Toot or Boot brings you unfiltered conversations about work — straight from HR insiders who aren’t afraid to tell the truth. With a rotating crew of progressive HR leaders, we break down the latest news and trends to show what’s really happening and why it matters for your job. Whether you’re in HR or just trying to survive your 9-to-5, expect real talk, practical advice, and the occasional laugh to get you through the chaos of modern work.
To find out more, check out tootorboot.com
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When Disengagement Is Really Self-Protection
Saison 4 · Épisode 1
mardi 10 mars 2026 • Durée 42:07
Disengagement at work is often framed as an attitude problem. But what if it’s actually a nervous system response?
In this episode of Toot or Boot, Stacey Nordwall sits down with HR leader and psychology-trained strategist Erica Spitale to unpack the deeper forces behind workplace disengagement, trust, and emotional safety. Together they explore why employees withdraw when environments feel unsafe, how organizations misunderstand emotions at work, and why productivity without humanity simply doesn’t last.
The conversation digs into the complex reality of modern work: employees bringing global crises, economic stress, and personal uncertainty into the workplace while organizations attempt to maintain focus and output. Erica offers a powerful reframing — emotions are not distractions; they are data.
Stacey and Erica also examine the fragile nature of trust at work, how it forms (and collapses), and why trust is less about individuals and more about the conditions organizations create. Along the way they tackle the tension between emotional expression and professional boundaries, the myth of “political neutrality” at work, and the structural forces behind disengagement.
If you’ve ever wondered why employees seem checked out, why trust at work feels fragile, or how leaders can build healthier workplaces without sacrificing accountability, this conversation offers a more human framework for understanding what’s really happening.
Key Takeaways
Workplace disengagement is often a nervous system response to perceived threat, not laziness or apathy.
Employees disengage when they lack psychological safety, belonging, or trust in their environment.
Emotions at work are data points, revealing what matters and where friction exists.
Organizations frequently mislabel disengagement as an individual attitude problem instead of a systemic issue.
Productivity without acknowledging human needs cannot be sustained long-term.
Trust in the workplace is not an individual trait — it is an environmental outcome created by conditions.
Employees maintain multiple relationships at work: with their job, their team, and the organization.
Leaders must balance clear expectations with humane assumptions.
Emotional expression and professional boundaries can coexist — workplaces need space for both engagement and retreat.
During economic uncertainty, organizations should invest in developing existing employees rather than relying solely on hiring.
Timestamps
00:00 – Why the modern workplace feels emotionally heavy
02:00 – The idea of disengagement as a nervous system response
05:00 – Why disengagement is often misdiagnosed as an attitude problem
08:30 – Making space for emotions while maintaining workplace boundaries
12:00 – Why emotions at work provide valuable organizational data
17:00 – The myth of political neutrality in workplaces
19:00 – Why sustainable productivity requires humanity
23:00 – The complicated role of trust in organizations
28:00 – Trust as an environmental condition, not a personality trait
33:00 – AI hype, responsible leadership, and investing in existing employees
The ongoing trouble with SHRM
Saison 3 · Épisode 8
mardi 16 décembre 2025 • Durée 50:17
For decades, SHRM has been the institution shaping HR standards, HR certifications, and workplace policy. But as political tensions rise, protections erode, and credibility questions grow louder, HR leaders are asking a new question: What happens when the largest HR organization in the world stops representing workers — and starts representing itself?
In this packed, no-nonsense episode of Toot or Boot originally recorded in November 2024, Stacey Nordwall sits down with Sarika Lamont, Tracie Sponenberg, and Morgan Williams to unpack the long, complicated history of SHRM’s decisions and the ripple effects those choices have had on the HR profession, marginalized employees, and federal policy.
The group traces SHRM’s evolution from “the only place HR could go” to an entity criticized for political alliances, removing equity from DEI, paywalling pandemic resources, and most recently, found responsible for discriminating and retaliating against a former employee.
They also dive into something that matters even more: the rise of people-first HR communities that filled the vacuum when SHRM didn’t — and what HR practitioners can rely on now.
Whether you’re SHRM-certified, SHRM-skeptical, or SHRM-conflicted, this conversation gives you the context you need to understand what’s at stake for HR, workers, and the future of workplace policy.
Key takeaways
SHRM’s decisions shape HR policy, employment law, and workplace norms worldwide.
The organization’s political alignment has shifted sharply — and visibly — in recent years.
SHRM paywalled critical COVID resources at the height of crisis.
Removing the “E” from DEI sent a damaging message to marginalized workers.
Johnny Taylor’s public stances contradict SHRM’s stated neutrality.
SHRM’s lobbying often benefits employers, not employees or practitioners.
The ongoing discrimination lawsuit highlights internal cultural issues.
HR’s community-driven response during COVID created better models for learning and support.
Alternatives — Peak HR, Hacking HR, Safe Space, Troop HR, and others — now offer richer, people-centered resources.
HR leaders must stay informed because SHRM’s policy influence impacts workers, equity, and the future of the profession.
Timestamps
02:00 — How each guest’s SHRM journey shaped their perspective
07:00 — The SHRM–HRCI split and political entanglements
12:00 — SHRM’s silence after George Floyd and LGBTQ+ cases
16:00 — The COVID paywall and the turning point in trust
20:00 — Johnny Taylor’s political positioning and the Labor Secretary shortlist
25:00 — Why SHRM’s power matters for HR and workers
33:00 — The danger of “civility” replacing equity
40:00 — How HR community spaces filled the gap
50:00 — Alternatives to SHRM and where HR is going next
SHRM controversy, HR policy, Johnny Taylor, DEI equity removed, SHRM lawsuit, HR community, workplace politics, HR certification, lobbying impact, alternatives to SHRM
The cost of DEI rollbacks, the new employer-employee relationship , and the human cost of content moderation
Saison 2 · Épisode 21
mardi 27 mai 2025 • Durée 32:58
This episode dives into why some CEOs are paying the price for walking back DEI, how the employer-employee relationship has fundamentally shifted, and the horrifying conditions faced by Meta’s outsourced content moderators. From strategic miscalculations to moral failures, we examine what these stories tell us about leadership, labor, and the values that shape today’s workplaces.
Connect:
With Anessa:
On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anessafike/
On her website: https://www.fikeandco.com/
Her book: https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-revolution-of-work-fuck-the-patriarchy-and-the-workplace-it-built-anessa-fike/21206822?ean=9781961347540&next=t
With Stacey on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/staceynordwall/
Articles:
How some corporations miscalculated the impact of abandoning DEI
Has the Labor Market changed or have employees?
Meta faces Ghana lawsuits over impact of extreme content on moderators
A hard job market for new college grads, the cost of declining employee wellbeing, a bold child care policy
Saison 2 · Épisode 20
mardi 20 mai 2025 • Durée 27:00
In this episode, we explore Cake’s Body’s bold $36K childcare stipend, why the job market is suddenly so brutal for college grads, and what the WEF’s new report reveals about the steep decline in employee well-being. We break down what these headlines signal about where workplaces are headed—and what HR needs to be thinking about next.
Connect:
With Anessa:
On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anessafike/
On her website: https://www.fikeandco.com/
Her book: https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-revolution-of-work-fuck-the-patriarchy-and-the-workplace-it-built-anessa-fike/21206822?ean=9781961347540&next=t
With Stacey on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/staceynordwall/
Articles:
Cakes Body’s $36K Child Care Credit Leads the Way in Affordable Child Care Planning for Employees
Something Alarming Is Happening to the Job Market
World Economic Forum Warns Employee Well-Being Is Declining—and Costing Businesses Trillions
The workplace triple threat: Disengagement, RTOs, and Fake AI Applicants
Saison 2 · Épisode 19
mardi 13 mai 2025 • Durée 33:26
This week, we're diving into three concerning workplace trends: First, employee engagement is declining sharply, with managers under 35 and female managers leading this downward slide—potentially because they're caught in middle management roles with high responsibility but little decision-making power. Meanwhile, BNY Mellon is increasing its office mandate from three to four days weekly by September 2025, again bringing up the question of if RTOs are actually solving the challenges businesses are having. Finally, tech CEOs are raising alarms about candidates using AI to fake their way through remote job interviews—with Gartner projecting that by 2028, one in four global job applicants will be using AI-generated profiles, posing serious security risks beyond simple resume fraud.
Connect:
With Lee Rubin on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rubinl/
With Stacey Nordwall on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/staceynordwall/
Articles:
Employee Engagement is Dropping and Managers are leading the slide
BNY asks employees to return to office four days a week by September
Fake job seekers are flooding U.S. companies that are hiring for remote positions, tech CEOs say
The path from CPO to COO, employee choice in RTOs, and job ads for narcissists?
Saison 2 · Épisode 18
mardi 6 mai 2025 • Durée 21:06
This week, we discuss why HR professionals are naturally positioned for C-suite operations roles, examining the journey of Hinge's Angel Franklin from CPO to COO and why this transition shouldn't be considered unusual. We also dive into MongoDB's approach to hybrid work models, and fascinating research on how job ad language may inadvertently attract candidates with narcissistic tendencies and what this means for recruitment strategies.
Connect:
with Steven Huang on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thestevenhuang/
or sign up for his newsletter: https://setthesetting.substack.com/
with Stacey Nordwall on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/staceynordwall/
Articles:
Why it’s not far-fetched for HR pros to dream of being COO
Giving employees a choice when to be in the office
Why is your boss a narcissist? Blame the job ad that got them hired
Target's DEI rollbacks hit their bottom line, LGBTQ discrimination on the rise, and quiet cracking
Saison 2 · Épisode 17
mardi 29 avril 2025 • Durée 21:58
This week, we dive into the real-world impacts of DEI rollbacks, workplace discrimination, and employee disengagement. We examine how Target faced boycotts and significant business impacts after eliminating DEI initiatives recently met with Rev. Al Sharpton to address the impacts of boycotts. We'll also explore troubling new research showing increased workplace discrimination against LGBTQ+ employees amid a record year of anti-LGBTQ+ legislation. Finally, we discuss the emerging concept of "quiet cracking" and what it reveals about the current state of workplace wellbeing and employee engagement.
Connect:
with Steven Huang on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thestevenhuang/
or sign up for his newsletter: https://setthesetting.substack.com/
with Stacey Nordwall on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/staceynordwall/
Articles:
Rev Al Sharpton meets with Target CEO over halting of DEI initiative
LGBTQ+ workers report more discrimination, less happiness at work
What is ‘quiet cracking’? Worker disengagement has a new name
Workplace Accessibility: How policy changes like RTOs disproportionately impact employees with disabilities
Saison 2 · Épisode 16
mardi 22 avril 2025 • Durée 56:28
This week, we welcome Nathan Chung, Jessica Donahue, and Greer Procich for a critical conversation about workplace accessibility and inclusion. With collective experience in HR, cybersecurity, and disability advocacy, our panel examines how current workplace policies often overlook the experiences of disabled and neurodivergent employees.
The conversation explores three major topics affecting the workplace:
The surge in return-to-office mandates and their disproportionate impact on people with disabilities which is reversing progress that had been made in employment for people with disabilities.
The potentially devastating implications of Texas v. Becerra, a lawsuit challenging Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act, the ripple effects of which could undermine fundamental disability rights in workplaces.
Recent changes at the EEOC, including the halting of sexual orientation and gender identity discrimination claims and the abandonment of existing lawsuits - as the EEOC continues to operate without a quorum.
Our guests offer advice and insight for HR professionals navigating these challenges and advocating for truly inclusive workplaces.
Learn more about Rethink Ability: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/greerprocich_rethinking-disability-from-red-tape-to-real-activity-7310716858263908354-uJxk
Connect:
Nathan Chung:
on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nc808/
on the Disability Disrupted podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@DisabilityDisrupted
Jessica Donahue:
on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessica-e-donahue/
on her website: https://www.adjunctleadership.com/
Greer Procich:
on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/greerprocich/
Stacey Nordwall:
on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/staceynordwall/
Articles:
5 years into the remote work boom, the return-to-office push is stronger than ever—here's why
‘Dangerous’ lawsuit could imperil disability rights, advocates say
Andrea Lucas renominated to EEOC, pledges ‘evenhanded’ civil rights enforcement
Five years of remote work changed workplace accessibility. Employees with disabilities will feel its loss.
Meta's "do not rehire" list, the decline of workplace friendships, and HR teams too stretched to action employee feedback
Saison 2 · Épisode 15
mardi 15 avril 2025 • Durée 26:19
In this episode, we analyze new Glassdoor research suggesting employees are increasingly deprioritizing workplace relationships, questioning whether this shift stems from broader social disconnection or reflects changing priorities in a hybrid world. We also discuss a revealing Perceptyx survey showing that while 95% of HR teams are collecting employee feedback, only 27% feel confident they can act on it—highlighting the growing burnout crisis among HR professionals who are stretched too thin. Finally, we explore the controversy surrounding Meta's "do not rehire" list, examining the tension between standard HR offboarding practices and transparency in employment relationships.
Connect:
Kim Minnick: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kim-minnick/
Stacey Nordwall: https://www.linkedin.com/in/staceynordwall/
Articles:
Employees care less and less about workplace relationships, new research finds
Stressed HR teams say they can’t take action on employee feedback
Meta keeps secret ‘do not rehire’ list of ex-employees — despite exceptional performance reviews: report
Tokyo's 4-day workweek, resignation by proxy, and a low status desk
Saison 2 · Épisode 14
mardi 8 avril 2025 • Durée 15:37
Kim Minnick joins this week as we dive into three fascinating workplace trends from around the globe. We examine Tokyo's move toward a four-day workweek aimed at addressing Japan's population crisis and work-life balance challenges, while questioning why it takes demographic emergencies to implement family-friendly policies. We also explore the "resignation by proxy" phenomenon emerging in Japan's hierarchical corporate culture. Finally, we unpack a thought-provoking UK tribunal case where an estate agent successfully sued after being assigned a lower-status desk, revealing how seemingly minor workplace arrangements can significantly impact employee roles and retention. Join us as we examine these developments and their implications for the evolving modern workplace.
Connect:
Kim Minnick: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kim-minnick/
Stacey Nordwall: https://www.linkedin.com/in/staceynordwall/
Articles:
Tokyo is turning to a 4-day workweek in a desperate attempt to help Japan shed its unwanted title of ‘world’s oldest population’
Resignation By Proxy: A New Workplace Trend Leaders Should Watch
Senior staff can sue if given ‘low status’ desk, UK tribunal rules
