In this episode of the Metrics Brothers podcast, Ray Rike and Dave Kellogg tackle one of the most critical yet misunderstood metrics in the U.S. economy: Labor Productivity. Amidst the rapid rise of Artificial Intelligence, the "Metrics Brothers" break down how productivity is officially measured by the Bureau of Labor Statistics and why historical technology booms, from SaaS to Cloud, haven't always moved productivity growth as much as expected.

Key Takeaways: A deep dive into the ratio of economic output per hour worked, including what the BLS excludes (farms and government) and the nuances of white-collar labor tracking.

• Historical Trends: A comparison of the post-war boom versus the "SaaS era," exploring why the last 20 years have seen a 66% relative decrease in productivity growth despite trillions in tech investment.
• The AI Impact: Three potential scenarios for the future of work, from "exploding output" to "labor displacement," and why AI might fundamentally remake work in ways the Cloud never did.
• Global Benchmarking: How the U.S. stacks up against leaders like Ireland and Norway in output per hour.

Why Listen? Whether you are a SaaS leader, investor, or white-collar professional, this episode provides a roadmap for staying on the "right side of the divide" in the upcoming AI-driven economic shift.

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Brand is one of the most powerful assets a company can build and one of the hardest to measure. In this episode of The Metrics Brothers, Dave “CAC” Kellogg, and Ray "Growth" Rike take on one of marketing’s most persistent challenges: how to measure brand in a world obsessed with direct attribution and near-term ROI.

The conversation starts with what a brand really is, originating from literal marks of ownership and evolving into a promise of quality, trust, and differentiation. From there, Ray and Dave explore why strong brands create pricing power, customer loyalty, category leadership, and long-term defensibility, even if those benefits do not always show up cleanly in dashboards.

They then break down practical ways to measure brand that align marketing and finance perspectives, including indirect valuation approaches such as brand value and goodwill frameworks, along with comparative metrics like direct and branded web traffic, share of voice, share of search, and inbound pipeline contribution. The episode also covers market research fundamentals including awareness, consideration, trial, and repurchase, and why dedicating a portion of your marketing budget to measurement is essential to sustaining brand investment.

Finally, the Metrics Brothers dig into brand measurement techniques that work in practice, including self-reported attribution, lift experiments, and analyzing sales conversations to see how brand shows up late in the buying process, often at the exact moment a deal is won.

If you have ever struggled to align brand investment with measurable outcomes, justify brand spend alongside demand generation, or connect long-term brand building to real business results, this episode provides a grounded, metrics-driven framework for doing exactly that.

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For their 100th episode, Ray "Growth" Rike and Dave "CAC" Kellogg get philosophical, inspired by the notion that many hold, which is "nothing works" in B2B GTM anymore - especially in regards to pipeline development.

They dive into the 2025 State of B2B GTM Report by Kyle Poyar and Maja Voijc to challenge this idea and find out what GTM leaders are actually prioritizing.

In this episode, The Metrics Brothers break down:

• The State of the Market: Analyzing a survey of 195 GTM leaders, including data on small companies, growth rates, and the surprising lack of correlation between GTM motion and growth.

• The "Pipeline Crisis": Discussing why scaling existing GTM motions is the number one priority, even when many GTM leaders feel their current efforts aren't effective.

• Too Much Noise: A look at the "distraction chart" [slide 12] showing the staggering number of channels and strategies B2B companies are trying, and why the report suggests this is "too much".

• The Tried and True GTM Quadrant: Highlighting the activities with the biggest likelihood of impact, including Intimate Events, Intent-Based Inbound, and LinkedIn [slide 13].

• The Winner Take All Future: Exploring the massive trend of investing in Answer Engine Optimization (AEO) [slide 18] and breaking down tactical recommendations for optimizing for ChatGPT and other answer engines, emphasizing the importance of facts and platforms like Reddit and G2 [slide 19].

• Must Try GTM Tools: Reviewing the next generation of GTM tools, with a focus on cutting-edge platforms like Clay, Lovable, Sora, and Replit for data automation, outbound, and video generation [slide 29].

Whether you're a Founder, CMO, CRO or GTM leader, this episode offers a data-driven look at where to focus your budget and attention in the year ahead.

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On this episode, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss Customer Lifetime Value, and the different input variables required to calculate this compound, multi-variable metric.

The Metrics brothers discuss the following nuances of calculating Customer Lifetime Value

• The basics - CLTV or LTV
• Revenue or Gross Profit
• Which number to use for churn in the formula (GRR, Logo Churn, all ARR or only available to renew ARR)
• Which number to use for the Average Revenue Per Account (ARPA) - new customers only or all customers

If you love the nuances and details of SaaS Metrics - this is a thought provoking episode that highlights the important of gaining alignment of the CLTV and CAC metrics in your B2B SaaS company

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On this episode, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss in detail how Usage-Based Pricing (UBP)  impacts the calculation of Customer Acquisition Cost and it's efficiency derivatives including CAC Ratio and CAC Payback Period.

They discuss the three primary different types of Usage-Based Pricing Models including:

• Pure usage-based or consumption-based pricing with no minimum commitments
• Minimum commitment agreement that includes up to #x units and then overage $/unit over the minimum
• Annual Subscription agreement to the platform and a $/unit of usage in addition to the annual subscription

Each of the above models can impact what is consider Annual Recurring Revenue (ARR), Variable Recurrring Revenue (VRR) and/or pure variable revenue - and that will accordingly impact the CAC efficiency metric calculation methodology.

If you love the nuances and details of SaaS Metric and how emerging GTM models impact traditional metrics calculations - this episode is for you!

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The Metrics Brothers discuss how Product-Led Growth (PLG) including the use of Freemiums and/or Free Trials impacts the Customer Acquisition Cost (CAC) calculation. Each PLG model may have different times to value, conversion rates to paid users, different definitions of when a free user becomes a customer which all can impact the CAC calculation formula and the resultant usefulness of the metrics

During this weeks episode, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss CAC Payback Period, and provide a little entertainment along the journey to using CAC Payback Period in your SaaS company.

Summary

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The Metrics Brothers discuss the use of Customer Acquisition Cost Payback Period (CAC Payback Period). On the surface CAC Payback Period (CPP) is easy to understand, yet in practice there are many nuances and considerations such as using Gross Margin in the CPP calculation, and if CAC Payback Period is an efficiency, risk or return metric.

During this weeks episode, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss CAC Payback Period, and provide a little entertainment along the journey to using CAC Payback Period in your SaaS company.

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The Metrics Brothers discuss advanced topics and uses of Customer Acquisition Cost (CAC) and the CAC Ratio. On the surface CAC and CAC related metrics appear easy to understand, yet in practice there are many nuances, considerations and approaches to optimize the insights provided by CAC.

During this weeks episode, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss those advanced topics, and provide a little entertainment along the journey to using CAC in your SaaS company.

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The Metrics Brothers discuss Customer Acquisition Cost (CAC) and the CAC Ratio. The two metrics are closely related, yet are fundamentally two very different SaaS metrics. 

During this weeks episode, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss the value of each metric, when to use them and how to calculate each metric.

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How do B2B SaaS leaders measure the financial returns on pipeline generation?

On the surface this question may seem quite simple, but one with that presents several options, especially when considering how a CFO evaluates return on investment.

The Metrics Brothers, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike dive deep into the nuances and considerations of pipeline returns on this week's episode of SaaS Talk™ with the Metrics Brothers.

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In this episode of SaaS Talk™ with the Metrics Brothers, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth Rike discuss Pipeline Measurements

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In this episode of SaaS Talk™ with the Metrics Brothers, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike, they discuss all things Pipeline Generation

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SaaS Talk™ dives deep into the world of Software as a Service, discussing the successes and hurdles that C-suite leaders in the SaaS industry encounter.

Co-hosted by Ray Rike, CEO of Rev Ops Squared, and Dave Kellogg, Executive In Residence at Balderton Capital and Principal at Dave Kellogg Consulting, this podcast brings forth insights and perspectives from esteemed SaaS leaders. They share knowledge and experience on a wide array of topics, including SaaS strategy, business model innovation, customer success management, revenue operations, SaaS metrics, infrastructure and security, and data-driven decision-making.

Whether you're a C-suite executive in a SaaS company, an ambitious tech entrepreneur, or simply eager to delve into the SaaS landscape, SaaS Talk has you covered. Our guests reveal their real-world experiences and practical advice, along with their perspectives on emerging trends and technologies in AI, Machine Learning, and Cloud Services.

If you're eager to stay at the forefront in the rapidly evolving world of SaaS, tune in to SaaS Talk. Discover what it takes to excel as a C-suite leader in today's dynamic and ever-changing tech landscape.

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In this episode of The Metrics Brothers, Ray “Growth” Rike and Dave “CAC” Kellogg break down one of the emerging metrics in the Agentic AI era: Containment Rate - the percentage of tasks an AI agent completes (resolves) end-to-end without human intervention.

They explore multiple aspects of the Containment Rate Metric including:

• How containment rate differs from classic chatbot metric - deflection rate
• Why defining “resolved” and/or "completed" is essential to calculating containment rate
• How the metric connects directly to ROI
• Why ROI needs to include both the benefit (cost-savings) and the investment (expense) for the AI Agent

Ray and Dave also trace the history of containment from IVR to Chatbots to LLM-powered agents, debate common misconceptions, and outline benchmarks across customer support, IT, HR, and back-office agentic AI workflows.

If you’re building, buying, or benchmarking AI agents - or trying to turn AI investments into measurable ROI — this episode delivers the context, clarity, and humor only The Metrics Brothers can provide.

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Air Street Capital’s Nathan Benaich just dropped the 2025 State of AI Report — a 313-page tour de force on where artificial intelligence is today and where it’s headed next. In this episode, Dave “CAC” Kellogg and Ray “Growth” Rike break down the highlights, surprises, and bold predictions shaping the future of AI, software, and the global economy.

They explore:

• Why this report is becoming the “Mary Meeker Internet Report” of the AI era
• Key insights across research breakthroughs, model performance, geopolitics, enterprise adoption, and market maturity
• The Top 10 Predictions that could define the next 12 months — from AI agents running $5B in ad spend to the first UN emergency debate on AI security

Predictions discussed include:

• Retailers generating 5%+ of online sales via agentic checkout
• Open-sourcing frontier models to win government favor
• AI-driven scientific discoveries completed end-to-end by autonomous agents
• Deepfake or agent-led cyberattacks prompting NATO-level action
• A real-time generative video game dominating Twitch
• “AI neutrality” emerging as a new foreign policy doctrine
• AI-produced films earning major audience praise (and backlash)
• A Chinese lab surpassing U.S. AI leadership
• Datacenter NIMBYism shaping local elections
• And even AI entering U.S. presidential politics through executive orders and court battles

If you work in B2B software, this episode is your roadmap to how AI is transforming not just technology — but business models, economics, and the balance of global power.

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AI Agents (also known as Agentic AI) are quickly becoming one of the most talked-about ways for enterprises to operationalize generative AI. G2 recently released a new research report — “A Leap of Trust: AI Agents Are Winning Hearts and Wallets” — highlighting where adoption is happening and why.

In this episode, Dave “CAC” Kellogg and Ray “Growth” Rike break down the report’s findings and what they mean for business leaders evaluating AI strategies today, including:

• How efficiency and effectiveness gains translate into real business outcomes
• The connection between Parkinson’s Law and AI Agent scaling
• Which industries are leading AI Agent adoption
• The top use cases emerging across the enterprise
• Why Time to Value may be faster than expected
• Containment Rate — the new metric that matters
• And whether AI Agents accelerate a return to IT-centric projects

If you're evaluating how to bring Generative AI into your organization — including whether to deploy packaged AI applications or pursue an agentic approach — this conversation is full of practical insights and thought-provoking perspectives you won’t want to miss.

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The buzz about ROI from AI software investments is palpable, so Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike take on the topic of measuring Return on Investment on AI software investments. During today's episode, Dave and Ray discuss the details on measuring ROI including:

• Defining Return on Investment
• Soft vs Hard Benefits
• Productivity - the primary benefit of AI investments today
• Buy versus Build & Run - an old problem is new again
• ROI models need to go beyond payback period
• Look back reviews - the value vs the reality

Return on Investment (ROI) is not a new term - but one that is coming back into favor thanks to AI. If you are considering making or continuing an investment in AI software and project for your organization - this episode has something of value for you!

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9-9-6. A term to describe the work culture of working 9AM - 9PM six days a week. This term is most often associated with those founders, companies, and their employees that work in generational software opportunities - such as we see right now with AI Software.

Dave and Ray discuss 9-9-6 from multiple angles in today's episode including:

• What 9-9-6 is
• Where did it originate
• Why is it trending
• The importance of Winning in the early stage of a new software era
• Geoffrey Moore's segmentation of new enterprise software markets (Gorillas, Chimps and Monkeys)
• Historic examples of those companies that became category leader
• Why the grind is not the point - Winning is
• Why the choice of entering a 9-9-6 environment makes choosing the company even more important

If you are currently in an early-stage AI-Native software company or considering making the move - this episode is a must listen!

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The Forward-Deployed Engineer (FDE) represents a fundamental reimagining of the technical role in high-stakes enterprise environments. At its core, an FDE is a software engineer embedded directly with customers to solve their most complex—and often ambiguous—problems.

Palantir is widely credited as the originator and early adopter of the FDE model, initially referring to these engineers as “Deltas.” In this episode, Dave “CAC” Kellogg and Ray “Growth” Rike explore multiple dimensions of the Forward-Deployed Engineer role, including:

• The origin of the FDE
• How the military influenced the term
• Whether the FDE belongs in a technology-enabled services company or a software company
• How an FDE differs from a traditional technical services consultant
• Where FDE expenses should be allocated—COGS vs. OPEX
• How those allocation decisions impact key metrics
• The hiring trends shaping the future of the FDE

If you’re building an AI-native application or an agentic AI company with outcome-based pricing, this episode is packed with insights and ideas on why a Forward-Deployed Engineer could be your next—and most important—hire.

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Iconiq recently published its State of Software 2025: Rethinking the Playbook. Whenever a new industry benchmark report is published, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike try to quickly read, analyze and decide if the report should be discussed on an episode of the Metrics Brothers. The Iconiq State of Software 2025 is a solid industry report that includes several key findings that Dave and Ray discuss during this episode including:

• Ai-Native vs AI-Enabled vs non-AI segmentation
• Growth's impact on Enterprise Value to Revenue multiples
• Revenue growth trends by company size
• Net Revenue Retention Benchmarks
• CAC Payback Period Benchmarks
• Adoption vs Engagement vs Outcomes for AI software companies
• Funnel Conversion metrics for AI vs non-AI companies

If you are interested in how the top tier, maybe I should say top quartile of SaaS companies are performing, in context of SaaS companies leveraging AI, those not leveraging AI and AI-Native software companies - this episode has something for everyone!

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The Bessemer Venture Partners Cloud 100 Benchmarks Report 2025 provides a snapshot into the top 100 PRIVATE SaaS/Cloud/AI companies. This year's report is full of new insights and trends that highlight how AI is impacting the software industry as we know it. Some of the key points in the report that our hosts Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss during today's episode include:

•  The Cloud 100 $1,117 billion in aggregate value - a 36% increase from $820 billion in 2024
• The top 10 companies account for $598 billion of the aggregate value - 54% of entire list versus 46% last year
• OpenAI valued at $300 billion exceeds the combined value of last year’s top 10
• AI companies dominate this year’s list, comprising $464 billion in value - last year AI company total valuation was $176B (21%)
• The average Cloud 100 company reached the $100M (Centaur) milestone in just 7.5 years - AI companies only 5.7 years

The story on the Cloud 100 valuation multiples provide an interesting story on how valuation and growth are not necessarily trending in the same direction:

• The average Cloud 100 revenue multiple was 20x fell for third straight and down from 34X (41%) since 2021

If you are interested in how the SaaS and Cloud industry is evolving - by the number, and how AI-Native software companies are changing the benchmarks this episode is a MUST listen!

Bessemer Cloud 100 Benchmark 2025 Report is available by clicking here

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Positive Business Outlook or Work-Life Balance - which is more important? The "Grindscore" metric combines the two to determine the attractiveness of a company for employees. 

Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss the metric from many different angles including:

• The origin of the Grindscore metric
• Positive Business Outlook (PBO) + Work-Life Balance (WLB)
• Sample of Private and Public Company Grindscores
• Why a high PBO and high WLB scores the same as a low PBO and an average WLB (flaws of the metric)

This episode covers a metric that most software companies are not using - and the conversation may put a light on some of the reasons why?!

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The State of Generative AI in the Enterprise 2025

In this episode of The Metrics Brothers, Ray Rike and Dave Kellogg break down the 2025 State of Generative AI in the Enterprise report from Menlo Ventures and explain what the data really says about where enterprise AI adoption is accelerating and where the market is consolidating.

The headline takeaway: AI software is scaling faster than any software category in history. Enterprise AI spend has exploded from roughly $1.7B in 2023 to nearly $37B in 2025, reaching scale in just three years. This revenue milestone took SaaS more than 15 years to achieve. Foundational models now represent the single largest area of spend, highlighting how infrastructure and model access remain core to enterprise AI strategies.

Ray and Dave also explore a major strategic shift inside the enterprise: buy is decisively beating build. In 2025, 76% of enterprise AI solutions are purchased rather than built internally, up sharply from 53% the year prior. Rapid model evolution, ongoing retraining costs, and model drift are making internal AI development far more expensive to maintain than many teams originally expected.

One of the most surprising findings is on go-to-market efficiency. AI software pilots convert to production at nearly twice the rate of traditional software, with roughly 47% of AI pilots reaching production versus about 25% for conventional enterprise software. This runs counter to recent narratives suggesting enterprise AI pilots are stalling and points to clearer ROI and faster time-to-value.

The episode also dives into what Menlo calls the first true “AI killer app”: AI-assisted coding. Coding tools now account for more than half of departmental AI spend, with over 50% of developers already using AI coding assistants and adoption exceeding 65% among top-quartile teams. Real-world examples show meaningful productivity gains, including double-digit increases in development velocity and significant time savings during legacy system upgrades.

Industry-wise, healthcare emerges as the largest buyer of vertical AI, representing 43% of vertical AI spend. This is notable given healthcare’s historically lower IT spend as a percentage of revenue. Much of the value is coming from administrative automation such as medical scribing, where AI directly reduces non-clinical workload and unlocks meaningful productivity gains for care providers.

Finally, Ray and Dave examine the shifting competitive landscape among foundation model providers. Anthropic has surged to roughly 40% share of enterprise AI usage, up dramatically from prior years, while OpenAI’s share has declined as Google continues to gain traction. The discussion centers on focus versus breadth and why enterprise positioning and reliability may matter more than consumer mindshare.

Key takeaways from the episode:

• AI software is the fastest-scaling software category ever
• Enterprises are rapidly moving from build to buy
• AI pilots convert to production at nearly 2x traditional software
• AI coding is emerging as the first true enterprise AI killer app
• Anthropic’s enterprise focus is translating into meaningful market share gains

If you care about how AI adoption actually translates into spend, productivity, and competitive advantage inside large organizations, this episode is a must-listen.

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Bessemer Venture Partners recently released their State of AI 2025 Report, a space exploration manual for the AI software era. With AI now the dominant software force, let's dive into what Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike took away from the report in today's episode:

• The key differences in performance metrics between AI Supernovas and Shooting Stars
• Why Vertical AI companies have a unique opportunity to outperform horizontal AI companies in the early days
• The importance of building a structured Proof of Concept or Pilot program into your customer acquisition process
• The top 5 predictions for the AI market in 2026
• Top 10 takeaways for Native-AI founders and executive leaders

The top five predictions from the report for AI in 2026 include:

1. The browser will emerge as a dominant interface for agentic AI
2. 2026 will be the year of generative video
3. Evaluations and data lineage will become a critical catalyst for AI product development
4. A new AI-native social media giant could emerge
5. The incumbents strike back as AI M&A heats up

For the best listening experience, open the Bessemer Venture Partners State of AI 2025 report and follow along as Dave and Ray discuss the highlights.

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Aventis Advisors recently published a report on AI Valuations which covered the number of investments, size of those investments, median valuations and multiples on AI investments over a 15 year period from 2010 through first half of 2025!

Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss some of the highlights including:

• AI industry categories included
• Number of financing rounds (2010 - 1H2025)
• Total Capital Raised (2010 - 1H2025)
• Median sizes by round (2010 - 1H2025)
• Valuations (2010 - 1H2025)
• Valuation multiples (2010 - 1H2025)
• Large Language Model valuations vs AI Coding Assistant Valuations
• Summary of the AI funding environment

You can follow along to Dave and Ray's conversation by clicking the below link to the report

Aventis AI Valuation Multiples Report

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AI-Native products and AI products integrated into a traditional SaaS platform have different Cost of Goods Sold (COGS) than a SaaS platform, which directly impacts Gross Margin. With over 80% of SaaS companies already integrating AI products into their platform, the Metrics Brothers knew it was time to discuss the Gross Margin and Cost of Goods Sold considerations of deploying an AI product:

Topics that CAC and Growth discuss during this episode includes:

• Gross Margin benchmarks for AI products versus SaaS platforms
• Cost of Goods Sold (COGS) for SaaS products
• Cost of Goods Sold (COGS) for AI products
• General Rules for COGS vs OPEX categorization
• Increasing AI product Gross Margins with scale
• The cascading reality of AI investments and build-outs

If you are considering investing capital and resources into an AI product, be it in an AI-Native product or as an add-on to a legacy SaaS platform, this conversation between CAC and Growth provides multiple insights and considerations for many Cost of Goods Sold components for AI products vis-à-vis traditional SaaS products.

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AI is creating a level of need for data centers, power and processing capacity that has not been seen before - but how to measure the magnitude of that need is the topic for the Metrics Brothers to take on during this episode.

During today's conversation, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss many key Data Center metrics including:

• FLOPS - Floating Point Operations per Second
• Model Parameters
• Watts and Gigawatts = Power
• Gigawatt/hours = Energy
• First multi-GW data center named Prometheus
• Why data center size is now being compared to the city of Manhattan

AI is changing the world as we know it - and the Metrics Brothers are diving into this trend metric by metric!

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SaaS companies were traditionally measured on how many years it took to achieve $100M ARR - a key milestone! In today's brave new world of AI, this milestone is now measured in MONTHS. Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike highlight discuss this new AI growth metric in today's episode with many examples including:

• Lovable
• Cursor
• Wiz
• Bolt
• Anthropic
• OpenAI

Dave and Ray discuss how these new hypergrowth AI-Native companies compare to some of the fastest growing traditional SaaS companies including DocuSign, Atlassian, Box, HashiCorp, Zoom and Slack.

The Metrics Brothers then dive a little deeper into the details of the "months to $100M" to discuss WHEN does that clock begin to tick, at launch or at $1M ARR? They then go beyond just AI and discuss how Product-Led Growth was once viewed as a key to accelerating growth to $100M and where the reality meets the expectations.

Lastly, CAC and Growth discuss one example of a fast growing AI company that could not quite sustain the early growth trajectory that was greatly helped by the hype and the hope of AI - a cautionary tale for other high flyers or just an interesting data point?

Take a listen to this episode if you are involved, interested or evaluating how growth rate expectations for software companies in the new era of software!!!

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The recent $2.4B deal by Google to purchase Windsurf's two co-founders, key staff and a non-exclusive license to the Windsurf software is an example of the new Reverse Acqui-hire structure. Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss the tradition vs new acqui-hire structure model as evidenced by the Google-Windsurf deal.

During this episode, CAC and Growth cover not only the Goggle-Windsurf deal, they also discuss the broader impact to the future of acquisitions across the software industry. Topics discussed include:

• The timeline of the Google, Windsurf and now Cognition deal
• Overview of the traditional tech acqui-hire deal structure
• Discussion on how the new "reverse acquihire" is different
• Comparing professional athlete's top salaries to top AI and software talent in reverse acqui-hires
• WHY the use of the new reverse acqui-hires happen and why it will probably continue

If you enjoy going beyond the traditional headlines of industry acquisitions and thinking about the underlying reason why tech acquisition deal structures are evolving and changing - this discussion on the Google-Windsurf deal provides great content to go beyond what and think about the why!!!

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AI and AI-Native companies are changing the software industry and the metrics to measure AI market momentum are still evolving.

During this weeks episode, our co-hosts Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss a recent article on AI Metrics by Benedict Evans. AI measurements and metrics discussed include:

• Daily Active Users / Monthly Active Users (DAU/MAU)
• Tokens - what they are and how they are calculated
• Weekly User Retention

Dave and Ray take us on a stroll down "metrics memory lane" as they discuss the early days of the internet, and some of the metrics that were used in the early days, that evolved and changed as the use of the internet began to mature - some of those metrics included:

• Internet Hosts
• Hits
• Page Views
• Eyeballs

Lastly, the term Occam's Razor was introduced to discuss why sometimes the simplest metrics that require the lowest number of assumptions is a good place to start when initially measuring new things.

The Metrics Brothers are excited to expand their metrics-centric analysis and insights into the rapidly evolving world of AI, and specifically AI software and AI metrics!

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Figma is a web-based collaborative design platform used by product designers, UX/UI teams and developers. They also just recently filed their S-1.

During this episode, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss several aspects of the S-1 including:

• Customer count & revenue by customer segment (< $10,000 ARR, > $10,000 ARR, > $100,000 ARR, > $1M ARR)
• Net Revenue (Dollar) Retention Rate Calculation (132%)
• Gross Revenue (Dollar) Retention Rate Calculation (96%)
• Rule of 40 = 79 (higher than Palantir)
• Impact of the Adobe acquisition collapse - an enterprise valuation perspective

Inspiration for the discussion and a few data points beyond what was in the Figma S-1 included:

• Jamin Ball - Clouded Judgement Newsletter
• Only CFO Newsletter
• CJ Gustafson - Mostly Metrics Newsletter

If you are interested in SaaS companies, S-1 filings and SaaS Metrics such as Net Revenue Retention, Gross Revenue Retention, and Rule of 40 - those metrics that impact enterprise value - this episode is for you!!!

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Go-to-Market is a term often used to describe the strategy, processes, and organizations that B2B companies employ to acquire, retain, and expand their customer base.

In this episode, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss the recently published ICONIQ report on the State of GTM 2025...and yes, it includes a lot about how AI-native and AI utilization are impacting all things GTM. 

Topics include:

• Funnel Conversion Rate Trends
• AI-Native Funnel Performance Advantages 
• Cost per Opportunity
• Customer Renewal Timing
• Go-to-Market Headcount allocation (AI-Native vs Legacy SaaS)
• AI's impact on Sales Productivity
• AI Spend Trends

If you are a GTM leader, are responsible for the financial performance of your B2B SaaS company, or are interested in how AI is impacting all things customer acquisition, retention, and expansion, this episode has something for you!!!

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The definition of Annual Recurring Revenue (ARR) has never been standardized - but in an era of variable pricing models such as Usage-Based Pricing, the innovative approaches to calculating and reporting ARR continue to evolve. During this episode, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike cover the topic guided by a few recently industry influencer posts - coupled with their own experiences including:

• Ben Murray, The SaaS CFO - Please Don't Tell me ARR is Dead
• CJ Gustafson - How Public Companies Report ARR
• Notable, Glenn Solomon and Laura Hamilton. - Is ARR Dead or Just Evolving?
• Ben Murray, The SaaS CFO - Defining and Reporting ARR in a Variable Pricing Environment
• Dave Kellogg - SaaS Metrics Palooza '24 - The Impact of AI on SaaS Metrics (especially ARR)

If you are interested in the topic of how companies using a variable pricing model are calculating and reporting ARR - this is a must listen episode and provides links to some of the most recent thinking on the topic!

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The claim that “95% of AI projects fail” has become one of the most repeated talking points in enterprise AI. But where did it come from, and does it actually hold up?

In this episode, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike take a detailed, data-driven look at the MIT NANDA report, titled The GenAI Divide: State of AI in Business 2025. They break down how the "95% fail rate" statistic went viral, why it stuck, and why the underlying evidence does not support such a sweeping conclusion.

What Ray and Dave cover:

• Why the NANDA report is often mistaken for a peer-reviewed academic study when it is not
• How ambiguous definitions of “failure” turn partial adoption into sensational headlines
• Data inconsistencies and methodological gaps that undermine the 95% claim
• The difference between failed AI initiatives and early-stage pilots or experiments
• Why measuring AI success by the percent of projects is misleading compared to the business value created
• The rise of Shadow AI and employee-driven adoption, and why that may be a feature, not a flaw
• How the report’s conclusions conveniently align with the authors’ proposed NANDA architecture
• The real issues enterprises face with AI: workflow integration, governance, and change management

The episode also discusses why personal productivity gains still matter to the P&L, even if they do not appear as a clear line item, and why fear-driven AI narratives can do real damage within organizations.

Key takeaway:

The NANDA report raises some legitimate concerns about scaling AI from pilot to production, but the infamous “95% of AI projects fail” claim does not survive close inspection. Leaders should read the report skeptically and push back when flawed statistics begin to drive decisions and strategy.

Recommended for:

CFOs, operators, AI leaders, and anyone tired of scary AI statistics that fall apart under scrutiny.

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Mary Meeker’s experience dates back to her role as a leading technology analyst at Morgan Stanley with her “Internet Trends Report”, she was in the middle of the Netscape, Amazon, and Google IPOs, and became a VC at Kleiner Perkins (2010) and then founded Bond in 2018 which has raised $5.75B to fund companies including Canva, Stripe, Plaid, Ironclad and Nextdoor to name just a few.

During this episode of SaaS Talk with the Metrics, CAC and Growth discuss some of the KEY highlights of the 339-page report, Bond and Mary Meeker just released on Artificial Intelligence (AI) Trends - 2025 including:

• ChatGPT and Generative AI are the fastest growing technology adoption of all time - with context
• Exponential growth of the AI ecosystem
• How Generative AI is reinventing the technology stack and economic models
• Geo-political impact of the race to AI leadership
• Capital intensive nature of AI and the operating profitability reality
• Legacy SaaS companies or native language models applications - who will win...and why

The Metrics Brothers go beyond legacy SaaS to discuss the AI Trends captured in the Mary Meeker - Bond report and guess what - it includes numbers and metrics!!!

Full report available at: https://www.bondcap.com/report/pdf/Trends_Artificial_Intelligence.pdf

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Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike break down the recent Benchmarkit B2B Marketing Budget and Productivity Benchmarks Report. Key trends and insights into how the Marketing budgets are established, consumed and reported upon including:

• Marketing budget as a percentage of revenue including YoY changes and segmented by company size
• Growth Rates compared to Marketing budget allocation - the chicken or the egg discussion
• People vs Program vs Technology budget allocation - and which company profile attributes impact the results
• Demand Generation - how much of the Marketing budget is consumed by demand gen - it depends...
• Product-Led Growth vs Sales-Led Growth - how the GTM motion impacts budget allocation
• Top 3 Marketing Performance Metrics use and the Top 3 Marketing efficiency metrics used

If you are evaluating how your Marketing budget companies to similar "like" companies or how other companies are measuring the efficiency and/or Marketing ROI - this episode has something for you!

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How do you calculate the efficiency of pipeline generation in a B2B SaaS company? Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike take this metric(s) topic on head first by discussing both the Cost per Opportunity and Pipe to Spend metrics - key to understanding how much investment is required to generate pipeline!

During this episode CAC and Growth also touch upon the closely aligned metric of "Pipeline Conversion" which is a critical metric to partner with both the Cost per Opportunity and the Pipe to Spend metrics!

If you are responsible for generating pipeline (Demand Gen), responsible for the budget that goes into pipeline generation (Head of Marketing / CMO) or for how efficient new pipeline and the associated New ARR is produced (CFO and CEO) this episode has something for each pipeline generation stakeholder!!!

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Customer Acquisition Cost efficiency continues to be challenged in the B2B SaaS environment, while alignment across the Go-to-Market organization continues to be a topic of conversation. So, Dave "CAC" Kellogg a long time Marketing executive and Ray "Growth" Rike, a long time Sales executive decided to take on the the topic of Marketing and Sales alignment from their respective experiences as department executives. Topics discussed include:

• What is Marketing and Sales Alignment
• What isn't Marketing and Sales Alignment
• Top 3 Ideas to Achieve Marketing and Sales Alignment
• How Metrics Can Impact Marketing and Sales Alignment
• The Impact of Alignment

If you are a CEO depending on the productivity of an aligned Go-to-Market organization, or the head of Marketing or Sales in a B2B SaaS company, this conversation is full of interesting ideas, stories and approaches to increasing revenue growth efficiency.

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Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike recently did a LIVE episode of SaaS Talk with the Metrics Brothers at the Baker Tilly Technology Finance Symposium in San Francisco. The topic of their discussion was aligning Finance and the Go-to-Market functions and included how SaaS metrics can be used as a core "alignment" strategy. 

During this "extended" version of SaaS Talk with the Metrics Brothers, Ray and Dave discussed several different strategies to align Finance and the GTM functions, including:

• What is alignment
• What isn't alignment
• Real-life stories on what misalignment looks like
• Putting "Strategy" back into Strategic Planning
• Strategic Planning Frameworks to consider
• SaaS Performance Metrics Framework to consider

If you are a CFO or GTM executive leader - this live conversation is full of interesting ideas, experiences and of course a few attempts at humor by the Metrics Brothers!

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Stock-based Compensation (SBC) has been a hallmark of the SaaS and Cloud industry since the early days. Stock Options, Restricted Stock Units, Strike Price, and vesting periods continue to be a key discussion point for potential hires. Today's episode covers how Stock-based compensation impacts Operating Expenses on the Income Statement...and how SBC can impact SaaS metrics.

Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike dive into the details of Stock-Based Compensation in today's episode including:

• What is Stock-Based Compensation (SBC)
• How does a company pay/account for SBC
• What kind of expense is Stock-Based Compensation
• Where does SBC show up on an Income Statement
• How can SBC impact SaaS metrics

Stock-Based Compensation can be a very complex and nuanced topic, but if you are a SaaS executive, a SaaS employee with stock options, or a SaaS company investor, this conversation and episode is full of detailed insights.

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B2B SaaS Benchmark reports are popping up like mushrooms - but how do you know if the benchmark report is good, contains valuable insights and how to use the benchmarks to inform your own objectives and SaaS metrics goals? 

Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike take on a topic that is near and dear to their hearts and discuss several key factors that are a tell for a good benchmark report including:

• Top things to consider when reading a benchmark report
• Attributes of a good benchmark report
• Attributes of a "not so good" benchmark report
• Benchmark utilization best practices
• Good Benchmark reports to review

If you read benchmark reports and use them in helping to establish goals and objectives in your B2B SaaS company - this episode is a must listen!

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Ideal Customer Profile (ICP) is a term commonly used across the SaaS industry - but what does it really mean, how can a company effectively build a customer acquisition strategy around it and what METRICS can be used to determine a company's ICP and then measure if it really is the best target customer segment?

During this week's episode, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss the following ICP elements to understand, execute and measure the ROI on the "Ideal Customer Profile":

• What variables are used to determine the ICP
• How to measure the relevant fit of a prospect to the ICP
• How to measure if the identified "ICP" is the best target customer segment(s)
• What metrics can be added to the traditional ICP criteria to enhance the targeting strategy

As always - CAC and Growth introduce a new pairing and an attempt at humor throughout the episode 😱

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Net Customer Base Expansion = (Expansion ARR - Churned ARR) which helps SaaS companies to understand how the existing customer base is impacting ARR growth excluding the impact of new logo customer ARR. 

Why not just use Net Revenue Retention? CAC and Growth dive deep into this SaaS metric including:

• Calculation formula for Net Customer Base Expansion (NCBE)
• How is NCBE different from Net Revenue Retention (NRR)
• What is CAC's definition of lazy NRR
• Cohort vs Segment Calculations - what is the difference
• What is a good Net Customer Base Expansion Rate
• When and where does the Net Customer Base Expansion provide the most value

If you are responsible for impacting how ARR grows at existing customers in a B2B SaaS company - this episode may provides some new insights and maybe a new metric to add to your SaaS Metrics glossary!

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B2B SaaS Pricing models have evolved over the past few years with 67% of SaaS companies now saying they have introduced at least one element of Usage-Based Pricing. Though this benchmark does not tell the whole story of pricing, as the primary pricing model is still based upon a subscription fee per user or a subscription fee per user + a Usage-Based or Value-Based pricing variable.

During this episode, CAC and Growth cover a wide range of current pricing trends and benchmarks including:

• Subscription vs Usage vs Value vs Hybrid pricing model adoption
• Adoption of AI and the associated pricing strategies
• Impact on Growth Rates based upon pricing model used
• Utilization of "Usage CAPS" and how they are charged
• Treatment of Usage-Based Revenue when calculating ARR

If you are a student of the SaaS industry, and/or are evaluating if your current pricing model is optimized for your customers and your company's financial performance - this episode is chalked full of unique insights and thought-provoking commentary from Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike

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Brand vs Demand: Why B2B Marketing Is Stuck in a Measurement Trap

In this episode of The Metrics Brothers, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike tackle one of the most persistent and controversial questions in B2B marketing: Brand vs. Demand.

The discussion is grounded in new data from the 2026 B2B Brand vs Demand Benchmark Report. While most marketing teams say they believe brand and demand are complementary, the numbers tell a more complicated story.

Today’s reality?

Marketing budgets are still heavily skewed toward short-term demand generation, with roughly 70% of spend allocated to demand and only ~25% to brand. Yet when asked how they want to invest, marketing leaders overwhelmingly say they’d prefer a much more balanced future, closer to 50% demand and 40% brand.

So why the disconnect?

Ray and Dave dig into the root cause: measurement.

Demand generation is tied to metrics CFOs understand like pipeline dollars, opportunities, and ARR. Brand, on the other hand, is still largely measured using proxy metrics like website traffic and awareness, leaving many executives unable to confidently link brand investments to revenue outcomes. Only 28% of companies say they can directly tie brand activity to pipeline, and when budgets are cut, brand is sacrificed five times more often than demand.

The episode also explores:

• Why performance marketing struggles are pushing CMOs back toward brand
• The growing inefficiency of demand spend aimed at “future buyers”
• How much of the “demand” budget is effectively unmeasured brand spend
• The dangerous gap between belief in brand and proof of impact
• Why AEO, AI search, and LLM visibility will make brand ROI even harder and more urgent to measure

Ray and Dave don’t just highlight the findings, they discuss the reality of Chief Marketing Officers making the Brand vs Demand budget allocation trade-offs.

One key takeaway? Until brand investments can be credibly connected to pipeline efficiency, win rates, and ARR, it will remain more a faith-based investment instead of a financial one the CFOs understand.

If you’re a CMO trying to defend brand spend, or a CFO trying to understand where marketing dollars truly drive growth, this episode is required listening.

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Common practice is to measure Sales and Marketing expenses as a percentage of revenue, which in the SaaS industry ranges between 20% - 60% based upon stage, growth and efficiency. CAC and Growth discuss an alternative metric which measures the ratio between Sales expenses and Marketing expenses, known as the Sales/Marketing Expense Ratio.

During this episode topics discussed include:

• Sales and Marketing expense as percentage of revenue benchmarks
• Sales and Marketing expense ratio - value and insights
• What a 2:1 Sales and Marketing expense ratio means
• What drives a changing Sales and Marketing expense ratio
• Customer Acquisition Cost Efficiency metric - CAC Ratio vs S&M Expense Ratio

If you are interested in measuring the allocation of the GTM budget between Sales and Marketing, this is a great episode and listen.

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The Sales Velocity metric calculation formula is (win rate x average contract value x # opportunities)/ average sales cycle length. The resultant Sales Velocity metrics highlights the amount of new bookings a Sales team can deliver per day....one key question about Sales Velocity is " is this a metric to help understand sales capacity, sales effectiveness or sales efficiency?

Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike break down Sales Velocity in this episode covering key topics including:

• Sales Velocity Calculation
• Sales Velocity Benefits
• Which input variables to focus on first
• Four Approaches to Increase Sales Velocity

If you have a sales team, lead a sales team or are involved in how sales performance impacts financial goals, this episode provides several key "operator insights" on how to use the Sales Velocity metric and ideas on how to improve Sales Velocity!

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Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss the latest revenue growth trends and the related metrics driving the growth as highlighted in GONGs 2025 State of Revenue Growth Report. Topics discussed include:

• 2024 Growth Rates
• Sales Velocity Trends including Win Rates, Sales Cycle Length and ACV
• AI Adoption
• Top Growth Initiatives
• SaaS Magic Number trends

If you are responsible for the GTM and Revenue growth teams in your SaaS company, or just interested in the latest Sales benchmarks - this episode in another great listen!

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Implied ARR is the SaaS metric used to convert GAAP revenue for public SaaS companies into an equivalent to Annual Recurring Revenue (ARR) used by investors and private SaaS companies. Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss the what, why and how behind Implied ARR.

During this episode CAC and Growth discuss multiple Implied ARR topics including:

• Implied ARR Calculation Formula
• Why Investors Calculate Implied ARR
• SaaS Metrics that use Implied ARR
• Challenges with Implied ARR
• Implied ARR versus Trailing Twelve Month Revenue

If you are interested in how public SaaS companies analysts use Implied ARR, and what the differences are between private SaaS companies ARR and public SaaS companies Implied ARR this is another great listen!

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Max Schireson and Jason Mendel, from Battery Ventures recently published an article on Managing and Measuring R&D spend including key metrics from the DORA and SPACE frameworks and they also introduced their own 5 step R&D measurement framework including:

• Allocate top down
• Break R&D into granular buckets (not a lump sum)
• Listen to product-adjacent teams that are customer-facing
• Be deliberate about measuring success of R&D projects
• Hold the full team accountable

The article also includes benchmarks from Battery Ventures portfolio company, LinearB.

If you are interesting in best practices on measuring R&D productivity, this episode is a great listen!

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