The Systemic Way – Détails, épisodes et analyse

In this episode we speak with no other than Dr. Jaako Seikkula on this latest bookWhy Dialogue Does Cure: Explaining What Makes Dialogue Unprecedentedly Effective in Difficult Crises (2025). The book presents the core principles of Open Dialogue, a system of psychiatric care and dialogic psychotherapy that has spread to over 40 countries. Why Dialogue Does Cure explores the transformative power of Open Dialogue, a radically humanistic approach to mental health care developed in Western Lapland. This episode unpacks why dialogic practice—where clinicians, clients, families, and networks meet in shared conversation—can lead to recoveries unimaginable in conventional psychiatry.

Together we discuss the history, development and discovery of how Open Dialogue redefined care: not by aiming to eliminate symptoms, but by meeting the full human through transparent, team-based dialogue.

Dr. Seikkula argues that the widening gap between humanistic and conventional approaches must be bridged—and that dialogue itself can be curative. This episode is essential listening for psychotherapists, clinical psychologists, psychiatrists, social workers, and anyone interested in meeting the full human in therapeutic practice.

Seikkula, J. (2025). Why dialogue does cure: explaining what makes dialogue unprecedentedly effective in difficult crises. 

In this episode, we reflect on the deeply moving documentary White Nanny, Black Child (2023), which explores Britain’s “farming” system — a practice through which over 70,000 West African children were fostered by white British families between 1955 and 1995.

Through the voices of nine adults who reunite to share their experiences, the film opens up tender and painful reflections on identity, belonging, and survival. We listen to the echoes of care and silence that continue to shape lives long after childhood — and we explore how systems of care can become systems of control when infused with colonial legacies and racialised assumptions.

We speak with Micheal Henry, the systemic therapist who facilitated the Tree of Life work featured in the film. Himself care-experienced, he shares his personal and professional reflections on holding space for these stories — the tensions of being both witness and participant — and the power of collective narrative practices in reconnecting people with identity, community, and pride.

Together, we consider what this story teaches us about how care systems remember, forget, and repair. How do we, as systemic practitioners, listen to what was once unspeakable? How do we make space for histories that live inside the present? And what might healing look like — for individuals, families, and the systems that raised them?

An invitation to think, feel, and reflect systemically on survival, silence, and the enduring search for belonging.

Film Reference:

White Nanny Black Child. Directed by Andy Mundy-Castle, Doc Hearts and Tigerlily Productions, Channel 5, 2023.

Micheal Henry Bio:

Michael Henry, is an African-centred Systemic Family and Couples Psychotherapist based in North London. With over 30 years of experience supporting individuals, families, and organisations, Michael brings deep insight into complex trauma, relationships, and identity.

A UKCP and AFT-accredited clinician, Michael’s approach blends Systemic Psychotherapy, African Psychology, and Integrative practice, drawing on training in Narrative Therapy, Gottman Method, Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT), EMDR, and Brainspotting.

Born and raised in East London to Jamaican parents, Michael’s work is grounded in cultural awareness, compassion, and wisdom. His journey—from youth work and child protection to psychotherapy and organisational consulting—reflects a lifelong commitment to understanding how people grow, heal, and connect.

Join us in this insightful episode as we sit down with Dr. John Launer, a retired GP, family therapist, and pioneer in integrating systemic and narrative approaches into healthcare. Dr. Launer shares his journey from general practice to becoming a leading figure in training healthcare professionals to use therapeutic conversations in their everyday work.

Discover the transformative power of Conversations Inviting Change (CIC), a method Dr. Launer co-developed to help clinicians balance the normative demands of medicine with the reflective, curiosity-driven practices of systemic and narrative therapy. Learn about the Seven Cs framework—Conversation, Curiosity, Context, Complexity, Challenge, Caution, and Care—and how it can revolutionize patient interactions, supervision, and teamwork in healthcare settings.

Dr. Launer also reflects on the challenges facing the NHS, the importance of storytelling in medicine, and his hopes for the future of healthcare education. Whether you're a healthcare professional, therapist, or simply curious about innovative approaches to communication, this episode offers valuable insights into creating meaningful, patient-centered care.

Tune in for a thought-provoking discussion that bridges the gap between medicine and therapy, and explores how curiosity and reflection can transform healthcare practices.

Join us for an inspiring and personal conversation with John Burnham, a true trailblazer in systemic psychotherapy and a visionary in the field of family therapy. With a career spanning over five decades, John has dedicated his life to transforming the way we understand and approach mental health, particularly in the context of eating disorders and family dynamics.

In this insightful podcast episode, John Burnham, reflects on his decades-long career, sharing personal and professional experiences that have shaped his approach to systemic psychotherapy. He discusses the importance of relationships, both in therapy and in life, emphasizing how trust, risk-taking, and role-playing are essential tools for growth and connection. 

John recounts memorable moments from his practice, including how live supervision and reflective teams have influenced his work, and highlights the value of humility, curiosity, and adaptability in therapeutic practice. He also touches on the evolution of family therapy, the importance of staying relevant in the field, and his hopes for its future. With warmth and wisdom, John offers a heartfelt exploration of what it means to be a therapist, a colleague, and a lifelong learner in the ever-changing landscape of psychotherapy.

Summary of episode:

1. Role of Role Play in Learning:
   • Importance of role play in helping students learn by making mistakes, recovering, and moving forward.
   • Example of a supervisor demonstrating techniques with families in front of students, which students found helpful.
2. Overcoming Fear of Failure:
   • Students often hold back due to fear of making mistakes or not knowing how to start.
   • Encouragement to take action, even if clumsy, rather than waiting to be "clever" or perfect.
   • Families can be forgiving and collaborative in the process.
3. Engaging Families in Therapy:
   • Therapists need to show willingness to engage with families before expecting families to engage in therapy.
   • Importance of taking initiative and co-creating solutions with families.
   • Example of a therapist reading through a client's extensive notes and deciding to engage based on the person, not just the notes.
4. Building Trust with Marginalized Families:
   • Some families, such as same-sex couples, may fear judgment or criticism from therapists.
   • Therapists need to reach out and create a safe space for these families to engage.
   • Example of a therapist meeting a same-sex couple at the top of the stairs to reassure them and invite them into therapy.
5. Ethics of Offering Therapy:
   • Debate on whether to offer therapy without meeting the client first.
   • Perspective that it is unethical to reject clients without meeting them and understanding their unique situation.
6. Personal Reflections on Career and Privilege:
   • Gratitude for being able to work in a field that is fulfilling and impactful.
   • Reflection on the privilege of loving one's job and making a contribution to others' lives.
   • Connection to personal family history, such as a parent who trained as a family therapist but never practiced.
7. Decolonization in Family Therapy:
   • Family therapy as a decolonizing process against the medical model and individualization.
   • Discussion of presentism and judging past actions by current standards.
   • Reflection on the lack of exposure to racial issues in a monocultural environment and how that shaped early understanding.
8. Intergenerational Impact of Training:
   • Therapists training the children of those they previously trained, highlighting the long-term impact of their work.

In this episode, we sit down with Nick Putman, founder of Open Dialogue UK and a leading force in adapting the Open Dialogue approach to the UK. As a UKCP registered psychotherapist and certified Open Dialogue practitioner and trainer, Nick shares his journey of learning directly from pioneers like Jaakko Seikkula and Jorma Ahonen, and how he has worked to bring this revolutionary approach to the NHS and beyond.

We explore Nick’s visits to Western Lapland to study Open Dialogue in practice, his work running training programmes internationally, and his contributions as co-editor of Open Dialogue for Psychosis. With over 25 years of experience in mental health settings, Nick offers deep insights into how prioritising dialogue, relationships, and meaning can transform care for people experiencing psychosis and their families.

Join us for an inspiring conversation about the challenges and triumphs of bringing Open Dialogue to the UK and reshaping mental health services.

In this episode, we’re joined by attendees from the Hayaa’ Network’s groundbreaking conference on neurodiversity, held in Singapore in February 2024. Together, we reflect on the latest advancements in practice, research, and theory in this rapidly evolving area of mental health, all through a systemic lens. Featuring insights from keynote speakers Dr. Marwa Azab, Ms. Nora Bateson, Ms. Maimunah Mosli, and Dr. Mairi Evans, this conversation dives into the intersections of neurodiversity and systemic practice. We explore the complexities shaping the experiences of neurodivergent individuals and their families, offering fresh perspectives on the interplay between mental health and neurodiversity.

Tune in for an engaging discussion that highlights the rich tapestry of systemic approaches in this vital field.

We are joined by:
Rubi Salam
Rupert Armistad
Eleanor Osman
Shalia Sheikh 
Ameesha Sharif

Join us for a compelling exploration of, The Divided Island, a groundbreaking documentary film that delves into the complex history, identity, and shared humanity of Cyprus. In this episode, we sit down with the film’s creators - director Cey Sesiguzel (Turkish Cypriot) and co-producer Andreas Tokkallos (Greek Cypriot) - as they reflect on their journey of collaboration and friendship, the stories that shaped their film, and the ways art can bridge even the deepest divides. 

We are also joined by Dr Emilios Lemoniatis, a consultant child psychiatrist, systemic psychotherapist and Cypriot Greek who joins us as a special guest host for this special episode. 

Through our conversation, we unpack the documentary’s key themes: the legacy of division, the impact of generational trauma, the search for missing stories, and the resilience of families caught between history and hope. Together, we ask: What does it mean to be Cypriot today? How can shared cultural strengths and systemic thinking create paths toward healing?

Whether you’re familiar with Cyprus’s history or new to its story, this episode offers a thought-provoking dialogue on identity, reconciliation, and the power of storytelling to inspire change.


https://www.thedividedisland.com/

The Divided Island challenges the often hostility-driven narratives perpetuated by mainstream media, offering instead a pursuit of truth through deeply personal interviews - from those whose lives, homes, and country were torn apart, to the new generation of Cypriots yearning for peaceful reconciliation.  The filmmakers aim to bring an unbiased, shared understanding of a complex issue and foster a narrative towards a future peaceful solution to the ‘Cyprus problem’.

In this episode, we sit down with David Denborough, a leading figure in narrative therapy and community work, to explore the fascinating journey that brought him to this transformative approach. David shares the early influences that connected his values and beliefs with narrative ideas, offering insight into the foundational stories that shaped his practice.

We dive into his relationship with the Dulwich Centre, the renowned hub of narrative therapy, uncovering how he became part of this vibrant community and the ways it bridges local and global communities. David reflects on the bi-directional flow of influence between the Dulwich Centre and the communities it engages with—work that has taken him from Australia to the UN, and to partnerships with Aboriginal communities, Ncazelo Ncube, and projects in Palestine.

Through projects like Tree of Life, Team of Life, and Kite of Life, David illustrates how narrative practices can transform lives and empower communities. We discuss the core ideas—what David calls the “spirits of practice”—that guide his work, including the life of stories, storytelling rights, reclaiming our lives, and challenging normality.

Finally, David shares his hopes for the future, envisioning how narrative practices can continue to inspire activism, resistance, and community building. This is a must-listen episode for anyone curious about the intersection of therapy, community, and social justice.

In this episode with speak with Dr Dwight Turner who shares his thoughts, ideas and reflections on his two books Intersections of privilege and otherness in counselling and psychotherapy: Mockingbird (2021) and The Psychology of Supremacy: Imperium (2023).

Dwight shares his personal stories around his early life, career and training as a psychotherapist weaving through themes of race, power, intersectionality and privilege. He talks about the creation of otherness and ways to deepen our understanding and relationship to the concepts so that we can develop anti-oppressive and safe spaces for people we meet, live and work with. He invites us into an exploration of interdental difference, alongside discussing the deeper unconscious understanding of difference, and how privilege plays a role in the construction of otherness. Dwight shares from the filed of post-colonial theory, feminist discourse, amongst other theoretical areas.



BIO

Dr Dwight Turner is Course Leader on the Humanistic Counselling and Psychotherapy Course at the University of Brighton, a PhD Supervisor at their Doctoral College, a psychotherapist and supervisor in private practice. An activist, writer and public speaker on issues of race, difference and intersectionality in counselling and psychotherapy, Dr Turner can be contacted via his website www.dwightturnercounselling.co.uk and can be followed on Twitter at @dturner300.

References:

Turner, D. (2021). Intersections of privilege and otherness in counselling and psychotherapy: Mockingbird. Routledge.


Turner, D. (2023). The Psychology of Supremacy: Imperium. Taylor & Francis.

In this episode we are joined by the Association for Family Therapy (AFT)'s Diversity Working Party (DWP) - Race Group. 

The group share their experiences of meeting and working together and their ongoing commitment to bring race to the forefront of our practice. The members talk about the complexity of grappling with this. Alongside this, they share the energy, passion and playfulness with which they endeavour to create safety to explore race in a meaningful way that can support changes in training, therapeutic practice and organisational contexts. 

We are joined by Shakira Maknoon, Prudencia Woode, Jennifer Achan, John Burnham, Amell El guenuni, Jan Lampard, and Emma Louise.