you are just starting to think about it or you're in graduate school yourself, there are things that you can do day in and day out to prepare yourself and to work toward finding success in the journey that you're on. And that's what this show is all about. I love being able to sit down and work with you every week and talk with you every week to bring people and ideas and thoughts and experiences to you that will help you to think about the journey that you are on because every person's journey is just a little bit different. But you can learn something from everyone's journey about what you can do to find that success for yourself and find that path for yourself that will lead you to the career goals that you have for yourself. I do that every week by bringing you someone new, someone to learn from.

This week we got another great guest. Shelley McFarland is with us and Shelley is a criminal defense attorney in Flint and she did her undergraduate work at the University of Michigan in Flint, but then went on from there and went to Western Michigan University cooley law school to get her graduate degree, her law degree to prepare herself for her legal career. Really excited to be able to have her here and to have her share some of her own experiences. Shelley, thanks so much for being here today.

Shelly McFarlane

Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.

Christopher Lewis

I love being able to have different people here to share those experiences. And I think what I would love to do is I want to turn the clock back in time because I know for every person there is a point in time where you identify for yourself the path that you want to be on. And I guess as you think back and you go back to that point, might have been an undergrad, might have been after undergrad, what were the reasons that you chose to go to graduate school?

Shelly McFarlane

Well, thank you. There were a lot of moving parts and variables that got me to where I am today. Originally when I started undergrad, I wanted to be a dental hygienist and I thought from there thought, well, what else can I do? I wanted to help people, that was my ultimate goal. And through dental hygiene I could have. But then I thought well, I can make more of an impact if I'm the dentist. I can help in that capacity. So I switched gears a little bit and started working towards a bachelor's degree at UVM Flint for pre dental. So I followed the premed program and I did biology, chemistry, communications, applied to dental school. I wanted to stay in Michigan, so I applied to University of Michigan and Detroit Mercy, and I did not get in. So I paused. I thought I did everything right. I did the pre dental club at UVM Flint. I volunteered. I worked at an office, and I couldn't figure out what else I needed, so I got frustrated a little bit. But I live by everything happens for a reason. And that path ultimately steered me towards law school. I worked as a chemist for a local company in Flint for a couple of years. And as I was there, I looked further into law school and decided to sit for the LSAT and applied to one school I went to, like you had mentioned, western Michigan Cooley Law School. And that was kind of the route I took. I have a different background than most law students. There were a couple of people that said, what a waste of an education to go from premed to law. And it actually is not. It's refreshing to not have the same background as every other attorney. A lot of the stuff that I use or learn for the premed route I use now when it comes to the chemical testing for blood alcohol, urine, all that stuff, I utilize, and it's different. I stand out from other defense attorneys because most don't have the premed background like I had. So I took a long, winding path to get here. But I truly believe I'm exactly where I am supposed to be. I'm helping people just like I wanted.

Christopher Lewis

I know you just were talking about the fact that you ended up at Western Michigan University Cooley Law School, and there's a number of law schools not only in Michigan, but across the nation. Talk to me about the reason that you chose to attend Western Michigan University Cooley Law School and what you were looking for in a law school that led you to choosing Western Michigan Cooley Law School.

Shelly McFarlane

So my decision to go to Cooley actually was based on where I was at the time that I decided I wanted to go to law school. I wasn't fresh out of undergrad. I had a couple of years had passed already where I was working, and I wanted to maintain my job. So I had spoke with my company and I said, I know I'm full time right now. I'm hoping that I could move down to part time so I could do both. I wanted to continue working while I was going to law school, and Cooley was the perfect fit. I was able to adjust my schedule for school whether I wanted to take morning, afternoon, night, weekend classes and continue to work in a career and also maintain my family. I was married and I had a stepson at the time. He was very young at the time, and I also knew that I wanted to have children of my own as well. So Cooley really fit perfectly into my needs and schedule, and it really was a perfect fit. I was able to continue working. Ultimately, I did end up leaving my job because I was fully invested in law school and convinced that I was going to continue. Part of the reason why I was hesitant was because I knew I wanted to take the leap. But it was such a big leap from already being in a career to basically switching fields. The premed, the chemistry biology portion, and then law school. They're very, very different forms of learning. And I knew I wanted to go to law school, but there was a part of me that was still scared to make that leap. I'm glad that I did. I was able to do it all, and I was able to continue to invest in myself to get to where I am today. But there was a piece of me that was reserved at the beginning, and I wanted to make sure that I still had something to fall back on just in case I thought I made a mistake or made a bad choice. I didn't. I was very, very pleased. Once I started, I was able to leave my company and then concentrate on school and my family. And Cooley was again the perfect fit to be able to maintain both schedules.

Christopher Lewis

It's great to have flexibility and be able to find a way to incorporate it into the busy life that you have. Not every graduate school does that, so it's nice to be able to find that and find what is the right fit for you in that regard. Now, throughout your experience, you did find success. You got through your law degree, you made it into the bar exam. You made it passed the bar exam. You're in practice right now. Talk to me about what you had to do, especially in transitioning from work back into school, and even the transition from originally back in your undergrad and the way in which you had to study and had to prepare yourself in undergrad. Talk to me about what you had to do to be able to set yourself up for success and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your law school journey?

Shelly McFarlane

I have to be honest, it was a transition. The biology chemistry area, it's just a different type of learning and studying than it is for law school. And my first year, it was difficult to transition because I was so technical and there was a right answer coming from undergrad. There was always an answer, a goal to work towards. And then when you get to law school? The answer was, well, who argued it better? Here's the outline, here's the law. And then you have to argue it to fit your facts. Well, again, it was different for me and a very different style of learning and studying. So the first year of law school, I think is difficult for everybody. But I did feel a little more pressure because I was coming from a different style. And again, I was able to overcome that and learn and adapt. And whether it's approaching your counselor, approaching your professors, asking for help, you have to be able to advocate for yourself. Not just when you're an undergrad or in law school, but even now, even today, you have to be able to ask for help and advocate in order to be able to continue to be successful. And I did that. My first year in law school, I made an appointment with a professor because I was struggling. I was struggling in how I needed to take exams because I was very long winded and I'd run out of time. And that to me, was my turning point. That's where once I was not afraid to ask for help and direction and I was able to get pointed in the right direction and how I was supposed to form these answers to these exams, that was where I flourished. I was not afraid. And then I was able to follow the direction of my professor. And he wanted to help, he wanted to see me succeed, but he didn't know I needed the help because I hadn't asked. And that really was the turning point for me. It was tough once I got there and got that extra direction, again, I was able to apply it across every class and be able to answer the questions like I needed to. Now, again, very different backgrounds. But in order to continue to succeed in law school, I had to make sure that my schedules were also balanced. After my first year, I knew what was expected and I knew how much time was going to be put into studying. I was somebody that came from balancing three jobs. As soon as I turned 16, I was balancing three jobs. I'd never not had a job. I'd always worked very, very hard to make sure that I had everything that I needed. And being able to step away from my career in order to concentrate and focus and be all in for law school was scary. It was a risk. And again, I had to make sure that I wasn't afraid to invest in myself. And I did that. And again, I was able to get through all of law school and be where I'm at today. Are there risks involved? Absolutely. But that's going to happen no matter what. No matter where you are, no matter what your goals are. You don't have to have it figured out from the very beginning. Again, when I was entering undergrad. I wanted to be a dental hygienist. And I tell that story to people often because my path was changed and I ended up exactly where I'm supposed to be. My goal was to help people and to have a family. And I'm able to do that from where I'm at today. So I wouldn't have been able to do all of the stuff and be able to reach those goals if it wasn't for, again, my undergrad at UVM Flint, and then also going through fully law school.

Christopher Lewis

I love what you put there because there's a lot to unpack. And one of the things you talked about, I'm going to say the invisible assumptions that graduate school faculty and more make of new students, that there are unseen assumptions and expectations that are placed on every graduate student. And when you do step into that graduate school journey, you may not know what those are. So being willing to be an advocate for yourself is so important. That's why I really love what you said, because you stepped forward and you may have been a little afraid at first, and I think that a lot of students would be afraid to step out and say, I don't get it, this is really hard. But that you have to be willing to do that and put yourself out there and to ask for the help that you need when you need it, as faculty will help you, or they'll point you in the right directions to where the help can be found, but you have to ask for it. Now, the things that I would love to hear from you is that now you are in your professional career. You're out there, you're helping people, as you said you wanted to be in that helping profession. And you are in a helping profession. You are a criminal defense attorney. You're working with individuals. I love the tagline for your business where you say, sometimes good people make bad choices. That's true. And they need help just like anybody else do. And I guess as you look at the career that you're in, the work that you're doing on a day to day basis, and you reflect back now on the training, on the graduate training and education that you receive, how did that prepare you for the work that you're doing on a daily basis?

Shelly McFarlane

So part of what I do, again, helping people, that is because sometimes good people make bad choices. I have to explain that to my children because a lot of the times people will say, well, why would you want to help those kinds of people? And it turns into me defending my career choice often because I have to explain what I do on a daily basis. And there's a lot of things that law school teaches you, but there are also a lot of things that it can't and you will never learn in a school setting what type of impact you can have on individual people. A lot of the stuff that I do involves substance abuse. So drugs and alcohol and again, substance use. Substance abuse can affect so many people. Friends, family, strangers, all different types of people. And I'm able to get these clients the help that they need. You never know where you have substance abuse counseling. People don't know where these things are located because it's never going to happen to me. I was able to branch out and I go to these substance use and abuse centers. I go to residential facilities. I go out and meet these individual counselors. So when I have a client come to me and want to know what they can do to get help, in my mind, I'm already working towards the perfect match. I know exactly where I want to send them because I know this counselor and they're going to be able to help this client. In particular, I will get messages and phone calls that will say, I'm celebrating my five year sober today. I wouldn't have been here if it wasn't for you. I probably wouldn't still be alive if it wasn't for your help and your direction. So having the legal issue, again, those are the things that we learn in law school. We learn how to deal with the legal stuff. But the day to day, the personable stuff, again, where I said you have to advocate for yourself, reaching out, those are things that, again, I did do in law school, but it wasn't taught in law school. If you practice that and advocate for yourself, you're going to be that much more confident when you're advocating for somebody else. So when I pick up the phone and I call these facilities and I say, hey, I'm a defense attorney, this is what I do. I want to come check out your facility. You got to be okay to do that. And those, again, are things that you're not going to learn from a school setting, but you learn the concept, you learn the idea and the communication portion of it, whether it's undergrad or graduate school. So to be able to take all of that and tie it into a profession, again, there's more than just the schooling portion of it. There's so much more. And one thing, like I said, that you're not going to get from a graduate program, they're never going to be able to tell you what that impact feels like until you have that somebody pick up that phone and call you and tell you, hey, if it wasn't for you, I wouldn't be here. Thank you for helping me. You can have conversations. I speak at different events, really, across the state, but you never know who is listening, who in the audience. It's impacting. Same thing as this podcast. You never know who you're talking to. Most people have been affected by some sort of drug or alcohol use and abuse either they know somebody or they're going through a struggle personally. You never know who's on the other side. And by speaking about it and letting people know where they can go for help, again, it's part of making a difference. And that was part of my goal, is helping people. So to take the education portion of it and then also the real life stuff, there's a lot of real life stuff that you're not going to learn in school. One thing that you can do is go out and volunteer. You'll get a lot of that. I know the schools will talk about it and people will think about volunteering, but there's a lot of stuff that you can get from there when you do the clinics, I was a part of one of the clinics in Lansing where we helped with estate planning. You got to meet the clients through the clinics and that gave me a taste of what it felt like to help people face to face. So again, you can learn some of that there. But in the profession, once you get out here, there is that tenfold. You will have so many more experiences once you're practicing again, that school doesn't necessarily prepare you for, but you could prepare for it again by advocating for yourself.

Christopher Lewis

Now in finishing up today. One of the things that I would love to know, and this is kind of again, reflecting back, thinking about the journey that you went on, what you had to learn along the way, and maybe things that you wish you had known before you had gone into law school and gone through that law school journey for yourself. Are there any tips that you might want to offer others as they're considering graduate education that will help them define success?

Shelly McFarlane

Well, there's so much, I mean, again, being able to be confident in your decision to follow a path or follow a dream, I know it is so scary. Whether you're a high school graduate just beginning undergrad or if you're going to graduate school, that entire decision making process is scary. And it's like that for everybody. So I want everybody to know that those feelings are normal. Even if you come from a family of doctors or lawyers and you know that this is your path and you were born to be an attorney, you were born to be a doctor, you were born to be a teacher, whatever that path may be, it's okay to change. And if I would not have felt okay to change, I would have stayed and became a dental hygienist and that would have been my start and my end. I was confident enough to take a risk and confident enough to invest in myself. And each little change started to become bigger and bigger and that's how I ended up where I am today. And again, I can assure you this is exactly where I'm supposed to be. I thought I had a plan. And that plan continued to evolve. And I'm glad I allowed that to happen because there are so many lives that I've been able to impact from where I'm at today that I probably wouldn't have been able to do had I not been courageous enough to make the change. So I think that's probably the most important. Again, it's okay to have a path or not have a path, but remember the change portion of it. That's kind of the purpose of it all. As you go and you learn and you evolve, and you may end up in a different spot. And that's okay. That's okay. So have the confidence to be able to change and trust yourself, you'll know, when it's the perfect fit.

Christopher Lewis

Well, Shelley, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your own journey and for the work that you're doing to help people in the Genesee County area. And I really appreciate your time today and I wish you all the best.

Shelly McFarlane

Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

Christopher Lewis

The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education, whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

This week on the Victors in Grad School podcast, we are joined by Olivia Roe, second year Doctorate of Physical Therapy student at the University of Michigan-Flint. Today we talked to Olivia Roe about her own educational journey leading her from receiving her Bachelor's degree from Michigan State University to attending the University of Michigan-Flint for her Doctorate in Physical Therapy (DPT) degree.  

This podcast is brought to you by The Office of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan-Flint. If you're still wondering about other things to consider when it comes to graduate school, you can also contact the Office of Graduate Programs at UM-Flint. We're here to answer questions Monday – Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. EST. You can also find out more about the 50+ programs that the university has to offer here.

This week on the Victors in Grad School podcast, we are joined by Dayne Hopkins, Communications Specialist at the University of Michigan-Flint. Today we talked to Dayne Hopkins about his own educational journey leading him from receiving his Bachelor's degree from the University of Michigan-Flint to receiving a Master of Arts degree in Applied Communication, also from the University of Michigan-Flint.  

This podcast is brought to you by The Office of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan-Flint. If you're still wondering about other things to consider when it comes to graduate school, you can also contact the Office of Graduate Programs at UM-Flint. We're here to answer questions Monday – Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. EST. You can also find out more about the 50+ programs that the university has to offer here.

This week on the Victors in Grad School podcast, we are joined by Marissa Pierce, Director of Development for the Flint Institute of Arts. Today we talked to Marissa Pierce about her own educational journey leading her from receiving her Bachelor's degree from the University of Michigan-Flint to receiving a Master of Arts degree in English Language and Literature, also from the University of Michigan-Flint.  

This podcast is brought to you by The Office of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan-Flint. If you're still wondering about other things to consider when it comes to graduate school, you can also contact the Office of Graduate Programs at UM-Flint. We're here to answer questions Monday – Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. EST. You can also find out more about the 50+ programs that the university has to offer here.

This week on the Victors in Grad School podcast, we are joined by Coty Pyscher, Employer Relations Manager at the University of Michigan. Today we talked to Coty Pyscher about his own educational journey leading him from receiving his Bachelor's degree from the University of Michigan-Flint to working on receiving his Masters in Business Administration currently, also from the University of Michigan-Flint.  

This podcast is brought to you by The Office of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan-Flint. If you're still wondering about other things to consider when it comes to graduate school, you can also contact the Office of Graduate Programs at UM-Flint. We're here to answer questions Monday – Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. EST. You can also find out more about the 50+ programs that the university has to offer here.

This week on the Victors in Grad School podcast, we are joined by Brenton Nikola, Executive Director of the Erik Jones Foundation. Today we talked to Brenton Nikola about his own educational journey leading him from receiving his Bachelor's degree from the University of Michigan-Flint to receiving his Masters in Public Administration, also from the University of Michigan-Flint.  

This podcast is brought to you by The Office of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan-Flint. If you're still wondering about other things to consider when it comes to graduate school, you can also contact the Office of Graduate Programs at UM-Flint. We're here to answer questions Monday – Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. EST. You can also find out more about the 50+ programs that the university has to offer here.

This week on the Victors in Grad School podcast we are joined by Dr. Donna Fry, Dean of the College of Health Sciences at the University of Michigan-Flint. Today we talked to Donna Fry about her own educational journey leading her from receiving her Bachelors degree from the University of Michigan to receiving her Masters and PhD also from the University of Michigan. Dr. Fry talks about what makes the University of Michigan-Flint unique as well as how faculty in graduate programs want to see students succeed, not fail. 

This podcast is brought to you by The Office of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan-Flint. If you're still wondering about other things to consider when it comes to graduate school, you can also contact the Office of Graduate Programs at UM-Flint. We're here to answer questions Monday – Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. EST. You can also find out more about the 50+ programs that the university has to offer here.

This week on the Victors in Grad School podcast we are joined by Carla Beasley, Senior, Project Management - Macy's, East Region. Today we talked about her own educational journey leading her from receiving her Bachelors degree from the University of Michigan-Flint to getting two Masters degrees from both the University of Michigan and the University of San Francisco. With each of her Master's degrees she followed her passions to continue her own education. 

This podcast is brought to you by The Office of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan-Flint. If you're still wondering about other things to consider when it comes to graduate school, you can also contact the Office of Graduate Programs at UM-Flint. We're here to answer questions Monday – Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. EST. You can also find out more about the 50+ programs that the university has to offer here.

This week on the Victors in Grad School podcast we are joined by Al Perry, Athletics Director at Mott Community College and Executive Administrator of the Michigan Community College Athletic Association. Today we talked about his own educational journey, receiving his Bachelors and Masters degrees at the University of Michigan-Flint. Al talks about how his education led him from working for General Motors to a career in higher education.

This podcast is brought to you by The Office of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan-Flint. If you're still wondering about other things to consider when it comes to graduate school, you can also contact the Office of Graduate Programs at UM-Flint. We're here to answer questions Monday – Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. EST. You can also find out more about the 50+ programs that the university has to offer here.

This week on the Victors in Grad School podcast we are joined by Nick Goldsworthy, Partner at Witt & Goldsworthy, PLLC. Nick Goldsworthy was just named as one of the Flint and Genesee 40 under 40 and today we talked about his own educational journey going from his Bachelors at the University of Michigan-Flint to Western Michigan University Cooley Law School and then to Michigan State University College of Law. Nick talks about his lifelong dream of becoming a lawyer and what he had to do to find success.

This podcast is brought to you by The Office of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan-Flint. If you're still wondering about other things to consider when it comes to graduate school, you can also contact the Office of Graduate Programs at UM-Flint. We're here to answer questions Monday – Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. EST. You can also find out more about the 50+ programs that the university has to offer here.

Are you contemplating graduate school or already embarking on the journey? The latest episode of "Victors in Grad School" provides a wealth of inspiration and practical wisdom for anyone at any stage of their graduate education. Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, this insightful conversation with Dr. Greg Laurence, a seasoned professor of management at the University of Michigan-Flint, explores the twists and turns of building a career through graduate studies.

Dr. Greg Laurence offers a candid and relatable account of his own path—from earning a bachelor's degree in history, to teaching English in Japan, and ultimately finding his way into a management MBA and an international relations master's degree at Syracuse University. His story is marked by openness to change, reflection, and an emphasis on following your curiosity. He explains that the decision to pursue an MBA was driven by a desire to gain vocabulary and foundational knowledge in business, especially after experiencing the necessity for versatile skills while working abroad.

A key theme throughout the episode is the reality of transitions. Whether moving from undergraduate studies to the workforce, or shifting from professional roles back into academia, Dr. Greg Laurence discusses how these moments can feel daunting but are ultimately rewarding. From battling imposter syndrome to adjusting study habits that change with age, he insists that success is about finding your footing, developing effective routines, and embracing the challenges inherent in graduate programs.

The podcast doesn't just recount personal experiences; it's full of actionable advice for prospective and current students. Dr. Greg Laurence shares strategies for building self-belief ("You belong in this context"), leveraging diverse backgrounds for fresh perspectives, and not being afraid to voice ideas that may seem unconventional. Graduate school, he says, should challenge assumptions and push students to grapple with difficult questions in a supportive environment—without fear of costly mistakes.

"Victors in Grad School" is more than just a resource; it's a community for those on the graduate education journey. If you're on the fence about diving into grad school or looking for practical strategies to thrive, this episode is sure to resonate. Listen to hear not just the 'how,' but also the 'why' behind the transitions that shape successful careers—and discover the confidence to take the next step in your own academic journey.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]:
Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, I love being on this journey with you, this journey that you're on, to be able to move toward graduate school. And you might be at the very beginning where you're just starting to think about, do I want to do this graduate degree? Or maybe you've applied, maybe you've been accepted, maybe you're getting ready to start, maybe you're in graduate school, doesn't matter. But you are on a journey, and this podcast is here to help, because every week, I love being able to help you, give you some tools for your toolbox to help you prepare to be successful in this journey that. That you're on.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:55]:
That's why every week I bring you different guests with different experiences that can give you some different opportunities to be able to learn and grow from their own experiences. Today we got another great guest. Dr. Greg Lawrence is with us today, and Dr. Lawrence is a professor of management at the University of Michigan, Flint, and he's been here for a little over 15 years, and he's had his own graduate school journey. He started in Ohio and went from there to Syracuse, and we'll talk about all of that. So I'm really excited to have him here today to talk. Talk about his own journey and to share that with you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:30]:
Dr. Lawrence, thanks so much for being here.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:01:31]:
Thanks for inviting me. It's a good opportunity to reach out to prospective and current students and give them a, maybe a different kind of a sense of who a professor is and how in the world some of us got into doing this.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:45]:
Well, I want to take you back in time because I know, as I mentioned, you did your undergraduate degree at Ohio University, and you did that in history. And not everybody would expect that a person that got a bachelor's degree in history would go on to be a professor.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:02:00]:
Not. Not everyone, including me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:03]:
So I guess I want to hear more of this story. So take me back to that point. So you did your undergraduate degree, like I said, at Ohio University, got that bachelor's degree in history, and then you had a little bit of a break where you had got some experience, did some different things, and at some point, you made a decision that you wanted to continue your education, and you chose to do an MBA So bring me back to that point. What was going through your head and what made you decide that that was the right time to make that switch and make that jump into graduating?

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:02:35]:
So it probably isn't the simplest answer. After undergrad, maybe, like a lot of people, I was a little bit lost about what I wanted to do. And I had gone into undergrad thinking for sure that I would go on to grad school in history. And I really got burned out as an undergrad and didn't feel like I was ready to do that at that point in life. And I had a job. I was working in a paint store, of all places. And that company, they actually approached me about joining their management training program. And going down that route is a fairly accelerated thing where you went through different rotations in different parts of the business.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:03:13]:
And they were really sort of aiming for people who would end up as, like, district managers and continue on up the chain. And I knew pretty quickly that I was not all that interested in paint, and that that was not going to be a fit for me. And I remember I saw an ad in a. In a newspaper, said, do you want to work in Asia? Buy our book for 1995, and if you don't have a job within 90 days, we'll refund your money. And I thought, okay, well, try that. And that led to teaching English in Japan. I applied for a job within maybe two or three weeks of having that book, and within two months that I had a visa and was in Japan working. And I taught English there for six years.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:03:54]:
I thought it would be one or two, and one or two became six. And really at the end of the fifth year is when I made this decision. So I was working at a high school, and I had this conversation with the principal about performance, as you do. You know, he was saying, oh, yeah, we're super excited. You're doing such a great job. We really love the work you're doing with the students. We want to keep you here, but we can't give you a raise. And there I was, frankly, I was at the end.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:04:17]:
I had worked for a company teaching English for four years, and then I wanted to teach high school in junior high. So I left the company to go teach high school. When I did that, I took a pretty big pay cut, which was offset by free rent and some other things that the school had that ended up meaning I was making or what I had made when I left the company. But at that point, I was like, wait a minute. I don't think I can do this. As a long term career. And frankly I was not at all sure what I wanted to do. The goal was to be able to do anything in Japan that was not, not teaching English.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:04:49]:
And as I thought about that, I thought working for the company where I had worked, we had been involved in the business. So we had monthly meetings about profit and loss at our branch school and how were we going to increase revenue, what were the different ways that we could increase revenue. And we had done some things but I had never really understood fundamentally what it was that made businesses tick. And it seemed to me as though if I was going to make this move from teaching into some non teaching field that having some training would be a good idea. And I mean, I think there are those who would say the heck with that, just find an entry level job, you can sell your transferable skills to somebody and you'd be able to find an entry level job. But I'm sort of more. I liked the idea of having some vocabulary and some sense of the way that people around me were going to be thinking. And that is really what led to the decision to get an mba.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:05:42]:
And I was in Japan when I did all the applications. So I was geographically untethered from really I could have gone anywhere, anywhere in the US and ended up choosing Syracuse for a variety of reasons. One was the financial aid package, but another was the opportunity there to do a concurrent master's in international relations at the same time that I did the MBA and at the Maxwell School at Syracuse is a pretty well regarded school. So I was like, well that's a really cool combination that gives me the functional thinking around business, but then also satisfies some interests that I had connected back to history in an interest, interesting way. And it ended up turning out that that combination of things was really instrumental in terms of finding a job afterwards. Really fundamentally the reason the decision was based on. I was at a point in my life where I felt like I needed to make a left turn or right turn, whichever one you call it. But I wasn't going straight on from that point.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:06:42]:
And that was the degree that I felt was going to open as many doors as possible and to make those ideas around. I don't know what industry I want to be in. I don't really know functional area of business I want to be in yet. But if I study them all, maybe that'll help me find a direction.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:59]:
Now you found your direction because you went in, you went through that master's degree and you ended up going from there and you ended up Deciding to continue your education into a PhD?

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:07:12]:
Yeah, but not right away. So I did. Yeah, I did. I finished my MBA in 2003. The last semester of my MA I did at Waseda University in Tokyo while I had an internship at afs. I don't know if you're familiar with them. American Field Service to do foreign exchange programs for high school students. And I had been an exchange student in one of their programs when I was in high school.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:07:35]:
So when I arrived in Tokyo, I sent a letter to their Tokyo office and said, hey, here I am. I speak Japanese pretty well, can I come and work in the office? And they said, sure, we'll give you something to do. So so I did that and until I was done with degree and then found a job for a development consulting company in Tokyo that was doing World Bank, Asian Development bank, those kind of big international financial institution consulting projects all over the world, I suppose mostly in Southeast Asia, but really in, you know, the former Soviet bloc. Lots of interesting places. And I worked in business development for them for two years and then transitioned over to. Transitioned from them over to the American Chamber of Commerce in Japan where I was the membership manager. Now that was a cool job. Actually both of those jobs were pretty cool.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:08:28]:
But one thing that I discovered about myself was that I get bored pretty easily. And six months into each of those jobs I was like, oh my gosh, give me something different to do and something more meaty to chew on. And those contexts didn't allow for that. And I had had three professors during the MBA program, I think independ, but who knows, maybe they were talking to each other. They had suggested while I was in the MBA program, hey, have you ever thought about getting a PhD in management? And of course my answer was no. Who has? Conceptually I understood that the professors had PhDs in something, but what it was I didn't know. And that sort of earbud, I guess you'd call it, came back to me as I was sitting at work fairly bored. And so I got back in touch with one of those professors and I said, hey, can you tell me more about this? And he sent me a stack of peer reviewed journal articles to read and you know, said, read these and if, if you're still interested you can get back to me.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:09:30]:
It was that realization that.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:09:34]:
The sort of the intellectual stimulation.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:09:39]:
I just hadn't. Maybe I, you know, there are probably places to work where one would get it, but I hadn't found them. And that's what really led me back to.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:09:48]:
Thinking that a PhD at more graduate school was the right direction.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:52]:
Now, with both the master's and the doctorate degrees, there are transitions, just like going from an undergraduate to a graduate degree. There's transitions in the way that you learn, the way that you're what you're expected to do, the all of those pieces. And you made transitions from your undergrad to work, from work, to school, from school, back to work, from work, back to school. You made a number of transitions in your journey. As you think about the transition transitions that you made in your master's, in your doctorate degree, and you think about what you had to do in those transitions, what did you have to do in those transitions, both at the front end when you were transitioning into graduate school to be able to find success, but what did you have to also do to maintain that success throughout the entire journey?

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:10:41]:
So I think for sure, for the first one into the MBA program, that that was challenging because I didn't have, or I didn't think I had the sort of stereotypical, prototypical business background. Being a history major and then having taught English for six years, certainly I was worried about whether I would fit with the classmates in my cohort and whatnot who were coming from what I would have considered to be more traditional business backgrounds. And so there was some length of time during which I had to, you know, it was about establishing to myself that I belonged in that context. And, you know, I studied my butt off, frankly, for the first eight weeks or so of the first semester. I mean, until that first midterm came around, and it was an accounting midterm. And I was like, I cannot afford for this to go badly, so I need to nail this thing. When the grade came back from that, I was like, oh, okay, well, this may not be. This may not be so bad.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:11:43]:
And that gave me a lot of confidence to then transition into, I guess, at that point, like a role that I really fit naturally. Right. All of a sudden, I had classmates coming to me for help on accounting and finance and supply chain homework, which, if you would ask anyone I know prior to me starting my MBA program, like, do you think people will come to Greg with questions and for help on quantitative things? They would have been like, you're out of your mind. Of course not. But I just found that it was a much better fit for the way that I think than I thought it was going to be. And I transitioned into that really well. I found that my background, you know, ended up being really valued in the classroom by classmates and by faculty. And I tell this to students.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:12:28]:
I just had a conversation the other day, in fact, with one of this, one of our students who's in the MBA program, who is an educator, and she was expressing some worry about fit and whether she was in the right place and what was she going to be able to do post. And I said, look, we think that those kinds of different experiences that people have are really valuable. And you're working in an organization, you're working with people, you have the same kinds of interpersonal conflicts that everybody else has. Don't let anyone tell you that working in a school is not working in the real world. It's very real. And that once you realize that, okay, somebody, person X who works for engineering firm or a person Y who works for an insurance firm, they don't necessarily have a leg up on you in your area if you're coming at it from a different angle, because that different angle is by itself of value. So I think that was the big transition from sort of that first work experience into the MBA program. The transition into the PhD program was probably more difficult.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:13:32]:
First, I was what, seven years older and my brain was seven years less sponge, like it was more like pouring water onto a brick. And some of it seeps in, but not very much. Like that's how it kind of felt when I started. And the intentionality of having to study really truly full time, 55 hours a week to make a dent in my understanding of the field that I was in was a real challenge. The first semester of the PhD program was much, much rougher of a transition than had been the first semester of the mba. But I mean, I think like, just as with the mba, it was about finding footing and figuring out your routine and figuring what kinds of study approaches work for you, like your body, your brain, everything about you is different at 30 than it was at 20. And so the, the same rules no longer apply. And you have to feel, feel things out a little bit there at the beginning to sort of understand, do you need him? I see young people all the time seem to be totally fine with studying in a coffee shop and with that noise and whatnot.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:14:37]:
Or I could not. There's no way I could do that when I was 35, and no way that I would have had to be. I found myself needing to be in with noise, noise canceling, headphones on and completely isolated from everything to be able to concentrate on reading or whatever I was doing. So I think it's about finding your routine and finding, finding, you know, what works for you and how to how to balance your work in your life. You can study 100 hours a week if you want to. You probably shouldn't, I think.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:07]:
Yep, definitely understand that. And there is that balance that you have to find for yourself. And it's the notion, always easy, I guess, as you think about your own graduate school experience and you think about the experiences that you've had working with graduate students. Now you mentioned talking to a graduate student just recently about that I'm going to say imposter syndrome of am I really good enough to be here? Am I smart enough? Am I, you know, all of those things, those am I questions that come up as you think about students that are thinking about graduate school today, whether it be an MBA or some other pieces. What are some tips that you might offer them as they are considering graduate school that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:15:56]:
I mean, it's easy to say, but like, don't worry about that stuff. I think relatively few people make a decision to go to graduate school lightly. I mean, I think relatively few people wake up one day and say, I think I'm going to devote the next three years of my life to going to grad school. I think most people have put some thought into it and most people have investigated the content of the degree that they want to pursue. What's the curriculum going to look like, what courses are being offered, this kind of thing. And something about that has attracted them and taken them to the point where they're being intentional about filling out an application to do it. And if that's the case, then I think I would balance that self belief. I have chosen to do this because it's the right thing for me at this time in my life.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:16:45]:
And that's going to, I think, balance out those questions that you have. And you need to sort of, you may be in that first class and.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:16:55]:
Maybe somebody says something that you're like, that's really profound, like, how did they think of that? And that may be intimidating, but I would think to yourself and you know, think like all think about the fact that that person may be two thirds of the way through their program and they've been exposed to a bunch of content that you have not yet. And so it's natural that they've got these different lenses to view things through and they may say something that you're like, that's really cool. How did they think of that? Well, they thought about it, about it because they've been exposed to all of these other things that you're going to be exposed to going forward. And so maybe that's just an indication of how you're going to be able to think about stuff six months or a year from now and your tool kit isn't as complete as theirs are. And that's totally fine. So that I think is the biggest thing to realize is that, okay, yes, there are these moments that are going to feel intimidating, but if you think about them for a minute or two, you'll realize that it's probably just that those folks have a, have built things up and they've cobbled together ideas that you are yet to be exposed to. So take that idea that they just said and stick it in your back pocket and think about it. When you get into a marketing class, that concept that they were talking about comes up and now you can make that connection back to that first moment and be like, aha, I see what was going on there.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:18:13]:
So that I think to me is the biggest thing that it's like, I don't know, I guess I can really remember being a, being like a freshman or a sophomore in college and you get a syllabus for a class and it would be like you have to write a 25 page term paper on some aspect of Babylonian history or whatever and you're like, I don't know anything about this. How am I going to ever write a 25 page paper on it? Well, of course you don't know anything about it. It's day one of the class and you're not going to know enough to even define a topic until week five. So relax, don't freak out about that stuff. The class, I mean, have confidence in the faculty. I mean, that's one piece of advice that's, that's a good one. Right? Broadly, we have thought faculty fairly carefully about does this class need a prerequisite in order for you to be successful? If not, you'll be okay even if other people are in the class and they've already had a bunch of other courses. Like we're, we've designed the course so that you can be successful if you don't have a prerequisite.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:19:11]:
Because if you couldn't, we would put a prerequisite on it. So I think that's, that's one piece of advice, right? Is like, sure, be nervous. Sometimes stress is good eustress, they call it in the business. But you know, also realize that these things are sort of designed so that you're not being set up for failure. And.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:19:33]:
If you do what's on the page as far as the syllabus is concerned and you read what you're supposed to read and you know you'll be okay.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:39]:
Well, Greg, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for sharing everything that you have learned thus far. And I'm sure you're still learning as you work with more students, as you're teaching more classes. But I truly appreciate your time today and for you sharing all of this with us, and I wish you all the best.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:19:59]:
If I can give one more piece of advice to a student, it is to not be afraid to express thoughts and ideas that you have about class content that may feel like they're coming out of left field. I have designed my courses to be the courses themselves are out of left field for a lot of people. They come in and they look at my syllabi and they go, what is going on in terms of the structure of the course and how the grading systems are set up and things like that. But they're designed to free the students to think about problem from different angles. And you shouldn't be afraid to do that. Graduate school is about exposing yourself to different ways of thinking and to challenge your assumptions, and it shouldn't be. And this is, I'm stealing from Michael Wheeler, who's a Harvard faculty member who wrote a paper about this that I read once. It should not be painless.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:20:50]:
You should have your assumptions challenged and you should struggle with things. And if you're not struggling with things, like you're not probably, I think you're probably not thinking about them hard enough. You're just sort of scratching the surface of the content that's in front of you. And I would encourage you to go deeper and to grapple with the tough questions because it's a place where you can do that without costing your company $5 million. For example, the decisions that you make about how to think about a problem in a business class, I mean, if it's not right, that's okay, right? Learn from that mistake. You didn't just press the wr. The wrong button on a keyboard and cost, you know, make a trade you weren't supposed to that lost your company 3 million bucks or whatever. So it's.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:21:35]:
I, I find the whole. I really liked being in grabbing and I like being in graduate school enough that I did it twice and spent a long time, a long time there. So hopefully students will, will hear this. Prospective students may hear this, think, you know what? I'm going to give it a shot, and I think you'll come out of the other side of it. With a real sense of accomplishment.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:55]:
I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that today, for sharing your own perspectives, and I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:22:03]:
Thanks very much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:04]:
The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit UM Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:25]:
To find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

This week on the Victors in Grad School podcast we are joined by Kellen Riker, Senior Accountant at Yeo & Yeo CPAs & Business Consultants. Kellen Riker was just named as one of the Flint and Genesee 40 under 40 and today we talked about his own educational journey going from his Bachelors to Masters degree at the University of Michigan-Flint. Kellen shares a ton of thoughts on finding success and things that helped him that can help you as well.

This podcast is brought to you by The Office of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan-Flint. If you're still wondering about other things to consider when it comes to graduate school, you can also contact the Office of Graduate Programs at UM-Flint. We're here to answer questions Monday – Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. EST. You can also find out more about the 50+ programs that the university has to offer here.

This week on the Victors in Grad School podcast we are joined by Jenn Swank, Human Resources Manager with Sorensen Gross. We talk to Jenn Swank about her own educational journey in receiving both her Bachelors and Masters from the University of Michigan-Flint. Jenn shares some great tips on what she learned over the years in receiving her degrees and the process she followed to find the perfect program to meet her personal and professional needs.

This podcast is brought to you by The Office of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan-Flint. If you're still wondering about other things to consider when it comes to graduate school, you can also contact the Office of Graduate Programs at UM-Flint. We're here to answer questions Monday – Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. EST. You can also find out more about the 50+ programs that the university has to offer here.

This week on the Victors in Grad School podcast we are joined by Jon Davidson , Solutions Architect Lead at University of Michigan - Flint. We talk to Jon Davidson about his own educational journey in receiving both his Bachelors and Masters from the University of Michigan-Flint.

This podcast is brought to you by The Office of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan-Flint. If you're still wondering about other things to consider when it comes to graduate school, you can also contact the Office of Graduate Programs at UM-Flint. We're here to answer questions Monday – Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. EST. You can also find out more about the 50+ programs that the university has to offer here.