Women of Strength, we have a truly inspiring story for you today! Ashley joins us from the Liverpool/Sydney area in Australia and shares her VBAC with an inverted T special scar and extension story. During her first Cesarean, Ashley’s OB mentioned that she had only performed that kind of incision one other time in her entire career and that Ashley would never have a vaginal birth.

Ashley did not find out the actual circumstances around her first Cesarean until she requested her operative notes during her second pregnancy. In spite of what she was told, her heart longed for a VBAC. She committed to doing all she could to try and find a VBAC-supportive provider as long as it was medically safe to do so. 

Ashley went into spontaneous labor and utilized the tools available to help her baby rotate from a posterior position. She and her provider both stayed patient, trusted the process, and after pushing for 20 minutes, her baby girl was earthside!

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Full Transcript under Episode Details 

Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. How are you today? I hope you are doing amazing. We have our friend, Ashley, with us today and you guys, she is from Australia. It has been so crazy. I don’t know why I cannot understand time. We were talking about how we literally had to Google, “What time will it be in Australia if it’s this time in Utah?” It was such a challenge to get this scheduled but I’m so grateful for Ashley for taking the time out of her Monday morning recording with us today so welcome, Ashley. Thank you for being here. 

Ashley: Thank you so much for having me on. Like I was saying to you before, The VBAC Link was so invaluable to me with all of the research and the statistics and just trying to hear other people’s stories to help me change my mindset to get through it so I’m really excited to add to that with my story as well. 

Meagan: Me too. Your story has a little extra tidbit to it. Something that we know happens because we’ve got lots of stories on them as well. We actually haven’t had one for a few minutes and yours is a special scar. You had an inverted T with an extension. Do you want to share with our listeners exactly what that means? We’ve had some J scars. There are all different special scars. An extension we know goes past the initial cut or incision. But tell us about the T. 

Ashley: Yeah, so I actually only found out after the surgery that it was an inverted T but I didn’t know what that entailed so I had to do a bit of my own research especially when I fell pregnant the second time to know what was involved with that. Yeah, it was really scary just to see that I had a vertical cut in the middle. Obviously, you’ve got your normal horizontal cut–

Meagan: Low transverse, yep. 

Ashley: Yeah, that’s right and then through the center going vertically I had a 3-centimeter cut which was obviously riskier. A lot of providers said no to me when I started to look into it when I was pregnant the second time and started to have a look to get somebody to take me on. Even the public hospital that I had originally gone to with my son actually said, “No, you will have to have a Cesarean if you come through us.” 

In Australia, they can’t really say no to you in a public hospital if that’s what your wishes are, but I wanted somebody who was going to be supportive of me and the whole journey. So yeah. That’s where I come to going private instead and having an obstetrician this time which I know is quite rare with VBACs. You find a lot of people who won’t take you on. I had a really amazing experience if anyone is listening from Sydney. I’m in Liverpool and my provider was Brian Hollis and he’s extremely VBAC friendly. He was amazing. 

He had actually somebody with an inverted T before. 

Meagan: Really? Okay, so he had also seen one. Definitely there are so many providers out there who do support VBAC and then they have a special scar patient come in and they are like, “I really like VBAC but I don’t know. I’ve never seen this before.” But we know it exists so I can’t wait for you to share more in your story and about him maybe because we know it’s so hard. It’s so hard to find these providers. It’s hard enough to just find a VBAC-supportive provider in general and then that’s something unique that Australia does that at least here in Utah we don’t do with the private and public. 

We just have this hospital and then we have the birth centers and then we have the home births. There is not the dramatic difference in the hospital system like in your case. Okay. Oh my gosh. I’m so excited to dive it. I do have a Review of the Week. I’m so excited that I’m talking so fast. 

I do have a Review of the Week and then we’ll get into those stories. Like you said, you didn’t find out until after. That’s is the case so many times. They don’t even say during. We’ll go into this as well if they went into why but sometimes there’s not even a clear answer to, Okay, I now have this different, unique scar but why? We’re going to get into that. 

We have this review from xxooxx and it says, “Informative, supportive, and empowering.” It says, “After having a C-section that I certainly did not want and that I did not know was not necessary, I knew nothing about VBACs. I had dove head-first into this podcast and on top of learning so much, I became informed and empowered to get my VBAC which I got. Thank you, Julie and Meagan, for loving your listeners and pouring your knowledge and support into us. What you do matters and I will always recommend The VBAC Link.”

Well, thank you, xxooxx, for that amazing review. Congratulations on your VBAC and I couldn’t agree more. This podcast really is so empowering and so informative like you were even just saying. I think a lot of this comes from the storytellers and the moms and the Women of Strength. This is just so amazing. I definitely suggest sharing this podcast to anybody. If they’re not a VBAC mom, if they’re a first-time mom or a second-time mom, I definitely suggest that because I truly believe that the stories on this podcast will help people avoid a Cesarean in general. 

Meagan: Okay, cute Ashley. You found out after so how did this first birth lead up to this inverted T with an extension? 

Ashley: Yeah, so I guess my story starts in 2020. I had a low-risk pregnancy and other than being sick the whole time but giving birth in March 2021 with my son and it was super traumatic. It took a long time to heal physically and mentally from it but my waters broke on their own two days before my due date. I had gone into the public hospital I was booked in for. I had seen the same midwife the whole pregnancy which was really fantastic. Midwives are amazing and just empowering telling a first-time mom, “You can do this.” 

I had no signs that anything would be wrong. So as usual, I went back home and then the contractions started that night. They started to really ramp up and become heavier so that night at about midnight or so, I tried to get some sleep. I wanted to stay home as long as possible. 

At 3:30 AM, I had to go to the hospital. I was just beyond. The pain in my back was just– yeah. I didn’t know if this was normal but in the end, when I got to the hospital, I was only 3 centimeters dilated. I had used the gas and the TENS to get through the contractions but he was posterior which I was nervous about. I didn’t know as many things as I knew in the second pregnancy in terms of Spinning Babies and trying to get into good positioning. 

With my son, I don’t know how it happened but he was posterior and the pain was just unbearable. 

Meagan: And it happens. We learn through pelvic dynamic courses and things that sometimes really truly, babies have to enter in a posterior position before they get into an anterior position and sometimes that means back labor. It is very, very intense. It really is intense. 

Ashley: Yeah. Yeah, it was. At this point, it went on for a few hours and I just actually couldn’t deal with it anymore so I had the epidural which turned out to be quite a good thing for me. It was relieving of some of that back pain but I still had felt a lot of it through it so it’s almost like it didn’t seem to work as much as I thought it would at that point. The contractions through my back were still there. 

We tried to do some things before I had the epidural to get into a better position, but it wasn’t working for me. Every contraction, my son’s heart rate would drop and the midwife was really good in just letting me keep going. “Let’s see. Let’s see.” But as soon as the doctor on call knew that it had been quite a few hours came into check me, “You’ve got meconium in your waters. You have to have a Cesarean.” 

I was just devastated because I had really thought that this was just going to be a great, empowering birth. I was so excited to give birth and to hear that it wasn’t going to go the way that I had intended, I was devastated and crying. But yeah, he was in a compound position as well so he did have his hand up past his head. There were a few things going against me in that time. 

But despite all of this, they gave me a little bit more time to keep going and I did get to 9 centimeters. I was in a position where they thought, “Okay.” My midwife was pushing, “Let’s try. Let’s try and see if she can continue and maybe we can try some repositioning to get him out,” but the doctor was, “No. Cesarean. There is meconium in the waters. Let’s get him out.” 

I was so exhausted. It had been 34 hours from the time my waters broke and I just gave in. When I was in that vulnerable position of just so much pain and didn’t know any better, I just said, “Okay, I’ll give in and I’ll have the Cesarean.” 

During the Cesarean preparing, I heard the surgeon say to her assistant, “She’s 9 centimeters,” and explaining it and the assistant said, “Should we just see? The head is almost there.” There was a little bit of whispering and then it all just stopped. I was just laying there terrified like, What’s going on? They’re talking about how far I’ve progressed and that they were concerned about me having a Cesarean.

Meagan: Your baby was so low. 

Ashley: Yes. I found out later that he was so low that they had to push him back up during the Cesarean. 

Meagan: Did they push him back up vaginally? 

Ashley: Yes. Yeah. 

Meagan: They do that sometimes where they go in vaginally where one doctor is pulling from the other end and one doctor is pushing from the other end vaginally 

Ashley: Yes. Obviously the recovery is like you gave birth, isn’t it? 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Ashley: Yeah. The doctor panicked and I was in such a blur that my husband and I actually debriefed afterward and he said, “I’ve never been so terrified.” A team of doctors just flew in. She was making calls. Obviously, when she started to begin the Cesarean, she saw that she couldn’t grab him. He was too low and that’s why they had to cut vertically but nothing was explained to us. We were just lying there terrified. The tarp was up. 

Meagan: They were doing their thing. 

Ashley: Yeah. And with our first child, we didn’t know what to expect anyway but my husband just said there were all of these people who just flew in and there were all of these conversations and whispers. 

Not long later, he emerged. The tarp wasn’t lowered and he wasn’t breathing. He started breathing once they transferred him to resus, but that time was the longest time. 

Meagan: Absolutely. It feels like 5 hours. 

Ashley: Absolutely, yeah. I don’t even know how long it was but it felt like forever. By the time that they placed him on me for the standard amount of time I suppose, I was in just a shock that the spinal block had made me have the shakes. It was just not what I was hoping for. 

Meagan: Anticipated, yeah. 

Ashley: Yeah. They wheeled him away with my husband. They went and then I was to go separately into recovery. Before I did that, the doctor then lowered the tarp and said to me, “You will never have a vaginal birth. I’ve only had to do what I just did twice in my career.” 

Meagan: Oh wow. 

Ashley: Yeah, and just so brutal. Just the shock of that was like, I didn’t want this either. It was just really hard to hear because I just had this baby not how I had anticipated and to hear that for the future was a big shock to me. 

Going into recovery and then later on that initial bond with my son, I was just in so much pain that it was hard to hold him. It really took a long time to recover from it. The next day, she did come and talk to me. She said that she had to cut an extension and cut an inverted T incision of 3 centimeters to get him out. She said, “Yeah. I’m so lucky it wasn’t worse.” 

Meagan: Wow. 

Ashley: Yeah, then she left and I just had to go home and start my new life as a mum with just this recovery. I could hardly walk. As a Cesarean, it’s already painful, but I had all of this pain and it left me with an awful feeling mentally as well. I just obviously adored my son. I was so happy to be a mum but that lead-up and then just bang. That’s how you’re giving birth, it was just a shock. 

Yeah, so that’s what happened. The details of it I found out with the second pregnancy. I didn’t know afterward that was our only conversation we had. I didn’t get any discharge notes with that information. It wasn’t until I was pregnant the second time that I requested my hospital notes. 

Meagan: So important. So important to do. I really encourage anybody whether you were at one, two, different hospitals and all of the things, request your records because you really do learn a lot about what really transpired that day in your op-reports. 

Ashley: Yeah, definitely. 

Yeah, so I guess that brings me to now with pregnancy. A lot better, a lot happier result but I fell pregnant in May 2023. Both my pregnancies were normal, and low-risk. I was a little sick and I actually got quite dizzy and things like that but nothing that was going to impact me from giving the VBAC a try. 

Like I mentioned, I had gone to a few different providers and when I had my pelvic floor checks and things after my first son, I spoke to the doctors there and said, “Would it be possible to have a VBAC here?” They said no. That was something that was a big shock to me. I didn’t expect that I would have to look for somebody. Yeah. 

That was a big shock. I found out through some of my friends about this OB who was quite VBAC-supportive and I knew I wanted to give it a try and ultimately, if I did have to have the Cesarean, I would be okay with it but I just wanted to try. 

I heard about this OB and had an appointment with him. My husband and I after the initial appointment were instantly comfortable with him. He was so supportive. He said to me, “Ashley, is this what you want to do?” I said, “Yeah. I really would like to try.” He goes, “Well, that’s what we’re going to do.”

Meagan: I love that.

Ashley: Yeah. I was just like, “Oh my goodness. He’s so honest about this is how it’s going to be.” “If you want to give it a go, these would be my conditions,” which were to have monitoring which I was fine with. I still was a little bit nervous. I know that some people would rather have no monitoring and just let your body tell you, but with the special scar, I thought if there are any signs of rupture, I really want to know.

Meagan: That’s actually a very common request from a provider in a VBAC situation. They usually want continuous monitoring. You can fight not to have continuous monitoring, but that’s a very normal request. On top of VBAC, having a special scar, it’s even more of a normal request for a provider to say, “Yeah, let’s totally do this. I just want to monitor things,” because we do know that one of the signs of uterine rupture is fetal distress. 

Ashley: Yeah, that’s right. He was just really supportive about, “Let’s put a birth plan together and see what you want to do and I’ll see what is the best thing to do.”

During the pregnancy, I tried to do as much listening to podcasts. That’s how I came across your page and Instagram just constantly looking for information. It’s actually a beautiful Facebook group called, Special Scars, Special Hope. Being in Australia, I was just like, this is global. There were so many amazing women on there offering support and advice. There was even information on there– statistics. Yeah. 

I did a little bit of research but I didn’t want to overwhelm myself. I just wanted to have a really strong mindset. There were times of doubt and, Maybe I’ll just book the Cesarean, but then I thought, No, this is what I want. Let’s give it a try. My OB was really supportive from the beginning about, Let’s just see how we go. 

He retrieved my notes and he found out that all of those details where they had to push him back up vaginally and they had to do this extension cut and all those kind of things. It was good that he was prepared. He knew and I just tried to stay as active as I could through the pregnancy. I did the dates at the end. I did the raspberry leaf tea and the vitamins. I just was always on the ball. I tried to do as much as I could to prepare myself physically, but yeah.

The conditions with my OB were that we said I would be giving birth at the public hospital that is next to the private. It was a different one to before because of any emergencies and that kind of thing. He would have to do some examinations every hour or so which I was also fine about. 

Obviously, I couldn’t use water. That was one thing I really wanted. I wanted to be able to get into the tub. 

Meagan: Birth in the water. 

Ashley: Yeah, or even just use it for pain management. 

He said, “No, because of the monitoring,” so that was one thing I was ugh about. I thought, When I do go into labor and it starts, I will try and use water at home before I get to the hospital. My husband was so supportive of me and said, “I will help you. Let’s do this. If you want to use the water–” he was a little bit nervous about, “When they start to ramp up, we really need to leave” because the hospital was about 30 minutes away. We just wanted to be at a point that no later than 5 minutes or so apart and they wanted me in. 

Meagan: Well, and you had already made it to 9 centimeters before so even though you’d be a first-time mom pushing baby out vaginally, your cervix is not as much like a first-time mom. 

Ashley: Exactly right. That was something that got me through the whole labor. I just kept saying to myself, My body knows how to do this. I’ve gotten here before. I know what to do. That was just something in times of doubt, I would just keep saying. 

But yes, my OB said at any point that he was concerned, we’d have the discussion and if anything was to go wrong, we’d be calling a C-section straightaway. I was fine about that. I came in at 39 weeks. Sorry, I booked at 39 weeks for a stretch and sweep but I got COVID. 

Meagan: Oh no. 

Ashley: My whole family all got COVID and I was just like, “No.” I couldn’t hardly breathe. I was congested and everything. I’m not going into labor like this. I’ve done that much preparation. So I just tried to rest and get better. It was put out until 40 weeks. I had until 41 weeks then he said we would be having a discussion about a Cesarean. He didn’t want me to go too long with the scar. 

So 40 weeks, my due date. I came in for a stretch and sweep. I came home to relax after, nothing. Nothing at all happened. No pain, nothing. Two days later, I started to have some mild period pains. I carried on the day with my son. I just kept going but I had been attending acupuncture weekly from 36 weeks. I had another session at 6:30 that night and by 9:30, the pain really started to ramp up. I decided to try and sleep but by the time I had a shower, laid down in bed, and at 10:00, they were coming faster, stronger, and I just knew I wanted to stay home as long as possible. 

I got into the shower then I did some type of positioning that I could get comfortable with the TENS machine on but I knew the pain of the back and I just knew that this baby had to be posterior again because the feeling was just like I had experienced it yesterday. 

Meagan: Deja vu. 

Ashley: Yeah. I just said to my husband, “She’s posterior. I just know it.” 

We left for the hospital at 1:30 in the morning. We got there and I had to walk a really long distance from the car to the birthing unit. It was just so odd. There was no one there, no wheelchairs for me, just no one. 

Meagan: Huh. 

Ashley: Yeah, I was so shocked. I was like, What’s going on? I just said, “This is going to help me progress.” Any little obstacle that would come up, I just said, “I’m going to be able to do this.” Helping I think in the end actually helped my labor progress.

Meagan: I was thinking that. This is actually probably really good. That’s a lot of movement for the pelvis and good for the baby to rotate. 

Ashley: I was having these contractions that I had to get on the floor to breathe them out and rock through them. It took us a long time to get from the car to the birthing unit because I had to keep stopping but when I did get there, they were like, “Wow. You are almost 5 centimeters. You have progressed really quickly.” 

Meagan: Just like you wanted. 

Ashley: Yeah. The contractions then were so weird. It was like I had to push but it was too early to push. She was posterior. It was confirmed so that pressure was just such an odd labor. I didn’t have that at all even though I was posterior with my son too. This one was like an intense pushing feeling that I couldn’t control. 

Then yeah. Once I had discovered that she was posterior too, I just tried to get into some good positioning. I had done a lot of research about posterior because I was terrified of it happening again. I got on the ball trying to rock back and forth and my husband was such a great support because we had done a little bit of information reading about this pressure point on the lower back. 

Meagan: The sacrum?

Ashley: Yes, that’s it so anytime I had these contractions, he would just push on there and I swear by that. I have to say more than the TENS machine, more than anything, that got me through that labor. But yeah. 

At one stage, I sat on the toilet to try and help with the pressure of this pushing and my waters broke. Yeah. That really ramped up from there. I was 6 centimeters at that point and it was unbearable. I couldn’t take it anymore. I asked for the epidural and the midwife was like, “Are you sure you want to do that? You said you didn’t want to.” I just knew that I had to do it. I couldn’t take it any longer. I was at that point where I was asking, “Just wheel me in. I’ll just have the Cesarean.” I didn’t want that. I wanted to keep trying so I had the epidural and I fell asleep. 

It was just like my body needed that. 

Meagan: Yeah. Rest and relaxation can really be the best tool in labor. Even in early labor, we are so excited and want to keep going but rest and relaxation. 

Ashley: I was so tired, yeah. I just relaxed. My body completely relaxed and I fell asleep for about an hour. At that point, my OB came in to see me and measured me and discovered that baby had turned while I was sleeping and I was 10 centimeters. 

In that hour, I had progressed that quickly. He looked at me and said, “Ashley, you’re having your VBAC.” He said, “You’re going to push this baby out. Within a half hour or so, this baby will be here.” I just was in pure– I’ve got the feeling all over again. I just was so in a pure disbelief. I was just so happy and I just said to my husband, “We’ve done it. This is it. This is the moment that I really wanted.” 

Yeah. It’s making me emotional all over again. I pushed for about 20 minutes under his guidance. I still had feeling and control in my legs because I didn’t have the epidural at full dose so that really helped and within 20 minutes, my baby girl was born.

And just that feeling of pure joy and pure connection, that bond was just immediate. Pride, shock. 

Meagan: It was just all of it. 

Ashley: When they laid her on my chest, I will never forget my husband– the pride he had in me. Yeah, it was just beautiful and it was truly empowering. It was a beautiful moment. It’s just something you never forget. She’s 12 weeks now and I just relive that moment over and over. 

But yeah, it was my healing birth. Yeah, it was beautiful. It was everything that I had hoped for. Just shock, really because it was such a different experience to the emergency that I had with my son. 

I had that golden hour. She wasn’t taken away from me like my son was. They gave me that time with her and it was just pure disbelief in a beautiful way. 

Yeah, so that’s it. I recovered so much quicker and I think for me, that chapter of my life closed. It was just a beautiful way to really celebrate what birthing should be like and how I should feel afterward. You know, that bond that you should have. Yeah. That’s me. 

Meagan: I felt all of the emotions as you were sharing it and I know that I get an extra advantage because I can see your face and I can see you get teary. Oh, just to see it in your face. That moment is amazing when you realize you’ve done it and it is so overwhelming in all of the ways but holy cow, I am so happy for you. I am so glad that you were able to find the support because it’s just so hard. It’s so hard and you were even told– you hadn’t even met your baby yet really and were told, “Just to let you know, you will never have a baby vaginally.” 

To even be told that in that space, that in itself is so overwhelming and being told, “No. No one here is going to support you. No one.” When you are proof along with so many other Women of Strength who have had special scars and gone on to have a vaginal birth that it is possible and you do not have to but when you’re in that vulnerable state, I can just picture my own C-sections in an OR with the drape up and the bright lights and the beepings and if I were told that I would never have a baby vaginally again, I would already be in that emotional intimate space and vulnerable where I could have and many people could be like, Okay and then just never look past it and that was it. I’ll never deliver vaginally. 

But that’s where I think this podcast just is so important for people to listen and hear these stories that you may be told something and that may be true. That really may be the best choice in the future, right? It may be medically best or emotionally best but it doesn’t mean it is always what your fate has to be for the rest of your life when having a baby. 

Ashley: Yeah, and when I was told that and then I fell pregnant, I thought to myself, Okay, if that is what is medically necessary, I will do that. I just want my baby here naturally and safely. If it isn’t the way that I had hoped then that’s okay. At one point, I even looked at the maternal-assisted Cesarean and I had that discussion with my OB. He said, “Yep Ashley, if you decide you’re going to have the Cesarean elective, I’ll do that for you.” He’s like, “I will make it beautiful for you. I can play music you like. I’ll do whatever you like. It will be different from the first.” 

I said to myself, Okay. That is an option if I just feel that. 

Meagan: That’s a good plan B. 

Ashley: Yeah, that’s right. Exactly. He said if we call it early enough and there are no signs of rupturing, “I can still do that for you.” I still felt really comfortable going in that no matter what, this would hopefully be a better experience than what I had. But yeah, you’re right. There’s almost this stigma that C-sections, especially with special scars, that your body failed. I wanted to break the mold on that that bodies aren’t broken. I almost left my first baby coming home with him and I just looked at him and loved him and adored him but I also felt to myself, That’s not how I wanted to bond with you by laying here and I can’t move. 

I felt like my body was broken or it had let me down and this time around, I just believed in myself. I believed in my body and I said to myself, “Your mindset is everything. Going in, this mindset is how I’m going to birth this baby and get through it.” Birthing is incredible and I feel like we should feel incredible afterward. 

Meagan: Absolutely. Birth is incredible and it really is incredible no matter what, but the experience really does matter. We hear the whole “safe mom, safe baby” but of course, duh. That experience really, really counts and it sticks with us really for the rest of our lives. I mean, my oldest is going to be 13 in just a few months and I still remember her birth. My other is 10 and I remember her birth and of course, my VBAC baby I remember his birth and those are sticking with me. They are sticking with me and it’s just I love that your provider was like, “Listen. I’m going to support here and if it goes here, I’m still going to support you and no matter what, we are going to make this a better experience for you.” 

I love that your provider saw the better experience as an important part. 

Ashley: Yeah. I’m paying for him and his expertise. But I almost felt like he just wanted me to be happy. For him, it was like, “I can see your pain. I want you to be happy this time around.” We felt that from the initial appointment. It was more than just, “I’m paying for you. You have to do this.” It was like, “Help me get a better experience for you. What do you want? What can I do?” That was so important to me so it was wonderful. It was really important to me to acknowledge him as well because he was such an amazing support. 

Meagan: Yes. I’m so happy for you. I’m so happy for you. I do just want to mention that group again, you guys. Special Scars, Special Hope on Facebook. What kinds of things did you see in your experience in that group?

Ashley: It’s just hearing other people’s stories because I would see VBAC stories and I was like, Yes, 100%. I need to do this and I need to do that. It’s got that little bit of a fear factor with it because it is a special scar and not that many people attempt it. So to have a group of women globally who do attempt it and just empower each other like, “Hey, I had an amazing experience. This is what I did,” that was just invaluable to me taking on all of this advice. Quite a lot of these women are in the U.S. and they do talk about how providers can either be for you or against you and just write you off completely. 

It is similar here too. There were quite a few who said, “No way.” They don’t want that liability so yeah, it was just really great to have that group with such amazing, brave women who are going out there and sharing their story on there because it helps people like me who are like, Look, it can happen. It’s rare, but it’s not impossible. That group is amazing. I encourage anybody who has had all of these different types of scars on there, not just inverted T. There are people who have had inverted J’s and extensions. So anything a little bit special. 

Meagan: Yes. I was going to go over the C-section incision types. We’ve got the low transverse which is considered the safest way to VBAC having a low, boring, low transverse. But then we have a low vertical which means they cut lower in the abdominal segment and it’s vertical up and down. Then we have classical which is higher and sometimes we have classical scars when maybe a baby is very preterm, very small and the baby can come out that way, multiples, or maybe if a baby is transverse but it’s earlier on or something like that, they may have to go higher. 

Then there is inverted T and like I said, inverted J’s and then we have extensions on all of these. There have even been low transverse with an extension where it can go further or that’s where it goes into that J. Yeah, there are just so many different types and honestly, the statistics are not that powerful out there. There are not a ton and I don’t know. I would say there’s not a ton of really solid concrete. There are some but they are smaller. 

Ashley: Yeah, really hard. I didn’t want to overwhelm myself with statistics and things. A lot of people in that group share the rupture risks and the statistics and what they throw at you, these OBs are, “You’ve got a 20% risk of rupturing,” that would turn anybody away. I just knew from women in this group that I had just glanced over seeing that it’s not that high. Don’t let anyone tell you it’s that high. Obviously, there are situations when you need to have the Cesarean because it is unsafe, but in my case, I knew that it wasn’t a 20% rupture risk. I knew that there was definitely less and mine was 3 centimeters. It can be bigger than that obviously, but when I had spoken to my OB, he said, “It is 3 centimeters but in the span of your whole labor progressing, 3 centimeters is not a big deal.”

Meagan: That’s pretty small. 

Ashley: Yeah, it’s pretty small so even just hearing that, it was like, “Wow, you are telling me something different than all of these other people.” It’s good to back yourself up a little bit in your conversations and have just that little bit of research behind you. 

Meagan: Yes. We are also going to have a bunch of links in the show notes so if you guys want to go check that out, I highly suggest it. Go check out the show notes. We’re also going to have the link to that group because anytime anybody has a special scar, I’m like, This is the group. It’s so empowering over there. It’s so informative. There are not many groups like that. Specialscars.org as well. 

Ashley: But even most of the people who have had a rupture as well, that group is just a safe space to talk about how you are feeling and there’s a lot of women on there who have become friends really just in sharing their experience. So yeah, it’s a really informative, great group. 

Meagan: Yep. Awesome. Well, thank you so much again for taking the time out and figuring out the time changes and being here with us just 12 weeks after your VBAC. 

Ashley: Thank you and thank you for everything you do to help empower women. Obviously, it’s reaching globally and it’s just so informative and supportive. Yeah, it’s amazing so thank you for everything you do. 

Meagan: Absolutely.

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

Grace found The VBAC Link Podcast while still in the hospital after her first unexpected C-section. Her recovery was brutal and she knew she never wanted to experience that again. 

Grace is a labor and delivery nurse located on the Wisconsin/Illinois border. She shares what it was like preparing for her VBAC while working at a hospital that didn’t support VBAC. 

Though she found a supportive practice, Grace faced unexpected pressure for interventions at the end of her pregnancy. Ultimately, she advocated her VBAC wishes and they continued to support her.

When she contracted a fever and her baby had prolonged heart decels at 10 centimeters, Grace was prepped and wheeled to the OR. She mentally surrendered to the idea of another C-section. 

But when baby’s heart recovered, she was encouraged to keep pushing! Her baby boy came out in just four pushes and Grace was able to achieve the VBAC she so deeply desired. 

The VBAC Link Blog: Finding a VBAC-supportive Provider

The VBAC Link Blog: 10 Signs to Switch Your Provider

The VBAC Link Blog: VBAC vs Repeat C-section

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details 

Meagan: Women of Strength, we’ve got a VBAC story coming your way today. We’ve got our friend, Grace. Where are you? Illinois? 

Grace: Yep. I’m right in between Milwaukee and Chicago right on the Wisconsin/Illinois border. 

Meagan: Okay, awesome. Well welcome to the show and she does have a little babe right now with her. How old is your baby?

Grace: He just turned a month old yesterday. 

Meagan: A month old and this is your VBAC baby. 

Grace: Yep. There he is. The man himself. 

Meagan: This is so fresh. Oh my gosh. I love when we get fresh stories. I feel like you’re probably still even processing as you tell your story. 

Grace: Yep. I am. I practiced a couple times to make sure I didn’t leave out important details. 

Meagan: Well, we are so excited to have you on the show. We do have a Review of the Week and then we’re going to get into your stories and then we’re going to talk a little bit about when the odds are stacked against you at the end and then spoiler alert, Grace is a labor and delivery nurse so I’m going to ask her some questions about how it is to be a labor and delivery nurse and supporting VBAC in her community. 

Okay, so we have this review. Its title is, “Tears plus stories plus hope plus joy equals education.” It says, “I discovered these ladies when I was 9 months postpartum from a very traumatic section and was eagerly beginning to research how to heal and build a new birth team for when my second baby came along. Now just a few months later, I’ve listened to almost all of the episodes and I hear the joy and the redemption these mamas have when they are in control of their births. It spurs me on towards my goal of one day having a successful VBAC. I cry when they cry. I feel joy when they feel joy. I feel sadness when they feel sadness and encouragement and elation when they succeed. It’s been quite the therapeutic discovery and I’m so glad Julie and Meagan created this resource. Each time Meagan or Julie directly addresses the audience as Women of Strength, I get goosebumps and I know in my heart I AM and WILL BE that woman of strength. I hope to one day share my version of success within this community.” 

That just gave me the chills so I’m just going to add tears plus stories plus hope plus joy plus chills equals education to that one. Thank you so much for your review. 

If you have not done so, as always, we would love them and you never know, you may just be read on the next podcast. 

Meagan: Okay, cute Grace. 

Grace: Hello. 

Meagan: Welcome, welcome. Let’s get going into your stories. 

Grace: Okay, so first of all, thank you for having me. This is amazing. I’m glad I had a VBAC but it’s even cooler that I get to be on the podcast. 

For my first pregnancy, I had just missed my first period so I took the test and was positive. I called my doctor and scheduled an appointment. I was about 6 weeks. At this appointment,  my doctor started calculating my due date with his little due date calculator and said, “Okay, it’s about May 26th. I’m going to induce you May 24th,” right off the bat. He decided we were going to be an induction. He said, “Since you are a first-time mom, it will reduce your risk of having to have a C-section if we schedule an induction.” 

I later found out he was actually just going to be out of town on Memorial Day weekend so he was pre-planning that for himself. But I didn’t know any better. I was like, “Okay, cool. I’ll know when I’m having the baby. I won’t have to worry about going into labor or anything.” Pregnancy went by with no complications. It was nice and smooth. 

At 39 weeks, he addressed again that we would be going in for an induction but he would just do the Cervadil. I went in that morning and they placed the Cervadil and told me, “Don’t move. Lay as flat as you can. You can only get up to go to the bathroom,” which is not true.

Meagan: Hashtag false. 

Grace: I lay there all day. They take the Cervadil out and it didn’t do much for me. I wasn’t favorable in the first place. I was closed, thick, high, and then he checked me after the Cervadil and said the same thing. Actually, he told me that he’s never done this before but he’s just going to discharge me. He didn’t want to start anything else or doing anything. I appreciate him not just pushing Pitocin when he didn’t think it was going to be a good idea. 

We left feeling super discouraged because we told everyone we were going to have a baby and then we were going home. He said, “Come in a week later if I don’t go into labor naturally. Just come in and we’ll try again.” 

So I didn’t. We went in the following week. They put in the Cervadil again. They actually did two rounds of it this time and this time we didn’t tell anybody we were going to the hospital. We just didn’t want the, “Is the baby here yet?” and all of those questions adding to the anxiety of being in labor. 

So they took the second round of Cervadil out and still didn’t really have any change. I wasn’t contracting or cramping or anything but they just let me stay there. I ended up going into labor naturally which I don’t have the statistic verified but he told me that only 20% of people will go into labor with Cervadil alone. Most people need Pitocin or something else and some other intervention to actually cause labor. 

But my labor started. Again, he didn’t give me Pitocin which again, I’m grateful for. I was contracting all day. I have a pretty low pain tolerance so I had requested something for pain. They gave me an IV pain medication that I didn’t really like. It worked for a little bit but also made me feel a little strange.

The nurses were like, “Okay, instead of getting more of the pain medicine, we recommend that you get the epidural.” This was about 12 hours after the contractions started.” I did get the epidural. I was still only a 1 at this point. They checked me after the epidural and he broke my water without really telling me that that’s what was happening. It just kind of happened. 

He broke my water and then I pretty much immediately went to 5 centimeters after he did that within the hour. I was like, “Okay, cool. It’s finally happening. I’m at 5 centimeters. I don’t feel any pain from the contractions. I have this epidural that’s working maybe even too good,” because I couldn’t even wiggle my toes but baby’s heart rate started dropping. 

This was a back and forth, “Are we going to have a C-section? No. Just kidding. You’re fine. You can push later on. You’ll dilate about a centimeter an hour,” is what they told me. But then they also had me come in and sign a consent form for a C-section. They put oxygen on me and repositioned me a little bit then they just called the C-section. 

We went to the OR that I had not even toured during our hospital tour because I was like, “I don’t need to see that. I won’t need a C-section so I don’t need to see what the OR looks like,” but then I ended up in there. 

My husband was in the hallway waiting to come in and the anesthesiologist was super supportive. She could tell I was losing it. 

They brought him in and the procedure itself went fine. There were no complications. Baby came out healthy. She had a cord wrapped around her foot twice which the doctor said he thinks maybe was why she didn’t come down, but I’m not sure. 

They took her over to the warmer and did all of her checks and everything. It felt like she was over there forever. Then they brought her swaddled over to me. We did the little cheek-to-cheek skin-to-skin. We got our classic C-section family photo on the OR table with our scrub hats on and then my husband and daughter left the room and they finished putting me back together. 

Then they took me to recovery which I was in there by myself. I had really bad shakes from the hormones or epidural. I’m not sure but I was shaking like crazy. That felt like I was in there forever by myself and then they finally brought her to me. She latched right away so at least I got to breastfeed her but we completely missed our golden hour. 

Meagan: Yeah, and you were let alone. 

Grace: Yeah, I was alone. 

Meagan: In a very scary time. 

Grace: Yes. The nurse wasn’t really talking to me. She was charting and stuff which I get that you’ve got to chart but I felt very alone in this recovery room. 

All that being said, everything did go okay. It still did not feel great that I had to have a C-section instead of my planned birth. I had my birth plan and everything. 

The next morning, the doctor did come in and he told me that for my next baby, I would have to have a C-section. He was like, “You can do all of the research that you want and the statistics are small, but I still would not let you have a trial of labor. You would be an automatic C-section.” 

Meagan: Did he actually say, “The statistics say this but for you, no.” 

Grace: No, it wasn’t just me. That’s how he practiced. 

Meagan: He just doesn’t support VBAC. 

Grace: Yes and he told me that a friend’s wife tried to VBAC and had some kind of complications. I don’t know how it ended so it also sounded like it was a personal thing. He didn’t do them for personal beliefs. 

Meagan: Yes. 

Grace: He left the room and that’s when I found your page. I started searching VBACs and how I could have one. I was so discouraged not being able to deliver vaginally. I was like, I’ve got to at least inform myself and see if I can find a way to do it and how to go about it. Knowledge is power so I wanted to know as much as I could going into it. 

I had my daughter. You’re busy with a baby so I didn’t do too much research in between. I just saw that it is ideal to wait 9 months before you get pregnant. I did find out I was pregnant at about 13 months postpartum and this was actually two days after I got offered a job as a labor and delivery nurse so I had a little bit of excitement all at once. 

13 months postpartum, and the whole time my husband after he saw my recovery was like, “Okay. I will do whatever I can to help you have a VBAC,” because he knew it was very hard on me. 

I found a doctor. I just was like, I’ll just see doctors and feel them out. My first doctor I saw was super VBAC-supportive. He said that they do them all the time. I’m a great candidate so I was like, Okay. I’ll stick with these guys.

My husband did a bunch of research too. He was looking up why people get induced and why you may or may not want to get induced to avoid a C-section and all of these things. He was my biggest cheerleader and came to appointments with me and was making sure our provider was as supportive as we needed him to be to try and make this happen. 

I also became obsessive. I was listening to the podcast all of the time on my way to work. If work was slow, I’d throw in an AirPod and do laps around the unit to be moving and hear the podcast. I was listening to it in the shower all the time and I found it really helpful just hearing other women’s stories. 

This pregnancy went by pretty complication-free. I did have some bleeding in the beginning which was just a subchorionic hematoma and they weren’t concerned about it. I actually didn’t tell people at work that I was going to VBAC because our hospital doesn’t allow for VBACs because we don’t have in-house anesthesia or OBs. 

I didn’t tell them and I didn’t want them to know I was trying. They would even ask me, “Oh, are you scheduling your C-section?” I’m just like, “Oh, I haven’t scheduled it yet.” I just kept working. At 37 weeks, I started anything I read online that could make labor happen. I was doing it. I was having the raspberry leaf tea, pineapples, the dates, walking, evening primrose oil. I was doing everything you could do to get my cervix ready to have a baby. 

At 39 weeks, we went to an appointment. I did start losing my mucus plug which made me very excited that something was happening on its own. At this appointment, I had a different provider. This practice had multiple doctors that could potentially be on when you deliver so you are supposed to see them all. 

I saw a different provider this time. He checked me. I was just a fingertip. They were going to maybe do a membrane sweep at this appointment, but he was unable to and then he mentioned, “Okay, if you get to 41 weeks, we’ll talk about scheduling your induction.” I was like, “Whoa. I thought we weren’t doing all that.” They seemed VBAC-supportive during the whole pregnancy and at the end flipped the switch and I felt like I was like, Oh no, I’m stuck. I’ve been seeing them the whole time. Now he’s going to try and push an induction on me. 

I left that appointment feeling worried. After that, my husband was like, “You should just chill out. Stop obsessing over all the things.” I had a checklist that said, “Eat your dates. Eat your pineapple. Go for a walk.” It was all of the things and it was causing me more stress than actually letting my body do anything on its own. 

I stopped. I even stopped listening to the podcast. I was just like, Okay. Whatever happens happens. I went on maternity leave too so that no one on work would ask me. I just took my leave early. Then on my due date, I went in. I was dilated to a 1 which was incredible news for me and 50% effaced. 

I was like, Wow. After all that Cervadil, nothing happened and this time, something is actually happening. He was able to do a sweep at this appointment. We did an NST too. He just said, “It’s protocol. Once you hit your due date, they do NSTs.” I felt great. I contracted and cramped all night. I was like, Maybe it’s happening, but this was just the start of some prodromal labor that went on and off for a while. 

I went into an appointment on Monday after that Friday and he said, As long as I agree to just keep coming in for NSTs, he said that he would let me go as long as I need to. They weren’t worried about induction. It was a healthy pregnancy. They weren’t worried about his size or anything like that. 

He did another sweep that Monday. That also caused me to cramp and contract. I was hand expressing as well to try and get my milk supply to come in. I was regularly contracting. I shouldn’t say regularly but it was happening and so I thought that at my next appointment, I’m going to be really dilated because this is all happening. Everything is really happening now. 

I went into my next appointment. This was a different provider again, a woman. She checked me and I was a 2 which was exciting as well. She said that she wasn’t able to do a sweep because the other doctor already did it and her fingers weren’t long enough so it wouldn’t be effective. 

Meagan: What? 

Grace: I was like, “Okay, whatever you say.” Then she sat down and asked, “If you do have to have a C-section, what is your mental state going to be because it is a possibility?” I knew it was but at this point in my pregnancy, I just didn’t want to hear the words “C-section”. I told her I would probably be okay. My eyes are wide open. I know it’s a possibility but I would feel pretty discouraged that I wasn’t able to have a VBAC. She told me if I did have a VBAC, I wouldn’t be able to pick up my daughter for at least two weeks so that really also freaked me out. 

Meagan: If you did have a VBAC? 

Grace: Oh no, I’m sorry. If I had the C-section, I would have to wait at least two weeks to pick her up. 

Meagan: Okay. Like a weight restriction. 

Grace: I’m sorry, yeah. She was like, “You don’t want to pop your incision,” which makes sense but I’m like, “I’m already bringing a new brother into her life and now I’m not going to pick her up.” That really scared me so I wanted to have my VBAC. 

So after this appointment, I was 41 weeks when I went to this appointment. That night, I had been contracting starting around 8:00 PM pretty regularly but they were spaced apart 5-7 minutes and then around midnight, the contractions became 3-4 minutes apart. They told me I could go to the hospital when they were 5, but I was worried that it would slow down my labor so I waited a little bit longer. I went in and out of the shower. I took a moment to hold my daughter and lay with her for a little bit thinking, Okay, we’re going to bring a baby home soon. It’s happening.

We called my in-laws around 4:00 in the morning to come over because they were regularly 3-4 minutes apart for quite a few hours. They came over at 5:00. We got to the hospital at about 6:00 and it did happen. My labor slowed down. The contractions went to 6 minutes apart. When I got there, I was only 2 centimeters which I was in the office in the morning so I was like, How is this possible? I just contracted for all these hours and nothing happened? I did efface a little bit more. I was 70%. 

They said, “We’re just going to watch you for a little bit. We’re not going to send you home.” Of course, it started snowing when it had been 70 degrees all week. That’s the midwest. They said, “We’ll just wait. We’ll watch you. Hang out here. It’s snowing. We’ll see what happens.” I was just sitting on the yoga ball already pretty exhausted because I had been up all night. 

Then at 9:00 AM, the doctor came in and she was like, “Okay, I’m going to break your water.” The nurse was like, “Hold on, we don’t have an IV. We were just watching her. Let’s get some other things in place before you break the water.” Before she did break the water, I was very hesitant about them doing that because I wanted it to happen naturally. I didn’t want them to force anything and then be put on a timer because at our hospital, if your water is broken for x amount of hours, then it becomes, “Okay, we’ve got to get this baby out.” I didn’t want that. 

She said, “No.” They wouldn’t be worried. They might start worrying if I developed symptoms of infection but that still wouldn’t necessarily mean I would have to have a C-section. They would just treat the infection. I did let her break the water and they checked me six hours later. Again, I didn’t make any change but the contractions had been more intense for me so I ended up getting the epidural about a half hour after that at 3:30. 

Once I got the epidural, I was feeling good. They told me they wanted to start Pitocin. I was hesitant about that as well because it does increase your risk of uterine rupture not that the percent is that high, but I wanted to avoid it if I could but they told me I would be on a different protocol because I’m a TOLAC patient so they would go low and slow. They would start at a 1 and keep it slow. 

Anytime they did go over 2 though, baby didn’t like it. His heart rate would drop a little bit so they did end up turning it on and off all day but the contractions still stayed pretty spaced apart. 

Around 10:00, they did check me and I was a 4. His head was low. I was having some bloody show. They shut off the Pitocin because the contractions were every minute apart. 

Meagan: Oh, that’s a little close. 

Grace: Yeah. I don’t know. I couldn’t tell because I had an epidural but they also placed the IUPC and they did an amnioinfusion which we don’t really do much at our hospital so I was pretty unfamiliar with it and she explained that they wanted to just replace my fluid because I had been ruptured for a while and baby needs some fluid to come down and help me dilate so they did that. I feel like I had all of these wires going everywhere. 

After a little bit, I did end up getting a fever. They gave me some IV antibiotics so with all of these things happening at my hospital, I would have been a C-section for sure. I could tell they were very VBAC-supportive. They came in and repositioned me so frequently because his heart rate would drop. The nurse was in there all night. I was like, This poor nurse is in here every 5 minutes repositioning me or doing something for me. 

Around 1:00 in the morning, I felt such intense pressure. My epidural had worked really well, but I was feel all that pressure of his head. She didn’t want to check me because she said, “We don’t want to be in there too much because,” 

Meagan: You already had a fever, yeah. 

Grace: They waited, but this pain and pressure was pretty intense for me. I was crying through the contractions. It felt like my body was pushing for me. I was like, “Can you please check me? I know that you don’t want to but I’m feeling like something is happening.” I ended up throwing up which could also be baby is getting ready to come out. 

They did check me at 6:00 in the morning. I was 10 centimeters. She called the doctor to let her know and said– this was also the doctor who I had my last appointment with who didn’t sound super on board with me having a VBAC. 

Meagan: The short-finger one? 

Grace: Yeah, little fingers. 

Meagan: Little fingers. 

Grace: I was like, I really hope she’s not on. They were like, “She’s on for 24 hours.” I was like, “Okay.” She was the one. She was like, “Let her do a practice push then I’ll be in there soon.

At this point, I had been in so much pain from the pressure all night that I was like, “I don’t even think I can push him out.” I’m a first-time mom basically because it’s my first vaginal birth and I could be pushing for 2-3 hours. I was like, “I don’t know if I have it in me.” I said that to my husband. I was like, “I don’t know if I can push.” He was like, “Don’t be discouraged. If you have to have a C-section, you have to have a C-section.” That lit a fire in me. I was like, “No. I did not just go through 31 hours of labor to call it quits. I’m going to at least try to push and see what happens.” 

I do one practice push and the little guy’s heart rate drops and doesn’t recover for 6 minutes. Everyone is rushing in– the doctor, the hospitalist doctor, all of the nurses. They were like, “Don’t be discouraged. You did everything you could but we’re probably going to have to have a C-section.” The doctor goes, “I think your uterus is rupturing.” I’m like, “Okay, that’s scary. Don’t tell me that.” I’m like, “What is even making you think that?” 

She’s making a little note in the computer. They are putting in all the orders for me to go into the OR. She said, “But if baby’s heart rate recovers in the OR, we’ll let you push in the OR but we want everyone around to make sure if we do need to have a C-section, we have the whole staff ready to go.” 

They wheeled me in, were giving me meds in the hallway while I’m on the way in there. The nurses were super comforting though. One of the nurses told me that she tried to TOLAC with her second and ended up having a C-section and that it’s nothing to be ashamed of which it’s not. I just really wanted to do it. I felt like up until that point, I did everything I could. 

They wheeled me into the OR and the anesthesiologist said he partially blocked me. He gave me ⅓ of the dose that they would give for a C-section but I felt very numb. I could not feel the contractions. I couldn’t feel my legs, nothing. 

They hooked me up to the monitor and his heart rate recovered miraculously. He was in the 150’s. They said they wanted me to push. I also had already thrown in the white flag mentally and said, “I don’t know if I can push. I’m scared now.” I froze up. I was like, “I don’t want to have a C-section. I don’t want to push. I’m just in this limbo right now of I don’t know how we’re going to get this baby out.” They told me that they wanted to use a vacuum. 

Initially, I was like, “I don’t really want you to use a vacuum,” but the hospitalist said that it would  help us get baby out faster when I’m pushing. I did finally consent to them using the vacuum. 

So we’re in there. They nurses had to tell me when I was contracting because I couldn’t tell. They had this audio of my monitor on but they couldn’t see the strip for some reason so they were just palpating my belly to tell when I was contracting. They would say, “Okay, push now.” With four contractions and the help of the vacuum, I did push and got baby out successfully. 

Meagan: Just four? 

Grace: Just four. I know I kind of cheated with the vacuum. 

Meagan: That’s pretty dang fast though. 

Grace: 10 minutes of pushing and he came out with copious amounts of the fluid that they had replaced. I had said I wanted him to be skin-to-skin if I could. He came out good so they put him on my chest. They actually let me reach down and feel his head while I was pushing and that really motivated me to get him out. 

The nurses were so helpful and so was the doctor. I don’t think I could have pushed him out as good as I did if they weren’t literally rallying around me like, “You’ve got this. You’re doing great pushes. He’s almost there.” I got him out and I got to hold him then they said, “Let’s just take him to the warmer for a little bit. He swallowed some fluid.” They were reassuring me the whole time then they ended up letting him come back to me. I got to wheel back to the room with him with me which was so exciting for me. 

I got to breastfeed right away and we went to our postpartum room as a family. I just remember that it was such an emotional rollercoaster at the end. I prepped so much for a VBAC. Okay, just accept the fact that you’re having a C-section. Just kidding, you’re getting your VBAC. I felt like there were so many junctions where it could have been like, “Okay, we’re just giving you a C-section.” We ended up getting lucky and having the baby. I feel like I could not have done it without the nurses and the doctor and all of the information I learned from this podcast so seriously, thank you guys so much for what you do because you make such a big difference in people’s lives. 

That night, I got to pick up my daughter and lift her up and show her her new brother in the hospital. I was so happy. A month out, I’m able to move. I don’t feel like myself again, but closer than I did when I had my C-section. This all went so great and I’m so glad I got to do it. 

Meagan: I am so glad too. I am so grateful to you for being here and sharing your story with us. It’s always fun to hear that we were in people’s ears along the way. Man, it’s what we were talking about in the beginning with the odds stacked against you with this happening and it could also go to this or the baby’s heart rate drops and then they do this and then this happens. There are all of the things that could go wrong, but a lot of the way, it seemed like you were making the choices that felt best for you even when it might have been, “Hey, we’re going to come break your water,” and it might not have been exactly what you want but you ultimately felt good about it. 

So let’s talk about that. When someone comes in or if VBAC isn’t supported in this hospital and maybe that’s your only hospital, that’s a really hard one. In your hospital you work in now, you said, “If that were my hospital, I would have gone in for a C-section and they don’t support it,” so what do people do in your area when your hospital doesn’t support it?

Grace: They definitely don’t support it. They would just automatically schedule you for a repeat Cesarean and if we did get a patient in who was in labor, we would probably transfer them or we would have to make sure that the OB who was on is close enough to get there. 

In my short amount of time that I’ve been there so far, I did see one VBAC. They made an exception for her. The OB stayed overnight. 

Meagan: Wow. 

Grace: So did the anesthesiologist. She ended up VBACing and having a big baby and everything. I feel like the odds were kind of stacked against her too but other than that, they don’t try to do it and since they don’t do it, because we don’t have the resources, a lot of the staff there just doesn’t believe in VBACs and they have a lot of– like I said, I didn’t tell anybody I was VBACing but I would hear them talk about VBACs and I’m like, I can’t tell you guys that I’m doing this until I succeed at it then I can be like it is possible. 

Meagan: What did they say?

Grace: They were really glad that I got it how I wanted it. They did know that it was a rough recovery for me and I told them the C-section was really hard on me and our family so they were like, “I’m glad you got to do what you wanted.” 

Meagan: Yeah. Well, when the odds are stacked against you, and the odds are looking different for everybody. Sometimes it’s advanced maternal age, big baby measuring, over our due date, special scar, VBAC after multiple Cesareans– I mean, there are all of the things that can be stacked against us, but when you are in an area that isn’t supportive, that’s good to know that they would even transfer them and be like, “Actually, we’re going to transfer you to this hospital.” You can transfer hospitals. 

Of course, you can decide to explore home birth. You can try to find a different provider within that hospital because if that hospital is supportive but that provider isn’t supportive, there are things you can do. I’m going to have a link for a whole bunch of different blogs on ways to find supportive providers, what to do, and also how to decide if a VBAC or a C-section is right for you because I think that can be hard when you find a location that is not supportive. It sometimes is easier to just make the other decision and go along with it. 

Okay, so labor and delivery nurse. You are relatively new. 

Grace: Yes. 

Meagan: But how has it been? How do you feel like birth is in your location?

Grace: I feel like it’s good. They do a lot of inductions there. A lot of the patients, they’ll say, “Let’s induce you around 39 weeks.” Initially, my first over a month of orientation, I didn’t see a vaginal birth. I only saw C-sections. It was very common. I don’t know if I was unlucky. I don’t know. Maybe it was the shift I worked because I worked 3:00 in the morning to 3:00 PM. I’m not sure. I was like, “I’d really like to see a vaginal birth because I–”

Meagan: Am hoping for one. 

Grace: Exactly. I was pregnant then and I didn’t tell anybody but it was nice working while I was pregnant and being able to actually learn a lot more while I’m working about labor. I could watch my contraction strip and know what it means. 

It helped me have more knowledge going into my own situation and then I felt like I was pregnant forever so at the end of my pregnancy, I’m like, They were due after me and they had their baby. Everyone was over there having their babies and I was still pregnant. I was like, I’m just going to grow him as long as I can and when he’s ready, he will come out. 

Meagan: Yeah. I love that. I love that you’ve been able to learn. I think that’s one of my favorite things too just being a doula. Obviously, I’m not there actually charting those strips or anything like that but it’s been really fun to learn that strip better because we can tell baby’s position sometimes based on those charts. We’ve got coupling contractions sometimes and we know that baby is in a wonky position. 

Huge congrats to you. 

Grace: Thank you. 

Meagan: If you decide to go back to the labor and delivery route, I wish you all of the luck and I’m sure that you’ll be cheering people on and supporting and helping them along the way. 

Grace: Yes and now I can help them better because I went through a C-section and a vaginal and now I can kind of relate to all of the patients in what they might need. 

Meagan: Absolutely. Absolutely. 

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

“With cord blood, hope really knows no bounds.”

Diane Paradise is living proof that cord blood transplants cure the incurable. Diagnosed with a rare form of Hodgkin Lymphoma at only 24 years old, Diane fought an extremely hard fight as it returned five more times before age 42. It had now become stage 4B and metastasized to her bone marrow. 

With no other options, Diane was given hope through a clinical trial. She eradicated all of her sick marrow through aggressive chemotherapy and then was given a new blood type through a cord blood transplant from two different donors. 24 days later, after almost two decades, Diane was cured. 

She has just celebrated her 10th year of being cancer-free and has committed her life’s work to spreading education about the hope behind what banking your baby’s cord blood after birth can do for your family. 

Meagan and Diane talk about what cord blood banking is, how to enroll, how much it costs, and where you can find all of the information you need about this lifesaving procedure. 

July is Cord Blood Awareness Month and Cryo-Cell is offering a free seminar on Wednesday, July 31 2024 at 1:00 PM EST. Register at https://lp.cryo-cell.com/fuller-paradise-seminar. 

Cryo-Cell's Website

Needed Website

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details 

Meagan: Hey, hey everybody. Today’s episode is a little different from the norm. We are actually going to be talking about cord blood banking. We have my friend Diane on the podcast. Hello, Diane. 

Diane: Hello, hello. 

Meagan: It’s so good to see you again. She and I met for the first time actually in January of this year, 2024 at a doula retreat and she was there speaking at this retreat about cord blood banking. Cord blood banking for me wasn’t actually a new topic because I had spoken to another company a little while ago about it but there was something extra unique and extra special about Diane and Cryo-Cell is the company that she works with that I was like, We need to share more about this. 

First of all, her story which I’m sure she’ll share a little bit more about, is incredible. So today, we actually normally would do a review, but I really want to soak up the time with Diane because I know her time is so precious. After the intro, we are going to dive right into what this is even about. 

Meagan: Okay, you guys. Like I said, we have our friend Diane. Diane is a 29-year, six-time cancer survivor. After fighting a rare and uncurable Hodgkin Lymphoma for nearly two decades, a cord stem cell transplant saved her life. 

You guys, when she was sharing her story at this retreat, it was so insanely amazing and heartbreaking at the same time. So many things that she’s been through. It says, “This past December, she celebrated her 10th transplant re-birthday. For many years, Diane was a survivorship educator helping women living with cancer and chronic illness. Today she is spending time on the side of the cure educating expectant parents, birth workers, and obstetricians on providing the potential of cord blood for Cryo-Cell International, the world’s first cord blood bank.” 

Diane, welcome to the show. Seriously, I am so excited for you to talk more about this with our listeners because we do have expectant parents. We do have OB/GYNs and midwives and birth workers and this really is a unique thing and it’s something that is so powerful. I know because I’ve heard your story so I’m just going to turn the time over to you. 

Diane: Thank you so much, Meagan. First of all, I know your audience is varied but for the expectant moms out there, I just want to say congratulations. I can only imagine the mix of emotions they are feeling right now and one of them is probably a profound sense of hope and anticipation. 

So for me, hope was two units of cord blood stem cells hanging on an IV pole on December 3, 2013. So let me step back a bit just so everybody can understand. I was diagnosed at 24 years old with that rare, incurable form of Hodgkin Lymphoma. It was back in 1994. I think about that. Wow, I’m aging and I love it. The alternative wasn’t great. 

Meagan: But you’re still so young. 

Diane: I am. I am.

I was told that this was incurable and that it would keep coming back. It would be more and more aggressive. The chemo would become less effective over time and the intervals between when it came back would get shorter. That’s exactly what happened. It came back at ages 31, 35, and 38. It became really aggressive at age 40. What I mean by that is that it went from stage 2B to 4B. It had metastasized into my bone marrow. I couldn’t walk. I couldn’t drive. I couldn’t take care of myself. I couldn’t even take care of myself alone. 

Thankfully, I went back into remission around the spring of 41, but it came back a year later at age 42. I spent about a year and a half going through different types of chemotherapy trying to get it back into remission and that’s when the idea of a transplant came up because quite honestly, it was my last chance. It was my last hope. It was in my bone marrow. It was time to either going to heal or it wasn’t. 

So I ended up in a major hospital and we originally had started looking at bone marrow transplant. We were looking at what they call a half-match and they were going to use my sibling. Now, my siblings aren’t ideal donors. They are older than I am and the ideal donor is 18-35. At that point, I was 43 so I was a year and a half into it. I was 43 so that tells you how much out of the ideal age range my siblings were. 

Then they called me and said, “Oh hey, we have a clinical trial going where we are going to be comparing the side effects of cord blood versus bone marrow and the effectiveness.” I was like, “I don’t understand. What’s the difference?” They said, “Bone marrow is educated stem cells. They are educated stem cells. They’ve been exposed so any virus that your donor has or has had, when you receive that donation as your own stem cells, you will have been exposed to that whereas cord blood which is taken after the umbilical cord is clamped and cut is pure and uneducated. It has a higher rate of engraftment. It has a lower rate of graft versus host disease which is where your body thinks the stem cells are the enemy. Then it really doesn’t have much of a chance of a virus being there, a latent virus.” 

I went ahead and said, “Yes. Hello, I’ll take that pure, uneducated. I’ve had a failing immune system for 19 years at this point. Yes. I’ll take that clean, clear, beautiful, pristine cord blood stem cells.” So I went to the hospital. It was around November and I had to do a lot of the pretesting. I went through six days of really intense chemotherapy and one day of radiation to eradicate my own bone marrow, the sick bone marrow. 

Then I received on December 3, 2013, two donor stem cells. One was from Germany and one was from Michigan. About, it was a few weeks later. It was a few weeks later when they pull a blood test to see where are you on the engraftment. Is there a little bit of one of the donors? And I want to step back. 

The reason that there were two donors– if I were a child, I would only need one donor, but I’m an adult. That’s a lot of bone marrow that has to go in and graft and replicate in order to ingraft for an adult basically. That’s why I had two of them. It kind of creates a survivor of the fittest. It creates an environment for faster cell engraftment. 

So then I had the blood test done 24 days later. After 19 years of battling incurable cancer, I was 100% grafted to the Michigan baby in just those 24 days. 

Meagan: Isn’t that incredible? 

Diane: It really is. I was cured by cord blood in 24 days. 

Meagan: 24 days after years and years. 

Diane: Almost two decades. 

Meagan: Yes. 

Diane: Yes. So think about this. I want you to really think about this. What is often tossed as medical waste is what saved my life. 

Meagan: I encapsulate placentas, the actual placenta itself and there will be so many times where people are like, “Why would you do that? That is garbage.” They literally say that. They think that. Placentas are garbage, but look at what it’s done. It saved your life. 

Diane: Well, the cord blood did, yes. 

Meagan: The cord blood which I understand they can throw the placenta away after they get the cord blood out. Is that correct? 

Diane: So what we do with cord blood is that after it is clamped and cut, they actually insert a needle and draw the rest of the cord blood out because the placenta continues to pulse as if the baby is there for up to 30 minutes. That’s the stem cells that we are collecting. 

Now, if we were to collect the cord tissue that’s after the placenta has been delivered, we will cut and collect the cord tissue if that’s something that the parent is interested in, yes. 

Meagan: Gotcha. 

Diane: Yes. So I ended up with a new blood type, just so you know. 

Meagan: Oh yes, I remember you saying that. 

Diane: Remember? I remember you liked that comment a lot when we talked about it. 

Meagan: A whole new blood type. The fascinating thing is even your immune system we talked about how it started over. 

Diane: Yeah, I had new baby immunizations. I’m 43 years old and 44 years old and getting immunizations as if I never had them. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Diane: I just find that so fascinating. 

Meagan: It is so fascinating. 

Diane: So fascinating. 

Meagan: It is. Okay, so cord blood isn’t being used a ton. 

Diane: It is. It is. 

Meagan: Sorry, it is being used a ton. 

Diane: A lot more than people know, a lot more than people know. 

Meagan: This is my thing is that it’s not being talked about. 

Diane: Bingo, ding ding ding. There you go. 

Meagan: Let’s go into that. 

Diane: Yes. It’s funny because even I found a transplant video from the day of the transplant where I did a vlog to my family and friends and I talked to them about these two women who selflessly donated their cord blood and how it would potentially save my life or potentially could save my life. I was like, “I don’t even know how they do that.” The video was really funny. What I realized was once I got done with it, I went down this rabbit hole of, I need to know more. 

Once it cured me, I wanted to know everything. 

Meagan: I’m sure. 

Diane: What I found was there was a lot of information out there and it’s being used in a lot of ways but there’s also misinformation. You had mentioned that I was a survivorship coach leading up to this and I was until I moved to Tennessee and I just decided I didn’t want to continue that and I wanted to be on the side of the cure and for me, that was cord blood. 

Fast forward to today, I am working for Cryo-Cell International and now, I can recognize and help people with the misinformation and myths surrounding cord blood banking. You talked about it not being used. That is simply not true. We just don’t know about it. 

It is actually an FDA-approved treatment for nearly 80 different diseases including blood cancers, and anemias– we have a whole list on our website but there have been 50,000 transplants worldwide and there are 175 active clinical trials for things like autism, multiple sclerosis, cerebral palsy, adult stroke, Alzheimer’s, dementia, Type 1 diabetes, Parkinson’s– because what it is, cord blood is rich. I don’t want this to be a big science class lesson, but it’s good for people to understand because we have two different things here. 

We have cord blood and we have cord tissue. Cord blood is what is called a metapoetic stem cell and that is what creates all of the cells in your blood and immune system which is why it was able to replace my stem cells with my donor’s. They are a perfect match for the baby. They are a 50-75% chance of a match for a sibling and there are a lot of sibling transplants and an acceptable match for parents. 

Now, the other side of it, the cord tissue, is a different type of stem cell which is the mesenchymal stem cell. They do something a little bit different. That’s in the Wharton’s Jelly so they are capable of becoming structural and connective tissues like bone, fat, and cartilage, and they can modify immune functions to help treat autoimmune diseases such as arthritis and diabetes. 

I recently listened to a doctor out of UC Davis. Her name is Dr. Farmer and she used the stem cells from cord tissue on the spine of a baby with spina bifida in utero. She did the surgery in utero and closed up the opening where the spinal cord was exposed and the baby came out wiggling their toes and moving legs. Pretty amazing. 

Meagan: Wow. 

Diane: Yeah. And there’s a lot being done with this. There are over 100 active clinical trials for ALS, rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, Type 1 diabetes again, MS, Crohn’s, and spinal cord injuries– I mean, there are just so many active clinical trials for different diseases out there. It is being used. Cord blood is being used and cord tissue is in active clinical trials as well. 

Meagan: Wow. So especially for our pregnant mamas and expectant parents or even birth workers wanting to share this information with their clients, what is the process to do this? We know a lot of the benefits right here. We just went through so many of these benefits. What is the process of getting started? 

What I think is pretty cool about Cryo-Cell is that they can send the kit to you. I saw the kit you have brought as an example. Can you walk listeners through what it’s like in case they are interested in doing it both physically on what the steps are and even financially if we can talk a little bit about that? 

Diane: We can.

Meagan: Then storage-wise, how long? There are so many questions. Can we talk about that process? 

Diane: Absolutely. Absolutely. 

Okay. I’m trying to think of where we should start with this. There are so many questions you just asked me there. 

Meagan: Sorry, I just threw a lot at you. 

Diane: Like, hmm. Where do I begin? Another myth– so if somebody wants to save for themselves, one of the myths we hear is that it’s expensive. 10 years ago it was. Now, it’s more affordable and Cryo-Cell has, first of all, we have the most amazing kit. You mentioned it. I will repeat that. We have a kit that has a handle on it. It comes to you. You open it up and it has everything right there, the forms for you to fill out, the information for you to give the delivery physician. All of that is right there. 

When you enroll, you get the collection kit, the shipping, the medical courier, the processing, and testing because after processing, once it arrives back to us, it has to be processed and tested as well as the first year is storage. That price because it has that initial fee in it ranges from $800-2000 whether it is cord blood or cord blood and cord tissue. 

However, we have a risk-free enrollment so nothing is charged at the time that you enroll. If you decide not to collect, call us and ship the kit back within two weeks and it will be no cost to the expectant parent. Then after that, if they do enroll and we get all of it and it’s processed, the annual storage fee runs between $185 and $370. It’s $185 for cord blood and then $370 for cord blood and cord tissue. 

We offer flexed payment plans. We offer monthly specials. There are discounts for returning clients and families with multiple children. We have military discounts for retired and active and also medical professionals. If your friends and family want to purchase gift certificates for you, they can do that as well. We have that ability. 

The thing that I like the most is that we have a refer-a-friend program. If you are having a baby, your friends are probably having them too. If you refer your friend to us and they become a client, you get a free year of storage and you can get unlimited years of storage using that program. 

I do want to just take a quick step back with the kit because our kit is like I said, it’s special. It has everything in it that you need. We have these– I’m trying to think of what they are called right now. Vacuum packs, they’re not vacuum packs. They’re insulated packs because it has to stay at a certain temperature. If it’s too hot out, those packs will cool the collection down as it’s being shipped. 

If it's too cold out, it will warm them up. It’s pretty special. It is definitely a kit and then it also protects up to 30 times longer because of that. 

Meagan: Yeah. Which I think is a really unique thing about their kit for sure. 

Diane: Yes. Yes. 

Meagan: So they’ve got it no matter what part of the world or what time your baby is born. If it’s in wintertime or summertime– 

Diane: Yes. It’s taken care of. 

Meagan: It’s taken care of. You can rest assured. Okay, so they can enroll to be a member. If you do and decide to donate, it gets sent. There’s an initial fee but then there is an annual fee which you can easily get for free by referring friends. We talked about it being shared and it can help siblings and things like that. It is there if you need it. 

For your instance, is it possible to be a match to somebody then does someone call? How does that work? 

Diane: No, so my donations came from a public bank. Mine were unrelated donors. 

Meagan: Okay, because that was a clinical thing too, right? Was yours a trial? 

Diane: It was a trial, but they already knew that cord blood transplants worked. They were just trying to compare the side effects of each– which has lower, graft versus host. 

Meagan: So it was just being donated from a bank. 

Diane: Yes, from a public bank. If someone can’t afford to private bank for their family, there is the option to donate like what saved me. 

Meagan: That’s where I was getting at. This is perfect. 

Diane: That is free and that is anonymous. You can give someone a chance at life whether it be through a transplant like I received or through research. Cryo-Cell has public donation sites in Florida, Arizona, and California. 

If there isn’t one in someone’s area who is listening, I’m sure you’ll put out my contact information and they can contact me directly and I may be able to help them find a way for them to donate. 

Now, there’s a couple of things that I want people to understand about the public donation option. If you can’t afford to private bank, this is a great option because the only other option is for it to be medical waste. Let these be the only two options for you and that’s why I’m like, contact me. I might be able to help. 

I want you to understand that I did have two donors. Only one of them was from the United States. They had to go out of the States to Germany to find me a second match. Whether it’s bone marrow or cord blood, it isn’t easy to find any match when it comes to that type of transplant. If there is a family history of any of the diseases that I mentioned earlier, I really urge people to consider private banking to safeguard your family’s health because when you donate, sometimes people think, Well, I’ll just donate and it’ll be there if I need it. 

Well, 8 out of 10 units that are donated go to medical waste anyway because of family health history or low collection volume and they are being used daily. The ones that are there are being used daily so most likely, you won’t find it if you need the cord blood for your family. 

Meagan: Right and your family is more likely to be a perfect match, right? 

Diane: With the matches, it is a perfect match for the baby. It’s a 50-75% acceptable match for a sibling and an acceptable match for the parents as well. 

Meagan: Right, yeah. So pretty awesome chances. 

Diane: Yes. Yes. Because of the audience, I want everybody to understand because this is probably the #1 myth that I get from parents that I hear a lot. That is that, Well, I want to delay cord clamp so I can’t save the cord blood. I want you to know that you can. 

10 years ago, that was probably true. Today, if they follow the ACOG recommendation of a 30-60-second delay, you can delay and save. It may yield a smaller collection so basically what that means is it’s really crucial to select the best processing method. For instance, our PrepaCyte processing method is more advanced. It provides a cleaner yield and that is what makes it beneficial for delayed cord clamping and saving the cord blood. 

So if that is truly what they want to do, here’s the other thing to know. Remember how I said that you have a risk-free enrollment if you enroll then decide not to collect? If you enroll and you collect and it gets to us and it has suboptimal results, we pick up the phone and call you and talk to you about it. You can decide one way or another if you want to move forward with banking that cord blood. 

Meagan: Continue. 

Diane: Yes. 

And you did ask about how long does this stuff last? Cord blood is living medicine. It is collected. It is processed and it is stored in this amazing five-compartment chamber so you can get multiple uses out of it if maybe it’s a treatment protocol and it’s not one big transplant necessarily which I think is going to become more and more the way of doing things with cord blood. That’s my personal opinion. That’s not necessarily the opinion of Cryo-Cell, but I do see that with all of the reading that I’ve done. 

Did I answer all of those questions you threw at me? I’m not sure, but I tried. 

Meagan: Yes, yes. I think you did. You nailed it. 

Diane: Yes. 

Meagan: Yes. Yes. Okay, so obviously you chose to work for Cryo-Cell for a reason and you’re telling us all of the things about why but is there anything else that you are like, this is literally why I choose Cryo-Cell and why I suggest them? 

Diane: Yes. When I was doing all of my research, I looked into all of the cord blood banks, but for me, because I was cured by cord blood. This was why I am still standing here. I wanted to work for a company who did more than just banked cord blood. So when I went looking for that and I found Cryo-Cell, I realized that they focus on cord blood education and also cord blood advancement. They are embedded in every facet of the cord blood industry. They have private which is also called family banking. They have public donation sites. They are always seeking out the best technology for our kids and for our storage. I mentioned those temperature packs. I mentioned the five-chamber storage bag and then our premium processing, the PrepaCyte. 

So we are the world’s first cord blood bank, but we don’t ever rest on our laurels. Thank you. There’s the word. They never rest on their laurels, so to speak. Why do I keep trying to say that word? That’s hilarious. They are constantly trying to advance research. They are advancing research. 

In 2021, Cryo-Cell entered into an exclusive license agreement with Duke University and what that does is it grants us the right to propriety processes and regulatory data related to cord blood and cord tissue development at Duke. 

This year, I love this. This year, we are opening our first infusion clinic where it will be a site for future clinical trials investigating cerebral palsy, autism, and other neurological conditions. This is what I mean. We don’t just collect the cord blood and cryo-preserve it. We are constantly looking for how that can be used. How can it be used to protect the families who have trusted us with their baby’s cord blood? 

And not just us, but they’ve trusted us and we want to do what’s right for them. Cord blood is all we do. We aren’t part of a larger business model and that’s what makes our quality and our level of customer service unmatched. I knew Cryo-Cell was who I wanted to work for and I’ll be honest with you. The story behind how this all happened was honestly the stars aligning and I happened to be in the same room with someone who worked there. 

I had a conversation and a few months later, this is where I ended up. I couldn’t be happier. This company is– 

Meagan: Life-changing, literally. 

Diane: Yes. Life saving. 

Meagan: Lifesaving, yeah. 

Okay, so tell everybody where they can enroll and find more information because on the website, there’s a lot of really great information. There’s more on why, pricing, they go into the cord tissue. They talk about private versus public so all of the things that you’ve been touching on. They’ve got all of these things, a Q&A. There is a really, really great amount of information. 

Where can they find you? Where can they find the website? How can they enroll and all of the things?

Diane: If they want to know more or are ready to enroll, they can go to our website which is cryo-cell.com and they can either chat with one of our incredible cord blood educators. They can click to enroll. Like you said, everything that they are curious about is there. If they want to reach out to me personally, I have an Instagram account for Cryo-Cell which is called @curedbycordblood. I have all of my contact information there. 

Meagan: Okay. I’m going to write that down right now so we can make sure to have it in the show notes. You guys, it’s super easy in case you forget anything. Just scroll in the show notes. Click the link and you can go read more about how you can definitely start cord blood banking for yourself or like she said, even donate to the public. 

Diane: Yes. Yes, or for research. 

Can I just end with one thing for these expectant parents? 

Meagan: Yes, of course. 

Diane: Banking cord blood is a once in your baby’s lifetime opportunity. You don’t want to miss it. If you have questions, call us. When I tell you we have the greatest educators in the industry, I mean it. Every bit of it, I mean it. They can answer all of your questions. All I ask is that no matter what you decide, please don’t let it go to medical waste because, with cord blood, hope really knows no bounds. 

Meagan: Thank you so stinking much for joining us today and sharing this seriously invaluable information. It is so important and it can really benefit so many people. So thank you so much.  

Diane: Thank you for having me.  

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

Rachel is a pediatric dentist who owns her own practice in Pensacola, Florida. She fought for an empowering second birth experience even with an initial diagnosis of complete placenta previa. When her placenta thankfully moved, Rachel was cleared to go for her VBAC and she was all in!

Rachel drove six hours to be able to birth with the provider she knew would best support her VBAC. With her doula and supportive family by her side, Rachel achieved the beautiful birth she envisioned. 

Additional Links

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

The VBAC Link Facebook Community

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Meagan: Women of strength, you are listening to The VBAC Link and I cannot wait for today’s story. Reading this story, there are so many twists. Not even twists I should say, but factors to this story. We have our friend Rachel telling it from Florida so welcome, Rachel. 

Rachel: Thank you so much. I’m so, so honored to be on this podcast. I can’t believe I’m actually getting to share this amazing journey with you guys so thank you for having me. 

Meagan: We are honored that you are here with us. Yeah. I feel like there are quite a few things within your story. Things like baby’s position, placenta previa which we are going to talk a lot about at the end, even dental stuff, close duration, so there are a lot of things where I feel like people can relate to this story. 

I will read a review and then we will get right into your beautiful story. Today’s reviewer is haley222222. It says, “I can’t recommend enough. I found this podcast shortly after my C-section in 2019 with my first and it has helped me so much. My doctor had told me that I was only going to be able to have four children because I was going to have C-sections from here on out. This podcast opened my eyes to the possibilities I didn’t have a clue about and I had options.” 

Oh, I just scrolled, and okay. Here we go. 

It says, “I was able to find providers that I trusted and who actually believed in me. I prepared for my VBAC and unfortunately, my first VBAC was a stillborn at 26 weeks, second baby boy in October of 2022.” 

So sorry to hear that, Haley. 

It says, “Although it was heartbreaking, it was truly an amazing experience and I can’t wait to have another vaginal birth hopefully with a better outcome and a baby we can bring home. I am pregnant with my third now and I’m relistening to all of the episodes. I am so excited to do this. I am in the process of hiring a doula and we will be taking a birth course this time around. Thank you so much for creating this podcast and I’m so grateful for all that I have learned.” 

Well, Haley, thank you so much. Again, my condolences to you on your second and congrats on your third, and thank you so much for sharing your review. 

Meagan: Okay, we have our friend Rachel. Like I said earlier, she is from Florida. So you are a dentist and you have your own clinic, is this right?

Rachel: Yes. I am a pediatric dentist. I only work on children. We have a private practice in Pensacola, Florida which is the panhandle of Florida. It’s lower Alabama, kind of LA but it’s on that end of the spectrum, not south Florida. 

Meagan: Awesome. That is so exciting. So, so exciting. 

Rachel: Thank you. 

Meagan: Well, thank you so much for being with us. I would love to turn the time over to you to share this story and then at the end, we’ll get into that placenta previa and some dental stuff. 

Rachel: I know, who would have thought that dentistry could be related to C-sections? 

Meagan: Who would have thought? Really, though. 

Rachel: I know. It’s all related. 

Meagan: We never talk about it so I’m excited too. 

Rachel: Well, I guess I’ll just get excited about my children journey. Again, I’m just so thankful that I get to talk on this podcast. I listen to you guys every single day when I was preparing for a VBAC and Meagan, what you’re doing is changing so many people’s lives. Like we talked about, I’m sure recording a podcast can get a little crazy like with any job that we do, but you really are making such a difference in so many people’s lives so I really thank you for that. 

Meagan: Oh, thank you. Thank you. 

Rachel: Yes. So okay, my children journey I guess what you could say started in Gainesville. My husband and I were living in Gainesville. He was finishing up an orthodontic residency at that time and I was working as a pediatric dentist. I had just finished residency and I was working at a private practice. We became pregnant with our first baby. They said I had a subchorionic hematoma around 7 weeks and said, “Don’t worry.” It’s a pretty common thing I think. 

Meagan: It is. 

Rachel: I came back for a follow-up ultrasound anyway around 10 weeks or so and no heartbeat. We had a miscarriage. They gave me two options, either the misoprostol pill to pass the baby or the D&C.

Meagan: Cytotec. 

Rachel: Yeah, or the D&C. After talking to a lot of people, I just decided to have the D&C. It seemed less emotionally scarring. Anyway, so we did that. Right around that time, the day before surgery, the whole COVID thing in 2020 started and they said that for some reason, dentists were considered non-essential so everything was shut down for the whole month of April. 

Meagan: What?!

Rachel: I had never not worked my whole life. This was the most time I had ever had off ever so it was crazy. I was not working. I had scheduled the D&C. That morning, I had a 99-degree fever or something. My OB in Gainesville was amazing. The whole hospital staff was like, “Oh my gosh. She might have COVID. We can’t do the surgery.” Yeah, so crazy. My OB had to vouch for me to say that I didn’t have COVID and that we could still do the D&C anyway. I’m pretty sure I was the last elective surgery to have done and then after the date, literally I think it was March 20th, and the day after, they stopped doing elective surgeries and stuff. 

I was super thankful for that. It’s Dr. Erin in Gainesville and she was just awesome. We had a miscarriage. It was a super tough time for me and my husband. I just remember praying and asking God to comfort us because we are Christians and I just really believe that God is close to the brokenhearted. The Bible says, “He’s near to the brokenhearted.” It’s still hard though because he’s not here to comfort you physically. I just remember I was praying and there was this dove that came to our house and lived in our backyard. It was so crazy. For several weeks, he just made a nest on the ground.

Meagan: That just gave me the chills. 

Rachel: It is. I’m telling you, I prayed so hard. He can comfort you but he’s not going to give you a hug or something. I don’t know. Do you know what I mean? So literally this dove came and lived in our yard. That dove was there. I’m not even kidding you. The day that I found out I was pregnant, the dove just left. We were like, “Where did that dove go? He was living in our yard and now he’s not there.” That was the day I found out we were pregnant with our second baby, or our first baby. 

Meagan: Uh-uh. Wow. 

Rachel: It was so insane. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. 

Rachel: Yes. That was the first crazy thing. I had wanted a puppy after the miscarriage and we had a really small courtyard so my husband was like, “Well, if we get a puppy, I’m getting a monkey.” I’m like, “No.” I was like, “Well if you really do want a monkey, I can look into finding us a monkey if you’ll let me have a puppy.” He’s like, “Okay, deal.” Well, he knows not to put anything past me after that because I found a monkey and we literally have a little squirrel monkey. His name is Rocko and we have a Maltipoo whose name is Remi. 

So the week after we got our monkey, that’s when we found out we were pregnant again. I was like, “Now we have a monkey and this puppy and now we’re going to have a baby.” That’s how life goes. If you know me, that’s just how my life goes. It’s just like, the more fun, the better. 

Anyway, so I was pregnant with the second one. I also had a subchorionic hematoma in the beginning and Dr. Erin was like, “Okay, I know I told you not to worry about it last time but seriously it’s usually not a big deal.” But you know, you’re still worried because you have the same thinking. 

Meagan: Yeah, trigger back a little bit. 

Rachel: Exactly. So I was just a little worried about that, but I kept pressing forward. So then fast forward later, everything is healthy. Six months into the pregnancy, I found out that we got a great opportunity to move back to Pensacola which is where I’m from. It’s about six hours away from Gainesville. It’s near my home town. My parents live here. A pediatric dentist, Dr. Stu Bonnin was selling his dental practice in Pensacola so we decided to merge together and transition. 

I went there. I was probably about seven months pregnant when we moved to Pensacola. I was starting up. I’m seven months pregnant. I’m starting brand new seeing all of these patients I’m just getting to know. My husband started an orthodontic practice next door which is a dream come true. We have always wanted to do this. The doors opened up to where it could happen. Timing sometimes seems crazy but it just happened that way. 

I mean, I remember we moved here on December 24, 2020, so Christmas Eve. U-hauls are a lot cheaper then by the way. Our family had COVID so we weren’t going to go see them anyway. I remember waking up on Christmas Eve or Christmas Day morning and I was sleeping on an air mattress. We had just bought our house and moved everything in. I’m like, “Wow. What a whirlwind. This is crazy.” 

So we moved halfway through. I’m a new business owner. So then I started seeing patients at about eight months pregnant. I’m trying to establish rapport with my new patients. I just decided it was in their best interest to work up until my due date. I worked up until my due date. At this point, I had no knowledge of birthing a baby at all which is my fault. I should have researched everything but there was just a lot going on. 

Meagan: Yeah. Don’t put too much pressure on yourself there. 

Rachel: Knowing what I know now–

Meagan: You had a lot of juggling pieces. 

Rachel: I know. Plus I was like, “I don’t want to know how the baby gets here. I just want to know what to do after it gets here,” so I did a lot of Taking Cara Babies, reading how to get them to sleep through the night. I really wanted to breastfeed so I was focused on what to do when the baby gets here. 

Meagan: Which also is something that a lot of the time we forget to do. 

Rachel: I know. I know. It’s all hard. So I worked up until my due date. I was expecting to be two weeks late for some reason because I was two weeks late as a baby. My husband was two weeks late and we were both first babies. I’m like, “It’s going to be fine. I’ll probably just be a little late.” A week passed and I had found an OB here. They did the BPP thing, the biophysical profile. Everything had been healthy. Nothing was out of the ordinary. She started talking about inducing me because I had borderline low amniotic fluid. That’s the reason they gave me. 

So I guess amniotic fluid level from my understanding can be anywhere from 5 centimeters to 25 centimeters and mine was a 7. So she’s like, “It’s borderline low. The baby’s not in distress but the older your placenta gets, the more likely that you’ll have a stillbirth or you can have babies born with cerebral palsy and complications.”

Meagan: Big words, very big words. 

Rachel: Yeah. I’m like, “Oh my gosh, well I don’t want that.” I trust the doctor. I’m a doctor. I feel like I look out for people’s best interests. I mean, I know I just deal with baby teeth but I truly want the best for my patients so I know she was probably recommending the same thing. All of that is not untrue, but anyways. Knowing what I know now, I’m just like, “What in the world?” She recommended that I be induced because of the borderline low amniotic fluid and that the longer time passes by, the increased chance of stillbirth. 

Because I had done zero birth education, I had nothing to really guide my decision-making process and my husband wasn’t there because it was all COVID stuff. He couldn’t come to any of the appointments so I was making these decisions on my own. I was just like, “Okay. We’ll get induced. That’s fine.” I only had a month off for maternity leave anyways, so I’m like, “Okay. It’ll probably work out that the baby’s born more on time.” 

Meagan: That you’ll have some time. 

Rachel: Yeah, exactly. The day before, I just had this really bad feeling. I called the doctor’s office and I was like, “Hey, is there any way we can postpone the induction?” I was really nervous. They were like, “No. This is the only time. We don’t recommend that. This is the best thing.” I’m like, “Okay.” I got to the hospital. I started on, is it Cervadil?

Meagan: Yeah, Cervadil. 

Rachel: The insertion pill thing. 

Meagan: So the pill is Cytotec and then there’s the tampon-looking thing and that’s Cervadil. 

Rachel: Okay. I think that might have been what that was. So yeah. I did that. I got to 2 centimeters dilated and they started the Pitocin. So then after the Pitocin, it was a gentle induction. The doctor I went to I guess is known for gentle inductions so that was good. I got to 2 centimeters dilated. Our daughter’s name is Heidi. Her heart rate started dropping even this early on. I was only 2 centimeters dilated. Every time they turned the Pitocin up, it would drop. I was just like, “Just take me off of everything. Let’s just wait.” 

The OB came in and she’s like, “We’ve already had nonreassuring fetal heart rates.” I hope I’m using the correct words but I think that’s what it is. 

Meagan: Correct. 

Rachel: It’s just not looking good so we would recommend some kind of intervention at this point. I was like, “What about an epidural?” She was like, “Maybe you could use an epidural. It would help you relax and just speed things along.” So I got an epidural and then Heidi’s heart rate dropped again. This just kept happening and I will never forget. There was a younger nurse. The doctor wasn’t there. It was 2:00 AM and she came walking in the room. She said, “Hey, so the doctor just told us that we need to prep you for a C-section.” I’m just like, “What? A C-section? Excuse me? No one told me this was a possibility.” I had never even researched what that was. I never even knew that was a possibility. 

Meagan: A lot of us don’t. 

Rachel: I mean, I’m stupid for not realizing that is a possibility, but at the same time, you’re not planning on it. It’s just an unplanned surgery. 

Meagan: Yeah. We go in thinking we’re just going to have this baby which we do have a baby but we just don’t envision it that way. 

Rachel: I know. I just truly wanted what was best for my baby. 

Meagan: Absolutely. 

Rachel: If it meant a C-section to save her life, then obviously that’s what I would do but I was realizing this cascade of interventions was leading from one thing to another thing to another thing and I just was so upset. The OB got there and finally, my husband was like, “Whoa. Okay. What is going on here?” He talked to her and he was like, “Let’s just take her off of everything and see how her heart rate is.” We literally asked her. We were like, “Listen, if you think our baby is going to lose oxygen or something dangerous where it’s going to save her life to do a C-section, we will do a C-section, but if she is okay and we can work through–” the nurses were changing my position and the heart rate would get better. 

Sometimes I think the cord can just get compressed or things like that. She literally looked at us. I was really upset. I don’t even know what I said. I was just really upset. But she looked at us and she was like, “Okay, yeah. The heart rate looks great. You’re doing great. I’m okay with that. Let’s just give it a little bit longer.” It was probably another 12 hours that we had done that. Long story short, the same thing happened again and after she gave me time, and at that point, I think I had progressed to 6 centimeters. I was like, “Okay, we’re going to have this baby. This is looking good.” Even the nurse said that it was looking good. 

I think the final thing that happened is that I started running a fever and then when I ran a fever, the heart rate shot up and it was super high. Yeah, she was tachycardic. I’m like, “Yeah, she is not looking good.” At this point, it’s been 72 hours. I mean, I have so many fluids. I’ve been on an IV. So we were like, “Okay, we really need to do this.” I was kind of expecting it at that point even though I was super upset and super sad. 

I was just kind of waving my little white flag. We did what we could and they prepped me for a C-section. It was the craziest thing I’ve ever experienced because everything went really well with the C-section. The OB was great with the C-section. All of the team was really fast. I kept saying, “I can still feel some pressure. Give me some more medicine. More, more, more.” I was so numb that my intercostal muscles were numb all the way up into my chest so it was kind of hard to breathe. I knew it was just because my muscles were numb so I was okay with it. 

It was so crazy because I was so happy. I heard my daughter cry so I knew she was healthy. I knew she was there. It was the best moment ever but at the same time, you’re sad. Everybody that has talked on this podcast, you know the feeling of where you’re so happy. Your baby is here. You’re healthy. There could be way worse other things, but at the same time, it’s just that this was not what I was expecting. It’s crazy. 

Anyway, she had to go to the NICU because there was fluid in her lungs so she had to have help with oxygen and then she had to get IV antibiotics because there was suspected chorioamnionitis. 

Meagan: Because of the fever? 

Rachel: Yeah, because of the fever. So it wasn’t proven, but they go ahead and put the baby on antibiotics before the results get back from pathology because it takes a while so they want to go ahead and get them on antibiotics just in case. It came back and it wasn’t chorio so she had unnecessary antibiotics. But I get it. You have to have certain protocols in place. So she had to have that. 

She was in the NICU for just a couple of days. It wasn’t bad. I was able to breastfeed. It was a struggle. You have to really make sure you’re on a strict schedule when your baby is in the NICU. You have to go feed them and pump especially when your milk is coming in. So that was hard but we were able to do the breastfeeding which is good. 

Oh, Heidi had a lot of donor milk in the NICU because it was good that they gave her donor milk. I always joke around. I’m like, “She’s going to have the best immune system because of all of the donor milk that she got.” Side note, whoever donates breastmilk, you guys are amazing. I just cannot believe that is a thing, so thank you to whoever donated breastmilk.

Fast forward to the follow-up, everything is looking good after the C-section. Heidi is doing great. I’m so happy. I wanted to share this. I don’t know if a lot of people have ever experienced this but I talked to my provider. I mean, I really liked her other than she suggested the induction. I just really wasn’t that on board but she was like, “Yeah. In the future, you will definitely be a candidate for a VBAC.” 

But then I got this letter in the mail. I’m just going to read it. It says, 

“Dear Rachel, 

The patient/physician relationship is important in providing quality care. I feel your unacceptable behavior toward me and the hospital staff as well as your unwillingness to follow my recommendations for your safety and the safety of your baby has jeopardized our relationship. Therefore, this letter serves to notify you that I will not continue to be your provider.”

Meagan: What?

Rachel: I was so, so sad because I thought I followed her recommendation. She thinks I put my baby at jeopardy. If she thought my baby was at jeopardy, she should have told me that I should have had the C-section earlier. I just was so sad. I, as a physician, I’m not a physician but I’m a dentist and all of my patients, I try to give them both sides to everything. Not everybody is as informed as I am about teeth. Duh, we all don’t know. That’s why you go to a doctor for advice. 

Meagan: That’s why you go to a specialist. 

Rachel: I try to give everybody two sides. I try to inform them and then they make the decision. I don’t ever want to force someone into doing something that they don’t want to do but also if someone doesn’t take my recommendation, I’m not going to say, “Okay, you’re dismissed from my practice.” I get that some people just don’t feel comfortable treating certain people which is fine. I’m not bitter about that but I was super floored that she would dismiss me as a patient because I didn’t take her recommendation to get a C-section in the first place. 

Meagan: You did and then you had a conversation and she said, “Yeah, I’m totally fine with it. Let’s keep going.”

Rachel: I had a doula with me, Ashley Andrews, she is amazing. She is my prayer warrior doula. She even said, “I don’t think you’re out of line, Rachel. I’m really confused.” 

Meagan: I’m sorry. 

Rachel: Anyways, not to harp on that but it was really sad. It was really for the best because I started looking at other providers anyway because I knew I wanted another baby. Okay, so here’s the good part of the story. Dun, dun, dun. 

Nine months later, we found out we were having another baby. This time, it was a boy so I found a different provider in Pensacola that was okay with VBAC. It’s really hard surprisingly to find someone that is super on board. It really is up to you to do the research and all of that. We have doctors. People think doctors are there to give you a magic pill and everything is solved. Doctors can’t do anything if you don’t make an effort on your end too. I feel like that’s why there is so much diabetes and all of these things because you have to do some kind of work on your end too to educate yourself and realize that you can’t just go to a doctor and expect them to fix all of your problems. 

I realized that and I’m like, “Okay, that’s in every situation. I have to become educated myself.” I found you guys. I listened to your VBAC podcast literally every single day at lunch and I would cry on my lunch break. I’m such a loser. 

Meagan: You are not. These stories are amazing. 

Rachel: I would listen to these stories and I would just cry. I’m like, “Wow. This is so awesome.” My husband, I love him. He’s so sweet. He’s like, “You guys should make a podcast for husbands on how to deal with their wives when they have decided that they are going to have a VBAC,” because he’s like, “All right, I’ve already accepted all of this stuff. It’s fine.” 

Anyways, at 20 weeks I was diagnosed with complete placenta previa, not just partial. The placenta is completely covering your cervix. My OB here in Pensacola, the new one, was like, “It’s highly unlikely that this is going to move. It’s complete. It’s very rare.” He started talking about placenta accreta and how sometimes it can even grow into the C-section scar and grow out into your bladder and stuff. I’m like, “Whoa.” 

I was so sad. I’m like, “Y’all, okay. I guess I’ll just have another C-section. This is fine.” But then I was like, “Okay. God, you said in the Bible.” Matthew 17:20 says, “If you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there’ and it will move and nothing will be impossible.” I’m like, “God if you can move mountains, I know that you can move this placenta. I know that nothing is impossible for you.” I just started praying. In the meantime, my sister who lives in Jacksonville had this great practice that helped her with her delivery. Full Circle Women’s Care, I highly recommend. I also talked to a friend, Saundra Fetner, who had a VBAC with them. I talked to her about it and she was like, “Yes. You need to go there.” 

I had a Zoom conference or a telemedicine conference with Dr. Adams. She is the owner there, the OB there. She was like, “Okay, yeah. We even have some missionaries that will be in Africa and then fly here and deliver their baby here and go back.” She was like, “If you want to deliver here, that would be fine with me. You just see your provider in Pensacola and then when it gets time, you just make arrangements to stay in Jacksonville until you have the baby.” 

Meagan: Dual care. 

Rachel: Yeah, exactly. I was like, “If something crazy happens in Pensacola, then I have the provider here.” I talked to my provider here and he was completely okay with it. He was like, “Well, with the placenta previa, you might want to try to rent a private jet so you can get there really quick.” I’m like, “Okay, that’s not going to happen but whatever.” He was okay with it. I didn’t care. Dr. Adams by the way, just has such passion for what she does. If you don’t have passion for what you do and you don’t enjoy it, why are you doing it? She actually had a C-section with her first baby and she’s an OB. 

So she’s like, “I understand how medicine is there if you need it, but sometimes you need to let your body do what it was created to do.” I was like, “Oh my gosh, yes girl. Preach, preach. I’m going to come see you. I don’t care that I have to drive six hours. I’m going to come here.” I scheduled a follow-up. Granted, it had only been two weeks since I had been diagnosed with placenta previa. 

Coming to the follow-up, I had another ultrasound and all of that at Full Circle Women’s Care. My first appointment, my sister went with me and we were like, “Let’s just not say anything. Let’s not say that I had placenta previa. Let’s just see what they say.” The ultrasound tech looked at everything and she was like, “Yeah, everything looks great. Your baby’s healthy. We just might need to get one more little position of the head when you come back.” I’m like, “What?” So then I’m like, “Okay, well you don’t see placenta previa or anything going on?” She’s like, “No. The placenta is way over here. This is the placenta here. This is your cervix here. There’s no placenta previa.” I’m like, “Oh my gosh.” My mom had been praying. My dad, my mother-in-law, Angie. 

I’m like, “Y’all, you will not guess what just happened.” I sound so crazy but I’m like, “God moved my placenta.” I even had Ashley, my doula, had her Sunday School group. She was like, “Girl, we’ve been praying for you.” I know that’s not the story with everybody, but it’s just so crazy. I really do believe that and I’m just so thankful. I had my appointment with Carol, one of the midwives and she’s like, “Yeah, everything looks great. You’re due around September. We’re going to do everything we can to help you have a successful VBAC.” I’m like, “Okay, Carol. You promise I don’t have placenta previa?” She’s like, “What are you talking about sweetie? Your placenta is far away from the cervix.” I couldn’t believe that it was the case. 

I had this regained energy and excitement. We were back on track. Let’s do it. Then a couple of weeks later, I met with Dr. Adams and it’s a group so you meet with different people because you don’t know who’s going to deliver you. Everyone I saw, I’m like, “If you deliver me, I don’t care. Everyone is great. Fantastic.” I met with Dr. Adams and she’s like, “You know, there’s this thing that you can read.” It is a recommendation for TOLAC or how to have a successful VBAC and how to ripen your cervix. She had all of the guidelines there. She was like, “Have you been following the guidelines? Have you been doing your daily squats to open up your pelvis and doing the specific Spinning Babies exercises to get the baby in the right position?” I’m like, “Yeah, I’ve been doing my squats.” 

She’s like, “Let me see you do 20 squats right now.” This is at my OB appointment. I’m like, “Okay.” She’s holding my hands and doing squats with me at the appointment talking to me about what I need to do. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh, I love that. 

Rachel: I’m just like, “This is awesome.” Anyway, she really practices what she preaches. She’s like, “All right, then let me see you do some squats.” So I did that. Also, going back so for Valentine’s Day of last year, instead of giving me chocolates and stuff, my husband printed off the recommendations that they gave me. I’m like, “You don’t care about this as much as I do. I wish you could just know what I’m going through.” He’s like, “Okay, Rachel.” He printed off the guidelines of how to have a successful VBAC and he highlighted all of the things. 

This is on the OB’s website, How to Have Your Cervix Ripened Before Birth. These were the things you needed to do. At 20 weeks, drink red raspberry leaf tea. At 36 weeks, do acupressure, acupuncture, and chiropractic care. At 37 weeks, start taking evening primrose oil. At 38 weeks, start using clary sage oil and do birth stimulation, sex, and all of that stuff. At 39 weeks, you can do membrane stripping. He’s just so funny because he even bought all of these things. He’s like, “Are you drinking red raspberry leaf tea? Is it 36 weeks yet because that’s when you need to start going to a chiropractor.” 

That was awesome. I was just doing everything. I wasn’t perfect. I tried to eat healthier and all of that stuff. You do what you can but I work full time. At the end of the day, we’re not perfect but I tried to do all of those things. I did that. I found a doula in Jacksonville and she helped me through Hypnobabies. It is super interesting because your mind really can help you control pain. It’s so crazy. It really can. I even want to look into this for my patients. I think it would be so cool if you could learn to hypnotize. Dentistry is scary, especially for kids so I’m always looking for new things to try. 

Okay, so we go to Jacksonville. I was due September 29th. I took a week off early from work. We closed the dental clinic down. I had a dentist that’s working for me too, Dr. Bonnin and he’s awesome. Thank you for working for me on maternity leave. I closed for a week. We just went to Jacksonville. We had a little mini vacay. We took Heidi. I feel like it was so much just to spend time with me and Edwin with my daughter for a straight week in a really long time and focus just on our family. We have had a lot going on up until then so it was a nice little breather away. 

Meagan: That’s such a beautiful way to spend the end of pregnancy. 

Rachel: I know. 

Meagan: Sometimes in the end of pregnancy, we’re so stressed. We’re getting a lot of pressure from the outside world or from whoever. Why haven’t you had your baby yet or why haven’t you been induced? So it’s nice to just be with your family and create this space going into it. 

Rachel: Yeah, it really was. It was such a blessing that we were able to do that. I didn’t have to worry about, “Okay, let me do the last-minute touches on the nursery.” It was just relaxing. So I’m like, “Okay, for sure this baby is going to come soon.” I’m super relaxed. I saw a shooting star. I’m like, “All right. It’s going to happen.” It didn’t. A week passed so I’m already a week later and then I think I was 41 and a few days. 

I had the BPP again and they start doing the monitor thing. They just do the heart rate monitor. 

Meagan: Oh, a non-stress test? 

Rachel: A non-stress test just to make sure everything is good. They kept saying, “Everything is good but we are going to keep seeing you back.” They weren’t letting me go very long. 

Meagan: It’s very standard doing NSTs at 41 weeks, very standard. 

Rachel: Yeah, okay. They were just doing all of the things to make sure everything was good. But Dr. Adams was like, “I know you want to go into spontaneous labor on your own. If you’re not by 42 weeks,” and she was one to wait up until 42 weeks to do an induction. She’s like, “We’ll do a super gentle induction. We’ll start with breast stimulation. We won’t even go to Pitocin or anything.” I didn’t even want to hear the word induction so I’m like, “Okay.” But she was great because she allowed me all the way up until two weeks to schedule the induction whereas for some people, it just depends on the hospital scheduling and that’s where modern medicine is sad because you have to do the schedule and your body’s not on a schedule. 

Your due date is just a guess date. I mean, Jane, the doula in Jacksonville is like, “So what’s your guess date?” because it is. We try to do what we can but at the end of the day, sometimes you just have to let nature take its course. 

Anyway, so I talked to Dr. Adams and everything was good. I was trying to go into labor on my own. My best friend from dental school, Jackie, actually had premature contractions at 32 weeks so her doctor was telling her all of the things she needs to do to not go into labor and I was trying to do all of the things that they told her the opposite. I’m like, “Okay, what did your doctor say? Okay, I need to do that.” It just goes to show you that getting babies on this earth is just hard no matter what way you look at it but if you’re educated, it’s a lot easier. 

Hurricane Ian was brewing up and we had to move from our hotel because our hotel was on the beach and they were like, “We are going to have to evacuate the hotel because a hurricane is coming.” I’m like, “Oh, this baby is for sure coming. It’s a hurricane.” It didn’t. The hurricane came and went. I even drank midwives’ brew and all of that stuff. 

I was 41 and 5 days or something like that. Our daughter, Heidi, got really sick. She contracted something while we were there. She was throwing up. She couldn’t keep anything down. My husband was getting a little bit antsy. My husband was like, “I have a lot of stuff I need to work on at home. Why don’t you just stay here with your sister? I’ll take Heidi home and I’ll come back when you go into labor.” I was like, “Okay, sounds good.” He took Heidi home. She actually couldn’t keep anything down when he got home. Home was in Pensacola so it was six hours away from Jacksonville.

He drove home and she actually had to be admitted to the ER because she had to get an IV and all of that stuff. I’m just like, “Oh my gosh. My daughter is in the hospital.” I feel guilty because I’ve been focusing on myself and making sure I don’t have a C-section meanwhile my daughter is at home in the ER. I was thinking about, “I’m just going to go home. I’ll just be induced again.” You just want what’s best for your babies. That’s why we’re here. That’s why we try to avoid C-sections when we can but have them when it’s going to save our babies’ lives. We just want what’s best for our babies so I just felt so guilty that I wasn’t there with her. 

But anyway, she was fine. I finally went to Dr. Adams again. It was the first time I had a check. She said, “Okay, you’re 2-3 centimeters dilated.” I’m like, “Why am I not in labor right now?” I was 2 centimeters dilated at the hospital a couple of hours in. So anyways, she’s like, “You are super favorable. You are 2 centimeters dilated. You’re at whatever plus station where your baby is really low.” She’s like, “I’m surprised you’re not in labor right now. All you’re waiting on is for this baby to say, ‘Okay, it’s time for me to come into the world.’” 

I mean, we just don’t know. That’s why medicine still has some mysteries to it. You just don’t know what puts someone into labor. Anyways, she did a membrane strip which was great. Membrane stripping, is that what it’s called? Membrane sweep. 

Meagan: Yeah, a stripping or a sweep. 

Rachel: She’s like, “Okay.” We had the induction scheduled for that Thursday and it was a Monday. She’s like, “Rachel, you’re going to have this baby. You’re not going to have to be induced. We have it scheduled just in case but you are going to go into labor on your own.” I’m like, “I really hope you’re right.” I went home. My sister and I went to a coffee shop and we just relaxed for a little bit and then we went home. We were going to see a movie. My brother lives in Jacksonville too. Me, my sister and my brother were going to see a movie together. He happened to be off work. It was crazy. 

We’re getting ready and then I start having some Braxton Hicks stuff but some contractions. Anyways, it really progressed and it started getting uncomfortable. I didn’t know. I thought, “Okay.” We contacted our doula. We met her at the hospital. She was like, “Do y’all really think y’all should go to the hospital?” I was having trouble breathing through everything. I was like, “I don’t know. It might just be Braxton Hicks.” 

We got to the hospital. I couldn’t breathe through it very well so then Jane, our doula, was like, “Okay. Let’s just go to the hospital and get checked.” I’m getting scared. “No, they’re going to trap me. They’re going to make me stay and I’m going to have to get a C-section again.” She’s like, “Rachel, no. That’s not true.” I’ve got my birth posse with me. We go in. They checked me and I was only at a 4. I’m like, “What the heck? I’m such a woosie. I’m only at a 4?” 

I’m like, “Let’s just go back home.” Carol was there, the midwife that I really had a good connection with and she’s like, “Rachel, I really don’t recommend you going home. I really think that things are progressing quickly. You should stay here and just relax.” Then I talked to my husband too. 

Meagan: Make your drive. 

Rachel: As soon as I got admitted to the hospital, Heidi actually got dismissed so he’s like, “We’ve got two babies heading out.” I’m like, “You’re such a nerd.” He’s like, “Rachel, stay at the hospital. You’re being crazy. Just relax. Do your Hypnobabies thing and I’ll be there.” I did that and it was crazy. As soon as I zoned everybody out and put my little headphones on– 

Meagan: And acclimated to the space.

Rachel: Yeah, exactly. I had time to get acclimated. I was like, “Okay. This is going to be okay. This baby is coming.” I just relaxed and then things started getting a little cray cray during transition. Yeah. Now I know what people talk about with that. Also, I didn’t have an epidural because I’m like, “No. They slow things down. I do not want to get an epidural.” Yeah. So that was great and then the transition thing. 

Okay, things started getting really serious. My sister was there with me because my husband couldn’t be there. I had my sister and a doula. I was like, “Sarah, why did you talk me into this? This is so stupid. I can’t believe I’m doing this. This is the dumbest thing ever.” Then Jane was like, “Okay, I think she’s ready.” 

Meagan: Usually when there is intense talk and doubt kicks in, it’s like, “I think it’s happening right now.” 

Rachel: Exactly. So then Carol came in. She checked me. I was 9.5. I had a little cervical lip and I was like, “Oh my gosh. No. I cannot believe it.” I was just like, “How in the world?” Carol was like, “Okay, I think your husband is almost here so we can wait to pull the cervical lip out of the way.” I’m like, “No. We are not doing that!” I’m not waiting. He should have been here a little bit ago.

Anyway, so we did that. I’m about to start pushing. My brother was there at the hospital. He met my husband out in the hospital parking lot and they were literally sprinting. They were like, “Okay, your baby is about to be born. Here you are.” Luke led him to the exact room. Edwin comes in. He has a backward baseball cap on. I’m like, “They’re going to think you’re a crazy person coming in here.” They’re like, “Is this the baby daddy? Okay, come in here.” 

I was pushing and I’m like, “Oh my gosh. The baby is going to get stuck,” because I’ve heard stories that the baby is going to get stuck at 10 centimeters. Carol was so amazing. By the way, she has a British accent. She’s from Africa and she’s the coolest person ever. She’s like, “Rachel, you are doing it. You’re about to have this baby.” I’m like, “No way. Are you serious?” 

At that moment, she’s like, “Rachel, you’re having this baby. This is happening. It’s too late to turn back. He’s not getting stuck.” I’m crying. I’m like, “This is the best feeling ever.” He was born. He’s healthy. He’s here. I’m healthy and this is how things are supposed to happen. It was the most amazing thing ever. You just can’t explain it. I’m just like, “Oh my gosh.” I just can’t believe that it actually happened and everything was great. 

The births were such polar opposites. No one's birth is less important than the other. I don’t ever want my daughter to think, “Oh my gosh. I was a failure birth, and then baby John–”. His name is John Edwin Richard the Third and then John was a regular birth. It’s not about that. It’s just how God can take our pain and our failures that we have and turn beauty from ashes. That is what happened. This is how it’s supposed to be. It was the best feeling in the whole world. I was just so thankful. I can’t believe my husband made it there. I didn’t think he was but he did. 

Meagan: So close. 

Rachel: Yeah. I was like, “Oh my gosh.” I do want to say that I’m not trying to diss C-sections. You need it when you can but who you have as a provider is the most important thing. I trusted them and I knew that if she had recommended that I needed a C-section I was going to say, “Okay. I know that I’ve tried everything I can. I’m going to trust you guys.” 

She even said, “The position of the baby is the most important thing.” Baby has to be in the right position to do that. So anyway, it was just the most beautiful thing ever. I’m just so thankful for everything. 

Meagan: Oh my goodness. It’s such a beautiful story honestly from all of it, from the dove in the yard flying away to moving and driving six hours away. Those are hard decisions sometimes to make and sometimes dual care is really hard too because sometimes you will have providers disagreeing with the other provider so that’s really hard. But so beautiful. I could see the emotion and I could hear the emotion in your face. You’re so happy. It sounds just so beautiful. 

Rachel: I know. It’s amazing. It’s the best. 

Meagan: Well, thank you. I do want to talk about that placenta previa because it’s interesting to go from being diagnosed with complete previa to so far away. That’s a miracle. It’s so crazy but a lot of the time, we hear diagnoses of full placenta previa so I wanted to talk about what that is. You mentioned accreta too but previa is where it covers the cervix. To diagnose complete previa, it should be directly over the innermost side, so the OS. Directly over the canal of the uterus which is the cervix. So with pregnancies 16 weeks or more when this is happening, sometimes they’re diagnosed with a low-lying. 

Low lying is when it’s really, really close or the edge is less than 20 millimeters away from the OS, the cervix. 20 millimeters is 1 inch or 2 centimeters. Usually, most providers when it’s 20 or more are totally okay and comfortable with that. One of the interesting things, and I’m curious how you had yours, but a transvaginal ultrasound to diagnose the placenta previa has a way higher chance of it actually being accurate than an abdominal. Did you have an abdominal?

Rachel: It was transvaginal, yes. 

Meagan: It was. 

Rachel: Yes. On both, yeah. 

Meagan: See? Look at that. That’s so amazing. If someone is diagnosing you with previa on the abdominal outside, you can also request a transvaginal because that can bring higher accuracy. If we get diagnosed and there are placenta issues within the pregnancy, then sometimes they will suggest a 34-36 week induction so that’s another thing and then if there aren’t any complications, sometimes it’s 36-37. 

So just for those who have been diagnosed. I also want to mention that a lot of the time when we have low lying or something like that, it does move throughout pregnancy. 

Rachel: Yeah, and usually it does take a lot longer than that. I did so much research too. So yeah, just like what you were saying, and if it does migrate upwards, it never will migrate back down because your uterus is growing up, not down. It all is about where the placenta attaches to the uterus. It’s this tissue and you can’t help it. It’s when the baby is conceived, that it attaches. I had a D&C and a C-section which can increase the risk of it. 

I had a friend that was diagnosed with it and she even had some bleeding. She almost had to have a C-section but it had migrated more than what did you say it was? 

Meagan: 20 millimeters, 1 inch, or 2 centimeters. 

Rachel: Yeah, she said it was 3 centimeters so her provider was letting her go. I’m not saying that everybody’s just miraculously moves all of the time but the chances are pretty good that it’s going to move. If your provider says that you need a C-section, just maybe give it some time. Everybody is different. 

Meagan: Yeah. Well, yeah. I think it’s just something that a lot of the time we don’t talk about, placenta previa. It can be really scary when you hear at 20 weeks, “Hey, you’ve got this possible placenta previa or low lying and you might have to have a C-section,” so at 20 weeks we’re hearing, “I might have to have a C-section,” and it immediately starts making our wheels turn. 

Rachel: It does. It’s crazy. 

Meagan: And then last of all, I really want to talk about teeth. 

Rachel: Yeah, teeth. 

Meagan: Our pearly whites. So obviously, you’re a pediatric dentist and one of the interesting things that you have found that we didn’t realize is that C-sections can affect enamel. 

Rachel: Yes, it can. If you think about it, at about six months in utero is when the baby teeth are starting to develop. Anything that happens, if the mom gets a fever or you don’t have the certain Vitamins A, C, D, or E which are really important for your teeth to mineralize and you don’t have the certain minerals, then your teeth can be a little bit weaker when you are born. 

All of these things in pregnancy affect the development of your teeth. Right at birth is when your adult molars, so you have four adult molars in the back and the front four on the top and the front four on the bottom. Right at birth is when those molars start to calcify. If you have, and I’m not saying that a C-section increases but it’s more of a correlation. It’s not a cause and effect. It’s a correlation. 

Meagan: It’s a correlation, yeah. 

Rachel: Yes. That’s observed if you have anything that happens right around the time of birth. With a C-section, sometimes the baby might be a little bit earlier. When you are born, you have things that happened at birth. The baby might be a little bit earlier. A C-section brings the baby earlier. Sometimes those things can affect the mineralization process of those six-year-old molars and the front four top teeth and the front four bottom teeth. It’s called molar incisor hypomineralization. If you have something like that, it’s just a really good idea to see a pediatric dentist. You can put sealants on it. Sealants can protect the adult molars from getting cavities and things like that to strengthen it. 

Also, being on antibiotics right at birth–

Meagan: That’s just what I was going to ask. What about antibiotics?

Rachel: Yeah. I’m not getting into the nitty-gritty of everything, but certain antibiotics are worse than others. Usually, the C-section has a higher chance of having to be in the NICU and taking antibiotics. That can affect the mineralization process of your molars. That in turn can cause them to be weaker which puts them at higher risk for cavities. It’s just so crazy that even a C-section can affect your teeth which is my small little bubble of medicine that I do. Even that can have a role. 

It’s not like if you have to have a C-section, you’re like, “Oh my gosh. My kid is going to have cavities forever.” It just puts you more at risk for that just like someone could be more at risk of being overweight but there are things that you can do through your diet and all of that to keep yourself healthy. It’s not an automatic thing. There are things you can do. Don’t drink juice and eat sugar. There are things you can do to keep cavities from forming. 

But yeah, at around that time is when everything is forming. It’s so crazy. 

Meagan: It’s just good to know.

Rachel: It is. It is. 

Meagan: Even if you’ve had a vaginal birth with a lot of antibiotics from Group B Strep or something like that, it’s good to just be aware. 

Rachel: Yes. It’s not necessarily with a C-section, but with antibiotics and stuff. 

Meagan: Awesome. 

Rachel: Oh my gosh. Awesome. You guys are the best. I love you. 

Meagan: We love you back and we are so honored that you wanted to share your story and touch the world around you.

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

Blyss Young is a seasoned home birth midwife who has so much knowledge, experience, and a special heart for VBAC. Blyss hosts her own podcast, Birthing Instincts, alongside her cohost Dr. Stuart Fischbein where they normalize physiologic birth outside of the hospital.

We asked our VBAC community what questions you have for a midwife who supports home births after Cesarean and Blyss has answers! 

You will leave feeling inspired, educated, supported, and loved for whatever your birthing choices may be after listening to this beautiful discussion. We absolutely adore Blyss and know you will too!

Additional Links

Blyss’ Website

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

The VBAC Link Facebook Community

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Meagan: Hello, hello women of strength. It is Wednesday. Actually, it’s Monday the day of this episode and we are coming at you with another Cesarean Awareness Episode. I am so excited to be doing extra episodes this month. Today we have our friend Blyss Young. You guys, if you don’t follow her and her podcast with Dr. Stu, you need to do that right now. Push pause and go find them because they are amazing. They are a wealth of knowledge. They just make me smile. I feel like every time I’m done listening to an episode, my face hurts because I’ve just been smiling. 

Really, though. I remember I fell in love with Blyss and Stu years and years ago. We’ve been so fortunate to have them on the podcast before and Blyss agreed today to be on the podcast blessing you again with her wealth of knowledge and answering some of your questions. We put out in The VBAC Link Community, “What questions do you have for a midwife?” and we got quite a few surrounding home birth. I know this might sound like a really heavy month of talking about home birth because Julie and I got a little salt at the beginning of April talking about a home birth but it’s just such an important topic that a lot of people don’t know is an option. 

So we’re excited to dive into today’s episode with cute Blyss but of course, I have a review of the week that I would like to read. The title says, “Thank You” and it’s from cara05. It says, “I just wanted to drop a review and say thank you. Because of listening to some of your podcasts, I felt empowered to talk to my OBGYN about skipping the repeat Cesarean in the event that I go past my due date. This was something I had in my head that I really wanted. Opting for induction to still try for a VBAC was important. She was and just over all of this so supportive.” 

Sorry, that was a little weird for me to read.

“She was so supportive of the idea and totally on board which helped me get more excited about championing–” Blyss, I can’t read this morning. Sorry, Cara. “--this VBAC so thank you.” Oh, man. This is where Julie always would come in handy. She would really read reviews really well. So going on and having her VBAC. Congrats, Cara, for feeling empowered and that you were able to talk to your OBGYN. This is something that is so important whether you are a VBAC mom or not. We want to have a good relationship with our provider and we want to make sure that we can have those tough conversations. When they may be suggesting induction or a repeat Cesarean for going past your due date, but if something in your heart is telling you no or you are seeing the evidence and you’re like, “That doesn’t feel right,” have those conversations. I encourage you to have those conversations with your providers. 

I mean, is there anything that you would say to that as well with being a provider in the world? I feel like as a provider in my head, I would want someone to tell me their thoughts and feelings. 

Blyss: My relationship with my clients is very intimate. 

Meagan: It is. 

Blyss: Yeah. One of my teachers, Elizabeth Davis, who wrote Heart and Hand is a longtime midwife and teacher. She talks about the more we do prenatally, the less we have to do in labor. So I feel like that relationship that we have and hearing the internal landscape of the client is so important because when we are in labor, our body responds. Our hormones respond to feeling safe and having trust and being able to really relax. 

That’s true for every one of my clients but especially with my VBAC clients because they have another level of trauma many times that they are having to go with. That could be their experience that happened in the hospital or maybe they were transported from a home birth and had a Cesarean. And then there’s that level of, “Does my body really work? Can I trust my instincts?” So the more that we can dialog about those things and start to really pull that apart and work with them prenatally, I feel like the better chances we have in having that successful experience. 

Meagan: Yeah, absolutely. I will never forget it. I transferred to my midwife at 24 weeks with my third, my son, my VBAC baby. I just remember looking forward to those days when I got to go see my midwife because I would be feeling angst and hearing all of the static in the world. I remember just walking and she would always greet me with a hug and say, “How are you doing today? What do we need to talk about?” We talked. We dissected those fears and really talked about the things that were going through my mind at that time. I remember always leaving, going with a weight on my shoulders and leaving just feeling refreshed and more connected to her. 

Blyss: Yeah. 

Meagan: I think it’s important. I know that it’s hard in the system because we have providers that are restricted on time. They have so many patients. They’ve got bogged schedules. They’re tired so it’s a little harder for them to be more intimate, but I still encourage our listeners to have those conversations, to let them know where you’re at so like you said, you can work through it prenatally so that during the birth, those things aren’t coming up. We talk about that in our course. VBAC can be different and need more time prenatally. So yeah. If we don’t do those things ahead of time, it can definitely impact us during labor. 

Blyss: Yeah. You know, expect that kind of care. You’re not getting that kind of care if you’re not feeling the way that you just described when you leave your provider’s office. Start to think about what it is that you really want. I know not everybody has the option to either financially or because of availability be able to work with a midwife necessarily, but plan to have somebody on your team that you do feel can support you that way whether it’s a doula or maybe doing some concurrent care with a midwife in your area where she can hold the space for you and give you those positive feelings that can help prepare you for your delivery.

Meagan: Absolutely. Talking about that, I did dual care for just a little bit as I was debating a little bit and figuring out logistics. Just doing dual care made me feel so much better. I would go to one place and hear one thing and then go to the other and have to work through that. She did have the time and the resources to provide me with that comfort. I love it. 

Meagan: Okay, well like I said, we have some questions and I think they are really good questions from our listeners. We’ll just dive into those if you don’t mind and then feel free if we need to stagger away from them on any other topics or passions. This is one of the questions actually that was put in. We talked about this right before we jumped on. What is a CPM versus CNM or a licensed midwife? There are so many questions that people ask. There is a myth that CPMs are not qualified or able to handle VBAC and especially HBAC. I feel like this is the big myth. If you wouldn’t mind, could we debunk this a little bit? I don’t necessarily agree with that. 

Blyss: Yeah. I think it all comes down to what you feel aligns best with your values. Just so you understand a little bit about how we’re trained. Certified professional midwives, our licensing body is different across the United States. This is one of the problems with our systems whereas we look at other European countries where midwives are integrated into the medical system, we don’t really have it together in that way here in the States. The licensure is different from state to state depending on the local jurisdiction. 

CPMs’ certification is our national certification. I practice here in California so when I take my board exams, I’m licensed by the medical board. It’s the same licensing board that licenses OBs that gives me my exams. I take my exam and I take the CPM and the LM. That may not be the case across the country. We learn our bookwork and then we have an apprenticeship. We work side by side with midwives or doctors to learn our hands-on skills and then we take a board exam similar to many doctors and nurses and people like that who have this professional capacity. 

A CNM is a certified nurse midwife. They are licensed by the nursing board and they become nurses first and then have their specialty added to it of midwifery. As professional midwives, all we train for is out-of-hospital birth. That is our specialty. We specialize in low-risk, normal, healthy pregnant moms and their babies. A mom who has had previous Cesarean labor and delivers exactly the same as any other mom. They have an increased consideration because they have this scar so the integrity of risk has been affected but other than that, everything is exactly in terms of their pregnancy and their labor and delivery. 

We absolutely are champions for these moms being able to have and experience a vaginal delivery for the healing of all of that trauma that we talk about. And also because of your long-term health as a woman who is delivering maybe multiple babies in your lifetime, it’s actually much better for you to be able to have a vaginal delivery than to continue to go and have Cesareans. 

The benefits for the baby of being able to pass through the biome and have those mechanics that help empty their lungs as they are delivered and all of those things that the baby benefits from having physiologic birth. We are champions for that for these moms and for these families because we know. 

There are some things that we watch for in case there is a uterine rupture or dehiscence as we would say where the scar opens a little bit. There are things that will be a little bit different than a mom who has not had a previous surgery, but other than that, this mom is just a mom who is pregnant and wants to have her baby. So we’re absolutely skilled to be able to support that. 

If you look at the statistics of success because a mom who has had a previous Cesarean is a TOLAC. She is desiring to have a trial of labor after a Cesarean. I lost my train of thought. 

Meagan: You are just fine. You were just talking about uterine rupture. We have a small increased risk but we are just having a baby as well so at home we have to pay attention to uterine rupture and dehiscence and things like that. There are signs and then you were going to the statistics. 

Blyss: Yeah, there are signs that we are skilled to be able to look for. 

Meagan: Yeah. Statistically, uterine rupture happens at 0.4-1%. It’s pretty minimal but having someone who is trained in out-of-hospital birth is a little bit different but it doesn’t mean that anyone is less qualified to support someone giving birth after having a previous Cesarean or previous Cesarean. 

Blyss: Oh, yeah. So what I was going to say and where I lost my train of thought was the statistics in terms of success so actually having that vaginal delivery is much higher out of the hospital with a midwife than it is in the hospital. That is something to consider as well. If that’s your desire, you want to put yourself in a situation where you’re going to have the best possible support to be able to have the vaginal birth that you are desiring. 

Meagan: Absolutely. That’s what Julie and I spoke about at the beginning of April kicking this special episode series of home birth and the chances of success outside of the hospital. We talked about how I want to say it was 18% of people may transfer. Tell me if you know the stat. I think it was 18 or so percent. But within that 18% of transfers, it was usually exhaustion, needing an epidural, or maybe we’ve got some scar tissue or something that we can’t work through, it’s a failure to progress, and maybe we need something else if we can’t get a homeopathic way to work. I want to say that was what we found. Is that approximately what you would say?

Blyss: That’s not my statistic. 

Meagan: Well, yeah. Your statistic is low.

Blyss: I would say for a mom attempting to have a vaginal delivery after a Cesarean is the same statistic as a mom who is attempting a first-time delivery. We treat them in the same way in a lot of ways because they haven’t had that pushing phase. They haven’t pushed a baby out. Their labor depending on how far they dilated in their previous labors is going to give us some information as well. 

If a woman got all the way to 10 and was pushing her baby out and then they for whatever reason decided that a Cesarean was appropriate, her labor is going to be more like a multip, so someone who has labored except for that pushing phase. And someone who maybe didn’t ever get to have labor– you’re raising your hand. 

Meagan: Yep. 

Blyss: Or I think one of the questions that is coming up is that you only dilated to so far and you’re not sure if you’re going to be able to get past that point? Those moms are going to be treated more similarly to a mom who has never had labor before. We are going to support them in that way. 

You have to really, I think this is what we don’t understand. A lot of the studies and statistics that are done when you’re looking things up or hearing about things are from a medical perspective. They’re from medical perspectives. The way that they treat– and I was a doula for many years before I owned a center. I was a doula for many years before I started doing a private home birth practice. I know what it looks like in the hospital to support a VBAC. I’ve been there with them. Your provider and their faith in you and the way that you are treated by the nursing staff and all of that has a huge impact on your ability to be able to labor and progress normally. 

We are mammals so our bodies are going to respond the same way a cat or a dog or a cow who wants to go and be off by themselves and have privacy and not feel like they’re being watched. Your hormones respond to that. Labor moving straightforwardly in a normal way is affected by you feeling that way. That’s what I was saying when we were talking about the different licensure. It really depends on where you’re going to feel the most comfortable but you want to have a team that really believes in you and makes you feel, as we were talking about in the beginning, relaxed, comfortable, and empowered because those are the things that are going to affect your body progressing normally. 

Meagan: Absolutely. Absolutely. As a doula, I’ve supported VBAC clients both in and out of the hospital but there are times where there is a lot of pressure and angst that is created. That is not helping our labor. Julie and I mentioned it in our episode. We have to think about it like we wouldn’t give birth in the same place where we conceived. We don’t conceive in front of a whole bunch of people with bright lights on a bed with things strapped to our bodies, right? 

Blyss: Right. 

Meagan: But then we do give birth this way. It’s just something to be mindful of for sure. 

Blyss: I didn’t get a chance to say that my statistics for first-time moms are a little bit higher than for moms who have already had a vaginal delivery. That statistic is about 10%. As you pointed out, the majority of those are not emergent transports. Those are transports where we are ready for something a little bit different. Again, this is when even midwives have a different level of comfort in terms of how they care for you. 

I don’t transfer someone to the hospital because I’m ready for them to go. I transfer people to the hospital unless there is a medical indication. If there’s a medical indication then obviously, I’m like, “Okay, we need to go,” but in terms of this exhaustion and wanting something different and maybe wanting to rest and get an epidural or get access to Pitocin to augment the labor, those kinds of things, for me, if everything is looking great medically, then this is the mom’s choice. This is not something that I’m going to make that decision for her. 

I had a mom the other day. This didn’t happen to be a VBAC mom, but just in a normal labor. She had the pushing instinct. It went away. We labored with her for another nine hours because she had a lip and then she pushed her baby out. All of the doulas who were with us were talking about how if that happened in the hospital, that mom probably would have definitely been augmented, definitely not left alone, given a lot of pressure, a lot of vaginal exams, and then probably would have ended up having a Cesarean or a “failure to progress.” But what that mom needed was rest. She needed to eat. She needed to feel like she was ready for the next level of her labor. It was a very mental thing for her we believe. 

That’s not something that is always given either at home or in the hospital. Sometimes, especially, I was just talking to a VBAC mom right before we got on the phone because she went in to see if she could get a consult with a backup doctor in her local area. I sent her to the most common doctors that are supportive of transport. This doctor said, “No doctor in their right mind would back up a mom attempting to have a vaginal delivery at home.” And this is the best we’ve got. 

We got on the phone and we were talking about her feelings about all of that because she would really love to know if she’s going to have a repeat Cesarean, she would really like to know the person with who she’s having a Cesarean. 

Meagan: Totally. That’s one of the reasons why I did it. 

Blyss: Yeah. That’s a reasonable thing to desire but what she’s finding out is that she might not have that option and just being in that doctor’s office, she said that the nurse came in and said, “Can you take off your pants so we can do a pap smear?” She said, “I’m not coming in for a pap smear.” Just that was a perfect example of being treated like every other person and not being individualized. This woman was coming in for a consult. 

But it solidified her desire, “This is why I’m not going into the hospital again. If I need it, then it’s a good option but it’s not something that I’m feeling like I want to choose.” It’s just solidifying her desire to have this out-of-hospital experience. 

Meagan: Absolutely. I think for those who are doing dual care, it’s important to still learn the stats and the facts because they can sometimes inflate these numbers and these statistics then you are left thinking, “Wait, am I making the right choice?” My provider told me, “Good luck, no one is going to want you out there.” It was a little different than what she was told but very similar. No one was going to want me out there. It made me question, “Why? Am I that scary of a patient?” That’s just not a good feeling and it’s not how you should be feeling during pregnancy and especially not during birth. 

I’m going to lead into one of the first questions that were actually written. Why is there so much backlash around HBAC? When we were talking about backlash, I think it really just means so much hate and distrust about HBAC. I mean, do you find that a lot of people are coming to you saying, “Everyone’s telling me not to do this,” or maybe they’re even scared? I feel like maybe by the time they come to you, they are confident in their decision, but do you ever have any clients come to you who are still unsure?

Blyss: I think that people can be in care and still feel a little unsure. There is part of the process of just unraveling the experience that you had last time and being with somebody who consistently says, “Everything looks good. You’re doing great,” and just normalizing the experience of having a joyful pregnancy. The mom that I just talked to, she’s like, “There are risks in everything.” I think that’s true too. You can look at a statistic that says, “You have a 1% chance of having this happen,” and you can try and say, “I want to try and take that risk down to zero.” 

Obviously, there is risk in everything. You can’t have no risk, but there are people who look at it and go, “I have a 99% chance of having success.” 

Meagan: That’s what we say. Flip it and be like, “I have a 90.9 or 99% chance of full success.” It’s like, “Well, dang. That means I’m pretty high up there.” 

Blyss: Yeah. That’s probably how you look at life in general. So if you’re wanting to flip the script for yourself not just about this particular instance but about how you look at life in general because you talk about how the birth of your child is just one day. You’re actually going to be raising this baby and they’re going to have all kinds of risks. Do you want to spend the rest of that time with this child being worried all of the time about what possibly could happen or do you want to enjoy what life has in store for you? 

That’s a lifestyle thing, but you can have a transformative experience and you have this thing in your life that people are looking at. They are projecting onto you their own fear. You have the ability to ground yourself in your own belief about how you are wanting to take control of not just this delivery but your life in general. I think it can help you move into feeling more confident about your choices in general. 

Meagan: Absolutely. I think you just nailed it right there. A lot of the time, the people that are feeding the backlash are people that have experienced an unfortunate circumstance or have experienced something personal. They are feeding it out there to the world because that’s where they’re at. 

Blyss: Yeah, or not. Or they haven’t had any. 

Meagan: Or they haven’t. Exactly, yeah. 

Blyss: You know, I had a mom one time in my care who was attempting to have an HBAC. Her previous doctor was sending me the records. She was transferring out of care. She was like, “This is so dangerous. How are you going to know how the baby is doing? How are you going to know the signs?” She didn’t even know what we do at a home birth. She didn’t know that we monitor the baby, that we have all kinds of medications, and the ability to be able to manage things at home. I think a lot of times, there is just ignorance too. There is just not an understanding of the role that midwives play. We’re not doing a seance with our incense and our Birkenstocks and just hoping for the best. We actually have been trained to know what to look for. 

Because we do normal all day every day, that’s our specialty. When something is not normal, it stands out. It’s like a bad nook. You’re like, “Huh. This is not normal.” If there’s something going on with the mom’s uterus during labor and delivery, there are going to be signs. There’s going to be pain in between the contractions near the site that’s unusual. There might be bleeding that’s unusual. The baby’s heart tone might be unusual. The patterns of her labor might be a little bit funky. There are a lot of things that will stand out to us as “This is not normal labor progressing. Something is going on.” 

If you’re being conservative and it’s a question mark, “Huh. Does this mean that something is happening with the scar?” then you can conservatively transport to the hospital and be monitored continuously because we use intermittent monitoring. Maybe nothing. Maybe you’ll have a vaginal delivery at the hospital, but you have the ability to do that and not wait for something catastrophic to happen. You have plenty of time to get there and do the more conservative management of this labor just in case. 

Meagan: Right. One of the questions was, what are the stats of transfer for an emergency? Again, everyone’s stats might be a little bit different, but what she is saying is that there are signs that indicate a change of plan before there is a crazy emergency.

Blyss: Right. 

Meagan: I do think that what you are saying is that she didn’t know what the care was. It circles back to the backlash. I think that a lot of people don’t.My mom said some really crazy things. Years later, it wasn’t until I really understood the mental process of my mom and everything. She was saying those things out of fear, the unknown, and uncertainty. She didn’t know what out-of-hospital birth looked like because she only knew what Cesarean birth looked like. It’s so important to learn those things and learn those signs but know like Blyss said, that it’s not usually even just one. Blyss, you would know way more than I do. But from my experience, there are usually a couple of symptoms. It’s not usually one. It’s like, “Okay, we’ve got this, this, and this” or “We’ve got this happening. Let’s transfer. Let’s take a plan of action.”

Blyss: Yeah. You were talking about my cohost, Dr. Stuart Fischbein, and one of the things he says– he was a doctor in the hospital for many, many, many years and has now been providing out-of-the-hospital support for families for 12 years now. He has the benefit of both worlds. He talks about when we say that a uterus has a rupture, we imagine a tire bursting on the freeway where it’s all of a sudden a pop. But usually what it is, is what we call dehiscence. There’s a little opening in the uterus. Oftentimes, that can go without having any real incidence and the only way they would know that happened is if they went in and did another surgery. So a lot of times those things will heal on their own. 

I think you were saying there’s a 6.2% out of the people that do have a dehiscence or a rupture that have something really catastrophic that can happen. The statistics are really on your side but you have to be the one who makes that decision to say, “I would really just rather have another Cesarean,” or “I really want to try,” because there is such a high statistic of having success.

One of the things that I was saying to this mom earlier is what I notice and I would consider myself a specialist in VBAC. I really love caring for these women. One is because I feel like their options are limited especially in the area that I am in. There is actually a ban on VBACs in the local hospital where they would deny these women pain relief if they came in to try and have a vaginal delivery. The women in my area are driving 40 minutes to go to a hospital in another town to be able to have this support. I feel really honored to provide this option for people who desire that. It’s really important to me. 

And, I was transported in my first delivery and had a forceps, an instrument delivery. I didn’t end up having a C-section. But when I had my vaginal delivery on my own at home after that, the triumph of reclaiming my body and knowing that my body wasn’t broken and that it was just a mismanagement of my labor that led to that. I know what it’s like for these women to be able to have that redemptive birth after the surgery. 

What I notice with VBACs is that they’re totally straightforward and normal just like another mom giving birth which I talked about earlier or they come really fast. It’s like the uterus knows, “I can’t do this for very long. I need to be super effective.” I actually just had a woman who had a VBAC after two Cesareans with me and it was so fast that I didn’t make it. That’s how fast it was. I was so happy for her and her husband because he’s a paramedic and he caught the baby and it was absolutely amazing. I was on the phone and on my way there. 

All the work that we did to prepare her for this and she just popped that baby out like she had done it her whole life. Or we might have a labor that meanders. The uterus is wise in that way too. It’s like, “I need to be really conservative with my energy.” So you might have these contractions that are really far apart. Just like I did in that birth when I was telling you that we gave her nine hours to try to have that lip back, nothing was wrong. We weren’t getting any signs that anything was wrong. If you’re a mom attempting to have a vaginal birth after a Cesarean and you have labor like that, you want somebody with you who is going to honor and respect that your body is progressing, it’s just going to take a little bit longer because the integrity of that scar, the uterus knows, “I just need to be smart about this.” 

If you augment that labor or push that body past what it’s saying it can do, that’s when you can have a problem. 

Meagan: Yeah. I love that you said that because I was one of those where my uterus tinkered around for a little bit. I had a 42-hour-long labor. I was like, “This is never going to happen,” but it did and I’m so grateful for that. I think that’s just what my uterus needed. It needed to take its time and then it was 6-10 hours to get baby out really quickly. It just took a long time to get there. 

Blyss: You said you hadn’t had labor before, right? 

Meagan: I labored like a first-time mama. I only went to a 3. My water broke before contractions really started so it had to kick in. There was a lot. 

Blyss: Yeah, yeah. Sometimes first-time laborers can be that way. I tell my families to be prepared for three days. That’s normal. That’s normal labor for a first-time dilation and delivery. I don’t think that’s what you’re going to hear from a medical provider because they don’t know normal. They only know what they decide as being normal so most of those labors get augmented in some way. Either they’re induced or they give them Pitocin at some point or they just call it and say, “Your body’s not doing this so we’re just going to give you a Cesarean.” 

Meagan: Yeah. That’s what happened with my second. They were like, “Oh, it’s just not going to happen.” It hadn’t been very long. So it does happen. Another question was going into failure to progress. If we didn’t want to transfer and if there was no need to transfer but maybe we’re getting tired and we’re trying to progress at home, obviously we know time is our best friend. Time, trust, and faith in our body, and sometimes it is going to sleep, getting some food, and maybe doing a fear clearing. I truly believe, I’ve seen it so much through my own doula work and my own personal self and through the podcast and everything, that clearing your mental fears during labor can change our pattern just like that. It’s crazy. 

But for home birth midwives, are there things that they can do to help things progress? In the hospital, we talked about how you are more likely to be augmented with Pitocin or something like that. Maybe they’d break your water. But are there things that you can do out-of-hospital to avoid a transfer because it’s not really necessary at that point but to help progression if we’re starting to get tired and things like that?

Blyss: Well, I think that when you do have that scar, you want to be mindful of pushing the body like I said. I’m not against augmenting a VBAC but it’s something to really give really good informed consent and talk through. I would probably lean more toward, “Let’s sleep. Let’s take the pressure off. Let’s figure it out.” If you’re in early labor, sometimes you can take a Benadryl and maybe even have half a glass of wine. Sometimes that can help you sleep. If you’re in full-blown labor, it’s a little bit harder to do. 

But like you said, maybe having a conversation about, “Is there something that you’re afraid of? Are there people at birth that are nervous and that’s affecting you?” Sometimes you have too many people there too early. Your mind can be wanting to take care of those people like, “Gosh, this is taking forever. I feel bad that my midwife is here and that my mom is here.” Send people home. Keep one person there just in case, but clear it out. You can refresh the space. If you’ve been in labor at home for a long time, sometimes you just change the smells. Clean up a little bit. 

Meagan: Go outside. 

Blyss: Go outside. We send our mama outside barefoot in the grass in her backyard. Those things can be really healing. I send people on walks all of the time. I know it’s really hard. You don’t want to get your clothes on and go outside but this is going to be really good because it takes your mind off of it. Also, going back to that hormone flow, you want to increase oxytocin so do things that can do that. Maybe put on a funny movie and get distracted that way. Maybe you and your husband can go and get in the shower together. You can have a little bit of making out and a little bit of nipple stimulation. 

If your bag is intact, I know this sounds totally crazy, but I’ve had people actually have sex and it’s very effective. Or if you have a toy or something. I just saw a post the other day talking about how masturbating during labor can bring on the sensation of being able to relax a little bit more. 

Meagan: I’ve had a client do that. 

Blyss: Yeah, totally. 

Meagan: It totally worked. He did it for her but it totally worked. I was like, “I don’t know what you just did and I don’t need to know the details.” I was like, “Why don’t we all leave? Why don’t we grab some lunch? You guys do your thing.” We came back and it was business. Baby was coming. I mean, seriously, baby came three hours later. It can work, yeah. 

Blyss: Totally, 100%. One of the other things you can do is have a dance party. Change up the music. You don’t need the spa music and Hypnobirthing or something the whole time. Put on some fun music and laugh. Shake your booty a little bit. All of these things can be really helpful. Doesn’t that sound much better than laying in a hospital bed being monitored and strapped? 

Meagan: Or hooking up to a pump?

Blyss: Yeah. So facilitating oxytocin is another one that can be really, really helpful. But you know, midwives have homeopathy. We have herbs. Our big gun is castor oil. Those things can be utilized. I think it’s just a matter of really talking it through. The first thing I would always recommend is respecting the body and respecting that there’s a reason why it’s having a challenge. If labor really can’t get going and you’re really tired, then the hospital might be the appropriate place because that again might be your body telling you, “This may not feel the right way for my uterus. There might be something else going on that the uterus is protecting itself from working too hard and causing that scar to maybe not keep its integrity.” 

Meagan: Yeah. That’s a really good point. I want to talk about how you did transfer. You weren’t a VBAC. You have transferred. I want our listeners to know that if a transfer takes place, that’s okay. That is okay. You’re not failing because you left and changed your plan. There is no giving up because you decided that you wanted an epidural. There’s no failing in that. It doesn’t need to be negative is what I’m trying to say. A lot of the time, people writing in are a home birth turned Cesarean and feel totally deflated like they failed. That’s just not how it is. It’s not how it is. You are doing an amazing thing. You are birthing a baby. You are birthing a child out of your body. You are giving birth and you are becoming a mother to a human being. It doesn’t really matter how you do it or if the plan has to change but like Blyss said, sometimes we need to tune in and say, “What is our body saying right now?” Is our body saying that we need to do nothing? Is our body saying that we need to do something? 

I think that is one thing that we need to remember. I think sometimes too that people think, “Oh, home birth midwives will do everything they can to avoid a transfer.” I really disagree with that. Yes, they are going to help you get the birth that you want. They are going to do everything they can and they are passionate, but I’m telling you right now listeners, or an OB that helps at home too. We know that those exist with Stu and I think there are some others. They’re not going to just do something for themselves. They’re not just going to keep you. “You can’t leave. Nope. You can’t leave because you’re going to change my statistic.” It’s just not going to be. 

It’s important for you to remember that you are going to be safe. They are going to have these discussions with you and it’s okay for you to have those discussions if you’re feeling like you need to transfer. If your intuition is saying, “Something is not feeling right,” and not feeling like you are giving up, failing, or disappointing anybody because you’re not. You’re doing what’s best for you. 

Blyss: Yeah. Again, going back to the work that you do prenatally is going to really help you in labor. The more that you can tune into your own body and know what’s important to you and what you need as a sovereign person, the more you’re going to be able to tune into that in labor. You don’t want to be handing over your power to a provider. You want to be the one who is in charge of what’s happening to yourself. They may give you information and consult with you about how things are going from their expertise, but ultimately, it’s about you being the one who’s saying, “This is really what I want and this is what my body is telling me.” You don’t want to just wait until you get into labor to do that. You want to practice that throughout your whole pregnancy. I think that is a really important piece. 

And yep. Thank God we have medical advances. What I find with my clients is if we end up transferring, we’ve done all of these things. They’ve had great prenatal care. They’ve been able to talk and process all of these things. If they’re going to have a repeat Cesarean, what they would like to do differently this time that they learned from their last experience? So if they get to that point, they know that they did everything that they could to give themselves the best chances and they feel empowered throughout the process. I think that the most important thing is that you feel like you weren’t bullied or made to do something and that each step of the way, you are making a choice that feels right for you and your family. 

As human beings, we deserve that for everything. We deserve to be able to make these choices for ourselves. 

Meagan: Yeah, and I think with being able to make those choices and to feel that empowerment to be able to do that, even if the outcome isn’t what we planned on, we’re going to have an overall better view from that experience because we aren’t going to feel like birth happened to us. We’re more likely to feel like we were the active participant in our journey and the leader or the driver in the seat and have a better postpartum experience.

Blyss: Yeah. And welcome to life, right? 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Blyss: Our lives don’t turn out exactly the way that we planned. We ultimately have to meet life on life’s terms and know that we are not in control of every single thing that happens. It’s how you respond and how you move forward through a challenge that really makes you who you are and gives you the life experience that you want to have because labor and birth and being a mom is the greatest lesson in not being in control of things. It’s an important one. It’s a really important one. The only thing that you can really have control over is going in and deciding, “I’m going to deliver on this day and have a repeat Cesarean.” That is within your control. But if you are really wanting to trust your body and to have a physiologic birth experience, you have to be willing to let go of that control and ride the waves and see where it takes you and meet each moment with the best that you’ve got at that time. 

Meagan: Yes. Oh, I love that. I love that. Ride the waves. That is the perfect ending. I have one more question but I want to just end on that. Ride the waves. Ride the waves. Trust your body. So if I’m having an out-of-hospital birth, what should I be asking? Are there specific questions I should ask my midwife? Do I have qualifications? Are there certain things where you would say, “You’re probably not a good candidate for a VBAC at home?” Are there any final tips that you would give as people are researching this option and talking to people?

Blyss: Yeah, I think it goes back to what we were saying in the beginning. How do you feel when you are in this person’s presence? That’s a big one. Telling your story to them, telling them how you feel and what you are desiring this time and then just really feeling into do you feel that this is somebody that you want to have by your side? Ask them about their experience with VBACs. Ask them what would be the situation in which they would require a transport or that they would want to transport? See if that aligns with how you are feeling about this decision and what you would want from a provider. Maybe ask their statistics how many VBACs they have done. What is their transfer rate? When did they transfer with those people? I think that’s all really important and how comfortable are they? Are you a mom who has had multiple Cesareans? How comfortable are they with those risks and do you feel aligned with what it is that they are sharing with you about their philosophies? 

I think that is a big part. Again, your provider and how they feel and how they approach things whether it’s in the hospital with an OB or a certified nurse midwife or at home with a CPM, their feelings about it and their trust in this process is going to have a huge impact on your experience because they are going to bring those fears or concerns into the birth room or into your pregnancy and you don’t need that. You need someone who believes in you 100% and when you’re with them, you feel better than when you got there. That’s what you’re looking for. If you don’t have those options available in your area, find somebody who can provide that for you virtually or find a doula who can be there with you as a continuity of care that you do have that connection and trust and faith with. I feel like that is probably the most important part of the process. 

Meagan: Absolutely. That’s what I was looking for. I had a lot of questions at my visits but ultimately, one of the biggest things I was looking for was how I felt in their presence, their confidence in me, my confidence in them, and yeah. I mean, I liked to know what would happen if I needed to transfer or what would they be looking at to make me transfer so I would know, “Okay, this is happening. She talked about transfer,” but overall, I needed to know that that person was in my corner because I had never been in anybody else’s corner if that makes sense. I was in my own corner with my first two babies and I didn’t want to feel that way again because it’s a very lonely corner. 

Blyss: Yeah, yeah. The only contraindication would be a classical incision. Other than that, I think that it’s just about exploring what the risks are. Let’s say it’s a short interval or something like that. I think giving true informed consent to that family and making sure they understand the increased potential risk, if this is an option that they want, I would rather be able to support them in this option than send them to the hospital if that’s not necessary or having those people maybe do an unassisted birth because no one’s willing to support them. That’s me. Not all providers feel that way but I believe if this is something that you’ve researched, you understand the risks, and this is what you’re desiring, you deserve to have somebody there by your side. That’s what we’re there for. 

Birth is meant to happen with nobody around just like a mammal. We’re designed to survive. Our babies are designed to survive. You don’t actually need anybody with you, but when you hire somebody to be there by your side, we are there to be able to help you decide when it is time to get support or be able to step in and offer that medical support if needed. So if someone never wants to deal with any kind of complication that may potentially arise in childbirth, you probably shouldn’t be a provider because that’s our job. We’re the ones who are supposed to step in calmly and help you make a decision that’s going to keep you and your baby healthy. 

Like you were saying earlier, us keeping you home when you don’t want to stay home, none of us want to have a bad outcome. We don’t go to work thinking that we want to force somebody to stay home and have a bad outcome. We all want the same thing, a healthy mom and a healthy baby. For us, there’s that additional layer of transformation, elation, joy, rights of passage, and having the family have an experience of understanding that this is how we were meant to deliver our babies. 

Meagan: I have feelings about the healthy mom, healthy baby. Just like you were saying, I add to it. Healthy mom, healthy baby, and a good experience. That’s going to look different for everyone. I hope that as you are listening to this episode, you know you have options. You have options. I know sometimes Blyss talked about financially or maybe even location-wise, you are feeling that those options are stripped or you are feeling restricted. I understand that and I know it sucks. But don’t ever hesitate to explore your options or maybe look for those virtual support meetings and things like that. Or maybe drive 40 minutes because deciding what is best for you is most important. 

Here at The VBAC Link and Blyss, I’m going to speak for you, there’s no judgment in the way you birth. There’s no judgment. We just want you to have a good experience and know your options. 

Blyss: Absolutely. Thank you for having me on. I love you and as I said, I love supporting families in general but I have a special place in my heart for VBAC moms and for the work that you are doing so thank you so much for inviting me to have this conversation. I am available for people to come out to Santa Barbara if they feel like they don’t have options which I know is not for everybody. I’m also happy to do consults with people over the phone if they just need somebody who can tell them that they can do this. 

Meagan: Yes, I know it sounds crazy that I’m going to go to another state and have a baby, but you guys, people do it. Before COVID, I had a Russian clientele. People from Russia would come to the states here to Utah. Think about how far that is. It’s not super crazy. A lot of the time, people are like, “It’s a lot of money. It’s a lot of effort. It’s a lot of this.” You guys, this is one day in your life that will impact you forever. It really will. I will never forget my births. Money will come and go but your experience will stick with you. 

Blyss: Forever. 

Meagan: So if you can make it work, if you have a VBAC ban, or you are restricted or something like that, check out Blyss. Check out midwives in the next state over. Look at these options. Expand your ideas. Expand your ideas and know that you have options. 

Blyss: Yeah. Take back your power. 

Meagan: Take back your power. Take back your power and know that it’s okay. It’s okay to do something that seems weird. People are going to be like, “What are you doing?” but it’s okay to do that. 

Blyss: And that’s how change happens. If we all do the same thing, no one is ever able to see that this is possible. You deserve that. You deserve to listen to your own heart and your own instincts and what your soul is telling you is right for you. That’s okay if it’s not right for everybody. 

Meagan: Yes. Absolutely. Just like we were talking about earlier, there are going to be different outcomes and that’s okay if that wasn’t your outcome or if that wasn’t your choice. We have people who after learning about VBAC and the statistics, the risk is too much for them and that is okay. 

That’s okay. 

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

Janelle is such an inspiration. You can feel her beautiful spirit as she shares her birth stories with us today. 

She talks about how it’s okay if your life circumstances don’t allow for the perfect birth setup. Janelle was able to adapt and make peace with where she needed to let go. She was able to achieve the unmedicated VBAC she desired in a hospital setting. She found ways to strongly advocate for herself which also worked with her kind personality.

Janelle has such a heart for women as she shares relatable advice about how to create a special experience throughout all of the unknowns of pregnancy and birth. 

Additional Links

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

The VBAC Link Facebook Community

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Meagan: Hello, women of strength. We have an amazing episode for you today but first I want to talk to you just a little bit about postpartum depression. Studies show that 1 in 7 new mamas will develop postpartum depression. It’s scary and a topic that doesn’t really get discussed about a lot. So before we jump into today’s episode, I wanted to share a little bit about our podcast sponsor and partner, Happiest Baby. 

As you guys know from listening to The VBAC Link, this podcast means so much to me. I love every single one of you. I know that’s hard to believe because I don’t personally know every single one of you, but it is true. I love this community so much and it means so much to me that Dr. Harvey Karp and his company Happiest Baby are such big supporters of VBAC and are supporting our mission. 

One of their biggest products that people may know or have heard of is called the Snoo. The Snoo is an amazing baby bed that can truly help many mams out there during their postpartum journey, especially if you were like me and have a husband or partner that has to go right back to work and is left with these amazing, cute, snuggly babies but also exhausted. Whether you had a C-section or a vaginal birth, for those few days and let’s be honest, probably months, you’re just exhausted. 

I was in pure survival mode. So many people refer to the Snoo as “the mama helper” whose there to help soothe your baby so you can just get a few more hours of sleep. They even have a rental program which I think is pretty awesome so you don’t actually have to buy the bassinet. 

As I started to learn more about Dr. Karp and his mission, I just loved learning that he is so passionate about reducing postpartum depression in parents. They even got FDA approval which I believe is the only bassinet or baby bed that has been FDA-approved. It’s also been known for reducing SIDS in babies as well. 

I asked our community for their reviews of Snoo and I was overwhelmed by the positive responses. I just wanted to say thank you to Dr. Karp for creating the Snoo and helping millions of mamas sleep for just a few more hours at night so we can continue bonding with our babies and having a better postpartum experience. Thank you, Happiest Baby. 

Welcome to The VBAC Link, everybody. This is your host, Meagan, and we have our friend Janelle with us today. She is going to be sharing with you her VBAC story. She is from Minnesota and has so many amazing tips. Some of the highlights of her birth stories are post-dates. This is one that we talk about all of the time on the podcast, but baby being born after or by a certain day so 41 weeks, is that right, Janelle? 

Janelle: Yep.

Meagan: Someone told you that you had to have an induction and then you declined and then your baby came spontaneously within that time. So really, really cool stuff and then planning for an unmedicated hospital birth with little to no interventions– that’s also something that is very possible so if you are looking at how to do that, this is definitely a story you’re going to want to listen to. And then financially or physically or even relationship-wise, you don’t have to have the ideal birth to have a great birth. So I’m really excited to hear Janelle’s story about all of these little details. 

I’m going to jump into a Review of the Week and tell you a little bit more about Janelle and then we will get into her story. Today’s reviewer is Bethany Sagaert. I am hoping I didn’t just butcher your last name, Bethany. I’m so sorry if I did. This was back in 2020 so just a couple of years ago. The subject is “Podcast Was Part of My VBA2C Journey.” It says, “I’m so thankful for this podcast. I listened to so many episodes in preparation for my VBA2C. Listening to other women share their stories gave me the courage to keep working and fighting for my upcoming birth. I just gave birth to my third boy and the birth was everything I could have asked for. I am so thankful for this podcast and blog and refer every expecting mom I know to it in hopes that it gives them the courage and confidence it gave me to give birth the way they want and deserve.”

Thank you so much, Bethany for this wonderful review. Just a reminder for all of you listeners, we do have a blog. We have a wonderful website where you can go. You can find a whole bunch of stuff on our blog. We have our resource page. We have doulas if you are looking for a VBAC doula. We have a list of VBAC doulas all over the world. We also have a VBAC course. We now have a mini-course which is really exciting. So if you are wanting to keep upping your game and fill yourself with education, hop over to thevbaclink.com and find all that we have to offer.

Meagan: Okay, Ms. Janelle, thank you so much for being here. Janelle is a full-time stay-at-home mama of two girls and after an unexpected Cesarean in 2020, Janelle began the process of planning and preparing for her VBAC. She and her husband enjoy getting outside with their girls, cooking up good food, and playing board games together after all the kids are in bed. Janelle, welcome. Welcome to The VBAC Link and thank you again for being here. 

Janelle: Yeah, I’m so glad to be sharing my story. 

Meagan: Absolutely. We know it’s going to inspire just like all of the stories on here, so we’d love to turn the time over to you. 

Janelle: Okay. Well, I’m Janelle. When I was planning for my VBAC, I would always be doing the dishes at night listening to The VBAC Link. It was always my goal to have the VBAC but then the second goal was to be able to share the story. So I’m really glad to be sharing. 

Meagan: And here you are. So awesome. 

Janelle: Yeah. Well, I’ve heard a lot of other moms say every VBAC starts with a Cesarean so I’ll start there. 

Meagan: Exactly where it starts. You can’t have a VBAC without a Cesarean, right? 

Janelle: Right. So with my first daughter’s birth, my water broke and I was really wanting an unmedicated, natural, vaginal delivery. The water broke and I got so excited. I thought, “It’s going to happen. Things are going.” This was a few days before 40 weeks so I thought I was going to have my first baby right on time. It was going to happen perfectly how I wanted. But then after the water broke, no contractions started. I hadn’t really educated myself and really prepared for the labor very well so I didn’t know to maybe stay at home for a little bit to try and get things going. 

I ended up going to the hospital which led to many interventions. I got induced and nothing was really happening. I was dilating a little bit but it wasn’t “fast enough” and there was meconium present. There were a few things that I felt were stacked against me and in the end, we decided that it would be safest for me and the baby to get the C-section. If I could go back, I would do a lot of things differently, but that’s just how it was. 

Meagan: Yeah, and it’s what you knew at the time. 

Janelle: Exactly.

Meagan: It’s what you knew then. That’s one of the things about birth is that we grow. We grow as we learn. Sometimes we have to learn “the hard way” in order to make changes for the future.

Janelle: Right. I see a blessing in it really that I was able to go through the C-section and then have learned so much in the process of preparing for a VBAC. I never thought I’d say that, that I’m thankful for how the story was but now I am. 

So anyways, I had the C-section and right away, I was pretty sad about it. I was bummed and I knew I wanted another baby. I was hoping to have another baby. I really wanted a VBAC. From the second I left the hospital. I thought, “The next time I come here, I’m not having another C-section.” 

I put my mind to it and about a year and a half later I think it would have been– our girls are about two years apart– we got pregnant with our newest baby. I started all of the research. The educational research, the physical research. I tried to prepare emotionally and spiritually. I was just trying to do what I could to prepare. 

Leading up to it, I had always heard, “You need a supportive provider. You need a supportive provider.” That’s the number one thing. But because of some family circumstances, we had some interesting financial goals. Our deductible had already been met because of some surgeries that happened that year, so it really was the best decision for me to be at the hospital. I know some people say, “It’ll only be $5000 (only $5000) to get a midwife at home,” but that was a lot to us. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Janelle: That is not pocket change. 

Meagan: We talk about how in the end, two, three, four, five years down the road are you going to be like, “Okay, that $5000? It probably was worth it.” But at the same time, you have to take into consideration where you are at that time. If it is going to cause stress and angst and hardship, it’s probably not worth it. Right? You have other alternatives. You can still make a great birth. 

Janelle: Right. I was thinking, “This is the main recommendation that everyone has to have a good provider.” I thought, “I don’t really have that opportunity.” But I did have the opportunity to have a doula. I said, “This is my situation. I’m getting a doula that I like but I will be at the hospital.” I said, “I’m going to learn what I need to learn for my situation. I’m going to stop complaining about not being able to do it just how I want.” 

That’s when I started the education of how to do this at the hospital because that’s where I was going to be. I had some pressures during the pregnancy to have different interventions that I wasn’t interested in. One of them, the one I should highlight, is the pressure to be induced at 40 weeks. 

My baby was measuring a little bit on the bigger side. She came out at a little over 9 pounds so that was the reason that they were interested in inducing. Also because of the previous of Cesarean, they were telling me it was a better chance of things going well for us if I was closer to 40 weeks. But because of my views and what I had educated myself on and what I believed, I did not want to accept that intervention. 

I told them I wanted to wait. 40 weeks came and went. I was really surprised that it came and went because I was trying to do all of the things but you know what they say. You cannot force the baby to come before they’re ready. We were walking. We were hiking every day. I felt the baby. There was so much pressure but nothing was happening. I would wake up every morning and think, “I’m going to end up with another C-section. The baby’s not coming. I’m not going to go spontaneously,” but I had some really good support around me. My husband knew how much the VBAC meant to me. 

Our doula, her name is Kayla. Shoutout to Kayla, I know she’ll listen. She was so supportive and she just told me, “Hang in there. Take it day by day. You can always make a decision the next day or the day of.” What are they going to say if I come in and ask to be induced? They probably are going to be happy to have me. 

So I just kept waiting and then 41 weeks came. I was getting Braxton Hicks for the whole pregnancy but so many. By this point, having feelings down there wasn’t really anything new. 

Meagan: Yeah, not foreign. 

Janelle: Right. I was just like, “Oh, they’re probably Braxton Hicks again.” I was playing that game where I wanted to be in joyful denial because I wanted to progress naturally. I was in this mindset of, “If anything is happening, I don’t want to think about it anyway.” We got up and we made breakfast. I was getting contractions at this point but I had never had natural contractions. I had only had contractions that were induced so I didn’t really know what was going on. 

I made the breakfast then I had this urge to clean the front closet which should have been the sign.

Meagan: That can definitely be a sign, a surge of energy. 

Janelle: Yeah, so the front closet was cleaned. We listed a lot of stuff on the marketplace. Things were sold. After we put my toddler down for a nap, I had a chance to think about what was going on. I thought, “These are still going.” I hadn’t really paid attention to it. I heard this trick of if you get in the shower and they continue and get stronger, then it’s probably labor. But if they go away, then it’s probably not. 

I had done this before. I had gotten in the shower and then I’d get out and they were gone. So I just thought, “I guess I’ll do the test again.” So I get into the shower and I feel one. I thought, “Ooh. That was interesting.” Then I get out and they would continue. I thought, “Maybe this is something,” but I wasn’t fully convinced. I got to my room and I downloaded the first contraction timer app that I could find. I timed a few. I thought, “Well that’s weird, two minutes apart. This can’t be it. They say that they’re supposed to be five minutes apart at first. What’s going on? They’re probably two-minute-apart Braxton Hicks contractions of course.”

So I screenshotted it and I sent it to my doula. I asked her, “What do we think is going on?” She played it cool and said, “Are you having any other symptoms?” I said, “I just feel like I have to poop but nothing more than that.” She said, “Okay. I’m going to come over to your house.” The plan was to labor at home for as long as possible and then head over to the hospital very late in the game. 

I asked my husband to bring our toddler to a friend’s house because I was starting to have to breathe through some things. I was in that mindset of where I wanted to focus. I was like, “She’s got to leave. I have to focus.” Our doula got there. My husband got back from dropping our toddler off. I just wanted to be in our bedroom away from everyone. I was laboring standing up. I was using that breathing technique of four seconds in, six seconds out. 

And okay. I had just researched and researched VBAC that I had forgotten– I researched positions and how to deal with medical staff but I had forgotten that I should have some breathing techniques. So oddly enough, a few days before labor started, I was watching this YouTube vlog of someone in labor. That is what her technique was and thankfully it stuck with me and worked for me because it was all I had. That is just what I did. I guess it calmed me down and it worked. 

Meagan: Mhmm, it’s really powerful. Our breath is so powerful. 

Janelle: Yes. So four seconds in, six seconds out. That’s what I did the whole time. My doula said that anytime I was ready we could probably go to the hospital because she was watching. She knew that I was progressing and that it was getting close to active labor. That’s what it’s called, right? Active labor is when it picks up?

Meagan: Active phase of labor, yep. 

Janelle: Oh, transition is what I was meaning. She knew that I was getting close to transition. 

Meagan: Oh, yep when you’re entering into transition, which is in the active phase of labor. 

Janelle: I was getting shaky and ready but I said, “No, no. We don’t want to head in before it’s time. I want to have this VBAC.” So she pulled my husband aside. I heard that she told him, “If we don’t plan on having the baby at home, we’d better head in. We’ve got to get her in the car.” They told me, “No, we think it’s a good time.”

I trusted them but was still a little in denial. Is this it? Should we go in? We drove to the hospital. It wasn’t that bad. We live pretty close. Thankfully, my wonderful doula and wonderful husband got us to skip triage which is something we had talked about before. It was a goal that we wanted to be able to skip past triage. It was a little bit rocky because I don’t think the hospital staff fully wanted that to happen but my doula pressed. She was like, “Her contractions are two minutes apart. Please just let us go. She wants to have a natural labor. She’s in labor, I promise.” 

So we got back to the room and that was such a blessing to go right back to the room because I think it kept me calmer. Once we got there, I started having more shakes and adrenaline. I started feeling scared. I realized that I was the only one that was going to do this and I realized, “Okay, this is the real deal.” I finally realized, “This is happening today and this baby comes out of me. No one else is able to really help me here.” That was a little bit scary. 

So during this time, it was pushed on us to get a check in order to 

Meagan: A cervical exam?

Janelle: Yep, in order to get admitted to the hospital. I pushed against that. I wasn’t interested. I wasn’t interested. But then I got to the point where I thought, “If I got a check, I think that might be something that is encouraging to me if I get that.” I told them that I was okay with it and I was a 9.5. I was like, “I really think it’s happening!” I was so thankful that things were progressing. 

Meagan: That’s funny that you were contracting to the point where your cervix is at 9.5 but they’re questioning admitting you.

Janelle: No, that’s what we were telling them. “No, this is real.” 

Meagan: “This is it. I’m going to have a baby.”

Janelle: Right. But I’m glad that I didn’t do the check too soon. We were there for a little bit before I said that that was okay. I think that kept me in that labor land. I turned inward and was focusing. Something that I used getting to the hospital was that I kept going with the breathing. I let my husband and doula really do all of the talking and I just shut my eyes. If people asked me questions, I was feeling really free to put my hand up and just continue what I was doing. 

My doula told me, “You’re a very sweet person but it’s not the time that you have to be super polite. You don’t want to be rude. But this is the time. You are the woman in labor. It’s okay if you tell them, ‘One second please’ or just put your hand up because you’re busy. You’re doing something right now.” So I practiced that and being okay with making people wait which was odd for me. I’m not used to being that way. But just to realize that today is my day. Today it’s about me and that’s okay.

Meagan: Exactly. I feel like so many of us moms especially in labor are so like, “I’m sorry. I’m sorry.” We don’t want to put anyone out but really, it’s okay. They can wait. They don’t have to have anything right then. 

Janelle: Here’s a funny part. I guess some people came in while I was nearing pushing. I was feeling pressure and saying, “I think I need to push.” People are coming in and introducing themselves. My doula says that I told them, “It’s very nice to meet you all but not right now,” while I was doing the thing. I thought that was kind of funny that those manners came out during such a time. 

Meagan: Yep. 

Janelle: But anyways, so 9.5 centimeters. I was super excited. My water broke soon after that. I was confirmed complete about 40 minutes after my water broke. About 20 minutes after starting to push, our baby was born. 

Meagan: 20 minutes?!

Janelle: Yeah, loudly crying. She was a little over 9 pounds and I was just so stunned that it had happened. I was so glad that it had happened. 

Meagan: Yes! Oh my gosh. That’s fast pushing. 

Janelle: It was. I was up in the position where you lean the bed up and you lean over the back so maybe a modified all-fours type thing. 

Meagan: Yeah, yeah. Oh, I love it. I love it. 

Janelle: Yeah, me too. 

Meagan: That is awesome and you did. You labored as long as you could there at home and then you got there. It’s just so awesome to hear the difference where it’s like, “Yeah, I don’t want that. I don’t want that. Okay. Now, I’m okay with that.” That’s something I’d like to make note of for the listeners is that it’s okay to not want something and say no, and then it’s okay to change your mind if that’s what you want. Right? 

Same thing with epidurals and getting an epidural. You can change your mind in labor. It’s okay. You’re totally warranted in doing that and it can help you when you are the one making the decision. Like you were saying, “I was really glad I didn’t check before then because I was in this great labor space and then I was ready and that was okay with me.” 

Janelle: Exactly. It really, really pushed me along to know that I was 9.5. I think it gave me a boost to say, “Okay, this is happening.” It gave me some confidence. 

Meagan: Yes, absolutely. You know, every time we have a storyteller, we have them fill out a sheet and the question is what is a secret lesson or something no one really talks about that you wish you would have known ahead of time when preparing for birth? Do you want me to read this or would you like to tell everybody?

Janelle: I’ll tell everyone. 

Meagan: Okay, yeah. 

Janelle: So like I said, when I was preparing for my VBAC, I think I forgot to prepare for some obvious things because I was so focused on VBAC-specific things. So I forgot that music can be really motivating and special during transition. I think if I could go back, I would have thought of certain songs to request during that time. My doula was really kind and she had some songs in mind that she put on for me and they ended up being perfect. They are super special to me now but I think something to remember to plan, just picking a few songs that will motivate you or be special to you during that time because I remember it so clearly, those moments right before meeting your baby. 

Meagan: Yes. It’s something that can help you stay in that space because sometimes transition can be scary or intense. It’s always different for everyone but if you have those familiar things, you’re doing something and you’re doing work but in a familiar space. I personally connect to music so much. I have my whole life. I used to be a dancer. Music connects to me and the same thing for me during birth and even preparing for birth. I would listen to those songs especially when I would struggle. If there was anything scary that had come into my mind or someone had said anything, I would go on and listen to those songs. To have that during that transition period would be so awesome. 

Like you said, there’s probably a lot about your labor that you remember vividly and there are some things you don’t remember as vividly but to have those songs and you remember them. You probably remember what you were doing during that time. It’s just so powerful. 

Janelle: Yeah. 

Meagan: I love it. Thank you so much for sharing your story and your tips. 

Janelle: You’re welcome. 

Meagan: Are there any other tips that you would like to give our listeners before we go?

Janelle: I think the last thing that I would say is I shared about how the situation that my family was in maybe wasn’t ideal but some things are just out of your control as far as where you will be laboring. I think I would just remember to focus on the things that I can control. On those days when you feel like you’re going crazy anticipating and preparing for your VBAC, I know I felt like I just want to know. I want to know if I’m going to have a VBAC. I want the day to come and I want to know, is it going to be a Cesarean or is it going to be a VBAC? 

On those days where it just seems like you’re kind of, maybe the word is obsessing over it, I was there. I would just take a day off from thinking about it and when it came down to it, I was really able to relax when I realized it was not fully in my control. I can control some things and I’m going to do the best that I can. I really got to the point where I thought, “Even if I have another Cesarean, I’ve done all of this research and preparation that I feel like I would be able to choose that in a lot of ways and be confident that it happened.” In my first experience, that’s what really bothered me. I didn’t feel like I got to choose it. I wish I would have done things differently but I didn’t have all of that information. 

Yeah, some things are just out of your control. 

Meagan: So powerful. Like you said, we can only control what we can control. Sometimes it’s hard to not be able to control some things but if we can do our best to stay in there, educate ourselves, and be in that space like you said, even if it ultimately does go to a repeat Cesarean, we’re probably going to be looking at that very differently in the end. 

Janelle: Exactly. 

Meagan: I know for sure, I didn’t even have all of the stuff I wish I had with my second that ended in a repeat Cesarean. It wasn’t the birth I wanted, but I was a participant in at least making the final say and that stood out to me. I think that helped my recovery and it was healing for me to do that. 

And then on top of that, I had things. I wanted to watch my Cesarean in particular. I wanted to feel more like a part of my Cesarean and that was huge. I was able to say those things. “I desire this.” It wasn’t within my control and I didn’t want that Cesarean. I definitely still felt pressure to have it, but at the same time, once I made the choice, I still was able to try and control some of the things that had happened. It really did. It reflects very differently to me today than I think it would have if I didn’t so I love that message. Thank you. 

Janelle: You’re welcome. 

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

Riley shares valuable lessons learned as a first-time mama not knowing what to advocate for or how to advocate for herself during labor. Something as small as bringing your own gown to the hospital can make all the difference in finding your power. 

Riley mentions some of the shocking things her first provider did which drove her to immediately switch as soon as she became pregnant again. Meagan and Riley discuss how key a VBAC-supportive provider is especially during short birthing intervals. Opinions on the ideal length between pregnancies vary dramatically among providers!

Additional Links

The VBAC Link Blog: Length Between Pregnancies

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

The VBAC Link Facebook Community

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Meagan: Hello, hello. It is Wednesday and we have another VBAC story for you today. Our VBAC storyteller is Riley so welcome, Riley, to the show. 

Riley: Thank you. 

Meagan: Yes. She is from Alabama so if there are any Alabama listeners out there, listen up because she definitely has a great story. I feel like there is something special about her, or I should say unique, about her story and that is the time between birth and pregnancy. That is something that’s really big in the VBAC world. We get a lot of questions about it. Unfortunately, we have a lot of providers naysaying VBAC when there is a close duration. I’m sure, Riley, you are going to tell us all about what types of stuff people said to you. 

We are going to talk about that at the end as well because we do have a lot of people who have a close duration between birth and pregnancy. Yeah, so we are going to be talking about that. 

Meagan: But of course, we have a Review of the Week so I want to make sure to read that review. This review is on Apple Podcasts and it’s from RokFray. It says, “Getting VBAC Ready. This podcast has been inspiring and motivational to me as I prepare for a VBAC with my fourth baby.” 

Oh, that’s awesome. 

“Listening to each of these stories and realizing that through listening, I am learning how to advocate for myself and my family. It’s been a true blessing. Thank you.”

Well thank you, RokFray, and I am with you. I feel like one of the best things about this podcast is truly learning how to advocate for yourself. That comes with getting educated. We have to educate ourselves in order to advocate for ourselves because if we don’t know what we’re advocating for and we don’t know the stats, facts, risks, and all of that stuff, it’s hard to advocate. You’re like, “I don’t know any better. I don’t know any better.” 

So if you guys are also wanting to learn more about VBAC and all of the stats and facts, we also have a VBAC course. If you guys didn’t know, we have a parent and a birth worker course. You can find them at thevbaclink.com/courses. 

Meagan: Okay, Riley. Thank you so much for being here. 

Riley: Yes, I’m so excited. 

Meagan: I’m excited too. I would love to turn the time over to you. I know both of your stories are vastly different. Everybody’s stories are usually different but I would love to know and have you share your stories. 

Riley: So my name is Riley. Like you said, I do live in Alabama. My husband and I will have been married for three years this coming May. We are practicing Catholics and fully open to life hence, the two kids are close together. 

Meagan: I love it. 

Riley: We have been blessed with two kids these past two years of marriage. So one kid one year and another kid the next. I am a stay-at-home mom. My son is 18 months old and my daughter is 4 months old right now. It’s a very busy time of my life. 

Meagan: Very busy, yes. 

Riley: 5 months after we were married, I found out I was pregnant. I was finishing up college and hadn’t quite graduated yet. I had no knowledge of pregnancy, birth, or hospital interventions. That wasn’t a term in my vocabulary at all. I just didn’t really know much about it. I was very thankful to have a sweet cousin during my first pregnancy who basically walked me through it. She helped me know kind of what to expect but I still didn’t know how much of an advocate I was going to have to be for myself. 

I learned so much going through that first pregnancy. Some knowledge I gained through that experience and then some knowledge was just research topics that would pop up and I would look at.

The main thing that I learned from my first pregnancy was that I was just way too compliant. For example, I learned that you can say no to cervical checks. That was a very small thing it seems like to some people, but that is something that some first-time mamas just really don’t know anything about. 

I’ve learned that, and that you can choose whether or not you get all of the recommended vaccines during pregnancy. You can also choose small things like whether or not you want to labor in the hospital gown or if you want to wear your own clothes. You can say that you’re going to move during labor instead of laying in bed the entire time which happened to me. We’ll get to it. 

All of this might sound like common knowledge but it isn’t for everyone, especially for those first-time mamas like I said who don’t have a lot of outside resources other than the hospital staff which is not always the best resource. 

Meagan: I agree. That is something that I would love to carry on a comment from that. This podcast is very VBAC-specific. People are wanting to have a vaginal birth after a Cesarean and are learning the good things, but I feel like this podcast really would benefit everybody, especially first-time moms learning about, like you said, interventions. That wasn’t even in your vocabulary. You were like, “What?” 

Riley: Yeah.

Meagan: So walking through this podcast and learning what interventions can maybe lead to a Cesarean or how certain situations could lead to a Cesarean or what you can and can’t do. Like you said, you are your own advocate and you can say no to anything. Riley, you’re not the only one that was very go-with-the-flow. Guess what? I was too. So many of these listeners were very compliant. “You say that. You know better than I do. You went to medical school and midwifery school.” Again like you said, it’s not always the best resource to have just that information. There might be a lot of information outside of exactly what they’re giving you. So I love that you said that. 

Riley: Yes. My friends who are first-time mamas, I’m just trying to fill them with all of the knowledge because it’s almost like with your first birth, you want to prevent that Cesarean. That’s almost how the interventions have become and how bad it’s gotten. I’m just always in my mind, “Please let me help you be able to have your first baby vaginally and not have a Cesarean.” 

Meagan: Yeah, yeah. Let’s get these rates down and it starts with not having a Cesarean the first time assuming you don’t want one. We know some people do and they have reasons why and that’s totally fine. But yeah, getting this rate down would be great. 

Riley: So to continue, my first pregnancy was very normal, no complications. My son’s due date was estimated for the end of June which is another big thing that doctors put. They put a lot of pressure on that due date. So when you’re that first-time mama, you’re waiting for that day. When that day comes, you feel like something’s wrong. It’s a lot of pressure. My husband and I had in our minds that baby boy would be in our arms mid to late June. It was a lot of pressure on that due date. 

My mom had me on my due date so these people I was surrounded with, it was like, “Okay, we’re waiting on the due date.” 

Meagan: Yes. We have a VBAC Link Podcast follower that said, “As much as I was okay with going over my due date, it was the daily pressure that got to me.” Having that pressure at the end of your pregnancy doesn’t help us go into labor.

Riley: Yes. So much pressure. No, it doesn’t. 

So when the due date came and nothing happened, we were a bit surprised because most providers like I said, put lots of pressure on having the babies on that date or very, very close to that date. 

Once the due date had passed, I began to get slight pressure for an induction, no reason other than I had passed my due date. We knew we wanted to wait for my body to go into labor naturally if possible. That was our goal. 

So at 41 weeks, my water broke. I was having no contractions. My water broke, no pain or anything with that. Regretfully, my husband and I packed it up and headed to the hospital. That was just our gut feeling. We called the nurses and they told us to head there. If I were to do it again, that pregnancy and that time frame, I would definitely wait at home longer and just labor at home and wait on those contractions to come and not go. Even if your water breaks, you’re going to be fine. 

Meagan: You’re going to be fine. And if your water breaks, take a quick note. Let’s run through it. “How am I feeling? Do I feel like I have a fever? Do I feel like something is wrong? Is there a lot of meconium on the ground?” You can run through this checklist and say, “Okay. Everything’s okay. I feel great. Baby is moving. Everything is great.” Do a mental checklist. 

Riley: Yeah, so we packed it up and headed to the hospital. We only had a 20-minute drive so we got there pretty quickly. Once we entered, it was just a cascade of interventions. As soon as I walked in, my mindset was going to be, “Active during labor. Walk around the hospital room and be able to get into positions that I want.” As soon as I walked in the door, they asked me to take my clothes off, get into a hospital gown, and get into the hospital bed. 

I asked if I could– because this might be TMI but I had put a diaper on because it was most comfortable for me because my water had broke and after your water breaks if you don’t know, you need a little something down there to walk around. 

Meagan: You just keep leaking. Yes, you do. 

Riley: That was my plan. So they wanted me to strip down and just get in bed. I asked if I could do what I wanted and they basically gave me a stern no because of the infection. 

Meagan: Let’s just stop right there. How does infection come into removing your clothes or not removing your clothes or having a diaper or not?

Riley: Or get an infection walking around.

Meagan: I’m sorry, but vaginas are not vacuums. They don’t just suck up infections. Things have to be inserted into them. 

Riley: Yes, yes.

Meagan: So you wearing a diaper or a pad is not– yeah. 

Riley: Not very much logic when into that. 

Meagan: I digress. 

Riley: That was our first, I would call it, intervention. It’s very small, putting a hospital gown on, but it was the first one of many. 

Meagan: But for you, it was an intervention in the way of where you were like, “Wait, that’s not what I want to do,” and then you didn’t feel at the time because we didn’t know. You weren’t given an option. It’s just like, no. 

Riley: That’s the number one thing that starts making my comfort level go down. 

Meagan: Yeah, exactly. 

Riley: In labor, you need to be as comfortable as possible. 

Meagan: You’re becoming very vulnerable at that moment. 

Riley: I later realized that the risk of infection, like we said, is very low, and after your water breaks, walking around is not going to cause an infection. It was a very slippery slope after that. I was put on a time clock due to my water breaking, so the doctor wanted the baby out in 24 hours. I really had no knowledge about that. I was just like, “Okay,” staring at this clock on the wall. Man, these 24 hours happen fast. 

Meagan: It really does. 

Riley: The hours go by and it’s not happening like the doctor wants it to. I’m getting nervous. I didn’t really want to use Pitocin, but that was something that he wanted to do so we compromised. I was like, “As long as you do it at a very, very, very low dose and do it very slowly.” So he started the PItocin. At this point, I’m still bedridden. They would not even let me get up to go to the bathroom. They gave me a bedpan. 

Meagan: So crazy. 

Riley: The bathroom was literally right there. I asked them if I could go to the bathroom and they were like, “Oh no. We’ll bring you a bedpan.” I’m like, “That’s not what I want.” 

Meagan: I want to get up and move. 

Riley: So the contractions were not fun stuck in the bed on Pitocin. Pitocin contractions are not fun period, but if you get to walk around with them, I feel like you can cope with them. But being stuck on your back in the bed, you can’t really cope anyway in that position. 

So then I ended up asking for an epidural because I was not coping well in bed with those Pitocin contractions. 

Meagan: You’re stuck in one spot. 

Riley: Mhmm. Fast forward to time to push and the doctor told the nurses to pull the epidural. No questions asked. It was almost like I wasn’t in the room and he was just talking and giving the nurses orders.

Meagan: Wow. 

Riley: He came in a few times and asked if I was feeling pressure. I always told him, “No, not really. No.” I knew when my contractions were coming, but no. I’m not feeling any pressure. He didn’t like that answer and he told the nurses to pull the epidural. It was a weird feeling in the room. He walked out and the nurses turned the epidural monitor around. They told me, “We’ll leave it in as long as we can.” They were against the doctor. They said, “We’re just going to watch for him down the hallway and when he comes back, we’ll pull it. We’ll let you have it for as long as possible.” They said, “He does this to everybody.” 

Meagan: What?!

Riley: I was like, “Okay, thank you.” Anyway, by the time he got back, they pulled it without my consent. I was supposed to last for a couple of hours. It probably lasted 30 minutes and I could feel everything. That’s a huge change going from that medication to nothing. 

Meagan: Yes, yes. 

Riley: I pushed for over an hour until I heard the words no mother wants to hear and that was, “Stop pushing.” He was staring at the monitor. It felt like an eternity but he eventually told me what was going on. He said that the baby’s heart rate was spiking every time I would push so even though my body was wanting to push, he was telling me, “No, no. Don’t push.” 

He eventually announced that we were going to do an emergency Cesarean. My mom and husband were there. My husband started suiting up to go to the OR for the Cesarean. The anesthesiologist had to come back to push the epidural back because I didn’t have it anymore so she was trying to do that and she got tears in her eyes. She was like, “I don’t think it’s working.” I was like, “Yeah, I can feel the washcloths and everything you’re putting on my legs. I can feel everything.” She was like, “You’re going to have to be intubated. Your husband or mom, nobody can go back there with you. You have to go back there by yourself.” 

I was like, “Okay. Let’s just get this show on the road if this is what we’re doing. I’m in so much pain. I’m tired of talking about it.” They rolled me back there by myself. I waited for a minute and then they put me under. I basically woke up in a closet-like room without baby, without my husband, and just by myself. I was crying and I was like, “Where’s my baby?” The doctor was standing over me and he tells me how big my baby is or something. I had a decently big baby, like 9, 12. 

It was just very traumatic, all of the interventions, waking up without my baby, and having this emergency surgery, not getting to be awake when my baby was born, missing all of the first times. They went ahead and did all of the stuff without me. I didn’t meet him until he was already two hours old because that was how long it took me to wake up and everything. My husband was there with the baby. 

Meagan: Can I ask how long from the time when he was like, “Your baby’s heart rate is dropping, we’re going to have to do a Cesarean,” to you going and having a Cesarean?

Riley: Like how long from when he announced I was having it?

Meagan: You mentioned it was an emergency but I was just curious because it seemed like a lot of stuff had happened leading up. 

Riley: Yeah, it was pretty quick. It wasn’t like everybody was rushing around and getting me back really fast. But it was like, “Okay, emergency Cesarean,” then they tried the epidural. That’s what took a little bit of time and then maybe I would say maybe an hour. Maybe I’m wrong. 

Meagan: Yeah, no. I’m always so curious when providers say “an emergency Cesarean” and then this emergency takes so much time. An emergency is quick. You’re saying all of these things and I’m like, “Oh.” 

Riley: I guess if it really would have been an emergency, they wouldn’t have tried the epidural since I didn’t have it. 

Meagan: No, yeah. 

Riley: They would have just taken me straight back there and put me under. 

Meagan: But we hear emergency in our reports and they’re telling us it’s an emergency and we get scared. “Emergency” is a very big word. I’m sorry, keep going. I’m loving this. 

Riley: That is basically the end of my first story. So that was just very traumatic, but then we were still open to life so we were not going to close that off. I was also kicked out of my six-week postpartum appointment. I never really got to that postpartum when they even say, “Wait a certain amount of time,” so I never encountered that because it was just an odd situation. I just didn’t go to it so we just did our thing. We had our baby and then we were just like, “We’re just going to go with it and see what happens.” 

We actually got pregnant five months after having my son. Something about the five-month timeframe for us, but I knew initially that I wanted to have a vaginal birth. I had so many things running through my head when I was staring at that pregnancy test. The first thing I knew that I wanted to do was to change providers. I knew that if I was going to plan for a VBAC, then I needed not just someone who was tolerant but someone who was going to be completely on board with my VBAC. I didn’t want any rolling eyes. I wanted to be on the same page. 

I asked friends and family and finally found one. The instant we met, I knew that she was a perfect fit for us. I had a pretty normal pregnancy once again except for some tachycardia that lingered and would not go away. In addition to changing providers, I also knew that I wanted to write a very detailed birth plan which I did not do with my first pregnancy of all of my wishes and everything that I wanted. I talked with my provider at the end of my pregnancy and she had no reservations about anything. 

At around 30-ish weeks, she mentioned me getting a doula. I didn’t really know everything a doula entailed, so I did some research and talked it over with my husband. At 37 weeks, we decided to hire a doula. 

Meagan: I love it. I love it. It’s never too late until the baby is born to hire a birth doula. It’s never too late until you’ve had a baby. 

Riley: It was definitely towards the end but we got her in. We were eagerly awaiting those contractions. I had never felt that slow progression of early labor because, with my first like I said, just my water broke with no contractions. 

Finally, at 40+3– she came a little bit earlier– I had the smallest contractions at 4:00 AM. They kept coming at random times. The new provider we chose is a much longer drive. She is about 45 minutes away. We did keep that in mind. Around lunch, the contractions were a little stronger and much more regular. After nine hours of laboring at home, we headed to the hospital. I had very regular contractions on the 45-minute drive there. We arrived and finally got admitted to a room after going through triage. 

I was dilated to about a 5 and I was at -1 station, 90% effaced. 

Meagan: Great, yeah. Really great progress. 

Riley: I labored in all of the positions that felt most comfortable to me, never being forced to be in the bed. I was even able to get in the shower at one point. After 15 hours of laboring including that early stage at home, I was just exhausted and began to have back labor. I was just contemplating an epidural because I was so tired of laboring. After getting the epidural, I was able to rest a bit until it was time to push. 

I do think the epidural probably prolonged my labor a bit. I’m just going to throw that out there. It’s kind of a win-lose situation. You get some rest and feel a little bit better come time for pushing, but then you look back on it and think, “Did the epidural really prolong this an extra 2-3 hours?” 

I was given a light epidural which was such a blessing. If you don’t know what that is, you can ask for a light epidural and I would suggest that to anybody wanting to get one because it gives you the ability to feel all of the contractions and to feel the pressure as well. That is such a big deal. I was actually able, with my epidural, to get in different positions for the baby and to also push on my own and not have to be coached with the countdown and all of that. I was able to just feel my body and know what was happening. 

My provider and doula teamed together and gave me all sorts of positions to try and help labor the baby down. Three hours of pushing and a busted blood vessel in my eye later, the baby was finally born. She was healthy and I had no complications afterward. I was like, “It actually happened. I did it.” 

Meagan: You did. 

Riley: I did. I achieved the VBAC that I desired for these whole nine months. This story wouldn’t be complete if I didn’t mention all of the rosaries and prayers said in preparation for this birth. We knew our baby’s name pretty early on. We chose to name her after two saints– Saint Sylvia and Saint Anne. Both of these saints really helped us through the entire pregnancy. The Blessed Virgin Mary and God especially were there every step of the way hearing all of our prayers and knowing that they would be answered in God’s own time. 

Even when I was getting anxious around the estimated due date, He knew that three days later, I would have my successful, redemptive, holy VBAC. Thanks be to God. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. I love it. I love it. You talked about blood vessels bursting in your eye. Sometimes that happens. 

Riley: It does happen. 

Meagan: It does happen. We try to avoid it but sometimes it happens. 

Riley: Yes. 

Meagan: Oh, well congratulations. 

Riley: Thank you. 

Meagan: I love it. I would love to talk about the 5-month mark and everything. You got pregnant kind of soon. What would people say to you? What would providers say to you about really more in-depth of what they would say to you about this? Did they place doubt? Did they encourage? It seems like overall, they were pretty dang supportive. 

Riley: Yeah, so we changed providers so the only provider I encountered was our new provider with the spacing. The people we encountered, there was a lot of negativity. Family members and people were very nervous about something happening and me not thinking about my body and taking care of myself. Things like that. Our provider was totally on board. 

Meagan: Okay. That’s awesome. 

Riley: I was very nervous. That first appointment, I really was planning on going in and her making the decision and her saying, “You’re either going to have to have a Cesarean or you can try for a VBAC.” I figured she would tell me one or the other. I walked in and she totally just puts the ball in your court. She says, “It’s up to you. I’m going to give you the stats. I’m going to give you both sides.” It’s just literal stats. It’s something you can look up online. She was super supportive. I was nervous to say, “My son was born last July. I just had a baby.” 

But she was like, “That’s not a big deal.” She said, “The time difference in your babies is not the issue.” She said, “It’s if you have complications in this pregnancy that might pose an issue to have a VBAC.” She was like, “The time difference, yeah maybe waiting a little bit longer could help you,” but she said, “14 months is not a huge deal at all.” Whereas if I would have gone to another provider, I don’t think that would have been what I would have heard. 

Meagan: Yes. That is what we are finding. I always ask people what their providers say just because it’s so different and it’s dramatically different. 

Riley: Yes. 

Meagan: That’s what’s kind of interesting to me about everything. There are studies. There’s research and all of these things, but some providers will say, “Oh, you can’t get pregnant whenever. It needs to be a 24-month gap.” For some, it’s 18 months. For some, it’s 12 months. For some, it’s 15 months. It varies so, so dramatically. 

There are studies that show that really, really close intervals like 6 months or something increases the chances of uterine rupture because we don’t have a Cesarean scar that is completely healed. It takes your body time to heal, but some tips to give to you right after pregnancy is eating well with high protein and really good nutrients. Feed your body all that it needs so it can do its job and recover quicker. 

But it’s just so interesting to always hear. We have a mom that reached out probably a couple of weeks ago and she said, “I’m 20 months out and my provider said no.” They pretty much told her, “No, you’re going to have a uterine rupture.” She’s like, “Is this true?” It’s like, “No, it’s not.” We have a blog about getting pregnant after a Cesarean and how long should you wait? So be sure to check that out. It’ll be in today’s show notes or just at thevbaclink.com/blog but it isn’t a guarantee. It isn’t something. Here your provider was not really worried about it. Do you feel comfortable sharing with the audience your provider’s name? 

Riley: Sure. She is actually not an OB. 

Meagan: Is she family? 

Riley: She’s family, yeah. She delivers babies all of the time. She actually has lots of experience with VBAC mamas so a lot of people go to her. Marcia Daniel at UAB in Huntsville. 

Meagan: Awesome, awesome. So again, if you are listening now and you want to explore your options, there’s someone to check out. We always love suggesting providers. We have a list in our private VBAC Link Community on Facebook. We have a list under the Files section of providers all over the world of what people have said. We will make sure to get her added to that list. If you’re listening and you’re looking for a supportive provider that maybe is more accepting of birth and you want to check her out, check her out. 

Okay, well thank you so much. 

Riley: Yeah, you’re welcome. Thank you for having me on. 

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

We are so excited to have Kaitlin McGreyes from Be Her Village here with us today! Kaitlin began Be Her Village as an avenue for women to register for birth services instead of typical baby shower gifts to help support their transition to motherhood. 

Kaitlin shares how through her Cesarean and VBAC stories, she learned how to become an empowered and active participant during birth. 

Kaitlin and Meagan also answer a burning question. What is the real formula for how to have a successful birth outcome? Research, research, research, then trust yourself to make choices that are best for YOU!

Additional Links

Kaitlin’s Website

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

The VBAC Link Facebook Community

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Meagan: Hello, hello you guys. It is Wednesday or maybe Friday or Thursday or Tuesday, whatever day it is that you are listening, today is Wednesday when we are recording The VBAC Link Podcast. I’ve been a little giddy for this episode because we have our friend Kaitlin. She and I connected. She is with Be Her Village and we actually connected two weeks ago. Maybe a week ago, a little bit ago. 

We got off the phone and we both felt the same feeling, this energy. Can we just be best friends? That’s what you were saying. We’re best friends. It’s just so fun. We definitely have very similar passions and drives for the birth community and VBAC and all the things. 

She has a story of her own today that truly led her to where she is right now which I think is one of the biggest things that relates the two of us because my journeys led me to where I am right now at my desk recording this podcast and serving this VBAC community. So I’m going to introduce her a little bit more in just a moment, but we do have a Review of the Week. 

This was actually sent via email as well. We got two emails back to back about reviews. Just a reminder, if you have not had a moment to leave a review, please do so. We love them. They mean the world. Our team loves reading them. You can leave them on podcast apps like Apple or Google. You can send us a social media message on Facebook or Instagram or you can be like Daria did and she sent it to us via email. That is so wonderful as well. 

She says, “I just wanted to leave a review of my favorite podcast. It’s almost an obsession at this point. I had a C-section with my twins almost two years ago and am currently pregnant with baby number three. I’m writing in March as I listen to your podcast on my walks and get ready for VBAC as much as I possibly can. I can’t describe how much valuable information and most importantly inspiration it gives me. Maybe it’s just pregnancy hormones but I swear I cry every time I listen to moms describing the emotional moments of their birth stories. Nothing feels more precious to me at that moment. I am dead set on having a VBAC in August and all of the episodes of the podcast give me extra encouragement and strength to advocate for myself. I religiously listen to every new episode and maybe I’ll get to hear this review soon.”

Yes, you will. It is coming up soon, just before your VBAC actually, Daria. 

It says, “Look out for my next email in August with hopefully a successful VBAC story. Thank you so much again for everything you do for women all over the world.” 

Oh my gosh. Then she says, “P.S. English is not my first language. I’m from Ukraine but I hope my English is fluent enough to reflect my feelings.” 

Oh my gosh. Kaitlin, is that not just an amazing review?

Kaitlin: I really just feel it. I’m sitting here getting ready to tell my story and I’m getting teared up about the fact that the people listening are in my position right before I had my VBAC. It’s such a place of unknown. It’s such a place where you need support. It’s such a place where there are so many forces working against us unfortunately and the fact that this podcast and my story might help someone in their preparation. It might impact them. It might be what they need to hear to stay and get furiously determined. Oh my god. I love it. I want to give her a hug.” 

Meagan: I know, right? I just want to squeeze her and say, “I love you. I love you. Yes, you can. Yes, you can advocate for yourself. Yes, you can do the things that so many people in this world believe are unachievable.” It makes my heart so sad to know that there are so many people out there that want a different experience and are told they can’t or are told it’s not possible. Yeah. I love that you’re here. I love that you’re in this space. I cannot wait for your email in August myself. 

Kaitlin: Oh my goodness. I am so excited. Let’s get her her VBAC. 

Meagan: Yes! Let’s do this. Yes. You get so invested Kaitlin. It’s so amazing. You get so invested in this community. These people are writing and are like, “Hey, I have a question.” By the way, if you didn’t know, you can always email us at info@thevbaclink.com and write us your questions. We love speaking with you. We love doing consults. We love doing all of these amazing things to connect with you and to build you up whether that be through a consult or the blog or just an email or this podcast or our VBAC course. Whatever it may be, we want to help you through your journey.

Kaitlin: It’s amazing. What you guys are doing, I’m so excited to even be here. This is the work. I’ve been a doula. I’ve helped so many people achieve their VBACs and witness them. I’ve literally been in the room with them, but this platform and everything you’ve created with it is helping so many people. It’s so powerful to have this narrative change. It’s so powerful for us to tell our stories and counter what the doctors are telling us, counter what maybe other people in our families are telling us. This fear and this risk and this, “How could you be so irresponsible to think about a vaginal birth? How selfish?”

I don’t know if we’re allowed to curse here, but that is what drives me and that is so powerful to be like, “Nope. I did it. I trusted myself. I trusted my body. My body is not broken. I can do this with the right support, the right advocacy, and a little bit of luck.” Not going to lie, there is a little bit of luck in there. We can do this. That’s such an incredible message that we need to keep spreading again and again and again. How awesome is this? 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. I couldn’t agree more. Okay, you guys. We have Kaitlin and if you can’t already tell, we just are so passionate about birth and options and birth workers and all of the things. I’m so excited and honored to have you, Kaitlin, on this podcast. You guys, she is the founder of Be Her Village. Be Her Village. Definitely go check it out. She started doula work in 2014 which, you guys guess what? So did I. I didn’t know that until actually just barely. We started around the same time. She is so passionate about creating access to maternal care for all. She has a gift registry on this Be Her Village. You guys, it’s a platform. It is literally– actually, I’m going to let you talk about it because it is literally amazing and genius. Genius. 

Kaitlin: Thank you. 

Meagan: It is such a great tool for people because I’m sorry. I love all baby clothes. I love my baby clothes so much. 

Kaitlin: I love baby clothes too. I don’t tell anybody that, but I also love baby clothes. 

Meagan: I do, but after my two Cesareans specifically, actually even after my VBAC, luckily my husband was in a situation where he could be with me. He was home all of the time so we had the support but he could have even used some support. I loved all of those cute little baby gifts, but to have some resources or to have that doula that I wanted to hire with my second but my husband was like, “We can’t afford it. I don’t like the idea.” Right? Tell us about what you are doing with Be Her Village.

Kaitlin: Awesome. Absolutely. First of all, thank you for having me. Meagan, I just love you. I love what you are doing. Everyone who is listening, thank you for this space to tell my story. Be Her Village is just my answer to having a baby and having this perfect nursery surrounded by all of the gifts, all of the wonderful, generous things that my friends and family showered me with, and actually having nothing I needed. Just feeling completely alone, being post-C-section because I didn’t have a doula. I couldn’t afford a doula. I didn’t know that I needed a doula. That wasn’t the norm. I was just surrounded by all of these gifts and had none of the support. 

Breastfeeding was hard. The C-section recovery was hard. Life with a newborn was hard. It’s just difficult. What I’ve realized is that our community has so much love to give. They’ve sort of been tricked into this idea that all I need is stuff. We need stuff.

Meagan: Wipe warmers. 

Kaitlin: Yeah, wipe warmers and seventeen different bouncers.

Meagan: You don’t really wipe warmers. Yeah. 

Kaitlin: It’s a little extra. I feel like we can get all of the stuff in the baby nursery. You can get a whole baby’s store worth of stuff and you’re still going to need some support for yourself as a mother. So I thought of Be Her Village. I was like, “Why don’t we connect parents with doulas and why don’t we give doulas, lactation care, postpartum care, and pelvic floor visits as baby shower gifts?” 

What an incredible gift to be like, “I’m going to help you get your VBAC. Here’s a doula to help you advocate for yourself. Here’s a pelvic floor provider so you can get back to running, Cross Fit, or exercise,” which for many of us is a mental health tool. What about impactful gifts that actually care for the mother so she can take care of herself and her baby?

Meagan: Yes. Yes. This is something Julie and I did when we were together hundreds of episodes ago saying that you can afford a doula because we are huge advocates here for our doulas. Clearly, we’ve seen the impact and we just know this impact, but we talk about asking for money towards something else. You don’t have to. But this is an actual tool and resource where it is easy to do that. It is easy to do. It is easy to register for that. It’s incredible. I’m obsessed with it.

Kaitlin: Thank you. 

Meagan: I’m obsessed with you and I just can’t wait to one day actually finally meet you in person. 

Kaitlin: Oh for sure. 

Meagan: Yes. Just yeah and just to see you grow because this is so amazing. Women of strength, we understand. We understand that finances are not always in a place to have a birth doula, a photographer, a lactation consultant, a postpartum doula, and a PT pelvic floor or to give birth out of a hospital and all of these things. We know that these things cost. We know that they do but I’m telling you right now there is serious value in this and it is honestly so amazing to have a doula or support versus a baby wipe warmer or one extra pair of newborn onesies. 

Kaitlin: Yeah. I want to provide insight into that. It’s not just that it feels good to moms because that’s something that we’re not always comfortable with. “I’d rather get something for my baby. I don’t need to feel good. I can do hard things.” And we can. We can do more than we know. But using a doula reduces your chance of a C-section. Using a doula reduces your chances of an episiotomy which is where they cut your perineum. It reduces the chance of forceps use or vacuum use. It reduces–

Meagan: Time in labor. 

Kaitlin: Time in labor which I’m like, “Just sign me up right there. Are you kidding? Forget about it.” 

Meagan: Labor can be shortened by at least 41 minutes. 

Kaitlin: And you know what? It’s more than just the shortness of the labor, it shortens pushing time and it increases the APGAR score of the baby which is literally the baby’s health upon being born. There are just so many things that a doula does. It’s not a promise that one doula will do that for you but collectively when people line up doula support, their outcomes, and their baby's outcomes are better. If you’re thinking about a VBAC which I’m guessing you are if you’re listening to this, you need to get a doula. You need to think about a doula. It has always been this thing that I personally even as a doula felt uncomfortable saying and recommending because how can you say, “Hey, doulas are vital. Sorry, you don’t have $1000.” 

Meagan: Or more.

Kaitlin: Or way more. It’s such an uncomfortable conversation. That’s why I created Be Her Village because 12 billion dollars are spent on baby gifts every year for baby showers. It’s like, “Well maybe the generosity exists. Maybe the love exists and maybe the money exists. We just need to create a platform where people can line up their doulas and ask for them for their baby shower gifts.” That’s exactly what we did and we’ve had over $135,000 gifted on Be Her Village directly to parents. They’re getting the gifts. They’re getting the support and it’s literally the coolest thing in the world. 

Meagan: It’s so amazing. 

Kaitlin: It’s just so cool to see it come to life and to have people find out about it, then literally get better gifts that are taking care of them and improving their entire experience. Unfortunately, it’s because I needed it. I wish I could go back in time and do it again which is something we really often hear is, “Oh my god. Where was this when I was having my baby?” 

Meagan: Right? That’s why I’m here right now. I needed more. I felt alone in so many ways preparing for my VBAC. Everyone looked at me and was like, “What? You’re doing what?” I’m like, “Yeah. I want to push a baby out of my vagina. Why does that seem so weird?” Because I had that Cesarean, everyone was like, “No, you can’t do that.” I’ll tell you what, when I came around to that second C-section and was wanting to have a vaginal birth, it was even more mindblowing to people. It felt very lonely and cold. I was like, “No. No.” 

There wasn’t a lot of inspiration. Facebook was going on and there were stories being shared but there wasn’t inspiration like what we have today. There wasn’t a lot of knowledge in one spot so that’s why we’re here today. 

Kaitlin: I have to say that one of the things too, and there is so much to talk about, but this is actually part of my birth story too so it’s such an interesting place to begin. I think people legitimately think that vaginal birth and Cesarean birth are equally risky or quite honestly even the opposite. They think that vaginal birth is more dangerous than Cesarean. It’s like, of course. If that’s the underlying held belief, the subconscious belief is that vaginal birth is risk and Cesarean is not, then of course, Meagan, why would you do that? Why would you risk your life and your baby’s life just to have a vaginal birth? You don’t get an award for that. I’m just imagining what these people are thinking. 

Meagan: They would say that. 

Kaitlin: You don’t get an award and it’s like, “Well, hold on a second. What if we actually find out where the risk lies?” That was something. I was not set on a VBAC. Not at all. I was totally disappointed. I was probably the least impactful word I could use but there was just a defeated feeling about my C-section. I just felt like, “Oh, that wasn’t really what I wanted.” I also went into my VBAC birth, my second pregnancy sort of like, “I’m not going to take unnecessary risks for my baby or for myself just to get the VBAC badge or the vaginal birth experience.” 

You have to balance your desires with what’s risky and what’s safe. So I didn’t research. I remember one of the things that stood out for me was that I had this vision of– and I’m sorry. Get your earmuffs ready. This might trigger somebody. But I had this vision of vaginal birth ending in hemorrhage and being very, very, very scary and very dangerous. I don’t know. This is what you see in the movies. So I didn’t research this. I don’t know if you know this Meagan. I’m so excited if I can share this with you for the first time but vaginal birth hemorrhage is 500 ccs of blood loss. Cesarean normal blood loss in a totally run-of-the-mill, we-did-a-great-job, there-was no-extra-bleeding Cesarean, is 1000 ccs. It’s double. 

Meagan: Yes. 

Kaitlin: As soon as I realized that, I was like, “Oh. We’re not talking about the same thing. Everyone talks about vaginal birth and C-section on this leveled playing field and we are not in the same ballpark.” That is incredibly risky when it goes normally. It is twice as risky as when a vaginal birth goes horribly wrong. To me, it’s like, “Oh, we’re not even in the same stratosphere.” It’s a completely different thing. I think once we start talking in facts and figures and we start really sharing that, it takes so much of the fear away. The fear can be such a big monster to deal with when we’re talking about VBAC because it’s scary. There are unknowns. Every pregnancy is a little scary because fear is what drives us but if you walk away with one fact from this podcast, just know that it is not the same thing. It’s not even close to the same thing. 

Meagan: It’s not. It is not. It isn’t. Even with vaginal birth after a Cesarean, yes. There are risks to having a vaginal birth after a Cesarean, but it’s also not the same thing. There are also risks for a second Cesarean, a third Cesarean, and a fourth Cesarean, and the risks are pretty substantial. It’s important and I encourage you if you are preparing to actually look at the pros and cons of both sides. I also want to point out that sometimes the cons of a vaginal birth might make you be like, “Yeah, I don’t want to do that. That’s actually not what I feel comfortable with. That’s not what my heart says.” And that is okay. Also, know the risks and the cons of the other side. So know the pros and the cons of both vaginal birth, vaginal birth after Cesarean, and vaginal birth after multiple Cesareans. Know those risks. Dial in and decide what risk is applicable, safe enough, and comfortable enough for you. 

My risk, I live a little bit more on the edge. I have jumped out of a plane multiple times and I have a friend who thinks that is the scariest thing and she won’t do it because she has children. She fears the risk of dying. I totally understand. 

Kaitlin: I’m like, “I would VBAC every day of my life and I will never jump out of a plane. They are not the same risks.”

Meagan: Right? So not the same risks to you and to me. So I’m like, “Yeah, my risk is nothing. It’s not enough for me to not jump out,” and you’re like, “Yeah, no. I’m not doing that.” So it depends. There are benefits and risks to both sides. You have to decide what is best for you. What risk is impactful enough for you to make that decision? Know that it’s okay if you are not making the decision that Sally is making. It’s okay. It doesn’t make you any less of a woman of strength. It doesn’t make you any less of a mother. Nothing. You’re not failing your body. You’re not failing your baby if you make one choice or another. 

Kaitlin: Absolutely. The big thing is that you have to get that information so that you know the right information so that when you have to go talk to a doctor and they write you off and say, “Nope. We do repeat C-sections because it’s risky,” that you actually know what they’re talking about and you actually know whether you are at risk or not because there is a much bigger picture than what you might get at a standard OB’s office. 

Meagan: Yes. Absolutely, so this information is so important. Cesarean Awareness Month is April and one of the biggest things that a lot of say are, “So are we promoting Cesareans?” It’s not that we are promoting Cesareans, it’s that we are promoting information about Cesareans, VBAC, and your options. Even though Cesarean Awareness Month is in April, every month is Cesarean Awareness Month in my mind. Every single month and every single day is information that we need to be sharing, that we need to be getting out there because women of strength, you need to know these stats and these facts so that you can make the choice that is best for you. 

Kaitlin: Yes. Oh, I love that. 

Meagan: I don’t know exactly all of the choices and the things that led up to your Cesarean but for me, I didn’t know. I walked in. I was uneducated, you guys. I was young. I was 22. I just knew I was going to have a baby. I went to the same doc that my mom did who delivered me via Cesarean coincidentally and all of these things. I just didn’t know. It takes knowledge. It takes time. It takes time. If you are willing to put in that time, you will likely, even if it ends in a Cesarean, feel better about your outcome and carry on with your life. 

Kaitlin: Yeah, and that VBAC prep, I don’t think anyone here is anti-Cesarean. It’s such an interesting thing to point out because there’s nobody out there that is saying– April is not an anti-Cesarean month. 

Meagan: No. It’s awareness. 

Kaitlin: It’s awareness so that you can go in with intention, with a conscious choice, and with the information you need. You know what? I went through a whole research phase. I was not sure that VBAC was for me. I wasn’t because I wasn’t sold one way or the other, but the ability to have a choice is everything. That is where your power comes from. It’s not from being the loudest, the strongest, the fastest, or even having a VBAC. It’s about getting there on your terms. 

I know people who have had surprise VBACs believe it or not. I should send her to you. A surprise VBAC was not planned and she was kind of traumatized by it because she was planning a repeat C-section. She didn’t go through that prenatal that a lot of people listening are going through of, “Okay, so what are my options and how do I step into my path here?” Whatever that path might be, there’s a lot of power and a lot of healing in whatever birth you have, but unless you do that work of identifying your choices and not just your risk assessment but also your practitioners and lining yourself up with support, then you’re going to be sort of that passive participant. 

I think, not all of us, some of our C-sections come after being active, but with a lot of us, myself included, there was this passivity where as soon as I hit the hospital, I was stripped of my power, stripped of my clothes, stripped of my humanness, and told to lay back flat. Keep the baby on the monitor. Here’s your medication and boom. That’s a C-section. 

It all happened to me and I wasn’t actively there. That was a big part of what changed for me. I felt like I benefited from my VBAC whether I had a C-section or vaginal birth. For the record, I absolutely asked for a C-section as soon as I hit transition. I said to my doula, “Okay. I’m done. I’m done with this. Can we just get a C-section?” I’m really glad I asked my doula and not my OB. 

Meagan: Right? Right? Your doula and your team were probably like, “Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Let’s give her ten minutes.” That is a very normal thing too to say. We need to hear your stories. Let’s hear them. We could chat forever. But let’s hear these.

Kaitlin: Oh cool, okay. I know. We’re already halfway through. I can give you a quick synopsis of the C-section because I feel like it’s always relevant when we’re talking about VBAC. 

My C-section was a 41-week induction, the oldest story in the book. Mine was a little bit interesting because I actually planned an out-of-hospital birth and I planned a midwife-supportive birth. I got a little bit of the bait-and-switch. It’s a little spicy because in New York where I was giving birth at the time, midwives could not own a birth center. Now they can, there has been a huge push in legislation on that but at the time, I was told that midwives were in charge of my care and they were not. They were on the phone with an invisible OB I had never met. I did not know he was calling all of the shots. 

I always start off by saying that I planned an out-of-hospital birth with midwives. I thought I was doing all of the right things. That is part of what makes me feel a little extra angry about my treatment because I thought I was doing the right thing and I wasn’t. 

Meagan: They never told you that you were actually under an OB umbrella?

Kaitlin: Nope. Everything was midwife-facing. It was really disingenuous the way that they did that and then basically at the 41-week appointment, literally, an OB was on the phone with them in their ear telling them it was time to induce and I was sent to the hospital for an induction. I didn’t know that was the bad part. It’s only sort of upon reflecting and becoming a doula and realizing that, “Wait. They were never really in charge.” 

Meagan: You never actually had the midwife you thought you had. 

Kaitlin: No. I was not in midwifery care. I had a midwife mouthpiece for an OB. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. 

Kaitlin: That wasn’t great. It’s also awful because that’s the only birth center in New York. New York state is so far behind the rest of the country in a lot of ways and birth centers are definitely one of them. I want as a doula, in my heart of hearts, I want to recommend birth centers but I can’t recommend that one because of the way that they behaved and their ownership. 

So I went to the hospital and it was alarming to me how fast the power was stripped away. My voice– my midwife dumped me there and left me there. This is crazy to say because I’m such an advocate and I’ve doula’d people through so many things that to say I allowed this for myself is kind of amazing. I was given Cytotec, a double dose of Cytotec in the C-section recovery room. That’s where they sent me because I was in this busy Brooklyn hospital and I was set up with Wendy, the nurse, who I hate. I still remember Wendy. These people become bigger characters in your story. 

Meagan: They do. 

Kaitlin: Because they stay with you. But anyway, long story short, I went from nothing eating a sandwich with my family to absolutely full-blown, every three-minute transition level contractions. I couldn’t move. She wouldn’t let me move off of my back. I felt like a trapped animal. I ended up getting the epidural because my whole birth plan was out the window. 

Meagan: Oh, I’m sure. 

Kaitlin: I was like, “Why am I torturing myself?” and the baby didn’t respond well to the epidural. His heart rate went down and I just looked at my team. They all looked very nervous and I said, “What are we doing here?” She said, “The OB is going to come to talk to you in about 45 minutes.” I’m like, “This baby is actively in distress.”

Meagan: But your baby is not doing well.

Kaitlin: Actively in distress. The OB was going to come in 45 minutes. I looked at her and I say this, the only reason this is okay is because I said it. I would never say this to another person but I looked at her and I said, “I want a healthy baby. I want a healthy baby at the end of this.” I say that because it’s really toxic to be like, “At least you had a healthy baby.” It’s like, “Okay. I get to say.” What I was trying to say to her in the fog of the labor was, “After all of this misery and all of this horrible treatment, at the very least I would like a baby that’s alive and handed to me.”

So I did. I got a C-section. It was scary. It was cold literally and otherwise. It was not what I wanted. It was not the ending that I wanted. I ended up in my house. My husband was back at work. He didn’t have literally any time off and he was back at work the day that I was released from the hospital two days later. It was just underwhelming. It was not how I wanted to enter motherhood. 

Meagan: No. 

Kaitlin: In the least. I felt like besides the physical– the physical recovery was horrible and I recovered really well but it was just so intense. It’s major surgery. I also just felt disempowered. I felt highly anxious. I didn’t realize it until later that it was postpartum anxiety but I was just so set off-kilter by the whole experience. It just took my power and my voice and my strength away from me and then handed me a baby and a C-section scar. I was like, “Oh. That’s not how I thought motherhood was going to go.” 

Meagan: Oh my gosh, yeah. That’s hard and being alone. Oh, man. 

Kaitlin: Yeah, being alone. 

Meagan: It started your journey off really intensely. 

Kaitlin: It was really hard. Then when I had my second, I just knew it needed to be different. I knew I needed to do more research. I actually, this is funny. I did everything the opposite. I planned hospital birth. I planned an OB birth. I hired a doula. Everything I didn’t do, I did the opposite. But the thing I did along the way was that I was really intentional about all of my choices. 

I found the doctor that does VBACs where I live. There’s a handful of them and I found Jessica Jacob at North Shore. She does a lot of Orthodox Jewish women who see her. That’s her practice. A lot of those women have 6, 7, 8, and 9 babies so when they have a C-section if the thing is “once a C-section, always a C-section,” that can result as we talked about earlier, that can result in really dangerous situations. So she specializes in VBAC, vaginal births, and preventing those primary C-sections.

So I went to her. I had done my own research and then I went to her and said, “Knowing my story and looking at my chart, am I a candidate?” She said, “Absolutely.” I was like, “Okay, sold. I’m in.” 

Meagan: That’s awesome. 

Kaitlin: Yeah, it was really good. This one was so much less traumatic and not even less traumatic. I had a full-blown spiritual experience with my VBAC. It was completely on my own terms. It was private. The day that I went into labor was my due date believe it or not. What a magical little baby. Awesome and obedient and wonderful. Now he’s not. He’s not obedient at all. He’s 8 now. He’s not obedient. 

But it was actually Father’s Day in 2014. That was my due date. I woke up with these little Braxton Hicks turned into these contractions that would– you know the Braxton Hicks where they just tighten and release and you have them forever? It was like that except at the very height of it, it was this little squeeze that just took my attention. I was like, “Oh, what? What is this?”

Meagan: You’re like, “Oh, something’s happening.” 

Kaitlin: Because I had never been in my own labor. This is part of it. I had never been. I had this suspicion, you know that intuition, I just knew that if I could get into labor, I could do this. I went to an acupuncturist, one that my doula recommended. They put these beads on my ears. I don’t know if you’ve ever had this Meagan.

Meagan: No. 

Kaitlin: Okay, so they put beads on my ears in these pressure points and they taped them. Then he told me as much as I could, and I am touching on the actual points because that’s where they were. I’ll never forget where they were. And to just pinch them and just keep doing that as much as you can to activate. 

Meagan: Really?

Kaitlin: I did it. That was Friday. Friday night was when I went. I pinched and squeezed those until Saturday. I literally ripped the tape and the beads off. I was totally overstimulated and couldn’t touch them anymore but I did as much as I could. I remember knowing that I had an instinct that I was going to go into labor because I could not stop eating the day before. It’s so interesting how our bodies know. 

Meagan: It’s fueling. They’re fueling. Our bodies fuel. I did the same thing with my VBAC. It was so weird. I had all of this energy and was eating all of the stuff. 

Kaitlin: Everything. 

Meagan: Everyone was like, “How are you eating that much? You’re 9 months pregnant.” I’m like, “I don’t know. I’m so hungry.” 

Kaitlin: My husband, we went out for lunch and he got food for me, him, and my two-year-old at the time. I remember looking at him and I was like, “What are you guys going to eat?” I was insatiable which had been different from any other day. So anyways, I wake up on Father’s Day, the day of my birth and it was this incredible, gentle, slow labor which was such a wonderful way to learn how to work with my body. 

The whole morning was this questioning time of, “Am I in labor?” In between, I was literally like this talking in between. I would convince myself, “No, not in labor.” There was this whole discussion of, “Should we go to Father’s Day brunch?” Then I would have a wave come and I was like, “No, no, no. We’re not going to sit at a restaurant right now.” 

Meagan: Yeah, no. 

Kaitlin: So I labored like that all day with just me and my husband. We watched World Cup soccer. We got lunch. We were eating. I was learning how to move. I was learning how to breathe. Every single contraction was just this opportunity to figure out how to work with my body. 

Then the nighttime came. It’s what you learn in your childbirth classes. At night, the night falls and it signals this privacy and safety. Again, it was still just me and my husband. Things just picked up. Oh my goodness. I remember my doula called me. I had been texting her all day. I didn’t want anyone to come. It was so private. 

She called me and we spoke. I just gave her an update then we hung up the phone and it’s amazing the switch. Everything about labor is so mental and emotional. I just kicked into high gear. The waves that I was able to get on top of earlier, it was taking the full essence of my being to work through these contractions. It was so incredibly wild how fast that happened. 

We labored at home until maybe midnight. Yeah, about midnight. We called our doula. We had called the doctor and said, “Hey, I think we’re going to come in.” The doctor said, “Well, she might get turned away. She’s not ready.” Because this is what VBAC-supportive looks like. It looks like saying, “You might not be allowed to be here because that’s how I keep you safe in this hospital.” 

I remember that really stood out to me. It was like, “Oh, this is interesting what she is saying. Maybe I shouldn’t come.” So we waited as long as we possibly could. We called the doula around midnight. The doula came here to my house. I was on my knees next to my bed. I could not be in my bed for hours and hours. I looked at her as soon as she got there and I said, “Let’s go. It’s time to go.” She was like, “Oh, okay. I just got here.” Between my bedroom and my car, I had probably five contractions. It was just one after the other after the other. 

At this point, I’m thinking that I’m going to go to the hospital and spend the day there. My mom will come for the birth. I’m not really getting–

Meagan: Where you’re at. 

Kaitlin: Where I am in labor because it’s part of labor. You just kind of can’t tell. 

Meagan: It’s true. There’s no sense of time. There’s no sense of understanding sometimes. You’re like, “I know I’m feeling this, but it’s probably going to be a while.” 

Kaitlin: Yeah, that’s actually literally a part of it. You’re not supposed to know. Your brain shuts down. The prefrontal cortex of language analysis shuts down and you’re living in this beautiful other existence where you’re in a wave. You’re out of a wave. You’re in a wave. You’re out of a wave. 

So we went to the hospital. I walked all the way up. They offered me a wheelchair and I was like, “I literally cannot sit down. There’s not a chance of that.” So I waddled my way and had contractions every few minutes. When I got to the floor, they were like, “Okay, just skip triage. Go right to the room.” They took one look at me. I think they obviously knew that I was much closer than I knew. 

I went to go pee in the bathroom in the room right before I went to go lay in the bed and get checked or whatever. When I sat on the toilet, I had a contraction and I now know it was spontaneous pushing. But I had this contraction where it was like, “Oooohh.” 

Meagan: Yeah. Uh-huh, uh-huh. 

Kaitlin: At the top, the peak, when you’re moaning, it just caught. It was like, “Oh my god. I think I’m pushing.” It was this weird thing. It was weird because I hadn’t experienced it before. So I got in bed and everything was really a blur because the doctor came. She checked me and she said I was 6 centimeters and +2 station, -2 station. I wasn’t ready. When I was pushing and I was working, the best thing she did was she just said, “Okay. Just do your thing. I’m going to be right outside.” 

The nurses were skirting around asking me so many questions and I just ignored all of them. Where I was, was in the stars. I was just so far away from the hospital room. It doesn’t make sense but I just imagined this tunnel from the top of my head to the outer regions of the universe. That’s where I went. I went to this place that was just completely apart from the realities and the things that the nurses were worried about. I just could not care less. I was so deeply in tune with what I was feeling and where I was going in my brain and my body. 

I remember feeling so primal in a good way. The first time, I felt like a trapped animal and this time, I felt like this primal goddess being just feeling deeply connected to every sense of myself and every sense of my body. It was just wild. It’s hard to put into words but it was one of the most powerful experiences I’ve ever had laboring my baby down and pushing him out. There was no other anything at that moment. It was just me, my body, and this baby. It was the coolest thing I’ve ever done. 

There were funny moments in it too. This is the reality side of it. At one point, I was curled up on my side against the side of the hospital bed. In the middle of a contraction, the bed starts going up and down, up and down. 

Meagan: Was your head pushing it?

Kaitlin: I snapped at my husband, “Why are you moving the bed?” He was like, “It’s you.” 

Meagan: It’s you! 

Kaitlin: So it was quite the sight. But yeah, and he just flew out. My body just apparently, so I didn’t realize this until a lot longer later, but I experienced fetal ejection reflex with my next baby who was a home birth, but I experienced it with him too. He went from inside of me to in the doctor’s hands in one big push. It was just wild. It was really wild and it was really, really the coolest thing ever. It’s hard to explain how intense the moment is and how good it feels to have that relief.

Then the oxytocin was just pulsing. Everything is good. I remember he was put on my chest and he was so alert. He was so awake. He was not drugged. I was not drugged which was not necessarily part of the plan. I just want to throw that out there. I was wanting to go without an epidural but it wasn’t–

Meagan: Set in stone. 

Kaitlin: I wasn’t deadset on it, yeah. I was open to whatever happened. 

Meagan: Which is healthy. That’s a healthy way. 

Kaitlin: Because who knows? But it was so cool to have him go through those initial stages and be aware of his surroundings. I remember feeling even in that moment of joy, I remember feeling a little bit like I was experiencing what was stolen from me the first time around. It felt like a little bit of grief associated with that. I’m getting a little teary-eyed thinking about it right now. I honestly think it’s why I had a third baby. I should have had this. I should have had this the first time. He looked just like his big brother. It was just this feeling of, “I was really robbed.” I knew I was robbed the first time but I didn’t know what necessarily. 

Meagan: Right, because you hadn’t been there yet.

Kaitlin: I just knew there was something I was missing. There was this incredible feeling of triumph. That was absolutely the overwhelming feeling but there was this little linger of grief too, of just, “Oof. Now I know what I missed out on.” It was beautiful. I screamed from the top of my lungs, “I just had a baby out of my vagina!” Literally, the entire floor of the hospital could hear. My doula sent me a video of that later on. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh, I love that. I love that you have that. 

Kaitlin: Yeah, I’d have to find it but it was just this pure, pure triumph. I was forever changed by that. I was forever changed by the whole experience and that vaginal birth was the culmination of all of the work I put in. It was the culmination of doing the research, lining up my support team, and doing this work to be an active participant in my care. It was the best thing in the whole world and I am forever changed by that moment. 

Meagan: Yeah. I love that you said being an active participant in your care. It’s so important, listeners, for you to be that person in your birth and not have birth happen to you. We know it happens. We know. It happens way too often. I hope in time that we stop seeing it happen so often and it’s more of a rarity but right now, a lot of the time– I don’t want to make it sound like we are painting a bad picture on providers or the system or anything like that. I mean, look. You were going out of the hospital–

Kaitlin: And I still got burned. 

Meagan: It depends, right? But it’s so important and it all stems back to what we were talking about in the beginning is having the education, having the support, and being prepared to be that active participant and to be that person and finding those supportive providers that will say, “Hey, why don’t you stay? You’re probably going to get sent home for a little longer.” It’s just so important and it can be vital to the outcome of our birth. 

Kaitlin: Yes. That’s such an important thing, Meagan, if people are listening and trying to take things away. I think something that we can do often is, “I’m going to listen to this. I’m going to listen to as many birth stories as I can so I can learn exactly the formula. What did she do? What did she do? What is the thing that I have to do?” The thing you have to do is get the information and then trust your gut. Part of being an active participant is research, research, research, then trust your gut. That’s what I always tell people. Do all of that research, but at the end of the day, you’re the only person that can make each of these hundreds and thousands of tiny decisions for yourself. That’s the real formula. 

Meagan: Yes. 

Kaitlin: Trusting our instincts, trusting ourselves, trusting our own wisdom in these moments to steer us and guide us forward. 

Meagan: Yeah and just like each of our bodies is made out of different things and chromosomes and hormones and all of the things, we are made to be the person we are, we have to trust all of those things. Like she said, and create our own formula because her formula is going to be different than mine. She’s not jumping out of a plane. I jumped out of a plane twice because I loved it so much. I had to do it again. 

Kaitlin: I’m definitely not jumping out of a plane. 

Meagan: Right, I’m just saying that the formula is going to be different. You have to tune into your own formula and it does start with that intuition, education, and gathering support. 

Kaitlin: Meagan, you said it earlier too. I know we’re running out of time. 

Meagan: No, you’re fine. 

Kaitlin: You can see all of those stats and also do the opposite. You can see that it’s safer to have a C-section and choose a vaginal birth. You can see that vaginal birth is riskier for you and choose that anyway. The evidence is there. The “evidence” is there as part of the decision making but you get to do what feels right for you and your family and your baby and your body and your birth. That is the thing. Evidence is not everything. It’s one of the tools that we have. 

Meagan: Yes. Mic drop right there. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for being with us today. I mean, I know that we could talk for hours and hours and hours about all of the things. We probably need to do this again because of that. 

Kaitlin: I would love that. I love you and everything you’re doing here. Thank you so much for having me. 

Meagan: Thank you. Can you tell everybody where they can find Be Her Village?

Kaitlin: Absolutely. Behervillage.com is a great place to start. You can just hit the “Get Started” button. You can create a registry or if you’re a birth worker and you want to get involved with what we’re doing, you can add your services. We have training courses. We have so many great things. You can find us on Instagram and Facebook. Both are @behervillage. I’m in the stories. I’m answering the messages on Instagram so if you want to be in touch, that’s the best way. 

Meagan: Absolutely. We’ll make sure to drop all of those links in the show notes. So while you’re leaving a review, also go check all of these amazing links out because Be Her Village is incredible, doing amazing things, and is seriously so important. So, so important. Thank you again so much. 

Kaitlin: Thank you so much, Meagan. Bye, everybody!

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

Nicole joins us today from Canada. She has had an induced Cesarean birth, an induced VBAC, and is now pregnant with her third baby! Nicole shares her journey with IVF before pregnancy as well as what it’s like to have a subglottic stenosis during pregnancy. 

Meagan gives tips about the best types of induction for VBAC. You can be induced and still confidently achieve your VBAC!

Additional Links

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

The VBAC Link Facebook Community

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Meagan: Hello and welcome to The VBAC Link. This is Meagan and we have our friend Nicole with you today. She is from Canada and she has a VBAC story which is awesome. One of the things I wanted to talk about today within her VBAC story and her Cesarean story is induction. Induction is a hot topic, especially in the VBAC world. 

A lot of providers out there will not induce or they’ll tell people they can’t have a VBAC because of an induction needing to take place or people are scared of induction. I find that a lot of our followers are scared of induction. So at the end, I want to talk a little bit more about induction. 

Meagan: We are going to get into our review so cute Nicole can share her stories. Today’s review is, let’s see if I can get this to pull up. My computer’s slow here. It’s by Rucca the Silly Frenchie. I love that name. Lucathesillyfrenchie. The title is, “An essential resource if you are VBAC hopeful.” It says, “Writing this review from Columbus, Ohio. I’m a VBAC hopeful with my second daughter due on September 4, 2021.” So Rucca the Silly Frenchie if you are still listening, let us know how things went. 

It says, “After my first daughter was born via Cesarean due to a footling breech position, I knew TOLAC was in my future. This podcast has been beyond educational and inspiring. Be prepared to be addicted to listening to all of the powerful and unique birth stories from strong women around the country. Regardless of what happens with my upcoming labor, I feel empowered knowing I took a more empowered and educated approach with this pregnancy. Thank you, Julie and Meagan.”

Thank you, Rucca the Silly Frenchie for your review. I would love to know how everything went. If you guys have not had a chance to leave us a review, please drop us one. We love them and we love reading them on this podcast. You can leave them wherever you listen to your podcasts. 

Hi birth workers, this one’s for you. In an ideal world, VBAC parents would be treated just like other birthing parents. In today’s world, most medical providers sadly don’t fully support VBAC parents. However, 90% of parents with a prior Cesarean are good candidates to attempt a VBAC. This is why we have created the advanced VBAC doula certification program. In this doula course, we share evidence-based data for you to educate your clients, teach you the tools on helping them how to process past fears and trauma or help them decide if VBAC is even right for them. You will feel better prepared to support them during this beautiful experience. All VBAC-certified doulas are listed on our website so parents know who you are. To learn more, go to thevbaclink.com.

Meagan: Okay. Nicole, I am so excited. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your day. I know that all of you guys here who have recorded your stories are sacrificing time out of your day to be here to share this amazing content for all of these wonderful, hopeful listeners. 

Nicole: Thank you for having me. I’ll jump back to before my Cesarean, but this podcast was such a resource for me in planning for my VBAC so I’m happy to be a part of it in a different way. So thanks for having me.

Meagan: Yes, thank you. 

Nicole: I’ll start from the very beginning. My husband and I were high school sweethearts. We got married in 2015 so about a year after we got married we decided, “Okay. We’re ready to start trying to have a family.” I stopped taking my birth control pill and literally nothing happened. I wasn’t having any cycles or anything like that. So I went to my family doctor. We started inducing cycles and then going from there just on our own. 

It turns out that notwithstanding the fact that we were inducing a bleed, I wasn’t actually ovulating at all. So that’s fine. So then we started doing a couple of rounds of letrozole with her just with timed intercourse. We did five rounds of letrosole with that timing with her and then with no luck or success at that point, she referred us out to a fertility clinic where I was diagnosed with classic PCOS and ovulatory PCOS because I don’t ovulate on my own. 

So we did the first IUI with them. Again, no success with letrozole so that’s fine. We had another one scheduled. After doing all of that, I had stopped responding to the letrozole at the highest dose so then our only option was either superovulation or IVF and it just worked out timing-wise to do IVF and it made more sense to do that. 

We ended up going through IVF and because I had PCOS, the numbers that we got in terms of eggs were really, really good. We got 41 eggs which is insane. 

Meagan: Wow, yeah. 

Nicole: When it was all said and done, we ended up with 10-day five embryos which was really promising so that was good. We had our first transfer, a frozen transfer, in August 2018. It was successful so we were super excited. I had a really good pregnancy. I never felt sick. Aside from the first-trimester fatigue and exhaustion, I felt really, really good. I loved being pregnant. I was one of those annoying people. I never complained about being pregnant. I felt super good. Even at 41 weeks, I wasn’t like, “Oh, get this baby out.” I loved it. It was great. 

Of course, we did all of the things that you’re supposed to do like taking birth classes and all of those other things. I never had a birth plan per se. The birth plan and goal were just a healthy baby and a healthy mom whatever that looks like. Maybe in hindsight, we should have had something more concrete but I’m not sure it would have changed anything. 

Fast forward, I was 40 weeks plus 10 days, so 41 and a half weeks, maybe a centimeter dilated. Baby was just holding up shop. 

Meagan: Very comfortable. 

Nicole: Yeah, too comfortable, arguably. They decided to induce me and I was totally fine with that. They induced me with Cervadil. It was fine. They put in the Cervadil We stayed there at the hospital for about an hour or so. Everything on the monitors looked fine so this one woman said, “Come back when you have contractions for at least an hour lasting a minute,” or whatever the 4-1-1 is.  

Meagan: Yeah. Four minutes apart, one minute long, for at least an hour. I want to add in strength because sometimes it can be 4-1-1 and it’s not really strong so we go in a little bit early because we are seeing 4-1-1. Add strength in there if you are taking notes for when to go. Add strength. 

Nicole: Yeah, so when we left the hospital, it was fine. We went out for lunch and just hung around at home. Other things they told us before we left the hospital was if it feels like baby is not moving, if your mother’s intuition kicks in, to come back and they’ll make sure everything was fine and they’d go from there. 

It was around suppertime and I started to feel like, “Okay. Maybe baby’s not moving as much as she usually does or maybe I’m just being paranoid.” I said, “Let’s just go in. Let’s double-check just to be safe. I’m not going to get any sleep if I’m worried about her not moving so I’d rather just go in and get it checked.” We went in to get checked a little after supper so in the early evening. That was fine. 

They hooked us up to the monitors and everything looked okay. I could feel the contractions but I wasn’t really in any pain. I wouldn’t describe it as being painful yet. Baby looked really good and everything so they said, “Okay. You can go home” because I was still, I think, only a centimeter or maybe 2 being generous. They said, “Yeah, go home,” on the same kind of instructions so that’s fine. 

We went home. A few hours went by at home and now the contractions were quite a bit stronger and quite painful actually. I didn’t want to rush off to the hospital again because we had only just been there two or three hours before that but the contractions were very painful and very long. So I had one of those little contraction counters or whatever on your phone and I wasn’t sure if I was recording them correctly. I was logging them at two minutes but I was like, “That doesn’t sound right. That seems long.” I was like, “I can’t imagine spending the night at home with these feelings like this. I need something for my pain.”

I actually had my husband call the hospital and say, “Okay. This is what’s going on. If we come in, are we able to give her some pain meds and send her back home?” or send me back home if I’m not dilated enough yet to warrant admitting us. They said, “Well, maybe but you were already here for lack of fetal movement so there would be some hesitation about giving you something for it like morphine for example because then you are really probably not going to be feeling the baby. But come in. We will take a look at you and then go from there.” 

So okay, that’s fine. We ended up going back to the hospital maybe around midnight or shortly before then. It was quite late. I could barely walk through these contractions. They were so painful. In the back of my mind, I couldn’t imagine it getting any worse but I’d never done this before. Maybe my tolerance for pain isn’t as high as I thought it was or would like to think it is so that’s fine. 

We got back to labor and delivery. Right from the moment they hooked me back up onto the monitors in the triage room, you could just tell the vibe and the mood were completely different as soon as they looked at the strip. My contractions were lasting anywhere from 2-3 minutes. More than not as I was having 3, 4, 5 of them in a row without any break in between which was then really hard on baby because there was just no amount of time for baby to recover. 

So before one contraction would basically fully come down, another one would start. 

Meagan: Wow. 

Nicole: They were worried that the Cervadil has essentially hyper-stimulated my uterus. 

Meagan: Yes, that’s what I was going to say. It can do that. Cytotec and Cervadil can hyperstimulate. 

Nicole: Yep. So the first thing they did was take the Cervadil out. They said, “Okay. We’re just going to give you a little bit and see if things go down.” They didn’t. 

Meagan: Yes. But even Cervadil is less likely to stay in your body as long because it is removed so that’s a nice thing about Cervadil. 

Nicole: Yeah. They took it out and it didn’t change anything so then they gave me a dose of, I think it’s called nitroglycerin. It’s a spray. I don’t know if it comes in different forms but essentially it was described as what they can use in an attempt to relax the uterus and stop it from contracting. 

Meagan: They sprayed in your vagina? 

Nicole: In my mouth. 

Meagan: I was like, wow. Okay, in your mouth. Okay. 

Nicole: I think it’s also used for cardiac patients because it has the same effect on the heart if someone’s heart is having a heart attack or something. 

Meagan: If it’s too high or something. 

Nicole: Yeah, don’t quote me on that. I’m certainly not a medical professional but that was my understanding on that. Anyway, so they gave me something like five doses of that. Again, this is at this point a train that had left the station and nothing was working. Throughout this process, they were having me change positions so I’m being asked to go on my side and my hands and knees. I remember at one point, there was so much commotion and moving parts. 

I’m still having these super intense and painful contractions that they had asked me to move in some way and I said, “Okay, I just need a minute. I just need to catch my breath. I just need a minute.” The nurse very sternly but kindly looked at me and said, “We don’t have a minute. When we ask you to do something, you have to do it. We ask because baby is not doing well.” That’s kind of when despite all of the craziness, I clued in. I was like, “Okay. This is obviously maybe more urgent than I appreciate in the circumstance. 

So it was intense and scary. They decided that even though I was only 2 centimeters just to admit me because what are they going to do, send me home? They put me in a labor room because, until this point, we had just been in a triage room. Things kept going from bad to worse. At some point, it was decided that they would break my waters so that they could put in the little internal monitor to baby’s head. They did that. I had a few more doses of nitro. Throughout this whole process, I made it very clear, “I am pro-epidural. As soon as you can give me one, I want one. Give me one right now.”

They said, “Okay, we hear you but technically you aren’t even 3 centimeters dilated yet so you’re not even considered to be in active labor so we can’t give you an epidural yet.” I said, “Okay. Just so you know, I want one as soon as you are willing to give it to me.” I’m not sure how much time actually passed after. They broke my water and looked at the monitor until the call was made, “Okay. It’s time to get baby out.” But I kind of just remember the OB who was on call coming up to me. He was this big, intimidating man. He had such a gentle and soft voice. He said, “Look. Baby is not doing very well. I think we need to go in and get her. She’s not tolerating labor and it’s really important that we get her out as soon as we can.” He’s like, “Unfortunately, that means we are going to put you to sleep.” I was like, “Okay, that’s fine.” 

As soon as the words left my mouth, it was like, whoosh. A team of people rushed in. Somebody was in my face with a waiver that they were asking me to sign which in the moment, I get. But I was just like, “This is ridiculous.” Someone else was taking off all of my jewelry. My husband was being ushered out of the room. It was madness. We are running down the hall to the operating room which is, in our hospital, literally down the hall. 

So I’m on the table. They’re doing all of their counts or whatever they do. I’m basically awake and the anesthetist is sitting right by my head. He was complaining about how long everything is taking and how I should already be asleep and how we need to get the baby out which was terrifying. I remember he kept saying to me, “Just close your eyes. Just close your eyes.” I had never had surgery before so laying in this chaotic mess with someone telling me to close my eyes was so unsettling. I just remember being so scared to close my eyes because my husband wasn’t in the room with me.

Meagan: And they never let him in, right?

Nicole: They let him in after our daughter was born. 

Meagan: Being separated, how did that make you feel and being put to sleep?

Nicole: It was scary. I obviously wasn’t worried about my husband. I didn’t think at the moment about how he must have felt. I’m sure it was scary for him too. It just all happened so fast. There was hardly any time to feel anything other than fear because you almost didn’t have enough time to process any other emotion. But I just remember laying there. You’re strapped to the table naked, having these 10-minute-long contractions. I was almost begging them at this point to put me out because it was so awful. My husband wasn’t there so I was so thankful that there was this one nurse. I just remember hearing her voice come from somewhere behind me. I must have had this terrified look on my face because I had this anesthesiologist saying, “Close your eyes. Close your eyes.” 

She said, “It’s okay. You can keep them open. Everything’s fine.” It was the only moment of relief or calm that I felt in that entire OR. Everyone was doing their counts. Somebody must have asked where the sponge is for an antiseptic or whatever they use on your belly. The response from across the room was, “Nope. We’re just going to dump and cut.” I was like, “Oh.” All of a sudden, you feel this cold splash come across your midsection. 

Thankfully, they put me out shortly after that so I could stop listening to these conversations that were happening around me. But it was very scary. It turns out that baby was born a couple of minutes later. When it was all said and done, from the time the call was made that they needed to do the section to when she was born was less than 10 minutes. In my mind, it felt like this eternity but it wasn’t. It was quite quick. 

They brought my husband into the OR just as they were walking my daughter over to the warmer. He got to see her right away. She was totally fine. Everything was fine with her which was nice. They heated her. She went up to the nursery while they finished the section and were stitching me back up. I woke up a few hours later and they brought my daughter and my husband over to the recovery to see me after. 

I had a really good recovery in terms of C-sections. 

Meagan: That’s great. 

Nicole: Yeah, it was really nice. I don’t actually remember being in any pain after the fact either in the hospital or at home but I did struggle in the weeks that followed bonding with the baby which really took me for a loop. We had spent so much time and emotional energy and money trying to have our family and trying to have a baby. Then here’s this baby in front of me and it sounds awful to say now to feel almost nothing, to feel indifferent. I didn’t have this overwhelming sense of loving joy. 

I certainly didn’t want any harm or anything or have thoughts of harm that way, but the easiest way for me to describe it is that I felt indifferent. It didn’t really matter if she was crying to me. I didn’t really care if she was there or if I got to hold her or if someone else held her all day. I was indifferent. 

Meagan: Yeah. I call that a disconnect. You’re just not fully connected. It’s not that you're not recognizing that she’s there or anything, you’re just not feeling that full connection that we hear about. 

Nicole: Yeah. 

Meagan: But that’s also really common when you’ve had the type of Cesarean that you had or just Cesarean in general too. It happens in vaginal birth too. 

Nicole: I thought that was the case at the moment. I did think it was because I really didn’t have a birthing experience. At one moment, I was pregnant. The next moment as far as I was concerned, I woke up and I’m not without anything really connecting the two. That was kind of the struggle emotionally for those first couple of weeks. It kind of resolved itself around 7 or 8 weeks. It’s never been an issue and I’m obviously obsessed with my daughter and I love her. Thinking back on those memories and feelings is hard. Once we got through it, it was good. 

So that was the birth of our daughter. Shortly after she turned one, we started talking about having another child. We always knew that we wanted more than one. I come from a family of three and my husband comes from a family of four. We always thought that in an ideal world, more than one would be great. 

We did another frozen transfer in August 2020 which was successful so that was really exciting again. Similar to my previous pregnancy again, I felt really good. I was never sick. I loved being pregnant. Then I found this podcast and I listened to it religiously. I knew that I didn’t want to have an elective section. I really wanted a VBAC. That was the goal in terms of if I didn’t have a birth plan the first time, the birth plan the second time around was a VBAC. 

I found a doctor who said that she would deliver our baby. She wasn’t delivering babies with our first but she was back delivering them. She said that even if she wasn’t on call that day that she would come just for us to do ours which was really nice. She was super supportive and very much like, “If you need to be induced, we can talk about that.” She wasn’t insistent that I go into labor on my own or by a certain date or whatever the case was. I felt very much in good hands with her. 

Meagan: Yeah in not putting those restrictions on ever from the get-go. 

Nicole: Yes. That was really nice. It was such a weight off of my shoulders from the beginning. But it was the fall of 2020 I guess it was that both personally and many people around me noticed that my breathing was really poor. Part of me just chalked it up to being extremely out of shape. I was a new mom. I wasn’t doing as much as I had. But it really hit me when I started noticing that when I would read my daughter her books at her bedtime. You know toddler books. There are five words on every page, but I would have to stop between each page to catch my breath just sitting at rest. 

Meagan: That’s concerning. 

Nicole: Yeah. So I thought that maybe there was more to this. We went. Through a series of referrals, we ended up at ENT. He said, “This looks like something but I’m not one that can fix it for you,” so he referred us to a further specialist just in the next practice over. I was diagnosed with what’s called subglottic stenosis. 

Meagan: I’ve never heard of that. 

Nicole: In the simplest form, it’s a narrowing of your airway. It’s not scar tissue from my understanding but just normal tissue kind of like an overgrowth of normal tissue that causes this narrowing. It was likely caused by my intubation during my Cesarean. 

Meagan: During your Cesarean. 

Nicole: Yep. There was just something about my airway that didn’t like being touched and this was the result. The specialist informed me that it was about a third of the size that it should be and that it would be dangerous to attempt to labor without having a surgery to open it back up. 

Meagan: Wow. 

Nicole: That was another hard decision but we decided to go ahead and get that surgery while I was pregnant. I got that surgery. It’s called a dilation where they open it up with a laser and a balloon and all of this stuff. I had that surgery at 24 weeks and it was amazing how much better I could breathe. I didn’t appreciate how bad my breathing was until they fixed it. You don’t realize how much of my day and my time I spent just thinking about breathing so that was really nice. 

Then we were given the green light to TOLAC and try for a VBAC. The rest of the pregnancy was uneventful. I ended up going overdue again. I was 40 weeks and 7 days, I guess 41 weeks. It was decided that at that point, I would be induced because I was only a centimeter dilated. There were no signs of labor. So, fine. 

This time obviously though, they said, “Under no circumstances can we use Cervadil,” so we decided that I would be induced with a Foley bulb. We went to the hospital. They put in the Foley bulb that morning. They said, “Okay. Come back when it falls out.” It fell out a couple of hours later that afternoon. We went back to the hospital. I should add that during my pregnancy after my dilation surgery, we had an anesthesia consult to make sure, “Okay, what can we do to avoid another intubation?” It was decided, “When you come into the hospital, we’ll give you an epidural probably earlier than would usually be offered just in an abundance of caution to try to do everything we can to avoid intubating you.” So that was fine. 

We got to the hospital. They started me on a low dose of Pitocin. Contractions started to look like they were getting longer again and not really following that nice pattern that they like to see. Our nurse started getting a little nervous and concerned and suggested that we call anesthesia to do the epidural which sure. I’m totally on board with. I was proepidural from the very beginning with the both of them. From my perspective, I didn’t need to make my life or job harder than it already was. 

Anesthesia came in and gave me the epidural. It was great. I felt nothing. Then the contractions actually fell into a really nice pattern after so no one was worried. We hung out for two or three hours at the hospital again contracting. I had no idea. I never felt anything. At one point, I said to my husband, “It feels like I peed a little bit.” He was like, “You have a catheter in.” I was like, “Yeah, but I feel wet.” It turns out that my water broke on its own which was nice but I didn’t have any urge to push or anything like that. 

They said, “We’ll let you just hang out for a couple of ours. Just let us know if you feel that urge.” That urge never came so they said, “Let’s start pushing anyways because it’s been a little bit since your water broke.” I said, “Okay.” We pushed for about an hour and a half and then at that point again, baby started having some decels and it looked like baby was starting to not tolerate labor that well. 

Slowly, the vibe became a little more tense. The message started to be, “Okay. It’s time to get this baby out. We have to push this baby out sooner than later.” At some point, the call was made to use the vacuum to help that happen sooner. That was all explained to us and we said, “Okay, sure.” The vacuum was used and then the baby came out two pushes later. 

When my son was born, I didn’t get to hold him right away. He wasn’t crying. They took him over to the warmer right away. He had no tone. His body was completely limp. He wasn’t crying. He was breathing, but only barely and had the flared nostrils and all of those telltale signs that he was working really, really hard. 

Meagan: The traction and all of that. 

Nicole: Yeah, so they had him on the bag and worked on him for about 15 minutes. In that time, he never cried. He never perked up so it was decided that he needed to go off to the NICU to get some extra attention there. 

My husband went with him to the NICU. I stayed behind. I ended up having a third-degree tear that required some attention. They took me up to the NICU once I was all ready to go a couple of hours later. It turns out that he had a severe meconium aspiration so he actually ended up spending four days on a ventilator and was in the NICU for nine days. 

Meagan: Was there any sign of meconium when your water broke?

Nicole: Not when my water broke. Before, I think right before the call was made to use the vacuum, I do remember our doctor saying, “It looks like there is a lot of mec in there,” but there was no mention of it when my water broke. 

Meagan: So maybe during labor. 

Nicole: So I’m assuming it was sometime after that but during the labor that it happened. That was a scary experience, but he’s totally fine now. He’s a happy, strong, healthy boy. We just call him as being built to last because nothing phases him. But my VBAC wasn’t necessarily what I had envisioned but ultimately it was really successful and a better emotional experience which is weird to describe because there are a lot of emotions around having a child in the NICU. I didn’t have any issues bonding with him. I felt that connection to care for him right away. 

If anything, if nothing else, I’m hoping that having that VBAC, it will help what will hopefully be my next VBAC better. I’m actually currently expecting. 

Meagan: Awesome! Congratulations!

Nicole: Yep, so we’re hoping that the third time is the charm. Yes, so I’m just shy of 31 weeks. We are due April 1st. 

Meagan: Really soon! Actually, right when this episode airs you will have a baby. 

Nicole: This kid is probably going to be late too. 

Meagan: You’ll either have a baby or just about having a baby. Oh, so fun. 

Nicole: Or will be preparing for one. My husband and I always joke that getting the babies in and getting them out usually takes quite a bit of work, but baking them is where I thrive. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Nicole: The plan again, even with everything that happened with my son, the recovery was quite difficult with a third-degree tear, but we’re going for another VBAC. We’re hoping like I said, if anything, my son will help pave the way for hopefully a smoother, less eventful experience. 

Meagan: Absolutely. Your chances are higher of that. Sometimes that first vaginal birth, even if there is no previous Cesarean, can be a little longer or have things like forceps and vacuum and things like that. It can happen. So hopefully like you said, it will pave the way and be a beautiful redemption. They all have been great but a redemption birth of the two with less drama maybe. 

Nicole: Less drama. Less excitement. I just want a nice, run-of-the-mill birth. But yes so it will be good. I’m glad that I experienced it. I wouldn’t change it. 

Meagan: Yeah. You are still happy with the outcomes. 

Nicole: Yeah. I’m still happy we had the VBAC. Everyone is happy and ultimately, that has always been our thing. Healthy baby, healthy mom. Whatever that looks like, we can deal with but hopefully it looks like a VBAC. 

Meagan: You’ll have to let us know. Definitely let us know. 

Nicole: Yeah, I will for sure. 

Meagan: That’s awesome. I want to talk a little bit about induction. I’ve been taking notes along the way just about things that you’ve said. Right before I get into induction, something that you had said during your first, something that they said to you is that they were just going to dump and cut. You heard that and then you were gone. Those longlasting words, I think it is so important to note to everybody listening especially if you are a provider, that words matter. Words matter. Even though you may not be thinking that something that you say that your patient is going to hold onto, it’s possible that they will. 

I don’t think that you held onto dump and cut, but I heard that and that is a very scary thing. “We’re just going to dump and cut.” I just want to remind everybody to please be mindful of your words when you are with someone especially in a vulnerable state. 

But induction. I want to talk about induction. I just want to talk about what ACOG says and going over 40 weeks and stuff like that. Because Nicole is proof that induction can happen and VBAC can happen. An induction can happen and a VBAC can happen with no complications. Sometimes it can’t and we don’t know why. We can’t always blame induction at all, but I don’t want you to be scared of induction. I don’t want you to be so terrified of induction that it consumes you because I know that some of our listeners are in that space especially because they had an induction that spiraled down and went Cesarean. 

I want to talk about how ACOG concludes that, “Induction of labor between 41 and 7 and 42 and 7 can be considered. 42 weeks to 42 weeks and 7 days is recommended given evidence of increased morbidity and mortality.” Something has changed over time and that is the ARRIVE trial. We have a blog about the ARRIVE trial and we have a blog about induction. We have a blog about going over 40 weeks. 

Since this has happened, we see a lot more people at 40 weeks and if they haven’t had a baby yet, providers are rushing to get babies out. I just want to let you know that doesn’t have to happen, but if you choose to induce, that’s okay too. Just like Nicole said in the beginning of her induction story, no she didn’t qualify for Cytotec or Cervadil because she is a TOLAC, but she had a great induction with a Foley catheter or a Cook catheter. Depending on where you are at, everyone calls it something different. Those are really great alternatives. You do have to be dilated a little. Sometimes they can give Pitocin a little bit and then give a Foley. 

But talk with your providers. I encourage you to talk with your providers. I feel like her provider really said, “Okay. Here’s what we should do and this is why.” It worked out in Nicole’s benefit. I want everyone to know that induction doesn’t have to be scary. Right, Nicole?

Nicole: I don’t think the spiraling with our son had anything to do with the induction. 

Meagan: It just happened. Sometimes we have babies that have a fast transition or during pushing and meconium is really common too. So yeah. I know people who go into spontaneous labor and have meconium and I know people with meconium aspiration with induction. It just happens. I felt like there are lots of people on here who are living proof that induction is possible but Nicole just said it right here. She’s been induced and she had two very different circumstances with induction. Take it slow. Speak with your providers. Go over all of your options and remember that words matter.

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

We are bringing you extra episodes all month long in honor of Cesarean Awareness Month! 

Meagan and Julie kick off the conversation with a passionate discussion about the realities of birthing in a hospital setting. Doulas are birth workers who uniquely experience births in all settings. Meagan and Julie share what they have seen and how it has formed the strong opinions they have now. 

Additional Links

Julie’s Website

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

The VBAC Link Facebook Community

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Julie: Welcome, welcome. You are listening to The VBAC Link podcast. This is your cohost for the day, Julie Francom. I’ve missed you guys so much. It’s so fun to be back here but I am also here with Meagan Heaton, the cofounder with me of The VBAC Link. We are so excited to be on a really special episode with you today. We were actually having lunch together the other day and talking about life, birth, and everything. We just decided that it would be better if we recorded the conversation so that’s what we’re going to do today. We’re going to record our conversations about birth, VBAC, and everything in between. 

Before we get into it though, Meagan has a review for us. 

Meagan: Yay, yes I do. It’s always so fun to have you on Julie. I am excited to have our conversation that we were having the other day only recording it because it is definitely a great conversation to be had and to be heard. If you guys didn’t know, April is Cesarean Awareness Month. This month, we’re going to be kicking off with some extra episodes in addition to our stories. Here is number one for you. 

As Julie said, I do have a review of the week. This is from mathletic and it says, “Empowering and Addicting.” It says, “This may be my second time leaving a review, but it is because I am preparing for my second VBAC and felt that it was necessary. I first found this podcast as I prepped for my VBAC in 2019. I religiously listened to a new episode on the way to and from work daily and am always excited for Wednesday morning’s new episode.” 

Julie, that is crazy to me that people have been listening since 2019. 

Julie: Forever. 

Meagan: It is 2023. It says, “This podcast has given me so much education and strength that I took going into my TOLAC and achieving my successful VBAC in May 2019. I am now preparing for my VBAC as I am 36 weeks pregnant and due in early June.” 

This was in 2022 by the way so last year.

“Although I have now had a VBAC, I knew starting my mornings off with this podcast again with this pregnancy would be something that would help me get into the right headspace. I sometimes feel like Meagan and Julie are now my new friends.”

We are. We are friends with all of you. 

Julie: We are your friends. 

Meagan: Yes. “As we commute to work together–” We’ve been commuting to work with her, Julie. 

Julie: Yeah. 

Meagan: “I am very bummed to learn that there was a break, but I am so pumped when I found out that they were returning this May.” So yeah, seriously, this was a long time ago, you guys. We returned in 2022. “Thank you for all that you are doing in helping us mamas feel educated and strong as we go into our next births. I recommend this podcast to all my friends even the first-time mom friends as it’s been such a great wealth of knowledge going into any birth.” 

I could not agree more. This podcast is going to teach you so much and not only how to have a VBAC but how to avoid a Cesarean in the first place. As we know, Julie and I were talking about this, Cesareans are through the roof. It is above 32% here in 2023. It is sad. It’s scary and it’s concerning. It is concerning. Why are we having so many Cesareans? We are going to take one moment and then we are going to get going into this wonderful new episode. 

Meagan: Okay, Julie. Hi. I miss you. I love you. I just saw you last week. 

Julie: It was so great to have lunch with you and just jibber-jabbering away about life, the birth work, getting old, and my salty attitude about birth. We’re going to talk about it.

Meagan: Your salty attitude. You guys, she has become a little salty and sassy. 

Julie: I am. I’ve always been that way, but I feel like I was pretty good at toning it down and being diplomatic, especially doing The VBAC Link and things like that. I definitely have opinions as we all do. I was just making sure that we were including everybody and that everybody has a safe space here. We certainly want to do that on this episode as well, but I will hit 100 births this year. Meagan, you are probably at 600. 

Meagan: No. 

Julie: But either as a doula or a birth photographer and you know what? One thing that I wish people could understand a little bit more or take more seriously is that doulas and birth photographers probably have the most unique perspective on childbirth because we see births in the hospital, out of the hospital, at birth centers, with hospital OB/GYNS, hospital midwives, out of hospital midwives, and unassisted births. We have seen a few of those. We have such a unique perspective and we see how things unfold in each environment with each intervention and with each provider. 

I wish that somebody would hone into that and try and work to collect those experiences and perspectives because if you ever want to hear about the state of childbirth in the United States and probably even in the world because a lot of countries are not too different from ours, talk to a freaking birth worker that does hospital and home births because that is where you’re going to find these priceless gems and perspectives that you’re really going to learn from. 

Yeah. I just wish that people could see that. 

Meagan: It’s hard because we have clients hire us as their doula or their birth photographer and we talked about this at lunch the other day how we come in and one of the mean things as a birth worker that we are going to do is talk about what birthing experience that person wants. It is important to us as birth workers and as your friends to help you get the best experience that you can get and help you get a lot of those things that you desire. Am I wrong there? That is one of the biggest things. 

Julie: No, I think that’s right. 

Meagan: That’s one of the biggest things of what being a doula is. It’s one of the most important things is helping these clients and helping our parents get these births that they want. We come in and we ask things like, “What would you like for your birth? How do you envision your birth? What kind of things do you desire to happen or not happen in your birth?” It’s more often than not a very similar answer. 

It’s usually things like, “I would like to labor at home as long as possible. I would like to go unmedicated. If not, as long as possible before getting an epidural. I would like to have a vaginal birth and avoid unnecessary interventions.” 

Julie: Don’t want to be induced. 

Meagan: “Don’t want to be induced. I want to go into spontaneous labor,” is just what I was going to say so they don’t want to be induced. “I want to avoid a Cesarean.”

Julie: “I want my water to break on its own.” 

Meagan: Yep. “I want to avoid a Cesarean. I want to push as my body and myself direct.” 

Julie: “I don’t want to push on my back.” 

Meagan; “I don’t want to push on my back.” Things like this. If you’re listening to this episode, I’m assuming you’re shaking your head, “Yep. That’s what I want too. That’s what I want too.” It’s not a bad thing that we want these things. It’s not a bad thing. 

Julie: It’s a good thing. It’s natural. It’s instinctual. It’s primal. 

Meagan: Yes. These things are things that we want for a reason. What I hear when I hear these things is, “I want to birth the way my body is going to birth and was made to birth.” Right? 

Julie: Yep. 

Meagan: But as birth workers as Julie was talking about, we have this interesting perspective because we’ve seen things. I’m not going to sit and say that I’ve seen all of the scenarios and all the things in birth. I’m not. Again, no I have not been to 600 births but I have been to a lot. I’m still learning as I go but there are so many situations where I can see things unfolding. So we have this client and these people that are wanting this type of birth and then what Julie? 37, 38, 39 weeks. 

Julie: “Oh, we’d better do an ultrasound to see if your baby’s measuring big or check your fluids My gosh, I hear you complaining so much about being pregnant. Let’s just induce at 39 weeks. You can pick your baby’s birthday. You can do this.” Or all of a sudden, maybe your blood pressure is maybe a little bit high so maybe you have preeclampsia so you have to test that. What does that do? It stresses you out so it makes your blood pressure high even more. 

Everyone starts to get a little anxious because the due date is approaching. Mom, dad, and parents are getting anxious. Providers are like, “Okay, well we don’t want you to go past this date” Especially with VBAC. Oh my gosh, it’s not safe to go after 40 weeks because that increases your chance of uterine rupture. Not true, by the way. 

Meagan: Or we’ve got a big baby. 

Julie: “Or we’ve got a big baby and your last baby was 8.5 pounds so we want to make sure.” All of these are non-evidence-based reasons because people treat 40 weeks like an expiration date rather than an average. That’s when, in a hospital system, things start to happen that decrease your chances of all of those beautiful, perfect, wonderful things that you want in your birth. 

Meagan: Yes. 

Julie: Sorry, go ahead. 

Meagan: No, you’re fine. You’re fine. I was just going to say that this is what we see happen so often. We meet with our clients at 24-34 weeks pregnant and these are their desires. This is what their hearts and their souls are saying. Based on a lot of the time, what they have learned too. They know the evidence-based information so they are like, “Based on that, I don’t want to do these things.” But then 37, 38, 39, 40 weeks come and we have these new introductions and new seeds being planted.

For some reason, those things leave. They leave our minds. 

Julie: Well, you’re tired. You’re very pregnant. You’re easily influenced and yes you want to be done. Yes, it sounds nice to be done sooner. Oh no, you don’t want to have a complication or preeclampsia, or a big baby. That sounds scary. Shoulder dystocia sounds really complicated. In some instances, it is for sure, but when you start planting those little seeds, then they grow into self-doubt. It’s easy to confuse our worries and our fears with intuition. 

Meagan: They’re lost. Yes. Yes. That is the hardest part. We are getting these seeds planted and then they’re being watered. The seeds are growing and the roots are pushing out what our intuition was saying from the beginning. Then we make choices and decisions. We are human beings that have the opportunity to make these choices and decisions, but sometimes we are backed into these corners because our seeds are being poured on. We are being flooded with overwhelming, scary feelings. 

As a birth worker, it can be frustrating. I’m going to be super honest. Julie must be spitting the salt at me. I don’t know what she’s doing here. It’s so infuriating to see and heartbreaking to see someone we know and loves go into this space that we know is not where they wanted to go and then see the cascade happen when it didn’t need to. 

The other day, everyone at Zupas was probably like, “Whoa. These two broads are crazy.” We are very animated. 

Julie: We weren’t very quiet. 

Meagan: We’re not quiet people first of all and we are animated. I feel like in the past, Julie has been a little bit toned down with her bluntness. She’ll be blunt but I’m over the top and she’s like, “Oh my gosh, Meagan stop.”

Julie: Now I’m just like, “Heck yeah, girl.” 

Meagan: So us together, we’re at Zupas saying these things. One of my questions is, and I wish I had the power, knowledge, and time to produce this huge study because I really want to know what happens if we do nothing. What happens? What happens? Julie started adding to that. Do you want to talk about what you added to that?

Julie: Yeah. 

Meagan: Do you remember? 

Julie: Yes. Okay, sorry. My mind is going on 17 different paths right now like it usually does. I think if you really, really, really want to get a good perspective about birth, really sit down and talk to a doula. One that you haven’t hired because I know when my clients hire me, they hire me for my knowledge and my experiences and to support them. I’m not going to say my full, unbiased opinion to a client because I don’t want them to feel like I’m not supportive of them. I am supportive of them. 

Meagan: Or jading them. We don’t want to jade. 

Julie: I don’t want them to get doubts about their birth plan going into it because everybody else is planting doubts so I don’t want doubts to come from the doula. But really, sit down and talk to a birth worker because I’ll tell you what. I see way smoother births at home. I see way less need for induction at home. I see more love and support in the birth space at home or a birth center. I see more mother-led pushing, way more mother-led pushing at home. I never ever see anyone birth on their back at home ever. I see more partner involvement. I see kids involved. I see whoever you want at your birth involvement. I see mothers who are satisfied with their birth experiences at home. 

I see babies healthier and more skin-to-skin time and happier families and happier outcomes at home hands down. Yes. Are there a few here and there where it is hard and they need more help or there is a hospital transfer every now and then? Sure, but I guarantee that you are more likely to have problems and your baby is more likely to have problems in a hospital because it is set up to control things and it’s not set up to trust the mother-baby unit, to trust the parent-baby unit, the birthing person, whatever pronouns you choose to use, insert them here. 

It’s not set up like that. It’s not your provider’s fault. It’s not your nurse’s fault. It’s not anybody’s fault. It’s the system and the way that it’s integrated and taught to these health providers that birth has to look xyz and has to be done by xyz. The baby should be this size. The mother’s xyz has to look like this. It is all set up to facilitate a system that does not trust the parent-baby unit. It does not trust it. At home, it is very well-trusted. It just is. It just is. 

I don’t want to sugarcoat it. This is maybe where my saltiness comes in but you are way more likely to have that birth experience at home. Yes, it can be done safely. Yes, there are still providers at home that will keep an eye on you and transfer you as soon as you might need any medical assistance because it does save lives. It has. We’ve seen it. We know it, but most of the time, you are— yeah. I’m just going to pause that here for a second and go into where you were trying to lead me here, Meagan. 

Meagan: You’re just fine. 

Julie: Sorry. I just have so many opinions clearly. 

Meagan: It’s passion, Julie. It’s passion. You are passionate because you are seeing things. I am too. I’m seeing things that are unnecessary. They are unnecessary. We will circle back to where I was going, but we will start where you were at. There are so many unnecessary things that are happening in the system that is so frustrating as a birth worker to see because we also have seen the other side. We have seen. Yes, Julie and I personally have experienced the other side. She was at home. I was at a birth center. We have seen it and experience it. The passion that is coming to you through this episode is because we believe. We know as we’ve experienced it ourselves as people who have given birth in a system that is “off” the straight and narrow path as a lot of people will say. 

When people were hearing that I was going to VBAC after two Cesareans out of the hospital because I kept it quiet from most people. But you know what happened when it happened online. People were attacking me, “How dare you?”

Julie: People are going to throw salt at us now for this episode. Message me on Instagram @juliefrancombirth. I will engage with you. 

Meagan: But no. This is passion coming from you. This is your passion in saying, “I have seen other things. I’ve seen other opportunities.” 

Julie: I’ve seen the other side. 

Meagan: We know. We know, women of strength. We know that it is not always suitable, comfortable, or appropriate for you to birth outside of the hospital. We know that. We do. We definitely just have seen things outside of the hospital that are incredible. 

Julie: Way better. They’re way better. They are. Hold on. Let me interject here for just a second. People might say, “Oh, well you’ve only been to a hundred births. Providers do a hundred births a week in a hospital.” Not a hundred births a week. That would be a lot. But significantly more. I am not going to argue that at all. I’ve only been a doula for 8 years, 100 births. That’s 10-12 a year besides having babies in between then as well. Last year, I did almost 30 which was super great. 

But here’s the thing. When you’re in a hospital, you’re only seeing hospital births. You are only seeing hospital births. You are only seeing, I don’t even know statistics for this, maybe 90-95% of people have an epidural in a hospital? I don’t know. Maybe 70%? I don’t know. I should probably rescind that number. But a lot. And if you don’t have an epidural, guess what you have? You’re hooked up to an IV. You have continuous fetal monitoring. You are in the very system that we’re trying to break away from right now. That is what you see. You don’t see hands-off birth. You don’t see the normal, physiological process that happens when you do nothing. 

Yes, at home you have intermittent monitoring every 30 minutes. You do the lab work and stuff like that. The routine tests and everything like that is done at home prenatally and during the birth, but what happens? You don’t get to witness that if you work in a hospital in the labor and delivery unit. You don’t get to see that. 

Meagan: Just a quick search by the way, it’s 65-80% of people receive epidurals and stuff. 

Julie: Huh, there you go. 

Meagan: But yeah. They don’t. Their opinions is tainted a little bit. This is why I kind of wish that I had the power to do this study. If there is one and you are listening and you are aware of this study, please let us know. But the study of what happens if we do nothing? We know the ARRIVE trial. We know that if we induce people at 39 weeks, we sort of know what happens. 

Julie; Do we induce them at 39 or do we induce them at 40 and 5? 

Meagan: This is the thing. Really, this hasn’t really been done for a long time. We know that ACOG says 42 weeks is the cutoff. We’ve got an increased risk of things like stillbirth and things like that. But okay, so at 42 weeks, we assess. But what happens if, at 38, 39, 40, and 41, we do nothing? What happens if we don’t strip our membranes? What happens if we don’t even perform a cervical exam until 42 weeks? 

Julie: What happens if we don’t talk about induction? We don’t even talk about it. 

Meagan: Yes. Don’t talk about induction. So what happens if we do nothing? What does our Cesarean rate do then? I’m really curious. Do we go down? Do we go up? Do we start having more issues? I don’t know. 

Julie: What does maternal and fetal mortality look like? Because right now, it is a disaster. 

Meagan: Yes. It just makes me wonder. Cesarean Awareness Month is something that is near and dear to our hearts. We want to bring awareness to it. Cesarean is 32.1% right now. 

Julie: Yeah. It went up. 2020 and 2021 preliminary data, the Cesarean rates went up. Surprise, because of COVID. 

Meagan: As a birth worker, what do we know that happened during that time? What did we see? I’ll tell you what I saw. Induction, induction, induction. 

Julie: People’s support system’s being taken away. They wouldn’t even allow partners there. Guess what else happened? Everybody put masks on. Who feels secure? Some people had to push their baby out wearing a mask. Birth, being a very instinctual and intuitive process, anything that creates that feeling of unsafety or difference or fear will interrupt that process. It will make it less efficient. 

So when you were taking away people’s partners from the birth room, when you’re making everyone wear a mask in the birth space, when you had a positive COVID test, or if you did not want to do a COVID test, people would come in wearing hazmat suits. 

Meagan: Even the fear of testing positive and then the threat of everybody being taken away including the baby. 

Julie: Yeah. All of these things interrupt that process and then yes, people with COVID. I can’t even imagine what it was like in the healthcare system. I cannot even imagine what it was like to be a healthcare worker during COVID and having to deal with all of that also. But then needing to also predict and schedule births to control the number of patients coming in and out of a hospital created this “need” for induction and for causing things to be a little more predictable for everybody. I can understand that to a degree but also, but it introduces the need for other interventions to get the baby here including a Cesarean. 

Meagan: Right. We’re seeing this stuff happen and it is just so hard because if you’ve been with us for a really long time, you know. You know what we’re for. We’re here to educate on birth after Cesarean. We’re here to educate you on your options for birth. That doesn’t mean you have to have a VBAC either. Right before this call, Julie and I had another call. We were talking about not necessarily advocating for a Cesarean, but we’re also not saying you’re bad for having a Cesarean, right? We’re not pro-Cesarean people. We’re not advocating for unnecessary Cesareans, but at the same time, we’re not shaming anyone or wanting to make you feel bad for choosing that route.

Julie: Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s important to say that. Our intention is not to shame anybody but also there’s a certain point where you’ve got to stop sugarcoating everything. I tell this to my clients too. I’m not going to bounce around the issues with you. I’m going to tell you things. I’m never going to lie to you. I’m never going to say xyz. I’m not going to tell you, “You’re wrong for choosing this,” or whatever because I don’t think anyone is wrong for choosing this but I feel like it’s so easy to get coerced into doing something we normally wouldn’t have done. I feel like it’s so easy to feel safer in a hospital because that’s how we were raised. 

I feel like some of these things are ingrained so deeply in us that it’s hard to break away from them, but I also am not going to pretend that people’s choices are conducive to their birth preferences. There are just some things that don’t go together. Natural birth in a hospital does not go together very well. It just doesn’t. Not natural, but unmedicated, hands-off birth does not happen well in a hospital. It’s a lot harder and it’s much more of a fight to get that in a hospital versus out of a hospital. 

Meagan: Yeah. Well and I think too it’s important to talk about creating that space and that environment. If it’s in the hospital, okay. But let’s talk about how to set that up, how to set that space up. We just recently posted about creating a more homey, comfortable environment. We’ll make sure to drop all of it if you guys are interested in checking out these awesome things like getting into your own birthing gown. 

Going to a hospital, taking off your clothing, and Julie you just talked about this and in a second I want you to bring up what you were talking about with me, but naturally, showing up to a new location with new, strange faces. It’s maybe a little cold. It’s maybe a little foreign. It’s maybe a little staged-looking. Everything is folded up on the bed. Then take off your clothing. What does that do to our body and to our mind? It puts us in an uncomfortable feeling.

Julie: A little bit of a fight or flight mode. 

Meagan: We talked about putting on this thing that is open in the back so our butts are showing. So getting into your own gown, into your own soft, cozy, comfortable gown can bring you some comfort even though you are still changing once you’re getting there or maybe you go there in that. Maybe you prepare and you get in that before and you go. Or maybe you don’t like IVs and the bottom of an IV looks yucky. There are IV covers to take it away and make it feel less hospitalized because you are in a hospital. But Julie, talk about what you were saying earlier. I was like, “Huh. I’ve actually never thought of that.”

Julie: I saw this on Instagram a few days ago. I’d seen it circulating around before. I wish I knew what account it was so I could tell you to go look at it, but I don’t remember. Maybe I saved it. I’ll have to look it up while I’m talking. But it basically said, “What would happen if we conceived babies in the same manner that we deliver them?” In order to get pregnant, okay. We need to preface this with sometimes how people need interventions to get pregnant and sometimes you have to have IVF or other things in order to have a baby. 

But for most people, what if in order to conceive a baby, instead of being in the comfort of your own home with your partner, or I guess wherever you decide to conceive in a car or a forest or wherever, a movie theater. Anyways, whatever your choice, not my business. What if instead of that, you first went to a hospital, changed into their gown, got your blood pressure taken, got hooked up to an IV just in case you need to have some kind of medication–

Meagan: Have monitors placed on your belly. 

Julie: Have monitors placed on your belly, have nurses come in and out and tell you that you can’t get started until the doctor comes in– 

Meagan: Asking you lots of questions. 

Julie: Asking you about your insurance, your cycle, when your last period was, and all of these things. I don’t think you’re going to make a baby in that situation. You bring your partner and be like, “Okay, partner. Go get changed now.” Your partner gets changed and everybody’s watching you. Everybody’s watching you. 

Meagan: You’re on the monitor outside. 

Julie: I mean, when babies are born, everyone’s watching. Freaking hands are in the vagina and freaking everything. What happens if we conceived babies that way? How would that work? How would that work? Let’s flip this around. Let’s flip this around. What happens if we birth our babies in the same manner that we conceived them?

We get in our house, movie theater, car, forest, whatever. We go into our home. We turn the lights down. We run a hot bath. We snuggle with our partners. You probably don’t want to have your kids or mother-in-law in your space, but what happens if we created that same environment to increase the flow of our natural hormones, to safeguard and protect that process and make it as intimate as it was when we conceived our babies? 

Meagan: Yeah. It’s a big question. 

Julie: It’s way better and I can say that it’s way better because I’ve had my own, but also, I’ve seen over a hundred almost births and I see the contrast. I see the contrast and it’s a beautiful situation when it’s allowed to unfold naturally. Every once in a while, I’ll get a nice unicorn birth that has a nice, unmedicated, parent-led birth in a hospital but it’s very rare. 

Meagan: I want to talk about that because, with Cesarean Awareness Month, that’s what we do during Cesarean Awareness Month. We talk about things. We do see preventable Cesareans and preventable interventions. Talking about advocating for birth after Cesrean and advocating for yourself, here we are. We go into this space, into the hospital, and we are vulnerable. What do we do? We feel vulnerable because I didn’t go to school for 4+ years. I didn’t study this. I went to the forest and conceived a baby. 

Julie: Or a movie theater. 

Meagan: I went in. I have this. I’ve learned. I’ve learned, but now I’m in this space and I’m vulnerable. It’s bright. Like Julie said, it’s this less-ideal space to give birth. We would never conceive there, so why would we give birth there? But if you’re in this space, what do you do? What can you do to create a better space? A better environment? 

We just had a mama. She wasn’t a VBAC but her video went viral. 

Julie: Katelyn!

Meagan: Yep, Katelyn. Maybe actually she might not have been– actually, her episode hasn’t even aired yet but you guys definitely need to check out the video on our social media because it is so incredible. Chills all the way from head to toe. It went viral because she advocated for herself. She had nurses. Bless their heart, we love nurses. By the way, if you’re a nurse, we love nurses. I don’t want to say we hate nurses. But she had nurses following their protocol–

Julie: Trying to get her on the bed. Getting baby’s blood pressure. 

Meagan: Trying to get blood pressure. Trying to monitor baby. They tried to get her on the bed and tried to give her a cervical exam, because how would it be if she was 4 centimeters and her midwife was called to come? These things are being told to her. She is pushing out a baby as she’s being questioned for all of this stuff. She’s literally pushing a baby out of her vagina and standing up in this hospital room. That scenario and that story is few and far between because it is hard. It is so hard. You guys, I was a mom in a birthing room the other day at the veterinarian. I had my puppy. We’re sitting there and this doctor is like, “We have to do this. We have to do this. We have to do this.” You guys, I’m a doula. I know how to advocate. Do you want to know what happened? This is a real thing. This really happened. 

Julie: You have a puppy?

Meagan: He’s like a puppy. He’s five but he’s like a puppy. My pup. So we’re there and he’s telling me all of these things we have to do. Not only is he telling me what we are having to do, but he’s also doing things to my dog in front of me, then telling the nurse what he’s doing and charging me for these things that I did not ask for. I did not consent to them. I left and I literally paused and thought, “Holy blippity bleep, blah blah blah, bleep.” That is what happens in the birth room way too often. 

Julie: Yep. 

Meagan: Women of strength, we do not want this to happen to you. Julie has spit her salt all over and it’s all over me too. We’re feeling it. 

Julie: Oh, I’m not done. 

Meagan: We’re feeling it. We’re feeling it. Don’t let these things happen to you. It’s okay to stand up for yourself. It is okay to say, “No, thank you.” It is okay to say, “I hear you. I respect you. I feel differently. I don’t want to do that.” Or maybe at a later date. Or maybe at a later time. 

Julie: Or just cancel your prenatal appointments. I’m not advocating for that, but I’ve had clients be like, “You know what? I know when I go for my 37-week visit that they’re going to push for this and this so I canceled. I’m not concerned. Everything’s healthy.” 

Meagan: Yeah, you just don’t have to do anything. I think one of the biggest things and one of the biggest places we can start at avoiding these unnecessary Cesareans– 

Julie: Is by staying home!

Meagan: It’s by staying home and advocating. You guys, y’all can tell where Julie is. She’s feeling it here at home birth. 

Julie: I just see it. Go ahead. You go then I’ll go. 

Meagan: I’m just saying that it’s okay to stay strong. It’s okay to stand strong and try your hardest not to let your vulnerability because it’s there. You’re so vulnerable in the end. You’re tired. You’re miserable. You’re vulnerable. We just want this baby in our arms. We just want this VBAC more than anything. Don’t let people break your vulnerability, sneak in there, and take advantage of you because there is no need. Obviously, if there is a medical, true medical reason, we understand that. Right? They happen. Like Julie said earlier, we’re grateful. We’re grateful.

Julie: There’s no shame in that. You should have mercy on yourself if you got railroaded either by the system or by an unexpected emergency. Have mercy on yourself. Give yourself grace because it happens. It’s not okay that it happens if the system is the cause of that, but it doesn’t make you a bad mom. It doesn’t make you a bad human. It doesn’t make you a bad anything. It’s just what happens sometimes. 

Meagan: Most Cesareans are unplanned because we had no idea what was happening, but a lot of the time these Cesareans are happening because they are sneaking in, these little sneakers. I don’t even know what. I was going to call them weasels. They are weaseling their way in and tapping into our vulnerabilities. I was not the vulnerable one with my second C-section. My husband was and my provider saw it. He snatched it and turned him against me. What did I do? I walked down for a second, unnecessary Cesarean. 

We don’t want these things to happen to you. We want to bring awareness and maybe you’re like, “Wow. These chicks are coming in strong.” But you guys, we are passionate. We love you. 

Julie: We want you to have the birth you want. That’s why. Nothing hurts me more than loving someone, knowing what they want, and seeing them get railroaded in a hospital setting. We see it a lot. 

Meagan: That’s what we see most of these times. 

Julie: A lot. Especially more as a birth photographer. As a doula, I was more involved in the prenatal prep. Sometimes I show up to births as a birth photographer and I’ve never met the people. They fill out my questionnaire. They hired me. I come in and I’m like, “Hey, I’m Julie. You’re in labor. It’s nice to meet you.” Those are the hardest ones. I’m never going to watch someone suffer. If you’re suffering, I’m going to put my camera down and I’m going to help you. But for first-time parents that didn’t feel the need to do any type of childbirth education or learn anything about the process, you just sit there and watch them get railroaded by the hospital setting. You’re watching trauma unfold and you’re just like, “How is this happening?” But you know how it’s happening because you’ve been watching it for years. I’m talking about myself in the third person or second, or whatever person. 

But here’s the thing. It breaks our hearts. We see it all the time. We see it in The VBAC Link Community all of the time. So many times, people are like, “My water broke so I went into the hospital. I’m only 0 centimeters dilated. They started Pitocin. It’s at a 10 and I don’t know what to do. I’m not dilating and contractions aren’t coming. Help me.” This could have been stopped if you knew that it’s okay for your water to break without labor starting and to wait at home for 12-24 hours for labor to start on its own and rest, hydrate, and watch for fever or chills or anything like that then go to the hospital. It’s a simple thing to learn but people don’t think that because they trust their system. They’re going to the hospital and getting railroaded. So many times we see that. All of a sudden, you’re water has been broken for however many arbitrary hours your hospital decides is important, and then you get a C-section because all of these things happened. If you would have just known that it’s okay to stay home, and there is evidence of staying home. We’re not just making this up. There is evidence to support this and just takes a little bit of time to learn. 

But anyways, that’s why I’m sounding really salty today is because I see people get railroaded by the system all of the time. All of the time and it breaks my heart. It breaks my heart. I can leave birth and not be super affected by it anymore usually, but these birth experiences are yours. They’re going to affect you for the rest of your life. We don’t only know that. We don’t want you to be railroaded by the system. We want you to know and follow your heart and follow your intuition. If your intuition is telling you, “Unmedicated birth, not pushing on your back, not getting induced, not wanting cervical checks,” then you probably want to birth at home because as soon as you walk out of the door when you are in labor to go to the hospital, your chances of having that birth go down a lot.

Meagan: Yeah. I mean, studies show that people are much more likely to have interventions in labor and birth as soon as they are admitted in labor, especially in early labor. If we rush to the hospital, but in your mind, you’re like, “I don’t want to do this. I don’t want to do that. I don’t want to be induced. I don’t want interventions,” but the second we start contractions, if we run and go in, our chances of interventions are sky high and the chances of Cesarean are high because we’re pushing these things that are leading to Cesareans. Don’t shame yourself and offer yourself grace if you’ve experienced an unexpected, undesired Cesarean. You are not alone. You are not alone. But know that you have options. Sometimes I want to say to open your mind a little bit. Whether you come back to that openness or not, you come back to that original idea or birthing location, open your mind a little bit and learn the stats. See the stats. Hear the stories. Hear what it can be like.

I don’t want to take away from anyone who has birthed in the hospital and had a beautiful experience because they can happen and they do happen. They do. But yes. There are a lot of other things that can happen in the home or outside of the hospital that may not lead to interventions and things like that because we’re at home and we’re doing those things. We’re doing more of nothing. We’re not doing a lot of anything. We’re doing nothing. We’re watching. We’re trusting. We’re having faith. It’s so important to understand that your body is capable of doing this. I’ve had some consults lately that broke my heart because people have literally told them they can’t. They won’t. They shouldn’t. 

Those three words. They can’t have a vaginal birth. They will never have a vaginal birth. I was told that. Right here, I was told that I would not get a baby out of my pelvis. Hello, okay. They shouldn’t and they can’t. Don’t believe that. If you are listening to this podcast, whether you be a first-time mom, a second-time mom, a VBAC, a CBAC, a HBAC, breech. 

Julie: A breech BAC. 

Meagan: Whatever your history is, whatever you’re coming from, know that you are capable. You are capable of making these choices. You are capable of doing this. It is totally possible. Totally possible. Yes, we might sound salty today. We might sound aggressive. 

Julie: We’re passionate. We’re seeing women get hurt by the system. 

Meagan: It’s really hard, but sometimes, we have to have these hard, raw conversations. 

Julie: Direct. 

Meagan: Direct conversations to say, don’t let the system get you. Don’t let it get you. Don’t let it bite you in the butt. It doesn’t have to be like that. It doesn’t have to be like that. I hate that it even has a label as “the system”. You guys, this is a system. It’s unfortunate that it has come to this. It is unfortunate. I wish that we could all just go back to the farm. Let’s have the farm everywhere. Ina May’s farm. Let’s bring back the farm and just give birth like that. Don’t you think, Julie? Wouldn’t that be lovely?

Julie: That would be beautiful. I think it’s a double-edged sword because up until the 1940s, 1950s, maybe a little bit earlier than that, probably the 1920s or 30s, most people gave birth at home. You only went to the hospital if there was an emergency or if you were at higher risk. 

Meagan: And there were some downfalls about birthing back then too. 

Julie: Right. That’s what I’m getting at because there’s a reason why people transfer to the hospital. In the advent of the 50s, 60s, and the 70s, mostly the 70s, all of these new technological advancements and things like that provided ways that we could save lives that otherwise would have been lost. For that, we are incredibly grateful. We are so grateful. 

Like we talked about a little bit earlier in the hospital, with that, it has evolved into a system that tries to control the birth process so it’s a trade-off. I feel like an ideal situation would be where everybody births without intervention unless there are true emergencies. We’re not talking about emergencies like, “Oh, I was induced at 39 weeks and my body wasn’t progressing past a 4 and it’s been 48 hours. My baby’s heart rate is starting to go down so now I have to have a Cesarean.” That is a hospital-created, emergent Cesarean. That is a system-created circumstance where a Cesarean became necessary. 

That happens so much. It happens so much. We have been raised to go to the hospital and have babies. We get induced. My mother-in-law was induced on her due date every single time. She had her babies every time on her due date. She had five kids. Everything went perfectly well. She has no trauma. Who really knows? It’s been a while since those things but she speaks very fondly of her births and that’s okay. That’s good. But now, we are a generation of traumatized women from our birth experiences. You go into a room with four people that have had babies, I guarantee that two of them had a really rough experience. That’s another number I’m just making up. You’re not going to be able to find any resources for this. 

Meagan: What do they say? Two out of five people have unexpected Cesareans or something like that. Say at a restaurant and have everybody raise their hand that had a Cesarean. That’s the question. Have you ever had a Cesarean? A lot of arms are going to go up. How many of those Cesareans were planned? There are going to be some. 

Julie: Less than half I would say. 

Meagan: There are going to be some that stay up, but most of them were unplanned. 

Julie: I have a cousin that had four Cesareans. The first one was unplanned, the three other ones were scheduled. She says, “It’s the best way to have a baby. You go to the hospital, go to sleep” because she would go under general “then you wake up and have a baby.” She loves it. She speaks very fondly of it. That’s the way that she likes to birth and that’s okay. I don’t want to come off as romanticizing home birth because birthing at home is hard. Sometimes your baby is in a wonky position or sometimes your body might be not quite ready. It’s going to be a longer and harder process. Sometimes emergencies happen and you have to transfer to the hospital. Things like that happen. I don’t want to make it sound like that never happens because it does. 

I think there are three major home birth studies now that show it’s just the mortality rates for mothers and babies are similar in the hospital and at home, so there is not enough difference to say that one is better than the other, but also, at home, guess what is less? Less postpartum hemorrhage. Less chance of the baby needing resuscitation. Less chances of severe tearing. Less chance that baby is going to the NICU at home. It’s worth considering. It’s worth exploring and my gosh, if you are a 100% hospital birther, I think Meagan touched on this a little bit earlier, we encourage you to check out home birth resources in your area. Just check them out. Just go and talk to a home birth midwife. Ask her what she does in the case of an emergency, what would risk you out of birthing at home, and just talk to them. You don’t have to hire them, but talk to them and see what else is available. See if your intuition jives with that. If your partner is on board with a home birth because it’s going to freak them out, and you feel like it’s something that you want to explore more, it’s time to sit down and have a serious talk with that partner. 

Do not let your partner or your provider take away the chance of having the birth that you want because they feel uncomfortable about it. 

Meagan: Yeah, that’s a hard one. That’s a whole other–

Julie: I know it is because it’s important. You should respect each other’s opinions. You should. You should respect each other’s opinions. You should respect your partner. You should understand where your partner is coming from. You should take their point of view into consideration. You should be able to come to a compromise, but if your partner is not willing to do that for you, then that’s a problem. 

Meagan: I want to just quickly before we end, plug in some numbers. Look, you guys. Are you so proud of me? Julie, you should be proud of me for talking about numbers. 

Julie: I am proud of you. 

Meagan: This is what you usually do. 

Julie: Before we get into that, I want to say one more thing. I understand that some of the things that we’ve said are probably going to be pretty emotional for some people. Maybe some people have gotten triggered. Maybe some people just hate us now and they’ve already unfollowed us on Instagram, who knows? I say us but probably me too. Probably a lot of VBAC Link people follow me on Instagram as well. Let me try and figure out how I’m going to circle back around and say this. 

If you have been triggered by this episode, I really, really encourage you to lean into that trigger. Don’t run away from it. Don’t slash The VBAC Link. Don’t unfollow us. Don’t unsubscribe. Don’t trash talk to your midwife buddy about us. I guess you can do all of those things. It’s really your choice. But I encourage you to really lean into that trigger because I wish that we were a society of owning our triggers instead of blaming other people for our triggers. 

Triggers are our own emotional responses caused by some sort of unresolved trauma or issue in our life. If you lean into that trigger and explore it and figure out why it’s happening and where it’s coming from, you’re going to be able to heal emotionally and become a better human. It’s going to affect your future pregnancies, your future births, and your future interactions with other people. How would it be to not ever feel triggered like that? It would be really cool. I wish that I was never triggered but I also know that when I get triggered, instead of running away from it, I have learned to really lean into it, explore it, figure it out, and resolve that. I encourage you that if something we said has triggered you, then lean into it. Maybe leaning into it is unfollowing The VBAC Link. Who really knows? But I bet you that there is a deeper issue there. 

I wish or I hope that you would take some of the things that we have said here and consider them. Maybe lean into that too and explore a little bit more some of the things that we are talking about and why we are feeling this way. I also encourage you to talk to a local doula or a birth photographer and ask about their experiences observing home birth and hospital birth. That’s my little parting piece. 

Meagan: Great, you’re right. A quick plug-in before we talk about these numbers, if you are not aware, The VBAC Link has VBAC-certified doulas all over the world. I’m serious, all over the world. So if you are looking for a VBAC Link doula or if you are looking for someone that’s really educated and knows their stuff about VBAC, knows how to support you, and also to help find a really solid provider and location and help you determine where is best for you, check out our directory at thevbaclink.com/findadoula. Search your area because seriously, these doulas are incredible. 

Julie and I a long time ago, back in 2018, started–

Julie: 2018, 5 years coming up. Oh my gosh, in a couple of more months. 

Meagan: Yeah, back when we got together and started this company, our goal was to help change the VBAC world. We cannot do this alone as individuals, so we have all of these incredible doulas helping us out there. So if you are looking for a VBAC doula, I have to gloat about them because they are amazing. 

Julie: Really amazing. 

Meagan: But let’s talk really quickly before you go about success rates. There’s a study that has been done. It was published in 2015 but I believe that it was from 2004-2009 which makes me even wonder now after COVID what it would be because home birth and HBAC have skyrocketed since COVID because a lot of people were, just like we were talking about in the beginning, having their people stripped from them, having to wear a mask, having to deal with the fear of losing their baby if they tested positive and all of these things. 

But this was a while ago. The success rate was examined. It’s a lower number like 1050 or something like that but the rate of successful HBACs was 87%. 

Julie: That is pretty amazing. Do you know what I love? That’s higher than APA because APA says that 60-80% of people who attempt a VBAC will be successful. 

Meagan: Just in general, a VBAC, yes. 

Julie: That’s general. Hospital, home birth, movie theater birth, whatever. 60-80%. But this at home, did you hear that? 87%. 

Meagan: At home, 87%. Now, I want to talk about transfer rates. They had an average of 18% transfer rate. 

Julie: That’s kind of high. 

Meagan: It is kind of high but I want to talk about that because a lot of people might think of an 18% transfer rate and they automatically go to Joe Rogan’s page and hear, “Oh, what they are saying is so true. All of these terrible things are happening.” You guys, no. Yeah. Did you see it? 

Julie: No, send me a link.

Meagan: There’s a video. You’ll have to check it out with Joe Rogan and this lady. I don’t even want to get into it. It was so annoying. I just rolled my eyes the whole time. Anyway, the majority of these people that were transferred, I want to preface. It was not because there was a crazy emergency. It was most common for failure to progress. Failure to progress we know has a lot of things. We know that sometimes failure to progress can be due to cervical scarring or maybe we’ve had really long prodromal labor and things like that. There are a whole bunch of different reasons why but failure to progress and they needed to go to the hospital to then benefit from some of the things that the hospital offers like Pitocin or something like that? 

But still, only 18% which I know sounds high but still, 87% had a successful VBAC at home, so an HBAC. 

Julie: Okay, so I also want to say two things. First of all, the study might have had certain protocols to follow for a transfer. That might have caused the transfer before it was necessary. I don’t know. I haven’t seen this study. But also, the second thing is that I heard somewhere, and it might be different with study protocols, but I heard somewhere and I feel like my circumstances support that most hospital transfers are due to maternal exhaustion. They are so tired. They have labored for so long but I don’t have a number to back that up. But that’s interesting that that study shows that. That’s really cool. 

Meagan: Yeah. There are things. We know that women at home can sometimes lack resources, but you can also talk to your provider if you’re birthing at home and talk about, “Hey if I’m not progressing, what kind of things can we do to help progress?” Sometimes that’s processing and sometimes that’s nipple stimulation. Sometimes that’s getting everyone out of a room, turning off the lights, and taking a nap. There are so many things that go into it but it’s a pretty small study relatively. But still, wow. It does represent something. It represents something and we can’t ignore it. 

But anyway, we are pro-choice. We are pro everybody making the best choice for them but we do. 

Julie: We’re also pro-not watching the system railroad people. 

Meagan: I was going to say that we do see so many things that are so avoidable. I’ve had clients in the past years. One client probably two years ago, she was 38 and 5 I want to say. I’d have to go back and look at my notes and the provider was like, “I don’t know. You look big. It looks like this baby is measuring big. It could be anywhere from 8-10 pounds. We should probably induce. I will totally support this VBAC but let’s induce.” The cervix wasn’t doing much. It just wasn’t an ideal spot to be walking in for an induction and they required breaking water. They wouldn’t put Pitocin in. When the water was broken, they needed Pitocin after that which is interesting. 

She got up to a 1 and started Pitocin, had an IUPC placed, an FSC placed, and all of these things. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and it was just so hard because you guys, I adore this person. I adore this person but it was so hard to see these things and see the path that it was going down knowing that the end result was likely coming to a repeat Cesarean when that’s not what she was wanting. It was so hard texting my doula community, my resource group that we all have as birth workers saying, “You guys, pray. Pray. Pray that this is just one of those miracles because it’s one of those situations that we see too often.” It did. It ended in a repeat Cesarean. It was healing. It wasn’t an emergency. She did heal from it, but it didn’t need to happen. 

I can’t say that for a guarantee. I can’t say something wasn’t going to happen, but it didn’t need to happen that way. So women of strength, here we are. We love you. We know that you are in a hard situation. We’ve been there. We’ve been there. Julie’s been told by providers in the hospital that she would rupture. I was told that I would rupture. No. You were told that your baby would die. 

Julie: Me and my baby would die. 

Meagan: Yes. We were told these really scary things. Do we hate the hospital? No. Do we hate it? No. Do we hate what we see in it? Yes. 

Julie: Yeah, a lot of time. 

Meagan: We hate it. We hate what we see. I mean, not always. I can’t say that we always hate what we say but so many times we hate seeing things that are just avoidable. So here we are. Know that we’re here. We’ve got our course. We’ve got the blog. We’ve got this podcast. We’ve got our private Facebook community. We have Instagram. We have so many resources filled with evidence-based information. 

If you are wanting to up your VBAC game and learn the history of VBAC, learn about Cesarean, the history of Cesarean, learn about VBAC, learn how to find the right provider, learn how to tap into where you want to birth, and really tune into that, this course is going to help you walk through that path. Whether or not you choose a Cesarean, you choose a VBAC, you choose an induction, you choose home birth, hospital birth, midwife, OB, unmedicated, medicated, whatever it may be, we are here to support you but it is so important to us that you find that information that you are filled with the evidence-based information ready to take on the birth and have the birth experience. 

So if you want to learn more about all of these resources, check the show notes. They are all going to be listed. Go to thevbaclink.com and click around you guys. You’re going to get lost in there because there is a lot. There is a lot of incredible information. But yeah. Julie, anything you want to add before we let the listeners go? 

Julie: I do. I do have something we want to add. Listen. Me and Meagan want to do a birth together, a VBAC. Maybe at home, maybe at a hospital but if you are in Utah, Salt Lake or Utah County, Weber, Davis, Tooele, Park City, and any of those areas, reach out because we have a special bundle discount that we will give to you if you hire Meagan as your doula and me as your birth photographer. 

Meagan: Yes. We’ve done a birth together as doulas switching up. We’ve never done a birth as a birth photographer and a doula. Julie really wants us to work together. 

Julie: I do. We will be a package deal. We will take some money off of our services for you so that we can have that experience and then you get both of us at your birth which is a total win. 

Meagan: That would be really fun. It would be really, really fun. Okay, listeners, we love you. We love you so much. Happy Cesarean Awareness Month. It’s April. We’re going to be posting those stats and all of the things this month so stay tuned. If you have not followed us on Instagram or Facebook, check us out at @thevbaclink. You can find us anywhere and we are so grateful that you are here. Hopefully, after today’s episode, you’re not unfollowing us on all of this. We love you. We just have to say that. 

Julie: And you can follow me @juliefrancombirth.

Meagan: Yes. You can follow Julie at @juliefrancombirth.

Julie: Bye! 

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

“It’s a dream. I am so thankful and just hope I can return the favor to the community because you all have been such a gift in my life. If I can give anything back, I hope that my story helps people.”

Lindsey’s episode has SO much to offer! From listening to over 200 VBAC Link birth stories and extensive evidence-based research, and now fresh off of her own HBAC, Lindsey shares her list of helpful VBAC tips. 

As an active duty Air Force servicemember, Lindsey also shares tips on finding birth support during a military PCS as well as getting a referral to birth outside of the hospital under military insurance. 

Finally, Lindsey shares her husband’s journey with paternal postpartum anxiety and an update on how his anxiety levels are now– three months after her HBAC.

Lindsey’s stories are just as impressive as she is and we are so honored to have her on the podcast today! 

Additional Links

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

The VBAC Link Facebook Community

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Meagan: Hello, you guys. Welcome to The VBAC Link Podcast. We have a story coming to you today from Maryland. We have a mama. Her name is Lindsey and she married her high school sweetheart which I think is so fun. So fun. They have two boys, right?

Lindsey: Yes. 

Meagan: Pretty fresh postpartum. Three months out. 

Lindsey: Pretty fresh. 

Meagan: Pretty cool. Your husband is a stay-at-home dad and you are on active duty Air Force and work as a dentist. How? You are a powerhouse. That is awesome. 

Lindsey: Thank you. 

Meagan: You are doing a residency and you have lived all over the country and seen so many things and you’ve had a VBAC. 

Lindsey: I can’t wait to share. 

Meagan: Yes, I can’t wait to get into this story. You guys, one of the things we are also going to be talking about today is something that I actually don’t know if we’ve ever talked about on the podcast but it is something that I feel like I saw in my husband when I was going to VBAC for the first time with my second birth. 

I saw what happened and he shut out, so we want to talk about paternal postpartum anxiety a little bit today because it’s something that we don’t focus on highly. We are focused on the mom giving birth and the experience that they have had, but it’s so important not to forget about our significant others or our birth partners, or anybody there that was in the space and witnessed birth. I’m excited to be talking in just a minute with Lindsey about paternal postpartum. 

So if you have a significant other that may have had a traumatic experience, definitely listen up. It’s going to be great and then also sometimes, I think just hearing these stories and hearing maybe some of the characteristics and things that are happening, it might help you know. I didn’t know until he had said things when I was preparing for my vaginal birth after two Cesareans, he was saying things and I was like, “Okay. You are not okay completely. That triggered you and let’s talk about it.” So I’m really, really excited. 

Of course, though, we have a review of the week and this is a long one. I would always make Julie read the long reviews because I swear I can’t read and hear myself at the same time. I just get mixed up so we’ll see how this goes.

Lindsey: You’ve got this. 

Meagan: This is from likap8 so thank you. It says, “I did it. I have my VBAC.” It says, “Hello, ladies. I was waiting to write this review since I was pregnant and tell you thank you very much from the bottom of my heart. I knew I was going to achieve a VBAC thanks to the knowledge you provide. When I was 12 weeks pregnant, my doula team recommended it to me and I immediately felt really empowered by listening to every single story. I finally had something real from real women telling me that VBACs are possible, that I just needed to educate myself and do everything in my hands to make it happen, and that’s what I did.”

“I hired a doula team. I went to the chiropractor. I did Spinning Babies. I followed doulas on Instagram that tell you what exercise you must do to prepare for labor. I did Hypnobirthing. I submerged myself in everything about natural birth and I trained my body and my mind for this big day. I had my VBAC on March 15, 2022” which is almost a year ago. Actually when this comes out, it will be over a year ago. It says, “and it was the most healing experience. I did it thanks to you all and people like you to help women like me have our dream birth.”

Wow. That was incredible. Such an amazing review. Thank you so much. We are always smiling when we see these reviews come in on Apple Podcasts or Google. Sometimes like I’ve said in the past, we’ll just get an email that says, “Hey, I just want to quickly write a review.” So if you have a review for us, please shoot it over. We would love to read it on the next podcast. 

Meagan: Okay, Lindsey. Are you ready? 

Lindsey: I’m ready. I’m excited. 

Meagan: I’m so ready. Thank you so much. I’d absolutely love to turn the time over to you and share all your wealth of knowledge and your experience that these listeners are definitely going to benefit from.

Lindsey: Thank you so much for having me. This is a moment that I daydreamed so many times when I was walking with my son, well, when I was pregnant with him and when I drove. At one point, I was driving to a provider in Virginia and I would listen to it on the drive. I was like, “Maybe one day I can be on the show.” 

Meagan: And here you are. Three months postpartum. 

Lindsey: Oh my gosh. It’s a dream. I am so thankful and just hope I can return the favor to the community because like your review said, you all have been such a gift in my life. So if I can give anything back, I hope that my story helps people. 

Meagan: Awesome. 

Lindsey: Yeah. So I first learned about The VBAC Link actually right after I had my Cesarean. It was a week after my Cesarean. I searched #vbac on Instagram and you guys popped up. I started following it and tucked it in the back of my mind because I had heard about a VBAC and I knew that I wanted to try for that. I didn’t start listening to the podcasts until I was 24 weeks pregnant. My family and I had just done another military move. We moved from Kansas to Maryland and I was pretty overwhelmed by starting over again. 

The moves have been pretty good, but when you start adding kids to the mix, it makes it a little harder. I felt like I didn’t have a community and I was starting this intense training program and feeling kind of lonely. I felt like I didn’t have the time or mental capacity to learn everything I should learn to have a good VBAC, so the podcast was such a gift because it packaged it into a reasonable amount of time that I could do when I was multitasking and then provide evidence-based information and hear a powerful story. It was just everything that I needed, so I learned so much from you all. I’m so thankful. 

My Cesarean story, to start out, I wanted an unmedicated birth with my first son. We hired a doula. We found the only midwife in the town where we were living in Kansas who covered our military insurance. The base I was at didn’t have OB care so we got an automatic referral. I kept a really active pregnancy. I even did cardio kickboxing up until the day before my water broke. 

Meagan: Cool. That’s awesome. 

Lindsey: I was like, “Yeah, I’ve got this.” 

But a couple of things looking back on my pregnancy, I did have a brand new midwife. She said I would probably be the first birth that she attended which is fine. 

Meagan: Yeah, you’ve got to start somewhere. You’ve got to start somewhere. 

Lindsey: Yeah, but the way that it worked in the city where I was living in Kansas, she was not on her own. She was actually part of an OB practice. She couldn’t be on her own so that practice, I found out later, had the highest Cesarean rate in town. I didn’t know that at the time. She also gave me the recommendation to start using primrose oil vaginally at 38 weeks and I didn’t know that that was an induction method. I found that out on your podcast. She said that it would prevent tearing so I was like, “Oh.” I found out things later. Things I didn’t ask about. I didn’t know to ask about them. 

My water started leaking at 40 weeks and 1 day. I woke up at 3:00 AM. It was just a trickle and mild contractions. I went back to bed and called the midwife on call at 6:00 AM. She was like, “Well, you have an appointment today at 8:00 so you can wait for that.” At 8:00, she checked and my waters had ruptured. She left the room to talk to the OB and then when she came back, she was like, “You know, let’s have you eat some breakfast and then have you come start Pitocin.” 

The hospital had a birthing center across the street from the hospital so you weren’t actually at the hospital but they were prepared if something went south. You could have a Cesarean there too, but not really meant for it. So then I arrived to the birthing center, or a birthing suite, and they didn’t have a cordless monitor so they put me on a monitor that had the cord. I remember being really disappointed because I was like, “I want to walk around,” but it was really limited with that. 

They started Pitocin and really an hour later, I was having a hard time handling them. The contractions were really hard and really fast. We called my doula and she came. I remember my midwife saying, “Don’t scream.” I said, “Okay, well I don’t know what to do. I’m trying not to scream.” I labored with Pitocin for seven hours and got to 6. My midwife then had me stop Pitocin and labor on my own for three hours. I remember sitting in the bath and not wanting to get out. I was like, “I don’t want to get out of this bath.” I wasn’t really feeling any contractions at this time. I did have the labor shakes and I remember asking why. No one really answered me why I was having the shakes. 

I found out on your show later, one episode, and I was like, “Oh, that’s normal. I didn’t know that it was normal.” 

Meagan: So was the water helping you contraction-wise? You weren’t really feeling them or did it just stop?

Lindsey: Unfortunately, she checked me and I was still at a 6 three hours later. 

Meagan: So when they turned Pitocin off, your body wasn’t quite in that active phase on its own. 

Lindsey: Okay. 

Meagan: Okay. That’s when I was like, “Hmm.”

Lindsey: I know. She put me back on Pitocin and I said, “If you’re going to do that, you’re going to have to give me an epidural,” because my body had just calmed down from not having it for three hours. The epidural worked so well. I was numb all the way up my chest. 

Meagan: Oh wow. 

Lindsey: I know. I remember asking, “Can we turn this down?” They never turned it down because it never felt less than that. Then seven or eight hours later was when I made it to a 10 and I had got some rest. They said, “Okay, time to push.” Again, I couldn’t feel anything. They showed me how to do it. They said, “You’re doing it.” After two hours of pushing, my midwife went in and manually tried to turn my son because she said that he was in a weird position. When she did, his heart rate deceled. 

She told my husband, “Go pull the cord.” He pulled the cord. Eight people flooded in the room and then I heard, “Turn her on my side,” then I was like, “Oh.” So I turned myself on my side and my midwife apologized actually to me afterward. She was like, “I didn’t mean for you to turn you on your side,” but I was just like, I don’t know if it’s because I’m in the military and I heard something so I was like, “I’ve got to do it.” But we laughed about it. It was something to laugh about. 

After another hour of pushing, so three hours total, she asked the hospitalist who was working to come in and the hospitalist did a pelvic evaluation. She determined she couldn’t get forceps around my son. He was asynclitic and at that point, she said that she recommended a Cesarean. I learned that it’s an unplanned Cesarean, not an emergency Cesarean, but still, it felt emergent and it felt unplanned. It felt very unplanned. 

Meagan: Yeah. That’s one of the hardest things for me as a doula, as a mom who has had them, to decipher what is emergent because they treat it as it is an emergency and we are feeling that feeling so we think that we had these emergent situations. 

Lindsey: Yes. You definitely feel it. 

Meagan: I’m not saying there aren’t. There are definite emergent situations, but sometimes, we label them as emergencies and they’re not but the way that everybody is making it seem feels that way. 

Lindsey: Yes, and the tension was definitely in the room. I mean, even when I was in labor and pushing. 

Meagan: Was he doing okay? I know he had the decels a little bit, but was he doing okay now? 

Lindsey: Yeah. Oh yeah. He was stable at that point when they brought me back which was good. So he had had the decels. 

Then I consented and thirty minutes later, they pulled my son out. He was crying and I cried and felt that instant love that you feel for your baby like you’d do anything for them and it was very special, but I definitely felt really excited and then also really robbed of the birth that I wanted at the same time so it was kind of weird to feel both things at once. 

Meagan: But that’s okay. That’s okay. 

Lindsey: It is okay. What was encouraging though was like, “Man, I labored for nothing.” 20-something hours of labor, but all of those hormones, the midwife did say, “You know all of the hormones you had released are really good for the baby too,” so I was like, “Okay if it worked for something.” 

So then about 4-5 hours after my son was born, they left us alone for a little bit. They still came and checked on us. I woke up and my husband was pacing the room. I asked him, “What’s going on?” He said that he was shaking. I could see that he was shaking and his heart rate was racing. He was really emotional. I told him, “I think you’re having a panic attack.” We were married for almost ten years before we had kids, then we were together for five years before that so we’d been together for a long time and I’d never seen him go through anything like that before. 

I was like, “Oh my gosh, just come,” and I had him lay in the hospital bed with me until he stopped shaking. Yeah, so that was our experience at the hospital, and then we got home and I remember we ordered pizza and he couldn’t eat it at home after the hospital. He couldn’t eat anything for a few days after we were home. He barely was eating anything. He couldn’t be in the same room with our son when he was crying. He felt like another panic attack would come on, then couldn’t be in the room when we were sleeping at night. 

I remember feeling so concerned that he would never be the same again. We would never want any more children. He is my best friend, so it was like, “Oh my gosh. Who do I talk to about this? What do we do?” We actually ended up, he talked to one of the pastors at our church and worked through that. We were like, “Okay. This is a hard moment. We’re working through it.” Evenings were the worst at the time. When the sun started to go down, that’s when we would try to connect together and talk about what he was feeling and going through. We would pray and we would watch Gilmore Girls which is our favorite show. 

It seemed like things were slowly getting better, but then five months later, my husband was watching our son and I had already gone back to work after 12 weeks and then he was also watching our friend’s baby who is a little bit younger than our son and the baby started crying and he had a panic attack. 

He called me and I was working across the street. Our base was across the street from where our friends lived. Thankfully that day, a skunk had gotten into the ventilation system at work. 

Meagan: Oh gross. 

Lindsey: We were all being evacuated at that moment. They called it a natural disaster. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh, that’s a natural disaster. That is. 

Lindsey: It was $80,000 worth of work to fix it in the end. It was nuts. I was literally leaving my desk at that moment to go home. I said, “I’ll be right there.” So I was there and had him go walk it off. I had heard of a therapy group in town from a friend and got the information. He started therapy pretty soon after. I think it was in that week. He ended up going for the rest of the time we were in Kansas which was I guess a year and a half that he went. 

It made a huge difference, a huge huge difference. I am really thankful for that. 

Meagan: Did he feel that the birth itself was what brought everything on? Was that a trigger?

Lindsey: Great question. That’s what we’re thinking is that it was all of the heightened emotions from me being in labor and that not going well, then all of a sudden we were in a Cesarean. The pulling of the cord was something that really stood out in his mind, like, “Oh my gosh. This is a serious thing.” Just that fight or flight reflex was on for that whole time. 

Meagan: He was the one that pulled the cord, right? He was the one that was told to go pull the cord. 

Lindsey: He was the one that pulled the cord, exactly. 

Meagan: Which if you think about it, when someone tells you to go pull the cord when you know that’s an emergent, really scary, someone-could-be-dying cord, you can imagine where his mind went. 

Lindsey: Exactly, exactly. He brings up this story when they brought me in for the Cesarean, they had me on the– I don’t really remember because they had given me medicine at that point, but he said that I was on a table naked. No curtains were up. They were rubbing iodine on me or something and he was like, “Oh my gosh. Are they not going to put a curtain up? I’m just going to see my wife being sliced open?” They had my arms tied down. 

Meagan: Scary. 

Lindsey: Scary, yeah. He’s not a medical person at all. I’m a dentist and he doesn’t do the blood thing. He said, “No, that’s not for me.” I’m going to bounce back and forth between what he went through and then jump back into the story too. 

I had a lot of questions about my Cesarean mainly about how did I go from wanting an unmedicated birth to having a Cesarean? I remember asking my midwife at my six-week postpartum because I had done some reading on Evidence Based Birth, the website of how you can wait after PROM so many hours before you start Pitocin. I asked her, “Why did we start so quickly?” It was six hours after I had PROM that we started Pitocin. 

She said in a hushed voice– no one was in the room with us, but she kept her voice really low. She said, “Oh, it was the OBs that I’m working under.” I was like, “Oh, okay.” I don’t know. I was disappointed that I had a Cesarean, but in the state of weakness, it really taught me to rely on faith and it also set me on a path to really deep-dive into the world of birth education. I’m no expert by any means, but I learned so much compared to where I was at the first time. 

Flashing forward to January 2022, we were celebrating my son’s first birthday and I found out I was pregnant. I was nervous and excited. We were going to be getting orders from Kansas to Maryland, so we will flash forward to Maryland. We moved when I was 24 weeks pregnant. My doula, Lauren, came as a recommendation from a friend in the area who lives in Virginia. Lauren, the doula, suggested a practice that was VBAC-friendly. 

At this point, I am working at a military installation, so they expected me to give birth there, but long story short, I was able to get a referral, so if anyone is on active duty listening to this, hang in there. It’s hard. Sometimes you can’t get a referral. But I was able to get one thankfully and the practice in Virginia was an hour away so I would drive to the appointments. They were nice, but I didn’t see anyone consistently. I did move later on in my pregnancy, so it was hard to see every person because there were so many people that worked there. 

I did have one experience before I decided to ultimately change to home birth. When I was 30 weeks pregnant, I was feeling menstrual-like cramps and it really concerned me because I know that could be a sign of labor contractions. They didn’t go away, so I called. It was a Saturday. I called the OB on call and she said, “Well, why don’t you ahead and come to the hospital? I’m working here. We’ll put you on some monitors and check.” 

So I drove and I remember driving by myself and again, feeling really lonely because I was there by myself. My husband was with our son. It was late in the evening. His bedtime would have been soon. I called my doula and she offered to come with me because she’s awesome, but I was like, “No, it’s okay. I’ll just call and check up.” When I got to the hospital, I got checked in. I was crying and the nurse was like, “Oh my gosh, what’s going on?” She was really sweet. 

But the OB popped her head in, looked, and she said something quickly, and walked away. Then I never saw her again. She had the midwife come in and talk to me. The midwife said, “Everything looks good. No contractions. You’re probably dehydrated. Let’s get you some fluids.” She asked to do a cervical check. We did a cervical check. I was at a 1, but she said that most women who have either given vaginal birth or have dilated to a 10 walk around at a 1 at any time. I was like, “Okay.”

Meagan: Or more. 1 or more. 

Lindsey: I’m sure. I’m sure. She walked away and went to talk to the OB. She came back and said, “Okay, so OB would like you to start some steroids for the baby in case you go into labor.” I was like, “Wait, you just said that I’m fine.” 

Meagan: I’m not in labor, yeah. 

Lindsey: Right. I felt really conflicted. I wanted the best for my child. I was confused because I didn’t have any other signs of being in labor. There was a woman who was– it was the triage room so it’s just curtains. I heard a woman who was the same gestational age as me and she was at a 5 and in labor, so they were like, “Okay, we’re going to do this intervention and this intervention.” I thought in my mind, “That makes sense. This woman is in labor. I am not.” I felt really disappointed that the OB didn’t come and look me in the eye or talk to me, put her hand on my shoulder, find out that, “Hey, you just moved to a new area. You’re stressed out. Stress could make this happen,” which I found out later. 

So I ultimately ended up declining and had a very healthy pregnancy. It was just that one time that I had that happen for about a week and everything was okay. He actually came a week past my due date, or eight days past my due date so no worries about being early. 

That’s something and I’ll touch on this later too, as a provider, it’s so important to connect with your patient and in my specialty that I’m getting into, we talk about, “Listen to your patients. They’ll tell you what’s going on.” It’s not that we have to stand over them and make a clinical decision, it’s like, “Look at them. Hear what they have to say. They will tell you what the problem is even if they don’t know what it is. Their story will tell you.” So it’s so important that they do that. Find a provider that’s willing to listen. 

So then at 35 weeks, I was actually listening to an episode of The VBAC Link on my lunch break and I texted my doula. I said, “You know, if I have a third child while we’re living here, I really think I’ll do a home birth.” She said to me, “It’s never too late” –I wrote it down– “to follow your gut and find the perfect birth team. I was like, “That’s nice to say that but that is way too stressful to try to figure out a home birth at 35 weeks pregnant, get a new referral from the military,” and I said, “I’ll look into it,” but it seemed really overwhelming. She was really encouraging. 

Meagan: Very daunting. 

Lindsey: Very daunting. She said that she would support me either way, but she did send me the names of a few midwives in the area. I ended up calling three and one had openings around my due date. I felt really connected to her right away. She put my mind at ease and she had worked with a lot of military families so she knew about my insurance. She actually has delivered over 2000 babies at this point, so tons of experience which was really nice to have.

Meagan: Kind of the opposite end of things. 

Lindsey: The opposite end of things, yeah. We told her we would get back to her. I went home and presented it to Zach because I did all of this in one day. I just ended up having an extended lunch break and called then went back to my residency, then called more. I told my husband about it and he was like, “What?” At that time, we were doing a birth education class with our doula, so we were watching some of the videos that she sent us then we watched a video of the hospital room. He couldn’t finish the video of the hospital room. 

I was like, “Babe if you can’t finish the video of the hospital room, how do you think it’s going to go if we get in there?” So we thought about it that day and prayed about it, then the next morning, he was like, “Yeah. Let’s do it.” I was like, “Okay. Now I need to think a little bit more,” so I took the rest of the week to think about it. We ultimately decided to do it. 

I remember my first prenatal appointment with her was a few days after that and she spent over an hour with me. I kept looking at the time and I was like, “She’s got to go. She’s got other patients and I feel guilty.” It was weird. I felt this guilt of, “I’m taking up too much time from her.

Then I could tell by her demeanor though, she was in no rush to leave at all. Even when she walked out the door, she was just like, “Okay, yeah.”

So with that being said, her appointments were kind of a time range like, “I’ll be there around 2:00.” Sometimes it was later. Sometimes it was a little bit earlier so we had flexibility with our prenatal appointments. They were all at our home. 

Meagan: Which is awesome. 

Lindsey: Yeah, it was so nice. My HBAC story, at 8:00 PM, I had a few painful contractions the night before my son was born. I texted my doula and she recommended doing the Miles Circuit. Then I texted my midwife and she recommended I have a glass of wine or some Benadryl and go to sleep. I didn’t because, at the time, I was like, “Alcohol interrupts your sleep cycle. I don’t know. Maybe I shouldn’t.” 

But I probably should have done some Benadryl or something because after I gave birth, I was talking to her about it and she said, because I had these irregular– maybe someone will connect with this– but I had these irregular contractions all night and I was so tired. She said, “Having some Benadryl probably would have helped you sleep and stopped the irregular contractions. I’m like, “Okay. The next time that happens, I will take Benadryl.” 

But I go into the shower an hour later and that really helped to labor in the shower, just the hot water hitting my back. I was on my hands and knees and I really wanted to let my husband sleep because, in the back of my mind, I was thinking of what happened our first time. I just didn’t want that to happen again to him and to us. 

But I didn’t feel like, “Oh, I just have to do this because I have to be strong for the two of us.” It felt like, “Okay, we’re a team. I’m able to do it myself right now and then at some point, I’ll need him to tap in, but I can do it now.” As much as you enjoy labor, I was like, “Okay, I can do this on my own,” so it was kind of a good time to just be with myself and my baby and think about what was ahead. 

Zach did bring me a birth ball around 10:00 PM and I used that. At 11:00 PM, I tried to get some sleep. I couldn’t get comfortable. I took a nap in between contractions, but they kept waking me up. Then until basically 4:00 AM, they were 5-20 minutes apart so I would try to sleep on the floor but every time a contraction hit, I had to move and get up on my hands and knees. I felt like I just couldn’t stay still during the contraction. 

At 4:00 AM, I was like, “Okay, I need Zach. I need some help.” He worked with me from 4:00-5:00 and did hip squeezes. He was super sweet and encouraging. Then we called my doula at 5:00 and she arrived around 5:30. She was like, “Okay, where are you feeling it?” I was pointing to my back and she said, “Let’s get this baby off of your back.” We did some Spinning Babies and this really helped the back labor. I mean, it was still labor, but it was all in the front at that point which was really helpful. 

The contractions were more regular, still pretty far apart like 10 minutes apart. She said, “All right, you’re at a good place.” This was a little before 8:00. She said, “I’m actually feeling really sick by the way.” I was like, “Oh.” She said, ”I called my backup doula just in case, but I just want you to know where I’m at.” I was like, “Oh no, Lauren.” She’s like, “Nope, not about me. Don’t worry about me.” I was like, “Okay.” But at 8:00 AM, she left, and then within half an hour, it was all in my back and I was like, “Oh my gosh.” I wanted to call her back right away but I also knew, “She is sick. I don’t know.” We waited a couple of hours and it actually ended up being a really sweet time for my husband and me because we talked and we prayed and we cried. We just talked about how different our life would be. 

I mean, we had done that too before our second son was born, but it felt like that was such a special time to talk it out. I’m thankful for that. 10:30, I did call my doula back and she said was going to tough it out and come over, then the backup doula would be coming, but then she called me right back and said, “Lindsey, I have a fever. I’m so sorry.” I was like, “Oh no.” I didn’t want to expose myself to a fever and the baby, so she took care of all of that. The backup doula was going to be coming at 12:30 but I was like, “Oh gosh. I have to make it until 12:30.”

I found out two weeks before I was giving birth that my pastor’s wife is training to be a doula so I invited her to come. I don’t know her very well and I especially didn’t know her very well at the time, but I told her, “We’re going to know each other very well after this.” So we called her to come and it was nice because she is not a birth worker, but it was really beautiful to have her there and she was helping my husband at a few different points. Just watching her cry when the baby was born and I actually heard– jumping ahead here– but I actually heard my midwife telling her, “Okay, this,” and giving her tips. 

Meagan: Tips and stuff? 

Lindsey: Tips and stuff, yeah. That might bother some people, but maybe because I’ve been in school for so long myself, but I liked hearing it too so it ended up being a really beautiful thing. She was praying for us while everything was going on. The whole house was so peaceful. The backup doula ended up coming at 11:30. She came a little bit earlier at 11:30, then I had the pastor’s wife, and then when my midwife came, I felt so surrounded by loving, confident women and felt very safe. That’s something that I really wanted to feel was just like I knew everyone there. I felt really safe. That’s what I felt. 

At this point, I was back in the shower when the doula arrived. Ashley is her name and I had never met her before. I turned off the shower and I was like, “Thank you for being here,” naked and sobbing. I hugged her. She said, “Okay, let’s do some Spinning Babies.” We did a few things and then at 12, it wasn’t even that long later, I was like, “I’ve got to go back to the shower.” So I was back to the shower and things continued to build up.

I get out. They called the midwife and Ashley had thought of a few things we could do with Spinning Babies. She and the midwife were immediately on the same page. The midwife was on her way. They were like, “Let’s have Lindsey do the side-lying release,” and I was like, “Nothing in me wants to get on the side of the bed.” I looked at her and I said, “I’m done. I’ve got to go to the hospital. I need meds. I tried. I can’t do it.” She was very, very kind and acknowledged what I had to say and said, “Let’s just try this.”

Meagan: Yeah. It’s such a hard thing as a doula because you’re like, “I know you want this and you’re saying this. I don’t want to ignore you and not take you seriously, to then later have you not feel heard or respected…”

Lindsey: I can only imagine. 

Meagan: But you can see a different space than they can see. Yeah. It’s a hard space to be in. 

Lindsey: Right, especially when you met them an hour ago. 

Meagan: Yes. Oh, I can’t even imagine, yeah. 

Lindsey: Yeah, yeah. No, exactly. I appreciated that she was validating me, but I was like, “No. I’ve got to go.” But then I was pacing the house in my diaper naked and Zach said I was walking around like a zombie. The little amount in me that could think reasonably was like, “Okay, if I have to go to the hospital then I have to get checked in, and then if I get checked in, then I have to wait for an epidural from the anesthesiologist, then I have to be in the car to get to the hospital. That’s going to take so long. Okay. Let’s just try it.” So I tried it through three contractions, then she had me flip over to the other side. 

As soon as I flipped over to the other side, my water exploded. I was wearing those diapers and it felt like the water filled up like a water balloon in my diaper and then burst to the floor. I was like, “Oh my gosh.” I looked down at the water and it was green. I stood up and I was like, “Ashley!” I was hysterical. I was like, “It’s not clear. It’s not clear.” She was like, “I’ve been to a lot of births. It’s something that happens. We’ll talk to your midwife and see what she has to say.” It really ramped up. I went back to the shower. I remember I ran to the shower and turned it on. When I got in, it was cold, but the water warmed up. 

Meagan: Yeah, but shocking. 

Lindsey: Shocking, a cold shower, yeah. I was gasping. Then the water warmed up and I started screaming. She really was helping me through the contractions and was like, “Keep it low,” and so sweet in how she did it. I was just following her voice. So really, my husband at this point, when the doula was there, he was like, “I’m going to let her help my wife.” I didn’t feel like, “Where is my husband?” I felt like, “Okay, this is good. I’m glad that Ashley is helping me.” Actually, I found out later that he went and cleaned up my water. He was like, “I have something to do,” and he cleaned it up. 

She reminded me, I failed to mention that when I did want to go the hospital, she reminded me, “When you get to this point, I know you’ve listened to a lot of birth education and listened to a lot of podcasts,” you know that this means that you are really close. It just didn’t feel real. I was like, “Yeah, but they were close. I don’t think that I’m close.”

Meagan: It’s not possible that I’m the same. 

Lindsey: I just felt like it was not possible, no. I did find this out later too because Jennifer, my midwife, wasn’t worried about the water. She said, “The color of the water, when it’s bright green, usually means that a baby is in distress, but when it’s brown and murky, it just means that the baby is old and has been in there for a while.” Again, he was eight days past his due date because I asked her later, “Why weren’t you concerned about it?” So she said that it was fine. That was good to know. 

Meagan: Yeah, very good to know. 

Lindsey: Yeah, so then I get in the shower. I had the mucus plug come out, the bloody show, and then things were ramping up. The midwife gets here and they want me to get out. I started to make a grunting noise. I was like, “Oh my gosh. Did I actually just do that?” Ashley said, “Are you feeling pushy?” I said, “I don’t know. I think so, maybe.” Then the midwife arrived and she was checking the water. She said, “The water is not warm enough,” because I had used all of the hot water. They were filling up the tub and the water was gone, so my husband was boiling water in the kitchen because there’s a certain threshold for the temperature that it has to be. 

I still didn’t believe even though I was making grunting noises that I was going to give birth. I still thought, “I’m going to have to go to the hospital.” They tried to get me to sit on the toilet, and I can’t. I was like, “No.” I go to sit down and then I would get back up. I know the toilet is a dilation station and I was like, “Oh, I just can’t do it.” When she arrived, my midwife put her hand on my lower back. She never did a cervical check. She put her hand on my lower back. She said to my husband, I found out later, that I was probably a 7 or 8 when she got there. I asked her how she knew that and she said she would feel the tailbone push out and then the back of my buttcrack is a darker color. I was like, “Oh, interesting.” 

I’m in the tub and they are adding hot water. I am pushing and they don’t have to coach me. I’m doing it. They’re encouraging m– my doula and my midwife– but my body just knew how to do it which was so cool. I did start to feel the ring of fire which actually to me didn’t feel that bad because the whole labor felt really bad. 

Meagan: It didn’t to me either. It just felt like I had a whole ton of pressure. I just remember pressure. I don’t remember the full, full ring of fire. 

Lindsey: No. Oh wait, I did forget one thing. I didn’t want to forget this. I didn’t think I could do it when I started to get to almost pushing. I think I must have said something. I should ask my husband. I must have said something because my midwife gave me a pep talk and she said, “Okay. Would it help you if you felt your baby’s head, like a little bit of biofeedback?” As a dentist, we talk to patients about different things like biofeedback so I was like, “Yeah, that connects with me.” I was like, “I don’t know how to do it.” She said, “Reach down, feel, and then you’ll feel something firm and squishy. It won’t feel like you.” I was like, “Okay.” Then I did. I was like, “Oh my gosh. He’s there.” That was definitely a big motivator for me. 

I didn’t do that with my first son. They had offered and I was like, “Oh gosh, no. I don’t want to,” but I think that it was very helpful. There is a mental hurdle to giving birth. I think VBAC moms, I don’t want to say more of a hurdle, but I think we do. 

Meagan: Sometimes we have extra stuff. We just do. We just do. 

Lindsey: Yeah, so setting yourself up for success if it is touching your baby’s head. That was my point when I had to have the Cesarean was when I was pushing, so that pushed me through the threshold. It was mental at that point. The baby was coming. I just had to work with my body to do it. My husband has a funny memory of me when I was in the birth pool. I was holding both sides because there were the sides of the tub. I literally am roaring and I felt like I was roaring. I was like, “Come on.” My son’s name is Finn. I was like, “Come on, Finn. Let’s get this over with,” and just roaring him out. 

My doula was standing in front of me. He was like, “You were just yelling in her face.” It took me an hour to push which sounds like a long time but didn’t feel like a long time at all. I held him and I cried. Zach was crying. The picture that I sent is really cool because you can see my husband tearing up in it. The pastor’s wife cried. Ashley was crying. Except for our midwife, she was cracking jokes the whole time not in a disrespectful way, but she kept the mood really light. I didn’t notice because I was in labor land, but my husband said that it was really nice. It kept him calm because she was so chill.

She said to me later actually when I got in bed that my son didn’t cry right away but she checked. Actually, my doula recorded it so I could hear her. She checked the pulse and the cord. She wasn’t concerned that the baby didn’t cry right away because she felt that the pulse was really good. In the video, she was like, “He’s just getting ready to take his first breath,” really calm. She said to me later that she did do a little bit of suctioning which I was like, “No, that’s fine. I didn’t have a problem with that.” I say that because everything was so considerate. For all of the questions that were asked or what she did, she wanted to let me know. I could have never known that she did suctioning ever but she wanted me to know. I just thought that was really cool.

She has me quickly get out of bed. I didn’t think it was quick, but we talked in our debrief later that it was quick because she saw that I was bleeding but no placenta came out, so she wanted to figure out where it was coming from. She had a really cool way of testing or trying to triage me without me knowing. At one point, I did pick up on it because she asked, “Are you feeling any pain in your arm?” Then I was like, “Oh, she’s checking my heart. I know that from being a dentist?” She would just ask low-key questions but was trying to make sure everything was all right. 

Meagan: Without making you feel like it. 

Lindsey: Panic. She was like, “Okay, we’re going to check your blood pressure.” Blood pressure was 100/40 so she said, “All right, Lindsey, let’s start you with some IVs,” I was like, “I don’t care. Do anything. I have my baby on my chest. Do whatever you want.” She said, “You have some bleeding. We’re going to try to see where it’s coming from and get the placenta out.” She had me try to push and I was like, “I feel like I can’t. I have no urge to push.” She said, “All right. I can try,” so she tried to pull it but then the cord was feeling like it was going to separate so she said, “Okay, I’m not going to do that.” 

Sorry, when they started the IV, she was like, “I would like to give you a shot of PItocin.” I was like, “Okay, yeah. Go for it.” So she gave me a shot of Pitocin in my leg. It turns out that she was concerned about the bleeding. She was like, “I’ve got to figure out where this is coming from.” At that point, she had tried to pull it out. She wasn’t able to so she said, “Okay, Lindsey. I need you to push the placenta out.” I was like, “Okay.” So I pushed it out and she said, “I’m sorry. I have to be really mean and press on your abdomen,” so she really got on there to make sure that I wasn’t hemorrhaging or anything. 

The birth assistant was stuck in traffic so she had just arrived at that point. She had her check too and she did find a small tear, a first-degree tear. Oh, sorry. I wasn’t going to do this but I’m going to do this one time. When I did feel that ring of fire, she said at that point, “Okay. Put your hand down there and where you are feeling burning, move the tissue out of the way,” so I think that helped. 

She told me in a prenatal visit that she has women do that because she can try to feel or try to guess where they might tear, but when moms do it, it usually is really successful because they can feel it. I thought that would be really interesting. I did have that first-degree tear, but she said, “You probably don’t need a stitch, but I’d like to go ahead and do it because you have blood.” I said, “Yeah, fine.” So we did it. It was a venous tear so that’s why it ended up bleeding more. The bleeding stopped. We weighed the baby and they did the tuck-in service. 

My in-laws were in town. They actually are the best and they were supposed to fly back to California that day because they came two weeks early. They came a week before my due date and stayed a week past because we thought the baby would be born then but he wasn’t. They were flying out that day but they canceled their flight and stayed because I had gone into labor the night before they left so they were with our one-and-a-half-year-old. They ended up saying, “We’re just going to get a hotel room and you guys hang out,” which was nice to have that time with just Zach and I and our new little baby boy. 

After my HBAC, we were sitting on the bed with our second son and just so thankful. I asked my husband how he was feeling because I was curious about this experience. Would it be different than the hospital? He said that he was feeling great. He felt like in the hospital, he couldn’t really do much. The doula didn’t take over but he would try to support me in labor, but then he was like, “Well, what else do I do?” He felt like being at home, he put water in the tub. He cleaned up my water. At one point, he even said, “I put the dishes away.” 

That night in bed, he did have a little bit of shaking, but I think his sympathetic nervous system was so ramped up. That happens. The specialty I’m getting into is pain– head and neck pain. Oral-facial pain is what it’s called. We have patients with chronic pain, people who have undergone post-traumatic stress and TBI, or I should say have post-traumatic stress disorder or TBI and their sympathetic nervous system is ramped up. 

It’s designed like a zebra outrunning a lion. You’ll see a zebra shake after it’s done and shake it all out. But a zebra doesn’t keep thinking, “What if that lion would have caught me? What if I would have lost the let?” Zebras just move on. But we as people are the ones that think about, “What if?” So that’s what causes that sympathetic nervous system to keep staying on. 

Anyway, so he had a little bit of the shakes. I was thinking through that and one of the things that we have patients do for chronic pain patients, it can also help with anxiety, and it can also help lower your blood pressure. Feel free to link this and look into it because there is a lot of evidence-based research on it. I’m saying that to all of the listeners too. It’s called diaphragmatic breathing. I highly recommend it just in general for any type of chronic pain. It’s really helpful but there have been studies of people lowering their blood pressure. 

I was like, “All right, honey.” We were in bed. I was like, “We’re going to do some diaphragmatic breathing.” We did some diaphragmatic breathing and it really helped him calm down. What it does is it activates your vagus nerve which is that fight or flight reflex responsible, that nerve that innervates and starts up the fight or flight. It helps activate your parasympathetic nervous system to calm your body down. So that’s what I did and it was awesome. 

Meagan: I love that. 

Lindsey: Yeah. One more thing to go over after this, but to show where we are now, I did go back to work and this is my second week back, so very timely. My husband did a full week by himself with the kids and there was lots of crying because my baby doesn’t take a bottle during the day which is another story and also stressful. We’re working on it. The baby’s been crying a lot and is hungry. I asked him last night, “Okay, I’m on the podcast tomorrow. Let’s give a full update.” He said, “I have not felt any anxiety at all.” I was like, “That is so awesome.”

Meagan: Oh awesome. 

Lindsey: Right after the birth we talked about it, I was like, “Do you feel like you would have had this in the hospital?” He was like, “I don’t know. I don’t know if I would have because I would have had the same smells, same sights.” He and I both feel like the total change of environment was what was best for our family and really helped my success in my HBAC and for him too. I really do think that I would have gotten an epidural 100% if I was in the hospital. I was so close so I just wonder, “Would that have hindered me?” Who knows? You can’t play those games. You never know. 

Meagan: It’s hard to know. It’s hard to know. I believe that if I were in a hospital for the second, and this is not to say anything bad about a hospital birth–

Lindsey: No, no definitely not. 

Meagan: I probably would have had an epidural too and I do believe that I probably would have had a third Cesarean but it’s so hard to know. I’m curious, maybe not. I have no idea. 

Lindsey: Right, yeah. Absolutely. 

Meagan: Oh man. 

Lindsey: I have one last little thing I want to go over. Thank you. So one of the key components I think that was missing from my first birth was education. At almost every prenatal appointment, my midwife would say, “Any questions?” Almost every single time, I didn’t. I guess I trusted her and not that you shouldn’t trust your providers but I didn’t even know what to ask so that’s why I recommend your podcast to first-time moms too because then you know what to ask. 

I did some reading. I definitely did some reading and I did the hospital birth class. I did a class with our doula too, a birth class with our first doula, but I did so much more the second time around. My point is that definitely finding a provider you can trust and you can feel like you can ask those questions or who would maybe even prompt you with what questions to ask is so helpful because being informed as a patient– I strive to build that rapport and trust with my patients every time. I tell them this, “We’re working together as a team and I want you to do your own research and I want to work with you to determine the best plan for you,” because when you feel empowered and informed, you have better outcomes. 

I really felt like birth happened to me the first time around and then the second time, I was actively a part of my birth which was really a powerful thing. 

Meagan: Very, very, very powerful. That’s something I was going to say. Even if it doesn’t go the way you want, you can still be the driver in the driver’s seat. We know that with babies and birth, things go certain ways and everything but you can still be empowered. 

Lindsey: Thank you for saying that. I actually had that thought to say to share that too. Birth is crazy and you never know how it’s going to go or what’s going to happen but you would know, “Okay. I did all of the research beforehand and I can rest in the fact that it’s okay. We made the best decision at the time given the information that we had.” 

Meagan: Absolutely. 

Lindsey: I’m just going to read if it’s okay, a quick list because I am a list person and I listened to all of your VBAC Links. I gathered my own list. Everyone’s list of how to have a VBAC might look different but this is my list. 

Meagan: Yay, I love it. 

Lindsey: I’m a list person for all of you guys out there. I did listen to as many birth stories as possible. If I would have started sooner, I would have listened more, but my number one on Spotify in 2022 was The VBAC Link. I had listened to 206 episodes. I know there were almost all of the 206 episodes at the time. Almost all of them, not quite. I did learn things like the risks and benefits of Pitocin, what the labor shakes were, how having a tight pelvic floor can prevent baby from descending, how important movement is in labor, and coached pushing versus self-directed pushing. 

I learned a lot about breathwork. There’s a really good YouTube video by Bridget Teyler that my doula told me about. 

Meagan: Bridget’s awesome. 

Lindsey: And then your podcast too talked about breathing. The low tones are so important. I didn’t know that the first time around. I did see a chiropractor once a week for the majority of my pregnancy starting really in the second trimester. When we moved here, I couldn’t find a Webster-based chiropractor in my area but I saw a corporate practice called The Joint. The woman there was trained in Webster. She just wasn’t certified because she doesn’t pay an annual fee to get the certification. Something to think about there. 

I did drink the tea, the red raspberry leaf tea, and ate the Medjool dates at 37 weeks. Spinning Babies, I started that three to five days a week. I didn’t do as many intense workouts as I did with my first son. I really did a lot of walking partially because I had so many Braxton Hicks and partially because of hearing that having a tight pelvic floor can prevent the baby from descending.

Hydrotherapy– I did so much of that during labor. I squeezed a comb through every single contraction. The comb was the comb that we brought home from my first birth that they give you at the hospital so it was kind of poetic. By the end, the comb was very destroyed from all of my squeezing. 

I did write down my fears and emotions with the birth. I did boil it down to three that I was feeling. I told my doula and my midwife about them. I was like, “In case I stall in labor, I just want you to know.” I tried to really turn the fear/tension/pain cycle to not give in to the fear through every contraction. I’d turn that into prayer. Every contraction is helping my body to move down my baby and to work with that. I remember, and I would say that Pitocin contractions were worse than actual contractions, but I do remember that I was bracing every one like, “Oh no. Another one is coming.” I’d fight every contraction. It was still hard, but I tried to work with my body instead of pushing them away, then moving every 15 minutes to a new position in labor. 

Meagan: Such a powerful list right there. 

Lindsey: Oh, thank you. Hopefully, if someone is like, “Oh, my VBAC might be tomorrow, maybe they can listen to this episode and get some tips at the end there in the final hour.” 

Meagan: Yes, the final hour. The final countdown. I love it. Thank you so much and huge congrats. 

Lindsey: Thank you. Thank you.

Meagan: Congrats. What a crazy journey to go from moving and finding providers, then changing and even changing doulas in the very end. You had change up until the very end. 

Lindsey: The very end. I didn’t even think about that. That’s true. 

Meagan: Yeah, you really did. Awesome. I’m so happy to hear that everything is going well right now and your husband is going better. That’s really awesome. 

Lindsey: Thank you. It’s really good, really, really good. Thank you so much. I’m just so honored to be here and to see you face to face and just thank you for all that you do. 

Meagan: Thank you. 

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

Due to a velamentous cord insertion and breech presentation, Brenda decided to schedule a Cesarean for her first birth. It was a peaceful, calm, and beautiful experience. 

When she became pregnant with her second baby soon after the first, Brenda knew she would be okay with another Cesarean if necessary, but also intuitively felt that this birth experience would be very different. 

Though she didn’t know exactly what to expect from labor, her body took over and knew exactly what to do…even in the car!

Additional Links

Brenda’s Website

Brenda’s Instagram

Brenda’s Facebook

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

The VBAC Link Facebook Community

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Meagan: Happy Wednesday, everybody. You’re listening to The VBAC Link. This is your host, Meagan, and you guys, we have a great story for you. A really, really great, exciting story. One of those stories that you see go viral. Brenda, you might have gone viral. They go viral, a lot of these stories, and they’re really fun to listen to. I always remember imagining and being like, “That would be cool if that happened to me,” then I’d be like, “What would I do?” I don’t know what I would do. 

Our friend, Brenda, is here to share her story with you. You guys, trust me. It’s going to be an amazing one. I’m going to read a review and then we are going to jump right into it. 

Today’s review is by jess63636 and it says, “Fantastic resource for mamas looking to VBAC.” It says, “I listened to the VBAC podcast in the days leading up to my delivery. I wish I had discovered it sooner. The VBAC Link resource helped me through a successful VBAC induction.” 

Love it, congratulations. 

“It was an empowering experience facilitated by the support of The VBAC Link.” 

Oh, that makes me so happy. It makes me so happy. We have a lot of people that will find us toward the end and they’re like, “Oh, we wish that we knew about you.” I’m like, “I love that you love the podcast in the time that you did have us.” Don’t stop listening because guess what? All of these stories are going to continue and they’re all amazing and have their own special twists. So if you would also like to leave a review if you feel like jess63636 and would like to leave us a review, we would love it. So check it out. You can go on Google or on Apple Podcasts. You can shoot us a message at The VBAC Link on Instagram, Facebook, or wherever and you might be the next review read on the podcast. 

Meagan: Okay, Brenda. I’m excited to hear it. I was reading it, but I’m excited to hear from your words. I just think it’s great. We kind of talked about this right before we started recording, but I want to also tell listeners that you have something that a lot of our followers will write in and say, “My provider is telling me that I can’t have a vaginal birth because…” What do you have? 

Brenda: A partial bicornuate uterus.

Meagan: Yes.

Brenda: Also known as the heart.

Meagan: Heart-shaped, exactly. So a heart-shaped uterus. Is it different? Yes. But you are living proof, right? You are living proof that it can be done. So yeah, if you have a heart-shaped uterus then listen up. This is quite the story.

Brenda: All right. I’m just going to start with my daughter’s quick story/birth and everything and also just mention her C-section. There was nothing traumatic about it for me. Everything went really smoothly and it was a really good C-section. I almost fell asleep during it was how calm and peaceful it was.

Meagan: That’s so beautiful though. That’s so beautiful.

Brenda: Yeah, it really was. I love listening to redemption stories, but personally, it wasn’t a redemption for me. It was just another experience that I wanted to experience.

Meagan: Which I think is important to note by the way. Just saying that right there because we do hear a lot of hype, and mine was hyped I believe, and a traumatic experience. I don’t mean hyped like we are hyping it up. It’s a very intense lead-up and sometimes you can look back and are really struggling. It doesn’t always have to be that way and it isn’t always that way so we also need to be mindful of our listeners that didn’t have a traumatic Cesarean because sometimes we carry our feelings outwardly so it’s okay that someone had a beautiful experience.

Brenda: Yes. Yes. It was really beautiful and leading up to it when I found out I was going to need the C-section with her, I was really disappointed. Ultimately, I wanted to have an unmedicated, vaginal birth with her and then we ran into, they weren’t really complications, but we didn’t know about my uterus. I had a very healthy pregnancy.

She never moved much. She was breech pretty much the entire time. From my 20-week scan on, she never moved or flipped or anything but she was fine. A bunch of sono techs kept asking me, “Do you know what the shape of your uterus is?” By the time they had started asking me, my uterus was too expanded from being pregnant. I never had a reason to go find out what shape my uterus was.

We had switched our OBs multiple times throughout my first pregnancy. We went from a friend’s OB, who had two Cesareans with him which were great. He was a great doctor. I just didn’t want to be in the hospital really, so we switched to a birthing center and then we were kicked out of the birthing center because she was breech and I also had a velamentous cord with her.

Meagan: Which I feel like is also more common than we know.

Brenda: Yeah. Yes, it definitely is. But I know too, our OB from my second pregnancy said that he usually doesn’t find out until birth about it, but with my first pregnancy, everyone was scaring me about it because it can be scary.

Meagan: Yeah. It can result in IUGR and complications during birth.

Brenda: Yes, but I just feel like they really hyped it up for me like, “You need to get a C-section.” I did feel like I needed to because she was breech on top of the cord insertion. So we ended up switching to a midwife after we got turned down. It was a midwife that one of our friends who was also pregnant was using and I was just like, “You know what? Let’s just do it. I don’t really want to be with an OB. It’s a pretty good hospital here,” so we switched and she basically explained the velamentous cord because I feel like it was really hard to find information on it when you Google it. There’s no clear information on it.

She had drawn out a picture for us to understand it and then she explained, “And the baby’s breech and we don’t know what—” They thought that my uterus was a notch. I don’t know if I’m staying that right, but they thought that there was something stopping her from moving and then it ended up being that my uterus wasn’t what they expected it to be. So then once she drew the picture, it was just clear and I felt like, “Okay. This just needs to happen. I can’t even attempt it.” I even went through trying to find doctors who would deliver breech babies and there were not really many around here.

Meagan: There’s not really many around anywhere.

Brenda: Yes. So I did go down that route for a little bit and then I was just like, “Okay. I think I can’t do this. I’m stressing myself out too much and I don’t want the baby to be stressed,” so we had scheduled a C-section for May 17, 2021, and no. She was due on the 17th. The section was scheduled for the 13th and then my water ended up breaking at midnight on the 8th, the day before Mother’s Day.

But I did also do all of the squats and I tried to induce labor because just personally, I wanted her to pick her own birthdate. I’m one of the oddballs when it comes to C-sections. I don’t like to plan the date. I would prefer to go into labor and let the baby choose so I was so excited when my water broke in my sleep. My husband was freaking out because he was like, “Oh good. We have the C-section date,” not freaking out, but he was at ease.

Meagan: He was planning that day, yeah.

Brenda: Yeah, and then the next day was Mother’s Day. We got to the hospital. We had a doula and she ended up meeting us at the hospital. Because of COVID and everything, she wasn’t allowed to come into—I think in the OR they’re usually not allowed to come in at this hospital, but she couldn’t even come in after to see us, but she was with us before. It was nice because even though I was excited, both of us were really nervous.

Meagan: Yes. Well, talking about that. We get a lot of emails about, “What if it goes to a Cesarean, or what if I need a Cesarean? Is a doula worth it? Would you say yes?”

Brenda: 1000% yes. Yeah, I would say because we had hired her before I needed a Cesarean and then that happened. She was with us after and just comforting me. I really, really wanted to do an unmedicated birth. It was definitely worth it because she also came over to the house after. We didn’t know what we were doing. We were first-time parents also and then I’m recovering from a major surgery. It’s not just a birth. It’s a surgery too and I had never had any surgeries in my lifetime, so that was the first one. But yeah, it’s definitely worth it if you can afford it or if you find somebody. I know around here, they have a lot of communities where they have affordable doulas which are really nice.

Yeah, it was worth it and she was there, thankfully. My husband and I were both freaking out inside of our heads at the same time. I don’t think we both realized it and when we talked about it after, we had to wait for five hours for my C-section in the hospital.

Meagan: Wow.

Brenda: Yeah, because I had to get the COVID test and then I wasn’t really progressing or anything.

Meagan: Oh, wow. I was going to say that normally with that type of situation, they would get you right in so that’s interesting.

Brenda: Yeah, they were very busy that night.

Meagan: They’re like, “You’re okay. You’re not having a baby right now.” Gotcha.

Brenda: Yeah. Right before I went in, I started to get some mild contractions, but I didn’t know what contractions were until the second pregnancy. It was like, “Oh, I think I was getting a contraction. I don’t know.” But she kept us calm waiting to go in because five hours was a long time to wait.

Meagan: That’s a long time to wait.

Brenda: Yeah, so that was good and like I said, I almost fell asleep on the table and my husband was rubbing my head. He doesn’t do good with blood and stuff so he was trying to keep his eyes on me and rubbing my head to focus on something and not knowing it was really keeping me calm. But yeah, then she was born and it was Mother’s Day the next day. It was one of the hospital’s busiest weekends in years they said.

Meagan: Wow.

Brenda: Yeah, so that’s why we had to wait five hours.

Meagan: Makes sense, makes sense.

Brenda: Yeah, and then the next day, the OB—he was an on-call OB. I actually don’t even remember his name but I really, really liked him just because when he came in to check on us the next day, he had drawn out my uterus. He said, “So we have figured out your uterus. It is the partial bicornuate heart-shaped uterus” and explained, “This is where your daughter was in the womb,” and all of that.

I don’t remember if I asked him but he basically just said to me, “You can totally have a vaginal birth going forward now that we know,” because this is the part I forgot. They didn’t want to manually flip her because they were sure and then with the cord insertion and everything, it was too much. It could have been a big storm.

Meagan: Yeah, totally. That’s cool that he came and spent that time and was like, “This is where we’re going,” and that he even did say, “You can have a vaginal birth in the future, assuming we’ve got all of these other things.” But that’s really cool that he took that time, especially during one of the busiest weekends of the year.

Brenda: Yeah, yeah. Actually, thinking back now after my second pregnancy, the midwife, I wouldn’t go back to her even though she was great for that, but thinking back, I’m like, “She didn’t check on us.” There are a lot of things now looking back I’m like—

Meagan: Yes, and all of those things matter. They matter. They really do.

Brenda: Yeah, but then that was my daughter, Harper.

I’ll just go right into Hudson.

Meagan: All right.

Brenda: So Hudson is five months today by the way. I was very excited to record this for his five-month birthday. My husband and I had my daughter. We decided that we wanted to have another child and we just tried and two months later I became pregnant with him. I had reached out to the doula that we worked with for the first pregnancy. So I’m in Queens but I’m in the furthest part of Queens-- not the furthest part. I’m by the beach in Queens and she’s in Brooklyn and just where we are, it’s long to get to places in Brooklyn or in Manhattan and stuff. We’re just really far and it’s a long commute everywhere.

So she had recommended this other doula who was closer to us from her doula community and we ended up clicking really well. I know when I first met her—

Meagan: That’s awesome.

Brenda: Yeah, it was nice. When I first met her on the Zoom call, she had just said—I just assumed I was going to need a scheduled Cesarean for the second time because this is now, they’re 15 months apart. It’s pretty close.

Meagan: It’s close, yeah. Yeah.

Brenda: Yeah, but she had said, “No, if you want a vaginal birth, you should totally do your research,” and she recommended The VBAC Link. So then we ended up looking into it and my husband was freaking out a little bit because he also just had in his head, “Oh, two years. Two years.” That’s what everybody is told.

So once she recommended that I started listening to you guys and the more stories I heard, I was like, “Whoa. Okay.” I started researching, “How about babies who are born 15 months apart?” Just the shorter age gaps and stuff and I just kept hearing more and more and more, so then I decided, “All right. We’re going to try for a VBAC.”

We ended up calling the midwife back again—

Meagan: The out-of-hospital midwife?

Brenda: Yes. She was in the hospital with us. She was with me through the C-section.

Meagan: Okay, so not the birth center one.

Brenda: No, so the birth center wouldn’t allow me back in either because of the Cesarean. Even if it was five years later, they wouldn’t take me on.

Meagan: It was the fact that you were a previous Cesarean.

Brenda: Yeah. We did meet with her the first two appointments and I did find out from a Long Island VBAC Facebook group because the hospital that we went to was in Long Island and I had seen a post that our midwife, someone else who was seeing our midwife, wasn’t delivering anymore. My husband is a New York City firefighter and another couple in his firehouse was going to the same midwife. They were also pregnant and didn’t know either, so I guess she didn’t tell anybody. It was really odd.

Meagan: You were planning on giving birth with her.

Brenda: Yeah and she did say too at our first appointment, “Yeah, if you go into labor by 39 weeks, you can totally try for a VBAC. If you don’t we have to schedule you by 39.” It was that same thing and then I found out she wasn’t delivering, and then I went to hop around to the other OBs in the office just to see if I clicked with anybody and every appointment for me just felt like another doctor’s appointment. They all said the same thing.

In the VBAC group, somebody had mentioned a doctor from the practice and she had to fight with him to let her go to 41 weeks. I’m not a confrontational person.

Meagan: Well and it’s hard because you’re already so vulnerable to have to walk in with your boxing gloves up, it’s not a great start. It’s not a great start.

Brenda: Yeah, so I was just like, “I’m not fighting to want to go to 41 or 42 weeks. If I need to, the baby wants to.” So our doula and her doula community recommended the OB that we had switched to. My in-laws live next door and when I was talking to my mother-in-law, she was like, “Oh. That’s the practice that I went to when Sean was born,” but it was a different doctor. He had passed away and it was just a different doctor at the same practice. I was like, “Wow.” I felt like it was kind of meant to be.”

While I was on the way to, I think I had already been switched to him, an old friend had randomly reached out to me. I hadn’t talked to her since before COVID. We were talking on the phone. I’m driving to the OB and she’s like, “How are you?” She wanted to ask me something and I was just telling her, “I’m pregnant again and I had to switch OBs because I want a VBAC.” She had her VBAC with the same doctor.

Meagan: That’s awesome.

Brenda: Yeah, and she’s a little bit older than me. Her kids are my age. I’m 31. Her kids are my age. I was like, “Oh wow, so you had a VBAC with them?” Yeah, so it was just another sign like, “All right. This is meant to be. This is who we’re going to go see for this pregnancy.” When we met him, he said to me, “I don’t see why you can’t go to 41 weeks and then once you get to 41 weeks, we discuss other options or routes like induction or whatnot.”

That just made me feel really good the way he said that. He said, “You can totally. You had a healthy pregnancy. This pregnancy is healthy.” So we ended up switching to him and that was the second half of my pregnancy. Actually, I think I switched to him closer to the third trimester again.

So then fast forward to 39 weeks. I went for my 39-week checkup and everything was good. I think I was 2 centimeters dilated. I ended up getting my cervix checked and everything which was fine. I was asked if I wanted to just see where I was because, with Harper, my water broke at 38.5 so now I’m past the date that she was. I think I was 39+2 for my checkup or 39 and one day and everything looked good. No real signs of labor.

I go about my day and I was eating carbs all day. There was nothing around. I was too tired to do anything and then after my appointment, I went to a bagel store. It was in a very big Jewish community and they didn’t have meat or pork or anything so I had to get a grilled cheese but on a bagel, because they didn’t have regular bread either. It was a really thick sandwich but I was so hungry so I was like, “Whatever. I’m just going to eat this.”

Meagan: I bet it tasted really good.

Brenda: Yeah. I also had cookies. It was just all carbs all day. I remember thinking, “Man. I just need to eat protein tomorrow. This is too much. I feel carb overloaded.”

Meagan: Yeah, and then sometimes you just crash.

Brenda: Yeah, and that night we went out for a walk with my husband, my daughter, and my mother-in-law. We took my daughter to a playground and there was a little food truck by us. We got burgers after and I was just like, “More bread, but can I just have the patty?” but it was a little food truck, so I ate it.

We came home. I put my daughter down. I went to the bathroom and I lost my mucus plug. I had read about mucus plugs, but if it never happened, then I never knew. It didn’t happen with my daughter. I had no idea and then I was like, “Oh. This is the mucus plug that I’ve read about and that people talk about all the time.” It was a lot and it just didn’t stop coming out, so I just texted our doula.

Also this week, the doula that we hired was on vacation which we knew going into the pregnancy and I met the backup doula. In my head, I also knew. I’m like, “This is what’s going to happen. He’s just going to come the week that she’s on vacation,” kind of thing. I just had a gut feeling the whole pregnancy. I called our backup doula, Makee, just to let her know. I was like, “Hey, I lost my mucus plug. I know it doesn’t mean anything or it could mean something. Just to let you know.”

I was a little crampy but not enough to be like, “I’m in labor.” I went down to my husband and I just said to him, “We need to go to bed tonight. I don’t know what’s going to happen, but I might go into labor tonight. We should just get sleep while we can.”

Meagan: Prepare. Way to prepare.

Brenda: Yes. So we got ready to go to bed and I went to go take a bath really quickly because I had really bad restless leg syndrome. They were really bad in both pregnancies for me so I would take a bath before bed and it helped a lot. So I took a bath. I went to bed or tried to go to bed. My husband passed out with no problem. He’s like, “Okay, let’s go to sleep.” I tried to go to bed but Hudson was moving all around. He moved a lot but I was not used to the movement because Harper didn’t move at all that whole pregnancy and then this pregnancy, he was moving a lot but then that night was a lot more than ever. He was full-on partying in there.

Finally, when I was able to fall asleep, it had to be five or ten minutes before my water broke. My husband and I, because he knew I was trying for a VBAC, and our OB, Dr. Bachman, said to me when I met him that in order for a successful unmedicated VBAC, he told me to labor at home as long as possible.

Meagan: Yeah, wow.

Brenda: Which was the plan, yeah. That was one of the first things that he said to me. My husband would agree to a home birth if we lived in an area that had a better hospital nearby. The closest hospital is just not somewhere you want to be for emergency labor or whatever. So yeah. Our doctor had said to labor at home as long as possible, so my husband and I agreed that if my water breaks again, I’m going to let him sleep until I feel it necessary to wake him up because I wanted him to get sleep.

Meagan: Yeah. He needs to rest too.

Brenda: Yes. So he agreed and I went downstairs. I was like, “All right. Let me call our doula just to let her know that my water broke and things are moving along.” She had asked me, “All right, when you want me to come over, let me know.” I had to think about it because I don’t know how far along I am and I didn’t really go through full labor or even half of labor.

So I was just like, “All right.” One of my friends was up. This was 1:00 AM and she was up so I was like, “Okay. I’m going to call her.” So I called her and I was on the phone with her for almost two hours just to keep calm because I was getting contractions, but they were 6-7 minutes apart. I don’t know if that’s too close to being calm, but I felt fine and I was able to talk and stuff. I just couldn’t relax and go to sleep.

But Malky, our doula, also was telling me to eat whatever. I was trying to eat, but I ate so many carbs that day that it actually was great for me going into labor.

Meagan: You carb-loaded literally.

Brenda: So I was on the phone with my friend for two hours. I threw up in the middle of our conversation which I didn’t know was a thing while you are in labor, but it was just a one-and-done, so it was good. Then I was like, “All right. Let me just go wake Sean up because we have to get the car seat in the car still.” I don’t plan ahead. I had everything out for my hospital bag and I knew where I put everything, so I was like, “All right. When I go into labor, I’ll just pack it. I’ll have time,” which I did pack it, but we needed the car seat still in the car and stuff so I was like, “All right. Let me just go wake him up and just let him know.”

I called our doula. I was like, “You can come over now.” She was getting over something. She had been sick, so there was another backup doula for her, but she was over the hump. She had let me know on the phone. She was like, “Do you want me to connect you because she knows that you are in labor too?” I just said to her, “Nope. I need you here. I met you.” I’m sure the other doula was also great. I trust who they work with, but I just needed somebody that I had known and met already in person here. I was like, “I don’t care. Just come over. You won’t touch the baby and if I need you to hold the baby, you’ll just have a mask on,” kind of thing. I said, “Otherwise, you said that you’re over the hump. I trust you. Come over please.”

She came over and I took another bath while I was in labor. My husband lit some sage in a candle for me and made my bath water. He was just getting everything together. We have two dogs. Our daughter was sleeping throughout this whole time. She sleeps 12, 13, and 14 hours so she was out cold. I kept saying, “Oh, I can’t wait until she wakes up. She can hang out with us for a little bit.” I was still moving and talking and whatnot.

I was able to fall asleep in the bath for five or ten minutes and then my contractions were still five minutes apart. Our doula had explained, “Once your contractions start increasing to one minute long, a minute and a half long, we’ll start to decide if you are ready to go to the hospital or whatnot.” The entire time, they were 30-45 seconds. They never reached a minute.

My daughter woke up probably at 8:00 in the morning, a little after 8:00 and my husband went to go get her dressed and brought her into our bedroom. I had gone through the biggest transition during labor. It was just immediately like, “Okay. I feel like I have to poop. I know I have heard this in stories.” I looked at my doula and I was like, “Malky, we have to go to the hospital.” My husband was still with our daughter.

She was just like, “Are you sure?” because she was timing the contractions for us and making sure we have time to get there. She was just like, “Are you sure?” and then I had to think about it and I know in my head too, I couldn’t picture having the baby in the hospital. I’m very intuitive and it was just one of those things where in my head, I was like, “I don’t think we’re going to make it, but we can’t do this here because Sean is going to freak out.”

When she said that, I was like, “Yeah. We do have to go. I can’t have the baby here because this is what we had agreed on.” I was just like, “I didn’t plan to have the baby at home kind of thing,” so I was just like, “Yeah. We have to go.” Sean brought Harper into our room and the plan was for her to hang out with us in bed and have her morning milk with us.

Meagan: But it was past that at that point.

Brenda: I looked at him and I was like, “You need to bring her next door to your parents. We have to go now.” He had told his parents that I was in labor, so they knew, “All right. We’re going to be taking Harper soon,” so he brought her to his mom’s and then we were trying to go downstairs. At one point, I did have to poop so then Makee was like, “Can you feel for a head or something?” Sean was right outside our bedroom so I was like, “Oh no. He heard that. I hope he doesn’t freak out.” But he was really good. He was really calm hearing all of that.

So then I tried to feel, but I was too afraid to know if there was a head there kind of thing. My dream birth was if the baby was coming, just come out. I don’t want to have to push. So I just didn’t want to know. I just wanted the baby to come out if he was coming. I was like, “I don’t know. We have to go to the hospital.” I was too afraid to know.

Meagan: Yeah. You’re like, “Let’s just go.”

Brenda: We make our way down to the car. That was like I said, a little after 8:00, so finally, we’re all in the car at 8:45. I also looked at Malky and I was like, “You’re coming in the car with us, right?” She’s like, “No, that was the plan. That was the plan.” I was like, “Okay good because Sean is driving. I need you in the back with me. I can’t do these contractions by myself.” She was with me the whole time at the house and I couldn’t imagine doing them by myself in the car while Sean was driving.

So we all got in the car and we were driving. The tension in my body went away completely. I was still contracting but it wasn’t as bad as that last transition. I just felt a little more at ease and my contractions were still there, maybe four minutes apart, but less than a minute long. I’m talking to my husband and Malky in the car breathing. I was fine. The hospital was 28 minutes on the GPS to get there. It was morning traffic, but it wasn’t terrible. It wasn’t terrible. It was actually a good time when we left, but my husband didn’t think we were as far as I felt at first before leaving the house.

Then I did start to feel a little pressure moving downward and Malky was like, “Can you feel for the head?” I was too afraid to know still in the car. I was like, “I don’t know. I don’t know.” I don’t know what happened that made her ask me. She asked me. She was like, “Pull your pants down!” We were a couple of blocks away from the hospital.

Meagan: She wanted to look for the head.

Brenda: I was like, “You just need to look. I can’t do this.” I forget what exactly happened at that moment when she told me to pull my pants down to check. She was like, “I see a head.”

Meagan: Out or she’s seeing crowning?

Brenda: I think she’s seeing crowning. On top of this throughout my entire labor, I had asked her, “Take all of the pictures and videos you can.” So on top of doing all of that and calling the doctor in the car to update them, she’s recording everything for me.

Meagan: That’s amazing. That’s amazing.

Brenda: Yeah. So she said, “I see a head,” and I think she meant that the baby was crowning. He ended up flying out a few seconds later in the car and we were a block away from the hospital.

Meagan: I can’t. What did Sean do?

Brenda: He kept driving. He had to run a couple of red lights. Yeah, because he was taking his time at first and then once she said she saw the head, he had to skip through some red lights and go around because we were so close. He just went right to the front of the hospital. Malky kept calling the hospital and was just saying, “Okay, we’re coming. She’s literally about to have the baby.” I don’t remember if she called when the baby was there, but when we got there, the nurses were waiting for us in the lobby.

Sean parked right in front of the entrance and ran in. They were like, “Oh, where’s your wife?” She was like, “She’s in the car with the baby.” They all came running out of the hospital. They all came running out of the hospital and then the nurses came in to check on us. While we were driving that last block, I was trying to get Hudson skin-to-skin because I had a t-shirt on. I’m like, “Wait, how do I rip this off? I can’t.” At the same time, I’m like, “Is Sean okay? Is he going to pass out?” because he gets really woozy.

And then I was like, “Wait, but I also just had a VBAC.” I was so excited.

Meagan: All of these things are going through your mind.

Brenda: Yeah, yeah. I didn’t know what to do at first. I’m trying to get him on my skin, but it was really cool. They came out and they let me cut the cord in my car.

Meagan: That is awesome.

Brenda: Yeah, that was one of the things I really wanted to do was cut the cord myself. Sean wasn’t able to cut Harper’s cord because like I said, he gets woozy but after that car ride, he was able to cut the rest of the cord for Hudson in the hospital which I was shocked that he was just like, “Yeah. I’ll do it.”

Meagan: He was probably in the fight or flight like, “Sure, yeah,” not able to really think about what he was doing.

Brenda: Yes. Yeah. So he was able to do that and he made it without passing out. One of the first things when we parked and as soon as he got out of the car, I was like, “Is he okay? Is he going to pass out?”

Meagan: Yeah. I love that you just had this baby in the back of a car and you’re so worried about someone else’s feelings. I love it.

Brenda: I just wanted everybody to be happy and safe. I didn’t want my husband to pass out and he didn’t, thankfully. But he was in for it.

Meagan: I love it.

Brenda: And then the placenta was delivered in the hospital. They had given me a little Pitocin to get it out. Our OB was in the middle of another labor when we got there and then actually, I think he just got out when they got me in the bed to get into the hospital and the first thing he said was, “Well, you didn’t need me for your VBAC.”

Meagan: He’s like, “You did that on your own.” You did that all on your own. That’s crazy to think about.

Brenda: Yeah, it really is. I didn’t push. I felt the pressure, but I didn’t know what I was doing. Even after all of the stories that I’ve listened to, I was just like, “I think the baby’s coming but I don’t know,” and I think that maybe part of me was trying to hold it in until we got to the hospital so my husband wouldn’t pass out. But Hudson was just like, “Nope. I’m coming right now.”

Meagan: I’m coming. And there he was in the back of the truck.

Brenda: Yes. Yes.

Meagan: That’s amazing. Huge congrats. I’ve always wondered what it would be like. You see those videos and the videos go crazy because I remember I was like, “This is amazing!” But really if you think about your story as one of those that everybody thinks about or that they are like, “I don’t want to do this,” but then it sometimes happens.

Brenda: Yep, yep. Yeah. It was quite the experience. I know I’ve heard even on your podcast stores, there are people who are like, “I almost had the baby in the car,” and that wasn’t really my intention, but it happened. Whenever I heard them in stories and stuff, I was like, “Wow. Could that be me? No. I might just be a C-section mom for the rest.” That was just in my head, but yeah. Like I said before we left, when I said to Malky when she asked me if I’d be more comfortable, no. I wouldn’t be more comfortable in the hospital, but in my head, I couldn’t picture having a baby in the hospital which was crazy.

It was like I kind of knew we weren’t going to make it but I wasn’t trying to not make it.

Meagan: Yeah. Right, right, right. Yeah. That intuition was speaking to you.

Brenda: Yeah. I was like, “Oh man. We might have stayed home a little bit too long.”

Meagan: I love it so much. It’s so awesome. It’s so, so awesome. You’ve had this journey of finding providers, a little bit closer timeline of pregnancy and birth, and a heart-shaped uterus. You’ve got all of these things and then you just had this beautiful accidental car birth, but a beautiful VBAC. I’m so happy for you and huge congrats.

Brenda: Thank you. There was just one more thing I wanted to mention. When we did switch to our OB, they are a very old-school practice so they don’t do the measurements. They don’t measure anything but he had sent me to their high-risk tech just to check everything out toward the end. I only had one appointment with them and I remember being in there. After the tech measured everything and everything looked good, the doctor came in to talk to us and she made me feel like I was crazy for wanting a VBAC so close. I know towards the end of the appointment, she was like, “Do you want to know your success percentage?”

Meagan: The VBAC calculator?

Brenda: Yes, which I didn’t even know was a thing until she asked me.

Meagan: Totally a thing.

Brenda; I don’t really get intimidated. I’m just the type of person that I need to know every little thing that could go wrong and it doesn’t stress me out, but I have friends who it does stress out and family who stresses out over that stuff and they would rather not know which I respect. I’m just the opposite of that. So I was like, “Yeah. Go ahead. Do it. I’m curious.” I think I was something like 75% or something. It was in the seventies and I’m like, “Oh, great. That’s a good number.” I think she was trying to scare me. It was really weird and uncomfortable.

They had mentioned too that I had a velamentous cord insertion the second pregnancy too and I said, “No, I don’t think so. It’s been pretty strong from the beginning.” When we were still at the other office, I know it can change, but nobody ever said anything. They had told our OB this time that “Oh, she has a velamentous cord insertion,” kind of thing. I know she didn’t make a big deal of it but I just knew it wasn’t a velamentous cord insertion. At the hospital, when the placenta was delivered, our OB was like, “Nope. You were right.” They were reading the paperwork from my first pregnancy. I kept saying that to her. I was like, “Are you sure you’re reading the right notes? Everything you’re saying is from Harper’s pregnancy, not this pregnancy.”

She was just like, “No, no, no. I’m right and you’re wrong.” I was like, “Okay, whatever you say. I know what I’m feeling.”

Meagan: You’re like, “But okay.”

Brenda: Yeah. Yeah.

Meagan: Yeah. It sounds like you’re really intuitive.

Brenda: Yes. I was just happy to be right after the VBAC and then when the doctor told me because I was just like, “Can you just make sure? I’m curious. I know the placenta is here. Everything went well. I just needed to know. Did they really mess up?”

Meagan: Yeah. Interesting.

Brenda: But yeah. That was Hudson’s story and I can’t believe that he entered the world like that.

Meagan: Me neither but it’s amazing. Such a fun story to share forever. He’ll be like, “Yeah. I was born in a car.” That is so awesome. Well, thank you so much, so so much for being here with us today and sharing your story.

Really quickly before we go, I feel like you’re an entrepreneur and I just wanted to share your stuff. We’ll make sure to tag all of your stuff on Instagram today and have it in the show notes but do you want to tell everybody? To me, it looks like custom designs and t-shirts and hoodies and hats and beanies and all of these things, and then are you a yoga instructor?

Brenda: Yes.

Meagan: Okay, that’s what I thought.

Brenda: Yes. Yes, so I teach yoga. I actually recently went back to a spa where I was teaching at. I guess I’ve been there for over a month now. I’ve been back for over a month because COVID happened then I was pregnant for two years and then recently, I was like, “Okay. I need to go back and teach.” I don’t want to work full-time. I love being home with the kids so yoga is nice because it’s just one hour out here and there. Like I said, we live next door to my in-laws who are amazing help and I’m able to go teach because of them. If we didn’t have the help, my husband works too and his schedule is all over the place, so we have that.

Meagan: Where can people find you?

Brenda: My Instagram is @YogiBrendaLee and then I also make t-shirts and sweatshirts and stuff at home. We do local designs and are starting to branch out to do not some local designs so that people elsewhere can find them. My husband’s been helping me with our website and that’s called Channel Creations. I think the website is channelcreationsbc.com.

Meagan: Yep. That’s what I have.

Brenda: Okay, yes. I had to go double-check.

Meagan: Super cute stuff. I should have you do a custom VBAC sweatshirt.

Brenda: Oh, yeah definitely.

Meagan: I’ll have to write you. That would be awesome.

Brenda: We’re here. We make stuff for some local companies here and a bunch of our friends usually hook us up with people that they know for their businesses. But yeah, so that’s that. Yeah, we have—I’ll show you, but it’s this mama shirt that we just recently came up with and it has the hearts with everybody’s name on it.

Meagan: So cute.

Brenda: The dogs’ names are on here too.

Meagan: I love that. So cute. So cute.

Brenda: Thank you, yeah.

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

Achieving your VBAC is an accomplishment worth celebrating, but it's also important to hold space for processing the difficult moments.

Pat joins us today to share how she birthed both of her babies over the age of 40 as well as how she found a supportive team to go for her VBAC.

She shares the importance of paying attention to your feelings when choosing a provider even if everyone around you feels differently. Pat experienced some traumatic events during her VBAC which left her feeling grateful for the outcome desired but unexpectedly having to grieve the loss of what she thought would be a dreamy and empowering experience.

Additional Links

Pat’s Website

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Meagan: Hey guys, this is Meagan. I’m so excited for another amazing story. We are actually going to be talking about something that I don’t feel like we talk about a ton and it’s going to be pregnancy after 40. Even really 36, right? I feel like in the medical world, 36 is old. I’m doing air quotes because it’s such an annoying thing to be but we are going to talk about that. Pregnancy after 40 and what that looks like and how that may feel for someone. 

We have our friend, Pat, today from L.A. She’s going to be sharing her stories. She did have a VBAC and we talk about this often on social media and things like that where people may have a vaginal birth after a Cesarean and it’s the most healing, amazing, beautiful experience and then sometimes it’s not. So I’m excited to hear from Pat today and hear more about her experience. 

But of course, we have a Review of the Week so I’m going to make sure to get into that before Pat starts sharing her story. Just a fair reminder, if you guys have a chance, if you would please leave us a review, we love your reviews as you know. We talk about it all the time but really, they make us smile so much and we love reading them on the podcast. So push pause and go leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts. 

This specific review is from Sarah. She doesn’t have a subject on it but she says, “I am a birth and postpartum doula who is always on the search for a birthy podcast to listen to in my car. I was so excited when I found The VBAC Link so I could listen to these amazing stories from women all around the world who reached their goals through becoming educated thanks to Meagan and Julie. I recently certified with The VBAC Link as well and I’m impressed by the thorough delivery with which their knowledge was shared in the training. I’m super excited to move into the next chapter of my career and I’m so thrilled to do so with an amazing community and support.” 

Sarah, I love it. Thank you so much. It is so awesome to have you as one of our VBAC doulas. Birth workers, if you didn’t know out there, we actually have a birth worker course on how to support your VBAC clients because again, we talk about it. It shouldn’t be anything more than just someone going in to have a baby, but with vaginal birth after Cesarean or a Cesarean I should say, and wanting to go for vaginal birth after Cesarean, there are hurdles that a lot of clients have to jump through. It’s so nice to learn how to support them so we have a certification course and we add you to our doula list and share you with the world. 

So parents, if you are looking for a VBAC doula, go to thevbaclink.com/findadoula and see if there’s a doula near you. 

Meagan: Okay, Pat. I can’t wait. Thank you so much for taking the time today to be with us. 

Pat: No, thank you for inviting me. I’m so excited. This podcast has been such a big and helpful thing to prepare for my VBAC so thank you for that.

Meagan: Absolutely, well I’d love to turn the time over to you. 

Pat: Yeah, I am Spanish so that’s why I have a weird accent but I’ve been living in L.A. for the last ten years with my husband. I have two kids now. One is two and a half and the other one is going to turn ten months in just a little bit. 

My journey started really late or later than other people here in the states. I always knew I wanted to be a mother but then I saw my friends having kids and saw what that really means to your life, so for a little bit, I was trying to decide whether I could really take on motherhood or not. I knew that if I were to be a mother, it would be in my late thirties. I really wanted to push it which makes sense now because if I hadn’t done that then, I would have different kids. I really believe in destiny and these kids were meant to be for me. So I think I’m happy with that. 

With that also came a lot of stress from the doctors. All this talk about the extra risks and how difficult or impossible it was going to be to get pregnant at 39. My journey, thank God, wasn’t that hard. I had an IUD, a copper IUD, and I took it out in January 2019. For the first three months, I didn’t get pregnant, but I also had weird pain and my period was really strange. I had an ultrasound and they saw that actually, I had an IUD inside of me even though they took it out. 

Meagan: What?!

Pat: Yeah. It was so bizarre. I don’t want to get into details because it will take us the whole hour, but what happened was that someone along the way, and I had an IUD since I was 20 because I had DBT and I couldn’t take hormones so that was the way I chose to go. In those years, someone forgot to take out the old IUD and just pushed a new IUD inside of me. 

Meagan: Oh my land. 

Pat: It was crazy to discover that. So anyway, they took it out and three months after that, I was pregnant. That was October-November I think of 2019. So it was fairly quick for my age and everything. I was thrilled. My pregnancy also was super healthy. I did have certain things here and there but nothing that a younger person wouldn’t have. I barely had any morning sickness or anything. I did have a couple of weird symptoms. One of them was palpitations. I didn’t know that I had them and then towards the middle of my pregnancy, I started having not fainting, but lightheaded episodes where I really had to lay down in the street when I was walking my dog around several times 

We discovered that it was something regarding my breakfast really, so I had a thing for toast with peanut butter in the morning and I guess the way my blood sugar was doing something weird and I was really almost fainting in the street. Once a doctor told me to actually change that for protein and to have protein first in the morning. Immediately, that disappeared. 

Other than that, everything was great. I was feeling super beautiful with my pregnant belly and I was going for an unmedicated birth. I was really preparing mentally and physically for it. I did Hypnobabies. I was really in my head. I was obsessed with it as a friend of mine recommended me to be if I wanted to achieve it. I was doing all of the work. Everything was going great. 

Of course, we get into 2020. COVID comes in. My husband was able to still come into the 20-week ultrasound which was awesome, but after that I was alone and there was a lot of stress added to the pregnancy. I feel like it was toward the end of my third trimester that I don’t know why, but my mind started to lose its balance. All of the fear about motherhood came crashing down and the last few weeks, they were full of excitement but also fear. Everybody was like, “Are you so excited?” I was like, “Yeah, but I’m also so scared.” I felt guilty. I couldn’t talk to anyone about that. Because I was scared, people would think I am a bad mother or I’m going to be a bad mother. 

Anyways, we didn’t hire a doula which is important in this birth story because of COVID but I guess I didn’t know that I was going to need her so much. The doctor told me towards the end of the pregnancy that he was OP but that he could still move. I would feel the baby. He didn’t have space. I could feel that my belly was so tight. I didn’t think that he was going to move. I didn’t know anything about helping him position more than a couple of exercises I saw on Spinning Babies. 

When the birth started, it was after my 40-week appointment. I wasn’t very dilated. My doctor checked me and I was 1 centimeter and then she said that I wouldn’t probably go into labor for a few days. But then the next day, I woke up with contractions. They were light and just like period cramps every ten minutes. So I was excited but I also was in denial. “This cannot be. I’m only 1 centimeter,” which didn’t matter at all. I’ve learned that now. 

During the whole day, they went like that. They progressed a little bit in how painful they were, but they were ten minutes apart. Nothing was really happening so I just kept going. I had heard of prodromal labor, so I thought that maybe this was not it. By the time I went to bed, they were 7-10 minutes apart, but they were not super painful but painful enough that I couldn’t sleep during the whole night. 

Meagan: So tired, I’m sure. 

Pat: So tired. This was a Friday. So Saturday, it just kept going the same. Actually, the contractions got a little bit weirder. Instead of coming down and getting a pardon, they were all over like seven minutes to ten, five, and they were getting more and more intense as I would go but still, nothing was happening. Basically that night, I tried everything because I called my doctor and she confirmed that it could be prodromal labor. I had the feeling that it wasn’t, that it was labor that was not progressing because nothing would stop it, not any bath, nothing. 

So that night, I took some Benadryl and could sleep between contractions, but it was a few minutes here and there. But the next day, it was Sunday. I was so tired and then up to this point, I had been trying to move forward with this pregnancy and this birth. I would do exercises but at this point, I was scared because I thought, “I am going to get caught up in this level of pain for two more weeks and I just don’t think I can take it.” I tried to slow it down. I wanted to wait basically. I was also losing my mind a little bit. It was my third day with very little sleep. I didn’t know what was going on. I didn’t know how to cope with contractions, or how to breathe properly. This is where a doula, I think, would have made a difference. 

Obviously, my baby was not coming down, and just having someone with me that would have helped me position the baby better, I think, would have made a difference but it was what it was at this point. So another night without sleeping and we are on Monday now. The doctor tried to convince me to go in for a membrane sweep, but I really couldn’t get out of the house, so again, I lived in the bath. I was in the bath, in the bath, in the bath. Finally, my water broke a little bit. There was a gush of water but it was yellow. That’s how I could see it. I didn’t know what that meant, but obviously, it meant that there was some meconium. 

So my doctor told me that since my water broke, she felt comfortable waiting until the next day, but I had to be in the hospital at 7:00 AM on Tuesday. By that night, I think it was 1:00 in the morning when the pain was so bad and my mind was so out of it. I was even regretting being pregnant at this point. Just get me out of here. So basically, I told my husband, “Let’s just go because I don’t know what this is. I want an unmedicated birth but if this is nothing then I really need help because I just cannot go on like this anymore.” 

So we got there. The triage was horrible. It was hours until I was checked in. Discovering that I was only 3 centimeters was crushing, to say the least. Once I was there, I knew that an epidural would help me sleep and that’s what I needed. So by that time, they still did walking epidurals which I don’t know why they call it that because they don’t let you walk anyways. 

Meagan: It’s just a lighter epidural essentially. 

Pat: I know, but they should change the name. Definitely. So that really helped me. I slept for an hour and when my doctor came and checked me in the morning, I was 5 centimeters. I was at 0 station. Basically, the doctor said because of the circumstances, she thought that I had to be around a 6 by the time she came back later on. I thought it was achievable. I had a whole morning. By that time also, I had developed a lot of pain in my left side and in my right side. The right was a sciatica type of pain and the left was just my lower back. It was hurting a lot like my kidney type of thing. 

I was drinking water and drinking water and I just couldn’t get satiated. I kept laboring in bed. They didn’t mention the OP baby. They didn’t offer a peanut ball. Nothing, so I was there just surviving in bed. They wouldn’t let me get up, so I would sneak in between visits from the nurse and get up with my husband a little bit because I would feel my legs and everything. I needed to get up because it was so excruciating, the pain in my back when I was laying down. 

The doctor came at 3:00 PM and I was again 5 centimeters. Her fear of infection was clearly high. She was scared for me even if nothing really was happening. At that point, my water really, really, really broke and there was this green, thick layer. It was full of meconium coming out of me which I knew was only a matter of watching it. It didn’t mean that I could not have a vaginal birth, but it was a little concerning. 

The doctor convinced me to take Pitocin at that point. I started that at 3:30 and the pain in my sides increased. It was more and more difficult to try to stay in bed. A few hours later, I think it was around 9:00 PM, I had blood pressure issues. Everything was starting to pile up. There was a little bit of protein in my urine, but I had been given so many different infusions of liquids that my doctor chose to change one first before giving me my other medicine to see if that worked. That worked, but by that time, for someone who didn’t want any interventions, I was full of tubes everywhere to my uterus with a catheter, it was just really bizarre. 

During that time, I also had a resident come in. She was the chief of residents and she was one of the sources of my trauma really in the hospital because she was really disrespectful to me not only in her comments. When she saw me in pain, she said, “Oh, you wanted a natural birth so I don’t know what you expected,” and things like that. Also, she came and checked me and she really hurt me. I asked her to stop and instead of stopping, she pushed harder inside of me. 

Meagan: Oh!

Pat: I didn’t even know how to react to that because she ignored me and she kept doing it even harder. I felt so violated by that and that just stayed with me. 

Meagan: I’m so sorry. 

Pat: Yeah, it was crazy. I continued laboring and the blood pressure resolved. The kidney was failing. They said it was damaged. That was why the protein was coming out on the tests. But with that change of liquids that they gave me, apparently, it just made it better. The pain was still there, but the protein disappeared. My blood pressure came down and that was really it. Around 10:30, following my notes, apparently, the baby’s heart dropped. It lasted more than eight minutes, but it wasn’t a big drop. That was also my first experience with everyone coming into the room screaming. This is another thing. I saw this chief resident talking to my husband about what was happening to me but no one was talking to me. They were yelling at me, “On all fours!”

That was after I got up and they saw me up, so they were also yelling at me, “What did you do? This is all you. Go back to bed.” I was so scared. Yeah, but nobody was explaining to me what was happening. Luckily, they got that under control and then they explained to me what had happened. They told me to lay on my side really, really still. On that side, it really, really hurt almost like torture. A really well-designed torture. They had stopped Pitocin and they restarted it an hour later. Everything was going well, but again, after a couple of hours, there was another deceleration. We are now at 4:00 AM so it is 24 hours after I had gotten to the hospital. 

This one was shorter, but it was deeper. I was only 6 centimeters when I had it. I couldn’t even picture myself having a baby frozen in this position. “You cannot do this. You cannot do that.” How am I going to birth a baby then? I was really sad, but I didn’t see any other way out. I had my cry with my husband and then we just went to the OR. 

It wasn’t an emergency, so we had a minute to process. It was something that needed to be done. My doctor was great at talking to me. This was the first time that she actually came to the hospital after 24 hours, so once she was there, I didn’t have to deal with the chief resident. She is always really respectful and she always talks to me about everything before making a decision so that was great and helped me calm. 

The surgery went great, but I was so out of it. For example, when they were going to pull out the baby, they lowered the curtain but I couldn’t see. I couldn’t even say it. I didn’t see it. I couldn’t see and I said, “Okay,” then I turned and looked at my husband and at his face. He was looking at our baby being born which also was beautiful, but I was really, really out of it. I think it took them 15 minutes or so to bring the baby. They also raised him, but I only saw the legs. I remember him crying and just realizing that I actually had a baby. It’s a real baby and not a fish that was inside of my belly. It was pretty great. 

Then they wheeled me into recovery and I was in a lot of pain, but my husband recalls actually that when they brought the baby, he actually said, “I thought you were dying but then they brought the baby and put him on your chest and you were fine.” I didn’t remember that but I keep that as a memory because I thought that was one of the most beautiful things that happened. He also crawled to my breast which was really great. 

Meagan: Yay. That’s really cool because a lot of times with Cesareans, they don’t allow that to happen so that’s really cool. 

Pat: Right. No, they were really good at giving me the baby as soon as they could. I also held him in the OR but I wasn’t feeling great and then they took him back. But then this nurse came and without saying anything. I’m in this beautiful moment. The baby latches. I’m just enjoying it and this woman starts punching me in the uterus basically. That’s how it felt. Massaging me and I screamed like I’ve never screamed in my life. It hurt so much. I asked her. Again, she didn’t say anything. I asked her, “What are you doing?” She said, “I have to do this because it’s either this or you’re going to bleed to death.” I said, “But I’m not hemorrhaging or anything. That was just another thing that really impacted me. 

Meagan: That sticks in your mind, yeah. 

Pat: Exactly. The flashbacks come afterward. It might not sound like a big deal, but it is a big deal. It’s a really big deal. We went to the room and after that, everything was beautiful getting to know our baby and naming him because we knew that he was a boy but we had different names. He was great. He was drinking. He was wetting the diaper but then because of all of the liquids that I got, first of all, he was 8 pounds, 12 ounces when he was born but almost a pound of that or half a pound of that was liquid. He was so swollen. 

Meagan: Yes. I want to talk about that because a lot of people don’t realize that’s a thing. We have long labors and we receive a lot of fluid or we receive a lot of antibiotics and all of these fluids, it can actually make our baby bigger than they actually are. So yeah. It’s crazy. You have to have an 8-pound baby come out, but then they’re 7 pounds. It’s scary because it looks like they’ve dropped so much weight and then you’re not thinking that you are feeding your baby right and they’re not getting enough milk when actually, they’re getting rid of that excess fluid. 

Pat: That was part of the problem. It’s crazy that they don’t know it. 

Meagan: They don’t talk about that. 

Pat: The problem was that he was losing so much weight because he was getting out of the liquids but in the process because apparently, all of the liquids threw his pH off so he was dehydrated. He was eating normally but he was dehydrated. After another day, his diaper was dry. I told the nurse, “I don’t think this is normal.” She was like, “No, no. This is normal. Don’t worry.” I was like, “Okay. I guess maybe babies are like that.” But then we had a great lactation consultant and she noticed that he was breathing really fast. 

They had to take him to the NICU just because of dehydration. It was another setback on the happy ending type of thing. But luckily, he only spent the night and a morning there and he was okay. We took him home. This was already day number four in the hospital. From then on, he thrived. We had to do for a little bit, I think it’s called a [inaudible] feeding thing just to make sure he was gaining weight but it was really obvious from the get-go that my milk was enough for him and he was good with it so after a week, we weaned him out of the bottle and he was only breastfeeding, gaining weight, and everything was great. 

Yeah, I had a lot of emotions but my postpartum was really good. I think that has a lot to do with my placenta encapsulation but I will never know I guess. 

Meagan: I know. I love placenta encapsulation myself. So yeah. 

Pat: So yeah, second baby. I remember a nurse in my room. I was actually getting wheeled to the OR and I had a nurse talking to me, “Don’t worry, honey. You can have a VBAC.” I was like, “I don’t know about this VBAC, but I’m telling you that I’m not having more kids.” 

So that VBAC thing stuck with me. I started having baby fever really early on like six months postpartum. I thought my baby was so cute, I thought, “I want another baby.” My husband was a little resistant but I knew that I was going to convince him so in the meantime, I started listening to The VBAC Link Podcast. It was a great source of learning. I’ve always loved birth stories, but this was really specific. Listening to so many Cesarean stories, I could also understand better what happened to me and maybe make a plan for why I didn’t want it to repeat again in the future. 

When I got pregnant, I got pregnant on the first try. I just want to say it again because I was 42 at the time. I was 41.5. I turned 42 when I was pregnant. Age doesn’t have to be an impediment to having kids. Every person is a person. Statistics don’t represent you. I want people to have hope for that. This pregnancy went also really well. The symptoms were a little bit worse. I didn’t have extreme nausea or anything, but it was a little bit worse. Not too bad, but a little bit worse. I hear that happens with second babies and third. 

At this moment, what I was more focused on was my VBAC. Of course, I wanted to go unmedicated too, but I really wanted to do everything possible to have a vaginal birth. I hired this doula. I live in L.A. and there is this famous doctor who everyone goes to. I thought, “I love my doctor, but she already was talking about how she follows a certain procedure at the hospital.” At 39 weeks, she recommended being induced and all of that stuff. I just thought, “She’s great, but I really want to have the best chance. If they call this guy the king of VBACs, shouldn’t I go with him?” I went with him and he was really hopeful about my VBAC. He has a weird personality. He’s really nice but at the same time, he is just not everyone’s cup of tea and not my cup of tea in a lot of different things. 

I had a little bit of a red flag for certain things that he was trying to force on me. When I would tell him, “I don’t want this or I don’t want that,” he would just get mad basically and try to push it. I was going away from having to convince my doctors of what I wanted for my birth so I landed on a guy who was supposed to be– it felt to me at the time– the only way of having a VBAC and having to have the same fights with him, it felt really confusing. I think it’s really important to know that because a provider might be VBAC-supportive, it doesn’t mean that they are not also intervention-supportive which is what happened with this guy basically. 

I continued with him because I was really scared to not have my VBAC unless I was with him. 

Meagan: Right, because everybody around is like, “Go here.” 

Pat: Yeah, and here’s another thing. I could find maybe one or two medium reviews, but all of the reviews about him in all of the VBAC groups were like, “No, this is a great guy.” 

Meagan: This is the person, yeah. 

Pat: People don’t want to tell bad stories. They don’t want to talk badly about the doctor then what are you doing then? You are just protecting this doctor. You are not protecting women or people that are birthing. 

Meagan: Well, and what’s hard too is even though one provider may be very VBAC-supportive and be very cohesive with that patient, it doesn’t mean that he or she is going to be an amazing VBAC-supportive doctor, but may not still fit the same desires. They can be VBAC-supportive but they might not be the right provider for everybody else. 

Pat: Yes, yes. I wish I could have read a little bit more about him because then just talking to other women in the group privately, they would say, “Yeah,” and most of the people had a good experience with him, but I wish I would have been able to read or find these reviews because that maybe would have made a difference in trying to find another VBAC-supportive provider. But I stuck with him. 

Everything went well. I had no problems that could have been related to age or problems at all. It was a normal, healthy pregnancy. I had been really careful of my positioning during the pregnancy so baby wouldn’t be OP but he was OP too. By that time, we didn’t know he was a he. I knew that it doesn’t matter he’s OP. It’s another baby. It’s another birth. I have a doula now. If I get stuck in another 4-day or 5-day birth, this person is going to help me get through it. I believe I can do it. I just need help. That’s it. 

Meagan: Well, and it would probably shorten it because they would probably know and have some tools that would hopefully help. 

Pat: Which she did because my story, with this second baby went really similarly. I actually was 39 weeks pregnant this time. I don’t know if it was all of the cleaning I did or my two-year-old, my one-year-old then had this huge tantrum, one that he never had. He cried in my arms for two hours and I felt my first contraction when I was with him. From there, it started the same way. Really low-key, a cramping feeling that went a little bit up during the day but nothing was happening either. 

But then at night, I tried to sleep and I was in so much pain. I was having really huge contractions. We are still cosleeping basically. My toddler was there. My husband was there and my body didn’t feel free enough to move things forward. My husband had me labor during the night, but in the morning, it went down. The contractions, I didn’t even time but in the morning they were back to 7-10 minutes and less painful but still really intense. I remember I kept cleaning. I did a set of exercises to get things going from Spinning Babies. 

Meagan: Three Sisters? 

Pat: The [inaudible] one. 

Meagan: Oh, yes. I know what you’re talking about. 

Pat: There were a bunch of exercises you could do so I did all of them. Here’s another thing that I recommend to people who have had trauma in their first births. I thought, “I’ve got it.” I thought, “I have processed this. I am okay.” I even wrote a script about witches. It’s named The Resident. I thought I had processed it but I didn’t so when things were really starting to get similar to my first birth, my mind got out of whack. I lost it and I remember crying to my sister-in-law, “This is the same as with Liam. It’s going to be five days. I’m going to end with a Cesarean.” Totally negativity that I didn’t need at that moment. 

Meagan: You spiraled. Yeah. I did that too. 

Pat: I spiraled, yeah. So you really need to process your first birth before going into a VBAC. But I could feel that things were different. I felt the body recharge that I never had. I could feel my hips hurting a lot which meant something was happening down there so that kept me hopeful. My husband told me, “Listen. I saw you with our first. This is different. You are so much more advanced right now. You never got to this point.” 

Meagan: But in your mind, you’re relating to what you know. 

Pat: I know and also your mind is not a rational mind in that moment. It is full of fear and you’ve been told that you cannot do this, so why would you think you can do it? That’s where your mind goes in that moment. My doula came finally that afternoon and she had me breathe through the contractions which I think was key because from there on, I could relax with them and I got in the bath and everything felt more controlled. 

One of the things that she actually had me do for the last couple of months before the birth was sleeping with two or three pillows in between my legs as if it was a peanut ball or a peanut ball. I had a bunch of pillows. I feel like that was key too because my hips are not too wide for how tall I am. I feel that keeping my hips open really helped this time. 

That night, the second night, I went to bed with a Benadryl again and I woke up at 1:00 or so. I was in a lot of pain. Really big contractions that you couldn’t sleep through. Again, I went to the bath and the counterpressure really helped. It really, really helped. It was one of the things that helped me the most. I had the HypnoBabies in my first pregnancy, but it never got to really help me at all. It’s really funny just singing a song in my mind. It was Yellow by Coldplay. Not even loud in my mind. Every contraction and that was it. I could go through them. It was just crazy. 

Meagan: I did the same thing with Believe by Whitney Houston. 

Pat: It was a random song also. 

Meagan: “If you believe,” and singing it in my head, and then I ended up making a slideshow video with that song. It just connected to me. 

Pat: That’s so cute. Yeah. It was magic. I think it was 3:00 or 4:00 AM in the morning. It was intense enough that I thought, “If I keep going then I might have him in the car.” I would feel different things in my hips. I could feel a little bit of the movement going down. It was like, “No, no. This is different.” I’m now going to get there and I’m going to be just 3 centimeters. If not, I don’t understand birth at all. 

So we went to the hospital. It was 40 minutes away, 30 with traffic. It was bad but not horrible because of Coldplay. When I got there, it was amazing because I had a really strong contraction and the nurses just put me in a room. 

Meagan: You didn’t have to be in triage for 3 hours. 

Pat: If you go to the hospital, just have a really, really, really big contraction so you don’t have to wait there for 3 hours. So yeah, I got checked. I of course didn’t want a resident around me so I had a midwife team. The midwife checked me and I was 10 centimeters she said but I had a bulging bag so I was 8 centimeters. 

Meagan: Yeah. Sometimes a bag can overstretch the cervix and then the bag breaks and the cervix relaxes. It seems like they check and they’re like, “We don’t feel any cervix,” but then the bag goes away and they’re like, “Oh. There’s some cervix left.” So that’s probably what happened. 

Pat: I was not even defeated because I thought, “I am still 8 centimeters. I never made it through 6.” 

Meagan: Huge. Huge. Yeah. 

Pat: I was so proud of myself, but I must say that when I got there, I was walking into the room and my doctor came in. He looked so tired. He had two births before me. What he said was, “Don’t tell me you are in labor.” I’m like, “I am in labor.” You could tell he was not there. He was tired which I understand, but I still feel like you have to be professional. You cannot tell that to a birthing woman. That’s where the problems with him started. It didn’t feel good but I forgot about it. I had my midwife and I was mostly laboring with her. He would just come in and out. 

I thought I was doing it. I didn’t want an epidural. I was laboring in the room. I was really tired, but the baby also was really high like -3. He was not down but it didn’t worry me too much. I kept going. I kept going for two or three hours. In between, my doctor came and checked me but there was no progress. At some point, I guess I wasn’t coping as well. I think I was just getting into transition because in between contractions, I was like, “Ohh,” like kind of fainting. I felt like my body needed rest. Two days laboring with this kid felt much more than five days laboring with my other kid, so I don’t know. 

My doula suddenly said, “You know, I know you want an unmedicated birth, but I just don’t think you are going to progress if you don’t take the epidural.” I understand she said that because she was scared for me not to have my VBAC but also, I feel like it was early in the game. Why don’t we try other things before that? 

But it was true because basically what I thought– my husband though was my huge supporter. He was like, “No, no, no. You’re doing great. You can do this. You can do this.” He still tells me nowadays, “If you could have heard me and not the doula–”. I was like, “Supposedly, doulas have so much experience–”. 

Meagan: Sometimes, an epidural is a great tool. There’s this spot where we get in labor where we’re tense and we’re not really letting our body go, so an epidural can come into great play and allow us to finish out that cervix and that dilation and that process, but yeah. If you didn’t want one then there are other things you could do. Different positioning and coping and breathing and water. 

Pat: I think that’s what she saw. She saw that I was too tense and that was not going to go anywhere. So I said, “Okay. I’m going to wait half an hour and if I did not progress, then I will consider it. It would be the right thing. It makes sense.” This was almost four hours from the moment we got there. When we got checked, I hadn’t progressed and I accepted the epidural. 

Meagan: Did your water break? Was it bulging and then they broke it or was it still bulging? 

Pat: The doctor broke it a little bit but just enough so that it would just come out a little bit and come down, but he didn’t break my waters completely. They actually broke when I was laboring in the room. It was really funny because it was gallons of clear water which was a different experience. It was like, “This is so clear. This is so clear.” But it was gallons and gallons of water coming out of my body. It was crazy. 

But yeah. After the epidural, I rested. At that point, they didn’t have the option of the walking epidural anymore so it was a normal epidural but I could still feel my legs and a little bit of pressure. It was good but I could rest. I couldn’t sleep but I could rest. Two or three hours after that, I was already at a 9.5 and I had a cervical lip. Oh, in between that also– this is an important piece of information. These are things I want to forget so I forget to tell them. 

The doctor came in. He was coming in and out. This was probably at 12:30 or 1:00. He said, “Well, I have a dinner at 5:30 so we need to start pushing at 2:00.” I’m like, “Okay.” And he left. I didn’t know if it was a joke or if it was true but it turns out that he really had a family dinner at 5:30. It turns out that also I was ready and I was almost ready to push, but I was fully dilated by 1:30. That lip really went away. The midwife put me on my side and it was great. She was amazing. I wish everything would have happened just with her. 

I started pushing. The pushing phase was really weird to me because I was expecting it to feel good and they were like, “Okay, you’re ready to push. Do you want to push?” I was like, “I guess.” 

Meagan: Disconnected. 

Pat: Disconnected. Totally disconnected like, “What am I doing here? I don’t understand what’s happening.” I pushed for an hour or so. I asked for the mirror to see what was happening. That was cool but also got me a little bit discouraged because I could see the little advancement with the push. When I was more advanced or ready, they called the doctor. The baby was doing fine. He had a couple of moments where his heartbeat was taking a little longer to come back, so I could see my midwife calling the doctor, but he wasn’t concerned so we kept going. 

I think it was one hour into pushing that he came and turned on the lights, propped me up, changed the way I was pushing, and just sat in front of me with a boring face and said, “Okay, let’s see.” It was just not the kind of person you wanted there. 

Meagan: Impersonal, yeah. 

Pat: Yeah, really impersonal. He was also yelling at people like the nurses. He was in a really bad mood. Yeah. Everything was getting weird. I already had this weird feeling of, “What is happening?” I don’t know. I cannot really describe that but it was this fight or flight mode that you get when you’re birthing that makes your baby come. That’s what started happening to me. The thing is that I kept pushing and pushing and pushing and little by little, there was some progress. 

At some point though, he started to mention how he wanted me to get a little bit more of the epidural, but I talked to my doula and to my husband. I really wanted to feel what was happening, but then he kept going on about how if I had the epidural it was going to be better because he was going to have to stitch me and then, “Oh, that hurts a lot,” and then this and this and this. He kept going into my head. I really regret this, but I let him convince me and I got a little bit more of the epidural. 

At that point, all of the pressure disappeared. I could feel but yet I couldn’t feel as much. After that, when the epidural was already in, he said, “You know what? The head of the baby is coming in and out, in and out, in and out. What if I take a vacuum and I use in only just to hold the head of the baby in the same space in between contractions?” I had heard this on a birth story. It worked for the mother. This was two and a half hours into pushing so I said, “Yes, yes. Let’s do it,” because I could see in the mirror that that was true and that was happening. 

He put the vacuum on and they closed– I don’t know. I closed my eyes and when I opened them because everyone was telling me, “Open them. Open your eyes. The baby is coming.” He’s basically yanking the baby out of me. This is all how I felt that it happened. I’m sure the other side is different. This is where my problem comes with this VBAC and it’s just that I felt I was tricked into using an intervention that I didn’t want. The baby was born at 4:45 basically. 

Meagan: Right before dinner. 

Pat: The other thing is that he had the baby. The baby was crying. It was a boy which was super exciting to discover. He was pink and one of the other things I had told him was that I wanted that baby on my stomach. One of the things I missed in my other birth was the feeling of this high when they put the baby on your chest and he knew. I had told him so many times. He had the baby and he kept cleaning him up, cleaning him up, cleaning him up. I have a file of pictures where I’m holding out my hands to grab him and I retract them until I just snatched the baby out of him basically. 

Meagan: Give me my baby. Give me my baby. 

Pat: Give me my baby. Give me my baby. I breathed out this moment of rage and I could be present with my baby. I welcomed him and everything was great. From that moment on, nobody took him away from me. I held him and he felt so familiar. I felt like our family was complete. At least that feeling wasn’t taken away from me, just the joy of welcoming my baby. 

Everything in the postpartum was great, but I really struggled. I struggled a little bit. I don’t think it was depression but the baby blues were really hard on me for 2-3 weeks. I couldn’t stop crying all the time. I would remember my VBAC and I felt really guilty. I even remember the midwife, “You got your VBAC. You got your VBAC.” It was like, “Yeah, I got my VBAC.” I’m glad. I didn’t want a C-section, but this is not what I wanted. I feel so robbed. I feel robbed and it’s so bad of a feeling to have. 

Meagan: Yeah. You did. You got your VBAC. Everybody on the outside is like, “Yay. This is what you wanted,” but it was very traumatic getting there. It was really positive and then it took a spin and things happened to you that reflected not as positively. We’ve talked about this back when Julie and I were together too. You can be grateful for your vaginal birth after a Cesarean. You can be grateful for your CBAC, your Cesarean birth after Cesarean. You can be grateful for your birth, but that doesn’t mean you can’t grieve another experience or be upset. You don’t have to have one without the other. They can go together. Unfortunately, you have this space now where you’re like, “Yeah, I did, but I reflect differently than everyone might think.”

Pat: Yeah. I feel like all the work that I did, he just took it away from me because he was in a rush and it wasn’t necessary. 

Meagan: Yeah, I’m so sorry. 

Pat: I’m processing it. You can focus on the positive things, but it’s not great. 

Meagan: Well, congratulations on your baby boy. 

Pat: Thank you. 

Meagan: But yeah, I think that’s something to note and it’s so hard. We as doulas here had a client who said the same thing, “I knew I didn’t want this. We went over this with you. We all went over it, but for some reason, I just went with what the doctor said.” It’s so hard not to. We are in this very vulnerable space and they have this way sometimes– I’m not going to say all the time– but projecting this, “You have to make decisions right now” or “You have to do this or this scary thing will happen.” 

I don’t think that they really realize how their speaking to us impacts us as birthing women, but it does. It does. The things they say and even like you said, he sat down and gave you a blank stare. “All right, let’s see what we can do here.” Just that right there takes away from someone’s space. Providers, doulas, if you are listening, anybody who is entering a birth space, please make sure that whatever is going on in your personal life, whatever is taking over at that moment, leave it at the door. I know it’s hard. I know it’s hard. As a doula, if there’s ever a situation where I have that, I might need to call my partner because if I can’t shut that off and join this beautiful space and hold space for my clients, then maybe I shouldn’t be there. 

It’s hard because these providers are just going to be there but we have to be mindful. We have to be more mindful of how we present ourselves, what comes out of our mouths, and again, the actions that are done to us because they impact us so much. So I’m sorry that that did happen and I’m sorry that along the way, you had to go back and forth in everything. I am happy for you but at the same time, I grieve with you. I feel you.

I am so sorry. So sorry, but congratulations at the same time. 

Pat: Thank you so much. I feel like you really understand. When I’m telling this story, not everybody understands why it hurt me so much. I feel that you and your community probably will understand. 

Meagan: Absolutely. We understand. We hear you. We feel you. We’ve been there. I really appreciate you and I know you are 10 months postpartum, but we’re still here. We’re still here to help you heal through this journey. 

Pat: Thank you so much.

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

Caylee joins us from Canada sharing her experience with two VBACs after a twin Cesarean birth. She also shares what it was like having cholestasis in all three pregnancies. Cholestasis is a liver condition that slows or stalls the flow of bile. Meagan and Caylee discuss in greater detail what cholestasis means during pregnancy, what symptoms can look like, and how it is diagnosed. 

One of Caylee’s most intense symptoms was incessant itching. She talks about how it affected her not only physically but mentally as well. 

While all three of her pregnancies were preterm births and her two VBACs were medically necessary inductions, Caylee advocated throughout her entire labors and was able to stay the course to achieve the vaginal births she knew she was capable of. 

Cleveland Clinic Article: Cholestasis of Pregnancy

American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology Article: Risk of Stillbirth in U.S. Patients with Cholestasis

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details 

Meagan: Hello, everybody. Welcome to the show. We have our friend, Caylee, with us and her little wee, tiny little newborn. 

Caylee: Hi everyone. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. Welcome to the show. How old is your baby? 

Caylee: He just turned 3 months. He was born a month early though. 

Meagan: Okay, 3 months and a month early. We are going to talk about why he was born a month early. You guys, today we are going to be sharing some stores and talking a little bit about cholestasis. This is something that we actually don’t have a lot about on the show. 

When you were listening, Caylee, did you? 

Caylee: I don’t think I’ve heard a single episode, yeah. 

Meagan: Did you hear about it in general on other platforms? Was it talked about?

Caylee: Not really, no. I found it online on Facebook. I’m in the ICP Care Facebook group and that’s super helpful. They are amazing in there and super knowledgeable, but yeah. It’s not very common. It’s quite rare. I think it’s 1 in 1000 women who end up getting it. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Caylee: So yeah. It’s not very well known about and even with providers, providers don’t know about it very well either. 

Meagan: Yeah. I think that can be part of the problem, right? Because we’ve got providers who don’t know a lot about it and then it can cause a little bit of a panic and then a lot of the times, it can cause Cesareans or lead, I should say, to Cesarean. We’re going to be talking about that today and sharing her stories. 

Meagan: But I do have a Review of the Week so I’m going to get into that and then turn the time over to cute Caylee. This is from Cori and it doesn’t say where it’s from. Somewhere in the universe, it is from. It says, “The VBAC Link is gold.” It says, “Of all of the things I did to prepare in pursuing for a VBAC after two C-sections, I think is one of the most important is that I was listening to this podcast. Hearing these stories and information from Meagan and Julie made the dive into learning about VBAC and birth in general so much easier. I was blessed with my VBA2C” so VBAC after two C-sections “with my sweet Brynne Lynn and I sincerely believe I wouldn’t have gotten to that point without this resource and the community. Thank you guys for all that you do.” 

Oh, that just makes me smile so much because this community– oh my gosh. I mean, Caylee and I were kind of just talking about this. Yes, Julie and I are here, but there is this community, this absolutely incredible community and all of the people coming forth to share their stories. And Caylee, you just said it yourself when you were like,  it’s like all of these people who came and shared these stories impacted you. 

Caylee: Yeah, totally. 

Meagan: Yeah, they are the reason. You are the reason right here. Caylee, you are the reason why what Cori said in this review is possible by sharing your stories, by coming in the community on Facebook and on Instagram and having these conversations and learning and also being vulnerable. There are so many times where I see posts where it’s the most vulnerable, genuine post and I can’t explain to you the outpouring of love that I see come in for this person from this community. The VBAC Link Community, just the VBAC community in general, oh my gosh. You are all amazing. Thank you so much and yes, if you want to join that community, check us out on Facebook at The VBAC Link Community. 

It is a private group. You do have to answer the questions to get in so just keep that in mind. If you are not answering questions, you might not be allowed in. And on Instagram, and of course, if you want to have a review that I could share for the Review of the Week, please do so. We would love that. 

Meagan: Okay, Caylee. Are you ready? I’m so ready. 

Caylee: I am ready, yes. 

Meagan: Awesome, I would love to turn over the time. 

Caylee: I don’t know where to start. Should we start by talking a little bit about cholestasis so that they understand the risks? 

Meagan: Yeah, I think that– well yeah, the risks, the symptoms, and then also how it can be missed and then how it can sometimes– well it kind of goes with the risk, but there are other things that can come in I should say from cholestasis and I actually even had a client myself, a VBAC client after two C-sections. She had cholestasis, preeclampsia, VBAC after two Cesareans, and was induced. 

Caylee: Wow, good for her. 

Meagan: Yeah, but preeclampsia, right? Okay, let’s talk about the things. So what are the symptoms that you one, may be experiencing, and two, that there may be that someone might not experience? 

Caylee: Yeah, so for me, it was intense itching mainly on the bottom of my feet and on the palm of my hands but I had it everywhere. I have scars on my ankles, up my arms, on my belly just from scratching. 

Meagan: From scratching? 

Caylee: Yes, incessantly. It’s an itch that you can’t really scratch. It’s in your blood that is making you so itchy so you can scratch all you want and it’s temporary relief but as soon as you stop, it’s like, oh. I broke down in tears so many times and had ice packs on my feet and on my hands while I was trying to sleep. 

Another symptom is darker urine output and some upper right quadrant pain. 

Meagan: Yes. Yeah. 

Caylee: Those are very common and some people also experience jaundice. 

Meagan: I was going to say yellowing, jaundice. Decreased appetite. 

Caylee: Yeah. You’re more likely to get preeclampsia and gestational diabetes. Yeah. 

Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. So nausea, feeling unwell, dark urine, lack of urine output which a lot of the time, dark urine is the beginning of that. Your kidneys are warning you and then you stop. Yeah. I had a client, not the one I was telling you about, but another client. She said that her bowels like her poop smelled really weird, like abnormal. 

Caylee: Yeah, I’ve heard that before too. 

Meagan: Yeah. That’s the first time when she was like– that was actually one of her first symptoms that she noticed. Thinking back, she was like, “Yeah, I guess I was kind of itchy, but I wasn’t itchy-itchy until later.” But that was one of the things where she was like, “I just thought I ate something weird.”

Caylee: Yeah. 

Meagan: A decreased appetite. Pain in your belly and your quadrants, jaundice, and of course, itching. Those are the main signs. 

Caylee: Itching. And the severity of the itching can vary greatly between cases so the first time, it was quite mild and then it progressively got worse throughout my pregnancies. That’s different for everyone who experiences that so if you have any itching, you should ask for LST’s and bile acid tests from your provider. 

Itching can also precede the bile acids rising and the elevated bile acids is what’s dangerous for the baby. It increases the risks in the baby where they might pass meconium before birth and also stillbirth risk goes up a lot if the bile acids are above 40. 

Meagan: Too high, yeah. 

So when you are pregnant, if you are having symptoms, definitely go in and get checked like she said. Get these tests. Then if you have cholestasis, if you test positive and things are looking like you have it, it is something that may increase extra testing and extra visits because you do want to keep a close eye on this. 

Again, like she said in the beginning, it’s really rare. Even right here, it shows on this link that I’m going to put in the show notes, it’s from the Cleveland Clinic, but it shows 1-2 in 1000 people during pregnancy will experience this. It’s pretty low, but it can be a serious thing. 

Also, I was going to ask you because I know my clients have in the past. They’ve been given some things to try and control, to minimize, to control, to lower things to try and continue pregnancy to a good, safe term stage. Were you given anything like that? 

Caylee: Yeah. I was put on a medication called Ursodiol. It helps lower bile acids to make it a little bit safer for the baby so you can continue. With my last pregnancy, they were very severe levels. They were over 100 so it was kind of touch and go there whether we could get him to 36 weeks or not. They were talking about inducing me at 34 weeks. 

We ended up opting for non-stress tests and biophysical profile ultrasounds just to keep an eye on him. 

Meagan: And he did well? 

Caylee: He was doing well. He had already passed meconium sometime before I was induced though at 36 weeks. It was time for him to come out. He was already in distress so it was good that we did end up taking him out at 36 weeks, but he did great. Really great. 

Meagan: Good. Good. That’s another thing I would like to drop in and note that if you do have cholestasis, it may be something that brings you to something like an induction that is earlier than expected. Obviously here, we’re going to share this story in just a second about VBAC and induction. It’s possible and totally doable, but that is a thing. 

Meagan: She’s mentioning bile. It is in the liver, right? Am I correct? It’s in the liver. 

Caylee: Yeah. 

Meagan: We don’t really know why. I don’t know why. Do we know exactly why it happens?

Caylee: They don’t. They think it’s something to do with pregnancy hormones and the placenta, but they don’t know for sure. It’s some sort of genetic factor as well, but no woman in my family who I know has had it. So I think it’s just something that can happen sometimes. 

Meagan: Yeah. I have heard the hormones like estrogen and progesterone can be too much in the body. 

So just to circle back around again, if you have had any of these symptoms or if you are having any of these symptoms, it’s okay. Don’t hesitate and go in and get checked out. 

Caylee: And if you go in and get a negative result and still have symptoms, ask your provider to keep testing you. 

Meagan: Yes. Go back and check again. 

Okay, so baby number one? 

Caylee: Twins. 

Meagan: Twins! 

Caylee: Baby one and two, my first pregnancy. 

Meagan: So twins. You had symptoms? 

Caylee: I did, yes. I got it pretty early on and they tested me and it was negative. They just put me on Ursodiol before anything came back positive. They didn’t do anymore testing or anything. I didn’t have any itching. The medication must have made it go away somewhat. Yeah. I was only 21 when I was pregnant with the twins so I was pretty young. I didn’t know much of anything. 

I knew I wanted a vaginal birth. I had actually switched providers in my third trimester to somebody who was comfortable with vaginal birth with twins and they ended up being breech when they decided they needed to take them out. 

It wasn’t due to cholestasis, but I did have them at 36 weeks because one of the twins had stopped growing so they took them out. 

Meagan: IUGR? 

Caylee: Yeah. Yeah. He was quite significantly smaller than his brother. 

Meagan: Okay. That can happen with twins too, I know. 

Caylee: Yeah, totally. Yeah. My twin A was 6 pounds, 7 ounces, and twin B was 4 pounds, 4 so it was quite a big difference. 

Meagan: Mhmm. 

Caylee: Yeah, so it was a C-section with them. We were in the NICU for two weeks. 

Caylee: I ended up getting pregnant again when the twins were 16 or 17 months old. I knew I did not want to do that again, having a C-section so I found supportive midwives and got on with them. Unfortunately, I don’t know if it’s in Canada, but they don’t allow home birth for your first VBAC for some reason. Maybe it was just those midwives, I don’t know, but I really wanted a home birth and they were like, “No, let’s do hospital. It’s safer.” I was like, “Okay, as long as I can still have my VBAC. I’ll just do that.” 

The pregnancy went well. I thought I wasn’t going to get it again. No itching, then I hit 34 weeks and the dreaded itching started again. I kind of had a feeling that I had it during my first pregnancy too from my own research. I had mentioned it to my midwives beforehand so we were looking for it seeing if it would happen. 

They sent me for testing right away at 34 weeks. It came back negative so they ended up testing me again weekly and then at 36 weeks, they tested me and my liver function tests were very high. My liver was basically failing and they didn’t even wait for the bile acids to come back. They just brought me in for an induction. 

Meagan: What week again? 

Caylee: I was 36 weeks and 2 days when they started my induction.

Meagan: Okay, so technically preterm. 

Caylee: Yes, yes. 

Induction

Caylee: When I went in, they started with a Foley balloon to help dilate my cervix and that was awful. It’s like a torture device, I swear. But it was effective I guess. It dilated me and then it fell out and I don’t know if they didn’t have a nurse for me or something, but I was waiting 8 hours for them to continue my induction. The OB came in and he wanted to break my water. I said, “No. Let’s start low Pitocin.” He was like, “Well, it’s not really going to do anything if you’re not going to break your water too.” I said, “Okay, let’s see how it goes.” 

Meagan: Yes. 

Caylee: We did that. Labor was going smoothly. I loved being in the shower. It was amazing. Then they made me get out because his heart rate was dipping really high so they wanted to get me out and be able to monitor him a little bit better. That’s when things got really intense and I felt like I wasn’t able to cope as well after I got out of the shower. 

I think in the back of my mind, I was still pretty young with him too for my first VBAC. I was only 24 and I know that uterine rupture risk is very low, but for some reason, I just couldn’t get that out of my mind and every contraction I’d have, I’d just feel like I was being ripped open and was so scared that I was having a uterine rupture. 

I ended up– it was 32 hours into my induction and I still was at 4 centimeters just because I wasn’t letting my body relax and do the work. I was tensing and fighting every contractions because I was terrified. I ended up getting an epidural at 1:00 AM and 5 hours later, I woke up and was fully dilated and pushed for 15 minutes and he came out. 

Meagan: 15?! 1-5? 

Caylee: Yeah, 1-5. 

Meagan: Oh my goodness. 

Caylee: As he was coming out, I pulled him up to my chest and it was just this amazing feeling like, Oh my god, I did it. The high that comes with that is unbelievable. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Caylee: I just kept looking at everyone saying, “I did it. I did it.” 

Meagan: Absolutely. 

Caylee: It’s an amazing feeling. 

Meagan: It really is. 

Caylee: I fought with the OB who was on call a little bit, the one who wanted to break my water. He kept saying, “Does she want to do this? Let’s just go for a C-section.” I’m like, “Yeah, I can do this all night long and he can stay out of my room until I’m pushing. My midwives have got this, thanks.”

Unfortunately, because I had to be induced, I had to be overseen by an OB so my midwife ran the show and was able to be with me and do everything, but he had to be there in case anything went wrong I guess. 

Meagan: That’s kind of normal. A lot of the times, when there is a hospital midwife, there are OBs who oversee them. 

Caylee: Yeah. Yeah. 

So yeah, that was my first VBAC, first induced VBAC. 

Second Induced VBAC

Caylee: I just recently had another induced VBAC. With this one, my levels went up high. I think it was 28 weeks that I tested positive so it was sooner. 

Meagan: Significantly sooner. 

Caylee: Yeah. They went from 0 to 100 within a matter of days. They put me on Ursodiol immediately as soon as it came back positive. I was being monitored weekly with NSTs, non-stress tests, and they were sending me for biophysical profiles as well weekly which is an ultrasound to check on the baby’s well-being. 

He was doing well so they just were keeping going with that and unfortunately, the Ursodiol did not help my itching this time around. It was so severe. I was in tears pretty much daily from the severity of the itching. Yeah. It was really bad this time. 

The mental health aspect of having that incessant itching I don’t think is talked about a lot either. It really gets to you. It’s depressing. 

Meagan: Oh, I would not do well with that. I would find myself getting very anxious probably and out of control. 

Caylee: Even now, if I get an itch, I get PTSD. It’s like, Oh my god. It’s not going to stop. I freak myself out and work myself up. I remember that after my second pregnancy as well. It was like I’d get a bug bite and I’d just have to itch and itch and itch until it was bleeding. Oh, it was just bad. 

I don’t know how to leave itching alone now. 

His levels were very severe, or my levels I guess. My liver function tests were some of the worst that my OB had ever seen. 

Meagan: Interesting. 

Caylee: So yeah, it was just really bad. 

Caylee: I had actually applied for midwives. We had just moved from Alberta for BC pretty much as soon as we found out we were pregnant with Henley here. I applied pretty much as soon as I found out I was pregnant for the midwives here. I ended up hearing back from the midwives in Edmonton which is an hour and a half away that they could see me up there but once I got the itching and cholestasis, I was like, “Just transfer me to an OB where I live. It’s just easier for me then all of my appointments will be out here and I don’t have to drive 1.5-2 hours to appointments in the middle of winter.” 

Yeah, so they scheduled my induction for exactly 36 weeks because of the high levels. They didn’t want me going past that because with levels over 100 bile acids, the stillbirth risk goes up very high after 37 weeks. 

Meagan: Did they give you a percentage or anything like that? 

Caylee: Yeah, I think it’s upwards of 15% with very severe levels. 

Meagan: Oh wow. 

Caylee: If levels stay under 40, your risk of stillbirth is around the same as anyone else's. They go up 3% over 40 and over 100, it’s even more. So it was a bit touch and go there. They were talking about inducing at 34 weeks and we were able to get to 36. Still preterm, but a higher likelihood that he wouldn’t need additional support. 

Induction

Caylee: I was induced at exactly 36 weeks. I actually had influenza B when I had to be induced. 

Meagan: That’s miserable. 

Caylee: As if labor isn’t hard enough alone, I had to have influenza B. It was great. 

Meagan: Miserable. Yes. 

Caylee: Yeah, one perk though was that we got a private room right away. I didn’t have to labor in triage until I was far enough along to get my delivery room or whatever. They put me right in there. I was able to get set up and feel like it was my space and get more comfortable. 

So yeah, they started with the Foley balloon again to open the cervix. They can’t do Cervadil or a few of the other cervical ripening– 

Meagan: Cytotec. 

Caylee: Yeah, because it really does increase the risk of uterine rupture with induction, but the Foley balloon is a safer option and it works. 

Within an hour and a half this time, my cervix was 4 centimeters. 

Meagan: Wow. 

Caylee: From barely a 1. It was kind of funny. I was standing there talking to my husband and I took a step toward the bathroom and it just flopped out and there was this line of blood up and down the floor. It was like a total bloody show. 

Meagan: Mucus. 

Caylee: In a perfect line. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. 

Caylee: Because they attach the tube to your leg. They tape it to your leg so when it falls out, it makes a long, smooth line. My husband pulled the nurse call button and she’s laughing. She ended up cleaning me up. 

Things picked up pretty quickly from there this time. I felt it was much more manageable though. I don’t know if the nurses were nicer this time and they were doing the Pitocin a bit slower because I remember with my first VBAC, the contractions just felt back to back like I wasn’t getting a break at all and it was really mentally wearing me out after 32 hours. I hadn’t slept. I ended up getting the epidural but this time, it felt like more of a natural progression. I don’t know. I’ve never had natural labor, but for me, I was able to handle it a lot better. 

Maybe that’s because I knew what to expect this time so it wasn’t as scary. 

Meagan: It could be. 

Caylee: Yeah, I don’t know. Or I’ve heard too that with cholestasis that the bile acids or something make Pitocin more effective so maybe I didn’t need as much of it this time because my levels were higher. I don’t know but it was much more peaceful this time and I knew what to expect even though I was sick. I labored in the shower for a little bit with the mobile monitor because with inductions, they want to be able to monitor the baby constantly which I know is talked about a lot on here as something that is not ideal. 

Meagan: Yeah. Even if no induction with VBAC, it’s really, really common if not 100% that your hospital is going to want that monitoring. 

Caylee: Yeah. And having that mobile monitor though is so helpful if your hospital has one of those. Definitely ask because oh my gosh, it’s so nice to be able to get up and walk around and move and shower. 

Unfortunately, because of the flu, we were battling a fever. I had a fever so as soon as my Tylenol would wear off, my fever would spike and then his heart rate would go up. I had an anterior placenta so it was kind of in the way of the monitoring and it was hard to get him constantly so they ended up wanting to do the electrode. 

Meagan: The IUPC and the FSC? 

Caylee: Yeah, I think so. It’s the one that they put on the scalp. 

Meagan: Okay, that’s an FSC, fetal scalp electrode. 

Caylee: Yeah, that unfortunately didn’t work very well. I was bed-bound but I was so sick that I didn’t even really care. I was just switching sides laboring through, using the gas. I loved the gas this time.

Yeah. I ended up getting to an 8, 8 centimeters and the OB unfortunately was not the OB who I had through my pregnancy. She had gone on vacation for my induction, unfortunately. I was really sad about that, but the OB on call came in and he was like, “You know, this is taking pretty long. I think it’s time that we start thinking about a C-section. I’m getting worried about your scar.” 

I’m like, “I’ve done this before and it took longer last time. I am not having a C-section.” 

Meagan: Good for you. 

Caylee: I don’t think he really liked that though because he was like, “Well, then you’re getting an epidural because at least if you have the epidural and something happens, we can rush you in and open you up faster,” and blah, blah, blah. 

I’m like, “It has to be at least 24 hours and it’s only been maybe 12 hours of hard, active labor here. My C-section scar is strong. It’s been over 7 years since my first C-section. We are both doing well. Yes, I’m sick. Yes, his heart rate keeps going up when we have a fever but when the Tylenol kicks in, his heart is going back down and his tracing is normal. Why would I have a C-section?” 

Meagan: The fact that you’re having a fever is more likely to the fact that you are sick versus that you have an infection.

Caylee: Yeah, exactly. They tested me when I got there and they knew that I had influenza B and I tested for Group B strep so I was just having to fight with another OB again which is really frustrating, but yeah. 

He ended up leaving the room and my doula and my nurse were both like, “Wow, you’re amazing. I’m actually so impressed with you saying no to him.” I guess a lot of people just go with what the doctor says. 

Meagan: Well, I guess. 

Caylee: That is why there are so many unneeded C-sections. 

Meagan: Well, we’ve talked about it on the show where it’s like, I didn’t go to years and years of medical school, so okay, I guess. Same thing with me, I was like, Okay, and went down and had a C-section when I completely did not need a C-section. 

Caylee: You hope that doctors are saying that when it is actually medically necessary and not when it’s convenient for them. I think he was getting like, It’s been 24 hours. I’m almost off-shift. I don’t know, but I was not having it. It was actually funny. When he texted me, he was like, Oh, you’re 8 centimeters, but he’s -2 position and not coming down. 

He was like, It’s probably time to do a C-section. 

I was like, “No, it’s not actually.” 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. He really wanted to do a C-section. 

Caylee: Yeah, so I was like, “No, I’m not having a C-section.” He ended up leaving the room and pretty much immediately, I had a super strong contraction. I jumped off the bed trying to get away from it because apparently, that can help. I kind of grabbed my nurse’s shoulders, the poor thing. She is this tiny, little 20-something nurse. I grabbed her shoulders and my body was pushing. 

I was farting and things were moving down there. 

Meagan: I bet that baby was coming down quickly too. 

Caylee: Yeah, that quick movement. Popping up just brought him down and she was like, “Are you pushing?” My doula was like, “Well, that’s a good sign.” 

I was like, “I don’t think so.” But my body was just doing it and then I barely made it back on the bed before his head was out. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. So was the provider even in there? 

Caylee: No. Nope, he was just leaving the room telling me that I needed a C-section because I wasn’t progressing. 

Meagan: I know that he had left but I didn’t know if she was beeping him back in like, “Come back in!”

Caylee: I guess he was down the hallway at that point and his head was out. I made it back onto the bed thankfully. My nurse was down there taking the fetal electrode out of his scalp panicking a little bit being a nurse. She was like, “You need to keep pushing.” I’m like thinking in my mind, No, I need to rest for a second. His head’s out. He’s fine. I knew in my soul that he was okay. I took half of a second to rest and then my body was pushing again and he was out. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. 

Caylee: He had the umbilical cord wrapped around his neck and his armpit. I thought that maybe was why he wasn’t coming down. 

Meagan: It could be. 

Caylee: Maybe he was tangled up in there a little bit and couldn’t come down fully but maybe that quick movement that I did to pop out of bed was just enough to let him come down. It was so quick. I was looking around. My doula ended up riding out into the hallway to call my OB back and my nurse was frantic. She was like, “This was my first baby I caught!”

Meagan: Aw, and it was a VBAC. 

Caylee: Yeah, yeah. I’m looking around the room like, “Whoa. What just happened?” I went from 5 minutes ago being told it was time for a C-section to my baby on my chest. 

Meagan: Yes. Oh, that is amazing. You know, maybe that person needed to leave to also relieve some stress so baby could come down. That’s another thought I had. 

Caylee: Yeah, I think that was it and maybe my baby was like, Yeah, we’re not going for surgery, mom. Let’s show this OB what’s up. 

Meagan: Yeah, seriously. It reminds me– is it the tiger or the lion? I can’t remember the thing, but when you are being chased or when you are in a hostile environment, you either tense up or you run or whatever. We’ve got all of these senses and you could have been like, Nope. I am not having this baby with you in this room. I’ve had enough of your C-section talk. So cool. 

So after, with all of the babies, but especially with this one because your levels were so bad, were there any complications? 

Caylee: I guess I did touch on this a little bit before. I forgot though during my birth story there, when they broke my water, because I did allow it earlier this time because I felt with my first VBAC that that actually helped speed things up a little bit. I did allow them to break my water and start Pitocin at the same time this time. 

When they broke my water, it was full of meconium. They weren’t too worried about it. Thankfully, that OB seemed pretty C-section happy and he was still like, “Oh, no big deal. We’ll just monitor him. It’s okay. There is a risk there for aspiration, but it’s not a total risk that that will happen.” 

So they were just monitoring that. 

When he came out, he was fine for being 36 weeks. He was breathing good. They wiped his face because there was the meconium on his face, but no. He was great. It was more me that I was worried. I was like, “Is he okay?” They were like, “He’s fine.” 

Meagan: Good. That’s so good to know. I was just curious because he was early, high levels, induction, fevers, all the things so that’s so good to hear that he was really great. 

Caylee: Mhmm, yeah. Even my twins were 36 weeks, 2 days when I had my C-section. They were in the NICU for 2 weeks and that was just for feeding and growing. They didn’t know how to suck and then with my now 5-year-old, he was totally healthy when he came out too. He was 36+4 at the time he was born because my induction took so long with him, but yeah. He was healthy. He did have jaundice quite badly though so he needed the bilirubin lights and then with my baby now, he also had jaundice but he was able to stay off of the lights. He was just under that level for needing phototherapy. That’s pretty common with early babies anyway. I don’t know if that had anything to do with cholestasis in general or if that was just them being early that it was more likely to happen.

Meagan: Yeah, that makes sense. Oh, well thank you so much for sharing your story and talking more about cholestasis with us. Like you said, there is not a lot out there. It is not very common so it makes sense that it is not talked about that often. However, uterine rupture isn’t very common but it is talked about all the time. 

Caylee: Yeah. 

Meagan: So you know, but it’s good. It’s good to be aware. It’s good to understand the symptoms and what’s going on and why so I’m so grateful that you shared your stories. I’m so grateful that everyone is healthy and happy and wonderful and you are smiling and have some good birth experiences and maybe some healing birth experiences. 

Caylee: Yeah, totally. 

Meagan: You showed yourself that you could stand up to pressuring doctors. 

Caylee: Yes. I honestly thank my doula for being there for my last birth because I don’t know if I would have had the confidence to be that firm with such a pushy, “this is what’s going to happen” doctor. We had talked about it previously that she can’t say anything for me but that she will be there to support and give me the power to advocate for myself. I totally felt that power from her. She was amazing. 

I’d like to shout her out to Little Loves Doula in Red Deer. She was amazing. Stephanie, she’s great. If anyone is in Red Deer, Alberta, definitely contact Stephanie from Little Loves. 

Meagan: Well, you know that we love doulas here and always encourage checking out a doula. We do have VBAC Link-certified doulas. She’s got her doula. Yeah. 

Caylee: I think she was also VBAC Link certified. 

Meagan: Was she or is she? 

Caylee: Yeah. 

Meagan: That’s so awesome. You can check out The VBAC Link doulas at vbaclink.com/findadoula. Let me tell you, it’s so fun to see all of the doulas in all of the different states. We are growing within the States. And if you have a doula in mind who is not on the VBAC list, send them the link. We would love to have them and have them support our VBAC clients and our VBAC community. Thank you so much again. 

Caylee: Thank you. 

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

“I knew I was having a daughter this time. I was like, ‘I’m going to approach this as the model that I want her to have. I want her to know that she is empowered to make whatever choices she needs to in life and I need to practice that now.’”

Though Heather’s two birth outcomes were very different, the most inspiring part is what Heather fought for within herself. Heather went from knowing she had a voice and being afraid to use it to knowing her voice and making sure it was heard. 

In the depths of depression and anxiety, Heather continued to be proactive and choose healing. Through vulnerability, therapy, patient advocacy, medication, and staying attentive to her needs, Heather’s second postpartum experience was drastically better than the first. 

Additional Links

Heather's Website

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Meagan: Welcome to The VBAC Link, guys. This is Meagan, your host, and today we have our friend Heather. She is from Kentucky and she is sharing her amazing story. One of the highlights of her story that we’re going to be talking about is postpartum depression which is something I’m really excited to talk more about because postpartum in general and Heather, maybe you would agree, I feel like it’s even more sometimes in preparing for a VBAC because we’re so hyper-focused on the birth and having this vaginal birth and avoiding a Cesarean and all of the interventions. I mean, really. We’re just so hyper-focused that we forget what comes after. 

Not just recovery after, but mentally and physically. All of the things, and so I’m really excited that you are going to touch on this today and I already want to thank you for your knowledge because I’m excited to hear what you have to say. 

Okay, I have a review of the week and then we’re going to go into it. Does that sound good? 

Heather: Great. 

Meagan: This is actually a review of The VBAC Link course. This is from Ashley and she says, “TOLAC/VBACs should be treated just like any other birthing person but there is a certain preparation and information that needs to be offered to them and this course covered that. The value is held in your careful recognition of how to best support our clients who are doing a TOLAC.” I’m assuming Ashley is reviewing the doula course in this one. She says, “I cannot praise you two enough for the fear release activity. Honestly, it is something I can apply to even myself before and after birth and even in life in general. Thank you for that. It has already helped three of my VBAC clients.” 

Even starting right there talking about processing and fear release before going into birth can ultimately help us in our postpartum stages. 

Heather: Absolutely, yeah. That’s a big part of, I think, what I was working through in my second pregnancy. 

Meagan: Okay, well then let’s turn the time over to you. 

Heather: Well thank you so much. I’m really humbled to be here today. I’ve heard so many amazing stories and I wasn’t sure that mine was really amazing enough, but I really just feel so strongly that talking about postpartum depression is important even now, even five years out of recovering still that I just really want to be there to help others who need that light. 

Meagan: Absolutely. 

Heather: All right, so I got pregnant with Theo in 2017. We made the decision in March and literally the weekend I had my birth control out, we looked at each other, and bam. We were pregnant. 

Meagan: Oh no way. 

Heather: So I was like, “Oh my gosh. This is amazing. Oh my gosh. I’m terrified.” I had no chance to really start processing this. I was still weaning down from my depression medication. I had been in treatment for depression a few years prior. I had been out of it but still on medication. I was feeling good. I was feel pretty stable. I thought going off of my medication was going to be great. 

So we find ourselves pregnant and oh man, that pregnancy was hard. I was sick. I was exhausted. I’m a performing musician and teacher of music, so I was getting through my days with little kids and getting to gigs and driving and throwing up in the car on the highway. 

Meagan: Oh, bless your heart. 

Heather: I’m still processing this whole, “Wow. Our lives are going to change.” I was really excited too, obviously. I was really happy to be starting this but we were really apprehensive heading into that. I was due Christmas Day that year, so starting in November, we started getting serious about birth prep. We did a very comprehensive birth course. I was seeing midwives for my care during that pregnancy and I thought they were just really great. They had the same view I did. I was really happy with the care I was receiving. It was very encouraging and just like, “Whatever it is that you want, we will get this for you.” 

The hospital I was going to deliver in had nitrous. It had one room with a tub. It had showers in every room. It had obviously the epidural and the IV meds. I felt good about the options, although something inside of me really wanted a more natural kind of experience. I think looking back, I really did want a home birth, but I was scared and it’s expensive, so this is the direction that we went in. 

Our birth prep, like I said, was very comprehensive and on top of that, I was reading books. I was making sure that I was informed in case of a Cesarean. I knew about the cascade of interventions and coping with contractions and stuff. 

We got to the end of that video class and oh my gosh. So they do this, “Congratulations. You’re going to have a baby.” I was just like, “Oh my god.” I was terrified. To be perfectly honest, my husband wasn’t much better. It was about another four weeks before I actually went into labor since that moment and it was an exciting time. I got through 39 weeks at work and then I stepped back because as an organist, I wasn’t going to be playing the day before my due date. 

My due date came and went and he didn’t come. I was very thankful for that because as an organist, I did not want to have a baby on Christmas Eve. Christmas Day would have been preferable frankly. 

Meagan: I was going say, did you guys have performances at all? So you took a step back but did you have Christmas stuff at all? 

Heather: I had backed off by the week before Christmas. 

Meagan: Oh that’s so nice. So you completely stopped. 

Heather: Yes. So 39 weeks on, I was on maternity leave. I had some Braxton Hicks, nothing really, not moving too much. I got to 40 weeks. My mom came. 40+1, we go for a walk. 40+2 I think is when I had my next appointment with my midwife who was one of the two midwives I had seen in the office and she was the one who actually was still doing hospital deliveries so we were like, “Okay, let’s get in to see her a few more times in case I possibly see her,” which I did. 

We decided to do a stretch and sweep. It kind of went. It was possible. I was pretty high and closed and stuff, but I think the sweep worked. I didn’t really experience much from that. My mom was like, “Well, I’m going to go see my sister in the other state,” so we had some space again which was really nice to have. 

Thursday that week, I go to my massage guys who are also acupuncturists and I was like, “Get this baby out of me.” They were wonderful people. They are not prenatal or anything. One of them is from India and he was like, “So your baby is a little bit over here and is not pushing on your cervix.” He just lightly touched my belly and it was so gentle. Then I had some acupuncture and they left me to chill. 

Then Friday comes the next day and that evening, I just had a sense. I was like, “Hmm.” I don’t know. I was just feeling this. So that night, I went to bed on the couch downstairs. My husband was upstairs. I woke up around 3:00 or 4:00 AM and I’m like, “Yeah. I’m having contractions.” I was like, “Okay, early labor. I’ve got to rest.” So I went and crawled into bed with my husband and that was just a no-go. It was too painful. 

I pretty quickly got out of there. Mostly, I would labor bending over, leaning over something. We did lots of different places. I was at home for a good 7-8 hours probably. I was feeling pretty good in early labor there. I just had some food, keeping it light. My husband was packing his bag because of course, he hadn’t packed ahead of time. 

I guess contractions probably started around 4ish. I took a bath. I know you’re not supposed to slow them down, but I was like, “I need to rest.” 

Meagan: This is the thing with taking a bath. I don’t want to say full-blown labor like you’re not in labor at all, but if it’s going to progress, it’s going to progress and water’s not going to stop it. If your body responds by slowing down and taking a break, that’s probably what it needed. 

Heather: Yeah. It still continued. He would put Netlifx shows on for me. He’d put stuff on for me. I’d be breathing through the contractions. After the bath, I guess shower, then bath. I don’t really know. I started having to moan through contractions and they started, “Okay. I’m doing my low breathing. I’m feeling good.” I was feeling like, “Okay. I’ve been prepared so far.”

Around 11:30-noonish, things started changing and I started getting antsy and anxious. Contractions started coming much closer together. It was probably about three minutes apart. They’d been a minute long for hours at that point, so we knew that we were really in labor. I was definitely starting to get that worry, that anxiety going then. It was like, “We’re not at the hospital.” We weren’t far from the hospital, but I was like, “We need to get there.” 

I remember I was using the bathroom and laying down was a no-go. The toilet was absolutely excruciating. It was really intense when I hit a contraction. My dear, sweet husband comes and jokingly brings me something to put on that was lacey underwear or something like that. I was like, “You just do this. We need to go.” I was not having any of it at that point.

So it was like, “Okay. We’re definitely ready to go.” We got in the car probably at about 12:30 and we head to the hospital. Man, the car ride contractions were not fun. I’m going, “Ohhh.” I start going, “We’re going to have a baby.” 

Meagan: All the emotions. 

Heather: All the emotions. I mean, it was funny but it was also like, I was starting to become a little unhinged there. I had gotten out of my safe, comfortable, “I’m in a space. I’m in a zone.” Looking back on it, I realize now that I was starting to experience back labor. That was still a whole extra level of, “Oh my god. I’m not prepared. This is really intense.”

We got there. I insisted on walking the whole way. 

Meagan: Probably good for you though. 

Heather: That’s what I was thinking. I was like, “I don’t want to have interventions. I want to get there as late as possible so I’m going to walk.” Every 30 feet, we were stopping to moan through things. We go to where we think triage check-in is and it’s moved because they were doing work. So we were standing there and my husband’s calling the midwives to come from across the hall. It was ridiculous, but the midwife was like, “Let’s get you a chair.” I didn’t really want it, but they could tell that I was in labor. 

I get to triage and they check me and I was 5 centimeters. I was so excited. I was a first-time mom. I’m halfway there. This is awesome. I’m freaking out though. So I’m freaking out and I’m there and okay. It’s time to admit me. I knew my preferences. I knew in my heart what I wanted and I didn’t ask for that. 

Meagan: You can’t say it probably right? 

Heather: Yeah. I thought, “I want a water birth. I want to ask for the tub room, but what if I don’t end up doing a water birth and I’m occupying it and I’m taking it from somebody else?” All these I would say people pleaser things came in. I was like, “You know, I want to get in the shower. I want to labor back in the shower,” but I was starting to shake. I was getting scared. I was getting more and more scared and just feeling out of control. 

So I was just like, “I’m progressed enough. I want an epidural,” even though I knew I didn’t really want an epidural. I was having this back labor. I had been laboring for a long time. I was 40+5 and I was tired. You’re not sleeping well by that point. 

The midwife was great. She was supporting me. She was applying back pressure and a lot of tailbone pressure, especially with the back labor and it was really helpful, but I eventually got the epidural. The first one didn’t take. They did another one immediately and that one only half worked. They put me on my left side because I could feel my contractions all the way down my left thigh. It was really, really intense. The medicine worked that way. I guess we got some sleep. A few hours later, they come to move me to my right side. A few hours later, they move me so I’m sitting with my legs and knees out. That was all they moved me. 

I couldn’t really move. Over the course of having to move, the epidural definitely started wearing off on my left side again. Then shift change happens around 8:00 PM and the midwife that I had been seeing comes on. I was so happy. I was so happy to have her because she was wonderful. She comes in and the room is dark. She checks me and I’m complete. Well, I’m almost complete. She’s like, “there’s a bulging bag of water. We could break them and start pushing or hold off on pushing. What do you want to do?” 

That voice inside again says, “I want to labor down. I want to have some time to really feel the urge to push,” but baby was having some heart irregularities, so I was like, “Well, then let’s go ahead and break my waters. We’ll start pushing.” Even though in my mind, that really wasn’t what I wanted. 

Meagan: Your intuition it seemed like so far has been saying one thing, but then your voice said something else. Your mind talks you into something else. 

Heather: Absolutely. I think that’s really the motif throughout that whole labor. My intuition was in one way and what I was agreeing to and saying I was okay with was another. My midwife was very great. She wasn’t pushy, but having a baby who has nonreassuring heart tones, not dangerous yet was like, “Okay. I’ve got to consider this as well.” So on one hand, I wasn’t thrilled to be accepting breaking my waters, but I wanted to know that he was in a good position. I didn’t know it was a he, but I wanted to know that baby was in a good position, but the labor nurses were like, “Oh yeah. Baby’s ready. Baby’s ready.” 

Meagan: And you don’t really know about back pain at this point. You kind of maybe do because it’s half working, but you’re not feeling it the way you were feeling it so you couldn’t even really identify where he was at. 

Heather: Yeah, exactly. I’m a first-time mom. 

Meagan: You don’t know what you don’t know. 

Heather: No, you don’t. We start pushing and they were pretty good about letting me push on my sides and on my back. They would turn me to my left side and I would push. They would turn me to my right side. I would push. I did a lot of pushing on my back which was probably where the more effective pushing was happening. 

At this point, my temperature has been climbing so that was one of the reasons why my midwife wanted to break my waters was because my temperature had climbed a bit. She said, “Sometimes with an epidural, that can happen but if it keeps going and it becomes a fever then we know that it’s not the epidural and it’s an infection.” I’m thinking, “Okay, then we’ve got to get this baby out.” 

I’m pushing and an hour goes by. My husband is watching me get sicker and sicker. My temperature finally breaks into a fever around 9:30-9:45 PM. By this point, I definitely have a fever. Baby’s heart is not tolerating it well and I’ve not made much progress in pushing. So my midwife starts consulting with the obstetrician who is overseeing her who comes in and she says, “We need to get this baby out. Our options are C-section and vacuum.” 

I’m like, “Well, I definitely don’t want a C-section.” So she goes off to get ready for the vacuum. Now, she doesn’t feel that she can do the vacuum because I guess she had an injury or something so she goes and gets the other obstetrician that night to go and do the vacuum. So they’re back ten minutes later. I’m still pushing. I’m still feeling it. My epidural has worn off even more by this point so I’m really feeling the contractions and feeling them build. I’m working with them. I’m feeling like that was a good experience. I appreciated having that knowledge especially when into my second birth. 

I didn’t really know much about a vacuum. I figured, “Oh, it might be assisting in pushing. I’d push a bit.” They’d assist the baby out over a period of time is what I was expecting. After a couple of pushes with the vacuum, the obstetrician who had come on, not the one who was doing the vacuum but the other one, says, “I’d like to do an episiotomy. Is that okay?” I said, “No. I do not want an episiotomy.” We push again. 

The next contraction after that, she’s like, “Okay. I need to do an episiotomy. You’re going to tear anyway.” I talked to my husband and I was like, “Okay, fine.” 

Meagan: Oh, love. I love you and you’re not alone where you’re like, “Fine. I just want this baby out.” 

Heather: Yeah. I didn’t really understand that that was coercion at the time. 

Meagan: Yeah, because you are vulnerable. 

Heather: So vulnerable. I was sick. I had a fever. 

Meagan: I was going to say that you didn’t feel well probably. 

Heather: No, my husband was seeing me get sicker and sicker like I said. By this point, it’s probably about 10:00 PM. I’ve been pushing for over two hours. I have a fever. I just consented to something that I really didn’t want going into it. The next contraction comes and I’m feeling all of this movement down there. I’m thinking, “Oh my god. He’s out.” They’re like, “Vacuum just popped off for the third time and we can’t do it anymore.” I’m like, “What?!”

Meagan: At this point, they had done the episiotomy. 

Heather: Yeah. They hadn’t told me that it had popped off at all. I didn’t know where we were in that process. 

Meagan: There was no communication. 

Heather: There was not that communication. It was just, “You’re going to tear anyway.” A certainty. “You’re going to have this baby vaginally and you’re going to tear so you need an episiotomy.”

Meagan: So you made the decision with the understanding that this baby was then going to come. 

Heather: By that point, we really had no choices. I was pretty sick. I could feel the contractions. I wanted baby out. 

Meagan: Yeah. You just want it to be over. 

Heather: My midwife was there the whole time. She helped coordinate getting my husband to the OR. They turned up my medicine. They wheeled me down. She brings him in after they’ve determined that I’m numb enough which I almost wasn’t. This is the OB who cut me and that’s who she is. When I talk in conversation about my birth, that’s where my mind goes and that’s really what was like, “Wow. That was obstetric violence. She cut me.” 

I just can’t process it any other way. She almost put me under because they had to numb me and she thought it was an emergency. In my mind, I’m hearing her say to the anesthesiologist, “If the next time, she’s not numbed, we’re going to have to put her under.” My mind is going, “No. Don’t let me. Tell them no. Tell them you do not consent to go under.” Fortunately, they didn’t put me under, but the medicine was high. My husband was there next to me and my midwife was there as a support person. They performed the C-section and my midwife was like, “Do you hear that baby crying? That’s your baby.” That was beautiful. It really was. 

We didn’t know the sex, so she brought my husband over to the warmer where he was and he came back. He whispered in my ears, “You have a son,” which was a really beautiful moment too. They bring Theo over and I get to kiss him a little bit. I can’t really hold him. I want to ask if I can hold him, but I don’t. But I also just needed to sleep at that point. He was born at 10:38 PM and I had been going since 4:00 AM so I was exhausted. 

They take him away. Apparently, he was having some breathing issues so I sent my husband with him. They went to the nursery together. I want to back up and say though that while we were having this C-section discussion, the one thing I asked for was delayed cord clamping. That was the one thing and the OB said no. In my mind, I’m thinking, “Can I ask for a clear drape? You want a clear drape. Ask for this.” I knew the things that I could ask for. I didn’t though. I had already just said no to an episiotomy. I just had one anyway. I had just been told no to delayed cord clamping. I think I was just almost out of fight. 

Meagan: Well, yeah. Like I was saying earlier, it’s to the point where sometimes in labor, we want to use our voice but we can’t. We’re using it in our heads, but we can’t get it out. It’s just this weird thing. I could probably see you too just being like, “I give up. Everything I did want, I’m being told no, or the opposite has happened to me.” 

Heather: Yeah. That was something I really had to process through. Where was that voice? Where was I? Where were we working together and where were we not working together my voice and me? But he goes to the nursery and because I had developed an infection, they wanted to get him an IV and antibiotics as well. He was there for a long time. I was alone in recovery. At that point, I was like, “I just want to sleep.” At one point, my midwife and the obstetrician came in to have a talk afterward. What I remember from that talk was basically like, “You have a small pelvis. You have an incision where you could have a VBAC, but I think your pelvis is too small.” I was just like, “That sounds ridiculous.”

Meagan: Yeah. You’re like, “I know better. I know better.”

Heather: I knew better. I knew better. I knew that was ridiculous. Even in recovery, I felt like I timed out because of the fever more than anything and I timed out also because I didn’t have a lot of movement going on. There was no continual positioning during labor. I had been born via C-section. I was OP. That had been in the back of my mind in preparation. I was like, “I’m going to help this baby get into good positions.” I knew the positions to help me. I knew these things and I still ended up with a C-section. 

The hospital stay, unfortunately, was not better. I finally met him and got to hold him at about 3:00 or 5:00 AM. I’m not sure. It was a really long separation and that was a really hard separation to come to terms with. When he finally came into the room with my husband, we tried breastfeeding and it didn’t really work. He didn’t latch and then we just went to sleep. The lactation consultants came around the next morning. They were fantastic. We started getting a latch. We diagnosed him with tongue and lip ties. We got those revised and then breastfeeding was off to a much better continuation. 

The next day, so I went into labor and had him on a Saturday. Sunday was New Year’s Eve so we got to look out over the city and see the fireworks. Monday, I had this rash all over my body. We were like, “What is this?” It was particularly around my incision and my belly, but it seemed to be everywhere. We were like, “What is this?” It didn’t seem like PUPPPS. It wasn’t just in stretch marks. It was like, “Maybe it’s the antibiotics.” 

Meagan: The sutures?

Heather: “Maybe it’s something you’re wearing. Maybe it’s the sutures. We don’t know.” I had part of my thyroid removed a year prior and I actually had an allergic reaction to the surgical prep. I was like, “Maybe it was the surgical prep.” It wasn’t. We don’t know what it was but they gave me Benadryl. I was like, “Great.” It made me tired. My baby was constantly trying to breastfeed. I was also on medicine for the infection and pain which was just horrendous. That pain was worse than back labor for me. That was almost the most traumatic was trying to walk the day after. It got better quickly for me. I was very fortunate, but it was really scary getting out of bed the first few times. Like really scary, I was in so much pain. 

So yeah. The Benadryl didn’t really help. The next day, I asked for more because I was still itching and the nurse was like, “It can make your milk dry up.” I was like, “What? I’m not doing that.” We got home eventually and it was just really hard. He very much wanted to be held all of the time. We weren’t sleeping. I felt like breastfeeding wasn’t going super well. We got to my two-week appointment and I saw my midwife who had been there in the birth and I mean, she was wonderfully empathetic. She was just like, “How are you?” I was like, “I am not well. This is not going well. This has been really hard. He’s not gained weight.” 

She asked me what did we want to do about it? I was really lucky in that the practice and the hospital in general had a licensed clinical social worker attached to it, so I could go to the same place and see this therapist. She was a specialist in postpartum and prenatal counseling and just maternal and child psychology. At two weeks, I was like, “Okay. I want to talk to her.” I went to that probably a week later and I just cried for an hour. I just cried. I talked about the C-section and the episiotomy and about how I was pumping at that point but he wasn’t gaining weight and how this was hard. 

She just listened the whole time. I was like, “Wow. I just cried for an hour.” She was like, “Is that a good thing or a bad thing?” I was like, “I think it is a good thing. I needed this.” 

Meagan: Sometimes you need those releases. 

Heather: Yeah, the release was really important. I was seeing a lactation consultant. I was triple feeding so I was feeding, pumping, and supplementing. We get to, I guess, his one-month appointment and he’s passed birth weight. He’s doing well. I went back to the lactation consultant who was like, “Keep triple feeding.” I was like, “I can’t do this,” so I just started to listen to my intuition on that. By that point, yeah. He was gaining weight well. 

A few weeks later, I go for my six-week appointment and I still was not myself. At that point, I decided to go back on medication. We found something that was breastfeeding-compatible and I felt comfortable doing that. I knew that I needed to take care of myself and that antidepressants were definitely going to be the next step. I would say after I got on antidepressants, I stabilized for a while. There were a good few months there where I was continuing with therapy. We were dealing with a lot of, “Okay. I still have a newborn. I’m still exhausted. I’m adjusting to motherhood,” but just other things in life were coming up. Like I said, I felt like my mood was pretty stable. 

At about six months postpartum, somebody in my close circle had a pretty decent vaginal birth and I was really happy for her, but oh my gosh. I just fell apart. I dove right back down into depression. I showed up at therapy the next week and I was just like, “I’m so happy for her,” and was just crying. Again, I don’t know where this is coming from. That’s when we started the next step in processing the trauma. 

Since my therapist was attached to the hospital system, and since she had the specializations that she did, we were able to go through all of my labor notes. For those appointments, I asked my husband to be there for me as well, so we went together. We went through those over the course of a few sessions. We really dug into some of that. I remember going through the notes around the fever and pushing and I was like, “Yeah. I really did need that C-section.” That definitely helped me take another step forward, but at that time also, my therapist was like, “Just so you know, there are other avenues for discussing this.” 

That’s when she told me about the patient advocate at the hospital. I didn’t know about patient advocates, but my therapist was like, “She’s really great. She’s not just there to prevent lawsuits or malpractice suits. She will be there. She’ll be emotionally there for you. You call her and she’ll set up a meeting with the doctors and head of obstetrics and neonatology if you want.” So that was something that I decided that I wanted to do. It took me a few weeks definitely because it’s still something very close to my heart. It was still very hard. It was just hard to make the call. 

I think just making space for ourselves when we find ourselves in a place where there’s another step forward, but it’s still hard. It’s just so important. 

Meagan: It’s hard to make those steps. 

Heather: It is. You can feel like you know it’s what you want to do and you can still give yourself the time until it’s really right. But I made the call and in September we had the meeting. It turns out that the doctor who had cut me was no longer at the hospital. 

Meagan: Oh uh-uh. 

Heather: It may have been because of her attitude. I can neither confirm nor deny, but I did meet with the head of obstetrics who was actually performing the vacuum and assisting in the C-section. That meeting, I went into it and I wanted to ask about the fever. I wanted to ask about the infection like, “How does this happen? Did I do anything? Should I not have taken a bath that morning?” The doctor was like, “These things happen and you can’t control them and all we can do is make the best choices that we can make.” And then I brought up with her the episiotomy and I said, “That was not okay. I should not have been pressured into that. This hospital needs to know and the doctors need to know that all around, this was not okay and this should not have happened.”

She said that they have trainings and there’s one coming up and that she was going to use this scenario in the trainings. That was really powerful for me to hear that they were going to talk about it in whatever way they did. It was really important for me to speak out and say, “This was not okay. This happened. It should not have happened that way,” but then also to have the doctor hear me and agree with me really did help. 

The meeting was also interesting. She said, “We would be happy to do pre-pregnancy counseling. We could do a VBAC calculator.” I didn’t know about that and was like, “Okay.” I also said, “I think this hospital should have more access to clear drapes, and women in my position should be offered these things, not just expected after all of what we’ve been through to ask for these things. This seems like a basic thing that we can do to be more mother-baby centric.”

Meagan: It’s minuscule to make such a big impact. It’s a minuscule thing that changes someone’s experience so much and I love that you brought that up. I love that. 

Heather: Yeah, so this was back in 2018. I brought that up. I was like, “This could have been and I think this would have helped.” Neonatology was not at that meeting. They were unable to be there, but the head of neonatology did give me a call a few weeks later and she was lovely to talk to. She said, “I was reviewing your notes.” The obstetrician in the patient advocate meeting had not reviewed my notes. I had really hoped that she would have. But neonatology and I went over the notes for Theo and it turns out that he was in more distress than I had believed at birth. 

I also think that I just was like, “My baby is going to be fine.” Babies have trouble breathing sometimes. That’s why we have an umbilical cord. That’s why I wanted delayed cord clamping for a little bit of a buffer. But the care that he received was important. She just reaffirmed that getting the mom and baby together is really important from the get-go for us. We do value that and you are right to bring that to our attention, but we will continue this value. 

I got a lot of closure from all of those meetings. I definitely understood all of the medical things that had gone on better. It didn’t solve my depression. I’m still in therapy to this day, but it really helped turn the page. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Heather: So fast forward to about a year ago, December 2021. I had even written that in my notes. I can’t do the math. 

Meagan: The years are blowing by so fast. 

Heather: It’s going by so fast and my daughter is in a sleep regression. It’s just great. We were starting to finally feel like we had our feet underneath us. We moved states. We got settled in another place near my parents which has been great and we were like, “Okay. We want to grow our family.” So that December, we decided to start trying, and two weeks later–

Meagan: Did you look at each other? Yep.

Heather: Yeah. Yeah. Two weeks later. From my last menstrual period, I was three weeks pregnant and I was like, “How am I getting a pregnancy test positive already?” I was terrified. I was like, “What is up with us? We are never taking risks. This is just too freaky.” Yeah. We got pregnant right away. So right away, I’m like, “Oh. But I have all of this trauma that is resurfacing.” 

My son was born at the end of December which means that the really hard postpartum was right during my first trimester which was hard again. I was very sick. I was resting a lot but it was also a different feel because we were so much better as a team this time. We were so much more open about how we were feeling. We were more excited. We knew that we knew more this time. But it was still an adjustment getting used to being pregnant again. 

I definitely had some anxiety and I don’t usually have much anxiety. Going into my first provider appointment, I was so scared. I really was not looking forward to being in prenatal care again because of my experiences before. So because we got pregnant so fast, I didn’t know exactly where I wanted to go, but I knew I wanted midwives again because I just did not feel safe with obstetricians. I went with what ended up being a community clinic for anybody. Anybody can go and it’s price-capped, etc. It’s a rotating group of people who provide the care. 

It just so happened that the first time I went there, I met with one of the midwives so I thought, “Okay. I’ll be seeing midwives.” I didn’t really know how they assigned people. The midwives were good. From the first appointment, she asked me what I wanted to do for birth and I said that I wanted a VBAC. My second appointment a month later, I was like, “But I have really bad tailbone pain, so maybe I do want a repeat Cesarean.” A few months later, I was like, “Nope. I definitely want a VBAC.”

I started preparing for it. I did some more courses online learning more about VBAC. That’s when I got introduced to the Facebook community, The VBAC Link Facebook Community which was really great. I started really digging into that towards the end of my second trimester. I will say, unlike my first pregnancy, my second trimester was lovely. I really had a good time. I was taking medication for nausea which never went away again, but because I had it managed, I was able to enjoy and move a lot more this time. I did a lot of pregnancy yoga and pilates. That was really lovely. It really helped me feel more in charge and in control of that aspect at least. 

Towards the end of my second trimester, I was like, “Jake, I really don’t want an epidural. I really think that is the whole reason why I had the fever in the first place. What I’m learning now is that epidurals can cause fevers.” What everybody told me back in 2017 was that no, no, no, no. Epidurals don’t cause fevers. They might elevate your temperature, but I really don’t believe that at this point. I really think it was because of the fever. I knew that my epidural had not been great. I didn’t want it. I had back labor. I was like, “We need more support.” 

We got a doula and she was amazing. I had her by the end of my second trimester going into my third trimester. At the beginning of my third trimester, I went to a prenatal appointment on the regular day that I had been going and this new provider walked in. She said, “So you’re going to have a repeat C-section?” I’m like, “No.” She’s like, “Okay, well I mean, I have one priority, really two priorities and that’s a healthy baby and healthy mom.” I’m like, “Okay, but I signed the trial of labor consent last time.” She’s like, “Okay, well as long as you signed it.” 

It was a horrible discussion. I kept trying to be like, “No. I don’t want to talk about that. I’ve done my research. I’m good.” 

Meagan: Well and just what she had said there was pretty much saying, “Well, this is my priority and that’s the way to get it.” It was that. 

Heather: It was horrible. She didn’t go over my charts. She didn’t go over my gestational diabetes screening which I didn’t have, fortunately. She didn’t go over my TSH levels. She didn’t go over anything. She had a hard time finding the baby’s heartbeat. I was just like, “Man. Who is this person?” So I went home totally shook. I was not okay. This is not a good provider. I am being bait-and-switched. I called every office in town. I called every office two hours away. Nobody could take me by that point. I was bawling and I was just talking to my doula and I was just like, “I feel like I should drive two hours and show up in labor.” 

We examined all of the options. Because I hadn’t found anybody by the time of my next appointment, I went to my next appointment and my blood pressure was through the roof. It was 150/90 something and I was always fine. This midwife comes in and she’s like, “I was looking at your notes. That other provider does not do births. She can’t see. She is not indicative of this practice, Heather.” Right off the bat, this midwife was like, “I can see from your blood pressure readings and from what happened last time that this was not okay.”

I think I just started crying. I brought my husband that time because I was like, “I’m not going in alone.” So we went. We had a 45-minute to hour-long meeting with her. She was just amazing. She really got me back on track. She was like, “Okay. So here’s what we’re going to do. At 36 weeks, you’re going to start the evening primrose oil. You’re going to start doing this. You’re going to stretch that. We’re going to do stretch and sweeps if you want. If you don’t want them, that’s okay. If we have to induce, this is what I envision.” I’m like, “Oh my gosh. They’ll even induce.” You don’t know all of these things and her overall approach was like, “Okay. I’m feeling so much better about this.” 

So for the remainder of my pregnancy, I pretty much only went in on days when I knew that the other provider would not be there. I started seeing these other two midwives mostly whereas I had seen a third midwife on Wednesdays so I knew a few of the providers. I was like, “Okay.” As we were getting closer and closer, I’m checking back in with my doula and I’m like, “This hospital doesn’t have the things that I want. There are only two shower rooms. There are no tubs. There is no nitrous. It’s just two medication options, but I don’t feel like I can drive. I don’t want to be laboring in the car. I want to stay home as long as possible.” But I definitely was starting to feel more comfortable with that decision. 

Knowing that my husband and I had done the self-work since our first birth, knowing that we had all of this time to really talk through things, knowing that we had a doula, we just felt so much better prepared to advocate and face this. This time around, I did a hospital birth course which included a tour of labor and delivery. I was not prepared for how anxious I got in the labor room. I really was back in that place. 

Meagan: Triggered, yeah. It triggered you. 

Heather: I’m heading to the hospital. I’m having a baby. There are going to be interventions. It’s not what I want. But we got through it and I just had to take it by faith that I was going to be okay and I was going to be able to stand up for myself. 

Fast forwarding a little bit, we get to 34, 35, and 36 weeks and I’m just having tons of Braxton Hicks contractions. My job is keeping me on my feet a fair bit teaching little kids music, so I’m wiggling around and every time I’m moving, I’m feeling tightening. I’m like, “Wow. I’m getting ready. This is so amazing.” I was feeling very positive about that. By 35-36 weeks, every night from 10:00 PM on, it was like baby dance and squish hour. So I’m having those tightening Braxton Hicks. Sometimes they were timeable. They were pretty regular. They were not stopping, but I wouldn’t call them painful. 

I was on the link, “What is this? Okay. It’s probably prodromal labor.” So I was having that quite a bit. I started at 36 weeks. I started, “Okay. I’m going to do the evening primrose oil,” and boy did that make my uterus angry every time I would do it. I’m like, “I don’t know if the midwife really intended this. Maybe I shouldn’t do it.” 

I go to my 36-week appointment. I go to my 37-week appointment and I’m like, “Yeah. This is crazy.” I didn’t have any checks by that point. I did have a check, I guess, at 35 weeks when we did the GBS positive swab and I did come back positive. I was so upset. I was like, “Man, I really should have just declined that,” because I wasn’t going to change what I was going to do for labor anyway. I had one of the nice midwives check me at that point. She said, “You’re soft but you’re still pretty high and baby is right there. She moved when I poked her.” I thought that was pretty funny. I’m not sure if my son had ever gotten down that low, honestly. 

At 38 weeks, we go for a walk. I stopped working. I just had so many contractions. I had been bringing my husband to work with me because I work an hour away. I was like, “I’m not going to drive if I’m contracting. It could literally be any time.” But we had the appointment and the midwife was like, “So Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays are the midwives that are really on board with your birth plan. They’re the ones that you really want to see.” I was like, “Awesome.” 

So Monday night, I’m 38+3 and I do my prenatal yoga, pilates, and birth ball bouncing. It’s probably 10ish, 10:00 PM. My husband is like, “Let’s get this baby out of you.” He’s bouncing me on the ball. We’re just being lighthearted and silly and just like, “Okay, whatever.” But that night, I woke up at 3:00 AM which was not unusual having contractions which were not unusual. I get up to pee which is very usual as we all know. At that point in pregnancy, I just could not sleep and my water broke. 

I went to the bathroom and then I’m still leaking and it was dark. I’m like, “What’s going on?” I sit back down on the toilet. I get some light and I’m like, “Oh my gosh. There’s vernix in it. This is really my water.” I was so excited. I wasn’t really feeling any contractions and I was like, “Of course,” because I’m GBS positive, my water breaks prematurely. 

Meagan: Your water breaks first. 

Heather: I was so mad but I was like, “I’m not going yet. This could still be a day or more,” but I started calling my doula and let my husband sleep a little bit longer. I go into the room finally probably at almost 4:00 and I’m like, “My water broke.” He was dead asleep but his face lit up and he was so excited. That’s one of those really sweet memories from labor for me was just seeing his face get so excited like, “We’re having a baby! We’re having a baby!”

Another hour and a half goes by. I canceled all of the things that I had to do that day. My parents come to get my son and I had a very tearful goodbye because by this point, I was definitely in labor and I was emotional. I was like, “My baby.” So my parents show up for my son and I’m in the shower. I’m groaning, moaning through things and I’m definitely having back labor. My doula isn’t there yet, but we still have a lot of time. Contractions were fairly close by that point, probably 3-4 minutes apart for a solid minute, really, really strong ones. 

Meagan: Which is common with back labor and posterior babies where it’s really, really close. That’s really common. 

Heather: Yeah, I was like, “The shower is great, but you know what would be even better? A bath.” So I drew a bath and I’m emotional. My son is gone and I’m crying to my husband. He’s like, “You’re going to see him again.” But I’m like, “But he’s not going to be my only baby.” The doula shows up and she’s like, “Now, is your bath too warm?” I glared at her. I was like, “No. I was a good girl. I didn’t make it too warm.” All I wanted was to be in the sauna. 

But I get out. I was like, “Okay. It is time to go to the hospital. I’m facing that reality. I’m going to have to go to the hospital now.” So I used the bathroom and I’m on the toilet. Oh man, once again it was just so painful being on the toilet. I start feeling my body push. I’m like, “Okay. We need to go.” 

So we were packed up. I put on a robe and underwear and nothing else. 

Meagan: That’s great. 

Heather: We show up in August to the hospital in the south and I’m in my not regular robe, like a fuzzy robe. 

Meagan: Like fuzzy warm? 

Heather: Yeah, yeah. That’s what I wanted. I was beyond rational thought at that point. My husband parks right in front of the doors. It’s totally fine. We’re in a small enough town. It’s great. He gets the wheelchair and wheels me up. People are clearing the elevator for me and I’m like, “Uhhhhhhh.” We only had a ten-minute ride to the hospital, but I had at least five contractions so I was in full-blown transition at that point. I’m horse-lipping it. I’m doing whatever I can to not push. 

We get up to the room. We skip triage. We go right into the room and they’re pretty calm. My birth plan never made it over there, so they don’t know who I am really. I’m like, “That’s great. I’m happy with that because I’m a VBAC person and I don’t want the monitoring. I don’t want to be in your constrictions, rules, whatever.” It took them a long time actually to figure out I was a VBAC person. They’re kind of intermittently monitoring me but I’m moving around. I’m fully naked at this point. I had no modesty. I did not care. 

Oh, I had a TENS unit and I had a comb. 

Meagan: Combs are amazing. 

Heather: They really are. I’m leaning against the back of the hospital bed and I’m screaming through them. I got checked and I was like, “Can I have medicine?” They were like, “Uh, it’s too late for that. You’re at a 9.” I was like, “Oh my gosh.” I started labor maybe around 3:30 or so and I’m at the hospital by 8:30. 

Meagan: Wow. 

Heather: So I’m at a 9. I had my TENS unit turned way up. I’m screaming for things. As my husband, I want to say this. As my husband was wheeling me into the room, I was like, “I’m going to ask for an epidural. I want the epidural.” He was like, “No, you don’t. No, you don’t.” That moment was so important because at that exact moment, I forgave myself for that first epidural. I don’t think I could have in any other situation. I really was like, “No. I did what I had to that first birth. I understand again why I did it. This is no joke.” Just that thankfulness and that gratitude for that started. 

One of the nice midwives was on call so she comes in and she checks me. Even though I’m a 9, my cervix is moving out of the way, so she was like, “You have the green light to push.” So I’m pushing and I probably got ten minutes into pushing and I was like, “This isn’t working. I want a C-section. I want to be awake for my baby’s birth. I don’t want her to get stuck.” The midwife was like, “This was your choice. We have not been doing this for long enough. Okay. We are not there yet.” 

Everybody like my doula is in the back saying, “No, Heather. You’re doing great. You’re fine.” My husband is like, “No. We’re not doing that.” I was like, “Okay. Okay, no. I know how to push. I remember this. I can do this.” So I was pushing. I started off pushing holding the back of the hospital bed. I pushed on my hands and knees. I wasn’t feeling like it was super effective at that point. I really wanted to try the squat bar. They didn’t really know where it was. They had to figure out where it was. I guess they don’t use it a lot, but I was like, “No. We’re doing this.” 

I pushed squatting for a while. That was pretty good, but we were like, “Okay. Let’s find a position where I can rest in between contractions too.” I tried on my left side for a while and then I turned to my right side for a while. One of the pushes on my right side, I felt a shift and I was like, “Oh. Now we’re in business.” I could tell. She had moved farther along. 

I actually ended up pushing on my back for a little while. That felt good too. It felt really effective. While I was on my back, I asked for a mirror which was something in my first birth, my voice had said, “Yeah. Go for the mirror,” but my fear had gone, “I don’t want to see. I don’t want to see that.” But this time, they didn’t have a mirror so my husband whips out his cell phone and I was like, “Don’t you dare.” He’s like, “No, no. It’s just so you can see. I wouldn’t do that Heather.” I was like, “Okay.”

Meagan: That’s actually a really great idea. 

Heather: Yeah, honestly. I got to see that. I got to really be so much more present. By the time I was pushing, yes contractions were really intense, but I was so thankful to just be able to do something about them. I had experienced this in the first labor too. With the epidural wearing off, pushing felt good. Ring of fire did not. I could feel that. That was super intense, but I had really gotten back into the zone at this point.

I guess I had tested out my provider and she was like, “No. You’re doing it. You’re doing great.” They really could never get the monitors to continuously monitor me. They tried one of the wireless ones and baby girl and I were just moving too much. I was thinking, “That’s fine. We’re moving. That’s what we need to do.” So I would push and then the labor nurse who apparently was a little snarky about me not being on continuous monitoring would slide the monitor down and at one point, the midwife was like, “That’s your baby’s heartbeat. Your baby’s doing good.” A few times, they reminded me to take really slow breaths in between so we kept that oxygen going. 

After a while, probably about 45 minutes or maybe longer of pushing, I got back up on the squat bar and it really got serious by this point. I remember the midwife was like, “Okay. There is about this much, about two inches between you and the bed, so once this head is delivered, we’re going to carefully roll you to your back and then we’ll deliver the rest of the baby.” I was like, “Oh my gosh. I’m having this birth.” So the next contraction comes and it builds. I push and I feel her just slip out entirely. 

Meagan: Whoa. 

Heather: She fell out of me at that point. In one motion, I had my eyes closed and I had been on the bar. She’s out of me and I roll back onto the back of the bed. All of a sudden, I have this very slimy, meconium-covered baby on my chest. She wasn’t covered, but she had all of this fluid come out.

Meagan: Warm and sticky.

Heather: Yes, very sticky. I was just like, “Oh my god. I did it.” It was an amazing feeling. I didn’t have this huge rush of love. It was a little bit like when I had held my son for the first time like, “Oh my gosh. There is this beautiful stranger in my arms,” but that was kind of nice. I was like, “Okay. I’m used to that. That doesn’t mean anything. I did it.” They did all of the APGAR scores and everything watching her on my chest. The nursery nurse was like, “If you see her starting to peck around, you can nurse her.” We had a successful first latch. My doula was taking pictures so we have some beautiful pictures of my husband and me just looking at this baby and looking at each other and grinning. 

I mean, I would say the biggest feeling I had after Juniper’s birth was just gratitude. I really felt so cared for in the hospital this time. I knew the midwife and she was really, really supportive. Having my doula and my husband there was great. My husband was a rockstar this time. I would say we were both kind of deer in headlights the first birth. This time, he was giving me sips of water. He was encouraging me to put on chapstick. He was holding my hand. He was just an amazing partner through this and I mean, I know my doula did a lot but I feel like she was also just kind of there. I know at one point when they were like, “There’s no birth plan. What does she want?” my doula was on it because at that point, all I would have been able to say it, “I want the things,” which would have been, “I want skin-to-skin. I want delayed cord clamping.” 

My husband cut the umbilical cord while she was on my chest. We got to see the placenta. We got alone time just to have that golden hour. I was very sore but it was nothing compared to the back labor. I just felt really like, “Okay. I can handle this recovery this time.” 

Important to note, I did have a mental health plan in place for postpartum. I still saw my providers two weeks later and it was the really warm and fuzzy midwife. She was like, “How are you feeling?” I was like, “Honestly, I’m great.” I had a little bit of baby blues a few days after where I was comically crying because my babies were growing up when one is four days old, but it was honestly a night and day difference between the baby blues and postpartum depression. Baby blues, I felt great most of the time. I had this abiding sense of gratitude and love for my husband, for my kids, thankfulness and so appreciative of the staff. 

My midwife had actually told the labor nurse to back off because she was freaking out that I wasn’t being monitored as a VBAC person but my midwife had said going into it, “I think number one, we’re going to get you a better birth this time and I think that’s going to help your mental health but number two, we’re here. We can up your dose.” I had therapy appointments already scheduled. My therapist was like, “If you need to see me twice a week, that’s fine. We’ll make this work.” Ultimately, I went into it having done a lot of preparation for postpartum and knowing that I had been through the fire the first time and I could do it if need be. Actually, it was a lot easier than I had expected. 

I think the other reason why this postpartum reason was easier was because I did do so much intensive work since my first child’s birth. I really dug into the trauma. It took a long time. There’s no timeline where you have to have it all figured out by and even during pregnancy, I was still figuring out bits and pieces of it and piecing it together and facing difficulties, but I had just told myself going into that birth, “I’m going to l listen to myself. I’m going to listen to that voice and if baby needs to be born via C-section, it’s going to be okay because I will have listened to myself this time.” That’s going to be the big difference. 

So I really tried to manage my expectations but also just to hold onto what I knew I could control and what I knew I could do. 

Meagan: I love that you say that. Hold onto what I could control. Hold onto what you can control We know in birth and in life, in everything in life, there are so many things that are truly out of our control, but for this birth, you held onto what you could control and then you were open-minded for the things that you couldn’t control. It didn’t go another route which is awesome, but if it did, you were much better prepared this time. Through this birth, I feel like we saw such a shift in you, Heather. We saw such a big shift in, “I’ve got this voice. I don’t feel I can use it. I’ve got this voice. I’m going to use it and I’m going to get my team. They’re going to know what my voice is before I get there even so if I don’t ever feel like I can use it because I’m in a space where I’m vulnerable, my team knows and they’re advocating for me.” 

Heather: Yeah. That was such an important part for me. I knew I was having a daughter this time. I was like, “I’m going to approach this as the model that I want her to have. I want her to know that she is empowered to make whatever choices she needs to in life and I need to practice that now.” I also want my kids to know sometimes life is uncontrollable and that we can trust things but we can also just accept that some things are going to be hard. We don’t know what the outcome is going to be. 

I really had this saying in the back of my head, “Don’t push the river. The river of labor is going to come. It’s going to take me where it takes me.” From the water breaking to her being out, it was maybe 7 hours. She was born at 9:58 AM so an hour and a half after I got to the hospital. So much did go how I wanted. So much was a lot harder than I expected, but I had prepared myself in so many ways. I knew I was strong. I knew I had been preparing my body, my mind, and my emotions. I really had just been so vulnerable with my husband and myself. I knew I could tap into that vulnerability as strength which is honestly one reason why I am here today is that I really hope that we can all find that. It’s hard. 

Meagan: It is hard. It’s really hard. We’ve talked about this in other episodes. It’s hard to even recognize or accept that you need to do that. It’s hard to even get to that point. There are so many times when we just brush it away so I love it. I love that you go through all of that work for for yourself. Look at what that did. Look at the impact. Like you said, it’s okay. You’re still going through things. You’re still working through things and you are probably going to for a while and that is okay, but you’re helping you and you’re taking charge for you.

Heather: Mhmm, yep. I feel so good about the example that’s for my kids. 

Meagan: Exactly. Exactly, yes. Thank you so much for coming into this space and being so vulnerable and sharing these beautiful stories. I know as a mom myself going through two undesired Cesareans and both in different ways, I understand that space of wanting to be that strength but not feeling like you can and then through work and processing and education, being able to be there and say, “Okay. I’ve got this for myself. I’ve got this for myself.”

Listeners, you can do that too. If you are like Heather and I and have been in a moment, and it doesn’t even just apply in birth, it may apply in all things in life where we feel vulnerable and we feel stuck, you can do it. You can trudge through the mud. Sometimes it’s really feeling like you’re trudging with ankle weights on. It’s thick and it’s heavy, but you can do it. You are strong. 

Something I also wanted to mention is patient advocacy. I don’t know if that’s ever been spoken about on the podcast. I don’t know if many people even know it exists. I believe from my knowledge that it exists in every hospital because there unfortunately are things that happen in hospitals where patients need to go in. But if you are like Heather and you’ve had this experience, don’t shy away. Heather, do you have any tips on how to maybe approach a provider in that way of, “Hey, I’ve got this going on.” How could someone start that conversation or who in the hospital can they contact to find the patient advocacy program?

Heather: Yeah, so I knew about it because my social worker was also a therapist. I would say that finding social workers is going to be the first step because they are the ones trained to know the systems. I know that there are always going to be some kind of social worker attached to the hospital system. When I had that awful doctor appointment with that obstetrician, I actually did approach the social worker. She’s not a therapist but she was like, “Here’s the name of the person who you should talk to.” 

I actually have that card but I haven’t contacted them yet because I’m giving myself space and grace but I will. I will at some point and say, “This happened and it was not okay.” I would say if you are afraid to talk to your provider about it, just ask your provider who the social worker is and how to get in contact with them. I don’t think hospitals usually advertise that super well at all. 

Meagan: They don’t. 

Heather: But telling your provider if your provider is the one that you are reporting, telling them that you want to talk to the social worker is a neutral way to go about it. If you’re like me and had a wonderful midwife but had an issue with another person, you could probably talk directly to your provider about like, “I need to talk to a patient advocate. What happened was not okay and I want somebody to listen to me.” 

Meagan: Yeah. This is the thing. I think you touched on it earlier. It’s not always to just be like, “I want to sue this person.” It’s not about that, but I will tell you right now, it’s going to make change. It’s going to make change. You are advocating for another birthing person who is walking in and maybe is in a vulnerable space and doesn’t feel that they can speak for themselves or maybe after some more education from a provider’s standpoint or a nurse’s standpoint, they can step back and be like, “Okay. I’ve learned about this and I’m not going to take this approach because it’s affected someone else.” 

It’s okay. It’s okay to do that. You really are. You’re advocating for the future people.

Heather. Yep. It really can help you heal too. 

Meagan: Absolutely. That’s one of the biggest takeaways from personally doing that. Like you said, it didn’t help everything. It didn’t cure all of your feelings, but it gave you some validation. It gives you power in your healing. So I love that you spoke about that and all about the postpartum. I’m so glad you had a much better and healing and beautiful experience the second time around. 

Heather: Yes, me too. I really felt so much better cared for this time. 

Meagan: Good. Good. Well, congratulations again. 

Heather: Thank you. 

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

Abby has always had a heart for birth. She became doula-certified long before becoming a mother and even introduced her husband to The Business of Being Born on their second date! She knew that undisturbed, physiological birth was the way she wanted to go.

But Abby’s birth experiences were filled with wild twists and turns including chorioamnionitis, posterior and breech positioning, pulmonary embolisms, hemorrhaging, multiple miscarriages, an ICU stay, and many blood transfusions. 

With the odds stacked against her, Abby did not give up the fight. She knew deep in her soul that a VBA2C was something she could do.

AND SHE DID!

Fresh off of her VBA2C, Abby shares every intense, tender, and raw moment of her journey. We know you’ll love Abby just as much as we do.

Additional Links

Abby’s Website

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Meagan: Hello, this is Meagan with The VBAC Link and today we have another beautiful story for you. We are so excited to share all of these stories in this beautiful 2023. It’s going to be a great year. That is what I keep saying. It’s going to be a great year. No more weird viruses and all of the things. It’s just going to be a good, positive year and we are starting this week out with a positive VBAC story. 

We have Abby with us today and she is from North Carolina. Is that correct? 

Abby: Yes, Charlotte, North Carolina. 

Meagan: Yes, I love it. We have quite a few doulas in North Carolina as well. Maybe you guys could all connect. She is actually a doula as well. She is not practicing right now because she has a whole bunch of little bodies around, but this birth has totally motivated and boosted her spirits into the day that she does get back into doula work. So Abby, welcome. 

Meagan: I am going to share a quick review and then we will jump right into your beautiful story. 

Abby: I can’t wait. 

Meagan: Me neither. I really can’t wait for your story. This is PaigeBroadway. She shared her review and it was on Apple Podcasts. It says, “Allowing me to believe in myself.” Just that subject right there makes me so happy because that is exactly why The VBAC Link exists is allowing you to believe in yourself. We talk about this all of the time. It’s to believe in yourself to make the decision that is best for you. We don’t always have to have a VBAC. We don’t always have to have a repeat Cesarean. Or maybe a VBAC is chosen to a repeat Cesarean or a scheduled one. It doesn’t matter the way we birth, but as long as we believe in ourselves and we believe in our ability to make the right choice for us, that is exactly what this podcast is for. 

Her review says, “My husband and I are currently trying to conceive. I knew immediately after my C-section that I never wanted to have an experience like that again. This podcast has already given me the strength to switch providers and the knowledge to prepare for a VBAC. I can do this.” 

Paige, you absolutely can do this. Just like all of the others here, right? Right, Abby? Do you feel like that?

Abby: Oh my gosh. That is just the most encouraging thing and that’s how I felt about The VBAC Link for five years and now I’m here telling my story. So yes, Paige. You can do it. You really can. 

Meagan: Yes. You really, really can. We always accept more reviews. You can drop us an email at info@thevbaclink.com or Apple Podcasts or Google Play. You can send us a message on Instagram. Wherever it may be, we love to read your reviews. We love to receive your reviews. So definitely if you wouldn’t mind, push pause and drop us a review. 

Meagan: Hello, women of strength. This is Meagan. I am so happy that you are listening to the podcast. When I was preparing for my vaginal birth after two Cesareans, it was hard to find the evidence-based information in one spot. It could lead me to feel lonely or even confused. This is why Julie and I created The VBAC Link Podcast. Did you know that we also send out emails with helpful tips and advice on how to achieve your VBAC all easily digestible in one email form? Just head over to thevbaclink.com. 

Okay, Abby. We have so many stories on this podcast and I know that like you said, here you’ve been for five years and now you are here sharing your story. You are just fresh. You are fresh out of it, right? 2 weeks? 

Abby: Very fresh. I just stopped wearing Depends the other day. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. I love it. That is fresh. That is fresh out of it. 

Abby: Very fresh. 

Meagan: Fresh out of birth. Sometimes I feel like right out of birth is so fun because again, it’s so fresh and it’s in the forefront of your mind so you have all of the detailed things to share. I am so, so, so excited for you to share your story. So go ahead. 

Abby: Oh my goodness. Well, I should start at the beginning about five years ago. My daughter is turning five on January 31st, so it’s been almost exactly five years since she was born. I went to a doula training when I was 20-22ish years old way before my husband and I met. On our first date, he told me that he didn’t want to be in the room when the baby was born. I literally told him that he should go on a date with someone else because it was so important. I was like, “This isn’t going to work out.” I showed him The Business of Being Born on our second date and he has changed dramatically since then. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. I’m dying. 

Abby: But I feel like that just gives a little bit of a background of who I am as a human being. 

Meagan: And your passion. 

Abby: I feel very strongly about it. Yes, yeah. I was really quite young. Honestly, I have to give a shoutout to a friend of mine who is now a midwife but was a doula at the time. We went on a mission trip to Africa. We were sitting on a bed in Uganda and she was talking about how beautiful birth was. I was a teenager. I think I was soon to turn 21. It was like, “Why would you not get an epidural?” I was very far away from childbearing years at the time. I just didn’t understand. She just sat patiently with me and explained in such a beautiful way how beautiful birth is and that it can create a mother and that it’s worth it to go through what you go through and come out on the other side of it. It was just such a meaningful conversation for me. 

It really shifted my whole worldview and made me who I am today.  It’s interesting thinking back on that girl who would have said, “Why would you not get an epidural? Why would you want to have a natural childbirth?” to the way that my stories ended up which is just bananas. 

Needless to say, I was very crunchy and felt like, “Okay. I’d love to have a home birth.” It was my first baby, so my husband was like, “Maybe we should do a birth center.” At the time, there was a birth center in Charlotte, so that’s the direction that we went. I was just picturing the twinkle lights and a tub and all of the things that you see on Instagram for birth. That was the mental picture that existed in my brain. At that time, I was listening to another birth podcast and I specifically remember skipping over C-section stories. I was just not interested in them. I didn’t even think it applied. It wasn’t intentional. It was, “Oh, well I don’t need to listen to those because I’m not going to have a C-section.”

Meagan: That’s not what I’m doing. Exactly.

Abby: Yeah, that’s not what I’m doing, so why would I need to listen to that? In retrospect, that really messed me up and I love that y’all’s podcast mentions that this is a podcast for all moms. This does not need to just be people who have had C-sections. I think listening to The VBAC Link can help you prepare to a) not have a C-section, but also prepare for a C-section if that’s what has to happen for you. It was just a really difficult transition for me from the twinkle light picture to ending up with a C-section. 

But my pregnancy with Hadley was fine. It’s funny because I’m older now and I’m like, “Oh, that pregnancy was great.” I was in great shape and I was much younger. Everything was fine and easier. I did have a rib pop out of place. I know now that she was sunny-side up for almost the entire pregnancy, so my whole third trimester was excruciatingly painful. I had never seen a chiropractor before that, so I went to a chiropractor eventually but it was really just like bandaids. It wasn’t really helping because my body was not in the right condition beforehand. I’m a really big proponent of bodywork. That will come back in the rest of my story. But at the time, I didn’t know what I didn’t know. I was in a lot of pain toward the end, but other than that, everything was fine. 

I went overdue which I expected. I was excited when I made it to 37 because I was still allowed to be at the birth center. I think I was probably pretty ready. I tried to do some induction acupuncture, and I’m not sure if it actually did anything but a couple of days later, I started having what I felt like were contractions. I had never been in labor before, so they were two minutes apart but really, really short and not getting any longer. I was just confused.

My doula-gut was like, “This feels off, but also I’m dying.” I don’t know what to do about this. So we called my doula over and went to the birth center after almost 48 hours of having those contractions at home. Again, if I knew then what I know now, I would have taken a bath and had some Epsom salts. It was probably prodromal labor. 

We went to the birth center and I can’t not tell this part of the story. I told the midwife, “If you tell me that I’m 1 centimeter, I’m going to kick you in the face.” She backed up because I was only 1 centimeter. Oh, I was like, “No, don’t back up. Come in my face and tell me I’m a 4 or something.” I just knew at that point that it was over because I was like, “I’m so tired. This is the point when I’m asking for an epidural and I’m 1 centimeter.” How could I possibly get through this?

The worst news was yet to come. She said, “You have to transfer to the hospital. You have a fever of 100.2.” She thought that I had chorio. I think, I don’t know how to say the actual word. It’s chorioamnionitis. 

Meagan: Yeah. That’s why they call it chorio. 

Abby: Exactly. 

Meagan: Infection. It’s an infection. 

Abby: Right. It’s a uterine infection. She said, “I’m sorry. I’m diagnosing you with a uterine infection. You have to go to the hospital.” I was just devastated. Honestly, that was the point of my birth where I feel like I really lost all of my power as a person and a mother. The rest of the birth felt like it just happened to me. I was not an active participant. I went to the hospital and they said, “You actually don’t have a fever,” because the hospital system’s standard of fever is over 100, and at the hospital, I was 99.7 or something. So they said, “You don’t have a fever. We’re going to let you labor.”

Meagan: So it went down?

Abby: I don’t know if it went down or if it was just a different thermometer and they were like, “According to us, you don’t have a fever so we’ll let you labor.” In retrospect, it was good news because if they had just sliced me open the second I got there, I probably would have never set foot in a hospital again and that would have been very bad news for my second birth. So I think that would have really turned me off of the medical system altogether and doctors. I just would have gone real red pill in the other direction. 

So they let me labor, but I ended up with an epidural at 1 centimeter. I tried to get in the little dinky shower at the hospital and it was cold half water. I was like, “This is doing nothing.” I wanted to be in the tub at the birth center. I ended up with an epidural flat on my back and at that point, you’re like, “Well, who cares? If I’m already here, why not do Pitocin? Why not break my water?” So thus began the cascade of interventions ironically that started with an epidural. I feel like that’s not always the case, but that was very much the cascade of interventions for me. I did not want them to break my water, but eventually, they did. 

I was there for three days and they really let me go for a really long time. 

Meagan: That’s actually really impressive for a hospital.

Abby: I was so pleased with the care that I received. Both of the OBs that were flipping on and off of call were very patient with me. I think they kind of knew, “Oh, this is one of those birth center moms. We might as well just let her try.” 

Meagan: Let her do it. 

Abby: That was kind of a vibe that I got, but it was genuine. They really were like, “Yeah. You can totally do this.” But really, it was an unnecessary induction because I was 1 centimeter and I wasn’t really in labor. I wasn’t having true labor contractions. I wish that I had just gone home and gone to sleep, but we wouldn’t be here having this conversation if that happened. 

I got to 10 eventually and I made it to pushing eventually. The epidural that I had was so strong that I could not feel from my shoulders all the way down. I was numb. I’ve never been so numb in my life, but again, I didn’t know that’s not what an epidural was supposed to feel like. They were telling me to push and I was just like, “What do you mean?” They told me to lift my legs up and I was like, “I can’t hold my legs. They weigh 4000 pounds. What are you talking about?” 

The nurses were not as kind as the OBs and I could tell that they were not approving of my pushing and that it wasn’t doing what it was supposed to be doing. But the benefit of Hadley’s birth, she asked that I say her name on the podcast, so the benefit of Hadley’s birth was that by the time I made it to 10 and pushing, they tried to use the vacuum seven times. They tried all of the things. They really, really let me go. 

So by the time they said it was time for a C-section, I really trusted them. I didn’t feel like it was a snap judgment. I felt like, “You know what? Okay. I agree. If this isn’t working, it’s not working. There’s nothing else we can do.” So come to find out, she was sunny-side up. 

Meagan: I was going to say, was she sunny-side up still?

Abby: She was. She was. So when they had broken my water, she basically got stuck up in that broken rib cage and never made it around my pubic bone. I also did have chorio we found out after. 

Meagan: Oh no way. 

Abby: It was just the wildest. We joke that it was a Murphy’s Law birth and that every random thing could have possibly happened, but everyone was fine. I was fine. Hadley was fine, but it was deeply traumatic for me. I really did not feel like I was present for it at all. It was really difficult to feel like I wanted to have this empowering, personal experience and it was so impersonal and medicalized. I was separated from Hadley for the first few hours of her life and they took me into, I don’t even know what it’s called, but it was a terrible experience. 

My husband was super traumatized because it wasn’t what he thought was happening either and it was really, really difficult for us. That is really when I started listening to The VBAC Link right away. I was like, “Done. I’m having a VBAC. That was terrible. I’m not doing that again.” I felt pretty strongly about that. Unfortunately, it took us two and a half years to get pregnant with our second. We had three miscarriages along the way, so a lot of our story has been “not right nows” and “maybe laters”. We are really thankful for the children that we have which is wild how they all got here at the correct time. 

We were filling out adoption paperwork in January 2021 after so long of trying and found out on February 1st the day after my 5-year-old’s third birthday that we were pregnant. It was the darkest line I’ve seen since I was pregnant with Hadley. It was like, “This is the baby. This is the one. She’s going to stick around.” I felt like this was my VBAC. I don’t know if that was just my personality and my, “Oh, this is going to happen. I’m going to manhandle this into being the case,” but I very much wanted it to be my VBAC. 

That pregnancy went kind of similarly with rib pain. I started chiropractic earlier this time, but still really struggled with the rib. Her name is Ginnie. Ginnie was sunny-side up the whole time, so that was against me from the beginning that she was sunny-side up, but again, I don’t know how I didn’t spend more time thinking about it or trying to get her into a better position, but I just didn’t. It was honestly the height of COVID and I had a toddler. Life was just still happening, so I went into labor I thought. I was 39 weeks exactly and my water broke at home. I was elated because, with Hadley, my water didn’t break on its own so I felt like, “Oh my gosh. Labor is starting. I’m going into labor naturally. This is exactly what I wanted.”

I stood up and it was a gush. It was very much my water. It was no mistaking, “Okay, that’s not pee. Definitely, my water has broken.” I was so excited and then nothing happened at all. 

Meagan: I can totally relate to that. 

Abby: Yes. I’ve listened to your birth stories. It was a Sunday so a friend came to pick up our toddler and we were all excited. We were going to have a baby. Nothing. 

Meagan: Nothing. 

Abby: Crickets. Not even a single cramp. I walked four miles that day. We did all of the things and it just was like no. We went to sleep that night and I was like, “I’m not going to the hospital until 24 hours and then I’m not even going to tell the hospital that it’s been that long,” which is sort of what happened. We went in about 24 hours later and I still had not had a single contraction. Absolutely nothing happened. 

Meagan: Were you still leaking?

Abby: Yes. Yeah. 

Meagan: Still coming. 

Abby: Again with the diapers, I need to buy stock in Depends at this point. But yes it was definitely my water and it was definitely not doing anything. I went to the hospital. Triage takes a million hours when you’re not in active labor, so we were in triage forever and they wanted to get me hooked up to continuous fetal monitoring. I said, “Oh, okay. So I’ll have the wireless one.” They were like, “Oh, it doesn’t work.” I was like, “That’s not what I signed up for.” My practice was very like, “Yes, you can have a VBAC.” Actually, my midwife was very, “You can have a VBAC,” but she was part of a practice that had OBs and you sort of don’t know who you’re going to get until the day of. 

I felt very supported throughout my whole pregnancy. Everyone thought I was going to have a VBAC. I had plenty of those conversations with OBs that they’re like, “Okay, so just so you know, here are the risks.” I’m like, “Yeah, yeah. I know all of the risks. I’ve done the research. Thank you very much for informing me. Have a nice day.” When I think back, I think there were probably some red flags that it was friendly but not supportive.

Meagan: Tolerant. 

Abby: Yes, a tolerant but not supportive practice. But again, I didn’t know that until I knew that. I started an induction. My contractions started getting regular. It worked. I was dilating and I made it to about 6 centimeters. I don’t think I mentioned this before but my husband had childhood cancer, so he has pretty severe medical trauma and hospitals are particularly triggering for him. Other people being in pain is also triggering for him. 

Meagan: I’m sure, yeah. 

Abby: Around 6 centimeters, I was starting to need a little bit more support. My doula, because inductions take forever, was like, “I’m just going to go home and spend the day at home. I’ll come back at night when you really need it.” I was chilling. I was just watching Friends and hanging out until I wasn’t. It started to pick up really quickly. What made me start to need more support was that they turned off the Pitocin when I had to go to the bathroom and then they turned it back on and didn’t change the number. I think it was at a 9, but something about turning it off and turning it back on made my body go, “Whoa. That was really intense.” All of a sudden it felt like insane Pit contractions. 

My husband started to have a really hard time supporting me through it and my doula was stuck in line at Chick-fil-A. You know, once you’re in the line, you can’t get out of the drive-thru. 

Meagan: Of all the places too, darn it. 

Abby: We wanted it. I was like, “Bring me food. I want to eat something. I’m going to break all of these rules.” 

Meagan: She’s getting everyone food and stuck. 

Abby: Yes, she’s totally stuck. My husband needed to eat dinner. It had been a long day already, so she was stuck. I was like, “You know what? I have peace about this. I’m going to get an epidural. I’m going to ask for an epidural.” I really was pretty okay. I was not dying mentally at this point, but I felt like my husband needed a little break from me not being okay and I felt like, “I’m at a 6. I got an epidural at 1 centimeter last time so all right. We’re doing it. This is happening. Things are progressing. Let’s do it.” 

Naturally, my doula got back right before they were placing the epidural. She was like, “What are you doing? We’re not doing an epidural. Let me do some hip compressions. What are you talking about?” She’s very, “Come on. Let’s do this.” That’s why I hired her because I needed that, but I had made up my mind mentally. 

Meagan: Yeah, which is okay.

Abby: Yes. Very much so. I think it is honestly what needed to happen for a litany of reasons. But once my doula got back, she noticed that my heart rate kept beeping on the monitor and when you’re in hospitals, you hear beeping all of the time so we weren’t paying attention to what the beeping was. It wasn’t the baby’s, so no one was really all that concerned, but my heart rate was insanely high. So much so that my doula was checking my Apple Watch for my history of what my normal heart rate was. She was like, “Give me your Apple Watch and let me look at what this normally is,” but I had only gotten my Apple Watch while I was pregnant, so I didn’t have a baseline, “This is my normal heart rate.” 

Basically, the nurses just turned down the volume on my heart rate monitor that was saying, “Alert, alert! Something is wrong with this woman.” 

Meagan: That could be a sign of infection. 

Abby: It could be a sign of a lot of things. 

Meagan: A whole bunch of other things, yes. 

Abby: It seemed like my doula was the only one who was concerned about that. I was concerned only about having a VBAC so I was like, “Whatever. I don’t want any hindrances to the VBAC. Don’t panic about me because I’m good. Baby is good. I’m good. I’m fine.” 

Again, I made it to 10 and pushing. My heart rate was through the roof and I guess I need to rewind a little bit, sorry. I had a cough for the last four weeks of my pregnancy, maybe more like six. It was a dry cough and it was a the height of COVID, so I had 75 COVID tests because they said that I had COVID.” 

Meagan: Because you had a cough. 

Abby: Yes, exactly. They said that if I had COVID, my doula couldn’t come into the birth with me. With my husband’s history, I was like, “No, no. I have to have my doula. That’s not an option.” I took 1000 COVID tests, but it was never COVID. It was never positive. I just had this dry cough that would not go away. The cough combined with the heart rate was really freaking my doula out even when I had an epidural. I took a little nap. I made it to 10 and pushing. When I was pushing, my cough really started to ramp up. I was coughing incessantly. 

I remember the midwives joking, “We’re all going to have COVID at the end of this birth. Obviously, this lady has COVID because she is coughing up a storm.” We were talking about how one of the midwives had just gotten her taste or her smell back or something after having it. She was like, “Oh my gosh. I’m going to get it again.” It was all of this sort of lighthearted conversation, very, “Yeah, haha. We’re all going to get COVID I guess.” 

Yes, except for my doula. She was like, “This is odd.” But she said, “You know, maybe you’ll cough your baby out. Maybe it will help you. Maybe those pushes will help you get the baby out.” She was trying to be encouraging. I don’t even remember. I should probably look at my notes on how long I pushed. I think it was a couple of hours and again, I had a sunny-side-up baby with my water broken. She was just lodged and would not come down. 

Meagan: Were they able to try and rotate at all or was she not low enough? 

Abby: Neither of the girls ever descended. I don’t remember what station they were at, but it was high. I looked at a picture of my third baby at 37 weeks and my belly was so much lower at 37 weeks than either of the girls on the day I went into labor. They just never dropped. They were not ready really. 

So when they said that it was time, an OB came in who I had never met before and was not the kindest about the way that she shared that information with me. For me, I felt like, “Who’s going to let me try for a VBAC after two? This is my opportunity to have a vaginal birth and if this is it, this is it. I can’t.” But it felt like at that moment, everyone in the room just sort of fell to what she said. I didn’t have a choice. Even my doula who I adore was like, “I think it is time.” So when your doula and your husband and your midwives all say, “I think it’s time,” then what choice do you really have? 

Meagan: Well, you trust these people.

Abby: Right, right. You also don’t want to be the person who, this sounds horrible, but something happened to my baby because I was so hell-bent on having a vaginal birth. At that point, that’s how the conversation felt. Her heart rate was dropping and it wasn’t coming back up in between contractions. They were like, “Okay. I think it’s time.” I reluctantly consented, but really, really struggled. I sobbed through the C-section and threw up through the C-section. I hate having my arms out like Jesus on the cross. It’s just the worst thing in the world. It’s just terrible. It’s not for everyone. I feel like it’s important for me to say that that was my experience. I have a friend who just had a C-section and she was like, “I thought that it was really cool to know that they were down there doing all of that stuff.” She had a great experience and I think that’s amazing. I’m so glad she did, but for me, it was just so different than what I expected that it was deeply traumatizing for me, especially for the second time. 

But the baby came out and she was fine. I think it took her a couple of seconds to start breathing. I think she had some meconium or something, but they handed her to my husband. She was all cute and then they brought her over to me. She licked my cheek. I do remember having a very different reaction to meeting her than meeting my first daughter. With my first, I had never had a baby before and so I felt like the first thing I thought was, “I didn’t think that’s what she would look like.” I didn’t feel like, “Oh my gosh, I made this human and I love it so much.” That was just not my experience. 

But with the second one, I had a three-year-old at the time and was like, “You’re going to turn into the coolest little person,” and I knew how to love a child then so it felt much better and different which actually made the next part a lot harder. I still had my cough. It did not go away and after they had sewn me up on the table, every doctor had left the room and it was just the surgical techs and the people that are basically cleaning up the floor. I had to cough and my arms were still out. I was flat on my back and you know when you have a cough, you want to turn to the side or sit up and I couldn’t do either of those things. My lips turned blue and they called a code. I was breathing so I don’t know what the codes are. They pressed a big alarm and people came running. Brian, my husband, was holding the baby and they took her out of his arms and basically pushed him into the hallway so that he wouldn’t see me die, I suppose was the thought, or drop the baby or who knows. 

I just wanted to turn over and I was trying to explain to these nurses while having a coughing fit, “Can you just let me roll over?” They were trying to put oxygen on my face. I was like, “That’s not going to help this tickle in my throat. I don’t want you to put oxygen on my face.” I was fighting them off. 

Meagan: I need to get up. 

Abby: Yeah, exactly. I was just like, “Why can’t you understand me?” But I wasn’t speaking words, so that’s why. The first person who ran back into the room was my anesthesiologist and she apparently was a cardiac-specific anesthesiologist which I didn’t even know was a thing. She took one look at me after I had settled down and said, “I believe that you just had a pulmonary embolism and you need to go to get a CT scan.” At that point, I didn’t know what a pulmonary embolism was so I was not all that concerned about it. I was like, “You’re silly. I just have a cough. I’ve had a cough for four weeks. What are you talking about?” 

I knew that my husband was going to be really upset obviously, but he wasn’t going to be allowed to come with me to get a CT scan. I was like, “You have to let me go talk to my husband. I have to go tell him that I’m okay.” It’s not funny, but it’s now just sort of a dark humor inside joke that when I went to go talk to him, I was like, “Babe don’t worry. It’s just a pulmonary embolism.” He was like, “Abby, those kill people. That’s not a just kind of thing.” 

They found several bilateral pulmonary embolisms in my lungs. One of my lungs was 98% occluded, so 2% away from not being able to make it. I spent the first two days of her life in the ICU. Again, it was COVID so I wasn’t able to see her because everyone in the ICU was there for COVID. They were like, “We don’t want your newborn to get sick,” and they were on different floors so they brought her to me one time and then I pumped milk for her that nurses took back and forth but it was really insane. 

Meagan: Wow. 

Abby: They gave me blood transfusions and immediately put me on heparin and a drip to start clearing up the blood clots and get them thinned out. When I got finally sent home from the hospital, I had to start blood thinner injections and do those for the next six weeks which unfortunately led to a postpartum hemorrhage. 

Meagan: Oh my land. 

Abby: It’s a wild ride. This wasn’t even that long ago. It was October 2021. I basically didn’t have any postpartum bleeding for the first week. I was like, “Man, maybe the C-section is just the way to do it. Maybe this is making the bleeding a lot easier,” but what they think happened is that I had some major swelling and it was basically holding all of the blood in my uterus and by the time it opened up, it was like floodgates. I won’t be too graphic, but when they tell you to call the doctor is when I called the doctor. 

I had a couple of other scary experiences at home. I passed some clots and they had given me some Cytotec which is supposed to squeeze the uterus. 

Meagan: Clamp the uterus down, yep. 

Abby: It clamped too much blood out and I lost too much blood in one hour basically. I passed out on the floor and I was on blood thinners so my mom caught my head because you can get a brain bleed if something happens while you are on blood thinners. I had to get a blood transfusion the next day. My postpartum experience was recovering from a C-section, recovering from the ICU, and then postpartum hemorrhages and I think I had three blood transfusions after being outside of the hospital. 

Meagan: Holy cow. 

Abby: I don’t even know how to end that story and shift to the next one because it really was not that long ago. That daughter is now 15 months old. Like I said, it took us a long time to get pregnant with her so I suppose you could say that we were not all that cautious after she was born. Six months later, we found out that we were pregnant. Well, we didn’t know at the time that it was a boy, but we found out that we were pregnant. I had already been asking the hematologist and the pulmonologist, literally everyone. I was like, “So what happens when I get pregnant? Do I need to be on the blood thinner injections on day one? How does this work? What am I going to do?” 

They all thought I was crazy because they were like, “This chick almost just died. Why is she thinking about getting pregnant?” I was like, “Is this ruling me out of a VBAC?” I had all of the questions. I’m glad in retrospect that I asked them early. I was like, “It could be two years from now, but I want to know what I’m supposed to do on day one. I’m not going to be seeing a pulmonologist on a regular basis when my baby is two, so I might as well just ask now.” 

I had all of the information that I needed which was wonderful, but I struggled really hard with nursing her. All of my kids had tongue ties and it’s just been a difficult journey breastfeeding. Ginnie, the middle one, had colic and food allergies. I was down to seven foods that I could eat.

Meagan: That’s the worst. 

Abby: It was terrible. I was off eggs, soy, dairy, gluten, caffeine, tomatoes, and corn. 

Meagan: You weren’t really eating anything. 

Abby: I really wasn’t eating anything. I was losing my mind. I was pumping around the clock to try and get my supply back up. She was still not gaining weight and we just were like, “If this was working, I could maybe keep doing it,” but it wasn’t working and she wasn’t gaining weight, so I switched her to formula. Once I weaned, we pretty much immediately got pregnant. Very much a surprise but I feel like I need to share the beginning of this story because this is really the start of my VBAC story and I’m really going to try not to cry. 

I had a postpartum nurse when I was postpartum with Ginnie whom we had never met before, but she just adopted our family. She brought me Uncrustables in the postpartum room and those are the best. She was like, “Here’s candy from the nurses’ station.” I think you get a little extra attention when you’re a pulmonary embolism mom in the ICU, so she just adopted us and became a friend to our family after the baby was born. She called me a week before Mother’s Day and said, “Abby.” She was bawling. She told me that she hasn’t cried in three years but this was the first time she cried. She was bawling her eyes out and said, “Abby, I just had a dream about you. I have to tell you the dream.” 

As a nurse, she has seen, in her time, one stillbirth and it really deeply affected her obviously. She had a dream that she went to heaven and saw her stillborn baby girl as a teenager. She was holding three of my children. Carly did not know that I had three losses because she met me after Ginnie was born. She just knew I was a miscarriage mom and in her dream, the reason she was sobbing was because she thought that meant I was going to experience more loss. She was devastated. She was like, “Oh my gosh. She’s already been through so much. She just had a pulmonary embolism five months ago,” so this stillborn baby girl who was a teenager in the dream calmed her nerves and said, “No, no. These are supposed to be here but this little boy is coming down soon.”

Meagan: I’ve got the chills. 

Abby: This is a true story. It’s the craziest thing in the world. It’s just wild to me that this is part of my story but it is. She said that he looked just like Hadley, my five-year-old, and that his name was John which is our boy name and my dad’s name and my grandfather’s name. That was always going to be the name. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. 

Abby: We were like, “Okay. That’s really weird.” You think that’s weird. I think that’s weird. It is the reason that I took a pregnancy test. We weren’t trying so I wouldn’t have taken one. It was the faintest little line. Truly, so, so faint but because I knew that I needed to be on Lovenox day one and because I knew from my miscarriage history, I needed to be on progesterone day one, it was a Friday so I texted my midwife and I said, “I need HCG labs and I need you to call me in progesterone and Lovenox.” My HCG that day was very, very low. I think it was a 5 and the lowest considered viable pregnancy is a 7. They want it to double or triple by 48 hours from now. 

I went back on Monday. I started my progesterone and Lovenox on that Friday with a very faint test and a very low HCG and it was up to 77 on Monday. It was doubling or tripling in the appropriate amount of time. I kept going back and it kept going. He is sleeping in the other room right now, so he clearly stuck. I really contribute his life honestly to Carly’s dream and the fact that I never would have taken a pregnancy test. It was a Friday. I was able to be so proactive about the medicine and care that I needed. I knew when she told me the dream, I said, “I’m pregnant. This is going to be my VBAC.” I just knew it in my bones so intimately. I really don’t know how to explain it. It was just a soul-knowing. I just knew. 

She was like, “The dream wasn’t literal, Abby. I’m not saying you’re pregnant right now.” I was like, “Nope. I know.” I just knew. I just knew. People always say things like that, but that had never been my experience, especially trying to conceive. You’re always like, “Oh, I stubbed my toe. Is that a sign of pregnancy?” You’re looking for every little thing and this time it was like, “No. I’m pregnant.” We’ve wanted a boy the whole time and I was like, “This is going to be my boy and this is going to be my VBAC.” I just knew. 

So really, on day one I started fighting like hell for my VBAC because it was after two and I knew that I was going to need to basically be a psycho about it. I think that’s my biggest VBAC advice for people is that if you really want a VBAC, you have to kind of have to be a psycho about it because no one wants you to have a VBAC more than you want to have a VBAC. You need to advocate for yourself. I think a lot of people can take a sort of, “If it happens, it happens” attitude and that is fine if that is how you truly feel about it. If it happens, it happens but if you really, really, really want a VBAC, you have to really, really, really fight for your VBAC no matter how supportive your providers are, no matter how wonderful your doula is, it’s only you who is going to get you that birth. You’re the one who has to push the baby out. You’re the one who has to do all of the work even if there are people helping you. 

And I did day one. We would like a large family, so our position from the beginning of the pregnancy was, “Well, if this baby is a C-section, then are probably done.” I really don’t want to put myself through more than three C-sections. The other two were so deeply traumatic for everyone in our family. I can’t imagine recovering from a C-section with three or four children. We are going to be done. So that really lit a fire under me to fight for it even more. Even if we do decide now to be done, I didn’t want surgery to be what decided the size of my family. That was something I felt really strongly about. 

I started chiropractic on day one. I started doing all of the things. I took obviously all of my medicines and I just took really good care of myself and my body. I think bodywork played a huge part in my pregnancy this time around. We found out at 20 weeks at my anatomy scan that the baby was breech. I’d never had a breech baby. All of my babies were OP before, so I was like, “Okay. Surely this is 20 weeks. He’s obviously going to flip at some point.” He really didn’t. He was breech until 35, so I went to a Webster chiro twice a week. I did moxibustion. I did all of the Spinning Babies. I hung upside down off my couch 700 times a minute and did everything you could possibly do, handstands in the pool to flip a breech baby. Really, nothing was working. 

I went to a bodyworker who was like, I don’t really even know how to explain what he does, it’s something between chiropractic and massage therapy, but he tried to manually move the baby for me. It never worked. Nothing happened. They told me I couldn’t have an ECV because I was a VBAC after two and my last birth was so recent and I had an anterior placenta. 

Meagan: All of the cards were stacked against you. 

Abby: So many cards. I basically was like, “I have this deadline. If I made it to 39, they’re going to schedule me if he doesn’t flip by then.” It was really dark honestly because I had that deep knowledge the whole time that this was going to be my VBAC. I really started to doubt that and say, “I’ve had such shit luck before now.” Sorry if I’m not allowed to cuss on the podcast. 

Meagan: You’re just fine. 

Abby: Maybe my terrible luck is going to continue and it wasn’t a true feeling, it was just a desire. He finally flipped after a lot of tears and a lot of, “I think I’m going to have to have a C-section.” I went to birth trauma therapy for the whole time. We talked a lot about, “Okay, well what happens if you do have to have a C-section? How are you going to be okay with it if that is the outcome?” He eventually flipped which, praise God, was amazing but the minute he flipped, he was LOA. I have never had a baby in a proper birth position. That is intense, girlfriend. He was down low doing what he was supposed to be doing and I was like, “Ow. This is a lot of pressure all of the time.” It was just constant pressure. It felt like a lot of contractions. They were obviously prodromal, but with my experience with Hadley, I just ignored them the whole time. 

I was like, “La, la, la, la, la. Nothing is happening.” He flipped at 35.5, maybe 36. The contractions really picked up right away. I never had a cervical check, so I don’t know this but I have a feeling that I was walking around at a 3 or a 4 for a while. I was having very regular contractions, not necessarily timeable, but they were real for sure and doing something for sure. His position was doing something also. He was putting pressure down low and dilating me in my opinion. 

At about, I guess it was 38, everyone kept saying, my doula kept saying, “I think you’re going to go early. I really think you’re not going to make it.” I was like, “I’m going to go 42. Nobody is going to stop me. I will do whatever I need to do.” 

Meagan: Mentally prepared. 

Abby: I will have a 42-hour labor, okay? I will have a 42-hour labor if I need to have a 42-hour labor. I will do all of the things. They were all like, “No. You’re not going to make it.” But then, when you keep not having the baby, you’re like, “This is making me crazy.” Prodromal labor is insane. It’s such a mental game. It’s just like, “Is this it? Is this it? Is this it?” especially because I’d never gone into labor naturally before. But when it was it, I knew. There’s really no denying it. I went to the chiropractor in the afternoon. 

I’m so excited. I’m about to start telling my VBAC story. Sorry I’m long-winded, but this right here is truly what I’ve been dreaming of for a really long time, so thank you for giving me this space to share my story. 

Meagan: Yes. I love it.

Abby: I went to the chiropractor on a Monday at 4:00 and I said, “I think I’m going to go early. I’ve been having all of these contractions.” I had one while I was standing there talking to her. She actually encouraged me to get a membrane sweep. I denied them the whole time with all of my midwives. I was just like, “No, no, no. I’m not doing that.” She was like, “Hey, I went to 42 and I wish I had started the process a little earlier.” It made me doubt all of the prodromal labor I had been having because I was like, “Why do you think I need a membrane sweep? I’m obviously having a baby in the next five days.”

Meagan: Yeah. You’re like, “My body’s working.” 

Abby: Exactly. That’s what I thought. I was like, “I don’t know about that.” But I had a contraction while I was standing there talking to her, checking out, and paying. She said, “Are you having a contraction right now?” I was like, “Yeah. This is just what it’s been like lately.” I went home and was annoyed by the contractions. I drank a Body Armour with some electrolytes and took a bath because that usually slows the prodromal down. I had five contractions in the bath. I was like, “Hmm.” So I texted my doula and was like, “Usually when I take a bath, it stops the contractions. Surely this means that something is happening.”

I didn’t mention that for the last two weeks once he flipped his head down, I started bleeding pretty regularly. I’m on blood thinners, so I could get a papercut and it would be like the red sea, so it was not all that concerning. My doctors were like, “Well, it’s not your uterus. The baby is okay. You would be in pain if you had a rupture. Everything seems okay.” 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Abby: My poor doula, I texted her a lot of pictures being like, “Is this bloody show? Is this bloody show? Do you think that this is bloody show?” But finally, on the night that I took a bath and had contractions in the bath, she said, “That looks like blood show.” I was like, “All right. Okay. Now we’re cooking with gas. Something is happening.” 

I got out of the bath and was very annoyed. We had a long day. We have two other kids and my husband and I were both just so tired and wanted to go to bed. He said, “Can I make you some dinner?” I don’t think I had eaten anything. He said, “I have a couple of steaks. Can I make you some steaks?” I was like, “That sounds awesome.” I was like, “I’m just going to sit in bed. I’m going to watch New Girl and ignore these contractions and eat some steak.” I attempted to do that, but the contractions were starting to pick up and I couldn’t eat. I had to eat in between contractions and chew and swallow. I was not enjoying the steak at all. 

I lay down and I felt a pop. I had experienced my water breaking with Ginnie and I was like, “That was my water.” I texted my doula and said, “I think my water just broke.” She had been fielding all of these texts from me for the last two weeks about the blood and contractions and blah, blah, blah so it’s not that she didn’t believe me, but she was just like, “Okay, so tell me what makes you think that your water just broke.” I said, “Well, I didn’t pee.” She was like, “Okay.” I got up out of bed. My husband had just put down a piddle pad underneath the sheets because he was like, “You know, just in case. You’re having all of these contractions.” I didn’t want to totally ruin the mattress, so I hopped up out of bed really quickly because I wanted to go back to sleep after my water had broken. I was like, “Even if there’s a piddle pad, I don’t want the sheets to be wet because I want to sleep in them.” 

It was a flood. It was very much my water. I was like, “Okay. Nope. That’s okay. Things are happening.” And things really did start to happen so, so quickly. You know, as a doula, you have all of these numbers in your head of, “Okay, so there’s 5-1-1 and you call the doula when it’s 5-1-1 and then you go to the hospital when it’s 4-1-1 and your contractions are a minute long and not slowing down in intensity.” That was very much not my experience. 

It was 0 to 60. I think the prodromal that I had been having just ramped my body right up and so there was no real labor. 

Meagan: That’s the thing. Prodromal labor can do that because your body has been working. We call it prodromal labor but it’s not like your body wasn’t just doing anything. 

Abby: It did. It felt like it was doing nothing but it clearly was doing work. 

Meagan: It was. Yes. So listeners, if you have prodromal labor, seriously, just be on the lookout. Sometimes when labor does start and you’ve had a history of prodromal labor, it can start right out of the gate. 

Abby: It was aggressive. 

Meagan: Yes. 

Abby: So basically, immediately my contractions were two minutes apart and at first, they were 40 seconds. My doula was like, “You know, they can start out intense and maybe taper off a little bit.” That is not the direction that it went. They started ramping up in intensity. I watched about four minutes of New Girl and was like, “That’s it.” And we were so tired. I just kept saying, “I want to do this tomorrow. I really just want it to wait.” 

With my middle child, I had been able to go to sleep after my water broke. I slept all night in my own bed and it just ramped up intensely so quickly. I hadn’t washed my hair when I took a bath. It was just a soaky kind of bath, so I was like, “I’m going to go take a shower.” I wanted to wash my hair in the shower. I felt like then my doula could braid it and it would look cute in the morning and I’ll just have clean hair. If I ended up with a C-section, I wouldn’t be able to wash my hair for five days, so I might as well just do it now. 

My contractions picked up in the shower and I remember getting back onto my bed and being like, “I don’t know how I’m going to get dressed.” 

Meagan: So intense. 

Abby: So intense. I just was expecting, even with the second birth, the contractions with the Pit were scheduled essentially. They were intense, but they were scheduled, so you get a break in between them. You get to, “Okay. Let me take a deep breath. Let me reassess.” There was no time for reassessing. Honestly, it was really scary. I have to be honest and say that I’ve had a lot of people say, “I’m so glad you got your dream VBAC.” I was like, “I don’t think I would use those words.” I got a VBAC and I’m so glad that I did, but it was really, really scary because it was just so intense so quickly. Part of the birth plan was to stay at home for as long as possible. You don’t want to go too soon and have them tell you that you’re 2 centimeters and all of a sudden, you’re stuck at a hospital, especially with your water broken. 

I just remember struggling to get dressed and telling my husband, “I think we need to go to the hospital.” He was like, “It’s literally my job to tell her not to go to the hospital. I have one job and it’s to not let her go there.” 

Meagan: It’s to say no. 

Abby: I’m not supposed to do that. These are very specific instructions. So he called my doula and was like, “She’s begging for you. She’s really starting to moan through them and not be able to get sentences out.” She said, “Let me listen to her.” He put me on speaker and she said, “I’m going to meet you at the hospital. I think it’s time to go.” I was like, “Thank God someone is letting me go to the hospital so I could get an epidural.” I was ready for this show to be over. I was like, “If I get an epidural, they’ll let me take a nap.” All I wanted was to go back to sleep. I just wanted to go back to sleep. 

We got in the car. My friend was coming to keep our children and just sleep on our couch while we were going to the hospital and we were about to leave before she even got here. They were well asleep. It was 10:00 at night, but we were like, “We have to just leave the front door open for you.” She ended up making it. She saw me in the front yard and she was like, “Brian, do you think she’s in transition right now?” He was like, “I don’t know but this is really intense.” The car ride was horrible. We only live 9 minutes from the hospital, but it was just so intense, and just no breaks. It was scary and so painful. 

I follow pain-free birth on Instagram and they are liars. It is not pain-free. I just don’t want anyone to listen to this podcast and be like, “Pain-free is what I experienced” because it is not. It is excruciating. You always think you are a badass until you’re not. I was like, “No. Get me an epidural right now. I am dying. I will do anything. Just send me the anesthesiologist right now.” So by the time we made it to the hospital 9 minutes later, I was screaming. Screaming like in the movies and we always joke as my husband and I are now birthy people, I’ve transformed him to the dark side. 

Meagan: I love it so much. It all started with the Business of Being Born. 

Abby: Exactly. 

Meagan: Second date. 

Abby: Oh, literally. We always make fun of Hollywood movies where this woman’s water breaks and she is screaming in the hospital 20 minutes later and that is exactly what happened to me. It was so instant. My water broke at 8:30. We called my doula at 9:30 and she said, “Holy crap. Go to the hospital.” We got to the hospital. Oh, I wish I had the exact timeline. I might have to look. We got to the hospital and I was screaming bloody murder getting out of the car. I don’t even know how I walked out of the car to get to where I needed to be. 

The woman at the front desk heard me screaming and ran to get a wheelchair for me and run me up to the OB floor because this poor woman was like, “We are not having a baby in the lobby today.” 

Meagan: Yeah. I’m sure. 

Abby: She truly was like, “Go. This is my job. I’m going.” She ran me up to the OB floor and my doula apparently pulled in right behind us. She was on the floor but heard me screaming through the elevator from the 8th floor. I was screaming Meagan. It was a lot. I feel like I owe a lot of people some cookies at the hospital. My midwife said that I came in hot. 

Meagan: You came in hot. 

Abby: I really did. They were running me down the hall and this poor, I will never forget, this poor girl at the triage desk was very obviously new and she asked me if I could fill out paperwork. I was like, “Do I look like I could fill out paperwork right now?” I was sideways in the wheelchair with my leg up yelling at everyone. I just was like, “No. I will not be filling out paperwork right now.” 

They took me to triage which honestly was BS. I was like, “I’m obviously having a baby. Why do I need to go to triage?” But they saw me right away which was very helpful. I saw a midwife I had never met before which made me nervous because as a VBAC mom, you’re like, “I want to know that it’s the right people.”

Meagan: Right. 

Abby: But around the corner comes– they tried to get an IV in my arm. I was flailing. There was just no way that that was going to happen which was awesome. I didn’t want an IV anyway. But around the corner comes a student midwife who has been with me through my whole pregnancy. She shadowed a bunch of different midwives and I saw her several times. We actually had a really wonderful conversation. I guess one of the times the baby was breech at the doctor and I told her about my birth trauma and how difficult it was for me and all of the reasons we didn’t want another C-section and she just gave me the most trauma-informed care. She just sat and listened to me well beyond the time of the appointment. She made friends with my five-year-old during the appointments. She was just such a light.

The midwife came in and she said, “Hi, I’m Barb and I have a student with me today.” I had literally just been screaming at everyone in the room and I said, “Is it Cara?” and it was her. I gave her a big hug. She was like, “It’s me!” and it was the most joyful moment of a really, really intense birth. It was 3 and a half hours from start to finish. It was so, so fast. It was a very intense, honestly scary time but seeing Cara was just like, “Okay. You are a safe person for me right now.” It felt like, “I know that you know how badly I want this and I know that you are going to do everything in your power to help me get it and why this is important to our family.” It was just like, “Okay.”

But I still didn’t calm down. I was not calm. None of it was a calm experience at all. There was just no time to emotionally switch from sitting in my bed watching New Girl to I’m at a hospital having a baby. It was just so quick that I couldn’t wrap my head around the change in my life situation. They checked me and it was Cara who checked me, the student midwife. She said, “Well, you’re an 8.5.” I was like, “Okay.” My husband was like, “What? I was not supposed to come to the hospital,” and then he was like, “Oh my gosh. Thank God I came to the hospital. I’m so glad I’m not delivering a baby on our toilet right now.” That was not what he wanted at all. 

She said, “You can start pushing though.” No one ever told me that I was 10 which I thought was interesting. She basically said, “If you’re feeling pushy, you can push.” I was like, “I just want this baby out of me because I want this to be over. I’m very much done with this process.” So they took me to an L&D room and tried to switch me from a triage bed to the regular bed and I truly was in so much pain with no breaks in the contractions that I was like, “No. I can’t even get on the bed.” They were like, “Trust me. You don’t want to be on the triage bed to deliver a baby. Try to get over there.” 

Every movement that I made felt so challenging and so painful. They asked if I wanted to– I went on my hands and knees and they were like, “Is that comfortable?” I was like, “Do I look comfortable?” It was just the most erroneous question. I was like, “What part of me screaming makes you think that anything about this is comfortable right now?” Of course, it was too late to get an epidural, so when they tell me that it was basically time to push, I was like, “I don’t want that. I just want to take a nap. I just want an epidural.” When she said 8, I was like, “Oh no. I have to do this. I have to be here and I have to do this.” 

Obviously, in retrospect, I’m very glad that it was too late and that I did it, but it was truly just so, so intense. Again, just how quickly it happened just did not allow time for me to even understand what was happening. But I started pushing when we got in L&D and the midwife who was very old school, I’m not going to guess her age but she’s older, got in my face. I’m an Alabama football fan, so I kept saying that I needed someone to Nick Saban me in labor. I needed, “All right, Abby. Here’s the deal. See you at the finish line.” 

I had never met her before. She totally got in my face and Nick Saban’d me. She said, “Abby.” I said, “I just want the baby out. I just want this to be over. I just want to get the baby out.” She was like, “We can get the baby out. You can get the baby out, but you have to stop screaming. You’re letting all of your power out of the top of your body by screaming. You have to channel that. Take a deep breath and push down.” I just felt totally incapable of that, but I was again, so over it that I just was like, “Okay. I guess I’m just going to do whatever this random lady says.” 

I started pushing and less than 30 minutes later, my son was born. I was at the hospital for 48 minutes before he was born. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. 

Abby: Truly like a movie. It was just the fastest thing I’ve ever experienced. It was really scary and apparently, it was also really scary for him because he came out not breathing. 

Meagan: Fast transition. 

Abby: Yes. It was so fast. Everything was so fast. It’s officially precipitous labor, the timeframe that I experienced. He was just totally unresponsive. My doula said that she saw his chest rising and falling when they took him away, but you want the pull the baby up on your chest experience. I was so shocked when I pushed him out. Pushing was so hard. It was the hardest thing I’ve ever done in my life and they told me that I could see his head. I touched his head and I was like, “Oh my gosh, there is a baby coming out of my vagina. I can’t believe that this is happening.” But the endorphins that you sort of expect to follow didn’t really happen because we were panicking. 

My husband and I were like, bawling and praying out loud and just were so nervous that the baby was not going to be okay. My doula said that it was less than three minutes, but of course, it felt like an eternity. It was terrible. There were eight people around him on the table and oxygen. It was just a very medical experience. Again, I’ve had a lot of weird birth things and when I first envisioned being a mom, I envisioned a home birth really. All of my births have had reasons that they needed to be at a hospital. 

With Ginnie, praise the Lord that I was on an operating table when I threw a pulmonary embolism and that there was a cardiac anesthesiologist that knew. Honestly, had I had a vaginal birth with Ginnie, that pulmonary embolism would have flowed up into my lungs walking around my culdesac on a Tuesday and I wouldn’t be here. That’s just not the kind of thing that you can come back from. They are literally called the silent killer for that reason. 

It’s hard to admit that the way that I wanted things to happen was not the way that they happened, but I am so thankful for all of the medical people and all of the things that happened the way they happened because my children are safe and I’m safe. That doesn’t make things any less traumatizing if you’ve experienced trauma, but it’s just really overwhelming to think about how things could have happened had I been more stubborn or insistent on a home birth this time or whatever. So I think my biggest shift obviously once the baby was okay and everything, I had a second-degree tear which was no big deal. She stitched me up. That took forever. I was kind of over it by that point. 

By the time she was done and they had handed him to me and everything was fine, people had cleared out of the room, I had to go to the bathroom. I had so much water during labor. I have a big Stanley cup and I just kept asking my husband to give me water in between every single contraction. I was like, “Water, water, water.” It was the only thing I said for an hour. I was like, “I really have to go to the bathroom” and the nurse just looked at me and was like, “Okay. It’s over there.” I was like, “I can go to the bathroom? I can just stand up and go to the bathroom?” And I did. 

She was like, “I can help you.” She wasn’t trying to be rude or anything. She was like, “Okay, yeah. We can totally go.” I was like, “No, I think I can go to the bathroom.” Totally unmedicated. I had no IVs. The continuous fetal monitoring did happen, but it was someone just holding. They didn’t even have time to put anything on me. They just held it down at the bottom of my belly. I was pretty unencumbered and by the time I was done, I could just get up and go to the bathroom. I took a shower in the postpartum room the next day and everything was just like night and day. 

I have already taken walks with my family. I took the baby out of the house yesterday by myself. I carried his car seat by myself. The recovery is, my birth was not a dream birth. It was terrifying and I’m glad it’s over. I’m glad I did it. It’s amazing and empowering, so don’t hear me saying that it wasn’t amazing, but the postpartum experience is what has solidified for me that it was worth every second because for three and a half intense hours, I don’t have to have four-plus really terrible weeks trying to recover from a major abdominal surgery, so it was worth every very, very intense second. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. 

Abby: I know, I’m sorry. 

Meagan: Well congratulations. 

Abby: Thank you. It’s a very long story. 

Meagan: Congratulations. It’s okay. I love it. I love it so much. I appreciate your sharing. I could just feel the intensity. 

Abby: Oh, it was intense. 

Meagan: I’m sure for everybody it was just like, “Ahh!” So much was happening and those precipitous births, just recently recording, I think it was last week’s episode was accidentally at home. Sometimes there are these babies that just come and they are ready to go. I really appreciate you sharing your story. 

Abby: I’m so glad. I’m so glad. It was really such a joy and overwhelming to be here. Honestly, thank you. I feel like what you do is just such a service to women. When you have a C-section, you might think that your body is incapable or not able to do what you thought it might be able to do and it’s really disempowering to feel that way. So to hear these stories is such a gift. I just ate them up like candy. I listened to The VBAC Link on the day that I went into labor and I was going on a walk before I went to the chiropractor. It just gave me the power to say, “I think I really can do this.” And I did. So thank you for what you do. 

Meagan: And now, you’re one of those stories. 

Abby: I’m one of those stories.

Meagan: Before we go, I just wanted to share with everybody if you guys want to go find Abby on social media, again, she’s not actively doula-ing right now, but I can see it in the future. 

Abby: Definitely. 

Meagan: She’s at @AbbyKraftMac which I absolutely love.

Abby: Yes. Kraft with a K. 

Meagan: Yep. Kraft with a K or abbykraftmac.com. We’ll make sure to be tagging you today on Instagram and all of the things. So thank you again so much for being here. 

Abby: Thank you, friend. I’m so thankful. 

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

We are so excited to be joined by Mikaella as our guest and our dear Julie as a cohost today! Mikaella’s VBAC story is one of redemption, healing, and embracing the unexpected. 

By allowing herself to recognize that her Cesarean birth was traumatic, Mikaella was able to begin her healing journey and prepare for her VBAC. As her birth progressed, plans changed from a faraway hospital to her local hospital to a fast and furious birth at home! 

Julie, Mikaella, and Meagan share thoughts on the importance of acknowledging our traumas and how to avoid comparing them to others. 

Additional Links

Mikaella’s Instagram

Clark Film and Photo

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Meagan: Good morning and welcome to The VBAC Link or maybe it’s the afternoon or evening or I don’t even know. Whenever it is that you are listening, welcome to The VBAC Link. This is Meagan, your host, and guess what, you guys? We have Julie today as a cohost!

Julie: Yay! Hi. 

Meagan: It’s always so fun to have Julie on and today is actually one of her own clients which is super fun. I love when we have a doula client on the podcast because you can just connect with the story and people are bouncing back and forth, so it is so fun. She is here from Utah, so we are all Utahns today here on the podcast. 

We’re going to jump into a review, and then I’m going to tell you more about our guest Mikaella. 

Julie: Yeah, I’m so excited to be here. I was a little nervous this morning. I’m not going to lie. It’s so strange being on here as a guest instead of a regular host. I don’t know. It’s just this weird little thing, but also I wanted to clarify that Mikaella is actually a birth photography and video client of mine. She had a separate doula, Jenessa who is incredible. But she’s going to go into that more in her story, I’m sure about it. 

I do have a review and I love this review. It’s incredible. It was by springr and the title of the review is, “Wow, Just Wow.” I love that. She says, “I’m what I like to consider a still pretty new mama, but I’m also a C-section mom. For a while, I really thought that’s what I would always be. I hit some pretty dark places, but this podcast has given me light. I listen to multiple episodes a day and have a long stream of notes on my phone.” Let me add, I’m not pregnant again, but that’s how prepared I want to be when we do get there for our next baby. This podcast has given me my first tool to get there. Recently, as quarantine life has become the new normal, I’ve almost always got an episode buzzing in my ear. My husband says I’ve got a bit of an addiction. I snapped back really quick and said, ‘I’ve got hope. It helps me believe in myself.’ He quickly got quiet.” 

Meagan: Oh my gosh, I love that. 

Julie: Yeah. “These ladies answer personal messages asking for help. I just can’t say enough good things. They are that good. This podcast is just that good. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.” 

This sounds familiar actually, this review. It might be somebody that has contacted me and wants to hire me as a doula when she gets pregnant. Now I’m just thinking because that review did sound a little bit familiar. Anyways, we’ve been talking for a bit of a year now and she’s not even pregnant. Anyways, it might be. Who knows, it might be completely random and somebody else but when she said personal messages, I was like, “Oh, maybe.” Thank you so much to whoever left it. 

Meagan: Maybe. Well, I love that review. And you know what? That’s okay if you are addicted to a podcast. I have podcasts that I’m addicted to and I always have an AirPod that I actually have lost now. There is one missing because apparently, I can’t put it right back in the case. I just sit there and I listen to my podcast in one ear and then do life in the other while I’m doing things and that’s okay. I love it though. I love that this podcast gives you hope. That is exactly why this podcast is the podcast. That is exactly why it is here. It’s to give people hope, inspiration, and motivation, and to empower you to make choices that are best for you for your birthing day. So thank you so much for that review. 

Meagan: Okay, Mikaella. We are so excited to have Mikaella on. 

Mikaella: Hi. 

Meagan: Hi, yes. Thank you so much for taking the time today. You have a lot of things. You’re a photographer, right as well? 

Mikaella: Yes, yep. 

Meagan: Okay, and then you have three kiddos and you have been a 911 dispatcher for five years. Love that. That’s really cool. I love that you say trash reality TV is your guilty pleasure. That is so funny. I love that you also love Taco Bell because I have this weakness for Taco Bell too. In fact, we just went on a weekend trip for my daughter’s gymnastics meet in St. George, Utah and we got a taco from St. George. You guys, it’s the best Taco Bell taco I’ve ever had. Like seriously, St. George does it right. So when you are in St. George next time, you should go to Taco Bell. 

Julie: Meagan and Mikaella, you guys. I’m sorry but Taco Bell is not very good. 

Meagan: Do you know what? It depends on the Taco Bell because the Taco Bell by my house sucks. But St. George, holy cow. Even my husband was like, “That was the best Taco Bell ever.” I was like, “Right?” So I love that. I love that so much and I’m so excited to dive into this story because I love hearing the big baby stories. It sounds like you heard, “Big baby, big baby, big baby” for so long and so many people telling you that you’re not a good candidate for VBAC, and then boom. 

Julie: Boom. 

Mikaella: Basically, that’s the best way to put it. 

Meagan: So let’s turn the time over to you to share your stories and how this big baby and a non-VBAC candidate mom rocked her VBAC. 

Mikaella: So I have three kids. I have a five-year-old Claire, a three-year-old Boston, and then Charlie is my VBAC baby. I feel like Charlie’s VBAC story really starts with 21-year-old first-time mom Mikaella who knew nothing. I was along for the ride. I had no interest in pursuing any sort of birth education or anything like that especially with my mom’s own traumatic birth history so I was like, “Whatever happens happens. It’s fine.” For my first birth, that was okay. It wasn’t that big of a deal. I do wish I had been equipped with more knowledge, but it was smooth sailing for the most part. 

She came on her own the morning of my scheduled induction so I was already in labor when I got there anyway. My body was doing what it was supposed to do. She ended up being vacuum assisted because she was posterior and then it ended up being a trend with all of my babies with them being posterior so that was a really big worry I had with Charlie. 

It just felt like a normal birth experience. 

And then Boston because Claire’s was so normal, I went in feeling like, “Oh, nope. I’ve got it, no problem.” Then I was talked into an induction because I was along for the ride. I didn’t know the ins and outs and the cascade of interventions and things like that. I was induced about a week early with him. Both he and Claire, my labors were about 12 hours long with lots and lots and lots of pushing. But with him, I felt completely out of control from being induced and having my dura nicked with the epidural. Then I had some major blood loss that was still unexplained there in the middle which was pretty traumatic. With him, I pushed for hours as well and he was just not coming out. He was so stuck. 

My provider was not pushy at all actually. He was very, “Here are your options. You can keep pushing. We can try a vacuum with him too, but if he gets stuck, it’s going to be more complicated with him being farther down the birth canal.” 

So we opted for a C-section with him. I don’t know. I think I reacted really strongly to the extra medication because I was numb from the chin down. It was a very unpleasant experience which just added the whole out-of-control feeling. I went in there and as I’m feeling them tugging, I didn’t feel any pain which was great. I was feeling the tugging and then everybody starts laughing. I was like, “This is not the time to be laughing. What is going on?” They pulled him out and were like, “He’s huge.” He was. He was a 12-pound baby. 

There was probably no way I was actually going to get him out on my own, but ever since having him, everyone was like, “Oh you just make big babies,” because my first baby was 8 pounds, 9 ounces. He was 12 pounds. 

Julie: And he’s still such a big kid. 

Mikaella: He is a really big kid. 

Julie: He is so cute. 

Mikaella: He’s bigger than all of the other kids in my preschooler’s class and he’s only three. He’s just big like my whole mom’s side of the family. So after his birth, it took a long time to be able to talk about it out loud. I posted a really watered-down and foggy version on Facebook as a birth announcement post, but I don’t even remember writing half of it. I just remember feeling traumatized but not that the trauma was valid because I knew people with worse stories and that was something that I had to come to grips with. My trauma was still valid despite it not being maybe as bad as somebody else’s. 

Meagan: Totally, yeah. 

Mikaella: I knew we wanted more kids, but there was so much anxiety surrounding the decision of when to have more kids so there was a little bit more of a gap between Boston and Charlie. I was still pretty afraid of birth until I had a life-changing experience attending a birth as a photographer. It was actually for Jenessa who ended up being my doula later down the road but it was this beautiful, intimate home birth. I found it so healing. She was singing through her contractions and the atmosphere was just so sweet and loving. She was definitely in charge and she knew what she wanted. She was a practical stranger at that point, but it was still such a positive experience to watch her have such a positive birth experience. It was life-changing. 

So then when I got pregnant again, I knew I did not want a C-section just based on how the last one had felt. I didn’t even want an epidural based on the spinal headache I had gotten with my dura being nicked. I felt like having the epidural and not being able to move around during labor contributed a lot to both of my babies getting stuck, so I felt like being able to move in labor was going to be really important to me. 

My OB who delivered Boston was actually super supportive but I wasn’t allowed to VBAC at the hospital. Where I live is a really rural area. He said he would send me north whenever I went into labor, but I really wanted to know my birth team. With that it option, it was just, “You get who you get and hopefully they’re supportive of a VBAC too,” which I think we’ve all come to realize is hard to find VBAC-supportive providers. 

Meagan: Very, very, yeah.

Mikaella: So when I was looking for a provider, I went through so many, but I began my research. I met with multiple providers and I just kept hearing, “You make big babies. You make big babies,” because Claire was 8 pounds, 9 ounces, and Boston was 12 pounds. “You just make big babies and it would just be easier for you to have a C-section. Here are all of the risks and complications of a VBAC,” but no one wants to talk about the complications of a repeat C-section, right? 

This one particular OB, I don’t know if I can shout him out because he might be really upset. I want to make sure that no one else looking for a VBAC goes to him. He didn’t even give me the decency of a conversation before completely shutting me down. I had gone in. I spoke with the nurse. She was like, “Whatever you want, you get. You are the birthing mom.” I was feeling on cloud 9. I was even texting my husband, “This is going so well,” as she was checking me in. I guess the casual conversation that I was having with her about my birth history, she relayed to him in the five-minute span before he came into the room and that was all it took for him to decide that I was not a good candidate for a VBAC at all. 

He didn’t want to talk about the preparations I had made, that I had a doula, that I didn’t feel as big as I was with Boston. None of that even mattered. 

Meagan: He just put a label on you and was done.

Mikaella: Immediately. Immediately. There was no conversation about any of it. Not about my birth history. Even my original OB who delivered my last baby was like, “No, you can do that. That’s fine,” but it just said that it made him and his staff uncomfortable. I ended up at Valley Women’s Health, the Orem Midwives’ Group at 35 weeks pregnant and I just stuck with them because they were the first ones to not tell me no right away. 

There were still some things that I was hesitant about. There was a lot of, “You’ll have to do this and this and this. These are the requirements, but sure. We’ll try,” kind of thing. I did, however, have to go through a VBAC consultation at Utah Valley where they all discuss the risks of a VBAC. Nothing about the risks of a repeat C-section of course. They had me sign all of those forms and then had me do a growth scan which showed Charlie being about three weeks ahead. She was going to be absolutely massive according to them. 

I did not feel big at all at least compared to my last two. I was more active in this labor. I was eating healthily. I was doing all of the stretches and sitting in the right positions to make sure that she wasn’t posterior too. I just felt like I could do it. It really helped to feel like I was going to be in charge of this birth. My doula was very, very supportive all the way through. She was just like, “No. You’ve got this. You can do this. I know you and I know your willpower,” so she was a huge support that way and as well as my husband. He’s never not backed me on anything. He’s great. 

I should also add that the hospital where I was going to deliver is about an hour and a half away from me. Only like what, five minutes away from you, Julie? 

Julie: Yeah, it’s about 20 minutes from me, but super far from you. 

Mikaella: Okay, you’re a little bit further. I was thinking it was only about five minutes away. I was preparing to labor in the car. They had been like, “Are you sure you don’t want to be induced?” I was like, “Nope. I don’t want to intervene with this at all. My body is going to do its own process.” I was mentally preparing myself to labor for an hour and a half in our van. I had my husband get the puppy pads ready and line the bottom of the van with the puppy pads. 

I woke up to my strongest contraction at about 4:00 AM and that’s when I began timing them. I got in the shower to see if they would get closer together and then they started getting closer together really fast. The timeline is kind of foggy, but the contractions were so strong. I texted my doula at 5:30 letting her know that my contractions were about 5-7 minutes apart and that I was going to try and leave soon. She was going to have plenty of time because she was right next to the hospital, but in reality, I had only maybe two more contractions that far apart. 

It was just happening and happening really fast. I called my mom. She was getting ready to come over and I woke up Preston and had him load up the car while I was getting dressed. I do actually wish I had had him with me during those moments, but at that point, I thought we were still going to make the hour-and-a-half drive to the hospital, so I was like, “No. Get this. Get my bag. Get my charger. Throw all of the things in there,” the last minute things and grab whatever. Just throw it in the van.

So he was running around like crazy trying to make sure he’s got everything. I couldn’t even get my pants on in between the contractions. I was sitting in the same spot just powering through these contractions. I remember thinking, “There’s no way that I can do this unmedicated. I’m going to get that epidural as soon as I get to the hospital,” because all that I’ve heard in all of my research is that when you think you can’t do it anymore, that’s when you’re at the end. I was like, “Well, I just barely started. How am I supposed to make it any farther than this?” and not realizing that I was actually right there at the end with how quick it was all going. 

Meagan: Oh my goodness. 

Mikaella: Yeah. It was about 30 minutes later that I knew we were not going to make it up to Provo. I called my doula and I think that was all I said. “I think we’re not going to make it to the hospital.” She’s like, “Oh, okay. Well, get to Sanpete Valley,” the one that’s only 20 minutes away. “They can’t force you to do anything,” because that was my biggest worry. I was like, “I don’t want them to just throw me on a table as soon as I get there.” 

That contraction that I had on the phone with her was actually the only one that I was able to have my husband doing counterpressure for. I was just bracing myself against the tub. He’s doing his best because we really thought that I was going to have a doula there. She would be able to walk him through things. I wasn’t the most prepared. I’m not going to lie as far as the actual coping mechanisms, I think, that I was going to use. I had a metal comb that is used for dog grooming that I was clutching in my hand as tight as possible. 

Meagan: Powerful. 

Mikaella: Yep. I loved having that thing. That was a godsend honestly.  My mom arrived at about 6:15 and I was just holding onto her. It’s funny because the two births I attended were so peaceful and one like I said, Jenessa was singing through her contractions. It was a beautiful environment and then another friend of mine was low moaning. It was a quiet atmosphere still and I am just screaming. You could even hear it in the background of the 911 call that my husband had to make. I’m just losing it in the background. I’m like, “This is not the calm, cool atmosphere that I was expecting.”

But my mom got there. I had a super strong contraction and I was just feeling the irresistible urge to push. When I sat back up after that contraction, I felt my water which was bulging and that’s when I had to tell my husband to call 911. He was like, “Oh, okay. This is happening right now and right here. We are not making it to the hospital.” 

Because I am a 911 dispatcher, the operator that he called is my coworker, so I knew the instructions she was going to give me. I was not about to lay on my back even though she was about to tell me to. He kept telling me, “She says that you’ve got to get on my back.” “I am not getting on my back. That is not what I want to do right now. Just tell her to get the ambulance here. We’ll make it work.”

At that moment, I made it from my bedroom floor back to my bathroom which is the tiniest room in my house. I don’t know why I felt like I needed to be in there. But the EMT that lives around the corner arrived as I was crowning. I’m holding onto my mom. I did finally end up laying down, but she arrived as I’m crowning. With one push, Charlie’s head comes out and my EMT unwraps the cord that was wrapped around her neck. It was wrapped around twice so she was super nervous– the EMT was. 

Another push and she was out. She was super pink. She was a really healthy color. What was really cool was that this whole time, despite it not being my plan at all, there was no fear. There was never a sense of, “This is going wrong.” There was a little bit of panic and there were a lot of self-doubts there in that first hour, but there was no fear. I just was able to trust my body and know what I was doing despite none of it going to plan whatsoever which was a really cool experience. 

Then they load me up into the ambulance. They took me to the hospital which was where I delivered my placenta. We actually were only there for six hours because, for some reason when you don’t deliver at the hospital, they’re like, “Oh, you can actually go home,” which seemed backward to me but I wasn’t about to fight it. Jenessa and Julie arrived around the same time. I didn’t even call Julie myself. I just told Jenessa, I was like, “Please call Julie and let her know what’s going on.” 

The rest is history. It was just the most amazing redemptive birth. I got basically everything I wanted. I had written out a list of birth goals that I had wanted and on that list was intermittent monitoring which, I didn’t end up having any monitoring. Getting my VBAC was super important which I got. I didn’t have to have an epidural. I didn’t even have to get an IV. It was just completely and 100% me and that felt incredibly powerful. 

It’s been a really, really cool story to share especially to other moms who are looking to do VBACs and stuff like that, especially after I was told, “You make big babies. You make big babies.” 

This was another big baby. She was a 9.5-pound baby who came out on my bathroom floor with no tearing whatsoever. I did that.