Explorez tous les épisodes du podcast Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation

This week, the girls are joined by Jasper Hoffman, writer, podcaster, and former Mennonite. In part one, she explains how her parents went from a being punk rock atheist and an anthropology major to homesteading, homeschooling, and going to church: first a non-denominational one, and then a Mennonite church that came to town for “Revival Week” when Jasper was a kid.

She’ll describe how it then escalated to her family moving to the Midwest, getting rid of all of their material possessions, and committing wholeheartedly to being Mennonites, with redacted encyclopedias and physical punishment in the basement for children who were considered rebellious–and why she was forbidden from going back to school.

Plus, stay tuned for part two next week, in which she tells her story of leaving the church.

SOURCES

The Plain People's Podcast

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This week, Lola’s mom Dr. Christine Marie (and the podcast’s very first guest!) comes back on the show to talk about moving to FLDS town Short Creek, how she and Lola’s stepdad Tolga earned the trust of new self-proclaimed polygamist prophet Sam Bateman, and what else was going on behind the scenes of what’s in the Netflix docuseries Trust Me: The False Prophet.

She’ll tell the girls about her frustrations with the speed of the case, what it was like going undercover with the FBI, the bravery of all of the women involved, and being there for the raid that finally landed him in prison for sexual abuse.

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In part two with Nikki G., she discusses more of the high-control groups she joined, the political project of the Seven Mountain Mandate that she was part of, the connection between biblical concepts of obedience and white supremacy, and how everyone joins cults, even if white people are the biggest group talking about it. Plus, the difference between “church hurt” and religious trauma.

SOURCES

Surviving the Black Church Podcast

Black Religious Trauma Recovery Network

Nikki G. Speaks

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This week, Nikki G., host of Surviving the Black Church and survivor of FIVE different high-control groups, discusses joining the first church on her cult-hopping journey, how she got initially pulled down the rabbit hole by conspiracy theories and the Book of Revelation, and the intensity and community that drew her to each group.

She tells the girls about her second and more radical group, IHOP (International House of Prayer), how she eventually learned the term “religious addiction,” and why the idea of “waiting for your Boaz,” or your perfect husband, can be so harmful for women in the church.

SOURCES

Surviving the Black Church Podcast

Black Religious Trauma Recovery Network

Nikki G. Speaks

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This week, Lola and Meagan are joined by comic, actor, and author of Sure I’ll Join Your Cult, Maria Bamford. The girls discuss Maria’s childhood OCD, intrusive thoughts, and the ways those experiences primed her to seek support, structure, and belonging through a variety of groups later in life. They explore culty (but helpful!) aspects of 12 step programs like Debtors Anonymous and Al-Anon, along with the many other communities she’s loved and joined along the way.

Maria also shares her experience with eating disorders, going to treatment in her twenties, and the controversial Suzuki Method through which she learned violin as a child.

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This week is part 2 with Sarah Edmondson, NXIVM survivor, author, and host of A Little Bit Culty. The girls pick back up as Sarah goes deeper into the organization, eventually entering DOS and confronting the growing contradictions inside NXIVM. She’ll discuss the emotional grip of the group, the normalization of control, and the psychological unraveling that began once the cracks became impossible to ignore.

Sarah also opens up about loyalty, fear, cognitive dissonance, and the terrifying process of realizing the self-help system she devoted years to was built around manipulation. The conversation explores deconstruction in real time, what finally pushed her to question Keith Raniere, and how leaving meant rebuilding her entire sense of self.

SOURCES

A Little Bit Culty

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This week is part 1 with, at long last, Sarah Edmondson, NXIVM survivor, author, and host of A Little Bit Culty, a podcast and now book, co-hosted and authored with her husband, Nippy Ames. She’ll tell the girls how she first joined the self-help group—which turned out to be a sex cult—starting with a comment by Mark Vicente that shook her worldview. She’ll discuss why she was drawn to the goal-oriented framework and define some core tenets of NXIVM, including what it means to be “at cause" by demonstrating the exercise on Lola and Meagan.

Sarah will explain how tenets like being "at cause" were actually tools for manipulation used to deflect from the group’s wrongdoings. She will also discuss feeling starstruck when she first met leader Keith Raniere, who claimed to be the smartest man in the world, and the idea of “spiritual wives” (and how he may have stolen that from Lola’s prophet).

Next week we’ll get into her later years in the group, DOS, and how she left.

SOURCES

A Little Bit Culty

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In part 2 with Nomzia aka Nomz Bistline, from Netflix’s docuseries Trust Me: The False Prophet (with Lola’s mom), Nomz shares what it was like getting raided by the FBI, how she felt about Lola’s mom when she learned Christine was the FBI informant, and why the “prophet” Samuel Bateman was obsessed with marrying the queen of England.

She discusses the events leading up to her time in jail, how she began the painful process of deconstructing while in prison, and what life has been like since getting out–and finally being free of Samuel Bateman.

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This week is part one with Nomzia “Nomz” Bistline, from the Netflix docuseries Trust Me: The False Prophet (with Lola’s mom, Christine!). Nomz joins the girls to talk about what it was like growing up in polygamist group the FLDS after leader Warren Jeffs went to prison, how she was raised in poverty and taught to be paranoid about the outside world, and how many of the fathers in the community were sidelined and sent away.

She explains how Samuel Bateman began claiming that he was the new prophet, and what it was like when he started targeting her and wearing her down over time, threatening her salvation and ultimately coercing her into becoming one of his wives.

And next week, she’ll talk about the raid, Sam’s conviction, and her relationship with Christine now.

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Lyndsey Burr, longtime reality television producer who worked on America’s Next Top Model for years, joins the girls to talk about her experiences working on the now-controversial hit show. She talks about what the team looked for when casting, some of the more problematic challenges the show used, and the time she lost the models in Thailand.

They discuss how it was the wild west of reality TV, with every show in the early days trying to outdo each other and often not considering the consequences for the folks on the show, and Tyra’s own arc and whether she was perpetuating the harmful cycle she’d been trying to stop. Plus, why Lyndsey thinks unscripted television has–hopefully–been getting more ethical.

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In part two with Matthew Remski (author and host of the Conspirituality podcast), Matthew shares how he cult hopped from his first guru to his second, the moment that disillusioned him, and the cultural patterns he's seeing—including a resurgence of the Satanic panic—that most alarm him as he follows conspiracies and spirituality on his podcast.

He’ll talk about how the importance of addressing the root economic causes of why so many people are looking to snake oil salesmen for answers, pointers from his upcoming book (Antifascist Dad) for how to navigate this fraught information landscape, and why it’s important to create healthy organizing spaces–since all sides of the political spectrum are susceptible to cultish behavior.

SOURCES

Conspirituality

Antifascist Dad

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This week’s guest is Matthew Remski, author and host of the Conspirituality podcast. In part one, he talks about his own personal experiences with gurus and cultic dynamics, and what led him to the topic of cults and conspiracies. He tells the girls about his own religious upbringing, the mysterious seizures that led to his fascination with spirituality, and what drew him to his first charismatic guru, Michael Roach.

He explains what an average day was like following Roach for three high-demand years, traveling with him and attending his “classes,” what the physical manifestations of his spiritual experiences were like in both that group and the next one he joined, and what led to his disillusionment (with the first one).
Plus, next week: He’ll tell us why he cult-hopped, patterns he sees emerging in the world of cults and conspiracies, how we can keep political spaces healthy, and what Marx has to do with any of it.

SOURCES

 Conspirituality Podcast

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Author Harrison Hill joins the girls to discuss his new book The Oracle’s Daughter, which follows the rise and fall of a small cult called the Aggressive Christianity Missions Training Corps. He explains what the religious landscape in America looked like at the time, with the spiritual awakening and unrest of the 60s transitioning into a new Christianity movement, and how this group’s leader Lila Carter (who later became Deborah Greene) began her spiritual journey on a commune called the Bear Tribe.

They discuss the beginnings of Lila’s own visions, moaning and grunting and giving birth to what she called “spiritual soldiers,” how her following grew, and the parallels between her and Shaker leader Ann Lee. Naturally, the group became more controlling and cruel over time, changing people’s names to words like “Despised,” using physical punishment on its members, and even kidnapping a baby. And finally, they touch on how Lila’s daughter Sarah, the subject of the book, found her own way through all of this, eventually leaving and sharing her story of survival.

SOURCES

The Oracle’s Daugher: The Rise and Fall of an American Cult

The Cut - How Sarah Greene Escaped Her Mother's Cult

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Celeste Gross joins the girls to talk about her experiences growing up in the Children of God - aka the Family - along with her many siblings. She explains how her parents joined when it still just seemed like a beautiful gospel movement that helped her dad get sober, but how it changed over time once they lived on a commune in Brazil and became reliant on donations for survival. She shares how every part of life was controlled–down to how many squares of toilet paper they were allowed to use.

They discuss the media ban the group imposed, and how only songs and TV shows made by the group were allowed--other than two very specific movies (which will surprise you). She shares how her family became homeless overnight after they finally left, and the extreme hardships they faced while trying to rebuild a life from nothing.

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This week, Dan Olson, creator and host of YouTube channel Folding Ideas, returns to continue the conversation on cryptocurrency and NFTs. They discuss how these bubbles are driven primarily by charismatic leaders, why success rates of investment are similar to MLMs (read: the vast majority of investors don’t win big), and how there’s a lot of shame around having lost money in this arena–but why more men should come forward with their stories.

Dan explains why there’s no inherent difference between scam cryptocurrencies and so-called “real” cryptocurrencies, since all are rooted in speculation and faith, where the line is between greed and just being a victim of American prosperity gospel, and what to look out for to prevent yourself from getting scammed.

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This week, Dan Olson of the YouTube channel Folding Ideas joins the show for a deep dive into crypto, NFTs, and why so many of these spaces start to feel less like finance and more like belief systems. He breaks down the history of Bitcoin, what cryptocurrencies actually are, and how NFTs exploded into the mainstream, with investor communities promising not just wealth, but destiny–as long as they suppress their doubt and stay in line.

They discuss the gender divide and whether crypto is MLMs for men: same promises of prosperity, different packaging. Plus, some of the insider jargon and acronyms used to shut down skepticism, and how it all added up to a financial technology becoming a social identity.

And stay tuned for part two next week, when Dan will zoom in on the role of charismatic leaders in driving the decision-making.

SOURCES

Folding Ideas

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This week is part two with Liz Cameron, author of Cult Bride and survivor of Korean religious group Jesus Morning Star, also known as JMS. Last week she discussed the slow process of indoctrination into the group, and this week Liz shares how she learned the community's deepest secret: the mysterious Pastor Joshua was actually named Jung Myung-seok, but he was REALLY the Second Coming of Jesus. And yes, he was currently sitting in prison in South Korea for committing sexual assault… but don’t worry, that was just because of persecution.

Liz explains how all the carefully planned indoctrination leading up until this point primed her to be able to accept something like this, how she’d been identified to be one of the brides of the leader, what happened when she traveled to Korea to meet him in person, and how the eating disorder re-triggered by the group landed her in the hospital—but ultimately helped her get out of the group.

SOURCES

Cult Bride

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This week is part one with Liz Cameron, survivor of South Korean religious sect Jesus Morning Star (aka JMS, aka Providence), and author of Cult Bride: How I Was Brainwashed – and How I Broke Free. She explains how her entry into JMS began with being approached by a woman in a bookstore for a harmless survey, and how that survey turned into a bible study group full of women who gained her trust and introduced her to their new and exciting Christian church.

Liz shares how the group began encouraging her to spend more and more time together and get up earlier and earlier, and how they painted her old church, community, and even family as people who weren’t dedicated enough to Jesus–all as they slowly introduced the idea of an incredibly spiritually devoted man they called Pastor Joshua.

Next week: we’ll get into how they began to reveal who Pastor Joshua really was (hint: his name was Jung Myung-seok), his criminal history, and how a god on earth could be sitting in a prison in Korea.

SOURCES

Cult Bride

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This week we’re back with Martina Castro, creator of new Exactly Right podcast Two Faced: John of God, a series about John of God, the famous Brazilian “healer” and “psychic surgeon.” Last week she explained John of God’s so-called healings and doctor spirits that attracted celebrities and visitors from all over the world, and this week Martina walks Lola & Meagan through some of the darker allegations that began to come out.

She shares about how the sexual abuse survivors began to come forward with their stories, the deep political influence John of God had in the town that allowed him to get away with it in plain sight for literally decades, and the mysterious disappearances of people in the town. They discuss the dynamics of devotion and denial, and what it takes to finally break the spell.

SOURCES
Two-Faced: John of God
Dos Caras: Juan de Dios

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This week’s guest is Martina Castro, creator of podcast Two Faced: John of God, Exactly Right’s new podcast series about John of God, the Brazilian self-proclaimed healer and “psychic surgeon.” In part one, Martina explains John of God’s history and mythology, how he became internationally famous for his alleged healings (amplified by celebrities like Oprah), and the carefully primed environment he created called “the Casa.” Everyone dressed in white! Crystals! Waterfalls! And of course, lines of pilgrims watching him channel “doctor spirits” to supposedly heal the town's many visitors.

They discuss how his “free healings” weren’t as free as promised, his so-called “invisible surgeries” that supposedly worked from across the globe, and the in-person healings he did that involved putting objects up uncomfortably far up people’s nasal cavities. And next week, we’ll get into the explosive allegations that came out during the #MeToo movement.

SOURCES
Two-Faced: John of God
Dos Caras: Juan de Dios

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This week, the show is joined by Parvati Shallow, two-time Survivor winner, current cast member on The Traitors, and author of Nice Girls Don’t Win: How I Burned it All Down to Claim My Power. Parvati shares about her childhood growing up in the Kashi Ashram, a high-control commune led by Joyce Green–or, as she made everyone call her, “Ma”. She discusses Joyce’s origin story and how she claimed to have experienced the stigmata, Joyce’s relationship with Ram Dass (who he later said he’d been bamboozled by her), and how she became increasingly coercive and controlling, including taking children from their parents and instructing members to scam their own families for money.

Parvati reflects on how her parents escaped but ultimately came back to the group, what it was like living on the commune and being wild in nature, and how surviving that environment shaped her instincts, resilience, and ability to read people–skills that later helped her win Survivor, and how she’s now unpacking what it means to reclaim her power on her own terms.

SOURCES

Nice Girls Don't Win

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This week’s guest is Jenny Eliscu, journalist, radio host, and producer on Britney vs. Spears, which covered Britney Spears’ infamous conservatorship. She explains how Britney’s struggles in 2008 were used to justify a permanent conservatorship—despite the contradiction of her being deemed too incapacitated to control her own life, yet well enough to tour, record, and generate massive income that her father, whom she barely had a relationship with, was in charge of.

Drawing from decades of reporting, a personal relationship with Britney, and her work on Britney v. Spears, Jenny breaks down the severity of the conservatorship, stripping Britney of the right to use her phone, make medical decisions, or even have a say in who her lawyer was going to be, and where Britney’s fight to end the conservatorship finally landed.

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In part 2 with podcaster & writer Jonathan Hirsch (creator of podcasts like Dear Franklin Jones), Lola & Meagan discuss life in the cult of Franklin Jones, aka Adi Da. They discuss the dramatic meditation rituals in the group, what it felt like to get blessed by the leader, and how different members saw some of the same things that had happened completely differently, depending on whether they still believed in him later or not.

They discuss the lawsuits and allegations against Jones and how the cult panic of the time impacted the way his followers saw them, the importance of being able to admit when you’re wrong, and how ultimately Jonathan left.

SOURCES

Dear Franklin Jones

The Mind Is Burning

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This week’s guest is Jonathan Hirsch, podcaster, producer, and author who grew up in Adidam, a cult led by new age guru Franklin Jones - also known as Adi Da. In this week’s episode, Jonathan explains how his parents joined the group while on a spiritual journey that started with them following a different guru, how many of Jones’s followers were indoctrinated by listening to his tapes, and the cult’s constantly changing belief system.

They discuss one follower’s fascinating experience seeing the doctrine differently after translating it into another language, what it was like growing up on the cult’s compound (with parents that were acupuncturists for the leader), and how helpful it is to know that there are other “cult kids” out there.

SOURCES

Dear Franklin Jones

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This week, Trust Me is joined by David Farrier, journalist and filmmaker known for documentaries like Tickled and Netflix series Dark Tourist. He shares about his work studying strange subcultures and conspiracy theorists and what he’s learned along the way, and then dives into his investigation into Arise Church, the largest megachurch in New Zealand.

David explains how his interviews with ex members revealed the church’s systemic pattern of exploiting harrowing unpaid internships--with work hours that led to multiple members having mental breakdowns. He discusses the financial exploitation and sexual assault cover-ups that occurred, how it all got exposed, and what became of the church. Plus: a couple of tangents, including one about Hell House, the Christian church-run haunted house that simulates hell to scare you into joining.

SOURCES

Webworm

Flightless Bird Podcast

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This week’s guest is Jess Rothschild, creator of documentary podcast "Cult of Body & Soul," which dives into the history of cult fitness brand Soulcycle. She explains the spinning company's origins, how the workout environment was engineered to create an almost religious experience, and why instructors chosen for their devoted followings and special charisma made it a cultural phenomenon.

They discuss the social hierarchies that formed inside and outside of class, the mysticism infused into the culture, and what she herself loved about it--and how the corporate takeover of the brand changed everything.

SOURCES

Cult of Body and Soul

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Episode 19: Lola Blanc & Meagan Elizabeth interview Elana Auerbach, former follower of sexual wellness company OneTaste--elsewhere deemed the Orgasm Cult--in its early years. Elana discusses being the founder's right hand woman as the program developed, and how the sexual practice involving stimulating a woman's genitals evolved into what's now called Orgasmic Meditation. They discuss how Elana came to center her life around the founder, how she was manipulated, and what snapped her out of it.

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Survivor's of Larry Ray's sex cult Felicia and Daniel discuss how they came to meet Larry, how he leveraged his memory and connections to craft an image of authority, how Larry gained control of their lives under the guise of helping them, when the manipulation elevated into sexual abuse and violence, and how they're doing now that Larry is going to jail for the harm he has caused.

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This week’s guest is Theo Pratt, survivor of Gloriavale, an isolated Christian cult hidden deep in rural New Zealand, and author of Unveiled: A Story of Surviving Gloriavale. She’ll talk about being raised on the strictly controlled commune where people were assigned new names, women wore identical dresses and head coverings, and children weren’t taught the real days of the week—or even where they were in the world.

Theo shares about the leader Neville Cooper’s self-proclaimed divine authority, how “smacking ladies” kept the kids in line—and guards kept the compound controlled, and her rebellious streak that led her to planning an escape attempt on a tandem bicycle. And of course, the moment she realized she couldn’t stay, and what it felt like to step into the outside world she’d been taught would destroy her.

SOURCES:

Unveiled: A Story of Surviving Gloriavale

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Renee DiResta, professor and author of Invisible Rulers: The People Who Turn Lies Into Reality, joins the show again to dive deeper into disinformation, propaganda, and "pseudo-events," or manufactured controversies and news stories.

She explains why it’s so difficult to tell fact from fiction online, how propagandists stoke real, often legitimate tensions to create division, how American politicians are amplifying false information instead of shutting it down, and possible policies that could help reduce our culty social media silos.

SOURCES

Invisible Rulers: The People Who Turn Lies Into Reality

The Image: A Guide to Pseudo-events in America

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This week’s guest is Renee DiResta, professor, and author of Invisible Rulers: The People Who Turn Lies Into Reality. In part one this week, she talks to Lola and Meagan about propaganda, disinformation vs. misinformation, and how social media algorithms push us all into highly individualized, “bespoke” realities.

They discuss how she became interested in this topic after social media algorithms started suggesting anti-vaxxer content to her, how rage bait and other emotionally charged material spreads faster, and why social media makes it seem like other people have more extreme views than the majority of them actually do.

SOURCES

Invisible Rulers: The People Who Turn Lies Into Reality

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This week, Lola and Meagan continue their conversation with Mike and Abbi Prussack, former members of Meagan’s childhood church, the 2x2s. In part 2, they walk the girls through the abuse crisis that has shaken the group in recent years and the long-standing patterns that allowed the harm to continue. Mike and Abbi explain how church leadership handled reports, why victims felt they had nowhere to turn, and how secrecy and obedience has shaped the culture for generations.

They also discuss the FBI investigation, the community’s response, and what it has been like to help moderate the Ex 2x2 Facebook group during a moment of collective reckoning. The conversation looks at the cost of silence and the pressure to stay loyal, plus why so many people are choosing to finally speak out now.

SOURCES

Wings for Truth

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This week, Lola and Meagan talk with Mike and Abbi Prussack, former members of Meagan’s childhood church, the 2x2s, also known as The Truth or The Way. The couple, who now help moderate the Ex-2x2 Facebook community, share what it was like growing up in a secretive religious group with no name, no building, and strict rules about who could be “in.”

They open up about meeting and marrying within the church, the single question that shattered their faith, and how leaving forced them to rebuild their identities from scratch.

Next week, part two dives into the FBI investigation, decades of hidden abuse, and what’s happening inside the group now that the truth is finally being exposed.

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This week, researcher Tim Squirrel joins Lola & Meagan to break down the manosphere: incels, redpill, MGTOW, and the differences between some of the misogynistic subcultures in the online world of men. They discuss how isolation can leave boys vulnerable to harmful internet communities, and how the algorithm can radicalize young people looking for identity.

From Andrew Tate to Jordan Peterson, Tim shares why and how hyper-masculine spaces thrive, touting themselves as self-help programs or advocating for withdrawing from society altogether. They chat about why these communities can also be bad for the people inside them, whether Lola has accidentally dated incels, and what to do if someone you know has fallen down the rabbit hole.

SOURCES

Movember

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In part 2, Sarma Melngailis, subject of the docuseries Bad Vegan and author of The Girl with the Duck Tattoo, tells Lola & Meagan how Mr. Fox consumed her time, overwhelmed her with information, and dangled promises of financial freedom that was always JUST around the corner as a way to get her to send him more and more money.

She’ll share about the fabricated online personas he created as part of the manipulation, how he always knew things it seemed like he couldn’t have known, and the tactics he used to keep her in a constant state of confusion and dependence, driving across the country until they were finally both arrested. Plus, how she felt about her time in Rikers, and the current status of her restaurant.

SOURCES

The Girl With the Duck Tattoo

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In part 1 with guest Sarma Melngailis, subject of the docuseries Bad Vegan and author of The Girl with the Duck Tattoo, Sarma shares about her life as the owner of a successful vegan restaurant in New York, how she met the man who called himself Mr. Fox on Twitter when he seemed to know her friend Alec Baldwin, her first impressions of Mr. Fox, and some of the initial red flags she missed.
They discuss the way he slowly wormed his way into her life, how he first started asking for money in a way that seemed innocuous at first, and some of the many manipulation tactics he used to coerce her into transferring an astronomical amount of money to him--and ultimately blowing up her life.

SOURCES

The Girl With the Duck Tattoo

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This week, the girls are joined by Arabelle Sicardi, writer, image theorist, and author of The House of Beauty: Lessons from the Image Industry. Lola and Meagan confess the cosmetic procedures they've each had, and Arabelle explores how the beauty industry preys on our deepest fears, giving us a false sense of control and training us to worship ideals that are impossible to reach. They reflect on the high rates of plastic surgery in Utah and the LDS church, the gendered differences between the beauty industry and biohacking, and the relationship of beauty to power.

Arabelle breaks down the cultiness of influencer brand trips, Coco Chanel's forgotten Nazi ties, and how easy it can be to isolate in luxury, detaching from the unseen global exploitation within the beauty industry. Plus: why beauty's true value lies not in perfection, but in human connection.

SOURCES:

The House of Beauty: Lessons from the Image Industry

Arabelle Sicard

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This week, the girls are joined by Anthony Cesar Duncan, an artist, mental health advocate, and survivor of ChatGPT psychosis. Anthony opens up about his descent into a psychotic episode, led by an unlikely new cult figure: ChatGPT. He describes how his episode began innocently enough, how the platform’s responses started to amplify his delusions and isolate him from his loved ones, and how quickly the line blurred between reality and the AI’s suggestions. What started as curiosity became obsession—and spiraled into a full-blown mental health crisis.

Anthony takes us inside the mindset of someone caught in a feedback loop with technology that seemed to understand him and want to help him—yet was ultimately leading him deeper into instability. He explains the ways people around him tried to intervene, why it was so difficult to break free, and what finally helped him begin to heal.

SOURCES

If you or a loved one are experiencing a mental health crisis, please contact: 

988 Lifeline

Call: 988

National Alliance on Mental Illness 

Call: 1-800-950-6264

Text: NAMI to 62640

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Aaron Goldenberg, actor, comedian, and (hilarious) content creator, joins Lola and Meagan to talk about being gay as a Christian child, what it was like learning Bill Gothard’s IBLP homeschool curriculum as a boy, and how his parents discovered his queerness and sent him to conversion therapy.

He talks about Exodus International, a now-disbanded “ex-gay” Christian ministry that taught that you could heal your gayness (until its president apologized to the gay community and said it didn’t work), doubling down on his belief that he could force himself to be straight, and how getting sober finally forced him to confront the truth and accept himself for who he really was.

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Journalist Sarah Stankorb comes on the show to talk about her book, Disobedient Women, and the deep dive she did on why a series of evangelical women in America began to leave their communities as the internet came into prominence. They discuss patriarchal teachings within cultures like the Quiverfull movement, including stories like Vyckie Garrison’s, who was pressured into having repeated pregnancies that defied her doctors and put her life at risk.

They also dive into figures like Bill Gothard, who built the IBLP curricula and created a system of mini-cults across the country, the many stories of sexual abuse that were covered up by various religious organizations, and how online communities helped women share stories, band together, and begin to speak out. Plus: how figures like Doug Wilson helped push Christian nationalism from the fringes into the political mainstream.

SOURCES:

Disobedient Women

Elle

Vice

Vice

Washtington Post

Cosmopolitan

Marie Claire

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Guests Erika Lantz and Elin Lantz Lesser join to discuss season 3 of their investigative podcast The Turning, which follows the journey of a young woman named Lindsay, a former member of a Christian group in Minnesota called River Road Fellowship. They talk about the background of the leader Victor Bernard, how Lindsay’s parents moved the family to the cult compound, and what it was like living there—with rapture drills that required the members to never venture far from the compound, a massive bonfire designed to destroy the members’ attachments to their pasts, and other forms of strict control. 

They discuss how Lindsay was selected as a teenager to be one of Victor’s ten “maidens,” a group of girls and women living next to his lodge who were subjected to coerced labor and eventually sexual exploitation in what Lindsay only later learned was meant to be a lifelong commitment, the escape plans she was making, and how glimpses of the outside world led her to finally leaving.

SOURCES: 

The Turning: River Road

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Journalist Jane Borden joins the girls to discuss her book Cults Like Us, a gripping investigation into how cultic thinking is woven into the fabric of American life. Jane delves into the radical roots of early Protestant settlers, how the deep-rooted American mythology of a strong rebel cowboy who can save us from the bad guys makes us more susceptible to demagogues and authoritarians, and why pronatalism is just another form of doomsdayism.
They talk about how fear of the end of the world, fear of not being good enough, and fear of “the other” influence us. They discuss everything from the bootstraps myth to mass marketing to self-help empires, and how the promise of salvation has shaped the American psyche more than we like to admit.

SOURCES:
Jane Borden
Cults Like Us: Why Doomsday Thinking Drives America

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Megan Elizabeth Cox–not to be confused with our Meagan Elizabeth–shares how she first started Gwen Shamblin’s weight loss program as a child, when her mom began listening to the cassette tapes in the 90s. She opens up about what it was like growing up in a family that was fixated on weight loss, how it felt meeting Shamblin, the high-haired woman behind the voice, and how the program evolved into the Remnant Fellowship, a full-fledged church centered around skinniness as righteousness.
Megan tells the girls about the level of control the church had over her eating and even her thoughts, with Bible study sessions that required the members to weigh themselves, how she drifted in and out of the church during dark times in her life, and what made her finally realize she needed to leave the group for good.

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Journalist Claire Hoffman joins us again, this time to discuss her new book Sister, Sinner: the unbelievable true story of Aimee Semple McPherson, a glamorous Pentecostal preacher who pioneered entertainment evangelism. McPherson was so famous in the 1920s she could have been a Kardashian.
Claire talks about how the early televangelist used theatrics and mass media to build an empire around her preaching–only to mysteriously disappear in 1926, leading to one of the most notorious court cases of the time. The girls unpack early 20th century fame, faith, scandal, and the dangers of worshipping cultural icons.

SOURCES:
Sister, Sinner

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In Part 1 of our interview with journalist Claire Hoffman, Claire shares what it was like growing up in an Iowa trailer park community built around the Transcendental Meditation (or TM) movement and its charismatic leader, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi–whose followers included The Beatles. Claire shares what the daily routine was like in the TM community, how it felt believing every adult she knew could levitate, and the powerful mystique of Maharishi.
Plus, she tells how the fall of the Berlin Wall and her subscription to Cosmopolitan magazine helped lead to her eventual awakening about the guru being a mere mortal, and the book she wrote about that experience, Greetings From Utopia Park.

SOURCES:
Greetings From Utopia Park

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Attorney Carol Merchasin didn’t set out to expose cults, but after investigating allegations about a high-control Buddhist organization and discovering that the abuse had run more rampant than she’d imagined, she became a lawyer and focused her practice on getting justice for survivors of cults and abusive groups.

Carol discusses the legal ins and outs of suing cults and spiritual leaders, where American law stands in recognizing coercion and human trafficking, and why the differences in ideologies between high-control groups really don’t matter. Plus: the patterns and red flags she’s learned to spot, why spiritual language is often used to disguise harm, and what to do if you get sued by your group for speaking out.

SOURCES:

BITE MODEL of Authoritarian Control 

Heartwood Center

McAllister Olivarius Law

For pro bono legal help, look up your state bar association for a directory of pro bono attorneys.

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Artist and writer Akina Cox returns to share more about her experience growing up in the Unification Church (also known as the Moonies), its physical punishment rituals, and where the church stands now. The girls then transition from the topic of her particular cult to a discussion on the cult-like patterns of the current American political landscape, and how to approach political disagreements with loved ones.

Akina also reflects on her article for Salon, where she explores how the Trump administration employs many of the same tactics used by Reverend Moon, and how high-control groups tend to choose a group to scapegoat for their problems. They discuss the demonization of immigrants and trans folks, the realities of ICE kidnappings, and how the failures of political leadership effectively addressing income inequality created an opening for demagogues to thrive.

SOURCES:

Akina Cox

Salon

How to Talk to Your Republican Uncle

The Atlantic

ORGANIZATIONS FOR OUTREACH AND RESISTANCE:

Ktown For All

CHIRLA

Unión del Barrio

LA Tenants Union

National Day Laborer Organizing Network (NDLON)

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Artist and writer Akina Cox shares about her childhood growing up in the Unification Church, also known as the Moonies. They discuss the background of the church and its late leader Reverend Moon, how her parents both joined after hitchhiking in the 70s, and what it was like growing up in the group.

She shares how it felt participating in a mass wedding ceremony, moving to the border of North and South Korea, and the stark contrast between Reverend Moon’s lavish lifestyle and the unpaid labor demanded of members. Plus, how going to college sparked her first real doubts about the church, and the Unification Church’s surprising financial ties to American politics.

SOURCES:

Akina Cox

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Trust Me is the podcast that pulls back the curtain on cults, high-control groups and the psychology of belief. Hosted by cult survivors Lola Blanc and Meagan Elizabeth, the show features raw, first-hand accounts from people who’ve been manipulated, love-bombed and pulled into systems of control—and lived to tell the tale.

Each week, Lola and Meagan talk to people who’ve escaped, those still inside and the experts to unpack how extreme belief works. Listen to voices from inside the illusion and the truth that waited on the other side.

Trust Me joins the Exactly Right network on Wednesday, July 30. Follow the show now on the iHeartRadio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Trust Me has joined Exactly Right Media. Hosts Lola Blanc & Meagan Elizabeth will be back with new episodes on Wednesday, July 30th.

You’re a teenage girl in the late 60s, bouncing between communes, when a charismatic man and his group of young women welcome you with open arms. You were looking for a family, and now you’ve found one. In part one of an incredible interview, Dianne Lake, aka “Snake,” and her co-author Deborah Herman discuss growing up in 1960s counter-culture, the dark side of the sexual revolution, and what it was like becoming the youngest member of Charles Manson’s family. Stay tuned next week for part two, in which she tells Lola & Meagan how she learned about the murders! Original Airdate: 05/12/2021

Continue listening to Dianne Lake - The Manson Family, Part 2: The Tate-LaBianca Murders. (Original Airdate: 05/19/2021)

Subscribe on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. 

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