Explorez tous les épisodes du podcast the Informed Simplicity podcast

It’s way too common for therapists to feel confused and frustrated with their model. Many counselors feel like their models work for some but feel hopeless with certain clients. Worst of all is when therapists feel like a "rent-a-friend" instead of a catalyst for change.

I’m Dr. Jordan Harris, and I help therapists move from "lost" to "confident" by mastering the meta-skills of clinical excellence. My approach isn't about learning another model—it’s about knowing when and how to use the tools you already have to create deeper, more transformative emotional encounters.

In my trainings, we focus on four key pillars:

• Motivation: Working with (not against) client resistance.

• Persuasion: Engaging clients so they show up hopeful and ready.

• Experiencing: Moving past surface-level talk into deep emotional work.

• Body Language: Reading non-verbal cues for true clinical attunement.

🚀 Take your practice to the next level: Join my 6-month Clinical Excellence Class or attend a Deliberate Practice workshop. 🔗 Learn more and sign up here:

Newsletter: https://www.jordanthecounselor.com/subscribe

Trainings: https://www.jordanthecounselor.com/clinical-excellence

It’s way too common for therapists to feel confused and frustrated with their model. Many counselors feel like their models work for some but feel hopeless with certain clients. Worst of all is when therapists feel like a "rent-a-friend" instead of a catalyst for change.

I’m Dr. Jordan Harris, and I help therapists move from "lost" to "confident" by mastering the meta-skills of clinical excellence. My approach isn't about learning another model—it’s about knowing when and how to use the tools you already have to create deeper, more transformative emotional encounters.

In my trainings, we focus on four key pillars:

• Motivation: Working with (not against) client resistance.

• Persuasion: Engaging clients so they show up hopeful and ready.

• Experiencing: Moving past surface-level talk into deep emotional work.

• Body Language: Reading non-verbal cues for true clinical attunement.

🚀 Take your practice to the next level: Join my 6-month Clinical Excellence Class or attend a Deliberate Practice workshop. 🔗 Learn more and sign up here:

Newsletter: https://www.jordanthecounselor.com/subscribe

Trainings: https://www.jordanthecounselor.com/clinical-excellence

It’s waaayyyyy too common for therapists to feel confused and frustrated with their model. Many counselors feel like their models work for some but feel hopeless with certain clients. Worst of all is when therapists feel like a "rent-a-friend" instead of a catalyst for change.

I’m Dr. Jordan Harris, and I help therapists move from "lost" to "confident" by mastering the meta-skills of clinical excellence. My approach isn't about learning another model—it’s about knowing when and how to use the tools you already have to create deeper, more transformative emotional encounters.

In my trainings, we focus on four key pillars:

• Motivation: Working with (not against) client resistance.

• Persuasion: Engaging clients so they show up hopeful and ready.

• Experiencing: Moving past surface-level talk into deep emotional work.

• Body Language: Reading non-verbal cues for true clinical attunement.

🚀 Take your practice to the next level: Join my 6-month Clinical Excellence Class or attend a Deliberate Practice workshop. 🔗 Learn more and sign up here:

Newsletter: https://www.jordanthecounselor.com/subscribe

Trainings: https://www.jordanthecounselor.com/clinical-excellence

It’s way too common for therapists to feel confused and frustrated with their model. Many counselors feel like their models work for some but feel hopeless with certain clients. Worst of all is when therapists feel like a "rent-a-friend" instead of a catalyst for change.

I’m Dr. Jordan Harris, and I help therapists move from "lost" to "confident" by mastering the meta-skills of clinical excellence. My approach isn't about learning another model—it’s about knowing when and how to use the tools you already have to create deeper, more transformative emotional encounters.

In my trainings, we focus on four key pillars:

• Motivation: Working with (not against) client resistance.

• Persuasion: Engaging clients so they show up hopeful and ready.

• Experiencing: Moving past surface-level talk into deep emotional work.

• Body Language: Reading non-verbal cues for true clinical attunement.

🚀 Take your practice to the next level: Join my 6-month Clinical Excellence Class or attend a Deliberate Practice workshop. 🔗 Learn more and sign up here:

Newsletter: https://www.jordanthecounselor.com/subscribe

Trainings: https://www.jordanthecounselor.com/clinical-excellence

Dr. Antonio Pascual-Leone is an expert on change. He's spent over a 10 years studying how change happens across different therapy models.

Turns out there are only 5 types of changes.

1. Down regulation

2. Emotional awareness

3. Deeping emotion to make new meaning,

4. Changing emotion and

5. Cognitive reframing.

Therapists often get stuck when clients need one type of change (i.e. emotional awareness) but a therapist is using a model which specializes in another type of change (ie cognitive reframing).

In this interview we discuss the 5 types of change, talk about when to use them, and more importantly when NOT to use them.

Jordan Harris, Ph.D., LMFT-S, LPC-S, received his Doctor of Philosophy in Marriage and Family Therapy from the University of Louisiana Monroe. He is a licensed professional counselor and a licensed marriage and family therapist in the state of Arkansas, USA. In his clinical work, he enjoys working with couples. He also runs a blog on deliberate practice for therapists and counselors at Jordanthecounselor.com You can find him on linkedIn at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jordan-harris-lpc-s-lmft-s-418412301/

Antonio Pascual-Leone is a clinician psychologist and full professor in Psychology at University of Windsor, Canada, as well as an honorary professor of Psychiatry at the University of Lausanne, Switzerland. Regarded as a world expert on emotion change, he has published seminal contributions to psychotherapy theory and research. His books include the recently released "Principles of Emotion" (APA, 2026), which has been praised as a contemporary classic, as well as "Emotion Focused Therapy for Complex Trauma" (APA, 2nd ed. 2023). His work is recognized by career awards from the Society for Exploration of Psychotherapy Integration (2009) and Society for Psychotherapy Research (2014), as well as publication awards from American Psychological Association (2010) and the Society for the Research and Treatment of Personality Disorder (2016). A certified trainer in Emotion-focused Therapy, he has delivered over 50 clinical workshops in over a dozen countries. His TEDx talk on resolving relational trauma has been viewed over 6.4 million times. He has received awards for teaching and mentorship (2016; 2018; 2024), for his approach to psychotherapy training. Dr. Pascual-Leone maintains a private practice, providing therapy to individuals and couples.

It’s way too common for therapists to feel confused and frustrated with their model. Many counselors feel like their models work for some but feel hopeless with certain clients. Worst of all is when therapists feel like a "rent-a-friend" instead of a catalyst for change.

I’m Dr. Jordan Harris, and I help therapists move from "lost" to "confident" by mastering the meta-skills of clinical excellence. My approach isn't about learning another model—it’s about knowing when and how to use the tools you already have to create deeper, more transformative emotional encounters.

In my trainings, we focus on four key pillars:

• Motivation: Working with (not against) client resistance.

• Persuasion: Engaging clients so they show up hopeful and ready.

• Experiencing: Moving past surface-level talk into deep emotional work.

• Body Language: Reading non-verbal cues for true clinical attunement.

🚀 Take your practice to the next level: Join my 6-month Clinical Excellence Class or attend a Deliberate Practice workshop. 🔗 Learn more and sign up here:

Newsletter: https://www.jordanthecounselor.com/subscribe

Trainings: https://www.jordanthecounselor.com/clinical-excellence

You can find my upcoming trainings here ->jordanthecounselor.com/clinical-excellence

You can learn more about Tori Olds here -> Website: toriolds.com/ Youtube: youtube.com/c/DrToriOlds 

Dr. Tori Olds Tori Olds, PHD is a licensed psychologist who has been studying experiential therapies for over twenty-five years. She specializes in the integration of experiential approaches to therapy and leads seven international training groups on this topic each week. She has a passion for translating complex psychology concepts for the public, which she does through her YouTube channel and other speaking engagements.

Jordan Harris Jordan Harris, Ph.D., LMFT-S, LPC-S, received his Doctor of Philosophy in Marriage and Family Therapy from the University of Louisiana Monroe. He is a licensed professional counselor and a licensed marriage and family therapist in the state of Arkansas, USA. In his clinical work, he enjoys working with couples. 

You can find my upcoming trainings here ->jordanthecounselor.com/clinical-excellence

You can learn more about Tori Olds here -> Website: toriolds.com/ Youtube: youtube.com/c/DrToriOlds 

Dr. Tori Olds Tori Olds, PHD is a licensed psychologist who has been studying experiential therapies for over twenty-five years. She specializes in the integration of experiential approaches to therapy and leads seven international training groups on this topic each week. She has a passion for translating complex psychology concepts for the public, which she does through her YouTube channel and other speaking engagements.

Jordan Harris Jordan Harris, Ph.D., LMFT-S, LPC-S, received his Doctor of Philosophy in Marriage and Family Therapy from the University of Louisiana Monroe. He is a licensed professional counselor and a licensed marriage and family therapist in the state of Arkansas, USA. In his clinical work, he enjoys working with couples. 

You can find my upcoming trainings here ->jordanthecounselor.com/clinical-excellence

You can learn more about Tori Olds here -> Website: toriolds.com/ Youtube: youtube.com/c/DrToriOlds 

Dr. Tori Olds Tori Olds, PHD is a licensed psychologist who has been studying experiential therapies for over twenty-five years. She specializes in the integration of experiential approaches to therapy and leads seven international training groups on this topic each week. She has a passion for translating complex psychology concepts for the public, which she does through her YouTube channel and other speaking engagements.

Jordan Harris Jordan Harris, Ph.D., LMFT-S, LPC-S, received his Doctor of Philosophy in Marriage and Family Therapy from the University of Louisiana Monroe. He is a licensed professional counselor and a licensed marriage and family therapist in the state of Arkansas, USA. In his clinical work, he enjoys working with couples. 

You can find my upcoming trainings here ->jordanthecounselor.com/clinical-excellence

You can learn more about Tori Olds here -> Website: toriolds.com/ Youtube: youtube.com/c/DrToriOlds 

Dr. Tori Olds Tori Olds, PHD is a licensed psychologist who has been studying experiential therapies for over twenty-five years. She specializes in the integration of experiential approaches to therapy and leads seven international training groups on this topic each week. She has a passion for translating complex psychology concepts for the public, which she does through her YouTube channel and other speaking engagements.

Jordan Harris Jordan Harris, Ph.D., LMFT-S, LPC-S, received his Doctor of Philosophy in Marriage and Family Therapy from the University of Louisiana Monroe. He is a licensed professional counselor and a licensed marriage and family therapist in the state of Arkansas, USA. In his clinical work, he enjoys working with couples. 

You can find my upcoming trainings here ->jordanthecounselor.com/clinical-excellence

You can learn more about Tori Olds here -> Website: toriolds.com/ Youtube: youtube.com/c/DrToriOlds 

Dr. Tori Olds Tori Olds, PHD is a licensed psychologist who has been studying experiential therapies for over twenty-five years. She specializes in the integration of experiential approaches to therapy and leads seven international training groups on this topic each week. She has a passion for translating complex psychology concepts for the public, which she does through her YouTube channel and other speaking engagements.

Jordan Harris Jordan Harris, Ph.D., LMFT-S, LPC-S, received his Doctor of Philosophy in Marriage and Family Therapy from the University of Louisiana Monroe. He is a licensed professional counselor and a licensed marriage and family therapist in the state of Arkansas, USA. In his clinical work, he enjoys working with couples. 

Ever feel like you're missing something in your sessions? The word "resistance" often gets a bad rap, but what if it's actually the key to a therapeutic breakthrough? In this episode, we sit down with researcher Alyssa Di Bartolomeo to explore "process coding"—the science of detecting the subtle cues clients give when therapy is off-track. Discover how to read these critical signals, prevent ruptures, and transform your ability to connect with clients. This is the skill that separates average therapists from master clinicians. Tune in to learn what your clients are really telling you.

 

Contact Alyssa Di Bartolomeo at alyssaad @] yorku.ca; Twitter/X @aadibartolomeo

  Learn more at : Jordanthecounselor.com

The transformative work of Dr. Henny Westra and Alyssa Di Bartolomeo in their paper, "Developing expertise in psychotherapy: The case for process coding as clinical training," represents a significant advancement in therapeutic practice.

They introduce a novel framework called "process coding" to enhance therapists’ skills by using session recordings to better understand and refine therapeutic techniques. This method addresses common issues such as therapists' misremembering interactions, enabling a more accurate and effective review and improvement of their sessions. Their approach promises to dramatically enhance therapists' ability to assist clients by offering a systematic way to analyze therapy tapes, which uncovers subtle dynamics and missed opportunities within sessions.

The importance of their work lies in providing a clear, evidence-based path toward refining therapeutic skills beyond traditional training, shifting the focus from theoretical knowledge to practical, observable outcomes. This innovative method could potentially revolutionize the way therapists train and develop their expertise, ultimately leading to more effective client interventions and outcomes.

 

Links and resources mentioned:

Why tough tactics fail and rapport gets results: Observing Rapport-Based Interpersonal Techniques (ORBIT) to generate useful information from terrorists.

This is the article summarizing the early research Laurence Alison et al conducted on police interrogations. I believe it was in this paper they discuss, “you can’t always make things better, but negative interactions can sure make things worse.”

Conditions for Intuitive Expertise: A Failure to Disagree

This is Gary Klein and Daniel Kahneman’s article on the areas where expertise can develop and the areas where it can’t. My big takeaway was areas with clear and quick feedback are the ones who produce expertise.

The wizards of deception detection - Maureen O'Sullivan and Paul Ekman

One of my favorite articles. O'Sullivan and Ekman show that most people, even trained therapists, just aren't that good at reading different facial expressions.

Meet You in McGinnis Meadows: Lessons in Attunement - Scott Miller and Brooke Mathews

Miller and Mathews discuss her path to becoming an expert therapist. I've not read this in a few years but I remember her learning a lot from her work observing horses.

Contact Dr. Henny Westra at hwestra[ at] yorku.ca

Contact Alyssa Di Bartolomeo alyssaad @] yorku.ca; Twitter/X @aadibartolomeo

  Learn more at : Jordanthecounselor.com        

A few weeks ago I ran into Dr. Albert Cheng of the University of Arkansas. We started talking, and he mentioned he was in the department of education reform. I asked him, "What's one thing about education that you know, that you wish everyone knew?" "Well," he said, "that teacher training, teacher certification, has no relationship to teacher quality. Just because someone has a master's degree doesn't mean they are a better teacher than someone with a bachelor's." I was floored. I knew this happened in the counseling field. Despite what we say, certification in various models doesn't make you a better counselor. But to see the same in education was fascinating. So I had to have him on the podcast. In this interview we talk all about the problems education and how to fix it. Enjoy!   Links mentioned 1) Primer on Teacher Quality: https://www.educationnext.org/in-schools-teacher-quality-matters-most-coleman/ 2) No-Excuses Charters: https://scholarworks.uark.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1047&context=edrepub 3) More No-Excuses Charters: https://futureofchildren.princeton.edu/sites/g/files/toruqf2411/files/resource-links/charter_schools_compiled.pdf 4) AI: https://www.educationnext.org/a-i-in-education-leap-into-new-era-machine-intelligence-carries-risks-challenges-promises/ 5) Albert Cheng himself: https://edre.uark.edu/people/faculty/uid/axc070/name/Albert+A.+Cheng/

Check out more of blog or find this blog post here: https://www.jordanthecounselor.com/blog

Earn CE's by listening to my podcast. Find out more here: Check out more of blog or find this blog post here: https://www.jordanthecounselor.com/polyvagalseries

Allyson Clemmons is a clinical social worker, couples therapist and owner Bridgetown Clinical, a counseling practice specializing in couples therapy and divorce recovery.

In this conversation Allyson and Jordan discuss:

 

• The time freeing benefits of group practice.
• How to run a healthy business.
• How to market for your group practice
• and more..!

You can find Allyson at her clinical website ( bridgetownclinical.com ) or get coaching on building your practice at her therapists facing website ( www.allysonclemmons.com )

  Follow me:

 

Blog: jordanthecounselor.com/

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@InformedSimplicitywithDrJordan

{Note: this podcast and show notes were originally part of an online CE course. That course is no longer available.}

Dr. Jordan Harris interviews Kelly Beins and Leah Dawang about their experiences using polyvagal theory in their practices and working with Unyte.

After this training you will be able to meet the following objectives. 

1. Describe a polyvagal perspective of the autonomic nervous system. 
2. Explain the concept of state "blends".
3. Explain the sequential "pyramid of learning" and how it applies to our central nervous system.

More on Jordan Harris, Ph.D, LMFT-s, LPC-s 

Jordan Harris, holds a Ph.D in Marriage and Family Therapy, works as a subject matter expert for Deliberate Practice in Psychotherapy and maintains a private practice where he sees couples and individuals. 

He's also the co-host ofThe Polyvagal Series, a podcast and online course which explores all the ways stress impacts our physical and mental health from a polyvagal lens. 

More on Unyte

For a professional interested in learning more about Unyte and integrating Dr. Porges' Safe and Sound Protocol into their practice, please visit: https://integratedlistening.com/ 

More on Kelly Beins, BA, BHScOT, OTR/L

Kelly Beins is a seasoned Occupational Therapist with over 28 years of experience, including 18 years with certification in sensory integration. Kelly believes in evidence-informed interventions and is passionate about combining sensory integration and mental health practices. 

Kelly has recently joined Unyte as a strategic clinical consultant where she supports development of clinical use guidelines, provider engagement, and product development. Outside of her role at Unyte, Kelly is growing a global mentorship program to make best-practices more accessible for other sensory OT’s in private practice. 

Kelly specializes in Polyvagal Theory, she is an international speaker, has published two children’s books and was named, Autism Parenting Magazine’s “Top OT” for two consecutive years.

While almost an empty nester, Kelly is a sensory parent herself, which has led to many insightful and unexpected learnings along her professional and personal path. 

More on Leah  Dawang, MSP, Somatic Experiencing® Student — Advanced 

Leah Dawang first joined Unyte as a Program Consultant sharing her passion for the Safe and Sound Protocol with professionals. Today, she serves as Unyte’s Strategic Partnerships Manager, envisioning all members of the helping and healing communities linking arms in Love and transforming the world. 

Leah’s initial career in tech start-ups and event management took a sharp turn when her entire being suffered from the effects of trauma. After traveling the world, attending G42 Leadership Academy and plenty of therapy, Leah rediscovered her love for Love and founded Clear The Way, a coaching practice devoted to guiding others in clearing the effects of trauma that block them from receiving unconditional Love.

She is an SSP provider in the final stages of becoming a Somatic Experiencing practitioner and is passionate about all things that lead to Love including the nervous system, spoken word and important, hard and beautiful conversations.  

Find this blog post here: jordanthecounselor.com/post/imposter-syndrome

 

Find this blog post here: jordanthecounselor.com/post/how-to-become-a-wealthy-therapist

 

1. Vicki Fountain's Interview

2. JL Collins' Interview 

Find this blog post here: jordanthecounselor.com/post/a-deliberate-practice-hero

Find this blog post here: jordanthecounselor.com/post/effective-counseling-13

 

 

Find this blog post and get the free Check List here: jordanthecounselor.com/post/private-practice-2

Find this blog post and get the free Check List here: jordanthecounselor.com/post/supervision

 

Check out more of blog or find this blog post here: https://www.jordanthecounselor.com/private-practice

 

Check out more of blog or find this blog post here: https://www.jordanthecounselor.com/blog

Earn CE's by listening to my podcast. Find out more here: Check out more of blog or find this blog post here: https://www.jordanthecounselor.com/polyvagalseries

Register here : Click me!

Limited to 20 participants!

Registration Closes Sept 21st 11:50pm CST!

Follow the blog here. 

Follow this post here : https://www.jordanthecounselor.com/post/career-advice-counselors

 

Sign up for the training at Jordanthecounselor@gmail.com

Since you're here you might as well earn CEs. Find out how to earn CEs for this course here.

Find us on iTunes here.  

Find us on YouTube here.

 

Since you're here you might as well earn CEs. Find out how to earn CEs for this course here.

Read about Polyvagal Theory and Cytokine's role in inflammation here. 

Read my blogpost about polyvagal theory and the paradox is presents

Listen on YouTube

Listen on iTunes 

Contact me at InformedSimplicity@gmail.com

or on Twitter @jordanharrisphd

P.S. If you enjoyed this episode check out my interview with Deb Dana. She's the clinician taking Polyvagal Theory to the masses. 

Since you're here you might as well earn CEs. Find out how to earn CEs for this course here.

Find out about the ACE study and sexual assault here. 

Find out the book Come as You Are here.

 

PS. If you're interested in learning more about sex and sex therapy check out my episode with Linda Weiner. She's an expert on making sexual touch safe. 

Since you're here you might as well earn CEs. Find out how to earn CEs for this course here.

Find out about Bruce Perry's Neurodevelopmental model here.

 

Since you're here you might as well earn CEs. Find out how to earn CEs for this course here.

You can pick up Dr. Allan Abbass' book here.

Check out more of blog or find this blog post here: https://www.jordanthecounselor.com/blog

Earn CE's by listening to my podcast. Find out more here: Check out more of blog or find this blog post here: https://www.jordanthecounselor.com/polyvagalseries

Check out more of blog or find this blog post here: https://www.jordanthecounselor.com/blog

Earn CE's by listening to my podcast. Find out more here: Check out more of blog or find this blog post here: https://www.jordanthecounselor.com/polyvagalseries

 

Since you're here you might as well earn CEs. Find out how to earn CEs for this course here.

Find the about Newcastle Diet here.

Pick up a copy of Bonnie Kaplan's book on  how nutrition impacts your brain here, or listen to my previous interview with her here. 

 

Check out more of blog or find this blog post here: https://www.jordanthecounselor.com/blog

Since you're here you might as well earn CEs. Find out how to earn CEs for this course here.

Watch this video to find out more about how Heartrate Variability impacts your health. 

You can pick up Dr. Leah Lagos' book here.

 

 

Since you're here you might as well earn CEs. Find out how to earn CEs for this course here.

Find the about Tend and Befriend Theory Here.

If you want an overview of Polyvagal Theory check out this video. It's short and very clear. 

PS. If you enjoyed this episode check episode one of our series here. 

 

 

Since you're here you might as well earn CEs. Find out how to earn CEs for this course here.

Find the Polyvagal Theory whitepaper here.

PS. If you enjoyed this episode check out my previous interview with Julia here. 

 

Find our more about Bonnie here:

Find out more about The Better Brain here:

Contact me at Jordanthecounselor.com

PS. If you enjoyed this episode check out my previous interview with Bonnie here. 

Winn a copy of the book! Contest details. 

1) Go to iTunes.

2) Leave a review.

3) Take a picture of the review.

4) Send me an email at InformedSimplicity@gmail.com with the picture and your address. 

5) I'll pick a random winner by 6/11/2021 who will then be mailed a copy of the book. 

 

 

Find out more about Shari here:

Contact me at Jordanthecounselor.com

PS. If you enjoyed this episode check out this interview with Linda Weiner. She talks about the power of presence in sex therapy. 

 

Contact me at InformedSimplicity@gmail.com

Listen on YouTube

P.S. If you enjoyed this check out my interview with Deb Dana. She's the therapist popularizing Polyvagal Theory.

Follow Jesse here: https://www.multiculturalorientation.com/

Check out his book here: https://www.apa.org/pubs/books/4317453

Learn more about his friend Scott Miller here:   https://www.scottdmiller.com/

Listen on YouTube

Listen on iTunes 

Contact me at InformedSimplicity@gmail.com

or on Twitter @jordanharrisphd

P.S. If you enjoyed this episode check out my interview with Tony Rousimanerrie. He also talks about the micromoves of therapy. 

https://hminnovations.org/meditation-app

Follow Simon here: https://centerhealthyminds.org/about/people/simon-goldberg

Check out the App here: https://hminnovations.org/meditation-app

Listen on YouTube

Listen on iTunes 

Contact me at InformedSimplicity@gmail.com

or on Twitter @jordanharrisphd

P.S. If you enjoyed this episode check out my interview with Tony Rousimanerrie. She's the clinician taking Polyvagal Theory to the masses. 

Listen on YouTube

Listen on iTunes : https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-informed-simplicity-project/id1427537186

Learn more about Deliberate Practice here : https://www.dpfortherapists.com/tonyrousmaniere

Contact me at InformedSimplicity@gmail.com

P.S. If you enjoyed this episode check out my lecture on how to become a master therapist. 

Get the book here.

Find Linda Weiner here. 

Contact me at InformedSimplicity@gmail.com

Listen on YouTube

P.S. If you enjoyed this check out my interview with Peggy Kleinplatz She's another amazing sex therapist.

It's only when we feel free to give up hypervigilance that we can give someone our full attention. That requires us to feel safe.

Contact me at InformedSimplicity@gmail.com

Listen on YouTube

P.S. If you enjoyed this check out my interview with Deb Dana. She's the therapist popularizing Polyvagal Theory.